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diff --git a/38808-h/38808-h.htm b/38808-h/38808-h.htm new file mode 100644 index 0000000..cefcf87 --- /dev/null +++ b/38808-h/38808-h.htm @@ -0,0 +1,24642 @@ +<?xml version="1.0" encoding="us-ascii"?> + +<!DOCTYPE html + PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" + "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd" > + +<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" lang="en" xml:lang="en"> + <head> + <title> + The Works of Robert G. Ingersoll, by Robert G. Ingersoll + </title> + <style type="text/css" xml:space="preserve"> + + body { margin:5%; background:#faebd0; text-align:justify} + P { text-indent: 1em; margin-top: .25em; margin-bottom: .25em; } + H1,H2,H3,H4,H5,H6 { text-align: center; margin-left: 15%; margin-right: 15%; } + hr { width: 50%; text-align: center;} + .foot { margin-left: 20%; margin-right: 20%; text-align: justify; text-indent: -3em; font-size: 90%; } + blockquote {font-size: 97%; font-style: italic; margin-left: 10%; margin-right: 10%;} + .mynote {background-color: #DDE; color: #000; padding: .5em; margin-left: 10%; margin-right: 10%; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 95%;} + .toc { margin-left: 10%; margin-bottom: .75em;} + .toc2 { margin-left: 20%;} + div.fig { display:block; margin:0 auto; text-align:center; } + .figleft {float: left; margin-left: 0%; margin-right: 1%;} + .figright {float: right; margin-right: 0%; margin-left: 1%;} + .pagenum {display:inline; font-size: 70%; font-style:normal; + margin: 0; padding: 0; position: absolute; right: 1%; + text-align: right;} + pre { font-style: italic; font-size: 90%; margin-left: 10%;} + +</style> + </head> + <body> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + +The Project Gutenberg EBook of The Works of Robert G. Ingersoll, Vol. 8 +(of 12), by Robert G. Ingersoll + +This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with +almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or +re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included +with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org + + +Title: The Works of Robert G. Ingersoll, Vol. 8 (of 12) + Dresden Edition--Interviews + +Author: Robert G. Ingersoll + +Release Date: February 9, 2012 [EBook #38808] +Last Updated: November 15, 2012 + +Language: English + +Character set encoding: ASCII + +*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WORKS OF INGERSOLL *** + + + + +Produced by David Widger + + + + + +</pre> + <p> + <a name="title" id="title"></a> + </p> + <h1> + THE WORKS OF ROBERT G. INGERSOLL + </h1> + <p> + <br /> + </p> + <h2> + By Robert G. Ingersoll + </h2> + <p> + <br /> + </p> + <h4> + "HAPPINESS IS THE ONLY GOOD, REASON THE ONLY<br /> TORCH, JUSTICE THE ONLY + WORSHIP, HUMANITY THE<br /> ONLY RELIGION, AND LOVE THE ONLY PRIEST."<br /> + </h4> + <p> + <br /> + </p> + <h3> + IN TWELVE VOLUMES, VOLUME VIII. + </h3> + <h3> + INTERVIEWS + </h3> + <h3> + 1900 + </h3> + <h3> + Dresden Edition + </h3> + <p> + <br /> <br /> + </p> + <table summary="" style="margin-right: auto; margin-left: auto" cellpadding="4" border="3"> + <tbody> + <tr> + <td> + <a + href="http://www.gutenberg.org/files/38808/old/orig38808-h/main.htm">This + file has been formatted in a very plain format for use with tablet + readers. Those wishing to view this eBook in its normal more + appealing format for laptops and other computers may click on this + line to to view the original HTML file.</a> + </td> + <td></td> + </tr> + </tbody> + </table> + <p> + <br /> + </p> + <div class="fig" style="width:80%;"> + <img alt="titlepage (62K)" src="images/titlepage.jpg" width="100%" /><br /> + </div> + <p> + <br /> <br /> + </p> + <div class="fig" style="width:80%;"> + <img alt="frontispiece (64K)" src="images/frontispiece.jpg" width="100%" /><br /> + </div> + <h4> "<i>With daughters' babes upon his knees, the white hair mingling + with the gold</i>."</h4> + <hr /> + <p> + <br /> <br /> + </p> + <h2> + Contents + </h2> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0001">INTERVIEWS</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0002">THE BIBLE AND A FUTURE LIFE</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0003">MRS. VAN COTT, THE REVIVALIST</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0004">EUROPEAN TRIP AND GREENBACK QUESTION</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0005">THE PRE-MILLENNIAL CONFERENCE.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0006">THE SOLID SOUTH AND RESUMPTION.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0007">THE SUNDAY LAWS OF PITTSBURG.*</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0008">POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0009">POLITICS AND GEN. GRANT</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0010">POLITICS, RELIGION AND THOMAS PAINE.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0011">REPLY TO CHICAGO CRITICS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0012">THE REPUBLICAN VICTORY.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0013">INGERSOLL AND BEECHER.*</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0014">POLITICAL.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0015">RELIGION IN POLITICS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0016">MIRACLES AND IMMORTALITY.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0017">THE POLITICAL OUTLOOK.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0018">MR. BEECHER, MOSES AND THE NEGRO.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0019">HADES, DELAWARE AND FREETHOUGHT.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0020">A REPLY TO THE REV. MR. LANSING.*</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0021">BEACONSFIELD, LENT AND REVIVALS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0022">ANSWERING THE NEW YORK MINISTERS.*</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0023">GUITEAU AND HIS CRIME.*</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0024">DISTRICT SUFFRAGE.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0025">FUNERAL OF JOHN G. MILLS AND IMMORTALITY.*</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0026">STAR ROUTE AND POLITICS.*</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0027">THE INTERVIEWER.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0028">POLITICS AND PROHIBITION.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0029">THE REPUBLICAN DEFEAT IN OHIO.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0030">THE CIVIL RIGHTS BILL.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0031">JUSTICE HARLAN AND THE CIVIL RIGHTS BILL.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0032">POLITICS AND THEOLOGY.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0033">MORALITY AND IMMORTALITY.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0034">POLITICS, MORMONISM AND MR. BEECHER</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0035">FREE TRADE AND CHRISTIANITY.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0036">THE OATH QUESTION.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0037">WENDELL PHILLIPS, FITZ JOHN PORTER AND BISMARCK.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0038">GENERAL SUBJECTS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0039">REPLY TO KANSAS CITY CLERGY.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0040">SWEARING AND AFFIRMING.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0041">REPLY TO A BUFFALO CRITIC.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0042">BLASPHEMY.*</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0043">POLITICS AND BRITISH COLUMBIA.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0044">INGERSOLL CATECHISED.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0045">BLAINE'S DEFEAT.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0046">BLAINE'S DEFEAT.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0047">PLAGIARISM AND POLITICS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0048">RELIGIOUS PREJUDICE.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0049">CLEVELAND AND HIS CABINET.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0050">RELIGION, PROHIBITION, AND GEN. GRANT.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0051">HELL OR SHEOL AND OTHER SUBJECTS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0052">INTERVIEWING, POLITICS AND SPIRITUALISM.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0053">MY BELIEF.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0054">SOME LIVE TOPICS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0055">THE PRESIDENT AND SENATE.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0056">ATHEISM AND CITIZENSHIP.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0057">THE LABOR QUESTION.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0058">RAILROADS AND POLITICS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0059">PROHIBITION.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0060">HENRY GEORGE AND LABOR.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0061">LABOR QUESTION AND SOCIALISM.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0062">HENRY GEORGE AND SOCIALISM.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0063">REPLY TO THE REV. B. F. MORSE.*</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0064">INGERSOLL ON McGLYNN.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0065">TRIAL OF THE CHICAGO ANARCHISTS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0066">THE STAGE AND THE PULPIT.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0067">ROSCOE CONKLING.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0068">THE CHURCH AND THE STAGE.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0069">PROTECTION AND FREE TRADE.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0070">LABOR, AND TARIFF REFORM.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0071">CLEVELAND AND THURMAN.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0072">THE REPUBLICAN PLATFORM OF 1888.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0073">JAMES G. BLAINE AND POLITICS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0074">THE MILLS BILL.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0075">SOCIETY AND ITS CRIMINALS*</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0076">WOMAN'S RIGHT TO DIVORCE.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0077">SECULARISM.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0078">SUMMER RECREATION—MR. GLADSTONE.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0079">PROHIBITION.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0080">ROBERT ELSMERE.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0081">WORKING GIRLS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0082">PROTECTION FOR AMERICAN ACTORS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0083">LIBERALS AND LIBERALISM.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0084">POPE LEO XIII.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0085">THE SACREDNESS OF THE SABBATH.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0086">THE WEST AND SOUTH.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0087">THE WESTMINSTER CREED AND OTHER SUBJECTS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0088">SHAKESPEARE AND BACON.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0089">GROWING OLD GRACEFULLY, AND PRESBYTERIANISM.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0090">CREEDS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0091">THE TENDENCY OF MODERN THOUGHT.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0092">WOMAN SUFFRAGE, HORSE RACING, AND MONEY.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0093">MISSIONARIES.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0094">MY BELIEF AND UNBELIEF.*</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0095">MUST RELIGION GO?</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0096">WORD PAINTING AND COLLEGE EDUCATION.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0097">PERSONAL MAGNETISM AND THE SUNDAY QUESTION.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0098">AUTHORS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0099">INEBRIETY.*</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0100">MIRACLES, THEOSOPHY AND SPIRITUALISM.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0101">TOLSTOY AND LITERATURE.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0102">WOMAN IN POLITICS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0103">SPIRITUALISM.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0104">PLAYS AND PLAYERS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0105">WOMAN.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0106">STRIKES, EXPANSION AND OTHER SUBJECTS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0107">SUNDAY A DAY OF PLEASURE.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0108">THE PARLIAMENT OF RELIGIONS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0109">CLEVELAND'S HAWAIIAN POLICY.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0110">ORATORS AND ORATORY.*</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0111">CATHOLICISM AND PROTESTANTISM. THE POPE, THE A. P. A., + AGNOSTICISM</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0112">WOMAN AND HER DOMAIN.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0113">PROFESSOR SWING.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0114">SENATOR SHERMAN AND HIS BOOK.*</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0115">REPLY TO THE CHRISTIAN ENDEAVORERS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0116">SPIRITUALISM.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0117">A LITTLE OF EVERYTHING.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0118">IS LIFE WORTH LIVING—CHRISTIAN SCIENCE AND + POLITICS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0119">VIVISECTION.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0120">DIVORCE.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0121">MUSIC, NEWSPAPERS, LYNCHING AND ARBITRATION.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0122">A VISIT TO SHAW'S GARDEN.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0123">THE VENEZUELAN BOUNDARY DISCUSSION AND THE + WHIPPING-POST.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0124">COLONEL SHEPARD'S STAGE HORSES.*</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0125">A REPLY TO THE REV. L. A. BANKS.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0126">CUBA—ZOLA AND THEOSOPHY.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0127">HOW TO BECOME AN ORATOR.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0128">JOHN RUSSELL YOUNG AND EXPANSION.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0129">PSYCHICAL RESEARCH AND THE BIBLE.*</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0130">THIS CENTURY'S GLORIES.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0131">CAPITAL PUNISHMENT AND THE WHIPPING-POST.</a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link0132">EXPANSION AND TRUSTS.*</a> + </p> + <p> + <br /> <br /> + </p> + <hr /> + <p> + <br /> <br /> <a name="link0001" id="link0001"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + INTERVIEWS + </h2> + <p> + <a name="link0002" id="link0002"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE BIBLE AND A FUTURE LIFE + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Colonel, are your views of religion based upon the Bible? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I regard the Bible, especially the Old Testament, the same + as I do most other ancient books, in which there is some truth, a great + deal of error, considerable barbarism and a most plentiful lack of good + sense. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Have you found any other work, sacred or profane, which + you regard as more reliable? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I know of no book less so, in my judgment. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. You have studied the Bible attentively, have you not? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have read the Bible. I have heard it talked about a good + deal, and am sufficiently well acquainted with it to justify my own mind + in utterly rejecting all claims made for its divine origin. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you base your views upon? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. On reason, observation, experience, upon the discoveries in + science, upon observed facts and the analogies properly growing out of + such facts. I have no confidence in anything pretending to be outside, or + independent of, or in any manner above nature. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. According to your views, what disposition is made of man + after death? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Upon that subject I know nothing. It is no more wonderful + that man should live again than he now lives; upon that question I know of + no evidence. The doctrine of immortality rests upon human affection. We + love, therefore we wish to live. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Then you would not undertake to say what becomes of man + after death? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. If I told or pretended to know what becomes of man after + death, I would be as dogmatic as are theologians upon this question. The + difference between them and me is, I am honest. I admit that I do not + know. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Judging by your criticism of mankind, Colonel, in your + recent lecture, you have not found his condition very satisfactory? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Nature, outside of man, so far as I know, is neither cruel + nor merciful. I am not satisfied with the present condition of the human + race, nor with the condition of man during any period of which we have any + knowledge. I believe, however, the condition of man is improved, and this + improvement is due to his own exertions. I do not make nature a being. I + do not ascribe to nature intentions. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is your theory, Colonel, the result of investigation of + the subject? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. No one can control his own opinion or his own belief. My + belief was forced upon me by my surroundings. I am the product of all + circumstances that have in any way touched me. I believe in this world. I + have no confidence in any religion promising joys in another world at the + expense of liberty and happiness in this. At the same time, I wish to give + others all the rights I claim for myself. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. If I asked for proofs for your theory, what would you + furnish? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The experience of every man who is honest with himself, + every fact that has been discovered in nature. In addition to these, the + utter and total failure of all religionists in all countries to produce + one particle of evidence showing the existence of any supernatural power + whatever, and the further fact that the people are not satisfied with + their religion. They are continually asking for evidence. They are asking + it in every imaginable way. The sects are continually dividing. There is + no real religious serenity in the world. All religions are opponents of + intellectual liberty. I believe in absolute mental freedom. Real religion + with me is a thing not of the head, but of the heart; not a theory, not a + creed, but a life. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What punishment, then, is inflicted upon man for his + crimes and wrongs committed in this life? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. There is no such thing as intellectual crime. No man can + commit a mental crime. To become a crime it must go beyond thought. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What punishment is there for physical crime? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Such punishment as is necessary to protect society and for + the reformation of the criminal. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. If there is only punishment in this world, will not some + escape punishment? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I admit that all do not seem to be punished as they + deserve. I also admit that all do not seem to be rewarded as they deserve; + and there is in this world, apparently, as great failures in matter of + reward as in matter of punishment. If there is another life, a man will be + happier there for acting according to his highest ideal in this. But I do + not discern in nature any effort to do justice. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Post</i>, Washington, D. C., 1878. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0003" id="link0003"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + MRS. VAN COTT, THE REVIVALIST + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I see, Colonel, that in an interview published this + morning, Mrs. Van Cott (the revivalist), calls you "a poor barking dog." + Do you know her personally? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have never met or seen her. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you know the reason she applied the epithet? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I suppose it to be the natural result of what is called + vital piety; that is to say, universal love breeds individual hatred. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you intend making any reply to what she says? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have written her a note of which this is a copy: + </p> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + <i>Buffalo, Feb. 24th, 1878.</i> +MRS. VAN COTT; +</pre> + <p> + My dear Madam:—Were you constrained by the love of Christ to call a + man who has never injured you "a poor barking dog?" Did you make this + remark as a Christian, or as a lady? Did you say these words to illustrate + in some faint degree the refining influence upon women of the religion you + preach? + </p> + <p> + What would you think of me if I should retort, using your language, + changing only the sex of the last word? + </p> + <p> + I have the honor to remain, + </p> + <p> + Yours truly, + </p> + <p> + R. G. INGERSOLL + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Well, what do you think of the religious revival system + generally? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The fire that has to be blown all the time is a poor thing + to get warm by. I regard these revivals as essentially barbaric. I think + they do no good, but much harm, they make innocent people think they are + guilty, and very mean people think they are good. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion concerning women as conductors of + these revivals? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I suppose those engaged in them think they are doing good. + They are probably honest. I think, however, that neither men nor women + should be engaged in frightening people into heaven. That is all I wish to + say on the subject, as I do not think it worth talking about. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Express</i>, Buffalo, New York, Feb., 1878. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0004" id="link0004"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + EUROPEAN TRIP AND GREENBACK QUESTION + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. What did you do on your European trip, Colonel? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I went with my family from New York to Southampton, + England, thence to London, and from London to Edinburgh. In Scotland I + visited every place where Burns had lived, from the cottage where he was + born to the room where he died. I followed him from the cradle to the + coffin. I went to Stratford-upon-Avon for the purpose of seeing all that I + could in any way connected with Shakespeare; next to London, where we + visited again all the places of interest, and thence to Paris, where we + spent a couple of weeks in the Exposition. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. And what did you think of it? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. So far as machinery—so far as the practical is + concerned, it is not equal to ours in Philadelphia; in art it is + incomparably beyond it. I was very much gratified to find so much evidence + in favor of my theory that the golden age in art is in front of us; that + mankind has been advancing, that we did not come from a perfect pair and + immediately commence to degenerate. The modern painters and sculptors are + far better and grander than the ancient. I think we excel in fine arts as + much as we do in agricultural implements. Nothing pleased me more than the + painting from Holland, because they idealized and rendered holy the + ordinary avocations of life. They paint cottages with sweet mothers and + children; they paint homes. They are not much on Ariadnes and Venuses, but + they paint good women. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What did you think of the American display? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Our part of the Exposition is good, but nothing to what is + should and might have been, but we bring home nearly as many medals as we + took things. We lead the world in machinery and in ingenious inventions, + and some of our paintings were excellent. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Colonel, crossing the Atlantic back to America, what do + you think of the Greenback movement? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In regard to the Greenback party, in the first place, I am + not a believer in miracles. I do not believe that something can be made + out of nothing. The Government, in my judgment, cannot create money; the + Government can give its note, like an individual, and the prospect of its + being paid determines its value. We have already substantially resumed. + Every piece of property that has been shrinking has simply been resuming. + We expended during the war—not for the useful, but for the useless, + not to build up, but to destroy—at least one thousand million + dollars. The Government was an enormous purchaser; when the war ceased the + industries of the country lost their greatest customer. As a consequence + there was a surplus of production, and consequently a surplus of labor. At + last we have gotten back, and the country since the war has produced over + and above the cost of production, something near the amount that was lost + during the war. Our exports are about two hundred million dollars more + than our imports, and this is a healthy sign. There are, however, five or + six hundred thousand men, probably, out of employment; as prosperity + increases this number will decrease. I am in favor of the Government doing + something to ameliorate the condition of these men. I would like to see + constructed the Northern and Southern Pacific railroads; this would give + employment at once to many thousands, and homes after awhile to millions. + All the signs of the times to me are good. The wretched bankrupt law, at + last, is wiped from the statute books, and honest people in a short time + can get plenty of credit. This law should have been repealed years before + it was. It would have been far better to have had all who have gone into + bankruptcy during these frightful years to have done so at once. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What will be the political effect of the Greenback + movement? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The effect in Maine has been to defeat the Republican + party. I do not believe any party can permanently succeed in the United + States that does not believe in and advocate actual money. I want to see + the greenback equal with gold the world round. A money below par keeps the + people below par. No man can possibly be proud of a country that is not + willing to pay its debts. Several of the States this fall may be carried + by the Greenback party, but if I have a correct understanding of their + views, that party cannot hold any State for any great length of time. But + all the men of wealth should remember that everybody in the community has + got, in some way, to be supported. I want to see them so that they can + support themselves by their own labor. In my judgment real prosperity will + begin with actual resumption, because confidence will then return. If the + workingmen of the United States cannot make their living, cannot have the + opportunity to labor, they have got to be supported in some way, and in + any event, I want to see a liberal policy inaugurated by the Government. I + believe in improving rivers and harbors. + </p> + <p> + I do not believe the trans-continental commerce of this country should + depend on one railroad. I want new territories opened. I want to see + American steamships running to all the great ports of the world. I want to + see our flag flying on all the seas and in all the harbors. We have the + best country, and, in my judgment, the best people in the world, and we + ought to be the most prosperous nation on the earth. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Then you only consider the Greenback movement a temporary + thing? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes; I do not believe that there is anything permanent in + anything that is not sound, that has not a perfectly sound foundation, and + I mean sound, sound in every sense of that word. It must be wise and + honest. We have plenty of money; the trouble is to get it. If the + Greenbackers will pass a law furnishing all of us with collaterals, there + certainly would be no trouble about getting the money. Nothing can + demonstrate more fully the plentifulness of money than the fact that + millions of four per cent. bonds have been taken in the United States. The + trouble is, business is scarce. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. But do you not think the Greenback movement will help the + Democracy to success in 1880? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think the Greenback movement will injure the Republican + party much more than the Democratic party. Whether that injury will reach + as far as 1880 depends simply upon one thing. If resumption—in spite + of all the resolutions to the contrary— inaugurates an era of + prosperity, as I believe and hope it will, then it seems to me that the + Republican party will be as strong in the North as in its palmiest days. + Of course I regard most of the old issues as settled, and I make this + statement simply because I regard the financial issue as the only living + one. + </p> + <p> + Of course, I have no idea who will be the Democratic candidate, but I + suppose the South will be solid for the Democratic nominee, unless the + financial question divides that section of the country. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. With a solid South do you not think the Democratic + nominee will stand a good chance? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Certainly, he will stand the best chance if the Democracy + is right on the financial question; if it will cling to its old idea of + hard money, he will. If the Democrats will recognize that the issues of + the war are settled, then I think that party has the best chance. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. But if it clings to soft money? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Then I think it will be beaten, if by soft money it means + the payment of one promise with another. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. You consider Greenbackers inflationists, do you not? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I suppose the Greenbackers to be the party of inflation. I + am in favor of inflation produced by industry. I am in favor of the + country being inflated with corn, with wheat, good houses, books, + pictures, and plenty of labor for everybody. I am in favor of being + inflated with gold and silver, but I do not believe in the inflation of + promise, expectation and speculation. I sympathize with every man who is + willing to work and cannot get it, and I sympathize to that degree that I + would like to see the fortunate and prosperous taxed to support his + unfortunate brother until labor could be found. + </p> + <p> + The Greenback party seems to think credit is just as good as gold. While + the credit lasts this is so; but the trouble is, whenever it is + ascertained that the gold is gone or cannot be produced the credit takes + wings. The bill of a perfectly solvent bank may circulate for years. Now, + because nobody demands the gold on that bill it doesn't follow that the + bill would be just as good without any gold behind it. The idea that you + can have the gold whenever you present the bill gives it its value. To + illustrate: A poor man buys soup tickets. He is not hungry at the time of + purchase, and will not be for some hours. During those hours the Greenback + gentlemen argue that there is no use of keeping any soup on hand with + which to redeem these tickets, and from this they further argue that if + they can be good for a few hours without soup, why not forever? And they + would be, only the holder gets hungry. Until he is hungry, of course, he + does not care whether any soup is on hand or not, but when he presents his + ticket he wants his soup, and the idea that he can have the soup when he + does present the ticket gives it its value. And so I regard bank notes, + without gold and silver, as of the same value as tickets without soup. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Post</i>, Washington, D. C., 1878. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0005" id="link0005"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE PRE-MILLENNIAL CONFERENCE. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the Pre-Millennial Conference that + was held in New York City recently? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Well, I think that all who attended it were believers in + the Bible, and any one who believes in prophecies and looks to their + fulfillment will go insane. A man that tries from Daniel's ram with three + horns and five tails and his deformed goats to ascertain the date of the + second immigration of Christ to this world is already insane. It all shows + that the moment we leave the realm of fact and law we are adrift on the + wide and shoreless sea of theological speculation. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think there will be a second coming? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. No, not as long as the church is in power. Christ will + never again visit this earth until the Freethinkers have control. He will + certainly never allow another church to get hold of him. The very persons + who met in New York to fix the date of his coming would despise him and + the feeling would probably be mutual. In his day Christ was an Infidel, + and made himself unpopular by denouncing the church as it then existed. He + called them liars, hypocrites, thieves, vipers, whited sepulchres and + fools. From the description given of the church in that day, I am afraid + that should he come again, he would be provoked into using similar + language. Of course, I admit there are many good people in the church, + just as there were some good Pharisees who were opposed to the + crucifixion. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Express</i>, Buffalo, New York, Nov. 4th, 1878. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0006" id="link0006"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE SOLID SOUTH AND RESUMPTION. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Colonel, to start with, what do you think of the solid + South? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think the South is naturally opposed to the Republican + party; more, I imagine, to the name, than to the personnel of the + organization. But the South has just as good friends in the Republican + party as in the Democratic party. I do not think there are any Republicans + who would not rejoice to see the South prosperous and happy. I know of + none, at least. They will have to get over the prejudices born of + isolation. We lack direct and constant communication. I do not recollect + having seen a newspaper from the Gulf States for a long time. They, down + there, may imagine that the feeling in the North is the same as during the + war. But it certainly is not. The Northern people are anxious to be + friendly; and if they can be, without a violation of their principles, + they will be. Whether it be true or not, however, most of the Republicans + of the North believe that no Republican in the South is heartily welcome + in that section, whether he goes there from the North, or is a Southern + man. Personally, I do not care anything about partisan politics. I want to + see every man in the United States guaranteed the right to express his + choice at the ballot-box, and I do not want social ostracism to follow a + man, no matter how he may vote. A solid South means a solid North. A + hundred thousand Democratic majority in South Carolina means fifty + thousand Republican majority in New York in 1880. I hope the sections will + never divide, simply as sections. But if the Republican party is not + allowed to live in the South, the Democratic party certainly will not be + allowed to succeed in the North. I want to treat the people of the South + precisely as though the Rebellion had never occurred. I want all that + wiped from the slate of memory, and all I ask of the Southern people is to + give the same rights to the Republicans that we are willing to give to + them and have given to them. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How do you account for the results of the recent + elections? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The Republican party won the recent election simply because + it was for honest money, and it was in favor of resumption. And if on the + first of January next, we resume all right, and maintain resumption, I see + no reason why the Republican party should not succeed in 1880. The + Republican party came into power at the commencement of the Rebellion, and + necessarily retained power until its close; and in my judgment, it will + retain power so long as in the horizon of credit there is a cloud of + repudiation as large as a man's hand. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think resumption will work out all right? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do. I think that on the first of January the greenback + will shake hands with gold on an equality, and in a few days thereafter + will be worth just a little bit more. Everything has resumed, except the + Government. All the property has resumed, all the lands, bonds and + mortgages and stocks. All these things resumed long ago—that is to + say, they have touched the bottom. Now, there is no doubt that the party + that insists on the Government paying all its debts will hold control, and + no one will get his hand on the wheel who advocates repudiation in any + form. There is one thing we must do, though. We have got to put more + silver in our dollars. I do not think you can blame the New York banks—any + bank —for refusing to take eighty-eight cents for a dollar. Neither + can you blame any depositor who puts gold in the bank for demanding gold + in return. Yes, we must have in the silver dollar a dollar's worth of + silver. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Commercial</i>, Cincinnati, Ohio, November, 1878. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0007" id="link0007"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE SUNDAY LAWS OF PITTSBURG.* + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Colonel, what do you think of the course the Mayor has + pursued toward you in attempting to stop your lecture? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I know very little except what I have seen in the morning + paper. As a general rule, laws should be enforced or repealed; and so far + as I am personally concerned, I shall not so much complain of the + enforcing of the law against Sabbath breaking as of the fact that such a + law exists. We have fallen heir to these laws. They were passed by + superstition, and the enlightened people of to-day should repeal them. + Ministers should not expect to fill their churches by shutting up other + places. They can only increase their congregations by improving their + sermons. They will have more hearers when they say more worth hearing. I + have no idea that the Mayor has any prejudice against me personally and if + he only enforces the law, I shall have none against him. If my lectures + were free the ministers might have the right to object, but as I charge + one dollar admission and they nothing, they ought certainly be able to + compete with me. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Don't you think it is the duty of the Mayor, as chief + executive of the city laws, to enforce the ordinances and pay no attention + to what the statutes say? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I suppose it to be the duty of the Mayor to enforce the + ordinance of the city and if the ordinance of the city covers the same + ground as the law of the State, a conviction under the ordinance would be + a bar to prosecution under the State law. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. If the ordinance exempts scientific, literary and + historical lectures, as it is said it does, will not that exempt you? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, all my lectures are historical; that is, I speak of + many things that have happened. They are scientific because they are + filled with facts, and they are literary of course. I can conceive of no + address that is neither historical nor scientific, except sermons. They + fail to be historical because they treat of things that never happened and + they are certainly not scientific, as they contain no facts. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Suppose they arrest you what will you do? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I will examine the law and if convicted will pay the fine, + unless I think I can reverse the case by appeal. Of course I would like to + see all these foolish laws wiped from the statute books. I want the law so + that everybody can do just as he pleases on Sunday, provided he does not + interfere with the rights of others. I want the Christian, the Jew, the + Deist and the Atheist to be exactly equal before the law. I would fight + for the right of the Christian to worship God in his own way just as quick + as I would for the Atheist to enjoy music, flowers and fields. I hope to + see the time when even the poor people can hear the music of the finest + operas on Sunday. One grand opera with all its thrilling tones, will do + more good in touching and elevating the world than ten thousand sermons on + the agonies of hell. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Have you ever been interfered with before in delivering + Sunday lectures? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. No, I postponed a lecture in Baltimore at the request of + the owners of a theatre because they were afraid some action might be + taken. That is the only case. I have delivered lectures on Sunday in the + principal cities of the United States, in New York, Boston, Buffalo, + Chicago, San Francisco, Cincinnati and many other places. I lectured here + last winter; it was on Sunday and I heard nothing of its being contrary to + law. I always supposed my lectures were good enough to be delivered on the + most sacred days. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Leader</i>, Pittsburg, Pa., October 27, 1879. + </p> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + [* The manager of the theatre, where Col. Ingersoll + lectured, was fined fifty dollars which Col. Ingersoll + paid.] +</pre> + <p> + <a name="link0008" id="link0008"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think about the recent election, and what + will be its effect upon political matters and the issues and candidates of + 1880? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think the Republicans have met with this almost universal + success on account, first, of the position taken by the Democracy on the + currency question; that is to say, that party was divided, and was willing + to go in partnership with anybody, whatever their doctrines might be, for + the sake of success in that particular locality. The Republican party felt + it of paramount importance not only to pay the debt, but to pay it in that + which the world regards as money. The next reason for the victory is the + position assumed by the Democracy in Congress during the called session. + The threats they then made of what they would do in the event that the + executive did not comply with their demands, showed that the spirit of the + party had not been chastened to any considerable extent by the late war. + The people of this country will not, in my judgment, allow the South to + take charge of this country until they show their ability to protect the + rights of citizens in their respective States. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Then, as you regard the victories, they are largely due + to a firm adherence to principle, and the failure of the Democratic party + is due to their abandonment of principle, and their desire to unite with + anybody and everything, at the sacrifice of principle, to attain success? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes. The Democratic party is a general desire for office + without organization. Most people are Democrats because they hate + something, most people are Republicans because they love something. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think the election has brought about any + particular change in the issues that will be involved in the campaign of + 1880? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think the only issue is who shall rule the country. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think, then, the question of State Rights, hard or + soft money and other questions that have been prominent in the campaign + are practically settled, and so regarded by the people? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think the money question is, absolutely. I think the + question of State Rights is dead, except that it can still be used to + defeat the Democracy. It is what might be called a convenient political + corpse. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Now, to leave the political field and go to the religious + at one jump—since your last visit here much has been said and + written and published to the effect that a great change, or a considerable + change at least, had taken place in your religious, or irreligious views. + I would like to know if that is so? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The only change that has occurred in my religious views is + the result of finding more and more arguments in favor of my position, + and, as a consequence, if there is any difference, I am stronger in my + convictions than ever before. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I would like to know something of the history of your + religious views? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I may say right here that the Christian idea that any God + can make me his friend by killing mine is about a great mistake as could + be made. They seem to have the idea that just as soon as God kills all the + people that a person loves, he will then begin to love the Lord. What drew + my attention first to these questions was the doctrine of eternal + punishment. This was so abhorrent to my mind that I began to hate the book + in which it was taught. Then, in reading law, going back to find the + origin of laws, I found one had to go but a little way before the + legislator and priest united. This led me to a study of a good many of the + religions of the world. At first I was greatly astonished to find most of + them better than ours. I then studied our own system to the best of my + ability, and found that people were palming off upon children and upon one + another as the inspired word of God a book that upheld slavery, polygamy + and almost every other crime. Whether I am right or wrong, I became + convinced that the Bible is not an inspired book; and then the only + question for me to settle was as to whether I should say what I believed + or not. This really was not the question in my mind, because, before even + thinking of such a question, I expressed my belief, and I simply claim + that right and expect to exercise it as long as I live. I may be damned + for it in the next world, but it is a great source of pleasure to me in + this. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. It is reported that you are the son of a Presbyterian + minister? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, I am the son of a New School Presbyterian minister. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. About what age were you when you began this investigation + which led to your present convictions? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I cannot remember when I believed the Bible doctrine of + eternal punishment. I have a dim recollection of hating Jehovah when I was + exceedingly small. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Then your present convictions began to form themselves + while you were listening to the teachings of religion as taught by your + father? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, they did. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Did you discuss the matter with him? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I did for many years, and before he died he utterly gave up + the idea that this life is a period of probation. He utterly gave up the + idea of eternal punishment, and before he died he had the happiness of + believing that God was almost as good and generous as he was himself. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I suppose this gossip about a change in your religious + views arose or was created by the expression used at your brother's + funeral, "In the night of death hope sees a star and listening love can + hear the rustle of a wing"? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I never willingly will destroy a solitary human hope. I + have always said that I did not know whether man was or was not immortal, + but years before my brother died, in a lecture entitled "The Ghosts," + which has since been published, I used the following words: "The idea of + immortality, that like a sea has ebbed and flowed in the human heart, with + its countless waves of hope and fear, beating against the shores and rocks + of time and fate, was not born of any book, nor of any creed, nor of any + religion. It was born of human affection, and it will continue to ebb and + flow beneath the mists and clouds of doubt and darkness as long as love + kisses the lips of death. It is the rainbow—Hope, shining upon the + tears of grief." + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. The great objection to your teaching urged by your + enemies is that you constantly tear down, and never build up? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have just published a little book entitled, "Some + Mistakes of Moses," in which I have endeavored to give most of the + arguments I have urged against the Pentateuch in a lecture I delivered + under that title. The motto on the title page is, "A destroyer of weeds, + thistles and thorns is a benefactor, whether he soweth grain or not." I + cannot for my life see why one should be charged with tearing down and not + rebuilding simply because he exposes a sham, or detects a lie. I do not + feel under any obligation to build something in the place of a detected + falsehood. All I think I am under obligation to put in the place of a + detected lie is the detection. Most religionists talk as if mistakes were + valuable things and they did not wish to part with them without a + consideration. Just how much they regard lies worth a dozen I do not know. + If the price is reasonable I am perfectly willing to give it, rather than + to see them live and give their lives to the defence of delusions. I am + firmly convinced that to be happy here will not in the least detract from + our happiness in another world should we be so fortunate as to reach + another world; and I cannot see the value of any philosophy that reaches + beyond the intelligent happiness of the present. There may be a God who + will make us happy in another world. If he does, it will be more than he + has accomplished in this. I suppose that he will never have more than + infinite power and never have less than infinite wisdom, and why people + should expect that he should do better in another world than he has in + this is something that I have never been able to explain. A being who has + the power to prevent it and yet who allows thousands and millions of his + children to starve; who devours them with earthquakes; who allows whole + nations to be enslaved, cannot in my judgment be implicitly be depended + upon to do justice in another world. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How do the clergy generally treat you? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Well, of course there are the same distinctions among + clergymen as among other people. Some of them are quite respectable + gentlemen, especially those with whom I am not acquainted. I think that + since the loss of my brother nothing could exceed the heartlessness of the + remarks made by the average clergyman. There have been some noble + exceptions, to whom I feel not only thankful but grateful; but a very + large majority have taken this occasion to say most unfeeling and brutal + things. I do not ask the clergy to forgive me, but I do request that they + will so act that I will not have to forgive them. I have always insisted + that those who love their enemies should at least tell the truth about + their friends, but I suppose, after all, that religion must be supported + by the same means as those by which it was founded. Of course, there are + thousands of good ministers, men who are endeavoring to make the world + better, and whose failure is no particular fault of their own. I have + always been in doubt as to whether the clergy were a necessary or an + unnecessary evil. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I would like to have a positive expression of your views + as to a future state? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Somebody asked Confucius about another world, and his reply + was: "How should I know anything about another world when I know so little + of this?" For my part, I know nothing of any other state of existence, + either before or after this, and I have never become personally acquainted + with anybody that did. There may be another life, and if there is, the + best way to prepare for it is by making somebody happy in this. God + certainly cannot afford to put a man in hell who has made a little heaven + in this world. I propose simply to take my chances with the rest of the + folks, and prepare to go where the people I am best acquainted with will + probably settle. I cannot afford to leave the great ship and sneak off to + shore in some orthodox canoe. I hope there is another life, for I would + like to see how things come out in the world when I am dead. There are + some people I would like to see again, and hope there are some who would + not object to seeing me; but if there is no other life I shall never know + it. I do not remember a time when I did not exist; and if, when I die, + that is the end, I shall not know it, because the last thing I shall know + is that I am alive, and if nothing is left, nothing will be left to know + that I am dead; so that so far as I am concerned I am immortal; that is to + say, I cannot recollect when I did not exist, and there never will be a + time when I shall remember that I do not exist. I would like to have + several millions of dollars, and I may say that I have a lively hope that + some day I may be rich, but to tell you the truth I have very little + evidence of it. Our hope of immortality does not come from any religion, + but nearly all religions come from that hope. The Old Testament, instead + of telling us that we are immortal, tells us how we lost immortality. You + will recollect that if Adam and Eve could have gotten to the Tree of Life, + they would have eaten of its fruit and would have lived forever; but for + the purpose of preventing immortality God turned them out of the Garden of + Eden, and put certain angels with swords or sabres at the gate to keep + them from getting back. The Old Testament proves, if it proves anything—which + I do not think it does—that there is no life after this; and the New + Testament is not very specific on the subject. There were a great many + opportunities for the Saviour and his apostles to tell us about another + world, but they did not improve them to any great extent; and the only + evidence, so far as I know, about another life is, first, that we have no + evidence; and, secondly, that we are rather sorry that we have not, and + wish we had. That is about my position. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. According to your observation of men, and your reading in + relation to the men and women of the world and of the church, if there is + another world divided according to orthodox principles between the + orthodox and heterodox, which of the two that are known as heaven and hell + would contain, in your judgment, the most good society? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Since hanging has got to be a means of grace, I would + prefer hell. I had a thousand times rather associate with the Pagan + philosophers than with the inquisitors of the Middle Ages. I certainly + should prefer the worst man in Greek or Roman history to John Calvin; and + I can imagine no man in the world that I would not rather sit on the same + bench with than the Puritan fathers and the founders of orthodox churches. + I would trade off my harp any minute for a seat in the other country. All + the poets will be in perdition, and the greatest thinkers, and, I should + think, most of the women whose society would tend to increase the + happiness of man; nearly all the painters, nearly all the sculptors, + nearly all the writers of plays, nearly all the great actors, most of the + best musicians, and nearly all the good fellows—the persons who know + stories, who can sing songs, or who will loan a friend a dollar. They will + mostly all be in that country, and if I did not live there permanently, I + certainly would want it so I could spend my winter months there. But, + after all, what I really want to do is to destroy the idea of eternal + punishment. That doctrine subverts all ideas of justice. That doctrine + fills hell with honest men, and heaven with intellectual and moral + paupers. That doctrine allows people to sin on credit. That doctrine + allows the basest to be eternally happy and the most honorable to suffer + eternal pain. I think of all doctrines it is the most infinitely infamous, + and would disgrace the lowest savage; and any man who believes it, and has + imagination enough to understand it, has the heart of a serpent and the + conscience of a hyena. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Your objective point is to destroy the doctrine of hell, + is it? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, because the destruction of that doctrine will do away + with all cant and all pretence. It will do away with all religious bigotry + and persecution. It will allow every man to think and to express his + thought. It will do away with bigotry in all its slimy and offensive + forms. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Chicago Tribune</i>, November 14, 1879. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0009" id="link0009"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + POLITICS AND GEN. GRANT + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Some people have made comparisons between the late + Senators O. P. Morton and Zach. Chandler. What did you think of them, + Colonel? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think Morton had the best intellectual grasp of a + question of any man I ever saw. There was an infinite difference between + the two men. Morton's strength lay in proving a thing; Chandler's in + asserting it. But Chandler was a strong man and no hypocrite. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Have you any objection to being interviewed as to your + ideas of Grant, and his position before the people? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have no reason for withholding my views on that or any + other subject that is under public discussion. My idea is that Grant can + afford to regard the presidency as a broken toy. It would add nothing to + his fame if he were again elected, and would add nothing to the debt of + gratitude which the people feel they owe him. I do not think he will be a + candidate. I do not think he wants it. There are men who are pushing him + on their own account. Grant was a great soldier. He won the respect of the + civilized world. He commanded the largest army that ever fought for + freedom, and to make him President would not add a solitary leaf to the + wreath of fame already on his brow; and should he be elected, the only + thing he could do would be to keep the old wreath from fading. + </p> + <p> + I do not think his reputation can ever be as great in any direction as in + the direction of war. He has made his reputation and has lived his great + life. I regard him, confessedly, as the best soldier the Anglo-Saxon blood + has produced. I do not know that it necessarily follows because he is a + great soldier he is great in other directions. Probably some of the + greatest statesmen in the world would have been the worst soldiers. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you regard him as more popular now than ever before? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think that his reputation is certainly greater and higher + than when he left the presidency, and mainly because he has represented + this country with so much discretion and with such quiet, poised dignity + all around the world. He has measured himself with kings, and was able to + look over the heads of every one of them. They were not quite as tall as + he was, even adding the crown to their original height. I think he + represented us abroad with wonderful success. One thing that touched me + very much was, that at a reception given him by the workingmen of + Birmingham, after he had been received by royalty, he had the courage to + say that that reception gave him more pleasure than any other. He has been + throughout perfectly true to the genius of our institutions, and has not + upon any occasion exhibited the slightest toadyism. Grant is a man who is + not greatly affected by either flattery or abuse. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you believe to be his position in regard to the + presidency? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. My own judgment is that he does not care. I do not think he + has any enemies to punish, and I think that while he was President he + certainly rewarded most of his friends. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What are your views as to a third term? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have no objection to a third term on principle, but so + many men want the presidency that it seems almost cruel to give a third + term to anyone. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Then, if there is no objection to a third term, what + about a fourth? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not know that that could be objected to, either. We + have to admit, after all, that the American people, or at least a majority + of them, have a right to elect one man as often as they please. + Personally, I think it should not be done unless in the case of a man who + is prominent above the rest of his fellow-citizens, and whose election + appears absolutely necessary. But I frankly confess I cannot conceive of + any political situation where one man is a necessity. I do not believe in + the one-man-on-horseback idea, because I believe in all the people being + on horseback. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What will be the effect of the enthusiastic receptions + that are being given to General Grant? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think these ovations show that the people are resolved + not to lose the results of the great victories of the war, and that they + make known this determination by their attention to General Grant. I think + that if he goes through the principal cities of this country the old + spirit will be revived everywhere, and whether it makes him President or + not the result will be to make the election go Republican. The revival of + the memories of the war will bring the people of the North together as + closely as at any time since that great conflict closed, not in the spirit + of hatred, or malice or envy, but in generous emulation to preserve that + which was fairly won. I do not think there is any hatred about it, but we + are beginning to see that we must save the South ourselves, and that that + is the only way we can save the nation. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. But suppose they give the same receptions in the South? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. So much the better. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is there any split in the solid South? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Some of the very best people in the South are apparently + disgusted with following the Democracy any longer, and would hail with + delight any opportunity they could reasonably take advantage of to leave + the organization, if they could do so without making it appear that they + were going back on Southern interests, and this opportunity will come when + the South becomes enlightened, and sees that it has no interests except in + common with the whole country. That I think they are beginning to see. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How do you like the administration of President Hayes? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think its attitude has greatly improved of late. There + are certain games of cards—pedro, for instance, where you can not + only fail to make something, but be set back. I think that Hayes's veto + messages very nearly got him back to the commencement of the game—that + he is now almost ready to commence counting, and make some points. His + position before the country has greatly improved, but he will not develop + into a dark horse. My preference is, of course, still for Blaine. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Where do you think it is necessary the Republican + candidate should come from to insure success? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Somewhere out of Ohio. I think it will go to Maine, and for + this reason: First of all, Blaine is certainly a competent man of affairs, + a man who knows what to do at the time; and then he has acted in such a + chivalric way ever since the convention at Cincinnati, that those who + opposed him most bitterly, now have for him nothing but admiration. I + think John Sherman is a man of decided ability, but I do not believe the + American people would make one brother President, while the other is + General of the Army. It would be giving too much power to one family. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What are your conclusions as to the future of the + Democratic party? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think the Democratic party ought to disband. I think they + would be a great deal stronger disbanded, because they would get rid of + their reputation without decreasing. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. But if they will not disband? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Then the next campaign depends undoubtedly upon New York + and Indiana. I do not see how they can very well help nominating a man + from Indiana, and by that I mean Hendricks. You see the South has one + hundred and thirty-eight votes, all supposed to be Democratic; with the + thirty-five from New York and fifteen from Indiana they would have just + three to spare. Now, I take it, that the fifteen from Indiana are just + about as essential as the thirty- five from New York. To lack fifteen + votes is nearly as bad as being thirty-five short, and so far as drawing + salary is concerned it is quite as bad. Mr. Hendricks ought to know that + he holds the key to Indiana, and that there cannot be any possibility of + carrying this State for Democracy without him. He has tried running for + the vice-presidency, which is not much of a place anyhow—I would + about as soon be vice-mother-in-law—and my judgment is that he knows + exactly the value of his geographical position. New York is divided to + that degree that it would be unsafe to take a candidate from that State; + and besides, New York has become famous for furnishing defeated candidates + for the Democracy. I think the man must come from Indiana. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Would the Democracy of New York unite on Seymour? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. You recollect what Lincoln said about the powder that had + been shot off once. I do not remember any man who has once made a race for + the presidency and been defeated ever being again nominated. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What about Bayard and Hancock as candidates? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not see how Bayard could possibly carry Indiana, while + his own State is too small and too solidly Democratic. My idea of Bayard + is that he has not been good enough to be popular, and not bad enough to + be famous. The American people will never elect a President from a State + with a whipping-post. As to General Hancock, you may set it down as + certain that the South will never lend their aid to elect a man who helped + to put down the Rebellion. It would be just the same as the effort to + elect Greeley. It cannot be done. I see, by the way, that I am reported as + having said that David Davis, as the Democratic candidate, could carry + Illinois. I did say that in 1876, he could have carried it against Hayes; + but whether he could carry Illinois in 1880 would depend altogether upon + who runs against him. The condition of things has changed greatly in our + favor since 1876. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Journal</i>, Indianapolis, Ind., November, 1879. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0010" id="link0010"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + POLITICS, RELIGION AND THOMAS PAINE. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. You have traveled about this State more or less, lately, + and have, of course, observed political affairs here. Do you think that + Senator Logan will be able to deliver this State to the Grant movement + according to the understood plan? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. If the State is really for Grant, he will, and if it is + not, he will not. Illinois is as little "owned" as any State in this + Union. Illinois would naturally be for Grant, other things being equal, + because he is regarded as a citizen of this State, and it is very hard for + a State to give up the patronage naturally growing out of the fact that + the President comes from that State. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Will the instructions given to delegates be final? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not think they will be considered final at all; + neither do I think they will be considered of any force. It was decided at + the last convention, in Cincinnati, that the delegates had a right to vote + as they pleased; that each delegate represented the district of the State + that sent him. The idea that a State convention can instruct them as + against the wishes of their constituents smacks a little too much of State + sovereignty. The President should be nominated by the districts of the + whole country, and not by massing the votes by a little chicanery at a + State convention, and every delegate ought to vote what he really believes + to be the sentiment of his constituents, irrespective of what the State + convention may order him to do. He is not responsible to the State + convention, and it is none of the State convention's business. This does + not apply, it may be, to the delegates at large, but to all the others it + certainly must apply. It was so decided at the Cincinnati convention, and + decided on a question arising about this same Pennsylvania delegation. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Can you guess as to what the platform in going to + contain? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I suppose it will be a substantial copy of the old one. I + am satisfied with the old one with one addition. I want a plank to the + effect that no man shall be deprived of any civil or political right on + account of his religious or irreligious opinions. The Republican party + having been foremost in freeing the body ought to do just a little + something now for the mind. After having wasted rivers of blood and + treasure uncounted, and almost uncountable, to free the cage, I propose + that something ought to be done for the bird. Every decent man in the + United States would support that plank. People should have a right to + testify in courts, whatever their opinions may be, on any subject. Justice + should not shut any door leading to truth, and as long as just views + neither affect a man's eyesight or his memory, he should be allowed to + tell his story. And there are two sides to this question, too. The man is + not only deprived of his testimony, but the commonwealth is deprived of + it. There should be no religious test in this country for office; and if + Jehovah cannot support his religion without going into partnership with a + State Legislature, I think he ought to give it up. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is there anything new about religion since you were last + here? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Since I was here I have spoken in a great many cities, and + to-morrow I am going to do some missionary work at Milwaukee. Many who + have come to scoff have remained to pray, and I think that my labors are + being greatly blessed, and all attacks on me so far have been overruled + for good. I happened to come in contact with a revival of religion, and I + believe what they call an "outpouring" at Detroit, under the leadership of + a gentleman by the name of Pentecost. He denounced me as God's greatest + enemy. I had always supposed that the Devil occupied that exalted + position, but it seems that I have, in some way, fallen heir to his shoes. + Mr. Pentecost also denounced all business men who would allow any + advertisements or lithographs of mine to hang in their places of business, + and several of these gentlemen thus appealed to took the advertisements + away. The result of all this was that I had the largest house that ever + attended a lecture in Detroit. Feeling that ingratitude is a crime, I + publicly returned thanks to the clergy for the pains they had taken to + give me an audience. And I may say, in this connection, that if the + ministers do God as little good as they do me harm, they had better let + both of us alone. I regard them as very good, but exceedingly mistaken + men. They do not come much in contact with the world, and get most of + their views by talking with the women and children of their congregations. + They are not permitted to mingle freely with society. They cannot attend + plays nor hear operas. I believe some of them have ventured to minstrel + shows and menageries, where they confine themselves strictly to the animal + part of the entertainment. But, as a rule, they have very few + opportunities of ascertaining what the real public opinion is. They read + religious papers, edited by gentlemen who know as little about the world + as themselves, and the result of all this is that they are rather behind + the times. They are good men, and would like to do right if they only knew + it, but they are a little behind the times. There is an old story told of + a fellow who had a post-office in a small town in North Carolina, and he + being the only man in the town who could read, a few people used to gather + in the post-office on Sunday, and he would read to them a weekly paper + that was published in Washington. He commenced always at the top of the + first column and read right straight through, articles, advertisements, + and all, and whenever they got a little tired of reading he would make a + mark of red ochre and commence at that place the next Sunday. The result + was that the papers came a great deal faster than he read them, and it was + about 1817 when they struck the war of 1812. The moment they got to that, + every one of them jumped up and offered to volunteer. All of which shows + that they were patriotic people, but a little show, and somewhat behind + the times. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How were you pleased with the Paine meeting here, and its + results? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I was gratified to see so many people willing at last to do + justice to a great and a maligned man. Of course I do not claim that Paine + was perfect. All I claim is that he was a patriot and a political + philosopher; that he was a revolutionist and an agitator; that he was + infinitely full of suggestive thought, and that he did more than any man + to convince the people of American not only that they ought to separate + from Great Britain, but that they ought to found a representative + government. He has been despised simply because he did not believe the + Bible. I wish to do what I can to rescue his name from theological + defamation. I think the day has come when Thomas Paine will be remembered + with Washington, Franklin and Jefferson, and that the American people will + wonder that their fathers could have been guilty of such base ingratitude. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Chicago Times</i>, February 8, 1880. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0011" id="link0011"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + REPLY TO CHICAGO CRITICS. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Have you read the replies of the clergy to your recent + lecture in this city on "What Must we do to be Saved?" and if so what do + you think of them? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think they dodge the point. The real point is this: If + salvation by faith is the real doctrine of Christianity, I asked on Sunday + before last, and I still ask, why didn't Matthew tell it? I still insist + that Mark should have remembered it, and I shall always believe that Luke + ought, at least, to have noticed it. I was endeavoring to show that modern + Christianity has for its basis an interpolation. I think I showed it. The + only gospel on the orthodox side is that of John, and that was certainly + not written, or did not appear in its present form, until long after the + others were written. + </p> + <p> + I know very well that the Catholic Church claimed during the Dark Ages, + and still claims, that references had been made to the gospels by persons + living in the first, second, and third centuries; but I believe such + manuscripts were manufactured by the Catholic Church. For many years in + Europe there was not one person in twenty thousand who could read and + write. During that time the church had in its keeping the literature of + our world. They interpolated as they pleased. They created. They + destroyed. In other words, they did whatever in their opinion was + necessary to substantiate the faith. + </p> + <p> + The gentlemen who saw fit to reply did not answer the question, and I + again call upon the clergy to explain to the people why, if salvation + depends upon belief on the Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew didn't mention it. + Some one has said that Christ didn't make known this doctrine of salvation + by belief or faith until after his resurrection. Certainly none of the + gospels were written until after his resurrection; and if he made that + doctrine known after his resurrection, and before his ascension, it should + have been in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, as well as in John. + </p> + <p> + The replies of the clergy show that they have not investigated the + subject; that they are not well acquainted with the New Testament. In + other words, they have not read it except with the regulation theological + bias. + </p> + <p> + There is one thing I wish to correct here. In an editorial in the <i>Tribune</i> + it was stated that I had admitted that Christ was beyond and above Buddha, + Zoroaster, Confucius, and others. I did not say so. Another point was made + against me, and those who made it seemed to think it was a good one. In my + lecture I asked why it was that the disciples of Christ wrote in Greek, + whereas, if fact, they understood only Hebrew. It is now claimed that + Greek was the language of Jerusalem at that time; that Hebrew had fallen + into disuse; that no one understood it except the literati and the highly + educated. If I fell into an error upon this point it was because I relied + upon the New Testament. I find in the twenty-first chapter of the Acts an + account of Paul having been mobbed in the city of Jerusalem; that he was + protected by a chief captain and some soldiers; that, while upon the + stairs of the castle to which he was being taken for protection, he + obtained leave from the captain to speak unto the people. In the fortieth + verse of that chapter I find the following: + </p> + <p> + "And when he had given him license, Paul stood on the stairs and beckoned + with the hand unto the people. And when there was made a great silence, he + spake unto them in the Hebrew tongue, saying," + </p> + <p> + And then follows the speech of Paul, wherein he gives an account of his + conversion. It seems a little curious to me that Paul, for the purpose of + quieting a mob, would speak to that mob in an unknown language. If I were + mobbed in the city of Chicago, and wished to defend myself with an + explanation, I certainly would not make that explanation in Choctaw, even + if I understood that tongue. My present opinion is that I would speak in + English; and the reason I would speak in English is because that language + is generally understood in this city, and so I conclude from the account + in the twenty-first chapter of the Acts that Hebrew was the language of + Jerusalem at that time, or Paul would not have addressed the mob in that + tongue. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Did you read Mr. Courtney's answer? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I read what Mr. Courtney read from others, and think some + of his quotations very good; and have no doubt that the authors will feel + complimented by being quoted. There certainly is no need of my answering + Dr. Courtney; sometime I may answer the French gentlemen from whom he + quoted. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. But what about there being "belief" in Matthew? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Mr. Courtney says that certain people were cured of + diseases on account of faith. Admitting that mumps, measles, and + whooping-cough could be cured in that way, there is not even a suggestion + that salvation depended upon a like faith. I think he can hardly afford to + rely upon the miracles of the New Testament to prove his doctrine. There + is one instance in which a miracle was performed by Christ without his + knowledge; and I hardly think that even Mr. Courtney would insist that any + faith could have been great enough for that. The fact is, I believe that + all these miracles were ascribed to Christ long after his death, and that + Christ never, at any time or place, pretended to have any supernatural + power whatever. Neither do I believe that he claimed any supernatural + origin. He claimed simply to be a man; no less, no more. I do not believe + Mr. Courtney is satisfied with his own reply. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. And now as to Prof. Swing? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Mr. Swing has been out of the orthodox church so long that + he seems to have forgotten the reasons for which he left it. I do not + believe there is an orthodox minister in the city of Chicago who will + agree with Mr. Swing that salvation by faith is no longer preached. Prof. + Swing seems to think it of no importance who wrote the gospel of Matthew. + In this I agree with him. Judging from what he said there is hardly + difference enough of opinion between us to justify a reply on his part. + He, however, makes one mistake. I did not in the lecture say one word + about tearing down churches. I have no objection to people building all + the churches they wish. While I admit it is a pretty sight to see children + on a morning in June going through the fields to the country church, I + still insist that the beauty of that sight does not answer the question + how it is that Matthew forgot to say anything about salvation through + Christ. Prof. Swing is a man of poetic temperament, but this is not a + poetic question. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How did the card of Dr. Thomas strike you? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think the reply of Dr. Thomas is in the best possible + spirit. I regard him to-day as the best intellect in the Methodist + denomination. He seems to have what is generally understood as a Christian + spirit. He has always treated me with perfect fairness, and I should have + said long ago many grateful things, had I not feared I might hurt him with + his own people. He seems to be by nature a perfectly fair man; and I know + of no man in the United States for whom I have a profounder respect. Of + course, I don't agree with Dr. Thomas. I think in many things he is + mistaken. But I believe him to be perfectly sincere. There is one trouble + about him—he is growing; and this fact will no doubt give great + trouble to many of his brethren. Certain Methodist hazel-brush feel a + little uneasy in the shadow of this oak. To see the difference between him + and some others, all that is necessary is to read his reply, and then read + the remarks made at the Methodist ministers' meeting on the Monday + following. Compared with Dr. Thomas, they are as puddles by the sea. There + is the same difference that there is between sewers and rivers, cesspools + and springs. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What have you to say to the remarks of the Rev. Dr. + Jewett before the Methodist ministers' meeting? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think Dr. Jewett is extremely foolish. I did not say that + I would commence suit against a minister for libel. I can hardly conceive + of a proceeding that would be less liable to produce a dividend. The fact + about it is, that the Rev. Mr. Jewett seems to think anything true that he + hears against me. Mr. Jewett is probably ashamed of what he said by this + time. He must have known it to be entirely false. It seems to me by this + time even the most bigoted should lose their confidence in falsehood. Of + course there are times when a falsehood well told bridges over quite a + difficulty, but in the long run you had better tell the truth, even if you + swim the creek. I am astonished that these ministers were willing to + exhibit their wounds to the world. I supposed of course I would hit some, + but I had no idea of wounding so many. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Mr. Crafts stated that you were in the habit of swearing + in company and before your family? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I often swear. In other words, I take the name of God in + vain; that is to say, I take it without any practical thing resulting from + it, and in that sense I think most ministers are guilty of the same thing. + I heard an old story of a clergyman who rebuked a neighbor for swearing, + to whom the neighbor replied, "You pray and I swear, but as a matter of + fact neither of us means anything by it." As to the charge that I am in + the habit of using indecent language in my family, no reply is needed. I + am willing to leave that question to the people who know us both. Mr. + Crafts says he was told this by a lady. This cannot by any possibility be + true, for no lady will tell a falsehood. Besides, if this woman of whom he + speaks was a lady, how did she happen to stay where obscene language was + being used? No lady ever told Mr. Crafts any such thing. It may be that a + lady did tell him that I used profane language. I admit that I have not + always spoken of the Devil in a respectful way; that I have sometimes + referred to his residence when it was not a necessary part of the + conversation, and that a divers times I have used a good deal of the + terminology of the theologian when the exact words of the scientist might + have done as well. But if by swearing is meant the use of God's name in + vain, there are very few preachers who do not swear more than I do, if by + "in vain" is meant without any practical result. I leave Mr. Crafts to + cultivate the acquaintance of the unknown lady, knowing as I do, that + after they have talked this matter over again they will find that both + have been mistaken. + </p> + <p> + I sincerely regret that clergymen who really believe that an infinite God + is on their side think it necessary to resort to such things to defeat one + man. According to their idea, God is against me, and they ought to have + confidence in this infinite wisdom and strength to suppose that he could + dispose of one man, even if they failed to say a word against me. Had you + not asked me I should have said nothing to you on these topics. Such + charges cannot hurt me. I do not believe it possible for such men to + injure me. No one believes what they say, and the testimony of such + clergymen against an Infidel is no longer considered of value. I believe + it was Goethe who said, "I always know that I am traveling when I hear the + dogs bark." + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are you going to make a formal reply to their sermons? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Not unless something better is done than has been. Of + course, I don't know what another Sabbath may bring forth. I am waiting. + But of one thing I feel perfectly assured; that no man in the United + States, or in the world, can account for the fact, if we are to be saved + only by faith in Christ, that Matthew forgot it, that Luke said nothing + about it, and that Mark never mentioned it except in two passages written + by <i>another</i> person. Until that is answered, as one grave-digger says + to the other in "Hamlet," I shall say, "Ay, tell me that and unyoke." In + the meantime I wish to keep on the best terms with all parties concerned. + I cannot see why my forgiving spirit fails to gain their sincere praise. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Chicago Tribune</i>, September 30, 1880. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0012" id="link0012"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE REPUBLICAN VICTORY. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you really think, Colonel, that the country has just + passed through a crisis? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes; there was a crisis and a great one. The question was + whether a Northern or Southern idea of the powers and duties of the + Federal Government was to prevail. The great victory of yesterday means + that the Rebellion was not put down on the field of war alone, but that we + have conquered in the realm of thought. The bayonet has been justified by + argument. No party can ever succeed in this country that even whispers + "State Sovereignty." That doctrine has become odious. The sovereignty of + the State means a Government without power, and citizens without + protection. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Can you see any further significance in the present + Republican victory other than that the people do not wish to change the + general policy of the present administration? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes; the people have concluded that the lips of America + shall be free. There never was free speech at the South, and there never + will be until the people of that section admit that the Nation is superior + to the State, and that all citizens have equal rights. I know of hundreds + who voted the Republican ticket because they regarded the South as hostile + to free speech. The people were satisfied with the financial policy of the + Republicans, and they feared a change. The North wants honest money—gold + and silver. The people are in favor of honest votes, and they feared the + practices of the Democratic party. The tissue ballot and shotgun policy + made them hesitate to put power in the hands of the South. Besides, the + tariff question made thousands and thousands of votes. As long as Europe + has slave labor, and wherever kings and priests rule, the laborer will be + substantially a slave. We must protect ourselves. If the world were free, + trade would be free, and the seas would be the free highways of the world. + The great objects of the Republican party are to preserve all the liberty + we have, protect American labor, and to make it the undisputed duty of the + Government to protect every citizen at home and abroad. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think was the main cause of the Republican + sweep? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The wisdom of the Republicans and the mistakes of the + Democrats. The Democratic party has for twenty years underrated the + intelligence, the patriotism and the honesty of the American people. That + party has always looked upon politics as a trade, and success as the last + act of a cunning trick. It has had no principles, fixed or otherwise. It + has always been willing to abandon everything but its prejudices. It + generally commences where it left off and then goes backward. In this + campaign English was a mistake, Hancock was another. Nothing could have + been more incongruous than yoking a Federal soldier with a + peace-at-any-price Democrat. Neither could praise the other without + slandering himself, and the blindest partisan could not like them both. + But, after all, I regard the military record of English as fully equal to + the views of General Hancock on the tariff. The greatest mistake that the + Democratic party made was to suppose that a campaign could be fought and + won by slander. The American people like fair play and they abhor ignorant + and absurd vituperation. The continent knew that General Garfield was an + honest man; that he was in the grandest sense a gentleman; that he was + patriotic, profound and learned; that his private life was pure; that his + home life was good and kind and true, and all the charges made and howled + and screeched and printed and sworn to harmed only those who did the + making and the howling, the screeching and the swearing. I never knew a + man in whose perfect integrity I had more perfect confidence, and in less + than one year even the men who have slandered him will agree with me. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How about that "personal and confidential letter"? (The + Morey letter.) + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It was as stupid, as devilish, as basely born as + godfathered. It is an exploded forgery, and the explosion leaves dead and + torn upon the field the author and his witnesses. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is there anything in the charge that the Republican party + seeks to change our form of government by gradual centralization? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Nothing whatever. We want power enough in the Government to + protect, not to destroy, the liberties of the people. The history of the + world shows that burglars have always opposed an increase of the police. + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York Herald</i>, November 5, 1880. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0013" id="link0013"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + INGERSOLL AND BEECHER.* + </h2> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + [* The sensation created by the speech of the Rev. Henry + Ward Beecher at the Academy of Music, in Brooklyn, when he + uttered a brilliant eulogy of Col. Robert Ingersoll and + publicly shook hands with him has not yet subsided. A + portion of the religious world is thoroughly stirred up at + what it considers a gross breach of orthodox propriety. + This feeling is especially strong among the class of + positivists who believe that + + "An Atheist's laugh's a poor exchange For Deity offended." + + Many believe that Mr. Beecher is at heart in full sympathy + and accord with Ingersoll's teachings, but has not courage + enough to say so at the sacrifice of his pastoral position. + The fact that these two men are the very head and front of + their respective schools of thought makes the matter an + important one. The denouncement of the doctrine of eternal + punishment, followed by the scene at the Academy, has about + it an aroma of suggestiveness that might work much harm + without an explanation. Since Colonel Ingersoll's recent + attack upon the <i>personnel</i> of the clergy through the + "Shorter Catechism" the pulpit has been remarkably silent + regarding the great atheist. "Is the keen logic and broad + humanity of Ingersoll converting the brain and heart of + Christendom?" was recently asked. Did the hand that was + stretched out to him on the stage of the Academy reach + across the chasm which separates orthodoxy from infidelity? + + Desiring to answer the last question if possible, a <i>Herald</i> + reporter visited Mr. Beecher and Colonel Ingersoll to learn + their opinion of each other. Neither of the gentlemen was + aware that the other was being interviewed.] +</pre> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of Mr. Beecher? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I regard him as the greatest man in any pulpit of the + world. He treated me with a generosity that nothing can exceed. He rose + grandly above the prejudices supposed to belong to his class, and acted as + only a man could act without a chain upon his brain and only kindness in + his heart. + </p> + <p> + I told him that night that I congratulated the world that it had a + minister with an intellectual horizon broad enough and a mental sky + studded with stars of genius enough to hold all creeds in scorn that + shocked the heart of man. I think that Mr. Beecher has liberalized the + English-speaking people of the world. + </p> + <p> + I do not think he agrees with me. He holds to many things that I most + passionately deny. But in common, we believe in the liberty of thought. + </p> + <p> + My principal objections to orthodox religion are two—slavery here + and hell hereafter. I do not believe that Mr. Beecher on these points can + disagree with me. The real difference between us is— he says God, I + say Nature. The real agreement between us is—we both say—Liberty. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is his forte? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. He is of a wonderfully poetic temperament. In pursuing any + course of thought his mind is like a stream flowing through the scenery of + fairyland. The stream murmurs and laughs while the banks grow green and + the vines blossom. + </p> + <p> + His brain is controlled by his heart. He thinks in pictures. With him + logic means mental melody. The discordant is the absurd. + </p> + <p> + For years he has endeavored to hide the dungeon of orthodoxy with the ivy + of imagination. Now and then he pulls for a moment the leafy curtain aside + and is horrified to see the lizards, snakes, basilisks and abnormal + monsters of the orthodox age, and then he utters a great cry, the protest + of a loving, throbbing heart. + </p> + <p> + He is a great thinker, a marvelous orator, and, in my judgment, greater + and grander than any creed of any church. + </p> + <p> + Besides all this, he treated me like a king. Manhood is his forte, and I + expect to live and die his friend. + </p> + <p> + BEECHER ON INGERSOLL. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of Colonel Ingersoll? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not think there should be any misconception as to my + motive for indorsing Mr. Ingersoll. I never saw him before that night, + when I clasped his hand in the presence of an assemblage of citizens. Yet + I regard him as one of the greatest men of this age. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is his influence upon the world good or otherwise? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I am an ordained clergyman and believe in revealed + religion. I am, therefore, bound to regard all persons who do not believe + in revealed religion as in error. But on the broad platform of human + liberty and progress I was bound to give him the right hand of fellowship. + I would do it a thousand times over. I do not know Colonel Ingersoll's + religious views precisely, but I have a general knowledge of them. He has + the same right to free thought and free speech that I have. I am not that + kind of a coward who has to kick a man before he shakes hands with him. If + I did so I would have to kick the Methodists, Roman Catholics and all + other creeds. I will not pitch into any man's religion as an excuse for + giving him my hand. I admire Ingersoll because he is not afraid to speak + what he honestly thinks, and I am only sorry that he does not think as I + do. I never heard so much brilliancy and pith put into a two hour speech + as I did on that night. I wish my whole congregation had been there to + hear it. I regret that there are not more men like Ingersoll interested in + the affairs of the nation. I do not wish to be understood as indorsing + skepticism in any form. + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York Herald</i>, November 7, 1880. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0014" id="link0014"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + POLITICAL. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is it true, as rumored, that you intend to leave + Washington and reside in New York? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. No, I expect to remain here for years to come, so far as I + can now see. My present intention is certainly to stay here during the + coming winter. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is this because you regard Washington as the pleasantest + and most advantageous city for a residence? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Well, in the first place, I dislike to move. In the next + place, the climate is good. In the third place, the political atmosphere + has been growing better of late, and when you consider that I avoid one + dislike and reap the benefits of two likes, you can see why I remain. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think that the moral atmosphere will improve with + the political atmosphere? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I would hate to say that this city is capable of any + improvement in the way of morality. We have a great many churches, a great + many ministers, and, I believe, some retired chaplains, so I take it that + the moral tone of the place could hardly be bettered. One majority in the + Senate might help it. Seriously, however, I think that Washington has as + high a standard of morality as any city in the Union. And it is one of the + best towns in which to loan money without collateral in the world. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you know this from experience? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. This I have been told [was the solemn answer.] + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think that the political features of the incoming + administration will differ from the present? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course, I have no right to speak for General Garfield. I + believe his administration will be Republican, at the same time perfectly + kind, manly, and generous. He is a man to harbor no resentment. He knows + that it is the duty of statesmanship to remove causes of irritation rather + then punish the irritated. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do I understand you to imply that there will be a neutral + policy, as it were, towards the South? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. No, I think that there will be nothing neutral about it. I + think that the next administration will be one-sided—that is, it + will be on the right side. I know of no better definition for a compromise + than to say it is a proceeding in which hypocrites deceive each other. I + do not believe that the incoming administration will be neutral in + anything. The American people do not like neutrality. They would rather a + man were on the wrong side than on neither. And, in my judgment, there is + no paper so utterly unfair, malicious and devilish, as one that claims to + be neutral. No politician is as bitter as a neutral politician. Neutrality + is generally used as a mask to hide unusual bitterness. Sometimes it hides + what it is—nothing. It always stands for hollowness of head or + bitterness of heart, sometimes for both. My idea is—and that is the + only reason I have the right to express it—that General Garfield + believes in the platform adopted by the Republican party. He believes in + free speech, in honest money, in divorce of church and state, and he + believes in the protection of American citizens by the Federal Government + wherever the flag flies. He believes that the Federal Government is as + much bound to protect the citizen at home as abroad. I believe he will do + the very best he can to carry these great ideas into execution and make + them living realities in the United States. Personally, I have no hatred + toward the Southern people. I have no hatred toward any class. I hate + tyranny, no matter whether it is South or North; I hate hypocrisy, and I + hate above all things, the spirit of caste. If the Southern people could + only see that they gained as great a victory in the Rebellion as the North + did, and some day they will see it, the whole question would be settled. + The South has reaped a far greater benefit from being defeated than the + North has from being successful, and I believe some day the South will be + great enough to appreciate that fact. I have always insisted that to be + beaten by the right is to be a victor. The Southern people must get over + the idea that they are insulted simply because they are out-voted, and + they ought by this time to know that the Republicans of the North, not + only do not wish them harm, but really wish them the utmost success. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. But has the Republican party all the good and the + Democratic all the bad? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. No, I do not think that the Republican party has all the + good, nor do I pretend that the Democratic party has all the bad; though I + may say that each party comes pretty near it. I admit that there are + thousands of really good fellows in the Democratic party, and there are + some pretty bad people in the Republican party. But I honestly believe + that within the latter are most of the progressive men of this country. + That party has in it the elements of growth. It is full of hope. It + anticipates. The Democratic party remembers. It is always talking about + the past. It is the possessor of a vast amount of political rubbish, and I + really believe it has outlived its usefulness. I firmly believe that your + editor, Mr. Hutchings, could start a better organization, if he would only + turn his attention to it. Just think for a moment of the number you could + get rid of by starting a new party. A hundred names will probably suggest + themselves to any intelligent Democrat, the loss of which would almost + insure success. Some one has said that a tailor in Boston made a fortune + by advertising that he did not cut the breeches of Webster's statue. A new + party by advertising that certain men would not belong to it, would have + an advantage in the next race. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What, in your opinion, were the causes which led to the + Democratic defeat? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think the nomination of English was exceedingly + unfortunate. Indiana, being an October State, the best man in that State + should have been nominated either for President or Vice- President. + Personally, I know nothing of Mr. English, but I have the right to say + that he was exceedingly unpopular. That was mistake number one. Mistake + number two was putting a plank in the platform insisting upon a tariff for + revenue only. That little word "only" was one of the most frightful + mistakes ever made by a political party. That little word "only" was a + millstone around the neck of the entire campaign. The third mistake was + Hancock's definition of the tariff. It was exceedingly unfortunate, + exceedingly laughable, and came just in the nick of time. The fourth + mistake was the speech of Wade Hampton, I mean the speech that the + Republican papers claim he made. Of course I do not know, personally, + whether it was made or not. If made, it was a great mistake. Mistake + number five was made in Alabama, where they refused to allow a Greenbacker + to express his opinion. That lost the Democrats enough Greenbackers to + turn the scale in Maine, and enough in Indiana to change that election. + Mistake number six was in the charges made against General Garfield. They + were insisted upon, magnified and multiplied until at last the whole thing + assumed the proportions of a malicious libel. This was a great mistake, + for the reason that a number of Democrats in the United States had most + heartily and cordially indorsed General Garfield as a man of integrity and + great ability. Such indorsements had been made by the leading Democrats of + the North and South, among them Governor Hendricks and many others I might + name. Jere Black had also certified to the integrity and intellectual + grandeur of General Garfield, and when afterward he certified to the exact + contrary, the people believed that it was a persecution. The next mistake, + number seven, was the Chinese letter. While it lost Garfield California, + Nevada, and probably New Jersey, it did him good in New York. This letter + was the greatest mistake made, because a crime is greater than a mistake. + These, in my judgment, are the principal mistakes made by the Democratic + party in the campaign. Had McDonald been on the ticket the result might + have been different, or had the party united on some man in New York, + satisfactory to the factions, it might have succeeded. The truth, however, + is that the North to-day is Republican, and it may be that had the + Democratic party made no mistakes whatever the result would have been the + same. But that mistakes were made is now perfectly evident to the blindest + partisan. If the ticket originally suggested, Seymour and McDonald, had + been nominated on an unobjectionable platform, the result might have been + different. One of the happiest days in my life was the day on which the + Cincinnati convention did not nominate Seymour and did nominate English. I + regard General Hancock as a good soldier, but not particularly qualified + to act as President. He has neither the intellectual training nor the + experience to qualify him for that place. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. You have doubtless heard of a new party, Colonel. What is + your idea in regard to it? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have heard two or three speak of a new party to be called + the National party, or National Union party, but whether there is anything + in such a movement I have no means of knowing. Any party in opposition to + the Republican, no matter what it may be called, must win on a new issue, + and that new issue will determine the new party. Parties cannot be made to + order. They must grow. They are the natural offspring of national events. + They must embody certain hopes, they must gratify, or promise to gratify, + the feelings of a vast number of people. No man can make a party, and if a + new party springs into existence it will not be brought forth to gratify + the wishes of a few, but the wants of the many. It has seemed to me for + years that the Democratic party carried too great a load in the shape of + record; that its autobiography was nearly killing it all the time, and + that if it could die just long enough to assume another form at the + resurrection, just long enough to leave a grave stone to mark the end of + its history, to get a cemetery back of it, that it might hope for + something like success. In other words, that there must be a funeral + before there can be victory. Most of its leaders are worn out. They have + become so accustomed to defeat that they take it as a matter of course; + they expect it in the beginning and seem unconsciously to work for it. + There must be some new ideas, and this only can happen when the party as + such has been gathered to its fathers. I do not think that the advice of + Senator Hill will be followed. He is willing to kill the Democratic party + in the South if we will kill the Republican party in the North. This puts + me in mind of what the rooster said to the horse: "Let us agree not to + step on each other's feet." + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Your views of the country's future and prospects must + naturally be rose colored? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course, I look at things through Republican eyes and may + be prejudiced without knowing it. But it really seems to me that the + future is full of great promise. The South, after all, is growing more + prosperous. It is producing more and more every year, until in time it + will become wealthy. The West is growing almost beyond the imagination of + a speculator, and the Eastern and Middle States are much more than holding + their own. We have now fifty millions of people and in a few years will + have a hundred. That we are a Nation I think is now settled. Our growth + will be unparalleled. I myself expect to live to see as many ships on the + Pacific as on the Atlantic. In a few years there will probably be ten + millions of people living along the Rocky and Sierra Mountains. It will + not be long until Illinois will find her market west of her. In fifty + years this will be the greatest nation on the earth, and the most populous + in the civilized world. China is slowly awakening from the lethargy of + centuries. It will soon have the wants of Europe, and America will supply + those wants. This is a nation of inventors and there is more mechanical + ingenuity in the United States than on the rest of the globe. In my + judgment this country will in a short time add to its customers hundreds + of millions of the people of the Celestial Empire. So you see, to me, the + future is exceedingly bright. And besides all this, I must not forget the + thing that is always nearest my heart. There is more intellectual liberty + in the United States to-day than ever before. The people are beginning to + see that every citizen ought to have the right to express himself freely + upon every possible subject. In a little while, all the barbarous laws + that now disgrace the statute books of the States by discriminating + against a man simply because he is honest, will be repealed, and there + will be one country where all citizens will have and enjoy not only equal + rights, but all rights. Nothing gratifies me so much as the growth of + intellectual liberty. After all, the true civilization is where every man + gives to every other, every right that he claims for himself. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Post</i>, Washington, D. C., November 14, 1880. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0015" id="link0015"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + RELIGION IN POLITICS. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. How do you regard the present political situation? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. My opinion is that the ideas the North fought for upon the + field have at last triumphed at the ballot-box. For several years after + the Rebellion was put down the Southern ideas traveled North. We lost West + Virginia, New Jersey, Connecticut, New York and a great many congressional + districts in other States. We lost both houses of Congress and every + Southern State. The Southern ideas reached their climax in 1876. In my + judgment the tide has turned, and hereafter the Northern idea is going + South. The young men are on the Republican side. The old Democrats are + dying. The cradle is beating the coffin. It is a case of life and death, + and life is ahead. The heirs outnumber the administrators. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What kind of a President will Garfield make? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. My opinion is that he will make as good a President as this + nation ever had. He is fully equipped. He is a trained statesman. He has + discussed all the great questions that have arisen for the last eighteen + years, and with great ability. He is a thorough scholar, a conscientious + student, and takes an exceedingly comprehensive survey of all questions. + He is genial, generous and candid, and has all the necessary qualities of + heart and brain to make a great President. He has no prejudices. Prejudice + is the child and flatterer of ignorance. He is firm, but not obstinate. + The obstinate man wants his own way; the firm man stands by the right. + Andrew Johnson was obstinate—Lincoln was firm. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How do you think he will treat the South? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Just the same as the North. He will be the President of the + whole country. He will not execute the laws by the compass, but according + to the Constitution. I do not speak for General Garfield, nor by any + authority from his friends. No one wishes to injure the South. The + Republican party feels in honor bound to protect all citizens, white and + black. It must do this in order to keep its self-respect. It must throw + the shield of the Nation over the weakest, the humblest and the blackest + citizen. Any other course is suicide. No thoughtful Southern man can + object to this, and a Northern Democrat knows that it is right. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is there a probability that Mr. Sherman will be retained + in the Cabinet? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have no knowledge upon that question, and consequently + have nothing to say. My opinion about the Cabinet is, that General + Garfield is well enough acquainted with public men to choose a Cabinet + that will suit him and the country. I have never regarded it as the proper + thing to try and force a Cabinet upon a President. He has the right to be + surrounded by his friends, by men in whose judgment and in whose + friendship he has the utmost confidence, and I would no more think of + trying to put some man in the Cabinet that I would think of signing a + petition that a man should marry a certain woman. General Garfield will, I + believe, select his own constitutional advisers, and he will take the best + he knows. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What, in your opinion, is the condition of the Democratic + party at present? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It must get a new set of principles, and throw away its + prejudices. It must demonstrate its capacity to govern the country by + governing the States where it is in power. In the presence of rebellion it + gave up the ship. The South must become Republican before the North will + willingly give it power; that is, the great ideas of nationality are + greater than parties, and if our flag is not large enough to protect every + citizen, we must add a few more stars and stripes. Personally I have no + hatreds in this matter. The present is not only the child of the past, but + the necessary child. A statesman must deal with things as they are. He + must not be like Gladstone, who divides his time between foreign wars and + amendments to the English Book of Common Prayer. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How do you regard the religious question in politics? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Religion is a personal matter—a matter that each + individual soul should be allowed to settle for itself. No man shod in the + brogans of impudence should walk into the temple of another man's soul. + While every man should be governed by the highest possible considerations + of the public weal, no one has the right to ask for legal assistance in + the support of his particular sect. If Catholics oppose the public schools + I would not oppose them because they are Catholics, but because I am in + favor of the schools. I regard the public school as the intellectual bread + of life. Personally I have no confidence in any religion that can be + demonstrated only to children. I suspect all creeds that rely implicitly + on mothers and nurses. That religion is the best that commends itself the + strongest to men and women of education and genius. After all, the + prejudices of infancy and the ignorance of the aged are a poor foundation + for any system of morals or faith. I respect every honest man, and I think + more of a liberal Catholic than of an illiberal Infidel. The religious + question should be left out of politics. You might as well decide + questions of art and music by a ward caucus as to govern the longings and + dreams of the soul by law. I believe in letting the sun shine whether the + weeds grow or not. I can never side with Protestants if they try to put + Catholics down by law, and I expect to oppose both of these until + religious intolerance is regarded as a crime. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is the religious movement of which you are the chief + exponent spreading? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. There are ten times as many Freethinkers this year as there + were last. Civilization is the child of free thought. The new world has + drifted away from the rotting wharf of superstition. The politics of this + country are being settled by the new ideas of individual liberty; and + parties and churches that cannot accept the new truths must perish. I want + it perfectly understood that I am not a politician. I believe in liberty + and I want to see the time when every man, woman and child will enjoy + every human right. + </p> + <p> + The election is over, the passions aroused by the campaign will soon + subside, the sober judgment of the people will, in my opinion, indorse the + result, and time will indorse the indorsement. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Evening Express</i>, New York City, November 19, 1880. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0016" id="link0016"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + MIRACLES AND IMMORTALITY. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. You have seen some accounts of the recent sermon of Dr. + Tyng on "Miracles," I presume, and if so, what is your opinion of the + sermon, and also what is your opinion of miracles? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. From an orthodox standpoint, I think the Rev. Dr. Tyng is + right. If miracles were necessary eighteen hundred years ago, before + scientific facts enough were known to overthrow hundreds and thousands of + passages in the Bible, certainly they are necessary now. Dr. Tyng sees + clearly that the old miracles are nearly worn out, and that some new ones + are absolutely essential. He takes for granted that, if God would do a + miracle to found his gospel, he certainly would do some more to preserve + it, and that it is in need of preservation about now is evident. I am + amazed that the religious world should laugh at him for believing in + miracles. It seems to me just as reasonable that the deaf, dumb, blind and + lame, should be cured at Lourdes as at Palestine. It certainly is no more + wonderful that the law of nature should be broken now than that it was + broken several thousand years ago. Dr. Tyng also has this advantage. The + witnesses by whom he proves these miracles are alive. An unbeliever can + have the opportunity of cross- examination. Whereas, the miracles in the + New Testament are substantiated only by the dead. It is just as reasonable + to me that blind people receive their sight in France as that devils were + made to vacate human bodies in the holy land. + </p> + <p> + For one I am exceedingly glad that Dr. Tyng has taken this position. It + shows that he is a believer in a personal God, in a God who is attending a + little to the affairs of this world, and in a God who did not exhaust his + supplies in the apostolic age. It is refreshing to me to find in this + scientific age a gentleman who still believes in miracles. My opinion is + that all thorough religionists will have to take the ground and admit that + a supernatural religion must be supernaturally preserved. + </p> + <p> + I have been asking for a miracle for several years, and have in a very + mild, gentle and loving way, taunted the church for not producing a little + one. I have had the impudence to ask any number of them to join in a + prayer asking anything they desire for the purpose of testing the + efficiency of what is known as supplication. They answer me by calling my + attention to the miracles recorded in the New Testament. I insist, + however, on a new miracle, and, personally, I would like to see one now. + Certainly, the Infinite has not lost his power, and certainly the Infinite + knows that thousands and hundreds of thousands, if the Bible is true, are + now pouring over the precipice of unbelief into the gulf of hell. One + little miracle would save thousands. One little miracle in Pittsburg, well + authenticated, would do more good than all the preaching ever heard in + this sooty town. The Rev. Dr. Tyng clearly sees this, and he has been + driven to the conclusion, first, that God can do miracles; second, that he + ought to, third, that he has. In this he is perfectly logical. After a man + believes the Bible, after he believes in the flood and in the story of + Jonah, certainly he ought not to hesitate at a miracle of to-day. When I + say I want a miracle, I mean by that, I want a good one. All the miracles + recorded in the New Testament could have been simulated. A fellow could + have pretended to be dead, or blind, or dumb, or deaf. I want to see a + good miracle. I want to see a man with one leg, and then I want to see the + other leg grow out. + </p> + <p> + I would like to see a miracle like that performed in North Carolina. Two + men were disputing about the relative merits of the salve they had for + sale. One of the men, in order to demonstrate that his salve was better + than any other, cut off a dog's tail and applied a little of the salve to + the stump, and, in the presence of the spectators, a new tail grew out. + But the other man, who also had salve for sale, took up the piece of tail + that had been cast away, put a little salve at the end of that, and a new + dog grew out, and the last heard of those parties they were quarrelling as + to who owned the second dog. Something like that is what I call a miracle. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you believe about the immortality of the soul? Do + you believe that the spirit lives as an individual after the body is dead? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have said a great many times that it is no more wonderful + that we should live again than that we do live. Sometimes I have thought + it not quite so wonderful for the reason that we have a start. But upon + that subject I have not the slightest information. Whether man lives again + or not I cannot pretend to say. There may be another world and there may + not be. If there is another world we ought to make the best of it after + arriving there. If there is not another world, or if there is another + world, we ought to make the best of this. And since nobody knows, all + should be permitted to have their opinions, and my opinion is that nobody + knows. + </p> + <p> + If we take the Old Testament for authority, man is not immortal. The Old + Testament shows man how he lost immortality. According to Genesis, God + prevented man from putting forth his hand and eating of the Tree of Life. + It is there stated, had he succeeded, man would have lived forever. God + drove him from the garden, preventing him eating of this tree, and in + consequence man became mortal; so that if we go by the Old Testament we + are compelled to give up immortality. The New Testament has but little on + the subject. In one place we are told to seek for immortality. If we are + already immortal, it is hard to see why we should go on seeking for it. In + another place we are told that they who are worthy to obtain that world + and the resurrection of the dead, are not given in marriage. From this one + would infer there would be some unworthy to be raised from the dead. Upon + the question of immortality, the Old Testament throws but little + satisfactory light. I do not deny immortality, nor would I endeavor to + shake the belief of anybody in another life. What I am endeavoring to do + is to put out the fires of hell. If we cannot have heaven without hell, I + am in favor of abolishing heaven. I do not want to go to heaven if one + soul is doomed to agony. I would rather be annihilated. + </p> + <p> + My opinion of immortality is this: + </p> + <p> + First.—I live, and that of itself is infinitely wonderful. + </p> + <p> + Second.—There was a time when I was not, and after I was not, I was. + Third.—Now that I am, I may be again; and it is no more wonderful + that I may be again, if I have been, than that I am, having once been + nothing. If the churches advocated immortality, if they advocated eternal + justice, if they said that man would be rewarded and punished according to + deeds; if they admitted that some time in eternity there would be an + opportunity given to lift up souls, and that throughout all the ages the + angels of progress and virtue would beckon the fallen upward; and that + some time, and no matter how far away they might put off the time, all the + children of men would be reasonably happy, I never would say a solitary + word against the church, but just as long as they preach that the majority + of mankind will suffer eternal pain, just so long I shall oppose them; + that is to say, as long as I live. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you believe in a God; and, if so, what kind of a God? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Let me, in the first place, lay a foundation for an answer. + </p> + <p> + First.—Man gets all food for thought through the medium of the + senses. The effect of nature upon the senses, and through the senses upon + the brain, must be natural. All food for thought, then, is natural. As a + consequence of this, there can be no supernatural idea in the human brain. + Whatever idea there is must have been a natural product. If, then, there + is no supernatural idea in the human brain, then there cannot be in the + human brain an idea of the supernatural. If we can have no idea of the + supernatural, and if the God of whom you spoke is admitted to be + supernatural, then, of course, I can have no idea of him, and I certainly + can have no very fixed belief on any subject about which I have no idea. + </p> + <p> + There may be a God for all I know. There may be thousands of them. But the + idea of an infinite Being outside and independent of nature is + inconceivable. I do not know of any word that would explain my doctrine or + my views upon the subject. I suppose Pantheism is as near as I could go. I + believe in the eternity of matter and in the eternity of intelligence, but + I do not believe in any Being outside of nature. I do not believe in any + personal Deity. I do not believe in any aristocracy of the air. I know + nothing about origin or destiny. Between these two horizons I live, + whether I wish to or not, and must be satisfied with what I find between + these two horizons. I have never heard any God described that I believe + in. I have never heard any religion explained that I accept. To make + something out of nothing cannot be more absurd than that an infinite + intelligence made this world, and proceeded to fill it with crime and want + and agony, and then, not satisfied with the evil he had wrought, made a + hell in which to consummate the great mistake. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you believe that the world, and all that is in it came + by chance? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not believe anything comes by chance. I regard the + present as the necessary child of a necessary past. I believe matter is + eternal; that it has eternally existed and eternally will exist. I believe + that in all matter, in some way, there is what we call force; that one of + the forms of force is intelligence. I believe that whatever is in the + universe has existed from eternity and will forever exist. + </p> + <p> + Secondly.—I exclude from my philosophy all ideas of chance. Matter + changes eternally its form, never its essence. You cannot conceive of + anything being created. No one can conceive of anything existing without a + cause or with a cause. Let me explain; a thing is not a cause until an + effect has been produced; so that, after all, cause and effect are twins + coming into life at precisely the same instant, born of the womb of an + unknown mother. The Universe in the only fact, and everything that ever + has happened, is happening, or will happen, are but the different aspects + of the one eternal fact. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Dispatch</i>, Pittsburg, Pa., December 11, 1880. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0017" id="link0017"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE POLITICAL OUTLOOK. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What phases will the Southern question assume in the next + four years? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The next Congress should promptly unseat every member of + Congress in whose district there was not a fair and honest election. That + is the first hard work to be done. Let notice, in this way, be given to + the whole country, that fraud cannot succeed. No man should be allowed to + hold a seat by force or fraud. Just as soon as it is understood that fraud + is useless it will be abandoned. In that way the honest voters of the + whole country can be protected. + </p> + <p> + An honest vote settles the Southern question, and Congress has the power + to compel an honest vote, or to leave the dishonest districts without + representation. I want this policy adopted, not only in the South, but in + the North. No man touched or stained with fraud should be allowed to hold + his seat. Send such men home, and let them stay there until sent back by + honest votes. The Southern question is a Northern question, and the + Republican party must settle it for all time. We must have honest + elections, or the Republic must fall. Illegal voting must be considered + and punished as a crime. + </p> + <p> + Taking one hundred and seventy thousand as the basis of representation, + the South, through her astounding increase of colored population, gains + three electoral votes, while the North and East lose three. Garfield was + elected by the thirty thousand colored votes cast in New York. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Will the negro continue to be the balance of power, and + if so, will it inure to his benefit? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The more political power the colored man has the better he + will be treated, and if he ever holds the balance of power he will be + treated as well as the balance of our citizens. My idea is that the + colored man should stand on an equality with the white before the law; + that he should honestly be protected in all his rights; that he should be + allowed to vote, and that his vote should be counted. It is a simple + question of honesty. The colored people are doing well; they are + industrious; they are trying to get an education, and, on the whole, I + think they are behaving fully as well as the whites. They are the most + forgiving people in the world, and about the only real Christians in our + country. They have suffered enough, and for one I am on their side. I + think more of honest black people than of dishonest whites, to say the + least of it. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you apprehend any trouble from the Southern leaders in + this closing session of Congress, in attempts to force pernicious + legislation? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not. The Southern leaders know that the doctrine of + State Sovereignty is dead. They know that they cannot depend upon the + Northern Democrat, and they know that the best interests of the South can + only be preserved by admitting that the war settled the questions and + ideas fought for and against. They know that this country is a Nation, and + that no party can possibly succeed that advocates anything contrary to + that. My own opinion is that most of the Southern leaders are heartily + ashamed of the course pursued by their Northern friends, and will take the + first opportunity to say so. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. In what light do you regard the Chinaman? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I am opposed to compulsory immigration, or cooley or slave + immigration. If Chinamen are sent to this country by corporations or + companies under contracts that amount to slavery or anything like it or + near it, then I am opposed to it. But I am not prepared to say that I + would be opposed to voluntary immigration. I see by the papers that a new + treaty has been agreed upon that will probably be ratified and be + satisfactory to all parties. We ought to treat China with the utmost + fairness. If our treaty is wrong, amend it, but do so according to the + recognized usage of nations. After what has been said and done in this + country I think there is very little danger of any Chinaman voluntarily + coming here. By this time China must have an exceedingly exalted opinion + of our religion, and of the justice and hospitality born of our most holy + faith. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of making ex-Presidents Senators for + life? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I am opposed to it. I am against any man holding office for + life. And I see no more reason for making ex-Presidents Senators, than for + making ex-Senators Presidents. To me the idea is preposterous. Why should + ex-Presidents be taken care of? In this country labor is not disgraceful, + and after a man has been President he has still the right to be useful. I + am personally acquainted with several men who will agree, in consideration + of being elected to the presidency, not to ask for another office during + their natural lives. The people of this country should never allow a great + man to suffer. The hand, not of charity, but of justice and generosity, + should be forever open to those who have performed great public service. + </p> + <p> + But the ex-Presidents of the future may not all be great and good men, and + bad ex-Presidents will not make good Senators. If the nation does + anything, let it give a reasonable pension to ex- Presidents. No man feels + like giving pension, power, or place to General Grant simply because he + was once President, but because he was a great soldier, and led the armies + of the nation to victory. Make him a General, and retire him with the + highest military title. Let him grandly wear the laurels he so nobly won, + and should the sky at any time be darkened with a cloud of foreign war, + this country will again hand him the sword. Such a course honors the + nation and the man. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are we not entering upon the era of our greatest + prosperity? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. We are just beginning to be prosperous. The Northern + Pacific Railroad is to be completed. Forty millions of dollars have just + been raised by that company, and new States will soon be born in the great + Northwest. The Texas Pacific will be pushed to San Diego, and in a few + years we will ride in a Pullman car from Chicago to the City of Mexico. + The gold and silver mines are yielding more and more, and within the last + ten years more than forty million acres of land have been changed from + wilderness to farms. This country is beginning to grow. We have just + fairly entered upon what I believe will be the grandest period of national + development and prosperity. With the Republican party in power; with good + money; with unlimited credit; with the best land in the world; with ninety + thousand miles of railway; with mountains of gold and silver; with + hundreds of thousands of square miles of coal fields; with iron enough for + the whole world; with the best system of common schools; with telegraph + wires reaching every city and town, so that no two citizens are an hour + apart; with the telephone, that makes everybody in the city live next + door, and with the best folks in the world, how can we help prospering + until the continent is covered with happy homes? + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of civil service reform? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I am in favor of it. I want such civil service reform that + all the offices will be filled with good and competent Republicans. The + majority should rule, and the men who are in favor of the views of the + majority should hold the offices. I am utterly opposed to the idea that a + party should show its liberality at the expense of its principles. Men + holding office can afford to take their chances with the rest of us. If + they are Democrats, they should not expect to succeed when their party is + defeated. I believe that there are enough good and honest Republicans in + this country to fill all the offices, and I am opposed to taking any + Democrats until the Republican supply is exhausted. + </p> + <p> + Men should not join the Republican party to get office. Such men are + contemptible to the last degree. Neither should a Republican + administration compel a man to leave the party to get a Federal + appointment. After a great battle has been fought I do not believe that + the victorious general should reward the officers of the conquered army. + My doctrine is, rewards for friends. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Commercial</i>, Cincinnati, Ohio, December 6, 1880. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0018" id="link0018"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + MR. BEECHER, MOSES AND THE NEGRO. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. Mr. Beecher is here. Have you seen him? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. No, I did not meet Mr. Beecher. Neither did I hear him + lecture. The fact is, that long ago I made up my mind that under no + circumstances would I attend any lecture or other entertainment given at + Lincoln Hall. First, because the hall has been denied me, and secondly, + because I regard it as extremely unsafe. The hall is up several stories + from the ground, and in case of the slightest panic, in my judgment, many + lives would be lost. Had it not been for this, and for the fact that the + persons owning it imagined that because they had control, the brick and + mortar had some kind of holy and sacred quality, and that this holiness is + of such a wonderful character that it would not be proper for a man in + that hall to tell his honest thoughts, I would have heard him. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Then I assume that you and Mr. Beecher have made up? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. There is nothing to be made up for so far as I know. Mr. + Beecher has treated me very well, and, I believe, a little too well for + his own peace of mind. I have been informed that some members of Plymouth + Church felt exceedingly hurt that their pastor should so far forget + himself as to extend the right hand of fellowship to one who differs from + him upon what they consider very essential points in theology. You see I + have denied with all my might, a great many times, the infamous doctrine + of eternal punishment. I have also had the temerity to suggest that I did + not believe that a being of infinite justice and mercy was the author of + all that I find in the Old Testament. As, for instance, I have insisted + that God never commanded anybody to butcher women or to cut the throats of + prattling babes. These orthodox gentlemen have rushed to the rescue of + Jehovah by insisting that he did all these horrible things. I have also + maintained that God never sanctioned or upheld human slavery; that he + never would make one child to own and beat another. + </p> + <p> + I have also expressed some doubts as to whether this same God ever + established the institution of polygamy. I have insisted that the + institution is simply infamous; that it destroys the idea of home; that it + turns to ashes the most sacred words in our language, and leaves the world + a kind of den in which crawl the serpents of selfishness and lust. I have + been informed that after Mr. Beecher had treated me kindly a few members + of his congregation objected, and really felt ashamed that he had so + forgotten himself. After that, Mr. Beecher saw fit to give his ideas of + the position I had taken. In this he was not exceedingly kind, nor was his + justice very conspicuous. But I cared nothing about that, not the least. + As I have said before, whenever Mr. Beecher says a good thing I give him + credit. Whenever he does an unfair or unjust thing I charge it to the + account of his religion. I have insisted, and I still insist, that Mr. + Beecher is far better than his creed. I do not believe that he believes in + the doctrine of eternal punishment. Neither do I believe that he believes + in the literal truth of the Scriptures. And, after all, if the Bible is + not true, it is hardly worth while to insist upon its inspiration. An + inspired lie is not better than an uninspired one. If the Bible is true it + does not need to be inspired. If it is not true, inspiration does not help + it. So that after all it is simply a question of fact. Is it true? I + believe Mr. Beecher stated that one of my grievous faults was that I + picked out the bad things in the Bible. How an infinitely good and wise + God came to put bad things in his book Mr. Beecher does not explain. I + have insisted that the Bible is not inspired, and, in order to prove that, + have pointed out such passages as I deemed unworthy to have been written + even by a civilized man or a savage. I certainly would not endeavor to + prove that the Bible is uninspired by picking out its best passages. I + admit that there are many good things in the Bible. The fact that there + are good things in it does not prove its inspiration, because there are + thousands of other books containing good things, and yet no one claims + they are inspired. Shakespeare's works contain a thousand times more good + things than the Bible, but no one claims he was an inspired man. It is + also true that there are many bad things in Shakespeare—many + passages which I wish he had never written. But I can excuse Shakespeare, + because he did not rise absolutely above his time. That is to say, he was + a man; that is to say, he was imperfect. If anybody claimed now that + Shakespeare was actually inspired, that claim would be answered by + pointing to certain weak or bad or vulgar passages in his works. But every + Christian will say that it is a certain kind of blasphemy to impute + vulgarity or weakness to God, as they are all obliged to defend the weak, + the bad and the vulgar, so long as they insist upon the inspiration of the + Bible. Now, I pursued the same course with the Bible that Mr. Beecher has + pursued with me. Why did he want to pick out my bad things? Is it possible + that he is a kind of vulture that sees only the carrion of another? After + all, has he not pursued the same method with me that he blames me for + pursuing in regard to the Bible? Of course he must pursue that method. He + could not object to me and then point out passages that were not + objectionable. If he found fault he had to find faults in order to sustain + his ground. That is exactly what I have done with Scriptures—nothing + more and nothing less. The reason I have thrown away the Bible is that in + many places it is harsh, cruel, unjust, coarse, vulgar, atrocious, + infamous. At the same time, I admit that it contains many passages of an + excellent and splendid character —many good things, wise sayings, + and many excellent and just laws. + </p> + <p> + But I would like to ask this: Suppose there were no passages in the Bible + except those upholding slavery, polygamy and wars of extermination; would + anybody then claim that it was the word of God? I would like to ask if + there is a Christian in the world who would not be overjoyed to find that + every one of these passages was an interpolation? I would also like to ask + Mr. Beecher if he would not be greatly gratified to find that after God + had written the Bible the Devil had got hold of it, and interpolated all + these passages about slavery, polygamy, the slaughter of women and babes + and the doctrine of eternal punishment? Suppose, as a matter of fact, the + Devil did get hold of it; what part of the Bible would Mr. Beecher pick + out as having been written by the Devil? And if he picks out these + passages could not the Devil answer him by saying, "You, Mr. Beecher, are + like a vulture, a kind of buzzard, flying through the tainted air of + inspiration, and pouncing down upon the carrion. Why do you not fly like a + dove, and why do you not have the innocent ignorance of the dove, so that + you could light upon a carcass and imagine that you were surrounded by the + perfume of violets?" The fact is that good things in a book do not prove + that it is inspired, but the presence of bad things does prove that it is + not. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What was the real difficulty between you and Moses, + Colonel, a man who has been dead for thousands of years? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. We never had any difficulty. I have always taken pains to + say that Moses had nothing to do with the Pentateuch. Those books, in my + judgment, were written several centuries after Moses had become dust in + his unknown sepulchre. No doubt Moses was quite a man in his day, if he + ever existed at all. Some people say that Moses is exactly the same as + "law-giver;" that is to say, as Legislature, that is to say as Congress. + Imagine somebody in the future as regarding the Congress of the United + States as one person! And then imagine that somebody endeavoring to prove + that Congress was always consistent. But, whether Moses lived or not makes + but little difference to me. I presume he filled the place and did the + work that he was compelled to do, and although according to the account + God had much to say to him with regard to the making of altars, tongs, + snuffers and candlesticks, there is much left for nature still to tell. + Thinking of Moses as a man, admitting that he was above his fellows, that + he was in his day and generation a leader, and, in a certain narrow sense, + a patriot, that he was the founder of the Jewish people; that he found + them barbarians and endeavored to control them by thunder and lightning, + and found it necessary to pretend that he was in partnership with the + power governing the universe; that he took advantage of their ignorance + and fear, just as politicians do now, and as theologians always will, + still, I see no evidence that the man Moses was any nearer to God than his + descendants, who are still warring against the Philistines in every + civilized part of the globe. Moses was a believer in slavery, in polygamy, + in wars of extermination, in religious persecution and intolerance and in + almost everything that is now regarded with loathing, contempt and scorn. + The Jehovah of whom he speaks violated, or commands the violation of at + least nine of the Ten Commandments he gave. There is one thing, however, + that can be said of Moses that cannot be said of any person who now + insists that he was inspired, and that is, he was in advance of his time. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the Buckner Bill for the + colonization of the negroes in Mexico? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Where does Mr. Buckner propose to colonize the white + people, and what right has he to propose the colonization of six millions + of people? Should we not have other bills to colonize the Germans, the + Swedes, the Irish, and then, may be, another bill to drive the Chinese + into the sea? Where do we get the right to say that the negroes must + emigrate? + </p> + <p> + All such schemes will, in my judgment, prove utterly futile. Perhaps the + history of the world does not give an instance of the emigration of six + millions of people. Notwithstanding the treatment that Ireland has + received from England, which may be designated as a crime of three hundred + years, the Irish still love Ireland. All the despotism in the world will + never crush out of the Irish heart the love of home—the adoration of + the old sod. The negroes of the South have certainly suffered enough to + drive them into other countries; but after all, they prefer to stay where + they were born. They prefer to live where their ancestors were slaves, + where fathers and mothers were sold and whipped; and I don't believe it + will be possible to induce a majority of them to leave that land. Of + course, thousands may leave, and in process of time millions may go, but I + don't believe emigration will ever equal their natural increase. As the + whites of the South become civilized the reason for going will be less and + less. + </p> + <p> + I see no reason why the white and black men cannot live together in the + same land, under the same flag. The beauty of liberty is you cannot have + it unless you give it away, and the more you give away the more you have. + I know that my liberty is secure only because others are free. + </p> + <p> + I am perfectly willing to live in a country with such men as Frederick + Douglass and Senator Bruce. I have always preferred a good, clever black + man to a mean white man, and I am of the opinion that I shall continue in + that preference. Now, if we could only have a colonization bill that would + get rid of all the rowdies, all the rascals and hypocrites, I would like + to see it carried out, thought some people might insist that it would + amount to a repudiation of the national debt and that hardly enough would + be left to pay the interest. No, talk as we will, the colored people + helped to save this Nation. They have been at all times and in all places + the friends of our flag; a flag that never really protected them. And for + my part, I am willing that they should stand forever beneath that flag, + the equal in rights of all other people. Politically, if any black men are + to be sent away, I want it understood that each one is to be accompanied + by a Democrat, so that the balance of power, especially in New York, will + not be disturbed. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I notice that leading Republican newspapers are advising + General Garfield to cut loose from the machine in politics; what do you + regard as the machine? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. All defeated candidates regard the persons who defeated + them as constituting a machine, and always imagine that there is some + wicked conspiracy at the bottom of the machine. Some of the recent + reformers regard the people who take part in the early stages of a + political campaign—who attend caucuses and primaries, who speak of + politics to their neighbors, as members and parts of the machine, and + regard only those as good and reliable American citizens who take no part + whatever, simply reserving the right to grumble after the work has been + done by others. Not much can be accomplished in politics without an + organization, and the moment an organization is formed, and, you might + say, just a little before, leading spirits will be developed. Certain men + will take the lead, and the weaker men will in a short time, unless they + get all the loaves and fishes, denounce the whole thing as a machine, and, + to show how thoroughly and honestly they detest the machine in politics, + will endeavor to organize a little machine themselves. General Garfield + has been in politics for many years. He knows the principal men in both + parties. He knows the men who have not only done something, but who are + capable of doing something, and such men will not, in my opinion, be + neglected. I do not believe that General Garfield will do any act + calculated to divide the Republican party. No thoroughly great man carries + personal prejudice into the administration of public affairs. Of course, + thousands of people will be prophesying that this man is to be snubbed and + another to be paid; but, in my judgment, after the 4th of March most + people will say that General Garfield has used his power wisely and that + he has neither sought nor shunned men simply because he wished to pay + debts—either of love or hatred. + </p> + <p> + —Washington correspondent, <i>Brooklyn Eagle</i>, January 31, 1881. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0019" id="link0019"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + HADES, DELAWARE AND FREETHOUGHT. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Now that a lull has come in politics, I thought I would + come and see what is going on in the religious world? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Well, from what little I learn, there has not been much + going on during the last year. There are five hundred and twenty- six + Congregational Churches in Massachusetts, and two hundred of these + churches have not received a new member for an entire year, and the others + have scarcely held their own. In Illinois there are four hundred and + eighty-three Presbyterian Churches, and they have now fewer members than + they had in 1879, and of the four hundred and eighty-three, one hundred + and eighty-three have not received a single new member for twelve months. + A report has been made, under the auspices of the Pan-Presbyterian + Council, to the effect that there are in the whole world about three + millions of Presbyterians. This is about one-fifth of one per cent. of the + inhabitants of the world. The probability is that of the three million + nominal Presbyterians, not more than two or three hundred thousand + actually believe the doctrine, and of the two or three hundred thousand, + not more than five or six hundred have any true conception of what the + doctrine is. As the Presbyterian Church has only been able to induce + one-fifth of one per cent. of the people to even call themselves + Presbyterians, about how long will it take, at this rate, to convert + mankind? The fact is, there seems to be a general lull along the entire + line, and just at present very little is being done by the orthodox people + to keep their fellow-citizens out of hell. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you really think that the orthodox people now believe + in the old doctrine of eternal punishment, and that they really think + there is a kind of hell that our ancestors so carefully described? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I am afraid that the old idea is dying out, and that many + Christians are slowly giving up the consolations naturally springing from + the old belief. Another terrible blow to the old infamy is the fact that + in the revised New Testament the word Hades has been substituted. As + nobody knows exactly what Hades means, it will not be quite so easy to + frighten people at revivals by threatening them with something that they + don't clearly understand. After this, when the impassioned orator cries + out that all the unconverted will be sent to Hades, the poor sinners, + instead of getting frightened, will begin to ask each other what and where + that is. It will take many years of preaching to clothe that word in all + the terrors and horrors, pains, and penalties and pangs of hell. Hades is + a compromise. It is a concession to the philosophy of our day. It is a + graceful acknowledgment to the growing spirit of investigation, that hell, + after all, is a barbaric mistake. Hades is the death of revivals. It + cannot be used in song. It won't rhyme with anything with the same force + that hell does. It is altogether more shadowy than hot. It is not + associated with brimstone and flame. It sounds somewhat indistinct, + somewhat lonesome, a little desolate, but not altogether uncomfortable. + For revival purposes, Hades is simply useless, and few conversions will be + made in the old way under the revised Testament. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you really think that the church is losing ground? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I am not, as you probably know, connected with any orthodox + organization, and consequently have to rely upon them for my information. + If they can be believed, the church is certainly in an extremely bad + condition. I find that the Rev. Dr. Cuyler, only a few days ago, speaking + of the religious condition of Brooklyn —and Brooklyn, you know, has + been called the City of Churches— states that the great mass of that + Christian city was out of Christ, and that more professing Christians went + to the theatre than to the prayer meeting. This, certainly, from their + standpoint, is a most terrible declaration. Brooklyn, you know, is one of + the great religious centres of the world—a city in which nearly all + the people are engaged either in delivering or in hearing sermons; a city + filled with the editors of religious periodicals; a city of prayer and + praise; and yet, while prayer meetings are free, the theatres, with the + free list entirely suspended, catch more Christians than the churches; and + this happens while all the pulpits thunder against the stage, and the + stage remains silent as to the pulpit. At the same meeting in which the + Rev. Dr. Cuyler made his astounding statements the Rev. Mr. Pentecost was + the bearer of the happy news that four out of five persons living in the + city of Brooklyn were going down to hell with no God and with no hope. If + he had read the revised Testament he would have said "Hades," and the + effect of the statement would have been entirely lost. If four-fifths of + the people of that great city are destined to eternal pain, certainly we + cannot depend upon churches for the salvation of the world. At the meeting + of the Brooklyn pastors they were in doubt as to whether they should + depend upon further meetings, or upon a day of fasting and prayer for the + purpose of converting the city. + </p> + <p> + In my judgment, it would be much better to devise ways and means to keep a + good many people from fasting in Brooklyn. If they had more meat, they + could get along with less meeting. If fasting would save a city, there are + always plenty of hungry folks even in that Christian town. The real + trouble with the church of to-day is, that it is behind the intelligence + of the people. Its doctrines no longer satisfy the brains of the + nineteenth century; and if the church proposes to hold its power, it must + lose its superstitions. The day of revivals is gone. Only the ignorant and + unthinking can hereafter be impressed by hearing the orthodox creed. Fear + has in it no reformatory power, and the more intelligent the world grows + the more despicable and contemptible the doctrine of eternal misery will + become. The tendency of the age is toward intellectual liberty, toward + personal investigation. Authority is no longer taken for truth. People are + beginning to find that all the great and good are not dead—that some + good people are alive, and that the demonstrations of to-day are fully + equal to the mistaken theories of the past. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How are you getting along with Delaware? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. First rate. You know I have been wondering where Comegys + came from, and at last I have made the discovery. I was told the other day + by a gentleman from Delaware that many years ago Colonel Hazelitt died; + that Colonel Hazelitt was an old Revolutionary officer, and that when they + were digging his grave they dug up Comegys. Back of that no one knows + anything of his history. The only thing they know about him certainly, is, + that he has never changed one of his views since he was found, and that he + never will. I am inclined to think, however, that he lives in a community + congenial to him. For instance, I saw in a paper the other day that within + a radius of thirty miles around Georgetown, Delaware, there are about two + hundred orphan and friendless children. These children, it seems, were + indentured to Delaware farmers by the managers of orphan asylums and other + public institutions in and about Philadelphia. It is stated in the paper, + that: + </p> + <p> + "Many of these farmers are rough task-masters, and if a boy fails to + perform the work of an adult, he is almost certain to be cruelly treated, + half starved, and in the coldest weather wretchedly clad. If he does the + work, his life is not likely to be much happier, for as a rule he will + receive more kicks than candy. The result in either case is almost certain + to be wrecked constitutions, dwarfed bodies, rounded shoulders, and limbs + crippled or rendered useless by frost or rheumatism. The principal diet of + these boys is corn pone. A few days ago, Constable W. H. Johnston went to + the house of Reuben Taylor, and on entering the sitting room his attention + was attracted by the moans of its only occupant, a little colored boy, who + was lying on the hearth in front of the fireplace. The boy's head was + covered with ashes from the fire, and he did not pay the slightest + attention to the visitor, until Johnston asked what made him cry. Then the + little fellow sat up and drawing on old rag off his foot said, 'Look + there.' The sight that met Johnston's eye was horrible beyond description. + The poor boy's feet were so horribly frozen that the flesh had dropped off + the toes until the bones protruded. The flesh on the sides, bottoms, and + tops of his feet was swollen until the skin cracked in many places, and + the inflamed flesh was sloughing off in great flakes. The frost-bitten + flesh extended to his knees, the joints of which were terribly inflamed. + The right one had already begun suppurating. This poor little black boy, + covered with nothing but a cotton shirt, drilling pants, a pair of nearly + worn out brogans and a battered old hat, on the morning of December 30th, + the coldest day of the season, when the mercury was seventeen degrees + below zero, in the face of a driving snow storm, was sent half a mile from + home to protect his master's unshucked corn from the depredations of + marauding cows and crows. He remained standing around in the snow until + four o'clock, then he drove the cows home, received a piece of cold corn + pone, and was sent out in the snow again to chop stove wood till dark. + Having no bed, he slept that night in front of the fireplace, with his + frozen feet buried in the ashes. Dr. C. H. Richards found it necessary to + cut off the boy's feet as far back as the ankle and the instep." + </p> + <p> + This was but one case in several. Personally, I have no doubt that Mr. + Reuben Taylor entirely agrees with Chief Justice Comegys on the great + question of blasphemy, and probably nothing would so gratify Mr. Reuben + Taylor as to see some man in a Delaware jail for the crime of having + expressed an honest thought. No wonder that in the State of Delaware the + Christ of intellectual liberty has been crucified between the pillory and + the whipping-post. Of course I know that there are thousands of most + excellent people in that State—people who believe in intellectual + liberty, and who only need a little help—and I am doing what I can + in that direction —to repeal the laws that now disgrace the statute + book of that little commonwealth. I have seen many people from that State + lately who really wish that Colonel Hazelitt had never died. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What has the press generally said with regard to the + action of Judge Comegys? Do they, so far as you know, justify his charge? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. A great many papers having articles upon the subject have + been sent to me. A few of the religious papers seem to think that the + Judge did the best he knew, and there is one secular paper called the <i>Evening + News</i>, published at Chester, Pa., that thinks "that the rebuke from so + high a source of authority will have a most excellent effect, and will + check religious blasphemers from parading their immoral creeds before the + people." The editor of this paper should at once emigrate to the State of + Delaware, where he properly belongs. He is either a native of Delaware, or + most of his subscribers are citizens of that country; or, it may be that + he is a lineal descendant of some Hessian, who deserted during the + Revolutionary war. Most of the newspapers in the United States are + advocates of mental freedom. Probably nothing on earth has been so potent + for good as an untrammeled, fearless press. Among the papers of importance + there is not a solitary exception. No leading journal in the United States + can be found upon the side of intellectual slavery. Of course, a few rural + sheets edited by gentlemen, as Mr. Greeley would say, "whom God in his + inscrutable wisdom had allowed to exist," may be found upon the other + side, and may be small enough, weak enough and mean enough to pander to + the lowest and basest prejudices of their most ignorant subscribers. These + editors disgrace their profession and exert about the same influence upon + the heads as upon the pockets of their subscribers —that is to say, + they get little and give less. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you not think after all, the people who are in favor + of having you arrested for blasphemy, are acting in accordance with the + real spirit of the Old and New Testaments? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course, they act in exact accordance with many of the + commands in the Old Testament, and in accordance with several passages in + the New. At the same time, it may be said that they violate passages in + both. If the Old Testament is true, and if it is the inspired word of God, + of course, an Infidel ought not be allowed to live; and if the New + Testament is true, an unbeliever should not be permitted to speak. There + are many passages, though, in the New Testament, that should protect even + an Infidel. Among them is this: "Do unto others as ye would that others + should do unto you." But that is a passage that has probably had as little + effect upon the church as any other in the Bible. So far as I am + concerned, I am willing to adopt that passage, and I am willing to extend + to every other human being every right that I claim for myself. If the + churches would act upon this principle, if they would say—every + soul, every mind, may think and investigate for itself; and around all, + and over all, shall be thrown the sacred shield of liberty, I should be on + their side. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How do you stand with the clergymen, and what is their + opinion of you and of your views? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Most of them envy me; envy my independence; envy my + success; think that I ought to starve; that the people should not hear me; + say that I do what I do for money, for popularity; that I am actuated by + hatred of all that is good and tender and holy in human nature; think that + I wish to tear down the churches, destroy all morality and goodness, and + usher in the reign of crime and chaos. They know that shepherds are + unnecessary in the absence of wolves, and it is to their interest to + convince their sheep that they, the sheep, need protection. This they are + willing to give them for half the wool. No doubt, most of these minsters + are honest, and are doing what they consider their duty. Be this as it + may, they feel the power slipping from their hands. They know that the + idea is slowly growing that they are not absolutely necessary for the + protection of society. They know that the intellectual world cares little + for what they say, and that the great tide of human progress flows on + careless of their help or hindrance. So long as they insist upon the + inspiration of the Bible, they are compelled to take the ground that + slavery was once a divine institution; they are forced to defend cruelties + that would shock the heart of a savage, and besides, they are bound to + teach the eternal horror of everlasting punishment. + </p> + <p> + They poison the minds of children; they deform the brain and pollute the + imagination by teaching the frightful and infamous dogma of endless + misery. Even the laws of Delaware shock the enlightened public of to-day. + In that State they simply fine and imprison a man for expressing his + honest thoughts; and yet, if the churches are right, God will damn a man + forever for the same offence. The brain and heart of our time cannot be + satisfied with the ancient creeds. The Bible must be revised again. Most + of the creeds must be blotted out. Humanity must take the place of + theology. Intellectual liberty must stand in every pulpit. There must be + freedom in all the pews, and every human soul must have the right to + express its honest thought. + </p> + <p> + —Washington correspondent, <i>Brooklyn Eagle</i>, March 19, 1881. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0020" id="link0020"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + A REPLY TO THE REV. MR. LANSING.* + </h2> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + [* Rev. Isaac J. Lansing of Meriden, Conn., recently + denounced Col. Robert G. Ingersoll from the pulpit of the + Meriden Methodist Church, and had the Opera House closed + against him. This led a <i>Union</i> reporter to show Colonel + Ingersoll what Mr. Lansing had said and to interrogate him + with the following result.] +</pre> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Did you favor the sending of obscene matter through the + mails as alleged by the Rev. Mr. Lansing? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course not, and no honest man ever thought that I did. + This charge is too malicious and silly to be answered. Mr. Lansing knows + better. He has made this charge many times and he will make it again. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is it a fact that there are thousands of clergymen in the + country whom you would fear to meet in fair debate? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. No; the fact is I would like to meet them all in one. The + pulpit is not burdened with genius. There a few great men engaged in + preaching, but they are not orthodox. I cannot conceive that a Freethinker + has anything to fear from the pulpit, except misrepresentation. Of course, + there are thousands of ministers too small to discuss with—ministers + who stand for nothing in the church—and with such clergymen I cannot + afford to discuss anything. If the Presbyterians, or the + Congregationalists, or the Methodists would select some man, and endorse + him as their champion, I would like to meet him in debate. Such a man I + will pay to discuss with me. I will give him most excellent wages, and pay + all the expenses at the discussion besides. There is but one safe course + for the ministers—they must assert. They must declare. They must + swear to it and stick to it, but they must not try to reason. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. You have never seen Rev. Mr. Lansing. To the people of + Meriden and thereabouts he is well-known. Judging from what has been told + you of his utterances and actions, what kind of a man would you take him + to be? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I would take him to be a Christian. He talks like one, and + he acts like one. If Christianity is right, Lansing is right. If salvation + depends upon belief, and if unbelievers are to be eternally damned, then + an Infidel has no right to speak. He should not be allowed to murder the + souls of his fellow-men. Lansing does the best he knows how. He thinks + that God hates an unbeliever, and he tries to act like God. Lansing knows + that he must have the right to slander a man whom God is to eternally + damn. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Mr. Lansing speaks of you as a wolf coming with fangs + sharpened by three hundred dollars a night to tear the lambs of his flock. + What do you say to that? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. All I have to say is, that I often get three times that + amount, and sometimes much more. I guess his lambs can take care of + themselves. I am not very fond of mutton anyway. Such talk Mr. Lansing + ought to be ashamed of. The idea that he is a shepherd —that he is + on guard—is simply preposterous. He has few sheep in his + congregation that know as little on the wolf question as he does. He ought + to know that his sheep support him—his sheep protect him; and + without the sheep poor Lansing would be devoured by the wolves himself. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Shall you sue the Opera House management for breach of + contract? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I guess not; but I may pay Lansing something for + advertising my lecture. I suppose Mr. Wilcox (who controls the Opera + House) did what he thought was right. I hear he is a good man. He probably + got a little frightened and began to think about the day of judgment. He + could not help it, and I cannot help laughing at him. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Those in Meriden who most strongly oppose you are radical + Republicans. Is it not a fact that you possess the confidence and + friendship of some of the most respected leaders of that party? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think that all the respectable ones are friends of mine. + I am a Republican because I believe in the liberty of the body, and I am + an Infidel because I believe in the liberty of the mind. There is no need + of freeing cages. Let us free the birds. If Mr. Lansing knew me, he would + be a great friend. He would probably annoy me by the frequency and length + of his visits. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. During the recent presidential campaign did any clergymen + denounce you for your teachings, that you are aware of? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Some did, but they would not if they had been running for + office on the Republican ticket. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is most needed in our public men? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Hearts and brains. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Would people be any more moral solely because of a + disbelief in orthodox teaching and in the Bible as an inspired book, in + your opinion? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes; if a man really believes that God once upheld slavery; + that he commanded soldiers to kill women and babes; that he believed in + polygamy; that he persecuted for opinion's sake; that he will punish + forever, and that he hates an unbeliever, the effect in my judgment will + be bad. It always has been bad. This belief built the dungeons of the + Inquisition. This belief made the Puritan murder the Quaker, and this + belief has raised the devil with Mr. Lansing. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you believe there will ever be a millennium, and if so + how will it come about? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It will probably start in Meriden, as I have been informed + that Lansing is going to leave. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is there anything else bearing upon the question at issue + or that would make good reading, that I have forgotten, that you would + like to say? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes. Good-bye. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Sunday Union</i>, New Haven, Conn., April 10, 1881. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0021" id="link0021"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + BEACONSFIELD, LENT AND REVIVALS. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What have you to say about the attack of Dr. Buckley on + you, and your lecture? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I never heard of Dr. Buckley until after I had lectured in + Brooklyn. He seems to think that it was extremely ill bred in me to + deliver a lecture on the "Liberty of Man, Woman and Child," during Lent. + Lent is just as good as any other part of the year, and no part can be too + good to do good. It was not a part of my object to hurt the feelings of + the Episcopalians and Catholics. If they think that there is some subtle + relation between hunger and heaven, or that faith depends upon, or is + strengthened by famine, or that veal, during Lent, is the enemy of virtue, + or that beef breeds blasphemy, while fish feeds faith—of course, all + this is nothing to me. They have a right to say that vice depends upon + victuals, sanctity on soup, religion on rice and chastity on cheese, but + they have no right to say that a lecture on liberty is an insult to them + because they are hungry. I suppose that Lent was instituted in memory of + the Savior's fast. At one time it was supposed that only a divine being + could live forty days without food. This supposition has been overthrown. + </p> + <p> + It has been demonstrated by Dr. Tanner to be utterly without foundation. + What possible good did it do the world for Christ to go without food for + forty days? Why should we follow such an example? As a rule, hungry people + are cross, contrary, obstinate, peevish and unpleasant. A good dinner puts + a man at peace with all the world—makes him generous, good natured + and happy. He feels like kissing his wife and children. The future looks + bright. He wants to help the needy. The good in him predominates, and he + wonders that any man was ever stingy or cruel. Your good cook is a + civilizer, and without good food, well prepared, intellectual progress is + simply impossible. Most of the orthodox creeds were born of bad cooking. + Bad food produced dyspepsia, and dyspepsia produced Calvinism, and + Calvinism is the cancer of Christianity. Oatmeal is responsible for the + worst features of Scotch Presbyterianism. Half cooked beans account for + the religion of the Puritans. Fried bacon and saleratus biscuit underlie + the doctrine of State Rights. Lent is a mistake, fasting is a blunder, and + bad cooking is a crime. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. It is stated that you went to Brooklyn while Beecher and + Talmage were holding revivals, and that you did so for the purpose of + breaking them up. How is this? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I had not the slightest idea of interfering with the + revivals. They amounted to nothing. They were not alive enough to be + killed. Surely one lecture could not destroy two revivals. Still, I think + that if all the persons engaged in the revivals had spent the same length + of time in cleaning the streets, the good result would have been more + apparent. The truth is, that the old way of converting people will have to + be abandoned. The Americans are getting hard to scare, and a revival + without the "scare" is scarcely worth holding. Such maniacs as Hammond and + the "Boy Preacher" fill asylums and terrify children. After saying what he + has about hell, Mr. Beecher ought to know that he is not the man to + conduct a revival. A revival sermon with hell left out—with the + brimstone gone—with the worm that never dies, dead, and the Devil + absent—is the broadest farce. Mr. Talmage believes in the ancient + way. With him hell is a burning reality. He can hear the shrieks and + groans. He is of that order of mind that rejoices in these things. If he + could only convince others, he would be a great revivalist. He cannot + terrify, he astonishes. He is the clown of the horrible—one of + Jehovah's jesters. I am not responsible for the revival failure in + Brooklyn. I wish I were. I would have the happiness of knowing that I had + been instrumental in preserving the sanity of my fellow-men. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How do you account for these attacks? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It was not so much what I said that excited the wrath of + the reverend gentlemen as the fact that I had a great house. They + contrasted their failure with my success. The fact is, the people are + getting tired of the old ideas. They are beginning to think for + themselves. Eternal punishment seems to them like eternal revenge. They + see that Christ could not atone for the sins of others; that belief ought + not to be rewarded and honest doubt punished forever; that good deeds are + better than bad creeds, and that liberty is the rightful heritage of every + soul. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Were you an admirer of Lord Beaconsfield? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In some respects. He was on our side during the war, and + gave it as his opinion that the Union would be preserved. Mr. Gladstone + congratulated Jefferson Davis on having founded a new nation. I shall + never forget Beaconsfield for his kindness, nor Gladstone for his malice. + Beaconsfield was an intellectual gymnast, a political athlete, one of the + most adroit men in the world. He had the persistence of his race. In spite + of the prejudices of eighteen hundred years, he rose to the highest + position that can be occupied by a citizen. During his administration + England again became a Continental power and played her game of European + chess. I have never regarded Beaconsfield as a man controlled by + principle, or by his heart. He was strictly a politician. He always acted + as though he thought the clubs were looking at him. He knew all the arts + belonging to his trade. He would have succeeded anywhere, if by + "succeeding" is meant the attainment of position and power. But after all, + such men are splendid failures. They give themselves and others a great + deal of trouble—they wear the tinsel crown of temporary success and + then fade from public view. They astonish the pit, they gain the applause + of the galleries, but when the curtain falls there is nothing left to + benefit mankind. Beaconsfield held convictions somewhat in contempt. He + had the imagination of the East united with the ambition of an Englishman. + With him, to succeed was to have done right. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of him as an author? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Most of his characters are like himself—puppets moved + by the string of self-interest. The men are adroit, the women mostly + heartless. They catch each other with false bait. They have great worldly + wisdom. Their virtue and vice are mechanical. They have hearts like clocks—filled + with wheels and springs. The author winds them up. In his novels Disræli + allows us to enter the greenroom of his heart. We see the ropes, the + pulleys and the old masks. In all things, in politics and in literature, + he was cold, cunning, accurate, able and successful. His books will, in a + little while, follow their author to their grave. After all, the good will + live longest. + </p> + <p> + —Washington correspondent, <i>Brooklyn Eagle</i>, April 24, 1881. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0022" id="link0022"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + ANSWERING THE NEW YORK MINISTERS.* + </h2> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + [* Ever since Colonel Ingersoll began the delivery of his + lecture called <i>The Great Infidels</i>, the ministers of the + country have made him the subject of special attack. One + week ago last Sunday the majority of the leading ministers + in New York made replies to Ingersoll's latest lecture. + What he has to say to these replies will be found in a + report of an interview with Colonel Ingersoll. + + No man is harder to pin down for a long talk than the + Colonel. He is so beset with visitors and eager office + seekers anxious for help, that he can hardly find five + minutes unoccupied during an entire day. Through the shelter + of a private room and the guardianship of a stout colored + servant, the Colonel was able to escape the crowd of seekers + after his personal charity long enough to give some time to + answer some of the ministerial arguments advanced against + him in New York.] +</pre> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Have you seen the attacks made upon you by certain + ministers of New York, published in the <i>Herald</i> last Sunday? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, I read, or heard read, what was in Monday's <i>Herald</i>. + I do not know that you could hardly call them attacks. They are + substantially a repetition of what the pulpit has been saying for a great + many hundred years, and what the pulpit will say just so long as men are + paid for suppressing truth and for defending superstition. One of these + gentlemen tells the lambs of his flock that three thousand men and a few + women—probably with quite an emphasis on the word "Few"—gave + one dollar each to hear their Maker cursed and their Savior ridiculed. + Probably nothing is so hard for the average preacher to bear as the fact + that people are not only willing to hear the other side, but absolutely + anxious to pay for it. The dollar that these people paid hurt their + feelings vastly more than what was said after they were in. Of course, it + is a frightful commentary on the average intellect of the pulpit that a + minister cannot get so large an audience when he preaches for nothing, as + an Infidel can draw at a dollar a head. If I depended upon a contribution + box, or upon passing a saucer that would come back to the stage enriched + with a few five cent pieces, eight or ten dimes, and a lonesome quarter, + these gentlemen would, in all probability, imagine Infidelity was not to + be feared. + </p> + <p> + The churches were all open on that Sunday, and all could go who desired. + Yet they were not full, and the pews were nearly as empty of people as the + pulpit of ideas. The truth is, the story is growing old, the ideas + somewhat moss-covered, and everything has a wrinkled and withered + appearance. This gentleman says that these people went to hear their Maker + cursed and their Savior ridiculed. Is it possible that in a city where so + many steeples pierce the air, and hundreds of sermons are preached every + Sunday, there are three thousand men, and a few women, so anxious to hear + "their Maker cursed and their Savior ridiculed" that they are willing to + pay a dollar each? The gentleman knew that nobody cursed anybody's Maker. + He knew that the statement was utterly false and without the slightest + foundation. He also knew that nobody had ridiculed the Savior of anybody, + but, on the contrary, that I had paid a greater tribute to the character + of Jesus Christ than any minister in New York has the capacity to do. + Certainly it is not cursing the Maker of anybody to say that the God + described in the Old Testament is not the real God. Certainly it is not + cursing God to declare that the real God never sanctioned slavery or + polygamy, or commanded wars of extermination, or told a husband to + separate from his wife if she differed with him in religion. The people + who say these things of God—if there is any God at all—do what + little there is in their power, unwittingly of course, to destroy his + reputation. But I have done something to rescue the reputation of the + Deity from the slanders of the pulpit. If there is any God, I expect to + find myself credited on the heavenly books for my defence of him. I did + say that our civilization is due not to piety, but to Infidelity. I did + say that every great reformer had been denounced as an Infidel in his day + and generation. I did say that Christ was an Infidel, and that he was + treated in his day very much as the orthodox preachers treat an honest man + now. I did say that he was tried for blasphemy and crucified by bigots. I + did say that he hated and despised the church of his time, and that he + denounced the most pious people of Jerusalem as thieves and vipers. And I + suggested that should he come again he might have occasion to repeat the + remarks that he then made. At the same time I admitted that there are + thousands and thousands of Christians who are exceedingly good people. I + never did pretend that the fact that a man was a Christian even tended to + show that he was a bad man. Neither have I ever insisted that the fact + that a man is an Infidel even tends to show what, in other respects, his + character is. But I always have said, and I always expect to say, that a + Christian who does not believe in absolute intellectual liberty is a curse + to mankind, and that an Infidel who does believe in absolute intellectual + liberty is a blessing to this world. We cannot expect all Infidels to be + good, nor all Christians to be bad, and we might make some mistakes even + if we selected these people ourselves. It is admitted by the Christians + that Christ made a great mistake when he selected Judas. This was a + mistake of over eight per cent. + </p> + <p> + Chaplain Newman takes pains to compare some great Christians with some + great Infidels. He compares Washington with Julian, and insists, I + suppose, that Washington was a great Christian. Certainly he is not very + familiar with the history of Washington, or he never would claim that he + was particularly distinguished in his day for what is generally known as + vital piety. That he went through the ordinary forms of Christianity + nobody disputes. That he listened to sermons without paying any particular + attention to them, no one will deny. Julian, of course, was somewhat + prejudiced against Christianity, but that he was one of the greatest men + of antiquity no one acquainted with the history of Rome can honestly + dispute. When he was made emperor he found at the palace hundreds of + gentlemen who acted as barbers, hair-combers, and brushers for the + emperor. He dismissed them all, remarking that he was able to wash + himself. These dismissed office-holders started the story that he was + dirty in his habits, and a minister of the nineteenth century was found + silly enough to believe the story. Another thing that probably got him + into disrepute in that day, he had no private chaplains. As a matter of + fact, Julian was forced to pretend that he was a Christian in order to + save his life. The Christians of that day were of such a loving nature + that any man who differed with them was forced to either fall a victim to + their ferocity or seek safety in subterfuge. The real crime that Julian + committed, and the only one that has burned itself into the very heart and + conscience of the Christian world, is, that he transferred the revenues of + the Christian churches to heathen priests. Whoever stands between a priest + and his salary will find that he has committed the unpardonable sin + commonly known as the sin against the Holy Ghost. + </p> + <p> + This gentleman also compares Luther with Voltaire. If he will read the + life of Luther by Lord Brougham, he will find that in his ordinary + conversation he was exceedingly low and vulgar, and that no respectable + English publisher could be found who would soil paper with the + translation. If he will take the pains to read an essay by Macaulay, he + will find that twenty years after the death of Luther there were more + Catholics than when he was born. And that twenty years after the death of + Voltaire there were millions less than when he was born. If he will take + just a few moments to think, he will find that the last victory of + Protestantism was in Holland; that there has never been one since, and + will never be another. If he would really like to think, and enjoy for a + few moments the luxury of having an idea, let him ponder for a little + while over the instructive fact that languages having their root in the + Latin have generally been spoken in Catholic countries, and that those + languages having their root in the ancient German are now mostly spoken by + people of Protestant proclivities. It may occur to him, after thinking of + this a while, that there is something deeper in the question than he has + as yet perceived. Luther's last victory, as I said before, was in Holland; + but the victory of Voltaire goes on from day to day. Protestantism is not + holding its own with Catholicism, even in the United States. I saw the + other day the statistics, I believe, of the city of Chicago, showing that, + while the city had increased two or three hundred per cent., Protestantism + had lagged behind at the rate of twelve per cent. I am willing for one, to + have the whole question depend upon a comparison of the worth and work of + Voltaire and Luther. It may be, too, that the gentleman forgot to tell us + that Luther himself gave consent to a person high in office to have two + wives, but prudently suggested to him that he had better keep it as still + as possible. Luther was, also, a believer in a personal Devil. He thought + that deformed children had been begotten by an evil spirit. On one + occasion he told a mother that, in his judgment, she had better drown her + child; that he had no doubt that the Devil was its father. This same + Luther made this observation: "Universal toleration is universal error, + and universal error is universal hell." From this you will see that he was + an exceedingly good man, but mistaken upon many questions. So, too, he + laughed at the Copernican system, and wanted to know if those fool + astronomers could undo the work of God. He probably knew as little about + science as the reverend gentleman does about history. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Does he compare any other Infidels with Christians? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Oh, yes; he compares Lord Bacon with Diderot. I have never + claimed that Diderot was a saint. I have simply insisted that he was a + great man; that he was grand enough to say that "incredulity is the + beginning of philosophy;" that he had sense enough to know that the God + described by the Catholics and Protestants of his day was simply an + impossible monster; and that he also had the brain to see that the little + selfish heaven occupied by a few monks and nuns and idiots they had + fleeced, was hardly worth going to; in other words, that he was a man of + common sense, greatly in advance of his time, and that he did what he + could to increase the sum of human enjoyment to the end that there might + be more happiness in this world. + </p> + <p> + The gentleman compares him with Lord Bacon, and yet, if he will read the + trials of that day—I think in the year 1620—he will find that + the Christian Lord Bacon, the pious Lord Bacon, was charged with receiving + pay for his opinions, and, in some instances, pay from both sides; that + the Christian Lord Bacon, at first upon his honor as a Christian lord, + denied the whole business; that afterward the Christian Lord Bacon, upon + his honor as a Christian lord, admitted the truth of the whole business, + and that, therefore, the Christian Lord Bacon was convicted and sentenced + to pay a fine of forty thousand pounds, and rendered infamous and + incapable of holding any office. Now, understand me, I do not think Bacon + took bribes because he was a Christian, because there have been many + Christian judges perfectly honest; but, if the statement of the reverend + gentlemen of New York is true, his being a Christian did not prevent his + taking bribes. And right here allow me to thank the gentleman with all my + heart for having spoken of Lord Bacon in this connection. I have always + admired the genius of Bacon, and have always thought of his fall with an + aching heart, and would not now have spoken of his crime had not his + character been flung in my face by a gentleman who asks his God to kill me + for having expressed my honest thought. + </p> + <p> + The same gentleman compares Newton with Spinoza. In the first place, there + is no ground of parallel. Newton was a very great man and a very justly + celebrated mathematician. As a matter of fact, he is not celebrated for + having discovered the law of gravitation. That was known for thousands of + years before he was born; and if the reverend gentleman would read a + little more he would find that Newton's discovery was not that there is + such a law as gravitation, but that bodies attract each other "with a + force proportional directly to the quantity of matter they contain, and + inversely to the squares of their distances." I do not think he made the + discoveries on account of his Christianity. Laplace was certainly in many + respects as great a mathematician and astronomer, but he was not a + Christian. + </p> + <p> + Descartes was certainly not much inferior to Newton as a mathematician, + and thousands insist that he was his superior; yet he was not a Christian. + Euclid, if I remember right, was not a Christian, and yet he had quite a + turn for mathematics. As a matter of fact, Christianity got its idea of + algebra from the Mohammedans, and, without algebra, astronomical knowledge + of to-day would have been impossible. Christianity did not even invent + figures. We got those from the Arabs. The very word "algebra" is Arabic. + The decimal system, I believe, however, was due to a German, but whether + he was a Christian or not, I do not know. + </p> + <p> + We find that the Chinese calculated eclipses long before Christ was born; + and, exactness being the rule at that time, there is an account of two + astronomers having been beheaded for failing to tell the coming of an + eclipse to the minute; yet they were not Christians. There is another fact + connected with Newton, and that is that he wrote a commentary on the Book + of Revelation. The probability is that a sillier commentary was never + written. It was so perfectly absurd and laughable that some one—I + believe it was Voltaire—said that while Newton had excited the envy + of the intellectual world by his mathematical accomplishments, it had + gotten even with him the moment his commentaries were published. Spinoza + was not a mathematician, particularly. He was a metaphysician, an honest + thinker, whose influence is felt, and will be felt so long as these great + questions have the slightest interest for the human brain. + </p> + <p> + He also compares Chalmers with Hume. Chalmers gained his notoriety from + preaching what are known as the astronomical sermons, and, I suppose, was + quite a preacher in his day. + </p> + <p> + But Hume was a thinker, and his works will live for ages after Mr. + Chalmers' sermons will have been forgotten. Mr. Chalmers has never been + prominent enough to have been well known by many people. He may have been + an exceedingly good man, and derived, during his life, great consolation + from a belief in the damnation of infants. + </p> + <p> + Mr. Newman also compares Wesley with Thomas Paine. When Thomas Paine was + in favor of human liberty, Wesley was against it. Thomas Paine wrote a + pamphlet called "Common Sense," urging the colonies to separate themselves + from Great Britain. Wesley wrote a treatise on the other side. He was the + enemy of human liberty; and if his advice could have been followed we + would have been the colonies of Great Britain still. We never would have + had a President in need of a private chaplain. Mr. Wesley had not a + scientific mind. He preached a sermon once on the cause and cure of + earthquakes, taking the ground that earthquakes were caused by sins, and + that the only way to stop them was to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. He + also laid down some excellent rules for rearing children, that is, from a + Methodist standpoint. His rules amounted to about this: + </p> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + <i>First</i>. Never give them what they want. + <i>Second</i>. Never give them what you intend to give them, at the time + they want it. + <i>Third</i>. Break their wills at the earliest possible moment. +</pre> + <p> + Mr. Wesley made every family an inquisition, every father and mother + inquisitors, and all the children helpless victims. One of his homes would + give an exceedingly vivid idea of hell. At the same time, Mr. Wesley was a + believer in witches and wizards, and knew all about the Devil. At his + request God performed many miracles. On several occasions he cured his + horse of lameness. On others, dissipated Mr. Wesley's headaches. Now and + then he put off rain on account of a camp meeting, and at other times + stopped the wind blowing at the special request of Mr. Wesley. I have no + doubt that Mr. Wesley was honest in all this,—just as honest as he + was mistaken. And I also admit that he was the founder of a church that + does extremely well in new countries, and that thousands of Methodists + have been exceedingly good men. But I deny that he ever did anything for + human liberty. While Mr. Wesley was fighting the Devil and giving his + experience with witches and wizards, Thomas Paine helped to found a free + nation, helped to enrich the air with another flag. Wesley was right on + one thing, though. He was opposed to slavery, and, I believe, called it + the sum of all villainies. I have always been obliged to him for that. I + do not think he said it because he was a Methodist; but Methodism, as he + understood it, did not prevent his saying it, and Methodism as others + understood it, did not prevent men from being slaveholders, did not + prevent them from selling babes from mothers, and in the name of God + beating the naked back of toil. I think, on the whole, Paine did more for + the world than Mr. Wesley. The difference between an average Methodist and + an average Episcopalian is not worth quarreling about. But the difference + between a man who believes in despotism and one who believes in liberty is + almost infinite. Wesley changed Episcopalians into Methodists; Paine + turned lickspittles into men. Let it be understood, once for all, that I + have never claimed that Paine was perfect. I was very glad that the + reverend gentleman admitted that he was a patriot and the foe of tyrants; + that he sympathized with the oppressed, and befriended the helpless; that + he favored religious toleration, and that he weakened the power of the + Catholic Church. I am glad that he made these admissions. Whenever it can + be truthfully said of a man that he loved his country, hated tyranny, + sympathized with the oppressed, and befriended the helpless, nothing more + is necessary. If God can afford to damn such a man, such a man can afford + to be damned. While Paine was the foe of tyrants, Christians were the + tyrants. When he sympathized with the oppressed, the oppressed were the + victims of Christians. When he befriended the helpless, the helpless were + the victims of Christians. Paine never founded an inquisition; never + tortured a human being; never hoped that anybody's tongue would be + paralyzed, and was always opposed to private chaplains. + </p> + <p> + It might be well for the reverend gentleman to continue his comparisons, + and find eminent Christians to put, for instance, along with Humboldt, the + Shakespeare of science; somebody by the side of Darwin, as a naturalist; + some gentleman in England to stand with Tyndall, or Huxley; some Christian + German to stand with Haeckel and Helmholtz. May be he knows some Christian + statesman that he would compare with Gambetta. I would advise him to + continue his parallels. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What have you to say of the Rev. Dr. Fulton? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The Rev. Dr. Fulton is a great friend of mine. I am + extremely sorry to find that he still believes in a personal Devil, and I + greatly regret that he imagines that this Devil has so much power that he + can take possession of a human being and deprive God of their services. It + is in sorrow and not in anger, that I find that he still believes in this + ancient superstition. I also regret that he imagines that I am leading + young men to eternal ruin. It occurs to me that if there is an infinite + God, he ought not to allow anybody to lead young men to eternal ruin. If + anything I have said, or am going to say, has a tendency to lead young men + to eternal ruin, I hope that if there is a God with the power to prevent + me, that he will use it. Dr. Fulton admits that in politics I am on the + right side. I presume he makes this concession because he is a Republican. + I am in favor of universal education, of absolute intellectual liberty. I + am in favor, also, of equal rights to all. As I have said before we have + spent millions and millions of dollars and rivers of blood to free the + bodies of men; in other words, we have been freeing the cages. My + proposition now is to give a little liberty to the birds. I am not willing + to stop where a man can simply reap the fruit of his hand. I wish him, + also, to enjoy the liberty of his brain. I am not against any truth in the + New Testament. I did say that I objected to religion because it made + enemies and not friends. The Rev. Dr. says that is one reason why he likes + religion. Dr. Fulton tells me that the Bible is the gift of God to man. He + also tells me that the Bible is true, and that God is its author. If the + Bible is true and God is its author, then God was in favor of slavery four + thousand years ago. He was also in favor of polygamy and religious + intolerance. In other words, four thousand years ago he occupied the exact + position the Devil is supposed to occupy now. If the Bible teaches + anything it teaches man to enslave his brother, that is to say, if his + brother is a heathen. The God of the Bible always hated heathens. Dr. + Fulton also says that the Bible is the basis of all law. Yet, if the + Legislature of New York would re-enact next winter the Mosaic code, the + members might consider themselves lucky if they were not hung upon their + return home. Probably Dr. Fulton thinks that had it not been for the Ten + Commandments, nobody would ever have thought that stealing was wrong. I + have always had an idea that men objected to stealing because the + industrious did not wish to support the idle; and I have a notion that + there has always been a law against murder, because a large majority of + people have always objected to being murdered. If he will read his Old + Testament with care, he will find that God violated most of his own + commandments—all except that "Thou shalt worship no other God before + me," and, may be, the commandment against work on the Sabbath day. With + these two exceptions I am satisfied that God himself violated all the + rest. He told his chosen people to rob the Gentiles; that violated the + commandment against stealing. He said himself that he had sent out lying + spirits; that certainly was a violation of another commandment. He ordered + soldiers to kill men, women and babes; that was a violation of another. He + also told them to divide the maidens among the soldiers; that was a + substantial violation of another. One of the commandments was that you + should not covet your neighbor's property. In that commandment you will + find that a man's wife is put on an equality with his ox. Yet his chosen + people were allowed not only to covet the property of the Gentiles, but to + take it. If Dr. Fulton will read a little more, he will find that all the + good laws in the Decalogue had been in force in Egypt a century before + Moses was born. He will find that like laws and many better ones were in + force in India and China, long before Moses knew what a bulrush was. If he + will think a little while, he will find that one of the Ten Commandments, + the one on the subject of graven images, was bad. The result of that was + that Palestine never produced a painter, or a sculptor, and that no Jew + became famous in art until long after the destruction of Jerusalem. A + commandment that robs a people of painting and statuary is not a good one. + The idea of the Bible being the basis of law is almost too silly to be + seriously refuted. I admit that I did say that Shakespeare was the + greatest man who ever lived; and Dr. Fulton says in regard to this + statement, "What foolishness!" He then proceeds to insult his audience by + telling them that while many of them have copies of Shakespeare's works in + their houses, they have not read twenty pages of them. This fact may + account for their attending his church and being satisfied with that + sermon. I do not believe to-day that Shakespeare is more influential than + the Bible, but what influence Shakespeare has, is for good. No man can + read it without having his intellectual wealth increased. When you read + it, it is not necessary to throw away your reason. Neither will you be + damned if you do not understand it. It is a book that appeals to + everything in the human brain. In that book can be found the wisdom of all + ages. Long after the Bible has passed out of existence, the name of + Shakespeare will lead the intellectual roster of the world. Dr. Fulton + says there is not one work in the Bible that teaches that slavery or + polygamy is right. He also states that I know it. If language has meaning—if + words have sense, or the power to convey thought,—what did God mean + when he told the Israelites to buy of the heathen round about, and that + the heathen should be their bondmen and bondmaids forever? + </p> + <p> + What did God mean when he said, If a man strike his servant so he dies, he + should not be punished, because his servant was his money? Passages like + these can be quoted beyond the space that any paper is willing to give. + Yet the Rev. Dr. Fulton denies that the Old Testament upholds slavery. I + would like to ask him if the Old Testament is in favor of religious + toleration? If God wrote the Old Testament and afterward came upon the + earth as Jesus Christ, and taught a new religion, and the Jews crucified + him, was this not in accordance with his own law, and was he not, after + all, the victim of himself? + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What about the other ministers? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Well, I see in the <i>Herald</i> that some ten have said + that they would reply to me. I have selected the two, simply because they + came first. I think they are about as poor as any; and you know it is + natural to attack those who are the easiest answered. All these ministers + are now acting as my agents, and are doing me all the good they can by + saying all the bad things about me they can think of. They imagine that + their congregations have not grown, and they talk to them as though they + were living in the seventeenth instead of the nineteenth century. The + truth is, the pews are beyond the pulpit, and the modern sheep are now + protecting the shepherds. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Have you noticed a great change in public sentiment in + the last three or four years? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, I think there are ten times as many Infidels to- day + as there were ten years ago. I am amazed at the great change that has + taken place in public opinion. The churches are not getting along well. + There are hundreds and hundreds who have not had a new member in a year. + The young men are not satisfied with the old ideas. They find that the + church, after all, is opposed to learning; that it is the enemy of + progress; that it says to every young man, "Go slow. Don't allow your + knowledge to puff you up. Recollect that reason is a dangerous thing. You + had better be a little ignorant here for the sake of being an angel + hereafter, than quite a smart young man and get damned at last." The + church warns them against Humboldt and Darwin, and tells them how much + nobler it is to come from mud than from monkeys; that they were made from + mud. Every college professor is afraid to tell what he thinks, and every + student detects the cowardice. The result is that the young men have lost + confidence in the creeds of the day and propose to do a little thinking + for themselves. They still have a kind of tender pity for the old folks, + and pretend to believe some things they do not, rather than hurt + grandmother's feelings. In the presence of the preachers they talk about + the weather or other harmless subjects, for fear of bruising the spirit of + their pastor. Every minister likes to consider himself as a brave shepherd + leading the lambs through the green pastures and defending them at night + from Infidel wolves. All this he does for a certain share of the wool. + Others regard the church as a kind of social organization, as a good way + to get into society. They wish to attend sociables, drink tea, and + contribute for the conversion of the heathen. It is always so pleasant to + think that there is somebody worse than you are, whose reformation you can + help pay for. I find, too, that the young women are getting tired of the + old doctrines, and that everywhere, all over this country, the power of + the pulpit wanes and weakens. I find in my lectures that the applause is + just in proportion to the radicalism of the thought expressed. Our war was + a great educator, when the whole people of the North rose up grandly in + favor of human liberty. For many years the great question of human rights + was discussed from every stump. Every paper was filled with splendid + sentiments. An application of those doctrines—doctrines born in war—will + forever do away with the bondage of superstition. When man has been free + in body for a little time, he will become free in mind, and the man who + says, "I have a equal right with other men to work and reap the reward of + my labor," will say, "I have, also, an equal right to think and reap the + reward of my thought." + </p> + <p> + In old times there was a great difference between a clergyman and a + layman. The clergyman was educated; the peasant was ignorant. The tables + have been turned. The thought of the world is with the laymen. They are + the intellectual pioneers, the mental leaders, and the ministers are + following on behind, predicting failure and disaster, sighing for the good + old times when their word ended discussion. There is another good thing, + and that is the revision of the Bible. Hundreds of passages have been + found to be interpolations, and future revisers will find hundreds more. + The foundation crumbles. That book, called the basis of all law and + civilization, has to be civilized itself. We have outgrown it. Our laws + are better; our institutions grander; our objects and aims nobler and + higher. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do many people write to you upon this subject; and what + spirit do they manifest? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, I get a great many anonymous letters—some + letters in which God is asked to strike me dead, others of an exceedingly + insulting character, others almost idiotic, others exceedingly malicious, + and others insane, others written in an exceedingly good spirit, winding + up with the information that I must certainly be damned. Others express + wonder that God allowed me to live at all, and that, having made the + mistake, he does not instantly correct it by killing me. Others prophesy + that I will yet be a minister of the gospel; but, as there has never been + any softening of the brain in our family, I imagine that the prophecy will + never by fulfilled. Lately, on opening a letter and seeing that it is upon + this subject, and without a signature, I throw it aside without reading. I + have so often found them to be so grossly ignorant, insulting and + malicious, that as a rule I read them no more. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Of the hundreds of people who call upon you nearly every + day to ask your help, do any of them ever discriminate against you on + account of your Infidelity? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. No one who has asked a favor of me objects to my religion, + or, rather, to my lack of it. A great many people do come to me for + assistance of one kind or another. But I have never yet asked a man or + woman whether they were religious or not, to what church they belonged, or + any questions upon the subject. I think I have done favors for persons of + most denominations. It never occurs to me whether they are Christians or + Infidels. I do not care. Of course, I do not expect that Christians will + treat me the same as though I belonged to their church. I have never + expected it. In some instances I have been disappointed. I have some + excellent friends who disagree with me entirely upon the subject of + religion. My real opinion is that secretly they like me because I am not a + Christian, and those who do not like me envy the liberty I enjoy. + </p> + <p> + —New York correspondent, <i>Chicago Times</i>, May 29, 1881. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0023" id="link0023"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + GUITEAU AND HIS CRIME.* + </h2> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + [* Our "Royal Bob" was found by <i>The Gazette</i>, in the + gloaming of a delicious evening, during the past week, + within the open portals of his friendly residence, dedicated + by the gracious presence within to a simple and cordial + hospitality, to the charms of friendship and the freedom of + an abounding comradeship. With intellectual and untrammeled + life, a generous, wise and genial host, whoever enters finds + a welcome, seasoned with kindly wit and Attic humor, a + poetic insight and a delicious frankness which renders an + evening there a veritable symposium. The wayfarer who + passes is charmed, and he who comes frequently, goes always + away with delighted memories. + + What matters it that we differ? such as he and his make our + common life the sweeter. An hour or two spent in the + attractive parlors of the Ingersoll homestead, amid that + rare group, lends a newer meaning to the idea of home and a + more secure beauty to the fact of family life. During the + past exciting three weeks Colonel Ingersoll has been a busy + man. He holds no office. No position could lend him an + additional crown and even recognition is no longer + necessary. But it has been well that amid the first fierce + fury of anger and excitement, and the subsequent more bitter + if not as noble outpouring of faction's suspicions and + innuendoes, that so manly a man, so sagacious a counsellor, + has been enabled to hold so positive a balance. Cabinet + officers, legal functionaries, detectives, citizens—all + have felt the wise, humane instincts, and the capacious + brain of this marked man affecting and influencing for this + fair equipoise and calmer judgment. + + Conversing freely on the evening of this visit, Colonel + Ingersoll, in the abundance of his pleasure at the White + House news, submitted to be interviewed, and with the + following result.] +</pre> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. By-the-way, Colonel, you knew Guiteau slightly, we + believe. Are you aware that it has been attempted to show that some money + loaned or given him by yourself was really what he purchased the pistol + with? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I knew Guiteau slightly; I saw him for the first time a few + days after the inauguration. He wanted a consulate, and asked me to give + him a letter to Secretary Blaine. I refused, on the ground that I didn't + know him. Afterwards he wanted me to lend him twenty-five dollars, and I + declined. I never loaned him a dollar in the world. If I had, I should not + feel that I was guilty of trying to kill the President. On the principle + that one would hold the man guilty who had innocently loaned the money + with which he bought the pistol, you might convict the tailor who made his + clothes. If he had had no clothes he would not have gone to the depot + naked, and the crime would not have been committed. It is hard enough for + the man who did lend him the money to lose that, without losing his + reputation besides. Nothing can exceed the utter absurdity of what has + been said upon this subject. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How did Guiteau impress you and what have you remembered, + Colonel, of his efforts to reply to your lectures? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not know that Guiteau impressed me in any way. He + appeared like most other folks in search of a place or employment. I + suppose he was in need. He talked about the same as other people, and + claimed that I ought to help him because he was from Chicago. The second + time he came to see me he said that he hoped I had no prejudice against + him on account of what he had said about me. I told him that I never knew + he had said anything against me. I suppose now that he referred to what he + had said in his lectures. He went about the country replying to me. I have + seen one or two of his lectures. He used about the same arguments that Mr. + Black uses in his reply to my article in the <i>North American Review</i>, + and denounced me in about the same terms. He is undoubtedly a man who + firmly believes in the Old Testament, and has no doubt concerning the New. + I understand that he puts in most of his time now reading the Bible and + rebuking people who use profane language in his presence. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. You most certainly do not see any foundation for the + accusations of preachers like Sunderland, Newman and Power, <i>et al</i>, + that the teaching of a secular liberalism has had anything to do with the + shaping of Guiteau's character or the actions of his vagabond life or the + inciting to his murderous deeds? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not think that the sermon of Mr. Power was in good + taste. It is utterly foolish to charge the "Stalwarts" with committing or + inciting the crime against the life of the President. Ministers, though, + as a rule, know but little of public affairs, and they always account for + the actions of people they do not like or agree with, by attributing to + them the lowest and basest motives. This is the fault of the pulpit—always + has been, and probably always will be. The Rev. Dr. Newman of New York, + tells us that the crime of Guiteau shows three things: First, that + ignorant men should not be allowed to vote; second, that foreigners should + not be allowed to vote; and third, that there should not be so much + religious liberty. + </p> + <p> + It turns out, first, the Guiteau is not an ignorant man; second, that he + is not a foreigner; and third, that he is a Christian. Now, because an + intelligent American Christian tries to murder the President, this person + says we ought to do something with ignorant foreigners and Infidels. This + is about the average pulpit logic. Of course, all the ministers hate to + admit the Guiteau was a Christian; that he belonged to the Young Men's + Christian Association, or at least was generally found in their rooms; + that he was a follower of Moody and Sankey, and probably instrumental in + the salvation of a great many souls. I do not blame them for wishing to + get rid of this record. What I blame them for is that they are impudent + enough to charge the crime of Guiteau upon Infidelity. Infidels and + Atheists have often killed tyrants. They have often committed crimes to + increase the liberty of mankind; but the history of the world will not + show an instance where an Infidel or an Atheist has assassinated any man + in the interest of human slavery. Of course, I am exceedingly glad that + Guiteau is not an Infidel. I am glad that he believes the Bible, glad that + he has delivered lectures against what he calls Infidelity, and glad that + he has been working for years with the missionaries and evangelists of the + United States. He is a man of small brain, badly balanced. He believes the + Bible to be the word of God. He believes in the reality of heaven and + hell. He believes in the miraculous. He is surrounded by the supernatural, + and when a man throws away his reason, of course no one can tell what he + will do. He is liable to become a devotee or an assassin, a saint or a + murderer; he may die in a monastery or in a penitentiary. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. According to your view, then, the species of fanaticism + taught in sectarian Christianity, by which Guiteau was led to assert that + Garfield dead would be better off then living—being in Paradise + —is more responsible than office seeking or political factionalism + for his deed? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Guiteau seemed to think that the killing of the President + would only open the gates of Paradise to him, and that, after all, under + such circumstances, murder was hardly a crime. This same kind of reasoning + is resorted to in the pulpit to account for death. If Guiteau had + succeeded in killing the President, hundreds of ministers would have said, + "After all, it may be that the President has lost nothing; it may be that + our loss is his eternal gain; and although it seems cruel that Providence + should allow a man like him to be murdered, still, it may have been the + very kindest thing that could have been done for him." Guiteau reasoned in + this way, and probably convinced himself, judging from his own life, that + this world was, after all, of very little worth. We are apt to measure + others by ourselves. Of course, I do not think Christianity is responsible + for this crime. Superstition may have been, in part —probably was. + But no man believes in Christianity because he thinks it sanctions murder. + At the same time, an absolute belief in the Bible sometimes produces the + worst form of murder. Take that of Mr. Freeman, of Poeasset, who stabbed + his little daughter to the heart in accordance with what he believed to be + the command of God. This poor man imitated Abraham; and, for that matter, + Jehovah himself. There have been in the history of Christianity thousands + and thousands of such instances, and there will probably be many thousands + more that have been and will be produced by throwing away our own reason + and taking the word of some one else —often a word that we do not + understand. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion as to the effect of praying for the + recovery of the President, and have you any confidence that prayers are + answered? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. My opinion as to the value of prayer is well known. I take + it that every one who prays for the President shows at least his sympathy + and good will. Personally, I have no objection to anybody's praying. Those + who think their prayers are answered should pray. For all who honestly + believe this, and who honestly implore their Deity to watch over, protect, + and save the life of the President, I have only the kindliest feelings. + </p> + <p> + It may be that a few will pray to be seen of men; but I suppose that most + people on a subject like this are honest. Personally, I have not the + slightest idea of the existence of the supernatural. Prayer may affect the + person who prays. It may put him in such a frame of mind that he can + better bear disappointment than if he had not prayed; but I cannot believe + that there is any being who hears and answers prayer. + </p> + <p> + When we remember the earthquakes that have devoured, the pestilences that + have covered the earth with corpses, and all the crimes and agonies that + have been inflicted upon the good and weak by the bad and strong, it does + not seem possible that anything can be accomplished by prayer. I do not + wish to hurt the feelings of anyone, but I imagine that I have a right to + my own opinion. If the President gets well it will be because the bullet + did not strike an absolutely vital part; it will be because he has been + well cared for; because he has had about him intelligent and skillful + physicians, men who understood their profession. No doubt he has received + great support from the universal expression of sympathy and kindness. The + knowledge that fifty millions of people are his friends has given him + nerve and hope. Some of the ministers, I see, think that God was actually + present and deflected the ball. Another minister tells us that the + President would have been assassinated in a church, but that God + determined not to allow so frightful a crime to be committed in so sacred + an edifice. All this sounds to me like perfect absurdity—simple + noise. Yet, I presume that those who talk in this way are good people and + believe what they say. Of course, they can give no reason why God did not + deflect the ball when Lincoln was assassinated. The truth is, the pulpit + first endeavors to find out the facts, and then to make a theory to fit + them. Whoever believes in a special providence must, of necessity, by + illogical and absurd; because it is impossible to make any theological + theory that some facts will not contradict. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Won't you give us, then, Colonel, your analysis of this + act, and the motives leading to it? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think Guiteau wanted an office and was refused. He became + importunate. He was, substantially, put out of the White House. He became + malicious. He made up his mind to be revenged. This, in my judgment, is + the diagnosis of his case. Since he has been in jail he has never said one + word about having been put out of the White House; he is lawyer enough to + know he must not furnish any ground for malice. He is a miserable, + malicious and worthless wretch, infinitely egotistical, imagines that he + did a great deal toward the election of Garfield, and upon being refused + the house a serpent of malice coiled in his heart, and he determined to be + revenged. That is all! + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you, in any way, see any reason or foundation for the + severe and bitter criticisms made against the Stalwart leaders in + connection with this crime? As you are well known to be a friend of the + administration, while not unfriendly to Mr. Conkling and those acting with + him, would you mind giving the public your opinion on this point? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course, I do not hold Arthur, Conkling and Platt + responsible for Guiteau's action. In the first excitement a thousand + unreasonable things were said; and when passion has possession of the + brain, suspicion is a welcome visitor. + </p> + <p> + I do not think that any friend of the administration really believes + Conkling, Platt and Arthur responsible in the slightest degree. Conkling + wished to prevent the appointment of Robertson. The President stood by his + friend. One thing brought on another, Mr. Conkling petulantly resigned, + and made the mistake of his life. There was a good deal of feeling, but, + of course, no one dreamed that the wretch, Guiteau, was lying in wait for + the President's life. In the first place, Guiteau was on the President's + side, and was bitterly opposed to Conkling. Guiteau did what he did from + malice and personal spite. I think the sermon preached last Sunday in the + Campbellite Church was unwise, ill advised, and calculated to make enemies + instead of friends. Mr. Conkling has been beaten. He has paid for the + mistake he made. If he can stand it, I can; and why should there be any + malice on the subject? Exceedingly good men have made mistakes, and + afterward corrected them. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is it not true, Colonel Ingersoll, that the lesson of + this deed is to point the real and overwhelming need of re-knitting and + harmonizing the factions? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. There is hardly enough faction left for "knitting." The + party is in harmony now. All that is necessary is to stop talking. The + people of this country care very little as to who holds any particular + office. They wish to have the Government administered in accordance with + certain great principles, and they leave the fields, the shops, and the + stores once in four years, for the purpose of attending to that business. + In the meantime, politicians quarrel about offices. The people go on. They + plow fields, they build homes, they open mines, they enrich the world, + they cover our country with prosperity, and enjoy the aforesaid quarrels. + But when the time comes, these gentlemen are forgotten. + </p> + <p> + Principles take the place of politicians, and the people settle these + questions for themselves. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Sunday Gazette</i>, Washington, D. C., July 24, 1881. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0024" id="link0024"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + DISTRICT SUFFRAGE. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. You have heretofore incidentally expressed yourself on + the matter of local suffrage in the District of Columbia. Have you any + objections to giving your present views of the question? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I am still in favor of suffrage in the District. The real + trouble is, that before any substantial relief can be reached, there must + be a change in the Constitution of the United States. The mere right to + elect aldermen and mayors and policemen is of no great importance. It is a + mistake to take all political power from the citizens of the District. + Americans want to help rule the country. The District ought to have at + least one Representative in Congress, and should elect one presidential + elector. The people here should have a voice. They should feel that they + are a part of this country. They should have the right to sue in all + Federal courts, precisely as though they were citizens of a State. This + city ought to have half a million of inhabitants. Thousands would come + here every year from every part of the Union, were it not for the fact + that they do not wish to become political nothings. They think that + citizenship is worth something, and they preserve it by staying away from + Washington. This city is a "flag of truce" where wounded and dead + politicians congregate; the Mecca of failures, the perdition of claimants, + the purgatory of seekers after place, and the heaven only of those who + neither want nor do anything. Nothing is manufactured, no solid business + is done in this city, and there never will be until energetic, thrifty + people wish to make it their home, and they will not wish that until the + people of the District have something like the rights and political + prospects of other citizens. It is hard to see why the right to + representation should be taken from citizens living in the Capital of the + Nation. The believers in free government should believe in a free capital. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are there any valid reasons why the constitutional + limitations to the elective franchise in the District of Columbia should + not be removed by an amendment to that instrument? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I cannot imagine one. If our Government is founded upon a + correct principle there can be no objection urged against suffrage in the + District that cannot, with equal force, be urged against every part of the + country. If freedom is dangerous here, it is safe nowhere. If a man cannot + be trusted in the District, he is dangerous in the State. We do not trust + the place where the man happens to be; we trust the man. The people of + this District cannot remain in their present condition without becoming + dishonored. The idea of allowing themselves to be governed by + commissioners, in whose selection they have no part, is monstrous. The + people here beg, implore, request, ask, pray, beseech, intercede, crave, + urge, entreat, supplicate, memorialize and most humbly petition, but they + neither vote nor demand. They are not allowed to enter the Temple of + Liberty; they stay in the lobby or sit on the steps. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. They say Paris is France, because her electors or + citizens control that municipality. Do you foresee any danger of + centralization in the full enfranchisement of the citizens of Washington? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. There was a time when the intelligence of France was in + Paris. The country was besotted, ignorant, Catholic; Paris was alive, + educated, Infidel, full of new theories, of passion and heroism. For two + hundred years Paris was an athlete chained to a corpse. The corpse was the + rest of France. It is different now, and the whole country is at last + filling with light. Besides, Paris has two millions of people. It is + filled with factories. It is not only the intellectual center, but the + center of money and business as well. Let the <i>Corps Legislatif</i> meet + anywhere, and Paris will continue to be in a certain splendid sense—France. + Nothing like that can ever happen here unless you expect Washington to + outstrip New York, Philadelphia and Chicago. If allowing the people of the + District of Columbia to vote was the only danger to the Republic, I should + be politically the happiest of men. I think it somewhat dangerous to + deprive even one American citizen of the right to govern himself. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Would you have Government clerks and officials appointed + to office here given the franchise in the District? and should this, if + given, include the women clerks? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Citizenship should be determined here as in the States. + Clerks should not be allowed to vote unless their intention is to make the + District their home. When I make a government I shall give one vote to + each family. The unmarried should not be represented except by parents. + Let the family be the unit of representation. Give each hearthstone a + vote. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How do you regard the opposition of the local clergy and + of the Bourbon Democracy to enfranchising the citizens of the District? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I did not know that the clergy did oppose it. If, as you + say, they do oppose it because they fear it will extend the liquor + traffic, I think their reason exceedingly stupid. You cannot make men + temperate by shutting up a few of the saloons and leaving others wide + open. Intemperance must be met with other weapons. The church ought not to + appeal to force. What would the clergy of Washington think should the + miracle of Cana be repeated in their day? Had they been in that country, + with their present ideas, what would they have said? After all there is a + great deal of philosophy in the following: "Better have the whole world + voluntarily drunk then sober on compulsion." Of course the Bourbons + object. Objecting is the business of a Bourbon. He always objects. If he + does not understand the question he objects because he does not, and if he + does understand he objects because he does. With him the reason for + objecting is the fact that he does. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What effect, if any, would the complete franchise to our + citizens have upon real estate and business in Washington? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. If the people here had representation according to numbers—if + the avenues to political preferment were open—if men here could take + part in the real government of the country, if they could bring with them + all their rights, this would be a great and splendid Capital. We ought to + have here a University, the best in the world, a library second to none, + and here should be gathered the treasures of American art. The Federal + Government has been infinitely economical in the direction of information. + I hope the time will come when our Government will give as much to educate + two men as to kill one. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Capital</i>, Washington, D. C., December 18, 1881. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0025" id="link0025"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + FUNERAL OF JOHN G. MILLS AND IMMORTALITY.* + </h2> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + [* Robert G. Ingersoll rarely takes the trouble to answer + critics. His recent address over the dead body of his friend + John G. Mills has called forth a storm of denunciation from + nearly every pulpit in the country. The writer called at + the Colonel's office in New York Avenue yesterday and asked + him to reply to some of the points made against him. + Reluctantly he assented.] +</pre> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Have you seen the recent clerical strictures upon your + doctrines? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. There are always people kind enough to send me anything + they have the slightest reason to think I do not care to read. They seem + to be animated by a missionary spirit, and apparently want to be in a + position when they see me in hell to exclaim: "You can't blame me. I sent + you all the impudent articles I saw, and if you died unconverted it was no + fault of mine." + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Did you notice that a Washington clergyman said that the + very fact that you were allowed to speak at the funeral was in itself a + sacrilege, and that you ought to have been stopped? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, I saw some such story. Of course, the clergy regard + marriages and funerals as the perquisites of the pulpit, and they resent + any interference on the part of the pews. They look at these matters from + a business point of view. They made the same cry against civil marriages. + They denied that marriage was a contract, and insisted that it was a + sacrament, and that it was hardly binding unless a priest had blessed it. + They used to bury in consecrated ground, and had marks upon the graves, so + that Gabriel might know the ones to waken. The clergy wish to make + themselves essential. They must christen the babe—this gives them + possession of the cradle. They must perform the ceremony of marriage + —this gives them possession of the family. They must pronounce the + funeral discourse—this gives them possession of the dead. Formerly + they denied baptism to the children of the unbeliever, marriage to him who + denied the dogmas of the church, and burial to honest men. The church + wishes to control the world, and wishes to sacrifice this world for the + next. Of course I am in favor of the utmost liberty upon all these + questions. When a Presbyterian dies, let a follower of John Calvin console + the living by setting forth the "Five Points." When a Catholic becomes + clay, let a priest perform such ceremonies as his creed demands, and let + him picture the delights of purgatory for the gratification of the living. + And when one dies who does not believe in any religion, having expressed a + wish that somebody say a few words above his remains, I see no reason why + such a proceeding should be stopped, and, for my part, I see no sacrilege + in it. Why should the reputations of the dead, and the feelings of those + who live, be placed at the mercy of the ministers? A man dies not having + been a Christian, and who, according to the Christian doctrine, is doomed + to eternal fire. How would an honest Christian minister console the widow + and the fatherless children? How would he dare to tell what he claims to + be truth in the presence of the living? The truth is, the Christian + minister in the presence of death abandons his Christianity. He dare not + say above the coffin, "the soul that once inhabited this body is now in + hell." He would be denounced as a brutal savage. Now and then a minister + at a funeral has been brave enough and unmannerly enough to express his + doctrine in all its hideousness of hate. I was told that in Chicago, many + years ago, a young man, member of a volunteer fire company, was killed by + the falling of a wall, and at the very moment the wall struck him he was + uttering a curse. He was a brave and splendid man. An orthodox minister + said above his coffin, in the presence of his mother and mourning friends, + that he saw no hope for the soul of that young man. The mother, who was + also orthodox, refused to have her boy buried with such a sermon—stopped + the funeral, took the corpse home, engaged a Universalist preacher, and, + on the next day having heard this man say that there was no place in the + wide universe of God without hope, and that her son would finally stand + among the redeemed, this mother laid her son away, put flowers upon his + grave, and was satisfied. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What have you to say to the charge that you are preaching + the doctrine of despair and hopelessness, when they have the comforting + assurances of the Christian religion to offer? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. All I have to say is this: If the Christian religion is + true, as commonly preached—and when I speak of Christianity, I speak + of the orthodox Christianity of the day—if that be true, those whom + I have loved the best are now in torment. Those to whom I am most deeply + indebted are now suffering the vengeance of God. If this religion be true, + the future is of no value to me. I care nothing about heaven, unless the + ones I love and have loved are there. I know nothing about the angels. I + might not like them, and they might not like me. I would rather meet there + the ones who have loved me here—the ones who would have died for me, + and for whom I would have died; and if we are to be eternally divided + —not because we differed in our views of justice, not because we + differed about friendship or love or candor, or the nobility of human + action, but because we differed in belief about the atonement or baptism + or the inspiration of the Scriptures—and if some of us are to be in + heaven, and some in hell, then, for my part, I prefer eternal sleep. To me + the doctrine of annihilation is infinitely more consoling, than the + probable separation preached by the orthodox clergy of our time. Of + course, even if there be a God, I like persons that I know, better than I + can like him—we have more in common—I know more about them; + and how is it possible for me to love the infinite and unknown better than + the ones I know? Why not have the courage to say that if there be a God, + all I know about him I know by knowing myself and my friends—by + knowing others? And, after all, is not a noble man, is not a pure woman, + the finest revelation we have of God—if there be one? Of what use is + it to be false to ourselves? What moral quality is there in theological + pretence? Why should a man say that he loves God better than he does his + wife or his children or his brother or his sister or his warm, true + friend? Several ministers have objected to what I said about my friend Mr. + Mills, on the ground that it was not calculated to console the living. Mr. + Mills was not a Christian. He denied the inspiration of the Scriptures. He + believed that restitution was the best repentance, and that, after all, + sin is a mistake. He was not a believer in total depravity, or in the + atonement. He denied these things. He was an unbeliever. Now, let me ask, + what consolation could a Christian minister have given to his family? He + could have said to the widow and the orphans, to the brother and sister: + "Your husband, your father, your brother, is now in hell; dry your tears; + weep not for him, but try and save yourselves. He has been damned as a + warning to you, care no more for him, why should you weep over the grave + of a man whom God thinks fit only to be eternally tormented? Why should + you love the memory of one whom God hates?" The minister could have said: + "He had an opportunity—he did not take it. The life-boat was lowered—he + would not get in—he has been drowned, and the waves of God's wrath + will sweep over him forever." This is the consolation of Christianity and + the only honest consolation that Christianity can have for the widow and + orphans of an unbeliever. Suppose, however, that the Christian minister + has too tender a heart to tell what he believes to be the truth—then + he can say to the sorrowing friends: "Perhaps the man repented before he + died; perhaps he is not in hell, perhaps you may meet him in heaven;" and + this "perhaps" is a consolation not growing out of Christianity, but out + of the politeness of the preacher—out of paganism. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you not think that the Bible has consolation for those + who have lost their friends? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. There is about the Old Testament this strange fact—I + find in it no burial service. There is in it, I believe, from the first + mistake in Genesis to the last curse in Malachi, not one word said over + the dead as to their place and state. When Abraham died, nobody said: "He + is still alive—he is in another world." When the prophets passed + away, not one word was said as to the heaven to which they had gone. In + the Old Testament, Saul inquired of the witch, and Samuel rose. Samuel did + not pretend that he had been living, or that he was alive, but asked: "Why + hast thou disquieted me?" He did not pretend to have come from another + world. And when David speaks of his son, saying that he could not come + back to him, but that he, David, could go to his son, that is but saying + that he, too, must die. There is not in the Old Testament one hope of + immortality. It is expressly asserted that there is no difference between + the man and beast—that as the one dieth so dieth the other. There is + one little passage in Job which commentators have endeavored to twist into + a hope of immortality. Here is a book of hundreds and hundreds of pages, + and hundreds and hundreds of chapters—a revelation from God—and + in it one little passage, which, by a mistranslation, is tortured into + saying something about another life. And this is the Old Testament. I have + sometimes thought that the Jews, when slaves in Egypt, were mostly + occupied in building tombs for mummies, and that they became so utterly + disgusted with that kind of work, that the moment they founded a nation + for themselves they went out of the tomb business. The Egyptians were + believers in immortality, and spent almost their entire substance upon the + dead. The living were impoverished to enrich the dead. The grave absorbed + the wealth of Egypt. The industry of a nation was buried. Certainly the + Old Testament has nothing clearly in favor of immortality. In the New + Testament we are told about the "kingdom of heaven,"—that it is at + hand—and about who shall be worthy, but it is hard to tell what is + meant by the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of heaven was apparently to be + in this world, and it was about to commence. The Devil was to be chained + for a thousand years, the wicked were to be burned up, and Christ and his + followers were to enjoy the earth. This certainly was the doctrine of Paul + when he says: "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all <i>sleep</i>, + but we shall all be <i>changed</i>. In a moment, in the twinkling of an + eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the <i>dead</i> + shall be <i>raised</i> incorruptible, and <i>we</i> shall be <i>changed</i>. + For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on + immortality." According to this doctrine, those who were alive were to be + changed, and those who had died were to be raised from the dead. Paul + certainly did not refer to any other world beyond this. All these things + were to happen here. The New Testament is made up of the fragments of many + religions. It is utterly inconsistent with itself; and there is not a + particle of evidence of the resurrection and ascension of Christ—neither + in the nature of things could there be. It is a thousand times more + probable that people were mistaken than that such things occurred. If + Christ really rose from the dead, he should have shown himself, not simply + to his disciples, but to the very men who crucified him—to Herod, to + the high priest, to Pilate. He should have made a triumphal entry into + Jerusalem after his resurrection, instead of before. He should have shown + himself to the Sadducees,—to those who denied the existence of + spirit. Take from the New Testament its doctrine of eternal pain—the + idea that we can please God by acts of self-denial that can do no good to + others—take away all its miracles, and I have no objection to all + the good things in it—no objection to the hope of a future life, if + such a hope is expressed—not the slightest. And I would not for the + world say anything to take from any mind a hope in which dwells the least + comfort, but a doctrine that dooms a large majority of mankind to eternal + flames ought not to be called a consolation. What I say is, that the + writers of the New Testament knew no more about the future state than I + do, and no less. The horizon of life has never been pierced. The veil + between time and what is called eternity, has never been raised, so far as + I know; and I say of the dead what all others must say if they say only + what they know. There is no particular consolation in a guess. Not knowing + what the future has in store for the human race, it is far better to + prophesy good than evil. It is better to hope that the night has a dawn, + that the sky has a star, than to build a heaven for the few, and a hell + for the many. It is better to leave your dead in doubt than in fire—better + that they should sleep in shadow than in the lurid flames of perdition. + And so I say, and always have said, let us hope for the best. The minister + asks: "What right have you to hope? It is sacrilegious in you!" But, + whether the clergy like it or not, I shall always express my real opinion, + and shall always be glad to say to those who mourn: "There is in death, as + I believe, nothing worse than sleep. Hope for as much better as you can. + Under the seven-hued arch let the dead rest." Throw away the Bible, and + you throw away the fear of hell, but the hope of another life remains, + because the hope does not depend upon a book—it depends upon the + heart—upon human affection. The fear, so far as this generation is + concerned, is born of the book, and that part of the book was born of + savagery. Whatever of hope is in the book is born, as I said before, of + human affection, and the higher our civilization the greater the + affection. I had rather rest my hope of something beyond the grave upon + the human heart, than upon what they call the Scriptures, because there I + find mingled with the hope of something good the threat of infinite evil. + Among the thistles, thorns and briers of the Bible is one pale and sickly + flower of hope. Among all its wild beasts and fowls, only one bird flies + heavenward. I prefer the hope without the thorns, without the briers, + thistles, hyenas, and serpents. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you not know that it is claimed that immortality was + brought to light in the New Testament, that that, in fact, was the + principal mission of Christ? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I know that Christians claim that the doctrine of + immortality was first taught in the New Testament. They also claim that + the highest morality was found there. Both these claims are utterly + without foundation. Thousands of years before Christ was born—thousands + of years before Moses saw the light—the doctrine of immortality was + preached by the priests of Osiris and Isis. Funeral discourses were + pronounced over the dead, ages before Abraham existed. When a man died in + Egypt, before he was taken across the sacred lake, he had a trial. + Witnesses appeared, and if he had done anything wrong, for which he had + not done restitution, he was not taken across the lake. The living + friends, in disgrace, carried the body back, and it was buried outside of + what might be called consecrated ground, while the ghost was supposed to + wander for a hundred years. Often the children of the dead would endeavor + to redeem the poor ghost by acts of love and kindness. When he came to the + spirit world there was the god Anubis, who weighed his heart in the scales + of eternal justice, and if the good deed preponderated he entered the + gates of Paradise; if the evil, he had to go back to the world, and be + born in the bodies of animals for the purpose of final purification. At + last, the good deeds would outweigh the evil, and, according to the + religion of Egypt, the latch-string of heaven would never be drawn in + until the last wanderer got home. Immortality was also taught in India, + and, in fact, in all the countries of antiquity. Wherever men have loved, + wherever they have dreamed, wherever hope has spread its wings, the idea + of immortality has existed. But nothing could be worse than the + immortality promised in the New Testament—admitting that it is so + promised—eternal joy side by side with eternal pain. Think of living + forever, knowing that countless millions are suffering eternal pain! How + much better it would be for God to commit suicide and let all life and + motion cease! Christianity has no consolation except for the Christian, + and if a Christian minister endeavors to console the widow of an + unbeliever he must resort, not to his religion, but to his sympathy—to + the natural promptings of the heart. He is compelled to say: "After all, + may be God is not so bad as we think," or, "May be your husband was better + than he appeared; perhaps somehow, in some way, the dear man has squeezed + in; he was a good husband, he was a kind father, and even if he is in + hell, may be he is in the temperate zone, where they have occasional + showers, and where, if the days are hot, the nights are reasonably cool." + All I ask of Christian ministers is to tell what they believe to be the + truth—not to borrow ideas from the pagans—not to preach the + mercy born of unregenerate sympathy. Let them tell their real doctrines. + If they will do that, they will not have much influence. If orthodox + Christianity is true, a large majority of the man who have made this world + fit to live in are now in perdition. A majority of the Revolutionary + soldiers have been damned. A majority of the man who fought for the + integrity of this Union—a majority who were starved at Libby and + Andersonville are now in hell. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you deny the immortality of the soul? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have never denied the immortality of the soul. I have + simply been honest. I have said: "I do not know." Long ago, in my lecture + on "The Ghosts," I used the following language: "The idea of immortality, + that like a sea has ebbed and flowed in the human heart, with its + countless waves of hope and fear beating against the shores and rocks of + time and fate, was not born of any book, nor of any creed, nor of any + religion. It was born of human affection, and it will continue to ebb and + flow beneath the mists and clouds of doubt and darkness as long as love + kisses the lips of death. It is the rainbow Hope, shining upon the tears + of grief." + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Post</i>, Washington, D. C., April 30, 1883. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0026" id="link0026"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + STAR ROUTE AND POLITICS.* + </h2> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + [* Col. Ingersoll entertains very pronounced ideas + concerning President Arthur, Attorney-General Brewster and + divers other people, which will be found presented herewith + in characteristically piquant style. With his family, the + eloquent advocate has a cottage here, and finds brain and + body rest and refreshment in the tumbling waves. This noon, + in the height of a tremendous thunder storm, I bumped + against his burly figure in the roaring crest, and, after + the first shock had passed, determined to utilize the + providential coincidence. The water was warm, our clothes + were in the bathing houses, and comfort was more certain + where we were than anywhere else. The Colonel is an expert + swimmer and as a floater he cannot be beaten. He was + floating when we bumped. Spouting a pint of salt water from + his mouth, he nearly choked with laughter as in answer to my + question he said:] +</pre> + <p> + No, I do not believe there will be any more Star Route trials. There is so + much talk about the last one, there will not be time for another. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Did you anticipate a verdict? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I did anticipate a verdict, and one of acquittal. I knew + that the defendants were entitled to such a verdict. I knew that the + Government had signally failed to prove a case. There was nothing but + suspicion, from which malice was inferred. The direct proof was utterly + unworthy of belief. The direct witness was caught with letters he had + forged. This one fact was enough to cover the prosecution with confusion. + The fact that Rerdell sat with the other defendants and reported to the + Government from day to day satisfied the jury as to the value of his + testimony, and the animus of the Department of Justice. Besides, Rerdell + had offered to challenge such jurors as the Government might select. He + handed counsel for defendants a list of four names that he wanted + challenged. At that time it was supposed that each defendant would be + allowed to challenge four jurors. Afterward the Court decided that all the + defendants must be considered as one party and had the right to challenge + four and no more. Of the four names on Rerdell's list the Government + challenged three and Rerdell tried to challenge the other. This was what + is called a coincidence. Another thing had great influence with the jury—the + evidence of the defendants was upon all material points so candid and so + natural, so devoid of all coloring, that the jury could not help + believing. If the people knew the evidence they would agree with the jury. + When we remember that there were over ten thousand star routes, it is not + to be wondered at that some mistakes were made—that in some + instances too much was paid and in others too little. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What has been the attitude of President Arthur? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. We asked nothing from the President. We wanted no help from + him. We expected that he would take no part—that he would simply + allow the matter to be settled by the court in the usual way. I think that + he made one very serious mistake. He removed officers on false charges + without giving them a hearing. He deposed Marshal Henry because somebody + said that he was the friend of the defendants. Henry was a good officer + and an honest man. The President removed Ainger for the same reason. This + was a mistake. Ainger should have been heard. There is always time to do + justice. No day is too short for justice, and eternity is not long enough + to commit a wrong. It was thought that the community could be terrorized:— + </p> + <p> + <i>First</i>. The President dismissed Henry and Ainger. + </p> + <p> + <i>Second</i>. The Attorney-General wrote a letter denouncing the + defendants as thieves and robbers. + </p> + <p> + <i>Third</i>. Other letters from Bliss and MacVeagh were published. + </p> + <p> + <i>Fourth</i>. Dixon, the foreman of the first jury, was indicted. + </p> + <p> + <i>Fifth</i>. Members of the first jury voting "guilty" were in various + ways rewarded. + </p> + <p> + <i>Sixth</i>. Bargains were made with Boone and Rerdell. The cases against + Boone were to be dismissed and Rerdell was promised immunity. Under these + circumstances the second trial commenced. But of all the people in this + country the citizens of Washington care least for Presidents and members + of the Cabinets. They know what these officers are made of. They know that + they are simply folks—that they do not hold office forever—that + the Jupiters of to-day are often the pygmies of to-morrow. They have seen + too many people come in with trumpets and flags and go out with hisses and + rags to be overawed by the deities of a day. They have seen Lincoln and + they are not to be frightened by his successors. Arthur took part to the + extent of turning out men suspected of being friendly to the defence. + Arthur was in a difficult place. He was understood to be the friend of + Dorsey and, of course, had to do something. Nothing is more dangerous than + a friend in power. He is obliged to show that he is impartial, and it + always takes a good deal of injustice to establish a reputation for + fairness. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Was there any ground to expect aid or any different + action on Arthur's part? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. All we expected was that Arthur would do as the soldier + wanted the Lord to do at New Orleans—"Just take neither side." + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Why did not Brewster speak? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The Court would not allow two closings. The Attorney- + General did not care to speak in the "middle." He wished to close, and as + he could not do that without putting Mr. Merrick out, he concluded to + remain silent. The defendants had no objection to his speaking, but they + objected to two closing arguments for the Government, and the Court + decided they were right. Of course, I understand nothing about the way in + which the attorneys for the prosecution arranged their difficulties. That + was nothing to me; neither do I care what money they received—all + that is for the next Congress. It is not for me to speak of those + questions. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Will there be other trials? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think not. It does not seem likely that other attorneys + will want to try, and the old ones have. My opinion is that we have had + the last of the Star Route trials. It was claimed that the one tried was + the strongest. If this is so the rest had better be dismissed. I think the + people are tired of the whole business. It now seems probable that all the + time for the next few years will be taken up in telling about the case + that was tried. I see that Cook is telling about MacVeagh and James and + Brewster and Bliss; Walsh is giving his opinion of Kellogg and Foster; + Bliss is saying a few words about Cook and Gibson; Brewster is telling + what Bliss told him; Gibson will have his say about Garfield and MacVeagh, + and it now seems probable that we shall get the bottom facts about the + other jury—the actions of Messrs. Hoover, Bowen, Brewster Cameron + and others. Personally I have no interest in the business. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How does the next campaign look? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The Republicans are making all the mistakes they can, and + the only question now is, Can the Democrats make more? The tariff will be + one of the great questions, and may be the only one except success. The + Democrats are on both sides of the question. They hate to give up the word + "only." Only for that word they might have succeeded in 1880. If they can + let "only" alone, and say they want "a tariff for revenue" they will do + better. The fact is the people are not in favor of free trade, neither do + they want a tariff high enough to crush a class, but they do want a tariff + to raise a revenue and to protect our industries. I am for protection + because it diversifies industries and develops brain—allows us to + utilize all the muscle and brain we have. A party attacking the + manufacturing interests of this country will fail. There are too many + millions of dollars invested and too many millions of people interested. + The country is becoming alike interested in this question. We are no + longer divided, as in slavery times, into manufacturing and agricultural + districts or sections. Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, Louisiana and Texas + have manufacturing interests. And the Western States believe in the + protection of their industries. The American people have a genius for + manufacturing, a genius for invention. We are not the greatest painters or + sculptors or scientists, but we are without doubt the greatest inventors. + If we were all engaged in one business we would become stupid. + Agricultural countries produce great wealth, but are never rich. To get + rich it is necessary to mix thought with labor. To raise the raw material + is a question of strength; to manufacture, to put it in useful and + beautiful forms, is a question of mind. There is a vast difference between + the value of, say, a milestone and a statue, and yet the labor expended in + getting the raw material is about the same. The point, after all, is this: + First, we must have revenue; second, shall we get this by direct taxation + or shall we tax imports and at the same time protect American labor? The + party that advocates reasonable protection will succeed.* + </p> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + [* At this point, with far away peals of thunder, the storm + ceased, the sun reappeared and a vault of heavenly blue + swung overhead. "Let us get out," said Colonel Ingersoll. + Suiting the action to the word, the Colonel struck out + lustily for the beach, on which, hard as a rock and firm as + flint, he soon planted his sturdy form. And as he lumbered + across the sand to the side door of his comfortable cottage, + some three hundred feet from the surf, the necessarily + suggested contrast between Ingersoll in court and Ingersoll + in soaked flannels was illustrated with forcible comicality. + Half an hour later he was found in the cozy library puffing + a high flavored Havana, and listening to home-made music of + delicious quality. Ingersoll at home is pleasant to + contemplate. His sense of personal freedom is there aptly + pictured. Loving wife and affectionate daughters form, with + happy-faced and genial-hearted father, a model circle into + which friends deem it a privilege to enter and a pleasure to + remain. + + Continuing the conversation, ] +</pre> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. In view of all this, where do you think the presidential + candidate will come from? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. From the West. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Why so? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The South and East must compromise. Both can trust the + West. The West represents the whole country. There is no provincialism in + the West. The West is not old enough to have the prejudice of section; it + is too prosperous to have hatred, too great to feel envy. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. You do not seem to think that Arthur has a chance? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. No Vice-President was ever made President by the people. It + is natural to resent the accident that gave the Vice-President the place. + They regard the Vice-President as children do a stepmother. He is looked + upon as temporary—a device to save the election—a something to + stop a gap—a lighter—a political raft. He holds the horse + until another rider is found. People do not wish death to suggest nominees + for the presidency. I do not believe it will be possible for Mr. Arthur, + no matter how well he acts, to overcome this feeling. The people like a + new man. There is some excitement in the campaign, and besides they can + have the luxury of believing that the new man is a great man. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you not think Arthur has grown and is a greater man + than when he was elected? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Arthur was placed in very trying circumstances, and, I + think, behaved with great discretion. But he was Vice-President, and that + is a vice that people will not pardon. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How do you regard the situation in Ohio? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I hear that the Republicans are attacking Hoadly, saying + that he is an Infidel. I know nothing about Mr. Hoadly's theological + sentiments, but he certainly has the right to have and express his own + views. If the Republicans of Ohio have made up their minds to disfranchise + the Liberals, the sooner they are beaten the better. Why should the + Republican party be so particular about religious belief? Was Lincoln an + orthodox Christian? Were the founders of the party—the men who gave + it heart and brain—conspicuous for piety? Were the abolitionists all + believers in the inspiration of the Bible? Is Judge Hoadly to be attacked + because he exercises the liberty that he gives to others? Has not the + Republican party trouble enough with the spirituous to let the spiritual + alone? If the religious issue is made, I hope that the party making it + will be defeated. I know nothing about the effect of the recent decision + of the Supreme Court of Ohio. It is a very curious decision and seems to + avoid the Constitution with neatness and despatch. The decision seems to + rest on the difference between the words tax and license—<i>I. e.</i>, + between allowing a man to sell whiskey for a tax of one hundred dollars or + giving him a license to sell whiskey and charging him one hundred dollars. + In this, the difference is in the law instead of the money. So far all the + prohibitory legislation on the liquor question has been a failure. Beer is + victorious, and Gambrinus now has Olympus all to himself. On his side is + the "bail"— + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. But who will win? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The present indications are favorable to Judge Hoadly. It + is an off year. The Ohio leaders on one side are not in perfect harmony. + The Germans are afraid, and they generally vote the Democratic ticket when + in doubt. The effort to enforce the Sunday law, to close the gardens, to + make one day in the week desolate and doleful, will give the Republicans a + great deal of hard work. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How about Illinois? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Republican always. The Supreme Court of Illinois has just + made a good decision. That Court decided that a contract made on Sunday + can be enforced. In other words, that Sunday is not holy enough to + sanctify fraud. You can rely on a State with a Court like that. There is + very little rivalry in Illinois. I think that General Oglesby will be the + next Governor. He is one of the best men in that State or any other. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What about Indiana? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In that State I think General Gresham is the coming man. He + was a brave soldier, an able, honest judge, and he will fill with honor + any position he may be placed in. He is an excellent lawyer, and has as + much will as was ever put in one man. McDonald is the most available man + for the Democrats. He is safe and in every respect reliable. He is without + doubt the most popular man in his party. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Well, Colonel, what are you up to? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Nothing. I am surrounded by sand, sea and sky. I listen to + music, bathe in the surf and enjoy myself. I am wondering why people take + interest in politics; why anybody cares about anything; why everybody is + not contented; why people want to climb the greased pole of office and + then dodge the brickbats of enemies and rivals; why any man wishes to be + President, or a member of Congress, or in the Cabinet, or do anything + except to live with the ones he loves, and enjoy twenty-four hours every + day. I wonder why all New York does not come to Long Beach and hear + Schreiner's Band play the music of Wagner, the greatest of all composers. + Finally, in the language of Walt Whitman, "I loaf and invite my soul." + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Herald</i>, New York, July 1, 1883. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0027" id="link0027"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE INTERVIEWER. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of newspaper interviewing? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I believe that James Redpath claims to have invented the + "interview." This system opens all doors, does away with political + pretence, batters down the fortifications of dignity and official + importance, pulls masks from solemn faces, compels everybody to show his + hand. The interviewer seems to be omnipresent. He is the next man after + the accident. If a man should be blown up he would likely fall on an + interviewer. He is the universal interrogation point. He asks questions + for a living. If the interviewer is fair and honest he is useful, if the + other way, he is still interesting. On the whole, I regard the interviewer + as an exceedingly important person. But whether he is good or bad, he has + come to stay. He will interview us until we die, and then ask the + "friends" a few questions just to round the subject off. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the tendency of newspapers is at + present? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The papers of the future, I think, will be "news" papers. + The editorial is getting shorter and shorter. The paragraphist is taking + the place of the heavy man. People rather form their own opinions from the + facts. Of course good articles will always find readers, but the dreary, + doleful, philosophical dissertation has had its day. The magazines will + fall heir to such articles; then religious weeklies will take them up, and + then they will cease altogether. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think the people lead the newspapers, or do the + newspapers lead them? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The papers lead and are led. Most papers have for sale what + people want to buy. As a rule the people who buy determine the character + of the thing sold. The reading public grow more discriminating every year, + and, as a result, are less and less "led." Violent papers—those that + most freely attack private character—are becoming less hurtful, + because they are losing their own reputations. Evil tends to correct + itself. People do not believe all they read, and there is a growing + tendency to wait and hear from the other side. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do newspapers to-day exercise as much influence as they + did twenty-five years ago? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. More, by the facts published, and less, by editorials. As + we become more civilized we are governed less by persons and more by + principles—less by faith and more by fact. The best of all leaders + is the man who teaches people to lead themselves. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What would you define public opinion to be? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. First, in the widest sense, the opinion of the majority, + including all kinds of people. Second, in a narrower sense, the opinion of + the majority of the intellectual. Third, in actual practice, the opinion + of those who make the most noise. Fourth, public opinion is generally a + mistake, which history records and posterity repeats. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you regard as the result of your lectures? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In the last fifteen years I have delivered several hundred + lectures. The world is growing more and more liberal every day. The man + who is now considered orthodox, a few years ago would have been denounced + as an Infidel. People are thinking more and believing less. The pulpit is + losing influence. In the light of modern discovery the creeds are growing + laughable. A theologian is an intellectual mummy, and excites attention + only as a curiosity. Supernatural religion has outlived its usefulness. + The miracles and wonders of the ancients will soon occupy the same tent. + Jonah and Jack the Giant Killer, Joshua and Red Riding Hood, Noah and + Neptune, will all go into the collection of the famous Mother Hubbard. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Morning Journal</i>, New York, July 3, 1883. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0028" id="link0028"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + POLITICS AND PROHIBITION. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the result in Ohio? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In Ohio prohibition did more harm to the Republican chances + than anything else. The Germans hold the Republicans responsible. The + German people believe in personal liberty. They came to America to get it, + and they regard any interference in the manner or quantity of their food + and drink as an invasion of personal rights. They claim they are not + questions to be regulated by law, and I agree with them. I believe that + people will finally learn to use spirits temperately and without abuse, + but teetotalism is intemperance in itself, which breeds resistance, and + without destroying the rivulet of the appetite only dams it and makes it + liable to break out at any moment. You can prevent a man from stealing by + tying his hands behind him, but you cannot make him honest. Prohibition + breeds too many spies and informers, and makes neighbors afraid of each + other. It kills hospitality. Again, the Republican party in Ohio is + endeavoring to have Sunday sanctified by the Legislature. The working + people want freedom on Sunday. They wish to enjoy themselves, and all laws + now making to prevent innocent amusement, beget a spirit of resentment + among the common people. I feel like resenting all such laws, and unless + the Republican party reforms in that particular, it ought to be defeated. + I regard those two things as the principal causes of the Republican + party's defeat in Ohio. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you believe that the Democratic success was due to the + possession of reverse principles? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not think that the Democratic party is in favor of + liberty of thought and action in these two regards, from principle, but + rather from policy. Finding the course pursued by the Republicans + unpopular, they adopted the opposite mode, and their success is a proof of + the truth of what I contend. One great trouble in the Republican party is + bigotry. The pulpit is always trying to take charge. The same thing exists + in the Democratic party to a less degree. The great trouble here is that + its worst element—Catholicism —is endeavoring to get control. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What causes operated for the Republican success in Iowa? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Iowa is a prohibition State and almost any law on earth as + against anything to drink, can be carried there. There are no large cities + in the State and it is much easier to govern, but even there the + prohibition law is bound to be a failure. It will breed deceit and + hypocrisy, and in the long run the influence will be bad. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Will these two considerations cut any figure in the + presidential campaign of 1884? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The party, as a party, will have nothing to do with these + questions. These matters are local. Whether the Republicans are successful + will depend more upon the country's prosperity. If things should be + generally in pretty good shape in 1884, the people will allow the party to + remain in power. Changes of administration depend a great deal on the + feeling of the country. If crops are bad and money is tight, the people + blame the administration, whether it is responsible or not. If a ship + going down the river strikes a snag, or encounters a storm, a cry goes up + against the captain. It may not have been his fault, but he is blamed, all + the same, and the passengers at once clamor for another captain. So it is + in politics. + </p> + <p> + If nothing interferes between this and 1884, the Republican party will + continue. Otherwise it will be otherwise. But the principle of prosperity + as applied to administrative change is strong. If the panic of 1873 had + occurred in 1876 there would have been no occasion for a commission to sit + on Tilden. If it had struck us in 1880, Hancock would have been elected. + Neither result would have its occasion in the superiority of the + Democratic party, but in the belief that the Republican party was in some + vague way blamable for the condition of things, and there should be a + change. The Republican party is not as strong as it used to be. The old + leaders have dropped out and no persons have yet taken their places. + Blaine has dropped out, and is now writing a book. Conkling dropped out + and is now practicing law, and so I might go on enumerating leaders who + have severed their connection with the party and are no longer identified + with it. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion regarding the Republican nomination + for President? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. My belief is that the Republicans will have to nominate + some man who has not been conspicuous in any faction, and upon whom all + can unite. As a consequence he must be a new man. The Democrats must do + the same. They must nominate a new man. The old ones have been defeated so + often that they start handicapped with their own histories, and failure in + the past is very poor raw material out of which to manufacture faith for + the future. My own judgment is that for the Democrats, McDonald is as + strong a man as they can get. He is a man of most excellent sense and + would be regarded as a safe man. Tilden? He is dead, and he occupies no + stronger place in the general heart than a graven image. With no + magnetism, he has nothing save his smartness to recommend him. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What are your views, generally expressed, on the tariff? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. There are a great many Democrats for protection and a great + many for so-called free trade. I think the large majority of American + people favor a reasonable tariff for raising our revenue and protecting + our manufactures. I do not believe in tariff for revenue only, but for + revenue and protection. The Democrats would have carried the country had + they combined revenue and incidental protection. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are they rectifying the error now? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I believe they are, already. They will do it next fall. If + they do not put it in their platform they will embody it in their + speeches. I do not regard the tariff as a local, but a national issue, + notwithstanding Hancock inclined to the belief that it was the former. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Times</i>, Chicago, Illinois, October 13, 1883. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0029" id="link0029"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE REPUBLICAN DEFEAT IN OHIO. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your explanation of the Republican disaster last + Tuesday? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Too much praying and not enough paying, is my explanation + of the Republican defeat. + </p> + <p> + <i>First</i>. I think the attempt to pass the Prohibition Amendment lost + thousands of votes. The people of this country, no matter how much they + may deplore the evils of intemperance, are not yet willing to set on foot + a system of spying into each other's affairs. They know that prohibition + would need thousands of officers—that it would breed informers and + spies and peekers and skulkers by the hundred in every county. They know + that laws do not of themselves make good people. Good people make good + laws. Americans do not wish to be temperate upon compulsion. The spirit + that resents interference in these matters is the same spirit that made + and keeps this a free country. All this crusade and prayer-meeting + business will not do in politics. We must depend upon the countless + influences of civilization, upon science, art, music—upon the + softening influences of kindness and argument. As life becomes valuable + people will take care of it. Temperance upon compulsion destroys something + more valuable than itself—liberty. I am for the largest liberty in + all things. + </p> + <p> + <i>Second</i>. The Prohibitionists, in my opinion, traded with Democrats. + The Democrats were smart enough to know that prohibition could not carry, + and that they could safely trade. The Prohibitionists were insane enough + to vote for their worst enemies, just for the sake of polling a large vote + for prohibition, and were fooled as usual. + </p> + <p> + <i>Thirdly</i>. Certain personal hatreds of certain Republican + politicians. These were the causes which led to Republican defeat in Ohio. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Will it necessitate the nomination of an Ohio Republican + next year? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not think so. Defeat is apt to breed dissension, and + on account of that dissension the party will have to take a man from some + other State. One politician will say to another, "You did it," and another + will reply, "You are the man who ruined the party." I think we have given + Ohio her share; certainly she has given us ours. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Will this reverse seriously affect Republican chances + next year? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. If the country is prosperous next year, if the crops are + good, if prices are fair, if Pittsburg is covered with smoke, if the song + of the spindle is heard in Lowell, if stocks are healthy, the Republicans + will again succeed. If the reverse as to crops and forges and spindles, + then the Democrats will win. It is a question of "chich-bugs," and floods + and drouths. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Who, in your judgment, would be the strongest man the + Republicans could put up? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Last year I thought General Sherman, but he has gone to + Missouri, and now I am looking around. The first day I find out I will + telegraph you. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Democrat</i>, Dayton, Ohio, October 15, 1883. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0030" id="link0030"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE CIVIL RIGHTS BILL. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the recent opinion of the Supreme + Court touching the rights of the colored man? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think it is all wrong. The intention of the framers of + the amendment, by virtue of which the law was passed, was that no + distinction should be made in inns, in hotels, cars, or in theatres; in + short, in public places, on account of color, race, or previous condition. + The object of the men who framed that amendment to the Constitution was + perfectly clear, perfectly well known, perfectly understood. They intended + to secure, by an amendment to the fundamental law, what had been fought + for by hundreds of thousands of men. They knew that the institution of + slavery had cost rebellion; the also knew that the spirit of caste was + only slavery in another form. They intended to kill that spirit. Their + object was that the law, like the sun, should shine upon all, and that no + man keeping a hotel, no corporation running cars, no person managing a + theatre should make any distinction on account of race or color. This + amendment is above all praise. It was the result of a moral exaltation, + such as the world never before had seen. There were years during the war, + and after, when the American people were simply sublime; when their + generosity was boundless; when they were willing to endure any hardship to + make this an absolutely free country. + </p> + <p> + This decision of the Supreme Court puts the best people of the colored + race at the mercy of the meanest portion of the white race. It allows a + contemptible white man to trample upon a good colored man. I believe in + drawing a line between good and bad, between clean and unclean, but I do + not believe in drawing a color line which is as cruel as the lash of + slavery. + </p> + <p> + I am willing to be on an equality in all hotels, in all cars, in all + theatres, with colored people. I make no distinction of race. Those make + the distinction who cannot afford not to. If nature has made no + distinction between me and some others, I do not ask the aid of the + Legislature. I am willing to associate with all good, clean persons, + irrespective of complexion. + </p> + <p> + This decision virtually gives away one of the great principles for which + the war was fought. It carries the doctrine of "State Rights" to the + Democratic extreme, and renders necessary either another amendment or a + new court. + </p> + <p> + I agree with Justice Harlan. He has taken a noble and patriotic stand. + Kentucky rebukes Massachusetts! I am waiting with some impatience—impatient + because I anticipate a pleasure—for his dissenting opinion. Only a + little while ago Justice Harlan took a very noble stand on the Virginia + Coupon cases, in which was involved the right of a State to repudiate its + debts. Now he has taken a stand in favor of the civil rights of the + colored man; and in both instances I think he is right. + </p> + <p> + This decision may, after all, help the Republican party. A decision of the + Supreme Court aroused the indignation of the entire North, and I hope the + present decision will have a like effect. The good people of this country + will not be satisfied until every man beneath the flag, without the + slightest respect to his complexion, stands on a perfect equality before + the law with every other. Any government that makes a distinction on + account of color, is a disgrace to the age in which we live. The idea that + a man like Frederick Douglass can be denied entrance to a car, that the + doors of a hotel can be shut in his face; that he may be prevented from + entering a theatre; the idea that there shall be some ignominious corner + into which such a man can be thrown simply by a decision of the Supreme + Court! This idea is simply absurd. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What remains to be done now, and who is going to do it? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. For a good while people have been saying that the + Republican party has outlived its usefulness; that there is very little + difference now between the parties; that there is hardly enough left to + talk about. This decision opens the whole question. This decision says to + the Republican party, "Your mission is not yet ended. This is not a free + country. Our flag does not protect the rights of a human being." This + decision is the tap of a drum. The old veterans will fall into line. This + decision gives the issue for the next campaign, and it may be that the + Supreme Court has builded wiser than it knew. This is a greater question + than the tariff or free trade. It is a question of freedom, of human + rights, of the sacredness of humanity. + </p> + <p> + The real Americans, the real believers in Liberty, will give three cheers + for Judge Harlan. + </p> + <p> + One word more. The Government is bound to protect its citizens, not only + when they are away from home, but when they are under the flag. In time of + war the Government has a right to draft any citizen; to put that citizen + in the line of battle, and compel him to fight for the nation. If the + Government when imperiled has the right to compel a citizen, whether white + or black, to defend with his blood the flag, that citizen, when imperiled, + has the right to demand protection from the Nation. The Nation cannot then + say, "You must appeal to your State." If the citizen must appeal to the + State for redress, then the citizen should defend the State and not the + General Government, and the doctrine of State Rights then becomes + complete. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The National Republican</i>, Washington, D. C., October 17, + 1883. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0031" id="link0031"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + JUSTICE HARLAN AND THE CIVIL RIGHTS BILL. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of Justice Harlan's dissenting opinion + in the Civil Rights case? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have just read it and think it admirable in every + respect. It is unanswerable. He has given to words their natural meaning. + He has recognized the intention of the framers of the recent amendments. + There is nothing in this opinion that is strained, insincere, or + artificial. It is frank and manly. It is solid masonry, without crack or + flaw. He does not resort to legal paint or putty, or to verbal varnish or + veneer. He states the position of his brethren of the bench with perfect + fairness, and overturns it with perfect ease. He has drawn an instructive + parallel between the decisions of the olden time, upholding the power of + Congress to deal with individuals in the interests of slavery, and the + power conferred on Congress by the recent amendments. He has shown by the + old decisions, that when a duty is enjoined upon Congress, ability to + perform it is given; that when a certain end is required, all necessary + means are granted. He also shows that the Fugitive Slave Acts of 1793 and + of 1850, rested entirely upon the implied power of Congress to enforce a + master's rights; and that power was once implied in favor of slavery + against human rights, and implied from language shadowy, feeble and + uncertain when compared with the language of the recent amendments. He has + shown, too, that Congress exercised the utmost ingenuity in devising laws + to enforce the master's claim. Implication was held ample to deprive a + human being of his liberty, but to secure freedom, the doctrine of + implication is abandoned. As a foundation for wrong, implication was their + rock. As a foundation for right, it is now sand. Implied power then was + sufficient to enslave, while power expressly given is now impotent to + protect. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the use he has made of the Dred + Scott decision? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Well, I think he has shown conclusively that the present + decision, under the present circumstances, is far worse than the Dred + Scott decision was under the then circumstances. The Dred Scott decision + was a libel upon the best men of the Revolutionary period. That decision + asserted broadly that our forefathers regarded the negroes as having no + rights which white men were bound to respect; that the negroes were merely + merchandise, and that that opinion was fixed and universal in the + civilized portion of the white race, and that no one thought of disputing + it. Yet Franklin contended that slavery might be abolished under the + preamble of the Constitution. Thomas Jefferson said that if the slave + should rise to cut the throat of his master, God had no attribute that + would side against the slave. Thomas Paine attacked the institution with + all the intensity and passion of his nature. John Adams regarded the + institution with horror. So did every civilized man, South and North. + </p> + <p> + Justice Harlan shows conclusively that the Thirteenth Amendment was + adopted in the light of the Dred Scott decision; that it overturned and + destroyed, not simply the decision, but the reasoning upon which it was + based; that it proceeded upon the ground that the colored people had + rights that white men were bound to respect, not only, but that the Nation + was bound to protect. He takes the ground that the amendment was suggested + by the condition of that race, which had been declared by the Supreme + Court of the United States to have no rights which white men were bound to + respect; that it was made to protect people whose rights had been invaded, + and whose strong arms had assisted in the overthrow of the Rebellion; that + it was made for the purpose of putting these men upon a legal authority + with white citizens. + </p> + <p> + Justice Harland also shows that while legislation of Congress to enforce a + master's right was upheld by implication, the rights of the negro do not + depend upon that doctrine; that the Thirteenth Amendment does not rest + upon implication, or upon inference; that by its terms it places the power + in Congress beyond the possibility of a doubt—conferring the power + to enforce the amendment by appropriate legislation in express terms; and + he also shows that the Supreme Court has admitted that legislation for + that purpose may be direct and primary. Had not the power been given in + express terms, Justice Harlan contends that the sweeping declaration that + neither slavery nor involuntary servitude shall exist would by implication + confer the power. He also shows conclusively that, under the Thirteenth + Amendment, Congress has the right by appropriate legislation to protect + the colored people against the deprivation of any right on account of + their race, and that Congress is not necessarily restricted, under the + Thirteenth Amendment, to legislation against slavery as an institution, + but that power may be exerted to the extent of protecting the race from + discrimination in respect to such rights as belong to freemen, where such + discrimination is based on race or color. + </p> + <p> + If Justice Harlan is wrong the amendments are left without force and + Congress without power. No purpose can be assigned for their adoption. No + object can be guessed that was to be accomplished. They become words, so + arranged that they sound like sense, but when examined fall meaninglessly + apart. Under the decision of the Supreme Court they are Quaker cannon—cloud + forts—"property" for political stage scenery—coats of mail + made of bronzed paper— shields of gilded pasteboard—swords of + lath. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you wish to say anything as to the reasoning of + Justice Harlan on the rights of colored people on railways, in inns and + theatres? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, I do. That part of the opinion is especially strong. + He shows conclusively that a common carrier is in the exercise of a sort + of public office and has public duties to perform, and that he cannot + exonerate himself from the performance of these duties without the consent + of the parties concerned. He also shows that railroads are public + highways, and that the railway company is the agent of the State, and that + a railway, although built by private capital, is just as public in its + nature as though constructed by the State itself. He shows that the + railway is devoted to public use, and subject to be controlled by the + State for the public benefit, and that for these reasons the colored man + has the same rights upon the railway that he has upon the public highway. + </p> + <p> + Justice Harlan shows that the same law is applicable to inns that is + applicable to railways; that an inn-keeper is bound to take all travelers + if he can accommodate them; that he is not to select his guests; that he + has not right to say to one "you may come in," and to another "you shall + not;" that every one who conducts himself in a proper manner has a right + to be received. He shows conclusively that an inn-keeper is a sort of + public servant; that he is in the exercise of a <i>quasi</i> public + employment, that he is given special privileges, and charged with duties + of a public character. + </p> + <p> + As to theatres, I think his argument most happy. It is this: Theatres are + licensed by law. The authority to maintain them comes from the public. The + colored race being a part of the public, representing the power granting + the license, why should the colored people license a manager to open his + doors to the white man and shut them in the face of the black man? Why + should they be compelled to license that which they are not permitted to + enjoy? Justice Harlan shows that Congress has the power to prevent + discrimination on account of race or color on railways, at inns, and in + places of public amusements, and has this power under the Thirteenth + Amendment. + </p> + <p> + In discussing the Fourteenth Amendment, Justice Harlan points out that a + prohibition upon a State is not a power in Congress or the National + Government, but is simply a denial of power to the State; that such was + the Constitution before the Fourteenth Amendment. He shows, however, that + the Fourteenth Amendment presents the first instance in our history of the + investiture of Congress with affirmative power by legislation to enforce + an express prohibition upon the States. This is an important point. It is + stated with great clearness, and defended with great force. He shows that + the first clause of the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment is of a + distinctly affirmative character, and that Congress would have had the + power to legislate directly as to that section simply by implication, but + that as to that as well as the express prohibitions upon the States, + express power to legislate was given. + </p> + <p> + There is one other point made by Justice Harlan which transfixes as with a + spear the decision of the Court. It is this: As soon as the Thirteenth and + Fourteenth Amendments were adopted the colored citizen was entitled to the + protection of section two, article four, namely: "The citizens of each + State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens + of the several States." Now, suppose a colored citizen of Mississippi + moves to Tennessee. Then, under the section last quoted, he would + immediately become invested with all the privileges and immunities of a + white citizen of Tennessee. Although denied these privileges and + immunities in the State from which he emigrated, in the State to which he + immigrates he could not be discriminated against on account of his color + under the second section of the fourth article. Now, is it possible that + he gets additional rights by immigration? Is it possible that the General + Government is under a greater obligation to protect him in a State of + which he is not a citizen than in a State of which he is a citizen? Must + he leave home for protection, and after he has lived long enough in the + State to which he immigrates to become a citizen there, must he again move + in order to protect his rights? Must one adopt the doctrine of peripatetic + protection—the doctrine that the Constitution is good only <i>in + transitu</i>, and that when the citizen stops, the Constitution goes on + and leaves him without protection? + </p> + <p> + Justice Harlan shows that Congress had the right to legislate directly + while that power was only implied, but that the moment this power was + conferred in express terms, then according to the Supreme Court, it was + lost. + </p> + <p> + There is another splendid definition given by Justice Harlan—a line + drawn as broad as the Mississippi. It is the distinction between the + rights conferred by a State and rights conferred by the Nation. Admitting + that many rights conferred by a State cannot be enforced directly by + Congress, Justice Harlan shows that rights granted by the Nation to an + individual may be protected by direct legislation. This is a distinction + that should not be forgotten, and it is a definition clear and perfect. + </p> + <p> + Justice Harlan has shown that the Supreme Court failed to take into + consideration the intention of the framers of the amendment; failed to see + that the powers of Congress were given by express terms and did not rest + upon implication; failed to see that the Thirteenth Amendment was broad + enough to cover the Civil Rights Act; failed to see that under the three + amendments rights and privileges were conferred by the Nation on citizens + of the several States, and that these rights are under the perpetual + protection of the General Government, and that for their enforcement + Congress has the right to legislate directly; failed to see that all + implications are now in favor of liberty instead of slavery; failed to + comprehend that we have a new nation with a new foundation, with different + objects, ends, and aims, for the attainment of which we use different + means and have been clothed with greater powers; failed to see that the + Republic changed front; failed to appreciate the real reasons for the + adoption of the amendments, and failed to understand that the Civil Rights + Act was passed in order that a citizen of the United States might appeal + from local prejudice to national justice. + </p> + <p> + Justice Harlan shows that it was the object to accomplish for the black + man what had been accomplished for the white man—that is, to protect + all their rights as free men and citizens; and that the one underlying + purpose of the amendments and of the congressional legislation has been to + clothe the black race with all the rights of citizenship, and to compel a + recognition of their rights by citizens and States—that the object + was to do away with class tyranny, the meanest and basest form of + oppression. + </p> + <p> + If Justice Harlan was wrong in his position, then, it may truthfully be + said of the three amendments that: + </p> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + "The law hath bubbles as the water has, + And these are of them." +</pre> + <p> + The decision of the Supreme Court denies the protection of the Nation to + the citizens of the Nation. That decision has already borne fruit—the + massacre at Danville. The protection of the Nation having been withdrawn, + the colored man was left to the mercy of local prejudices and hatreds. He + is without appeal, without redress. The Supreme Court tells him that he + must depend upon his enemies for justice. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. You seem to agree with all that Justice Harlan has said, + and to have the greatest admiration for his opinion? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, a man rises from reading this dissenting opinion + refreshed, invigorated, and strengthened. It is a mental and moral tonic. + It was produced after a clear head had held conference with a good heart. + It will furnish a perfectly clear plank, without knot or wind-shake, for + the next Republican platform. It is written in good plain English, and + ornamented with good sound sense. The average man can and will understand + its every word. There is no subterfuge in it. + </p> + <p> + Each position is taken in the open field. There is no resort to quibbles + or technicalities—no hiding. Nothing is secreted in the sleeve—no + searching for blind paths—no stooping and looking for ancient + tracks, grass-grown and dim. Each argument travels the highway—"the + big road." It is logical. The facts and conclusions agree, and fall + naturally into line of battle. It is sincere and candid—unpretentious + and unanswerable. It is a grand defence of human rights—a brave and + manly plea for universal justice. It leaves the decision of the Supreme + Court without argument, without reason, and without excuse. Such an + exhibition of independence, courage and ability has won for Justice Harlan + the respect and admiration of "both sides," and places him in the front + rank of constitutional lawyers. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Inter-Ocean</i>, Chicago, Illinois, November 29, 1883. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0032" id="link0032"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + POLITICS AND THEOLOGY. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of Brewster's administration? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I hardly think I ought to say much about the administration + of Mr. Brewster. Of course many things have been done that I thought, and + still think, extremely bad; but whether Mr. Brewster was responsible for + the things done, or not, I do not pretend to say. When he was appointed to + his present position, there was great excitement in the country about the + Star Route cases, and Mr. Brewster was expected to prosecute everybody and + everything to the extent of the law; in fact, I believe he was appointed + by reason of having made such a promise. At that time there were hundreds + of people interested in exaggerating all the facts connected with the Star + Route cases, and when there were no facts to be exaggerated, they made + some, and exaggerated them afterward. It may be that the Attorney-General + was misled, and he really supposed that all he heard was true. My + objection to the administration of the Department of Justice is, that a + resort was had to spies and detectives. The battle was not fought in the + open field. Influences were brought to bear. Nearly all departments of the + Government were enlisted. Everything was done to create a public opinion + in favor of the prosecution. Everything was done that the cases might be + decided on prejudice instead of upon facts. + </p> + <p> + Everything was done to demoralize, frighten and overawe judges, witnesses + and jurors. I do not pretend to say who was responsible, possibly I am not + an impartial judge. I was deeply interested at the time, and felt all of + these things, rather than reasoned about them. + </p> + <p> + Possibly I cannot give a perfectly unbiased opinion. Personally, I have no + feeling now upon the subject. + </p> + <p> + The Department of Justice, in spite of its methods, did not succeed. That + was enough for me. I think, however, when the country knows the facts, + that the people will not approve of what was done. I do not believe in + trying cases in the newspapers before they are submitted to jurors. That + is a little too early. Neither do I believe in trying them in the + newspapers after the verdicts have been rendered. That is a little too + late. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What are Mr. Blaine's chances for the presidency? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. My understanding is that Mr. Blaine is not a candidate for + the nomination; that he does not wish his name to be used in that + connection. He ought to have been nominated in 1876, and if he were a + candidate, he would probably have the largest following; but my + understanding is, that he does not, in any event, wish to be a candidate. + He is a man perfectly familiar with the politics of this country, knows + its history by heart, and is in every respect probably as well qualified + to act as its Chief Magistrate as any man in the nation. He is a man of + ideas, of action, and has positive qualities. He would not wait for + something to turn up, and things would not have to wait long for him to + turn them up. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Who do you think will be nominated at Chicago? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course I have not the slightest idea who will be + nominated. I may have an opinion as to who ought to be nominated, and yet + I may be greatly mistaken in that opinion. There are hundreds of men in + the Republican party, any one of whom, if elected, would make a good, + substantial President, and there are many thousands of men about whom I + know nothing, any one of whom would in all probability make a good + President. We do not want any man to govern this country. This country + governs itself. We want a President who will honestly and faithfully + execute the laws, who will appoint postmasters and do the requisite amount + of handshaking on public occasions, and we have thousands of men who can + discharge the duties of that position. Washington is probably the worst + place to find out anything definite upon the subject of presidential + booms. I have thought for a long time that one of the most valuable men in + the country was General Sherman. Everybody knows who and what he is. He + has one great advantage—he is a frank and outspoken man. He has + opinions and he never hesitates about letting them be known. There is + considerable talk about Judge Harlan. His dissenting opinion in the Civil + Rights case has made every colored man his friend, and I think it will + take considerable public patronage to prevent a good many delegates from + the Southern States voting for him. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What are your present views on theology? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Well, I think my views have not undergone any change that I + know of. I still insist that observation, reason and experience are the + things to be depended upon in this world. I still deny the existence of + the supernatural. I still insist that nobody can be good for you, or bad + for you; that you cannot be punished for the crimes of others, nor + rewarded for their virtues. I still insist that the consequences of good + actions are always good, and those of bad actions always bad. I insist + that nobody can plant thistles and gather figs; neither can they plant + figs and gather thistles. I still deny that a finite being can commit an + infinite sin; but I continue to insist that a God who would punish a man + forever is an infinite tyrant. My views have undergone no change, except + that the evidence of that truth constantly increases, and the dogmas of + the church look, if possible, a little absurder every day. Theology, you + know, is not a science. It stops at the grave; and faith is the end of + theology. Ministers have not even the advantage of the doctors; the + doctors sometimes can tell by a post-mortem examination whether they + killed the man or not; but by cutting a man open after he is dead, the + wisest theologians cannot tell what has become of his soul, and whether it + was injured or helped by a belief in the inspiration of the Scriptures. + Theology depends on assertion for evidence, and on faith for disciples. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Tribune</i>, Denver, Colorado, January 17, 1886. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0033" id="link0033"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + MORALITY AND IMMORTALITY. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I see that the clergy are still making all kinds of + charges against you and your doctrines. + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes. Some of the charges are true and some of them are not. + I suppose that they intend to get in the vicinity of veracity, and are + probably stating my belief as it is honestly misunderstood by them. I + admit that I have said and that I still think that Christianity is a + blunder. But the question arises, What is Christianity? I do not mean, + when I say that Christianity is a blunder, that the morality taught by + Christians is a mistake. Morality is not distinctively Christian, any more + than it is Mohammedan. Morality is human, it belongs to no ism, and does + not depend for a foundation upon the supernatural, or upon any book, or + upon any creed. Morality is itself a foundation. When I say that + Christianity is a blunder, I mean all those things distinctively Christian + are blunders. It is a blunder to say that an infinite being lived in + Palestine, learned the carpenter's trade, raised the dead, cured the + blind, and cast out devils, and that this God was finally assassinated by + the Jews. This is absurd. All these statements are blunders, if not worse. + I do not believe that Christ ever claimed that he was of supernatural + origin, or that he wrought miracles, or that he would rise from the dead. + If he did, he was mistaken—honestly mistaken, perhaps, but still + mistaken. + </p> + <p> + The morality inculcated by Mohammed is good. The immorality inculcated by + Mohammed is bad. If Mohammed was a prophet of God, it does not make the + morality he taught any better, neither does it make the immorality any + better or any worse. + </p> + <p> + By this time the whole world ought to know that morality does not need to + go into partnership with miracles. Morality is based upon the experience + of mankind. It does not have to learn of inspired writers, or of gods, or + of divine persons. It is a lesson that the whole human race has been + learning and learning from experience. He who upholds, or believes in, or + teaches, the miraculous, commits a blunder. + </p> + <p> + Now, what is morality? Morality is the best thing to do under the + circumstances. Anything that tends to the happiness of mankind is moral. + Anything that tends to unhappiness is immoral. We apply to the moral world + rules and regulations as we do in the physical world. The man who does + justice, or tries to do so—who is honest and kind and gives to + others what he claims for himself, is a moral man. All actions must be + judged by their consequences. Where the consequences are good, the actions + are good. Where the consequences are bad, the actions are bad; and all + consequences are learned from experience. After we have had a certain + amount of experience, we then reason from analogy. We apply our logic and + say that a certain course will bring destruction, another course will + bring happiness. There is nothing inspired about morality—nothing + supernatural. It is simply good, common sense, going hand in hand with + kindness. + </p> + <p> + Morality is capable of being demonstrated. You do not have to take the + word of anybody; you can observe and examine for yourself. Larceny is the + enemy of industry, and industry is good; therefore larceny is immoral. The + family is the unit of good government; anything that tends to destroy the + family is immoral. Honesty is the mother of confidence; it united, + combines and solidifies society. Dishonesty is disintegration; it destroys + confidence; it brings social chaos; it is therefore immoral. + </p> + <p> + I also admit that I regard the Mosaic account of the creation as an + absurdity—as a series of blunders. Probably Moses did the best he + could. He had never talked with Humboldt or Laplace. He knew nothing of + geology or astronomy. He had not the slightest suspicion of Kepler's Three + Laws. He never saw a copy of Newton's Principia. Taking all these things + into consideration, I think Moses did the best he could. + </p> + <p> + The religious people say now that "days" did not mean days. Of these "six + days" they make a kind of telescope, which you can push in or draw out at + pleasure. If the geologists find that more time was necessary they will + stretch them out. Should it turn out that the world is not quite as old as + some think, they will push them up. The "six days" can now be made to suit + any period of time. Nothing can be more childish, frivolous or + contradictory. + </p> + <p> + Only a few years ago the Mosaic account was considered true, and Moses was + regarded as a scientific authority. Geology and astronomy were measured by + the Mosaic standard. The opposite is now true. The church has changed; and + instead of trying to prove that modern astronomy and geology are false, + because they do not agree with Moses, it is now endeavoring to prove that + the account by Moses is true, because it agrees with modern astronomy and + geology. In other words, the standard has changed; the ancient is measured + by the modern, and where the literal statement in the Bible does not agree + with modern discoveries, they do not change the discoveries, but give new + meanings to the old account. We are not now endeavoring to reconcile + science with the Bible, but to reconcile the Bible with science. + </p> + <p> + Nothing shows the extent of modern doubt more than the eagerness with + which Christians search for some new testimony. Luther answered Copernicus + with a passage of Scripture, and he answered him to the satisfaction of + orthodox ignorance. + </p> + <p> + The truth is that the Jews adopted the stories of Creation, the Garden of + Eden, Forbidden Fruit, and the Fall of Man. They were told by older + barbarians than they, and the Jews gave them to us. + </p> + <p> + I never said that the Bible is all bad. I have always admitted that there + are many good and splendid things in the Jewish Scriptures, and many bad + things. What I insist is that we should have the courage and the common + sense to accept the good, and throw away the bad. Evil is not good because + found in good company, and truth is still truth, even when surrounded by + falsehood. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I see that you are frequently charged with disrespect + toward your parents—with lack of reverence for the opinions of your + father? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think my father and mother upon several religious + questions were mistaken. In fact, I have no doubt that they were; but I + never felt under the slightest obligation to defend my father's mistakes. + No one can defend what he thinks is a mistake, without being dishonest. + That is a poor way to show respect for parents. Every Protestant clergyman + asks men and women who had Catholic parents to desert the church in which + they were raised. They have no hesitation in saying to these people that + their fathers and mothers were mistaken, and that they were deceived by + priests and popes. + </p> + <p> + The probability is that we are all mistaken about almost everything; but + it is impossible for a man to be respectable enough to make a mistake + respectable. There is nothing remarkably holy in a blunder, or + praiseworthy in stubbing the toe of the mind against a mistake. Is it + possible that logic stands paralyzed in the presence of paternal + absurdity? Suppose a man has a bad father; is he bound by the bad father's + opinion, when he is satisfied that the opinion is wrong? How good does a + father have to be, in order to put his son under obligation to defend his + blunders? Suppose the father thinks one way, and the mother the other; + what are the children to do? Suppose the father changes his opinion; what + then? Suppose the father thinks one way and the mother the other, and they + both die when the boy is young; and the boy is bound out; whose mistakes + is he then bound to follow? Our missionaries tell the barbarian boy that + his parents are mistaken, that they know nothing, and that the wooden god + is nothing but a senseless idol. They do not hesitate to tell this boy + that his mother believed lies, and hugged, it may be to her dying heart, a + miserable delusion. Why should a barbarian boy cast reproach upon his + parents? + </p> + <p> + I believe it was Christ who commanded his disciples to leave father and + mother; not only to leave them, but to desert them; and not only to desert + father and mother, but to desert wives and children. It is also told of + Christ that he said that he came to set fathers against children and + children against fathers. Strange that a follower of his should object to + a man differing in opinion from his parents! The truth is, logic knows + nothing of consanguinity; facts have no relatives but other facts; and + these facts do not depend upon the character of the person who states + them, or upon the position of the discoverer. And this leads me to another + branch of the same subject. + </p> + <p> + The ministers are continually saying that certain great men—kings, + presidents, statesmen, millionaires—have believed in the inspiration + of the Bible. Only the other day, I read a sermon in which Carlyle was + quoted as having said that "the Bible is a noble book." That all may be + and yet the book not be inspired. But what is the simple assertion of + Thomas Carlyle worth? If the assertion is based upon a reason, then it is + worth simply the value of the reason, and the reason is worth just as much + without the assertion, but without the reason the assertion is worthless. + Thomas Carlyle thought, and solemnly put the thought in print, that his + father was a greater man than Robert Burns. His opinion did Burns no harm, + and his father no good. Since reading his "Reminiscences," I have no great + opinion of his opinion. In some respects he was undoubtedly a great man, + in others a small one. + </p> + <p> + No man should give the opinion of another as authority and in place of + fact and reason, unless he is willing to take all the opinions of that + man. An opinion is worth the warp and woof of fact and logic in it and no + more. A man cannot add to the truthfulness of truth. In the ordinary + business of life, we give certain weight to the opinion of specialists—to + the opinion of doctors, lawyers, scientists, and historians. Within the + domain of the natural, we take the opinions of our fellow-men; but we do + not feel that we are absolutely bound by these opinions. We have the right + to re- examine them, and if we find they are wrong we feel at liberty to + say so. A doctor is supposed to have studied medicine; to have examined + and explored the questions entering into his profession; but we know that + doctors are often mistaken. We also know that there are many schools of + medicine; that these schools disagree with one another, and that the + doctors of each school disagree with one another. We also know that many + patients die, and so far as we know, these patients have not come back to + tell us whether the doctors killed them or not. The grave generally + prevents a demonstration. It is exactly the same with the clergy. They + have many schools of theology, all despising each other. Probably no two + members of the same church exactly agree. They cannot demonstrate their + propositions, because between the premise and the logical conclusion or + demonstration, stands the tomb. A gravestone marks the end of theology. In + some cases, the physician can, by a post- mortem examination, find what + killed the patient, but there is no theological post-mortem. It is + impossible, by cutting a body open, to find where the soul has gone; or + whether baptism, or the lack of it, had the slightest effect upon final + destiny. The church, knowing that there are no facts beyond the coffin, + relies upon opinions, assertions and theories. For this reason it is + always asking alms of distinguished people. Some President wishes to be + re-elected, and thereupon speaks about the Bible as "the corner- stone of + American Liberty." This sentence is a mouth large enough to swallow any + church, and from that time forward the religious people will be citing + that remark of the politician to substantiate the inspiration of the + Scriptures. + </p> + <p> + The man who accepts opinions because they have been entertained by + distinguished people, is a mental snob. When we blindly follow authority + we are serfs. When our reason is convinced we are freemen. It is rare to + find a fully rounded and complete man. A man may be a great doctor and a + poor mechanic, a successful politician and a poor metaphysician, a poor + painter and a good poet. + </p> + <p> + The rarest thing in the world is a logician—that is to say, a man + who knows the value of a fact. It is hard to find mental proportion. + Theories may be established by names, but facts cannot be demonstrated in + that way. Very small people are sometimes right, and very great people are + sometimes wrong. Ministers are sometimes right. + </p> + <p> + In all the philosophies of the world there are undoubtedly contradictions + and absurdities. The mind of man is imperfect and perfect results are + impossible. A mirror, in order to reflect a perfect picture, a perfect + copy, must itself be perfect. The mind is a little piece of intellectual + glass the surface of which is not true, not perfect. In consequence of + this, every image is more or less distorted. The less we know, the more we + imagine that we can know; but the more we know, the smaller seems the sum + of knowledge. The less we know, the more we expect, the more we hope for, + and the more seems within the range of probability. The less we have, the + more we want. There never was a banquet magnificent enough to gratify the + imagination of a beggar. The moment people begin to reason about what they + call the supernatural, they seem to lose their minds. People seem to have + lost their reason in religious matters, very much as the dodo is said to + have lost its wings; they have been restricted to a little inspired + island, and by disuse their reason has been lost. + </p> + <p> + In the Jewish Scriptures you will find simply the literature of the Jews. + You will find there the tears and anguish of captivity, patriotic fervor, + national aspiration, proverbs for the conduct of daily life, laws, + regulations, customs, legends, philosophy and folly. These books, of + course, were not written by one man, but by many authors. They do not + agree, having been written in different centuries, under different + circumstances. I see that Mr. Beecher has at last concluded that the Old + Testament does not teach the doctrine of immortality. He admits that from + Mount Sinai came no hope for the dead. It is very curious that we find in + the Old Testament no funeral service. No one stands by the dead and + predicts another life. In the Old Testament there is no promise of another + world. I have sometimes thought that while the Jews were slaves in Egypt, + the doctrine of immortality became hateful. They built so many tombs; they + carried so many burdens to commemorate the dead; the saw a nation waste + its wealth to adorn its graves, and leave the living naked to embalm the + dead, that they concluded the doctrine was a curse and never should be + taught. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. If the Jews did not believe in immortality, how do you + account for the allusions made to witches and wizards and things of that + nature? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. When Saul visited the Witch of Endor, and she, by some + magic spell, called up Samuel, the prophet said: "Why hast thou disquieted + me, to call me up?" He did not say: Why have you called me from another + world? The idea expressed is: I was asleep, why did you disturb that + repose which should be eternal? The ancient Jews believed in witches and + wizards and familiar spirits; but they did not seem to think that these + spirits had once been men and women. They spoke to them as belonging to + another world, a world to which man would never find his way. At that time + it was supposed that Jehovah and his angels lived in the sky, but that + region was not spoken of as the destined home of man. Jacob saw angels + going up and down the ladder, but not the spirits of those he had known. + There are two cases where it seems that men were good enough to be adopted + into the family of heaven. Enoch was translated, and Elijah was taken up + in a chariot of fire. As it is exceedingly cold at the height of a few + miles, it is easy to see why the chariot was of fire, and the same fact + explains another circumstance—the dropping of the mantle. The Jews + probably believed in the existence of other beings—that is to say, + in angels and gods and evil spirits —and that they lived in other + worlds—but there is no passage showing that they believed in what we + call the immortality of the soul. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you believe, or disbelieve, in the immortality of the + soul? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I neither assert nor deny; I simply admit that I do not + know. Upon that subject I am absolutely without evidence. This is the only + world that I was ever in. There may be spirits, but I have never met them, + and do not know that I would recognize a spirit. I can form no conception + of what is called spiritual life. It may be that I am deficient in + imagination, and that ministers have no difficulty in conceiving of angels + and disembodied souls. I have not the slightest idea how a soul looks, + what shape it is, how it goes from one place to another, whether it walks + or flies. I cannot conceive of the immaterial having form; neither can I + conceive of anything existing without form, and yet the fact that I cannot + conceive of a thing does not prove that the thing does not exist, but it + does prove that I know nothing about it, and that being so, I ought to + admit my ignorance. I am satisfied of a good many things that I do not + know. I am satisfied that there is no place of eternal torment. I am + satisfied that that doctrine has done more harm than all the religious + ideas, other than that, have done good. I do not want to take any hope + from any human heart. I have no objection to people believing in any good + thing—no objection to their expecting a crown of infinite joy for + every human being. Many people imagine that immortality must be an + infinite good; but, after all, there is something terrible in the idea of + endless life. Think of a river that never reaches the sea; of a bird that + never folds its wings; of a journey that never ends. Most people find + great pleasure in thinking about and in believing in another world. There + the prisoner expects to be free; the slave to find liberty; the poor man + expects wealth; the rich man happiness; the peasant dreams of power, and + the king of contentment. They expect to find there what they lack here. I + do not wish to destroy these dreams. I am endeavoring to put out the + everlasting fires. A good, cool grave is infinitely better than the fiery + furnace of Jehovah's wrath. Eternal sleep is better than eternal pain. For + my part I would rather be annihilated than to be an angel, with all the + privileges of heaven, and yet have within my breast a heart that could be + happy while those who had loved me in this world were in perdition. + </p> + <p> + I most sincerely hope that the future life will fulfill all splendid + dreams; but in the religion of the present day there is no joy. Nothing is + so devoid of comfort, when bending above our dead, as the assertions of + theology unsupported by a single fact. The promises are so far away, and + the dead are so near. From words spoken eighteen centuries ago, the echoes + are so weak, and the sounds of the clods on the coffin are so loud. Above + the grave what can the honest minister say? If the dead were not a + Christian, what then? What comfort can the orthodox clergyman give to the + widow of an honest unbeliever? If Christianity is true, the other world + will be worse than this. There the many will be miserable, only the few + happy; there the miserable cannot better their condition; the future has + no star of hope, and in the east of eternity there can never be a dawn. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. If you take away the idea of eternal punishment, how do + you propose to restrain men; in what way will you influence conduct for + good? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Well, the trouble with religion is that it postpones + punishment and reward to another world. Wrong is wrong, because it breeds + unhappiness. Right is right, because it tends to the happiness of man. + These facts are the basis of what I call the religion of this world. When + a man does wrong, the consequences follow, and between the cause and + effect, a Redeemer cannot step. Forgiveness cannot form a breastwork + between act and consequence. + </p> + <p> + There should be a religion of the body—a religion that will prevent + deformity, that will refuse to multiply insanity, that will not propagate + disease—a religion that is judged by its consequences in this world. + Orthodox Christianity has taught, and still teaches, that in this world + the difference between the good and the bad is that the bad enjoy + themselves, while the good carry the cross of virtue with bleeding brows + bound and pierced with the thorns of honesty and kindness. All this, in my + judgment, is immoral. The man who does wrong carries a cross. There is no + world, no star, in which the result of wrong is real happiness. There is + no world, no star, in which the result of doing right is unhappiness. + Virtue and vice must be the same everywhere. + </p> + <p> + Vice must be vice everywhere, because its consequences are evil; and + virtue must be virtue everywhere, because its consequences are good. There + can be no such thing as forgiveness. These facts are the only restraining + influences possible—the innocent man cannot suffer for the guilty + and satisfy the law. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How do you answer the argument, or the fact, that the + church is constantly increasing, and that there are now four hundred + millions of Christians? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. That is what I call the argument of numbers. If that + argument is good now, it was always good. If Christians were at any time + in the minority, then, according to this argument, Christianity was wrong. + Every religion that has succeeded has appealed to the argument of numbers. + There was a time when Buddhism was in a majority. Buddha not only had, but + has more followers then Christ. Success is not a demonstration. Mohammed + was a success, and a success from the commencement. Upon a thousand fields + he was victor. Of the scattered tribes of the desert, he made a nation, + and this nation took the fairest part of Europe from the followers of the + cross. In the history of the world, the success of Mohammed is + unparalleled, but this success does not establish that he was the prophet + of God. + </p> + <p> + Now, it is claimed that there are some four hundred millions of + Christians. To make that total I am counted as a Christian; I am one of + the fifty or sixty millions of Christians in the United States—excluding + Indians, not taxed. By this census report, we are all going to heaven—we + are all orthodox. At the last great day we can refer with confidence to + the ponderous volumes containing the statistics of the United States. As a + matter of fact, how many Christians are there in the United States—how + many believers in the inspiration of the Scriptures—how many real + followers of Christ? I will not pretend to give the number, but I will + venture to say that there are not fifty millions. How many in England? + Where are the four hundred millions found? To make this immense number, + they have counted all the Heretics, all the Catholics, all the Jews, + Spiritualists, Universalists and Unitarians, all the babes, all the + idiotic and insane, all the Infidels, all the scientists, all the + unbelievers. As a matter of fact, they have no right to count any except + the orthodox members of the orthodox churches. There may be more "members" + now than formerly, and this increase of members is due to a decrease of + religion. Thousands of members are only nominal Christians, wearing the + old uniform simply because they do not wish to be charged with desertion. + The church, too, is a kind of social institution, a club with a creed + instead of by-laws, and the creed is never defended unless attacked by an + outsider. No objection is made to the minister because he is liberal, if + he says nothing about it in his pulpit. A man like Mr. Beecher draws a + congregation, not because he is a Christian, but because he is a genius; + not because he is orthodox, but because he has something to say. He is an + intellectual athlete. He is full of pathos and poetry. He has more + description than divinity; more charity than creed, and altogether more + common sense than theology. For these reasons thousands of people love to + hear him. On the other hand, there are many people who have a morbid + desire for the abnormal—for intellectual deformities—for + thoughts that have two heads. This accounts for the success of some of Mr. + Beecher's rivals. + </p> + <p> + Christians claim that success is a test of truth. Has any church succeeded + as well as the Catholic? Was the tragedy of the Garden of Eden a success? + Who succeeded there? The last best thought is not a success, if you mean + that only that is a success which has succeeded, and if you mean by + succeeding, that it has won the assent of the majority. Besides there is + no time fixed for the test. Is that true which succeeds to-day, or next + year, or in the next century? Once the Copernican system was not a + success. There is no time fixed. The result is that we have to wait. A + thing to exist at all has to be, to a certain extent, a success. A thing + cannot even die without having been a success. It certainly succeeded + enough to have life. Presbyterians should remember, while arguing the + majority argument, and the success argument, that there are far more + Catholics than Protestants, and that the Catholics can give a longer list + of distinguished names. + </p> + <p> + My answer to all this, however, is that the history of the world shows + that ignorance has always been in the majority. There is one right road; + numberless paths that are wrong. Truth is one; error is many. When a great + truth has been discovered, one man has pitted himself against the world. A + few think; the many believe. The few lead; the many follow. The light of + the new day, as it looks over the window sill of the east, falls at first + on only one forehead. + </p> + <p> + There is another thing. A great many people pass for Christians who are + not. Only a little while ago a couple of ladies were returning from church + in a carriage. They had listened to a good orthodox sermon. One said to + the other: "I am going to tell you something—I am going to shock you—I + do not believe in the Bible." And the other replied: "Neither do I." + </p> + <p> + —<i>The News</i>, Detroit, Michigan, January 6, 1884. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0034" id="link0034"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + POLITICS, MORMONISM AND MR. BEECHER + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What will be the main issues in the next presidential + campaign? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think that the principal issues will be civil rights and + protection for American industries. The Democratic party is not a unit on + the tariff question—neither is the Republican; but I think that a + majority of the Democrats are in favor of free trade and a majority of + Republicans in favor of a protective tariff. The Democratic Congressmen + will talk just enough about free trade to frighten the manufacturing + interests of the country, and probably not quite enough to satisfy the + free traders. The result will be that the Democrats will talk about + reforming the tariff, but will do nothing but talk. I think the tariff + ought to be reformed in many particulars; but as long as we need to raise + a great revenue my idea is that it ought to be so arranged as to protect + to the utmost, without producing monopoly in American manufacturers. I am + in favor of protection because it multiplies industries; and I am in favor + of a great number of industries because they develop the brain, because + they give employment to all and allow us to utilize all the muscle and all + the sense we have. If we were all farmers we would grow stupid. If we all + worked at one kind of mechanic art we would grow dull. But with a variety + of industries, with a constant premium upon ingenuity, with the promise of + wealth as the reward of success in any direction, the people become + intelligent, and while we are protecting our industries we develop our + brains. So I am in favor of the protection of civil rights by the Federal + Government, and that, in my judgment, will be one of the great issues in + the next campaign. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I see that you say that one of the great issues in the + coming campaign will be civil rights; what do you mean by that? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Well, I mean this. The Supreme Court has recently decided + that a colored man whose rights are trampled upon, in a State, cannot + appeal to the Federal Government for protection. The decision amounts to + this: That Congress has no right until a State has acted, and has acted + contrary to the Constitution. Now, if a State refuses to do anything upon + the subject, what is the citizen to do? My opinion is that the Government + is bound to protect its citizens, and as a consideration for this + protection, the citizen is bound to stand by the Government. When the + nation calls for troops, the citizen of each State is bound to respond, no + matter what his State may think. This doctrine must be maintained, or the + United States ceases to be a nation. If a man looks to his State for + protection, then he must go with his State. My doctrine is, that there + should be patriotism upon the one hand, and protection upon the other. If + a State endeavors to secede from the Union, a citizen of that State should + be in a position to defy the State and appeal to the Nation for + protection. The doctrine now is, that the General Government turns the + citizen over to the State for protection, and if the State does not + protect him, that is his misfortune; and the consequence of this doctrine + will be to build up the old heresy of State Sovereignty—a doctrine + that was never appealed to except in the interest of thieving or robbery. + That doctrine was first appealed to when the Constitution was formed, + because they were afraid the National Government would interfere with the + slave trade. It was next appealed to, to uphold the Fugitive Slave Law. It + was next appealed to, to give the territories of the United States to + slavery. Then it was appealed to, to support rebellion, and now out of + this doctrine they attempt to build a breastwork, behind which they can + trample upon the rights of free colored men. + </p> + <p> + I believe in the sovereignty of the Nation. A nation that cannot protect + its citizens ought to stop playing nation. In the old times the Supreme + Court found no difficulty in supporting slavery by "inference," by + "intendment," but now that liberty has become national, the Court is + driven to less than a literal interpretation. If the Constitution does not + support liberty, it is of no use. To maintain liberty is the only + legitimate object of human government. I hope the time will come when the + judges of the Supreme Court will be elected, say for a period of ten + years. I do not believe in the legal monk system. I believe in judges + still maintaining an interest in human affairs. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the Mormon question? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not believe in the bayonet plan. Mormonism must be + done away with by the thousand influences of civilization, by education, + by the elevation of the people. Of course, a gentleman would rather have + one noble woman than a hundred females. I hate the system of polygamy. + Nothing is more infamous. I admit that the Old Testament upholds it. I + admit that the patriarchs were mostly polygamists. I admit that Solomon + was mistaken on that subject. But notwithstanding the fact that polygamy + is upheld by the Jewish Scriptures, I believe it to be a great wrong. At + the same time if you undertake to get the idea out of the Mormons by force + you will not succeed. I think a good way to do away with that institution + would be for all the churches to unite, bear the expense, and send + missionaries to Utah; let these ministers call the people together and + read to them the lives of David, Solomon, Abraham and other patriarchs. + Let all the missionaries be called home from foreign fields and teach + these people that they should not imitate the only men with whom God ever + condescended to hold intercourse. Let these frightful examples be held up + to these people, and if it is done earnestly, it seems to me that the + result would be good. + </p> + <p> + Polygamy exists. All laws upon the subject should take that fact into + consideration, and punishment should be provided for offences thereafter + committed. The children of Mormons should be legitimized. In other words, + in attempting to settle this question, we should accomplish all the good + possible, with the least possible harm. + </p> + <p> + I agree mostly with Mr. Beecher, and I utterly disagree with the Rev. Mr. + Newman. Mr. Newman wants to kill and slay. He does not rely upon + Christianity, but upon brute force. He has lost his confidence in example, + and appeals to the bayonet. Mr. Newman had a discussion with one of the + Mormon elders, and was put to ignominious flight; no wonder that he + appeals to force. Having failed in argument, he calls for artillery; + having been worsted in the appeal to Scripture, he asks for the sword. He + says, failing to convert, let us kill; and he takes this position in the + name of the religion of kindness and forgiveness. + </p> + <p> + Strange that a minister now should throw away the Bible and yell for a + bayonet; that he should desert the Scriptures and call for soldiers; that + he should lose confidence in the power of the Spirit and trust in a sword. + I recommend that Mormonism be done away with by distributing the Old + Testament throughout Utah. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the investigation of the Department + of Justice now going on? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The result, in my judgment, will depend on its + thoroughness. If Mr. Springer succeeds in proving exactly what the + Department of Justice did, the methods pursued, if he finds out what their + spies and detectives and agents were instructed to do, then I think the + result will be as disastrous to the Department as beneficial to the + country. The people seem to have forgotten that a little while after the + first Star Route trial three of the agents of the Department of Justice + were indicted for endeavoring to bribe the jury. They forget that Mr. + Bowen, an agent of the Department of Justice, is a fugitive, because he + endeavored to bribe the foreman of the jury. They seem to forget that the + Department of Justice, in order to cover its own tracks, had the foreman + of the jury indicted because one of its agents endeavored to bribe him. + Probably this investigation will nudge the ribs of the public enough to + make people remember these things. Personally, I have no feelings on the + subject. It was enough for me that we succeeded in thwarting its methods, + in spite of the detectives, spies, and informers. + </p> + <p> + The Department is already beginning to dissolve. Brewster Cameron has left + it, and as a reward has been exiled to Arizona. Mr. Brewster will probably + be the next to pack his official valise. A few men endeavored to win + popularity by pursuing a few others, and thus far they have been + conspicuous failures. MacVeagh and James are to-day enjoying the oblivion + earned by misdirected energy, and Mr. Brewster will soon keep them + company. The history of the world does not furnish an instance of more + flagrant abuse of power. There never was a trial as shamelessly conducted + by a government. But, as I said before, I have no feeling now except that + of pity. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I see that Mr. Beecher is coming round to your views on + theology? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I would not have the egotism to say that he was coming + round to my views, but evidently Mr. Beecher has been growing. His head + has been instructed by his heart; and if a man will allow even the poor + plant of pity to grow in his heart he will hold in infinite execration all + orthodox religion. The moment he will allow himself to think that eternal + consequences depend upon human life; that the few short years we live in + the world determine for an eternity the question of infinite joy or + infinite pain; the moment he thinks of that he will see that it is an + infinite absurdity. For instance, a man is born in Arkansas and lives + there to be seventeen or eighteen years of age, is it possible that he can + be truthfully told at the day of judgment that he had a fair chance? Just + imagine a man being held eternally responsible for his conduct in + Delaware! Mr. Beecher is a man of great genius—full of poetry and + pathos. Every now and then he is driven back by the orthodox members of + his congregation toward the old religion, and for the benefit of those + weak disciples he will preach what is called "a doctrinal sermon;" but + before he gets through with it, seeing that it is infinitely cruel, he + utters a cry of horror, and protests with all the strength of his nature + against the cruelty of the creed. I imagine that he has always thought + that he was under great obligation to Plymouth Church, but the truth is + that the church depends upon him; that church gets its character from Mr. + Beecher. He has done a vast deal to ameliorate the condition of the + average orthodox mind. He excites the envy of the mediocre minister, and + he excites the hatred of the really orthodox, but he receives the + approbation of good and generous men everywhere. For my part, I have no + quarrel with any religion that does not threaten eternal punishment to + very good people, and that does not promise eternal reward to very bad + people. If orthodox Christianity is true, some of the best people I know + are going to hell, and some of the meanest I have ever known are either in + heaven or on the road. Of course, I admit that there are thousands and + millions of good Christians—honest and noble people, but in my + judgment, Mr. Beecher is the greatest man in the world who now occupies a + pulpit. + </p> + <hr /> + <p> + Speaking of a man's living in Delaware, a young man, some time ago, came + up to me on the street, in an Eastern city and asked for money. "What is + your business," I asked. "I am a waiter by profession." "Where do you come + from?" "Delaware." "Well, what was the matter —did you drink, or + cheat your employer, or were you idle?" "No." "What was the trouble?" + "Well, the truth is, the State is so small they don't need any waiters; + they all reach for what they want." + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you not think there are some dangerous tendencies in + Liberalism? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I will first state this proposition: The credit system in + morals, as in business, breeds extravagance. The cash system in morals, as + well as in business, breeds economy. We will suppose a community in which + everybody is bound to sell on credit, and in which every creditor can take + the benefit of the bankrupt law every Saturday night, and the constable + pays the costs. In my judgment that community would be extravagant as long + as the merchants lasted. We will take another community in which everybody + has to pay cash, and in my judgment that community will be a very + economical one. Now, then, let us apply this to morals. Christianity + allows everybody to sin on a credit, and allows a man who has lived, we + will say sixty-nine years, what Christians are pleased to call a worldly + life, an immoral life. They allow him on his death-bed, between the last + dose of medicine and the last breath, to be converted, and that man who + has done nothing except evil, becomes an angel. Here is another man who + has lived the same length of time, doing all the good he possibly could + do, but not meeting with what they are pleased to call "a change of + heart;" he goes to a world of pain. Now, my doctrine is that everybody + must reap exactly what he sows, other things being equal. If he acts badly + he will not be very happy; if he acts well he will not be very sad. I + believe in the doctrine of consequences, and that every man must stand the + consequences of his own acts. It seems to me that that fact will have a + greater restraining influence than the idea that you can, just before you + leave this world, shift your burden on to somebody else. I am a believer + in the restraining influences of liberty, because responsibility goes hand + in hand with freedom. I do not believe that the gallows is the last step + between earth and heaven. I do not believe in the conversion and salvation + of murderers while their innocent victims are in hell. The church has + taught so long that he who acts virtuously carries a cross, and that only + sinners enjoy themselves, that it may be that for a little while after men + leave the church they may go to extremes until they demonstrate for + themselves that the path of vice is the path of thorns, and that only + along the wayside of virtue grow the flowers of joy. The church has + depicted virtue as a sour, wrinkled termagant; an old woman with nothing + but skin and bones, and a temper beyond description; and at the same time + vice has been painted in all the voluptuous outlines of a Greek statue. + The truth is exactly the other way. A thing is right because it pays; a + thing is wrong because it does not; and when I use the word "pays," I mean + in the highest and noblest sense. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Daily News</i>, Denver, Colorado, January 17, 1884. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0035" id="link0035"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + FREE TRADE AND CHRISTIANITY. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. Who will be the Republican nominee for President? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The correct answer to this question would make so many men + unhappy that I have concluded not to give it. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Has not the Democracy injured itself irretrievably by + permitting the free trade element to rule it? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not think that the Democratic party weakened itself by + electing Carlisle, Speaker. I think him an excellent man, an exceedingly + candid man, and one who will do what he believes ought to be done. I have + a very high opinion of Mr. Carlisle. I do not suppose any party in this + country is really for free trade. I find that all writers upon the + subject, no matter which side they are on, are on that side with certain + exceptions. Adam Smith was in favor of free trade, with a few exceptions, + and those exceptions were in matters where he thought it was for England's + interest not to have free trade. The same may be said of all writers. So + far as I can see, the free traders have all the arguments and the + protectionists all the facts. The free trade theories are splendid, but + they will not work; the results are disastrous. We find by actual + experiment that it is better to protect home industries. It was once said + that protection created nothing but monopoly; the argument was that way, + but the facts are not. Take, for instance, steel rails; when we bought + them of England we paid one hundred and twenty-five dollars a ton. I + believe there was a tariff of twenty-eight or twenty-nine dollars a ton, + and yet in spite of all the arguments going to show that protection would + simply increase prices in America, would simply enrich the capitalists and + impoverish the consumer, steel rails are now produced, I believe, right + here in Colorado for forty-two dollars a ton. + </p> + <p> + After all, it is a question of labor; a question of prices that shall be + paid the laboring man; a question of what the laboring man shall eat; + whether he shall eat meat or soup made from the bones. Very few people + take into consideration the value of raw material and the value of labor. + Take, for instance, your ton of steel rails worth forty-two dollars. The + iron in the earth is not worth twenty-five cents. The coal in the earth + and the lime in the ledge together are not worth twenty-five cents. Now, + then, of the forty-two dollars, forty-one and a half is labor. There is + not two dollars' worth of raw material in a locomotive worth fifteen + thousand dollars. By raw material I mean the material in the earth. There + is not in the works of a watch which will sell for fifteen dollars, raw + material of the value of one-half cent. All the rest is labor. A ship, a + man-of-war that costs one million dollars— the raw material in the + earth is not worth, in my judgment, one thousand dollars. All the rest is + labor. If there is any way to protect American labor, I am in favor of it. + If the present tariff does not do it, then I am in favor of changing to + one that will. If the Democratic party takes a stand for free trade or + anything like it, they will need protection; they will need protection at + the polls; that is to say, they will meet only with defeat and disaster. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What should be done with the surplus revenue? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. My answer to that is, reduce internal revenue taxation + until the present surplus is exhausted, and then endeavor so to arrange + your tariff that you will not produce more than you need. I think the + easiest question to grapple with on this earth is a surplus of money. + </p> + <p> + I do not believe in distributing it among the States. I do not think there + could be a better certificate of the prosperity of our country than the + fact that we are troubled with a surplus revenue; that we have the + machinery for collecting taxes in such perfect order, so ingeniously + contrived, that it cannot be stopped; that it goes right on collecting + money, whether we want it or not; and the wonderful thing about it is that + nobody complains. If nothing else can be done with the surplus revenue, + probably we had better pay some of our debts. I would suggest, as a last + resort, to pay a few honest claims. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are you getting nearer to or farther away from God, + Christianity and the Bible? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In the first place, as Mr. Locke so often remarked, we will + define our terms. If by the word "God" is meant a person, a being, who + existed before the creation of the universe, and who controls all that is, + except himself, I do not believe in such a being; but if by the word God + is meant all that is, that is to say, the universe, including every atom + and every star, then I am a believer. I suppose the word that would + nearest describe me is "Pantheist." I cannot believe that a being existed + from eternity, and who finally created this universe after having wasted + an eternity in idleness; but upon this subject I know just as little as + anybody ever did or ever will, and, in my judgment, just as much. My + intellectual horizon is somewhat limited, and, to tell you the truth, this + is the only world that I was ever in. I am what might be called a + representative of a rural district, and, as a matter of fact, I know very + little about the district. I believe it was Confucius who said: "How + should I know anything about another world when I know so little of this?" + </p> + <p> + The greatest intellects of the world have endeavored to find words to + express their conception of God, of the first cause, or of the science of + being, but they have never succeeded. I find in the old Confession of + Faith, in the old Catechism, for instance, this description: That God is a + being without body, parts or passions. I think it would trouble anybody to + find a better definition of nothing. That describes a vacuum, that is to + say, that describes the absence of everything. I find that theology is a + subject that only the most ignorant are certain about, and that the more a + man thinks, the less he knows. + </p> + <p> + From the Bible God, I do not know that I am going farther and farther + away. I have been about as far as a man could get for many years. I do not + believe in the God of the Old Testament. + </p> + <p> + Now, as to the next branch of your question, Christianity. + </p> + <p> + The question arises, What is Christianity? I have no objection to the + morality taught as a part of Christianity, no objection to its charity, + its forgiveness, its kindness; no objection to its hope for this world and + another, not the slightest, but all these things do not make Christianity. + Mohammed taught certain doctrines that are good, but the good in the + teachings of Mohammed is not Mohammedism. When I speak of Christianity I + speak of that which is distinctly Christian. For instance, the idea that + the Infinite God was born in Palestine, learned the carpenter's trade, + disputed with the parsons of his time, excited the wrath of the + theological bigots, and was finally crucified; that afterward he was + raised from the dead, and that if anybody believes this he will be saved + and if he fails to believe it, he will be lost; in other words, that which + is distinctly Christian in the Christian system, is its supernaturalism, + its miracles, its absurdity. Truth does not need to go into partnership + with the supernatural. What Christ said is worth the reason it contains. + If a man raises the dead and then says twice two are five, that changes no + rule in mathematics. If a multiplication table was divinely inspired, that + does no good. The question is, is it correct? So I think that in the world + of morals, we must prove that a thing is right or wrong by experience, by + analogy, not by miracles. There is no fact in physical science that can be + supernaturally demonstrated. Neither is there any fact in the moral world + that could be substantiated by miracles. Now, then, keeping in mind that + by Christianity I mean the supernatural in that system, of course I am + just as far away from it as I can get. For the man Christ I have respect. + He was an infidel in his day, and the ministers of his day cried out + blasphemy, as they have been crying ever since, against every person who + has suggested a new thought or shown the worthlessness of an old one. + </p> + <p> + Now, as to the third part of the question, the Bible. People say that the + Bible is inspired. Well, what does inspiration mean? Did God write it? No; + but the men who did write it were guided by the Holy Spirit. Very well. + Did they write exactly what the Holy Spirit wanted them to write? Well, + religious people say, yes. At the same time they admit that the gentlemen + who were collecting, or taking down in shorthand what was said, had to use + their own words. Now, we all know that the same words do not have the same + meaning to all people. It is impossible to convey the same thoughts to all + minds by the same language, and it is for that reason that the Bible has + produced so many sects, not only disagreeing with each other, but + disagreeing among themselves. + </p> + <p> + We find, then, that it is utterly impossible for God (admitting that there + is one) to convey the same thoughts in human language to all people. No + two persons understand the same language alike. A man's understanding + depends upon his experience, upon his capacity, upon the particular bent + of his mind—in fact, upon the countless influences that have made + him what he is. Everything in nature tells everyone who sees it a story, + but that story depends upon the capacity of the one to whom it is told. + The sea says one thing to the ordinary man, and another thing to + Shakespeare. The stars have not the same language for all people. The + consequence is that no book can tell the same story to any two persons. + The Jewish Scriptures are like other books, written by different men in + different ages of the world, hundreds of years apart, filled with + contradictions. They embody, I presume, fairly enough, the wisdom and + ignorance, the reason and prejudice, of the times in which they were + written. They are worth the good that is in them, and the question is + whether we will take the good and throw the bad away. There are good laws + and bad laws. There are wise and foolish sayings. There are gentle and + cruel passages, and you can find a text to suit almost any frame of mind; + whether you wish to do an act of charity or murder a neighbor's babe, you + will find a passage that will exactly fit the case. So that I can say that + I am still for the reasonable, for the natural; and am still opposed to + the absurd and supernatural. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is there any better or more ennobling belief than + Christianity; if so, what is it? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. There are many good things, of course, in every religion, + or they would not have existed; plenty of good precepts in Christianity, + but the thing that I object to more than all others is the doctrine of + eternal punishment, the idea of hell for many and heaven for the few. Take + from Christianity the doctrine of eternal punishment and I have no + particular objection to what is generally preached. If you will take that + away, and all the supernatural connected with it, I have no objection; but + that doctrine of eternal punishment tends to harden the human heart. It + has produced more misery than all the other doctrines in the world. It has + shed more blood; it has made more martyrs. It has lighted the fires of + persecution and kept the sword of cruelty wet with heroic blood for at + least a thousand years. There is no crime that that doctrine has not + produced. I think it would be impossible for the imagination to conceive + of a worse religion than orthodox Christianity—utterly impossible; a + doctrine that divides this world, a doctrine that divides families, a + doctrine that teaches the son that he can be happy, with his mother in + perdition; the husband that he can be happy in heaven while his wife + suffers the agonies of hell. This doctrine is infinite injustice, and + tends to subvert all ideas of justice in the human heart. I think it would + be impossible to conceive of a doctrine better calculated to make wild + beasts of men than that; in fact, that doctrine was born of all the wild + beast there is in man. It was born of infinite revenge. + </p> + <p> + Think of preaching that you must believe that a certain being was the son + of God, no matter whether your reason is convinced or not. Suppose one + should meet, we will say on London Bridge, a man clad in rags, and he + should stop us and say, "My friend, I wish to talk with you a moment. I am + the rightful King of Great Britain," and you should say to him, "Well, my + dinner is waiting; I have no time to bother about who the King of England + is," and then he should meet another and insist on his stopping while the + pulled out some papers to show that he was the rightful King of England, + and the other man should say, "I have got business here, my friend; I am + selling goods, and I have no time to bother my head about who the King of + England is. No doubt you are the King of England, but you don't look like + him." And then suppose he stops another man, and makes the same statement + to him, and the other man should laugh at him and say, "I don't want to + hear anything on this subject; you are crazy; you ought to go to some + insane asylum, or put something on your head to keep you cool." And + suppose, after all, it should turn out that the man was King of England, + and should afterward make his claim good and be crowned in Westminster. + What would we think of that King if he should hunt up the gentlemen that + he met on London Bridge, and have their heads cut off because they had no + faith that he was the rightful heir? And what would we think of a God now + who would damn a man eighteen hundred years after the event, because he + did not believe that he was God at the time he was living in Jerusalem; + not only damn the fellows that he met and who did not believe him, but + gentlemen who lived eighteen hundred years afterward, and who certainly + could have known nothing of the facts except from hearsay? + </p> + <p> + The best religion, after all, is common sense; a religion for this world, + one world at a time, a religion for to-day. We want a religion that will + deal in questions in which we are interested. How are we to do away with + crime? How are we to do away with pauperism? How are we to do away with + want and misery in every civilized country? England is a Christian nation, + and yet about one in six in the city of London dies in almshouses, + asylums, prisons, hospitals and jails. We, I suppose, are a civilized + nation, and yet all the penitentiaries are crammed; there is want on every + hand, and my opinion is that we had better turn our attention to this + world. + </p> + <p> + Christianity is charitable; Christianity spends a great deal of money; but + I am somewhat doubtful as to the good that is accomplished. There ought to + be some way to prevent crime; not simply to punish it. There ought to be + some way to prevent pauperism, not simply to relieve temporarily a pauper, + and if the ministers and good people belonging to the churches would spend + their time investigating the affairs of this world and let the New + Jerusalem take care of itself, I think it would be far better. + </p> + <p> + The church is guilty of one great contradiction. The ministers are always + talking about worldly people, and yet, were it not for worldly people, who + would pay the salary? How could the church live a minute unless somebody + attended to the affairs of this world? The best religion, in my judgment, + is common sense going along hand in hand with kindness, and not troubling + ourselves about another world until we get there. I am willing for one, to + wait and see what kind of a country it will be. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Does the question of the inspiration of Scriptures affect + the beauty and benefits of Christianity here and hereafter? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. A belief in the inspiration of the Scriptures has done, in + my judgment, great harm. The Bible has been the breastwork for nearly + everything wrong. The defenders of slavery relied on the Bible. The Bible + was the real auction block on which every negro stood when he was sold. I + never knew a minister to preach in favor of slavery that did not take his + text from the Bible. The Bible teaches persecution for opinion's sake. The + Bible—that is the Old Testament—upholds polygamy, and just to + the extent that men, through the Bible, have believed that slavery, + religious persecution, wars of extermination and polygamy were taught by + God, just to that extent the Bible has done great harm. The idea of + inspiration enslaves the human mind and debauches the human heart. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is not Christianity and the belief in God a check upon + mankind in general and thus a good thing in itself? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. This, again, brings up the question of what you mean by + Christianity, but taking it for granted that you mean by Christianity the + church, then I answer, when the church had almost absolute authority, then + the world was the worst. + </p> + <p> + Now, as to the other part of the question, "Is not a belief in God a check + upon mankind in general?" That is owing to what kind of God the man + believes in. When mankind believed in the God of the Old Testament, I + think that belief was a bad thing; the tendency was bad. I think that John + Calvin patterned after Jehovah as nearly as his health and strength would + permit. Man makes God in his own image, and bad men are not apt to have a + very good God if they make him. I believe it is far better to have a real + belief in goodness, in kindness, in honesty and in mankind than in any + supernatural being whatever. I do not suppose it would do any harm for a + man to believe in a real good God, a God without revenge, a God that was + not very particular in having a man believe a doctrine whether he could + understand it or not. I do not believe that a belief of that kind would do + any particular harm. + </p> + <p> + There is a vast difference between the God of John Calvin and the God of + Henry Ward Beecher, and a great difference between the God of Cardinal + Pedro Gonzales de Mendoza and the God of Theodore Parker. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Well, Colonel, is the world growing better or worse? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think better in some respects and worse in others; but on + the whole, better. I think that while events, like the pendulum of a + clock, go backward and forward, man, like the hands, goes forward. I think + there is more reason and less religion, more charity and less creed. I + think the church is improving. Ministers are ashamed to preach the old + doctrines with the old fervor. There was a time when the pulpit controlled + the pews. It is so no longer. The pews know what they want, and if the + minister does not furnish it they discharge him and employ another. He is + no longer an autocrat; he must bring to the market what his customers are + willing to buy. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What are you going to do to be saved? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Well, I think I am safe, anyway. I suppose I have a right + to rely on what Matthew says, that if I will forgive others God will + forgive me. I suppose if there is another world I shall be treated very + much as I treat others. I never expect to find perfect bliss anywhere; + maybe I should tire of it if I should. What I have endeavored to do has + been to put out the fires of an ignorant and cruel hell; to do what I + could to destroy that dogma; to destroy the doctrine that makes the cradle + as terrible as the coffin. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Denver Republican</i>, Denver, Colorado, January 17, 1884. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0036" id="link0036"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE OATH QUESTION. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I suppose that your attention has been called to the + excitement in England over the oath question, and you have probably + wondered that so much should have been made of so little? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes; I have read a few articles upon the subject, including + one by Cardinal Newman. It is wonderful that so many people imagine that + there is something miraculous in the oath. They seem to regard it as a + kind of verbal fetich, a charm, an "open sesame" to be pronounced at the + door of truth, a spell, a kind of moral thumbscrew, by means of which + falsehood itself is compelled to turn informer. + </p> + <p> + The oath has outlived its brother, "the wager of battle." Both were born + of the idea that God would interfere for the right and for the truth. + Trial by fire and by water had the same origin. It was once believed that + the man in the wrong could not kill the man in the right; but, experience + having shown that he usually did, the belief gradually fell into + disrepute. So it was once thought that a perjurer could not swallow a + piece of sacramental bread; but, the fear that made the swallowing + difficult having passed away, the appeal to the corsned was abolished. It + was found that a brazen or a desperate man could eat himself out of the + greatest difficulty with perfect ease, satisfying the law and his own + hunger at the same time. + </p> + <p> + The oath is a relic of barbarous theology, of the belief that a personal + God interferes in the affairs of men; that some God protects innocence and + guards the right. The experience of the world has sadly demonstrated the + folly of that belief. The testimony of a witness ought to be believed, not + because it is given under the solemnities of an oath, but because it is + reasonable. If unreasonable it ought to be thrown aside. The question + ought not to be, "Has this been sworn to?" but, "Is this true?" The moment + evidence is tested by the standard of reason, the oath becomes a useless + ceremony. Let the man who gives false evidence be punished as the + lawmaking power may prescribe. He should be punished because he commits a + crime against society, and he should be punished in this world. All honest + men will tell the truth if they can; therefore, oaths will have no effect + upon them. Dishonest men will not tell the truth unless the truth happens + to suit their purpose; therefore, oaths will have no effect upon them. We + punish them, not for swearing to a lie, but for telling it, and we can + make the punishment for telling the falsehood just as severe as we wish. + If they are to be punished in another world, the probability is that the + punishment there will be for having told the falsehood here. After all, a + lie is made no worse by an oath, and the truth is made no better. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. You object then to the oath. Is your objection based on + any religious grounds, or on any prejudice against the ceremony because of + its religious origin; or what is your objection? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I care nothing about the origin of the ceremony. The + objection to the oath is this: It furnishes a falsehood with a letter of + credit. It supplies the wolf with sheep's clothing and covers the hands of + Jacob with hair. It blows out the light, and in the darkness Leah is taken + for Rachel. It puts upon each witness a kind of theological gown. This + gown hides the moral rags of the depraved wretch as well as the virtues of + the honest man. The oath is a mask that falsehood puts on, and for a + moment is mistaken for truth. It gives to dishonesty the advantage of + solemnity. The tendency of the oath is to put all testimony on an + equality. The obscure rascal and the man of sterling character both + "swear," and jurors who attribute a miraculous quality to the oath, forget + the real difference in the men, and give about the same weight to the + evidence of each, because both were "sworn." A scoundrel is delighted with + the opportunity of going through a ceremony that gives importance and + dignity to his story, that clothes him for the moment with respectability, + loans him the appearance of conscience, and gives the ring of true coin to + the base metal. To him the oath is a shield. He is in partnership, for a + moment, with God, and people who have no confidence in the witness credit + the firm. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Of course you know the religionists insist that people + are more likely to tell the truth when "sworn," and that to take away the + oath is to destroy the foundation of testimony? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. If the use of the oath is defended on the ground that + religious people need a stimulus to tell the truth, then I am compelled to + say that religious people have been so badly educated that they mistake + the nature of the crime. + </p> + <p> + They should be taught that to defeat justice by falsehood is the real + offence. Besides, fear is not the natural foundation of virtue. Even with + religious people fear cannot always last. Ananias and Sapphira have been + dead so long, and since their time so many people have sworn falsely + without affecting their health that the fear of sudden divine vengeance no + longer pales the cheek of the perjurer. If the vengeance is not sudden, + then, according to the church, the criminal will have plenty of time to + repent; so that the oath no longer affects even the fearful. Would it not + be better for the church to teach that telling the falsehood is the real + crime, and that taking the oath neither adds to nor takes from its + enormity? Would it not be better to teach that he who does wrong must + suffer the consequences, whether God forgives him or not? + </p> + <p> + He who tries to injure another may or may not succeed, but he cannot by + any possibility fail to injure himself. Men should be taught that there is + no difference between truth-telling and truth-swearing. Nothing is more + vicious than the idea that any ceremony or form of words—hand-lifting + or book-kissing—can add, even in the slightest degree, to the + perpetual obligation every human being is under to speak the truth. + </p> + <p> + The truth, plainly told, naturally commends itself to the intelligent. + Every fact is a genuine link in the infinite chain, and will agree + perfectly with every other fact. A fact asks to be inspected, asks to be + understood. It needs no oath, no ceremony, no supernatural aid. It is + independent of all the gods. A falsehood goes in partnership with + theology, and depends on the partner for success. + </p> + <p> + To show how little influence for good has been attributed to the oath, it + is only necessary to say that for centuries, in the Christian world, no + person was allowed to testify who had the slightest pecuniary interest in + the result of a suit. + </p> + <p> + The expectation of a farthing in this world was supposed to outweigh the + fear of God's wrath in the next. All the pangs, pains, and penalties of + perdition were considered as nothing when compared with pounds, shillings + and pence in this world. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. You know that in nearly all deliberative bodies—in + parliaments and congresses—an oath or an affirmation is required to + support what is called the Constitution; and that all officers are + required to swear or affirm that they will discharge their duties; do + these oaths and affirmations, in your judgment, do any good? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Men have sought to make nations and institutions immortal + by oaths. Subjects have sworn to obey kings, and kings have sworn to + protect subjects, and yet the subjects have sometimes beheaded a king; and + the king has often plundered the subjects. The oaths enabled them to + deceive each other. Every absurdity in religion, and all tyrannical + institutions, have been patched, buttressed, and reinforced by oaths; and + yet the history of the world shows the utter futility of putting in the + coffin of an oath the political and religious aspirations of the race. + </p> + <p> + Revolutions and reformations care little for "So help me God." Oaths have + riveted shackles and sanctified abuses. People swear to support a + constitution, and they will keep the oath as long as the constitution + supports them. In 1776 the colonists cared nothing for the fact that they + had sworn to support the British crown. All the oaths to defend the + Constitution of the United States did not prevent the Civil War. We have + at last learned that States may be kept together for a little time, by + force; permanently only by mutual interests. We have found that the + Delilah of superstition cannot bind with oaths the secular Samson. + </p> + <p> + Why should a member of Parliament or of Congress swear to maintain the + Constitution? If he is a dishonest man, the oath will have no effect; if + he is an honest patriot, it will have no effect. In both cases it is + equally useless. If a member fails to support the Constitution the + probability is that his constituents will treat him as he does the + Constitution. In this country, after all the members of Congress have + sworn or affirmed to defend the Constitution, each political party charges + the other with a deliberate endeavor to destroy that "sacred instrument." + Possibly the political oath was invented to prevent the free and natural + development of a nation. Kings and nobles and priests wished to retain the + property they had filched and clutched, and for that purpose they + compelled the real owners to swear that they would support and defend the + law under color of which the theft and robbery had been accomplished. + </p> + <p> + So, in the church, creeds have been protected by oaths. Priests and laymen + solemnly swore that they would, under no circumstances, resort to reason; + that they would overcome facts by faith, and strike down demonstrations + with the "sword of the spirit." Professors of the theological seminary at + Andover, Massachusetts, swear to defend certain dogmas and to attack + others. They swear sacredly to keep and guard the ignorance they have. + With them, philosophy leads to perjury, and reason is the road to crime. + While theological professors are not likely to make an intellectual + discovery, still it is unwise, by taking an oath, to render that certain + which is only improbable. + </p> + <p> + If all witnesses sworn to tell the truth, did so, if all members of + Parliament and of Congress, in taking the oath, became intelligent, + patriotic, and honest, I should be in favor of retaining the ceremony; but + we find that men who have taken the same oath advocate opposite ideas, and + entertain different opinions, as to the meaning of constitutions and laws. + The oath adds nothing to their intelligence; does not even tend to + increase their patriotism, and certainly does not make the dishonest + honest. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are not persons allowed to testify in the United States + whether they believe in future rewards and punishments or not? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In this country, in most of the States, witnesses are + allowed to testify whether they believe in perdition and paradise or not. + In some States they are allowed to testify even if they deny the existence + of God. We have found that religious belief does not compel people to tell + the truth, and than an utter denial of every Christian creed does not even + tend to make them dishonest. You see, a religious belief does not affect + the senses. Justice should not shut any door that leads to truth. No one + will pretend that, because you do not believe in hell, your sight is + impaired, or your hearing dulled, or your memory rendered less retentive. + A witness in a court is called upon to tell what he has seen, what he has + heard, what he remembers, not what he believes about gods and devils and + hells and heavens. A witness substantiates not a faith, but a fact. In + order to ascertain whether a witness will tell the truth, you might with + equal propriety examine him as to his ideas about music, painting or + architecture, as theology. A man may have no ear for music, and yet + remember what he hears. He may care nothing about painting, and yet is + able to tell what he sees. So he may deny every creed, and yet be able to + tell the facts as he remembers them. + </p> + <p> + Thomas Jefferson was wise enough so to frame the Constitution of Virginia + that no person could be deprived of any civil right on account of his + religious or irreligious belief. Through the influence of men like Paine, + Franklin and Jefferson, it was provided in the Federal Constitution that + officers elected under its authority could swear or affirm. This was the + natural result of the separation of church and state. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I see that your Presidents and Governors issue their + proclamations calling on the people to assemble in their churches and + offer thanks to God. How does this happen in a Government where church and + state are not united? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Jefferson, when President, refused to issue what is known + as the "Thanksgiving Proclamation," on the ground that the Federal + Government had no right to interfere in religious matters; that the people + owed no religious duties to the Government; that the Government derived + its powers, not from priests or gods, but from the people, and was + responsible alone to the source of its power. The truth is, the framers of + our Constitution intended that the Government should be secular in the + broadest and best sense; and yet there are thousands and thousands of + religious people in this country who are greatly scandalized because there + is no recognition of God in the Federal Constitution; and for several + years a great many ministers have been endeavoring to have the + Constitution amended so as to recognize the existence of God and the + divinity of Christ. A man by the name of Pollock was once superintendent + of the mint of Philadelphia. He was almost insane about having God in the + Constitution. Failing in that, he got the inscription on our money, "In + God we Trust." As our silver dollar is now, in fact, worth only + eighty-five cents, it is claimed that the inscription means that we trust + in God for the other fifteen cents. + </p> + <p> + There is a constant effort on the part of many Christians to have their + religion in some way recognized by law. Proclamations are now issued + calling upon the people to give thanks, and directing attention to the + fact that, while God has scourged or neglected other nations, he has been + remarkably attentive to the wants and wishes of the United States. + Governors of States issue these documents written in a tone of pious + insincerity. The year may or may not have been prosperous, yet the degree + of thankfulness called for is always precisely the same. + </p> + <p> + A few years ago the Governor of Iowa issued an exceedingly rhetorical + proclamation, in which the people were requested to thank God for the + unparalleled blessings he had showered upon them. A private citizen, + fearing that the Lord might be misled by official correspondence, issued + his proclamation, in which he recounted with great particularity the + hardships of the preceding year. He insisted that the weather had been of + the poorest quality; that the spring came late, and the frost early; that + the people were in debt; that the farms were mortgaged; that the merchants + were bankrupt; and that everything was in the worst possible condition. He + concluded by sincerely hoping that the Lord would pay no attention to the + proclamation of the Governor, but would, if he had any doubt on the + subject, come down and examine the State for himself. + </p> + <p> + These proclamations have always appeared to me absurdly egotistical. Why + should God treat us any better than he does the rest of his children? Why + should he send pestilence and famine to China, and health and plenty to + us? Why give us corn, and Egypt cholera? All these proclamations grow out + of egotism and selfishness, of ignorance and superstition, and are based + upon the idea that God is a capricious monster; that he loves flattery; + that he can be coaxed and cajoled. + </p> + <p> + The conclusion of the whole matter with me is this: For truth in courts we + must depend upon the trained intelligence of judges, the right of + cross-examination, the honesty and common sense of jurors, and upon an + enlightened public opinion. As for members of Congress, we will trust to + the wisdom and patriotism, not only of the members, but of their + constituents. In religion we will give to all the luxury of absolute + liberty. + </p> + <p> + The alchemist did not succeed in finding any stone the touch of which + transmuted baser things to gold; and priests have not invented yet an oath + with power to force from falsehood's desperate lips the pearl of truth. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Secular Review</i>, London, England, 1884. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0037" id="link0037"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + WENDELL PHILLIPS, FITZ JOHN PORTER AND BISMARCK. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are you seeking to quit public lecturing on religious + questions? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. As long as I live I expect now and then to say my say + against the religious bigotry and cruelty of the world. As long as the + smallest coal is red in hell I am going to keep on. I never had the + slightest idea of retiring. I expect the church to do the retiring. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of Wendell Phillips as an orator? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. He was a very great orator—one of the greatest that + the world has produced. He rendered immense service in the cause of + freedom. He was in the old days the thunderbolt that pierced the shield of + the Constitution. One of the bravest soldiers that ever fought for human + rights was Wendell Phillips. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the action of Congress on Fitz John + Porter? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think Congress did right. I think they should have taken + this action long before. There was a question of his guilt, and he should + have been given the benefit of a doubt. They say he could have defeated + Longstreet. There are some people, you know, who would have it that an + army could be whipped by a good general with six mules and a blunderbuss. + But we do not regard those people. They know no more about it than a lady + who talked to me about Porter's case. She argued the question of Porter's + guilt for half an hour. I showed her where she was all wrong. When she + found she was beaten she took refuge with "Oh, well, anyhow he had no + genius." Well, if every man is to be shot who has no genius, I want to go + into the coffin business. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What, in your judgment, is necessary to be done to insure + Republican success this fall? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It is only necessary for the Republican party to stand by + its principles. We must be in favor of protecting American labor not only, + but of protecting American capital, and we must be in favor of civil + rights, and must advocate the doctrine that the Federal Government must + protect all citizens. I am in favor of a tariff, not simply to raise a + revenue—that I regard as incidental. The Democrats regard protection + as incidental. The two principles should be, protection to American + industry and protection to American citizens. So that, after all, there is + but one issue—protection. As a matter of fact, that is all a + government is for—to protect. The Republican party is stronger + to-day than it was four years ago. The Republican party stands for the + progressive ideas of the American people. It has been said that the + administration will control the Southern delegates. I do not believe it. + This administration has not been friendly to the Southern Republicans, and + my opinion is there will be as much division in the Southern as in the + Northern States. I believe Blaine will be a candidate, and I do not + believe the Prohibitionists will put a ticket in the field, because they + have no hope of success. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think generally of the revival of the bloody + shirt? Do you think the investigations of the Republicans of the Danville + and Copiah massacres will benefit them? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Well, I am in favor of the revival of that question just as + often as a citizen of the Republic is murdered on account of his politics. + If the South is sick of that question, let it stop persecuting men because + they are Republicans. I do not believe, however, in simply investigating + the question and then stopping after the guilty ones are found. I believe + in indicting them, trying them, and convicting them. If the Government can + do nothing except investigate, we might as well stop, and admit that we + have no government. Thousands of people think that it is almost vulgar to + take the part of the poor colored people in the South. What part should + you take if not that of the weak? The strong do not need you. And I can + tell the Southern people now, that as long as they persecute for opinion's + sake they will never touch the reins of political power in this country. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How do you regard the action of Bismarck in returning the + Lasker resolutions? Was it the result of his hatred of the Jews? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Bismarck opposed a bill to do away with the disabilities of + the Jews on the ground that Prussia is a Christian nation, founded for the + purpose of spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ. I presume that it was his + hatred of the Jews that caused him to return the resolutions. Bismarck + should have lived several centuries ago. He belongs to the Dark Ages. He + is a believer in the sword and the bayonet—in brute force. He was + loved by Germany simply because he humiliated France. Germany gave her + liberty for revenge. It is only necessary to compare Bismarck with + Gambetta to see what a failure he really is. Germany was victorious and + took from France the earnings of centuries; and yet Germany is to-day the + least prosperous nation in Europe. France was prostrate, trampled into the + earth, robbed, and yet, guided by Gambetta, is to-day the most prosperous + nation in Europe. This shows the difference between brute force and brain. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Times</i>, Chicago, Illinois, February 21, 1884. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0038" id="link0038"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + GENERAL SUBJECTS. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. Do you enjoy lecturing? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course I enjoy lecturing. It is a great pleasure to + drive the fiend of fear out of the hearts of men women and children. It is + a positive joy to put out the fires of hell. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Where do you meet with the bitterest opposition? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I meet with the bitterest opposition where the people are + the most ignorant, where there is the least thought, where there are the + fewest books. The old theology is becoming laughable. Very few ministers + have the impudence to preach in the old way. They give new meanings to old + words. They subscribe to the same creed, but preach exactly the other way. + The clergy are ashamed to admit that they are orthodox, and they ought to + be. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do liberal books, such as the works of Paine and Infidel + scientists sell well? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, they are about the only books on serious subjects that + do sell well. The works of Darwin, Buckle, Draper, Haeckel, Tyndall, + Humboldt and hundreds of others, are read by intelligent people the world + over. Works of a religious character die on the shelves. The people want + facts. They want to know about the world, about all forms of life. They + want the mysteries of every day solved. They want honest thoughts about + sensible questions. They are tired of the follies of faith and the + falsehoods of superstition. They want a heaven here. In a few years the + old theological books will be sold to make paper on which to print the + discoveries of science. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. In what section of the country do you find the most + liberality? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I find great freedom of thought in Boston, New York, + Chicago, San Francisco, in fact, all over what we call the North. The West + of course is liberal. The truth is that all the intelligent part of the + country is liberal. The railroad, the telegraph, the daily paper, electric + light, the telephone, and freedom of thought belong together. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is it true that you were once threatened with a criminal + prosecution for libel on religion? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, in Delaware. Chief Justice Comegys instructed the + grand jury to indict me for blasphemy. I have taken by revenge on the + State by leaving it in ignorance. Delaware is several centuries behind the + times. It is as bigoted as it is small. Compare Kansas City with + Wilmington and you will see the difference between liberalism and + orthodoxy. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. This is Washington's birthday. What do you think of + General Washington? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I suppose that Washington was what was called religious. He + was not very strict in his conduct. He tried to have church and state + united in Virginia and was defeated by Jefferson. It should make no + difference with us whether Washington was religious or not. Jefferson was + by far the greater man. In intellect there was no comparison between + Washington and Franklin. I do not prove the correctness of my ideas by + names of dead people. I depend upon reason instead of gravestones. One + fact is worth a cemetery full of distinguished corpses. We ask not for the + belief of somebody, but for evidence, for facts. The church is a beggar at + the door of respectability. The moment a man becomes famous, the church + asks him for a certificate that the Bible is true. It passes its hat + before generals and presidents, and kings while they are alive. It says + nothing about thinkers and real philosophers while they live, except to + slander them, but the moment they are dead it seeks among their words for + a crumb of comfort. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Will Liberalism ever organize in America? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I hope not. Organization means creed, and creed means + petrifaction and tyranny. I believe in individuality. I will not join any + society except an anti-society society. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you consider the religion of Bhagavat Purana of the + East as good as the Christian? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It is far more poetic. It has greater variety and shows + vastly more thought. Like the Hebrew, it is poisoned with superstition, + but it has more beauty. Nothing can be more barren than the theology of + the Jews and Christians. One lonely God, a heaven filled with thoughtless + angels, a hell with unfortunate souls. Nothing can be more desolate. The + Greek mythology is infinitely better. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think that the marriage institution is held in + less respect by Infidels than by Christians? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. No; there was never a time when marriage was more believed + in than now. Never were wives treated better and loved more; never were + children happier than now. It is the ambition of the average American to + have a good and happy home. The fireside was never more popular than now. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of Beecher? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. He is a great man, but the habit of his mind and the bent + of his early education oppose his heart. He is growing and has been + growing every day for many years. He has given up the idea of eternal + punishment, and that of necessity destroys it all. The Christian religion + is founded upon hell. When the foundation crumbles the fabric falls. + Beecher was to have answered my article in the <i>North American Review</i>, + but when it appeared and he saw it, he agreed with so much of it that he + concluded that an answer would be useless. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Times</i>, Kansas City, Missouri, February 23, 1884. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0039" id="link0039"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + REPLY TO KANSAS CITY CLERGY. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. Will you take any notice of Mr. Magrath's challenge? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not think it worth while to discuss with Mr. Magrath. + I do not say this in disparagement of his ability, as I do not know the + gentleman. He may be one of the greatest of men. I think, however, that + Mr. Magrath might better answer what I have already said. If he succeeds + in that, then I will meet him in public discussion. Of course he is an + eminent theologian or he would not think of discussing these questions + with anybody. I have never heard of him, but for all that he may be the + most intelligent of men. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How have the recently expressed opinions of our local + clergy impressed you? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I suppose you refer to the preachers who have given their + opinion of me. In the first place I am obliged to them for acting as my + agents. I think Mr. Hogan has been imposed upon. Tacitus is a poor witness—about + like Josephus. I say again that we have not a word about Christ written by + any human being who lived in the time of Christ—not a solitary word, + and Mr. Hogan ought to know it. + </p> + <p> + The Rev. Mr. Matthews is mistaken. If the Bible proves anything, it proves + that the world was made in six days and that Adam and Eve were built on + Saturday. The Bible gives the age of Adam when he died, and then gives the + ages of others down to the flood, and then from that time at least to the + return from the captivity. If the genealogy of the Bible is true it is + about six thousand years since Adam was made, and the world is only five + days older than Adam. It is nonsense to say that the days were long + periods of time. If that is so, away goes the idea of Sunday. The only + reason for keeping Sunday given in the Bible is that God made the world in + six days and rested on the seventh. Mr. Mathews is not candid. He knows + that he cannot answer the arguments I have urged against the Bible. He + knows that the ancient Jews were barbarians, and that the Old Testament is + a barbarous book. He knows that it upholds slavery and polygamy, and he + probably feels ashamed of what he is compelled to preach. + </p> + <p> + Mr. Jardine takes a very cheerful view of the subject. He expects the + light to dawn on the unbelievers. He speaks as though he were the superior + of all Infidels. He claims to be a student of the evidences of + Christianity. There are no evidences, consequently Mr. Jardine is a + student of nothing. It is amazing how dignified some people can get on a + small capital. + </p> + <p> + Mr. Haley has sense enough to tell the ministers not to attempt to answer + me. That is good advice. The ministers had better keep still. It is the + safer way. If they try to answer what I say, the "sheep" will see how + foolish the "shepherds" are. The best way is for them to say, "that has + been answered." + </p> + <p> + Mr. Wells agrees with Mr. Haley. He, too, thinks that silence is the best + weapon. I agree with him. Let the clergy keep still; that is the best way. + It is better to say nothing than to talk absurdity. I am delighted to + think that at last the ministers have concluded that they had better not + answer Infidels. + </p> + <p> + Mr. Woods is fearful only for the young. He is afraid that I will hurt the + children. He thinks that the mother ought to stoop over the cradle and in + the ears of the babe shout, Hell! So he thinks in all probability that the + same word ought to be repeated at the grave as a consolation to mourners. + </p> + <p> + I am glad that Mr. Mann thinks that I am doing neither good nor harm. This + gives me great hope. If I do no harm, certainly I ought not to be + eternally damned. It is very consoling to have an orthodox minister + solemnly assert that I am doing no harm. I wish I could say as much for + him. + </p> + <p> + The truth is, all these ministers have kept back their real thoughts. They + do not tell their doubts—they know that orthodoxy is doomed —they + know that the old doctrine excites laughter and scorn. They know that the + fires of hell are dying out; that the Bible is ceasing to be an authority; + and that the pulpit is growing feebler and feebler every day. Poor + parsons! + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Would the Catholicism of General Sherman's family affect + his chances for the presidency? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not think the religion of the family should have any + weight one way or the other. It would make no difference with me; although + I hate Catholicism with all my heart, I do not hate Catholics. Some people + might be so prejudiced that they would not vote for a man whose wife + belongs to the Catholic Church; but such people are too narrow to be + consulted. General Sherman says that he wants no office. In that he shows + his good sense. He is a great man and a great soldier. He has won laurels + enough for one brow. He has the respect and admiration of the nation, and + does not need the presidency to finish his career. He wishes to enjoy the + honors he has won and the rest he deserves. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of Matthew Arnold? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. He is a man of talent, well educated, a little fussy, + somewhat sentimental, but he is not a genius. He is not creative. He is a + critic—not an originator. He will not compare with Emerson. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Journal</i>, Kansas City, Missouri, February 23, 1884. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0040" id="link0040"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + SWEARING AND AFFIRMING. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is the difference in the parliamentary oath of this + country which saves us from such a squabble as they have had in England + over the Bradlaugh case? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Our Constitution provides that a member of Congress may + swear or affirm. The consequence is that we can have no such controversy + as they have had in England. The framers of our Constitution wished + forever to divorce church and state. They knew that it made no possible + difference whether a man swore or affirmed, or whether he swore and + affirmed to support the Constitution. All the Federal officers who went + into the Rebellion had sworn or affirmed to support the Constitution. All + that did no good. The entire oath business is a mistake. I think it would + be a thousand times better to abolish all oaths in courts of justice. The + oath allows a rascal to put on the garments of solemnity, the mask of + piety, while he tells a lie. In other words, the oath allows the villain + to give falsehood the appearance of truth. I think it would be far better + to let each witness tell his story and leave his evidence to the + intelligence of the jury and judge. The trouble about an oath is that its + tendency is to put all witnesses on an equality; the jury says, "Why, he + swore to it." Now, if the oath were abolished, the jury would judge all + testimony according to the witness, and then the evidence of one man of + good reputation would outweigh the lies of thousands of nobodies. + </p> + <p> + It was at one time believed that there was something miraculous in the + oath, that it was a kind of thumbscrew that would torture the truth out of + a rascal, and at one time they believed that if a man swore falsely he + might be struck by lightning or paralyzed. But so many people have sworn + to lies without having their health impaired that the old superstition has + very little weight with the average witness. I think it would be far + better to let every man tell his story; let him be cross-examined, let the + jury find out as much as they can of his character, of his standing among + his neighbors—then weigh his testimony in the scale of reason. The + oath is born of superstition, and everything born of superstition is bad. + The oath gives the lie currency; it gives it for the moment the ring of + true metal, and the ordinary average juror is imposed upon and justice in + many instances defeated. Nothing can be more absurd than the swearing of a + man to support the Constitution. Let him do what he likes. If he does not + support the Constitution, the probability is that his constituents will + refuse to support him. Every man who swears to support the Constitution + swears to support it as he understands it, and no two understand it + exactly alike. Now, if the oath brightened a man's intellect or added to + his information or increased his patriotism or gave him a little more + honesty, it would be a good thing—but it doesn't. And as a + consequence it is a very useless and absurd proceeding. Nothing amuses me + more in a court than to see one calf kissing the tanned skin of another. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Courier</i>, Buffalo, New York, May 19, 1884. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0041" id="link0041"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + REPLY TO A BUFFALO CRITIC. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What have you to say in reply to the letter in to- day's + <i>Times</i> signed R. H. S.? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I find that I am accused of "four flagrant wrongs," and + while I am not as yet suffering from the qualms of conscience, nor do I + feel called upon to confess and be forgiven, yet I have something to say + in self-defence. + </p> + <p> + As to the first objection made by your correspondent, namely, that my + doctrine deprives people of the hope that after this life is ended they + will meet their fathers, mothers, sisters and brothers, long since passed + away, in the land beyond the grave, and there enjoy their company forever, + I have this to say: If Christianity is true we are not quite certain of + meeting our relatives and friends where we can enjoy their company + forever. If Christianity is true most of our friends will be in hell. The + ones I love best and whose memory I cherish will certainly be among the + lost. The trouble about Christianity is that it is infinitely selfish. + Each man thinks that if he can save his own little, shriveled, microscopic + soul, that is enough. No matter what becomes of the rest. Christianity has + no consolation for a generous man. I do not wish to go to heaven if the + ones who have given me joy are to be lost. I would much rather go with + them. The only thing that makes life endurable in this world is human + love, and yet, according to Christianity, that is the very thing we are + not to have in the other world. We are to be so taken up with Jesus and + the angels, that we shall care nothing about our brothers and sisters that + have been damned. We shall be so carried away with the music of the harp + that we shall not even hear the wail of father or mother. Such a religion + is a disgrace to human nature. + </p> + <p> + As to the second objection,—that society cannot be held together in + peace and good order without hell and a belief in eternal torment, I would + ask why an infinitely wise and good God should make people of so poor and + mean a character that society cannot be held together without scaring + them. Is it possible that God has so made the world that the threat of + eternal punishment is necessary for the preservation of society? + </p> + <p> + The writer of the letter also says that it is necessary to believe that if + a man commits murder here he is destined to be punished in hell for the + offence. This is Christianity. Yet nearly every murderer goes directly + from the gallows to God. Nearly every murderer takes it upon himself to + lecture the assembled multitude who have gathered to see him hanged, and + invite them to meet him in heaven. When the rope is about his neck he + feels the wings growing. That is the trouble with the Christian doctrine. + Every murderer is told he may repent and go to heaven, and have the + happiness of seeing his victim in hell. Should heaven at any time become + dull, the vein of pleasure can be re-thrilled by the sight of his victim + wriggling on the gridiron of God's justice. Really, Christianity leads men + to sin on credit. It sells rascality on time and tells all the devils they + can have the benefit of the gospel bankrupt act. + </p> + <p> + The next point in the letter is that I do not preach for the benefit of + mankind, but for the money which is the price of blood. Of course it makes + no difference whether I preach for money or not. That is to say, it makes + no difference to the preached. The arguments I advance are either good or + bad. If they are bad they can easily be answered by argument. If they are + not they cannot be answered by personalities or by ascribing to me selfish + motives. It is not a personal matter. It is a matter of logic, of sense— + not a matter of slander, vituperation or hatred. The writer of the letter, + R. H. S., may be an exceedingly good person, yet that will add no weight + to his or her argument. He or she may be a very bad person, but that would + not weaken the logic of the letter, if it had any logic to begin with. It + is not for me to say what my motives are in what I do or say; it must be + left to the judgment of mankind. I presume I am about as bad as most + folks, and as good as some, but my goodness or badness has nothing to do + with the question. I may have committed every crime in the world, yet that + does not make the story of the flood reasonable, nor does it even tend to + show that the three gentlemen in the furnace were not scorched. I may be + the best man in the world, yet that does not go to prove that Jonah was + swallowed by the whale. Let me say right here that if there is another + world I believe that every soul who finds the way to that shore will have + an everlasting opportunity to do right—of reforming. My objection to + Christianity is that it is infinitely cruel, infinitely selfish, and I + might add infinitely absurd. I deprive no one of any hope unless you call + the expectation of eternal pain a hope. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Have you read the Rev. Father Lambert's "Notes on + Ingersoll," and if so, what have you to say of them or in reply to them? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have read a few pages or paragraphs of that pamphlet, and + do not feel called upon to say anything. Mr. Lambert has the same right to + publish his ideas that I have, and the readers must judge. People who + believe his way will probably think that he has succeeded in answering me. + After all, he must leave the public to decide. I have no anxiety about the + decision. Day by day the people are advancing, and in a little while the + sacred superstitions of to-day will be cast aside with the foolish myths + and fables of the pagan world. + </p> + <p> + As a matter of fact there can be no argument in favor of the supernatural. + Suppose you should ask if I had read the work of that gentleman who says + that twice two are five. I should answer you that no gentleman can prove + that twice two are five; and yet this is exactly as easy as to prove the + existence of the supernatural. There are no arguments in favor of the + supernatural. There are theories and fears and mistakes and prejudices and + guesses, but no arguments—plenty of faith, but no facts; plenty of + divine revelation, but no demonstration. The supernatural, in my judgment, + is a mistake. I believe in the natural. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Times</i>, Buffalo, New York, May 19, 1884. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0042" id="link0042"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + BLASPHEMY.* + </h2> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + [* "If Robert G. Ingersoll indulges in blasphemy to-night in + his lecture, as he has in other places and in this city + before, he will be arrested before he leaves the city." So + spoke Rev. Irwin H. Torrence, General Secretary of the + Pennsylvania Bible Society, yesterday afternoon to a <i>Press</i> + reporter. "We have consulted counsel; the law is with us, + and Ingersoll has but to do what he has done before, to find + himself in a cell. Here is the act of March 31, 1860: + + "'If any person shall willfully, premeditatedly and + despitefully blaspheme or speak loosely and profanely of + Almighty God, Christ Jesus, the Holy Spirit, or the + Scriptures of Truth, such person, on conviction thereof, + shall be sentenced to pay a fine not exceeding one hundred + dollars, and undergo an imprisonment not exceeding three + months, or either, at the discretion of the court.'" + + Last evening Colonel Ingersoll sat in the dining room at + Guy's Hotel, just in from New York City. When told of the + plans of Mr. Torrence and his friends, he laughed and said:] +</pre> + <p> + I did not suppose that anybody was idiotic enough to want me arrested for + blasphemy. It seems to me that an infinite Being can take care of himself + without the aid of any agent of a Bible society. Perhaps it is wrong for + me to be here while the Methodist Conference is in session. Of course no + one who differs from the Methodist ministers should ever visit + Philadelphia while they are here. I most humbly hope to be forgiven. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the law of 1860? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It is exceedingly foolish. Surely, there is no need for the + Legislature of Pennsylvania to protect an infinite God, and why should the + Bible be protected by law? The most ignorant priest can hold Darwin up to + orthodox scorn. This talk of the Rev. Mr. Torrence shows that my lectures + are needed; that religious people do not know what real liberty is. I + presume that the law of 1860 is an old one re-enacted. It is a survival of + ancient ignorance and bigotry, and no one in the Legislature thought it + worth while to fight it. It is the same as the law against swearing, both + are dead letters and amount to nothing. They are not enforced and should + not be. Public opinion will regulate such matters. If all who take the + name of God in vain were imprisoned there would not be room in the jails + to hold the ministers. They speak of God in the most flippant and + snap-your-fingers way that can be conceived of. They speak to him as + though he were an intimate chum, and metaphorically slap him on the back + in the most familiar way possible. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Have you ever had any similar experiences before? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Oh, yes—threats have been made, but I never was + arrested. When Mr. Torrence gets cool he will see that he has made a + mistake. People in Philadelphia have been in the habit of calling the + citizens of Boston bigots—but there is more real freedom of thought + and expression in Boston than in almost any other city of the world. I + think that as I am to suffer in hell forever, Mr. Torrence ought to be + satisfied and let me have a good time here. He can amuse himself through + all eternity by seeing me in hell, and that ought to be enough to satisfy, + not only an agent, but the whole Bible society. I never expected any + trouble in this State, and most sincerely hope that Mr. Torrence will not + trouble me and make the city a laughing stock. + </p> + <p> + Philadelphia has no time to waste in such foolish things. Let the Bible + take its chances with other books. Let everybody feel that he has the + right freely to express his opinions, provided he is decent and kind about + it. Certainly the Christians now ought to treat Infidels as well as Penn + did Indians. + </p> + <p> + Nothing could be more perfectly idiotic than in this day and generation to + prosecute any man for giving his conclusions upon any religious subject. + Mr. Torrence would have had Huxley and Haeckel and Tyndall arrested; would + have had Humboldt and John Stuart Mill and Harriet Martineau and George + Eliot locked up in the city jail. Mr. Torrence is a fossil from the old + red sandstone of a mistake. Let him rest. To hear these people talk you + would suppose that God is some petty king, some Liliputian prince, who was + about to be dethroned, and who was nearly wild for recruits. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. But what would you do if they should make an attempt to + arrest you? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Nothing, except to defend myself in court. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Philadelphia Press</i>, May 24, 1884. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0043" id="link0043"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + POLITICS AND BRITISH COLUMBIA. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I understand that there was some trouble in connection + with your lecture in Victoria, B. C. What are the facts? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The published accounts, as circulated by the Associated + Press, were greatly exaggerated. The affair was simply this: The + authorities endeavored to prevent the lecture. They refused the license, + on the ground that the theatre was unsafe, although it was on the ground + floor, had many exits and entrances, not counting the windows. The theatre + was changed to meet the objections of the fire commissioner, and the + authorities expressed their satisfaction and issued the license. Afterward + further objection was raised, and on the night of the lecture, when the + building was about two- thirds full, the police appeared and said that the + lecture would not be allowed to be delivered, because the house was + unsafe. After a good deal of talk, the policeman in authority said that + there should be another door, whereupon my friends, in a few minutes, made + another door with an ax and a saw, the crowd was admitted and the lecture + was delivered. The audience was well-behaved, intelligent and + appreciative. Beyond some talking in the hall, and the natural indignation + of those who had purchased tickets and were refused admittance, there was + no disturbance. I understand that those who opposed the lecture are now + heartily ashamed of the course pursued. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are you going to take any part in the campaign? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It is not my intention to make any political speeches. I + have made a good many in the past, and, in my judgment, have done my part. + I have no other interest in politics than every citizen should have. I + want that party to triumph which, in my judgment, represents the best + interests of the country. I have no doubt about the issue of the election. + I believe that Mr. Blaine will be the next President. But there are plenty + of talkers, and I really think that I have earned a vacation. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think Cleveland's chances are in New York? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. At this distance it is hard to say. The recent action of + Tammany complicates matters somewhat. But my opinion is that Blaine will + carry the State. I had a letter yesterday from that State, giving the + opinion of a gentleman well informed, that Blaine would carry New York by + no less than fifty thousand majority. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What figure will Butler cut in the campaign? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I hardly think that Butler will have many followers on the + 4th of November. His forces will gradually go to one side or the other. It + is only when some great principle is at stake that thousands of men are + willing to vote with a known minority. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. But what about the Prohibitionists? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. They have a very large following. They are fighting for + something they believe to be of almost infinite consequence, and I can + readily understand how a Prohibitionist is willing to be in the minority. + It may be well enough for me to say here, that my course politically is + not determined by my likes or dislikes of individuals. I want to be + governed by principles, not persons. If I really thought that in this + campaign a real principle was at stake, I should take part. The only great + question now is protection, and I am satisfied that it is in no possible + danger. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Not even in the case of a Democratic victory? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Not even in the event of a Democratic victory. No State in + the Union is for free trade. Every free trader has an exception. These + exceptions combined, control the tariff legislation of this country, and + if the Democrats were in power to-day, with the control of the House and + Senate and Executive, the exceptions would combine and protect protection. + As long as the Federal Government collects taxes or revenue on imports, + just so long these revenues will be arranged to protect home manufactures. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. You said that if there were a great principle at stake, + you would take part in the campaign. You think, then, that there is no + great principle involved? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. If it were a matter of personal liberty, I should take + part. If the Republican party had stood by the Civil Rights Bill, I should + have taken part in the present campaign. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Still, I suppose we can count on you as a Republican? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Certainly, I am a Republican. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Evening Post</i>, San Francisco, California, September 16, 1884. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0044" id="link0044"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + INGERSOLL CATECHISED. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. Does Christianity advance or retard civilization? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. If by Christianity you mean the orthodox church, then I + unhesitatingly answer that it does retard civilization, always has + retarded it, and always will. I can imagine no man who can be benefitted + by being made a Catholic or a Presbyterian or a Baptist or a Methodist—or, + in other words, by being made an orthodox Christian. But by Christianity I + do not mean morality, kindness, forgiveness, justice. Those virtues are + not distinctively Christian. They are claimed by Mohammedans and + Buddhists, by Infidels and Atheists—and practiced by some of all + classes. Christianity consists of the miraculous, the marvelous, and the + impossible. + </p> + <p> + The one thing that I most seriously object to in Christianity is the + doctrine of eternal punishment. That doctrine subverts every idea of + justice. It teaches the infinite absurdity that a finite offence can be + justly visited by eternal punishment. Another serious objection I have is, + that Christianity endeavors to destroy intellectual liberty. Nothing is + better calculated to retard civilization than to subvert the idea of + justice. Nothing is better calculated to retain barbarism than to deny to + every human being the right to think. Justice and Liberty are the two + wings that bear man forward. The church, for a thousand years, did all + within its power to prevent the expression of honest thought; and when the + church had power, there was in this world no civilization. We have + advanced just in the proportion that Christianity has lost power. Those + nations in which the church is still powerful are still almost savage—Portugal, + Spain, and many others I might name. Probably no country is more + completely under the control of the religious idea than Russia. The Czar + is the direct representative of God. He is the head of the church, as well + as of the state. In Russia every mouth is a bastille and every tongue a + convict. This Russian pope, this representative of God, has on earth his + hell (Siberia), and he imitates the orthodox God to the extent of his + health and strength. + </p> + <p> + Everywhere man advances as the church loses power. In my judgment, Ireland + can never succeed until it ceases to be Catholic; and there can be no + successful uprising while the confessional exists. At one time in New + England the church had complete power. There was then no religious + liberty. And so we might make a tour of the world, and find that + superstition always has been, is, and forever will be, inconsistent with + human advancement. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do not the evidences of design in the universe prove a + Creator? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. If there were any evidences of design in the universe, + certainly they would tend to prove a designer, but they would not prove a + Creator. Design does not prove creation. A man makes a machine. That does + not prove that he made the material out of which the machine is + constructed. You find the planets arranged in accordance with what you + call a plan. That does not prove that they were created. It may prove that + they are governed, but it certainly does not prove that they were created. + Is it consistent to say that a design cannot exist without a designer, but + that a designer can? Does not a designer need a design as much as a design + needs a designer? Does not a Creator need a Creator as much as the thing + we think has been created? In other words, is not this simply a circle of + human ignorance? Why not say that the universe has existed from eternity, + as well as to say that a Creator has existed from eternity? And do you not + thus avoid at least one absurdity by saying that the universe has existed + from eternity, instead of saying that it was created by a Creator who + existed from eternity? Because if your Creator existed from eternity, and + created the universe, there was a time when he commenced; and back of + that, according to Shelley, is "an eternity of idleness." + </p> + <p> + Some people say that God existed from eternity, and has created eternity. + It is impossible to conceive of an act co-equal with eternity. If you say + that God has existed forever, and has always acted, then you make the + universe eternal, and you make the universe as old as God; and if the + universe be as old as God, he certainly did not create it. + </p> + <p> + These questions of origin and destiny—of infinite gods—are + beyond the powers of the human mind. They cannot be solved. We might as + well try to travel fast enough to get beyond the horizon. It is like a man + trying to run away from his girdle. Consequently, I believe in turning our + attention to things of importance—to questions that may by some + possibility be solved. It is of no importance to me whether God exists or + not. I exist, and it is important to me to be happy while I exist. + Therefore I had better turn my attention to finding out the secret of + happiness, instead of trying to ascertain the secret of the universe. + </p> + <p> + I say with regard to God, I do not know; and therefore I am accused of + being arrogant and egotistic. Religious papers say that I do know, because + Webster told me. They use Webster as a witness to prove the divinity of + Christ. They say that Webster was on the God side, and therefore I ought + to be. I can hardly afford to take Webster's ideas of another world, when + his ideas about this were so bad. When bloodhounds were pursuing a woman + through the tangled swamps of the South—she hungry for liberty—Webster + took the side of the bloodhounds. Such a man is no authority for me. Bacon + denied the Copernican system of astronomy; he is an unsafe guide. Wesley + believed in witches; I cannot follow him. No man should quote a name + instead of an argument; no man should bring forward a person instead of a + principle, unless he is willing to accept all the ideas of that person. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is not a pleasant illusion preferable to a dreary truth—a + future life being in question? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think it is. I think that a pleasing illusion is better + then a terrible truth, so far as its immediate results are concerned. I + would rather think the one I love living, than to think her dead. I would + rather think that I had a large balance in bank than that my account was + overdrawn. I would rather think I was healthy than to know that I had a + cancer. But if we have an illusion, let us have it pleasing. The orthodox + illusion is the worst that can possibly be conceived. Take hell out of + that illusion, take eternal pain away from that dream, and say that the + whole world is to be happy forever—then you might have an excuse for + calling it a pleasant illusion; but it is, in fact, a nightmare —a + perpetual horror—a cross, on which the happiness of man has been + crucified. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are not religion and morals inseparable? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Religion and morality have nothing in common, and yet there + is no religion except the practice of morality. But what you call religion + is simply superstition. Religion as it is now taught teaches our duties + toward God—our obligations to the Infinite, and the results of a + failure to discharge those obligations. I believe that we are under no + obligations to the Infinite; that we cannot be. All our obligations are to + each other, and to sentient beings. "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and + thou shalt be saved," has nothing to do with morality. "Do unto other as + ye would that others should do unto you" has nothing to do with believing + in the Lord Jesus Christ. Baptism has nothing to do with morality. "Pay + your honest debts." That has nothing to do with baptism. What is called + religion is simple superstition, with which morality has nothing to do. + </p> + <p> + The churches do not prevent people from committing natural offences, but + restrain them from committing artificial ones. As for instance, the + Catholic Church can prevent one of its members from eating meat on Friday, + but not from whipping his wife. The Episcopal Church can prevent dancing, + it may be, in Lent, but not slander. The Presbyterian can keep a man from + working on Sunday, but not from practicing deceit on Monday. And so I + might go through the churches. They lay the greater stress upon the + artificial offences. Those countries that are the most religious are the + most immoral. When the world was under the control of the Catholic Church, + it reached the very pit of immorality, and nations have advanced in morals + just in proportion that they have lost Christianity. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. It is frequently asserted that there is nothing new in + your objections against Christianity. What is your reply to such + assertions? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course, the editors of religious papers will say this; + Christians will say this. In my opinion, an argument is new until it has + been answered. An argument is absolutely fresh, and has upon its leaves + the dew of morning, until it has been refuted. All men have experienced, + it may be, in some degree, what we call love. Millions of men have written + about it. The subject is of course old. It is only the presentation that + can be new. Thousands of men have attacked superstition. The subject is + old, but the manner in which the facts are handled, the arguments grouped—these + may be forever new. Millions of men have preached Christianity. Certainly + there is nothing new in the original ideas. Nothing can be new except the + presentation, the grouping. The ideas may be old, but they may be clothed + in new garments of passion; they may be given additional human interest. A + man takes a fact, or an old subject, as a sculptor takes a rock; the rock + is not new. Of this rock he makes a statue; the statue is new. And yet + some orthodox man might say there is nothing new about that statue: "I + know the man that dug the rock; I know the owner of the quarry." Substance + is eternal; forms are new. So in the human mind certain ideas, or in the + human heart certain passions, are forever old; but genius forever gives + them new forms, new meanings; and this is the perpetual originality of + genius. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you consider that churches are injurious to the + community? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In the exact proportion that churches teach falsehood; in + the exact proportion that they destroy liberty of thought, the free action + of the human mind; in the exact proportion that they teach the doctrine of + eternal pain, and convince people of its truth—they are injurious. + In the proportion that they teach morality and justice, and practice + kindness and charity—in that proportion they are a benefit. Every + church, therefore, is a mixed problem—part good and part bad. In one + direction it leads toward and sheds light; in the other direction its + influence is entirely bad. + </p> + <p> + Now, I would like to civilize the churches, so that they will be able to + do good deeds without building bad creeds. In other words, take out the + superstitious and the miraculous, and leave the human and the moral. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Why do you not respond to the occasional clergyman who + replies to your lectures? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In the first place, no clergyman has ever replied to my + lectures. In the second place, no clergyman ever will reply to my + lectures. He does not answer my arguments—he attacks me; and the + replies that I have seen are not worth answering. They are far below the + dignity of the question under discussion. Most of them are ill-mannered, + as abusive as illogical, and as malicious as weak. I cannot reply without + feeling humiliated. I cannot use their weapons, and my weapons they do not + understand. I attack Christianity because it is cruel, and they account + for all my actions by putting behind them base motives. They make it at + once a personal question. They imagine that epithets are good enough + arguments with which to answer an Infidel. A few years ago they would have + imprisoned me. A few years before that they would have burned me. We have + advanced. Now they only slander; and I congratulate myself on the fact + that even that is not believed. Ministers do not believe each other about + each other. The truth has never yet been ascertained in any trial by a + church. The longer the trial lasts, the obscurer is the truth. They will + not believe each other, even on oath; and one of the most celebrated + ministers of this country has publicly announced that there is no use in + answering a lie started by his own church; that if he does answer it—if + he does kill it—forty more lies will come to the funeral. + </p> + <p> + In this connection we must remember that the priests of one religion never + credit the miracles of another religion. Is this because priests + instinctively know priests? Now, when a Christian tells a Buddhist some of + the miracles of the Testament, the Buddhist smiles. When a Buddhist tells + a Christian the miracles performed by Buddha, the Christian laughs. This + reminds me of an incident. A man told a most wonderful story. Everybody + present expressed surprise and astonishment, except one man. He said + nothing; he did not even change countenance. One who noticed that the + story had no effect on this man, said to him: "You do not seem to be + astonished in the least at this marvelous tale." The man replied, "No; I + am a liar myself." + </p> + <p> + You see, I am not trying to answer individual ministers. I am attacking + the whole body of superstition. I am trying to kill the entire dog, and I + do not feel like wasting any time killing fleas on that dog. When the dog + dies, the fleas will be out of provisions, and in that way we shall answer + them all at once. + </p> + <p> + So, I do not bother myself answering religious newspapers. In the first + place, they are not worth answering; and in the second place, to answer + would only produce a new crop of falsehoods. You know, the editor of a + religious newspaper, as a rule, is one who has failed in the pulpit; and + you can imagine the brains necessary to edit a religious weekly from this + fact. I have known some good religious editors. By some I mean one. I do + not say that there are not others, but I do say I do not know them. I + might add, here, that the one I did know is dead. + </p> + <p> + Since I have been in this city there have been some "replies" to me. They + have been almost idiotic. A Catholic priest asked me how I had the + impudence to differ with Newton. Newton, he says, believed in a God; and I + ask this Catholic priest how he has the impudence to differ with Newton. + Newton was a Protestant. This simply shows the absurdity of using men's + names for arguments. This same priest proves the existence of God by a + pagan orator. Is it possible that God's last witness died with Cicero? If + it is necessary to believe in a God now, the witnesses ought to be on hand + now. + </p> + <p> + Another man, pretending to answer me, quotes Le Conte, a geologist; and + according to this geologist we are "getting very near to the splendors of + the great white throne." Where is the great white throne? Can any one, by + studying geology, find the locality of the great white throne? To what + stratum does it belong? In what geologic period was the great white throne + formed? What on earth has geology to do with the throne of God? + </p> + <p> + The truth is, there can be no reply to the argument that man should be + governed by his reason; that he should depend upon observation and + experience; that he should use the faculties he has for his own benefit, + and the benefit of his fellow-man. There is no answer. It is not within + the power of man to substantiate the supernatural. It is beyond the power + of evidence. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Why do the theological seminaries find it difficult to + get students? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I was told last spring, at New Haven, that the "theologs," + as they call the young men there being fitted for the ministry, were not + regarded as intellectual by all the other students. The orthodox pulpit + has no rewards for genius. It has rewards only for stupidity, for belief—not + for investigation, not for thought; and the consequence is that young men + of talent avoid the pulpit. I think I heard the other day that of all the + students at Harvard only nine are preparing for the ministry. The truth + is, the ministry is not regarded as an intellectual occupation. The + average church now consists of women and children. Men go to please their + wives, or stay at home and subscribe to please their wives; and the wives + are beginning to think, and many of them are staying at home. Many of them + now prefer the theatre or the opera or the park or the seashore or the + forest or the companionship of their husbands and children at home. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How does the religious state of California compare with + the rest of the Union? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I find that sensible people everywhere are about the same, + and the proportion of Freethinkers depends on the proportion of sensible + folks. I think that California has her full share of sensible people. I + find everywhere the best people and the brightest people—the people + with the most heart and the best brain—all tending toward free + thought. Of course, a man of brain cannot believe the miracles of the Old + and New Testaments. A man of heart cannot believe in the doctrine of + eternal pain. We have found that other religions are like ours, with + precisely the same basis, the same idiotic miracles, the same Christ or + Saviour. It will hardly do to say that all others like ours are false, and + ours the only true one, when others substantially like it are thousands of + years older. We have at last found that a religion is simply an effort on + the part of man to account for what he sees, what he experiences, what he + feels, what he fears, and what he hopes. Every savage has his philosophy. + That is his religion and his science. + </p> + <p> + The religions of to-day are the sciences of the past; and it may be that + the sciences of to-day will be the religions of the future, and that other + sciences will be as far beyond them as the science of to-day is beyond the + religion of to-day. As a rule, religion is a sanctified mistake, and + heresy a slandered fact. In other words, the human mind grows—and as + it grows it abandons the old, and the old gets its revenge by maligning + the new. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The San Franciscan</i>, San Francisco, October 4, 1884. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0045" id="link0045"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + BLAINE'S DEFEAT. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Colonel, the fact that you took no part in the late + campaign, is a subject for general comment, and knowing your former + enthusiastic advocacy and support of Blaine, the people are somewhat + surprised, and would like to know why? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In the first place, it was generally supposed that Blaine + needed no help. His friends were perfectly confident. They counted on a + very large Catholic support. The Irish were supposed to be spoiling to + vote for Blaine and Logan. All the Protestant ministers were also said to + be solid for the ticket. Under these circumstances it was hardly prudent + for me to say much. + </p> + <p> + I was for Blaine in 1876. In 1880 I was for Garfield, and in 1884 I was + for Gresham or Harlan. I believed then and I believe now that either one + of these men could have been elected. Blaine is an exceedingly able man, + but he made some mistakes and some very unfortunate utterances. I took no + part in the campaign; first, because there was no very important issue, no + great principle at stake, and second, I thought that I had done enough, + and, third, because I wanted to do something else. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What, in your opinion, were the causes for Blaine's + defeat? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. First, because of dissension in the party. Second, because + party ties have grown weak. Third, the Prohibition vote. Fourth, the + Delmonico dinner—too many rich men. Fifth, the Rev. Dr. Burchard + with his Rum, Romanism and Rebellion. Sixth, giving too much attention to + Ohio and not enough to New York. Seventh, the unfortunate remark of Mr. + Blaine, that "the State cannot get along without the Church." Eighth, the + weakness of the present administration. Ninth, the abandonment by the + party of the colored people of the South. Tenth, the feeling against + monopolies, and not least, a general desire for a change. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What, in your opinion, will be the result of Cleveland's + election and administration upon the general political and business + interests of the country? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The business interests will take care of themselves. A + dollar has the instinct of self-preservation largely developed. The tariff + will take care of itself. No State is absolutely for free trade. In each + State there is an exception. The exceptions will combine, as they always + have. Michigan will help Pennsylvania take care of iron, if Pennsylvania + will help Michigan take care of salt and lumber. Louisiana will help + Pennsylvania and Michigan if they help her take care of sugar. Colorado, + California and Ohio will help the other States if they will help them + about wool—and so I might make a tour of the States, ending with + Vermont and maple sugar. I do not expect that Cleveland will do any great + harm. The Democrats want to stay in power, and that desire will give + security for good behavior. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Will he listen to or grant any demands made of him by the + alleged Independent Republicans of New York, either in his appointments or + policies? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of this I know nothing. The Independents—from what I + know of them—will be too modest to claim credit or to ask office. + They were actuated by pure principle. They did what they did to purify the + party, so that they could stay in it. Now that it has been purified they + will remain, and hate the Democratic party as badly as ever. I hardly + think that Cleveland would insult their motives by offering loaves and + fishes. All they desire is the approval of their own consciences. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Commonwealth</i>, Topeka, Kansas, November 21, 1884. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0046" id="link0046"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + BLAINE'S DEFEAT. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. How do you account for the defeat of Mr. Blaine? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. How do I account for the defeat of Mr. Blaine? I will + answer: St. John, the Independents, Burchard, Butler and Cleveland did it. + The truth is that during the war a majority of the people, counting those + in the South, were opposed to putting down the Rebellion by force. It is + also true that when the Proclamation of Emancipation was issued a majority + of the people, counting the whole country, were opposed to it, and it is + also true that when the colored people were made citizens a majority of + the people, counting the whole country, were opposed to it. + </p> + <p> + Now, while, in my judgment, an overwhelming majority of the whole people + have honestly acquiesced in the result of the war, and are now perfectly + loyal to the Union, and have also acquiesced in the abolition of slavery, + I doubt very much whether they are really in favor of giving the colored + man the right to vote. Of course they have not the power now to take that + right away, but they feel anything but kindly toward the party that gave + the colored man that right. That is the only result of the war that is not + fully accepted by the South and by many Democrats of the North. + </p> + <p> + Another thing, the Republican party was divided—divided too by + personal hatreds. The party was greatly injured by the decision of the + Supreme Court in which the Civil Rights Bill was held void. Now, a great + many men who kept with the Republican party, did so because they believed + that that party would protect the colored man in the South, but as soon as + the Court decided that all the laws passed were unconstitutional, these + men felt free to vote for the other side, feeling that it would make no + difference. They reasoned this way: If the Republican party cannot defend + the colored people, why make a pretence that excites hatred on one side + and disarms the other? If the colored people have to depend upon the State + for protection, and the Federal Government cannot interfere, why say any + more about it? + </p> + <p> + I think that these men made a mistake and our party made a mistake in + accepting without protest a decision that was far worse than the one + delivered in the case of Dred Scott. By accepting this decision the most + important issue was abandoned. The Republican party must take the old + ground that it is the duty of the Federal Government to protect the + citizens, and that it cannot simply leave that duty to the State. It must + see to it that the State performs that duty. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Have you seen the published report that Dorsey claims to + have paid you one hundred thousand dollars for your services in the Star + Route Cases? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have seen the report, but Dorsey never said anything like + that. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is there no truth in the statement, then? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Well, Dorsey never said anything of the kind. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Then you do not deny that you received such an enormous + fee? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. All I say is that Dorsey did not say I did.* + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Commercial</i>, Louisville, Kentucky, October 24, 1884. + </p> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + [* Col. Ingersoll has been so criticised and maligned for + defending Mr. Dorsey in the Star Route cases, and so + frequently charged with having received an enormous fee, + that I think it but simple justice to his memory to say that + he received no such fee, and that the ridiculously small + sums he did receive were much more than offset by the amount + he had to pay as indorser of Mr. Dorsey's paper. —C. F. + FARRELL.] +</pre> + <p> + <a name="link0047" id="link0047"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + PLAGIARISM AND POLITICS. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What have you to say about the charges published in this + morning's <i>Herald</i> to the effect that you copied your lecture about + "Mistakes of Moses" from a chapter bearing the same title in a book called + Hittell's "Evidences against Christianity"? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. All I have to say is that the charge is utterly false. I + will give a thousand dollars reward to any one who will furnish a book + published before my lecture, in which that lecture can be found. It is + wonderful how malicious the people are who love their enemies. This charge + is wholly false, as all others of like nature are. I do not have to copy + the writings of others. The Christians do not seem to see that they are + constantly complimenting me by saying that what I write is so good that I + must have stolen it. Poor old orthodoxy! + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of the incoming administration, and + how will it affect the country? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I feel disposed to give Cleveland a chance. If he does the + fair thing, then it is the duty of all good citizens to say so. I do not + expect to see the whole country go to destruction because the Democratic + party is in power. Neither do I believe that business is going to suffer + on that account. The times are hard, and I fear will be much harder, but + they would have been substantially the same if Blaine had been elected. I + wanted the Republican party to succeed and fully expected to see Mr. + Blaine President, but I believe in making the best of what has happened. I + want no office, I want good government—wise legislation. I believe + in protection, but I want the present tariff reformed and I hope the + Democrats will be wise enough to do so. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How will the Democratic victory affect the colored people + in the South? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Certainly their condition will not be worse than it has + been. The Supreme Court decided that the Civil Rights Bill was + unconstitutional and that the Federal Government cannot interfere. That + was a bad decision and our party made a mistake in not protesting against + it. I believe it to be the duty of the Federal Government to protect all + its citizens, at home as well as abroad. My hope is that there will be a + division in the Democratic party. That party has something now to divide. + At last it has a bone, and probably the fighting will commence. I hope + that some new issue will take color out of politics, something about which + both white and colored may divide. Of course nothing would please me + better than to see the Democratic party become great and grand enough to + give the colored people their rights. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Why did you not take part in the campaign? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Well, I was afraid of frightening the preachers away. I + might have done good by scaring one, but I did not know Burchard until it + was too late. Seriously, I did not think that I was needed. I supposed + that Blaine had a walkover, that he was certain to carry New York. I had + business of my own to attend to and did not want to interfere with the + campaign. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the policy of nominating Blaine in + 1888, as has been proposed? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think it too early to say what will be done in 1888. + Parties do not exist for one man. Parties have certain ends in view and + they choose men as instruments to accomplish these ends. Parties belong to + principles, not persons. No party can afford to follow anybody. If in 1888 + Mr. Blaine should appear to be the best man for the party then he will be + nominated, otherwise not. I know nothing about any intention to nominate + him again and have no idea whether he has that ambition. The Whig party + was intensely loyal to Henry Clay and forgot the needs of the country, and + allowed the Democrats to succeed with almost unknown men. Parties should + not belong to persons, but persons should belong to parties. Let us not be + too previous—let us wait. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the course pursued by the Rev. Drs. + Ball and Burchard? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In politics the preacher is somewhat dangerous. He has a + standard of his own; he has queer ideas of evidence, great reliance on + hearsay; he is apt to believe things against candidates, just because he + wants to. The preacher thinks that all who differ with him are instigated + by the Devil—that their intentions are evil, and that when they + behave themselves they are simply covering the poison with sugar. It would + have been far better for the country if Mr. Ball had kept still. I do not + pretend to say that his intentions were not good. He likely thought it his + duty to lift a warning voice, to bawl aloud and to spare not, but I think + he made a mistake, and he now probably thinks so himself. Mr. Burchard was + bound to say a smart thing. It sounded well, and he allowed his ears to + run away with his judgment. As a matter of fact, there is no connection + between rum and Romanism. Catholic countries do not use as much alcohol as + Protestant. England has far more drunkards than Spain. Scotland can + discount Italy or Portugal in good, square drinking. So there is no + connection between Romanism and rebellion. Ten times as many Methodists + and twenty times as many Baptists went into the Rebellion as Catholics. + Thousands of Catholics fought as bravely as Protestants for the + preservation of the Union. No doubt Mr. Burchard intended well. He thought + he was giving Blaine a battle-cry that would send consternation into the + hearts of the opposition. My opinion is that in the next campaign the + preachers will not be called to the front. Of course they have the same + right to express their views that other people have, but other people have + the right to avoid the responsibility of appearing to agree with them. I + think though that it is about time to let up on Burchard. He has already + unloaded on the Lord. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think Cleveland will put any Southern men in his + Cabinet? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do. Nothing could be in worse taste than to ignore the + section that gave him three-fourths of his vote. The people have put the + Democratic party in power. They intended to do what they did, and why + should the South not be recognized? Garland would make a good + Attorney-General; Lamar has the ability to fill any position in the + Cabinet. I could name several others well qualified, and I suppose that + two or three Southern men will be in the Cabinet. If they are good enough + to elect a President they are good enough to be selected by a President. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of Mr. Conkling's course? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Mr. Conkling certainly had the right to keep still. He was + under no obligation to the party. The Republican papers have not tried to + secure his services. He has been very generally and liberally denounced + ever since his quarrel with Mr. Garfield, and it is only natural to resent + what a man feels to be an injustice. I suppose he has done what he + honestly thought was, under the circumstances, his duty. I believe him to + be a man of stainless integrity, and he certainly has as much independence + of character as one man can carry. It is time to put the party whip away. + People can be driven from, but not to, the Republican party. If we expect + to win in 1888 we must welcome recruits. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Plain Dealer</i>, Cleveland, Ohio, Dec. 11, 1884. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0048" id="link0048"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + RELIGIOUS PREJUDICE. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Will a time ever come when political campaigns will be + conducted independently of religious prejudice? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. As long as men are prejudiced, they will probably be + religious, and certainly as long as they are religious they will be + prejudiced, and every religionist who imagines the next world infinitely + more important than this, and who imagines that he gets his orders from + God instead of from his own reason, or from his fellow-citizens, and who + thinks that he should do something for the glory of God instead of for the + benefit of his fellow-citizens —just as long as they believe these + things, just so long their prejudices will control their votes. Every + good, ignorant, orthodox Christian places his Bible above laws and + constitutions. Every good, sincere and ignorant Catholic puts pope above + king and president, as well as above the legally expressed will of a + majority of his countrymen. Every Christian believes God to be the source + of all authority. I believe that the authority to govern comes from the + consent of the governed. Man is the source of power, and to protect and + increase human happiness should be the object of government. I think that + religious prejudices are growing weaker because religious belief is + growing weaker. And these prejudices —should men ever become really + civilized—will finally fade away. I think that a Presbyterian, + to-day, has no more prejudice against an Atheist than he has against a + Catholic. A Catholic does not dislike an Infidel any more than he does a + Presbyterian, and I believe, to-day, that most of the Presbyterians would + rather see and Atheist President than a pronounced Catholic. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is Agnosticism gaining ground in the United States? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course, there are thousands and thousands of men who + have now advanced intellectually to the point of perceiving the limit of + human knowledge. In other words, at last they are beginning to know enough + to know what can and cannot be known. Sensible men know that nobody knows + whether an infinite God exists or not. Sensible men know that an infinite + personality cannot, by human testimony, be established. Sensible men are + giving up trying to answer the questions of origin and destiny, and are + paying more attention to what happens between these questions—that + is to say, to this world. Infidelity increases as knowledge increases, as + fear dies, and as the brain develops. After all, it is a question of + intelligence. Only cunning performs a miracle, only ignorance believes it. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think that evolution and revealed religion are + compatible—that is to say, can a man be an evolutionist and a + Christian? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Evolution and Christianity may be compatible, provided you + take the ground that Christianity is only one of the links in the chain, + one of the phases of civilization. But if you mean by Christianity what is + generally understood, of course that and evolution are absolutely + incompatible. Christianity pretends to be not only the truth, but, so far + as religion is concerned, the whole truth. Christianity pretends to give a + history of religion and a prophecy of destiny. As a philosophy, it is an + absolute failure. As a history, it is false. There is no possible way by + which Darwin and Moses can be harmonized. There is an inexpressible + conflict between Christianity and Science, and both cannot long inhabit + the same brain. You cannot harmonize evolution and the atonement. The + survival of the fittest does away with original sin. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. From your knowledge of the religious tendency in the + United States, how long will orthodox religion be popular? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not think that orthodox religion is popular to-day. + The ministers dare not preach the creed in all its naked deformity and + horror. They are endeavoring with the vines of sentiment to cover up the + caves and dens in which crawl the serpents of their creed. Very few + ministers care now to speak of eternal pain. They leave out the lake of + fire and brimstone. They are not fond of putting in the lips of Christ the + loving words, "Depart from me, ye cursed." The miracles are avoided. In + short, what is known as orthodoxy is already unpopular. Most ministers are + endeavoring to harmonize what they are pleased to call science and + Christianity, and nothing is now so welcome to the average Christian as + some work tending to show that, after all, Joshua was an astronomer. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What section of the United States, East, West, North, or + South, is the most advanced in liberal religious ideas? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. That section of the country in which there is the most + intelligence is the most liberal. That section of the country where there + is the most ignorance is the most prejudiced. The least brain is the most + orthodox. There possibly is no more progressive city in the world, no more + liberal, than Boston. Chicago is full of liberal people. So is San + Francisco. The brain of New York is liberal. Every town, every city, is + liberal in the precise proportion that it is intelligent. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Will the religion of humanity be the religion of the + future? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes; it is the only religion now. All other is + superstition. What they call religion rests upon a supposed relation + between man and God. In what they call religion man is asked to do + something for God. As God wants nothing, and can by no possibility accept + anything, such a religion is simply superstition. Humanity is the only + possible religion. Whoever imagines that he can do anything for God is + mistaken. Whoever imagines that he can add to his happiness in the next + world by being useless in this, is also mistaken. And whoever thinks that + any God cares how he cuts his hair or his clothes, or what he eats, or + whether he fasts, or rings a bell, or puts holy water on his breast, or + counts beads, or shuts his eyes and says words to the clouds, is laboring + under a great mistake. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. A man in the Swaim Court Martial case was excluded as a + witness because he was an Atheist. Do you think the law in the next decade + will permit the affirmative oath? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. If belief affected your eyes, your ears, any of your + senses, or your memory, then, of course, no man ought to be a witness who + had not the proper belief. But unless it can be shown that Atheism + interferes with the sight, the hearing, or the memory, why should justice + shut the door to truth? + </p> + <p> + In most of the States of this Union I could not give testimony. Should a + man be murdered before my eyes I could not tell a jury who did it. + Christianity endeavors to make an honest man an outlaw. Christianity has + such a contemptible opinion of human nature that it does not believe a man + can tell the truth unless frightened by a belief in God. No lower opinion + of the human race has ever been expressed. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think that bigotry would persecute now for + religious opinion's sake, if it were not for the law and the press? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think that the church would persecute to-day if it had + the power, just as it persecuted in the past. We are indebted for nearly + all our religious liberty to the hypocrisy of the church. The church does + not believe. Some in the church do, and if they had the power, they would + torture and burn as of yore. Give the Presbyterian Church the power, and + it would not allow an Infidel to live. Give the Methodist Church the power + and the result would be the same. Give the Catholic Church the power—just + the same. No church in the United States would be willing that any other + church should have the power. The only men who are to be angels in the + next world are the ones who cannot be trusted with human liberty in this; + and the man who are destined to live forever in hell are the only + gentlemen with whom human liberty is safe. Why should Christians refuse to + persecute in this world, when their God is going to in the next? + </p> + <p> + —<i>Mail and Express</i>, New York, January 12, 1885. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0049" id="link0049"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + CLEVELAND AND HIS CABINET. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of Mr. Cleveland's Cabinet? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It is a very good Cabinet. Some objections have been made + to Mr. Lamar, but I think he is one of the very best. He is a man of + ability, of unquestioned integrity, and is well informed on national + affairs. Ever since he delivered his eulogy on the life and services of + Sumner, I have had great respect for Mr. Lamar. He is far beyond most of + his constituents, and has done much to destroy the provincial prejudices + of Mississippi. He will without doubt make an excellent Secretary of the + Interior. The South has no better representative man, and I believe his + appointment will, in a little while, be satisfactory to the whole country. + Bayard stands high in his party, and will certainly do as well as his + immediate predecessor. Nothing could be better than the change in the + Department of Justice. Garland is an able lawyer, has been an influential + Senator and will, in my judgment, make an excellent Attorney-General. The + rest of the Cabinet I know little about, but from what I hear I believe + they are men of ability and that they will discharge their duties well. + Mr. Vilas has a great reputation in Wisconsin, and is one of the best and + most forcible speakers in the country. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Will Mr. Cleveland, in your opinion, carry out the civil + service reform he professes to favor? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have no reason to suspect even that he will not. He has + promised to execute the law, and the promise is in words that do not admit + of two interpretations. Of course he is sincere. He knows that this course + will save him a world of trouble, and he knows that it makes no difference + about the politics of a copyist. All the offices of importance will in all + probability be filled by Democrats. The President will not put himself in + the power of his opponents. If he is to be held responsible for the + administration he must be permitted to choose his own assistants. This is + too plain to talk about. Let us give Mr. Cleveland a fair show—and + let us expect success instead of failure. I admit that many Presidents + have violated their promises. There seems to be something in the + atmosphere of Washington that breeds promise and prevents performance. I + suppose it is some kind of political malarial microbe. I hope that some + political Pasteur will, one of these days, discover the real disease so + that candidates can be vaccinated during the campaign. Until them, + presidential promises will be liable to a discount. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is the Republican party dead? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. My belief is that the next President will be a Republican, + and that both houses will be Republican in 1889. Mr. Blaine was defeated + by an accident—by the slip of another man's tongue. But it matters + little what party is in power if the Government is administered upon + correct principles, and if the Democracy adopt the views of the + Republicans and carry out Republican measures, it may be that they can + keep in power—otherwise—otherwise. If the Democrats carry out + real Democratic measures, then their defeat is certain. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think that the era of good feeling between the + North and the South has set in with the appointment of ex-rebels to the + Cabinet? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The war is over. The South failed. The Nation succeeded. We + should stop talking about South and North. We are one people, and whether + we agree or disagree one destiny awaits us. We cannot divide. We must live + together. We must trust each other. Confidence begets confidence. The + whole country was responsible for slavery. Slavery was rebellion. Slavery + is dead—so is rebellion. Liberty has united the country and there is + more real union, national sentiment to-day, North and South, than ever + before. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. It is hinted that Mr. Tilden is really the power behind + the throne. Do you think so? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I guess nobody has taken the hint. Of course Mr. Tilden has + retired from politics. The probability is that many Democrats ask his + advice, and some rely on his judgment. He is regarded as a piece of + ancient wisdom—a phenomenal persistence of the Jeffersonian type—the + connecting link with the framers, founders and fathers. The power behind + the throne is the power that the present occupant supposes will determine + who the next occupant shall be. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. With the introduction of the Democracy into power, what + radical changes will take place in the Government, and what will be the + result? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. If the President carries out his inaugural promises there + will be no radical changes, and if he does not there will be a very + radical change at the next presidential election. The inaugural is a very + good Republican document. There is nothing in it calculated to excite + alarm. There is no dangerous policy suggested—no conceited vagaries—nothing + but a plain statement of the situation and the duty of the Chief + Magistrate as understood by the President. I think that the inaugural + surprised the Democrats and the Republicans both, and if the President + carries out the program he has laid down he will surprise and pacify a + large majority of the American people. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Mail and Express</i>, New York, March 10, 1885. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0050" id="link0050"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + RELIGION, PROHIBITION, AND GEN. GRANT. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of prohibition, and what do you think + of its success in this State? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Few people understand the restraining influence of liberty. + Moderation walks hand in hand with freedom. I do not mean the freedom + springing from the sudden rupture of restraint. That kind of freedom + usually rushes to extremes. + </p> + <p> + People must be educated to take care of themselves, and this education + must commence in infancy. Self-restraint is the only kind that can always + be depended upon. Of course intemperance is a great evil. It causes + immense suffering—clothes wives and children in rags, and is + accountable for many crimes, particularly those of violence. Laws to be of + value must be honestly enforced. Laws that sleep had better be dead. Laws + to be enforced must be honestly approved of and believed in by a large + majority of the people. Unpopular laws make hypocrites, perjurers and + official shirkers of duty. And if to the violation of such laws severe + penalties attach, they are rarely enforced. Laws that create artificial + crimes are the hardest to carry into effect. You can never convince a + majority of people that it is as bad to import goods without paying the + legal duty as to commit larceny. Neither can you convince a majority of + people that it is a crime or sin, or even a mistake, to drink a glass of + wine or beer. Thousands and thousands of people in this State honestly + believe that prohibition is an interference with their natural rights, and + they feel justified in resorting to almost any means to defeat the law. + </p> + <p> + In this way people become somewhat demoralized. It is unfortunate to pass + laws that remain unenforced on account of their unpopularity. People who + would on most subjects swear to the truth do not hesitate to testify + falsely on a prohibition trial. In addition to this, every known device is + resorted to, to sell in spite of the law, and when some want to sell and a + great many want to buy, considerable business will be done, while there + are fewer saloons and less liquor sold in them. The liquor is poorer and + the price is higher. The consumer has to pay for the extra risk. More + liquor finds its way to homes, more men buy by the bottle and gallon. In + old times nearly everybody kept a little rum or whiskey on the sideboard. + The great Washingtonian temperance movement drove liquor out of the home + and increased the taverns and saloons. Now we are driving liquor back to + the homes. In my opinion there is a vast difference between distilled + spirits and the lighter drinks, such as wine and beer. Wine is a fireside + and whiskey a conflagration. These lighter drinks are not unhealthful and + do not, as I believe, create a craving for stronger beverages. You will, I + think, find it almost impossible to enforce the present law against wine + and beer. I was told yesterday that there are some sixty places in Cedar + Rapids where whiskey is sold. It takes about as much ceremony to get a + drink as it does to join the Masons, but they seem to like the ceremony. + People seem to take delight in outwitting the State when it does not + involve the commission of any natural offence, and when about to be + caught, may not hesitate to swear falsely to the extent of "don't + remember," or "can't say positively," or "can't swear whether it was + whiskey or not." + </p> + <p> + One great trouble in Iowa is that the politicians, or many of them who + openly advocate prohibition, are really opposed to it. They want to keep + the German vote, and they do not want to lose native Republicans. They + feel a "divided duty" to ride both horses. This causes the contrast + between their conversation and their speeches. A few years ago I took + dinner with a gentleman who had been elected Governor of one of our States + on the Prohibition ticket. We had four kinds of wine during the meal, and + a pony of brandy at the end. Prohibition will never be a success until it + prohibits the Prohibitionists. And yet I most sincerely hope and believe + that the time will come when drunkenness shall have perished from the + earth. Let us cultivate the love of home. Let husbands and wives and + children be companions. Let them seek amusements together. If it is a good + place for father to go, it is a good place for mother and the children. I + believe that a home can be made more attractive than a saloon. Let the + boys and girls amuse themselves at home—play games, study music, + read interesting books, and let the parents be their playfellows. The best + temperance lecture, in the fewest words, you will find in Victor Hugo's + great novel "Les Miserables." The grave digger is asked to take a drink. + He refuses and gives this reason: "The hunger of my family is the enemy of + my thirst." + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Many people wonder why you are out of politics. Will you + give your reasons? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. A few years ago great questions had to be settled. The life + of the nation was at stake. Later the liberty of millions of slaves + depended upon the action of the Government. Afterward reconstruction and + the rights of citizens pressed themselves upon the people for solution. + And last, the preservation of national honor and credit. These questions + did not enter into the last campaign. They had all been settled, and + properly settled, with the one exception of the duty of the nation to + protect the colored citizens. The Supreme Court settled that, at least for + a time, and settled it wrong. But the Republican party submitted to the + civil rights decision, and so, as between the great parties, that question + did not arise. This left only two questions—protection and office. + But as a matter of fact, all Republicans were not for our present system + of protection, and all Democrats were not against it. On that question + each party was and is divided. On the other question—office—both + parties were and are in perfect harmony. Nothing remains now for the + Democrats to do except to give a "working" definition of "offensive + partisanship." + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think that the American people are seeking after + truth, or do they want to be amused? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. We have all kinds. Thousands are earnestly seeking for the + truth. They are looking over the old creeds, they are studying the Bible + for themselves, they have the candor born of courage, they are depending + upon themselves instead of on the clergy. They have found out that the + clergy do not know; that their sources of information are not reliable; + that, like the politicians, many ministers preach one way and talk + another. The doctrine of eternal pain has driven millions from the church. + People with good hearts cannot get consolation out of that cruel lie. The + ministers themselves are getting ashamed to call that doctrine "the + tidings of great joy." The American people are a serious people. They want + to know the truth. They fell that whatever the truth may be they have the + courage to hear it. The American people also have a sense of humor. They + like to see old absurdities punctured and solemn stupidity held up to + laughter. They are, on the average, the most intelligent people on the + earth. They can see the point. Their wit is sharp, quick and logical. + Nothing amuses them more that to see the mask pulled from the face of + sham. The average American is generous, intelligent, level-headed, manly, + and good- natured. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What, in your judgment, is the source of the greatest + trouble among men? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Superstition. That has caused more agony, more tears, + persecution and real misery than all other causes combined. The other name + for superstition is ignorance. When men learn that all sin is a mistake, + that all dishonesty is a blunder, that even intelligent selfishness will + protect the rights of others, there will be vastly more happiness in this + world. Shakespeare says that "There is no darkness but ignorance." + Sometime man will learn that when he steals from another, he robs himself—that + the way to be happy is to make others so, and that it is far better to + assist his fellow-man than to fast, say prayers, count beads or build + temples to the Unknown. Some people tell us that selfishness is the only + sin, but selfishness grows in the soil of ignorance. After all, education + is the great lever, and the only one capable of raising mankind. People + ignorant of their own rights are ignorant of the rights of others. Every + tyrant is the slave of ignorance. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How soon do you think we would have the millennium if + every person attended strictly to his own business? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Now, if every person were intelligent enough to know his + own business—to know just where his rights ended and the rights of + others commenced, and then had the wisdom and honesty to act accordingly, + we should have a very happy world. Most people like to control the conduct + of others. They love to write rules, and pass laws for the benefit of + their neighbors, and the neighbors are pretty busy at the same business. + People, as a rule, think that they know the business of other people + better than they do their own. A man watching others play checkers or + chess always thinks he sees better moves than the players make. When all + people attend to their own business they will know that a part of their + own business is to increase the happiness of others. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is causing the development of this country? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Education, the free exchange of ideas, inventions by which + the forces of nature become our servants, intellectual hospitality, a + willingness to hear the other side, the richness of our soil, the extent + of our territory, the diversity of climate and production, our system of + government, the free discussion of political questions, our social + freedom, and above all, the fact that labor is honorable. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of the religious tendency of the + people of this country? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Using the word religion in its highest and best sense, the + people are becoming more religious. We are far more religious —using + the word in its best sense—than when we believed in human slavery, + but we are not as orthodox as we were then. We have more principle and + less piety. We care more for the right and less for the creed. The old + orthodox dogmas are mouldy. You will find moss on their backs. They are + only brought out when a new candidate for the ministry is to be examined. + Only a little while ago in New York a candidate for the Presbyterian + pulpit was examined and the following is a part of the examination: + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. "Do you believe in eternal punishment, as set forth in + the confession of faith?" + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. (With some hesitation) "Yes, I do." + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. "Have you preached on that subject lately?" + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. "No. I prepared a sermon on hell, in which I took the + ground that the punishment of the wicked will be endless, and have it with + me." + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. "Did you deliver it?" + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. "No. I thought that my congregation would not care to hear + it. The doctrine is rather unpopular where I have been preaching, and I + was afraid I might do harm, so I have not delivered it yet." + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. "But you believe in eternal damnation, do you not?" + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. "O yes, with all my heart." + </p> + <p> + He was admitted, and the admission proves the dishonesty of the examiners + and the examined. The new version of the Old and New Testaments has done + much to weaken confidence in the doctrine of inspiration. It has occurred + to a good many that if God took the pains to inspire men to write the + Bible, he ought to have inspired others to translate it correctly. The + general tendency today is toward science, toward naturalism, toward what + is called Infidelity, but is in fact fidelity. Men are in a transition + state, and the people, on the average, have more real good, sound sense + to-day than ever before. The church is losing its power for evil. The old + chains are wearing out, and new ones are not being made. The tendency is + toward intellectual freedom, and that means the final destruction of the + orthodox bastille. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of General Grant as he stands before + the people to-day? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have always regarded General Grant as the greatest + soldier this continent has produced. He is to-day the most distinguished + son of the Republic. The people have the greatest confidence in his + ability, his patriotism and his integrity. The financial disaster + impoverished General Grant, but he did not stain the reputation of the + grand soldier who led to many victories the greatest army that ever fought + for the liberties of man. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Iowa State Register</i>, May 23, 1885. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0051" id="link0051"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + HELL OR SHEOL AND OTHER SUBJECTS. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. Colonel, have you read the revised Testament? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, but I don't believe the work has been fairly done. The + clergy are not going to scrape the butter off their own bread. The clergy + are offensive partisans, and those of each denomination will interpret the + Scriptures their way. No Baptist minister would countenance a "Revision" + that favored sprinkling, and no Catholic priest would admit that any + version would be correct that destroyed the dogma of the "real presence." + So I might go through all the denominations. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Why was the word sheol introduced in place of hell, and + how do you like the substitute? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The civilized world has outgrown the vulgar and brutal hell + of their fathers and founders of the churches. The clergy are ashamed to + preach about sulphurous flames and undying worms. The imagination of the + world has been developed, the heart has grown tender, and the old dogma of + eternal pain shocks all civilized people. It is becoming disgraceful + either to preach or believe in such a beastly lie. The clergy are + beginning to think that it is hardly manly to frighten children with a + detected falsehood. Sheol is a great relief. It is not so hot as the old + place. The nights are comfortable, and the society is quite refined. The + worms are dead, and the air reasonably free from noxious vapors. It is a + much worse word to hold a revival with, but much better for every day use. + It will hardly take the place of the old word when people step on tacks, + put up stoves, or sit on pins; but for use at church fairs and mite + societies it will do about as well. We do not need revision; excision is + what we want. The barbarism should be taken out of the Bible. Passages + upholding polygamy, wars of extermination, slavery, and religious + persecution should not be attributed to a perfect God. The good that is in + the Bible will be saved for man, and man will be saved from the evil that + is in that book. Why should we worship in God what we detest in man? + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think the use of the word sheol will make any + difference to the preachers? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course it will make no difference with Talmage. He will + make sheol just as hot and smoky and uncomfortable as hell, but the + congregations will laugh instead of tremble. The old shudder has gone. + Beecher had demolished hell before sheol was adopted. According to his + doctrine of evolution hell has been slowly growing cool. The cindered + souls do not even perspire. Sheol is nothing to Mr. Beecher but a new name + for an old mistake. As for the effect it will have on Heber Newton, I + cannot tell, neither can he, until he asks his bishop. There are people + who believe in witches and madstones and fiat money, and centuries hence + it may be that people will exist who will believe as firmly in hell as Dr. + Shedd does now. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What about Beecher's sermons on "Evolution"? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Beecher's sermons on "Evolution" will do good. Millions of + people believe that Mr. Beecher knows at least as much as the other + preachers, and if he regards the atonement as a dogma with a mistake for a + foundation, they may conclude that the whole system is a mistake. But + whether Mr. Beecher is mistaken or not, people know that honesty is a good + thing, that gratitude is a virtue, that industry supports the world, and + that whatever they believe about religion they are bound by every + conceivable obligation to be just and generous. Mr. Beecher can no more + succeed in reconciling science and religion, than he could in convincing + the world that triangles and circles are exactly the same. There is the + same relation between science and religion that there is between astronomy + and astrology, between alchemy and chemistry, between orthodoxy and common + sense. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Have you read Miss Cleveland's book? She condemns George + Eliot's poetry on the ground that it has no faith in it, nothing beyond. + Do you imagine she would condemn Burns or Shelley for that reason? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have not read Miss Cleveland's book; but, if the author + condemns the poetry of George Eliot, she has made a mistake. There is no + poem in our language more beautiful than "The Lovers," and none loftier or + purer than "The Choir Invisible." There is no poetry in the "beyond." The + poetry is here—here in this world, where love is in the heart. The + poetry of the beyond is too far away, a little too general. Shelley's + "Skylark" was in our sky, the daisy of Burns grew on our ground, and + between that lark and that daisy is room for all the real poetry of the + earth. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Evening Record</i>, Boston, Mass., 1885. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0052" id="link0052"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + INTERVIEWING, POLITICS AND SPIRITUALISM. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of the peculiar institution of + American journalism known as interviewing? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. If the interviewers are fair, if they know how to ask + questions of a public nature, if they remember what is said, or write it + at the time, and if the interviewed knows enough to answer questions in a + way to amuse or instruct the public, then interviewing is a blessing. But + if the representative of the press asks questions, either impudent or + unimportant, and the answers are like the questions, then the institution + is a failure. When the journalist fails to see the man he wishes to + interview, or when the man refuses to be interviewed, and thereupon the + aforesaid journalist writes up an interview, doing the talking for both + sides, the institution is a success. Such interviews are always + interesting, and, as a rule, the questions are to the point and the + answers perfectly responsive. There is probably a little too much + interviewing, and to many persons are asked questions upon subjects about + which they know nothing. Mr. Smith makes some money in stocks or pork, + visits London, and remains in that city for several weeks. On his return + he is interviewd as to the institutions, laws and customs of the British + Empire. Of course such an interview is exceedingly instructive. Lord + Affanaff lands at the dock in North River, is driven to a hotel in a + closed carriage, is interviewed a few minutes after by a representative of + the <i>Herald</i> as to his view of the great Republic based upon what he + has seen. Such an interview is also instructive. Interviews with + candidates as to their chances of election is another favorite way of + finding out their honest opinion, but people who rely on those interviews + generally lose their bets. The most interesting interviews are generally + denied. I have been expecting to see an interview with the Rev. Dr. + Leonard on the medicinal properties of champagne and toast, or the + relation between old ale and modern theology, and as to whether + prohibition prohibits the Prohibitionists. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Have you ever been misrepresented in interviews? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Several times. As a general rule, the clergy have selected + these misrepresentations when answering me. I never blamed them, because + it is much easier to answer something I did not say. Most reporters try to + give my real words, but it is difficult to remember. They try to give the + substance, and in that way change or destroy the sense. You remember the + Frenchman who translated Shakespeare's great line in Macbeth—"Out, + brief candle!"—into "Short candle, go out!" Another man, trying to + give the last words of Webster—"I still live"—said "I aint + dead yit." So that when they try to do their best they often make + mistakes. Now and then interviews appear not one word of which I ever + said, and sometimes when I really had an interview, another one has + appeared. But generally the reporters treat me well, and most of them + succeed in telling about what I said. Personally I have no cause for + complaint. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the administration of President + Cleveland? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I know but very little about it. I suppose that he is doing + the best he can. He appears to be carrying out in good faith the + principles laid down in the platform on which he was elected. He is having + a hard road to travel. To satisfy an old Democrat and a new mugwump is a + difficult job. Cleveland appears to be the owner of himself—appears + to be a man of great firmness and force of character. The best thing that + I have heard about him is that he went fishing on Sunday. We have had so + much mock morality, dude deportment and hypocritical respectability in + public office, that a man with courage enough to enjoy himself on Sunday + is a refreshing and healthy example. All things considered I do not see + but that Cleveland is doing well enough. The attitude of the + administration toward the colored people is manly and fair so far as I can + see. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are you still a Republican in political belief? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I believe that this is a Nation. I believe in the equality + of all men before the law, irrespective of race, religion or color. I + believe that there should be a dollar's worth of silver in a silver + dollar. I believe in a free ballot and a fair count. I believe in + protecting those industries, and those only, that need protection. I + believe in unrestricted coinage of gold and silver. I believe in the + rights of the State, the rights of the citizen, and the sovereignty of the + Nation. I believe in good times, good health, good crops, good prices, + good wages, good food, good clothes and in the absolute and unqualified + liberty of thought. If such belief makes a Republican, than that is what I + am. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you approve of John Sherman's policy in the present + campaign with reference to the bloody shirt, which reports of his speeches + show that he is waving? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have not read Senator Sherman's speech. It seems to me + that there is a better feeling between the North and South than ever + before—better than at any time since the Revolutionary war. I + believe in cultivating that feeling, and in doing and saying what we can + to contribute to its growth. We have hated long enough and fought enough. + The colored people never have been well treated but they are being better + treated now than ever before. It takes a long time to do away with + prejudices that were based upon religion and rascality—that is to + say, inspiration and interest. We must remember that slavery was the crime + of the whole country. Now, if Senator Sherman has made a speech calculated + to excite the hatreds and prejudices of the North and South, I think that + he has made a mistake. I do not say that he has made such a speech, + because I have not read it. The war is over—it ended at Appomattox. + Let us hope that the bitterness born of the conflict died out forever at + Riverside. The people are tired almost to death of the old speeches. They + have been worn out and patched, and even the patches are threadbare. The + Supreme Court decided the Civil Rights Bill to be unconstitutional, and + the Republican party submitted. I regarded the decision as monstrous, but + the Republican party when in power said nothing and did nothing. I most + sincerely hope that the Democratic party will protect the colored people + at least as well as we did when we were in power. But I am out of politics + and intend to keep politics out of me. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. We have been having the periodical revival of interest in + Spiritualism. What do you think of "Spiritualism," as it is popularly + termed? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not believe in the supernatural. One who does not + believe in gods would hardly believe in ghosts. I am not a believer in any + of the "wonders" and "miracles" whether ancient or modern. There may be + spirits, but I do not believe there are. They may communicate with some + people, but thus far they have been successful in avoiding me. Of course, + I know nothing for certain on the subject. I know a great many excellent + people who are thoroughly convinced of the truth of Spiritualism. + Christians laugh at the "miracles" to-day, attested by folks they know, + but believe the miracles of long ago, attested by folks that they did not + know. This is one of the contradictions in human nature. Most people are + willing to believe that wonderful things happened long ago and will happen + again in the far future; with them the present is the only time in which + nature behaves herself with becoming sobriety. + </p> + <p> + In old times nature did all kinds of juggling tricks, and after a long + while will do some more, but now she is attending strictly to business, + depending upon cause and effect. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Who, in your opinion, is the greatest leader of the + "opposition" yclept the Christian religion? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I suppose that Mr. Beecher is the greatest man in the + pulpit, but he thinks more of Darwin than he does of David and has an idea + that the Old Testament is just a little too old. He has put evolution in + the place of the atonement—has thrown away the Garden of Eden, + snake, apples and all, and is endeavoring to save enough of the orthodox + wreck to make a raft. I know of no other genius in the pulpit. There are + plenty of theological doctors and bishops and all kinds of titled humility + in the sacred profession, but men of genius are scarce. All the ministers, + except Messrs. Moody and Jones, are busy explaining away the contradiction + between inspiration and demonstration. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What books would you recommend for the perusal of a young + man of limited time and culture with reference to helping him in the + development of intellect and good character? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The works of Darwin, Ernst Haeckel, Draper's "Intellectual + Development of Europe," Buckle's "History of Civilization in England," + Lecky's "History of European Morals," Voltaire's "Philosophical + Dictionary," Büchner's "Force and Matter," "The History of the + Christian Religion" by Waite; Paine's "Age of Reason," D'Holbach's "System + of Nature," and, above all, Shakespeare. Do not forget Burns, Shelley, + Dickens and Hugo. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Will you lecture the coming winter? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, about the same as usual. Woe is me if I preach not my + gospel. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Have you been invited to lecture in Europe? If so do you + intend to accept the "call"? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, often. The probability is that I shall go to England + and Australia. I have not only had invitations but most excellent offers + from both countries. There is, however, plenty to do here. This is the + best country in the world and our people are eager to hear the other side. + </p> + <p> + The old kind of preaching is getting superannuated. It lags superfluous in + the pulpit. Our people are outgrowing the cruelties and absurdities of the + ancient Jews. The idea of hell has become shocking and vulgar. Eternal + punishment is eternal injustice. It is infinitely infamous. Most ministers + are ashamed to preach the doctrine, and the congregations are ashamed to + hear it preached. It is the essence of savagery. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Plain Dealer</i>, Cincinnati, Ohio, September 5, 1885. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0053" id="link0053"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + MY BELIEF. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. It is said that in the past four or five years you have + changed or modified your views upon the subject of religion; is this so? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It is not so. The only change, if that can be called a + change, is, that I am more perfectly satisfied that I am right— + satisfied that what is called orthodox religion is a simple fabrication of + mistaken men; satisfied that there is no such thing as an inspired book + and never will be; satisfied that a miracle never was and never will be + performed; satisfied that no human being knows whether there is a God or + not, whether there is another life or not; satisfied that the scheme of + atonement is a mistake, that the innocent cannot, by suffering for the + guilty, atone for the guilt; satisfied that the doctrine that salvation + depends on belief, is cruel and absurd; satisfied that the doctrine of + eternal punishment is infamously false; satisfied that superstition is of + no use to the human race; satisfied that humanity is the only true and + real religion. + </p> + <p> + No, I have not modified my views. I detect new absurdities every day in + the popular belief. Every day the whole thing becomes more and more + absurd. Of course there are hundreds and thousands of most excellent + people who believe in orthodox religion; people for whose good qualities I + have the greatest respect; people who have good ideas on most other + subjects; good citizens, good fathers, husbands, wives and children—good + in spite of their religion. I do not attack people. I attack the mistakes + of people. Orthodoxy is getting weaker every day. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you believe in the existence of a Supreme Being? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not believe in any Supreme personality or in any + Supreme Being who made the universe and governs nature. I do not say that + there is no such Being—all I say is that I do not believe that such + a Being exists. I know nothing on the subject, except that I know that I + do not know and that nobody else knows. But if there is such a Being, he + certainly never wrote the Old Testament. You will understand my position. + I do not say that a Supreme Being does not exist, but I do say that I do + not believe such a Being exists. The universe—embracing all that is—all + atoms, all stars, each grain of sand and all the constellations, each + thought and dream of animal and man, all matter and all force, all doubt + and all belief, all virtue and all crime, all joy and all pain, all growth + and all decay—is all there is. It does not act because it is moved + from without. It acts from within. It is actor and subject, means and end. + </p> + <p> + It is infinite; the infinite could not have been created. It is + indestructible and that which cannot be destroyed was not created. I am a + Pantheist. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Don't you think the belief of the Agnostic is more + satisfactory to the believer than that of the Atheist? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. There is no difference. The Agnostic is an Atheist. The + Atheist is an Agnostic. The Agnostic says: "I do not know, but I do not + believe there is any God." The Atheist says the same. The orthodox + Christian says he knows there is a God; but we know that he does not know. + He simply believes. He cannot know. The Atheist cannot know that God does + not exist. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Haven't you just the faintest glimmer of a hope that in + some future state you will meet and be reunited to those who are dear to + you in this? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have no particular desire to be destroyed. I am willing + to go to heaven if there be such a place, and enjoy myself for ever and + ever. It would give me infinite satisfaction to know that all mankind are + to be happy forever. Infidels love their wives and children as well as + Christians do theirs. I have never said a word against heaven—never + said a word against the idea of immortality. On the contrary, I have said + all I could truthfully say in favor of the idea that we shall live again. + I most sincerely hope that there is another world, better than this, where + all the broken ties of love will be united. It is the other place I have + been fighting. Better that all of us should sleep the sleep of death + forever than that some should suffer pain forever. If in order to have a + heaven there must be a hell, then I say away with them both. My doctrine + puts the bow of hope over every grave; my doctrine takes from every + mother's heart the fear of hell. No good man would enjoy himself in heaven + with his friends in hell. No good God could enjoy himself in heaven with + millions of his poor, helpless mistakes in hell. The orthodox idea of + heaven—with God an eternal inquisitor, a few heartless angels and + some redeemed orthodox, all enjoying themselves, while the vast multitude + will weep in the rayless gloom of God's eternal dungeon—is not + calculated to make man good or happy. I am doing what I can to civilize + the churches, humanize the preachers and get the fear of hell out of the + human heart. In this business I am meeting with great success. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Philadelphia Times</i>, September 25, 1885. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0054" id="link0054"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + SOME LIVE TOPICS. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. Shall you attend the Albany Freethought Convention? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have agreed to be present not only, but to address the + convention, on Sunday, the 13th of September. I am greatly gratified to + know that the interest in the question of intellectual liberty is growing + from year to year. Everywhere I go it seems to be the topic of + conversation. No matter upon what subject people begin to talk, in a + little while the discussion takes a religious turn, and people who a few + moments before had not the slightest thought of saying a word about the + churches, or about the Bible, are giving their opinions in full. I hear + discussions of this kind in all the public conveyances, at the hotels, on + the piazzas at the seaside—and they are not discussions in which I + take any part, because I rarely say anything upon these questions except + in public, unless I am directly addressed. + </p> + <p> + There is a general feeling that the church has ruled the world long + enough. People are beginning to see that no amount of eloquence, or faith, + or erudition, or authority, can make the records of barbarism satisfactory + to the heart and brain of this century. They have also found that a + falsehood in Hebrew in no more credible than in plain English. People at + last are beginning to be satisfied that cruel laws were never good laws, + no matter whether inspired or uninspired. The Christian religion, like + every other religion depending upon inspired writings, is wrecked upon the + facts of nature. So long as inspired writers confined themselves to the + supernatural world; so long as they talked about angels and Gods and + heavens and hells; so long as they described only things that man has + never seen, and never will see, they were safe, not from contradiction, + but from demonstration. But these writings had to have a foundation, even + for their falsehoods, and that foundation was in Nature. The foundation + had to be something about which somebody knew something, or supposed they + knew something. They told something about this world that agreed with the + then general opinion. Had these inspired writers told the truth about + Nature— had they said that the world revolved on its axis, and made + a circuit about the sun—they could have gained no credence for their + statements about other worlds. They were forced to agree with their + contemporaries about this world, and there is where they made the + fundamental mistake. Having grown in knowledge, the world has discovered + that these inspired men knew nothing about this earth; that the inspired + books are filled with mistakes—not only mistakes that we can + contradict, but mistakes that we can demonstrate to be mistakes. Had they + told the truth in their day, about this earth, they would not have been + believed about other worlds, because their contemporaries would have used + their own knowledge about this world to test the knowledge of these + inspired men. We pursue the same course; and what we know about this world + we use as the standard, and by that standard we have found that the + inspired men knew nothing about Nature as it is. Finding that they were + mistaken about this world, we have no confidence in what they have said + about another. Every religion has had its philosophy about this world, and + every one has been mistaken. As education becomes general, as scientific + modes are adopted, this will become clearer and clearer, until "ignorant + as inspiration" will be a comparison. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Have you seen the memorial to the New York Legislature, + to be presented this winter, asking for the repeal of such laws as + practically unite church and state? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have seen a memorial asking that church property be taxed + like other property; that no more money should be appropriated from the + public treasury for the support of institutions managed by and in the + interest of sectarian denominations; for the repeal of all laws compelling + the observance of Sunday as a religious day. Such memorials ought to be + addressed to the Legislatures of all the States. The money of the public + should only be used for the benefit of the public. Public money should not + be used for what a few gentlemen think is for the benefit of the public. + Personally, I think it would be for the benefit of the public to have + Infidel or scientific—which is the same thing—lectures + delivered in every town, in every State, on every Sunday; but knowing that + a great many men disagree with me on this point, I do not claim that such + lectures ought to be paid for with public money. The Methodist Church + ought not to be sustained by taxation, nor the Catholic, nor any other + church. To relieve their property from taxation is to appropriate money, + to the extent of that tax, for the support of that church. Whenever a + burden is lifted from one piece of property, it is distributed over the + rest of the property of the State, and to release one kind of property is + to increase the tax on all other kinds. + </p> + <p> + There was a time when people really supposed the churches were saving + souls from the eternal wrath of a God of infinite love. Being engaged in + such a philanthropic work, and at the time nobody having the courage to + deny it—the church being all-powerful—all other property was + taxed to support the church; but now the more civilized part of the + community, being satisfied that a God of infinite love will not be + eternally unjust, feel as though the church should support herself. To + exempt the church from taxation is to pay a part of the priest's salary. + The Catholic now objects to being taxed to support a school in which his + religion is not taught. He is not satisfied with the school that says + nothing on the subject of religion. He insists that it is an outrage to + tax him to support a school where the teacher simply teaches what he + knows. And yet this same Catholic wants his church exempted from taxation, + and the tax of an Atheist or of a Jew increased, when he teaches in his + untaxed church that the Atheist and Jew will both be eternally damned! Is + it possible for impudence to go further? + </p> + <p> + I insist that no religion should be taught in any school supported by + public money; and by religion I mean superstition. Only that should be + taught in a school that somebody can learn and that somebody can know. In + my judgment, every church should be taxed precisely the same as other + property. The church may claim that it is one of the instruments of + civilization and therefore should be exempt. If you exempt that which is + useful, you exempt every trade and every profession. In my judgment, + theatres have done more to civilize mankind than churches; that is to say, + theatres have done something to civilize mankind—churches nothing. + The effect of all superstition has been to render men barbarous. I do not + believe in the civilizing effects of falsehood. + </p> + <p> + There was a time when ministers were supposed to be in the employ of God, + and it was thought that God selected them with great care —that + their profession had something sacred about it. These ideas are no longer + entertained by sensible people. Ministers should be paid like other + professional men, and those who like their preaching should pay for the + preach. They should depend, as actors do, upon their popularity, upon the + amount of sense, or nonsense, that they have for sale. They should depend + upon the market like other people, and if people do not want to hear + sermons badly enough to build churches and pay for them, and pay the taxes + on them, and hire the preacher, let the money be diverted to some other + use. The pulpit should no longer be a pauper. I do not believe in carrying + on any business with the contribution box. All the sectarian institutions + ought to support themselves. These should be no Methodist or Catholic or + Presbyterian hospitals or orphan asylums. All these should be supported by + the State. There is no such thing as Catholic charity, or Methodist + charity. Charity belongs to humanity, not to any particular form of faith + or religion. You will find as charitable people who never heard of + religion, as you can find in the church. The State should provide for + those who ought to be provided for. A few Methodists beg of everybody they + meet—send women with subscription papers, asking money from all + classes of people, and nearly everybody gives something from politeness, + or to keep from being annoyed; and when the institution is finished, it is + pointed at as the result of Methodism. + </p> + <p> + Probably a majority of the people in this country suppose that there was + no charity in the world until the Christian religion was founded. Great + men have repeated this falsehood, until ignorance and thoughtlessness + believe it. There were orphan asylums in China, in India, and in Egypt + thousands of years before Christ was born; and there certainly never was a + time in the history of the whole world when there was less charity in + Europe than during the centuries when the Church of Christ had absolute + power. There were hundreds of Mohammedan asylums before Christianity had + built ten in the entire world. + </p> + <p> + All institutions for the care of unfortunate people should be secular—should + be supported by the State. The money for the purpose should be raised by + taxation, to the end that the burden may be borne by those able to bear + it. As it is now, most of the money is paid, not by the rich, but by the + generous, and those most able to help their needy fellow citizens are the + very ones who do nothing. If the money is raised by taxation, then the + burden will fall where it ought to fall, and these institutions will no + longer be supported by the generous and emotional, and the rich and stingy + will no longer be able to evade the duties of citizenship and of humanity. + </p> + <p> + Now, as to the Sunday laws, we know that they are only spasmodically + enforced. Now and then a few people are arrested for selling papers or + cigars. Some unfortunate barber is grabbed by a policeman because he has + been caught shaving a Christian, Sunday morning. Now and then some poor + fellow with a hack, trying to make a dollar or two to feed his horses, or + to take care of his wife and children, is arrested as though he were a + murderer. But in a few days the public are inconvenienced to that degree + that the arrests stop and business goes on in its accustomed channels, + Sunday and all. + </p> + <p> + Now and then society becomes so pious, so virtuous, that people are + compelled to enter saloons by the back door; others are compelled to drink + beer with the front shutters up; but otherwise the stream that goes down + the thirsty throats is unbroken. The ministers have done their best to + prevent all recreation on the Sabbath. They would like to stop all the + boats on the Hudson, and on the sea— stop all the excursion trains. + They would like to compel every human being that lives in the city of New + York to remain within its limits twenty-four hours every Sunday. They hate + the parks; they hate music; they hate anything that keeps a man away from + church. Most of the churches are empty during the summer, and now most of + the ministers leave themselves, and give over the entire city to the Devil + and his emissaries. And yet if the ministers had their way, there would be + no form of human enjoyment except prayer, signing subscription papers, + putting money in contribution boxes, listening to sermons, reading the + cheerful histories of the Old Testament, imagining the joys of heaven and + the torments of hell. The church is opposed to the theatre, is the enemy + of the opera, looks upon dancing as a crime, hates billiards, despises + cards, opposes roller-skating, and even entertains a certain kind of + prejudice against croquet. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think that the orthodox church gets its ideas of + the Sabbath from the teachings of Christ? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not hold Christ responsible for these idiotic ideas + concerning the Sabbath. He regarded the Sabbath as something made for man—which + was a very sensible view. The holiest day is the happiest day. The most + sacred day is the one in which have been done the most good deeds. There + are two reasons given in the Bible for keeping the Sabbath. One is that + God made the world in six days, and rested on the seventh. Now that all + the ministers admit that he did not make the world in six days, but that + he made it in six "periods," this reason is no longer applicable. The + other reason is that he brought the Jews out of Egypt with a "mighty + hand." This may be a very good reason still for the observance of the + Sabbath by the Jews, but the real Sabbath, that is to say, the day to be + commemorated, is our Saturday, and why should we commemorate the wrong + day? That disposes of the second reason. + </p> + <p> + Nothing can be more inconsistent than the theories and practice of the + churches about the Sabbath. The cars run Sundays, and out of the profits + hundreds of ministers are supported. The great iron and steel works fill + with smoke and fire the Sabbath air, and the proprietors divide the + profits with the churches. The printers of the city are busy Sunday + afternoons and evenings, and the presses during the nights, so that the + sermons of Sunday can reach the heathen on Monday. The servants of the + rich are denied the privileges of the sanctuary. The coachman sits on the + box out-doors, while his employer kneels in church preparing himself for + the heavenly chariot. The iceman goes about on the holy day, keeping + believers cool, they knowing at the same time that he is making it hot for + himself in the world to come. Christians cross the Atlantic, knowing that + the ship will pursue its way on the Sabbath. They write letters to their + friends knowing that they will be carried in violation of Jehovah's law, + by wicked men. Yet they hate to see a pale-faced sewing girl enjoying a + few hours by the sea; a poor mechanic walking in the fields; or a tired + mother watching her children playing on the grass. Nothing ever was, + nothing ever will be, more utterly absurd and disgusting than a Puritan + Sunday. Nothing ever did make a home more hateful than the strict + observance of the Sabbath. It fills the house with hypocrisy and the + meanest kind of petty tyranny. The parents look sour and stern, the + children sad and sulky. They are compelled to talk upon subjects about + which they feel no interest, or to read books that are thought good only + because they are so stupid. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What have you to say about the growth of Catholicism, the + activity of the Salvation Army, and the success of revivalists like the + Rev. Samuel Jones? Is Christianity really gaining a strong hold on the + masses? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Catholicism is growing in this country, and it is the only + country on earth in which it is growing. Its growth here depends entirely + upon immigration, not upon intellectual conquest. Catholic emigrants who + leave their homes in the Old World because they have never had any + liberty, and who are Catholics for the same reason, add to the number of + Catholics here, but their children's children will not be Catholics. Their + children will not be very good Catholics, and even these immigrants + themselves, in a few years, will not grovel quite so low in the presence + of a priest. The Catholic Church is gaining no ground in Catholic + countries. + </p> + <p> + The Salvation Army is the result of two things—the general belief in + what are known as the fundamentals of Christianity, and the heartlessness + of the church. The church in England—that is to say, the Church of + England—having succeeded—that is to say, being supported by + general taxation—that is to say, being a successful, well-fed + parasite—naturally neglected those who did not in any way contribute + to its support. It became aristocratic. Splendid churches were built; + younger sons with good voices were put in the pulpits; the pulpit became + the asylum for aristocratic mediocrity, and in this way the Church of + England lost interest in the masses and the masses lost interest in the + Church of England. The neglected poor, who really had some belief in + religion, and who had not been absolutely petrified by form and patronage, + were ready for the Salvation Army. They were not at home in the church. + They could not pay. They preferred the freedom of the street. They + preferred to attend a church where rags were no objection. Had the church + loved and labored with the poor the Salvation Army never would have + existed. These people are simply giving their idea of Christianity, and in + their way endeavoring to do what they consider good. I don't suppose the + Salvation Army will accomplish much. To improve mankind you must change + conditions. It is not enough to work simply upon the emotional nature. The + surroundings must be such as naturally produce virtuous actions. If we are + to believe recent reports from London, the Church of England, even with + the assistance of the Salvation Army, has accomplished but little. It + would be hard to find any country with less morality. You would search + long in the jungles of Africa to find greater depravity. + </p> + <p> + I account for revivalists like the Rev. Samuel Jones in the same way. + There is in every community an ignorant class—what you might call a + literal class—who believe in the real blood atonement; who believe + in heaven and hell, and harps and gridirons; who have never had their + faith weakened by reading commentators or books harmonizing science and + religion. They love to hear the good old doctrine; they want hell + described; they want it described so that they can hear the moans and + shrieks; they want heaven described; they want to see God on a throne, and + they want to feel that they are finally to have the pleasure of looking + over the battlements of heaven and seeing all their enemies among the + damned. The Rev. Mr. Munger has suddenly become a revivalist. According to + the papers he is sought for in every direction. His popularity seems to + rest upon the fact that he brutally beat a girl twelve years old because + she did not say her prayers to suit him. Muscular Christianity is what the + ignorant people want. I regard all these efforts—including those + made by Mr. Moody and Mr. Hammond—as evidence that Christianity, as + an intellectual factor, has almost spent its force. It no longer governs + the intellectual world. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are not the Catholics the least progressive? And are they + not, in spite of their professions to the contrary, enemies to republican + liberty? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Every church that has a standard higher than human welfare + is dangerous. A church that puts a book above the laws and constitution of + its country, that puts a book above the welfare of mankind, is dangerous + to human liberty. Every church that puts itself above the legally + expressed will of the people is dangerous. Every church that holds itself + under greater obligation to a pope than to a people is dangerous to human + liberty. Every church that puts religion above humanity—above the + well-being of man in this world—is dangerous. The Catholic Church + may be more dangerous, not because its doctrines are more dangerous, but + because, on the average, its members more sincerely believe its doctrines, + and because that church can be hurled as a solid body in any given + direction. For these reasons it is more dangerous than other churches; but + the doctrines are no more dangerous than those of the Protestant churches. + The man who would sacrifice the well- being of man to please an imaginary + phantom that he calls God, is also dangerous. The only safe standard is + the well-being of man in this world. Whenever this world is sacrificed for + the sake of another, a mistake has been made. The only God that man can + know is the aggregate of all beings capable of suffering and of joy within + the reach of his influence. To increase the happiness of such beings is to + worship the only God that man can know. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What have you to say to the assertion of Dr. Deems that + there were never so many Christians as now? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I suppose that the population of the earth is greater now + than at any other time within the historic period. This being so, there + may be more Christians, so-called, in this world than there were a hundred + years ago. Of course, the reverend doctor, in making up his aggregate of + Christians, counts all kinds and sects—Unitarians, Universalists, + and all the other "ans" and "ists" and "ics" and "ites" and "ers." But Dr. + Deems must admit that only a few years ago most of the persons he now + calls Christians would have been burnt as heretics and Infidels. Let us + compare the average New York Christian with the Christian of two hundred + years ago. It is probably safe to say that there is not now in the city of + New York a genuine Presbyterian outside of an insane asylum. Probably no + one could be found who will to-day admit that he believes absolutely in + the Presbyterian Confession of Faith. There is probably not an + Episcopalian who believes in the Thirty-nine Articles. Probably there is + not an intelligent minister in the city of New York, outside of the + Catholic Church, who believes that everything in the Bible is true. + Probably no clergyman, of any standing, would be willing to take the + ground that everything in the Old Testament—leaving out the question + of inspiration—is actually true. Very few ministers now preach the + doctrine of eternal punishment. Most of them would be ashamed to utter + that brutal falsehood. A large majority of gentlemen who attend church + take the liberty of disagreeing with the preacher. They would have been + very poor Christians two hundred years ago. A majority of the ministers + take the liberty of disagreeing, in many things, with their Presbyteries + and Synods. They would have been very poor preachers two hundred years + ago. Dr. Deems forgets that most Christians are only nominally so. Very + few believe their creeds. Very few even try to live in accordance with + what they call Christian doctrines. Nobody loves his enemies. No Christian + when smitten on one cheek turns the other. Most Christians do take a + little thought for the morrow. They do not depend entirely upon the + providence of God. Most Christians now have greater confidence in the + average life-insurance company than in God—feel easier when dying to + know that they have a policy, through which they expect the widow will + receive ten thousand dollars, than when thinking of all the Scripture + promises. Even church-members do not trust in God to protect their own + property. They insult heaven by putting lightning rods on their temples. + They insure the churches against the act of God. The experience of man has + shown the wisdom of relying on something that we know something about, + instead of upon the shadowy supernatural. The poor wretches to-day in + Spain, depending upon their priests, die like poisoned flies; die with + prayers between their pallid lips; die in their filth and faith. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What have you to say on the Mormon question? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The institution of polygamy is infamous and disgusting + beyond expression. It destroys what we call, and all civilized people + call, "the family." It pollutes the fireside, and, above all, as Burns + would say, "petrifies the feeling." It is, however, one of the + institutions of Jehovah. It is protected by the Bible. It has inspiration + on its side. Sinai, with its barren, granite peaks, is a perpetual witness + in its favor. The beloved of God practiced it, and, according to the + sacred word, the wisest man had, I believe, about seven hundred wives. + This man received his wisdom directly from God. It is hard for the average + Bible worshiper to attack this institution without casting a certain stain + upon his own book. + </p> + <p> + Only a few years ago slavery was upheld by the same Bible. Slavery having + been abolished, the passages in the inspired volume upholding it have been + mostly forgotten, but polygamy lives, and the polygamists, with great + volubility, repeat the passages in their favor. We send our missionaries + to Utah, with their Bibles, to convert the Mormons. + </p> + <p> + The Mormons show, by these very Bibles, that God is on their side. Nothing + remain now for the missionaries except to get back their Bibles and come + home. The preachers do not appeal to the Bible for the purpose of putting + down Mormonism. They say: "Send the army." If the people of this country + could only be honest; if they would only admit that the Old Testament is + but the record of a barbarous people; if the Samson of the nineteenth + century would not allow its limbs to be bound by the Delilah of + superstition, it could with one blow destroy this monster. What shall we + say of the moral force of Christianity, when it utterly fails in the + presence of Mormonism? What shall we say of a Bible that we dare not read + to a Mormon as an argument against legalized lust, or as an argument + against illegal lust? + </p> + <p> + I am opposed to polygamy. I want it exterminated by law; but I hate to see + the exterminators insist that God, only a few thousand years ago, was as + bad as the Mormons are to-day. In my judgment, such a God ought to be + exterminated. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of men like the Rev. Henry Ward Beecher + and the Rev. R. Heber Newton? Do they deserve any credit for the course + they have taken? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Mr. Beecher is evidently endeavoring to shore up the walls + of the falling temple. He sees the cracks; he knows that the building is + out of plumb; he feels that the foundation is insecure. Lies can take the + place of stones only so long as they are thoroughly believed. Mr. Beecher + is trying to do something to harmonize superstition and science. He is + reading between the lines. He has discovered that Darwin is only a later + Saint Paul, or that Saint Paul was the original Darwin. He is endeavoring + to make the New Testament a scientific text-book. Of course he will fail. + But his intentions are good. Thousands of people will read the New + Testament with more freedom than heretofore. They will look for new + meanings; and he who looks for new meanings will not be satisfied with the + old ones. Mr. Beecher, instead of strengthening the walls, will make them + weaker. + </p> + <p> + There is no harmony between religion and science. When science was a + child, religion sought to strangle it in the cradle. Now that science has + attained its youth, and superstition is in its dotage, the trembling, + palsied wreck says to the athlete: "Let us be friends." It reminds me of + the bargain the cock wished to make with the horse: "Let us agree not to + step on each other's feet." Mr. Beecher, having done away with hell, + substitutes annihilation. His doctrine at present is that only a fortunate + few are immortal, and that the great mass return to dreamless dust. This, + of course, is far better than hell, and is a great improvement on the + orthodox view. Mr. Beecher cannot believe that God would make such a + mistake as to make men doomed to suffer eternal pain. Why, I ask, should + God give life to men whom he knows are unworthy of life? Why should he + annihilate his mistakes? Why should he make mistakes that need + annihilation? + </p> + <p> + It can hardly be said that Mr. Beecher's idea is a new one. It was taught, + with an addition, thousands of years ago, in India, and the addition + almost answers my objection. The old doctrine was that only the soul that + bears fruit, only the soul that bursts into blossom, will at the death of + the body rejoin the Infinite, and that all other souls—souls not + having blossomed—will go back into low forms and make the journey up + to man once more, and should they then blossom and bear fruit, will be + held worthy to join the Infinite, but should they again fail, they again + go back; and this process is repeated until they do blossom, and in this + way all souls at last become perfect. I suggest that Mr. Beecher make at + least this addition to his doctrine. + </p> + <p> + But allow me to say that, in my judgment, Mr. Beecher is doing great good. + He may not convince many people that he is right, but he will certainly + convince a great many people that Christianity is wrong. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. In what estimation do you hold Charles Watts and Samuel + Putnam, and what do you think of their labors in the cause of Freethought? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Mr. Watts is an extremely logical man, with a direct and + straightforward manner and mind. He has paid great attention to what is + called "Secularism." He thoroughly understands organization, and he is + undoubtedly one of the strongest debaters in the field. He has had great + experience. He has demolished more divines than any man of my + acquaintance. I have read several of his debates. In discussion he is + quick, pertinent, logical, and, above all, good natured. + </p> + <p> + There is not in all he says a touch of malice. He can afford to be + generous to his antagonists, because he is always the victor, and is + always sure of the victory. Last winter wherever I went, I heard the most + favorable accounts of Mr. Watts. All who heard him were delighted. + </p> + <p> + Mr. Putnam is one of the most thorough believers in intellectual liberty + in the world. He believes with all his heart, is full of enthusiasm, ready + to make any sacrifice, and to endure any hardship. Had he lived a few + years ago, he would have been a martyr. He has written some of the most + stirring appeals to the Liberals of this country that I have ever read. He + believes that Freethought has a future; that the time is coming when the + superstitions of the world will either be forgotten, or remembered—some + of them with smiles—most of them with tears. Mr. Putnam, although + endowed with a poetic nature, with poetic insight, clings to the known, + builds upon the experience of man, and believes in fancies only when they + are used as the wings of a fact. I have never met a man who appeared to be + more thoroughly devoted to the great cause of mental freedom. I have read + his books with great interest, and find in them many pages filled with + philosophy and pathos. I have met him often and I never heard him utter a + harsh word about any human being. His good nature is as unfailing as the + air. His abilities are of the highest order. It is a positive pleasure to + meet him. He is so enthusiastic, so unselfish, so natural, so appreciative + of others, so thoughtful for the cause, and so careless of himself, that + he compels the admiration of every one who really loves the just and true. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Truth Seeker</i>, New York, September 5, 1885. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0055" id="link0055"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE PRESIDENT AND SENATE. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What have you to say with reference to the respective + attitudes of the President and Senate? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I don't think there is any doubt as to the right of the + Senate to call on the President for information. Of course that means for + what information he has. When a duty devolves upon two persons, one of + them has no right to withhold any facts calculated to throw any light on + the question that both are to decide. The President cannot appoint any + officer who has to be confirmed by the Senate; he can simply nominate. The + Senate cannot even suggest a name; it can only pass upon the person + nominated. If it is called upon for counsel and advice, how can it give + advice without knowing the facts and circumstances? The President must + have a reason for wishing to make a change. He should give that reason to + the Senate without waiting to be asked. He has assured the country that he + is a civil service reformer; that no man is to be turned out because he is + a Republican, and no man appointed because he is a Democrat. Now, the + Senate has given the President an opportunity to prove that he has acted + as he has talked. If the President feels that he is bound to carry out the + civil-service law, ought not the Senate to feel in the same way? Is it not + the duty of the Senate to see to it that the President does not, with its + advice and consent, violate the civil service law? Is the consent of the + Senate a mere matter of form? In these appointments the President is not + independent of or above the Senate; they are equal, and each has the right + to be "honor bright" with the other, at least. + </p> + <p> + As long as this foolish law is unrepealed it must be carried out. Neither + party is in favor of civil service reform, and never was. The Republican + party did not carry it out, and did not intend to. The President has the + right to nominate. Under the law as it is now, when the President wants to + appoint a clerk, or when one of his secretaries wants one, four names are + sent, and from these four names a choice has to be made. This is clearly + an invasion of the rights of the Executive. If they have the right to + compel the President to choose from four, why not from three, or two? Why + not name the one, and have done with it? The law is worse than + unconstitutional—it is absurd. + </p> + <p> + But in this contest the Senate, in my judgment, is right. In my opinion, + by the time Cleveland goes out most of the offices will be filled with + Democrats. If the Republicans succeed next time, I know, and everybody + knows, that they will never rest easy until they get the Democrats out. + They will shout "offensive partisanship." The truth is, the theory is + wrong. Every citizen should take an interest in politics. A good man + should not agree to keep silent just for the sake of an office. A man owes + his best thoughts to his country. If he ought to defend his country in + time of war, and under certain circumstances give his life for it, can we + say that in time of peace he is under no obligation to discharge what he + believes to be a duty, if he happens to hold an office? Must he sell his + birthright for the sake of being a doorkeeper? The whole doctrine is + absurd and never will be carried out. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think as to the presidential race? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. That is a good way off. I think the people can hardly be + roused to enthusiasm by the old names. Our party must take another step + forward. We cannot live on what we have done; we must seek power for the + sake, not of power, but for the accomplishment of a purpose. We must + reform the tariff. We must settle the question of silver. We must have + sense enough to know what the country needs, and courage enough to tell + it. By reforming the tariff, I mean protect that and that only that needs + protection— laws for the country and not for the few. We want honest + money; we want a dollar's worth of gold in a silver dollar, and a dollar's + worth of silver in a gold dollar. We want to make them of equal value. + Bi-metallism does not mean that eighty cents' worth of silver is worth one + hundred in gold. The Republican party must get back its conscience and be + guided by it in deciding the questions that arise. Great questions are + pressing for solution. Thousands of working people are in want. Business + is depressed. The future is filled with clouds. What does the Republican + party propose? Must we wait for mobs to inaugurate reform? Must we depend + on police or statesmen? Should we wait and crush by brute force or should + we prevent? + </p> + <p> + The toilers demand that eight hours should constitute a day's work. Upon + this question what does our party say? Labor saving machines ought to + lighten the burdens of the laborers. It will not do to say "over + production" and keep on inventing machines and refuse to shorten the + hours. What does our party say? The rich can take care of themselves if + the mob will let them alone, and there will be no mob if there is no + widespread want. Hunger is a communist. The next candidate of the + Republican party must be big enough and courageous enough to answer these + questions. If we find that kind of a candidate we shall succeed—if + we do not, we ought not. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Chicago Inter-Ocean</i>, February, 1886. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0056" id="link0056"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + ATHEISM AND CITIZENSHIP. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Have you noticed the decision of Mr. Nathaniel Jarvis, + Jr., clerk of the Naturalization Bureau of the Court of Common Pleas, that + an Atheist cannot become a citizen? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, but I do not think it necessary for a man to be a + theist in order to become or to remain a citizen of this country. The + various laws, from 1790 up to 1828, provided that the person wishing to be + naturalized might make oath or affirmation. The first exception you will + find in the Revised Statutes of the United States passed in 1873-74, + section 2,165, as follows:—"An alien may be admitted to become a + citizen of the United States in the following manner, and not otherwise:—First, + he shall declare on oath, before a Circuit or District Court of the United + States, etc." I suppose Mr. Jarvis felt it to be his duty to comply with + this section. In this section there is nothing about affirmation —only + the word "oath" is used—and Mr. Jarvis came to the conclusion that + an Atheist could not take an oath, and, therefore, could not declare his + intention legally to become a citizen of the United States. Undoubtedly + Mr. Jarvis felt it his duty to stand by the law and to see to it that + nobody should become a citizen of this country who had not a well defined + belief in the existence of a being that he could not define and that no + man has ever been able to define. In other words, that he should be + perfectly convinced that there is a being "without body, parts or + passions," who presides over the destinies of this world, and more + especially those of New York in and about that part known as City Hall + Park. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Was not Mr. Jarvis right in standing by the law? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. If Mr. Jarvis is right, neither Humboldt nor Darwin could + have become a citizen of the United States. Wagner, the greatest of + musicians, not being able to take an oath, would have been left an alien. + Under this ruling Haeckel, Spencer and Tyndall would be denied citizenship—that + is to say, the six greatest men produced by the human race in the + nineteenth century, were and are unfit to be citizens of the United + States. Those who have placed the human race in debt cannot be citizens of + the Republic. On the other hand, the ignorant wife beater, the criminal, + the pauper raised in the workhouse, could take the necessary oath and + would be welcomed by New York "with arms outstretched as she would fly." + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. You have quoted one statute. Is there no other applicable + to this case? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I am coming to that. If Mr. Jarvis will take the pains to + read not only the law of naturalization in section 2,165 of the Revised + Statutes of the United States, but the very first chapter in the book, + "Title I.," he will find in the very first section this sentence: "The + requirements of any 'oath' shall be deemed complied with by making + affirmation in official form." This applies to section 2,165. Of course an + Atheist can affirm, and the statute provides that wherever an oath is + required affirmation may be made. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Did you read the recent action of Judge O'Gorman, of the + Superior Court, in refusing naturalization papers to an applicant because + he had not read the Constitution of the United States? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I did. The United States Constitution is a very important + document, a good, sound document, but it is talked about a great deal more + than it is read. I'll venture that you may commence at the Battery to + interview merchants and other business men about the Constitution and you + will talk with a hundred before you will find one who has ever read it. + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York Herald</i>, August 8, 1886. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0057" id="link0057"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE LABOR QUESTION. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your remedy, Colonel, for the labor troubles of + the day? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. One remedy is this: I should like to see the laboring men + succeed. I should like to see them have a majority in Congress and with a + President of their own. I should like to see this so that they could + satisfy themselves how little, after all, can be accomplished by + legislation. The moment responsibility should touch their shoulders they + would become conservative. They would find that making a living in this + world is an individual affair, and that each man must look out for + himself. They would soon find that the Government cannot take care of the + people. The people must support the Government. Everything cannot be + regulated by law. The factors entering into this problem are substantially + infinite and beyond the intellectual grasp of any human being. Perhaps + nothing in the world will convince the laboring man how little can be + accomplished by law until there is opportunity of trying. To discuss the + question will do good, so I am in favor of its discussion. To give the + workingmen a trial will do good, so I am in favor of giving them a trial. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. But you have not answered my question: I asked you what + could be done, and you have told me what could not be done. Now, is there + not some better organization of society that will help in this trouble? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Undoubtedly. Unless humanity is a failure, society will + improve from year to year and from age to age. There will be, as the years + go by, less want, less injustice, and the gifts of nature will be more + equally divided, but there will never come a time when the weak can do as + much as the strong, or when the mentally weak can accomplish as much as + the intellectually strong. There will forever be inequality in society; + but, in my judgment, the time will come when an honest, industrious person + need not want. In my judgment, that will come, not through governmental + control, not through governmental slavery, not through what is called + Socialism, but through liberty and through individuality. I can conceive + of no greater slavery than to have everything done by the Government. I + want free scope given to individual effort. In time some things that + governments have done will be removed. The creation of a nobility, the + giving of vast rights to corporations, and the bestowment of privileges on + the few will be done away with. In other words, governmental interference + will cease and man will be left more to himself. The future will not do + away with want by charity, which generally creates more want than it + alleviates, but by justice and intelligence. Shakespeare says, "There is + no darkness but ignorance," and it might be added that ignorance is the + mother of most suffering. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Enquirer</i>, Cincinnati, Ohio, September 30, 1886. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0058" id="link0058"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + RAILROADS AND POLITICS. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. You are intimately acquainted with the great railroad + managers and the great railroad systems, and what do you think is the + great need of the railways to-day? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The great need of the railroads to-day is more business, + more cars, better equipments, better pay for the men and less gambling in + Wall Street. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is it your experience that public men usually ride on + passes? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, whenever they can get them. Passes are for the rich. + Only those are expected to pay who can scarcely afford it. Nothing + shortens a journey, nothing makes the road as smooth, nothing keeps down + the dust and keeps out the smoke like a pass. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Don't you think that the pass system is an injustice + —that is, that ordinary travelers are taxed for the man who rides on + a pass? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Certainly, those who pay, pay for those who do not. This is + one of the misfortunes of the obscure. It is so with everything. The big + fish live on the little ones. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are not parallel railroads an evil? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. No, unless they are too near together. Competition does + some good and some harm, but it must exist. All these things must be left + to take care of themselves. If the Government interferes it is at the + expense of the manhood and liberty of the people. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. But wouldn't it be better for the people if the railroads + were managed by the Government as is the Post-Office? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. No, everything that individual can do should be left to + them. If the Government takes charge of the people they become weak and + helpless. The people should take charge of the Government. Give the folks + a chance. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. In the next presidential contest what will be the main + issue? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The Maine issue! + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Would you again refuse to take the stump for Mr. Blaine + if he should be renominated, and if so, why? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not expect to take the stump for anybody. Mr. Blaine + is probably a candidate, and if he is nominated there will be plenty of + people on the stump—or fence—or up a tree or somewhere in the + woods. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What are the most glaring mistakes of Cleveland's + administration? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. First, accepting the nomination. Second, taking the oath of + office. Third, not resigning. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Times Star</i>, Cincinnati, September 30, 1886. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0059" id="link0059"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + PROHIBITION. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How much importance do you attach to the present + prohibition movement? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. No particular importance. I am opposed to prohibition and + always have been, and hope always to be. I do not want the Legislature to + interfere in these matters. I do not believe that the people can be made + temperate by law. Men and women are not made great and good by the law. + There is no good in the world that cannot be abused. Prohibition fills the + world with spies and tattlers, and, besides that, where a majority of the + people are not in favor of it the law will not be enforced; and where a + majority of the people are in favor of it there is not much need of the + law. Where a majority are against it, juries will violate their oath, and + witnesses will get around the truth, and the result is demoralization. + Take wine and malt liquors out of the world and we shall lose a vast deal + of good fellowship; the world would lose more than it would gain. There is + a certain sociability about wine that I should hate to have taken from the + earth. Strong liquors the folks had better let alone. If prohibition + succeeds, and wines and malt liquors go, the next thing will be to take + tobacco away, and the next thing all other pleasures, until prayer + meetings will be the only places of enjoyment. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you care to say who your choice is for Republican + nominee for President in 1888? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I now promise that I will answer this question either in + May or June, 1888. At present my choice is not fixed, and is liable to + change at any moment, and I need to leave it free, so that it can change + from time to time as the circumstances change. I will, however, tell you + privately that I think it will probably be a new man, somebody on whom the + Republicans can unite. I have made a good many inquiries myself to find + out who this man is to be, but in every instance the answer has been + determined by the location in which the gentleman lived who gave the + answer. Let us wait. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think the Republican party should take a decided + stand on the temperance issue? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do; and that decided stand should be that temperance is + an individual question, something with which the State and Nation have + nothing to do. Temperance is a thing that the law cannot control. You + might as well try to control music, painting, sculpture, or metaphysics, + as the question of temperance. As life becomes more valuable, people will + learn to take better care of it. There is something more to be desired + even than temperance, and that is liberty. I do not believe in putting out + the sun because weeds grow. I should rather have some weeds than go + without wheat and corn. The Republican party should represent liberty and + individuality; it should keep abreast of the real spirit of the age; the + Republican party ought to be intelligent enough to know that progress has + been marked not by the enactment of new laws, but by the repeal of old + ones. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Evening Traveler</i>, Boston, October, 1886. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0060" id="link0060"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + HENRY GEORGE AND LABOR. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. It is said, Colonel Ingersoll, that you are for Henry + George? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course; I think it the duty of the Republicans to defeat + the Democracy—a solemn duty—and I believe that they have a + chance to elect George; that is to say, an opportunity to take New York + from their old enemy. If the Republicans stand by George he will succeed. + All the Democratic factions are going to unite to beat the workingmen. + What a picture! Now is the time for the Republicans to show that all their + sympathies are not given to bankers, corporations and millionaires. They + were on the side of the slave—they gave liberty to millions. Let + them take another step and extend their hands to the sons of toil. + </p> + <p> + My heart beats with those who bear the burdens of this poor world. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you not think that capital is entitled to protection? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I am in favor of accomplishing all reforms in a legal and + orderly way, and I want the laboring people of this country to appeal to + the ballot. All classes and all interests must be content to abide the + result. + </p> + <p> + I want the laboring people to show that they are intelligent enough to + stand by each other. Henry George is their natural leader. Let them be + true to themselves by being true to him. The great questions between + capital and labor must be settled peaceably. There is no excuse for + violence, and no excuse for contempt and scorn. No country can be + prosperous while the workers want and the idlers waste. Those who do the + most should have the most. There is no civilized country, so far as I + know, but I believe there will be, and I want to hasten they day when the + map of the world will give the boundaries of that blessed land. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you agree with George's principles? Do you believe in + socialism? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not understand that George is a Socialist. He is on + the side of those that work—so am I. He wants to help those that + need help—so do I. The rich can take care of themselves. I shed no + tears over the miseries of capital. I think of the men in mines and + factories, in huts, hovels and cellars; of the poor sewing women; of the + poor, the hungry and the despairing. The world must be made better through + intelligence. I do not go with the destroyers, with those that hate the + successful, that hate the generous, simply because they are rich. Wealth + is the surplus produced by labor, and the wealth of the world should keep + the world from want. + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York Herald</i>, October 13, 1886. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0061" id="link0061"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + LABOR QUESTION AND SOCIALISM. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of Henry George for mayor? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Several objections have been urged, not to what Mr. George + has done, but to what Mr. George has thought, and he is the only candidate + up to this time against whom a charge of this character could be made. + Among other things, he seems to have entertained an idea to the effect + that a few men should not own the entire earth; that a child coming into + the world has a right to standing room, and that before he walks, his + mother has a right to standing room while she holds him. He insists that + if it were possible to bottle the air, and sell it as we do mineral water, + it would be hardly fair for the capitalists of the world to embark in such + a speculation, especially where millions were allowed to die simply + because they were not able to buy breath at "pool prices." Mr. George + seems to think that the time will come when capital will be intelligent + enough and civilized enough to take care of itself. He has a dream that + poverty and crime and all the evils that go hand in hand with partial + famine, with lack of labor, and all the diseases born of living in huts + and cellars, born of poor food and poor clothing and of bad habits, will + disappear, and that the world will be really fit to live in. He goes so + far as to insist that men ought to have more than twenty-three or + twenty-four dollars a month for digging coal, and that they ought not to + be compelled to spend that money in the store or saloon of the proprietor + of the mine. He has also stated on several occasions that a man ought not + to drive a street car for sixteen or eighteen hours a day—that even + a street-car driver ought to have the privilege now and then of seeing his + wife, or at least one of the children, awake. And he has gone so far as to + say that a letter-carrier ought not to work longer in each day for the + United States than he would for a civilized individual. + </p> + <p> + To people that imagine that this world is already perfection; that the + condition of no one should be bettered except their own, these ideas seem + dangerous. A man who has already amassed a million, and who has no fear + for the future, and who says: "I will employ the cheapest labor and make + men work as long as they can possibly endure the toil," will regard Mr. + George as an impractical man. It is very probable that all of us will be + dead before all the theories of Mr. George are put in practice. Some of + them, however, may at some time benefit mankind; and so far as I am + concerned, I am willing to help hasten the day, although it may not come + while I live. I do not know that I agree with many of the theories of Mr. + George. I know that I do not agree with some of them. But there is one + thing in which I do agree with him, and that is, in his effort to benefit + the human race, in his effort to do away with some of the evils that now + afflict mankind. I sympathize with him in his endeavor to shorten the + hours of labor, to increase the well- being of laboring men, to give them + better houses, better food, and in every way to lighten the burdens that + now bear upon their bowed backs. It may be that very little can be done by + law, except to see that they are not absolutely abused; to see that the + mines in which they work are supplied with air and with means of escape in + time of danger; to prevent the deforming of children by forcing upon them + the labor of men; to shorten the hours of toil, and to give all laborers + certain liens, above all other claims, for their work. It is easy to see + that in this direction something may be done by law. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Colonel Ingersoll, are you a Socialist? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I am an Individualist instead of a Socialist. I am a + believer in individuality and in each individual taking care of himself, + and I want the Government to do just as little as it can consistently with + the safety of the nation, and I want as little law as possible—only + as much as will protect life, reputation and property by punishing + criminals and by enforcing honest contracts. But if a government gives + privileges to a few, the few must not oppress the many. The Government has + no right to bestow any privilege upon any man or upon any corporation, + except for the public good. That which is a special privilege to the few, + should be a special benefit to the many. And whenever the privileged few + abuse the privilege so that it becomes a curse to the many, the privilege, + whatever it is, should be withdrawn. I do not pretend to know enough to + suggest a remedy for all the evils of society. I doubt if one human mind + could take into consideration the almost infinite number of factors + entering into such a problem. And this fact that no one knows, is the + excuse for trying. While I may not believe that a certain theory will + work, still, if I feel sure it will do no harm, I am willing to see it + tried. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think that Mr. George would make a good mayor? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I presume he would. He is a thoughtful, prudent man. His + reputation for honesty has never, so far as I know, been called in + question. It certainly does not take a genius to be mayor of New York. If + so, there have been some years when there was hardly a mayor. I take it + that a clear-headed, honest man, whose only object is to do his duty, and + with courage enough to stand by his conscience, would make a good mayor of + New York or of any other city. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are you in sympathy with the workingmen and their + objects? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I am in sympathy with laboring men of all kinds, whether + they labor with hand or brain. The Knights of Labor, I believe, do not + allow a lawyer to become a member. I am somewhat wider in my sympathies. + No men in the world struggle more heroically; no men in the world have + suffered more, or carried a heavier cross, or worn a sharper crown of + thorns, than those that have produced what we call the literature of our + race. So my sympathies extend all the way from hod-carriers to sculptors; + from well-diggers to astronomers. If the objects of the laboring men are + to improve their condition without injuring others; to have homes and + firesides, and wives and children; plenty to eat, good clothes to wear; to + develop their minds, to educate their children—in short, to become + prosperous and civilized, I sympathize with them, and hope they will + succeed. I have not the slightest sympathy with those that wish to + accomplish all these objects through brute force. A Nihilist may be + forgiven in Russia—may even be praised in Russia; a Socialist may be + forgiven in Germany; and certainly a Home-ruler can be pardoned in + Ireland, but in the United States there is no place for Anarchist, + Socialist or Dynamiter. In this country the political power has been + fairly divided. Poverty has just as many votes as wealth. No man can be so + poor as not to have a ballot; no man is rich enough to have two; and no + man can buy another vote, unless somebody is mean enough and contemptible + enough to sell; and if he does sell his vote, he never should complain + about the laws or their administration. So the foolish and the wise are on + an equality, and the political power of this country is divided so that + each man is a sovereign. + </p> + <p> + Now, the laboring people are largely in the majority in this country. If + there are any laws oppressing them, they should have them repealed. I want + the laboring people—and by the word "laboring" now, I include only + the men that they include by that word—to unite; I want them to show + that they have the intelligence to act together, and sense enough to vote + for a friend. I want them to convince both the other great parties that + they cannot be purchased. This will be an immense step in the right + direction. + </p> + <p> + I have sometimes thought that I should like to see the laboring men in + power, so that they would realize how little, after all, can be done by + law. All that any man should ask, so far as the Government is concerned, + is a fair chance to compete with his neighbors. Personally, I am for the + abolition of all special privileges that are not for the general good. My + principal hope of the future is the civilization of my race; the + development not only of the brain, but of the heart. I believe the time + will come when we shall stop raising failures, when we shall know + something of the laws governing human beings. I believe the time will come + when we shall not produce deformed persons, natural criminals. In other + words, I think the world is going to grow better and better. This may not + happen to this nation or to what we call our race, but it may happen to + some other race, and all that we do in the right direction hastens that + day and that race. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think that the old parties are about to die? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It is very hard to say. The country is not old enough for + tables of mortality to have been calculated upon parties. I suppose a + party, like anything else, has a period of youth, of manhood and decay. + The Democratic party is not dead. Some men grow physically strong as they + grow mentally weak. The Democratic party lived out of office, and in + disgrace, for twenty-five years, and lived to elect a President. If the + Democratic party could live on disgrace for twenty-five years it now looks + as though the Republican party, on the memory of its glory and of its + wonderful and unparalleled achievements, might manage to creep along for a + few years more. + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York World</i>, October 26, 1886. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0062" id="link0062"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + HENRY GEORGE AND SOCIALISM. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of the result of the election? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I find many dead on the field whose faces I recognize. I + see that Morrison has taken a "horizontal" position. Free trade seems to + have received an exceedingly black eye. Carlisle, in my judgment, one of + the very best men in Congress, has been defeated simply because he is a + free trader, and I suppose you can account for Hurd's defeat in the same + way. The people believe in protection although they generally admit that + the tariff ought to be reformed. I believe in protecting "infant + industries," but I do not believe in rocking the cradle when the infant is + seven feet high and wears number twelve boots. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you sympathize with the Socialists, or do you think + that the success of George would promote socialism? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have said frequently that if I lived in Russia I should + in all probability be a Nihilist. I can conceive of no government that + would not be as good as that of Russia, and I would consider <i>no</i> + government far preferable to that government. Any possible state of + anarchy is better than organized crime, because in the chaos of anarchy + justice may be done by accident, but in a government organized for the + perpetuation of slavery, and for the purpose of crushing out of the human + brain every noble thought, justice does not live. In Germany I would + probably be a Socialist—to this extent, that I would want the + political power honestly divided among the people. I can conceive of no + circumstance in which I could support Bismarck. I regard Bismarck as a + projection of the Middle Ages, as a shadow that has been thrown across the + sunlight of modern civilization, and in that shadow grow all the bloodless + crimes. Now, in Ireland, of course, I believe in home rule. In this + country I am an Individualist. The political power here is equally + divided. Poverty and wealth have the same power at the ballot-box. + Intelligence and ignorance are on an equality here, simply because all men + have a certain interest in the government where they live. I hate above + all other things the tyranny of a government. I do not want a government + to send a policeman along with me to keep me from buying eleven eggs for a + dozen. I will take care of myself. I want the people to do everything they + can do, and the Government to keep its hands off, because if the + Government attends to all these matters the people lose manhood, and in a + little while become serfs, and there will arise some strong mind and some + powerful hand that will reduce them to actual slavery. So I am in favor or + personal liberty to the largest extent. Whenever the Government grants + privileges to the few, these privileges should be for the benefit of the + many, and when they cease to be for the benefit of the many, they should + be taken from the few and used by the government itself for the benefit of + the whole people. And I want to see in this country the Government so + administered that justice will be done to all as nearly as human + institutions can produce such a result. Now, I understand that in any + state of society there will be failures. We have failures among the + working people. We have had some failures in Congress. I will not mention + the names, because your space is limited. There have been failures in the + pulpit, at the bar; in fact, in every pursuit of life you will presume we + shall have failures with us for a great while; at least until the + establishment of the religion of the body, when we shall cease to produce + failures; and I have faith enough in the human race to believe that that + time will come, but I do not expect it during my life. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the income tax as a step toward the + accomplishment of what you desire? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. There are some objections to an income tax. First, the + espionage that it produces on the part of the Government. Second, the + amount of perjury that it annually produces. Men hate to have their + business inquired into if they are not doing well. They often pay a very + large tax to make their creditors think they are prosperous. Others by + covering up, avoid the tax. But I will say this with regard to taxation: + The great desideratum is stability. If we tax only the land, and that were + the only tax, in a little while every other thing, and the value of every + other thing, would adjust itself in relation to that tax, and perfect + justice would be the result. That is to say, if it were stable long enough + the burden would finally fall upon the right backs in every department. + The trouble with taxation is that it is continually changing—not + waiting for the adjustment that will naturally follow provided it is + stable. I think the end, so far as land is concerned, could be reached by + cumulative taxation—that is to say, a man with a certain amount of + land paying a very small per cent., with more land, and increased per + cent., and let that per cent. increase rapidly enough so that no man could + afford to hold land that he did not have a use for. So I believe in + cumulative taxation in regard to any kind of wealth. Let a man worth ten + million dollars pay a greater per cent. than one worth one hundred + thousand, because he is able to pay it. The other day a man was talking to + me about having the dead pay the expenses of the Government; that whenever + a man died worth say five million dollars, one million should go to the + Government; that if he died worth ten million dollars, three millions + should go to the Government; if he died worth twenty million dollars, + eight million should go to the Government, and so on. He said that in this + way the expenses of the Government could be borne by the dead. I should be + in favor of cumulative taxation upon legacies— the greater the + legacy, the greater the per cent. of taxation. + </p> + <p> + But, of course, I am not foolish enough to suppose that I understand these + questions. I am giving you a few guesses. My only desire is to guess + right. I want to see the people of this world live for this world, and I + hope the time will come when a civilized man will understand that he + cannot be perfectly happy while anybody else is miserable; that a + perfectly civilized man could not enjoy a dinner knowing that others were + starving; that he could not enjoy the richest robes if he knew that some + of his fellow-men in rags and tatters were shivering in the blast. In + other words, I want to carry out the idea there that I have so frequently + uttered with regard to the other world; that is, that no gentleman angel + could be perfectly happy knowing that somebody else was in hell. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What are the chances for the Republican party in 1888? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. If it will sympathize with the toilers, as it did with the + slaves; if it will side with the needy; if it will only take the right + side it will elect the next President. The poor should not resort to + violence; the rich should appeal to the intelligence of the working + people. These questions cannot be settled by envy and scorn. The motto of + both parties should be: "Come, let us reason together." The Republican + party was the grandest organization that ever existed. It was brave, + intelligent and just. It sincerely loved the right. A certificate of + membership was a patent of nobility. If it will only stand by the right + again, its victorious banner will float over all the intelligent sons of + toil. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Times</i>, Chicago, Illinois, November 4, 1886. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0063" id="link0063"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + REPLY TO THE REV. B. F. MORSE.* + </h2> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + [* At the usual weekly meeting of the Baptist ministers at + the Publication Rooms yesterday, the Rev. Dr. B. F. Morse + read an essay on "Christianity vs. Materialism." His + contention was that all nature showed that design, not + evolution, was its origin. + + In his concluding remarks Dr. Morse said that he knew from + unquestionable authority, that Robert G. Ingersoll did not + believe what he uttered in his lectures, and that to get out + of a financial embarrassment he looked around for a money + making scheme that could be put into immediate execution. + To lecture against Christianity was the most rapid way of + giving him the needed cash and, what was quite as acceptable + to him, at the same time, notoriety.] +</pre> + <p> + This aquatic or web-footed theologian who expects to go to heaven by + diving is not worth answering. Nothing can be more idiotic than to answer + an argument by saying he who makes it does not believe it. Belief has + nothing to do with the cogency or worth of an argument. There is another + thing. This man, or rather this minister, says that I attacked + Christianity simply to make money. Is it possible that, after preachers + have had the field for eighteen hundred years, the way to make money is to + attack the clergy? Is this intended as a slander against me or the + ministers? + </p> + <p> + The trouble is that my arguments cannot be answered. All the preachers in + the world cannot prove that slavery is better than liberty. They cannot + show that all have not an equal right to think. They cannot show that all + have not an equal right to express their thoughts. They cannot show that a + decent God will punish a decent man for making the best guess he can. This + is all there is about it. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Herald</i>, New York, December 14, 1886. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0064" id="link0064"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + INGERSOLL ON McGLYNN. + </h2> + <p> + The attitude of the Roman Catholic Church in Dr. McGlynn's case is + consistent with the history and constitution of the Catholic Church + —perfectly consistent with its ends, its objects, and its means— + and just as perfectly inconsistent with intellectual liberty and the real + civilization of the human race. + </p> + <p> + When a man becomes a Catholic priest, he has been convinced that he ought + not to think for himself upon religious questions. He has become convinced + that the church is the only teacher—that he has a right to think + only to enforce its teachings. From that moment he is a moral machine. The + chief engineer resides at Rome, and he gives his orders through certain + assistant engineers until the one is reached who turns the crank, and the + machine has nothing to do one way or the other. This machine is paid for + giving up his liberty by having machines under him who have also given up + theirs. While somebody else turns his crank, he has the pleasure of + turning a crank belonging to somebody below him. + </p> + <p> + Of course, the Catholic Church is supposed to be the only perfect + institution on earth. All others are not only imperfect, but unnecessary. + All others have been made either by man, or by the Devil, or by a + partnership, and consequently cannot be depended upon for the civilization + of man. + </p> + <p> + The Catholic Church gets its power directly from God, and is the only + institution now in the world founded by God. There was never any other, so + far as I know, except polygamy and slavery and a crude kind of monarchy, + and they have been, for the most part, abolished. + </p> + <p> + The Catholic Church must be true to itself. It must claim everything, and + get what it can. It alone is infallible. It alone has all the wisdom of + this world. It alone has the right to exist. All other interests are + secondary. To be a Catholic is of the first importance. Human liberty is + nothing. Wealth, position, food, clothing, reputation, happiness—all + these are less than worthless compared with what the Catholic Church + promises to the man who will throw all these away. + </p> + <p> + A priest must preach what his bishop tells him. A bishop must preach what + his archbishop tells him. The pope must preach what he says God tells him. + </p> + <p> + Dr. McGlynn cannot make a compromise with the Catholic Church. It never + compromises when it is in the majority. + </p> + <p> + I do not mean by this that the Catholic Church is worse than any other. + All are alike in this regard. Every sect, no matter how insignificant; + every church, no matter how powerful, asks precisely the same thing from + every member—that is to say, a surrender of intellectual freedom. + The Catholic Church wants the same as the Baptist, the Presbyterian, and + the Methodist—it wants the whole earth. It is ambitious to be the + one supreme power. It hopes to see the world upon its knees, with all its + tongues thrust out for wafers. It has the arrogance of humility and the + ferocity of universal forgiveness. In this respect it resembles every + other sect. Every religion is a system of slavery. + </p> + <p> + Of course, the religionists say that they do not believe in persecution; + that they do not believe in burning and hanging and whipping or loading + with chains a man simply because he is an Infidel. They are willing to + leave all this with God, knowing that a being of infinite goodness will + inflict all these horrors and tortures upon an honest man who differs with + the church. + </p> + <p> + In case Dr. McGlynn is deprived of his priestly functions, it is hard to + say what effect it will have upon his church and the labor party in the + country. + </p> + <p> + So long as a man believes that a church has eternal joy in store for him, + so long as he believes that a church holds within its hand the keys of + heaven and hell, it will be hard to make him trade off the hope of + everlasting happiness for a few good clothes and a little good food and + higher wages here. He finally thinks that, after all, he had better work + for less and go a little hungry, and be an angel forever. + </p> + <p> + I hope, however, that a good many people who have been supporting the + Catholic Church by giving tithes of the wages of weariness will see, and + clearly see, that Catholicism is not their friend; that the church cannot + and will not support them; that, on the contrary, they must support the + church. I hope they will see that all the prayers have to be paid for, + although not one has ever been answered. I hope they will perceive that + the church is on the side of wealth and power, that the mitre is the + friend of the crown, that the altar is the sworn brother of the throne. I + hope they will finally know that the church cares infinitely more for the + money of the millionaire than for the souls of the poor. + </p> + <p> + Of course, there are thousands of individual exceptions. I am speaking of + the church as an institution, as a corporation—and when I say the + church, I include all churches. It is said of corporations in general, + that they have no soul, and it may truthfully be said of the church that + it has less than any other. It lives on alms. It gives nothing for what it + gets. It has no sympathy. Beggars never weep over the misfortunes of other + beggars. + </p> + <p> + Nothing could give me more pleasure than to see the Catholic Church on the + side of human freedom; nothing more pleasure than to see the Catholics of + the world—those who work and weep and toil— sensible enough to + know that all the money paid for superstition is worse than lost. I wish + they could see that the counting of beads, and the saying of prayers and + celebrating of masses, and all the kneelings and censer-swingings and + fastings and bell-ringing, amount to less than nothing—that all + these things tend only to the degradation of mankind. It is hard, I know, + to find an antidote for a poison that was mingled with a mother's milk. + </p> + <p> + The laboring masses, so far as the Catholics are concerned, are filled + with awe and wonder and fear about the church. This fear began to grow + while they were being rocked in their cradles, and they still imagine that + the church has some mysterious power; that it is in direct communication + with some infinite personality that could, if it desired, strike then + dead, or damn their souls forever. Persons who have no such belief, who + care nothing for popes or priests or churches or heavens or hells or + devils or gods, have very little idea of the power of fear. + </p> + <p> + The old dogmas filled the brain with strange monsters. The soul of the + orthodox Christian gropes and wanders and crawls in a kind of dungeon, + where the strained eyes see fearful shapes, and the frightened flesh + shrinks from the touch of serpents. + </p> + <p> + The good part of Christianity—that is to say, kindness, morality + —will never go down. The cruel part ought to go down. And by the + cruel part I mean the doctrine of eternal punishment—of allowing the + good to suffer for the bad—allowing innocence to pay the debt of + guilt. So the foolish part of Christianity—that is to say, the + miraculous—will go down. The absurd part must perish. But there will + be no war about it as there was in France. Nobody believes enough in the + foolish part of Christianity now to fight for it. Nobody believes with + intensity enough in miracles to shoulder a musket. There is probably not a + Christian in New York willing to fight for any story, no matter if the + story is so old that it is covered with moss. No mentally brave and + intelligent man believes in miracles, and no intelligent man cares whether + there was a miracle or not, for the reason that every intelligent man + knows that the miraculous has no possible connection with the moral. "Thou + shalt not steal," is just as good a commandment if it should turn out that + the flood was a drouth. "Thou shalt not murder," is a good and just and + righteous law, and whether any particular miracle was ever performed or + not has nothing to do with the case. There is no possible relation between + these things. + </p> + <p> + I am on the side not only of the physically oppressed, but of the mentally + oppressed. I hate those who put lashes on the body, and I despise those + who put the soul in chains. In other words, I am in favor of liberty. I do + not wish that any man should be the slave of his fellow-men, or that the + human race should be the slaves of any god, real or imaginary. Man has the + right to think for himself, to work for himself, to take care of himself, + to get bread for himself, to get a home for himself. He has a right to his + own opinion about God, and heaven and hell; the right to learn any art or + mystery or trade; the right to work for whom he will, for what he will, + and when he will. + </p> + <p> + The world belongs to the human race. There is to be no war in this country + on religious opinions, except a war of words—a conflict of thoughts, + of facts; and in that conflict the hosts of superstition will go down. + They may not be defeated to-day, or to-morrow, or next year, or during + this century, but they are growing weaker day by day. + </p> + <p> + This priest, McGlynn, has the courage to stand up against the propaganda. + What would have been his fate a few years ago? What would have happened to + him in Spain, in Portugal, in Italy—in any other country that was + Catholic—only a few years ago? Yet he stands here in New York, he + refuses to obey God's vicegerent; he freely gives his mind to an + archbishop; he holds the holy Inquisition in contempt. He has done a great + thing. He is undoubtedly an honest man. He never should have been a + Catholic. He has no business in that church. He has ideas of his own—theories, + and seems to be governed by principles. The Catholic Church is not his + place. If he remains, he must submit, he must kneel in the humility of + abjectness; he must receive on the back of his independence the lashes of + the church. If he remains, he must ask the forgiveness of slaves for + having been a man. If he refuses to submit, the church will not have him. + He will be driven to take his choice— to remain a member, + humiliated, shunned, or go out into the great, free world a citizen of the + Republic, with the rights, responsibilities, and duties of an American + citizen. + </p> + <p> + I believe that Dr. McGlynn is an honest man, and that he really believes + in the land theories of Mr. George. I have no confidence in his theories, + but I have confidence that he is actuated by the best and noblest motives. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are you to go on the lecture platform again? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I expect to after a while. I am now waiting for the church + to catch up. I got so far ahead that I began almost to sympathize with the + clergy. They looked so helpless and talked in such a weak, wandering, and + wobbling kind of way that I felt as though I had been cruel. From the + papers I see that they are busy trying to find out who the wife of Cain + was. I see that the Rev. Dr. Robinson, of New York, is now wrestling with + that problem. He begins to be in doubt whether Adam was the first man, + whether Eve was the first woman; suspects that there were other races, and + that Cain did not marry his sister, but somebody else's sister, and that + the somebody else was not Cain's brother. One can hardly over- estimate + the importance of these questions, they have such a direct bearing on the + progress of the world. If it should turn out that Adam was the first man, + or that he was not the first man, something might happen—I am not + prepared to say what, but it might. + </p> + <p> + It is a curious kind of a spectacle to see a few hundred people paying a + few thousand dollars a year for the purpose of hearing these great + problems discussed: "Was Adam the first man?" "Who was Cain's wife?" "Has + anyone seen a map of the land of Nod?" "Where are the four rivers that ran + murmuring through the groves of Paradise?" "Who was the snake? How did he + walk? What language did he speak?" This turns a church into a kind of + nursery, makes a cradle of each pew, and gives to each member a rattle + with which he can amuse what he calls his mind. + </p> + <p> + The great theologians of Andover—the gentlemen who wear the brass + collars furnished by the dead founder—have been disputing among + themselves as to what is to become of the heathen who fortunately died + before meeting any missionary from that institution. One can almost afford + to be damned hereafter for the sake of avoiding the dogmas of Andover + here. Nothing more absurd and childish has ever happened—not in the + intellectual, but in the theological world. + </p> + <p> + There is no need of the Freethinkers saying anything at present. The work + is being done by the church members themselves. They are beginning to ask + questions of the clergy. They are getting tired of the old ideas—tired + of the consolations of eternal pain—tired of hearing about hell—tired + of hearing the Bible quoted or talked about—tired of the scheme of + redemption—tired of the Trinity, of the plenary inspiration of the + barbarous records of a barbarous people—tired of the patriarchs and + prophets—tired of Daniel and the goats with three horns, and the + image with the clay feet, and the little stone that rolled down the hill—tired + of the mud man and the rib woman—tired of the flood of Noah, of the + astronomy of Joshua, the geology of Moses—tired of Kings and + Chronicles and Lamentations—tired of the lachrymose Jeremiah—tired + of the monstrous, the malicious, and the miraculous. In short, they are + beginning to think. They have bowed their necks to the yoke of ignorance + and fear and impudence and superstition, until they are weary. They long + to be free. They are tired of the services— tired of the meaningless + prayers—tired of hearing each other say, "Hear us, good Lord"—tired + of the texts, tired of the sermons, tired of the lies about spontaneous + combustion as a punishment for blasphemy, tired of the bells, and they + long to hear the doxology of superstition. They long to have Common Sense + lift its hands in benediction and dismiss the congregation. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Brooklyn Citizen</i>, April, 1886. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0065" id="link0065"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + TRIAL OF THE CHICAGO ANARCHISTS. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the trial of the Chicago Anarchists + and their chances for a new trial? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have paid some attention to the evidence and to the + rulings of the court, and I have read the opinion of the Supreme Court of + Illinois, in which the conviction is affirmed. Of course these men were + tried during a period of great excitement—tried when the press + demanded their conviction—when it was asserted that society was on + the edge of destruction unless these men were hanged. Under such + circumstances, it is not easy to have a fair and impartial trial. A judge + should either sit beyond the reach of prejudice, in some calm that storms + cannot invade, or he should be a kind of oak that before any blast he + would stand erect. It is hard to find such a place as I have suggested and + not easy to find such a man. We are all influenced more or less by our + surroundings, by the demands and opinions and feelings and prejudices of + our fellow- citizens. There is a personality made up of many individuals + known as society. This personality has prejudices like an individual. It + often becomes enraged, acts without the slightest sense, and repents at + its leisure. It is hard to reason with a mob whether organized or + disorganized, whether acting in the name of the law or of simple brute + force. But in any case, where people refuse to be governed by reason, they + become a mob. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you not think that these men had a fair trial? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have no doubt that the court endeavored to be fair— + no doubt that Judge Gary is a perfectly honest, upright man, but I think + his instructions were wrong. He instructed the jury to the effect that + where men have talked in a certain way, and where the jury believed that + the result of such talk might be the commission of a crime, that such men + are responsible for that crime. Of course, there is neither law nor sense + in an instruction like this. I hold that it must have been the intention + of the man making the remark, or publishing the article, or doing the + thing—it must have been his intention that the crime should be + committed. Men differ as to the effect of words, and a man may say a thing + with the best intentions the result of which is a crime, and he may say a + thing with the worst of intentions and the result may not be a crime. The + Supreme Court of Illinois seemed to have admitted that the instructions + were wrong, but took the ground that it made no difference with the + verdict. This is a dangerous course for the court of last resort to + pursue; neither is it very complimentary to the judge who tried the case, + that his instructions had no effect upon the jury. Under the instructions + of the court below, any man who had been arrested with the seven + Anarchists and of whom it could be proved that he had ever said a word in + favor of any change in government, or of other peculiar ideas, no matter + whether he knew of the meeting at the Haymarket or not, would have been + convicted. + </p> + <p> + I am satisfied that the defendant Fielden never intended to harm a human + being. As a matter of fact, the evidence shows that he was making a speech + in favor of peace at the time of the occurrence. The evidence also shows + that he was an exceedingly honest, industrious, and a very poor and + philanthropic man. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you uphold the Anarchists? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Certainly not. There is no place in this country for the + Anarchist. The source of power here is the people, and to attack the + political power is to attack the people. If the laws are oppressive, it is + the fault of the oppressed. If the laws touch the poor and leave them + without redress, it is the fault of the poor. They are in a majority. The + men who work for their living are the very men who have the power to make + every law that is made in the United States. There is no excuse for any + resort to violence in this country. The boycotting by trades unions and by + labor organizations is all wrong. Let them resort to legal methods and to + no other. I have not the slightest sympathy with the methods that have + been pursued by Anarchists, or by Socialists, or by any other class that + has resorted to force or intimidation. The ballot-box is the place to + assemble. The will of the people can be made known in that way, and their + will can be executed. At the same time, I think I understand what has + produced the Anarchist, the Socialist, and the agitator. In the old + country, a laboring man, poorly clad, without quite enough to eat, with a + wife in rags, with a few children asking for bread—this laboring man + sees the idle enjoying every luxury of this life; he sees on the breast of + "my lady" a bonfire of diamonds; he sees "my lord" riding in his park; he + sees thousands of people who from the cradle to the grave do no useful + act; add nothing to the intellectual or the physical wealth of the world; + he sees labor living in the tenement house, in the hut; idleness and + nobility in the mansion and the palace; the poor man a trespasser + everywhere except upon the street, where he is told to "move on," and in + the dusty highways of the country. That man naturally hates the government—the + government of the few, the government that lives on the unpaid labor of + the many, the government that takes the child from the parents, and puts + him in the army to fight the child of another poor man and woman in some + other country. These Anarchists, these Socialists, these agitators, have + been naturally produced. All the things of which I have spoken sow in the + breast of poverty the seeds of hatred and revolution. These poor men, + hunted by the officers of the law, cornered, captured, imprisoned, excite + the sympathy of other poor men, and if some are dragged to the gallows and + hanged, or beheaded by the guillotine, they become saints and martyrs, and + those who sympathize with them feel that they have the power, and only the + power of hatred—the power of riot, of destruction—the power of + the torch, of revolution, that is to say, of chaos and anarchy. The + injustice of the higher classes makes the lower criminal. Then there is + another thing. The misery of the poor excites in many noble breasts + sympathy, and the men who thus sympathize wish to better the condition of + their fellows. At first they depend upon reason, upon calling the + attention of the educated and powerful to the miseries of the poor. + Nothing happens, no result follows. The Juggernaut of society moves on, + and the wretches are still crushed beneath the great wheels. These men who + are really good at first, filled with sympathy, now become indignant—they + are malicious, then destructive and criminal. I do not sympathize with + these methods, but I do sympathize with the general object that all good + and generous people seek to accomplish—namely, to better the + condition of the human race. Only the other day, in Boston, I said that we + ought to take into consideration the circumstances under which the + Anarchists were reared; that we ought to know that every man is + necessarily produced; that man is what he is, not by accident, but + necessity; that society raises its own criminals—that it plows the + soil and cultivates and harvests the crop. And it was telegraphed that I + had defended anarchy. Nothing was ever further from my mind. There is no + place, as I said before, for anarchy in the United States. In Russia it is + another question; in Germany another question. Every country that is + governed by the one man, or governed by the few, is the victim of anarchy. + That <i>is</i> anarchy. That is the worst possible form of socialism. The + definition of socialism given by its bitterest enemy is, that idlers wish + to live on the labor and on the money of others. Is not this definition—a + definition given in hatred—a perfect definition of every monarchy + and of nearly every government in the world? That is to say: The idle few + live on the labor and the money of others. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Will the Supreme Court take cognizance of this case and + prevent the execution of the judgment? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course it is impossible for me to say. At the same time, + judging from the action of Justice Miller in the case of <i>The People vs. + Maxwell</i>, it seems probable that the Supreme Court may interfere, but I + have not examined the question sufficiently to form an opinion. My feeling + about the whole matter is this: That it will not tend to answer the ideas + advanced by these men, to hang them. Their execution will excite sympathy + among thousands and thousands of people who have never examined and knew + nothing of the theories advanced by the Anarchists, or the Socialists, or + other agitators. In my judgment, supposing the men to be guilty, it is far + better to imprison them. Less harm will be done the cause of free + government. We are not on the edge of any revolution. No other government + is as firmly fixed as ours. No other government has such a broad and + splendid foundation. We have nothing to fear. Courage and safety can + afford to be generous—can afford to act without haste and without + the feeling of revenge. So, for my part, I hope that the sentence may be + commuted, and that these men, if found guilty at last, may be imprisoned. + This course is, in my judgment, the safest to pursue. It may be that I am + led to this conclusion, because of my belief that every man does as he + must. This belief makes me charitable toward all the world. This belief + makes me doubt the wisdom of revenge. This belief, so far as I am + concerned, blots from our language the word "punishment." Society has a + right to protect itself, and it is the duty of society to reform, in so + far as it may be possible, any member who has committed what is called a + crime. Where the criminal cannot be reformed, and the safety of society + can be secured by his imprisonment, there is no possible excuse for + destroying his life. After these six or seven men have been, in accordance + with the forms of law, strangled to death, there will be a few pieces of + clay, and about them will gather a few friends, a few admirers—and + these pieces will be buried, and over the grave will be erected a + monument, and those who were executed as criminals will be regarded by + thousands as saints. It is far better for society to have a little mercy. + The effect upon the community will be good. If these men are imprisoned, + people will examine their teachings without prejudice. If they are + executed, seen through the tears of pity, their virtues, their sufferings, + their heroism, will be exaggerated; others may emulate their deeds, and + the gulf between the rich and the poor will be widened—a gulf that + may not close until it has devoured the noblest and the best. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Mail and Express</i>, New York, November 3, 1887. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0066" id="link0066"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE STAGE AND THE PULPIT. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the Methodist minister at Nashville, + Tenn., who, from his pulpit, denounced the theatrical profession, without + exception, as vicious, and of the congregation which passed resolutions + condemning Miss Emma Abbott for rising in church and contradicting him, + and of the Methodist bishop who likened her to a "painted courtesan," and + invoked the aid of the law "for the protection of public worship" against + "strolling players"? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The Methodist minister of whom you speak, without doubt + uttered his real sentiments. The church has always regarded the stage as a + rival, and all its utterances have been as malicious as untrue. It has + always felt that the money given to the stage was in some way taken from + the pulpit. It is on this principle that the pulpit wishes everything, + except the church, shut up on Sunday. It knows that it cannot stand free + and open competition. + </p> + <p> + All well-educated ministers know that the Bible suffers by a comparison + with Shakespeare. They know that there is nothing within the lids of what + they call "the sacred book" that can for one moment stand side by side + with "Lear" or "Hamlet" or "Julius Cæsar" or "Antony and Cleopatra" + or with any other play written by the immortal man. They know what a poor + figure the Davids and the Abrahams and the Jeremiahs and the Lots, the + Jonahs, the Jobs and the Noahs cut when on the stage with the great + characters of Shakespeare. For these reasons, among others, the pulpit is + malicious and hateful when it thinks of the glories of the stage. What + minister is there now living who could command the prices commanded by + Edwin Booth or Joseph Jefferson; and what two clergymen, by making a + combination, could contend successfully with Robson and Crane? How many + clergymen would it take to command, at regular prices, the audiences that + attend the presentation of Wagner's operas? + </p> + <p> + It is very easy to see why the pulpit attacks the stage. Nothing could + have been in more wretched taste than for the minister to condemn Miss + Emma Abbott for rising in church and defending not only herself, but other + good women who are doing honest work for an honest living. Of course, no + minister wishes to be answered; no minister wishes to have anyone in the + congregation call for the proof. A few questions would break up all the + theology in the world. Ministers can succeed only when congregations keep + silent. When superstition succeeds, doubt must be dumb. + </p> + <p> + The Methodist bishop who attacked Miss Abbott simply repeated the language + of several centuries ago. In the laws of England actors were described as + "sturdy vagrants," and this bishop calls them "strolling players." If we + only had some strolling preachers like Garrick, like Edwin Forrest, or + Booth or Barrett, or some crusade sisters like Mrs. Siddons, Madam + Ristori, Charlotte Cushman, or Madam Modjeska, how fortunate the church + would be! + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of the relative merits of the pulpit + and the stage, preachers and actors? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. We must remember that the stage presents an ideal life. It + is a world controlled by the imagination—a world in which the + justice delayed in real life may be done, and in which that may happen + which, according to the highest ideal, should happen. It is a world, for + the most part, in which evil does not succeed, in which the vicious are + foiled, in which the right, the honest, the sincere, and the good prevail. + It cultivates the imagination, and in this respect is far better than the + pulpit. The mission of the pulpit is to narrow and shrivel the human mind. + The pulpit denounces the freedom of thought and of expression; but on the + stage the mind is free, and for thousands of years the poor, the + oppressed, the enslaved, have been permitted to witness plays wherein the + slave was freed, wherein the oppressed became the victor, and where the + downtrodden rose supreme. + </p> + <p> + And there is another thing. The stage has always laughed at the spirit of + caste. The low-born lass has loved the prince. All human distinctions in + this ideal world have for the moment vanished, while honesty and love have + triumphed. The stage lightens the cares of life. The pulpit increases the + tears and groans of man. There is this difference: The pretence of honesty + and the honesty of pretence. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How do you view the Episcopalian scheme of building a + six-million-dollar untaxed cathedral in this city for the purpose of + "uniting the sects," and, when that is accomplished, "unifying the world + in the love of Christ," and thereby abolishing misery? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I regard the building of an Episcopal cathedral simply as a + piece of religious folly. The world will never be converted by Christian + palaces and temples. Every dollar used in its construction will be wasted. + It will have no tendency to unite the various sects; on the contrary, it + will excite the envy and jealousy of every other sect. It will widen the + gulf between the Episcopalian and the Methodist, between the Episcopalian + and the Presbyterian, and this hatred will continue until the other sects + build a cathedral just a little larger, and then the envy and the hatred + will be on the other side. + </p> + <p> + Religion will never unify the world, and never will give peace to mankind. + There has been more war in the last eighteen hundred years than during any + similar period within historic times. War will be abolished, if it ever is + abolished, not by religion, but by intelligence. It will be abolished when + the poor people of Germany, of France, of Spain, of England, and other + countries find that they have no interest in war. When those who pay, and + those who do the fighting, find that they are simply destroying their own + interests, wars will cease. + </p> + <p> + There ought to be a national court to decide national difficulties. We + consider a community civilized when the individuals of that community + submit their differences to a legal tribunal; but there being no national + court, nations now sustain, as to each other, the relation of savages—that + is to say, each one must defend its rights by brute force. The + establishment of a national court civilizes nations, and tends to do away + with war. + </p> + <p> + Christianity caused so much war, so much bloodshed, that Christians were + forced to interpolate a passage to account for their history, and the + interpolated passage is, "I came not to bring peace, but a sword." Suppose + that all the money wasted in cathedrals in the Middle Ages had been used + for the construction of schoolhouses, academies, and universities, how + much better the world would have been! Suppose that instead of supporting + hundreds of thousands of idle priests, the money had been given to men of + science, for the purpose of finding out something of benefit to the human + race here in this world. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of "Christian charity" and the + "fatherhood of God" as an economic polity for abolishing poverty and + misery? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course, the world is not to be civilized and clothed and + fed through charity. Ordinary charity creates more want than it + alleviates. The greatest possible charity is the greatest possible + justice. When proper wages are paid, when every one is as willing to give + what a thing is worth as he is now willing to get it for less, the world + will be fed and clothed. + </p> + <p> + I believe in helping people to help themselves. I believe that + corporations, and successful men, and superior men intellectually, should + do all within their power to keep from robbing their fellow- men. The + superior man should protect the inferior. The powerful should be the + shield of the weak. To-day it is, for the most part, exactly the other + way. The failures among men become the food of success. + </p> + <p> + The world is to grow better and better through intelligence, through a + development of the brain, through taking advantage of the forces of + nature, through science, through chemistry, and through the arts. Religion + can do nothing except to sow the seeds of discord between men and nations. + Commerce, manufactures, and the arts tend to peace and the well-being of + the world. What is known as religion —that is to say, a system by + which this world is wasted in preparation for another—a system in + which the duties of men are greater to God than to his fellow-men—a + system that denies the liberty of thought and expression—tends only + to discord and retrogression. Of course, I know that religious people + cling to the Bible on account of the good that is in it, and in spite of + the bad, and I know that Freethinkers throw away the Bible on account of + the bad that is in it, in spite of the good. I hope the time will come + when that book will be treated like other books, and will be judged upon + its merits, apart from the fiction of inspiration. The church has no right + to speak of charity, because it is an object of charity itself. It gives + nothing; all it can do is to receive. At best, it is only a respectable + beggar. I never care to hear one who receives alms pay a tribute to + charity. The one who gives alms should pay this tribute. The amount of + money expended upon churches and priests and all the paraphernalia of + superstition, is more than enough to drive the wolves from the doors of + the world. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Have you noticed the progress Catholics are making in the + Northwest, discontinuing public schools, and forcing people to send their + children to the parochial schools; also, at Pittsburg, Pa., a Roman + Catholic priest has been elected principal of a public school, and he has + appointed nuns as assistant teachers? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Sectarian schools ought not to be supported by public + taxation. It is the very essence of religious tyranny to compel a + Methodist to support a Catholic school, or to compel a Catholic to support + a Baptist academy. Nothing should be taught in the public schools that the + teachers do not know. Nothing should be taught about any religion, and + nothing should be taught that can, in any way, be called sectarian. The + sciences are not religion. There is no such thing as Methodist + mathematics, or Baptist botany. In other words, no religion has anything + to do with facts. The facts are all secular; the sciences are all of this + world. If Catholics wish to establish their own schools for the purpose of + preserving their ignorance, they have the right to do so; so has any other + denomination. But in this country the State has no right to teach any form + of religion whatever. Persons of all religions have the right to advocate + and defend any religion in which they believe, or they have the right to + denounce all religions. If the Catholics establish parochial schools, let + them support such schools; and if they do, they will simply lessen or + shorten the longevity of that particular superstition. It has often been + said that nothing will repeal a bad law as quickly as its enforcement. So, + in my judgment, nothing will destroy any church as certainly, and as + rapidly, as for the members of that church to live squarely up to the + creed. The church is indebted to its hypocrisy to-day for its life. No + orthodox church in the United States dare meet for the purpose of revising + the creed. They know that the whole thing would fall to pieces. + </p> + <p> + Nothing could be more absurd than for a Roman Catholic priest to teach a + public school, assisted by nuns. The Catholic Church is the enemy of human + progress; it teaches every man to throw away his reason, to deny his + observation and experience. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Your opinions have frequently been quoted with regard to + the Anarchists—with regard to their trial and execution. Have you + any objection to stating your real opinion in regard to the matter? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Not in the least. I am perfectly willing that all civilized + people should know my opinions on any question in which others than myself + can have any interest. + </p> + <p> + I was anxious, in the first place, that the defendants should have a fair + and impartial trial. The worst form of anarchy is when a judge violates + his conscience and bows to a popular demand. A court should care nothing + for public opinion. An honest judge decides the law, not as it ought to + be, but as it is, and the state of the public mind throws no light upon + the question of what the law then is. + </p> + <p> + I thought that some of the rulings on the trial of the Anarchists were + contrary to law. I think so still. I have read the opinion of the Supreme + Court of Illinois, and while the conclusion reached by that tribunal is + the law of that case, I was not satisfied with the reasons given, and do + not regard the opinion as good law. There is no place for an Anarchist in + the United States. There is no excuse for any resort to force; and it is + impossible to use language too harsh or too bitter in denouncing the + spirit of anarchy in this country. But, no matter how bad a man is, he has + the right to be fairly tried; and if he cannot be fairly tried, then there + is anarchy on the bench. So I was opposed to the execution of these men. I + thought it would have been far better to commute the punishment to + imprisonment, and I said so; and I not only said so, but I wrote a letter + to Governor Oglesby, in which I urged the commutation of the death + sentence. In my judgment, a great mistake was made. I am on the side of + mercy, and if I ever make mistakes, I hope they will all be made on that + side. I have not the slightest sympathy with the feeling of revenge. + Neither have I ever admitted, and I never shall, that every citizen has + not the right to give his opinion on all that may be done by any servant + of the people, by any judge, or by any court, by any officer—however + small or however great. Each man in the United States is a sovereign, and + a king can freely speak his mind. + </p> + <p> + Words were put in my mouth that I never uttered with regard to the + Anarchists. I never said that they were saints, or that they would be + martyrs. What I said was that they would be regarded as saints and martyrs + by many people if they were executed, and that has happened which I said + would happen. I am, so far as I know, on the side of the right. I wish, + above all things, for the preservation of human liberty. This Government + is the best, and we should not lose confidence in liberty. Property is of + very little value in comparison with freedom. A civilization that rests on + slavery is utterly worthless. I do not believe in sacrificing all there is + of value in the human heart, or in the human brain, for the preservation + of what is called property, or rather, on account of the fear that what is + called "property" may perish. Property is in no danger while man is free. + It is the freedom of man that gives value to property. It is the happiness + of the human race that creates what we call value. If we preserve liberty, + the spirit of progress, the conditions of development, property will take + care of itself. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. The Christian press during the past few months has been + very solicitous as to your health, and has reported you weak and feeble + physically, and not only so, but asserts that there is a growing + disposition on your part to lay down your arms, and even to join the + church. + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not think the Christian press has been very solicitous + about my <i>health</i>. Neither do I think that my health will ever add to + theirs. The fact is, I am exceedingly well, and my throat is better than + it has been for many years. Any one who imagines that I am disposed to lay + down my arms can read by Reply to Dr. Field in the November number of the + <i>North American Review</i>. I see no particular difference in myself, + except this; that my hatred of superstition becomes a little more and more + intense; on the other hand, I see more clearly, that all the superstitions + were naturally produced, and I am now satisfied that every man does as he + must, including priests and editors of religious papers. + </p> + <p> + This gives me hope for the future. We find that certain soil, with a + certain amount of moisture and heat, produces good corn, and we find when + the soil is poor, or when the ground is too wet, or too dry, that no + amount of care can, by any possibility, produce good corn. In other words, + we find that the fruit, that is to say, the result, whatever it may be, + depends absolutely upon the conditions. This being so, we will in time + find out the conditions that produce good, intelligent, honest men. This + is the hope for the future. We shall know better than to rely on what is + called reformation, or regeneration, or a resolution born of ignorant + excitement. We shall rely, then, on the eternal foundation—the fact + in nature— that like causes produce like results, and that good + conditions will produce good people. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Every now and then some one challenges you to a + discussion, and nearly every one who delivers lectures, or speeches, + attacking you, or your views, says that you are afraid publicly to debate + these questions. Why do you not meet these men, and why do you not answer + these attacks? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In the first place, it would be a physical impossibility to + reply to all the attacks that have been made—to all the "answers." I + receive these attacks, and these answers, and these lectures almost every + day. Hundreds of them are delivered every year. A great many are put in + pamphlet form, and, of course, copies are received by me. Some of them I + read, at least I look them over, and I have never yet received one worthy + of the slightest notice, never one in which the writer showed the + slightest appreciation of the questions under discussion. All these + pamphlets are about the same, and they could, for the matter, have all + been produced by one person. They are impudent, shallow, abusive, + illogical, and in most respects, ignorant. So far as the lecturers are + concerned, I know of no one who has yet said anything that challenges a + reply. I do not think a single paragraph has been produced by any of the + gentlemen who have replied to me in public, that is now remembered by + reason of its logic or beauty. I do not feel called upon to answer any + argument that does not at least appear to be of value. Whenever any + article appears worthy of an answer, written in a kind and candid spirit, + it gives me pleasure to reply. + </p> + <p> + I should like to meet some one who speaks by authority, some one who + really understands his creed, but I cannot afford to waste time on little + priests or obscure parsons or ignorant laymen. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Truth Seeker</i>, New York, January 14, 1888. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0067" id="link0067"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + ROSCOE CONKLING. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is Mr. Conkling's place in the political history of + the United States? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Upon the great questions Mr. Conkling has been right. + During the war he was always strong and clear, unwavering and decided. His + position was always known. He was right on reconstruction, on civil + rights, on the currency, and, so far as I know, on all important + questions. He will be remembered as an honest, fearless man. He was + admired for his known integrity. He was never even suspected of being + swayed by an improper consideration. He was immeasurably above purchase. + </p> + <p> + His popularity rested upon his absolute integrity. He was not adapted for + a leader, because he would yield nothing. He had no compromise in his + nature. He went his own road and he would not turn aside for the sake of + company. His individuality was too marked and his will too imperious to + become a leader in a republic. There is a great deal of individuality in + this country, and a leader must not appear to govern and must not demand + obedience. In the Senate he was a leader. He settled with no one. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What essentially American idea does he stand for? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It is a favorite saying in this country that the people are + sovereigns. Mr. Conkling felt this to be true, and he exercised what he + believed to be his rights. He insisted upon the utmost freedom for + himself. He settled with no one but himself. He stands for individuality—for + the freedom of the citizen, the independence of the man. No lord, no duke, + no king was ever prouder of his title or his place than Mr. Conkling was + of his position and his power. He was thoroughly American in every drop of + his blood. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What have you to say about his having died with sealed + lips? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Mr. Conkling was too proud to show wounds. He did not tell + his sorrows to the public. It seemed sufficient to him to know the facts + himself. He seemed to have great confidence in time, and he had the + patience to wait. Of course he could have told many things that would have + shed light on many important events, but for my part I think he acted in + the noblest way. + </p> + <p> + He was a striking and original figure in our politics. He stood alone. I + know of no one like him. He will be remembered as a fearless and + incorruptible statesman, a great lawyer, a magnificent speaker, and an + honest man. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Herald</i>, New York, April 19, 1888. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0068" id="link0068"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE CHURCH AND THE STAGE. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I have come to talk with you a little about the drama. + Have you any decided opinions on that subject? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Nothing is more natural than imitation. The little child + with her doll, telling it stories, putting words in its mouth, attributing + to it the feelings of happiness and misery, is the simple tendency toward + the drama. Little children always have plays, they imitate their parents, + they put on the clothes of their elders, they have imaginary parties, + carry on conversation with imaginary persons, have little dishes filled + with imaginary food, pour tea and coffee out of invisible pots, receive + callers, and repeat what they have heard their mothers say. This is simply + the natural drama, an exercise of the imagination which always has been + and which, probably, always will be, a source of great pleasure. In the + early days of the world nothing was more natural than for the people to + re-enact the history of their country—to represent the great heroes, + the great battles, and the most exciting scenes the history of which has + been preserved by legend. I believe this tendency to re-enact, to bring + before the eyes the great, the curious, and pathetic events of history, + has been universal. All civilized nations have delighted in the theatre, + and the greatest minds in many countries have been devoted to the drama, + and, without doubt, the greatest man about whom we know anything devoted + his life to the production of plays. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I would like to ask you why, in your opinion as a student + of history, has the Protestant Church always been so bitterly opposed to + the theatre? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I believe the early Christians expected the destruction of + the world. They had no idea of remaining here, in the then condition of + things, but for a few days. They expected that Christ would come again, + that the world would be purified by fire, that all the unbelievers would + be burned up and that the earth would become a fit habitation for the + followers of the Saviour. Protestantism became as ascetic as the early + Christians. It is hard to conceive of anybody believing in the "Five + Points" of John Calvin going to any place of amusement. The creed of + Protestantism made life infinitely sad and made man infinitely + responsible. According to this creed every man was liable at any moment to + be summoned to eternal pain; the most devout Christian was not absolutely + sure of salvation. This life was a probationary one. Everybody was + considered as waiting on the dock of time, sitting on his trunk, expecting + the ship that was to bear him to an eternity of good or evil—probably + evil. They were in no state of mind to enjoy burlesque or comedy, and, so + far as tragedy was concerned, their own lives and their own creeds were + tragic beyond anything that could by any possibility happen in this world. + A broken heart was nothing to be compared with a damned soul; the + afflictions of a few years, with the flames of eternity. This, to say the + least of it, accounts, in part, for the hatred that Protestantism always + bore toward the stage. Of course, the churches have always regarded the + theatre as a rival and have begrudged the money used to support the stage. + You know that Macaulay said the Puritans objected to bear-baiting, not + because they pitied the bears, but because they hated to see the people + enjoy themselves. There is in this at least a little truth. Orthodox + religion has always been and always will be the enemy of happiness. This + world is not the place for enjoyment. This is the place to suffer. This is + the place to practice self-denial, to wear crowns of thorns; the other + world is the place for joy, provided you are fortunate enough to travel + the narrow, grass-grown path. Of course, wicked people can be happy here. + People who care nothing for the good of others, who live selfish and + horrible lives, are supposed by Christians to enjoy themselves; + consequently, they will be punished in another world. But whoever carried + the cross of decency, and whoever denied himself to that degree that he + neither stole nor forged nor murdered, will be paid for this self-denial + in another world. And whoever said that he preferred a prayer-meeting with + five or six queer old men and two or three very aged women, with one or + two candles, and who solemnly affirmed that he enjoyed that far more than + he could a play of Shakespeare, was expected with much reason, I think, to + be rewarded in another world. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think that church people were justified in their + opposition to the drama in the days when Congreve, Wycherley and Ben + Jonson were the popular favorites? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In that time there was a great deal of vulgarity in many of + the plays. Many things were said on the stage that the people of this age + would not care to hear, and there was not very often enough wit in the + saying to redeem it. My principal objection to Congreve, Wycherley and + most of their contemporaries is that the plays were exceedingly poor and + had not much in them of real, sterling value. The Puritans, however, did + not object on account of the vulgarity; that was not the honest objection. + No play was ever put upon the English stage more vulgar then the "Table + Talk" of Martin Luther, and many sermons preached in that day were almost + unrivaled for vulgarity. The worst passages in the Old Testament were + quoted with a kind of unction that showed a love for the vulgar. And, in + my judgment, the worst plays were as good as the sermons, and the theatre + of that time was better adapted to civilize mankind, to soften the human + heart, and to make better men and better women, than the pulpit of that + day. The actors, in my judgment, were better people than the preachers. + They had in them more humanity, more real goodness and more appreciation + of beauty, of tenderness, of generosity and of heroism. Probably no + religion was ever more thoroughly hateful than Puritanism. But all + religionists who believe in an eternity of pain would naturally be opposed + to everything that makes this life better; and, as a matter of fact, + orthodox churches have been the enemies of painting, of sculpture, of + music and the drama. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What, in your estimation, is the value of the drama as a + factor in our social life at the present time? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I believe that the plays of Shakespeare are the most + valuable things in the possession of the human race. No man can read and + understand Shakespeare without being an intellectually developed man. If + Shakespeare could be as widely circulated as the Bible—if all the + Bible societies would break the plates they now have and print + Shakespeare, and put Shakespeare in all the languages of the world, + nothing would so raise the intellectual standard of mankind. Think of the + different influence on men between reading Deuteronomy and "Hamlet" and + "King Lear"; between studying Numbers and the "Midsummer Night's Dream"; + between pondering over the murderous crimes and assassinations in Judges, + and studying "The Tempest" or "As You Like It." Man advances as he + develops intellectually. The church teaches obedience. The man who reads + Shakespeare has his intellectual horizon enlarged. He begins to think for + himself, and he enjoys living in a new world. The characters of + Shakespeare become his acquaintances. He admires the heroes, the + philosophers; he laughs with the clowns, and he almost adores the + beautiful women, the pure, loving, and heroic women born of Shakespeare's + heart and brain. The stage has amused and instructed the world. It had + added to the happiness of mankind. It has kept alive all arts. It is in + partnership with all there is of beauty, of poetry, and expression. It + goes hand in hand with music, with painting, with sculpture, with oratory, + with philosophy, and history. The stage has humor. It abhors stupidity. It + despises hypocrisy. It holds up to laughter the peculiarities, the + idiosyncrasies, and the little insanities of mankind. It thrusts the spear + of ridicule through the shield of pretence. It laughs at the lugubrious + and it has ever taught and will, in all probability, forever teach, that + Man is more than a title, and that human love laughs at all barriers, at + all the prejudices of society and caste that tend to keep apart two loving + hearts. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of the progress of the drama in + educating the artistic sense of the community as compared with the + progress of the church as an educator of the moral sentiment? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course, the stage is not all good, nor is—and I + say this with becoming modesty—the pulpit all bad. There have been + bad actors and there have been good preachers. There has been no + improvement in plays since Shakespeare wrote. There has been great + improvement in theatres, and the tendency seems to me be toward higher + artistic excellence in the presentation of plays. As we become slowly + civilized we will constantly demand more artistic excellence. There will + always be a class satisfied with the lowest form of dramatic presentation, + with coarse wit, with stupid but apparent jokes, and there will always be + a class satisfied with almost anything; but the class demanding the + highest, the best, will constantly increase in numbers, and the other + classes will, in all probability, correspondingly decrease. The church has + ceased to be an educator. In an artistic direction it never did anything + except in architecture, and that ceased long ago. The followers of to-day + are poor copyists. The church has been compelled to be a friend of, or + rather to call in the assistance of, music. As a moral teacher, the church + always has been and always will be a failure. The pulpit, to use the + language of Frederick Douglass, has always "echoed the cry of the street." + Take our own history. The church was the friend of slavery. That + institution was defended in nearly every pulpit. The Bible was the + auction-block on which the slave-mother stood while her child was sold + from her arms. The church, for hundreds of years, was the friend and + defender of the slave-trade. I know of no crime that has not been defended + by the church, in one form or another. The church is not a pioneer; it + accepts a new truth, last of all, and only when denial has become useless. + The church preaches the doctrine of forgiveness. This doctrine sells crime + on credit. The idea that there is a God who rewards and punishes, and who + can reward, if he so wishes, the meanest and vilest of the human race, so + that he will be eternally happy, and can punish the best of the human + race, so that he will be eternally miserable, is subversive of all + morality. Happiness ought to be the result of good actions. Happiness + ought to spring from the seed a man sows himself. It ought not to be a + reward, it ought to be a consequence, and there ought to be no idea that + there is any being who can step between action and consequence. To preach + that a man can abuse his wife and children, rob his neighbors, slander his + fellow-citizens, and yet, a moment or two before he dies, by repentance + become a glorified angel is, in my judgment, immoral. And to preach that a + man can be a good man, kind to his wife and children, an honest man, + paying his debts, and yet, for the lack of a certain belief, the moment + after he is dead, be sent to an eternal prison, is also immoral. So that, + according to my opinion, while the church teaches men many good things, it + also teaches doctrines subversive of morality. If there were not in the + whole world a church, the morality of man, in my judgment, would be the + gainer. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the treatment of the actor by + society in his social relations? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. For a good many years the basis of society has been the + dollar. Only a few years ago all literary men were ostracized because they + had no money; neither did they have a reading public. If any man produced + a book he had to find a patron—some titled donkey, some lauded + lubber, in whose honor he could print a few well-turned lies on the + fly-leaf. If you wish to know the degradation of literature, read the + dedication written by Lord Bacon to James I., in which he puts him beyond + all kings, living and dead—beyond Cæsar and Marcus Aurelius. + In those days the literary man was a servant, a hack. He lived in Grub + Street. He was only one degree above the sturdy vagrant and the escaped + convict. Why was this? He had no money and he lived in an age when money + was the fountain of respectability. Let me give you another instance: + Mozart, whose brain was a fountain of melody, was forced to eat at table + with coachmen, with footmen and scullions. He was simply a servant who was + commanded to make music for a pudding-headed bishop. The same was true of + the great painters, and of almost all other men who rendered the world + beautiful by art, and who enriched the languages of mankind. The basis of + respectability was the dollar. + </p> + <p> + Now that the literary man has an intelligent public he cares nothing for + the ignorant patron. The literary man makes money. The world is becoming + civilized and the literary man stands high. In England, however, if + Charles Darwin had been invited to dinner, and there had been present some + sprig of nobility, some titled vessel holding the germs of hereditary + disease, Darwin would have been compelled to occupy a place beneath him. + But I have hopes even for England. The same is true of the artist. The man + who can now paint a picture by which he receives from five thousand to + fifty thousand dollars, is necessarily respectable. The actor who may + realize from one to two thousand dollars a night, or even more, is + welcomed in the stupidest and richest society. So with the singers and + with all others who instruct and amuse mankind. Many people imagine that + he who amuses them must be lower than they. This, however, is hardly + possible. I believe in the aristocracy of the brain and heart; in the + aristocracy of intelligence and goodness, and not only appreciate but + admire the great actor, the great painter, the great sculptor, the + marvelous singer. In other words, I admire all people who tend to make + this life richer, who give an additional thought to this poor world. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think this liberal movement, favoring the better + class of plays, inaugurated by the Rev. Dr. Abbott, will tend to soften + the sentiment of the orthodox churches against the stage? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have not read what Dr. Abbott has written on this + subject. From your statement of his position, I think he entertains quite + a sensible view, and, when we take into consideration that he is a + minister, a miraculously sensible view. It is not the business of the + dramatist, the actor, the painter or the sculptor to teach what the church + calls morality. The dramatist and the actor ought to be truthful, ought to + be natural—that is to say, truthfully and naturally artistic. He + should present pictures of life properly chosen, artistically constructed; + an exhibition of emotions truthfully done, artistically done. If vice is + presented naturally, no one will fall in love with vice. If the better + qualities of the human heart are presented naturally, no one can fail to + fall in love with them. But they need not be presented for that purpose. + The object of the artist is to present truthfully and artistically. He is + not a Sunday school teacher. He is not to have the moral effect eternally + in his mind. It is enough for him to be truly artistic. Because, as I have + said, a great many times, the greatest good is done by indirection. For + instance, a man lives a good, noble, honest and lofty life. The value of + that life would be destroyed if he kept calling attention to it—if + he said to all who met him, "Look at me!" he would become intolerable. The + truly artistic speaks of perfection; that is to say, of harmony, not only + of conduct, but of harmony and proportion in everything. The pulpit is + always afraid of the passions, and really imagines that it has some + influence on men and women, keeping them in the path of virtue. No greater + mistake was ever made. Eternally talking and harping on that one subject, + in my judgment, does harm. Forever keeping it in the mind by reading + passages from the Bible, by talking about the "corruption of the human + heart," of the "power of temptation," of the scarcity of virtue, of the + plentifulness of vice—all these platitudes tend to produce exactly + what they are directed against. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I fear, Colonel, that I have surprised you into agreeing + with a clergyman. The following are the points made by the Rev. Dr. Abbott + in his editorial on the theatre, and it seems to me that you and he think + very much alike—on that subject. The points are these: + </p> + <p> + 1. It is not the function of the drama to teach moral lessons. + </p> + <p> + 2. A moral lesson neither makes nor mars either a drama or a novel. + </p> + <p> + 3. The moral quality of a play does not depend upon the result. + </p> + <p> + 4. The real function of the drama is like that of the novel—not to + amuse, not to excite; but to portray life, and so minister to it. And as + virtue and vice, goodness and evil, are the great fundamental facts of + life, they must, in either serious story or serious play, be portrayed. If + they are so portrayed that the vice is alluring and the virtue repugnant, + the play or story is immoral; if so portrayed that the vice is repellant + and the virtue alluring, they play or story is moral. + </p> + <p> + 5. The church has no occasion to ask the theatre to preach; though if it + does preach we have a right to demand that its ethical doctrines be pure + and high. But we have a right to demand that in its pictures of life it so + portrays vice as to make it abhorrent, and so portrays virtue as to make + it attractive. + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I agree in most of what you have read, though I must + confess that to find a minister agreeing with me, or to find myself + agreeing with a minister, makes me a little uncertain. All art, in my + judgment, is for the sake of expression—equally true of the drama as + of painting and sculpture. No poem touches the human heart unless it + touches the universal. It must, at some point, move in unison with the + great ebb and flow of things. The same is true of the play, of a piece of + music or a statue. I think that all real artists, in all departments, + touch the universal and when they do the result is good; but the result + need not have been a consideration. There is an old story that at first + there was a temple erected upon the earth by God himself; that afterward + this temple was shivered into countless pieces and distributed over the + whole earth, and that all the rubies and diamonds and precious stones + since found are parts of that temple. Now, if we could conceive of a + building, or of anything involving all Art, and that it had been scattered + abroad, then I would say that whoever find and portrays truthfully a + thought, an emotion, a truth, has found and restored one of the jewels. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Dramatic Mirror</i>, New York, April 21, 1888. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0069" id="link0069"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + PROTECTION AND FREE TRADE. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you take much interest in politics, Colonel Ingersoll? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I take as much interest in politics as a Republican ought + who expects nothing and who wants nothing for himself. I want to see this + country again controlled by the Republican party. The present + administration has not, in my judgment, the training and the political + intelligence to decide upon the great economic and financial questions. + There are a great many politicians and but few statesmen. Here, where men + have to be elected every two or six years, there is hardly time for the + officials to study statesmanship—they are busy laying pipes and + fixing fences for the next election. Each one feels much like a monkey at + a fair, on the top of a greased pole, and puts in the most of his time + dodging stones and keeping from falling. I want to see the party in power + best qualified, best equipped, to administer the Government. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think will be the particular issue of the + coming campaign? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. That question has already been answered. The great question + will be the tariff. Mr. Cleveland imagines that the surplus can be gotten + rid of by a reduction of the tariff. If the reduction is so great as to + increase the demand for foreign articles, the probability is that the + surplus will be increased. The surplus can surely be done away with by + either of two methods; first make the tariff prohibitory; second, have no + tariff. But if the tariff is just at that point where the foreign goods + could pay it and yet undersell the American so as to stop home + manufactures, then the surplus would increase. + </p> + <p> + As a rule we can depend on American competition to keep prices at a + reasonable rate. When that fails we have at all times the governing power + in our hands—that is to say, we can reduce the tariff. In other + words, the tariff is not for the benefit of the manufacturer—the + protection is not for the mechanic or the capitalist —it is for the + whole country. I do not believe in protecting silk simply to help the town + of Paterson, but I am for the protection of the manufacture, because, in + my judgment, it helps the entire country, and because I know that it has + given us a far better article of silk at a far lower price than we + obtained before the establishment of those factories. + </p> + <p> + I believe in the protection of every industry that needs it, to the end + that we may make use of every kind of brain and find use for all human + capacities. In this way we will produce greater and better people. A + nation of agriculturalists or a nation of mechanics would become narrow + and small, but where everything is done, then the brain is cultivated on + every side, from artisan to artist. That is to say, we become thinkers as + well as workers; muscle and mind form a partnership. + </p> + <p> + I don't believe that England is particularly interested in the welfare of + the United States. It never seemed probable to me that men like Godwin + Smith sat up nights fearing that we in some way might injure ourselves. To + use a phrase that will be understood by theologians at least, we ought to + "copper" all English advice. + </p> + <p> + The free traders say that there ought to be no obstructions placed by + governments between buyers and sellers. If we want to make the trade, of + course there should be no obstruction, but if we prefer that Americans + should trade with Americans—that Americans should make what + Americans want—then, so far as trading with foreigners is concerned, + there ought to be an obstruction. + </p> + <p> + I am satisfied that the United States could get along if the rest of the + world should be submerged, and I want to see this country in such a + condition that it can be independent of the rest of mankind. + </p> + <p> + There is more mechanical genius in the United States than in the rest of + the world, and this genius has been fostered and developed by protection. + The Democracy wish to throw all this away—to make useless this + skill, this ingenuity, born of generations of application and thought. + These deft and marvelous hands that create the countless things of use and + beauty to be worth no more than the common hands of ignorant delvers and + shovelers. To the extent that thought is mingled with labor, labor becomes + honorable and its burden lighter. + </p> + <p> + Thousands of millions of dollars have been invested on the faith of this + policy—millions and millions of people are this day earning their + bread by reason of protection, and they are better housed and better fed + and better clothed than any other workmen on the globe. + </p> + <p> + The intelligent people of this country will not be satisfied with + President Cleveland's platform—with his free trade primer. They + believe in good wages for good work, and they know that this is the + richest nation in the world. The Republic is worth at least sixty billion + dollars. This vast sum is the result of labor, and this labor has been + protected either directly or indirectly. This vast sum has been made by + the farmer, the mechanic, the laborer, the miner, the inventor. + </p> + <p> + Protection has given work and wages to the mechanic and a market to the + farmer. The interests of all laborers in America—all men who work—are + identical. If the farmer pays more for his plow he gets more for his + plowing. In old times, when the South manufactured nothing and raised only + raw material—for the reason that its labor was enslaved and could + not be trusted with education enough to become skillful—it was in + favor of free trade; it wanted to sell the raw material to England and buy + the manufactured article where it could buy the cheapest. Even under those + circumstances it was a short-sighted and unpatriotic policy. Now + everything is changing in the South. They are beginning to see that he who + simply raises raw material is destined to be forever poor. For instance, + the farmer who sells corn will never get rich; the farmer should sell pork + and beef and horses. So a nation, a State, that parts with its raw + material, loses nearly all the profits, for the reason that the profit + rises with the skill requisite to produce. It requires only brute strength + to raise cotton; it requires something more to spin it, to weave it, and + the more beautiful the fabric the greater the skill, and consequently the + higher the wages and the greater the profit. In other words, the more + thought is mingled with labor the more valuable is the result. + </p> + <p> + Besides all this, protection is the mother of economy; the cheapest at + last, no matter whether the amount paid is less or more. It is far better + for us to make glass than to sell sand to other countries; the profit on + sand will be exceedingly small. + </p> + <p> + The interests of this country are united; they depend upon each other. You + destroy one and the effect upon all the rest may be disastrous. Suppose we + had free trade to-day, what would become of the manufacturing interests + to-morrow? The value of property would fall thousands of millions of + dollars in an instant. The fires would die out in thousands and thousands + of furnaces, innumerable engines would stop, thousands and thousands would + stop digging coal and iron and steel. What would the city that had been + built up by the factories be worth? What would be the effect on farms in + that neighborhood? What would be the effect on railroads, on freights, on + business—what upon the towns through which they passed? Stop making + iron in Pennsylvania, and the State would be bankrupt in an hour. Give us + free trade, and New Jersey, Connecticut and many other States would not be + worth one dollar an acre. + </p> + <p> + If a man will think of the connection between all industries—of the + dependence and inter-dependence of each on all; of the subtle relations + between all human pursuits—he will see that to destroy some of the + grand interest makes financial ruin and desolation. I am not talking now + about a tariff that is too high, because that tariff does not produce a + surplus—neither am I asking to have that protected which needs no + protection—I am only insisting that all the industries that have + been fostered and that need protection should be protected, and that we + should turn our attention to the interests of our own country, letting + other nations take care of themselves. If every American would use only + articles produced by Americans—if they would wear only American + cloth, only American silk—if we would absolutely stand by each + other, the prosperity of this nation would be the marvel of human history. + We can live at home, and we have now the ingenuity, the intelligence, the + industry to raise from nature everything that a nation needs. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What have you to say about the claim that Mr. Cleveland + does not propose free trade? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I suppose that he means what he said. His argument was all + for free trade, and he endeavored to show to the farmer that he lost + altogether more money by protection, because he paid a higher price for + manufactured articles and received no more for what he had to sell. This + certainly was an argument in favor of free trade. And there is no way to + decrease the surplus except to prohibit the importation of foreign + articles, which certainly Mr. Cleveland is not in favor of doing, or to + reduce the tariff to a point so low that no matter how much may be + imported the surplus will be reduced. If the message means anything it + means free trade, and if there is any argument in it it is an argument in + favor of absolutely free trade. The party, not willing to say "free trade" + uses the word "reform." This is simply a mask and a pretence. The party + knows that the President made a mistake. The party, however, is so + situated that it cannot get rid of Cleveland, and consequently must take + him with his mistake—they must take him with his message, and then + show that all he intended by "free trade" was "reform." + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Who do you think ought to be nominated at Chicago? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Personally, I am for General Gresham. I am saying nothing + against the other prominent candidates. They have their friends, and many + of them are men of character and capacity, and would make good Presidents. + But I know of no man who has a better record than Gresham, and of no man + who, in my judgment, would receive a larger number of votes. I know of no + Republican who would not support Judge Gresham. I have never heard one say + that he had anything against him or know of any reason why he should not + be voted for. He is a man of great natural capacity. He is candid and + unselfish. He has for many years been engaged in the examination and + decision of important questions, of good principles, and consequently he + has a trained mind. He knows how to take hold of a question, to get at a + fact, to discover in a multitude of complications the real principle—the + heart of the case. He has always been a man of affairs. He is not simply a + judge—that is to say, a legal pair of scales—he knows the + effect of his decision on the welfare of communities—he is not + governed entirely by precedents—he has opinions of his own. In the + next place, he is a man of integrity in all the relations of life. He is + not a seeker after place, and, so far as I know, he has done nothing for + the purpose of inducing any human being to favor his nomination. I have + never spoken to him on the subject. + </p> + <p> + In the West he has developed great strength, in fact, his popularity has + astonished even his best friends. The great mass of people want a + perfectly reliable man—one who will be governed by his best judgment + and by a desire to do the fair and honorable thing. It has been stated + that the great corporations might not support him with much warmth for the + reason that he has failed to decide certain cases in their favor. I + believe that he has decided the law as he believed it to be, and that he + has never been influenced in the slightest degree, by the character, + position, or the wealth of the parties before him. It may be that some of + the great financiers, the manipulators, the creators of bonds and stocks, + the blowers of financial bubbles, will not support him and will not + contribute any money for the payment of election expenses, because they + are perfectly satisfied that they could not make any arrangements with him + to get the money back, together with interest thereon, but the people of + this country are intelligent enough to know what that means, and they will + be patriotic enough to see to it that no man needs to bow or bend or + cringe to the rich to attain the highest place. + </p> + <p> + The possibility is that Mr. Blaine could have been nominated had he not + withdrawn, but having withdrawn, of course the party is released. Others + were induced to become candidates, and under these circumstances Mr. + Blaine has hardly the right to change his mind, and certainly other + persons ought not to change it for him. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think that the friends of Gresham would support + Blaine if he should be nominated? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Undoubtedly they would. If they go into convention they + must abide the decision. It would be dishonorable to do that which you + would denounce in others. Whoever is nominated ought to receive the + support of all good Republicans. No party can exist that will not be bound + by its own decision. When the platform is made, then is the time to + approve or reject. The conscience of the individual cannot be bound by the + action of party, church or state. But when you ask a convention to + nominate your candidate, you really agree to stand by the choice of the + convention. Principles are of more importance than candidates. As a rule, + men who refuse to support the nominee, while pretending to believe in the + platform, are giving an excuse for going over to the enemy. It is a + pretence to cover desertion. I hope that whoever may be nominated at + Chicago will receive the cordial support of the entire party, of every man + who believes in Republican principles, who believes in good wages for good + work, and has confidence in the old firms of "Mind and Muscle," of "Head + and Hand." + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York Press</i>, May 27, 1888. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0070" id="link0070"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + LABOR, AND TARIFF REFORM. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What, in your opinion, is the condition of labor in this + country as compared with that abroad? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In the first place, it is self-evident that if labor + received more in other lands than in this the tide of emigration would be + changed. The workingmen would leave our shores. People who believe in free + trade are always telling us that the laboring man is paid much better in + Germany than in the United States, and yet nearly every ship that comes + from Germany is crammed with Germans, who, for some unaccountable reason, + prefer to leave a place where they are doing well and come to one where + they must do worse. + </p> + <p> + The same thing can be said of Denmark and Sweden, of England, Scotland, + Ireland and of Italy. The truth is, that in all those lands the laboring + man can earn just enough to-day to do the work of to-morrow; everything he + earns is required to get food enough in his body and rags enough on his + back to work from day to day, to toil from week to week. There are only + three luxuries within his reach—air, light, and water; probably a + fourth might be added —death. + </p> + <p> + In those countries the few own the land, the few have the capital, the few + make the laws, and the laboring man is not a power. His opinion in neither + asked nor heeded. The employers pay as little as they can. When the world + becomes civilized everybody will want to pay what things are worth, but + now capital is perfectly willing that labor shall remain at the starvation + line. Competition on every hand tends to put down wages. The time will + come when the whole community will see that justice is economical. If you + starve laboring men you increase crime; you multiply, as they do in + England, workhouses, hospitals and all kinds of asylums, and these public + institutions are for the purpose of taking care of the wrecks that have + been produced by greed and stinginess and meanness—that is to say, + by the ignorance of capital. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What effect has the protective tariff on the condition of + labor in this country? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. To the extent that the tariff keeps out the foreign article + it is a direct protection to American labor. Everything in this country is + on a larger scale than in any other. There is far more generosity among + the manufacturers and merchants and millionaires and capitalists of the + United States than among those of any other country, although they are bad + enough and mean enough here. + </p> + <p> + But the great thing for the laboring man in the United States is that he + is regarded as a man. He is a unit of political power. His vote counts + just as much as that of the richest and most powerful. The laboring man + has to be consulted. The candidate has either to be his friend or to + pretend to be his friend, before he can succeed. A man running for the + presidency could not say the slightest word against the laboring man, or + calculated to put a stain upon industry, without destroying every possible + chance of success. Generally, every candidate tries to show that he is a + laboring man, or that he was a laboring man, or that his father was before + him. There is in this country very little of the spirit of caste—the + most infamous spirit that ever infested the heartless breast of the + brainless head of a human being. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What will be the effect on labor of a departure in + American policy in the direction of free trade? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. If free trade could be adopted to-morrow there would be an + instant shrinkage of values in this country. Probably the immediate loss + would equal twenty billion dollars—that is to say, one-third of the + value of the country. No one can tell its extent. All thing are so + interwoven that to destroy one industry cripples another, and the + influence keeps on until it touches the circumference of human interests. + </p> + <p> + I believe that labor is a blessing. It never was and never will be a + curse. It is a blessed thing to labor for your wife and children, for your + father and mother, and for the ones you love. It is a blessed thing to + have an object in life—something to do— something to call into + play your best thoughts, to develop your faculties and to make you a man. + How beautiful, how charming, are the dreams of the young mechanic, the + artist, the musician, the actor and the student. How perfectly stupid must + be the life of a young man with nothing to do, no ambition, no enthusiasm—that + is to say, nothing of the divine in him; the young man with an object in + life, of whose brain a great thought, a great dream has taken possession, + and in whose heart there is a great, throbbing hope. He looks forward to + success—to wife, children, home—all the blessings and sacred + joys of human life. He thinks of wealth and fame and honor, and of a long, + genial, golden, happy autumn. + </p> + <p> + Work gives the feeling of independence, of self-respect. A man who does + something necessarily puts a value on himself. He feels that he is a part + of the world's force. The idler—no matter what he says, no matter + how scornfully he may look at the laborer—in his very heart knows + exactly what he is; he knows that he is a counterfeit, a poor worthless + imitation of a man. + </p> + <p> + But there is a vast difference between work and what I call "toil." What + must be the life of a man who can earn only one dollar or two dollars a + day? If this man has a wife and a couple of children how can the family + live? What must they eat? What must they wear? From the cradle to the + coffin they are ignorant of any luxury of life. If the man is sick, if one + of the children dies, how can doctors and medicines be paid for? How can + the coffin or the grave be purchased? These people live on what might be + called "the snow line"—just at that point where trees end and the + mosses begin. What are such lives worth? The wages of months would hardly + pay for the ordinary dinner of the family of a rich man. The savings of a + whole life would not purchase one fashionable dress, or the lace on it. + Such a man could not save enough during his whole life to pay for the + flowers of a fashionable funeral. + </p> + <p> + And yet how often hundreds of thousands of persons, who spend thousands of + dollars every year on luxuries, really wonder why the laboring people + should complain. They are astonished when a car driver objects to working + fourteen hours a day. Men give millions of dollars to carry the gospel to + the heathen, and leave their own neighbors without bread; and these same + people insist on closing libraries and museums of art on Sunday, and yet + Sunday is the only day that these institutions can be visited by the poor. + </p> + <p> + They even want to stop the street cars so that these workers, these men + and women, cannot go to the parks or the fields on Sunday. They want + stages stopped on fashionable avenues so that the rich may not be + disturbed in their prayers and devotions. + </p> + <p> + The condition of the workingman, even in America, is bad enough. If free + trade will not reduce wages what will? If manufactured articles become + cheaper the skilled laborers of America must work cheaper or stop + producing the articles. Every one knows that most of the value of a + manufactured article comes from labor. Think of the difference between the + value of a pound of cotton and a pound of the finest cotton cloth; between + a pound of flax and enough point lace to weigh a pound; between a few + ounces of paint, two or three yards of canvas and a great picture; between + a block of stone and a statue! Labor is the principal factor in price; + when the price falls wages must go down. + </p> + <p> + I do not claim that protection is for the benefit of any particular class, + but that it is for the benefit not only of that particular class, but of + the entire country. In England the common laborer expects to spend his old + age in some workhouse. He is cheered through all his days of toil, through + all his years of weariness, by the prospect of dying a respectable pauper. + The women work as hard as the men. They toil in the iron mills. They make + nails, they dig coal, they toil in the fields. + </p> + <p> + In Europe they carry the hod, they work like beasts and with beasts, until + they lose almost the semblance of human beings—until they look + inferior to the animals they drive. On the labor of these deformed + mothers, of these bent and wrinkled girls, of little boys with the faces + of old age, the heartless nobility live in splendor and extravagant + idleness. I am not now speaking of the French people, as France is the + most prosperous country in Europe. + </p> + <p> + Let us protect our mothers, our wives and our children from the deformity + of toil, from the depths of poverty. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is not the ballot an assurance to the laboring man that + he can get fair treatment from his employer? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The laboring man in this country has the political power, + provided he has the intelligence to know it and the intelligence to use + it. In so far as laws can assist labor, the workingman has it in his power + to pass such laws; but in most foreign lands the laboring man has really + no voice. It is enough for him to work and wait and suffer and emigrate. + He can take refuge in the grave or go to America. + </p> + <p> + In the old country, where people have been taught that all blessing come + from the king, it is very natural for the poor to believe the other side + of that proposition—that is to say, all evils come from the king, + from the government. They are rocked in the cradle of this falsehood. So + when they come to this country, if they are unfortunate, it is natural for + them to blame the Government. + </p> + <p> + The discussion of these questions, however, has already done great good. + The workingman is becoming more and more intelligent. He is getting a + better idea every day of the functions and powers and limitations of + government, and if the problem is ever worked out— and by "problem" + I mean the just and due relations that should exist between labor and + capital—it will be worked out here in America. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What assurance has the American laborer that he will not + be ultimately swamped by foreign immigration? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Most of the immigrants that come to American come because + they want a home. Nearly every one of them is what you may call "land + hungry." In his country, to own a piece of land was to be respectable, + almost a nobleman. The owner of a little land was regarded as the founder + of a family—what you might call a "village dynasty." When they leave + their native shores for America, their dream is to become a land owner—to + have fields, to own trees, and to listen to the music of their own brooks. + </p> + <p> + The moment they arrive the mass of them seek the West, where land can be + obtained. The great Northwest now is being filled with Scandinavian + farmers, with persons from every part of Germany—in fact from all + foreign countries—and every year they are adding millions of acres + to the plowed fields of the Republic. This land hunger, this desire to own + a home, to have a field, to have flocks and herds, to sit under your own + vine and fig tree, will prevent foreign immigration from interfering to + any hurtful degree with the skilled workmen of America. These land owners, + these farmers, become consumers of manufactured articles. They keep the + wheels and spindles turning and the fires in the forges burning. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of Cleveland's message? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Only the other day I read a speech made by the Hon. William + D. Kelley, of Pennsylvania, upon this subject, in which he says in answer + to what he calls "the puerile absurdity of President Cleveland's + assumption" that the duty is always added to the cost, not only of + imported commodities, but to the price of like commodities produced in + this country, "that the duties imposed by our Government on sugar reduced + to <i>ad valorem</i> were never so high as now, and the price of sugar was + never in this country so low as it is now." He also showed that this tax + on sugar has made it possible for us to produce sugar from other plants + and he gives the facts in relation to corn sugar. + </p> + <p> + We are now using annually nineteen million bushels of corn for the purpose + of making glucose or corn sugar. He shows that in this industry alone + there has been a capital invested of eleven million dollars; that seven + hundred and thirty-two thousand acres of land are required to furnish the + supply, and that this one industry now gives employment to about + twenty-two thousand farmers, about five thousand laborers in factories, + and that the annual value of this product of corn sugar is over seventeen + million dollars. + </p> + <p> + He also shows what we may expect from the cultivation of the beet. I + advise every one to read that speech, so that they may have some idea of + the capabilities of this country, of the vast wealth asking for + development, of the countless avenues opened for ingenuity, energy and + intelligence. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Does the protective tariff cheapen the prices of + commodities to the laboring man? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In this there are involved two questions. If the tariff is + so low that the foreign article is imported, of course this tariff is + added to the cost and must be paid by the consumer; but if the protective + tariff is so high that the importer cannot pay it, and as a consequence + the article is produced in America, then it depends largely upon + competition whether the full amount of the tariff will be added to the + article. As a rule, competition will settle that question in America, and + the article will be sold as cheaply as the producers can afford. + </p> + <p> + For instance: If there is a tariff, we will say of fifty cents on a pair + of shoes, and this tariff is so low that the foreign article can afford to + pay it, then that tariff, of course, must be paid by the consumer. But + suppose the tariff was five dollars on a pair of shoes—that is to + say, absolutely prohibitory—does any man in his senses say that five + dollars would be added to each pair of American shoes? Of course, the + statement is the answer. + </p> + <p> + I think it is the duty of the laboring man in this country, first, + thoroughly to post himself upon these great questions, to endeavor to + understand his own interest as well as the interest of his country, and if + he does, I believe he will arrive at the conclusion that it is far better + to have the country filled with manufacturers than to be employed simply + in the raising of raw material. I think he will come to the conclusion + that we had better have skilled labor here, and that it is better to pay + for it than not to have it. I think he will find that it is better for + America to be substantially independent of the rest of the world. I think + he will conclude that nothing is more desirable than the development of + American brain, and that nothing better can be raised than great and + splendid men and women. I think he will conclude that the cloud coming + from the factories, from the great stacks and chimneys, is the cloud on + which will be seen, and always seen, the bow of American promise. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What have you to say about tariff reform? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have this to say: That the tariff is for the most part + the result of compromises—that is, one State wishing to have + something protected agrees to protect something else in some other State, + so that, as a matter of fact, many things are protected that need no + protection, and many things are unprotected that ought to be cared for by + the Government. + </p> + <p> + I am in favor of a sensible reform of the tariff—that is to say, I + do not wish to put it in the power of the few to practice extortion upon + the many. Congress should always be wide awake, and whenever there is any + abuse it should be corrected. At the same time, next to having the tariff + just—next in importance is to have it stable. It does us great + injury to have every dollar invested in manufactures frightened every time + Congress meets. Capital should feel secure. Insecurity calls for a higher + interest, wants to make up for the additional risk, whereas, when a dollar + feels absolutely certain that it is well invested, that it is not to be + disturbed, it is satisfied with a very low rate of interest. + </p> + <p> + The present agitation—the message of President Cleveland upon these + questions—will cost the country many hundred millions of dollars. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I see that some one has been charging that Judge Gresham + is an Infidel? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have known Judge Gresham for many years, and of course + have heard him talk upon many subjects, but I do not remember ever + discussing with him a religious topic. I only know that he believes in + allowing every man to express his opinions, and that he does not hate a + man because he differs with him. I believe that he believes in + intellectual hospitality, and that he would give all churches equal + rights, and would treat them all with the utmost fairness. I regard him as + a fair-minded, intelligent and honest man, and that is enough for me. I am + satisfied with the way he acts, and care nothing about his particular + creed. I like a manly man, whether he agrees with me or not. I believe + that President Garfield was a minister of the Church of the Disciples—that + made no difference to me. Mr. Blaine is a member of some church in Augusta—I + care nothing for that. Whether Judge Gresham belongs to any church, I do + not know. I never asked him, but I know he does not agree with me by a + large majority. + </p> + <p> + In this country, where a divorce has been granted between church and + state, the religious opinions of candidates should be let alone. To make + the inquiry is a piece of impertinence—a piece of impudence. I have + voted for men of all persuasions and expect to keep right on, and if they + are not civilized enough to give me the liberty they ask for themselves, + why I shall simply set them an example of decency. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the political outlook? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The people of this country have a great deal of + intelligence. Tariff and free trade and protection and home manufactures + and American industries—all these things will be discussed in every + schoolhouse of the country, and in thousands and thousands of political + meetings, and when next November comes you will see the Democratic party + overthrown and swept out of power by a cyclone. All other questions will + be lost sight of. Even the Prohibitionists would rather drink beer in a + prosperous country than burst with cold water and hard times. + </p> + <p> + The preservation of what we have will be the great question. This is the + richest country and the most prosperous country, and I believe that the + people have sense enough to continue the policy that has given them those + results. I never want to see the civilization of the Old World, or rather + the barbarism of the Old World, gain a footing on this continent. I am an + American. I believe in American ideas—that is to say, in equal + rights, and in the education and civilization of all the people. + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York Press</i>, June 3, 1888. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0071" id="link0071"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + CLEVELAND AND THURMAN. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the Democratic nominations? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In the first place, I hope that this campaign is to be + fought on the issues involved, and not on the private characters of the + candidates. All that they have done as politicians—all measures that + they have favored or opposed—these are the proper subjects of + criticism; in all other respects I think it better to let the candidates + alone. I care but little about the private character of Mr. Cleveland or + of Mr. Thurman. The real question is, what do they stand for? What policy + do they advocate? What are the reasons for and against the adoption of the + policy they propose? + </p> + <p> + I do not regard Cleveland as personally popular. He has done nothing, so + far as I know, calculated to endear him to the popular heart. He certainly + is not a man of enthusiasm. He has said nothing of a striking or forcible + character. His messages are exceedingly commonplace. He is not a man of + education, of wide reading, of refined tastes, or of general cultivation. + He has some firmness and a good deal of obstinacy, and he was exceedingly + fortunate in his marriage. + </p> + <p> + Four years ago he was distinctly opposed to a second term. He was then + satisfied that no man should be elected President more than once. He was + then fearful that a President might use his office, his appointing power, + to further his own ends instead of for the good of the people. He started, + undoubtedly, with that idea in his mind. He was going to carry out the + civil service doctrine to the utmost. But when he had been President a few + months he was exceedingly unpopular with his party. The Democrats who + elected him had been out of office for twenty-five years. During all those + years they had watched the Republicans sitting at the national banquet. + Their appetites had grown keener and keener, and they expected when the + 4th of March, 1885, came that the Republicans would be sent from the table + and that they would be allowed to tuck the napkins under their chins. The + moment Cleveland got at the head of the table he told his hungry followers + that there was nothing for them, and he allowed the Republicans to go on + as usual. + </p> + <p> + In a little while he began to hope for a second term, and gradually the + civil service notion faded from his mind. He stuck to it long enough to + get the principal mugwump papers committed to him and to his policy; long + enough to draw their fire and to put them in a place where they could not + honorably retreat without making themselves liable to the charge of having + fought only for the loaves and fishes. As a matter of fact, no men were + hungrier for office than the gentlemen who had done so much for civil + service reform. They were so earnest in the advocacy of that principle + that they insisted that only their followers should have place; but the + real rank and file, the men who had been Democrats through all the + disastrous years, and who had prayed and fasted, became utterly disgusted + with Mr. Cleveland's administration and they were not slow to express + their feelings. Mr. Cleveland saw that he was in danger of being left with + no supporters, except a few who thought themselves too respectable really + to join the Democratic party. So for the last two years, and especially + the last year, he turned his attention to pacifying the real Democrats. He + is not the choice of the Democratic party. Although unanimously nominated, + I doubt if he was the unanimous choice of a single delegate. + </p> + <p> + Another very great mistake, I think, has been made by Mr. Cleveland. He + seems to have taken the greatest delight in vetoing pension bills, and + they seem to be about the only bills he has examined, and he has examined + them as a lawyer would examine the declaration, brief or plea of his + opponent. He has sought for technicalities, to the end that he might veto + these bills. By this course he has lost the soldier vote, and there is no + way by which he can regain it. Upon this point I regard the President as + exceedingly weak. He has shown about the same feeling toward the soldier + now that he did during the war. He was not with them then either in mind + or body. He is not with them now. His sympathies are on the other side. He + has taken occasion to show his contempt for the Democratic party again and + again. This certainly will not add to his strength. He has treated the old + leaders with great arrogance. He has cared nothing for their advice, for + their opinions, or for their feelings. + </p> + <p> + The principal vestige of monarchy or despotism in our Constitution is the + veto power, and this has been more liberally used by Mr. Cleveland than by + any other President. This shows the nature of the man and how narrow he + is, and through what a small intellectual aperture he views the world. + Nothing is farther from true democracy than this perpetual application of + the veto power. As a matter of fact, it should be abolished, and the + utmost that a President should be allowed to do, would be to return a bill + with his objections, and the bill should then become a law upon being + passed by both houses by a simple majority. This would give the Executive + the opportunity of calling attention to the supposed defects, and getting + the judgment of Congress a second time. + </p> + <p> + I am perfectly satisfied that Mr. Cleveland is not popular with his party. + The noise and confusion of the convention, the cheers and cries, were all + produced and manufactured for effect and for the purpose of starting the + campaign. + </p> + <p> + Now, as to Senator Thurman. During the war he occupied substantially the + same position occupied by Mr. Cleveland. He was opposed to putting down + the Rebellion by force, and as I remember it, he rather justified the + people of the South for going with their States. Ohio was in favor of + putting down the Rebellion, yet Mr. Thurman, by some peculiar logic of his + own, while he justified Southern people for going into rebellion because + they followed their States, justified himself for not following his State. + His State was for the Union. His State was in favor of putting down + rebellion. His State was in favor of destroying slavery. Certainly, if a + man is bound to follow his State, he is equally bound when the State is + right. It is hardly reasonable to say that a man is only bound to follow + his State when his State is wrong; yet this was really the position of + Senator Thurman. + </p> + <p> + I saw the other day that some gentlemen in this city had given as a reason + for thinking that Thurman would strengthen the ticket, that he had always + been right on the financial question. Now, as a matter of fact, he was + always wrong. When it was necessary for the Government to issue + greenbacks, he was a hard money man—he believed in the mint drops—and + if that policy had been carried out, the Rebellion could not have been + suppressed. After the suppression of the Rebellion, and when hundreds and + hundreds of millions of greenbacks were afloat, and the Republican party + proposed to redeem them in gold, and to go back—as it always + intended to do—to hard money—to a gold and silver basis—then + Senator Thurman, holding aloft the red bandanna, repudiated hard money, + opposed resumption, and came out for rag currency as being the best. Let + him change his ideas—put those first that he had last—and you + might say that he was right on the currency question; but when the country + needed the greenback he was opposed to it, and when the country was able + to redeem the greenback, he was opposed to it. + </p> + <p> + It gives me pleasure to say that I regard Senator Thurman as a man of + ability, and I have no doubt that he was coaxed into his last financial + position by the Democratic party, by the necessities of Ohio, and by the + force and direction of the political wind. No matter how much + respectability he adds to the ticket, I do not believe that he will give + any great strength. In the first place, he is an old man. He has + substantially finished his career. Young men cannot attach themselves to + him, because he has no future. His following is not an army of the young + and ambitious—it is rather a funeral procession. Yet, + notwithstanding this fact, he will furnish most of the enthusiasm for this + campaign—and that will be done with his handkerchief. The Democratic + banner is Thurman's red bandanna. I do not believe that it will be + possible for the Democracy to carry Ohio by reason of Thurman's + nomination, and I think the failure to nominate Gray or some good man from + that State, will lose Indiana. So, while I have nothing to say against + Senator Thurman, nothing against his integrity or his ability, still, + under the circumstances, I do not think his nomination a strong one. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think that the nominations have been well received + throughout the United States? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Not as well as in England. I see that all the Tory papers + regard the nominations as excellent—especially that of Cleveland. + Every Englishman who wants Ireland turned into a penitentiary, and every + Irishman to be treated as a convict, is delighted with the action of the + St. Louis convention. England knows what she wants. Her market is growing + small. A few years ago she furnished manufactured articles to a vast + portion of the world. Millions of her customers have become ingenious + enough to manufacture many things that they need, so the next thing + England did was to sell them the machinery. Now they are beginning to make + their own machinery. Consequently, English trade is falling off. She must + have new customers. Nothing would so gratify her as to have sixty millions + of Americans buy her wares. If she could see our factories still and dead; + if she could put out the fires of our furnaces and forges; there would + come to her the greatest prosperity she has ever known. She would fatten + on our misfortunes —grow rich and powerful and arrogant upon our + poverty. We would become her servants. We would raise the raw material + with ignorant labor and allow her children to reap all the profit of its + manufacture, and in the meantime to become intelligent and cultured while + we grew poor and ignorant. + </p> + <p> + The greatest blow that can be inflicted upon England is to keep her + manufactured articles out of the United States. Sixty millions of + Americans buy and use more than five hundred millions of Asiatics —buy + and use more than all of China, all of India and all of Africa. One + civilized man has a thousand times the wants of a savage or of a + semi-barbarian. Most of the customers of England want a few yards of + calico, some cheap jewelry, a little powder, a few knives and a few + gallons of orthodox rum. + </p> + <p> + To-day the United States is the greatest market in the world. The commerce + between the States is almost inconceivable in its immensity. In order that + you may have some idea of the commerce of this country, it is only + necessary to remember one fact. We have railroads enough engaged in this + commerce to make six lines around the globe. The addition of a million + Americans to our population gives us a better market than a monopoly of + ten millions of Asiatics. England, with her workhouses, with her labor + that barely exists, wishes this market, and wishes to destroy the + manufactures of America, and she expects Irish-Americans to assist her in + this patriotic business. + </p> + <p> + Now, as to the enthusiasm in this country. I fail to see it. The + nominations have fallen flat. It has been known for a long time that + Cleveland was to be nominated. That has all been discounted, and the + nomination of Judge Thurman has been received in a quite matter-of-fact + way. It may be that his enthusiasm was somewhat dampened by what might be + called the appearance above the horizon of the morning star of this + campaign—Oregon. What a star to rise over the work of the St. Louis + convention! What a prophecy for Democrats to commence business with! + Oregon, with the free trade issue, seven thousand to eight thousand + Republican majority—the largest ever given by that State—Oregon + speaks for the Pacific Coast. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the Democratic platform? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Mr. Watterson was kind enough to say that before they took + the roof off of the house they were going to give the occupants a chance + to get out. By the "house" I suppose he means the great workshop of + America. By the "roof" he means protection; and by the "occupants" the + mechanics. He is not going to turn them out at once, or take the roof off + in an instant, but this is to be done gradually. + </p> + <p> + In other words, they will remove it shingle by shingle or tile by tile, + until it becomes so leaky or so unsafe that the occupants— that is + to say, the mechanics, will leave the building. + </p> + <p> + The first thing in the platform is a reaffirmation of the platform of + 1884, and an unqualified endorsement of President Cleveland's message on + the tariff. And if President Cleveland's message has any meaning whatever, + it means free trade—not instantly, it may be—but that is the + object and the end to be attained. All his reasoning, if reasoning it can + be called, is in favor of absolute free trade. The issue is fairly made—shall + American labor be protected, or must the American laborer take his chances + with the labor market of the world? Must he stand upon an exact par with + the laborers of Belgium and England and Germany, not only, but with the + slaves and serfs of other countries? Must he be reduced to the diet of the + old country? Is he to have meat on holidays and a reasonably good dinner + on Christmas, and live the rest of the year on crusts, crumbs, scraps, + skimmed milk, potatoes, turnips, and a few greens that he can steal from + the corners of fences? Is he to rely for meat, on poaching, and then is he + to be transported to some far colony for the crime of catching a rabbit? + Are our workingmen to wear wooden shoes? + </p> + <p> + Now, understand me, I do not believe that the Democrats think that free + trade would result in disaster. Their minds are so constituted that they + really believe that free trade would be a great blessing. I am not calling + in question their honesty. I am simply disputing the correctness of their + theory. It makes no difference, as a matter of fact, whether they are + honest or dishonest. Free trade established by honest people would be just + as injurious as if established by dishonest people. So there is no + necessity of raising the question of intention. Consequently, I admit that + they are doing the best they know now. This is not admitting much, but it + is something, as it tends to take from the discussion all ill feeling. + </p> + <p> + We all know that the tariff protects special interests in particular + States. Louisiana is not for free trade. It may be for free trade in + everything except sugar. It is willing that the rest of the country should + pay an additional cent or two a pound on sugar for its benefit, and while + receiving the benefit it does not wish to bear its part of the burden. If + the other States protect the sugar interests in Louisiana, certainly that + State ought to be willing to protect the wool interest in Ohio, the lead + and hemp interest in Missouri, the lead and wool interest in Colorado, the + lumber interest in Minnesota, the salt and lumber interest in Michigan, + the iron interest in Pennsylvania, and so I might go on with a list of the + States—because each one has something that it wishes to have + protected. + </p> + <p> + It sounds a little strange to hear a Democratic convention cry out that + the party "is in favor of the maintenance of an indissoluble union of free + and indestructible States." Only a little while ago the Democratic party + regarded it as the height of tyranny to coerce a free State. Can it be + said that a State is "free" that is absolutely governed by the Nation? Is + a State free that can make no treaty with any other State or country—that + is not permitted to coin money or to declare war? Why should such a State + be called free? The truth is that the States are not free in that sense. + The Republican party believes that this is a Nation and that the national + power is the highest, and that every citizen owes the highest allegiance + to the General Government and not to his State. In other words, we are not + Virginians or Mississippians or Delawareans —we are Americans. The + great Republic is a free Nation, and the States are but parts of that + Nation. The doctrine of State Sovereignty was born of the institution of + slavery. In the history of our country, whenever anything wrong was to be + done, this doctrine of State Sovereignty was appealed to. It protected the + slave-trade until the year 1808. It passed the Fugitive Slave Law. It made + every citizen in the North a catcher of his fellow-man—made it the + duty of free people to enslave others. This doctrine of State Rights was + appealed to for the purpose of polluting the Territories with the + institution of slavery. To deprive a man of his liberty, to put him back + into slavery, State lines were instantly obliterated; but whenever the + Government wanted to protect one of its citizens from outrage, then the + State lines became impassable barriers, and the sword of justice fell in + twain across the line of a State. + </p> + <p> + People forget that the National Government is the creature of the people. + The real sovereign is the people themselves. Presidents and congressmen + and judges are the creatures of the people. If we had a governing class—if + men were presidents or senators by virtue of birth—then we might + talk about the danger of centralization; but if the people are + sufficiently intelligent to govern themselves, they will never create a + government for the destruction of their liberties, and they are just as + able to protect their rights in the General Government as they are in the + States. If you say that the sovereignty of the State protects labor, you + might as well say that the sovereignty of the county protects labor in the + State and that the sovereignty of the town protects labor in the county. + </p> + <p> + Of all subjects in the world the Democratic party should avoid speaking of + "a critical period of our financial affairs, resulting from over + taxation." How did taxation become necessary? Who created the vast debt + that American labor must pay? Who made this taxation of thousands of + millions necessary? Why were the greenbacks issued? Why were the bonds + sold? Who brought about "a critical period of our financial affairs"? How + has the Democratic party "averted disaster"? How could there be a disaster + with a vast surplus in the treasury? Can you find in the graveyard of + nations this epitaph: "Died of a Surplus"? Has any nation ever been known + to perish because it had too much gold and too much silver, and because + its credit was better than that of any other nation on the earth? The + Democrats seem to think—and it is greatly to their credit—that + they have prevented the destruction of the Government when the treasury + was full—when the vaults were overflowing. What would they have done + had the vaults been empty? Let them wrestle with the question of poverty; + let them then see how the Democratic party would succeed. When it is + necessary to create credit, to inspire confidence, not only in our own + people, but in the nations of the world—which of the parties is best + adapted for the task? The Democratic party congratulates itself that it + has not been ruined by a Republican surplus! What good boys we are! We + have not been able to throw away our legacy! + </p> + <p> + Is it not a little curious that the convention plumed itself on having + paid out more for pensions and bounties to the soldiers and sailors of the + Republic than was ever paid before during an equal period? It goes wild in + its pretended enthusiasm for the President who has vetoed more pension + bills than all the other Presidents put together. + </p> + <p> + The platform informs us that "the Democratic party has adopted and + consistently pursued and affirmed a prudent foreign policy, preserving + peace with all nations." Does it point with pride to the Mexican fiasco, + or does it rely entirely upon the great fishery triumph? What has the + administration done—what has it accomplished in the field of + diplomacy? + </p> + <p> + When we come to civil service, about how many Federal officials were at + the St. Louis convention? About how many have taken part in the recent + nominations? In other words, who has been idle? + </p> + <p> + We have recently been told that the wages of workingmen are just as high + in the old country as in this, when you take into consideration the cost + of living. We have always been told by all the free trade papers and + orators, that the tariff has no bearing whatever upon wages, and yet, the + Democrats have not succeeded in convincing themselves. I find in their + platform this language: "A fair and careful revision of our tax laws, with + due allowance for the difference between the wages of American and foreign + labor, must promote and encourage every branch of such industries and + enterprises by giving them the assurance of an extended market and steady + and continuous operations." + </p> + <p> + It would seem from this that the Democratic party admits that wages are + higher here than in foreign countries. Certainly they do not mean to say + that they are lower. If they are higher here than in foreign countries, + the question arises, why are they higher? If you took off the tariff, the + presumption is that they would be as low here as anywhere else, because + this very Democratic convention says: "A fair and careful revision of our + tax laws, with due allowance for the difference between wages." In other + words, they would keep tariff enough on to protect our workingmen from the + low wages of the foreigner—consequently, we have the admission of + the Democratic party that in order to keep wages in this country higher + than they are in Belgium, in Italy, in England and in Germany, we must + protect home labor. Then follows the <i>non sequitur</i>, which is a + Democratic earmark. They tell us that by keeping a tariff, "making due + allowance for the difference between wages, all the industries and + enterprises would be encouraged and promoted by giving them the assurance + of an extended market." What does the word "extended" mean? If it means + anything, it means a market in other countries. In other words, we will + put the tariff so low that the wages of American workingmen will be so low + that he can compete with the laborers of other countries; otherwise his + market could not be "extended." What does this mean? There is evidently a + lack of thought here. The two things cannot be accomplished in that way. + If the tariff raises American wages, the American cannot compete in + foreign markets with the men who work for half the price. What may be the + final result is another question. American industry properly protected, + American genius properly fostered, may invent ways and means—such + wonderful machinery, such quick, inexpensive processes, that in time + American genius may produce at a less rate than any other country, for the + reason that the laborers of other countries will not be as intelligent, + will not be as independent, will not have the same ambition. + </p> + <p> + Fine phrases will not deceive the people of this country. The American + mechanic already has a market of sixty millions of people, and, as I said + before, the best market in the world. This country is now so rich, so + prosperous, that it is the greatest market of the earth, even for + luxuries. It is the best market for pictures, for works of art. It is the + best market for music and song. It is the best market for dramatic genius, + and it is the best market for skilled labor, the best market for common + labor, and in this country the poor man to-day has the best chance—he + can look forward to becoming the proprietor of a home, of some land, to + independence, to respectability, and to an old age without want and + without disgrace. + </p> + <p> + The platform, except upon this question of free trade, means very little. + There are other features in it which I have not at present time to + examine, but shall do so hereafter. I want to take it up point by point + and find really what it means, what its scope is, and what the intentions + were of the gentlemen who made it. + </p> + <p> + But it may be proper to say here, that in my judgment it is a very weak + and flimsy document, as Victor Hugo would say, "badly cut and badly + sewed." + </p> + <p> + Of course, I know that the country will exist whatever party may be in + power. I know that all our blessings do not come from laws, or from the + carrying into effect of certain policies, and probably I could pay no + greater compliment to any country than to say that even eight years of + Democratic rule cannot materially affect her destiny. + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York Press</i>, June 10, 1888. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0072" id="link0072"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE REPUBLICAN PLATFORM OF 1888. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the signs of the times so far as the + campaign has progressed? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The party is now going through a period of + misrepresentation. Every absurd meaning that can be given to any + combination of words will be given to every plank of the platform. In the + heat of partisan hatred every plank will look warped and cracked. A great + effort is being made to show that the Republican party is in favor of + intemperance,—that the great object now is to lessen the price of + all intoxicants and increase the cost of all the necessaries of life. The + papers that are for nothing but reform of everything and everybody except + themselves, are doing their utmost to show that the Republican party is + the enemy of honesty and temperance. + </p> + <p> + The other day, at a Republican ratification meeting, I stated among other + things, that we could not make great men and great women simply by keeping + them out of temptation—that nobody would think of tying the hands of + a person behind them and then praise him for not picking pockets; that + great people were great enough to withstand temptation, and in that + connection I made this statement: "Temperance goes hand in hand with + liberty"—the idea being that when a chain is taken from the body an + additional obligation is perceived by the mind. These good papers—the + papers that believe in honest politics—stated that I said: + "Temperance goes hand in hand with liquor." This was not only in the + reports of the meeting, but this passage was made the subject of several + editorials. It hardly seems possible that any person really thought that + such a statement had been expressed. The Republican party does not want + free whiskey —it wants free men; and a great many people in the + Republican party are great enough to know that temperance does go hand in + hand with liberty; they are great enough to know that all legislation as + to what we shall eat, as to what we shall drink, and as to wherewithal we + shall be clothed, partakes of the nature of petty, irritating and annoying + tyranny. They also know that the natural result is to fill a country with + spies, hypocrites and pretenders, and that when a law is not in accordance + with an enlightened public sentiment, it becomes either a dead letter, or, + when a few fanatics endeavor to enforce it, a demoralizer of courts, of + juries and of people. + </p> + <p> + The attack upon the platform by temperance people is doing no harm, for + the reason that long before November comes these people will see the + mistake they have made. It seems somewhat curious that the Democrats + should attack the platform if they really believe that it means free + whiskey. + </p> + <p> + The tax was levied during the war. It was a war measure. The Government + was <i>in extremis</i>, and for that reason was obliged to obtain a + revenue from every possible article of value. The war is over; the + necessity has disappeared; consequently the Government should return to + the methods of peace. We have too many Government officials. Let us get + rid of collectors and gaugers and inspectors. Let us do away with all this + machinery, and leave the question to be settled by the State. If the + temperance people themselves would take a second thought, they would see + that when the Government collects eighty or ninety million dollars from a + tax on whiskey, the traffic becomes entrenched, it becomes one of the + pillars of the State, one of the great sources of revenue. Let the States + attend to this question, and it will be a matter far easier to deal with. + </p> + <p> + The Prohibitionists are undoubtedly honest, and their object is to destroy + the traffic, to prevent the manufacture of whiskey. Can they do this as + long as the Government collects ninety million dollars per annum from that + one source? If there is anything whatever in this argument, is it not that + the traffic pays a bribe of ninety million dollars a year for its life? + Will not the farmers say to the temperance men: "The distilleries pay the + taxes, the distilleries raise the price of corn; is it not better for the + General Government to look to another direction for its revenues and leave + the States to deal as they may see proper with this question?" + </p> + <p> + With me, it makes no difference what is done with the liquor— + whether it is used in the arts or not—it is a question of policy. + There is no moral principle involved on our side of the question, to say + the least of it. If it is a crime to make and sell intoxicating liquors, + the Government, by licensing persons to make and sell, becomes a party to + the crime. If one man poisons another, no matter how much the poison + costs, the crime is the same; and if the person from whom the poison was + purchased knew how it was to be used, he is also a murderer. + </p> + <p> + There have been many reformers in this world, and they have seemed to + imagine that people will do as they say. They think that you can use + people as you do bricks or stones; that you can lay them up in walls and + they will remain where they are placed; but the truth is, you cannot do + this. The bricks are not satisfied with each other—they go away in + the night—in the morning there is no wall. Most of these reformers + go up what you might call the Mount Sinai of their own egotism, and there, + surrounded by the clouds of their own ignorance, they meditate upon the + follies and the frailties of their fellow-men and then come down with ten + commandments for their neighbors. + </p> + <p> + All this talk about the Republican platform being in favor of + intemperance, so far as the Democratic party is concerned, is pure, + unadulterated hypocrisy—nothing more, nothing less. So far as the + Prohibitionists are concerned, they may be perfectly honest, but, if they + will think a moment, they will see how perfectly illogical they are. No + one can help sympathizing with any effort honestly made to do away with + the evil of intemperance. I know that many believe that these evils can be + done away with by legislation. While I sympathize with the objects that + these people wish to attain, I do not believe in the means they suggest. + As life becomes valuable, people will become temperate, because they will + take care of themselves. Temperance is born of the countless influences of + civilization. Character cannot be forced upon anybody; it is a growth, the + seeds of which are within. Men cannot be forced into real temperance any + more than they can be frightened into real morality. You may frighten a + man to that degree that he will not do a certain thing, but you cannot + scare him badly enough to prevent his wanting to do that thing. + Reformation begins on the inside, and the man refrains because he + perceives that he ought to refrain, not because his neighbors say that he + ought to refrain. No one would think of praising convicts in jail for + being regular at their meals, or for not staying out nights; and it seems + to me that when the Prohibitionists—when the people who are really + in favor of temperance—look the ground all over they will see that + it is far better to support the Republican party than to throw their votes + away; and the Republicans will see that it is simply a proposition to go + back to the original methods of collecting revenue for the Government—that + it is simply abandoning the measures made necessary by war, and that it is + giving to the people the largest liberty consistent with the needs of the + Government, and that it is only leaving these questions where in time of + peace they properly belong —to the States themselves. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think that the Knights of Labor will cut any + material figure in this election? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The Knights of Labor will probably occupy substantially the + same position as other laborers and other mechanics. If they clearly see + that the policy advocated by the Republican party is to their interest, + that it will give them better wages than the policy advocated by the + Democrats, then they will undoubtedly support our ticket. There is more or + less irritation between employers and employed. All men engaged in + manufacturing and neither good nor generous. Many of them get work for as + little as possible, and sell its product for all they can get. It is + impossible to adopt a policy that will not by such people be abused. Many + of them would like to see the working man toil for twelve hours or + fourteen or sixteen in each day. Many of them wonder why they need sleep + or food, and are perfectly astonished when they ask for pay. In some + instances, undoubtedly, the working men will vote against their own + interests simply to get even with such employers. + </p> + <p> + Some laboring men have been so robbed, so tyrannized over, that they would + be perfectly willing to feel for the pillars and take a certain delight in + a destruction that brought ruin even to themselves. Such manufacturers, + however, I believe to be in a minority, and the laboring men, under the + policy of free trade, would be far more in their power. When wages fall + below a certain point, then comes degradation, loss of manhood, serfdom + and slavery. If any man has the right to vote for his own interests, + certainly the man who labors is that man, and every working man having in + his will a part of the sovereignty of this nation, having within him a + part of the lawmaking power, should have the intelligence and courage to + vote for his own interests; he should vote for good wages; he should vote + for a policy that would enable him to lay something by for the winter of + his life, that would enable him to earn enough to educate his children, + enough to give him a home and a fireside. + </p> + <p> + He need not do this in anger or for revenge, but because it is just, + because it is right, and because the working people are in a majority. + They ought to control the world, because they have made the world what it + is. They have given everything there is of value. Labor plows every field, + builds every house, fashions everything of use, and when that labor is + guided by intelligence the world is prosperous. + </p> + <p> + He who thinks good thoughts is a laborer—one of the greatest. The + man who invented the reaper will be harvesting the fields for thousands of + years to come. If labor is abused in this country the laborers have it + within their power to defend themselves. + </p> + <p> + All my sympathies are with the men who toil. I shed very few tears over + bankers and millionaires and corporations—they can take care of + themselves. My sympathies are with the man who has nothing to sell but his + strength; nothing to sell but his muscle and his intelligence; who has no + capital except that which his mother gave him—a capital he must sell + every day; my sympathies are with him; and I want him to have a good + market; and I want it so that he can sell the work for more than enough to + take care of him to-morrow. + </p> + <p> + I believe that no corporation should be allowed to exist except for the + benefit of the whole people. The Government should always act for the + benefit of all, and when the Government gives a part of its power to an + aggregation of individuals, the accomplishment of some public good should + justify the giving of that power; and whenever a corporation becomes + subversive of the very end for which it was created, the Government should + put an end to its life. + </p> + <p> + So I believe that after these matters, these issues have been discussed—when + something is understood about the effect of a tariff, the effect of + protection, the laboring people of this country will be on the side of the + Republican party. The Republican party is always trying to do something—trying + to take a step in advance. Persons who care for nothing except themselves—who + wish to make no effort except for themselves—are its natural + enemies. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of Mr. Mills' Fourth of July speech on + his bill? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Certain allowances should always be made for the Fourth of + July. What Mr. Mills says with regard to free trade depends, I imagine, + largely on where he happens to be. You remember the old story about the <i>Moniteur</i>. + When Napoleon escaped from Elba that paper said: "The ogre has escaped." + And from that moment the epithets grew a little less objectionable as + Napoleon advanced, and at last the <i>Moniteur</i> cried out: "The Emperor + has reached Paris." I hardly believe that Mr. Mills would call his bill in + Texas a war tariff measure. He might commence in New York with that + description, but as he went South that language, in my judgment, would + change, and when he struck the Brazos I think the bill would be described + as the nearest possible approach to free trade. + </p> + <p> + Mr. Mills takes the ground that if raw material comes here free of duty, + then we can manufacture that raw material and compete with other countries + in the markets of the world—that is to say, under his bill. Now, + other countries can certainly get the raw material as cheaply as we can, + especially those countries in which the raw material is raised; and if + wages are less in other countries than in ours, the raw material being the + same, the product must cost more with us than with them. Consequently we + cannot compete with foreign countries simply by getting the raw material + at the same price; we must be able to manufacture it as cheaply as they, + and we can do that only by cutting down the wages of the American + workingmen. Because, to have raw material at the same price as other + nations, is only a part of the problem. The other part is how cheaply can + we manufacture it? And that depends upon wages. If wages are twenty-five + cents a day, then we can compete with those nations where wages are + twenty-five cents a day; but if our wages are five or six times as high, + then the twenty-five cent labor will supply the market. There is no + possible way of putting ourselves on an equality with other countries in + the markets of the world, except by putting American labor on an equality + with the other labor of the world. Consequently, we cannot obtain a + foreign market without lessening our wages. No proposition can be plainer + than this. + </p> + <p> + It cannot be said too often that the real prosperity of a country depends + upon the well-being of those who labor. That country is not prosperous + where a few are wealthy and have all the luxuries that the imagination can + suggest, and where the millions are in want, clothed in rags, and housed + in tenements not fit for wild beasts. The value of our property depends on + the civilization of our people. If the people are happy and contented, if + the workingman receives good wages, then our houses and our farms are + valuable. If the people are discontented, if the workingmen are in want, + then our property depreciates from day to day, and national bankruptcy + will only be a question of time. + </p> + <p> + If Mr. Mills has given a true statement with regard to the measure + proposed by him, what relation does that measure bear to the President's + message? What has it to do with the Democratic platform? If Mr. Mills has + made no mistake, the President wrote a message substantially in favor of + free trade. The Democratic party ratified and indorsed that message, and + at the same time ratified and indorsed the Mills bill. Now, the message + was for free trade, and the Mills bill, according to Mr. Mills, is for the + purpose of sustaining the war tariff. They have either got the wrong child + or the wrong parents. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I see that some people are objecting to your taking any + part in politics, on account of your religious opinion? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The Democratic party has always been pious. If it is noted + for anything it is for its extreme devotion. You have no idea how many + Democrats wear out the toes of their shoes praying. I suppose that in this + country there ought to be an absolute divorce between church and state and + without any alimony being allowed to the church; and I have always + supposed that the Republican party was perfectly willing that anybody + should vote its ticket who believed in its principles. The party was not + established, as I understand it, in the interest of any particular + denomination; it was established to promote and preserve the freedom of + the American citizen everywhere. Its first object was to prevent the + spread of human slavery; its second object was to put down the Rebellion + and preserve the Union; its third object was the utter destruction of + human slavery everywhere, and its fourth object is to preserve not only + the fruit of all that it has won, but to protect American industry to the + end that the Republic may not only be free, but prosperous and happy. In + this great work all are invited to join, no matter whether Catholics or + Presbyterians or Methodists or Infidels—believers or unbelievers. + The object is to have a majority of the people of the United States in + favor of human liberty, in favor of justice and in favor of an intelligent + American policy. + </p> + <p> + I am not what is called strictly orthodox, and yet I am liberal enough to + vote for a Presbyterian, and if a Presbyterian is not liberal enough to + stand by a Republican, no matter what his religious opinions may be, then + the Presbyterian is not as liberal as the Republican party, and he is not + as liberal as an unbeliever; in other words, he is not a manly man. + </p> + <p> + I object to no man who is running for office on the ticket of my party on + account of his religious convictions. I care nothing about the church of + which he is a member. That is his business. That is an individual matter—something + with which the State has no right to interfere—something with which + no party can rightfully have anything to do. These great questions are + left open to discussion. Every church must take its chance in the open + field of debate. No belief has the right to draw the sword—no dogma + the right to resort to force. The moment a church asks for the help of the + State, it confesses its weakness, it confesses its inability to answer the + arguments against it. + </p> + <p> + I believe in the absolute equality before the law, of all religions and + all metaphysical theories; and I would no more control those things by law + than I would endeavor to control the arts and the sciences by legislation. + Man admires the beautiful, and what is beautiful to one may not be to + another, and this inequality or this difference cannot be regulated by + law. + </p> + <p> + The same is true of what is called religious belief. I am willing to give + all others every right that I claim for myself, and if they are not + willing to give me the rights they claim for themselves, they are not + civilized. + </p> + <p> + No man acknowledges the truth of my opinions because he votes the same + ticket that I do, and I certainly do not acknowledge the correctness of + the opinions of others because I vote the Republican ticket. We are + Republicans together. Upon certain political questions we agree, upon + other questions we disagree—and that is all. Only religious people, + who have made up their minds to vote the Democratic ticket, will raise an + objection of this kind, and they will raise the objection simply as a + pretence, simply for the purpose of muddying the water while they escape. + </p> + <p> + Of course there may be some exceptions. There are a great many insane + people out of asylums. If the Republican party does not stand for absolute + intellectual liberty, it had better disband. And why should we take so + much pains to free the body, and then enslave the mind? I believe in + giving liberty to both. Give every man the right to labor, and give him + the right to reap the harvest of his toil. Give every man the right to + think, and to reap the harvest of his brain—that is to say, give him + the right to express his thoughts. + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York Press</i>, July 8, 1888. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0073" id="link0073"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + JAMES G. BLAINE AND POLITICS. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I see that there has lately been published a long account + of the relations between Mr. Blaine and yourself, and the reason given for + your failure to support him for the nomination in 1884 and 1888? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Every little while some donkey writes a long article + pretending to tell all that happened between Mr. Blaine and myself. I have + never seen any article on the subject that contained any truth. They are + always the invention of the writer or of somebody who told him. The last + account is more than usually idiotic. An unpleasant word has never passed + between Mr. Blaine and myself. We have never had any falling out. I never + asked Mr. Blaine's influence for myself. I never asked President Hayes or + Garfield or Arthur for any position whatever, and I have never asked Mr. + Cleveland for any appointment under the civil service. + </p> + <p> + With regard to the German Mission, about which so much has been said, all + that I ever did in regard to that was to call on Secretary Evarts and + inform him that there was no place in the gift of the administration that + I would accept. I could not afford to throw away a good many thousand + dollars a year for the sake of an office. So I say again that I never + asked, or dreamed of asking, any such favor of Mr. Blaine. The favors have + been exactly the other way— from me, and not from him. So there is + not the slightest truth in the charge that there was some difference + between our families. + </p> + <p> + I have great respect for Mrs. Blaine, have always considered her an + extremely good and sensible woman; our relations have been of the + friendliest character, and such relations have always existed between all + the members of both families, so far as I know. Nothing could be more + absurd that the charge that there was some feeling growing out of our + social relations. We do not depend upon others to help us socially; we + need no help, and if we did we would not accept it. The whole story about + there having been any lack of politeness or kindness is without the + slightest foundation. + </p> + <p> + In 1884 I did not think that Mr. Blaine could be elected. I thought the + same at the Chicago convention this year. I know that he has a great + number of ardent admirers and of exceedingly self-denying and unselfish + friends. I believe that he has more friends than any other man in the + Republican party; but he also has very bitter enemies—enemies with + influence. Taking this into consideration, and believing that the success + of the party was more important than the success of any individual, I was + in favor of nominating some man who would poll the entire Republican vote. + This feeling did not grow out of any hostility to any man, but simply out + of a desire for Republican success. In other words, I endeavored to take + an unprejudiced view of the situation. Under no circumstances would I + underrate the ability and influence of Mr. Blaine, nor would I endeavor to + deprecate the services he has rendered to the Republican party and to the + country. But by this time it ought to be understood that I belong to no + man, that I am the proprietor of myself. + </p> + <p> + There are two kinds of people that I have no use for—leaders and + followers. The leader should be principle; the leader should be a great + object to be accomplished. The follower should be the man dedicated to the + accomplishment of a noble end. He who simply follows persons gains no + honor and is incapable of giving honor even to the one he follows. There + are certain things to be accomplished and these things are the leaders. We + want in this country an American system; we wish to carry into operation, + into practical effect, ideas, policies, theories in harmony with our + surroundings. + </p> + <p> + This is a great country filled with intelligent, industrious, restless, + ambitious people. Millions came here because they were dissatisfied with + the laws, the institutions, the tyrannies, the absurdities, the poverty, + the wretchedness and the infamous spirit of caste found in the Old World. + Millions of these people are thinking for themselves, and only the people + who can teach, who can give new facts, who can illuminate, should be + regarded as political benefactors. This country is, in my judgment, in all + that constitutes true greatness, the nearest civilized of any country. + Only yesterday the German Empire robbed a woman of her child; this was + done as a political necessity. Nothing is taken into consideration except + some move on the political chess-board. The feelings of a mother are + utterly disregarded; they are left out of the question; they are not even + passed upon. They are naturally ignored, because in these governments only + the unnatural is natural. + </p> + <p> + In our political life we have substantially outgrown the duel. There are + some small, insignificant people who still think it important to defend a + worthless reputation on the field of "honor," but for respectable members + of the Senate, of the House, of the Cabinet, to settle a political + argument with pistols would render them utterly contemptible in this + country; that is to say, the opinion that governs, that dominates in this + country, holds the duel in abhorrence and in contempt. What could be more + idiotic, absurd, childish, than the duel between Boulanger and Floquet? + What was settled? It needed no duel to convince the world that Floquet is + a man of courage. The same may be said of Boulanger. He has faced death + upon many fields. Why, then, resort to the duel? If Boulanger's wound + proves fatal, that certainly does not tend to prove that Floquet told the + truth, and if Boulanger recovers, it does not tend to prove that he did + not tell the truth. + </p> + <p> + Nothing is settled. Two men controlled by vanity, that individual vanity + born of national vanity, try to kill each other; the public ready to + reward the victor; the cause of the quarrel utterly ignored; the hands of + the public ready to applaud the successful swordsman —and yet France + is called a civilized nation. No matter how serious the political + situation may be, no matter if everything depends upon one man, that man + is at the mercy of anyone in opposition who may see fit to challenge him. + The greatest general at the head of their armies may be forced to fight a + duel with a nobody. Such ideas, such a system, keeps a nation in peril and + makes every cause, to a greater or less extent, depend upon the sword or + the bullet of a criminal. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Press</i>, New York, July 16, 1888. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0074" id="link0074"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE MILLS BILL. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What, in your opinion, is the significance of the vote on + the Mills Bill recently passed in the House? In this I find there were one + hundred and sixty-two for it, and one hundred and forty-nine against it; + of these, two Republicans voted for, and five Democrats against. + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In the first place, I think it somewhat doubtful whether + the bill could have been passed if Mr. Randall had been well. His sickness + had much to do with this vote. Had he been present to have taken care of + his side, to have kept his forces in hand, he, in my judgment, taking into + consideration his wonderful knowledge of parliamentary tactics, would have + defeated this bill. + </p> + <p> + It is somewhat hard to get the average Democrat, in the absence of his + leader, to throw away the prospect of patronage. Most members of Congress + have to pay tolerably strict attention to their political fences. The + President, although clinging with great tenacity to the phrase "civil + service," has in all probability pulled every string he could reach for + the purpose of compelling the Democratic members not only to stand in + line, but to answer promptly to their names. Every Democrat who has shown + independence has been stepped on just to the extent he could be reached; + but many members, had the leader been on the floor—and a leader like + Randall—would have followed him. + </p> + <p> + There are very few congressional districts in the United States not + intensely Democratic where the people want nothing protected. There are a + few districts where nothing grows except ancient politics, where they + cultivate only the memory of what never ought to have been, where the + subject of protection has not yet reached. + </p> + <p> + The impudence requisite to pass the Mills Bill is something phenomenal. + Think of the Representatives from Louisiana saying to the ranchmen of the + West and to the farmers of Ohio that wool must be on the free list, but + that for the sake of preserving the sugar interest of Louisiana and a + little portion of Texas, all the rest of the United States must pay + tribute. + </p> + <p> + Everybody admits that Louisiana is not very well adapted by nature for + raising sugar, for the reason that the cane has to be planted every year, + and every third year the frost puts in an appearance just a little before + the sugar. Now, while I think personally that the tariff on sugar has + stimulated the inventive genius of the country to find other ways of + producing that which is universally needed; and while I believe that it + will not be long until we shall produce every pound of sugar that we + consume, and produce it cheaper than we buy it now, I am satisfied that in + time and at no distant day sugar will be made in this country extremely + cheap, not only from beets, but from sorghum and corn, and it may be from + other products. At the same time this is no excuse for Louisiana, neither + is it any excuse for South Carolina asking for a tariff on rice, and at + the same time wishing to leave some other industry in the United States, + in which many more millions have been invested, absolutely without + protection. + </p> + <p> + Understand, I am not opposed to a reasonable tariff on rice, provided it + is shown that we can raise rice in this country cheaply and at a profit to + such an extent as finally to become substantially independent of the rest + of the world. What I object to is the impudence of the gentleman who is + raising the rice objecting to the protection of some other industry of far + greater importance than his. + </p> + <p> + After all, the whole thing must be a compromise. We must act together for + the common good. If we wish to make something at the expense of another + State we must allow that State to make something at our expense, or at + least we must be able to show that while it is for our benefit it is also + for the benefit of the country at large. Everybody is entitled to have his + own way up to the point that his way interferes with somebody else. States + are like individuals—their rights are relative—they are + subordinated to the good of the whole country. + </p> + <p> + For many years it has been the American policy to do all that reasonably + could be done to foster American industry, to give scope to American + ingenuity and a field for American enterprise—in other words, a + future for the United States. + </p> + <p> + The Southern States were always in favor of something like free trade. + They wanted to raise cotton for Great Britain—raw material for other + countries. At that time their labor was slave labor, and they could not + hope ever to have skilled labor, because skilled labor cannot be enslaved. + The Southern people knew at that time that if a man was taught enough of + mathematics to understand machinery, to run locomotives, to weave cloth; + it he was taught enough of chemistry even to color calico, it would be + impossible to keep him a slave. Education always was and always will be an + abolitionist. The South advocated a system of harmony with slavery, in + harmony with ignorance—that is to say, a system of free trade, under + which it might raise its raw material. It could not hope to manufacture, + because by making its labor intelligent enough to manufacture it would + lose it. + </p> + <p> + In the North, men are working for themselves, and as I have often said, + they were getting their hands and heads in partnership. Every little + stream that went singing to the sea was made to turn a thousand wheels; + the water became a spinner and a weaver; the water became a blacksmith and + ran a trip hammer; the water was doing the work of millions of men. In + other words, the free people of the North were doing what free people have + always done, going into partnership with the forces of nature. Free people + want good tools, shapely, well made—tools with which the most work + can be done with the least strain. + </p> + <p> + Suppose the South had been in favor of protection; suppose that all over + the Southern country there had been workshops, factories, machines of + every kind; suppose that her people had been as ingenious as the people of + the North; suppose that her hands had been as deft as those that had been + accustomed to skilled labor; then one of two things would have happened; + either the South would have been too intelligent to withdraw from the + Union, or, having withdrawn, it would have had the power to maintain its + position. My opinion is that is would have been too intelligent to + withdraw. + </p> + <p> + When the South seceded it had no factories. The people of the South had + ability, but it was not trained in the direction then necessary. They + could not arm and equip their men; they could not make their clothes; they + could not provide them with guns, with cannon, with ammunition, and with + the countless implements of destruction. They had not the ingenuity; they + had not the means; they could not make cars to carry their troops, or + locomotives to draw them; they had not in their armies the men to build + bridges or to supply the needed transportation. They had nothing but + cotton —that is to say, raw material. So that you might say that the + Rebellion has settled the question as to whether a country is better off + and more prosperous, and more powerful, and more ready for war, that is + filled with industries, or one that depends simply upon the production of + raw material. + </p> + <p> + There is another thing in this connection that should never be forgotten—at + least, not until after the election in November, and then if forgotten, + should be remembered at every subsequent election —and that is, that + the Southern Confederacy had in its Constitution the doctrine of free + trade. Among other things it was fighting for free trade. As a matter of + fact, John C. Calhoun was fighting for free trade; the nullification + business was in the interest of free trade. + </p> + <p> + The Southern people are endeavoring simply to accomplish, with the aid of + New York, what they failed to accomplish on the field. The South is as + "solid" to-day as in 1863. It is now for free trade, and it purposes to + carry the day by the aid of one or two Northern States. History is + repeating itself. It was the same for many years, up to the election of + Abraham Lincoln. + </p> + <p> + Understand me, I do not blame the South for acting in accordance with its + convictions, but the North ought not to be misled. The North ought to + understand what the issue is. The South has a different idea of government—it + is afraid of what it calls "centralization"—it is extremely + sensitive about what are called "State Rights" or the sovereignty of the + State. But the North believes in a Union that is united. The North does + not expect to have any interest antagonistic to the Union. The North has + no mental reservation. The North believes in the Government and in the + Federal system, and the North believes that when a State is admitted into + the Union it becomes a part—an integral part—of the Nation; + that there was a welding, that the State, so far as sovereignty is + concerned, is lost in the Union, and that the people of that State become + citizens of the whole country. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I see that by the vote two of the five Democrats who + voted for protection, and one of the two Republicans who voted for free + trade, were New Yorkers. What do you think is the significance of this + fact in relation to the question as to whether New York will join the + South in the opposition to the industries of the country? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In the city of New York there are a vast number of men + —importers, dealers in foreign articles, representatives of foreign + houses, of foreign interests, of foreign ideas. Of course most of these + people are in favor of free trade. They regard New York as a good market; + beyond that they have not the slightest interest in the United States. + They are in favor of anything that will give them a large profit, or that + will allow them to do the same business with less capital, or that will do + them any good without the slightest regard as to what the effect may be on + this country as a nation. They come from all countries, and they expect to + remain here until their fortunes are made or lost and all their ideas are + moulded by their own interests. Then, there are a great many natives who + are merchants in New York and who deal in foreign goods, and they probably + think—some of them—that it would be to their interest to have + free trade, and they will probably vote according to the ledger. With them + it is a question of bookkeeping. Their greed is too great to appreciate + the fact that to impoverish customers destroys trade. + </p> + <p> + At the same time, New York, being one of the greatest manufacturing States + of the world, will be for protection, and the Democrats of New York who + voted for protection did so, not only because the believed in it + themselves, but because their constituents believe in it, and the + Republicans who voted the other way must have represented some district + where the foreign influence controls. + </p> + <p> + The people of this State will protect their own industries. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What will be the fate of the Mills Bill in the Senate? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think that unless the Senate has a bill prepared + embodying Republican ideals, a committee should be appointed, not simply + to examine the Mills Bill, but to get the opinions and the ideas of the + most intelligent manufacturers and mechanics in this country. Let the + questions be thoroughly discussed, and let the information thus obtained + be given to the people; let it be published from day to day; let the + laboring man have his say, let the manufacturer give his opinion; let the + representatives of the principal industries be heard, so that we may vote + intelligently, so that the people may know what they are doing. + </p> + <p> + A great many industries have been attacked. Let them defend themselves. + Public property should not be taken for Democratic use without due process + of law. + </p> + <p> + Certainly it is not the business of a Republican Senate to pull the donkey + of the Democrats out of the pit; the dug the pit, and we have lost no + donkey. + </p> + <p> + I do not think the Senate called upon to fix up this Mills Bill, to + rectify its most glaring mistakes, and then for the sake of saving a + little, give up a great deal. What we have got is safe until the Democrats + have the power to pass a bill. We can protect our rights by not passing + their bills. In other words, we do not wish to practice any great + self-denial simply for the purpose of insuring Democratic success. If the + bill is sent back to the House, no matter in what form, if it still has + the name "Mills Bill" I think the Democrats will vote for it simply to get + out of their trouble. They will have the President's message left. + </p> + <p> + But I do hope that the Senate will investigate this business. It is hardly + fair to ask the Senate to take decided and final action upon this bill in + the last days of the session. There is no time to consider it unless it is + instantly defeated. This would probably be a safe course, and yet, by + accident, there may be some good things in this bill that ought to be + preserved, and certainly the Democratic party ought to regard it as a + compliment to keep it long enough to read it. + </p> + <p> + The interests involved are great—there are the commercial and + industrial interests of sixty millions of people. These questions touch + the prosperity of the Republic. Every person under the flag has a direct + interest in the solution of these questions. The end that is now arrived + at, the policy now adopted, may and probably will last for many years. One + can hardly overestimate the immensity of the interests at stake. A man + dealing with his own affairs should take time to consider; he should give + himself the benefit of his best judgment. When acting for others he should + do no less. The Senators represent, or should represent, not only their + own views, but above these things they represent the material interests of + their constituents, of their States, and to this trust they must be true, + and in order to be true, they must understand the material interests of + their States, and in order to be faithful, they must understand how the + proposed changes in the tariff will affect these interests. This cannot be + done in a moment. + </p> + <p> + In my judgment, the best way is for the Senate, through the proper + committee, to hear testimony, to hear the views of intelligent men, of + interested men, of prejudiced men—that is to say, they should look + at the question from all sides. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. The Senate is almost tied; do you think that any + Republicans are likely to vote in the interest of the President's policy + at this session? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course I cannot pretend to answer that question from any + special knowledge, or on any information that others are not in possession + of. My idea is simply this: That a majority of the Senators are opposed to + the President's policy. A majority of the Senate will, in my judgment, + sustain the Republican policy; that is to say, they will stand by the + American system. A majority of the Senate, I think, know that it will be + impossible for us to compete in the markets of the world with those + nations in which labor is far cheaper than it is in the United States, and + that when you make the raw material just the same, you have not overcome + the difference in labor, and until this is overcome we cannot successfully + compete in the markets of the world with those countries where labor is + cheaper. And there are only two ways to overcome this difficulty—either + the price of labor must go up in the other countries or must go down in + this. I do not believe that a majority of the Senate can be induced to + vote for a policy that will decrease the wages of American workingmen. + </p> + <p> + There is this curious thing: The President started out blowing the trumpet + of free trade. It gave, as the Democrats used to say, "no uncertain + sound." He blew with all his might. Messrs. Morrison, Carlisle, Mills and + many others joined the band. When the Mills Bill was introduced it was + heralded as the legitimate offspring of the President's message. When the + Democratic convention at St. Louis met, the declaration was made that the + President's message, the Mills Bill, the Democratic platform of 1884 and + the Democratic platform of 1888, were all the same—all segments of + one circle; in fact, they were like modern locomotives—"all the + parts interchangeable." As soon as the Republican convention met, made its + platform and named its candidates, it is not free trade, but freer trade; + and now Mr. Mills, in the last speech that he was permitted to make in + favor of his bill, endeavored to show that it was a high protective tariff + measure. + </p> + <p> + This is what lawyers call "a departure in pleading." That is to say, it is + a case that ought to be beaten on demurrer. + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York Press</i>, July 29, 1888. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0075" id="link0075"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + SOCIETY AND ITS CRIMINALS* + </h2> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + [* Col. Robert G. Ingersoll was greatly interested in + securing for Chiara Cignarale a commutation of the death + sentence to imprisonment for life. In view of the fact that + the great Agnostic has made a close study of capital + punishment, a reporter for the <i>World</i> called upon him a day + or two ago for an interview touching modern reformatory + measures and the punishment of criminals. Speaking + generally on the subject Colonel Ingersoll said:] +</pre> + <p> + I suppose that society—that is to say, a state or a nation—has + the right of self-defence. It is impossible to maintain society— + that is to say, to protect the rights of individuals in life, in property, + in reputation, and in the various pursuits known as trades and + professions, without in some way taking care of those who violate these + rights. The principal object of all government should be to protect those + in the right from those in the wrong. There are a vast number of people + who need to be protected who are unable, by reason of the defects in their + minds and by the countless circumstances that enter into the question of + making a living, to protect themselves. Among the barbarians there was, + comparatively speaking, but little difference. A living was made by + fishing and hunting. These arts were simple and easily learned. The + principal difference in barbarians consisted in physical strength and + courage. As a consequence, there were comparatively few failures. Most men + were on an equality. Now that we are somewhat civilized, life has become + wonderfully complex. There are hundreds of arts, trades, and professions, + and in every one of these there is great competition. + </p> + <p> + Besides all this, something is needed every moment. Civilized man has less + credit than the barbarian. There is something by which everything can be + paid for, including the smallest services. Everybody demands payment, and + he who fails to pay is a failure. Owing to the competition, owing to the + complexity of modern life, owing to the thousand things that must be known + in order to succeed in any direction, on either side of the great highway + that is called Progress, are innumerable wrecks. As a rule, failure in + some honest direction, or at least in some useful employment, is the dawn + of crime. People who are prosperous, people who by reasonable labor can + make a reasonable living, who, having a little leisure can lay in a little + for the winter that comes to all, are honest. + </p> + <p> + As a rule, reasonable prosperity is virtuous. I don't say great + prosperity, because it is very hard for the average man to withstand + extremes. When people fail under this law, or rather this fact, of the + survival of the fittest, they endeavor to do by some illegal way that + which they failed to do in accordance with law. Persons driven from the + highway take to the fields, and endeavor to reach their end or object in + some shorter way, by some quicker path, regardless of its being right or + wrong. + </p> + <p> + I have said this much to show that I regard criminals as unfortunates. + Most people regard those who violate the law with hatred. They do not take + into consideration the circumstances. They do not believe that man is + perpetually acted upon. They throw out of consideration the effect of + poverty, of necessity, and above all, of opportunity. For these reasons + they regard criminals with feelings of revenge. They wish to see them + punished. They want them imprisoned or hanged. They do not think the law + has been vindicated unless somebody has been outraged. I look at these + things from an entirely different point of view. I regard these people who + are in the clutches of the law not only as unfortunates, but, for the most + part, as victims. You may call them victims of nature, or of nations, or + of governments; it makes no difference, they are victims. Under the same + circumstances the very persons who punish them would be punished. But + whether the criminal is a victim or not, the honest man, the industrious + man, has the right to defend the product of his labor. He who sows and + plows should be allowed to reap, and he who endeavors to take from him his + harvest is what we call a criminal; and it is the business of society to + protect the honest from the dishonest. + </p> + <p> + Without taking into account whether the man is or is not responsible, + still society has the right of self-defence. Whether that right of + self-defence goes to the extent of taking life, depends, I imagine, upon + the circumstances in which society finds itself placed. A thousand men on + a ship form a society. If a few men should enter into a plot for the + destruction of the ship, or for turning it over to pirates, or for + poisoning and plundering the most of the passengers—if the + passengers found this out certainly they would have the right of + self-defence. They might not have the means to confine the conspirators + with safety. Under such circumstances it might be perfectly proper for + them to destroy their lives and to throw their worthless bodies into the + sea. But what society has the right to do depends upon the circumstances. + Now, in my judgment, society has the right to do two things—to + protect itself and to do what it can to reform the individual. Society has + no right to take revenge; no right to torture a convict; no right to do + wrong because some individual has done wrong. I am opposed to all corporal + punishment in penitentiaries. I am opposed to anything that degrades a + criminal or leaves upon him an unnecessary stain, or puts upon him any + stain that he did not put upon himself. + </p> + <p> + Most people defend capital punishment on the ground that the man ought to + be killed because he has killed another. The only real ground for killing + him, even if that be good, is not that he has killed, but that he may + kill. What he has done simply gives evidence of what he may do, and to + prevent what he may do, instead of to revenge what he has done, should be + the reason given. + </p> + <p> + Now, there is another view. To what extent does it harden the community + for the Government to take life? Don't people reason in this way: That man + ought to be killed; the Government, under the same circumstances, would + kill him, therefore I will kill him? Does not the Government feed the mob + spirit—the lynch spirit? Does not the mob follow the example set by + the Government? The Government certainly cannot say that it hangs a man + for the purpose of reforming him. Its feelings toward that man are only + feelings of revenge and hatred. These are the same feelings that animate + the lowest and basest mob. + </p> + <p> + Let me give you an example. In the city of Bloomington, in the State of + Illinois, a man confined in the jail, in his efforts to escape, shot and, + I believe, killed the jailer. He was pursued, recaptured, brought back and + hanged by a mob. The man who put the rope around his neck was then under + indictment for an assault to kill and was out on bail, and after the poor + wretch was hanged another man climbed the tree and, in a kind of derision, + put a piece of cigar between the lips of the dead man. The man who did + this had also been indicted for a penitentiary offence and was then out on + bail. + </p> + <p> + I mention this simply to show the kind of people you find in mobs. Now, if + the Government had a greater and nobler thought; if the Government said: + "We will reform; we will not destroy; but if the man is beyond reformation + we will simply put him where he can do no more harm," then, in my + judgment, the effect would be far better. My own opinion is, that the + effect of an execution is bad upon the community—degrading and + debasing. The effect is to cheapen human life; and, although a man is + hanged because he has taken human life, the very fact that his life is + taken by the Government tends to do away with the idea that human life is + sacred. + </p> + <p> + Let me give you an illustration. A man in the city of Washington went to + Alexandria, Va., for the purpose of seeing a man hanged who had murdered + an old man and a woman for the purpose of getting their money. On his + return from that execution he came through what is called the Smithsonian + grounds. This was on the same day, late in the evening. There he met a + peddler, whom he proceeded to murder for his money. He was arrested in a + few hours, in a little while was tried and convicted, and in a little + while was hanged. And another man, present at this second execution, went + home on that same day, and, in passing by a butcher-shop near his house, + went in, took from the shop a cleaver, went into his house and chopped his + wife's head off. + </p> + <p> + This, I say, throws a little light upon the effect of public executions. + In the Cignarale case, of course the sentence should have been commuted. I + think, however, that she ought not to be imprisoned for life. From what I + read of the testimony I think she should have been pardoned. + </p> + <p> + It is hard, I suppose, for a man fully to understand and enter into the + feelings of a wife who has been trampled upon, abused, bruised, and + blackened by the man she loved—by the man who made to her the vows + of eternal affection. The woman, as a rule, is so weak, so helpless. Of + course, it does not all happen in a moment. It comes on as the night + comes. She notices that he does not act quite as affectionately as he + formerly did. Day after day, month after month, she feels that she is + entering a twilight. But she hopes that she is mistaken, and that the + light will come again. The gloom deepens, and at last she is in midnight—a + midnight without a star. And this man, whom she once worshiped, is now her + enemy— one who delights to trample upon every sentiment she has—who + delights in humiliating her, and who is guilty of a thousand nameless + tyrannies. Under these circumstances, it is hardly right to hold that + woman accountable for what she does. It has always seemed to me strange + that a woman so circumstanced—in such fear that she dare not even + tell her trouble—in such fear that she dare not even run away—dare + not tell a father or a mother, for fear that she will be killed—I + say, that in view of all this, it has always seemed strange to me that so + few husbands have been poisoned. + </p> + <p> + The probability is that society raises its own criminals. It plows the + land, sows the seed, and harvests the crop. I believe that the shadow of + the gibbet will not always fall upon the earth. I believe the time will + come when we shall know too much to raise criminals—know too much to + crowd those that labor into the dens and dungeons that we call tenements, + while the idle live in palaces. The time will come when men will know that + real progress means the enfranchisement of the whole human race, and that + our interests are so united, so interwoven, that the few cannot be happy + while the many suffer; so that the many cannot be happy while the few + suffer; so that none can be happy while one suffers. In other words, it + will be found that the human race is interested in each individual. When + that time comes we will stop producing criminals; we will stop producing + failures; we will not leave the next generation to chance; we will not + regard the gutter as a proper nursery for posterity. + </p> + <p> + People imagine that if the thieves are sent to the penitentiary, that is + the last of the thieves; that if those who kill others are hanged, society + is on a safe and enduring basis. But the trouble is here: A man comes to + your front door and you drive him away. You have an idea that that man's + case is settled. You are mistaken. He goes to the back door. He is again + driven away. But the case is not settled. The next thing you know he + enters at night. He is a burglar. He is caught; he is convicted; he is + sent to the penitentiary, and you imagine that the case is settled. But it + is not. You must remember that you have to keep all the agencies alive for + the purpose of taking care of these people. You have to build and maintain + your penitentiaries, your courts of justice; you have to pay your judges, + your district attorneys, your juries, you witnesses, your detectives, your + police—all these people must be paid. So that, after all, it is a + very expensive way of settling this question. You could have done it far + more cheaply had you found this burglar when he was a child; had you taken + his father and mother from the tenement house, or had you compelled the + owners to keep the tenement clean; or if you had widened the streets, if + you had planted a few trees, if you had had plenty of baths, if you had + had a school in the neighborhood. If you had taken some interest in this + family—some interest in this child—instead of breaking into + houses, he might have been a builder of houses. + </p> + <p> + There is, and it cannot be said too often, no reforming influence in + punishment; no reforming power in revenge. Only the best of men should be + in charge of penitentiaries; only the noblest minds and the tenderest + hearts should have the care of criminals. Criminals should see from the + first moment that they enter a penitentiary that it is filled with the air + of kindness, full of the light of hope. The object should be to convince + every criminal that he has made a mistake; that he has taken the wrong + way; that the right way is the easy way, and that the path of crime never + did and never can lead to happiness; that that idea is a mistake, and that + the Government wishes to convince him that he has made a mistake; wishes + to open his intellectual eyes; wishes so to educate him, so to elevate + him, that he will look back upon what he has done, only with horror. This + is reformation. Punishment is not. When the convict is taken to Sing Sing + or to Auburn, and when a striped suit of clothes is put upon him—that + is to say, when he is made to feel the degradation of his position—no + step has been taken toward reformation. You have simply filled his heart + with hatred. Then, when he has been abused for several years, treated like + a wild beast, and finally turned out again in the community, he has no + thought, in a majority of cases, except to "get even" with those who have + persecuted him. He feels that it is a persecution. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think that men are naturally criminals and + naturally virtuous? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think that man does all that he does naturally—that + is to say, a certain man does a certain act under certain circumstances, + and he does this naturally. For instance, a man sees a five dollar bill, + and he knows that he can take it without being seen. Five dollars is no + temptation to him. Under the circumstances it is not natural that he + should take it. The same man sees five million dollars, and feels that he + can get possession of it without detection. If he takes it, then under the + circumstances, that was natural to him. And yet I believe there are men + above all price, and that no amount of temptation or glory or fame could + mislead them. Still, whatever man does, is or was natural to him. + </p> + <p> + Another view of the subject is this: I have read that out of fifty + criminals who had been executed it was found, I believe, in nearly all the + cases, that the shape of the skull was abnormal. Whether this is true or + not, I don't know; but that some men have a tendency toward what we call + crime, I believe. Where this has been ascertained, then, it seems to me, + such men should be placed where they cannot multiply their kind. Women who + have a criminal tendency should be placed where they cannot increase their + kind. For hardened criminals —that is to say, for the people who + make crime a business—it would probably be better to separate the + sexes; to send the men to one island, the women to another. Let them be + kept apart, to the end that people with criminal tendencies may fade from + the earth. This is not prompted by revenge. This would not be done for the + purpose of punishing these people, but for the protection of society + —for the peace and happiness of the future. + </p> + <p> + My own belief is that the system in vogue now in regard to the treatment + of criminals in many States produces more crime than it prevents. Take, + for instance, the Southern States. There is hardly a chapter in the + history of the world the reading of which could produce greater + indignation than the history of the convict system in many of the Southern + States. These convicts are hired out for the purpose of building railways, + or plowing fields, or digging coal, and in some instances the death-rate + has been over twelve per cent. a month. The evidence shows that no respect + was paid to the sexes—men and women were chained together + indiscriminately. The evidence also shows that for the slightest offences + they were shot down like beasts. They were pursued by hounds, and their + flesh was torn from their bones. + </p> + <p> + So in some of the Northern prisons they have what they call the weighing + machine—an infamous thing, and he who uses it commits as great a + crime as the convict he punishes could have committed. All these things + are degrading, debasing, and demoralizing. There is no need of any such + punishment in any penitentiary. Let the punishment be of such kind that + the convict is responsible himself. For instance, if the convict refuses + to obey a reasonable rule he can be put into a cell. He can be fed when he + obeys the rule. + </p> + <p> + If he goes hungry it is his own fault. It depends upon himself to say when + he shall eat. Or he may be placed in such a position that if he does not + work—if he does not pump—the water will rise and drown him. If + the water does rise it is his fault. Nobody pours it upon him. He takes + his choice. + </p> + <p> + These are suggested as desperate cases, but I can imagine no case where + what is called corporal punishment should be inflicted, and the reason I + am against it is this: I am opposed to any punishment that cannot be + inflicted by a gentleman. I am opposed to any punishment the infliction of + which tends to harden and debase the man who inflicts it. I am for no laws + that have to be carried out by human curs. + </p> + <p> + Take, for instance, the whipping-post. Nothing can be more degrading. The + man who applies the lash is necessarily a cruel and vulgar man, and the + oftener he applies it the more and more debased he will become. The whole + thing can be stated in the one sentence: I am opposed to any punishment + that cannot be inflicted by a gentleman, and by "gentleman" I mean a + self-respecting, honest, generous man. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the efficacy or the propriety of + punishing criminals by solitary confinement? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Solitary confinement is a species of torture. I am opposed + to all torture. I think the criminal should not be punished. He should be + reformed, if he is capable of reformation. But, whatever is done, it + should not be done as a punishment. Society should be too noble, too + generous, to harbor a thought of revenge. Society should not punish, it + should protect itself only. It should endeavor to reform the individual. + Now, solitary confinement does not, I imagine, tend to the reformation of + the individual. Neither can the person in that position do good to any + human being. The prisoner will be altogether happier when his mind is + engaged, when his hands are busy, when he has something to do. This keeps + alive what we call cheerfulness. And let me say a word on this point. + </p> + <p> + I don't believe that the State ought to steal the labor of a convict. Here + is a man who has a family. He is sent to the penitentiary. He works from + morning till night. Now, in my judgment, he ought to be paid for the labor + over and above what it costs to keep him. That money should be sent to his + family. That money should be subject, at least, to his direction. If he is + a single man, when he comes out of the penitentiary he should be given his + earnings, and all his earnings, so that he would not have the feeling that + he had been robbed. A statement should be given to him to show what it had + cost to keep him and how much his labor had brought and the balance + remaining in his favor. With this little balance he could go out into the + world with something like independence. This little balance would be a + foundation for his honesty—a foundation for a resolution on his part + to be a man. But now each one goes out with the feeling that he has not + only been punished for the crime which he committed, but that he has been + robbed of the results of his labor while there. + </p> + <p> + The idea is simply preposterous that the people sent to the penitentiary + should live in idleness. They should have the benefit of their labor, and + if you give them the benefit of their labor they will turn out as good + work as if they were out of the penitentiary. They will have the same + reason to do their best. Consequently, poor articles, poorly constructed + things, would not come into competition with good articles made by free + people outside of the walls. + </p> + <p> + Now many mechanics are complaining because work done in the penitentiaries + is brought into competition with their work. But the only reason that + convict work is cheaper is because the poor wretch who does it is robbed. + The only reason that the work is poor is because the man who does it has + no interest in its being good. If he had the profit of his own labor he + would do the best that was in him, and the consequence would be that the + wares manufactured in the prisons would be as good as those manufactured + elsewhere. For instance, we will say here are three or four men working + together. They are all free men. One commits a crime and he is sent to the + penitentiary. Is it possible that his companions would object to his being + paid for honest work in the penitentiary? + </p> + <p> + And let me say right here, all labor is honest. Whoever makes a useful + thing, the labor is honest, no matter whether the work is done in a + penitentiary or in a palace; in a hovel or the open field. Wherever work + is done for the good of others, it is honest work. If the laboring men + would stop and think, they would know that they support everybody. Labor + pays all the taxes. Labor supports all the penitentiaries. Labor pays the + warden. Labor pays everything, and if the convicts are allowed to live in + idleness labor must pay their board. Every cent of tax is borne by the + back of labor. No matter whether your tariff is put on champagne and + diamonds, it has to be paid by the men and women who work—those who + plow in the fields, who wash and iron, who stand by the forge, who run the + cars and work in the mines, and by those who battle with the waves of the + sea. Labor pays every bill. + </p> + <p> + There is one little thing to which I wish to call the attention of all who + happen to read this interview, and that is this: Undoubtedly you think of + all criminals with horror and when you hear about them you are, in all + probability, filled with virtuous indignation. But, first of all, I want + you to think of what you have in fact done. Secondly, I want you to think + of what you have wanted to do. Thirdly, I want you to reflect whether you + were prevented from doing what you wanted to do by fear or by lack of + opportunity. Then perhaps you will have more charity. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the new legislation in the State + changing the death penalty to death by electricity? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. If death by electricity is less painful than hanging, then + the law, so far as that goes, is good. There is not the slightest + propriety in inflicting upon the person executed one single unnecessary + pang, because that partakes of the nature of revenge—that is to say, + of hatred—and, as a consequence, the State shows the same spirit + that the criminal was animated by when he took the life of his neighbor. + If the death penalty is to be inflicted, let it be done in the most humane + way. For my part, I should like to see the criminal removed, if he must be + removed, with the same care and with the same mercy that you would perform + a surgical operation. Why inflict pain? Who wants it inflicted? What good + can it, by any possibility, do? To inflict unnecessary pain hardens him + who inflicts it, hardens each among those who witness it, and tends to + demoralize the community. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is it not the fact that punishments have grown less and + less severe for many years past? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In the old times punishment was the only means of + reformation. If anybody did wrong, punish him. If people still continued + to commit the same offence, increase the punishment; and that went on + until in what they call "civilized countries" they hanged people, provided + they stole the value of one shilling. But larceny kept right on. There was + no diminution. So, for treason, barbarous punishments were inflicted. + Those guilty of that offence were torn asunder by horses; their entrails + were cut out of them while they were yet living and thrown into their + faces; their bodies were quartered and their heads were set on pikes above + the gates of the city. Yet there was a hundred times more treason then + than now. Every time a man was executed and mutilated and tortured in this + way the seeds of other treason were sown. + </p> + <p> + So in the church there was the same idea. No reformation but by + punishment. Of course in this world the punishment stopped when the poor + wretch was dead. It was found that that punishment did not reform, so the + church said: "After death it will go right on, getting worse and worse, + forever and forever." Finally it was found that this did not tend to the + reformation of mankind. Slowly the fires of hell have been dying out. The + climate has been changing from year to year. Men have lost confidence in + the power of the thumbscrew, the fagot, and the rack here, and they are + losing confidence in the flames of perdition hereafter. In other words, it + is simply a question of civilization. + </p> + <p> + When men become civilized in matters of thought, they will know that every + human being has the right to think for himself, and the right to express + his honest thought. Then the world of thought will be free. At that time + they will be intelligent enough to know that men have different thoughts, + that their ways are not alike, because they have lived under different + circumstances, and in that time they will also know that men act as they + are acted upon. And it is my belief that the time will come when men will + no more think of punishing a man because he has committed the crime of + larceny than they will think of punishing a man because he has the + consumption. In the first case they will endeavor to reform him, and in + the second case they will endeavor to cure him. + </p> + <p> + The intelligent people of the world, many of them, are endeavoring to find + out the great facts in Nature that control the dispositions of men. So + other intelligent people are endeavoring to ascertain the facts and + conditions that govern what we call health, and what we call disease, and + the object of these people is finally to produce a race without disease of + flesh and without disease of mind. These people look forward to the time + when there need to be neither hospitals nor penitentiaries. + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York World</i>, August 5, 1888. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0076" id="link0076"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + WOMAN'S RIGHT TO DIVORCE. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Col. Robert G. Ingersoll, the great Agnostic, has always + been an ardent defender of the sanctity of the home and of the marriage + relation. Apropos of the horrible account of a man's tearing out the eyes + of his wife at Far Rockaway last week, Colonel Ingersoll was asked what + recourse a woman had under such circumstances? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I read the account, and I don't remember of ever having + read anything more perfectly horrible and cruel. It is impossible for me + to imagine such a monster, or to account for such an inhuman human being. + How a man could deprive a human being of sight, except where some + religious question is involved, is beyond my comprehension. We know that + for many centuries frightful punishments were inflicted, and inflicted by + the pious, by the theologians, by the spiritual minded, and by those who + "loved their neighbors as themselves." We read the accounts of how the + lids of men's eyes were cut off and then the poor victims tied where the + sum would shine upon their lifeless orbs; of others who were buried alive; + of others staked out on the sands of the sea, to be drowned by the rising + tide; of others put in sacks filled with snakes. Yet these things appeared + far away, and we flattered ourselves that, to a great degree, the world + had outgrown these atrocities; and now, here, near the close of the + nineteenth century, we find a man—a husband—cruel enough to + put out the eyes of the woman he swore to love, protect and cherish. This + man has probably been taught that there is forgiveness for every crime, + and now imagines that when he repents there will be more joy in heaven + over him than over ninety and nine good and loving husbands who have + treated their wives in the best possible manner, and who, instead of + tearing out their eyes, have filled their lives with content and covered + their faces with kisses. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. You told me, last week, in a general way, what society + should do with the husband in such a case as that. I would like to ask you + to-day, what you think society ought to do with the wife in such a case, + or what ought the wife to be permitted to do for herself? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. When we take into consideration the crime of the man who + blinded his wife, it is impossible not to think of the right of divorce. + Many people insist that marriage is an indissoluble tie; that nothing can + break it, and that nothing can release either party from the bond. Now, + take this case at Far Rockaway. One year ago the husband tore out one of + his wife's eyes. Had she then good cause for divorce? Is it possible that + an infinitely wise and good God would insist on this poor, helpless woman + remaining with the wild beast, her husband? Can anyone imagine that such a + course would add to the joy of Paradise, or even tend to keep one harp in + tune? Can the good of society require the woman to remain? She did remain, + and the result is that the other eye has been torn from its socket by the + hands of the husband. Is she entitled to a divorce now? And if she is + granted one, is virtue in danger, and shall we lose the high ideal of home + life? Can anything be more infamous than to endeavor to make a woman, + under such circumstances, remain with such a man? It may be said that she + should leave him—that they should live separate and apart. That is + to say, that this woman should be deprived of a home; that she should not + be entitled to the love of man; that she should remain, for the rest of + her days, worse than a widow. That is to say, a wife, hiding, keeping out + of the way, secreting herself from the hyena to whom she was married. + Nothing, in my judgment, can exceed the heartlessness of a law or of a + creed that would compel this woman to remain the wife of this monster. And + it is not only cruel, but it is immoral, low, vulgar. + </p> + <p> + The ground has been taken that woman would lose her dignity if marriages + were dissoluble. Is it necessary to lose your freedom in order to retain + your character, in order to be womanly or manly? Must a woman in order to + retain her womanhood become a slave, a serf, with a wild beast for a + master, or with society for a master, or with a phantom for a master? Has + not the married woman the right of self-defence? Is it not the duty of + society to protect her from her husband? If she owes no duty to her + husband; if it is impossible for her to feel toward him any thrill of + affection, what is there of marriage left? What part of the contract + remains in force? She is not to live with him, because she abhors him. She + is not to remain in the same house with him, for fear he may kill her. + What, then, are their relations? Do they sustain any relation except that + of hunter and hunted—that is, of tyrant and victim? And is it + desirable that this relation should be rendered sacred by a church? Is it + desirable to have families raised under such circumstances? Are we really + in need of the children born of such parents? If the woman is not in + fault, does society insist that her life should be wrecked? Can the virtue + of others be preserved only by the destruction of her happiness, and by + what might be called her perpetual imprisonment? I hope the clergy who + believe in the sacredness of marriage—in the indissolubility of the + marriage tie—will give their opinions on this case. I believe that + marriage is the most important contract that human beings can make. I + always believe that a man will keep his contract; that a woman, in the + highest sense, will keep hers, But suppose the man does not. Is the woman + still bound? + </p> + <p> + Is there no mutuality? What is a contract? It is where one party promises + to do something in consideration that the other party will do something. + That is to say, there is a consideration on both sides, moving from one to + the other. A contract without consideration is null and void; and a + contract duly entered into, where the consideration of one party is + withheld, is voidable, and can be voided by the party who has kept, or who + is willing to keep, the contract. A marriage without love is bad enough. + But what can we say of a marriage where the parties hate each other? Is + there any morality in this—any virtue? Will any decent person say + that a woman, true, good and loving, should be compelled to live with a + man she detests, compelled to be the mother of his children? Is there a + woman in the world who would not shrink from this herself? And is there a + woman so heartless and so immoral that she would force another to bear + what she would shudderingly avoid? Let us bring these questions home. In + other words, let us have some sense, some feeling, some heart—and + just a little brain. Marriages are made by men and women. They are not + made by the State, and they are not made by the gods. By this time people + should learn that human happiness is the foundation of virtue—the + foundation of morality. Nothing is moral that does not tend to the + well-being of sentient beings. Nothing is virtuous the result of which is + not a human good. The world has always been living for phantoms, for + ghosts, for monsters begotten by ignorance and fear. The world should + learn to live for itself. Man should, by this time, be convinced that all + the reasons for doing right, and all the reasons for doing wrong, are + right here in this world—all within the horizon of this life. And + besides, we should have imagination to put ourselves in the place of + another. Let a man suppose himself a helpless wife, beaten by a brute who + believes in the indissolubility of marriage. Would he want a divorce? + </p> + <p> + I suppose that very few people have any adequate idea of the sufferings of + women and children; of the number of wives who tremble when they hear the + footsteps of a returning husband; of the number of children who hide when + they hear the voice of a father. Very few people know the number of blows + that fall on the flesh of the helpless every day. Few know the nights of + terror passed by mothers holding young children at their breasts. Compared + with this, the hardships of poverty, borne by those who love each other, + are nothing. Men and women, truly married, bear the sufferings of poverty. + They console each other; their affection gives to the heart of each + perpetual sunshine. But think of the others! I have said a thousand times + that the home is the unit of good government. When we have kind fathers + and loving mothers, then we shall have civilized nations, and not until + then. Civilization commences at the hearthstone. When intelligence rocks + the cradle—when the house is filled with philosophy and kindness—you + will see a world a peace. Justice will sit in the courts, wisdom in the + legislative halls, and over all, like the dome of heaven, will be the + spirit of Liberty! + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your idea with regard to divorce? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. My idea is this: As I said before, marriage is the most + sacred contract—the most important contract—that human beings + can make. As a rule, the woman dowers the husband with her youth—with + all she has. From this contract the husband should never be released + unless the wife has broken a condition; that is to say, has failed to + fulfill the contract of marriage. On the other hand, the woman should be + allowed a divorce for the asking. This should be granted in public, + precisely as the marriage should be in public. Every marriage should be + known. There should be witnesses, to the end that the character of the + contract entered into should be understood; and as all marriage records + should be kept, so the divorce should be open, public and known. The + property should be divided by a court of equity, under certain regulations + of law. If there are children, they should be provided for through the + property and the parents. People should understand that men and women are + not virtuous by law. They should comprehend the fact that law does not + create virtue—that law is not the foundation, the fountain, of love. + They should understand that love is in the human heart, and that real love + is virtuous. People who love each other will be true to each other. The + death of love is the commencement of vice. Besides this, there is a public + opinion that has great weight. When that public opinion is right, it does + a vast amount of good, and when wrong, a great amount of harm. People + marry, or should marry, because it increases the happiness of each and + all. But where the marriage turns out to have been a mistake, and where + the result is misery, and not happiness, the quicker they are divorced the + better, not only for themselves, but for the community at large. These + arguments are generally answered by some donkey braying about free love, + and by "free love" he means a condition of society in which there is no + love. The persons who make this cry are, in all probability, incapable of + the sentiment, of the feeling, known as love. They judge others by + themselves, and they imagine that without law there would be no restraint. + </p> + <p> + What do they say of natural modesty? Do they forget that people have a + choice? Do they not understand something of the human heart, and that true + love has always been as pure as the morning star? Do they believe that by + forcing people to remain together who despise each other they are adding + to the purity of the marriage relation? Do they not know that all marriage + is an outward act, testifying to that which has happened in the heart? + Still, I always believe that words are wasted on such people. It is + useless to talk to anybody about music who is unable to distinguish one + tune from another. It is useless to argue with a man who regards his wife + as his property, and it is hardly worth while to suggest anything to a + gentleman who imagines that society is so constructed that it really + requires, for the protection of itself, that the lives of good and noble + women should be wrecked, I am a believer in the virtue of women, in the + honesty of man. The average woman is virtuous; the average man is honest, + and the history of the world shows it. If it were not so, society would be + impossible. I don't mean by this that most men are perfect, but what I + mean is this: That there is far more good than evil in the average human + being, and that the natural tendency of most people is toward the good and + toward the right. And I most passionately deny that the good of society + demands that any good person should suffer. I do not regard government as + a Juggernaut, the wheels of which must, of necessity, roll over and crush + the virtuous, the self-denying and the good. My doctrine is the exact + opposite of what is known as free love. I believe in the marriage of true + minds and of true hearts. But I believe that thousands of people are + married who do not love each other. That is the misfortune of our century. + Other things are taken into consideration—position, wealth, title + and the thousand things that have nothing to do with real affection. Where + men and women truly love each other, that love, in my judgment, lasts as + long as life. The greatest line that I know of in the poetry of the world + is in the 116th sonnet of Shakespeare: "Love is not love which alters when + it alteration finds." + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Why do you make such a distinction between the rights of + man and the rights of women? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The woman has, as her capital, her youth, her beauty. We + will say that she is married at twenty or twenty-five. In a few years she + has lost her beauty. During these years the man, so far as capacity to + make money is concerned—to do something—has grown better and + better. That is to say, his chances have improved; hers have diminished. + She has dowered him with the Spring of her life, and as her life advances + her chances decrease. Consequently, I would give her the advantage, and I + would not compel her to remain with him against her will. It seems to me + far worse to be a wife upon compulsion than to be a husband upon + compulsion. Besides this, I have a feeling of infinite tenderness toward + mothers. The woman that bears children certainly should not be compelled + to live with a man whom she despises. The suffering is enough when the + father of the child is to her the one man of all the world. Many people + who have a mechanical apparatus in their breasts that assists in the + circulation of what they call blood, regard these views as sentimental. + But when you take sentiment out of the world nothing is left worth living + for, and when you get sentiment out of the heart it is nothing more or + less than a pump, an old piece of rubber that has acquired the habit of + contracting and dilating. But I have this consolation: The people that do + not agree with me are those that do not understand me. + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York World</i>, 1888. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0077" id="link0077"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + SECULARISM. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Colonel, what is your opinion of Secularism? Do you + regard it as a religion? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I understand that the word Secularism embraces everything + that is of any real interest or value to the human race. I take it for + granted that everybody will admit that well-being is the only good; that + is to say, that it is impossible to conceive of anything of real value + that does not tend either to preserve or to increase the happiness of some + sentient being. Secularism, therefore, covers the entire territory. It + fills the circumference of human knowledge and of human effort. It is, you + may say, the religion of this world; but if there is another world, it is + necessarily the religion of that, as well. + </p> + <p> + Man finds himself in this world naked and hungry. He needs food, raiment, + shelter. He finds himself filled with almost innumerable wants. To gratify + these wants is the principal business of life. To gratify them without + interfering with other people is the course pursued by all honest men. + </p> + <p> + Secularism teaches us to be good here and now. I know nothing better than + goodness. Secularism teaches us to be just here and now. It is impossible + to be juster than just. + </p> + <p> + Man can be as just in this world as in any other, and justice must be the + same in all worlds. Secularism teaches a man to be generous, and + generosity is certainly as good here as it can be anywhere else. + Secularism teaches a man to be charitable, and certainly charity is as + beautiful in this world and in this short life as it could be were man + immortal. + </p> + <p> + But orthodox people insist that there is something higher than Secularism; + but, as a matter of fact, the mind of man can conceive of nothing better, + nothing higher, nothing more spiritual, than goodness, justice, + generosity, charity. Neither has the mind of men been capable of finding a + nobler incentive to action than human love. Secularism has to do with + every possible relation. It says to the young man and to the young woman: + "Don't marry unless you can take care of yourselves and your children." It + says to the parents: "Live for your children; put forth every effort to + the end that your children may know more than you—that they may be + better and grander than you." It says: "You have no right to bring + children into the world that you are not able to educate and feed and + clothe." It says to those who have diseases that can be transmitted to + children: "Do not marry; do not become parents; do not perpetuate + suffering, deformity, agony, imbecility, insanity, poverty, wretchedness." + </p> + <p> + Secularism tells all children to do the best they can for their parents—to + discharge every duty and every obligation. It defines the relation that + should exist between husband and wife; between parent and child; between + the citizen and the Nation. And not only that, but between nations. + </p> + <p> + Secularism is a religion that is to be used everywhere, and at all times—that + is to be taught everywhere and practiced at all times. It is not a + religion that is so dangerous that it must be kept out of the schools; it + is not a religion that is so dangerous that it must be kept out of + politics. It belongs in the schools; it belongs at the polls. It is the + business of Secularism to teach every child; to teach every voter. It is + its business to discuss all political problems, and to decide all + questions that affect the rights or the happiness of a human being. + </p> + <p> + Orthodox religion is a firebrand; it must be kept out of the schools; it + must be kept out of politics. All the churches unite in saying that + orthodox religion is not for every day use. The Catholics object to any + Protestant religion being taught to children. Protestants object to any + Catholic religion being taught to children. But the Secularist wants his + religion taught to all; and his religion can produce no feeling, for the + reason that it consists of facts—of truths. And all of it is + important; important for the child, important for the parent, important + for the politician —for the President—for all in power; + important to every legislator, to every professional man, to every laborer + and every farmer—that is to say, to every human being. + </p> + <p> + The great benefit of Secularism is that is appeals to the reason of every + man. It asks every man to think for himself. It does not threaten + punishment if a man thinks, but it offers a reward, for fear that he will + not think. It does not say, "You will be damned in another world if you + think." But it says, "You will be damned in this world if you do not + think." + </p> + <p> + Secularism preserves the manhood and the womanhood of all. It says to each + human being: "Stand upon your own feet. Count one! Examine for yourself. + Investigate, observe, think. Express your opinion. Stand by your judgment, + unless you are convinced you are wrong, and when you are convinced, you + can maintain and preserve your manhood or womanhood only by admitting that + you were wrong." + </p> + <p> + It is impossible that the whole world should agree on one creed. It may be + impossible that any two human beings can agree exactly in religious + belief. Secularism teaches that each one must take care of himself, that + the first duty of man is to himself, to the end that he may be not only + useful to himself, but to others. He who fails to take care of himself + becomes a burden; the first duty of man is not to be a burden. + </p> + <p> + Every Secularist can give a reason for his creed. First of all, he + believes in work—taking care of himself. He believes in the + cultivation of the intellect, to the end that he may take advantage of the + forces of nature—to the end that he may be clothed and fed and + sheltered. + </p> + <p> + He also believes in giving to every other human being every right that he + claims for himself. He does not depend on prayer. He has no confidence in + ghosts or phantoms. He knows nothing of another world, and knows just as + little of a First Cause. But what little he does know, he endeavors to + use, and to use for the benefit of himself and others. + </p> + <p> + He knows that he sustains certain relations to other sentient beings, and + he endeavors to add to the aggregate of human joy. He is his own church, + his own priest, his own clergyman and his own pope. He decides for + himself; in other words, he is a free man. + </p> + <p> + He also has a Bible, and this Bible embraces all the good and true things + that have been written, no matter by whom, or in what language, or in what + time. He accepts everything that he believes to be true, and rejects all + that he thinks is false. He knows that nothing is added to the probability + of an event, because there has been an account of it written and printed. + </p> + <p> + All that has been said that is true is part of his Bible. Every splendid + and noble thought, every good word, every kind action— all these you + will find in his Bible. And, in addition to these, all that is absolutely + known—that has been demonstrated—belongs to the Secularist. + All the inventions, machines—everything that has been of assistance + to the human race—belongs to his religion. The Secularist is in + possession of everything that man has. He is deprived only of that which + man never had. The orthodox world believes in ghosts and phantoms, in + dreams and prayers, in miracles and monstrosities; that is to say, in + modern theology. But these things do not exist, or if they do exist, it is + impossible for a human being to ascertain the fact. Secularism has no + "castles in Spain." It has no glorified fog. It depends upon realities, + upon demonstrations; and its end and aim is to make this world better + every day—to do away with poverty and crime, and to cover the world + with happy and contended homes. + </p> + <p> + Let me say, right here, that a few years ago the Secular Hall at + Leicester, England, was opened by a speech from George Jacob Holyoake, + entitled, "Secularism as a Religion." I have never read anything better on + the subject of Secularism than this address. It is so clear and so manly + that I do not see how any human being can read it without becoming + convinced, and almost enraptured. + </p> + <p> + Let me quote a few lies from this address:— + </p> + <p> + "The mind of man would die if it were not for Thought, and were Thought + suppressed, God would rule over a world of idiots. + </p> + <p> + "Nature feeds Thought, day and night, with a million hands. + </p> + <p> + "To think is a duty, because it is a man's duty not to be a fool. + </p> + <p> + "If man does not think himself, he is an intellectual pauper, living upon + the truth acquired by others, and making no contribution himself in + return. He has no ideas but such as he obtains by 'out- door relief,' and + he goes about the world with a charity mind. + </p> + <p> + "The more thinkers there are in the world, the more truth there is in the + world. + </p> + <p> + "Progress can only walk in the footsteps of Conviction. + </p> + <p> + "Coercion in thought is not progress, it reduces to ignominious pulp the + backbone of the mind. + </p> + <p> + "By Religion I mean the simple creed of deed and duty, by which a man + seeks his own welfare in his own way, with an honest and fair regard to + the welfare and ways of others. + </p> + <p> + "In these thinking and practical days, men demand a religion of daily + life, which stands on a business footing." + </p> + <p> + I think nothing could be much better than the following, which shows the + exact relation that orthodox religion sustains to the actual wants of + human beings: + </p> + <p> + "The Churches administer a system of Foreign Affairs. + </p> + <p> + "Secularism dwells in a land of its own. It dwells in a land of Certitude. + </p> + <p> + "In the Kingdom of Thought there is no conquest over man, but over + foolishness only." + </p> + <p> + I will not quote more, but hope all who read this will read the address of + Mr. Holyoake, who has, in my judgment, defined Secularism with the + greatest possible clearness. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What, in your opinion, are the best possible means to + spread this gospel or religion of Secularism? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. This can only be done by the cultivation of the mind— + only through intelligence—because we are fighting only the monsters + of the mind. The phantoms whom we are endeavoring to destroy do not exist; + they are all imaginary. They live in that undeveloped or unexplored part + of the mind that belongs to barbarism. + </p> + <p> + I have sometimes thought that a certain portion of the mind is cultivated + so that it rises above the surrounding faculties and is like some peak + that has lifted itself above the clouds, while all the valleys below are + dark or dim with mist and cloud. It is in this valley-region, amid these + mists, beneath these clouds, that these monsters and phantoms are born. + And there they will remain until the mind sheds light—until the + brain is developed. + </p> + <p> + One exceedingly important thing is to teach man that his mind has + limitations; that there are walls that he cannot scale—that he + cannot pierce, that he cannot dig under. When a man finds the limitations + of his own mind, he knows that other people's minds have limitations. He, + instead of believing what the priest says, he asks the priest questions. + In a few moments he finds that the priest has been drawing on his + imagination for what is beyond the wall. Consequently he finds that the + priest knows no more than he, and it is impossible that he should know + more than he. + </p> + <p> + An ignorant man has not the slightest suspicion of what a superior man may + do. Consequently, he is liable to become the victim of the intelligent and + cunning. A man wholly unacquainted with chemistry, after having been shown + a few wonders, is ready to believe anything. But a chemist who knows + something of the limitations of that science—who knows what chemists + have done and who knows the nature of things—cannot be imposed upon. + When no one can be imposed upon, orthodox religion cannot exist. It is an + imposture, and there must be impostors and there must be victims, or the + religion cannot be a success. + </p> + <p> + Secularism cannot be a success, universally, as long as there is an + impostor or a victim. This is the difference: The foundation of orthodox + religion is imposture. The foundation of Secularism is demonstration. Just + to the extent that a man knows, he becomes a Secularist. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the action of the Knights of Labor + in Indiana in turning out one of their members because he was an Atheist, + and because he objected to the reading of the Bible at lodge meetings? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In my judgment, the Knights of Labor have made a great + mistake. They want liberty for themselves—they feel that, to a + certain extent, they have been enslaved and robbed. If they want liberty, + they should be willing to give liberty to others. Certainly one of their + members has the same right to his opinion with regard to the existence of + a God, that the other members have to theirs. + </p> + <p> + I do not blame this man for doubting the existence of a Supreme Being, + provided he understands the history of liberty. When a man takes into + consideration the fact that for many thousands of years labor was unpaid, + nearly all of it being done by slaves, and that millions and hundreds of + millions of human beings were bought and sold the same as cattle, and that + during all that time the religions of the world upheld the practice, and + the priests of the countless unknown gods insisted that the institution of + slavery was divine— I do not wonder that he comes to the conclusion + that, perhaps, after all, there is no Supreme Being—at least none + who pays any particular attention to the affairs of this world. + </p> + <p> + If one will read the history of the slave-trade, of the cruelties + practiced, of the lives sacrificed, of the tortures inflicted, he will at + least wonder why "a God of infinite goodness and wisdom" did not interfere + just a little; or, at least, why he did not deny that he was in favor of + the trade. Here, in our own country, millions of men were enslaved, and + hundreds and thousands of ministers stood up in their pulpits, with their + Bibles in front of them, and proceeded to show that slavery was about the + only institution that they were absolutely certain was divine. And they + proved it by reading passages from this very Bible that the Knights of + Labor in Indiana are anxious to have read in their meetings. For their + benefit, let me call their attention to a few passages, and suggest that, + hereafter, they read those passages at every meeting, for the purpose of + convincing all the Knights that the Lord is on the side of those who work + for a living:— + </p> + <p> + "Both thy bondsmen and thy bondsmaids which thou shalt have, shall be of + the heathen round about you; of them shall ye buy bondsmen and bondmaids. + </p> + <p> + "Moreover, of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of + them shall ye buy, and of their families which are with you, which they + begat in your land; and they shall be your possession. + </p> + <p> + "And ye shall take them as an inheritance, for your children after you to + inherit them for a possession. They shall be your bondsmen forever." + </p> + <p> + Nothing seems more natural to me than that a man who believes that labor + should be free, and that he who works should be free, should come to the + conclusion that the passages above quoted are not entirely on his side. I + don't see why people should be in favor of free bodies who are not also in + favor of free minds. If the mind is to remain in imprisonment, it is + hardly worth while to free the body. If the man has the right to labor, he + certainly has the right to use his mind, because without mind he can do no + labor. As a rule, the more mind he has, the more valuable his labor is, + and the freer his mind is the more valuable he is. + </p> + <p> + If the Knights of Labor expect to accomplish anything in this world, they + must do it by thinking. They must have reason on their side, and the only + way they can do anything by thinking is to allow each other to think. Let + all the men who do not believe in the inspiration of the Bible, leave the + Knights of Labor and I do not know how many would be left. But I am + perfectly certain that those left will accomplish very little, simply from + their lack of sense. + </p> + <p> + Intelligent clergymen have abandoned the idea of plenary inspiration. The + best ministers in the country admit that the Bible is full of mistakes, + and while many of them are forced to say that slavery is upheld by the Old + Testament they also insist that slavery was and is, and forever will be + wrong. What had the Knights of Labor to do with a question of religion? + What business is it of theirs who believes or disbelieves in the religion + of the day? Nobody can defend the rights of labor without defending the + right to think. + </p> + <p> + I hope that in time these Knights will become intelligent enough to read + in their meetings something of importance; something that applies to this + century; something that will throw a little light on questions under + discussion at the present time. The idea of men engaged in a kind of + revolution reading from Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Haggai, for the purpose + of determining the rights of workingmen in the nineteenth century! No + wonder such men have been swallowed by the whale of monopoly. And no + wonder that, while that are in the belly of this fish, they insist on + casting out a man with sense enough to understand the situation! The + Knights of Labor have made a mistake and the sooner they reverse their + action the better for all concerned. Nothing should be taught in this + world that somebody does not know. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Secular Thought</i>, Toronto, Canada, August 25, 1888. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0078" id="link0078"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + SUMMER RECREATION—MR. GLADSTONE. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. What is the best philosophy of summer recreation? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. As a matter of fact, no one should be overworked. + Recreation becomes necessary only when a man has abused himself or has + been abused. Holidays grew out of slavery. An intelligent man ought not to + work so hard to-day that he is compelled to rest to-morrow. Each day + should have its labor and its rest. But in our civilization, if it can be + called civilization, every man is expected to devote himself entirely to + business for the most of the year and by that means to get into such a + state of body and mind that he requires, for the purpose of recreation, + the inconveniences, the poor diet, the horrible beds, the little towels, + the warm water, the stale eggs and the tough beef of the average "resort." + For the purpose of getting his mental and physical machinery in fine + working order, he should live in a room for two or three months that is + about eleven by thirteen; that is to say, he should live in a trunk, fight + mosquitoes, quarrel with strangers, dispute bills, and generally enjoy + himself; and this is supposed to be the philosophy of summer recreation. + He can do this, or he can go to some extremely fashionable resort where + his time is taken up in making himself and family presentable. + </p> + <p> + Seriously, there are few better summer resorts than New York City. If + there were no city here it would be the greatest resort for the summer on + the continent; with its rivers, its bay, with its wonderful scenery, with + the winds from the sea, no better could be found. But we cannot in this + age of the world live in accordance with philosophy. No particular theory + can be carried out. We must live as we must; we must earn our bread and we + must earn it as others do, and, as a rule, we must work when others work. + Consequently, if we are to take any recreation we must follow the example + of others; go when they go and come when they come. In other words, man is + a social being, and if one endeavors to carry individuality to an extreme + he must suffer the consequences. So I have made up my mind to work as + little as I can and to rest as much as I can. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of Mr. Gladstone as a + controversialist? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Undoubtedly Mr. Gladstone is a man of great talent, of vast + and varied information, and undoubtedly he is, politically speaking, at + least, one of the greatest men in England—possibly the greatest. As + a controversialist, and I suppose by that you mean on religious questions, + he is certainly as good as his cause. Few men can better defend the + indefensible than Mr. Gladstone. Few men can bring forward more + probabilities in favor of the impossible, then Mr. Gladstone. He is, in my + judgment, controlled in the realm of religion by sentiment; he was taught + long ago certain things as absolute truths and he has never questioned + them. He has had all he can do to defend them. It is of but little use to + attack sentiment with argument, or to attack argument with sentiment. A + question of sentiment can hardly be discussed; it is like a question of + taste. A man is enraptured with a landscape by Corot; you cannot argue him + out of his rapture; the sharper the criticism the greater his admiration, + because he feels that it is incumbent upon him to defend the painter who + has given him so much real pleasure. Some people imagine that what they + think ought to exist must exist, and that what they really desire to be + true is true. We must remember that Mr. Gladstone has been what is called + a deeply religions man all his life. There was a time when he really + believed it to be the duty of the government to see to it that the + citizens were religious; when he really believed that no man should hold + any office or any position under the government who was not a believer in + the established religion; who was not a defender of the parliamentary + faith. I do not know whether he has ever changed his opinions upon these + subjects or not. There is not the slightest doubt as to his honesty, as to + his candor. He says what he believes, and for his belief he gives the + reasons that are satisfactory to him. To me it seems impossible that + miracles can be defended. I do not see how it is possible to bring forward + any evidence that any miracle was ever performed; and unless miracles have + been performed, Christianity has no basis as a system. Mr. Hume took the + ground that it was impossible to substantiate a miracle, for the reason + that it is more probable that the witnesses are mistaken, or are + dishonest, than that a fact in nature should be violated. For instance: A + man says that a certain time, in a certain locality, the attraction of + gravitation was suspended; that there were several moments during which a + cannon ball weighed nothing, during which when dropped from the hand, or + rather when released from the hand, it refused to fall and remained in the + air. It is safe to say that no amount of evidence, no number of witnesses, + could convince an intelligent man to-day that such a thing occurred. We + believe too thoroughly in the constancy of nature. While men will not + believe witnesses who testify to the happening of miracles now, they seem + to have perfect confidence in men whom they never saw, who have been dead + for two thousand years. Of course it is known that Mr. Gladstone has + published a few remarks concerning my religious views and that I have + answered him the best I could. I have no opinion to give as to that + controversy; neither would it be proper for me to say what I think of the + arguments advanced by Mr. Gladstone in addition to what I have already + published. I am willing to leave the controversy where it is, or I am + ready to answer any further objections that Mr. Gladstone may be pleased + to urge. + </p> + <p> + In my judgment, the "Age of Faith" is passing away. We are living in a + time of demonstration. + </p> + <p> + [NOTE: From an unfinished interview found among Colonel Ingersoll's + papers.] + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0079" id="link0079"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + PROHIBITION. + </h2> + <p> + It has been decided in many courts in various States that the traffic in + liquor can be regulated—that it is a police question. It has been + decided by the courts in Iowa that its manufacture and sale can be + prohibited, and, not only so, but that a distillery or a brewery may be + declared a nuisance and may legally be abated, and these decisions have + been upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States. Consequently, it + has been settled by the highest tribunal that States have the power either + to regulate or to prohibit the sale of intoxicating liquors, and not only + so, but that States have the power to destroy breweries and distilleries + without making any compensation to owners. + </p> + <p> + So it has always been considered within the power of the State to license + the selling of intoxicating liquors. In other words, this question is one + that the States can decide for themselves. It is not, and it should not + be, in my judgment, a Federal question. It is something with which the + United States has nothing to do. It belongs to the States; and where a + majority of the people are in favor of prohibition and pass laws to that + effect, there is nothing in the Constitution of the United States that + interferes with such action. + </p> + <p> + The remaining question, then, is not a question of power, but a question + of policy, and at the threshold of this question is another: Can + prohibitory laws be enforced? There are to-day in Kansas,—a + prohibition State—more saloons, that is to say, more places in which + liquor is sold, than there are in Georgia, a State without prohibition + legislation. There are more in Nebraska, according to the population, more + in Iowa, according to the population, than in many of the States in which + there is the old license system. You will find that the United States has + granted more licenses to wholesale and retail dealers in these prohibition + States,—according to the population,—than in many others in + which prohibition has not been adopted. + </p> + <p> + These facts tend to show that it is not enough for the Legislature to say: + "Be it enacted." Behind every law there must be an intelligent and + powerful public opinion. A law, to be enforced, must be the expression of + such powerful and intelligent opinion; otherwise it becomes a dead letter; + it is avoided; judges continue the cases, juries refuse to convict, and + witnesses are not particular about telling the truth. Such laws demoralize + the community, or, to put it in another way, demoralized communities pass + such laws. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the prohibitory movement on general + principles? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The trouble is that when a few zealous men, intending to + reform the world, endeavor to enforce unpopular laws, they are compelled + to resort to detectives, to a system of espionage. For the purpose of + preventing the sale of liquors somebody has to watch. Eyes and ears must + become acquainted with keyholes. Every neighbor suspects every other. A + man with a bottle or demijohn is followed. Those who drink get behind + doors, in cellars and garrets. Hypocrisy becomes substantially universal. + Hundreds of people become suddenly afflicted with a variety of diseases, + for the cure of which alcohol in some form is supposed to be + indispensable. Malaria becomes general, and it is perfectly astonishing + how long a few pieces of Peruvian bark will last, and how often the liquor + can be renewed without absorbing the medicinal qualities of the bark. The + State becomes a paradise for patent medicine—the medicine being poor + whiskey with a scientific name. + </p> + <p> + Physicians become popular in proportion as liquor of some kind figures in + their prescriptions. Then in the towns clubs are formed, the principal + object being to establish a saloon, and in many instances the drug store + becomes a favorite resort, especially on Sundays. + </p> + <p> + There is, however, another side to this question. It is this: Nothing in + the world is more important than personal liberty. Many people are in + favor of blotting out the sun to prevent the growth of weeds. This is the + mistake of all prohibitory fanaticism. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is true temperance, Colonel Ingersoll? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Men have used stimulants for many thousand years, and as + much is used to-day in various forms as in any other period of the world's + history. They are used with more prudence now than ever before, for the + reason that the average man is more intelligent now than ever before. + Intelligence has much to do with temperance. The barbarian rushes to the + extreme, for the reason that but little, comparatively, depends upon his + personal conduct or personal habits. Now the struggle for life is so + sharp, competition is so severe, that few men can succeed who carry a + useless burden. The business men of our country are compelled to lead + temperate lives, otherwise their credit is gone. Men of wealth, men of + intelligence, do not wish to employ intemperate physicians. They are not + willing to trust their health or their lives with a physician who is under + the influence of liquor. The same is true of business men in regard to + their legal interests. They insist upon having sober attorneys; they want + the counsel of a sober man. So in every department. On the railways it is + absolutely essential that the engineer, that the conductor, the train + dispatcher and every other employee, in whose hands are the lives of men, + should be temperate. The consequence is that under the law of the survival + of the fittest, the intemperate are slowly but surely going to the wall; + they are slowly but surely being driven out of employments of trust and + importance. As we rise in the scale of civilization we continually demand + better and better service. We are continually insisting upon better + habits, upon a higher standard of integrity, of fidelity. These are the + causes, in my judgment, that are working together in the direction of true + temperance. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you believe the people can be made to do without a + stimulant? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The history of the world shows that all men who have + advanced one step beyond utter barbarism have used some kind of stimulant. + Man has sought for it in every direction. Every savage loves it. + Everything has been tried. Opium has been used by many hundreds of + millions. Hasheesh has filled countless brains with chaotic dreams, and + everywhere that civilization has gone the blood of the grape has been + used. Nothing is easier now to obtain than liquor. In one bushel of corn + there are at least five gallons— four can easily be extracted. All + starch, all sugars, can be changed almost instantly into alcohol. Every + grain that grows has in it the intoxicating principle, and, as a matter of + fact, nearly all of the corn, wheat, sugar and starch that man eats is + changed into alcohol in his stomach. Whether man can be compelled to do + without a stimulant is a question that I am unable to answer. Of one thing + I am certain: He has never yet been compelled to do without one. The + tendency, I think, of modern times is toward a milder stimulant than + distilled liquors. Whisky and brandies are too strong; wine and beer + occupy the middle ground. Wine is a fireside, whisky a conflagration. + </p> + <p> + It seems to me that it would be far better if the Prohibitionists would + turn their attention toward distilled spirits. If they were willing to + compromise, the probability is that they would have public opinion on + their side. If they would say: "You may have all the beer and all the wine + and cider you wish, and you can drink them when and where you desire, but + the sale of distilled spirits shall be prohibited," it is possible that + this could be carried out in good faith in many if not in most of the + States—possibly in all. We all know the effect of wine, even when + taken in excess, is nothing near as disastrous as the effect of distilled + spirits. Why not take the middle ground? The wine drinkers of the old + country are not drunkards. They have been drinking wine for generations. + It is drunk by men, women and children. It adds to the sociability of the + family. It does not separate the husband from the rest, it keeps them all + together, and in that view is rather a benefit than an injury. Good wine + can be raised as cheaply here as in any part of the world. In nearly every + part of our country the grape grows and good wine can be made. If our + people had a taste for wine they would lose the taste for stronger drink, + and they would be disgusted with the surroundings of the stronger drink. + </p> + <p> + The same may be said in favor of beer. As long as the Prohibitionists make + no distinction between wine and whisky, between beer and brandy, just so + long they will be regarded by most people as fanatics. + </p> + <p> + The Prohibitionists cannot expect to make this question a Federal one. The + United States has no jurisdiction of this subject. Congress can pass no + laws affecting this question that could have any force except in such + parts of our country as are not within the jurisdiction of States. It is a + question for the States and not for the Federal Government. The + Prohibitionists are simply throwing away their votes. Let us suppose that + we had a Prohibition Congress and a Prohibition President—what steps + could be taken to do away with drinking in the city of New York? What + steps could be taken in any State of this Union? What could by any + possibility be done? + </p> + <p> + A few years ago the Prohibitionists demanded above all things that the tax + be taken from distilled spirits, claiming at that time that such a tax + made the Government a partner in vice. + </p> + <p> + Now when the Republican party proposes under certain circumstances to + remove that tax, the Prohibitionists denounce the movement as one in favor + of intemperance. We have also been told that the tax on whisky should be + kept for the reason that it increases the price, and that an increased + price tends to make a temperate people; that if the tax is taken off, the + price will fall and the whole country start on the downward road to + destruction. Is it possible that human nature stands on such slippery + ground? It is possible that our civilization to-day rests upon the price + of alcohol, and that, should the price be reduced, we would all go down + together? For one, I cannot entertain such a humiliating and disgraceful + view of human nature. I believe that man is destined to grow greater, + grander and nobler. I believe that no matter what the cost of alcohol may + be, life will grow too valuable to be thrown away. Men hold life according + to its value. Men, as a rule, only throw away their lives when they are + not worth keeping. When life becomes worth living it will be carefully + preserved and will be hoarded to the last grain of sand that falls through + the glass of time. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is the reason for so much intemperance? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. When many people are failures, when they are distanced in + the race, when they fall behind, when they give up, when they lose + ambition, when they finally become convinced that they are worthless, + precisely as they are in danger of becoming dishonest. In other words, + having failed in the race of life on the highway, they endeavor to reach + to goal by going across lots, by crawling through the grass. Disguise this + matter as we may, all people are not successes, all people have not the + brain or the muscle or the moral stamina necessary to succeed. Some fall + in one way, some in another; some in the net of strong drink, some in the + web of circumstances and others in a thousand ways, and the world itself + cannot grow better unless the unworthy fail. The law is the survival of + the fittest, that is to say, the destruction of the unfit. There is no + scheme of morals, no scheme of government, no scheme of charity, that can + reverse this law. If it could be reversed, then the result would be the + survival of the unfittest, the speedy end of which would be the extinction + of the human race. + </p> + <p> + Temperance men say that it is wise, in so far as possible, to remove + temptation from our fellow-men. + </p> + <p> + Let us look at this in regard to other matters. How do we do away with + larceny? We cannot remove property. We cannot destroy the money of the + world to keep people from stealing some of it. In other words, we cannot + afford to make the world valueless to prevent larceny. All strength by + which temptation is resisted must come from the inside. Virtue does not + depend upon the obstacles to be overcome; virtue depends upon what is + inside of the man. A man is not honest because the safe of the bank is + perfectly secure. Upon the honest man the condition of the safe has no + effect. We will never succeed in raising great and splendid people by + keeping them out of temptation. Great people withstand temptation. Great + people have what may be called moral muscle, moral force. They are poised + within themselves. They understand their relations to the world. The best + possible foundation for honesty is the intellectual perception that + dishonesty can, under no circumstances, be a good investment—that + larceny is not only wicked, but foolish—not only criminal, but + stupid—that crimes are committed only by fools. + </p> + <p> + On every hand there is what is called temptation. Every man has the + opportunity of doing wrong. Every man, in this country, has the + opportunity of drinking too much, has the opportunity of acquiring the + opium habit, has the opportunity of taking morphine every day—in + other words, has the opportunity of destroying himself. How are they to be + prevented? Most of them are prevented—at least in a reasonable + degree—and they are prevented by their intelligence, by their + surroundings, by their education, by their objects and aims in life, by + the people they love, by the people who love them. + </p> + <p> + No one will deny the evils of intemperance, and it is hardly to be + wondered at that people who regard only one side—who think of the + impoverished and wretched, of wives and children in want, of desolate + homes—become the advocates of absolute prohibition. At the same + time, there is a philosophic side, and the question is whether more good + cannot be done by moral influence, by example, by education, by the + gradual civilization of our fellow-men, than in any other possible way. + The greatest things are accomplished by indirection. In this way the idea + of force, of slavery, is avoided. The person influenced does not feel that + he has been trampled upon, does not regard himself as a victim—he + feels rather as a pupil, as one who receives a benefit, whose mind has + been enlarged, whose life has been enriched—whereas the direct way + of "Thou shalt not" produces an antagonism—in other words, produces + the natural result of "I will." + </p> + <p> + By removing one temptation you add strength to others. By depriving a man + of one stimulant, as a rule, you drive him to another, and the other may + be far worse than the one from which he has been driven. We have hundreds + of laws making certain things misdemeanors, which are naturally right. + </p> + <p> + Thousands of people, honest in most directions, delight in outwitting the + Government—derive absolute pleasure from getting in a few clothes + and gloves and shawls without the payment of duty. Thousands of people buy + things in Europe for which they pay more than they would for the same + things in America, and then exercise their ingenuity in slipping them + through the custom-house. + </p> + <p> + A law to have real force must spring from the nature of things, and the + justice of this law must be generally perceived, otherwise it will be + evaded. + </p> + <p> + The temperance people themselves are playing into the hands of the very + party that would refuse to count their votes. Allow the Democrats to + remain in power, allow the Democrats to be controlled by the South, and a + large majority might be in favor of temperance legislation, and yet the + votes would remain uncounted. The party of reform has a great interest in + honest elections, and honest elections must first be obtained as the + foundation of reform. The Prohibitionists can take their choice between + these parties. Would it not be far better for the Prohibitionists to say: + "We will vote for temperance men; we will stand with the party that is the + nearest in favor of what we deem to be the right"? They should also take + into consideration that other people are as honest as they; that others + disbelieve in prohibition as honestly as they believe in it, and that + other people cannot leave their principles to vote for prohibition; and + they must remember, that these other people are in the majority. + </p> + <p> + Mr. Fisk knows that he cannot be elected President—knows that it is + impossible for him to carry any State in the Union. He also knows that in + nearly every State in the Union—probably in all—a majority of + the people believe in stimulants. Why not work with the great and + enlightened majority? Why rush to the extreme for the purpose not only of + making yourself useless but hurtful? + </p> + <p> + No man in the world is more opposed to intemperance than I am. No man in + the world feels more keenly the evils and the agony produced by the crime + of drunkenness. And yet I would not be willing to sacrifice liberty, + individuality, and the glory and greatness of individual freedom, to do + away with all the evils of intemperance. In other words, I believe that + slavery, oppression and suppression would crowd humanity into a thousand + deformities, the result of which would be a thousand times more disastrous + to the well-being of man. I do not believe in the slave virtues, in the + monotony of tyranny, in the respectability produced by force. I admire the + men who have grown in the atmosphere of liberty, who have the pose of + independence, the virtues of strength, of heroism, and in whose hearts is + the magnanimity, the tenderness, and the courage born of victory. + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York World</i>, October 21, 1888. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0080" id="link0080"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + ROBERT ELSMERE. + </h2> + <p> + Why do people read a book like "Robert Elsmere," and why do they take any + interest in it? Simply because they are not satisfied with the religion of + our day. The civilized world has outgrown the greater part of the + Christian creed. Civilized people have lost their belief in the reforming + power of punishment. They find that whips and imprisonment have but little + influence for good. The truth has dawned upon their minds that eternal + punishment is infinite cruelty—that it can serve no good purpose and + that the eternity of hell makes heaven impossible. That there can be in + this universe no perfectly happy place while there is a perfectly + miserable place—that no infinite being can be good who knowingly + and, as one may say, willfully created myriads of human beings, knowing + that they would be eternally miserable. In other words, the civilized man + is greater, tenderer, nobler, nearer just than the old idea of God. The + ideal of a few thousand years ago is far below the real of to-day. No good + man now would do what Jehovah is said to have done four thousand years + ago, and no civilized human being would now do what, according to the + Christian religion, Christ threatens to do at the day of judgment. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Has the Christian religion changed in theory of late + years, Colonel Ingersoll? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. A few years ago the Deists denied the inspiration of the + Bible on account of its cruelty. At the same time they worshiped what they + were pleased to call the God of Nature. Now we are convinced that Nature + is as cruel as the Bible; so that, if the God of Nature did not write the + Bible, this God at least has caused earthquakes and pestilence and famine, + and this God has allowed millions of his children to destroy one another. + So that now we have arrived at the question—not as to whether the + Bible is inspired and not as to whether Jehovah is the real God, but + whether there is a God or not. The intelligence of Christendom to-day does + not believe in an inspired art or an inspired literature. If there be an + infinite God, inspiration in some particular regard would be a patch—it + would be the puttying of a crack, the hiding of a defect —in other + words, it would show that the general plan was defective. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you consider any religion adequate? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. A good man, living in England, drawing a certain salary for + reading certain prayers on stated occasions, for making a few remarks on + the subject of religion, putting on clothes of a certain cut, wearing a + gown with certain frills and flounces starched in an orthodox manner, and + then looking about him at the suffering and agony of the world, would not + feel satisfied that he was doing anything of value for the human race. In + the first place, he would deplore his own weakness, his own poverty, his + inability to help his fellow-men. He would long every moment for wealth, + that he might feed the hungry and clothe the naked—for knowledge, + for miraculous power, that he might heal the sick and the lame and that he + might give to the deformed the beauty of proportion. He would begin to + wonder how a being of infinite goodness and infinite power could allow his + children to die, to suffer, to be deformed by necessity, by poverty, to be + tempted beyond resistance; how he could allow the few to live in luxury, + and the many in poverty and want, and the more he wondered the more + useless and ironical would seem to himself his sermons and his prayers. + Such a man is driven to the conclusion that religion accomplishes but + little—that it creates as much want as it alleviates, and that it + burdens the world with parasites. Such a man would be forced to think of + the millions wasted in superstition. In other words, the inadequacy, the + uselessness of religion would be forced upon his mind. He would ask + himself the question: "Is it possible that this is a divine institution? + Is this all that man can do with the assistance of God? Is this the best?" + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. That is a perfectly reasonable question, is it not, + Colonel Ingersoll? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The moment a man reaches the point where he asks himself + this question he has ceased to be an orthodox Christian. It will not do to + say that in some other world justice will be done. If God allows injustice + to triumph here, why not there? + </p> + <p> + Robert Elsmere stands in the dawn of philosophy. There is hardly light + enough for him to see clearly; but there is so much light that the stars + in the night of superstition are obscured. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. You do not deny that a religious belief is a comfort? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. There is one thing that it is impossible for me to + comprehend. Why should any one, when convinced that Christianity is a + superstition, have or feel a sense of loss? Certainly a man acquainted + with England, with London, having at the same time something like a heart, + must feel overwhelmed by the failure of what is known as Christianity. + Hundreds of thousands exist there without decent food, dwelling in + tenements, clothed with rags, familiar with every form of vulgar vice, + where the honest poor eat the crust that the vicious throw away. When this + man of intelligence, of heart, visits the courts; when he finds human + liberty a thing treated as of no value, and when he hears the judge + sentencing girls and boys to the penitentiary—knowing that a stain + is being put upon them that all the tears of all the coming years can + never wash away—knowing, too, and feeling that this is done without + the slightest regret, without the slightest sympathy, as a mere matter of + form, and that the judge puts this brand of infamy upon the forehead of + the convict just as cheerfully as a Mexican brands his cattle; and when + this man of intelligence and heart knows that these poor people are simply + the victims of society, the unfortunates who stumble and over whose bodies + rolls the Juggernaut—he knows that there is, or at least appears to + be, no power above or below working for righteousness—that from the + heavens is stretched no protecting hand. And when a man of intelligence + and heart in England visits the workhouse, the last resting place of + honest labor; when he thinks that the young man, without any great + intelligence, but with a good constitution, starts in the morning of his + life for the workhouse, and that it is impossible for the laboring man, + one who simply has his muscle, to save anything; that health is not able + to lay anything by for the days of disease—when the man of + intelligence and heart sees all this, he is compelled to say that the + civilization of to-day, the religion of to-day, the charity of to-day—no + matter how much of good there may be behind them or in them, are failures. + </p> + <p> + A few years ago people were satisfied when the minister said: "All this + will be made even in another world; a crust-eater here will sit at the + head of the banquet there, and the king here will beg for the crumbs that + fall from the table there." When this was said, the poor man hoped and the + king laughed. A few years ago the church said to the slave: "You will be + free in another world, and your freedom will be made glorious by the + perpetual spectacle of your master in hell." But the people—that is, + many of the people—are no longer deceived by what once were + considered fine phrases. They have suffered so much that they no longer + wish to see others suffer and no longer think of the suffering of others + as a source of joy to themselves. The poor see that the eternal starvation + of kings and queens in another world will be no compensation for what they + have suffered there. The old religions appear vulgar and the ideas of + rewards and punishments are only such as would satisfy a cannibal chief or + one of his favorites. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think the Christian religion has made the world + better? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. For many centuries there has been preached and taught in an + almost infinite number of ways a supernatural religion. During all this + time the world has been in the care of the Infinite, and yet every + imaginable vice has flourished, every imaginable pang has been suffered, + and every injustice has been done. During all these years the priests have + enslaved the minds, and the kings the bodies, of men. The priests did what + they did in the name of God, and the kings appeal to the same source of + authority. Man suffered as long as he could. Revolution, reformation, was + simply a re- action, a cry from the poor wretch that was between the upper + and the nether millstone. The liberty of man has increased just in the + proportion that the authority of the gods has decreased. In other words, + the wants of man, instead of the wishes of God, have inaugurated what we + call progress, and there is this difference: Theology is based upon the + narrowest and intensest form of selfishness. Of course, the theologian + knows, the Christian knows, that he can do nothing for God; consequently + all that he does must be and is for himself, his object being to win the + approbation of this God, to the end that he may become a favorite. On the + other side, men touched not only by their own misfortunes, but by the + misfortunes of others, are moved not simply by selfishness, but by a + splendid sympathy with their fellow-men. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Christianity certainly fosters charity? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Nothing is more cruel than orthodox theology, nothing more + heartless than a charitable institution. For instance, in England, think + for a moment of the manner in which charities are distributed, the way in + which the crust is flung at Lazarus. If that parable could be now retold, + the dogs would bite him. The same is true in this country. The institution + has nothing but contempt for the one it relieves. The people in charge + regard the pauper as one who has wrecked himself. They feel very much as a + man would feel rescuing from the water some hare-brained wretch who had + endeavored to swim the rapids of Niagara—the moment they reach him + they begin to upbraid him for being such a fool. This course makes charity + a hypocrite, with every pauper for its enemy. + </p> + <p> + Mrs. Ward compelled Robert Elsmere to perceive, in some slight degree, the + failure of Christianity to do away with vice and suffering, with poverty + and crime. We know that the rich care but little for the poor. No matter + how religious the rich may be, the sufferings of their fellows have but + little effect upon them. We are also beginning to see that what is called + charity will never redeem this world. + </p> + <p> + The poor man willing to work, eager to maintain his independence, knows + that there is something higher than charity—that is to say, justice. + He finds that many years before he was born his country was divided out + between certain successful robbers, flatterers, cringers and crawlers, and + that in consequence of such division not only he himself, but a large + majority of his fellow-men are tenants, renters, occupying the surface of + the earth only at the pleasure of others. He finds, too, that these people + who have done nothing and who do nothing, have everything, and that those + who do everything have but little. He finds that idleness has the money + and that the toilers are compelled to bow to the idlers. He finds also + that the young men of genius are bribed by social distinctions —unconsciously + it may be—but still bribed in a thousand ways. He finds that the + church is a kind of waste-basket into which are thrown the younger sons of + titled idleness. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you consider that society in general has been made + better by religious influences? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Society is corrupted because the laurels, the titles, are + in the keeping and within the gift of the corrupters. Christianity is not + an enemy of this system—it is in harmony with it. Christianity + reveals to us a universe presided over by an infinite autocrat—a + universe without republicanism, without democracy—a universe where + all power comes from one and the same source, and where everyone using + authority is accountable, not to the people, but to this supposed source + of authority. Kings reign by divine right. Priests are ordained in a + divinely appointed way—they do not get their office from man. Man is + their servant, not their master. + </p> + <p> + In the story of Robert Elsmere all there is of Christianity is left except + the miraculous. Theism remains, and the idea of a protecting Providence is + left, together with a belief in the immeasurable superiority of Jesus + Christ. That is to say, the miracles are discarded for lack of evidence, + and only for lack of evidence; not on the ground that they are impossible, + not on the ground that they impeach and deny the integrity of cause and + effect, not on the ground that they contradict the self-evident + proposition that an effect must have an efficient cause, but like the + Scotch verdict, "not proven." It is an effort to save and keep in repair + the dungeons of the Inquisition for the sake of the beauty of the vines + that have overrun them. Many people imagine that falsehoods may become + respectable on account of age, that a certain reverence goes with + antiquity, and that if a mistake is covered with the moss of sentiment it + is altogether more credible than a parvenu fact. They endeavor to + introduce the idea of aristocracy into the world of thought, believing, + and honestly believing, that a falsehood long believed is far superior to + a truth that is generally denied. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. If Robert Elsmere's views were commonly adopted what + would be the effect? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The new religion of Elsmere is, after all, only a system of + outdoor relief, an effort to get successful piracy to give up a larger per + cent. for the relief of its victims. The abolition of the system is not + dreamed of. A civilized minority could not by any possibility be happy + while a majority of the world were miserable. A civilized majority could + not be happy while a minority were miserable. As a matter of fact, a + civilized world could not be happy while one man was really miserable. At + the foundation of civilization is justice—that is to say, the giving + of an equal opportunity to all the children of men. Secondly, there can be + no civilization in the highest sense until sympathy becomes universal. We + must have a new definition for success. We must have new ideals. The man + who succeeds in amassing wealth, who gathers money for himself, is not a + success. It is an exceedingly low ambition to be rich to excite the envy + of others, or for the sake of the vulgar power it gives to triumph over + others. Such men are failures. So the man who wins fame, position, power, + and wins these for the sake of himself, and wields this power not for the + elevation of his fellow-men, but simply to control, is a miserable + failure. He may dispense thousands of millions in charity, and his charity + may be prompted by the meanest part of his nature—using it simply as + a bait to catch more fish and to prevent the rising tide of indignation + that might overwhelm him. Men who steal millions and then give a small + percentage to the Lord to gain the praise of the clergy and to bring the + salvation of their souls within the possibilities of imagination, are all + failures. + </p> + <p> + Robert Elsmere gains our affection and our applause to the extent that he + gives up what are known as orthodox views, and his wife Catherine retains + our respect in the proportion that she lives the doctrine that Elsmere + preaches. By doing what she believes to be right, she gains our + forgiveness for her creed. One is astonished that she can be as good as + she is, believing as she does. The utmost stretch of our intellectual + charity is to allow the old wine to be put in a new bottle, and yet she + regrets the absence of the old bottle—she really believes that the + bottle is the important thing—that the wine is but a secondary + consideration. She misses the label, and not having perfect confidence in + her own taste, she does not feel quite sure that the wine is genuine. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What, on the whole, is your judgment of the book? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think the book conservative. It is an effort to save + something—a few shreds and patches and ravelings—from the + wreck. Theism is difficult to maintain. Why should we expect an infinite + Being to do better in another world than he has done and is doing in this? + If he allows the innocent to suffer here, why not there? If he allows + rascality to succeed in this world, why not in the next? To believe in God + and to deny his personality is an exceedingly vague foundation for a + consolation. If you insist on his personality and power, then it is + impossible to account for what happens. Why should an infinite God allow + some of his children to enslave others? Why should he allow a child of his + to burn another child of his, under the impression that such a sacrifice + was pleasing to him? + </p> + <p> + Unitarianism lacks the motive power. Orthodox people who insist that + nearly everybody is going to hell, and that it is their duty to do what + little they can to save their souls, have what you might call a spur to + action. We can imagine a philanthropic man engaged in the business of + throwing ropes to persons about to go over the falls of Niagara, but we + can hardly think of his carrying on the business after being convinced + that there are no falls, or that people go over them in perfect safety. In + this country the question has come up whether all the heathen are bound to + be damned unless they believe in the gospel. Many admit that the heathen + will be saved if they are good people, and that they will not be damned + for not believing something that they never heard. The really orthodox + people—that is to say, the missionaries—instantly see that + this doctrine destroys their business. They take the ground that there is + but one way to be saved—you must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ—and + they are willing to admit, and cheerfully to admit, that the heathen for + many generations have gone in an unbroken column down to eternal wrath. + And they not only admit this, but insist upon it, to the end that + subscriptions may not cease. With them salary and salvation are + convertible terms. + </p> + <p> + The tone of this book is not of the highest. Too much stress is laid upon + social advantages—too much respect for fashionable folly and for + ancient absurdity. It is hard for me to appreciate the feelings of one who + thinks it difficult to give up the consolations of the gospel. What are + the consolations of the Church of England? It is a religion imposed upon + the people by authority. It is the gospel at the mouth of a cannon, at the + point of a bayonet, enforced by all authority, from the beadle to the + Queen. It is a parasite living upon tithes—these tithes being + collected by the army and navy. It produces nothing—is simply a + beggar—or rather an aggregation of beggars. It teaches nothing of + importance. It discovers nothing. It is under obligation not to + investigate. It has agreed to remain stationary not only, but to resist + all innovation. According to the creed of this church, a very large + proportion of the human race is destined to suffer eternal pain. This does + not interfere with the quiet, with the serenity and repose of the average + clergyman. They put on their gowns, they read the service, they repeat the + creed and feel that their duty has been done. How any one can feel that he + is giving up something of value when he finds that the Episcopal creed is + untrue is beyond my imagination. I should think that every good man and + woman would overflow with joy, that every heart would burst into countless + blossoms the moment the falsity of the Episcopal creed was established. + </p> + <p> + Christianity is the most heartless of all religions—the most + unforgiving, the most revengeful. According to the Episcopalian belief, + God becomes the eternal prosecutor of his own children. I know of no creed + believed by any tribe, not excepting the tribes where cannibalism is + practiced, that is more heartless, more inhuman than this. To find that + the creed is false is like being roused from a frightful dream, in which + hundreds of serpents are coiled about you, in which their eyes, gleaming + with hatred, are fixed on you, and finding the world bathed in sunshine + and the songs of birds in your ears and those you love about you. + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York World</i>, November 18, 1888. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0081" id="link0081"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + WORKING GIRLS. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of the work undertaken by the <i>World</i> + in behalf of the city slave girl? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I know of nothing better for a great journal to do. The + average girl is so helpless, and the greed of the employer is such, that + unless some newspaper or some person of great influence comes to her + assistance, she is liable not simply to be imposed upon, but to be made a + slave. Girls, as a rule, are so anxious to please, so willing to work, + that they bear almost every hardship without complaint. Nothing is more + terrible than to see the rich living on the work of the poor. One can + hardly imagine the utter heartlessness of a man who stands between the + wholesale manufacturer and the wretched women who make their living—or + rather retard their death—by the needle. How a human being can + consent to live on this profit, stolen from poverty, is beyond my + imagination. These men, when known, will be regarded as hyenas and + jackals. They are like the wild beasts which follow herds of cattle for + the purpose of devouring those that are injured or those that have fallen + by the wayside from weakness. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What effect has unlimited immigration on the wages of + women? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. If our country were overpopulated, the effect of + immigration would be to lessen wages, for the reason that the working + people of Europe are used to lower wages, and have been in the habit of + practicing an economy unknown to us. But this country is not + overpopulated. There is plenty of room for several hundred millions more. + Wages, however, are too low in the United States. The general tendency is + to leave the question of labor to what is called the law of supply and + demand. My hope is that in time we shall become civilized enough to know + that there is a higher law, or rather a higher meaning in the law of + supply and demand, than is now perceived. Year after year what are called + the necessaries of life increase. Many things now regarded as necessaries + were formerly looked upon as luxuries. So, as man becomes civilized, he + increases what may be called the necessities of his life. When perfectly + civilized, one of the necessities of his life will be that the lives of + others shall be of some value to them. A good man is not happy so long as + he knows that other good men and women suffer for raiment and for food, + and have no roof but the sky, no home but the highway. Consequently what + is called the law of supply and demand will then have a much larger + meaning. + </p> + <p> + In nature everything lives upon something else. Life feeds upon life. + Something is lying in wait for something else, and even the victim is + weaving a web or crouching for some other victim, and the other victim is + in the same business—watching for something else. The same is true + in the human world—people are living on each other; the cunning + obtain the property of the simple; wealth picks the pockets of poverty; + success is a highwayman leaping from the hedge. The rich combine, the poor + are unorganized, without the means to act in concert, and for that reason + become the prey of combinations and trusts. The great questions are: Will + man ever be sufficiently civilized to be honest? Will the time ever come + when it can truthfully be said that right is might? The lives of millions + of people are not worth living, because of their ignorance and poverty, + and the lives of millions of others are not worth living, on account of + their wealth and selfishness. The palace without justice, without charity, + is as terrible as the hovel without food. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What effect has the woman's suffrage movement had on the + breadwinners of the country? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think the women who have been engaged in the struggle for + equal rights have done good for women in the direction of obtaining equal + wages for equal work. There has also been for many years a tendency among + women in our country to become independent —a desire to make their + own living—to win their own bread. So many husbands are utterly + useless, or worse, that many women hardly feel justified in depending + entirely on a husband for the future. They feel somewhat safer to know how + to do something and earn a little money themselves. If men were what they + ought to be, few women would be allowed to labor—that is to say, to + toil. It should be the ambition of every healthy and intelligent man to + take care of, to support, to make happy, some woman. As long as women bear + the burdens of the world, the human race can never attain anything like a + splendid civilization. There will be no great generation of men until + there has been a great generation of women. For my part, I am glad to hear + this question discussed—glad to know that thousands of women take + some interest in the fortunes and in the misfortunes of their sisters. + </p> + <p> + The question of wages for women is a thousand times more important than + sending missionaries to China or to India. There is plenty for + missionaries to do here. And by missionaries I do not mean gentlemen and + ladies who distribute tracts or quote Scripture to people out of work. If + we are to better the condition of men and women we must change their + surroundings. The tenement house breeds a moral pestilence. There can be + in these houses no home, no fireside, no family, for the reason that there + is no privacy, no walls between them and the rest of the world. There is + no sacredness, no feeling, "this is ours." + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Might not the rich do much? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It would be hard to overestimate the good that might be + done by the millionaires if they would turn their attention to sending + thousands and thousands into the country or to building them homes miles + from the city, where they could have something like privacy, where the + family relations could be kept with some sacredness. Think of the "homes" + in which thousands and thousands of young girls are reared in our large + cities. Think of what they see and what they hear; of what they come in + contact with. How is it possible for the virtues to grow in the damp and + darkened basements? Can we expect that love and chastity and all that is + sweet and gentle will be produced in these surroundings, in cellars and + garrets, in poverty and dirt? The surroundings must be changed. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are the fathers and brothers blameless who allow young + girls to make coats, cloaks and vests in an atmosphere poisoned by the + ignorant and low-bred? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The same causes now brutalizing girls brutalize their + fathers and brothers, and the same causes brutalize the ignorant and + low-lived that poison the air in which these girls are made to work. It is + hard to pick out one man and say that he is to blame, or one woman and say + that the fault is hers. We must go back of all this. In my opinion, + society raises its own failures, its own criminals, its own wretches of + every sort and kind. Great pains are taken to raise these crops. The + seeds, it may be, were sown thousands of years ago, but they were sown, + and the present is the necessary child of all the past. If the future is + to differ from the present, the seeds must now be sown. It is not simply a + question of charity, or a question of good nature, or a question of what + we call justice—it is a question of intelligence. In the first + place, I suppose that it is the duty of every human being to support + himself—first, that he may not become a burden upon others, and + second, that he may help others. I think all people should be taught + never, under any circumstances, if by any possibility they can avoid it, + to become a burden. Every one should be taught the nobility of labor, the + heroism and splendor of honest effort. As long as it is considered + disgraceful to labor, or aristocratic not to labor, the world will be + filled with idleness and crime, and with every possible moral deformity. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Has the public school system anything to do with the army + of pupils who, after six years of study, willingly accept the injustice + and hardship imposed by capital? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The great trouble with the public school is that many + things are taught that are of no immediate use. I believe in manual + training schools. I believe in the kindergarten system. Every person ought + to be taught how to do something—ought to be taught the use of their + hands. They should endeavor to put in palpable form the ideas that they + gain. Such an education gives them a confidence in themselves, a + confidence in the future—gives them a spirit and feeling of + independence that they do not now have. Men go through college studying + for many years, and when graduated have not the slightest conception of + how to make a living in any department of human effort. Thousands of them + are to-day doing manual labor and doing it very poorly, whereas, if they + had been taught the use of tools, the use of their hands, they would + derive a certain pleasure from their work. It is splendid to do anything + well. One can be just as poetic working with iron and wood as working with + words and colors. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What ought to be done, or what is to be the end? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The great thing is for the people to know the facts. There + are thousands and millions of splendid and sympathetic people who would + willingly help, if they only knew; but they go through the world in such a + way that they know but little of it. They go to their place of business; + they stay in their offices for a few hours; they go home; they spend the + evening there or at a club; they come in contact with the well-to-do, with + the successful, with the satisfied, and they know nothing of the thousands + and millions on every side. They have not the least idea how the world + lives, how it works, how it suffers. They read, of course, now and then, + some paragraph in which the misfortune of some wretch is set forth, but + the wretch is a kind of steel engraving, an unreal shadow, a something + utterly unlike themselves. The real facts should be brought home, the + sympathies of men awakened, and awakened to such a degree that they will + go and see how these people live, see how they work, see how they suffer. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Does exposure do any good? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I hope that <i>The World</i> will keep on. I hope that it + will express every horror that it can, connected with the robbery of poor + and helpless girls, and I hope that it will publish the names of all the + robbers it can find, and the wretches who oppress the poor and who live + upon the misfortunes of women. + </p> + <p> + The crosses of this world are mostly born by wives, by mothers and by + daughters. Their brows are pierced by thorns. They shed the bitterest + tears. They live and suffer and die for others. It is almost enough to + make one insane to think of what woman, in the years of savagery and + civilization, has suffered. Think of the anxiety and agony of motherhood. + Maternity is the most pathetic fact in the universe. Think how helpless + girls are. Think of the thorns in the paths they walk—of the trials, + the temptations, the want, the misfortune, the dangers and anxieties that + fill their days and nights. Every true man will sympathize with woman, and + will do all in his power to lighten her burdens and increase the sunshine + of her life. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is there any remedy? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have always wondered that the great corporations have + made no provisions for their old and worn out employees. It seems to me + that not only great railway companies, but great manufacturing + corporations, ought to provide for their workmen. Many of them are worn + out, unable longer to work, and they are thrown aside like old clothes. + They find their way to the poorhouses or die in tenements by the roadside. + This seems almost infinitely heartless. Men of great wealth, engaged in + manufacturing, instead of giving five hundred thousand dollars for a + library, or a million dollars for a college, ought to put this money + aside, invest it in bonds of the Government, and the interest ought to be + used in taking care of the old, of the helpless, of those who meet with + accidents in their work. Under our laws, if an employee is caught in a + wheel or in a band, and his arm or leg is torn off, he is left to the + charity of the community, whereas the profits of the business ought to + support him in his old age. If employees had this feeling—that they + were not simply working for that day, not simply working while they have + health and strength, but laying aside a little sunshine for the winter of + age—if they only felt that they, by their labor, were creating a + fireside in front of which their age and helplessness could sit, the + feeling between employed and employers would be a thousand times better. + On the great railways very few people know the number of the injured, of + those who lose their hands or feet, of those who contract diseases riding + on the tops of freight trains in snow and sleet and storm; and yet, when + these men become old and helpless through accident, they are left to shift + for themselves. The company is immortal, but the employees become + helpless. Now, it seems to me that a certain per cent. should be laid + aside, so that every brakeman and conductor could feel that he was + providing for himself, as well as for his fellow-workmen, so that when the + dark days came there would be a little light. + </p> + <p> + The men of wealth, the men who control these great corporations— + these great mills—give millions away in ostentatious charity. They + send missionaries to foreign lands. They endow schools and universities + and allow the men who earned the surplus to die in want. I believe in no + charity that is founded on robbery. I have no admiration for generous + highwaymen or extravagant pirates. At the foundation of charity should be + justice. Let these men whom others have made wealthy give something to + their workmen—something to those who created their fortunes. This + would be one step in the right direction. Do not let it be regarded as + charity—let it be regarded as justice. + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York World</i>, December 2, 1888. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0082" id="link0082"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + PROTECTION FOR AMERICAN ACTORS. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. It is reported that you have been retained as counsel for + the Actors' Order of Friendship—the Edwin Forrest Lodge of New York, + and the Shakespeare Lodge of Philadelphia—for the purpose of + securing the necessary legislation to protect American actors— is + that so? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, I have been retained for that purpose, and the object + is simply that American actors may be put upon an equal footing with + Americans engaged in other employments. There is a law now which prevents + contractors going abroad and employing mechanics or skilled workmen, and + bringing them to this country to take the places of our citizens. + </p> + <p> + No one objects to the English, German and French mechanics coming with + their wives and children to this country and making their homes here. Our + ports are open, and have been since the foundation of this Government. + Wages are somewhat higher in this country than in any other, and the man + who really settles here, who becomes, or intends to become an American + citizen, will demand American wages. But if a manufacturer goes to Europe, + he can make a contract there and bring hundreds and thousands of mechanics + to this country who will work for less wages than the American, and a law + was passed to prevent the American manufacturer, who was protected by a + tariff, from burning the laborer's candle at both ends. That is to say, we + do not wish to give him the American price, by means of a tariff, and then + allow him to go to Europe and import his labor at the European price. + </p> + <p> + In the law, actors were excepted, and we now find the managers are + bringing entire companies from the old county, making contracts with them + there, and getting them at much lower prices than they would have had to + pay for American actors. + </p> + <p> + No one objects to a foreign actor coming here for employment, but we do + not want an American manager to go there, and employ him to act here. No + one objects to the importation of a star. We wish to see and hear the best + actors in the world. But the rest of the company—the support—should + be engaged in the United States, if the star speaks English. + </p> + <p> + I see that it is contended over in England, that English actors are + monopolizing the American stage because they speak English, while the + average American actor does not. The real reason is that the English actor + works for less money—he is the cheaper article. Certainly no one + will accuse the average English actor of speaking English. The hemming and + hawing, the aristocratic stutter, the dropping of h's and picking them up + at the wrong time, have never been popular in the United States, except by + way of caricature. Nothing is more absurd than to take the ground that the + English actors are superior to the American. I know of no English actor + who can for a moment be compared with Joseph Jefferson, or with Edwin + Booth, or with Lawrence Barrett, or with Denman Thompson, and I could + easily name others. + </p> + <p> + If English actors are so much better than American, how is it that an + American star is supported by the English? Mary Anderson is certainly an + American actress, and she is supported by English actors. Is it possible + that the superior support the inferior? I do not believe that England has + her equal as an actress. Her Hermione is wonderful, and the appeal to + Apollo sublime. In Perdita she "takes the winds of March with beauty." + Where is an actress on the English stage the superior of Julia Marlowe in + genius, in originality, in naturalness? + </p> + <p> + Is there any better Mrs. Malaprop than Mrs. Drew, and better Sir Anthony + than John Gilbert? No one denies that the English actors and actresses are + great. No one will deny that the plays of Shakespeare are the greatest + that have been produced, and no one wishes in any way to belittle the + genius of the English people. + </p> + <p> + In this country the average person speaks fairly good English, and you + will find substantially the same English spoken in most of the country; + whereas in England there is a different dialect in almost every county, + and most of the English people speak the language as if was not their + native tongue. I think it will be admitted that the English write a good + deal better than they speak, and that their pronunciation is not + altogether perfect. + </p> + <p> + These things, however, are not worth speaking of. There is no absolute + standard. They speak in the way that is natural to them, and we in the way + that is natural to us. This difference furnishes no foundation for a claim + of general superiority. The English actors are not brought here on account + of their excellence, but on account of their cheapness. It requires no + great ability to play the minor parts, or the leading roles in some plays, + for that matter. And yet acting is a business, a profession, a means of + getting bread. + </p> + <p> + We protect our mechanics and makers of locomotives and of all other + articles. Why should we not protect, by the same means, the actor? You may + say that we can get along without actors. So we can get along without + painters, without sculptors and without poets. But a nation that gets + along without these people of genius amounts to but little. We can do + without music, without players and without composers; but when we take art + and poetry and music and the theatre out of the world, it becomes an + exceedingly dull place. + </p> + <p> + Actors are protected and cared for in proportion that people are + civilized. If the people are intelligent, educated, and have imaginations, + they enjoy the world of the stage, the creations of poets, and they are + thrilled by great music, and, as a consequence, respect the dramatist, the + actor and the musician. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. It is claimed that an amendment to the law, such as is + desired, will interfere with the growth of art? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. No one is endeavoring to keep stars from this country. If + they have American support, and the stars really know anything, the + American actors will get the benefit. If they bring their support with + them, the American actor is not particularly benefitted, and the star, + when the season is over, takes his art and his money with him. + </p> + <p> + Managers who insist on employing foreign support are not sacrificing + anything for art. Their object is to make money. They care nothing for the + American actor—nothing for the American drama. They look for the + receipts. It is the sheerest cant to pretend that they are endeavoring to + protect art. + </p> + <p> + On the 26th of February, 1885, a law was passed making it unlawful "for + any person, company, partnership or corporation, in any manner whatsoever, + to prepay the transportation, or in any way assist or encourage the + importation or emigration of any alien or aliens into the United States, + under contract or agreement, parol or special, previous to the importation + or emigration of such aliens to perform labor or services of any kind the + United States." + </p> + <p> + By this act it was provided that its provisions should not apply to + professional actors, artists, lecturers or singers, in regard to persons + employed strictly as personal or domestic servants. The object now in view + is so to amend the law that its provision shall apply to all actors except + stars. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. In this connection there has been so much said about the + art of acting—what is your idea as to that art? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Above all things in acting, there must be proportion. There + are no miracles in art or nature. All that is done—every inflection + and gesture—must be in perfect harmony with the circumstances. + Sensationalism is based on deformity, and bears the same relation to + proportion that caricature does to likeness. + </p> + <p> + The stream that flows even with its banks, making the meadows green, + delights us ever; the one that overflows surprises for a moment. But we do + not want a succession of floods. + </p> + <p> + In acting there must be natural growth, not sudden climax. The atmosphere + of the situation, the relation sustained to others, should produce the + emotions. Nothing should be strained. Beneath domes there should be + buildings, and buildings should have foundations. There must be growth. + There should be the bud, the leaf, the flower, in natural sequence. There + must be no leap from naked branches to the perfect fruit. + </p> + <p> + Most actors depend on climax—they save themselves for the supreme + explosion. The scene opens with a slow match and ends when the spark + reaches the dynamite. So, most authors fill the first act with + contradictions and the last with explanations. Plots and counter-plots, + violence and vehemence, perfect saints and perfect villains—that is + to say, monsters, impelled by improbable motives, meet upon the stage, + where they are pushed and pulled for the sake of the situation, and where + everything is so managed that the fire reaches the powder and the + explosion is the climax. + </p> + <p> + There is neither time, nor climate, nor soil, in which the emotions and + intentions may grow. No land is plowed, no seed is sowed, no rain falls, + no light glows—the events are all orphans. + </p> + <p> + No one would enjoy a sudden sunset—we want the clouds of gold that + float in the azure sea. No one would enjoy a sudden sunrise—we are + in love with the morning star, with the dawn that modestly heralds the day + and draws aside, with timid hands, the curtains of the night. In other + words, we want sequence, proportion, logic, beauty. + </p> + <p> + There are several actors in this country who are in perfect accord with + nature—who appear to make no effort—whose acting seems to give + them joy and rest. We do well what we do easily. It is a great mistake to + exhaust yourself, instead of the subject. All great actors "fill the + stage" because they hold the situation. You see them and nothing else. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Speaking of American actors, Colonel, I believe you are + greatly interested in the playing of Miss Marlowe, and have given your + opinion of her as Parthenia; what do you think of her Julia and Viola? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. A little while ago I saw Miss Marlowe as Julia, in "The + Hunchback." We must remember the limitations of the play. Nothing can + excel the simplicity, the joyous content of the first scene. Nothing could + be more natural than the excitement produced by the idea of leaving what + you feel to be simple and yet good, for what you think is magnificent, + brilliant and intoxicating. It is only in youth that we are willing to + make this exchange. One does not see so clearly in the morning of life + when the sun shines in his eyes. In the afternoon, when the sun is behind + him, he sees better —he is no longer dazzled. In old age we are not + only willing, but anxious, to exchange wealth and fame and glory and + magnificence, for simplicity. All the palaces are nothing compared with + our little cabin, and all the flowers of the world are naught to the wild + rose that climbs and blossoms by the lowly window of content. + </p> + <p> + Happiness dwells in the valleys with the shadows. + </p> + <p> + The moment Julia is brought in contact with wealth, she longs for the + simple—for the true love of one true man. Wealth and station are + mockeries. These feelings, these emotions, Miss Marlowe rendered not only + with look and voice and gesture, but with every pose of her body; and when + assured that her nuptials with the Earl could be avoided, the only + question in her mind was as to the absolute preservation of her honor—not + simply in fact, but in appearance, so that even hatred could not see a + speck upon the shining shield of her perfect truth. In this scene she was + perfect—everything was forgotten except the desire to be absolutely + true. + </p> + <p> + So in the scene with Master Walter, when he upbraids her for forgetting + that she is about to meet her father, when excusing her forgetfulness on + the ground that he has been to her a father. Nothing could exceed the + delicacy and tenderness of this passage. Every attitude expressed love, + gentleness, and a devotion even unto death. One felt that there could be + no love left for the father she expected to meet—Master Walter had + it all. + </p> + <p> + A greater Julia was never on the stage—one in whom so much passion + mingled with so much purity. Miss Marlowe never "o'ersteps the modesty of + nature." She maintains proportion. The river of her art flows even with + the banks. + </p> + <p> + In Viola, we must remember the character—a girl just rescued from + the sea—disguised as a boy—employed by the Duke, whom she + instantly loves—sent as his messenger to woo another for him—Olivia + enamored of the messenger—forced to a duel—mistaken for her + brother by the Captain, and her brother taken for herself by Olivia—and + yet, in the midst of these complications and disguises, she remains a pure + and perfect girl—these circumstances having no more real effect upon + her passionate and subtle self than clouds on stars. + </p> + <p> + When Malvolio follows and returns the ring the whole truth flashes upon + her. She is in love with Orsino—this she knows. Olivia, she + believes, is in love with her. The edge of the situation, the dawn of this + entanglement, excites her mirth. In this scene she becomes charming—an + impersonation of Spring. Her laughter is as natural and musical as the + song of a brook. So, in the scene with Olivia in which she cries, "Make me + a willow cabin at your gate!" she is the embodiment of grace, and her + voice is as musical as the words, and as rich in tone as they are in + thought. + </p> + <p> + In the duel with Sir Andrew she shows the difference between the delicacy + of woman and the cowardice of man. She does the little that she can, not + for her own sake, but for the sake of her disguise —she feels that + she owes something to her clothes. + </p> + <p> + But I have said enough about this actress to give you an idea of one who + is destined to stand first in her profession. + </p> + <p> + We will now come back to the real question. I am in favor of protecting + the American actor. I regard the theatre as the civilizer of man. All the + arts united upon the stage, and the genius of the race has been lavished + on this mimic world. + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York Star</i>, December 23, 1888. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0083" id="link0083"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + LIBERALS AND LIBERALISM. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the prospects of Liberalism in this + country? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The prospects of Liberalism are precisely the same as the + prospects of civilization—that is to say, of progress. As the people + become educated, they become liberal. Bigotry is the provincialism of the + mind. Men are bigoted who are not acquainted with the thoughts of others. + They have been taught one thing, and have been made to believe that their + little mental horizon is the circumference of all knowledge. The bigot + lives in an ignorant village, surrounded by ignorant neighbors. This is + the honest bigot. The dishonest bigot may know better, but he remains a + bigot because his salary depends upon it. A bigot is like a country that + has had no commerce with any other. He imagines that in his little head + there is everything of value. When a man becomes an intellectual explorer, + an intellectual traveler, he begins to widen, to grow liberal. He finds + that the ideas of others are as good as and often better than his own. The + habits and customs of other people throw light on his own, and by this + light he is enabled to discover at least some of his own mistakes. Now the + world has become acquainted. A few years ago, a man knew something of the + doctrines of his own church. Now he knows the creeds of others, and not + only so, but he has examined to some extent the religions of other + nations. He finds in other creeds all the excellencies that are in his + own, and most of the mistakes. In this way he learns that all creeds have + been produced by men, and that their differences have been accounted for + by race, climate, heredity—that is to say, by a difference in + circumstances. So we now know that the cause of Liberalism is the cause of + civilization. Unless the race is to be a failure, the cause of Liberalism + must succeed. Consequently, I have the same faith in that cause that I + have in the human race. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Where are the most Liberals, and in what section of the + country is the best work for Liberalism being done? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The most Liberals are in the most intelligent section of + the United States. Where people think the most, there you will find the + most Liberals; where people think the least, you will find the most + bigots. Bigotry is produced by feeling—Liberalism by thinking—that + is to say, the one is a prejudice, the other a principle. Every geologist, + every astronomer, every scientist, is doing a noble work for Liberalism. + Every man who finds a fact, and demonstrates it, is doing work for the + cause. All the literature of our time that is worth reading is on the + liberal side. All the fiction that really interests the human mind is with + us. No one cares to read the old theological works. Essays written by + professors of theological colleges are regarded, even by Christians, with + a kind of charitable contempt. When any demonstration of science is + attacked by a creed, or a passage of Scripture, all the intelligent smile. + For these reasons I think that the best work for Liberalism is being done + where the best work for science is being done—where the best work + for man is being accomplished. Every legislator that assists in the repeal + of theological laws is doing a great work for Liberalism. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. In your opinion, what relation do Liberalism and + Prohibition bear to each other? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not think they have anything to do with each other. + They have nothing in common except this: The Prohibitionists, I presume, + are endeavoring to do what they can for temperance; so all intelligent + Liberals are doing what they can for the cause of temperance. The + Prohibitionist endeavors to accomplish his object by legislation—the + Liberalist by education, by civilization, by example, by persuasion. The + method of the Liberalist is good, that of the Prohibitionist chimerical + and fanatical. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think that Liberals should undertake a reform in + the marriage and divorce laws and relations? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think that Liberals should do all in their power to + induce people to regard marriage and divorce in a sensible light, and + without the slightest reference to any theological ideas. They should use + their influence to the end that marriage shall be considered as a contract—the + highest and holiest that men and women can make. And they should also use + their influence to have the laws of divorce based on this fundamental + idea,—that marriage is a contract. All should be done that can be + done by law to uphold the sacredness of this relation. All should be done + that can be done to impress upon the minds of all men and all women their + duty to discharge all the obligations of the marriage contract faithfully + and cheerfully. I do not believe that it is to the interest of the State + or of the Nation, that people should be compelled to live together who + hate each other, or that a woman should be bound to a man who has been + false and who refuses to fulfill the contract of marriage. I do not + believe that any man should call upon the police, or upon the creeds, or + upon the church, to compel his wife to remain under his roof, or to compel + a woman against her will to become the mother of his children. In other + words, Liberals should endeavor to civilize mankind, and when men and + women are civilized, the marriage question, and the divorce question, will + be settled. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Should Liberals vote on Liberal issues? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think that, other things being anywhere near equal, + Liberals should vote for men who believe in liberty, men who believe in + giving to others the rights they claim for themselves—that is to + say, for civilized men, for men of some breadth of mind. Liberals should + do what they can to do away with all the theological absurdities. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Can, or ought, the Liberals and Spiritualists to unite? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. All people should unite where they have objects in common. + They can vote together, and act together, without believing the same on + all points. A Liberal is not necessarily a Spiritualist, and a + Spiritualist is not necessarily a Liberal. If Spiritualists wish to + liberalize the Government, certainly Liberals would be glad of their + assistance, and if Spiritualists take any step in the direction of + freedom, the Liberals should stand by them to that extent. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Which is the more dangerous to American institutions + —the National Reform Association (God-in-the-Constitution party) or + the Roman Catholic Church? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The Association and the Catholic Church are dangerous + according to their power. The Catholic Church has far more power than the + Reform Association, and is consequently far more dangerous. The + God-in-the-Constitution association is weak, fanatical, stupid, and + absurd. What God are we to have in the Constitution? Whose God? If we + should agree to-morrow to put God in the Constitution, the question would + then be: Which God? On that question, the religious world would fall out. + In that direction there is no danger. But the Roman Catholic Church is the + enemy of intellectual liberty. It is the enemy of investigation. It is the + enemy of free schools. That church always has been, always will be, the + enemy of freedom. It works in the dark. When in a minority it is humility + itself—when in power it is the impersonation of arrogance. In + weakness it crawls—in power it stands erect, and compels its victims + to fall upon their faces. The most dangerous institution in this world, so + far as the intellectual liberty of man is concerned, is the Roman Catholic + Church. Next to that is the Protestant Church. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of the Christian religion and the + Christian Church? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. My opinion upon this subject is certainly well known. The + Christian Church is founded upon miracles—that is to say, upon + impossibilities. Of course, there is a great deal that is good in the + creeds of the churches, and in the sermons delivered by its ministers; but + mixed with this good is much that is evil. My principal objection to + orthodox religion is the dogma of eternal pain. Nothing can be more + infamously absurd. All civilized men should denounce it—all women + should regard it with a kind of shuddering abhorrence. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Secular Thought</i>, Toronto, Canada, 1888. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0084" id="link0084"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + POPE LEO XIII. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you agree with the views of Pope Leo XIII. as + expressed in <i>The Herald</i> of last week? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I am not personally acquainted with Leo XIII., but I have + not the slightest idea that he loves Americans or their country. I regard + him as an enemy of intellectual liberty. He tells us that where the church + is free it will increase, and I say to him that where others are free it + will not. The Catholic Church has increased in this country by immigration + and in no other way. Possibly the Pope is willing to use his power for the + good of the whole people, Protestants and Catholics, and to increase their + prosperity and happiness, because by this he means that he will use his + power to make Catholics out of Protestants. + </p> + <p> + It is impossible for the Catholic Church to be in favor of mental freedom. + That church represents absolute authority. Its members have no right to + reason—no right to ask questions—they are called upon simply + to believe and to pay their subscriptions. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you agree with the Pope when he says that the result + of efforts which have been made to throw aside Christianity and live + without it can be seen in the present condition of society— + discontent, disorder, hatred and profound unhappiness? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Undoubtedly the people of Europe who wish to be free are + discontented. Undoubtedly these efforts to have something like justice + done will bring disorder. Those in power will hate those who are + endeavoring to drive them from their thrones. If the people now, as + formerly, would bear all burdens cheerfully placed upon their shoulders by + church and state—that is to say, if they were so enslaved mentally + that they would not even have sense enough to complain, then there would + be what the Pope might call "peace and happiness"—that is to say, + the peace of ignorance, and the happiness of those who are expecting pay + in another world for their agonies endured in this. + </p> + <p> + Of course, the revolutionaries of Europe are not satisfied with the + Catholic religion; neither are they satisfied with the Protestant. Both of + these religions rest upon authority. Both discourage reason. Both say "Let + him that hath ears to hear, hear," but neither say let him that hath + brains to think, think. + </p> + <p> + Christianity has been thoroughly tried, and it is a failure. Nearly every + church has upheld slavery, not only of the body, but of the mind. When + Christian missionaries invade what they call a heathen country, they are + followed in a little while by merchants and traders, and in a few days + afterward by the army. The first real work is to kill the heathen or steal + their lands, or else reduce them to something like slavery. + </p> + <p> + I have no confidence in the reformation of this world by churches. + Churches for the most part exist, not for this world, but for another. + They are founded upon the supernatural, and they say: "Take no thought for + the morrow; put your trust in your Heavenly Father and he will take care + of you." On the other hand, science says: "You must take care of yourself, + live for the world in which you happen to be—if there is another, + live for that when you get there." + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the plan to better the condition of + the workingmen, by committees headed by bishops of the Catholic Church, in + discussing their duties? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. If the bishops wish to discuss with anybody about duties + they had better discuss with the employers, instead of the employed. This + discussion had better take place between the clergy and the capitalist. + There is no need of discussing this question with the poor wretches who + cannot earn more than enough to keep their souls in their bodies. If the + Catholic Church has so much power, and if it represents God on earth, let + it turn its attention to softening the hearts of capitalists, and no + longer waste its time in preaching patience to the poor slaves who are now + bearing the burdens of the world. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you agree with the Pope that: "Sound rules of life + must be founded on religion"? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not. Sound rules of life must be founded on the + experience of mankind. In other words, we must live for this world. Why + should men throw away hundreds and thousands of millions of dollars in + building cathedrals and churches, and paying the salaries of bishops and + priests, and cardinals and popes, and get no possible return for all this + money except a few guesses about another world —those guesses being + stated as facts—when every pope and priest and bishop knows that no + one knows the slightest thing on the subject. Superstition is the greatest + burden borne by the industry of the world. + </p> + <p> + The nations of Europe to-day all pretend to be Christian, yet millions of + men are drilled and armed for the purpose of killing other Christians. + Each Christian nation is fortified to prevent other Christians from + devastating their fields. There is already a debt of about twenty-five + thousand millions of dollars which has been incurred by Christian nations, + because each one is afraid of every other, and yet all say: "It is our + duty to love our enemies." + </p> + <p> + This world, in my judgment, is to be reformed through intelligence —through + development of the mind—not by credulity, but by investigation; not + by faith in the supernatural, but by faith in the natural. The church has + passed the zenith of her power. The clergy must stand aside. Scientists + must take their places. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you agree with the Pope in attacking the present + governments of Europe and the memories of Mazzini and Saffi? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not. I think Mazzini was of more use to Italy than all + the popes that ever occupied the chair of St. Peter—which, by the + way, was not his chair. I have a thousand times more regard for Mazzini, + for Garibaldi, for Cavour, than I have for any gentleman who pretends to + be the representative of God. + </p> + <p> + There is another objection I have to the Pope, and that is that he was so + scandalized when a monument was reared in Rome to the memory of Giordano + Bruno. Bruno was murdered about two hundred and sixty years ago by the + Catholic Church, and such has been the development of the human brain and + heart that on the very spot where he was murdered a monument rises to his + memory. + </p> + <p> + But the vicar of God has remained stationary, and he regards this mark of + honor to one of the greatest and noblest of the human race as an act of + blasphemy. The poor old man acts as if America had never been discovered—as + if the world were still flat—and as if the stars had been made out + of little pieces left over from the creation of the world and stuck in the + sky simply to beautify the night. + </p> + <p> + But, after all, I do not blame this Pope. He is the victim of his + surroundings. He was never married. His heart was never softened by wife + or children. He was born that way, and, to tell you the truth, he has my + sincere sympathy. Let him talk about America and stay in Italy. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Herald</i>, New York, April 22, 1890. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0085" id="link0085"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE SACREDNESS OF THE SABBATH. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the sacredness of the Sabbath? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think all days, all times and all seasons are alike + sacred. I think the best day in a man's life is the day that he is truly + the happiest. Every day in which good is done to humanity is a holy day. + </p> + <p> + If I were to make a calendar of sacred days, I would put down the days in + which the greatest inventions came to the mind of genius; the days when + scattered tribes became nations; the days when good laws were passed; the + days when bad ones were repealed; the days when kings were dethroned, and + the people given their own; in other words, every day in which good has + been done; in which men and women have truly fallen in love, days in which + babes were born destined to change the civilization of the world. These + are all sacred days; days in which men have fought for the right, suffered + for the right, died for the right; all days in which there were heroic + actions for good. The day when slavery was abolished in the United States + is holier than any Sabbath by reason of "divine consecration." + </p> + <p> + Of course, I care nothing about the sacredness of the Sabbath because it + was hallowed in the Old Testament, or because of that day Jehovah is said + to have rested from his labors. A space of time cannot be sacred, any more + than a vacuum can be sacred, and it is rendered sacred by deeds done in + it, and not in and of itself. + </p> + <p> + If we should finally invent some means of traveling by which we could go a + thousand miles a day, a man could escape Sunday all his life by traveling + West. He could start Monday, and stay Monday all the time. Or, if he + should some time get near the North Pole, he could walk faster than the + earth turns and thus beat Sunday all the while. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Should not the museums and art galleries be thrown open + to the workingmen free on Sunday? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Undoubtedly. In all civilized countries this is done, and I + believe it would be done in New York, only it is said that money has been + given on condition that the museums should be kept closed on Sundays. I + have always heard it said that large sums will be withheld by certain old + people who have the prospect of dying in the near future if the museums + are open on Sunday. + </p> + <p> + This, however, seems to me a very poor and shallow excuse. Money should + not be received under such conditions. One of the curses of our country + has been the giving of gifts to colleges on certain conditions. As, for + instance, the money given to Andover by the original founder on the + condition that a certain creed be taught, and other large amounts have + been given on a like condition. Now, the result of this is that the + theological professor must teach what these donors have indicated, or go + out of the institution; or —and this last "or" is generally the + trouble—teach what he does not believe, endeavoring to get around it + by giving new meaning to old words. + </p> + <p> + I think the cause of intellectual progress has been much delayed by these + conditions put in the wills of supposed benefactors, so that after they + are dead they can rule people who have the habit of being alive. In my + opinion, a corpse is a poor ruler, and after a man is dead he should keep + quiet. + </p> + <p> + Of course all that he did will live, and should be allowed to have its + natural effect. If he was a great inventor or discoverer, or if he uttered + great truths, these became the property of the world; but he should not + endeavor, after he is dead, to rule the living by conditions attached to + his gifts. + </p> + <p> + All the museums and libraries should be opened, not only to workingmen, + but to all others. If to see great paintings, great statues, wonderful + works of art; if to read the thoughts of the greatest men—if these + things tend to the civilization of the race, then they should be put as + nearly as possible within the reach of all. + </p> + <p> + The man who works eight or ten or twelve hours a day has not time during + the six days of labor to visit libraries or museums. Sunday is his day of + leisure, his day of recreation, and on that day he should have the + privilege, and he himself should deem it a right to visit all the public + libraries and museums, parks and gardens. + </p> + <p> + In other words, I think the laboring man should have the same rights on + Sundays, to say the least of it, that wealthy people have on other days. + The man of wealth has leisure. He can attend these places on any day he + may desire; but necessity being the master of the poor man, Sunday is his + one day for such a purpose. For men of wealth to close the museums and + libraries on that day, shows that they have either a mistaken idea as to + the well-being of their fellow-men, or that they care nothing about the + rights of any except the wealthy. + </p> + <p> + Personally, I have no sort of patience with the theological snivel and + drivel about the sacredness of the Sabbath. I do not understand why they + do not accept the words of their own Christ, namely, that "the Sabbath was + made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." + </p> + <p> + The hypocrites of Judea were great sticklers for the Sabbath, and the + orthodox Christians of New York are exactly the same. My own opinion is + that a man who has been at work all the week, in the dust and heat, can + hardly afford to waste his Sunday in hearing an orthodox sermon—a + sermon that gives him the cheerful intelligence that his chances for being + damned are largely in the majority. I think it is far better for the + workingman to go out with his family in the park, into the woods, to some + German garden, where he can hear the music of Wagner, or even the waltzes + of Strauss, or to take a boat and go down to the shore of the sea. I think + than in summer a few waves of the ocean are far more refreshing then all + the orthodox sermons of the world. + </p> + <p> + As a matter of fact, I believe the preachers leave the city in the summer + and let the Devil do his worst. Whether it is believed that the Devil has + less power in warm weather, I do not know. But I do know that, as the + mercury rises, the anxiety about souls decreases, and the hotter New York + becomes, the cooler hell seems to be. + </p> + <p> + I want the workingman, no matter what he works at—whether at + doctoring people, or trying law suits, or running for office—to have + a real good time on Sunday. He, of course, must be careful not to + interfere with the rights of others. He ought not to play draw-poker on + the steps of a church; neither should he stone a Chinese funeral, nor go + to any excesses; but all the week long he should have it in his mind: Next + Sunday I am going to have a good time. My wife and I and the children are + going to have a happy time. I am going out with the girl I like; or my + young man is going to take me to the picnic. And this thought, and this + hope, of having a good time on Sunday—of seeing some great pictures + at the Metropolitan Art Gallery—together with a good many bad ones— + will make work easy and lighten the burden on the shoulders of toil. + </p> + <p> + I take a great interest, too, in the working women—particularly in + the working woman. I think that every workingman should see to it that + every working woman has a good time on Sunday. I am no preacher. All I + want is that everybody should enjoy himself in a way that he will not and + does not interfere with the enjoyment of others. + </p> + <p> + It will not do to say that we cannot trust the people. Our Government is + based upon the idea that the people can be trusted, and those who say that + the workingmen cannot be trusted, do not believe in Republican or + Democratic institutions. For one, I am perfectly willing to trust the + working people of the country. I do, every day. I trust the engineers on + the cars and steamers. I trust the builders of houses. I trust all + laboring men every day of my life, and if the laboring people of the + country were not trustworthy—if they were malicious or dishonest—life + would not be worth living. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Journal</i>, New York, June 6, 1890. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0086" id="link0086"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE WEST AND SOUTH. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think the South will ever equal or surpass the + West in point of prosperity? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not. The West has better soil and more of the elements + of wealth. It is not liable to yellow fever; its rivers have better banks; + the people have more thrift, more enterprise, more political hospitality; + education is more general; the people are more inventive; better traders, + and besides all this, there is no race problem. The Southern people are + what their surroundings made them, and the influence of slavery has not + yet died out. In my judgment the climate of the West is superior to that + of the South. The West has good, cold winters, and they make people a + little more frugal, prudent and industrious. Winters make good homes, + cheerful firesides, and, after all, civilization commences at the + hearthstone. The South is growing, and will continue to grow, but it will + never equal the West. The West is destined to dominate the Republic. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you consider the new ballot-law adapted to the needs + of our system of elections? If not, in what particulars does it require + amendment? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Personally I like the brave and open way. The secret ballot + lacks courage. I want people to know just how I vote. The old <i>viva voce</i> + way was manly and looked well. Every American should be taught that he + votes as a sovereign—an emperor—and he should exercise the + right in a kingly way. But if we must have the secret ballot, then let it + be secret indeed, and let the crowd stand back while the king votes. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the service pension movement? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I see that there is a great deal of talk here in Indiana + about this service pension movement. It has always seemed to me that the + pension fund has been frittered away. Of what use is it to give a man two + or three dollars a month? If a man is rich why should he have any pension? + I think it would be better to give pensions only to the needy, and then + give them enough to support them. If the man was in the army a day or a + month, and was uninjured, and can make his own living, or has enough, why + should he have a pension? I believe in giving to the wounded and disabled + and poor, with a liberal hand, but not to the rich. I know that the nation + could not pay the men who fought and suffered. There is not money enough + in the world to pay the heroes for what they did and endured —but + there is money enough to keep every wounded and diseased soldier from + want. There is money enough to fill the lives of those who gave limbs or + health for the sake of the Republic, with comfort and happiness. I would + also like to see the poor soldier taken care of whether he was wounded or + not, but I see no propriety in giving to those who do not need. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Journal</i>, Indianapolis, Indiana, June 21, 1890. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0087" id="link0087"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE WESTMINSTER CREED AND OTHER SUBJECTS. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the revision of the Westminster + creed? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think that the intelligence and morality of the age + demand the revision. The Westminster creed is infamous. It makes God an + infinite monster, and men the most miserable of beings. That creed has + made millions insane. It has furrowed countless cheeks with tears. Under + its influence the sentiments and sympathies of the heart have withered. + This creed was written by the worst of men. The civilized Presbyterians do + not believe it. The intelligent clergyman will not preach it, and all good + men who understand it, hold it in abhorrence. But the fact is that it is + just as good as the creed of any orthodox church. All these creeds must be + revised. Young America will not be consoled by the doctrine of eternal + pain. Yes, the creeds must be revised or the churches will be closed. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the influence of the press on + religion? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. If you mean on orthodox religion, then I say the press is + helping to destroy it. Just to the extent that the press is intelligent + and fearless, it is and must be the enemy of superstition. Every fact in + the universe is the enemy of every falsehood. The press furnishes food + for, and excites thought. This tends to the destruction of the miraculous + and absurd. I regard the press as the friend of progress and consequently + the foe of orthodox religion. The old dogmas do not make the people happy. + What is called religion is full of fear and grief. The clergy are always + talking about dying, about the grave and eternal pain. They do not add to + the sunshine of life. If they could have their way all the birds would + stop singing, the flowers would lose their color and perfume, and all the + owls would sit on dead trees and hoot, "Broad is the road that leads to + death." + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. If you should write your last sentence on religious + topics what would be your closing? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I now in the presence of death affirm and reaffirm the + truth of all that I have said against the superstitions of the world. I + would say at least that much on the subject with my last breath. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What, in your opinion, will be Browning's position in the + literature of the future? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Lower than at present. Mrs. Browning was far greater than + her husband. He never wrote anything comparable to "Mother and Poet." + Browning lacked form, and that is as great a lack in poetry as it is in + sculpture. He was the author of some great lines, some great thoughts, but + he was obscure, uneven and was always mixing the poetic with the + commonplace. To me he cannot be compared with Shelley or Keats, or with + our own Walt Whitman. Of course poetry cannot be very well discussed. Each + man knows what he likes, what touches his heart and what words burst into + blossom, but he cannot judge for others. After one has read Shakespeare, + Burns and Byron, and Shelley and Keats; after he has read the "Sonnets" + and the "Daisy" and the "Prisoner of Chillon" and the "Skylark" and the + "Ode to the Grecian Urn"—the "Flight of the Duchess" seems a little + weak. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Post-Express</i>, Rochester, New York, June 23, 1890. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0088" id="link0088"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + SHAKESPEARE AND BACON. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of Ignatius Donnelly as a literary + man irrespective of his Baconian theory? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I know that Mr. Donnelly enjoys the reputation of being a + man of decided ability and that he is regarded by many as a great orator. + He is known to me through his Baconian theory, and in that of course I + have no confidence. It is nearly as ingenious as absurd. He has spent + great time, and has devoted much curious learning to the subject, and has + at last succeeded in convincing himself that Shakespeare claimed that + which he did not write, and that Bacon wrote that which he did not claim. + But to me the theory is without the slightest foundation. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Mr. Donnelly asks: "Can you imagine the author of such + grand productions retiring to that mud house in Stratford to live without + a single copy of the quarto that has made his name famous?" What do you + say? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes; I can. Shakespeare died in 1616, and the quarto was + published in 1623, seven years after he was dead. Under these + circumstances I think Shakespeare ought to be excused, even by those who + attack him with the greatest bitterness, for not having a copy of the + book. There is, however, another side to his. Bacon did not die until long + after the quarto was published. Did he have a copy? Did he mention the + copy in his will? Did he ever mention the quarto in any letter, essay, or + in any way? He left a library, was there a copy of the plays in it? Has + there ever been found a line from any play or sonnet in his handwriting? + Bacon left his writings, his papers, all in perfect order, but no plays, + no sonnets, said nothing about plays—claimed nothing on their + behalf. This is the other side. Now, there is still another thing. The + edition of 1623 was published by Shakespeare's friends, Heminge and + Condell. They knew him—had been with him for years, and they + collected most of his plays and put them in book form. + </p> + <p> + Ben Jonson wrote a preface, in which he placed Shakespeare above all the + other poets—declared that he was for all time. + </p> + <p> + The edition of 1623 was gotten up by actors, by the friends and associates + of Shakespeare, vouched for by dramatic writers—by those who knew + him. This is enough. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How do you explain the figure: "His soul, like Mazeppa, + was lashed naked to the wild horse of every fear and love and hate"? Mr. + Donnelly does not understand you. + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It hardly seems necessary to explain a thing as simple and + plain as that. Men are carried away by some fierce passion— carried + away in spite of themselves as Mazeppa was carried by the wild horse to + which he was lashed. Whether the comparison is good or bad it is at least + plain. Nothing could tempt me to call Mr. Donnelly's veracity in question. + He says that he does not understand the sentence and I most cheerfully + admit that he tells the exact truth. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Mr. Donnelly says that you said: "Where there is genius, + education seems almost unnecessary," and he denounces your doctrine as the + most abominable doctrine ever taught. What have you to say to that? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In the first place, I never made the remark. In the next + place, it may be well enough to ask what education is. Much is taught in + colleges that is of no earthly use; much is taught that is hurtful. There + are thousands of educated men who never graduated from any college or + university. Every observant, thoughtful man is educating himself as long + as he lives. Men are better then books. Observation is a great teacher. A + man of talent learns slowly. He does not readily see the necessary + relation that one fact bears to another. A man of genius, learning one + fact, instantly sees hundreds of others. It is not necessary for such a + man to attend college. The world is his university. Every man he meets is + a book—every woman a volume every fact a torch—and so without + the aid of the so-called schools he rises to the very top. Shakespeare was + such a man. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Mr. Donnelly says that: "The biggest myth ever on earth + was Shakespeare, and that if Francis Bacon had said to the people, I, + Francis Bacon, a gentleman of gentlemen, have been taking in secret my + share of the coppers and shillings taken at the door of those low + playhouses, he would have been ruined. If he had put the plays forth + simply as poetry it would have ruined his legal reputation." What do you + think of this? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I hardly think that Shakespeare was a myth. He was + certainly born, married, lived in London, belonged to a company of actors; + went back to Stratford, where he had a family, and died. All these things + do not as a rule happen to myths. In addition to this, those who knew him + believed him to be the author of the plays. Bacon's friends never + suspected him. I do not think it would have hurt Bacon to have admitted + that he wrote "Lear" and "Othello," and that he was getting "coppers and + shillings" to which he was justly entitled. Certainly not as much as for + him to have written this, which if fact, though not in exact form, he did + write: "I, Francis Bacon, a gentleman of gentlemen, have been taking + coppers and shillings to which I was not entitled—but which I + received as bribes while sitting as a judge." He has been excused for two + reasons. First, because his salary was small, and, second, because it was + the custom for judges to receive presents. + </p> + <p> + Bacon was a lawyer. He was charged with corruption—with having taken + bribes, with having sold his decisions. He knew what the custom was and + knew how small his salary was. But he did not plead the custom in his + defense. He did not mention the smallness of the salary. He confessed that + he was guilty—as charged. His confession was deemed too general and + he was called upon by the Lords to make a specific confession. This he + did. He specified the cases in which he had received the money and told + how much, and begged for mercy. He did not make his confession, as Mr. + Donnelly is reported to have said, to get his fine remitted. The + confession was made before the fine was imposed. + </p> + <p> + Neither do I think that the theatre in which the plays of Shakespeare were + represented could or should be called a "low play house." The fact that + "Othello," "Lear," "Hamlet," "Julius Cæsar," and the other great + dramas were first played in that playhouse made it the greatest building + in the world. The gods themselves should have occupied seats in that + theatre, where for the first time the greatest productions of the human + mind were put upon the stage. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Tribune</i>, Minneapolis, Minn., May 31, 1891. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0089" id="link0089"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + GROWING OLD GRACEFULLY, AND PRESBYTERIANISM. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How have you acquired the art of growing old gracefully? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It is very hard to live a great while without getting old, + and it is hardly worth while to die just to keep young. It is claimed that + people with certain incomes live longer than those who have to earn their + bread. But the income people have a stupid kind of life, and though they + may hang on a good many years, they can hardly be said to do much real + living. The best you can say is, not that they lived so many years, but + that it took them so many years to die. Some people imagine that regular + habits prolong life, but that depends somewhat on the habits. Only the + other day I read an article written by a physician, in which regular + habits —good ones, were declared to be quite dangerous. + </p> + <p> + Where life is perfectly regular, all the wear and tear comes on the same + nerves—every blow falls on the same place. Variety, even in a bad + direction, is a great relief. But living long has nothing to do with + getting old gracefully. Good nature is a great enemy of wrinkles, and + cheerfulness helps the complexion. If we could only keep from being + annoyed at little things, it would add to the luxury of living. Great + sorrows are few, and after all do not affect us as much as the many + irritating, almost nothings that attack from every side. The traveler is + bothered more with dust than mountains. It is a great thing to have an + object in life— something to work for and think for. If a man thinks + only about himself, his own comfort, his own importance, he will not grow + old gracefully. More and more his spirit, small and mean, will leave its + impress on his face, and especially in his eyes. You look at him and feel + that there is no jewel in the casket; that a shriveled soul is living in a + tumble-down house. + </p> + <p> + The body gets its grace from the mind. I suppose that we are all more or + less responsible for our looks. Perhaps the thinker of great thoughts, the + doer of noble deeds, moulds his features in harmony with his life. + </p> + <p> + Probably the best medicine, the greatest beautifier in the world, is to + make somebody else happy. I have noticed that good mothers have faces as + serene as a cloudless day in June, and the older the serener. It is a + great thing to know the relative importance of things, and those who do, + get the most out of life. Those who take an interest in what they see, and + keep their minds busy are always young. + </p> + <p> + The other day I met a blacksmith who has given much attention to geology + and fossil remains. He told me how happy he was in his excursions. He was + nearly seventy years old, and yet he had the enthusiasm of a boy. He said + he had some very fine specimens, "but," said he, "nearly every night I + dream of finding perfect ones." + </p> + <p> + That man will keep young as long as he lives. As long as a man lives he + should study. Death alone has the right to dismiss the school. No man can + get too much knowledge. In that, he can have all the avarice he wants, but + he can get too much property. If the business men would stop when they got + enough, they might have a chance to grow old gracefully. But the most of + them go on and on, until, like the old stage horse, stiff and lame, they + drop dead in the road. The intelligent, the kind, the reasonably + contented, the courageous, the self-poised, grow old gracefully. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are not the restraints to free religious thought being + worn away, as the world grows older, and will not the recent attacks of + the religious press and pulpit upon the unorthodoxy of Dr. Briggs, Rev. R. + Heber Newton and the prospective Episcopal bishop of Massachusetts, Dr. + Phillips Brooks, and others, have a tendency still further to extend this + freedom? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course the world is growing somewhat wiser—getting + more sense day by day. It is amazing to me that any human being or beings + ever wrote the Presbyterian creed. Nothing can be more absurd—more + barbaric than that creed. It makes man the sport of an infinite monster, + and yet good people, men and women of ability, who have gained eminence in + almost every department of human effort, stand by this creed as if it were + filled with wisdom and goodness. They really think that a good God damns + his poor ignorant children just for his own glory, and that he sends + people to perdition, not for any evil in them, but to the praise of his + glorious justice. Dr. Briggs has been wicked enough to doubt this phase of + God's goodness, and Dr. Bridgman was heartless enough to drop a tear in + hell. Of course they have no idea of what justice really is. + </p> + <p> + The Presbyterian General Assembly that has just adjourned stood by + Calvinism. The "Five Points" are as sharp as ever. The members of that + assembly—most of them—find all their happiness in the "creed." + They need no other amusement. If they feel blue they read about total + depravity—and cheer up. In moments of great sorrow they think of the + tale of non-elect infants, and their hearts overflow with a kind of joy. + </p> + <p> + They cannot imagine why people wish to attend the theatre when they can + read the "Confession of Faith," or why they should feel like dancing after + they do read it. + </p> + <p> + It is very sad to think of the young men and women who have been eternally + ruined by witnessing the plays of Shakespeare, and it is also sad to think + of the young people, foolish enough to be happy, keeping time to the pulse + of music, waltzing to hell in loving pairs—all for the glory of God, + and to the praise of his glorious justice. I think, too, of the thousands + of men and women who, while listening to the music of Wagner, have + absolutely forgotten the Presbyterian creed, and who for a little while + have been as happy as if the creed had never been written. Tear down the + theatres, burn the opera houses, break all musical instruments, and then + let us go to church. + </p> + <p> + I am not at all surprised that the General Assembly took up this + progressive euchre matter. The word "progressive" is always obnoxious to + the ministers. Euchre under another name might go. Of course, progressive + euchre is a kind of gambling. I knew a young man, or rather heard of him, + who won at progressive euchre a silver spoon. At first this looks like + nothing, almost innocent, and yet that spoon, gotten for nothing, sowed + the seed of gambling in that young man's brain. He became infatuated with + euchre, then with cards in general, then with draw-poker in particular,—then + into Wall Street. He is now a total wreck, and has the impudence to say + that is was all "pre-ordained." Think of the thousands and millions that + are being demoralized by games of chance, by marbles —when they play + for keeps—by billiards and croquet, by fox and geese, authors, + halma, tiddledywinks and pigs in clover. In all these miserable games, is + the infamous element of chance—the raw material of gambling. + Probably none of these games could be played exclusively for the glory of + God. I agree with the Presbyterian General Assembly, if the creed is true, + why should anyone try to amuse himself? If there is a hell, and all of us + are going there, there should never be another smile on the human face. We + should spend our days in sighs, our nights in tears. The world should go + insane. We find strange combinations—good men with bad creeds, and + bad men with good ones—and so the great world stumbles along. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Blade</i>, Toledo, Ohio, June 4, 1891. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0090" id="link0090"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + CREEDS. + </h2> + <p> + There is a natural desire on the part of every intelligent human being to + harmonize his information—to make his theories agree—in other + words, to make what he knows, or thinks he knows, in one department, agree + and harmonize with what he knows, or thinks he knows, in every other + department of human knowledge. + </p> + <p> + The human race has not advanced in line, neither has it advanced in all + departments with the same rapidity. It is with the race as it is with an + individual. A man may turn his entire attention to some one subject—as, + for instance, to geology—and neglect other sciences. He may be a + good geologist, but an exceedingly poor astronomer; or he may know nothing + of politics or of political economy. So he may be a successful statesman + and know nothing of theology. But if a man, successful in one direction, + takes up some other question, he is bound to use the knowledge he has on + one subject as a kind of standard to measure what he is told on some other + subject. If he is a chemist, it will be natural for him, when studying + some other question, to use what he knows in chemistry; that is to say, he + will expect to find cause and effect everywhere —succession and + resemblance. He will say: It must be in all other sciences as in chemistry—there + must be no chance. The elements have no caprice. Iron is always the same. + Gold does not change. Prussic acid is always poison—it has no + freaks. So he will reason as to all facts in nature. He will be a believer + in the atomic integrity of all matter, in the persistence of gravitation. + Being so trained, and so convinced, his tendency will be to weigh what is + called new information in the same scales that he has been using. + </p> + <p> + Now, for the application of this. Progress in religion is the slowest, + because man is kept back by sentimentality, by the efforts of parents, by + old associations. A thousand unseen tendrils are twining about him that he + must necessarily break if he advances. In other departments of knowledge + inducements are held out and rewards are promised to the one who does + succeed—to the one who really does advance—to the one who + discovers new facts. But in religion, instead of rewards being promised, + threats are made. The man is told that he must not advance; that if he + takes a step forward, it is at the peril of his soul; that if he thinks + and investigates, he is in danger of exciting the wrath of God. + Consequently religion has been of the slowest growth. Now, in most + departments of knowledge, man has advanced; and coming back to the + original statement—a desire to harmonize all that we know—there + is a growing desire on the part of intelligent men to have a religion fit + to keep company with the other sciences. + </p> + <p> + Our creeds were made in times of ignorance. They suited very well a flat + world, and a God who lived in the sky just above us and who used the + lightning to destroy his enemies. This God was regarded much as a savage + regarded the head of his tribe—as one having the right to reward and + punish. And this God, being much greater than a chief of the tribe, could + give greater rewards and inflict greater punishments. They knew that the + ordinary chief, or the ordinary king, punished the slightest offence with + death. They also knew that these chiefs and kings tortured their victims + as long as the victims could bear the torture. So when they described + their God, they gave this God power to keep the tortured victim alive + forever —because they knew that the earthly chief, or the earthly + king, would prolong the life of the tortured for the sake of increasing + the agonies of the victim. In those savage days they regarded punishment + as the only means of protecting society. In consequence of this they built + heaven and hell on an earthly plan, and they put God—that is to say + the chief, that is to say the king—on a throne like an earthly king. + </p> + <p> + Of course, these views were all ignorant and barbaric; but in that blessed + day their geology and astronomy were on a par with their theology. There + was a harmony in all departments of knowledge, or rather of ignorance. + Since that time there has been a great advance made in the idea of + government—the old idea being that the right to govern came from God + to the king, and from the king to his people. Now intelligent people + believe that the source of authority has been changed, and that all just + powers of government are derived from the consent of the governed. So + there has been a great advance in the philosophy of punishment—in + the treatment of criminals. So, too, in all the sciences. The earth is no + longer flat; heaven is not immediately above us; the universe has been + infinitely enlarged, and we have at last found that our earth is but a + grain of sand, a speck on the great shore of the infinite. Consequently + there is a discrepancy, a discord, a contradiction between our theology + and the other sciences. Men of intelligence feel this. Dr. Briggs + concluded that a perfectly good and intelligent God could not have created + billions of sentient beings, knowing that they were to be eternally + miserable. No man could do such a thing, had he the power, without being + infinitely malicious. Dr. Briggs began to have a little hope for the human + race—began to think that maybe God is better than the creed + describes him. + </p> + <p> + And right here it may be well enough to remark that no one has ever been + declared a heretic for thinking God bad. Heresy has consisted in thinking + God better than the church said he was. The man who said God will damn + nearly everybody, was orthodox. The man who said God will save everybody, + was denounced as a blaspheming wretch, as one who assailed and maligned + the character of God. I can remember when the Universalists were denounced + as vehemently and maliciously as the Atheists are to-day. + </p> + <p> + Now, Dr. Briggs is undoubtedly an intelligent man. He knows that nobody on + earth knows who wrote the five books of Moses. He knows that they were not + written until hundreds of years after Moses was dead. He knows that two or + more persons were the authors of Isaiah. He knows that David did not write + to exceed three or four of the Psalms. He knows that the Book of Job is + not a Jewish book. He knows that the Songs of Solomon were not written by + Solomon. He knows that the Book of Ecclesiastes was written by a + Freethinker. He also knows that there is not in existence to-day—so + far as anybody knows—any of the manuscripts of the Old or New + Testaments. + </p> + <p> + So about the New Testament, Dr. Briggs knows that nobody lives who has + ever seen an original manuscript, or who ever saw anybody that did see + one, or that claims to have seen one. He knows that nobody knows who wrote + Matthew or Mark or Luke or John. He knows that John did not write John, + and that that gospel was not written until long after John was dead. He + knows that no one knows who wrote the Hebrews. He also knows that the Book + of Revelation is an insane production. Dr. Briggs also knows the way in + which these books came to be canonical, and he knows that the way was no + more binding than a resolution passed by a political convention. He also + knows that many books were left out that had for centuries equal authority + with those that were put in. He also knows that many passages— and + the very passages upon which many churches are founded—are + interpolations. He knows that the last chapter of Mark, beginning with the + sixteenth verse to the end, is an interpolation; and he also knows that + neither Matthew nor Mark nor Luke ever said one word about the necessity + of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, or of believing anything—not + one word about believing the Bible or joining the church, or doing any + particular thing in the way of ceremony to insure salvation. He knows that + according to Matthew, God agreed to forgive us when we would forgive + others. Consequently he knows that there is not one particle of what is + called modern theology in Matthew, Mark, or Luke. He knows that the + trouble commenced in John, and that John was not written until probably + one hundred and fifty years—possibly two hundred years—after + Christ was dead. So he also knows that the sin against the Holy Ghost is + an interpolation; that "I came not to bring peace but a sword," if not an + interpolation, is an absolute contradiction. So, too, he knows that the + promise to forgive in heaven what the disciples should forgive on earth, + is an interpolation; and that if its not an interpolation, it is without + the slightest sense in fact. + </p> + <p> + Knowing these things, and knowing, in addition to what I have stated, that + there are thirty thousand or forty thousand mistakes in the Old Testament, + that there are a great many contradictions and absurdities, than many of + the laws are cruel and infamous, and could have been made only by a + barbarous people, Dr. Briggs has concluded that, after all, the torch that + sheds the serenest and divinest light is the human reason, and that we + must investigate the Bible as we do other books. At least, I suppose he + has reached some such conclusion. He may imagine that the pure gold of + inspiration still runs through the quartz and porphyry of ignorance and + mistake, and that all we have to do is to extract the shining metal by + some process that may be called theological smelting; and if so I have no + fault to find. Dr. Briggs has taken a step in advance—that is to + say, the tree is growing, and when the tree grows, the bark splits; when + the new leaves come the old leaves are rotting on the ground. + </p> + <p> + The Presbyterian creed is a very bad creed. It has been the + stumbling-block, not only of the head, but of the heart for many + generations. I do not know that it is, in fact, worse than any other + orthodox creed; but the bad features are stated with an explicitness and + emphasized with a candor that render the creed absolutely appalling. It is + amazing to me that any man ever wrote it, or that any set of men ever + produced it. It is more amazing to me that any human being ever believed + in it. It is still more amazing that any human being ever thought it + wicked not to believe it. It is more amazing still, than all the others + combined, that any human being ever wanted it to be true. + </p> + <p> + This creed is a relic of the Middle Ages. It has in it the malice, the + malicious logic, the total depravity, the utter heartlessness of John + Calvin, and it gives me great pleasure to say that no Presbyterian was + ever as bad as his creed. And here let me say, as I have said many times, + that I do not hate Presbyterians—because among them I count some of + my best friends—but I hate Presbyterianism. And I cannot illustrate + this any better than by saying, I do not hate a man because he has the + rheumatism, but I hate the rheumatism because it has a man. + </p> + <p> + The Presbyterian Church is growing, and is growing because, as I said at + first, there is a universal tendency in the mind of man to harmonize all + that he knows or thinks he knows. This growth may be delayed. The buds of + heresy may be kept back by the north wind of Princeton and by the early + frost called Patton. In spite of these souvenirs of the Dark Ages, the + church must continue to grow. The theologians who regard theology as + something higher than a trade, tend toward Liberalism. Those who regard + preaching as a business, and the inculcation of sentiment as a trade, will + stand by the lowest possible views. They will cling to the letter and + throw away the spirit. They prefer the dead limb to a new bud or to a new + leaf. They want no more sap. They delight in the dead tree, in its + unbending nature, and they mistake the stiffness of death for the vigor + and resistance of life. + </p> + <p> + Now, as with Dr. Briggs, so with Dr. Bridgman, although it seems to me + that he has simply jumped from the frying-pan into the fire; and why he + should prefer the Episcopal creed to the Baptist, is more than I can + imagine. The Episcopal creed is, in fact, just as bad as the Presbyterian. + It calmly and with unruffled brow, utters the sentence of eternal + punishment on the majority of the human race, and the Episcopalian expects + to be happy in heaven, with his son or daughter or his mother or wife in + hell. + </p> + <p> + Dr. Bridgman will find himself exactly in the position of the Rev. Mr. + Newton, provided he expresses his thought. But I account for the Bridgmans + and for the Newtons by the fact that there is still sympathy in the human + heart, and that there is still intelligence in the human brain. For my + part, I am glad to see this growth in the orthodox churches, and the + quicker they revise their creeds the better. + </p> + <p> + I oppose nothing that is good in any creed—I attack only that which + is ignorant, cruel and absurd, and I make the attack in the interest of + human liberty, and for the sake of human happiness. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the action of the Presbyterian + General Assembly at Detroit, and what effect do you think it will have on + religious growth? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. That General Assembly was controlled by the orthodox within + the church, by the strict constructionists and by the Calvinists; by + gentlemen who not only believe the creed, not only believe that a vast + majority of people are going to hell, but are really glad of it; by + gentlemen who, when they feel a little blue, read about total depravity to + cheer up, and when they think of the mercy of God as exhibited in their + salvation, and the justice of God as illustrated by the damnation of + others, their hearts burst into a kind of efflorescence of joy. + </p> + <p> + These gentlemen are opposed to all kinds of amusements except reading the + Bible, the Confession of Faith, and the creed, and listening to + Presbyterian sermons and prayers. All these things they regard as the food + of cheerfulness. They warn the elect against theatres and operas, dancing + and games of chance. + </p> + <p> + Well, if their doctrine is true, there ought to be no theatres, except + exhibitions of hell; there ought to be no operas, except where the music + is a succession of wails for the misfortunes of man. If their doctrine is + true, I do not see how any human being could ever smile again—I do + not see how a mother could welcome her babe; everything in nature would + become hateful; flowers and sunshine would simply tell us of our fate. + </p> + <p> + My doctrine is exactly the opposite of this. Let us enjoy ourselves every + moment that we can. The love of the dramatic is universal. The stage has + not simply amused, but it has elevated mankind. The greatest genius of our + world poured the treasures of his soul into the drama. I do not believe + that any girl can be corrupted, or that any man can be injured, by + becoming acquainted with Isabella or Miranda or Juliet or Imogen, or any + of the great heroines of Shakespeare. + </p> + <p> + So I regard the opera as one of the great civilizers. No one can listen to + the symphonies of Beethoven, or the music of Schubert, without receiving a + benefit. And no one can hear the operas of Wagner without feeling that he + has been ennobled and refined. + </p> + <p> + Why is it the Presbyterians are so opposed to music in the world, and yet + expect to have so much in heaven? Is not music just as demoralizing in the + sky as on the earth, and does anybody believe that Abraham or Isaac or + Jacob, ever played any music comparable to Wagner? + </p> + <p> + Why should we postpone our joy to another world? Thousands of people take + great pleasure in dancing, and I say let them dance. Dancing is better + than weeping and wailing over a theology born of ignorance and + superstition. + </p> + <p> + And so with games of chance. There is a certain pleasure in playing games, + and the pleasure is of the most innocent character. Let all these games be + played at home and children will not prefer the saloon to the society of + their parents. I believe in cards and billiards, and would believe in + progressive euchre, were it more of a game—the great objection to it + is its lack of complexity. My idea is to get what little happiness you can + out of this life, and to enjoy all sunshine that breaks through the clouds + of misfortune. Life is poor enough at best. No one should fail to pick up + every jewel of joy that can be found in his path. Every one should be as + happy as he can, provided he is not happy at the expense of another, and + no person rightly constituted can be happy at the expense of another. + </p> + <p> + So let us get all we can of good between the cradle and the grave; all + that we can of the truly dramatic; all that we can of music; all that we + can of art; all that we can of enjoyment; and if, when death comes, that + is the end, we have at least made the best of this life; and if there be + another life, let us make the best of that. + </p> + <p> + I am doing what little I can to hasten the coming of the day when the + human race will enjoy liberty—not simply of body, but liberty of + mind. And by liberty of mind I mean freedom from superstition, and added + to that, the intelligence to find out the conditions of happiness; and + added to that, the wisdom to live in accordance with those conditions. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Morning Advertiser</i>, New York, June 12, 1891. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0091" id="link0091"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE TENDENCY OF MODERN THOUGHT. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you regard the Briggs trial as any evidence of the + growth of Liberalism in the church itself? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. When men get together, and make what they call a creed, the + supposition is that they then say as nearly as possible what they mean and + what they believe. A written creed, of necessity, remains substantially + the same. In a few years this creed ceases to give exactly the new shade + of thought. Then begin two processes, one of destruction and the other of + preservation. In every church, as in every party, and as you may say in + every corporation, there are two wings—one progressive, the other + conservative. In the church there will be a few, and they will represent + the real intelligence of the church, who become dissatisfied with the + creed, and who at first satisfy themselves by giving new meanings to old + words. On the other hand, the conservative party appeals to emotions, to + memories, and to the experiences of their fellow- members, for the purpose + of upholding the old dogmas and the old ideas; so that each creed is like + a crumbling castle. The conservatives plant ivy and other vines, hoping + that their leaves will hide the cracks and erosions of time; but the + thoughtful see beyond these leaves and are satisfied that the structure + itself is in the process of decay, and that no amount of ivy can restore + the crumbling stones. + </p> + <p> + The old Presbyterian creed, when it was first formulated, satisfied a + certain religious intellect. At that time people were not very merciful. + They had no clear conceptions of justice. Their lives were for the most + part hard; most of them suffered the pains and pangs of poverty; nearly + all lived in tyrannical governments and were the sport of nobles and + kings. Their idea of God was born of their surroundings. God, to them, was + an infinite king who delighted in exhibitions of power. At any rate, their + minds were so constructed that they conceived of an infinite being who, + billions of years before the world was, made up his mind as to whom he + would save and whom he would damn. He not only made up his mind as to the + number he would save, and the number that should be lost, but he saved and + damned without the slightest reference to the character of the individual. + They believed then, and some pretend to believe still, that God damns a + man not because he is bad, and that he saves a man not because he is good, + but simply for the purpose of self-glorification as an exhibition of his + eternal justice. It would be impossible to conceive of any creed more + horrible than that of the Presbyterians. Although I admit—and I not + only admit but I assert—that the creeds of all orthodox Christians + are substantially the same, the Presbyterian creed says plainly what it + means. There is no hesitation, no evasion. The horrible truth, so-called, + is stated in the clearest possible language. One would think after reading + this creed, that the men who wrote it not only believed it, but were + really glad it was true. + </p> + <p> + Ideas of justice, of the use of power, of the use of mercy, have greatly + changed in the last century. We are beginning dimly to see that each man + is the result of an infinite number of conditions, of an infinite number + of facts, most of which existed before he was born. We are beginning dimly + to see that while reason is a pilot, each soul navigates the mysterious + sea filled with tides and unknown currents set in motion by ancestors long + since dust. We are beginning to see that defects of mind are transmitted + precisely the same as defects of body, and in my judgment the time is + coming when we shall not more think of punishing a man for larceny than + for having the consumption. We shall know that the thief is a necessary + and natural result of conditions, preparing, you may say, the field of the + world for the growth of man. We shall no longer depend upon accident and + ignorance and providence. We shall depend upon intelligence and science. + </p> + <p> + The Presbyterian creed is no longer in harmony with the average sense of + man. It shocks the average mind. It seems too monstrous to be true; too + horrible to find a lodgment in the mind of the civilized man. The + Presbyterian minister who thinks, is giving new meanings to the old words. + The Presbyterian minister who feels, also gives new meanings to the old + words. Only those who neither think nor feel remain orthodox. + </p> + <p> + For many years the Christian world has been engaged in examining the + religions of other peoples, and the Christian scholars have had but little + trouble in demonstrating the origin of Mohammedanism and Buddhism and all + other isms except ours. After having examined other religions in the light + of science, it occurred to some of our theologians to examine their own + doctrine in the same way, and the result has been exactly the same in both + cases. Dr. Briggs, as I believe, is a man of education. He is undoubtedly + familiar with other religions, and has, to some extent at least, made + himself familiar with the sacred books of other people. Dr. Briggs knows + that no human being knows who wrote a line of the Old Testament. He knows + as well as he can know anything, for instance, that Moses never wrote one + word of the books attributed to him. He knows that the book of Genesis was + made by putting two or three stories together. He also knows that it is + not the oldest story, but was borrowed. He knows that in this book of + Genesis there is not one word adapted to make a human being better, or to + shed the slightest light on human conduct. He knows, if he knows anything, + that the Mosaic Code, so-called, was, and is, exceedingly barbarous and + not adapted to do justice between man and man, or between nation and + nation. He knows that the Jewish people pursued a course adapted to + destroy themselves; that they refused to make friends with their + neighbors; that they had not the slightest idea of the rights of other + people; that they really supposed that the earth was theirs, and that + their God was the greatest God in the heavens. He also knows that there + are many thousands of mistakes in the Old Testament as translated. He + knows that the book of Isaiah is made up of several books. He knows the + same thing in regard to the New Testament. He also knows that there were + many other books that were once considered sacred that have been thrown + away, and that nobody knows who wrote a solitary line of the New + Testament. + </p> + <p> + Besides all this, Dr. Briggs knows that the Old and New Testaments are + filled with interpolations, and he knows that the passages of Scripture + which have been taken as the foundation stones for creeds, were written + hundreds of years after the death of Christ. He knows well enough that + Christ never said: "I came not to bring peace, but a sword." He knows that + the same being never said: "Thou art Peter, and on this rock will I build + my church." He knows, too, that Christ never said: "Whosoever believes + shall be saved, and whosoever believes not shall be damned." He knows that + these were interpolations. He knows that the sin against the Holy Ghost is + another interpolation. He knows, if he knows anything, that the gospel + according to John was written long after the rest, and that nearly all of + the poison and superstition of orthodoxy is in that book. He knows also, + if he knows anything, that St. Paul never read one of the four gospels. + </p> + <p> + Knowing all these things, Dr. Briggs has had the honesty to say that there + was some trouble about taking the Bible as absolutely inspired in word and + punctuation. I do not think, however, that he can maintain his own + position and still remain a Presbyterian or anything like a Presbyterian. + He takes the ground, I believe, that there are three sources of knowledge: + First, the Bible; second, the church; third, reason. It seems to me that + reason should come first, because if you say the Bible is a source of + authority, why do you say it? Do you say this because your reason is + convinced that it is? If so, then reason is the foundation of that belief. + If, again, you say the church is a source of authority, why do you say so? + It must be because its history convinces your reason that it is. + Consequently, the foundation of that idea is reason. At the bottom of this + pyramid must be reason, and no man is under any obligation to believe that + which is unreasonable to him. He may believe things that he cannot prove, + but he does not believe them because they are unreasonable. He believes + them because he thinks they are not unreasonable, not impossible, not + improbable. But, after all, reason is the crucible in which every fact + must be placed, and the result fixes the belief of the intelligent man. + </p> + <p> + It seems to me that the whole Presbyterian creed must come down together. + It is a scheme based upon certain facts, so-called. There is in it the + fall of man. There is in it the scheme of the atonement, and there is the + idea of hell, eternal punishment, and the idea of heaven, eternal reward; + and yet, according to their creed, hell is not a punishment and heaven is + not a reward. Now, if we do away with the fall of man we do away with the + atonement; then we do away with all supernatural religion. Then we come + back to human reason. Personally, I hope that the Presbyterian Church will + be advanced enough and splendid enough to be honest, and if it is honest, + all the gentlemen who amount to anything, who assist in the trial of Dr. + Briggs, will in all probability agree with him, and he will be acquitted. + But if they throw aside their reason, and remain blindly orthodox, then he + will be convicted. To me it is simply miraculous that any man should + imagine that the Bible is the source of truth. There was a time when all + scientific facts were measured by the Bible. That time is past, and now + the believers in the Bible are doing their best to convince us that it is + in harmony with science. In other words, I have lived to see a change of + standards. When I was a boy, science was measured by the Bible. Now the + Bible is measured by science. This is an immense step. So it is impossible + for me to conceive what kind of a mind a man has, who finds in the history + of the church the fact that it has been a source of truth. How can any one + come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church has been a source of + truth, a source of intellectual light? How can anyone believe that the + church of John Calvin has been a source of truth? If its creed is not + true, if its doctrines are mistakes, if its dogmas are monstrous + delusions, how can it be said to have been a source of truth? + </p> + <p> + My opinion is that Dr. Briggs will not be satisfied with the step he has + taken. He has turned his face a little toward the light. The farther he + walks the harder it will be for him to turn back. The probability is that + the orthodox will turn him out, and the process of driving out men of + thought and men of genius will go on until the remnant will be as orthodox + as they are stupid. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think mankind is drifting away from the + supernatural? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. My belief is that the supernatural has had its day. The + church must either change or abdicate. That is to say, it must keep step + with the progress of the world or be trampled under foot. The church as a + power has ceased to exist. To-day it is a matter of infinite indifference + what the pulpit thinks unless there comes the voice of heresy from the + sacred place. Every orthodox minister in the United States is listened to + just in proportion that he preaches heresy. The real, simon-pure, orthodox + clergyman delivers his homilies to empty benches, and to a few ancient + people who know nothing of the tides and currents of modern thought. The + orthodox pulpit to-day has no thought, and the pews are substantially in + the same condition. There was a time when the curse of the church whitened + the face of a race, but now its anathema is the food of laughter. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What, in your judgment, is to be the outcome of the + present agitation in religious circles? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. My idea is that people more and more are declining the + postponement of happiness to another world. The general tendency is to + enjoy the present. All religions have taught men that the pleasures of + this world are of no account; that they are nothing but husks and rags and + chaff and disappointment; that whoever expects to be happy in this world + makes a mistake; that there is nothing on the earth worth striving for; + that the principal business of mankind should be to get ready to be happy + in another world; that the great occupation is to save your soul, and when + you get it saved, when you are satisfied that you are one of the elect, + then pack up all your worldly things in a very small trunk, take it to the + dock of time that runs out into the ocean of eternity, sit down on it, and + wait for the ship of death. And of course each church is the only one that + sells a through ticket which can be depended on. In all religions, as far + as I know, is an admixture of asceticism, and the greater the quantity, + the more beautiful the religion has been considered, The tendency of the + world to- day is to enjoy life while you have it; it is to get something + out of the present moment; and we have found that there are things worth + living for even in this world. We have found that a man can enjoy himself + with wife and children; that he can be happy in the acquisition of + knowledge; that he can be very happy in assisting others; in helping those + he loves; that there is some joy in poetry, in science and in the + enlargement and development of the mind; that there is some delight in + music and in the drama and in the arts. We are finding, poor as the world + is, that it beats a promise the fulfillment of which is not to take place + until after death. The world is also finding out another thing, and that + is that the gentlemen who preach these various religions, and promise + these rewards, and threaten the punishments, know nothing whatever of the + subject; that they are as blindly ignorant as the people they pretend to + teach, and the people are as blindly ignorant as the animals below them. + We have finally concluded that no human being has the slightest conception + of origin or of destiny, and that this life, not only in its commencement + but in its end, is just as mysterious to-day as it was to the first man + whose eyes greeted the rising sun. We are no nearer the solution of the + problem than those who lived thousands of years before us, and we are just + as near it as those who will live millions of years after we are dead. So + many people having arrived at the conclusion that nobody knows and that + nobody can know, like sensible folks they have made up their minds to + enjoy life. I have often said, and I say again, that I feel as if I were + on a ship not knowing the port from which it sailed, not knowing the + harbor to which it was going, not having a speaking acquaintance with any + of the officers, and I have made up my mind to have as good a time with + the other passengers as possible under the circumstances. If this ship + goes down in mid- sea I have at least made something, and if it reaches a + harbor of perpetual delight I have lost nothing, and I have had a happy + voyage. And I think millions and millions are agreeing with me. + </p> + <p> + Now, understand, I am not finding fault with any of these religions or + with any of these ministers. These religions and these ministers are the + necessary and natural products of sufficient causes. Mankind has traveled + from barbarism to what we now call civilization, by many paths, all of + which under the circumstances, were absolutely necessary; and while I + think the individual does as he must, I think the same of the church, of + the corporation, and of the nation, and not only of the nation, but of the + whole human race. Consequently I have no malice and no prejudices. I have + likes and dislikes. I do not blame a gourd for not being a cantaloupe, but + I like cantaloupes. So I do not blame the old hard-shell Presbyterian for + not being a philosopher, but I like philosophers. So to wind it all up + with regard to the tendency of modern thought, or as to the outcome of + what you call religion, my own belief is that what is known as religion + will disappear from the human mind. And by "religion" I mean the + supernatural. By "religion" I mean living in this world for another, or + living in this world to gratify some supposed being, whom we never saw and + about whom we know nothing, and of whose existence we know nothing. In + other words, religion consists of the duties we are supposed to owe to the + first great cause, and of certain things necessary for us to do here to + insure happiness hereafter. These ideas, in my judgment, are destined to + perish, and men will become convinced that all their duties are within + their reach, and that obligations can exist only between them and other + sentient beings. Another idea, I think, will force itself upon the mind, + which is this: That he who lives the best for this world lives the best + for another if there be one. In other words, humanity will take the place + of what is called "religion." Science will displace superstition, and to + do justice will be the ambition of man. + </p> + <p> + My creed is this: Happiness is the only good. The place to be happy is + here. The time to be happy is now. The way to be happy is to make others + so. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is going to take the place of the pulpit? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have for a long time wondered why somebody didn't start a + church on a sensible basis. My idea is this: There are, of course, in + every community, lawyers, doctors, merchants, and people of all trades and + professions who have not the time during the week to pay any particular + attention to history, poetry, art, or song. Now, it seems to me that it + would be a good thing to have a church and for these men to employ a man + of ability, of talent, to preach to them Sundays, and let this man say to + his congregation: "Now, I am going to preach to you for the first few + Sundays—eight or ten or twenty, we will say—on the art, + poetry, and intellectual achievements of the Greeks." Let this man study + all the week and tell his congregation Sunday what he has ascertained. Let + him give to his people the history of such men as Plato, as Socrates, what + they did; of Aristotle, of his philosophy; of the great Greeks, their + statesmen, their poets, actors, and sculptors, and let him show the debt + that modern civilization owes to these people. Let him, too, give their + religions, their mythology—a mythology that has sown the seed of + beauty in every land. Then let him take up Rome. Let him show what a + wonderful and practical people they were; let him give an idea of their + statesmen, orators, poets, lawyers—because probably the Romans were + the greatest lawyers. And so let him go through with nation after nation, + biography after biography, and at the same time let there be a Sunday + school connected with this church where the children shall be taught + something of importance. For instance, teach them botany, and when a + Sunday is fair, clear, and beautiful, let them go into the fields and + woods with their teachers, and in a little while they will become + acquainted with all kinds of tress and shrubs and flowering plants. They + could also be taught entomology, so that every bug would be interesting, + for they would see the facts in science— something of use to them. I + believe that such a church and such a Sunday school would at the end of a + few years be the most intelligent collection of people in the United + States. To teach the children all of these things and to teach their + parents, too, the outlines of every science, so that every listener would + know something of geology, something of astronomy, so that every member + could tell the manner in which they find the distance of a star— how + much better that would be than the old talk about Abraham, Isaac, and + Jacob, and quotations from Haggai and Zephaniah, and all this eternal talk + about the fall of man and the Garden of Eden, and the flood, and the + atonement, and the wonders of Revelation! Even if the religious scheme be + true, it can be told and understood as well in one day as in a hundred + years. The church says, "He that hath ears to hear let him hear." I say: + "He that hath brains to think, let him think." So, too, the pulpit is + being displaced by what we call places of amusement, which are really + places where men go because they find there is something which satisfies + in a greater or less degree the hunger of the brain. Never before was the + theatre as popular as it is now. Never before was so much money lavished + upon the stage as now. Very few men having their choice would go to hear a + sermon, especially of the orthodox kind, when they had a chance to see a + great actor. + </p> + <p> + The man must be a curious combination who would prefer an orthodox sermon, + we will say, to a concert given by Theodore Thomas. And I may say in + passing that I have great respect for Theodore Thomas, because it was he + who first of all opened to the American people the golden gates of music. + He made the American people acquainted with the great masters, and + especially with Wagner, and it is a debt that we shall always owe him. In + this day the opera—that is to say, music in every form—is + tending to displace the pulpit. The pulpits have to go in partnership with + music now. Hundreds of people have excused themselves to me for going to + church, saying they have splendid music. Long ago the Catholic Church was + forced to go into partnership not only with music, but with painting and + with architecture. The Protestant Church for a long time thought it could + do without these beggarly elements, and the Protestant Church was simply a + dry-goods box with a small steeple on top of it, its walls as bleak and + bare and unpromising as the creed. But even Protestants have been forced + to hire a choir of ungodly people who happen to have beautiful voices, and + they, too, have appealed to the organ. Music is taking the place of creed, + and there is more real devotional feeling summoned from the temple of the + mind by great music than by any sermon ever delivered. Music, of all other + things, gives wings to thought and allows the soul to rise above all the + pains and troubles of this life, and to feel for a moment as if it were + absolutely free, above all clouds, destined to enjoy forever. So, too, + science is beckoning with countless hands. Men of genius are everywhere + beckoning men to discoveries, promising them fortunes compared with which + Aladdin's lamp was weak and poor. All these things take men from the + church; take men from the pulpit. In other words, prosperity is the enemy + of the pulpit. When men enjoy life, when they are prosperous here, they + are in love with the arts, with the sciences, with everything that gives + joy, with everything that promises plenty, and they care nothing about the + prophecies of evil that fall from the solemn faces of the parsons. They + look in other directions. They are not thinking about the end of the + world. They hate the lugubrious, and they enjoy the sunshine of to-day. + And this, in my judgment, is the highest philosophy: First, do not regret + having lost yesterday; second, do not fear that you will lose to-morrow; + third, enjoy to- day. + </p> + <p> + Astrology was displaced by astronomy. Alchemy and the black art gave way + to chemistry. Science is destined to take the place of superstition. In my + judgment, the religion of the future will be Reason. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Tribune</i>, Chicago, Illinois, November, 1891. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0092" id="link0092"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + WOMAN SUFFRAGE, HORSE RACING, AND MONEY. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What are your opinions on the woman's suffrage question? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I claim no right that I am not willing to give to my wife + and daughters, and to the wives and daughters of other men. We shall never + have a generation of great men until we have a generation of great women. + I do not regard ignorance as the foundation of virtue, or uselessness as + one of the requisites of a lady. I am a believer in equal rights. Those + who are amenable to the laws should have a voice in making the laws. In + every department where woman has had an equal opportunity with man, she + has shown that she has equal capacity. + </p> + <p> + George Sand was a great writer, George Eliot one of the greatest, Mrs. + Browning a marvelous poet—and the lyric beauty of her "Mother and + Poet" is greater than anything her husband ever wrote—Harriet + Martineau a wonderful woman, and Ouida is probably the greatest living + novelist, man or woman. Give the women a chance. + </p> + <p> + [The Colonel's recent election as a life member of the Manhattan Athletic + Club, due strangely enough to a speech of his denouncing certain forms of + sport, was referred to, and this led him to express his contempt for + prize-fighting, and then he said on the subject of horse-racing: ] + </p> + <p> + The only objection I have to horse racing is its cruelty. The whip and + spur should be banished from the track. As long as these are used, the + race track will breed a very low and heartless set of men. I hate to see a + brute whip and spur a noble animal. The good people object to racing, + because of the betting, but bad people, like myself, object to the + cruelty. Men are not forced to bet. That is their own business, but the + poor horse, straining every nerve, does not ask for the lash and iron. + Abolish torture on the track and let the best horse win. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the Chilian insult to the United + States flag? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In the first place, I think that our Government was wrong + in taking the part of Balmaceda. In the next place, we made a mistake in + seizing the Itata. America should always side with the right. We should + care nothing for the pretender in power, and Balmaceda was a cruel, + tyrannical scoundrel. We should be with the people everywhere. I do not + blame Chili for feeling a little revengeful. We ought to remember that + Chili is weak, and nations, like individuals, are sensitive in proportion + that they are weak. Let us trust Chili just as we would England. We are + too strong to be unjust. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How do you stand on the money question? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I am with the Republican party on the question of money. I + am for the use of gold and silver both, but I want a dollar's worth of + silver in a silver dollar. I do not believe in light money, or in cheap + money, or in poor money. These are all contradictions in terms. Congress + cannot fix the value of money. The most it can do is to fix its debt + paying power. It is beyond the power of any Congress to fix the purchasing + value of what it may be pleased to call money. Nobody knows, so far as I + know, why people want gold. I do not know why people want silver. I do not + know how gold came to be money; neither do I understand the universal + desire, but it exists, and we take things as we find them. Gold and silver + make up, you may say, the money of the world, and I believe in using the + two metals. I do not believe in depreciating any American product; but as + value cannot be absolutely fixed by law, so far as the purchasing power is + concerned, and as the values of gold and silver vary, neither being stable + any more than the value of wheat or corn is stable, I believe that + legislation should keep pace within a reasonable distance at least, of the + varying values, and that the money should be kept as nearly equal as + possible. Of course, there is one trouble with money to-day, and that is + the use of the word "dollar." It has lost its meaning. So many governments + have adulterated their own coin, and as many have changed weights, that + the word "dollar" has not to-day an absolute, definite, specific meaning. + Like individuals, nations have been dishonest. The only time the papal + power had the right to coin money—I believe it was under Pius IX., + when Antonelli was his minister—the coin of the papacy was so + debased that even orthodox Catholics refused to take it, and it had to be + called in and minted by the French Empire, before even the Italians + recognized it as money. My own opinion is, that either the dollar must be + absolutely defined—it must be the world over so many grains of pure + gold, or so many grains of pure silver—or we must have other + denominations for our money, as for instance, ounces, or parts of ounces, + and the time will come, in my judgment, when there will be a money of the + world, the same everywhere; because each coin will contain upon its face + the certificate of a government that it contains such a weight—so + many grains or so many ounces—of a certain metal. I, for one, want + the money of the United States to be as good as that of any other country. + I want its gold and silver exactly what they purport to be; and I want the + paper issued by the Government to be the same as gold. I want its credit + so perfectly established that it will be taken in every part of the + habitable globe. I am with the Republican party on the question of money, + also on the question of protection, and all I hope is that the people of + this country will have sense enough to defend their own interests. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Inter-Ocean</i>, Chicago, Illinois, October 27, 1891. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0093" id="link0093"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + MISSIONARIES. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of foreign missions? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In the first place, there seems to be a pretty good opening + in this country for missionary work. We have a good many Indians who are + not Methodists. I have never known one to be converted. A good many have + been killed by Christians, but their souls have not been saved. Maybe the + Methodists had better turn their attention to the heathen of our own + country. Then we have a good many Mormons who rely on the truth of the Old + Testament and follow the example of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It seems to + me that the Methodists better convert the Mormons before attacking the + tribes of Central Africa. There is plenty of work to be done right here. A + few good bishops might be employed for a time in converting Dr. Briggs and + Professor Swing, to say nothing of other heretical Presbyterians. + </p> + <p> + There is no need of going to China to convert the Chinese. There are + thousands of them here. In China our missionaries will tell the followers + of Confucius about the love and forgiveness of Christians, and when the + Chinese come here they are robbed, assaulted, and often murdered. Would it + not be a good thing for the Methodists to civilize our own Christians to + such a degree that they would not murder a man simply because he belongs + to another race and worships other gods? + </p> + <p> + So, too, I think it would be a good thing for the Methodists to go South + and persuade their brethren in that country to treat the colored people + with kindness. A few efforts might be made to convert the "White-caps" in + Ohio, Indiana and some other States. + </p> + <p> + My advice to the Methodists is to do what little good they can right here + and now. It seems cruel to preach to the heathen a gospel that is dying + out even here, and fill their poor minds with the absurd dogmas and cruel + creeds that intelligent men have outgrown and thrown away. + </p> + <p> + Honest commerce will do a thousand times more good than all the + missionaries on earth. I do not believe that an intelligent Chinaman or an + intelligent Hindoo has ever been or ever will be converted into a + Methodist. If Methodism is good we need it here, and if it is not good, do + not fool the heathen with it. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Press</i>, Cleveland, Ohio, November 12, 1891. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0094" id="link0094"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + MY BELIEF AND UNBELIEF.* + </h2> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + [* Col. Robert G. Ingersoll was in Toledo for a few hours + yesterday afternoon on railroad business. Whatever Mr. + Ingersoll says is always read with interest, for besides the + independence of his averments, his ideas are worded in a way + that in itself is attractive. + + While in the court room talking with some of the officials + and others, he was saying that in this world there is rather + an unequal distribution of comforts, rewards, and + punishments. For himself, he had fared pretty well. He + stated that during the thirty years he has been married + there have been fifteen to twenty of his relatives under the + same roof, but never had there been in his family a death or + a night's loss of sleep on account of sickness. + + "The Lord has been pretty good to you," suggested Marshall + Wade. + + "Well, I've been pretty good to him," he answered.] +</pre> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I have heard people in discussing yourself and your + views, express the belief that way down in the depths of your mind you are + not altogether a "disbeliever." Are they in any sense correct? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I am an unbeliever, and I am a believer. I do not believe + in the miraculous, the supernatural, or the impossible. I do not believe + in the "Mosaic" account of the creation, or in the flood, or the Tower of + Babel, or that General Joshua turned back the sun or stopped the earth. I + do not believe in the Jonah story, or that God and the Devil troubled poor + Job. Neither do I believe in the Mt. Sinai business, and I have my doubts + about the broiled quails furnished in the wilderness. Neither do I believe + that man is wholly depraved. I have not the least faith in the Eden, snake + and apple story. Neither do I believe that God is an eternal jailer; that + he is going to be the warden of an everlasting penitentiary in which the + most of men are to be eternally tormented. I do not believe that any man + can be justly punished or rewarded on account of his belief. + </p> + <p> + But I do believe in the nobility of human nature. I believe in love and + home, and kindness and humanity. I believe in good fellowship and + cheerfulness, in making wife and children happy. I believe in good nature, + in giving to others all the rights that you claim for yourself. I believe + in free thought, in reason, observation and experience. I believe in + self-reliance and in expressing your honest thought. I have hope for the + whole human race. What will happen to one, will, I hope, happen to all, + and that, I hope, will be good. Above all, I believe in Liberty. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Blade</i>, Toledo, Ohio, January 9, 1892. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0095" id="link0095"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + MUST RELIGION GO? + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your idea as to the difference between honest + belief, as held by honest religious thinkers, and heterodoxy? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course, I believe that there are thousands of men and + women who honestly believe not only in the improbable, not only in the + absurd, but in the impossible. Heterodoxy, so-called, occupies the + half-way station between superstition and reason. A heretic is one who is + still dominated by religion, but in the east of whose mind there is a + dawn. He is one who has seen the morning star; he has not entire + confidence in the day, and imagines in some way that even the light he + sees was born of the night. In the mind of the heretic, darkness and light + are mingled, the ties of intellectual kindred bind him to the night, and + yet he has enough of the spirit of adventure to look toward the east. Of + course, I admit that Christians and heretics are both honest; a real + Christian must be honest and a real heretic must be the same. All men must + be honest in what they think; but all men are not honest in what they say. + In the invisible world of the mind every man is honest. The judgment never + was bribed. Speech may be false, but conviction is always honest. So that + the difference between honest belief, as shared by honest religious + thinkers and heretics, is a difference of intelligence. It is the + difference between a ship lashed to the dock, and on making a voyage; it + is the difference between twilight and dawn—that is to say, the + coming of the sight and the coming of the morning. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are women becoming freed from the bonds of sectarianism? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Women are less calculating than men. As a rule they do not + occupy the territory of compromise. They are natural extremists. The woman + who is not dominated by superstition is apt to be absolutely free, and + when a woman has broken the shackles of superstition, she has no + apprehension, no fears. She feels that she is on the open sea, and she + cares neither for wind nor wave. An emancipated woman never can be + re-enslaved. Her heart goes with her opinions, and goes first. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you consider that the influence of religion is better + than the influence of Liberalism upon society, that is to say, is society + less or more moral, is vice more or less conspicuous? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Whenever a chain is broken an obligation takes its place. + There is and there can be no responsibility without liberty. The freer a + man is, the more responsible, the more accountable he feels; consequently + the more liberty there is, the more morality there is. Believers in + religion teach us that God will reward men for good actions, but men who + are intellectually free, know that the reward of a good action cannot be + given by any power, but that it is the natural result of the good action. + The free man, guided by intelligence, knows that his reward is in the + nature of things, and not in the caprice even of the Infinite. He is not a + good and faithful servant, he is an intelligent free man. + </p> + <p> + The vicious are ignorant; real morality is the child of intelligence; the + free and intelligent man knows that every action must be judged by its + consequences; he knows that if he does good he reaps a good harvest; he + knows that if he does evil he bears a burden, and he knows that these good + and evil consequences are not determined by an infinite master, but that + they live in and are produced by the actions themselves. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Evening Advertiser</i>, New York, February 6, 1892. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0096" id="link0096"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + WORD PAINTING AND COLLEGE EDUCATION. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is the history of the speech delivered here in 1876? + Was it extemporaneous? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It was not born entirely of the occasion. It took me + several years to put the thoughts in form—to paint the pictures with + words. No man can do his best on the instant. Iron to be beaten into + perfect form has to be heated several times and turned upon the anvil many + more, and hammered long and often. + </p> + <p> + You might as well try to paint a picture with one sweep of the brush, or + chisel a statue with one stroke, as to paint many pictures with words, + without great thought and care. Now and then, while a man is talking, + heated with his subject, a great thought, sudden as a flash of lightning, + illumines the intellectual sky, and a great sentence clothed in words of + purple, falls, or rather rushes, from his lips—but a continuous + flight is born, not only of enthusiasm, but of long and careful thought. A + perfect picture requires more details, more lights and shadows, than the + mind can grasp at once, or on the instant. Thoughts are not born of + chance. They grow and bud and blossom, and bear the fruit of perfect form. + </p> + <p> + Genius is the soil and climate, but the soil must be cultivated, and the + harvest is not instantly after the planting. It takes time and labor to + raise and harvest a crop from that field called the brain. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think young men need a college education to get + along? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Probably many useless things are taught in colleges. I + think, as a rule, too much time is wasted learning the names of the cards + without learning to play a game. I think a young man should be taught + something that he can use—something he can sell. After coming from + college he should be better equipped to battle with the world—to do + something of use. A man may have his brain stuffed with Greek and Latin + without being able to fill his stomach with anything of importance. Still, + I am in favor of the highest education. I would like to see splendid + schools in every State, and then a university, and all scholars passing a + certain examination sent to the State university free, and then a United + States university, the best in the world, and all graduates of the State + universities passing a certain examination sent to the United States + university free. We ought to have in this country the best library, the + best university, the best school of design in the world; and so I say, + more money for the mind. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Was the peculiar conduct of the Rev. Dr. Parkhurst, of + New York, justifiable, and do you think that it had a tendency to help + morality? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. If Christ had written a decoy letter to the woman to whom + he said: "Go and sin no more," and if he had disguised himself and visited + her house and had then lodged a complaint against her before the police + and testified against her, taking one of his disciples with him, I do not + think he would have added to his reputation. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The News</i>, Indianapolis, Indiana, February 18, 1892. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0097" id="link0097"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + PERSONAL MAGNETISM AND THE SUNDAY QUESTION. + </h2> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + [Colonel Ingersoll was a picturesque figure as he sat in his + room at the Gibson House yesterday, while the balmy May + breeze blew through the open windows, fluttered the lace + curtains and tossed the great Infidel's snowy hair to and + fro. The Colonel had come in from New York during the + morning and the keen white sunlight of a lovely May day + filled his heart with gladness. After breakfast, the man + who preaches the doctrine of the Golden Rule and the Gospel + of Humanity and the while chaffs the gentlemen of the + clerical profession, was in a fine humor. He was busy with + cards and callers, but not too busy to admire the vase full + of freshly-picked spring flowers that stood on the mantel, + and wrestled with clouds of cigar smoke, to see which + fragrance should dominate the atmosphere. + + To a reporter of <i>The Commercial Gazette</i>, the Colonel spoke + freely and interestingly upon a variety of subjects, from + personal magnetism in politics to mob rule in Tennessee. He + had been interested in Colonel Weir's statement about the + lack of gas in Exposition Hall, at the 1876 convention, and + when asked if he believed there was any truth in the stories + that the gas supply had been manipulated so as to prevent + the taking of a ballot after he had placed James G. Blaine + in nomination, he replied: ] +</pre> + <p> + All I can say is, that I heard such a story the day after the convention, + but I do not know whether or not it is true. I have always believed, that + if a vote had been taken that evening, Blaine would have been nominated, + possibly not as the effect of my speech, but the night gave time for + trafficking, and that is always dangerous in a convention. I believed then + that Blaine ought to have been nominated, and that it would have been a + very wise thing for the party to have done. That he was not the candidate + was due partly to accident and partly to political traffic, but that is + one of the bygones, and I believe there is an old saying to the effect + that even the gods have no mastery over the past. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think that eloquence is potent in a convention to + set aside the practical work of politics and politicians? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think that all the eloquence in the world cannot affect a + trade if the parties to the contract stand firm, and when people have made + a political trade they are not the kind of people to be affected by + eloquence. The practical work of the world has very little to do with + eloquence. There are a great many thousand stone masons to one sculptor, + and houses and walls are not constructed by sculptors, but by masons. The + daily wants of the world are supplied by the practical workers, by men of + talent, not by men of genius, although in the world of invention, genius + has done more, it may be, than the workers themselves. I fancy the + machinery now in the world does the work of many hundreds of millions; + that there is machinery enough now to do several times the work that could + be done by all the men, women and children of the earth. The genius who + invented the reaper did more work and will do more work in the harvest + field than thousands of millions of men, and the same may be said of the + great engines that drive the locomotives and the ships. All these + marvelous machines were made by men of genius, but they are not the men + who in fact do the work. + </p> + <p> + [This led the Colonel to pay a brilliant tribute to the great orators of + ancient and modern times, the peer of all of them being Cicero. He + dissected and defined oratory and eloquence, and explained with + picturesque figures, wherein the difference between them lay. As he + mentioned the magnetism of public speakers, he was asked as to his opinion + of the value of personal magnetism in political life.] + </p> + <p> + It may be difficult to define what personal magnetism is, but I think it + may be defined in this way: You don't always feel like asking a man whom + you meet on the street what direction you should take to reach a certain + point. You often allow three or four to pass, before you meet one who + seems to invite the question. So, too, there are men by whose side you may + sit for hours in the cars without venturing a remark as to the weather, + and there are others to whom you will commence talking the moment you sit + down. There are some men who look as if they would grant a favor, men + toward whom you are unconsciously drawn, men who have a real human look, + men with whom you seem to be acquainted almost before you speak, and that + you really like before you know anything about them. It may be that we are + all electric batteries; that we have our positive and our negative poles; + it may be that we need some influence that certain others impart, and it + may be that certain others have that which we do not need and which we do + not want, and the moment you think that, you feel annoyed and hesitate, + and uncomfortable, and possibly hateful. + </p> + <p> + I suppose there is a physical basis for everything. Possibly the best test + of real affection between man and woman, or of real friendship between man + and woman, is that they can sit side by side, for hours maybe, without + speaking, and yet be having a really social time, each feeling that the + other knows exactly what they are thinking about. Now, the man you meet + and whom you would not hesitate a moment to ask a favor of, is what I call + a magnetic man. This magnetism, or whatever it may be, assists in making + friends, and of course is a great help to any one who deals with the + public. Men like a magnetic man even without knowing him, perhaps simply + having seen him. There are other men, whom the moment you shake hands with + them, you feel you want no more; you have had enough. A sudden chill runs + up the arm the moment your hand touches theirs, and finally reaches the + heart; you feel, if you had held that hand a moment longer, an icicle + would have formed in the brain. Such people lack personal magnetism. These + people now and then thaw out when you get thoroughly acquainted with them, + and you find that the ice is all on the outside, and then you come to like + them very well, but as a rule first impressions are lasting. Magnetism is + what you might call the climate of a man. Some men, and some women, look + like a perfect June day, and there are others who, while the look quite + smiling, yet you feel that the sky is becoming overcast, and the signs all + point to an early storm. There are people who are autumnal—that is + to say, generous. They have had their harvest, and have plenty to spare. + Others look like the end of an exceedingly hard winter—between the + hay and grass, the hay mostly gone and the grass not yet come up. So you + will see that I think a great deal of this thing that is called magnetism. + As I said, there are good people who are not magnetic, but I do not care + to make an Arctic expedition for the purpose of discovering the north pole + of their character. I would rather stay with those who make me feel + comfortable at the first. + </p> + <p> + [From personal magnetism to the lynching Saturday morning down at + Nashville, Tennessee, was a far cry, but when Colonel Ingersoll was asked + what he thought of mob law, whether there was any extenuation, any + propriety and moral effect resultant from it, he quickly answered: ] + </p> + <p> + I do not believe in mob law at any time, among any people. I believe in + justice being meted out in accordance with the forms of law. If a + community violates that law, why should not the individual? The example is + bad. Besides all that, no punishment inflicted by a mob tends to prevent + the commission of crime. Horrible punishment hardens the community, and + that in itself produces more crime. + </p> + <p> + There seems to be a sort of fascination in frightful punishments, but, to + say the least of it, all these things demoralize the community. In some + countries, you know, they whip people for petty offences. The whipping, + however, does no good, and on the other hand it does harm; it hardens + those who administer the punishment and those who witness it, and it + degrades those who receive it. There will be but little charity in the + world, and but little progress until men see clearly that there is no + chance in the world of conduct any more than in the physical world. + </p> + <p> + Back of every act and dream and thought and desire and virtue and crime is + the efficient cause. If you wish to change mankind, you must change the + conditions. There should be no such thing as punishment. We should + endeavor to reform men, and those who cannot be reformed should be placed + where they cannot injure their fellows. The State should never take + revenge any more than the community should form itself into a mob and take + revenge. This does harm, not good. The time will come when the world will + no more think of sending men to the penitentiary for stealing, as a + punishment, that it will for sending a man to the penitentiary because he + has consumption. When that time comes, the object will be to reform men; + to prevent crime instead of punishing it, and the object then will be to + make the conditions such that honest people will be the result, but as + long as hundreds of thousands of human beings live in tenements, as long + as babes are raised in gutters, as long as competition is so sharp that + hundreds of thousands must of necessity be failures, just so long as + society gets down on its knees before the great and successful thieves, + before the millionaire thieves, just so long will it have to fill the + jails and prisons with the little thieves. When the "good time" comes, men + will not be judged by the money they have accumulated, but by the uses + they make of it. So men will be judged, not according to their + intelligence, but by what they are endeavoring to accomplish with their + intelligence. In other words, the time will come when character will rise + above all. There is a great line in Shakespeare that I have often quoted, + and that cannot be quoted too often: "There is no darkness but ignorance." + Let the world set itself to work to dissipate this darkness; let us flood + the world with intellectual light. This cannot be accomplished by mobs or + lynchers. It must be done by the noblest, by the greatest, and by the + best. + </p> + <p> + [The conversation shifting around to the Sunday question; the opening of + the World's Fair on Sunday, the attacks of the pulpit upon the Sunday + newspapers, the opening of parks and museums and libraries on Sunday, + Colonel Ingersoll waxed eloquent, and in answer to many questions uttered + these paragraphs: ] + </p> + <p> + Of course, people will think that I have some prejudice against the + parsons, but really I think the newspaper press is of far more importance + in the world than the pulpit. If I should admit in a kind of burst of + generosity, and simply for the sake of making a point, that the pulpit can + do some good, how much can it do without the aid of the press? Here is a + parson preaching to a few ladies and enough men, it may be, to pass the + contribution box, and all he says dies within the four walls of that + church. How many ministers would it take to reform the world, provided I + again admit in a burst of generosity, that there is any reforming power in + what they preach, working along that line? + </p> + <p> + The Sunday newspaper, I think, is the best of any day in the week. That + paper keeps hundreds and thousands at home. You can find in it information + about almost everything in the world. One of the great Sunday papers will + keep a family busy reading almost all day. Now, I do not wonder that the + ministers are so opposed to the Sunday newspaper, and so they are opposed + to anything calculated to decrease the attendance at church. Why, they + want all the parks, all the museums, all the libraries closed on Sunday, + and they want the World's Fair closed on Sunday. + </p> + <p> + Now, I am in favor of Sunday; in fact, I am perfectly willing to have two + of them a week, but I want Sunday as a day of recreation and pleasure. The + fact is we ought not to work hard enough during the week to require a day + of rest. Every day ought to be so arranged that there would be time for + rest from the labor of that day. Sunday is a good day to get business out + of your mind, to forget the ledger and the docket and the ticker, to + forget profits and losses, and enjoy yourself. It is a good day to go to + the art museums, to look at pictures and statues and beautiful things, so + that you may feel that there is something in this world besides money and + mud. It is a good day, is Sunday, to go to the libraries and spend a + little time with the great and splendid dead, and to go to the cemetery + and think of those who are sleeping there, and to give a little thought to + the time when you, too, like them, will fall asleep. I think it is a good + day for almost anything except going to church. There is no need of that; + everybody knows the story, and if a man has worked hard all the week, you + can hardly call it recreation if he goes to church Sunday and hears that + his chances are ninety-nine in a hundred in favor of being eternally + damned. + </p> + <p> + So it is I am in favor of having the World's Fair open on Sunday. It will + be a good day to look at the best the world has produced; a good day to + leave the saloons and commune for a little while with the mighty spirits + that have glorified this world. Sunday is a good day to leave the + churches, where they teach that man has become totally depraved, and look + at the glorious things that have been wrought by these depraved beings. + Besides all this, it is the day of days for the working man and working + woman, for those who have to work all the week. In New York an attempt was + made to open the Metropolitan Museum of Art on Sunday, and the pious + people opposed it. They thought it would interfere with the joy of heaven + if people were seen in the park enjoying themselves on Sunday, and they + also held that nobody would visit the Museum if it were opened on Sunday; + that the "common people" had no love for pictures and statues and cared + nothing about art. The doors were opened, and it was demonstrated that the + poor people, the toilers and workers, did want to see such things on + Sunday, and now more people visit the Museum on Sunday than on all the + other days of the week put together. The same is true of the public + libraries. There is something to me infinitely pharisaical, hypocritical + and farcical in this Sunday nonsense. The rich people who favor keeping + Sunday "holy," have their coachman drive them to church and wait outside + until the services end. What do they care about the coachman's soul? While + they are at church their cooks are busy at home getting dinner ready. What + do they care for the souls of cooks? The whole thing is pretence, and + nothing but pretence. It is the instinct of business. It is the + competition of the gospel shop with other shops and places of resort. + </p> + <p> + The ministers, of course, are opposed to all shows except their own, for + they know that very few will come to see or hear them and the choice must + be the church or nothing. + </p> + <p> + I do not believe that one day can be more holy than another unless more + joyous than another. The holiest day is the happiest day— the day on + which wives and children and men are happiest. In that sense a day can be + holy. + </p> + <p> + Our idea of the Sabbath is from the Puritans, and they imagined that a man + has to be miserable in order to excite the love of God. We have outgrown + the old New England Sabbath—the old Scotch horror. The Germans have + helped us and have set a splendid example. I do not see how a poor + workingman can go to church for recreation—I mean an orthodox + church. A man who has hell here cannot be benefitted by being assured that + he is likely to have hell hereafter. The whole business I hold in perfect + abhorrence. + </p> + <p> + They tell us that God will not prosper us unless we observe the Sabbath. + The Jews kept the Sabbath and yet Jehovah deserted them, and they are a + people without a nation. The Scotch kept Sunday; they are not independent. + The French never kept Sunday, and yet they are the most prosperous nation + in Europe. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Commercial Gazette</i>, Cincinnati, Ohio, May 2, 1892. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0098" id="link0098"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + AUTHORS. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Who, in your opinion, is the greatest novelist who has + written in the English language? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The greatest novelist, in my opinion, who has ever written + in the English language, was Charles Dickens. He was the greatest observer + since Shakespeare. He had the eyes that see, the ears that really hear. I + place him above Thackeray. Dickens wrote for the home, for the great + public. Thackeray wrote for the clubs. The greatest novel in our language—and + it may be in any other—is, according to my ideas, "A Tale of Two + Cities." In that, are philosophy, pathos, self-sacrifice, wit, humor, the + grotesque and the tragic. I think it is the most artistic novel that I + have read. The creations of Dickens' brain have become the citizens of the + world. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of American writers? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think Emerson was a fine writer, and he did this world a + great deal of good, but I do not class him with the first. Some of his + poetry is wonderfully good and in it are some of the deepest and most + beautiful lines. I think he was a poet rather than a philosopher. His + doctrine of compensation would be delightful if it had the facts to + support it. + </p> + <p> + Of course, Hawthorne was a great writer. His style is a little monotonous, + but the matter is good. "The Marble Faun" is by far his best effort. I + shall always regret that Hawthorne wrote the life of Franklin Pierce. + </p> + <p> + Walt Whitman will hold a high place among American writers. His poem on + the death of Lincoln, entitled "When Lilacs Last in the Dooryard Bloom'd," + is the greatest ever written on this continent. He was a natural poet and + wrote lines worthy of America. He was the poet of democracy and + individuality, and of liberty. He was worthy of the great Republic. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What about Henry George's books? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Henry George wrote a wonderful book and one that arrested + the attention of the world—one of the greatest books of the century. + While I do not believe in his destructive theories, I gladly pay a tribute + to his sincerity and his genius. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of Bellamy? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not think what is called nationalism of the Bellamy + kind is making any particular progress in this country. We are believers + in individual independence, and will be, I hope, forever. + </p> + <p> + Boston was at one time the literary center of the country, but the best + writers are not living here now. The best novelists of our country are not + far from Boston. Edgar Fawcett lives in New York. Howells was born, I + believe, in Ohio, and Julian Hawthorne lives in New Jersey or in Long + Island. Among the poets, James Whitcomb Riley is a native of Indiana, and + he has written some of the daintiest and sweetest things in American + literature. Edgar Fawcett is a great poet. His "Magic Flower" is as + beautiful as anything Tennyson has ever written. Eugene Field of Chicago, + has written some charming things, natural and touching. + </p> + <p> + Westward the star of literature takes its course. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Star</i>, Kansas City, Mo., May 26, 1892. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0099" id="link0099"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + INEBRIETY.* + </h2> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + [* Published from notes found among Colonel Ingersoll's + papers, evidently written soon after the discovery of the + "Keeley Cure."] +</pre> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you consider inebriety a disease, or the result of + diseased conditions? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I believe that by a long and continuous use of stimulants, + the system gets in such a condition that it imperatively demands not only + the usual, but an increased stimulant. After a time, every nerve becomes + hungry, and there is in the body of the man a cry, coming from every + nerve, for nourishment. There is a kind of famine, and unless the want is + supplied, insanity is the result. This hunger of the nerves drowns the + voice of reason—cares nothing for argument—nothing for + experience—nothing for the sufferings of others—nothing for + anything, except for the food it requires. Words are wasted, advice is of + no possible use, argument is like reasoning with the dead. The man has + lost the control of his will —it has been won over to the side of + the nerves. He imagines that if the nerves are once satisfied he can then + resume the control of himself. Of course, this is a mistake, and the more + the nerves are satisfied, the more imperative is their demand. Arguments + are not of the slightest force. The knowledge—the conviction—that + the course pursued is wrong, has no effect. The man is in the grasp of + appetite. He is like a ship at the mercy of wind and wave and tide. The + fact that the needle of the compass points to the north has no effect—the + compass is not a force—it cannot battle with the wind and tide—and + so, in spite of the fact that the needle points to the north, the ship is + stranded on the rocks. + </p> + <p> + So the fact that the man knows that he should not drink has not the + slightest effect upon him. The sophistry of passion outweighs all that + reason can urge. In other words, the man is the victim of disease, and + until the disease is arrested, his will is not his own. He may wish to + reform, but wish is not will. He knows all of the arguments in favor of + temperance—he knows all about the distress of wife and child—all + about the loss of reputation and character—all about the chasm + toward which he is drifting—and yet, not being the master of + himself, he goes with the tide. + </p> + <p> + For thousands of years society has sought to do away with inebriety by + argument, by example, by law; and yet millions and millions have been + carried away and countless thousands have become victims of alcohol. In + this contest words have always been worthless, for the reason that no + argument can benefit a man who has lost control of himself. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. As a lawyer, will you express an opinion as to the moral + and legal responsibility of a victim of alcoholism? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Personally, I regard the moral and legal responsibility of + all persons as being exactly the same. All persons do as they must. If you + wish to change the conduct of an individual you must change his conditions—otherwise + his actions will remain the same. + </p> + <p> + We are beginning to find that there is no effect without a cause, and that + the conduct of individuals is not an exception to this law. Every hope, + every fear, every dream, every virtue, every crime, has behind it an + efficient cause. Men do neither right nor wrong by chance. In the world of + fact and in the world of conduct, as well as in the world of imagination, + there is no room, no place, for chance. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. In the case of an inebriate who has committed a crime, + what do you think of the common judicial opinion that such a criminal is + as deserving of punishment as a person not inebriated? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I see no difference. Believing as I do that all persons act + as they must, it makes not the slightest difference whether the person so + acting is what we call inebriated, or sane, or insane —he acts as he + must. + </p> + <p> + There should be no such thing as punishment. Society should protect itself + by such means as intelligence and humanity may suggest, but the idea of + punishment is barbarous. No man ever was, no man ever will be, made better + by punishment. Society should have two objects in view: First, the defence + of itself, and second, the reformation of the so-called criminal. + </p> + <p> + The world has gone on fining, imprisoning, torturing and killing the + victims of condition and circumstance, and condition and circumstance have + gone on producing the same kind of men and women year after year and + century after century—and all this is so completely within the + control of cause and effect, within the scope and jurisdiction of + universal law, that we can prophesy the number of criminals for the next + year—the thieves and robbers and murderers —with almost + absolute certainty. + </p> + <p> + There are just so many mistakes committed every year—so many crimes + —so many heartless and foolish things done—and it does not + seem to be—at least by the present methods—possible to + increase or decrease the number. + </p> + <p> + We have thousands and thousands of pulpits, and thousands of moralists, + and countless talkers and advisers, but all these sermons, and all the + advice, and all the talk, seem utterly powerless in the presence of cause + and effect. Mothers may pray, wives may weep, children may starve, but the + great procession moves on. + </p> + <p> + For thousands of years the world endeavored to save itself from disease by + ceremonies, by genuflections, by prayers, by an appeal to the charity and + mercy of heaven—but the diseases flourished and the graveyards + became populous, and all the ceremonies and all the prayers were without + the slightest effect. We must at last recognize the fact, that not only + life, but conduct, has a physical basis. We must at last recognize the + fact that virtue and vice, genius and stupidity, are born of certain + conditions. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. In which way do you think the reformation or + reconstruction of the inebriate is to be effected—by punishment, by + moral suasion, by seclusion, or by medical treatment? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In the first place, punishment simply increases the + disease. The victim, without being able to give the reasons, feels that + punishment is unjust, and thus feeling, the effect of the punishment + cannot be good. + </p> + <p> + You might as well punish a man for having the consumption which he + inherited from his parents, or for having a contagious disease which was + given to him without his fault, as to punish him for drunkenness. No one + wishes to be unhappy—no one wishes to destroy his own well-being. + All persons prefer happiness to unhappiness, and success to failure, + Consequently, you might as well punish a man for being unhappy, and thus + increase his unhappiness, as to punish him for drunkenness. In neither + case is he responsible for what he suffers. + </p> + <p> + Neither can you cure this man by what is called moral suasion. Moral + suasion, if it amounts to anything, is the force of argument —that + is to say, the result of presenting the facts to the victim. Now, of all + persons in the world, the victim knows the facts. He knows not only the + effect upon those who love him, but the effect upon himself. There are no + words that can add to his vivid appreciation of the situation. There is no + language so eloquent as the sufferings of his wife and children. All these + things the drunkard knows, and knows perfectly, and knows as well as any + other human being can know. At the same time, he feels that the tide and + current of passion are beyond his power. He feels that he cannot row + against the stream. + </p> + <p> + There is but one way, and that is, to treat the drunkard as the victim of + a disease—treat him precisely as you would a man with a fever, as a + man suffering from smallpox, or with some form of indigestion. It is + impossible to talk a man out of consumption, or to reason him out of + typhoid fever. You may tell him that he ought not to die, that he ought to + take into consideration the condition in which he would leave his wife. + You may talk to him about his children—the necessity of their being + fed and educated —but all this will have nothing to do with the + progress of the disease. The man does not wish to die—he wishes to + live—and yet, there will come a time in his disease when even that + wish to live loses its power to will, and the man drifts away on the tide, + careless of life or death. + </p> + <p> + So it is with drink. Every nerve asks for a stimulant. Every drop of blood + cries out for assistance, and in spite of all argument, in spite of all + knowledge, in this famine of the nerves, a man loses the power of will. + Reason abdicates the throne, and hunger takes its place. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Will you state your reasons for your belief? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In the first place, I will give a reason for my unbelief in + what is called moral suasion and in legislation. + </p> + <p> + As I said before, for thousands and thousands of years, fathers and + mothers and daughters and sisters and brothers have been endeavoring to + prevent the ones they love from drink, and yet, in spite of everything, + millions have gone on and filled at last a drunkard's grave. So, societies + have been formed all over the world. But the consumption of ardent spirits + has steadily increased. Laws have been passed in nearly all the nations of + the world upon the subject, and these laws, so far as I can see, have done + but little, if any, good. + </p> + <p> + And the same old question is upon us now: What shall be done with the + victims of drink? There have been probably many instances in which men + have signed the pledge and have reformed. I do not say that it is not + possible to reform many men, in certain stages, by moral suasion. + Possibly, many men can be reformed in certain stages, by law; but the per + cent. is so small that, in spite of that per cent., the average increases. + For these reasons, I have lost confidence in legislation and in moral + suasion. I do not say what legislation may do by way of prevention, or + what moral suasion may do in the same direction, but I do say that after + man have become the victims of alcohol, advice and law seem to have lost + their force. + </p> + <p> + I believe that science is to become the savior of mankind. In other words, + every appetite, every excess, has a physical basis, and if we only knew + enough of the human system—of the tides and currents of thought and + will and wish—enough of the storms of passion—if we only knew + how the brain acts and operates—if we only knew the relation between + blood and thought, between thought and act—if we only knew the + conditions of conduct, then we could, through science, control the + passions of the human race. + </p> + <p> + When I first heard of the cure of inebriety through scientific means, I + felt that the morning star had risen in the east—I felt that at last + we were finding solid ground. I did not accept—being of a skeptical + turn of mind—all that I heard as true. I preferred to hope, and + wait. I have waited, until I have seen men, the victims of alcohol, in the + very gutter of disgrace and despair, lifted from the mire, rescued from + the famine of desire, from the grasp of appetite. I have seen them + suddenly become men—masters and monarchs of themselves. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0100" id="link0100"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + MIRACLES, THEOSOPHY AND SPIRITUALISM. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you believe that there is such a thing as a miracle, + or that there has ever been? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Mr. Locke was in the habit of saying: "Define your terms." + So the first question is, What is a miracle? If it is something wonderful, + unusual, inexplicable, then there have been many miracles. If you mean + simply that which is inexplicable, then the world is filled with miracles; + but if you mean by a miracle, something contrary to the facts in nature, + then it seems to me that the miracle must be admitted to be an + impossibility. It is like twice two are eleven in mathematics. + </p> + <p> + If, again, we take the ground of some of the more advanced clergy, that a + miracle is in accordance with the facts in nature, but with facts unknown + to man, then we are compelled to say that a miracle is performed by a + divine sleight-of-hand; as, for instance, that our senses are deceived; + or, that it is perfectly simple to this higher intelligence, while + inexplicable to us. If we give this explanation, then man has been imposed + upon by a superior intelligence. It is as though one acquainted with the + sciences—with the action of electricity—should excite the + wonder of savages by sending messages to his partner. The savage would + say, "A miracle;" but the one who sent the message would say, "There is no + miracle; it is in accordance with facts in nature unknown to you." So + that, after all, the word miracle grows in the soil of ignorance. + </p> + <p> + The question arises whether a superior intelligence ought to impose upon + the inferior. I believe there was a French saint who had his head cut off + by robbers, and this saint, after the robbers went away, got up, took his + head under his arm and went on his way until he found friends to set it on + right. A thing like this, if it really happened, was a miracle. + </p> + <p> + So it may be said that nothing is much more miraculous than the fact that + intelligent men believe in miracles. If we read in the annals of China + that several thousand years ago five thousand people were fed on one + sandwich, and that several sandwiches were left over after the feast, + there are few intelligent men—except, it may be, the editors of + religious weeklies—who would credit the statement. But many + intelligent people, reading a like story in the Hebrew, or in the Greek, + or in a mistranslation from either of these languages, accept the story + without a doubt. + </p> + <p> + So if we should find in the records of the Indians that a celebrated + medicine-man of their tribe used to induce devils to leave crazy people + and take up their abode in wild swine, very few people would believe the + story. + </p> + <p> + I believe it is true that the priest of one religion has never had the + slightest confidence in the priest of any other religion. + </p> + <p> + My own opinion is, that nature is just as wonderful one time as another; + that that which occurs to-day is just as miraculous as anything that ever + happened; that nothing is more wonderful than that we live—that we + think—that we convey our thoughts by speech, by gestures, by + pictures. + </p> + <p> + Nothing is more wonderful than the growth of grass—the production of + seed—the bud, the blossom and the fruit. In other words, we are + surrounded by the inexplicable. + </p> + <p> + All that happens in conformity with what we know, we call natural; and + that which is said to have happened, not in conformity with what we know, + we say is wonderful; and that which we believe to have happened contrary + to what we know, we call the miraculous. + </p> + <p> + I think the truth is, that nothing ever happened except in a natural way; + that behind every effect has been an efficient cause, and that this + wondrous procession of causes and effects has never been, and never will + be, broken. In other words, there is nothing superior to the universe—nothing + that can interfere with this procession of causes and effects. I believe + in no miracles in the theological sense. My opinion is that the universe + is, forever has been, and forever will be, perfectly natural. + </p> + <p> + Whenever a religion has been founded among barbarians and ignorant people, + the founder has appealed to miracle as a kind of credential —as an + evidence that he is in partnership with some higher power. The credulity + of savagery made this easy. But at last we have discovered that there is + no necessary relation between the miraculous and the moral. Whenever a + man's reason is developed to that point that he sees the reasonableness of + a thing, he needs no miracle to convince him. It is only ignorance or + cunning that appeals to the miraculous. + </p> + <p> + There is another thing, and that is this: Truth relies upon itself —that + is to say, upon the perceived relation between itself and all other + truths. If you tell the facts, you need not appeal to a miracle. It is + only a mistake or a falsehood, that needs to be propped and buttressed by + wonders and miracles. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your explanation of the miracles referred to in + the Old and New Testaments? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In the first place, a miracle cannot be explained. If it is + a real miracle, there is no explanation. If it can be explained, then the + miracle disappears, and the thing was done in accordance with the facts + and forces of nature. + </p> + <p> + In a time when not one it may be in thousands could read or write, when + language was rude, and when the signs by which thoughts were conveyed were + few and inadequate, it was very easy to make mistakes, and nothing is more + natural than for a mistake to grow into a miracle. In an ignorant age, + history for the most part depended upon memory. It was handed down from + the old in their dotage, to the young without judgment. The old always + thought that the early days were wonderful—that the world was + wearing out because they were. The past looked at through the haze of + memory, became exaggerated, gigantic. Their fathers were stronger than + they, and their grandfathers far superior to their fathers, and so on + until they reached men who had the habit of living about a thousand years. + </p> + <p> + In my judgment, everything in the Old Testament contrary to the experience + of the civilized world, is false. I do not say that those who told the + stories knew that they were false, or that those who wrote them suspected + that they were not true. Thousands and thousands of lies are told by + honest stupidity and believed by innocent credulity. Then again, cunning + takes advantage of ignorance, and so far as I know, though all the history + of the world a good many people have endeavored to make a living without + work. + </p> + <p> + I am perfectly convinced of the integrity of nature—that the + elements are eternally the same—that the chemical affinities and + hatreds know no shadow of turning—that just so many atoms of one + kind combine with so many atoms of another, and that the relative numbers + have never changed and never will change. I am satisfied that the + attraction of gravitation is a permanent institution; that the laws of + motion have been the same that they forever will be. There is no chance, + there is no caprice. Behind every effect is a cause, and every effect must + in its turn become a cause, and only that is produced which a cause of + necessity produces. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of Madame Blavatsky and her school of + Theosophists? Do you believe Madame Blavatsky does or has done the + wonderful things related of her? Have you seen or known of any + Theosophical or esoteric marvels? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think wonders are about the same in this country that + they are in India, and nothing appears more likely to me simply because it + is surrounded with the mist of antiquity. In my judgment, Madame Blavatsky + has never done any wonderful things—that is to say, anything not in + perfect accordance with the facts of nature. + </p> + <p> + I know nothing of esoteric marvels. In one sense, everything that exists + is a marvel, and the probability is that if we knew the history of one + grain of sand we would know the history of the universe. I regard the + universe as a unit. Everything that happens is only a different aspect of + that unit. There is no room for the marvelous—there is no space in + which it can operate—there is no fulcrum for its lever. The universe + is already occupied with the natural. The ground is all taken. + </p> + <p> + It may be that all these people are perfectly honest, and imagine that + they have had wonderful experiences. I know but little of the Theosophists—but + little of the Spiritualists. It has always seemed to me that the messages + received by Spiritualists are remarkably unimportant—that they tell + us but little about the other world, and just as little about this—that + if all the messages supposed to have come from angelic lips, or spiritual + lips, were destroyed, certainly the literature of the world would lose but + little. Some of these people are exceedingly intelligent, and whenever + they say any good thing, I imagine that it was produced in their brain, + and that it came from no other world. I have no right to pass upon their + honesty. Most of them may be sincere. It may be that all the founders of + religions have really supposed themselves to be inspired—believed + that they held conversations with angels and Gods. It seems to be easy for + some people to get in such a frame of mind that their thoughts become + realities, their dreams substances, and their very hopes palpable. + </p> + <p> + Personally, I have no sort of confidence in these messages from the other + world. There may be mesmeric forces—there may be an odic force. It + may be that some people can tell of what another is thinking. I have seen + no such people—at least I am not acquainted with them—and my + own opinion is that no such persons exist. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you believe the spirits of the dead come back to + earth? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not. I do not say that the spirits do not come back. I + simply say that I know nothing on the subject. I do not believe in such + spirits, simply for the reason that I have no evidence upon which to base + such a belief. I do not say there are no such spirits, for the reason that + my knowledge is limited, and I know of no way of demonstrating the + non-existence of spirits. + </p> + <p> + It may be that man lives forever, and it may be that what we call life + ends with what we call death. I have had no experience beyond the grave, + and very little back of birth. Consequently, I cannot say that I have a + belief on this subject. I can simply say that I have no knowledge on this + subject, and know of no fact in nature that I would use as the + corner-stone of a belief. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you believe in the resurrection of the body? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. My answer to that is about the same as to the other + question. I do not believe in the resurrection of the body. It seems to me + an exceedingly absurd belief—and yet I do not know. I am told, and I + suppose I believe, that the atoms that are in me have been in many other + people, and in many other forms of life, and I suppose at death the atoms + forming my body go back to the earth and are used in countless forms. + These facts, or what I suppose to be facts, render a belief in the + resurrection of the body impossible to me. + </p> + <p> + We get atoms to support our body from what we eat. Now, if a cannibal + should eat a missionary, and certain atoms belonging to the missionary + should be used by the cannibal in his body, and the cannibal should then + die while the atoms of the missionary formed part of his flesh, to whom + would these atoms belong in the morning of the resurrection? + </p> + <p> + Then again, science teaches us that there is a kind of balance between + animal and vegetable life, and that probably all men and all animals have + been trees, and all trees have been animals; so that the probability is + that the atoms that are now in us have been, as I said in the first place, + in millions of other people. Now, if this be so, there cannot be atoms + enough in the morning of the resurrection, because, if the atoms are given + to the first men, that belonged to the first men when they died, there + will certainly be no atoms for the last men. + </p> + <p> + Consequently, I am compelled to say that I do not believe in the + resurrection of the body.* + </p> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + [* From notes found among Colonel Ingersoll's papers.] +</pre> + <p> + <a name="link0101" id="link0101"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + TOLSTOY AND LITERATURE. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of Count Leo Tolstoy? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have read Tolstoy. He is a curious mixture of simplicity + and philosophy. He seems to have been carried away by his conception of + religion. He is a non-resistant to such a degree that he asserts that he + would not, if attacked, use violence to preserve his own life or the life + of a child. Upon this question he is undoubtedly insane. + </p> + <p> + So he is trying to live the life of a peasant and doing without the + comforts of life! This is not progress. Civilization should not endeavor + to bring about equality by making the rich poor or the comfortable + miserable. This will not add to the pleasures of the rich, neither will it + feed the hungry, not clothe the naked. + </p> + <p> + The civilized wealthy should endeavor to help the needy, and help them in + a sensible way, not through charity, but through industry; through giving + them opportunities to take care of themselves. I do not believe in the + equality that is to be reached by pulling the successful down, but I do + believe in civilization that tends to raise the fallen and assists those + in need. + </p> + <p> + Should we all follow Tolstoy's example and live according to his + philosophy the world would go back to barbarism; art would be lost; that + which elevates and refines would be destroyed; the voice of music would + become silent, and man would be satisfied with a rag, a hut, a crust. We + do not want the equality of savages. + </p> + <p> + No, in civilization there must be differences, because there is a constant + movement forward. The human race cannot advance in line. There will be + pioneers, there will be the great army, and there will be countless + stragglers. It is not necessary for the whole army to go back to the + stragglers, it is better that the army should march forward toward the + pioneers. + </p> + <p> + It may be that the sale of Tolstoy's works is on the increase in America, + but certainly the principles of Tolstoy are gaining no foothold here. We + are not a nation of non-resistants. We believe in defending our homes. + Nothing can exceed the insanity of non- resistance. This doctrine leaves + virtue naked and clothes vice in armor; it gives every weapon to the wrong + and takes every shield from the right. I believe that goodness has the + right of self- defence. As a matter of fact, vice should be left naked and + virtue should have all the weapons. The good should not be a flock of + sheep at the mercy of every wolf. So, I do not accept Tolstoy's theory of + equality as a sensible solution of the labor problem. + </p> + <p> + The hope of this world is that men will become civilized to that degree + that they cannot be happy while they know that thousands of their + fellow-men are miserable. + </p> + <p> + The time will come when the man who dwells in a palace will not be happy + if Want sits upon the steps at his door. No matter how well he is clothed + himself he will not enjoy his robes if he sees others in rags, and the + time will come when the intellect of this world will be directed by the + heart of this world, and when men of genius and power will do what they + can for the benefit of their fellow- men. All this is to come through + civilization, through experience. + </p> + <p> + Men, after a time, will find the worthlessness of great wealth; they will + find it is not splendid to excite envy in others. So, too, they will find + that the happiness of the human race is so interdependent and so + interwoven, that finally the interest of humanity will be the interest of + the individual. + </p> + <p> + I know that at present the lives of many millions are practically without + value, but in my judgment, the world is growing a little better every day. + On the average, men have more comforts, better clothes, better food, more + books and more of the luxuries of life than ever before. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. It is said that properly to appreciate Rousseau, + Voltaire, Hugo and other French classics, a thorough knowledge of the + French language is necessary. What is your opinion? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. No; to say that a knowledge of French is necessary in order + to appreciate Voltaire or Hugo is nonsensical. For a student anxious to + study the works of these masters, to set to work to learn the language of + the writers would be like my building a flight of stairs to go down to + supper. The stairs are already there. Some other person built them for me + and others who choose to use them. + </p> + <p> + Men have spent their lives in the study of the French and English, and + have given us Voltaire, Hugo and all other works of French classics, + perfect in sentiment and construction as the originals are. Macaulay was a + great linguist, but he wrote no better than Shakespeare, and Burns wrote + perfect English, though virtually uneducated. Good writing is a matter of + genius and heart; reading is application and judgment. + </p> + <p> + I am of the opinion that Wilbur's English translation of "Les Miserables" + is better than Hugo's original, as a literary masterpiece. + </p> + <p> + What a grand novel it is! What characters, Jean Valjean and Javert! + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Which in your opinion is the greatest English novel? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think the greatest novel ever written in English is "A + Tale of Two Cities," by Dickens. It is full of philosophy; its incidents + are dramatically grouped. Sidney Carton, the hero, is a marvelous creation + and a marvelous character. Lucie Manette is as delicate as the perfume of + wild violets, and cell 105, North Tower, and scenes enacted there, almost + touch the region occupied by "Lear." There, too, Mme. Defarge is the + impersonation of the French Revolution, and the nobleman of the chateau + with his fine features changed to stone, and the messenger at Tellson's + Bank gnawing the rust from his nails; all there are the creations of + genius, and these children of fiction will live as long as Imagination + spreads her many-colored wings in the mind of man. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of Pope? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Pope! Alexander Pope, the word-carpenter, a mechanical + poet, or stay—rather a "digital poet;" that fits him best—one + of those fellows who counts his fingers to see that his verse is in + perfect rhythm. His "Essay on Man" strikes me as being particularly + defective. For instance: + </p> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + "All discord, harmony not understood, + All partial evil, universal good," +</pre> + <p> + from the first epistle of his "Essay on Man." Anything that is evil cannot + by any means be good, and anything partial cannot be universal. + </p> + <p> + We see in libraries ponderous tomes labeled "Burke's Speeches." No person + ever seems to read them, but he is now regarded as being in his day a + great speaker, because now no one has pluck enough to read his speeches. + Why, for thirty years Burke was known in Parliament as the "Dinner Bell"—whenever + he rose to speak, everybody went to dinner. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Evening Express</i>, Buffalo, New York, October 6, 1892. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0102" id="link0102"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + WOMAN IN POLITICS. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the influence of women in politics? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think the influence of women is always good in politics, + as in everything else. I think it the duty of every woman to ascertain + what she can in regard to her country, including its history, laws and + customs. Woman above all others is a teacher. She, above all others, + determines the character of children; that is to say, of men and women. + </p> + <p> + There is not the slightest danger of women becoming too intellectual or + knowing too much. Neither is there any danger of men knowing too much. At + least, I know of no men who are in immediate peril from that source. I am + a firm believer in the equal rights of human beings, and no matter what I + think as to what woman should or should not do, she has the same right to + decide for herself that I have to decide for myself. If women wish to + vote, if they wish to take part in political matters, if they wish to run + for office, I shall do nothing to interfere with their rights. I most + cheerfully admit that my political rights are only equal to theirs. + </p> + <p> + There was a time when physical force or brute strength gave pre- eminence. + The savage chief occupied his position by virtue of his muscle, of his + courage, on account of the facility with which he wielded a club. As long + as nations depend simply upon brute force, the man, in time of war, is, of + necessity, of more importance to the nation than woman, and as the dispute + is to be settled by strength, by force, those who have the strength and + force naturally settle it. As the world becomes civilized, intelligence + slowly takes the place of force, conscience restrains muscle, reason + enters the arena, and the gladiator retires. + </p> + <p> + A little while ago the literature of the world was produced by men, and + men were not only the writers, but the readers. At that time the novels + were coarse and vulgar. Now the readers of fiction are women, and they + demand that which they can read, and the result is that women have become + great writers. The women have changed our literature, and the change has + been good. + </p> + <p> + In every field where woman has become a competitor of man she has either + become, or given evidence that she is to become, his equal. My own opinion + is that woman is naturally the equal of man and that in time, that is to + say, when she has had the opportunity and the training, she will produce + in the world of art as great pictures, as great statues, and in the world + of literature as great books, dramas and poems as man has produced or will + produce. + </p> + <p> + There is nothing very hard to understand in the politics of a country. The + general principles are for the most part simple. It is only in the + application that the complexity arises, and woman, I think, by nature, is + as well fitted to understand these things as man. In short, I have no + prejudice on this subject. At first, women will be more conservative than + men; and this is natural. Women have, through many generations, acquired + the habit of submission, of acquiescence. They have practiced what may be + called the slave virtues—obedience, humility—so that some time + will be required for them to become accustomed to the new order of things, + to the exercise of greater freedom, acting in accordance with perceived + obligation, independently of authority. + </p> + <p> + So I say equal rights, equal education, equal advantages. I hope that + woman will not continue to be the serf of superstition; that she will not + be the support of the church and priest; that she will not stand for the + conservation of superstition, but that in the east of her mind the sun of + progress will rise. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. In your lecture on Voltaire you made a remark about the + government of ministers, and you stated that if the ministers of the city + of New York had to power to make the laws most people would prefer to live + in a well regulated penitentiary. What do you mean by this? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Well, as a rule, ministers are quite severe. They have + little patience with human failures. They are taught, and they believe and + they teach, that man is absolutely master of his own fate. Besides, they + are believers in the inspiration of the Scriptures, and the laws of the + Old Testament are exceedingly severe. Nearly every offence was punished by + death. Every offence was regarded as treason against Jehovah. + </p> + <p> + In the Pentateuch there is no pity. If a man committed some offence + justice was not satisfied with his punishment, but proceeded to destroy + his wife and children. Jehovah seemed to think that crime was in the + blood; that it was not sufficient to kill the criminal, but to prevent + future crimes you should kill his wife and babes. The reading of the Old + Testament is calculated to harden the heart, to drive the angel of pity + from the breast, and to make man a religious savage. The clergy, as a + rule, do not take a broad and liberal view of things. They judge every + offence by what they consider would be the result if everybody committed + the same offence. They do not understand that even vice creates + obstructions for itself, and that there is something in the nature of + crime the tendency of which is to defeat crime, and I might add in this + place that the same seems to be true of excessive virtue. As a rule, the + clergy clamor with great zeal for the execution of cruel laws. + </p> + <p> + Let me give an instance in point: In the time of George III., in England, + there were two hundred and twenty-three offences punishable with death. + From time to time this cruel code was changed by Act of Parliament, yet no + bishop sitting in the House of Lords ever voted in favor of any one of + these measures. The bishops always voted for death, for blood, against + mercy and against the repeal of capital punishment. During all these years + there were some twenty thousand or more of the established clergy, and + yet, according to John Bright, no voice was ever raised in any English + pulpit against the infamous criminal code. + </p> + <p> + Another thing: The orthodox clergy teach that man is totally depraved; + that his inclination is evil; that his tendency is toward the Devil. + Starting from this as a foundation, of course every clergyman believes + every bad thing said of everybody else. So, when some man is charged with + a crime, the clergyman taking into consideration the fact that the man is + totally depraved, takes it for granted that he must be guilty. I am not + saying this for the purpose of exciting prejudice against the clergy. I am + simply showing what is the natural result of a certain creed, of a belief + in universal depravity, or a belief in the power and influence of a + personal Devil. If the clergy could have their own way they would endeavor + to reform the world by law. They would re-enact the old statutes of the + Puritans. Joy would be a crime. Love would be an offence. Every man with a + smile on his face would be suspected, and a dimple in the cheek would be a + demonstration of depravity. + </p> + <p> + In the trial of a cause it is natural for a clergyman to start with the + proposition, "The defendant is guilty;" and then he says to himself, "Let + him prove himself innocent." The man who has not been poisoned with the + creed starts out with the proposition, "The defendant is innocent; let the + State prove that he is guilty." Consequently, I say that if I were + defending a man whom I knew to be innocent, I would not have a clergyman + on the jury if I could help it. + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York Advertiser</i>, December 24, 1893. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0103" id="link0103"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + SPIRITUALISM. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Have you investigated Spiritualism, and what has been + your experience? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. A few years ago I paid some attention to what is called + Spiritualism, and was present when quite mysterious things were supposed + to have happened. The most notable seance that I attended was given by + Slade, at which slate-writing was done. Two slates were fastened together, + with a pencil between them, and on opening the slates certain writing was + found. When the writing was done it was impossible to tell. So, I have + been present when it was claimed that certain dead people had again + clothed themselves in flesh and were again talking in the old way. In one + instance, I think, George Washington claimed to be present. On the same + evening Shakespeare put in an appearance. It was hard to recognize + Shakespeare from what the spirit said, still I was assured by the medium + that there was no mistake as to the identity. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Can you offer any explanation of the extraordinary + phenomena such as Henry J. Newton has had produced at his own house under + his own supervision? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In the first place, I don't believe that anything such as + you describe has ever happened. I do not believe that a medium ever passed + into and out of a triple-locked iron cage. Neither do I believe that any + spirits were able to throw shoes and wraps out of the cage; neither do I + believe that any apparitions ever rose from the floor, or that anything + you relate has ever happened. The best explanation I can give of these + wonderful occurrences is the following: A little boy and girl were + standing in a doorway holding hands. A gentleman passing, stopped for a + moment and said to the little girl: "What relation is the little boy to + you?" and she replied, "We had the same father and we had the same mother, + but I am not his sister and he is not my brother." This at first seemed to + be quite a puzzle, but it was exceedingly plain when the answer was known: + The little girl lied. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Have you had any experience with spirit photography, + spirit physicians, or spirit lawyers? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I was shown at one time several pictures said to be the + photographs of living persons surrounded by the photographs of spirits. I + examined them very closely, and I found evidence in the photographs + themselves that they were spurious. I took it for granted that light is + the same everywhere, and that it obeys the angle of incidence in all + worlds and at all times. In looking at the spirit photographs I found, for + instance, that in the photograph of the living person the shadows fell to + the right, and that in the photographs of the ghosts, or spirits, supposed + to have been surrounding the living person at the time the picture was + taken, the shadows did not fall in the same direction, sometimes in the + opposite direction, never at the same angle even when the general + direction was the same. This demonstrated that the photographs of the + spirits and of the living persons were not taken at the same time. So much + for photographs. + </p> + <p> + I have had no experience with spirit physicians. I was once told by a + lawyer who came to employ me in a will case, that a certain person had + made a will giving a large amount of money for the purpose of spreading + the gospel of Spiritualism, but that the will had been lost and than an + effort was then being made to find it, and they wished me to take certain + action pending the search, and wanted my assistance. I said to him: "If + Spiritualism be true, why not ask the man who made the will what it was + and also what has become of it. If you can find that out from the + departed, I will gladly take a retainer in the case; otherwise, I must + decline." I have had no other experience with the lawyers. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. If you were to witness phenomena that seemed inexplicable + by natural laws, would you be inclined to favor Spiritualism? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I would not. If I should witness phenomena that I could not + explain, I would leave the phenomena unexplained. I would not explain them + because I did not understand them, and say they were or are produced by + spirits. That is no explanation, and, after admitting that we do not know + and that we cannot explain, why should we proceed to explain? I have seen + Mr. Kellar do things for which I cannot account. Why should I say that he + has the assistance of spirits? All I have a right to say is that I know + nothing about how he does them. So I am compelled to say with regard to + many spiritualistic feats, that I am ignorant of the ways and means. At + the same time, I do not believe that there is anything supernatural in the + universe. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of Spiritualism and Spiritualists? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think the Spiritualism of the present day is certainly in + advance of the Spiritualism of several centuries ago. Persons who now deny + Spiritualism and hold it in utter contempt insist that some eighteen or + nineteen centuries ago it had possession of the world; that miracles were + of daily occurrence; that demons, devils, fiends, took possession of human + beings, lived in their bodies, dominated their minds. They believe, too, + that devils took possession of the bodies of animals. They also insist + that a wish could multiply fish. And, curiously enough, the Spiritualists + of our time have but little confidence in the phenomena of eighteen + hundred years ago; and, curiously enough, those who believe in the + Spiritualism of eighteen hundred years ago deny the Spiritualism of + to-day. I think the Spiritualists of to-day have far more evidence of + their phenomena than those who believe in the wonderful things of eighteen + centuries ago. The Spiritualists of to-day have living witnesses, which is + something. I know a great many Spiritualists that are exceedingly good + people, and are doing what they can to make the world better. But I think + they are mistaken. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you believe in spirit entities, whether manifestible + or not? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I believe there is such a thing as matter. I believe there + is a something called force. The difference between force and matter I do + not know. So there is something called consciousness. Whether we call + consciousness an entity or not makes no difference as to what it really + is. There is something that hears, sees and feels, a something that takes + cognizance of what happens in what we call the outward world. No matter + whether we call this something matter or spirit, it is something that we + do not know, to say the least of it, all about. We cannot understand what + matter is. It defies us, and defies definitions. So, with what we call + spirit, we are in utter ignorance of what it is. We have some little + conception of what we mean by it, and of what others mean, but as to what + it really is no one knows. It makes no difference whether we call + ourselves Materialists or Spiritualists, we believe in all there is, no + matter what you call it. If we call it all matter, then we believe that + matter can think and hope and dream. If we call it all spirit, then we + believe that spirit has force, that it offers a resistance; in other + words, that it is, in one of its aspects, what we call matter. I cannot + believe that everything can be accounted for by motion or by what we call + force, because there is something that recognizes force. There is + something that compares, that thinks, that remembers; there is something + that suffers and enjoys; there is something that each one calls himself or + herself, that is inexplicable to himself or herself, and it makes no + difference whether we call this something mind or soul, effect or entity, + it still eludes us, and all the words we have coined for the purpose of + expressing our knowledge of this something, after all, express only our + desire to know, and our efforts to ascertain. It may be that if we would + ask some minister, some one who has studied theology, he would give us a + perfect definition. The scientists know nothing about it, and I know of no + one who does, unless it be a theologian. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Globe-Democrat</i>, St. Louis, Mo., 1893. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0104" id="link0104"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + PLAYS AND PLAYERS. + </h2> + <p> + <a name="image-0001" id="image-0001"> + <!-- IMG --></a> <img src="images/theater.jpg" height="767" width="1248" + alt=" Chatham Street Theater " /> + </p> + <p> + <i>Chatham Street Theater, New York City, N. Y., where Robert G. Ingersoll + was baptized in 1836 by his father, the Rev. John Ingersoll, who + temporarily preached at the theatre, his church having been destroyed by + fire</i>. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What place does the theatre hold among the arts? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Nearly all the arts unite in the theatre, and it is the + result of the best, the highest, the most artistic, that man can do. + </p> + <p> + In the first place, there must be the dramatic poet. Dramatic poetry is + the subtlest, profoundest, the most intellectual, the most passionate and + artistic of all. Then the stage must be prepared, and there is work for + the architect, the painter and sculptor. Then the actors appear, and they + must be gifted with imagination, with a high order of intelligence; they + must have sympathies quick and deep, natures capable of the greatest + emotion, dominated by passion. They must have impressive presence, and all + that is manly should meet and unite in the actor; all that is womanly, + tender, intense and admirable should be lavishly bestowed on the actress. + In addition to all this, actors should have the art of being natural. + </p> + <p> + Let me explain what I mean by being natural. When I say that an actor is + natural, I mean that he appears to act in accordance with his ideal, in + accordance with his nature, and that he is not an imitator or a copyist—that + he is not made up of shreds and patches taken from others, but that all he + does flows from interior fountains and is consistent with his own nature, + all having in a marked degree the highest characteristics of the man. That + is what I mean by being natural. + </p> + <p> + The great actor must be acquainted with the heart, must know the motives, + ends, objects and desires that control the thoughts and acts of men. He + must be familiar with many people, including the lowest and the highest, + so that he may give to others, clothed with flesh and blood, the + characters born of the poet's brain. The great actor must know the + relations that exist between passion and voice, gesture and emphasis, + expression and pose. He must speak not only with his voice, but with his + body. The great actor must be master of many arts. + </p> + <p> + Then comes the musician. The theatre has always been the home of music, + and this music must be appropriate; must, or should, express or supplement + what happens on the stage; should furnish rest and balm for minds + overwrought with tragic deeds. To produce a great play, and put it + worthily upon the stage, involves most arts, many sciences and nearly all + that is artistic, poetic and dramatic in the mind of man. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Should the drama teach lessons and discuss social + problems, or should it give simply intellectual pleasure and furnish + amusement? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Every great play teaches many lessons and touches nearly + all social problems. But the great play does this by indirection. Every + beautiful thought is a teacher; every noble line speaks to the brain and + heart. Beauty, proportion, melody suggest moral beauty, proportion in + conduct and melody in life. In a great play the relations of the various + characters, their objects, the means adopted for their accomplishment, + must suggest, and in a certain sense solve or throw light on many social + problems, so that the drama teaches lessons, discusses social problems and + gives intellectual pleasure. + </p> + <p> + The stage should not be dogmatic; neither should its object be directly to + enforce a moral. The great thing for the drama to do, and the great thing + it has done, and is doing, is to cultivate the imagination. This is of the + utmost importance. The civilization of man depends upon the development, + not only of the intellect, but of the imagination. Most crimes of violence + are committed by people who are destitute of imagination. People without + imagination make most of the cruel and infamous creeds. They were the + persecutors and destroyers of their fellow-men. By cultivating the + imagination, the stage becomes one of the greatest teachers. It produces + the climate in which the better feelings grow; it is the home of the + ideal. All beautiful things tend to the civilization of man. The great + statues plead for proportion in life, the great symphonies suggest the + melody of conduct, and the great plays cultivate the heart and brain. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the French drama as compared with + the English, morally and artistically considered? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The modern French drama, so far as I am acquainted with it, + is a disease. It deals with the abnormal. It is fashioned after Balzac. It + exhibits moral tumors, mental cancers and all kinds of abnormal fungi,—excrescences. + Everything is stood on its head; virtue lives in the brothel; the good are + the really bad and the worst are, after all, the best. It portrays the + exceptional, and mistakes the scum-covered bayou for the great river. The + French dramatists seem to think that the ceremony of marriage sows the + seed of vice. They are always conveying the idea that the virtuous are + uninteresting, rather stupid, without sense and spirit enough to take + advantage of their privilege. Between the greatest French plays and the + greatest English plays of course there is no comparison. If a Frenchman + had written the plays of Shakespeare, Desdemona would have been guilty, + Isabella would have ransomed her brother at the Duke's price, Juliet would + have married the County Paris, run away from him, and joined Romeo in + Mantua, and Miranda would have listened coquettishly to the words of + Caliban. The French are exceedingly artistic. They understand stage + effects, love the climax, delight in surprises, especially in the + improbable; but their dramatists lack sympathy and breadth of treatment. + They are provincial. With them France is the world. They know little of + other countries. Their plays do not touch the universal. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What are your feelings in reference to idealism on the + stage? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The stage ought to be the home of the ideal; in a word, the + imagination should have full sway. The great dramatist is a creator; he is + the sovereign, and governs his own world. The realist is only a copyist. + He does not need genius. All he wants is industry and the trick of + imitation. On the stage, the real should be idealized, the ordinary should + be transfigured; that is, the deeper meaning of things should be given. As + we make music of common air, and statues of stone, so the great dramatist + should make life burst into blossom on the stage. A lot of words, facts, + odds and ends divided into acts and scenes do not make a play. These + things are like old pieces of broken iron that need the heat of the + furnace so that they may be moulded into shape. Genius is that furnace, + and in its heat and glow and flame these pieces, these fragments, become + molten and are cast into noble and heroic forms. Realism degrades and + impoverishes the stage. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What attributes should an actor have to be really great? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Intelligence, imagination, presence; a mobile and + impressive face; a body that lends itself to every mood in appropriate + pose, one that is oak or willow, at will; self-possession; absolute ease; + a voice capable of giving every shade of meaning and feeling, an intuitive + knowledge or perception of proportion, and above all, the actor should be + so sincere that he loses himself in the character he portrays. Such an + actor will grow intellectually and morally. The great actor should strive + to satisfy himself—to reach his own ideal. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you enjoy Shakespeare more in the library than + Shakespeare interpreted by actors now on the boards? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I enjoy Shakespeare everywhere. I think it would give me + pleasure to hear those wonderful lines spoken even by phonographs. But + Shakespeare is greatest and best when grandly put upon the stage. There + you know the connection, the relation, the circumstances, and these bring + out the appropriateness and the perfect meaning of the text. Nobody in + this country now thinks of Hamlet without thinking of Booth. For this + generation at least, Booth is Hamlet. It is impossible for me to read the + words of Sir Toby without seeing the face of W. F. Owen. Brutus is + Davenport, Cassius is Lawrence Barrett, and Lear will be associated always + in my mind with Edwin Forrest. Lady Macbeth is to me Adelaide Ristori, the + greatest actress I ever saw. If I understood music perfectly, I would much + rather hear Seidl's orchestra play "Tristan," or hear Remenyi's matchless + rendition of Schubert's "Ave Maria," than to read the notes. + </p> + <p> + Most people love the theatre. Everything about it from stage to gallery + attracts and fascinates. The mysterious realm, behind the scenes, from + which emerge kings and clowns, villains and fools, heroes and lovers, and + in which they disappear, is still a fairyland. As long as man is man he + will enjoy the love and laughter, the tears and rapture of the mimic + world. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is it because we lack men of genius or because our life + is too material that no truly great American plays have been written? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. No great play has been written since Shakespeare; that is, + no play has been written equal to his. But there is the same reason for + that in all other countries, including England, that there is in this + country, and that reason is that Shakespeare has had no equal. + </p> + <p> + America has not failed because life in the Republic is too material. + Germany and France, and, in fact, all other nations, have failed in the + same way. In the sense in which I am speaking, Germany has produced no + great play. + </p> + <p> + In the dramatic world Shakespeare stands alone. Compared with him, even + the classic is childish. + </p> + <p> + There is plenty of material for plays. The Republic has lived a great play—a + great poem—a most marvelous drama. Here, on our soil, have happened + some of the greatest events in the history of the world. + </p> + <p> + All human passions have been and are in full play here, and here as + elsewhere, can be found the tragic, the comic, the beautiful, the poetic, + the tears, the smiles, the lamentations and the laughter that are the + necessary warp and woof with which to weave the living tapestries that we + call plays. + </p> + <p> + We are beginning. We have found that American plays must be American in + spirit. We are tired of imitations and adaptations. We want plays worthy + of the great Republic. Some good work has recently been done, giving great + hope for the future. Of course the realistic comes first; afterward the + ideal. But here in America, as in all other lands, love is the eternal + passion that will forever hold the stage. Around that everything else will + move. It is the sun. All other passions are secondary. Their orbits are + determined by the central force from which they receive their light and + meaning. + </p> + <p> + Love, however, must be kept pure. + </p> + <p> + The great dramatist is, of necessity, a believer in virtue, in honesty, in + courage and in the nobility of human nature. He must know that there are + men and women that even a God could not corrupt; such knowledge, such + feeling, is the foundation, and the only foundation, that can support the + splendid structure, the many pillared stories and the swelling dome of the + great drama. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The New York Dramatic Mirror</i>, December 26, 1891. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0105" id="link0105"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + WOMAN. + </h2> + <p> + It takes a hundred men to make an encampment, but one woman can make a + home. I not only admire woman as the most beautiful object ever created, + but I reverence her as the redeeming glory of humanity, the sanctuary of + all the virtues, the pledge of all perfect qualities of heart and head. It + is not just or right to lay the sins of men at the feet of women. It is + because women are so much better than men that their faults are considered + greater. + </p> + <p> + The one thing in this world that is constant, the one peak that rises + above all clouds, the one window in which the light forever burns, the one + star that darkness cannot quench, is woman's love. It rises to the + greatest heights, it sinks to the lowest depths, it forgives the most + cruel injuries. It is perennial of life, and grows in every climate. + Neither coldness nor neglect, harshness nor cruelty, can extinguish it. A + woman's love is the perfume of the heart. + </p> + <p> + This is the real love that subdues the earth; the love that has wrought + all the miracles of art, that gives us music all the way from the cradle + song to the grand closing symphony that bears the soul away on wings of + fire. A love that is greater than power, sweeter than life and stronger + than death. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0106" id="link0106"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + STRIKES, EXPANSION AND OTHER SUBJECTS. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What have you to say in regard to the decision of Judge + Billings in New Orleans, that strikes which interfere with interstate + commerce, are illegal? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. As a rule, men have a right to quit work at any time unless + there is some provision to the contrary in their contracts. They have not + the right to prevent other men from taking their places. Of course I do + not mean by this that strikers may not use persuasion and argument to + prevent other men from filling their places. All blacklisting and refusing + to work with other men is illegal and punishable. Of course men may + conspire to quit work, but how is it to be proved? One man can quit, or + five hundred men can quit together, and nothing can prevent them. The + decisions of Judge Ricks and Judge Billings are an acknowledgment, at + least, of the principle of public control or regulation of railroads and + of commerce generally. The railroads, which run for private profit, are + public carriers, and the public has a vested interest in them as such. The + same principle applies to the commerce of the country and can be dealt + with by the courts in the same way. It is unlikely, however, that Judge + Billings' decision will have any lasting effect upon organized labor. Law + cannot be enforced against such vast numbers of people, especially when + they have the general sympathy. Nearly all strikes have been illegal, but + the numbers involved have made the courts powerless. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are you in favor of the annexation of Canada? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, if Canada is. We do not want that country unless that + country wants us. I do not believe it to the interests of Canada to remain + a province. Canada should either be an independent nation, or a part of a + nation. Now Canada is only a province—with no career—with + nothing to stimulate either patriotism or great effort. Yes, I hope that + Canada will be annexed. + </p> + <p> + By all means annex the Sandwich Islands, too. I believe in territorial + expansion. A prosperous farmer wants the land next him, and a prosperous + nation ought to grow. I believe that we ought to hold the key to the + Pacific and its commerce. We want to be prepared at all points to defend + our interests from the greed and power of England. + </p> + <p> + We are going to have a navy, and we want that navy to be of use in + protecting our interests the world over. And we want interests to protect. + </p> + <p> + It is a splendid feeling—this feeling of growth. By the annexation + of these islands we open new avenues to American adventure, and the + tendency is to make our country greater and stronger. The West Indian + Islands ought to be ours, and some day our flag will float there. This + country must not stop growing. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is the spirit of patriotism declining in America? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. There has been no decline in the spirit of American + patriotism; in fact, it has increased rather then otherwise as the nation + has grown older, stronger, more prosperous, more glorious. If there were + occasion to demonstrate the truth of this statement it would be quickly + demonstrated. Let an attack be made upon the American flag, and you will + very quickly find out how genuine is the patriotic spirit of Americans. + </p> + <p> + I do not think either that there has been a decline in the celebration of + the Fourth of July. The day is probably not celebrated with as much + burning of gunpowder and shooting of fire crackers in the large cities as + formerly, but it is celebrated with as much enthusiasm as ever all through + the West, and the feeling of rejoicing over the anniversary of the day is + as great and strong as ever. The people are tired of celebrating with a + great noise and I am glad of it. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the Congress of Religions, to be + held in Chicago during the World's Fair? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It will do good, if they will honestly compare their creeds + so that each one can see just how foolish all the rest are. They ought to + compare their sacred books, and their miracles, and their mythologies, and + if they do so they will probably see that ignorance is the mother of them + all. Let them have a Congress, by all means, and let them show how priests + live on the labor of those they deceive. It will do good. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think that Cleveland's course as to appointments + has strengthened him with the people? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Patronage is a two-edged sword with very little handle. It + takes an exceedingly clever President to strengthen himself by its + exercise. When a man is running for President the twenty men in every town + who expect to be made postmaster are for him heart and soul. Only one can + get the office, and the nineteen who do not, feel outraged, and the lucky + one is mad on account of the delay. So twenty friends are lost with one + place. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is the Age of Chivalry dead? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The "Age of Chivalry" never existed except in the + imagination. The Age of Chivalry was the age of cowardice and crime. + </p> + <p> + There is more chivalry to-day than ever. Men have a better, a clearer idea + of justice, and pay their debts better, and treat their wives and children + better than ever before. The higher and better qualities of the soul have + more to do with the average life. To-day men have greater admiration and + respect for women, greater regard for the social and domestic obligations + than their fathers had. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What led you to begin lecturing on your present subject, + and what was your first lecture? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. My first lecture was entitled "Progress." I began lecturing + because I thought the creeds of the orthodox church false and horrible, + and because I thought the Bible cruel and absurd, and because I like + intellectual liberty. + </p> + <p> + —New York, May 5, 1893. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0107" id="link0107"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + SUNDAY A DAY OF PLEASURE. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the religious spirit that seeks to + regulate by legislation the manner in which the people of this country + shall spend their Sundays? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The church is not willing to stand alone, not willing to + base its influence on reason and on the character of its members. It seeks + the aid of the State. The cross is in partnership with the sword. People + should spend Sundays as they do other days; that is to say, as they + please. No one has the right to do anything on Monday that interferes with + the rights of his neighbors, and everyone has the right to do anything he + pleases on Sunday that does not interfere with the rights of his + neighbors. Sunday is a day of rest, not of religion. We are under + obligation to do right on all days. + </p> + <p> + Nothing can be more absurd than the idea that any particular space of time + is sacred. Everything in nature goes on the same on Sunday as on other + days, and if beyond nature there be a God, then God works on Sunday as he + does on all other days. There is no rest in nature. There is perpetual + activity in every possible direction. The old idea that God made the world + and then rested, is idiotic. There were two reasons given to the Hebrews + for keeping the Sabbath —one because Jehovah rested on that day, the + other because the Hebrews were brought out of Egypt. The first reason, we + know, is false, and the second reason is good only for the Hebrews. + According to the Bible, Sunday, or rather the Sabbath, was not for the + world, but for the Hebrews, and the Hebrews alone. Our Sunday is pagan and + is the day of the sun, as Monday is the day of the moon. All our day names + are pagan. I am opposed to all Sunday legislation. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Why should Sunday be observed otherwise than as a day of + recreation? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Sunday is a day of recreation, or should be; a day for the + laboring man to rest, a day to visit museums and libraries, a day to look + at pictures, a day to get acquainted with your wife and children, a day + for poetry and art, a day on which to read old letters and to meet + friends, a day to cultivate the amenities of life, a day for those who + live in tenements to feel the soft grass beneath their feet. In short, + Sunday should be a day of joy. The church endeavors to fill it with gloom + and sadness, with stupid sermons and dyspeptic theology. + </p> + <p> + Nothing could be more cowardly than the effort to compel the observance of + the Sabbath by law. We of America have outgrown the childishness of the + last century; we laugh at the superstitions of our fathers. We have made + up our minds to be as happy as we can be, knowing that the way to be happy + is to make others so, that the time to be happy is now, whether that now + is Sunday or any other day in the week. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Under a Federal Constitution guaranteeing civil and + religious liberty, are the so-called "Blue Laws" constitutional? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. No, they are not. But the probability is that the Supreme + Courts of most of the States would decide the other way. And yet all these + laws are clearly contrary to the spirit of the Federal Constitution and + the constitutions of most of the States. + </p> + <p> + I hope to live until all these foolish laws are repealed and until we are + in the highest and noblest sense a free people. And by free I mean each + having the right to do anything that does not interfere with the rights or + with the happiness of another. I want to see the time when we live for + this world and when all shall endeavor to increase, by education, by + reason, and by persuasion, the sum of human happiness. + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York Times</i>, July 21, 1893. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0108" id="link0108"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE PARLIAMENT OF RELIGIONS. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. The Parliament of Religions was called with a view to + discussing the great religions of the world on the broad platform of + tolerance. Supposing this to have been accomplished, what effect is it + likely to have on the future of creeds? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It was a good thing to get the representatives of all + creeds to meet and tell their beliefs. The tendency, I think, is to do + away with prejudice, with provincialism, with egotism. We know that the + difference between the great religions, so far as belief is concerned, + amounts to but little. Their gods have different names, but in other + respects they differ but little. They are all cruel and ignorant. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think likely that the time is coming when all the + religions of the world will be treated with the liberality that is now + characterizing the attitude of one sect toward another in Christendom? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, because I think that all religions will be found to be + of equal authority, and because I believe that the supernatural will be + discarded and that man will give up his vain and useless efforts to get + back of nature—to answer the questions of whence and whither? As a + matter of fact, the various sects do not love one another. The keenest + hatred is religious hatred. The most malicious malice is found in the + hearts of those who love their enemies. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Bishop Newman, in replying to a learned Buddhist at the + Parliament of Religions, said that Buddhism had given to the world no + helpful literature, no social system, and no heroic virtues. Is this true? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Bishop Newman is a very prejudiced man. Probably he got his + information from the missionaries. Buddha was undoubtedly a great teacher. + Long before Christ lived Buddha taught the brotherhood of man. He said + that intelligence was the only lever capable of raising mankind. His + followers, to say the least of them, are as good as the followers of + Christ. Bishop Newman is a Methodist—a follower of John Wesley—and + he has the prejudices of the sect to which he belongs. We must remember + that all prejudices are honest. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is Christian society, or rather society in Christian + countries, cursed with fewer robbers, assassins, and thieves, + proportionately, then countries where "heathen" religions predominate? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think not. I do not believe that there are more + lynchings, more mob murders in India or Turkey or Persia than in some + Christian States of the great Republic. Neither will you find more train + robbers, more forgers, more thieves in heathen lands than in Christian + countries. Here the jails are full, the penitentiaries are crowded, and + the hangman is busy. All over Christendom, as many assert, crime is on the + increase, going hand in hand with poverty. The truth is, that some of the + wisest and best men are filled with apprehension for the future, but I + believe in the race and have confidence in man. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How can society be so reconstructed that all this + horrible suffering, resultant from poverty and its natural associate, + crime, may be abolished, or at least reduced to a minimum? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In the first place we should stop supporting the useless. + The burden of superstition should be taken from the shoulders of industry. + In the next place men should stop bowing to wealth instead of worth. Men + should be judged by what they do, by what they are, instead of by the + property they have. Only those able to raise and educate children should + have them. Children should be better born—better educated. The + process of regeneration will be slow, but it will be sure. The religion of + our day is supported by the worst, by the most dangerous people in + society. I do not allude to murderers or burglars, or even to the little + thieves. I mean those who debauch courts and legislatures and elections— + those who make millions by legal fraud. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the Theosophists? Are they sincere—have + they any real basis for their psychological theories? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The Theosophists may be sincere. I do not know. But I am + perfectly satisfied that their theories are without any foundation in fact—that + their doctrines are as unreal as their "astral bodies," and as absurd as a + contradiction in mathematics. We have had vagaries and theories enough. We + need the religion of the real, the faith that rests on fact. Let us turn + our attention to this world—the world in which we live. + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York Herald</i>, September, 1893. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0109" id="link0109"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + CLEVELAND'S HAWAIIAN POLICY. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Colonel, what do you think about Mr. Cleveland's Hawaiian + policy? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think it exceedingly laughable and a little dishonest + —with the further fault that it is wholly unconstitutional. This is + not a one-man Government, and while Liliuokalani may be Queen, Cleveland + is certainly not a king. The worst thing about the whole matter, as it + appears to me, is the bad faith that was shown by Mr. Cleveland—the + double-dealing. He sent Mr. Willis as Minister to the Provisional + Government and by that act admitted the existence, and the rightful + existence, of the Provisional Government of the Sandwich Islands. + </p> + <p> + When Mr. Willis started he gave him two letters. One was addressed to + Dole, President of the Provisional Government, in which he addressed Dole + as "Great and good friend," and at the close, being a devout Christian, he + asked "God to take care of Dole." This was the first letter. The letter of + one President to another; of one friend to another. The second letter was + addressed to Mr. Willis, in which Mr. Willis was told to upset Dole at the + first opportunity and put the deposed Queen back on her throne. This may + be diplomacy, but it is no kin to honesty. + </p> + <p> + In my judgment, it is the worst thing connected with the Hawaiian affair. + What must "the great and good" Dole think of our great and good President? + What must other nations think when they read the two letters and mentally + exclaim, "Look upon this and then upon that?" I think Mr. Cleveland has + acted arrogantly, foolishly, and unfairly. I am in favor of obtaining the + Sandwich Islands—of course by fair means. I favor this policy + because I want my country to become a power in the Pacific. All my life I + have wanted this country to own the West Indies, the Bermudas, the Bahamas + and Barbadoes. They are our islands. They belong to this continent, and + for any other nation to take them or claim them was, and is, a piece of + impertinence and impudence. + </p> + <p> + So I would like to see the Sandwich Islands annexed to the United States. + They are a good way from San Francisco and our Western shore, but they are + nearer to us than they are to any other nation. I think they would be of + great importance. They would tend to increase the Asiatic trade, and they + certainly would be important in case of war. We should have fortifications + on those islands that no naval power could take. + </p> + <p> + Some objection has been made on the ground that under our system the + people of those islands would have to be represented in Congress. I say + yes, represented by a delegate until the islands become a real part of the + country, and by that time, there would be several hundred thousand + Americans living there, capable of sending over respectable members of + Congress. + </p> + <p> + Now, I think that Mr. Cleveland has made a very great mistake. First, I + think he was mistaken as to the facts in the Sandwich Islands; second, as + to the Constitution of the United States, and thirdly, as to the powers of + the President of the United States. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. In your experience as a lawyer what was the most unique + case in which you were ever engaged? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The Star Route trial. Every paper in the country, but one, + was against the defence, and that one was a little sheet owned by one of + the defendants. I received a note from a man living in a little town in + Ohio criticizing me for defending the accused. In reply I wrote that I + supposed he was a sensible man and that he, of course, knew what he was + talking about when he said the accused were guilty; that the Government + needed just such men as he, and that he should come to the trial at once + and testify. The man wrote back: "Dear Colonel: I am a —— + fool." + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Will the church and the stage ever work together for the + betterment of the world, and what is the province of each? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The church and stage will never work together. The pulpit + pretends that fiction is fact. The stage pretends that fiction is fact. + The pulpit pretence is dishonest—that of the stage is sincere. The + actor is true to art, and honestly pretends to be what he is not. The + actor is natural, if he is great, and in this naturalness is his truth and + his sincerity. The pulpit is unnatural, and for that reason untrue. The + pulpit is for another world, the stage for this. The stage is good because + it is natural, because it portrays real and actual life; because "it holds + the mirror up to nature." The pulpit is weak because it too often + belittles and demeans this life; because it slanders and calumniates the + natural and is the enemy of joy. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Inter-Ocean</i>, Chicago, February 2, 1894. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0110" id="link0110"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + ORATORS AND ORATORY.* + </h2> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + [* It was at his own law office in New York City that I had + my talk with that very notable American, Col. Robert G. + Ingersoll. "Bob" Ingersoll, Americans call him + affectionately; in a company of friends it is "The Colonel." + + A more interesting personality it would be hard to find, and + those who know even a little of him will tell you that a + bigger-hearted man probably does not live. Suppose a well- + knit frame, grown stouter than it once was, and a fine, + strong face, with a vivid gleam in the eyes, a deep, + uncommonly musical voice, clear cut, decisive, and a manner + entirely delightful, yet tinged with a certain reserve. + Introduce a smoking cigar, the smoke rising in little curls + and billows, then imagine a rugged sort of picturesqueness + in dress, and you get, not by any means the man, but, still, + some notion of "Bob" Ingersoll. + + Colonel Ingersoll stands at the front of American orators. + The natural thing, therefore, was that I should ask him—a + master in the art—about oratory. What he said I shall give + in his own words precisely as I took them down from his + lips, for in the case of such a good commander of the old + English tongue that is of some importance. But the + wonderful limpidness, the charming pellucidness of Ingersoll + can only be adequately understood when you also have the + finishing touch of his facile voice.] +</pre> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I should be glad if you would tell me what you think the + differences are between English and American oratory? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. There is no difference between the real English and the + real American orator. Oratory is the same the world over. The man who + thinks on his feet, who has the pose of passion, the face that thought + illumines, a voice in harmony with the ideals expressed, who has logic + like a column and poetry like a vine, who transfigures the common, dresses + the ideals of the people in purple and fine linen, who has the art of + finding the best and noblest in his hearers, and who in a thousand ways + creates the climate in which the best grows and flourishes and bursts into + blossom—that man is an orator, no matter of what time, of what + country. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. If you were to compare individual English and American + orators—recent or living orators in particular—what would you + say? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have never heard any of the great English speakers, and + consequently can pass no judgment as to their merits, except such as + depends on reading. I think, however, the finest paragraph ever uttered in + Great Britain was by Curran in his defence of Rowan. I have never read one + of Mr. Gladstone's speeches, only fragments. I think he lacks logic. + Bright was a great speaker, but he lacked imagination and the creative + faculty. Disræli spoke for the clubs, and his speeches were + artificial. We have had several fine speakers in America. I think that + Thomas Corwin stands at the top of the natural orators. Sergeant S. + Prentiss, the lawyer, was a very great talker; Henry Ward Beecher was the + greatest orator that the pulpit has produced. Theodore Parker was a great + orator. In this country, however, probably Daniel Webster occupies the + highest place in general esteem. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Which would you say are the better orators, speaking + generally, the American people or the English people? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think Americans are, on the average, better talkers than + the English. I think England has produced the greatest literature of the + world; but I do not think England has produced the greatest orators of the + world. I know of no English orator equal to Webster or Corwin or Beecher. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Would you mind telling me how it was you came to be a + public speaker, a lecturer, an orator? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. We call this America of ours free, and yet I found it was + very far from free. Our writers and our speakers declared that here in + America church and state were divorced. I found this to be untrue. I found + that the church was supported by the state in many ways, that people who + failed to believe certain portions of the creeds were not allowed to + testify in courts or to hold office. It occurred to me that some one ought + to do something toward making this country intellectually free, and after + a while I thought that I might as well endeavor to do this as wait for + another. This is the way in which I came to make speeches; it was an + action in favor of liberty. I have said things because I wanted to say + them, and because I thought they ought to be said. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Perhaps you will tell me your methods as a speaker, for + I'm sure it would be interesting to know them? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Sometimes, and frequently, I deliver a lecture several + times before it is written. I have it taken by a shorthand writer, and + afterward written out. At other times I have dictated a lecture, and + delivered it from manuscript. The course pursued depends on how I happen + to feel at the time. Sometimes I read a lecture, and sometimes I deliver + lectures without any notes—this, again, depending much on how I + happen to feel. So far as methods are concerned, everything should depend + on feeling. Attitude, gestures, voice, emphasis, should all be in accord + with and spring from feeling, from the inside. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is there any possibility of your coming to England, and, + I need hardly add, of your coming to speak? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have thought of going over to England, and I may do so. + There is an England in England for which I have the highest possible + admiration, the England of culture, of art, of principle. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Sketch</i>, London, Eng., March 21, 1894. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0111" id="link0111"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + CATHOLICISM AND PROTESTANTISM. THE POPE, THE A. P. A., AGNOSTICISM + </h2> + <p> + AND THE CHURCH. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Which do you regard as the better, Catholicism or + Protestantism? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Protestantism is better than Catholicism because there is + less of it. Protestantism does not teach that a monk is better than a + husband and father, that a nun is holier than a mother. Protestants do not + believe in the confessional. Neither do they pretend that priests can + forgive sins. Protestantism has fewer ceremonies and less opera bouffe, + clothes, caps, tiaras, mitres, crooks and holy toys. Catholics have an + infallible man—an old Italian. Protestants have an infallible book, + written by Hebrews before they were civilized. The infallible man is + generally wrong, and the infallible book is filled with mistakes and + contradictions. Catholics and Protestants are both enemies of intellectual + freedom —of real education, but both are opposed to education enough + to make free men and women. + </p> + <p> + Between the Catholics and Protestants there has been about as much + difference as there is between crocodiles and alligators. Both have done + the worst they could, both are as bad as they can be, and the world is + getting tired of both. The world is not going to choose either—both + are to be rejected. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are you willing to give your opinion of the Pope? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It may be that the Pope thinks he is infallible, but I + doubt it. He may think that he is the agent of God, but I guess not. He + may know more than other people, but if he does he has kept it to himself. + He does not seem satisfied with standing in the place and stead of God in + spiritual matters, but desires temporal power. He wishes to be Pope and + King. He imagines that he has the right to control the belief of all the + world; that he is the shepherd of all "sheep" and that the fleeces belong + to him. He thinks that in his keeping is the conscience of mankind. So he + imagines that his blessing is a great benefit to the faithful and that his + prayers can change the course of natural events. He is a strange mixture + of the serious and comical. He claims to represent God, and admits that he + is almost a prisoner. There is something pathetic in the condition of this + pontiff. When I think of him, I think of Lear on the heath, old, broken, + touched with insanity, and yet, in his own opinion, "every inch a king." + </p> + <p> + The Pope is a fragment, a remnant, a shred, a patch of ancient power and + glory. He is a survival of the unfittest, a souvenir of theocracy, a relic + of the supernatural. Of course he will have a few successors, and they + will become more and more comical, more and more helpless and impotent as + the world grows wise and free. I am not blaming the Pope. He was poisoned + at the breast of his mother. Superstition was mingled with her milk. He + was poisoned at school—taught to distrust his reason and to live by + faith. And so it may be that his mind was so twisted and tortured out of + shape that he now really believes that he is the infallible agent of an + infinite God. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are you in favor of the A. P. A.? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In this country I see no need of secret political + societies. I think it better to fight in the open field. I am a believer + in religious liberty, in allowing all sects to preach their doctrines and + to make as many converts as they can. As long as we have free speech and a + free press I think there is no danger of the country being ruled by any + church. The Catholics are much better than their creed, and the same can + be said of nearly all members of orthodox churches. A majority of American + Catholics think a great deal more of this country than they do of their + church. When they are in good health they are on our side. It is only when + they are very sick that they turn their eyes toward Rome. If they were in + the majority, of course, they would destroy all other churches and + imprison, torture and kill all Infidels. But they will never be in the + majority. They increase now only because Catholics come in from other + countries. In a few years that supply will cease, and then the Catholic + Church will grow weaker every day. The free secular school is the enemy of + priestcraft and superstition, and the people of this country will never + consent to the destruction of that institution. I want no man persecuted + on account of his religion. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. If there is no beatitude, or heaven, how do you account + for the continual struggle in every natural heart for its own betterment? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Man has many wants, and all his efforts are the children of + wants. If he wanted nothing he would do nothing. We civilize the savage by + increasing his wants, by cultivating his fancy, his appetites, his + desires. He is then willing to work to satisfy these new wants. Man always + tries to do things in the easiest way. His constant effort is to + accomplish more with less work. He invents a machine; then he improves it, + his idea being to make it perfect. He wishes to produce the best. So in + every department of effort and knowledge he seeks the highest success, and + he seeks it because it is for his own good here in this world. So he finds + that there is a relation between happiness and conduct, and he tries to + find out what he must do to produce the greatest enjoyment. This is the + basis of morality, of law and ethics. We are so constituted that we love + proportion, color, harmony. This is the artistic man. Morality is the + harmony and proportion of conduct— the music of life. Man + continually seeks to better his condition —not because he is + immortal—but because he is capable of grief and pain, because he + seeks for happiness. Man wishes to respect himself and to gain the respect + of others. The brain wants light, the heart wants love. Growth is natural. + The struggle to overcome temptation, to be good and noble, brave and + sincere, to reach, if possible, the perfect, is no evidence of the + immortality of the soul or of the existence of other worlds. Men live to + excel, to become distinguished, to enjoy, and so they strive, each in his + own way, to gain the ends desired. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you believe that the race is growing moral or immoral? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The world is growing better. There is more real liberty, + more thought, more intelligence than ever before. The world was never so + charitable or generous as now. We do not put honest debtors in prison, we + no longer believe in torture. Punishments are less severe. We place a + higher value on human life. We are far kinder to animals. To this, + however, there is one terrible exception. The vivisectors, those who cut, + torture, and mutilate in the name of science, disgrace our age. They + excite the horror and indignation of all good people. Leave out the + actions of those wretches, and animals are better treated than ever + before. So there is less beating of wives and whipping of children. The + whip in no longer found in the civilized home. Intelligent parents now + govern by kindness, love and reason. The standard of honor is higher than + ever. Contracts are more sacred, and men do nearer as they agree. Man has + more confidence in his fellow-man, and in the goodness of human nature. + Yes, the world is getting better, nobler and grander every day. We are + moving along the highway of progress on our way to the Eden of the future. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are the doctrines of Agnosticism gaining ground, and + what, in your opinion, will be the future of the church? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The Agnostic is intellectually honest. He knows the + limitations of his mind. He is convinced that the questions of origin and + destiny cannot be answered by man. He knows that he cannot answer these + questions, and he is candid enough to say so. The Agnostic has good mental + manners. He does not call belief or hope or wish, a demonstration. He + knows the difference between hope and belief—between belief and + knowledge—and he keeps these distinctions in his mind. He does not + say that a certain theory is true because he wishes it to be true. He + tries to go according to evidence, in harmony with facts, without regard + to his own desires or the wish of the public. He has the courage of his + convictions and the modesty of his ignorance. The theologian is his + opposite. He is certain and sure of the existence of things and beings and + worlds of which there is, and can be, no evidence. He relies on assertion, + and in all debate attacks the motive of his opponent instead of answering + his arguments. All savages know the origin and destiny of man. About other + things they know but little. The theologian is much the same. The Agnostic + has given up the hope of ascertaining the nature of the "First Cause"—the + hope of ascertaining whether or not there was a "First Cause." He admits + that he does not know whether or not there is an infinite Being. He admits + that these questions cannot be answered, and so he refuses to answer. He + refuses also to pretend. He knows that the theologian does not know, and + he has the courage to say so. + </p> + <p> + He knows that the religious creeds rest on assumption, supposition, + assertion—on myth and legend, on ignorance and superstition, and + that there is no evidence of their truth. The Agnostic bends his energies + in the opposite direction. He occupies himself with this world, with + things that can be ascertained and understood. He turns his attention to + the sciences, to the solution of questions that touch the well-being of + man. He wishes to prevent and cure diseases; to lengthen life; to provide + homes and raiment and food for man; to supply the wants of the body. + </p> + <p> + He also cultivates the arts. He believes in painting and sculpture, in + music and the drama—the needs of the soul. The Agnostic believes in + developing the brain, in cultivating the affections, the tastes, the + conscience, the judgment, to the end that man may be happy in this world. + He seeks to find the relation of things, the condition of happiness. He + wishes to enslave the forces of nature to the end that they may perform + the work of the world. Back of all progress are the real thinkers; the + finders of facts, those who turn their attention to the world in which we + live. The theologian has never been a help, always a hindrance. He has + always kept his back to the sunrise. With him all wisdom was in the past. + He appealed to the dead. He was and is the enemy of reason, of + investigation, of thought and progress. The church has never given + "sanctuary" to a persecuted truth. + </p> + <p> + There can be no doubt that the ideas of the Agnostic are gaining ground. + The scientific spirit has taken possession of the intellectual world. + Theological methods are unpopular to-day, even in theological schools. The + attention of men everywhere is being directed to the affairs of this + world, this life. The gods are growing indistinct, and, like the shapes of + clouds, they are changing as they fade. The idea of special providence has + been substantially abandoned. People are losing, and intelligent people + have lost, confidence in prayer. To-day no intelligent person believes in + miracles—a violation of the facts in nature. They may believe that + there used to be miracles a good while ago, but not now. The + "supernatural" is losing its power, its influence, and the church is + growing weaker every day. + </p> + <p> + The church is supported by the people, and in order to gain the support of + the people it must reflect their ideas, their hopes and fears. As the + people advance, the creeds will be changed, either by changing the words + or giving new meanings to the old words. The church, in order to live, + must agree substantially with those who support it, and consequently it + will change to any extent that may be necessary. If the church remains + true to the old standards then it will lose the support of progressive + people, and if the people generally advance the church will die. But my + opinion is that it will slowly change, that the minister will preach what + the members want to hear, and that the creed will be controlled by the + contribution box. One of these days the preachers may become teachers, and + when that happens the church will be of use. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you regard as the greatest of all themes in + poetry and song? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Love and Death. The same is true of the greatest music. In + "Tristan and Isolde" is the greatest music of love and death. In + Shakespeare the greatest themes are love and death. In all real poetry, in + all real music, the dominant, the triumphant tone, is love, and the minor, + the sad refrain, the shadow, the background, the mystery, is death. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What would be your advice to an intelligent young man + just starting out in life? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I would say to him: "Be true to your ideal. Cultivate your + heart and brain. Follow the light of your reason. Get all the happiness + out of life that you possibly can. Do not care for power, but strive to be + useful. First of all, support yourself so that you may not be a burden to + others. If you are successful, if you gain a surplus, use it for the good + of others. Own yourself and live and die a free man. Make your home a + heaven, love your wife and govern your children by kindness. Be good + natured, cheerful, forgiving and generous. Find out the conditions of + happiness, and then be wise enough to live in accordance with them. + Cultivate intellectual hospitality, express your honest thoughts, love + your friends, and be just to your enemies." + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York Herald</i>, September 16, 1894. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0112" id="link0112"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + WOMAN AND HER DOMAIN. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of the effect of the multiplicity of + women's clubs as regards the intellectual, moral and domestic status of + their members? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think that women should have clubs and societies, that + they should get together and exchange ideas. Women, as a rule, are + provincial and conservative. They keep alive all the sentimental mistakes + and superstitions. Now, if they can only get away from these, and get + abreast with the tide of the times, and think as well as feel, it will be + better for them and their children. You know St. Paul tells women that if + they want to know anything they must ask their husbands. For many + centuries they have followed this orthodox advice, and of course they have + not learned a great deal, because their husbands could not answer their + questions. Husbands, as a rule, do not know a great deal, and it will not + do for every wife to depend on the ignorance of her worst half. The women + of to-day are the great readers, and no book is a great success unless it + pleases the women. + </p> + <p> + As a result of this, all the literature of the world has changed, so that + now in all departments the thoughts of women are taken into consideration, + and women have thoughts, because they are the intellectual equals of men. + </p> + <p> + There are no statesmen in this country the equals of Harriet Martineau; + probably no novelists the equals of George Eliot or George Sand, and I + think Ouida the greatest living novelist. I think her "Ariadne" is one of + the greatest novels in the English language. There are few novels better + than "Consuelo," few poems better than "Mother and Poet." + </p> + <p> + So in all departments women are advancing; some of them have taken the + highest honors at medical colleges; others are prominent in the sciences, + some are great artists, and there are several very fine sculptors, &c., + &c. + </p> + <p> + So you can readily see what my opinion is on that point. + </p> + <p> + I am in favor of giving woman all the domain she conquers, and as the + world becomes civilized the domain that she can conquer will steadily + increase. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. But, Colonel, is there no danger of greatly interfering + with a woman's duties as wife and mother? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not think that it is dangerous to think, or that + thought interferes with love or the duties of wife or mother. I think the + contrary is the truth; the greater the brain the greater the power to + love, the greater the power to discharge all duties and obligations, so I + have no fear for the future. About women voting I don't care; whatever + they want to do they have my consent. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Democrat</i>, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1894. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0113" id="link0113"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + PROFESSOR SWING. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Since you were last in this city, Colonel, a + distinguished man has passed away in the person of Professor Swing. The + public will be interested to have your opinion of him. + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think Professor Swing did a great amount of good. He + helped to civilize the church and to humanize the people. His influence + was in the right direction—toward the light. In his youth he was + acquainted with toil, poverty, and hardship; his road was filled with + thorns, and yet he lived and scattered flowers in the paths of many + people. At first his soul was in the dungeon of a savage creed, where the + windows were very small and closely grated, and though which struggled + only a few rays of light. He longed for more light and for more liberty, + and at last his fellow- prisoners drove him forth, and from that time + until his death he did what he could to give light and liberty to the + souls of men. He was a lover of nature, poetic in his temperament, + charitable and merciful. As an orator he may have lacked presence, pose + and voice, but he did not lack force of statement or beauty of expression. + He was a man of wide learning, of great admiration of the heroic and + tender. He did what he could to raise the standard of character, to make + his fellow-men just and noble. He lost the provincialism of his youth and + became in a very noble sense a citizen of the world. He understood that + all the good is not in our race or in our religion—that in every + land there are good and noble men, self- denying and lovely women, and + that in most respects other religions are as good as ours, and in many + respects better. This gave him breadth of intellectual horizon and + enlarged his sympathy for the failures of the world. I regard his death as + a great loss, and his life as a lesson and inspiration. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Inter-Ocean</i>, Chicago, October 13, 1894. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0114" id="link0114"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + SENATOR SHERMAN AND HIS BOOK.* + </h2> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + [* No one is better qualified than Robert G. Ingersoll to + talk about Senator Sherman's book and the questions it + raises in political history. Mr. Ingersoll was for years a + resident of Washington and a next-door neighbor to Mr. + Sherman; he was for an even longer period the intimate + personal friend of James G. Blaine; he knew Garfield from + almost daily contact, and of the Republican National + Conventions concerning which Senator Sherman has raised + points of controversy Mr. Ingersoll can say, as the North + Carolinian said of the Confederacy: "Part of whom I am + which." + + He placed Blaine's name before the convention at Cincinnati + in 1876. He made the first of the three great nominating + speeches in convention history, Conkling and Garfield making + the others in 1880. + + The figure of the Plumed Knight which Mr. Ingersoll created + to characterize Mr. Blaine is part of the latter's memory. + At Chicago, four years later, when Garfield, dazed by the + irresistible doubt of the convention, was on the point of + refusing that in the acceptance of which he had no voluntary + part, Ingersoll was the adviser who showed him that duty to + Sherman required no such action.] +</pre> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of Senator Sherman's book—especially + the part about Garfield? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course, I have only read a few extracts from Mr. + Sherman's reminiscences, but I am perfectly satisfied that the Senator is + mistaken about Garfield's course. The truth is that Garfield captured the + convention by his course from day to day, and especially by the speech he + made for Sherman. After that speech, and it was a good one, the best + Garfield ever made, the convention said, "Speak for yourself, John." + </p> + <p> + It was perfectly apparent that if the Blaine and Sherman forces should try + to unite, Grant would be nominated. It had to be Grant or a new man, and + that man was Garfield. It all came about without Garfield's help, except + in the way I have said. Garfield even went so far as to declare that under + no circumstances could he accept, because he was for Sherman, and honestly + for him. He told me that he would not allow his name to go before the + convention. Just before he was nominated I wrote him a note in which I + said he was about to be nominated, and that he must not decline. I am + perfectly satisfied that he acted with perfect honor, and that he did his + best for Sherman. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Mr. Sherman expresses the opinion that if he had had the + "moral strength" of the Ohio delegation in his support he would have been + nominated? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. We all know that while Senator Sherman had many friends, + and that while many thought he would make an excellent President, still + there was but little enthusiasm among his followers. Sherman had the + respect of the party, but hardly the love. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. In his book the Senator expresses the opinion that he was + quite close to the nomination in 1888, when Mr. Quay was for him. Do you + think that is so, Mr. Ingersoll? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think Mr. Sherman had a much better chance in 1888 than + in 1880, but as a matter of fact, he never came within hailing distance of + success at any time. He is not of the nature to sway great bodies of men. + He lacks the power to impress himself upon others to such an extent as to + make friends of enemies and devotees of friends. Mr. Sherman has had a + remarkable career, and I think that he ought to be satisfied with what he + has achieved. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Mr. Ingersoll, what do you think defeated Blaine for the + nomination in 1876? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. On the first day of the convention at Cincinnati it was + known that Blaine was the leading candidate. All of the enthusiasm was for + him. It was soon known that Conkling, Bristow or Morton could not be + nominated, and that in all probability Blaine would succeed. The fact that + Blaine had been attacked by vertigo, or had suffered from a stroke of + apoplexy, gave an argument to those who opposed him, and this was used + with great effect. After Blaine was put in nomination, and before any vote + was taken, the convention adjourned, and during the night a great deal of + work was done. The Michigan delegation was turned inside out and the + Blaine forces raided in several States. Hayes, the dark horse, suddenly + developed speed, and the scattered forces rallied to his support. I have + always thought that if a ballot could have been taken on the day Blaine + was put in nomination he would have succeeded, and yet he might have been + defeated for the nomination anyway. + </p> + <p> + Blaine had the warmest friends and the bitterest enemies of any man in the + party. People either loved or hated him. He had no milk-and-water friends + and no milk-and-water enemies. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. If Blaine had been nominated at Cincinnati in 1876 would + he have made a stronger candidate than Hayes did? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. If he had been nominated then, I believe that he would have + been triumphantly elected. Mr. Blaine's worst enemies would not have + supported Tilden, and thousands of moderate Democrats would have given + their votes to Blaine. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Mr. Ingersoll, do you think that Mr. Blaine wanted the + nomination in 1884, when he got it? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In 1883, Mr. Blaine told me that he did not want the + nomination. I said to him: "Is that honest?" He replied that he did not + want it, that he was tired of the whole business. I said: "If you do not + want it; if you have really reached that conclusion, then I think you will + get it." He laughed, and again said: "I do not want it." I believe that he + spoke exactly as he then felt. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think defeated Mr. Blaine at the polls in + 1884? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Blaine was a splendid manager for another man, a great + natural organizer, and when acting for others made no mistake; but he did + not manage his own campaign with ability. He made a succession of + mistakes. His suit against the Indianapolis editor; his letter about the + ownership of certain stocks; his reply to Burchard and the preachers, in + which he said that history showed the church could get along without the + state, but the state could not get along without the church, and this in + reply to the "Rum, Romanism and Rebellion" nonsense; and last, but not + least, his speech to the millionaires in New York—all of these + things weakened him. As a matter of fact many Catholics were going to + support Blaine, but when they saw him fooling with the Protestant clergy, + and accepting the speech of Burchard, they instantly turned against him. + If he had never met Burchard, I think he would have been elected. His + career was something like that of Mr. Clay; he was the most popular man of + his party and yet—— + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How do you account for Mr. Blaine's action in allowing + his name to go before the convention at Minneapolis in 1892? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In 1892, Mr. Blaine was a sick man, almost worn out; he was + not his former self, and he was influenced by others. He seemed to have + lost his intuition; he was misled, yet in spite of all defeats, no name + will create among Republicans greater enthusiasm than that of James G. + Blaine. Millions are still his devoted, unselfish and enthusiastic friends + and defenders. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Globe-Democrat</i>, St. Louis, October 27, 1895. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0115" id="link0115"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + REPLY TO THE CHRISTIAN ENDEAVORERS. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How were you affected by the announcement that the united + prayers of the Salvationists and Christian Endeavorers were to be offered + for your conversion? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The announcement did not affect me to any great extent. I + take it for granted that the people praying for me are sincere and that + they have a real interest in my welfare. Of course, I thank them one and + all. At the same time I can hardly account for what they did. Certainly + they would not ask God to convert me unless they thought the prayer could + be answered. And if their God can convert me of course he can convert + everybody. Then the question arises why he does not do it. Why does he let + millions go to hell when he can convert them all. Why did he not convert + them all before the flood and take them all to heaven instead of drowning + them and sending them all to hell. Of course these questions can be + answered by saying that God's ways are not our ways. I am greatly obliged + to these people. Still, I feel about the same, so that it would be + impossible to get up a striking picture of "before and after." It was + good-natured on their part to pray for me, and that act alone leads me to + believe that there is still hope for them. The trouble with the Christian + Endeavorers is that they don't give my arguments consideration. If they + did they would agree with me. It seemed curious that they would advise + divine wisdom what to do, or that they would ask infinite mercy to treat + me with kindness. If there be a God, of course he knows what ought to be + done, and will do it without any hints from ignorant human beings. Still, + the Endeavorers and the Salvation people may know more about God than I + do. For all I know, this God may need a little urging. He may be powerful + but a little slow; intelligent but sometimes a little drowsy, and it may + do good now and then to call his attention to the facts. The prayers did + not, so far as I know, do me the least injury or the least good. I was + glad to see that the Christians are getting civilized. A few years ago + they would have burned me. Now they pray for me. + </p> + <p> + Suppose God should answer the prayers and convert me, how would he bring + the conversion about? In the first place, he would have to change my brain + and give me more credulity—that is, he would be obliged to lessen my + reasoning power. Then I would believe not only without evidence, but in + spite of evidence. All the miracles would appear perfectly natural. It + would then seem as easy to raise the dead as to waken the sleeping. In + addition to this, God would so change my mind that I would hold all reason + in contempt and put entire confidence in faith. I would then regard + science as the enemy of human happiness, and ignorance as the soil in + which virtues grow. Then I would throw away Darwin and Humboldt, and rely + on the sermons of orthodox preachers. In other words, I would become a + little child and amuse myself with a religious rattle and a Gabriel horn. + Then I would rely on a man who has been dead for nearly two thousand years + to secure me a seat in Paradise. + </p> + <p> + After conversion, it is not pretended that I will be any better so far as + my actions are concerned; no more charitable, no more honest, no more + generous. The great difference will be that I will believe more and think + less. + </p> + <p> + After all, the converted people do not seem to be better than the sinners. + I never heard of a poor wretch clad in rags, limping into a town and + asking for the house of a Christian. + </p> + <p> + I think that I had better remain as I am. I had better follow the light of + my reason, be true to myself, express my honest thoughts, and do the + little I can for the destruction of superstition, the little I can for the + development of the brain, for the increase of intellectual hospitality and + the happiness of my fellow-beings. One world at a time. + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York Journal</i>, December 15, 1895. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0116" id="link0116"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + SPIRITUALISM. + </h2> + <p> + There are several good things about Spiritualism. First, they are not + bigoted; second, they do not believe in salvation by faith; third, they + don't expect to be happy in another world because Christ was good in this; + fourth, they do not preach the consolation of hell; fifth, they do not + believe in God as an infinite monster; sixth, the Spiritualists believe in + intellectual hospitality. In these respects they differ from our Christian + brethren, and in these respects they are far superior to the saints. + </p> + <p> + I think that the Spiritualists have done good. They believe in enjoying + themselves—in having a little pleasure in this world. They are + social, cheerful and good-natured. They are not the slaves of a book. + Their hands and feet are not tied with passages of Scripture. They are not + troubling themselves about getting forgiveness and settling their heavenly + debts for a cent on the dollar. Their belief does not make then mean or + miserable. + </p> + <p> + They do not persecute their neighbors. They ask no one to have faith or to + believe without evidence. They ask all to investigate, and then to make up + their minds from the evidence. Hundreds and thousands of well-educated, + intelligent people are satisfied with the evidence and firmly believe in + the existence of spirits. For all I know, they may be right—but—— + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. The Spiritualists have indirectly claimed, that you were + in many respects almost one of them. Have you given them reason to believe + so? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I am not a Spiritualist, and have never pretended to be. + The Spiritualists believe in free thought, in freedom of speech, and they + are willing to hear the other side—willing to hear me. The best + thing about the Spiritualists is that they believe in intellectual + hospitality. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is Spiritualism a religion or a truth? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think that Spiritualism may properly be called a + religion. It deals with two worlds—teaches the duty of man to his + fellows—the relation that this life bears to the next. It claims to + be founded on facts. It insists that the "dead" converse with the living, + and that information is received from those who once lived in this world. + Of the truth of these claims I have no sufficient evidence. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are all mediums impostors? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I will not say that all mediums are impostors, because I do + not know. I do not believe that these mediums get any information or help + from "spirits." I know that for thousands of years people have believed in + mediums—in Spiritualism. A spirit in the form of a man appeared to + Samson's mother, and afterward to his father. + </p> + <p> + Spirits, or angels, called on Abraham. The witch of Endor raised the ghost + of Samuel. An angel appeared with three men in the furnace. The + handwriting on the wall was done by a spirit. A spirit appeared to Joseph + in a dream, to the wise men and to Joseph again. + </p> + <p> + So a spirit, an angel or a god, spoke to Saul, and the same happened to + Mary Magdalene. + </p> + <p> + The religious literature of the world is filled with such things. Take + Spiritualism from Christianity and the whole edifice crumbles. All + religions, so far as I know, are based on Spiritualism—on + communications received from angels, from spirits. + </p> + <p> + I do not say that all the mediums, ancient and modern, were, and are, + impostors—but I do think that all the honest ones were, and are, + mistaken. I do not believe that man has ever received any communication + from angels, spirits or gods. No whisper, as I believe, has ever come from + any other world. The lips of the dead are always closed. From the grave + there has come no voice. For thousands of years people have been + questioning the dead. They have tried to catch the whisper of a vanished + voice. Many say that they have succeeded. I do not know. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is the explanation of the startling knowledge + displayed by some so-called "mediums" of the history and personal affairs + of people who consult them? Is there any such thing as mind-reading or + thought-transference? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In a very general way, I suppose that one person may read + the thought of another—not definitely, but by the expression of the + face, by the attitude of the body, some idea may be obtained as to what a + person thinks, what he intends. So thought may be transferred by look or + language, but not simply by will. Everything that is, is natural. Our + ignorance is the soil in which mystery grows. I do not believe that + thoughts are things that can been seen or touched. Each mind lives in a + world of its own, a world that no other mind can enter. Minds, like ships + at sea, give signs and signals to each other, but they do not exchange + captains. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is there any such thing as telepathy? What is the + explanation of the stories of mental impressions received at long + distances? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. There are curious coincidences. People sometimes happen to + think of something that is taking place at a great distance. The stories + about these happenings are not very well authenticated, and seem never to + have been of the least use to anyone. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Can these phenomena be considered aside from any + connection with, or form of, superstition? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think that mistake, emotion, nervousness, hysteria, + dreams, love of the wonderful, dishonesty, ignorance, grief and the + longing for immortality—the desire to meet the loved and lost, the + horror of endless death—account for these phenomena. People often + mistake their dreams for realities—often think their thoughts have + "happened." They live in a mental mist, a mirage. The boundary between the + actual and the imagined becomes faint, wavering and obscure. They mistake + clouds for mountains. The real and the unreal mix and mingle until the + impossible becomes common, and the natural absurd. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you believe that any sane man ever had a vision? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course, the sane and insane have visions, dreams. I do + not believe that any man, sane or insane, was ever visited by an angel or + spirit, or ever received any information from the dead. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Setting aside from consideration the so-called physical + manifestations of the mediums, has Spiritualism offered any proof of the + immortality of the soul? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course Spiritualism offers what it calls proof of + immortality. That is its principal business. Thousands and thousands of + good, honest, intelligent people think the proof sufficient. They receive + what they believe to be messages from the departed, and now and then the + spirits assume their old forms —including garments—and pass + through walls and doors as light passes through glass. Do these things + really happen? If the spirits of the dead do return, then the fact of + another life is established. It all depends on the evidence. Our senses + are easily deceived, and some people have more confidence in their reason + than in their senses. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you not believe that such a man as Robert Dale Owen + was sincere? What was the real state of mind of the author of "Footfalls + on the Boundaries of Another World"? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Without the slightest doubt, Robert Dale Owen was sincere. + He was one of the best of men. His father labored all his life for the + good of others. Robert Owen, the father, had a debate, in Cincinnati, with + the Rev. Alexander Campbell, the founder of the Campbellite Church. + Campbell was no match for Owen, and yet the audience was almost + unanimously against Owen. + </p> + <p> + Robert Dale Owen was an intelligent, thoughtful, honest man. He was + deceived by several mediums, but remained a believer. He wanted + Spiritualism to be true. He hungered and thirsted for another life. He + explained everything that was mysterious or curious by assuming the + interference of spirits. He was a good man, but a poor investigator. He + thought that people were all honest. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you understand the Spiritualist means when he + claims that the soul goes to the "Summer land," and there continues to + work and evolute to higher planes? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. No one pretends to know where "heaven" is. The celestial + realm is the blessed somewhere in the unknown nowhere. So far as I know, + the "Summer land" has no metes and bounds, and no one pretends to know + exactly or inexactly where it is. After all, the "Summer land" is a hope—a + wish. Spiritualists believe that a soul leaving this world passes into + another, or into another state, and continues to grow in intelligence and + virtue, if it so desires. + </p> + <p> + Spiritualists claim to prove that there is another life. Christians + believe this, but their witnesses have been dead for many centuries. They + take the "hearsay" of legend and ancient gossip; but Spiritualists claim + to have living witnesses; witnesses that can talk, make music; that can + take to themselves bodies and shake hands with the people they knew before + they passed to the "other shore." + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Has Spiritualism, through its mediums, ever told the + world anything useful, or added to the store of the world's knowledge, or + relieved its burdens? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not know that any medium has added to the useful + knowledge of the world, unless mediums have given evidence of another + life. Mediums have told us nothing about astronomy, geology or history, + have made no discoveries, no inventions, and have enriched no art. The + same may be said of every religion. + </p> + <p> + All the orthodox churches believe in Spiritualism. Every now and then the + Virgin appears to some peasant, and in the old days the darkness was + filled with evil spirits. Christ was a Spiritualist, and his principal + business was the casting out of devils. All of his disciples, all of the + church fathers, all of the saints were believers in Spiritualism of the + lowest and most ignorant type. During the Middle Ages people changed + themselves, with the aid of spirits, into animals. They became wolves, + dogs, cats and donkeys. In those day all the witches and wizards were + mediums. So animals were sometimes taken possession of by spirits, the + same as Balaam's donkey and Christ's swine. Nothing was too absurd for the + Christians. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Has not Spiritualism added to the world's stock of hope? + And in what way has not Spiritualism done good? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The mother holding in her arms her dead child, believing + that the babe has simply passed to another life, does not weep as bitterly + as though she thought that death was the eternal end. A belief in + Spiritualism must be a consolation. You see, the Spiritualists do not + believe in eternal pain, and consequently a belief in immortality does not + fill their hearts with fear. + </p> + <p> + Christianity makes eternal life an infinite horror, and casts the glare of + hell on almost every grave. + </p> + <p> + The Spiritualists appear to be happy in their belief. I have never known a + happy orthodox Christian. + </p> + <p> + It is natural to shun death, natural to desire eternal life. With all my + heart I hope for everlasting life and joy—a life without failures, + without crimes and tears. + </p> + <p> + If immortality could be established, the river of life would overflow with + happiness. The faces of prisoners, of slaves, of the deserted, of the + diseased and starving would be radiant with smiles, and the dull eyes of + despair would glow with light. + </p> + <p> + If it could be established. + </p> + <p> + Let us hope. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Journal</i>, New York, July 26, 1896. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0117" id="link0117"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + A LITTLE OF EVERYTHING. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of the position taken by the United + States in the Venezuelan dispute? How should the dispute be settled? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not think that we have any interest in the dispute + between Venezuela and England. It was and is none of our business. The + Monroe doctrine was not and is not in any way involved. Mr. Cleveland made + a mistake and so did Congress. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What should be the attitude of the church toward the + stage? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It should be, what it always has been, against it. If the + orthodox churches are right, then the stage is wrong. The stage makes + people forget hell; and this puts their souls in peril. There will be + forever a conflict between Shakespeare and the Bible. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of the new woman? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I like her. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Where rests the responsibility for the Armenian + atrocities? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Religion is the cause of the hatred and bloodshed. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of international marriages, as between + titled foreigners and American heiresses? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. My opinion is the same as is entertained by the American + girl after the marriages. It is a great mistake. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of England's Poet Laureate, Alfred + Austin? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have only read a few of his lines and they were not + poetic. The office of Poet Laureate should be abolished. Men cannot write + poems to order as they could deliver cabbages or beer. By poems I do not + mean jingles of words. I mean great thoughts clothed in splendor. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your estimate of Susan B. Anthony? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Miss Anthony is one of the most remarkable women in the + world. She has the enthusiasm of youth and spring, the courage and + sincerity of a martyr. She is as reliable as the attraction of + gravitation. She is absolutely true to her conviction, intellectually + honest, logical, candid and infinitely persistent. No human being has done + more for women than Miss Anthony. She has won the respect and admiration + of the best people on the earth. And so I say: Good luck and long life to + Susan B. Anthony. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Which did more for his country, George Washington or + Abraham Lincoln? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In my judgment, Lincoln was the greatest man ever + President. I put him above Washington and Jefferson. He had the genius of + goodness; and he was one of the wisest and shrewdest of men. Lincoln + towers above them all. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What gave rise to the report that you had been converted + —did you go to church somewhere? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I visited the "People's Church" in Kalamazoo, Michigan. + This church has no creed. The object is to make people happy in this + world. Miss Bartlett is the pastor. She is a remarkable woman and is + devoting her life to good work. I liked her church and said so. This is + all. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are there not some human natures so morally weak or + diseased that they cannot keep from sin without the aid of some sort of + religion? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not believe that the orthodox religion helps anybody + to be just, generous or honest. Superstition is not the soil in which + goodness grows. Falsehood is poor medicine. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Would you consent to live in any but a Christian + community? If you would, please name one. + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I would not live in a community where all were orthodox + Christians. I would rather dwell in Central Africa. If I could have my + choice I would rather live among people who were free, who sought for + truth and lived according to reason. Sometime there will be such a + community. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is the noun "United States" singular or plural, as you + use English? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I use it in the singular. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Have you read Nordau's "Degeneracy"? If so, what do you + think of it? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think it is substantially insane. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of Bishop Doane's advocacy of free rum + as a solution of the liquor problem? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I am a believer in liberty. All the temperance legislation, + all the temperance societies, all the agitation, all these things have + done no good. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you agree with Mr. Carnegie that a college education + is of little or no practical value to a man? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. A man must have education. It makes no difference where or + how he gets it. To study the dead languages is time wasted so far as + success in business is concerned. Most of the colleges in this country are + poor because controlled by theologians. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What suggestion would you make for the improvement of the + newspapers of this country? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Every article in a newspaper should be signed by the + writer. And all writers should do their best to tell the exact facts. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of Niagara Falls? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It is a dangerous place. Those great rushing waters— + there is nothing attractive to me in them. There is so much noise; so much + tumult. It is simply a mighty force of nature—one of those + tremendous powers that is to be feared for its danger. What I like in + nature is a cultivated field, where men can work in the free open air, + where there is quiet and repose—no turmoil, no strife, no tumult, no + fearful roar or struggle for mastery. I do not like the crowded, stuffy + workshop, where life is slavery and drudgery. Give me the calm, cultivated + land of waving grain, of flowers, of happiness. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is worse than death? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Oh, a great many things. To be dishonored. To be worthless. + To feel that you are a failure. To be insane. To be constantly afraid of + the future. To lose the ones you love. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Herald</i>, Rochester, New York, February 25, 1896. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0118" id="link0118"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + IS LIFE WORTH LIVING—CHRISTIAN SCIENCE AND POLITICS. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. With all your experiences, the trials, the + responsibilities, the disappointments, the heartburnings, Colonel, is life + worth living? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Well, I can only answer for myself. I like to be alive, to + breathe the air, to look at the landscape, the clouds and stars, to repeat + old poems, to look at pictures and statues, to hear music, the voices of + the ones I love. I like to talk with my wife, my girls, my grandchildren. + I like to sleep and to dream. Yes, you can say that life, to me, is worth + living. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Colonel, did you ever kill any game? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. When I was a boy I killed two ducks, and it hurt me as much + as anything I ever did. No, I would not kill any living creature. I am + sometimes tempted to kill a mosquito on my hand, but I stop and think what + a wonderful construction it has, and shoo it away. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of political parties, Colonel? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In a country where the sovereignty is divided among the + people, that is to say, among the men, in order to accomplish anything, + many must unite, and I believe in joining the party that is going the + nearest your way. I do not believe in being the slave or serf or servant + of a party. Go with it if it is going your road, and when the road forks, + take the one that leads to the place you wish to visit, no matter whether + the party goes that way or not. I do not believe in belonging to a party + or being the property of any organization. I do not believe in giving a + mortgage on yourself or a deed of trust for any purpose whatever. It is + better to be free and vote wrong than to be a slave and vote right. I + believe in taking the chances. At the same time, as long as a party is + going my way, I believe in placing that party above particular persons, + and if that party nominates a man that I despise, I will vote for him if + he is going my way. I would rather have a bad man belonging to my party in + place, than a good man belonging to the other, provided my man believes in + my principles, and to that extent I believe in party loyalty. + </p> + <p> + Neither do I join in the general hue and cry against bosses. There has + always got to be a leader, even in a flock of wild geese. If anything is + to be accomplished, no matter what, somebody takes the lead and the others + allow him to go on. In that way political bosses are made, and when you + hear a man howling against bosses at the top of his lungs, distending his + cheeks to the bursting point, you may know that he has ambition to become + a boss. + </p> + <p> + I do not belong to the Republican party, but I have been going with it, + and when it goes wrong I shall quit, unless the other is worse. There is + no office, no place, that I want, and as it does not cost anything to be + right, I think it better to be that way. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your idea of Christian Science? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think it is superstition, pure and unadulterated. I think + that soda will cure a sour stomach better than thinking. In my judgment, + quinine is a better tonic than meditation. Of course cheerfulness is good + and depression bad, but if you can absolutely control the body and all its + functions by thought, what is the use of buying coal? Let the mercury go + down and keep yourself hot by thinking. What is the use of wasting money + for food? Fill your stomach with think. According to these Christian + Science people all that really exists is an illusion, and the only + realities are the things that do not exist. They are like the old fellow + in India who said that all things were illusions. One day he was speaking + to a crowd on his favorite hobby. Just as he said "all is illusion" a + fellow on an elephant rode toward him. The elephant raised his trunk as + though to strike, thereupon the speaker ran away. Then the crowd laughed. + In a few moments the speaker returned. The people shouted: "If all is + illusion, what made you run away?" The speaker replied: "My poor friends, + I said all is illusion. I say so still. There was no elephant. I did not + run away. You did not laugh, and I am not explaining now. All is + illusion." + </p> + <p> + That man must have been a Christian Scientist. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Inter-Ocean</i>, Chicago, November, 1897. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0119" id="link0119"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + VIVISECTION. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. Why are you so utterly opposed to vivisection? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Because, as it is generally practiced, it is an unspeakable + cruelty. Because it hardens the hearts and demoralizes those who inflict + useless and terrible pains on the bound and helpless. If these + vivisectionists would give chloroform or ether to the animals they + dissect; if they would render them insensible to pain, and if, by cutting + up these animals, they could learn anything worth knowing, no one would + seriously object. + </p> + <p> + The trouble is that these doctors, these students, these professors, these + amateurs, do not give anesthetics. They insist that to render the animal + insensible does away with the value of the experiment. They care nothing + for the pain they inflict. They are so eager to find some fact that will + be of benefit to the human race, that they are utterly careless of the + agony endured. + </p> + <p> + Now, what I say is that no decent man, no gentleman, no civilized person, + would vivisect an animal without first having rendered that animal + insensible to pain. The doctor, the scientist, who puts his knives, + forceps, chisels and saws into the flesh, bones and nerves of an animal + without having used an anesthetic, is a savage, a pitiless, heartless + monster. When he says he does this for the good of man, because he wishes + to do good, he says what is not true. No such man wants to do good; he + commits the crime for his own benefit and because he wishes to gratify an + insane cruelty or to gain a reputation among like savages. + </p> + <p> + These scientists now insist that they have done some good. They do not + tell exactly what they have done. The claim is general in its character—not + specific. If they have done good, could they not have done just as much if + they had used anesthetics? Good is not the child of cruelty. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think that the vivisectionists do their work + without anesthetics? Do they not, as a rule, give something to deaden + pain? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Here is what the trouble is. Now and then one uses + chloroform, but the great majority do not. They claim that it interferes + with the value of the experiment, and, as I said before, they object to + the expense. Why should they care for what the animals suffer? They + inflict the most horrible and useless pain, and they try the silliest + experiments—experiments of no possible use or advantage. + </p> + <p> + For instance: They flay a dog to see how long he can live without his + skin. Is this trifling experiment of any importance? Suppose the dog can + live a week or a month or a year, what then? What must the real character + of the scientific wretch be who would try an experiment like this? Is such + a man seeking the good of his fellow- men? + </p> + <p> + So, these scientists starve animals until they slowly die; watch them from + day to day as life recedes from the extremities, and watch them until the + final surrender, to see how long the heart will flutter without food; + without water. They keep a diary of their sufferings, of their whinings + and moanings, of their insanity. And this diary is published and read with + joy and eagerness by other scientists in like experiments. Of what + possible use is it to know how long a dog or horse can live without food? + </p> + <p> + So, they take animals, dogs and horses, cut through the flesh with the + knife, remove some of the back bone with the chisel, then divide the + spinal marrow, then touch it with red hot wires for the purpose of + finding, as they say, the connection of nerves; and the animal, thus + vivisected, is left to die. + </p> + <p> + A good man will not voluntarily inflict pain. He will see that his horse + has food, if he can procure it, and if he cannot procure the food, he will + end the sufferings of the animal in the best and easiest way. So, the good + man would rather remain in ignorance as to how pain is transmitted than to + cut open the body of a living animal, divide the marrow and torture the + nerves with red hot iron. Of what use can it be to take a dog, tie him + down and cut out one of his kidneys to see if he can live with the other? + </p> + <p> + These horrors are perpetrated only by the cruel and the heartless —so + cruel and so heartless that they are utterly unfit to be trusted with a + human life. They inoculate animals with a virus of disease; they put + poison in their eyes until rottenness destroys the sight; until the poor + brutes become insane. They given them a disease that resembles + hydrophobia, that is accompanied by the most frightful convulsions and + spasms. They put them in ovens to see what degree of heat it is that + kills. They also try the effect of cold; they slowly drown them; they + poison them with the venom of snakes; they force foreign substances into + their blood, and, by inoculation, into their eyes; and then watch and + record their agonies; their sufferings. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Don't you think that some good has been accomplished, + some valuable information obtained, by vivisection? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I don't think any valuable information has been obtained by + the vivisection of animals without chloroform that could not have been + obtained with chloroform. And to answer the question broadly as to whether + any good has been accomplished by vivisection, I say no. + </p> + <p> + According to the best information that I can obtain, the vivisectors have + hindered instead of helped. Lawson Tait, who stands at the head of his + profession in England, the best surgeon in Great Britain, says that all + this cutting and roasting and freezing and torturing of animals has done + harm instead of good. He says publicly that the vivisectors have hindered + the progress of surgery. He declares that they have not only done no good, + but asserts that they have done only harm. The same views according to + Doctor Tait, are entertained by Bell, Syme and Fergusson. + </p> + <p> + Many have spoken of Darwin as though he were a vivisector. This is not + true. All that has been accomplished by these torturers of dumb and + helpless animals amounts to nothing. We have obtained from these gentlemen + Koch's cure for consumption, Pasteur's factory of hydrophobia and + Brown-Sequard's elixir of life. These three failures, gigantic, absurd, + ludicrous, are the great accomplishment of vivisection. + </p> + <p> + Surgery has advanced, not by the heartless tormentors of animals, but by + the use of anesthetics—that is to say, chloroform, ether and + cocaine. The cruel wretches, the scientific assassins, have accomplished + nothing. Hundreds of thousands of animals have suffered every pain that + nerves can feel, and all for nothing—nothing except to harden the + heart and to make criminals of men. + </p> + <p> + They have not given anesthetics to these animals, but they have been + guilty of the last step in cruelty. They have given curare, a drug that + attacks the centers of motion, that makes it impossible for the animal to + move, so that when under its influence, no matter what the pain may be, + the animal lies still. This curare not only destroys the power of motion, + but increases the sensitiveness of the nerves. To give this drug and then + to dissect the living animal is the extreme of cruelty. Beyond this, + heartlessness cannot go. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you know that you have been greatly criticized for + what you have said on this subject? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes; I have read many criticisms; but what of that. It is + impossible for the ingenuity of man to say anything in defence of cruelty—of + heartlessness. So, it is impossible for the defenders of vivisection to + show any good that has been accomplished without the use of anesthetics. + The chemist ought to be able to determine what is and what is not poison. + There is no need of torturing the animals. So, this giving to animals + diseases is of no importance to man—not the slightest; and nothing + has been discovered in bacteriology so far that has been of use or that is + of benefit. + </p> + <p> + Personally, I admit that all have the right to criticise; and my answer to + the critics is, that they do not know the facts; or, knowing them, they + are interested in preventing a knowledge of these facts coming to the + public. Vivisection should be controlled by law. No animal should be + allowed to be tortured. And to cut up a living animal not under the + influence of chloroform or ether, should be a penitentiary offence. + </p> + <p> + A perfect reply to all the critics who insist that great good has been + done is to repeat the three names—Koch, Pasteur and Brown- Sequard. + </p> + <p> + The foundation of civilization is not cruelty; it is justice, generosity, + mercy. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Evening Telegram</i>, New York, September 30, 1893. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0120" id="link0120"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + DIVORCE. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. The <i>Herald</i> would like to have you give your ideas + on divorce. On last Sunday in your lecture you said a few words on the + subject, but only a few. Do you think the laws governing divorce ought to + be changed? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. We obtained our ideas about divorce from the Hebrews— + from the New Testament and the church. In the Old Testament woman is not + considered of much importance. The wife was the property of the husband. + </p> + <p> + "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's ox or his wife." In this commandment + the wife is put on an equality with other property, so under certain + conditions the husband could put away his wife, but the wife could not put + away her husband. + </p> + <p> + In the New Testament there is little in favor of marriage, and really + nothing as to the rights of wives. Christ said nothing in favor of + marriage, and never married. So far as I know, none of the apostles had + families. St. Paul was opposed to marriage, and allowed it only as a + choice of evils. In those days it was imagined by the Christians that the + world was about to be purified by fire, and that they would be changed + into angels. + </p> + <p> + The early Christians were opposed to marriage, and the "fathers" looked + upon woman as the source of all evil. They did not believe in divorces. + They thought that if people loved each other better than they did God, and + got married, they ought to be held to the bargain, no matter what + happened. + </p> + <p> + These "fathers" were, for the most part, ignorant and hateful savages, and + had no more idea of right and wrong than wild beasts. + </p> + <p> + The church insisted that marriage was a sacrament, and that God, in some + mysterious way, joined husband and wife in marriage—that he was one + of the parties to the contract, and that only death could end it. + </p> + <p> + Of course, this supernatural view of marriage is perfectly absurd. If + there be a God, there certainly have been marriages he did not approve, + and certain it is that God can have no interest in keeping husbands and + wives together who never should have married. + </p> + <p> + Some of the preachers insist that God instituted marriage in the Garden of + Eden. We now know that there was no Garden of Eden, and that woman was not + made from the first man's rib. Nobody with any real sense believes this + now. The institution of marriage was not established by Jehovah. Neither + was it established by Christ, not any of his apostles. + </p> + <p> + In considering the question of divorce, the supernatural should be + discarded. We should take into consideration only the effect upon human + beings. The gods should be allowed to take care of themselves. + </p> + <p> + Is it to the interest of a husband and wife to live together after love + has perished and when they hate each other? Will this add to their + happiness? Should a woman be compelled to remain the wife of a man who + hates and abuses her, and whom she loathes? Has society any interest in + forcing women to live with men they hate? + </p> + <p> + There is no real marriage without love, and in the marriage state there is + no morality without love. A woman who remains the wife of a man whom she + despises, or does not love, corrupts her soul. She becomes degraded, + polluted, and feels that her flesh has been soiled. Under such + circumstances a good woman suffers the agonies of moral death. It may be + said that the woman can leave her husband; that she is not compelled to + live in the same house or to occupy the same room. If she has the right to + leave, has she the right to get a new house? Should a woman be punished + for having married? Women do not marry the wrong men on purpose. Thousands + of mistakes are made—are these mistakes sacred? Must they be + preserved to please God? + </p> + <p> + What good can it do God to keep people married who hate each other? What + good can it do the community to keep such people together? + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you consider marriage a contract or a sacrament? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Marriage is the most important contract that human beings + can make. No matter whether it is called a contract or a sacrament, it + remains the same. A true marriage is a natural concord or agreement of + souls—a harmony in which discord is not even imagined. It is a + mingling so perfect that only one seems to exist. All other considerations + are lost. The present seems eternal. In this supreme moment there is no + shadow, or the shadow is as luminous as light. + </p> + <p> + When two beings thus love, thus united, this is the true marriage of soul + and soul. The idea of contract is lost. Duty and obligation are instantly + changed into desire and joy, and two lives, like uniting streams, flow on + as one. + </p> + <p> + This is real marriage. + </p> + <p> + Now, if the man turns out to be a wild beast, if he destroys the happiness + of the wife, why should she remain his victim? + </p> + <p> + If she wants a divorce, she should have it. The divorce will not hurt God + or the community. As a matter of fact, it will save a life. + </p> + <p> + No man not poisoned by superstition will object to the release of an + abused wife. In such a case only savages can object to divorce. The man + who wants courts and legislatures to force a woman to live with him is a + monster. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you believe that the divorced should be allowed to + marry again? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Certainly. Has the woman whose rights have been outraged no + right to build another home? Must this woman, full of kindness, affection + and health, be chained until death releases her? Is there no future for + her? Must she be an outcast forever? Can she never sit by her own hearth, + with the arms of her children about her neck, and by her side a husband + who loves and protects her? + </p> + <p> + There are no two sides to this question. + </p> + <p> + All human beings should be allowed to correct their mistakes. If the wife + has flagrantly violated the contract of marriage, the husband should be + given a divorce. If the wife wants a divorce, if she loathes her husband, + if she no longer loves him, then the divorce should be granted. + </p> + <p> + It is immoral for a woman to live as the wife of a man whom she abhors. + The home should be pure. Children should be well-born. Their parents + should love one another. + </p> + <p> + Marriages are made by men and women, not by society, not by the state, not + by the church, not by the gods. Nothing is moral, that does not tend to + the well-being of sentient beings. + </p> + <p> + The good home is the unit of good government. The hearthstone is the + corner-stone of civilization. Society is not interested in the + preservation of hateful homes. It is not to the interest of society that + good women should be enslaved or that they should become mothers by + husbands whom they hate. + </p> + <p> + Most of the laws about divorce are absurd or cruel, and ought to be + repealed. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Herald</i>, New York, February, 1897. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0121" id="link0121"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + MUSIC, NEWSPAPERS, LYNCHING AND ARBITRATION. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. How do you enjoy staying in Chicago? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Well, I am about as happy as a man can be when he is away + from home. I was at the opera last night. I am always happy when I hear + the music of Wagner interpreted by such a genius as Seidl. I do not + believe there is a man in the world who has in his brain and heart more of + the real spirit of Wagner than Anton Seidl. He knows how to lead, how to + phrase and shade, how to rush and how to linger, and to express every + passion and every mood. So I was happy last night to hear him. Then I + heard Edouard de Reszke, the best of bass singers, with tones of a great + organ, and others soft and liquid, and Jean de Reszke, a great tenor, who + sings the "Swan Song" as though inspired; and I liked Bispham, but hated + his part. He is a great singer; so is Mme. Litvinne. + </p> + <p> + So, I can say that I am enjoying Chicago. In fact, I always did. I was + here when the town was small, not much more than huts and hogs, lumber and + mud; and now it is one of the greatest of cities. It makes me happy just + to think of the difference. I was born the year Chicago was incorporated. + In my time matches were invented. Steam navigation became really useful. + The telegraph was invented. Gas was discovered and applied to practical + uses, and electricity was made known in its practical workings to mankind. + Thus, it is seen the world is progressing; men are becoming civilized. But + the process of civilization even now is slow. In one or two thousand years + we may hope to see a vast improvement in man's condition. We may expect to + have the employer so far civilized that he will not try to make money for + money's sake, but in order that he may apply it to good uses, to the + amelioration of his fellow-man's condition. We may also expect the see the + workingman, the employee, so far civilized that he will know it is + impossible and undesirable for him to attempt to fix the wages paid by his + employer. We may in a thousand or more years reasonably expect that the + employee will be so far civilized and become sufficiently sensible to know + that strikes and threats and mob violence can never improve his condition. + Altruism is nonsense, craziness. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is Chicago as liberal, intellectually, as New York? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think so. Of course you will find thousands of free, + thoughtful people in New York—people who think and want others to do + the same. So, there are thousands of respectable people who are centuries + behind the age. In other words, you will find all kinds. I presume the + same is true of Chicago. I find many liberal people here, and some not + quite so liberal. + </p> + <p> + Some of the papers here seem to be edited by real pious men. On last + Tuesday the <i>Times-Herald</i> asked pardon of its readers for having + given a report of my lecture. That editor must be pious. In the same + paper, columns were given to the prospective prize- fight at Carson City. + All the news about the good Corbett and the orthodox Fitzsimmons—about + the training of the gentlemen who are going to attack each others' + jugulars and noses; who are expected to break jaws, blacken eyes, and peel + foreheads in a few days, to settle the question of which can bear the most + pounding. In this great contest and in all its vulgar details, the readers + of the <i>Times-Herald</i> are believed by the editor of that religious + daily to take great interest. + </p> + <p> + The editor did not ask the pardon of his readers for giving so much space + to the nose-smashing sport. No! He knew that would fill their souls with + delight, and, so knowing, he reached the correct conclusion that such + people would not enjoy anything I had said. The editor did a wise thing + and catered to a large majority of his readers. I do not think that we + have as religious a daily paper in New York as the <i>Times-Herald</i>. So + the editor of the <i>Times- Herald</i> took the ground that men with + little learning, in youth, might be agnostic, but as they grew sensible + they would become orthodox. When he wrote that he was probably thinking of + Humboldt and Darwin, of Huxley and Haeckel. May be Herbert Spencer was in + his mind, but I think that he must have been thinking of a few boys in his + native village. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think about prize-fighting anyway? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Well, I think that prize-fighting is worse, if possible, + than revival meetings. Next to fighting to kill, as they did in the old + Roman days, I think the modern prize-fight is the most disgusting and + degrading of exhibitions. All fights, whether cock- fights, bull-fights or + pugilistic encounters, are practiced and enjoyed only by savages. No + matter what office they hold, what wealth or education they have, they are + simply savages. Under no possible circumstances would I witness a + prize-fight or a bull- fight or a dog-fight. The Marquis of Queensbury was + once at my house, and I found his opinions were the same as mine. Everyone + thinks that he had something to do with the sport of prize-fighting, but + he did not, except to make some rules once for a college boxing contest. + He told me that he never saw but one prize-fight in his life, and that it + made him sick. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How are you on the arbitration treaty? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I am for it with all my heart. I have read it, and read it + with care, and to me it seems absolutely fair. England and America should + set an example to the world. The English-speaking people have reason + enough and sense enough, I hope, to settle their differences by argument—by + reason. Let us get the wild beast out of us. Two great nations like + England and America appealing to force, arguing with shot and shell! What + is education worth? Is what we call civilization a sham? Yes, I believe in + peace, in arbitration, in settling disputes like reasonable, human beings. + All that war can do is to determine who is the stronger. It throws no + light on any question, addresses no argument. There is a point to a + bayonet, but no logic. After the war is over the victory does not tell + which nation was right. Civilized men take their differences to courts or + arbitrators. Civilized nations should do the same. There ought to be an + international court. + </p> + <p> + Let every man do all he can to prevent war—to prevent the waste, the + cruelties, the horrors that follow every flag on every field of battle. It + is time that man was human—time that the beast was out of his heart. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of McKinley's inaugural? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It is good, honest, clear, patriotic and sensible. There is + one thing in it that touched me; I agree with him that lynching has to be + stopped. You see that now we are citizens of the United States, not simply + of the State in which we happen to live. I take the ground that it is the + business of the United States to protect its citizens, not only when they + are in some other country, but when they are at home. The United States + cannot discharge this obligation by allowing the States to do as they + please. Where citizens are being lynched the Government should interfere. + If the Governor of some barbarian State says that he cannot protect the + lives of citizens, then the United States should, if it took the entire + Army and Navy. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of charity organizations? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think that the people who support them are good and + generous—splendid—but I have a poor opinion of the people in + charge. As a rule, I think they are cold, impudent and heartless. There is + too much circumlocution, or too many details and too little humanity. The + Jews are exceedingly charitable. I think that in New York the men who are + doing the most for their fellow-men are Jews. Nathan Strauss is trying to + feed the hungry, warm the cold, and clothe the naked. For the most part, + organized charities are, I think, failures. A real charity has to be in + the control of a good man, a real sympathetic, a sensible man, one who + helps others to help themselves. Let a hungry man go to an organized + society and it requires several days to satisfy the officers that the man + is hungry. Meanwhile he will probably starve to death. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you believe in free text-books in the public schools? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not care about the text-book question. But I am in + favor of the public school. Nothing should be taught that somebody does + not know. No superstitions—nothing but science. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. There has been a good deal said lately about your suicide + theology, Colonel. Do you still believe that suicide is justifiable? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Certainly. When a man is useless to himself and to others + he has a right to determine what he will do about living. The only thing + to be considered is a man's obligation to his fellow- beings and to + himself. I don't take into consideration any supernatural nonsense. If God + wants a man to stay here he ought to make it more comfortable for him. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Since you expounded your justification of suicide, + Colonel, I believe you have had some cases of suicide laid at your door? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Oh, yes. Every suicide that has happened since that time + has been charged to me. I don't know how the people account for the + suicides before my time. I have not yet heard of my being charged with the + death of Cato, but that may yet come to pass. I was reading the other day + that the rate of suicide in Germany is increasing. I suppose my article + has been translated into German. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How about lying, Colonel? Is it ever right to lie? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course, sometimes. In war when a man is captured by the + enemy he ought to lie to them to mislead them. What we call strategy is + nothing more than lies. For the accomplishment of a good end, for + instance, the saving of a woman's reputation, it is many times perfectly + right to lie. As a rule, people ought to tell the truth. If it is right to + kill a man to save your own life it certainly ought to be right to fool + him for the same purpose. I would rather be deceived than killed, wouldn't + you? + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Inter-Ocean</i>, Chicago, Illinois, March, 1897. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0122" id="link0122"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + A VISIT TO SHAW'S GARDEN. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. I was told that you came to St. Louis on your wedding + trip some thirty years ago and went to Shaw's Garden? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes; we were married on the 13th of February, 1862. We were + here in St. Louis, and we did visit Shaw's Garden, and we thought it + perfectly beautiful. Afterward we visited the Kew Gardens in London, but + our remembrance of Shaw's left Kew in the shade. + </p> + <p> + Of course, I have been in St. Louis many times, my first visit being, I + think, in 1854. I have always liked the town. I was acquainted at one time + with a great many of your old citizens. Most of them have died, and I know + but few of the present generation. I used to stop at the old Planter's + House, and I was there quite often during the war. In those days I saw + Hackett as Falstaff, the best Falstaff that ever lived. Ben de Bar was + here then, and the Maddern sisters, and now the daughter of one of the + sisters, Minnie Maddern Fiske, is one of the greatest actresses in the + world. She has made a wonderful hit in New York this season. And so the + ebb and flow of life goes on—the old pass and the young arrive. + </p> + <p> + "Death and progress!" It may be that death is, after all, a great + blessing. Maybe it gives zest and flavor to life, ardor and flame to love. + At the same time I say, "long life" to all my friends. + </p> + <p> + I want to live—I get great happiness out of life. I enjoy the + company of my friends. I enjoy seeing the faces of the ones I love. I + enjoy art and music. I love Shakespeare and Burns; love to hear the music + of Wagner; love to see a good play. I take pleasure in eating and + sleeping. The fact is, I like to breathe. + </p> + <p> + I want to get all the happiness out of life that I can. I want to suck the + orange dry, so that when death comes nothing but the peelings will be + left, and so I say: "Long life!" + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Republic</i>, St. Louis, April 11, 1897. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0123" id="link0123"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THE VENEZUELAN BOUNDARY DISCUSSION AND THE WHIPPING-POST. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion as to the action of the President on + the Venezuelan matter? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In my judgment, the President acted in haste and without + thought. It may be said that it would have been well enough for him to + have laid the correspondence before Congress and asked for an + appropriation for a commission to ascertain the facts, to the end that our + Government might intelligently act. There was no propriety in going + further than that. To almost declare war before the facts were known was a + blunder—almost a crime. For my part, I do not think the Monroe + doctrine has anything to do with the case. Mr. Olney reasons badly, and it + is only by a perversion of facts, and an exaggeration of facts, and by + calling in question the motives of England that it is possible to conclude + that the Monroe doctrine has or can have anything to do with the + controversy. The President went out of his way to find a cause of quarrel. + Nobody doubts the courage of the American people, and we for that reason + can afford to be sensible and prudent. Valor and discretion should go + together. Nobody doubts the courage of England. + </p> + <p> + America and England are the leading nations, and in their keeping, to a + great extent, is the glory of the future. They should be at peace. Should + a difference arise it should be settled without recourse to war. + </p> + <p> + Fighting settles nothing but the relative strength. No light is thrown on + the cause of the conflict—on the question or fact that caused the + war. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think that there is any danger of war? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. If the members of Congress really represent the people, + then there is danger. But I do not believe the people will really want to + fight about a few square miles of malarial territory in Venezuela—something + in which they have no earthly or heavenly interest. The people do not wish + to fight for fight's sake. When they understand the question they will + regard the administration as almost insane. + </p> + <p> + The message has already cost us more than the War of 1812 or the Mexican + war, or both. Stocks and bonds have decreased in value several hundred + millions, and the end is not yet. It may be that it will, on account of + the panic, be impossible for the Government to maintain the gold standard—the + reserve. Then gold would command a premium, the Government would be unable + to redeem the greenbacks, and the result would be financial chaos, and all + this the result of Mr. Cleveland's curiosity about a boundary line between + two countries, in neither of which we have any interest, and this + curiosity has already cost us more than both countries, including the + boundary line, are worth. + </p> + <p> + The President made a great mistake. So did the House and Senate, and the + poor people have paid a part of the cost. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your opinion of the Gerry Whipping Post bill? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I see that it has passed the Senate, and yet I think it is + a disgrace to the State. How the Senators can go back to torture, to the + Dark Ages, to the custom of savagery, is beyond belief. I hope that the + House is nearer civilized, and that the infamous bill will be defeated. + If, however, the bill should pass, then I hope Governor Morton will veto + it. + </p> + <p> + Nothing is more disgusting, more degrading, than the whipping-post. It + degrades the whipped and the whipper. It degrades all who witness the + flogging. What kind of a person will do the whipping? Men who would apply + the lash to the naked backs of criminals would have to be as low as the + criminals, and probably a little lower. + </p> + <p> + The shadow of the whipping-post does not fall on any civilized country, + and never will. The next thing we know Mr. Gerry will probably introduce + some bill to brand criminals on the forehead or cut off their ears and + slit their noses. This is in the same line, and is born of the same + hellish spirit. There is no reforming power in torture, in bruising and + mangling the flesh. + </p> + <p> + If the bill becomes a law, I hope it will provide that the lash shall be + applied by Mr. Gerry and his successors in office. Let these pretended + enemies of cruelty enjoy themselves. If the bill passes, I presume Mr. + Gerry could get a supply of knouts from Russia, as that country has just + abolished the whipping-post. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Journal</i>, New York, December 24, 1895. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0124" id="link0124"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + COLONEL SHEPARD'S STAGE HORSES.* + </h2> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + [* One of Colonel Shepard's equine wrecks was picked up on + Fifth avenue yesterday by the Prevention of Cruelty Society, + and was laid up for repairs. The horse was about twenty- + eight years old, badly foundered, and its leg was cut and + bleeding. It was the leader of three that had been hauling + a Fifth avenue stage, and, according to the Society's + agents, was in about as bad a condition as a horse could be + and keep on his feet. The other two horses were little + better, neither of them being fit to drive. + + Colonel Shepard's scrawny nags have long been an eyesore to + Colonel Robert G. Ingersoll, who is compelled to see them + from his windows at number 400 Fifth avenue. He said last + night:] +</pre> + <p> + It might not be in good taste for me to say anything about Colonel + Shepard's horses. He might think me prejudiced. But I am satisfied horses + cannot live on faith or on the substance of things hoped for. It is far + better for the horse, to feed him without praying, than to pray without + feeding him. It is better to be kind even to animals, than to quote + Scripture in small capitals. Now, I am not saying anything against Colonel + Shepard. I do not know how he feeds his horses. If he is as good and kind + as he is pious, then I have nothing to say. Maybe he does not allow the + horses to break the Sabbath by eating. They are so slow that they make one + think of a fast. They put me in mind of the Garden of Eden—the rib + story. When I watch them on the avenue I, too, fall to quoting Scripture, + and say, "Can these dry bones live?" Still, I have a delicacy on this + subject; I hate to think about it, and I think the horses feel the same + way. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Morning Advertiser</i>, New York, January 21, 1892. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0125" id="link0125"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + A REPLY TO THE REV. L. A. BANKS. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Have you read the remarks made about you by the Rev. Mr. + Banks, and what do you think of what he said? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. The reverend gentleman pays me a great compliment by + comparing me to a circus. Everybody enjoys the circus. They love to see + the acrobats, the walkers on the tight rope, the beautiful girls on the + horses, and they laugh at the wit of the clowns. They are delighted with + the jugglers, with the music of the band. They drink the lemonade, eat the + colored popcorn and laugh until they nearly roll off their seats. Now the + circus has a few animals so that Christians can have an excuse for going. + Think of the joy the circus gives to the boys and girls. They look at the + show bills, see the men and women flying through the air, bursting through + paper hoops, the elephants standing on their heads, and the clowns, in + curious clothes, with hands on their knees and open mouths, supposed to be + filled with laughter. + </p> + <p> + All the boys and girls for many miles around know the blessed day. They + save their money, obey their parents, and when the circus comes they are + on hand. They see the procession and then they see the show. They are all + happy. No sermon ever pleased them as much, and in comparison even the + Sunday school is tame and dull. + </p> + <p> + To feel that I have given as much joy as the circus fills me with + pleasure. What chance would the Rev. Dr. Banks stand against a circus? + </p> + <p> + The reverend gentleman has done me a great honor, and I tender him my + sincere thanks. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Dr. Banks says that you write only one lecture a year, + while preachers write a brand new one every week—that if you did + that people would tire of you. What have you to say to that? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It may be that great artists paint only one picture a year, + and it may be that sign painters can do several jobs a day. Still, I would + not say that the sign painters were superior to the artists. There is + quite a difference between a sculptor and a stone-cutter. + </p> + <p> + There are thousands of preachers and thousands and thousands of sermons + preached every year. Has any orthodox minister in the year 1898 given just + one paragraph to literature? Has any orthodox preacher uttered one great + thought, clothed in perfect English that thrilled the hearers like music—one + great strophe that became one of the treasures of memory? + </p> + <p> + I will make the question a little clearer. Has any orthodox preacher, or + any preacher in an orthodox pulpit uttered a paragraph of what may be + called sculptured speech since Henry Ward Beecher died? I do not wonder + that the sermons are poor. Their doctrines have been discussed for + centuries. There is little chance for originality; they not only thresh + old straw, but the thresh straw that has been threshed a million times—straw + in which there has not been a grain of wheat for hundreds of years. No + wonder that they have nervous prostration. No wonder that they need + vacations, and no wonder that their congregations enjoy the vacations as + keenly as the ministers themselves. Better deliver a real good address + fifty-two times than fifty-two poor ones—just for the sake of + variety. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Dr. Banks says that the tendency at present is not toward + Agnosticism, but toward Christianity. What is your opinion? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. When I was a boy "Infidels" were very rare. A man who + denied the inspiration of the Bible was regarded as a monster. Now there + are in this country millions who regard the Bible as the work of ignorant + and superstitious men. A few years ago the Bible was the standard. All + scientific theories were tested by the Bible. Now science is the standard + and the Bible is tested by that. + </p> + <p> + Dr. Banks did not mention the names of the great scientists who are or + were Christians, but he probably thought of Laplace, Humboldt, Haeckel, + Huxley, Spencer, Tyndall, Darwin, Helmholtz and Draper. When he spoke of + Christian statesmen he likely thought of Jefferson, Franklin, Washington, + Paine and Lincoln—or he may have thought of Pierce, Fillmore and + Buchanan. + </p> + <p> + But, after all, there is no argument in names. A man is not necessarily + great because he holds office or wears a crown or talks in a pulpit. + Facts, reasons, are better than names. But it seems to me that nothing can + be plainer than that the church is losing ground—that the people are + discarding the creeds and that superstition has passed the zenith of its + power. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Dr. Banks says that Christ did not mention the Western + Hemisphere because God does nothing for men that they can do for + themselves. What have you to say? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Christ said nothing about the Western Hemisphere because he + did not know that it existed. He did not know the shape of the earth. He + was not a scientist—never even hinted at any science— never + told anybody to investigate—to think. His idea was that this life + should be spent in preparing for the next. For all the evils of this life, + and the next, faith was his remedy. + </p> + <p> + I see from the report in the paper that Dr. Banks, after making the + remarks about me preached a sermon on "Herod the Villain in the Drama of + Christ." Who made Herod? Dr. Banks will answer that God made him. Did God + know what Herod would do? Yes. Did he know that he would cause the + children to be slaughtered in his vain efforts to kill the infant Christ? + Yes. Dr. Banks will say that God is not responsible for Herod because he + gave Herod freedom. Did God know how Herod would use his freedom? Did he + know that he would become the villain in the drama of Christ? Yes. Who, + then, is really responsible for the acts of Herod? + </p> + <p> + If I could change a stone into a human being, and if I could give this + being freedom of will, and if I knew that if I made him he would murder a + man, and if with that knowledge I made him, and he did commit a murder, + who would be the real murderer? + </p> + <p> + Will Dr. Banks in his fifty-two sermons of next year show that his God is + not responsible for the crimes of Herod? + </p> + <p> + No doubt Dr. Banks is a good man, and no doubt he thinks that liberty of + thought leads to hell, and honestly believes that all doubt comes from the + Devil. I do not blame him. He thinks as he must. He is a product of + conditions. + </p> + <p> + He ought to be my friend because I am doing the best I can to civilize his + congregation. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Plain Dealer</i>, Cleveland, Ohio, 1898. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0126" id="link0126"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + CUBA—ZOLA AND THEOSOPHY. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think, Colonel, of the Cuban question? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. What I know about this question is known by all. I suppose + that the President has information that I know nothing about. Of course, + all my sympathies are with the Cubans. They are making a desperate—an + heroic struggle for their freedom. For many years they have been robbed + and trampled under foot. Spain is, and always has been, a terrible master—heartless + and infamous. There is no language with which to tell what Cuba has + suffered. In my judgment, this country should assist the Cubans. We ought + to acknowledge the independence of that island, and we ought to feed the + starving victims of Spain. For years we have been helping Spain. Cleveland + did all he could to prevent the Cubans from getting arms and men. This was + a criminal mistake—a mistake that even Spain did not appreciate. All + this should instantly be reversed, and we should give aid to Cuba. The war + that Spain is waging shocks every civilized man. Spain has always been the + same. In Holland, in Peru, in Mexico, she was infinitely cruel, and she is + the same to-day. She loves to torture, to imprison, to degrade, to kill. + Her idea of perfect happiness is to shed blood. Spain is a legacy of the + Dark Ages. She belongs to the den, the cave period. She has no business to + exist. She is a blot, a stain on the map of the world. Of course there are + some good Spaniards, but they are not in control. + </p> + <p> + I want Cuba to be free. I want Spain driven from the Western World. She + has already starved five hundred thousand Cubans—poor, helpless + non-combatants. Among the helpless she is like a hyena—a tiger among + lambs. This country ought to stop this gigantic crime. We should do this + in the name of humanity—for the sake of the starving, the dying. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think we are going to have war with Spain? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not think there will be war. Unless Spain is insane, + she will not attack the United States. She is bankrupt. No nation will + assist her. A civilized nation would be ashamed to take her hand, to be + her friend. She has not the power to put down the rebellion in Cuba. How + then can she hope to conquer this country? She is full of brag and + bluster. Of course she will play her hand for all it is worth, so far as + talk goes. She will double her fists and make motions. She will assume the + attitude of war, but she will never fight. Should she commence + hostilities, the war would be short. She would lose her navy. The little + commerce she has would be driven from the sea. She would drink to the + dregs the cup of humiliation and disgrace. I do not believe that Spain is + insane enough to fire upon our flag. I know that there is nothing too + mean, too cruel for her to do, but still she must have sense enough to try + and save her own life. No, I think there will be no war, but I believe + that Cuba will be free. My opinion is that the Maine was blown up from the + outside—blown up by Spanish officers, and I think the report of the + Board will be to that effect. Such a crime ought to redden even the cheeks + of Spain. As soon as this fact is known, other nations will regard Spain + with hatred and horror. If the Maine was destroyed by Spain we will ask + for indemnity. The people insist that the account be settled and at once. + Possibly we may attack Spain. There is the only danger of war. We must + avenge that crime. The destruction of two hundred and fifty-nine Americans + must be avenged. Free Cuba must be their monument. I hope for the sake of + human nature that the Spanish did not destroy the Maine. I hope it was the + result of an accident. I hope there is to be no war, but Spain must be + driven from the New World. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What about Zola's trial and conviction? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. It was one of the most infamous trials in the history of + the world. Zola is a great man, a genius, the best man in France. His + trial was a travesty on justice. The judge acted like a bandit. The + proceedings were a disgrace to human nature. The jurors must have been + ignorant beasts. The French have disgraced themselves. Long live Zola. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Having expressed yourself less upon the subject of + Theosophy than upon other religious beliefs, and as Theosophy denies the + existence of a God as worshiped by Christianity, what is your idea of the + creed? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Insanity. I think it is a mild form of delusion and + illusion; vague, misty, obscure, half dream, mixed with other mistakes and + fragments of facts—a little philosophy, absurdity— a few + impossibilities—some improbabilities—some accounts of events + that never happened—some prophecies that will not come to pass— + a structure without foundation. But the Theosophists are good people; kind + and honest. Theosophy is based on the supernatural and is just as absurd + as the orthodox creeds. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Courier-Journal</i>, Louisville, Ky., February, 1898. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0127" id="link0127"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + HOW TO BECOME AN ORATOR. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What advice would you give to a young man who was + ambitious to become a successful public speaker or orator? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In the first place, I would advise him to have something to + say—something worth saying—something that people would be glad + to hear. This is the important thing. Back of the art of speaking must be + the power to think. Without thoughts words are empty purses. Most people + imagine that almost any words uttered in a loud voice and accompanied by + appropriate gestures, constitute an oration. I would advise the young man + to study his subject, to find what others had thought, to look at it from + all sides. Then I would tell him to write out his thoughts or to arrange + them in his mind, so that he would know exactly what he was going to say. + Waste no time on the how until you are satisfied with the what. After you + know what you are to say, then you can think of how it should be said. + Then you can think about tone, emphasis, and gesture; but if you really + understand what you say, emphasis, tone, and gesture will take care of + themselves. All these should come from the inside. They should be in + perfect harmony with the feelings. Voice and gesture should be governed by + the emotions. They should unconsciously be in perfect agreement with the + sentiments. The orator should be true to his subject, should avoid any + reference to himself. + </p> + <p> + The great column of his argument should be unbroken. He can adorn it with + vines and flowers, but they should not be in such profusion as to hide the + column. He should give variety of episode by illustrations, but they + should be used only for the purpose of adding strength to the argument. + The man who wishes to become an orator should study language. He should + know the deeper meaning of words. He should understand the vigor and + velocity of verbs and the color of adjectives. He should know how to + sketch a scene, to paint a picture, to give life and action. He should be + a poet and a dramatist, a painter and an actor. He should cultivate his + imagination. He should become familiar with the great poetry and fiction, + with splendid and heroic deeds. He should be a student of Shakespeare. He + should read and devour the great plays. From Shakespeare he could learn + the art of expression, of compression, and all the secrets of the head and + heart. + </p> + <p> + The great orator is full of variety—of surprises. Like a juggler, he + keeps the colored balls in the air. He expresses himself in pictures. His + speech is a panorama. By continued change he holds the attention. The + interest does not flag. He does not allow himself to be anticipated. A + picture is shown but once. So, an orator should avoid the commonplace. + There should be no stuffing, no filling. He should put no cotton with his + silk, no common metals with his gold. He should remember that "gilded dust + is not as good as dusted gold." The great orator is honest, sincere. He + does not pretend. His brain and heart go together. Every drop of his blood + is convinced. Nothing is forced. He knows exactly what he wishes to do—knows + when he has finished it, and stops. + </p> + <p> + Only a great orator knows when and how to close. Most speakers go on after + they are through. They are satisfied only with a "lame and impotent + conclusion." Most speakers lack variety. They travel a straight and dusty + road. The great orator is full of episode. He convinces and charms by + indirection. He leaves the road, visits the fields, wanders in the woods, + listens to the murmurs of springs, the songs of birds. He gathers flowers, + scales the crags and comes back to the highway refreshed, invigorated. He + does not move in a straight line. He wanders and winds like a stream. + </p> + <p> + Of course, no one can tell a man what to do to become an orator. The great + orator has that wonderful thing called presence. He has that strange + something known as magnetism. He must have a flexible, musical voice, + capable of expressing the pathetic, the humorous, the heroic. His body + must move in unison with his thought. He must be a reasoner, a logician. + He must have a keen sense of humor —of the laughable. He must have + wit, sharp and quick. He must have sympathy. His smiles should be the + neighbors of his tears. He must have imagination. He should give eagles to + the air, and painted moths should flutter in the sunlight. + </p> + <p> + While I cannot tell a man what to do to become an orator, I can tell him a + few things not to do. There should be no introduction to an oration. The + orator should commence with his subject. There should be no prelude, no + flourish, no apology, no explanation. He should say nothing about himself. + Like a sculptor, he stands by his block of stone. Every stroke is for a + purpose. As he works the form begins to appear. When the statue is + finished the workman stops. Nothing is more difficult than a perfect + close. Few poems, few pieces of music, few novels end well. A good story, + a great speech, a perfect poem should end just at the proper point. The + bud, the blossom, the fruit. No delay. A great speech is a crystallization + in its logic, an efflorescence in its poetry. + </p> + <p> + I have not heard many speeches. Most of the great speakers in our country + were before my time. I heard Beecher, and he was an orator. He had + imagination, humor and intensity. His brain was as fertile as the valleys + of the tropics. He was too broad, too philosophic, too poetic for the + pulpit. Now and then, he broke the fetters of his creed, escaped from his + orthodox prison, and became sublime. + </p> + <p> + Theodore Parker was an orator. He preached great sermons. His sermons on + "Old Age" and "Webster," and his address on "Liberty" were filled with + great thoughts, marvelously expressed. When he dealt with human events, + with realities, with things he knew, he was superb. When he spoke of + freedom, of duty, of living to the ideal, of mental integrity, he seemed + inspired. + </p> + <p> + Webster I never heard. He had great qualities; force, dignity, clearness, + grandeur; but, after all, he worshiped the past. He kept his back to the + sunrise. There was no dawn in his brain. He was not creative. He had no + spirit of prophecy. He lighted no torch. He was not true to his ideal. He + talked sometimes as though his head was among the stars, but he stood in + the gutter. In the name of religion he tried to break the will of Stephen + Girard—to destroy the greatest charity in all the world; and in the + name of the same religion he defended the Fugitive Slave Law. His purpose + was the same in both cases. He wanted office. Yet he uttered a few very + great paragraphs, rich with thought, perfectly expressed. + </p> + <p> + Clay I never heard, but he must have had a commanding presence, a + chivalric bearing, an heroic voice. He cared little for the past. He was a + natural leader, a wonderful talker—forcible, persuasive, convincing. + He was not a poet, not a master of metaphor, but he was practical. He kept + in view the end to be accomplished. He was the opposite of Webster. Clay + was the morning, Webster the evening. Clay had large views, a wide + horizon. He was ample, vigorous, and a little tyrannical. + </p> + <p> + Benton was thoroughly commonplace. He never uttered an inspired word. He + was an intense egoist. No subject was great enough to make him forget + himself. Calhoun was a political Calvinist—narrow, logical, + dogmatic. He was not an orator. He delivered essays, not orations. I think + it was in 1851 that Kossuth visited this country. He was an orator. There + was no man, at that time, under our flag, who could speak English as well + as he. In the first speech I read of Kossuth's was this line: "Russia is + the rock against which the sigh for freedom breaks." In this you see the + poet, the painter, the orator. + </p> + <p> + S. S. Prentiss was an orator, but, with the recklessness of a gamester, he + threw his life away. He said profound and beautiful things, but he lacked + application. He was uneven, disproportioned, saying ordinary things on + great occasions, and now and then, without the slightest provocation, + uttering the sublimest and most beautiful thoughts. + </p> + <p> + In my judgment, Corwin was the greatest orator of them all. He had more + arrows in his quiver. He had genius. He was full of humor, pathos, wit, + and logic. He was an actor. His body talked. His meaning was in his eyes + and lips. Gov. O. P. Morton of Indiana had the greatest power of statement + of any man I ever heard. All the argument was in his statement. The facts + were perfectly grouped. The conclusion was a necessity. + </p> + <p> + The best political speech I ever heard was made by Gov. Richard J. Oglesby + of Illinois. It had every element of greatness—reason, humor, wit, + pathos, imagination, and perfect naturalness. That was in the grand years, + long ago. Lincoln had reason, wonderful humor, and wit, but his presence + was not good. His voice was poor, his gestures awkward—but his + thoughts were profound. His speech at Gettysburg is one of the + masterpieces of the world. The word "here" is used four or five times too + often. Leave the "heres" out, and the speech is perfect. + </p> + <p> + Of course, I have heard a great many talkers, but orators are few and far + between. They are produced by victorious nations—born in the midst + of great events, of marvelous achievements. They utter the thoughts, the + aspirations of their age. They clothe the children of the people in the + gorgeous robes of giants. The interpret the dreams. With the poets, they + prophesy. They fill the future with heroic forms, with lofty deeds. They + keep their faces toward the dawn—toward the ever-coming day. + </p> + <p> + —<i>New York Sun</i>, April, 1898. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0128" id="link0128"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + JOHN RUSSELL YOUNG AND EXPANSION. + </h2> + <h3> + <i>Question</i>. You knew John Russell Young, Colonel? + </h3> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, I knew him well and we were friends for many years. He + was a wonderfully intelligent man—knew something about everything, + had read most books worth reading. He was one of the truest friends. He + had a genius for friendship. He never failed to do a favor when he could, + and he never forgot a favor. He had the genius of gratitude. His mind was + keen, smooth, clear, and he really loved to think. I had the greatest + admiration for his character and I was shocked when I read of his death. I + did not know that he had been ill. All my heart goes out to his wife—a + lovely woman, now left alone with her boy. After all, life is a fearful + thing at best. The brighter the sunshine the deeper the shadow. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Are you in favor of expansion? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, I have always wanted more—I love to see the + Republic grow. I wanted the Sandwich Islands, wanted Porto Rico, and I + want Cuba if the Cubans want us. I want the Philippines if the Filipinos + want us—I do not want to conquer and enslave those people. The war + on the Filipinos is a great mistake—a blunder—almost a crime. + </p> + <p> + If the President had declared his policy, then, if his policy was right, + there was no need of war. The President should have told the Filipinos + just exactly what he wanted. It is a small business, after Dewey covered + Manila Bay with glory, to murder a lot of half- armed savages. We had no + right to buy, because Spain had no right to sell the Philippines. We + acquired no rights on those islands by whipping Spain. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Do you think the President should have stated his policy + in Boston the other day? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Yes, I think it would be better if he would unpack his + little budget—I like McKinley, but I liked him just as well before + he was President. He is a good man, not because he is President, but + because he is a man—you know that real honor must be earned— + people cannot give honor—honor is not alms—it is wages. So, + when a man is elected President the best thing he can do is to remain a + natural man. Yes, I wish McKinley would brush all his advisers to one side + and say his say; I believe his say would be right. + </p> + <p> + Now, don't change this interview and make me say something mean about + McKinley, because I like him. The other day, in Chicago, I had an + interview and I wrote it out. In that "interview" I said a few things + about the position of Senator Hoar. I tried to show that he was wrong—but + I took pains to express by admiration for Senator Hoar. When the interview + was published I was made to say that Senator Hoar was a mud-head. I never + said or thought anything of the kind. Don't treat me as that Chicago + reporter did. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of Atkinson's speech? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Well, some of it is good—but I never want to see the + soldiers of the Republic whipped. I am always on our side. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Press</i>, Philadelphia, February 20, 1899. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0129" id="link0129"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + PSYCHICAL RESEARCH AND THE BIBLE.* + </h2> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + [* As an incident in the life of any one favored with the + privilege, a visit to the home of Col. Robert G. Ingersoll + is certain to be recalled as a most pleasant and profitable + experience. Although not a sympathizer with the great + Agnostic's religious views, yet I have long admired his + ability, his humor, his intellectual honesty and courage. + And it was with gratification that I accepted the good + offices of a common friend who recently offered to introduce + me to the Ingersoll domestic circle in Gramercy Park. Here + I found the genial Colonel, surrounded by his children, his + grandchildren, and his amiable wife, whose smiling greeting + dispelled formality and breathed "Welcome" in every + syllable. The family relationship seemed absolutely ideal— + the very walls emitting an atmosphere of art and music, of + contentment and companionship, of mutual trust, happiness + and generosity. + + But my chief desire was to elicit Colonel Ingersoll's + personal views on questions related to the New Thought and + its attitude on matters on which he is known to have very + decided opinions. My request for a private chat was + cordially granted. During the conversation that ensued—(the + substance of which is presented to the readers of <i>Mind</i> in + the following paragraphs, with the Colonel's consent)—I was + impressed most deeply, not by the force of his arguments, + but by the sincerity of his convictions. Among some of his + more violent opponents, who presumably lack other + opportunities of becoming known, it is the fashion to accuse + Ingersoll of having really no belief in his own opinions. + But, if he convinced me of little else, he certainly, + without effort, satisfied my mind that this accusation is a + slander. Utterly mistaken in his views he may be; but if so, + his errors are more honest than many of those he points out + in the King James version of the Bible. If his pulpit + enemies could talk with this man by his own fireside, they + would pay less attention to Ingersoll himself and more to + what he says. They would consider his <i>meaning</i>, rather than + his motive. + + As the Colonel is the most conspicuous denunciator of + intolerance and bigotry in America, he has been inevitably + the greatest victim of these obstacles to mental freedom. + "To answer Ingersoll" is the pet ambition of many a young + clergyman—the older ones have either acquired prudence or + are broad enough to concede the utility of even Agnostics in + the economy of evolution. It was with the very subject that + we began our talk—the uncharitableness of men, otherwise + good, in their treatment of those whose religious views + differ from their own.] +</pre> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What is your conception of true intellectual hospitality? + As Truth can brook no compromises, has it not the same limitations that + surround social and domestic hospitality? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In the republic of mind we are all equals. Each one is + sceptered and crowned. Each one is the monarch of his own realm. By + "intellectual hospitality" I mean the right of every one to think and to + express his thought. It makes no difference whether his thought is right + or wrong. If you are intellectually hospitable you will admit the right of + every human being to see for himself; to hear with his own ears, see with + his own eyes, and think with his own brain. You will not try to change his + thought by force, by persecution, or by slander. You will not threaten him + with punishment—here or hereafter. You will give him your thought, + your reasons, your facts; and there you will stop. This is intellectual + hospitality. You do not give up what you believe to be the truth; you do + not compromise. You simply give him the liberty you claim for yourself. + The truth is not affected by your opinion or by his. Both may be wrong. + For many years the church has claimed to have the "truth," and has also + insisted that it is the duty of every man to believe it, whether it is + reasonable to him or not. This is bigotry in its basest form. Every man + should be guided by his reason; should be true to himself; should preserve + the veracity of his soul. Each human being should judge for himself. The + man that believes that all men have this right is intellectually + hospitable. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. In the sharp distinction between theology and religion + that is now recognized by many theologians, and in the liberalizing of the + church that has marked the last two decades, are not most of your + contentions already granted? Is not the "lake of fire and brimstone" an + obsolete issue? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. There has been in the last few years a great advance. The + orthodox creeds have been growing vulgar and cruel. Civilized people are + shocked at the dogma of eternal pain, and the belief in hell has mostly + faded away. The churches have not changed their creeds. They still pretend + to believe as they always have—but they have changed their tone. God + is now a father—a friend. He is no longer the monster, the savage, + described in the Bible. He has become somewhat civilized. He no longer + claims the right to damn us because he made us. But in spite of all the + errors and contradictions, in spite of the cruelties and absurdities found + in the Scriptures, the churches still insist that the Bible is <i>inspired</i>. + The educated ministers admit that the Pentateuch was not written by Moses; + that the Psalms were not written by David; that Isaiah was the work of at + least three; that Daniel was not written until after the prophecies + mentioned in that book had been fulfilled; that Ecclesiastes was not + written until the second century after Christ; that Solomon's Song was not + written by Solomon; that the book of Esther is of no importance; and that + no one knows, or pretends to know, who were the authors of Kings, Samuel, + Chronicles, or Job. And yet these same gentlemen still cling to the dogma + of inspiration! It is no longer claimed that the Bible is true—but + <i>inspired</i>. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Yet the sacred volume, no matter who wrote it, is a mine + of wealth to the student and the philosopher, is it not? Would you have us + discard it altogether? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Inspiration must be abandoned, and the Bible must take its + place among the books of the world. It contains some good passages, a + little poetry, some good sense, and some kindness; but its philosophy is + frightful. In fact, if the book had never existed I think it would have + been far better for mankind. It is not enough to give up the Bible; that + is only the beginning. The <i>supernatural</i> must be given up. It must + be admitted that Nature has no master; that there never has been any + interference from without; that man has received no help from heaven; and + that all the prayers that have ever been uttered have died unanswered in + the heedless air. The religion of the supernatural has been a curse. We + want the religion of usefulness. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. But have you no use whatever for prayer—even in the + sense of aspiration—or for faith, in the sense of confidence in the + ultimate triumph of the right? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. There is a difference between wishing, hoping, believing, + and—knowing. We can wish without evidence or probability, and we can + wish for the impossible—for what we believe can never be. We cannot + hope unless there is in the mind a possibility that the thing hoped for + can happen. We can believe only in accordance with evidence, and we know + only that which has been demonstrated. I have no use for prayer; but I do + a good deal of wishing and hoping. I hope that some time the right will + triumph—that Truth will gain the victory; but I have no faith in + gaining the assistance of any god, or of any supernatural power. I never + pray. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. However fully materialism, as a philosophy, may accord + with the merely human <i>reason</i>, is it not wholly antagonistic to the + instinctive faculties of the mind? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Human reason is the final arbiter. Any system that does not + commend itself to the reason must fall. I do not know exactly what you + mean by <i>materialism</i>. I do not know what matter is. I am satisfied, + however, that without matter there can be no force, no life, no thought, + no reason. It seems to me that mind is a form of force, and force cannot + exist apart from matter. If it is said that God created the universe, then + there must have been a time when he commenced to create. If at that time + there was nothing in existence but himself, how could he have exerted any + force? Force cannot be exerted except in opposition to force. If God was + the only existence, force could not have been exerted. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. But don't you think, Colonel, that the materialistic + philosophy, even in the light of your own interpretation, is essentially + pessimistic? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I do not consider it so. I believe that the pessimists and + the optimists are both right. This is the worst possible world, and this + is the best possible world—because it is as it must be. The present + is the child, and the necessary child, of all the past. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What have you to say concerning the operations of the + Society for Psychical Research? Do not its facts and conclusions prove, if + not immortality, at least the continuity of life beyond the grave? Are the + millions of Spiritualists deluded? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course I have heard and read a great deal about the + doings of the Society; so, I have some knowledge as to what is claimed by + Spiritualists, by Theosophists, and by all other believers in what are + called "spiritual manifestations." Thousands of wonderful tings have been + established by what is called "evidence" —the testimony of good men + and women. I have seen things done that I could not explain, both by + mediums and magicians. I also know that it is easy to deceive the senses, + and that the old saying "that seeing is believing" is subject to many + exceptions. I am perfectly satisfied that there is, and can be, no force + without matter; that everything that is—all phenomena—all + actions and thoughts, all exhibitions of force, have a material basis—that + nothing exists,—ever did, or ever will exist, apart from matter. So + I am satisfied that no matter ever existed, or ever will, apart from + force. + </p> + <p> + We think with the same force with which we walk. For every action and for + every thought, we draw upon the store of force that we have gained from + air and food. We create no force; we borrow it all. As force cannot exist + apart from matter, it must be used <i>with</i> matter. It travels only on + material roads. It is impossible to convey a thought to another without + the assistance of matter. No one can conceive of the use of one of our + senses without substance. No one can conceive of a thought in the absence + of the senses. With these conclusions in my mind—in my brain—I + have not the slightest confidence in "spiritual manifestations," and do + not believe that any message has ever been received from the dead. The + testimony that I have heard—that I have read—coming even from + men of science—has not the slightest weight with me. I do not + pretend to see beyond the grave. I do not say that man is, or is not, + immortal. All I say is that there is no evidence that we live again, and + no demonstration that we do not. It is better ignorantly to hope than + dishonestly to affirm. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. And what do you think of the modern development of + metaphysics—as expressed outside of the emotional and semi- + ecclesiastical schools? I refer especially to the power of mind in the + curing of disease—as demonstrated by scores of drugless healers. + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I have no doubt that the condition of the mind has some + effect upon the health. The blood, the heart, the lungs answer— + respond to—emotion. There is no mind without body, and the body is + affected by thought—by passion, by cheerfulness, by depression. + Still, I have not the slightest confidence in what is called "mind cure." + I do not believe that thought, or any set of ideas, can cure a cancer, or + prevent the hair from falling out, or remove a tumor, or even freckles. At + the same time, I admit that cheerfulness is good and depression bad. But I + have no confidence in what you call "drugless healers." If the stomach is + sour, soda is better than thinking. If one is in great pain, opium will + beat meditation. I am a believer in what you call "drugs," and when I am + sick I send for a physician. I have no confidence in the supernatural. + Magic is not medicine. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. One great object of this movement, is to make religion + scientific—an aid to intellectual as well as spiritual progress. Is + it not thus to be encouraged, and destined to succeed—even though it + prove the reality and supremacy of the spirit and the secondary importance + of the flesh? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. When religion becomes scientific, it ceases to be religion + and becomes science. Religion is not intellectual—it is emotional. + It does not appeal to the reason. The founder of a religion has always + said: "Let him that hath ears to hear, hear!" No founder has said: "Let + him that hath brains to think, think!" Besides, we need not trouble + ourselves about "spirit" and "flesh." We know that we know of no spirit—without + flesh. We have no evidence that spirit ever did or ever will exist apart + from flesh. Such existence is absolutely inconceivable. If we are going to + construct what you call a "religion," it must be founded on observed and + known facts. Theories, to be of value, must be in accord with all the + facts that are known; otherwise they are worthless. We need not try to get + back of facts or behind the truth. The <i>why</i> will forever elude us. + You cannot move your hand quickly enough to grasp your image back of the + mirror. + </p> + <p> + —<i>Mind</i>, New York, March, 1899. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0130" id="link0130"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + THIS CENTURY'S GLORIES. + </h2> + <p> + The laurel of the nineteenth century is on Darwin's brow. This century has + been the greatest of all. The inventions, the discoveries, the victories + on the fields of thought, the advances in nearly every direction of human + effort are without parallel in human history. In only two directions have + the achievements of this century been excelled. The marbles of Greece have + not been equalled. They still occupy the niches dedicated to perfection. + They sculptors of our century stand before the miracles of the Greeks in + impotent wonder. They cannot even copy. They cannot give the breath of + life to stone and make the marble feel and think. The plays of Shakespeare + have never been approached. He reached the summit, filled the horizon. In + the direction of the dramatic, the poetic, the human mind, in my judgment, + in Shakespeare's plays reached its limit. The field was harvested, all the + secrets of the heart were told. The buds of all hopes blossomed, all seas + were crossed and all the shores were touched. + </p> + <p> + With these two exceptions, the Grecian marbles and the Shakespeare plays, + the nineteenth century has produced more for the benefit of man than all + the centuries of the past. In this century, in one direction, I think the + mind has reached the limit. I do not believe the music of Wagner will ever + be excelled. He changed all passions, longing, memories and aspirations + into tones, and with subtle harmonies wove tapestries of sound, whereon + were pictured the past and future, the history and prophecy of the human + heart. Of course Copernicus, Galileo, Newton and Kepler laid the + foundations of astronomy. It may be that the three laws of Kepler mark the + highest point in that direction that the mind has reached. + </p> + <p> + In the other centuries there is now and then a peak, but through ours + there runs a mountain range with Alp on Alp—the steamship that has + conquered all the seas; the railway, with its steeds of steel with breath + of flame, covers the land; the cables and telegraphs, along which + lightning is the carrier of thought, have made the nations neighbors and + brought the world to every home; the making of paper from wood, the + printing presses that made it possible to give the history of the human + race each day; the reapers, mowers and threshers that superseded the + cradles, scythes and flails; the lighting of streets and houses with gas + and incandescent lamps, changing night into day; the invention of matches + that made fire the companion of man; the process of making steel, invented + by Bessemer, saving for the world hundreds of millions a year; the + discovery of anesthetics, changing pain to happy dreams and making surgery + a science; the spectrum analysis, that told us the secrets of the suns; + the telephone, that transports speech, uniting lips and ears; the + phonograph, that holds in dots and marks the echoes of our words; the + marvelous machines that spin and weave, that manufacture the countless + things of use, the marvelous machines, whose wheels and levers seem to + think; the discoveries in chemistry, the wave theory of light, the + indestructibility of matter and force; the discovery of microbes and + bacilli, so that now the plague can be stayed without the assistance of + priests. + </p> + <p> + The art of photography became known, the sun became an artist, gave us the + faces of our friends, copies of the great paintings and statues, pictures + of the world's wonders, and enriched the eyes of poverty with the spoil of + travel, the wealth of art. The cell theory was advanced, embryology was + studied and science entered the secret house of life. The biologists, + guided by fossil forms, followed the paths of life from protoplasm up to + man. Then came Darwin with the "Origin of Species," "Natural Selection," + and the "Survival of the Fittest." From his brain there came a flood of + light. The old theories grew foolish and absurd. The temple of every + science was rebuilt. That which had been called philosophy became childish + superstition. The prison doors were opened and millions of convicts, of + unconscious slaves, roved with joy over the fenceless fields of freedom. + Darwin and Haeckel and Huxley and their fellow-workers filled the night of + ignorance with the glittering stars of truth. This is Darwin's victory. He + gained the greatest victory, the grandest triumph. The laurel of the + nineteenth century is on his brow. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. How does the literature of to-day compare with that of + the first half of the century, in your opinion? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. There is now no poet of laughter and tears, of comedy and + pathos, the equal of Hood. There is none with the subtle delicacy, the + aerial footstep, the flame-like motion of Shelley; none with the + amplitude, sweep and passion, with the strength and beauty, the courage + and royal recklessness of Byron. The novelists of our day are not the + equals of Dickens. In my judgment, Dickens wrote the greatest of all + novels. "The Tale of Two Cities" is the supreme work of fiction. Its + philosophy is perfect. The characters stand out like living statues. In + its pages you find the blood and flame, the ferocity and self-sacrifice of + the French Revolution. In the bosom of the Vengeance is the heart of the + horror. In 105, North Tower, sits one whom sorrow drove beyond the verge, + rescued from death by insanity, and we see the spirit of Dr. Manette + tremblingly cross the great gulf that lies between the night of dreams and + the blessed day, where things are as they seem, as a tress of golden hair, + while on his hands and cheeks fall Lucie's blessed tears. The story is + filled with lights and shadows, with the tragic and grotesque. While the + woman knits, while the heads fall, Jerry Cruncher gnaws his rusty nails + and his poor wife "flops" against his business, and prim Miss Pross, who + in the desperation and terror of love held Mme. Defarge in her arms and + who in the flash and crash found that her burden was dead, is drawn by the + hand of a master. And what shall I say of Sidney Carton? Of his last walk? + Of his last ride, holding the poor girl by the hand? Is there a more + wonderful character in all the realm of fiction? Sidney Carton, the + perfect lover, going to his death for the love of one who loves another. + To me the three greatest novels are "The Tale of Two Cities," by Dickens, + "Les Miserables," by Hugo, and "Ariadne," by Ouida. + </p> + <p> + "Les Miserables" is full of faults and perfections. The tragic is + sometimes pushed to the grotesque, but from the depths it brings the + pearls of truth. A convict becomes holier than the saint, a prostitute + purer than the nun. This book fills the gutter with the glory of heaven, + while the waters of the sewer reflect the stars. + </p> + <p> + In "Ariadne" you find the aroma of all art. It is a classic dream. And + there, too, you find the hot blood of full and ample life. Ouida is the + greatest living writer of fiction. Some of her books I do not like. If you + wish to know what Ouida really is, read "Wanda," "The Dog of Flanders," + "The Leaf in a Storm." In these you will hear the beating of her heart. + </p> + <p> + Most of the novelists of our time write good stories. They are ingenious, + the characters are well drawn, but they lack life, energy. They do not + appear to act for themselves, impelled by inner force. They seem to be + pushed and pulled. The same may be said of the poets. Tennyson belongs to + the latter half of our century. He was undoubtedly a great writer. He had + no flame or storm, no tidal wave, nothing volcanic. He never overflowed + the banks. He wrote nothing as intense, as noble and pathetic as the + "Prisoner of Chillon;" nothing as purely poetic as "The Skylark;" nothing + as perfect as the "Grecian Urn," and yet he was one of the greatest of + poets. Viewed from all sides he was far greater than Shelley, far nobler + than Keats. In a few poems Shelley reached almost the perfect, but many + are weak, feeble, fragmentary, almost meaningless. So Keats in three poems + reached a great height—in "St. Agnes' Eve," "The Grecian Urn," and + "The Nightingale"—but most of his poetry is insipid, without + thought, beauty or sincerity. + </p> + <p> + We have had some poets ourselves. Emerson wrote many poetic and + philosophic lines. He never violated any rule. He kept his passions under + control and generally "kept off the grass." But he uttered some great and + splendid truths and sowed countless seeds of suggestion. When we remember + that he came of a line of New England preachers we are amazed at the + breadth, the depth and the freedom of his thought. + </p> + <p> + Walt Whitman wrote a few great poems, elemental, natural—poems that + seem to be a part of nature, ample as the sky, having the rhythm of the + tides, the swing of a planet. + </p> + <p> + Whitcomb Riley has written poems of hearth and home, of love and labor + worthy of Robert Burns. He is the sweetest, strongest singer in our + country and I do not know his equal in any land. + </p> + <p> + But when we compare the literature of the first half of this century with + that of the last, we are compelled to say that the last, taken as a whole, + is best. Think of the volumes that science has given to the world. In the + first half of this century, sermons, orthodox sermons, were published and + read. Now reading sermons is one of the lost habits. Taken as a whole, the + literature of the latter half of our century is better than the first. I + like the essays of Prof. Clifford. They are so clear, so logical that they + are poetic. Herbert Spencer is not simply instructive, he is charming. He + is full of true imagination. He is not the slave of imagination. + Imagination is his servant. Huxley wrote like a trained swordsman. His + thrusts were never parried. He had superb courage. He never apologized for + having an opinion. There was never on his soul the stain of evasion. He + was as candid as the truth. Haeckel is a great writer because he reveres a + fact, and would not for his life deny or misinterpret one. He tells what + he knows with the candor of a child and defends his conclusions like a + scientist, a philosopher. He stands next to Darwin. + </p> + <p> + Coming back to fiction and poetry, I have great admiration for Edgar + Fawcett. There is in his poetry thought, beauty and philosophy. He has the + courage of his thought. He knows our language, the energy of verbs, the + color of adjectives. He is in the highest sense an artist. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of Hall Caine's recent efforts to bring + about a closer union between the stage and pulpit? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Of course, I am not certain as to the intentions of Mr. + Caine. I saw "The Christian," and it did not seem to me that the author + was trying to catch the clergy. + </p> + <p> + There is certainly nothing in the play calculated to please the pulpit. + There is a clergyman who is pious and heartless. John Storm is the only + Christian, and he is crazy. When Glory accepts him at last, you not only + feel, but you know she has acted the fool. The lord in the piece is a dog, + and the real gentleman is the chap that runs the music hall. How the play + can please the pulpit I do not see. Storm's whole career is a failure. His + followers turn on him like wild beasts. His religion is a divine and + diabolical dream. With him murder is one of the means of salvation. Mr. + Caine has struck Christianity a stinging blow between the eyes. He has put + two preachers on the stage, one a heartless hypocrite and the other a + madman. Certainly I am not prejudiced in favor of Christianity, and yet I + enjoyed the play. If Mr. Caine says he is trying to bring the stage and + the pulpit together, then he is a humorist, with the humor of Rabelais. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do recent exhibitions in this city, of scenes from + the life of Christ, indicate with regard to the tendencies of modern art? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Nothing. Some artists love the sombre, the melancholy, the + hopeless. They enjoy painting the bowed form, the tear-filled eyes. To + them grief is a festival. There are people who find pleasure in funerals. + They love to watch the mourners. The falling clods make music. They love + the silence, the heavy odors, the sorrowful hymns and the preacher's + remarks. The feelings of such people do not indicate the general trend of + the human mind. Even a poor artist may hope for success if he represents + something in which many millions are deeply interested, around which their + emotions cling like vines. A man need not be an orator to make a patriotic + speech, a speech that flatters his audience. So, an artist need not be + great in order to satisfy, if his subject appeals to the prejudice of + those who look at his pictures. + </p> + <p> + I have never seen a good painting of Christ. All the Christs that I have + seen lack strength and character. They look weak and despairing. They are + all unhealthy. They have the attitude of apology, the sickly smile of + non-resistance. I have never seen an heroic, serene and triumphant Christ. + To tell the truth, I never saw a great religious picture. They lack + sincerity. All the angels look almost idiotic. In their eyes is no + thought, only the innocence of ignorance. + </p> + <p> + I think that art is leaving the celestial, the angelic, and is getting in + love with the natural, the human. Troyon put more genius in the + representation of cattle than Angelo and Raphael did in angels. No picture + has been painted of heaven that is as beautiful as a landscape by Corot. + The aim of art is to represent the realities, the highest and noblest, the + most beautiful. The Greeks did not try to make men like gods, but they + made gods like men. So that great artists of our day go to nature. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Is it not strange that, with one exception, the most + notable operas written since Wagner are by Italian composers instead of + German? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. For many years German musicians insisted that Wagner was + not a composer. They declared that he produced only a succession of + discordant noises. I account for this by the fact that the music of Wagner + was not German. His countrymen could not understand it. They had to be + educated. There was no orchestra in Germany that could really play + "Tristan and Isolde." Its eloquence, its pathos, its shoreless passion was + beyond them. There is no reason to suppose that Germany is to produce + another Wagner. Is England expected to give us another Shakespeare? + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Sun</i>, New York, March 19, 1899. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0131" id="link0131"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + CAPITAL PUNISHMENT AND THE WHIPPING-POST. + </h2> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What do you think of Governor Roosevelt's decision in the + case of Mrs. Place? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I think the refusal of Governor Roosevelt to commute the + sentence of Mrs. Place is a disgrace to the State. What a spectacle of man + killing a woman—taking a poor, pallid, frightened woman, strapping + her to a chair and then arranging the apparatus so she can be shocked to + death. Many call this a Christian country. A good many people who believe + in hell would naturally feel it their duty to kill a wretched, insane + woman. + </p> + <p> + Society has a right to protect itself, but this can be done by + imprisonment, and it is more humane to put a criminal in a cell than in a + grave. Capital punishment degrades and hardens a community and it is a + work of savagery. It is savagery. Capital punishment does not prevent + murder, but sets an example—an example by the State—that is + followed by its citizens. The State murders its enemies and the citizen + murders his. Any punishment that degrades the punished, must necessarily + degrade the one inflicting the punishment. No punishment should be + inflicted by a human being that could not be inflicted by a gentleman. + </p> + <p> + For instance, take the whipping-post. Some people are in favor of flogging + because they say that some offences are of such a frightful nature that + flogging is the only punishment. They forget that the punishment must be + inflicted by somebody, and that somebody is a low and contemptible cur. I + understand that John G. Shortall, president of the Humane Society of + Illinois, has had a bill introduced into the Legislature of the State for + the establishment of the whipping-post. + </p> + <p> + The shadow of that post would disgrace and darken the whole State. Nothing + could be more infamous, and yet this man is president of the Humane + Society. Now, the question arises, what is humane about this society? + Certainly not its president. Undoubtedly he is sincere. Certainly no man + would take that position unless he was sincere. Nobody deliberately + pretends to be bad, but the idea of his being president of the Humane + Society is simply preposterous. With his idea about the whipping-post he + might join a society of hyenas for the cultivation of ferocity, for + certainly nothing short of that would do justice to his bill. I have too + much confidence in the legislators of that State, and maybe my confidence + rests in the fact that I do not know them, to think that the passage of + such a bill is possible. If it were passed I think I would be justified in + using the language of the old Marylander, who said, "I have lived in + Maryland fifty years, but I have never counted them, and my hope is, that + God won't." + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. What did you think of the late Joseph Medill? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. I was not very well acquainted with Mr. Medill. I had a + good many conversations with him, and I was quite familiar with his work. + I regard him as the greatest editor of the Northwestern States and I am + not sure that there was a greater one in the country. He was one of the + builders of the Republican party. He was on the right side of the great + question of Liberty. He was a man of strong likes and I may say dislikes. + He never surrendered his personality. The atom called Joseph Medill was + never lost in the aggregation known as the Republican party. He was true + to that party when it was true to him. As a rule he traveled a road of his + own and he never seemed to have any doubt about where the road led. I + think that he was an exceedingly useful man. I think the only true + religion is usefulness. He was a very strong writer, and when touched by + friendship for a man, or a cause, he occasionally wrote very great + paragraphs, and paragraphs full of force and most admirably expressed. + </p> + <p> + —<i>The Tribune</i>, Chicago, March 19, 1899. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link0132" id="link0132"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> + <h2> + EXPANSION AND TRUSTS.* + </h2> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + [* This was Colonel Ingersoll's last interview.] +</pre> + <p> + I am an expansionist. The country has the land hunger and expansion is + popular. I want all we can honestly get. + </p> + <p> + But I do not want the Philippines unless the Filipinos want us, and I feel + exactly the same about the Cubans. + </p> + <p> + We paid twenty millions of dollars to Spain for the Philippine Islands, + and we knew that Spain had no title to them. + </p> + <p> + The question with me is not one of trade or convenience; it is a question + of right or wrong. I think the best patriot is the man who wants his + country to do right. + </p> + <p> + The Philippines would be a very valuable possession to us, in view of + their proximity to China. But, however desirable they may be, that cuts no + figure. We must do right. We must act nobly toward the Filipinos, whether + we get the islands or not. + </p> + <p> + I would like to see peace between us and the Filipinos; peace honorable to + both; peace based on reason instead of force. + </p> + <p> + If control had been given to Dewey, if Miles had been sent to Manila, I do + not believe that a shot would have been fired at the Filipinos, and that + they would have welcomed the American flag. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Although you are not in favor of taking the Philippines + by force, how do you regard the administration in its conduct of the war? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. They have made many mistakes at Washington, and they are + still making many. If it has been decided to conquer the Filipinos, then + conquer them at once. Let the struggle not be drawn out and the drops of + blood multiplied. The Republican party is being weakened by inaction at + the Capital. If the war is not ended shortly, the party in power will feel + the evil effects at the presidential election. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. In what light do you regard the Philippines as an + addition to the territory of the United States? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Probably in the future, and possibly in the near future, + the value of the islands to this country could hardly be calculated. The + division of China which is bound to come, will open a market of four + hundred millions of people. Naturally a possession close to the open doors + of the East would be of an almost incalculable value to this country. + </p> + <p> + It might perhaps take a long time to teach the Chinese that they need our + products. But suppose that the Chinese came to look upon wheat in the same + light that other people look upon wheat and its product, bread? What an + immense amount of grain it would take to feed four hundred million hungry + Chinamen! + </p> + <p> + The same would be the case with the rest of our products. So you will + perhaps agree with me in my view of the immense value of the islands if + they could but be obtained by honorable means. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. If the Democratic party makes anti-imperialism the + prominent plank in its platform, what effect will it have on the party's + chance for success? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. Anti-imperialism, as the Democratic battle-cry, would + greatly weaken a party already very weak. It is the most unpopular issue + of the day. The people want expansion. The country is infected with + patriotic enthusiasm. The party that tries to resist the tidal wave will + be swept away. Anybody who looks can see. + </p> + <p> + Let a band at any of the summer resorts or at the suburban breathing spots + play a patriotic air. The listeners are electrified, and they rise and off + go their hats when "The Star-Spangled Banner" is struck up. Imperialism + cannot be fought with success. + </p> + <p> + <i>Question</i>. Will the Democratic party have a strong issue in its + anti-trust cry? + </p> + <p> + <i>Answer</i>. In my opinion, both parties will nail anti-trust planks in + their platforms. But this talk is all bosh with both parties. Neither one + is honest in its cry against trusts. The one making the more noise in this + direction may get the votes of some unthinking persons, but every one who + is capable of reading and digesting what he reads, knows full well that + the leaders of neither party are sincere and honest in their + demonstrations against the trusts. + </p> + <p> + Why should the Democratic party lay claim to any anti-trust glory? Is it + not a Republican administration that is at present investigating the + alleged evils of trusts? + </p> + <p> + —<i>The North American</i>, Philadelphia, June 22, 1899. + </p> + <div style="height: 6em;"> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + <table summary="" border="3" cellpadding="4"> + <tbody> + <tr> + <td> + <big><big><a + href="http://www.gutenberg.org/files/38813/38813-h/38813-h.htm"> + TABLE OF CONTENTS FOR ALL 12 EBOOKS IN THIS SET</a></big></big> + </td> + <td></td> + </tr> + </tbody> + </table> + <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> + </div> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + + + + + +End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of The Works of Robert G. Ingersoll, Vol. +8 (of 12), by Robert G. 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