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diff --git a/44001-0.txt b/44001-0.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..2d224e6 --- /dev/null +++ b/44001-0.txt @@ -0,0 +1,49491 @@ +*** START OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK 44001 *** + +Transcriber's note: A three-page list of Exhibit numbers has been +omitted from this eBook. + + + + + INVESTIGATION OF + THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + HEARINGS + Before the President's Commission + on the Assassination + of President Kennedy + +PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a +Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating +to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the +subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and +S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon +the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine +witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas + +_Volume_ I + + +UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE + +WASHINGTON, D.C. + + +U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 + +For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. +Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 + + + + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE + ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY + + + CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_ + + SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL + SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER + REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS + REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD + MR. ALLEN W. DULLES + MR. JOHN J. McCLOY + + + J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_ + + + _Assistant Counsel_ + + FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS + JOSEPH A. BALL + DAVID W. BELIN + WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. + MELVIN ARON EISENBERG + BURT W. GRIFFIN + LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. + ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. + WESLEY J. LIEBELER + NORMAN REDLICH + W. DAVID SLAWSON + ARLEN SPECTER + SAMUEL A. STERN + HOWARD P. WILLENS[A] + +[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the +Department of Justice. + + + _Staff Members_ + + PHILLIP BARSON + EDWARD A. CONROY + JOHN HART ELY + ALFRED GOLDBERG + MURRAY J. LAULICHT + ARTHUR MARMOR + RICHARD M. MOSK + JOHN J. O'BRIEN + STUART POLLAK + ALFREDDA SCOBEY + CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. + + +Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found +in the Commission's _Report_. + + + + +Foreword + + +On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson signed Executive +Order No. 11130, creating a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate and +report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late +President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man +charged with the assassination." By the same Executive order, the +President appointed seven Commissioners: Earl Warren, Chief Justice of +the United States; Richard B. Russell, Democratic Senator from Georgia; +John Sherman Cooper, Republican Senator from Kentucky; Hale Boggs, +Democratic Congressman from Louisiana and House Majority Whip; Gerald +R. Ford, Republican Congressman from Michigan; Allen W. Dulles, former +Director of the Central Intelligence Agency; and John J. McCloy, former +High Commissioner of Germany. The President designated Chief Justice +Warren as the Commission's Chairman. The findings of the Commission, +based on an examination of all the facts, are set forth in the +separate volume entitled "Report of the President's Commission on the +Assassination of President Kennedy." + +An essential part of the investigation conducted by this Commission +has been the securing of sworn testimony from witnesses possessing +information relevant to the inquiry. This testimony has been taken +under the authority of Senate Joint Resolution 137 (88th Cong., 1st +sess.), enacted by Congress on December 13, 1963, which conferred +upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, +examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas. Under the +procedures adopted by the Commission, some witnesses have appeared +before members of the Commission, others have been questioned under +oath on depositions by members of the staff, and others have provided +affidavits to the Commission. Beginning with its first witness on +February 3, 1964, the Commission under these procedures took the +testimony of approximately 550 witnesses and received more than 3,100 +exhibits into evidence. + +The testimony and exhibits obtained by the Commission are printed in +this and the succeeding volumes, organized in the following order: + + (1) Testimony before members of the Commission, in the order in + which it was taken. + + (2) Testimony by sworn deposition or affidavit, grouped into + four general subject categories; the medical attention given to + the President and the Governor, identification of the assassin + of President Kennedy, the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, and + the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald by Jack L. Ruby on November + 24, 1963. + + (3) Exhibits introduced in connection with the testimony before + the Commission in numerical order. + + (4) Exhibits introduced in connection with sworn depositions + and affidavits, grouped alphabetically by name of witness. + + (5) Other exhibits introduced before the Commission in + numerical order. + +The transcripts of this testimony, prepared by qualified court +reporters, were reviewed by members of the Commission staff and, in +most instances, by the witness concerned. Editing of the transcript +prior to printing in these volumes was confined to correction of +stenographic errors and punctuation, and minor changes designed to +improve the clarity and accuracy of the testimony. In the few cases +indicated, brief deletions have been made of material which might be +considered in poor taste and is clearly irrelevant to any facet of +the Commission's investigation. All the original transcripts prepared +by the court reporters, of course, have been preserved and will be +available for inspection under the same rules and regulations which +will apply to all records of this Commission. + +Each volume contains a brief preface discussing the contents of the +volume. In addition, each volume of testimony contains a table of +contents with the names of the witnesses whose testimony appears in the +volume, and the numbers of the exhibits introduced in connection with +that testimony. Each volume of exhibits contains a table of contents +with short descriptions of the exhibits reproduced in the volume. +Volume XV contains a name index setting forth all references to persons +(other than Lee Harvey Oswald) appearing in the Hearings volumes and +an index setting forth all references to Commission exhibits and +Deposition exhibits in these volumes. + + + + +Preface + + +The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume I: Mrs. +Marina Oswald, the widow of Lee Harvey Oswald; Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, +Oswald's mother; Robert Edward Lee Oswald, Oswald's brother; and James +Herbert Martin, who acted for a brief period as Mrs. Marina Oswald's +business manager. + + + + +Contents + + + Page + Foreword v + + Preface vii + + Testimony of-- + Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald 1 + Mrs. Marguerite Oswald 126 + Robert Edward Lee Oswald 264 + James Herbert Martin 469 + + +COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED + + +Transcriber's Note: Three pages of Exhibit numbers have been omitted +from this eBook. + + + + +Hearings Before the President's Commission + +on the + +Assassination of President Kennedy + + + + +_Monday, February 3, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD + +The President's Commission met at 10:35 a.m. on February 3, 1964, at +200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman +Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and +Allen W. Dulles, members. + +Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; John M. Thorne, +attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; William D. Krimer and Leon I. +Gopadze, interpreters. + + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, did you have a good trip here? + +The Commission will come to order, and at this time, I will make +a short statement for the purpose of the meeting. A copy of this +statement has been given to counsel for Mrs. Oswald, but for the +record, I should like to read it. + +On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive +Order No. 11130 appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate, +and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late +President John F. Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of the man +charged with the assassination." + +On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137 which +authorizes the Commission, or any member of the Commission or any agent +or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose to administer +oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, excuse me, the interpreter---- + +The CHAIRMAN. I understood they have a copy and if they want to at the +end he may do that. + +On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing +each member of the Commission and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, +to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive +evidence concerning any matter under investigation by the Commission. + +The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mrs. Marina +Oswald, the widow of Lee Harvey Oswald who, prior to his death, +was charged with the assassination of President Kennedy. Since the +Commission is inquiring fully into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald +and those associated with him, it is the intention of the Commission +to ask Mrs. Marina Oswald questions concerning Lee Harvey Oswald and +any and all matters relating to the assassination. The Commission +also intends to ask Mrs. Marina Oswald questions relating to the +assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of +Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mrs. Marina Oswald has been furnished with a copy of this statement +and a copy of the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking +of testimony or the production of evidence. Mrs. Marina Oswald has +also been furnished with a copy of Executive Order No. 11130 and +Congressional Resolution S.J. Res. 137 which set forth the general +scope of the Commission's inquiry and its authority for the examining +witnesses and the receiving of evidence. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, do you have an attorney, a lawyer? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +The CHAIRMAN. And your lawyer is Mr. Thorne? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +The CHAIRMAN. He is the only lawyer you wish to represent you here? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +The CHAIRMAN. And may I ask you, Mr. Thorne, if you have received a +copy of this? + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, that is the copy he received there. + +Mr. THORNE. I have read a copy of it, Mr. Chief Justice, yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions about it? + +Mr. THORNE. There are no questions. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well. + +Very well, we will proceed to swear Mrs. Oswald as a witness. + +Will you please rise, Mrs. Oswald. + +(The Chairman administered the oath to the witness, Mrs. Oswald, +through the interpreter.) + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Reporter, will you rise, please, and be sworn. + +(The Chairman administered the oath to the interpreter and the +stenotype reporter, following which all questions propounded to the +witness and her answers thereto, were duly translated through the +interpreter.) + +The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Thorne and Mrs. Oswald, I want to say to you +that we want to see that Mrs. Oswald's rights are protected in every +manner and you are entitled to converse with her at any time that +you desire. You are entitled to give her any advice that you want, +either openly or in private; if you feel that her rights are not being +protected you are entitled to object to the Commission and have a +ruling upon it, and at the conclusion of her testimony if you have any +questions that you would like to ask her in verification of what she +has said you may feel free to ask them. + +After her testimony has been completed, a copy will be furnished to you +so that if there are any errors, corrections or omissions you may call +it to our attention, is that satisfactory to you? + +Mr. THORNE. Very satisfactory, Mr. Chairman. + +The CHAIRMAN. I might say also to her we propose to ask her questions +for about 1 hour, and then take a short recess for her refreshment, and +then we will convene again until about 12:30. At 12:30 we will recess +until 2 o'clock, and then we may take her to her hotel where she can +see her baby and have a little rest, and we will return at 2 o'clock, +and we will take evidence until about 4:30. If at any time otherwise +you should feel tired or feel that you need a rest, you may feel free +to say so and we will take care of it. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. + +The CHAIRMAN. The questions will be asked of you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, +who is the general counsel of the Commission. + +I think now we are ready to proceed, are we not, Mr. Rankin? + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, you be at your ease, and the interpreter will +tell you what I ask and you take your time about your answers. + +Will you state your name, please? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Marina, my name is Marina Nikolaevna Oswald. My maiden +name was Prussakova. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Oswald? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At the present time I live in Dallas. + +Mr. RANKIN. And where in Dallas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Thorne knows my address. + +Mr. THORNE. 11125 Ferrar Street, Dallas, Dallas County, Tex. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you live with friends there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I live with Mr. Jim Martin and his family. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you have a family? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have two children, two girls, June will be 2 years old +in February, and Rachel is 3 months old. + +Mr. RANKIN. Are you the widow of the late Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, did you write in Russian a story of your +experiences in the United States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I have. I think that you are familiar with it. + +Mr. RANKIN. You furnished it to the Commission, did you not, or a copy +of it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe for the Commission how you prepared this +document in Russian that you furnished to us? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I wrote this document not specifically for this +Commission, but merely for myself. Perhaps there are, therefore, not +enough facts for your purpose in that document. This is the story of my +life from the time I met him in Minsk up to the very last days. + +Mr. RANKIN. And by "him" who did you mean? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any assistance in preparing this document in +Russian? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, no one. + +Mr. RANKIN. Are all the statements in that document true insofar as you +know? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Since your husband's death and even back to the time of the +assassination of President Kennedy, you have had a number of interviews +with people from the Secret Service and the FBI, have you not? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I did. + +Mr. RANKIN. We have a record of more than 46 such interviews, and I +assume you cannot remember the exact number or all that was said in +those interviews, is that true? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know how many there were. + +Mr. RANKIN. As far as you can recall now, do you know of anything that +is not true in those interviews that you would like to correct or add +to? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I would like to correct some things because not +everything was true. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. It is not just that it wasn't true, but not quite exact. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall some of the information that you gave in +those interviews that was incorrect that you would like to correct now? +Will you tell us that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At the present time, I can't remember any specific +instance, but perhaps in the course of your questioning if it comes up +I will say so. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date that you arrived in the United +States with your husband, Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. OSWALD. On the 13th of June, 1962--I am not quite certain as to +the year--'61 or '62, I think '62. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did you come to this country? + +Mrs. OSWALD. From Moscow via Poland, Germany, and Holland we came to +Amsterdam by train. And from Amsterdam to New York by ship, and New +York to Dallas by air. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the name of the ship on which you came? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was the SS _Rotterdam_ but I am not sure. + +Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day did you arrive in New York? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It was--about noon or 1 p.m., thereabouts. It is hard to +remember the exact time. + +Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay in New York at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. We stayed that evening and the next 24 hours in a hotel in +New York, and then we left the following day by air. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the name of the hotel where you stayed? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know the name of the hotel but it is in the Times +Square area, not far from the publishing offices of the New York Times. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you do during your stay in New York? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That evening we just walked around the city to take a look +at it. In the morning I remained in the hotel while Lee left in order +to arrange for tickets, and so forth. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you visit anyone or have visitors at your hotel during +that period? + +Mrs. OSWALD. We didn't have any visitors but I remember that with Lee +we visited some kind of an office, on official business, perhaps it had +something to do with immigration or with the tickets. Lee spoke to them +in English and I didn't understand it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Would that be a Travelers' Aid Bureau or Red Cross? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not you or your husband received any +financial assistance for the trip to Texas at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know exactly where Lee got the money, but he said +that his brother Robert had given him the money. But the money for the +trip from the Soviet Union to New York was given to us by the American +Embassy in Moscow. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what time of the day you left on the flight +to Texas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think that by about 5 p.m. we were already in Texas. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you go to Dallas or Fort Worth at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In Dallas we were met by the brother, Robert, he lived in +Fort Worth, and he took us from Dallas to Fort Worth and we stopped at +the house. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who else stayed at Robert's house at that time besides your +family? + +Mrs. OSWALD. His family and no one else. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did his family consist of at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He and his wife and two children, a boy and a girl. + +Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay at Robert's? + +Mrs. OSWALD. About 1 to 1-1/2 months--perhaps longer, but no longer +than 2 months. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were your relations and your husband's with Robert pleasant +at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they were very good. His brother's relationship to us +was very good. + +Mr. RANKIN. Would you briefly describe what you did during that time +when you were at Robert's? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The first time we got there we were, of course, resting +for about a week, and I was busy, of course, with my little girl who +was then very little. And in my free time, of course, I helped in the +household. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband do anything around the house or did he +seek work right away? + +Mrs. OSWALD. For about a week he was merely talking and took a trip to +the library. That is it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Then did he seek work in Fort Worth? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And when did he find his first job there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. While we were with Robert. It seems it was at the end of +the second month that Lee found work. But at this time I don't remember +the date exactly but his mother who lived in Fort Worth at that time +rented a room and she proposed that we spend some time with her, that +we live with her for some time. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss with your husband this proposal of your +mother-in-law to have you live with her? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, she made the proposal to my husband, not to me. Of +course, I found out about it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you and he have any discussion about it after you found +out about it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. + +Mr. RANKIN. You recall that discussion? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I only remember the fact. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he find work after you left Robert's then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. You did move to be with your mother-in-law, lived with her +for a time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, about 3 weeks. And then after 3 weeks Lee did not +want to live with her any more and he rented an apartment. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the reason why he did not want to live there +any more? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It seemed peculiar to me and didn't want to believe it but +he did not love his mother, she was not quite a normal woman. Now, I +know this for sure. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that at the time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He talked about it but since he spoke in English to his +mother, I didn't understand it. There were quite a few scenes when +he would return from work he didn't want to talk to her. Perhaps she +thought I was the reason for the fact that Lee did not want to talk to +her. And, of course, for a mother this is painful and I told him that +he should be more attentive to his mother but he did not change. I +think that one of the reasons for this was that she talked a great deal +about how much she had done to enable Lee to return from Russia, and +Lee felt that he had done most of--the greatest effort in that respect +and didn't want to discuss it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where did he find work at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Of course, if I had been told now I would have remembered +it because I have learned some English but at that time I didn't know, +but Lee told me that it wasn't far from Mercedes Street where we lived, +and it was really common labor connected with some kind of metal work, +something for buildings. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say whether he enjoyed that work? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't like it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how long he stayed at that job? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know but it seemed to me that he worked there for +about 3 or 4 months. Perhaps longer. Dates are one of my problems. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he left that job voluntarily or was +discharged? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that he had been discharged but I don't know +why. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you left the mother-in-law's house where did you go? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have already said that we moved to Mercedes Street. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have an apartment there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, we rented an apartment in a duplex. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the address on Mercedes Street? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't remember the exact number. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe the apartment, how many rooms it had? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Living room, kitchen, bath, and one bedroom. + +Mr. RANKIN. This was the first time since you had come to this country +then that you had an opportunity to have a home of your own, is that +right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, we had our own home in Russia. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband work a full day at that time on this job? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sometimes he even worked on Saturdays. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you do when he came home, did he help you with +housework? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He frequently went to a library. He read a great deal. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any of the books that he read at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I only know that they were books more of a historical +nature rather than fiction or literature. + +Mr. RANKIN. In your story in Russian you relate the fact that he read a +great deal of the time. Could you describe to the Commission just how +that was? Did he go off by himself to read or how did he handle that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He would bring a book from a library, sit in the living +room and read. I was busy with housework, and that is the way it +happened. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have differences between you about the time that he +spent reading rather than devoting it to you or the other members of +the family? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. We did have quarrels about his relationship to his +mother, the fact that he didn't want to change his relationship to his +mother. I know that he read so much that when we lived in New Orleans +he used to read sometimes all night long and in order not to disturb me +he would be sitting in the bathroom for several hours reading. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your quarrels start at that time when you were at +Mercedes Street the first time. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, we didn't have many quarrels. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you were at Mercedes Street did you have Robert visit +you or did you visit him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, he came to us sometimes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall seeing any guns at Mercedes Street while you +were there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your mother-in-law come to see you at Mercedes Street? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe the relationship between your husband and +your mother-in-law while he was at Mercedes Street? + +Mrs. OSWALD. She did not want us to move away to Mercedes Street, and +Lee did not want to remain with her and did not even want her to visit +us after that. Lee did not want her to know the address to which we +were moving and Robert helped us in the move. I felt very sorry for +her. Sometime after that she visited us while Lee was at work and I was +quite surprised wondering about how she found out our address. And then +we had a quarrel because he said to me, "Why did you open the door for +her, I don't want her to come here any more." + +Mr. RANKIN. During this period did your husband spend much time with +the baby, June? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He loved children very much. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you obtain a television set at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee wanted to buy a television set on credit. He then +returned it. Should I speak a little louder? + +Mr. RANKIN. Did Robert help any with the money or just in guaranteeing +the payments? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he only guaranteed the payments. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how much the television set cost? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. So far as you know it was paid for out of your husband's +income? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you still at Mercedes Street when he lost his job with +the welding company? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he try to find another job in Fort Worth then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how much he looked for jobs before he found one +then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He looked for work for some time but he could not find +it and then some Russian friends of ours helped him find some work in +Dallas. + +Mr. RANKIN. How long was he out of work? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me it was about 2 weeks; hard to remember, +perhaps that long. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where did he find work in Dallas, do you remember the name? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I know it was some kind of a printing company which +prepares photographs for newspapers. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was he working with the photographic department of that +company? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was he an apprentice in that work trying to learn it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, at first he was an apprentice and later he worked. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what his income was when he was working for the +welding company? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was about $200 a month, I don't know. I know it +was a dollar and a quarter an hour. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he work much overtime at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Not too much but sometimes he did work Saturdays. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how much he received as pay at the printing +company? + +Mrs. OSWALD. A dollar forty an hour. + +Mr. RANKIN. How many hours did he work a week, do you recall? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He usually worked until 5 p.m. But sometimes he worked +later, and on Saturdays, too. + +Mr. RANKIN. The ordinary work week at that time was the 5-day week +then, and the Saturdays would be an overtime period? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who were the Russian friends who helped your husband find +this job in Dallas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. George Bouhe. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did this friend and other Russian friends visit you at +Mercedes Street? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. When we lived at Fort Worth we became acquainted with +Peter Gregory, he is a Russian, he lives in Fort Worth and through him +we became acquainted with others. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us insofar as you recall, the friends that +you knew in Fort Worth? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Our first acquaintance was Gregory. Through him I met Gali +Clark, Mrs. Elena Hall. That is all in Fort Worth. And then we met +George Bouhe in Dallas, and Anna Meller, and Anna Ray and Katya Ford. + +Mr. RANKIN. By your answer do you mean that some of those people you +met in Dallas and some in Fort Worth? + +Mrs. OSWALD. George De Mohrenschildt--this was both in Fort Worth and +Dallas, the names of my recital but they were well acquainted with each +other, even though some lived in Dallas and some lived in Fort Worth. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you please sort them out for us and tell us those you +met in Dallas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. You mean by the question, who out of these Russians lives +in Dallas? + +Mr. RANKIN. Or which ones you met in Dallas as distinguished from those +you had already met in Fort Worth? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In Fort Worth I met the people from Dallas. There was +George Bouhe, George De Mohrenschildt--no. Anna Meller and George Bouhe +only, they were from Dallas, but I met them in Fort Worth. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did these friends visit you at your home in Fort Worth? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sometimes they came to visit us when they were in +Dallas, they came to us. Sometimes they made a special trip to come and +see us. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever visit them in their homes? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, when we lived in Fort Worth we went to Dallas several +times to visit them. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you made these visits did you go to spend an evening +or a considerable part of the time or were they short visits? Can you +describe that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. We used to come early in the morning and leave at night. +We would spend the entire day with them. We went there by bus. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have an automobile of your own at any time during +this period? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did any of these people have meals in your home when they +visited you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. They usually brought--they usually came for short +visits and they brought their own favorite vegetables such as +cucumbers, George liked cucumbers. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you moved to Dallas, where did you live the first time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I did not move to Dallas together with Lee. Lee went to +Dallas when he found the job, and I remained in Fort Worth and lived +with Elena Hall. + +Mr. RANKIN. For how long a period did you live with Mrs. Hall? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think that it was about a month and a half. + +Mr. RANKIN. During that month and a half what did your husband do? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He had a job. He was working. He would call me up over the +telephone but how he spent his time, I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know during that month and a half where he lived? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At first, I know that he rented a room in the YMcA but +very shortly thereafter he rented an apartment. But where I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. During that month and a half did he come and see you and +the baby? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, two or three times he came to see us because he had +no car. It was not very easy. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were these trips to see you on the weekends? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. When he came did he also stay at the Hall's? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you were staying at the Hall's did you pay them for +your room and your meals? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. No, she was very friendly toward us and she tried to +help us. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you and your husband do when he came to see you? +Did he spend his time with you there in the home or did you go some +place? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, we didn't go anywhere. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he do any reading there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I remember that it was only a couple of times that he +came for a weekend. Generally, he only came for a very short period of +time, because he would come together with our friends, and they could +not stay very long. + +Mr. RANKIN. When he came during that period did he discuss what he had +been doing in Dallas, his work and other things? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He liked his work very much. + +Mr. RANKIN. After this month and a half did he find a place for you all +to live together? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but it wasn't a problem there to find a place, no +problem there to find a place. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you then move to a home in Dallas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, on Elsbeth, Elsbeth Street in Dallas. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember the number? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did you move your things from Mrs. Hall's to the place +on Elsbeth Street? + +Mrs. OSWALD. A friend who had a car helped us--I don't remember his +name, Taylor, Gary Taylor. + +The CHAIRMAN. Suppose we take a recess now for about 10 minutes to +allow Mrs. Oswald to refresh herself. + +(Short recess.) + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission may be in order. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did that require one or more trips to move your things from +Fort Worth to Dallas when you went to Elsbeth Street? + +Mrs. OSWALD. One trip was enough. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe any guns in your things when you moved? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. What kind of place did you have at Elsbeth Street, was it +rooms or an apartment? + +Mrs. OSWALD. An apartment. + +Mr. RANKIN. How many rooms in the apartment? + +Mrs. OSWALD. One living room, a bedroom, a kitchen, and the bathroom. +It sounds very small for all of you but for us it was quite sufficient. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a telephone there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what rent you paid? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me that it was $60, plus the utilities. + +Mr. RANKIN. That would be $60 a month? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and electricity and gas but the water was free. Sixty +dollars a month including water. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband help you with the housework at that +address? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he always helped. + +Mr. RANKIN. What about his reading habits there, were they the same? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, about the same. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us a little more fully about his reading? Did +he spend several hours each evening in this reading? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any of the books that he read at Elsbeth +Street? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. He had two books, two thick books on the history of +the United States. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband come home for a midday meal? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you go out in the evenings? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where did you go? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes we went shopping to stores, and movies, though +Lee really went to the movies himself. He wanted to take me but I did +not understand English. Then on weekends we would go to a lake not far +away or to a park or to a cafe for some ice cream. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you went to the lake or the park did you take food +with you and have a picnic? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did you get to the lake or the park, by bus or car, or +what means of transportation? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It was only 10 minutes away, 10 minutes walking time from +us. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were either you or your husband taking any schooling at +that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee took English courses or typing courses. + +Mr. RANKIN. During what days of the week were these typing courses? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It was three days a week. I don't remember exactly what +the days were. It seems to me it was 1 day at the beginning of the week +and 2 days at the end of the week that he took these night courses. + +Mr. RANKIN. Would it help you to recall if I suggested they were +Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me that is the way it was. I know it was on +Monday. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what hours of the evening he was supposed to +be at these classes? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It seems that it was from 7 until 9. + +Mr. RANKIN. About what time would he get home from work? + +Mrs. OSWALD. About 5 to 5:30. + +Mr. RANKIN. Then would you eat your evening meal? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. How soon after that would he leave for the class? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee took his courses he generally did not come home +for dinner, usually he didn't. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he practice his typewriting at home at all? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At home, no. But he had a book, a textbook on typing which +he would review when he was at home. + +Mr. RANKIN. How soon after the class was over did he come home +ordinarily? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Nine o'clock. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about friends that he met at these +classes? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. While you were at Elsbeth Street do you recall seeing any +guns in your apartment? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember exhibiting any guns to the De +Mohrenschildt's while you were at Elsbeth Street? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street, perhaps you are confused, this +was on Neely Street. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did you move to Neely Street from the Elsbeth Street +apartment? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In January after the new year. I don't remember exactly. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember why you moved from Elsbeth to Neely Street? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I like it better on Neely Street. We had a porch there and +that was more convenient for the child. + +Mr. RANKIN. What size apartment did you have on Neely Street? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The same type of apartment. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was the only difference the terrace then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, except that it was on the second floor. It was a +second-floor apartment. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was the Elsbeth Street apartment a first-floor apartment? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. What about the rent? Was there a difference in rent between +the two places? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, it was the same rent. It is perhaps even less. It +seems to me it was $55. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any differences with your husband while you +were at Neely Street? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. Well, there are always some reasons for some quarrel +between a husband and wife, not everything is always smooth. + +Mr. RANKIN. I had in mind if there was any violence or any hitting of +you. Did that occur at Neely Street? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. That was on Elsbeth Street. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what brought that about? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Not quite. I am trying to remember. It seems to me that it +was at that time that Lee began to talk about his wanting to return to +Russia. I did not want that and that is why we had quarrels. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have discussions between you about this idea of +returning to Russia? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Lee wanted me to go to Russia. I told him that +that--Lee wanted me to go to Russia, and I told him that if he wanted +me to go then that meant that he didn't love me, and that in that case +what was the idea of coming to the United States in the first place. +Lee would say that it would be better for me if I went to Russia. I did +not know why. I did not know what he had in mind. He said he loved me +but that it would be better for me if I went to Russia, and what he had +in mind I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when he first started to talk about your going +to Russia? + +Mrs. OSWALD. On Elsbeth Street. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember any occasion which you thought caused him +to start to talk that way? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why he started to hit you about that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I think that I know, although at that time I didn't. +I think that he was very nervous and just this somehow relieved his +tension. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe sometime when you thought he changed? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I would say that immediately after coming to the United +States Lee changed. I did not know him as such a man in Russia. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe how you observed these changes and what +they were as you saw them? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He helped me as before, but he became a little more of a +recluse. He did not like my Russian friends and he tried to forbid me +to have anything to do with them. + +He was very irritable, sometimes for a trifle, for a trifling reason. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he did not like your Russian friends? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know why he didn't like them. I didn't understand. +At least that which he said was completely unfounded. He simply said +some stupid or foolish things. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us the stupid things that he said? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, he thought that they were fools for having left +Russia; they were all traitors. I would tell him he was in the same +position being an American in America but there were really no reasons +but just irritation. He said that they all only like money, and +everything is measured by money. It seems to me that perhaps he was +envious of them in the sense they were more prosperous than he was. +When I told him, when I would say that to him he did not like to hear +that. + +Perhaps I shouldn't say these foolish things and I feel kind of +uncomfortable to talk about the foolish things that happened or what he +said foolish things. + +This is one of the reasons why I don't know really the reasons for +these quarrels because sometimes the quarrels were just trifles. It is +just that Lee was very unrestrained and very explosive at that time. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we will ask you to be very frank with us. It +isn't for the purpose of embarrassing you or your husband that we ask +you these things but it might help us to understand and even if you +will tell us the foolish and stupid things it may shed some light on +the problem. You understand that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I understand you are not asking these questions out of +curiosity but for a reason. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband indicate any particular Russian friends +that he disliked more than others? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He liked De Mohrenschildt but he--because he was a strong +person, but only De Mohrenschildt. He did not like Bouhe or Anna Meller. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever tell him you liked these people? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I told him all the time that I liked these people and +that is why he was angry at me and would tell me that I was just like +they were. At one time I left him and went to my friends because he put +me into--put me on the spot by saying, "Well, if you like your friends +so much then go ahead and live with them," and he left me no choice. + +Mr. RANKIN. When was this, Mrs. Oswald? + +Mrs. OSWALD. On Elsbeth Street. + +Mr. RANKIN. How long were you gone from him then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. One week. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he ask you to return? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I took June and I went to Anna Meller, took a cab and +went there. I spent several days with her. Lee didn't know where I was +but he called up and about 2 or 3 days after I came to and we met at De +Mohrenschildt's house and he asked me to return home. I, of course, did +not want a divorce but I told him it would be better to get a divorce +rather than to continue living and quarreling this way. After all this +is only a burden on a man if two people live together and fight. I +simply wanted to show him, too, that I am not a toy. That a woman is a +little more complicated. That you cannot trifle with her. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything at that time about how he should treat +you if you returned? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I told him if he did not change his character, then +it would become impossible to continue living with him. Because if +there should be such quarrels continuously that would be crippling for +the children. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Then he said that it would be--it was very hard for him. +That he could not change. That I must accept him, such as he was. And +he asked me to come back home with him right on that day but he left +feeling bad because I did not go and remained with my friend. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about accepting him as he was? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I told him I was not going to. Of course, such as he was +for me he was good, but I wanted simply for the sake of the family that +he would correct his character. It isn't that I didn't mean to say he +was good for me, I meant to say that I could stand him, but for the +sake of the children I wanted him to improve his behavior. + +Mr. RANKIN. Then did he get in touch with you again? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At that time there was very little room at Anna Meller's +and it was very uncomfortable and I left and went to Katya Ford whose +husband at that time happened to be out of town on business. I spent +several days with Katya Ford but then when her husband returned I did +not want to remain with her. And it was on a Sunday morning then when +I moved over to Anna Ray. Lee called me and said he wanted to see +me, that he had come by bus and he wanted to see me and he came that +evening and he cried and said that he wanted me to return home because +if I did not return he did not want to continue living. He said he +didn't know how to love me in any other way and that he will try to +change. + +Mr. RANKIN. While you were at Mrs. Ford's did she go to the hospital? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I think that you are confused--this was Elena Hall +in Fort Worth, she was ill and went to the hospital. It is not very +interesting to hear all that. Somewhat boring. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the manner in which Lee brought up the idea +of your going to Russia alone? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Quite simply he said it was very hard for him here. That +he could not have a steady job. It would be better for me because I +could work in Russia. That was all. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand when he suggested it that he proposed +that you go and he stay? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Now, I think I know why he had in mind to start his +foolish activity which could harm me but, of course, at that time he +didn't tell me the reason. It is only now that I understand it. At that +time when I would ask him he would get angry because he couldn't tell +me. + +Mr. RANKIN. What would you say to him at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I told him at that time that I am agreeable to going if he +could not live with me. But he kept on repeating that he wanted to live +with me but that it would be better for me, but when I wanted to know +the reason he would not tell me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is there something that you have learned since that caused +you to believe that this suggestion was related to trying to provide +for you or to be sure that you wouldn't be hurt by what he was going to +do? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At that time I didn't know this. I only saw that he was +in such a state that he was struggling and perhaps did not understand +himself. I thought that I was the reason for that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a job then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel that you were getting along on what he was +earning? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you urging him to earn more so that he could provide +more for the family? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. We had enough. + +Mr. RANKIN. You were not complaining about the way you were living? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I think that my friends had thought, and it was also +written in the newspapers that we lived poorly because for Americans +$200 appears to be very little. But I have never lived in any very +luxurious way and, therefore, for me this was quite sufficient. Some of +the others would say, "well here, you don't have a car or don't have +this or that." But for me it was sufficient. Sometimes Lee would tell +me I was just like my friends, that I wanted to have that which they +had. That I preferred them to him because they give me more, but that +is not true. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand when he suggested you return to Russia +that he was proposing to break up your marriage? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that I would go to Russia if he would give me a +divorce, but he did not want to give me a divorce. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say why? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said that if he were to give me a divorce that that +would break everything between us, which he didn't want. That he wanted +to keep me as his wife, but I told him that if he wants to remain in +the United States I want to be free in Russia. + +Mr. RANKIN. During this period did he appear to be more excited and +nervous? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Not particularly, but the later time he was more excited +and more nervous but it was quite a contrast between the way he was in +Russia. + +Mr. RANKIN. By the later time that you just referred to what do you +mean? Can you give us some approximate date? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When we went to Neely Street. + +The CHAIRMAN. I think this is a good time to take our luncheon recess +now. So, we will adjourn until 2 o'clock. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. + +(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +Afternoon Session + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED + + +The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m. + +The CHAIRMAN. All right. Let us proceed. + +(The Chairman administered the oath to Alvin I. Mills, Stenotype +Reporter.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, do you have the last questions? + +In the future, would you do that, so we can refresh the witness about +the last couple of questions on her testimony? I think it will make it +easier for her, if she doesn't have to try to remember all the time. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, as I recall you were telling us about these +developments at Neely Street when you found that your husband was +suggesting that you go back to Russia alone and you discussed that +matter, and you thought it had something to do with the idea he had, +which I understood you have discovered as you looked back or thought +back later but didn't know at the time fully. Is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. RANKIN. Could you tell us those things that you observed that +caused you to think he had something in mind at that time, and I will +ask you later, after you tell us, those that you discovered since or +that you have obtained more light on since. + +Mrs. OSWALD. At that time I did not think anything about it. I had no +reasons to think that he had something in mind. I did not understand +him at that time. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn about it? Did you see it some place in +the apartment? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Lee had a small room where he spent a great deal of +time, where he read--where he kept his things, and that is where the +rifle was. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was it out in the room at that time, as distinguished from +in a closet in the room? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was open, out in the open. At first I think--I saw +some package up on the top shelf, and I think that that was the rifle. +But I didn't know. And apparently later he assembled it and had it in +the room. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you saw the rifle assembled in the room, did it have +the scope on it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, it did not have a scope on it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any discussion with your husband about the +rifle when you first saw it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Of course I asked him, "What do you need a rifle for? What +do we need that for?" + +He said that it would come in handy some time for hunting. And this was +not too surprising because in Russia, too, we had a rifle. + +Mr. RANKIN. In Russia did you have a rifle or a shotgun? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know the difference. One and the other shoots. You +men. That is your business. + +The CHAIRMAN. My wife wouldn't know the difference, so it is all right. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have never served in the Army. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss what the rifle cost with your husband? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle later placed in a closet in the apartment at +Neely Street? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, it was always either in a corner, standing up in a +corner or on a shelf. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what happened to the gun that you had in +Russia? Was it brought over to this country? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, he sold it there. I did not say so when I had the +first interviews. You must understand this was my husband. I didn't +want to say too much. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is this rifle at Neely Street the only rifle that you know +of that your husband had after you were married to him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever show that rifle to the De Mohrenschildts? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I know that De Mohrenschildts had said that the rifle had +been shown to him, but I don't remember that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall your husband taking the rifle away from the +apartment on Neely Street at any time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. You must know that the rifle--it isn't as if it was out in +the open. He would hang a coat or something to mask its presence in the +room. And sometimes when he walked out, when he went out in the evening +I didn't know, because I didn't go into that room very often. I don't +know whether he took it with him or not. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see him clean the rifle? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I said before I had never seen it before. But I think +you understand. I want to help you, and that is why there is no reason +for concealing anything. I will not be charged with anything. + +Mr. GOPADZE. She says she was not sworn in before. But now inasmuch as +she is sworn in, she is going to tell the truth. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you see him clean the rifle a number of times? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Could you help us by giving some estimate of the times as +you remember it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. About four times--about four or five times, I think. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband ever tell you why he was cleaning +the--that is, that he had been using it and needed to be cleaned after +use? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I did not ask him, because I thought it was quite +normal that when you have a rifle you must clean it from time to time. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever observe your husband taking the rifle away +from the apartment on Neely Street? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I think that he probably did sometimes, but I +never did see it. You must understand that sometimes I would be in +the kitchen and he would be in his room downstairs, and he would say +bye-bye, I will be back soon, and he may have taken it. He probably +did. Perhaps he purely waited for an occasion when he could take it +away without my seeing it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever observe that the rifle had been taken out of +the apartment at Neely Street--that is, that it was gone? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Before the incident with General Walker, I know that Lee +was preparing for something. He took photographs of that house and he +told me not to enter his room. I didn't know about these photographs, +but when I came into the room once in general he tried to make it +so that I would spend less time in that room. I noticed that quite +accidentally one time when I was cleaning the room he tried to take +care of it himself. + +I asked him what kind of photographs are these, but he didn't say +anything to me. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is the photographs of the Walker house that you were +asking about? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Later, after he had fired, he told me about it. + +I didn't know that he intended to do it--that he was planning to do it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn at any time that he had been practicing with +the rifle? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he went once or twice. I didn't actually see +him take the rifle, but I knew that he was practicing. + +Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us a little help on how you knew? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He told me. And he would mention that in passing--it +isn't as if he said, "Well, today I am going"--it wasn't as if he +said, "Well, today I am going to take the rifle and go and practice." + +But he would say, "Well, today I will take the rifle along for +practice." + +Therefore, I don't know whether he took it from the house or whether +perhaps he even kept the rifle somewhere outside. There was a little +square, sort of a little courtyard where he might have kept it. + +When you asked me about the rifle, I said that Lee didn't have a rifle, +but he also had a gun, a revolver. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall when he first had the pistol, that you +remember? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He had that on Neely Street, but I think that he acquired +the rifle before he acquired the pistol. The pistol I saw twice--once +in his room, and the second time when I took these photographs. + +Mr. RANKIN. What period of time was there between when he got the rifle +and you learned of it, and the time that you first learned about the +pistol? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I can't say. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you testified about his practicing with the rifle, are +you describing a period when you were still at Neely Street? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know where he practiced with the rifle? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where. I don't know the name of the place +where this took place. But I think it was somewhere out of town. It +seems to me a place called Lopfield. + +Mr. RANKIN. Would that be at the airport--Love Field? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Love Field. + +Mr. RANKIN. So you think he was practicing out in the open and not at a +rifle range? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall seeing the rifle when the telescopic lens was +on it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I hadn't paid any attention initially. + +I know a rifle was a rifle. I didn't know whether or not it had a +telescope attached to it. But the first time I remember seeing it was +in New Orleans, where I recognized the telescope. But probably the +telescope was on before. I simply hadn't paid attention. + +I hope you understand. When I saw it, I thought that all rifles have +that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any objection to having the rifle around? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That for a man to have a rifle--since I am a woman, I +don't understand him, and I shouldn't bother him. A fine life. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is that the same rifle that you are referring to that you +took the picture of with your husband and when he had the pistol, too? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I asked him then why he had dressed himself up like +that, with the rifle and the pistol, and I thought that he had gone +crazy, and he said he wanted to send that to a newspaper. This was not +my business--it was man's business. + +If I had known these were such dangerous toys, of course--you +understand that I thought that Lee had changed in that direction, and I +didn't think it was a serious occupation with him, just playing around. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the day that you took the picture of him with +the rifle and the pistol? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think that that was towards the end of February, +possibly the beginning of March. I can't say exactly. Because I didn't +attach any significance to it at the time. That was the only time I +took any pictures. + +I don't know how to take pictures. He gave me a camera and asked me--if +someone should ask me how to photograph, I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was it on a day off that you took the picture? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It was on a Sunday. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did it occur? Did he come to you and ask you to take +the picture? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I was hanging up diapers, and he came up to me with the +rifle and I was even a little scared, and he gave me the camera and +asked me to press a certain button. + +Mr. RANKIN. And he was dressed up with a pistol at the same time, was +he? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. You have examined that picture since, and noticed that the +telescopic lens was on at the time the picture was taken, have you not? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now I paid attention to it. A specialist would see it +immediately, of course. But at that time I did not pay any attention +at all. I saw just Lee. These details are of great significance for +everybody, but for me at that time it didn't mean anything. At the +time that I was questioned, I had even forgotten that I had taken two +photographs. I thought there was only one. I thought that there were +two identical pictures, but they turned out to be two different poses. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with the prints of the +photograph after the prints were made? That is, did you put them in a +photographic album yourself? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee gave me one photograph and asked me to keep it for +June somewhere. Of course June doesn't need photographs like that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how long after that the Walker matter +occurred? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Two, perhaps three weeks later. I don't know. You know +better when this happened. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did you first learn that your husband had shot at +General Walker? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That evening he went out, I thought that he had gone to +his classes or perhaps that he just walked out or went out on his own +business. It got to be about 10 or 10:30, he wasn't home yet, and I +began to be worried. Perhaps even later. + +Then I went into his room. Somehow, I was drawn into it--you know--I +was pacing around. Then I saw a note there. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you look for the gun at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't understand anything. On the note it said, +"If I am arrested" and there are certain other questions, such as, +for example, the key to the mailbox is in such and such a place, and +that he left me some money to last me for some time, and I couldn't +understand at all what can he be arrested for. When he came back I +asked him what had happened. He was very pale. I don't remember the +exact time, but it was very late. + +And he told me not to ask him any questions. He only told me that he +had shot at General Walker. + +Of course I didn't sleep all night. I thought that any minute now, the +police will come. Of course I wanted to ask him a great deal. But in +his state I decided I had best leave him alone--it would be purposeless +to question him. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say any more than that about the shooting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Of course in the morning I told him that I was worried, +and that we can have a lot of trouble, and I asked him, "Where is the +rifle? What did you do with it?" + +He said, that he had left it somewhere, that he had buried it, it seems +to me, somewhere far from that place, because he said dogs could find +it by smell. + +I don't know--I am not a criminologist. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he had shot at General Walker? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that he had no right to kill people in +peacetime, he had no right to take their life because not everybody has +the same ideas as he has. People cannot be all alike. + +He said that this was a very bad man, that he was a fascist, that he +was the leader of a fascist organization, and when I said that even +though all of that might be true, just the same he had no right to +take his life, he said if someone had killed Hitler in time it would +have saved many lives. I told him that this is no method to prove your +ideas, by means of a rifle. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him how long he had been planning to do this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said he had been planning for two months. +Yes--perhaps he had planned to do so even earlier, but according to his +conduct I could tell he was planning--he had been planning this for two +months or perhaps a little even earlier. + +The CHAIRMAN. Would you like to take a little recess? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, thank you. Better to get it over with. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he show you a picture of the Walker house then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. That was after the shooting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He had a book--he had a notebook in which he noted +down quite a few details. It was all in English, I didn't read it. But +I noticed the photograph. Sometimes he would lock himself in his room +and write in the book. I thought that he was writing some other kind of +memoirs, as he had written about his life in the Soviet Union. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever read that book? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of anything else he had in it besides this +Walker house picture? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. Photographs and notes, and I think there was a map in +there. + +Mr. RANKIN. There was a map of the area where the Walker house was? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It was a map of Dallas, but I don't know where Walker +lived. Sometimes evenings he would be busy with this. Perhaps he was +calculating something, but I don't know. He had a bus schedule and +computed something. + +After this had happened, people thought that he had a car, but he had +been using a bus. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he explain to you about his being able to use a bus +just as well as other people could use a car--something of that kind? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. Simply as a passenger. He told me that even before +that time he had gone also to shoot, but he had returned. I don't know +why. Because on the day that he did fire, there was a church across the +street and there were many people there, and it was easier to merge in +the crowd and not be noticed. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him about this note that he had left, what he +meant by it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--he said he had in mind that if in case he were +arrested, I would know what to do. + +Mr. RANKIN. The note doesn't say anything about Walker, does it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him if that is what he meant by the note? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because as soon as he came home I showed him the note +and asked him "What is the meaning of this?" + +Mr. RANKIN. And that is when he gave you the explanation about the +Walker shooting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +I know that on a Sunday he took the rifle, but I don't think he fired +on a Sunday. Perhaps this was on Friday. So Sunday he left and took the +rifle. + +Mr. RANKIN. If the Walker shooting was on Wednesday, does that refresh +your memory as to the day of the week at all? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Refresh my memory as to what? + +Mr. RANKIN. As to the day of the shooting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It was in the middle of the week. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he give any further explanation of what had happened +that evening? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When he fired, he did not know whether he had hit Walker +or not. He didn't take the bus from there. He ran several kilometers +and then took the bus. And he turned on the radio and listened, but +there were no reports. + +The next day he bought a paper and there he read it was only chance +that saved Walker's life. If he had not moved, he might have been +killed. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he comment on that at all? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said only that he had taken very good aim, that it was +just chance that caused him to miss. He was very sorry that he had not +hit him. + +I asked him to give me his word that he would not repeat anything like +that. I said that this chance shows that he must live and that he +should not be shot at again. I told him that I would save the note and +that if something like that should be repeated again, I would go to +the police and I would have the proof in the form of that note. + +He said he would not repeat anything like that again. + +By the way, several days after that, the De Mohrenschildts came to us, +and as soon as he opened the door he said, "Lee, how is it possible +that you missed?" + +I looked at Lee. I thought that he had told De Mohrenschildt about it. +And Lee looked at me, and he apparently thought that I had told De +Mohrenschildt about it. It was kind of dark. But I noticed--it was in +the evening, but I noticed that his face changed, that he almost became +speechless. + +You see, other people knew my husband better than I did. Not +always--but in this case. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was De Mohrenschildt a friend that he told--your husband +told him personal things that you knew of? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He asked Lee not because Lee had told him about it, but I +think because he is smart enough man to have been able to guess it. I +don't know--he is simply a liberal, simply a man. I don't think that he +is being accused justly of being a Communist. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is De Mohrenschildt that you refer to? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell the authorities anything about this Walker +incident when you learned about it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. You have told the Secret Service or the FBI people reasons +why you didn't. Will you tell us? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Why I did not tell about it? + +First, because it was my husband. As far as I know, according to the +local laws here, a wife cannot be a witness against her husband. But, +of course, if I had known that Lee intended to repeat something like +that, I would have told. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he ask you to return the note to him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He forgot about it. But apparently after that he thought +that what he had written in his book might be proof against him, and he +destroyed it. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is this book that you have just referred to in which +he had the Walker house picture? + +Mrs. OSWALD. There was a notebook, yes, that is the one. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you do with the note that he had left for you +after you talked about it and said you were going to keep it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I had it among my things in a cookbook. But I have two--I +don't remember in which. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your relations with your husband change after this +Walker incident? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe to us the changes as you observed them? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Soon after that, Lee lost his job--I don't know for what +reason. He was upset by it. And he looked for work for several days. +And then I insisted that it would be better for him to go to New +Orleans where he had relatives. I insisted on that because I wanted +to get him further removed from Dallas and from Walker, because even +though he gave me his word, I wanted to have him further away, because +a rifle for him was not a very good toy--a toy that was too enticing. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that you wanted him to go to New Orleans +because of the Walker incident? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I simply told him that I wanted to see his home town. +He had been born there. + +Mr. RANKIN. When he promised you that he would not do anything like +that again, did you then believe him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I did not quite believe him inasmuch as the rifle remained +in the house. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him to get rid of the rifle at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. After he shot at Walker, did you notice his taking the +rifle out any more to practice? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall when you went to New Orleans? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was in May. Lee went there himself, by himself. +At that time, I became acquainted with Mrs. Paine, and I stayed with +her while he was looking for work. In about one week Lee telephoned me +that he had found a job and that I should come down. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did you first get acquainted with Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was a couple of months earlier--probably in +January. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to go to Mrs. Paine's house to stay? Did +she invite you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; she invited me. I had become acquainted with her +through some Russian friends of ours. We had visited with some people, +and she was there. Inasmuch as she was studying Russian, she invited me +to stay with her. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you pay her anything for staying with her? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I only repaid her in the sense that I helped her in +the household and that I gave her Russian language lessons. This, in +her words, was the very best pay that I could give her. And she wanted +that I remain with her longer. + +But, of course, it was better for me to be with my husband. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did your husband let you know that he had found a job? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He telephoned me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you then leave at once for New Orleans? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And how did you get to New Orleans from Dallas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Mrs. Paine took me there in her car. She took her children +and my things and we went there. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have much in the way of household goods to move? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Everything--we could put everything into one car. But, in +fact, most of the things Lee had taken with him. Because he went by bus. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he take the gun with him to New Orleans? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember exactly, but it seems to me that it was +not among my things. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where did you live at New Orleans? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Magazine Street. By the time I arrived there Lee already +had rented an apartment. + +Mr. RANKIN. When Mrs. Paine brought you down to New Orleans, did she +stay with you for any period of time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, she was there for two days. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did Mrs. Paine and your husband get along? Were they +friendly? + +Mrs. OSWALD. She was very good to us, to Lee and to me, and Lee was +quite friendly with her, but he did not like her. I know that he didn't +like her. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he didn't like her? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He considered her to be a stupid woman. Excuse me--these +are not my words. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you and Mrs. Paine good friends? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, so-so. I tried to help her as much as I could. But I +also--I was--I did not like her too well. I also considered her not to +be a very smart woman. + +Mr. RANKIN. I think it is about time for a recess, Mr. Chairman. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well. We will take a recess for 10 minutes. + +(Brief recess.) + +The CHAIRMAN. The Committee will be in order. + +Mr. Rankin, you may continue. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, did you discuss the Walker shooting with Mrs. +Paine? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I didn't tell anyone. Apart from the FBI. That is +after--that is later. + +Mr. RANKIN. When was it that you told the FBI about the Walker shooting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. About 2 weeks after Lee was killed. + +Mr. RANKIN. Before you went to New Orleans, had you seen anyone from +the FBI? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The FBI visited us in Fort Worth when we lived on Mercedes +Street. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was that in August 1962? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Probably. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the names of the FBI agents that visited you +then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't remember that Lee had just returned from work +and we were getting ready to have dinner when a car drove up and man +introduced himself and asked Lee to step out and talk to him. + +There was another man in the car. They talked for about 2 hours and I +was very angry, because everything had gotten cold. This meant more +work for me. I asked who these were, and he was very upset over the +fact that the FBI was interested in him. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did that interview take place in the car? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband tell you what they said to him and what he +said to them? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know to what extent this was true, but Lee said +that the FBI had told him that in the event some Russians might visit +him and would try to recruit him to work for them, he should notify the +FBI agents. I don't know to what extent this was true. But perhaps Lee +just said that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did our husband say anything about the FBI asking him to +work for them? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't tell me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything more about what they said to him in +this interview? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't tell me verbatim, but he said that they saw +Communists in everybody and they are very much afraid and inasmuch as I +had returned from Russia. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that they had asked him whether he had +acted as an agent or was asked to be an agent for the Russians? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any other---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. They did ask him about whether the Russians had +proposed that he be an agent for them. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what he said to them in that regard? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that he had answered no. + +Mr. RANKIN. After this interview by the FBI agents, do you recall any +later interview with them and yourself or your husband before you went +to New Orleans? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, there were no other interviews. + +The next time was in Irving, when I lived with Mrs. Paine. But that is +after I returned from New Orleans. + +Mr. RANKIN. At New Orleans, who did your husband work for? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He worked for the Louisiana Coffee Co. But I don't know in +what capacity. I don't think that this was very good job, or perhaps +more correctly, he did not--I know that he didn't like this job. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what he received in pay from that job? + +Mrs. OSWALD. $1.35 an hour, I think. I am not sure. + +Mr. RANKIN. How long did he work for this coffee company? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was from May until August, to the end of August. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was he discharged? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And then was he unemployed for a time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. After you had discussed with your husband your going to +Russia, was anything done about that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I wrote a letter to the Soviet Embassy with a request +to be permitted to return. And then it seems to me after I was already +in New Orleans, I wrote another letter in which I told the Embassy that +my husband wants to return with me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date of the first letter that you just +referred to? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. But that is easily determined. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you asking for a visa to return to Russia? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss with your husband his returning with you +before you wrote the second letter that you have described? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't ask him. He asked me to do so one day when he +was extremely upset. He appeared to be very unhappy and he said that +nothing keeps him here, and that he would not lose anything if he +returned to the Soviet Union, and that he wants to be with me. And that +it would be better to have less but not to be concerned about tomorrow, +not to be worried about tomorrow. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was this a change in his attitude? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Towards me or towards Russia? + +Mr. RANKIN. Towards going to Russia. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think that he was too fond of Russia, but simply +that he knew that he would have work assured him there, because he +had--after all, he had to think about his family. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you know that he did get a passport? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me he always had a passport. + +Mr. RANKIN. While he was in New Orleans, that he got a passport? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, it seems to me that after we came here, he +immediately received a passport. I don't know. I always saw his green +passport. He even had two--one that had expired, and a new one. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when the new one was issued? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. It seems to me in the Embassy when we arrived. I don't +know. + +But please understand me correctly, I am not hiding this. I simply +don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know about a letter from your husband to the Embassy +asking that his request for a visa be considered separately from yours? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you were at New Orleans, did your husband go to +school, that you knew of? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he spend his earnings with you and your child? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Most of the time, yes. But I know that he became active +with some kind of activity in a pro-Cuban committee. I hope that is +what you are looking for. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did you first notice the rifle at New Orleans? + +Mrs. OSWALD. As soon as I arrived in New Orleans. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where was it kept there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He again had a closet-like room with his things in it. He +had his clothes hanging there, all his other belongings. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle in a cover there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice him take it away from your home there in New +Orleans at any time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I know for sure that he didn't. But I know that we had +a kind of a porch with a--screened-in porch, and I know that sometimes +evenings after dark he would sit there with his rifle. I don't know +what he did with it. I came there by chance once and saw him just +sitting there with his rifle. I thought he is merely sitting there and +resting. Of course I didn't like these kind of little jokes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us an idea of how often this happened that you +recall? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It began to happen quite frequently after he was arrested +there in connection with some demonstration and handing out of leaflets. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was that the Fair Play for Cuba demonstration? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. From what you observed about his having the rifle on the +back porch, in the dark, could you tell whether or not he was trying to +practice with the telescopic lens? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I asked him why. But this time he was preparing to go +to Cuba. + +Mr. RANKIN. That was his explanation for practicing with the rifle? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said that he would go to Cuba. I told him I was +not going with him--that I would stay here. + +Mr. RANKIN. On these occasions when he was practicing with the rifle, +would they be three or four times a week in the evening, after the Fair +Play for Cuba incident? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Almost every evening. He very much wanted to go to Cuba +and have the newspapers write that somebody had kidnapped an aircraft. +And I asked him "For God sakes, don't do such a thing." + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he describe that idea to you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And when he told you of it, did he indicate that he wanted +to be the one that would kidnap the airplane himself? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he wanted to do that. And he asked me that I should +help him with that. But I told him I would not touch that rifle. + +This sounds very merry, but I am very much ashamed of it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell him that using the rifle in this way, talking +about it, was not in accordance with his agreement with you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said that everything would go well. He was very +self-reliant--if I didn't want to. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was there any talk of divorce during this period? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. During this time, we got along pretty well not +counting the incidents with Cuba. I say relatively well, because we did +not really have--generally he helped me quite a bit and was good to me. +But, of course, I did not agree with his views. + +Mr. RANKIN. At this time in New Orleans did he discuss with you his +views? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Mostly--most of the conversations were on the subject of +Cuba. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything said about the United States--not liking +the United States. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I can't say--he liked some things in Russia, he liked +some other things here, didn't like some things there, and didn't like +some things here. + +And I am convinced that as much as he knew about Cuba, all he knew was +from books and so on. He wanted to convince himself. But I am sure that +if he had gone there, he would not have liked it there, either. Only on +the moon, perhaps. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what he didn't like about the United States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. First of all, he didn't like the fact that there are +fascist organizations here. That was one thing. + +The second thing, that it was hard to get an education and hard to find +work. And that medical expenses were very high. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say who he blamed for this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't blame anyone. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say anything about President Kennedy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. At least--I was always interested in President Kennedy +and had asked him many times to translate articles in a newspaper or +magazine for me, and he always had something good to say. He translated +it, but never did comment on it. At least in Lee's behavior--from +Lee's behavior I cannot conclude that he was against the President, +and therefore the thing is incomprehensible to me. Perhaps he hid it +from me. I don't know. He said that after 20 years he would be prime +minister. I think that he had a sick imagination--at least at that time +I already considered him to be not quite normal--not always, but at +times. I always tried to point out to him that he was a man like any +others who were around us. But he simply could not understand that. + +I tried to tell him that it would be better to direct his energies to +some more practical matters, and not something like that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what you observed about him that caused you +to think he was different? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At least his imagination, his fantasy, which was quite +unfounded, as to the fact that he was an outstanding man. And then +the fact that he was very much interested, exceedingly so, in +autobiographical works of outstanding statesmen of the United States +and others. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else of that kind that caused you to +think that he was different? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he compared himself to these people whose +autobiographies he read. That seems strange to me, because it is +necessary to have an education in order to achieve success of that +kind. After he became busy with his pro-Cuban activity, he received a +letter from somebody in New York, some Communist--probably from New +York--I am not sure from where--from some Communist leader and he was +very happy, he felt that this was a great man that he had received the +letter from. + +You see, when I would make fun of him, of his activity to some extent, +in the sense that it didn't help anyone really, he said that I didn't +understand him, and here, you see, was proof that someone else did, +that there were people who understood his activity. + +I would say that to Lee--that Lee could not really do much for Cuba, +that Cuba would get along well without him, if they had to. + +Mr. RANKIN. You would tell that to him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And what would he say in return? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He shrugged his shoulders and kept his own opinion. He was +even interested in the airplane schedules, with the idea of kidnapping +a plane. But I talked him out of it. + +Mr. RANKIN. The airplane schedules from New Orleans? + +Mrs. OSWALD. New Orleans--but--from New Orleans--leaving New Orleans in +an opposite direction. And he was going to make it turn around and go +to Cuba. + +Mr. RANKIN. He discussed this with you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did his Fair Play for Cuba activity occur--before or +after he lost his job? + +Mrs. OSWALD. After he lost his job. I told him it would be much better +if he were working, because when he didn't work he was busy with such +foolishness. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing. And it is at that time that I wrote a letter to +Mrs. Paine telling her that Lee was out of work, and they invited me to +come and stay with her. And when I left her, I knew that Lee would go +to Mexico City. But, of course, I didn't tell Mrs. Paine about it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Had he discussed with you the idea of going to Mexico City? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did he first discuss that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was in August. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he wanted to go to Mexico City? + +Mrs. OSWALD. From Mexico City he wanted to go to Cuba--perhaps through +the Russian Embassy in Mexico somehow he would be able to get to Cuba. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about going to Russia by way of Cuba? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I know that he said that in the embassy. But he only said +so. I know that he had no intention of going to Russia then. + +Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He told me. I know Lee fairly well--well enough from that +point of view. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that he was going to Cuba and send you on +to Russia? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, he proposed that after he got to Cuba, that I would go +there, too, somehow. + +But he also said that after he was in Cuba, and if he might go to +Russia, he would let me know in any case. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he discuss Castro and the Cuban Government with you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did he start to do that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At the time that he was busy with that pro-Cuban activity. +He was sympathetic to Castro while in Russia, and I have also a good +opinion of Castro to the extent that I know. I don't know anything bad +about him. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about Castro to you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he is a very smart statesman, very useful for +his government, and very active. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I said, "Maybe." It doesn't make any difference to me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you know he was writing to the Fair Play for Cuba +organization in New York during this latter period in New Orleans? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he show you that correspondence? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He told me about it. Or, more correctly, I saw that he was +writing to them. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you write the Russian Embassy in regard to your visa +from New Orleans. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what address you gave in New Orleans when you +wrote? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't remember. Sometimes I would write a letter, +but Lee would insert the address and would mail the letters. That is +why I don't remember. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you get your mail in New Orleans at your apartment or +at a post office box? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, we had a post office box, and that is where we +received our mail. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband have any organization in his Fair Play for +Cuba at New Orleans? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, he had no organization. He was alone. He was quite +alone. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn about his arrest there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The next day, when he was away from home overnight and +returned, he told me he had been arrested. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He was smiling, but in my opinion he was upset. I think +that after that occurrence--he became less active, he cooled off a +little. + +Mr. RANKIN. Less active in the Fair Play for Cuba? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He continued it, but more for a person's sake. I +think that his heart was no longer in it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that the FBI had seen him at the jail in +New Orleans? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he complain about his arrest and say it was unfair, +anything of that kind. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you know he paid a fine? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with trying to get him out of +jail? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +He was only there for 24 hours. He paid his fine and left. He said that +the policeman who talked to him was very kind, and was a very good +person. + +Mr. RANKIN. While you were in New Orleans, did you get to know the +Murrets? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. They are his relatives. I think that Lee engaged in +this activity primarily for purposes of self-advertising. He wanted to +be arrested. I think he wanted to get into the newspapers, so that he +would be known. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you think he wanted to be advertised and known as being +in support of Cuba before he went to Cuba? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you think he thought that would help him when he got to +Cuba? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about that, or is that just what +you guess? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He would collect the newspaper clippings about his--when +the newspapers wrote about him, and he took these clippings with him +when he went to Mexico. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did the Murrets come to visit you from time to time in New +Orleans? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--sometimes they came to us, and sometimes we went to +them. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was that a friendly relationship? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I would say that they were more of a family relationship +type. They were very good to us. His uncle, that is the husband of +his aunt, was a very good man. He tried to reason with Lee after that +incident. Lee liked them very much as relatives but he didn't like the +fact that they were all very religious. + +When his uncle, or, again, the husband of his aunt would tell him that +he must approach things with a more serious attitude, and to worry +about himself and his family, Lee would say, "Well, these are just +bourgeois, who are only concerned with their own individual welfare." + +Mr. KRIMER. The word Mrs. Oswald used is not quite bourgeois, but it is +a person of a very narrow viewpoint who is only concerned with his own +personal interests, inclined to be an egotist. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you hear the discussion when the uncle talked about +this Fair Play for Cuba and his activities? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did the uncle say to your husband about that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At that time. I did not know English too well, and Lee +would not interpret for me. He only nodded his head. But I knew that +he did not agree with his uncle. His uncle said that he condemned that +kind of activity. + +Mr. RANKIN. What was your husband's attitude about your learning +English? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He never talked English to me at home, and did not give me +any instruction. This was strictly my own business. But he did want me +to learn English. But that was my own concern. I had to do that myself +somehow. That is the truth. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did any of your Russian friends visit you at New Orleans? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Outside of the Murrets, were there some people from New +Orleans that visited you at your home in New Orleans? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Once or twice a woman visited who was a friend of Ruth +Paine's. Ruth Paine has written her. She had written to Ruth Paine to +find out whether she knew any Russians there. And once or twice this +woman visited us. But other than that, no one. + +Mr. RANKIN. What was the name of this woman? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. I only remember that her first name is +also Ruth. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband have friends of his that visited you there +at New Orleans? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, never. + +Once some time after Lee was arrested, on a Saturday or a Sunday +morning, a man came early and questioned Lee about the activity of the +allegedly existing organization, which really did not exist. Because +in the newspaper accounts Lee was described as a member and even the +leader of that organization, which in reality did not exist at all. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who that was? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't. I asked Lee who that was, and he said that +is probably some anti-Cuban, or perhaps an FBI agent. He represented +himself as a man who was sympathetic to Cuba but Lee did not believe +him. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband ever tell you what he told the FBI agent +when they came to the jail to see him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. After you wrote Mrs. Paine, did she come at once in +response to your letter to take you back to Dallas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Not quite at once. She came about a month later. She +apparently was on vacation at that time, and said that she would come +after her vacation. + +Mr. RANKIN. Didn't she indicate that she was going to come around +September 30, and then came a little before that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. In her letter to me she indicated that she would come +either the 20th or the 21st of September, and she did come at that time. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you move your household goods in her station wagon at +that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle was carried in the +station wagon? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with loading it in there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. Lee was loading everything on because I was pregnant +at the time. But I know that Lee loaded the rifle on. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle carried in some kind of a case when you went +back with Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. OSWALD. After we arrived. I tried to put the bed, the child's crib +together, the metallic parts, and I looked for a certain part, and I +came upon something wrapped in a blanket. I thought that was part of +the bed, but it turned out to be the rifle. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember whether the pistol was carried back in Mrs. +Paine's car too? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where the pistol was. + +Mr. RANKIN. Before you went back to Mrs. Paine's house, did you discuss +whether you would be paying her anything for board and room? + +Mrs. OSWALD. She proposed that I again live with her on the same +conditions as before. Because this was more advantageous for her than +to pay a school. She received better instruction that way. + +In any case, she didn't spend any extra money for me--she didn't spend +any more than she usually spent. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you give her lessons in Russian? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, these were not quite lessons. It was more in the +nature of conversational practice. And then I also helped her to +prepare Russian lessons for the purpose of teaching Russian. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you found the rifle wrapped in the blanket, upon your +return to Mrs. Paine's, where was it located? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In the garage, where all the rest of the things were. + +Mr. RANKIN. In what part of the garage? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In that part which is closer to the street, because that +garage is connected to the house. One door opens on the kitchen, and +the other out in the street. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle lying down or was it standing up on the butt +end? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, it was lying down on the floor. + +Mr. RANKIN. When your husband talked about going to Mexico City, did he +say where he was going to go there, who he would visit? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said that he would go to the Soviet Embassy and to +the Cuban Embassy and would do everything he could in order to get to +Cuba. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you where he would stay in Mexico City? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In a hotel. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you the name? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't know where he would stop. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was there any discussion about the expense of making the +trip? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But we always lived very modestly, and Lee always had +some savings. Therefore, he had the money for it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say how much it would cost? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He had a little over $100 and he said that that would be +sufficient. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he talk about getting you a silver bracelet or any +presents before he went? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It is perhaps more truth to say that he asked me what I +would like, and I told him that I would like Mexican silver bracelets. +But what he did buy me I didn't like at all. When he returned to +Irving, from Mexico City, and I saw the bracelet, I was fairly sure +that he had bought it in New Orleans and not in Mexico City, because I +had seen bracelets like that for sale there. That is why I am not sure +that the bracelet was purchased in Mexico. + +Lee had an identical bracelet which he had bought in either Dallas or +New Orleans. It was a man's bracelet. + +Mr. RANKIN. The silver bracelet he gave you when he got back had your +name on it, did it not? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was it too small? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I was offended because it was too small, and he +promised to exchange it. But, of course, I didn't want to hurt him, and +I said, thank you, the important thing is the thought, the attention. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he discuss other things that he planned to do in Mexico +City, such as see the bullfights or jai alai games or anything of that +kind? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I was already questioned about this game by the FBI, +but I never heard of it. But I had asked Lee to buy some Mexican +records, but he did not do that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how he got to Mexico City? + +Mrs. OSWALD. By bus. + +Mr. RANKIN. And did he return by bus, also? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It seems, yes. Yes, he told me that a round-trip ticket +was cheaper than two one-way tickets. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn that he had a tourist card to go to Mexico? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. If he had such a card, you didn't know it then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. After he had been to Mexico City, did he come back to +Irving or to Dallas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee returned I was already in Irving and he +telephoned me. But he told me that he had arrived the night before and +had spent the night in Dallas, and called me in the morning. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say where he had been in Dallas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me at the YMcA. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he come right out to see you then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about his trip to Mexico City? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he told me that he had visited the two embassies, +that he had received nothing, that the people who are there are too +much--too bureaucratic. He said that he has spent the time pretty well. +And I had told him that if he doesn't accomplish anything to at least +take a good rest. I was hoping that the climate, if nothing else, would +be beneficial to him. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him what he did the rest of the time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I think he said that he visited a bull fight, that he +spent most of his time in museums, and that he did some sightseeing in +the city. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you about anyone that he met there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +He said that he did not like the Mexican girls. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about what happened at the Cuban +Embassy, or consulate? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. Only that he had talked to certain people there. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what people he talked to? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he first visited the Soviet Embassy in the +hope that having been there first this would make it easier for him at +the Cuban Embassy. But there they refused to have anything to do with +him. + +Mr. RANKIN. And what did he say about the visit to the Cuban Embassy or +consulate? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It was quite without results. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he complain about the consular or any of the officials +of the Cuban Embassy and the way they handled the matter? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he called them bureaucrats. He said that the Cubans +seemed to have a system similar to the Russians--too much red tape +before you get through there. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else that he told you about the Mexico +City trip that you haven't related? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, that is all that I can remember about it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how long he was gone on his trip to Mexico +City? + +Mrs. OSWALD. All of this took approximately 2 weeks, from the time that +I left New Orleans, until the time that he returned. + +Mr. RANKIN. And from the time he left the United States to go to Mexico +City to his return, was that about 7 days? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said he was there for about a week. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you were asked before about the trip to Mexico, you +did not say that you knew anything about it. Do you want to explain to +the Commission how that happened? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Most of these questions were put to me by the FBI. I do +not like them too much. I didn't want to be too sincere with them. +Though I was quite sincere and answered most of their questions. They +questioned me a great deal, and I was very tired of them, and I thought +that, well, whether I knew about it or didn't know about it didn't +change matters at all, it didn't help anything, because the fact that +Lee had been there was already known, and whether or not I knew about +it didn't make any difference. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was that the only reason that you did not tell about what +you knew of the Mexico City trip before? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because the first time that they asked me I said no, +I didn't know anything about it. And in all succeeding discussions I +couldn't very well have said I did. There is nothing special in that. +It wasn't because this was connected with some sort of secret. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband stay with you at the Paines after that +first night when he returned from Mexico? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he stayed overnight there. + +And in the morning we took him to Dallas. + +Mr. RANKIN. And by "we" who do you mean? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Ruth Paine, I and her children. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what he did in Dallas, then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He intended to rent an apartment in the area of Oak Cliff, +and to look for work. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he did that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I know that he always tried to get some work. He was +not lazy. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he rent the apartment? + +Mrs. OSWALD. On the same day he rented a room, not an apartment, and he +telephoned me and told me about it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the plans for this room before you took him +to Dallas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I asked him where he would live, and he said it +would be best if he rented a room, it would not be as expensive as an +apartment. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about whether you would be living with +him, or he would be living there alone? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I did not really want to be with Lee at that time, +because I was expecting, and it would have been better to be with a +woman who spoke English and Russian. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know where your husband looked for work in Dallas at +that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. He tried to get any kind of work. He answered ads, +newspaper ads. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he have trouble finding work again? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. How long after his return was it before he found a job? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Two to three weeks. + +Mr. RANKIN. When he was unemployed in New Orleans, did he get +unemployment compensation? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how much he was getting then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. $33 a week. It is possible to live on that money. One can +fail to find work and live. Perhaps you don't believe me. It is not bad +to rest and receive money. + +Mr. RANKIN. When he was unemployed in Dallas, do you know whether he +received unemployment compensation? + +Mrs. OSWALD. We were due to receive unemployment compensation, but it +was getting close to the end of his entitlement period, and we received +one more check. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss with him possible places of employment +after his return from Mexico? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. That was his business. I couldn't help him in that. +But to some extent I did help him find a job, because I was visiting +Mrs. Paine's neighbors. There was a woman there who told me where he +might find some work. + +Mr. RANKIN. And when was this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. If that is important, I can try and +ascertain date. But I think you probably know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was it shortly before he obtained work? + +Mrs. OSWALD. As soon as we got the information, the next day he went +there and he did get the job. + +Mr. RANKIN. And who was it that you got the information from? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It was the neighbor whose brother was employed by the +school book depository. He said it seemed to him there was a vacancy +there. + +Mr. RANKIN. What was his name? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, I think we have arrived at our adjournment time. We +will recess now until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock. + +(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Tuesday, February 4, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED + +The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 4, 1964, at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman +Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John +J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members. + +Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, +assistant counsel; Leon I. Gopadze and William D. Krimer, interpreters; +and John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald. + + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. + +Mr. Rankin, will you proceed with the questioning of Mrs. Oswald. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, there are a number of things about some of the +material we have been over, the period we have been over, that I would +like to ask you about, sort of to fill in different parts of it. I +hope you will bear with us in regard to that. + +Were you aware of the diary that your husband had written and the book +that he had typed? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he hire a public stenographer to help him with his book? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, he wrote his in longhand. He started it in Russia. But +he had it retyped here because it had been in longhand. + +Mr. RANKIN. And do you know about when he started to have it retyped +here? + +Mrs. OSWALD. We arrived in June. I think it was at the end of June. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what happened to that book, or a copy of it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At the present time it is--I don't know where--the police +department or the FBI. + +Mr. RANKIN. And what was done with the diary? Do you know that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where it is now. I know that it was taken. +But where it is now, I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. It was taken by either the FBI or the Secret Service or the +police department? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know that, because I was not at home when all +these things were taken. + +Mr. RANKIN. Would you tell us about what you know about their being +taken. Were you away from home and someone else was there when various +things belonging to you and your husband were taken from the house? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where this book was, whether it was at Mrs. +Paine's or in Lee's apartment, because I did not see it there. I was +not at Mrs. Paine's because I lived in a hotel at that time in Dallas. + +Mr. RANKIN. What hotel was that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was this diary kept by your husband daily, so far as you +know? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In Russia? + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, Russia first. + +Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me that he did not continue it here, that he +had completed it in Russia. Not everything, but most of the time. + +Mr. RANKIN. And was it in his own handwriting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about an interview with the FBI, when your +husband went out into the car and spent a couple of hours, in August +of 1962. Do you recall whether there was an FBI interview earlier than +that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, there wasn't. At least I don't know about it. Perhaps +there was such a meeting, perhaps at the time we were in Fort Worth +somebody had come, when we lived with Robert. One reporter wanted to +interview Lee but Lee would not give the interview, and perhaps the FBI +came, too. + +Mr. RANKIN. The particular interview that I am asking you about was +June 26, according to information from the FBI. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know about it. The first time I knew about the FBI +coming was when we lived in Fort Worth. + +Mr. RANKIN. What rental did you pay on Mercedes Street? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any difficulties while you were on Mercedes +Street with your husband--that is, any quarreling there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Only in connection with his mother, because of his mother. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you having any problems about finances there, on +Mercedes Street? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Of course we did not live in luxury. We did not buy +anything that was not absolutely needed, because Lee had to pay his +debt to Robert and to the government. But it was not particularly +difficult. At least on that basis we had not had any quarrels. + +Mr. RANKIN. Could you tell us about De Mohrenschildt? Was he a close +friend of your husband? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee did not have any close friends, but at least +he had--here in America--he had a great deal of respect for De +Mohrenschildt. + +Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe that relationship. Did they see each +other often? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, not very frequently. From time to time. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband tell you why he had so much respect for De +Mohrenschildt? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Because he considered him to be smart, to be full of joy +of living, a very energetic and very sympathetic person. + +Mr. RANKIN. We had a report that---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. It was pleasant to meet with him. He would +bring some pleasure and better atmosphere when he came to visit--with +his dogs--he is very loud. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you like him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Him and his wife. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand any of the conversations between your +husband and De Mohrenschildt? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they were held in Russian. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did they discuss politics or the Marxist philosophy or +anything of that kind? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Being men, of course, sometimes they talked about +politics, but they did not discuss Marxist philosophy. They spoke about +current political events. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did they have any discussions about President Kennedy or +the Government in the United States at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, only George said that before she got married he knew +Jackie Kennedy, that she was a very good, very sympathetic woman. Then +he was writing a book, that is George, and with reference to that book +he had written a letter to President Kennedy. This was with reference +to the fact that John Kennedy had recommended physical exercise, +walking and so on, and De Mohrenschildt and his wife had walked to the +Mexican border. And he hoped that John Kennedy would recommend his book. + +I don't know--perhaps this is foolishness. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything, or either of them say anything about +President Kennedy at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing bad. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you referred to George, did you mean Mr. De +Mohrenschildt? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I generally didn't believe him, that he had written a +book. Sometimes he could say so, but just for amusement. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did De Mohrenschildt have a daughter? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He had several daughters, and many wives. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was one of his daughters named Taylor, her last name? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. That is a daughter of his first marriage. At the +present time, I think he has--that is his fourth wife. + +Mr. RANKIN. And what was her---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. It seems that that is the last one. + +Mr. RANKIN. What was her husband's name--the Taylor daughter? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Gary Taylor. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with the Gary Taylors? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, at one time when I had to visit the dentist in +Dallas, and I lived in Fort Worth, I came to Dallas and I stayed with +them for a couple of days. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know about when that was? + +Mrs. OSWALD. October or November, 1962. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did Gary Taylor help you to move your things at one time, +move you and your daughter? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he moved our things from Fort Worth to Dallas, to +Elsbeth Street. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he help you to move to Mrs. Hall's at any time, anyone +else? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, he did not move me to Mrs. Hall. But sometimes he +came for a visit. Once or twice I think he came when we lived--to Mrs. +Hall's, and once when we lived on Mercedes Street. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he do when he came? Were those just visits? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, just visits. Just visits, with his wife and child. + +Mr. RANKIN. When the De Mohrenschildts came to the house and you showed +them the rifle, did you say anything about it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps I did say something to him, but I don't remember. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything like "Look what my crazy one has done? +Bought a rifle" or something of that kind? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This sounds like something I might say. Perhaps I did. + +Mr. RANKIN. In the period of October 1962, you did spend some time with +Mrs. Hall, did you not, in her home? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us about how that happened? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee found work in Dallas, Elena Hall proposed that +I stay with her for some time, because she was alone, and I would be +company. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did that have anything to do with any quarrels with your +husband? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. During that period of October of 1962, when your husband +went to Dallas to get work, do you know where he lived? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I know that for--at first, for some time he stayed at +the YMcA, but later he rented an apartment, but I don't know at what +address. Because in the letters which he wrote me, the return address +was a post office box. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he stayed during that period part of +the time with Gary Taylor? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where did you live while your husband was looking for work +and staying at the YMcA and at this apartment that you referred to? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When he stayed at the YMcA he had already found work, and +I was in Fort Worth. + +Mr. RANKIN. And where in Fort Worth were you staying then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. With Mrs. Hall. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice a change, psychologically, in your husband +during this period in the United States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did you first notice that change? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At--at Elsbeth Street, in Dallas. After the visit of the +FBI, in Fort Worth. He was for some time nervous and irritable. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he seem to have two different personalities then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Would you describe to the Commission what he did to cause +you to think that he was changing? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Generally he was--usually he was quite as he always was. +He used to help me. And he was a good family man. Sometimes, apparently +without reason, at least I did not know reasons, if any existed, he +became quite a stranger. At such times it was impossible to ask him +anything. He simply kept to himself. He was irritated by trifles. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any of the trifles that irritated him, so as +to help us to know the picture? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It is hard to remember any such trifling occurrences, +sometimes such a small thing as, for example, dinner being five minutes +late, and I do mean five minutes--it is not that I am exaggerating--he +would be very angry. Or if there were no butter on the table, because +he hadn't brought it from the icebox, he would with great indignation +ask, "Why is there no butter?" And at the same time if I had put the +butter on the table he wouldn't have touched it. + +This is foolishness, of course. A normal person doesn't get irritated +by things like that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I do not ask these questions to pry into your +personal affairs, but it gives us some insight into what he did and why +he might have done the things he did. + +I hope you understand that. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I understand. + +Mr. RANKIN. Could you tell us a little about when he did beat you +because we have reports that at times neighbors saw signs of his +having beat you, so that we might know the occasions and why he did +such things. + +Mrs. OSWALD. The neighbors simply saw that because I have a very +sensitive skin, and even a very light blow would show marks. Sometimes +it was my own fault. Sometimes it was really necessary to just leave +him alone. But I wanted more attention. He was jealous. He had no +reason to be. But he was jealous of even some of my old friends, old in +the sense of age. + +Mr. RANKIN. When he became jealous, did he discuss that with you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he say? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. + +Basically, that I prefer others to him. That I want many things which +he cannot give me. But that was not so. Once we had a quarrel because I +had a young man who was a boyfriend--this was before we were married, +a boy who was in love with me, and I liked him, too. And I had written +him a letter from here. I had--I wrote him that I was very lonely here, +that Lee had changed a great deal, and that I was sorry that I had not +married him instead, that it would have been much easier for me. I had +mailed that letter showing the post office box as a return address. But +this was just the time when the postage rates went up by one cent, and +the letter was returned. Lee brought that letter and asked me what it +was and forced me to read it. But I refused. Then he sat down across +from me and started to read it to me. I was very much ashamed of my +foolishness. And, of course, he hit me, but he did not believe that +this letter was sincere. He asked me if it was true or not, and I told +him that it was true. But he thought that I did it only in order to +tease him. And that was the end of it. It was a very ill-considered +thing. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything more that he said at that time about +that matter? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Of course after he hit me, he said that I should be +ashamed of myself for saying such things because he was very much in +love with me. But this was after he hit me. + +Generally, I think that was right, for such things, that is the right +thing to do. There was some grounds for it. + +Please excuse me. Perhaps I talk too much. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you had your child baptized, did you discuss that with +your husband? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I knew that Lee was not religious, and, therefore, I did +not tell him about it. I lived in Fort Worth at that time, while he +lived in Dallas. + +But when June was baptized, I told him about it, and he didn't say +anything about it. He said it was my business. And he said, "Okay, if +you wish." He had nothing against it. He only took offense at the fact +that I hadn't told him about it ahead of time. + +Mr. RANKIN. Are you a member of any church? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I believe in God, of course, but I do not go to +church--first because I do not have a car. And, secondly, because there +is only one Russian Church. Simply that I believe in God in my own +heart, and I don't think it is necessary to visit the church. + +Mr. RANKIN. While your husband--or while you were visiting the Halls, +did your husband tell you about getting his job in Dallas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I knew about it before he left for Dallas, that he +already had work there. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether your husband rented the apartment in +Dallas about November 3, 1962? + +Mrs. OSWALD. For him? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. He had told me that he rented a room, not an apartment. +But that was in October. + +What date I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. And had he obtained an apartment before you went to Dallas +to live with him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Cleaned everything up. + +Mr. RANKIN. So that you would have gone to Dallas to live with him some +time on or about the date that he rented that apartment? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. After you went to live with him in the apartment at Dallas, +did you separate from him again and go to live with somebody else? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Only after this quarrel. Then I stayed with my friends for +one week. I had already told you about that. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is the Meller matter? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that you called Mrs. Meller and told her +about your husband beating you and she told you to get a cab and come +to stay with her? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but he didn't beat me. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you didn't tell her that he had beat you, either? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think so. Perhaps she understood it that he had +beaten me, because it had happened. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us any more exact account of where your +husband stayed in the period between October 10 and November 18, 1962? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember his exact address. This was a period when +I did not live with him. + +I am asking about which period is it. I don't remember the dates. + +Mr. RANKIN. The period that he rented the apartment was November 3, so +that shortly after that, as I understood your testimony, you were with +him, from November 3, or about November 3 on to the 18th. Is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. From November 3 to November 18, 1962? On Elsbeth Street? +No, I was there longer. + +Mr. RANKIN. And do you recall the date that you went to Mrs. Hall's, +then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't remember. The day when he rented the apartment +was a Sunday. But where he lived before that, I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. After you went to live with him in the apartment, around +November 3, how long did you stay before you went to live with your +friend? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Approximately a month and a half. Perhaps a month. I am +not sure. + +Mr. RANKIN. And when you were at Fort Worth, and he was living in +Dallas, did he call you from time to time on the telephone? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he called me and he wrote letters and sometimes he +came for a visit. + +Mr. RANKIN. And during that time, did he tell you where he was staying? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he said that he had rented a room, but he did not +tell me his address. + +I want to help you, but I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you think there was something in your husband's life in +America, his friends and so forth, that caused him to be different here? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, he had no friends who had any influence over him. He +himself had changed by comparison to the way he was in Russia. But what +the reason for that was, I don't know. + +Am I giving sufficient answers to your questions? + +Mr. RANKIN. You are doing fine. + +Did your consideration of a divorce from your husband have anything to +do with his ideas and political opinions? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. The only reasons were personal ones with reference to +our personal relationship, not political reasons. + +Mr. RANKIN. In your story you say that what was involved was some of +his crazy ideas and political opinions. Can you tell us what you meant +by that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This was after the case, after the matter of the divorce. +I knew that Lee had such political leanings. + +Mr. RANKIN. With regard to your Russian friends, did you find the time +when they came less to see you and didn't show as much interest in you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us about the time, just approximately when you +noticed that difference? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Soon after arriving in Dallas. Mostly it was De +Mohrenschildt who visited us. He was the only one who remained our +friend. The others sort of removed themselves. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why that was? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Because they saw that Lee's attitude towards them was not +very proper, he was not very hospitable, and he was not glad to see +them. They felt that he did not like them. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe what you observed that caused you to +think this, or how your husband acted in regard to these friends? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that he did not like them, that he did not want +them to come to visit. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he show any signs of that attitude towards them? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he was not very talkative when they came for a visit. +Sometimes he would even quarrel with them. + +Mr. RANKIN. When he quarreled with them, was it in regard to political +ideas or what subjects? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they would not agree with him when he talked on +political matters. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any conversation that you can describe to us? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Of course it is difficult to remember all the +conversations. But I know that they had a difference of opinion with +reference to political matters. My Russian friends did not approve of +everything. I am trying to formulate it more exactly. They did not like +the fact that he was an American who had gone to Russia. I think that +is all. All that I can remember. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did they say about---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. Simply I would be busy, and I didn't listen to +the conversation. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you recall anything else about the conversation or the +substance of it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did you first consider the possibility of returning to +the Soviet Union? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I never considered that, but I was forced to because Lee +insisted on it. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you considered it, as you were forced to, by his +insistence, do you know when it was with reference to your first +request to the Embassy, which was February 17, 1963? + +Mrs. OSWALD. February 17? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was a couple of weeks before that, at the +beginning of February. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband know about the letter you sent to the +Embassy on February 17? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. He handed me the paper, a pencil, and said, +"Write." + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what to put in the letter, or was that your +own drafting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I knew myself what I had to write, and these were my +words. What could I do if my husband didn't want to live with me? At +least that is what I thought. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever have arguments with your husband about smoking +and drinking wine, other things like that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. About drinking wine, no. But he didn't like the fact that +I smoked, because he neither smoked nor drank. It would have been +better if he had smoked and drank. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us approximately when you first met Ruth Paine? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Soon after New Years--I think it was in January. + +Mr. RANKIN. Would that be 1963? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you describe the circumstances when you met her? + +Mrs. OSWALD. We were invited, together with George De Mohrenschildt +and his wife, to the home of his friend, an American. And Ruth was +acquainted with that American. She was also visiting there. And there +were a number of other people there, Americans. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who was this friend? Do you recall? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember his last name. If you would suggest, +perhaps I could say. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was that Mr. Glover? + +Mrs. OSWALD. What is his first name? + +Mr. RANKIN. Everett. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I don't know his last name. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk to Mrs. Paine in Russian at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. A little, yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine ever visit you at Elsbeth Street? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At Neely, on Neely Street. + +Mr. RANKIN. But not at Elsbeth? + +Mrs. OSWALD. We moved soon after that acquaintance. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did your husband treat June? Was he a good father? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, very good. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice any difference in his attitude towards your +child after you saw this change in his personality? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe to the Commission how your husband +treated the baby, and some of his acts, what he did? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He would walk with June, play with her, feed her, change +diapers, take photographs--everything that fathers generally do. + +Mr. RANKIN. He showed considerable affection for her at all times, did +he? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. If I would punish June, he would punish me. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did you first meet Michael Paine? + +Mrs. OSWALD. After I became acquainted with Ruth and she visited me for +the first time, she asked me to come for a visit to her. This was on a +Friday. Her husband, Michael, came for us and drove us to their home in +Irving. + +Mr. RANKIN. They were living together at that time, were they? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did Michael Paine know Russian? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. At the time of the Walker incident, do you recall whether +your husband had his job or had lost it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. You had said that this had happened on a Wednesday, and +it seems to me that it was on a Friday that he was told that he was +discharged. He didn't tell me about it until Monday. + +Mr. RANKIN. But it was on the preceding Friday that he was discharged, +was it not? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, not the preceding Friday--the Friday after the +incident. That is what he told me. + +Mr. RANKIN. If he had lost his job before the Walker incident, you +didn't know it then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. On the day of the Walker shooting did he appear to go to +work as usual? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And when did he return that day, do you recall? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Late at night, about 11. + +Mr. RANKIN. He did not come home for dinner then, before? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he had come home, and then left again. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice any difference in his actions when he +returned home and had dinner? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he appear to be excited, nervous? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, he was quite calm. But it seemed to me that inside he +was tense. + +Mr. RANKIN. How could you tell that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I could tell by his face. I knew Lee. Sometimes when some +thing would happen he wouldn't tell me about it, but I could see it in +his eyes, that something had happened. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you saw it this day, did you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did he leave the home after dinner? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was about 7. Perhaps 7:30. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe whether he took any gun with him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. He went downstairs. We lived on the second floor. He +said, "Bye-bye." + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you look to see if the gun had been taken when he did +not return? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't look to see. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, we have gone our hour. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I think we will take a 10 minute recess now, so you +might refresh yourself. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. + +(Brief recess.) + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may +continue. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, you told us about your knowledge about the +trip to Mexico and said that you were under oath and were going to tell +us all about what you knew. + +Did your husband ever ask you not to disclose what you knew about the +Mexican trip? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And when was that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Before he left. I had remained and he was supposed to +leave on the next day, and he warned me not to tell anyone about it. + +Mr. RANKIN. After he returned to Dallas from his Mexico trip, did he +say anything to you then about not telling he had been to Mexico? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he asked me whether I had told Ruth about it or +anyone else, and I told him no, and he said that I should keep quiet +about it. + +Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 1 for identification, and ask you +if you recall seeing that document before. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this is the note that I found in connection with the +Walker incident. + +Mr. RANKIN. That you already testified about? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And there is attached to it a purported English translation. + +The CHAIRMAN. Do you want that marked and introduced at this time, Mr. +Rankin? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes, I would like to offer the document. + +The CHAIRMAN. The document may be marked Exhibit 1 and offered in +evidence. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what your husband meant when he said on +that note, "The Red Cross also will help you." + +Mrs. OSWALD. I understand that if he were arrested and my money would +run out, I would be able to go to the Red Cross for help. + +Mr. RANKIN. Had you ever discussed that possibility before you found +the note? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why he left you the address book? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Because it contained the addresses and telephone numbers +of his and my friends in Russia and here. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you had seen that book before and knew its contents, +did you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 2 for identification and ask you if +you know what that is. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not that is a photograph of the +Walker house in Dallas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't see it--at least--taken from this view I can't +recognize it. I know that the photograph of Walker's home which I saw +showed a two-story house. But I don't recognize it from this view. I +never saw the house itself at any time in my life. + +Mr. RANKIN. Does Exhibit 2 for identification appear to be the picture +that you described yesterday of the Walker house that you thought your +husband had taken and put in his book? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. Perhaps this was in his notebook. But I don't remember +this particular one. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rankin, do you want this in the record? + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, she hasn't been able to identify that +sufficiently. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. Perhaps there are some other photographs there +that I might be able to recognize. + +Mr. RANKIN. I will present some more to you, and possibly you can then +pick out the Walker house. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I know these photographs. + +Mr. RANKIN. I now hand you a photograph which has been labeled Exhibit +4 for identification. I ask if you can identify the subject of that +photograph, or those photographs. + +Mrs. OSWALD. All of them? + +Mr. RANKIN. Whichever ones you can. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I know one shows Walker's house. Another is a photograph +from Leningrad. P-3--this is probably New Orleans. P-4--Leningrad. It +is a photograph showing the castle square in Leningrad. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you point out by number the photograph of the Walker +house? + +Mrs. OSWALD. P-2. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether the photographs on Exhibit 4 for +identification were part of your husband's photographs? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I offer Exhibit 4 for identification in +evidence. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 2, and received +in evidence.) + +Mr. DULLES. What is being offered--the whole of it, or just P-2? + +Mr. RANKIN. No, all of it--because she identified the others, too, as a +part of the photographs that belonged to her husband. And she pointed +out P-2 as being the Walker residence. + +When did you first see this photograph of the Walker residence, P-2, in +this Exhibit 2? + +Mrs. OSWALD. After the Walker incident Lee showed it to me. + +Mr. RANKIN. And how did you know it was a photograph of the Walker +residence? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that. + +Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 3 for identification. I ask you if you +can identify the photographs there. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, these are all our photographs. P-1 is Walker's house. +P-4 and P-3 is a photograph showing me and a girlfriend of mine in +Minsk, after a New Year's party, on the morning, on January 1. Before I +was married. This was taken early in the morning, after we had stayed +overnight in the suburbs. P-5 shows Paul--Pavel Golovachev. He is +assembling a television set. He sent us this photograph. He is from +Minsk. He worked in the same factory as Lee did. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us which one is the picture of the Walker +house on that exhibit? + +Mrs. OSWALD. P-1. + +Mr. RANKIN. And when did you first see that exhibit, P-1, of Exhibit 3? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Together with the other one. P-2 and P-6, I know that they +are Lee's photographs, but I don't know what they depict. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you shown the P-1 photograph of that Exhibit 3 at +the same time you were shown the other one that you have identified +regarding the Walker house? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me that that is so. I don't remember exactly. +It is hard to remember. + +Mr. RANKIN. And was that the evening after your husband returned from +the Walker shooting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. This was on one of the succeeding days. + +Mr. RANKIN. By succeeding, you mean within two or three days after the +shooting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence Exhibit 3. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 3, and was +received in evidence.) + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the photograph, the first one that you +showed me. I only assumed that was Walker's house. + +Mr. RANKIN. But the other ones, you do remember those photographs? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, the others I do. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you say you do not remember the picture of the Walker +house, you are referring to the Exhibit 2 for identification that we +did not offer in evidence, that I will show you now? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that your husband showed you any other +exhibits that were pictures of the Walker house at the time he +discussed the Walker shooting with you, beyond those that I have shown +you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. I shall hand you Exhibit---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. There was some railroad--not just a photograph of a house. +Perhaps there were some others. There were several photographs. + +Mr. RANKIN. I shall hand you Exhibit 4 for identification---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. One photograph with a car. + +Mr. RANKIN. ----if you can recall the photographs on that exhibit. + +Mrs. OSWALD. As for P-1 and P-2, I don't know what they are. + +P-3, that is Lee in the Army. + +P-4, I don't know what that is. + +P-5, I did see this photograph with Lee--he showed it to me after the +incident. + +Mr. RANKIN. When your husband showed you the photograph P-5, did +he discuss with you what that showed, how it related to the Walker +shooting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I simply see that this is a photograph of a railroad. +It was in that book. And I guessed, myself, that it had some sort of +relationship to the incident. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence photographs P-3 and P-5 on this exhibit. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted, and take the next number. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 4, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, I shall hand you Exhibit 6 for identification and ask +you if you recognize those two photographs. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. These photographs I know, both of them. They seem to +be identical. Walker's house. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did you first see those exhibits? + +Mrs. OSWALD. After the incident. + +Mr. RANKIN. About the same time that you saw the other pictures of the +Walker house that you have described? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband tell you why he had these photographs? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't tell me, but I guessed, myself--I concluded +myself that these photographs would help him in that business. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is the business of the shooting at the Walker house? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence the two photographs in this exhibit. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted and take the next number. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 5, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Before you told the Commission about the Walker shooting, +and your knowledge, did you tell anyone else about it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, to the members of the Secret Service and the FBI. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell your mother-in-law? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I also told his mother about it. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did you tell his mother about the incident? + +Mrs. OSWALD. After Lee was arrested, on Saturday--he was arrested on +Friday. I don't remember when I met with his mother--whether it was on +the same Friday--yes, Friday evening. I met her at the police station. +From there we went to Ruth Paine's where I lived at that time. And she +remained overnight, stayed overnight there. I had a photograph of Lee +with the rifle, which I gave. At that time I spoke very little English. +I explained as best I could about it. And that is why I showed her the +photograph. And I told her that Lee had wanted to kill Walker. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, turning to the period when you were in New Orleans, +did you write to the Russian Embassy about going to Russia, returning +to Russia at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was that about the first part of July, that you wrote? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Probably. + +Mr. RANKIN. And then did you write a second letter to follow up the +first one? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 6 for identification and ask you if that +is the first letter that you sent to the Embassy. Take your time and +look at it. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This was not the first letter, but it was the first letter +written from New Orleans. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you examine the photostat that has just been handed +to you, and tell us whether or not that was the first letter that you +wrote to the Embassy about this matter? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, this is a reply to my first letter. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you examine the one that you now have, and state +whether that is the first letter? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this was the first. This was only the declaration. +But there was a letter in addition to it. + +Mr. RANKIN. The declaration was a statement that you wished to return +to the Soviet Russia? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, about granting me a visa. + +Mr. RANKIN. And what date does that bear? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It is dated March 17, 1963. + +Mr. RANKIN. And did you send it with your letter about the date that it +bears? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +I don't know--perhaps a little later, because I was not very anxious to +send this. + +Mr. RANKIN. But you did send it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And it might have been within a few days or a few weeks of +that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Do we have the date of the second letter? + +Mr. RANKIN. I want to go step by step. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes, I understand. That is not introduced yet. + +Mr. RANKIN. It might be confusing if we get them out of order. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this is the first letter. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, the photostatic document that you have just referred +to as being the first letter, does it bear a date? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It says there the 17th of February. + +Mr. RANKIN. And do you know that that letter had attached to it your +declaration that you just referred to? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it seems to me. Perhaps it was attached to the next +letter. I am not sure. + +Mr. RANKIN. This letter of February 17 that you referred to as the +first letter is in your handwriting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you examine the translation into English that +is attached to it and inform us whether or not that is a correct +translation? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I can't do that, because---- + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Interpreter, can you help us in that regard, and tell +her whether it is a correct translation? + +Mr. KRIMER. If I may translate it from the English, she could check it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Would you kindly do that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is a quite correct translation. I didn't want to, but +I had to compose some such letters. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence the photostatic copy of the letter in +Russian as Exhibit 6. + +The CHAIRMAN. Together with the translation that is attached to it? + +Mr. RANKIN. Together with the translation that is attached to it as +Exhibit 7. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 6 and 7, +respectively, and received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. I hand you again the declaration, Exhibit 8, and ask you if +that accompanied the first letter, Exhibit 6, that you have referred to? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember whether it accompanied the first letter +or the second letter with which I had enclosed some photographs and +filled out questionnaires. + +Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 9 and ask you if that is the second +letter that you have just referred to. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, this was perhaps the third. Perhaps I could help you, +if you would show me all the letters, I would show you the sequence. + +Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 9, dated March 8, 1963, and ask you +if you can tell whether that is the letter which accompanied the +declaration. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is a reply from the Embassy, a reply to my first +letter. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, may we have a short recess to get the +original exhibits that we have prepared, and I think we can expedite +our hearing. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well. We will have a short recess. + +(Brief recess.) + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order. We will proceed. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we will see if we have these in proper order +now. + +I will call your attention to the photostats of the declaration and +the accompanying papers that I shall now call Exhibit 8 to replace the +references to Exhibit 8 and 9 that we made in prior testimony, and ask +you to examine that and see if they were sent together by you to the +Embassy. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I sent this after I received an answer from the Embassy, +an answer to my first letter. This is one and the same. Two separate +photostats of the same declaration. All of these documents were +attached to my second letter after the answer to my first. + +Mr. RANKIN. I call your attention to Exhibit 9, and ask you if that is +the answer to your first letter that you have just referred to. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this is the answer to that letter. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you compare the translation? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The only thing is that the address and the telephone +number of the Embassy are not shown in the Russian original. They are +in the translation. + +Mr. RANKIN. Otherwise the translation is correct, is it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Otherwise, yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I ask leave to substitute the Exhibit No. 8 +for what I have called 9, as the reply of the Embassy, so that we won't +be confused about the order of these. + +The CHAIRMAN. The correction may be made. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence the original and the translation of +Exhibit 8, except for the address of the Embassy, which was not on the +original. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted, and take the next number. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 8, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, as I understand, what I will call Exhibit 9 now, to +correct the order in which these letters were sent to the Embassy, +was your response to the letter of the Embassy dated March 8, is that +correct? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you compare the translation with the interpreter and +advise us if it is correct? + +Mr. KRIMER. It says, "Application" in the translation; the Russian word +is "Declaration". + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you note that correction, Mr. Krimer, please? + +Mr. KRIMER. In pencil? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mr. KRIMER. Crossing out the word "application". + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. KRIMER. Sir, this was a printed questionnaire, and there is a +translator note on here which states that since printed questions are +given both in Russian and English translation, only the answer portion +of the document is being translated. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. RANKIN. You have now examined Exhibit 9 and the translation into +English from that exhibit where it was in Russian and compared them +with the interpreter, have you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, correct. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you find the translation is correct? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 9, being the Russian +communications, and the English translations. + +The CHAIRMAN. The documents may be admitted with the next number. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 9, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you recall that in the letter from the +Embassy of March 8, which is known as Commission's Exhibit 8, that you +were told that the time of processing would take 5 to 6 months? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss that with your husband? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And about when did you do that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. What is the date of that letter? + +Mr. RANKIN. March 8. + +Mrs. OSWALD. At that time we did not discuss it. We discussed it in New +Orleans. Or more correctly, we thought that if everything is in order, +I would be able to leave before the birth of my second child. + +Mr. RANKIN. And did you discuss that idea with your husband? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you think that you discussed it with him while you were +at New Orleans? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that it is also requested in the letter of +March 8 from the Embassy, Commission's Exhibit 8, that you furnish one +or two letters from relatives residing in the Soviet Union who were +inviting you to live with them? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but I didn't have any such letters and I did not +enclose any. + +Mr. RANKIN. You never did send such letters to the Embassy, did you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. After you sent Exhibit 9 to the Embassy, did you have +further correspondence with them? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 10, a letter purporting to be from +the Embassy dated April 18, and ask you if you recall that. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I remember that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you please compare the translation with the Russian? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, the translation is correct. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer the exhibit in evidence, together with the +translation. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted with the next number. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 10, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you note that the Embassy invited you to come and visit +them personally? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever do that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. I hand you a letter purporting to be from the Embassy, +dated June 4, marked Exhibit 11, and ask you if you recall receiving +that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This is a second request to visit the Embassy. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you please compare the translation with the Russian? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Correct. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 11, being the Russian letter +from the Embassy together with the English translation. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 11, and +received in evidence.) + +The CHAIRMAN. We will now recess for lunch. + +The Commission will reconvene at 2 o'clock. + +(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the Commission recessed.) + + + + +Afternoon Session + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED + + +The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m. + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will convene. + +Mr. Rankin, you may continue. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will now give you Exhibit 12 to examine and +ask you to compare the Russian with the English translation. + +Mrs. OSWALD. The translation is correct. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 12, being the Russian letter, +and the English translation. + +The CHAIRMAN. The documents are admitted under that number. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 12, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, this Exhibit 13 that you have just examined in +Russian, is that your letter, Mrs. Oswald, to the Embassy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Is that No. 12? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it is. + +Mr. RANKIN. And is it in your handwriting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you find any date on the letter? I didn't. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I probably didn't date it. No. I wrote this from New +Orleans. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell the Commission the approximate date you wrote +it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. What was the date of the preceding letter, No. 11--Exhibit +No. 11? + +Mr. RANKIN. June 4, 1963. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This was probably in July, but I don't know the date. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you notice there was a "P.S." on Exhibit 12? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Referring to an application by your husband? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And was an application for your husband for a visa included +or enclosed with Exhibit 12 when you sent it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee told me that he had sent an application, but it was he +who put this letter in an envelope and addressed it, so I don't know +whether it was there or not. + +Mr. RANKIN. And when you say that it was he that put the letter into +the envelope and addressed it, you mean this Exhibit 12, that was a +letter that you had written? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do I understand you correctly that you do not know whether +his application was included because he handled the mailing of it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 13 and ask you if you recall that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember this. He did not write this in my +presence. But it is Lee's handwriting. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Krimer, will you please translate it for her so she +will know the contents. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Why "separately"--the word "separately" here is underlined. + +Mr. RANKIN. I was going to ask you. But since you have not seen it +before, I guess you cannot help us. + +Is this the first time that you knew that he had ever asked that his +visa be handled separately from yours? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I didn't know this. Because I hadn't seen this letter. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 13. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 13, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Is the word "separately" the last word of the letter that +you are referring to--that is the word that you asked about? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Was that underlined by Lee? + +Mr. RANKIN. That is the way we received it, Mrs. Oswald. We assume it +was underlined by your husband. We know that it was not underlined by +the Commission, and no one in the Government that had anything to do +with it has ever told us that they had anything to do with underlining +it. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think that perhaps he asked for that visa to be +considered separately because the birth of the child might complicate +matters, and perhaps he thought it would speed it up if they do +consider it separately. + +Mr. RANKIN. In connection with that thought, I will hand you Exhibit +14, and ask you to examine that and tell us whether you have seen that +before. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you please compare the translation in English? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, the translation is all right. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence the letter in Russian, Exhibit 14, and +the English translation. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted under that number. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 14, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any impression that your husband may not have +planned to go back to Russia himself, but was merely trying to arrange +for you and your daughter to go back? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At that time I did not think so, but now I think perhaps. +Because he planned to go to Cuba. + +Mr. RANKIN. By that you mean you think he may have planned to go to +Cuba and never go beyond Cuba, but stay in Cuba? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think that in time he would have wanted to come and see +me. + +Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 15 and ask you whether you remember +having seen that before. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell whether your husband's handwriting is on that +exhibit? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The signature is his, yes. I would like to have it +translated. + +Mr. RANKIN. Would you translate it for her, please, Mr. Krimer? + +Mrs. OSWALD. A crazy letter. Perhaps from this I could conclude that he +did want to go to the Soviet Union--but now I am lost, I don't know. +Because--perhaps because nothing came out of his Cuban business, +perhaps that is why he decided to go to the Soviet Union. The letter is +not too polite, in my opinion. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 15. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 15, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I think in the examination about this +letter, if I would circulate it to the Commission it would be a +little clearer what it is all about--if you could have a moment or +two to examine it, I think it would help in your understanding of the +examination. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This was typed on the typewriter belonging to Ruth. + +Mr. RANKIN. You can tell that by the looks of the typing, can you, Mrs. +Oswald? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know, but I know that he was typing there. I +don't know what he was typing. + +Mr. RANKIN. And it is Ruth Paine's typewriter that you are referring +to, when you say Ruth? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Ruth Paine. Because Lee did not have a typewriter, and it +is hardly likely that he would have had it typed somewhere else. + +Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 16, which purports to be the envelope +for the letter, Exhibit 15. Have you ever seen that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The envelope I did see. I did not see the letter, but I +did see the envelope. Lee had retyped it some 10 times or so. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall or could you clarify for us about the date on +the envelope--whether it is November 2 or November 12? + +Mrs. OSWALD. November 12. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 16. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 16, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. I might call your attention, Mrs. Oswald, to the fact that +Exhibit 15, the letter, is dated November 9. Does that help you any? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Then this must be 12. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is the only way you can determine it, is it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with the mailing of this +letter, Exhibit 15? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Yesterday you testified to the fact that your husband told +you about his trip to Mexico when he returned, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where were you when he told you about it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In the home of Mrs. Paine, in my room. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was there anyone other than yourself and your husband +present when he told you about it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us in as much detail as you can remember just +what he said about the trip at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Everything that I could remember I told you yesterday. I +don't remember any more about it. + +Mr. RANKIN. At that time---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. But I asked him that we not go to Russia, I told him that +I did not want to, and he said, "Okay." + +Mr. RANKIN. That was in this same conversation, after he had told you +about the trip to Mexico? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. When he asked you not to tell anyone about the trip to +Mexico, did he tell you why he asked you to do that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I knew that he was secretive, and that he loved to +make secrets of things. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you know the Comrade Kostin that is referred to in this +letter of November 8, Exhibit 15? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I never wrote to him. I don't know. I don't know where he +got that name from. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband say anything about Comrade Kostin and his +visit with him at the embassy in Mexico City, when he told you about +the trip? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He did not name him. He didn't tell me his name. But he +told me he was a very pleasant, sympathetic person, who greeted him, +welcomed him there. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband say anything to you about what he meant +when he said he could not take a chance on requesting a new visa unless +he used a real name, so he returned to the United States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't tell me about it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand that he had used any assumed name about +going to Mexico? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. He never told you anything of that kind? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. After Lee returned from Mexico, I lived in Dallas, +and Lee gave me his phone number and then when he changed his +apartment--Lee lived in Dallas, and he gave me his phone number. And +then when he moved, he left me another phone number. + +And once when he did not come to visit during the weekend, I telephoned +him and asked for him by name--rather, Ruth telephoned him and it +turned out there was no one there by that name. When he telephoned +me again on Monday, I told him that we had telephoned him but he was +unknown at that number. + +Then he said that he had lived there under an assumed name. He asked me +to remove the notation of the telephone number in Ruth's phone book, +but I didn't want to do that. I asked him then, "Why did you give us a +phone number, when we do call we cannot get you by name?" + +He was very angry, and he repeated that I should remove the notation of +the phone number from the phone book. And, of course, we had a quarrel. +I told him that this was another of his foolishness, some more of his +foolishness. I told Ruth Paine about this. It was incomprehensible to +me why he was so secretive all the time. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he give you any explanation of why he was using an +assumed name at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he did not want his landlady to know his real +name because she might read in the paper of the fact that he had been +in Russia and that he had been questioned. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing. And also he did not want the FBI to know where he +lived. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he did not want the FBI to know where +he lived? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Because their visits were not very pleasant for him and +he thought that he loses jobs because the FBI visits the place of his +employment. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, if he was using an assumed name during the trip in +Mexico, you didn't know about it, is that correct? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't know, that is correct. + +Mr. RANKIN. Before the trip to Mexico, did your husband tell you that +he did not expect to contact the Soviet Embassy there about the visa? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he was going to visit the Soviet Embassy, but +more for the purpose of getting to Cuba, to try to get to Cuba. I think +that was more than anything a masking of his purpose. He thought that +this would help. + +Mr. RANKIN. You mean it was a masking of his purpose to visit the +Soviet Embassy in Mexico, or to write it in this letter? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't understand the question. + +Mr. RANKIN. You noticed where he said in this letter "I had not planned +to contact the Soviet Embassy in Mexico," did you not? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Why hadn't he planned that? + +Mr. RANKIN. That is what I am trying to find out from you. + +Did he ever tell you that he didn't plan to visit the Soviet Embassy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is not the truth. He did want to contact the embassy. + +Mr. RANKIN. And he told you before he went to Mexico that he planned to +visit the Soviet Embassy, did he? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say to you before he went to Mexico that he +planned to communicate with the Soviet Embassy in Havana? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he said that if he would be able to get to Cuba, with +the intention of living there, he would get in touch with the Soviet +Embassy for the purpose of bringing me there. Or for him to go to +Russia. Because sometimes he really sincerely wanted to go to Russia +and live and sometimes not. He did not know, himself. He was very +changeable. + +Mr. RANKIN. But in Exhibit 15, Mrs. Oswald, he refers to the fact that +he hadn't been able to reach the Soviet Embassy in Havana as planned, +and then he says, "The Embassy there would have had time to complete +our business." + +Now, did he discuss that at all with you before he went to Mexico? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. If he said in Mexico City that he wanted to visit the +Soviet Embassy in Havana, the reason for it was only that he thereby +would be able to get to Cuba. + +Is this understandable? Does this clarify the matter or not? + +Mr. RANKIN. The difficulty, Mrs. Oswald, with my understanding of +Exhibit 15 is that he purports to say, as I read the letter, that if he +had been able to reach the Soviet Embassy in Havana, he would have been +able to complete his business about the visa, and he wouldn't have had +to get in touch with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City at all. + +Mrs. OSWALD. The thing is that one cannot go to Cuba--that the only +legal way is via Mexico City. And, therefore, he went to the Soviet +Embassy there in Mexico City and told them that he wanted to visit the +Soviet Embassy in Havana, but only for the purpose of getting into Cuba. + +I don't think he would have concluded his business there. I don't +think that you understand that Lee has written that letter in a quite +involved manner. It is not very logical. I don't know whether it is +clear to you or not. + +Mr. RANKIN. I appreciate, Mrs. Oswald, your interpretation of it. + +I was trying to find out also whether your husband had told you +anything about what he meant or what he did or whether he had tried to +contact the Embassy in Havana, as he says in this letter. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I don't know of this letter. I only know that Lee +wanted to get to Cuba by any means. + +Mr. RANKIN. Then he next proceeds to say, "Of course the Soviet Embassy +was not at fault. They were, as I say, unprepared". As I read that, +I understand that he was trying to let the Embassy in Washington +know that the Mexico City Embassy had not been notified by him, and, +therefore, was unprepared. + +Now, did he say anything like that to you after his return to Mexico? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Why did the Embassy in Washington have to notify the +Embassy in Mexico City that Lee Oswald was arriving? + +It is not that I am asking. It seems to me that this is not a normal +thing. + +Mr. RANKIN. The question is did he say anything to you about it when he +got back? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said that when he went to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico +City they had promised him that they would write a letter to the +Embassy in Washington. + +Please excuse me, but it is very difficult for me to read the involved +thoughts of Lee. + +I think that he was confused himself, and I certainly am. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is that all that you can recall that was said about that +matter? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Then he goes on to say---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. I only know that his basic desire was to get to +Cuba by any means, and that all the rest of it was window dressing for +that purpose. + +Mr. RANKIN. Then in this Exhibit 15 he proceeds to say, "The Cuban +Consulate was guilty of a gross breach of regulations." Do you know +what he meant by that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. What regulations--what are the regulations? + +Mr. RANKIN. I am trying to find out from you. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know about that. I don't know what happened. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say what regulations he thought were breached, +or that the Cuban Embassy didn't carry out regulations when he returned +from his trip and told you about what happened there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Then he goes on to say in the Exhibit, "I am glad he has +since been replaced." + +Do you know whom he was referring to? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have no knowledge of it. I think that if the person +to whom this letter was addressed would read the letter he wouldn't +understand anything, either. + +Mr. RANKIN. Your husband goes on in Exhibit 15 to say, "The Federal +Bureau of Investigation is not now interested in my activities in the +progressive organization 'Fair Play for Cuba Committee' of which I was +secretary in New Orleans (State of Louisiana) since I no longer reside +in that state." + +Do you know why he would say anything like that to the Embassy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Because he was crazy. + +He wrote this in order to emphasize his importance. He was no secretary +of any--he was not a secretary of any organization. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know that he had received any inquiry from the +Embassy or anyone of the Soviet Union about the matters that he is +telling about here? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Then he goes on to say, "However, the FBI has visited us +here in Dallas, Texas, on November 1. Agent James P. Hosty"--do you +know whether there was such a visit by that man? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And was he referring to the man that you know as James P. +Hosty? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know his last name. He gave us his telephone +number, but it seems to me that his name was different. + +Mr. RANKIN. After you received the telephone number, what did you do +with it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He gave the telephone number to Ruth, and she, in turn, +passed it on to Lee. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he put it in a book or did anything +with it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He took the note with him to Dallas. I don't know what he +did with it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did the agent also give his license number for his car to +Mrs. Paine or to you or to your husband? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. But Lee had asked me that if an FBI agent were to +call, that I note down his automobile license number, and I did that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you give the license number to him when you noted it +down? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, he goes on to say that this agent, James P. Hosty +"warned me that if I engaged in FPCC activities in Texas the FBI will +again take an 'interest' in me." + +Do you remember anything about anything like that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know why he said that in there, because if he has +in mind the man who visited us, that man had never seen Lee. He was +talking to me and to Mrs. Paine. But he had never met Lee. Perhaps this +is another agent, not the one who visited us. + +But I don't know whether Lee had talked to him or not. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether any FBI agent had ever warned your +husband that if he engaged in any Fair Play for Cuba activities in +Texas, the FBI would be again interested in him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't know that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Then in the exhibit he goes on to say, "This agent also +'suggested' to Marina Nichilyeva that she could remain in the United +States under FBI protection." + +Did you ever hear of anything like that before? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I had not been proposed anything of the sort at any time. + +The only thing the agent did say is that if I had ever any kind of +difficulties or troubles in the sense that someone would try to force +me to do something, to become an agent, then I should get in touch with +him, and that if I don't want to do this, that they would help me. But +they never said that I live here and that I must remain here under +their protection. + +Mr. RANKIN. Then in this Exhibit 15 he goes on to explain what he means +by the word "protection", saying "That is, she could defect from the +Soviet Union, of course." Do you remember anybody saying anything like +that to you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, no one said anything like that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone at any time, while you were in the United +States, suggest that you become an agent of any agency of the United +States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, never. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone from the Soviet Union suggest that you be an +agent for that government, or any of its agencies? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, in this Exhibit 15, your husband goes on to say, "I +and my wife strongly protested tactics by the notorious FBI." + +Do you know of any protest of that kind, or any action of that kind? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know of any protests, but simply that I said +that I would prefer not to get these visits, because they have a very +exciting and disturbing effect upon my husband. But it was not a +protest. This was simply a request. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you never made any protests against anyone asking you +to act as an agent or to defect to the United States because no one +asked you that, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No one ever asked me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of anything that you could tell the Commission +in regard to these matters in this letter, Exhibit 15, that would shed +more light on what your husband meant or what he was trying to do, that +you have not already told us? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Everything that I could tell you with reference to this +letter I have told you. + +The CHAIRMAN. I think we will take a short recess now, about 10 minutes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I would like to help you, but I simply don't know, I +cannot. + +(Brief recess) + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. + +Mr. Rankin, you may proceed. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will hand you again Exhibit 14 and the +translation from the Russian and call your attention to the urgency of +your request there. I ask you, was that your idea to press for help +from the Embassy in regard to the visa, or your husband's? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Of course my husband. + +Mr. RANKIN. At the time of Exhibit 14, then, you were not anxious to +return to Russia? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I never wanted to return but Lee insisted and there is +nothing else I could do. But sometimes when I wrote these letters, I +felt very lonely--since my husband didn't want me, I felt perhaps this +would be the best way. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the Spanish language? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps five words. + +Mr. RANKIN. Have you given it any study? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I have a Spanish textbook of the Spanish language and +I had intended to study even while I was still in Russia, but I never +did. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband ever study Spanish that you know of? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't study it, but before his trip to Mexico he would +sit down with the textbook and look at it. + +Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 17 and ask you if you recall having seen +that before. + +Mrs. OSWALD. May I take it out? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. June seems to have played with it. This was Lee's study of +Spanish perhaps because this was all photographed, it is soiled. Here I +helped Lee. I wrote some Spanish words. + +Mr. RANKIN. Does that Exhibit 17 have any of your husband's handwriting +on it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Some of it is my handwriting and some of it is Lee's +handwriting. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us when he was trying to study Spanish? Was it +at any time with regard to the time when he planned to go to Cuba? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. About when did he start? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In August, in New Orleans, 1963. + +Mr. RANKIN. And whatever he did in this notebook, Exhibit 17, he did at +that time or thereafter? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, this was in September. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he do whatever writing he did in connection with the +study of the Spanish language in Exhibit 17 at New Orleans in August or +after that date? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Do you want to know whether this was earlier than August or later? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, not earlier. This was in September, not in August. + +Mr. RANKIN. And did he do anything in the writing of what is in Exhibit +17 in the study of the Spanish language at Dallas, that you know of? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 17. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked with the next number and received in +evidence. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 17, and +received in evidence.) + +Mrs. OSWALD. How a simple notebook can become a matter of material +evidence--the Spanish words in it, and June's scribbling on it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Returning to the time that your husband came back from +Mexico City to Dallas, can you tell us what type of luggage he brought +back with him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He had a military type raincoat with him and a small bag +with a zipper, blue in color. + +Mr. RANKIN. As far as you recall he did not have two bags that he +brought back with him from Mexico? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he spend the first weekend of October 4 to 6 with you +at the Paines? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, not the whole weekend. When he returned he stayed +overnight and then he went to Dallas. But he returned on Saturday or +Friday evening. And he remained until Monday. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice any change in your husband after this trip +to Mexico? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In my opinion, he was disappointed at not being able to +get to Cuba, and he didn't have any great desire to do so any more +because he had run into, as he himself said--into bureaucracy and red +tape. And he changed for the better. He began to treat me better. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us how he treated you better? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He helped me more--although he always did help. But he was +more attentive. Perhaps this was because he didn't live together with +me but stayed in Dallas. Perhaps, also because we expected a child and +he was in somewhat an elated mood. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband have any money with him when he returned +from Mexico? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he had some left. But I never counted how much money +he had in his wallet. That is why I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was it a small or a large amount or do you know that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. What would be a large amount for me would not be a large +amount for you. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, can you give us any estimate of what you think he had? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He might have had $50 or $70, thereabouts. It is necessary +sometimes to make a joke. Otherwise, it gets boring. + +Mr. RANKIN. After the first weekend, after your husband returned, which +he spent at the Paines, as you have described, where did he live in +Dallas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he rented a room in Oak Cliff, but I don't +know the address. I didn't ask, because I didn't need it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know that he lived with a Mrs. Bledsoe at any time +in Dallas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In what sense do you mean "lived with"? + +Mr. RANKIN. I mean roomed in her home. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. That was a place on Marsallis Street? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know about it. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did he return from Irving to Dallas at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Ruth met him at the bus station at that time and drove him +home. By bus. + +Mr. RANKIN. You said before that you learned about the depository job +at some neighbor's home, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. In whose home was that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know her last name. When you walk out of the Paine +house, it is the first house to the right. I am trying to remember. +Perhaps later I will. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was it the lady of that house who told you, or someone that +was a guest there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps you know the name. + +Mr. RANKIN. We don't know the name of the lady next door. We know a +number of names, but not by the location. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Her first name is Dorothy. And there was another woman +there, another neighbor, who said that her brother worked at the +depository, and that as far as she knew, there was a vacancy there. + +Mr. RANKIN. And what was the name of that neighbor whose brother worked +at the depository? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was that Mrs. Randle? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I might know her first name if you mention +it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is there a Linnie Mae Randle that you remember? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was she a sister of Mr. Frazier? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know such people. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know a Mr. Frazier that had a job at the depository? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't know his name. I knew that it was a young man. I +don't think he was 18 yet. + +Mr. RANKIN. And was he the brother of this friend who was at the +neighbor's house? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And he was the one that your husband rode from Irving into +Dallas from time to time to go to work, did he? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, after Lee was already working this boy would bring +Lee and take him back with him to Dallas. + +Mr. RANKIN. And when did he take him, ordinarily? + +Mrs. OSWALD. 8 o'clock in the morning. + +Mr. RANKIN. And did he take him on Monday morning? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Usually each week he would take him on Monday morning? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee came for a weekend, yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And then when did he bring him back from Dallas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At 5:30 on Friday. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband ever come in the middle of the week? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, only during the last week when all of this happened +with reference to the assassination of the President--he came on a +Thursday. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine have anything to do with your husband +getting this job at the depository? + +Mrs. OSWALD. She had no direct connection with it, but an indirect +connection, of course. I lived with her and she talked to a neighbor +and mentioned that Lee was out of work. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was it Mrs. Paine that found out about the job, then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And she telephoned there and asked whether they had +a job available. They didn't say anything specific but they asked that +Lee come there on the following day. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you find out whether your husband did go there the +following day? + +Mrs. OSWALD. On the following day he went there, had a talk with them, +and he telephoned that he had already received the job. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he telephone to you or to Mrs. Paine about getting the +job? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He telephoned me. But, of course, he thanked Ruth. + +Mr. RANKIN. And when did he start on the job? Was there two or three +days before he got the job and started, or more than that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he started on the day following being +accepted for the job. I think it was either on the 14th, 15th, or 16th +of October. + +Mr. RANKIN. When he was staying at Mrs. Bledsoe's rooming house, did he +call you and give you the number there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall where he was when he gave this fictitious +name? + +Mrs. OSWALD. What do you mean where he was? From where he telephoned? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes, or the number that he gave you--that is the rooming +house that he was at when he used this fictitious name, and you told us +you called there. + +Mrs. OSWALD. He lived at first in one place, and then he changed. It +was the last place where he had given a fictitious name. I don't know +what name he lived under in the first place, because I never telephoned +him. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the name that he lived under in the second +place, when you did call him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. You don't remember the fictitious name that he gave you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I read in the paper after everything happened, but at that +time I didn't know. He said that his last name was Lee. He didn't say +that. I read that in the paper. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did that remind you, then, that that was the name they gave +you when you called and he answered the telephone? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, no one told me anything. I didn't know under what name +he lived there. + +Mr. RANKIN. But you found out that he was not living under his own +name, is that what you meant before? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. After he got his job, did he return the next weekend to see +you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember whether that time he returned was on Friday +or Saturday? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It was on Friday, October 18. It was his birthday. + +He stopped with Ruth. On Sunday I went to the hospital, and he stayed +overnight from Monday until Tuesday. + +Mr. RANKIN. After your husband returned from Mexico, did you examine +the rifle in the garage at any time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I had never examined the rifle in the garage. It was +wrapped in a blanket and was lying on the floor. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever check to see whether the rifle was in the +blanket? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I never checked to see that. There was only once that I +was interested in finding out what was in that blanket, and I saw that +it was a rifle. + +Mr. RANKIN. When was that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. About a week after I came from New Orleans. + +Mr. RANKIN. And then you found that the rifle was in the blanket, did +you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I saw the wooden part of it, the wooden stock. + +Mr. RANKIN. On the weekend before your husband got his job at the +depository, did he spend that with you at the Paines? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he come home Friday or Saturday? + +Mrs. OSWALD. On a Friday. + +Mr. RANKIN. When he returned to Dallas on Monday, the 14th of October, +did he tell you he was going to change his room? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember what your husband's pay was at the +depository? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me that it was also $1.25. + +Mr. RANKIN. About how much a month did it run? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me it was $210 to $230. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the hours that he worked? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It seems that--it seems to me that it was from 8:30 a.m. +to 5 p.m. + +Mr. RANKIN. And did he work the weekend or any overtime? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. It does happen in that depository that they work +overtime. But he did not have to work any. + +Mr. RANKIN. During the week when he was in Dallas and you were at +Irving, did he call you from time to time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Daily, twice. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he leave his telephone number in Dallas with you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +I don't have it, it was in Paine's notebook. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he speak to you in Russian when he called you on the +telephone? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Sometimes he would try to speak in English when +someone was listening, and he didn't want them to know he spoke +Russian--then he would try to speak in English. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever speak in Spanish when he was talking to you +from Dallas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. He doesn't speak Spanish. I don't either. His landlady +heard him say "Adios" and she decided that he spoke Spanish, because +she didn't understand that he had spoken Russian all that time. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a special celebration for your husband's +birthday? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. When was that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. On October 18th. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who was there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Ruth and her children, I, Lee, and Paine's husband, +Michael. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did Wesley Frazier bring your husband home at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Frazier is the last name? Wesley was that boy's name. I +now remember. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he bring him home that weekend? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. + +It seems to me, yes. It is hard to remember now which weekend was which. + +Mr. RANKIN. On these weekends, did you ever observe your husband going +to the garage, practicing with the rifle in any way? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you see him leave the house when he could have been +going to the garage and practicing with his rifle? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, he couldn't have practiced while we were at the +Paine's, because Ruth was there. But whenever she was not at home, +he tried to spend as much time as he could with me--he would watch +television in the house. But he did go to the garage to look at our +things that were there. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you don't know when he went there what he might have +done with the rifle? Is that what you mean? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At least I didn't notice anything. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, you have described your husband's---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. I think that it takes considerable time to +practice with a rifle. He never spent any great deal of time in the +garage. + +Mr. RANKIN. You have described your husband's practicing on the back +porch at New Orleans with the telescopic scope and the rifle, saying he +did that very regularly there. + +Did you ever see him working the bolt, that action that opens the +rifle, where you can put a shell in and push it back--during those +times? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I did not see it, because it was dark, and I would be in +the room at that time. + +But I did hear the noise from it from time to time--not often. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the weekend that you went to the hospital for +your baby? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Very well. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband go with you at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. Ruth drove me at that time. He remained with June +because June was crying and we could not leave her with strangers. He +wanted to go with me, but we couldn't arrange it any other way. + +Mr. RANKIN. After the baby was born, did he come and see you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything to you about the baby? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Every father talks a lot. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he talk about the baby? + +Mrs. OSWALD. About me and the child--he was very happy. He even had +tears in his eyes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he call you from Irving when you were in the hospital? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, he was working at that time, and he called me from +work. But I didn't talk to him. He merely asked the nurse how I was +doing. + +Mr. RANKIN. And those conversations would be reported to you by the +nurse, then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, she didn't tell me about them. Because he telephoned +to find out when I should be brought home, and he telephoned Ruth and +asked her to let him know. But the nurse did tell me that my husband +had called. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, the weekend of October 25th to the 27th, did your +husband return to Irving that weekend? + +Mrs. OSWALD. There were some weekends when he did not come. But this +was at my request. It happened twice, I think. One such weekend was the +occasion of the birthday of Mrs. Paine's daughter. And I knew that Lee +didn't like Michael, Mrs. Paine's husband, and I asked him not to come. + +This was one occasion. + +The other I don't recall. I don't recall the date of this. But I +remember that the weekend before he shot at the President, he did not +come on Saturday and Sunday. Because we had a quarrel--that incident +with the fictitious name. + +No, I am confused. + +It would be easier for me to remember if I knew the birthday of that +girl. Perhaps you know. Perhaps you have it noted down somewhere. + +Mr. RANKIN. You are asking me the birthday of Mrs. Paine's daughter? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Because I know that the FBI questioned me about it, and +they had made a note about it. Because they wanted to determine each +time when he did come and when did not. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, if it was the weekend of November 16th and 17th that +he remained in Dallas, would that help you as to the time of the +birthday? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This was the weekend before the 21st, and he had not +come home that weekend. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, the neighbor next door that you referred to, where you +learned about the job with the depository, could that have been Dorothy +Roberts? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that your husband went to some meeting with +Michael Paine in October of 1963? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +It seems to me--I know for sure that this was one of the Fridays. It +seems to me that this was the birthday--it was after dinner. They +talked in English. I don't know about what. I know that they got +together and went to some kind of a meeting. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was that a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Ruth said something about that, but I didn't understand +anything. This was right after the incident with Stevenson, who was hit. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was that in the weekend of October 25th? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, probably. This was not Lee's birthday. It was the +week after that, the following Friday. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, on October 26th, Saturday, was your husband with you +all day? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. All day. Whenever he came, he never went anywhere +else. + +Mr. RANKIN. We had some information that a telescopic sight was fitted +to a gun for your husband on that date, and that is why I am asking you +if there was any time that he could have left to have that done. + +Mrs. OSWALD. How is it about the telescope? He always had the +telescope. Were there two? + +Mr. RANKIN. We are trying to find out. + +Someone says that they mounted a sight. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is not the truth, if they say that. Simply people +talking. Perhaps someone who looked like Lee. + +Mr. RANKIN. Someone may be mistaken and thought that he had mounted a +telescopic sight when he did it for someone else. And that is why we +want to check with you. + +When your husband went back to work on Monday, October 28th, did he +drive with Wesley Frazier at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It seems--it seems that he had overslept and that someone +else had picked him up. But, no--no, I remember that he did not come +to get him, but Lee met him near his house. Lee told me that. Or his +sister. I don't remember. Lee told me about it. But I have forgotten. + +Mr. RANKIN. But he did not go in by bus that day? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. He said his sister drove him to the bus. I only know +that this boy did not come to get him that day. + +Mr. RANKIN. As far as you know, he may have gone all the way into +Dallas in a car, or he may have gone in a bus? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps he hadn't told him to pick him up on that day. I +don't know. I only know the fact that the boy did not pick him up on +that day. + +Mr. RANKIN. We have reports of FBI interviews the last part of October, +that is October 29, and also November 1, and November 5. We would like +to ask you about them, since some of them may have been with Mrs. Paine +in your presence or with you. + +Do you recall one on October 29th? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the interview. Ruth interpreted--she +talked to them. + +Mr. RANKIN. In order that the Commission will understand, whenever the +FBI would try to ask you any questions, Mrs. Paine would interpret for +you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And would she at the same time answer things in English, +too, herself? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. So, in effect, the FBI was---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me--she loves to talk. + +Mr. RANKIN. The FBI was interviewing both of you at the same time, to +some extent, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. They asked her about Lee, as far as I know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that you did have such an interview at Mrs. +Paine's house when she acted as interpreter on November 1, 1963? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you present on November 5, 1963, when FBI agents Hosty +and Wilson interviewed Mrs. Paine at her home? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I was in my room at that time busy with little Rachel, and +I heard voices which I thought were voices of the FBI. I came out of +the room and they were in a hurry to leave. They did not talk to me at +that time, other than just a greeting. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not they had been talking to Mrs. +Paine about you or your husband? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. She told me about it, but I was not especially +interested. She does not interpret quite exactly. She is hard to +understand. But she told me that in general terms. + +Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about the fact that you got the telephone +number of the FBI agent and gave it to your husband. Was that the +November 1 interview when that happened? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 18, and ask you if you can identify +that for us, and tell us what it is. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's notebook. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is your handwriting in that Exhibit 18? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It must be, yes, I will find mine. There are many +different handwritings in here. Different people have written in this +notebook. Sometimes Russian friends in Russia would note their address +in this notebook. + +This is mine. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us--is it a long notation by you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. That is my aunt's address when Lee would remain in +Minsk while I went on vacation. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is much of that notebook, Exhibit 18, in your husband's +handwriting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The majority, mostly. + +Mr. RANKIN. Except for the page with your handwriting on it and the +notations of other friends that you referred to, is it generally in +your husband's handwriting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I can tell exactly which is noted down by Lee and which is +noted down by others. + +Mr. RANKIN. And it is a regular notebook that he kept for all types of +notes? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Russia. + +Mr. RANKIN. He started it in Russia? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And there are a number of notations that were made after +you returned to this country, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 18. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted with that number. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 18, and +received in evidence.) + +Mrs. OSWALD. There is a Russian term for "wedding ring" noted in there. +Before we were married I wrote that down for him, because he didn't +know the Russian expression for it. I didn't tell him. He looked it up +in the dictionary himself and translated it. + +Mr. RANKIN. I would like to hand this back to you and call your +attention to the page of Exhibit 18 where the little white slip is. + +I ask you if you recognize the handwriting there, where it refers to +Agent Hosty. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee wrote that. And this is the license number. + +Mr. RANKIN. And the telephone number? + +The license number, the name, and the telephone number are all in your +husband's---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. The date when he visited him, FBI agent, telephone, name, +license number, and probably the address. + +Mr. RANKIN. Are all in your husband's handwriting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when they were entered in that notebook, +Exhibit 18? + +Mrs. OSWALD. After the first visit. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you note the notation "November 1" on that page? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. You think that is about the date of the first visit, then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, did you report to your husband the fact of this visit, +November 1, with the FBI agent? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't report it to him at once, but as soon as he came +for a weekend, I told him about it. + +By the way, on that day he was due to arrive. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is on November 1? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Lee comes off work at 5:30--comes from work at 5:30. +They left at 5 o'clock, and we told them if they wanted to they could +wait and Lee would be here soon. But they didn't want to wait. + +Mr. RANKIN. And by "they" who do you mean? Do you recall the name of +the other man beside Agent Hosty? + +Mrs. OSWALD. There was only one man during the first visit. I don't +remember his name. This was probably the date because there is his name +and the date. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, what did you tell your husband about this visit by the +FBI agent and the interview? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that they had come, that they were interested +in where he was working and where he lived, and he was, again, upset. + +He said that he would telephone them--I don't know whether he called or +not--or that he would visit them. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is that all you told him at that time about the interview? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I told him about the content of the interview, but now +I don't remember. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember anything else that happened in the +interview that you could tell the Commission at this time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I told you that I had told them that I didn't want them +to visit us, because we wanted to live peacefully, and that this was +disturbing to us. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else? + +Mrs. OSWALD. There was more, but I don't remember now. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, during this period of time---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. He said that he knew that Lee had been engaged +in passing out leaflets for the Committee for Cuba, and he asked +whether Lee was doing that here. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you answer that question? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I said that Lee does not engage in such activities here. +This was not like an interview. It was simply a conversation. We talked +about even some trifles that had no relationship to politics. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not your husband had any interviews +or conversations with the FBI during this period? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I know of two visits to the home of Ruth Paine, and I saw +them each time. But I don't know of any interviews with Lee. Lee had +told me that supposedly he had visited their office or their building. +But I didn't believe him. I thought that he was a brave rabbit. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband continue to call you daily from Dallas +after he got his job? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what he was doing? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Usually he would call me during the lunch break, and the +second time after he was finished work, and he told me that he was +reading, that he was watching television, and sometimes I told him that +he should not stay in his room too much, that he should go for a walk +in the park. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he say in answer to that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Or I would tell him to go out and eat, and he said that +he would listen to me. I don't know to what extent he fulfilled my +requests. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband come back from Dallas on November 8th? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he came back on Saturday of that week? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I remember that there was one weekend when he didn't come +on a Friday, but said that he would come on a Saturday. And he said +that that was because he wanted to visit another place--supposedly +there was another job open, more interesting work. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say where this other job was that he thought was +more interesting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said that this was also based upon an ad in a +newspaper, and that it was connected--that it was related to +photography. And he went there in the morning and then--on a +Saturday--and then came to us, still during the morning. + +Mr. RANKIN. He came home, then, on Saturday, some time before noon of +that day? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, before noon. + +It seems to me that there was a holiday on that day, on the +8th--elections--were there elections on that day? + +Mr. RANKIN. Are you thinking of November 11th, Veterans Day? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I remember that day exactly. We didn't go anywhere on that +Saturday. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you and your husband buy groceries in Irving some place? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Not always. Sometimes we would go together with Ruth and +buy a few things. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember the Hutch's Supermarket, owned by Mr. +Hutchison? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever shop there with your husband? + +Mrs. OSWALD. We never went just Lee and I. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did the three of you--Mrs. Paine and you and your husband +go together to shop? + +Mrs. OSWALD. And her children. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband try to cash checks at the Hutch's market? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He may have tried to cash checks sometimes when he +received unemployment compensation. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that he tried to cash a check of $189 at this +market? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't have such a check. + +Mr. RANKIN. As far as you know, he didn't try to cash a check of that +size at this market? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember this market. I do remember one time when +Lee wanted to cash a check, but it was $33. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is that the only time that you recall he tried to cash a +check? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Are you speaking of a store in Dallas or in Irving? + +Mr. RANKIN. It is in Irving. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Then I understand it. Because in Dallas I could not have +been with him. + +The CHAIRMAN. The hour of adjournment has arrived. So we will adjourn +now until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock. + +(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned.) + + + + +_Wednesday, February 5, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED + +The President's Commission met at 10 a.m., on February 5, 1964, at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator Richard +B. Russell, Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, +Representative Gerald R. Ford, Allen W. Dulles, members. + +Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, +assistant counsel; Leon I. Gopadze and William D. Krimer, interpreters; +John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; and Ruben Efron. + + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. We will continue with +the examination. Mr. Rankin, you may proceed. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, have you become familiar with the English +language to some extent? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have never studied it, but simple language I do +understand. + +Mr. RANKIN. We had reports that you made some study at the Southern +Methodist University. Is there anything to that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. How about Mr. Gregory? Did you study English with him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any formal aid or teaching of English by +anyone? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I had no formal instructions in it, but a Russian +acquaintance, Mr. Bouhe, wrote down some Russian phrases, and I would +try to translate them into English. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, since you have been living with the Martins, I assume +you haven't had any Russian friends to try to translate English for +you, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. If you do not count Mr. Gopadze and the FBI interpreter, I +have not been in contact with any Russians. + +Mr. RANKIN. And there were considerable periods during the time you +have been living with the Martins when neither Mr. Gopadze or the FBI +agent or translator were present, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. So have you been able to learn a little more English while +you have been with the Martins than you had before, because of that +experience? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Only a little, I think. + +At least it is very useful for me to live with an American family who +do not speak Russian. + +Mr. RANKIN. That has helped you to learn some English, more than when +you were living with Mrs. Paine, who could speak Russian to you, I take +it. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any French? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. Other than Russian, I don't know any other language. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, when you were with the Martins the Secret Service +people were there, too, were they not? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they helped me a great deal. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you object to the Secret Service people being there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did they treat you properly? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Excellently--very well. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you object to their being around and looking out for +you as they did? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did the Martins treat you during the time you have been +with them? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Better than I--could have been expected. + +Mr. RANKIN. Have you been pleased with the way they have treated you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am very pleased and I am very grateful to them. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mr. Thorne is your attorney. I understand that he +told the Civil Liberties Union people of Dallas it was all right for +the Secret Service people to be there with you and that you liked +that arrangement and did not want to be interfered with. Was that +satisfactory to you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was he speaking for you when he said that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because I received a letter from Mr. Olds, a leader +of that union. In that letter he said that he sympathizes with my +situation, that he supposed that the Secret Service treated me very +badly and stopped me from doing something. + +I answered him in a letter written in Russian which was later +translated into English that all of this was not the truth. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel any restraint or that you were being forced +to do anything there while you were at the Martins that was not +satisfactory to you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I was not forced to do anything that I did not want to. + +Mr. RANKIN. Anybody that tried to see you that you wanted to see during +that time or from that time up to the present--I withdraw that. + +Was anyone who you wished to see or wanted to see you that you were +willing to see kept from seeing you at that time or up to the present? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Generally some people wanted to talk to me but they +couldn't do so simply because I did not want to. + +Mr. RANKIN. And was that always the case, whenever you didn't talk to +someone during that period of time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Everything depended only on me. + +Mr. RANKIN. And whenever you did want to talk to someone or see +someone, you were always able to do that, were you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I did meet with Katya Ford, my former Russian friend. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you were always able to meet with anyone that you +wanted to, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, it has been claimed that Mrs. Ruth Paine tried to see +you at various times and was unable to do so. Can you tell us about +that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. She is trying very hard to come to see me, but I have no +desire to meet with her. I think that she is trying to do that for +herself, rather than for me. + +Mr. RANKIN. And whenever you have refused to see her when she tries to +see you, that is because you didn't want to see her yourself, is that +right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. What about the newspaper and television and radio people? +Have some of those tried to see you while you were at the Martins? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they have tried. + +Mr. RANKIN. And have you done anything about their efforts to see you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I never wanted to be popular in such a bad sense in which +I am now, and therefore I didn't want to see them. But I did have a +television interview in which I said that I am relatively satisfied +with my situation, that I am not too worried and I thanked people for +their attention towards me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe to us your relationship with your +mother-in-law now? + +Mrs. OSWALD. After all of this happened I met with her at the police +station. I was, of course, very sorry for her as Lee's mother. I was +always sorry for her because Lee did not want to live with her. + +I understood her motherly concern. But in view of the fact of +everything that happened later, her appearances in the radio, in the +press, I do not think that she is a very sound thinking woman, and I +think that part of the guilt is hers. I do not accuse her, but I think +that part of the guilt in connection with what happened with Lee lies +with her because he did not perhaps receive the education he should +have during his childhood, and he did not have any correct leadership +on her part, guidance. If she were in contact with my children now, I +do not want her to cripple them. + +Mr. RANKIN. Has she tried to see you since the assassination? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, all the time. + +Mr. RANKIN. And have you seen her since that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Accidentally we met at the cemetery on a Sunday when I +visited there, but I didn't want to meet with her, and I left. She +didn't understand that I didn't want to meet with her and she accused +the Secret Service personnel of preventing her from seeing me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Except for the time at the jail and at the cemetery, have +you seen her since the assassination? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. At the time you did see your mother-in-law, did you observe +any difference in her attitude towards you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe that difference that you observed? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At first I said that I didn't see her any more. But after +Lee was in jail I lived with her for some time at that inn. + +Mr. RANKIN. The Six Flags? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The Six Flags. And inasmuch as I lived with her and met +with her every day I could see--I was able to see the change. At least +if her relationship with me was good, it was not sincere. I think that +she does not like me. I don't think that she simply is able to like me. + +There were some violent scenes, she didn't want to listen to anyone, +there were hysterics. Everyone was guilty of everything and no one +understood her. + +Perhaps my opinion is wrong, but at least I do not want to live with +her and to listen to scandals every day. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did she say anything to indicate that she blamed you in +connection with the assassination? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, she did not accuse me of anything. + +Mr. RANKIN. In your presence, at any time, did she accuse Ruth Paine of +being involved in causing the assassination or being directly involved? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, she never accused Ruth Paine. She simply did not like +her. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you why she didn't like Ruth Paine? + +Mrs. OSWALD. She told me but I didn't understand it because it was in +English. She expresses more by rather stormy mimicry, thinking that +that would get across and I would understand. + +Mr. RANKIN. You said that you didn't want to see Ruth Paine because you +thought she wanted to see you for her own interests. Will you tell us +what you meant by that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think that she wants to see me in her own selfish +interests. She likes to be well known, popular, and I think that +anything that I should write her, for example, would wind up in the +press. + +The reason that I think so is that the first time that we were in jail +to see Lee, she was with me and with her children, and she was trying +to get in front of the cameras, and to push her children and instructed +her children to look this way and look that way. And the first +photographs that appeared were of me with her children. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that in the note your husband left about the +Walker incident, that there was a reference to the Red Cross, and that +you might get help there? Did you ever obtain any help from the Red +Cross before that date? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, never. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason why your husband put that in the +note? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, because the Red Cross is an organization in all +countries which helps people who need help, and in case I needed help, +since I have no relatives here, I would be able to obtain it from this +organization. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not your husband received any help +from the Red Cross in money payments while he was in Russia? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't. + +Mr. RANKIN. In that note you remember that there was a reference to an +embassy--it didn't say which embassy. Do you know what embassy your +husband was referring to? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He had in mind the Soviet Embassy. + +Mr. RANKIN. You told about the incident of De Mohrenschildt coming to +the house and saying something about how your husband happened to miss, +and your husband looked at you and looked at him, and seemed to think +that you might have told. You have described that. + +Now, did you have any cause to believe at that time that De +Mohrenschildt knew anything about the Walker incident? + +Mrs. OSWALD. De Mohrenschildt didn't know anything about it. Simply he +thought that this was something that Lee was likely to do. He simply +made a joke and the joke happened to hit the target. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you conclude that from what you knew about the situation +or from something that De Mohrenschildt said at some time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I know this, myself. I know that Lee could not have +told him. And, otherwise, how would he have known? + +Mr. RANKIN. From your knowledge, were they close enough so that your +husband would have made De Mohrenschildt a confidant about anything +like that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No matter how close Lee might be to anyone, he would not +have confided such things. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the money that your husband borrowed from the +Embassy in Moscow to come to this country? Do you know where he got the +money to repay that amount? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He worked and we paid out the debt. For six or seven +months we were paying off this debt. + +Mr. RANKIN. Some of the payments were rather large during that period. +Do you remember that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And no one will believe it--it may appear strange. +But we lived very modestly. Perhaps for you it is hard to imagine how +we existed. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you handle the finances---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Of course we were economizing. + +No, Lee always handled the money, but I bought groceries. He gave me +money and I bought groceries, or more correctly, together. + +Mr. RANKIN. You would usually go to the grocery store together to buy +what you needed? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And then did he give you any funds separately from that, +for you to spend alone? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he would give it to me, but I would not take it. + +Mr. RANKIN. How much were those amounts? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me, I want to add something. + +You asked me yesterday to make a list of how much we spent during a +month--I forgot. Excuse me--I will do it today. + +For example, when we paid $60 to $65 rent per month, we would spend +only about $15 per week for groceries. As you see, I didn't die and I +am not sick. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you buy clothing for yourself? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Not everything. At first some of our Russian friends would +occasionally give us some clothes. But Lee would also buy clothes for +me. But in America this is no problem. + +Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In my opinion life is not very expensive here. Everyone +buys according to his financial status, and no one walks around +undressed. You can buy for $20 and at a sale you might buy for $2, +clothes for an entire season. + +Mr. RANKIN. What about clothing for your child? Did you handle the +buying of that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Returning to the---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. Some of the things for children were given to +us by friends who had children. But I didn't like them and I bought +some. + +Mr. RANKIN. Returning to the date of November 11, 1963, did you recall +that that was a holiday? + +Mrs. OSWALD. November 11? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember that it was a holiday. We did not +celebrate it. But something, I remember, was closed. Perhaps there were +elections. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is Veterans Day in this country, and it was a +Monday--refreshing your memory in that regard. + +Do you recall whether or not your husband went to work that day? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I remember that he remained at the Paine's. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what he did during that day? + +Mrs. OSWALD. As always, he played with June and he helped me a little +with preparation of lunch, and he sat around, watched television. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was he doing any reading at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't read. It seems to me that on that day he was +typing. I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you don't know what he was typing? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me it was the envelope---- + +Mr. RANKIN. Which you have identified? + +Mrs. OSWALD. You remember you had a letter which mentioned Mexico and +Kostin, it was that envelope. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is this Exhibit 16 that you are referring to? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. You see the date is the 12th. You see, I can't +remember a specific date, but some event I can connect with it brings +it back. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember whether your husband returned from Dallas +to Irving at any time during that week? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It seems he came on Saturday or Friday for the weekend. + +Perhaps he didn't come. I am mixed up as to which weekends he did and +didn't come. + +Mr. RANKIN. We have a statement from a Mr. Hutchison of the supermarket +that I referred to yesterday that you and your husband were in his +supermarket on November 13. Do you recall anything like that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. If the 12th was a Monday and the 13th a Tuesday, Lee was +at work. He couldn't have been there. + +Mr. RANKIN. In one of your statements that you have given the FBI +and the Secret Service you indicated that this particular weekend +your husband stayed in Dallas--that is the 15th through the 17th of +November. Does that refresh your memory? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--the 15th to the 17th he remained in Dallas. That is, +he didn't come that weekend. + +But on the 13th he was not in Irving. + +Mr. RANKIN. That would be the weekend before the assassination, to +refresh your memory again. + +Mrs. OSWALD. You see, this is why I was not surprised that he didn't +come--that he came, rather, he had not come on Friday and Saturday, and +on Sunday I called him over the telephone and this is when he had a +quarrel over the fictitious name. + +By the way, he didn't come because I told him not to come. He had +wanted to come, he had telephoned. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you tell him about not coming? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That he shouldn't come every week, that perhaps it is not +convenient for Ruth that the whole family be there, live there. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said, "As you wish. If you don't want me to come, I +won't." + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you quite angry with him about the use of the +fictitious name? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And when he called me over the phone a second time I +hung up and would not talk to him. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell him why you were so angry? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I said, "After all, when will all your foolishness come to +an end? All of these comedies. First one thing then another. And now +this fictitious name." + +I didn't understand why. After all, it was nothing terrible if people +were to find out that he had been in Russia. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he say when you said that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That I didn't understand anything. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember an incident when he said you were a +Czechoslovakian rather than a Russian? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We lived on Elsbeth Street, and he had told the +landlady that I was from Czechoslovakia. But I didn't know about it, +and when the landlady asked me, I told her I was from Russia. I told +Lee about it that evening, and he scolded me for having said that. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That the landlady was very nice and she was very good to +me and she was even pleased with the fact that I was from Russia. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you object to your husband saying that you were from +some country other than Russia? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him about that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am not ashamed of the fact that I am from Russia. I can +even be proud of the fact that I am Russian. And there is no need for +me to hide it. Every person should be proud of his nationality and not +be afraid or ashamed of it. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he say in response to that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing. + +Mr. RANKIN. When he gave the fictitious name, did he use the name +Hidell? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Where? + +Mr. RANKIN. When you called him that time. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Where? + +Mr. RANKIN. On the weekend, when you called him, you said there was a +fictitious name given. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what name he had given. He said that he was +under a fictitious name, but he didn't tell me which. + +Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever heard that he used the fictitious name Hidell? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn that he used such a name? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In New Orleans. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When he was interviewed by some anti-Cubans, he used +this name and spoke of an organization. I knew there was no such +organization. And I know that Hidell is merely an altered Fidel, and I +laughed at such foolishness. My imagination didn't work that way. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him about it at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I said that it wasn't a nice thing to do and some day it +would be discovered anyhow. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, the weekend of November 15th to 17th, which was the +weekend before the assassination, do you know what your husband did or +how he spent that weekend while he was in Dallas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he took the rifle before he went into +Dallas, that trip, for that weekend? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I think that he took the rifle on Thursday +when he came the next time, but I didn't see him take it. I assume +that. I cannot know it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Except for the time in New Orleans that you described, and +the time you called to Dallas to ask for your husband, do you know of +any other time your husband was using an assumed name? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, no more. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you think he was using that assumed name in connection +with this Fair Play for Cuba activity or something else? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The name Hidell, which you pronounced Hidell, was in +connection with his activity with the non-existing organization. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you and your husband live under the name Hidell in New +Orleans? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. You were never identified as the Hidells, as far as you +knew, while you were there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. No one knew that Lee was Hidell. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did you discover it, then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I already said that when I listened to the radio, they +spoke of that name, and I asked him who, and he said that it was he. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was that after the arrest? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember when the interview took place, before the +arrest or after. + +Mr. RANKIN. But it was in regard to some interview for radio +transmission, and he had identified himself as Hidell, rather than +Oswald, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No--he represented himself as Oswald, but he said that the +organization which he supposedly represents is headed by Hidell. + +Mr. RANKIN. He was using the name Hidell, then, to have a fictitious +president or head of the organization which really was he himself, is +that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about his practicing with the rifle, the +telescopic lens, on the back porch at New Orleans, and also his using +the bolt action that you heard from time to time. + +Will you describe that a little more fully to us, as best you remember? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot describe that in greater detail. I can only say +that Lee would sit there with the rifle and open and close the bolt and +clean it. No, he didn't clean it at that time. + +Yes--twice he did clean it. + +Mr. RANKIN. And did he seem to be practicing with the telescopic lens, +too, and sighting the gun on different objects? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. The rifle was always with this. I don't know +exactly how he practiced, because I was in the house, I was busy. I +just knew that he sits there with his rifle. I was not interested in it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was this during the light of the day or during the darkness? + +Mrs. OSWALD. During darkness. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was it so dark that neighbors could not see him on the +porch there with the gun? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, during the week of the assassination, did your husband +call you at all by telephone? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He telephoned me on Monday, after I had called him on +Sunday, and he was not there. + +Or, rather, he was there, but he wasn't called to the phone because he +was known by another name. + +On Monday he called several times, but after I hung up on him and +didn't want to talk to him he did not call again. He then arrived on +Thursday. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you he was coming Thursday? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn that he was using the assumed name of Lee as +his last name? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I know it now, but I did not ever know it before. + +Mr. RANKIN. Thursday was the 21st. Do you recall that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And the assassination was on the 22d. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is very hard to forget. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband give any reason for coming home on +Thursday? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he was lonely because he hadn't come the +preceding weekend, and he wanted to make his peace with me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He tried to talk to me but I would not answer him, and he +was very upset. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you upset with him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I was angry, of course. He was not angry--he was upset. +I was angry. He tried very hard to please me. He spent quite a bit of +time putting away diapers and played with the children on the street. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did you indicate to him that you were angry with him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. By not talking to him. + +Mr. RANKIN. And how did he show that he was upset? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He was upset over the fact that I would not answer him. He +tried to start a conversation with me several times, but I would not +answer. And he said that he didn't want me to be angry at him because +this upsets him. + +On that day, he suggested that we rent an apartment in Dallas. He said +that he was tired of living alone and perhaps the reason for my being +so angry was the fact that we were not living together. That if I want +to he would rent an apartment in Dallas tomorrow--that he didn't want +me to remain with Ruth any longer, but wanted me to live with him in +Dallas. + +He repeated this not once but several times, but I refused. And he said +that once again I was preferring my friends to him, and that I didn't +need him. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I said it would be better if I remained with Ruth until +the holidays, he would come, and we would all meet together. That this +was better because while he was living alone and I stayed with Ruth, we +were spending less money. And I told him to buy me a washing machine, +because two children it became too difficult to wash by hand. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said he would buy me a washing machine. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. That it would be better if he bought something +for himself--that I would manage. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did this seem to make him more upset, when you suggested +that he wait about getting an apartment for you to live in? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He then stopped talking and sat down and watched +television and then went to bed. I went to bed later. It was about 9 +o'clock when he went to sleep. I went to sleep about 11:30. But it +seemed to me that he was not really asleep. But I didn't talk to him. + +In the morning he got up, said goodbye, and left, and that I shouldn't +get up--as always, I did not get up to prepare breakfast. This was +quite usual. + +And then after I fed Rachel, I took a look to see whether Lee was +here, but he had already gone. This was already after the police had +come. Ruth told me that in the evening she had worked in the garage +and she knows that she had put out the light but that the light was on +later--that the light was on in the morning. And she guessed that Lee +was in the garage. + +But I didn't see it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you when she thought your husband had been in +the garage, what time of the day? + +Mrs. OSWALD. She thought that it was during the evening, because the +light remained on until morning. + +Mr. RANKIN. Why did you stay awake until 11:30? Were you still angry +with him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, not for that reason, but because I had to wash dishes +and be otherwise busy with the household--take a bath. + +Mr. RANKIN. This is a good place for a recess, Mr. Chairman. + +The CHAIRMAN. All right. We can take a recess now. + +We will recess now for 10 minutes. + +(Brief recess.) + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. + +Mr. Rankin? + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, why did the use of this false name by your +husband make you so angry? Would you explain that a little bit? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It would be unpleasant and incomprehensible to any wife if +her husband used a fictitious name. And then, of course, I thought that +if he would see that I don't like it and that I explained to him that +this is not the smart thing to do, that he would stop doing it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel that you were becoming more impatient with all +of these things that your husband was doing, the Fair Play for Cuba and +the Walker incident, and then this fictitious name business? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. I was tired of it. + +Every day I was waiting for some kind of a new surprise. I couldn't +wait to find out what else would he think of. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss that with your husband at all? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I said that no one needed anything like that, that for no +reason at all he was thinking that he was not like other people, that +he was more important. + +Mr. RANKIN. And what did he say? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He would seem to agree, but then would continue again in +two or three days. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you sense that he was not intending to carry out his +agreement with you to not have another Walker incident or anything like +that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I generally didn't think that Lee would repeat anything +like that. Generally, I knew that the rifle was very tempting for him. +But I didn't believe that he would repeat it. It was hard to believe. + +Mr. RANKIN. I wasn't clear about when Mrs. Paine thought that your +husband might have been in the garage and had the light on. Can you +give us any help on the time of day that she had in mind? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In the morning she thought about it. But she didn't attach +any significance to it at that time. It was only after the police had +come that this became more significant for her. + +Mr. RANKIN. So she thought it was in the morning after he got up from +his night's rest that he might have gone to the garage, turned on the +light? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In my opinion, she thought that it was at night, or during +the evening that he had been in the garage and turned on the light. At +least that is what she said to me. I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did she indicate whether she thought it was before he went +to bed at 9 o'clock? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. At first it seems it wasn't nine, it was +perhaps ten o'clock when Lee went to bed. And first, Ruth went to her +room and then Lee went. He was there after her. + +Mr. RANKIN. So he might have been in the garage sometime between 9 and +10? Was that what you thought? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But I think that he might have even been there in the +morning and turned on the light. + +Mr. RANKIN. On this evening when you were angry with him, had he come +home with the young Mr. Frazier that day? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. When was the last time that you had noticed the rifle +before that day? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I said that I saw--for the first and last time I saw the +rifle about a week after I had come to Mrs. Paine. + +But, as I said, the rifle was wrapped in a blanket, and I was sure when +the police had come that the rifle was still in the blanket, because it +was all rolled together. And, therefore, when they took the blanket and +the rifle was not in it, I was very much surprised. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see the rifle in a paper cover? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe for the Commission the place in the +garage where the rifle was located? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When you enter the garage from the street it was in the +front part, the left. + +Mr. RANKIN. By the left you mean left of the door? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It is an overhead door and the rifle was to the left, on +the floor. + +It was always in the same place. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else close to the rifle that you recall? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Next to it there were some--next to the rifle there were +some suitcases and Ruth had some paper barrels in the garage where the +kids used to play. + +Mr. RANKIN. The way the rifle was wrapped with a blanket, could you +tell whether or not the rifle had been removed and the blanket just +left there at any time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It always had the appearance of having something inside +of it. But I only looked at it really once, and I was always sure the +rifle was in it. Therefore, it is very hard to determine when the rifle +was taken. I only assumed that it was on Thursday, because Lee had +arrived so unexpectedly for some reason. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you believe that the reason for his coming out to see +you Thursday was to make up? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think there were two reasons. One was to make up with +me, and the other to take the rifle. This is--this, of course, is not +irreconcilable. + +Mr. RANKIN. But you think he came to take the rifle because of what you +learned since. Is that it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. + +Mr. RANKIN. Before this incident about the fictitious name, were you +and your husband getting along quite well? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he seem to like his job at the depository? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because it was not dirty work. + +Mr. RANKIN. Had he talked about getting any other job? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. When he went to answer some ads, he preferred to get +some work connected with photography rather than this work. He liked +this work relatively speaking--he liked it. But, of course, he wanted +to get something better. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you like the photographic work? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. It was interesting for him. When he would see his +work in the newspaper he would always point it out. + +Mr. RANKIN. He had a reference in his notebook to the word "Microdot". +Do you know what he meant by that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did your husband get along with Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He was polite to her, as an acquaintance would be, but he +didn't like her. He told me that he detested her--a tall and stupid +woman. She is, of course, not too smart, but most people aren't. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say anything to indicate he thought Mrs. Paine +was coming between him and you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine say anything about your husband? + +Mrs. OSWALD. She didn't say anything bad. I don't know what she +thought. But she didn't say anything bad. + +Perhaps she didn't like something about him, but she didn't tell me. +She didn't want to hurt me by saying anything. + +Mr. RANKIN. I have understood from your testimony that you did not +really care to go to Russia but your husband was the one that was +urging that, and that is why you requested the visa, is that correct? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And later he talked about not only you and your child +going, but also his going with you, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what caused him to make that change? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At one time--I don't remember whether he was working at +that time or not--he was very sad and upset. He was sitting and writing +something in his notebook. I asked him what he was writing and he said, +"It would be better if I go with you." + +Then he went into the kitchen and he sat there in the dark, and when I +came in I saw that he was crying. I didn't know why. But, of course, +when a man is crying it is not a very pleasant thing, and I didn't +start to question him about why. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say to you that he didn't want you to leave him +alone? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you at that time say anything to him about your all +staying in this country and getting along together? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I told him, of course, that it would be better for us to +stay here. But if it was very difficult for him and if he was always +worried about tomorrow, then perhaps it would be better if we went. + +Mr. RANKIN. On the evening of the 21st, was anything said about curtain +rods or his taking curtain rods to town the following day? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't have any. + +Mr. RANKIN. He didn't say anything like that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the weekend that was coming up? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he probably would not come on Friday, and he +didn't come--he was in jail. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did the quarrel that you had at that time seem to cause him +to be more disturbed than usual? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, not particularly. At least he didn't talk about that +quarrel when he came. Usually he would remember about what happened. +This time he didn't blame me for anything, didn't ask me any questions, +just wanted to make up. + +Mr. RANKIN. I understood that when you didn't make up he was quite +disturbed and you were still angry, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I wasn't really very angry. I, of course, wanted to make +up with him. But I gave the appearance of being very angry. I was +smiling inside, but I had a serious expression on my face. + +Mr. RANKIN. And as a result of that, did he seem to be more disturbed +than usual? + +Mrs. OSWALD. As always, as usual. Perhaps a little more. At least when +he went to bed he was very upset. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you think that had anything to do with the assassination +the next day? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps he was thinking about all of that. I don't think +that he was asleep. Because, in the morning when the alarm clock went +off he hadn't woken up as usual before the alarm went off, and I +thought that he probably had fallen asleep very late. At least then I +didn't think about it. Now I think so. + +Mr. RANKIN. When he said he would not be home that Friday evening, did +you ask him why? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he say? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said that since he was home on Thursday, that it +wouldn't make any sense to come again on Friday, that he would come for +the weekend. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did that cause you to think that he had any special plans +to do anything? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you usually keep a wallet with money in it at the +Paines? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, in my room at Ruth Paine's there was a black wallet +in a wardrobe. Whenever Lee would come he would put money in there, but +I never counted it. + +Mr. RANKIN. On the evening of November 21st, do you know how much was +in the wallet? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. One detail that I remember was that he had asked me +whether I had bought some shoes for myself, and I said no, that I +hadn't had any time. He asked me whether June needed anything and told +me to buy everything that I needed for myself and for June--and for the +children. + +This was rather unusual for him, that he would mention that first. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he take the money from the wallet from time to time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, he generally kept the amount that he needed and put +the rest in the wallet. + +I know that the money that was found there, that you think this was +not Lee's money. But I know for sure that this was money that he had +earned. He had some money left after his trip to Mexico. Then we +received an unemployment compensation check for $33. And then Lee paid +only $7 or $8 for his room. And I know how he eats, very little. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what his ordinary lunch was? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Peanut butter sandwich, cheese sandwich, some lettuce, and +he would buy himself a hamburger, something else, a coke. + +Mr. RANKIN. And what about his evening meal? Do you know what he ate in +the evening meal? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Usually meat, vegetables, fruit, dessert. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where would he have that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He loved bananas. They were inexpensive. + +The place where he rented a room, he could not cook there. He said that +there was some sort of a cafe across the street and that he ate there. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever tell you what he paid for his evening meal? + +Mrs. OSWALD. About a dollar, $1.30. + +Mr. RANKIN. What about his breakfast? Do you know what he had for +breakfast ordinarily? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He never had breakfast. He just drank coffee and that is +all. + +Not because he was trying to economize. Simply he never liked to eat. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, will you note the presence of Mr. Ruben Efron +in the hearing room. He also knows Russian. + +On November 21, the day before the assassination that you were +describing, was there any discussion between you and your husband about +President Kennedy's trip or proposed trip to Texas, Dallas and the Fort +Worth area? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I asked Lee whether he knew where the President would +speak, and told him that I would very much like to hear him and to see +him. I asked him how this could be done. + +But he said he didn't know how to do that, and didn't enlarge any +further on that subject. + +Mr. RANKIN. Had there ever been---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. This was also somewhat unusual--his lack of desire to talk +about that subject any further. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you explain that to us? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think about it more now. + +At that time, I didn't pay any attention. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did you think it was unusual? Could you explain that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The fact that he didn't talk a lot about it. He merely +gave me--said something as an answer, and did not have any further +comments. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you mean by that usually he would discuss a matter of +that kind and show considerable interest? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course, he would have told who would be there and +where this would take place. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about his showing a lack of interest +at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I merely shrugged my shoulders. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, prior to that time, had there been any discussion +between you concerning the proposed trip of President Kennedy to Texas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. While you were in New Orleans, was there any discussion or +reference to President Kennedy's proposed trip to Texas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband make any comments about President Kennedy +on that evening, of the 21st? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Had your husband at any time that you can recall said +anything against President Kennedy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember any--ever having said that. I don't know. +He never told me that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say anything good about President Kennedy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Usually he would translate magazine articles. They were +generally good. And he did not say that this contradicted his opinion. +I just remembered that he talked about Kennedy's father, who made his +fortune by a not very--in a not very good manner. Disposing of such +funds, of course, it was easier for his sons to obtain an education and +to obtain a government position, and it was easier to make a name for +themselves. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about President Kennedy's father making his +fortune? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he had speculated in wine. I don't know to +what extent that is true. + +Mr. RANKIN. When he read these articles to you, did he comment +favorably upon President Kennedy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have already said that he would translate articles which +were good, but he would not comment on them. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you recall---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. At least when I found out that Lee had shot at +the President, for me this was surprising. And I didn't believe it. +I didn't believe for a long time that Lee had done that. That he had +wanted to kill Kennedy--because perhaps Walker was there again, perhaps +he wanted to kill him. + +Mr. RANKIN. Why did you not believe this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Because I had never heard anything bad about Kennedy from +Lee. And he never had anything against him. + +Mr. RANKIN. But you also say that he never said anything about him. + +Mrs. OSWALD. He read articles which were favorable. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say he approved of those articles? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't say anything. Perhaps he did reach his own +conclusions reading these articles, but he didn't tell me about them. + +Mr. RANKIN. So apparently he didn't indicate any approval or +disapproval as far as he was concerned, of President Kennedy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct. The President is the President. In +my opinion, he never wanted to overthrow him. At least he never showed +me that. He never indicated that he didn't want that President. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe that his acts on November 21st the evening +before the assassination, were anything like they were the evening +before the Walker incident? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Absolutely nothing in common. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything at all that would indicate he was +contemplating the assassination? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he discuss the television programs he saw that evening +with you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He was looking at TV by himself. I was busy in the +kitchen. At one time when we were--when I was together with him they +showed some sort of war films, from World War II. And he watched them +with interest. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall films that he saw called "Suddenly," and "We +were Strangers" that involved assassinations? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the names of these films. If you would +remind me of the contents, perhaps I would know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, "Suddenly," was about the assassination of a +president, and the other was about the assassination of a Cuban +dictator. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Lee saw those films. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that he had seen them? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I was with him when he watched them. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall about when this was with reference to the +date of the assassination? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It seems that this was before Rachel's birth. + +Mr. RANKIN. Weeks or months? Can you recall that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Several days. Some five days. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the films after you had seen them with your +husband? + +Mrs. OSWALD. One film about the assassination of the president in Cuba, +which I had seen together with him, he said that this was a fictitious +situation, but that the content of the film was similar to the actual +situation which existed in Cuba, meaning the revolution in Cuba. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did either of you comment on either film being like the +attempt on Walker's life? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I didn't watch the other film. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said by your husband about how easy an +assassination could be committed like that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I only know that he watched the film with interest, +but I didn't like it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything else he said about either of these +films? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing else. He didn't tell me anything else. He talked +to Ruth a few words. Perhaps she knows more. + +Mr. RANKIN. By Ruth, you mean Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. OSWALD. They spoke in English. + +Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And did Mrs. Paine tell you what he said to her at that +time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall your husband saying at any time after he saw +the film about the Cuban assassination that this was the old-fashioned +way of assassination? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything being said by your husband at any +time about Governor Connally? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, while we were still in Russia, and Connally at that +time was Secretary of the Navy, Lee wrote him a letter in which he +asked Connally to help him obtain a good character reference because +at the end of his Army service he had a good characteristic--honorable +discharge--but that it had been changed after it became known he had +gone to Russia. + +Mr. RANKIN. Had it been changed to undesirable discharge, as you +understand it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Then we received a letter from Connally in which he +said that he had turned the matter over to the responsible authorities. +That was all in Russia. + +But here it seems he had written again to that organization with +a request to review. But he said from time to time that these are +bureaucrats, and he was dissatisfied. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when he wrote again? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was that letter written from New Orleans? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I only know about the fact, but when and +how, I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband say anything to you to indicate he had a +dislike for Governor Connally? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Here he didn't say anything. + +But while we were in Russia he spoke well of him. It seems to me that +Connally was running for Governor and Lee said that when he would +return to the United States he would vote for him. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is all that you remember that he said about Governor +Connally then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. With regard to the Walker incident, you said that your +husband seemed disturbed for several weeks. Did you notice anything of +that kind with regard to the day prior to the assassination? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. On November 22, the day of the assassination, you said your +husband got up and got his breakfast. Did you get up at all before he +left? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I woke up before him, and I then went to the kitchen +to see whether he had had breakfast or not--whether he had already left +for work. But the coffee pot was cold and Lee was not there. + +And when I met Ruth that morning, I asked her whether Lee had had +coffee or not, and she said probably, perhaps he had made himself some +instant coffee. + +But probably he hadn't had any breakfast that morning. + +Mr. RANKIN. Then did he say anything to you that morning at all, or did +he get up and go without speaking to you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He told me to take as much money as I needed and to buy +everything, and said goodbye, and that is all. + +After the police had already come, I noticed that Lee had left his +wedding ring. + +Mr. RANKIN. You didn't observe that that morning when your husband had +left, did you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know approximately what time your husband left that +morning? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have written it there, but I have now forgotten whether +it was seven or eight. But a quarter to eight--I don't know. I have now +forgotten. + +Mr. RANKIN. What time was he due for work? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He was due at work at 8 or 8:30. At 7:15 he was already +gone. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he rode with Wesley Frazier that +morning? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I didn't hear him leave. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see a paper bag or cover for the rifle at the +Paine's residence or garage? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see a bag at any time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where did your husband have his lunch? Did he take a +sandwich to the depository, or did he go home to his rooming house for +lunch? Do you know? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He usually took sandwiches to lunch. But I don't know +whether he would go home or not. + +Mr. RANKIN. Had your husband ever left his wedding ring at home that +way before? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At one time while he was still at Fort Worth, it was +inconvenient for him to work with his wedding ring on and he would +remove it, but at work--he would not leave it at home. His wedding ring +was rather wide, and it bothered him. + +I don't know now. He would take it off at work. + +Mr. RANKIN. Then this is the first time during your married life that +he had ever left it at home where you live? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your husband carried any package with +him when he left the house on November 22nd? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he had a package with his lunch. But a small +package. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he had any package like a rifle in some +container? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you do the rest of the morning, after you got up +on November 22d? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When I got up the television set was on, and I knew that +Kennedy was coming. Ruth had gone to the doctor with her children and +she left the television set on for me. And I watched television all +morning, even without having dressed. She was running around in her +pajamas and watching television with me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Before the assassination, did you ever see your husband +examining the route of the parade as it was published in the paper? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see him looking at a map of Dallas like he did +in connection with the Walker shooting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn of the shooting of President Kennedy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I was watching television, and Ruth by that time was +already with me, and she said someone had shot at the President. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It was hard for me to say anything. We both turned pale. I +went to my room and cried. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you think immediately that your husband might have been +involved? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine say anything about the possibility of your +husband being involved? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, but she only said that "By the way, they fired from +the building in which Lee is working." + +My heart dropped. I then went to the garage to see whether the rifle +was there, and I saw that the blanket was still there, and I said, +"Thank God." I thought, "Can there really be such a stupid man in the +world that could do something like that?" But I was already rather +upset at that time--I don't know why. Perhaps my intuition. + +I didn't know what I was doing. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you look in the blanket to see if the rifle was there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't unroll the blanket. It was in its usual position, +and it appeared to have something inside. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you at any time open the blanket to see if the rifle +was there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, only once. + +Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about that. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And what about Mrs. Paine? Did she look in the blanket to +see if the rifle was there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. She didn't know about the rifle. + +Perhaps she did know. But she never told me about it. + +I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn that the rifle was not in the blanket? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When the police arrived and asked whether my husband had a +rifle, and I said "Yes." + +Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened? + +Mrs. OSWALD. They began to search the apartment. When they came to the +garage and took the blanket, I thought, "Well, now, they will find it." + +They opened the blanket but there was no rifle there. + +Then, of course, I already knew that it was Lee. Because, before that, +while I thought that the rifle was at home, I did not think that Lee +had done that. I thought the police had simply come because he was +always under suspicion. + +Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by that--he was always under suspicion? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, the FBI would visit us. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did they indicate what they suspected him of? + +Mrs. OSWALD. They didn't tell me anything. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to the police when they came? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember now. I was so upset that I don't remember +what I said. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them about your husband leaving his wedding +ring that morning? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, because I didn't know it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them that you had looked for the gun you +thought was in the blanket? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, it seems to me I didn't say that. They didn't ask me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you watch the police open the blanket to see if the +rifle was there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine also watch them? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me, as far as I remember. + +Mr. RANKIN. When the police came, did Mrs. Paine act as an interpreter +for you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. She told me about what they had said. But I was not +being questioned so that she would interpret. She told me herself. She +very much loved to talk and she welcomed the occasion. + +Mr. RANKIN. You mean by that that she answered questions of the police +and then told you what she had said? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And what did she tell you that she had said to the police? + +Mrs. OSWALD. She talked to them in the usual manner, in English, when +they were addressing her. + +But when they addressed me, she was interpreting. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the exact time of the day that you discovered +the wedding ring there at the house? + +Mrs. OSWALD. About 2 o'clock, I think. I don't remember. Then +everything got mixed up, all time. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did the police spend considerable time there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember the names of any of the officers? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did they treat you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Rather gruff, not very polite. They kept on following me. +I wanted to change clothes because I was dressed in a manner fitting to +the house. And they would not even let me go into the dressing room to +change. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, what could I tell them? + +I asked them, but they didn't want to. They were rather rough. They +kept on saying, hurry up. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did they want you to go with them? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you leave the house with them right soon after they +came? + +Mrs. OSWALD. About an hour, I think. + +Mr. RANKIN. And what were they doing during that hour? + +Mrs. OSWALD. They searched the entire house. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did they take anything with them? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--everything, even some tapes--Ruth's tapes from a tape +recorder, her things. I don't know what. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did they take many of your belongings? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't watch at that time. After all, it is not my +business. If they need it, let them take it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did they give you an inventory of what they took? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. You have never received an inventory? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you now know what they took? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I know that I am missing my documents, that I am +missing Lee's documents, Lee's wedding ring. + +Mr. RANKIN. What about clothing? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Robert had some of Lee's clothing. I don't know what was +left of Lee's things, but I hope they will return it. No one needs it. + +Mr. RANKIN. What documents do you refer to that you are missing? + +Mrs. OSWALD. My foreign passport, my immigration card, my birth +certificate, my wedding certificate--marriage certificate, June's and +Rachel's birth certificates. Then various letters, my letters from +friends. Perhaps something that has some bearing--photographs, whatever +has some reference--whatever refers to the business at hand, let it +remain. + +Then my diploma. I don't remember everything now. + +Mr. RANKIN. What documents of your husband's do you recall that they +took? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't see what they took. At least at the present time +I have none of Lee's documents. + +Mr. RANKIN. The documents of his that you refer to that you don't have +are similar to your own that you described? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He also had a passport, several work books, labor +cards. I don't know what men here--what sort of documents men here +carry. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, it is now 12:30. + +The CHAIRMAN. I think we will recess now for lunch. + +(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the Commission recessed.) + + + + +Afternoon Session + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED + + +The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m. + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may +continue. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we will hand you Exhibit 19, which purports to +be an envelope from the Soviet Embassy at Washington, dated November 4, +1963, and ask you if you recall seeing the original or a copy of that. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I had not seen this envelope before, but Lee had told me +that a letter had been received in my name from the Soviet Embassy with +congratulations on the October Revolution--on the date of the October +Revolution. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you think that that came in that Exhibit 19, do you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because the date coincides, and I didn't get any +other letters. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 19. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be in the record and given the next number. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 19, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. In some newspaper accounts your mother-in-law has intimated +that your husband might have been an agent for some government, and +that she might have--did have information in that regard. + +Do you know anything about that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The first time that I hear anything about this. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is all untrue, of course. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know that you husband was at any time an agent +of the Soviet Union? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know that your husband was an agent of the +Cuban government at any time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know that your husband was an agent of any +agency of the United States Government? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know that your husband was an agent of any +government? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any idea of the motive which induced your +husband to kill the President? + +Mrs. OSWALD. From everything that I know about my husband, and of the +events that transpired, I can conclude that he wanted in any way, +whether good or bad, to do something that would make him outstanding, +that he would be known in history. + +Mr. RANKIN. And is it then your belief that he assassinated the +President, for this purpose? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is my opinion. I don't know how true that is. + +Mr. RANKIN. And what about his shooting at General Walker? Do you think +he had the same motive or purpose in doing that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think that, yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. After the assassination, were you coerced or abused in any +way by the police or anyone else in connection with the inquiry about +the assassination? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you see or speak to your husband on November 22d, +following his arrest? + +Mrs. OSWALD. On the 22d I did not see him. + +On the 23d I met with him. + +Mr. RANKIN. And when you met with him on the 23d, was it at your +request or his? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know whether he requested it, but I know that I +wanted to see him. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you request the right to see your husband on the 22d, +after his arrest? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And what answer were you given at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I was not permitted to. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who gave you that answer? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. The police. + +Mr. RANKIN. You don't know what officer of the police? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where did you spend the evening on the night of the +assassination? + +Mrs. OSWALD. On the day of the assassination, on the 22d, after +returning from questioning by the police, I spent the night with Mrs. +Paine, together with Lee's mother. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you receive any threats from anyone at this time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did any law enforcement agency offer you protection at that +time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you saw your husband on November 23d, the day after +the assassination, did you have a conversation with him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And where did this occur? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In the police department. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were just the two of you together at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, the mother was there together with me. + +Mr. RANKIN. At that time what did you say to him and what did he say to +you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. You probably know better than I do what I told him. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, I need your best recollection, if you can give it to +us, Mrs. Oswald. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Of course he tried to console me that I should not worry, +that everything would turn out well. He asked about how the children +were. He spoke of some friends who supposedly would help him. I don't +know who he had in mind. That he had written to someone in New York +before that. I was so upset that of course I didn't understand anything +of that. It was simply talk. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that the police had been there and that a +search had been conducted, that they had asked me whether we had a +rifle, and I had answered yes. + +And he said that if there would be a trial, and that if I am questioned +it would be my right to answer or to refuse to answer. + +Mr. GOPADZE. She asked me if she talked about that thing, the first +evening when I talked to her with the FBI agents, she asked me if she +didn't have to tell me if she didn't want to. And warning her of her +constitutional rights, telling her she didn't have to tell me anything +she didn't want to--at that time, she told me she knew about that, that +she didn't have to tell me if she didn't want to. + +Mrs. OSWALD. And he then asked me, "Who told you you had that right?" +And then I understood that he knew about it. + +Mr. GOPADZE. At that time I did not know. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I thought you had been told about it because the +conversation had certainly been written down. I am sure that while I +was talking to Lee--after all, this was not some sort of a trial of a +theft, but a rather important matter, and I am sure that everything was +recorded. + +Mr. RANKIN. Let me see if I can clarify what you were saying. + +As I understand it, Mr. Gopadze had talked to you with the FBI agents +after the assassination, and they had cautioned you that you didn't +have to talk, in accordance with your constitutional rights, is that +correct? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you told Mr. Gopadze you already knew that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember what I told him. + +Mr. GOPADZE. Mrs. Oswald, on her own accord, asked me, or told me that +she didn't have to tell us anything she didn't want to. + +I said, "That is right." + +Mrs. OSWALD. I disliked him immediately, because he introduced himself +as being from the FBI. I was at that time very angry at the FBI because +I thought perhaps Lee is not guilty, and they have merely tricked him. + +Mr. GOPADZE. Mr. Rankin, may I, for the benefit of the Commission--I +would like to mention that I didn't represent myself as being an FBI +agent. I just said that I was a government agent, with the FBI. And I +introduced both agents to Mrs. Oswald. + +Mr. RANKIN. And, Mrs. Oswald, you thought he was connected with the FBI +in some way, did you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He had come with them, and I decided he must have been. + +Mr. RANKIN. And your ill feeling towards the FBI was---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. He did not tell me that he was with the FBI, but he was +with them. + +Mr. RANKIN. Your ill feeling towards the FBI was due to the fact that +you thought they were trying to obtain evidence to show your husband +was guilty in regard to the assassination? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. But you have said since the assassination that you didn't +want to believe it, but you had to believe that your husband had killed +President Kennedy, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. There were some facts, but not too many, and I didn't +know too much about it at that time yet. After all, there are in life +some accidental concurrences of circumstances. And it is very difficult +to believe in that. + +Mr. RANKIN. But from what you have learned since that time, you arrived +at this conclusion, did you, that your husband had killed the President? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Unfortunately, yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you related those facts that you learned to what you +already knew about your life with him and what you knew he had done and +appeared to be doing in order to come to that conclusion? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you saw your husband on November 23d, at the police +station, did you ask him if he had killed President Kennedy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him at that time if he had killed Officer +Tippit? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I said, "I don't believe that you did that, and +everything will turn out well." + +After all, I couldn't accuse him--after all, he was my husband. + +Mr. RANKIN. And what did he say to that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said that I should not worry, that everything would +turn out well. But I could see by his eyes that he was guilty. Rather, +he tried to appear to be brave. However, by his eyes I could tell that +he was afraid. + +This was just a feeling. It is hard to describe. + +Mr. RANKIN. Would you help us a little bit by telling us what you saw +in his eyes that caused you to think that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said goodbye to me with his eyes. I knew that. He said +that everything would turn out well, but he did not believe it himself. + +Mr. RANKIN. How could you tell that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I saw it in his eyes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband ever at any time say to you that he was +responsible or had anything to do with the killing of President Kennedy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. After Kennedy--I only saw him once, and he didn't tell me +anything, and I didn't see him again. + +Mr. RANKIN. And did he at any time tell you that he had anything to do +with the shooting of Officer Tippit? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever ask your husband why he ran away or tried to +escape after the assassination? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't ask him about that. + +Mr. RANKIN. On either November 22d, or Saturday, November 23d, did +anyone contact you and advise you that your husband was going to be +shot? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where did you spend the evening of November 23d? + +Mrs. OSWALD. After seeing Lee, we went with some reporters of Life +Magazine who had rented a room, but it turned out to be--in a +hotel--but it turned out to be inconvenient because there were many +people there and we went to another place. We were in a hotel in +Dallas, but I don't know the name. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who was with you at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's mother. + +Mr. RANKIN. Anyone else? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No--June and Rachel. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was Robert with you at all? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I saw Robert in the police--at the police station, but he +did not stay with us at the hotel. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, the evening of November 22d, were you at Ruth Paine's +house? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. At that time did the reporters come there and the Life +reporters, and ask you and your mother-in-law and Mrs. Paine about what +had happened? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. We have a report that there was quite a scene between Mrs. +Paine and your mother-in-law at that time. Was there such an event? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I did not understand English too well, and I did not know +what they were quarreling about. I know that the reporters wanted to +talk to me, but his mother made a scene and went into hysterics, and +said I should not talk and that she would not talk. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did she say why she would not talk? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps she said it in English. I didn't understand. She +talked to the reporters. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did she say anything about being paid if she was going to +tell any story? + +Mrs. OSWALD. She has a mania--only money, money, money. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand that she was quarreling with Ruth Paine +about something concerning the interview? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. It appeared to be a quarrel, but what they quarreled +about, I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. And after the quarrel, did you leave there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I went to my room. But then I showed Lee's mother the +photograph, where he is photographed with a rifle, and told her he +had shot at Walker and it appeared he might have been shooting at the +President. She said that I should hide that photograph and not show it +to anyone. + +On the next day I destroyed one photograph which I had. I think I had +two small ones. When we were in the hotel I burned it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to her about the destruction of the +photographs when she suggested that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. She saw it, while I was destroying them. + +Mr. RANKIN. After the assassination, did the police and FBI and the +Secret Service ask you many questions? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In the police station there was a routine regular +questioning, as always happens. And then after I was with the agents +of the Secret Service and the FBI, they asked me many questions, of +course--many questions. Sometimes the FBI agents asked me questions +which had no bearing or relationship, and if I didn't want to answer +they told me that if I wanted to live in this country, I would have to +help in this matter, even though they were often irrelevant. That is +the FBI. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who said that to you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Heitman and Bogoslav, who was an interpreter for the +FBI. + +Mr. RANKIN. You understand that you do not have to tell this Commission +in order to stay in this country, don't you, now? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. You are not under any compulsion to tell the Commission +here in order to be able to stay in the country. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I understand that. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you have come here because you want to tell us what you +could about this matter, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is my voluntary wish, and no one forced me to do this. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did these various people from the police and the Secret +Service and the FBI treat you courteously when they asked you about the +matters that they did, concerning the assassination and things leading +up to it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have a very good opinion about the Secret Service, and +the people in the police department treated me very well. But the FBI +agents were somehow polite and gruff. Sometimes they would mask a gruff +question in a polite form. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you see anyone from the Immigration Service during this +period of time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who that was? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the name. I think he is the chairman of +that office. At least he was a representative of that office. + +Mr. RANKIN. By "that office" you mean the one at Dallas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I was told that he had especially come from New York, it +seems to me. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That if I was not guilty of anything, if I had not +committed any crime against this Government, then I had every right +to live in this country. This was a type of introduction before the +questioning by the FBI. He even said that it would be better for me if +I were to help them. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he explain to you what he meant by being better for you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In the sense that I would have more rights in this +country. I understood it that way. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand that you were being threatened with +deportation if you didn't answer these questions? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I did not understand it that way. + +You see, it was presented in such a delicate form, but there was a +clear implication that it would be better if I were to help. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. This was only felt. It wasn't said in actual words. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel that it was a threat? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This was not quite a threat--it was not a threat. But it +was their great desire that I be in contact, in touch with the FBI. I +sensed that. + +Mr. RANKIN. But you did not consider it to be a threat to you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone indicate that it would affect your ability to +work in this country if you cooperated? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else about your treatment by law +enforcement officials during this period that you would like to tell +the Commission about? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think that the FBI agents knew that I was afraid that +after everything that had happened I could not remain to live in this +country, and they somewhat exploited that for their own purposes, in a +very polite form, so that you could not say anything after that. They +cannot be accused of anything. They approached it in a very clever, +contrived way. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was there anyone else of the law enforcement officials that +you felt treated you in that manner? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. As for the rest, I was quite content. Everyone was +very attentive towards me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where were you on the morning of November 24th when your +husband was killed? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The night from the 23d to the 24th I spent at a hotel in +Dallas, together with the mother. She wanted to make sure that the +Life reporters who had taken this room would pay for it, as they had +promised. But they disappeared. Then she telephoned Robert, it seems to +me, and Gregory--no, Mr. Gregory. And I know that he came with Robert, +and Robert paid for the room. And, after that, after we left the hotel, +we met with the Secret Service agents. I wanted to see Lee, and we were +supposed to go to the police station to see him. + +Mr. RANKIN. That was on November 24th, on Sunday? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And then what happened? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember whether we went to Ruth to take my things +or perhaps--in general, I remember that en route, in the car, Mike +Howard or Charley Kunkel said that Lee had been shot today. + +At first he said that it wasn't serious--perhaps just not to frighten +me. I was told that he had been taken to a hospital, and then I was +told that he had been seriously wounded. + +Then they had to telephone somewhere. They stopped at the house of the +chief of police, Curry. From there, I telephone Ruth to tell her that I +wanted to take several things which I needed with me and asked her to +prepare them. And that there was a wallet with money and Lee's ring. + +Soon after that--Robert was no longer with me, but Gregory was there, +and the mother, and the Secret Service agents. They said that Lee had +died. + +After that, we went to the Motel Inn, the Six Flags Inn, where I stayed +for several days--perhaps two weeks--I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what time of the day you heard that your +husband had been shot? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Two o'clock in the afternoon, I think. + +Mr. RANKIN. And where were you at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I was in a car. + +Mr. RANKIN. Just riding around, or at some particular place? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, not at two o'clock--earlier. Lee was shot at 11 +o'clock. It was probably close to 12 o'clock. He died at one. + +Mr. RANKIN. And where was the car that you were in at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. We were on the way to Chief Curry, en route from the hotel. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you do after you went to the motel? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I left with Robert and we prepared for the funeral. + +Then Ruth Paine sent my things to me via the agent. + +Mr. GOPADZE. She would like a recess for a little while. She has a +headache. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes, we will recess. + +(Brief recess) + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Do you feel refreshed +now, Mrs. Oswald, ready to proceed? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, thank you. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well. + +Mr. Rankin? + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I asked you if you asked your husband about +his efforts to escape, why he did that. I will ask you now whether +in light of what you said about his seeking notoriety in connection +with the assassination, in your opinion how you explain his efforts to +escape, which would presumably not give him that notoriety. + +Mrs. OSWALD. When he did that, he probably did it with the intention of +becoming notorious. But after that, it is probably a normal reaction of +a man to try and escape. + +Mr. RANKIN. You will recall that in the interviews, after the +assassination, you first said that you thought your husband didn't do +it, do you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember it, but quite possibly I did say that. + +You must understand that now I only speak the truth. + +Mr. RANKIN. Recently you said that you thought your husband did kill +President Kennedy. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I now have enough facts to say that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us or the Commission an idea generally about +when you came to this latter conclusion, that he did kill President +Kennedy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps a week after it all happened, perhaps a little +more. The more facts came out, the more convinced I was. + +Mr. RANKIN. You have stated in some of your interviews that your +husband would get on his knees and cry and say that he was lost. Do you +recall when this happened? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That was in New Orleans. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was it more than one occasion? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When he said that, that was only once. + +Mr. RANKIN. And do you know what caused him to say that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether there was some occasion or some +happening that caused it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your mother-in-law ever indicate that she had some +particular evidence, either oral or documentary, that would decide this +case? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, she always said that she has a pile of papers and +many acquaintances. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever ask her to tell you what it was that would be +so decisive about the case? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I would have liked to ask her, but I didn't speak any +English. And then I didn't believe her. What documents could she have +when she had not seen Lee for one year, and she didn't even know we +lived in New Orleans? + +I think that is just simply idle talk, that she didn't have anything. + +Perhaps she does have something. + +But I think that it is only she who considers that she has something +that might reveal, uncover this. + +Mr. RANKIN. Has there been any time that you wanted to see your +mother-in-law that you have been prevented from doing so? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Never. + +I don't want to see her, I didn't want to. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I am going to ask you about differences +between you and your mother-in-law, not for the purpose of embarrassing +you in any way, but since we are going to ask her to testify it might +be helpful to the Commission to know that background. + +I hope you will bear with us. + +Have you had some differences with your mother-in-law? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry that you will devote your time to questioning +her, because you will only be tired and very sick after talking to +her. I am very much ashamed to have this kind of relationship to my +mother-in-law. I would like to be closer to her and to be on better +terms with her. But when you get to know her, you will understand why. +I don't think that she can help you. + +But if it is a formality, then, of course. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can you describe for the Commission your +differences so the Commission will be able to evaluate those +differences? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, she asserts, for example, that I don't know +anything, that I am being forced to say that Lee is guilty in +everything, that she knows more. + +This is what our differences are. + +Mr. RANKIN. And have you responded to her when she said those things? + +Mrs. OSWALD. She said this by means of newspapers and television. + +I haven't seen her. + +I would like to tell her that, but it is impossible to tell her that, +because she would scratch my eyes out. + +Mr. RANKIN. Are there any other differences between you and your +mother-in-law that you have not described? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, there are no more. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any time that your husband had money in +excess of what he obtained from the jobs he was working on? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. He had his unemployment insurance when he was out of work. +Is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And then he had the earnings from his jobs, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, beyond those amounts, do you know of any sum of money +that he had from any source? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he was ever acting as an undercover +agent for the FBI. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you believe that he was at any time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not he was acting as an agent for +the CIA at any time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you believe that he was? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you know Jack Ruby, the man that killed your husband? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Before the murder of your husband by Jack Ruby, had you +ever known of him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, never. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your husband knew Jack Ruby before the +killing? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He was not acquainted with him. Lee did not frequent +nightclubs, as the papers said. + +Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He was always with me. He doesn't like other women. He +didn't drink. Why should he then go? + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason why Jack Ruby killed your husband? + +Mrs. OSWALD. About that, Jack Ruby should be questioned. + +Mr. RANKIN. I have to ask you, Mrs. Oswald. + +Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't tell me. + +Mr. RANKIN. And do you know any reason why he should? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know, but it seems to me that he was a sick person +at that time, perhaps. At least when I see his picture in the paper +now, it is an abnormal face. + +Mr. RANKIN. Has your husband ever mentioned the name Jack Ruby to you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. He never at any time said anything about Jack Ruby that you +can recall? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, never. I heard that name for the first time after he +killed Lee. + +I would like to consult with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Gopadze. + +The CHAIRMAN. You may. + +(Brief recess) + +The CHAIRMAN. All right. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, would you like to add something to your +testimony? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This is in connection with why I left the room. I +will tell you why I left the room. + +I consulted with my attorney, whether I should bring this up. This is +not a secret. The thing is that I have written a letter, even though I +have not mailed it yet, to the attorney--to the prosecuting attorney +who will prosecute Jack Ruby. I wrote in that letter that even--that +if Jack Ruby killed my husband, and I felt that I have a right as the +widow of the man he killed to say that, that if he killed him he should +be punished for it. But that in accordance with the laws here, the +capital punishment, the death penalty is imposed for such a crime, and +that I do not want him to be subjected to that kind of a penalty. I +do not want another human life to be taken. And I don't want it to be +believed because of this letter that I had been acquainted with Ruby, +and that I wanted to protect him. + +It is simply that it is pity to--I feel sorry for another human life. +Because this will not return--bring back to life Kennedy or the others +who were killed. But they have their laws, and, of course, I do not +have the right to change them. That is only my opinion, and perhaps +they will pay some attention to it. + +That is all. + +Mr. RANKIN. Had you ever been in the Carousel Nightclub? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have never been in nightclubs. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you know where it was located before your husband was +killed by Jack Ruby? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know it now either. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us whether your husband was right handed or +left handed? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, he was right handed. + +His brother writes with his left hand and so does--his brother and +mother both write with their left hand. + +And since I mentioned Jack Ruby, the mother and Robert want Ruby to be +subjected to a death penalty. And in that we differ. + +Mr. RANKIN. Have they told you the reason why they wanted the death +penalty imposed? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In their view, a killing has to be repaid by a killing. + +In my opinion, it is not so. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything more about the assassination of President +Kennedy that you know that you have not told the Commission? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know anything. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything that your husband ever told you about +proposing to assassinate President Kennedy that you haven't told the +Commission? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mrs. Oswald, we will turn to some period in Russia, +and ask you about that for a little while. + +Can you tell us the time and place of your birth? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I was born on July 17, 1941, in Severo Dvinsk, in the +Arkhangelskaya Region. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who were your parents? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Names? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes, please. + +Mrs. OSWALD. My mother was Clogia Vasilyevna Proosakova. She was a +laboratory assistant. + +Mr. RANKIN. And your father? + +Mrs. OSWALD. And I had a stepfather. I had no father. I never knew him. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who did you live with as a child? + +Mrs. OSWALD. With my stepfather, with my mother, and sometimes with my +grandmother--grandmother on my mother's side. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you live with your grandparents before you went back to +live with your mother and your stepfather? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I lived with my grandmother until I was approximately +five years old. + +Mr. RANKIN. And then you moved to live with your mother and your +stepfather, did you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And was that in Leningrad? + +Mrs. OSWALD. After the war, we lived in Moldavia for some time. After +the war it was easier to live there, better to live there. And then we +returned to Leningrad where we lived with my stepfather's mother--also +with my half brother and half sister. + +Mr. RANKIN. What was your stepfather's business? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He was an electrician in a power station in Leningrad. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have brothers and sisters? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. How many? + +Mrs. OSWALD. One brother, one sister--from my mother's second marriage. + +Mr. RANKIN. How old were they? + +Mrs. OSWALD. How old are they, or were they? + +Mr. RANKIN. Are they--I mean in comparison with your age. Were they +three or four years older than you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. My brother is 5 years younger than I am. My sister is +probably 9 years younger than I am. About four years between brother +and sister. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your stepfather was a member of the +Communist Party? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is, you don't know, or you know he was not? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I know that he was not a member. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you live for a period with your mother alone? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. After my mother's death, I continued to live with my +stepfather, and later went to live in Minsk, with my uncle--my mother's +brother. + +Mr. RANKIN. What was your stepfather's name? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Alexandr Ivanovich Medvedev. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did you leave the home of your stepfather? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In 1961. No--1959. + +Mr. RANKIN. What was your grandfather's occupation? + +Mrs. OSWALD. On my mother's side? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. He was a ship's captain. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was he a member of the Communist Party? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. He died shortly after the war. + +Mr. RANKIN. Which war? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Second. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you get along well with your grandparents? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I was their favorite. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you get along with your stepfather? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I was not a good child. I was too fresh with him. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your mother and your stepfather move to Zguritsa? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is in Moldavia, where we lived. That is after the +war. It was a very good life there. They still had some kulaks, a lot +of food, and we lived very well. + +After the war, people lived there pretty well, but they were +dekulakized subsequently. + +By the way, I don't understand all of that, because these people worked +with their own hands all their lives. I was very sorry when I heard +that everything had been taken away from them and they had been sent +somewhere to Siberia where after living in the south it would be very +cold. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your mother have any occupation? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, laboratory assistant--I said that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was she a member of the Communist Party? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall when your mother died? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In 1957. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you receive a pension after your mother's death? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. How much was it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. All children received pensions. + +We received for it 3520 rubles, the old rubles. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was that called a children's pension? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. It was paid up to majority, up to the age of 18. + +Mr. RANKIN. And was it paid to you directly or to your stepfather? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It was paid to me directly. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your brother and sister get a similar pension? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your stepfather adopt you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I was not adopted. + +Mr. RANKIN. What was your relationship with your half brother? Did you +get along with him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I loved them very much, and they loved me. + +Mr. RANKIN. And your half sister, too? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. They are very good children. Not like me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what schools you went to? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At first I went to school in Moldavia, and later in +Leningrad, in a girl's school and then after finishing school I studied +in a pharmaceutical institute--pharmaceutical school, rather than +institute. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where was the pharmaceutical school? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In Leningrad. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you go through high school before you went to the +pharmaceutical school? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the names of any of your teachers? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Dmitry Rossovsky. I remember the director of the school, +Nadelman Matvey Akimovich. It is hard to remember now. I have already +forgotten. I have had good teachers. They treated me very well, they +helped me after my mother died. Knowing my difficult nature, they +approached me very pedagogically. But now I would have changed that +nature. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you a good student? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I was capable but lazy. I never spent much time studying. +You know, everything came to me very easily. Sometimes my ability saved +me. My language, you know--I talk a lot, and get a good grade. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you work part-time while you were going to school? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. The money which I received on the pension was not +enough, and therefore I had to work as well as study. + +Mr. RANKIN. And what did you do in working? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At first I worked in a school cafeteria, school lunchroom. +This was good for me, because I also got enough to eat that way. + +And then I felt the work was not for me, that it was too restricted, +and then I worked in a pharmacy. Then when I graduated I worked in a +pharmacy as a full-fledged pharmacist--as a pharmacist's assistant. + +Mr. RANKIN. Before you graduated, how much were you paid for your work? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think I received 36 per month--this is new rubles--at +that time it was still 360 old rubles. But I could eat there three +times a day. And then this was a lunchroom that was part of a large +restaurant where everyone liked me and I always was treated to all +sorts of tidbits and candy. I remember they had some busboys there who +always saved something for me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you save any money while you were working before you +graduated? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know how to save money. I like to make presents. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where did you work after you graduated? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I was assigned to work in Leningrad, but my stepfather +didn't want me to remain with him because he thought perhaps he would +marry again, and, therefore, I left. + +But he hasn't married up until now. + +Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 20, and ask you if you know what that is. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is my diploma. My goodness, what did they do with my +diploma? + +I can't work with it. The government seal is missing. Who will give me +a new diploma? + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I want to explain to you--the Commission +hasn't done anything to your diploma. We are informed that---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. They should have treated it a little more carefully, +though. + +Mr. RANKIN. The process was trying to determine fingerprints. It wasn't +our action. + +Mrs. OSWALD. There must be many fingerprints on there. All of my +teachers and everybody that ever looked at it. I am sorry--it is a pity +for my diploma. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 20. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 20, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why on Exhibit 20 there is no date of admission +to the school? + +Mrs. OSWALD. There is no entrance date on it, but it does show the date +of issue and the date of graduation. + +Mr. RANKIN. Isn't there a place for admission, though? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, there is a place for it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when you were admitted to the school? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In 1955. + +Mr. KRIMER. I might mention the place here is for the year only, not +for a full date. + +Mr. DULLES. 1955, did you say? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, 1955. + +Mr. RANKIN. In this job that you obtained after you left the school, +what were your duties? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When I worked in the pharmacy? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I worked in a hospital pharmacy. I prepared prescriptions. +After the rounds every day, the doctors prescribed prescriptions, and +the nurses of each department of the hospital enter that in a book, +and turn it over to the pharmacy for preparation, where we again +transcribed it from the nurses' book as a prescription and prepared it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you assigned to a particular job or did you go out and +get the job? How was that arranged? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Generally upon graduation there is an assignment. I was +sent to work to a drug warehouse in Leningrad. But this work was not +very interesting, because everything was in packages. It is more of a +warehousing job. And, therefore, if I had wanted to change I could have +changed to any pharmacy. This assignment is only performed in order to +guarantee that the graduate has a job. But the graduate can go to work +somewhere else. + +Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay in this first job? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I was there for three days, which is a probationary +period, intended to have the employee familiarize himself with his +duties. I didn't like that work, and I went to Minsk, and worked there. +I worked there in my own specialty with pleasure. But the reference +which I received after I was going to the United States was not very +good, because they were very dissatisfied with the fact that I was +going to the United States. They could not understand how could it be +that a good worker could leave. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you select Minsk as a place to go and work yourself? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. You were not assigned there, then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Could you have selected other places that you wished to go +to and work? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but the registration is very difficult. In Russia you +cannot settle in a large city if you are not registered. + +Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. If I lived in Leningrad, I had the right to work there. +But if someone would come there from a village he would not have the +right to work, because he was not registered and he would not be +permitted to. But to move from a larger city to a smaller one, then +they may register, such as Minsk. + +Mr. RANKIN. By register, do you mean that if you want to go to a place +like Leningrad, you had to be recorded some way in the city? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is, registered in the police department. + +Mr. RANKIN. And if you were not registered, they would not give you a +job, is that what you mean? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +No, you would not get a job. There are people who want to come to +Leningrad. The housing problem has not been solved. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us how you get registered if you would like to +be registered in Leningrad from some other point? + +Mrs. OSWALD. First you must have relatives who might have some spare +living space for a person. Sometimes people who have money buy that. +You know money does a great deal everywhere. + +Mr. RANKIN. And then after you have shown that you have a place to +live, do they register you as a matter of course, or do you have to +have something else? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Not always. One has to have connections, acquaintances. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you registered in Leningrad before you left there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. But if I had spent one year not living in +Leningrad, and were to return, I would not be registered. + +Mr. RANKIN. But since you were registered there, you could have found a +position in some pharmacy or pharmaceutical work there, could you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, of course. + +Mr. RANKIN. Then, can you tell us how you decided to go to Minsk +instead of staying in Leningrad? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I was very sorry to leave Leningrad, but there were family +circumstances. + +What can one do? + +It is not very pleasant to be a sty in the eye of a stepfather. + +Mr. RANKIN. So it is because you liked to leave your stepfather's home +that you sought some other city in which to work? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I had no other place to live in Leningrad, and I did +not have enough money to pay for an apartment. + +I received 45 and I would have had to pay 30 for an apartment. + +Mr. RANKIN. Could you have gotten a job in Leningrad if you stayed +there that would pay you so you could have an apartment? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Pharmaceutical workers received comparatively little, +which is quite undeserved, because they have to study so long, and it +is responsible work. Teachers and doctors also receive very little. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you conclude that you could not get a job that would +pay you enough to live in your own apartment in Leningrad, then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. If I had an apartment in Leningrad. I would have had to +work overtime hours in order to be able to pay for it, because the +normal workday is only 6-1/2 hours, because they consider that to be +hazardous work. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a social life while you were in Leningrad? + +Mrs. OSWALD. What do you mean by social life? + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have friends that you went out with in the evening, +pleasant times? + +Mrs. OSWALD. An awful lot. + +Mr. RANKIN. So that except for the problem of your stepfather, you +enjoyed it there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, of course. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any vacations while you were in Leningrad? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. After working in Minsk for one year I received a +vacation and went to a rest home near Leningrad. + +Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay there on vacation? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Three weeks. Three weeks in the rest home, and one week I +spent in Leningrad with some friends. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the name of the rest home? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have to ask anyone in Leningrad in order to be able +to leave there to go to Minsk, or you just go to Minsk and ask the +people there to register you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I simply bought a ticket and went to Minsk, to my uncle. + +Mr. RANKIN. And were you registered there then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. What kind of pay did you get when you worked in Minsk? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Forty-five, as everywhere. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was that per week? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, that is a month. That is not America. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is that 45 rubles? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Per month? + +Mr. DULLES. Old rubles or new rubles? + +Mr. RANKIN. Is that old rubles? + +Mrs. OSWALD. New rubles. + +Mr. RANKIN. What were your hours in this work? + +Mrs. OSWALD. 10 a.m., to 4:30 p.m. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you said this same pay was paid all over, did you mean +to say that you got the same amount regardless of whether you were in a +big city or a small city? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is the pharmacists rate everywhere. Unless you +work in a specialized sort of an institution, such as a military +hospital--there the pay is higher. + +Mr. RANKIN. What was the nature of your work? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Preparation of prescriptions. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you supervise the preparation of the prescriptions, or +did you just put them up yourself? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I prepared them myself. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a supervisor? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I was in charge of myself. If I was working at a table, I +was responsible for it. + +Of course every institution is in charge of a supervisor who does not +prepare medications--he is only an administrator. + +Mr. RANKIN. How many days of the week did you work on this job? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Six days. Except if a holiday falls upon a weekday. Then I +didn't work. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were these prescriptions prepared only for patients in the +hospital? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Sometimes we prepared something for ourselves or for +friends, or somebody would ask us. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you pay anything to your uncle and aunt for staying +there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. They had--they were well provided for, and my uncle +wanted that I spend the money on myself. + +Mr. RANKIN. What was the name of this uncle? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Ilva Vasilyevich Proosakov. + +Mr. RANKIN. What was the nature of his work? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He works in the Ministry of the Interior of the +Byelorussian SSR. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he have something to do with lumbering? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He is an engineer. He is a graduate of a forestry +institute. Technical institute. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is he an officer? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He was a colonel--a lieutenant colonel or colonel, I think. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a nice apartment compared with the others? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, very nice. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a telephone in the apartment? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you supporting yourself during this period except for +the fact you didn't pay anything for your room and board? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you save money? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I would receive my pay and I would spend everything in +one day--three days tops. + +Mr. RANKIN. What would you spend it for? + +Mrs. OSWALD. First all the necessary things which I had to buy--shoes, +an overcoat for winter. It is cold there, and, therefore, you have to +wear warm clothes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was your uncle a member of the Communist Party? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he is a Communist. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you belong to any organizations during this period in +Minsk? + +Mrs. OSWALD. First I was a member of the Trade Union. Then I joined the +Comsomol, but I was discharged after one year. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why you were discharged? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I paid my membership dues regularly, and at first they +didn't know who I was or what I was, but after they found out that +I had married an American and was getting ready to go to the United +States, I was discharged from the Comsomol. They said that I had +anti-Soviet views, even though I had no anti-Soviet views of any kind. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you think that they thought you had anti-Soviet views +because you married an American? + +Mrs. OSWALD. They didn't say that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did they give any reason, other than the fact that you had +them? + +Mrs. OSWALD. They never gave that as a direct reason, because the +Soviet Government was not against marrying an American. But every small +official wants to keep his place, and he is afraid of any troubles. I +think it was sort of insurance. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was there any kind of a hearing about your being let out of +the Comsomol? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you attend? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't go there, and they discharged me without me--I +was very glad. There was even a reporter there from Comsomol paper, +Comsomol Pravda, I think. He tried to shame me quite strongly--for +what, I don't know. And he said that he would write about this in the +paper, and I told him "Go ahead and write." + +But he didn't write anything, because, after all, what could he write? + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any objection to being removed from the +Comsomol? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you belong to any social clubs there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you belong to any culture groups? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you go out with groups of students in the evening? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. + +Mr. RANKIN. After you came to the United States, did you correspond +with some of these friends? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but these were not the same friends. They were +generally some girl friends before I was married and some friends we +made later. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a social life there at Minsk? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did that social life consist of? Did you go to parties +or to the opera or theater, or what? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes we met at the home of some friends. Of course +we went to the opera, to the theater, to concerts, to the circus. To a +restaurant. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did you first meet Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The first time when I went to a dance, to a party. And +there I met Lee. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date? + +Mrs. OSWALD. On March 4th. + +Mr. RANKIN. What year? + +Mrs. OSWALD. 1961. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where did you meet him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In Minsk. + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes--but can you tell us the place? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In the Palace of Trade Unions. + +Mr. RANKIN. What kind of a place is that? Is that where there are +public meetings? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes they do have meetings there. Sometimes it is +also rented by some institutes who do not have their own halls for +parties. + +Mr. RANKIN. They have dances? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Every Saturday and Sunday. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did someone introduce you to him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who introduced you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I had gone there with my friends from the medical +institute, and one of them introduced me to Lee. + +Mr. RANKIN. What was his name? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yuri Mereginsky. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know by what name Lee Oswald was introduced to you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Everyone there called him Alec, at his place of work, +because Lee is an unusual, cumbersome name. For Russians it was +easier--this was easier. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is Alec a name close to Lee, as far as the Russian language +is concerned? + +Mrs. OSWALD. A little. Somewhat similar. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you know that Lee Oswald was an American when you first +met him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I found that out at the end of that party, towards the end +of that party, when I was first introduced to him, I didn't know that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did that make any difference? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It was more interesting, of course. You don't meet +Americans very often. + +Mr. RANKIN. After this first meeting, did you meet him a number of +times? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you describe just briefly how you met him and saw him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. After the first meeting he asked me where he could meet me +again. I said that perhaps some day I will come back here again, to the +Palace. About a week later I came there again with my girl friend, and +he was there. + +Mr. RANKIN. And did he have a period that he was in the hospital there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I had arranged to meet with him again. I had already given +him a telephone number. But he went to a hospital and he called me +from there. We had arranged to meet on a Friday, and he called from +the hospital and said he couldn't because he was in the hospital and I +should come there, if I could. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn what was wrong with him then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He was near the ear, nose and throat section and it seems +that he had something wrong with his ears and also the glands or polyps. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you visit him regularly for some period of time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, quite frequently, because I felt sorry for him being +there alone. + +Mr. RANKIN. And did you observe a scar on his left arm? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He had a scar, but I found that out only after we were +married. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you find out about that scar? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When I asked him about it, he became very angry and asked +me never to ask about that again. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever explain to you what caused the scar? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever learn what caused the scar? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I found out here, now, recently. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn that he had tried to commit suicide at some +time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I found that out now. + +Mr. RANKIN. During the time Lee Oswald was courting you, did he talk +about America at all? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. + +Mr. RANKIN. What do you recall that he said about it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At that time, of course, he was homesick, and perhaps he +was sorry for having come to Russia. He said many good things. He said +that his home was warmer and that people lived better. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he talk about returning? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Then? No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he describe the life in America as being very +attractive? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. At least in front of others he always defended it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. It is strange to reconcile this. When he was there he was +saying good things about America. + +Mr. RANKIN. And when he was talking only to you, did he do that, too? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Before you were married, did you find out anything about +his plans to return to America? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn anything before you were married about the +fact that there might be some doubt whether he could return to the +United States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Once before we were married we had a talk and I asked him +whether he could return to the United States if he wanted to, and he +said no, he could not. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. At that time, he didn't. He said that when he had +arrived, he had thrown his passport on a table and said that he would +not return any more to the United States. He thought that they would +not forgive him such an act. + +Mr. RANKIN. Before you were married, did you ever say to him you would +like to go to the United States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what attracted you to him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. First, the fact that he was--he didn't look +like others. You could see he was an American. He was very neat, very +polite, not the way he was here, not as you know him here. And it +seemed that he would be a good family man. And he was good. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk about many things when you were together, when +he was courting you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. We talked about everything, about the moon and the weather. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where was he living at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In Minsk. By the way, on the same street where I lived. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he have an apartment? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. By the way, this was the same apartment where I had +dreamed to live. I didn't know about it yet. It had a very beautiful +balcony, terrace. I would look at that building sometimes and say it +would be good to visit in that building, visit someone there, but I +never thought that I would wind up living there. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you describe the number of rooms there were in his +apartment? + +Mrs. OSWALD. We had a small room--one room, kitchen, foyer, and +bathroom. A large terrace, balcony. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what he paid for rent? + +Mrs. OSWALD. For two it was quite sufficient. Seven and a half rubles +per month. + +Mr. RANKIN. Wasn't that pretty cheap for such a nice apartment? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was cheap. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was this apartment nicer than most in this city? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, in that city they have good apartments because the +houses are new. That is, on a Russian scale, of course. You cannot +compare it to private houses people live in here. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he have an automobile? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, no. In Russia this is a problem. In Russia it is +difficult to have an automobile. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a television set? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. Only a radio receiver, a record player. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a telephone? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No--I don't like television. + +Mr. RANKIN. Why? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The programs are not always interesting, and you can get +into a stupor just watching television. It is better to go to the +movies. + +Mr. RANKIN. What was his occupation at this time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He worked in a radio plant in Minsk. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what his work was? + +Mrs. OSWALD. As an ordinary laborer--metal worker. From that point of +view, he was nothing special. I had a greater choice in the sense that +many of my friends were engineers and doctors. But that is not the main +thing. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did others with a similar job have similar apartments? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The house in which we lived belonged to the factory in +which Lee worked. But, of course, no one had a separate apartment +for only two persons. I think that Lee had been given better living +conditions, better than others, because he was an American. If Lee had +been Russian, and we would have had two children, we could not have +obtained a larger apartment. But since he was an American, we would +have obtained the larger one. It seems to me that in Russia they treat +foreigners better than they should. It would be better if they treated +Russians better. Not all foreigners are better than the Russians. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say whether he liked this job? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't like it. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. First of all, he was being ordered around by someone. He +didn't like that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Anything else? + +Mrs. OSWALD. And the fact that it was comparatively dirty work. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about the Russian system, whether he +liked it or not? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He didn't like it. Not everything, but some things. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about Communists and whether he liked +that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't like Russian Communists. He said that they +joined the party not because of the ideas, but in order to obtain +better living conditions and to get the benefit of them. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did it appear to you that he had become disenchanted with +the Soviet system? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he had expected much more when he first arrived. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever tell you why he came to Russia? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said he had read a great deal about Russia, he was +interested in seeing the country, which was the first in the Socialist +camp about which much had been said, and he wanted to see it with his +own eyes. And, therefore, he wanted to be not merely a tourist, who is +being shown only the things that are good, but he wanted to live among +the masses and see. + +But when he actually did, it turned out to be quite difficult. + +The CHAIRMAN. I think we better adjourn now for the day. + +(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Thursday, February 6, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED + +The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 6, 1964, at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman +Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and +Allen W. Dulles, members. + +Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Melvin Aron +Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; +William D. Krimer, and Leon I. Gopadze, interpreters; and John M. +Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald. + + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. We will proceed again. +Mr. Rankin? + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, if I may return a moment with you to the time +that you told us about your husband practicing with the rifle at Love +Field. As I recall your testimony, you said that he told you that he +had taken the rifle and practiced with it there, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I knew that he practiced with it there. He told me, later. + +Mr. RANKIN. And by practicing with it, did you mean that he fired the +rifle there, as you understood it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what he did with it there. He probably fired +it. But I didn't see him. + +Mr. RANKIN. And then you said that you had seen him cleaning it after +he came back, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you recall your husband having any ammunition +around the house at any time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And where do you remember his having it in the places you +lived? + +Mrs. OSWALD. On Neely Street, in Dallas, and New Orleans. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether that was rifle ammunition or rifle and +pistol ammunition? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was for the rifle. Perhaps he had some pistol +ammunition there, but I would not know the difference. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe how much ammunition he had at any time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He had a box of about the size of this. + +Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us a little description of how you indicated +the box? Was it 2 or 3 inches wide? + +Mrs. OSWALD. About the size here on the pad. + +Mr. RANKIN. About 3 inches wide and 6 inches long? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Probably. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you recall that you said to your husband at any +time that he was just studying Marxism so he could get attention? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. In order to cause him not to be so involved in some of +these ideas, did you laugh at some of his ideas that he told you about, +and make fun of him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he react to that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He became very angry. + +Mr. RANKIN. And did he ask you at one time, or sometimes, not to make +fun of his ideas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, returning to the period in Russia, while your husband +was courting you, did you talk to him, he talk to you, about his +childhood? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, not very much. Only in connection with photographs, +where he was a boy in New York, in the zoo. Then in the Army--there is +a snapshot taken right after he joined the Army. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you about anything he resented about his +childhood? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said it was hard for him during his childhood, when he +was a boy, because there was a great age difference between him and +Robert, and Robert was in some sort of a private school. He also wanted +to have a chance to study, but his mother was working, and he couldn't +get into a private school, and he was very sorry about it. + +Mr. RANKIN. In talking about that, did he indicate a feeling that he +had not had as good an opportunity as his brother Robert? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. When he talked about his service in the Marines, did he +tell you much about what he did? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't talk much about it, because there wasn't very +much there of interest to me. But he was satisfied. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he indicate that he was unhappy about his service with +the Marines? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, he had good memories of his service in the Army. He +said that the food was good and that sometimes evenings he had a chance +to go out. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about his mother during this period of +time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This was before we were married. I had once asked Lee +whether he had a mother, and he said he had no mother. I started to +question him as to what had happened, what happened to her, and he said +that I should not question him about it. + +After we were married, he told me that he had not told me the truth, +that he did have a mother, but that he didn't love her very much. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he didn't love her? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything more he said about his brother +Robert at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he had a good wife, that he had succeeded +fairly well in life, that he was smart and capable. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about having any affection for him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he loved Robert. He said that when Robert married +Vada that his mother had been against the marriage and that she had +made a scene, and this was one of the reasons he didn't like his mother. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about his half brother, by the name of +Pic--I guess the last name was Pic--Robert Pic? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he had a half brother by the name of Pic from +his mother's first marriage, but he didn't enlarge upon the subject. It +is only that I knew he had a half brother by that name. + +He said that at one time they lived with this John Pic and his wife, +but that his wife and the mother frequently had arguments, quarrels. He +said it was hard for him to witness these scenes, it was unpleasant. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you regard your husband's wage or salary at Minsk as +high for the work he was doing? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. He received as much as the others in similar jobs. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband have friends in Minsk when you first met +him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did he seem to get along with these friends? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He had a very good relationship with them. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he discuss any of them with you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us when you married your husband? + +Mrs. OSWALD. April 30, 1961. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was there a marriage ceremony? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Not in a church, of course. But in the institution called +Zags, where we were registered. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was anyone else present at the ceremony? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, our friends were there. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who else was there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No one besides my girlfriends and some acquaintances. My +uncle and aunt were busy preparing the house, and they were not there +for that reason. + +Mr. RANKIN. After you were married did you go to live in your husband's +apartment there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you buy any new furniture? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. When was your baby born? + +Mrs. OSWALD. February 15, 1962. + +Mr. RANKIN. What is her name? + +Mrs. OSWALD. June Lee Oswald. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you stop working before the birth of the baby? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you return to work after the baby was born? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did you and your husband get along during the period +that you were in Minsk, after you were married? + +Mrs. OSWALD. We lived well. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you a member of the trade union at Minsk? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a membership booklet? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, a booklet. + +Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 21 and ask you if that is the trade +union booklet that you had there. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I never have a good photograph. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 21. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 21 and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you pay dues to the trade union? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. We didn't notice any notation of dues payments in this +booklet, Exhibit 21. Do you know why that was? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I forgot to paste the stamps in. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is for the period between 1956 and 1959, they don't +seem to be in there. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. But you made the payments--you just didn't put the stamps +in, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Simply because this is not important. I got the +stamps, but the stubs remained with the person to whom I made the +payment. + +Mr. RANKIN. We noted that the book shows a birth date of 1940 rather +than 1941. Do you know how that happened? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The girl who prepared this booklet thought that I was +older and put down 1940 instead of 1941. + +Mr. RANKIN. The booklet doesn't seem to show any registration in Minsk. +Do you know why that would occur? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Because the booklet was issued in Leningrad. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is it the practice to record a registration in a city that +you move to, or isn't that a practice that is followed? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband engage in any Communist Party activities +while he was in the Soviet Union? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Not at all--absolutely not. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he was a member of any organization +there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he was also a member of a trade union, as +everybody who works belongs to a trade union. Then he had a card from a +hunting club, but he never visited it. He joined the club, apparently. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he go hunting while he was there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. We only went once, with him and with my friends. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was that when he went hunting for squirrels? + +Mrs. OSWALD. If he marked it down in his notebook that he went hunting +for squirrels, he never did. Generally they wanted to kill a squirrel +when we went there, or some sort of a bird, in order to boast about it, +but they didn't. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were there any times while he was in the Soviet Union after +your marriage that you didn't know where he went? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn that he was planning to try to go +back to the United States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. After we were married, perhaps a month after. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the matter at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. We didn't discuss it--we talked about it--because we +didn't make any specific plans. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what you said about it then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I said, "Well, if we will go, we will go. If we remain, it +doesn't make any difference to me. If we go to China, I will also go." + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you and your husband make a trip to Moscow in +connection with your plans to go to the United States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We went to the American Embassy. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband make a trip to Moscow alone before that? +About his passport? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't go alone. He actually left a day early and the +following morning I was to come there. + +Mr. RANKIN. I understood that he didn't get any permission to make this +trip to Moscow away from Minsk. Do you know whether that is true? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know about this. I know that he bought a ticket +and he made the flight. + +Mr. RANKIN. According to the practice, then, would he be permitted to +go to Moscow from Minsk without the permission of the authorities? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know whether he had the right to go to Moscow. +Perhaps he did, because he had a letter requesting him to visit the +Embassy. But he could not go to another city without permission of the +authorities. + +Mr. RANKIN. When the decision was made to come to the United States, +did you discuss that with your family? + +Mrs. OSWALD. First when we made the decision, we didn't know what would +come of it later, what would happen further. And Lee asked me not to +talk about it for the time being. + +Mr. RANKIN. Later, did you discuss it with your family? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Later when I went to visit the Embassy, my aunt found out +about it, because they had telephoned from work, and she was offended +because I had not told her about it. They were against our plan. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell your friends about your plans after you were +trying to arrange to go to the United States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was there some opposition by people in the Soviet Union to +your going to the United States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Somewhat. You can't really call that opposition. There +were difficult times. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what you mean by that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. First, the fact that I was excluded from the Komsomol. +This was not a blow for me, but it was, of course, unpleasant. Then +all kinds of meetings were arranged and members of the various +organizations talked to me. My aunt and uncle would not talk to me for +a long time. + +Mr. RANKIN. And that was all because you were planning to go to the +United States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you hospitalized and received medical treatment +because of all of these things that happened at that time, about your +leaving? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +What? + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any nervous disorder in 1961 that you were +hospitalized for? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I was nervous, but I didn't go to the hospital. I am +nervous now, too. + +Mr. RANKIN. Then you went to Kharkov on a vacation, didn't you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +If you have a record of the fact that I was in the hospital, yes, I +was. But I was in the hospital only as a precaution because I was +pregnant. I have a negative Rh factor, blood Rh factor, and if Lee had +a positive they thought--they thought that he had positive--even though +he doesn't. It turned out that we both had the same Rh factor. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you receive a promotion about this time in the work you +were doing? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, no one gets promoted. You work for 10 years as an +assistant. All the assistants were on the same level. There were no +sub-managers, except for the manager who was in charge of the pharmacy. + +Mr. RANKIN. What I am asking is your becoming an assistant druggist. +Was that something different? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At first I was--I have to call it--an analyst. My job was +to check prescriptions that had been prepared. There was no vacancy for +an assistant, pharmacy assistant at first. But then I liked the work of +a pharmacist's assistant better, and I changed to that. + +Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 22 and ask you if that is a book +that shows that you were promoted or became an assistant druggist. + +Mrs. OSWALD. The entry here said, "Hired as chemist analyst of the +pharmacy." + +The next entry says, "Transferred to the job of pharmacy assistant." + +These are simply different types of work. But one is not any higher +than the other--not because one is a type of management and the other +is not. If someone prepared a prescription and I checked it, that was +no different from the other work. There is a difference, of course, but +not in the sense of a grade of service. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 22. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 22, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I ask leave at this time to substitute +photostatic copies of any documentary evidence offered, and photographs +of any physical evidence, with the understanding that the originals +will be held subject to the further order of the Commission. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well. That may be done. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you aware of your husband's concern about being +prosecuted with regard to his returning to the United States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he told me about it. He told me about it, that +perhaps he might even be arrested. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was he fearful of prosecution by the Soviet Union or by the +United States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The United States. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any time that the Soviet authorities visited +your husband while you were trying to go to the United States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. What was the occasion for your traveling to Kharkov in 1961? + +Mrs. OSWALD. My mother's sister lives there, and she had invited me to +come there for a rest because I was on vacation. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone go with you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Three weeks, I think. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you write to your husband while you were gone? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was your aunt's name Mikhilova? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Mikhilova, yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was there any reason why you took this vacation alone and +not with your husband? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He was working at that time. He didn't have a vacation. He +wanted to go with me, but he could not. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what delayed your departure to the United +States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. There was some correspondence with the Embassy about your +husband returning alone. Did you ever discuss that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that, and what did you say? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said that if he did go alone, he feared that they would +not permit me to leave, and that he would, therefore, wait for me. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I thanked him for the fact that he wanted to wait for me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where did you stay in Moscow when you went there about your +visa? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At first, we stopped at the Hotel Ostamkino. And then we +moved to the Hotel Berlin, formerly Savoy. + +Mr. RANKIN. How long were you there on that trip? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think about 10 days, perhaps a little longer. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever have any status in the armed forces of the +Soviet Union? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. But all medical workers, military, are obligated--all +medical workers have a military obligation. In the event of a war, we +would be in first place. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever learn from your husband how he paid his +expenses in Moscow for the period prior to the time you went to Minsk? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 23 and ask you if that is a booklet that +records your military status. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't work. It is simply that I was obligated. There is +an indication there "non-Party member". + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 23. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be received. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 23, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. As I understand you, you did not serve in the armed forces +of the Soviet Union, but because of your ability as a pharmacist, you +were obligated, if the call was ever extended to you, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason why your husband was permitted to +stay in the Soviet Union when he first came there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Many were surprised at that--here and in Russia. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why he went to Minsk, or was allowed to go to +Minsk? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He was sent to Minsk. + +Mr. RANKIN. By that, you mean by direction of the government? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband do any writing while he was in the Soviet +Union that you know of? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he wrote a diary about his stay in the Soviet Union. + +Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 24 and ask you if that is a photostatic +copy of the diary that you have just referred to. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is Lee's handwriting. It is a pity that I don't +understand it. + +Is that all? It seems to me there was more. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, that is all of the historic diary that we +have received. There are some other materials that I will call your +attention to, but apparently they are not part of that. + +I offer in evidence Exhibit 24. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 24, and +received in evidence.) + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is all that only has reference to this? Or is that +everything that Lee had written? + +Mr. RANKIN. No, it is not all that he ever wrote, but it is all that +apparently fits together as a part of the descriptive diary in regard +to the time he was in Russia. + +Do you know when your husband made Exhibit 24, as compared with doing +it daily or from time to time--how it was made? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes two or three days in a row. Sometimes he would +not write at all. In accordance with the way he felt about it. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, you said a few moments ago it was a pity +that you could not read this. Would you like to have the interpreter +read it to you later, so you will know what is in it? + +You may, if you wish. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Some other time, later, when I know English myself perhaps. + +The CHAIRMAN. You may see it any time you wish. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I just heard Mr. Thorne ask if there was any +reason why they could not have photocopies of the exhibits. I know no +reason. + +The CHAIRMAN. No, there is no reason why you cannot. You may have it. + +Mr. THORNE. Thank you. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald has raised the question about whether this was +complete. And this was all that was given us, as Exhibit 24, but we are +going to check back on it to determine whether there was anything that +may have been overlooked by the Bureau when they gave it to us. + +Mrs. Oswald, your husband apparently made another diary that he wrote +on some paper of the Holland America Line. Are you familiar with that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 25 and ask you if you recall having +seen that. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I know this paper, but I didn't know what was contained in +it. I didn't know this was a diary. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what it was? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Possibly I misdescribed it, Mrs. Oswald. It may be more +accurately described as a story of his experiences in the Soviet Union. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know even when he wrote this, whether this was +aboard the ship or after we came to the United States. I only know the +paper itself and the handwriting. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether it is your husband's handwriting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 25. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 25, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how much money you and your husband had in +savings when you left Moscow for the United States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know, because Lee did not tell me how much +money he had, because he knew that if he would tell me I would spend +everything. But I think that we might have had somewhere about 300 +rubles, or somewhat more, 350 perhaps. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did you travel from Moscow to the United States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I told you--from Moscow by train, through Poland, Germany, +and Holland, and from Holland by boat to New York. From New York to +Dallas by air. + +Mr. RANKIN. I think you told us by another ship from Holland. I wonder +if it wasn't the SS _Maasdam_. Does that refresh your memory? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps. I probably am mixed up in the names because it is +a strange name. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that you exchanged United States money for +Polish money during this trip? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, in Warsaw, on the black market. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you buy food there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Some good Polish beer and a lot of candy. + +By the way, we got an awful lot for one dollar, they were so happy to +get it. More than the official rate. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband drink then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. He doesn't drink beer, he doesn't drink anything, he +doesn't like beer. I drank the beer. I don't like wine, by the way. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that you or your husband were contacted at +any time in the Soviet Union by Soviet Intelligence people? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. During the time your husband was in the Soviet Union, did +you observe any indication of mental disorder? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did he appear to get along with people that he knew in +the Soviet Union? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Very well. At least, he had friends there. He didn't have +any here. + +Mr. RANKIN. How much time did you spend in Amsterdam on the way to the +United States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Two or three days, it seems to me. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you do there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Walked around the city, did some sightseeing. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did anybody visit you there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you visit anyone? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. What hotel did you stay in? + +Mrs. OSWALD. We didn't stop at a hotel. We stopped at a place where +they rent apartments. The address was given to us in the American +Embassy. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what you paid in the way of rent? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, Lee paid it. I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did your husband spend his time when he was aboard the +ship? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I was somewhat upset because he was a little ashamed to +walk around with me, because I wasn't dressed as well as the other +girls. Basically, I stayed in my cabin while Lee went to the movies and +they have different games there. I don't know what he did there. + +Mr. RANKIN. In Exhibit 25, the notations on the Holland American Line +stationery, your husband apparently made some political observations. +Did he discuss these with you while he was on the trip? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, it is time for a recess. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We will take a recess now. + +(Brief recess.) + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. + +We will continue. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can you tell us what your husband was reading +in the Soviet Union after you were married, that you recall? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He read the Daily Worker newspaper in the English language. + +Mr. RANKIN. Anything else? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me something like Marxism, Leninism, also in +the English language. He did not have any choice of English books for +reading purposes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was he reading anything in Russian at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, newspapers, and nothing else. + +Mr. RANKIN. No library books? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. It was very hard for him. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he go to any schools while he was in the Soviet Union +that you know of? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 26 and ask you if you can tell us what +that is. + +Mrs. OSWALD. The title of this document is shown here, "Information for +those who are departing for abroad. Personal data--name, last name, +date of birth, place of birth, height, color of eyes and hair, married +or not, and purpose of the trip." + +Mr. RANKIN. What does it say about the purpose of the trip--do you +recall? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Private exit. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what members of your family are referred to +there under that question? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It shows here "none." I think before this was filled +out--this was before June's birth. + +Mr. RANKIN. That doesn't refer then to members of your family, like +your uncles or aunts, or anything like that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence Exhibit 26. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 26, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, I hand you Exhibit 27 and ask you if you can recall +what that is. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is a questionnaire which has to be filled out prior +to departure for abroad. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 27. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 27, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what relatives you referred to when they +asked for close relatives? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It must be shown there. I don't remember. Probably my +uncle. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can you tell us the handwriting on this +exhibit, No. 27? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is my handwriting. + +Mr. RANKIN. You say it is all your handwriting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, can you tell us what Exhibit 28 is? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is the same thing. This was a draft. + +Mr. RANKIN. You mean a rough draft? + +Mrs. OSWALD. A rough draft of the same thing. + +Mr. RANKIN. And the other one is the final? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. Perhaps there were several drafts, I don't +know whether this is from the Embassy or from some other source. These +are drafts, because the original would have had to have my photograph. +Lee and I were playing. + +Mr. RANKIN. Then, Mrs. Oswald, you think both Exhibit 27 and 28 are +drafts, since neither one has your photograph on them? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We were playing dominoes, and this is the score. + +Mr. RANKIN. I ask that Exhibit 28 be received in evidence, Mr. Chairman. + +The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 28, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 29 and ask you if you can tell us what +that is? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is a residence permit, passport--a passport for +abroad. This is a foreign passport for Russians who go abroad. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand that you had six months in which to +leave under that passport? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This all has to be filled out before you are allowed +to go abroad. + +Mr. RANKIN. Whose handwriting is in Exhibit 29? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know who wrote that. It is not I. Officials who +issue the passport. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 29. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 29, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason why the passport was made valid +until January 11, 1964? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Because the passport which I turned in and for which I +received this one in exchange was valid until 1964. + +Mr. RANKIN. You had a passport prior to this one, then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Had you obtained that before you were married? + +Mrs. OSWALD. All citizens of the U.S.S.R. 16 and over must have a +passport. It would be good if everyone had a passport here. It would +help the Government more. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, you have told us considerably about your +husband's unhappiness with the United States and his idea that things +would be much better in Cuba, if he could get there. Do you recall that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what he said about what he didn't like about +the United States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The problem of unemployment. + +Mr. RANKIN. Anything else? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I already said what he didn't like--that it was hard to +get an education, that medical care is very expensive. About his +political dissatisfaction, he didn't speak to me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say anything against the leaders of the +government here? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, that is all we have now except the physical +exhibits, and I think we could do that at 2 o'clock. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, we are going to recess now until 2 o'clock. +You must be quite tired by now. And this afternoon we are going to +introduce some of the physical objects that are essential to make up +our record. + +When we finish with those, I think your testimony will be completed. + +And I think we should finish today. + +You won't be unhappy about that, will you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. Thank you. + +The CHAIRMAN. 2 o'clock this afternoon. + +(Whereupon, at 11:35 a.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +Afternoon Session + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED + + +The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m. + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may +continue. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I understand that Mrs. Oswald has examined a +considerable volume of correspondence during the recess. In order to be +helpful, she has identified it, and she is able to tell, through her +counsel, by a number for each exhibit, who the letter was to or from as +the case may be. + +And, after I offer the exhibits, or as part of the offer, I will ask +Mr. Thorne if he will tell the description of the recipient and the +writer of the letter in the various cases. These exhibits are Exhibits +30 through 65, inclusive. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 30 is a telegram from a former fiance's mother. + +Exhibit No. 31 is a letter from her friend who studied with her, by the +name of Ella Soboleva. + +Exhibit No. 32 is a letter from the Ziger family, who are friends. + +Exhibit No. 33 is another letter from Alexander Ziger. A friend of the +family's. + +Exhibit No. 34 is a letter concerning departure to the United States +by Marina and her husband. She doesn't know who sent the letter or who +received it. It is merely some material that she has. + +Exhibit No. 35 is an envelope from a friend which contained a letter +which is not shown. + +Exhibit No. 36 is a letter from a former fiance's mother, the same one +that sent the telegram, and Exhibit No. 30. + +Exhibit No. 37 is a letter from Marina to Lee while she was in the +hospital, during the birth of June Lee. + +Exhibit No. 38 is a letter from Olga Dmovskaya, a friend. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you say fiance, do you mean she was engaged to someone +else? + +Mr. THORNE. This is what I understand--prior to her relationship to Lee. + +Exhibit No. 39 is another letter from Ella Soboleva. + +Exhibit No. 40 is a letter from Lee Harvey to Marina while she was in +the hospital with June Lee, during the birth of the baby. + +Exhibit No. 41 is a letter from her Aunt Valya. + +Exhibit No. 42 is a letter from their friend Pavel. + +Exhibit No. 43 is the start of a letter by Marina which was never +finished. + +Exhibit No. 44 is the start of a letter by Marina which was never +finished. + +Exhibit No. 45 is a letter from Olga Dmovskaya, the same person who +sent a letter in Exhibit No. 38. + +Exhibit No. 46 is a letter--is another letter from Aunt Valya. + +Exhibit No. 47 is a letter from a friend by the name of Tolya. + +Exhibit No. 48 is an address of one of Marina's friends. + +Exhibit No. 49 is Marina's draft of a letter to the consulate. + +May I see Exhibit 49? I am trying to clear up a point. + +Mr. DULLES. What is the date of that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is not a letter. That is an autobiography. + +Mr. THORNE. Yes, that is correct. It is the draft of an autobiography +for the Russian Consulate. + +Exhibit No. 50 is a letter from a friend Erick Titovetz. + +Exhibit No. 51 is another letter from Aunt Valya. + +Exhibit No. 52 is a letter received by Marina while she was in the +hospital with June Lee. + +Exhibit No. 53 is Lee Harvey Oswald's writing. + +Exhibit No. 54 is a letter from a friend, Laliya. + +Exhibit No. 55 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to Marina while she +was in Kharkov. + +Exhibit No. 56 is the same. + +Exhibit No. 57 is a letter from Aunt Valya. + +Exhibit No. 58 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to Marina while she +was in the hospital with June Lee. + +Exhibit No. 59 is the same. + +Exhibit No. 60 is the same. + +Exhibit No. 61 is the same. + +Exhibit No. 62 is a letter from Anna Meller, who lives in Dallas, to +Marina. + +Exhibit No. 63 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to Marina while she +was in the hospital, giving birth to June Lee. + +Exhibit No. 64 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald--is a letter to Lee +from Erick Titovetz. + +Exhibit No. 65 is the second page of Exhibit No. 62. That completes the +exhibits. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 30 through 65, inclusive. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted and take the appropriate numbers. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 30 +through 65, inclusive, and received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, you remember I asked you about the diary that +your husband kept. You said that he completed it in Russia before he +came to this country, do you remember that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not the entries that he made in that +diary were made each day as the events occurred? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, not each day. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were they noted shortly after the time they occurred? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Not all events. What happened in Moscow I don't think that +Lee wrote that in Moscow. + +Mr. RANKIN. What about the entries concerning what happened in Minsk? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He wrote this while he was working. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you think those entries were made close to the time +that the events occurred? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. As I understand you, you think that the entries concerning +the time he was in Moscow before he went to Minsk were entered some +time while he was in Minsk, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think so, but I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why your husband was sent to Minsk to work and +live after he came to the Soviet Union, instead of some other city? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He was sent there because this is a young and developing +city where there are many industrial enterprises which needed +personnel. It is an old, a very old city. But after the war, it +had been almost completely built anew, because everything has been +destroyed. It was easier in the sense of living space in Minsk--it was +easier to secure living space. Many immigrants are sent to Minsk. There +are many immigrants there now. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were there many Americans there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Americans? No. But from South America, from Argentina, we +knew many. Many Argentinians live there--comparatively many. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband say much about the time he was in Moscow +before he went to Minsk and what he did there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't tell me particularly much about it, but he said +that he walked in Moscow a great deal, that he had visited museums, +that he liked Moscow better than Minsk, and that he would have liked to +live in Moscow. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about having been on the radio or +television at Moscow? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he was on the radio. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about any ceremonies for him when +he asked for Soviet citizenship? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. When he was not granted Soviet citizenship, did he say +anything about the Soviet Government or his reaction towards their +failure to give him citizenship? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When I read the diary, I concluded from the diary that Lee +wanted to become a citizen of the Soviet Union and that he had been +refused, but after we were married we talked on that subject and he +said it was good that he had refused to accept citizenship. Therefore, +I had always thought that Lee had been offered citizenship--but that he +didn't want it. + +Mr. RANKIN. What diary are you referring to that you read? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The diary about which we talked here previously--in the +preceding session. + +Mr. RANKIN. The one that was completed in Russia that you referred to? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And when did you first read that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I had never read it, because I didn't understand English. +But when I was questioned by the FBI, they read me excerpts from that +diary. + +Mr. RANKIN. And that was after the assassination? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you and Lee Oswald decided to get married, was there a +period of time you had to wait before it could be official? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you file an application and then have a period to wait? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. How long was that period of waiting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Ten days. + +Mr. RANKIN. After it was known in Minsk that you were to marry this +American, did any officials come to you and talk to you about the +marriage? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we have Exhibits 66 through 91 that we are +going to ask your counsel to show to you, and after you have looked at +them and are satisfied that you can identify them, then we will ask you +to comment on them. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Lee when I was in the hospital. + +Mr. RANKIN. What exhibit is that? + +Mr. THORNE. These are all part of Exhibit 66. They are various +miscellaneous pieces of writing involved in this particular exhibit. + +Mrs. OSWALD. It was not in June that I was in the hospital. He didn't +know that I was in the hospital. + +Mr. RANKIN. By "he" do you mean your husband Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And when did he not know that you were in the hospital? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Because I was going to work when I began to feel ill, and +I was taken to the hospital. + +Mr. RANKIN. And what time was that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In the morning, about 10 a.m. + +Mr. RANKIN. I mean about what day or month or year? + +Mrs. OSWALD. September 1961. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is that before you went to Kharkov? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And we have already discussed, or I have asked you about +that time you were in the hospital. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I was there twice. + +Mr. RANKIN. By twice, you mean this time you have described before you +went to Kharkov and the other time when you had the baby? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter from Inesse Yakhliel. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 67? + +Mr. THORNE. No, sir, these are all part of Exhibit 66. + +Mr. DULLES. I wonder if these should not be marked in some way, because +you won't be able to find out what they are in the future--A, B, C, D, +or something of this kind. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Redlich, will you mark those as 66-A, B, C, and D, or +however they run? + +Mr. Thorne, when you say the first one marked "A", will you make it +clear what that is? + +Mr. THORNE. The exhibit marked "A"--let me hasten to point out that +all of these pieces of paper have a mark "159R". We are denoting +individually these papers by starting with A, B, C, and so on. + +"A" represents the first piece of paper that was identified earlier in +this testimony by Mrs. Oswald, referring again specifically to Exhibit +66, which is composed of many such pieces of paper. + +Exhibit B was the second piece of paper that was identified by Mrs. +Oswald. + +I believe this is the third. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter from Inessa Yakhliel. + +Mr. THORNE. This will be identified as C. + +Mrs. OSWALD. The envelope of a letter that Lee wrote me, to Kharkov. + +Mr. THORNE. That is identified as Exhibit D. + +Mrs. OSWALD. From Inessa Yakhliel. + +Mr. THORNE. This is identified as Exhibit E. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Inessa Yakhliel. + +Mr. THORNE. This is identified as Exhibit F. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Lee. + +Mr. THORNE. Identified as Exhibit G. + +Mrs. OSWALD. From my Aunt Luba. + +Mr. THORNE. This is identified as Exhibit H. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter from Lee. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit I. + +Now, so there is no confusion, let's state again that these are +sub-exhibits, letters, and marked 159, from A through I, all part of +Exhibit 66. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I would like to obtain these letters, to preserve them. I +don't mean now. + +The CHAIRMAN. She may see and have copies of any of the letters she +desires connected with her testimony. + +Mr. THORNE. This is Exhibit 67. + +Mrs. OSWALD. A photograph of Galiya Khontooleva. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 68. Exhibit 68 is two postcards, and they probably +need to be identified as A and B. + +Let's identify A. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is a letter from Lee from New Orleans to Irving--to +the home of Mrs. Paine. + +And this is a letter from the mother, Lee's mother. + +Mr. THORNE. This will be identified as Exhibit 68-B. Exhibit 69 is +composed of two postcards. Exhibit 69-A---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Lee, from New Orleans, addressed to me, when +I lived with Ruth Paine. + +Mr. THORNE. And Exhibit 69-B? + +Mrs. OSWALD. A letter from a girl friend from Russia, Ludmila Larionova. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 70, a postcard. + +Mrs. OSWALD. From my grandmother, from the mother of my stepfather. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 71. Two envelopes. 71-A---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. From Pavel Golovachev, addressed to the address of Ruth +Paine. And this is an envelope from Ruth Paine. + +Mr. THORNE. That is Exhibit B. + +Mrs. OSWALD. A letter to me. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 72 is a writing. In Russian. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is a reply to Lee's letter about the fact that he +wanted to study at the University of Peoples Friendship, and he was +refused. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 73 contains two pieces of paper. 73-A is identified +as---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is from the time that June was a little baby, a +certificate of the fact that she was vaccinated for smallpox. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit B? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is Anna Meller's address and telephone number. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 74? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is Lee's library card of the State Library. I think +in Moscow--the State Library. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 75 contains a writing and an envelope. + +Mrs. OSWALD. A letter from Galiya Khontooleva, and an envelope. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 76 contains three pages of writing, together with +an envelope. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This was when Lee and I visited his brother in a city in +Alabama, he is studying to be a clergyman. There we met a young man who +was studying Russian, and he wrote me this letter. + +These are all his letters. + +Mr. THORNE. This is three pages of one letter together with the +envelope. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 77 contains an envelope and two written pages--two +separate pages of writing. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Galiya Khontooleva, and the envelope. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 78 contains an envelope and two handwritten pages +of writing. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter from Ruth Paine to New Orleans. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 79 contains an envelope and one page of writing. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter from Pavel Golovachev, from Minsk. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 80, two handwritten pages. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I was forced by the FBI to write an account of how much +money I had received through them. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 81 contains one page of writing. + +Mrs. OSWALD. The same. + +Mr. THORNE. By the same, you mean what? + +Mrs. OSWALD. A receipt for the receipt of money through the FBI. + +Mr. THORNE. Are these donations? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 82 contains a page in handwriting. + +Mrs. OSWALD. A letter from Ruth. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 83 is a photograph. + +Mrs. OSWALD. The son of Ludmila Larionova. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 84 contains an envelope. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Simply an envelope. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 85 contains an envelope. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee wrote to me in Kharkov. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 86 contains an envelope. + +Mrs. OSWALD. From Titovetz, a letter from the Soviet Union. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 87 contains an envelope. + +Mrs. OSWALD. From Pavel Golovachev. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 88 contains an envelope and one page of writing. + +Mrs. OSWALD. A letter from Ella Soboleva. + +Mr. THORNE. And the letter arrived in the envelope? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 89 contains one sheet of writing. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Also from Soboleva. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 90. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think from Ruth. + +Mr. THORNE. This contains several pages--several sheets--three sheets +which seem to be one continuous letter. + +Mrs. OSWALD. A letter from Ruth Paine. + +Mr. THORNE. A three-page letter. Exhibit No. 91 contains an envelope. + +Mrs. OSWALD. From Erick Titovetz. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 66 through 91, inclusive. + +The CHAIRMAN. You have looked over all these, have you, Mr. Thorne, and +your client has identified them? + +Mr. THORNE. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 66 +through 91, inclusive, and received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we will show you photostatic copies of various +writings of your husband. As you look at them, would you tell us what +each one is, insofar as you recognize them, please? + +Mr. THORNE. This is Exhibit 92, which is a writing, a photocopy of a +writing. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize that exhibit, Mrs. Oswald? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting. But I have never seen this. More +correctly, I have seen it, but I have never read it. + +Mr. RANKIN. So you don't know what it purports to be, I take it. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is, you do not? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. But you do recognize his handwriting throughout? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. THORNE. May I point out to the Commission, please, this is in +English. This is handwritten in English and it is typewritten in +English. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 92. + +The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 92, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. I should like to inform the Commission that Exhibit 92 +purports to be the book that Lee Oswald wrote about conditions in the +Soviet Union. + +The CHAIRMAN. The one that was dictated to the stenographer? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes, that is right. + +Mr. REDLICH. He had had written notes, and she transcribed them. + +Mr. THORNE. The next exhibit is Exhibit No. 93, many pages, +handwritten, in English. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, will you tell us what that is, if you know. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether it is in the handwriting of your +husband? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this is Lee's handwriting. These are all his papers. +I don't know about them. Everything is in English. I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 93. + +The CHAIRMAN. Exhibit 93 may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 93, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. I should like to advise the Commission that this Exhibit +93 purports to be a résumé of his Marine Corps experience, and some +additional minor notes. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 94 is photocopies of many pages of handwriting, +which is in English. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is. It is Lee's handwriting. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 94. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 94, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. DULLES. Do we know what that is? + +Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 94 consists of handwritten pages on which the book +about Russia, Exhibit 92, was typewritten. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 95 is a photocopy of many pages of typewriting, +typewritten words, which are in English. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I also don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will ask you, on Exhibit 95, can you +identify the handwriting on that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It is Lee's handwriting. + +Mr. RANKIN. And did you ever see the pages of that Exhibit 95 as a part +of his papers and records? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. Perhaps I saw them, but I don't remember them. + +Mr. RANKIN. But you know it is his handwriting, where the handwriting +appears? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 95. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 95, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 96 is a photocopy of two pages that are handwritten +and in English. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I also don't know what that is. For me, that is a dark +forest, a heap of papers. + +Mr. RANKIN. With regard to Exhibit 95 that has been received in +evidence, I should like to inform the Commission that that is also +material concerning the book, regarding conditions in Russia. + +Mrs. Oswald, will you tell us with regard to Exhibit 96--do you +recognize the handwriting on those pages? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is all Lee's handwriting. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 96. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 96, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 96 purports to be notes for a speech or article, on +"The New Era." + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 97 is a photocopy of several pages, both printed +and in writing, handwriting. + +Mrs. OSWALD. It is amazing that Lee had written so well. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize the handwriting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I do. + +Mr. THORNE. This is also in English. + +Mrs. Oswald, you state he had written so well. By that you mean what? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Neatly. And legibly. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 97. + +The CHAIRMAN. Exhibit 97 may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 97, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 98 is three photocopy pages of handwriting in +English. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is. + +Mr. THORNE. Do you recognize the handwriting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's handwriting. + +Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 97 appears to be a critique on the Communist Party +in the United States by Lee Oswald. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 98. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 98, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 98 purports to be notes for a speech. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 99 is one photocopy page of handwriting in English. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is. + +Mr. THORNE. Is this Lee's handwriting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 99. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 99, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 100 purports to be four pages, photocopy pages, +of handwriting, in English. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting. But what it is, I don't know. I am +sorry, but I don't know what it is. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 100. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 100, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. I wish to inform the Commission that this purports to be +answers to questionnaires, and shows two formats, one showing that he +is loyal to the country and another that he is not so loyal. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 101 is a photocopy of one page which is printed and +handwritten in English. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting. But what it is, I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 101. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 101, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. This purports to be a portion of the diary and relates to +his meeting at the Embassy on October 31, 1959. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 102 is photocopies of two pages, handwritten, in +English. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting. I don't know what it is. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 102. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 102, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. I wish to call the Commission's attention to the fact that +Exhibit 102 purports to be a draft of memoranda, at least, for a speech. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 103 is two pages, two photocopy pages, of +handwriting, in English. + +Mrs. OSWALD. From the address I see that it is a letter--it is Lee's +letter, but to whom, I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 103. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted under that number. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 103, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. I wish to call the attention of the Commission to the +fact that Exhibit 103 is a purported draft of the letter that Lee +Oswald sent to the Embassy, the Soviet Embassy, which you will recall +referred to the fact that his wife was asked by the FBI to defect--had +such language in the latter part of it. This draft shows that in this +earlier draft he used different language, and decided upon the language +that he finally sent in the exhibit that is in the record earlier. The +comparison is most illuminating. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 104 is photocopy pages of a small notebook. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is my notebook, various addresses--when I was at the +rest home, I simply noted down the addresses of some acquaintances. + +Mr. DULLES. Is this in Russia, or the United States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In Russia. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 104. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 104, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 105 is a notebook---- + +Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 104 purports to be a small notebook of Mrs. Oswald. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 105 is the original of a notebook containing +various writings in English and in Russian. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is when Lee was getting ready to go to Russia, and he +made a list of the things that he wanted to buy and take with him. + +Further, I don't know what he had written in there. + +Mr. DULLES. Was this the time he went or the time he didn't go? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When he didn't--when he intended to. + +Mr. RANKIN. In Exhibit 105, Mrs. Oswald, I will ask you if you noted +that your husband had listed in that "Gun and case, Price 24 REC. 17." + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is. Unfortunately, I cannot help. I +don't know what this means. + +Mr. RANKIN. But you do observe the item in the list in that booklet, do +you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Now I see it. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 105. + +The CHAIRMAN. That will be received. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 105, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. With regard to Exhibit 102, I should like to inform the +Commission that as a part of this transcribed record, as soon as we can +complete it, we will have photostatic copies of these various exhibits +for you, along with photographs of the physical material. But I think +you will want to examine some of it very closely. + +I call your particular attention to this draft of a proposed speech. +One of the items, No. 1, states, "Americans are apt to scoff at the +idea that a military coup in the U.S. as so often happens in Latin +American countries, could ever replace our government. But that is an +idea that has grounds for consideration. Which military organization +has the potentialities of exciting such action? Is it the Army? With +its many conscripts, its unwieldy size, its score of bases scattered +across the world? The case of General Walker shows that the Army at +least is not fertile enough ground for a far-right regime to go a very +long way, for the size, reasons of size, and disposition." + +Then there is an insert I have difficulty in reading. + +"Which service, then, can qualify to launch a coup in the U.S.A.? Small +size, a permanent hard core of officers and few bases as necessary. +Only one outfit fits that description, and the U.S. Marine Corps is a +rightwing-infiltrated organization of dire potential consequences to +the freedom of the United States. I agree with former President Truman +when he said that 'The Marine Corps should be abolished.'" + +That indicates some of his thinking. + +The CHAIRMAN. We will just take a short break. + +(Brief recess.) + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 106 for identification is a notebook. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is my book, some poems by ---- + +Mr. THORNE. It contains handwriting in Russian. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to write that, Mrs. Oswald? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I simply liked these verses. I did not have a book of +poems. And I made a copy. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 106. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 106, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 107 contains a small piece of cardboard with some +writing in Russian on it. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is Lee's pass from the factory. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 107. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 107, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 108 is an original one sheet of paper, with +handwriting in ink, in Russian, on one page. + +Mrs. OSWALD. These are the lyrics of a popular song. + +Mr. RANKIN. A Russian popular song? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This is Armenian--an Armenian popular song. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 108. + +The CHAIRMAN. It is admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 108, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 109 is one sheet with handwriting in ink on both +sides, an original. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This was simply my recollection of some song lyrics and +the names of some songs that people had asked me. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer Exhibit 109. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 109, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 110 is a yellow legal sized sheet with handwriting +in Russian which seems to be interpreted in English below it, together +with a little stamp. I can explain the stamp. It says FBI Laboratory. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is when George Bouhe was giving me lessons. I +translated from Russian into English--not very successfully--my first +lessons. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer Exhibit 110. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 110, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. When was it that George Bouhe was teaching you English and +you wrote this out? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This was in July 1962. I don't remember when I arrived--in +'62 or '61. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is the handwriting in Exhibit 110 in the Russian as well as +the English in your handwriting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. The Russian is written by Bouhe, and the English is +written by me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you make the translation from the Russian into the +English by yourself? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I had to study English. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a dictionary to work with? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. So you were taking a Russian-English dictionary and trying +to convert the Russian words that he wrote out into English, is that +right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 111 is a book written in Russian, a pocket book. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is my book. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you notice some of the letters are cut out of that book, +Exhibit 111? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Letters? + +I see that for the first time. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who did that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Probably Lee was working, but I never saw that. I don't +know what he did that for. + +Mr. RANKIN. You never saw him while he was working with that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I would have shown him if I had seen him doing that to +my book. + +Mr. RANKIN. You know sometimes messages are made up by cutting out +letters that way and putting them together to make words. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I read about it. + +Mr. RANKIN. You have never seen him do that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer Exhibit 111. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 111, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 112 is an apparent application--an applicant's +driving record. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen this. + +Mr. THORNE. It is in English. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is not your driving record, then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether it was your husband's? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. + +Mr. THORNE. May I clarify the exhibit? It is an application for a Texas +driver's license. Standard form application. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 112. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 112, and +received in evidence.) + +Mrs. OSWALD. It is quite possible that Lee prepared that, because Ruth +Paine insisted on Lee's obtaining a license. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you hear her insist? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. She said it would be good to have. + +Mr. RANKIN. And when was that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. October or November. + +Mr. RANKIN. 1962? + +Mrs. OSWALD. '63. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 113 is a driver's handbook published by the State +of Texas. + +Mrs. OSWALD. We had this book for quite some time. George Bouhe had +given that to Lee if he at some time would try to learn how to drive. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 113. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 113, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Was your husband able to drive a car? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I think that he knew how. Ruth taught him how. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a driver's license that you know of? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +This is a Russian camera of Lee's--binoculars. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 114 is a leather case containing a pair of +binoculars. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember having seen those binoculars, known as +Exhibit 114, before? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We had binoculars in Russia because we liked to look +through them at a park. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your husband used them in connection +with the Walker incident? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. He never said anything about that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 114. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 114, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 115 is a box containing a stamping kit. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's. When he was busy with his Cuba, he used it. + +Mr. RANKIN. You mean when he was working on the Fair Play for Cuba, he +used this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 115. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 115, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. How did he use that kit in Exhibit 115 in connection with +his Fair Play for Cuba campaign? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He had leaflets for which he assembled letters and printed +his address. + +Mr. RANKIN. And he used this kit largely to stamp the address on the +letters? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Not letters, but leaflets. + +Mr. RANKIN. He stamped the address on the leaflets? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Handbills, rather. + +Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether he stamped his name on the handbills, +too? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. What name did he stamp on them? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he use the name Hidell on those, too? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. Perhaps. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 116 is a Spanish to English and English to Spanish +dictionary. + +Mr. RANKIN. Have you seen that before? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee came from Mexico City I think he had this. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 116. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be received. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 116, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 117 is one sheet of paper with, some penciled +markings on it. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is. I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize any of the writing on that exhibit? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 117. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 117, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 118 is a clipping from a newspaper. There are some +notations on it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall seeing that clipping, Exhibit 118, before? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize any of the handwriting on it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. As far as it is visible, it is similar to Lee's +handwriting. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer Exhibit 118. The CHAIRMAN. 118 may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 118, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. I call attention to the members of the Commission that +Exhibit 118 has a reference to the President, with regard to the +income tax, and the position of the Administration as being favorable +to business rather than to the small taxpayer in the approach to the +income tax. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 119 contains a key with a chain. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what this is a key to. + +Mr. RANKIN. It appears to be a key to a padlock. Do you recognize it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I can see that it is a key to a padlock, but I have never +used such a key. + +Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever seen your husband use such a key? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It is hard to remember what key he used. I know he had a +key. + +(The article referred to was marked as Commission Exhibit No. 119 for +identification.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 120 purports to be a telescope--15 power telescope. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen such a telescope. + +Mr. RANKIN. You never saw it as a part of your husband's things? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +(The article referred to was marked for identification as Exhibit No. +120.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 121 is a Russell Stover candy box filled with +miscellaneous assortment--medicines of all kinds. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can you help us in regard to that Exhibit 121? +Are those your medicines or are those your husband's? + +Mrs. OSWALD. These are all my medications. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 121 and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 122 is a cardboard box containing an assortment of +items. + +Mrs. OSWALD. These are all his things. I think he used this to clean +the rifle. + +Mr. RANKIN. You are showing us pipe cleaners that you say your husband +used to clean the rifle, as you remember it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. How often did he clean it, do you remember? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Not too often. I have already told you. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 122. + +The CHAIRMAN. It will be received. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 122, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 123 contains seven small one ounce dark brown +bottles. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's brother is a pharmacist. He gave this to us. + +Mr. THORNE. As well as the apparent boxes that they came in. + +Mr. RANKIN. Which brother is a pharmacist? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Murret. + +Mr. RANKIN. You mean his cousin? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. In the Russian the word cousin is second brother. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 123. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be received. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 123, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 124 is a hunting knife in a sheath, approximately a +4- or 5-inch blade. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen this knife. + +It is a new knife. And that telescope is also new. + +(The article referred to was marked as Commission Exhibit No. 124 for +identification.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 125 is a file cabinet for presumably three by five +or five by seven inch cards. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee kept his printing things in that, pencils. + +Mr. RANKIN. The things that he printed his Fair Play for Cuba leaflets +on? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Pencils and materials that he used in connection with that +matter? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he have any index cards in that metal case? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he had some. + +Mr. RANKIN. You don't know what happened to them? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what was on those index cards? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. A list of any people that you know of? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were those leaflets about Fair Play for Cuba printed? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And then did he stamp something on them after he had them +printed? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He would print his name and address on them. + +Mr. RANKIN. I will offer in evidence Exhibit 125. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 125, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. You don't know what happened to the cards that were in that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 126 is a small hand overnight bag, canvas zipper +bag. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's handbag, and he arrived with it from Mexico +City. + +Mr. RANKIN. It is one of the bags that you described when you were +telling about his bringing one back from Mexico City? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He only had this one. + +Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 126 was the only bag that he brought back? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 126. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 126, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 127 is a suitcase. + +Mrs. OSWALD. A Russian suitcase. + +Mr. RANKIN. You have seen that before, have you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he took Exhibit 127 to Mexico? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. You don't know, or you don't think he did? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I know that he did not take it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when he used Exhibit 127? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think that he would have used it. + +Was this taken in Lee's apartment? + +Mr. RANKIN. We cannot tell you that, Mrs. Oswald. We don't know which +place it was taken from. + +You have seen it amongst his things, though, have you not? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I think these things were in Ruth Paine's garage. + +Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether it is his or Mrs. Paine's? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is my suitcase. + +Mr. RANKIN. And did you use it to come from the Soviet Union? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. THORNE. This is not Lee's suitcase, then--this is your personal +suitcase? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Ours, or mine. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 127. + +The CHAIRMAN. Do you need that? That is hers. She may want it. Do you +think we need it? + +Very well. It may be admitted. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 127, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 128 is a Humble Oil and Refining Company courtesy +map of the Dallas-Fort Worth area. + +Mr. RANKIN. I call your attention, Mrs. Oswald, to the markings in ink, +in the area where the assassination took place. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This map Lee acquired after returning to Irving. Before +that, he had another map. + +That doesn't tell me anything. I did not use this map. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see your husband use it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I think that this was in his apartment, where he +lived. Perhaps he used it there. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see him put those markings on it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I have never seen him use this specific map. Possibly +he marked this place, not because of what happened there, but because +this was the place where he worked, I don't know. He had a habit to +note down the addresses of all acquaintances where he worked. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell whether the writing on the side of the map +there is in your husband's handwriting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It doesn't look like his handwriting. + +(The document referred to was marked for identification as Commission +Exhibit No. 128.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 129 purports to be some type of an official +document in Russian. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is my birth certificate. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why it was issued at that date, rather than +presumably the one that was issued when you were born? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Because mine was lost somewhere, and it was reissued. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have to go there to get it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, simply write a letter. + +Mr. RANKIN. And they mailed it to you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer that exhibit in evidence. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 129, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 130 seems to be an original instrument in Russian. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is a copy of a birth certificate which a notary +issues. + +Mr. THORNE. Whose certificate? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Mine. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 130. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 130, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 131 is a one-sheet document in Russian. + +Mrs. OSWALD. The same thing. + +Mr. RANKIN. Why did you have these other copies? + +Mrs. OSWALD. These documents were needed for regularizing all the +documents in connection with the trip abroad. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why the date was rewritten from July 14 to July +19 on them? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In which? + +Mr. RANKIN. In the original. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't see that. + +It says July 17, 1941. The certificate is issued July 19, 1961. + +Mr. KRIMER. The transcript shows 17th of July 1941. + +May I explain it, sir? + +Mr. RANKIN. You explain it, Mr. Krimer, and then ask her if you are +explaining it correctly. + +Mr. KRIMER. I have explained it correctly, and she says it is correct. + +This states she was born on July 17, but that an entry was made in the +register about that on August 14, 1961. This accounts for the change in +the digit. And this was issued on July 19, 1941. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer that in evidence. + +The CHAIRMAN. That will be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 131, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. 132 is a two-sheet, eight-page letter with an envelope. +This is written in Russian. + +Mrs. OSWALD. The envelope is from Sobolev, and the letter is from +Golovachev. I simply kept them together. + +Mr. RANKIN. There is a reference in the last full paragraph of that +letter, Mrs. Oswald, where it said, "By the way, Marina, try to explain +to Paul that the basic idea of Pagodzin's play 'A man with a rifle' is +contained in words"--and then goes on. Do you know what was meant by +that? + +It says "Now we do not have to fear a man with a rifle." Who is Paul? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is only that the word "rifle" scares you, but it +is quite harmless. This is Peter Gregory, Paul. He is also studying +Russian. And he had to make a report at the institute about Pagodzin's +play "Man with a Rifle". This play is about the revolution in Russia, +and there is a film. I helped him with it. + +Mr. RANKIN. You are satisfied that has nothing to do with the +assassination? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 132. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 132, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 133 contains two photographs. + +These are pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald with a rifle and pistol. + +Mrs. OSWALD. For me at first they appeared to be one and the same, at +first glance. But they are different poses. + +Mr. RANKIN. You took both of those pictures, did you, in Exhibit 133? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And are those the pictures you took when you were out +hanging up diapers, and your husband asked you to take the pictures of +him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. With the pistol and the rifle? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 133. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 133, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether these pictures in Exhibit 133 were +taken before or after the Walker incident? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Before. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 134 is an enlargement of one of these +pictures--what purports to be an enlargement. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this is an enlargement of that photograph. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, in Exhibit 133, in one of the pictures your +husband has a newspaper, it appears. + +Mr. DULLES. I think in both of them. + +Mr. RANKIN. I want to correct that. + +In both he appears to have a newspaper. In one of them he has the +newspaper in the right hand and in the other in the left hand. Do you +know what newspaper that is? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It says there "Militant." But I don't know what kind of a +paper that is--whether it is Communist, anti-Communist. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how much earlier than the Walker incident you +took these photographs? + +Mrs. OSWALD. About two weeks. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was the enlargement of one of those pictures, Exhibit 134, +made by you, or by someone else? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know who made the enlargement. + +Mr. RANKIN. Have you seen Exhibit 134, the enlargement, before this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I have been shown an enlargement, but I don't know +whether this is the one I have been shown. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who showed that to you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Apart from Mr. Gopadze, somebody else showed me an +enlargement. + +Mr. RANKIN. Does this appear to be like the enlargement that you saw? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I think it was specially enlarged for the +investigation. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit No. 134. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 134, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 136 purports to be a clipping from a newspaper. +It is a clipping of an advertisement, a mail coupon. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 135. + +The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 135, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. I call the Commission's attention to the fact that this is +the coupon under which it appears the rifle was ordered, showing an +enclosed $10 notation--"Check for $29.95, A. G. Hidell, age 28, post +office box 2915, Dallas, Texas." + +And it is marked, "One--quantity. Point 38 ST. W. 2 inch barrel, +29.95," and underlined is 29.95, and an arrow at that point. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 136 is a camera contained within a leather case. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is a Russian camera. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is that the camera you used to take the pictures you have +referred to? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember exactly whether it was an American camera +or this. + +Mr. RANKIN. But this was one of your cameras, or your husband's cameras? + +Mrs. OSWALD. My husband's camera. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 136. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 136, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 137 is a camera in a leather case. + +Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever seen that camera before? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. DULLES. Is that a Russian camera? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 137 for +identification.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 138 is a flash attachment for some type of camera. +It is an Ansco flash attachment. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen it. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 138 for +identification.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what happened to the American camera that you +referred to? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was this Ansco flash equipment an attachment for that +camera? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen it. It seems to me that it is new. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 139. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is the fateful rifle of Lee Oswald. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is that the scope that it had on it, as far as you know? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 139. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 139, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 140 apparently is a blanket. + +Mr. RANKIN. Have you seen that before, Mrs. Oswald? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is still from Russia. June loved to play with that +blanket. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was that the blanket that your husband used to cover up the +rifle? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We didn't use this blanket as a cover. He used it for +the rifle. + +Mr. RANKIN. And it was the blanket that you saw and thought was +covering the rifle in the garage at the Paine's, is it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he use it as a cover for the rifle at other places +where you lived? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 140. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 140, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that June played with this blanket, Exhibit 140? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I would put that on the floor to make it softer--on a +balcony, for example, when June was playing on it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is that in this country or in Russia? + +Mrs. OSWALD. She didn't crawl yet in Russia. + +Mr. RANKIN. What balcony was that--what house? + +Mrs. OSWALD. On Neely Street, in Dallas. + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 141 is an envelope that contains a bullet. + +Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever seen bullets or shells like that that your +husband had? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think Lee's were smaller. + +Mr. RANKIN. If that was the size for his gun, would that cause you to +think it was the same? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Probably. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where did you see his? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In New Orleans, and on Neely Street. + +Mr. RANKIN. In the box, or laying loose some place? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In a box. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 141. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 141, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 142 is some kraft paper, brown wrapping paper. + +Mrs. OSWALD. It wasn't brown before. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see that before? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The FBI questioned me about this paper, but I don't +know--I have never seen it. + +Mr. RANKIN. At one time it was kraft color, before they treated it to +get fingerprints. + +Did you ever see anything like that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Everybody sees such paper. But I didn't see that with Lee. + +Mr. RANKIN. You have never seen anything like that around the house, +then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. We have wrapping paper around the house. + +Mr. RANKIN. That Exhibit 142 is more than just wrapping paper. It was +apparently made up into a sack or bag. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't see it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see him make up a bag or sack or anything like +that, to hold a rifle? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 142, for +identification.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 143 is a pistol. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee Oswald's. + +Mr. RANKIN. You recognize that as a pistol of your husband? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 143. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 143, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 144 is a leather pistol holster. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is a holster for Lee's pistol. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is Exhibit 144 the same holster that is in those pictures +that you took? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And the pistol is the same pistol as in those pictures? + +Mrs. OSWALD. As much as I can tell. + +Mr. RANKIN. At least they appear to be, as far as you can tell? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And the rifle is the same, or appears to be, is it not? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 144, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 145 is a small cardboard box containing two +bullets, .38 caliber. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize those as appearing to be the size of the +bullets that your husband had for the pistol? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It is hard for me to tell, because I don't understand +about this. I never looked at them, because I am afraid. + +Mr. RANKIN. But you have seen bullets like that, have you, in your +husband's apartment or rooming house, or in the Neely apartment or at +Mrs. Paine's? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At Mrs. Paine's I never saw any shells. + +On Neely Street, perhaps it is similar--New Orleans. It looks like it. +If they fit Lee's pistol, then they must be the right ones. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 145. + +The CHAIRMAN. Admitted. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 145, and +received in evidence.) + +The CHAIRMAN. We will take a short recess. + +(Brief recess.) + +The CHAIRMAN. We will be in order, please. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, would you step over with the interpreter to +this desk and point out the different pieces of clothing as we ask you +about it, please? + +Do you know the shirt that Lee Oswald wore the morning that he left? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. What else interests you? What do you +want? + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us whether any of this clothing set out on +this desk belonged to Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. OSWALD. These are Lee's shoes. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you say the shoes, you pointed to Exhibit 149? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. This is a pair of shoes of which Exhibit 149 is a +photograph. + +Mrs. OSWALD. These are his bath slippers. + +Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 148 are his bath slippers? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Japanese bath slippers. These shoes I have never seen. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 147, you say those are shoes you have never +seen? + +How about Exhibit 146? + +Mrs. OSWALD. These are his, yes. These are all Lee's shirts. + +Mr. RANKIN. Exhibits 150, 151---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. These are his pajamas. + +Mr. RANKIN. Exhibits 150, and 151 are Lee Oswald's shirts, is that +right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And Exhibit 152 is a pair of his pajamas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And Exhibit 153--you recognize that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is his shirt. + +Mr. RANKIN. And Exhibit 154? Is that one of his shirts? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 155? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, also. Why is it all torn? + +Mr. RANKIN. We are advised it was when he was hurt, they cut into some +of these. + +Do you recall whether or not he was wearing Exhibit--the shirt that I +point to now, the morning of the 22d of November--Exhibit 150? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was a dark shirt. + +Mr. RANKIN. You think that was the one? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. I call your attention to Exhibit 156. Is that a pair of his +pants? + +Mrs. OSWALD. These are his work pants. + +Mr. RANKIN. And 157? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Also work pants. These are all work pants. + +Mr. RANKIN. 158? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Why were both of those cut? I don't understand. + +Mr. RANKIN. I have not been informed, but I will try to find out for +you. + +Mrs. OSWALD. It is not necessary. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall which of the pants he was wearing on the +morning of November 22, 1963? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think the gray ones, but I am not sure, because it was +dark in the room, and I paid no attention to what pants he put on. + +Mr. RANKIN. By the gray ones, you are referring to what I point to as +Exhibit 157, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us about Exhibit 159, a sweater? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That was my gift to Lee, a sweater. + +Mr. RANKIN. 160? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's shirt. + +Mr. RANKIN. 161? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is a pullover sweater. This is his pullover sweater. + +Mr. RANKIN. 162? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's--an old shirt. + +Mr. RANKIN. Sort of a jacket? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. 163? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Also. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall which one of the sweaters or jackets he was +wearing on the morning of November 22, 1963? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. + +Mr. RANKIN. When was the last time that you saw this jacket, Exhibit +163? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember seeing it on the morning of November 22, +1963? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The thing is that I saw Lee in the room, and I didn't see +him getting dressed in the room. That is why it is difficult for me to +say. But I told him to put on something warm on the way to work. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether the jacket, Exhibit 163, is something +that he put on in your presence at any time that day? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Not in my presence. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you didn't observe it on him at any time, then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is it possible that Exhibit 163 was worn by him that +morning without your knowing about it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Quite possible. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, at the time you saw him at the Dallas jail, can you +tell us what clothing of any that are on this desk he was wearing at +that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. None of these. He had on a white T-shirt. What trousers he +was wearing, I could not tell, because I only saw him through a window. + +Mr. RANKIN. Would you examine the collar on the shirt? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is Lee's shirt. + +Mr. RANKIN. It has a mark "Brent long tail sanforized." + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I know this shirt. I gave it to him. The sweater is +also his. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any of these clothes that your husband was +wearing when he came home Thursday night, November 21, 1963? + +Mrs. OSWALD. On Thursday I think he wore this shirt. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is that Exhibit 150? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember anything else he was wearing at that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It seems he had that jacket, also. + +Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 162? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And the pants, Exhibit 157? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But I am not sure. This is as much as I can remember. + +Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. + +Mr. THORNE. I identify this photograph, which is marked Exhibit 164 +as being a true photograph of the shirt displayed to Mrs. Oswald, and +recognized by her as being a shirt that she gave to Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer all of the Exhibits, Nos. 146 to 164, inclusive. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. + +(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 146 to +164, inclusive, and received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you remember any information or documents +under your control or in your possession which would relate to or shed +any light on the matters we have been examining which you have not +presented here? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have nothing else. Everything has been taken from me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Some of the Commissioners have a question or two, or a few +questions. If you will permit them, they would like to address them to +you. + +Representative BOGGS. Mrs. Oswald, this question has already been asked +you, but I would like to ask it again. + +I gather that you have reached the conclusion in your own mind that +your husband killed President Kennedy. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Regretfully, yes. + +Representative BOGGS. During the weeks and months prior to the +assassination--and I think this question has also been asked--did you +ever at any time hear your late husband express any hostility towards +President Kennedy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Representative BOGGS. What motive would you ascribe to your husband in +killing President Kennedy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. As I saw the documents that were being read to me, I came +to the conclusion that he wanted in any--by any means, good or bad, to +get into history. But now that I have heard a part of the translation +of some of the documents, I think that there was some political +foundation to it, a foundation of which I am not aware. + +Representative BOGGS. By that, do you mean that your husband acted in +concert with someone else? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, only alone. + +Representative BOGGS. You are convinced that his action was his action +alone, that he was influenced by no one else? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I am convinced. + +Representative BOGGS. Did you consider your husband a Communist? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He told me when we were in New Orleans that he was a +Communist, but I didn't believe him, because I said, "What kind of a +Communist are you if you don't like the Communists in Russia?" + +Representative BOGGS. Did he like the Communists in the United States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He considered them to be on a higher level and more +conscious than the Communists in Russia. + +Representative BOGGS. Did you consider your husband a normal man in the +usual sense of the term? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He was always a normal man, but where it concerned his +ideas, and he did not introduce me to his ideas, I did not consider him +normal. + +Representative BOGGS. Maybe I used the wrong terminology. Did you +consider him mentally sound? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he was smart and capable. Only he did not use his +capabilities in the proper direction. He was not deprived of reason--he +was not a man deprived of reason. + +Representative BOGGS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. + +The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, did you have any questions to ask? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No one knows the truth, no one can read someone else's +thoughts, as I could not read Lee's thoughts. But that is only my +opinion. + +Senator COOPER. Mrs. Oswald, some of the questions that I ask you you +may have answered--because I have been out at times. + +I believe you have stated that your husband at times expressed +opposition to or dislike of the United States or of its political or +economic system, is that correct? + +Mrs. OSWALD. As far as I know, he expressed more dissatisfaction +with economic policy, because as to the political matters he did not +enlighten me as to his political thoughts. + +Senator COOPER. Did he ever suggest to you or to anyone in your +presence that the economic system of the United States should be +changed, and did he suggest any means for changing it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He never proposed that, but from his conversations it +followed that it would be necessary to change it. But he didn't propose +any methods. + +Senator COOPER. Did he ever say to you or anyone in your presence that +the system might be changed if officials were changed or authorities of +our country were changed? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, he never said that to me. + +Senator COOPER. Did he ever express to you any hostility towards any +particular official of the United States? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I know that he didn't like Walker, but I don't know +whether you could call him an official. + +Senator COOPER. May I ask if you ever heard anyone express to him +hostility towards President Kennedy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, never. + +Senator COOPER. More specifically, I will ask--did you know Mr. +Frazier? + +Representative BOGGS. Wesley Frazier. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, that is the boy who took him to work. + +Senator COOPER. You never heard him or anyone else express to your +husband any hostility towards President Kennedy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Senator COOPER. Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. + +Senator COOPER. That is all I have. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, have you anything further you would like to +ask? + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Chief Justice, I only have one question. Mr. Rankin has +kindly asked several questions I had during the course of this hearing, +these hearings the last 3 days. + +Apart from trying to achieve a place in history, can you think of any +other motive or anything that your husband felt he would achieve by the +act of assassinating the President? That he was trying to accomplish +something? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It is hard for me to say what he wanted to accomplish, +because I don't understand him. + +The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, did you have anything further? + +Representative FORD. Mrs. Oswald after President Kennedy was +assassinated, your husband was apprehended and later questioned by a +number of authorities. In the questioning he denied that he kept a +rifle at Mrs. Paine's home. He denied shooting President Kennedy. And +he questioned the authenticity of the photographs that you took of him +holding the rifle and the holster. + +Now, despite these denials by your husband, you still believe Lee +Oswald killed President Kennedy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Representative FORD. That is all. + +Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, just one or two other questions. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. + +Representative BOGGS. Mrs. Oswald, when you lived in New Orleans with +your husband, and he was active in this alleged Cuban committee, did +you attend any meetings of any committees--was anyone else present? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, never. + +Representative BOGGS. Were there any members of the committee other +than your husband? + +Mrs. OSWALD. There was no one. There was no one. There was no +organization in New Orleans. Only Lee was there. + +Representative BOGGS. One other question. Did he also dislike Russia +when he was in Russia? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Representative BOGGS. Thank you. + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, you have been a very cooperative +witness. You have helped the Commission. We are grateful to you for +doing this. We realize that this has been a hard ordeal for you to go +through. + +Mrs. OSWALD. It was difficult to speak all the truth. + +The CHAIRMAN. We hope you know that the questions we have asked you +have--none of them have been from curiosity or to embarrass you, but +only to report to the world what the truth is. + +Now, after you leave here, you may have a copy of everything you have +testified to. You may read it, and if there is anything that you think +was not correctly recorded, or anything you would like to add to it, +you may do so. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I unfortunately--I cannot--since it will be in English. + +The CHAIRMAN. Your lawyer may read it for you, and if he points out +something to you that you think you should have changed, you may feel +free to do that. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he will read it. + +The CHAIRMAN. And if in the future we should like to ask you some more +questions about something that develops through the investigation, +would you be willing to come back and talk to us again? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +The CHAIRMAN. We hope it won't be necessary to disturb you. But if it +is, you would be willing to come, would you not? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. + +Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman--I would just like to suggest that +if Mrs. Oswald does wish to revise any of her testimony, that this be +called to the attention of the Commission through her attorney, Mr. +Thorne. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes, of course. That is the proper procedure. + +Now, Mr. Thorne, you have been very cooperative with the Commission. We +appreciate that cooperation. We hope that if anything new should come +to your attention that would be helpful to the Commission, you would +feel free to communicate with us. + +Mr. THORNE. Certainly, Mr. Chairman. + +The CHAIRMAN. Do you care to say anything at this time? + +Mr. THORNE. Mr. Chairman, if I may, I would like to make a closing +statement. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. And may I say, also, if you have any questions you +would like to ask Mrs. Oswald before you make your statement, you may +do that. + +Mr. THORNE. There are none. + +Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to say Mr. Thorne +has been very helpful. + +Mr. THORNE. During the noon recess, Mrs. Oswald made four requests of +me to make before this Commission. + +You have anticipated several of them, but I think there are one or two +that need to be covered. + +To begin with, she wanted me to express to you, Mr. Chairman, and +members of your Commission, her extreme gratitude to you for the +consideration and kindness that has been shown to her in these +proceedings. She feels you have certainly gone out of your way to make +her comfortable, and she has been comfortable, in spite of the sad and +tragic events we have been discussing. + +Point No. 2, she did want to make it quite clear to the Commission +that in the event her testimony was needed for rebuttal or whatever on +down the line, she would be available, and at your wish would come to +Washington as convenient for you when it was again convenient. + +The third point you have already covered. She did request that she be +given a copy of these proceedings, which I told her she would receive, +and, of course, copies of the exhibits would be attached for her +identification and examination. + +Mrs. OSWALD. And copies of some of the letters? + +Mr. THORNE. This will all be attached as exhibits. + +And the final point was this. She has been, as you know, under +protective custody of the Secret Service from shortly after the +assassination. She has been most grateful for this protection. The +Secret Service have shown her every courtesy, as everyone has in this +matter. She is extremely grateful for this protection they have given +her. + +I haven't had personally enough time to think this thing out myself. I +don't know. It is her request, however, that, at this point she feels +the protection is no longer necessary. She feels that at this time she +can walk among people with her head held high. She has nothing to hide. +She is not afraid. + +She feels that the Secret Service has performed a noble service to her. +And this is not meant by way of saying for some action on their part +she wants to get rid of them. + +I have noticed that since we have been in Washington she resents being +guided. She feels she can find her way by herself. + +And, if the Commission would give this matter consideration--we don't +know whom to go to. I haven't thought about it. I don't know who has +suggested the Secret Service continue protecting her. It is a matter, +of course, that ought to be considered. + +But it is her request that as soon as it is practical, she would like +to be a free agent and out of the confines of this protection. + +I point out to you gentlemen that she is living, as you well know, with +Mr. and Mrs. Martin. They have a rather modest home. Three bedrooms. It +has a den and it has a combination living and dining room. The house +is not extremely large, but there are always two men in the house. +This does burden the family. This is not a request on the part of the +Martins. They welcome this protection. This is something she thinks in +terms of herself that she does not want to feel that she is being held +back. + +Is that correct? + +Mrs. OSWALD. What I wanted to say, Mr. Thorne has said. + +Mr. THORNE. For my own part, gentlemen, thank you. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Thorne, we can understand Mrs. Oswald's desire to +live a perfectly normal life with her children. Whatever has been done, +as you recognize, has been done for her protection, and for her help +during these terrible days that she has been going through. + +But she may feel from this moment on that she is under no protection, +except what she might ask for. And so you are perfectly free, Mrs. +Oswald, to live your normal life without any interference from anyone. +And should anyone interfere with you, I hope you would call it to the +attention of the Commission. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you very much. + +Mr. THORNE. Mr. Chairman, may I add one point, please? + +For our purposes, I would appreciate it if this matter of removal, +assuming that it is to be removed shortly, is kept secret, also. + +I would prefer generally for the public to feel that--at least +temporarily--that this protection is available. I don't feel any qualms +myself. I don't feel there are any problems. But I think the matter of +Mrs. Marguerite Oswald has come up. There may be some problem from some +sources. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Thorne, I think the correct answer to that would +be--and it would be the answer we would give--that Mrs. Oswald, in the +future, will be given such assistance and only such assistance as she +asks for. + +Mr. THORNE. Thank you very much, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. I want to say also before the session adjourns that we +are indebted to Mr. Krimer for the manner in which he has interpreted. +Next to the witness, I am sure he has had the hardest position in this +whole hearing. And we appreciate the manner in which he has done it. + +Mr. KRIMER. Thank you very much, sir. + +Mrs. OSWALD. He is a very good interpreter. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well. If there is nothing further to come before the +session, we will adjourn. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am very grateful to all of you. I didn't think among +Americans I would find so many friends. + +The CHAIRMAN. You have friends here. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. + +(Whereupon, at 5:50 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Monday, February 10, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD + +The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 10, 1964, at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman: Senator Richard B. +Russell, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and +Allen W. Dulles, members. + +Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel; John F. Doyle, attorney for Mrs. Marguerite Oswald; +and Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas. + + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order. + +Let the record show that Senator Russell and I are present, and we +convened today for the purpose of taking the testimony of Mrs. Oswald. + +Mrs. Oswald, would you rise and be sworn, please? + +Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, +and nothing but the truth, so help you God, throughout this proceeding? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I do--so help me God. + +The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. + +Now, Mrs. Oswald, you are here represented by an attorney, are you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; Mr. Doyle is representing me. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle is representing you. Mr. Doyle was appointed, +was he not, at your request? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I asked to be represented by counsel. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. And the record may show that Mr. Doyle was appointed +to represent her at the request of Mrs. Oswald by the president of the +Bar Association of the District of Columbia, Mr. Pratt. + +That is correct, is it not, Mr. Doyle? + +Mr. DOYLE. It is, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, you are appearing voluntarily before the +Commission, are you not? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, voluntarily. + +The CHAIRMAN. You requested to do so. + +In order that you may have a full opportunity to testify in your own +manner, and tell us everything that you know, and particularly because +we do not know what you know, I am going to ask you if you would like +first, in your own way, and in your own time, to tell us everything you +have concerning this case. + +You would like to do that, would you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Chief Justice Warren. I would like to very much. + +However, there are three things that I have asked that should be +brought before the Council, three requests of mine. One has already +been granted--that is the counsel, Mr. Doyle. And I do appreciate that +fact. + +I have stated publicly that I believe in the American way of life and +justice for all men, which is our American way of life. + +My son, Lee Harvey Oswald, was tried and convicted within a few hours +time, without benefit of counsel. And so I am appealing to the Board +that my son, Lee Harvey Oswald, be represented by counsel. I am being +represented by counsel. My daughter-in-law Marina was represented +by counsel. And I understand that all other witnesses will have the +privilege of being represented by counsel. + +However, the main object of the Commission is Lee Harvey Oswald, in the +murder of President Kennedy. So I strongly believe that Lee should be +represented by counsel. + +Now, my reasons for wanting this done this way is, I will state, +that Marina has testified. Marina has testified, according to the +papers--and I am assuming that this is correct--that Lee wanted to live +in Russia and Cuba, and that is why he went to Mexico. + +I happen to know differently--because Marina has told me the first day +I was with her, "Mama, I write to Russian consul. I want go back to +Russia. I like America. But Lee no get work." + +So you see, had a counsel been there in behalf of my son, when Marina +said that--it doesn't have to be a court trial or a cross-examination. +All I am asking is that this man sit quietly, and when he knows of +different facts, then he could say, "Well, Mrs. Oswald, isn't it true +that you wrote the Russian consul yourself, wanting to go back to +Russia?" + +And in this way, gentlemen, I believe you would have both sides and a +true picture. + +I cannot see how you can come to a true conclusion by taking individual +testimony. + +Now, I, myself, am here today to testify. I have been sworn in. But +that doesn't mean that I can tell the whole story. I may forget +something. And the counsel would know. + +We have investigators all over the country, the reporters are +interested, the public. I have over 1,500 letters, people expressing +their opinion of the way this case is being handled. And, believe me, +gentlemen, they are not satisfied. + +I can produce these documents for you. + +They think, like I think, that the American way of life, both sides +should be heard. + +I don't think that seven men of this Commission can come to a true +conclusion. What it will be, it will be an analysis of what the FBI +and the Secret Service and the Dallas police have--mainly, speculation +and opinion of other people. + +Now, Mr. Lane has affidavits, I understand, from the same witnesses +that have made statements to the Dallas police, which are contrary to +those particular statements. + +I implore you--I implore you, in the name of justice, to let my son, +Lee Harvey Oswald, who is accused of assassinating the President, and +I, the mother of this man, who is the accused's mother, be represented +by counsel. + +We have information pertinent to this case. + +My daughter-in-law is the only one who has testified. + +The things that came out in the paper--I know, I have documents. I am +not asking you to believe me as a mother. I can prove the statements +that I say. + +And I believe in this way you will have a true picture, and a much +better picture, because as you are going along you will be having both +sides, and won't have to wait to analyze the situation in the end, +as the testimony is being given by each individual, right then and +there--you will have the other party's testimony. + +Now, there is another---- + +The CHAIRMAN. Before you leave that, Mrs. Oswald, may I say to you, +first, that the Commission is not here to prosecute your dead son. It +is not here and it was not established to prosecute anyone. + +It is the purpose and the province of the Commission to obtain all the +facts that it can obtain, and then make an impartial report--not as a +prosecutor, but as an impartial Commission--on the manner in which the +President came to his death. + +We are trying to recognize the individual rights of all persons who +are called before the Commission, to let them have their lawyers, and +let their lawyers have an opportunity to examine them, as well as the +Commission. + +You may be sure that if Mr. Lane has any evidence of his own knowledge, +or has any accumulation of affidavits from others, to the effect--to +any effect, concerning this trial, that he will have an opportunity +to come here, just as you are here, in order to present those to the +Commission. + +But so far as his being here at all times before the Commission to +cross-examine or to be present when all witnesses are testifying--that +is not in accordance with the procedures of the Commission. + +But I assure you that if Mr. Lane has any evidence of any kind bearing +upon the assassination of the President, he will be accorded the same +opportunity that you have to come here and present them, and we will +give him an opportunity in his own way to tell his story, and present +his own evidence. And should he want counsel, he may have counsel, also. + +Now, you may go to your second point. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I am not finished with my first, please. + +I appreciate and I understand exactly what you have told me, Chief +Justice Warren. + +But there is one thing--and, of course, I will have to accept your +decision, and will be most happy to have Mr. Lane present his testimony +the way you have suggested. + +However, I am not in agreement with you. One point I want to make clear. + +We do not know the questions that you are asking of myself or Marina +or the other witnesses. And I contend that you cannot ask them the +pertinent questions because you don't know what I know, and what Mr. +Lane knows. And so you will still have an analysis in the long run, a +conclusion. + +I am going to go back to Marina. As I say, Marina made her +statements---- + +The CHAIRMAN. On that particular thing, may I say this: It is true that +we don't know how to examine you at the present time because we don't +know what you have to present to this Commission. But we are affording +you the opportunity before we ask you any questions to tell your story, +in your own way. + +Then we should know what questions we want to ask of you. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I understand that thoroughly. + +But I am a human being, going through a life story from childhood, and +I may forget something that my counsel would know. And that applies +to witnesses. They may forget to testify something that my counsel +has facts on. I will have to accept your verdict, but I don't do it +graciously. + +I want that for record. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Well, that is all right, Mrs. Oswald. You may state +that for the record. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have documents, and I would like to ask, please--I will +not leave any documents out of my hand. I carry them with me wherever I +go. Even Mr. Doyle has been told that the documents stay with me. + +I have had documents stolen from me. I have had newspaper clippings +stolen from me in my home, by the Secret Service. + +I make the statement perfectly plain. And so the documents stay with me. + +Now, these are originals. I want, and you will want, copies of every +original I have, and I will be more than happy to let you have them. +However, I want to be present when these copies are made and the +original returned to me. + +I will under no circumstances let anyone have my originals for an hour +or two, and then return them to me--if I am making myself plain. + +I would like to request that, please. + +The CHAIRMAN. We will accommodate you in that respect. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Then I have one other stipulation or request. + +When I tell my story, I will be including people in my story that +possibly you don't know of. I request that I have the privilege, +through you, of course, to subpena these people that are in connection +with the story that I tell, if you do not have the names already. + +And I feel sure that I have some information that you don't know about, +and there are some people involved. + +I also request that after my testimony, that Marina Oswald will be +subpenaed--not subpenaed but will then testify again, if you see fit. +And I believe that I have contrary testimony to her testimony that +would make it necessary for her to be recalled. + +I ask that that be granted. + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, of course you have no power of +subpena, and we have no power to give you the power of subpena. But you +may be sure that if your evidence produces anything that is critical +to this investigation, that we will pursue it to the end, in order to +determine the weight of the testimony for our final report. You may be +sure of that. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I appreciate that. + +The CHAIRMAN. But as to how we do it, or when we do it, you will just +have to leave that to the Commission. + +Mrs. OSWALD. You will give me the assurance that these people I name, +regardless of title--I am liable to name some very important people---- + +The CHAIRMAN. No, we cannot give you any assurance, because we don't +know---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. I see no reason, then, for my testimony. + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald--you cannot commit us to subpenaing +anybody. We don't know. You are talking to us, and we are in the dark. +You cannot commit this Commission to doing something that might be +improper, it might not even be helpful in any way, shape, or form. The +Commission will be reasonable in every respect. We have no desire to +protect anyone. We have no desire to injure you or anyone else in this +matter. And certainly you ought to have some confidence in a commission +that is appointed by the President, and not try to tie our hands in a +way that would be contrary to the manner in which commissions normally +proceed. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now, Mr. Warren, you made a statement that you in no +way--I cannot quote your words--intimidate me. But you did not include +my son. My son is being accused of the murder of President Kennedy. And +I think that my son should be considered in this. He is dead. But we +can show cause that my son is not the assassin of President Kennedy. +And so I would like my son--he is the main object of the Presidential +Commission, is he not, sir? + +The CHAIRMAN. No, no, he is not, Mrs. Oswald. The purpose of this +Commission is to determine what the facts are in the assassination of +President Kennedy. + +It is not an accusation against your son. There was an accusation +against your son in the Texas courts. That is an entirely different +proceeding. + +We are here to do justice and be fair to everyone concerned in this +matter. And I assure you that that is our main and our only purpose in +serving on this Commission. None of us cherish this responsibility. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am sure, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. And the only satisfaction we can derive from it is to be +fair to all concerned. + +And I assure you that is our objective in the matter. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I do not mean to imply that this Commission will not be +fair. I know about the men on the Commission. And they are all very +fine men, including yourself, Chief Justice Warren. If I have implied +that, I will--will now say I do not imply. But I do state a fact that +I do not think that you can come to a true conclusion. I want that for +record. + +Now, I am going to produce--and this will be a fact--and this is on the +basis---- + +The CHAIRMAN. Now, we have finished the three things that you are +talking about, and we are going to your testimony? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is in connection with this, Chief Justice Warren. And +I think it is very important to present a picture. + +And then if you allow me these few minutes, I will be through. + +Is that satisfactory, sir? + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes, go right ahead. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I believe you mentioned that you would not have the +power or give me the power to subpena them. But if I could produce the +facts in my story, then I believe we should have these people called. + +Now, here is an article in the Washington paper--and the date happens +to be torn off, but I can get it--that Senator John G. Tower had made. +And I have outlined here---- + +The CHAIRMAN. I wonder, Mrs. Oswald--before we get into any details of +this kind, let's settle this situation as to whether the Commission +will say to you now that it will subpena anyone you ask. + +I must say to you that you cannot put that burden on the Commission. +The Commission will have to exercise its own discretion as to who it +subpenas and when. + +Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Chief Justice, may I say something? I was wondering +if whether or not what Mrs. Oswald is addressing respectfully to the +Commission is her confidence that if in the course of her own testimony +and the actual facts that she is producing, she expresses confidence +that if those facts recommend the subpena of additional witnesses, or +the recall of others, she expresses her confidence that that would be +done, if the facts she outlines so require. + +The CHAIRMAN. She may be very sure of that, as I tried to tell her. + +But the only thing--I would not want Mrs. Oswald to leave here and say, +"I gave the Commission a list of witnesses and they did not call all of +them." + +Now, that is a matter that will have to be in the province of the +Commission, and not in the province of a witness. + +And I say that without any combative--not in a combative spirit. +Because, as your counsel states, I think we are not far apart on it, +Mrs. Oswald. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. And I appreciate the fact---- + +The CHAIRMAN. But fairness will have to judge our actions. And we +propose to be fair. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I guess I am a very stubborn person. I am a very +aggressive person, as you know by now. + +I would like--this would be just 2 minutes, and it would bring a point, +and then I would be through, if I may. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Senator Towner has dates here, and the main part of the +article is that he had received a letter from the State Department. + +Now, I would like--I have information from the State Department, I have +documents from the State Department which is contrary to the dates and +contrary to Senator Tower's public statement. + +And I would like to have the letter that he has from the State +Department, and the name of the man that wrote it, because it is +contrary to what I have. + +He could have been, to use an American slang, shooting his mouth off, +because he said if he went to Russia let him stay there, I would not +help him--is what he said. + +But then again he may have this very important letter from this man in +the State Department, which is incorrect, from what I have. + +Now, he claims--and if you would like to read that--and that is what I +was trying to bring out. + +The CHAIRMAN. I think you will have to leave that to the wisdom of the +Commission and its sense of fair play, and what is necessary, all facts +considered. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I have had my say, gentlemen, and I will most +graciously continue. + +However. I am not too happy that I will not have counsel for my son, +because I believe my son would also be entitled to counsel. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well, you may continue. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I will start---- + +The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, may I introduce Congressman Ford, also a +member of the Commission. + +Now, Mrs. Oswald--Mr. Lee Rankin will be in charge of the hearing from +this point on. He is our General Counsel, as you know. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, will you proceed to produce the papers and +tell us about them, and then I will ask the Commission after we get +them, to permit us to substitute copies, and in accordance with your +request we will let you be present at the time we make the photostats. + +The CHAIRMAN. You may start to tell your story in your own way. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have three different stories. I understand from Mr. +Rankin's letter that my life is to be told from the very start, and so +is Lee's life, from the very start. So which will I start first? + +I believe it would be easier for me and of more benefit to the counsel +if I would continue with one life, the whole story, and then continue +with the--whichever way you would suggest I do it. + +Mr. RANKIN. If you could start out and tell us within the period that +Lee Oswald returned from the Soviet Union on, whatever you know about +it, in your own way, and then we will go back to the other matters +later. + +Is that all right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--anything is just fine. I am willing to help in +any way possible. + +I wanted to state it clearly in the beginning. + +I received a speedletter from the State Department stating that Lee +would leave Moscow, and how he would leave and arrive in New York--on +June 13, 1962. I was on a case in Crowell, Tex. I am a practical nurse. +And I was taking care of a very elderly woman, whose daughter lived in +Fort Worth, Tex. + +So I was not able to leave and meet Lee. + +Robert, his brother, met him, and Lee went to Robert's home. + +Approximately about a week later--I could not stand it any more--I +called the daughter and had her come to take care of her mother, and +took 3 days off, and went to Fort Worth to see Lee and Marina. + +Marina is a beautiful girl. And I said to Lee, "Marina, she doesn't +look Russian. She is beautiful." + +He says, "Of course not. That is why I married her, because she looks +like an American girl." + +I asked her where he had met her, and he said he met her at a social +function, a community function. + +I said, "You know, Lee, I am getting ready--I was getting ready to +write a book on your so-called defection. + +"I had researched it and came to Washington in 1961, and, by the way, +asked to see President Kennedy, because I had a lot of extenuating +circumstances at the time because of the defection." + +He said, "Mother, you are not going to write a book." + +I said, "Lee, don't tell me what to do. I cannot write the book now, +because, Honey, you are alive and back." + +But, at the time, I had no way of knowing whether my son was living or +dead, and I planned to write the book. + +"But don't tell me what to do. It has nothing to do with you and +Marina. It is my life, because of your defection." + +He said, "Mother, I tell you you are not to write the book. They could +kill her and her family." + +That was in the presence of my son Robert Oswald and his wife. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us about what date that was? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Let's see. Lee arrived in New York on June 13, and--now, +I have a letter stating, from Lee, that he is arriving in New York on +June 13th. However, he plans to go to Washington for a day or two. So +I have no way of knowing, Mr. Rankin, whether he came straight from +New York to my son's home, or if he stayed in New York and came to +Washington a few days. + +But I have the letter stating that. + +But I have no way of knowing. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was this conversation within about a week of the time that +he came back? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, approximately. That is correct. + +So I stayed in Fort Worth 2 or 3 days. I did not live at Robert's home. +I rented a motel. In fact, the lady of the mother I was taking care +of paid my motel expenses while I was in Fort Worth. But I went there +every day. + +While I was there--Marina is a pharmacist. I have a medical book, and +Lee was saying that he was losing his hair, and how he had become bald, +because of the cold weather in Texas. + +So I got the medical book, looking up baldness, and the treatment for +baldness, and Marina came by and she read the prescriptions. + +So I said, "Lee, she reads English," and he said, "Mother, that is +Latin, of course, that is universal." + +So because it was a medical conversation, Lee said he had an operation +while in the Soviet Union on his throat. + +I am sorry--but all of the confusion of myself being there and the +daughter-in-law, the Russian girl--that was never gone into. That is +all I know. + +But that was also said in the presence of my son Robert--that he had an +operation on his throat while in the Soviet Union. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say when that was? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; that was all that was said. + +As I say, with all the confusion of Marina, we were so thrilled with +Marina, with the children and all, there was quite a bit of confusion. + +Now, I left, and I went back to Crowell on my job. + +While I was in Robert's home, Lee immediately was out job-hunting. And +I felt very bad about that, because they had come 10,000 miles by ship, +by plane, and by train, which was an awfully hard trip with a young +baby, and I thought he should at least have a week or two before he +would look for work. + +But I want you to know that immediately Lee was out looking for work. + +And this is the time that Lee had gone to the public stenographer, made +the statement that he was writing a book. + +You probably have that information. It was highly publicized. + +I, myself, gave him the $10 that he gave the public stenographer. + +I bought Marina clothes, and brought clothes to her while at my +daughter-in-law's house, bought diapers for the baby. And Marina had +more clothes when she arrived in the States than I now have. + +So what I am trying to state is as we go further into the story, it has +been stated that my son neglected Marina, and that she didn't have any +clothes. The Russian people have stated that all throughout Texas in +the papers. And that is not true. I happen to know, because I, myself, +bought Marina three dresses. And my daughter-in-law bought dresses, and +my daughter-in-law's sister, which I would like to have as a witness, +bought clothes for Marina. So there is this conflicting testimony. + +Mr. RANKIN. What daughter-in-law was that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Robert's wife. And Robert's wife's sister, who is a +schoolteacher, bought clothes for Marina. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is she married? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. She is a schoolteacher. She is single. + +So that story there is incorrect. + +So then I went back to Crowell, Tex., and I was not satisfied in my +mind because the way they lived. They only had a two-bedroom house. As +you know. Robert has two children. And there was another couple with +another child. + +So Lee immediately began looking for work. + +So I decided that I would quit this job and help the children all I +could. So I did. I gave notice. And I came to Fort Worth, and I rented +an apartment at the Rotary Apartments, which is on West 7th and Summit. +And Lee and Marina then came to live with me. + +Mr. RANKIN. How long did they stay at Robert's? + +Mrs. OSWALD. They stayed at Robert's approximately 2 or 3 weeks, sir. + +So then they came to live with me. + +While there, I said to Lee--I am ahead of my story. + +Lee and Marina had sent me wonderful gifts, and I have the gifts, +from Russia. A box of tea, very fine tea, a Russian scarf, pure linen +napkins, embroidered with my initial, a box of candy for Christmas that +has a Russian Santa Claus on it. + +I said to Lee. "Lee, I want to know one thing. Why is it you decided to +return back to the United States when you had a job in Russia, and as +far as I know you seemed to be pretty well off, because of the gifts +that you have sent me. And you are married to a Russian girl, and she +would be better off in her homeland than here. I want to know." + +He said, "Mother, not even Marina knows why I have returned to the +United States." + +And that is all the information I ever got out of my son. + +"Not even Marina knows why I have returned to the United States." + +Mr. RANKIN. How did you get along when you were there together with +Marina and your son? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, that was a very happy month, Mr. Rankin. Marina +was very happy. She had the best home, I believe, that she had ever +had. And Lee--I was taking Lee out to work every morning, looking for +work, through the unemployment commission, and ads in the paper. And +I was taking care of the baby and doing the cooking, and Marina was +helping clean up. And she would wash the dishes. And Lee and Marina +would go for long walks every afternoon, and I would take care of the +baby. Marina would sing around the house, and watch the television and +comment on different programs, programs that she had seen in Russia. + +She knew--there was a picture with Gregory Peck, and she said, "Mama, I +know Gregory Peck." + +And she was singing Santa Lucia. + +And here again in my stupidity, I said to Lee, "Lee, she knows English, +she is singing Santa Lucia." + +He said, "Mother, that is an international song." + +Marina was very happy, and I was very happy to have the children. + +And Lee desperately looked for work. + +He was offered several good jobs from the State Employment Office of +Texas. One in particular, I remember he said that he regretted not +getting the job, but they told him because his wife was not an American +citizen, that they would not be able to hire him. + +He met obstacles all the way. + +This one particular woman at the Texas employment agency took an +interest in Lee and went out all the way to give Lee clues for jobs. +And I, myself, took Lee job-hunting every day. + +And it is through the employment office that he became employed 3 weeks +later, after he was in my home, by the Leslie Manufacturing Co. in Fort +Worth, which is a sheetmetal place. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, while Marina was living with you there, and your son, +and the little baby---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. June. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk to Marina, and did she speak English to you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, she spoke English, Mr. Rankin. Like she would +say--and we used the dictionary when she didn't understand. + +She would say--I would say, "Marina, you now nurse your baby." + +"Yes, Mama. The time." + +Or "No time." + +With motions--"no time. Mama." + +She spoke English. + +Mr. RANKIN. What I would like to find out for the Commission, if we +can, in regard to speaking English, did you think she was able to talk +English fluently, or did you think she was in the process of learning +it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. She was in the process of learning. But she understood +more than she could talk. + +And I have a letter from Lee stating that Marina also speaks and +understands French, that she had learned at grammar school. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you know French? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. So you could not tell? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I could not tell. + +And I didn't think a thing of it. + +And, of course. Marina and Lee spoke Russian all the time, even in +front of me. + +And you asked about this time--it was a very happy time. They would sit +at the table. They were playing a game, and I said to Lee, "What is it +you are doing?" + +Because they were always talking in Russian. + +"Mother, we are playing a game which is similar to American +tic-tac-toe." + +And they also taught each other. They had books. They are both +children--very intelligent and studious. Lee was teaching Marina +English, and Marina was teaching him some things that he wanted to know +about Russia, in my home. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, you were saying that he got this job at the Leslie +Manufacturing Co. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +And then his first pay--he kept his first pay. And then the second pay, +he rented the home on Mercedes Street, which is the south side, and +approximately 10 blocks from where I lived at the Rotary Apartment, and +approximately 10 blocks from where he was to work. + +Lee had no car, and Lee walked to and back from work, which helped to +save money. + +Now, you must understand that this couple had no money, and had +nothing. I gave them some dishes, and some silverware, and just a few +little things that I could help out with. + +But Lee did have the first week's pay. + +And then the second week's pay. And he rented this home which was +$59.50 a month. It was a nice little one-bedroom furnished duplex, in a +nice neighborhood, convenient to his work. + +But then that leaves the boy broke. + +I brought food into the house. I never like to talk about the other +members of the family, because to me that is speculation. But I know +that Robert brought food, also, in the house. And they were not in +want. Marina nursed June. + +Now, it has been stated in the paper that the Russian friends have gone +into the home and they are talking about this home, and found that they +were in desperate straits, that there was no food in the house, and no +milk for the baby. + +I say Marina nursed the baby. + +They may have walked into this home, where maybe they didn't have at +that particular time any milk in the box. Maybe Lee was going to bring +groceries home. But I know they were not in destitute circumstances in +that respect. + +They had no money and didn't have anything. I brought groceries, and I +brought a roll of scotch toweling. I had bought two packs and I gave +them one. + +And the next day when I went by, the scotch toweling was in the +kitchen, on a coat hanger, with a nail. + +And I think that is real nice, a young couple that doesn't have any +money, that they can use their imagination, and put up the scotch +toweling to use on a coat hanger. They are just starting married life +in a new country. And they have no money. But here is the point. The +Russian friends, who were established, and had cars and fine homes, +could not see this Russian girl doing without. They are the ones that +interfered. They are the ones that interfered, and were not happy the +way this Russian girl--and within a short time, then, this Russian girl +had a playpen, had a sewing machine, had a baby bed, and a Taylor Tot. +And this all came out in the paper--that they supplied this to the +girl, because she was in need of these things. + +I say it is not necessary for a young couple to have a playpen for a +baby. We have millions and millions of American couples in the United +States that cannot afford playpens for the children. I, myself, have +been in that position. + +So I think those things were immaterial. + +The point I am trying to bring out is that these Russian friends have +interfered in their lives, and thought that the Russian girl should +have more than necessary. + +And my son could not supply these things at that particular time. He +was just starting to work. + +This, to me, is very strong in my mind, that there are a lot of Russian +friends that were made immediately, that have interfered and have +publicly stated--a circle of friends, approximately eight or nine, +that would not give their names in the paper, they were interviewed by +Mr. Tinsley of the Star Telegram--that has downed Lee for every way +possible. + +So these are the Russian friends who are established with cars, and +didn't think that the Russian girl was getting a good break in America. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were there any differences between you and Lee Oswald or +Marina while they were in your home? Did you have any quarrels? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, no, sir, none at all. + +Now, there was one thing. And I will point out the character of my son, +and what I am saying about the playpen and so on. + +Now, this was all done within a few weeks time. They moved there--they +left my home in July, and they moved there in August, and then they +moved to Dallas in October. So it was in this period of time that all +these things were accumulated from Russian friends. + +And no man likes other people giving--interfering in his way of living, +and giving all these things to his wife that he himself cannot supply. +This is a human trait, I would say. + +Now, I want to bring this story up. + +I could not afford to buy a bed for my grandchild, because I have +worked prior to this for nothing. The job that I had quit I was making +$25 a week, gentlemen--a 24-hour live-in job. The jobs prior to this I +worked for $10 a week, 7 days a week, a live-in job. + +Because of Lee's so-called defection, and my accident, the way I was +treated, left destitute, without any medical or compensation, I decided +to devote my life to humanity, and I became a practical nurse. And I +have worked for $5 a week, living in the place. + +So I had no money, I had $200 saved, when I came to Fort Worth, and +that is what I rented the house with, and brought the food with. + +So then that leaves me broke. + +So I gave up a job in order to help this girl. + +So to get back now to the home, Mr. Rankin--we had no quarrels. This +month was beautiful. Marina was very happy. + +I had the car and the television, and we went around. + +As I say, they were free to go and come like they want. They would take +long walks. + +If you are not familiar with Fort Worth, Tex., from the Rotary +Apartment to Leonard Brothers is approximately 3 miles, and they used +to walk there, and they came home--Marina came home with a Cancan +petticoat and some hose that Lee bought here with a few dollars that +Robert and I had given him--he spent on his wife. + +So that was a very happy time. + +Now, when they lived in the home on Mercedes Street that he rented, I +was employed as an OB, a nurse, in Fort Worth, Tex., at an OB's salary. +And that salary, gentlemen, will astonish you. I worked, lived in, for +$9 a day, 24 hours duty. + +On an OB case--I am very busy with the baby all day long because +people are coming in and out, giving presents and so on. I have a 10 +o'clock feeding for the baby. And it is approximately 11 o'clock before +I am through and in bed. The baby is up again at 2 o'clock. It is +approximately 3:30 before I am through again with the baby. The baby +is up again at 5:30. And it is approximately--then my day starts. I am +stressing the point that I worked for $9 a day during all that, a $9 a +day job. So that is 7 days a week, $63. + +Now, this is the first time I have had a nurse's salary, I want you to +understand. + +So with my first pay, I bought Marina clothes, I bought the baby +clothes, and I brought food into this home. I went all out for Marina. +I just love her, and was just thrilled to death with her. And I bought +a highchair. I could not afford a bed, because I didn't have enough +money to buy the bed. So that is why I bought the clothes and things of +that sort. But I bought the baby a highchair. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did Marina treat you then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Fine. But then Marina was not satisfied with the things +that I bought her. + +As you see, the way I am properly dressed--I don't say I mean to be the +height of fashion, but I have--before becoming a nurse I was in the +business world, and I have been a manager in the merchandise field. So +I do know clothes. + +And I bought her some shorts. And she wanted short shorts, like the +Americans. She pictured America in her mind evidently. + +And I bought her a little longer shorts. + +And "I no like, Mama." + +I said, "Marina, you are a married woman and it is proper for you to +have a little longer shorts than the younger girls." + +"No, Mama." + +And I will stress this--that Marina was never too happy--"No, Mama, no +nice, no, Mama, no this." + +That was perfectly all right. I thought she didn't understand our ways. +I didn't feel badly about it. + +I am going to get back to the highchair, to give you a picture of my +son. + +I bought the highchair and brought it over there, and Lee was not at +home. And Marina didn't know what a highchair was. And she told me in +Russian. I said, "How do they feed babies in Russia?" By this time, +June was 4 or 5 months old, just getting ready to sit up. + +"We put baby on lap, Mama, and baby eat on lap." + +And so a highchair to me, I think, was new to Marina. + +So approximately 2 or 3 days later I go over there and Lee says to me, +"Now, Mother, I want you to understand right here and now--I want you +to stop giving all these gifts to me and my wife. I want to give Marina +whatever is necessary, the best I can do. I want you to keep your money +and take care of yourself, because today or tomorrow you take sick, and +you spend all your money on us, I will have to take care of you." Which +makes very good sense. + +But he strongly put me in my place about buying things for his wife +that he himself could not buy. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I agreed with him. And I said--the shock of it--I realize +what a mother-in-law I was in interfering. And, of course, that is +part that we mothers-in-law do unconsciously. We try to help out our +children, and in a way we are interfering in their life. They would +rather have their own way of doing things. + +And I realize that I had interfered, and the boy wanted to take care of +his wife. So no more was said about it. + +I go into many homes, being a nurse, and I see this problem also, where +the mothers and mothers-in-law bring things, and the men strongly +object to it--they would rather do without, and have their wife do +without, and they themselves be the master of the home. + +So then I realized I was being a foolish mother-in-law, and that he was +perfectly right. + +I should save my money and take care of myself. He had a wife and baby +to take care of. If I didn't have any money, he might have to take care +of me. So I agreed with that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina say anything about that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, no, Marina didn't know--unless she understood the +English part. I have no way of knowing, you see. + +Mr. RANKIN. All right. Tell us what happened after that, then. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now, let me think just a minute. + +This, gentlemen, is very emotional to me, because it is a humanitarian +side that I am trying to bring out. Material things are involved to me +that are of no consequence. And I am trying to point out the fact that +these Russian people seemed to think that the Russian girl should have +material things. + +And all through my story, I can prove things that have happened of this +nature. + +Yes--I will continue. + +I was on the OB case for very wealthy people. I then became a nurse and +by word of mouth I had worked in the finest homes in Fort Worth at this +salary. I have worked for Ammon Carter, Jr., who is the owner of the +Star Telegram. I have worked in his home. I have worked for Dr. Ross +seven weeks in his home. I have worked for Mayor Vandergriff. I took +care of his last baby in his home. And I can go on and on. + +So I have been employed in over 200 homes at this salary. So I know +the difference of working in very poor homes, people on welfare, that +I worked in, and then working in the rich homes. So I have experience, +gentlemen, is what I am trying to say. + +So I mentioned to Mrs. Rosenthal that Lee and Marina didn't have a baby +bed, and Lee didn't have work clothes. He had had his suits from the +United States yet with him when he went to Russia. But he needed work +clothes since he got this job. + +She said, "Mrs. Oswald, what build is he?" + +And I told her. And he was about the same build as her husband. + +So she got out a lot of work clothes that her husband didn't want. +However, she asked me $10 for 12 pairs of used pants. And I would not +buy--give her $12. Here is a very wealthy woman, and she knows the +story. And she knows that I have no money. And yet she expects me to +pay for his used clothing. And so I have this principle about me. And I +did not buy the used clothing, the clothing for Lee. + +Now, Lee is having a birthday, which is October 18th. And this is +approximately the 6th or 7th of October. + +Now, this Sunday, October 12th, I went--this is very important, +gentleman--I went to this home and I was there--I asked to get off an +hour or two to see the children, from this OB case at the Rosenthals. I +went to see my son and daughter-in-law, and they were nicely dressed. +And while there, about 10 minutes, a young couple came into the home, +approximately the same age as Marina and Lee, and they had a little +boy who I would say was about 6 or 8 months older than June. The woman +put the little boy in the playpen with June, and June went to touch +him, and Marina got up and said, "Oh, no, hurt baby." She spoke in +English. So I said, "Do you speak Russian?" to this couple. And they +said, "No, we don't. We are Americans. But my father"--and I will have +to say this--"or grandfather"--I do not know which--"is a Russian, from +Siberia, and that is how we know Marina and Lee." + +So the conversation was general. And in the general conversation--now, +this couple was from Dallas, visiting my family in Fort Worth. The +conversation was general. + +And she said, "Lee, my father has this place of business in Dallas, and +will offer you a job in Dallas." + +I said, "Lee, I didn't know that you wanted to give up your job and +work in Dallas, because the Rosenthals that I am working for, her +father owns the meatpacking house in Dallas, and she has told me that +he employs hundreds of people, and if ever any time that you are in +need, to go see her father, that she would be sure that he would give +you a job." + +So, gentlemen, this was on a Sunday. + +I made coffee, and the house was in order. There was nothing packed. + +Lee got paid on a Friday, from the Leslie Sheetmetal Works. + +Monday Lee and Marina packed their belongings and went to Dallas. + +The point I am bringing, is that Lee had no idea of quitting his job in +Fort Worth, because he was not packed. This was on a Sunday. And this +couple offered a job in Dallas. And their father, her grandfather, was +a Russian, and Lee went to Dallas on a Monday, and worked for the Arts +Graphic. I do not know--but you probably have that information. His +very first job there. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he was discharged by the Leslie people? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, he was not discharged by the Leslie people. He +just didn't show up. He was paid on a Friday, and that Monday he did +not show up for work, because he came to Dallas. + +The point I am bringing out is this job was also offered to Lee from a +Russian father. He had no idea of moving. There was nothing packed. + +Now, I understand that my son Robert helped him to move. And the way +I know this--I went there on a Tuesday, and the children had gone, +because they had left on a Monday. So then I went to Robert's home, and +Robert was at work. So I was all upset. They didn't tell me they were +leaving. + +I said to Veda. "Marina and Lee are no longer there, the house is +vacant." + +Mr. RANKIN. You spoke someone's name. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Veda, V-e-d-a. Robert's wife is Veda. I said they had to +move yesterday. + +She said "Robert helped them to move, and they gave us the food in the +refrigerator." + +I said it came up all of a sudden, and I told the story about the +couple being there. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the name of that couple? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. And I have not been able to find out. + +I have asked Mrs. Paine recently, and she said she does not remember. +And the night I was in Mrs. Paine's home, I asked Marina and Mrs. +Paine, and they did say a name. Marina would know the name of the +couple. But I do not have that information. + +Mr. RANKIN. And was he the owner of this business? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The father was the owner of the business. And this was an +American couple. And they did not speak Russian, either one. The father +was a Russian, or the grandfather--that owned this place of business. + +Mr. RANKIN. I think you said the grandfather before. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I said either the father or the grandfather. I cannot be +sure. + +It was the girl's father or grandfather, and not the boy. + +So I told my daughter-in-law about this, and she knew about it. + +So now here is something that I would like to have my daughter-in-law +as a witness. + +It has been stated in the paper that my son was giving Marina black +eyes and possibly had beat her. And this is by the Russian people. + +Now, living in this home in Fort Worth, I had gone by several times I +had a day off, and Marina was not at home. + +I said to her, "Marina, Mama come to see you yesterday. You no home." +She didn't answer. + +I said, "Marina, Mama come see you. You no home, Marina." + +"No. I go to lady's house to take English lessons." + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who she was speaking of? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know for a fact. But my son Robert will know. +And that is why it is important to call him. That is what I am trying +to say, Chief Justice Warren. These others will know this part of my +story, give you the facts. + +I am assuming it is Mr. Peter Gregory's wife that started these +lessons. But Marina was taking English lessons. + +Now, they lived at a corner house, and there is Carol Street, and +opposite Carol Street is a parking lot for Montgomery Ward. They live +approximately two blocks from Montgomery Ward. So I had gone by, as I +am stating, several times. You have to understand--this is just 6 or 7 +weeks that they are in this home. + +Mr. RANKIN. You say "they." I am sorry to interrupt. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Marina and Lee, in this home. + +Then Marina was not home. I could not understand where so fast that +they could have so many friends, that this Russian girl didn't speak +English and know her way about, could be gone all day long. That +worried me. + +So I sat in the car on Montgomery Ward's parking lot, where I could see +the house, because I wanted to see who Marina was going to come home +with. + +The door was open. I went in the house and no one was there. + +By this time, I was wondering how she could be gone all the time, being +a stranger in town. + +I sat in the car all day long. She didn't show up. + +Finally, I went home, had my supper, left my apartment, and on the way +going back to the house Lee was leaving Montgomery Ward. + +Now, they did not have a phone. I am just assuming--this is not a +fact--that Lee went to a telephone trying to locate his wife, because +I was coming from Montgomery Ward. He got in the car with me, and we +had about a block to go. I entered the home with Lee, and I said, "Lee +where is Marina?" Of course, I knew that she wasn't home, because I had +stayed in the car all day. + +He said, "Oh, I guess she is out with some friends." + +"Would you like me to fix your supper?" + +"No, she will probably be home in time to fix my supper?" + +So I left. I am not going to interfere in their married life. But I +did offer to fix him supper. And I went back to make sure Marina still +wasn't home. + +I walked in the home with my son. + +So approximately 2 days later--not approximately, but 2 days later I +went to the home and my son was reading, he read continuously--in the +living room, and Marina was in the bedroom, I could not see Marina. And +I said to Lee, "Tell Marina, I am here." + +Marina made no appearance. + +So I went into the bedroom, and she was nursing June with her head +down. And I started to talk. And she still had her head down. And I +came around to the front and I saw Marina with a black eye. + +Now, gentlemen, I don't think any man should hit his wife, as is stated +in the paper, or beat his wife. But I will say this. There may be times +that a woman needs to have a black eye. I am not condoning the act. +But I strongly am saying that this girl was not home. And this man was +working. And I saw, myself, that this man came home and didn't have any +food. This couple doesn't have a maid or anyone to give this working +man food. And I think it was her duty to be home and have his supper +ready. + +That is a little thing, maybe. But to me it shows the character of what +I am trying to bring out. + +And so there may have been reasons that the children fought. And I also +know that many, many couples fight, of our finest people, because I +made it clear before that I have worked in these very fine homes, and +have seen very fine people fight. I have seen a gentleman strike his +wife in front of me. We know this happens. It is not a nice thing to +do. But it happens in our finest homes. I am not condoning the act. +But I am telling you that there probably was reasons, we will say. The +woman has a black eye, and he is a louse--he gave her a black eye, +but we must consider why did he give her a black eye. We always must +consider the second aspect of the case. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did she take the baby with her when you looked---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she took--always the baby was with her. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask Marina how she got the black eye or anything +about it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, in the bedroom. I was shocked. + +"Mama--Lee." Just like that. + +So I went in the living room and I said, "Lee, what do you mean by +striking Marina?" + +He said, "Mother, that is our affair." + +And so that ended. I wasn't going to interfere any further. + +Now, this has been publicly stated by the Russian friends, that he +beat his wife. I don't know if he did beat his wife. I happened to see +the black eye. I know that he hit her and gave her a black eye. Marina +said so, and my son has said so. But how many times does this happen, I +don't know. + +But I am trying to point out that I don't approve of it. But I am +trying to point out that everything is not according to Hoyle, as we +say in our American way of life. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is there any other time that you recall that you saw that +she had bruises or a black eye? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; that is the only time. + +And then the children moved to Dallas. + +Now, this will end that part of the story. + +I have accepted and I have the public papers, in 1959, when Lee went +to Russia--I made a statement that as an individual I thought he had a +right to make up his own mind in the decision to do what he wanted. I +am of that nature, because, gentlemen, today or tomorrow I may decide +to go to Russia, I will go. We are taught that in America, that we have +the right to do what we want as an individual. So I publicly stated in +1959 that Lee had a right, if he wanted to live in that country. And I +think it was courage that he did so, instead of staying in America and +talking about America, and living here and downing his country. It took +courage to go and live where he wanted to live. + +I was criticized highly for making that statement. And it is published +in 1959--as far back as that. + +So I will get back now to when the children left. + +They did not tell me they had left. + +So I accepted the fact that my son Lee did not want me to know that he +was in Dallas. + +Why I accepted the fact is because of Lee's so-called defection. + +I have had it very hard, Mr. Rankin, and gentlemen--I have lost jobs, +I was in a position, if I was in a home and television was on, and +something political was on television, and the people commented, I +felt it was necessary to keep quiet, because of it. Because of the +defection I thought if I would express my views they might think I was +a Communist like my son was supposed to be. And in many a home I have +been in--after three or four days they would tell me my services were +not needed. + +I cannot say, sure it was because of Lee's defection. However, I feel +sure that it is, because I am a respected person, and a very good +nurse, as has been stated in the paper. And my jobs were gotten from +word of mouth. + +But you must understand that I deal with a lot of people. So naturally +it is natural that some of them would feel resentful against me because +of my son defecting to Russia and presumably being a Communist. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever find out where Marina was that day that you +tried to locate her? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, no sir, that ended that. + +So I respected my son's wish, since he didn't want to tell me where he +was in Dallas, that I would accept that fact. + +Now, gentlemen, this may seem hard that I accept these things. But +it is not. I am self-supporting. I have a life of my own. And if Lee +decides that that is the way he wants it, I am not going to grieve and +worry about it. I have to get my sleep in order to work. I have the +ability of accepting things, the ability granted me by the grace of +God, because of my difficulty in life. I have been a widow. I have had +many, many obstacles, and I have had to face them. And my faith gets +stronger. I do accept things. + +As now, I accept the death of my son. I don't brood over that. I have +that ability of doing that. + +So I just accepted the fact--when Lee gets ready to let me know where +he is, fine--up until that time, it is his privilege to do what he +wants. + +Now, that is the last contact I have had with Marina and Lee until +the news broke in Dallas that Lee was picked up because of the +assassination of President Kennedy. + +Mr. RANKIN. Tell us about this period you were talking about, when +he went to Dallas. Was that before or after the time he went to New +Orleans? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That was before the time, sir--he lived--from my +apartment, the Rotary Apartments, when Lee got the job he lived on +Mercedes Street from the end of July, I would say, or the beginning of +September, until October, when he left to go to Dallas. + +Mr. RANKIN. What year was that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That was in 1963. + +Mr. RANKIN. You mean '62? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry--1962. And that was the last I had seen of +Marina and Lee. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever find where they were in Dallas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I explained before that I made no attempt. I +thought when they get ready to let me know, that is fine. Up until +then, I had to do my own work and take care of myself. And I do respect +other people's privileges. If that is the way they want it, fine. + +When they get ready to let me know, I will welcome them. If not, I will +go about my own business. + +Mr. RANKIN. Had you learned they had gone to New Orleans? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I had not learned of that until after the assassination. I +knew nothing, I had no contact with them. + +So, then, the next thing we should start then would be the Dallas--the +assassination. + +Mr. RANKIN. Whatever you know. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I was on a case in a rest home, and I had a 3 to +11 shift. I was dressed, ready to go to work. I was watching--I am a +little ahead of my story. + +I watched the television in the morning before I was dressed. And +Richard Nixon was in Dallas, and he made a television appearance +approximately 2 hours before President Kennedy was to arrive in Dallas. +And, as a layman, I remember saying, "Well, the audacity of him, to +make this statement against President Kennedy just an hour or two +before his arrival in Dallas." + +And then I had my lunch, and I dressed, with my nurse's uniform on, to +go to work, for the 3 to 11 shift. And I have to leave home at 2:30. So +I had a little time to watch the Presidential procession. + +And while sitting on the sofa, the news came that the President was +shot. And there was a witness on television, a man and a little girl on +television. However, I could not continue to watch it. I had to report +to work. + +So I went in the car, and approximately seven blocks away I turned the +radio on in the car. I heard that Lee Harvey Oswald was picked up as a +suspect. + +I immediately turned the car around and came back home, got on the +telephone, called Acme Brick in Fort Worth, and asked where Robert was, +because he had been traveling, and I must get in touch with Robert +immediately, because his brother was picked up as a suspect in the +assassination. So they had Robert call me. + +Robert didn't know that Lee was picked up. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was this the day of the assassination? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, the day of the assassination, they picked Lee up. + +Mr. RANKIN. And 3 to 11--that is in the afternoon? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This was 2:30, because I was on my way to work, and I had +to be at work at 3 o'clock. + +Mr. RANKIN. Three in the afternoon is when you had to be at work? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and it was 2:30 I heard the news and went back +home. + +I had Acme Brick call Robert to give him the news, and Robert called +me, and he had not heard his brother was picked up. + +Now, Robert is in Denton. So I called the Star Telegram, and asked +that--if they could possibly have someone escort me to Dallas, because +I realized I could not drive to Dallas. And they did. They sent two men +to escort me to Dallas. + +The name of one is Bob Shieffer, the other name I will have for you +gentlemen. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who are those? Are those reporters? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Star Telegram reporters, sent by the Star Telegram editor +to escort me to Dallas. + +Now, upon arriving in Dallas, I did not ask--I did not want to talk to +the police. I asked specifically to talk to FBI agents. My wish was +granted, I was sent into a room. I have to backtrack my story. + +The policemen do not know I am here--"I want to talk to FBI agents." + +Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day is this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is approximately 3:30. So I am escorted into an +office, and two Brown FBI agents, they are brothers, I understand, and +there was another man that I do not know the name. + +Mr. RANKIN. By that you mean their names were Brown? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Their names were Brown. And I have the correct names, +also. But we were in this room, and I told them who I was. And I said, +"I want to talk with you gentlemen because I feel like my son is an +agent of the government, and for the security of my country, I don't +want this to get out." + +But, first, I said to them, "I want to talk to FBI agents from +Washington." + +"Mrs. Oswald, we are from Washington, we work with Washington." + +I said, "I understand you work with Washington. But I want officials +from Washington," and I believed they would be in town because of +protecting the President. + +I said, "I do not want local FBI men. What I have to say I want to say +to Washington men." + +Of course they wanted the news. They said, "Well, we work through +Washington." + +I said, "I know you do. But I would like Washington men." + +So I had no choice. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them why you thought he was an agent? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I am coming to this. + +So I said, "I have information that"--I told him who I was. + +I said, "For the security of my country, I want this kept perfectly +quiet until you investigate. I happen to know that the State Department +furnished the money for my son to return back to the United States, and +I don't know if that would be made public what that would involve, and +so please will you investigate this and keep this quiet." + +Of course that was news to them. + +They left me sitting in the office. + +And I also told them that Congressman Jim Wright knew about this. + +"You can be sure we will question Jim Wright." + +And I gave them the names of the four men I had talked with while in +Washington. + +Would you like those four names now? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. One is Mr. Boster, who was special counsel in charge of +Soviet affairs. + +One was Mr. Stanfield. I should know the names. + +Well, gentlemen, Mr. Doyle will see that I give you the names of these +men. I had it in a little card and carried it all these years from my +Washington trip and gave it to the FBI men to investigate. + +So they left me. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you say you understand that the State Department paid +your son's way back from the Soviet Union---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever learn that that was a loan? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have the document to state that they loaned Lee the +money to come back. + +Mr. RANKIN. But you didn't know that at the time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. But I stated--you see, I was worried about the +security of my country. I didn't know if the public would find out--how +they would take the news that the State Department loaned him the +money, since now he is a Marxist and an accused assassin. + +I was worried about my country. And I didn't want the public to know. I +wanted the FBI, not the police, to know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you know anything else that you told them about why you +thought he was an agent? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't tell them anything. But they questioned me, +started to question me. + +One of them said, "You know a lot about your son. When was the last +time you were in touch with him?" + +That wasn't the Browns. That was the other man. + +I said, "I have not seen my son in a year." + +He said sarcastically, "Now, Mrs. Oswald, are we to believe you have +not been in touch with your son in a year? You are a mother." + +I said, "Believe what you want. But I have not been in touch with my +son in a year. My son did not want me involved. He has kept me out of +his activities. That is the truth, God's truth, that I have not seen my +son in a year." + +And the gentleman left, and I did not see them after that. + +They sent the stenographer that was in the outer office to sit with me, +and she started to question me. + +I said, "Young lady, I am not going to be questioned. You may just as +well make up your mind that I am just going to sit here. What I want, +if you will relay--have these two Star Telegram men come in here, +please. I would like to ask them something." + +So they came in. And I said, "Bob, I have rights and I want to see Lee." + +Of course the men didn't answer. + +But I sat in the office approximately 2 or 3 hours alone, gentlemen, +with this woman who came in and out. + +I said, "If you think you are going to question me or get information +from me, you are not." + +And I sat in the office 2 or 3 hours. + +Every now and then I would walk up to the outer corridor and say to +whoever was there, "Now, listen, I am getting tired of this. I want to +see Lee." + +Mr. RANKIN. What office was this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The courthouse in Dallas. + +Mr. RANKIN. Whose office was it in? Do you know? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know. It was a private office that lead--for +instance, it would be like in the corner, a glass-enclosed office. And +then you could see the outer corridor where the stenographers and the +police and everybody was. + +Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whose office it was? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not. So I sat there approximately 3 hours. +And I never did get to see Lee. + +So at 5:30--then Robert came in. And he was questioned by the FBI. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you there when he was questioned? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. + +And I will state now emphatically that I have never been questioned by +the FBI or the Secret Service--never, gentlemen. If they can produce my +voice or anything, they can produce it. + +So then I was escorted into the office where Marina and Mrs. Paine was. +And, of course, I started crying right away, and hugged Marina. And +Marina gave me Rachel, whom I had never seen. I did not know I had a +second grandchild, until this very moment. So I started to cry. Marina +started to cry. And Mrs. Paine said, "Oh, Mrs. Oswald, I am so glad +to meet you. Marina has often expressed the desire to contact you, +especially when the baby was being born. But Lee didn't want her to." + +And I said, "Mrs. Paine, you spoke English. Why didn't you contact me?" + +She said Marina didn't know how to get in touch with me. + +She said, "Well, because of the way they lived, he lived in Dallas, +and came home to my home on weekends. I didn't feel like I wanted to +interfere." + +And she acted as--excuse me, gentlemen, but this is very, very +emotional. + +The CHAIRMAN. That is all right. + +Mrs. OSWALD. She acted as interpreter for Marina. We are in the +courthouse now, in the jailhouse. + +So her testimony, gentlemen, the testimony that the Dallas police have, +is the testimony of Mrs. Paine, that Marina assumed Lee had given her. + +Could we state now maybe it is not the correct testimony that Marina +gave--just one interpreter, and Marina's friend, is the testimony that +the Dallas police has. + +I have no way of knowing, and you have no way of knowing, gentlemen, +whether it is the correct testimony. + +So Mrs. Paine told me that she acted as interpreter. + +And I said, "I don't know what I am going to do. I want to stay in +Dallas and be near Lee, so that I can help with this situation as much +as possible." + +She said, "Mrs. Oswald, you are welcome in my home--if you care to +sleep on the sofa." + +I said, "Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine, I will accept your offer. I +will sleep on the floor in order to be near Dallas." + +So we left. We went to Mrs. Paine's home. + +I am going to say again I did not see my son. + +So--I had my nurse's uniform on for 3 days. + +Mr. RANKIN. What day was this at Mrs. Paine's? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This was the night of Friday, November 22d. We arrived +there approximately 6 o'clock. Upon entering the home, about 5 minutes +after I was in the home, there was a knock on the door. + +Now, this is a little vague. On the way leaving the courthouse we may +have been in the company of the two Life representatives. They may have +taken us to Mrs. Paine's home. I did not ask who was taking us to Mrs. +Paine's home, because I was holding my grandbaby and talking to Marina, +and sitting in the back of the car. And it didn't interest me at the +time how I was getting to Mrs. Paine's home. + +Why I am bringing this up was because after I was in her home, +about 5 minutes, there was a knock on the door, and these two Life +representatives entered the home. + +The name of the men, one is Allan Grant, and the other is Tommy +Thompson. + +And I was not introduced. + +Mr. RANKIN. Had you ever seen them before? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I had never seen them before. As I say, they could +have been the men driving the car. But I want you to understand at the +time I didn't notice that, because I was holding my new grandbaby, and +comforting my daughter-in-law, and talking to Mrs. Paine in the back +seat of the car. + +So Mrs. Paine sat on the floor. And she said to the photographer--he +had a camera in front of him--"Now, I hope you have good color film, +because I want good pictures." + +Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day was this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This was approximately 6:30. We had just arrived in Mrs. +Paine's home--I would say 6 and 7 o'clock, approximately, between that +time. We are home 5 minutes when they knocked on the door. + +Mrs. Paine immediately says, "Gentlemen, I hope you have colored film +so we will have some good pictures." + +I didn't know who they were. + +But then I knew they were newsmen, because of her statement and the +camera. + +So Tommy Thompson started to interview Mrs. Paine. He said, "Mrs. +Paine, tell me, are Marina and Lee separated, since Lee lives in +Dallas?" + +She said, "No, they are a happy family. Lee lives in Dallas because +of necessity. He works in Dallas, and this is Irving, and he has no +transportation, and he comes every weekend to see his family." + +"Well," he said, "What type family man is he?" + +She said, "A normal family man. He plays with his children. Last night +he fed June. He watches television and just normal things." + +She went on. + +So he said, "Mrs. Paine, can you tell me how Lee got, the money to"--I +am sorry--"can you tell me how Lee was able to return back to the +United States financially?" + +She said, "Oh, yes, he saved the money to come back to the United +States." + +Now, while this little episode went on, I was fuming, gentlemen, +because I didn't want this type of publicity. I thought it was uncalled +for, immediately after the assassination, and the consequent arrest of +my son. + +But I was in Mrs. Paine's home. + +Now I had an opportunity to be gracious. I spoke up and I said--I am +ahead of myself. + +She answered that he saved the money. + +I spoke up and I said, "Now, Mrs. Paine, I am sorry. I am in your home. +And I appreciate the fact that I am a guest in your home. But I will +not have you making statements that are incorrect. Because I happen +to know you have made an incorrect statement. To begin with, I do not +approve of this publicity. And if we are going to have the life story +with Life magazine"--by that time I knew what it was--"I would like to +get paid. Here is my daughter-in-law with two small children, and I, +myself, am penniless, and if we are going to give this information, I +believe we should get paid for it." + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you think Mrs. Paine was trying to get paid for it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Possibly. But I do know this. It was prearranged. That +is the point that is important. That after a few hours time, the Life +representatives were invited to her home, into her home, because she +expected them, you see. + +Mr. RANKIN. You think she arranged it, then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, possibly with Marina's help. + +I do not know. It was arranged--I am positive--the way they entered the +home. She invited them in, without even introducing me. And immediately +said she hoped they had color film. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were they talking to each other, Marina, and Mrs. Paine, +while you were there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they talked in Russian. And that is a difficult part. +I didn't know Russian. + +Then, with that, the Life representative got up and said, "Mrs. Oswald, +I will call my office and see what they think about an arrangement of +your life story." + +So he did call the office. He closed the door and called in private. +And nothing was said--in the living room. + +When I say nothing was said, it was between myself and the other +representative. Mrs. Paine was talking to my daughter-in-law in +Russian. I was talking to my daughter-in-law in English. It was a +regular general conversation, as far as I knew. + +He came out from the telephone conversation and said, no, that the +company would not allow him to pay for the story. What they would +do--they would pay our expenses while in Dallas, and our food and +expenses, hotel accommodation. + +So I told him that I would think about it. + +Now, they continued to hang around. And they were taking pictures +continuously, all the while this was going on--the photographer, Mr. +Allen was continuously taking pictures. I was awfully tired and upset. +I rolled my stockings down, and the picture is in Life Magazine. And he +stopped that. So I got up and said, "I am not having this invasion of +privacy. I realize that I am in Mrs. Paine's home. But you are taking +my picture without my consent, and a picture that I certainly don't +want made public." It is the worst--with me rolling my hose. I wanted +to get comfortable. + +He followed Marina around in the bedroom. She was undressing June. He +took pictures of everything. And Mrs. Paine was in her glory--I will +say this. Mrs. Paine was very happy all these pictures were taken. And +I had to go behind Marina to see that the photographers were not taking +her, and they were taking me. And it was just a regular--the home was +a living room and a hall and a bedroom and kitchen, and we were all +going around in circles. + +And the photographer was taking pictures, until finally I became +indignant, and said, "I have had it. Now, find out what accommodations +you can make for us, for my daughter-in-law and I so that we can be in +Dallas to help Lee, and let me know in the morning." + +So they left. + +However, about an hour later there was a telephone call to Mrs. Paine +from a Life representative. I know by her conversation who she was +talking to. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who was that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. One of the men--either Allen Grant or Tommy Thompson. + +And after the conversation, I said to her, "Was that one of the Life +representatives?" + +And she said, "Oh, yes, he just was a little upset about what happened." + +So I got no information there. + +The CHAIRMAN. Would you like to take a short recess, Mrs. Oswald? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I am getting thirsty. + +The CHAIRMAN. Suppose we do. We will take one for about 10 minutes. + +(Brief recess.) + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mrs. Oswald, you may +continue with your statement. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Now, we are in Mrs. Paine's home yet. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. This is on the day of the assassination? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--the 22d, Friday, the 22d. + +I am worried because Lee hasn't had an attorney. And I am talking about +that, and Mrs. Paine said, "Oh, don't worry about that. I am a member +of the Civil Liberties Union, and Lee will have an attorney, I can +assure you." + +I said to myself but when? Of course, I didn't want to push her, argue +with her. But the point was if she was a member of the Union, why +didn't she see Lee had an attorney then. So I wasn't too happy about +that. + +Now, gentlemen, this is some very important facts. + +My daughter-in-law spoke to Mrs. Paine in Russian. "Mamma," she says. +So she takes me into the bedroom and closes the door. She said, "Mamma, +I show you." She opened the closet, and in the closet was a lot of +books and papers. And she came out with a picture--a picture of Lee, +with a gun. + +It said, "To my daughter June"--written in English. + +I said, "Oh, Marina, police." I didn't think anything of the picture. + +Now, you must understand that I don't know what is going on on +television--I came from the jailhouse and everything, so I don't +know all the circumstances, what evidence they had against my son +by this time. I had no way of knowing. But I say to my daughter, +"To my daughter, June," anybody can own a rifle, to go hunting. You +yourself probably have a rifle. So I am not connecting this with the +assassination--"To my daughter, June." Because I would immediately say, +and I remember--I think my son is an agent all the time--no one is +going to be foolish enough if they mean to assassinate the President, +or even murder someone to take a picture of themselves with that rifle, +and leave that there for evidence. + +So, I didn't think a thing about it. And it says "To my daughter, +June." I said, "The police," meaning that if the police got that, they +would use that against my son, which would be a natural way to think. + +She says, "You take, Mamma." + +I said, "No." + +"Yes, Mamma, you take." + +I said, "No, Marina. Put back in the book." So she put the picture back +in the book. Which book it was, I do not know. + +So the next day, when we are at the courthouse--this is on +Saturday--she--we were sitting down, waiting to see Lee. She puts her +shoe down, she says, "Mamma, picture." She had the picture folded up in +her shoe. + +Now, I did not see that it was the picture, but I know that it was, +because she told me it was, and I could see it was folded up. It wasn't +open for me to see. I said, "Marina." Just like that. So Robert came +along and he says, "Robert" I said, "No, no Marina." I didn't want her +to tell Robert about the picture. Right there, you know. That was about +the picture. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever tell her to destroy the picture? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. Now, I have to go into this. I want to tell you about +destroying the picture. + +Now, that was in Mrs. Paine's home. + +I want to start to remember--because when we leave Mrs. Paine's home, +we go into another phase, where the picture comes in again. So I have +to tell the--unless you want to ask me specific questions. + +Mr. RANKIN. No, you go right ahead. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Mrs. Paine, in front of me, gave Marina $10. Now, Mrs. +Paine, when I said, after the representatives left--I said, "You know, +I do want to get paid for the story, because I am destitute, and here +is a girl with--her husband is going to be in jail, we will need money +for attorneys, with two babies." + +She said, "You don't have to worry about Marina. Marina will always +have a home with me, because Marina helps." + +Now, Mrs. Paine speaks Russian fluently. "She helps me with my Russian +language. She babysits for me and helps me with the housework, and you +never have to worry about Marina. She will always have a home with me." + +Now, Mr. and Mrs. Paine are separated. Mr. Paine does not live here. So +it is just the two women. + +So, Mrs. Paine didn't graciously do anything for Marina, as the paper +stated--that Lee never did pay Mrs. Paine for room or board. Mrs. Paine +owes them money. That is almost the kind of work that I do, or the +airline stewardesses do, serve food and everything. Marina was earning +her keep, and really should have had a salary for it--what I am trying +to say, gentlemen, Mrs. Paine had Marina there to help babysit with the +children, with her children--if she wanted to go running around and +everything. + +So actually she wasn't doing my son or Marina the favor that she claims +she was doing. + +But the point I am trying to stress is that she did tell me Marina +would never have to worry, because Marina would have a home with her. + +At this particular moment, I cannot remember anything of importance in +the house. Otherwise, about the picture I have stated. And Mrs. Paine +with the Life representative, and her saying that Lee would have an +attorney, and Mrs. Paine giving Marina a $10 bill. + +Oh, Marina told me, "Mamma, I have this money." It was money in an +envelope--in the bedroom, when she showed me the picture. I said, "How +much money, Marina." + +"About how much?" I asked her. + +"About $100 and some." + +Now, Mrs. Paine has stated to the Life representative that Lee and +Marina were saving his pay in order to have a home for themselves for +Christmas time, because they had never been in a home of their own at +Christmas time--in order to celebrate Christmas. So, the hundred and +some odd dollars isn't a big sum, considering that Lee paid $8 a week +room in Dallas--and it has been stated by the landlady that Lee ate +lunchmeat or fruit. And Lee was very, very thin when I saw him. And +Lee gave his salary to his wife in order to save to have this home for +Christmas. + +So, that is not a lot of money to have in the house--I would not think +so, because I believe Lee was earning about $50 a week. And let's say +he could live for about $10 or $12. And he gave the rest of the money +to his wife. + +And so I reported this money to the Secret Service while we were in Six +Flags--that Marina had the money. I wanted them to know. She showed me +the money. + +I cannot think now--I did think of the money after going back--but I +cannot think of anything at this particular moment that would be of any +benefit that happened in this house. + +Mr. RANKIN. In regard to the photograph, I will show you some +photographs. Maybe you can tell me whether they are the ones that you +are referring to. Here is Commission's Exhibit 134. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, that is not the picture. + +Mr. RANKIN. And 133, consists of two different pictures. + +Mrs. OSWALD.. No, sir, that is not the picture. He was holding the +rifle up, and it said, "To my daughter, June, with love." He was +holding the rifle up. + +Mr. RANKIN. By holding it up, you mean---- + +Mrs. OSWALD.. Like this. + +Mr. RANKIN. Crosswise, with both hands on the rifle? + +Mrs. OSWALD.. With both hands on the rifle. + +Mr. RANKIN. Above his head? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see these pictures, Exhibits 133 and 134? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I have never seen those pictures. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, you were going to tell us about some further +discussion of the picture you did see? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--all right. + +Now, so the next morning the two representatives of the Life Magazine, +Mr. Allen Grant and Mr. Tommy Thompson come by at 9 o'clock with a +woman, Russian interpreter, a doctor somebody. I have not been able to +find this woman. I have called the universities, thinking that she was +a language teacher, and I--maybe you have her name. But she is very, +very important to our story. + +And I do want to locate her, if possible. + +During the night, I had decided I was going to take up their offer, +because I would be besieged by reporters and everything. So why not go +with the Life representatives, and let them pay my room and board and +my daughter-in-law's. They came by at 9 o'clock, without calling, with +this Russian interpreter. So Marina was getting dressed and getting the +children dressed. He was taking pictures all the time. + +Mr. RANKIN. They came by where? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Mrs. Paine's home. And there was no hurry, though, +to leave the home, because Mrs. Paine was most anxious for the +Life representatives to talk to her and get these pictures and +everything--whether Marina has any part in this I don't know, because +they spoke Russian, and she didn't tell me about it. But I know Mrs. +Paine did. + +We left with the two Life representatives. They brought us to the Hotel +Adolphus in Dallas. I immediately upon entering the hotel picked up the +phone and called Captain Will Fritz, to see if Marina and I could see +Lee at the jailhouse. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who is he? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He is one of the big men in Dallas on this case. + +Mr. RANKIN. The Chief of Detectives, or something like that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And I called him from the hotel, and the man that +answered the phone said he would relay my message to him, that I wanted +to see if Marina and I could see Lee. I waited on the phone. He came +back and said, "Yes, Mrs. Oswald, Captain Fritz said you may see Lee at +12 o'clock today." + +We arrived at the Adolphus Hotel between 9:30 and 10:00. + +Mr. RANKIN. This was what day? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This was Saturday, November 23, the morning of Saturday, +November 23. + +While we were there, an FBI agent, Mr. Hart Odum entered the room with +another agent, and wanted Marina to accompany him to be questioned. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were these FBI agents? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; Mr. Hart Odum is an FBI agent. And I said, "No, +we are going to see Lee." We were all eating breakfast when he came in. +I said, "No, we have been promised to see Lee. She is not going with +you." + +So he said, "Well, will you tell Mrs. Oswald, please"--to the +interpreter, "I would like to question her and I would like her to come +with me to be questioned." + +I said, "It is no good. You don't need to tell the interpreter that, +because my daughter-in-law is not going with you. We have been promised +to see Lee. And besides Marina has testified, made her statement at the +courthouse yesterday, and any further statements that Marina will make +will be through counsel." + +Mr. Odum said to the interpreter, "Mrs. Oswald"--to the +interpreter--"will you tell Mrs. Oswald to decide what she would like +to do and not listen to her mother-in-law." + +I said, "It is no good to tell my daughter-in-law, because my +daughter-in-law is not leaving here with you, Mr. Odum, without +counsel." + +And I had been telling Marina, "No, no." + +She said, "I do, Mamma," she kept saying. + +Just then my son, Robert, entered the room, and Mr. Odum said, "Robert, +we would like to take Marina and question her." + +He said, "No, I am sorry, we are going to try to get lawyers for both +she and Lee." + +So he left. + +We went to the courthouse and we sat and sat, and while at the +courthouse my son, Robert, was being interviewed by--I don't know +whether it was Secret Service or FBI agents--in a glass enclosure. We +were sitting--an office, a glass enclosed office. We were sitting on +the bench right there. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where was this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In the Dallas courthouse, on Saturday. + +So we waited quite a while. One of the men came by and said "I am sorry +that we are going to be delayed in letting you see Lee, but we have +picked up another suspect." + +I said, to Marina, "Oh, Marina, good, another man they think maybe +shoot Kennedy." + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask anything about who this suspect was? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. He just give the information why we +would be delayed. We sat out there quite a while. The police were very +nice. They helped us about the baby. We went into another room for +privacy, for Marina to nurse Rachel. It was 2 or 3 hours before we got +to see Lee. We went upstairs and were allowed to see Lee. This was in +the jail--the same place I had been from the very beginning, and we +were taken upstairs. And by the way, they only issued a pass for Marina +and myself, and not for Robert. And Robert was very put out, because he +thought he was also going to see his brother. Whether Robert saw his +brother or not, I do not know, Mr. Rankin. + +Mr. RANKIN. About what time of day was this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Just a minute now. We arrived there at 12 o'clock. This +would be about 4 or 4:30 in the afternoon, before we got to see Lee. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was anyone else present when he saw you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. Marina and I were escorted back of the door where +they had an enclosure and telephones. So Marina got on the telephone +and talked to Lee in Russian. That is my handicap. I don't know what +was said. And Lee seemed very severely composed and assured. He was +well-beaten up. He had black eyes, and his face was all bruised and +everything. But he was very calm. He smiled with his wife, and talked +with her, and then I got on the phone and I said, "Honey, you are so +bruised up, your face. What are they doing?" + +He said, "Mother, don't worry. I got that in a scuffle." + +Now, my son would not tell me they had abused him. That was a boy's +way to his mother--if he was abused, and it was shown in the paper his +black eyes--he wouldn't tell how he got that. He said that was done in +the scuffle. So I talked and said, "Is there anything I can do to help +you?" + +He said, "No, Mother, everything is fine. I know my rights, and I +will have an attorney. I have already requested to get in touch with +Attorney Abt, I think is the name. Don't worry about a thing." + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him about another suspect? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. That was my entire conversation to him. + +Gentlemen, you must realize this. I had heard over the television my +son say, "I did not do it. I did not do it." + +And a million of the other people had heard him. I say this. As a +mother--I heard my son say this. But also as a citizen, if I had heard +another man say, I didn't do it, I will have to believe that man, +because he hasn't been--hasn't had the opportunity to present his side +of the case. So here is my son. When I saw him people had said, "Did +you ask him if he did it?" + +No, sir. I think by now you know my temperament, gentlemen. I would not +insult my son and ask him if he shot at President Kennedy. Why? Because +I myself heard him say, "I didn't do it, I didn't do it." + +So, that was enough for me, I would not ask that question. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who told you that there was--they had found another suspect? + +Mrs. OSWALD. One of the officers. That, sir, I don't know. He just +walked in real fast while we were sitting down and said they had picked +up another suspect, and it was in the paper that they had picked +up another suspect at that particular time, which would have been +approximately 1 o'clock that day. + +Mr. RANKIN. But you don't remember the officer's name? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, that is all he said and he left. He was just +relaying why we would be delayed. But it was also published. I do not +have the paper or the information. But I do know from the reporters, +when I told my story, that part to them--they said that substantiates +the newspaper story that they did pick up a suspect at that time. + +Mr. RANKIN. About how long did you and Marina spend there with your son? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I would say I spent about 3 or 4 minutes on the telephone, +and then Marina came back to the telephone and talked with Lee. So we +left. So Marina started crying. Marina says, "Mamma, I tell Lee I love +Lee and Lee says he love me very much. And Lee tell me to make sure I +buy shoes for June." + +Now, here is a man that is accused of the murder of a President. +This is the next day, or let's say about 24 hours that he has been +questioned. His composure is good. And he is thinking about his young +daughter needing shoes. + +Now, June was wearing shoes belonging to Mrs. Paine's little girl, +Marina told me--they were little red tennis shoes, and the top was +worn. They were clean, and the canvas was showing by the toe part, like +children wear out their toes. + +I ask you this, gentlemen. If Marina had a hundred and some odd dollars +in the house, why is it necessary that my son has to tell her at the +jailhouse, remind her to buy shoes for his baby, for their child? Just +a few dollars out of that hundred and some odd dollars would have +bought shoes for this particular child. + +Another way to look at this, as I stated previously--that the boy +is concerned about shoes for his baby, and he is in this awful +predicament. So he must feel innocent, or sure that everything is going +to be all right, as he told me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, in this telephone conversation, when you talked to +your son, can you explain a little bit to the Commission how that is? +Was your son on the other side of a wall or something? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. My son was on the other side of the wall, and +then back of the wall was a door with a peephole, where an officer was. + +Now, we are going to come from the door, with the peephole and the +officer, to my son. Then a glass partition and then glass partitions +like telephone booths. But not really inclosed--just a little +separation. + +Mr. RANKIN. So you could not reach in there and take your son's hand? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. We talked by telephone. + +Mr. RANKIN. And he had a telephone on his side, and---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. And he had a telephone. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you talked back and forth? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Back and forth, that is right. That is the way we talked. +And the boy was badly beat up. I have proof in the papers--his face, +black eyes, all scratched up, his neck was scratched. He was badly +beat up. But he assured me they were not mistreating him, that he got +some of the bruises in the scuffle. As I say, the boy, if he was being +mistreated, would not tell his mother that. + +Mr. RANKIN. And whatever Marina said to him was in Russian, and you +didn't understand it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not understand. But I would say this, it +seemed to be just an ordinary pleasant conversation. He was smiling. +And she told me he said he loved her very much, she said she loved him, +and told about buying the shoes for the baby. That is all she said. She +did not tell me any other part of the conversation. And they talked +quite a while. She talked with him twice. She talked with him the first +time. I got on the phone. Then she talked to him again. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did it sound like there was any dispute or argument? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. It was a pleasant conversation. But she did not +volunteer to tell me what was said, and I did not ask her what was said. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you do after that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. So then after that we went back to the Adolphus Hotel. And +upon arriving at the hotel--I am a little ahead of my story. + +The police and the detectives at the Dallas jail were most courteous +to Marina and I. There were hundreds of reporters out in the corridor. +And we were getting ready to leave, so they said that they would take +us down the back way--incidentally, the same place where my son was +shot. And they had arranged for two to go down and to get a car and to +bring into this basement, and take us down the back elevator, and try +to avoid the reporters. And there were approximately six or seven in +the elevator. When we got down there, there were just a few reporters, +and they went way out of their way to elude any reporters. We were +at the Adolphus Hotel as I explained to you. And instead of from the +jail going straight to the Adolphus Hotel, they drove around 20 or 25 +minutes time in circles in order to lose anybody who might be following +Marina and I. + +So, as we got to the floor of the Adolphus Hotel, we knocked on +the door where we were, and no one answered. We were with two men. +Immediately around the corner comes Mr. Tommy Thompson, the Life +representative. + +Mr. RANKIN. What two men were you with? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Two men from the Dallas courthouse. + +Mr. RANKIN. From the police? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, from the police. + +So Mr. Tommy Thompson came and they asked for his credentials. I had +never even--as thorough as I am trying to be--I am trying to tell you +there are some things I don't know because of the confusion--I didn't +ask for the credentials. I could have been with anybody. I just assumed +they were Life representatives. I had not asked. But these Dallas +detectives or police, in plain clothes, asked Mr. Tommy Thompson for +his credentials, and then left us in his care again. + +Immediately Mr. Tommy Thompson said, "Mrs. Oswald, what do you plan to +do now?" + +The interpreter was gone, and so was the other representative, Mr. +Allen Grant. + +I said, "Well, the arrangement was that we were going to stay here in +the hotel for a few days, and you were going to pay expenses." + +He said, "But you have not given us any facts." + +They were not interested--and to me it seems very strange that they +were not interested in my conversation at the jail with my son. They +did not even ask if we saw Lee. Yet they knew we left the Adolphus +Hotel in order to go see Lee. But they did not even ask if we saw Lee. +And I have often wondered about that. + +So when I told him that we expected to stay there, he said, "Well, Mrs. +Oswald, the reporters will be coming in flocks, they know where you +are. Just a minute." + +He got on the telephone. Mr. Allen Grant--they had a Life--the Life +representatives had a room on the ninth floor where they had a lot of +men working on this case, and we were on the 11th, I believe. So Mr. +Allen Grant came down from the ninth floor with another man--I do not +know his name--because the baby's diapers had to be changed and things +of this sort. He said, "Mrs. Oswald"--they left. Tommy Thompson said, +"Mrs. Oswald, what we are going to do is get you on the outskirts of +town, so the reporters won't know where you are, and here is some money +for your expenses in case you need anything." + +Well, I took the bill, and I put it in my uniform pocket without +looking at it. That may sound strange to you gentlemen, but this is +confusion. I knew it was money, and I just put it in my uniform pocket. + +So Mr. Allen Grant escorted my daughter-in-law and I out of the hotel, +the Adolphus Hotel, and took us to the Executive Inn, which is on the +outskirts of Dallas. We sat in the car. He went in and came out, then, +and said, "Mrs. Oswald, I have arranged for you all to stay here for +2 or 3 days. I have to be back in San Francisco. Anything you want +you have your cash that Mr. Tommy Thompson gave you. And he will be in +touch with you." + +Well, I didn't think too much of it. He escorted us with a porter up to +our room. + +We had two beautiful suites--two, not one--completed rooms and baths, +adjoining, at the Executive Inn. And that was the last time I had seen +either representative. I was stranded with a Russian girl and two +babies. I didn't realize in the beginning. But then it was time for +food, and I had to order food. I told Marina to stay aside and that I +would let the man in. She stayed in her room. I let this man in with +the food, and then I became uneasy, that he might know who we were is +what I was uneasy about, because I didn't realize the danger actually +Marina and I were in. + +I sensed we were alone. And there I was with a Russian girl. And I +didn't want anybody to know who we were, because I knew my son had been +picked up. + +So this is where the picture comes in. + +While there, Marina--there is an ashtray on the dressing table. And +Marina comes with bits of paper, and puts them in the ashtray and +strikes a match to it. And this is the picture of the gun that Marina +tore up into bits of paper, and struck a match to it. + +Now, that didn't burn completely, because it was heavy--not +cardboard--what is the name for it--a photographic picture. So the +match didn't take it completely. + +Mr. RANKIN. Had you said anything to her about burning it before that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. The last time I had seen the picture was in +Marina's shoe when she was trying to tell me that the picture was +in her shoe. I state here now that Marina meant for me to have that +picture, from the very beginning, in Mrs. Paine's home. She said--I +testified before--"Mamma, you keep picture." + +And then she showed it to me in the courthouse. And when I refused it, +then she decided to get rid of the picture. + +She tore up the picture and struck a match to it. Then I took it and +flushed it down the toilet. + +Mr. RANKIN. And what time was this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This--now, just a minute, gentlemen, because this I know +is very important to me and to you, too. + +We had been in the jail. This was an evening. Well, this, then, would +be approximately 5:30 or 6 in the evening. + +Mr. RANKIN. What day? + +Mrs. OSWALD. On Saturday, November 23. Now, I flushed the torn bits and +the half-burned thing down the commode. And nothing was said. There was +nothing said. + +Mr. RANKIN. That was at the Executive Inn? + +Mrs. OSWALD. At the Executive Inn. + +Now, Mr. Hart Odum, the same FBI agent, that insisted upon my +daughter-in-law going with him from the Adolphus Hotel, knocked on the +door at the Executive Inn. I had had my robe and slippers on, and I +pushed the curtain aside when he knocked. He said, "This is Mr. Odum." + +So, I opened the door. This is very important. I would like to not talk +about it. I would like to show you what I did. This is so important. + +I opened the door just a little, because I had the robe off and I +didn't want anybody to come in. The door is just ajar. I am going to +take my shoes off, gentlemen, because I have this worked out. This is +my height. He said, "Mrs. Oswald, we would like to see Marina." + +I said, "Mr. Odum, I stated yesterday you are not going to see Marina. +We are awful tired." + +"Well, we just want to ask her one question." + +"Mr. Odum, I am not calling my daughter. As a matter of fact, she is +taking a bath." + +She wasn't. + +He said, "Mrs. Oswald, I would like to ask you a question." + +I said, "Yes, sir." The door is ajar. This is my height. I wear +bifocals, which enlarges things. And in his hand--his hand is bigger +than mine--in the cup of his hand, like this, is a picture. And the +two corners are torn off the picture. This is a very glossy black and +white picture of a man's face and shoulder. + +Now, Mr. Odum wasn't too tall. I need somebody else. Mr. Odum's +hand with the picture--what I am trying to say--he is facing this +way--showing me. So my eyes are looking straight at the picture. And +I have nothing else to see but this hand and the picture, because +the door is ajar. And there is nothing on the picture but a face and +shoulders. There is no background or anything. So I can identify this +picture amongst millions of pictures, I am so sure of it. It was a +glossy black and white picture. So I said, "No, sir, believe me. I have +never seen this picture in my life." + +With that, he went off. + +There was another man with him. + +About an hour later the telephone rang, and it was Mrs. Paine. She +said, "Mrs. Oswald, Lee called and he was very upset because Marina +was not with me, and he asked me to get a lawyer for him, a Mr. Abt. I +would like to talk to Marina." + +So I put Marina on the telephone, and Marina said about two or three +words. + +So when she got off the telephone, I said,--Now, Marina talks in +Russian, gentlemen. I said, "Marina, Mrs. Paine told me that Lee called +and you were not home at Mrs. Paine, and Lee tells Mrs. Paine to get a +lawyer." + +Marina didn't answer. + +And I then sensed--well, now, why isn't she answering me? This is very +peculiar. + +And there was no more said about that conversation. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask her about this lawyer? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Ask Marina? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. There was no more said about this conversation. + +Mr. RANKIN. You didn't say anything about Mr. Abt to her then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. But here is the point to this whole thing. + +The FBI agent would have to know where we were, and Mrs. Paine would +have to know where we were, because of these two Life representatives, +who, I am assuming, probably went back to Mrs. Paine's home in order to +get more information. And she--they would have told her where we were, +because no one knew where we were. This girl and I had no protection +or anything. We were sent out there with this Mr. Allen Grant, the +representative. And no one knew who we were. And Mr. Hart Odum would +have to know where we were through Mrs. Paine, which is a normal +procedure, let's say. He might have gone to Mrs. Paine's home looking +for Marina there, and Mrs. Paine might have told him we were at the +Executive Inn. I will grant that. + +But the point I am going to make is that the picture was tried to be +shown to Marina before the telephone conversation. + +Now, if there are any questions why I say that, I would be happy to +answer. + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes--why do you say that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Because they wanted Marina---- + +Mr. DULLES. Could we get what picture this is? Is that the picture held +in the hand? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--the picture that is held in the hand, that the +FBI agent, Mr. Hart Odum showed me. + +Mr. RANKIN. I understand you didn't recognize who the picture was at +all. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I told Mr. Hart Odum I had never seen the man before, +"Believe me, sir," and he left. + +So the picture was shown--was tried--had tried to be shown to my +daughter-in-law, but they were not successful. + +So then they received--Marina receives a telephone call. + +Now, I am under the impression, since I know it was Mr. Jack Ruby's +picture I saw--at the time I didn't. + +Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Because I have seen his picture in the paper. Now I know +it is Mr. Jack Ruby. + +I am under the impression that Marina was threatened---- + +Mr. RANKIN. What was the date now? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is Saturday, November 23d. This is approximately 6:30 +in the evening, that the FBI agent came. And the telephone call was +later. + +Now, I have no way of knowing whether Lee had permission to use the +telephone. Remember, Lee is in jail. + +Mr. RANKIN. About what time do you think the telephone call was? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I would say it was about 7:30, 8 o'clock in the night. + +Mr. RANKIN. That was still on Saturday night? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, still on Saturday night at the Executive Inn. +And that was after the picture was shown to me--she received this +telephone call, and became very silent. + +And the next day my son was shot. + +Now, it is now that I have done investigation of this case that I +believe that the picture was meant for Marina to see, meant for Marina +to see. + +Mr. RANKIN. Why do you think that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Because now it has been proven that Jack Ruby killed my +son. And I think there is a connection there. Because Marina did not +tell me about her conversation. And you men hold the answer whether Lee +used the telephone from the jailhouse. I don't know that. + +Mr. RANKIN. You base that on just your own conclusion that you arrive +at now, do you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--because of the FBI agent, Mr. Hart Odum, insistence +on taking my daughter-in-law--and he being the same agent that came +and showed the picture. And Mr. Ruby being the man that shot Lee--yes, +these are definite conclusions. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is what you base it on? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is what I base it on. + +Mr. DULLES. Do I understand correctly that Marina did not see the +picture at any time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. But they tried awfully hard for +Marina to see the picture. + +Mr. RANKIN. And when they could not show it to her---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. They showed it to me--yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever seen that picture since? + +Mrs. OSWALD. On a Wednesday--Lee was shot on a Sunday--neither Marina +nor I knew how he was shot. They kept it from us. You have to visualize +this. + +We were at the Six Flags with approximately 18 to 20 FBI agents, Secret +Service men running in and out, a woman with a Russian girl and two +sick babies, and the girl and I do not know what is going on. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you had gotten over to the Six Flags, you must have +skipped something there--you were in the Executive Inn before. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I was going to make a point about letting you know +why I didn't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. All right. + +Mrs. OSWALD. All right--let's go back to the Executive Inn. + +So that night I was very upset and very worried. I realized that we +were there alone. And we were not going to go in town, into Dallas. +I wasn't going to take this Russian girl and the two babies. And the +babies were all chapped. We had no diapers. We were not prepared for +this. And it was hectic, gentlemen. + +So all night long I am wondering how can I get in touch with Robert, +what can I do. + +And I was a little suspicious of Mrs. Paine. I was suspicious of Mrs. +Paine from the time I entered her home. + +Mr. RANKIN. Had you found out how much money the Life man gave you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, not even yet. + +Mr. RANKIN. All right. + +Mrs. OSWALD. So I signed for the food. I called the operator and I +asked the operator what name the room was registered under. She said, +"Well, this is an unusual request. Don't you know what room--what +name?" + +I said, "Frankly, I don't. We are three couples. I don't know which +name they used." + +So she told me that the room was registered under Mrs. Allen Grant, +which is the name of the Life representative. So I charged and signed. +And they would have that for proof--Mrs. Allen Grant, on the food. + +Mr. RANKIN. Why did you say three couples? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I just said that to the operator, because I had to give +her a reason why I didn't know which name the room was registered under. + +So I just wanted to elaborate a little bit--let her know. I didn't want +to give my name. Because I was by this time a little concerned about +the situation. + +During the night I thought--"We are in a position here, I am in a +position with a Russian girl and two babies, and I just don't know what +to do." + +I had no contact with Robert. Robert was trying to get an attorney. And +I didn't know if Robert knew where we were. And I did not want to call +Mrs. Paine. I wanted to stay clear of Mrs. Paine. + +So this is a very unusual coincidence. + +Now, I have to go back a little bit. But, believe me, gentlemen, the +story will get together for you to understand. + +About 1 month prior to this, there was an ad in a Fort Worth paper that +the public library was going to have language lessons, and one was +Russian classes. + +Well, I then, as I told you--I was employed for the 3 to 11 shift. And +I was getting a day off. And this would have been a steady job because +this woman was not that sick, just an invalid. + +So I decided on my day off I wanted to do something. So I decided I +would call up about it, and on my day off--make Tuesday my day off and +take up Russian in case--because I had always hoped in my heart that +Marina and Lee would contact me some day. After all, I am a mother +first. + +So I went to the library. And Mr. Peter Gregory was the instructor. + +Now, you must remember--I did not know that he knew Marina and Lee. +This is public notice for the Russian language. + +So Mr. Peter Gregory is the instructor. + +I went to the second class. My car broke down just one block from the +library, and I had to have it towed, and I went to the class. And Mr. +Peter Gregory was there, and several of the women waiting for his +classes to start. I said I don't imagine I will learn anything, because +my car has broken down and I am pretty upset. And Mr. Gregory said, +"Where do you live, Mrs. Oswald? Maybe I could help you and take you +home." And the other couple said, "We would be happy." + +And I said I live in Arlington Heights. And he happens to live about 10 +blocks away. + +Now, I have to go back. + +The point I am going to make is this: Mr. Peter Gregory is the engineer +who knew my son Robert, who was friends with Lee and Marina. Yet when +I registered for a class, and the librarian had come back down before +the class, and read off the names of the people that were going to take +the Spanish lesson, isn't it peculiar that Mr. Gregory did not remember +me as the mother of Lee--didn't acknowledge me as the mother of Lee? I +find that very peculiar. + +Even the second lesson, there was no acknowledgment. + +So I went home with Mr. Peter Gregory. And there was still no +acknowledgment. + +So we were talking about the Russian language, that is is very hard to +learn. And I said, "I am sure I will never master it." And I thought +I think I will tell him why I want to take lessons is because of my +Russian daughter-in-law, and my son speaks Russian. But I didn't do it. + +But I am going to point out again that Mr. Gregory did not acknowledge +me. + +I am going to give and take. Maybe he didn't connect me. But it would +seem very odd--Mrs. Marguerite Oswald was the name--that he didn't +connect as Marina's mother-in-law and Lee's mother, when he was such a +friend with them. + +Mr. RANKIN. I am not clear as to what lessons you were taking. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Russian lessons at the public library in Fort Worth, Tex., +and Mr. Gregory was the teacher. + +Mr. RANKIN. You said something about Spanish. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, did I? I am sorry. No, sir, the Russian language. + +The CHAIRMAN. What days were these? + +Mr. RANKIN. What days were these that you talked to Mr. Gregory? + +Mrs. OSWALD. You mean the Russian language? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I do not have this information. But I can get it for you +from the public library, because there was a public notice in the paper. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us approximately? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was just right before the assassination. I had +taken two lessons. Yes, I had taken two lessons, and then I didn't go +for the third lesson, because this was on a Friday--the lessons were on +a Tuesday. So I had taken two lessons, the two Tuesdays prior to the +assassination. + +Mr. RANKIN. I see. + +So it would be around a little over 3 weeks before the assassination? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Two Tuesdays before, and then my next lesson +would have been the Tuesday after the Friday of the assassination. + +Yes, sir, that is the time. + +So then I thought of Mr. Gregory. + +Now, believe me, gentlemen--and I will swear again, if you want me +to--nothing was said about Mr. Gregory and Marina being friends. But I +do have a guardian angel. And, as I go along, some of the things I know +have been from this guardian angel. + +This was just a coincidence. + +I thought of calling Mr. Peter Gregory. I have no friends in Fort +Worth. I never--I live a very lonely life. I am not lonely. But I live +to myself. I am kept very busy. I had my work, 24 hour duty. So really +I have no friends. And because of Lee's defection, I didn't make any +new friends. + +So I am racking my mind who can I call for help. And I think of Mr. +Peter Gregory. So I call Mr. Peter Gregory at 6:30 in the morning, +Sunday, the 24th--Sunday morning the 24th. + +And I didn't want the hotel operator to know who I was. So I gave a +fictitious name. He said, "I am sorry,"--I said, "I can't tell you who +I am, Mr. Gregory." + +I am ahead of my story. + +Marina, when I said, "Marina, we need help, honey. I am going to call a +Mr. Gregory." + +And I told her about me taking Russian lessons. + +"Oh, Mama, I know Mr. Gregory, Lee know Mr. Gregory, the man at the +library that gives Russian lessons." + +So I find that very much of a coincidence. + +So I called Mr. Gregory. I said, "Mr. Gregory, I won't say who I am, +but you know my son and you know my daughter-in-law, and I am in +trouble, sir. I am over here." + +He said, "I am sorry, but I won't talk to anybody I don't know." + +Mr. RANKIN. What name did you give him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't give him any name. + +He said, "I am sorry, but I won't talk to anyone I don't know." + +And I said again, "Well, you know my son real well." + +He said, "Oh, you are Mrs. Oswald." + +I said, "Yes sir, this is Mrs. Oswald. We are at the Executive Inn +in Dallas, stranded. And do you know of anyone who would give my +daughter-in-law and I a home, and put us up for the time that this is +going on, so we can be near Lee at the courthouse? I need help. Mr. +Gregory." + +He said, "Mrs. Oswald, what is your room number? I will help you. Hold +still. Help will be coming." + +And so that was the end of my conversation with Mr. Gregory. + +At 11:30 Sunday, November 23d, my son Robert and Mr. Gregory came to +the Executive Inn, all excited. We had diapers strung all over the +place. My uniform was washed. I had no clothes with me. + +I went with the uniform. + +"Hurry up, we have got to get you out of here." + +I am not one to be told what to do, and you gentlemen know that by this +time. I said, "What's your hurry? We have the diapers and all. I want +to tell you what happened." + +"Mother, Mother stop talking. We have to get you out of here." + +Mr. Gregory said, "Mrs. Oswald, will you listen and get things +together. We have to get you out of here." + +I said, "That is all we have been doing since yesterday, running from +one place to the other. Give us just a minute. We are coming, but we +have to pack things." + +"Hurry up." + +I said, "I want you to know how we got here. I was shown a picture of a +man last night. And Mrs. Paine called and said that Lee called." + +I told him exactly. + +So Mr. Gregory and Robert knew about the things I told you. I told him +that while I am gathering up the things. + +"Mrs. Oswald, we will talk later. We have to get you out of here." + +I have found out since that my son was shot. But they did not tell us. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a television in this room? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Now, here is another Godsend. We watched the television, Marina and +I. She watched more than I did. We were very busy, Mr. Rankin. The +babies had diarrhea and everything. I was very busy with the babies and +the Russian girl. And just like at the end of the Six Flags, we were +just getting snatches of it. But Marina wanted to know, "Mama, I want +see Lee." She was hoping Lee would come on the picture, like he did. +So this morning, Sunday morning, I said, "Oh, honey, let's turn the +television off. The same thing over and over." + +And I turned the television off. So Marina and I did not see what +happened to my son. + +We had the television off. + +So we did not know. + +But frantically Robert and Mr. Gregory kept insisting that we pack and +run. + +So when we get downstairs, here was Secret Service men all over. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, before you leave that, what did Robert say about the +story about the picture, when you told him that? Did he say anything? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. He and Mr. Gregory both didn't want to listen to me. I +told them, but they didn't want to hear my story. They wanted to get us +out of here. + +Mr. RANKIN. They didn't say anything about it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, not that I can recall. And I don't believe they +did. They didn't want to hear what I had to say. They kept fussing at +me and saying "Mother, stop talking. Hurry up, we have got to get you +out of here." + +I kept saying, "All we have been doing is run from one place to the +other. The diapers are wet." + +I was kind of having my way about this. + +So when we get downstairs, there is Secret Service all around. + +I am ahead of my story. + +Robert went downstairs to pay the bill, and that is when I gave Robert +the money, and it was a $50 bill that the Life representative had given +to me. They gave me some money. I took it out---- + +Mr. RANKIN. That is the first time you looked at it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The first time I looked at it, sir. I charged the food, +and I had no need for money. Wait a minute--I am wrong. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Mrs. Oswald--didn't you say you had washed your +uniform? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Representative FORD. When you washed your uniform, didn't you---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Just a minute, if you let me explain. I just said I was +wrong. The first time--it was Puerto Rican that brought the dinner in. +We needed baby lotion for the baby. And then I took the bill out and +I saw it was a $50 bill, because he went to the drug store--I gave +him the $50 bill, this Puerto Rican, that brought the food in--the +first food we had--to go to the drug store and pay for the necessities +that Marina and I needed--really it was for the baby, the lotion and +everything. And he came back and the drug store was closed--it was on a +Sunday. And so I did know about the $50 bill before this time. + +And then when Robert came, I gave Robert the $50 bill and he went +downstairs to pay the bill. + +Now, the representatives had not paid the bill. Robert used the $50 to +pay the bill. The bill was not paid. So we were really stranded. Those +men left two women stranded. + +Now, let me see if there is anything I have forgotten. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where did you put the $50 after the Puerto Rican brought it +back? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In my uniform pocket, because that was all the clothes I +had. I kept it in my pocket. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you washed your uniform---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. I naturally took it out of my pocket to wash my uniform, +because I stated I gave Robert the $50 bill to pay the hotel. But that +was all the clothes I had. You have to visualize that all of this is +really rush business. We are doing all this in a hurry. + +So I didn't even put it in my pocketbook. And I would not be the type +to put it in my pocketbook, because it is a $50 bill and all the money +I have to get out of the hotel--I don't know if I am going to get +help--so I want to keep it on my person, just like I keep my important +papers right now on my person. + +I took it out of my pocket to wash the uniform, I know. This can be +proven by the bellhop who brought the food. And he went to the drug +store, and the drug store was closed on Sunday. And we did not get the +lotion. And I gave him the $50 bill to buy the things with. + +Mr. RANKIN. And then after you paid the bill there---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Robert paid the bill. + +Mr. RANKIN. What happened next? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing was said about the bill. I didn't know then that +the representatives had not paid the bill. Robert took the $50 and +checked us out. Then the Secret Service---- + +Mr. DULLES. Could we have the time when you checked out? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--approximately 11:30 to 12 o'clock, on Sunday. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us the amount of the bill? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Since then I have called Robert and Robert said the +amount of the bill was 40-some-odd dollars--about $48, I believe. That +is what Robert told me. I have no way of knowing, otherwise than what +Robert told me. + +And I would think so. If I remember correctly the rooms were $17.50. I +told you before that they put us in exclusive suites, and two. And the +rooms were $17.50. And we had some meals. So that would make it about +40-some-odd dollars. + +Mr. RANKIN. And then after Robert checked you out, what happened? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Then Robert got in a car with Secret Service, and then +Marina and I and Mr. Gregory were in another car, with two Secret +Service agents in the front. + +Mr. RANKIN. And did you go someplace? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Here comes me again. They wanted to take us--as soon as +we got in the car Mr. Gregory says, "We are taking you to Robert's +mother-in-law's house." + +Now, they live out of Boyd, Tex., in the country. Boyd, Tex., is a +little bit of country town. But they live in a little farm house. They +are dairy people--Robert's in-laws. And they wanted to take us there, +which would have been approximately 45 miles from Dallas. + +And I said, "No, you are not taking me out in the sticks, in the +country. I want to be in Dallas where I can help Lee." + +"Well, for security reasons, this is the best place. Nobody would ever +find it." + +I said, "Security reasons? You can give security for me in a hotel room +in town. I am not going out in this little country town. I want to be +in Dallas where I can help Lee." + +And so I am not being well liked, because all the arrangements was +made, that we were going to go to this little farm house. But I would +not go. + +I could not survive if I was 40 or 50 miles away and my son was picked +up as a murderer. I had to be right there in Dallas. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, this was after---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. When they left the Executive Inn, when we got in the car. + +Mr. RANKIN. And this was after your son was killed? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, yes, but they didn't know this. + +Mr. RANKIN. And Robert didn't know that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. They kept it from us--I guess being women. Marina and I +did not even know he was shot. + +I will go on to that story and tell you. No, sir, we did not know. + +Mr. RANKIN. The Secret Service people didn't tell you either? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; nothing was said. They wanted us for security +reasons---- + +Mr. DULLES. If the time is 11:30---- + +Mr. RANKIN. They left at 12 or 12:30, I thought. + +Mr. DULLES. You said 11:30 to 12. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Approximately that time. + +Mr. DULLES. It might not have taken place. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I know Lee was shot. But at this time I am telling you I +don't know this. + +This has to go in sequence, sir. Lee was shot, or else we wouldn't have +had all these Secret Service men around. But I know then after that Lee +was shot. Not now--I do not know this. + +Are there any questions? I am willing to answer anything you want to +ask. + +If you will bear with me, I can go into---- + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you later learn at what time of that Sunday he was shot? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. RANKIN. You never did? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Not until about 3 days later. That is what I was telling +you about Six Flags. I am trying to explain to you why I don't know +these things is because we did not sit down and watch television and +read papers. Marina and I--I had two sick babies there. There was a +doctor coming in twice a day. I was a very busy woman. And the men were +not telling us anything. They were not interested in us. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, after you told them that you wanted to stay in a +hotel, you could be protected there, what happened? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Then, of course, nothing was said that they were going +to give me my way. But we needed clothes--Marina and the baby needed +clothes. So then they decided that they should go to Irving, through +my suggestion and so on, and pick up clothes for Marina and the baby, +because we were short on diapers. So they are going to Irving. + +We got to Irving. There is police cars all around. So that is why I +feel sure my son was shot. + +Mr. RANKIN. How far away is that from this Executive Inn? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I would think--now, this is just hearsay. But I would +think it is about 12 to 15 or 18 miles. + +When we reached there, they brought us to the chief of police's home. +And there were cars all around. + +As soon as the car stopped, the Secret Service agent said, "Lee has +been shot." + +And I said, "How badly?" + +He said, "In the shoulder." + +They brought Marina into the house. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him how he knew that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It came over--I thought he had the radio in the car, +Secret Serviceman, and he had talked to someone. This was all set up, +sir, and I can prove to you. They didn't want us to know. They are now +telling us this, Marina and I. + +He talked, and then he turned around and said, "Lee has been shot." + +I said, "How badly?" + +He said, "In the shoulder." + +I cried, and said, "Marina, Lee has been shot." + +So Marina went into the chief of police's at Irving home, to call Mrs. +Paine, to get the diapers and things ready. They decided and told us, +with me in the car and Marina, that it would not be a good thing for +us to go to Mrs. Paine's home and get these things, that Marina should +go in the chief of police's home and call and tell Mrs. Paine what she +wanted. + +And one or two of the agents would go and get the things for Marina. + +So I am sitting in the car with the agent. Marina is in the home +now--remember. + +So something comes over the mike, and the Secret Service agent says, +"Do not repeat. Do not repeat." + +I said, "My son is gone isn't he?" + +And he didn't answer. + +I said, "Answer me. I want to know. If my son is gone, I want to +meditate." + +He said, "Yes, Mrs. Oswald, your son has just expired." + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, which agent told you this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is the agent that was also now sent to me to protect +me in Fort Worth, Tex.--Mr. Mike Howard, who was the agent that rode +in the car with President Johnson, who was the agent that was at Six +Flags, that was in charge, who was the agent that was assigned to +protect Baine Johnson at the dormitory. He is also the same agent that +was sent to protect me in Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, who was the other agent that was with you that day? +Was there another Secret Service agent with you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He went into the home--he escorted Marina into the chief +of police's home, and I do not know his name. And he is not the other +agent that I want to know the name of. + +Wait just a minute. + +I don't know this man's name. But he is not the other agent that is +involved. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, about what time on that Sunday did you learn of your +son's death? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, here is your time element. I said Robert and +Mr. Gregory and the Secret Service were there approximately from 11:30. +And I knew nothing about the shooting. And then we had to go to Irving +and everything. Then they told us Lee was shot. So now we are bringing +up to the time--it all fits in--which was 1 o'clock or 1:30. + +As a matter of fact, then when I got the news, I went into the home, +and I said, "Marina, our boy is gone." + +We both cried. And they were all watching the sequence on television. +The television was turned to the back, where Marina and I could not see +it. They sat us on the sofa, and his wife gave us coffee. And the back +of the television was to us. And the men and all, a lot of men were +looking at the television. It probably just happened, because the man +said, "Do not repeat." And I insisted. + +They gave us coffee. + +And then it later came out in the paper that--a story about the chief +of police, how it was set up for the women, that we should not know. + +We were to go to his house. There was a story about that from this +chief of police of Irving. + +Mr. RANKIN. What paper is that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The Star Telegram paper. + +All of my papers were taken out of my home by Secret Service men. While +at Six Flags, they saved the papers for me. We would not let the maids +take the papers. And I brought all of those papers from the Six Flags, +from the very beginning, to my home in Fort Worth, Tex. And every piece +of paper out of my home was taken. So I did not--believe me, gentlemen, +this seems strange, but it was 2 weeks later before I saw the picture +of the way my son was shot. + +Mr. Blair Justice of the Star Telegram gave me the back issues of +papers. And it wasn't until then that I actually knew the tragedy, how +my son was shot. Because they took all the papers, all my clippings +and everything. I was left stranded, without any papers. And until Mr. +Blair Justice brought me these back issues, some 2 weeks later, was +the first time that I saw exactly the tragic way my son was shot. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was there any discussion between you and Marina about this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. About the shooting? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. We didn't know. I was with Marina at the Executive Inn +from the 22d until the shooting, the 24th--as I told you. + +Then we left. And from the 24th to the 28th, at the Inn of the Six +Flags, the agents and my son kept this from us. We did not know. We +knew Lee was shot and dead. But we didn't know how. We didn't get +to read a paper or watch television. We just had snatches of the +television. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, when you both learned that he was shot on that Sunday +afternoon, did you and Marina say anything to each other? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes. That is another story. + +Immediately I said, "I want to see Lee." And Marina said, "I want see +Lee, too." + +And the chief of police and Mr. Gregory said, "Well, it would be better +to wait until he was at the funeral home and fixed up." + +I said, "No, I want to see Lee now." + +Marina said, "Me, too, me want to see Lee." + +They led us to believe that now they have taught her to do like this. +But Marina has always spoken like that. I have acted as an interpreter +for her, as I stated before, for an FBI agent. And she understood me. +And he was satisfied that he didn't need an interpreter. + +So she said, "I want to see Lee, too." + +They didn't want us to see Lee, from the ugliness of it evidently. But +I insisted, and so did Marina. So they could not do anything about it +with the two women. So they decided to pacify us. + +We got in the car. On the way in the car they are trying to get us to +change our minds. And he said, Mr. Mike Howard--he was driving the +car--"Mrs. Oswald for security reasons it would be much better if you +would wait until later on to see Lee because this is a big thing." + +I said, "For security reasons I want you to know that I am an American +citizen, and even though I am poor I have as much right as any other +human being, and Mrs. Kennedy was escorted to the hospital to see her +husband. And I insist upon being escorted, and enough security to take +me to the hospital to see my son." + +Gentlemen, I require the same privilege. + +So Mr. Mike Howard said, "All right, we will take you to the hospital. + +"I want you to know when we get there we will not be able to protect +you. Our security measures end right there. The police will then have +you under protection. We cannot protect you." + +I said, "That is fine. If I am to die, I will die that way. But I am +going to see my son." + +Mr. Gregory says--and in the most awful tone of voice, I will always +remember this--remember, gentlemen, my son has been accused, I have +just lost a son. + +He said, "Mrs. Oswald, you are being so selfish. You are endangering +this girl's life, and the life of these two children." + +I want to elaborate on this. He is not thinking about me. He is +thinking about the Russian girl. I am going to bring this over and +over--that these Russian people are always considering this Russian +girl. He snapped at me. + +I said, "Mr. Gregory, I am not talking for my daughter-in-law. She can +do what she wants. I am saying I want to see my son." + +And so they brought us to the hospital. And Marina said, "I too want to +see Lee." + +After Mr. Gregory said that--"I, too, want to see Lee." + +So then they did leave us at the entrance of the hospital, the Secret +Service men, and then the police took over. We were escorted by the +police in the hospital. + +Mr. RANKIN. About what time was that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I would not think it would be more than between 2 +and 3 o'clock. + +Mr. RANKIN. Sunday afternoon? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Sunday, November 24th. + +Mr. RANKIN. And then what happened? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Then Mr. Perry, the doctor, came down. We were escorted +into a room. And he came in. He said, "Now, you know the Texas law is +that we have to have an autopsy on a body." + +I said, "Yes, I understand." + +And Marina understood. + +Marina is a registered pharmacist. + +So Marina understands these things. And Marina understood. + +And he said, "Now, I will do whatever you ladies wish. I understand +that you wish to see the body. However, I will say this. It will not +be pleasant. All the blood has drained from him, and it would be much +better if you would see him after he was fixed up." + +I said, "I am a nurse. I have seen death before. I want to see my son +now." + +Marina--as I am trying to say, she understands English--she said, "I +want to see Lee, too." So she knew what the doctor was saying. + +We were escorted upstairs into a room. They said it was a morgue, but +it wasn't. Lee's body was on a hospital bed, I would say, or a table--a +table like you take into an operating room. And there were a lot of +policemen standing around, guarding the body. And, of course, his face +was showing. And Marina went first. She opened his eyelids. Now, to +me--I am a nurse, and I don't think I could have done that. This is a +very, very strong girl, that she can open a dead man's eyelids. And she +says, "He cry. He eye wet." To the doctor. And the doctor said, "Yes." + +Well, I know that the fluid leaves, and you do have moisture. So I +didn't even touch Lee. I just wanted to see that it was my son. + +So on the way, leaving the body in the room--I am in the room---- + +Mr. RANKIN. You were satisfied it was your son? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. That is why I wanted to see the body. I wanted +to make sure it was my son. + +So while leaving the room, I said to the police--"I think some day you +will hang your heads in shame." + +I said, "I happen to know, and know some facts, that maybe this is the +unsung hero of this episode. And I, as his mother, intend to provide +this if I can." + +And, with that, I left the room. + +Then we were escorted into a room downstairs, and introduced to the +chaplain. I have asked several reporters to give me the chaplain's +name, because I wanted to have all this information for you. But you +have to realize I just knew Thursday. And I have three times as many +papers as I have here. So it has been a chore for me to do all of this. +But that is easy to find out--the name of the chaplain at Parkland +Hospital. So I asked to speak to the chaplain in private. So I spoke to +the chaplain in private, and I told him that I thought my son was an +agent, and that I wanted him to talk to Robert. Robert does not listen +to me, never has, and I have had very, very little conversation with +Robert, ever since Robert has joined the Marines, because of the way +our life has intervened. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell the chaplain why you thought your son was an +agent? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, but this is what I told the chaplain. No--I am +always thinking of my country, the security of my country before I +would say anything like that. + +And I told you why I told the FBI men, because of the money involved, +and I didn't know how the public would take this, because they helped a +Marxist. + +So I didn't tell him. But I did say I wanted him to talk to Robert, +because we financially were in very poor straits. And then I wanted my +son buried in the Arlington Cemetery. + +Now, gentlemen, I didn't know that President Kennedy was going to be +buried in Arlington Cemetery. All I know is that my son is an agent, +and that he deserves to be buried in Arlington Cemetery. So I talked to +the chaplain about this. I went into quite detail about this. I asked +him if he would talk to Robert, because when I talked to Robert about +it, as soon as I started to say something he would say, "Oh, Mother, +forget it." + +So I asked the chaplain to talk to Robert about Lee being buried in the +Arlington Cemetery. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he report to you about it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. But he did call Robert in. We were getting ready. +The police were getting ready to escort us out of his office, and he +said, "If you don't mind, I would like to talk to Robert Oswald just a +minute." + +So he brought Robert into the room he had taken me, and stayed in there +a little while with Robert. So I feel sure that the chaplain relayed my +message to him, because we were getting ready to leave, and he asked +the police if he could talk to Robert. + +Mr. RANKIN. The chaplain never told you anything more about it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not seen the chaplain since. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did Robert say anything about it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, Robert says nothing. I have tried to contact +Robert for important matters, and Robert will not talk. + +Lee was left handed. Lee wrote left handed and ate right handed. And I +wanted to know if Lee shot left handed. Because on Lee's leaves, as I +stated, they live out in the country, and Robert goes squirrel hunting, +and all kinds of hunting. And on leaves from the Marines, Lee has gone +out to this farmhouse, to Robert's family house, and he and his brother +have gone squirrel hunting. And so Robert would know if Lee shot left +handed, and he would not give me the information, gentlemen. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is Robert left handed? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Robert is left handed. I am left handed. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is John Pic left handed? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, John is not. + +Mr. RANKIN. But you are? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Now, I write left handed, but I do everything else with my right hand. + +But Lee was more left handed than I am. + +I write left handed, but I do everything else with my right hand. But +Lee was left handed. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was Lee Oswald's father left handed? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That I do not remember, Mr. Rankin. No--I am the left +handed one. I would say no. + +Now, there is another story. And we have stories galore, believe +me--with documents and everything. + +A gun will be involved in this story, that Lee had bought. But I don't +want to confuse the committee. That is another part that we will have +to go into, that I will have to lead up to. The only way I can do this +and not forget things is to do the way I am doing it. And if you have +any questions, if you feel the story I have told so far--I would like +to know, myself, if I have forgotten anything. + +It is awfully hard for me to remember everything. If you want to +question me, I am more than happy, if I know the facts, to give them to +you. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, you go ahead and tell us in your own way. + +Mrs. OSWALD. May I have some fresh water, please? + +Mr. RANKIN. You have never told us about the Walker matter. Did you +know something about that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't know about that. + +The CHAIRMAN. You are going to let her finish this other, are you not? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't know about that until it came out in the paper. +But I have a story on that. + +Mr. RANKIN. You want to finish this incident about the gun you are +talking about? + +Mrs. OSWALD. About Robert knowing about the gun--I have already said +that. + +About Lee being left handed, and he and Robert going squirrel hunting. + +Mr. RANKIN. You said there was another gun matter. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is a long, long story. + +The CHAIRMAN. I think she has gotten to the point---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. I got to the point. I finished this story, really, don't +you think--about the gun? + +The CHAIRMAN. I don't know. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think about Robert knowing Lee was left handed. + +The CHAIRMAN. Has anything happened since that, that you care to call +to our attention, things that you know about? + +Mrs. OSWALD. On the particular story that I have said this morning--you +mean of Lee? + +This is where it gets confusing. + +Representative FORD. Where did you go after the Parkland Hospital? What +happened then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes. This is interesting. + +After the Parkland Hospital, then this Mike Howard said, "Well, what we +will do, we have a place, and this is where we will take them." + +And they took us to the Inn of the Six Flags, which is on the outskirts +of Arlington, Tex. They took us there. + +And I am assuming that it is a Secret Service hideout or something, +because they had made no arrangements or anything. We just were +welcomed right in the Inn. They knew where to go. + +Mr. RANKIN. What happened there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, Mr. Rankin, that is so important--if we are +going to recess, I am going to ask not to start that story, because +that is a very long, important story to this Commission. + +Mr. DULLES. How far is that from Dallas--the Six Flags Inn? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, it is in between Dallas and Fort Worth, Tex. It is +near Arlington, Tex. + +The CHAIRMAN. We will recess now until 2 o'clock. + +(Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +Afternoon Session + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED + + +The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m. + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mrs. Oswald, you may +continue with your statement. + +Mrs. OSWALD. On the way leaving, I remarked to Mr. Doyle that I had +forgotten one very important factor in the story. + +I had in Mrs. Paine's home, when Marina closed the door, and I was in +the room--before she showed me the picture--she told me at the police +station that they had showed her Lee's gun and asked her if that was +Lee's gun, and she said she didn't know, that Lee had a gun, but she +could not say whether that was Lee's gun or not. But that she knew that +Lee had a gun. + +Mr. RANKIN. When was this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This was in Mrs. Paine's home the night of November 22, +when we came from the jail. She told me that she told the police. I am +going to explain, because I don't want to be put in why I didn't say it. + +Mr. Mark Lane had hoped to come before the Commission, and he wanted to +ask me two questions. He didn't say what the questions were. But I know +the affidavit presented to the Warren Commission passed on that. And so +that is why I had put that particular thing off my mind, thinking Mr. +Lane would bring it up. But I immediately told Mr. Doyle when I left, +that Mr. Lane not being here I should have made that statement. + +Was there something else I told you? + +Mr. DOYLE. No. I think that was the matter you had mentioned to me, +ma'am. + +Mr. RANKIN. You mean the gun or the picture of the gun? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No--the gun. The police showed Marina a gun--showed +Marina a gun, and asked Marina if that was Lee's gun, because Marina +had testified at the police station, she told me that Lee had a gun in +Mrs. Paine's garage, and this was the gun that was presumably used to +assassinate the President, that the police had and showed it to Marina, +and asked Marina if that was Lee's gun that was in the garage. She said +she didn't know--that Lee had a gun in the garage, but she did not know +whether that was the gun or not. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any discussion with Marina about the gun after +that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--when she said that, that was it. Any comments--as +I said before--that was it. + +Now, where did I finish, please, so I can continue? + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, you had gotten to the Six Flags, and you had heard +about your son being killed. And then you had gotten to the Parkland +Hospital. + +Mrs. OSWALD. We were through at the Parkland Hospital. + +Mr. RANKIN. You had gotten through with the Parkland Hospital. + +Mrs. OSWALD. And then we got to the chief of police's home in Irving. +And we finished that. So now we are at the Six Flags. + +Mr. RANKIN. Correct. + +Mrs. OSWALD. So the FBI agent took us to the Six Flags. + +I was never questioned by the Secret Service or the FBI at Six Flags. +My son, in my presence, was questioned and taped, and Marina was +continuously questioned and taped. But I have never been questioned. + +I had all the papers from the State Department, and all of my research +from Lee's I say so-called defection. And I wanted them to have them. +All the papers were at home. + +I told them I thought I could save a lot of manpower, while they were +getting the original papers, because I know that each department in +the State Department had a reference on Lee, and I had the whole thing +condensed, and by them having my papers, they could get the picture. +They were not interested in any papers I had. They were not interested. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you not questioned on November 22, 1963? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. Here is what you may have on tape. + +I insisted so much that they talked to me, because I had all this--that +Mr. Mike Howard finally agreed--not 22d, though. + +Mr. RANKIN. This is Mr. Harlan Brown and Mr. Charles T. Brown? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is the two FBI agents, Mr. Brown, questioned me +in the office. But all they wanted to know is how did I know my son +was an agent, and how did I know that he had the money from the +State Department. And I told them Congressman Wright knew, and that +they would investigate Congressman Wright. That was a very short +questioning. I mean I explained that before. I told them I wanted to +talk to the FBI, and I did. And it was the two Mr. Browns, and there +were two other men. + +Mr. RANKIN. Then Mr. Howard was what date? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Mike Howard? Mike Howard was toward the end, because I was +so persistent in them talking to me, that finally he decided he would +put me on tape. But I do not consider this questioning. It was the date +of the funeral--I remember now. + +Mr. RANKIN. November 25th? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Was that the day of the funeral? If this was the day of +the funeral--I can tell you why. He decided he would put me on tape. So +I started to tell him about my having the papers, and Lee's defection. +And then Robert came out of the room and was crying bitterly. I saw +Robert crying. + +Wait, I am ahead of my story. + +You have to understand this. As a family, we separated--not maybe for +any particular reason, it is just the way we live. I am not a mother +that has a home that the children can come to and feed them and so on. +I am a working mother. I do 24-hour duty. So I am not that type mother, +where I am a housewife with money, that the children have a home to +come to. + +So I said to Mike Howard, "I would like Robert to hear this. Maybe he +will learn something." Because Robert never did want to know about +my trip to Washington. He doesn't know. Robert never was interested +in anything. Lee did not want to know about my trip to Washington. +So I thought well now this is an opportunity, since the tragedy has +happened, for Mr. Robert Oswald to know some of these things that his +mother has known all of these years. + +So I started. + +Then Robert had a phone call and he came out of the room, and he +was crying bitterly. So I ended the tape--I would say I talked +approximately 10 minutes. I ended the tape saying, "I'm sorry, but my +thoughts have left me, because my son is crying." + +I thought for a moment that Robert was crying because of what I was +saying, and he was sorry that he had not listened to me before, because +I tried to tell him about the defection and my trip to Washington. But +Robert was crying because he received a telephone call that we could +not get a minister at my son's grave. + +They had three ministers that refused to come to the ceremony at my +son's grave--for church. And that is why Robert was crying bitterly. So +that ended the testimony. That little while I testified, that ended it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, that questioning was a question and answer. You were +questioned by the FBI agent, Mr. Howard---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I was just talking. + +Mr. RANKIN. The Secret Service man? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Mike Howard. I was talking on tape. + +Mr. RANKIN. Didn't he ask you questions? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't recall him asking any questions. It could be. +But I frankly do not recall him asking any questions. But it was a +very short session. And that is the way I ended the tape. I said, "My +thoughts have left me because I see my son crying bitterly." + +That is the way I ended the tape. And it was a very short tape. I do +not remember him questioning me. I think I started to tell my story. +And that is the only time. + +It was from my persistence that I got on tape just that little while. +They did not want to hear anything from me. + +Mr. RANKIN. You don't think, then, that at that time there were +questions and answers for about 28 pages taken from you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. From me--no, sir. Definitely not. If they have that, what +they have is my talking, like I said, when I saw on television. They +said--they were showing Lee's gun. And I was not watching television--I +am getting snatches of it, and I said, "Now, how can they say, even +though it is Lee's gun, that Lee shot the President. Even being his gun +doesn't mean that he shot the President. Someone could have framed him." + +If they have 28 pages of that, they have me doing that kind of talking, +and had the room bugged, or whatever you want to say. But no, sir, I +did not sit and testify. I swear before God 10 times I never have. And +that is the point that has bothered me. + +Even before Lee's defection no one came along to the house. I called +Mr. John Fain in the FBI myself to make friends with him. If they have +20 pages of testimony--that is when they got it, my talking. They got +it with a tape recorder going. But I did not, no, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, then, what happened after that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now--we got off of that. About Robert crying? + +Mr. RANKIN. You said that that ended the interview with Mr. Howard. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that ended the interview with Mr. Howard, because +Robert was crying. I was not consulted. I want you to know this, too. I +was not consulted about the graveyard services or any part of my son's +funeral. + +What I know--when my son was going to be buried--it was approximately 1 +hour before the time for my son to be buried. My son Robert knew. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether Marina was consulted? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know. And I am assuming that she was. You see, +Mr. Gregory taught Russian to Marina. And I believe Marina might have +been consulted. But I do not know whether she was consulted or not. But +I was not consulted. And since then--we will go on to the story. They +have put a marker on the grave. I have not been consulted. I have found +out my son is encased in cement, and I did not know anything about it +until I investigated and asked the man at the cemetery. + +They did not consult me about anything, never have. I want that made +clear--because that is the part I cannot understand. + +Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether the laws of Texas give the widow the +right to say what shall be done? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, naturally, she is his wife, and I am just the +mother. But from a moral standpoint, what are they doing to me? Law and +right--but from a moral standpoint, I should go out to the graveyard +and see a marker? I should find out from strangers that my son is now +in a concrete vault? + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, then, did you go to the funeral? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, let me get--we will get to the story of the +ministers. + +Mr. RANKIN. All right. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I was not consulted. Had Robert asked me--they are +Lutheran, we are raised Lutherans. I have no church affiliation. I have +learned since my trouble that my heart is my church. I am not talking +against the church. But I go to church all day long, I meditate. And my +work requires that I don't go to church. I am working on Sunday most of +the time, taking care of the sick, and the people that go to church, +that I work for, the families, have never once said, "Well, I will stay +home and take care of my mother and let you go to church, Mrs. Oswald, +today." + +You see, I am expected to work on Sunday. + +So that is why--I have my own church. And sometimes I think it is +better than a wooden structure. Because these same people that expect +me to work on Sunday, while they go to church, and go to church on +Wednesday night--I don't consider them as good a Christian as I am--I +am sorry. + +Well--I would not have let Robert be so upset trying to get a Lutheran +minister. If he could not get a Lutheran minister, I would have called +upon another minister, because there would have been many, many +ministers of many denominations that would have been happy to come and +help the sorrowing family. + +Well, a Reverend French from Dallas came out to Six Flags and we sat on +the sofa. + +Reverend French was in the center, I and Robert on the side. And Robert +was crying bitterly and talking to Reverend French and trying to get +him to let Lee's body go to church. And he was quoting why he could not. + +So then I intervened and said, "Well, if Lee is a lost sheep, and that +is why you don't want him to go to church, he is the one that should +go into church. The good people do not need to go to church. Let's +say he is called a murderer. It is the murderers and all we should be +concerned about". + +And that agent--I am going ahead of my story a little bit--that man +right here---- + +Mr. RANKIN. You are pointing to---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. This agent right here. You may pass the picture around. + +Mr. RANKIN. The figure on the left hand of the picture you have just +produced? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I do not know his name. The man had the decency +to stay at the far end of the room, near the entrance door, while the +minister and myself and Robert were sitting on the sofa. And when I +said to the minister about the lost sheep, this agent, who I will have +a much longer story to talk about, left the group and came and sat on +the other sofa--there were two sofas and a cocktail table--and he said, +"Mrs. Oswald, be quiet. You are making matters worse." + +Now, the nerve of him--to leave the group and to come there and scold +me. + +This Mr. French, Reverend French, agreed that we would have chapel +services, that he could not take the body into the church. And we +compromised for chapel services. + +However, when we arrived at the graveyard, we went to the chapel. There +is the body being brought into the chapel. There is another picture. +Here is another picture of the chapel. + +Mr. RANKIN. Before we go on---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. And the chapel was empty. My son's body had been brought +into the chapel, but Reverend French did not show up. And because +there was a time for the funeral, the Star Telegram reporters and the +police, as you see in the picture, escorted my son's body from the +chapel and put it at the grave site. And when we went to the cemetery, +we went directly to the chapel, because we were promised to have chapel +services. And the chapel was empty. My son's body was not in it. Robert +cried bitterly. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can I interrupt a minute? + +We will have the reporter identify this photograph that you just +referred to, where the FBI agent is in the lefthand corner. + +(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 165 for +identification.) + +Mr. RANKIN. The photograph I have just referred to is Exhibit 165, is +it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Exhibit 165. + +Mr. RANKIN. And the FBI agent you refer to is in the upper lefthand +corner of that exhibit. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That's right. And this is the other FBI agent, Mr. Mike +Howard, who is going to be involved quite a bit. He is the one that was +taking care of Baine Johnson. He is the one that they have now sent to +protect me in Fort Worth. He was the lead man at Six Flags. + +Mr. RANKIN. And he stands right behind you there in that picture? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is Mr. Mike Howard. + +Mr. RANKIN. Isn't he a Secret Service man? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Secret Service man--they are both Secret Service. + +Representative FORD. That was the point I wanted to make, because she +had said he was an FBI agent. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--please interrupt. It is awful hard for me to remember +and say things. So I appreciate you doing that. It is a long story. And +I have many stories, gentlemen. I have many stories that I am sure you +do not have. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I'll ask the reporter to mark the other +picture with the chapel and the casket as Exhibit 166. + +(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 166 for +identification.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us if Exhibit 166 is a photograph showing the +removing of the casket? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The way the men are coming this way, they are leaving the +chapel. That is the way I would assume. They are leaving the chapel. +But the body was not at the chapel. What an awful thing we went +through, gentlemen. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 165 and 166, and ask to +substitute copies. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. + +(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 165 and 166 +were received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to mark the picture of the +chapel with the casket apparently going in as Exhibit 167. + +(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 167 for +identification.) + +Mr. RANKIN. And the picture of the chapel and the casket being placed +on a carrier in front of it, as Exhibit 168. + +(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 168 for +identification.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you recall that Exhibit 167 is the picture +of them taking the casket into the chapel? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And Exhibit 168 is apparently a picture in front of the +chapel where they are putting the casket on a carrier? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 167 and 168 and ask leave to +substitute copies. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. + +(The photographs previously marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 167 and 168 +for identification were received in evidence.) + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I don't remember if I stated while at Six Flags that +this particular agent identified as being to the left of the picture, +while the television was on continuously--I have stated before I never +did sit down and watch it, because we were quite busy. And this was +published in the Star Telegram by Mr. Blair Justice, and also on the +radio. + +He was very, very rude to me. Anything that I said, he snapped. And I +took it for quite a while. At this particular time that they showed the +gun on television, I said, "How can they say Lee shot the President? +Even though they would prove it is his gun doesn't mean he used +it--nobody saw him use it." + +He snapped back and he said, "Mrs. Oswald, we know that he shot the +President." + +I then walked over to Mr. Mike Howard and I said, "What's wrong with +that agent? That agent is about to crack. All he has done is taunt me +ever since I have been here." + +He said, "Mrs. Oswald, he was personal body guard to Mrs. Kennedy for +30 months and maybe he has a little opinion against you." + +I said, "Let him keep his personal opinions to himself. He is on a job." + +Now, there was another instance with this same agent. He followed +Marina around continuously. I'm going to make this plain. He followed +Marina around continuously. The pictures will always show him by Marina. + +We were in the bedroom, and he was in the bedroom. And we were getting +ready for the funeral. + +Marina was very unhappy with the dress--they bought her two dresses. +"Mama, too long." "Mama, no fit." And it looked lovely on her. You +can see I know how to dress properly. I am in the business world as +merchandise manager. And the dress looked lovely on Marina. But she was +not happy with it. + +I said, "Oh, honey, put your coat on, we are going to Lee's funeral. It +will be all right." + +And we had 1 hour in order to get ready for the funeral. + +I said, "We will never make it. Marina is so slow." + +She said, "I no slow. I have things to do." + +I am trying to impress upon you that Marina understands English, and +has always talked broken English. + +Now, this agent was in the room and Robert was on the telephone. That +is why he was allowed in the bedroom. + +While Marina was complaining about her dress, my little grandbaby, +2 years old--and she is a very precious little baby, they are good +children--was standing by her mother. And Marina was very nervous by +this time. She was not happy with the dress. And Marina was combing her +hair. She took the comb and she hit June on the head. I said, "Marina, +don't do that." And this agent--I wish I knew his name--snapped at me +and said, "Mrs. Oswald, you let her alone." I said, "Don't tell me what +to say to my daughter-in-law when she was hitting my grandbaby on the +head with a comb" in front of Robert Oswald. + +Now, why did this man do these things? + +Mr. RANKIN. Are you saying that the agent did anything improper, as far +as Marina was concerned? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now, what do you mean when you say improper? + +Mr. RANKIN. Was there any improper relationship between them, as far as +you know? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I am saying--and I am going to say it as strongly as +I can--that I--and I have stated this from the beginning--that I think +our trouble in this is in our own Government. And I suspect these two +agents of conspiracy with my daughter-in-law in this plot. + +The CHAIRMAN. With who? + +Mrs. OSWALD. With Marina and Mrs. Paine--the two women. Lee was set up, +and it is quite possible these two Secret Service men are involved. + +Mr. RANKIN. Which ones are you referring to? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Mike Howard and the man that I did not--did not know +the name, the man in the picture to the left. I have reason to think +so because I was at Six Flags and these are just some instances that +happened--I have much more stories to tell you of my conclusions. I +am not a detective, and I don't say it is the answer to it. But I +must tell you what I think, because I am the only one that has this +information. + +Now, here is another instance---- + +Mr. RANKIN. What kind of a conspiracy are you describing that these men +are engaged in? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The assassination of President Kennedy. + +Mr. RANKIN. You think that two Secret Service agents and Marina and +Mrs. Paine were involved in that, in the conspiracy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I do. Besides another high official. I will tell you +the high official I have in mind when we go through that part of the +story, if you please. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, now, could you tell us what you base that on--because +that is a very serious charge. + +Mrs. OSWALD. It is a very serious charge, and I realize that. I base +that on what I told you, the attitude of this man, and Mike Howard's +attitude also. + +Now, I have to continue. + +Mr. RANKIN. Have you described that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I have to continue. + +While at Six Flags, Marina was given the red carpet treatment. Marina +was Marina. And it was not that Marina is pretty and a young girl. +Marina was under--what is the word--I won't say influence--these two +men were to see that Marina was Marina. I don't know how to say it. Are +you getting the point? Let me see if I can say it better. + +Mr. RANKIN. You mean they were taking care of her, or were they doing +more than that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. More than taking care of Marina. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, now, describe what more. + +Mrs. OSWALD. All right, I will describe it for you. + +I am not quite satisfied with the way I said that. Let me get my +thoughts together. + +I noticed that--and of course as I have testified, the way the man +treated me--and I was told he was a body guard for Mrs. Kennedy. We +were at Six Flags on November 24th, at Lee's death, and on November +26th Marina and I--before November 26th--Marina and I were very, very +friendly, very loving, everything was "Mama"--"Mama has a big heart." +And we planned to live together. + +I had an insurance policy that had expired on Lee. I was not able to +keep up the premium. And I had $863. But however I had not looked at +the policy for some years, and I was not quite sure that it was in +force. But otherwise I had no money and no job. I had given up my job +to come to the rescue. So I was very anxious to get home and get my +papers and let them see the copies of everything I had, and to find out +if I had my insurance policy, if it was in force, and also get some +clothes. + +From the 24th until the 26th I lived in my uniform, gentlemen. I did +not have any clothes at the Six Flags. Yet Robert Oswald was taken to +his home a couple of times to get clothes. And when I wanted to go home +and get clothes, they put me off. One time I broke down crying. I said, +"I don't understand it. You won't do anything for me, yet you drove +Robert all the way to Denton to get clothes." + +So the night of the 26th they took me home, and I got my papers. I +found that my insurance policy was in force. So I said to Marina, +"Marina, we all right. Mama has insurance policy, $800. You stay home +with baby and mama work, or mama stay home with baby and you work, and +at least we have a start." + +"Okay, Mama. I not want big house, Mama. I want small place." + +And this is the girl that has never had anything, and she only wanted +small things. Fine. + +On the date of the 22d, approximately 10 o'clock--this was in the +morning--I want to say something to Marina, and Marina shrugged me off +and walked away. + +Mr. DULLES. What date was this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The 27th. That morning I had acted as interpreter for +an FBI agent, and Mr. Mike Howard said, "Would you like us to get a +Russian interpreter?" And he said, "No, Mrs. Oswald is doing fine." +And he took the testimony from me as an interpreter. So, you see my +daughter-in-law did understand English and answered me in her Russian +broken English, because the FBI man was satisfied. + +So when Marina shrugged me off, I thought right away that she +thought--because I had to use the name Lee so many times--that I was +hurting her husband, and maybe that is why she felt this way. So I +thought maybe I am just imagining things. So I waited quite a while, I +would say half an hour. I went to Marina again. And she walked away and +shrugged me off. + +So I walked into the living room, where my son, Robert Oswald, and the +Secret Service were and I said to Robert, "Robert, something is wrong +with Marina. She won't have anything to do with me." + +He said, "I know why. Marina has been offered a home by a very wealthy +woman"--all of this was done without my knowledge--"by a very wealthy +woman who will give her children education, and she didn't know how to +tell you." + +I said, "Well, Robert, why didn't you tell me?" + +Of course when I said it. I was emotionally upset. I said, "Robert, why +didn't you tell me?" + +He said, "Because just the way you are acting now." + +I said, "What do you mean the way I am acting now? I am acting +in a normal fashion. You are telling me that you are taking my +daughter-in-law and my grandchildren away from me, and I have lost +my son, and my grandchildren and daughter are going to live with +strangers. This is a normal reaction." + +"Well, that is why we didn't tell you. We knew you would take it that +way." + +And that is the last time I have talked to my daughter-in-law, Marina. +And that is the rift between Marina and I. There is no rift, sir? We +were going to live together. But this home was offered Marina--and I +will present this in evidence. + +Now, Mr. Gregory is involved--Mr. Gregory did all the Russian talking. +They all knew better but me. And I have more to the story. + +Yes, here it is. + +And there are other offers Marina had--other offers. + +So I was not able to be around Marina. The Secret Service saw to it. +And they gloated. + +Gentlemen, I am not imagining these things. These two men gloated of +the fact that now Marina is going to be fixed--you know, she is fixed +financially and otherwise. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is this Mrs. Pultz? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't even read this, sir, believe me. This was handed +to me by a reporter before I left, saying, "Mrs. Oswald, maybe these +things"--because he knows the story. This has all been published +publicly in newspapers, what I am saying. The Star Telegram could give +you all I am saying here. It has already been made public in the paper, +all of this. And he handed that to me. I never did see that article +until the other day. + +Mr. RANKIN. This article refers to Mrs. Oswald being offered a home, +and apparently a newspaper account--a newspaper account of the offer, +according to this newspaper account--the offer was by a Mrs. Pultz. +That is the one that you refer to when you handed this paper to us. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is offering her a home. + +Now, I have not read that. I know she was offered a home by a woman and +I will tell you further what I do know about this. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to identify this as the next +exhibit. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 169 for +identification.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, the reporter has marked that Exhibit 169, the +newspaper article you have just given us, is that correct? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. I now offer in evidence Exhibit 169 and ask please to +substitute a copy. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 169 for +identification was received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I left there on the 28th, so it would have to be the 27th. +It would have to be the 27th. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now, there were other people that offered her homes. + +Mr. RANKIN. But you seemed to think there was something improper or bad +about your son Robert wanting to get your daughter Marina taken care of +in this manner. I don't understand that. Can you explain it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Well--no--as I have explained before, Robert and +I are not close, we are not close as a family. But Robert is a very +easy-going person. He is not opinionated, particularly like I am. My +older son and Lee are my disposition. But because you are a Secret +Service man or somebody, if you tell him something, he will go along +and yes you. So he was part of this arrangement. They probably had to +have his consent. But he knew of the arrangement with Mr. Gregory and +Marina. They all knew it but me. I was not consulted about this at all. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you think Robert was trying to do something bad by it, +or just trying to look out for---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. He thought it was a good idea, that Marina should go +and live in this home. But I took a different attitude. I am not +interested in material things, gentlemen. I then went into my speech, +that I thought, as a family, Marina and I should stick together and +face our future together. I could see no reason--and I made this at +the Six Flags, and have made it public in the newspapers, I could see +no reason, no advantage of Marina living with strangers. I said that +before. I thought it would be better, original idea, Marina and I +had made, to live in my apartment and do the best we can. And I even +said--we have $863 to start with, and then if we don't make it "What +about you helping us?" + +"But give us a chance as a family. Don't put the girl in a strange +home, a Russian girl, a foreign girl, taken away from her Mama." + +Marina has no mother and father--she has a stepfather. But I was her +Mama up until this time. And I could not see Marina in a strange home. + +Well, I am going to prove this story to you. It is a fantastic story. +But as I go along--I have witnesses--and that is why I asked you, sir, +I would like these people called to back up these fantastic stories I +am telling you. It can be proven, sir. + +So I had no further contact with my daughter-in-law--once they came +out and said what they had planned. I had no inkling of it. That was +the--they wanted to keep her and the children away from me. + +That night, the night of November 27th--now, we were in a bedroom with +twin beds that we shared. They opened the studio couch in the living +room, and rolled June's bed, the baby bed in the living room, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by "they"? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The Secret Service had the maid come in with sheets and +everything and they got--opened the sofa into a bed. The Secret Service +rolled the baby bed from the bedroom into the living room. And I knew +that I was not wanted or involved. And I have a very dignified way +about me. I didn't say a word. What I did--I sat up in a chair all +night long in the living room, rather than to be so indignant as to +sleep in the bedroom where they had taken my daughter-in-law from me. I +sat up in a chair in the living room rather than be pushed aside like I +was being pushed aside. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, now, what Secret Servicemen were these--Mr. Howard? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Howard was involved, and this other man. + +Mr. RANKIN. The same man? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This same man. And my son is in this, too. Robert was +part of this conspiracy that they were going to let her go to a home, +and they didn't tell me--and Mr. Peter Gregory. + +Mr. RANKIN. And did they move your daughter-in-law out into the living +room? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she slept on the sofa. And they moved June's +baby bed from the bedroom into the living room, by my daughter-in-law. +And I sat in a chair. I can do that. I am a nurse, and I can do without +sleep. And I had all the papers. I told you that the night before +they took me home to get my papers. And that is why I knew I had the +insurance money. So I started to work on the papers. And I sat up all +night long. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did Marina say about that arrangement? + +Mrs. OSWALD. There was nothing said between Marina and I. The last time +I had seen Marina was when she shrugged me off, and then this came out +why she shrugged me off. I have had no contact with Marina since. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, why do you think there is a conspiracy about this? Can +you explain that to us? + +Mrs. OSWALD. About this particular instance? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I don't say that is a particular instance. But it is +certainly a very unusual way to do a thing, a very unusual way--not to +consult me. Marina and I were friends. She was going to come and live +with me. I was going to share my money with her. And then they went +ahead and planned all this without my knowledge. + +Maybe you know the answer to it, I don't know. But there was no hard +feelings--even now I love Marina and I would take and help her any way +I can. + +So I don't understand these things. But I am telling you the way things +happen, the way I was excluded. And your Secret Service agents had part +of this. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you do not think Robert and the Secret Service agents +could be acting in good faith to try to just help Marina and her +children along? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I cannot see from my point of view that it would +be good that a foreign girl lives in a stranger's home, a perfect +stranger who has come to the police department and offered her a +home. We are talking about a perfect stranger. If she is a perfect +stranger--maybe she wasn't. I have no way of knowing. But I am going to +assume what I read. It would be much better for this girl to go live +in this stranger's home than to be with her family? This girl and my +grandchildren needed a family, which I was that family. I cannot see +that. + +Mr. RANKIN. What I am asking you is: Do you think it is possible that +Robert was just mistaken when he and the Secret Service man, if they +are involved, thought this might be a good plan. Isn't it possible they +were trying to do the right thing? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I think it was deliberate. I am sure--I don't +think. I am positive it was deliberate. And I will tell you why as we +go along. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, you said you thought it was deliberate. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am trying to get everything in, so you can get a clear +picture. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, this plan to have your daughter-in-law go and live +with another lady--this Mrs. Pultz--you said you did not think it could +be innocent or in good faith? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--because then this same Secret Service man, that I +don't know the name--now, I may be wrong about this--just a moment. +No--this is not the same man. + +One of the other Secret Service men had gone to talk to Robert's boss, +because Robert was worried about his job. So this happened in the +afternoon. I had no contact with Marina. And he came in and in front +of me he patted Robert on the shoulder and said, "Now, Robert, I have +talked to your boss and you are all right. I assured him you are not +involved in any way." + +So, gentlemen, Marina is taken care of; Robert is taken care of--I am +not feeling sorry for myself, believe me, because I can take care of +myself. But here is a mother who has come to the rescue, lost her job, +offered her good love and insurance money, and nobody has wondered +what is going to become of me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, did you think it was improper that the Secret Service +man would go to Robert's boss and tell him he was not involved, that +there was nothing improper? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I think it was a fine gesture. And +that is the point I am trying to make out. Why are these fine gestures +to see that Marina is going to have a home and be taken care of, and +Robert's job is secure--but I am nothing. I was not included in the +plans. And what is going to become of me? I have no income. I have no +job. I lost my job. And nobody thought about me. + +I don't mean to imply I'm sorry for myself. I am trying to bring out a +point that through all of this, that I have not been considered, even +as much as to testify. I want to know why. I don't understand why. + +It is very strange. + +I packed during the night, sat up in the chair, as I said. + +So the next morning I am on my way home. I have no purpose to be there. +I was helping my daughter-in-law, and helping the children. But now I +am out of everything, so I insist on going home. + +Before going home, I asked to tell Marina goodby, and my grandchildren, +and what they have done this morning--they have taken her out of these +quarters and brought her next door, to the other quarters of the +Inn--it is just one door and a little courtyard to the other door. + +Mr. RANKIN. What day is this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is the 28th. So the agent that was taking me +home--I'm sorry, but I'm very bad at names, and there were so many +agents, it is awfully hard for me to remember it all. I told him that +I wanted to tell Marina that I was going. He knocked on the door. The +Russian interpreter from the State Department, Mr. Gopadze, came to the +door, and the agent said, "Mrs. Oswald is going home and wants to tell +Marina and the children goodby." + +He said, "Well, we are interviewing her, and she is on tape. She will +get in touch with you." + +So I never saw Marina after that time. + +Now, what worried me so was what did Marina think. What did Marina know +of this, and what did she think? Did she think I deserted her? Did they +think I left without telling her goodby? This worried me very much. I +could picture the girl. What did she think? I didn't even get to tell +her goodby. + +So I tried in vain to see Marina. I have called Mr. F. V. Sorrels over +and over and over, and he has never told me that Marina did not want to +see me. And this, gentlemen, I have proof of. He always said, "Well, +Mrs. Oswald, I am not able to divulge where she is" and the regular +push-around. He is not telling me plainly I am not going to see Marina, +he is being very courteous to me, but not letting me see Marina--if I +am making this plain. And I have publicly blasted that. Over and over I +have tried unsuccessfully. + +Mr. Mark Lane, who is representing my son, talked with Mr. Jim Martin +and Mr. Thorne--Jim Martin is Marina's business manager, and Mr. Thorne +is her attorney. And Mr. Jim Martin and Thorne have stated to Mr. Mark +Lane that Marina did not want to talk to me. + +Now, this is approximately a month ago, I would say, when I first +engaged Mr. Mark Lane. And Mr. Mark Lane said to me that he was not +satisfied, when he gave me the information. I said, "No, I want Marina +to tell me that." How did I know it was Marina's quote? + +Mr. Sorrels never told me that Marina did not want to talk to me. But +this was told to Mr. Mark Lane. But I would not take that as a quote. I +wanted to hear it from Marina. + +So we persistently tried to see Marina. When I say we, almost every +reporter in the city of Fort Worth and Dallas has tried to see Marina. +Mr. Mark Lane has tried to see Marina. Mr. Olds, who is head of the +Civil Liberties Association--I don't know if that's the proper name--in +Fort Worth has tried to see Marina. And there have been many prominent +people trying to see Marina, because they could not understand how +Marina could be under such strict surveillance that no one could be +allowed to see Marina. There have been many, many people question +this. It has been questioned, why Marina would be under strict +seclusion for 6 weeks, with not a soul seeing Marina. I say not a soul. +My son saw Marina at Christmas time, and probably had seen her before +then. + +His family went with him--I checked with my daughter-in-law, Vada, and +she said she went with Robert for Christmas time. It came over the news +in Fort Worth that Marina's brother-in-law, Lee's brother, would be +with her at Christmas time, and Mrs. Marguerite Oswald was unavailable +for news. + +Gentlemen, I stayed home crying, hoping against hope that the Secret +Service would come and let me be with my family for Christmas time, +waiting there patiently. I was available for news. I had blasted this +in the paper over and over. I waited for them to come get me. But there +again, I am excluded. + +Do you know the answers to all these exclusions? I do not. + +The first time Marina ever made any statement or public appearance +was approximately 2 weeks ago, or maybe not that long. She was on an +exclusive television program. Channel 4 in Fort Worth, Tex., when she +stated publicly that in her mind she thought that Lee shot President +Kennedy. What an awful thing for this 22-year-old foreign girl to +think. She thinks in her mind. She doesn't know. But she thinks, +gentlemen. That tape can be sent back to you. That was her quote. I +watched every television program, and I took it down in black and +white. "In my mind, I think Lee shot President Kennedy." + +She doesn't know our American way of life. Lee Harvey Oswald will be +the accused assassin of President Kennedy when this information is over +with, believe me. + +She is a Russian girl, and maybe they do this in Russia. But what +I am going to say is that Marina Oswald was brainwashed by the +Secret Service, who have kept her in seclusion for 8 weeks--8 weeks, +gentlemen, with no one talking to Marina. + +Marina does not read English. Marina knows none of the facts from +newspaper account. The only way Marina can get facts is through what +the FBI and the Secret Service probably are telling her, or some of the +facts that Marina has manufactured since. + +I am sorry, gentlemen, but this is a true story. + +Mr. RANKIN. What do you base your claim on, that Marina was brainwashed? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Because for 8 weeks no one has been allowed to see Marina. +I do not believe in my mind that that is an American way of life. I +question the fact that it is even legal, that they can keep her in +strict seclusion with no one seeing her for 8 weeks, gentlemen. + +Now, there may be a reason for that. I don't know. But the American +people want some answer to that. I have over 1,500 letters questioning +that. The papers have blasted it continuously. + +Mr. RANKIN. If she didn't have somebody to look out for her, do you +think the various people that wanted to see her would keep her so busy +she could not even take care of the children? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now, Mr. Rankin, I am not saying, even implying that the +Secret Service should not protect my daughter-in-law. I am grateful for +that, and I have expressed it. I am most grateful she has protection. +But would there have been any harm for me to talk to Marina with the +Secret Service around and let Marina tell me that she does not want to +see me? + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, let's leave you out of it. What about all the rest of +the people that would want--or did want to see Marina? + +Mrs. OSWALD. All right. + +Mr. RANKIN. And take her time, while she had to take care of the +children. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I agree with that. Marina should not see every Tom, Dick, +and Harry. I think they are doing a wonderful job in protecting her. +But when Mr. Mark Lane, who is an attorney, requested it, so we can +solve this, to just let Marina tell him that she doesn't want to see +her mama, and Mr. Olds, who is head of Civil Liberties, was refused +permission to see her, then we question it. + +No, I don't think all the people should see Marina. But people are +asking these questions, Mr. Rankin. They want to know why a high +official cannot see Marina, to satisfy the public's demand. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, Marina had her own counsel at that time, she said. +Mr. Thorne was her attorney. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Now, we will get to Mr. Thorne. + +When I first contacted Mr. Thorne I said, "Mr. Thorne, how is my +daughter-in-law and grandchildren?" + +And Mr. Thorne really apologized to me. He said, "Mrs. Oswald, they are +fine. But I am unable to divulge their whereabouts." + +He volunteered the information to me. + +And I said, "Well, sir; I am not asking where they are"--because I had +already--by the time she got this attorney--by the time I had contacted +him, we had been fighting this thing to see Marina. But he volunteered +the information. He said, "Your daughter-in-law and grandchildren are +fine, but I am not able to divulge their whereabouts." + +I said, "I am not asking about their whereabouts." I said that I had +Lee's Marine book, which is a big, colorful book, the life of a Marine, +that Lee had sent to me, and Lee's baby book; that I had had in my +possession ever since he was a baby, that I gave to Marina and Lee when +they returned to Russia, and my husband's gold pocket watch I had all +those years I gave to Lee. So I asked Mr. Thorne about these things and +he said he would inquire about it. + +I said, "Mr. Thorne, while I am on the 'phone I do want to bring +something up. While I was at Six Flags, the day I left, the morning +I left, is the first time that sympathy cards started coming in, and +money. And these envelopes were addressed to Mrs. Marina Oswald and +Marguerite Oswald, or Mrs. Marguerite Oswald and Marina, to both." + +The Secret Service started to open the envelopes, and there were checks +and cash. Because of my prior story that they had pushed me aside, I +said, "Now, my moneys that come in that says 'and mother' I definitely +want my share." + +Believe me, gentlemen, I have never received 1 penny. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. They said yes--and my son was there when I said that--they +said they would divide it. If it was a $10 bill and it said the mother +of Lee and the wife, that I would get 5 and Marina would get 5. So when +I talked to Mr. Thorne I said, "I want to tell you, Mr. Thorne, while I +was at Six Flags, I know of moneys coming in, but I have never received +a penny. But I want you to know that the Secret Service in my home, +because they were in my home from the 28th until the 3d"--I believe it +was---- + +Representative FORD. Third of what? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This would be December. Because this was the 28th of +November--approximately the 3d. The money that came into my home that +way, 'Mrs. Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald' the Secret Service +divided right then and there. If it was a $10 bill, I got 5 and they +took 5 to give to Marina. Whether Marina ever got the money or not, I +have no way of knowing. But the money in my home was divided and the +share given to Marina. But I never did get the share from the Secret +Service at this time. + +So 2 weeks later---- + +Mr. RANKIN. How much did that amount to, that was divided in your home? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Very little. My contributions up to now are just a little +over $900--about $905. That is the money that has been given direct to +me, the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +So about 3 weeks later--now, Mr. Lane comes in here. He has all of +these documents and all of these dates and everything. I don't know +about the dates. + +Mr. Thorne--from Mr. Thome's office and Mr. Martin I receive an +envelope about this size with mail for me, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald--not +"and Marina"--everyone open, gentlemen--opened, no cash, but checks, +made out to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, that nobody else of course could +have any benefit from. This late date. And there were checks way in +November, in the beginning of December, that were held all this time. +But until I complained, then they decided to send them to me. + +Mr. Lane has in his possession photostatic copies of my mail that has +been opened by the Fort Worth Police. I had a tip from a reporter that +my mail at the mayor's office and the Fort Worth Police and the chief +of police was being photostatic copied. So I sent a telegram--and I +have these things--you will have everything I have--to each one, the +same telegram, saying that any mail addressed to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald +should be forwarded to her immediately--to me immediately at 2220 +Thomas Place. I received no mail. + +Three days later--I received no mail. + +So I called Mr. Sorrels and told Mr. Sorrels about the tip that I had. +And I knew it was a positive tip--I could feel sure this young man +was giving me the right information. I had much information that the +public knows, that they have helped me in this case, Mr. Rankin. So Mr. +Sorrels sent Mr. Seals, I think his name was, a Secret Service man down +and the chief of police gave Mr. Seals--we have this--my mail opened +and photostatic copies. I can produce this evidence. + +Now, what right--I am not an attorney--but we have a moral issue all +through this that I am fighting for. + +If the mail went to the chief of police, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, in +care of the chief of police--it well could be that they have the legal +right to open such mail. But they do not have the moral right, because +I was an international figure, and everybody knew my address. And the +chief of police and everybody else knew my address. And that mail +should have remained unopened. How much cash was taken out of those +mails? I do not know. And I am not really saying there was. But there +is quite a possibility that it was. + +Then I received another package from Mr. Thorne, and my mail was +opened. I called Mr. Sorrels about that. He said he knew nothing about +it. + +First I called Mr. Thorne and he said that is the way he got the mail. +So then I called Mr. Sorrells and he said he knew nothing about it. +I said, "Mr. Sorrels, I'm getting awfully tired of this. Mr. Thorne +doesn't know how my mail is being opened. He says that he got the mail +from the Secret Service. And now you are telling me that you do not +give the mail to Mr. Thorne. Where does my mail come from opened?" So +nobody knows anything, the things that have happened to me. + +My rights have been invaded continuously--continuously. Every +newspaper clipping was taken out of my home. Three letters from Lee, +from Russia. I offered all my information, as I explained over and +over, to the Secret Service. And while in my home, I was showing +them things--because I was proud of the things I have, and I think, +gentlemen, when you see everything I have you will see a different +picture of this boy. + +There were three letters taken from my letters from Lee. And how I came +to know that--a New York reporter had offered--he was going to write a +story and had offered to buy three of my letters. I told him he could +have his choice. And so he looked through the letters, and I looked +through them with him, and I missed these three letters. These three +letters would have been of importance to the Secret Service and to our +government. + +But you must remember, I have offered over and over to give any +information I have. + +One letter stated that Marina's uncle was a colonel in the Russian +Army--I may produce this now. Is that what we need to do next--the +letters? + +Representative BOGGS. Was a colonel in what? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon? + +Representative BOGGS. One letter said he was a colonel in what? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That Marina's uncle was a colonel in the Russian Army. + +Would you like to look at these letters while I continue, Mr. Doyle? + +Mr. DULLES. Are these the lost letters? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, these are letters from Lee to me from Russia. + +Mr. DULLES. I thought you said three were lost. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, three were lost. The one about the Russian colonel +was lost--that the Secret Service men took--three letters--that would +be of importance for them. But I offered to give it to them. But they +were taken from my home. + +Representative BOGGS. How did you get them back? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am going to tell the story, and I have witnesses. + +So when I missed them, Mr. Jack Langueth, who we can call as a witness, +who is a reporter for the New York Times, wanted to pay me for +letters--he printed the story in the paper with the three letters that +he bought from me, three different letters I am talking about now, and +printed how many letters I had, including the three letters that the +FBI man that Marina's uncle was a colonel. He printed the things in the +paper. + +So approximately 5 or 6 days later the Secret Service man--and I can +find his picture probably--came to my home and returned the three +letters and got a receipt from me for the three letters. + +Mr. RANKIN. How much did this reporter offer to pay you for the letters +and other things? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I got $50 for each letter. And I have the receipt. + +Mr. RANKIN. I don't understand yet. You offered to sell the letters to +him, or let him have use of them for $50 apiece? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. $150. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. And then he published them? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. Yes--he published the letters. It was published in the +New York Times, the three letters. + +Mr. RANKIN. Then they were returned to you. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, he never did take the letters. Mr. Langueth never +did take the letters he bought from me out of my hand. As I told +you gentlemen, we went to a photostatic place and the letters were +copied, and I kept the originals. He paid me $50. That was printed +in the story. But the three letters that the Secret Service men had, +he printed in the story about Marina's uncle being a colonel in the +Russian Army. And that is the letter that the Secret Service man had. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you did not get paid for those at all? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No--these are different letters. So they returned those +letters to me, the Secret Service, and I gave them a receipt for them. +But they did not ask my permission to take them, or let me have a +receipt when they took them. So I am trying to point out the fact that +I got the three letters back, I would think, because the story in the +paper said that the Secret Service had these three letters and parts of +what they contained. So the three letters were returned to me, and I +had to sign a receipt for those three letters. + +Am I making that clear now? + +May I have some water, please? + +Representative FORD. Are we going to get these letters in the record? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Let me get the letters in the record, then. + +Mr. DOYLE. Let me go off the record a minute. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am not able to go into the defection now, because I am +not through with this part. The defection starts an entirely different +story, if you want to know the true facts, and it will take quite a +while. + +What sticks in my mind is this one particular letter about Marina's +uncle. The other two I am not quite sure. + +Representative BOGGS. What does it say about her uncle? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I have to find the letter, sir. + +I want to say this, gentleman. And maybe you are not in agreement with +me. But all my life I have known and I have thought that a title does +not make a man. It may be presumptuous of me that I am accusing the +Secret Service--because they are the Secret Service. But there are men +in our Government, and the Secret Service, who are undesirable, just +like in any other organization--let's face it. We have such men as +Bobby Baker, who was a citizen well thought of. Charles Van Doren who +was well thought of. Mr. Fred Korth who was under investigation, he was +a wonderful citizen. I can go on and on. Yet these men turned out not +to be the right type. + +I say this because my son was a self-styled Marxist, and a known +defector, and that is why his guilt was proven by the Dallas Police. +And my son--had he been a Senator or someone in the higher field, maybe +they would not have picked him up so fast. Now, that is a fact of our +way of life, of human nature. Having a title doesn't mean that you are +the man back of the title. + +Mr. RANKIN. Could we take those letters now and have the reporter +identify them? Here is the one about the uncle in the Army? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is one I am sure of. + +Now, I did not finish the story of the woman offering Marina a home. I +have not finished that story, really. This affidavit that I showed you +about the woman offering Marina the home the morning of the 28th--I +picked up the newspaper and I read in the newspaper--I will be through +with this story in 1 minute. I picked up the newspaper on the 28th +of November and I read in the newspaper where this woman had offered +Marina a home. So I said to the agent that was sitting up--everybody +was sleeping, and as I told you I sat up all night---- + +Mr. RANKIN. This was 1963, after the assassination? + +Mrs. OSWALD. 1963. November 28. It was on the 27th that I knew my +daughter was offered a home. Nothing was said where. In fact, at the +time I thought she was going to live in Mr. Gregory's home. I just +thought that. I did not ask. I was so hurt, I did not ask. + +But on the morning of the 28th I picked up the paper and read this +story about the woman going to the Dallas Police offering Marina a +home. So I said to this agent, "Evidently that is who Marina is going +to live with." But I did not know. But on the 28th is when I saw the +story of the woman offering Marina the home. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, you have produced a number of letters that you +described as being letters received from your son, Lee Oswald, while he +was in the Soviet Union. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. And we have asked you if you could identify the three +letters that the Secret Service brought back to you and asked you to +give a receipt for. You said it is very difficult, if not impossible, +for you to do that. Is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not say that. I said that one letter I was +sure of, because it stated that her uncle was an officer in the Soviet +Union. That letter I am sure of. The other two letters--I would have +to go through the letters. I think I could spot them, because it would +be of importance to our country and the Secret Service to know--in +other words, it was important for them to know she had an uncle in the +Soviet Union. And the other two letters would be on that order. And +I believe maybe I could--I would not want to state a fact that these +two letters--I think I would be pretty close to choosing the other two +letters as the proper letters. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I wonder if it would be agreeable to you if +we would identify all of those letters that you received from your son +while he was in the Soviet Union, and then possibly when we recess you +could look them over and see---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that's perfectly all right. + +Mr. RANKIN. See if you can pick out the ones you gave a receipt for. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is perfectly all right. Any way you want to do it is +all right with me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to mark them, and Mr. +Liebeler, will you help in the marking, because the letters are covered +with glassine, and it may be hard to mark them with ink. I think by +putting those stickers on we can help you. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Not all of the letters have dates. I think by taking the +date on the back of the envelope it would be all right. And we had them +in order. I don't know if they are still in order. But we had them by +the dates. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I offer in evidence Exhibits 170 to 179, +both inclusive, being pictures of the funeral and the casket that +Mrs. Oswald has produced here for the Commission, and ask leave to +substitute copies. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be so introduced. + +(The photographs referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 170 +to 179 inclusive for identification, and received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. I then offer the various letters that Mrs. Oswald produced, +that she said were sent to her by her son, Lee Harvey Oswald, from +the Soviet Union. And I think it would be better for our record if I +briefly state the date that the envelopes bear in each case, so it can +be compared with the number. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well. + +Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 180 bears the date of July 18, 1961, on the +envelope. + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rankin--is that the American or the Russian postmark? + +Mr. RANKIN. That is the American postmark. + +Mr. DULLES. Time of receipt in this country? + +Mr. RANKIN. That's right. + +Now, Mrs. Oswald, I understand from you there was one letter before the +letter bearing the date July 18, 1961, on the American postmark on the +envelope, and you do not have that here? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I may have it. I have many more papers and documents. I +have a suitcase almost full that I have not yet opened. The suitcase +was lost. We did not receive it until about 9 o'clock last night. + +Mr. RANKIN. You have not produced it today, though. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. But there is one more letter. It is the very first +letter I received from Lee. + +Mr. RANKIN. I call the attention of the Commission to the statement in +Exhibit 180, "She was living at her aunt's place when I met her. They +are real nice people. Her uncle is a major in the Soviet Army." + +Exhibit 181, dated August 3, 1961, was the envelope postmarked United +States, August 10, 1961. I also offer that. + +Exhibit 182, dated October 2, 1961, with the American postmark October +10, 1961. I also offer that. + +In each case, Mr. Chairman, I ask leave to substitute copies in +accordance with our understanding. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We will make a blanket ruling on all of them when +you finish. + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes, sir. + +Exhibit 183, dated October 22, 1959, with the American postmark on the +envelope October 30, 1961. I offer it. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you say 1959 and then 1961? + +Mr. RANKIN. '61---- + +Mr. DULLES. It is all '61? + +Mr. RANKIN. You are correct--October 22, 1959, is the date on the +letter. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is incorrect. + +Mr. RANKIN. And on the envelope it is October 30, 1961, Vernon, Tex. +Mrs. Oswald, can you explain that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Evidently Lee put the date incorrect--because I had +no contact with Lee from the time--I had one contact with Lee from the +time that he defected to Russia. And the only contact was when he was +at the Metropole Hotel in Moscow. Then the next contact was when the +State Department wrote me his address, which was July, or June 1961. So +where Lee put the 1959, I would say it was just an error, because the +postmark proves the date. + +As I have been saying FBI instead of Secret Service--I mean it is +just---- + +Mr. RANKIN. A slip of some kind? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Is the 1959 letter available, the Metropole Hotel letter? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When we go into the defection, I have letters from 1959 +that I myself have sent to Lee and have been returned, and, gentlemen, +they are unopened, and I will give you the privilege of opening my +thoughts to my son. They were returned unopened, because he was not +located. + +Mr. RANKIN. I might answer your question, Mr. Dulles. We have a copy of +the Metropole letter of 1959. + +Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Rankin, could I check--your Exhibit 182, the one you +called just before this--I gathered that you gave a date of the letter +and also a date of the postmark. Am I correct--October 2, 1961, is the +date of the letter, and October 10, 1961, is the postmark. + +Mr. RANKIN. That's correct. + +Mr. DOYLE. Thank you, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, with regard to Exhibit 183, which bears the date +October 22, 1959, in error, with October 30, 1961, as the postmark +on the envelope, I wish to call the Commission's attention to this +reference. + +"Marina's maiden name was Prusakova. Her aunt and uncle's address +in Minsk is"--and then the address is set out in Russian. And then +continuing the same sentence--"they don't speak any English. However, +her uncle is an Army colonel soon to retire." + +Mrs. OSWALD. And that I would think would be the letter that the +Secret Service--was one of the letters that the Secret Service, as I +previously stated, had. + +Now, may I say something here? + +Marina uses two names--Prusakova and Nikolaevna. Whether she was +married before, or whether she uses two maiden names, I do not know. +But I have a record of both names. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 183. + +Representative FORD. Mr. Rankin, don't we have a record of those two +names? Isn't one her maiden name and the other by her mother--and the +other by her stepfather? + +Mr. RANKIN. That is the record we have. That is what Mrs. Marina Oswald +testified to. She testified in regard to Nikolaevna. And the other name +appears on her papers as the father. + +Mrs. OSWALD. But now Lee has said in one of those letters that her +name is Nikolaevna. But then when he asked me in one of the letters +to get an affidavit of support that Marina could come to the United +States, that name appeared--Nikolaevna. Yet there are a couple of +letters where he refers to her name as Prusakova. And I have it in his +handwriting--when he gave me the slip of paper for the baptism he used +Prusakova--Marina Prusakova Oswald. He did not use the name in the +letters. That is what I find peculiar. + +Mr. RANKIN. The explanation was that the Prusakova was the +identification of the father, which is often done. And she explained +that with regard to the child they did not want to name June Lee Oswald +with your son's name, if you recall--that is your son did not want +that. But the Russian Government insisted that the father's name had to +be shown. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I am familiar with that. I have done research on +that. In Russia the father's name is used even if it is a girl. Now, +Mr. Peter Gregory--his name is Peter Gregory, and his father's name is +Peter, so his name is Peter Peter Gregory. They always use the father's +name as a second name, regardless of sex. So June is named June Lee +Oswald, which is Lee's name. And if there were two Lees it would be Lee +Lee Oswald. That I know of. + +Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 184 is dated November 8, 1961, and bears a postmark +on the envelope November 18, 1961. I offer it in evidence. + +Exhibit 185 is dated November 23d, without any year on the letter +itself, with the postmark December 4, 1961, as the American postmark on +the envelope. I offer Exhibit 185. + +Exhibit 186 is Christmas greetings and bears the date December 12, +1961, stamped on the envelope. I offer Exhibit 186. + +Exhibit 187 bears the date December 13, 1961, on the letter, and bears +the postmark date December 26, 1961, on the envelope. I offer Exhibit +187. + +Exhibit 188 bears the date December 20th, without any year on the +letter, and the date January 2, 1962, stamped on the envelope. I offer +Exhibit 188. + +Exhibit 189 bears the date January 2d, and the stamped postmark on the +envelope January 11, 1962. I offer Exhibit 189. + +Exhibit 190 bears the date January 23d, on the envelope, January 22, +1961, written on the back of the envelope. I offer in evidence Exhibit +190. + +Exhibit 191 bears the date January 20th, and stamped on the envelope is +January 29, 1962. I offer Exhibit 191. + +Mr. DULLES. These are all airmail letters? + +Mrs. OSWALD. They are all registered return receipt mailed. Everything +I had to sign for. + +Mr. DULLES. Nine or 10 days apparently, it took. + +Representative BOGGS. That is right--about 10 days, each one of them. + +Mr. RANKIN. Apparently--it states "Par Avion". But this one bears +a mark February 1, 1962, on Exhibit 192, and the letter itself is +February 1, 1962. That is pretty fast. + +Mr. DULLES. It must be 11. Isn't there a 1 left out on the other side? + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, it is in handwriting. So that would be pretty fast +mail. I offer Exhibit 192. + +Exhibit 193, dated February 9, 1962, on the letter, and it is stamped +on the envelope as February 23, 1962. I offer Exhibit 193. + +Exhibit 194 is dated February 15, 1962, on the letter, and stamped on +the envelope March 1, 1962. I offer Exhibit 194. + +Exhibit 195 is dated February 24th, without a year date, and the +envelope is stamped March 7, 1962. I offer Exhibit 195. + +Exhibit 196 is dated March 28th, stamped on the envelope is April 9, +1962. I offer Exhibit 196. + +Exhibit 197 is dated April 22d, without a year date on the letter, and +stamped on the envelope is April 28, 1962. I offer Exhibit 197. + +Exhibit 198 is dated May 30, 1962, on the letter, and is stamped on +the envelope June 6, 19--it doesn't show clearly what the year is, but +there is a 196, and I take it is 1962. I offer Exhibit 198. + +The CHAIRMAN. All of the documents that have just been offered in +evidence may be admitted and take the numbers assigned to them. + +(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 180 through +198 for identification, were received in evidence.) + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't believe this letter belongs with the letters. May +I see it, please? Is that a letter from Russia? I don't think so, from +what I can see from here. + +Mr. RANKIN. It purports to be, Mrs. Oswald. I hand it to you. It is +Exhibit 198 you are speaking of? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I'm sorry. There was another very important letter +of this size that I thought maybe became confused with the Russian +letters. You will have to forgive me, Chief Justice Warren, but this is +quite a big undertaking. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I just wanted to keep the record straight. It is all +right. + +Mr. RANKIN. I ask leave, Mr. Chairman, to substitute copies in each +instance. + +The CHAIRMAN. That may be done. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mrs. Oswald, will you proceed with telling us how you +determined or concluded that there was a conspiracy between the Secret +Service people that you described and Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, when I stopped--I have to remember where I stopped. +Now, am I still at the Six Flags? + +Mr. RANKIN. The last I recall you were still there. You had also +described, if you remember, the offer of Mrs. Pultz to take your +daughter-in-law and provide her a home. You have said that you had not +seen your daughter for quite some time, and you tried to communicate +with her. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes--I was trying to communicate with her. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you talked to Mr. Thorne? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--that was where my mail had been opened. And Mr. Mark +Lane has my mail and the photostatic copies of the mail. + +Mr. RANKIN. I think the Commission would be very much interested in how +you conclude that there was a conspiracy--if you can help on that. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I can help you. But I have many, many stories. I have +to start from the defection. I have a story of Lee's life at age 16 +that maybe you know about, maybe you don't. And I have many stories, +gentlemen. I cannot do all these stories in these 6 hours I have been +here today. I have covered quite a bit. I have many stories. + +Representative BOGGS. Why did your son defect to Russia? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot answer that yes or no, sir. I am going to go +through the whole story, or it is no good. And that is what I have been +doing for this Commission all day long--giving a story. + +Representative BOGGS. Suppose you just make it very brief. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot make it brief. I will say I am unable to make it +brief. This is my life and my son's life going down in history. And I +want the opportunity to tell the story with documents, as I have been +doing. I am not going to answer yes or no, because it is no good. + +Representative BOGGS. Well, you use the expression "defector." I did +not use that expression. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I said "so-called defector." The papers have "defector" +and blown it up. + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, you have told us, though, that you +believed that Mrs. Marina Oswald and Mrs. Paine and two Secret Service +agents were in a conspiracy that resulted in the assassination of the +President. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I also say---- + +The CHAIRMAN. What Mr. Rankin has asked you is what led you to the +belief that there was such a conspiracy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I can answer that, sir. But just to answer in one +sentence---- + +The CHAIRMAN. No, you don't have to do it in one sentence. Take your +own time, but stick to that one subject, please, until we get rid of +that, and then we will go to the other things. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, it is now quarter to four. And this is a very long +story. + +The CHAIRMAN. Don't worry, we will give you the time. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Would you please consider I am very emotionally upset and +tired, sir. I was up until 1 o'clock this morning fixing these papers +for the Commission. When Mr. Rankin asked me to come on Thursday, they +were not in the order they are now. + +The CHAIRMAN. You mean you cannot go on this afternoon? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Not the whole story. + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, give us as much as you can of it, and we will stop +whenever---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I have so far given you enough story to state this +as a fact--that I believe--I am saying as I believe, sir, because if +I knew who shot President Kennedy, I would be more than happy to tell +you, and we would end it right then and there. But there is speculation +among everyone. So naturally there is speculation by myself, and these +stories I have told you are fact. + +Marina became very unhappy with America. This I know for a fact. And +then I will say this is part of another story. + +Marina told me at Mrs. Paine's home that she wrote to the Russian +counsel to go back to Russia because, "Lee not get work." Now, that is +why Lee tried to get a visa in Mexico. But you see, sir, I was going to +tell that whole story of that. But I will answer this--and that is what +I based that on, too. + +It was Marina who wrote to the Russian counsel for exit visas, and Lee +followed it up. That is Marina having Lee do this. And she told me +herself. Yet she states that Lee wanted to live in Russia and Cuba. But +Marina wrote to the Russian counsel, "Mama, Lee not get work." So she +wanted to go back to Russia. She liked America. She wanted to stay here. + +Mr. RANKIN. About what date was this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This was the night in Mrs. Paine's home. I didn't tell you +that, because these other stories are important, and I was going to +bring it in for the Mexican trip. That is why I think you are confusing +me. I'm sorry. But these stories--the way I want to say it, I would not +forget anything by going in sequence. This way, when you are bringing +me questions from the Mexican story and from the defection, you are +throwing my mind off. + +The CHAIRMAN. What story do you want to get to now? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have so many stories. And I have gone through about +three or four today, complete stories. + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, select one of them, please, and let's don't argue +about the order. I want you to tell your story---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. My energy is exhausted, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. I want you to tell your story in your own way. And if +this one exhausts you, select another story, and tell that. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, can you tell me what short story I can tell, Mr. +Doyle? + +Mr. DOYLE. Why don't you start with--start and tell the members of the +Commission about your accident and Lee's going to Russia. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is a very long story. + +Mr. DOYLE. I know. But start it, and if you get tired at all, you +advise the Commission, and I am certain that---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. I will have something very important to this Commission +that I would like to say, that would take up some time. + +Mr. Rankin, I spoke with you, I think it was Thursday, December 6th, +and I told you that since it was publicly known I was going to appear +before the Warren Commission, that I would like to have protection, as +you recall. I did not get protection, sir. And so the next morning I +called you, approximately 9 o'clock, in the morning and told you that I +didn't have protection, and I was very concerned. And this would have +been Friday, the second call, and that I was going to the bank, to my +safety deposit vault, and get the necessary papers. And I definitely +wanted complete surveillance, because the papers were going to be with +me in my home, and the public knew I was going to testify, and I wanted +that protection. + +Now, you said, you would get in touch with Mr. Sorrels, sir, and have +Mr. Sorrel's call me, which he did approximately an hour after my +request to you that I did not have protection. Mr. Sorrels called me +and said "Mrs. Oswald, I understand that you want to go to the bank +and get your important papers out of the bank, and you have requested +protection." + +I said, "Yes. I thought I had protection last night. I woke up 4 +o'clock in the morning with all the lights lit, getting papers together +and cleaning the house." Because the telephone started to ring +consistently. + +I would have never done that if I would have known I didn't have +protection. I was leaving myself wide open. + +So he said, "Well, is your attorney in town?" + +I said, "No, he is not." + +He said, "May I suggest this, Mrs. Oswald"--first, he said, "What do +you intend to do with the papers?" + +I said, "The papers will stay with me." + +He said, "Is your attorney in there?" + +I said, "No, sir, he is an out of town attorney." + +He said, "May I suggest this. May we get a large brown envelope and put +sealing wax on it, and you put the papers in our safety deposit vault." + +I said, "No, sir, those papers do not leave my hands. I have had an +understanding with Mr. J. Lee Rankin that the papers were going to stay +with me, and that I would have complete surveillance while the papers +were in my home. Now, Mr. Sorrels, I want that surveillance. I am very +uneasy." + +He said, "Mrs. Oswald"--this was approximately 10 o'clock in the +morning--"Mrs. Oswald, I will not be able to have anyone there before 1 +o'clock." + +I said, "That is just fine." + +Mr. Mike Howard came out at 1 o'clock. We did some errands. I had to +buy some luggage, and a few little things for the trip. Then we had +supper. And at 5:30 we picked up the papers, because on Friday in Fort +Worth, Tex., the bank opens from 4 to 6--on Friday evening. So we +picked up the papers before 6 o'clock. + +Now, I thought I had protection that night. I had protection that night +until 12 o'clock. And then I understand that the Fort Worth police were +circling the neighborhood. + +Now, that is not complete protection. + +I am a government witness, with important papers. And Mr. Rankin had--I +requested protection--suppose someone had come to the door, or just +shot through my home? The police circling three or four blocks away is +not complete protection. + +So Saturday morning I wanted to go out to breakfast. I kept opening +the door and looking through the windows. And I never did see any men +circling the neighborhood. There was nobody around. At 10:30 this +morning I was still doing that. And by the way, a police car passed by +and I hailed him and asked him if he could check in the neighborhood +for the Secret Service, if they were circling the neighborhood--because +I want to put my garbage out, and I needed to go out, didn't have +breakfast. He said he didn't know what the Secret Service looked like, +and he offered to come to the back and put the garbage out for me, +which this Fort Worth policeman did. + +So at 11 o'clock I called Mr. Mike Howard's home. His wife answered the +phone. + +I said, "I am very uneasy. I don't have protection. I have been looking +for Secret Service men all morning." + +I was going out on the porch--I was opening the screen door and going +out on the porch. There is a school ground opposite my house. And +nobody ever came. I was not under protection. + +So she said, "Mrs. Oswald, they have their orders." + +I said, "Well, where is Mr. Howard?" + +She said, "He is on his way to your home." + +This was Saturday, at approximately 11:45. Well, I have it written +down. 11:45. + +So Mr. Mike Howard when I told him that I was stranded, and could not +go out to breakfast, and there was things I needed to do, he realized I +was very upset, and I had a legitimate complaint, and he realized I was +on my way to Washington. + +So in my home he called Mr. Sorrels, who is a special agent in charge +of the Secret Service and Mr. Sorrels was not at home. He talked to his +daughter. And he said, "It is most important. Would you have him call +me?" + +So he sat in my home and waited for the call. About half an hour later +Mr. Sorrels called. + +He said, "Mr. Sorrels. I want to know what to do on this particular +case?" + +And there was some conversation back and forth. And it went on back and +forth conversation. + +So I said, "I am getting very upset about not knowing the entire +conversation. I want to tell Mr. Sorrels that if he doesn't have the +authority, to give me complete protection, I want to know the man over +him, so I can get complete protection." + +Mr. Mike Howard said, "He heard you, Mrs. Oswald." + +So I don't know what went on on the other end of the line. + +But Mr. Mike Howard was on the spot. + +He said, "Well, Mr. Sorrels, it is this way. She is going to +Washington, and Mrs. Oswald wants to go here and wants to go there. And +if we are not around to take her, she will certainly complain when she +gets to Washington." + +So I am assuming now--I am speculating, like everybody else--that +Mr. Sorrels probably could have said, "Well, let her think she has +protection," because Mr. Mike Howard had to come back in front of me, +to his superior, and say, "That is no good. She might want to go some +place, so we have to be here. I want to know what to do." + +And then I got protection. + +Now, isn't that peculiar--that I am a witness, with important papers, +and supposed to be under surveillance, and I am not getting protection? + +I would like to know the answer to these things. And Mr. Rankin himself +called Mr. Sorrels. + +Mr. RANKIN. I talked to Mr. Kelley. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry--but I knew you had placed a call, because Mr. +Sorrels called me and said you had placed a call. + +So why didn't I have complete protection? + +There is a lot of "why's." There are a lot of "why's" that have to be +answered. + +Now, the man last night that met me at the airport--there were two +Secret Service men. One of the NBC men, I think it is--I am not quite +sure--was at the station. He asked me questions, and he knows about all +of this, because he was in Fort Worth, Tex. + +I would know his name if you would say it. Dave Benoski, I believe it +is. + +But he asked me a question. He said, "Mrs. Oswald, have you seen your +daughter-in-law?" + +I said, "No, I have not seen my daughter-in-law since Thanksgiving Day." + +"Well, is it the Secret Service who have kept you from seeing your +daughter-in-law?" + +And I said, "Yes, it is the Secret Service who has kept me from seeing +my daughter-in-law." + +Which, to me, is a fact. + +So in the car, with your two Secret Service agents, one was Mr. Brown +and one was--I am very bad about names--he said, "Mrs. Oswald, what +makes you want to blame the Secret Service? The time to have blamed the +Secret Service was when it happened." + +And I said, "I did blame the Secret Service when it happened. I made a +report in Fort Worth, Tex., about that." + +And I said, "The question was asked me." I answered him truthfully, +"Yes, that the Secret Service have kept me from my daughter-in-law." + +So he said, "Well, has it occurred to you that your daughter-in-law +doesn't want to see you?" + +And I said, "She made the statement in Washington, the first time I +have known of that, from my daughter-in-law's lips, that she did not +want to see me." + +And Mr. Sorrels never told me. + +Now, again, I don't believe this Secret Service man had the right to +quiz me like he did. I was very upset. Mr. Doyle can verify the fact. +When he came to the hotel I was on the verge of tears, because of this +quizzing. + +The point I want to make--he said, "Isn't it true that you have had +complete protection by the Secret Service for the last 2 weeks, ever +since the testifying began?" + +I said, "No, sir; it is not true." + +Now, where does he get the idea I have been under surveillance for 2 +weeks? I don't understand these things. + +Mr. DOYLE. Tell them about the defection. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Would you please consider that I can't go any more today? +It is 4 o'clock. The defection is a very long and important story +that leads into a story where a recruiting officer at age 16 tried to +get Lee to enlist into the Marines. And it is a very important story, +gentlemen. And I think you would be quite interested in it for the +record. + +The CHAIRMAN. We will recess now until tomorrow. Mr. Doyle, I +understand in the morning you have a court appearance that you must +make. But you will be available at 2 o'clock. + +Mr. DOYLE. Two o'clock. Your Honor. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well, we will recess now until 2 o'clock tomorrow +afternoon. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I appreciate it, because I was up until late last night +trying to get the papers for you. It wouldn't do you any good if I +break down. + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, we don't want to overdo the situation in any way. +So we will adjourn until 2 o'clock tomorrow. + +(Whereupon, at 4 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Tuesday, February 11, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED + +The President's Commission met at 2 p.m. on February 11, 1964, at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale +Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members. + +Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel; John Doyle, attorney for Mrs. Marguerite Oswald; and +Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas. + + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order. Are we ready to +proceed? + +Mr. DOYLE. If it please Your Honor---- + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle. + +Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Mark Lane is present as counsel, as I understand, for +Mrs. Oswald. Although I have not talked to Mrs. Oswald about the +matter, as I understand it Mr. Lane represented her from time to time, +in one capacity or another in the past. + +I do not know the particulars. Mrs. Oswald or Mr. Lane could better +advise the Commission about the point. + +Of course my designation was at the request of Mrs. Oswald to act in +her behalf, since there was no counsel of her choice present at the +time. + +The CHAIRMAN. True. + +Mr. DOYLE. In view of the appearance--I wonder if it might be +straightened out--if Mr. Lane wishes to enter his appearance in the +matter. + +Of course I would immediately respectfully move for leave to withdraw. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, what is your wish? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Mr. Lane is just here for a few hours, Chief Justice +Warren. He flew in just for a few hours. He is catching a 4 o'clock +plane out. And I thought--he had asked permission just to sit in for +these few hours. + +The CHAIRMAN. Either he represents you or he does not. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, he does not represent me. + +The CHAIRMAN. Then we will excuse Mr. Lane. + +Mr. LANE. Mr. Chief Justice---- + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Lane, now really--either you are here as the attorney +for Mrs. Oswald or you are not entitled to be in this room--one of the +two. + +Mr. LANE. May I ask, Mr. Chief Justice, if it is permissible for me +to function at Mrs. Oswald's request as her counsel together with Mr. +Doyle, just for an hour or two, and then be excused. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle has said that if you are her attorney he is +not. And Mr. Doyle is doing this as a public service. We must respect +his views in the matter. + +Mr. LANE. I see. I did explain to Mr. Doyle before I came into the room +exactly what the situation was. It was not until now that I understood +his response. + +Under those circumstances, I wonder if I might confer with Mrs. Oswald +for just a minute or two. + +The CHAIRMAN. If Mrs. Oswald wants to, she may. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, thank you. + +The CHAIRMAN. All right. + +You may take another room, if you wish. + +(Brief recess.) + +The CHAIRMAN. All right. + +Mr. LANE. Under the circumstances, since I do have to leave and I will +not be able to be here for the rest of the afternoon's session and for +subsequent sessions--under those circumstances, since Mr. Doyle will +not remain on jointly with me, I will at this time withdraw. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Now, we will continue. Mr. Rankin, you may +continue with the hearing. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, could you tell us first now, while you are +fresh, about this conspiracy that you said that you knew about? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--If you would like me to do it now. I was going to +lead up to all the fundamentals, to my way of thinking. I have no +proof, because naturally if I did I don't think we would be here. + +But I feel like there is a lot of speculation about everything. + +My way of thinking is because the involvement of myself at Six Flags +and the way I was treated, as I have already put into the testimony, +and as I stated yesterday, also, that I was supposed to be under +protective custody, and I was not. + +I wonder why I didn't have protective custody, why I am not important +enough, with papers out of the vault, and appearing before the hearing, +that Mr. Sorrels, head of the Secret Service, didn't give me protective +custody, even though you, yourself, Mr. Rankin, required it. + +These are the things I have to face that to me are very unusual. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, it is such a serious charge to say that these two +Secret Service men and your son and--I didn't understand for sure +whether you included anyone else in your charge--were involved in a +conspiracy to assassinate the President. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, no---- + +Mr. RANKIN. And your daughter-in-law. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is not my statement. I said I thought that we have a +plot in our own government, and that there is a high official involved. +And I am thinking that probably these Secret Service men are part of it. + +Now, I didn't say in a conspiracy--make it as strong as you did. I have +made it strong. But I am under the impression that possibly there is +a leak in our own government. And when I come to these papers--and I +specifically yesterday morning asked about Senator Tower. + +Now, I am not throwing any reflection on Senator Tower. But he made the +statement in the paper that he had a letter from the State Department +saying that Lee had renounced his citizenship. + +Now, you see, I don't have that paper with me. I had it yesterday +morning. But his whole quotes--the dates and everything of the letter +that he was supposed to have had is not in correspondence with the +dates that I have from the State Department papers which you gentlemen +know that I have all these papers from the State Department. Nothing +corresponds with what I have. + +So I wanted to know and see this letter that Senator Tower claims he +has. It could have been that it was an error in newspaper reporting, +and I will say in slang he could have shot his mouth off, because he +said he would not help the boy when the boy wrote him the letter. + +Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman, I saw the letter that Lee Harvey +Oswald wrote to Senator Tower the day after the assassination. And +I believe I also saw the response that he received from one of the +agencies of the Federal Government. Senator Tower had the original +of the letter. If it is not in our Commission files, I am sure it is +available for the Commission files--along with, whatever exchange of +correspondence he had with the Department of State concerning the +matter. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, what is of utmost interest to me in this +particular case is if there is such a letter, and it does not +correspond with anything that I have, I would like to know who in the +State Department wrote this particular letter. + +Representative FORD. I would not know who in the State Department +wrote the letter. I would suspect it was the Assistant Secretary for +Congressional Affairs, Fred Dutton, I believe. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am not suspecting, because I have many, many letters +from the State Department, and I also have something else that I will +present that maybe would be another party involved. There is very +conflicting testimony. + +You must realize that I went to Washington in 1961 and was in +conference with three officials. And this was another Administration. + +Now, I don't know much about politics, gentlemen. But I do know a +little from the news. + +Lee's defection was in one Administration--right? + +And now this is of another Administration, the Kennedy Administration. +And there could be a leak in the State Department. That is not +impossible. + +So I have two instances that I, myself, am not satisfied. + +Mr. RANKIN. A leak is so much different from a conspiracy to +assassinate the President, though. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but this leak this could be the party involved in the +assassination of the President--the high officials I am speaking of. I +cannot pin it down to one sentence, gentlemen. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, you named the Secret Service men, two of them. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you have anything that shows you that either of +those men were involved in the conspiracy to assassinate President +Kennedy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I will answer that emphatically no. What I have stated +is the way they treated me, sir. I elaborated the way these two men +treated me--correct? I did that testimony yesterday. + +So I have to consider these two men. I will put it that way. + +Mr. RANKIN. Let's consider Marina Oswald. Do you have anything that +will show that she was involved in any conspiracy to assassinate +President Kennedy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I feel like Marina is involved and also Mrs. Paine, yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, what do you have in that regard? + +Mrs. OSWALD. All right--because Marina--now this I have said to Mr. +Jack Lengett, who is a New York Times newspaperman a long time ago. And +I was ashamed to say it to anyone else. And I didn't tell it to him for +a long time. + +The story yesterday at the Six Flags, when I said to you Marina +shrugged me off, and the second time she shrugged me off. The second +time she said--and I would not say it now unless I had told Mr. Jack +Lengett--she said, "You no have job." + +In other words, since Marina was being offered a home, then you go +to--"You don't have job." + +Before she was satisfied to take $863 and live with me. I was giving +her my money and giving her my love. And then, "You no have job." + +I am trying to show you the disposition of my daughter-in-law. I love +her. But I am trying to show you that there is two sides. I told you +how she hit the little girl with the comb. "Mama, I no need you, Mama. +You don't have job." + +Mr. RANKIN. Why does that show she was involved in any conspiracy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Because I am going to try to show there is discrepancies +all along. She was not supposed to speak English. + +I testified that I, myself, questioned her for an FBI agent. I acted as +interpreter. So Marina did know English and understand English. So that +is a question. + +Mr. RANKIN. I thought you said she spoke broken English. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Broken English. But she is not supposed to speak English +at all, until now that she has learned English. That has been +publicized over and over. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you think she could understand English fluently? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I also told you when she lived with me that +month in my home, how we conversed and talked. And yet the impression +is that Marina came here and didn't speak English at all. + +Mr. RANKIN. How does that show she conspired to assassinate the +President? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Because Marina now is not happy. Marina was very happy, I +explained to you, the month she was with me in the beginning that they +had rented this house. And then Marina made friends, very, very many +friends. And Marina became discontented with Lee. Lee could not give +her the things she wanted, what he told her about America. And Marina +now has become discontented with me. I don't mean now--I mean at the +Six Flags. + +Mama always had a big heart. I quit a job to help these children, and +that is perfectly all right. That is my nature. + +But then, when she has somebody else, you are pushed aside. + +I am trying to show this. And, as I go along--I cannot help but face +this, gentlemen, it is a fact. I cannot help but face these things. + +So I am under the impression--and this is speculation, like anything +else--circumstantial evidence, let's say. + +I am just a layman. That is what you have against my son. Nobody saw +him with a rifle shoot the President. So you have mostly circumstantial +evidence. + +I have to think of all these things, who might be involved in this. + +The Secret Service men, surely you will admit, did not guard our +President properly. + +Now, that was also stated in the newspaper by, I think it is, Secret +Service Judge Baughman--am I saying that right? He is the one that--how +Lee got out of the building, and why the President--there are many, +many people that wonder. So I, too, am wondering. + +So I say that President Kennedy was improperly guarded. And I am not +the only one that says that, sir. So I have to consider that. I have to +consider the way I, myself, was treated at Six Flags for the three days. + +When I came here today--I have these notes, something very important +about that particular incident at Six Flags, to back up my story with a +witness. You don't have to take my word for it. + +Mr. RANKIN. What else is there now in regard to Marina that caused you +to think she conspired to kill President Kennedy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--because everything is laid out in Mrs. Paine's home +and Marina's home. The gun was in the garage. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, that doesn't make Marina do it, does it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, but Marina told the police that the gun was there +the night before. She saw the gun in the garage the night before. She +didn't see Lee take it that morning. But she made a statement that she +saw the gun the night before. + +The pictures of Lee with the rifle came from that home. If Lee is going +to assassinate the President or anybody else, is he going to have +photographs laying all around with the gun? No, sir. + +And there is too much evidence pointing to the assassination and my son +being the guilty one in this particular house. + +All through the testimony, sir, everything has come from this +particular house. And so I am a thinking person, I have to think. + +Mr. RANKIN. Why does that show that Marina had anything to do with the +conspiracy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, we are speculating, let's say. Marina is not happy. +Lee can't give her any money and things. And she has made friends with +these Russian folks that have cars and homes. And they are not happy +because this Russian girl doesn't have anything. They are not happy +about that. + +And I am trying to show the disposition of the girl. + +I love my daughter-in-law even now. Believe me, it is a sore spot to +have to say this. But I have to face these facts of what I know. + +Mr. RANKIN. You realize it is a very serious charge. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And it is also a serious charge that my son is +the assassin of President Kennedy. + +You see, we have two sides here. It is a very serious charge, because +no one saw him shoot the President. And yet this is an international +affair. And the conclusion has come to the conclusion that Lee Harvey +Oswald has shot President Kennedy, and he alone. Lee Harvey Oswald, or +Mr. J. Lee Rankin, or anyone in this room could not have been in that +many places in 29 minutes time. It is utterly impossible. + +And this has been gone over by hundreds of people. There are +investigations. I have 1,500 letters, sir--not just letters of +sympathy--people that are investigating this. And I don't read all +thoroughly, and I am a layman. But he step by step has been taken, from +what the reports said--that he was on the sixth floor, and then they +saw him in the cafeteria drinking a Coca Cola, and the President came. +Then he had to leave the building. He had so many blocks to walk before +he caught a bus. He had to board the bus, he had to pay his fare, he +had to get out of the bus, then he walked a few blocks, then he caught +a taxicab, paid the taxi man, then he walked a few blocks, went to his +home and got a coat. Then he walked a few more blocks and shot the +policeman. Then he walked a few more blocks and he was in the theater. + +In 29 minutes time it cannot be done. + +So I am convinced my son, and my son alone, if he is involved--I am a +human being, and I say my son could have shot the President, and he +could have been involved. I am not the type mother to think that he is +perfect and he could not do it. But I say he did not do it alone--if he +did it. Because it is utterly impossible. + +And I do not believe my son did it. + +I think my son was framed because, gentlemen--would his rifle be in the +sixth floor window of the depository--unless you want to say my son was +completely out of his mind. And yet there has been no statement to that +effect. Wade has publicly said on the television when it happened that +he is sane, he is well reasoned, he knows what he did. And Lee never +did break, with his black eyes. He kept saying he was innocent. And yet +in 12 hours time he was proven guilty. That doesn't make sense to me, +an ordinary layman. So I have to consider who is involved. + +Now, I am telling you that this girl was not happy with her situation. +She had turned against me twice. + +You, yourself, yesterday said that she testified that I told her to +tear up the picture. God give me the grace--I did no such thing. My +testimony is true. + +So now she has lied there, I have found out. + +And every evidence of any importance has come from this house. I have +to face that. + +Mr. RANKIN. What else do you have that shows that she had any part in +the conspiracy to assassinate the President? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I am under the impression that probably she--I +think Lee is an agent. I have always thought that, and I have as much +circumstantial evidence that Lee is an agent, that the Dallas police +has that he is a murderer, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. What do you base that on? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well. I am going to tell my story. I have it all there. +That is what I base it on. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us in summary? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I don't think I want to tell it to you that way, +because I cannot, almost. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is a very serious charge, that he was an agent, too. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, fine. So all right. + +If I feel that way, sir, don't I have the right, the American way, to +speak up and to tell you what I feel? Isn't that my privilege? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. But can't you tell us what you base it on? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I will, as I go along, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is that the only way you can tell it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't see how I can say to you I know he is an agent, +and I have papers. I want to tell the whole story. I still have more +papers. I have documents that I know you do not have, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Have you told us all that you know that would bear on your +claim that Marina Oswald was---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Had a part in it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Had a part in it or conspired to assassinate the President? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--I cannot prove it. And I cannot prove Lee is an +agent. I cannot prove these things. + +But I have facts that may lead up to them. I cannot prove it, because +if I did we would not be having this Commission, sir. I could say who +shot President Kennedy. + +Mr. RANKIN. So in both cases of the agent--Lee being an agent, your +son, and Marina Oswald and the Secret Service agents or anybody else +conspiring with him for the assassination of President Kennedy, that is +just suspicions. You cannot prove it--is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I would not use the word suspicion, because I am not the +type person to be suspicious and imagine things. + +You may think so, because I am a woman. And this is my son. But my +children were never tied to my apron strings. + +And I can prove to you, in his defection in 1959, I made the statement +that Lee, as an individual, had the right to think and do what he +wanted to. They even said he was a Communist. If that is what he +studied, and that is what he wanted to do, I accepted that, because +that was his privilege as an individual. And that is public in 1959, my +statement, which shows that I am not the sobbing mother kind because he +has gone to Russia, and cry about it. I acknowledge that. + +I have acknowledged that if the children, like Lee, went to Dallas, +as I testified that yesterday, and didn't tell me he was going to +Dallas--I don't grieve and lose my sleep over that. I have accepted +that fact, because when Lee and Marina got ready to come to me that +would be fine. In the meantime, I still have to live. + +Mr. RANKIN. Are you telling the Commission that your son was part of a +conspiracy to assassinate the President? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am saying that I realize that my son could possibly be +part--yes--I realize he is a human being and he could possibly be in +this, yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Are you saying he was? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I do not know. I am saying possibly he is involved. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you are saying possibly Marina was involved? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, exactly what I am trying to say. If I had proof, +sir, I would give the proof in an affidavit and this case would be +closed, like Mr. Wade said. + +But I have as much right to my way of thinking as Mr. Wade has. + +Mr. RANKIN. You are saying that possibly the Secret Service agents were +involved, too? You don't have any proof of that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is exactly what I have been trying to say. I +have told you how I was treated, which has given me cause for this +particular way of thinking--because I believe that my son is innocent. +And I think that is the purpose of this Commission, is to hear all +witnesses and arrive at a conclusion. Am I not right, gentlemen? + +So this is my way of thinking. So grant me my way of thinking. If I am +wrong, fine. But you may learn something. + +Mr. RANKIN. What about the high official now. Can you tell us who that +was? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I wish I did know. I have my own idea about that. +I would rather not--because it is a high official--I would rather not +give a name. + +But I have my own very strong suspicions as to the official who he +might be. + +Mr. RANKIN. We would appreciate your telling us within this group what +you think. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Fine--and I expect to, Mr. Rankin. I am a person that is +very outspoken, as you know by now, and I will certainly do that. + +But will you grant me the privilege first of finding out the name of +the man in the State Department that wrote the letter to Senator Tower, +because it is an incorrect--it is incorrect--the whole testimony is +incorrect. + +Mr. RANKIN. We will get that correspondence for you. + +Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I was going to go into something else, but +while we are here, I will continue this. + +And this, to me, will be in this line. And I think very important to +you gentlemen. And you do not have a copy of what I am going to show +you. I am the only person that has this copy. + +I am sorry to take time, but these were not copied, sir. We sealed them +up, and we were going to have them copied this afternoon. But I can +get to this particular one. This is the defection. I have much more +testimony than this. I have testimony, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you think that you can tell us the name of the high +official you spoke about? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I think so. And I am going to tell you. But please do +not ask me at this particular moment. I do not think this is the proper +time for me to--it is just--I have no proof. Understand? As I said, +it is my right to think and my analysis of the papers I have. I have +papers where I can come to a conclusion, just like you gentlemen are +going to have papers and witnesses and come to a conclusion. + +Now, this particular instance---- + +Mr. DULLES. I wonder if we could not possibly explore that agent +matter. I am very much interested in that. I cannot be here tomorrow. +We laid all the groundwork for that. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles would like to know her reasons for believing +that he was an agent. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have two very long stories. + +Mr. DULLES. I have to be absent, unfortunately, tomorrow, so I would +like very much to have it. + +Mr. RANKIN. If you could go into that question, Mrs. Oswald, because +Mr. Dulles is not going to be here tomorrow. + +Mrs. OSWALD. We have everything just so, and yet when we come here we +don't have it. The International Rescue Committee is what I am looking +for. + +I have also the original application from the Albert Schweitzer coming +that you gentlemen do not have. + +The CHAIRMAN. Let's stay on one thing, please. + +Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I am a little excited now, because I meant to +go story by story. + +Gentlemen, I have at least four more stories to tell--two I don't think +there are some parts you possibly can know about. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, if you could tell about why you think your son was an +agent, it will help to get that taken care of this afternoon while Mr. +Dulles can be with us. That is why I asked you that. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. We have a special file. You see, gentlemen, all +morning long I was in the backroom and we were copying things. We had +everything just so. So now I don't know what condition they are in. Mr. +Doyle and I worked on the papers again last night and we had them just +so. And then when they were copied, evidently they were mixed up again. + +Mr. RANKIN. We tried to have you present so that would not happen. Mrs. +Oswald. I guess you didn't accomplish that. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, they did take it into the other room, and we saw +that they took it. + +Well, I can be telling the story about it. + +It is the International Rescue Committee, and a telegram. + +I received a letter from Lee--this is going to be real short, Chief +Justice Warren. It is going to continue this one story. And then I will +go into the defection--is that right--because this will continue that. + +A letter from Lee asking me to go to the Red Cross in Vernon--I was on +a case there--and asking me to show the letter to the lady at the Red +Cross. And this is from Moscow. This is the letter from Moscow. And +telling her that all exit visas and everything had been documented and +he is ready to come home, but he needs help financially to come home. + +Evidently you have that information. That I know, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. So when I entered the Vernon Red Cross--now, this came +with Lee's letter, Chief Justice Warren--the letter you have there +direct from Moscow. That is why I have it, sir--because it was in +Lee's letter asking me to go to the Red Cross in Vernon. So I have the +original from Moscow. + +I told the young lady, showed her the letter and showed her the +paper. And I said, "Would you find out, please, the address of the +International Rescue Committee? My son is in Russia and asked me to +contact you." + +She said, "What is your son doing in Russia?" + +I said, "I don't know." + +"You are his mother and you don't know what he is doing in Russia?" + +I said, "Young lady, I said I do not know what he is doing in Russia." + +"Well, I think anybody goes to Russia doesn't need any help to get +back, they should stay over there." + +So I said, "I am not interested in your personal opinion. I need help. +Would you please contact, give me the address of the International +Rescue Committee so I can continue to try to get money for my son to +come home?" + +She did not know of any address for the International Rescue Committee. + +I asked her if she had a private line to Wichita Falls, which was +approximately 40 miles away, which would be the next big city. She +called Wichita Falls, and they did not know the address of the +international committee. + +So I called Robert and told Robert what I had and asked him to try to +find out the address of the International Rescue Committee. However, he +gave me no satisfaction. + +Now, I sent a telegram--and you know this part of it--to the State +Department, asking--I told them I was in a small town, Vernon, Tex., +and I had received a letter from Lee asking me to get the address and +help from the International Rescue Committee. But being a small town I +had no success--could they help me out? + +So they sent a telegram back with the address of the International +Rescue Committee. That you have. + +And this is Lee's letter--that goes with the other part. + +Now, this young lady was very, very regalish. She didn't want to help +anybody going to Russia. So when I received the telegram from the State +Department, it was on a Saturday. I called her that morning. I was +delayed 4 or 5 days. And to me it was very important, since my son and +daughter-in-law had all documents finished with to get the money to +come home, because I wanted that baby to be born here. + +So I called her at her home and told her that I had the address from +the State Department of the International Rescue Committee, and would +she be so kind enough as to come to the office and write the letter for +me. + +She said, "Well, Mrs. Oswald, I don't have a key." + +This is on a Saturday morning and she is in the courthouse. + +I said, "Do you mean to tell me you are in charge of the Red Cross and +you don't have a key?" + +"No, I don't." + +"Well, young lady, you have delayed me 4 days, and I don't like your +attitude. I am going to ask you especially to make a point to come to +the office and get this in the mail for me. It is very important." + +So, reluctantly, after much persuasion, she came. + +So she wrote the letter to the International Rescue Committee, and +handed it to me, and I mailed that letter--I mailed the letter. + +This is dated January 22, 1962. + +So she called me--her name--Mrs. Harwell. She is the only woman in the +Red Cross office in Vernon, Tex. + +She called me and told me she had received word from the International +Rescue Committee. She read me this letter. So I said to Mrs. Harwell, +"Do you mind if I take the letter, because I am very forgetful?" + +So she took a scissors, gentlemen, and she cut this part out, which was +her title and her address--it was addressed to her. This lady wanted no +part of anybody in Russia--understand? So she cut this out. + +But on the back page was the name. But that is why this space is +here--she cut it out. + +Now, the letter reads: "Since we had a call from the State Department +on Mr. Oswald's case, your communication of January 14th did not come +as a surprise." + +So this young lady has followed up with a letter of her own to the +International Rescue Committee. + +"Since we have had a call from the State Department, your letter does +not come as a surprise." + +I mailed the first letter, and it was just--so she followed up her +feelings about a boy in Russia. + +Now, why does the State Department dicker with me--that is not the +word--and then see fit to put in a personal call to the International +Rescue Committee? + +I would like to know who from the State Department called the +International Rescue Committee. + +There is my information there that I requested. Why is a call necessary? + +Mr. RANKIN. You think that shows there was a conspiracy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am wondering and questioning why a call is necessary, +a call, when they had contacted--and I am showing you what I have +here. I don't see any necessity of the State Department to call the +International Rescue Committee. + +And, gentlemen, you have a copy of this--Lee will not be helped. + +I would like to know who called the International Rescue Committee from +the State Department--yes, sir, I would. + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes, but you don't think that shows there is a conspiracy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, no--now. Mr. Rankin, don't pin me down everything I +say to the word conspiracy. I am trying to analyze a whole condensed +program of things that are not correct. I am telling you about this. It +could be just a simple thing, that he called. But I would like to know +who called when it wasn't necessary to make a call, and Lee was not +going to get the money. Read the letter. + +Mr. RANKIN. The reason I ask you about the conspiracy is because that +is such a serious charge. And, as you say, if you could prove that, +that would decide everything around here. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. And I am going to see if I cannot show you +these things. + +Mr. RANKIN. If you are speculating, which you have a right to do, that +is something different. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I have explained that I am speculating, that I have +all these documents, that some of them don't make sense. That is what I +am trying to tell you. I mentioned that before. + +Mr. RANKIN. You are not trying to say to the Commission that you have +the proof that there was a conspiracy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have emphatically stated that I do not have the proof, +because if I had the proof I would have an affidavit and give you +gentlemen the proof. I made that clear two or three times. I wish I did +have the proof, sir. + +I think I said yesterday--it doesn't surprise me that there may be +someone in our State Department or some official who would have part in +this. He is a human being just like we are. He may have a title, but +that doesn't make him a man back of the title. + +Mr. DULLES. What is this conspiracy now, Mr. Rankin? Is this the +conspiracy to do away with the President, or is this a different +conspiracy? + +Mr. RANKIN. The conspiracy I was asking about was the conspiracy, she +said, about the assassination of President Kennedy. + +And she said that it involved the two Secret Service agents and her +daughter-in-law and her son. That is the one I was asking about. + +The CHAIRMAN. And Mrs. Paine. + +Mrs. OSWALD. And Mrs. Paine. I feel like the facts have come from this +particular source. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, as I understand she says now that she is speculating +as to that being a possibility. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, Mr. Rankin. I have not changed my testimony, +if you are implying that. I may not have put it in a position you +understood. Because as I say, I certainly did not mean to imply that I +had proof, because if I had proof I would not be sitting here taking +all my energy and trying to show you this little by little. I would +have had an affidavit and show you the proof. So if you want to call it +speculation, call it speculation. I don't care what you call it. But I +am not satisfied in my mind that things are according to Hoyle. And I +believe that my son is innocent. And I also realize that my son could +be involved. But I have no way of knowing these things unless I analyze +the papers that I have, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. The Commission would like to know what you base your +assumption that your son was an agent on. Could you help us? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Would you like me to go into this story--I will start with +my son's life from the very beginning. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can't we get down to---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, we cannot. I am sorry. This is my life. I cannot +survive in this world unless I know I have my American way of life and +can start from the very beginning. I have to work into this. I cannot +answer these questions like in a court, yes or no. And I will not +answer yes or no. I want to tell you the story. And that is the only +way you can get a true picture. I am the accused mother of this man, +and I have family and grandchildren, and Marina, my daughter-in-law. +And I am going to do everything I can to try and prove he is innocent. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, now, Mrs. Oswald, you are not claiming before this +Commission that there was anything back at the beginning, at the early +childhood of your son, in which you thought he was an agent? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--at age 16. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, why don't you start with age 16, then. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, aren't you gentlemen--I have a letter from you, Mr. +Rankin. Aren't you gentlemen interested in my son's life from the very +beginning? I think you should, because it has been exploited in all the +magazines and papers. And this is not my son is what I am trying to +say. He is not a perfect boy, and I am not a perfect woman. But I can +show a different side of Lee Harvey Oswald, which I hope to do to this +Commission. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, I plan to ask you about his early life and these +other parts. But I thought it would be helpful if you would be willing +to do it to tell the Commission, while Mr. Dulles is here, what you +base this claim upon that your son was an agent of the Government. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and I would be happy to do it. + +Mr. RANKIN. If you have to go to when he was 16 years old as the first +point, that will be fine. + +But if you could cover that--then we will go on to the other things. + +Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I have your word that you will let me have +my life story from early childhood and Lee's life story from early +childhood. + +Now, I will start from age 16. Is that satisfactory? + +Mr. RANKIN. Would you do that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you very much. We were in New Orleans, La., at this +particular time. On or about October 5th or 7th--and you have this, +gentlemen, as my proof, that I am telling a true story, and I will have +witnesses that will be called--is a letter---- + +Mr. DULLES. What year, Mrs. Oswald? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I said 1959--I am sorry. 1955. No, wait now. 1956--when we +left New Orleans is 1956. Am I not correct? I am a little excited now, +because of what happened before. The note---- + +Mr. RANKIN. He joined the Marines in 1956. Does that help you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. Wait. We have a note from the Beauregard School +by me that I was going to San Diego. Do you have the note? + +Mr. RANKIN. We do. + +Mrs. OSWALD. May I see that note, please? And that is approximately +October 5th or the 7th, I think it is, 1955. + +Mr. DULLES. I think you moved to Fort Worth with Lee in September 1956. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. So it was in '55. I think that is correct. Let +me see. + +Mr. RANKIN. We are handing you this book that we received from the +State of Louisiana that is Commission's Exhibit No. 365, and turn to +page 11 and you will find the note you referred to. + +Mrs. OSWALD. To the school. All right, gentlemen, this is a surprise. +This is my note, isn't, to the school, that I am moving to San Diego. +And it has been blasted in all the papers how I moved around, and I was +going to San Diego. + +Gentlemen, I had nothing to do with this note, nothing whatsoever. + +Lee, my son, wrote the note--on or about October 5th or the +7th--October 7th. And now comes the story why he wrote the note. + +If you will see here, this is Lee's handwriting, to the letters. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence that note on page 11. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 199, and +received in evidence.) + +Mrs. OSWALD. I had nothing to do with this note. + +Now, I am working at Kreeger's Specialty Shop, 800 and something +Canal Street in New Orleans, La. I received a telephone call from the +principal of the Beauregard School saying. "Mrs. Oswald, I understand +you are going to leave town, and we are awfully sorry to lose Lee." + +Of course now, gentlemen, I am working and this is news to me. + +So I said--I kind of went along with it a little bit. + +Lee came into this shop later on that day. Miss Lillian New, I think +her name was, who is manager of Kreeger's Shop, and has been for +years--she will witness this. + +He said, "Mother, I have quit school." + +Mr. RANKIN. You say when the school authorities asked you, you sort of +went along with it. What do you mean by that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When the lady called me and said that, "I understand you +are leaving town, Mrs. Oswald." + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, because there was a switchboard, and my job was in +jeopardy, I don't know the exact words, but I said--I had to be kind of +vague about it and not discuss it. I knew I wasn't leaving town, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell her you were not? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't think I told her. But I had to be very--I +would lose my job if they thought I was leaving town. It was news to me. + +So Lee that afternoon, from school, came into Kreeger's Specialty Shop +where I was working and said, "Mother. I want to join the Marines, and +I have quit school." + +Now, Mr. Kreeger--and he may be leaving--Mr. Frank Kreeger who is owner +of Kreeger's Specialty Shop, and all of the personnel there--this is a +very small shop, and Miss Lillian, who was manager, knows of this. I +became very excited and I started to cry. And they let me go home with +Lee. + +So Lee was determined at age 16--his birthday was going to be October +18th, right--and this was October 7th--was going to join the Marines. +So what Lee wanted me to do was falsify his birth certificate, which I +would not do. And he kept after me, like a boy. + +Now, this is a normal boy, wanting to join the Marines. + +"I don't see why you don't just put that I am 17 years old." + +I said, "Lee. We cannot do that." + +He said, "Everybody else"-- + +I said, "No, I am not going to do it." + +For 2 or 3 days Lee and I bickered back and forth about me falsifying +his age. + +So I have a very good friend, Mr. Clem Sehrt, who is an attorney in +New Orleans, La. I called him and told him I had a personal problem. I +had not seen Mr. Sehrt since early childhood. I knew the family. That +Lee was not of age and he wanted to join the Marines. And he quit the +school and told them we were going out of town. + +He said, "Marguerite, I cannot advise you. It would be unethical. But a +lot of boys join the service at age 16." + +So he could not advise me. + +My sister, Mrs. Charles Murret, 757 French Street, knows of the +complete story. And so does my brother-in-law, Mr. Charles Murret, who +also said, "Let him join, let him go. If he wants to go so badly, let +him join the Marines." + +I, at that time, was living at 126 Exchange Place, which is the Vieux +Carre section of the French Quarter of New Orleans. + +And, by the way, the papers said we lived over a saloon at that +particular address. + +Gentlemen, if you have this information, that is just the French part +of town. It looks like the devil. Of course I didn't have a fabulous +apartment. But very wealthy people and very fine citizens live in that +part of town, and there are hotels and saloons, and courtyards where +the homes are. + +So I was very upset. + +There was a colonel on the street that I stopped--I didn't know him--I +said, "Sir, I would like to talk with you." I told him about the +boy wanting to join the Marines and I didn't know what to do. I was +frantic. And he was insistent that I let him join the Marines at age 16. + +So he advised me, "Well, if he doesn't want to go to school, let him +join the Marines. It is done all the time." + +Now, I was not too happy about this situation. + +Now, a recruiting officer from the Marine Reserve in New Orleans, La., +was in my home the next day when I arrived from work, with Lee, in +uniform, in the home when I got into the home. He introduced me to him +and he said, "Mrs. Oswald"--he didn't tell me what to do. He was very +vague about the thing. + +I said, "No, Lee is too young, age 16, to join the Marines. They are +liable to send him overseas." + +He said, "There is less delinquency in Japan and those places than we +have here." + +He saw nothing wrong with it. + +What he was doing was telling me to falsify his birth certificate, but +not in plain words. He was telling me it would be all right for the boy +to join the Marines. He came to my home personally. + +So I went to an attorney with Lee, because--here is the thing. + +Lee's birth record is in New Orleans. And I knew that the Marine Corps +could easily check on this child, age 16--his birth record. So in order +to have a happy situation, so I could work, and to see Lee, I went to +an attorney and paid $5 and said that I lost Lee's birth certificate, +and kind of motioned to the attorney. I knew it would not stand up. +I bought Lee a duffle bag and everything, and Lee went--we told him +goodby, and Lee was going to join the Marines. + +I had to accept that, gentlemen. There was no other way I could do, but +accept the fact to let him go. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who was that attorney? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Clem Sehrt. + +Mr. BOGGS. What did Mr. Sehrt allegedly tell you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon? + +Mr. BOGGS. What did Mr. Sehrt tell you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Sehrt is a family friend. + +Mr. BOGGS. I know Mr. Sehrt very well. + +Mrs. OSWALD. He said according to attorney ethics that he would not be +able to advise me. Before you came in, sir, I had stated that. + +Now, when I get interrupted, I lose--this is a big thing for me. I am +not making excuses. But, gentlemen, it is awfully hard to do this. + +So Lee came home. And he said the captain said that he was too young. + +Now, I don't question much. I don't know whether Lee changed his mind, +or they sent Lee home. I do not know. I do not question that. + +All right. + +Lee, at age 16, read Robert's Marine manual back and forth. He knew it +by heart. Robert had just gotten out of the Marines, and his manual was +home. And Lee started to read communistic material along with that. + +Mr. RANKIN. What communistic material did he read? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It was a small book that he had gotten out of the library. +And I knew he was reading it, Mr. Rankin. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was it in Marxism, or what was it about? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No--if you are saying the title is Marxism--no, sir, the +title was not. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was it about communism? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It was more about communism. I knew he was reading it. +But if we have this material in the public libraries, then certainly +it is all right for us to read. And I think we should know about these +things, and all of our scholars and educators and high school boys read +subversive material, which we call subversive material. So I, as a +mother, would not take the book away from him. That is fine. Lee is a +reader. I have said from early childhood he liked histories and maps. + +So that is fine. + +What I am saying now--we are getting to this agent part. + +He is with this recruiting officer and he is studying the Marine +manual--he knew it back and forth. In fact, he would take the book and +have me question some of the things. And he was reading communism. + +Lee lived for the time that he would become 17 years old to join the +Marines--that whole year. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he do during that time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon? + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he do during that year? + +Mrs. OSWALD. What did he do during that year? He was working for--as a +messenger for Tujaque and Son. + +Mr. RANKIN. He had quite a few jobs, did he not? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I can explain that to you. + +His first job was Tujaque and Son, who was steamship people, and he was +a messenger. And then he had a lot of friends. + +Now, they say Lee didn't have friends. There were boys of his +age--while he was working he had an opportunity to make friends, coming +to my home. And one of the young men knew of a better paying job, where +they had coffee breaks and everything, so Lee took that job, which was +with a dental laboratory--if you have that information, sir. + +And I think that is the only two jobs--no, Lee worked after school +for Dolly Shoe Co. I was working there, in charge of the hosiery +department, and Lee worked on Friday afternoon and Saturday as a shoe +salesman. + +That was his first job--while he went to school he worked there. + +And then when he left school, as I told you, at age 16--the first job +was Tujaque and Company, steamship, and then the dental laboratory. +And that is the only jobs he had in New Orleans. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were there not times he didn't have any job during that +year? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--because when we left New Orleans, Lee left this +dental laboratory job--that is correct. + +So I moved back to Fort Worth, Tex., because Robert did not want to +live in New Orleans. Robert was raised in Texas, and has his girl +friends and all his friends in Texas. So when Robert got out of the +Marines, he wanted to live in Texas. So I know that Lee wants to join +the Marines at age 17, so in the month of July 1956--and, gentlemen, +I have always been broke, and I mean broke. About a week before rent +time, we had it pretty hard in order to have that rent. Yet I take my +furniture and ship it to New Orleans so Lee could be with his brother +and we could be with the family--thinking maybe with Robert he would +not join the Marines at age 17 and finish his schooling. + +When Lee became age 17, October 18th, he joined the Marines. + +The reason why he didn't go into the Marines until October 24th was +the recruiting officer at the Marines could not understand his birth +certificate, because his father had died 2 months before. So I had to +send for an affidavit, even though I had the death notice from the +paper and everything, and they could have--they could not understand +that about that two months. I had to send to New Orleans for an +affidavit of his father's death. + +And so then Lee joined the Marines on October 24th. + +From the 18th to the 24th every day Lee was leaving. We even laughed +about it. Because he would leave in the morning and come home in the +evening. And it was because he was born 2 months before his father--so +he did join the Marines at age 18. + +Now--that, Mr. Dulles, is the part you wanted to know. But, before, +that has something to do with it. Lee---- + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Dulles wanted to know what you based this idea that he +was an agent on? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is one part. That is the beginning of it, Mr. Dulles. +I have much more. That is the beginning of it, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he join at 18 or 17? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He joined at age 17. I signed the paper. You will please +forgive me when I make mistakes, and if you will correct me. + +Now, at age 15-1/2 Lee was a member of the Civil Air Patrol. + +Do you have that information, gentlemen? + +I don't think you have. + +Now, just a minute. I am sorry--this morning, when they were copying my +papers. I put this in my bag. + +I have a picture right here--this is Lee at age 15-1/2 in the uniform +of the Civil Air Patrol. This is before the recruiting officer. We are +going back. + +And this is what helped Lee to make up his mind to join the service. + +The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead, Mrs. Oswald. + +Mrs. OSWALD. At age 15-1/2 or so, Lee joined the Civil Air Patrol. He +went on an airplane, on flights and everything. I got him the uniform, +with Robert's help. This young man--now, I do not know his name. He +is from New Orleans. And I am checking on these things. I have to do +research on all of this, and do it alone. + +This young man and Lee were very friendly. The young man that gave Lee +the idea of--went to Beauregard School with him, and he and Lee joined +the Civil Air Patrol together. That is the way I wish to state this. +And he often came to the house. So there is a close friend of Lee. Lee +is not supposed to have any friends. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he have any girl friends, too? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. Now, neither did Robert or John Edward. No, sir. +Neither of my boys had girl friends until after about age 17. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he have other close friends, boy friends, besides these +that you recall? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I would not say he had--unless during working--he +was working at this time, and I was working during the day. But I mean +at the house this young man came to the house, and several of the +other young men, as I told you before. + +Now, we are at the Civil Air Patrol. + +And that is why Lee went to the Marine Corps, is because of the Civil +Air Patrol. He wasn't in the Civil Air Patrol long. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, up to this point, you haven't told us anything that +caused you to think he was an agent, have you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, maybe, sir, I am not doing a very good job of what I +am saying. + +Mr. RANKIN. What do you think you have said that caused you to think---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have said that a Marine recruiting officer came to my +home, and that Lee then continued reading Robert's manual by heart, and +started reading communist literature. He is preparing himself to go +into the Marine service--at age 17--this year before he actually joined +the service. I am saying he is already preparing himself. + +Mr. RANKIN. To become an agent? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I think with the influence of this recruiting officer. + +Mr. RANKIN. You think the recruiting officer inspired him---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, influenced this boy. + +Mr. RANKIN. ----to read the communist literature? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--and Robert's Marine book. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else you base that on, except what you +have told us? + +Mrs. OSWALD. About him being an agent? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, when I get through the whole story. + +Mr. RANKIN. I mean as far as the recruiting officer. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. Otherwise than Lee's attitude. Lee read this manual. +He knew it by heart. I even said, "Boy, you are going to be a general, +if you ever get in the Marines." + +Mr. RANKIN. And you base the idea---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. He had the idea. + +Mr. RANKIN. He was being prepared to become an agent, and inspired by +this recruiting officer? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. By what you have told us about his reading the communist +literature and this one pamphlet, and also the manual of the Marine +Corps? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And then living to when he is age 17 to join the +Marines, which I knew, and which he did at age 17 on his birthday. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, what else do you base your idea that he was--ever +became an agent or was going to become an agent on? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Many, many things. We always watched--it is "I Led Three +Lives"--the program--Philbrick. We always watched that. And when Lee +returned from the service and the Marines, the three days--that program +was on, and he turned it off. He said, "Mother, don't watch that, that +is a lot of propaganda." + +It has been stated publicly that the FBI did not know--didn't have +Lee on the subversive list--I am probably not saying this right, +gentlemen--but the rightwing in Dallas. I don't know anything +politically. The FBI and Secret Service had a list of names in Dallas +of people that had to be watched, and Lee Harvey Oswald was not on that +list. That would lead to believe there was some reason he was not on +the list. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who did you get that from? + +Mrs. OSWALD. From the newspapers and all over. And there has been a lot +of comment about this all through. + +Now, I don't say it is correct. But what I have explained to you +before--my way of thinking has to go with this, because I know the boy +and the whole life, and you do not, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, I want to try to find out all you know about it. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Fine. And I want you to. + +Also, Lee's letters--and I have them in the hotel--I didn't bring them, +because I thought we were through, and you have the copies--most every +letter from Lee tells me something. + +When Lee is coming back from Russia he says, "I plan to stop over in +Washington a while." + +Lee says in the letter, "Marina's uncle is a major in the Soviet Union." + +"I am an American citizen and I will never take Soviet citizenship." + +If you will read every letter--if you think he is an agent--every +letter is telling his mother--"If something happens to me, Mother, +these are facts." + +I might be elaborating. But I think my son is an agent. And these +things piece by piece are going together, as far as I am concerned. + +Representative FORD. When did you first think he was an agent? + +Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee defected. And I have always said a so-called +defection, for this reason. + +Now, we come to another letter. I am going to have to take some time +now, because we are not going in sequence. The letter Lee wrote to me +from New Orleans is what I need. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you have the letter in which he says he was going to +Washington? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I gave you that copy yesterday. I don't have the +letter with me. They are at the hotel. + +Mr. RANKIN. You gave it to us yesterday? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--that he would stop over in Washington. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date of that one? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, he was supposed to arrive in New York on the +13th of June, 1962. And that is the letter. When he arrived, I do not +know. And I do not know if he went to Washington. + +As I stated yesterday, he went to Robert's house, and I was on a case. +So I don't know when he arrived in New York. + +Now, this is the letter. Lee is out of the Marines, and he stays home +with me 3 days. And I have publicly stated--and this came out of my +book this morning--Lee came home September 14, 1959. He stayed 3 days +with me. Said he would like to travel on a ship working his way. +Possibly export and import. He remarked he could make more money that +way. + +The next page is the letter he sent me, and then came the news of his +being in Russia. + +This is the letter. + +"Dear Mother"----- + +Mr. DULLES. Is that dated? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This is just dated September. He was released +from the Marine Corps on September 14th--I believe I am correct, Mr. +Rankin. + +And he stayed with me 3 days. + +And then this is--well, the date on the envelope is September 19th. He +stayed with me 3 days. + +"Dear Mother, well, I have booked passage on a ship to Europe. I would +have had to sooner or later, and I think it is best to go now." + +"I would have had to sooner or later, so I think it is best that I go +now. Just remember above all else that my values are very different +from Robert or us, and it is difficult to tell you how I feel. Just +remember this is what I must do. I did not tell you about my plans +because you could hardly be expected to understand. I did not see +Lillian while I was here. I will write you again as soon as I land. +Lee." + +Mr. RANKIN. What do you think he meant by that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is what I want to tell you. All of this speculation, +gentlemen. And that is why I say the Warren Commission--unless they +hear my story and the witnesses involved, cannot arrive at a true +conclusion. + +Now, what would you think about this? + +A few days later you get headlines. "Fort Worth Boy Has Defected to +Russia." And I made the letter public. This letter says to his mother +he is defecting to Russia--right? That is the way you would read the +letter. + +It is easily read this way when you think a boy has defected to Russia. +So you would read the letter that way. + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rankin, do we have correspondence while he was in the +Marines? + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you recall any letters you received from +your son during the time he was in the Marines? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I have a special delivery letter. You see, +gentlemen, that is why I have tried to explain to you before--if I +could have gone from the story we would not all be so mixed up. This +is a letter from the Marines saying he is going to contact the Red +Cross--when I told him about my illness. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, that is the correspondence in regard to his getting +out of the Marines because of your need of his help and support. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, except for that correspondence, you don't have any +other correspondence from him while he was in the Marines? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did have several letters. + +What has happened, Mr. Rankin--when Lee stayed with me the 3 days, he +left his seabag with me. And that is why I have his discharge papers +and things. And then, as you know, when the defection broke, I had no +place to go. So the lady I was working for even threatened to call +the police, because of the defection. I was working for $5 a week, +gentlemen, taking care of her son. But I was happy to have a home and +food, because I had had this accident, and I could rest. But my salary +was $5 for the whole week. But when the news broke, she didn't want to +be involved with anyone who had a son as a defector, so she asked me to +leave. It was a very cold winter night. And I said I would. + +But I didn't want to leave--didn't have any place to go. + +She said, "You will leave now or I will call the police." + +So I called Robert and he told me to come out to his home. + +When I went out to his home, I brought Lee's seabag, Mr. Rankin, with +me. And I stayed there just a short time. And Robert Oswald would not +let me have Lee's seabag. And there were a few letters in there from +Lee in the seabag. + +And so I don't have the seabag. + +You can read this letter, then, this way. That he is telling me he is +defecting to Russia. + +We all agree there. + +Then this same letter could be read the way I read it, as a mother. + +After three days he is leaving his mother. But we had a talk. When Lee +arrived home--and I will go into this thoroughly. I was ashamed when +he arrived home. I was in a one bedroom and bath and a small kitchen. +And my son came in about 2 o'clock in the morning. I have never lived +lavishly, but we have always had a nice clean little moderate house. +And, remember, I was destitute. I had no money. You have the affidavits +evidently from the Red Cross. If you don't, I have copies. + +The first thing I said to him, "Honey, the first thing we will have to +do is to move and find a decent place." + +I had a studio couch, which has two parts. The top part I put on the +floor for my son to sleep on that particular night, in the one room. + +So he said, "We will talk about it in the morning, Mother." + +So morning came. + +I brought the subject up immediately. I said, "The first thing we will +have to do is find a place. I am well enough that I can babysit or pick +up a few dollars. And until I settle my claim, I think we will be able +to manage, and you will get a job." + +He said, "No, Mother, my mind is made up. I have thought this out +thoroughly. I have no background. If I stay here, I will get a job for +about $35 a week, and we will both be in a position that you are in. I +want to board a ship and work in the import and export business, where +there is some real money." + +Mr. RANKIN. He had quite a little money saved, didn't he, from the +Marines? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I will tell you about this--please, gentlemen, I will have +to break if you don't. This is a very, very serious life that I have +gone through. + +I didn't answer Lee. + +This is the way I do the children. + +The CHAIRMAN. We will take a 10 minute recess now. + +(Brief recess.) + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may +continue. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Rankin, you mentioned about the $1,600. Now. I don't +know if you know for a fact that Lee had $1,600. It was publicized in +the paper that he had $1,600, which is right here in 1959. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about that at the time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, he gave me $100. And he and his brother Robert +had arrived. And I am assuming it was over me because Robert did not +help me. And I have made that public in the Red Cross papers, that he +had a family of their own, that they probably thought their duty was +to their family. I had no help from the other two boys. And he gave me +$100, and I stayed in this little place a few weeks, and then I got the +job for $5 a week. And that is Lee's defection. + +So here is my only contact with Lee in Russia, at the Metropole +Hotel--this is dated December 18, 1959. + +Now, I have settled with the insurance company, and I have a little +money. So I sent a check to Lee for $20. And this is his little +note. The only contact I had with Lee from the time of his immediate +defection until the State Department 2 years later informed me of my +son's address. And this is his little note that he needs money. + +So I would say that Lee didn't have $1,600, according to this proof. + +Now, we are speculating, as you will admit, because you thought the +letter to the school was from me. And you will have to admit that I +have given you new evidence. And so maybe Lee didn't have $1,600, +because he is asking for money there. That is when he is right in +Moscow. + +Mr. RANKIN. Of course, that is quite a while later. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. He defected the end of November. This is December +1959. + +Mr. RANKIN. But he---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. He had to make passage, and have some money. I don't know +if it took $1,600. I do not know, sir. But I am saying 5 weeks later he +needs money. We haven't gotten to this file yet. + +I will quote from a newspaper, the Star Telegram, 1959, his defection, +by Mrs. Aline Mosby, who interviewed Lee in Moscow. It says here, "I +saw my mother always as a worker, always with less than we could use, +he said. He insisted his childhood was happy despite his poverty." + +We had a very happy family. He insisted--this is the story in 1959. Lee +had a normal childhood. + +And now he is criticizing the United States. He says, "Many things +bothered him in the United States. Race discrimination, harsh treatment +of underdog, Communists and hate." Then on the other letter he is going +to Russia to write a book. And there is another story and another +story. And all kind of stories. So what are we to believe, gentlemen. +Is he throwing us off the track because he is an agent. We are talking +about speculation and newspaper papers, and so on. And we know when he +came back that he did go to Mrs. Bates, a Fort Worth stenographer, and +talked about the Soviet Union. She made it public. And he only had $10. +And he did not finish that story. And she said he was very nervous. And +he did not say he was an agent. But she got the impression that he was +an agent. This has been made public in the Star Telegram--if you do not +have that, I do. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, is this the photostatic copy of the letter +about his booking passage? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. You read the original? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. And this material on the bottom is just your own writing? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This was in this book. That is my writing at the +bottom. + +Mr. RANKIN. The letter I was referring to is Exhibit 200. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it is this letter. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 200. + +The CHAIRMAN. Admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 200 and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, this one starting, "Dear Mother, received your letter, +and so forth"--that is the one about the Marines, when he was asking +you about getting out of the service and your need, and so forth? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is the letter which shows the different character of +the boy that the newspapers are making of him--when I wrote and told +him I had sold my furniture, and that my compensation and medical was +stopped, immediately my son sends a special delivery letter, and that +is the letter "received your letter, was very unhappy. I have contacted +the Red Cross, and they will contact you." This is a nice boy to do +this immediately, when he finds his mother is in trouble. He is not a +louse, like the papers have been making him out. He might have some bad +points, but so do all of us. + +Mr. RANKIN. We will ask the reporter to mark this. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 201 for +identification.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 201 is the letter you are just referring to? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 201. + +The CHAIRMAN. Admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 201 and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Then, Mrs. Oswald, the other one that you received from +Russia, with the check and the little note from your son Lee is the one +I am showing you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark that as Exhibit 202? + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 202 for +identification.) + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 202 and ask leave to +substitute a copy. + +The CHAIRMAN. Admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 202 and +received in evidence.) + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have followed up that request and sent the $20 bill in +an envelope. And I have all of this. But I am not going to go through +all this paper. You will have all of this. + +Mr. DULLES. Did that get through--just as a matter of curiosity. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is what I am going to tell you. So I put a $20 +bill immediately in an envelope and sent it to Lee. And then after I +thought about it, I thought of a foreign money order. And gentlemen +I have all this in black and white for you, and this gentleman will +copy and have it--everything I am saying. So then I went to the bank +and I got a foreign money order for $25, and I sent it to Lee. It all +went air mail. But it came back about 2 months later, Mr. Dulles--the +$20 bill I got back in cash and the Chase National Bank foreign money +order, that check came back in cash. I will have that proof for you. I +understand it comes back by boat, and that is why it took so long. + +So I had no way of knowing that my contact with my son was successful. +I didn't know until about 2 months later he had not received my money. +And by that time--well, I didn't know where he was, because I came to +Washington in January of 1961, had a conference with Mr. Boster--Mr. +Stanfield---- + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you think he was a Russian agent at this time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not think he was a Russian agent. + +Representative FORD. I thought you answered in response to a question I +asked, when you thought he was an agent, you said when he defected. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I might have said defected to Russia. No, sir; I never +thought Lee was a Russian agent. + +Representative FORD. I meant an agent of the United States. It is my +recollection that you said when he defected to the Soviet Union, you +then thought he was an American agent. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right. That is correct. + +Mr. RANKIN. What else caused you to think he was an American agent? + +Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I might be letting things out the way I am +going. And I am very unhappy about this. Had I started with his +childhood I could have worked up to age 15 very peacefully, and you +would have gotten everything. I hope I am not forgetting anything +important. But now we have letters from the State Department. + +Well, my trip to Washington has to come before the letters to the State +Department, sir. So I am in conference with the three men. I showed +them the letter from the--the application from the Albert Schweitzer +College, and Lee's mail had been coming to my home. I didn't know +whether he was living or dead. I did not want to mail these papers. So +I made a personal trip to Washington. + +I arrived at Washington 8 o'clock in the morning. I took a train, and +borrowed money on an insurance policy I have, which I have proof. I had +a bank account of $36, which I drew out and bought a pair of shoes. I +have all that in proof, sir, the date that I left for the train. I was +3 nights and 2 days on the train, or 2 days and 3 nights. Anyhow, I +took a coach and sat up. + +I arrived at the station 8 o'clock in the morning and I called the +White House. A Negro man was on the switchboard, and he said the +offices were not open yet, they did not open until 9 o'clock. He asked +if I would leave my number. I asked to speak to the President. And he +said the offices were not open yet. I said, "Well, I have just arrived +here from Fort Worth, Tex., and I will call back at 9 o'clock." + +So I called back at 9 o'clock. Everybody was just gracious to me over +the phone. Said that President Kennedy was in a conference, and they +would be happy to take any message. I asked to speak to Secretary Rusk, +and they connected me with that office. And his young lady said he was +in a conference, but anything she could do for me. I said, "Yes. I have +come to town about a son of mine who is lost in Russia. I do want to +speak--I would like personally to speak to Secretary Rusk." So she got +off the line a few minutes. Whether she gave him the message or what +I do not know. She came back and said, "Mrs. Oswald, Mr. Rusk"--so +evidently she handed him a note--and Mr. Boster was on the line--"that +you talk to Mr. Boster, who is special officer in charge of Soviet +Union affairs"--if I am correct. And Mr. Boster was on the line. I +told him who I was. He said, "Yes, I am familiar with the case, Mrs. +Oswald." He said, "Will an 11 o'clock appointment be all right with +you?" This is 9 o'clock in the morning. So I said--this is quite an +interesting story--I said, "Mr. Boster that would be fine. But I would +rather not talk with you." I didn't know who Mr. Boster was. I said, +"I would rather talk with Secretary of State Rusk. However, if I am +unsuccessful in talking with him, then I will keep my appointment with +you." + +So I asked Mr. Boster--I said, "Mr. Boster, would you please recommend +a hotel that would be reasonable?" He said, "I don't know how +reasonable, Mrs. Oswald, but I recommend the Washington Hotel. It will +be near the State Department and convenient to you." + +So I went to the Washington Hotel. And as we know, gentlemen, there +were nothing but men. They asked me if I had reservation. I said, "No, +I didn't, but Mr. Boster of the State Department recommended that I +come here." So they fixed me up with a room. I took a bath and dressed. +I went to the appointment--because this is 9:30, I am on the phone, and +I had to take a cab to the hotel. I arrived at Mr. Boster's office at +10:30. + +But before arriving at Mr. Boster's office. I stopped at a telephone in +the corridor, and I called Dean Rusk's office again, because I didn't +want to see Mr. Boster, and I asked to speak to Dean Rusk. And the +young lady said, "Mrs. Oswald, talk to Mr. Boster. At least it is a +start." + +So then I entered around the corridor into Mr. Boster's office. I have +all the pictures of the State Department and everything to prove this +story is true. I told the young lady. "I am Mrs. Oswald. I have an 11 +o'clock appointment." Mr. Boster came out and said, "Mrs. Oswald, I am +awfully glad you came early, because we are going to have a terrible +snow storm, and we have orders to leave early in order to get home." + +So he called Mr. Stanfield--the arrangements had been made--now, the +other man--I don't have that name here for you, Mr. Rankin. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is it Mr. Hickey? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Mr. Hickey. You are correct. + +So then we were in conference. So I showed the papers, like I am +showing here. And I said, "Now, I know you are not going to answer me, +gentlemen, but I am under the impression that my son is an agent." "Do +you mean a Russian agent?" I said, "No, working for our Government, a +U.S. agent. And I want to say this: That if he is, I don't appreciate +it too much, because I am destitute, and just getting over a sickness," +on that order. + +I had the audacity to say that. I had gone through all of this without +medical, without money, without compensation. I am a desperate woman. +So I said that. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did they say to you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. They did not answer that. I even said to them, "No, you +won't tell me." So I didn't expect them to answer that. + +The CHAIRMAN. Did you mean you were seeking money from them? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I didn't think that my son should have gone--in a +foreign country, and me being alone. What I was saying was that I think +my son should be home with me, is really what I implied. + +The CHAIRMAN. Did you tell them that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In the words that I said before--I didn't come out and +say I want my son home. But I implied that if he was an agent, that I +thought that he needed to be home. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about believing that your son might +know full well what he was doing in trying to defect to the Soviet +Union, he might like it better there than he did here? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I do not remember saying this. I know what I did say, and +they agreed with me. I said--because I remember this distinctly. I +said, "Now, he has been exploited all through the paper as a defector. +If he is a defector"--because as we stated before, I don't know he is +an agent, sir--and if he is a defector, that is his privilege, as an +individual. + +And they said, "Mrs. Oswald, we want you to know that we feel the same +way about it." That was their answer. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about possibly he liked the Soviet way +of life better than ours? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I may have. I do not remember, sir. Honestly. I may have +said that. I recall that they agreed with me, and they said, "We want +him also to do what he wants to do." + +So now this is January 2, 1961, is my trip to Washington. Approximately +8 weeks later, on March 22, 1961--which is 8 weeks--I received a letter +from the State Department informing me of my son's address. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that they assured you there was no evidence +he was an agent? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, there was no comment to that effect. + +Mr. RANKIN. And they told you to dismiss any such ideas from your mind? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. You are sure they didn't tell you that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am positive. I said to them, "Of course, I don't expect +you to answer me." No, sir, there was nothing mentioned about the agent +at all. And in fact, I would think, just as a layman, that the State +Department would not even consider discussing that with me. But I mean +it was not discussed. I am positive of that. + +Mr. RANKIN. If they recorded in a memorandum as of that date that they +did say that to you, that would be incorrect? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is incorrect, emphatically incorrect. That is +incorrect. Because I said, "I don't expect you to tell me. But if he is +an agent," I didn't think it was the thing to do. + +Well, on January 21 was my trip to Washington, 1961. Approximately 8 +weeks later, on March 22, 1961, I received a letter from the State +Department informing me of my son's address, which you probably have, +if you don't, sir, I have the copies. And also stating that my son +wishes to return back to the United States--just 8 weeks after my trip +to Washington. + +Now, you want to know why I think my son is an agent. And I have been +telling you all along. + +Here is a very important thing why my son was an agent. On March 22 +I receive a letter of his address and stating that my son wishes to +return back to the United States. You have that, sir? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. On April 30, 1961, he marries a Russian +girl--approximately 5 weeks later. + +Now, why does a man who wants to come back to the United States, +5 weeks later--here is the proof--April 30, 1961, is the wedding +date--marry a Russian girl? Because I say--and I may be wrong--the U.S. +Embassy has ordered him to marry this Russian girl. And a few weeks +later, May 16, 1961, he is coming home with the Russian girl. And as we +know, he does get out of the Soviet Union with the Russian girl, with +money loaned to him by the U.S. Embassy. I may be wrong, gentlemen, but +two on two in my books makes four. + +I have many more things that can go to this, and that has been +published. I will probably never know whether my son was an agent, +because I do not expect to be told these facts. But isn't it peculiar +that a boy is coming home, and the Embassy informs me of that--I have +all this, Mr. Rankin, and you know I do. You will have the copies. And +then 5 weeks later he marries a Russian girl. And the proof of it is +that he does come home with the Russian girl in a short length of time. +And Lee would have been home 1 year earlier. But because of the lack of +money to come home. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever ask him whether he married the Russian girl +because they ordered him to? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I have never asked Lee any questions of that +kind. The only question I asked Lee was when they were living with me +that 1 month, I said, "Lee, I want to know one thing. Why is it you +came back to the United States when you had a job and you were married +to a Russian girl," and they sent me lovely gifts and photographs and +everything. So they seemed to be well off. + +I have a beautiful scarf--they sent tea, boxes of candy, which the +postage is terrific. He says, "not even Marina knows that." And that +is the only question I have ever asked my son. This may be hard to +believe. But I have explained to you over and over that I think we, as +individuals, have a right to our own life. + +Mr. RANKIN. You saw your daughter-in-law and your son living together +with you, didn't you, for some time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. They lived with me 1 month. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you think they were in love with each other? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they were definitely in love with each other. Yes, I +think they were in love with each other. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you think at that time it was just because he was an +agent and ordered to marry her that he married her? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. I would say this. This is purely speculation. He knew +Marina, and he loved Marina. They met at a dance. So that was--he had a +girl friend. We are saying if he is an agent--I have to say "if." Then +he tells the Embassy that he is in love with a Russian girl. And so it +is a good idea to bring the Russian girl to the United States. He will +have contacts. + +Now, when I was in Mrs. Paine's home, on the table was a lot of papers +from Lee. The Daily Worker I happen to know about. And many, many +subversive--now, I say if Lee is going to assassinate a President, or +Lee is anything that he is otherwise than an agent, Lee would not have +all these things, he would not have his finger in everything. + +He would not be reading only communism and Marxism, that he would be +a fanatic about that one thing and have a cause to assassinate the +President. + +But that is not the picture of Lee Harvey Oswald. Lee has his hand in +everything. + +Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by everything? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Cuba--because we know in New Orleans he was arrested +for Fair Play for Cuba. He read the Daily Worker. And the other ones +I don't know. But it was in the paper. There is plenty of subversive +material. + +Mr. RANKIN. What about books? Did he read books much while he was +living with you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he read continuously. He went immediately to the +library upon coming to the United States. He read continuously. All +kinds of books. I tried, when he defected--I went to the library to +find out the kind of literature that Lee read. But they could not +give me that information. They said the only way they could give that +information was when a book was overdue, and was out. But otherwise +they have no record. + +Now, it has been stated in the paper--maybe New Orleans is different, I +don't know, but I know in Fort Worth I could not get the information. +Stated he had books--the assassination of Huey Long and things of that +sort. They must have a different system. Because in Fort Worth, Tex., +they do not have that system. The only way they can tell is if a book +is out. But I know Lee read. And I have stated in 1959 all of this. + +Anyway, from Vincent Peale on down to anything you want to mention. Lee +read continuously. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, was there any time that Marina said anything to you to +lead you to believe that she thought your son, Lee, married her because +he was an agent? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, no, sir. Not at any time at all. + +Mr. RANKIN. You think she loved him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I believe that Marina loved him in a way. But I believe +that Marina wanted to come to America. I believe that Lee had talked +America to her, and she wanted to come to America. I say this for a lot +of little things that happened--that Marina wanted to come to America. +Maybe she loved him. I am sure she did, anyway. She said that she did. + +Mr. RANKIN. I am not clear about this being ordered to marry her. You +don't mean that your son didn't love her. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I could mean that--if he is an agent, and he has a +girl friend, and it is to the benefit of the country that he marry this +girl friend, and the Embassy helped him get this Russian girl out of +Russia--let's face it, well, whether he loved her or not, he would take +her to America, if that would give him contact with Russians, yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is that what you mean? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I would say that. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you don't think it was because your son loved her, then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know whether my son loved her or not. But I am +telling you why he would do this--in 5-weeks time. Now, you have a +5-week period in here. + +Mr. RANKIN. I understand that. But I think it is a very serious thing +to say about your son, that he would do a thing like that to a girl. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, it is not a serious thing. I know a little about +the CIA, and so on, the U-2, Powers, and things that have been made +public. They go through any extreme for their country. I do not think +that would be serious for him to marry a Russian girl and bring her +here, so he would have contact. I think that is all part of an agent's +duty. + +Mr. RANKIN. You think your son was capable of doing that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I think my son was an agent. I certainly do. + +Mr. RANKIN. Have you got anything more that caused you to think he was +an agent? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I have things that have been coming out in the paper. +And I am not the only one that thinks my son is an agent. There has +been many, many publications questioning whether Lee was an agent or +not because of circumstances, and so on, and so forth, through the +newspapers. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is newspaper accounts you are talking about now? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And as I said about the FBI. + +Mr. RANKIN. What about your own knowledge? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, that is why I wanted to go into the story. I +wouldn't have become emotionally upset had I started in sequence. + +I told you about him not wanting me to see that program. And then +the letters. There is so much. About him being an agent--all of his +correspondence with the Embassy in Moscow. I have the letters in +the hotel. One of the letters states that the Russians cannot hold +you--"the Russians cannot hold you. You are an American citizen. You +are not a bona fide Russian resident." We have the letters. You have a +copy of the letter, Mr. Rankin. + +And "if you will show this letter to the Russians, they cannot hold you +in Minsk." + +Mr. RANKIN. They would say that about you if you were over there, or +anyone. + +Mrs. OSWALD. The point I am trying to bring there is Lee has always +been an American citizen--according to all of my papers from the State +Department. + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. And they would say that about anyone--all right, I will +grant you that. You are probably right. + +Mr. RANKIN. So that doesn't prove he is an agent, that I can see. + +Now, how do you feel it shows he was an agent? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Because he has the sanction of the American Embassy all +through this affair. + +Mr. RANKIN. They would give that to any of us. + +Mrs. OSWALD. All right--so you are telling me that. But this man is +married to a Russian girl, and does come back within a short time, and +could have come back sooner. It was the lack of money. And that is +another thing. + +The State Department repeatedly kept writing me, and I have the +letters, for the money. I have copies of my letters also. I could not +raise the money. I said I had a '54 Buick car, and all I could get a +loan on was $250. They wrote back and said could you ask some friends, +or do you have any relatives--800 and some odd dollars they needed. And +I went to 12 very prominent people in Vernon, Tex.--one who is a very +respected citizen that they recommended me to go, who has a citizen +award. And I felt very confident maybe he would help me. I told him +that my son, who was a very young man, who was an American citizen, is +trying to get back to the United States, but there is lack of money, +and if he knew of any way possible he could help me. + +He said "You mean he is a defector?" I said, "Possibly so. The paper +has said he was a defector." And he said, "Well, I am sorry, Mrs. +Oswald, but these boys that are in the service and defect, I don't have +any use for." + +And I said, "Do you go to church, sir?" He said, "Yes, I do." And I +said, "Probably you go to church to put your hat on. Because here is a +boy. Let's say he has made a mistake. He has gone to Russia. But let's +say he realizes now he has made a mistake, and he wants to come back. +Are you telling me you won't help him?" + +"That is what I am telling you, Mrs. Oswald. I don't have any use for +anybody." Which Senator Tower said that he would not help Lee--made +it public. These are nice people saying this. I say the ones who are +down and out are the ones that need the help. This boy was a young boy. +Let's say he is not an agent. Let's say he defected to Russia. Yet he +wants to come back. He deserved a helping hand. I went to 12 people. I +did not beg. But I presented my case. And not a one offered to help. + +Mr. RANKIN. Didn't you understand that the State Department had to try +to find out if they could--or you or your son could get the money from +other sources before they could advance the money? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I understand that. I am trying to tell you that +I tried awfully hard, but with no success. + +Mr. RANKIN. So they were just trying to do their duty in that regard, +were they not? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It could be, yes. It could be. + +Mr. RANKIN. You don't think that makes him an agent, just because they +asked you---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think--well, as you say, they would probably help +anyone. And then again, because he is married to a Russian girl, and +because all these documents and everything are handled through the +U.S. Embassy. And because of my trip to Washington--which was red +carpet treatment. Let's say, gentlemen, if a woman gets on the phone at +9 o'clock and has an appointment at 11 o'clock with three big men, that +is wonderful treatment. + +Now, they probably would do that to anybody. I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. They might have done that---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. I haven't been that fortunate before. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, that shouldn't be held against them that they treated +you nicely. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I have told you, Mr. Rankin, they were most gracious +to me. The Administration was most gracious to me. + +Mr. RANKIN. I don't see why you should think that because they treated +you nicely, that was any sign he was an agent. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, maybe you don't see why. But this is my son. And +this is the way I think, because I happen to know all of the other +things that you don't know--the life and everything. I happen to think +this. And this is my privilege to think this way. And I can almost back +it up with these things. + +This is a stranger to you folks. But this is a boy I have known from a +child. + +Mr. RANKIN. How much money do you think, he received for being an agent? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That I do not know. + +Mr. RANKIN. You have no idea? + +Mrs. OSWALD. But I do know this, and I have stated this. I have +approximately 900 and some odd dollars. And I lost my job. That can be +proven. I was a nurse on the 3 to 11 shift, working in a rest home, for +a very wealthy woman. And it would have been at least a year, a year +and a half case. She is not that bad off. She is just an invalid. She +is going to live quite a while. + +When I returned home from the Six Flags on Thanksgiving Day, the Deputy +Sheriff at Fort Worth, Tex. went to get my pay. And the nurse, the 7 to +3:30 o'clock nurse--I went 3 to 11--and my patient cried and said that +they were awfully sorry, but they could not have me back on the case. +That the woman at the rest home refused to have me. + +Now, I was not working for the rest home. I was doing private duty. But +I understand that this is her place of business, and my presence there +might have been--hurt her money part. But this is our Christian way of +life. The boy was accused of killing the President, with no proof. And +then the mother loses her job. + +Now, that is my position. You asked me the question. But Marina has +$35,000 publicly. What she has, I do not know. + +Now, gentlemen, $35,000 is a lot of money in donation dribs and +drabs--is a very large sum of money. I question where does that money +come from. Yes, some of it could be coming from Lee's back pay. And she +might have more than that. That was the amount made public--$35,000. +And here is a mother without a job. And everybody knows I have no +money. And my contributions are 900 and some odd dollars. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, when you say that money that Marina has might come +from your son's back pay, what do you base that on? Just speculation? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am basing all of this on speculation. Sir, if I had +proof, I would not be taking my energy and my emotional capacity to +bring all this out--if I had proof he was an agent. + +Mr. RANKIN. When they asked you to contribute some money to help bring +him home from Russia, did it occur to you that if he is an agent the +government could just pay his way? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But they don't want the public to know he is an +agent. They want me to have all of this. They don't want the public to +know. I am going around to people--you brought up a very good point. I +am going around trying to get money for this boy to come home, so the +public knows. Sure, they could have given him the money to come home. + +Mr. RANKIN. Are you trying to get money now? I don't understand what +you mean by that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think, Mr. Rankin, you asked me the question that if he +was an agent, that the Government would have given him the money to +come home without any trouble. I say just the opposite. That it was a +very good point. If he was an agent, it would make it hard for him to +get the money to come home. + +Remember, I am under the impression he is coming home with this Russian +girl in order to continue his work. So he cannot be given the money +immediately to come home, because his mother might tell the story to +someone. Lee was almost a year coming home for lack of money. So then +they have an excuse to loan him the money. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever learn that he was getting money from the Red +Cross in addition to his pay--that is the Russian or Soviet Red Cross, +when he was over there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. You don't know what he did with that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know anything about that. The Red Cross from here? + +Mr. RANKIN. The Soviet Red Cross. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I know nothing about that. + +Mr. RANKIN. You didn't know he was supposed to have gotten an amount +equal to the pay he received from his job. He got that from the Red +Cross. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't follow you. I do not know. I don't understand. + +Mr. RANKIN. He got so much a month from his job in the electronics +factory. You understood that. + +Mrs. OSWALD. In Russia? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. He was not in an electronics factory. I thought he was +working in a radio factory. All right, fine. + +Mr. RANKIN. And then he got an equal amount, we understand, from the +Red Cross of the Soviet Union. Did you know that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. Now, explain to me--when you say the Red Cross of +the Soviet Union. Is that our American Red Cross in the Soviet Union, +or this is part of the Russian Red Cross? + +Mr. RANKIN. This is part of the Russian Red Cross. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know that. + +Mr. RANKIN. It is not any part of the American Red Cross. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I do not know that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Their Red Cross is somewhat different than ours, I +understand, because the Government has so much to do with activity +there that the Red Cross is closely associated with the Government +itself, while in this country, as you know, it is generally supported +by the public. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I did not know that. + +Now, one other thing pertaining to this. When Marina and Lee returned +from Russia, and they were at my daughter-in-law's home, Robert's home, +and I came in from the job in the country to see them, I said--up until +this time, gentlemen, I thought Russians were peasant-looking people, +like the public. And I said, "Lee, she doesn't look Russian at all. She +looks American." He said, "Of course, mother, that is why I married +her, is because she looks American." In front of my daughter-in-law and +Robert. He bragged that she looked like an American girl. And there is +all little things of that sort. + +As I say, I cannot remember everything in my life, because I am +going--this is way back--in a few hours time, Mr. Rankin. But there is +many, many things that come up. + +Mr. RANKIN. How does that show that he was an agent at that time. I +don't understand that. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't either. But I am telling you the expressions. He +is making a point. And what I was going to make a point--Lee loved his +work, and Lee loved the Marines. Lee loved the Marines, Mr. Rankin. +Even coming back--he was a military man. And that has also been stated +in the paper, that he had a military manner about him. I think District +Attorney Wade remarked something of that order. People have noticed +that. + +Mr. RANKIN. What made you think he loved the Marines? Was there +something he did when he came back? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He loved the Marines because his brother was a +Marine, for one thing. And John Edward--that is his career--14 +years. My brother was in the Navy. His father was a veteran. We are a +servicemen family. And I know Lee loved the Marines. I told you how he +read the manual before he left. And on leaves, coming home, Lee would +brag. He even said when he came home from Japan, "mother, my stay in +Japan, just the trip alone would have cost about $2,000." + +Now, Lee, I know also, was in the Air Force of the Marines, and he went +to Biloxi, Miss., for schooling. Lee has had quite a bit of schooling. +And Lee spoke Russian equivalent to 1 year when he defected to Russia. +I have that on his application from the Albert Schweitzer College. And +Lee spoke and wrote Russian fluently when he went to Russia. So Lee +learns Russian in the Marines. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever talk about reenlisting into the Marines after +he returned? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, when Lee returned he was with me 3 days, and then, +of course, he went over to visit Robert's house. So actually we didn't +talk. I was trying to find a home. And I didn't think he would go. I +was hoping that Lee would not go on the ship and work. I was hoping +he would stay home. We were interrupted before. When he said to me +about, that he wanted to work on a ship in the import and export +business, I started to tell you I agreed with him. And this is how you +have to do--particularly when you are a woman. A father could tell +the man, "You are not going to do this." But I went along with that. +And then the next day I said, "Lee, why don't you stay," and I went +into that--"until I settle my claim, and I can babysit and we can get +along." He said, "No, my mind is made up. If I stay, we will both be in +these circumstances." So on the third day--I knew he wanted to do this, +but I didn't think he was going to do it for a month or two. But on the +third day he came with his suitcase in the room and he said, "Mother, I +am off." So since his mind was made up, I told him goodby. + +Mr. RANKIN. He said nothing about reenlisting in the Marines? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, the three days he was home. That was the conversation, +about him going on a ship. I saw his passport. And his passport was +stamped "import and export" on his passport. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did it say anything about Soviet Russia on it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. What I am saying is that I saw the passport with big +writing "export and import." I think it was blue. I did not read the +passport, because Lee was there, but I happened to see the passport, +"export and import" stamped. + +Whether he had another passport, I do not know. I didn't ask. I am +saying this--and God knows I am telling you the truth. I am just this +type person. It is because of my life. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you know that he spoke Russian at that time, when he +had this passport? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not know. The only time I knew that he +spoke Russian is what came out in the news. But when I really knew was +Lee's application for the Albert Schweitzer College. Shall we go into +that--the application? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now, the first that I knew--no, I am wrong. It is not the +first I knew. I had received a letter from Lee while in the Marines +before he knew of my trouble, stating that he was accepted by the +Albert Schweitzer College. And that letter was in the sea bag that I +told you about, that I do not have. + +Mr. DULLES. Would you give us the date of that letter? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The other letter would have been--let's see. Lee was told +in July about my trouble. And the other letter I would say would be +about May or June. This is March 22. I received this in care of Lee. +And you see, sir, I have a lot of addresses, because I am now living in +these homes. + +Mr. DULLES. '57 or '58? + +Mrs. OSWALD. 1960. + +Let's see now. Then I heard from the State Department in 1961. + +"Due to a number of circumstances, we found ourselves forced to make a +slight change in the arrival and departure dates of the third term. The +first lecture will be held on Tuesday afternoon 16.00 o'clock, April +19, instead of taking place on the 21st with the arrival day on the +20th. It will mean that the students arrive either on the evening of +Monday, the 18th, or before noon on April 19th. This change, however, +makes it possible to end the term on the weekend of July 2. We hope +that you will still be able to fit this change of dates into your +travel plan. Should it not be possible for you to arrive on the earlier +date we, of course, understand the difficulty. In the latter case, +please drop us a line." + +So that is how I knew that Lee--I opened his mail. I didn't know +whether my son was living or dead, sir. And that is how I knew--I won't +go into all this. He made a deposit. I have all of this for you. + +He made a deposit. And this is my copies to them. + +Now, one thing I have forgotten. + +While at the State Department, the State Department told me that Lee +had gone to Finland before Russia. And I did not know that. + +Now, Lee had applied at a college in Finland, evidently, because on the +application it states such a fact. I did not know, because the paper +just said he arrived in Russia--until I went to the State Department. + +So what I am trying to say--I may be forgetting a lot of important +things, because I am just now remembering what the State Department +told me. + +I don't think I am forgetting too much. + +But, after all, I am going through a whole life, and it is very hard. + +This is Lee's original application, that you cannot possibly have had. +This is the only application there is. So this is something new for +you gentlemen. I am not going to go through it all, because you have a +copy. But I am going to show you the thinking of this young man. + +"Special interests: Religious, vocational, literary, sports, and +hobbies. Philosophy, psychology, ideology, football, baseball, tennis, +stamp collecting"--Lee had a stamp collecting book. "Nature of private +reading: Jack London, Darwin, Norman Vincent Peale, scientific books, +philosophy, and so on." + +Representative FORD. That is an application to where? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is an original application for the Albert Schweitzer +School. + +"Active part taken in organizations. Student body movement in school +for control of juvenile delinquency, member YMcA, and AYA association." + +I don't know what that is. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where did you get this copy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I had contacted Congressman Jim Wright, that has helped +me--helped me to locate Lee through the State Department. But Mr. Jim +Wright was not successful. + +I was successful because of my trip to Washington, as you know. + +And from the trip to Washington, I went to the building where Mr. Jim +Wright worked, and I went in to tell the secretary about the trip to +Washington. And that I had heard from Lee. + +Well, I had information here that Lee had paid a deposit. So I had +written the school and asked if we were entitled to the return of the +deposit, since he didn't show up. But I did not get an answer. + +So Mr. Wright's secretary said that, "Mrs. Oswald, I will write and see +what we can do." + +So she wrote, and then they sent the application and everything back to +Jim Wright's office. And that is how I got the application. + +Mr. DOYLE. They may be interested in knowing where the college is. + +Mrs. OSWALD. It is in Switzerland. Albert Schweitzer College, Chur +Walden, Graubuenen, Switzerland. "Application Form. High School. +Completed high school by correspondence." + +I have that. His original correspondence in the service--completed high +school. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is that part of his Marine work--he finished high school +that way? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +"January '58, Passing 65 on scale of 100 B plus. College: None." + +And then I read his books. + +Now, we go down to here. + +"Vocational Interests if decided upon: To be a short story writer on +contemporary American life." + +Now, "General statement regarding reasons for wishing to attend the +Albert Schweitzer College: In order to acquire a fuller understanding +of that subject which interests me most, philosophy, to meet with +Europeans who can broaden my scope of understanding, to receive formal +education by institutes of high standing and character, to broaden my +knowledge of German, and to live in a healthy climate and good moral +atmosphere." + +This is very good thinking, gentlemen. We are getting a picture now of +the boy which has been not told in the paper. + +I have read this one particular statement at three press conferences. +The first press conference was about 80 members there, from foreign +lands and everything. Nothing was printed. Then I had a second press +conference with 16 men and I said, "Now, I am tired of the things that +are being said about my family, myself, and Lee. We are not perfect. +But I know there is some good things. And I have read a particular +statement that has not been printed. Let's see if one of you has the +courage to print it." + +There was 16 there. That did not come out. I had a third conference, +and I said the same thing and quoted this. That was not made public in +the paper. + +I hold a lot of these answers, gentlemen, as you know by now. + +Mr. RANKIN. You notice the next paragraph, about his plans? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, "Plans to be pursued after the period at Albert +Schweitzer College: To attend the short summer course of the University +of Turku, Turku, Finland." + +Now, I have a brochure. This I cannot understand--from this college, +dated 1960. I have this for you, Mr. Rankin--dated 1960. + +Lee is in Russia. + +And the men in the State Department told me he went to Finland before +Russia. But this is dated 1960. I have it for you. + +But I don't understand that. + +"Then to return to America and pursue my chosen vocation." + +Mr. RANKIN. I want to ask you about that. Do you think he meant this at +the time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know. I am saying--and I am going to stick to my +story--that Lee is an agent, then a lot of this is a lot of baloney. I +cannot make it any stronger. I don't know, sir. The boy is gone, and I +didn't hear from his own lips. + +Mr. RANKIN. You think that he decided to defect after this application, +then? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know, sir, because I have not had this from the +boy. I am speculating. But I have a lot of documents to sustain my +speculation. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, this, you cannot tell one way or another about whether +he is an agent by this. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot tell by anything he is an agent, if you want +proof. I am becoming a little discouraged about this, because I keep +telling you--I did not have proof, sir. But I am giving you documents +leading to it. + +Mr. RANKIN. All I am trying to find out is what you have. You are +giving us that. I am also trying to find out whatever proof you have +about these various things that we can rely on. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I am going to state once and for all, because it +upsets me very much emotionally. And I have stated before, I do not +have proof, sir. I do not have proof of an agent. I do not have proof +my son is innocent. I do not have proof. + +Mr. RANKIN. You don't have any proof of a conspiracy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Of anything. It is just as I feel, like the Dallas police +do not have proof my son shot President Kennedy. If they have anything, +it is circumstantial evidence. I have as much circumstantial evidence +here that Lee was an agent as the Dallas police have that he shot +President Kennedy. + +"Familiarity with foreign languages, if any. Russian equal in fluency +to about 1 year's education or schooling. I also speak a very little +German. General condition of health: Good. Have you ever had any +serious illness or nervous disturbances: No." + +Mr. RANKIN. Is that correct? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. + +I want to get to that psychiatric. There will be a story there. + +"Does such a condition still exist: No." + +I don't understand this--do you? + +"General condition of health: Good. Have you had a serious illness or +nervous disturbance, no. If so, explain." + +Then he has a dash. + +"Are you at present receiving medical or psychiatric care? No." + +And then he gives as references--you have this, so I won't go into it. + +A chaplain--would you like me to go into all these names for the record? + +Mr. RANKIN. No, we can offer this. + +Did you know any of those people that he showed as references? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I do not. And that is dated the 3d, 4th, '59. And +this is another application form from the Albert Schweitzer College. + +"I hereby apply to attend the student course from April 12, 1960 to +June 27, 1960. Surname: Oswald. Christian name: Lee Harvey. Mr. Age, +20. Mother tongue: English. Other language you know: Russian. Equal +in fluency to 1 year of schooling. Occupation: Student. Nationality: +American. Exact address: McAF, MACS-9, Santa Ana, California, USA. +Remarks: Please inform me of the amount of the deposit if required so +I can forward it and confirm my reservation and show my sincerity of +purpose. Thank you. Lee Harvey Oswald." + +Well, he did, and I have this here, make a deposit of $25, which the +school informed me that they would not be able to refund, because +it would take care of any incidentals that had occurred for him not +appearing. + +Gentlemen, it is 10 minutes to five, I believe I had a full day. I +worked last night on the papers. I came early to have copies made. + +This was a complete story, I believe, and I have at least three other +complete stories. And I have a story of my life that I believe from +newspaper accounts that you will be very surprised also to know the +type person I am. But according to the newspaper--of course, really +nothing bad has been said about me, otherwise than one particular +instance. That I can prove and have witnesses that it is not the case. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, you said you had three more stories. Just +name them. Name what stories they are, so we will know what they are. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +It would be Lee's life, sir, from early childhood, and the psychiatric +treatment in New York, that I want to tell you about. + +The CHAIRMAN. Up to 16? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, because we have finished that, because we went +into that. + +And then my life, from early childhood, which you have asked, Mr. +Rankin, in a letter. + +The third was Lee as an agent, which I have gone into. + +The CHAIRMAN. Lee what? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee being an agent. + +But I have really gone into that. + +The CHAIRMAN. So really, there are only two more? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, my life and Lee's life. + +Now, I would like you to have this picture--if you have not seen it. +And I will not comment on it. I want you to study it thoroughly, use a +magnifying glass, if possible, and if you care to, we will discuss it. + +Now, this is out of the Post Magazine. + +There is another picture that I would like the Commission to get which, +is in the Memorial Issue of President Kennedy--I think it is the Post. +I will get that information for you. + +Mr. DOYLE. Would you like to advise the Commission generally what you +believe they will find out from this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I would rather not comment on that at this particular +moment. I submit it to them for them to look over all the people, to +study it. I have two. You may have that one for the record. + +Mr. DULLES. What does this purport to be of? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is a picture of the book depository the day of the +assassination of President Kennedy. And there are people in the picture. + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, is there anything you want us to see in the picture? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I would rather you see it yourself. I see what I see. + +The CHAIRMAN. What do you see? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, all right. + +I see Marina and the child--the girl and the baby, it could be Marina. + +The CHAIRMAN. Will you show us, please? + +Mrs. OSWALD. And, again, I am saying--I cannot be sure this is the +picture. But this right here. This girl with this baby could possibly +be Marina and June. + +Mr. RANKIN. And that is the girl---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. This girl holding the baby. + +Mr. RANKIN. Right next to the door? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, right next to the door. In back of her is the +hat of a man. I have started this. I will continue. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 203, for +identification.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, may I offer this? + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 203. + +And that is the photograph that you were just referring to, Mrs. Oswald? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is the photograph the day of the +assassination. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you pointed out the girl on the left column---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Of the entrance to the book depository, holding a child. + +(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission +Exhibit No. 203 was received in evidence.) + +Mr. DULLES. Do we know the time this was taken? + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell about the time this was taken? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This, I understand, was when President Kennedy was +shot. He is supposed to be holding his throat here. And this is the +car. This is right after he passed the book depository, when he is +supposed to have been shot. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well. We will adjourn until tomorrow at 10 o'clock. + +(Whereupon, at 4:55 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Wednesday, February 12, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED + +The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 12, 1964, at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale +Boggs and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members. + +Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel; and John F. Doyle, attorney for Mrs. Marguerite +Oswald. + + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. + +We will proceed to the hearing. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, did you have anything you wanted to say to +us this morning before we start the questioning? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I meant to yesterday morning. I have two or three +things that are worrying me. + +Mr. Rankin, on Monday, when I testified that I had not been questioned +officially, you told me that I had. And if I remember correctly, sir, +you said that there was 28 pages of testimony, or was it 8 pages? + +Mr. RANKIN. Twenty-eight, I think. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Mr. Doyle, as my attorney--I am very concerned +about that, because I want to know--if it is my testimony--because the +little while--the testimony that I gave to the FBI when I entered the +courthouse was approximately about 10 minutes. They immediately left to +investigate. They did not talk to me again, sir. + +And then the only other testimony that I gave on tape was the +starting of Lee's defection at the Six Flags Inn, which I would say +ran approximately 10 or 15 minutes. And that is the only time I have +testified. + +Now, if you have all this other testimony from me, I don't think it is +fair, because I should know what I am supposed to have said. I need to +know what I am supposed to have said. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, whatever we have that we are told you have +said, you and your attorney are entitled to see, and I will see that +you can. We won't delay the proceeding this morning. But you may see it +before you leave the building. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--it is very important to know that. + +Thank you, Justice Warren. + +The CHAIRMAN. All right. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, on that point, will it be satisfactory if we +furnish a clean photostatic copy to Mr. Doyle? + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes, that will be satisfactory. You may do that, yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I certainly need to know what I am supposed to have said. + +There is an FBI agent by the name of Mr. John Fain. I will ask you, Mr. +Rankin, if you have his address, or do you know about Mr. John Fain? + +Mr. RANKIN. I know of Mr. John Fain as one of the agents that had some +interviews with your son. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now, Mr. John Fain is the agent that I called upon +myself after Lee's defection. I read where the Secret Service were +investigating the family background, and I mistook it for the FBI. +So I called the FBI and he came to my home. And he is the agent who +recommended me to talk to Jim Wright and Sam Rayburn as a friend, and +to write the letters. + +Now, the one point I am going to bring out is this. When Lee returned +from Russia and was at Robert's home, Mr. Fain--in the meantime he +had come over to Robert and talked to him several times, and to me, +supposedly as a friend--he said he was not on the case. I do not know +this. But he came to Robert's home and said to Lee--my daughter-in-law +is a witness there--"Lee, I am not on the case, but I would like you +voluntarily to come to the office at your convenience and tell me +your story, because I am interested in your case. Your mother was the +one who contacted me. And I have been to see Robert. And I am quite +interested in a young boy going to Russia. And you must have a story." + +So Lee voluntarily went with Mr. Fain to the FBI office. + +Then when Lee returned, his remark was "Well, he didn't believe me. He +wanted me to take a lie detector test, which I refused." + +Now, Mr. John Fain may have the story we are looking for, you +see--because Lee went and gave the story. + +And I want to make sure you know where he is now. + +I have information from Senator Mike Monroney that in March--I am ahead +of my story. + +The FBI agents now in Fort Worth have told me they do not know Mr. John +Fain. I said I happen to know that is his name. + +"Well, Mrs. Oswald, I worked in this office 9 years, and there has +never been such a person as Mr. John Fain." + +So I have investigated. And Senator Mike Monroney gave this +information. He did work in the Fort Worth office from March 1949 to +October 1962, and then he retired in January 15, 1963. He is not a man +to retire as far as age, as far as I am concerned. I don't think Mr. +John Fain is that old. + +The CHAIRMAN. We will check that out. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have his last address in Houston, if you don't have it. + +All right. Fine. + +Now, one thing about Lee being an agent I read. + +The neighbors that were interviewed in Fort Worth, Tex., by the +FBI--this is from newspaper accounts--said that Lee always walked a few +feet in front of his wife when they went walking, and they wondered +about that, because it was very strange that he should walk ahead. I +am speculating maybe, but maybe there is a reason that Lee would walk +ahead to protect his wife. + +That is my reasoning--as an agent. + +The letter that is missing--and Mr. Doyle can verify this--the first +letter to Lee is missing, that Lee wrote to me, rather, from Russia. +And this letter stated--and it seemed to me, Mr. Rankin, I have seen it +in one of the magazines--as I have stated I have sold several of Lee's +letters. And maybe in the rush the letter got lost or stolen, I don't +know. + +But his first letter, he told me not to send him any money. + +"I repeat, do not send any money as it is not necessary for you to pay +me back. You could send reading matter. I am lonesome to read. Also, +send a can of Rise Shaving Cream, a Gillette Razor," and there was a +book he wanted to read, I believe it was 1984. + +Mr. RANKIN. What date was this you sent that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter Lee sent to me that is missing--the first +letter that Lee sent to me. And why I sent the money--because I had +used his income tax return, which was $33, because Lee was lost--and +I was destitute, and I knew Lee would never prosecute his mother for +using his money, because Lee would help me. + +Mr. RANKIN. You mean that was a refund. + +Mrs. OSWALD. A refund. And I got the refund and used it, sir. And I +also used Lee's first check that came from the Marines. And I had no +way of knowing where Lee was. And I used it. And so I offered to pay +Lee back. And this letter has been printed. I have seen it. But I do +not have it. So that is very important. + +Mr. DOYLE. As you had mentioned, you and I went through the papers that +you had brought with you from your home in Texas to Washington, and we +did not find such a letter among those papers. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. I have those letters laminated, and I +didn't give a list, and if it was taken I don't know what became of the +letter. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Liebeler said he had seen references to the letter. + +Mrs. OSWALD. References. And I am sure it was probably one of the +letters I had sold, as I told you. + +Yes, sir, you are correct there. + +Now, there is another thing that we have skipped. + +While in Dallas 2 weeks ago I had a press conference, and I called +Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall Inc., 522 Browder, in Dallas. + +Now, this is a printing shop, where Lee worked. + +Now, this is another thing. + +Mr. RANKIN. That was the photoengraving place that you talked about, +wasn't it, in your testimony? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Photoengraving place. I talked to Mr. Stovall. Now, Lee +was employed there, he informs me, from October 12th to April 6th, and +I asked him about the young couple coming to the house, if he was the +father of the girl, or if he knew of a couple who had a Russian--the +girl had a Russian father, the grandfather, as I testified. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, he said, no. And he didn't know about that. He +said--this is the part--that Lee had worked at a place prior to his +place. That is not so, and I can prove it. I was on an OB case for +Mrs. Rosenthal. We will have to get a 1962 calendar. October 12th, or +thereabouts, is when I was released from this OB case. And this was the +Sunday that I asked to get off an hour or two, and went to Lee's house, +and saw this couple. + +Mr. RANKIN. October 12th was a Friday. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Was a Friday. All right. + +Now, so, let's see where I am. + +This woman would not give me the information, of her last check to me. +I tried and tried, and told her how important it was. It was a Friday. +So then it would have to be, then, Mr. Rankin, the week before--the +Sunday of the week before then. + +Mr. RANKIN. That would be October 7, 1962. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am still going to try to investigate this thoroughly, +because it is very important. + +He claimed that Lee worked another place first. + +Now, do you know if Lee---- + +The CHAIRMAN. Let's don't--we will go into those things. + +Mrs. OSWALD. But if you don't know, Chief Justice Warren, how will you +go into it? + +The CHAIRMAN. Please don't turn this into examining the Commission. We +will go into those things very thoroughly. + +Just go ahead with your story. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, this is a lie, and I want to know about this lie. + +The CHAIRMAN. All right, you have told us. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have not finished, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, you may go ahead and tell what you want. But don't +question the Commission. That is the only thing I am asking you. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I don't know about questioning. + +Mr. DOYLE. I think if you compose yourself, if you would, and just go +ahead and give the Commission all the information you have. + +Mrs. OSWALD.. Well, that is what I think I am doing. If I am doing it a +wrong way, you will have to understand. I am a layman. I am the mother +of this accused boy. I understand that is what the Commission is for, +to get all information possible to come to a conclusion. + +And if I have found out that my date of employment is the date that Lee +was employed in Dallas, and this man said he worked some place before, +I think that is very important information. + +The CHAIRMAN. We will check on that. + +Go right ahead with your own story. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Maybe I should apologize for taking up so much of the +Commission's time, sir. + +Mr. DOYLE. Go right ahead with the business, and when you give the +Commission the facts, then the Commission will take on from there in +their own judgment. + +Mr. RANKIN.. Mr. Doyle, while she is taking a moment, I will hand you +a photostatic copy of this tape recording of an interview with Mrs. +Marguerite Oswald--it purports to be that--recorded on November 25, +1963, an interview by J. M. Howard. + +Mr. DOYLE.. Thank you. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now, one thing we have not covered was Lee's discharge. + +The CHAIRMAN. May I interrupt just a minute? + +Is that the document we were talking about just a little while ago, a +copy of which was to be given to Mrs. Oswald? + +Mr. RANKIN. That is right, that is the one requested. + +The CHAIRMAN. And the one you were speaking of---- + +Mr. RANKIN. As a 28-page document. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes--all right. + +Now, you may continue, Mrs. Oswald. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you very much. + +This is Lee's questionable, dishonorable discharge, where I come in. + +The first envelope was addressed to Lee Harvey Oswald, airmail. And Lee +was in Russia, as we know. We have the proof. And you have all of the +copies of this, I am sure. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. And this you do not have. You have a copy now, but you do +not have the story, Mr. Rankin. + +It states that the discharge by reason of unfitness, recommendation for +discharge, reason of unfitness. + +Well. I wrote to the U.S. Marine Corps--now, where is the copy of my +letter? + +I talked to a commandant at the Marine Corps and read this to him. And +he advised me how to write to the Marine Corps, the official of the +Marine Corps. And that is a copy of the letter. + +I asked--well, he will get me the letter, I am sure. + +So then I will read the answer to my letter. + +Is that satisfactory? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Mr. Liebeler is going to get the copy that he has. + +Now, can you tell the Commission when you first learned about this +matter? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It would be on the envelope, sir. The envelope is mailed, +Glenview, April 29, Illinois. But, as you see, it had gone to a lot of +addresses, because I had moved around quite a bit. So we would have to +say I got it some time later than the original. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, does this involve the question of the undesirable +discharge? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does. + +Mr. RANKIN. And did you ever write to Secretary Connally about that, +later Governor Connally? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I never did write to him. + +Mr. RANKIN. All right. Will you tell us what happened? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I wrote a letter, and was told how to write the letter. + +And this is the answer to the letter. + +I won't read it all, because you have a copy. But I have a few points +to make here. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall who told you that--the name of the man? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It was the Marine Base in Fort Worth, Tex., one of the +captains there. + +Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Told me who to write to. + +Mr. RANKIN. You don't remember the name? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. RANKIN. All right. + +Mrs. OSWALD. The letter to Commandant, Marine Air Reserve, 50 JTMGR, +26 April 1962, "to your son was prompted by his request for Soviet +citizenship. An investigation concerning this matter has been conducted +by military authorities and the case will be placed before a board of +officers which will recommend that your son be retained in or separated +from the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve. Your son, of course, has the right +to appear in person or to present any facts or evidence which would +assist the board in reaching its decision. The letter of 26 April 1960 +informed him of his rights. In view of the fact that he has not been +informed--that he has not informed this headquarters of his current +address, and that he has left the United States without permission, +it is considered that a letter sent to the last address on file at +this headquarters is sufficient notification. A letter will be sent by +certified mail informing your son of a convening date of the board. +Should you be aware of any facts or information which would assist the +board in evaluating your son's case, it is suggested that you forward +them to this headquarters. It is regretted that action of this nature +must be taken in your son's case. M. G. Letscher, First Lieutenant, +United States Marine Corps, Administrative Office, Aviation Class 3, +Reserve Section." + +Now, my letter is important. + +Now, this was addressed to me. This is what I want the Commission to +know. This was addressed to Lee, the original. Then I wrote in behalf +of my son, and this was addressed to me. + +Then I received a letter addressed to Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald. + +By now, I am corresponding with these people, and I ask for--I need my +letter. And I ask for the reason for the dishonorable discharge, and +said that I would act in behalf of my son, because I have pertinent +information to that fact. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will ask the reporter to mark this as the +next number. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 204, for +identification.) + +Mr. RANKIN. This is correspondence with regard to the dishonorable +discharge. + +Mrs. Oswald, will you look at a photostatic copy of that correspondence? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is the letter I just read. That is the back of +the envelope. And this letter. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is a very poor copy. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Is this the letter we taped? + +Mr. LIEBELER. I don't believe so, no. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I know we taped one, because we could not copy it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you read it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. "I desire to inform"---- + +Mr. RANKIN. That is your letter of April 10, 1960? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And who did you send it to? + +Mr. LIEBELER. May I say this, Mr. Rankin: We did tape that, and I do +have a transcription of it here. + +Mrs. OSWALD. "I ask for a stay of action, and I will be willing to act +in his behalf." + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald. I will hand you what I am asking the reporter +to mark as Exhibit 205. + +I ask you if Exhibit 205 is a correct transcription of your letter. + +MRS. OSWALD. Yes. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 205, for +identification.) + +Mrs. OSWALD. "I am writing you on behalf of my son. He is out of the +country at present, and since I have no contact with him I wish to +request a stay of action concerning his discharge. Also, I desire to +be informed of the charges against him. Please state reasons for such +discharge. After hearing from you, I will be willing to act in his +behalf." + +So then comes a registered return receipt, addressed only to Mr. Lee +Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, will you examine the rest of Exhibit 204 and state +whether that is the rest of the correspondence in regard to the matter +that you know about? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is addressed to me--this envelope is addressed to me, +that is right, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. And those photostatic copies in Exhibit 204 are all copies +of your papers that you furnished to us, so we could make them, is that +right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibits 204 and 205. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted, with those numbers. + +(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission +Exhibits Nos. 204 and 205 were received in evidence.) + +Mrs. OSWALD. I believe, Chief Justice Warren, I am giving information +that this Commission did not have before. I do not think they had this +return addressee, which is important, because after corresponding with +me, as Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, they sent the dishonorable discharge in +Lee's name, addressee only, when they knew he was out of the country. + +I would like to know why. + +That is another reason why I think that Lee was probably an agent. + +Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by that, Mrs. Oswald? Could you explain +that a little more? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I do not think they wanted me to have the +dishonorable discharge. + +Again, they wanted me to be upset and tell people about it, but not +have the proof of the dishonorable discharge. + +Mr. RANKIN. Don't you think it is possible that they felt he was the +one involved, and, therefore, they had to get the word directly to him +for legal reasons? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, because, legally--I am glad you brought up the +point, Mr. Rankin. + +Your copies state that anyone can act in your behalf. And I wrote, as I +read the copy, that I would be willing to act in my son's behalf, and I +was making arrangements to get money and go there and act in his behalf +because I had pertinent information. And they ignored my letter and +sent this--yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. They may have felt you had not been given authority to act. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, what they may feel and what they should do--I am +saying I am an American citizen, and I have some rights. And when I +want to act in behalf of my son, we don't know whether he is living or +dead, then I should act in behalf, I should not get a return. + +I am glad you are bringing these points up. My rights have been invaded +and my son's. + +I make that statement for the record. + +Now, we shall go to Lee's childhood. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now, Chief Justice Warren, I have pictures of my son +that Mr. Jenner would like this Commission to have, because it shows +Lee at age 15 and 16, and myself, which was supposed to be a life of +psychiatric treatment. And I am more than happy--I volunteered to help +my country in every way possible--to let the Commission have everything +that I have. But you must understand that these are very valuable +pictures, sir. I am having people wanting rights to a book, and these +pictures are very, very valuable to me. And I would not want any of +these pictures lost. Financially they are valuable, and to my story, +sir. And they are the only pictures in existence. + +I have sold a few pictures in order to live. + +But the way I have done it--the photographer had this picture in +particular--have come to my home and copied the pictures and gave it to +me back in my hand. I cannot afford to have any of these pictures lost, +sir. It is my story that some day I hope to write. + +So I was told that if I continue with the life history of Lee as a +child and show the pictures, then they would have to be admitted for +the record. + +Am I correct, sir? + +The CHAIRMAN. That is our way of proceeding, yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. So now when I show the pictures, will you personally give +me assurance that these pictures will in no way be used? + +The CHAIRMAN. No, I cannot do that. The Commission cannot do it. If you +have something that you consider your personal property, that you do +not want to give to the Commission, you may withhold it. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I did not say, sir, I did not want to give it to the +Commission. + +The CHAIRMAN. Just a minute. I do not believe they bear directly on the +matter we are investigating. They might be helpful. They might not be +helpful. But you may have the choice of determining whether you want to +introduce them or not. + +But if you do introduce them, the Commission cannot put any limitation +upon the use that it might make of them. + +Now, I don't mean by that that we are going to necessarily distribute +them or anything of that kind. But the Commission cannot limit itself +in the reception of its evidence. It must have the power to do with it +whatever is necessary to develop the facts. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I give you that power. And I voluntarily would like +for you to have everything I have, including pictures. But I just +wanted assurance that these pictures would not be exploited in any +way. For some reason or other--I am not putting it into words--but +these are my personal pictures. And I want the Commission to have them. +And it is pertinent to the story, I understand, Mr. Doyle, is that +correct--because it shows Lee smiling, and his life and my life in New +Orleans, which, I understand that the Commission is very interested in. + +Am I not correct, Mr. Doyle? + +Mr. DOYLE. Mrs. Oswald, as the situation has developed here, the +introduction of the pictures into evidence, of course, must necessarily +involve their physical copying, and the retention of the copies in +the file. The Commission itself has stated that it can give you no +assurance whatsoever concerning the use of these papers. + +I would, myself, be of the view that the pictures introduced into +the record here would be certainly used for the purposes of the +investigation and the purposes of the Commission as established by the +Executive order. + +But they can give you no blanket--or have not chosen to give you any +blanket assurance of the use of the pictures, and have given you +completely the choice that if you have any concern about it whatsoever, +that you retain the pictures yourself. + +The choice they have given you is if you wish to have--to present +the pictures to the Commission in the course of your testimony, they +will be glad to receive them, they will--there will be copies made +of them, the originals, of course, will remain in your custody. Their +purposes will be--their use will be the uses of the Commission. But +the Commission gives you no assurance whatsoever of the use, and gives +you the complete choice of either submitting them or not under those +circumstances. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, being a layman, I understand, I think, what you are +telling me, in a way. But, on the other hand, being a layman, I feel +actually I have no choice. + +You have to understand I am not an attorney. + +Mr. DOYLE. But you do have a choice, because you are not here under +subpena. Your materials have not been subpenaed. The Commission has +advised you openly here that you may submit them or not as you see fit +to do. So there is no force, no legal force at all. This is absolutely +up to you. + +The only thing that has been expressed to you is that they can give you +no assurance or guarantee as to what use the Commission will make of +them, that they will make what use they believe in their judgment is +required by the Executive order and the purposes of their investigation. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I understand. And that is why I wanted the Commission to +have all pictures that I have. + +Now, may I request something? I don't think it is presumptuous of me. +Maybe it is. + +Could I sign for my rights for these pictures, and then let you have +the pictures? + +I am afraid that they may get lost. + +The CHAIRMAN. I think, Mrs. Oswald, if you have any doubt us to whether +a misuse will be made of your papers, or if they are as valuable, +moneywise, to you as you think they are, then I would suggest to you +that you retain them yourself. We, of course, would be interested to +see them, and they might be helpful--I don't know, because I don't know +what you have there, or what context the pictures will be in. + +But as your lawyer has told you, you are not under subpena here, you +appeared voluntarily because you requested to testify before us. Those +documents are not under subpena. They belong to you. They are in your +possession. I have not seen them. You are at liberty to use them in +your testimony or not, as you please. + +But if you do, the Commission cannot put any limitations on the use +that it will make of them. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Even though you have stated, Chief Justice Warren, just +now, that you do not know if they are valuable to the Commission--and +yet I have information from Mr. Jenner that they are valuable to the +Commission, because they pertain to Lee's life at age 13 to age 16. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes, I say they might be. I don't know. I have never seen +them. + +But the choice is with you, Mrs. Oswald. You may do just as you please. +If you wish to testify concerning them, and put them in the hands of +the Commission, you may do so. + +But the Commission cannot limit itself in the use of its testimony. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I want the Commission to have this. + +Moneywise, it is more important for the Commission to know this boy's +life and my life--but also I need to protect myself financially, +because I am a widow, and do not have the money. And this will +mean--these are valuable pictures. + +I am not questioning the integrity of this Commission or the loyalty. +What I am questioning is that possibly they may get lost or someone may +somehow or other get ahold of these pictures and exploit them, and get +money for them, which has happened to some other pictures already, sir, +and then---- + +The CHAIRMAN. Not those that you have given to the Commission? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--but with another---- + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, I think, Mrs. Oswald, it would serve no purpose for +us to debate the matter. I have tried to tell you very frankly, and +your lawyer has told you very frankly and correctly, that you have a +free choice to do just as you please. And we will abide by that choice +that you may make. + +Mrs. OSWALD. May I confer with my lawyer for about 10 minutes? + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We will take a recess, and you may talk to him. + +(Brief recess.) + +The CHAIRMAN. Come to order, please. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Last night, Mr. Rankin, I read Lee working at one place +after Tujaque. I do not know the name, sir. I think he worked there +just a few days. He had the keys to the office. And, as I returned home +from work one day, another young man was at the apartment, the door of +the apartment, and said that Lee was discharged, and that Lee had the +keys to the office, and just then Lee walked up and gave this young man +the keys. + +Now, I do not know the name of the place. And I believe he just worked +there, sir, a few days. + +I read that afterwards. + +If you will refresh me, I will give you any information I have. But it +is hard for me to think of everything. + +I believe we have cleared up the business today that we have missed. + +I have decided--and maybe I am wrong, because to me money is only +good as to its use. However, there have been so many things since the +assassination that has not been in my favor, I believe that I am going +to keep my personal pictures. + +The CHAIRMAN. You may do so. + +Mrs. OSWALD. If at any time in the future that you would like to have +these pictures, I will be more than happy to have copies made and give +them to the Commission. + +There is another matter, Mr. Rankin, that is very important, that you +asked me--Governor Connally's letter. + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I had read this at the press conference. A letter from Lee +Harvey Oswald to John Connally, Secretary of the Navy. This is just +written from the newspaper article. + +"I have been in the Soviet Union with the full sanction of the U.S. +Embassy in Moscow." He asked the Navy Department to take the necessary +steps to repair the damage to me and my family. "I shall employ all +means to right the gross mistakes or injustices to a bona fide U.S. +citizen, an ex-serviceman." + +Now, I do not consider this a threat, because I, myself, if I had a +dishonorable discharge, and I was a good marine for 3 years, and I felt +like it hurt my mother and my children, and my wife, I would make such +a statement, because I am a very definite person, as you know by now. +I have been testifying for 3 days. And my son is of the same nature. +He loved the Marines, and as far as he was concerned, he served his +country 3 years. And it was a stigma to me and his children, and he +wanted to right the wrong. + +So I do not consider this a threat. + +He went to Austin. There was an article in the paper--trying to get +this rectified, and the young lady gave a very nice report of Lee, said +he was very polite. + +This is not a threat. + +This is just how Lee was tried immediately in a few hours time, +newspaper talk, and so on and so forth. + +I would state this emphatically more maybe than Lee did, if I had a +dishonorable discharge, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever hear your son say anything against Governor +Connally? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. + +But here is what I have written down. The day at Robert's house, when +I came in from the country, I, myself, gave Lee the copy--we had many +copies--you showed me the copy--I gave him the copy and told him--I had +written him and told him about the dishonorable discharge, but I did +not send any papers, because I didn't want the Russians to know. + +But when I came, I had a scrapbook, and I gave him a copy, Mr. Rankin, +of the reason for dishonorable discharge. He says "Don't worry about +it, mother. I can fix that. It is no problem." + +So then the boy tried to fix it. And this is not a threat. My son is of +this disposition, and he felt like he was a good marine. That I know. +I would do the same. And I will read it now to Governor Connally: "I +shall employ all means to right the gross mistake done to my family and +my now dead son." + +I expect to write to anybody officially to rectify this mistake. + +I have shown this publicly at press conferences, and so I will employ +all means to rectify this mistake--the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald. I +intended to do that. That is my life's work. + +I have the name of the man I talked to. + +Chief Justice Warren--I will start from Lee as baby, before I get to +this. + +Lee was born October 18, 1939, in New Orleans, La. His mother, +Marguerite Claverie Oswald, his father's name was Robert Edward Lee, +he was named after General Lee. The family's name is Harvey--his +grandmother's name was Harvey. And so he was named Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Lee was born 2 months after the death of his father, who died from a +heart attack, coronary thrombosis. + +Lee was a very happy baby. + +I stayed home with the children as long as I could, because I believe +that a mother should be home with her children. + +I don't want to get into my story, though. + +Lee had a normal life as far as I, his mother, is concerned. He had a +bicycle, he had everything that other children had. + +Lee has wisdom without education. From a very small child--I have said +this before, sir, and I have publicly stated this in 1959--Lee seemed +to know the answers to things without schooling. That type child, in a +way, is bored with schooling, because he is a little advanced. + +Lee used to climb on top of the roof with binoculars, looking at the +stars. He was reading astrology. Lee knew about any and every animal +there was. He studied animals. All of their feeding habits, sleeping +habits. He could converse--and that is why he was at the Bronx Zoo when +he was picked up for truancy--he loved animals. + +Lee played Monopoly. Lee played chess. Lee had a stamp collection, and +even wrote to other young men and exchanged stamps, sir. + +And Lee read history books, books too deep for a child his age. At age +9 he was always instructed not to contact me at work unless it was an +emergency, because my work came first--he called me at work and said, +"Mother, Queen Elizabeth's baby has been born." + +He broke the rule to let me know that Queen Elizabeth's baby had been +born. Nine years old. That was important to him. He liked things of +that sort. + +He loved comics, read comic books. He loved television programs. But +most of all he loved the news on radio and television. If he was in +the midst of a story, a film--he would turn it off for news. That was +important. + +And I have stated in 1959, which is in print, that Lee loved maps. Lee +would study maps, sir. And he could tell you the distance from here and +there. And when he was home on leave, I was amazed. Something was said +about an airplane trip. Immediately he knew how many miles in the air +that that plane took. + +Lee read very, very important things. And any and everything he could +do. + +Yet he played Monopoly, played baseball. + +He belonged to the "Y." He used to go swimming. He would come by work +with his head wet, and I would say, "Hurry home, honey, you are going +to catch cold." + +And I considered that, sir, a very normal life. + +I am probably forgetting some things. + +So then Robert joined the Marines in 1956--am I correct--that Robert +joined the Marines? + +No, Robert joined the Marines in 1952. We are now in Fort Worth, Tex., +until 1952. + +So then I decided, since I was working, I did not want Lee to be alone. +Up until this time, sir, he had a brother. So I sold my home at 7400 +Ewing Street, and went to New York City, not as a venture, but because +my older son, John Edward Pic, lived in New York, and had lived in New +York for years. He was in the Coast Guard, as a military man. He has +now been in the service 14 years, and at that time it would have been +approximately 8 or 9 years--I may be off because that is approximately. +So he was stationed in New York. So I had no problem of selling my home +and going there, thinking that John Edward would leave New York. + +But the main thing was to be where I had family. And I moved to New +York for that reason. + +Mr. RANKIN. About what date was that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This was exactly August 1952, because I wanted to get +there in time for Lee's schooling. And if I am not mistaken, Robert +joined the Marines in July of 1952. And that was my reason for going. + +I immediately enrolled Lee in a Lutheran school, because Lee was not +confirmed--he was baptized in the Lutheran faith, but because of moving +around--I had married Mr. Ekdahl in this period and so on, Lee was not +confirmed. + +I enrolled him in the Lutheran school which took him approximately an +hour or longer by subway to get there. It was quite a distance. That is +when we first arrived in New York. + +I believe that Lee was in that school a very short time, 2 or 3 weeks, +because at this time I was living in my daughter-in-law's home and son. +And we were not welcome, sir. We were welcome for a few days. But then +we were to get a place of our own--because her mother lived with her, +and her mother had left to go visit a sister. So Lee and I could come +to visit. But we were not going to live with John and his wife. + +So we just stayed there a short time. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was there any time that you recall that there was a threat +of Lee Oswald against Mrs. Pic with a knife or anything like that? + +Do you remember that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I do. I am glad you said that. + +My daughter-in-law was very upset. The very first time we went there--I +stated before, and I am glad I said that--that we were not welcome. And +immediately it was asked what did we plan to do, as soon as we put our +foot in the house. And I had made it plain to John Edward that I was +going to have a place of my own, that we were just coming there to get +located. + +My daughter-in-law resented the fact that her mother--this went on +before I got there--that her mother had to leave the house and go visit +a sister so I could come, John Edward's mother. I had never met my +daughter-in-law. She didn't like me, and she didn't like Lee. + +So she--what is the word to say--not picked on the child, but she +showed her displeasure. + +And she is a very--not, I would say so much an emotional person--but +this girl is a New Yorker who was brought up in this particular +neighborhood, which I believe is a poor section of New York. + +The mother had lived in this home all her life. And this girl cursed +like a trooper. She is--you cannot express it, Mr. Rankin--but not of a +character of a high caliber. + +At this particular time she had never been out of this neighborhood, or +out of New York. And Lee loved the little baby. And he played with the +baby and wanted to hold the baby and everything, which she objected. + +We were not wanted, sir, from the very beginning. So there was, +I think now--it was not a kitchen knife--it was a little pocket +knife, a child's knife, that Lee had. So she hit Lee. So Lee had the +knife--now, I remember this distinctly, because I remember how awful I +thought Marjory was about this. Lee had the knife in his hand. He was +whittling, because John Edward whittled ships and taught Lee to whittle +ships. He puts them in the glass, you know. And he was whittling when +this incident occurred. And that is what it occurred about, because +there was scraps of the wood on the floor. + +So when she attacked the child, he had the knife in hand. So she made +the statement to my son that we had to leave, that Lee tried to use a +knife on her. + +Now, I say that is not true, gentlemen. You can be provoked into +something. And because of the fact that he was whittling, and had the +knife in his hand, they struggled. + +He did not use the knife--he had an opportunity to use the knife. + +But it wasn't a kitchen knife or a big knife. It was a little knife. + +So I will explain it that way, sir. + +So immediately then I started to look for a place. + +I did find a place, I think, off the Concourse. I do not remember the +street. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was that in the Bronx? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Off the Concourse, in the Bronx. And it was a basement +apartment. + +I had shipped some of my furniture. It was in a storehouse at this +time. So I got it out and put it in this basement. + +Lee had his own single bed. It was a one--one great big, big room. +But we had the kitchen--regular New York type style--the kitchen and +the bedroom and everything together, but large enough--a big one-room +apartment. And there was a single bed that Lee slept on, and I slept on +the studio couch. + +Then Lee went to school. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was that Public School 117? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have that information here. + +Went to school in the neighborhood, Public School 117, which is a +junior high school in the Bronx. It states here he attended 15 of 47 +days. This is the place we were living that Lee was picked up by the +truant officer in the Bronx Zoo. + +I was informed of this at work, and I had to appear before a board, +which I did. + +Lee went back to school. + +Then he was picked up again in the Bronx Zoo. And I had to appear +before a board committee again. + +Then the third time that Lee was picked up, we were--I never did get a +subpena, but we were told that he had to appear at Children's Court. +But I never--how I got the notice to appear at Children's Court--I am +at a loss, sir. + +But I did not contact at this time a lawyer or anything. I did not +know. I did not think it was anything serious, because the Texas laws +are not like the New York laws. In New York, if you are out of school +one day you go to Children's Court. In Texas the children stay out of +school for months at a time. + +Lee had never done this. So I appeared with my son in court. There was +a judge asked me if I want to be represented by court counsel. And I +believe I said, yes, I believe I was represented by the court counsel +at this particular time. And within a few minutes time--because there +were hundreds of people sitting, waiting with their truant children, +and it was just like this--you didn't take the time we are taking here, +a half hour, to discuss the case. It was done immediately. + +My child was taken from me in the courtroom. + +Mr. RANKIN. Had he been out of school quite a bit? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. At this time, he had not been out of school quite +a bit. + +So then I was given a slip of paper--no, I am sorry. I was told where +to go, where Lee was, which was another office. + +They took Lee from me in the courtroom, two men, officers, presumably. +Then I went into another office and here was Lee. Lee was wearing his +brother's Marine ring, just an ornament ring. They gave me Lee's ring +and the things he had in his pocket, and told me that Lee was going to +be at this home, which I think the name was the Warwick Home for Boys. +And gave me a slip of paper and told me when I could visit Lee. + +And that was all I knew at this particular time. + +The child was immediately taken, and I was told to visit the child. + +Now, I believe it was--this home was in Brooklyn. I may have the name +wrong. It was an old, old home in Brooklyn. + +So I went to visit my son. + +And I hope some day to rectify this, because I think conditions of this +kind in our United States of America are deplorable. And I want that to +go down in the record. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did they tell you why he was taken to this home, your son? + +Mrs. OSWALD. For truancy, yes, sir. + +So I had to stand single file approximately a block and a half, sir, +with Puerto Ricans and Negroes and everything, and people of my class, +single file, until we got to the main part of this building, which had +a wire, a very heavy wire, partition wire, a man sitting back of the +desk, but a man in the front of the gate that let me in. I had packages +of gum and some candy for my son. And I sat down there. And the gum +wrappers were taken off the gum, and the candy wrappers were taken off. + +And my pocketbook was emptied. Yes, sir, and I asked why. It was +because the children in this home were such criminals, dope fiends, and +had been in criminal offenses, that anybody entering this home had to +be searched in case the parents were bringing cigarettes or narcotics +or anything. + +So that is why I was searched. + +So I was escorted into a large room, where there were parents talking +with their children. + +And Lee came out. He started to cry. He said, "Mother, I want to get +out of here. There are children in here who have killed people, and +smoke. I want to get out." + +So then I realized--I had not realized until I went there what kind of +place we had my child in. + +We don't have these kinds of places in Texas or New Orleans, sir. + +Then I realized what a serious thing this was. And this is when I +decided I needed an attorney. + +But Lee, I think, was approximately in that home--I am not sure--5 or 6 +weeks, which accounts for his truancy that the papers say that Lee was +a truant, that he was out of school so long. + +It is because he was in this home, sir. That accounts for a lot of the +truancy. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk to him about his truancy, say anything to him +about it, or ask him about it, how he happened to stay out of school? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I asked Lee. + +Well, this comes in another part. + +Mr. RANKIN. All right. + +Mrs. OSWALD. So I left my son that day, and I think I visited him a +couple of times after that. I am not quite sure. + +But in the meantime, I engaged an attorney. I do not know the name of +the attorney, and I wish I did. + +When I told the attorney about Lee--and I have stated this at a press +conference--he raised the roof, so as to say. He was indignant. I +cannot quote his exact words. But what he said was that New York State +picked up these boys and put them on a farm, and they pay these boys to +work on this farm for the State of New York. + +Now, I may not be saying this exactly. You may have the picture of the +home. + +But these boys work on the farm and are paid for it, I understand. That +is all I can remember, sir, about this unpleasant thing, because I did +not think it would ever come in my life, and after the time it happened +I tried to put it out of my mind. + +But now I am refreshed a little on that. + +So Lee was in this home 5 or 6 weeks, I believe. You probably have the +record. + +So then we were asked to appear to court. I went into court with this +attorney. And there, again, real fast we were in the courtroom and Lee +was brought in, and Lee sat down by me. And I remember this distinctly, +because Lee had ear trouble quite often. And I saw his ear running, and +I said, "Lee, you are having an earache." And the judge heard me saying +something to Lee. + +He said, "What did you tell your boy, Mrs. Oswald?" + +I said, "Judge, I asked him if he had an earache." + +I didn't know they were going to give me the child then. + +So the judge talked to Lee and asked Lee if he was going to be good, +and go back to school. Lee answered, "Yes, sir." And he said to me, +"Mrs. Oswald, I understand that you and your daughter-in-law do not +get along." I said, "That is correct." And he suggested that Lee +would be much better off back in the open wide spaces that he was +used to instead of in New York, where we had no family then, because +the daughter-in-law and son were not friendly with us. And this judge +suggested that. And the judge gave me my son, right then and there, +gentlemen. + +I left the courtroom with my boy. He was given to me in my custody. + +Now, that is all I know of the case. The particular case. + +From there, we went into an office where there was a probation officer, +Mr. John Carro. Mr. Carro talked with Lee and asked Lee if he was going +to go back to school. + +"Yes, sir." + +He reprimanded him a little bit--maybe not that, but gave him a little +talk. And he said, "Lee, you are to report to me once a week for +probation." + +I am going to stress this. + +I have been in this Commission 3 days. And you know I am very definite. +So I was very definite with Mr. Carro. I did not mince my words. I +said, "Mr. Carro, my son is not reporting to you once a week. This is +not a criminal offense. He was picked up for truancy, he has assured +the judge, promised the judge that he would be back to school. He has +promised you he would be back to school. Let's give this boy a chance, +and let's see if he will go to school." + +"And then, Mr. Carro, if he doesn't go to school, then you can have him +report to you." + +Mr. Carro didn't take that graciously, which is true. When you don't +agree with anyone over you, then you are in the minority, and you just +as well make up your mind right then and there, that is it. + +So from that time on Mr. Carro pestered me and Lee. Mr. Carro would +call me at work, sir, and say that he had gone by the school, and that +they were having trouble with Lee. And I went to the school and talked +to the principal and she said, "Mrs. Oswald, what happened while the +probation officer was here--Lee moved the chair back, and it made a +little noise." + +And that is what Mr. Carro reported. + +In plain words, gentlemen, Mr. Carro was indignant at my attitude, +because he was an official. + +Mr. RANKIN. What school was that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This was the first school, sir. + +Then I moved. I am a little confused. Just a minute. + +I took Lee out of the first school because the children knew that he +had been in the home, and I thought he didn't stand a chance. + +So I moved to help my child again. + +And I personally went with Lee to the principal and told the +principal--not in front of Lee--had a talk with her--that Lee had been +in this home, and that if she could help him in any way, and knew of +any friends, children his age that lived in the neighborhood where we +lived, I would appreciate it. And she did help. There was a young lady +in this building that we lived, in the Bronx--now we are living near +the Bronx Zoo. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is this the new school? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is the new school. And we are living near the Bronx +Zoo, which is 100 and something street. + +Mr. RANKIN. And this is Public School 44? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--Public School 44. So I talked to the principal +and told her about the trouble and asked if she could not help us. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, the place that he was committed to was--do you recall +that was Berkshire Farms? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, because he was not committed to a farm, as far as I +knew, sir. All I knew was that he was in this home in Brooklyn. He was +never committed to a farm, as far as I know, sir. He was in this home +all this time. And this is where I am assuming, because I knew nothing +about this--the psychiatric treatment took place, and naturally that is +why they would have him in this home to observe him. + +And, by the way, I was called one day to go to the home and a young +lady talked with me. And I sensed that she was questioning me for +a reason, because I had been on my own all these years, and I am a +business woman. So I remembered one distinct incident. She said, "Mrs. +Oswald, how strong do you believe in education?" + +And I said, "I believe strongly in education, but not to an extent +that a mother should go out and work and deprive her children of a +mother's home and love in order to make the extra money to give her +children a college education," because I happen to know that a college +education sometimes is not as important as wisdom. There are college +graduates that do not know how to apply their ability. And so to me--I +could never be home with my children. I had to work and leave my +children--which was a very sore spot, let's say. I would have given the +world if I could have been home and raised my children. And here are +women, because of material things, and because they want to give their +children a college education, deprive their children of this motherly +love, that I myself was deprived of because of an unfortunate affair. + +So to get education to that extent, no, sir, I do not approve of it. I +think it is more important for children to come home and have someone +in that home when they come home from school, and do without a college +education. I am strongly for that, because of my experience. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was Lee Oswald a good student? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have his records from all the schools in New Orleans, +sir. But we are not through with New York--that will show he passed +satisfactory grades. + +Mr. RANKIN. How about New York? Was he a good student there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think he was an average student. Yes. + +Now, I personally brought Lee to the school and talked to some of the +teachers. And they told me that Lee was a bright boy, but that he was +bored with school--there was just something there. Lee was in a sense +bored with school in this sense--that Lee was an overly bright boy, +studious boy, and he should have been placed in a school that we have +now, I understand, for special children of this sort. + +Mr. RANKIN. But his grades were not too good during this period? + +Mrs. OSWALD. They were passing grades, I would say. Now, that is what I +know about the New York situation. + +Now, it has come out, gentlemen, that he had had psychiatric treatment +there. I did not know of any psychiatric treatment there. But now I am +assuming naturally he did have it then. There is a report on it. + +I wish to say this. I am just a practical nurse. I became a nurse +because of my experiences, and I wanted to devote my life to humanity, +which I have stated before. But I do know this. I work in hospitals, +rest homes, private homes, and all of our hospitals, and all of our +rest homes, and all of our institutions are understaffed. + +Now, I think you will agree there. We are all understaffed. Every one +I have ever been in. So I will say if Lee had psychiatric treatment +in this home, there are hundreds and hundreds of children, he could +not have had a complete psychiatric examination. We do not know. I do +not know if he had a complete. But I will say that according to other +institutions, that this institution was also understaffed. + +I am going to make one remark to Mr. Jack Ruby. He has to have five +psychiatrists. Now, here is one little psychiatric examination on a +13-year-old boy. + +So, then we will go to Lee's schooling in New Orleans. + +Mr. RANKIN. Before you leave New York, did you ever tell anybody that +you took Lee Oswald to New York so he could have mental tests at the +Jacobi Hospital? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, never. My child was a normal child--and while +in New York. I explained to you he had a dog with puppies. The school +teachers talked well about him. He had a bicycle. There was nothing +abnormal about Lee Oswald. + +It has been stated also I was offered psychiatric treatment which is +incorrect. This Mr. Carro I understand is a very big man. He may be +supplying the files with all of this. But, sir, it is untrue. + +Mr. RANKIN. Then you went to New Orleans after that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. Then they assigned a big brother to Lee. This is +important to the story. + +So this man came out to the apartment on several occasions and saw the +type person I was and my son was. And he did not see anything wrong +with the child. Evidently not. Because he suggested that it might be a +good idea--I had told him the way Mr. Carro was doing. Mr. Carro was +pestering me, sir, at work, with just little insignificant reports that +I would call the school and the principal would assure me everything +was all right. + +So he thought that it would be better if I would take the child away. +And I didn't know I could do that. I didn't know exactly the charge. + +So, I said, "Is it all right? They won't arrest us and bring us back?" + +He said, "No, there is no extraditing"--that was his words. + +So, I wrote Mr. Carro a letter explaining that I was taking--Lee and I +were going to New Orleans, and Lee had cousins his age in New Orleans, +and I thought the child would be better off amongst his own family. And +the judge had recommended that if we could possibly leave New York that +it would be better for Lee. And I wrote Mr. Carro the letter, sir. I +did not flee New York. I had the decency to write him a letter. And the +Big Brother is the one that recommended this. + +Now, that is what I know of the New York. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember the name of the Big Brother? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not know the name of the Big Brother. But +from the newspaper accounts, they know the name. The Big Brother stated +how clean the apartment was, and how nice we were. + +Mr. RANKIN. And then you went to New Orleans, did you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Then we went to New Orleans. And we stayed at +my sister's house, 757 French Street, and immediately Lee enrolled +in--let's get back to this. This is in Fort Worth, Tex. Lee attended +the Ridglea West School and graduated--was promoted to junior high in +1952. In 1952 is when we went to New York. Now, we are in New Orleans. + +Lee was immediately enrolled in Beauregard School in New Orleans, La., +upon arriving in New Orleans. And here is his certificate of promotion +to high school. And they have stated that his attendance was very +good. He just missed 9 days, I think, out of the whole term, which is +considered very good. + +Mr. RANKIN. How was he as a student in New Orleans? + +Mrs. OSWALD. C grades. He was promoted, or he wouldn't have C grades. +So that is two certificates there. + +Then I have another certificate. He went to--no, I would not have the +certain, and then from the promotion he was promoted to the Warren +Easton High School. And that is the school that Lee wrote the note--am +I correct? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. It is already in evidence. He wrote and said you were +going to San Diego, and it was not your note at all. He signed your +name. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. And then, as you know, Robert was +discharged from the Marines, and Robert did not want to live in New +Orleans. So there again--so we could be a family--and this young boy, +who was the youngest, could be with a brother. I moved back to Fort +Worth, sir, because Robert was in Fort Worth so we could be a family +again. However, I moved in July, and Lee joined the Marines in October. +So we were just there a few months. + +Lee attended Arlington High School there. And when we came back to +Fort Worth, Tex., the school did not know what to do with Lee. Lee, I +think, was approximately 2 weeks entering the school. He was too far +advanced from the New Orleans and New York schools, and not advanced +enough--let's see if I can explain this right--according to his age. +He was too old to be in the junior, or vice versa. But I do know, and +I have witnesses to this, that Lee could not immediately enter school. +They had to have a conference, a board conference, because of Lee's +curriculum from school. They didn't know which school to place him in. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did he get along with you? Did you get along well +together? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Lee was a very quiet and studious boy. None of my +children gave me any trouble, thank God. We have no police record, sir, +or anything like that. And the children were always more or less home. +And particularly Lee. Lee would go to the movies, and things like that. +He was a normal boy. But when he was home, he was most happy. And I am +of this disposition. + +He could keep himself occupied--reading and when he watched a football +game on television, he would have the score pad, and things of that +sort. And so he was quite happy in his own way. + +Now, here is something very important. + +While in New Orleans, in order to go to Arlington Heights school, +which is one of the ritziest schools in New Orleans, all the wealthy +people go there, and we happened to live in the vicinity--Lee wanted a +two-wheel bicycle, sir, and I bought him one. So when school opened, +Lee went to school on a two-wheel bicycle. Can you picture this. A +16-1/2-year-old boy going to school on a bicycle, when all the other +children had their own cars? Just picture this. My children never did +want anything, and particularly Lee. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did he get along with his brothers? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, at this time he didn't know too much about his +brothers. John Edward had been in the service since age 17, so it has +been a number of years, other than leaves. And Robert had just finished +his 3-year hitch. So you see the brothers have had nothing to do with +Lee since age 13 actually--otherwise than visits. Because when Robert +came back, then Lee joined the Marines. + +Now, this is the U.S. Marine Corps acceptance. And it says "I am +very pleased to notify you that your son, Lee Harvey Oswald, has +successfully passed the mental, moral, and physical examinations," and +so forth. My son was a marine. And I understand a very important marine. + +He was in electronics. I have read--one of the marines that was with +him said when he defected to Russia they had to change the system. He +must have had a real responsible position, if Lee defected to Russia, +and all the systems had to be changed. I don't know if this is correct. +But this man made the statement, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he have any courts-martial that you knew about while he +was in the Marines? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I did not know until what came out in the paper. And I +have discussed that with several high officials, marines, and so on and +so forth. A lot of men, they tell me, carry a gun. And if you did curse +an officer, that is done sometimes, too--that is not anything criminal. +I mean we all get provoked at some particular time. I am not taking +up for the boy. I don't know what happened. But I know I myself would +be guilty of that, if someone pushed me, that I may curse him. And I +am sure it is done quite often. And I understand that Lee slashed his +wrist. I find that from the paper. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you know anything about that? How that happened? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--otherwise than what I know in the paper. I do not +know, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. What about a man that was killed, that was one of his +buddies in the Marines? + +Did you ever know anything about that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. This is the first time I have heard about that. I +haven't even read that in the paper. I did not know about that. If I +can help you in any way--his picture in the Marines--there are names of +the men on the back. I do not know what they mean. But the names of the +men are on the back of picture, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. When was it that he slashed his wrist--in the Marine +Corps? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I understand when he was in Moscow--is that correct? I do +not know otherwise from what I read in the paper. These things, how +could I know. + +Representative FORD. May I see that picture? + +Mr. RANKIN. In the Soviet Union? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And that is why, too, it has been stated that he +was possibly an agent, to show, when the Russians would not give him +citizenship, he slashed his wrist, to show that he did not want to +return back to the United States, and forced the Russians to keep him +there. That has been stated. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know that he shot himself while he was in the +Marines? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I read that in the paper. + +Mr. RANKIN. He never told you that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. And I read in the paper that it could have been +an accident. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you know anything about how good a shot he was? Did he +ever tell you that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Lee came home with a trophy, but it is a Marine +trophy--may I have that please, I need a number. It is not on this. We +have another picture. But it had Lee Harvey Oswald. But it was given +not to him, but to the platoon. And he was very, very proud of it. +Lee was very proud of his Marine hitch, because every time he came on +leave, that is all he talked about. That I know. And I am the only one +that knows this. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was that trophy with regard to marksmanship? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Now, Marina would have that. I gave that to Lee and +Marina when they returned from Russia, and the Marine book that Lee was +so proud of, and the baby book that I had all these years. And I think +it was in regard to marksmanship. + +Now, I have Lee's--they are copying all of this, Mr. Doyle--Lee's +shooting record. I have that, sir. I have anything you want. It was +left in his sea bag. And all of this was left in Lee's sea bag. + +This is a picture of Lee with his marines, and, it is a special, I +think he was doing special work there. I am not familiar--I wasn't +told that. But it is different than the other picture. Lee went to +many, many a school, gentlemen. He went to the Marine Air Force Base +in Biloxi, Mississippi, to schooling. He went to Jacksonville and some +others. I remarked, "Your brothers were not sent from here to there +like you were." Lee was in Japan, Lee was in Corregidor, Lee was in the +Philippines, and Lee was in Formosa. That has not been publicly stated. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what schooling he had at these various places? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I would think that it was special schooling. + +Mr. RANKIN. He never told you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. But the other brothers didn't have that type +schooling. And I even remarked about it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever hear your son say anything for or against +President Kennedy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. While Marina and Lee were in my home that month, and I had +a television---- + +Mr. RANKIN. About what time was that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. This was July, 1962--when they stayed the month with me. +Yes, they were delighted with President Kennedy, both. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did they say about him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing political--just "Like President Kennedy." He was +telling Marina about President Kennedy. "I like President Kennedy"--"I +like, too." + +My son has never said anything to me politically about anyone. My +son loved the Marines, and loved his work and has never, never said +anything against--the only time I questioned my son was ask him why he +decided to come home, and he said, "Not even Marina knows that." + +That was the one question I wanted to know, because of the many things +that they sent me from Russia, as I have previously stated. That was +the only thing. So that satisfied me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you know anything about his guns--what guns he had? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, this is very important, and I am glad you brought this +up. This is the part in New Orleans that I forgot about. + +While Lee was working for Tujague & Co. he started to have a bank +account, and it was in a Homestead. I do not know the name, but it was +on Canal Street, 900 or 100 block of Canal Street, because it was even +with Exchange Place. And he started to save his money. The purpose of +saving his money was to go on a tour with a young group. He was working +for a steamship place as a mess engineer so he was going around to all +of these seagoing trips. And I saw the brochure. It was sponsored by +very prominent people. There was nothing wrong with it. If he wanted +to go, that was all right--could go on this. So he started to save his +money to go. However, this was in January--you want the date? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Are we in 1955 in New Orleans? Yes. No, 1956 this would +be. January, 1956--Lee took his money out of the Homestead, which was +approximately $150, or something like that. And Lee Harvey Oswald +bought an electric football machine--cost approximately $10. He bought +a bow and arrow set--maybe about $6 or $7. And he bought a gun. Now, I +don't know about guns. I was going to say BB gun, but I will not say it +was a BB gun--but Robert Oswald will know--or a rifle. But it was not +an expensive gun. He was just 16 1/2 years old. And I am of the opinion +if he bought a real gun, I would have had to sign or something. I may +be wrong. But anyhow it was a gun to go squirrel hunting or rabbit +hunting. I will identify it like that. And then we can go into it +further. + +And he paid $35 on a coat for me. And the very first job that--the very +first pay that Lee got from this job from Tujague sir, he came home +with a bird cage on a stand that had a planter. It had the ivy in the +planter, it had the parakeet, and it had a complete set of food for +the parakeet. His very first pay. And then he paid his room and board. +I kept this bird cage--the stand was collapsible--all these years, in +the back of my car, and put it up, no matter where I was on a case, and +had the bird up until about 2 years ago--no, I had the bird, and gave +it to Lee when they came back from Russia. What has become of it I do +not know. I gave the bird and bird cage to Lee and Marina when they +came back from Russia. I am trying to give you the picture of this boy. +Would you ask me some more questions, please? It is awful hard for me +to remember everything. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember any other guns he had? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. This is the only gun that I have known Lee to +have. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, about Officer Tippit. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Let me finish about Robert and his gun. This is important +to you. + +When we came to New Orleans, I worked at Washer Bros., in New +Orleans--transferred from--Goldrings in New Orleans is Washer Bros. in +Fort Worth, Tex. So I worked at Washer Bros. Lee came into the place I +worked one day with the gun and wanted me to sign a paper so he could +sell the gun. Well, I was indignant that he came where I was working +with a gun. I said, "Lee, we will talk about it later." And several of +the salesladies thought that I brushed him off real fast. Well, now, +Robert bought that gun from Lee, and gave Lee $10 for the gun. It was +3 months we were living in New Orleans. So Robert gave Lee $10 for +the gun. And Robert used to go hunting with it at his mother-in-law's +house. I have stated they live in the country and they go rabbit and +squirrel hunting. Robert would know about the gun, the type gun and +everything. I do not know. + +Mr. RANKIN. You have told us all you know about the gun? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is all I know about the gun. And Robert bought the +gun from Lee, gave him $10. + +Mr. RANKIN. You haven't told us whether you thought your son killed +Officer Tippit. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I strictly do not believe that Lee killed Officer Tippit. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us why? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I am sorry to have to elaborate so, but this, as you +know, is very important. + +Mr. Lane and myself are investigating, with hundreds of investigators. +I have over 1,500 letters. We have reporters and people investigating +for us, that are not satisfied with the whole case. And Mr. Lane has a +lot of affidavits. I cannot say what Mr. Lane has. But he is doing a +very good job about this. And we have come to the conclusion that Lee +is not guilty of Officer Tippit. + +Now, I gave you a picture yesterday--you might have it there, I don't +know, Mr. Rankin--that could possibly be Marina and the child. We +have found out that the Book Depository Building--Mr. Lane has this +information--it is owned by the city of Dallas--I should not go into +that, I don't know. He has all of this information. Or it is a lease. +It is government-owned some way or other. I should not say. Mr. Lane +has all of this. We have been investigating night and day. + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, we have the picture, Mrs. Oswald. + +Mrs. OSWALD. All right. On the picture, then--and I have talked to +Mr. Doyle about this--you might think I am crazy to say so. The first +thing I saw in this picture--this picture was sent to me by a woman +with a letter telling me to look at the picture carefully. I did not +read the letter. I did not want her opinion, or other people's opinion +about this picture. We have a lot of comments about this picture. I +immediately looked at the picture when I opened it. The first thing +I saw was my son Lee and Marina and the child. Then when I called +this woman long distance. I said, "You want to know what I saw in the +picture?" and I told her. She says, "No, that is not what I see." + +Representative FORD. Did you say your first reaction was that you saw +Lee, Marina and the child? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That was my first reaction. And, if I am correct--I don't +say I am correct--but if I am correct, this would be the solution. Lee +was escorted out of the building. Kennedy is shot now--I will have +to show you the picture. He has passed the window where Lee's rifle +is supposed to be. And he is shot in the neck. He has passed this +particular part. He is shot in the neck. And then this man that I think +is Lee--and I wish I could swear to it, but I am fully convinced--is +being escorted out of the building and could be escorted--I am +speculating, sir--I have no proof of this. I wish I did. Could be +escorted out of the building by a policeman. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is the picture you are looking at the one you referred to? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it is--Exhibit 203. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 203? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now, this is who I think Lee is. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. There is no face. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is the man right in the doorway? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This is Lee's build and everything. The first +thing I saw. + +Now, they think this is Lee. + +No, sir, I do not. + +Everybody thinks this is Lee. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you say they think--it is the man leaning against the +side of the doorway, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. That is the picture that everybody is convinced is +Lee. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you think it is the one next to him that doesn't show +any face? It shows the arms over the head? + +Mrs. OSWALD. He has his arms up in the air. + +Now, that is what I saw immediately--against everybody else seeing it. +And this woman and child could possibly be Marina. + +Now, to explain this--whether I thought Lee shot Officer Tippit or +not--Lee could be escorted out of this building with a gun in his back +possibly. I am just speculating, sir. But there is a lot of speculation +in this case all over the world. From foreign countries I have letters. +And that is how he got out of the building. And this same officer could +have been killed, because he was involved in this, and then he could +have been killed, to be kept quiet. There is a possibility of this, +gentlemen. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, will you take this blue pencil and carefully +mark on Exhibit 203? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't mean to be telling this Commission what to do. And +I cannot do it. But I would like to have this picture printed. And I am +willing--I have some few dollars--I have been selling some pictures. I +am willing to give a reward of $1,000 if this picture can be printed +and these people come--it would have to be Secret Service, FBI, and +state their names. + +I would like to have the people here--let us find out who those people +are. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark the letter "A" above the part that you have +circled on Exhibit 203, that you say are Marina and the little girl? + +Mrs. OSWALD. All right. + +Mr. RANKIN. And "B" over what you circled as being your idea of Lee +Oswald being there. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now, that is what I saw, and nobody else has seen this. +They see the man next to him. + +Would you want me to put the man next to it that they see as Lee? He +has the same clothes on as Lee. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well--you can testify the man that other people said was +Lee Oswald, that you pointed to before on Exhibit 203, would be the one +in between, would that be right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He has the same clothes as Lee. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, we offer in evidence Exhibit 203 as now +marked with the identification. + +(The document referred to was received, as indicated, as Commission +Exhibit No. 203.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any other reasons why you think that Officer +Tippit was not killed by your son Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I do not. + +But, gentlemen, Mr. Mark Lane has affidavits. And we are investigating +this--if you will have his testimony. He has pertinent information to +this. I intend, when I finish here--I am going to be very quiet about +what happened here, with no comments. But when I finish here, I am +going on speaking tours. I am going to continue the investigation of +the shooting. This is for you. But I intend to continue as long as this +Commission is in session, to investigate, like we have been doing, we +have come up with some very---- + +The CHAIRMAN. Some very what? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Very important factors in this case. + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, I thought that is what you were here to tell us +about. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am not the investigator. Mr. Lane is the investigator. +Mr. Lane is my son's attorney, representing my son. And he is +investigating the death of President Kennedy and the consequent murder +of my son. + +And he is making tours. And we have these reporters. And we have people +giving us their opinions. We have many, many letters from expert +riflemen. And I have in my possession--they also write to me--that have +gone through this particular instance, and say it cannot possibly be +done in that length of time and so on and so forth. We have a lot of +expert opinions. + +Mr. RANKIN. Are you willing to give those to the Commission? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, we want to. This is what I say is our American +way of life. This boy was shot down handcuffed, within a few hours +time, without trial or jury or counsel, even. He did not have a right +to defend himself. So Mr. Lane immediately started to defend this boy. +And people have come to our rescue. + +When I read Mr. Lane's brief, and I realized the truth of some of the +statements he said, I contacted Mr. Lane, as you know, and we tried to +come before the Commission. + +So from now on, when I am through with this Commission, I am going to +work with Mr. Lane in my own way--I am booked in New York on a tour +next week. And I am going to talk only about the investigation. + +We have help, sir. We have Mr. Laurence Ross, who is in New Zealand, +who writes articles--very good. And Captain Wooster, is an expert +rifleman of New Zealand. He does this all the time. He goes all over. + +I am not saying it correctly. + +But he is an expert. And he said that he himself could hardly do it. +And he practices all the time. That is his--that is what he does for a +living. He is an expert. + +And we have many, many such letters. I have 1,500 letters, sir. Mr. +Doyle has seen my letters and read a few. + +We have attorneys writing us. We have ministers. We have all types of +people that are not satisfied with this boy being charged with the +assassination of President Kennedy. And, of course, not satisfied +with the way he was shot down without trial. And we are going to +continue to investigate and fight this in our own way, when I leave the +Commission, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Do you have an agent for this tour, lecture tour you are +making? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. Mr. Lane has--well, I don't say booked +me, because that would not be the word. But I am supposed to appear +Monday at Town Hall in New York--no, Tuesday, the 18th. It is going +to be a forum. There are three very prominent men going to be on the +panel. And we are going to ask questions and talk. We will have our +public support by bringing these matters before the public, because +we are convinced--and there are millions of other people convinced, +also--that this is not as plain as it seems to be, that there is more +to it. And they are not satisfied. + +We are going to continue to investigate, with the help of the public. + +The CHAIRMAN. Are you to be compensated for these lectures? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. My trip is being paid to New York. And I am to live in +a home with a family. + +As far as that, I know nothing else about this. + +The CHAIRMAN. Who does know the details of it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, Mr. Lane would know the details. And maybe you +think I am being a very foolish woman. But here. When I read--because I +have been very cautious so let's say now I am not being cautious. But +here is why. When I read Mr. Lane's brief--and I don't know, gentlemen, +if you have read it--but I believe it would be pertinent to this +Commission to get a copy. It is written in the Guardian--two or three +briefs. And I was convinced this man had some pertinent ideas about it. +And when I engaged Mr. Lane, he said, "Mrs. Oswald, I will tell you +about myself." + +I said, "I do not want to hear. As far as I am concerned, you could be +a Communist. But to me a Communist is a human being. That is just his +way of life." + +We are Americans. We have Japanese people. That is their way of life. +A Communist, as long as he is not hurting our Government, that is his +right to be a Communist. That is his way of life. + +I did not want to know anything about Mr. Lane, because I knew Mr. Lane +wrote sensible things, that Mr. Lane was interested. And what he wrote +made sense. And that is all I am interested in, sir. + +If Mr. Lane is getting money, and I am appearing, that is just fine. I +am not interested. If I can get before the public and through Mr. Lane +doing it, I want to get before that public and state my American way of +life and try to prove my son is innocent. + +The main part of this is to try to prove Lee Harvey Oswald innocent. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well. + +Mr. RANKIN. You said during your testimony that an agent showed you a +picture at the Six Flags Inn. Do you remember that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and I am glad you brought that up, because I have +notes on this, too. I have something important to say about that. + +Mr. RANKIN. I will ask the reporter to mark this. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 237 for +identification.) + +Mrs. OSWALD. Before I see a picture, see--if it was in a square, cupped +in a hand, I believe it would be better for me for identification. That +is the way I saw it. It was cupped in his hand. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, all I have is Exhibit 237, in the shape it is +in. And I will hand it to you and ask you if you recall that as being +the picture that was shown to you. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. This is not the picture shown me. The picture +that was shown me was a full face and just shoulders. This is not the +picture. + +This picture was about this size, very glossy black and white, with a +big face and shoulders. I have background here, a lot of white. But +this took the whole picture--the face and shoulders. And this door was +just ajar. And this man had this picture--and the two corners were cut. + +Mr. RANKIN. About what size is the picture you are looking at? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is about three by four--approximately three by four, +cupped in this man's hand, and the two corners were cut. The two top +corners. And a very glossy picture, black and white, with a big face +and shoulders. This is the picture shown me, sir. + +Now, at Six Flags Inn, about 3 days later, when I entered the room, +on the table were a lot of newspapers. I walked into the room in the +presence of my son, and all of the agents. As I stated before, Marina +and I knew nothing of what went on. We did not know how Lee was shot or +anything, because we did not sit down and watch television. + +Mr. RANKIN. What son are you talking about? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Robert. So this is approximately the Wednesday, the +25th--no--Sunday was the 24th. About the 26th--it was a few days after +Lee was shot, a couple of days. So I walked into the room, and I picked +this paper up and turned it over, and I exclaimed, "This is the picture +of the man that the FBI agent showed me." + +And one of the agents said, "Mrs. Oswald, that is the man that shot +your son." + +Believe me, gentlemen, I didn't even ask his name. And nothing more was +said. + +Now, that is very unusual. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, the picture that you are talking about that you picked +up, was a picture in the newspaper? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In the newspaper. The bottom part of the newspaper. I +can see that like I can see the picture. I had never seen the picture +before. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you later learn whose picture that was? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, when I returned to my home in Fort Worth, Tex., about +a week later, Mr. Blair Justice, of the Star Telegram, brought me all +the papers, that was the next time I saw the pictures and knew it was +Mr. Ruby. And it was a bottom page, and it was this picture shown me. + +Now, this is what I want to know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Tell us who was there when you said that, about the picture +in the paper? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Mike Howard, Mr. Garry Seals--well, all of the agents +there. The room was full. And Robert Oswald was there. The room was +full. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was Marina there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Marina was in the bedroom. Marina and I stayed in the +bedroom with the children. We could get snatches of the television and +so on. The children had diarrhea and so on. We were busy. + +As I picked the paper up and turned it over, it was on the back. This +picture I saw, the same picture. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your son Lee Oswald knew Jack Ruby? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I have no way of knowing that. I just hope that +he did, if I am right. If Lee is an agent, I hope he knew Jack Ruby. + +Representative FORD. When you made that statement, after looking at the +newspaper, did you say it loudly enough for people in the room to hear +it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, because they answered me. They said, "That is +the picture of the man that shot your son." + +But nothing has been said since that. That is the part that I question +all about this. + +And then I am not asked to be subpenaed at Jack Ruby's trial or +anything. + +The FBI says yes, they showed me a picture, but that wasn't a picture +of Jack Ruby, not even giving me a chance. + +I don't understand. Something is not according to Hoyle. I keep telling +you gentlemen. + +Now, I can identify this picture, I believe, out of a hundred pictures. + +It was a black and white glossy picture of a big face and shoulders. +And why I express it--he had it cupped in his hand, and he poked his +arm and his hand with my bifocals, and all I could see was the picture +and the hand. I didn't even see Mr. Odum so much. That was that hand +poked in front of me. I am positive of this. Yet I am not asked any +more about the picture. They state, yes, they showed me a picture, but +not this picture. I am positive, gentlemen. + +Mr. RANKIN. I will ask you about a list of names and see if you know +any of them, or if your son, Lee Oswald, knew any of them, to your +knowledge. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I will be happy to answer. + +Mr. RANKIN. Karen Bennett, do you know that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I have inquired about this Karen Bennett. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you know her? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know whether I knew her or not. I have asked +several people to investigate this for me. + +Upon returning from the country on an OB case. I went to work for Royal +Clothiers, in Fort Worth, Tex., as an outside sales lady. In OB you +have to wait for the babies--and I needed to live. There was a young +lady there by the name of Carol, I called her. It could be Karen. +Looked very much like the young lady I saw on the television. That is +the first time I connected the two. Her father was one of the biggest +gangsters in Fort Worth, Tex. And he himself was killed by the gangland +of Fort Worth, Tex. + +Why I know that--the manager of this Royal Clothiers had remarked +who Karen's father was, and I said to him, "I don't appreciate your +broadcasting that. I think what her father did has nothing to do with +the girl. She is working. Give her a chance to her own life." + +I am always standing up and getting myself in trouble. I want you to +know that. Maybe I am not liked. But if that makes not being liked, I +will continue not being liked, sir. + +So this is when I first started to work. However, I found out that the +young lady also had another job at night, which is all right. She was +working as a barmaid in a tavern on Hemphill Street, in Fort Worth, +Tex., and she had two small children, and so if she worked at the +Royal Clothiers during the day, it was necessary that she work at this +saloon, or whatever you want to call it at night. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was she married? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, she was not married. That maybe is what she had to do +to support her children. And I understand, because I was left alone. + +But--she and I became involved in this way. In the front of the store +was a showcase with cheap jewelry. This is a credit place, rings, +diamond rings, and bracelets. And Carol had the key to this case, and +so did I. And there was some talk about a ring or something missing. I +realized right then and there I could not put myself in a position of +things being stolen, because here was a girl who they said her father +was a gangster, and she was working in a bar. And my son was a known +defector. So I quit that job. + +Now, on television for the Ruby trial here comes the girl. I thought +I recognized this girl. The name is Karen Bennett. And I called her +Carol, it could be Karen Bennett. I didn't have much to do with the +girl. So I immediately told this story to Mr. Jack Langueth of the New +York Times, and I told also to another Star Telegram reporter, Mr. John +McConnoch, because I wanted them to investigate. + +But I have not heard anything about it. + +Mr. RANKIN. How about Bruce Carlin? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether your son knew him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I would not know anybody that my son knew. That I +am positive--because he never did tell me any of this. But continue. + +Mr. RANKIN. Robert Kermit Patterson, also known as Bobby Patterson? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Donald C. Stuart? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Charles Arndt? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. James A. Jackson? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, you know, a few of those names sound to me like they +might be on the back of both of these pictures. I am not sure. + +Mr. RANKIN. They are supposed to be associates or friends or people +that Mr. Ruby knew and associated with closely. + +Stanley or Katya Skotnicki? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Larry Crafard, or Crawford? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember that name? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I was trying to connect the name with a couple. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he ever spent any time in the Silver +Spur? + +Mrs. OSWALD. If Lee ever did? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have had no knowledge of Lee for 1 year. None whatsoever. + +Mr. RANKIN. And before that do you know whether he spent any time in +the Silver Spur in Dallas? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. + +And before that, as to what I do know, that Lee did not drink and Lee +did not smoke, and Lee wasn't the type--not that he did not maybe go +into saloons--but from what I know of him, he did not go into places +like that of his own. If he was working he might have gone into these +places. + +Mr. RANKIN. These are the nightclubs Jack Ruby was associated with. You +recognize that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't. + +Mr. RANKIN. And the Vegas Club was another one. Do you know whether he +spent time there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I would have no way of knowing. + +Mr. RANKIN. And the Sovereign Club? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have no way of knowing. I am going to say, again, Mr. +Lane would have ways of knowing about all these clubs and everything, +because that is his part of our investigation. I would like to get back +to Patrolman Tippit. + +Mr. RANKIN. All right. I just want to try to cover this book about Lee +Oswald's marksmanship. That has been marked Exhibit 238. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 238, for +identification.) + +Mr. RANKIN. It is a book that you brought here. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was left in his sea bag, when he came home from +the Marine Corps. + +Mr. RANKIN. And that reads, "U.S. Marine Corps Score Book, Oswald, L. +H." + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is your son's? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. That is his platoon, 2060, that is the +one he got the trophy with. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were the various marks in that book in pencil that you see +there in the book when you first found it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have not touched the book. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is it in the same condition? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is the same condition that it was in his sea bag. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 238, and ask leave to +substitute a copy. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be introduced. + +(The document heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 238 was +received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, will you mark this 239? + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 239 for +identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald. I will ask you to glance through Exhibit 239 +and state whether or not that appears to be photostatic copy of---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is the photostatic copy---- + +Mr. RANKIN. Of Exhibit 238? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you will see it has the same markings. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. RANKIN. This is a copy we will substitute. + +Now, do you want to tell about the shooting of Officer Tippit? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I have many, many clippings--as I say, we have all +these people working. And we have come to the conclusion, and have +never seen where they had an autopsy on Patrolman Tippit or even his +gun or anything. In other words, Patrolman Tippit's life has been quiet +from the very beginning after the shooting. I have never seen anything +about him in print. And we question where all the money that has been +given to Mrs. Tippit has come from. That is a tremendous amount of +money--tremendous for donations. + +The CHAIRMAN. You say you question the money? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; the donations to Mrs. Tippit. + +The CHAIRMAN. You mean you question whether she received them or not? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No--where is the money coming from? As far as she knows, +sir, they are donations. But where is the actual money coming from, +because it is such a large amount? Like I question Marina's money. She +has now $38,000. That is just what they have stated she has. What she +has may be more. But that is a lot of money for donations, a tremendous +lot of money. + +And Mrs. Tippit has, I think, almost half a million dollars. Is that +correct? I am not quite sure. But, anyhow, it is a large amount of +money. And with our investigation and things that are not according to +Hoyle, we do question where the money is coming from. + +The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any idea where it comes from, after your +investigation? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Mr. Lane has. I do not have all the information. +He has this information. And we are still investigating it, sir. And +we will investigate if it takes another year or two. We are going to +continue to arrive at the truth. + +Mr. RANKIN. You referred to an article in the Time Magazine of February +14, 1964, volume 83, No. 7, when you said there were some things that +were wrong in it--do you remember that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you write a letter about this assassination of +President Kennedy to President Johnson at some time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I never have. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you send a telegram? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. The only telegram I sent to President Johnson was +stating that I had sent a telegram to you and Chief Justice Warren, if +you remember. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you get any response from the White House? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not get a response from the White House. +And I am indignant at the response that I did get. What it did was +to inform me, I was so graciously treated by Mr. Kennedy and his +Administration, as I have stated and testified, that I am shocked that +I am now to be told that I am not to worry the President. "In response +to your telegram to the President, I wish to inform you that any +requests or any information dealing with the inquiry conducted by Chief +Justice Warren should properly be directed to the Commission. I note in +your telegram that you have directed your request to the Chief Justice +and to Mr. Rankin, the Commission's General Counsel. Sincerely, Lee C. +White, Assistant Special Counsel to the President." + +Mr. RANKIN. That is the response that you received from the White House? + +Mrs. OSWALD. From the telegram that I sent, when I sent a telegram to +you and Chief Justice Warren--I sent him a telegram. I have it right +here, sir. You don't know about the telegram. + +Here is a copy of the telegram. + +"President Lyndon B. Johnson. I have sent night letters to Chief +Justice Earl Warren and J. Lee Rankin imploring both in the name of +justice and our American way of life to let my son Lee Harvey Oswald be +represented by counsel so that all witnesses including my son's widow +will be cross-examined. Respectfully yours, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald." + +And this is the response to that. And I don't think that is a gracious +response at all. If I want to write the President or send him a +telegram, I think I have as much right as anyone else to do so. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you comment on the fact of this response from the White +House when you received it to anybody? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. There was a reporter from Time Magazine that I +commented to, because I was indignant, as I said. And he said, "Well, +if you or your next door neighbor or anybody walking in the street +wanted to write the President, that is our American way of life." And I +agreed with him. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, you are quoted in this article as saying "Why, I have +got as much right as any citizen to write the President of the United +States, to petition him, and let me tell you this, Mr. Johnson should +also remember that I am not just anyone, and that he is only President +of the United States by the grace of my son's action." Is that a +correct quote? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, that is not a correct quote. And that is why I was +indignant yesterday when I read that. And there is more discrepancies. + +I did tell him about receiving the letter, and I had just received +it--that I was indignant they should write and as much intimate that I +should not write the President. + +I made a special appeal to the President. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what you did say? Did you say anything like +this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. There was nothing said to this reporter about +President Johnson--because I believe my son is innocent. So if I say +that, then I would be saying that my son is guilty. And that is why the +President is now the President. No, sir. I did not say that. + +Mr. RANKIN. What reporter for Time Magazine was that that you were +talking to? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I can find out the name for you, or I can think about it. +Let's see. I think the name is Sullivan. I did not want to think--but I +think it is Sullivan. Do you have that information? + +Mr. RANKIN. No. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I will get it for you, or maybe it will come to me. + +Mr. RANKIN. All right. + +Mrs. OSWALD. But I do know, because I was paid for the picture--one of +the pictures in that magazine. + +Mr. RANKIN. We would appreciate your telling us as accurately as you +can. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I want to give you any and every information I can. + +The CHAIRMAN. Did the man who interviewed you in this matter also pay +for the picture--the same man? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes sir--for the Time Magazine. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he pay you for any part of the story? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No sir. No, I am wrong there, he did. He paid me for part +of the story. That is not the story. + +This isn't the story that was supposed to have come out. It was a much +nicer and softer story. But we have found out that when we give these +press notices, that they don't come out the way you give them. And they +explain--like if I was to tell Mr. Sullivan, "I am disappointed in +your story"--"Well, Mrs. Oswald, our editor edits to make room," and +so on. That is what you get. I was disappointed in the story, because +the story was that I felt so sorry for Marina, to think that she had to +go through the rest of her life thinking in her mind that her husband +was the killer of President Kennedy, and that she would have to tell +her children that she had gone down in history, that their father was +the killer of President Kennedy. And I went on with a long story. I +said--they said "Marina had stringy hair, and she didn't have this or +that." Let me tell you, I would rather have Marina with the stringy +hair and less clothes, but thinking that her husband was innocent, like +she thought the 3 days I was there--rather than the picture now, where +she smokes, she no longer nurses her baby, she left her baby in Texas +to come to the Warren Commission, which is not the Marina I know. + +"Marina, Mama, no, no, she never left her children." And well groomed. +But she thinks now her husband shot President Kennedy. What an awful +thing. I would much rather have no money and stringy hair and be the +girl I was before, and believe my husband was innocent. + +The CHAIRMAN. How much did Life pay you for your story? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Is that pertinent? + +The CHAIRMAN. Or Time, rather. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Is that pertinent to the Commission, or is that my +personal? + +Mr. DOYLE. I don't think the Chief Justice--he has simply asked you +a question. If you wish to answer the question that is fine. If you +don't, if you tell the Chief Justice you don't wish to answer the +question---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, it doesn't have any bearing. I think the amount I +got would be immaterial to the Commission. I don't know. + +The CHAIRMAN. Well. I think it might be material under some +circumstances. But if she doesn't wish to tell us, that is all right. + +Mrs. OSWALD. It is not--just like the pictures. I want you to have the +pictures. And you didn't seem to think they were important enough. + +I am asking if this is important to the Commission, because that is my +personal life. It is no crime to sell the pictures. I have no job or +income. If I want to sell a picture to a magazine or a newspaper, and +protect myself financially, I am going to continue to do that. + +Mr. DOYLE. The Commission has stated to you that it would be interested +in knowing, that it feels it might be of some value to them. But if you +do not wish to say anything about it, they would not press you. + +So again, it would be completely up to you. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think that would probably, like these pictures, be my +personal---- + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn about the attempt of your son to shoot +General Walker? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am delighted you asked me that question. I have these +notes here, and didn't go through that. + +The first time I knew about General Walker was through the paper. + +Now, I became indignant. I do not remember the quotes. But why I became +indignant, was that I had Lee's handwriting in Russian. But no one came +to me to find out about this note. That is the part, gentlemen, that is +so peculiar about this whole thing. + +I understand through reporters that the note was shown to Mrs. Ruth +Paine, and wanted to know if the handwriting was Lee's handwriting. But +no one has come to find out if I had any handwriting of Lee in Russian, +which I have. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you think this was in Russian? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I am under the impression that the note was in +Russian. It stated in the paper. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn about the Walker incident? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Through the newspaper. And it has been changed, the story, +now. If I can remember. Now, I will get this for you. I have a friend +that has one of the most complete scrapbooks in the United States, that +helps in this investigation. And I can get all these articles, sir. And +I will help in every way possible. + +If I remember correctly, it was stated that Marina found this note in +the room that says "I may be arrested, and if so get in touch with the +Russian consul" and told her where to go to the jailhouse. I wish I +knew the exact quote. So we are getting back to an agent now. + +From what I remember in the beginning, he did not say in the note that +he was going to kill General Walker--that he would be involved in +something that might cause him to be arrested and so on. I remember +this. That was in the very beginning, sir. It came out in Fort Worth, +Tex. + +So he is going to be involved in something. That doesn't mean he is +going to shoot General Walker. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn that he did try to shoot General Walker? + +Mrs. OSWALD. As the story started to leak out from the paper, what we +call leaks. I have to say this, because we are investigating this. I +am not the main investigator. But I talk to people. They call, and I +get letters from them. Every now and then Mr. Jim Martin, who is the +business manager for Marina, would quote Marina--not Marina, but he +would quote Marina about General Walker, quoted her about thinking in +her mind that her husband had killed the President. + +And I was firing back through the newspapers and saying Mr. Jim Martin +was an American citizen, and I didn't appreciate him quoting my +daughter-in-law about these things, because they are of no advantage. +How can they prove that Lee had killed General Walker, because now +maybe they would not have the bullets--and so on. It happened before. + +Mr. RANKIN. You knew that he was not killed. + +Mrs. OSWALD. What good would it be for Mr. Martin to make a statement +like this that Marina said, and publicize it, when they possibly could +not now prove that Lee had anything to do with it, gun or bullets or +anything. I could not see his purpose in doing this--which has hurt my +daughter-in-law very much. I have many letters from people expressing +their opinion that they did not appreciate her coming out with these +remarks. But it is Mr. Jim Martin. + +Marina is a foreign girl, and doesn't know what these people are doing +to her, Mr. Rankin. I have publicly fought this over and over--if +you have my quotes from the Fort Worth Star Telegram and so on, and +probably the New York papers. I deeply feel sorry for Marina. Marina is +a Russian girl. Maybe if her husband was picked up to be a murderer, +maybe they would shoot him in Russia. I don't know. + +But here we have an American way of life that Marina is not familiar +with. + +Mr. RANKIN. Don't you want her to tell the truth about it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I want Marina to tell the truth just like I want to tell +the truth. But from my testimony here, I have found out that Marina has +lied. + +Mr. RANKIN. What have you found out about the Walker incident? Have you +found anything about that was untrue that Marina said? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That Marina said it? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have not heard Marina say it. I have not heard Marina +say it. I can answer this way. This comes from Mr. Jim Martin. There +is many, many things about Mr. Jim Martin and Mr. Thorne that I don't +think maybe it is right that I should say these things in front of the +Commission, because they are rumors. + +But a rumor, you will have to, in a case as big as this, and where +there are so many people involved, you have to analyze these rumors. I +will say this: I understand from many, many a source that the Dallas +Bar Association is going to have Mr. Jim Thorne before them. Now that +is my understanding there. + +Mr. RANKIN. So all you know about the Walker incident is what you have +read in the papers. + +Mrs. OSWALD. What I have read in the paper. And I certainly did not +appreciate that. Mr. Jim Martin is a citizen, if Marina is not. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, did you ever ask your son, Lee Oswald, whether he was +an agent of anybody? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No sir, I have never asked Lee Oswald if he was an agent +because I felt like he would not tell me. + +Mr. RANKIN. But you have not asked him. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I have not asked him. + +Oh, one very important thing that I must tell you. On November 26--that +was the night of November 26, and the day of November 26 was when I +found out that Marina was going to live with someone else, and we +had no contact. So I knew I wasn't wanted or involved. I was in the +bedroom. And I left the Inn of the Six Flags, gentlemen, under strict +security protection. I opened the door and had my coat and pocketbook, +and I went out doors. And I was about 15 feet when they realized that +I had left the Inn. Now, there was a man on the outside, stationed +there night and day. But there was a little arbor. And this was in +the bedroom. We had two entrances--one to the living room and one to +the bedroom. I opened the bedroom door. I had my coat and bag and I +was going to go home. I was going to take a bus and go home because I +didn't get to talk to my daughter-in-law--they had taken over. + +And I was 15 or 20 feet when two agents came and took me by the arm +and I went back in. I didn't make a stink or anything about it. And +that night I sat up all night, and the next morning I insisted upon +going home. But the point that has to be made is was I under arrest or +not--since these men came and took me by the arm and brought me back to +the Inn of the Six Flags. + +The CHAIRMAN. Were you all dressed to go home when they took hold of +you that way? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, when they took hold of me this way. And I didn't +say anything. I just went back in. So then the doctor--I do not know +his name, you have his name--the doctor came in to see the children, +they had diarrhea. And the man whispered something to the doctor. And +we closed the door. The doctor asked me for Lee's social security +number. And I have testified that I had gone home the night before to +get all my papers, after much persuasion. I started to look through the +papers for Lee's number. And I started to cry. He and I were in the +room alone. I think this was purposely, because they said something to +the doctor. + +I said I am very upset and told the doctor what happened. And I said +"You know, my heart is breaking. I cannot understand how they would do +something like that, and not tell me about it." + +So he talked with me, and he gave me two pills. When we opened the +door he said to the agents "She is all right, she has a right to her +feelings." So they must have thought that I was--something was wrong +with me. They thought--because I took the attitude immediately--well, +Robert said it--I said "Why didn't you let me know." "Well, just +because the way you are acting now." I said "How am I acting. I +am acting in a normal way. I have lost my son. Now you have made +arrangements without consulting me to take my daughter and two +grandchildren to live with strangers. This is a normal reaction. Am I +going to say yes, take my daughter-in-law and grandchildren, I don't +need my part of them." + +This is a normal reaction. + +Reverend Saunders, Louis Saunders, who is a minister at the grave, +accidentally came at the very last minute. He had not preached a sermon +in 8 years. He is head of the Council of Churches. + +He heard we could not get a minister so he was able to come at the very +last minute. And Rev. Granville Walker was sent to my home in Fort +Worth, Tex., the next day after I arrived home, to help, to console me +about this case. So he said "Mrs. Oswald, I understand that Marina has +been offered a very fine home, and how do you feel about that. Are you +not glad that your daughter-in-law is going to be taken care of and the +children have an education." + +I said "No, Reverend Saunders, I do not feel that way about it. Those +are material things. How do we know if these children will live to +derive any benefit from this education. I think that we should stick +together as a family. Her Mama, like she wanted. The girl said she has +no Mama. Everything was arranged for the Mama. She is talking about +money and material things. I expressed my opinion at the Six Flags, +that we start with $863--no contributions were coming in. And then if +we cannot make it, then let the ones that are so concerned help us. And +I remarked--I am working for a very wealthy woman. + +Who knows, maybe she will give us $5,000. Let us stick together as a +family. Reverend Saunders says "Mrs. Oswald, your philosophy of life +is beautiful, and it is a Biblical way. But you know you have to be +practical." + +So the very next day, sir--and this is in "Christianity Today," to +prove my point--Mr. Jim Cox, who writes for "Christianity Today" and +is a Star Telegram reporter called me and said "Mrs. Oswald, Reverend +Saunders called me and wanted me to get a story from you, because he +thought you had such a wonderful philosophy of life." + +I sat down, and Mr. Jimmy Cox stayed home from Church--I gave Mr. Jimmy +Cox a story that is in Christianity Today, that only goes to ministers, +and it is because of Reverend Saunders. So I do have people to testify +about this particular thing. And I did act in a normal way. That is a +normal reaction, to not want to give up my family. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald. I will give you Exhibits 206 through 227, both +inclusive, and ask you if that is--if those are photostatic copies of +your correspondence--would you look at each one of them--with the State +Department that you have referred to in your testimony? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Do you want the numbers as I go along? + +Mr. RANKIN. No. You just look at them. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Representative FORD. These are copies, Mr. Rankin, of her letters to +the State Department and the responses? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes, that is correct, is it not, Mrs. Oswald? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct. + +Mr. RANKIN. And these copies were made under your supervision were they +not. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. And I voluntarily gave you every copy I +have. That is correct. That is correct. That is correct. + +Some of this seems to be scratched out here. + +Mr. DOYLE. On Exhibit No. 221, there seems to be some X markings +around. Will you put that aside, and we can compare that with the +original. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is correct. That is correct. That is correct. I +don't remember writing to Mrs. James. I remember calling her on the +telephone. This is my handwriting. I guess I did. + +Yes, that is my handwriting. That is correct. + +That is correct. That is correct. And this is correct, but should have +a card with it. + +Mr. DOYLE. You are referring to 227? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And it should have with it a card, a postcard, from +Lee. + +Mr. DOYLE. Set 227 aside with 221. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you have a copy of 221? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you please check to see that is a correct copy. + +Mr. Chairman, I think that we might gain time now if we would check +these exhibits out with Mrs. Oswald, and be able to offer them at +whatever time we reconvene. That is all we propose to do now. + +The CHAIRMAN. All right. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is the card that should have gone with that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, were you able to find your copy of Exhibit +221, and compare it and see whether that which is marked on is on your +copy? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No sir, we have not found that yet. + +"Yours 11th" is scratched out. + +Mr. RANKIN. So that 221 is correct, but apparently there are some +errors---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. There are more errors, too. Because it doesn't say +"Services Department of State." + +Mr. DOYLE. 221 does not appear to be a photostat of the exhibit. + +Mr. RANKIN. But it does have exactly the same material on it, doesn't +it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It doesn't have this--"collect." I would not say it was an +exact copy. + +Mr. DOYLE. It appears to have substantially the information on it. It +is not a photostat of it. + +Mr. RANKIN. I might advise you, Mrs. Oswald, this is from the State +Department's file, from which the telegram was made up that was sent to +you. + +Mr. DOYLE. It is not a photostat, but it does have substantially the +information that is set forth in the telegram itself. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, you have examined all of the exhibits, 206 through +227, both inclusive, and found them, except for what you and your +counsel said about exhibit 221, and the card that was with 227, to be +correct. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 206 through 227, both +inclusive. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. + +(Commission Exhibit Nos. 206 through 227, heretofore marked for +identification, were received in evidence.) + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is the card that goes with this letter, as an +explanation. + +(The card referred to was marked Exhibit No. 240 for identification.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 240 is the card you have just referred to that goes +with Exhibit 227, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 240, and ask that a copy be +substituted. + +The CHAIRMAN. That may be admitted. + +(The card referred to was received in evidence as Commission Exhibit +No. 240.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, would you examine exhibits 228 through +236, both inclusive? And tell us whether or not those appear to be +photostatic copies of correspondence about the Albert Schweitzer +College and application? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right. That is right. This is correct. That +is right. That is right. That is right. That is right. That is right. +That is right. That is right. That is right. That is right. + +Those are all right, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. You have just finished comparing Exhibits 228 through 236 +both inclusive, and found them to be correct photostatic copies of your +files concerning the Albert Schweitzer matter? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence, Exhibits 228 through 236 both +inclusive. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. + +(The photostatic copies referred to were received in evidence as +Commission Exhibit Nos. 228 through 236, inclusive.) + +The CHAIRMAN. Have you introduced all the records you have now? + +Mr. RANKIN. Just a few more, Mr. Chairman. + +(The document referred to was marked 241 for identification.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I hand you Exhibit 241 and ask you if that is +one of the letters that you referred to in your testimony? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. RANKIN. And it is one that you received? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It is one that I received in a letter from Russia, from +Lee. And you have the letter, telling me to go to the International +Rescue Committee, and to show the papers to the Red Cross in Vernon. +This is the letter inclosed in that letter. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 241, and ask leave to +substitute a copy. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The letter referred to was received in evidence as Commission Exhibit +No. 241.) + +(Documents marked 242 and 243 for identification.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Exhibits 242 and 243 are the telegram and the letter you +received back from your transmission to the White House that you have +testified about this morning, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you say you would like to have the originals back? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 242 and 243 and ask leave to +substitute copies. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted on that condition. + +(Commission Exhibits Nos. 242 and 243 were admitted in evidence.) + +The CHAIRMAN. Are all the records identified now and admitted, Mr. +Rankin? + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, we have one further matter, and that is some +correspondence that involves her son's communications with the Embassy, +which correspondence was examined in the presence of Mr. Mark Lane when +we were taking photostatic copies. And during that examination, Mrs. +Oswald was able to identify the handwriting on part of them, and not +able to identify it on another part. Is that right, Mrs. Oswald? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is right; yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. And we think we should probably, to cover that matter, ask +her briefly to point those out. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Let's get that done before we adjourn, and +then we will adjourn for lunch. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to mark these exhibits, which +are the ones that I understand Mrs. Oswald was able to identify the +handwriting on. + +(Documents were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 244 through 250 for +identification.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, will you examine Exhibits 244 through 250, +both inclusive, and tell us whether or not those are photostatic copies +of communications of your son that you recognize the handwriting on of +the originals? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DOYLE. If you do not on any one of them, announce the number. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is one I would believe that I have stated--if he +wrote it, he wrote it very careful. It is not scribbled like he usually +does. + +Mr. DOYLE. That is 246. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell whether or not that is his signature on the +second page of Exhibit 246? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It is just a little different. That could be forged. Just +a little difference. We write left handed, and we have a trend. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is that one that you said before that you thought you could +recognize? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know, sir. I have no way of knowing. How would I +know? + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize the handwriting now? + +Mrs. OSWALD. As I have stated before, when I am looking at it, it +doesn't appear to be immediately as Lee's handwriting. But it could +be something that he has recopied over and over to get such a perfect +lettering. It is not scribbled like we usually scribble. Now, this was +one also that I would say---- + +Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 247. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is scribbled. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is more scribbled, you say? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It is not quite as his ordinary writing. It is a little +more thoughtfully written. + +Mr. RANKIN. You think it is his, though? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I would say this is his. + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now, this is thoughtfully written, too, yet it is his. + +Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 248. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am looking at this handwriting, because the rest of it +is printed. I do not know too much about Lee's printing. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell about the handwriting? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The signature looks like Lee's signature. + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I will state again this looks like Lee's handwriting, but +very thoughtfully written. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 249. Is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. And this is Lee's signature. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 250 that you just referred to? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Now, I would say it is all Lee's handwriting, +but very thoughtfully written. + +Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. We offer in evidence Exhibits 244 through 250, +both inclusive. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. + +(The documents referred to were received in evidence as Commission +Exhibits Nos. 244 through 250, inclusive.) + +(A group of documents was then marked 251 through 258 for +identification.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will hand you Exhibits 251 through 257, +both inclusive, and ask you to examine those, and state whether you +recognize the handwriting. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That doesn't look too much like Lee's handwriting. It +could be a finer pen and more thoughtfully written. But I cannot +identify this as Lee's handwriting. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell about the signature? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The signature looks a little like Lee's signature. + +Mr. DOYLE. You refer to 251, when you are discussing this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, 251. + +Now, this one I would say was not Lee's handwriting. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is 252? + +Mrs. OSWALD. 252. + +I have never known Lee to sign Lee Harvey Oswald. He always signed Lee +H. There again, that could be Lee's handwriting with a fine pen. But +very thoughtfully written. But I will say it is not Lee's. I don't +think it is. I cannot be positive. But I do not think it is Lee's +handwriting. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 252 that you have been referring to? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Exhibit 252. + +Here is another of the same caliber. It is too perfect. The writing is +too perfect. + +Mr. RANKIN. What about the signature? + +Mrs. OSWALD. The signature looks like Lee's signature. + +Mr. DOYLE. That is 253. + +Mrs. OSWALD. 253. Yes, sir. This is a little different signature, I +would say, than his normal signature. + +Mr. RANKIN. 254? + +Mrs. OSWALD. 254, yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. You think that Exhibit 254 is your son's handwriting or not? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I would have to say with reservations again. It would have +to be rewritten very thoroughly. It is not scribbled enough. + +Mr. RANKIN. You think that those letters, 251 through 254, are too +carefully done for your son Lee? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And if he did do them, he would have to have +four or five copies to do it so perfect. + +This is a little more scribbled. This signature looks more like Lee's +than the other did. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is 255? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. 255. + +This looks like Lee's handwriting--a lot of misspelling, and his +signature. 256. + +Now his Russian handwriting I know only from return addresses. However, +I do have two brown papers with Russian writing on, from gifts that +were sent to me. But I don't know if Lee addressed them or not. + +And this is Lee's handwriting with a very fine pen. Isn't this +handwriting backwards for a left hand? It seems when I looked at "my," +it should be going this way--because I write like Lee, left handed. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you refer to this--or asked whether it was backwards, +you were referring to Exhibit 257, were you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This "m" should be going this way--which it is +really. But it is kind of hard to testify to. I would say this is Lee's +handwriting with a very fine pen, with reservations. + +Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 257. + +We offer in evidence Exhibits 251 through 257, both inclusive. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. + +(The documents referred to were received in evidence as Commission +Exhibits Nos. 251 through 257, inclusive.) + +The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, are you now ready--we are not going to ask +you to do it right now, but we are going to recess at 2 o'clock. But +are we now at the point where we can hear whatever you want to tell us +about your life? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry, but I would like to have lunch. + +The CHAIRMAN. I said that we were going to have lunch. But when we +return--you have things up to that point of your story? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well. + +You have another question you want to ask before we recess for lunch? + +Mr. RANKIN. I should like to offer for the limited purpose, Mr. +Chairman, of the fact that we presented this picture to Mrs. Oswald and +she said it was not the picture that was presented to her--for that +limited purpose I should like to offer Exhibit 237. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be so admitted. + +(The picture referred to was received in evidence as Commission Exhibit +No. 237.) + +Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Chief Justice, during the noon hour may I have the +custody of this transcript of a tape recording of an interview with +Mrs. Oswald, the 28 pages which was tendered to us by Mr. Rankin this +morning--and I will return it. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is for them to have. + +The CHAIRMAN. That is to become your own. + +Mr. DOYLE. To become the property of Mrs. Oswald. + +The CHAIRMAN. The property of Mrs. Oswald, yes. That is what we gave it +to you for. She requested that. + +Mr. DOYLE. Thank you very much. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well, we will recess now until 2 o'clock. + +(Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +Afternoon Session + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED + + +The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m. + +The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Rankin, will you proceed with the hearing? + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, you said that you would like to turn now to +telling us about your life. We would appreciate that if you would do +that. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, if you would prefer not to tell the story of +your life, that is perfectly all right. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I want to tell the story but there is something else that +upsets me. + +The CHAIRMAN. It is perfectly all right if you don't wish to. You may +take your time now and go right ahead. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry, you will have to excuse me about the story of +my life, and Mr. Doyle knows why, but there is one part of the story of +my life that will have a great connection with this, I believe. + +I married Mr. Edwin Ekdahl who was an electrical engineer and a $10,000 +a year man with an expense account. Mr. Ekdahl had a woman before he +married me. Of course, I didn't know about it, sir. I made him wait a +year before I married him, but the way I found this out, I received a +telephone call, a telegram rather, he traveled--lots of times Lee and I +traveled with him--stating he wouldn't return home when he was supposed +to and for me not to meet him. + +So, I called his office, I was familiar with, knew his secretary, and I +was going to tell her that Mr. Ekdahl would be delayed 3 or 4 days. But +immediately she said, "Mrs. Ekdahl, Mr. Ekdahl is not in, he has gone +out to lunch." + +So, I said, the general conversation went "When will he be back" and so +on, and so that evening I took the car and I went to the Texas Electric +Co., works for the Texaco, the main office in New York, but he was +working in Fort Worth at the time, went to the building and saw him +leave the building and I followed him and to an apartment house, saw +him go into this apartment house. + +Then I went back home, and my oldest son, John Edward Pic, who is in +the service, had a friend at the house who was about 2 years older. I +told them about what happened. So it was night by this time. The kids +went with me. + +I called Mr. John McClain, who is an attorney, and we live next door +to Mr. McClain, and told him that I had seen Mr. Ekdahl go into a home +when he was supposed to be out of town and what should I do. + +He said, "Mrs. Oswald, just ring the phone. Do you know the woman?" + +And I said, "Yes." + +"Just ring the phone and let him know that you know he is there, that +you saw him." + +After I thought about it I thought that is not a good idea because he +could leave and say he was just there on business and I wanted to catch +him there. + +So the kids and I planned that we would say she had a telegram, so we +went up the stairs, I believe it was the second or the third floor, +and the young man knocked on the door and said, "Telegram for Mrs. +Clary"--was her name. + +She said, "Please push it under the door" and I told him no; he said, +"No, you have to sign for it." + +So with that she opened the door to sign for it and with that I, my +son, and with the other young man walked into the room and Mrs. Clary +had on a negligee, and my husband had his sleeves rolled up and his tie +off sitting on a sofa, and he said, "Marguerite, Marguerite, you have +everything wrong, you have everything wrong." + +He says, "Listen to me." + +I said, "I don't want to hear one thing. I have seen everything I want +to see, this is it." + +My two boys, in military school, the two older boys, I am paying for +the two older boys because I have sold a piece of property. I wanted to +take care as long as I had money of my own children and when I married +Mr. Ekdahl if he would support me and Lee I would be able to take care +of John Edward, and Robert in military school, we couldn't have them +with us because Mr. Ekdahl traveled. + +This man never let me share with his insurance policies, beneficiary, +in other words, I was another woman to him. I received $100 a month and +that was it. That was all the money I had from Mr. Ekdahl, and when +we traveled, for instance, we were in Santa Fe, N. Mex., and he was +with all the businessmen, we would have to wait until Mr. Ekdahl got +through, the baby and I, in order to eat, whether it was 2 or 3 o'clock +in the evening because here I was, registered under Mrs. Ekdahl and I +had a checking account, but under the name of Oswald, which was the +money I was using for the children so it was kind of inconvenient for +me to write a check under the name of Oswald. + +I am trying to point out the kind of man he was. + +I had a nice living in this sense. We lived in the finest hotels and +we had the finest food because all of this was charged to his expense +account but he gave me nothing but this $100. That was a standard thing +and he expected me to account for every cent of the hundred dollars +that I spent, which I refused to do. + +So, we argued naturally, because this is not a marriage. Any man who +marries a woman naturally shares, she shares in his bank account and in +his insurance and so on and so forth. + +I wanted to divorce Mr. Ekdahl naturally but my two boys as I have +stated before were in the military school, and I wanted to wait until +the end of the season, the school season. + +So, Lee and I went to Covington, La., and I picked the boys up at +military school because this was summer time--rather I wasn't back to +him. + +I left him and went back to him. But this particular time I picked the +boys up at military school and we spent the summer in Covington, La., +and by the way, I forgot to say that Lee had a beautiful voice and sang +beautifully at age 6 in Covington, La., he sang a solo in the church, +Silent Night, and that can be verified. This is a very small town and +the only Lutheran Church there. + +So, Mr. Ekdahl came to Covington, La., and I went back again to Mr. +Ekdahl. But this time I went back to him I hadn't found out about the +woman. I got excited. Then I found out about the woman, he rented a +place on 8th Avenue, a home. + +And after I was there about a day I was in the yard hanging out some +things and it was in the apartment house downstairs and a woman came +along and I said, "How are you? I am Mrs. Ekdahl." + +She looked astonished, and after I had made friends with her she +informed me Mr. Ekdahl had a woman in this particular house while I was +in Covington and she thought she was his wife but now I am the wife +come. + +Then I found out about the woman and we went to her apartment and +caught her there. This is the end of the season by this time. + +In the meantime Mr. Ekdahl filed suit for divorce from me. I thought +I was sitting pretty. He didn't have anything on me. I had him for +adultery with witnesses and everything and I didn't have an idea that +he could sue me for a divorce, but Mr. Ekdahl did sue me for a divorce, +and Mr. Ekdahl got the divorce. It was a jury case, and Mr. John +McClain, was my attorney, the man I told you that I called to find out +what to do. + +Now, Mr. Fred Korth represented Mr. Ekdahl and when I walked into the +courtroom, gentlemen, there were witnesses there that I had never seen +before. + +A Mr. George Levine, who is a very big businessman and who Mr. Ekdahl +was representing in Fort Worth for the electrical part of his plant. I +knew him this way. + +One time we went to the circus with his wife, my husband, myself and +Lee, before going to the circus we had dinner. Now, understand we are +having dinner in a public place. From the dinner we go to the circus, +we are in a public place and I want you to know that it is the only +time I had seen Mr. George Levine, when Mr. George Levine rushed from +work in his khaki pants and got on the witness stand swore how I nagged +Mr. Ekdahl and how I threw bottles at him and so on and so forth. + +There were other witnesses that I had never seen, sir, who swore how I +nagged Mr. Ekdahl, and Mr. Ekdahl got his divorce from me. + +Now, 2 days after the assassination, after Lee's death, while I am at +Six Flags it comes over the radio that Mr. Korth knew the family, this +happened in 1948, sir, then Mr. Korth knew the family, and that he had +represented Mr. Ekdahl in divorce proceedings and, of course, talked +to the reporters where they got the information that I hit him with a +bottle and so on and so forth. + +Now, that is my story there. I am not even guilty of that divorce, as +you see. This can be proved by my son John Edward Pic because he was a +witness, sir. + +I do not think I am going--I am not going to speculate but give my +thoughts to anyone who would immediately make a statement that he had +represented the mother of the accused assassin as an attorney years +ago, and that I nagged Mr. Ekdahl and so on and so forth. + +That was publicly announced about 2 days after my son was shot, sir. + +Now, the name then, of course, he probably knew the name Oswald, but +the name then was Ekdahl that I would say would stick in his mind more. + +I will try to get to the very beginning of my life, Chief Justice. + +The CHAIRMAN. Any time. Just take your time. + +Mrs. OSWALD. My mother died when I was quite young and my father raised +us with housekeepers. My aunt lived in the neighborhood and I had a +lot of cousins and a lot of aunts. My father was French, his name was +Claverie, and my mother was German, the name is Stucke. All of my +father's folks spoke French and my father spoke French to his sisters. +I was a child of one parent, and yet I have had a normal life, a very +hard normal life that I had been able to combat all by myself, sir, +without much help from anyone. + +I am saying that in reference to Lee being alone; there have been so +many psychiatrists saying he was by himself and he had a father image +and that is why he did the shooting. There are many, many children with +one parent who are perfectly normal children and I happen to be one +myself. + +I had a very happy childhood. I sang. I sang from the kindergarten at +grammar school, and all through grammar school I was the lead singer. +I was one of the most popular young ladies in the school. I also play +piano by ear. I don't know a note. I used to play the marching school +song for the school children. + +At my grammar school graduation I had the honor of wearing a pink dress +instead of a white dress and sang the song "Little Pink Roses." So I +had a very happy childhood and a very full childhood. I played the +piano. We had house parties in those days and a lot of gatherings and +it was everything Marguerite--and I also played a ukulele, so I have a +very full happy childhood. + +At the age of 17, I am ahead of my story--I have had 1 year high school +education. I know that on my applications I had that I had completed +high school but that is almost necessary to get a job. + +But I had 1 year of high school education is all that I had, sir. + +I then went to work at age 17, not quite 17, for one of the biggest +corporation lawyers in New Orleans, La. The name then was DuFour, +Rosen, Wolff, and Kammer. Mr. DuFour died while I was there and Mr. +Kammer, I believe, is still living but they were corporation attorneys +for that firm plus 4 or 5 other attorneys that handled divorce cases +and similar cases and I was receptionist in the outer office. + +So, everybody who came into the office had to state their business to +me, because the attorneys were very busy, and if it was a particular +case I had to know who to refer the party to this particular man. + +So, naturally, I got a very large education, let's say, by doing +this, and the mayor and everybody in the town, these are the largest +attorneys, corporation attorneys in New Orleans, sir, and they were +attorneys representing the New Orleans Public Service and big things +of that sort, and the mayor and all used to call me the boss. When the +mayor came in he had an appointment but I still had to ring the phone +to see if the men were ready to see him. So they called me the boss. + +I was also a maid in one of the carnival balls. I am a very poor young +lady but a very, let's say, popular young lady. + +My early childhood. We lived on the Phillips Street in New Orleans +which was a very poor neighborhood. My father was one of the very first +streetcar conductors and stayed on the very same line all these years +until he retired and they gave him a citation because he was on the +same line all those years from retirement, and we lived in a mixed +neighborhood of Negroes and white, and my childhood I played with +Negroes, sir, right next door to me was a lovely family that I grew up +with this Negro family. + +I married Mr. Edward John Pic, Jr., while working at the law firm. I +was married to Mr. Pic two and a half years when I became with child, +and he did not want any children. His family and my family tried to +talk to him, and, well, his family almost beat him up to say, but +nobody could do anything with him. + +So, at 3 months I left Mr. Pic. Mr. Pic did not divorce me, and you +have the records there of me divorcing Mr. Pic, contrary to all other +stories, sir. + +This child, John Edward Pic then I bore alone, without a husband. I +was 3 months pregnant. I had 6 more months to go, and I had this child +without a husband. + +So, I have had two children without a husband present, Lee and the +first child. + +Mr. Oswald was an insurance agent, and he used to collect insurance at +my sister's house, and the day that I left Mr. Pic he helped move my +furniture, the things that I was going to take. + +I didn't see Mr. Ekdahl for some time and---- + +The CHAIRMAN. Ekdahl or Oswald. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Oswald, sir, I am sorry. + +John Edward and I were coming from the park one day, and Mr. Ekdahl +picked--Mr. Oswald picked me up, and he was separated from his wife, +however, not divorced but had been separated for a number of years, and +I started dating Mr. Ekdahl and we decided to marry and he divorced his +wife. + +Mr. RANKIN. You said Ekdahl again. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Oswald, I am sorry, and then he got the divorce +proceeding. He was separated for a long time but never had been +divorced from his wife but when we knew he was going to marry, and I +also then got the divorce from Mr. Pic. I was not divorced there from +Mr. Pic, either. We were legally separated but I was not divorced from +him. + +So, Mr. Oswald and I married and of that marriage Robert was born 9 +months later, and as you know consequently Lee, 2 months after his +father had died. + +Now, Mr. Oswald was a very good man. There was the only happy part of +my life. When he died hardly anybody knew that John Edward Pic was not +his son. He wanted to adopt John Edward, but because his father was +supporting him which I think was only $18 a month, I explained to Lee +that I thought we should save this money for the boys' education and +let his own father support him and naturally we would educate and do +all we could do but that was no more than right. So that is why he did +not adopt John Edward. + +Now, that is the story of my three marriages. I have been married +approximately 9 years in the three times that I have been married, +sir, and I would say, I am probably guilty of a lot of things but the +initial guilt has never been mine in any of these marriages, the first +marriage I had explained, the second marriage was death, and the third +marriage was Mr. Ekdahl. + +I think then you know the rest of the story, how I lived with my +children and tried to support my children. + +I have often held two jobs trying to support my children. I have a +whole file that the Commission has copies of jobs that I have worked, +and I have also worked for these places twice, and have gone back. I +have wonderful recommendations. I think I have been fired about five +times in my life, and I have had much, much employment, and the reason +for that is finances, in other words, I have always had a very low +salary, and I am a very aggressive sales person, as these papers say, +and I always produce for my people and I was in demand actually. + +They would come to me and offer me 20, 25 dollars more, believe me, +gentlemen. I would quit the job where I was and quit the new job +because 25 dollars paid my light and heat bill and gave my children +some clothes and that is mostly the reason for all of this employment, +and also I used to quit my job as much as possible in the summer time +when the children were little in order to be home with them. + +Now, I skipped a part in the beginning about the children being placed +in the Lutheran Home. I am Lutheran and I was a church member, a church +worker, I should say. I helped, I sewed, natural gifted, I never did +take a lesson, I never did use a pattern, my sister can verify this. + +I used to come home from the attorneys with material, cut out the +material, sew it, press it and go out on a date. I just had the knack +of doing things that way, sir, and she can verify this because my +niece, I taught her to sew and my sister said, "You are so slow, Aunt +Marguerite used to sew on the material and go out on a date," and my +niece would say, "Is it true, my mother said you would sew on material +and go out on a date," and I said, "I wish I had a nickel for every +time I did." + +So those are gifted things I can't explain. + +Lee had certain gifted ways about him also. + +In the early part of my life that I had skipped when the war broke +out and my finances were gone, I talked with the church. It was on +Alva Street in New Orleans, not too far where my home was and they +investigated the money I had, and I had a little money left at this +time and they let me place the two older boys in the Lutheran Home +which is a home only for the Lutheran Church. + +This is not an institution. They have their own private school on the +ground, and it is primarily based for children of one parent. However, +they do take orphans. It was really not designed to be an orphan +home. It was for children of one parent and you pay according to your +circumstances, and they investigated my salary and after I went to +work, I paid according to my circumstances for my two boys. + +I took my two boys home with me every weekend, sir, and brought them +back in time for Sunday so they can go to church with the children in +the home. They got a wonderful education because the school on the +school grounds had very few children in them. + +There would be maybe two or three children to a particular grade so +they had wonderful school. Lee was too young. They would not take Lee +into the home until he was 3 years old. + +So, I have hired maids and I have quit many a job for this. You have a +background on my job, this accounts for it. Many a position and I have +always had title and no money, assistant manager or manager in charge +of a department, and I have had to quit that, because the maid wouldn't +show up, and you couldn't get a maid for love or money. + +War had broken out and the Negroes in New Orleans were going into +factories and so on and so forth so there is many a job I had to leave +in order to stay home and mind Lee until I could get help. + +Then my sister helped with Lee. There is one particular instance, I let +a couple have my home, plus $15 a month in order to care for Lee while +I worked, and this couple after about 2 month's time had neglected Lee +and so I had to put them out of the house and there again I had to quit +a job, and take care of Lee until I could make arrangements and my +sister could help me with it. + +So when Lee was 3 years old I was having it very difficult with Lee, +because of the different people to take care of Lee, and the different +jobs that I had to give up. + +However, I was never in want of work. It was during the war and I was +always able to get work, but I realized if I continued to quit jobs +because I couldn't hold the jobs that some day I wouldn't have enough +jobs in New Orleans for me to hold one. + +So, then at age 3 Lee was placed in the home. I waited patiently for +age 3 because I wanted naturally for the brothers to be together. It +was hard on Lee also because Lee was at a different place and his +brothers were at a different place. So at age 3 I placed Lee in a +Lutheran home. Of course, you have to be under strict investigation +financially and otherwise to do this because this is a church +placement, sir. + +Then, I became manager of Princess hosiery shop on Canal Street. I +opened that shop and I was left by myself and in 6 days' time I hired +four girls. There was the first shop this man has had. He now has, I +think, 54 stores and he always remembers me as on the road of starting +him to success, because this young man didn't have much money at the +time. And this is where I met Mr. Ekdahl and there is why I didn't want +to marry right away because the children were being taken care of and I +was manager of the hosiery shop. + +So, now, I was sitting pretty in our American slang and I did not want +to marry. But he persisted. He decided he wanted to marry me and I +decided to marry him. I went to the Lutheran home and talked to the, +well, you don't call him a manager, the head of the home, and I was +going to marry Mr. Ekdahl, and I asked if I should have, if I could +have Lee, that I didn't want the children, John Edward, and Robert +to miss their schooling and I told them that I would wait until the +children got out of school to marry Mr. Ekdahl but Mr. Ekdahl traveled, +and, yet, he had a stroke and Mr. Ekdahl had offered, if I would come +to Dallas, he was being transferred to Dallas, that he would pay my +room, my living quarters and everything if I would cook and take care +of him and I told the home, the Lutheran home about this arrangement, +so there was nothing going to be immoral about it, sir, or I wouldn't +have explained to the Lutheran home and they let me have Lee under +those circumstances because they knew that I was a good woman and doing +the best I could. + +So, I got Lee, and when we went to Dallas, I then realized I did not +want to marry Mr. Ekdahl, but I had already given up my position as +manager of the hosiery shop, and had taken Lee out of school so with +the money, I told you I had some money, and I had sold a piece of +property, I bought another piece of property for a very small down +payment on Victor Street in Dallas, Tex., and Mr. Ekdahl traveled. + +Now, Mr. Ekdahl used to come on weekends and stay at my home. Of +course, in his bedroom with my children, just maybe not even every +weekend because he traveled, and then I decided I would marry Mr. +Ekdahl. I mean I decided not to, I mean, he was a persistent one. + +Then I married Mr. Ekdahl and the home was sold and I traveled with Mr. +Ekdahl and the children were put into military school with the money I +sold the home with. + +I believe I have covered everything. I am not quite sure. + +Are there any questions, Mr. Rankin, that I haven't gotten? + +Mr. RANKIN. I think that is very helpful. + +I would like to ask you about those pictures that you offered and then +decided you didn't want to give us. If you would get those out, I would +like to identify them so that there cannot be any misunderstanding +about just what they are about. + +Could you do that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. By the way, one of the reporters when I came downstairs +said "What is all the commotion about those pictures, you have, Mrs. +Oswald?" Where do those leaks come from? That is the example. They +wanted to know about the pictures. + +Mr. Chief Justice, this is Lee at 6 months. + +The CHAIRMAN. He was a good looking baby. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This is Lee there at 2 years. Would--if you would like a +copy of the Marina pictures, sir, I would be more than happy to do that. + +I think they are in an envelope. This is important, Mr. Rankin. This +has something to do with Time Magazine is what I think he did. This is +where he got that from. These were copied for this session. These are +from my other boys to mother, and John Edward and which I wanted to +show we were a family but as soon as the boys married--here is another +thing, which is true to human nature. + +I am a widow woman with no money and I happened not to have the type +daughter-in-laws who wanted a widow woman in case they have to support +me. My children make very low salaries and so I am not alone, we +have thousands and thousands of women like me. It is hard to say the +children don't want you. But there are many, many mothers whose sons +have married because it is different with a girl. + +Now a girl will take care of the mother but the boy's mother is usually +nothing and I am not going to be helped or supported. + +I am going to take care of myself because that is the attitude and that +was the attitude when I was sick. + +Lee Harvey Oswald was the only one who has helped his mother at any +time but I wanted to show mothers today cared and everything until they +married. That was the type family we were, sir. + +And this was the picture, Mr. Rankin, of the three children which is a +happy life and he wanted to be in New Orleans. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I am going to call your attention to Exhibit +258 which you just referred to and said maybe that is what you meant. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because I gave him this when he entered the home. + +Mr. RANKIN. This Exhibit 258 refers to the letter you received from +me as general counsel for the Commission, and then a letter to the +President, and your appeal to the President, is that right? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. RANKIN. And this is a copy you released for the press conference in +Dallas. That is Exhibit 258. I offer Exhibit 258. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +Mr. RANKIN. If you will permit me, I will ask the court reporter to +identify these pictures and I don't intend to offer them but then I +will ask you each one by number so we can make it clear, and then +return them to you, so you can tell us what they are about, is that all +right with you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is just fine, thank you. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mrs. Oswald, I will hand you Exhibits 259 through 269, +both inclusive, and ask you to take them starting with Exhibit 259 and +referring to the exhibit in each case, tell the Commission what the +picture is about. + +Mrs. OSWALD. 259 is of the three children, John Edward, Robert, and +Lee and the three are smiling. In fact this picture was in a magazine +because of the three good poses. It is hard to get three pictures alike. + +Mr. RANKIN. About how old are the children in that picture? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I know Lee was approximately going on 6 years old. There +is 5 years difference in Robert so Robert would be 11, that is correct +and John Edward would be 13. That is when they went to military school. + +This is a picture of Lee at age 6 months. + +Mr. RANKIN. You are talking about Exhibit 260? + +Mrs. OSWALD. 260, yes, sir. + +This is a picture of Lee at the Bronx Zoo, Exhibit 261 at age 13. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is the Bronx Zoo in New York? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is the Bronx Zoo in New York that you told us about. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +262 is a picture of Lee in Atsugi, Japan in 1958 showing his strength. + +Mr. RANKIN. That shows him in Marine uniform also, does it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. In his Marine uniform showing his muscles to his mother. + +And this is a picture, Exhibit 263 taken in Corregidor 1957 in the +wilderness. + +Mr. RANKIN. He is still in the Marines there? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, he is in fatigues, there. This is a picture taken +August 19, 264 taken in California coming home on leave from Japan. + +Mr. RANKIN. 264 he is still in the Marines? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he is still in the Marines August 19. This is a +picture of Lee taken in Minsk, Russia June 1st, 1961, Minsk, USSR, +Exhibit 267. + +There is a picture of Marguerite Oswald, the mother taken in New +Orleans. + +Mr. RANKIN. What is the number? + +Mrs. OSWALD. 265. + +Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. That is your own picture? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +This is a Mother's Day card sent to me from Santa Ana, California on +May 7, 1959 from Lee. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 266? + +Mrs. OSWALD. And this is Exhibit 268 which is a Christmas card I +had sent Lee on his first Christmas away from home--he joined in +October--that Lee had kept all these years in his sea bag, this was +found in his sea bag he left with me. + +This is a book of Christmas carols Exhibit 269 that was also found in +Lee's sea bag. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, Exhibits 259 to 269 both inclusive, are those all of +the pictures that you were offering the Commission this morning? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have many more pictures, I would be happy to show you +but these are the pictures that your Mr. Jenner said he would like to +have for the Commission. + +Mr. RANKIN. And that you were referring to when you offered them to the +Commission? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Thank you very much and we would like to return them to you +at this time. + +The CHAIRMAN. We will return them to you, Mrs. Oswald. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman. + +The Chairman. Well I think that will be all then. Thank you Mrs. Oswald +and if you become too tired with your testimony, we know it has been a +long and arduous task for you, but we appreciate your presence. + +Now, Mr. Doyle. + +Mr. DOYLE. Sorry for the interruption, sir. Mrs. Oswald, do you care +to make any comment to the Commission about the tape recording, the +transcript of the tape recording of Mrs. Marguerite Oswald furnished +to you by the Commission this morning? Do you care to make any comment +about that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Should I go all the way and make the comment? + +Mr. DOYLE. You make any comment you desire on that paper. I ask you +whether or not you have any comment to make concerning that paper that +you sent, that you were given? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am concerned about one thing, Mr. Doyle, if I may just +step over there and ask you a question. + +The CHAIRMAN. You may step out in the hall and talk to Mr. Doyle. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Chief Justice Warren and Mr. Rankin, I have read this +and it has upset me very, very much, that is what I was upset about. +I have stated before in my testimony that at the end of the Six Flags +I insisted upon going home and getting my important papers and I was +ignored. + +I wanted to testify. They put Robert on tape many a time and Marina +continuously and I didn't have an interview. I have stated this +previously, if you remember, and then finally a Mr. Howard put me on +tape for about 5 or 10 minutes only, sir, and I had started with the +defection because I was under the impression that we missed a bet +when we didn't find out how Lee got to Russia and as far as I know, +no reporter has been able to find out what ship he left on, and then +Robert left the bedroom because he had the news that we could not get +a minister, if you recall, and cried, and I said to Mr. Howard "Now +all that I have left me because I see my son crying bitterly." I have +stated these facts before, a very short interview. + +This interview is supposed to have been by Mr. Howard, sir. The same +Mr. Mike Howard that I have previously identified before on many +occasions, and I swear before this Committee that now my life is +more in danger which I have said before, because I did not give this +testimony. This is the testimony that has been gathered by known facts +because I have been a public figure. + +I have had three press conferences, I have written for magazines and +newspapers. I have not kept quiet, sir, as you know, so these things +have been accumulated. I was not questioned and answered, sir. I have +stated it before and I state it now. This is the same man who was sent +to me in Fort Worth, Tex. that I have complained that I did not get +protection, if you will recall. This is the very same man, sir. This +is the same man that I have told you that gave my daughter-in-law a +red-carpet treatment if you will recall along with the other one I +identified in the picture. This is the man I have been sitting here +complaining about. Here is my evidence. I am ready to have a heart +attack. I was sick, sir, when I read it because I realize now how my +life is in danger and I want to say this: Many people know about this, +many people, sir, Mr. Jack Langdon of the Morning Times, Mr. Blair +Justice of the Star Telegram and I immediately called Mr. Blair Justice +of the Star Telegram when this man knocked on my door last week to +protect me, and told Blair Justice that this was the man, there was an +article written in the Star Telegram, not printed but about pointed +every lie at the Six Flags I made it plain that the other one if he had +a gun would have shot me in my prior testimony, Mr. Rankin you remember +that, so I told Mr. Justice, I said "Justice I am scared to death. This +is the same man that I am suspicious of that they have now sent to +guard me," and as you know, sir, I was not protected. + +I was not protected while in Fort Worth. I have testified to that, if +you will recall. This is the man, and I did not give this testimony, +sir. + +I have repeatedly stated to newspapermen and to everybody publicly that +I have never been questioned. The only thing I could figure why I was +never questioned is because Lee was an agent, and I have stated that +fact. Why they left me alone, because I have never been questioned. + +Mr. Tom Whalen who is an announcer for one of the television stations +in Fort Worth he kept calling Lee the assassin of President Kennedy, +and I called Mr. Whalen and I said to Mr. Whalen "You don't know that +Lee assassinated President Kennedy. I object to that." + +I said "I can't tell you what to do, sir, but I would like you to say +the accused assassin because this is what he is" and he apologized and +we talked a little while and I said no sir, I told him I was not--I had +never been interviewed. He says "I can't believe that, Mrs. Oswald." I +said "Believe it or not I have never been interviewed," which I made a +statement upon arriving in Washington that I have never had a complete +tape recording or question and answer. + +I went to the courthouse, and gave my information to the FBI men as I +stated previously, which took a few minutes. + +I never did see those men after that. They weren't investigated and at +the Six Flags I repeatedly wanted to go home and get my papers and give +the documents that I have here, as I stated, and I was not questioned, +sir at Six Flags. + +I was questioned for about 5 or 10 minutes and I stopped this way. All +of my thoughts have gone from me because I see my son crying. I have +previously stated that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, in light of your saying that you didn't give +this interview evidenced by this document, a copy of which we gave to +you which purports to have been recorded on November 25, 1963, by Mr. +Howard, I would like to have that identified by the reporter and then +give you another copy that you can compare, and I would like to ask you +just a few questions about it. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Fine. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I hand you back the 28-page reported interview +that I just referred to that has just been marked Exhibit 270 and +ask you if that is the document that you were referring to in your +testimony? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; this is the document I am referring to. + +Mr. RANKIN. That you just said you did not give that interview? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. And I will finish something, too, Mr. +Mark R. Lane called and I told Mr. Mark Lane about the Secret Service +man. He knows about this, many know about this, I have witnesses by +this. + +Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. About this man, Mr. Howard. + +Mr. RANKIN. I see. But not that you said that you did not give this +interview. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon? + +Mr. RANKIN. When you say this, you didn't mean that they know that you +did not give this interview? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No. They knew that I didn't testify, I am sorry. But Mr. +Mark Lane called me the morning that I was to--the day I was supposed +to leave Fort Worth to come to Washington, sir, and I said to Mr. Mark +Lane, "I am not going in the car with Mr. Mike Howard." and there was +another Mr. Howard by the way who came there that day. I don't know +whether he was his brother or not, we will have to find out, sir, the +day I was going to leave for Washington, and I said, "Lane, I am scared +to death." He says "Don't worry. I will call Mr. Walden, who is the +Star Telegram reporter and ask him to accompany you." and Mr. Mark Lane +called Mr. Walden of the Star Telegram and asked him to accompany me +and Mr. Walden did accompany me with these two Secret Service men to +the airport and when Mr. Walden entered my home I told him I am so glad +you are here because I didn't want to go with this agent by myself. + +And this is the same agent now--Chief Justice are you interested enough +for me to tell you a little more? + +The CHAIRMAN. About this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +The CHAIRMAN. Tell what you wish about it. + +Mrs. OSWALD. We are going to go back now a little bit and then you will +see the pattern. At the end of the Six Flags; I will make it as short +as possible and when everything was Mama and we were going to live +together and I told you they took her from me and I didn't see her, +then Marina's testimony started to change, sir. Marina's testimony was +not this testimony the first 3 days. + +I have testified, and she has testified differently than me. I don't +know of all of her testimony but the first 3 days, this was not her +husband's rifle, at the police station and she admitted but it wasn't +her husband's rifle. She was going to live with her Mama and everything +was fine and then when I told you the way they did, then Marina turned +against her Mama, you no have work, and from that time Marina has been +changed to a different personality, let's admit it, sir, Marina has +been changing to a different personality. + +Her statements, her way of life, she smokes, as I said today. I am not +saying it now, she stopped nursing her baby. This is a Russian girl, +I know she lived with me 1 month, how untouched of worldly things she +was, and I mentioned before there was a lot of rumors that I didn't +feel like I wanted to go into but that I couldn't overlook. + +Sir, if you would know the rumors, then you would put two and two +together what I have been trying to say. This man, along with the other +one that I have identified, are definitely in this pattern, and Marina +Oswald, yes, Marina Oswald has changed completely. + +She made a statement on television now she is happy that she has ever +been and people have written, her husband is only gone 2 months. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, this Exhibit 270, you understand, is a +transcription, that is the writing out of what was on the tape, you +understand that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. But I was never taped, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. We have asked, Mr. Chairman, that the tape be sent over so +that it can be heard, if you wish. + +The CHAIRMAN. Now, you mean. + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. It is on its way over. + +The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I have stated previously, if I was taped it was during a +conversation going on that they taped me. I have never sat down and +been taped, sir. I don't think I am out of my mind, I wonder why. + +The CHAIRMAN. May I see this. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Max Phillips, who is a Secret Service agent brought a +dictaphone into my home, on Thomas Place, when I left Six Flags, and I +saw it connected and Mr. Jim Cox of the Star Telegram can prove that I +disconnected it. When I was telling Mr. Jim Cox my story about putting +my children into a Lutheran home and I thought it was a personal story +that had nothing to do with this particular case I disconnected the +tape recorder. + +Mr. Max Phillips brought a tape recorder into my home and as you know I +do a lot of talking. And I never did sit down. + +Mr. RANKIN. This was a tape recording at the Six Flags. + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. It purports to be. You understand that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I understand that thoroughly. + +I would like to produce some other evidence that I have also to this +Commission. I have, as Mr. Doyle knows, a tape recorder with a few +recordings on it, and there are several, two, I believe. Mr. Sorrels' +recordings on that. I found it necessary, because my mail was being +opened, my mail, I have reported to the Postal Inspections, I have +stated in the beginning that all of my rights were taken away from me, +and, sir, believe me they were, and when I was a lone woman I would say +something I was supposed to be out of my mind and didn't know what I +was talking about I started to decide I needed some evidence too and +Mr. Sorrels kept pushing me off about seeing my daughter-in-law, I have +him on tape, and I have Mr. Thorne on tape about my mail being opened. +I have some other evidence. + +Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever transcribed that? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Would you transcribe that and send us copies of it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. That is a very long document. I was never +questioned and answered. + +The CHAIRMAN. It would hardly seem possible, Mrs. Oswald, that unless +this is a complete fabrication that anyone could have given these +answers but you, it is--so many of these questions and answers are +exactly what you have told us. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Exactly what I have told you, sir, I have been in the +news continuously, I have made the same statements over and over in +magazines and newspapers and press conferences, yes, sir, that is not +news to anybody. + +And as a matter of fact, I was taped, oh, this might be a point, I +was taped at my first press conference which was at the Fort Worth +Press Club which I talked approximately 2 hours, and there was a tape +recorder there. I talked over 2 hours at that press conference. + +Mr. RANKIN. This is question and answer? + +For instance, and I am looking at page 18, there are different +questions and answers. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is a condensed version of my whole testimony, as I +say, because I have been in the public eye and I have all of these +things public. + +These things have been made public. + +Mr. RANKIN. This purports to be following the tape recording as to your +son Robert, you remember his giving a tape recording interview? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Robert gave a tape recording, I told you, and so did +Marina and I was not asked to be tape recorded. + +I myself asked to give testimony and I did give about 5- or 10-minutes +testimony that I say again that I ended up with now all my thoughts are +gone, I see my son crying, a very short, and if I remember correctly, +I started with the defection. I do know because I said "Robert doesn't +know anything about my trip to Washington. He wasn't interested and +maybe he should listen to my testimony." And I got not far from it when +Robert cried and that ended that testimony. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, while we are waiting, you may relax. We will +take a little recess, if you want to refresh yourself, you may step +out. That is perfectly all right. + +Mrs. OSWALD. One thing, of course I am not supposed to tell you what +to do, I know and I don't mean to, Chief Justice, but since this man +was reassigned to guard me in Fort Worth I would like to know if he was +free or if he was taken off another assignment to come to Fort Worth to +guard me for this trip? Because it is the same man, understand? + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I think in regard to that I had better state +on the record we had nothing to do, that is the Commission or myself, +about the selection of any of the personnel. We just asked the Secret +Service to handle it and so we don't at this time know what the answer +is to your question. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. + +(Short recess.) + +The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Rankin, you may continue. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, we have this transcript at this time that we +are ready to play now and it starts out with Robert Oswald's testimony +or answers and questions like the transcription, written transcription +states at the head of it, and I think it might be helpful if we just +start with that and we can move on if you wish to with the other. + +The CHAIRMAN. All right. + +(Playing of tape recording.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, this is about 3 pages out of around between 13 +and 14 of your son's transcription. Do you recognize your son's voice? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I have to listen really, it is a recorder, I am sure, +but I have to, you know, listen, that story is right. There are two +discrepancies so far as dates. + +Mr. RANKIN. But you do recognize it? It sounds like him? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it sounds like him. It is the recorder. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is it all right for us to pass down to yours at this time? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and I want the time on it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That would be how many pages? About the 2 months he made +an error, it is June 13 and they were in my home with me by July 14. + +(Transcription played.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you have any problem about that being your +voice on the tape? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, but I think probably the rest of it is my voice. +I had a news conference at the Fort Worth Press Club at Fort Worth, +Tex., that I was on tape for 2 hours. + +Now, here is what--this is probably a little over 10 minutes to hear +"Pardon me, you will have to excuse me." And there was a lot of break +there. That is exactly 10 minutes. I have testified that at the +Inn of Six Flags I talked for about 10 minutes and then I stopped +because my son was crying, and I still say I testified for 10 minutes +approximately at the Inn of Six Flags. + +I had a press conference at the Fort Worth Press Club, that can be +verified that I talked for over 2 hours that I was on tape. I was +sitting on a desk with many, many reporters because this was when it +just happened, and we had a lot of reporters, and in the back of me was +a man, and everything I said was on this tape, and it was over 2 hours +that I talked at this press club. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you say the things that you say here? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. In answer to these questions? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and all through here is my story, yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. At the press club? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I talked for 2 hours. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you didn't say it to this agent? + +Mrs. OSWALD. I said, and I am going to continue to say this, that I had +approximately 10 minutes interview at the Inn of Six Flags, and then +the telephone rang and Robert came out and started crying, and I said +I see my son crying so now all my thoughts have left me and I was not +interviewed any further at the Inn of Six Flags, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. On this tape you heard a little child talking, didn't you? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, was there a little child like that at this---- + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, June was at the Inn of the Six Flags and if I am as +smart as they are and if they are as smart as I am, there could be a +little child crying all during the rest of the testimony. + +Mr. RANKIN. I see, but there wasn't a little child at the place where +you gave your press conference? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, but I am not familiar with--but couldn't a tape be +added and spliced and couldn't a child voice be put in? I am just +saying, because I have said before and I am saying now I was taped +for about 10 minutes, just where this business came in was exactly 10 +minutes, "Pardon me," now I spoke for over two and a half hours at the +Fort Worth Press Club and was taped there. + +What they can do with that tape, I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who asked you the questions when you were answering them at +the Fort Worth Press Club? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Now, it was not in this sequence, answer and questions. +So, I am saying, I do not know how they can get my voice and do the +tape and answering questions for the rest, but gentlemen, I am not out +of my mind and I have said this over and over publicly, that I have +never been interviewed, answer and question, but for about 10 minutes +at the Inn of the Six Flags. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, then I would like to go down about 5 or 6 +minutes more maybe and see what it sounds like and the background if we +play for just a few minutes. + +The CHAIRMAN. All right. + +Mr. RANKIN. Would you drop down for another 5 minutes? Skip about 5 +minutes, please. + +Mrs. OSWALD. After you start may I say something else? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. All of this here I have said and also said in my home and +I have testified that there was a tape recorder in my home brought in +by Mr. Max Phillips, Mr. Rankin. Why can't--I don't know anything about +tape but it can be spliced and edited and so forth, that much I know +because when I have talked for reporters, they don't use everything I +say. They splice. + +Mr. RANKIN. But you recognize, Mrs. Oswald, it would be quite a job to +splice in each one of those questions. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, the assassination of the President of the United +States and a scapegoat for it would be quite a job, it would be worth +while, yes, sir, I realize that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Let's try a little more. + +(Transcription played.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you want to say anything more about this? + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I do. I haven't gone through all of this. I have +made the statement over and over that my conversation was stopped. It +was approximately a 10-minute conversation and it was stopped with the +remark "I see my son crying. All my thoughts have left me." + +Is that remark in this any place? + +Mr. RANKIN. I don't recall that it is. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Well, we will have to recall, because this, I have stated +and was said and that is when I stopped the conversation at the Inn +of the Six Flags. Robert came out crying because he couldn't get a +minister and I said, "I see my son crying, now all my thoughts have +left me," and the interview stopped at the Inn of Six Flags which I +have testified was approximately 10 minutes. + +Now, sir, there was a microphone in my home. This is not news to +anybody. I have said this over and over and over. The ordinary layman +by now knows my whole story, Chief Justice Warren. There was Mr. Max +Phillips who had a microphone in my home. I testified on tape for over +2 hours at--talked at the Fort Worth Club, which would be, it is the +same story over and over, I have told you all the same story that you +already have here. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes, but it wasn't the same man interrogating you at this +place as it was at this hotel, was it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. About now--I don't know if this is the same man on the +whole tape because I haven't listened to it. No, no one interrogated me +at the Fort Worth Press Club, sir. I talked, there was an open press. + +The CHAIRMAN. But it is the same voice we are hearing now asking you +questions as at the beginning of this tape, isn't it? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. I have just stated, since this is a very +big operation, that this could be edited and this man's voice put on +there. This I know, because the radio stations called me and they +edited what I do. Isn't this possible, that this could be edited, and +that this man asked the questions and then my voice be put in. It would +be a big job but I am asking isn't that possible? I swear that I have +never had answers and questions of this sort, gentlemen. + +The CHAIRMAN. Shall we turn over about 10 minutes more and see if the +same voices are in it there? + +(Transcription played.) + +Mrs. OSWALD. I am not sure but I think it was possible it was an editor +that he put me on there. + +(Transcription played.) + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, those are the same voices. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is Mr. Mike Howard's voice, yes, sir, I recognize his +voice, yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. And that is your voice? + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is my voice. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. But I am not going to vary from my story. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes, all right. + +Mrs. OSWALD. That is an interview just 10 minutes at the Inn of Six +Flags and that was the only time when going to the courthouse and +asked for the FBI of Lee getting the money to come home from the State +Department and Congressman Wright knew about it and they left and they +didn't even come back and talk to me, sir, yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Play just the last part. + +Mrs. OSWALD. The last 25 minutes. + +Mr. RANKIN. These last remarks that we listened to were on page 13. + +(Transcription played.) + +The CHAIRMAN. Those are the same two voices, Howard's voice and your +voice. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I say those are the two same voices, Mr. Mike +Howard's voice, yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is on page 21 of the transcript. Mr. Chairman, do you +think there is any need for any more? + +The CHAIRMAN. I don't see any need for going any further with it. + +Mrs. Oswald says she didn't have this interview, these questions were +not asked of her and these answers given but she does identify the +voices as being hers and all we have is her word, and this tape, and +the transcription at the present time. So for the moment, I suppose we +will just have to leave it where it is. + +I don't see any other answer to it. + +Mrs. OSWALD. All right. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I have shown you during a recess what has been +marked as Exhibit 271, and you have examined the handwriting of that +exhibit. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And the various letters there. Can you tell us whether or +not those handwritings on those various letters are those of your son, +Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. OSWALD. It looks like his handwriting, I would say so. I am not +handwriting expert. It looks very much like his writing. + +Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. We offer in evidence Exhibit 271. + +The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted. + +(The document was received in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 271.) + +Mr. RANKIN. We understand, Mr. Doyle, that you have examined the +original documents of Exhibits 244 through 257, and compared them with +the photostatic copies that have been marked. + +Mr. DOYLE. I have. + +Mr. RANKIN. And stipulate for the record that the photostats are +correct, of the originals, is that agreeable? + +Mr. DOYLE. I do. + +Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. + +Mr. Chairman, I have nothing further unless Mrs. Oswald has something +or Mr. Doyle cares to interrogate Mrs. Oswald about anything. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, do you have anything more you want to say? + +Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't have anything more. Do you have any questions, +Mr. Doyle? + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle, do you have anything to say? + +Mr. DOYLE. I have no further questions, no. + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, thank you very much, Mrs. Oswald, for appearing +voluntarily before the Commission and giving your testimony, and Mr. +Doyle, I want to express the appreciation of the Commission for the +help you have been to Mrs. Oswald and to the Commission in representing +her on this occasion. We know that it disrupted your week very badly. +We know that you responded to this call for public service on a +moment's notice, and we appreciate it all the more because of that. + +My own personal thanks to you in addition to those of the Commission. + +Mr. DOYLE. Thank you, Your Honor. I assume that my designation was +for the purpose of the hearing and with the conclusion that will have +finished my job. + +The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Unless Mrs. Oswald should like to ask you some +questions about the matter at the conclusion of the testimony, I think +that will be all. + +Mr. DOYLE. Very well. + +The CHAIRMAN. Thank you both. + +Mrs. OSWALD. You and I are through as attorney and client? + +Mr. DOYLE. Yes. + +Mrs. OSWALD. This will not be pursued any further? + +Mr. DOYLE. Unless you have some questions, thank you. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Gentlemen, you are making a very big mistake. I thank you +very much for inviting me here. + +The CHAIRMAN. I don't understand you. + +Mrs. OSWALD. I think you are making a very big mistake not pursuing +this further because I have told important people about this particular +incident and I say it is correct and I hope you will continue while I +am gone not just to ignore what I have said. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, you misjudge the Commission when you say we +will not pursue it further. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Fine, I don't know, I am asking. + +The CHAIRMAN. You may be sure we will pursue it further. + +Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you, and I have more people that I could call. I +have told Mr. Doyle the people. + +Would you like me to name the people on the record for you? Mr. Lane, I +called Mr. Lane---- + +The CHAIRMAN. To what purpose are you naming these people? + +Mrs. OSWALD. To the purpose that Mr. Mike Howard who came to Fort +Worth last week to protect me, I called these people and told them how +concerned I was that he was the one. + +The CHAIRMAN. I think you have told us what you told them, so that we +have it here in the record now. + +We are adjourned. + +(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Thursday, February 20, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD + +The President's Commission met at 9:30 a.m., on February 20, 1964, at +200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Cooper, +Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. +Dulles, members. + +Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, +Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; William +McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald and Leon Jaworski, +special counsel to the attorney general of Texas. + + +The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order. + +I will make a brief statement for the benefit of Mr. McKenzie and Mr. +Oswald, so you will know just what this is about. + +On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive +Order No. 11130, appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate +and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late +President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man +charged with the assassination." + +On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137, which +authorizes the Commission or any member of the Commission or any agent +or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose to administer +oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence. + +On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing +each member of the Commission, and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, +to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive +evidence concerning any matters under investigation by the Commission. + +The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. Robert +Oswald, the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald, who prior to his death was +charged with the assassination of President Kennedy. + +Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background of Lee +Harvey Oswald and those associated with him, it is the intention of the +Commission to ask Mr. Robert Oswald questions concerning Lee Harvey +Oswald on any and all matters relating to the assassination. + +The Commission also intends to ask Mr. Robert Oswald questions relating +to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent +death of Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr. Robert Oswald has also been furnished +with a copy of this statement and a copy of the rules adopted by the +Commission for the taking of testimony and the production of evidence. +Mr. Robert Oswald has also been furnished with a copy of Executive +Order No. 11130, and Congressional Resolution S.J. No. 137, which set +forth the general scope of the Commission's inquiry and its authority +for examining witnesses and receiving evidence. + +That is just for your general information, Mr. Oswald. + +You are here with your attorney, Mr. McKenzie. + +Would you state your name for the Commission? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice and members of the Commission, my name +is William A. McKenzie. Our office is 631 Fidelity Union Life Building, +Dallas, Tex. I am a member of the State Bar of Texas and licensed to +practice before the Supreme Court of that State. + +The CHAIRMAN. And you are here to advise and represent Mr. Robert +Oswald? + +Mr. McKENZIE. I am here to advise and represent Mr. Oswald. And I +might state, further, that Mr. Oswald will freely give answers to any +questions that the Commission might desire to ask of him. + +The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. + +There are present at the Commission this morning Mr. Allen Dulles, +Commissioner, and myself. I will be leaving fairly shortly to attend a +session of the Supreme Court, but in my absence Mr. Allen Dulles will +conduct the hearing. + +Mr. Oswald, would you please rise and be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, +and nothing but the truth, so help you God, in all of these proceedings +at which you are to testify? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice, if you may pardon me for just a +second. In coming down to the Commission's hearing room, I left part +of my file in Mr. Jenner's office, and I have asked Mr. Liebeler if he +will step out and get the file. + +The CHAIRMAN. You would like to wait for that? + +Mr. McKENZIE. If you don't mind. + +The CHAIRMAN. I might add, while we are waiting for that to come +back, that Mr. Albert Jenner, one of the associate counsel for the +Commission, will conduct the examination this morning. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +I would like to state for the record that I have furnished to Mr. +Jenner and Mr. Liebeler this morning a letter dated February 17, 1964, +dictated by myself, but signed by Robert L. Oswald and witnessed by +Pete White, Joan Connelly, and Henry Baer, which I would like for the +Commission to have a copy of, and which I furnished to the Commission. + +And, further, that I have furnished to Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebeler, +counsel for the Commission, a letter dated February 18, 1964, signed +by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald and witnessed by Declan P. Ford, Katherine N. +Ford, and Joan Connelly. + +The reason that I furnish these letters to the Commission I think will +be obvious from a reading of the letters, and, secondly, will likewise +explain my position to some extent. + +And, further, I have furnished to Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebeler letters +dated February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. James H. Martin, 11611 +Farrar, Dallas, Tex., signed by myself, and likewise signed by Marina +N. Oswald, and witnessed by Katherine Ford, a copy of which I furnished +to Mr. Lee Rankin, counsel for the Commission; and a letter of like +date, February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. John M. Thorne, Thorne and +Leach, Attorneys and Counselors-at-Law, of Grand Prairie, Tex., signed +by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford. + +I furnish these to the Commission for the Commission's information. + +The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. McKenzie. + +Is there anything, Mr. McKenzie, you would like to know about our +procedure that you are not acquainted with? It is very informal. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice, I will say this. This is the first +time I have had the privilege of appearing before such a distinguished +group of citizens of this country, headed by yourself, and that we are +ready to proceed. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jenner? + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. + +May I suggest the wisdom of identifying each of these series of four +letters with an exhibit number, and may the reporter supply me with the +next number. + +The first letter mentioned by Mr. McKenzie is the letter dated February +17, 1964, addressed to Mr. McKenzie, and signed by Mr. Robert L. +Oswald, witnessed by Mr. Henry Baer, Joan Connelly, and Peter White. +That will be marked Commission Exhibit No. 272. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 272, for +identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. The second letter mentioned by Mr. McKenzie is dated +February 18, 1964, also addressed to Mr. McKenzie, signed by Mrs. +Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Declan P. Ford, Katherine N. Ford, +and Joan Connelly. That will be marked Commission Exhibit 273. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 273, for +identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. The next letter is dated February 18, 1964, and addressed +to Mr. James H. Martin, identified by Mr. McKenzie, and signed by Mrs. +Marina N. Oswald, witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford. Two pages. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 274 for +identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. The next and last of the series is a letter of the same +date, February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. Thorne, John M. Thorne, +signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford, +two pages. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 275 for +identification.) + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may at this time, I would like to make +one other statement to the Commission. + +The CHAIRMAN. Before you do that, may I ask if you want those +introduced into evidence? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. + +I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 272 through 275, inclusive, +the documents that have been so identified and marked. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. + +(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 272 through +275, inclusive, for identification, were received in evidence.) + +The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. McKenzie? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. + +We have brought with us the original copies of various letters received +from--dating from 1959 through 1962, from Lee Harvey Oswald to Robert +L. Oswald, together with some copies of a contract between Mr. +Oswald--Robert Oswald, Marina Oswald, John Thorne, and James Martin. We +bring those voluntarily and gladly. I would like to give them to the +Commission with the understanding and stipulation that they will not +be released to the press or to any news media, with the exception and +understanding of your final report. + +The CHAIRMAN. That is the only purpose we would have in having them, +and we will not release them to the press or to any other person. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I understand that, sir. And the only reason I make that +stipulation is for the record. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. With the understanding that the Commission will use +it for any purpose that is within the scope of the Executive order. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Absolutely. + +The CHAIRMAN. And for no other purpose. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Absolutely. + +The CHAIRMAN. Do you want to keep the originals and have copies made +for us, or do you want to leave the originals with us? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Well, sir, we have already started making the copies this +morning. + +The CHAIRMAN. That is all right. Either way you want to do it. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Whichever way the Commission would prefer. + +But we have started making copies this morning. + +The CHAIRMAN. That is all right, then. You may do it that way. + +Mr. Jenner, I guess you may proceed. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. + +We have made copies of a number of the originals, additional ones of +which are also being made. And as I identify the documents, I will be +asking leave to introduce photostatic or xerox copies of the originals, +and I will so indicate at the appropriate moment. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, Mr. Dulles--we have had a very short +session with Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Oswald, which has been pleasant +and of the character indicated here, with full cooperation by both +gentlemen. And we have explained to Mr. Oswald that this particular +phase of the matter covers Lee Harvey Oswald's entire life, and I added +it also covered Mr. Oswald's life. + +At times the particular thrust of the examination might not be +particularly apparent to Mr. McKenzie, but he is at liberty to inquire +as the case might be. But we are covering the entire lives. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, would you be good enough to state your full +name? + +Mr. OSWALD. Robert Edward Lee Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. And you reside now where? + +Mr. OSWALD. At 1009 Sierra Drive, Denton, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your present business or occupation? + +Mr. OSWALD. I am employed by the Acme Brick Co. in the capacity of +sales coordinator. + +Mr. JENNER. What city or town? + +Mr. OSWALD. Denton, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the nature of your employment by that company? + +Mr. OSWALD. I am in the market department of the Acme Brick Co., +coordinating between the marketing and plant department, scheduling the +plant's production, processing and handling all orders, correspondence +relating to the orders, and generally following through in the line +of customers service, from prior to placing the orders by various +customers, architects, home builders and so forth, to the completion of +the invoices. + +Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been so employed by the Acme Brick +Co.? + +Mr. OSWALD. April of this year, 1964, will be 4 years. + +Mr. JENNER. And I think it might be helpful at this point--what is the +date of your birth? + +Mr. OSWALD. April 7, 1934, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Can you tell me how many years old you are? + +Mr. OSWALD. I will be 30 years old April 7, 1964. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jenner, if you excuse me now, I am going to attend +a session of the Supreme Court. And if you are here this afternoon, I +will be back to be with you. + +Mr. DULLES (presiding). You may proceed, Mr. Jenner. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. Mr. Dulles. + +Would you identify your family--Mrs. Oswald, and your two fine children? + +Mr. OSWALD. Thank you. My wife's name is Vada Marie Oswald. My +daughter's name is Cathy Marie Oswald, and my son's name is Robert Lee +Edward Oswald, Jr. + +Mr. JENNER. The ages? + +Mr. OSWALD. Cathy is 6 years old, and Robert Lee will be 3 years old +this April. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you give us Mrs. Oswald's maiden name? + +Mr. OSWALD. Vada Marie Mercer. + +Mr. JENNER. She is a native of your present town? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. She is from Keeter, Tex. My wife was raised +on a farm. This community is located close to Boyd, Tex., which is +approximately 35 miles northwest of Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Your father's full name? + +Mr. OSWALD. Robert Edward Lee Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Edward? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And he is now deceased? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And as I recall, he died in August of 1939. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. You were then about what--5 years old? + +Mr. OSWALD. Five years old, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, your mother is Marguerite Oswald? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her middle name? + +Mr. OSWALD. Claverie. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was her maiden name? + +Mr. OSWALD. I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. I think it was Claverie. You have a brother, John Pic? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. John Edward Pic. + +Mr. JENNER. And he is a stepbrother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And born of a marriage of your mother with whom? + +Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me. He is a half brother. + +Mr. McKENZIE. He is a half brother, Mr. Jenner. + +Mr. JENNER. I am sorry to say that meant the same thing to me. But I am +probably in error. A half brother. + +Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry. I didn't hear the next question. + +Mr. JENNER. That is all right. You correct me when I am wrong. Don't +hesitate to do that. + +Your half brother's father was whom? + +Mr. OSWALD. This I do not know. I don't know his full name. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it John, to the best of your recollection? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion it was John. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever met him? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. You never had any acquaintance with him? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I might further say I don't believe I have ever +seen a picture identified as being John's father. + +Mr. DULLES. You are speaking of the father now? + +Mr. JENNER. That is correct, sir. + +And your half brother, John Pic, is older than you, is he not? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you happen to recall his age? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he is now 33 years old. His birthday is January +17, 1932. + +Mr. JENNER. During your lifetime, you have had contact with him, have +you not? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And as boys, the family lived together? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, your mother, Mrs. Marguerite Claverie Oswald, was +married a third time, was she not? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. To whom? + +Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Edwin, I believe his middle initial was M. Ekdahl. + +Mr. JENNER. When did that marriage take place, to the best of your +recollection? + +Mr. OSWALD. 1944 or early '45. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you present on that occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you become acquainted with him prior to the time of the +marriage of your mother to Mr. Ekdahl? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I certainly did. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the general circumstances? + +Mr. OSWALD. Well, we was residing at Dallas, Tex. I don't recall the +address. It was Victor Street. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say "we"---- + +Mr. OSWALD. It was my mother, John Edward Pic, myself, and Lee Harvey +Oswald. + +Residing at the Victor Street address, in Dallas, Tex. I recall that +perhaps more numerous occasions he was there--now I can say three or +four times he was around the house prior to the marriage. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was the nature of your mother's employment, if she +was employed, in the period immediately preceding the marriage of your +mother to Mr. Ekdahl? + +Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir, I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. But she was employed? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I do recall that this was quite a large house. It +was a two-story house. And she was renting apartments. + +Mr. JENNER. Serving as a rental agent? + +Mr. OSWALD. No. She owned the house, to my knowledge--she owned this +house. I believe there were two upstairs apartments. + +Mr. JENNER. In addition to that, was your mother separately or +independently employed--that is independently from---- + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe so, sir. Where, I do not recall. + +Mr. JENNER. And at that time all three of you boys were +attending--would that be elementary school at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Elementary school, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. In Dallas? + +Mr. OSWALD. Lee was not. + +Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon? + +Mr. OSWALD. This would have been prior to Lee's sixth birthday, I +believe, and he would not be attending at that particular time. + +Mr. JENNER. But you and your brother John were? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to tell the Commission as much as +you can recall, especially of your early life--elementary school days. +We are not going to probe into this in any great length. But we would +like the background and flavor in which the family lived. + +Start as early as you have any reasonable recollection. + +Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. + +I believe after my father's death in 1939, John was attending +elementary school. We lived at the corner of Alvar and Galvez, in +New Orleans, La. And the school was right across the street from us, +elementary school. + +John, of course, started---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. + +Did I ask you where you were born? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, you did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you state that? + +Mr. OSWALD. I was born in New Orleans, La. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Excuse the interruption. + +Mr. OSWALD. John attended the school approximately 2 years before I +started elementary school. And during this time, the way I remember it, +it was a frame building. But by the time I attended first grade it was +a brick school building. + +I do not recall attending for a very long period, because I believe---- + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the name of the elementary school? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may interrupt at this time--Robert, in +giving this narrative, tie it down as closely as you possibly can to +date, to names, to street addresses--just give us as complete detail as +you possibly can. + +Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. The names of the school, the names of your teachers, and +so forth, if you recall. + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe I was at the point that I don't recall attending +this school very much. I perhaps was there the first full year. +However, approximately around this time--this would be in 1941--mother +placed John Edward and myself in a Catholic school, which I do not +recall the name of, but it was located in Algiers, La. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that a suburb of New Orleans? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Just across the Mississippi River from New Orleans proper. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question, Mr. Jenner? + +In this school, did you live there, and spend the night there--you were +living there all the time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Or were you going home? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we were living there. + +Lee, of course, at this time, was still very young, and he stayed with +mother. I don't recall any address particularly at that time. We were +at the Catholic school for approximately 1 year. + +Mr. JENNER. That would take you to 1942. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +And, at that time we were moved by mother from the Catholic school and +placed into the Bethlehem Orphan Home, in New Orleans, La. + +We used to refer to it as the BOH. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, if I interrupt you at that point. + +That would be 1942? + +Mr. OSWALD. The best I can remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Lee was only 3 years old. So the "we" did not include Lee, +is that correct, sir? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. It included John Edward and myself. + +Mr. JENNER. As Mr. Dulles inquired of you at the Catholic school--was +this an orphan home in which both you and John lived at the home? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Twenty-four hours a day? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did Lee reside during this period of your life? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall the address at that particular time. + +I might state that I know mother had sold the house on Alvar and Galvez +Streets in New Orleans, and they were living elsewhere, I remember the +house, but I cannot remember the address. + +Mr. JENNER. I was particularly interested in whether Lee was living +with your mother. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. He was at this time living with mother. And it +is my understanding from her, during later years, discussing with her, +that she had various maids or housekeepers come in to keep Lee at this +early age. + +Mr. JENNER. So, I take it, she was employed. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she also employed during the 1 year when you boys were +at the Catholic school? + +Mr. OSWALD. I am sure--I feel sure she was, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Could we say, except as I might return to the subject +specifically, that from the time of the death of your father, in August +of 1939, at least until the time of her marriage with Mr. Ekdahl, she +was always employed, either continuously or with short breaks? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we certainly can. + +Mr. JENNER. She was the sole support, as far as you know, of your +family? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +I interrupted you--pardon me. + +You and John entered the Bethlehem Orphan Home. Would you describe to +us the nature of that school? + +Mr. OSWALD. Well---- + +Mr. JENNER. Was it a public or private institution? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say it was a private home. The atmosphere +generally--of course all the boys and girls were separated--I recall +just one large dormitory building, sleeping area and so forth. The +cafeteria was located---- + +Mr. DULLES. Could you tell us about how many there were in this +orphanage, roughly? Was it 50, 100, 200? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say around 75 to 100, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. So you are now about 8 years old, am I correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. 1942--that would be correct, sir. + +The cafeteria was located in a separate, or perhaps a wing of this +large dormitory building. The school area was located in a separate +building towards the entrance of the home. There was quite a large +playground there, and quite a large playroom within that large +dormitory. + +Mr. McKENZIE. The home itself was located in New Orleans, is that +correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. In the city proper, rather than a suburb? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say that was so, sir. I still recall that it was +pretty close to the end of the St. Charles Street carline at that +particular time. + +My recollection of the atmosphere and the general conditions there--it +was nice, I had a lot of friends there at the home. It was a Christian +atmosphere. + +Going back to the Catholic school--we had to go to church every morning +and so forth like that. + +But here at the tables and so forth we had our grace and such as that. +It was generally a Christian atmosphere there. He treated us well, I +might add--better than the Catholic school did. They were not as strict +as far as discipline was concerned, but they certainly kept us in line. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there? + +Was this a denominational school, or a publicly maintained school? + +Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe it was a denominational school. I believe +it was a public--I feel it was a private school or home. But that the +religious background did not have anything to do with it. It might have +been just a Protestant home. + +Mr. JENNER. I am curious, if I may, Mr. Dulles--the name of this school +or home is the Bethlehem Orphan Home. But neither of you boys was an +orphan. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that apart from the name of the school, +there were orphans and young people, children such as you, whose +mothers, or perhaps fathers, were unable to take care of them during +the daytime completely, and the school accepted children under those +circumstances. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is my understanding. + +Mr. JENNER. Therefore, it was not exclusively for orphans? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. I think I have read somewhere--I would like to ask, if I +may--I understand there had to be only one parent, though. I don't +think if you had two parents you were eligible for this school. I +don't know where I read that, but I recollect that. + +Is that the case, do you remember? + +Mr. OSWALD. My recollection on that, sir, was that I do recall mother +saying something that there was a little difficulty in placing us in +there, because we were not orphans. But that they had from time to +time made exceptions to this, where one parent was living and unable +to attend the children fully during the day and so forth, and even at +night. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you entered in 1942. Did you and John continue in this +school--for what period of time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Until we moved to Dallas, in 1944, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Before we get to that, has Mr. Oswald responded to the +questions you had in mind, to describe the nature of the school? + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you visited by your mother and Lee to the extent that +she brought him along, when you and John were in the Bethlehem Orphan +Home? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were. I do recall quite vividly that on +Wednesdays--this perhaps might have been during the summer months +only--that John and I would go to downtown New Orleans and meet mother +at her place of employment, and either spend the afternoon with her, or +she would give us money to go to a movie or something. And at this time +mother was employed as a manager or assistant manager of a hosiery shop +located on Canal Street. I don't recall the name of it, or the exact +address of it. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to inform the Commission to the +best of your recollection about weekends? Did your mother visit you on +weekends? Were you free to return home and spend the weekend? Describe +that, please. + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall on the weekends--a weekend, I should +say, that we visited mother. Normally, we just saw her once a week +at that particular time. I do not recall--I have been thinking about +this--seeing Lee too often at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. You and John would be naturally curious to see him once in +awhile? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I know we did. I cannot remember it too clearly. + +But I would say that it wasn't too frequently that we did see Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you moved to Dallas in 1944? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there anything unusual prior to the time you moved to +Dallas about your life and your relationships with your mother and with +Lee, if any? Was there an event that is now etched on your mind? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would like to back up there just a little bit. + +Lee was placed at the Bethlehem Orphan Home for approximately the last +year that we were there. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be, then, 1943? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. DULLES. He would have been 4 to 5 years old then? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. He was born in October 1939. So he would then be +approximately 4--well, when he was placed in Bethlehem Home it was some +time during the year 1943, to the best of your recollection? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to relate to the Commission the +circumstances that brought that about? What do you recall as to why? + +Mr. OSWALD. My opinion on that, sir, was this. That mother had wanted +to bring Lee to the home at an earlier date, but that they had a +minimum age required before he could be placed in there, because they +did not have any real small children there. I mean there was no nursery +there that I recall. And there was no very young children. When I say +very young--say under 3 years old. + +I remember some children there that perhaps were four or three and a +half years old. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it, Mr. Oswald, your mother put Lee in the orphan +home at the first opportunity open to her under the rules or policy of +the Bethlehem Orphan Home in that respect. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, did she come to visit the home when Lee was placed in +the home? + +If I may, you recall you said you were free on Wednesdays, it may have +been limited to the summer time, and you and John would go into the New +Orleans town district and visit your mother. + +Did she come to see Lee? Does that stimulate your recollection that she +did come to visit? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did come to visit us. I recall after Lee +was placed in the home, that all three of us would go down and visit +mother, and we always took Lee with us. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. What contact did you have with Lee in that 1-year +period, in 1943, when he was with you boys in the home? + +Mr. OSWALD. John and I both looked on Lee as our kid brother, and we +stayed pretty close to him, and defended him whenever we had to. + +Mr. JENNER. How did Lee get along during those days? + +Let's confine it to up to 1944, when you moved to Dallas. + +Mr. OSWALD. I don't recall any instance where it would stand out in my +mind that he did not get along with anybody. + +Mr. JENNER. He had the normal life of a 4-year-old at that particular +time--got into his fights to the extent everyone else did? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. You mean at the time he was 4 years old? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. There may be others who would be interested in his course +of conduct and his reactions even at age 4. You will forgive me for +going into that. + +Mr. OSWALD. Certainly. + +Mr. JENNER. But your present recollection, as far as Lee's relationship +with other 4-year-olds or 5's or 3's, his general course of conduct, +with regard to the interplay between himself and others at or near his +age, is what you would describe as normal? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Now we are moving to Dallas in 1944. You brought out the fact that Lee +became enrolled in Bethlehem Orphan Home, because I asked you questions +whether there was anything unusual etched on your mind at that time +that had occurred up to the point of your moving to Dallas. Was there +anything else that this discussion, that is now stimulated that you +would like to report? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I cannot think of anything else. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, what was the reason you moved to Dallas? + +Mr. OSWALD. I don't really know, sir. Of course we were quite happy to +leave the Bethlehem Orphan Home. By that, I don't mean to imply that +they didn't treat us well there. But, of course, we were quite happy to +be with mother again, all of us together. + +As to the reason why mother moved us to Dallas, I do not know. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when you moved to Dallas, you resided--can you recall +the address or at least approximately where you lived in Dallas? + +Mr. OSWALD. As I recall, it was Victor Street. It was a corner house, +a large two-story white--I feel sure it was a frame white house. The +garage was to the back side of the house. Victor Street ran in front +of the house, and another street down the side where you entered the +garage. + +Mr. JENNER. I don't think I asked you this. It is a little bit out of +order. + +Do you happen to recall your brother John's date of birth? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; you did ask me that. It was January 17, 1932. +Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you. + +Your mother, did she become immediately employed in Dallas, or had she +already arranged for employment in Dallas? + +Mr. OSWALD. This I do not recall, sir. I feel more like that she +perhaps had arranged for employment in Dallas before we moved there. I +would think this would be the natural thing to do. We had never been to +Texas before. And, to my knowledge, she didn't know anybody in Texas. + +And why we moved to Dallas, I certainly don't recall any reason at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any relatives in Dallas? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did Mr. Ekdahl reside? Was he living in or a native +of Dallas? + +Mr. OSWALD. I understand Mr. Ekdahl was from Boston, Mass., and he +was at that time--I believe that is correct, sir--at least the way I +remember it--employed by the Texas Electric Co. + +Mr. JENNER. At what office? + +Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas. It might not have been Texas Electric. Texas +Power and Light, perhaps--something like that. + +Mr. JENNER. But Mr. Ekdahl was then living in Dallas when you, your +mother, your brother John, and your brother Lee moved to Dallas? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And had you become--you boys become acquainted with Mr. +Ekdahl prior to the time you moved to Dallas? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you recall any discussion of Mr. Ekdahl prior to the +time of your moving to Dallas? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, your education was, of course, continued when you +moved to Dallas. + +Would you tell us about that--all three of you? You and your brother +John first, because Lee was not yet of school age. + +Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. + +I recall the elementary school there in Dallas. It was the Davy +Crockett Elementary School, which was approximately three or four +blocks from the house. + +Mr. DULLES. What was that name? + +Mr. OSWALD. Davy Crockett. + +Mr. JENNER. Both you and your brother John were enrolled? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And there was--I believe it was a city park right +across the street from this elementary school that I recall playing +ping pong and croquet and swimming over there, and such as that. + +Mr. JENNER. This period of your life, as you recall it, was a pleasant +one? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And except for the restrictions that you and John +encountered in the Catholic school and in the Bethlehem Orphan Home, +what is your recollection of that early period of your life--subject to +those limitations--normal and pleasant? + +Mr. OSWALD. The only thing I can remember--I did have a little +difficulty because I had something of a southern drawl. + +Mr. JENNER. When you reached Texas? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I do recall having a little difficulty in +school myself, to make myself clearly understood. + +Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question there? + +When you went to the Davy Crockett School, was that a school where you +lived, or did you live at home and just attend the school during the +school hours? + +Mr. OSWALD. That was a public school in Dallas, and we did not live +there. We lived at home. + +Mr. DULLES. And your mother then was employed, as I understand it. + +Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my knowledge--I feel certain she was +employed. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the nature of her employment there? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. She was employed full-time during the daytime, home on +weekends? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, what was happening to Lee when you were living in +Dallas--in the sense of who took care of him during the daytime, if +anyone? What was done for his comfort? + +Mr. OSWALD. This I don't remember, sir. I don't remember any +housekeeper or any maid that mother had at this time. Something is +coming into my mind about a day nursery. I think perhaps---- + +Mr. JENNER. A day nursery? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--that Lee was taken to during the day when Mother +was working, and brought home with her at night. I believe that is +correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you boys take him to the day nursery and bring him +home? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you play any part in that at all? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not have any recollection of taking Lee to +the day nursery or bringing him back. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please indicate how long you remained in the +Davy Crockett Elementary School, you and John? + +Mr. OSWALD. Say for 1 year, sir, 1 school year. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Now, during this year, did you become acquainted with Mr. Ekdahl? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I would say towards the latter part of that +school year. + +Mr. JENNER. He could come--he did on occasion come to visit your +mother's home? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please indicate whether the contact that you +boys had with Mr. Ekdahl about that--that is, he would visit the home +occasionally? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he take you boys out? + +Mr. OSWALD. I don't recall. I think perhaps on maybe two occasions we +did go to the zoo. I don't recall any other occasions. + +Mr. JENNER. We now have you towards the latter part of the year--you +were now 9 years old. Am I correct about that? + +Mr. OSWALD. 1944, I would be 10 years old. + +Mr. JENNER. Your brother John was 12? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And your brother Lee was then 5? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you continue--when did you change--you said you stayed +at Davy Crockett Elementary School a year. And then you entered what +school? + +Mr. OSWALD. In the fall of that year we entered Chamberlain-Hunt +Military Academy, at Port Gibson, Miss. That was the fall of 1945. + +Mr. JENNER. You and John? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, what was the date that you gave me as to the marriage +of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl? + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the early part of 1944. That is what I +stated before. And I think now that it would be more correct--after +we completed the year at Davy Crockett, I believe they were married +shortly after the end of the school year. + +Mr. JENNER. That is in June, probably? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; somewhere along that time. + +Mr. JENNER. And that would be--June of '44? + +Mr. McKENZIE. June of '45. + +Mr. JENNER. So that following the marriage of your mother and Mr. +Ekdahl--what was his full name? + +Mr. OSWALD. Edwin A. Ekdahl. I believe his middle initial was "A." + +Mr. JENNER. And he was employed, as you stated, by a utility company in +Dallas at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, do you have a recollection or did you come to learn +the arrangements, if any, between Mr. Ekdahl and your mother as to +the financing of the attendance of yourself and your brother John at +Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy? + +Mr. OSWALD. My mother told us that she was taking care of all the +expenses at the Academy. + +Mr. JENNER. She told you at this time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This is my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was your understanding of both you and John at +that particular time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That she was financing your attendance at the military +academy? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Was she working at that time, or during the period that she +was married to Mr. Ekdahl was she a housewife? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe after the marriage to Mr. Ekdahl, she was not +working. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with her, and did you then come +to learn, or have you subsequently come to learn as to how she did +finance your attendance at the military academy? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I assume at that particular time that--I +did not know the quantity of life insurance that my father had when he +passed away. I thought it was perhaps substantial. Perhaps to me at +that time, a young age, $4,000 or $5,000 was a lot of money. From the +insurance money, from my father's death, she was able to place us in +this military school in Mississippi. + +Mr. JENNER. Do I recall correctly that you also testified earlier that +your mother sold--there was a home in New Orleans which was sold? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And possibly some of the proceeds of the sale of that home +were still intact? + +Mr. OSWALD. This would be my opinion, that it was. I do not know if the +home was paid for or anything. + +Mr. JENNER. This is all speculation? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may interrupt. + +Robert, don't speculate, and don't give any conjecture. Tell what you +know, and give them the facts as fully as possible. But I am confident +that the Commission is not interested in any speculation. + +Mr. JENNER. And if you do speculate, tell us so. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes--indicate that you are speculating. + +Mr. DULLES. Do we know the amount of insurance on Mr. Oswald's life? + +Mr. JENNER. I cannot give you the figure, but it is small. + +Mr. DULLES. It is known in the record? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. May I ask a question? + +Following your mother's marriage to Mr. Ekdahl, did he move in to +the residence where you were living, or vice versa, or what were the +circumstances? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. He did move into the home on Victor Street, +following the marriage. + +Mr. DULLES. You were living, though, in the military academy. Was that +a school where you lived? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. You lived there? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Day and night? + +Mr. OSWALD. During the period that we went to the military school, we +stayed there day and night, through the 9 months of the school year. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the distance from Dallas--in general--to the +military school? + +Mr. McKENZIE. It is approximately 600 or 700 miles. + +Mr. OSWALD. It was 30 miles south of Vicksburg, Miss. + +Mr. JENNER. Quite a distance? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. So you could not go home weekends? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we did not go home weekends. + +Mr. JENNER. From the time of the marriage of your mother to Mr. Ekdahl, +to the time you boys left for military school, you all lived in the +home on Victor Street? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He moved into the home immediately upon the marriage? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question? + +Was there a summer holiday, then, when you went home from the military +academy? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. You were home for 3 months, roughly? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. That would be in the summer of '45? + +Mr. OSWALD. The summer of '46. + +Mr. JENNER. It might help if you tell us how long you and John remained +at the military school. + +Mr. OSWALD. Three school years. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be in 1945, 1946, and 1947. + +So that you left the military school approximately in June of 1947, is +that correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. That would be correct. + +Mr. JENNER. '48 or '47? + +Mr. OSWALD. Well, the school year would be 1945 through '46 would be 1 +year, '46 through '47 would be 2 years, '47 through '48 would be the +third year. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. June of '48? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I might say there, when school--the last year +that we were there, when school was completed, mother had indicated +to us that she wanted us to go to summer school and stay up there +that summer. And we did, John and I, stay there at the school after +practically all the other ones had left, because I recall helping pack +away some old Springfield rifles at that time in Cosmolene. + +Mr. JENNER. The marriage of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl terminated in +divorce, as I recall it. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall approximately when that was? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I believe that this would be some time in '47. +I believe she had divorced Mr. Ekdahl before our final year at the +academy. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Liebeler will get the date. I don't recall it myself at +the moment. + +Did your mother and Mr. Ekdahl have occasion during this 3-year period, +plus the summer school, to visit you and John in the military academy? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did. I recall Mr. Ekdahl coming there with +mother and Lee in a 1939 Buick at that time, that I recall. I don't +recall many occasions that Mr. Ekdahl was there. I might state that at +Christmas time I believe on each year that we were up at the military +school that we returned home. By home, I mean Fort Worth, or wherever +they were living. One year I believe it was Benbrook, Tex., outside of +Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you be good enough, having mentioned that, to +state for the record where your mother and Mr. Ekdahl resided during +the period of time you were at the military school? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe the first year---- + +Mr. JENNER. Chronologically. + +Mr. OSWALD. The first year that we attended there, Mr. Ekdahl was on +the road quite a bit. And they had during the winter of 1945 gone to +Boston, where they stayed, I would say, for approximately 6 months. +I understand Mr. Ekdahl had been married and had a son by a prior +marriage, and they had lived together, all of them--Lee, my mother, Mr. +Ekdahl, and his son--in Boston. But that he was on the road quite a +bit. And I recall a picture of mother and Lee in Arizona. + +Mr. JENNER. Living in Arizona? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not living. On one of the trips. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Representative FORD. One of the trips with Mr. Ekdahl? + +Mr. OSWALD. Ekdahl, and mother and Lee had gone along with him. Whether +this was a business trip or a vacation trip, I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Following their living for 6 months in Boston, where did they live +thereafter, during that period of time, until the divorce? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe after they left Massachusetts, they moved to +Benbrook, Tex., and resided at Benbrook, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. And where is Benbrook with respect to Dallas? + +Mr. OSWALD. It is--well, with respect to Fort Worth, that to me would +be easier to say, it is just a little ways northwest of Fort Worth, +on the edge of the city limits of Fort Worth now. At this particular +time it was just more or less a wide spot in the road. The house--I +recall going there, perhaps this was during Christmas leave from the +academy--the house was a good sized stone home that had some acreage +with it. There was a creek that was perhaps 400 or 500 yards behind the +house. I remember, I believe, right before we arrived on this first +occasion, Lee had found a skunk out there. He didn't know what a skunk +was, but he found out. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Benbrook is a suburb of Fort Worth. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, Benbrook is a suburb of Fort Worth. + +As I indicated, at that time---- + +Mr. JENNER. Could you fix the year? + +Mr. OSWALD. This would be--I feel certain that this was the first year +that we were in military school, and the first Christmas. + +Mr. JENNER. The first Christmas. That would be Christmas 1945. + +Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me. Let me back up earlier. + +They were in Massachusetts at that time. + +This would be the second year. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, the first Christmas, 1945, included the +period when your mother, Mr. Ekdahl, and Lee resided in Boston with Mr. +Ekdahl's son by a former marriage. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And that the living in Benbrook, Tex., followed the +termination of the stay in Boston? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +But I do recall now the first Christmas that I was at the military +school, because they were so far away, and it was impractical to travel +that distance in that length of time--that John went with some friends +of his that he made at the academy and stayed at their home--I don't +recall where. + +I remember I went with one of my friends and stayed at his home during +Christmas. + +Mr. JENNER. These were friends of yours in the academy? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. And their parents agreed to that--because +they didn't want us to stay up in the academy at Christmas time more or +less by ourselves. They wanted to have us with them. + +Mr. JENNER. You seem to have a rather vivid recollection of the +Benbrook, Tex., home. I take it that during a summer vacation you lived +in Benbrook, Tex., with your mother and Mr. Ekdahl and Lee. + +Mr. OSWALD. This particular house I refer to, a native stone home--I +believe that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. So that you did have at least two summers at home while you +were at the military academy, and the third summer your mother asked +you to stay during summer school, and you did not come home? + +Mr. OSWALD. She asked us, and it was the intent that we stay. But +at the last moment we did not go to summer school that year at the +academy. We did come to Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt you please? + +Robert, when did you leave, or when did your mother sell the house on +Victor Street in Dallas. Tex., if you recall? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe she sold it at the time that they moved to +Boston, Mass. + +Mr. McKENZIE. That was some time prior to Christmas of 1945, is that +correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +If I may ask this, sir: If someone would furnish me the date of the +divorce. I believe this would help tie down some other dates. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. McKENZIE. I want to assure the Commission and counsel that the copy +of the transcript of Robert Oswald's testimony will not be given to the +press until such time as the Commission makes its final report--if at +that time. + +Representative FORD. I think that is most important, that we don't +indicate that they will never be given to the press. + +Mr. DULLES. No. That was made clear before you came in--that this would +be available for use in connection with the report in any way that the +Commission saw fit. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it all right to proceed, sir? + +Mr. DULLES. Yes, please, Mr. Jenner. + +Mr. JENNER. The second residence, then, was--I mean the second one +during this particular period we were talking about, was in Benbrook, +Tex. + +How long, or over what period of time did your family reside in +Benbrook, Tex.? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say at least approximately a year or a year and a +half at that particular house. + +Mr. JENNER. You say in that particular house. Did they occupy another +home in Benbrook, Tex.? + +Mr. OSWALD. This was--on our return from military school, the last year +we attended, when we returned, mother had purchased a small home there +in Benbrook, a little bit closer in to Fort Worth. + +Mr. DULLES. This was after the divorce? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; this was after the divorce. + +Representative FORD. She owned the original house in Benbrook? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not the stone house. I believe Mr. Ekdahl had +rented that house, or leased it. + +Representative FORD. Then she purchased this second house? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. After the divorce, she purchased this +smaller home. + +Mr. JENNER. Until you boys returned from military academy, or at least +until the time of the divorce of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl, she was +not employed? She was home? + +Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, that is correct. She was not employed at +that time, or during the marriage to Mr. Ekdahl--she was not employed +at any time I am aware of. + +Mr. JENNER. And able to give the normal and full time and attention of +a mother to her son, Lee? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, to the best of my knowledge. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, during the summertime, when you did spend summer +vacations back in Benbrook, Tex., you had an opportunity to observe +personally on this subject, did you not? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That your mother was not employed, and she was caring for +Lee during that period? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she have any assistance? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not. None that I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. No household help? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I recall. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there? Maybe you are going to cover +that. I would like to ask as to--was Lee Harvey going to kindergarten +at this time, or where was he from an educational point of view? + +He was 7 or 8 years old now. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. He was 8 years old--he was 6 years old when they moved +to--the commencement of the military school period, your brother, Lee, +was 6 years old? + +Mr. OSWALD. Six years old. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is about the time when you enter elementary +school, is it not? + +Mr. OSWALD. That I entered elementary school? + +Mr. JENNER. No--children generally. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +I don't believe, however, though, that Lee at the age of 6 went to +elementary school. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what the circumstances were in that +connection, to the best of your recollection, and now. + +Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. To the best of my recollection, it was that +Mr. Ekdahl was traveling quite a bit, and that mother was traveling +with him, and Lee did not attend a school during that year. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee travel with them? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe that he did during that time. + +Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is my best recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. You are trying not to speculate. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I believe, to my best recollection, that the school +age--commencement age was 7 years old. + +Mr. DULLES. I think what we are trying to get at is what was Lee +doing--was he with the mother, was he in some kind of kindergarten? + +Do you recall during those 3 years you were in the military +academy--where was Lee? + +Representative FORD. When you say the school age, in Texas, you mean +the mandatory attendance age? + +Mr. JAWORSKI. That is correct. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, that is what I have reference to. + +Mr. JAWORSKI. I recall, if I may add, at the age of 6, children were +normally sent to kindergarten in those days. + +Mr. JENNER. As you have now related it to us, Mr. Oswald, in this +period, let's call it the military school period because we have +identified the time question--at the commencement Lee was then 6 years +old. And as we now learn, normally that would be a kindergarten period. + +He was traveling or accompanied his mother, your mother, and Mr. Ekdahl +in their travels in connection with Mr. Ekdahl's business, and he was +not either in kindergarten or otherwise in school. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am of this opinion--he was not. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was your information at the time that you and John +were attending military school? + +Mr. OSWALD. That would be correct, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you know where he was, and who was taking care of him +during that period--if your mother was traveling with Mr. Ekdahl? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe Lee was going with them, sir, during these +travels. I don't recall--other than this one photograph--at one time +they were out in Arizona. I don't recall any other places that they +traveled to. I am sure mother, she was writing us quite frequently, +John and I, usually just one letter to both of us--any other names or +areas that they had traveled during this period. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, may we proceed to the succeeding school period, which +would be the year '46-'47. He is now at that time 7 years of age. Your +mother and Mr. Ekdahl and Lee were then residing in Benbrook, Tex. + +Mr. OSWALD. Benbrook; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee enter elementary school at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. I don't know if the school name was +Benbrook School. + +Mr. JENNER. It was an elementary school? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I know where it is located there and everything. +I believe it is closed down now. + +Mr. JENNER. You learned of this during the summer vacation, or from +letters from your mother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--perhaps both--one way or the other during that +period we were aware that Lee was attending school in Benbrook. + +Mr. JENNER. Up to this point what were the relationships between +yourself and your brother John? Cordial and normal brother +relationships? + +Mr. OSWALD. I might say then as now they were cordial. We always got +along. He was a little bit older than I was, of course. He had his +group of friends, I had mine. We got along just fine. + +Mr. JENNER. And the relationship of your brother John and yourself +on the one hand, and Lee on the other--let us take the 6- to 7- to +8-year-old period. + +Mr. OSWALD. John and I both, I feel, especially from my side, that we +were his big brothers, and when we were around Lee we took care of him. +We played together, to some extent, anyway. Perhaps our interests were +a little bit different than Lee's at that early age of his life--a +spread of 5 years between Lee and I and 7 years between Lee and John. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. That is quite a gap. + +A boy 6 years old who has a brother 11 years old--that would be +you--and a brother 13 years old, that would be John--at that age, that +is quite a gap. + +Did you spend much time with him, for example, when you were home +during the summer vacations? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I would say we did spend quite a bit of +time--both John and I--with Lee. + +I recall going fishing, things like that. But mostly I recall staying +at the house at Benbrook, the native stone home, out there, and staying +within the confines out there, and playing, and staying out there most +of the time. + +I do recall on a number of occasions that Mr. Ekdahl, my mother, +and all three of us would drive into Fort Worth and go to the movie +theater, which at that time was the closest one coming in from Benbrook +into Fort Worth. I recall going there quite a few times. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you relate for us as you recall now the relationships +between you and John--between you boys and your mother? Was that +a pleasant one? Were there any difficulties that you now recall? +Personality-wise, for example. + +Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall. At that time, I do recall one instance +out there at the house, stone house there in Benbrook--my mother was a +little upset with Mr. Ekdahl over the fact that--this was, I am sure, +the second Christmas we were there from military school. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be 1947? + +Mr. OSWALD. That would be 1947, Christmas 1946. He was showering us +with candies, cokes, and so forth. And mother thought that he was +overdoing it. And we argued the other way. We was on Mr. Ekdahl's side. + +Mr. JENNER. But your relations with your mother, as you recall them +now, during this period were pleasant, normal, and you were having no +difficulties with her? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; pleasant memories to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Anything other than the difficulties two lively boys have +when they are naughty? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Were you conscious at that time of the growing difficulty +between your mother and Mr. Ekdahl? Was that apparent at that time? Or +did that only come later? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. At that time, it was not apparent to me. + +Mr. DULLES. At no time was that a factor in your life, particularly? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I would say at no time it was. In moving up +perhaps there to the time of the divorce and everything, I don't +remember when Mr. Ekdahl moved out of the house. At that time we were +living on Eighth Avenue in Fort Worth. This was during a summer period +there. And I think this was the summer after the second year that we +attended there--this would be the summer of 1947. + +Mr. DULLES. If it is agreeable, I think we will adjourn for just a +minute. It is now 11 o'clock. + +Representative FORD. Mr. Dulles, may I suggest that we get what the law +was in Texas at the time, as to when children mandatorily had to attend +school? I think that can be checked out very simply and put in the +record. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. I think that should be in the record. + +(Brief recess.) + +Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order. We will resume, Mr. +Jenner, with your questions. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. + +It may well be, Mr. Chairman, that the Exhibits 272 through 275, which +although already admitted in evidence, may play some part in these +proceedings at some future date. And may I further qualify the exhibits. + +Mr. DULLES. Certainly. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, would you be good enough to hand them to the +witness? + +Would you turn to the second page of Exhibit No. 272, Mr. Oswald? Are +you familiar with the signatures on the second page of that exhibit? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, I am. + +Mr. JENNER. And would you identify them, please, in the order in which +they appear, and state whether or not they are the signatures of the +persons who purported to have signed? + +Mr. OSWALD. My signature, Robert L. Oswald, I signed it. Witnessed by +Henry Baer, Joan Connelly, and Pete White. And they are known to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they affix those signatures in your presence? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did. + +Mr. JENNER. And they are persons known to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them for the record? + +Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Henry Baer is a partner in William A. McKenzie's law +firm, in Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. He is Mr. McKenzie's partner? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes. + +Miss Joan Connelly is the secretary in that firm. + +And Mr. Pete White is an associate partner in the law firm of Mr. +McKenzie. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that that document was executed in Mr. +McKenzie's office. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Now, Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt at this point? I would +like to add for the record that I was not present at the time that this +letter was executed or witnessed. However, I did dictate it in the +presence of Mr. Oswald and, of course, to my secretary, and, of course, +to my partner, Henry Baer. + +Mr. JENNER. Is Miss Connelly your secretary? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you take the second letter in that group, and +give me the exhibit number--turn to the exhibit page and identify the +situation similarly, if you are acquainted with them, and state whether +it was signed in your presence and where. + +Mr. OSWALD. Commission Exhibit No. 273--I was not present when this +letter was signed. + +Mr. JENNER. Does the letter bear your signature? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it does not. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the signatures of those who purported +to have signed it? + +Mr. OSWALD. I am not familiar with the signature--I am familiar with +the signature of Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. I am not familiar with the +signature of Mr. Declan P. Ford or his wife, Katherine N. Ford. + +I am familiar with the signature of Joan Connelly, Mr. McKenzie's +secretary. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify who Mr. and Mrs. Ford are? + +Mr. OSWALD. The best way I could do that, I believe, is that they +are friends of Marina N. Oswald. I became acquainted with Mrs. Ford +on Wednesday 2 weeks ago, whatever date that is, and Mr. Ford the +following day. + +Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances under which you became +acquainted with Mrs. Ford? + +Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me just a minute. + +I would like to correct that. + +It was Tuesday rather than Wednesday 2 weeks ago that I first became +acquainted with Mrs. Ford. + +At that time, Mrs. Ford acted as an interpreter between Mr. Thorne and +myself to relate to Mrs. Marina Oswald what we were talking about. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. You mentioned a Mr. Thorne? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. John Thorne who at that time was the attorney +for Mrs. Marina Oswald? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And where did this take place? + +Mr. OSWALD. At my residence, at 1009 Sierra Drive, Denton, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. Who was present at that time in addition to yourself, Mr. +Thorne, and Mrs. Ford? + +Mr. OSWALD. My wife, Vada Marie Oswald, was present. + +Mr. JENNER. And your acquaintance with Mr. Ford, you say, was the +following day? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did that take place, and in whose presence? + +Mr. OSWALD. At my residence, again, in Denton, Tex., in the presence of +my wife, Vada, Mrs. Marina Oswald, and Mrs. Kathy Ford. + +Mr. JENNER. As to Mrs. Ford, it is 2 weeks ago last Tuesday, or 2 weeks +ago today? + +Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me just a minute. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Two weeks ago this past Tuesday. + +Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me. + +Mr. JENNER. I wish you would hesitate and make reasonably certain of +this. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I have erred here. + +Instead of being 2 weeks ago this past Tuesday, it was a week ago +Tuesday that I first met Kathy Ford. And it was the following day, on +that Wednesday, that I met Mr. Ford. In other words, I wish to correct +it was not 2 weeks ago, but 1 week ago. + +Mr. JENNER. Now that you have a calendar before you, would you give us +the date so we will have it in the record now? + +Mr. OSWALD. On Tuesday, February 11, 1964, was the day I first met Mrs. +Kathy Ford in the presence of Mr. John Thorne and my wife, Vada, in my +home in Denton, Tex. + +On February 12th I met Mr. Ford in the presence of my wife in my +residence at Denton, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. Returning to the exhibit to which you have been directing +your attention, which is No. 273, you were able to identify Mrs. Marina +Oswald's signature, and Miss Connelly's? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The others you were unable to identify? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Would you turn, then, to the next exhibit, give us the number? + +Mr. OSWALD. Commission Exhibit No. 274. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it signed on its face? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, then, directing your attention to the first page of +the exhibit, does it bear a signature? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. + +Mr. JENNER. Whose signature is it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Mr. William A. McKenzie. + +Mr. JENNER. This is the Mr. McKenzie present here representing you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And does that exhibit consist of more than 1 page? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does. + +Mr. JENNER. Turn to the second page. Does it bear a signature? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with those signatures? + +Mr. OSWALD. The two signatures appear on the second page. One I am +familiar with--Mrs. Marina Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. Is that the first of those that are in a +series? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And you are familiar with that, and that is her signature? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The next signature purports to be that of whom? + +Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Katherine Ford. + +Mr. JENNER. And your testimony, if I repeated the questions that I did +as to the previous exhibit, regarding Mrs. Ford, would be the same? You +are not familiar with her signature? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And the next signature, please? + +Mr. OSWALD. Sir? + +Mr. JENNER. The next signature? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is the only two signatures that appear on that second +page. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you proceed to the next exhibit? + +Mr. OSWALD. 275. + +Mr. JENNER. That consists of how many pages? + +Mr. OSWALD. Two pages. + +Mr. JENNER. Does it bear a signature on the first page? + +Mr. OSWALD. There is a signature on the first page. The signature is +Mr. William A. McKenzie. + +Mr. JENNER. You are familiar with that signature, and that is his +signature? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The same gentleman we have identified? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Are there any signatures on the second page of +that exhibit? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. There are two signatures on the second page, and +in order as they appear---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Are you familiar with either of them? + +Mr. OSWALD. I am familiar with one of them. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Let's take the first one, which is what? + +Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. You are familiar with her signature? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that her signature? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would say that was her signature. + +Mr. JENNER. And the second name appears to be that of whom? + +Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Katherine Ford. + +Mr. JENNER. And your testimony with respect to her, were I to pursue +it, would be the same as you testified to a previous exhibit, insofar +as your familiarity with her signature is concerned? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir. + +Forgive the interruption, Mr. Chairman. + +Mr. DULLES. That is all right. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, Mr. McKenzie has produced for us and tendered +to us four documents, during the recess, which I would wish to +identify. They have a relationship to the exhibits, the signatures of +which I have just finished having identified. + +Would you mark those, please, Mr. Liebeler? + +Mr. DULLES. Do you wish these admitted as exhibits? + +Mr. JENNER. If you please, sir. I would like to identify the exhibits +and indicate their content first. + +I would call on you, Mr. McKenzie, to identify the series of exhibits. +They are numbered, Mr. Chairman, Commission Exhibits 276, 277, 278, and +279. + +If you will identify them, I may have some questions of the witness. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, Exhibit No. 276 is a contract dated +December 6, 1963, addressed to Mr. James H. Martin, Dallas, Tex., and +signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, consisting of four pages. + +Mr. DULLES. I wish that admitted at this time with that description. + +Mr. JENNER. If I may put one question to the witness: Mr. Oswald, would +you look at the last page of that exhibit? Does it purport to bear a +signature? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature? + +Mr. OSWALD. There are three signatures. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with all of them? + +Mr. OSWALD. May I ask my attorney something here? + +Mr. JENNER. Surely. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may interrupt you, and pardon me for +doing so--on page 3 there is likewise a signature. And I think perhaps +he should start at that page. + +Mr. JENNER. That is a fine suggestion. + +Will you now refer to page 3. Does it bear a signature? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. + +Mr. JENNER. Whose signature is it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Turn to page 4. There are several signatures on that page, +is that correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. There are three. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with any of them? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you take them in order, taking the uppermost one +first. Indicate whether you are familiar with that signature, and whose +signature it is. + +Mr. OSWALD. It is my own signature, Robert Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. The next under that? + +Mr. OSWALD. Mr. James H. Martin. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is his signature? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Who is Mr. James H. Martin? + +Mr. OSWALD. He was, at that time, when this contract was signed, +appointed as Marina's business agent. But employed at the Inn of the +Six Flags at Arlington, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. He has been identified in previous sessions before the +Commission. + +And there is a third signature? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is. + +Mr. JENNER. And are you familiar with that signature? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. + +Mr. JENNER. Whose is it, please? + +Mr. OSWALD. Mr. John M. Thorne, Attorney. + +Mr. JENNER. And he is the Mr. Thorne that we have identified a few +moments ago? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He was at that time the attorney for Mrs. Marina Oswald? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there a fourth signature? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there is not. + +Mr. JENNER. Were those signatures affixed in your presence? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were. + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Jenner, I believe these are photostatic copies, are +they not, that are being identified? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McKenzie, would you please make a statement with respect to that? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. I was going to at this time, Mr. Jenner, +state for the record that Exhibit 276 is a photostatic copy. And this +photostatic copy was furnished to me by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. + +Mr. DULLES. Where is the original of that? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Marina N. Oswald has the original. + +Mr. DULLES. Has that been so compared, that we know this is a true copy? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman. Pardon me. + +I retract that statement. + +Marina N. Oswald furnished to me a copy of this exhibit, but it was a +signed copy, and it was an original copy. + +Mr. JENNER. A duplicate original? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes. And I presume Mr. James Martin had the original, +since it is addressed to him. + +Mr. DULLES. And both the original and this duplicate bear these +signatures, do they? + +Mr. McKENZIE. I have never seen the original, sir, but I presume that +they do. And I think Robert Oswald here can clarify that, because he +was present at the time that the original was signed, and also the +duplicate copies. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. And the duplicates were signed by the same parties as the +original? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. May I ask--did you get a copy of the original at +the time? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I received a copy in the mail the second day after +the signatures were signed. My copies were unsigned. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, were you present when all of the copies were +contemporaneously signed, if they were contemporaneously signed? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was. + +Mr. JENNER. So you know of your own knowledge that what has been termed +here the original, which may be in the possession of Mr. Martin, was +signed, and was signed in your presence? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And the document which we are now discussing is a +photostatic copy of a carbon copy of the original? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Executed contemporaneously with the original? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you have any further questions? + +Mr. DULLES. No, I have no further questions. + +Shall we admit this at this time, or do you want to wait until you have +gone through them all, and then admit them all? + +Mr. JENNER. It might be more convenient to identify them all, because +they are of a series, if I have your permission. + +Mr. DULLES. Certainly. + +Mr. McKENZIE. The next document is Commission Exhibit 277, and purports +to be a photocopy, or is a photocopy of a purported contract between +Marina N. Oswald and Robert Oswald, bearing the date of December 9, +1963, and purportedly signed by Marina N. Oswald, Robert L. Oswald, +John M. Thorne, attorney, and James H. Martin, approved as to form, and +consisting of two pages. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, if you would turn to the second page, please, sir--I +notice a recital, "Executed by the undersigned parties this Ninth day +of December A.D., 1963," and what purports to be your signature. + +Was this document, or that of which this is a Xerox copy, executed on +that date? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not have a calendar before me. If the ninth day of +December was a Monday, it was signed on that date. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles is checking the calendar. + +Mr. DULLES. I am afraid I don't have a 1963 calendar here. + +Mr. JENNER. I am observing a calendar, and the ninth was a Monday. + +Mr. McKenzie, does the previous document also bear a date? + +Mr. McKENZIE. It bears the date of December 6, Mr. Jenner. + +Mr. JENNER. December 6, then, was a Saturday. + +Mr. McKENZIE. If Monday was the ninth, Friday was the sixth. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the previous exhibit, which is numbered 276, executed +on December 6th? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. On what date was it executed? + +Mr. OSWALD. It was executed on Monday, December 9th. + +Mr. JENNER. Despite its bearing a date of December 6th, it was actually +executed on the ninth, when Commission Exhibit 277 was executed? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, directing your attention to the second page of Exhibit +No. 277, that likewise bears a series of signatures. I ask you first +whether those signatures were affixed in your presence? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, was the document now identified as 277, which is a +Xerox copy--was the original of Exhibit 277 executed at the same time +as the copy which you have produced for us executed? + +Mr. OSWALD. May I have that again, please, sir? + +Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. That is, there were a series of papers, original and carbon +copies, signed, at one and the same time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And all of them were signed in your presence? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Now, there are four signatures on that page. Would you proceed to state +your familiarity with those signatures and identify them? + +Mr. OSWALD. All right. + +Left to right, as the signatures appear--my signature, Robert L. Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. And to the right of that? + +Mr. OSWALD. And to the right of that, the signature of Mrs. Marina N. +Oswald, which I am familiar with. + +The next signature is Mr. John M. Thorne, attorney, and I am familiar +with his signature. + +And the last signature that appears on this second page, Mr. James H. +Martin. I am also familiar with his signature. + +Mr. JENNER. And these persons are the same persons you have heretofore +identified? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And is the document of which this 277 is a Xerox copy in +the same condition now as it was the time those signatures were affixed +to it? + +Mr. OSWALD. May I have a moment, sir? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that likewise true of Exhibit No. 276? + +Would you take a look at it, please? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. And if I may say this about +this--on page 3 of Exhibit 276, you will note that towards the upper +right-hand part of this page there was--on this copy, there is a dark +mark, following the word "royalties." + +Representative FORD. What page is that? + +Mr. OSWALD. Page 3, the sixth line, the word that was crossed off or +out of the contract was the word "gifts." + +Mr. JENNER. And was that done in the course of the discussion and +preceding the execution of the document? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. So the document is in the same condition it was when +executed? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you identify the next exhibit, Mr. McKenzie? + +Mr. McKENZIE. The next exhibit is a photocopy of an investment agency +agreement. It is Commission Exhibit No. 278. This exhibit bears the +date of December 30, 1963, and is an agreement by and between John +M. Thorne and James H. Martin, co-trustees, of Dallas County, Tex., +referred to in the exhibit as principal, and the First National Bank of +Fort Worth, Tex., referred to in the exhibit as agent. + +The exhibit consists of 3 pages, together with a schedule A and a +letter addressed to the Trust Department of the First National Bank of +Fort Worth, Tex. + +This exhibit is a photocopy of a photocopy of a duplicate original. + +I have seen the duplicate original upon which it had the names, +handwritten names of John M. Thorne, co-trustee, and James H. Martin, +co-trustee, as principal, on page 3, and Preston A. Utterbach, Vice +President and Trust Officer of the First National Bank of Fort Worth, +Tex. + +However, these Xerox copies of a copy, being a photocopy, do not have +the signatures on, because the second photocopy did not reproduce the +signatures. + +I have seen those. + +Mr. JENNER. The Xerox machine was unable to pick up the signatures? + +Mr. McKENZIE. No. The prior photocopy was unable to pick up the +signatures. + +Mr. DULLES. Because they had not been put on, or because they didn't +pick them up? + +Mr. McKENZIE. It would not pick them up, Mr. Dulles. The signatures +were on the instrument itself, but the photo machine would not +reproduce the signatures. + +Mr. JENNER. You actually saw the signatures? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did you see that document, Mr. McKenzie? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Marina N. Oswald gave it to me in my office. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you state the thrust or substance of those agreements? + +Mr. McKENZIE. The substance of it is that Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin, as +principals, constituted the First National Bank of Fort Worth as the +agent to hold certain trust funds, consisting, as shown by the exhibit, +attached to this exhibit, of $25,000. + +Mr. JENNER. It was deposited with the First National Bank of Fort Worth +under this trust and deposit agreement, agency agreement? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +I presume that to be true. I know Preston Utterbach. And if his +signature was on it, I know that the funds were deposited there at the +bank, or else he would not have executed it. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask the source of these funds, if you know? + +Mr. McKENZIE. I do not know them, sir. But Marina Oswald has told me +that she felt that the funds came from contributions made to herself +and her children, from various sources, of which I know nothing. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. McKenzie. + +Did you use the word "felt." She told you she felt? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, I did. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the extent of your personal knowledge? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, do you have any personal knowledge, apart from +or in addition to that of Mr. McKenzie, with respect to the source of +the funds? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say this was monies received through the mails, +and delivered in person to Mr. Thorne or perhaps Mr. Martin by various +people who wanted to contribute to Marina's welfare and her children's +welfare. + +Mr. JENNER. Upon what is your statement based? Conversations? + +Mr. OSWALD. Conversations, and also being---- + +Mr. JENNER. With whom, sir? + +Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. She related this to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Anybody else? What about Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin? Had you had +conversations with them as to the source of these funds? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would say that would be correct, too. + +Mr. JENNER. Did these conversations take place in the presence of Mrs. +Marina Oswald? Your conversations with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, sir. I am thinking perhaps, when I was +aware at first that the $25,000 was to be placed in the trust fund +at the First National Bank of Fort Worth, I learned this through a +conversation on the telephone. + +Mr. JENNER. With whom? + +Mr. OSWALD. With Mr. Jim Martin. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with Mr. Martin's voice? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you call him or did he call you? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. When did this take place? + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately a week prior to the actual deposit and +setting up of the trust fund at the First National Bank in Fort Worth. + +Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, I suggest we get a copy of the deposit +slip or some other validation of the actual amount. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir. We will undertake to do that. These +documents, as I have indicated, were produced for us during the recess. +We don't have the full information. + +Perhaps, Mr. McKenzie--you have been quite helpful. You might be +further helpful to us--you might have the deposit--evidence of the +deposit. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I wish I did have it. However, I know that +the First National Bank of Fort Worth would gladly duplicate that for +you. And I contemplate that I will be in the process of obtaining a +copy from either Mr. Thorne or Mr. Martin in the very near future, +because I have asked both of those gentlemen, on behalf of Marina +Oswald and her children, for a full and complete accounting as of +February 18, 1964, and I will likewise say that she has informed me up +until February 18, 1964, she has had no accounting from either of those +gentlemen. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there another exhibit? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +The next exhibit, Mr. Jenner, is Commission Exhibit No. 279, which is +a Xerox copy of a power of attorney granted to the firm of Thorne and +Leach, attorneys and counselors at law, bearing the date of December +5, 1963, in which it has three--I presume these are omissions from the +exhibit--commencing on line 4, following the words "trust funds", there +is an omission, and then the word "bequests", and then there is another +omission, and on line 5, at the beginning of that line, there is an +omission. + +Mr. DULLES. What is the nature of the omissions? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, I have been told that the word "gifts" was +omitted. The word "gift" was originally in it. But I have been told the +word "gift" was omitted, or struck out. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles, I had intended to question the witness about +that. + +Mr. McKENZIE. This contract provides that Marina N. Oswald, "bargain, +transfer, sell and assign an undivided 10 percent of all such sums +when collected or paid to my account," referring to the fund in the +preceding paragraph. The agreement is signed by Marina N. Oswald, +witnessed by James H. Martin, and accepted by John M. Thorne. + +I am familiar with Marina N. Oswald's signature, and this is a copy of +her signature, or is her signature. I am not familiar with Mr. Martin's +signature or Mr. Thorne's signature. + +Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to that document, Mr. Oswald, are +you familiar with any of the signatures it bears? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you identify each signature and indicate those with +which you are familiar? + +Mr. OSWALD. As they appear in order, the first signature is Mrs. Marina +N. Oswald. I am familiar with this signature. + +The second signature is Mr. James H. Martin. I am familiar with his +signature. + +Mr. JENNER. It is his signature? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say yes, it is. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. DULLES. Is that under "Accepted"--is that first word there "John"? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And the last signature as appears on this Exhibit +279 is the signature of John M. Thorne. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know the day upon which that document was executed? +It bears a date of December 5, which is a Thursday. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Pardon me--the 5th day of December is the date purported--that this +document was executed at. I am not familiar that it was executed on +that date. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the date when it was in fact executed? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not. I might further state I was not present +when this document was signed, and I was not aware of this document +until Thursday, February 13th. + +Mr. JENNER. 19---- + +Mr. OSWALD. 1964. + +Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of you, Mr. McKenzie, whether you have seen +the original of the document of which this purports to be a Xerox copy? + +Mr. McKENZIE. I have not, sir. But I have seen a duplicate copy, an +original copy. + +Mr. JENNER. A duplicate executed copy? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That was furnished to you by whom? + +Mr. McKENZIE. By Marina N. Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. And this is a photostatic copy of what, with respect to an +original, carbon copy or otherwise? + +Mr. McKENZIE. It is a photocopy of a carbon copy. + +Mr. JENNER. And have you personally seen the carbon copy of which this +is a photo? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. And is the document now identified as Commission Exhibit +No. 279 in the same condition now as it was when you first saw it? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your recollection, is it a duplicate of +the original? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +The next exhibit is Commission Exhibit No. 280 entitled "The Oswald +Trust," and bearing a heading, "The State of Texas, County of Dallas, +Know all men by these presents," and it is a trust agreement dated +December 30, 1963, by and between Marina Nikolaevna Oswald "a widow, +hereinafter called grantor, and John M. Thorne and James H. Martin of +Dallas County, Texas, co-trustees, hereinafter called the trustee" in +which it describes certain funds described on Schedule A attached to +this exhibit, which consists of some six pages, plus the Schedule A, +Schedule A describing the trust funds as cash, $25,000. And I might +add, in my opinion, Mr. Jenner, for whatever it may be worth, that this +trust grants to John Thorne and James Martin purportedly grants unto +those two men as co-trustees absolute discretion as to the distribution +of the trust funds. + +In fact, on page 2 it says, "as the trustee shall in either case in its +uncontrolled discretion deem advisable." + +Mr. DULLES. Who is the beneficiary of this trust? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Marina Oswald and her children, in the discretion of John +Thorne and James Martin. + +Representative FORD. Is that $25,000 the same $25,000 referred to in a +previous exhibit? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Ford, I presume so. But that is only a presumption on +my part. I do not know. + +I might further add, for the benefit of counsel and the Commission, +that Marina Oswald has informed me, and I think Robert Oswald can +testify as to this, which I leave to your discretion, that at no time +have these, up until February 14--have these---- + +Mr. JENNER. 1964? + +Mr. McKENZIE. 1964--have these exhibits, numbered consecutively +from 276 through 280, been read to her in Russian. And at the time +of execution, they were not interpreted, nor did they show of the +contents--what the contents were, except as explained to her in English. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, the document is identified as Commission +Exhibit No. 280, directing your attention to page 5, has blanks for +signatures, and names of grantor and co-trustees under those lines. + +Could I ask you whether you have seen the original of this document? + +Mr. McKENZIE. I have not, sir. I have seen a copy. + +Mr. JENNER. An executed copy? + +Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of my recollection, it was an executed copy, +yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And from what source did you obtain or was the document +exhibited to you? + +Mr. McKENZIE. The document was given to me by Marina Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. And you observed that it was executed? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. By the persons whose names appear on page 5 of the Exhibit +280? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +I have made these exhibits available to the Commission for whatever +purpose they may serve the Commission, and for no other purpose. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. I think we might want to reserve on that until the +whole Commission can get together. We want to examine everything within +the mandate we have been given by the President. We don't want to go +afield, quite naturally. And we cannot tell at this stage what bearing +these particular papers might have. So I think I would like to reserve +judgment on these. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Well, Mr. Dulles, I made that statement in view of that +fact. I felt that that would be true. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, for the purpose of our record, would you +be offended if we had you sworn, so you could then state that the +statements you have made to the Commission are true and correct? + +Mr. McKENZIE. I would not be offended in any way. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you, Mr. McKenzie, swear that what you have stated, is +the full truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. McKENZIE. I do, Mr. Dulles. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits +276 through 280, inclusive, the documents that have been so identified. + +Mr. DULLES. They may be accepted. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 276 +through 280, inclusive, for identification, and received in evidence.) + +Mr. DULLES. I wish to state, in accepting these documents, the +Commission does not want to pass on or assume any responsibility with +respect to the financial or other arrangements described in these +documents. + +Mr. JENNER. I sought to identify them, Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen, and +to tender them in evidence because of events of the past few days, and +to confirm Mr. McKenzie's authority to speak on behalf of Mr. Oswald. + +Mr. DULLES. Very well. + +Mr. JENNER. At the recess, Mr. Oswald, we were dealing with--excuse me. + +We were dealing with the period of time that you and your mother and +your two brothers lived in Benbrook, Tex. This brought us through the +summer of 1948, I believe. + +Am I correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Liebeler has determined that the divorce of Mr. Ekdahl +and your mother took place in 1948. We cannot give you the month and +the day in 1948, but it was during the year 1948. + +We had reached the point in which you related to us that, I believe, +following the divorce of Mr. Ekdahl and your mother, she purchased a +small home. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And refresh my recollection, please--was that in Benbrook, +Tex.? + +Mr. OSWALD. That was in Benbrook, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. Have we reached a point now at which your brother, Lee, had +entered elementary school? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we have. + +Mr. JENNER. And you boys have now terminated your attendance at the +military academy? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And would you please relate what elementary school you and +your brother, John, attended, and Lee, if he attended the same school? + +Mr. OSWALD. Prior to the school year of 1948-49, we moved to Ewing +Street, 7408 Ewing Street, within the limits of the city of Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the home that had been purchased in Benbrook, Tex., +sold? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you state that you would say. Is that your best +information? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +I am not aware of any transactions in regards to the selling of that +home or anything. Since we did move, and she did purchase this home on +7408 Ewing Street, in Fort Worth, I would assume that she did sell the +house at Benbrook, because she didn't rent it, and we no longer went +out there. I feel sure she did sell it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did I understand you to say that your mother purchased a +home at 7408 Ewing? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you, in very short compass, tell us the physical +characteristics of that home? + +Mr. OSWALD. It was a two bedroom, asbestos siding, with an attached +garage, red roof, small porch on the front, and an average sized lot. + +Mr. JENNER. These homes you have been describing all have, as I recall +it--have either attached garage or separate garages. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--with the exception of the home there in Benbrook +that my mother purchased after the divorce from Mr. Ekdahl--it did not +have a garage, and I did not recall a garage at the native stone house +in Benbrook. + +Mr. JENNER. The purpose of my inquiry was, did the family have an +automobile? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that true when you lived in Louisiana? + +Mr. OSWALD. To my best recollection on that--my father did have, at the +time of his death, either a 1937 or 1938 Chevrolet. I believe my mother +sold it after his death. I believe she did not own an automobile in New +Orleans, when we were at the Bethlehem Orphan Home. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you boys interested in automobiles, as most young +teenagers are? + +Mr. OSWALD. I think so, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Tinker around with them, drive them? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Both you and your brother John? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Later on, in later years, did your brother Lee--was he +likewise interested in automobiles, did he tinker with them? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir, did he tinker with them. Even +though I can recall a couple of occasions with automobiles that I +owned that he would assist me in any repairs I might be making on the +automobile at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I have in mind his interest now. Was he a good driver? + +Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, he did not drive. + +Mr. JENNER. He did not drive at all? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him drive an automobile? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. On two or three occasions in later +years, I offered to teach him to drive. + +Mr. JENNER. You recall this specifically now, do you? Would you relate +to the Commission this course of events in his life--a young man who +never did learn, at least to your knowledge, to drive an automobile? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +The first occasion that I recall that I offered to Lee to teach him how +to drive--at that time, I owned a '56 Chevrolet. I had married, and I +was residing at 7313 Davenport, Fort Worth, Tex., a home which I had +purchased. And Lee was home on leave. + +Mr. JENNER. Give us the time, please, as closely as you can. + +Mr. OSWALD. This would be some time in 1958. + +Mr. JENNER. He was then in the Marine Corps? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And he was home on leave? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. State the circumstances, will you please? + +Mr. OSWALD. With relation to my offer to teach him how to drive? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. How did that come about? + +Mr. OSWALD. Well, he was spending a day, or part of a day over at our +house. We were going to the grocery store or something--Lee and I. As +I backed out of the driveway, I recall saying something to him, or he +brought it up, or something--about wanting to learn how to drive. + +And I said, "Well, we can start right now." + +It was an automatic transmission. + +"It is the easiest thing in the world to do. There is nothing to worry +about. And I would be right here with you." + +Well, he didn't think that was the time to try to start. He did want to +learn how to drive, though. And he did not take the wheel. + +Mr. JENNER. He did not? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +At no time was I present when he took the wheel of a car and drove it. + +Mr. JENNER. And on any occasion in your lifetime, did you ever see +him, whether you were in the vehicle--whether or not you were in +the vehicle--behind the wheel and actually operating in motion an +automobile? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have never known him to operate an automobile, +to drive it. + +Mr. JENNER. What about Mrs. Marina Oswald in that respect? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; to my knowledge she does not drive and she does +not know how to drive, and I have never seen her operate an automobile. + +Mr. JENNER. I notice when you are smoking that you hold the cigarette +in your left hand. Are you left handed? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I am left handed when I write and eat. + +Mr. JENNER. And you are right handed otherwise? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Throwing a baseball? + +Mr. OSWALD. Throwing a baseball. + +At one time I could handle it with both hands--especially a football +better than a baseball. But I have returned to my right hand on that. +I was more accurate with my right hand than with my left hand, in +throwing things. I kick footballs right footed and so forth. + +Mr. JENNER. What about your father? Was he right handed or left handed? + +Mr. OSWALD. This I do not know, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Your mother? + +Mr. OSWALD. My mother is left handed. + +Mr. JENNER. And your brother Lee? + +Mr. OSWALD. He was right handed. + +Representative FORD. Was there ever a time that he appeared to be left +handed, as far as you recollect? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I have never known him to handle anything--throw +a baseball, football, et cetera, fire a rifle, or do anything, left +handed. + +Mr. JENNER. In order to be certain of the details in this respect, when +he wrote, did be write with his right or his left hand? + +Mr. OSWALD. Right handed. + +Mr. JENNER. Right handed? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you in fact have seen him write with his right hand? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have. + +Mr. JENNER. During your youth? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever--was there ever an occasion when you saw him +write or attempt to write with his left hand? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have never seen him at any time, on any +occasion, ever attempt to write or do anything left handed. + +Mr. JENNER. You really covered my next question, but I would like to +ask it anyhow. + +There are men in athletics who are either right handed or left handed, +but who throw or bat or do something from the other side. + +Did he ever throw left handed or in any athletic endeavor employ his +left hand predominantly as against his right hand? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge, he never did. + +Mr. JENNER. From your many years of experience with him, being +associated with him, as his brother, was he a predominantly +right-handed person? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he most certainly was. + +Representative FORD. And you personally saw him throw, kick, or do +anything athletic over the years, and saw him use his right hand +exclusively? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would say without qualification--I might be +repeating myself here--at no time did I ever know him to do anything +left handed, to the extent that it would be predominant. Of course his +hands worked together, and so forth. But I have never known him to do +anything left handed. + +Mr. JENNER. From your long acquaintance with him, and your intimate +knowledge of his physical characteristics in that respect, do you +have an opinion as to whether he was instinctively right-handed or +instinctively a left-handed person? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say he was instinctively a right-handed person. + +Mr. JENNER. In all the years you were with him, you had opportunity to +see him react instantaneously without having time to think about using +his right hand or left hand? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you observe him on many occasions? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes. I have never known him to use his left hand in +any manner when an occasion would require that he use either +hand--instinctively went to his right hand. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he a coordinated person in the use of his right hand? +Some are not coordinated athletically. + +Mr. OSWALD. My opinion of this, sir, would be that he was coordinated +to the extent that looking at myself and many, I would compare us as +two peas in a pod. Quite fast, well coordinated. + +Mr. JENNER. He was dextrous? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And well coordinated? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you had an opportunity over the years to see him engage +in athletics, did you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. During your youth, as a young man, in any event, did +you and your brother John and Lee have an interest in guns, rifles, +pistols, cap guns, firearms generally? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we certainly did. I would say this. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, this includes all three of you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I understand that. + +Of course John and I, when we attended military school, we had more of +an opportunity to become acquainted with firearms. We certainly played +with cap pistols, rubber guns, et cetera, when we were young. Lee did +the same thing. + +However, I would say this. Mother did not like firearms. + +Mr. DULLES. We will recess now until 2 o'clock this afternoon. + +(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +Afternoon Session + +TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED + + +The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m. + +Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order. + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Jenner, will you please continue? + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir. + +Mr. Reporter, would you read the last question and answer we have so we +can orient ourselves. + +To refresh your recollection, Mr. Oswald, I had commenced to examine +you with respect to the interests of yourself, your brother John, and +your brother Lee in firearms, even at the children's stage. And you had +indicated developments in that area as you became older. + +I think you reached the point where, as an example, you said of course +your brother John and yourself had attended military school. + +Mr. OSWALD. And, also, I believe, sir, the question referred to all +three of us. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. To what extent we were familiar with firearms. + +To elaborate, at military school John was by far the better shot of the +two of us. He was on the school rifle team. And, at this time, I was 10 +years old--when I first attended there. My hunting instinct came alive. + +Mr. JENNER. Hunting? + +Mr. OSWALD. Hunting instinct came alive, and at the first opportunity I +started hunting squirrels and so forth there in Mississippi. I did this +on practically every occasion I had. John was on the rifle team. And +up to that time, a number of years after that, we never had a firearm +in the house. My mother didn't like them. She was scared of them. And +after we moved to 7408 Ewing Street, none of us owned a rifle, even +a .22, or a shotgun, or any type of firearm. And when I wanted to go +hunting from there, I had various friends that had rifles that I would +borrow, and I would go to the west side of Fort Worth, and Benbrook, +and do my squirrel hunting. + +I don't recall at anytime during that period that Lee went with me. +I don't know that John did--because approximately this time he had +reached the age of 17, at which time he joined the U.S. Coast Guard. + +Mr. JENNER. This is when you moved over to Ewing Street in Fort Worth? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Up to that time, had you and Lee at any time gone hunting? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any time that we went hunting at +that time. + +Mr. JENNER. This was 1948-49. So he was 9 to 10 years old? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Had, to your knowledge, Lee gone hunting or used firearms +or played or been interested in firearms with you or with your brother? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. To my knowledge I don't remember any time he went +hunting with myself or my older brother John. As I stated, there was no +firearms in the house. + +He liked cap pistols, like any other kid. And to the extent that we +didn't even own a BB gun. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you ever had BB guns around your home? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you boys ever owned one? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. By this time, I assume you had shot one. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Owned by one of your pals or somebody around the +neighborhood? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And Lee had what you would describe as a normal interest in +firearms? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That every boy has? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. But not beyond that? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there any pistol or rifle ranges around that you boys +attended? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, your brother John at this point entered the Coast +Guard? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You were attending--you were then 15. You were now +attending high school, I assume. + +Mr. OSWALD. Junior high school. + +Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth? + +Mr. OSWALD. Fort Worth, W. C. Stripling Junior High School. + +Mr. DULLES. What was the name of that? + +Mr. OSWALD. W. C. Stripling Junior High School. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your brother John attend high school? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What high school did he attend? + +Mr. OSWALD. We went for awhile--to get this thing in sequence, before +he went into the Coast Guard he attended Arlington Heights High School +in Fort Worth, I believe, for one-half year, and then he transferred to +Paschal High School in Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you attended either of those high schools? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; Arlington Heights High School. + +Mr. JENNER. I think I might go back a little bit. I will return to the +firearms. + +But to maintain the sequence, when you and your brother John came to +Benbrook, Tex., after you completed your schooling at the military +school, I assume you attended school in Benbrook, Tex. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we did not, because we were just there during the +summer months. And we moved prior to the school year of 19---- + +Mr. JENNER. '48? + +Mr. OSWALD. '48--we moved to the address on Ewing Street. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. And each of you then enrolled in Arlington? + +Mr. OSWALD. I was in the ninth grade, which was junior high school in +Texas. I enrolled in W. C. Stripling. + +Mr. JENNER. First? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And John Edward enrolled in Arlington Heights +High School. + +Mr. JENNER. W. C. Stripling High School was a junior high school? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And Arlington Heights High School was senior high school? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; the last 3 years. + +Mr. JENNER. And, at this time, your brother Lee was enrolled in---- + +Mr. OSWALD. West Ridglea Elementary School. + +Mr. JENNER. So at this point each of you was attending a different +school? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And Lee was 9 years old. + +You continued at Arlington Heights Junior High School for how long? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--W. C. Stripling Junior High School. For 1 year, +the ninth grade. + +If I may, sir, perhaps correct something--I don't know for sure which +way it was. When I said Lee attended West Ridglea Elementary School, I +think perhaps the first year he attended Arlington Heights Elementary +School, because I don't believe the West Ridglea Elementary School was +completed at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. We might take you in sequence so that at least I don't get +confused. + +You spent a year at W.C. Stripling High School? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. So we now have--we are now into '49-'50, is that correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And after a year at W.C. Stripling High School, you +enrolled where? + +Mr. OSWALD. At Arlington Heights High School. + +Mr. JENNER. And that would be in the fall of 1949? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you attended Arlington Heights High School how long? + +Mr. OSWALD. I attended my sophomore year. In my sophomore year I +started---- + +Mr. JENNER. Would that be 1951, the end of your sophomore year? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; 1950 would be the end of the school year. That +summer there I started a job with an A&P Supermarket there in Fort +Worth. + +I might say along this period mother seemed to be having difficulty +keeping a job or making enough money and so forth to raise us. I stayed +out of school that next year and worked for A&P. + +Mr. JENNER. Out of school 1950-51? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your brother remain in school--John? + +Mr. OSWALD. John at this time was in the Coast Guard. + +Mr. JENNER. Already in the Coast Guard? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. And you worked at the A&P during this period? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you contribute your earnings to your mother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. They were probably not a great amount at this age. Do you +recall what they were, per week? + +Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps my starting salary was somewhere around $48 a week, +or something like that. I believe by the end of the year I had become a +checker, and perhaps it was $65 or $70 a week. + +Mr. JENNER. What proportion of that did you contribute to the +sustaining of the family? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say practically all of it, but what I needed for +expenses, a little spending money. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether your brother John made an allotment of +any kind to your mother or sent her any money? + +Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any illness or disability of any kind that +contributed to your mother's difficulty in obtaining positions during +this period? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not disabled. I don't recall any +particular length of illness that she had at this time that would not +allow her to work. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the reason, if you recall, she was having +difficulty in obtaining work, or was there any particular reason? + +Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir. No particular reason I can recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Your brother Lee was living at home during this time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he working after school, or making any effort to earn +some money? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. He might have on occasion mowed +somebody's lawn or something like that, where he would have a little +spending money, or something. But nothing frequently, consistently. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Proceeding with you, at the end of the school year '50-'51--I assume +you continued working there the summer of '51? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you reenter school that fall? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Where? + +Mr. OSWALD. Arlington Heights High School. + +Representative FORD. May I ask a question? + +During this 1-year period that you worked for the A&P, Mr. Oswald, were +you the principal source of income for your mother, Lee, and yourself? + +Mr. OSWALD. Mother was working. Whether or not I was making more than +she was at that time, I do not know. + +Representative FORD. She was working spasmodically or regularly during +this period? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe almost regularly, very little off. I cannot +recall right now what she was doing. I think perhaps during this period +she was selling insurance. + +Representative FORD. While she was in this occupation, who took care of +Lee? + +Mr. OSWALD. Well, no one did. Lee was, of course, at school. When he +returned home from school in the afternoon, he managed for himself, +until I or my mother returned home from work. + +Representative FORD. He was 9 or 10? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Eleven years old. + +Representative FORD. Thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. I think Representative Ford's question may have been +induced by the fact you said that at about this time of which we are +speaking your mother was having trouble retaining her position or +obtaining positions. I assumed from that, perhaps incorrectly, that +there were gaps, there were times when she was not employed, and, +therefore, did need you to remain out of school to help. Is that a fair +statement? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say that is a fair statement and generally so. A +little more comes to mind there. + +I believe, perhaps, that she might have been selling insurance. I +think she was acting at that time as what you would call a hostess +or a welcoming party for the city of Fort Worth. In other words, she +went out and met new people coming into Fort Worth--something along +that line. And apparently it wasn't very much money, very little. And +I think during this period also she was trying to locate other types +of work that would perhaps earn her more. I believe that would be more +accurate to what I really had in mind, there. + +Mr. JENNER. But during all of the period, from the divorce of your +mother and Mr. Ekdahl, proceeding from that time forward, she again +returned to what she had been doing prior to the marriage--that is, +working to sustain the family? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And if I may use the expression you did, Lee was left +to shift for himself during the daytime, get to school, get back to +school, and be around until either you boys returned to the home or +your mother returned to the home? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Because he didn't have anybody particularly assigned or who +undertook to care for him? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +I might say you mentioned "you boys." Of course at this time John was +in the Coast Guard, so it was either myself or my mother. + +Mr. JENNER. And particularly during the year you were employed at the +A&P, and your mother was also employed, then certainly during that +period there was no one even available to take care of him, is that +correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. What were your hours? + +Mr. OSWALD. My hours varied somewhat. We had different types of shifts +for different days. Normally perhaps from 7 to 4 or 5 o'clock, and on +the weekends--stock day was Wednesday, when all shipments came in, to +restock the store. That was Wednesday and Saturday. Usually they were +long days. I worked from 7 o'clock to 8 o'clock or 9 o'clock at night. +And on Saturdays practically always after the store was closed, we did +the cleanup, and rewaxing the floors and sometimes it was anywhere +from 10 to 10:30 at night, and perhaps even 11 o'clock before I was +home. + +Mr. DULLES. Did Lee's school at that time keep him until about 4 +o'clock, do you know? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that would be--he was, of course, at that +time, attending West Ridglea Elementary School. I believe it would be +about 3 o'clock, because I believe high school at that time--we were +getting out at 3:40. And I believe the elementary school was either 40 +minutes or an hour earlier. + +Mr. JENNER. You attended Arlington Heights High School for the school +year '51-'52? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And what about the year '52-'53? + +Mr. OSWALD. July 1952 I joined the Marine Corps. + +Mr. JENNER. And in July 1952, when you joined the Marine Corps, what do +you recall was your status as far as your schooling was concerned? + +Mr. OSWALD. I completed my junior year in high school. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you enlist for 3 years? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And your brother was still in the Coast Guard? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was still in the Coast Guard at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. And, at that time, I take it your brother Lee was attending +Arlington Heights High School? That would be 1952? + +Mr. OSWALD. Just a minute, please. + +In 1952 Lee was 13 years old. He would be attending W. C. Stripling +Junior High School then. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. For the school year 1951-52? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Junior high school there was from the seventh to +the ninth grades. And as soon as he was through with his sixth year, he +started attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School. + +Mr. JENNER. As soon as he finished the sixth year at Ridglea Elementary +School, he entered W. C. Stripling High School, as a seventh grader? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--junior high school. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the condition that you described as to Lee shifting +for himself during the daytime, when your mother was away working +and you were away working, and your brother John was in the Coast +Guard, continued, I take it, when he began attendance and while he was +attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there a discussion, a family discussion when you +enlisted in the Marines, or prior to your enlisting in the Marines, as +to your doing so, and quitting high school? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not. + +Mr. JENNER. That was of your own volition? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you talk to your mother in advance about it? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Not at all? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Had anything preceded in the way of family discussion of +your brother John's entry into the Coast Guard? + +Mr. OSWALD. I feel like it was, sir. He had previously---- + +Mr. JENNER. This is your best recollection? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +He had previously, before going into the Coast Guard, joined the Marine +Corps Reserve, the base of which was, at that time, at Grand Prairie, +Tex. I believe it was 105 Howitzer, something like that. And he was +perhaps in that 4 or 5 months before he joined the Coast Guard. When it +came up about the Coast Guard, I believe we all talked about it, or at +least he talked to Lee about it in front of me. + +Mr. JENNER. You used an expression, "I believe we talked about it." Is +it your recollection that you did? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Nothing that I remember particular about that. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the character of the discussion, Mr. Oswald? You +had a family in which your mother was having some difficulty supporting +you boys? You had a brother who needed to be supported. Was there any +discussion--or was there a discussion of what would happen in the event +that first John and then you joined the service? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe reflecting on what mother said to me when I made +my decision to join the Marine Corps was that perhaps it was the best +thing, where I would not be a burden to her to that extent, and also +perhaps be able to help her when she needed help. And I think this +would be in line with what was said when John left for the Coast Guard, +that this would be, of course, one less for her to take care of at the +house, to feed and to clothe, and so forth. And it would relieve her of +her responsibility along that line--it would help her, because of the +limited amount of funds that she had coming in. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make an allotment of any portion of your +service pay to your mother? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. To your knowledge, did John? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. You were single at this time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Your brother John was? + +Mr. OSWALD. 1952? + +Mr. JENNER. When he entered the Coast Guard. + +Mr. OSWALD. When he entered the Coast Guard he was single. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he marry while he was in the service? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, was he in the Coast Guard when he married? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it he did leave the Coast Guard. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he has. + +Mr. JENNER. And did he enter into military service when he left the +Coast Guard? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. He transferred from the Coast Guard into +the U.S. Air Force. + +Mr. JENNER. And when was that? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe this to be around 1955. I believe it would be +accurate to say in 1954. I do recall a letter from John to the extent +that he lost a stripe when he transferred from one service to the +other, and I believe this letter came to me when I was in Korea, which +was 1954 and early '55. I believe it was 1954. + +Mr. JENNER. When you were in Korea, did you say? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you say, if you did, that your brother John +married? Do you recall the year? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe this would be late 1950 or '51. + +Mr. JENNER. That was during the period you were working at the A&P? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And where was he stationed at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. New York City. + +Mr. JENNER. Staten Island, I guess. + +I would like to ask some questions about that later on, but I prefer +now to return to this. + +You enlisted in the Marines, then, in the summer of 1952. + +Mr. OSWALD. July 11, 1952. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you give us in very short compass your military +career? + +Mr. OSWALD. I went to boot camp at San Diego, Calif., and from San +Diego I went to combat training at Camp Pendleton, Calif. When I left +Camp Pendleton, I was transferred from the infantry into the Marine Air +Wing. + +I went to Jacksonville, Fla. to a preparatory school down there in +Marine aviation--more or less to determine your ability and what your +strong points were, and what field you would be best qualified in the +aviation division. + +From Jacksonville, Fla., I went into Millington, Tenn., right outside +of Memphis, Tenn., a Navy school, where for approximately 6 months I +attended metalsmith school. + +From Memphis, Tenn., or Millington, Tenn., I went to Miami, Fla. for +approximately 9 months. I was not in school any longer. I was on the +job. And from Miami, I was sent overseas to Korea. + +Mr. JENNER. And how long were you overseas? + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 18 months, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. From when to when? + +Mr. OSWALD. I reported to Santa Ana, Calif. in January or February of +1954. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were discharged from the Marines---- + +Mr. OSWALD. July of 1955. + +Mr. JENNER. So you had a full 3 years in the Marines. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. During that 3-year period, what contact did you have with +the members of your family, and with particular reference, if you can +give that first, with your brother Lee--his writing you, you writing +him? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were corresponding infrequently, I would +say--not very many letters between I and Lee direct when I was in the +service, especially the first part of my tour in the service. + +In 1952, after traveling from Camp Pendleton, Calif., to Jacksonville, +Fla., I did have a 10-day leave. They were in New York City at that +time. + +Mr. JENNER. This was then some time in 1953, I take it? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--1952. + +Mr. JENNER. 1952? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This was---- + +Mr. JENNER. You mean your mother and Lee--that is the period of time +they were in New York City? + +Mr. OSWALD. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Living there. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see them? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not at that time. I spent my leave in Fort Worth, +because I did not feel I had enough time to travel to New York and down +to Jacksonville, Fla. After completing metalsmith school at Millington, +Tenn., I took a 10-day leave. + +Mr. JENNER. Fix the time. + +Mr. OSWALD. This was July or August of 1953. I had my orders to go +to Miami, Fla. I took a 10-day leave and left Millington, Tenn., by +car and came to New York City and spent 10 days in New York with Lee, +mother, John, and his family. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did you stay? + +Mr. OSWALD. At mother's apartment, with Lee, in the Bronx some place--I +do not recall the address. + +Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, did you learn at that time regarding +Lee's attendance or nonattendance in school? + +Mr. OSWALD. Nothing on that, sir. This was in the summer time. Lee, of +course, was home and not supposed to be in school. And I do not think +anything was brought up that I recall about whether or not Lee had been +attending school regularly or not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Can we go off the record? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. + +Mr. JENNER. Referring to the 10-day leave in New York City, did you +spend time with your brother Lee? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Your mother was working during that period of time, was she +not? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. In spending time with him, did you take him around, or +accompany him, visiting various places in New York City? + +Mr. OSWALD. He took me around, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion during that period to take any +photographs, snapshots, of Lee? + +Mr. OSWALD. I certainly can identify the one appearing in Life--yes, +sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Just hold your answers right in this area exactly to my +questions. + +Mr. OSWALD. I'm sorry. + +Mr. JENNER. Were these taken with your camera, or was it a camera that +your mother or brother owned or had? + +Mr. OSWALD. This was my camera. + +Mr. DULLES. What do these questions refer to? Do they refer to the +pictures in Life? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I really did not want to refer to that at the moment. + +Do you remember any of the places at which you took snapshots of Lee +during this 10-day leave? + +Mr. OSWALD. The Bronx Zoo I believe was about the only time I can +recall taking any pictures of him. + +Mr. JENNER. I am at liberty to advise you, Mr. Oswald, that when your +mother testified before the Commission she did produce a number of +photographs, snapshots, and otherwise, among which was a snapshot of +your brother, Lee, taken at the New York Zoo--that she testified was +taken at the New York Zoo. + +Is that the incident in which you took the photograph of your brother +Lee, as far as you know? + +Mr. OSWALD. You say the New York Zoo, sir. As far as I know there is +just one zoo up there referred to as the Bronx Zoo. I do recall, and I +still have the picture that I took of Lee at the Bronx Zoo. I certainly +feel that perhaps either I sent copies of it to mother, or to Lee after +I had the film developed. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, may I go off the record a moment? + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. + +Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, I have before me the +February 21, 1964, issue of Life magazine, on pp. 68-A, 68-B, and 70 of +which there appear a number of photographs. I think it would be well +if we gave this spread page an exhibit number. And since it really +consists of two separate pages--the next exhibit numbers are what? + +Mr. LIEBELER. 281 and 282. + +Mr. JENNER. We will mark 68-B as 281 and page 69 as 282. + +(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 281 and +282, respectively, for identification.) + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner--the only thing you are offering to the +Commission at this time as I understand it are the pictures that appear +on those two pages and not the text. + +Mr. JENNER. That's correct, sir. + +Directing your attention to page 69, identified as Commission Exhibit +282, there is a picture of a young boy and the background looks like it +might be taken in a zoo. You mentioned that you had taken a snapshot of +your brother on this 10-day leave. + +Could you examine that and see if you can identify that as being the +snapshot you took? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do so identify that picture. That was taken at +the Bronx Zoo--a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald, taken during my 10-day +leave in New York City in 1953, approximately July or August of 1953. + +Mr. JENNER. Was school in session at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, school was not in session at that time. This was +during the summer months. + +Mr. JENNER. So there was no obligation on the part of your brother to +have been in school at this particular time? + +Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, appearing immediately above that snapshot is a +snapshot or a photograph, a picture of two boys. Do you recognize +either or both of those children? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. I recognize the young boy standing, and I +recognize him to be Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. And who is the boy appearing lower in that photograph? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not recognize him, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. This is in the upper right hand corner of Commission +Exhibit 282. Appearing immediately to the left--but before I proceed to +that, are you able to identify that sufficiently to indicate to us the +age of your brother at the time that picture was taken? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say he was approximately 11 or 12 years old at that +time. + +Mr. JENNER. And at this time he was residing where? + +Mr. OSWALD. If he was 11 years old at the time the photograph was +taken, he was residing in Fort Worth, Tex. If he was 12 years old, he +would be residing in New York City. + +Mr. JENNER. To the left appears another photograph of a young man in a +striped shirt, a striped T-shirt. Do you observe that? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. It is apparently a blowup from a group picture. Who is that? + +Mr. OSWALD. I recognize him to be my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize the clothing, have you seen him in +that clothing before? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall. The tennis shoes look familiar. + +Mr. JENNER. And are you able to make out the age of your brother at the +time this picture was taken? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately 10 or 11 years old. + +Mr. JENNER. So if it were at age 10, he would have been residing where? + +Mr. OSWALD. In Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have already given the age. + +To the left of that picture is another photograph or apparently a +snapshot. I notice that there are part of some persons behind the +central figure. Do you recognize the figure in that photograph? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Who is it? + +Mr. OSWALD. I recognize it to be Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. At what age? + +Mr. OSWALD. Seven or eight years old. + +Mr. JENNER. And assuming age 7, where was he residing at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. This would be--the year when he was 7 would be 1946 or +1947. He would be residing in Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. And if he were 8, he still would be residing in Fort Worth, +Tex. + +Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. To the left of that picture is a picture of--I don't know +whether that is one snapshot or two. + +Mr. OSWALD. It is one, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Showing three persons, three children. Are you able to +identify all three? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify and give the ages? + +Mr. OSWALD. Left to right, I identify myself at the age of 10. + +Mr. JENNER. With the sailor hat on? + +Mr. OSWALD. With the sailor hat on, right. In the center I identify it +to be Lee Harvey Oswald at the age of 5. On the far right I identify +John Edward Pic at the age of 12. + +Mr. JENNER. And you boys were residing where at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas, Tex., on Victor Street. That was taken right +outside, at the side of the house. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the circumstances under which the picture was +taken? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; other than we wanted to take some pictures. + +Mr. JENNER. Your present recollection is who took the picture? + +Mr. OSWALD. My mother. + +Mr. JENNER. In the background is what? + +Mr. OSWALD. The house that we lived in on Victor Street. + +Mr. JENNER. There is a spread picture at the bottom of the double page. +Are you familiar with the area which is shown in that picture? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. + +Mr. JENNER. What is that area? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is on the playground of Ridglea West Elementary School. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize any of the persons shown in that +reproduction? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you identify those, if any, you so recognize? + +Mr. OSWALD. The only person I recognize in this photograph is this +young man right here--I do not recall his name--I believe his name was +Donald. He lived right around the corner from us. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, I hand you a brush pen. Would you indicate by +an arrow the person to whom you made reference? Thank you. + +Would you do the same on the picture identified in the extreme upper +right hand corner on Exhibit 282. + +Now, I notice on the spread picture at the bottom of the page, which +was identified as a schoolmate, that there is to the left of that +picture a picture with an imprinted arrow. Do you recognize the person +to whom the arrow is pointing? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you able to say whether that is or is not your brother +Lee? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; from this picture, I cannot determine if it is Lee +or not. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you able to see it clearly enough to say that it is not? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not able to see it clearly enough to make +a positive statement one way or the other. It appears to be a little +fuzzy. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether it is or not? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. You just do not recognize it? + +Mr. OSWALD. I just do not recognize it. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Now on page 68-A, which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 283--do +you recognize that photograph depicted on that page? + +(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 283 for +identification.) + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Who is it? + +Mr. OSWALD. I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you seen the original of that reproduction? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly have. I might add that I wore +that same baby suit. + +Mr. JENNER. That is shown in that picture? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And John Edward did, too. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, turning to pages 70 and 71, which we will have marked +as Commission Exhibit 284, so far as page 70 is concerned, and page 71 +marked as 285. + +(The material referred to was marked respectively Commission Exhibits +Nos. 284 and 285 for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Spread across page 70 and partially on page 71 is a +photograph, or a reproduction of a photograph. + +Do you recognize any of the persons depicted on that spread page? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize more than one person? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. And which one do you recognize? + +Mr. OSWALD. In the foreground on the left-hand side, on page 70, I +recognize that to be Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the boy with the V-shaped design on his sweater or +T-shirt, with his hand on his chest? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you identify that by an arrow. + +Are you able to, in looking at that--to tell at what age that was +taken, and where? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately 14 years old. I cannot recognize +the classroom there. At 14 Lee would have been---- + +Mr. JENNER. He was in New York City, was he not? + +Mr. OSWALD. 1953, yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. On page 72, which we will mark as Commission Exhibit 286, +there is a photograph or reproduction of a photograph in the lower +right-hand corner. + +(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 286 for +identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize anyone in that reproduction? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize both people? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the person you recognize? + +Mr. OSWALD. I recognize the person on the left-hand side of this +photograph. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the man? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I recognize him to be Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. At about what age? + +Mr. OSWALD. Since I am aware of where this picture was taken, at the +age of 17. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate---- + +Mr. OSWALD. I am aware where this picture was taken. This is in +Arlington Heights High School. I believe this exhibit right behind him +in the background was on the third floor of Arlington Heights High +School. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was taken at the high school? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And he was of what age at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. 17. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, it is pretty clear, since there is a gentleman and +a lady in this picture, the only two persons indicated, and you have +identified your brother--would you still, however, put a arrow pointing +to your brother. Thank you. + +Turning to page 74-A, which is Commission Exhibit 287, there are two +pictures reproduced in the lower right-hand corner. + +(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 287 for +identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize those? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. And would you state what they are? + +Mr. OSWALD. Both pictures are pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. And he appears to be in military garb. Were those taken +when he was in the Marines? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, did you see him in his service uniform at any +time? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do recognize these pictures as depicting your +brother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. On pages 74 and 75 of Life Magazine, which will be +Commission Exhibits 288 and 289, there is a spread picture. + +(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 288 and +289, respectively, for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize any of the persons depicted in that spread +picture? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do, but only one. + +Mr. JENNER. Identify the one you recognize, and locate it in the +picture. + +Mr. OSWALD. I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald being in the foreground of +the picture, approximately in the center of the picture. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you identify him with this brush pencil? + +Then on Exhibit 288, which is page 74-B of this issue of Life Magazine, +there appears at the bottom a reproduction of identity cards. I direct +your attention to the left-hand identity card upon which appears a +photograph, a reproduction of a photograph. Do you recognize that? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would have to say that he appears heavier, his face is +fuller, he has more hair on his head, but the eyes and the nose and the +mouth are Lee Harvey Oswald's. I had not studied that picture before. +But he does seem to be quite fullfaced, if that is the terminology to +use there, and much more hair on his head--there again in relation to +the hair I am assuming here this photograph of Lee was taken after he +returned from Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. I would rather not have you assume anything at the moment. + +Do you identify that as a reproduction of a picture of your brother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with--were you at the time acquainted +with the circumstances under which there was issued or purported to be +issued a Selective Service System classification card in the name of +Alek James Hidell? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you ever have a discussion with your brother with +respect to his use, if he did, of the name Alek James Hidell, A. J. +Hidell, or any combination of that, in which the surname Hidell was +employed? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. And if I may say, at no time have I +ever known him to use any other name than Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, you are unacquainted with any +circumstances under which he employed, if he did employ at any time, +the surname Hidell? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Or any other alias? + +Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever know him to employ an alias? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, I had not. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever employed one? + +Mr. OSWALD. Off the record, please. + +Mr. JENNER. I will withdraw that question. + +Mr. OSWALD. This is what it amounts to. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Let me state this for the purposes of the record. In +order to avoid publicity or avoid newsmen, we did travel to Friendship +Airport from Dallas, Texas, yesterday evening, February 19th, and +Robert Oswald traveled under the name of F. M. Johnson. + +Mr. DULLES. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. + +Mr. JENNER. On the following page, which is page 76, Commission Exhibit +290, is a photograph, reproduction of a photograph in the lower +right-hand corner. + +(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 290 for +identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. You recognize the person depicted in that photograph? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them? + +Mr. OSWALD. I recognize the two people in the photograph--the woman +being Mrs. Marina Oswald, and the man being Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen that picture before? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I have. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see it prior to November 22, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I did, and the reason why I say I +believe--I believe I either have a copy of this photograph myself, or +one very, very similar to it. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you come into the possession of the photograph? + +Mr. OSWALD. Lee had sent it to me from Russia, showed me pictures of +him and his wife on their wedding day in April, 1961. I received the +photographs, though, in approximately May, 1961. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you still have those photographs in your possession? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. If I may say, I did turn over I believe +four photographs that Lee had sent me from Russia, and I believe in all +four photographs Lee and Marina were in them. And I turned these over +to Mr. Jim H. Martin. + +Mr. JENNER. But they are your personal property. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are. + +Mr. JENNER. I want to get into that period of time when you were in +correspondence with your brother at a later moment. + +Turning now to page 78, which is Commission Exhibit 291, in the lower +left-hand corner of that is a reproduction, or what purports to be a +reproduction of a photograph. + +(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 291 for +identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize either of the two persons depicted in that +photograph? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I recognize the man on the right with the piece +of paper in his hand, and a notebook I believe under his left arm, to +be Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the other man who is partially shown in +that photograph? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see that photograph at any time prior to November +22, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. + +Mr. JENNER. And on page 80, which is Commission Exhibit No. 292, there +are two photographs, one showing a lady and a child, in the upper +right-hand corner. + +(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 292 for +identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to that picture first, do you +recognize either of the persons shown in that photograph? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. I recognize both persons. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them, please? + +Mr. OSWALD. The child is June Lee Oswald, and the woman is Mrs. Marina +Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. And June Oswald is your brother's child? + +Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you seen that photograph at any time prior to November +22, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. + +Mr. JENNER. In the lower right-hand corner is a photograph of a man +holding a firearm or rifle with a pistol on his right hip and some +papers of some kind in--he is holding the rifle in his left hand, the +papers in his right hand. Do you recognize the person depicted in that +photograph? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. I recognize him to be my brother, Lee +Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you seen that photograph at any time prior to November +22, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you seen the photograph of which that is a +reproduction since November 22, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. Under what circumstances? + +Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags at Arlington. Tex., +approximately November 27, 1963, in the presence of U.S. Secret Service +and Marina Oswald and myself. + +Mr. DULLES. Your mother was not there then? + +Mr. OSWALD. She was there at the time, but I do not believe she was in +the room when this photograph was shown. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits +281 through 292 the pages of the issue of Life Magazine I have +identified that bear those exhibit numbers. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. I understand counsel for Mr. Oswald has pointed out +that I believe you are offering only the photographs and not the text? + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir. May I amend my offer. I offer in evidence +the reproduction of photographs which the witness has identified that +appear on Commission Exhibits 281 through 292. + +Mr. DULLES. They may be accepted. + +(The portion of the documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits +Nos. 281 through 292 for identification were received in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. I do not offer any of the text or any other portions of +those pages. + +Mr. DULLES. That is so noted. + +Mr. JENNER. Are there any other events or happenings or circumstances +during this 10-day period in New York City that come to your mind? +You have told of the incident of taking the photograph which was +identified. You told of visiting various places in New York City and +being with your brother Lee. Was it a good deal during this 10-day +period? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; practically every day, and practically every +night, with two exceptions at night, where my brother John fixed me up +with a blind date for one night only--no, I take that back. It would be +just one night Lee was not with me, and that would be on the night I +had a blind date with a girl from New York City, with my brother John +and his wife. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you and your brother Lee visit your brother John's home +during this 10-day stay? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, we did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with your brother Lee--put it +this way--did you become aware during this 10-day period as to whether +your mother and brother had stayed with your brother John at any time +during their New York visit? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. It was my understanding that when they first +arrived in New York for a brief period they stayed together. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion with you as to why they left the +home of your brother John? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to any extent--no, sir, no discussion. + +Mr. JENNER. No discussion of any difficulties or any incidents that had +arisen while they were living with your brother John's family? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That induced or had a bearing upon leaving and taking an +apartment in the Bronx? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not know of any discussion or any difficulty that was +mentioned to me, but I understand there was some difficulty. + +Mr. JENNER. Please, Mr. Oswald--the subject was not discussed with you +during the 10-day period you were on leave? + +Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it discussed with you at any time prior to November 22, +1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion on the subject of your brother's +progress in schooling in New York City? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of his attendance at school, whether the +attendance was good or bad--was school discussed at all, as you recall? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. And as a layman, and acquainted with your brother, what +was your impression? Give us your present impression of your brother's +state of mind during that 10-day period. Was he normal and happy and +friendly? + +Mr. OSWALD. He was very normal. He did not appear to be unhappy. He was +quite happy to see me. We spent a good deal of time together during +that 10-day visit. At no time did he act abnormally. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he complain to you about school? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. In general did he complain about anything--any special +gripes? + +Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that as being a happy 10-day visit on your +10-day leave in New York City? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Both you and your brother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you spend time with your mother as well as your brother +Lee during the 10-day period? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be when--the evenings and on Sunday? + +Mr. OSWALD. Generally in the evenings. That is the way I recall it. + +Mr. JENNER. You and your brother Lee and your mother--did you do any +visiting during the evening, movies, any entertainment, go out? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; Lee and I did. Mother did not join us. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of your mother's state of mind and +well-being and her general feeling while you were there during that +10-day period? + +Mr. OSWALD. May I have that again, please? + +(The reporter read the pending question.) + +Mr. OSWALD. My impression of my mother at that time was that she was +still having a little difficulty making enough money to have the things +that she wanted to have, I should say. But generally her health was +good, and nothing that I recall comes to mind that would indicate that +there was any difficulty between her and Lee. They seemed to be getting +along quite well. + +Mr. JENNER. Your impression during the 10-day period, I take it then, +was that the relationship between your mother and Lee was friendly, was +it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there any arguments during the time you were there +between them? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there were. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he at any time during that period--was he discourteous +to his mother? + +Mr. OSWALD. If I may in my own words here, sir---- + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. OSWALD. The word "discourteous"--my mother did not wish us to go +to certain places--I say certain places--I do not recall the places. +She just did not want us going, inasmuch as we were going during the +day. I wanted to see as much of New York as I could while I was there. +And I recall that Lee and mother and I had something of an argument in +reference to staying away from the house during the day so long, and so +forth. And it was not her wish that we do that. And if this was being +discourteous--that is why I qualify that. + +Mr. JENNER. Nothing extraordinary. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, your leave terminated. You went back to Florida, and +you eventually wound up in Korea. + +Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question before we leave the New York period? + +While you were there, was there any discussion about these absences +from school which I think took place just the months before you were +there--although I am not absolutely clear on that. It seems to me as +I understand it your mother and Lee arrived in the Bronx area around +September of '52, I think it was, and this was in the summer of '53 +that you visited them there, is that correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. So that according to what I recall--and this may not be +accurate--what is referred to as the truancy, the 46 days absence from +school, had occurred some time prior to your visit. Maybe you do not +recall that. That did not come up at all? + +Mr. OSWALD. No; it did not come up at all. + +Mr. DULLES. Did anything come up about a psychiatric examination? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not. + +Representative FORD. There was no mention of the farm? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. So the psychiatric examination was not mentioned in your +presence? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. It had taken place I think in May of 1953. + +Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir--mother did mention that Lee had appeared +before a judge, and she said it was a Negro judge. I asked why, and she +said because he had been absent from school too long, no specific dates +or length of time was mentioned, and that they were stricter in New +York about that than in Texas. + +Representative FORD. Did this bother her, disturb her? Did she indicate +the reaction to that? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--at that time I do not recall any reaction that she +had, or any comment she made about it. She just very briefly stated +that he had appeared before this Negro judge in New York City, and just +what I previously related about it. That was the only thing she said +about it. + +Representative FORD. She did not mention a man named Carro? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; nobody's name was mentioned, not even the judge's +name. + +Mr. JENNER. To the best of your present recollection, that is about +all that occurred in the way of conversation respecting some possible +truancy? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That is all you now can recall. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. You were mustered out of the Marines in July of 1955. + +Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you return--well, when you were mustered out, where did +you go? + +Mr. OSWALD. Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. And where were your mother and brother living at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. In New Orleans, La. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you still single? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you explain why you went to Fort Worth, Tex., rather +than to New Orleans? + +Mr. OSWALD. I considered Fort Worth, Tex., my home. I wanted to go +there. I had quite a few friends. I wanted to find a job in Fort Worth, +Tex. And that is where I wanted to live. + +Mr. JENNER. And you did undertake residence there? + +Mr. OSWALD. I did, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you continued to be a resident of Fort Worth, Tex., +ever since? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. Indicate in short compass where you have resided since you +got out of the service? + +Mr. OSWALD. From 1955 I resided in Fort Worth, Tex., until March of +1963. From March of 1963 until September 1963, I resided in Malvern, +Ark. And from September until present date I have resided in Denton, +Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you visit your mother and your brother in New Orleans +when you returned from the service in July of 1955? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. I did not--yes, sir, it was in July 1955 +when I made my first trip from Fort Worth, Tex., to New Orleans, La. I +had purchased a car the second day I was home from the service, a 1951 +Chevrolet, and I drove it on the third day or the second night to New +Orleans, La. + +Mr. JENNER. Were your quarters in a hotel, or did you join your brother +and mother? + +Mr. OSWALD. I joined my mother and brother. + +Mr. JENNER. How long did you stay in New Orleans on that trip? + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 1 week. + +Mr. JENNER. And you lived with your mother and brother? + +Mr. OSWALD. That's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. That was in July of 1955? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct. + +Mr. JENNER. He was not in school at that time. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, how did you find your brother, as to the state of +health and state of mind? + +Mr. OSWALD. He seemed to be the same to me. He had joined at that +time--no, sir--he had not at that time been in the Civil Air Patrol. +At that time Lee was working I believe for an export firm there in New +Orleans. I do not know the name of it. I do not believe I ever heard +the name of it. I might have. Mother was also working at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you seen your brother in the interim--that is the +interim between the 10-day leave in New York City and your return from +Korea in July of 1955? + +Mr. OSWALD. There was one leave, or perhaps it was this time in 1955 +that Lee was in the Civil Air Patrol there in New Orleans, because I +remember his uniform that he had. And we went out to lunch on a Sunday +afternoon. And he had his uniform on--mother, he, and I. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, he asked you this--if between the time you went +to New York City and left there, and the time you went to Korea and +came back, and you were mustered out of the Marine Corps, did you see +your brother at any time during that period of time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I recall now. Leaving Miami, Fla., in +1954--January or February--I took another 10-day leave, I believe it +was, and I traveled to New Orleans first, where mother and Lee was, and +at this time he was in the Civil Air Patrol. And I spent 3 or 4 days +there in New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. You stayed with your mother and brother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes; I did. + +Mr. DULLES. When you come to a good place, Mr. Jenner, we will stop for +5 minutes. + +Mr. JENNER. The Commission's convenience is my convenience. + +Representative BOGGS. May I ask one or two questions. + +Your brother John--is he alive? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. Where is he? + +Mr. OSWALD. San Antonio, Tex., in the U.S. Air Force. + +Mr. DULLES. He is a half brother. + +Representative BOGGS. He is your older brother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. How old is he? + +Mr. OSWALD. He is 32 now. + +Representative BOGGS. You never had any problems in school or in the +Marine Corps, did you--I mean serious problems? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; no serious problems. + +Representative BOGGS. You always had problems. But you never were in +any trouble? + +Mr. OSWALD. I have never been in any serious trouble in my life. + +Representative BOGGS. Ever been arrested? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. The only time I was on the inside of a jail was +one time in Hazel, Tex., when I refused to sign a traffic ticket on the +spot and I requested to be taken to the courthouse. + +Representative BOGGS. Did you ever have any psychiatric mental troubles? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. Did you consider your brother a normal human +being? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly did. + +Representative BOGGS. In every way? + +Mr. OSWALD. In every way. + +Representative BOGGS. Did he ever give you any indications of +being--did he ever discuss with you such things as shooting at General +Walker? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. In order to clear something up, Mr. Boggs, let me ask one +question, if I may, for the record. + +Mr. DULLES. Please. Do you want this on the record or off? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, from the time that your brother, Lee Harvey +Oswald came back from Russia, when was this? + +Mr. OSWALD. This was in June 1962. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And then when was the next time that you saw him after he +came to your home in Fort Worth, Tex., in June of 1962? + +Mr. DULLES. Just after he returned from Russia? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. I saw him on a number of occasions there in Fort Worth, +Tex., after he moved out of my residence to mother's, from mother's +apartment to his apartment with Marina, and the children, and when they +moved to Dallas, Tex., that was the last time I saw him. + +Mr. McKENZIE. When did he move to Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. OSWALD. This was approximately October 1962. + +Mr. McKENZIE. All right, from the time of October 1962, when was--from +then when was the next time you saw him? + +Mr. OSWALD. On November 23, 1963. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Where was that? + +Mr. OSWALD. At the Dallas County Jail or Dallas City Jail. + +Mr. McKENZIE. It was the Dallas City Jail. + +Mr. OSWALD. Dallas City Jail. + +Mr. McKENZIE. What were those circumstances? Were you in a room with +him or were you talking to him through a partition or over a telephone +or what, explain that to the Commission, if you will? + +Mr. OSWALD. I was talking to him over a telephone through a glass +window, and he was on the locked side. + +Mr. McKENZIE. So for a period of over a year from the time he left Fort +Worth and moved to Dallas, Tex., you did not see him, is that correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. All right + +Representative BOGGS. When you last saw him was October 1962, is that +what you said? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And you had previously seen him when he resided in your +home for how long a period of time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 6 to 8 weeks. + +Mr. DULLES. I imagine this would be covered later but it fits in. I +think you are quite right. I have a question or two. + +Representative BOGGS. I have to go back to the House in a few minutes. + +Mr. DULLES. Go right ahead. Ask him any questions you wish to. + +Representative BOGGS. At the time he resided in your home these 6 or 8 +weeks were your relations with him cordial or friendly? + +Mr. OSWALD. It was cordial, yes, more or less like he had not been to +Russia. We were just together again. + +Representative BOGGS. Did you have any political discussions with him +at any time? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Representative BOGGS. He never discussed political matters with you? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. I would say we had a tacit agreement +it was never brought up. + +Representative BOGGS. By tacit, do you mean that---- + +Mr. OSWALD. An unspoken agreement that we never would discuss it. + +Representative BOGGS. I understand. Had you arrived at this agreement +because on previous occasions you had disagreed about political matters? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that was not the reason. We just never discussed +politics. + +Representative BOGGS. Did you have any interest in political affairs, I +mean---- + +Mr. OSWALD. A little bit, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. I mean from a philosophical point of view? + +Mr. OSWALD. My own interest in politics from a philosophical point +of view would be that I considered myself a conservative, a born +conservative. Certainly agreed 100 percent with the U.S. Constitution +and the laws that are set forth, and it is my upbringing, it is what I +always believed in and I will always believe in it. + +Representative FORD. Did you say that was your mother's philosophy, too? + +Mr. McKENZIE. No, sir; he did not say. + +Mr. OSWALD. Would I say that? + +Representative FORD. Yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say--I will tell you, at this present time I feel +like perhaps she has been hurt a great deal and perhaps her thinking +is being changed at this very moment and at the present time since +November 22d. + +But prior to that time my opinion would be that she would be of the +same opinion that I was. + +Representative FORD. That is why you said your attitude was based on +your upbringing. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Of course, to qualify that my mother didn't +actually bring me up too much. The orphan home and the military +academy, and I believe there my basic philosophy was formulated. It was +a very good school. + +Representative BOGGS. What military academy was that? + +Mr. OSWALD. Chamberlain Hunt Military Academy at Port Gibson, Miss. + +Representative FORD. During the 6 or 8 weeks that Lee resided in your +home, did he ever indicate why he went to Russia? You must have talked +about it some. + +Mr. OSWALD. There again I believe we did more talking through the mails +about why he went to Russia than we did when he returned from Russia. +I, of course, wanted to talk to him about this. + +Mr. DULLES. You have those letters, I believe. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we have those letters. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Those letters have already been given to the Commission. + +Mr. JENNER. We will present them in evidence, I think probably this +afternoon. + +Representative BOGGS. Did he ever tell you? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not point blank did he ever tell me why he went to +Russia. + +Representative BOGGS. Did he tell you why he came back? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that he was in--the letters that I have from him +while he was in Russia would indicate the same thing, that he was very +unhappy living in Russia and he wanted to return to the United States, +which, of course, made me very happy, and I felt like, and tried to +look at it from the standpoint that maybe he just sowed some wild oats. +He kind of went off to the far end of it, but I believe everyone of us +at one time, especially around that age, might have done something or +reached out far afield, so to speak, before we came to our senses and +returned to a normal life. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he seem different when he came back from Russia, was +there a change in the man before and after? + +Mr. OSWALD. Physically? + +Mr. DULLES. No, I mean at all--changes, outlook, attitude and +general---- + +Mr. OSWALD. The mental attitude he had from his letters that he wrote +me when he first arrived in Russia were quite disturbing to me. +Statements, various statements, I can't quote them word for word, but +in the line of--well, he wanted to denounce his citizenship. He was a +Marxist and he was a Communist and he wanted to stay in Russia, and so +forth. + +But when he started writing again in 1961--yes, 1961, his letters +certainly indicated that he had changed his mind, and that he wanted to +return to the United States and start his life as a U.S. citizen. + +Representative BOGGS. You got to know Mrs. Oswald when she returned +with him? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. Was the relationship between your family and your +wife and Mrs. Oswald, of course, I realize you had a language barrier, +but was it pleasant? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would describe it as very pleasant. We +immediately, my wife and I both, took to Marina and June, the baby, at +that time, and my wife and I both were just tickled to death, so to +speak, for an opportunity to be with somebody like Marina and to show +her things that she had never seen before in her life. + +Representative BOGGS. In the time, of course, you had known her ever +since she came here, and you have seen her since the assassination of +President Kennedy, have you had any feeling that she was anything other +than a normal housewife? You know there has been speculation that in +light of the fact she was born in Russia and that she got an exit visa +without too much difficulty that maybe she had connections that were +not entirely just that of a normal housewife. Did you ever have any +feeling---- + +Mr. OSWALD. The only time I had any reservations about Marina Oswald +was on Friday, November 22, until approximately 2 days later. I say +during this 2-day period I was not sure whether or not she had been +involved in any of the happenings of that date. I wanted not to +believe that she did, but I wanted to be cautious about it. I believe +on Sunday night, November 24, in my presence she gave a complete--and +freely stated everything up to that time that she was aware of to the +U.S. Secret Service on a tape recorder. And I formulated my opinion +then that apparently, and I feel this way now, that she did not have +anything to do with that, and she is nothing other than just what she +appears to be, just a housewife, having a very difficult time at this +time. + +Representative BOGGS. Have you in your own mind reached any conclusions +on whether or not your brother killed President Kennedy? + +Mr. OSWALD. Based on the circumstantial evidence that has been reported +in newspapers and over the radio and television, I would have to say +that it appears that he did kill President Kennedy. + +Representative BOGGS. Would you, having reached that conclusion under +the circumstances that you outlined a moment ago, and having known him +all of his life, although not too intimately the last year of his life, +would you give us any reason for why he may have done this? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I could not. + +Representative BOGGS. It came as, I would think, a great shock to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it certainly did, and I might add that the Lee +Harvey Oswald that I knew would not have killed anybody. + +Representative BOGGS. Have you discussed this matter with your +stepbrother since it happened? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. This, as I understand, Mr. Counsel, is hearsay +but we are just trying to establish---- + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Boggs, in order that the record be absolutely clear, +you were not here when we commenced this morning due to your duties at +the House, let me state this for the purpose of the record and yourself +and the entire Commission, you ask Robert Oswald any question that you +want to ask him. + +Representative BOGGS. Thank you very much. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And furthermore, any information we have or any +information we can get from any source will likewise be turned over to +the Federal Bureau of Investigation or to this Commission or to any +other investigative agency, because---- + +Representative BOGGS. The mandate that we are operating under is that +we discover the truth. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I can assure you, sir, that the main reason that we are +here, and I speak for Robert Oswald, is to see that the truth is given +fully, and developed as fully as possible, to give any light to this +tragic event. + +Representative BOGGS. I just have one or two other questions. + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe your last question was whether or not---- + +Representative BOGGS. I am frankly reluctant to ask you the question, +but you and your brother John must have speculated about how this event +could have happened, did you not? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, and no, sir. To this extent: On Sunday night November +24, with the help of the Secret Service, I was able to reach my older +brother John by telephone. He did not have a telephone in his house. We +had to go through the Air Force base where he was located. + +Mr. DULLES. Where was he living then? + +Mr. OSWALD. In San Antonio with the Air Force. + +I talked to him that night and, of course, at that time he was aware +that Lee had been killed. I talked briefly to him, I say briefly, +perhaps 4 or 5 minutes, and discussed with him whether or not he +thought it was best that he attended the funeral or not, and it was my +opinion that it would not be best for him or his family since he was, +his name was Pic, and to a great extent he would be out of the picture +and there was no sense in exposing him to the publicity of the funeral. +Not to mention the travel time involved in coming up from San Antonio +and the like. + +Mr. DULLES. You were not in touch with him between the time of the +assassination and the arrest of your brother and the time of his death, +the 36 hours? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. You were not in touch with your brother Pic at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. But you attempted to reach him? + +Mr. OSWALD. No. + +Mr. McKENZIE. You did afterwards. + +Representative BOGGS. Have you seen much of your mother since the +assassination? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. + +Representative BOGGS. Is this because you had some emotional problems +or difficulties, or what? + +Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I would say, of course, mother was out at the Inn +of Six Flags with Marina and myself and the children during the week +following up to Friday which would be, I believe, the 29th of November, +when she went to her home and I left her to go after my wife and the +children out at the farm, and Marina went over to Mr. Martin's house, +this was the last time I have seen her since then. She has called quite +a few times. I talked to her a number of times on the telephone. She +is rather persistent to the extent that, and this is not new to me, we +have never really gotten along, she tries to dominate me and my wife, +and I might say that applies to John and his family, and also to the +extent that it applied to Lee and his wife, and there is just generally +the picture as far as I and my mother are concerned. + +Representative BOGGS. That is all, Mr. Chairman. + +Mr. DULLES. The testimony we had here from Mrs. Oswald indicated that +it was approximately a year prior to the assassination of the President +that he had not been in touch with his mother, and your testimony is +to the general effect that about the same period, you had not been in +touch. + +Is that just a coincidence, or did something happen about that time so +that both of you, both brothers more or less separated from the mother? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir---- + +Mr. DULLES. Maybe it is geographic, maybe there is some other reason +for it. + +Representative BOGGS. I had understood him to say he had not been in +contact with his brother Lee, I didn't hear him say anything about his +mother. + +Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. For the year prior to November 22d had +you been in touch with your mother or had your mother been in touch +with you, Robert? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we had not been in touch. + +Representative BOGGS. Your mother in her testimony before the +Commission, gave the impression and later in press stories that she +thought that maybe your brother was an agent of the CIA. Did you ever +have any reason to think that? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; and the only time the thought ever entered my +mind as to him being an agent of the CIA or any other U.S. Government +bureau was on his return from Russia while residing at my residence in +Fort Worth, the FBI had called and requested that he come down for an +interview there in Fort Worth. On the completion of his interview when +I came home from work that night, he discussed it briefly and I asked +him how did they treat him, and so forth. He said just fine, and he +says, "They asked me was I a secret agent," or some type of agent for +the U.S. Government and he laughed and he said, "Well, don't you know?" +I remember that. That was just crossed out of my mind. + +Representative FORD. Between November 22 and the last time you saw your +mother did she ever mention to you that she thought Lee was an agent of +the Federal Government? + +Mr. OSWALD. This was prior to November 22? + +Representative FORD. No, from November 22 until the last time you saw +your mother, did she ever mention to you that she thought Lee was an +agent of the Federal Government? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did. + +Representative FORD. Can you tell us when? + +Mr. OSWALD. During the middle to the latter part of the week that we +were at the Inn of the Six Flags, and at least one conversation since +we left the Inn of the Six Flags, I think it took place during December +1963. + +Mr. JENNER. By telephone or personal? + +Mr. OSWALD. By telephone, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to relate--for Representative +Ford--who was present, what the circumstances were, what was said, and +in the presence of whom by your mother at the Six Flags? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe it was just mother and I, and I might say on +numerous occasions she pulled me to one side or to one room to say +something to me. It was on one of these occasions that she was talking +to me about this. + +Mr. JENNER. Relate as closely as you can recall it now what did she say? + +Mr. OSWALD. She said she had knowledge of facts in writing that almost +conclusively proved to her that Lee was an agent of the CIA. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she identify the facts in writing? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of her on that subject? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ask her to state to you the basis, any specific +basis of hers on which she predicated her statement? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did ask her if she had such facts to please give +it to the U.S. Secret Service. + +Representative FORD. What did she say to that? + +Mr. OSWALD. I think she more or less shrugged her shoulders and walked +off. + +Mr. DULLES. Had she been in touch with the man who has appeared as her +counsel at that time, Mr. Lane? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she had not. + +Mr. DULLES. She had not. + +Representative BOGGS. You at various times have tried to help your +mother, I gather, while you were growing up. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. I gather you found it rather difficult even when +you were younger to get along with your mother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, is that also true of your brother, Lee, and +your brother, John? + +Representative BOGGS. Those were the questions I was about to ask. + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say this would also apply to my older brother John, +and also to Lee. It appears as though Lee was able to put up with her +more than I or my older brother John could. + +Representative BOGGS. Your father died when you were what, about 5? + +Mr. OSWALD. Five years old, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. You were living in New Orleans when he died? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. What did he do? + +Mr. OSWALD. He worked for the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company of +New Orleans, in the office in New Orleans. + +Representative FORD. Were your mother and father living a happy normal +life at the time of his death? + +Mr. OSWALD. Well, sir, I was 5 years old and I would say that they +were. Certainly I do not recall any instance that would indicate that +they were not, and I think we had a very fine family atmosphere. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you state for us, please, on the same subject, the +life and relationship between your mother and Mr. Ekdahl, give us +the same thing with respect to that period, did they get along well +normally? + +Mr. OSWALD. Well, I was, of course, older and perhaps remember more, +to this extent that on perhaps two or three occasions, I recall some +very loud arguments where they were in one room with the door closed, +and perhaps I by myself or perhaps in the presence of John was in +another room. Nothing that I can recall that was said during this +arguing other than it was just loud. + +Mr. JENNER. During this period, Representative Boggs, the two boys +John and Robert were at the military school. They were home during the +summer vacation period but otherwise they were in military school. + +Mr. DULLES. I think maybe we ought to give the witness a little rest. +He has been on for 2 hours. + +Hale, have you got anything more you want to ask now? + +Representative BOGGS. No, I would just like to thank the witness for +his cooperation. + +Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you have anything? Do you have to go back? + +Representative FORD. I am going to stay until we get some notice from +the House if we have any call or a vote. + +Mr. DULLES. Shall we take just 5 minutes off then and it might be +agreeable. + +(Short recess.) + +Mr. DULLES. Proceed, Mr. Jenner. + +Representative FORD. It would be helpful because we are likely to get +a call almost any time to go back to the House, if I could ask a few +questions. + +Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead. + +Mr. DULLES. Okay. + +Representative FORD. Mr. Oswald, what was your reaction to Lee's +discharge from the Marine Corps? + +Mr. OSWALD. He had an honorable discharge he told me. I had no adverse +reaction to it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have in mind, Representative Ford, the change in +the status of that discharge? + +Representative FORD. No, I was referring to the circumstances under +which he was discharged prematurely. He did get an honorable discharge +at the outset but he was released prematurely on a hardship basis. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Were you familiar with that? + +Mr. OSWALD. I was not familiar with that at the time it was going +on. Of course, I was familiar after he was released on that basis. I +remember Lee telling me, he said, "Well, I only lack a month," or a few +days anyway before his regular release was up and I believe that was +all that was said between Lee and I about it. + +Representative FORD. When did you learn about the change in his +discharge? + +Mr. OSWALD. Sometime during the year of 1960, through my mother. She +had advised me at that time she had received mail for Lee from the +Marine Corps or from the Navy Department, stating that generally the +reasons he had not notified them of changes of address, and perhaps +even to the extent that he had left the country in the manner that he +did, that it was going to go before a review board, and that he was to +appear before this board to state his case, otherwise it would proceed +without him. Then I became aware that the board's decision was an +undesirable or a dishonorable discharge, I don't recollect which. + +Representative FORD. Did you take any action when you learned of +these circumstances to help your mother or to contact Lee about this +situation? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; because at this time in reference to Lee there he +had already stopped writing to both I and mother and there was no way +that we knew of to contact Lee, and mother said she was going to take +care of it and try to have it postponed or something or other, and the +board reached a final decision. + +Representative FORD. When your mother went to Washington, did she tell +you in advance or give you any indication she was going to do that? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. I was aware of it after she came back +from Washington. + +Representative FORD. Did she fill you in in some detail about her +return from Washington? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. She did not go into any particular +detail other than she tried to impress on me she had seen some, as she +put it, some very important and influential people in Washington. And +that was about the text of the conversation in reference to that. + +Representative FORD. Did she volunteer this or did you ask her about it? + +Mr. OSWALD. She volunteered this because I did not know of the trip to +Washington until after she returned from the trip to Washington. She +volunteered information to me that she had been in Washington and saw +numbers of people, different people. + +Representative FORD. The principal information you have about Lee's +return from the Soviet Union is included in the letters that you have +from Lee? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Representative FORD. Those will be submitted subsequently. + +Mr. McKENZIE. They have been submitted already, Mr. Ford. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did you address me? + +Mr. McKENZIE. The Commission has copies of the letters. + +Representative FORD. The Commission has copies and they will be +submitted for the record. + +Would you care to comment in addition on what you found out from Lee +subsequently of his experiences in the Soviet Union. Why he wanted to +come back? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I never questioned him about that because we +covered it, I believe quite fully in our letters. I was, of course, +thoroughly convinced and quite happy that he did want to return to the +United States and I felt there was no need to go into the reason why he +changed his mind because I believe we had covered that in the letters. + +Representative FORD. At the time he indicated a desire to come back to +the United States, did he ever contact you about funds for that purpose? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I volunteered to help him any way I could on that. +He turned down the offer. He turned it down one time I believe in +letters offering him to come stay at our house when he returned with +his wife and the baby. + +Representative FORD. When he did return, after having borrowed money +from the Federal Government, did he ever ask you for any help and +assistance in repaying the loan? + +Mr. OSWALD. On his arrival in New York City, I believe the date to be +June 13, back in 1962, my wife received a telephone call from Special +Services Welfare Center located at New York City stating that Lee and +his family were present and that they needed funds to reach their +destination, Fort Worth, Tex., and the lady that talked to my wife put +it to the extent they were unable to help them and if some member of +the family was going to help them, they had better do so then. My wife +didn't know anything else to say but of course that we would, and this +is what I wanted her to say. She called me at my office that day. The +banks had closed but I do have a friend in Fort Worth who was employed +at a bank, cashier, I believe his title, and I called him and asked +him if it would be possible to withdraw $200. This was not at my bank, +I would give him a check on my checking account, and at which time I +wired the money to the welfare bureau in New York, care of Lee Harvey +Oswald. + +Representative FORD. And that was the money that they, Marina and Lee, +used to get to Fort Worth. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Representative FORD. Did Lee ever repay you for that? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. He had actually spent a little over $100 +for the plane tickets and, of course, we met him at Dallas, Love Field, +on their arrival there. The next day even though I insisted that he +keep it, he returned what he had left from the $200 and he said he +would pay me back as soon as he was able to and I told him not to worry +about that, but just to take his time. + +Representative FORD. How long did it take him to repay the remainder? + +Mr. OSWALD. I say approximately $110 to $115 during the period he first +started to work there in Fort Worth and prior to their departure to +Dallas he repaid this $10-$20 a week from his pay check. + +Representative FORD. Did you have any knowledge that Lee had become +fluent in Russian, in the Russian language, at the time he came out of +the Marine Corps? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. There is also one of his first letters +from the hotel in Russia that he pointed out to me that I didn't +even know that he could write or speak Russian. He was being rather +sarcastic in his first letters, and he pointed this out. I would answer +it that I was not aware that he could speak or could write any foreign +language when he was in the Marine Corps and after he got out of it. + +Representative FORD. You had no prior knowledge that he was studying +Russian or had become articulate in Russian? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Representative FORD. In your experiences with Lee during your lifetime, +did he ever show a skill at language, for languages? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I know of no time nor can I recall of any time +that he studied any foreign language or in my presence that he even +read a book in a foreign language or attempted to teach himself any +type of foreign language. + +Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford, if you have reached a break, I would +like to identify the exhibit the witness provided and also identify the +letter to which you now have reference. + +Would you obtain that telegram and also identify the date of the letter +to which you have lastly made reference so that I may identify our +copies? + +Mr. McKENZIE. November 8, 1959, is the letter, Mr. Jenner, and the +telegram is June 14, 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, we have marked photostatic copies of the +telegram to which the witness referred as having been received from the +Special Welfare Services as Commission Exhibit No. 293, and the letter +of November 18, 1959, as Commission Exhibit 294. + +(The telegram and letter referred to were marked Commission Exhibit +Nos. 293 and 294, respectively, for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Would you obtain the original of those or hand the witness +the originals? + +Mr. McKENZIE. I have just handed them to him. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you hand him the original of the letter, please? + +Directing your attention to the telegram first, Mr. Oswald, which is +now marked Commission Exhibit 293, is that the original of the telegram +to which you made reference as having been received first by telephone +call through your wife on June 14, 19---- + +Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, June 13. + +Mr. JENNER. 13? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This reply that we are referring to here now is +June 14. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. OSWALD. We were first contacted on the evening of June 13. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it then, sir, that you received a telephone call on +June 13, is that correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Or your wife did. And Exhibit 293 which is dated the 14th, +is what? + +Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Following the receipt of the telephone call on June 13, did +you receive or did you send any communication from or to the New York +Welfare Center? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I sent a telegram on the afternoon of June 13, +1962, wiring a total of $200 to the Special Service Welfare Center at +New York, and also enclosing a message to Lee to contact me or to the +extent that someone there perhaps would notify me when to expect them +in Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you receive word from New York as to when Lee and +Marina might expect to be in Dallas? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And was that by telegram or telephone? + +Mr. OSWALD. This was by telephone I first received the word. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you receive something in writing that confirmed that? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that document before you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. It is marked Commission Exhibit 293, and you actually +received that document which is now before you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. June 14. + +Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit 293, the +document so marked and identified. + +Mr. DULLES. It may be accepted. + +(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 293 was received +in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. The letter of November 8, 19--do you have a better copy, is +that 1959? + +Mr. OSWALD. It is 1959. + +Mr. DULLES. May I just ask a question, are we putting in the original +of that or is a photographic copy being substituted for it? + +Mr. JENNER. We are employing as a substitute for the original a +photostatic copy which has been marked Commission Exhibit 293. + +Mr. DULLES. All right. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, could I be excused for just a moment, +please? + +(Short recess.) + +Mr. JENNER. In view of the witness' testimony, may I suggest to the +Commission the feasibility of identifying this particular exhibit +since the witness referred to it in response to the questions put by +Representative Ford. + +Mr. DULLES. All right. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you identify the date of Commission Exhibit 294, the +original? + +Mr. OSWALD. The date of the letter is November 8, 1959. + +Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting is it? + +Mr. OSWALD. It is in Lee Harvey Oswald's handwriting. + +Mr. JENNER. It is addressed, the second page of the exhibit, is an +envelope, which is addressed to R. Oswald, 7313 Davenport Street, Fort +Worth, Tex., U.S.A., is that you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you able to identify that which appears in the upper +lefthand corner of the original. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that in Russian? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would assume that it would be. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you receive the letter, Commission Exhibit 294, in due +course? + +Mr. OSWALD. I did. I received it on the 13th day of November 1959. + +Mr. JENNER. Is this the letter to which you made reference in +responding to Representative Ford's questions? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the letter in the same condition now and is the envelope +now in the same condition now that it was when you received it except +that the envelope has been opened to remove the contents? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are. + +Mr. JENNER. Does that include the scratching out that appears at the +bottom of the second page? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that which appears under the attempted obliteration, can +you see what was obliterated on the second page, when you examine the +original? + +Mr. OSWALD. I might refer to the first cross out there, it looks like +he had signed his name there "Lee." The second cross out, one word or +three words or four words out of the five are legible "this written in +Russian" the balance of the words that were crossed out, I cannot make +out. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest, if I may, that the witness +might read this short letter aloud to the Commission which will, +indicate to the Commission the mental state of Lee Harvey Oswald at +the time he went to Russia in the very early days, and bring it to your +attention immediately. + +Mr. DULLES. What is the date of this? + +Mr. McKENZIE. November 8, 1959, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Proceed, if you will. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Do you mind if I read it, Mr. Jenner, and saving his +voice a little bit? + +Mr. JENNER. No. + +Mr. McKENZIE. This I believe is the second letter that Robert received +from Russia after he had sent a telegram to Lee telling him what a +mistake he had made, and this is the contents of the letter. + +"November 8, 1959. Dear Robert: + +"Well, what shall we talk about? The weather perhaps? Certainly you do +not wish me to speak of my decision to remain in the Soviet Union and +apply for citizenship here since I am afraid you would not be able to +comprehend my reasons. + +"You really don't know anything about me. Do you know, for instance, +that I have waited to do this for well over a year? Do you know that I" +then there is a parenthesis and some Russian printing which I presume +to be Russian and the parenthesis is closed, "speak a fair amount of +Russian which I have been studying for many months? I have been told +that I will not have to leave the Soviet Union if I did not care to. +This then is my decision. I will not leave this country, the Soviet +Union under any conditions. I will never return to the United States +which is a country I hate. Some day perhaps soon and then again perhaps +in a few years I will become a citizen of the Soviet Union, but it is +a very legal process in any event. I will not have to leave the Soviet +Union and I will never leave. + +"I received your telegram and I was glad to hear from you. Only one +word bothered me. The word 'mistake' I assume you mean that I have made +a 'mistake.' It is not for you to tell me this. You cannot understand +my reasons for this very serious action. I will not speak to anyone +from the United States over the telephone since it might be tapped by +the Americans. If you wish to correspond with me you can write to the +below address, but I really don't see what we could talk about. If you +want to send me some money that I can use but I do not expect to be +able to pay it back." + +Then it is signed "Lee", and then over to the left-hand side on the +bottom of the page it says, "Lee Harvey Oswald, Metropole Hotel, Room +233, Moscow, USSR," and then underneath some writing in Russian, which +I take to be Russian, which is scratched out. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. + +Mr. McKenzie, you have stated that this was the second letter that had +been received by Mr. Robert Oswald following Lee Harvey Oswald's taking +up residence in Russia. Is that correct, Mr. Oswald? + +Mr. McKENZIE. I said it is the second or third letter. I don't know +exactly. + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, it is the first letter, if I may have a +moment here. + +Mr. JENNER. I thought it was the first. + +Mr. McKENZIE. There is one other letter here from Santa Ana, Calif. + +Mr. JENNER. That was earlier. + +Mr. OSWALD. This was the first letter Lee had written to me from Russia. + +Mr. DULLES. Could you refresh my memory as to the date of his arrival +in Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. October 13. + +Mr. DULLES. October 13. + +Mr. OSWALD. 1959. + +Mr. DULLES. And this was---- + +Mr. JENNER. November 8. + +Mr. DULLES. November 8. He had been there about 3 weeks. + +Mr. OSWALD. The first time I was aware he was in Russia was on +Halloween Day 1959, October 31. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. My attention is arrested to that portion of the letter in +which there appears to be a reference to a telegram which you had +previously sent him. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you sent him such a telegram? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had. + +Mr. JENNER. What impelled you or induced you to do that? What event, +stimulation? + +Mr. OSWALD. After we were notified that Lee was in Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. Who notified you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Star Telegram reporter in Fort Worth, Tex. Later on that +same day there was quite a few newspaper reporters out to my house. +I first objected to speaking to them until they stated that perhaps +if we cooperated with them they would perhaps be the only source of +information--that they could relay to us when they received anything +about what Lee was doing, and so forth, and I agreed to talk to them. + +After this interview with three or four newspaper reporters they had +left the house, and another man, I do not recall his name, from the +Star Telegram in Fort Worth, came to the house, and I spoke with him, +and I believe at this time he suggested that it would not be wise +because I was asking what did he think as to how I might contact Lee, +and he suggested a letter--pardon me, a telegram, to Secretary of State +Christian Herter, and a telegram to Lee. + +I called the Western Union and sent telegrams, and at this time---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, telegrams, you sent one to Mr. Herter and +one to your brother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; sent two. At this time I advised the reporter of +the contents of the telegram. I did not receive confirmation of these +telegrams from Western Union. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it from that you do not have copies? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +However, they are printed in their entirety in the next edition of the +Star Telegram, which I believe would be November 1st edition. + +Mr. JENNER. November 1, 1959? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please state to the best of your present +recollection what your instruction by way of message was to the Western +Union? + +Mr. OSWALD. In the telegram to Secretary of State Christian Herter, I +requested his assistance in contacting Lee Oswald through any means +available. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate for what purpose, sir? + +Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe I did, sir. + +And the telegram to Lee Harvey Oswald, I asked him to contact me +through any means available. I did use the word "mistake." + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please give me your best recollection of the +message, as you recall it, that you dispatched or ordered dispatched? + +Mr. OSWALD. My best recollection of that is I sent the telegram +to Lee Harvey Oswald care of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, Russia, +requesting Lee to contact me through any means available, and the one +word "mistake. Keep your nose clean," signed "Robert L. Oswald, 7313 +Davenport." + +Mr. JENNER. The word "mistake" was by itself? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. The phrase of "keep your nose +clean," is something we have said to each other since knee high, so he +would know that I did send the telegram. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you receive a response to that telegram? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not receive a response to either one of the +telegrams. + +Mr. JENNER. Neither from the State Department, Mr. Herter, nor an +assistant on that telegram, nor from your brother Lee on his telegram? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Other than the letter of November 8, 1959, now identified +as Commission Exhibit No. 294? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. It is the first word you had from him in which he +acknowledges or made plain that he had received the telegram? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, has 294 been submitted? + +Mr. JENNER. I think it has not. May I offer in evidence as Commission +Exhibit 294 the document that has been so identified. + +Mr. DULLES. Accepted. + +(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 294 was received +in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. It being understood with Mr. McKenzie that we may introduce +in evidence the photostatic copy in lieu of the original, the original +having been produced before the Commission. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you speak, did you have any conversation with your +brother upon his return from Russia respecting your dispatch of the +telegram and his reaction to it? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I had more or less forgotten it myself. + +Mr. JENNER. There is a reference in your brother's letter of November +8 to his reluctance to engage in a telephone conversation. Had you +attempted to reach him by telephone? + +Mr. OSWALD. I had decided to try to reach him by telephone on Sunday, +November 1, 1959. I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. You were unable to, you mean? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I placed the call and I received the +New York operator, overseas operator, and there was some discussion as +to what time it was in Moscow, and so forth, and I changed my mind and +did not. However, I am aware that my mother tried and did for a moment +have Lee on the telephone in Moscow. + +Mr. JENNER. At that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. At approximately that same date. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make any effort to reach him by telephone +thereafter? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he reach you by telephone or attempt to do so as far as +you know? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge did he. + +Mr. JENNER. There is a reference in the letter of November 8 to his +willingness to accept money from you if you would send any. Did you +send him any money? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. My reply to that was if he used it to +come back I would gladly send it. + +Mr. JENNER. Your reply--did you write him a letter? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a copy of that letter? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not have a copy of any letter that I wrote to +him. + +Mr. JENNER. You do not know the whereabouts of that letter? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not, other than to say that I asked Mrs. +Marina Oswald if Lee kept any of my letters and her reply was that "No, +he always threw them away." + +Mr. JENNER. In view of that, Mr. Oswald, would you please recite to the +best of your recollection the contents of your letter in response to +your brother's letter of November 8, 1959? + +Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I do not remember anything other than that statement +referring to the money request. I do not recall anything else in the +letter. + +Mr. JENNER. You have heard Mr. McKenzie read that letter through. Did +it refresh your recollection, or does it as to whether you made any +comment upon his political statements in his letter to you of November +8? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not believe I did at any time make any statement in +reference to his political statements that he made in the letter of +November 8. Generally, my statements to the members of the press at the +time was that I felt Lee was not aware of what he was doing. I believe +I referred to him as a kid. And that he just generally didn't know what +he was doing, and that was just about the general text of anything I +had to say to the members of the press at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. There is an entry in your brother's diary of November 1, +1959, somewhat cryptic, referring to three telephone calls from mother +and brother. Now you say you didn't call. Do you know whether your +brother John ever called him? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not to my knowledge. However, that was November 1, +sir, 1959. + +Mr. JENNER. That is when the entry was made. + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say that he did not at that time try to contact +Lee by telephone, because I do not believe at that early date--he was +in Japan and was not aware that Lee had gone to Russia, because we +were just aware of it on October 31, and recalling a letter from John +over there, that he was not aware of it for a number of days after he +actually went over there. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. But efforts were made on the part of your mother to +reach him or she did reach him by telephone? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I understand he spoke to her briefly, and then he +hung up. + +Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of refreshing your recollection, would you +be good enough to read your brother's letter to you or what purports to +be your brother's letter to you of November 26, 1959, and in reading +through it--the reason I have asked you to look at it is that the +letter is framed as a response to what apparently were questions that +you put to him in your letter which was in response to his letter of +November 8, and seeking to refresh your recollection as to the contents +of your letter. + +Mr. Chairman, this is a fairly long letter, and if Chief Justice Warren +has a little time perhaps we might have Mr. Oswald read the letter over +this evening since we are quite late in the day and I can pursue it +tomorrow. + +Mr. DULLES. I think we had better adjourn fairly soon. + +Mr. JENNER. This would be a convenient time if it is convenient with +you gentlemen. + +The CHAIRMAN. What does Mr. McKenzie think, I see him smiling. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I am not going to place myself in a position, Mr. Chief +Justice, of overruling either you or Mr. Dulles. + +Mr. JENNER. I can question the witness with respect to some unrelated +matters. That matter is not related to this, if I might. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, one thing I would appreciate if you could +bring out in response to some of Mr. Bogg's questions which I don't +believe he was quite clear on, I would like for the sake of the +record to show what Robert's career in the Marine Corps was from the +standpoint of whether he was a noncommissioned officer, and so forth, +and so on, if you could bring that out. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +I had asked him to state his military career and maybe out of modesty +he just left left that out. + +Would you--you did give us in detail in your various stages and your +specialty. + +Mr. OSWALD. I might say going through boot camp at San Diego, Calif., +during the second week of boot training I was selected as the right +guide of the platoon which actually was a go-between the drill +instructors and the rest of the platoon, and I retained that position +all the way through the remainder of the boot camp. On completion of +boot camp I was a Pfc. I retained that--excuse me, I retained that rank +until I went to Miami, Fla., at which time on my departure from Miami, +Fla., I received my corporal's stripe, and prior to leaving Korea in +April of 1955 I received my sergeant's stripe which was my last stripe +that I received in the Marine Corps. + +I did receive, of course, an honorable discharge, a Good Conduct Medal, +and the various citations of the unit in Korea, Presidential Unit +Citations, and such. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you. + +I can't recall whether it was Representative Boggs or Representative +Ford who was questioning you about conversations between yourself +and your mother regarding her claim that your brother may have been +a representative of the CIA or some other government agency, and you +mentioned there were two occasions. I did ask you to state the detail +of one of the occasions which was in the Six Flags Motel in Dallas. + +Would you please state where the second conversation took place and who +was present and what was said? + +Mr. OSWALD. The second conversation took place over the telephone in a +call that originated from my mother's house in Fort Worth, Tex., to my +home in Denton, Tex. + +I do not know if my wife was present at my end or who was present on +the other end, at my mother's home. + +Mr. JENNER. You recognized her voice? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. It was your mother? + +Mr. OSWALD. It was my mother. + +Mr. JENNER. What did she say on the subject? + +Mr. OSWALD. She was still pursuing this question or this speculation as +far as I am concerned that Lee was an agent of the CIA, and that she +was going to be able to, I believe use used the word "concrete", to be +able to concretely establish that with the officials. + +Mr. JENNER. You fixed that as having occurred subsequent to the +occasion in the Six Flags Motel? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Can you fix the time of the second occasion more definitely +than that it followed the other? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say this was approximately during the week of +December 9, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it before or after her trip to Washington which you +have testified about when Mr. Ford questioned you? + +Mr. OSWALD. This was before her trip to Washington. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when your mother returned from Washington, when she +made her trip here about which you testified in response to questions +from Representative Ford, did she say anything about her claim or +speculation, as you put it, that your brother was or might have been an +agent of the CIA or some other agency of the United States? + +Mr. OSWALD. I have not talked to my mother since she has been to +Washington. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. So there has been no claim by her to you since the +occasion of the second conversation which was a telephone call? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. During the time of your youth and your association with +your brother Lee you testified this morning of the normal interest of +boys in firearms. You have also testified that your brother Lee was +right handed. Did you ever see him handle even a toy pistol or a cap +gun other than with his right hand? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not that I can remember. You, of course, recall +sometimes when maybe he was Two-Gun Pete, so to speak. + +Mr. JENNER. He was what? + +Mr. OSWALD. He was Two-Gun Pete, so to speak, when we were playing cops +and robbers or cowboys and Indians, where he would have two guns. + +Mr. JENNER. With the exception of having two guns when he had one he +had it in his right hand? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. What ever type of playing, shooting, sitting, or otherwise, +he always had the pistol, rifle or cap gun in his right hand? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You said you were using B-B guns. Were there occasions when +Lee also occasionally shot a B-B gun rifle? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I have a recollection that when he was mustered out of the +service in September of 1959 he spent two or three days at home in Fort +Worth. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And there was an occasion when you and he and some friends +of yours went on a hunting trip. + +Mr. OSWALD. My brother-in-law. + +Mr. JENNER. Or you went squirrel shooting or rabbit shooting. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Just the two of you, or did anybody accompany you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Three of us. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have a rifle? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Those I take it were .22's. + +Mr. OSWALD. All three were .22 caliber, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did you obtain them? + +Mr. OSWALD. Two of them belonged to me and one of them belonged to my +brother-in-law. + +Mr. JENNER. Your brother-in-law? + +Mr. OSWALD. My brother-in-law. + +Mr. JENNER. What is his name? + +Mr. OSWALD. S. R. Mercer, Jr. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion of this trip? How did it come about? +Did you suggest it, your brother-in-law, Lee or how? + +Mr. OSWALD. The day that I recall that Lee stayed with us in--between +the time he was discharged and the time he was supposed to be leaving +for New Orleans was a period of 2 to 3 days. One of those days, I +feel sure was a Saturday, either we spent all day out at my in-laws' +farm or the afternoon at the farm at which time Lee and I, and my +brother-in-law went hunting. + +Mr. DULLES. Was this a couple of days before he left for Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. This was a couple of days before he left for New Orleans or +about 1 day or 2 days before he left for New Orleans. + +Mr. DULLES. And then he shipped out? + +Mr. OSWALD. To locate a job. + +Mr. JENNER. On that occasion, that incident, did he have occasion to +discharge the .22 caliber rifle he was carrying? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see him do so? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. From what shoulder did he, against which shoulder did he +place the butt of the gun? + +Mr. OSWALD. The right shoulder. + +Mr. JENNER. And with which hand or fingers of which hand did he pull +the trigger and discharge the gun? + +Mr. OSWALD. The right hand, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he exhibit any proficiency in the use of that .22 +caliber gun on that occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say an average amount. + +Mr. JENNER. Hunting rabbits or squirrels with a rifle takes pretty good +marksmanship. Did any of you boys bring down a rabbit or squirrel, on +the fly, I mean? + +Mr. OSWALD. As I recall, one small, very small cottontail as he ran +across the peanut field, all three of us were shooting at him, and +my weapon that I had, one of the weapons that belonged to me, was a +semiautomatic 22 and I perhaps had a burst of four or five rounds that +I said I got him. But all three of us were shooting at him. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Did all three of you claim him? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that your only victory on that hunting trip or did +someone else shoot down a squirrel or a rabbit? + +Mr. OSWALD. No squirrels were killed that day and perhaps I believe +this was the occasion that we went into what we called a briar patch +located off to the left of the farmhouse; at that particular time it +was very thick with cottontails, and I believe we exterminated about +eight of them at that time between the three of us because it was the +type of brush and thorns that didn't grow very high but we were able to +see over them, so getting three of us out there it wasn't very hard to +kill eight of them. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, had you and your brother engaged in this very light +form of hunting at any other time during your lifetime? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the frequency of that? + +Mr. OSWALD. If I recall, only one other occasion that we had been +hunting together. This was during a leave that Lee had from the Marine +Corps. + +Mr. JENNER. During a leave that he had? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And at which time, if I may correct myself there, +another time comes to mind, I recall two times that we had this type +of light hunting out there at that farm, at the same place. One time +was during a leave that he had from the Marine Corps. I don't recall +of any game at that particular time that we shot. I know we did handle +the rifle and fired maybe target practice, something along that line. I +don't recall of anything. + +The second time that I now remember is during his stay after he +returned from Russia, during his stay at my home in Fort Worth, that my +wife and I and our children took him and his wife and child out to the +farm to meet our in-laws, my in-laws, and also to do a little hunting +while we was out there, and which we did just a very little bit. I +believe this was on a Sunday afternoon and we didn't stay out very long. + +Mr. JENNER. What weapons did you use on that occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. On that occasion, I believe the same weapons we used before. + +Mr. JENNER. Would that be true of all three occasions? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe on the first occasion, which was the occasion +that Lee came home on leave, that at that time I only owned one .22 +rifle. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that the semiautomatic? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not the semiautomatic, it was a bolt +action rifle, with a clip on it. However, I believe Lee either used my +brother-in-law's rifle---- + +Mr. JENNER. Was that a bolt-action rifle? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is a bolt-action rifle. He either used that +rifle or a single-shot, bolt-action rifle, another .22 that was out at +the farm. + +Mr. JENNER. On the occasion during which you went hunting during +that 3-day period, interregnum his return and his discharge and his +departure for New Orleans, was the weapon he employed a bolt-action +weapon? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it a fair statement on my part that on all the occasions +that you recall hunting with Lee he employed a bolt-action rifle? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. During your youth and prior to these occasions about which +you testified, do you know of the fact or know by rumor or otherwise +that your brother engaged in this light hunting or other kind of +hunting where he used a firearm even though he was not with you or you +did not accompany him? + +Mr. OSWALD. I feel surely that he did, without recalling any particular +time that he told me, but his interest along that line was generally +like mine, that is hunting and fishing, and I am sure when he had an +opportunity to hunt that he did do so. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he ever tell you about hunting in Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that, please, tell us when the +conversation took place and the circumstances, if it was a conversation? + +Mr. OSWALD. The circumstances was it was in a letter I received from +him. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that one of the letters you produced? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with him in addition to the +letter, apart from the letter? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did along that line because as I stated our +interests in hunting and fishing was mutual and he did state that he +was able to---- + +Mr. JENNER. In response to Mr. Dulles' question, would you give the +conversation? We will take care of the letter in the morning. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am trying to give the conversation. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. Proceed. + +Mr. OSWALD. That we talked about hunting over there, and he said that +he had only been hunting a half dozen times, and so forth, and that he +had only used a shotgun, and a couple of times he did shoot a duck. + +Mr. JENNER. It was all shotgun shooting, no rifle shooting? + +Mr. OSWALD. No rifle shooting, no sir. That is all they were allowed to +have, the shotgun. + +Mr. JENNER. This conversation took place, as I understand it, on his +return from Russia when he was living with you for that month, that +would be June-July of 1962? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is the extent of the conversation? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is. + +Mr. JENNER. As you now recall it--there have been some reports, and +they are only reports as far as we of the staff are concerned, of +speculation about a television set, whether your brother purchased or +owned a television set and whether he purchased it outright or on time +with a guarantee from you. + +What information or knowledge do you have in that connection? + +Mr. OSWALD. I am not aware that he purchased a television set, sir. I +did at his request, when he and Marina and the baby were living in Fort +Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. Where in Fort Worth? + +Mr. OSWALD. Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, in a small duplex which +was---- + +Mr. JENNER. Can you fix even more definitely the time of this event? + +Mr. OSWALD. This was approximately the latter part of September, 1962. +And at his request---- + +Mr. JENNER. He came to you, excuse me. + +Mr. OSWALD. He called me, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He called you by telephone? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he called me at my office from his place of +employment in Fort Worth at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Give us the substance of what he said. + +Mr. OSWALD. We talked briefly about how each family was doing, and so +forth, and he said that he would like to establish credit and he had +tried to charge something at Montgomery Ward's at Fort Worth, the West +7th Street store, and they had stated that he needed to have somebody +cosign or vouch for him, and this was his request to me, and I said +gladly I would do so, and late that afternoon after work, this was +approximately 5:30 by the time I arrived at Montgomery Ward, I did +sign for Lee's charge account. However, I was not aware of what he was +charging. + +Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion, I take it, at that time of +what--the use to which he intended to put his credit? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe perhaps he did mention something about a +baby chair and a baby bed. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any discussion between you about his +purchase or acquisition of a television set? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you ever in his home or apartment? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see a television set there? + +Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, you are referring to the apartment on Mercedes +Street, is that correct? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, I was in his home quite a few times and there was not +a television set that I remember. + +Mr. JENNER. On any occasion that you were there? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. On any occasion when you were in any place of residence +of your brother after his return to the United States, did you see in +those premises a television set? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Where was that? + +Mr. OSWALD. At my house and at my mother's house. + +Mr. JENNER. I should have been more specific and identified a residence +as one of his own rather than living with you or living with your +mother. + +Mr. OSWALD. At no residence that he lived in that I was aware of at any +time did I see him with a television set that I would take to be his +own. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions--did any discussion ever +occur between the two of you with respect to his acquisition of a +television set? + +Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. This is, as far as you are concerned, a total blank, this +television set matter? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. I think we had better adjourn pretty soon. This man has had +quite an ordeal for the day. + +Mr. JENNER. It is acceptable. + +Mr. DULLES. Is it acceptable to you? + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. I have no objection to continuing. + +Mr. McKENZIE. If you would prefer to reconvene tomorrow morning we can +reconvene then. + +Mr. RANKIN. I think 9 o'clock is better. I think we can finish up in +the morning. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you. At 9 o'clock in the morning. + +(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Friday, February 21, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED + +The President's Commission met at 9 a.m. on February 21, 1964, at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; and Allen W. Dulles, +member. + +Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, +Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; and +William McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald. + + +The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order. + +As yesterday, I will only be able to be here for a comparatively short +time, because we have our weekly conference of the Supreme Court today. +And when I leave, Mr. Allen Dulles will conduct the hearing. We will +now proceed with the testimony. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. + +I would like to return, Mr. Oswald, to the time that your brother Lee +was discharged from military service and spent approximately 3 days at +home. You recall that period? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please describe his physical appearance the +last time you saw him during that 3-day period? + +Mr. OSWALD. His hair was brown and curly, a full set of hair. His +physical appearance--he was trim, weighed approximately 140 pounds, he +was approximately 5 foot 9-1/2, he seemed to be in fine physical shape +at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. I mentioned 3 days. Was I wrong about the 3 days, or was it +a little longer period? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; my recollection on that period was 2 or 3 days, +and only during one of these day do I remember seeing him. He spent the +day at our house. + +Mr. JENNER. It was your impression, sir, that he was in good health, +bright and alert mentally at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he most certainly was. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you describe his physical appearance as far as his head +of hair was concerned? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. A full head of hair? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he appear strained in any respect? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. His mental condition, as far as you can tell, is what you +would regard or had regarded as normal during your acquaintance with +him as his brother? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, will you then jump to the first time you saw him +subsequently thereto, which I understand was in June 1962. State the +date, please, as closely as you can. + +Mr. OSWALD. This was June 14, 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. And where did you see him? + +Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas, Love Field. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, on that occasion--and take in also the period of +time that he lived with you in your home during June and part of July +1962--what did you observe, and if in contrast by way of contrast, in +his physical appearance and demeanor as against the last time you had +seen him, in 1959. + +Mr. OSWALD. His appearance had changed to the extent that he had lost +a considerable amount of hair; his hair had become very kinky in +comparison with his naturally curly hair prior to his departure to +Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. Had his hair been in any respect kinky, as you put it, in +November of 1959 immediately prior to his leaving for Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. That would have been in September. + +Mr. JENNER. September--I am sorry. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. It was curly. + +Mr. JENNER. Did that arrest your attention, the difference in the +texture of his head of hair? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it certainly did. + +Mr. JENNER. You, though 5 years old at the time of your father's +death--do you recall his physical appearance insofar as his head of +hair? + +Mr. OSWALD. My father's head of hair? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. He had a full set of hair. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any baldness or tendency towards baldness in +your family? + +Mr. OSWALD. None that I am aware of. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I include both your mother and father and relatives on +either side, to the extent that you have met those people. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; no one that I recall that I met, relatives on +either my father's or mother's side, had any tendency towards baldness. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have none? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. And your brother John? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He still has a full head of hair? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Even now? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What else did you observe by way of his facial +appearance--whether he was drawn, or bouncy and healthy, as he had been +when you had seen him in September of 1959? + +Mr. OSWALD. He appeared the first couple of days upon his return, +June 14, 1962, to be rather tense and anxious. I also noted that his +complexion had changed somewhat to the extent that he had always been +very fair complected--his complexion was rather ruddy at this time--you +might say it appeared like an artificial suntan that you get out of a +bottle, but very slight--in other words, a tint of brown to a tint of +yellow. + +Mr. JENNER. What else did you notice by contrast, so far as his +physical appearance is concerned? And then, next, I want to go to his +demeanor. + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe his weight perhaps was a little bit less at that +time. I would say probably 5 pounds--approximately 5 pounds less than +what he was in 1959, before he went to Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say he appeared drawn as compared with his +appearance in 1959--facially? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say to some extent; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please relate to the Commission any other +differences, if there were any, in demeanor? + +Mr. OSWALD. To me, he acted the same as he did in 1959 prior to going +to Russia. Our conversations at the time he returned from Russia in +June of 1962--he appeared to be the same boy I had known before, with +the exception of what I noted on his physical appearance. + +As far as his conversations were concerned at this particular time, +June of 1962, I noticed no difference. + +He appeared to have picked up something of an accent. But I took this +to mean that because he had been speaking the Russian language and +living in Russia during a period of approximately two and a half years, +that this was the reason for the accent. + +Mr. JENNER. Did these differences in physical appearance, especially +his hair, his skin tone, his overall facial and physical appearance, +lead you at that moment, in the light of what had occurred in the +meantime, your exchange of correspondence, lead you to form an opinion, +at least tentative, as to what might have occurred or happened to your +brother while he was in Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. In reference to that, sir; his hair--I did, either on the +first or second night, when he was there at the house--I pointed it out +to him and actually had him bend his head down to where I could look +at the top of it, and it was very thin on the top--you could see just +right down to his scalp. + +And his comment on that was that he thought the weather had affected +his hair, the cold weather. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he make any comments when you met him at Love Field, +and did you ride in with him from Love Field to your home? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. We were in my personal car, and my wife and +my children were with me. We met him and his wife and his baby. He +seemed, perhaps the word is disappointed, when there were no newspaper +reporters around. He did comment on this. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us what he said. + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe his comment was something, "What, no +photographers or anything?" + +I said, "No, I have been able to keep it quiet." + +Mr. JENNER. And where was that remark made? + +Mr. OSWALD. At Love Field, as they came through the gate. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he make any remarks on that subject as you drove into +town? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he make any other comments that arrested your attention +when he arrived at Love Field or while you were driving into town? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. In reference to newspaper reporters +again, or photographers, he asked me if I had been receiving calls and +so forth, and I told him I had received two or three calls, but I said +nothing, and they were not aware of his schedule of arrival in the +United States, and they were not aware at that time, to my knowledge, +that he had arrived at Love Field, and that he was going to be at my +home. + +Mr. JENNER. Having in mind the changes in physical appearance, and also +the course of events since the day of his arrival at Love Field to the +present time, have you formed an opinion, Mr. Oswald, as to whether +your brother may have undergone some treatment of some kind in Russia +that affected his mind? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Since Lee's death on November 24th, I have formed +an opinion in that respect. + +Mr. JENNER. What is that opinion? + +Mr. OSWALD. That, perhaps in sheer speculation on my part--that due to +the nature of the change in his hair, in the baldness that appeared, +I reached the opinion that perhaps something in the nature of shock +treatments or something along that line had been given him in Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. You base this opinion on any factors other than or in +addition to this change of physical appearance that you noted on his +return from Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. Has the course of events affected the opinion you have now +expressed? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; since the course of events, since Friday, +November 22, 1963, his death following on the 24th of November 1963, +I have searched my own mind for possible reasons of why or how this +all came about. That has been one of my opinions--in reference to his +hair structure and so forth, and his baldness--pardon me just a minute, +please. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you concluded your answer? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. Has this course of events and your brother's physical +appearance and any other factors you had in mind led you to form an +opinion as to whether he was or had been an agent of the government of +the USSR? + +Mr. McKENZIE. You are asking him, Mr. Jenner, to speculate. + +Mr. JENNER. I am. + +Mr. OSWALD. May I have that again, please? + +Mr. McKENZIE. His question was--this is off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, may I ask a question at this time? + +Robert, at any time after your brother returned from Russia, or at any +time after he went to Russia, did he ever remark to you as to whether +or not he had been ill while in Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Has his wife, Marina Oswald, ever said anything to you +about whether or not he was ill while he resided in Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she has. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And what did she say? + +Mr. JENNER. Could you fix the time, please? + +Mr. OSWALD. My conversation with Marina Oswald? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 4 weeks ago, in one of our conversations. + +Mr. JENNER. And where did that take place? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe in my car on the way to the cemetery, or +returning from the cemetery, to Mr. Martin's house, in Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. Anyone other than Marina and yourself present? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. State the conversation. + +Mr. OSWALD. If I may fix the date more accurately here, sir; if I could +possibly refer to my diary. + +I recall this conversation on January 13, 1964, between Marina Oswald +and myself in my car, at which time she stated to me---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, to what are you now referring to refresh +your recollection? + +Mr. OSWALD. This would be to a followup of the conversation we had in +reference to---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--the document. + +Mr. OSWALD. I am referring to my notebook that I have been keeping in +various events that have occurred since November 22, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, would you read the first +three words and the last three words of the page to which you are +making reference? + +Mr. OSWALD. "Sunday, January 13, 1964. Jim advised that"---- + +Mr. JENNER. That is on the first line? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. The last line is "told her this story." + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed, sir. + +Mr. OSWALD. We had a discussion---- + +Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me just a second. + +For the sake of the record, let me state this. A copy of this diary has +been furnished to the Commission, photostated by the Commission, and +Mr. Jenner has it in front of him. + +Mr. JENNER. I will qualify it, Mr. Chief Justice. But I didn't want +to take Your Honor's time at the moment, because I do want to cover +another subject while you are still here. + +Proceed, sir. + +Mr. OSWALD. What prompted my question as to whether or not Lee was +ill while he was in Russia was the followup of a conversation that we +had in relation to an incident that occurred some time in the year +of 1963. I am not able to place the date of that purported incident. +I was advised at that time in reference to this incident that on one +day, that Lee was going to shoot at or shoot Mr. Richard M. Nixon, +that Marina N. Oswald locked Lee Harvey Oswald in the bathroom for the +entire day. + +At the end of this brief remark in relation to Mr. Nixon, I asked her +at that time had Lee been ill or been in the hospital while he was +in Russia. And, at this time, she told me yes, that he had, on two +occasions, been in the hospital in Russia. + +I asked her what was the nature of the illness. My best recollection of +that, sir, was that he was having difficulty with his sinus, and that +the cold was bothering him somewhat. And I do not recall anything more +specific than that in relation to the illness. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there? + +Did Marina say whether this was while they were in Minsk, or she didn't +indicate where he was at the time? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not. + +Mr. DULLES. She did not? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you now stated and exhausted your recollection of +everything she said on that subject of his illness on that particular +occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. And you did not pursue the matter any further than you have +indicated with her? + +Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I believe I attempted to, and with her limited +knowledge of the English language, we were encountering some +difficulties. And I told her perhaps at a later date, or something of +that nature, that we could discuss it more fully. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pursue it with her on any subsequent occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. If I may, Mr. Chief Justice, I will return to that illness +feature at a later point. + +You have an entry in your diary under the date of January 13, 1964---- + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, in reference to Mr. Nixon? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Now, you have alluded to Mr. Nixon in testifying with respect to your +conversation on the subject of illness with Marina. + +Mr. Chief Justice, if I may, I will read the entry on that particular +date, and will wish to question the witness about it. + +"Sunday, January 13, 1964. Jim advised that Marina told him that +Lee wanted to"--and there are a series of five dashes, followed by +the letters, "NMR, also, but Marina locked Lee in the bathroom all +day. This was confirmed later this day by Marina. On the way to the +cemetery." + +Is that in your handwriting? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please supply, if suppliable, what is indicated +by the three dashes preceding the letters "NMR" and identify what the +letters "NMR" refer to? + +Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, correct you there. There are five dashes +there. And the word "shoot" was my intention to leave blank there. And +the initials "NMR" stands for Richard M. Nixon in reverse. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that the five dashes were inserted there +as a substitute for the word "shoot"? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And the initials are those of Richard M. Nixon reversed? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please state fully when this matter or this +incident first came to your attention where and through and by whom? + +Mr. OSWALD. The first time I was aware of this incident was at Mr. Jim +H. Martin's home in Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. On what day? + +Mr. OSWALD. On Sunday, January 13, 1964. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion for your being there? + +Mr. OSWALD. To visit with Marina, and to take her to the cemetery. + +Mr. JENNER. You entered the home? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your wife, Mrs. Oswald, with you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she was. + +Mr. JENNER. Your children? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were. + +Mr. JENNER. You entered the home, and who was there? + +Mr. OSWALD. Mr. and Mrs. James H. Martin, I believe their children were +also present, and in the living room of their home there was two Secret +Service agents, or one Secret Service agent, and two Dallas police +officers. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you able to identify any of those four men? + +Do you recall any of them at the moment? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that one of the Secret Service agents, if +he was either the only one there, or two of them were there, the one +that I do recall, Mr. Bob Jameson or Jimson, of the Dallas office--the +U.S. Secret Service office in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, to what Richard M. Nixon did the initials "NMR" as you +have placed them in this note refer? + +Mr. OSWALD. To the past Vice President of the United States. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, proceed to tell us about how the circumstance arose, +your first conversation of it, your first notice of it. + +Mr. OSWALD. I was talking with Mr. Jim Martin about various other +matters. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. Where were you in talking to Mr. Jim Martin? + +Mr. OSWALD. I was in the den of his home, sitting on a sofa. + +Mr. JENNER. And who was present? + +Mr. OSWALD. Jim Martin and I were sitting on the sofa, and I believe my +wife and his wife were at the end of the den in the kitchen part of it, +standing by the sink. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the distance between yourselves sitting on the sofa +and the others? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately 12 or 15 feet, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And was there a doorway, was it open? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is an open room. + +Mr. JENNER. So you were all in the same room--one section of it you +describe as a den? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And the other section consists of what? + +Mr. OSWALD. The kitchen, the sink, refrigerator, a washing machine, +built-in oven and range. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed. + +Mr. OSWALD. We discussed other matters. I do not recall what they were. +Just talking to him about how Marina was doing and so forth, and any +other thing that we might be talking about in general, small talk. And +we finally--he finally brought up this question. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say and how did he approach it? Reproduce it as +best you can, sir. + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe he moved very close to me. I was turned towards +him. He was to my left. I might say at this time that the women at the +sink would be on my far right, behind me generally. And he related to +me---- + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say? + +Mr. OSWALD. This incident, that Marina had told him that on a day still +not identified to me, that he, Lee Harvey Oswald, had the intention to +shoot Mr. Richard M. Nixon, and that Marina N. Oswald had locked Lee +in the bathroom for the entire day. And that was the text to my best +remembrance--that was everything that was said from him. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you now exhausted your recollection? + +Mr. OSWALD. Of Mr. Martin's conversation to me? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say how he had come about this information? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, other than he had a conversation with Marina N. Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. And he was relating to you a conversation he had had with +her? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say that she had reported this to him? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of him as to why this had not been +disclosed to you before? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ask any questions of him in that connection? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +I might add that my reaction at that time was that I was rather +speechless. I believe I just shook my head in utter disbelief to what I +was hearing. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Martin relate to you when Marina had told him this +story? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you question him with respect to that? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you make any effort to fix the time when the event in +question had taken place? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; in my own mind I did. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't question Mr. Martin about it, however? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. DULLES. At this time, did you know of the rumors with regard to the +attack on General Walker or not? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. And I refer, again, to the entry on +January 13, 1964, and the statement that Jim advised that Marina told +him that Lee wanted to "blank NMR, also." And by that "also" I was +aware of the attempt on General Walker's life. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the course of your conversation +with Mr. Martin in the den with respect to the information you had that +an attempt had been made by your brother on the life of General Walker? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not at this conversation, it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever talk to Mr. Martin at any time subsequent to +this, with respect to this event? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--preceding this day of January 13, 1964, +approximately 3 or 4 weeks prior to that---- + +Mr. JENNER. This particular event, I mean--Mr. Martin's relating to +you that Marina had advised him that your brother wanted to shoot +Richard M. Nixon, the Vice President of the United States. Did you +have a further conversation with Mr. Martin at any time subsequent to +that--that is, after January 13, 1964? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. You have not up to this moment? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not at any time later that day? You had only this +one conversation with Mr. Martin, and none other? + +Mr. OSWALD. On this subject, yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. On this particular subject, you made no effort to question +him further about it? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have now exhausted your recollection as to all of +your conversation on this occasion with Mr. Martin? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. And you at no time ever pursued it further with him? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you report or relate this to the Secret Service or the +FBI or any other agency of the U.S. Government? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me just a minute, Mr. Jenner. May I ask a question? + +You have, have you not, furnished the FBI a copy of this diary that you +have kept since November 22d? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And likewise you furnished it to this Commission? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. When was your diary furnished to the Commission for the +first time? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yesterday morning. + +Mr. OSWALD. February 20, 1964. + +Mr. JENNER. Yesterday morning when you and your counsel tendered it to +me? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. But between the 13th of January 1964 and yesterday morning, +when you tendered the diary to me, you made no tender of any written +materials nor did you relate orally to any agent or agency of the U.S. +Government this particular incident? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had. + +Mr. JENNER. You had? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Please state to whom and when? + +Mr. OSWALD. This was two FBI agents on the night of--may I have a +calendar, please? + +On February 18, 1964, I turned over my notebook to two FBI agents at my +home in Denton, Tex., at which time they asked me about this particular +incident. I referred them to my diary, and turned over the diary, with +the advice of my counsel. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that incident related by you to them at your instance, +or did they come to you with specific reference to it? + +Mr. OSWALD. They did have a specific reference to it on the night of +February 18, 1964. + +Mr. JENNER. Who raised it--you or the agents? + +Mr. OSWALD. The agents did, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they state to you as to how they had come to have that +information? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. For the sake of the record, Mr. Jenner, I would like to +state what I told the agents. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, returning to--when did you tell them, Mr. McKenzie? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, the best I recall it was either Monday--it +was Monday, February 17th. + +Mr. JENNER. Monday of this week? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, this past Monday. + +And I might add that I received the diary myself sometime around 5:15 +or 5 o'clock on Saturday, February 15th, and I read the diary Sunday +evening, February 16th, and gave the information to the FBI agents on +February 17th, at which time I suggested that if they would like to +talk to Robert about it they could be free to do so. + +Mr. OSWALD. May I say something here, Bill? + +Mr. McKenzie did not know the exact meaning of this statement on +January 13, 1964. He asked me in his office on Monday afternoon, +February 17, 1964, to fill in the blanks, and to give the man's name to +the initials and what it meant, at which time I did. + +Mr. JENNER. But from the 13th of January 1964 to Saturday February 15, +1964, you had not drawn this matter to the attention of any agency +of the United States or any agent of the United States, or any other +person, is that correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. I did not speak to any agent +of the U.S. Government. + +My wife read my diary, and she asked me what that entry was. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you prepare this diary? + +Mr. OSWALD. I prepared it on the dates noted in the diary. In this +particular instance, Sunday, January 13, 1964. + +Mr. JENNER. That particular entry, I take it, then, from your +testimony, was made contemporaneously with the event itself--that is, +on January 13, 1964? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. This news from Mr. Martin startled and upset you, did it +not? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did. + +Mr. JENNER. You mentioned that you had gone to the Martin home, one of +the purposes being to take Marina to the cemetery. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you do so? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. As soon as you were in her presence in the automobile, or +while you were driving there, did you raise this subject with her? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. You made no mention of what Mr. Martin had said to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever speak to Marina about it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she raised the question to me, or told me of the +incident. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Was it on your way to the cemetery, while you were there, or returning +from the cemetery? + +Mr. OSWALD. On the way to the cemetery, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Please try to reconstruct the circumstances, and state as +clearly as you can how she raised the subject with you, and what she +said--first stating, however, who was in the automobile as you were +driving to the cemetery. + +Mr. OSWALD. It was Marina N. Oswald and myself, only. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Now, try to--give us the scene just as it occurred--how she brought it +out. + +Mr. OSWALD. We had been talking about the children, her children and +my children, family affairs, and so forth, attempting to carry on a +reasonable facsimile of a complete conversation within her limited +knowledge of English. And at a pause in this conversation, she started +relating to me this incident. + +Mr. JENNER. Please, Mr. Oswald--when you say she started relating this +incident, it doesn't help us any, it is not evidentiary. How did she do +it? What did she say, as best you are able to recall? How did she bring +it up? + +Mr. McKENZIE. In her own words, Robert, try to reconstruct exactly what +was said to you from the time you left Jim Martin's house until you +went--in Dallas, Tex., until you arrived in Fort Worth, Tex., at the +cemetery. + +Mr. OSWALD. On this subject, to the best of my knowledge, Marina said +to me, "Robert, Lee also wanted to shoot Mr. Nixon." And, at that time, +I believe I gave her the statement that "Yes, Jim told me about this +when we were sitting in the den that afternoon." + +Mr. JENNER. You say you gave her the statement--you mean that is what +you said to her? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +And she made her statement, referring to this incident of Mr. Nixon. + +And then she related---- + +Mr. JENNER. What did she say? + +Mr. OSWALD. I might say this, sir. In practically the same words +that Mr. Martin had told me, because he had reportedly received the +conversation from Marina, within her limited English--it rang a bell to +the extent that the words were close to being the same to the way Mr. +Martin had related it to me. + +It was a very brief statement on her behalf that Lee was going to shoot +Mr. Richard M. Nixon, and that she, Marina N. Oswald, locked Lee in the +bathroom all day. + +I did ask her was he very angry. Her reply was at first he certainly +was, or was, but later---- + +Mr. JENNER. When you say at first, you mean her first response to your +question was, "He certainly was." + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; or that he was. I don't believe she knows the +word "certainly." That he was angry, and that he calmed down during the +period that he was locked in the bathroom. + +And I asked her at the end of that statement, "Did he beat you or hurt +you?" + +She said, "No, he did not spank me." + +That is, to the best of my recollection, the entire conversation on the +incident of Mr. Richard M. Nixon. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire--you have now exhausted your recollection? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of her as to when this incident took place? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she volunteer it? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of Mr. Martin as to when the incident took +place? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall that I did, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you make any inquiry as to where they were residing at +the time the incident was alleged to have taken place, or might have +taken place? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you assume any particular residence? + +Mr. OSWALD. I assumed that this took place in one of two apartments +that they lived in in Dallas, Tex. The addresses I am not familiar +with. They are the only two houses or apartments that I did see for +myself from the outside on the night of Thanksgiving, 1963, whatever +the date was, at which time we had dinner at the Martin's home for the +first time that Mrs. Martin had met Marina N. Oswald. + +And, at the conclusion of the dinner, the Secret Service agents, with +us, wanted Marina to point out to them the two apartments that they had +lived in in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. And you accompanied them, did you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was in the car. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you thereafter pursue this occurrence, or alleged +occurrence, and obtain any additional information about it, with +anybody--the Secret Service, the FBI, Mr. Thorne, Mr. Martin, +Marina--anybody at all? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of Marina as to how she locked him in the +bathroom? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you that it might be quite difficult for a +98-pound woman to lock your brother in a bathroom? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it has occurred to me exactly how this was +possible, to the extent that a bathroom usually has a lock on the +inside and not on the outside. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, if he didn't want to be locked in the bathroom, +she would have quite a difficulty--she could not force him into the +bathroom. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, that is a question for rank speculation. + +Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that, sir. I am trying to jog his recollection. + +Mr. McKENZIE. May I ask him a question at this time to maybe perhaps +assist you? + +The CHAIRMAN. You may ask, yes. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, has Marina told you at anytime or do you now know +where they were residing when this occurrence happened? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she has not. And I am not aware from any source +where this event took place. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Were you ever in their apartments in Dallas, Tex., at +anytime? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Prior to going to--with the Secret Service and Marina on +Thanksgiving evening, was that the first time that you had ever seen +the apartments where they lived? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. I think we will take a break now. + +I must be going to my conference. So we will recess for just a moment. + +(Brief recess.) + +Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order. + +Mr. Jenner, if you will proceed. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir. + +Mr. Oswald, we have some data that indicates or confirms the fact that +Mr. Nixon was invited to Dallas in April of 1963, by the Southeast +Dallas Chamber of Commerce to receive the Good American Award, but +that at the last minute it was necessary for him to cancel his +attendance--he was unable to attend, and did not come to Dallas on that +occasion. There was some publicity in connection with the giving of the +award prior to the event. But I take it from your testimony that at +least you did not pursue with Marina or with Mr. Martin their fixing +the time of the event in which Marina, according to the information +given you, locked your brother Lee in the bathroom to prevent him from +any violence on Mr. Nixon. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may, with Mr. Dulles' approval, +interrupt you one more time for another statement. + +I recall when Mr. Nixon was coming to Dallas at the invitation of Mr. +Carlson and others to receive this award. + +However, Mr. Nixon did come to Dallas some time within 6 weeks prior to +November 22, 1963. The exact date I cannot fix, because I don't recall +the exact date. + +But it is my best recollection that he was there in that period of time. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, that may well be so. + +Our information indicates to the contrary--that he was in Dallas on the +21st of November 1963. + +Mr. McKENZIE. That is what I say, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You said several weeks prior. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I said some time within 6 weeks prior to November 22d. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, our information is that he was in Dallas on the 21st +of November 1963, and not prior to that time. + +But we will---- + +Mr. DULLES. I think there is a misunderstanding there. You are +technically correct. It was the day before. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I couldn't remember the exact date, Mr. Dulles, and I +wasn't going to be tied down to any exact date. + +Mr. DULLES. You are technically correct. + +Mr. McKENZIE. November 21 was before November 22. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, the inference of the 6 weeks---- + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, the reason I say 6 weeks--as I explained to +Mr. Dulles, I don't know exactly when it was, but I know it was prior +to November 22d, Dick Nixon was in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, Mr. Chairman, we will obtain that information and +make it part of the record. + +Now, Mr. Oswald, in view of what you have related with regard to this +particular event, I ask you this question: Would you please state why +you did not report this circumstance to any agency or agent of the U.S. +Government up to the time that you gave your diary to Mr. McKenzie and +he turned it over to the FBI? + +Mr. OSWALD. An assumption on my part at the time this was told to me +was that some Federal agents were aware of this. Nobody told me that +they were aware of it. I repeat, again, it was an assumption on my +part that somebody was perhaps aware of this, as they were, before I +was--aware of the alleged shot at General Walker of the same year. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Did you discuss this event with Mrs. Oswald, that is, your wife, Vada? + +Mr. OSWALD. Briefly I did, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when did you do that? + +Mr. OSWALD. Some time around the latter part of January 1964, at which +time---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. That is several weeks after you made this entry +in your diary, and after the event occurred? + +Mr. OSWALD. Two or three weeks after I made this entry in my diary +January 13, yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances that led you to discuss the +matter with her? + +Mr. OSWALD. My wife had read my diary, and she had come to this entry +on January 13, 1964, and she asked me to fill in the blanks and state +who it was, at which time I did. + +Mr. DULLES. Did I understand you to say earlier that your wife also +prepared a diary? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not. She had read my diary, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Until you retained Mr. McKenzie, had you retained counsel? + +Mr. OSWALD. I had consulted counsel. + +Mr. JENNER. And what counsel? + +Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Weldon Knight, of Denton, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you exhibited to Mr. Knight the diary we have been +discussing? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not aware of the diary we are discussing. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony you did not discuss this +particular event with Mr. Knight. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever exhibit your diary to Mr. Thorne? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss the existence of the diary with Mr. +Thorne? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Prior to the time you delivered the diary to Mr. McKenzie, +had you disclosed to anybody other than Mrs. Oswald, your wife Vada, +the existence of the diary? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. McKENZIE. To whom? + +Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Marina Oswald, approximately the first week of +February 1964, or January 1964--I advised her that I---- + +Mr. McKENZIE. You say approximately the first week of January or +February. You mean approximately the first week of February or the last +week of January? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--thank you--that I was writing down various +happenings that had occurred since November 22, 1964. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were in the process of preparing a memorandum, +really, rather than a diary, of past events? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Did you do any more than just tell her that you were preparing such a +statement or memorandum? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not have occasion, then, at that time to discuss +further with her the Richard M. Nixon matter? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Since we have referred to this document, Mr. Chairman, +could I pursue it, at least as to how it came into existence? + +Mr. DULLES. Do you propose to introduce it in evidence? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, I do. + +I propose now to qualify the diary which you so kindly produced +yesterday, Mr. McKenzie. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Certainly. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, yesterday morning your counsel, Mr. McKenzie, +delivered to me as an agent of the Commission a ringed notebook, which +you have before you, do you not? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that notebook still intact as it was when you +delivered it to me yesterday? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Does any part of that notebook contain any entries relating +to anything involving your brother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you note the particular pages and put a paper clip on +them, please? + +Would you read the first paragraph of the first page which has been +clipped? + +Mr. OSWALD. "Dated December 6, 1963, for the history of the past 2 +weeks as seen through my eyes, and heard with my ears, and felt with +my body, I write for future reference for myself and for the future +members of the family." + +Mr. JENNER. Would you read the last sentence of the last page you have +clipped? + +Mr. OSWALD. "Marina said she was shocked when the FBI told her this +story." + +Mr. JENNER. May I approach the witness, Mr. Chairman? + +Mr. DULLES. Please. + +What was "this story"? + +Mr. JENNER. May we consider that a question to the witness, please? + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. If I may read the entire entry dated January 19, 1964. + +Mr. JENNER. Is this entry in your handwriting? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it made contemporaneously with the event recorded? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was. + +Mr. JENNER. This event took place on Sunday, January 19, 1964? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you made an entry contemporaneously or shortly +thereafter? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. For what purpose? + +Mr. OSWALD. For the purpose of writing down a reference for myself and +for my family on all events that I could learn about in relation to +Lee's life. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, before the paragraph is read, if I may--is +there another entry in your handwriting on that page? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it the only other entry on that page? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it the entry of January--Sunday, January 13, 1964, +relative to Mr. Nixon about which you have already testified? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And which you have read in full into the record? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you are going to read for the purpose of the record +the balance of that page, are you not? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. OSWALD. "Sunday, January 19, 1964. Marina and the Martins had gone +to Kathy Ford's house in Richardson, when we arrived at the Martin's +house around 2 p.m. They returned approximately about 4:45 p.m. On the +way to the grocery, Jim said the FBI had asked Marina during the week +if she knew"---- + +Mr. JENNER. Is there a blank there? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I had omitted a word. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the word? + +Mr. OSWALD. "that Lee". + +Mr. JENNER. Was it an inadvertent omission? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, it was. + +Mr. JENNER. And the omission was what word? + +Mr. OSWALD. "If she knew Lee had"---- + +Mr. JENNER. You now have a specific recollection you intended to write +the word "Lee"? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +"If she knew Lee had tried to commit suicide while in Russia prior to +their marriage. She did not, and it was the first I knew about it. +Marina later confirmed this, and said that she had asked Lee two or +three times what was the cut on his wrist, pointing to the cut on his +left wrist. Lee would become very mad and tell her nothing. The FBI +read this in Marina's book." + +Mr. McKENZIE. "Read this in Marina's book." You misread there. "The FBI +read this in Lee's book." + +Mr. JENNER. That is correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +"Understand he had a date with another girl around 8 p.m. (This is in +Moscow.)" + +Mr. JENNER. Is that in parentheses? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. The words "this is in Moscow" are in parentheses? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +"And right before she was due to arrive, he cut his wrist. Marina said +she was 'shocked' when the FBI told her this story." + +Mr. JENNER. I will not question the witness further about that +entry--unless you wish to pursue it at the moment. + +Mr. DULLES. No, follow your own order. + +There is one question I would ask that relates to the past. That is +what you testified to just a moment before. This is with regard to +locking in the bathroom for a day. + +Did Marina indicate that that was for the purpose of keeping Lee away +from possibly Nixon, if he was to be there that day, or was it to cool +him down? Did you get any impression as to what the purpose was of the +locking in the bathroom? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly did. Her intentions as related +to me was to keep him from shooting at Mr. Nixon. + +Mr. JENNER. On that particular day, or on some future occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say on the particular day--pardon me. I +misunderstood the question. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I think he misunderstood the question. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Was it your impression that Mr. Nixon was to be in Dallas on that +particular day, and that that is the day that Marina locked him in the +bathroom? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she locking him in the bathroom to cool him off so he +would not attempt it when Mr. Nixon might be in town some later date? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was her intention, or my impression of her +intentions, that she locked him in the bathroom on that date, to keep +him on that date from shooting at Mr. Richard M. Nixon. + +Mr. JENNER. So your impression was this was an imminent event? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Or that she thought it was an imminent event? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, that, thank you. + +Mr. DULLES. That is all I have now. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony that this ringed notebook, +and in part a diary, is a record first of past events--that you +prepared it subsequently to the events recorded therein. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, start from the beginning, that is the first page, the +first paragraph of which you have read, in order to identify it. I +notice a date--December 6, 1963. Do you find it, sir? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the date on which you prepared at least the first +page or started this memorandum? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please take that memorandum or notebook and +identify each page that you wrote at the first sitting--that is, what +you first recorded in the book on the first occasion you wrote in it. + +Mr. OSWALD. On the eighth page, approximately midway down, in the +left-hand margin I have a date of 12-7. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Now, I take it, therefore, that your first entries were made--that +you made, covered the pages commencing with the page dated at the top +December 6, 1963, and proceeding consecutively to the eighth page, and +in the center of that page approximately, at the margin, there appears +the figures 12-7. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. You wrote all the intervening material at one sitting? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And the 12-7 refers, I take it, to December 7, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is the day following your having made the first +entries? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Which is December 6, 1963. + +Are all the pages that intervene in your handwriting? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may, and for the purpose of the +record, to help speed up the proceedings, I will state on behalf of +Mr. Oswald that all the pages of the diary which you have there in +front of you, and which should be and will be marked an exhibit to +the Commission's record, are in Mr. Oswald's handwriting, they were +written simultaneously on the date as shown in the diary, and were his +recollections of the event as it occurred on that date. Is that correct +Robert? + +Mr. JENNER. I appreciate your suggestion, Mr. McKenzie, but there are +some breaks that I would like to identify. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I have marked the document now as Commission Exhibit 323. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 323 for +identification.) + +Mr. DULLES. And you wish to ask that it be admitted in evidence? + +Mr. JENNER. If I may defer that for a moment. + +Are all of the pages of the diary which you have separated and clipped +together at my request in your handwriting? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, proceeding from the eighth page, which contains the +date entry December 7, 1963, would you please identify what you wrote +on the particular occasion--that is, December 7, 1963? + +I take it the balance of that page? + +Mr. OSWALD. The balance of that page, the following entire page, and +the first part of the next page. + +Mr. JENNER. Down to what? + +Mr. OSWALD. "for me to come to his office" and a date---- + +Mr. JENNER. Is the date 12-11-63? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. Are these pages numbered? + +Mr. JENNER. They are not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I think we should have them numbered at this time, if the +Commission would so desire, sir. We can number them--Robert can number +them at the bottom of the page consecutively all the way through, and +likewise number the exhibit. + +Mr. JENNER. I would like to number the photostat that we have rather +than to place any markings on the original. + +Mr. McKENZIE. That is fine. + +Mr. JENNER. Would it help you, Mr. Chairman, if I examined from the +seat beside you, so you can see the exhibit? + +The occasion next after December 7, 1963, when you made an entry in +your notebook, I take it, was on December 11, 1963. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And would you please indicate commencing with that entry in +the upper portion of the page how much--what portions of the notebook +you wrote on that occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. On the page referred to, from the date of 12-11-63, on the +11th page following that, I have an asterisk in the left-hand column. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you read the first line of that page? + +Mr. OSWALD. "Complete with Marina." + +Mr. JENNER. And the last line? + +Mr. OSWALD. "around 11 a.m., the first great shock of the day"---- + +Mr. JENNER. Just the last line. + +Mr. OSWALD. "also they were having a hard time locating". + +Mr. JENNER. Now, there is an asterisk in the left-hand margin? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Approximately the center of the page? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony that the entry you made +then on 11th of December 1963, commenced at the point that you +have that date in the margin, and runs to, throughout the pages +consecutively--down to the asterisk of the page you have now identified. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you make the entry that is opposite the asterisk, +and that follows the asterisk? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall the exact date, sir. I do recall stopping +at that period and making the balance of the entries at a later date +after December 11, 1963, and prior to January 13, 1964. + +Mr. DULLES. Were they all made at one time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. The post asterisk entries? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. From the asterisk until the completion of the +diary to the date of January 13, 1964, was made at one time. + +Mr. JENNER. And it recorded past events. It was not made +contemporaneously with the events recorded? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. So that the first entries in this notebook that are diary +entries in the sense that they are made contemporaneously with the +event, to immediately record the event, are those appearing on the last +page, consisting of two entries, one dated Sunday, January 13, 1964, +and one dated Sunday, January 19, 1964? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +I have noted an error in those dates to the extent that there is only 6 +days in between those two Sundays. One date is wrong. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean either January 13, 1964, is incorrect or Sunday, +January 19, 1964, is incorrect? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. It was an error on my part. And if I may refer to +a calendar, I will correct the dates. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that a '63 calendar you have there? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; this is a '64. + +I would correct the first date as appeared in my diary of Sunday, +January 13, 1964, to be corrected to January 12, 1964, and the second +date of January would be correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. So wherever in your testimony this morning you have +referred to the Sunday, January 13 date, that is to be corrected to +January 12, 1964? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of further identification of the exhibit, +and in the context of Mr. McKenzie's and my agreement to substitute a +photostatic copy for the original. I will undertake to number the pages +of the exhibit on the photostatic copy. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Would you like Robert to do that? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I would like to have him follow, so that the numbers +on the photostat correspond with the pages consecutively in the +original. + +As I number the pages, Mr. Oswald, would you follow me, so that the +page numbers I place on the exhibit are correct in that they are in +sequence with the original? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The first page I am marking No. 1. The next page, No. 2. +The next, No. 3. + +Would you observe each time that the photostat is a photostat of the +original? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am observing it. + +Mr. JENNER. Page 4 is next. + +Five is next. Six is next. Seven is next. Eight is next. Nine is +next. Ten is next. Eleven is next. Twelve is next. Thirteen is next. +Fourteen. Fifteen. Sixteen. Seventeen. Eighteen. Nineteen. Twenty. Now, +page 20 is the reverse side of the page numbered on its face 19, is it +not? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. It is an insertion to the +page that has not been numbered yet, page 21. + +Mr. JENNER. But isn't it a fact that the entry on the page now numbered +20 is on the reverse side of the page numbered on its face 19? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am sorry. You are correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. But the point you are making is that the entry on page now +numbered 20 relates to page 21? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +We will now mark page 21. Twenty-two. + +Mr. DULLES. What are you marking that insert as far as our copy is +concerned? + +Mr. JENNER. As page 20. + +Mr. DULLES. Wouldn't it be better to make it 20-A? + +Mr. JENNER. I thought from the record that I had made clear that page +number 20 was the reverse side of page numbered on its face 19. + +Mr. DULLES. All right. Just so you are clear. + +Mr. JENNER. Have we covered page 22? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Twenty-three. Twenty-four. Twenty-five. Twenty-six. +Twenty-seven. + +As I proceeded in numbering the photostat, you placed, did you not, in +your own handwriting--followed me and placed the same page numbers in +your own handwriting on the pages in question as you wrote the numbers +on them--the same pages--on the photostat? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, do the entries that you have made in the +notebook on pages 1 through 27 now identified represent your +recollection of the events recorded at the time that you recorded the +events? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they do. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you had an opportunity to review those entries since +they were made? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you reread any portions of any of these entries, other +than or in addition to those you read to the Commission this morning? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Chairman, I now offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit +No. 323 the pages of the notebook which have been identified by the +witness, and which have been numbered 1 through 27. + +Mr. DULLES. Exhibit No. 323 will be accepted. + +(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission +Exhibit No. 323 was received in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to direct your attention to page 5 of +your notebook. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. At that point you were recording the course of events on +what day? + +Mr. OSWALD. Friday, November 22, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. To orient you and the Commission, the entry to which I +refer, that is the paragraph, reads as follows. Follow me, please. + +"Mother and I talked briefly and after about 30 minutes we were taken +across the hall to where Marina and the two children were. (This was +the first I knew of the new baby.) A Mrs. Paine was also present. We +talked a little and shortly Mr. Paine--who the police had been talking +to, came out of the office and Mrs. Paine introduced us. I did not like +the appearance of Mr. Paine, nothing really to put my finger on, but I +just had a feeling. + +"I still do not know why or how"--what is that next word? + +Mr. OSWALD. "but". + +Mr. JENNER. "But Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this +affair. Shortly thereafter Mother, Marina, and the children and the +Paines left to go to the Paines' house in Irving, and I advised them I +would stay there and see them tomorrow." + +When you recorded "I would stay there" you mean remain in Dallas? What +did you mean? + +Mr. OSWALD. My full meaning there, sir, was that I would remain at the +Dallas police station, and take a hotel room in Dallas, and spend the +night. + +Mr. JENNER. Now---- + +Mr. DULLES. May I ask just one question there for clarity? It refers to +an office. Is that the office of the Dallas police? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. The Dallas police station? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it from this entry you had not heretofore ever met +either Mr. or Mrs. Paine? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And would you elaborate upon, please, your statement +recorded on December 6, 1963, that you did not like the appearance +of Mr. Paine "nothing really to put my finger on, but I just had a +feeling. I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine are +somehow involved in this affair." + +Mr. OSWALD. Well, I was introduced to Mr. Paine at the Dallas police +office on the night of November 22, 1963. His wife introduced us. His +handshake was very weak and what I might term a live fish handshake. + +Mr. JENNER. Live or dead? + +Mr. OSWALD. And his general appearance, his face, and most particularly +his eyes to me had what I would term a distant look to them, and that +he wasn't really looking at you when he was. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if you will, please, would you ask the +witness whether he meant a live fish or a cold dead fish. + +Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I believe I mean a live fish. A cold, dead fish would +be stiff. + +Mr. McKENZIE. All right. + +Mr. JENNER. We are seeking to obtain the basis upon which you made this +entry. + +Mr. OSWALD. It was Mr. Paine's general appearance and the manner in +which he held himself, and by this I mean the way he stood and the way +he looked at you, and you had that feeling, as I stated before, that he +was not really looking at you. + +Mr. DULLES. You say there that Mrs. Paine introduced Mr. Paine to you. +When had you previously made the acquaintance of Mrs. Paine--just +before this? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. On that same day? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And you record that in your memorandum, do you not, on a +previous page? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. The fact of the introduction? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do so. + +Mr. JENNER. I think the Commission would be interested further in +explaining your remark "I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and +Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair." What did you mean by +that? That is on page 6. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I just wanted to verify that this was still under +my date, original entry of December 6, 1963. + +At the time I wrote the statement, "I still do not know why or how, but +Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair." I meant by +this statement that I had gathered that after our meeting of November +22, 1963, at the Dallas police station, to the date of December 6, +1963, that Mr. Paine and Mrs. Paine were separated, and that I had +read approximately at this time--and I am not sure that I had read +this particular thing in the newspaper prior to December 6, 1963--but +I feel like I did--that in a Dallas paper it referred to an incident +at a Grand Prairie Rifle Range where some people had identified Lee +as being at this rifle range, and that on one occasion a man, and the +description was given in the newspaper, had handed Lee Harvey Oswald a +rifle over this fence where he was standing inside the rifle range. As +I read this description in the newspaper, I reached the conclusion from +that description that it was Mr. Paine. + +Mr. JENNER. Any other basis that you now recall upon which you +predicated the statement that, "Somehow Mr. and Mrs. Paine are involved +in this affair." + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; if the newspaper I read at that particular time +is dated after December 6, 1963, the statement that I just read a few +minutes ago, "I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine +are somehow involved in this affair"--I made that statement then based +on my meeting Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Dallas police station on Friday +night, November 22, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please describe Mr. Paine as he appeared +on that particular occasion--first, his physical appearance, and then +follow with how he was dressed. Give his height, weight, color of eyes +and hair, as you recall them. + +Mr. OSWALD. I recall Mr. Paine to be approximately 6 feet in height. I +do not recall the color of his hair. He is of slender build. Perhaps +I would establish his weight around 160 or 165 pounds. His facial +appearance was quite drawn--and this is a conclusion on my part, +because I had not met him before--he appeared to be quite drawn in the +face. + +His eyes, I would say, would have to me a hollow look. + +Mr. JENNER. What color were his eyes? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not know, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't presently recall? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. You made no note of it at the time? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. What was his complexion--ruddy, pale? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say his complexion would be ruddy complected. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he clean shaven? + +Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, he was, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. No mustache, no beard? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What else did you notice about his appearance? How did he +part his hair? Do you recall? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether he did part it? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I believe this to be correct--that I +never did get any higher than looking at Mr. Paine's eyes, and I do not +believe I looked at his hair or above his eyes at any time. + +Mr. JENNER. How long were you with Mr. Paine on that occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately five minutes. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you ever seen Mr. Paine subsequently thereto? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have. + +Mr. JENNER. On how many occasions? + +Mr. OSWALD. On one other occasion, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. When? + +Mr. OSWALD. This would be approximately a Sunday afternoon in the +middle of December 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be approximately a week after you made this +entry? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. In the presence of Mr. Jim H. Martin, and Mr. +John Thorne. We traveled from Mr. Martin's home to the Paines' house +in Irving to pick up Marina's and Lee's clothes that were still there. + +Mr. JENNER. Still at the Paines' home? + +Mr. OSWALD. Still at the Paines' home. I saw Mr. and Mrs. Paine again +on that day--I mean at that time. That was my second and only time I +have ever seen them. Mr. and Mrs. Paine helped gather up the belongings +of Marina and the children and Lee's personal belongings that were +still there. + +Mr. JENNER. To make it clear, Mr. Oswald, did Mr. Paine accompany you +with Mr. Martin and Mr. Thorne to the Paine home, or did you meet Mr. +Paine when you arrived there? + +Mr. OSWALD. We met Mr. Paine and Mrs. Paine on our arrival at their +home in Irving, Texas. + +Mr. JENNER. How long were you there? + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 45 minutes to an hour. + +Mr. JENNER. How was he clothed on that occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. In a sport shirt and a pair of slacks, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And how was he clothed on the occasion that you record here +on page 6? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe also at that time, sir, that he had a sport shirt +on and a pair of slacks, and perhaps a sport jacket or jacket of some +type. + +Mr. JENNER. Was his head covered on either occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. No. sir, it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you notice, if anything, as to whether he had +straight hair or a full head of hair on him? Was he bald? + +You have already said you don't recall the color of his hair, am I +correct on that? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +In referring to the second meeting of Mr. Paine and myself, in +reference to his hair, I would say his hair was practically a full set +of hair, dark and short. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say short, you mean cut short, or a crew cut? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, just cut short. + +Mr. JENNER. How do you describe your own head of hair, as to its cut? +Is it cut short? + +Mr. OSWALD. Presently, I would describe wearing mine at a medium +length, for myself. + +Mr. McKENZIE. How about Mr. Jenner's? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would describe his as being in medium length. + +Mr. JENNER. I think you are right. + +Mr. DULLES. May I ask one question there? + +Had you known prior to November 22d that Marina was living with Mrs. +Paine? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. DULLES. You had not known that before November 22d? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you know at the time you were introduced to Mr. Paine? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And you had become advised in that respect by whom? + +Mr. OSWALD. By Mrs. Paine. + +Mr. JENNER. Are those the only two occasions you have had any contact +with Mr. Paine? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you describe her, please? + +Mr. OSWALD. A tall woman, approximately 110 pounds--and by tall I mean +approximately 5 foot 11, or 6 feet in height. + +Mr. JENNER. Weighing only 110 pounds? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, very slender. A slender face, also--not a full +face. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say also, are you now referring to Mr. Paine? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was referring to my statement that Mrs. Paine +was slender, and also that she was slender in the face. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you. + +Mr. OSWALD. Long hair, I believe to be brown in color. + +Mr. JENNER. How did she do her hair, was it in braids? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I believe it was just hanging down long. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say long, how long? + +Mr. OSWALD. Shoulder height. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, would you accommodate us--not to do it now, +but at noontime, if you have the time, to read through, your diary +to the court reporter, because some of the writing I have difficulty +interpreting. The Commission would appreciate it if you would interpret +your own writing on the exhibit. + +Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. I understand that you want me to read the +entire diary, is that correct? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, to the court reporter--as part of the record, Mr. +Chairman. + +Mr. DULLES. You may proceed. + +Mr. JENNER. What kind of a student were you, Mr. Oswald? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe my average in school was--if I may, sir, ask +you--are you talking about my over-all average? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir, I seek only the over-all. + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say a C or C-plus, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with the scholarship in that respect of +your brother John? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not. I could, if you wish me to, make an +opinion on what I think it would be. + +Mr. JENNER. This opinion being based upon your attending school with +him, as you testified yesterday? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And discussions with him back and forth between the both of +you as to how you were getting along? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Common interest in your progress scholarshipwise? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What is your present recollection as to his scholarship? + +Mr. OSWALD. That would be a C-plus or a B. + +Mr. JENNER. A touch higher than yours? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have an opportunity during your lifetime to form a +like opinion as to the scholarship of your brother Lee? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was his scholarship? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say a C to a C-plus, in the same category that I +place myself. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald and Mr. McKenzie, Mr. Chairman, have furnished +us with the originals of a series of letters and postcards which Mr. +Oswald, the witness, received from his brother Lee Harvey Oswald. We +have prepared photostatic copies on a Xerox machine of each of those +letters, and each envelope relating to that letter. And in the case of +postcards the front and reverse side of postcards. + +We were further accommodated, by--yesterday afternoon following the +close of the session--by sitting down with Mr. Oswald and in his +presence comparing the photostatic copy of each document with the +original, the original being in the possession of Mr. Oswald. And I am +marking each of those documents with an exhibit number. + +Mr. DULLES. Could you give us, Mr. Jenner, the first and last dates, so +we have an idea of the period covered? + +I have a general idea, of course. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. Two of these items are not in exact sequence, but---- + +Mr. DULLES. Two have been introduced already, have they not? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, I think you are right, Mr. Dulles. + +Mr. JENNER. That is correct. A letter of November 8, 1959, introduced +in evidence yesterday. I don't recall what the second one was, but at +least---- + +Mr. DULLES. Were they marked at that time as exhibits? + +Mr. JENNER. That was marked as an exhibit. And Mr. Liebeler has it. + +The November 8 letter, Mr. Chairman, is marked Commission Exhibit No. +294, and it is in evidence. + +Mr. DULLES. There was only one letter, or were there two? + +Mr. JENNER. There was just one letter. I think, if you please, you have +reference to a telegram, which is Exhibit No. 293. + +Mr. DULLES. That is it--the telegram. + +Mr. JENNER. Being a telegram dated 14 June 1962. + +Mr. DULLES. And these other exhibits cover what period? + +Mr. JENNER. They commence--the first, Commission Exhibit No. 295, is +a letter of eight pages dated November 26, 1959, and concluding with +Exhibit No. 322, a letter of two pages dated March 16, 1963. + +Mr. DULLES. Were those all from Russia? + +Mr. JENNER. They were all from Russia, save the letter dated March 17, +1963, being Exhibit No. 322, a letter of two pages. All the others are +from Russia. + +Mr. DULLES. Where was that letter from--do you recall? + +Mr. JENNER. It is postmarked--the envelope "Lee H. Oswald, P.O. Box +2915, Dallas, Texas." + +And the cancellation stamp likewise says Dallas, Texas. + +The date is that which I have already recited. + +Mr. DULLES. That was after Lee Harvey's return from the Soviet Union? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, he returned in June of 1962. + +Mr. DULLES. And that letter is dated what? + +Mr. JENNER. March 17, 1963. + +Would you follow me, Mr. Oswald? In each instance, when we compared +the letters and the envelopes, it is a fact, is it not, Mr. Oswald, +that the letter in question was contained in the envelope of which we +have a photostatic copy--and was received by you intact? That is, the +envelope was sealed, and the letter content was in the envelope, that +you personally opened the envelope and removed the letter content? That +in each instance, the letter content is in the handwriting of your +brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, entirely, with the exception of Commission +Exhibit 299, which is a letter of three pages dated May 31, 1961, upon +the last page of which there is a paragraph in the handwriting of +Marina Oswald, written in the Russian language? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I take that to be Mrs. Marina Oswald's writing at +that time. + +Mr. JENNER. And there appears on that page following that paragraph +written in Russian what purports to be an English interpretation of it? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Furthermore, that in each instance the envelope and the +letter content is--are in the same condition now as they were when you +received them? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Except for opening. + +Mr. JENNER. Except for the opening of the envelope which was necessary +for you to do in order to remove the content. Is my statement correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. With this exception, sir. That a number of the letters were +not opened by me personally. By that, I mean my wife opened them when +she received the mail at the house. + +I have marked the chronological date on the front of them in the last +few days. + +Mr. JENNER. So that there appears on these exhibits in your handwriting +a date on the envelope and in some instances on the letter content? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Which you wrote thereon, and which was not on either the +envelope or the letter at the time it was received by you? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Those exhibit numbers--excuse me. There are three +postcards--Commission Exhibit No. 310, dated December 11, 1961, which +is a Christmas card, Commission Exhibit 319, which is a postcard dated +October 10, 1962, and Commission Exhibit 321, a postcard dated April +10, 1962. Each of those was received by you in due course, Mr. Oswald, +as you related to me yesterday. + +I want you to confirm this. And is in the handwriting of your brother, +Lee Harvey Oswald. + +And except for notations of dates which appear thereon or may appear +thereon in your handwriting, they are in the same condition now as +when you received them? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I wish you would--I want to exhibit to you the +postcard dated April 10, 1962, which is Commission Exhibit No. 321. + +Mr. DULLES. As I understand it, these letters have not yet been +formally introduced in evidence. + +Mr. JENNER. They have not, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Very well. + +I might add, Mr. McKenzie, that, of course, one does not know whether +those letters were opened by the authorities in the Soviet Union before +being forwarded. I think that ought to be on the record. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No. 321 I now hand you, Mr. Oswald. +There is a date appearing thereon which reads, according to my +interpretation 10--and then I cannot quite decipher it. + +Would you look at the original, please? + +Mr. DULLES. The European system of marking is different from the +American system. + +Mr. JENNER. That is what I seek to bring out, sir. + +Do you now have the original before you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you read the figures to which I point? The first is +10? + +Mr. OSWALD. 10/4/62. + +Mr. JENNER. Indicating what date? + +Mr. OSWALD. April 10, 1962, in accordance with the European system of +dating. + +Mr. JENNER. Of putting the day first, the month second, and the year +last? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether these letters were opened by cutting +or opened by unsealing? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe without exception, sir, looking at the originals, +that they were opened by unsealing, rather than cutting. + +Mr. DULLES. I was asking because it is sometimes possible, by modern +methods, to determine whether a letter has been opened and resealed, +and if the letter is cut, that can be done. + +If the letter has been torn open where the seal is, you cannot do +anything with it. You cannot always do this, but there are certain +techniques. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, did you have reference to when Robert +opened the letters? + +Mr. DULLES. Well, what I had reference to is to whether if the letters +were cut and not resealed, then there is a certain possibility of +ascertaining whether the letter has been previously opened by a censor, +and then resealed. I was just getting at that. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles is interested, I see, in whether the letters had +been censored in Russia before they arrived in the United States. + +Mr. DULLES. That was my point. + +Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of the witness on that subject further? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Let me state this for the record. When Robert Oswald or +his wife opened the letters, as you can plainly see from the letters +here in front of you, they were either opened by letter opener--a knife +or a letter opener, or just torn open. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, it is entirely possible and might even be +probable that the Commission would be interested in examining the +originals on this subject--that is, to determine through experts as to +whether the envelopes had been opened and censored, and the contents +censored, before being resealed, if they had been so opened, and +dispatched to the United States. And I take it that your inquiry was +directed towards that. + +Mr. DULLES. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of Mr. McKenzie, in the light of that fact, +as to whether these originals of these letters would be available to us +so that we may have expert examination of them for that purpose? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; I will make them available at any time that the +Commission so desires. + +And I would like further to say, Mr. Chairman, that it is my opinion, +based on a reading of these letters--and I feel that Robert Oswald +concurs in my opinion here--that many of the letters were censored, +because the letters actually have reference to the censor in many +instances. And I speak of that--the censor in the Soviet Union. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. I have not yet read the letters. + +Mr. JENNER. The photostats that we have of the letters will reveal +that to which Mr. McKenzie is now referring. We took the face of each +envelope and in most instances of the reverse side of the envelope. And +in each instance the front and reverse side of each postcard. + +Mr. DULLES. And in each case I believe we will have in our records, +will we not, the date when it was mailed and the date of receipt? + +Mr. JENNER. To the extent that is revealed by the face and reverse side +of the envelope; yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Because if you have a case where a letter takes four or +five days, longer than another letter, that may mean nothing, or it may +mean quite a good deal. + +Mr. McKENZIE. In some instances, Mr. Chairman, it took five days to +receive a letter from the Soviet Union to Fort Worth, Texas. + +Mr. DULLES. That is par for the course, I guess. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +But I might also add sometimes it takes five days for a letter to get +from downtown Dallas to the suburbs in Dallas, Texas. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr.---- + +Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir, if I may, I would like to say something to +my attorney. + +Mr. JENNER. Surely. + +Mr. DULLES. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. + +Proceed, Mr. Jenner. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the letter of September 10, 1961, please? +That is Commission Exhibit 305. + +Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. In addition--did anything accompany that letter in the way +of photographs? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, there was. + +Mr. JENNER. Is a reference made to those photographs in the letter? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you still have the photographs? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have them there before you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. And how many are there, and what do they depict? + +Mr. OSWALD. There is a total of three photographs depicting purportedly +pictures in Minsk, Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there any handwriting on the reverse side of any of +these exhibits? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; on two of the three photographs there is. + +Mr. JENNER. I will mark this Exhibit as Commission Exhibit 304, the +next as 304-A and the next as 304-B. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits 304 and +304-A and 304-B for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. The witness now has before him a photograph marked +Commission Exhibit 304, on the reverse side of which appears some +handwriting. + +Do you recognize that handwriting? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Whose is it? + +Mr. OSWALD. I recognize it to be Lee Harvey Oswald's. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you read it? + +Mr. OSWALD. "Trade Union Hall on the Main Street." + +Mr. JENNER. And on the opposite side on which this handwriting appears +is a picture of a public building? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. I turn your attention to the document marked Commission +Exhibit No. 304-A. On the reverse side of that does there appear some +handwriting? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting is it? + +Mr. OSWALD. I recognize that to be Lee Harvey Oswald's. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you read it, please? + +Mr. OSWALD. "A square in Minsk." + +Mr. JENNER. And on the opposite side is also depicted a public building? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 304-B, does the reverse side of that exhibit +contain any handwriting? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it does not. + +Mr. JENNER. The face of the exhibit, however, depicts a plaza with some +public buildings? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you replace those photographs, please, in the +envelope with the original? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you turn to the letter dated January 30, 1962, +being Commission Exhibit No. 314? + +Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there any contents accompanying this letter in +addition to the letter itself? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe it did contain, sir--since there is no reference +within the letter itself---- + +Mr. JENNER. It is your recollection? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is my recollection that it did contain two +photographs. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it not a fact, sir, that when you exhibited the original +of the letter, the original of the envelope, and removed the contents +yesterday afternoon in my presence, that the two photographs to which +you now refer were contained in the envelope? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Liebeler, would you give us those A and B numbers, +please? + +Mr. LIEBELER. 314-A and B. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits 314-A and +314-B, for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to Commission Exhibit 314-A, that +is a photograph, is it not? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there handwriting on the reverse side of that photograph? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the handwriting? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Whose is it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald's. + +Mr. JENNER. What does it say? + +Mr. OSWALD. "April 30, 1961. Marina--Lee." + +Mr. JENNER. Now, turn to the face of the exhibit, do you recognize the +persons depicted in that photograph? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Who are they? + +Mr. OSWALD. Left to right, Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina N. Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. And is the exhibit in the same condition it was when you +removed the exhibit from the envelope upon receipt of the envelope, +except for the exhibit number? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the other exhibit, Commission Exhibit No. +314-B? + +And does the reverse side of that exhibit contain some handwriting? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the handwriting? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Whose is it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald's. + +Mr. JENNER. What does it say? + +Mr. OSWALD. "Marina, wedding day, April 30, 1961." + +Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the face of the exhibit. Do you recognize +the person depicted on it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Who is it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that exhibit in the same condition now as it was when +you received it and removed it from the envelope in which it was +contained, being the letter dated January 30, 1962? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the series of letters +which I have identified, and which the witness has confirmed, and the +contents, being the now five photographs which have been identified, +as Commission Exhibits Nos. 295, being a letter of eight pages, dated +November 26, 1959; 296, a letter of one page--we don't have a more +accurate date than the summer of 1959; 297, a letter of one page, dated +December 17, 1959; 298, a letter of two pages, May 5, 1961; 299, a +letter of three pages, dated May 31, 1961. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me, Mr. Jenner, just a second. + +The letter that you have referred to as being dated December 17, 1959, +does not have a date on it. It's received December 17, 1959? + +Mr. JENNER. That is in the witness' handwriting. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes; in the witness' handwriting. + +Mr. JENNER. The letter itself is undated. + +Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. The words "received" and the figures December 17, 1959, are +written by you on the letter? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that in fact the date it was received here in +America by you? + +Mr. OSWALD. It was, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you for following me, Mr. McKenzie. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, Exhibit 299 is the letter which contains in +part the paragraph written in Russian which on its face purports to +have been a notation by Marina, which we have already identified. + +Exhibit 300 is a letter of two pages, dated June 26, 1961. + +Exhibit 301 is a letter of two pages dated July 14, 1961. + +Exhibit 302 is a letter of one page dated July 28, 1961. + +Exhibit 303 is a letter of two pages dated August 21, 1961. + +Exhibit 305 we have already identified. That is September 10, 1961, +the letter of three pages which contain the pictures of the public +buildings and plaza in Minsk, Russia. + +Exhibit 306 is a letter of two pages dated October 22, 1961. + +Exhibit 307 is a letter of three pages dated November 20, 1961. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me just a second, Mr. Jenner. Don't you have one +dated November 1, 1961? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, it is out of order. I will reach it in due course. I +am correct that there is a letter of three pages dated November 20, +1961? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 308 is a letter of two pages dated November 30, +1961. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 309 is a letter of two pages dated November 1, +1961. That is the one to which you have reference. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 310 is a Christmas card dated December 11, 1961. + +It is contained in an envelope, I believe. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir, it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Is my statement correct? + +Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 311 is a letter of two pages dated December 14, +1961. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 312 is a letter of one page dated December 20, 1961. + +Mr. McKENZIE. December 20, 1961? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Three pages? + +Mr. JENNER. One page. + +Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 313 is a letter of two pages dated January 5, 1962. + +Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. January 5, 1962. + +Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 314 is a letter of three pages which we have +identified, dated January 30, 1962, and contains the two photographs, +one of Marina on the wedding day and then one of both of them on their +wedding day. + +Exhibit 315 is a letter of three pages dated February 15, 1962. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 316 is a letter of two pages dated March 9, 1962. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 317 is a letter of two pages, dated April 12, 1962. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Again, on the letter of March 9, 1962, the date on that +letter is the date written by Robert Oswald the day he received that +letter. The letter itself is actually undated. But the envelope is +dated by Robert Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. That is correct, Mr. Oswald? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And is the envelope postmarked? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. And the postmark is---- + +Mr. OSWALD. March 9, 1962, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. + +Mr. DULLES. That is date of receipt? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 317 is a letter of two pages dated April 12, 1962. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 318 is a letter of two pages dated May 22, 1962. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 319 is the front and reverse side of a postcard +dated October 10, 1962. + +Mr. McKENZIE. No, sir. April 10, 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the postcard the witness---- + +Mr. McKENZIE. Has previously identified as being in the European +tradition of dating. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 320 is a letter of one page dated November 11, +1962. Or is that '61? Would you check me on that, please? + +Mr. McKENZIE. I don't find that. Is it a letter or a postcard? + +That is November 11. That should be November 17, 1962. The photocopy +did not pick up all of it. And if you would like for us, we will change +that to November 17. It should be November 17th. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you make that change, please, in ink. + +Mr. McKENZIE. That is Exhibit No. 320. + +Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No. 320, a letter of one page, the +original dated November 17th. What year? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Just November 17th. But the postmark shows it was dated +November 18, 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 321 is a postcard dated April 10, 1962. + +Mr. OSWALD. To which you have previously referred. + +Mr. JENNER. Have we got a duplication? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Are Exhibits 319 and 321 duplicates? + +Mr. McKENZIE. I would have to look at the exhibit. I have the original +here in front of me. + +Mr. JENNER. They are different exhibits. + +Mr. McKENZIE. This is Exhibit 321. + +The other one is this one you have here, and it is dated October 10, +1962. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. To make sure the record is clear, Mr. +Chairman--Exhibit No. 319, which is a postcard, is cancelled on its +face at Dallas on the 10th day of October 1962, and it reads on the +other side, "Dear Robert, for the new address you can write to Box +2915, Dallas, Texas. Also please stop by the house and collect any mail +which may have come in before the post office had a chance to change my +address to Dallas." And then in the center of the card "Lee", with two +X marks. Is that correct? + +Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, that is Exhibit 319. + +Now, Exhibit 321---- + +Mr. DULLES. Let me see. I would like to straighten that out. + +Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 321 is the postcard dated April 10, 1962. + +Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. I might say, Mr. Chairman, I had marked the exhibits +correctly. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And I concur in that remark. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 322 is a letter of two pages dated March 17, +1963. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Dated March 16, 1963. It is postmarked the 17th, but +dated March 16, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits, +Exhibits 295 through 322, both inclusive, the documents that have been +marked with the exhibit numbers so indicated, including the sub-exhibit +numbers on the photographs which have been heretofore identified. + +Mr. DULLES. They may be received. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits 295 through +322, inclusive, and received in evidence.) + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may, I would like to say something for +the purpose of the record. + +Robert Oswald has brought these exhibits voluntarily. They are at the +Commission's convenience at any time. We do not know whether or not +they have been censored in Russia, but we are confident that they were, +because some of the letters refer to the censor in Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. That will appear, Mr. Chairman, from the photostats of the +exhibits as offered in evidence. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mr. McKenzie. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. McKenzie, among the original postcards and letters +which you produced for us is a postcard dated January 13---- + +Mr. McKENZIE. January 10th. + +Mr. JENNER. January 10, 1963. And may I have that, please? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; you may. + +Mr. JENNER. That will be marked as Commission Exhibit No. 324. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 324 for +identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Does the witness have the original before him? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Examining Commission Exhibit No. 324, which purports to be +a postcard, it is in fact a postcard, is it not? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize the handwriting on the face and +reverse side of that postcard? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting is it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald's. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you receive that postcard in due course or about the +cancellation date appearing on the face of the card? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And that cancellation date is January 13, 1963, is it not? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. It is January 10, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. This photostat makes a 10 look like a 13. + +This postcard was written to you, sent to you by your brother, Lee +Harvey Oswald, thanking you for a Christmas gift, was it not? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And is the postcard in the same condition now as it was +when you received it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Exactly, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. +324 the document which we have so marked. + +Mr. DULLES. It may be received. + +(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission +Exhibit No. 324 was received in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. We will return, Mr. Oswald, to the period about which +inquiries were made of you by Representative Ford and Representative +Boggs yesterday. That is, you had testified, as you will recall, of +efforts on the part of your mother to reach your brother by telephone +in Russia when news reached America of his alleged defection. I am +merely seeking to orient you at the moment. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. In due course, you received a letter communication from +him, did you not? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Including the letter of November 8, 1959, about which I +questioned you yesterday. + +Now, I wish to proceed to the next letter, which is the letter of +November 26, 1959, a rather long letter. + +As a matter of fact, it consists of eight pages. + +Would you get that letter before you, please? + +Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. + +I have the letter before me now, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you will note from the letter that it purports to +be, and from its contents it is indicated that your brother Lee is +responding to correspondence that he had in turn received from you. + +I ask you this question first. + +As to all of these letters which you have now identified this morning, +or substantially all of them, had you been in correspondence with your +brother in the sense that you also wrote him? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you by any chance happen to retain a copy of, or copies +of any of the letters you sent him? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. So that at the moment we would have to call solely on your +recollection as to what you might have written during this period of +time while he was in Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. You made no copies of the letters yourself when you sent +them--you just sent an original? There was no copy? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, no copies were made. + +Mr. JENNER. I suggested that you might, during the evening, read the +letter of November 26th so as to refresh your recollection as to +whether you had written him posing questions to which he responded. +Have you had that opportunity? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not had that opportunity to read this +letter. + +Mr. JENNER. I would prefer to pass this letter, then, Mr. Chairman, +until the witness does have an opportunity to read it. Would you try +and do so at your first opportunity? + +Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. It won't take but a minute here to do it. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. DULLES. We will recess for lunch at this time. + +(Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +Afternoon Session + +TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED + + +The President's Commission reconvened at 1:15 p.m. + +Mr. DULLES. You may proceed, Mr. Jenner. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, I have asked you--may I inquire of you whether +during the noon hour recess you have read Commission Exhibit 295, which +is a letter of November 26, 1959, from your brother to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. And have you also read the letter that preceded that one, +to wit, the letter of November 8, 1959, which is to you from your +brother, which is Commission Exhibit No. 294? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Chairman, the letter of November 8, which is the +earlier of these two letters--this was written by Lee Harvey Oswald +shortly after he arrived in Moscow in 1959. In substance, he said in +the letter that he supposed his brother Robert, the witness here, did +not wish to speak of his decision, that is, of Lee Harvey Oswald's +decision to remain in the Soviet Union and apply for citizenship there, +since Robert would not be able--and now I quote--"to comprehend my +reasons"--that is Lee Harvey Oswald's reasons. "You really don't know +anything about me. Do you know for instance, that I have wanted to do +this for well over a year? Do you know that I speak a fair amount of +Russian, which I have been studying for months?" + +The letter also said that he would not leave the Soviet Union under +any conditions, and would never return to the United States, "which +is a country I hate." He made reference to the fact that he received +a telegram from Robert in which Robert had apparently said that he +thought Lee "was making a mistake." + +Now, directing your attention to the November 8 letter first, would you +please state your reaction when you read that letter? + +(At this point the letters of November 8, 1959 and November 26, 1959 +were physically set forth in the transcript of testimony. In order to +achieve consistency in the handling of the exhibits upon the printing +of the testimony, those letters are not reproduced in the printed +transcript. They are reproduced in the exhibit section as Commission +Exhibits Nos. 294 and 295.) + +Mr. OSWALD. I recall my reactions to this letter, sir. It was something +I more or less expected in general, since this was, more or less in +general what the newspapers had been publishing. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the only reason you make that remark--that you +had expected it in general solely because of what you read in the +newspapers, or had there been any other factor that led you to have +that expectation? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was no other factor that led be to believe +that anything like this was going to happen prior to the happening. +My reaction to the letter, as I have stated, was solely in general +expecting from what I read in the newspaper that the letter would be +something of this nature when I did hear from him. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you had any conversation prior thereto during your +lifetime and that of your brother Lee in which he expressed his views +of the character that he wrote in this letter of November 8, 1959? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I most certainly did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you ever discussed with him, in any conversation +between you and your brother Lee, with or without your brother John +present or your mother, in which his feeling toward or reaction to the +government of the United States had been discussed? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; at no time, as I stated yesterday, have we ever +discussed politics, and most assuredly I did not have any inclination +in any degree that anything of this nature was in his mind. + +Mr. JENNER. So the views expressed by your brother in the letter of +November 8 came to you as a complete surprise? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; with the qualification that this is what I +expected after reading the newspapers. + +Mr. DULLES. May I ask one question there. + +When your brother left, after that short stay following his service in +the Marine Corps, did you know that he was going to Russia--did he say +anything to you about going to Russia at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say to you as to his plans? + +Mr. OSWALD. That he was going to New Orleans, Louisiana, to visit my +Aunt Lillian. + +Mr. JENNER. Your Aunt Lillian whom? + +Mr. OSWALD. Murret. + +Mr. JENNER. The family you identified yesterday--the Murret branch of +your family? + +Mr. OSWALD. I don't recall identifying them. + +Mr. JENNER. There was one occasion yesterday. + +Mr. OSWALD. All right. Yes, sir; that is correct. And that he was---- + +Mr. JENNER. That is an Aunt on which side--your father's or mother's? + +Mr. OSWALD. My mother's side. And that he was going to visit with them, +and at the same time find a job in New Orleans, and make his home in +New Orleans, Louisiana. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he give you any indication at any time during his +stay--this was in Fort Worth? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. During his stay in Fort Worth, upon his return and +discharge from the service, and while he was there, that gave you any +indication whatsoever of any intention on his part to leave the country? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none whatsoever. + +Mr. JENNER. Whether he was going to go to Europe, Russia, or anywhere +else? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. The only information he gave me was that he was +going only to New Orleans, Louisiana, from Fort Worth, Texas. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you spend a good deal of time with him while he was in +Fort Worth, Texas, in this interim period? + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately one day out of the two or three days he was +there. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you suggesting that most of your contact with him +during this period was on one of those days, or that the total amount +of time that you spent with him during that period aggregated one day? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that I at least talked to him on the +telephone on one day, and then the next day he spent the day at our +home. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is the day that you went off hunting, which you +testified about yesterday? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And never during any of the contact that you had with him +did he imply or state directly that he had any contemplation of a trip +which would take him out of the United States? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. You didn't know about his having applied for a new passport? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not know he applied for any passport. + +Mr. JENNER. During the day that he visited you, did your mother visit +at your home on that day? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. + +Mr. JENNER. At any time during the period between his discharge from +the Marines and his arrival in Fort Worth, and his departure, was there +any occasion on which both you, your mother, and your brother Lee were +together? + +Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion between you at any time during +that period of the reason, if any special reason, for his discharge +from the Marine Corps, earlier than he might have been discharged in +normal course, which as I understand would have been in December of +that year? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, we had a brief discussion on that. + +Mr. JENNER. Who initiated it? + +Mr. OSWALD. I feel certain like I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And what did you do? Ask him--just tell us what you asked +him. And why you were curious, if you were. + +Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my memory, I asked him--because I was aware +of his approximate date of discharge, his regular date of discharge, +or release from the service, and I asked him why he was discharged or +released earlier than that date. And his reply was that mother had +written the Red Cross and requested that he be released earlier. + +Mr. JENNER. Written the Red Cross? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I also---- + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say why she had written requesting that he be +released earlier? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not to my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. He just said mother had written the Red Cross asking that +he be released earlier. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That is all he said? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't elaborate on that? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you didn't inquire of him beyond that? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. When had you last seen your mother prior to this occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. May I have his release date, please? + +Mr. LIEBELER. September 11, 1959. + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately three or four months earlier. + +Mr. JENNER. Three or four months. That would be sometime in May? + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately, yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. 1959? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you talked with her in the interim period? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had. + +Mr. JENNER. How long prior to his return to Fort Worth on September 11 +or 12, 1959, had you talked to her? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, could you give us an estimate, that is in terms of +whether it was weeks or several months? + +Mr. OSWALD. I can give an estimate of several months. + +Mr. JENNER. Several months? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Your mother was then residing in Fort Worth, was she not? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. Was she hospitalized at this period? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she was not. Not to my knowledge. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of her state of well being? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. During the four month period? + +Mr. OSWALD. Sir? During the four month period? + +Mr. JENNER. You say for three to four months prior to September 11, +you had not seen your mother, that for several months prior to that, +you had not talked with her. + +I take it from that that you were not aware of her well being, whether +she was in good health, poor health, or otherwise? + +Mr. OSWALD. During the approximate date of three or four months prior +to Lee's release from the service, I was aware that she did have an +accident at her place of employment there in Fort Worth, at which time, +if memory serves me correct, something fell on her, on her face, and +injured her nose. + +I was aware from conversations with her at that time that she was +consulting or going to various doctors. And she told me at that time---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Having reached that point--is that how you first +discovered that your mother had suffered an accident? You say she told +you. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And I take it, then, that you had not talked with her for +several months prior to September 11 nor seen her before sometime, or +later than sometime in April of 1959, that this telephone conversation +must have taken place several months prior to September 11. Am I +correct about that? + +Mr. OSWALD. It was not a telephone conversation, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You saw her? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In the month of April '59? + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately that date. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you visit her, or did she visit you? + +Mr. OSWALD. I saw her at her place of employment. + +Mr. JENNER. And how did that come about? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if I recited some +possibilities--that she called you and asked you to come to see her, +that you desired to inquire of her, see if she was all right, or was it +that you just happened to be in the downtown Fort Worth area, and you +stopped by to see her, knowing where she was employed? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe the latter would possibly be more accurate. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection at the moment? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. She was not employed at that time at the downtown +area of Fort Worth, but rather at a suburb store, Cox's Department +Store. + +Mr. JENNER. This is a shoe store? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, this is just a large department store, from +wearing apparel to toys, a full line store. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware she was employed there? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. How long--did you know then how long she had been employed +at Cox's Department Store? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware of the fact she was so employed? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not. + +Mr. DULLES. About how long was this after the accident, or was it after +the accident? + +Mr. OSWALD. My recollection of that, sir--this was shortly after the +accident. She was still employed there, even though I understand from +our conversation that day that she had been off for a while--I don't +know how long a period--and that she was still employed there. Because +this is where I did see her, at her counter in this department store. + +Mr. JENNER. On this occasion, when you stopped by to see her, she +related to you an accident she had suffered--that was the first news +you had of it? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You had not known she was ill or what her state of well +being was prior to that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. None that I remember, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Where is the Cox's Department Store located with respect to +your place of business? I am seeking now distance, and the convenience +of getting there. + +Mr. OSWALD. From my place of business at that time in Fort Worth this +was approximately four or five miles west. I might further state, sir, +it was approximately two miles from my home. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you come from your home to her place of business or +from work to her place of business? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe I went from home to her place of business. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this a week day, a working day? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I don't believe it was. + +Mr. JENNER. That is not for you. Was it for her? + +Mr. OSWALD. It was for her, sir, not for me. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, it was a Saturday. + +Mr. OSWALD. I would believe that would be correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And has this discussion served to refresh your recollection +or stimulate your recollection now as to why you went by to see her? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it has not. + +Mr. JENNER. May I ask you this, sir? + +When had you last seen your mother prior to this occasion that you +visited her? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir. I would say, as we said before, +several months. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. That would be several more months, back into the +winter time of 1959? + +Mr. OSWALD. '58, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes--'58. + +Well, would it be back in the winter of '58, say January? Or could it +have been? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not that long. We are talking, if I am correct, +sir, approximately April of 1959. January of 1958 would be well over a +year. It had not been that long. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, then--I had said January '59, and you said several +months. + +Now, several months prior to April of 1959, would be or might be as far +back as January of 1959, am I not correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it could be that far. + +Mr. JENNER. And your present recollection is that it might have been +that much of a period of time--sometime in January, 1959, to this +occasion in April of 1959 when you had--you visited her at Cox's +Department Store? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; or possibly even longer. + +Mr. JENNER. Possibly even longer than that. Back into 1958. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Could you give me your best recollection at the moment as +to the last time you saw your mother in the year 1958? + +Mr. OSWALD. I cannot recall any specific time during the year of 1958 +that I did see her. + +Mr. JENNER. Would it be if at all quite infrequent? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, quite infrequent. + +Mr. JENNER. This leads me to put this general question to you, Mr. +Oswald. + +I take it that for some period of time in that area of time--that is +'58, '59, and perhaps even back of that--your contact with your mother +was quite limited? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Over what period of time did that persist? Give us the +broad picture first. + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say, sir, quite frankly that the original occurred +prior to my joining the Marine Corps in 1952. + +Mr. JENNER. And persisted thereafter? + +Mr. OSWALD. Persisted thereafter that I saw her only very infrequently. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your joining the Marine Corps--was that stimulated in +any respect by your relations with your mother, or your mother's with +you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Partly, sir; it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you state that, please? + +Mr. OSWALD. At the end of the school year of 1952, which was +approximately May 29, 1952---- + +Mr. JENNER. You were then 17 years old, is that correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. 18 years old. I, of course, was still living at home. In +approximately the middle part of June 1962 a friend of mine in Fort +Worth and I decided to take a hitch-hiking trip to Florida. We left +Fort Worth in the middle of June, 1962, and we---- + +Mr. DULLES. '52? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. In June of 1952 we left Fort Worth and traveled +I believed as far as Gulfport, Mississippi. And this friend I was +with--he did have a defect from birth on one foot that was starting to +bother him. And we decided it was best to return to Fort Worth, by a +different route than we originally left Fort Worth. We went from Fort +Worth to Shreveport, New Orleans, and Gulfport, Mississippi. + +Our return was Gulfport, Mississippi, New Orleans, Houston, Big +Springs, Tex., and Fort Worth, Tex. + +At that time I stayed at his home, with his mother and himself. + +Mr. JENNER. Why? + +Mr. OSWALD. Because mother and I was having a disagreement. + +Mr. JENNER. About what? + +Mr. OSWALD. About whether or not I was old enough to start my own life +generally. + +Mr. JENNER. That is whether you would depart the family home and live +on your own? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and generally whether or not I had the right to +start my own life in the manner that I wanted to. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you unhappy with the manner and fashion of life that +you had led up to that moment? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not in the manner or fashion, sir. I objected quite +strongly to the apparent efforts of our mother to control me completely +in all respects. + +Mr. JENNER. Did that condition or relationship exist with respect to +your brother, John Pic? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say generally it would, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. It did rather than it would? + +Mr. OSWALD. That it did, yes, sir--thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. And was that a factor in his enlisting in the Coast Guard? + +Mr. OSWALD. It is not to my knowledge that it was. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it you and John, then, had had, if I may use my +own expression, difficulties in your relationships with your mother, +particularly with reference to what you gentlemen thought as you +reached age 18, as the right to be independent and lead your own lives? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you think that your brother, Lee Oswald, had the same +feeling, that may have affected his joining the Marines? + +Mr. OSWALD. Based on my own personal experience, sir, I would reach +that conclusion. + +Mr. DULLES. You would? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I would. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you. + +Did your mother know about this hitch-hiking trip, or did you just go +off on the trip? + +Mr. OSWALD. I just went off on the trip, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Without advising her? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you get in touch with her upon your return to Fort +Worth? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I would say this. I did attempt to call +her before I left Fort Worth on this trip, and there was no answer at +home. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now what led us back along this trail was the +conversation you had with your brother Lee when he was discharged from +the Marines on September 11, 1959, and his statement to you that he +had an early discharge because your mother had written a letter to the +Red Cross. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And then you saw her in April, and that was the last time +you saw her prior to seeing your brother on his discharge from the +Marines? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now---- + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there. + +Do you know whether your brother stimulated this letter from your +mother with regard to early discharge, or do you think she did this on +her own, or don't you know? + +Mr. OSWALD. It is my understanding, sir, that she had originated the +request to the Red Cross. + +Mr. JENNER. And that understanding is based on what? + +Mr. OSWALD. Just a general feeling that I had at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it induced also by discovering from your brother that +your mother had written a letter to the Red Cross? + +Mr. OSWALD. I am sure it was, sir. And I might add I pointed out to Lee +why did you accept this early discharge, since he only had a few months +more, I believe it was, to go. Because it had been my experience in the +service that when I ran across somebody who, for one reason or another, +was going to get out a little bit early, I understood that they perhaps +were subject to recall for that period at a later date, or something +along that line. And I thought it was unwise. + +Mr. JENNER. Is this what you said to him? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I pointed out--I felt like since it was to be +under the regular enlistment period very shortly thereafter, I believe +September 11, 1959, that it would have been the wise thing to stay in. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say to that? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You were living in Fort Worth, married, and still you were +having substantially little contact with your mother, is that correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you explain to the Commission the reasons for that, +the conditions which brought that about? + +Mr. OSWALD. After my marriage to Vada M. Oswald, my mother on a number +of occasions--I say a number--perhaps three or four occasions--made it +quite difficult for my wife and myself when we were in her presence at +her apartment there in Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, please, Mr. Oswald--when you say your mother made it +quite difficult, give us some examples. What do you mean by "made it +quite difficult"? + +Mr. OSWALD. Generally, sir, it was the continuation that, even though I +was married and apparently able to take care of myself and start my own +family, she certainly wanted to--my mother certainly wanted to--still +control my thinking, my actions, and my wife's actions. + +Mr. JENNER. Can you give us one specific example? + +Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I cannot recall any specific examples. + +Mr. JENNER. Indicate the nature of those incidents. + +Mr. DULLES. Had she objected to your marriage? + +Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe she did, sir. At least I do not recall any +time that she ever stated that, any objections to my marriage. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that she objected? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, to some extent I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with her about your becoming +married before you became married? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And did she--what views did she express in that connection? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that would be generally that I was leaving +her alone, that both Lee and John at this time were in the service, and +she would be alone, and that she would like for me to live with her, +that I would stay with her. + +Mr. JENNER. When was your marriage again, please? + +Mr. OSWALD. I have never stated it before, sir. It was in +November--November 20 or 21, 1956. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. JENNER. The question has been asked of you as to the date of your +marriage. + +Mr. OSWALD. This was in November 1956, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you been courting your present wife prior to that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your mother acquainted with her? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; she was. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she--did her objections to your marriage, in addition +to those you stated--were there any personalities in the sense of her +objecting to your fiance? + +Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling that there was any personality in +the sense of objection on her part, or lack of approval of your fiance? + +Mr. OSWALD. If I might say, sir, I feel sure there was, and in my mind +right now--I can think of really no one that she ever approved of to +the extent of my friend, either boys or girls. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that also true of your brother, John Pic? And I will +also ask you about Lee Harvey. + +Mr. OSWALD. John very seldom, if memory serves me correct, ever brought +any of his friends over to the house, to meet mother. + +Mr. JENNER. Presented them to mother, you mean? + +Mr. OSWALD. Presented them to mother. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that his choice? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say so now that I believe it would have been his +choice. + +Mr. JENNER. He preferred not to? + +Mr. OSWALD. This would be my assumption, that he preferred not to. + +Mr. JENNER. Not presenting his friends to your mother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you answer the same question as to Lee, as to whether +he brought his friends to your home? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe he did. He quite frequently played +around the house with friends there in the neighborhood. + +Mr. JENNER. They were children, however, in the immediate neighborhood? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. He is five years younger than you. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. He would have been 13 in 1952, this period we are +talking about. + +Mr. JENNER. We are interested in this matter of the antipathy existing +between you and John on the one hand and your mother on the other. +Had that gone on for sometime? In order that I don't violate the same +thing that I raise with you occasionally, let me take you back to the +military school days, or to Bethlehem Orphanage. Did a measure of +antipathy exist at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I don't believe it did. + +Mr. JENNER. When did it really arise in any marked degree? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe after her divorce from Mr. Ekdahl. + +Mr. JENNER. That was in June 1948. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And from the time that we moved to the Young +Street address in Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. At or about that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you refresh my recollection as to when that was? Was +that in 1948? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please indicate how that antipathy or that change +was evident? What change of attitude was there, either on the part of +you boys, or on her part, or on the part of all of you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps, sir, for the first time in any period, all of +us were together. And perhaps, sir--I say perhaps this would be +correct--she did not know myself and my older brother John at that +particular time to any extent. + +Mr. JENNER. You had been away at school pretty much? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. But you had been home for three months in the summertime? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. But still, searching my own mind, +I certainly felt this way at that time. And John and I were not +accustomed to her. Certainly I cannot speak for John. But for myself, +on that point, I would say we were not accustomed to her. We had +become--there again I say we--John and I--I feel like I certainly had +become more disciplined and used to being disciplined by men, and not +used to having a woman around the house. I believe this was perhaps my +feeling at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, if we can return to the events of April +1959, did your mother appear to you to have been injured? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did. + +Mr. JENNER. What evidence was there of her injury? + +Mr. OSWALD. There appeared to be a little swelling in the upper part of +the nose. + +Mr. JENNER. Any scratch or other skin break? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you form an opinion at that time as to whether her +injury was major or minor? + +Mr. OSWALD. I asked her about it, or she volunteered the information of +how the accident occurred, and that she had been seeing doctors, and so +forth. And I did recall her stating to me that she had been to either +two or three doctors, and none of them had said anything was wrong with +her, and then she was insisting that there was definitely something +wrong, and she was continuing to see other doctors. + +Mr. JENNER. Had that sort of thing occurred prior thereto, in which +your mother felt that she was ill and she went to physicians, and the +physicians indicated otherwise? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. She was not chronic in that respect? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not to my knowledge. + +Mr. DULLES. Was she hospitalized at any time in connection with this +injury? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Did she have to give up her work for a period of time, or +did she continue working? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe she did miss a short period of time when the +accident occurred. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. But she was at work on the day you visited her? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned that your brother was returning from +the service earlier than he was scheduled to return? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I don't believe I was. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned that he was returning at all at this +particular time--that is, on or about the 11th of September, 1959? + +Mr. OSWALD. If I may take a moment, please, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I was not aware that he was being released from +the service earlier. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you received any communication from him prior to his +return--that is a communication that was reasonably near the time of +his return? + +Mr. OSWALD. The only one that I have a record of, sir, is a letter +dated--postmarked June 6, 1959, at Santa Ana, California, addressed to +me at my Fort Worth address of 7313 Davenport, return address, Pfc. L. +H. Oswald, Santa Ana, California. The letter itself is undated. + +Mr. JENNER. You have made reference, Mr. Oswald, to a letter you +received in an envelope postmarked June 6, 1959, from your brother. You +have the original of that letter before you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, that letter--did you receive in addition to this +letter until September 11, 1959, any other letter from your brother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not that I can recall, sir, or that I have record of. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, this letter in the third paragraph reads, "Well, +pretty soon I will be getting out of the Corps, and I know what I want +to be and how I am going to be it, which I guess is the most important +thing in my life"--"in life." Have I read it correctly? + +Mr. OSWALD. You have, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection did I respond to the letter, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when your brother was mustered out, on or about +September 11, 1959, did you have a discussion with him with respect to +this subject matter--that is what he wanted to be in life, and how he +was going to go about it? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not--to this extent. He did, of course, +indicate to me that he wanted to go to New Orleans, Louisiana, and live +and find a job there, and he did not indicate what type of job or what +type of work he wanted to do. + +Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, Mr. Chairman, this letter +has been identified and is in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 296. + +How did you learn that your brother was in Fort Worth, upon his being +mustered out of the Marines? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, he called me on arrival at Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. That was the first notice or knowledge that you had that he +had been discharged? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And his call to you was the first notice or knowledge you +had that he was in Fort Worth? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. It necessarily follows, and I take it it is a fact, +that your mother had not called you to advise you that he was being +discharged or would be discharged at or about that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not that I can remember, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Might I ask you at this point whether your brother ever +talked to you about his experience in the Marines. Did he tell you +anything about that, give you any incidents? I think you only had one +day--that would have taken place on that one day, between the three or +four days between his return and going off again. + +Mr. JENNER. Or may I add, Mr. Chairman, any correspondence he had in +the Marines, and any leaves. + +Mr. DULLES. We have no letters, have we, from the witness? + +Mr. JENNER. No, but I thought there might possibly be some. + +Mr. DULLES. I don't want to interrupt, but it seemed to me to fit in at +this particular point. + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, other than general discussion, about the +Marine Corps. I recall--and I believe this was on his leave in 1958, +when we discussed this--I had asked him did he know any of my drill +instructors, and I at the time recalled a senior drilling instructor at +Camp Pendleton, by the name of Sgt. Cobie. And he stated he did not. +However, he did run across, while he was in boot camp, some other drill +instructor, but he could not recall his name, who stated he recalled +me, or asked him one day did he have a brother that had been in the +Marine Corps a few years before. He said yes, he had. And apparently +this man did remember me, because he asked was I the right guide in +that platoon. And my brother Lee did not know that I was. I do recall +that conversation. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any other conversation with him or any +correspondence from him in which the subject matter of his career in +the Marines was discussed, or to which allusion was made? + +Mr. OSWALD. I certainly received other letters during the course of +his enlistment in the United States Marine Corps. I do not recall any +specific instance that reflected what his opinion was of the Marine +Corps, nor that at any time I remember did he refer to any happenings +or incidents while he was in the Marine Corps that perhaps might upset +him, or might have made him happy. + +Mr. JENNER. Nothing either way? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Completely bland in that respect? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether any of those letters are available +now? Do you have those letters? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe I do not have those. I say I believe I +do not. I have looked for just everything that I could possibly find +on Lee's life, and letters and so forth, and I have not run across any +others. + +Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you that. You have made a thorough +search? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. DULLES. If you should find them, you will make them available to +us, will you not? + +Mr. OSWALD. Certainly, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you. + +Just one more question on that, if I may. I would gather that the +correspondence you had during his stay in Russia was more voluminous +than while he was in the Marine Corps, from what you tell me. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it certainly was. There was certainly a larger +flow of letters from him, and from me to him, at this time than there +was during his stay in the United States Marine Corps. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. So while he was in Russia, he wrote you considerably more +often, at least after the first year, I guess it was, or nine months, +than he had theretofore? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. If I might there again refer to the letters from +Russia received from Lee Harvey Oswald and placed in evidence before +this Commission, when he notified us in 1959 that he was no longer +going to write or contact us, and did not want us to contact him in any +way, it was until April of 1961 before I heard from him again, which +was, of course, a period of time after one year. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you written him in the meantime? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you know where he was in the meantime--that is, any +particular town or city in Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. DULLES. And you had the impression that he did not want you to +write to him at that time? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, he says that in the letters. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes--one of these letters I am about to examine him about +so states. + +That is correct, is it not? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, however, that in contrast, commencing with +the letter in 1961, April I believe you said it was--from that time +forward, there was, by comparison, a considerable number of letters, +and a larger volume of correspondence than you had ever had from your +brother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, there was a continuous flow. Realizing the period +that it would take to make a complete cycle of the exchange of one +letter to another, of approximately two weeks--the letters were quite +regular. + +Mr. JENNER. And this had not been the pattern even in prior years. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. When he was in the Marine Corps, or when you were in the +Marine Corps? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Confirmatory of that, Mr. Oswald, I note in Commission +Exhibit No. 296, is the last paragraph which reads, "I know I haven't +written in a long time. Please excuse me. Well, there really isn't +too much news here. But I would like to hear from you and the family. +Write soon. Your brother, Lee". I take it from that that there had +been--this was the first communication you had had from him, as he +says, in a long time. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Does your memory serve you sufficiently now to define more +clearly the period to which he refers as "a long time"? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say in between the leave in 1958, and his letter +received, postmarked in June 1959, I would not have received over two +or three letters. + +Mr. JENNER. His leave in '58 was when, again, please? + +Mr. OSWALD. I recall this to be in the early fall of the year--perhaps +September. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Directing your attention now back to the letter +of November 8, 1959, which is Commission Exhibit 294, I will ask you +this: Is this the first letter you received from him from Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it the first communication of any kind, at least +directly from or initially by him, that you had from him? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. This is, then, the first time you heard from him from the +day he departed to go to New Orleans, as he had stated to you, for the +purpose of finding employment? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. You testified yesterday that you responded to this +letter--that is, Commission Exhibit 294, dated November 8, 1959. Is +that correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. You were unable to recall particularly well yesterday your +letter in response to Commission Exhibit 294. Has the reading of the +letter of November 26, 1959, which is Commission Exhibit 295, and your +re-reading of the letter of November 8, Commission Exhibit 294, served +to refresh your recollection as to the contents of your letter which +you wrote in response to Commission Exhibit 294? + +Mr. OSWALD. To some degree, sir, it most certainly has. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you now, having had your recollection +refreshed, relate to us as near as may be, if you are able to do so, +your letter in response to your brother's letter, Commission Exhibit +294? + +Mr. OSWALD. Which was the letter of November 8--is that correct? + +Mr. JENNER. That is correct. + +Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, in my response to his +letter, I asked him why he went to Russia, and for what purpose he went +to Russia. And I believe, sir, that is to the best of my ability, in +the remembrance of my letter, that would be the only two questions that +I asked him. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, in the letter of November 8, he says, "Do you know, +for instance, that I have wanted to do this for well over a year"--that +is, go to Russia. I take it from your prior testimony that you had not +known, either well over a year or even for an instant, that he had any +intention of going to Russia. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Had the name Albert Schweitzer College ever been mentioned +by your brother Lee prior to this time--that is, let us say, prior to +the middle of September 1959? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. He also states in this letter of November 8--makes the +rhetorical question--"Do you know that I speak a fair amount of +Russian, which I have been studying for many months". Had that subject +matter ever come to your attention prior to his uttering it in the +letter of November 8? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it had not. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not know, up until this time, that your brother had +been studying Russian while in the Marines? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. And again if I may elaborate on that, I +was not aware that he ever studied any foreign language. + +Mr. DULLES. Did your brother ever talk to you about what he was reading +during this period? + +Mr. JENNER. Or at any time, during his school period? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. Of course, I have seen him read various books. +I never did see him read a book--unless the covers--or perhaps if I +picked it up--it didn't indicate anything about communism or socialism. +He did like to read. He read quite a bit. And by this, I have observed +him to read anything from funny books to novels, to westerns, the full +scope. He liked American history. I have seen him read American history +a great deal. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he a voracious reader? That is, did he read a great +deal, devote much attention to reading? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he was what I would term an assiduous reader. + +Mr. JENNER. I am directing your attention to his--oh, say, from age, +let's say, nine or ten to the time he enlisted in the Marines--maybe we +better go back a little bit more, since you were away. I would like to +cover his youth up to the time he enlisted in the Marines. Is that the +period of which you speak? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I speak of a later period--my visit to +New Orleans after I received my discharge from the Marine Corps. + +Mr. JENNER. And before he enlisted in the marines? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; before he enlisted in the Marine Corps. And of +his moving to Fort Worth. + +Mr. JENNER. Fix the time. + +Mr. OSWALD. With mother--in 1955. + +Mr. JENNER. On these occasions you observed him reading assiduously? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you had an opportunity, and you embraced it to some +extent, just out of curiosity if nothing else, of observing the +nature and character of the literature and the subject matter of the +literature he was reading? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is of the nature and the subject matter you already +stated? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. During any of that period, and any observation you ever +made whether then or prior thereto, had you noticed him or seen any +books--he uses the expression "Marxism", communism--or any books or +works, or pamphlets of that nature? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. I did not at any time observe him +reading or have in his possession any type of pamphlet or book, should +I say, of a political nature. + +Mr. JENNER. Even American politics? + +Mr. OSWALD. American politics, of course--American history, of course, +would go into some degree of American politics. + +Mr. JENNER. I think you are probably right. But other than American +history. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not observe him. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, your brother states in this letter of November 8, the +United States was a country that he hated. Taking the whole letter, we +would like to have you state what your reaction to the letter was when +you received it and read it, in view of the rather severe things he +says, and startling things he says in this letter. + +Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, refer to my testimony yesterday in relation +to this letter, and my reactions then, I thought more along that line. +I have not come up with any other conclusions where my thinking as +to my reaction at the time I received the letter--other than it was +something that I expected, due to what I had read in the newspapers +prior to receiving the letter of November 8, 1959. + +Mr. JENNER. Your shock, if I may call it such, had been conditioned---- + +Mr. OSWALD. To some degree it had; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, then, the letter, when you did receive it, +with these utterances in it, did not surprise you? + +Mr. OSWALD. I feel, perhaps, if anything would have surprised me +that did not appear, to my recollection, would be the statement "I +will never return to the United States, which is a country I hate," +particularly the latter part of that statement--"which is a country I +hate." + +Mr. JENNER. That did shock you despite your having read the newspaper +clippings or articles? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I feel certain that it did. + +Mr. JENNER. And in your response to your brother's letter, did you +advert to that particular portion of his letter? To the best of your +recollection? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--I was just making a note on that. I didn't +realize you would ask me that so soon. I do believe I asked him why he +hated the United States. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, have you given us--exhausted your recollection as +to the content of the letter you wrote in response to the letter of +November 8, Commission Exhibit 294? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I feel I have. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, now, let us turn, if we might, to Letter No. 26, +which is Exhibit 295, an eight-page letter. + +Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, to summarize this letter, if I may, for +you, it is an eight-page letter. Lee Harvey Oswald sets forth in it +extensively his philosophies, what they purport to be as of that time, +the reasons why he has decided to defect to the Soviet Union. + +He complained about the economic system in the United States. + +Mr. DULLES. System? + +Mr. JENNER. System--which he stated exploited all of its workers. + +He complained of segregation and unemployment, and automation in the +United States. + +He stressed disapproval of American foreign policy, which he +characterized as being one of imperialism. In framework, it is framed +as a response partly to some questions that our present witness has +posed in a letter, which Mr. Robert Oswald had written in response +to the letter of November 8, such as a question as to why Lee Harvey +Oswald and his fellow workers and communists would like to see the +present capitalist system of the United States overthrown--he having +made an indication to the witness in that respect. + +Apparently in Robert's letter to Lee, he had couched it in terms of +suggesting that apparently Lee Harvey Oswald thought he might have +some advantage economically if he went to Russia, and Lee Harvey +Oswald responded, "So you speak of advantages. Do you think that is +why I am here, for personal material advantages? Happiness is not +based on one's self, does not consist of a small home, of taking and +getting. Happiness is taking part in a struggle where there is no +borderline between one's own personal world and the world in general. +I never believed I would find more material advantages at this stage +of development in the Soviet Union than I might have had in the United +States." + +Mr. McKENZIE. At this point, Mr. Chairman, I might also add, in +connection with what Mr. Jenner has stated about this letter, that the +letter appears, in answering questions that Robert may have posed in a +previous letter to Lee Harvey Oswald--it appears to have been lifted in +some respects out of a communist text, and it even appears to me--and +this is pure supposition, that it could possibly have been written by +someone else with Lee Harvey Oswald coming back in and adding other +things to it. It is the longest letter received, consisting of some +eight pages. A careful reading of the letter will show only one or two +misspelled words, whereas in the other letters there are a number of +misspelled words. + +And I don't know what that adds or detracts from the record. But I do +feel that there is a difference in the letters as you read all of them +put together. + +Mr. DULLES. I am glad you called that to our attention. It is an +interesting observation. + +Mr. OSWALD. And I would like to, if I may, point out something I +observed in between the letter of November 8, 1959, and the letter of +November 26, 1959. + +In the letter of November 8, 1959, towards the last paragraph on the +last page, I quote, "I really don't see what we could talk about. If +you want to send me money, that I can use. But I do not expect to be +able to pay it back." + +I now refer to the letter of November 26, 1959, on the last page, the +second last paragraph, "I have no money problems at all"--underlined. + +"My situation was not really as stable then as it is now. I have no +troubles at all now along that line." + +Mr. McKENZIE. And, furthermore, he had moved from Room 233 in the +Metropole Hotel to Room 201 in the Metropole Hotel. And marks on the +letter of November 26th, "Note new room number." + +Mr. DULLES. Could I get into the record here, just for +clarification--when was this written in relation to his arrival in the +Soviet Union? Do we have that on the record? Was it a month after? Was +it before the other incident that has been described for the record, +with regard to---- + +Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir; I believe I can answer that. + +Mr. JENNER. I didn't want to hazard a guess. If you know, will you +please state it? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe Lee, as a matter of record, did arrive in the +Soviet Union on October 13, 1959. + +Mr. DULLES. Is it written then, roughly, a little less than a month +and--a little over a month after his arrival--these two letters +referred to? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. I intended to draw your attention to that which you have +already mentioned--that is, in the letter of November 8 he indicated +that he would be pleased if you would send him some funds, whereas on +the last page of the letter of November 26th he advises you that as far +as funds are concerned--he is in good shape. + +Mr. DULLES. And both of these letters were written, as I recall, before +he was advised that he could not stay on in the Soviet Union the first +time? + +Mr. JENNER. That is correct, sir. They are written before he went to +Minsk, as well. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you sent him any funds in the interim period? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Referring to my testimony yesterday--at which time I replied to his +letter of November 8, 1959, on his request for any money that I might +send him, I stated to him I would gladly send him the necessary money +for his return to the United States, and for that reason only. + +I did not enclose any money in my answer. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, that is an interesting factor about which I would like +to inquire of you; also, as to its implication. + +Later, your brother, as the correspondence we have now introduced in +evidence discloses, desired to return to the United States. And he was +having, according to the correspondence, some problem in raising the +necessary funds to return to the United States. + +Did he at any time write you requesting that you honor your letter in +response to his letter of November 8th in which you said you would +gladly send him money to return to the United States? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not request it directly. He had certainly +indicated, as his letters do indicate, that he was having a little +difficulty in raising the necessary funds to return to the United +States. And I, in my reply to that letter, volunteered to raise the +necessary funds to bring his wife and himself to the United States. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you identify the particular letter to which you now +refer? + +Mr. OSWALD. In reply to your question, sir, I am referring to the +letter of February 15, 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. Which, for the record, is Commission Exhibit 315. + +Did you respond to that letter and offer to advance to him the funds +necessary to bring about his return to the United States? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. And I also included an offer for him to +stay with us on his return to the United States, he and his family, +for any length of time that they so desired, until he was able to get +settled himself. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever receive from him a letter in which he +responded directly to your offer to advance funds? + +Perhaps I will put it this way. Have you produced all of the letters +that you received from him while he was in Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge this is all of the letters I received from +him. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you make it a practice during this period to keep, +intentionally and deliberately keep, all letters that you received from +him? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that was my intention. + +Mr. JENNER. To the best of your knowledge you have produced all of +those letters to the Commission? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever report to your brother that it would be +necessary for you to make a loan on your automobile in order to advance +any funds to him? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Including particularly the $200 that you advanced to him +when he returned in June of 1962? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you become aware at any time prior to November 22, +1963, that he made a representation to the New York welfare authorities +that it would be necessary for you to make a loan on your automobile to +advance the $200? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion of that subject by him with you +when he returned to Fort Worth and lived in your home, or thereafter? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. This is the first knowledge I have of such a +report. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Now, returning to the letter of November 26--and keeping in mind, also, +the letter--let's just stay with the letter of November 26th. + +Prior to the time of the receipt of that letter, had your brother Lee +ever in your presence uttered thoughts of that nature, or even spoken +to you any thoughts of the nature contained in the letter of November +26th with respect to the United States, its economic system, Communist +Russia, or countries of that character? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was your reaction to the letter of November 26, +particularly those features of it dealing with his attitudes towards +the United States and its political and economic and social system? + +Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I remember somewhat vividly my reply to him--my reply +to his letter---- + +Mr. JENNER. You did reply to the letter of November 26th? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please state what your reply was? + +Mr. OSWALD. I did reply to the letter of November 26, 1959, and it +was--and I believe until this day remains to be the longest letter I +ever wrote. + +Mr. JENNER. All right--tell us about it. + +Mr. OSWALD. I answered all the questions as to--if I may refer to the +first question. + +"Do you remember the time you told me about the efforts of your milk +company to form a union? Try to see why workers must form unions +against employers in the United States." + +I recall I did reply to that statement. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you say? + +Mr. OSWALD. It was my opinion--and I am not anti-union or pro-union. I +believe it should be taken on the basis of the individual companies. +It was my opinion that I expressed to him at that time that in this +country, the employees did have a right to vote yes or no whether or +not they wanted a union, and in this particular instance, the union was +voted out. + +Mr. DULLES. Could we just have a moment's pause? + +(Brief recess.) + +Mr. DULLES. Will you proceed? + +Is it all right to proceed? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; please. + +Mr. JENNER. You were reciting what you said in your letter of response +to the letter of November 26. + +Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir, if I may pause a moment to locate the +second question or some statement that perhaps I recall referring to +directly in my reply--I recall replying to the statement that was, +that is contained, on the second page of the letter of November 26, +to the latter part of this statement that I will quote from: "See the +segregation, see the unemployment and what automation is. Remember how +you were laid off at Convair?" + +I am referring now to the last question of "Remember how you were laid +off at Convair?" + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe I pointed out to him at that time that this +was something I was aware of when I accepted the job at Convair in +Fort Worth, Texas. It was a condition, perhaps an unspoken condition, +because it was a government job in that when I was laid off, I did not +have to go only to the government to look for employment but I was able +to secure the type of employment that I was most interested in at that +time or that he had a variety to choose from and that no one would say +to me that, "You work here or there." + +Mr. JENNER. Did you experience any bitterness in being laid off at +Convair? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Resentful? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction? + +Mr. OSWALD. My reaction since I have been laid off at Convair and when +I was laid off at Convair I felt like it was the best thing that ever +happened to me. + +Mr. JENNER. When did that event take place? + +Mr. OSWALD. In August, 1957, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Proceed with your recollection of your reply to this letter. + +Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, continue to answer something along the +question of how I felt or reacted to my layoff at Convair; the reason +why I recall the date is because my daughter was born two or three days +after I was laid off, and I knew I was going to be laid off before she +was born and I did not tell my wife and I recall that quite vividly. + +Thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. I think I will ask you an additional question about that, +if I may, please. + +Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion, at least in Lee's presence, +regarding your being laid off at Convair and your attitude with respect +thereto. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. And where was he--let's see, 1957, he was in the Marines +then. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it then sometime along the line you had advised him +that you were no longer with Convair. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I feel certain like I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Perhaps you wrote him to that effect or you told him about +it when he was on leave in 1958. + +Mr. OSWALD. I would feel like perhaps I wrote him about it. + +Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your recollection did you indicate any +resentment or bitterness in that regard? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. As I have never been resentful to that or bitter +about it. + +Mr. JENNER. So that at least, as far as you can recall, any statement +you made or any attitude you have with respect to your layoff which +might have come to his attention, did not form a basis for his +predicating the Convair comment, on which he might have predicated the +Convair comment, in his letter of November 26? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed. + +Mr. OSWALD. I also---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, if I asked you a similar line of questions with +respect to the union question would your answer be the same? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; It certainly would. + +Mr. JENNER. You never expressed any dislike of unions. You never +expressed to him, or in his presence, or members of your family, views +that unions were exploited? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +By the way, had there been any discussion in the course of your youth, +as you boys grew up, expressions in your family of any of these +attitudes that he is expressing in his letter of November 8 and his +letter of November 26? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. To my knowledge there was never any type of +discussion that would reflect any of the statements or questions that +he wrote in his letter of November 26, 1959. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say to the extent there were discussions among +you, and your family life, that the contrary was expressed? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any discussions, sir, but if there was any +discussion it would have been to the contrary. + +Mr. JENNER. Your family was always a typical, loyal American family? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That is, loyal to the Government of the United States and +you thought well of it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. When I say, you, I mean all of the members of your family +as far as you knew? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Proceed with your recollection of your response. + +Mr. OSWALD. I refer to his statement in the letter of November 26 on +the second page, "I can still see Japan and the Philippines and their +puppet governments. More important, I can see the Americans in uniform, +men who were there because they were drafted or because they were +adventurers or unemployed in civilian life." + +I referred to my own volunteering in the United States Marine Corps at +that time, and I felt that nothing he pointed out there applied to my +case, and I felt quite a few other men felt as I did, as to the reasons +behind their joining the United States service. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you expressed any dissatisfaction to him with your tour +in the Marines, or was that subject discussed in family councils or +visits on his part to Fort Worth? + +Mr. McKENZIE. May I for just a moment? + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. OSWALD. Would you repeat the question, I believe I had it; I want +to be sure of it. + +(The question was read.) + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not believe that at any time we discussed it. We might +have mentioned my tour in the United States Marine Corps. He was very +proud of my service record and it would so indicate that I conducted +myself in the best tradition of the United States Marine Corps; not +that I was any lily white, but I was never in any serious trouble and I +progressed in rank in keeping with the period that I was in the United +States Marine Corps. + +Mr. JENNER. Had that thought been expressed, or at least that flavor +left, with the members of your family? + +Mr. OSWALD. I feel that it was, particularly to Lee, because I---- + +Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that, please; we are interested in +that. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Because I feel very surely that the reason that +Lee joined the United States Marine Corps was because of my service in +the United States Marine Corps and he wanted to follow---- + +Mr. JENNER. And your reaction to it had been communicated by you to him? + +Mr. OSWALD. I feel like it was, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Many witnesses have a habit that you have when you feel +like it was. Do you mean that you actually conveyed that thought to him? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. OSWALD. Thank you. + +I believe I was stating that I believe that the reason that Lee joined +the United States Marine Corps was to follow in my footsteps, in that +same service, and frankly I believe that at that time in earlier years +and later years that he looked up to me, not only in that respect, but +that eventually he wanted to follow in my footsteps. + +I would say within the family relation that Lee and I were closer than +Lee and mother or Lee and John during our entire lifetime. That if +there was something that he was going to discuss with anybody, or say +to anybody, within the family I would be the one that he would discuss +it with. + +I refer to his statement on the second page of the letter of November +26, 1959, "I will ask you a question, Robert, what do you support the +American government for? What is the ideal you put forward. Do not say +freedom because freedom is a word used by all people through all of +time." + +I did refer to the word "freedom" and I recall stating to him that the +word "freedom" to me was something that was earned and not handed down. + +I refer to the third page of the letter of November 26, 1959, and the +brief statement, "America is a dying country." + +I replied to him that perhaps, and I believe some great man said this +statement at one time or the other, I do not recall who, that we were a +sleeping giant, and that we were coming awake. + +This was, of course, in reference to the Communist world. + +Mr. JENNER. This was something you said in your letter? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. DULLES. May I ask what is the date of this letter? + +Mr. JENNER. It is in response to the letter of November 26. + +Mr. DULLES. November 26, yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. I refer to the bottom of the page of the letter of November +26, "So you speak of advantages. Do you think that is why I am here for +personal material advantages, happiness is not based on oneself, it +does not consist of a small home of taking and getting." + +I recall my reply to this series of questions as being--as to having +that right to seek for oneself his own personal desires to the extent +that the material advantages were something of a secondary nature, and +was something of a reward for his efforts. + +Mr. JENNER. While the witness is looking further, Mr. Chairman, this +is a little tedious, but as counsel for the Commission, I suggest +its importance and relevancy in that, if nothing else, it serves to +demonstrate the response of the witness to the letter indicating the +attitude of the Oswald family on these subjects and isolating these +views to Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. DULLES. I think this is important, and the more I hear of this +letter the more I get the impression that there was some help given in +writing this letter. + +Mr. JENNER. That is why I am spending so much time on it. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. With apologies to you, Mr. McKenzie, that is the only way +we can go at it because we don't have the actual response itself. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I commend you on the way that you are +conducting this interrogation. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, under no circumstances speculate on what +you wrote in answer to these letters. State to the best of your +recollection only what you did write, if you recall. + +If you can't recall tell Mr. Jenner so. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, this is what I have been doing, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. In view of the importance of this letter of November 26 and +certain other of these letters, as Chairman and in view of the absence +of a number of my colleagues today for unavoidable reasons, I think it +might be well to insert the entire letter in the record and possibly +certain other letters on which you are going to interrogate the witness. + +You see no objection? + +Mr. McKENZIE. None whatsoever, Mr. Chairman. + +Mr. DULLES. I have in mind that other members of the Commission may not +be able to read all of the exhibits but I think they should read these +letters on which we are interrogating the witness. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. In order to get the full purport, flavor of this particular +line of interrogation. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I couldn't concur more, Mr. Dulles. + +Mr. DULLES. We will leave it then to your discretion with Mr. Rankin to +decide what letters should go in, in connection with his testimony. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I might add in that regard, Mr. Chairman, that I have +no objection, whatsoever to any or all of the letters going into the +record. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. They are already in the record. But you mean set forth in +full in the record. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I would mark right now the spot in the record following +the Chairman's remarks and my concurrence and, of course, Mr. Jenner's +suggestion that the letter be in its entirety placed in the record, I +would mark that place now so that it could go in at this spot. + +Mr. JENNER. Also the letter of November 8. And November 26 letter. + +Mr. JENNER. Proceed, Mr. Oswald. + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any other statements that I would have +replied to, or did reply to, in my reply to his letter of November 26, +1959. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. + +Now, did you receive any direct response to your letter, and your next +letter is Commission Exhibit No. 296, sometime during the summer of +1959, it is a short one-page letter. + +Mr. OSWALD. This is December, 1959, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. No, it is in the summer of 1959, isn't it, or is that the +one-page letter which you had written December 17, 1959. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that the next letter you received from your brother? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there any reference in that letter to the response you +made to the November 26 letter? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. There is not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you receive any subsequent letter in which he made any +direct response to your long letter which you wrote him in response to +the letter of November 26? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not, and if I might say I wrote earlier and +as a reminder to myself that I was concerned at the time I received the +letter of December 17, 1959. + +Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit 297. + +Mr. OSWALD. That Lee did not have time to receive my reply to his +letter of November 26, 1959. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Then the next letter you received, at least in the series you have +produced, is May 5, 1961, a two-page letter, Commission Exhibit 298. + +Mr. OSWALD. Could I have that date again, please, sir? + +Mr. JENNER. May 5, 1961. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He makes no response in that letter to your response to his +letter of November 26. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he does not. Perhaps, sir, the only way that I can +be aware that he received my letter in reply to November 26 letter, to +his letter of November 26, 1959, I did enclose one photograph of my +daughter Cathy Marie Oswald at the age of 2 years old in that letter. + +Mr. JENNER. In your response to his letter of November 26? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; and at a later date Lee was to tell me that he +did keep this photograph, so he did receive my letter. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you repeat what you just said, sir, or would you read +it, Mr. Reporter? + +(The reporter read the answer.) + +Mr. JENNER. You said Lee was to tell you, did you mean by that +expression that he actually acknowledged receipt of the photograph? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did. + +Mr. JENNER. Which leads you to believe necessarily then that he +received your response to his letter of November 26. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he state that he had received that photograph in a +letter that he wrote you or was that orally after he returned to the +United States? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe this was orally, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. After he returned to the United States? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, returning to his short stay at Fort Worth upon his +being discharged from the Marines, what do you recall, if anything, of +any discussion respecting his financial status at that time, that is +whether he was in funds and if so, what volume of funds. + +Mr. OSWALD. I was not aware of his financial situation at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it discussed? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did any member of the family, during that period of time, +ever discuss with you, having in turn discussed that subject matter +with Lee? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have a conversation with your mother prior to +November 22, 1963 respecting Lee's financial status at the period of +time when he was immediately--right at the time he was discharged from +the Marines? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I do not remember one. + +Mr. JENNER. So that up to November 22, 1963, there was never any +discussion in which you participated or which you overheard on that +subject? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, with respect to the remaining series of letters, were +you ever advised while your brother Lee was in Russia how much money he +was given or earned? + +Mr. OSWALD. While he was---- + +Mr. JENNER. Or he received? + +Mr. OSWALD. While he was in Russia employed? + +Mr. JENNER. While he was in Russia. + +Mr. OSWALD. While he was in Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. Either from his employment or by gift. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is a reply in one of these letters that +I received from Lee from Russia stating how much he was making while +employed in Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. The letter will, of course, be the best evidence of that. +Did he say it in terms of dollars or in terms of rubles, what is your +recollection? + +Mr. OSWALD. In both, sir. I believe he stated it in the words rubles +and in parentheses in the amount of American dollars. + +Mr. JENNER. I see, we will find that out. + +Mr. OSWALD. And I believe on a monthly basis. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever write you as to whether he had received any +money by way of gift from any agency in Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I respectfully submit that the letters +themselves would be the best evidence. + +Mr. JENNER. You are undoubtedly correct and I will desist. + +Did you have any discussion with him on that subject after he returned +from Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Or on the subject of his earnings in Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you receive any packages or gifts from Russia while +your brother was there? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you receive? + +Mr. OSWALD. Well---- + +Mr. JENNER. And give the approximate times. + +Mr. OSWALD. There again, sir, there is a letter from Lee in Russia +stating that he had sent a gift or gifts to us at my residence in +Fort Worth, Tex. I recall that on two occasions we received gifts +from Russia at my address in Fort Worth, Tex. I believe the first one +consisted of Russian cigarettes, Russian candy, six place mats or six +napkins that Marina had embroidered herself. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Or at least what they told you Marina had embroidered. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And also a Russian wooden doll, the type that +pops open in the middle and has a smaller doll on the inside and so +forth down the line until you end up with one approximately an inch +high from one originating from one six or seven inches high. That was +the first package that I recall receiving from Lee and his wife while +they were in Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. Approximately when was that? + +Mr. OSWALD. Prior to Christmas of 1961. + +Mr. JENNER. There was a second occasion when you received a package? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. What was that? + +Mr. OSWALD. This was closer to Christmas of 1961. + +Mr. JENNER. And it contained what? + +Mr. OSWALD. It contained one Russian children's book. + +Mr. JENNER. In the Russian language or in English? + +Mr. OSWALD. In the Russian language, sir, and going by the cover of the +book and as you open the book in the center section, a Russian rocket +ship would unfold and be standing in the launch position, and was quite +evident by the pictures, at least in the book, that this was a book +for Russian children depicting the Russian efforts toward their space +program. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you still have that book? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. And there was also another children's book, +and I believe this package only consisted of a present for Cathy Marie +Oswald for Christmas, 1961 from her aunt and uncle, Lee and Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. A child's gift? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and the second book was a child's coloring book, +a Russian coloring book. + +Mr. JENNER. Does that exhaust your recollection as to gifts you +received from them or from Lee while they were in Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it does. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever send you a pair of boots? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not. And I might add we also still have the +child's coloring book that was received at that time for Christmas, +1961. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. + +Now, would you please relate to us everything that your brother Lee +told you about hunting in Russia? + +Mr. McKENZIE. You mean other than in correspondence? + +Mr. JENNER. I mean other than by the correspondence. I should precede +that by the question did you have any conversation with him about +hunting in Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And that occurred after he returned to the United States? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Fix the approximate date. + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the latter part of June, 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. While he was residing in your home? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say? Excuse me, this occurred in your home? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anyone present other than yourself and your brother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps Marina and my wife Vada. As I best remember the +conversation, since our interest in hunting was mutual, that he had on +two or three occasions gone bird hunting or duck hunting and that he +had killed some birds and some ducks on two or three of these occasions +that he had gone in, that he had only used a shotgun, that they were +not allowed to have a rifle. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of that subject matter on any +other occasion prior to November 22, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe in his letters---- + +Mr. JENNER. No, discussions. + +Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, no, sir; there was not, not that I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with him during the period from +his return in June of 1962 up to November 22, 1963, of his membership +in a gun club while he was in Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did any discussion occur between you as to his membership +in any other group while he was in Russia, whether it was a gun club, a +social club, a labor union or otherwise? + +Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. In one of the letters, your brother Lee asked you whether, +to check to see if, the United States had any, lodged any charges +against him. + +Do you recall that? + +Mr. OSWALD. Briefly, yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you do when he made that request to you, if any? + +Mr. OSWALD. I recall replying to his letter and stated that to my +knowledge, and I could see no reason why they would have any charges +against him for going to Russia, because he was an American citizen, +and he was free to do as he chooses as long as it was not harmful +to the United States Government and I didn't feel like he had done +anything harmful to the United States Government by going to Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever write in any of the letters that you wrote +him, did you raise the question with him of whether he had in fact +renounced or attempted to renounce his United States citizenship? + +Mr. OSWALD. I was advised that, at the time, that we became aware that +Lee was in Russia by newspaper correspondents in Fort Worth, Tex., that +the United States Embassy acting on their own accord, would not allow +him to sign any final papers denouncing his United States citizenship. +Whether he wanted to or not they were attempting to prevent him from +doing this. I never did hear any more about that. Perhaps during the +correspondence or on his return from Russia, this was certainly evident +that he had not signed any final papers denouncing his United States +citizenship. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it from your response, sir, that you did not raise +that matter with him in any letters that you wrote to him? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with him on the subject on his +return to the United States? + +Mr. OSWALD. Possibly so, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that distinctly at the moment? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Lee raise again with you, following your +response to his request that you investigate whether or not there were +any other charges against him; did he raise again with you the question +of whether you had made an investigation, whether there were charges? + +Mr. McKENZIE. When you say did he raise again---- + +Mr. JENNER. At any time subsequent thereto, that is apart from the +correspondence which has been introduced in evidence. + +Mr. McKENZIE. There are several instances in the correspondence, Mr. +Jenner, there are questions raised about this. + +Are you talking about after he returned from--to the United States from +the Soviet Union? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir; I am at the moment. + +Mr. McKENZIE. All right. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. When he returned to the United States and while he was +living with you, was there or were there any occasions in which there +was discussion of his trip back from Russia and the course they took in +returning to the United States, the means and manner of return? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there was. + +Mr. JENNER. Give us your recollection of what that discussion was and +what your brother and/or Marina said to you and your wife Vada or +either of them? + +Mr. OSWALD. I recall asking him how his trip was from Russia to New +York City by boat. I asked him what route they had traveled, and he +advised me then, that is as I believe he advised me in one of his +letters, the first one, was to go from Minsk to Moscow and then from +Moscow to Holland, I believe, to board a ship that touched at England, +and from England to New York City. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he or they---- + +Mr. OSWALD. He. + +Mr. JENNER. This is a conversation with him? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with Marina on this subject +or in her presence? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, no, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. But he did state specifically that they had gone to Moscow? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And from Moscow to where? + +Mr. OSWALD. To Holland, if my memory serves me correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say, did he indicate, how they had traveled from +Moscow to Holland, by what means of conveyance? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about how long they stayed in Moscow +before they took off for Holland? + +Mr. OSWALD. In this discussion, I do not recall that he did, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And did he say how long they stayed in Holland, if they +stayed there at all? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do recall his stating specifically they touched +England in the sense that the ship---- + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; for supplies or for some other reason, it +appeared not to be, I say appeared, I assume it was not a very long +stay there and that they did not leave the ship. + +Mr. JENNER. He did state that they did not leave the ship at that point? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; this is an assumption on my part--the way he put +it to me. + +Mr. JENNER. And they proceeded from there directly to New York Harbor, +New York City. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. By what means? And he did report that to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did this series of letters you received in the early +portion, period of his stay in Russia excite your suspicions as to +whether he was or might be a Russian agent? + +Mr. OSWALD. If I understand the question correctly this was the early +stay of his in Russia in 1959? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir, 1959 and let us say to the early part of 1961. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any occasion to discuss that subject during +this period of time with your mother or she with you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Prior to his return in 1961 she did discuss this with me. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Where did this discussion take place? + +Mr. OSWALD. If I may fix the date approximately, sir, if you could give +me the date of her trip to Washington, D.C. + +Mr. JENNER. You have me at a disadvantage because Mr. Liebeler has been +called out and he can furnish that. I don't want to guess at it. + +Mr. McKENZIE. May I then ask if possibly the Chairman might recall? + +Mr. DULLES. The date of that visit to Washington? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. No, I don't think I do. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Possibly Mr. Rankin might know. + +Mr. JENNER. Our information was that that was January 26, 1961. + +Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. If I may have, the question again, please. + +(The question was read by the reporter.) + +Mr. JENNER. Whether the suspicions, on the part of yourself or your +mother, were that your brother was or might be an agent for the Russian +Government. + +Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir, I believe I misunderstood. I thought it +was in reference to whether or not Lee might have been an agent of the +United States Government. + +Mr. JENNER. No. It was the Russian Government I asked about. + +Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir. At no time was any discussion that I have +been into indicated that in any way. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you have referred then to, or had in mind, a +conversation with your mother as to whether your brother was an agent +of the United States Government. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And are you able to fix the time of that discussion now +having been supplied with the date when your mother visited Washington? + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the spring of 1961. + +Mr. JENNER. Several months following her visit to Washington in +January, 1961. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did that discussion take place? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe this was a telephone conversation, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you call her or did she call you? + +Mr. OSWALD. She called me, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you recognized her voice, did you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did. + +Mr. JENNER. What did she say on the subject? + +Mr. OSWALD. That she told me briefly about her trip to Washington, and +that she, as she put it, had seen various important people, and that +she was reaching or coming to the conclusion that Lee was an agent of +one sort or another for the United States Government. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir, that I did; if so, what my response +might have been. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't recall whether you responded, and if you did, you +don't recall your response? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, have you given us now all your conversations you +had with your mother on the subject of whether your brother, that is +up to November 22, 1963, as to whether your brother was or might have +been an agent of the Government of the United States or an agent of any +other government including that of Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. As you received these letters, particularly the series of +letters in 1961, up to the first of January, 1962, did there occur +to you the thought that your brother was or might be an agent of the +Russian Government? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it most certainly did not. + +Mr. JENNER. And at any time thereafter up to November 22, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it has not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with the State Department or did +the State Department have any contact with you at any time while your +brother was in Russia? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I believe the record will show there was a +previous telegram to Mr. Christian Herter who was Secretary of State at +the time. + +Mr. JENNER. Other than the telegram you testified about yesterday. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversations with your mother respecting +her contacts, if any, with the State Department during the period of +time your brother was in Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you at any time prior to November 22, 1963, no, I will +include that date, let's say at any time prior to December 1, 1963, +have any view or suspicion that Marina Oswald was or might have been an +agent of the Russian Government? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. In the letter of July 14, 1961, being Commission Exhibit +301, your brother expresses or states, makes some derogatory comments +respecting Russia. Is that the first information or knowledge that you +had of any change of attitude on his part? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Indicate the prior event that gave you some suspicion in +that connection. + +Mr. OSWALD. If I understand it correctly, sir, whether or not had I had +any prior indication prior to receiving the letter of July 14, 1961, +that Lee was becoming---- + +Mr. JENNER. Disenchanted. + +Mr. OSWALD. Disenchanted with the Russian way of life? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. When I received his first letter from Russia after a year +or so of silence---- + +Mr. JENNER. Give the date of the letter. + +There is a break between December 17, 1959 and May 5, 1961. + +Is it the letter of May 5 of 1961? + +Mr. OSWALD. I am referring to the letter of May 5, 1961. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. It is Commission Exhibit 299. + +Mr. OSWALD. It indicated to me, whether it so states in there or not, +because he did start writing again that he was in fact disenchanted +with the Russian way of life. + +Mr. JENNER. This is the first letter you received after Lee had gone to +Minsk, is it not? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is the first letter you received following the +undated letter of, in December, 1959, but that you have noted was +received on the 17th of December, 1959. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it then the subsequent letters heightened your +impression of suspicion that he was becoming--either was completely or +was becoming, disenchanted with Russia. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, in his letter it certainly doesn't indicate that +he was, but it was my opinion at that time and still is that he was +then---- + +Mr. JENNER. After you had read that letter, meaning the letter of May +5, 1961, which is Commission Exhibit 299, you felt that, or you had the +reaction that, he was becoming disenchanted with Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was later confirmed by subsequent letters in which +he expressly stated---- + +Mr. McKENZIE. Disenchantment. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. JENNER. There appears to be on some of the envelopes now in +evidence some stamps. They are in Russian but they may indicate that +they are stamps placed upon those envelopes by a censor, and we will +now undertake to investigate that circumstance. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Would you like for me to tell you which ones? + +Mr. JENNER. If you will give me the dates I will recite the exhibit +numbers. + +Mr. McKENZIE. It is June 26, 1961. + +Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit No. 300. + +Mr. McKENZIE. August 21, 1961. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the envelope dated August 21? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you see if that contains a one-page letter; oh, yes, +August 21, that is Commission Exhibit No. 303. + +You need not do it. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And September 10, 1961. + +Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit No. 305. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And I call the Commission's attention particularly to the +word stamped on the envelope "recommende" for whatever it means. + +Mr. DULLES. That is French. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate, Mr. Oswald, Marina's ability to +speak or understand English at the time that she and your brother +returned from Russia in June of 1962? + +Mr. OSWALD. Her ability to understand was far less than her ability to +speak English words. I spoke to her on the telephone the night of June +13, 1962 from New York City, to my residence in Fort Worth, Tex., and +her statement to me at that time was, "Hello, Robert." I replied but no +answer, and Lee took the telephone over again. + +Mr. JENNER. During the month they lived in your home, were you better +able to form an opinion as to her ability to speak and understand +English? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe the best way to establish the degree of what she +understood in English at that time and her ability to speak the English +language would be very, very, very small, if anything at all. + +Mr. JENNER. As to her facility in that regard--did her facility in that +regard become better as the months and years wore on? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion which you overheard or with you, +respecting her undertaking to study, learn to speak, English? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she most certainly wanted to learn to speak +English at the time, and she was staying at my home in Fort Worth, +Tex., and prior to their departure from Fort Worth, Tex., to Dallas, +Tex., in the winter of 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your brother's attitude with respect to her +desires in that respect? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall him stating his desires in that respect +either pro or con. + +Mr. JENNER. You have no impressions on the subject either way? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I might have an impression, pardon me, that he +wanted her particularly at the time we were staying, they were staying +at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., to learn English. + +Mr. JENNER. That was expressed in your presence during that period of +time by him? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not in so many words, sir. It was perhaps implied, and he +left me with the impression that he wanted her to learn English at that +time or as soon as she possibly could, and I might add that on a number +of occasions during the visit at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., that +my daughter Cathy, with her childhood language in 1961, which would +establish her age at 4 years old, would talk to her and it appeared +that she would gather more English from Cathy than she would the adults +in the family. + +Mr. JENNER. Did the State Department or any agency of the United +States, get in touch with you with respect to your supplying funds or +the possibility of your supplying funds to your brother while he was +still in Russia for the purpose of financing his return to the United +States? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did any agency of the United States or any public body +located in New York City get in touch with you with respect to +supplying him funds for his transportation from New York City to Fort +Worth? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, they did. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that the initial request or knowledge to you that you +received that funds were necessary, or would be needed for that purpose? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the name of the agency? Was it the one that +you identified yesterday? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it was. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +In his letter of November 30, 1961, he makes a request for a football. + +Did you send the football to him? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. In the letter of December 14, 1961, which is Commission +Exhibit No. 311, he makes a reference to the fact that he had not +received any letter with "certain" questions. Apparently questions that +you had put to him. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have that letter? + +Mr. OSWALD. The letter of July 14? + +Mr. JENNER. No, this is December 14. + +Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me. + +Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit 311. It is two pages. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have the letter. + +Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection as to some letter you +had written him prior thereto? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Will you state what the letter was and whether it was in +response to an earlier letter? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was not in response--it was a response to an +earlier letter from Lee. I did in an effort to determine whether or not +all my letters---- + +Mr. JENNER. The last prior letter was the letter of November 30, 1961, +Commission Exhibit 308, and then immediately prior to that was the +letter of November 1, 1961, Commission Exhibit 309. + +Mr. OSWALD. In reference to the question regarding that letter of +December 14, 1961, at which time he stated "I did not receive any +letter with 'certain' questions." + +I did write him a letter at which time I recall raising two political +type questions to see whether or not he would receive---- + +Mr. JENNER. He would respond? + +Mr. OSWALD. Sir? + +Mr. JENNER. To see whether he would respond, did you say? + +Mr. OSWALD. To see whether or not he would receive the letter itself. + +Mr. JENNER. I am sorry, I thought you said to receive. + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir; if my memory serves me correct in some +earlier letters he refers there to some Russian censors he felt like +were censoring his mail and my mail also and I wanted to find out in my +own way whether this was so or not. + +I might say that was the only time I attempted to raise any type of +political questions in my response to any of his letters or any other +letters that I sent him, because I did want the letters to go through +rather than be destroyed or not received by him. + +Mr. JENNER. We can draw our own inference as to whether he received +your letter. + +Was there any discussion of the subject after return to the United +States, that is, the subject whether he had received your letter? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with your brother on the +subject of his undesirable discharge after he returned to the United +States? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And when was that? Was it more than one occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, only on one occasion did we discuss that +matter. + +Mr. JENNER. When was that? Where was it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately June 1962 at my home in Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. Who was present? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe just Lee and I were present in this one room +which was the living room of our home. + +Mr. JENNER. In your home? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say? + +Mr. OSWALD. He said he wanted to go down the next day to the Marine +Corps office in Fort Worth, Tex., and discuss with them and perhaps +find out what action he needed to take to have this corrected to an +honorable discharge. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you say? + +Mr. OSWALD. My reply to him on that was that I thought that that was +a good idea and that he might raise the question at the Marine Corps +office in Fort Worth, Tex., if I could be of some assistance in +writing the Marine Corps office directly on behalf of him. I do not +recall if he made this trip to the Marine Corps office. I do not recall +any further conversation in reference to his dishonorable discharge. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you turn your attention now to the letter of May 22, +1962, shortly before he returned to the United States? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 318. + +As I recall that letter, he refers to some things that you had said +when he departed for Russia. Do you find that portion of the letter? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you read it aloud, please, just that portion? + +Mr. McKENZIE. May I interrupt you at this point, Mr. Jenner? + +Please, Mr. Chairman. + +Mr. DULLES. Certainly, proceed. + +Mr. McKENZIE. The two letters of November 8 and November 26 which we +should make copies of for the purposes of the record, if you will pull +them out of your file there I will--do you want to take the originals? + +Mr. JENNER. That will be the best way of doing it. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Except that yours are already marked with the exhibit +number. I have no objection. + +I will find out who I should see about making these. + +Mr. JENNER. Why do you not make them on the Xerox machine? + +I had asked you to read that portion of the letter so we can place the +matter in context. + +Mr. OSWALD. "I know what was said about me when I left the United +States as Mother sent me clippings from the newspapers. However, I +realize it was just the shock of the news which made you say all those +things. However, I will just remind you again not to make any statement +or comments if you are approached by the newspapers between now and the +time we actually arrive in the United States." + +Mr. JENNER. Is he referring then to things that were reported in the +newspaper clippings that you said or is he referring to something +you said to him before he departed for Russia, or is he referring to +something you said in a letter you may have written him when he was in +Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. He is referring, sir, to the clippings of newspapers +that mother had sent him containing reportedly my statements to the +newspapers at the time we were advised on October 31, 1959 that Lee was +in Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to make any comments to newspaper +reporters when it became known that he was about to return to the +United States? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And did those come to your brother's attention? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss them or he with you? + +Mr. OSWALD. When the newspaper reporters contacted me prior to his +arrival in New York City, I did not divulge my knowledge of his +departure as per this letter of May 22, 1962, the approximate date +he would be in the United States. I did not give them any indication +whatsoever at that time that he was leaving the Soviet Union. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever respond to that particular letter? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question here? + +You indicated that your brother was disappointed when he arrived at +Love Airfield and the newspapermen were not there when he came back +from Russia. + +Did the newspapermen thereafter talk with your brother at your house or +elsewhere? + +Mr. OSWALD. They attempted to, sir. I say "they." It was, more +specifically, one newspaperman. + +Mr. JENNER. But he did not succeed in getting an interview? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Reference is made in your brother's letter to you of +November 17, 1962, which is Commission Exhibit 320, to Thanksgiving +dinner. Would you obtain that exhibit, please? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have it. + +Mr. DULLES. What Thanksgiving, 1962? + +Mr. JENNER. 1962, sir. + +Was the Thanksgiving dinner held at your home on Thanksgiving Day, +November 1962? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us all of the circumstances preceding, +leading up to and what occurred on that date and who attended the +Thanksgiving dinner? + +Mr. OSWALD. Lee and Marina and their small child had moved to Dallas, +Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. Where in Dallas, Tex.? Do you recall? + +Mr. OSWALD. I did not have any address, sir. I had only a post office +box, Box 2915, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. OSWALD. My older brother John had called me from San Antonio, Tex., +prior to Thanksgiving 1962, indicating that he was going to be able to +take a leave---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Oswald. + +Mr. Chairman, there is some confusion respecting this Thanksgiving +dinner. + +Mr. OSWALD. Where John was stationed in the Air Force--he called me +from San Antonio stating that he would be able to take a leave during +the period of Thanksgiving of November 1962 and that they would travel +from San Antonio, Tex., to my home in Fort Worth, Tex. I wrote Lee and +asked him would it be possible for him to join us at that time with his +family. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate in your letter that his brother John and +wife were to join you on that occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate that anyone in addition, to wit, your +mother, was also to join you on that occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. OSWALD. In reference to the letter dated November 17, 1962, from +Lee Harvey Oswald---- + +Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit 320. + +Mr. OSWALD. It replied to my letter: "In answer to your kind +invitation for Thanksgiving, we love to come and will be in Fort Worth +Thanksgiving morning and we shall come by bus and give you a ring on +the phone from the bus station (about 9:10). See you soon. Lee." + +Mr. JENNER. Did he come to Fort Worth? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. For that particular occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. When did he arrive? + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately nine to ten o'clock in the morning. + +Mr. JENNER. Of Thanksgiving Day? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he accompanied by anyone? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was. + +Mr. JENNER. Who? + +Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald and the baby June Lee Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Did all of you have Thanksgiving dinner on that day? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did both Lee and Marina attend that dinner? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did. + +Mr. JENNER. And John Pic and his wife? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did. + +Mr. JENNER. You and your wife? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Your children? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The children of Lee and Marina? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. The child. There was only one at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. That is right, the child June. Anyone else? + +Mr. OSWALD. The children of John and Marge Pic. + +Mr. JENNER. But your mother did not attend the dinner? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you invited her? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. + +Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, she was unaware of it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Was any comment made that she was not present, about the +fact that she was not present at the dinner? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about what your brother Lee was doing by +way of employment in Dallas? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there was. + +Mr. JENNER. What was said, and by whom? + +Mr. OSWALD. I feel like I had asked Lee what he was doing at that +particular time, and his reply to me was that he was working for a +traffic outfit in Dallas, the name of which I do not recall. However, +he did state the name of the firm. I do not recall the name of the +firm. And that it was to him very interesting work. He thought that he +could perhaps learn this type of work and progress in it quite ably. + +Mr. DULLES. How did he appear to you mentally and physically on this +occasion of the Thanksgiving dinner? + +Mr. OSWALD. Very fit physically and very alert mentally. + +Mr. JENNER. Discussion on that day occurred between you and your +half-brother, John Pic, did it not, respecting your brother Lee's +un-American beliefs? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that discussion between yourself--was it +confined to a discussion between yourself and John Pic? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you raise the subject? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You were concerned about his un-American beliefs, were you +not? + +Mr. OSWALD. I was not concerned about them. I wanted to state to John, +since he had not been in contact with Lee when Lee was in Russia, or +when he was at my home in Fort Worth, that this conversation took place. + +Mr. JENNER. You state it. + +Mr. DULLES. Was John present? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. He was present. + +Mr. McKENZIE. It was to John. + +Mr. DULLES. Was he present? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. I was about to say that this +conversation took place on our way from my house to the bus station to +pick up Lee, Marina and June the morning of Thanksgiving 1962. I do +not recall the circumstances preceding this particular point of why I +brought it up other than I do recall mentioning that the FBI had talked +to Lee and apparently that everything was all right because they were +not proceeding to discuss with him at any length and they were not +holding him for any reason, so I assumed that everything was all right +in that respect. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Have you exhausted your present recollection of that conversation? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. DULLES. How did you know that the FBI had talked with Lee? + +Mr. OSWALD. Lee had told me and I was aware that they had called my +house and requested Lee to come down to their office in Fort Worth and +talk with them. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he report to you on that conversation at all? The +details of it? + +Mr. OSWALD. A very small detail of it, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What details? + +Mr. OSWALD. I asked him when I returned home from work that afternoon +how did it go. He said, "Just fine." He said they asked him at the last +whether or not he was an agent for the United States Government. His +reply was "Don't you know?" + +Mr. JENNER. You recited that yesterday. + +Mr. McKENZIE. This was testified to yesterday. It is repetition. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you at that time say to John that the FBI had--excuse +me--had assured you that Lee was all right and not dangerous to our +country? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say to John on that occasion or any other occasion +that he need not worry about Lee in connection with possible danger to +our country? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. When was that? + +Mr. OSWALD. This was on the same occasion on the trip to the bus +station as I have so indicated, that I had assumed, since they were not +holding Lee or questioning him to any frequency, because at that time +they had only questioned him to my knowledge one time, that everything +as far as un-American views that he expressed when he went to Russia, +everything was cleared and they had no reason to hold him or suspect +him of anything. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you know about the Fair Play for Cuba incident in New +Orleans at this time? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Lee and Marina leave your home after +Thanksgiving dinner? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did. + +Mr. JENNER. That same day? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to see your brother at any time from +that moment when he departed until sometime on the 22d of November 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt you one more time? + +In response to your question, Mr. Chairman, it is my best recollection, +and I may be wrong and stand to be corrected if I am wrong, that the +Fair Play for Cuba or the pro-Castro leaflets that he was handing out +in New Orleans was in the summer of 1963. + +Mr. DULLES. I think you may be right. + +Do you remember that? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, that is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. That is correct. It had not taken place. + +Mr. McKENZIE. It had not taken place in November of 1962. + +Mr. DULLES. Right. + +Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of our knowledge. + +Mr. JENNER. Did the witness have any opportunity to respond to my last +question? + +Mr. McKENZIE. You had finished your question and I interrupted you +before you could make another question. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean the witness had responded to it? + +Mr. DULLES. No; I do not think he had. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you read the pending question? + +(The last question was read by the reporter.) + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see Marina at any time subsequent to their +departure on Thanksgiving Day, November 1962 and November 22, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you have any telephone conversations with either of +them? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had. + +Mr. JENNER. In the interim period? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there a number of those or were they infrequent? + +Mr. OSWALD. I recall only one, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. When did that take place? + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately two or three weeks after Thanksgiving of 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be sometime then in December of 1962? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you call him or did he call you? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he called me. + +Mr. JENNER. You recognized his voice? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And was it day or night? + +Mr. OSWALD. It was, I believe it was Sunday afternoon, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Sunday afternoon. And what was the occasion of his making +that call as you recall it? + +Mr. OSWALD. That he was in town briefly. + +Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth? + +Mr. OSWALD. In Fort Worth, Tex., and that I asked would we see him; he +said no, they were visiting some friends. + +Mr. JENNER. "They" meaning he and Marina? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and that they would be leaving for Dallas very +shortly. + +Mr. JENNER. That was a social call? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You have given the full of the conversation? + +Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance; yes, sir. It was very short. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to talk to Marina over the telephone +on that particular time? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he talk with any other member of your family on that +occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Other than that telephone conversation, had you had any +other conversation with your brother Lee from the time on Thanksgiving +Day, November 1962 to the time you saw him on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. I did not see him on November---- + +Mr. McKENZIE. He did not see him on that day. + +Mr. OSWALD. On November 22, 1963. + +Mr. McKENZIE. He saw him on November 23, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. Then my question is November 23. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not had any conversation with him after +November 1962, Thanksgiving Day, other than the one I have mentioned, +up to the time of November 22, 1963. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you make any attempts to get in touch with him in that +period? + +Mr. OSWALD. Only through the mail, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I was about to come to that. + +Did you have any correspondence with him in the sense of your +dispatching a letter or note or he dispatching one to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you retain the correspondence insofar as anything you +received from him is concerned? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And that has previously been furnished to the Commission. + +Mr. JENNER. It has previously been furnished and it is, I see, a +postcard which is dated as I recall--you give the date. + +Mr. OSWALD. We are still referring to the period after November 1962, +Thanksgiving Day? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, we are. + +Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. + +One postcard dated January 10, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is Commission Exhibit 324. + +Did you receive any other correspondence? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you have it there? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is a letter dated? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What date? + +Mr. OSWALD. March 16, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is Commission Exhibit 322. + +Did you receive any other correspondence from him? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you dispatch any to him? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they have any relation to either of the exhibits you +have now identified? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not. + +Mr. JENNER. That is, neither Exhibit 322 nor Exhibit 324 was in +response to any communication that you had dispatched to him? + +Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir, I was incorrect on that. + +The letter of March 16, 1963 was in response to a letter I had written +him approximately the first week of March 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you retain a copy of the letter you sent him? And if +you made one, did you retain a copy? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; no copy was made and I did not retain it. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you state the contents of your letter? + +Mr. OSWALD. It was, briefly, sir, that we had moved to Malvern, Ark. +I informed him of my new address and advised him that I had placed +my home in Fort Worth, Tex., up for sale, and I had been given an +opportunity by the company for a better and higher position, and that I +had taken this opportunity and moved to Malvern, Ark. and requested, if +possible, we would like to have them visit us. + +Mr. DULLES. When did you move to Malvern, approximately? + +Mr. OSWALD. The fifth day of March 1963, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. And how long were you there? + +Mr. OSWALD. To September 13, 1963, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. And then you returned to---- + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. Then I moved to Denton, Tex. + +Mr. DULLES. Denton, Tex.? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. So that at the time of the event, November 22, 1963, you +were residing in Malvern, Tex.? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was residing in Denton, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. I should have said Malvern, Ark., anyhow. + +Mr. DULLES. Let's see, you were then in Malvern, Ark., from March 1963, +to approximately September 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. That is where I misunderstood. I thought he said December. + +All right, sir. I take it then at least from Thanksgiving Day, 1962, +and the 23d day of November, 1963, you never had any discussions with +Robert with respect to his desire, if any, to return to Russia, with +Lee rather? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him on that subject? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him or he with you or +with Marina or she with you on her return to Russia, whether he desired +it or she did? + +Mr. OSWALD. During that period? + +Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 23, 1963. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. When did that discussion that you now have in mind take +place? + +Mr. OSWALD. At my home in June of 1962, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Who was present? + +Mr. OSWALD. My wife Vada and Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. With Marina I take it? + +Mr. OSWALD. And Marina was there. + +Yes, sir; I was having a conversation or she was having something of a +conversation with me. + +Mr. JENNER. Before you give the conversation, was there ever any +other occasion up to and including November 23, 1963 when you had a +discussion with your brother or with Marina respecting the return of +either of them to Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I only recall this one occasion. + +Mr. JENNER. State what was said, please, and by whom. + +Mr. OSWALD. This was said by Marina Oswald in June of 1962 in very +broken English: "I never want to go to Russia again." + +Mr. JENNER. Return to Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was said in the presence of your brother Lee, your +presence and your wife's presence? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I feel certain that all four of us were present. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your brother say anything on that occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. As to that subject matter? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. This took place in your home? How long after they had +returned from Russia did this conversation take place? + +Mr. McKENZIE. What was that question? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say 1 or 2 weeks. + +Mr. JENNER. One or two weeks after they had returned from Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. That is when they were staying with you after their return? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. At any time prior to November 23, 1962, were you aware or +did any incident arise or conversation take place indicating any desire +on your brother Lee's part to go to Cuba? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Or to Mexico? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Or any other country than the United States? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not. + +Mr. DULLES. Was there any particular reason why you did not have some +contact with Lee during the period November, Thanksgiving 1962, and +your departure for Arkansas in March of 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I was aware of. I did write him on two +or three occasions asking him to advise me of his address in Dallas, +Tex., so when I had an opportunity either on business or otherwise +passing through where I could possibly stop and see him, if not Marina +and the child. + +His response to this was as it is stated in the letter of March 17, +1963, that generally he was moving and it was not settled and he would +always retain the post office box in Dallas, Tex., where I might reach +him through the mail and that I would not be able to see him or his +family when I came through town. + +Mr. DULLES. Did that surprise you? + +Mr. OSWALD. It did not at first, sir, because I realized he was not +settled as to a stable job and to an apartment. However, it did concern +me later, and I refer to my letter that I wrote him in March of 1963 +which he replied to on March 17 or March 16, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. Which is Commission Exhibit 322. + +Mr. OSWALD. That I would like to have an address other than a post +office box, and when again he did not furnish me this information, I +did not respond to his letter of March 17, 1963. The last time I wrote +him was in September 1963 when I returned to Texas and our moving +into Denton, Tex., advising him of my new address, and still at that +time requesting again an address where they were staying at in Dallas +so that I might contact him, since again we were close together, +approximately 30 miles away. + +Mr. JENNER. And he did not respond to that? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he never responded to that letter that I wrote him +in September other than on the day that I visited him at Dallas County +Jail or Dallas City Jail on November 23, 1963, he did say before I had +an opportunity to say anything to him, "Robert, you now are living in +Denton, aren't you?" And I said yes. + +In other words, he had received my letter of September 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. This was elicited by Mr. Dulles' question, his failure to +advise you in due course eventually here as late as September 1963 of +his location in Dallas aroused some suspicions, doubts or a question in +your mind? + +Mr. OSWALD. It did to this extent, that I thought perhaps---- + +Mr. JENNER. Keep in mind all this history also, Mr. Oswald. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That you testified about. + +Mr. OSWALD. That perhaps he was angry at us or did not want to have +anything to do with us. However, it was also my thinking on this that +this would be out of character for him because he normally would +keep in contact with me and let me have his address and so forth, +even though he had furnished a post office box at first and which I +understood, but his failure to give me an address indicated---- + +Mr. JENNER. Despite your at least two requests? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Or three requests? + +Mr. OSWALD. Indicated to me that perhaps something of a different +nature was going on that I was not aware of, whether he was having +trouble with Marina and perhaps the baby, and they were not getting +along and he did not want me to become aware of this situation; this +would be my only speculation on that, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Did your wife have any contact with Marina over this period +we are discussing from Thanksgiving of 1962 to November 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she ever indicate to you that she made any effort to +effect a contact with Marina? + +Mr. OSWALD. Did my wife? + +No, sir; she did not. + +Mr. JENNER. In the light, Mr. Oswald, of the fact that your brother, +as you testified, you thought looked up to you in his youth at +least, in the light of his departure for Russia, in the light of the +correspondence that you had with him in Russia about which you have +testified, in the light of the conversations that you had with him upon +his return, did not the fact that you did not hear from him for as +long a period as from Thanksgiving Day of 1962 to well into the fall +of 1963 raise any question in your mind beyond that which you have now +testified about? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That it might be something other than possible marital +difficulties? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Of course, I refer to the postcard of January 10, 1963, and the letter +of March 17, 1963, which I would state other than the fact that he did +not advise me of his residence in Dallas, Tex.---- + +Mr. JENNER. Despite the fact that you requested it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Right, that the infrequency of the mail at this time was +going back to prior to the time that he was in Russia, to the extent +that he was not writing frequently then when he was in the service +and so forth, and then again I thought that he was returning to this, +because I was also not writing him as frequently as we had while he was +in Russia. And it is my opinion, sir, that Lee felt that he had caused +me enough difficulty, that he did not want to in any way, even though I +had offered my assistance after his return from Russia, in any way that +I possibly could, that he did not want to burden me in case he was in +any financial difficulty or any other difficulty. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you. + +I am going to attempt to cover in general terms, Mr. Chairman, +Representative Ford's questions and see if I can shorten up the +examination in that respect. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I have just a word with you for just a moment. + +(Short recess.) + +Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted at least by hearsay at the moment, are +you not, with respect to an alleged attack having been made by your +brother upon General Walker? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. + +Mr. JENNER. It is that to which I wish to direct a question. + +Did you have any knowledge or information of any kind or character at +any time prior to November 24, 1963, of that incident? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. No one had spoken to you about it? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they had not. + +Mr. JENNER. When did it first come to your attention? + +Mr. OSWALD. In the newspaper. I believe this to be sometime in the +latter part of December 1963 or January 1964. + +Mr. JENNER. It was subsequent to your brother's death? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you had no information direct or indirect of any kind +or character, scuttlebutt, hearsay or otherwise, up to that moment? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you know of any acts of violence that your brother had +carried out or had contemplated or attempted during his life other than +school boy antics? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. I have never known him to attempt or +indicate to attempt to carry out any type of violence other than a +schoolboy---- + +Mr. JENNER. Was he given to tantrums? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he ever seem to you to be a man who repressed himself, +that he was boiling inside and that there were a great many emotions +that he had that he was holding in? Did you get that impression from +your knowledge of him? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I would say that Lee's character was +that he was more of a listener than a talker, not to the extent of +being an introvert. I do not believe he was an introvert. + +Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you that question. There have been +people who have been interviewed, teachers and others, a good many +of them as a matter of fact, who have described your brother as an +introvert. Your mother used the expression that he was a loner in a +statement that she made to the authorities in New York City, and I +think on this record. + +Was he in your opinion, gathered from your actual experience with +him during his lifetime, a loner, that is, a person who would tend +to prefer to be by himself and not seek out friends, not necessarily +repulse friends but not affirmatively seek them out? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say yes and no, sir, to that question if I may. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Would you expand then and explain your answer yes and no? + +Mr. OSWALD. I feel like in the late 1940s to about the time of my +departure to the service in July of 1952, that he did seek out friends, +and that he did have friends. However, after my release from the +service in 1955, I do believe that he had become more grown to himself. + +Mr. JENNER. That is during the interim he had become, while you were +away? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You noticed a change in him when you returned from the +service? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that what you mean to say? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed and describe that to us. + +Mr. OSWALD. Still my contact with him was limited, but he did appear to +be drawn within himself more than he had been prior, and I do not know +of any friends that he had at that particular time. + +One factor of course would be that he had moved quite frequently or a +number of times during this period. + +Mr. JENNER. Apart from the reason, for the moment, I seek to draw from +you your personal reaction as to whether he had become more retiring +and that you had actually noticed that difference in him? + +Mr. OSWALD. Well, to me, sir, he had become or appeared to become more +drawn into himself to the extent that I noticed that he wanted to read +more, and of course when he wanted to read he wanted to be by himself. +However, to me personally at that time when we were together, if he did +not wish to read, he seemed and appeared to be as he was prior to 1952, +sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did that state of mind or his action, did you notice that +that persisted when he returned from Russia? + +Was he still of that retiring nature? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. I felt that he was more of a +gregarious type person that wanted to mix with people and wanted to +talk to people. + +Mr. JENNER. After he left your home and took residence with your mother +and thereafter in various places in Fort Worth, did he seek you out? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. He called me on a number of occasions at my +office. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he come by your home and visit you voluntarily without +invitation? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall of any time, sir. I usually was talking to +him on the telephone quite frequently during the period that he had +moved out of my mother's apartment into their own duplex, to the extent +that I always told him that if he would like to come out any time just +to give me a ring and I would gladly pick them up and bring them out to +the house and return them to their home. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he do so? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. + +Mr. DULLES. There has been some testimony here before the Commission +to the general effect that in the latter period he broke pretty much +away with some of the Russian group of friends in Dallas that Marina +had developed or liked to be with, and that is because she could talk +Russian. Did you see anything of that, and can you throw any further +light on that? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I was aware or had become aware of this +group or some other group of the Russian-speaking population in Dallas, +and I was aware of Mr. Gregory in Fort Worth, Tex., who had come to +my house before Lee and Marina had moved out, to speak in the Russian +language to Marina and to Lee. I was not aware that--I was aware that +he was talking with and becoming acquainted with this group of persons, +and I was not aware of the fact that he was withdrawing from this group +of people. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you know anything about his relations with a certain +man named De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the name familiar to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, who is the Chairman of the session today, +has asked Mr. Oswald if he knows or has heard of a man by the name of +De Mohrenschildt. Robert Oswald's answer I believe is reflected on +the record that he did not know Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I have stated +off the record to Mr. Dulles and to Mr. Jenner that I know George De +Mohrenschildt. + +I became acquainted with George De Mohrenschildt in this manner. +Shortly after the law was passed in Texas that we could have women +jurors---- + +Mr. JENNER. Could you fix that time? + +Mr. McKENZIE. No, I cannot, but it has been within the last five years. +I would say. But shortly after the law was passed that we could have +women jurors sitting in our courts, my wife happened to be on a jury +in Dallas, Texas, in one of our district courts. Sitting on that same +jury with my wife, Sally McKenzie was a man by the name of George De +Mohrenschildt. As a result of her jury experience in the trial of this +case, in which he was a juror, I met George De Mohrenschildt. I have +since come to know him briefly, and in no way intimately. + +George De Mohrenschildt at one time was married to a lady from +Pennsylvania by the name of Wynne Sharples. They were subsequently +divorced in Dallas. Wynne Sharples is an M.D. by profession. She comes +from a well-known Pennsylvania family, and her father has been engaged +in the oil business under the name of Sharples Oil Company. + +Wynne Sharples, following her divorce from George De Mohrenschildt, +remarried and married another M.D. + +Mr. JENNER. What is her married name? + +Mr. McKENZIE. I do not recall her married name, but I do believe that +she and her then husband, and I presume her present husband, the doctor +that she married, were engaged in medical research at some hospital +in Philadelphia or Baltimore, looking to the cause and a cure of a +children's ailment of a very serious nature, and I believe it was +connected with some blood type ailment. + +Mr. JENNER. Leukemia? + +Mr. McKENZIE. No, it was not leukemia. There was an article on Wynne +Sharples in one of the magazine supplements of either the Dallas +Times-Herald or the Dallas Morning News, within the past five years. + +George De Mohrenschildt has subsequently remarried, and some +time within the past two years there was an article on George De +Mohrenschildt in one of the Dallas daily newspapers, telling of a trip +that he and his new bride were going to take through Mexico and Central +America walking. In other words, they were going to walk from Dallas +or the Mexican-United States border through Mexico and through Central +America. It is my understanding that such a trip was taken, and that +George De Mohrenschildt has since that time returned to Dallas, Tex. In +fact, I have seen him in Dallas, Tex., within the past 7 months. + +I do not know of any relationship between George De Mohrenschildt and +Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald, nor have I ever heard of any. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you describe George De Mohrenschildt physically, his +physical appearance, the one you have in mind? + +Mr. McKENZIE. The man that I know is a large man, approximately six +foot one to three inches. He would probably weigh 205 to maybe 215 +pounds. + +Mr. JENNER. Age? + +Mr. McKENZIE. He appears to be between 45 and 50 or 51 or 52. He has +got a dark complexion, and I would say a typically foreign expression +or foreign look to him, from the standpoint of being either a Russian +or of the Slavic races. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever spoken with him, to give us your impression +of whether he has a foreign inflection in his speech? + +Mr. McKENZIE. He does have a foreign inflection in his speech, and I +have heard, I do not know this to be true, but I have heard that Mr. De +Mohrenschildt has quite a way with the ladies. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, thanks. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, I have asked you about the Nixon and General +Walker incidents. Did you at any time prior to November 23, 1963, have +drawn to your attention any incident of any kind or character of action +on the part of your brother Lee similar to those which have been raised +as to General Walker and Richard Nixon? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. You have seen pictures of, and you have heard about, the +rifle which was allegedly employed by the assassin of President Kennedy +in that assassination? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have seen pictures of it? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you at any time prior to November 23, 1963, ever see +the rifle which is alleged to have been employed in the assassination +of President Kennedy? + +Mr. OSWALD. I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see at your home or any place a rifle of that +character in the possession of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see any rifle of that character in or about +any premises that he might or was occupying or that Marina was +occupying? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. I might further state I never knew him +to own but one firearm in his entire life, and that was a .22 caliber +rifle that he purchased from New Orleans, La., and on my visit to New +Orleans, La., in 1955 on my discharge from the service, I purchased +this from Lee for a total of $10. He had given approximately $16 for +the rifle. It would not fire. And I gave him $10 for it, and took it +back to Fort Worth and worked on it and put it into working condition. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion, did any discussion take place +between you and Lee, or in your presence, other than that which you +have testified heretofore up to this moment, of his use of a firearm, +be it a pistol or a rifle, during the period from June 1962 to, and +including, the 23d of November, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I had not. + +Mr. JENNER. Nothing of that character occurred between you or in your +presence and his presence during all of that period of time? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. I might say what they were saying +at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., on Davenport Street during the first +week, Lee and I were discussing hunting and so forth out at my in-laws' +farm, I did produce at that time all weapons in my possession in front +of Marina and Lee. They made Marina Oswald nervous, and shortly after +looking at my weapons, I returned them to their proper place, and +that was the only time that I have ever seen him handle a weapon from +the time that he returned from Russia in 1962 until the reports of +present-day activities along that line that he handled a weapon. + +Mr. JENNER. Just to nail down this subject, I take it then that at +no time from the time of his return in June of 1962 to the United +States to and including November 23, 1962, did you ever see him in the +possession of a firearm of any kind or character? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. If I may, sir, referring to the hunting +trip that we did take at the farm in June of 1962---- + +Mr. JENNER. Other than that to which you have already testified? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct, at no time. + +Mr. JENNER. And you had that in mind when you answered my question in +the negative? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I was excluding your prior testimony. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. Apart from newspaper photographs, have you ever to your +knowledge seen Jack Ruby on television? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. Or a person said to be Jack Ruby? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Use his full name. + +Mr. JENNER. Jack Rubenstein. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in any establishment allegedly operated +by him or in which he has an interest, to your knowledge? + +Mr. OSWALD. Would you mind, sir, giving me the names of those +establishments? + +Mr. JENNER. I will do that from other papers later on, but to your +present knowledge, without refreshing or stimulating your recollection, +could you give me an answer? + +Mr. OSWALD. I have not, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Now would you go on and ask him, or would you prefer +to---- + +Mr. JENNER. Would you mind waiting? I am just taking care of +Representative Ford's questions at the moment. + +Your mother testified that an FBI agent had shown her a picture of +some man on the evening of Saturday, November 23, 1963. She testified +further that later, after your brother had been killed, she saw +a picture of Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein alias Jack Ruby in the +newspaper, and that she exclaimed in your presence that Ruby was the +man whose picture had been shown to her on a Saturday night, November +23, 1963, by an agent of the FBI. Does that refresh your recollection? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And did that take place? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it did. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please testify or tell us of where that took +place, who was present and what the circumstances were? + +Mr. OSWALD. That took place at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, +Tex., during the week of November 25, 1963, in the presence I believe +of two or more Secret Service agents, and perhaps an Arlington police +officer in the rooms that were assigned at the Inn of the Six Flags, +and I feel like at least one of the Secret Service agents that was +present---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, you used the expression "and I feel like". +Do you mean you are speculating? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, is that a better expression, sir? + +Mr. JENNER. Go ahead, and then I will ask you on what basis you base +that belief. + +Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. I believe that the Secret Service agents, +at least one of them was Mr. Mike Howard. + +Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That is what you mean by believe? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. OSWALD. I testify it was either two or three Secret Service agents +present, and my best recollection, another Secret Service agent would +be Mr. Charles I. Kunkel, and if my recollection serves me correctly, +there was an Arlington police officer at the time. It would be either +Mr. Bob Parsons or Mr. Jeff Gan. + +Mr. JENNER. These were the persons present on this occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe this to be. + +Mr. JENNER. And what occurred and what was said? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, to my best recollection, mother was in another +room and she had received a copy of a newspaper which I cannot +identify, that reportedly had a picture of Mr. Rubenstein or Mr. Jack +Ruby, and mother exclaimed to me---- + +Mr. JENNER. Did she come into the room in which you gentlemen were? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did. + +Mr. JENNER. And she had the newspaper in her possession? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did. + +Mr. JENNER. And she walked among you and said something? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she exhibit anything? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did. + +Mr. JENNER. What did she exhibit? + +Mr. OSWALD. A picture that I could recognize as a picture now of a man +known as Jack Ruby. + +Mr. JENNER. That was a picture in the newspaper? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed. + +Mr. OSWALD. And she stated to me---- + +Mr. JENNER. In the presence of the others? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, that +two FBI agents had gone to the Executive Inn in Dallas, to the rooms +where mother and Marina and Baby June Lee Oswald were staying, and that +at this particular time Marina was taking a bath or a shower, mother +had just completed hers, she was in a robe, she did not open the door +fully, that one of the FBI agents produced a picture that she stated +was Mr. Jack Ruby, and that was the text of it. + +Mr. DULLES. You did not see the picture that was shown by the Secret +Service man? + +Mr. OSWALD. The FBI man? + +Mr. DULLES. The FBI man. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. I was not there. + +Mr. JENNER. Assuming it was shown, it was not exhibited to you. Your +mother stated that a picture of Mr. Jack Ruby had been exhibited to her +by an FBI man. + +Mr. OSWALD. That a picture that an FBI man---- + +Mr. JENNER. On the Saturday night, November 23, 1963. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that the FBI man exhibited a picture, and mother +said that she recognized from the newspaper to be Mr. Jack Ruby. + +Mr. JENNER. Did any of the gentlemen present say anything when your +mother made that statement? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe they did, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Give us your best recollection of what was said, +and if you can identify the person, do so, but in any event tell us +what was said, if you can identify them only by stating he was a police +officer or a Secret Service man or an FBI agent, then do that. + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe Mr. Mike Howard of the United States Secret +Service looked at the picture in the newspaper and said something to +mother in the line or in the nature of "Are you sure" and so forth like +that. It was very brief, and she was saying that she was positive. + +Mr. JENNER. She responded that she was certain of it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that she was certain that the photograph shown to +her on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, was the man in the picture +being identified as Mr. Jack Ruby, the killer of my brother, Lee Harvey +Oswald. + +Mr. DULLES. Did she say anything about what the officer who had shown +her this photograph had said to her, or explained why he was showing +that picture? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, she did indicate that they wanted to show +it to Marina for identification, and mother explained to him that she +was in the shower and was fixing to go to bed, and they were very tired. + +Mr. JENNER. Now would you give us please your opinion and judgment as +to the stability of your mother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Prior to November 22, 1963----correction, prior to November +24, 1963, I believed her to be a stable average person. However, +during the week of November 24, including the date of November 24, +1963, through Friday of that week, which was November 29, 1963, due to +the happenings and the events that had ensued from the November 22d +afternoon through Sunday of November 23d, it is my opinion that at +first that her reactions were quite normal, and to be expected. + +However, it is my opinion during the latter part of that week, from +approximately Wednesday, November 27, 1963, that her reactions to other +matters related to the events of November 22 and November 24, 1963, +were abnormal reactions. + +Mr. JENNER. Did those normal or abnormal reactions continue to the best +of your knowledge thereafter? + +Mr. OSWALD. Since I have not seen her, sir, since Friday November 29, +1963, I have talked with her on telephone calls only, I have no opinion +on that at this time. + +Mr. JENNER. One way or the other? + +Mr. OSWALD. One way or the other. + +Mr. JENNER. Whether continued or not continued? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You have testified that you thought you had an influence on +Lee's joining the Marines. That is an influence of an example rather +than a direct influence, that is any direct contact by you suggesting +that if he entered the service he should enter the Marines? + +Mr. OSWALD. That would be correct, sir. It would be as an example. + +Mr. JENNER. You mentioned a Mr. Gregory having visited at your home. +Will you identify him, please? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe his given name, sir, is Mr. Peter Gregory, but I +am confused a little bit about his son. His son's name is Paul Gregory, +or vice versa. + +Mr. JENNER. It is Peter. + +Mr. OSWALD. Thank you. Mr. Peter Gregory came to my residence in Fort +Worth, Tex. on 7313 Davenport Street. + +Mr. JENNER. Approximately when, please? + +Mr. OSWALD. Two occasions, the first occasion being approximately the +last week in June, 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. What was that occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. He had come over to see Lee and meet Marina and talk with +them in his native Russian language. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he accompanied by anyone? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not on this first occasion, sir, if my memory serves me +correctly. I believe he was by himself. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything said in your presence that you understood, +having in mind that he spoke Russian at least in part of that occasion, +as to how he became aware that Lee and Marina were residing with you +temporarily? + +Mr. OSWALD. We were expecting Mr. Gregory to come by that night. The +preceding 2 or 3 days, I understood from Lee, that when he inquired at +one of the bureaus of the Texas employment agencies in Fort Worth, that +someone that he had talked to about a job had set up an appointment +with Lee to go see Mr. Gregory, since Lee could speak Russian and write +the Russian language, they thought perhaps Mr. Gregory might know of +some contact that he could place Lee with, where Lee might obtain a job +speaking and writing the Russian language. I understood from Lee---- + +Mr. JENNER. That is the result of discussions in your presence in your +home? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. By Lee and Marina? + +Mr. OSWALD. By Lee to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Lee to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I understood that---- + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, if you could, if it is the result of Lee having +told you, would you please state it in those terms rather than that you +understood, because your understanding may be based on hearsay that is +not the fact. + +Mr. OSWALD. Lee in our conversation told me that he went to Mr. +Gregory's office on the first occasion to meet Mr. Gregory. + +Mr. JENNER. And that would be before this last week in June when Mr. +Gregory visited your home? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. What is Mr. Gregory's profession, do you happen to know? + +Mr. OSWALD. He was a consultant geologist. On this first occasion that +Lee spent 1 or 2 hours talking with Mr. Gregory, and at the end of this +occasion, Mr. Gregory gave Lee a letter to the effect, which I did +read---- + +Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Lee exhibit this letter to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you seen the letter from the time that you read it to +the present time? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. And as far as you know the letter doesn't exist. You don't +know whether it exists? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please recite the content of it as you now recall +it? + +Mr. OSWALD. That it stated that Lee Harvey Oswald was competent to +speak and write the Russian language fluently. That is my general +remembrance of this letter. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it signed? Did it have a signature? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it did. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it on a letterhead? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe it was, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Was Mr. Gregory a Russian by origin as far as you know? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he was. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your brother tell you that? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did. + +Mr. DULLES. Was he a naturalized American, or don't you know? + +Mr. OSWALD. This I do not know, sir. But during this conversation, he +told me about Mr. Gregory to the extent that he had come from Russia +approximately---- + +Mr. DULLES. This is your brother now? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, talking to me. Approximately 40 years prior to +that time. + +Mr. JENNER. So he had been in this country for approximately 40 years? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. It was not long after that conversation in which your +brother Lee reported these things to you that Mr. Gregory visited at +your home the last week in June of 1962, is that correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, approximately the last week in June 1962. + +Mr. DULLES. Did your brother tell you where he had gotten to know Mr. +Gregory? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he had. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate that? + +Mr. OSWALD. Through the lady at the Texas employment agency. + +Mr. JENNER. He had gone to the Texas employment agency and had an +interview with that lady? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. In charge of the agency? + +Mr. OSWALD. One of the personnel working within the agency. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your brother say to you that she had suggested Mr. +Gregory as a possible source? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. With regard to employment? + +Mr. OSWALD. That she had volunteered to call Mr. Gregory on his behalf +to set up an appointment where Lee could go by and see him and talk +with him in relation to employment. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your brother indicate that that was his first +acquaintance or knowledge of the fact that a person named Peter Gregory +existed? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. + +Mr. JENNER. And he said that to you affirmatively? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. In the course of that conversation, did your brother +report to you any recommendations by the lady in charge of the agency +with respect to his contacting any other persons who were of Russian +derivation or who could or might speak Russian and be of possible +assistance to your brother in obtaining employment? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. The conversation was confined to a Mr. Peter Gregory? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And have you now given us all you can recall as to that +conversation? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have. + +Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Gregory visited your home the last week in June or +at least approximately then? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. He came alone to the best of your recollection? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And it was a visit, intended as a visit with Lee and Marina +primarily? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You were present when he came to your home? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I was. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he exhibit any acquaintance, prior acquaintance with +Lee or with Marina? + +Mr. OSWALD. He certainly recognized Lee. He did not recognize Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he introduced to her? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, he was. + +Mr. JENNER. On that occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he was. + +Mr. JENNER. In your presence? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is your impression that he was not acquainted with +her prior to that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Or she with him? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question here. Do you know of any other +close friends of Lee's? + +Mr. OSWALD. At that time, sir, I was not aware of any others. + +Mr. DULLES. The Fords you met later, I believe, did you not? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. And are they Russian or is one of them Russian? + +Mr. OSWALD. His wife is originally from Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you discover that, Mr. Oswald? + +Mr. OSWALD. That Mrs. Ford was Russian? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe Marina told me. + +Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford has asked that that subject be inquired +into also, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Won't you pursue it then if you wish, in whatever way? + +Mr. JENNER. Would you relate to us to the best of your recollection the +names of Lee's friends or associates from his return to this country in +June 1962 up to and including November 22, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. The only ones I was aware of, sir, other than members of +the family, was Mr. Peter Gregory and his son, Paul Gregory. + +Mr. JENNER. May I stop you at that moment. You say his son Paul +Gregory. Did you come to meet Paul Gregory as well as Peter? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. On some occasion subsequent to this last week in June of +'62? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you known that there was a Paul Gregory at the time +Peter Gregory visited your home in June of '62? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. He might possibly have mentioned his son at that +time, but I do not recall that he did. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't have any specific recollection of it? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you meet Paul Gregory? + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 2 or 3 days later. + +Mr. JENNER. Under what circumstances? + +Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Peter Gregory and Mr. Paul Gregory both came to the +house. + +Mr. JENNER. And this is the second occasion of Mr. Gregory being in +your home, to which you have already alluded? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was the purpose of their visit at your house on +that occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. To meet with Lee and Marina again, and to the best of +my remembrance, for his son, Paul Gregory, who was attending either +the University of Oklahoma or Oklahoma University, or Oklahoma State +University, at which he was studying the Russian language. + +And I believe at this time he stated he was a junior at the university, +and that he wanted to be around others who spoke the Russian language, +besides his father, to improve his language, or his knowledge of the +Russian language. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that stated in your presence? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it was. + +Mr. JENNER. In this case, you now identified? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. By Paul Gregory? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he attempt to converse, or converse with Lee, and/or +with Marina in Russian on that occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. He did with both. + +Mr. JENNER. And on both occasions did Peter Gregory confer or talk with +Lee and Marina or either of them or both of them in Russian? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, they did. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned or did you have notice that the +Gregorys, Paul and Peter, were to visit you on the second occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any conversation you had with your brother in +advance of that visit, or with Marina on that subject? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not recall any. + +Mr. JENNER. Are those the only two occasions that you ever saw or +talked with Peter Gregory? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. When subsequent to the second visit to your home, the first +time subsequent thereto, did you see or speak with Peter Gregory? + +Mr. OSWALD. I spoke again with Mr. Peter Gregory on Sunday morning, +November 24, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. So it was an occasion subsequent to the death of President +Kennedy? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did that take place? + +Mr. OSWALD. At Howard Johnson's Restaurant on the turnpike between Fort +Worth and Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. How did that come about? + +Mr. OSWALD. I was to meet Mr. Gregory and two Secret Service agents at +that establishment, to proceed with them from there to the Executive +Inn at Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. Who had arranged that rendezvous? + +Mr. OSWALD. By mutual consent between myself and the Secret Service +agent, Mike Howard. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howard suggested it? + +Mr. OSWALD. He suggested this as a point of rendezvous on our way to +Dallas. + +Mr. DULLES. I believe this is described in your diary, is it not? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see or speak with Peter Gregory--have you seen or +spoken with Peter Gregory at any time subsequent to this occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, first--when was that? Is it recorded in your diary? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not believe it is in my diary. + +Mr. JENNER. And when did that meeting take place? The one you now have +in mind. + +Mr. OSWALD. On three or four occasions during the week of November 25, +1963. + +Mr. JENNER. In what city or town? + +Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags, in Arlington, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. And was he visiting there? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was there voluntarily to act as an interpreter +between the United States Secret Service and Marina N. Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Subsequent to that time, have you seen or spoken with Peter Gregory? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Now, you were seeking to report to us the friends and acquaintances of +your brother and your sister-in-law subsequent to their return to the +United States in June of 1962. Now, who next in addition to Paul and +Peter Gregory? + +Mr. OSWALD. None, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. None? + +Mr. OSWALD. None. + +Mr. JENNER. Were the Fords friends of your brother Lee and your +sister-in-law Marina? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you became acquainted with them, when for the first +time? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Last Tuesday, a week ago this past Tuesday, on February +11, 1964. + +Mr. JENNER. You were unacquainted with either of them prior to that +time? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have already testified about the Paines. And you +can recall none other--no other persons? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Friend or acquaintance of either Marina or of your brother +Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. OSWALD. Other than the ones I have described. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. DULLES. Plus, of course, the Paines, whom you have already +discussed, and others you may have discussed. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any knowledge of your brother Lee's defection +or alleged defection other than that which you read in the newspapers? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. + +Mr. JENNER. And other--other than there might be a reference to that +subject in the correspondence you have produced for us? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any possible reason to believe that your +brother Lee Harvey Oswald knew Jack Ruby, or Jack Rubinstein, alias +Jack Ruby? + +Mr. OSWALD. Sir, are you asking for my opinion? + +Mr. JENNER. I am asking if you have any knowledge first--anything upon +which you can base an opinion. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. That he did or might have had an acquaintance with Jack +Ruby, or Jack Rubinstein? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. I will ask you the same question as to Officer Tippit. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I do not. + +Mr. DULLES. With regard to Jack Ruby, you hesitated a moment. + +Do you have anything else in your mind about that that you wanted to +add or could add? + +Mr. OSWALD. I just misinterpreted his question as to whether or not he +wanted my opinion, rather than any facts that I might have. + +Mr. DULLES. Well, let's ask for your opinion now. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, we will go to your opinion. + +Do you have an opinion? + +Mr. OSWALD. Based on the newspaper articles that appeared during the +week of November 25, 1963, at which time two reported employees of +Mr. Jack Ruby, a man and a woman, stated to newspaper reporters that +they had seen Lee Harvey Oswald in Mr. Ruby's establishment, known as +the Carousel Club, and also on one occasion either or both of these +reported witnesses stated that they had seen Mr. Ruby speaking to Lee +Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is on the basis of that newspaper report and only +that that you voice this opinion? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +I might further elaborate on my opinion that at various times through +various magazine articles and television programs, indicating the route +taken supposedly by my brother Lee from the place of his boarding +house, or apartment, and prior to his capture, was in a direct or +approximately a direct line to Mr. Ruby's apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with the decision which your +sister-in-law, Marina, reached not to reside with your mother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly am. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you take part in that decision, or were you present +during the course of any event that resulted in her ultimate decision? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say that that decision, sir, was 90 percent my +decision, and only 10 percent Marina N. Oswald's decision. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Now, as to that event, would you please tell us the course it took, +your participation in it, where it occurred, and as much as you now +recall about it? + +Mr. OSWALD. This took place at the Inn---- + +Mr. JENNER. Before you answer--it is not recorded in your diary, is it? + +Mr. McKENZIE. The diary would be the best evidence of that. + +Mr. JENNER. In order that I don't try to examine over 20 pages---- + +Mr. DULLES. I have just read the diary, and I do not recall it. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I don't, either. I don't believe it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Proceed. + +Mr. OSWALD. This occurred at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. Fix the time. + +Mr. OSWALD. On Thursday morning, November 28, 1963, at which time I +talked to Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. In whose presence, if anyone? + +Mr. OSWALD. If memory serves me correct, sir, in the presence of Mr. +Jim Martin, and perhaps one Secret Service agent that I cannot recall +vividly enough to identify by name. That Mr. Martin--if I may back +up, sir. We did have a Secret Service agent there. I do recall he was +Mr. Gopadze, who was acting as an interpreter. And I do believe that +Mr. Gopadze acted as an interpreter at the time when we discussed +with Marina the possibility of her moving to Mr. Jim Martin's home in +Dallas, Tex., as a permanent guest or for as long as she wished to with +her children, and I believe at this time she asked my opinion of this, +whether or not I thought this was the thing to do, and my advice to her +was that it was, and that she was going to abide by my decision that +this was the thing to do at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. This discussion occurred in the presence of these people +you have mentioned? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Included in that discussion, was the alternative of her +residing with your mother discussed? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not, because I did not look to that as an +alternative. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina--had there been any discussion +prior thereto, to your knowledge, of any possibility or suggestion by +anyone that Marina undertake residence with your mother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir, was there any discussion between +me and Marina or myself and my mother that Marina was going to reside +in her place. + +Mr. JENNER. As a possibility? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir. I might---- + +Mr. JENNER. Whether the discussion was directly with you or not, +was the subject of the possibility--it is always possible--of +Marina residing with your mother--was it raised during this period +of time? Did you know of anybody ever suggesting it, or it being +considered--apart from whether there was discussion with you directly? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, to my knowledge I was not aware of any situation +such as that. + +Mr. JENNER. I forgot now. + +Did you say Marina was present during the course of this discussion? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And did she say anything on the subject through the +interpreter? + +Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, go to the preceding day of Thursday, +November 28, 1963, to Wednesday, November 27, 1963, at which time I +was advised by Secret Service agent Mike Howard of the offer of Mr. +Jim Martin to take Marina and the children into the family, into his +family, and raise them as he would his own members of the family. I did +not discuss at first with Marina this offer. I did discuss with Mr. Jim +Martin, prior to discussing with Marina N. Oswald, this possibility. + +Mr. JENNER. This possibility being what possibility? + +Mr. OSWALD. Of Marina accepting this offer. + +Mr. JENNER. Of Mr. Martin? + +Mr. OSWALD. Of Mr. Martin's, that is correct. + +After my discussion with Mr. Martin on this question-- + +Mr. JENNER. In that discussion, were any alternatives discussed? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, there was not. It was a discussion only about Mr. +Martin's offer to her with me in the presence of two Secret Service +agents at lunch on that day, Wednesday, November 27, 1963. At the end +of that discussion. I considered in my own mind for a number of hours, +perhaps three or four hours, at which time I spoke to Marina N. Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. At the Six Flags? + +Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags, in a motel room. + +Mr. JENNER. Anybody else present? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. OSWALD. They were present in the room, but we were in a separate +room. + +Mr. JENNER. They didn't take part in the discussion? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +At which time I pointed out Mr. Martin to Marina Oswald, and related +to her as best I could at that time his offer to take Marina into his +home, and the children into his home. + +Mr. JENNER. Let me interrupt you. + +You say you pointed out Mr. Martin to your sister-in-law, Marina? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it--am I correct from that that she had not +theretofore become acquainted with him? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I believe she had, but at that time she had seen +so many people come in and out of there, that she did not remember +which man was Mr. Martin. + +And, at this time, I did point out Mr. Martin, so that she would know +him from then on. + +Mr. JENNER. Was any question raised about her residing at the home of +a person who was a complete stranger to her? And about whom you knew +little or nothing? + +Mr. OSWALD. At this time I was considering this, and I believe this was +my attempt to have Marina consider this, of moving into a home with a +complete strange family. + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, you were raising a question in your own +mind on the subject? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Up to that time of Mr. Martin's offer, not recalling anybody that I +stated it to--I assumed it my full responsibility to have Marina and +her children move into my home in Denton, Texas. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you suggested that to her? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Or to anybody else? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Had the suggestion been made to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it had not. + +Mr. DULLES. Was going back to the Paines in the picture at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. To some extent, and that was excluded entirely by me, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. For what reason? + +Mr. OSWALD. For my observations of Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Dallas +police office, as previously testified. + +Mr. JENNER. The antipathy to them that arose, or that you had when you +met Mr. Paine, and Mrs. Paine that evening? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina say anything to you on the subject, of her +desire or possibility of her residing--returning to reside with the +Paines? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did. + +Mr. JENNER. And what did she say on that subject? + +Mr. OSWALD. That she thought she could go back up to Mr. and Mrs. Paine +and live. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate that that would be entirely acceptable to +her? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Even desirable to her? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was your response to that? + +Mr. OSWALD. I indicated to her that I thought that that was not the +thing to do. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say that to her? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Affirmatively? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And what did she say in response to that? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, to the best of my memory she wanted to know +why I did not want her to return with her children to Mr. and Mrs. +Paine. + +Mr. JENNER. That is a normal response. + +What did you say to that? + +Mr. OSWALD. As best I could I indicated to her I didn't think they were +the proper or correct people for her to be associated with. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, that is a term of conclusion, Mr. Oswald. Would you +please tell us--were you more specific than that, or just say, "I don't +think they are the proper people"? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. It is very difficult. + +Mr. JENNER. Try and reconstruct this conversation as best you can. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, he is trying his best to reconstruct +the conversation, and I think he has testified to the best of his +recollection. + +Mr. DULLES. Are you tired at all? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I am not tired. Thank you, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Let me ask you one question, if I may. + +Mr. JENNER. Could he answer the question I have just put to him first? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Surely. + +Mr. OSWALD. May I, sir, in my own way? + +Mr. DULLES. Do you object to the question? + +Mr. McKENZIE. No, I don't object to it, Mr. Dulles. I don't think that +Robert being a layman knows what a conclusion is insofar as the way the +question was framed or insofar as the way it was responded to. And I +think he is trying to answer your question. + +Mr. JENNER. I don't mean to suggest otherwise. + +But the witness, as always--this is not criticism of this witness--they +do tend to speak in terms of conclusions. + +I am seeking as best you are able to do to reconstruct this event and +recite what occurred. + +Mr. DULLES. Would you restate the question, or rephrase it, whichever +you wish to do? + +Mr. JENNER. When Marina indicated to you her desire to return to the +Paines and live with the Paines, and you responded as you have now +testified, that you thought that that would be unwise, and they were +not the kind of people with whom she should reside, would you please +call on your recollection so as to state, to the extent that you can, +exactly what you said to her in that respect? + +Mr. OSWALD. My recollection of that, sir--I stated to her, because +of her limited knowledge of English, that no--perhaps with some hand +signals accompanying my "no" that this was not the thing to do. And +I perhaps pointed to myself and indicated let me help her on this +line--something of that nature, sir. + +That is the best I can do. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate to her by sign or by expression or +statement that you were suspicious of the Paines or that your reaction +of that--was that Saturday night, did you say? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, this was a Wednesday. + +Mr. JENNER. Wednesday night--had led you to have some reservations +about them? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I perhaps attempted to give her some more +indication on that. But due to the difficulty at that time of the +language barrier, and her limited English, and she, I believe, +was agreeable in accepting my explanation, no matter how brief it +was--because, at this time, she was certainly looking to me for advice +in trying to follow my wishes as best as I could get them over to her. + +Mr. DULLES. May I just add for the record that the Commission realizes +that Mr. and Mrs. Paine were separated or were living separately, and +it was probably going back to Mrs. Paine, although I understand Mr. +Paine from time to time would visit there. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is my understanding, too, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And was that the understanding at the time you gave Marina +this advice? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether Mr. Paine stayed there from time to +time, or he just visited his wife? I understand they are separated, and +not divorced. Isn't that correct? + +Mr. JENNER. That is my understanding. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is my understanding, also. + +And in answer to your question, sir, I became aware of this on Saturday +night, November 23, 1963, at the Dallas police office. + +Mr. JENNER. Aware of the separation? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. As the Paines were about to depart with Marina +and the children and my mother. And the statement was made by Mr. Paine +that he would--I believe this to be my best recollection--that he would +take them out there and return to his apartment, at which time the +looks on both my mother's and myself's faces asked the question to Mrs. +Paine, without saying anything, and she said, "Well, it is a difficult +situation, I will explain it on the way." + +Mr. JENNER. And that increased your antipathy? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did. + +Mr. JENNER. And the decision was made, as you have related then, that +Marina would reside with the Martins? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not on Wednesday night, sir. + +On Thursday, the ensuing night. + +Mr. JENNER. The following day? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have told us about that. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you had occasion to observe, did you not, the +treatment of FBI agents of your mother, at least in your presence? +Their attitude towards her and their treatment of her? + +Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I do not recall any FBI agents in the presence of my +mother. + +Mr. JENNER. You do not? + +Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir--I believe you have reference to the United +States Secret Service agents there. + +Mr. JENNER. No. I was going to ask you that. But Representative Ford +has a question which he has limited, however, to the FBI, so I did want +to cover that. + +You have no basis for an opinion, then, as to the treatment of your +mother, Marguerite, accorded to her by the--by FBI agents? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. You might have an opinion, but you have no--well, I will +withdraw that. + +Now, I ask you, likewise, with respect to the Secret Service agents. + +Mr. OSWALD. There was some friction with one agent and my mother, whom +she seemed to resent very harshly, any time this agent spoke to her. + +Mr. JENNER. You used the word "harshly." Does that include "unjustly" +in your opinion? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it would not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you share the opinion that the Secret Service agent you +have in mind was treating her harshly? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I would not be of that opinion. And the Secret +Service agent in question here is Mr. Charlie Kunkel. + +Mr. JENNER. During this period, did you have a good impression of him? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Having in mind all of the circumstances, and the stresses, +and his duties, do you have an opinion as to whether he accorded her +normal and expected courtesy and proper treatment? + +Mr. OSWALD. Only on one occasion I might have a hesitation to give +a positive answer to that, sir. This occurred at the Inn of the Six +Flags, in Arlington, Texas. As Mr. Kunkel was going out the front +door one day--I do not recall the day--I would say this would be +approximately Wednesday, November 27, 1963--there was a brief exchange +at the doorway between Mr. Kunkel and my mother, of which I am +attempting to recall, at which time my mother stated to him to the best +of my remembrance, that "Please, sir, don't say anything to me at all." + +And Mr. Kunkel's reply was--and he was irritated--that he would not +unless he had to, and for her not to please say anything to him. + +And that was the end of that. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the only harshness, if you would call it harshness, +that you observed occurring between any Secret Service agent and your +mother? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Your mother has made an assertion before the Commission +that she believes that the FBI should have interviewed her, and she +asserts that the FBI did not interview her. + +Do you have any information on that subject? + +Mr. OSWALD. Are we referring to the period of the week of November 25, +sir? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. May I have your question again, please? + +(The reporter read the pending question.) + +Mr. OSWALD. During the week of November 25, 1963, my mother, Mrs. +Marguerite C. Oswald, was not interviewed by FBI agents. + +I might add nor myself by the FBI agents. + +And the only person out there, to my knowledge, that was interviewed by +the FBI agents was Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. + +Mr. DULLES. You had been interviewed, though, at a previous time by FBI +agents, had you not? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. I think that is indicated in your diary. + +Mr. JENNER. I will touch on that subject in due course. + +But Representative Boggs' area of questioning is confined to your +mother. Do you have any--do you know why the FBI did not interview your +mother? + +Mr. OSWALD. The FBI did not arrive at the Inn of the Six Flags in +Arlington, Texas, until, to the best of my memory, Wednesday, November +27, 1963. There is a possibility this might have been Tuesday, November +26th. But I do believe it was Wednesday. + +And their purpose of coming out there at that time, as stated to me +by a United States Secret Service man, Mike Howard, was to interview +Marina N. Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. And did they do so? + +Mr. OSWALD. They did, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And did they interview your mother? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they interview you? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not. + +If I may, sir--in reply to your question whether or not they +interviewed Mrs. Marina N. Oswald at that time, they attempted to +interview her at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there an interpreter present? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, there was. It was Mr. Lee Gopadze of the United +States Secret Service. + +Mr. JENNER. And you emphasize the word "attempt". Would you describe +the circumstances and what occurred? + +Mr. OSWALD. When the FBI agents arrived there--I can identify one of +them as a Mr. Brown, even though I know there are two or three Mr. +Browns that I have met in the FBI--I do not know his initials--the +other man I cannot remember his name. When the two agents and Mr. +Gopadze came in, Marina immediately identified or recognized one of the +agents who she had talked to before, and it is my understanding now, at +the Paines' home in Irving, Texas. + +Mr. JENNER. When? + +Mr. OSWALD. It is my understanding some time in the early part of 1963, +sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And did Marina state that, or did someone state that in +your presence? + +Mr. OSWALD. This came to my knowledge, sir, after the departure of the +FBI agents on this particular day. + +Mr. JENNER. Through what source? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, through, to the best of my memory--through +Mr. Lee Gopadze, who acted as an interpreter. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present when you were afforded that information? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe she was, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And did she have an aversion to being interviewed by the +FBI agent on this occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did. + +Mr. JENNER. And she expressed that aversion? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the reason given in your presence? + +Mr. OSWALD. That she did not---- + +Mr. JENNER. Was it--yes or no? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. By whom; Mr. Gopadze, by interpretation, interpreting +Marina? + +Mr. OSWALD. There, again, sir, this was knowledge given to me after +their departure. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes--but through what source did you obtain it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Through Mr. Gopadze, in the presence of Marina Oswald. + +And other Secret Service agents. + +Mr. JENNER. And what did he say as to her aversion? + +Mr. OSWALD. That Marina had recognized this one FBI agent as a man who +had come to the Paines' home in Irving, Texas, and perhaps at another +location where they might have lived in Dallas, or the surrounding +territory, and had questioned Lee on these occasions. + +Mr. JENNER. In the home? + +Mr. OSWALD. In or outside of the home. I do not know whether it took +place on the inside--but within the immediate grounds of the home, at +least. + +Mr. DULLES. And was this early in 1963? Prior, anyway, to November 22, +1963, was it not? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. And that this particular one +agent--not the Mr. Brown I have referred to, but the other gentleman +that I do not recall his name--she had an aversion to speaking to +him because she was of the opinion that he had harassed Lee in his +interviews, and my observation of this at this time, at this particular +interview, was attempting to start--I would say this was certainly so. +His manner was very harsh, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Harsh towards Marina? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it most certainly was. And by the tone of +conversation by Marina to Mr. Gopadze, who was interpreting---- + +Mr. JENNER. In your presence? + +Mr. OSWALD. In my presence. And the tone of the reply between this +gentleman and Mr. Gopadze, and back to Marina, it was quite evident +there was a harshness there, and that Marina did not want to speak to +the FBI at that time. And she was refusing to. And they were insisting, +sir. And they implied in so many words, as I sat there--if I might +state--with Secret Service Agent Gary Seals, of Mobile, Ala.--we were +opening the first batch of mail that had come to Marina and Lee's +attention, and we were perhaps just four or five feet away from where +they were attempting this interview, and it came to my ears that they +were implying that if she did not cooperate with the FBI agent there, +that this would perhaps--I say, again, I am implying--in so many words, +that they would perhaps deport her from the United States and back to +Russia. + +I arose and called Mr. Mike Howard of the United States Secret Service +into the back bathroom, and stated this to him. And I also stated that +I realized there was some friction here between the United States +Secret Service and the FBI to the extent that I was of the opinion +that they did not want the FBI at that time to be aware of the tape +recording that had been made of Marina N. Oswald, that she had been +interviewed, in other words, by the United States Secret Service before +the FBI arrived at the location. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean that the Secret Service did not want the FBI to +know that they had taped an interview with Marina? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What was his response? + +Mr. OSWALD. He said, "Robert, I cannot tell you what to do." + +I did ask him if he would go over there to speak to him, and kind of +tone it down--if they were going to get anything out of her, they would +not get it that way. + +And he said he would speak to her. + +Approximately, at this time, the telephone rang, and he had to speak on +the telephone. + +I returned to my chair at the table where we were still opening mail, +and again for the second time, the same implication was brought out. + +Mr. JENNER. By the FBI agents? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. To Marina? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. In your presence? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. They spoke English? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the interpreter whom you named--was he participating? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. It was from the FBI agent, the other gentleman, +not named Brown, to Mr. Gopadze, to Mrs. Oswald, from Mrs. Oswald back +to Mr. Gopadze to the other gentleman. + +Mr. JENNER. Proceed. + +Mr. OSWALD. On the second occurrence of this implication, of the same +implication, I arose again, and Mr. Howard was walking across the room, +and I stopped him, and I told him for the second time, or requested for +the second time that he please say something to them about that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you speak loudly enough to be overheard? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I just asked Mr. Howard to please inform the FBI +that she had, to the contrary, been very cooperative from the time she +had been out there, up until their arrival. And, again, I referred +to Mr. Howard the reference there of perhaps the friction, or the +condition that I assumed, that they did not want the FBI aware of the +tape recording at this time. + +And his reply to me, he said, "Robert, do what you want to do. You +certainly absolutely are free to say anything you want to say." + +Mr. JENNER. And did you? + +Mr. OSWALD. I certainly did, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you say? You went over to the agent? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I went over to Mr. Brown, the agent I knew, +who was sitting at the end of the coffee table--it was a large round +coffee table. And I sat there, and I spoke to him without saying so +much about--anything about the tape recording. I did say to him--and I +was shaking my finger at him, sir, I might say that--that I resented +the implications that they were passing on to Marina, because of her +apparent uncooperative attitude. + +Mr. JENNER. Supposed, you mean? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +And that I knew for a fact that she had been very cooperative and +highly cooperative. + +And I returned to my chair at the table. + +They attempted for another 5 or 10 minutes to interview Marina Oswald +at that time, at which time Mr. Brown--he left the immediate area of +interviewing there, and came over and started speaking to me. + +I do not recall what our conversation was. I think perhaps it was on +what had transpired out there prior to their arrival. + +As the other gentlemen arose---- + +Mr. JENNER. Transpired where, prior to their arrival? + +Mr. OSWALD. Out at the Inn of the Six Flags, prior to the arrival of +the FBI agents. + +And as the other FBI agent arose rather disgustedly to end the +attempted interview, he walked to the door, opened the door, and spoke +very harshly to Mr. Brown, who was just kneeling down in front of +me--he said, "Just cut it off right there, Mr. Brown." + +Mr. Brown indicated he wanted to talk to me some more. He just motioned +to him to cut it off right here. + +Mr. Brown left and went outside with him. + +About 2 minutes later Mr. Brown appeared again, and asked me to come +outside, which I did. And then the agent apologized to me. He said +he thought I was one of the police officers out there and not Robert +Oswald--he was not aware of who I was. At which time we went into the +adjoining set of rooms, in the presence of both agents, and Mr. Brown +asked me if--it was his understanding that Marina had been interviewed +and had been cooperative prior to their arrival out there, and I said +this was so. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the Secret Service mentioned as having interviewed her? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. The only expression was that, had she been interviewed. + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. Brown did use the term had she been interviewed. And my reply, I +believe, verbatim would be--my answer to that question, sir, is yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And the Secret Service, as the interviewers, had been +mentioned? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. By you? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. By Mr. Brown? + +Mr. OSWALD. Implied, sir, by Mr. Brown. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the end of that incident? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford has a notation here to obtain from you +all the details on when you knew that your brother Lee wished to return +from Russia, and you have given us those details, have you not? The +information and knowledge came to you through the correspondence which +now has been identified and admitted in the record? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And you had no other source? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with your mother with respect +to supplying funds--either her doing so or your doing so--to your +brother Lee when he was in Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. My mother did write me on one occasion, sir, requesting +that---- + +Mr. JENNER. This is while he was in Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. I believe at this time she was residing in +Crowell, Texas. + +Mr. JENNER. She wrote you a note? + +Mr. OSWALD. Stating that if I wanted to help Lee in any way, that I had +to go through her to do it to the extent that she was going to handle +everything, and that she was demanding--and that was the word she used +in the letter--that I do so. + +Mr. JENNER. That you do what? + +Mr. OSWALD. Send any funds that I might want to send to Lee to her, to +forward to Lee. + +This I did not do, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Can you fix, approximately, when you received that letter? + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately July or August of 1961, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Other than that letter, did you have any--well, in addition +to the letter, did you ever have a discussion with your mother on the +subject matter of supplying funds for your brother while he was in +Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. And she had none with you, and none occurred in your +presence? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not. + +Mr. JENNER. What part, if any, did you play in assisting, if you did +assist, your brother Lee in his making of repayments of the funds he +had borrowed from the State Department? + +Mr. OSWALD. I did not assist him in any way, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. He did not request it? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. He wanted to do this on his own. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss that subject with him? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And did he so express himself? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you offer to help him? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And he refused? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. At any time--let us confine it first to the period that +your brother resided with you in your home, upon his return from +Russia--did he express to you any opinion or make any comment on his +regard for, or affection for, or lack of affection for, or regard for +Marina? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the subject ever discussed between you during that +month that he was at your home? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the subject ever discussed at any time thereafter? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion--obviously, you did--to observe the +relationship between your brother Lee and your sister-in-law Marina, in +their--as husband and wife? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did observe that. + +Mr. JENNER. And would you please state what you observed in that +respect? + +Mr. OSWALD. I felt on two or three occasions that Lee's tone of voice +to Marina--not understanding what was being said--but by the general +tone of voice, that he was being overbearing or forceful. + +Mr. JENNER. Inconsiderate? + +Mr. OSWALD. Sir? + +Mr. JENNER. Inconsiderate? + +Mr. OSWALD. Inconsiderate. + +Mr. JENNER. Of her? + +Mr. OSWALD. Of her--some little thing she might want to do. I say some +little thing--something that she was going to do there at the house or +something, or was doing--I don't recall any specific incident. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you recall her reaction? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. DULLES. What was it? + +Mr. OSWALD. It was usually silence. + +Mr. JENNER. Usually what, sir? + +Mr. OSWALD. Silence. + +Mr. JENNER. A silence that indicated resentment on her part, or +rejection on her part, of comments your brother was making to her? + +Mr. OSWALD. Generally, sir, I formed my opinion by the expression on +her face, and her reaction as indicated, that it was not very pleasing +to her to be perhaps reprimanded. + +Mr. JENNER. In the presence of somebody else? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us, if you will, please, from your observation of your +brother and Marina, during all of the period of time up to and through +Thanksgiving of 1962, her attitude towards your brother in the normal +course. + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, it would be described as just a normal +attitude of a wife to a husband. They seemed affectionate--both of them +appeared to be--and I believe this still to be so--very affectionate to +the baby June Lee Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is your opinion, based on your observation during +this period of time, up to and including August of 19--Thanksgiving +Day 1962--it is your opinion that they led a reasonably normal married +life, having in mind all the problems that were facing them? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your brother ever discuss with you any incident in +which he thought that Marina had been guilty of some misconduct--I +don't mean sexual misconduct, but did he complain about her conduct? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Any kind or character, at any time? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there ever a discussion in your presence by anyone, +including your brother and/or your sister-in-law, on the subject of his +having physically harmed her? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not. + +Mr. JENNER. The subject was never discussed in your presence? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. By anyone? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your attention at any time prior to November +23, 1962, or November 22, 1963, that your brother had inflicted some +physical harm on your sister-in-law? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see her when she had darkened eyes, as though +a black eye had been inflicted upon her? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Or any other physical injury? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Your mother, in her appearance before the Commission, has +stated, and implied, at least, that your sister-in-law Marina could +understand English and could read English--let's confine it to the +period up to and including November 22, 1963. + +What is your opinion on that subject? + +Mr. OSWALD. It is my opinion even now, sir, if I may go a little bit +further, that her understanding of the English language is less than +what it appears to be. She does not understand a considerable amount +that she, by her actions, appears to understand. This has come to my +attention since her visit to Washington. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean since she appeared before the Commission? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +She does not grasp enough, and by this I mean, sir, to any +extent--perhaps it might be best if I compared that with my experience +with my children, approximately a three or four year old--if that much. + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, do I fairly state that your testimony, even +to the present time, and including all of the period preceding the +present time, in your contacts with her, it is your opinion that she +has a very limited command of the English language, whether you speak +in terms of reading or understanding or speaking? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +I might further qualify that, sir--that she could perhaps speak more +English words than she can read or understand. + +Mr. JENNER. And you do not, therefore, share your mother's expressed +view and opinion that she understands the English language to a greater +extent than, to use the vernacular--than she lets on? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your mother mention to you or has your mother mentioned +to you at any time any--or asserted any claims on her part, that there +were any stolen documents, either stolen from her or stolen from anyone +else, that would be relevant to this matter? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she has not. + +Mr. DULLES. Has he spoken to you about the disposition of funds that +might have come without a clear address or indication as to for whom +they were intended as between herself and Marina? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she has not. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Oswald, when your brother returned from Russia, +was there ever an occasion, to the time of his death, when he discussed +with you the subject as to why he had returned from Russia? This is, +apart from the correspondence. Did you ever have a discussion with him +on that subject, or he with you, or a discussion that occurred in your +presence? + +Mr. OSWALD. None, sir, that I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever? + +Mr. OSWALD. None. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, is that likewise true of your sister-in-law? Did she +ever discuss it in your presence, or with you? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; at no time has she. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever inquire of either of them on that subject? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time discussing it. + +Mr. JENNER. Nor were you present at any time when anyone else ever +inquired of either of them on that subject, up to and including +November 23, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it from previous questions that you have no +knowledge of Marina ever having had a black eye or being otherwise +molested or beaten by your brother, or anyone else. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Were members of your family together, including Marina, to +celebrate, to the extent it might have been celebrated, Christmas of +1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. Christmas of 1963, sir? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry--I misinterpreted that. + +Christmas of 1963--Christmas Eve of 1963 my wife and I and my children +traveled from our home in Denton to the Martin's residence in Dallas, +Texas, and spent Christmas Eve, or the biggest part of that day, with +Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you remain over to Christmas Day? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your mother present on Christmas Eve while you were +there? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether she was invited to attend? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not. + +Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, she didn't know you were attending +there on Christmas Eve, is that correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that occurred during the time of +your visit on Christmas Eve, 1963, of your mother? Was she mentioned? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether the Secret Service +kept your sister-in-law Marina secluded against her will following +November 22, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. I have an opinion, sir, that they did not keep her secluded. + +Mr. JENNER. Then you do not--all right. + +Representative Ford is particularly concerned as to how stable a person +your mother is, which would be of interest, of course, I must tell +you, to the Commission, in judging the weight they might give to her +testimony. And while I did ask you some questions on that subject this +afternoon, would you give us your opinion on that? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, I would refer to my prior testimony on that. + +Mr. JENNER. Nothing has occurred since that you would seek to elaborate +upon that? + +Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps one thing, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. OSWALD. That occurred during the week of December 2, 1963. It came +to my attention from my wife, during the latter part of that week, that +my mother said on one occasion, when I talked to her over the phone, a +phone call that she had originated from her home in Fort Worth, Texas, +while the Secret Service agents were still present with her, as they +were in my home in Denton, Texas, that she turned around at the end of +the conversation and said that I requested that they leave her home. +And this, to my knowledge, was the reason why they left my mother's +home prior to the time they ever left my home. And, as a matter of +fact, some of the agents that were at my mother's home came out to +Denton to stay at my home. And one of them had conveyed to my wife what +was said that night. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is an additional factor affecting your opinion as +to the stability of your mother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Which leads you to the view that she, since this tragic +event, she is not as stable as she was prior thereto? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now---- + +Mr. OSWALD. And I might add, sir--I don't believe I stated this. I, of +course, did not request that the agents be removed from my mother's +residence. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. + +You have testified to ownership of rifles. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you still own a rifle? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you own and possess a rifle--I will withdraw that. + +Did you ever take a rifle to the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, +Tex.? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did anybody ever take any firearm owned by you or possessed +by you and take it to the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they have not. + +Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of you, Mr. McKenzie--I have a question here +dealing with the nature of Marina's contract--if there is still one +between Robert, Marina, and Thorne. + +Do we have that contract? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, it is in evidence and has been given an exhibit +number. + +And I might also state that I have just left Mr. Rankin's office where +I was contacted by long distance telephone from my office in Dallas, +Tex., and had a letter read to me over the telephone that Mr. Thorne +has sent to Marina Oswald at the home of Mr. Declan P. Ford, in Dallas. +Tex., to the effect that he has had and received a letter from me, but +regardless of my letter to him, that she cannot unilaterally cancel +his contract, and that his contract is one that is coupled with an +interest and that it would be to her best interest to immediately +contact him directly in order that certain probate papers may be filed +in connection with the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, to establish her +community interest under the laws of the State of Texas in the estate +of Lee Harvey Oswald; and, further that there was some $7,000 being +held for Marina Oswald in Fort Worth, Tex., subject to the payment of +$100 by Marina N. Oswald, and that likewise there were other business +contracts needed to be affirmed or discussed with Marina Oswald by Mr. +Thorne. + +I might add in that connection that I have instructed my office to have +Marina Oswald bring the letter to my office this afternoon or this +evening, have a photostatic copy made of Mr. Thorne's letter, and I +further instructed my office to contact Mr. Thorne by mail, certified +mail, return receipt requested, and requesting in such letter to have +Mr. Thorne contact me directly relative to the representation of Marina +Oswald. + +And I have directed a copy of that letter to be sent to the Grievance +Committee of the Dallas Bar Association. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it there at least was, and there is a dispute about +it at the moment, as to whether it is still legally effective, an +agreement between, or a contract between Marina on the one hand and +Robert Martin and Thorne on the other. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, Mr. Jenner. And all of those agreements are in the +record, and have been produced. + +And I might also say that Marina Oswald had placed both Messrs. Thorne +and Martin on notice that she has discharged them as her attorney +and business agent, respectively, and, further, that I have likewise +notified them since Mrs. Oswald has turned the matter over to me. + +And, further, for the purpose of the record, I will state that Mrs. +Oswald has paid me the sum of $25, which is not my usual fee, to +represent her as a retainer. + +Mr. JENNER. And you do represent her? + +Mr. McKENZIE. And I do represent her, and do not desire one dime out of +any contributions that she may have received by anyone for the benefit +of herself or her children, nor would I accept same. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a written contract with her? + +Mr. McKENZIE. I have no written contract with her. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina knows or can use or understand +any language other than Russian, and other than English, to the extent +that she is able to use and understand it? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I do know that she knows a little French. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is the extent of your information on the subject? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. How do you know that she knows a little French? + +Mr. OSWALD. During her recent stay at my home in Denton, Tex.---- + +Mr. JENNER. How recent was that? Just a few days ago? + +Mr. OSWALD. Within the past 10 days to two weeks--I believe this was +brought about, to the best of my recollection, due to a television +commercial with a little French involved. I gave my total French +vocabulary of parlez vouz Français, or something, and she replied to +that. And we asked her did she speak French, and she said four or five +other words, and she said that was about all of it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your brother ever speak to you or raise the subject of +his jealousy or possible jealousy concerning Marina and any other man +or men? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. And did any discussion of that subject or possible subject +ever take place in your presence by anybody? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know any of the following members of the Russian +emigré group? I will omit those you have already identified. + +George Bouhe? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard of that name? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. Teofil Meller? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard the name before? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. Elena Hall? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard the name before? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Frank H. Ray? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you heard that name or know of it during the lifetime +of your brother Lee? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. You became acquainted with that name, with that person, +subsequent to his death? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with her? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I am. + +Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances, and when? + +Mr. OSWALD. On February 19, 1964, I went to Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford's +home from Denton, Tex., on my way to Washington, D.C., to visit with +Marina briefly, and on arrival there Mrs. Ray--and I feel like this is +the same one--was babysitting with the youngest child of Lee Harvey and +Marina N. Oswald. Also, Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford's child and her own +child. And I had a cup of coffee and waited on a taxicab. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the extent of your acquaintance with her? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the first time you ever saw or met or heard of her? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. To the best of your information, did Marina ever tease your +brother Lee in public? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she, in your presence, or to your knowledge, through +other means ever make fun of his ideas? Deprecate his ideas? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she ever, in your presence, ever make any comments with +respect to your brother's sexual power? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of sex as between your brother and Marina +ever discussed? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you know whether any remarks of that nature were +made by anyone, including Marina, to or in the presence of your wife, +Vada? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Has anyone or did anyone during the lifetime of your +brother ever discuss or raise the subject with you? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever during all the period of your brother's +lifetime, ever hear any discussion? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. On that subject? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you record in your memorandum, diary, all of the +course of events of November 22, 1963, in which you took any part? In +particular, your visit to the police station on November 22d. + +What I am getting at, Mr. Oswald--if what you have written in your +memorandum represents your best and sharpest recollection of the course +of events recorded there as of the time you wrote that--that may +satisfy the gentleman who wished that inquiry to be made. + +Mr. OSWALD. Referring to the time I arrived at the Dallas police +station? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. On the night of November 22, 1963? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Is there anything---- + +Mr. JENNER. And any other visits that you made on the 23d or 24th. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Other than what is in your diary, is there anything else +you could add to it in the way of expanding on what is in your diary? + +Mr. Chairman, also in the interests of a chronological and connected +record, having in mind the context of the record when it is read, may I +suggest that the memorandum diary which we have identified and admitted +in evidence, be set forth in full in the transcript? + +Mr. DULLES. I think it would be useful to do that. + +Mr. JENNER. I think this would be a good point to do that. I will ask +Mr. Oswald a few things. + +Have you recorded in your notebook how the assassination of the +President first came to your attention, where you were, where you +proceeded from that point on, and what occurred with respect to the +subject matter really from minute to minute or hour to hour throughout +the course of the day? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. And all of your conversations and your contacts with +anyone during the course of the day having relation to the subject +matter of the assassination of President Kennedy on that day? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I do. + +Mr. JENNER. And the subsequent arrest of your brother and your visit to +the City Jail? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that likewise true--that is a detailed recording of +the course of events as you participated in them on the 23d and 24th of +November? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. McKenzie has kindly asked a question that I would +wish also to join in and put to you. + +Having glanced through the memorandum again, or read it--is there +anything you wish to add to any of the recordings that you have made in +your notebook? + +Mr. OSWALD. Well---- + +Mr. JENNER. That is that you might have been stimulated during the +course of the questioning yesterday and today to recall, that you did +not recall at the time you made those entries? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--not to the entries or material that is already in +here. Of course this is not complete to the extent it is my intention +to complete at least as fully as I possibly can the entire week out at +the Inn of the Six Flags--and possibly other events that has occurred +to me since that time that would be more in the nature of a personal +nature than anything that perhaps the Commission would be interested +in. However, I might say that any time that I do complete this, I would +certainly turn it over to the Commission, if they or my attorney deemed +it necessary. + +Mr. JENNER. If you elaborate further on your memorandum, as I +understand, you will supply the Commission with a copy, and with your +willingness also to exhibit the original of what you add to it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir, we shall. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, you have read the memorandum. It does purport +to state in some detail and accuracy the course of events of the 22d, +23d, and 24th, and during that week. + +Was there anything in the course of your reading that memorandum that +might have led you to pose any further questions of the witness? + +Mr. DULLES. No, I think not at this time. I would have to go over it +again and I will do that. But, at this time--it seemed to me, as I read +it, to cover the area you have indicated. + +I, of course, cannot myself judge the completeness of it. But it seems +to cover the points that I would have questioned the witness on if I +had not had the diary available. + +Mr. JENNER. There is this feature. Mr. Liebeler and I have not examined +the memorandum in depth with a view as to whether any thing said in it +would stimulate us to ask further questions. I read it last night, but +not with a view in mind of asking additional questions. + +Mr. DULLES. Well, I read it from the same angle. I read it during these +proceedings, and, therefore, I was distracted from time to time. I +think it is a very helpful memorandum from the point of view of the +Commission. + +Do you wish to--it has been introduced in evidence. + +Mr. JENNER. It is in the record. + +Mr. DULLES. But do you wish it put in this record? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, I would like to have it recited in full in the +record. And as I recall, you agreed, Mr. Oswald, to dictate--to take +the memorandum and dictate it aloud on a tape, and Mr. McKenzie will +forward the tape to us. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have so agreed. + +Mr. DULLES. And when you do forward it, would you kindly advise us at +that time if there is anything on a rereading of this memorandum which +you would like to supplement or add which you feel will be essential +for the Commission to have, or desirable for the Commission to have? + +Mr. OSWALD. I will certainly do so, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And, further, Mr. Dulles, in the event that any of the +attorneys representing or working with the Commission see fit to be +in Dallas in the course of the investigation of the Commission, with a +little notice Mr. Oswald will be glad to appear and talk with them at +any time. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you. + +And it is, of course, possible that we might wish to recall you. I am +not at all sure, and I hope that will not be necessary. But we always +have to reserve that for the Commission. + +Mr. JENNER. There may be other witnesses who will say things upon which +we would like your testimony. + +For the period recorded in the memorandum, and the events recorded in +the memorandum, the recordings are full and complete, is that correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And if you wish, or should determine to add to it, it will +be with respect to matters that have occurred subsequently to those +events recorded in the memorandum? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. McKENZIE. With one exception, Mr. Jenner. In the event there is +some recollection or something that is recalled to his mind, he would +likewise add that to the memorandum. + +Mr. DULLES. I will direct that a photostat of Commission's Exhibit 323 +describing the events of November 22, 1963, and immediately following +days insofar as concerns the witness be incorporated in the record at +this point. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 323 for +identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. Have you spoken to any member of the Dutz Murret family in +New Orleans since November 22, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. What knowledge do you have as to the cause of the split +between your sister-in-law, Marina, and Ruth Paine? + +Mr. OSWALD. The cause of that split, sir---- + +Mr. JENNER. What knowledge do you have of the split, first? + +Mr. OSWALD. Full knowledge of the split, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Will you tell us about it? What led to it and---- + +Mr. OSWALD. Under my advice to Marina Oswald I requested that she sever +all connections with Mr. and Mrs. Paine. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you give that advice and make that request? + +Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this the same occasion about which you have already +testified, and which consideration was being given, to whether your +sister-in-law Marina would reside with the Martins rather than with the +Paines? + +Mr. OSWALD. This was the first occasion, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it then from your present testimony, just answering +my present questions, that the discussion went beyond the question +whether Marina would reside with the Paines as distinguished from the +Martins, and when I say beyond, it went to the question of whether +Marina would have anything to do with the Paines thereafter. + +Am I correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not fully, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Will you please explain? + +Mr. OSWALD. To the extent that the question arose whether or not after +our first agreement that she would not live with the Paines, that +question never has been brought up again. The question has come up from +Mrs. Marina Oswald. The time I fix this second query or inquiry from +her was approximately December 20 or 21, 1963, at which time we were +advised that Mrs. Paine had written her a letter or letters requesting +that she contact Mrs. Paine. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the date? + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately December 20 or December 21. + +Mr. JENNER. Marina advised you that Mrs. Ruth Paine had written her. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Had written her, Marina? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Asking Marina to do what? + +Mr. OSWALD. To contact Mrs. Paine; that Mrs. Paine wanted to speak +with her. I do not recall any specific reference as to what she had to +speak to her about. She just wanted to speak to Marina Oswald. She did +not reply to these letters. She asked me would it be all right in my +opinion for her to call her on the phone. + +I recommended that she did not talk to Mrs. Paine at all nor answer her +letters and to my knowledge this request has been done. + +Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your knowledge, is that right? + +Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my knowledge she has not contacted Mr. or +Mrs. Paine. + +Mr. JENNER. She has followed your admonition or advice to have no +contact whatever with Mrs. Paine? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Or to permit Mrs. Paine to have any contact with her, +Marina? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. May I ask a question right there, please? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, your testimony is from the best of your +knowledge, is that correct, insofar as any contact with the Paines or +Mrs. Paine is concerned? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And if the Paines have contacted Marina Oswald or if +Marina Oswald has contacted the Paines, do you or do you not know of +any such contact? + +Mr. OSWALD. I am not aware of any such contact. + +Mr. McKENZIE. All right, sir. Proceed. + +Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to the month of October, 1962 for a +moment. Were you aware that your sister-in-law Marina was living with +Elena Hall at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. October, 1962, sir? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. One moment, please. + +No, sir. I was not aware of that. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of where your brother Lee was living in the +month of October, 1962? + +Mr. OSWALD. Only to the city in which he was living. + +Mr. JENNER. And what city was that? + +Mr. OSWALD. Dallas, Tex., sir. If I might ask, sir, can you fix the +date in October, 1962 when Marina Oswald was reported living with Mrs. +Hall? + +Mr. JENNER. No, I can't at the moment. But neither Marina nor your +brother was residing in Fort Worth at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they were not. + +Mr. JENNER. From your previous testimony I gather that you did not +know the whereabouts of your brother Lee other than that it was, you +supposed, somewhere in Dallas? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +If I might make one correction, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. OSWALD. Referring to the postcard received from Lee Oswald post +dated October 10, 1962 in Dallas, Tex., I recall receiving this two +days after he had moved from Fort Worth, Tex., so it would be the first +part of October of 1962 they were residing in Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER, All right, with the exception of that. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it you are not in the habit of retaining personal +correspondence you receive from others? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not. + +Mr. JENNER. I think you have explained why you retained the particular +correspondence that you produced for us, that it was from your brother +while he was in Russia. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And after he returned you received some correspondence and +you retained that as well. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did the somewhat abrupt change in the attitude of your +brother Lee toward the United States come as a surprise to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. You are referring to the period in 1959? + +Mr. JENNER. I am. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the letters of May 5 and May 31 and those that +followed. But that change, and his desire to return to the United +States, did come as a surprise to you, is that correct, sir? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Are you asking about his return to the United States or +his going to Russia? + +Mr. JENNER. No, sir, his return to the United States, his change of +attitude. + +Mr. OSWALD. It was quite a surprise to me that he wished to return to +the United States from Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the change in attitude toward the United States as +expressed first in the letters of November 8 and November 26, 1959, +and then the series of letters that commenced in the spring of 1961 a +surprise to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not a surprise to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you explain both of your answers. + +Mr. OSWALD. There, sir, I felt like in the due course he would +certainly change his mind and opinion of the U.S.S.R., and I felt very +strongly that after a period of so many months or a year or two that he +would change his mind and return to the United States. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, prior to your brother's leaving Russia to return to +the United States, that is actually a day or two before, if not the day +before they left Minsk for Moscow, in May of 1962, your brother Lee +outlined his projected route by return to the United States. He spoke +in that letter of leaving from England and arriving in New Orleans. + +Mr. OSWALD. I beg your pardon, sir? + +Mr. JENNER. There is a difference in the route actually taken. Did +you ever discuss with Lee why that change in route occurred? Are you +seeking that May letter? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. + +Mr. JENNER. It is probably the 22d of May and that is Exhibit 318. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have the letter before me. You are referring to +the letter of May 22, 1962? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, it would appear from the notation handed to me. Is +there any discussion in that letter about the route of his return, +projected return, to the United States? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is. + +Mr. JENNER. What does it say, please? + +Mr. OSWALD. "Well, we have finally gotten the word from the U.S. +Embassy and shall leave for Moscow tomorrow. We will be 10 to 14 days +in Moscow and then leave for England where we shall board a ship for +America. The transatlantic trip will take another two weeks or so." + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the fact is that they did go to Moscow and then to +Holland, and boarded a ship at Holland, and as you say touched England +and then went directly to the United States. + +Did you ever discuss with your brother that change in route? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. And I did fail to read further on down +where it does refer to, as he put it, "will actually arrive in America +probably in New Orleans." + +Mr. JENNER. He actually arrived in New York City. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. That subject matter was never discussed by you with him? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Or by him in your presence? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Or by Marina? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. With you or in your presence? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you related, during the course of the day and +yesterday, called our attention to all of the correspondence between +yourself and your brother from the time of his return to the United +States in June of 1962 to and through November 22, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. According to our records you and your wife, Vada, or either +or both of you, had the following contacts with the FBI during the +lifetime of your brother Lee. I direct your attention first, to the +possibility of refreshing your recollection, to the date of April 27, +1960. + +Were you interviewed by an FBI agent on that day, and would the name +Fain serve to refresh your recollection on that score? + +Mr. OSWALD. It certainly does, sir. I cannot recall the date of our +interview or our conversation. + +Mr. JENNER. This would be in the spring, let us say, of 1960. I have +given you the date. Does that sound right to you, April 27, 1960. + +Mr. OSWALD. It sounds approximately right, sir, because I do recall I +just started my employment with the Acme Brick Company in Fort Worth on +the 18th of April, 1960. + +I do not believe that it was that close to my date of employment with +the Acme Brick Company. I feel like it would have been perhaps 20 or 30 +days later. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Subject to that, do you recall the interview, is the name familiar to +you as being the gentleman who interviewed you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And what inquiries did Mr. Fain make of you? What subject +matter, first. + +Mr. OSWALD. He was inquiring as to whether or not I had heard from my +brother Lee Harvey Oswald recently, I believe that is the way it was +put. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he at that time inquire of you on the subject matter of +your brother's defection? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not to my remembrance, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. By subject matter, do you mean reason? + +Mr. JENNER. Reason or the fact that he had defected or what he might +have known about his defection. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not believe he did. + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't discuss that. According to your recollection, +there was no discussion of that subject? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of the possibility of your being contacted +by any Soviet officials discussed? + +Mr. OSWALD. It was discussed not in the term of Soviet officials. In +case any---- + +Mr. JENNER. Any representative. + +Mr. OSWALD. Any Communist Party member or so forth along that line +contacted me, I assured him I would certainly, if necessary, take care +of myself or if I had time report it to his attention. + +Mr. JENNER. You would report all contacts to the FBI either directly to +Mr. Fain or some other FBI agent or office? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you agreed to do that? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly did. + +Mr. DULLES. Have you had any other calls from the FBI officers since +that date? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. I think we will get to that. + +Mr. DULLES. Are they pertinent? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, they are and I think I have them listed. + +Was the subject of the possibility of your receiving any request by any +such people for any item of personal identification of your brother +discussed with Mr. Fain. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall that it was. + +Mr. JENNER. You have no present recollection of that? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. This is not--trying not to be repetitious but the author of +this memorandum is highly desirous of inquiring of you as to whether +the subject of personal identification of your brother was raised by +Mr. Fain in any connection or in any aspect. + +Mr. DULLES. I don't understand that question, what do you mean by +personal identification? + +Mr. JENNER. Some item of personal identification. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Marks identifying. + +Mr. DULLES. Wound or anything of that sort? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Physical marks really. + +Mr. JENNER. Two classifications, physical marks how he could be +identified; secondly any items of identification, such as registration +cards, things of that nature. But first personal identification in the +sense of physical properties. The person of your brother Lee. + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe Mr. Fain did at that time inquire as to any scars +that might appear, that I was aware of on Lee's body. The only scar +that I was familiar with was the one over one ear, I do not recall +which ear it was, where he had a mastoid operation performed at an +earlier date. + +Mr. JENNER. That is his right ear, was it not? + +Mr. OSWALD. I still don't know, sir. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +In that connection, however, did Mr. Fain raise with you the subject +that if anyone inquired of you as to any items of scars or other +possible identification that you would in turn advise the FBI that such +an inquiry had been made of you? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir, and I might say it was my further +understanding that I did agree if anybody inquired about Lee in such a +nature that other than perhaps newspaper reporters, who were properly +identified to me and I did know, I would inform him or his office of +this inquiry. + +Mr. JENNER. Your present recollection as to aspects of identification +was limited, that is the only one you discussed with Mr. Fain was the +fact that your brother had a mastoid operation on one of his ears. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And you knew of no other scar or similar identification on +his body? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall being again interviewed by Mr. Fain on +September 18, 1961? This would be a couple of months, two or three +months after your brother returned--no, he is still in Russia. + +Mr. DULLES. He is still in Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. Perhaps I may refresh your recollection an interview by Mr. +Fain with you respecting your then current knowledge of your brother +Lee's activities in Russia. + +Mr. OSWALD. May I inquire, sir, was this a telephone conversation? + +Mr. JENNER. All that is reported to me in this memorandum is that Mr. +Fain again interviewed you on September 18, 1961 with respect to your +knowledge of your brother Lee's activities in Russia. + +Mr. OSWALD. I do believe that he did, sir, and I believe this was over +the telephone. + +Mr. JENNER. By way of a telephone call? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You do not recall as of this time or approximately this +time any personal interview that is as distinct from interview by +telephone? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that during the course of that conversation +you advised FBI agent Fain that your brother had been critical of the +Russians. + +Mr. OSWALD. This was in September 1961, sir? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And that you were surprised that the Russians would permit +such criticism to be conveyed to you by letter? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall that specific statement but I do not deny +it. + +Mr. JENNER. It is possible that you made that statement? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the next date is May 18, 1962. Was to your knowledge +or by report from your wife, was your wife interviewed by the FBI on +that date or approximately that date? + +Mr. OSWALD. My remembrance on that, sir, is that she was on or around +that date, and also by telephone. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she report both occasions to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Would you please recite those, taking them in the order, what she said +to you and where and what the circumstances were? + +Mr. OSWALD. She was at our residence in Fort Worth, Tex., and she +acknowledged that Mr. Fain---- + +Mr. JENNER. Did she tell you that, sir? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes. I might add very courteously, inquired---- + +Mr. JENNER. That Mr. Fain was quite courteous in his inquiries of Vada? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes. He inquired over the phone as to whether or not we had +recently heard from Lee, and was there any indication about how his +efforts to return to the United States were progressing from that end. + +Mr. DULLES. How did it happen he called upon your wife, rather than +you; were you away at that time, away on business or what? + +Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe I was, sir. I do believe Mr. Fain was +courteous enough perhaps not to call me at my office, and it was of +such a nature that he felt like perhaps my wife could certainly answer +whether or not we had heard from him recently. + +Mr. DULLES. I see. + +Mr JENNER. Did she report to you as to whether any understanding had +been made by her, that she or you or both of you would advise the FBI +as soon as you had information as to when he might return to the United +States? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not recall that. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't recall her reporting that to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. You had already agreed with Mr. Fain back in September, +1961, to keep him advised of the comings and goings of your brother in +any event, did you not? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do not believe it was my intentions, nor do I +believe I conveyed it to Mr. Fain at that time, that I would, as soon +as I did have notice that when, or approximately when, he was going to +arrive, that I would notify them. This was certainly not my intention +then. It perhaps didn't even occur to me at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to Mrs. Oswald, Mrs. Vada Oswald, when +she stated she had agreed to keep the FBI advised, or to advise the FBI +when you and she or either of you was further notified as to the time, +if any, of your brother Lee's return to the United States? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, my wife did not advise me that she made any type +of statement to Mr. Fain of that effect. So, I certainly did not advise +her to what we would do or convey to the FBI when we did have knowledge +of it. + +Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection then there was no +discussion on that particular phase of your brother's presence in +Russia on the occasion you are now testifying about? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you adverted to two occasions when the FBI interviewed +your wife. Was the second one June 26, 1962, or thereabouts? + +In other words, approximately five weeks later? + +Mr. OSWALD. The date was June 26, 1962, sir? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe that would be correct, sir, or approximately +correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with Mrs. Vada Oswald on that +subject and did she make a report to you of any kind? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I believe this is the occasion that either Mr. +Fain or some other agent called the house in Fort Worth, Tex., and +requested my wife to pass on to Lee Harvey Oswald that they would like +to see him at their office in Fort Worth, Tex., for an interview. + +This is the only other time my wife ever conveyed to me that the FBI +had called the home and spoke to her, nothing else was said about it. + +Mr. DULLES. This was about a month after his return, wasn't it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 2 weeks. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion on this particular occasion +between you and your wife on the subject of her not advising the FBI of +your brother's arrival in the United States? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, there was not. + +Mr. JENNER. No discussion on that subject at all? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she report to you that she had stated to Mr. Fain that +your brother Lee and his wife Marina and their child had come to Fort +Worth and were living with you and with her? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not state that to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you give again the full conversation? + +Mr. OSWALD. On that date of June 26, 1962? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, between yourself and your wife Vada. + +Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, the full text of my +conversation with my wife was that Mr. Fain or some other member of +the FBI Bureau in Fort Worth, Tex., had called and spoke to her and +requested that she pass on to Lee Harvey Oswald that they would like to +speak to him at their office in Fort Worth, Tex. I would not say this +was part of the conversation, I would assume at that time, as I would +assume now, that perhaps he asked her was Lee and his family there. + +If you know my wife, she didn't lie to Mr. Fain or any other FBI agent, +and she said he was, and perhaps this prompted the request. I might say +this, sir. If they did not know that Lee Harvey Oswald had returned in +June, until June 26, 1962, somebody was asleep on the job. + +Mr. JENNER. I would perhaps be inclined to agree with that, sir. But +as far as your conversation with your wife Vada is concerned, she said +nothing that she had advised the FBI that--she had discussed with Mr. +Fain the fact that she had not advised the FBI of your brother Lee's +return. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall an interview with the FBI, or they with +you, on August 14, 1962 or thereabouts in Fort Worth? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and I recall that this was by telephone at the +general office of the Acme Brick Company and outside of my office as I +was leaving the office to go to lunch that day. + +The telephone call came through and I took it in another office and +spoke to Mr. Fain briefly. He inquired---- + +Mr. JENNER. He identified himself as Mr. Fain? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you become acquainted with his telephone voice at least +by that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, I had. + +Mr. JENNER. And that voice was the voice that you identified at that +time as that of Mr. Fain? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +What did he say and what did you say? + +Mr. OSWALD. He inquired as to where Lee was living at at that time and +to the best of my recollection my reply to him was that I did not know +the house number. I knew the street not by name but by locale and I +gave him this location. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell me what you said to him? + +Mr. OSWALD. That to the best of my recollection, that this duplex was +located across the street from the side of Montgomery Ward located on +West 7th Street in Fort Worth, Tex., approximately three or four blocks +from West 7th Street. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, you have greatly inconvenienced yourself +this evening and accommodated both myself and Mr. Oswald for which we +thank you. + +However, it is now 16 or 17 minutes of 8 o'clock in the evening, and +Mr. Oswald has been testifying here for, to the best way I can---- + +Mr. DULLES. It will be 12 hours pretty soon, 11 hours. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Approximately 11 hours and by the same token Mr. Jenner +has been questioning him for a like period of time, with the exception +of the few questions you have asked and the few questions I have asked, +and I submit maybe we should start again in the morning. + +And I likewise say that he is perfectly willing to go forward but I do +know that you have plans and if we can meet---- + +Mr. DULLES. We will have to do it tomorrow. + +Mr. McKENZIE. We can be here at 8:30, if it will suit the +Commission's---- + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. DULLES. 9:30 tomorrow morning. + +And we will adjourn at 11 o'clock, come hell or high water. + +(Whereupon, at 7:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Saturday, February 22, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED + +The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 22, 1964, at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present was Allen W. Dulles, member. + +Also present were Albert Jenner, assistant counsel; and William +McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald. + + +Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order. + +We will continue the hearing of Mr. Robert Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir. + +Have you now recited for us all of the occasions on which any agent of +the FBI called or visited with you prior to November 22, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. DULLES. And your answer would include any other Government +investigatory bodies, would it? I mean you didn't have the Secret +Service at this time? + +Mr. McKENZIE. In answer to your question, Mr. Jenner, and to Mr. +Dulles' further question, Robert has told me there was one other agency +that he does recall at this time. + +Mr. JENNER. Why don't we have him recite it, and then see if it is +pertinent. + +Or, may I suggest, Mr. Chairman, we might go off the record and see +what it was. + +Mr. McKENZIE. It was Immigration and Naturalization. + +Mr. JENNER. Fix the date, please. + +Excuse me. + +There was one other Government agency that interviewed you? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you give the time, please? + +Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, this was approximately +January or February of 1962, at my residence in Fort Worth, Tex., +approximately 7 o'clock or 7:30 p.m. The gentleman had called my home +from Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. Had he called you? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he had called my home, and my wife had talked to +him, and he asked if it was satisfactory if he came over to ask us +some questions and some background information in regard to Lee Harvey +Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this a week day or a Sunday? + +Mr. OSWALD. This was a week day, sir. + +My wife---- + +Mr. JENNER. How did you become informed of this? + +Mr. OSWALD. My wife called me at my office, sir. And she advised the +gentleman on the phone unless I said to the contrary it was certainly +satisfactory for him to come that night, which he did, at approximately +7 or 7:30 p.m. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were there? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was there, and my wife was present. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he give you his name, and do you recall what the name +was? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am sure he did give his name, but I do not +recall what his name was. + +It was a rather brief meeting and conversation that we had, and it was +with regards to the possibility or inquiry into the possibility of +having Lee's wife, Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, brought to this country, with +Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. As best as you can, would you reconstruct the conversation? + +Mr. OSWALD. This gentleman did take notes or perhaps he did have a form +outlining various questions that he needed answers to. I do not recall +any specific questions. However, I did state to him, after three or +four questions, in regards to Lee Harvey Oswald being in the Soviet +Union, and quite surprised, I do recall, myself that he was not aware +of the reasons why--or the reported reasons why Lee had gone to the +Soviet Union. + +And I suggested to the gentleman at that time that he perhaps contact +the FBI and I specifically mentioned Mr. Fain by name--he said he was +acquainted with Mr. Fain of the FBI Bureau, and that he would get the +background information from Mr. Fain in regards to Lee Harvey Oswald. + +I believe, sir, to the best of my remembrance that he stated at that +time he was not aware of the situation, and he thought this was just an +"ordinary" case of bringing an immigrant in from the Soviet Union to +the United States. + +Mr. JENNER. And when he said that, what person did you have in mind? + +Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the person to whom you thought he was referring, +was Marina? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. And this was after, as I recall, your correspondence showed +that they were planning to come back, was it not? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Could you give us a little more of your recollection as to +the thrust of his inquiries, the subject matter of his inquiries? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, the best of my recollection on that would +be directed to us at that time about Marina N. Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Of what nature--her age? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any specific questions, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Did they inquire about the marriage? That would be one of +the things they would inquire about. Because it would be the marriage +to an American that would give her the preference. I was wondering +if that might have been the subject of the inquiry--whether you had +evidence that she was married to your brother. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall that specific question, but +perhaps this ground was covered. It was just a general background on +Marina N. Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. But it did relate to Marina N. Oswald? You recall that much? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did. + +Mr. JENNER. And the questions were directed toward her and about her +specifically? + +Mr. OSWALD. More so than Lee Harvey Oswald. Some questions were +addressed to me by the gentleman in relation to my brother, Lee Harvey +Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. And the inquiries of the agent--he inquired of you as to +whether you were the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald, did he? + +Mr. OSWALD. I am sure he did, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to reconstruct the scene for you. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And whether your brother Lee Harvey Oswald was then in +Russia, and had been in Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Whether he was married, and married to Marina? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And was he familiar with Marina's name? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was. + +I might further add, sir, if I may, that the gentleman advised me he +assumed that Lee was employed by the Government in some capacity in +Russia, and not having any background or apparent background of Lee's +reported reasons for going to Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you make any response to that, when his +conversation was such as to indicate that he was not fully advised of +the circumstances under which your brother had entered and remained in +Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did--to the extent as I have already testified. + +I believe perhaps at this point, if not this exact point, I referred +him to the FBI Bureau and Mr. Fain. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ask you--did he inquire whether you had received +correspondence from your brother, or the extent to which you had been +in touch with each other? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. These are horribly leading questions--but I take it then +his inquiries were largely directed toward, as a representative of +the Immigration and Naturalization Service, obtaining information as +to Marina, whom he understood to be the wife of your brother, who, in +turn, was about to return to the United States with Marina, then a +citizen of Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. How long did this interview last? + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 30 minutes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And your mind's eye is that he had a form, or he had some +set questions which he was asking from a sheet of paper? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Rather than the typical FBI or Secret Service inquiry, in +which the questions range, as mine have, for example, largely dependent +upon what your answers to the previous questions were? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +I believe the gentleman did have some type of set form as to questions +he was referring to when he spoke to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he go into your family background, your own age, your +occupation, and that sort of thing? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir; he just went into my background, as to +the extent of my relation to Lee Harvey and Marina N. Oswald at that +particular time. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you describe this gentleman, please--his physical +appearance? + +Mr. McKENZIE. If you recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, of course. + +Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance, I would describe this man to +be average build, rather short, approximately 5-foot 9 or 5-foot 10, +perhaps in his middle forties or early fifties. I do recall, sir; if I +might further add, as the gentleman was leaving the house that night, +I requested of him if it was possible for him to notify me when and if +Marina's visa would be accepted or not, and he replied to me at that +time that he could not do that. And I replied back to him that I guess +I would know about it from the extent that if she arrived over here, it +was approved. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you now exhausted your recollection of this particular +incident? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there? + +Do you recall that at any time the State Department was in touch with +you over this general period--that is, the period of your brother's +stay in the Soviet Union, or his prospective return here? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; at no time was I aware of any member of the State +Department being in contact with me. + +And I might further add that at this particular time, after the +Immigration and Naturalization agent was there, including my prior +testimony as to the contacts with the FBI Bureau, these were the only +times prior to his arrival I was in contact with any Government agency. + +Mr. JENNER. Any agency of the Government of the United States? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, were you consciously in contact during any of that +period up to November 22, 1963, with any agent or agency of any other +government? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. + +And I might further add that no one else other than perhaps my close +friends inquired as to my contact with Lee Harvey Oswald during that +period. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +You have related to us an incident of your brother being interviewed by +the FBI, and he reporting back to you either that evening or that same +day of that interview. That is the one in which your brother reported +to you that inquiry had been made of him as to whether he was an agent +of any agency of the United States, and you responded--I have forgotten +now just how you phrased it. + +Mr. OSWALD. "Well, don't you know, sir?" + +Mr. JENNER. Now, in addition to that particular occasion, were there +any instances in which you were directly advised or advised by your +brother or by Mrs. Vada Oswald of any other interviews by any agent of +the United States Government with your brother, after his return from +Russia? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, to the best of my remembrance on that +question, that I was advised by Lee Harvey Oswald, after he and his +wife took up residence on Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, that the FBI +had contacted him and held an interview with Lee Harvey Oswald in their +car in front of their apartment on Mercedes Street. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say in their car, you mean the automobile of the +agents? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And was that approximately the middle of October--I mean +the middle of August? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it would have been approximately the middle of +August 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. Your brother reported that to you, did he? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the first information you had about it--that is, +did it come through your brother initially to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had indication from Mr. Fain, when he called me +at my office, inquiring as to where Lee was residing at that time, that +they did want to speak to him. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +And I take it, then, that Mr. Fain had called you at your office, as +you testified yesterday, shortly before this interview took place with +your brother. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of your brother about it, or did he +volunteer it? + +Mr. OSWALD. He volunteered the information, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I have forgotten now. + +Have I had you recite what your brother said to you about it? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; you have not. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please state that--and who was present when your +brother related this to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance of that occasion, sir, it was +in the presence of my brother, myself, and his wife, Marina N. Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. In their home, or your home? + +Mr. OSWALD. In their home, on Mercedes Street--either the afternoon or +the following day of the interview. And he just simply stated to me, +sir, that the FBI had been by and had held an interview with him in +their car in the front of their residence on Mercedes Street. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you anything about the thrust of the interview, +anything that had been said, what the inquiries were of him? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any. + +Mr. JENNER. Your recollection now serves you only to say that he did +report to you that FBI agents had interviewed him in their automobile, +in front of or near their apartment on Mercedes Street--2703 Mercedes +Street--is that correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall the number of the house, sir. I do recall +it was at the Mercedes Street address, and I have exhausted my +recollection of that particular occasion. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what you said or what others said--that is, +others in addition to your brother--on that particular occasion, when +he recited the event? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any further comment about that +particular event at that time. + +Mr. DULLES. There is one question I would like to ask at this point. + +This is slightly on a different subject. + +Mrs. Marina Oswald, as I recall--and I don't know whether you were +present, Mr. Jenner, when she gave this testimony or not. + +Mr. JENNER. I think not. + +Mr. DULLES. She stated that in the later period she had the impression +that your brother was trying to break off a little with, I might +call it, the Russian group in Fort Worth that he had had a good many +contacts with. That is when they called, he did not seem to welcome +their coming, and they slowly stopped coming. I think this was to the +house on Mercedes Street. + +Do you have any recollection of that? Did you know about that? Did +Marina speak to you about that? Or did your brother speak to you about +that? + +Mr. JENNER. Or did you have any impressions about it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do have impressions about that--at that +particular time when they were residing in Fort Worth. + +If I may, sir---- + +Mr. DULLES. It was Fort Worth when this took place? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Mercedes Street is in Fort Worth? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you sort of start at the beginning, and give us what +impressions you had, as to how this impressed you, as an incident? + +Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. + +During the period that they resided at the Mercedes Street address, I +was of the opinion--and I was present on one occasion at the Mercedes +Street address---- + +Mr. JENNER. Could you fix the time? + +Mr. OSWALD. This would be approximately the latter part of August 1962, +sir. + +Mr. JENNER. It would be subsequent to this interview by the FBI agents +with your brother in the automobile near their home? + +Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, I would say that would be +so, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. OSWALD. That Mr. Paul Gregory had retained Marina in the capacity +of teaching him the Russian language, and he in return was paying her a +certain amount per hour for this instruction. + +Mr. JENNER. And how did you come by that information? + +Mr. OSWALD. On the night that I was present at the home or apartment on +Mercedes Street, I was informed---- + +Mr. JENNER. By whom? + +Mr. OSWALD. By Lee Harvey Oswald--that Mr. Paul Gregory was due to +arrive at any moment, to take him and Marina driving around Fort Worth, +Tex. During this period Marina and Mr. Paul Gregory would converse in +the Russian language, and that she would be paid by the hour for her +time, and for the instruction. + +Mr. JENNER. Who was present on this occasion when your brother told you +that, in addition to yourself and your brother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. And your brother spoke in English, did he? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. To the best of your knowledge and present recollection, did +Marina understand what he was relating to you? Did he make it apparent +to her? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, to the best of my recollection that +generally she was apparent to what he was saying to me. I do feel like +she certainly recognized the name of Mr. Paul Gregory and was able more +or less to fill in the conversation to the extent that she understood +that Mr. Gregory was due to arrive, and that they were to converse in +the Russian language for his benefit. + +And it was my understanding at this time, either implied or stated to +me, by Lee Harvey Oswald, that this was not the first occasion that +this had occurred. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, if I may interrupt at this time--you have +brought here with you this morning a copy of the New York Times which +you have very kindly allowed me to look at and read. + +On page 22 of the New York Times, Saturday edition, February 22, 1964, +there is an article there---- + +Mr. DULLES. I may add I have not read the paper yet. + +Mr. McKENZIE. There is an article here by Mr. Anthony Lewis, +correspondent for the New York Times, dateline Washington, February 21, +which I would like to put into the record. + +Now, the reason I would like to put it into the record---- + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, would it suit your convenience if we finished +this incident, and then you put this matter into the record, or is it +pertinent to this particular point? + +Mr. McKENZIE. It is not pertinent to this line of inquiry, Mr. Jenner. +But with the Chairman's permission, I would like to insert it into the +record, or make a statement into the record at this time. + +Mr. DULLES. It is all right--go ahead. + +Mr. McKENZIE. It is apparent to me, from a reading of this article, +that someone other than Robert Oswald or myself has made a statement +to the press. We have consistently stated to the press that Mr. Oswald +was under oath before this Commission, and that being under oath before +this Commission he was in no position, or that it would not be an +appropriate time for any statement to be given to the press. + +And yet in this article, Mr. Lewis has given some direct quotes, or +what appear to be direct quotes, of Mr. Oswald's testimony before this +Commission. + +Mr. DULLES. I wonder if it would be agreeable to you, if we go off the +record at this point. + +Mr. McKENZIE. If I may still be on the record for one more second, +please, sir--I would like to further and say that some of the text of +this article gives testimony in the same light, and nearly in the same +manner in which Robert Oswald has testified. + +Now, if there is a leak to the press, or if anyone on the Commission or +its staff are giving articles to the press, then I want to know as soon +as possible, because if that is so we will go down and have a press +interview, and I just don't think it is fair to the witness, nor do I +think it is fair to the Commission. + +And if you feel that I am right in my statement here, then I would like +to have this article inserted in the record. + +Now, if you would like to go off the record, that is fine with me, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Just for a moment. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, off the record we have discussed the New York +Times article, and I have stated to you--the New York Times article +referred to as the one by Anthony Lewis, of February 22, 1964. + +Mr. DULLES. I think it is of February 21, but reported in the Times on +February 22. + +Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. + +I have stated to you that at no time to my knowledge has Robert Oswald +given any statements to the press as set forth in this article, +particularly his testimony to the Commission. + +And, further, that both Robert Oswald and his counsel have stated to +the press that while Mr. Oswald was under oath to the Commission, and +subject to recall by the Commission, that he would not issue any press +statements, because I have likened it to a grand jury investigation, +and I have stated this to the press. + +And I did not deem it appropriate at any time for him to make any +statements to the press of his testimony before this Commission. + +And yet there are--I find in this article by Mr. Lewis, dateline +February 21, certain excerpts from his testimony before the +Commission--and it can come from only one place, and that is from +someone on the Commission's staff. + +Mr. DULLES. Well, I may wish to make an exception to that--having +been in Washington a long time, and knowing that things have a way of +leaking, and many ways of leaking. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Well, sir, I will state to you--maybe my statement is too +strong. + +But I will state to you, sir, that at no time has Mr. Oswald or myself +made any statements giving testimony to the press which has previously +been given to the Commission. + +Mr. DULLES. I am very glad to hear that statement. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And, further---- + +Mr. JENNER. I have every confidence in that. As a matter of fact, I +have been with both of you most of the time. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And, further, if it has been given to the press by +someone other than the people in this room, and I feel confident it +was not given to the press by anyone--because I have either been with +you, Mr. Dulles, or Mr. Jenner. But I feel that the Commission should +investigate this to see if there is a leak, and, if so, I feel that it +is reprehensible. + +Mr. DULLES. I will present your statement to the Chief Justice. + +Do you wish to identify the statements to which you take exception? + +Mr. McKENZIE. I will identify it this way. + +Let me just identify it this way: "His brother told the Commission that +Lee seemed changed when he returned to the United States. He had lost +a lot of hair, which Robert said was unusual for their family, and he +appeared to be under a strain." + +"Robert testified that the last time he saw Lee before the +assassination was at Thanksgiving in 1962." + +Now, I offer that, sir, for the record from the standpoint that that is +testimony given to the Commission and quoted in this article. + +There are other items or matters in the article which Mr. Lewis could +have received from public records, or from newspaper morgues, or +newspaper records. However, the two quotes that I have given from this +article are direct testimony from the Commission, from the Commission's +records. + +Mr. JENNER. I think in fairness, Mr. McKenzie, they are with respect to +subject matter. I don't think they are direct quotes of the witness' +testimony. + +Mr. McKENZIE. But you will agree with me, won't you, Mr. Jenner, that +they are in respect to subject matter, matters testified to before the +Commission by Robert Oswald? + +Mr. JENNER. The subject matter of the hair, yes. I recall specifically +asking Mr. Oswald about that yesterday. We had not inquired of the +witness about that prior to that time. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I might further add, sir, that I am familiar with the +statements made to the press by you, Mr. Dulles. + +Mr. DULLES. I think you heard both of them that I made yesterday before +the morning, afternoon and evening sessions. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; I did. And I would be remiss if I did not add +that I know that you--when you have made statements to the press, you +have been most fair, both to the press, to the Commission, and also the +witness. + +And I am in full accord with the statements that have been made to the +press by yourself, by Mr. Rankin, and by the Chief Justice. + +I might also add, Mr. Dulles, if I may, sir, that the only reason +I bring this up is that I do feel that Mr. Robert Oswald is under +strict--the strictest of oaths to give his testimony only to the +Commission, in the interests of finding out the truth, and that he has +not given any statements to the press nor have I. + +Mr. DULLES. On that latter point, I would say that I appreciate and +respect the position that you have taken in this respect, that in the +case of previous witnesses, the Commission itself has no authority to, +as I understand it, and has not attempted to "muzzle" witnesses that +have appeared before it as to what they themselves may say after the +hearings. + +The Chief Justice has enjoined them during the hearings not to discuss +the proceedings. + +Am I correct, Mr. Jenner? + +Mr. JENNER. That is my understanding. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And that is exactly the position we are taking, sir. And +that is exactly the position that we have taken, and will continue to +take at all times while he is under oath to the Commission, and until +such time as he is released from that oath. + +Mr. DULLES. Well, I will see that your statement is brought +specifically to the attention of the Chief Justice and Mr. Rankin. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Shall we proceed, Mr. Jenner? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, thank you, sir. + +When the discussion of the Times article arose, you were in the +process, Mr. Oswald, of relating to us an incident of one evening in +the home of your brother, in which--with respect to which Paul Gregory, +the son of Peter Gregory, was expected to arrive at your brother's home +and then to drive about the city of Fort Worth with Marina, she talking +to him in Russian and he likewise in Russian, as part of a course of +instruction in conversational Russian between Marina and Paul Gregory, +who was seeking to improve his command of the Russian language. And you +had reached the point at which you related a conversation with you in +the presence of Marina, which you thought she understood and she took +sufficient part, in to lead you to believe she did understand it. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection as to where we were? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does. + +Mr. DULLES. And I would like to add, as I understand it, it was +indicated to you by your brother that this was to be on a financial +basis--that is, she was in effect giving Russian lessons to Paul +Gregory, and would be paid for it. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Was any amount of money mentioned? It was by the hour, I +think you said. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; a figure was mentioned. However, I do not recall +the exact figure. I could perhaps to the best of my ability and +remembrance of the occasion place the figure at over $3 an hour. + +I do not recall any further conversation that I had with Marina and Lee +Oswald on that occasion. + +I did leave their residence before the reported time that Mr. Gregory +was due to arrive. + +Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur that evening, in the course of that +interchange and conversation, that had a bearing upon, or led you to +believe or have the impression, that your brother Lee was seeking to +break off or lessen relations on his part and Marina's part with their +Russian friends? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there? + +Did your brother indicate whether these lessons were being given in his +and Marina's home, or whether they were to be given at the Gregory home? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. It was implied if not stated to me at that time +that the lesson was to be given going around Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. This particular occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you get any impression, Mr. Oswald, as to the course +of procedure in that respect for any future occasions, or those that +had occurred in the past, because I believe you indicated that your +impression was that this was not arising for the first time that +evening. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall anything being stated at that +time or any other time where these lessons were to be given other than +my impression of that one night that it was to be given as they drove +around Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. Am I correct in my impression of your testimony that your +impression in turn was that this relationship had existed at least +somewhat before this occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Then would you proceed to the next circumstance or event +which led you eventually to the conclusion or impression that your +brother was seeking to lessen the relations between themselves, he and +Marina, and their Russian friends? + +Mr. OSWALD. To the contrary, sir, that was the only time that I recall +that any people of Russian descent or interested in the Russian +language was mentioned in my presence, and I base my opinion on that +particular incident that they were not at the time seeking to lessen +their relationship within this group of people when they did reside at +the Mercedes Street address in Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +I had been under the impression, Mr. Oswald, from your first immediate +response to Mr. Dulles' question on this subject, that you had stated +or at least indicated--I had that impression--that you had noted +somewhere along a point of time while they were on Mercedes Street, +some effort on the part of your brother to lessen the intensity at +least of the degree of intercourse between themselves, that is he and +Marina, and their friends of Russian derivation. Am I correct in that? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe you are incorrect in that, sir. I believe I +stated to Mr. Dulles that to the contrary at that particular time +they were not attempting to lessen their relations with this group of +persons. And I cited the incident of that night as they awaited on +the arrival of Mr. Paul Gregory as an example that they were still in +contact at least with that member of Mr. Gregory's family, if not Mr. +Gregory. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. DULLES. It may well have been that the testimony that we previously +had related to a subsequent period. + +Mr. JENNER. That may well be. + +I was not here when Marina testified. + +It does lead me, Mr. Chairman, however, to make some further inquiries +on this subject. + +Mr. DULLES. All right. + +Mr. JENNER. How old, in your judgment, if you have an impression, was +Mr. Paul Gregory? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would place his age at that time approximately +20 or 21 years of age. + +Mr. JENNER. And I believe you testified last evening that you had met +Paul Gregory. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you gain any impression that evening that prior +contacts between Paul Gregory and your brother and sister-in-law in +this area had embraced other occasions when they, meaning Marina and +Paul Gregory, had driven about the city of Fort Worth? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was of that opinion--whether it was stated or +implied, at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Could you state for us a little more in detail any remark +that led to that conclusion? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any specific remark that was made +at that time. But I was, as I am now, of the opinion that there were +or had been prior interviews or lessons between Marina Oswald and Lee +Harvey Oswald and Mr. Paul Gregory. + +Mr. JENNER. That is prior occasions when this method of conducting a +lesson had been pursued--that is, just driving about the city of Fort +Worth? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, did there occur subsequently any further occasions +in which the conducting of lessons by Marina with or for Paul Gregory +arose? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Up to the time that they had left Fort Worth, which, as I +recall, was the day after Thanksgiving, 1962, did there come to your +attention, either through your brother or Marina or some other source, +the undertaking by Marina to give or participate in lessons to persons +other than Paul Gregory, the teaching or increasing the facility of use +of the Russian language on the part of someone else? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. And if I may, sir, to understand the question +fully--you referred to the day after Thanksgiving, 1962, as the day +that they had left Fort Worth, Tex. They had given up their residence +on Mercedes Street in the early part of October 1962, and moved to +Dallas, Tex., address unknown to me. On the occasion referred to on +Thanksgiving 1962, it was my understanding that they returned to Dallas +when they departed from my home in Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. You are absolutely correct. + +I did misstate your testimony. But up until the time they did leave, +were there any further occasions on which you received the impression, +at least, that Marina had been engaged, either for compensation or +voluntarily in teaching conversational Russian or increasing the +facility or use of the Russian language by someone else? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not acquainted with any other persons that +perhaps she had pursued this line of employment with, or volunteered to +instruct anybody else in the use of the Russian language. + +Mr. JENNER. Does that exhaust this subject, Mr. Chairman? + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. You may proceed. + +Mr. JENNER. At any time before Marina and Lee left Fort Worth to go to +Dallas, did you become aware of her, at least from time to time, living +with others in the city of Fort Worth--that is, not living with your +brother in their home? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not aware of that. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald; I anticipate that a series of names which I am +about to put to you would in large part be strange to you, but one of +the other divisions of the investigation staff desires me to inquire +whether any of these names are familiar to you. + +Prior to November 22, 1963, did you or your brother, Lee, or any member +of the Oswald family--that would include your brother John and your +mother--as far as you know hear of any of the following persons: + +Mr. Chairman, may I withdraw that question and put it to the witness +first. + +Did you, at any time prior to November 22, 1963, know of or hear of any +of the following persons: + +One, George Senator? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. And that name is unfamiliar to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Ralph Paul? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. DULLES. We will assume that each of those questions the name is +also unfamiliar to you. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +If you would like, may I suggest that you read the entire list and if +any of them are familiar to me I would stop you on that occasion. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. + +Andrew Armstrong; Karen Bennett, also sometimes known as Carlin; Bruce +Carlin; Roy William Pike, alias Mickey Ryan; Robert Kermit Patterson, +alias Bobby Patterson; Donald C. Stuart; Charles Arndt; Stanley or +Katch Skotnicki; Larry Crafard; Eva Grant; Joe Bonds; Joyce Lee +McDonald, also known as Joy Dale. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not heard of any of those people mentioned +by name, nor am I familiar with any of their names. + +Mr. JENNER. And as far as you know, none of the members of your +family, including your brother Lee, and Marina, knew of, or were +acquainted with any of these people? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And this likewise would include your wife Vada and your +mother and your brother John? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether or not your brother Lee ever visited +any of the following night clubs, bars, or taverns or restaurants in +the Dallas-Fort Worth area: + +The Bullpen Drive-In; the Carousel Club. + +Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, Mr. Jenner. This is prior to November 23, +1963--is that correct? + +Mr. JENNER. It is, sir. + +Mr. OSWALD. Thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. I will repeat the list. + +The Bullpen Drive-in; the Carousel Club; the Vegas Club; the Sovereign +Club. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not aware at any time that he did enter these +establishments. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you been in any of these establishments? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. JENNER. This leads me to ask you about your brother's drinking +habits, if any. Did he take an occasional drink--I mean of intoxicating +liquor? + +Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance, sir, on that particular +point, I have never known him to take a drink of an alcoholic beverage. + +Mr. JENNER. And have you been with him on occasion when you have had +alcoholic beverage, whereas at the same time he declined to have any, +or did not have any? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any occasion such as that. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions on which you would have drawn to your +attention the fact that your brother was not a drinking man--even a +social drinker? + +That is, were you present when others might have been having a social +drink at which your brother either declined or just didn't have one? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any such incident. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do have a firm recollection or opinion, in any +event, that your brother was not a drinking man, even a social drinker? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And am I correct that you did testify a moment ago that +there was never an occasion when you saw your brother imbibe an +intoxicating liquor? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. What about Marina in that respect? + +Mr. OSWALD. There, again, sir, we are referring to the time prior to +November 23, 1963, is that correct? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, let's take that first. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. + +Nor was I present on any occasion that she did take a drink of any type +of alcoholic beverage. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I will take the period from the 22d of November to the +present time. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have been in her presence on a number of +occasions where she has taken a drink of an alcoholic beverage. + +Mr. JENNER. And has it been just an occasional drink, purely social +drinking? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And---- + +Mr. OSWALD. If I may qualify one point of that statement, as to being +a social drink--during the period that we was at the Inn of the Six +Flags in Arlington, Tex., the baby, Rachel Oswald, being breast fed, +and due to the nature that she was quite upset at that particular +time, that she was not eating proper, and that they were having some +difficulty--she was having difficulty maintaining the natural milk +supply in her own body for the baby, that one six-pack of beer was +brought in, and at no time did I see her drink other than one beer at a +time or one beer per day to help fortify herself in this production of +milk. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear any conversation in which your brother +participated or Marina participated with you or in your presence +respecting the subject of his or her or their attendance at any night +club, bar, tavern, or restaurant in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and +when I use the word restaurant, I am thinking of a restaurant in which +intoxicating liquors or entertainment might be employed. + +Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry I keep referring to this point again, sir, but +this was prior to November 23, 1963? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not aware of that. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. That is, your brother and Marina were not in +the habit of--you know of no occasion on which they attended bars or +restaurants with entertainment which might be described as night clubs +and that sort of thing? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And I take it that is not your habit, either? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. To your knowledge, did he have any friends in this circle, +the nightclub circle? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not that I was aware of, sir, prior to November 23, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any friends or classmates or associates, +either of yourself or your brother Lee, who have become nightclub +entertainers? And may I say that includes so-called stripteasers or +musicians or singers, or masters of ceremony. + +Mr. OSWALD. If I may refresh my memory to the question, sir, you did +include myself in that statement, did you not? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. OSWALD. The only gentleman that I was ever in a remote way +acquainted with who has become perhaps what might be determined an +entertainer as you have outlined was a boy that attended high school +with me in Fort Worth, Tex., and he is now known as, as then--I believe +his correct name is Mr. Van Williams. If I might pinpoint the series of +programs on television that he appeared in was Surfside Six, and other +western and detective type series programs on television. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether your brother was acquainted with him? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion, sir, that he was not acquainted +with Mr. Williams. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, do you know of any friends, classmates or associates +of either yourself or your brother Lee who have become waitresses, +bartenders, or, to use the vernacular, bouncers? + +You know what a bouncer is? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +To answer your question, sir, I do not know of any that are personally +acquainted to myself or that I would be of the opinion that were +acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. And the same question as to members or employees of any gun +clubs or shooting ranges, rifle ranges. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes; 1 am acquainted with at least two people who have +joined or belonged to a gun club or something of that nature. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify them, and also state whether or +not your brother Lee was acquainted with these people. + +Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Bill Harlan, formerly of the Acme Brick Co., in Fort +Worth, Tex., and Mr.--I am quite sure that Mr. Harlan is not acquainted +with my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald. + +The other gentleman is Mr. Jewel Godi, of the Acme Brick Co., in +Denton, Tex., who is not acquainted with my brother Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it these two gentlemen you have identified are +fellow employees of Acme Brick Co.? + +Mr. OSWALD. Or ex-employees that have become my personal friends, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. As far as you know--I will withdraw that, because it would +be repetitious. + +What kind of gun clubs--hunting clubs, or gun practice clubs? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. Harlan belonged to an archery club in Fort Worth, Tex., that I +believe was also part of a gun club. + +And Mr. Godi belongs to a Denton gun club of the nature of a practice +range. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any possible homosexual tendency or activity +of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any information as to whether he at any time +met with suspected homosexuals or whether he went to the places +reputedly frequented by homosexuals? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your brother's attitude toward sex in general? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not have an opinion on that, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any opinion whether it was a normal, healthy +attitude? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say it would be a normal, healthy attitude, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have, any--do you know what his attitude was, if +he had one and you are acquainted with, toward homosexuality and +homosexuals? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not of any opinion on that particular +question. + +Mr. JENNER. And this series of questions which I have been asked to +put to you, I intended to include his entire lifetime. And were you +answering the questions with that in mind? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would not change my own answers on that basis. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether or not any of the persons whose names I +read to you, that series of names, beginning with George Senator, and +concluding with Joyce Lee McDonald, contacted any member of your family +or friends subsequent to November 22, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge. + +Mr. JENNER. Or any employer or fellow employee of yours? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. Not to my knowledge. + +Mr. JENNER. And I take it from your previous answer, which was that +these names were unfamiliar to you, that they certainly did not contact +you--at least you did not know consciously that they contacted you. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. This is not, I anticipate, fully repetitious, Mr. Chairman, +but an inquiry has been made--I just want to make certain of it. + +Were you at all aware as to whether in October of 1962--aware of the +fact, that for a short time Marina resided with Elena Hall? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. + +Mr. JENNER. And were you aware that there was for a short period of +time some argument or fight between your brother and Marina which may +have played a part in her visiting in the home of Elena Hall for a +short time in October 1962? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it, sir, this is all completely new to you. You have +no information on this subject. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. You were not aware of anything of this nature at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie described at length yesterday Mr. George +De Mohrenschildt. As I recall it, your testimony was that you were +unacquainted with this gentleman. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear either your brother--were you present +when either your brother or Marina discussed, or may have discussed Mr. +De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not been. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of any threat that your brother uttered +against or may have uttered against Mr. De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not aware of any threat. + +Mr. JENNER. You are now aware of the photograph of your brother with +the pistol on his hip and holding the rifle and also holding a sheaf of +papers, are you not? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you see that photograph by any chance at any time +prior to November 22, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. Or did not. + +Mr. JENNER. You were unaware that it had been taken? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you know that your brother had either the gun or the +pistol? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Or had acquired the gun or pistol? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina, following November 22, 1963, herself also +acquire the same antipathy that you have testified you had with respect +to the Paines? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion, sir, that she has not or does +not have the antipathy that I have to the Paines. However, I feel +confident that she has followed my advice along that line, and not +contacted Mr. or Mrs. Paine since November 23, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you have the impression that Mrs. Paine had some +ulterior motive, other than a good motive, desire to befriend Marina +when she was in some distress, and to gain the chance to talk Russian +with her? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I would not have an opinion of that, since I was +not aware of the circumstances of how they did become acquainted, and +consequently started living in her residence in Irving, Tex. + +Mr. DULLES. I gathered from your previous testimony that your feeling, +visceral feeling, related both to Mrs. Paine and to Mr. Paine. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did. More so, if I might add, sir, to Mr. +Paine than Mrs. Paine. But still I will include both of them in that +answer. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you know anything of Mr. Paine's background and +affiliations? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. DULLES. You knew of Mrs. Paine's interest in learning Russian, did +you not, and in Russian matters? + +Mr. OSWALD. Following November 22, 1963, this has been reported to me. + +Mr. DULLES. By Marina? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe I read this in various reported news +articles and magazines that she has stated this was her intention. + +Mr. DULLES. And Marina did not talk to you about either of the Paines +particularly? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to any extent. + +Mr. JENNER. Your information with respect to the Paines, other than +your meeting them, I believe you said, the evening of November 22, and +later in the Inn of the Six Flags, is based primarily--in addition to +that--on items you have read in the newspaper and that sort of thing? + +Mr. OSWALD. Sir, to fully understand the question, you referred to a +meeting of Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Inn of the Six Flags? + +Mr. JENNER. I thought you said that Mrs. Paine--or was it Mrs. Ford in +the Inn of the Six Flags? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; neither of the ladies you have mentioned were in +the Inn of the Six Flags. + +Mr. JENNER. Then your whole acquaintance with the Paines was your being +introduced to them, is that correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you relate your acquaintance with the Paines, and +when it first arose? + +Mr. OSWALD. The first occasion that I met Mr. and Mrs. Paine, was at +the Dallas police station on the night of November 22, 1963. + +Mr. DULLES. May I ask there--had you heard about them before? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. + +Mr. DULLES. Hadn't even heard about them? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. And my subsequent second meeting with +Mr. and Mrs. Paine--and I might add my last meeting with Mr. and Mrs. +Paine--was at their home in Irving, Tex., on the day that Mr. John +Thorne, Mr. Jim Martin and myself--for the purpose of picking up Marina +N. Oswald's and Lee Harvey Oswald's personal belongings. This was the +only time that I have met them since the night of November 22, 1963. + +Mr. DULLES. Did anything transpire on that occasion, when you were +taking up Marina's and your brother's belongings? + +Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps, sir, the only thing that I recall that would +perhaps be of some type of significance was that Mr. Paine, at the +approximate time we were ready to depart from his home, called me over +to the side and stated that he would like to know where Marina was +staying, and they would like to be in contact with her. And my comment +to him was that Marina was leaving the area, and that she was to be +well taken care of. And at that time we left. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether the Paines have been in touch with +Marina since that particular time, when you left the Paine's home? + +Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, sir, they have not in person been in +contact with Marina Oswald. However, it is my understanding from Mr. +Jim Martin and Mrs. Marina Oswald that Mrs. Paine has written a number +of letters to Mrs. Marina Oswald during her stay at the Martin's home +in Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you know the content of those letters? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether Marina still has them in her possession? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion that she does, sir. And the only +comment she had made to me directly, or Mr. Martin perhaps made to me, +as to the contents of the letters was that they wanted to talk with +Marina, they wanted to be in contact with Marina in person. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, during all of the time that your brother and +your sister-in-law Marina resided in Fort Worth, Tex., were you aware +of any occasion when your sister resided or visited with, and lived +with, anyone else other than your brother Lee in their home? + +Mr. OSWALD. Sir, if I may correct you--you referred to her as my sister. + +Mr. JENNER. I meant sister-in-law. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not acquainted at any time that she did. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any knowledge or acquaintance with whether +Marina did any shopping on her own? + +Mr. OSWALD. During the period that they were in Fort Worth, Tex., sir? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I am acquainted. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you relate your knowledge in that respect? + +Mr. OSWALD. A conversation with my wife on return home from work one +afternoon, approximately the latter part of June 1962--correction, sir. + +It was not a conversation with my wife--it was a conversation with +my mother, at approximately the latter part of August 1962, or the +first part of October 1962. And, to the best of my recollection, the +conversation was to the effect that Lee Harvey Oswald had gone downtown +in Fort Worth, Tex., looking for a job, and that Marina wanted to find +Lee while he was downtown, and even though reportedly from my mother +that she insisted that she not leave the house, she did, carrying the +baby, June Lee Oswald with her, and walked approximately 15 or 16 +blocks into downtown Fort Worth. + +It is my understanding that she became lost or needed assistance in her +directions, in her attempt either to find Lee Harvey Oswald or return +home, that she asked the assistance of a police officer, and that +apparently she did not have any other difficulty. + +It is my understanding at that time that she did purchase either some +baby clothes or perhaps some clothes for herself. + +Mr. JENNER. And this was all related to you by your mother? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And does that exhaust your fund of knowledge as to any +shopping trips or visiting and shopping at a local shopping center or +stores by Marina? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--prior to November 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. November 22, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. The diary, or memorandum, has considerable information, you +may recall, with purchases that were made by others for Marina and the +child, as I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. That was afterward. + +Mr. DULLES. That was afterward? + +Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, I do recall another instance. + +In the presence of myself, Lee Harvey Oswald and Mrs. Marina Oswald and +the baby June Lee Oswald, approximately the middle of June 1963--the +occasion was a grocery shopping for my family and for---- + +Mr. JENNER. June of 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. June of 1962. And this was to my +knowledge---- + +Mr. JENNER. Your statement 1963 was a slip of the tongue? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +And there was, to my knowledge, at that time the first occasion that +Mrs. Marina Oswald had ever been in a supermarket of the nature that is +found in the United States. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about the occasion. + +Mr. OSWALD. I remember the occasion quite vividly. If you ever have the +opportunity, sir, to take a person of that nature into a supermarket or +an average size store, and watch the expression on their face, as to +the magnitude of the food and the variety of the food that was in her +presence--and I believe for the first time to any extent--it was quite +a pleasant observation, I might add, sir. She was quite overwhelmed. + +Mr. JENNER. Surprised and overwhelmed? + +Mr. OSWALD. Surprised---- + +Mr. DULLES. There is nothing like it in Minsk. + +Mr. OSWALD. I feel certain, sir, there is not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression that her reaction was such to +indicate that at least she had never seen anything of this nature? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was of the exact opinion she had not seen +anything anywhere comparable to that in the nature of a food store. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, did you get the impression this was a spontaneous +reaction on her part? + +Mr. OSWALD. Most certainly it was, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. She was not putting on an act to impress you and Lee and +anyone accompanying you? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. This is of interest, Mr. Chairman, particularly the +spontaneity. + +Mr. DULLES. Was that in Dallas or Fort Worth? + +Mr. OSWALD. This was in Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. This is while they were living with you, Mr. Oswald? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. How did this arise? Did you just decide--was this part of +showing her Fort Worth, or was it developed from desiring to go to the +supermarket to purchase something, or was it a combination of both? + +Mr OSWALD. Sir, I believe it was a combination of both. + +If I might add, the store that I went into was not the store that I +usually purchased groceries from. + +Mr. JENNER. You were leading--you were doing the leading of this party? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And, in addition to yourself and Marina, who was present? + +Mr. OSWALD. Only the baby, June Lee Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Just the two of you going, and you were showing her around +the town? + +Mr. OSWALD. And Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. DULLES. And you made some purchases? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we did. And she made some purchases. Or she +selected some items. + +Mr. DULLES. Can you tell us whether Marina had from time to time a +certain amount of money for her own disposition? Did your brother Lee +leave her money? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge that he did, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would it be your impression that he did not? + +Mr. OSWALD. It would be my impression that he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. I would appreciate it if you would proceed to tell about +your taking her around on this particular day, and her reactions, +perhaps, to other things that you showed her in Fort Worth at this +early stage of her being in this country. + +Mr. OSWALD. Her reactions in the supermarket, sir, as I have testified, +I believe to be completely spontaneous, and certainly from all +appearances it was entirely new to her. I do recall we started off in +the section of the store--do you want me to name the store, sir? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; you might do that. + +Mr. OSWALD. It was a Safeway Grocery Store, located on Camp Bowie and +Ridglea addition of Fort Worth, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it Camp Bowie is the name of a street? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And you obtained any additional impressions as you made +this tour of Fort Worth, that is, as to her reactions to her new +surroundings? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. She reacted to a walk that we took after leaving +the grocery store and drove across the street to a suburban shopping +center, with a large variety of different type stores. I do not recall +going into any particular store. We were, as the term is applied, +window shopping. And she was quite impressed at the articles of +clothing, of jewelry, of shoes, and such items as might be displayed +in this type of suburban shopping center which would more or less +encompass a full variety of practically everything other than large +appliances at this time. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +At any time prior to November 22, 1963, did you become acquainted +with her habits, if any, with respect to independent shopping on her +part--that is, shopping by herself for foodstuffs or articles of +clothing for little June or for herself? + +Mr. OSWALD. None other than, sir, that I have already related as +related by my mother to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the name Hutch's Market familiar to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. It is not. + +Mr. JENNER. You testified yesterday that, as I recall--and if I am +incorrect, please correct me--that your impression at least was that +your mother was opposed to your marriage? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Am I correct up to that point? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Without the degree of that opposition. Was it quite +affirmative? Did she make any scene? Did she talk--express to you +unequivocally her opposition? + +Give us those circumstances, please. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any specific instance where she +firmly stated that she was against my marriage. It might have been +little things along that line she might have said to me that I do not +recall formulated my opinion that she was to some degree at least +having objections to my marriage. + +Mr. JENNER. But did you have the feeling, and was it conveyed to you, +that she was quite affirmatively opposed to your marriage? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say generally; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Did Marina and your mother stay at the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas? + +Mr. OSWALD. In what period? + +Mr. JENNER. Before they moved to the Executive House? + +Mr. DULLES. Right after November 22--maybe the night of November 22. I +think they had a room and moved out. + +Mr. JENNER. I thought the witness referred to the Adolphus Hotel +yesterday. + +Mr. McKENZIE. He has not referred to the Adolphus Hotel. + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe that is right. + +My first occasion to meet with my mother and Marina Oswald on November +23, 1963---- + +Mr. JENNER. That is a Saturday. + +Mr. OSWALD. Was at the Adolphus Hotel, rather than the Baker Hotel, as +noted in my notes on page 10, in my diary. + +Mr. JENNER. I had noted that, Mr. Oswald. And would you identify the +page to which you have reference now? + +Mr. OSWALD. Page 10, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Page 10 of your memorandum? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. And I might point out at the time I wrote +it down in parens--"I believe." In other words, my statement was "I +received a call from mother while at the DA's office, and she advised +she was at the Baker Hotel--I believe." + +Mr. JENNER. And your recollection has now been refreshed that that was +the Adolphus Hotel rather than the Baker Hotel? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am of the opinion now it was the Adolphus Hotel +rather than the Baker Hotel. + +Mr. JENNER. And then the next day they were moved to or themselves +moved to Executive House. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. They were moved later on, on +Saturday, November 23, 1963, to the Executive Inn. + +Mr. JENNER. Executive Inn that is called? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Rather than Executive House? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. They went from the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas to the +Executive Inn? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. That is my understanding, that they did. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. DULLES. Were those quarters, as far as you recall, retained for +them by the Life people, Life, Time, Fortune people? + +Mr. OSWALD. In my conversation with my mother on Saturday, November +23, while I was at the district attorney's office in Dallas, Tex., +she related to me at that time that they had furnished her and Marina +Oswald and the babies three rooms at the Adolphus Hotel, and that Life +magazine was paying for these rooms, and that they could keep these +rooms as they wanted--as long as they wanted to be close to Lee and the +situation that was erupting in Dallas, Tex., at this time. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Did you, during this period of time, have occasion to visit them at the +Adolphus Hotel? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that recorded in your memorandum. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Then I don't wish to burden the record by asking you about +it again. + +Did you have occasion to visit them at the Executive Inn? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that recorded in your memorandum? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Identify the page, please. + +Mr. OSWALD. That begins on page 14, at the bottom of the page, under +the date of Sunday, November 24, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. And on that same day, did they move to the Inn of the Six +Flags? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right--later on in the afternoon, Sunday, November +24. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you accompany them on that occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. I was in a separate car, but they were in +the same party. + +Mr. JENNER. All three phases, Mr. Oswald--Adolphus Hotel, Executive +Inn, and the journey to and living at the Inn of the Six Flags, they +are recorded in your memorandum? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are. + +Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time when differences arose between Marina +and your mother? + +Mr. McKENZIE. You have covered that. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you sure? + +Mr. McKENZIE. I will submit it to the Chair. + +Mr. DULLES. I would think so. I think that has been covered. + +Mr. OSWALD. Did you want me to answer that, sir? + +Mr. JENNER. We don't want it if it is repetitious. + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe that has already been testified to, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. During the course of the days immediately following +November 22, 1963, whether at the Adolphus or the Executive Inn or the +Inn of the Six Flags, did any time arise, any talk with you or in your +presence, of a supposed possible conspiracy between the Secret Service +men on the one hand and Marina on the other? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Nothing of that character arose, as far as you can recall? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And I may say to you, Mr. Oswald, that the purpose of +asking you that question is a statement made by your mother that there +was a conspiracy between Marina and the Secret Service to turn Marina +against your mother and against your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, or the +memory of your brother. + +Mr. OSWALD. I would say to the best of my remembrance of all happenings +at the Inn of the Six Flags that at no time, to my knowledge, was there +any type of conspiracy of that nature, and at no time was I aware of +any type of conspiracy that would even resemble that statement, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. DULLES. As I recall, however, you have testified that you discussed +with the Secret Service the type of interrogation that the FBI were +carrying on, and that has been fully presented in the record. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Following November 22, 1963, you saw a good deal of Marina, +did you not in those few days? You were guiding her and advising her? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you already testified that on at least one occasion, +or maybe two, that you had taken her to your brother's grave in the +cemetery. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; on quite a few other occasions also. + +Mr. JENNER. In addition? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. And in your memorandum or diary--I don't know how we +described that, but I think variously as memorandum or diary. + +Mr. JENNER. I would say memorandum, except the last pages a diary. + +Mr. DULLES. In your memorandum you have recounted certain problems in +connection with the funeral arrangements. Is there anything else you +would like to add to that? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I would not. + +Mr. JENNER. On the basis of your participating in the course of events +subsequent to November 22, and your continuing presence at the Inn, +and advising your sister-in-law, Marina, do you have an opinion as +to whether the Secret Service or anyone else was overly influencing +Marina? Or even that they were attempting to influence her? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe that--perhaps I did not get the full +statement there. I believe you included anyone, including the Secret +Service agents. + +Mr. JENNER. Could we confine it to the Secret Service first? + +Mr. OSWALD. All right. + +In answer to that part of the question, I would say I felt like they +were not attempting to influence Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. Would it be your impression that they were trying to be +completely fair, even leaning over backwards? Or do you have any +impression in that respect? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do have an impression and opinion on that. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you state it? + +Mr. OSWALD. That I felt at no time during our stay at the Inn of the +Six Flags during the week of November 25, 1963, including Sunday, +November 24, 1963, that the United States Secret Service agents that +were present at one time or another did anything other than to be +extremely helpful to Marina, and not to the point of attempting to +affect her judgment or to, so to speak, put words into her mouth, or +in any way lead her with relation to the events that had occurred on +November 22, 1963, or prior events that she had recorded on her tape +recording interview in the Inn of the Six Flags, or the events that +happened Sunday, November 23, 1963, until the time she left the Inn of +the Six Flags. + +In other words, they conducted themselves in a highly admirable way at +all times. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you give us your same opinion with respect to +the FBI? + +Mr. OSWALD. As I testified yesterday, sir; I was of the opinion on the +first and the second interview--and I refer to the first interview +as I did yesterday as an attempted interview, and I referred to the +second interview, to the best of my recollection it was the second +interview, at which time the FBI, in my opinion, kept Marina Oswald in +an interview to the extent that it had almost entirely exhausted her. + +Mr. JENNER. Is this the occasion you related to us yesterday, or is +this another one? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; this is the second occasion, when there was an +interview. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us about that, and when it occurred? + +Mr. OSWALD. This interview occurred approximately Wednesday night, +November 27, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. Where? + +Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags, at which time the FBI agents +and Mr. Tom Kelley, of the United States Secret Service, left the +room that we had been staying in with Marina Oswald and went to the +adjoining set of rooms that was located, of course, right next to +the room we had been staying, and commenced an interview. It is my +understanding that Mr. Kelley was not present at this interview. + +However, he was in the adjoining room to that set of rooms, and that he +was not permitted to be within the immediate interviewing area. + +I do not recall the exact length of this interview. But as the night +progressed, it became at least apparent to me that due to the state +of Marina Oswald at that time, considering all the things that had +occurred, and the difficulty that she was having producing enough milk +for the baby Rachel, that they were extremely disregarding her own +personal welfare at this time. + +And I did go to the adjoining rooms, and I believe Mr. Kelley opened +the door. And at that time I related to him that the babies had +awakened, and that they needed their mother, Marina Oswald. + +He immediately informed the interviewers in the next room. And as my +memory serves me, Mr. Kelley turned to me and stated he was glad I did +that, and I stated to him that the babies were still asleep, and I did +it on the very purpose of stopping the interview, too, to the length +and the nature of Marina's welfare, and to the extent that that was +quite late at night. + +Mr. DULLES. Were you present during the whole interview? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. I was in the adjoining rooms, keeping +an eye just in case the babies did wake and so forth. + +Mr. DULLES. Was there an interpreter present at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Was that FBI or Secret Service interpreter? + +Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my memory, sir, that was Mr. Lee Gopadze of +the United States Secret Service. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Gopadze was participating in the interview? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. DULLES. But only as interpreter. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether Marina was or is +involved in any plot or conspiracy in connection with this affair? + +Mr. OSWALD. May I have the first part of that question again? + +(The reporter read the question.) + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion to the contrary? + +That is, that she is not? + +Mr. OSWALD. I am of the opinion, sir, that she is not involved in any +conspiracy or was involved in any way with the event that took place on +November 22, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there? + +Do you have any opinion as to whether any American security service, +Secret Service, FBI, CIA, were in any way involved in any conspiracy or +plot or otherwise involved in this whole affair? + +Mr. OSWALD. Sir, you are asking me of my opinion? + +Mr. DULLES. Only your opinion, yes--obviously if you have information +or any evidence we would like to have it. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not have any evidence or information along +that line. I do have an opinion, sir, qualified to this extent. That it +is very difficult for me to feel that Lee Harvey Oswald acted entirely +on his own without any assistance whatsoever. + +Now, whether this assistance was from my--from any member of any +government agency, or just individuals, I do not know. I do feel like +he had assistance of one nature or another, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, that does not answer Mr. Dulles' question. And I +want you to answer his question fully. + +Mr. DULLES. My question was really directed toward any security agency +of the United States Government. + +Mr. McKENZIE. If I may state your question, Mr. Dulles, to Mr. +Oswald--his question was whether or not any security agency of the +United States Government, whether it be the FBI, the Secret Service, +the CIA, or any Government agency, had any part in a conspiracy or +plot dealing with the events of November 22, and what your opinion is +concerning the same. + +Mr. DULLES. That is correctly stated. + +Mr. OSWALD. All right. + +I would correct my answer to this extent, sir. I would be of the +opinion that no agency of the United States Government was in any way +involved with the assassination of the President of the United States +on November 22, 1963. + +Does that answer the question? + +Mr. JENNER. Or in any way involved with your brother's, Lee Harvey +Oswald. Would you go that far? + +Mr. OSWALD. When we say involved, sir--excluding the interviews that I +am aware of and so forth. Yes, sir; I would be of that opinion. + +Mr. DULLES. To which you have testified with regard to the FBI and the +Immigration and Naturalization. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate further, please, when you first +undertook to answer Mr. Dulles question--you made some references to an +opinion on your part that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, must have +had some assistance. + +Would you please state what you had in mind there? Assistance with +what, sir? + +Mr. OSWALD. My opinion on that, sir, would be that, concluding that +Lee Harvey Oswald did actually shoot the President of the United +States and Governor Connally of Texas on November 22, 1963--I do feel +that he did have assistance to the extent that perhaps some money was +given to him, and that other types of assistance, such as perhaps +training and orientations as to perhaps the method to be used. + +I believe that would conclude my opinion on the assistance I had +reference to. + +Mr. JENNER. This is based, I gather from what you have just said, on +the assumption or opinion--I will say assumption first--that your +brother Lee Harvey Oswald did assassinate President Kennedy? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you have that opinion? + +Mr. OSWALD. That he did assassinate the President of the United States? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. On his own, sir? + +Mr. DULLES. Did he handle the gun and shoot the shots? + +Mr. JENNER. Let's take it in alternatives. You state it in your own +words. + +Mr. McKENZIE. He has stated this once before, but I am going to ask him +to state it again. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, I would like to have that clearly stated. + +Mr. OSWALD. Sir, as I previously testified to that question, based on +the circumstantial evidence that has been put forth and that I have +read from the newspapers and general impression of the time that the +event took place, and the subsequent following days of that event, that +I would be of the opinion, purely based on these circumstantial points, +that he did actually fire the rifle that killed the President of the +United States and wounded the Governor of Texas, Mr. Connally. + +Mr. DULLES. The same would apply to the attack on Officer Tippit? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would base my opinion on Officer Tippit's death, sir, +on my conversation with the District Attorney of Dallas, Tex., on +the morning of Saturday, November 23, 1963, at which time during our +conversation he said in his mind and based on the evidence and the eye +witnesses, that he was reported to have, that there was no question to +him that Lee Harvey Oswald did in fact kill Officer J. D. Tippit in +Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And you believe that would be correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe that would be correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you had any conversation with Marina---- + +Mr. DULLES. Just one point on that. + +You have testified that you felt that your brother did have or +would have required some outside help or assistance to do what he +did--roughly to that effect, I believe. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. DULLES. Have you any idea at all or any thoughts as to what kind of +help, where that could have come from, who was involved. + +I have in mind--was this in your opinion a rightist plot, a leftist +plot, an anarchist plot? + +Mr. OSWALD. If I may take your question, sir; in the parts that you +pointed out--I believe the first part was to where and how. + +Mr. DULLES. And who. + +Mr. JENNER. May have assisted. + +Mr. OSWALD. The where and the how, sir, I am not of any opinion. +And as to who might have assisted him, as related in my diary, or +memorandum---- + +Mr. JENNER. Identify the page, please. + +Mr. OSWALD. On page 6--and I quote--"I still do not know why or how, +but Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair." + +I am still of that opinion, sir. + +And as to any other persons that I might suggest was involved in any +way in this affair, I do not know of their names nor can I identify +them in any way. + +Mr. DULLES. As this covers two of my questions---- + +Mr. JENNER. Why don't you proceed. + +Mr. DULLES. May I proceed at this time. + +I will proceed with a couple of questions I have at this time. + +Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir; may I interrupt you here? And I would like +to add something to my previous statement there. + +Mr. DULLES. Please, yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps there is one other person that I feel like would +be involved in this affair, and the subsequent death of my brother, +Lee Harvey Oswald, and that was the man that actually shot Lee Harvey +Oswald, Mr. Jack Ruby or Mr. Rubenstein. And that would be the only +other party that I could possibly attempt to identify that I feel like +would have been involved and perhaps assisted Lee in this assassination. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please give us the basis of your opinion? + +Mr. OSWALD. I am of the opinion, as previously stated, based on +newspaper accounts and magazine articles of Mr. Ruby's activities, +to the best of my remembrance, as reported in one newspaper I recall +reading after November 24, 1963, that a period of a couple of months, 2 +or 3 months, prior to Mr. Ruby's killing my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, +in a Dallas police station, that he appeared at the Dallas police +station and started making acquaintances at the Dallas police station +to the extent that he, from then on, appeared frequently and was able +to move about the Dallas police station very easily. + +Based on that and the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald, I am of the +opinion that Mr. Ruby did in fact know Lee Harvey Oswald prior to +Sunday, November 23, 19--Sunday, November 24, 1963, and that he was in +my opinion paid to silence Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. DULLES. This is based on--this opinion is based on what you have +read in the press subsequent to November 22? + +Mr. OSWALD. November 24; sir, 1963, the day of my brother's death. Up +until that time I had never heard of Mr. Jack Ruby. + +Mr. DULLES. I was including all of the press accounts that carried +through from the time of the assassination. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, the witness has referred, of course, to events +immediately preceding November 22--that is Mr. Ruby's apparent interest +in--his frequent visits to the quarters--did you say the police +department? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; the Dallas police station. + +Mr. DULLES. I was trying to get at also--to cover what you had +previously said about possible aid in connection with the assassination +of the President. + +Is that based largely on what you have read subsequent thereto? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. DULLES. This question of mine covers the whole period of your +relationship with your brother. + +Do you recall during that entire period, up to November 22, that +your brother made any comments with regard to President Kennedy of a +derogatory nature or character or of any other character? Did he ever +discuss the President with you during the whole period? Of course, he +was only President for the last 3 years. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time that he ever mentioned +President Kennedy's name or referred to him in any way, either pro or +con. + +Mr. DULLES. Governor Connally--the same question. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not as Governor Connally. + +Mr. DULLES. Or as Secretary of the Navy? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; to the extent that he had mentioned his letter +to Governor Connally, his request for his assistance in correcting the +dishonorable or undesirable discharge that he had received from the +United States Marine Corps. + +Mr. DULLES. What was his comment with regard to Mr. Connally, Secretary +of the Navy, and later Governor? + +Mr. McKENZIE. If you recall, go ahead and tell him. But it is covered +in some of the letters previously introduced into testimony. + +Mr. JENNER. If there was any discussion, I would like to have that. And +I take it, Mr. Chairman, you are interested in that as well. + +Mr. DULLES. I am interested in that, because there has been some +testimony here from Mrs. Oswald to the general effect that he had not +expressed any antipathy to Secretary of the Navy and Governor Connally, +but rather the contrary. I would like to get your impression of that, +what he might have said to you on that subject. + +Mr. OSWALD. All right. + +I do recall a conversation at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., between +myself and Lee Harvey Oswald---- + +Mr. JENNER. Fix the time, please. + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the middle part of June 1962, at which +time the subject was brought up by him about his efforts to have the +discharge corrected to an honorable discharge, and that again he +advised me that he had written to the then Secretary of the Navy, John +B. Connally, and that Mr. Connally, or his office had replied that he +was no longer the Secretary of the Navy, and that he had turned over +the correspondence to the then Secretary of the Navy, Mr. Korth, I +believe. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Fred Korth. + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any further discussion on that subject. And +he did not indicate to me the pro or con of any antipathy toward Mr. +Connally. + +Mr. DULLES. He expressed no antipathy? + +Mr. JENNER. As a person? + +Mr. OSWALD. As a person, he did not make any comment, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And did he at any time, apart from this particular event +you are now relating, at any time prior to November 22, 1963, ever +express any antipathy toward Governor Connally as a person? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you ever hear Marina Oswald express any views about +President Kennedy one way or the other? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time that she has expressed +any views on Mr. Kennedy. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you recall at any time that Lee Harvey Oswald expressed +antipathy to government in general, people in authority, leaders? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he express any--apart from the letters, what he said +in his letters to you, which we have--but after he returned from the +Soviet Union, and during the period you saw him, subsequent to his +return, did he ever discuss with you the failures of government, that +government itself was not good, or if the kind of government we had in +the United States was not good, as was expressed to some extent in the +letters? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time other than in his +letters during the period of the latter part of 1959, at any time that +he made any derogatory remarks about any official or any particular +leader or the government of the United States. + +Mr. DULLES. And that statement would include General Walker, would it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it most certainly would. + +Mr. DULLES. He never discussed General Walker with you? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I never heard him mention the gentleman's name. + +Mr. DULLES. Did your brother have any sort of pet hatreds, +institutions, people or otherwise, that he disliked, apart from what he +said in his letters? + +I am talking now of the period after his return from Russia. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; to my knowledge he did not. + +Mr. DULLES. I have nothing further at this time. I may have one last +question at the end. + +Do you wish to follow up on any of these points? + +Mr. JENNER. No; not right at the moment. + +Would you take your diary. There are one or two items that I would like +to clear up. + +Page 1--you speak of the old Denton plant and the new Denton plant. +Would you please locate those plants? + +Mr. OSWALD. They are both located at Denton, Tex., and they are located +approximately a mile apart, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And they are the plants of the Acme Brick Co. by whom you +are employed? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And the reason I asked you about these is that you talk +about going from the old to the new plant, and I wanted to locate them. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The incident in New Orleans in which your brother was +distributing literature of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee--did that +come to your attention at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that did not. + +Mr. JENNER. And when was the first time that you became--you ever heard +of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, or anything about it? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe this to be, sir, to the best of my remembrance, +on Friday night, November 22, 1963, at the FBI office in Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. DULLES. You are referring there, I assume, to Lee Harvey Oswald's +connection with the committee, aren't you? Or are you referring to the +fact whether he knew there was a committee. + +Mr. JENNER. Both. + +I will separate those. Did you know there was such a committee at any +time up to that occasion--had you heard of its existence? + +Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps I had read about it in the paper and not recalling +any significant value to myself I perhaps had forgotten about it. + +Mr. JENNER. Then I will ask you the other part. + +Had you heard of any connection on the part of your brother with or any +activity on his part with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, +prior to November 22, 1963. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. + +Mr. DULLES. You knew nothing of his short arrest in New Orleans? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. DULLES. You didn't even know he was arrested? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I did not even know he had traveled from Dallas, +Tex., to New Orleans, until that night of November 22, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. Page 2 of your memorandum--you recited there that an +announcer--I assume a radio station announcer--called you. Did you find +that? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do find the area that you are referring to. The +announcer did not call me, sir. It was the radio announcer on the radio. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +And what did the announcer say? + +Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance, sir, the announcer stated +that a man identified as Lee Oswald had been arrested in connection +with a policeman's death and possibly the death of the President of the +United States on or about that approximate time. + +Mr. JENNER. And was that the first intimation of any kind or character, +or the first notice or knowledge to you, of the possible involvement +of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, either in the murder of Policeman +Tippit or in the assassination of President Kennedy. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And where were you when that announcement was made? + +Mr. OSWALD. I was in the office of the new Denton plant when this +announcement was made, or at least I first became aware of the +announcement on the radio at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you give us your immediate mental reaction when +you heard that? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, my reaction to that would be somewhat +stunned. + +Mr. JENNER. Stunned in the sense of disbelieving? You just could not +absorb it? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to that extent. If I may say this. My own +personal mental attitude, through my entire life, seems to react to +trouble to the extent that I do not perhaps go to pieces, so to speak, +that I react apparently calmly in the face of adversity. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it with that disposition that you have that anything +in life is possible--no matter how extraordinary it may seem at the +moment--you retain a grip on yourself? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; or at least attempt to. + +Mr. JENNER. You were disbelieving, but it might have been--at least +your thought was that it was possible, though, you were disbelieving +at the moment? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Then you state in your memorandum on page 2 that you +immediately called your wife Vada. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you went directly to the phone and called her? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you say to her? + +Mr. OSWALD. I asked her first had she been listening to the television +or the radio set, and was she aware that Lee had been arrested. She +stated she had not heard this, even though she had been listening to +television. In her statement to me, to the best of my recollection at +that time, was that they had not, over the television set, referred to +Lee by name. + +Mr. JENNER. And, as I recall in your memorandum, you immediately told +her you were going to come right home. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you did depart for home? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. On page 3 of your memorandum, you make a reference to your +brother's arrest. + +Would you find that place on page 3? The report to you of his arrest. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have it. + +Mr. JENNER. And as I recall, that was a report to you that he had been +arrested? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. By whom, and by what means? + +Mr. OSWALD. Over the telephone, by Mr. Dubose, the credit manager in +our Fort Worth general office. And, "Bob, brace yourself, your brother +has been arrested." + +Mr. JENNER. What did you say? + +Mr. OSWALD. "Yes; I know. I just heard." + +Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Dubose elaborate? Did he say only your brother has +been arrested? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. To the best of my recollection that was his exact +words. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he add, if I may refresh your recollection, assuming it +is so, that he had been arrested in connection with the assassination +of President Kennedy, and the murder of Officer Tippit? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe I did not give him an opportunity, if he +wanted to state that, to complete his statement. + +Mr. JENNER. You have now given us the whole of that particular +conversation? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +If I might add--other than that as noted on page 3, that he did advise +me that my mother was trying to reach me, and gave me a number to call. + +Mr. JENNER. I wish to go to that next. You did call her? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And where was she? To where was your call directed? + +Mr. OSWALD. To Fort Worth, Tex., to which address I am not acquainted, +but the telephone number is her residence in Fort Worth, Tex. I believe +that to be 1220 Thomas Place. + +Mr. JENNER. And when you called that number, your mother was home? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +What did you say to her? + +Mr. OSWALD. My comment to her that this was Robert, and she immediately +started advising me of what she had heard, and that she had been in +contact with a Star Telegram reporter. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the Star Telegram reporter for the Dallas Star +Telegram? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, for the Fort Worth Star Telegram, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. + +Mr. OSWALD. And that she was going to go to Dallas in the presence of +this Fort Worth Star Telegram, and she asked me did I have enough money +to fly down immediately. + +I advised her I was 35 or 30 miles away from Dallas, Tex., that I was +not in Arkansas, and that it was my intention to go to Dallas just as +fast as possible. And she stated that she believed she would stay at +the Baker Hotel, and asked me to meet her there. + +I agreed to this. However, this meeting never did take place at the +Baker Hotel. + +Mr. JENNER. A meeting did take place at the Adolphus? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. As prior testimony--at the Dallas police station, +on the night of November 22, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. You referred to, on page 3--to a Fort Worth general office, +and a gentleman by the name of Reger. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is the Fort Worth general office of the Acme Brick +Co.? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. You mentioned another gentleman there. I don't know if I +read your writing correctly. Bill---- + +Mr. OSWALD. Darwin. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you speak with him on that occasion that you related in +your notes? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was the purpose of your talking with those +gentlemen? + +Mr. OSWALD. The purpose of talking to Mr. Darwin was to advise him that +I needed to go to Dallas, and his immediate reply was yes, he had just +heard--I believe he did say--about Lee, or about my brother, and that I +was to do just anything that I deemed necessary and not worry about the +office. + +And he did inform me at the latter part of this conversation that the +FBI had called the Fort Worth general office in an attempt to talk to +me or to locate me. + +Mr. JENNER. Was any suggestion made by him at that time that you get in +touch with the Fort Worth Office of the FBI? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I advised him that I would contact the FBI upon +completion of our conversation. + +Mr. JENNER. And you did so? + +Mr. OSWALD. I did so. + +Mr. JENNER. And a reference to that---- + +Mr. DULLES. By telephone? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. A reference to that appears on page 4 of your memorandum. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. I won't go into that interview. But on that occasion, and +all other occasions when you had interviews with, or were interviewed +either by the FBI or Secret Service, you related the whole truth and +nothing but the truth to the best of your knowledge and information at +the time you were being interviewed? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. At this moment, had you contacted anyone other than those +you have now mentioned? + +Up to this point of the sequence of events? + +Mr. OSWALD. May I qualify that question--outside of my office in +Denton, Tex., sir. + +Mr. JENNER. The office in Denton, Tex., the call to your mother, the +call to Mrs. Oswald, your wife Vada, the call to the FBI office. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Are all of the contacts that you had and all of the +occasions of interviews during the period November 22, 1963, through +the following week, November 25, recorded in your memorandum? + +Mr. DULLES. I wonder if to save time we could ask him to review that +memorandum and to report if he finds that there are other calls that +were made. + +Mr. JENNER. Will that be acceptable to you, Mr. McKenzie? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Fine. + +Mr Dulles, it is a quarter of one. Being as how it is a quarter of one, +I know you have a luncheon meeting to go to. Our plane does not leave +until 5 o'clock. We have to leave here no later than 3:30. We will be +glad to have lunch and come back, if it would suit your convenience. + +Mr. JENNER. There are a couple of things, in the interests really of +Mr. Oswald, that have turned up, when I studied the memorandum last +night, that I am sure Mr. McKenzie would like to have. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes; I would like to give Mr. McKenzie plenty of time. + +If the car is there, I can wait another 5 or 10 minutes. But I think +that it would be better if I were to come back. + +We will recess at this time until 2 p.m. + +(Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +Afternoon Session + +TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED + + +The President's Commission reconvened at 2:30 p.m. + +Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order. + +Mr. JENNER. Returning to page 1 of your memorandum, as I recall your +recording of the events of that day, November 22, 1963, you first +learned of the assassination or attempted assassination as of that +moment of President Kennedy while you were at lunch with some fellow +workers. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And would you identify those fellow workers, please? + +Mr. OSWALD. If I might---- + +Mr. McKENZIE. I ask you to withdraw that. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. You don't like the expression "fellow workers"? + +Mr. DULLES. You object to the whole question, or just the way it was +phrased? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Let's rephrase it, Mr. Dulles, if I may, please. + +Mr. JENNER. I will yield to you, Mr. McKenzie. Fellow employees. + +Mr. McKENZIE. That is fine. + +Mr. JENNER. You were at lunch with fellow employees of Acme Brick Co.? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify those gentlemen? + +Mr. OSWALD. They are Mr. Bill Darwin, the director of marketing +of the Acme Brick Co., Mr. Burnett Henry, director of plants and +transportation of the Acme Brick Co., Mr. Bob Oech, who is the Texas +division plant manager. + +Mr. JENNER. Of Acme Brick Co.? + +Mr. OSWALD. Of Acme Brick Co. + +And Mr. Bud Adams, who is the plant manager of both the old and new +Denton plants. + +Mr. JENNER. And it was at this time and on this occasion at lunchtime +that you first heard any intimation or otherwise of the assassination +or attempted assassination of President Kennedy? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. At the completion of our lunch, as we were +departing from the restaurant, as noted in my memorandum, page 1. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you speak on that page of driving in an automobile, +either all or some of you gentlemen. + +Whose automobile was that? + +Mr. OSWALD. All of us were in one automobile, and we were in Mr. +Burnett Henry's automobile. + +Mr. JENNER. And I take it--did the automobile have a radio in it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you gentlemen have the radio in operation? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we did. + +Mr. JENNER. And listening to it? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you listening to anything in particular? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What? + +Mr. OSWALD. We were listening to a newscast of the events that had +already taken place in Dallas, Tex., at approximately 12:30 that +afternoon. + +Mr. JENNER. And you record the time in your notebook? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--as approximately 1 p.m., sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I think we had reached page 6 of your memorandum. + +You record on pages 4 and 5--I think towards the bottom of page 4, and +the upper portion of page 5--your meeting that day or early evening +with Marina and, I believe your mother--but at least Marina. + +Is that correct? + +In Dallas? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And just for the purpose of making sure of the record, I +gather from your testimony yesterday that this was the first time that +you had seen Marina since Thanksgiving Day of 1962? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And where did this visit take place--where did you meet her +on this occasion? + +Mr. OSWALD. At the Dallas police station. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she have either or both of her children with her? + +Mr. OSWALD. She had both of her children with her. + +Mr. JENNER. That would include the infant Rachel? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you advised at any time prior to this occasion that +her second child had been born to her? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not been. + +Mr. JENNER. And this was the first information you had on this subject? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. You probably knew that a child was contemplated. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, he might not. + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I wasn't aware of that. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you even up to that moment been advised directly or +indirectly that Marina had been pregnant, from which pregnancy the +child Rachel had been born? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not been advised. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there an interpreter present at the time you visited +with Marina; as I recall your mother was present, also. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there an interpreter there at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. There was a Mrs. Paine there, who was acting as an +interpreter. + +Mr. JENNER. You have now named everybody present--yourself, Marina, and +her two children, your mother, yourself, and Mrs. Paine. + +Mr. OSWALD. With the exception, sir, that there was a police officer, +or my assumption that he was a police officer, in the room. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he in uniform or plain clothes? + +Mr. OSWALD. Plain clothes. + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Paine was not there at this time? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he was not. + +Mr. DULLES. He came later that day, did he? + +Mr. OSWALD. Just a very few minutes after this meeting. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine then acted as interpreter between yourself and +Marina and between her and others in the party? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything in the presence of everybody to her +with respect to the birth of her second child, which came as a complete +surprise to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. If memory serves me correct, sir, I did make some type of +statement to that effect. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you express surprise? + +Mr. OSWALD. I feel certain that I did, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall now--you walked into the room, and there was +Marina with these others, but with two children, one an infant that +you had not seen before. Was it immediately explained to you? Did you +inquire as to the identity of the infant? Can you reconstruct that for +us? + +Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance on that, sir, possibly +during the preceding half hour, when I was talking with my mother, she +possibly--this I am not clear--advised me of the second child. If she +did not, I was, of course, much more surprised when I walked into the +room where Marina was holding the infant. I remember looking at the +infant, as Marina held the infant, and making some type of comment +about whether or not it was a boy or girl and how old it was. + +Mr. JENNER. I don't recall this recorded in your memorandum--and it may +very well be--that the preceding half hour you had had a meeting or +conference with your mother? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And was that--in whose presence was that conference? + +Mr. OSWALD. First in the presence of two or three FBI agents, and a +Star Telegram reporter, Fort Worth Star Telegram reporter, at the +Dallas police station. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you record that event in your memorandum? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do, on page 5. + +Mr. JENNER. On page 6 there is a reference, I think I have interpreted +your writing, to a Mr. Cummings. Would you find that place on page 6? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have it. + +Mr. JENNER. Do I interpret your writing correctly? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. I believe his name to be a Lieutenant +Cummings. + +Mr. JENNER. That is what I sought. He was an officer of the Dallas +police force? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. I believe you record on page 6, that Mr. Cummings, +Lieutenant Cummings, or some other--well, I don't want to interpret +what you do record--but you received a report at that time, according +to your memorandum, of the fact of the arrest of your brother, Lee, in +connection with the murder of Officer Tippit. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the first information you had that your brother had +actually been arrested in connection with that incident? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. When had you first received information in that respect? + +Mr. OSWALD. As my prior testimony stated, at the office, at the new +Denton plant, when Lee's name was first mentioned, stating that he had +been arrested in regards to the shooting to death of a police officer, +and possibly the President of the United States. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Page 7--did you, at the time of the events recorded on page 7, see or +request to see your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And of whom did you make that request? + +First I would put it this way: Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald on that +day or evening? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. But you did make a request? Of whom did you make that +request? + +Mr. OSWALD. To a police officer. I cannot recall his name. He +reportedly passed on my request to captain of police, Captain Fritz. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was his response? + +Mr. OSWALD. The police officer who passed on my request asked that I +stay around, that Captain Fritz was quite busy, that he would see me +later. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you see Captain Fritz later? + +Mr. OSWALD. I did see him, but I did not talk to him. By this, I mean +he was in his glass office, within an office, and I did see him through +the glass, but I did not talk to Captain Fritz. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the disposition of your--at least as of that +day--of your request to see your brother? + +Mr. OSWALD. None, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Not decided either way? + +Mr. OSWALD. I never did receive an answer either way, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +And you eventually left the police station, did you? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. You record on page 7 that you walked to your automobile, do +you not? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you trace your course from the time you left the +Dallas City police office to the time you retired that evening? + +Mr. OSWALD. You are referring to the time that I first left the Dallas +police office? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes--start there, and trace your steps to the time you +retired for the evening. + +Mr. OSWALD. Well, my departure of the Dallas police office--I walked to +my car that was in a parking lot approximately seven blocks away. + +Mr. JENNER. About what time of day or evening was this? + +Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, approximately 8 o'clock at +night, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. When you left the Dallas police office or +station, did you then have a definite route in mind as to where you +were going? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. You had no arrangements with anybody, and no one had any +with you, with respect to where you might or could go? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed, please. + +Mr. OSWALD. On arrival at my car in the parking lot in Dallas, Tex., I +started to drive, I did drive to Fort Worth, Tex., by Highway 80. + +Mr. JENNER. You were then--you then had in mind doing what--returning +home? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that was not the direction of home, sir. I did not +have anything in mind other than I wanted to drive and to arrange my +thoughts at that particular time. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Now, you do say, and I quote from your memorandum, "I was attempting to +arrange my thoughts and my fears." + +Do you find that expression on page 7? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please explain to the Commission what was +meant when you recorded the sentence, "I was attempting to arrange my +thoughts and my fears"? + +Mr. OSWALD. What I meant by that statement, sir--not being +disrespectful--I believe it speaks for itself in view of the happenings +of the day. To further elaborate on that, I wanted to have some time +by myself to think about the happenings of the day and the arrest of +my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, and the reference to my fears, whether +or not he could have possibly done this. He had been up to that time +either accused or arrested for the death of Police Officer J. D. +Tippit, and the investigation that was now going on in Dallas as to +the death of the President of the United States and the wounding of +Governor Connally, of Texas. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. You were then driving in your automobile. + +Did you actually reach Fort Worth? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And then what did you do? + +Mr. OSWALD. After driving through Fort Worth, to the west side of Fort +Worth, I turned around and headed back toward Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Up to this point it was continuous driving, +except as you might have been resting or waiting a change of stoplight +or something of that character? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did anybody contact you, or did you speak with anybody +during the period of this drive up to the moment we now have reached? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. You reversed your course and then where did +you go? + +Mr. OSWALD. When I reversed my course, I still did not have any idea +as to exactly where I was going. But I did reverse my course, and I +started driving on the turnpike between Fort Worth and Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Does that have a highway number? + +I notice you mentioned a Highway 80. + +Is that the same as the turnpike? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is not. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that, please? + +Mr. OSWALD. Highway 80 is on the old highway from Fort Worth to Dallas, +the turnpike being a later and more modern trafficway. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And a toll road. + +Mr. OSWALD. And a toll road. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you take Highway 80 in going to Fort Worth? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. But you returned by the toll road? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. + +I take it you continued your drive--continued to drive along, while you +were attempting to rearrange your thoughts. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And you eventually arrived where? + +Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas, Tex., sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you become a guest of a hotel; did you register +anywhere? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Where? + +Mr. OSWALD. At the Statler Hilton Hotel. + +Mr. JENNER. In Dallas? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, up to that moment, having in mind your route, had +anybody contacted you, had you spoken with anybody? Up to the time that +you entered the Statler Hilton Hotel to register? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had spoken to somebody. + +Mr. JENNER. Who was that? + +Mr. OSWALD. A gas station attendant midway on the turnpike where I +stopped to buy gas. + +Mr. JENNER. But other than that incident, you had no contact with +anyone? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. You registered? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you go to your room? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. DULLES. Approximately what time was this? + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 10:30 p.m., that night, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. After registering, did you retire for the evening, or did +you go somewhere? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not retire for the evening. I did, in fact, +go into the coffee room of the Statler Hilton Hotel in Dallas, and have +a ham sandwich and some milk, and shortly after completing this, I +walked across the street, which was approximately a half a block down +the street, to the Dallas police station again. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Now, up to that moment, other than was necessary for you to register +and your conversation with a waitress, in connection with your having +some evening lunch, did you have any contact with anybody? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact at all of any kind or character up +to this moment with anybody in connection with the events of the day? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +You went across the street to the Dallas City police station? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you had an appointment? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your purpose in going across the street for that +visit? + +Mr. OSWALD. I wanted to speak to Captain Fritz, if possible. + +Mr. JENNER. You record on page 8 that you entered the Dallas police +station, you were interviewed or consulted by some FBI agents in a +small office. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall their names? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it in any event, however, that they questioned you, +did they? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And were all the answers that you gave the truth and +nothing but the truth to the best of your information, recollection, +and belief, at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. It most certainly was, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. + +When did you learn, if you ever learned, that your brother, Lee Harvey +Oswald, had in fact been charged with the assassination of President +Kennedy? + +Mr. OSWALD. At approximately midnight or a few minutes before midnight, +November 22, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that recorded on page 8 of your memorandum? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it is. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction when that information was conveyed +to you? What were your thoughts? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall if I had any thoughts at that particular +time, sir. I did not make any comment that I recall. I believe I just +shook my head. + +Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you in connection with page 8, your +opinion respecting the possible involvement of your brother, Lee Harvey +Oswald, in the assassination of President Kennedy, but Mr. Dulles this +morning in his questions has covered that subject, so I will skip it. + +Now, did you see Captain Fritz that evening? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to see him? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire further with respect to an opportunity on +your part that you wished to see your brother? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had been told so many times that Captain Fritz +was quite busy, and I realize, of course, he was, and I let it go at +that. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, following your visit to the police station, which you +do record there, and therefore I won't go into it further, what did you +do that evening? + +Mr. OSWALD. I returned to my hotel, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And retired? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, between the time you left the Statler Hilton Hotel and +the time you returned there to retire, were you contacted by anybody +or did you have any conversation with anybody respecting the course of +events of the day, other than you have recorded in your memorandum? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. And I might add I did register under +my regular name at the Statler Hilton. + +Mr. JENNER. I didn't even think to ask you that, because I assumed it +was so. + +On page 9, you record and report the following morning an occasion when +you were in the barber shop of the Statler Hilton, obtaining a shave. +Isn't that correct, sir? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And you also record an observation by one or both of the +barbers, I think the gentleman who was shaving you, on the subject of +your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald deserved a fair trial like anybody else. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And then you end up that comment, "but I did leave my +barber a 50-cent tip." + +That followed an observation on your part that you did not engage in +that conversation, and you merely listened. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you indicate to me the significance if there +is any significance, of the expression "but I did leave my barber a +50-cent tip." + +Mr. OSWALD. The only significance, sir, that I put to it at that time +was that for the first time I was listening to somebody other than +police officers and FBI agents as to the past events of the preceding +day, and I was more or less hearing again for the first time a +reaction, either--pro and con, to these two gentlemen's opinions, who I +would take at that time would be average people, as to whether or not +Lee did have a right to a fair trial, regardless of what he had done or +been accused of. + +Mr. JENNER. And do I take it a fair interpretation of your comment is +that you were pleased that average everyday people, that their reaction +was that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, was entitled to, and they +hoped he would obtain a fair and impartial trial when put to trial? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And your reference to a 50-cent tip was an emphasis in +your own mind of your pleasure that a spontaneous reaction of ordinary +people was that he was entitled to and they hoped he would receive a +fair and impartial trial? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to page 10, please? You record events--you +were then in the district attorney's office? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. You refer to a "H. Wade." Who is H. Wade? + +Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Henry Wade. + +Mr. JENNER. And what office did he hold? + +Mr. OSWALD. Dallas District Attorney. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +I don't know as I interpret your handwriting clearly. It looks to me as +though you have written reference to a Jim Bowie. Who was Jim Bowie? + +Mr. OSWALD. First assistant district attorney to Mr. Henry Wade. + +Mr. JENNER. On page 10 you use--you make a reference to, or a comment +with regard to a conversation which I take it took place between you +and Mr. Wade and Mr. Bowie, either or both of them, which was "not too +informative." Do you find that? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do see the section that you are referring +to--if I may elaborate on that. + +Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you elaborate. + +Mr. OSWALD. "Not too informative on either side." + +Mr. JENNER. Either side of what? + +Mr. OSWALD. Referring to the district attorney's office as one side and +my side as the other side. + +Mr. JENNER. On what issue? + +Mr. OSWALD. Of the conversations that we had in reference to the legal +standing of Lee Harvey Oswald or to his guilt, of the accusations that +had been--that he had been charged with. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to page 12? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. There is a reference there to a conversation as to whether +Lee Harvey Oswald would say anything to you when and if you interviewed +him. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you have in mind as to the subject matter about +which Lee Harvey Oswald might speak with you? + +Mr. OSWALD. To the amount of involvement, if any, with relation to the +death of the President of the United States on November 22, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. You were then contemplating your prospective conversation +with him? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And you use an expression also there that you would do your +best. Do you find that? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you would do your best to do what, sir? + +Mr. OSWALD. To find out. + +Mr. JENNER. From whom? + +Mr. OSWALD. From Lee Harvey Oswald, during our conversation or our---- + +Mr. JENNER. Your prospective interview? + +Mr. OSWALD. Our prospective interview, whether or not he did in fact +perform the acts, either alone or with other people, that he had been +accused of. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Now, following that conversation that you do record on that page, did +you see your brother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Where? + +Mr. OSWALD. Dallas police station. + +Mr. JENNER. Will you describe the surroundings? + +Mr. OSWALD. I was taken up on the elevator by a Dallas police +officer--Mr. Tom Kelley, inspector from Washington, D.C., U.S. Secret +Service joined us, and one agent, Mr. Mike Howard. On arrival to the +floor where Lee was being held, the police officer passed through a +glass slot in the window to another police officer the pass, I believe +signed by Captain Fritz, which authorization was for me to see Lee +Harvey Oswald. Two or three minutes went by, and I was advised that he +was now ready to see me, and I was taken to a small room to the left of +the elevators on this floor, and no one else was in this room on his +side, or my side of the glass partitions that separated the locked side +from the unlocked side. + +And Lee was standing there before me on the other side of the glass. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you have the impression that the officers had told your +brother that you were the one who was coming to see him? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. DULLES. Because you just said that the officer said he was ready to +see you, and I gained the impression from that---- + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--whether or not I meant by that that--I do not +believe that was my full meaning on that statement, because I was not +aware that they had actually told Lee that it was me he was about to +see. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you converse with your brother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. By what means? + +Mr. OSWALD. By telephone, while looking at him through the glass +partition. + +Mr. DULLES. How far apart were you, roughly? + +Mr. OSWALD. Just a matter of inches. + +Mr. JENNER. How long were you in that room, conversing with your +brother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 10 minutes. + +Mr. JENNER. And as near as you can recall, what did he say to you and +what did you say to him? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do recall to the best of my ability his first statement +to me was "How are you?" + +My reply was "I am fine." + +I asked him how he was--as I observed the cuts and bruises on his face. +He said he was just fine, and that they were treating him okay. I +believe his next statement was at this time "I cannot or would not say +anything because the line is apparently tapped." + +I did not comment on that, and he rather carried the conversation for 2 +or 3 minutes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you repeat it to us as best you can recall it, please? + +Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I do not recall this particular part of the +conversation. + +Mr. JENNER. Just do your best. + +Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir, I just cannot recall that particular part +of the conversation. I might comment on that particular part to this +extent. That I felt that it was rather a mechanical conversation from +his standpoint. He seemed to be speaking very fast, and there was +approximately 2 or 3 minutes of him speaking in this nature. Then I +took the initiative and started speaking to him about the family. + +Mr. JENNER. His family? + +Mr. OSWALD. About the family, including his family, my family. And, +also, at this time, when we talked about his family in particular--I +believe my question to him was "What about Marina and the children?" + +His reply to me at that time was "Don't worry about them. The Paines +will take care of them"--that his friends, the Paines, would take care +of them satisfactorily. + +Mr. JENNER. That Lee's friends, the Paines, would take care of them +satisfactorily? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +My reply to him on that was what he considered to be his friends were +not mine. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he respond to that? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Were you the first member of the family to see him, or had +Marina seen him the day before? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Both Marina and Marguerite had seen him before. + +Mr. OSWALD. Earlier that afternoon, sir. I was the last member of the +family to see him. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything about the new child, Rachel? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you raise that, or did he? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you say? + +Mr. OSWALD. I simply stated that I had seen the new baby and was not +aware of it at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Not aware that the baby had been born? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he respond to that? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say? + +Mr. OSWALD. He smiled and stated he had hoped for a boy rather than a +girl. His further comment was, "Well, you know how that goes." + +Mr. JENNER. He said nothing, I take it, then, by way of apology or +otherwise that you had not theretofore been informed of the birth of +this child? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. You record on page 13 of your memorandum--you use this +expression: "I was not talking to the Lee I knew." + +Do you find that? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you read that full sentence? + +Mr. OSWALD. "He talked about the Paines as his friends and that they +would take care of Marina and the children." + +Excuse me--I started too soon. + +Mr. JENNER. That is all right. + +Mr. OSWALD. "I stated who he considered to be his friends were not +necessarily mine. I did this to try to get through to him. To me his +answers were mechanical and I was not talking to the Lee I knew." + +Mr. JENNER. Were you able to get through to him? Did you feel you got +through to him? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. + +Mr. JENNER. And would you elaborate, please, on your expression "I was +not talking to the Lee I knew"? + +Mr. OSWALD. I was referring more specifically to the first part of +our conversation, where his conversation seemed to me, as previously +stated, very mechanical. + +Mr. JENNER. You had the feeling he was not exposing himself fully to +you? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this the last time you ever saw your brother? + +Mr. OSWALD. Alive, sir? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was. + +Mr. JENNER. On page 14 you record a later conversation after you had +left your brother--you have an expression there along the lines that +you agreed with someone that if the conversation had been person to +person, that things might have been different. Do you find that? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please elaborate on what you meant by that? + +Mr. OSWALD. By "we" in that paragraph, sir, on page 14, I am talking +about Mr. Tom Kelley, Inspector from Washington, D.C., United States +Secret Service, and agent, Mr. Mike Howard. + +Our discussion was of the nature--I related to them as best I could +remember my entire conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald on that +afternoon of November 23, 1963, and I was of the opinion, or perhaps +expressed, either by Mr. Kelley or Mr. Mike Howard, that had we been +placed in a room facing each other, perhaps more could have been +learned or something could have been learned about whether or not he +was actually guilty or how much he was involved in the assassination of +the President of the United States. + +Mr. JENNER. Could I elaborate on that? If you talked person to person +to him in a room, in which there was assurance there was no bugging, +nobody listening to your conversation, that you might have been able to +obtain more information from him? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that a fair summary? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. If you wish him to elaborate or expand or amend that, Mr. +McKenzie, it is perfectly all right with me. + +Mr. McKENZIE. No--that is all right. + +Mr. JENNER. Does Mr. Oswald wish to elaborate? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I have concluded my examination. + +On behalf of myself and the staff, I express to Mr. Oswald and to Mr. +McKenzie our appreciation for the splendid cooperation that we have +received, and the frank and direct answers that the witness has given +to all of the questions I have put to him. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. I am very glad that was put on the record. I entirely share +it for the Commission. + +Mr. OSWALD. If I could, possibly, sir, at this time---- + +Mr. JENNER. Would you like to add anything? + +Mr. OSWALD. I would like to make one little statement in regard to my +memorandum, on page 12. + +Mr. JENNER. Proceed. + +Mr. OSWALD. In relation or reference to my intentions at that time, as +it is now, as recorded on page 12, "Intentions then as now was to find +out the truth and nothing else." + +Thank you. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you. + +I have one question, only one. + +You testified, I believe, yesterday that when you met your brother at +the airport, upon his return from the Soviet Union, that he seemed +somewhat disappointed that the press was not there to meet him and talk +with him. + +Do you recall, in your relations with your brother, any other instances +where he appeared to desire publicity? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is my opinion that that was the only time that +I felt like possibly he did want publicity. At later dates, at my home, +in Fort Worth, Tex., where they stayed, on quite a few occasions, +either by telephone call or the newspaper reporter actually coming to +my home, he stated he did not want to speak to him, and he did not want +to see them, and they did not, sir, while he was in the presence of my +home. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much. + +Mr. JENNER. May I ask one further thing? + +What is your religion? + +Mr. OSWALD. I was raised in the Lutheran religion, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. And were all three of you boys so reared? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you steady churchgoers? Or were you churchgoers at all? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, we were. + +Mr. JENNER. All three of you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were. + +Mr. JENNER. I have nothing further. + +Mr. DULLES. I want to join Mr. Jenner in expressing to you and your +counsel, Mr. McKenzie, our thanks for your full and I believe frank +testimony. I think you have been very helpful to us. I wish to thank +you for it. + +Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. And we hope that we have been of some help. + +Mr. JENNER. You have. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for that statement, and +likewise, Mr. Jenner, I appreciate on behalf of myself and Mr. Oswald +your statement for the record. + +I only have a few brief questions, Mr. Chairman, if I may, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. These are to be put to your client? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. Although I will say this at this time--that +the Chair has very generously, and Mr. Jenner likewise, granted me the +opportunity to question or ask Mr. Oswald questions as we proceeded +along. + +Robert, there is a contract which has been introduced into the record, +and I believe it is Commission Exhibit No. 277, which contract is dated +December 9, 1963, and it is signed by Marina N. Oswald and yourself, +and approved as to form by John M. Thorne, Attorney, and James H. +Martin. In this contract, it provides that Marina Oswald has appointed +you as an assistant business manager to Mr. Martin. And in the last +paragraph of the contract there is a statement to the effect that +she has employed the firm of Thorne and Leach, attorneys-at-law, and +further agreed that their services will be available at all times to +yourself and that you will use same as required by you. + +Now, my question to you is this: Have you ever at any time employed Mr. +John M. Thorne to represent you? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Has Mr. Thorne ever represented you in any capacity? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he has not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. All right, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. May I just ask one question? + +Mr. McKenzie now is your appointed lawyer? + +Mr. OSWALD. He is my selected lawyer. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Did Lee Harvey Oswald ever tell you or advise you, or has +Marina N. Oswald told you of any trips that Lee took, or cities that +he visited in Russia, other than Moscow, Minsk, or the hunting trip he +took while he was in Russia reported in your diary? Or reported not in +your diary, but reported in the letters to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know of any cities or any places that he might +have gone in Russia, other than the two cities that I have named, and +the hunting trip that he took as reported in the letter to you, which +has been introduced into evidence? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not aware of any other cities. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Did Marina N. Oswald have either June Oswald, her +two-year-old child, or Rachel, her infant child, baptized, to your +knowledge? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she has. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And where was that, sir? + +Mr. OSWALD. It is my understanding that this took place in Dallas, +Tex., some time in the year of 1963, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. You are speaking now of June? + +Mr. OSWALD. I am speaking now of June. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Has the baby Rachel been baptized as of this time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know what faith June was baptized in? By faith I +refer to what particular church or denomination. + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, this was the Greek Orthodox Church. + +Mr. McKENZIE. From your acquaintance with Marina Oswald, and based on +your discussions with her, both in your home and elsewhere, including +cemetery visits which you have made with her, do you now consider +and believe that Marina N. Oswald is a Christian and believes in the +teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Has she professed such faith to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. Not directly, sir--only by implication, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Do you believe or have you formed an opinion now, based +on your discussions and observations of Marina Oswald, as to whether or +not Marina N. Oswald is a Communist or a Soviet agent, either now or at +any time since you met her at Dallas, Love Field, in June of 1962? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not believe that she is any of those things. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Now, do you think she is a Communist? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Do you have any opinion as to whether or not she is at +this time or since she arrived in this country? + +Mr. OSWALD. I am of the opinion that she is not, based on my +observations of her reactions and her conversations with me. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, have I or has anyone at any time coached +or briefed you--and if you don't understand what I mean by the word +"coached" please tell me so--as to what you should testify here before +this Commission, other than my cautioning you not to speculate or use +conjecture? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; you have not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Has anyone? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they have not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Have you told the Commission---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--that anyone includes any member of the staff of +this Commission? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And likewise it includes, does it not, any member of the +FBI, or the Secret Service or any other Federal agency? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And the same would apply to any State agency of Texas? + +Mr. OSWALD. Sir, that would apply to anybody, no matter what his +position with any government agency or individual. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Now, have you told the Commission during the hearings +here, since you have been testifying, only the facts as you knew them, +or the facts as you know them now? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And have you expressed opinions or speculated only when +the Commission or Mr. Jenner or myself have asked you to do so? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Have you testified, Mr. Oswald, truthfully to the best of +your recollection in each instance? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And in the event you have inadvertently made any mistake +on dates, addresses, or facts, do you now ask the Chairman's permission +to change your answer and correct any mistakes which you might have +made in the event a mistake is at any time hereafter called to your +attention? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do so. + +Mr. DULLES. Well, could I supplement that? In the event that you, +yourself, find any mistakes--I think you said if it was called to his +attention---- + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I certainly will. + +Mr. DULLES. May I just add here--I hope that that will be looked over, +the record will be looked over fairly promptly, so that we can make any +corrections within a reasonable length of time. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; as soon as we receive it, Mr. Chairman, we will +do so. + +Mr. JENNER. May I say in that connection, Mr. McKenzie, if you could +have him dictate that tape covering his memorandum, we can perhaps +actually incorporate that in the record, which you will receive. + +Mr. McKENZIE. We cannot do it today, because we won't get to Dallas +until late this evening. And I am going to church tomorrow and teach +Sunday school and be with my children. + +Mr. OSWALD. And I with mine, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I will make arrangements the first of the week to have it +done. + +Mr. JENNER. Send it to Mr. Rankin. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I shall. + +If you receive from any source any further documentary information or +any type of information which might be considered as evidence by this +Commission, do you now ask the Commission's approval and permission to +deliver such documents or information, if any, to the FBI, so that the +information may be immediately forwarded to the Commission to assist in +preparing its final report? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. DULLES. Is that satisfactory to you, Mr. Jenner? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Likewise, do you authorize me to deliver any like +information or documents which I may receive, discover or otherwise +have in my possession to the same agencies for the same purpose? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly do. + +Mr. JENNER. Here, again, Mr. McKenzie, if anything is delivered, would +you have it delivered to Mr. Rankin, rather than to me? + +Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. + +Have you ever applied for relief, unemployment compensation, or any +other form of welfare aid? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And I refer there, sir, to both the Federal Government +aid programs and likewise any aid program of the State of Texas or the +State of Louisiana. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct--or any other State of the United States. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I believe that you have previously testified to this, but +I want to make it absolutely clear. + +Do you now believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was at any time an agent +of any agency of the United States Government, from the time that he +departed for Russia, until the day of his death on November 24, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. I do not believe that he was an agent of any government. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Prior to November 22, 1963, did you know of any +activities of Lee Harvey Oswald relative to the Fair Play for Cuba +Committee or his arrest in New Orleans, La.? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, what has been your position insofar as the +press is concerned, since the unfortunate and tragic happenings of +November 22, 1963? + +Mr. OSWALD. My position with any news media, whether it be the +newspapers, magazines, television, et cetera, has been that--no +comment, and the only comment I ever made to any of them, at a very +early date, was that I would abide by the decision of the Commission +which is now known as the Warren Committee. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Have you ever sought to elaborate or give any statement +to the press at any time? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Do you recall any statements made by Marina N. Oswald +expressing sympathy for President's family? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And if you will, state the source of your recollection +and where the statement was made, and if she has ever made any +statement to that effect to yourself. + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did make a statement directly to myself. To +the best of my recollection, this was first done on Monday, November +25, 1963, at the Inn of the Six Flags, at Arlington, Tex., as Marina +and myself observed the beginning of the funeral for the President of +the United States. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And was there anyone else present at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there were other people in the room. Whether or +not they overheard our conversation, I do not know, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. You observed that on television, I gather? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Were there any Secret Service agents there at that time? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Were they in the room with you and Marina Oswald? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And did they overhear any expressions of sympathy which +she might have said? + +Mr. OSWALD. It is possible that they did, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Have you ever testified in a lawsuit or given a +deposition before a court reporter prior to your appearance before this +Commission? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Now, you have testified that you have not given any +statements to the press other than the statement to the effect that you +would abide with and be satisfied with the report of this Commission. + +Since arriving in Washington, and since you have been sworn under oath +before the Commission, have you given any statement to the press, other +than saying goodnight, or good afternoon, or good morning? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe at one time I did say thank you. Other than that, +sir, I have not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Now, have you read an article here in the New York Times +of Saturday, February 22, 1964, on page 22 of the first section, +entitled, "Russian training of Oswald hinted"? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know Mr. Anthony Lewis? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. McKENZIE. All right, sir. + +Have you ever talked with Mr. Lewis? + +Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Now, you have testified this afternoon following our +lunch break that you visited Lee Oswald in the Dallas County Jail. Do +you recall that testimony--the testimony of just a few minutes ago? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Have you previously testified to that before the +Commission, to your recollection? + +Mr. OSWALD. To my recollection, I believe we at least touched on that +during our first session on February 20, 1963. + +Mr. McKENZIE. When you were in the jail--and I believe it is in +the sixth floor of the Dallas County Jail--I mean the Dallas City +Jail--talking with your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, did you ask him at +that time if he had committed the crime? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had. + +Mr. McKENZIE. You did ask him that question? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say? + +Mr. OSWALD. I put it to him as stated in my diary, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Identify the page, please. + +Mr. OSWALD. On page 12, "I do not recall everything he said. I did try +to point out to him that the evidence was overwhelming that he did kill +Police Officer Tippit and possibly the President. To this he replied +'do not form any opinion on the so-called evidence.'" + +Mr. JENNER. Is that all he said? He said nothing else? + +Mr. OSWALD. To that---- + +Mr. JENNER. In response to you? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. At no time when you interviewed him over the telephone +while you were in that--the sixth floor--did he affirmatively deny +either that he had shot Officer Tippit or that he shot the President? + +Mr. OSWALD. He did not admit to anything whatsoever. + +Mr. JENNER. Nor did he deny it affirmatively--other than the remark +that you have recorded in your memorandum? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. In other words, Mr. Oswald, when you were talking there +with your brother, in the city jail of Dallas, he did not deny that he +had killed Officer Tippit, nor did he deny that he had assassinated +President Kennedy? + +Mr. OSWALD. He did not admit to anything, sir. + +Mr. McKENZIE. And he didn't deny anything? + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Have you, or haven't you told this Commission that you +believed a denial? + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. McKenzie, I don't understand that question. + +Mr. McKENZIE. It says in this article that he told the Commission that +he believed the denial. + +Since there was no denial, there was nothing for you to believe. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Up to this moment he has never testified as to that, to my +recollection. + +Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. + +Again, based on the evidence that you have read or heard in newspaper +articles, whether it be evidence or not, but based on everything that +you have heard or read, you now believe that your brother, Lee Harvey +Oswald, did kill Mr. Tippit and assassinated President Kennedy, is that +correct? + +Mr. OSWALD. Purely on the circumstantial evidence that has been brought +to my attention or that I have read. + +Mr. McKENZIE. I believe that is all, Mr. Chairman. + +Mr. JENNER. May I ask one question? + +Mr. Oswald, until this afternoon, when you recalled orally here the +circumstances and the event of your discussion with your brother on the +sixth floor of the Dallas--is that Dallas County? + +Mr. McKENZIE. No; it is Dallas City Jail. + +Mr. JENNER. Dallas City Jail--had I had any conversation with you at +all on that subject? + +Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. + +Mr. McKENZIE. That is all, Mr. Chairman. + +Mr. DULLES. That will then conclude the testimony of Mr. Robert Oswald, +with the understanding that the Commission might later wish to recall +him if any facts are adduced that would make that desirable. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles--is he now released from his oath to the +Commission, subject to recall and being resworn? + +Mr. DULLES. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. That is correct. That is my understanding. + +In any event, I so agree, Mr. Chairman. + +Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir. + +I would like to state to the Commission one further thing, Mr. +Dulles, if I may. We very much appreciate, and by "we" I mean myself +as counsel, and Mr. Oswald as a witness, the manner in which the +Commission and its counsel have conducted the interrogation of Mr. +Oswald. We further appreciate the opportunity to be in Washington +and to be heard, and hope that in some manner that we may assist in +shedding some light that will assist this Commission in making its +final report, and that the true facts of this situation will be known +to the President of the United States to use at his discretion. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mr. McKenzie. + +Mr. JENNER. May I ask one more question? + +Up until this afternoon when I questioned you, possibly there might +have been a question this morning on the subject of any opinion which +you might have held dealing with whether your brother did or did not +participate in the shooting of Officer Tippit or the assassination of +President Kennedy, had I had any conversation with you on that subject? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe you had. + +Mr. JENNER. When was that? + +Mr. OSWALD. I believe this was on the first session, during the first +session on Wednesday, February 20, 1964. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it in this room? + +Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was. + +Mr. JENNER. That is all I meant. I had no separate--no conversation +with you on the subject other than as I might have put a question to +you in the presence of the Commission. + +Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. + +Mr. DULLES. And a part of the record. + +Mr. JENNER. And as part of the record; yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. We will adjourn. + +(Whereupon, at 3:40 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Thursday, February 27, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF JAMES HERBERT MARTIN + +The President's Commission met 9:25 a.m. on February 27, 1964, at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman +Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and +Allen W. Dulles, members. + +Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, +assistant counsel; Paul W. Leech, counsel to James Herbert Martin; +Charles Murray and Charles Rhyne, observers; and Dean Robert G. Storey, +special counsel to the attorney general of Texas. + + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. + +Let the record show that Mr. Martin, first that Commissioners Dulles +and Ford and I are present. + +Mr. Martin, the witness, is here with his lawyer; would you state your +name for the record, please? + +Mr. LEECH. Paul Leech. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Leech, I understand you are a partner of Mr. Thorne +who was here representing Mrs. Oswald. + +Mr. LEECH. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, I will just read an opening statement to you +that we make for the record and for the benefit of the witness each +time we convene. + +On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive +Order No. 11130 appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate and +report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late +President John F. Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of the man +charged with the assassination." + +On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137 +which authorizes the Commission, or any member of the Commission, or +any agent or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose, +to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive +evidence. + +On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing +each member of the Commission and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, +to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive +evidence. + +On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing +each member of the Commission and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, +to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive +evidence concerning any matter under investigation by the Commission. + +The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. James +Herbert Martin who has acted as the business manager of Mrs. Marina +Oswald, the widow of Lee Harvey Oswald, who, prior to his death, was +charged with the assassination of President Kennedy. In view of Mr. +Martin's close association with Mrs. Oswald it is the intention of this +Commission to ask Mr. Martin questions concerning this association and +any and all matters related to the assassination, and to the subsequent +killing of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. Martin has been furnished with a copy of this statement and a copy +of the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony or +the production of evidence. Mr. Martin has also been furnished with a +copy of Executive Order No. 11130 and Congressional Resolution S.J. +Res. 137 which set forth the general scope of the Commission's inquiry +and its authority for the examining of witnesses and the receiving of +evidence. + +I should also like to read into the record at this time a copy of a +letter dated February 22, 1964, to Mr. Martin from Mr. J. Lee Rankin, +General Counsel of the Commission, which reads as follows: + +"Dear Mr. Martin: + +"Confirming discussions between the staff of this Commission and John +M. Thorne, Esquire, your counsel, we hereby request that you appear +before this Commission at 9:00 a.m., on February 27, 1964, at Room 400, +200 Maryland Avenue, NE., Washington, D.C., for the purpose of giving +sworn testimony concerning your association with Mrs. Marina Oswald and +your knowledge of the facts relating to the assassination of President +Kennedy and the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +"You are hereby requested to produce before this Commission at +that time any and all books, records, papers, notes, and documents +pertaining to your association with Marina Oswald and your knowledge +of the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and +the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald including, but not limited +to, those books, records, papers, notes, and documents pertaining to +(1) your business dealings with Marina Oswald, (2) your activities +as Marina Oswald's business representative, (3) Marina Oswald's +business dealings with others, (4) your dealings with Marina Oswald in +connection with the preparation of any testimony, interviews, public +appearances, story, article, or other narrative concerning her personal +history or the assassination of President Kennedy and the killing +of Lee Harvey Oswald, and (5) your dealings with Marina Oswald in +connection with her appearance before this Commission. + +"The Commission is authorized to reimburse you for your expenses +in connection with your appearance before the Commission, and the +necessary details will be arranged when you are here. + +"Attached herewith are copies of Executive Order No. 11130, dated +November 29, 1963, S.J. Res. 137--88th Cong., 1st Session, and the +rules of this Commission in connection with hearings conducted for the +purpose of taking of testimony or the production of evidence." + +I assume, gentlemen, you did receive a copy of that letter? + +Mr. LEECH. Yes, we did. + +THE CHAIRMAN. I will not be able to be here at all times today because +we have, we are hearing arguments in the Court at 10 o'clock and I must +leave to be there, but Mr. Dulles anticipates being here all day so in +my absence he will conduct hearings. + +Congressman Ford has some unfinished business at the Congress as I have +at the Court so he probably will not be here all through the day. + +Mr. Martin, will you please rise and be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear in this proceeding before the Commission to tell +the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. MARTIN. I do. + +Mr. LEECH. Your Honor, who are these other gentlemen here. I haven't +been introduced to them. + +The CHAIRMAN. This is Mr. Charles Rhyne, who represents the American +Bar Association. + +Mr. LEECH. Former president of the American Bar Association? + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes, and Mr. Murray who is also in the Public Defender's +office of the District of Columbia. + +Mr. RANKIN. He represents Mr. Walter Craig, too. + +The CHAIRMAN. He and Mr. Rhyne represent Mr. Walter Craig. + +Mr. LEECH. Who is that? + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Craig is the President of the Bar Association and was +asked to act in order to protect or advise the Commission as to any +interests of Lee H. Oswald because of--you probably saw the notice in +the paper and so forth. + +Mr. LEECH. You represent the man from Arizona? + +Mr. RHYNE. Walter E. Craig, President of the American Bar Association. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Storey is the representative of the Attorney General of +Texas. + +Mr. LEECH. He is Dean of the Southern Methodist Law School. + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +The CHAIRMAN. Of course, this is Professor Redlich of our staff. And +this is the reporter. + +All right, Mr. Rankin will conduct the examination. + +Will you proceed, Mr. Rankin? + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Leech, does the reporter have your full name? + +Mr. LEECH. Yes, sir; he does. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Martin, will you tell us your name, please? + +Mr. MARTIN. James Herbert Martin. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where do you live? + +Mr. MARTIN. Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. RANKIN. How long have you lived there? + +Mr. MARTIN. Since 1956. + +Mr. RANKIN. What is your occupation? + +Mr. MARTIN. Hotel executive. + +Mr. RANKIN. Are you now connected with the Six Flags Motel? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you at one time? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And during what period? + +Mr. MARTIN. From May of 1962 until January 1, 1964. + +Mr. RANKIN. What was your position with that institution? + +Mr. MARTIN. Resident manager. + +Mr. RANKIN. While you were at the Six Flags Inn, did you become +acquainted with Marina Oswald? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. About when was the first time that you met her? + +Mr. MARTIN. I guess it was November 24. + +Mr. RANKIN. Of what year? + +Mr. MARTIN. 1963. + +Mr. RANKIN. And will you tell us how that acquaintance started? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, I was called by the Tarrant County sheriff on Sunday. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who was that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Lew Evans. + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mr. MARTIN. About 11 o'clock in the morning, and they wanted a room +where they could question the Oswald family. I told them they could +have it, and about four o'clock, I guess, four or four-thirty, I don't +know the exact time they came in with the whole family, and we gave +them several rooms to accommodate the family. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you introduced to Marina Oswald at that time? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't believe I was ever really introduced to her. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did you come to know her then? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, just through association. + +Mr. RANKIN. I see. Did you know the county sheriff before that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Vaguely, not to any great extent. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any particular reason why he chose your +establishment? + +Mr. MARTIN. Because of the central location between Dallas and Fort +Worth and the isolation of it. + +Mr. RANKIN. At that time who came to stay with you at the Six Flags +Inn, Marina and some of her family? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, Marina and the two children and Robert and Marguerite +Oswald. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did they have several suites there? + +Mr. MARTIN. They had one room, well, one suite, room 423 and 424 and +then we gave them two other rooms for the Secret Service. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone make arrangements with you besides the county +sheriff about how this would be handled? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Secret Service. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who, for the Secret Service? + +Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, Charles Kunkel, and Howard--I can't remember his +first name. + +Mr. RANKIN. Secret Service man? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where was this arrangement made? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, down in the room in the suite. + +Mr. RANKIN. There at the Six Flags Inn? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And the three of you were there together, were you? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, there were also Arlington police officers and several +other Secret Service men. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who participated in the conversation? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't know who else was in the conversation. It was +primarily between Kunkel and Howard and myself. + +Mr. RANKIN. What was said in regard to this arrangement at that time? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, they said that they would need these rooms to +accommodate the family and they had no idea how long they would need it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about the price and who would make +payment? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. They said that the Government would take care of the +room rate on it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you have to submit this matter to any of your superiors +or did you make the decision at that time? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, I made the decision. + +Mr. RANKIN. Had you had any prior dealings with the Secret Service +people before that? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. How long did Marguerite Oswald stay there? + +Mr. MARTIN. I believe she left on Friday. + +Mr. RANKIN. What day? + +Mr. MARTIN. Or maybe Thursday. Would be the 28th or 29th, I am not +certain as to the exact date. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any incidents where Marguerite Oswald sought +to leave prior to the Thursday or Friday that she left? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't recall anything like that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever assisted the local police officers in any +other way at your Six Flags Inn before that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. In a general way what was the nature of that assistance. + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course, I can't recall any specific instances. I +know we cooperate with the law enforcement officers in anything they +have to ask us, and we cooperate with them, giving them information. I +don't know of any particular incidents other than---- + +Mr. RANKIN. Would you describe briefly just where these rooms were +in your Inn and where the Secret Service were compared with Marina +Oswald's rooms? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, Marina Oswald was in Rooms 423 and 424, which were +connecting rooms, and the rooms faced away from the entrance to the +motel. And then the Secret Service had 422 and 421 also. They were +rooms next door to it, but not connecting. + +Mr. RANKIN. After Marina first came there did the Secret Service have +someone on duty while she was at the Six Flags? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. All the time? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall who that was? + +Mr. MARTIN. Let's see--well, I remember his first name now, Mike +Howard, and Charles Kunkel, Lee Gopadze was there part of the time. +They seemed to change quite frequently. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did they have someone there 24 hours of the day? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. During this early period did you ever talk to Marina? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, except to say hello. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether she talked English much at that time? + +Mr. MARTIN. From all appearances, she didn't. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone visit you while she was there at the Six Flags +during this early period that you recall? + +Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge other than the FBI. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you invite Marina and her family to come to your home +for Thanksgiving? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us how that happened? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, it just happened. I don't know, I think I asked +Robert if he would like to come out for dinner, Thanksgiving dinner. +They weren't going to have a very happy Thanksgiving, and living in +those rooms was pretty cramped. + +Mr. RANKIN. When was this that you asked Robert? + +Mr. MARTIN. I believe on Wednesday. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you include Robert and his wife as well as Marina and +her family in the invitation? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, Robert's wife wasn't there, but I included Robert. He +came out to the house also. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina then come to your house for Thanksgiving? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who all came at that time? + +Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, there were Marina and June Lee, and Robert, +Charlie Kunkel, and one Arlington police officer. I don't recall his +name. + +Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day did they come? + +Mr. MARTIN. I believe it was 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you invite Marguerite Oswald to Thanksgiving dinner at +that time, too? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to her about it? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. As I recall I just asked, I believe I just asked Robert +if they would like to come, they were welcome if they would like to +come. + +Mr. RANKIN. You mean by that that you included Marguerite Oswald in +your invitation? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't think I named her. I don't know if she had left by +then. + +Mr. RANKIN. You didn't deliberately exclude her from the invitation? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Then did you at some time discuss with Marina the +possibility of her staying at your home rather than at the Six Flags +Inn? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, I discussed it with Secret Service first. + +Mr. RANKIN. When was that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Thursday or Friday. + +Mr. RANKIN. Before this Thanksgiving dinner or afterwards? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall. I know the Secret Service made a statement +that they were quite concerned as to where Marina would go after she +left the Inn. They had no place to put her and they had no idea where +she was going to go. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall when they made that statement? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, it was Wednesday or Thursday. + +Mr. RANKIN. At that time did you say anything about that? + +Mr. MARTIN. I told them that if they couldn't find any place for her +that I would be glad to take them into my home. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about what compensation you would receive +for that? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. There was no compensation considered. + +Mr. RANKIN. You didn't suggest any and they didn't, is that right? + +Mr. MARTIN. That is correct. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss that idea with Marina at all? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. They, the Secret Service told Robert about it, and---- + +Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Because he told me they had. And then Robert thanked me and +said that it would work out all right. + +Mr. RANKIN. Before you made that suggestion had you had any discussions +about selling any rights to Marina's stories or anything of that +character? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. With any media? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to make this offer? + +Mr. MARTIN. I felt sorry for her. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you limit the offer to Marina and her children? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was there any talk at that time about Robert living at your +home, too? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Anything about Marguerite living there? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss this proposal with your wife before you +made it? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe for the Commission briefly your home, +how the layout of it was? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, it is a three-bedroom house, with a living room, +dining room, den and kitchen, two baths. + +Mr. RANKIN. All of it on the same floor? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us an idea of where the bedrooms were from +the rest of the house? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, as you come in the front door you go through one end +of the living room, and then into a hallway, and the bedrooms are along +the hall. + +Mr. RANKIN. And is yours and Mrs. Martin's bedroom at the end of the +hall? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Does it have a private bath associated with that suite? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And all of the rooms of the house are on one floor, is that +right? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And then where was Marina's bedroom from yours? + +Mr. MARTIN. The next room. + +Mr. RANKIN. And where was the bath that she used? + +Mr. MARTIN. Right across the hall from it. + +Mr. RANKIN. And then after Marina's room right next to hers? + +Mr. MARTIN. Is a children's bedroom. + +Mr. RANKIN. That was the closest one to the living room, is that right? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. About how large was your bedroom? + +Mr. MARTIN. I think it is about 14 by, maybe 14 by 14, 16. + +Mr. RANKIN. How large was Marina's room? + +Mr. MARTIN. About 11 by 13. + +Mr. RANKIN. And the children's room? + +Mr. MARTIN. About the same size. + +Mr. RANKIN. What children do you have? + +Mr. MARTIN. I have a 14-year-old boy and a 12-year-old boy and a +6-year-old girl. + +Mr. RANKIN. And they are all living at home? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And they have been throughout this period, have they? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Had you discussed the assassination with Marina at all +prior to the time she came to live with you? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Had you discussed any financial arrangements with her or +the idea that you should manage her affairs before she came to live +with you? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did the donations for Marina and her children start to +come in, do you recall the date? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was it before she came to live with you? + +Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge, I didn't--I think it started after she +came into the house. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rankin, if you will excuse me now, gentlemen, I am +going to retire to my Court work and Mr. Dulles, will you conduct the +hearing? If you are still in session I will be here this afternoon to +see you, if not, gentlemen, I am very glad to have seen you, both of +you. Give Mr. Thorne my regards, please. + +(At this point, the Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.) + +Mr. DULLES. Will you proceed, please. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did the idea of your being Marina's business manager +first come up. + +Mr. MARTIN. It was after the first of December. She had been there +about 3 or 4 days, I guess. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is 1963? + +Mr. MARTIN. 1963. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us how it came up? + +Mr. MARTIN. One of the Secret Service agents suggested that I get an +attorney for Marina. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who was that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Lee Gopadze. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where did this conversation occur? + +Mr. MARTIN. In the den. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who was there? + +Mr. MARTIN. I think Marina was there. + +Mr. RANKIN. Anyone else? + +Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge. + +Mr. RANKIN. About what time of the day, do you recall? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Gopadze made this suggestion, he made it to you, did he? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say that in English? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you know whether Marina understood it? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, he had discussed it with her. + +Mr. RANKIN. How do you know? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, he was talking about it to her about something in +Russian. + +Mr. RANKIN. And then he turned to you, did he? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about who you should get as a lawyer +for her? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, I told him I would be happy to get one for her. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you do that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. John Thorne. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to select John Thorne? + +Mr. MARTIN. I had known him from association at the Inn. + +Mr. RANKIN. Had he ever acted as your attorney? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. What was the nature of your acquaintance with him? + +Mr. MARTIN. Just a passing acquaintance. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss with Marina the qualifications of this +attorney? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about it to Mr. Gopadze? + +Mr. MARTIN. I, like I probably mentioned, John had handled some movie +work and he would probably know something about the area in which we +were talking. + +Mr. RANKIN. After you had made the suggestion of Mr. Thorne as a lawyer +did you do anything about it? + +Mr. MARTIN. I called Mr. Thorne. + +Mr. RANKIN. On the telephone? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And then what happened? + +Mr. MARTIN. He came over, I believe, the next day and talked to Marina +and Lee Gopadze and myself. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did he talk to Marina? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, through Lee Gopadze. + +Mr. RANKIN. As an interpreter? + +Mr. MARTIN. As an interpreter. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Gopadze is fluent in both Russian and English? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Could you tell what Mr. Gopadze said to Marina? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the nature of this retainer with Mr. Thorne +at that time? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't understand the question. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss what he would be doing if he was employed +as her lawyer? + +Mr. MARTIN. Handling all her legal work. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell him that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And did you say anything about what the legal work would +involve, the kind of work it would be? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe so at the time. I may have mentioned +something about her story or something like that. I don't recall the +conversation. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about the donations at that time? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss what he would be paid by way of +compensation? + +Mr. MARTIN. Not at that time. It was later. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said by you or Mr. Thorne about his +qualifications to act as her attorney? + +Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were formal arrangements made about the employment of Mr. +Thorne as counsel for Marina? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. When was that done? + +Mr. MARTIN. I believe that was December 6. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything else that was said or done at this +conversation when Mr. Thorne came over and talked to Marina through the +interpreter and you were present? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was there a formal contract executed between Marina and Mr. +Thorne at some time? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. You think that was December 6 to your recollection. + +Mr. MARTIN. Either the 5th or the 6th. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, before that contract was executed did you discuss it +with Mr. Thorne? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was Marina present when you did? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe so. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where did this discussion occur? + +Mr. MARTIN. I believe it was at the Inn. + +Mr. RANKIN. Your office? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, in the coffee shoppe. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who else was present. + +Mr. MARTIN. No one. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you then go over the terms of the contract with him? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I think I left that up to him. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you then the manager of Marina's affairs? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who were you acting for in regard to that arrangement? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, acting for Marina although I had no--I had no +contract to that effect. + +Mr. RANKIN. You were still acting under this suggestion by Mr. Gopadze +that some counsel be gotten for her? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you did go over the terms of this contract at that +time, did you? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any suggestions for changes? + +Mr. MARTIN. That we delete it, on my contract, we deleted any gifts or +contributions. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is on the draft of the contract for you to act as +manager? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And when did that idea of your acting as manager come up? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, I believe it was the same day that John Thorne came +out to talk to Marina and to Gopadze. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who brought it up? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you suggest that you act as manager? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe I suggested it. We were discussing the need +for a manager, and I don't know who brought it up as far as my being +the one. + +Mr. RANKIN. At that time was there any discussion about what +compensation you would have? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you were talking to Mr. Thorne in the coffee shoppe +was there a discussion about how much compensation he would receive for +acting as attorney? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. What was said about that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, just that it would be 10 percent. + +Mr. RANKIN. Had you ever discussed that before with him? + +Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall. + +(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. DULLES. Senator, we welcome you. + +Senator COOPER. Thank you. + +Mr. DULLES. Would you proceed? Would you just resume for a moment where +we are in the proceedings? + +Mr. RANKIN. We are discussing the contract between Mr. Martin and +Marina and also how Mr. Thorne became counsel under the contracts that +were made. + +Senator COOPER. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. This 10-percent figure for John Thorne and the contract +with regard to his appointment then was his suggestion so far as you +know? + +Mr. MARTIN. As far as I know. I think we had discussed it. + +Mr. RANKIN. You had discussed it? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't know exactly how we came to these figures as far as +that is concerned. + +Mr. RANKIN. But you think you had discussed it before the meeting at +the coffee shoppe that you described? + +Mr. MARTIN. Probably so. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you suggest the amount? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. You don't recall whether you did or he did? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk that over with Marina? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who was present at that time? + +Mr. MARTIN. I believe Lee Gopadze. + +Mr. RANKIN. Anyone else? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, there were several times we discussed it with Marina. +One time Robert was there. He read the contracts. Let's see, he usually +came in on Sunday so he read the contracts more at length. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did Robert come in before or after your conversation in the +coffee shoppe that you referred to? + +Mr. MARTIN. I believe after. + +Mr. RANKIN. After you had the conversation in the coffee shoppe with +Mr. Thorne, did you make any changes in the draft of the contract. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. LEECH. Excuse me, what contract are you talking about? + +Mr. RANKIN. Thorne contract. + +Were you referring to the Thorne contract? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. What changes did you make at that time? + +Mr. MARTIN. We deleted gifts, contributions. He used a standard +contractual form, and in that contractual form it includes gifts and +contributions, and we deleted those. + +Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit No. 279 and ask you if that is a +photostat copy of the contract you have been referring to? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And it has stricken out the words that you have just +described with regard to donations and gifts? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. It does give him an interest in collections, trust funds +and bequests, according to the language of this Exhibit No. 279. + +Do you know what was meant by that? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. That was in the standard contract that this was drawn +from. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever discuss this contract, Exhibit No. 279, with +Marina Oswald? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, with Mr. Thorne and Robert Oswald present. + +Mr. RANKIN. When was that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Between the 1st and the 6th of December 1963. I can't +recall the dates. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember where you were when you had that discussion? + +Mr. MARTIN. At the house, my home. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to Marina about it? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall any conversation at all. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about the 10 percent at that time? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, she knew it was 10 percent. + +Mr. RANKIN. How do you know she knew that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, we explained it to her. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who explained it? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't know whether I did or whether John Thorne did or +Robert. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did she understand English enough to understand what you +were talking about? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Because of her reaction to it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did she react about the 10 percent? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I mean there was no reaction as far as her, a definite +reaction but I could tell she understood it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what you observed about her that caused you +to think that she understood it? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't know. I think it was explained to her as 10 +cents of a dollar. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was anything---- + +Mr. MARTIN. But she said she understood percents. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did she say that? + +Mr. MARTIN. That way. "I understand percents" or something of that type. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was there any discussion with Marina about the effect of +this contract on donations and contributions from the public? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. We said that that would not be included in that 10 +percent. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to Marina about whether this was a +good contract for her? + +Mr. MARTIN. I probably did. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what you said? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. You have no recollection about that? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. Actually we left most of it up to Robert. + +Mr. RANKIN. So whatever explanation was made to Marina was really made +by Robert, is that right? + +Mr. LEECH. Excuse me for just a minute. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Back on the record. + +Mr. LEECH. Mr. Martin's contract and Robert had a contract with her, +too, and Mr. Thorne's contract were left with her. They were not signed +that day. + +Mr. RANKIN. You tell us what you know about that, Mr. Martin. + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, Robert wanted to read over the contracts and think +them over, and I believe he took copies of them. Now, I am not sure, I +am not certain, about that. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did Robert get involved here, of getting a share? + +Mr. MARTIN. From the beginning. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were you present when that matter came up? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. That was Marina's request that he participate. + +Mr. RANKIN. When was that request made? + +Mr. MARTIN. Prior to the signing of the contracts, probably December +4--3d or 4th. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who was present at that time? + +Mr. MARTIN. I believe John Thorne and Robert, Marina and myself. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did Marina say about that at that time? + +Mr. MARTIN. She wanted Robert to have some of the money. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did Robert say about that? + +Mr. MARTIN. As I recall he didn't say much of anything. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything to indicate that he thought that was a +good idea, a bad idea? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I think he said, "Thank you," that is about it. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina say anything about how much she wanted Robert to +get? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did she say about that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Ten percent. + +Mr. RANKIN. She just said 10 percent, is that all? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina make any explanation of how she decided that +Robert should get a share, too? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, other than she wanted to give Robert something. + +Representative FORD. May I ask a question? + +Mr. RANKIN. Surely. + +Representative FORD. Was there any discussion at any time, Mr. Martin, +as to whether Marguerite should have any benefits from it? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina discuss with you at that time what Robert was to +do for his 10 percent? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any discussion about what you were to do for +your share? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, to sell her story. + +Mr. RANKIN. And what would Mr. Thorne do for his 10 percent? + +Mr. MARTIN. Handle all the legal work involved. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever hear any discussion about what Robert was to +do for his percentage? + +Mr. MARTIN. We said that--let's see--we would discuss with him on +various occasions any of these contracts, but that he was--he would +take over the handling of Marina's affairs in case of my disability. + +Mr. LEECH. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything more said than you have related about +what Robert would do for his share? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I think I probably remarked to him that there would +probably be plenty for him to do. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was there any dispute between any of you or with Marina at +this time about the percentages? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. The only thing that I recall was the terms of the +contract, of my contract. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was something said about that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Was 10 years. + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mr. MARTIN. And Marina thought that was too long. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did she say about that? + +Mr. MARTIN. She said she thought 10 years was too long. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say? + +Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, she wanted a 1 year contract and I told her that +actually 1 year, there is no telling how this story would develop or +anything, and that 1 year might interfere with the sale of the story. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did she say to that? + +Mr. MARTIN. That they agreed to it. + +Mr. RANKIN. She agreed then to the 10 years? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was any interpreter present at that time? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. So whatever Marina understood about was from her +understanding of English and communication with you and Robert and Mr. +Thorne? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, Lee Gopadze had discussed it prior to that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was that in your presence? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. He just discussed it, the general terms, I assume. + +Mr. RANKIN. But you don't know. + +Mr. MARTIN. Of course. I couldn't understand what he was saying. We +left the contracts with her for several days. + +Mr. RANKIN. But you don't know what was done with them? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Because you weren't present. + +Do you know whether she understood English enough to read those +contracts at that time? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. She couldn't have read the contracts at that time. +But she said she understood it sufficiently, and that she would trust +Robert's judgment on it. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did she say that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Just before--I guess the same day she signed it. + +Mr. RANKIN. I will ask you to look at Exhibit No. 279 and tell us +whether you recognize the signatures on that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Whose signatures are they? + +Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Marina N. Oswald and James H. Martin. + +Mr. RANKIN. In the parts that are stricken out---- + +Mr. MARTIN. John M. Thorne. + +Mr. RANKIN. On Exhibit No. 279 were those stricken out before the +discussion of the contract? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was that done when you were there? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe the signing? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. LEECH. They were not signed the date it says they were signed. + +Mr. MARTIN. On the 5th. + +Mr. LEECH. The date it says they were signed that is the date they were +drawn up but they were all signed the same time, weren't they, Mr. +Martin? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what the facts are in that regard, Mr. +Martin? + +Mr. MARTIN. The contracts were drawn--let's see--the contracts were +drawn and Robert wanted to go over them, so we held it in abeyance. I +think he was there on a Sunday and he came back on a Tuesday, I am not +sure about the days, and signed the contracts. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the signature of Marina Oswald? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us whether or not Exhibit No. 279 bears her +signature? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it does. + +Mr. RANKIN. It appears to be witnessed by you, is that your signature? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. And the acceptance at the bottom of Exhibit No. 279, do you +know whose signature that is? + +Mr. MARTIN. John Thorne's. + +Mr. RANKIN. And you say that the exhibit was, the contract, Exhibit No. +279 was executed on the 6th rather than the 5th day of December. + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, I can't recall the dates on it. + +Mr. LEECH. Excuse me for just a minute. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. LEECH. Counsel, for what it is worth, Robert's was executed at the +same time as the other ones. I believe his is dated the 9th, isn't it? +So it would have been the 9th or afterwards. They were all executed at +the same time. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Martin, do you know that? + +Mr. MARTIN. I know they were all executed the same time. + +Mr. RANKIN. Whether or not it was the 9th or the 6th you don't recall +at this time? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I am fairly certain it was not the 6th. + +Mr. RANKIN. Are you certain what date it was? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. What is your best recollection in that regard? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was several days after the contracts were drawn +that they were executed, and I believe the contracts were drawn, and +the date that they were drawn was entered on the contract. + +Mr. RANKIN. You think that might have been December 5 that they were +drawn then? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, that is already in evidence. + +Mr. DULLES. It has already been admitted. + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rankin, we would like to have a short adjournment at +10:30. The members of the Commission would like to speak with you. + +(Short recess.) + +Mr. DULLES. The Commission will resume. Mr. Rankin, will you please +continue with the examination? + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Martin, I have been asking you about some of your +contractual and financial arrangements with Marina Oswald and also Mr. +Thorne's and Robert Oswald's. If you and your counsel won't object +I would like to depart from that because I would like to have this +information developed when some of the members of the Commission are +here who might not be at other times during your examination. + +Mr. MARTIN. One thing Mr. Leech brought to my attention was that he +thought maybe you might be under the impression that these contracts +were all drawn on the same date, December 5. They weren't drawn on the +same date. I think it was the 5th, 6th and 7th, or the 5th, 6th, and +9th. Robert's was drawn on the 9th, mine was drawn the 6th, and Mr. +Thorne's was drawn the 5th. + +Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. + +I want to ask you about a particular incident that was referred to in +the Houston Post, an article in the paper and the source was given as +you and that is in regard to Mr. Nixon, Richard Nixon, former Vice +President of the United States. + +Did Marina ever say anything to you about Lee Oswald planning any +violent action or assassination of Richard M. Nixon? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn about that? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember the date. It was sometime in January, and +she mentioned it, said that he had come home one night and said, one +evening, and said that he had waited for Nixon to shoot him. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where was this? + +Mr. MARTIN. In Dallas. + +Mr. RANKIN. What time was it that he came home that night? + +Mr. MARTIN. I didn't question her too much about the time. I assumed +that it was after work. + +Mr. RANKIN. At about what time of the day was it? + +Mr. MARTIN. Five or six o'clock. She said they were living on Neely +Street, and he came home that night, and told her about it. So the +next morning he got up, Nixon had not come into town, so he said that +he would be in the next day, and so he got up the next morning and got +dressed with a suit, I believe she said, and she locked him in the +bathroom and kept him there all day, they said. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did she say how she locked him in the bathroom? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask her how she could do that, whether there was a +lock on the inside of the bathroom or outside? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, I thought it was a little--I thought the story was a +little far-fetched myself. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to her about it? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, I said, "Don't go around telling people something +like that." + +Mr. RANKIN. Did she say anything about whether it was true or not? + +Mr. MARTIN. She said it was true. + +Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Was this brought up in connection with anything in +particular or just come out of the blue, blurted out? + +Mr. MARTIN. It just came out of the blue. + +Mr. DULLES. There was no prior conversation that led up to this or any +background to it? + +Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall. It was just a statement that she made. I +think she was talking about Oswald---- + +Representative FORD. Was she prone to come out with these kinds of +comments or was this an unusual circumstance? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. She at times referred to some particular incident +in Russia or various things like that. And they would be completely +unattached to anything that we had been talking about. + +Mr. RANKIN. What more did you say to her about this incident when she +brought it up? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, the only time I recall Nixon being in Dallas was in +November. Now, she was not living with Oswald in November, and---- + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that to her? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I just let the thing go. + +Mr. RANKIN. You didn't even ask her how she locked him in the bathroom? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I thought about it, because I know the only bathroom +doors I have seen lock from the inside and they swing in. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask her what he did after he was locked in the +bathroom? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did she say about that? + +Mr. MARTIN. She said he didn't do anything. When she let him out that +night, and I suppose he would be pretty mad at her, and she said no, he +wasn't. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did she say she kept him in the bathroom all day? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Was anybody else present at the time of this +statement by her to you? + +Mr. MARTIN. My wife. + +Representative FORD. Did your wife make any inquiry? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. We thought it was some kind of a story. + +Mr. RANKIN. You mean you thought it was an untrue story? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and why, I don't know. It didn't sound logical. + +Mr. RANKIN. Were there other conversations with Marina that you had +where you thought she was telling you things that were untrue? + +Mr. MARTIN. She would relate stories about Russia that I would listen +to but they didn't sound right. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, they mostly dealt with boy friends. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did she say in that regard? + +Mr. MARTIN. Oh, she would talk about some individual boy friends, +usually a non-Russian, someone from Rumania or Germany or from some +other country. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did she say? + +Mr. LEECH. Is this going to be made public? + +Mr. RANKIN. This might be, yes. + +Mr. MARTIN. Oh, I don't know about specific incidents. She would remark +about she knew--I am trying to think of a specific--one was, let's see, +she left Leningrad and went to Minsk because of an association with a +married man there. + +Representative FORD. In Leningrad? + +Mr. MARTIN. It was either she left Leningrad to go to Minsk or vice +versa. + +Representative FORD. But she left one or the other to go to the other +because of an association with a married man? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where was the association, in Leningrad or in Minsk? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was in the city that she left. + +Mr. RANKIN. She was getting away from that association, was she? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. By going to the other city? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any other conversation when she told you +something that you don't believe? + +Mr. MARTIN. Oh, she remarked about people that she knew in Russia that +had, we will say, lovers---- + +Mr. DULLES. Did she tell anything about a letter that she wrote to a +boy friend in Minsk? + +Mr. MARTIN. After she was here in New Orleans? + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. What did she say about that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, she said she wrote the letter, and I believe +what it was she told the boy that she wasn't--she wanted to come back +to Russia, to him, she loved him, and the letter was returned, I +believe, for lack of postage, and Oswald got hold of the letter, and he +asked her about it, and I think he asked her either to read it or he +would read it. I believe she read it to him. This caused quite a bit of +difficulty. Now, that is when she was in New Orleans. + +Mr. RANKIN. When she was telling you about these people that had lovers +in Russia, you didn't believe these stories? Is that what you are +saying? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course, I know nothing about Russian life. + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mr. MARTIN. So I more or less took it with a grain of salt. I didn't +put any credibility to it or any doubt to it. It was just something +that was said and I didn't either accept it or reject it. + +Mr. RANKIN. How did she happen to tell you about going to Minsk to get +away from a married man in Leningrad? + +Tell us how that came up. + +Mr. MARTIN. I think she was just talking about boy friends, I guess. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you she had quite a few boy friends? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was that in Russia that she had the boy friends? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. How many did she tell you about? + +Mr. MARTIN. Oh, boy. Well, she didn't mention any names as such, and +I don't know whether different stories got confused to being two +different people or--I would say 10 or 12. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did she include Lee Oswald among those? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, you mean as a boy friend? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you anything about her relations with these +boy friends? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. You say you didn't believe these stories? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, I didn't have any reason to disbelieve or to believe +them. They were just conversation. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, on the Nixon matter, when that came to your attention, +did you tell anyone else about it? + +Mr. MARTIN. I discussed it with my wife, and with John Thorne. + +Mr. DULLES. Excuse me just a moment. + +Mr. Martin, this is Congressman Boggs, a member of the Commission, and +this is Mr. Leech, counsel for Mr. Martin. + +Mr. LEECH. I know Mr. Boggs, I met him in New Orleans years ago. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us about the conversation when you related +this to someone else? + +Mr. MARTIN. It was on the telephone, and I was quite shocked at first +about it and then thinking it over, it didn't sound logical. + +Mr. RANKIN. You believed it at first? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I guess I didn't see any reason for it not to be true. +But then I didn't see any reason for it to be a lie, either, and I +supposed it was possible. + +Mr. RANKIN. When did you tell Mr. Thorne about it with reference to +when Marina told you? + +Mr. MARTIN. The same day. I don't recall the date at all. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to Mr. Thorne about it? + +Mr. MARTIN. I just related the incident, what she had told me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him about telling the Commission +about it? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about telling the Commission about it? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't believe so. + +Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else said in this telephone conversation +with Mr. Thorne except relating what Marina had said? + +Mr. MARTIN. I remarked what a big bombshell that would be as far as +publicity was concerned if the newspapers ever got hold of something +like that. + +Mr. RANKIN. That it would be helpful in regard to Marina's story, did +you say that? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, I did think it would be harmful. + +Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that to him? + +Mr. MARTIN. I believe so. + +Mr. DULLES. Why would it be harmful? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, this purportedly took place after the Walker +incident, and she had made a statement that if Oswald repeated anything +of a similar nature as the Walker incident she would turn him over to +the police, and this was a repeat or similar, he actually didn't shoot +at him but threatened to, and she did not report it to the police. + +Mr. DULLES. I see. + +The Walker incident took place on April 10, 1963, according to our +records. + +Senator COOPER. I would like you if you can to repeat everything that +Mrs. Oswald told you about the Nixon incident. What did Lee say to her? + +Mr. MARTIN. This has been a very confusing 2 months---- + +Senator COOPER. I know that. + +Mr. MARTIN. To me. + +Senator COOPER. Do the best you can. Take your time and tell us about +it. + +Mr. MARTIN. I couldn't recall it verbatim, but she said he came in one +evening, early in the evening, and said that he had tried to shoot +Nixon but that he had not come into town that night as he was supposed +to have, or that day, but that he would be in the next day, and he +would take care of it then. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Senator COOPER. I think you said that she did at least partly identify +the time by saying at the time they were living on Neely Street. + +Mr. MARTIN. Neely Street. + +Mr. DULLES. May I just add there our records indicate they were living +on Neely Street on March 2, between March 2, 1963, and April 24, 1963. + +Senator COOPER. Did Mrs. Oswald tell you anything that he said about +the way or means he intended to kill him or at what place? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall what weapon she mentioned at the time? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't know if I recall that she said shoot him or kill +him. + +Representative FORD. Could she speak English well enough to +differentiate between shoot and kill? + +Mr. MARTIN. At the time? + +Representative FORD. Yes. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Representative FORD. She could distinguish English that well? + +Mr. REDLICH. Did she mention a pistol or rifle? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did she mention whether he was employed at the time or +unemployed at the time? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe so. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask her how it was possible for her to keep him in +a bathroom for one whole day? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you ask her why Lee Harvey Oswald wanted to kill Nixon, +any motive? + +Mr. MARTIN. I think I asked, "Well, why would he want to do that?" And +she shrugged her shoulders. + +Senator COOPER. I would like to follow up on that. In this conversation +with her, did he give any reason to Marina Oswald why he wanted to kill +Nixon? + +Mr. MARTIN. Evidently not. She didn't answer. She didn't answer me when +I asked. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, you have said in your opinion the Nixon +incident was after the Walker incident. + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, that is what she said. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did she relate it to the General Walker incident in any +way when she discussed the Nixon incident with you? + +Mr. MARTIN. She just said it was after General Walker. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did she relate to you any conversation that she may have +had with Lee Harvey Oswald relating the Nixon incident to the Walker +incident? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did she refer to any promise that he may have made at the +time of the Walker incident that may have related to the Nixon incident? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I remember her saying after the Walker incident she +told him that if he ever did anything of that nature again that she +would report him to the police. + +Mr. DULLES. How did you know the Nixon incident was after or supposed +to be after the Walker incident? Did she say that? + +Mr. MARTIN. She said it was. + +Mr. DULLES. She said that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes; I asked when it happened and she said after Walker. + +Mr. REDLICH. When she told you that she had threatened Lee Oswald +with going to the police if there were another incident, did you ever +ask her why she had not done so in light of the Nixon incident which +subsequently followed? + +Mr. MARTIN. I must not have because I think I would have remembered it +if I had. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever consider reporting the Nixon incident to any +Federal authorities? + +Mr. MARTIN. If it didn't come out in the hearing, yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. When Mrs. Oswald was preparing to come to Washington with +you for the hearings before this Commission, did you discuss the Nixon +incident with her? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't think so. I know I told her to be sure to tell the +truth to the Commission. She had mentioned that she had lied to the FBI. + +Mr. REDLICH. With regard to what? + +Mr. MARTIN. On a Mexico trip. She told the FBI she didn't know he had +gone there or that he was going. + +Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge had she ever related the +Nixon incident to the FBI or Secret Service prior to her trip to +Washington? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. I was never in on any of the questions. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you give her any advice in connection with any of +those interviews? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I told her if she got tired to tell them so that they +could come back the next day. + +Mr. REDLICH. You say when she was planning to come here you advised her +to tell the truth? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you give her similar advice in connection with the FBI +and Secret Service interviews? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't think the situation ever arose. She asked +specifically about the Mexico incident. + +Mr. REDLICH. Throughout the many interviews with the FBI and Secret +Service you never asked her, I take it, whether she had discussed the +Nixon incident with the FBI or the Secret Service? + +Mr. MARTIN. I think I may have asked her when she told me, if she had +told the FBI. + +Mr. REDLICH. What did she say? + +Mr. MARTIN. She said no. + +Mr. REDLICH. What did you say? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall if I said anything. + +Representative FORD. Mr. Redlich. I wonder if we couldn't have Mr. +Martin tell us the time of day and the circumstances that this +conversation with Marina in the presence of your wife arose, not +necessarily the date but the time of day, and the overall---- + +Mr. MARTIN. It was in the evening. + +Representative FORD. You were sitting around the room? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, in the den. + +Representative FORD. Just the three of you? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Did she just start talking or did you prompt her +or just how did the situation arise? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall. I think maybe--I think it just came into +conversation as we were talking about the whole thing in general. + +Mr. DULLES. Were you talking at that time about what her memoirs or any +writings she might---- + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. DULLES. --she might produce would include? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Representative FORD. What was your wife's reaction to this story? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, she couldn't believe it either. + +Representative FORD. Did she ask any questions about it such as the +ones you have indicated? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, other than the ones I asked. + +Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us with whom you have discussed the Nixon +incident other than those that you have mentioned thus far, I believe +thus far you have said Mrs. Martin and Mr. Thorne. + +Is there anyone else you have told this to? + +Mr. MARTIN. Don Levine. + +Mr. REDLICH. Who? + +Mr. MARTIN. Levine. + +Mr. REDLICH. Who is he? + +Mr. MARTIN. A writer. + +Mr. REDLICH. For what publication. + +Mr. MARTIN. He is an author. + +Mr. DULLES. Freelance writer and author, Isaac Don Levine for the +record. + +Mr. REDLICH. When did you relate this incident to him? + +Mr. MARTIN. Back in January. + +Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us why you told him? + +Mr. MARTIN. He is of the opinion that there is more to this than meets +the eye, so to speak. He is---- + +Mr. DULLES. More to what? + +Mr. MARTIN. More to the assassination. + +Mr. DULLES. The Nixon story? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. DULLES. The whole assassination, Kennedy assassination? + +Mr. MARTIN. And he--of course, he is quite familiar with Russian +affairs, and he said the stories just don't match, and he was trying +to tie in Oswald, I guess, with the Communist Party or some attachment +there some place, and I mentioned that I thought he was just a nut. + +Mr. REDLICH. That who was. + +Mr. MARTIN. Oswald. And I said, I told him I didn't know how true it +was but then I related the story, and he--I cautioned him not to pass +it around or anything like that, which he said he wouldn't. + +Mr. REDLICH. Were you or Marina Oswald compensated in any way for the +release of this information to Mr. Levine? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. DULLES. Was Mr. Levine at this time trying to get the rights to the +story or the right to write the story? + +Mr. MARTIN. He wants to write the story, and through Meredith Press. + +Mr. REDLICH. Were you negotiating with Mr. Levine at the time +concerning the rights to Marina Oswald's story? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. And it was during the course of these negotiations that +you revealed to him the Nixon incident? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. And this, you say, was sometime in January? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you tell anyone else other than Mr. Levine? + +Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall unless it was Robert Oswald. + +Mr. REDLICH. Will you try to refresh your recollection with regard to +Robert? + +Mr. MARTIN. I beg your pardon? + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether you had a conversation in +mid-January with Robert Oswald concerning the Nixon incident? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember. I was trying to remember that the other +day to find out if I had mentioned it to him. And---- + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall when Robert Oswald would come to visit your +house? + +Mr. MARTIN. On Sundays. + +Mr. REDLICH. And what would he do on these Sundays? + +Mr. MARTIN. Usually take Marina and the baby to the cemetery. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether on one of those Sundays you had a +conversation with him concerning the Nixon incident? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember. I am not sure whether I did tell him or +not. It seems to me that I did, but I can't recall the incident at all. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, ever indicate to you that +she had discussed the Nixon incident with anyone else? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. To be more specific, did she ever indicate to you whether +she had discussed the Nixon incident with Robert Oswald? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. With Mrs. Marguerite Oswald? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. With any Federal authority? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Could you state again what your advice to her was with +regard to the revealing of this incident? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, I told her it would be advisable just not to say +anything about it. + +Mr. REDLICH. To anyone? + +Mr. MARTIN. That is right. + +Mr. REDLICH. But you related the incident to Mr. Levine. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. When you accompanied Mrs. Oswald to Washington for the +hearings before this Commission, did the Nixon incident come up at all +during your conversations? + +Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall. + +Mr. REDLICH. This incident which you regarded of such importance at +the time you didn't discuss with her at all during the time she was +appearing before this Commission? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember mentioning it to her. + +Mr. REDLICH. You didn't ask her whether she had told the Commissioners? + +Mr. MARTIN. I think I asked John Thorne if she had mentioned it. + +Mr. REDLICH. What did Mr. Thorne say? + +Mr. MARTIN. He said no, not yet. And I dropped it at that. + +Mr. REDLICH. You and Mr. Thorne didn't have any conversations +concerning whether she should mention it? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. At the conclusion of the testimony did you ask Mrs. Oswald +whether she had mentioned it? + +Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge, no. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you discuss with Mr. Thorne the question of whether +she had mentioned the Nixon incident before this Commission? + +Mr. MARTIN. I think so. + +Mr. REDLICH. What did Mr. Thorne say? + +Mr. MARTIN. He said no. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you and Mr. Thorne discuss whether she should have +mentioned that incident before this Commission? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you think it was an important incident, Mr. Martin? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I don't know why--the credibility of it didn't sound +logical. It didn't seem to me that it actually happened. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you speak to any representative of the Houston Post or +the Associated Press with regard to this incident in the last several +days? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yesterday morning. + +Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us the nature of that conversation? + +Mr. MARTIN. He came out and asked me. + +Mr. REDLICH. Who is "he"? + +Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, his name is Creighton, I believe or the last +name began with a "C", he is with the Houston Post, reporter. He came +out and asked me what I knew about the Nixon incident and I said I know +nothing about it. He said well he had it on good authority that there +was a diary that Lee Harvey Oswald had written and it was mentioned in +the diary. + +Now, I have never heard of a diary involved. There are some 60 pages of +manuscript that he is supposed to have written, but I have never heard +of a diary. + +Then--which I told him. + +He asked me if I knew of anyone that he could contact to find more +about it. And I said well, if anybody knows about it, it will be the +Commission, and I told him that I had just heard about it the day +before, and he asked if Marina knew anything about it, and I said I +don't know. + +Mr. REDLICH. You didn't discuss with this reporter whether you believed +the incident to be true? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. At the time you first learned about the incident you +thought it was of sufficient importance that you called Mr. Thorne the +same day, isn't that right? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. We discussed it back and forth and I don't--we +couldn't think of how it could happen. + +Mr. LEECH. Could we go off the record? + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. DULLES. Read this brief report into the record. + +Mr. REDLICH. I would like to read into the record a story which appears +in the Washington Post February 22, 1964--27, 1964, dated Houston, +Texas, February 26, Associated Press: + +"The Houston Post quoted an associate of Lee Harvey Oswald's widow +tonight as saying Oswald planned to kill former Vice President Richard +M. Nixon. The Post quoted James Martin, until a few days ago Marina +Oswald's business representative, as saying that evidence to this +effect had been presented to the Warren Commission investigating the +assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Martin is scheduled to +testify before the Commissioners Thursday. Nixon was in Dallas the +day before President Kennedy was killed. Oswald was charged with the +slaying." + +Mr. MARTIN. Now. I did not tell him--I told him exactly what I told +you, that I had no knowledge of it. I had secondhand knowledge only of +it. I said if anyone knew about it the Commission would know it. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you tell him that this evidence had been presented +before the Warren Commission? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, I told him if anybody knew about it, you would know +about it. + +Senator COOPER. I think you said a minute ago that you only learned +about it the day before? + +Mr. MARTIN. That is what I told the newspaper reporter. + +Senator COOPER. What is the significance of that? Did you talk to +somebody the day before? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, it was just a method of brushing him off. + +Senator COOPER. Had you talked to Robert Oswald the day before? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Senator COOPER. May I ask this: Now, Mrs. Marina Oswald told you about +the Nixon incident? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. Had she previously told you about the Walker incident? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. General Walker? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, after it came out in the newspapers. The first I heard +about it was when I read in the newspapers. + +Senator COOPER. Then she talked to you about it? + +Mr. MARTIN. I asked her about it. + +Senator COOPER. You have read somewhere, have you, that Mrs. Marina +Oswald said that Lee Oswald gave her his reason for wanting to shoot at +General Walker? + +Mr. MARTIN. The reason she gave me was that Lee Harvey Oswald thought +that General Walker was a Fascist. + +Senator COOPER. Right. + +Mr. MARTIN. And needed to be killed. + +Senator COOPER. Did she tell you any statement that Lee Oswald made +giving his reasons that he wanted to kill or shoot Richard Nixon? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Senator COOPER. Didn't talk about that at all? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Senator COOPER. Did she ever tell you of any other statements that Lee +Oswald had made to her about his, any attempts that he made or any +intentions that he had to kill any other person? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Senator COOPER. You are sure of that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Positive. + +Senator COOPER. Did she tell you about any statements that Lee Oswald +might have made about President Kennedy? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. Anything that---- + +Senator COOPER. You must have talked to her a great deal about this +assassination of President Kennedy. + +Mr. MARTIN. Actually, I tried to avoid most of this stuff. + +Senator COOPER. What? + +Mr. MARTIN. I tried to avoid most of these things. I don't know, I +figured they would be a sore spot with her, but I don't know whether +they were or not. + +Senator COOPER. It would be tremendously helpful to this Commission +to know if she did talk to you about the assassination of President +Kennedy and anything that Lee Oswald might have said about him before +and tell us anything---- + +Mr. MARTIN. If she had said anything to me about it I would definitely +tell you. I cannot recall any incident that--of the conversation +between she and Lee about any other assassination or about the +President. + +Mr. DULLES. Had you ever met or heard of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to +November 22, 1963? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Representative BOGGS. Mrs. Oswald lived in your home for how long? + +Mr. MARTIN. About 2-1/2 months. + +Representative BOGGS. You had many conversations with her in that +period of time. + +Mr. MARTIN. No, not really many. I was usually out of the house, and +there weren't many opportunities that arose to have a conversation. + +Representative BOGGS. Did you ever have any reason to believe that she +was anything other than what she appeared to be, namely an ordinary +housewife who had come to this country as the wife of an American whom +she married? + +Mr. MARTIN. Looking back on the whole picture, she doesn't seem quite +right. I mean she doesn't fit. + +Representative BOGGS. What do you mean by that? + +Mr. MARTIN. As a mother and a housewife. She is too cold for one thing. + +Representative BOGGS. Cold in what way? + +Mr. MARTIN. Emotionally. This thing, I don't know whether it is the +Russian woman or what, but this thing would have terrifically upset an +American woman, and she was not very upset at all. + +Representative FORD. Not upset about the assassination? + +Mr. MARTIN. About her husband. + +Representative FORD. About her husband's subsequent death? + +Representative BOGGS. Well now---- + +Mr. MARTIN. She was to a degree. But it didn't ring true. + +Representative BOGGS. So what do you mean by that. Do you mean that +because of her coolness under very terrific--very difficult conditions +and a very difficult situation, that maybe she was not just what she +appeared to be, and if not, what do you think she was? + +Mr. MARTIN. I have no idea. It is the way she treated, the way she +treated contributions, for instance; someone would send a dollar, I +don't know, maybe it was her last dollar, and she would look at it and +throw it aside and say, "Oh, it is just a dollar." And John Thorne and +I kind of built up an image for her or of her, for the American public, +and she is not exactly as we picture her in the news articles. + +Mr. REDLICH. Would you spell that out in more detail? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, for one thing, I recall instances that she read the +Bible every day, she didn't crack a Bible. She got up between 10 and 11 +o'clock every morning. The only household chores she did was wash the +evening dinner dishes, and occasionally she would vacuum. + +Representative BOGGS. This may be attributed to lack of energy or +laziness. + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, yes, that is true. But she is not a humble person at +all. + +Representative FORD. Did you ever see her cry or show any comparable +emotions? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. The closest I ever saw her to really showing any +emotion at all was when, it was about a week after she had been there, +she saw a picture, of Jackie Kennedy's picture--a picture of Jackie +Kennedy, I don't know whether it was Life Magazine or what. + +Representative BOGGS. Did she ever do anything or say anything that +would give you any reason to believe that maybe she was part of an +intelligence system? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. Although I have wondered about it since. + +Mr. REDLICH. Since when, Mr. Martin? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, this whole thing, since I got into it. This whole +thing seems to me like I have been kind of made a patsy. Robert Oswald +wouldn't take her in right after this incident because he was afraid of +what might happen, might or might not happen. + +The Fords also expressed the same opinion. + +Mr. DULLES. What do you mean by the same opinion? + +Mr. MARTIN. That they wouldn't have taken her in at first. Mr. Ford +expressed the opinion that he was afraid of what the public reaction +might be and he didn't know what to think. + +We took her in with the full knowledge that anything could happen, and +anything might happen, and it was done strictly on an altruistic basis +at first, and then this manager thing came in which I wish it hadn't at +all. + +But be that as it may, it has happened, and things have been turned +upside down. + +But then as soon as the Secret Service was pulled off then Robert +insisted that she move from my home to his home, and start proceedings +to cancel the contracts that are in existence. She was up there--she +came back to the doctor on a Tuesday after she left our home, and +stopped in at the house and said she wanted to come back to live with +us. + +Mr. DULLES. When was this approximately? Just after she moved to the +Fords or how long after she moved? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, she left my home on Sunday, went to Denton to live with +Robert, came back to the doctor, Dr. Bishop, on Tuesday, and came over +to the house to pick up some of her belongings, and---- + +Mr. REDLICH. Excuse me, just so the Commission has the date straight, +the Sunday you are referring to when she left is the Sunday after her +appearance before this Commission? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. That would be the 9th of February, is that correct? + +Mr. MARTIN. Right. + +Then on Tuesday, which would be the 11th, she came back to the house, +and wanted to move back in. + +Representative FORD. Who drove her, how did she get there? + +Mr. MARTIN. Vada Oswald, Robert Oswald's wife. + +Mr. REDLICH. Are you finished with what you were about to say? + +Mr. MARTIN. It just seemed strange to me that a sudden move should be +made like that and then within two days after that, it was Tuesday, and +Wednesday, Thursday and I received a letter from her discharging me as +her manager or attempting to discharge me. + +Representative BOGGS. I was asking you about intelligence and that sort +of thing. + +This would not indicate that sort of thing to you, would it? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, but the whole thing seemed to be a kind of a preplanned +thing. + +Mr. REDLICH. Will you spell that out in more detail because when +Congressman Boggs asked you questions as to whether Mrs. Oswald might +be part of Soviet intelligence you replied you are now beginning to +wonder, and you also replied you wonder if you have been made a patsy. + +Could you, in your own words, explain that answer in greater detail? + +Mr. MARTIN. Of course, not knowing how a spy would work or anything, +I have no knowledge of anything of this sort, this whole thing shows +a lack of gratefulness or something, and actually she showed the same +thing with Mrs. Paine. She lived with Mrs. Paine for quite some time. +Then Mrs. Paine has been trying to contact her consistently for, +well, ever since the assassination, and we have passed letters to +her, letters from Mrs. Paine to Marina, wherein she has asked Marina +to at least call her or do something, and Marina doesn't want to have +anything to do with her. + +Mr. REDLICH. Has Marina given you a reason for that? + +Mr. MARTIN. She said she doesn't like her. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you know why it was that Robert Oswald advised her not +to go back to the Paines or did you know that he did? + +Mr. MARTIN. I knew that he did. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you know the reason for that? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. He said he just didn't like her. + +Mr. DULLES. He gave no reasons? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. And Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, gave no reason to you as +to why she didn't like the Paines? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, I think it is because Robert didn't. That is a thought. + +Mr. REDLICH. You said that---- + +Mr. MARTIN. She has expressed that. + +Mr. REDLICH. You said that you were beginning to wonder whether this is +a preplanned affair. What do you mean by that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't mean preplanned from the very beginning, but +I think probably sometime in December from then on it might have been +planned. + +We have accumulated for her a considerable amount of money in story +rights. + +Representative BOGGS. How much? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, on advances, this is not the ultimate or the end +result, but just on advances, it is $132,000. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, you are reading from a document. Is that +something---- + +Mr. MARTIN. This I brought for you. We don't have the money. But these +are the contracts that have been negotiated. + +Mr. REDLICH. Is this something you are turning over to the Commission? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, that is for your information. + +Mr. DULLES. What is the nature of this document? + +Mr. MARTIN. It is a handwritten---- + +Mr. DULLES. By whom? + +Mr. MARTIN. By me, a handwritten list of the publishers, and the news +media that I have contacted in Marina's behalf to sell her movie +rights, the TV right, book rights and so forth. + +Mr. DULLES. And the amount they have proposed to pay for them? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, these are just the advances. + +Now, in the case of Texitalia Films, for instance---- + +Mr. REDLICH. Could I interrupt and get this identified? + +Mr. MARTIN. Certainly. + +Mr. REDLICH. With your permission, we would like to introduce this into +evidence and take, a photostatic copy and leave you with the original. + +Mr. MARTIN. Certainly. + +Mr. DULLES. Would you describe this? + +Mr. REDLICH. This document lists various publications, media of +communication, and indicating the amounts which have been the subject +of negotiation, and the contracts, if any, which have been signed with +these various media of publication concerning Marina Oswald's story. + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Martin has said this is written in his own hand, is +that correct, Mr. Martin? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, I have to go to a meeting at the +Speaker's office momentarily, I would just like to ask one further +question of this witness. + +Now, I understand about the business negotiations here and so forth, +but I want you to be specific--anything that comes to your mind as to +whether or not this woman, anything more than what I asked you about. + +Mr. LEECH. Can you give us about two minutes in that room? + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. REDLICH. Back on the record. + +Mr. DULLES. Just one minute. This should go in the record. + +Representative BOGGS. Who is this individual? + +Mr. MARTIN. I have been trying to remember his name. I can find out his +name. It began with an "H". + +Mr. DULLES. Would you repeat the story, please, and then we will +continue with the examination. + +Mr. MARTIN. I met a gentleman who is an executive with the Dinkler +Hotel chain, and he related the story to me that was told to him by +one of their engineers, a maintenance man in the Atlanta, in their +Atlanta hotel. The maintenance man's wife was an, or is a long distance +telephone operator, and on the night preceding the assassination there +was an individual that called, well, the way I heard the story, that +she said he sounded like he had been drinking, and that he mentioned +to her to remember this telephone call because it would go down in +history. He made a credit card call to Lee Harvey Oswald, and simply +said, "Proceed as planned." + +Then he made another telephone call to Jack Ruby and told him that if +anything went wrong he knew what to do. + +Now, I questioned this, I guess there are numerous rumors of this type +or whatever it is, and he said no, that it was definitely the truth, +and the reason she hadn't come out before with it was that it is a +violation of Federal law to listen to a long distance telephone call, +and that they finally did report it to the FBI. + +Mr. REDLICH. The person you were speaking to, as I understand this +story, received the information from a maintenance man whose wife was +the telephone operator who overheard the conversation? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Representative BOGGS. Was this a telephone operator in a Dinkler hotel? + +Mr. MARTIN. I didn't get that whether it was in a Dinkler hotel or +whether she was in the long distance or toll offices in Atlanta. + +Representative BOGGS. Did this person have the credit card number and +so forth? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. The person that I was talking to? + +Representative BOGGS. Did the telephone operator have it? + +Mr. MARTIN. The telephone operator did, or the telephone company has +the records. + +Representative BOGGS. Do you have any other information that would +indicate that---- + +Mr. MARTIN. No, I know this doesn't indicate anything about Marina as +far as--no, it is just a strange feeling as far as Marina is concerned. +She is too cold. + +Mr. REDLICH. When did you hear about this story, Mr. Martin? + +Mr. MARTIN. About a week ago. + +Mr. REDLICH. You haven't discussed it at all with Marina in that week? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. I would like to question you again on Congressman Boggs +point. You have said she is too cold, you have said you thought that +all this was preplanned. Is there anything specific in anything that +she told you or in any of her actions which would lead you to believe +that she has withheld certain information from you, or this Commission, +concerning her knowledge about the assassination? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, except she made a remark to me one time that she didn't +volunteer anything. She only answered questions. + +Representative FORD. This was after the return from the Commission +hearing? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, this was sometime ago. That was before---- + +Representative FORD. Before the Commission hearing where she appeared? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And it was---- + +Mr. DULLES. Is that all you had on this particular point? + +Representative BOGGS. Yes. + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember what brought it up even. She didn't like +the FBI. She said that. And she didn't like to answer questions. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did she tell you why? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. She just didn't like them. Boguslav in particular. + +Mr. DULLES. But her remark was made before her hearing before this +Commission? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. And did not relate then to that hearing. + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate to you she had revealed everything that +there was to reveal before this Commission? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. There again I didn't question her about anything that +she said in the Commission. I didn't feel it was any of my business for +one thing, and all I asked her is how it went, and she would say fine, +and that would be the end of it. That is the limit of my questioning +her as far as testimony within the Commission was concerned. + +Mr. REDLICH. Will you tell us how you found out about the General +Walker incident? + +Mr. MARTIN. Read it from the newspapers. + +Mr. REDLICH. When you read about it did you talk to Mrs. Oswald about +it? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us the nature of the conversation? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, I asked her if it was true, and she said yes, and I +also asked her who was with Oswald, and she said no one. He did things +alone. And, let's see, she related the story as to the note he had +written. He had left earlier in the evening, and he hadn't come home +at the, we'll say, at an early hour, and she was getting quite upset +with him, and she found this note on a bed table or somewhere in the +bedroom, and read it, and it simply said that he might be gone for a +time or he might be in jail, and instructions as to what to do in case +he was gone. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina tell you all about this? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. In English? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. She knew English well enough to be able to relate this +type of story? + +Mr. MARTIN. She learned very rapidly. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall approximately when that was? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. It was the same day it came out in the paper. + +Representative FORD. Did she know of her own knowledge about General +Walker? Did she indicate any background information about General +Walker? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Representative FORD. She only told what Lee told her about it? + +Mr. MARTIN. Lee told her he was a Fascist. + +Mr. DULLES. Did she recount to you, that is, did Marina account to +you, what she said to Lee Harvey after this incident, after the Walker +incident, after he told her about the Walker incident? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she said that she hid the note that he left in a +cookbook and told him if he ever did anything like that again that she +would turn that note over to the police and turn him over to the police +also. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, were you aware that Marina Oswald had +given this information voluntarily to the Secret Service or the FBI +concerning the Walker incident? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask her about it? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was in the newspapers so I assumed they knew about +it. + +Mr. REDLICH. And you assumed she had volunteered this information? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course now, I was a little concerned to begin with +as to how it got out. + +Mr. REDLICH. Why were you concerned? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, if she had told it to the FRI and the FBI only then +how did it get in the newspapers? + +Mr. REDLICH. What was the--you say you were concerned that certain +aspects of her story were being released. What was the nature of your +concern? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, I was just wondering how that information got to the +newspapers? + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask her? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, I didn't ask her because she didn't see any newspaper +reporters at all. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask any of the agents of the FBI or the Secret +Service? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Mr. Heitman. + +Mr. REDLICH. What did Mr. Heitman tell you? + +Mr. MARTIN. He said it didn't come from the Dallas office. He said it +must have come from Washington. The Houston Chronicle brought it out. + +Mr. REDLICH. By Washington he meant the Washington office? + +Mr. MARTIN. Of the FBI, the Justice Department. + +Mr. REDLICH. FBI. That was his opinion as to where this information +could come from? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask Mrs. Oswald why she had not revealed this +information prior to that time? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I tried to stay as far away from this investigation as +possible, because I didn't want to get into it at all to be real frank +about it. I figured there are people better equipped than I to ferret +out information and they have methods of doing it that I have no idea +about. + +Mr. REDLICH. At that time, however, you were acting as her business +representative. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Because I had to refute something in the paper. + +Mr. REDLICH. Were you assisting her at that time in the preparation of +any narratives that she was preparing in connection with her story? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. She has never written anything other than the +manuscript that she wrote for the Commission. And we have never +pre-prepared anything. + +Mr. DULLES. Has she had conversations with others, to your knowledge, +who have been writing material, Isaac Don Levine, for example? + +Mr. MARTIN. The only one would be Levine. + +Mr. DULLES. The only one would be Isaac Don Levine? + +Mr. MARTIN. Levine told me she told him that her husband was a +Trotskyite. Now what that means, I don't know but he seemed to think +quite a bit. + +Mr. DULLES. Marina told Isaac Don Levine? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. That Marina's husband? + +Mr. MARTIN. Lee Oswald was a Trotskyite. + +Mr. DULLES. He was a Trotskyite. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, in what way do you consider yourself a patsy? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, because this, for instance---- + +Mr. REDLICH. May we introduce this in evidence so we know what we are +talking about? + +Mr. Chairman, I offer---- + +Mr. DULLES. Identify it. + +Mr. REDLICH. In the course of the witness' explanation of his business +representation of Mrs. Oswald the witness has presented before this +Commission a list of arrangements that he has entered into or is +considering entering into concerning the sale of certain aspects of +Mrs. Oswald's story. This document is, we are told, written in Mr. +Martin's handwriting. I show the witness Commission Exhibit No. 325 and +ask you whether this document is one that you have brought before the +Commission and whether its contents are as I have described them. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it is. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I ask that Commission Exhibit No. 325 be +admitted. + +Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 325 for +identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. REDLICH. It is understood that a photostat of this exhibit will +be made part of the permanent record of the Commission, and that the +original will be returned to the witness. + +Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you wouldn't leave us the original in this case +because this was prepared for the Commission? + +Mr. MARTIN. You can have the original. + +Mr. DULLES. We will keep the original and we will be glad to give you a +photostat for your records. + +Mr. MARTIN. I have it right up here. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you want to read that into the record, it is quite short +and it might make the record more intelligible. + +Mr. REDLICH. Since this is in the handwriting of the witness may I +suggest that the witness read it? + +Mr. DULLES. Right. + +Mr. MARTIN. Texitalia Films, $75,000 movie and the TV rights, World +Wide plus $7,500 plus expenses per film appearance, plus $1,500 +per--plus expenses for personal appearance. Contract was signed +February 11. + +Life Magazine was $5,000, North American rights for Lee had photo with +rifle and pistol. + +Stern Magazine, $12,500, story serial rights for Germany and Italy +only, with a 70-30 percent reciprocal for serial rights in Europe, 70 +percent to Marina. + +Stern Magazine, $2,650 picture rights on the seven photos with same +arrangements as above. + +Mr. REDLICH. Finish the documents. + +Mr. MARTIN. Meredith Press, $25,000 advance on world book rights. + +London Daily Mirror $2,200 guarantee on 50-50 reciprocal for British +Commonwealth rights on rifle photo. + +Detroit Free Press stole photo and has sold it to foreign news media +thereby leaving themselves liable. + +This Week Magazine, $1,500 for 500-word article. + +Total is $132,350. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, it is in connection with this document that +you have referred to yourself as a possible patsy? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one moment before that, how much has been +received and how much is---- + +Mr. MARTIN. $50,000 of it. The rest is being held, $75,000 in Texitalia +Films they have the money. + +Mr. DULLES. Who is they? + +Mr. MARTIN. Texitalia Films. But they don't want to part with it until +this is settled. + +Mr. REDLICH. Until what is settled? + +Mr. MARTIN. Until there is an amicable settlement between Marina Oswald +and myself. + +Mr. REDLICH. Concerning your representation of her? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. You mean they are holding their own money and not paying it +at the present time? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. It hasn't been put in escrow or anything of that kind? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. We have received $5,000 from Life Magazine. That is in +an escrow account. I have a check for $2,400 from Stern Magazine, which +is uncashed because the attorney McKenzie who has been hired by Robert +wrote a letter to Stern Magazine saying that I had no authority to make +any deals for Marina. So they stopped payment on the check. Of course, +I haven't tried to cash the check, so it is sitting. + +Mr. REDLICH. At this time, rather than go into the details of these +business arrangements, I would like to revert to the question posed +earlier in connection with this document, you referred to yourself as a +patsy. + +Would you care to explain that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, I have put in approximately 2-1/2 months of good, +hard work and grief trying in the first place, trying to keep the news +media away from her and at the same time trying to sell her story. + +Mr. REDLICH. Don't assume we know anything, tell us everything. + +Mr. MARTIN. I had to leave my job at the Inn of the Six Flags to +properly handle this which was the first of the year. I could not keep +going on both jobs. These contracts were negotiated on the basis of +my contract with her, which states that I have full power to sign any +contracts for her in these fields. + +William McKenzie, who is, was hired, apparently, by Robert Oswald, and +is acting in his behalf, I guess, although he is using Marina Oswald's +name, has tried to cancel my contract retroactively, in other words, +just like it was never there at all, and it just happened too suddenly +for it not to have been planned. + +Mr. REDLICH. What would have been planned? What is the plan that you +suspect? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, the dropping of it--as soon as the money starts +to come in, then the first thing they want to do is get rid of the +personal manager and the attorney who has been taking all, who have +been the buffers for the 2-1/2 months prior to that. + +The Secret Service was pulled off, there is apparently no danger at +all concerning her life or anyone connected with her. So they feel +perfectly safe in taking off, carrying on where we left off, utilizing +all the work that we had put into it. + +This was not a decision that was made in two days. + +Mr. REDLICH. Could you be more specific in terms of your suspicions +with regard to the plan which you have alleged here was designed to get +you off this job? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, I have letters from--one from Marina and one from +McKenzie, that requests my discharge from this contractual agreement. + +Now they have actually no reason to cancel the contract. I have +performed as far as these sales are concerned quite well, and, of +course, those are just advance payments of $132,000. There would be +more on royalties after that. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you sign these agreements or Mr. Thorne or did Marina +sign them? + +Mr. MARTIN. I did. + +Mr. DULLES. These agreements with the news media? + +Mr. MARTIN. I did. + +Mr. DULLES. You signed them? + +Mr. MARTIN. According to the contract that I have with Marina, "You +will authorize me and approve for and in my behalf and in your +discretion and decision the following: approve and permit the use of +my name, photographs, likeness, voice, sound effects, characters, +persons for all publicity, advertising and the promotion of any and all +ventures desired by you to be undertaken by me and for the performance +by me of any appearance or service. You are authorized, empowered and +directed by me." + +Mr. DULLES. I think we have a copy of this, do we not? + +Mr. REDLICH. Yes. You are reading from---- + +Mr. MARTIN. My contract. + +Mr. REDLICH. Yes, just so the record is clear, the contract between +James Martin and Marina Oswald is Commission Exhibit 276 which was +introduced in connection with Robert Oswald's testimony. Mr. Martin, +there has been introduced in a prior hearing what is now Commission +Exhibits Nos. 274 and 275, a letter from William McKenzie to you and a +letter from William McKenzie to Mr. Thorne concerning the discharging +of your services. + +Do you have any document which you wish to introduce at the present +time concerning that--the reasons given for your discharge, because I +would like to ask you questions concerning that? + +Mr. LEECH. May I ask the date of the letter please, sir? Give me the +date. I think we have the originals, sir. + +Mr. REDLICH. There is one dated February 18, two of them dated February +18. + +Mr. LEECH. Yes, one to Jim Martin and one to Mr. John Thorne. + +Mr. REDLICH. One is addressed to Mr. James Martin and the other to Mr. +John Thorne. + +Mr. LEECH. Yes, sir; we have the originals. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you have with you any other letters in connection with +the termination of Mr. Martin's services? + +Mr. MARTIN. One from Marina Oswald. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, you said earlier in your testimony that you +were building a public image of Marina Oswald? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Would you tell the Commission what you mean by that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, in this type of thing---- + +Mr. REDLICH. May I interrupt and suggest you don't thumb through---- + +Mr. MARTIN. Excuse me. We were trying to create in the public mind an +image of a bereaved widow and a simple lost girl. And I think we did +actually. This was for her, as I say, for her benefit. She has received +some $68,000 in contributions, and the image is not all true. + +Mr. REDLICH. Would you tell us in respect to which in your opinion the +image is not true? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, as I mentioned before about the bible, this is a very +small incident, she has received numerous bibles in the mail, and to my +knowledge has never read the first page of one, and most of them are in +Russian. + +This is a small thing really but it is part of her image, that she is a +religious person. + +She wants to be thought of as we have built her now but she doesn't +conform to that image. + +Mr. REDLICH. In what way, how? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, she is lazy, for one thing. + +Mr. REDLICH. Lazy in what respect? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, as far as even taking care of the children. The +children bother her. I mean to her they are a constant upset. When she +left our home to go up to Denton, my wife offered to keep the baby +there at the house if she liked, and Marina took her up on it and then +Robert told her she had better take the baby with her. She hadn't +seen the baby for over a week. And the first day she was back she was +willing to leave the baby again. + +Mr. REDLICH. Is there anything else? + +Mr. MARTIN. Her lack of, well, humbleness as far as all these +contributions are concerned. She takes it as a matter of--she takes it +for granted. She is quite unhappy when the contributions slack off. + +Mr. REDLICH. Has she discussed the amount of contributions with you? + +Mr. MARTIN. I have kept her informed all along on it. + +Mr. REDLICH. Has she indicated that there is some relationship between +the story that she reveals to the public and the contributions which +she will receive? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Would you be more specific about that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, she has read newspaper articles, for instance, that I +haven't written but I have directed. + +Mr. REDLICH. Directed? + +Mr. MARTIN. By giving them information. + +Mr. REDLICH. What is the nature---- + +Mr. MARTIN. To build it up. + +Mr. REDLICH. What is the nature of these articles? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, I recall one, I wonder if I have it, I guess I don't +have it, that was written by Bill Burrus of the Times Herald in Dallas. +It was a very good article, and not quite true, we will say. It is +shaded in truth. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you have the article with you? + +Mr. MARTIN. Here is one Bill Burrus did that is when she went to +midnight mass. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin has submitted to the Commission an article +which does not carry a date or the name of the publication in which it +appears, but is headed "Marina Oswald attended mass, had quiet Yule", +by Bill Burrus. + +Mr. MARTIN. That was the Dallas Times Herald. + +Mr. REDLICH. Since we would like to question the witness about this, +I would like to label it Commission Exhibit No. 326 and ask it be +introduced in evidence. + +Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted with no objection. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 326 for +identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. REDLICH. I hand you Commission Exhibit 326, Mr. Martin. Will you +tell us in what respects this article is not true? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, I wouldn't say it is strictly not true. But it +embellishes the truth. + +Mr. REDLICH. Could you be specific in terms of references to the +particular article? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, for instance, let's see, is this where she went to +church? + +Mr. DULLES. Did she go to church? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. LEECH. It is my partner's church. + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, for instance, "she wandered around the secret +quarters for long periods of time, sometimes she listened to Christmas +carols over radio or television", which I believe is not true. I don't +believe I told that; that was just added in there. + +"Marina continued her studies of the English language and watched +television, including her favorite Steve Allen show". She doesn't even +like Steve Allen. And, of course, she is never studying English. + +Mr. DULLES. Was this information that you gave to Mr. Burrus? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. That is the trouble with newspapers. I have told Bill +Burrus that she watches Steve Allen. She does but just for lack of +anything else to do. + +Now I didn't say anything about the Christmas carols nor about studying +the English language. + +Mr. DULLES. You say she has not been studying the English language? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, she is learning it quite rapidly because she had to in +her own defense in order to converse with people. When she was living +with us, there was no one there that spoke Russian so she had to learn +English in order to converse. + +Mr. DULLES. Is there anything else in this particular article that you +would either regard as unslanted or untrue? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. DULLES. Could you give us other examples where---- + +Mr. MARTIN. There is the first one. + +Mr. DULLES. If you are planning to comment on that I would like to +introduce it in evidence. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. This will go with it. + +Mr. REDLICH. The witness has submitted to the Commission an article +appearing in the Dallas Times Herald on Sunday, December 15, 1963, +the headline reading, "Marina Oswald, all the pity in the world won't +help", written by Bill Burrus. This has now been marked as Commission +Exhibit No. 327, and I ask that it be admitted in evidence. + +Mr. DULLES. This will be admitted, if there is no objection. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 327 for +identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 327 and ask +you to tell the Commission in what respects if any there is material in +this article which you regard as untrue or exaggerated or slanted? + +Mr. MARTIN. Here is a sentence in here, "She pores over the letters +reaching her more than a thousand so far and is choked with emotion +by the compassion and support they express", the only thing she did +actually was to open the letters and did not open all of them. The only +letters she read or attempted to read were ones written in Russian. + +Mr. REDLICH. What was her reaction to those letters? + +Mr. MARTIN. Acceptance of it but no real thankfulness. The further it +went, the longer it went, it seemed the less she cared whether---- + +Mr. DULLES. Did Burrus get this slanted material from you? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall anything she specifically said in response +to these letters that is leading you to the conclusion that you have +reached? + +Mr. MARTIN. That she specifically said? + +Mr. REDLICH. Yes. + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, for instance, one day she opened a letter and there +was a dollar in it and she said, "Oh, a dollar", and threw it on the +table, and there are little things that living as closely as we did, +you can't really recall the specific incidents but there is a general +feeling, and there is a complete lack of compassion as to what all +these people are doing for her or trying to do for her. + +Mr. REDLICH. But you can't recall anything specific that she said which +would indicate this lack of compassion? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, other than "the American people are crazy for sending +me that money". + +Mr. REDLICH. Is that a quotation from Mrs. Oswald? She said the +American people are crazy for sending this money? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did she elaborate on it? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you reply to that? + +Mr. MARTIN. I told her that they felt sorry for her and she didn't say +anything. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did she make any other comments of that nature? + +Mr. MARTIN. Other than that dollar bill. Those are the only ones I can +remember specifically. + +Mr. REDLICH. Would you continue your examination of Commission Exhibit +No. 327? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, let's see, "unlike her husband, Marina is devout. +She is a member of the Greek Orthodox Church", that is not true. She +was not a devout Greek orthodox. She was not devout anything so far as +religion is concerned. + +Mr. DULLES. Did she ever say anything about the baptism of her child in +that church to you? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, now let's see, she was supposed to have gotten June +baptized without her husband's knowledge. + +Mr. REDLICH. You say she was supposed to have, where did you get that +information? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, I read it somewhere prior to this article. This +article has it in there. I didn't give him this information. He got it +from some other article, and I recall reading it. And when she read +this, she commented on it. She said he did know that June was being +baptized. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did she read that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. In English? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. She knew English well enough to read this? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. It took her a while to read it. + +Mr. REDLICH. I would like to call the attention---- + +Mr. MARTIN. This is December 15. + +Mr. REDLICH. I would like to call the attention of the Commission to +the date which is Sunday, December 15. You say as of Sunday, December +15, which is a little over 3 weeks after she came to live with you, +Mrs. Oswald knew English well enough to be able to read this and +understand it? + +Mr. MARTIN. Not to read it legibly, I mean not to understand every word +of it but she understood the biggest part of the article. I was quite +amazed at how much she could read. She can't read writing or says she +can't, but she can read printing or typing. + +Here is another one now, "she is poring over children's primary readers +and studying the Russian-English dictionary attempting to understand +all the words and talk about her." + +She had one child's book that one of the Secret Service men brought +her, and she looked at it and that was the end of that. + +Mr. REDLICH. Where did this information appearing in this story come +from? Did you tell that to Mr. Burrus? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. When Mrs. Oswald read this story and saw things that were +not quite true, did she discuss that fact with you? + +Mr. MARTIN. On one occasion, let's see, what was it--it may have been +in this article. Oh, yes, about the baptism. She said that Lee did know +about the baptism. This was gleaned from some place else. + +Mr. DULLES. Before or afterward? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, she said before. Before the baptism. + +"She washes clothes for herself and June Lee, she cooks her own meals +favoring macaroni and other casserole dishes." She did not cook her own +meals. She cooked twice while she was at the house in two and a half +months. + +Mr. REDLICH. Is this fact one which you related to Mr. Burrus, the fact +she cooked her own meals? + +Mr. MARTIN. I didn't say she cooked her own meals but she cooked. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall what reaction if any Mrs. Oswald had in +reading this comment? + +Mr. MARTIN. The only one she commented on was she doesn't like +macaroni, it is noodles. + +Mr. REDLICH. But Mrs. Oswald voiced no objection to your giving this +information to the newspapers which to use your expression was not +quite true? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. "Marina now has the first dish washer she has ever used +and she thinks it is wonderful". Actually, she didn't like it but now +in most of this stuff Bill Burrus would ask me a question like, "Does +she have a dish washer", and I would say "yes", and he would elaborate +on it. + +This is quite a sympathetic article. "Marina gets up at about 9 a.m. +every day." She always got up between 10 and 11. "She asked Secret +Service men to read some of the letters to her". I don't recall any +incident where she did. + +Mr. REDLICH. Was that also a fact which you gave to Mr. Burrus? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +"As the hours and days tick by Marina watches television and struggles +with newspapers. These things bring tears to her eyes, pictures of +President Kennedy, Jackie, Lee Oswald, Mrs. Tippit, the wife of the +slain police officer. Sometimes she turns off the set." That is not +true. + +Mr. REDLICH. Could you be a little bit more specific about that? Were +there instances in which she saw these people mentioned and what was +her reaction? + +Mr. MARTIN. No real reaction at all. Just there on television. + +Mr. DULLES. You started to describe earlier I think when she saw a +picture of Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy and she made certain remarks. I +don't know that we finished that. + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, yes; she did. She remarked, "Oh, Jackie, Jackie", +and that was it. There wasn't--kind of shook her head. That is in this +article, too, and that is true. + +Of course, this last paragraph, "The agents speak through curtains and +she feels hunted sometimes despite friendly letters and packages". I +don't think she has ever felt hunted or in danger. She has expressed +that opinion. She didn't feel that anyone was--anyone intended to harm +her. + +Mr. DULLES. Did she ever express any ideas about going back to the +Soviet Union? + +Mr. MARTIN. She said it once and I questioned her about it. She said +she was just--what was it--just joking. She used a funny sounding word +for joking. I don't remember what it was. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any further comments with regard to this +particular exhibit? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. I suggest this would be a good time for recess, Mr. +Chairman. + +Mr. DULLES. All right. The Commission will be adjourned until 3 p.m., +this afternoon. + +Would you report with your counsel at that time? + +(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +Transcriber's Notes: + + +Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant +preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. + +Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be +due to mispronunciations were not changed. + +Some simple typographical errors were corrected. + +Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. + +Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. + +Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected. + +Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of +conversation?") retained. + +Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. + +Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. + +Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be +periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at +the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at +the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so +faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and +corrected, but some almost certainly remain. + +The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be +available at Project Gutenberg. + +Pages ix-xi: A three-page list of Exhibit numbers has been omitted from +this eBook. + +Page 20: "Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't remember that Lee had just" probably +should have a period after "that". + +Page 20: "Mr. Rankin. Did our husband" probably should be "your". + +Page 139: "No, she will probably be home in time to fix my supper?" +probably should end with a period instead of a question mark. + +Page 176: Spurious quotation mark removed before "The money that came +into my home that" + +Page 245: Missing closing quotation mark for: 'I said "No, Reverend +Saunders,' + +Page 297: "And you worked at the A. & P. during this period?" changed +to "A&P" for consistency with other occurrences of that abbreviation. + +Page 344: "copy for the original. I will undertake" The period probably +should be a comma. + + + + + + + +End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (1 of 26): Hearings +Vol. I (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy + +*** END OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK 44001 *** |