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diff --git a/38805-8.txt b/38805-8.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..1e898fe --- /dev/null +++ b/38805-8.txt @@ -0,0 +1,16105 @@ +The Project Gutenberg EBook of The Works of Robert G. Ingersoll, Vol. 5 +(of 12), by Robert G. Ingersoll + +This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with +almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or +re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included +with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org + + +Title: The Works of Robert G. Ingersoll, Vol. 5 (of 12) + Dresden Edition--Discussions + +Author: Robert G. Ingersoll + +Release Date: February 9, 2012 [EBook #38805] + +Language: English + +Character set encoding: ISO-8859-1 + +*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WORKS OF INGERSOLL *** + + + + +Produced by David Widger + + + + + + + + +THE WORKS OF Robert G. Ingersoll + +"There Can Be But Little Liberty On Earth +While Men Worship A Tyrant In Heaven." + +In Twelve Volumes, Volume V. + +DISCUSSIONS + +1900 + + +DRESDEN EDITION + + + + +CONTENTS OF VOLUME V. + +SIX INTERVIEWS ON TALMAGE. + +(1882.) + +Preface--First Interview: Great Men as Witnesses +to the Truth of the Gospel--No man should quote +the Words of Another unless he is willing to +Accept all the Opinions of that Man--Reasons of +more Weight than Reputations--Would a general +Acceptance of Unbelief fill the Penitentiaries?-- +My Creed--Most Criminals Orthodox--Relig-ion and +Morality not Necessarily Associates--On the +Creation of the Universe out of Omnipotence--Mr. +Talmage's Theory about the Pro-duction of Light +prior to the Creation of the Sun--The Deluge and +the Ark--Mr. Talmage's tendency to Belittle the +Bible Miracles--His Chemical, Geological, and +Agricultural Views--His Disregard of Good Manners- +-Second Interview: An Insulting Text--God's Design +in Creating Guiteau to be the Assassin of +Garfield--Mr. Talmage brings the Charge of +Blasphemy--Some Real Blasphemers--The Tabernacle +Pastor tells the exact Opposite of the Truth about +Col. Ingersoll's Attitude toward the Circulation +of Immoral Books--"Assassinating" God--Mr. +Talmage finds Nearly All the Invention of Modern +Times Mentioned in the Bible--The Reverend +Gentleman corrects the Translators of the Bible in +the Matter of the Rib Story--Denies that Polygamy +is permitted by the Old Testament--His De-fence of +Queen Victoria and Violation of the Grave of +George Eliot--Exhibits a Christian Spirit--Third +Interview: Mr. Talmage's Partiality in the +Bestowal of his Love--Denies the Right of Laymen +to Examine the Scriptures--Thinks the Infidels +Victims of Bibliophobia --He explains the Stopping +of the Sun and Moon at the Command of Joshua-- +Instances a Dark Day in the Early Part of the +Century--Charges that Holy Things are Made Light +of--Reaffirms his Confidence in the Whale and +Jonah Story--The Commandment which Forbids the +making of Graven Images--Affirmation that the +Bible is the Friend of Woman--The Present +Condition of Woman--Fourth Interview: Colonel +Ingersoll Compared by Mr. Talmage tojehoiakim, who +Consigned Writings of Jeremiah to the Flames--An +Intimation that Infidels wish to have all copies +of the Bible Destroyed by Fire--Laughter +Deprecated--Col. Ingersoll Accused of Denouncing +his Father--Mr. Talmage holds that a Man may be +Perfectly Happy in Heaven with His Mother in Hell- +-Challenges the Infidel to Read a Chapter from St. +John--On the "Chief Solace of the World"--Dis- +covers an Attempt is being made to Put Out the +Light-houses of the Farther Shore--Affirms our +Debt to Christianity for Schools, Hospitals, +etc.--Denies that Infidels have ever Done any +Good-- + +Fifth Interview: Inquiries if Men gather Grapes of +Thorns, or Figs of Thistles, and is Answered in +the Negative--Resents the Charge that the Bible is +a Cruel Book--Demands to Know where the Cruelty of +the Bible Crops out in the Lives of Christians-- +Col. Ingersoll Accused of saying that the Bible +is a Collection of Polluted Writings--Mr. Talmage +Asserts the Orchestral Harmony of the Scriptures +from Genesis to Revelation, and Repudiates the +Theory of Contradictions--His View of Mankind +Indicated in Quotations from his Confession of +Faith--He Insists that the Bible is Scientific-- +Traces the New Testament to its Source with St. +John--Pledges his Word that no Man ever Died for a +Lie Cheerfully and Triumphantly--As to Prophecies +and Predictions--Alleged "Prophetic" Fate of the +Jewish People--Sixth Interview: Dr. Talmage takes +the Ground that the Unrivalled Circulation of the +Bible Proves that it is Inspired--Forgets' that a +Scientific Fact does not depend on the Vote of +Numbers--Names some Christian Millions--His +Arguments Characterized as the Poor-est, Weakest, +and Best Possible in Support of the Doctrine of +Inspira-tion--Will God, in Judging a Man, take +into Consideration the Cir-cumstances of that +Man's Life?--Satisfactory Reasons for Not Believ- +ing that the Bible is inspired. + + +THE TALMAGIAN CATECHISM. + +The Pith and Marrow of what Mr. Talmage has been +Pleased to Say, set forth in the form of a Shorter +Catechism. + + +A VINDICATION OF THOMAS PAINE. + +(1877.) + +Letter to the New York Observer--An Offer to Pay +One Thousand Dollars in Gold for Proof that Thomas +Paine or Voltaire Died in Terror because of any +Religious Opinions Either had Expressed-- +Proposition to Create a Tribunal to Hear the +Evidence--The Ob-server, after having Called upon +Col. Ingersoll to Deposit the Money, and +Characterized his Talk as "Infidel 'Buncombe,'" +Denies its Own Words, but attempts to Prove them-- +Its Memory Refreshed by Col. Ingersoll and the +Slander Refuted--Proof that Paine did Not Recant - +-Testimony of Thomas Nixon, Daniel Pelton, Mr. +Jarvis, B. F. Has-kin, Dr. Manley, Amasa +Woodsworth, Gilbert Vale, Philip Graves, M. D., +Willet Hicks, A. C. Hankinson, John Hogeboom, W. +J. Hilton, Tames Cheetham, Revs. Milledollar and +Cunningham, Mrs. Hedden, Andrew A. Dean, William +Carver,--The Statements of Mary Roscoe and Mary +Hindsdale Examined--William Cobbett's Account of a +Call upon Mary Hinsdale--Did Thomas Paine live the +Life of a Drunken Beast, and did he Die a Drunken, +Cowardly, and Beastly Death?--Grant Thorbum's +Charges Examined--Statement of the Rev. J. D. +Wickham, D.D., shown to be Utterly False--False +Witness of the Rev. Charles Hawley, D.D.--W. H. +Ladd, James Cheetham, and Mary Hinsdale--Paine's +Note to Cheetham--Mr-Staple, Mr. Purdy, Col. John +Fellows, James Wilburn, Walter Morton, Clio +Rickman, Judge Herttell, H. Margary, Elihu Palmer, +Mr. + +XV + +Lovett, all these Testified that Paine was a +Temperate Man--Washington's Letter to Paine-- +Thomas Jefferson's--Adams and Washing-ton on +"Common Sense"---James Monroe's Tribute-- +Quotations from Paine--Paine's Estate and His +Will--The Observer's Second Attack (p. 492): +Statements of Elkana Watson, William Carver, Rev. +E. F. Hatfield, D.D., James Cheetham, Dr. J. W. +Francis, Dr. Manley, Bishop Fenwick--Ingersoll's +Second Reply (p. 516): Testimony Garbled by the +Editor of the Observer--Mary Roscoeand Mary Hins- +dale the Same Person--Her Reputation for Veracity- +-Letter from Rev. A. W. Cornell--Grant Thorburn +Exposed by James Parton--The Observer's Admission +that Paine did not Recant--Affidavit of + +William B. Barnes. + + + + +PREFACE. + +SEVERAL people, having read the sermons of +Mr. Talmage in which he reviews some of my +lectures, have advised me not to pay the slightest +attention to the Brooklyn divine. They think that +no new arguments have been brought forward, and +they have even gone so far as to say that some of +the best of the old ones have been left out. + +After thinking the matter over, I became satisfied +that my friends were mistaken, that they had been car- +ried away by the general current of modern thought, +and were not in a frame of mind to feel the force +of the arguments of Mr. Talmage, or to clearly see +the candor that characterizes his utterances. + +At the first reading, the logic of these sermons does +not impress you. The style is of a character calculated + +VI + +to throw the searcher after facts and arguments off +his guard. The imagination of the preacher is so +lurid; he is so free from the ordinary forms of ex- +pression; his statements are so much stranger than +truth, and his conclusions so utterly independent of +his premises, that the reader is too astonished to +be convinced. Not until I had read with great care +the six discourses delivered for my benefit had I any +clear and well-defined idea of the logical force of +Mr. Talmage. I had but little conception of his +candor, was almost totally ignorant of his power to +render the simple complex and the plain obscure by +the mutilation of metaphor and the incoherence +of inspired declamation. Neither did I know the +generous accuracy with which he states the position +of an opponent, and the fairness he exhibits in a +religious discussion. + +He has without doubt studied the Bible as closely +and critically as he has the works of Buckle and +Darwin, and he seems to have paid as much attention +to scientific subjects as most theologians. His theory +of light and his views upon geology are strikingly +original, and his astronomical theories are certainly as +profound as practical. If his statements can be relied +upon, he has successfully refuted the teachings of + +VII + +Humboldt and Haeckel, and exploded the blunders of +Spencer and Tyndall. Besides all this, he has the +courage of his convictions--he does not quail before a +fact, and he does not strike his colors even to a dem- +onstration. He cares nothing for human experience. +He cannot be put down with statistics, nor driven +from his position by the certainties of science. He +cares neither for the persistence of force, nor the +indestructibility of matter. + +He believes in the Bible, and he has the bravery +to defend his belief. In this, he proudly stands +almost alone. He knows that the salvation of the +world depends upon a belief in his creed. He +knows that what are called "the sciences" are of +no importance in the other world. He clearly sees +that it is better to live and die ignorant here, if you +can wear a crown of glory hereafter. He knows it +is useless to be perfectly familiar with all the sciences +in this world, and then in the next "lift up your eyes, +being in torment." He knows, too, that God will +not punish any man for denying a fact in science. +A man can deny the rotundity of the earth, the +attraction of gravitation, the form of the earths orbit, +or the nebular hypothesis, with perfect impunity. +He is not bound to be correct upon any philo- + +VIII + +sophical subject. He is at liberty to deny and ridi- +cule the rule of three, conic sections, and even the +multiplication table. God permits every human +being to be mistaken upon every subject but one. +No man can lose his soul by denying physical facts. +Jehovah does not take the slightest pride in his geology, + +or in his astronomy, or in mathematics, or in +any school of philosophy--he is jealous only of his +reputation as the author of the Bible. You may deny +everything else in the universe except that book. +This being so, Mr. Talmage takes the safe side, and +insists that the Bible is inspired. He knows that at +the day of judgment, not a scientific question will be +asked. He knows that the Hæckels and Huxleys +will, on that terrible day, regret that they ever +learned to read. He knows that there is no "saving +grace" in any department of human knowledge; that +mathematics and all the exact sciences and all the +philosophies will be worse than useless. He knows +that inventors, discoverers, thinkers and investigators, +have no claim upon the mercy of Jehovah; that the +educated will envy the ignorant, and that the writers +and thinkers will curse their books. + +He knows that man cannot be saved through +what he knows--but only by means of what he + +IX + +believes. Theology is not a science. If it were, +God would forgive his children for being mistaken +about it. If it could be proved like geology, or +astronomy, there would be no merit in believing it. +From a belief in the Bible, Mr. Talmage is not to be +driven by uninspired evidence. He knows that his +logic is liable to lead him astray, and that his reason +cannot be depended upon. He believes that scien- +tific men are no authority in matters concerning +which nothing can be known, and he does not wish +to put his soul in peril, by examining by the light of +reason, the evidences of the supernatural. + +He is perfectly consistent with his creed. What +happens to us here is of no consequence compared +with eternal joy or pain. The ambitions, honors, +glories and triumphs of this world, compared with +eternal things, are less than naught. + +Better a cross here and a crown there, than a feast +here and a fire there. + +Lazarus was far more fortunate than Dives. The +purple and fine linen of this short life are as nothing +compared with the robes of the redeemed. + +Mr. Talmage knows that philosophy is unsafe-- +that the sciences are sirens luring souls to eternal +wreck. He knows that the deluded searchers after + +X + +facts are planting thorns in their own pillows--that +the geologists are digging pits for themselves, and +that the astronomers are robbing their souls of the +heaven they explore. He knows that thought, capa- +city, and intellectual courage are dangerous, and this +belief gives him a feeling of personal security. + +The Bible is adapted to the world as it is. Most +people are ignorant, and but few have the capacity to +comprehend philosophical and scientific subjects, and +if salvation depended upon understanding even one +of the sciences, nearly everybody would be lost. +Mr. Talmage sees that it was exceedingly merciful in +God to base salvation on belief instead of on brain. +Millions can believe, while only a few can understand. +Even the effort to understand is a kind of treason +born of pride and ingratitude. This being so, it is far +safer, far better, to be credulous than critical. You are +offered an infinite reward for believing the Bible. If +you examine it you may find it impossible for you to +believe it. Consequently, examination is dangerous. +Mr. Talmage knows that it is not necessary to under- +stand the Bible in order to believe it. You must be- +lieve it first. Then, if on reading it you find anything +that appears false, absurd, or impossible, you may +be sure that it is only an appearance, and that the real + +XI + +fault is in yourself. It is certain that persons wholly +incapable of reasoning are absolutely safe, and that +to be born brainless is to be saved in advance. + +Mr. Talmage takes the ground,--and certainly from +his point of view nothing can be more reasonable +--that thought should be avoided, after one has +"experienced religion" and has been the subject of +"regeneration." Every sinner should listen to ser- +mons, read religious books, and keep thinking, until +he becomes a Christian. Then he should stop. After +that, thinking is not the road to heaven. The real +point and the real difficulty is to stop thinking just at +the right time. Young Christians, who have no idea +of what they are doing, often go on thinking after +joining the church, and in this way heresy is born, and +heresy is often the father of infidelity. If Christians +would follow the advice and example of Mr. Talmage +all disagreements about doctrine would be avoided. +In this way the church could secure absolute in- +tellectual peace and all the disputes, heartburnings, +jealousies and hatreds born of thought, discussion +and reasoning, would be impossible. + +In the estimation of Mr. Talmage, the man who +doubts and examines is not fit for the society of +angels. There are no disputes, no discussions in + +XII + +heaven. The angels do not think; they believe, +they enjoy. The highest form of religion is re- +pression. We should conquer the passions and +destroy desire. We should control the mind and +stop thinking. In this way we "offer ourselves a +"living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God." When +desire dies, when thought ceases, we shall be pure. +--This is heaven. + +Robert G. Ingersoll. + +Washington, D. C, + +April; 1882. + + + + +INGERSOLL'S INTERVIEWS ON TALMAGE. + + + + +FIRST INTERVIEW. + +_Polonius. My lord, I will use them according to +their desert. + +Hamlet. God's bodikins, man, much better: use +every man after his desert, and who should 'scape +whipping? Use them after your own honor and +dignity: the less they deserve, the more merit is +in your bounty._ + +_Question_. Have you read the sermon of + +Mr. Talmage, in which he exposes your mis- +representations? + +_Answer_. I have read such reports as appeared in +some of the New York papers. + +_Question_. What do you think of what he has +to say? + +_Answer_. Some time ago I gave it as my opinion +of Mr. Talmage that, while he was a man of most +excellent judgment, he was somewhat deficient in +imagination. I find that he has the disease that seems + +16 + +to afflict most theologians, and that is, a kind of intel- +lectual toadyism, that uses the names of supposed great +men instead of arguments. It is perfectly astonishing +to the average preacher that any one should have the +temerity to differ, on the subject of theology, with +Andrew Jackson, Daniel Webster, and other gentlemen +eminent for piety during their lives, but who, +as a rule, expressed their theological opinions a few +minutes before dissolution. These ministers are per- +fectly delighted to have some great politician, some +judge, soldier, or president, certify to the truth of the +Bible and to the moral character of Jesus Christ. + +Mr. Talmage insists that if a witness is false in one +particular, his entire testimony must be thrown away. +Daniel Webster was in favor of the Fugitive Slave +Law, and thought it the duty of the North to capture +the poor slave-mother. He was willing to stand +between a human being and his freedom. He was +willing to assist in compelling persons to work without +any pay except such marks of the lash as they might +receive. Yet this man is brought forward as a witness +for the truth of the gospel. If he was false in his +testimony as to liberty, what is his affidavit worth as +to the value of Christianity? Andrew Jackson was a +brave man, a good general, a patriot second to none, + +17 + +an excellent judge of horses, and a brave duelist. I +admit that in his old age he relied considerably upon +the atonement. I think Jackson was really a very great +man, and probably no President impressed himself +more deeply upon the American people than the hero +of New Orleans, but as a theologian he was, in my +judgment, a most decided failure, and his opinion as +to the authenticity of the Scriptures is of no earthly +value. It was a subject upon which he knew probably +as little as Mr. Talmage does about modern infidelity. +Thousands of people will quote Jackson in favor of +religion, about which he knew nothing, and yet have +no confidence in his political opinions, although he +devoted the best part of his life to politics. + +No man should quote the words of another, in place +of an argument, unless he is willing to accept all the +opinions of that man. Lord Bacon denied the Copernican + +system of astronomy, and, according to Mr. +Talmage, having made that mistake, his opinions upon +other subjects are equally worthless. Mr. Wesley +believed in ghosts, witches, and personal devils, yet +upon many subjects I have no doubt his opinions were +correct. The truth is, that nearly everybody is right +about some things and wrong about most things; and +if a man's testimony is not to be taken until he is + +18 + +right on every subject, witnesses will be extremely +scarce. + +Personally, I care nothing about names. It makes +no difference to me what the supposed great men of +the past have said, except as what they have said +contains an argument; and that argument is worth to +me the force it naturally has upon my mind. Chris- +tians forget that in the realm of reason there are no +serfs and no monarchs. When you submit to an +argument, you do not submit to the man who made it. +Christianity demands a certain obedience, a certain +blind, unreasoning faith, and parades before the eyes +of the ignorant, with great pomp and pride, the names +of kings, soldiers, and statesmen who have admitted +the truth of the Bible. Mr. Talmage introduces as a +witness the Rev. Theodore Parker. This same The- +odore Parker denounced the Presbyterian creed as +the most infamous of all creeds, and said that the worst +heathen god, wearing a necklace of live snakes, was a +representation of mercy when compared with the God +of John Calvin. Now, if this witness is false in any +particular, of course he cannot be believed, according +to Mr. Talmage, upon any subject, and yet Mr. +Talmage introduces him upon the stand as a good +witness. + +19 + +Although I care but little for names, still I will sug- +gest that, in all probability, Humboldt knew more upon +this subject than all the pastors in the world. I cer- +tainly would have as much confidence in the opinion +of Goethe as in that of William H. Seward; and as +between Seward and Lincoln, I should take Lincoln; +and when you come to Presidents, for my part, if I +were compelled to pin my faith on the sleeve of any- +body, I should take Jefferson's coat in preference to +Jackson's. I believe that Haeckel is, to say the least, +the equal of any theologian we have in this country, +and the late John W. Draper certainly knew as much +upon these great questions as the average parson. I +believe that Darwin has investigated some of these +things, that Tyndall and Huxley have turned their +minds somewhat in the same direction, that Helmholtz +has a few opinions, and that, in fact, thousands of able, +intelligent and honest men differ almost entirely with +Webster and Jackson. + +So far as I am concerned, I think more of reasons +than of reputations, more of principles than of persons, +more of nature than of names, more of facts, than of +faiths. + +It is the same with books as with persons. Proba- +bly there is not a book in the world entirely destitute + +20 + +of truth, and not one entirely exempt from error. +The Bible is like other books. There are mistakes in +it, side by side with truths,--passages inculcating +murder, and others exalting mercy; laws devilish and +tyrannical, and others filled with wisdom and justice. +It is foolish to say that if you accept a part, you must +accept the whole. You must accept that which com- +mends itself to your heart and brain. There never was +a doctrine that a witness, or a book, should be thrown +entirely away, because false in one particular. If in +any particular the book, or the man, tells the truth, to +that extent the truth should be accepted. + +Truth is made no worse by the one who tells it, +and a lie gets no real benefit from the reputation of its +author. + +_Question_. What do you think of the statement +that a general belief in your teachings would fill all +the penitentiaries, and that in twenty years there +would be a hell in this world worse than the one +expected in the other? + +_Answer_. My creed is this: + +1. Happiness is the only good. + +2. The way to be happy, is to make others happy. + +21 + +Other things being equal, that man is happiest who is +nearest just--who is truthful, merciful and intelligent-- +in other words, the one who lives in accordance with +the conditions of life. + +3. The time to be happy is now, and the place to +be happy, is here. + +4. Reason is the lamp of the mind--the only torch +of progress; and instead of blowing that out and de- +pending upon darkness and dogma, it is far better to +increase that sacred light. + +5. Every man should be the intellectual proprietor +of himself, honest with himself, and intellectually +hospitable; and upon every brain reason should be +enthroned as king. + +6. Every man must bear the consequences, at +least of his own actions. If he puts his hands in +the fire, his hands must smart, and not the hands of +another. In other words: each man must eat the +fruit of the tree he plants. + +I can not conceive that the teaching of these doc- +trines would fill penitentiaries, or crowd the gallows. +The doctrine of forgiveness--the idea that somebody +else can suffer in place of the guilty--the notion that +just at the last the whole account can be settled-- +these ideas, doctrines, and notions are calculated to fill + +22 + +penitentiaries. Nothing breeds extravagance like the +credit system. + +Most criminals of the present day are orthodox be- +lievers, and the gallows seems to be the last round of +the ladder reaching from earth to heaven. The Rev. +Dr. Sunderland, of this city, in his sermon on the assas- +sination of Garfield, takes the ground that God per- +mitted the murder for the purpose of opening the eyes +of the people to the evil effects of infidelity. Accord- +ing to this minister, God, in order to show his hatred +of infidelity, "inspired," or allowed, one Christian to +assassinate another. + +Religion and morality do not necessarily go together. +Mr. Talmage will insist to-day that morality is not +sufficient to save any man from eternal punishment. +As a matter of fact, religion has often been the enemy +of morality. The moralist has been denounced by the +theologians. He sustains the same relation to Chris- +tianity that the moderate drinker does to the total- +abstinence society. The total-abstinence people say +that the example of the moderate drinker is far worse +upon the young than that of the drunkard--that the +drunkard is a warning, while the moderate drinker is +a perpetual temptation. So Christians say of moral- +ists. According to them, the moralist sets a worse + +23 + +example than the criminal. The moralist not only in- +sists that a man can be a good citizen, a kind husband, +an affectionate father, without religion, but demon- +strates the truth of his doctrine by his own life; +whereas the criminal admits that in and of himself he +is nothing, and can do nothing, but that he needs +assistance from the church and its ministers. + +The worst criminals of the modern world have been +Christians--I mean by that, believers in Christianity-- +and the most monstrous crimes of the modern world +have been committed by the most zealous believers. +There is nothing in orthodox religion, apart from the +morality it teaches, to prevent the commission oF crime. +On the other hand, the perpetual proffer of forgiveness +is a direct premium upon what Christians are pleased +to call the commission of sin. + +Christianity has produced no greater character than +Epictetus, no greater sovereign than Marcus Aurelius. +The wickedness of the past was a good deal like that +of the present. As a rule, kings have been wicked in +direct proportion to their power--their power having +been lessened, their crimes have decreased. As a +matter of fact, paganism, of itself, did not produce any +great men; neither has Christianity. Millions of in- +fluences determine individual character, and the re- + +24 + +ligion of the country in which a man happens to be +born may determine many of his opinions, without +influencing, to any great extent, his real character. + +There have been brave, honest, and intelligent men +in and out of every church. + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage says that you insist that, +according to the Bible, the universe was made out of +nothing, and he denounces your statement as a gross +misrepresentation. What have you stated upon that +subject? + +_Answer_. What I said was substantially this: "We +"are told in the first chapter of Genesis, that in the +"beginning God created the heaven and the earth. +"If this means anything, it means that God pro- +"duced--caused to exist, called into being--the +"heaven and the earth. It will not do to say that +"God formed the heaven and the earth of previously +"existing matter. Moses conveys, and intended to +"convey, the idea that the matter of which the +"universe is composed was created." + +This has always been my position. I did not sup- +pose that nothing was used as the raw material; but + +if the Mosaic account means anything, it means that +whereas there was nothing, God caused something to + +25 + +exist--created what we know as matter. I can not +conceive of something being made, created, without +anything to make anything with. I have no more +confidence in fiat worlds than I have in fiat money. +Mr. Talmage tells us that God did not make the uni- +verse out of _nothing_, but out of "omnipotence." +Exactly how God changed "omnipotence" into matter +is not stated. If there was _nothing_ in the universe, +_omnipotence_ could do you no good. The weakest man +in the world can lift as much _nothing_ as God. + +Mr. Talmage seems to think that to create something +from nothing is simply a question of strength--that it +requires infinite muscle--that it is only a question of +biceps. Of course, omnipotence is an attribute, not an +entity, not a raw material; and the idea that something +can be made out of omnipotence--using that as the +raw material--is infinitely absurd. It would have +been equally logical to say that God made the universe +out of his omniscience, or his omnipresence, or his +unchangeableness, or out of his honesty, his holiness, +or his incapacity to do evil. I confess my utter in- +ability to understand, or even to suspect, what the +reverend gentleman means, when he says that God +created the universe out of his "omnipotence." + +I admit that the Bible does not tell when God created + +26 + +the universe. It is simply said that he did this "in the +beginning." We are left, however, to infer that "the +beginning" was Monday morning, and that on the +first Monday God created the matter in an exceedingly +chaotic state; that on Tuesday he made a firmament +to divide the waters from the waters; that on Wednes- +day he gathered the waters together in seas and +allowed the dry land to appear. We are also told that +on that day "the earth brought forth grass and herb +"yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding +"fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind." This +was before the creation of the sun, but Mr. Talmage +takes the ground that there are many other sources of +light; that "there may have been volcanoes in active +operation on other planets." I have my doubts, +however, about the light of volcanoes being sufficient +to produce or sustain vegetable life, and think it a +little doubtful about trees growing only by "volcanic +glare." Neither do I think one could depend upon +"three thousand miles of liquid granite" for the pro- +duction of grass and trees, nor upon "light that rocks +might emit in the process of crystallization." I doubt +whether trees would succeed simply with the assistance +of the "Aurora Borealis or the Aurora Australis." +There are other sources of light, not mentioned by + +27 + +Mr. Talmage--lightning-bugs, phosphorescent beetles, +and fox-fire. I should think that it would be humili- +ating, in this age, for an orthodox preacher to insist +that vegetation could exist upon this planet without the +light of the sun--that trees could grow, blossom and +bear fruit, having no light but the flames of volcanoes, +or that emitted by liquid granite, or thrown off by the +crystallization of rocks. + +There is another thing, also, that should not be for- +gotten, and that is, that there is an even balance for- +ever kept between the totals of animal and vegetable +life--that certain forms of animal life go with certain +forms of vegetable life. Mr. Haeckel has shown that +"in the first epoch, algæ and skull-less vertebrates +were found together; in the second, ferns and fishes; +in the third, pines and reptiles; in the fourth, foliaceous + +forests and mammals." Vegetable and animal +life sustain a necessary relation; they exist together; +they act and interact, and each depends upon the other. +The real point of difference between Mr. Talmage and +myself is this: He says that God made the universe +out of his "omnipotence," and I say that, although I +know nothing whatever upon the subject, my opinion +is, that the universe has existed from eternity--that it +continually changes in form, but that it never was + +28 + +created or called into being by any power. I think +that all that is, is all the God there is. + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage charges you with having +misrepresented the Bible story of the deluge. Has he +correctly stated your position? + +_Answer_. Mr. Talmage takes the ground that the +flood was only partial, and was, after all, not much of a +flood. The Bible tells us that God said he would +"destroy all flesh wherein is the breath of life from +"under heaven, and that everything that is in the +"earth shall die;" that God also said: "I will destroy +"man, whom I have created, from the face of the +"earth; both man and beast and the creeping thing +"and the fowls of the air, and every living substance +"that I have made will I destroy from off the face of +"the earth." + +I did not suppose that there was any miracle in the +Bible larger than the credulity of Mr. Talmage. The +flood story, however, seems to be a little more than +he can bear. He is like the witness who stated that +he had read _Gullivers Travels_, the _Stories of Mun- +chausen_, and the _Flying Wife_, including _Robinson +Crusoe_, and believed them all; but that Wirt's _Life of +Patrick Henry_ was a litde more than he could stand. + +29 + +It is strange that a man who believes that God +created the universe out of "omnipotence" should +believe that he had not enough omnipotence left to +drown a world the size of this. Mr. Talmage seeks +to make the story of the flood reasonable. The +moment it is reasonable, it ceases to be miraculous. +Certainly God cannot afford to reward a man with +eternal joy for believing a reasonable story. Faith is +only necessary when the story is unreasonable, and if +the flood only gets small enough, I can believe it +myself. I ask for evidence, and Mr. Talmage seeks +to make the story so little that it can be believed +without evidence. He tells us that it was a kind of +"local option" flood--a little wet for that part of the +country. + +Why was it necessary to save the birds? They +certainly could have gotten out of the way of a real +small flood. Of the birds, Noah took fourteen of each +species. He was commanded to take of the fowls of the +air by sevens--seven of each sex--and, as there are +at least 12,500 species, Noah collected an aviary of +about 175,000 birds, provided the flood was general. +If it was local, there are no means of determining the +number. But why, if the flood was local, should he +have taken any of the fowls of the air into his ark? + +30 + +All they had to do was to fly away, or "roost high;" +and it would have been just as easy for God to have +implanted in them, for the moment, the instinct of +getting out of the way as the instinct of hunting the ark. +It would have been quite a saving of room and pro- +visions, and would have materially lessened the labor +and anxiety of Noah and his sons. + +Besides, if it had been a partial flood, and great +enough to cover the highest mountains in that country, +the highest mountain being about seventeen thousand +feet, the flood would have been covered with a sheet +of ice several thousand feet in thickness. If a column +of water could have been thrown seventeen thousand +feet high and kept stationary, several thousand feet +of the upper end would have frozen. If, however, +the deluge was general, then the atmosphere would +have been forced out the same on all sides, and the +climate remained substantially normal. + +Nothing can be more absurd than to attempt to +explain the flood by calling it partial. + +Mr. Talmage also says that the window ran clear +round the ark, and that if I had only known as much +Hebrew as a man could put on his little finger, I +would have known that the window went clear round. +To this I reply that, if his position is correct, then the + +31 + +original translators of King James' edition did not +know as much Hebrew as they could have put on +their little fingers; and yet I am obliged to believe +their translation or be eternally damned. If the +window went clear round, the inspired writer should +have said so, and the learned translators should have +given us the truth. No one pretends that there was +more than one door, and yet the same language is +used about the door, except this--that the exact size +of the window is given, and the only peculiarity men- +tioned as to the door is that it shut from the outside. +For any one to see that Mr. Talmage is wrong on the +window question, it is only necessary to read the story +of the deluge. + +Mr. Talmage also endeavors to decrease the depth +of the flood. If the flood did not cover the highest +hills, many people might have been saved. He also +insists that all the water did not come from the rains, +but that "the fountains of the great deep were broken +"up." What are "the fountains of the great deep"? +How would their being "broken up" increase the +depth of the water? He seems to imagine that these +"fountains" were in some way imprisoned--anxious +to get to the surface, and that, at that time, an oppor- +tunity was given for water to run up hill, or in some + +32 + +mysterious way to rise above its level. According to +the account, the ark was at the mercy of the waves for +at least seven months. If this flood was only partial, +it seems a little curious that the water did not seek its +level in less than seven months. With anything like +a fair chance, by that time most of it would have +found its way to the sea again. + +There is in the literature of ignorance no more +perfectly absurd and cruel story than that of the +deluge. + +I am very sorry that Mr. Talmage should disagree +with some of the great commentators. Dr. Scott +tells us that, in all probability, the angels assisted in +getting the animals into the ark. Dr. Henry insists +that the waters in the bowels of the earth, at God's +command, sprung up and flooded the earth. Dr. +Clark tells us that it would have been much easier +for God to have destroyed all the people and made +some new ones, but that he did not want to waste +anything. Dr. Henry also tells us that the lions, while +in the ark, ate straw like oxen. Nothing could be +more amusing than to see a few lions eating good, +dry straw. This commentator assures us that the +waters rose so high that the loftiest mountains were +overflowed fifteen cubits, so that salvation was not + +33 + +hoped for from any hills or mountains. He tells us +that some of the people got on top of the ark, and +hoped to shift for themselves, but that, in all proba- +bility, they were washed off by the rain. When we +consider that the rain must have fallen at the rate of +about eight hundred feet a day, I am inclined to think +that they were washed off. + +Mr. Talmage has clearly misrepresented the Bible. +He is not prepared to believe the story as it is told. +The seeds of infidelity seem to be germinating in his +mind. His position no doubt will be a great relief to +most of his hearers. After this, their credulity will +not be strained. They can say that there was probably +quite a storm, some rain, to an extent that rendered it +necessary for Noah and his family--his dogs, cats, +and chickens--to get in a boat. This would not be +unreasonable. The same thing happens almost every +year on the shores of great rivers, and consequently +the story of the flood is an exceedingly reasonable +one. + +Mr. Talmage also endeavors to account for the +miraculous collection of the animals in the ark by +the universal instinct to get out of the rain. There +are at least two objections to this: 1. The animals +went into the ark before the rain commenced; 2. I + +34 + +have never noticed any great desire on the part of +ducks, geese, and loons to get out of the water. Mr. +Talmage must have been misled by a line from an old +nursery book that says: "And the little fishes got +"under the bridge to keep out of the rain." He tells +us that Noah described what he saw. He is the first +theologian who claims that Genesis was written by +Noah, or that Noah wrote any account of the flood. +Most Christians insist that the account of the flood +was written by Moses, and that he was inspired to +write it. Of course, it will not do for me to say that +Mr. Talmage has misrepresented the facts. + +_Question_. You are also charged with misrepresen- +tation in your statement as to where the ark at last +rested. It is claimed by Mr. Talmage that there is +nothing in the Bible to show that the ark rested on +the highest mountains. + +_Answer_. Of course I have no knowledge as to +where the ark really came to anchor, but after it struck +bottom, we are told that a dove was sent out, and +that the dove found no place whereon to rest her +foot. If the ark touched ground in the low country, +surely the mountains were out of water, and an or- +dinary mountain furnishes, as a rule, space enough + +35 + +for a dove's foot. We must infer that the ark rested +on the only land then above water, or near enough +above water to strike the keel of Noah's boat. Mount +Ararat is about seventeen thousand feet high; so I +take it that the top of that mountain was where Noah +ran aground--otherwise, the account means nothing. + +Here Mr. Talmage again shows his tendency to +belittle the miracles of the Bible. I am astonished +that he should doubt the power of God to keep an +ark on a mountain seventeen thousand feet high. +He could have changed the climate for that occasion. +He could have made all the rocks and glaciers pro- +duce wheat and corn in abundance. Certainly God, +who could overwhelm a world with a flood, had the +power to change every law and fact in nature. + +I am surprised that Mr. Talmage is not willing to +believe the story as it is told. What right has he to +question the statements of an inspired writer? Why +should he set up his judgment against the Websters +and Jacksons? Is it not infinitely impudent in him +to contrast his penny-dip with the sun of inspiration? +What right has he to any opinion upon the subject? +He must take the Bible as it reads. He should +remember that the greater the miracle the greater +should be his faith. + +36 + +_Question_. You do not seem to have any great +opinion of the chemical, geological, and agricultural +views expressed by Mr. Talmage? + +_Answer_. You must remember that Mr. Talmage +has a certain thing to defend. He takes the Bible as +actually true, and with the Bible as his standard, he +compares and measures all sciences. He does not +study geology to find whether the Mosaic account is +true, but he reads the Mosaic account for the purpose +of showing that geology can not be depended upon. +His idea that "one day is as a thousand years with +"God," and that therefore the "days" mentioned in the +Mosaic account are not days of twenty-four hours, but +long periods, is contradicted by the Bible itself. The +great reason given for keeping the Sabbath day is, that +"God rested on the seventh day and was refreshed." +Now, it does not say that he rested on the "seventh +"period," or the "seventh good--while," or the +"seventh long-time," but on the "seventh day." In +imitation of this example we are also to rest--not on +the seventh good-while, but on the seventh day. +Nothing delights the average minister more than to +find that a passage of Scripture is capable of several +interpretations. Nothing in the inspired book is so + +37 + +dangerous as accuracy. If the holy writer uses +general terms, an ingenious theologian can harmonize +a seemingly preposterous statement with the most +obdurate fact. An "inspired" book should contain +neither statistics nor dates--as few names as possible, +and not one word about geology or astronomy. Mr. +Talmage is doing the best he can to uphold the fables +of the Jews. They are the foundation of his faith. +He believes in the water of the past and the fire of the +future--in the God of flood and flame--the eternal +torturer of his helpless children. + +It is exceedingly unfortunate that Mr. Talmage does +not appreciate the importance of good manners, that +he does not rightly estimate the convincing power of +kindness and good nature. It is unfortunate that a +Christian, believing in universal forgiveness, should +exhibit so much of the spirit of detraction, that he +should run so easily and naturally into epithets, and +that he should mistake vituperation for logic. Thou- +sands of people, knowing but little of the mysteries of +Christianity--never having studied theology,--may +become prejudiced against the church, and doubt the +divine origin of a religion whose defenders seem to +rely, at least to a great degree, upon malignant per- +sonalities. Mr. Talmage should remember that in a + +38 + +discussion of this kind, he is supposed to represent a +being of infinite wisdom and goodness. Surely, the +representative of the infinite can afford to be candid, +can afford to be kind. When he contemplates the +condition of a fellow-being destitute of religion, a +fellow-being now travelling the thorny path to eternal +fire, he should be filled with pity instead of hate. +Instead of deforming his mouth with scorn, his eyes +should be filled with tears. He should take into +consideration the vast difference between an infidel +and a minister of the gospel,--knowing, as he does, +that a crown of glory has been prepared for the +minister, and that flames are waiting for the soul +of the unbeliever. He should bear with philosophic +fortitude the apparent success of the skeptic, for a +few days in this brief life, since he knows that in a +little while the question will be eternally settled in +his favor, and that the humiliation of a day is as +nothing compared with the victory of eternity. In +this world, the skeptic appears to have the best +of the argument; logic seems to be on the side +of blasphemy; common sense apparently goes hand +in hand with infidelity, and the few things we are +absolutely certain of, seem inconsistent with the +Christian creeds. + +39 + +This, however, as Mr. Talmage well knows, is but +apparent. God has arranged the world in this way +for the purpose of testing the Christian's faith. +Beyond all these facts, beyond logic, beyond reason, +Mr. Talmage, by the light of faith, clearly sees the +eternal truth. This clearness of vision should give +him the serenity of candor and the kindness born of +absolute knowledge. He, being a child of the light, +should not expect the perfect from the children of +darkness. He should not judge Humboldt and +Wesley by the same standard. He should remember +that Wesley was especially set apart and illuminated +by divine wisdom, while Humboldt was left to grope +in the shadows of nature. He should also remember +that ministers are not like other people. They have +been "called." They have been "chosen" by infinite +wisdom. They have been "set apart," and they +have bread to eat that we know not of. While +other people are forced to pursue the difficult paths +of investigation, they fly with the wings of faith. + +Mr. Talmage is perfectly aware of the advantages +he enjoys, and yet he deems it dangerous to be fair. +This, in my judgment, is his mistake. If he cannot +easily point out the absurdities and contradictions in +infidel lectures, surely God would never have selected + +40 + +him for that task. We cannot believe that imperfect +instruments would be chosen by infinite wisdom. +Certain lambs have been entrusted to the care of Mr. +Talmage, the shepherd. Certainly God would not +select a shepherd unable to cope with an average +wolf. Such a shepherd is only the appearance of +protection. When the wolf is not there, he is a +useless expense, and when the wolf comes, he goes. +I cannot believe that God would select a shepherd +of that kind. Neither can the shepherd justify his +selection by abusing the wolf when out of sight. +The fear ought to be on the other side. A divinely +appointed shepherd ought to be able to convince his +sheep that a wolf is a dangerous animal, and ought +to be able to give his reasons. It may be that the +shepherd has a certain interest in exaggerating the +cruelty and ferocity of the wolf, and even the number +of the wolves. Should it turn out that the wolves +exist only in the imagination of the shepherd, the +sheep might refuse to pay the salary of their pro- +tector. It will, however, be hard to calculate the +extent to which the sheep will lose confidence in a +shepherd who has not even the courage to state the +facts about the wolf. But what must be the result +when the sheep find that the supposed wolf is, in + +41 + +fact, their friend, and that he is endeavoring to rescue +them from the exactions of the pretended shepherd, +who creates, by falsehood, the fear on which he +lives? + + + + +SECOND INTERVIEW. + + +_Por. Why, man, what's the matter? Don't tear +your hair. + +Sir Hugh. I have been beaten in a discussion, +overwhelmed and humiliated. + +Por. Why didn't you call your adversary a fool? + +Sir Hugh. My God! I forgot it!_ + +_Question_. I want to ask you a few questions +about the second sermon of Mr. Talmage; +have you read it, and what do you think of it? + +_Answer_. The text taken by the reverend gentle- +man is an insult, and was probably intended as such: +"The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God." +Mr. Talmage seeks to apply this text to any one +who denies that the Jehovah of the Jews was and is +the infinite and eternal Creator of all. He is per- +fectly satisfied that any man who differs with him on +this question is a "fool," and he has the Christian +forbearance and kindness to say so. I presume he + +46 + +is honest in this opinion, and no doubt regards Bruno, +Spinoza and Humboldt as driveling imbeciles. He +entertains the same opinion of some of the greatest, +wisest and best of Greece and Rome. + +No man is fitted to reason upon this question who +has not the intelligence to see the difficulties in all +theories. No man has yet evolved a theory that +satisfactorily accounts for all that is. No matter +what his opinion may be, he is beset by a thousand +difficulties, and innumerable things insist upon an +explanation. The best that any man can do is to +take that theory which to his mind presents the +fewest difficulties. Mr. Talmage has been educated +in a certain way--has a brain of a certain quantity, +quality and form--and accepts, in spite it may be, +of himself, a certain theory. Others, formed differ- +ently, having lived under different circumstances, +cannot accept the Talmagian view, and thereupon he +denounces them as fools. In this he follows the +example of David the murderer; of David, who +advised one of his children to assassinate another; +of David, whose last words were those of hate and +crime. Mr. Talmage insists that it takes no especial +brain to reason out a "design" in Nature, and in a +moment afterward says that "when the world slew + +47 + +"Jesus, it showed what it would do with the eternal +"God, if once it could get its hands on Him." Why +should a God of infinite wisdom create people who +would gladly murder their Creator? Was there any +particular "design" in that? Does the existence +of such people conclusively prove the existence of a +good Designer? It seems to me--and I take it that +my thought is natural, as I have only been born +once--that an infinitely wise and good God would +naturally create good people, and if he has not, cer- +tainly the fault is his. The God of Mr. Talmage +knew, when he created Guiteau, that he would +assassinate Garfield. Why did he create him? Did +he want Garfield assassinated? Will somebody be +kind enough to show the "design" in this trans- +action? Is it possible to see "design" in earth- +quakes, in volcanoes, in pestilence, in famine, in +ruthless and relentless war? Can we find "design" in +the fact that every animal lives upon some other-- +that every drop of every sea is a battlefield where +the strong devour the weak? Over the precipice +of cruelty rolls a perpetual Niagara of blood. Is +there "design" in this? Why should a good God +people a world with men capable of burning their +fellow-men--and capable of burning the greatest and + +48 + +best? Why does a good God permit these things? +It is said of Christ that he was infinitely kind and +generous, infinitely merciful, because when on earth +he cured the sick, the lame and blind. Has he not +as much power now as he had then? If he was and +is the God of all worlds, why does he not now give +back to the widow her son? Why does he with- +hold light from the eyes of the blind? And why +does one who had the power miraculously to feed +thousands, allow millions to die for want of food? +Did Christ only have pity when he was part human? +Are we indebted for his kindness to the flesh that +clothed his spirit? Where is he now? Where has he +been through all the centuries of slavery and crime? +If this universe was "designed," then all that +happens was "designed." If a man constructs an +engine, the boiler of which explodes, we say either +that he did not know the strength of his materials, or +that he was reckless of human life. If an infinite being +should construct a weak or imperfect machine, he must +be held accountable for all that happens. He cannot +be permitted to say that he did not know the strength +of the materials. He is directly and absolutely re- +sponsible. So, if this world was designed by a being +of infinite power and wisdom, he is responsible for + +49 + +the result of that design. My position is this: I do +not know. But there are so many objections to the +personal-God theory, that it is impossible for me to +accept it. I prefer to say that the universe is all the +God there is. I prefer to make no being responsible. +I prefer to say: If the naked are clothed, man +must clothe them; if the hungry are fed, man must +feed them. I prefer to rely upon human endeavor, +upon human intelligence, upon the heart and brain +of man. There is no evidence that God has ever +interfered in the affairs of man. The hand of earth +is stretched uselessly toward heaven. From the +clouds there comes no help. In vain the shipwrecked +cry to God. In vain the imprisoned ask for liberty +and light--the world moves on, and the heavens are +deaf and dumb and blind. The frost freezes, the fire +burns, slander smites, the wrong triumphs, the good +suffer, and prayer dies upon the lips of faith. + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage charges you with being +"the champion blasphemer of America"--what do +you understand blasphemy to be? + +_Answer_. Blasphemy is an epithet bestowed by su- +perstition upon common sense. Whoever investi- +gates a religion as he would any department of + +50 + +science, is called a blasphemer. Whoever contradicts +a priest, whoever has the impudence to use his own +reason, whoever is brave enough to express his +honest thought, is a blasphemer in the eyes of the +religionist. When a missionary speaks slightingly of +the wooden god of a savage, the savage regards him +as a blasphemer. To laugh at the pretensions of +Mohammed in Constantinople is blasphemy. To say +in St. Petersburg that Mohammed was a prophet of +God is also blasphemy. There was a time when to +acknowledge the divinity of Christ in Jerusalem was +blasphemy. To deny his divinity is now blasphemy +in New York. Blasphemy is to a considerable extent +a geographical question. It depends not only on what +you say, but where you are when you say it. Blas- +phemy is what the old calls the new,--what last +year's leaf says to this year's bud. The founder of +every religion was a blasphemer. The Jews so re- +garded Christ, and the Athenians had the same +opinion of Socrates. Catholics have always looked +upon Protestants as blasphemers, and Protestants have +always held the same generous opinion of Catholics. +To deny that Mary is the Mother of God is blas- +phemy. To say that she is the Mother of God is +blasphemy. Some savages think that a dried snake- + +51 + +skin stuffed with leaves is sacred, and he who thinks +otherwise is a blasphemer. It was once blasphemy +to laugh at Diana, of the Ephesians. Many people +think that it is blasphemous to tell your real opinion +of the Jewish Jehovah. Others imagine that words +can be printed upon paper, and the paper bound into +a book covered with sheepskin, and that the book is +sacred, and that to question its sacredness is blas- +phemy. Blasphemy is also a crime against God, but +nothing can be more absurd than a crime against +God. If God is infinite, you cannot injure him. You +cannot commit a crime against any being that you +cannot injure. Of course, the infinite cannot be in- +jured. Man is a conditioned being. By changing +his conditions, his surroundings, you can injure him; +but if God is infinite, he is conditionless. If he is +conditionless, he cannot by any possibility be injured. +You can neither increase, nor decrease, the well-being +of the infinite. Consequently, a crime against God +is a demonstrated impossibility. The cry of blasphemy +means only that the argument of the blasphemer can- +not be answered. The sleight-of-hand performer, +when some one tries to raise the curtain behind which +he operates, cries "blasphemer!" The priest, find- +ing that he has been attacked by common sense,-- + +52 + +by a fact,--resorts to the same cry. Blasphemy is the +black flag of theology, and it means: No argument +and no quarter! It is an appeal to prejudice, to +passions, to ignorance. It is the last resort of a +defeated priest. Blasphemy marks the point where +argument stops and slander begins. In old times, it +was the signal for throwing stones, for gathering +fagots and for tearing flesh; now it means falsehood +and calumny. + +_Question_. Then you think that there is no such +thing as the crime of blasphemy, and that no such +offence can be committed? + +_Answer_. Any one who knowingly speaks in favor +of injustice is a blasphemer. Whoever wishes to +destroy liberty of thought,--the honest expression of +ideas,--is a blasphemer. Whoever is willing to malign +his neighbor, simply because he differs with him upon +a subject about which neither of them knows anything +for certain, is a blasphemer. If a crime can be com- +mitted against God, he commits it who imputes to +God the commission of crime. The man who says +that God ordered the assassination of women and +babes, that he gave maidens to satisfy the lust of +soldiers, that he enslaved his own children,--that man + +53 + +is a blasphemer. In my judgment, it would be far +better to deny the existence of God entirely. It +seems to me that every man ought to give his honest +opinion. No man should suppose that any infinite +God requires him to tell as truth that which he knows +nothing about. + +Mr. Talmage, in order to make a point against +infidelity, states from his pulpit that I am in favor of +poisoning the minds of children by the circulation of +immoral books. The statement is entirely false. He +ought to have known that I withdrew from the Liberal +League upon the very question whether the law should +be repealed or modified. I favored a modification +of that law, so that books and papers could not be +thrown from the mails simply because they were +"infidel." + +I was and am in favor of the destruction of +every immoral book in the world. I was and am +in favor, not only of the law against the circulation +of such filth, but want it executed to the letter in every +State of this Union. Long before he made that state- +ment, I had introduced a resolution to that effect, and +supported the resolution in a speech. Notwithstand- +ing these facts, hundreds of clergymen have made +haste to tell the exact opposite of the truth. This + +54 + +they have done in the name of Christianity, under the +pretence of pleasing their God. In my judgment, it +is far better to tell your honest opinions, even upon +the subject of theology, than to knowingly tell a false- +hood about a fellow-man. Mr. Talmage may have +been ignorant of the truth. He may have been misled +by other ministers, and for his benefit I make this ex- +planation. I wanted the laws modified so that bigotry +could not interfere with the literature of intelligence; +but I did not want, in any way, to shield the writers or +publishers of immoral books. Upon this subject I +used, at the last meeting of the Liberal League that +I attended, the following language: + +"But there is a distinction wide as the Mississippi, +"yes, wider than the Atlantic, wider than all oceans, +"between the literature of immorality and the litera- +"ture of free thought. One is a crawling, slimy lizard, +"and the other an angel with wings of light. Let us +"draw this distinction. Let us understand ourselves. +"Do not make the wholesale statement that all these +"laws ought to be repealed. They ought not to be +"repealed. Some of them are good, and the law +"against sending instruments of vice through the +"mails is good. The law against sending obscene +"pictures and books is good. The law against send- + +55 + +"ing bogus diplomas through the mails, to allow a +"lot of ignorant hyenas to prey upon the sick people +"of the world, is a good law. The law against rascals +"who are getting up bogus lotteries, and sending their +"circulars in the mails is a good law. You know, as +"well as I, that there are certain books not fit to go +"through the mails. You know that. You know there +"are certain pictures not fit to be transmitted, not fit +"to be delivered to any human being. When these +"books and pictures come into the control of the +"United States, I say, burn them up! And when any +"man has been indicted who has been trying to make +"money by pandering to the lowest passions in the +"human breast, then I say, prosecute him! let the +"law take its course." + +I can hardly convince myself that when Mr. +Talmage made the charge, he was acquainted with +the facts. It seems incredible that any man, pre- +tending to be governed by the law of common +honesty, could make a charge like this knowing +it to be untrue. Under no circumstances, would +I charge Mr. Talmage with being an infamous +man, unless the evidence was complete and over- +whelming. Even then, I should hesitate long before +making the charge. The side I take on theological + +56 + +questions does not render a resort to slander or +calumny a necessity. If Mr. Talmage is an honor- +able man, he will take back the statement he has +made. Even if there is a God, I hardly think that +he will reward one of his children for maligning +another; and to one who has told falsehoods about +"infidels," that having been his only virtue, I doubt +whether he will say: "Well done good and faithful +"servant." + +_Question_. What have you to say to the charge +that you are endeavoring to "assassinate God," +and that you are "far worse than the man who at- +"tempts to kill his father, or his mother, or his sister, +"or his brother"? + +_Answer_. Well, I think that is about as reason- +able as anything he says. No one wishes, so far as I +know, to assassinate God. The idea of assassinating +an infinite being is of course infinitely absurd. One +would think Mr. Talmage had lost his reason! And +yet this man stands at the head of the Presbyterian +clergy. It is for this reason that I answer him. He +is the only Presbyterian minister in the United +States, so far as I know, able to draw an audience. +He is, without doubt, the leader of that denomination. + +57 + +He is orthodox and conservative. He believes im- +plicitly in the "Five Points" of Calvin, and says +nothing simply for the purpose of attracting attention. +He believes that God damns a man for his own glory; +that he sends babes to hell to establish his mercy, +and that he filled the world with disease and crime +simply to demonstrate his wisdom. He believes that +billions of years before the earth was, God had made +up his mind as to the exact number that he would +eternally damn, and had counted his saints. This +doctrine he calls "glad tidings of great joy." He +really believes that every man who is true to himself +is waging war against God; that every infidel is a +rebel; that every Freethinker is a traitor, and that +only those are good subjects who have joined the +Presbyterian Church, know the Shorter Catechism by +heart, and subscribe liberally toward lifting the mort- +gage on the Brooklyn Tabernacle. All the rest are +endeavoring to assassinate God, plotting the murder +of the Holy Ghost, and applauding the Jews for the +crucifixion of Christ. If Mr. Talmage is correct in +his views as to the power and wisdom of God, I +imagine that his enemies at last will be overthrown, +that the assassins and murderers will not succeed, and +that the Infinite, with Mr. Talmage s assistance, will + +58 + +finally triumph. If there is an infinite God, certainly +he ought to have made man grand enough to have +and express an opinion of his own. Is it possible +that God can be gratified with the applause of moral +cowards? Does he seek to enhance his glory by +receiving the adulation of cringing slaves? Is God +satisfied with the adoration of the frightened? + +_Question_. You notice that Mr. Talmage finds +nearly all the inventions of modern times mentioned +in the Bible? + +_Answer_: Yes; Mr. Talmage has made an ex- +ceedingly important discovery. I admit that I am +somewhat amazed at the wisdom of the ancients. +This discovery has been made just in the nick of +time. Millions of people were losing their respect +for the Old Testament. They were beginning to +think that there was some discrepancy between the +prophecies of Ezekiel and Daniel and the latest devel- +opments in physical science. Thousands of preachers +were telling their flocks that the Bible is not a +scientific book; that Joshua was not an inspired as- +tronomer, that God never enlightened Moses about +geology, and that Ezekiel did not understand the +entire art of cookery. These admissions caused + +59 + +some young people to suspect that the Bible, after all, +was not inspired; that the prophets of antiquity did +not know as much as the discoverers of to-day. The +Bible was falling into disrepute. Mr. Talmage has +rushed to the rescue. He shows, and shows conclu- +sively as anything can be shown from the Bible, that +Job understood all the laws of light thousands of +years before Newton lived; that he anticipated the +discoveries of Descartes, Huxley and Tyndall; that +he was familiar with the telegraph and telephone; +that Morse, Bell and Edison simply put his discov- +eries in successful operation; that Nahum was, in +fact, a master-mechanic; that he understood perfectly +the modern railway and described it so accurately +that Trevethick, Foster and Stephenson had no diffi- +culty in constructing a locomotive. He also has +discovered that Job was well acquainted with the +trade winds, and understood the mysterious currents, +tides and pulses of the sea; that Lieutenant Maury +was a plagiarist; that Humboldt was simply a biblical +student. He finds that Isaiah and Solomon were +far in advance of Galileo, Morse, Meyer and Watt. +This is a discovery wholly unexpected to me. If +Mr. Talmage is right, I am satisfied the Bible is an +inspired book. If it shall turn out that Joshua was + +60 + +superior to Laplace, that Moses knew more about +geology than Humboldt, that Job as a scientist was +the superior of Kepler, that Isaiah knew more than +Copernicus, and that even the minor prophets ex- +celled the inventors and discoverers of our time-- +then I will admit that infidelity must become speech- +less forever. Until I read this sermon, I had never +even suspected that the inventions of modern times +were known to the ancient Jews. I never supposed +that Nahum knew the least thing about railroads, or +that Job would have known a telegraph if he had seen +it. I never supposed that Joshua comprehended the +three laws of Kepler. Of course I have not read +the Old Testament with as much care as some other +people have, and when I did read it, I was not looking +for inventions and discoveries. I had been told so +often that the Bible was no authority upon scientific +questions, that I was lulled into a state of lethargy. +What is amazing to me is, that so many men did +read it without getting the slightest hint of the +smallest invention. To think that the Jews read that +book for hundreds and hundreds of years, and yet +went to their graves without the slightest notion of +astronomy, or geology, of railroads, telegraphs, or +steamboats! And then to think that the early fathers + +61 + +made it the study of their lives and died without in- +venting anything! I am astonished that Mr. Talmage +himself does not figure in the records of the Patent +Office. I cannot account for this, except upon the +supposition that he is too honest to infringe on the +patents of the patriarchs. After this, I shall read +the Old Testament with more care. + +_Question_. Do you see that Mr. Talmage endeav- +ors to convict you of great ignorance in not knowing +that the word translated "rib" should have been +translated "side," and that Eve, after all, was not +made out of a rib, but out of Adam's side? + +_Answer_. I may have been misled by taking the +Bible as it is translated. The Bible account is simply +this: "And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall +"upon Adam, and he slept. And he took one of +"his ribs and closed up the flesh instead thereof; +"and the rib which the Lord God had taken from +"man made he a woman, and brought her unto the +"man. And Adam said: This is now bone of my +"bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called +"woman, because she was taken out of man." If +Mr. Talmage is right, then the account should be as +follows: "And the Lord God caused a deep sleep + +62 + +"to fall upon Adam, and he slept; and he took one +"of his sides, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; +"and the side which the Lord God had taken from +"man made he a woman, and brought her unto the +"man. And Adam said: This is now side of my +"side, and flesh of my flesh." I do not see that the +story is made any better by using the word "side" +instead of "rib." It would be just as hard for God +to make a woman out of a man's side as out of a +rib. Mr. Talmage ought not to question the power +of God to make a woman out of a bone, and he must +recollect that the less the material the greater the +miracle. + +There are two accounts of the creation of man, +in Genesis, the first being in the twenty-first verse +of the first chapter and the second being in the +twenty-first and twenty-second verses of the sec- +ond chapter. + +According to the second account, "God formed +"man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into +"his nostrils the breath of life." And after this, +"God planted a garden eastward in Eden and put +"the man" in this garden. After this, "He made +"every tree to grow that was good for food and +"pleasant to the sight," and, in addition, "the tree + +63 + +"of life in the midst of the garden," beside "the tree +"of the knowledge of good and evil." And he "put +"the man in the garden to dress it and keep it," +telling him that he might eat of everything he saw +except of "the tree of the knowledge of good and +"evil." + +After this, God having noticed that it "was not +"good for man to be alone, formed out of the ground +"every beast of the field, every fowl of the air, and +"brought them to Adam to see what he would call +"them, and Adam gave names to all cattle, and to +"the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field. +"But for Adam there was not found an helpmeet for +"him." + +We are not told how Adam learned the language, +or how he understood what God said. I can hardly +believe that any man can be created with the know- +ledge of a language. Education cannot be ready +made and stuffed into a brain. Each person must +learn a language for himself. Yet in this account we +find a language ready made for man's use. And not +only man was enabled to speak, but a serpent also +has the power of speech, and the woman holds a +conversation with this animal and with her husband; +and yet no account is given of how any language was + +64 + +learned. God is described as walking in the garden +in the cool of the day, speaking like a man--holding +conversations with the man and woman, and occa- +sionally addressing the serpent. + +In the nursery rhymes of the world there is +nothing more childish than this "inspired" account +of the creation of man and woman. + +The early fathers of the church held that woman +was inferior to man, because man was not made for +woman, but woman for man; because Adam was +made first and Eve afterward. They had not the +gallantry of Robert Burns, who accounted for the +beauty of woman from the fact that God practiced +on man first, and then gave woman the benefit of +his experience. Think, in this age of the world, +of a well-educated, intelligent gentleman telling his +little child that about six thousand years ago a +mysterious being called God made the world out of +his "omnipotence;" then made a man out of some +dust which he is supposed to have moulded into +form; that he put this man in a garden for the pur- +pose of keeping the trees trimmed; that after a little +while he noticed that the man seemed lonesome, not +particularly happy, almost homesick; that then it oc- +curred to this God, that it would be a good thing for + +65 + +the man to have some company, somebody to help +him trim the trees, to talk to him and cheer him up +on rainy days; that, thereupon, this God caused +a deep sleep to fall on the man, took a knife, or a +long, sharp piece of "omnipotence," and took out one +of the man's sides, or a rib, and of that made a +woman; that then this man and woman got along +real well till a snake got into the garden and induced +the woman to eat of the tree of the knowledge of +good and evil; that the woman got the man to take +a bite; that afterwards both of them were detected by +God, who was walking around in the cool of the +evening, and thereupon they were turned out of the +garden, lest they should put forth their hands and eat +of the tree of life, and live forever. + +This foolish story has been regarded as the sacred, +inspired truth; as an account substantially written by +God himself; and thousands and millions of people +have supposed it necessary to believe this childish +falsehood, in order to save their souls. Nothing +more laughable can be found in the fairy tales and +folk-lore of savages. Yet this is defended by the +leading Presbyterian divine, and those who fail to +believe in the truth of this story are called "brazen +"faced fools," "deicides," and "blasphemers." + +66 + +By this story woman in all Christian countries was +degraded. She was considered too impure to preach +the gospel, too impure to distribute the sacramental +bread, too impure to hand about the sacred wine, +too impure to step within the "holy of holies," in the +Catholic Churches, too impure to be touched by a +priest. Unmarried men were considered purer than +husbands and fathers. Nuns were regarded as su- +perior to mothers, a monastery holier than a home, a +nunnery nearer sacred than the cradle. And through +all these years it has been thought better to love +God than to love man, better to love God than to +love your wife and children, better to worship an +imaginary deity than to help your fellow-men. + +I regard the rights of men and women equal. In +Love's fair realm, husband and wife are king and +queen, sceptered and crowned alike, and seated on +the self-same throne. + +_Question_. Do you still insist that the Old Testa- +ment upholds polygamy? Mr. Talmage denies this +charge, and shows how terribly God punished those +who were not satisfied with one wife. + +_Answer_. I see nothing in what Mr. Talmage has +said calculated to change my opinion. It has been + +67 + +admitted by thousands of theologians that the Old +Testament upholds polygamy. Mr. Talmage is +among the first to deny it. It will not do to say that +David was punished for the crime of polygamy +or concubinage. He was "a man after God's own +"heart." He was made a king. He was a successful +general, and his blood is said to have flowed in the +veins of God. Solomon was, according to the ac- +count, enriched with wisdom above all human beings. +Was that a punishment for having had so many +wives? Was Abraham pursued by the justice of +God because of the crime against Hagar, or for the +crime against his own wife? The verse quoted by +Mr. Talmage to show that God was opposed to +polygamy, namely, the eighteenth verse of the eight- +eenth chapter of Leviticus, cannot by any ingenuity +be tortured into a command against polygamy. The +most that can be possibly said of it is, that you shall +not marry the sister of your wife, while your wife is +living. Yet this passage is quoted by Mr. Talmage +as "a thunder of prohibition against having more +"than one wife." In the twentieth chapter of +Leviticus it is enacted: "That if a man take a wife +"and her mother they shall be burned with fire." A +commandment like this shows that he might take his + +68 + +wife and somebody else's mother. These passages +have nothing to do with polygamy. They show +whom you may marry, not how many; and there is +not in Leviticus a solitary word against polygamy-- +not one. Nor is there such a word in Genesis, nor +Exodus, nor in the entire Pentateuch--not one +word. These books are filled with the most minute +directions about killing sheep, and goats and doves; +about making clothes for priests, about fashioning +tongs and snuffers; and yet, they contain not one +word against polygamy. It never occurred to the in- +spired writers that polygamy was a crime. Polygamy +was accepted as a matter of course. Women were +simple property. + +Mr. Talmage, however, insists that, although God +was against polygamy, he permitted it, and at the +same time threw his moral influence against it. +Upon this subject he says: "No doubt God per- +"mitted polygamy to continue for sometime, just +"as he permits murder and arson, theft and gam- +"bling to-day to continue, although he is against +"them." If God is the author of the Ten Com- +mandments, he prohibited murder and theft, but +he said nothing about polygamy. If he was so +terribly against that crime, why did he forget to + +69 + +mention it? Was there not room enough on the +tables of stone for just one word on this subject? +Had he no time to give a commandment against +slavery? Mr. Talmage of course insists that God +had to deal with these things gradually, his idea being +that if God had made a commandment against them all +at once, the Jews would have had nothing more to do +with him. + +For instance: if we wanted to break cannibals +of eating missionaries, we should not tell them all +at once that it was wrong, that it was wicked, to +eat missionaries raw; we should induce them first +to cook the missionaries, and gradually wean them +from raw flesh. This would be the first great step. +We would stew the missionaries, and after a time +put a little mutton in the stew, not enough to excite +the suspicion of the cannibal, but just enough to get +him in the habit of eating mutton without knowing it. +Day after day we would put in more mutton and less +missionary, until finally, the cannibal would be perfectly +satisfied with clear mutton. Then we would tell him +that it was wrong to eat missionary. After the can- +nibal got so that he liked mutton, and cared nothing +for missionary, then it would be safe to have a law +upon the subject. + +70 + +Mr. Talmage insists that polygamy cannot exist +among people who believe the Bible. In this he is +mistaken. The Mormons all believe the Bible. There +is not a single polygamist in Utah who does not insist +upon the inspiration of the Old and New Testaments. + +The Rev. Mr. Newman, a kind of peripatetic consu- +lar theologian, once had a discussion, I believe, with +Elder Orson Pratt, at Salt Lake City, upon the question +of polygamy. It is sufficient to say of this discussion +that it is now circulated by the Mormons as a campaign +document. The elder overwhelmed the parson. +Passages of Scripture in favor of polygamy were +quoted by the hundred. The lives of all the patriarchs +were brought forward, and poor parson Newman was +driven from the field. The truth is, the Jews at that +time were much like our forefathers. They were +barbarians, and many of their laws were unjust +and cruel. Polygamy was the right of all; practiced, +as a matter of fact, by the rich and powerful, and the +rich and powerful were envied by the poor. In such +esteem did the ancient Jews hold polygamy, that the +number of Solomons wives was given, simply to en- +hance his glory. My own opinion is, that Solomon +had very few wives, and that polygamy was not +general in Palestine. The country was too poor, and + +71 + +Solomon, in all his glory was hardly able to support +one wife. He was a poor barbarian king with a +limited revenue, with a poor soil, with a sparse popu- +lation, without art, without science and without power. +He sustained about the same relation to other kings +that Delaware does to other States. Mr. Talmage +says that God persecuted Solomon, and yet, if he will +turn to the twenty-second chapter of First Chronicles, +he will find what God promised to Solomon. God, +speaking to David, says: "Behold a son shall be born +"to thee, who shall be a man of rest, and I will give him +"rest from his enemies around about; for his name shall +"be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness +"unto Israel in his days. He shall build a house in my +"name, and he shall be my son and I will be his father, +"and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over +"Israel forever." Did God keep his promise? + +So he tells us that David was persecuted by +God, on account of his offences, and yet I find in +the twenty-eighth verse of the twenty-ninth chapter +of First Chronicles, the following account of the death +of David: "And he died in a good old age, full of +"days, riches and honor." Is this true? + +_Question_. What have you to say to the charge +that you were mistaken in the number of years that + +72 + +the Hebrews were in Egypt? Mr. Talmage says that +they were there 430 years, instead of 215 years. + +_Answer_. If you will read the third chapter of +Galatians, sixteenth and seventeenth verses, you will +find that it was 430 years from the time God made the +promise to Abraham to the giving of the law from +Mount Sinai. The Hebrews did not go to Egypt for +215 years after the promise was made to Abraham, +and consequently did not remain in Egypt more than +215 years. If Galatians is true, I am right. + +Strange that Mr. Talmage should belittle the mira- +cles. The trouble with this defender of the faith is that +he cares nothing for facts. He makes the strangest +statements, and cares the least for proof, of any +man I know. I can account for what he says of me +only upon the supposition that he has not read my +lectures. He may have been misled by the pirated +editions; Persons have stolen my lectures, printed the +same ones under various names, and filled them with +mistakes and things I never said. Mr. C. P. Farrell, +of Washington, is my only authorized publisher. +Yet Mr. Talmage prefers to answer the mistakes of +literary thieves, and charge their ignorance to me. + +_Question_. Did you ever attack the character of +Queen Victoria, or did you draw any parallel between + +73 + +her and George Eliot, calculated to depreciate the +reputation of the Queen? + +_Answer_. I never said a word against Victoria. +The fact is, I am not acquainted with her--never met +her in my life, and know but little of her. I never +happened to see her "in plain clothes, reading the +"Bible to the poor in the lane,"--neither did I ever +hear her sing. I most cheerfully admit that her +reputation is good in the neighborhood where she +resides. In one of my lectures I drew a parallel +between George Eliot and Victoria. I was showing +the difference between a woman who had won her +position in the world of thought, and one who was +queen by chance. This is what I said: + +"It no longer satisfies the ambition of a great man +"to be a king or emperor. The last Napoleon was +"not satisfied with being the Emperor of the French. +"He was not satisfied with having a circlet of gold +"about his head--he wanted some evidence that he +"had something of value in his head. So he wrote +"the life of Julius Cæsar that he might become a +"member of the French Academy. The emperors, +"the kings, the popes, no longer tower above their +"fellows. Compare King William with the philoso- +"pher Hæckel. The king is one of the 'anointed + +74 + +"'of the Most High'--as they claim--one upon +"whose head has been poured the divine petroleum +"of authority. Compare this king with Hæckel, who +"towers an intellectual Colossus above the crowned +"mediocrity. Compare George Eliot with Queen +"Victoria. The queen is clothed in garments given +"her by blind fortune and unreasoning chance, while +"George Eliot wears robes of glory, woven in the +"loom of her own genius. The world is beginning +"to pay homage to intellect, to genius, to heart." +I said not one word against Queen Victoria, and did +not intend to even intimate that she was not an ex- +cellent woman, wife and mother. I was simply trying +to show that the world was getting great enough to +place a genius above an accidental queen. Mr. Tal- +mage, true to the fawning, cringing spirit of ortho- +doxy, lauds the living queen and cruelly maligns the +genius dead. He digs open the grave of George Eliot, +and tries to stain the sacred dust of one who was the +greatest woman England has produced. He calls her +"an adultress." He attacks her because she was an +atheist--because she abhorred Jehovah, denied the +inspiration of the Bible, denied the dogma of eternal +pain, and with all her heart despised the Presbyterian +creed. He hates her because she was great and brave + +75 + +and free--because she lived without "faith" and died +without fear--because she dared to give her honest +thought, and grandly bore the taunts and slanders of +the Christian world. + +George Eliot tenderly carried in her heart the +burdens of our race. She looked through pity's tears +upon the faults and frailties of mankind. She knew +the springs and seeds of thought and deed, and saw, +with cloudless eyes, through all the winding ways of +greed, ambition and deceit, where folly vainly plucks +with thorn-pierced hands the fading flowers of selfish +joy--the highway of eternal right. Whatever her +relations may have been--no matter what I think, or +others say, or how much all regret the one mistake in +all her self-denying, loving life--I feel and know that +in the court where her own conscience sat as judge, she +stood acquitted--pure as light and stainless as a star. + +How appropriate here, with some slight change, +the wondrously poetic and pathetic words of Laertes +at Ophelia's grave: + + _Leave her i' the earth; + And from her fair and unpolluted flesh + May violets spring! + I tell thee, churlish priest, + A ministering angel shall this woman be, + When thou liest howling!_ + +I have no words with which to tell my loathing for +a man who violates a noble woman's grave. + +76 + +_Question_. Do you think that the spirit in which +Mr. Talmage reviews your lectures is in accordance +with the teachings of Christianity? + +_Answer_. I think that he talks like a true Presby- +terian. If you will read the arguments of Calvin +against the doctrines of Castalio and Servetus, you will +see that Mr. Talmage follows closely in the footsteps +of the founder of his church. Castalio was such a +wicked and abandoned wretch, that he taught the +innocence of honest error. He insisted that God +would not eternally damn a man for being honestly +mistaken. For the utterance of such blasphemous +sentiments, abhorrent to every Christian mind, Calvin +called him "a dog of Satan, and a child of hell." In +short, he used the usual arguments. Castalio was +banished, and died in exile. In the case of Servetus, +after all the epithets had been exhausted, an appeal +was made to the stake, and the blasphemous wretch +was burned to ashes. + +If you will read the life of John Knox, you will find +that Mr. Talmage is as orthodox in his methods of +dealing with infidels, as he is in his creed. In my +opinion, he would gladly treat unbelievers now, as the +Puritans did the Quakers, as the Episcopalians did the +Presbyterians, as the Presbyterians did the Baptists, + +77 + +and as the Catholics have treated all heretics. Of +course, all these sects will settle their differences in +heaven. In the next world, they will laugh at the +crimes they committed in this. + +The course pursued by Mr. Talmage is consistent. +The pulpit cannot afford to abandon the weapons of +falsehood and defamation. Candor sows the seeds of +doubt. Fairness is weakness. The only way to suc- +cessfully uphold the religion of universal love, is to +denounce all Freethinkers as blasphemers, adulterers, +and criminals. No matter how generous they may +appear to be, no matter how fairly they may deal with +their fellow-men, rest assured that they are actuated +by the lowest and basest motives. Infidels who out- +wardly live honest and virtuous lives, are inwardly +vicious, virulent and vile. After all, morality is only +a veneering. God is not deceived with the varnish of +good works. We know that the natural man is +totally depraved, and that until he has been regene- +rated by the spirit of God, he is utterly incapable of a +good action. The generosity of the unbeliever is, in +fact, avarice. His honesty is only a form of larceny. +His love is only hatred. No matter how sincerely +he may love his wife,--how devoted he may be to +his children,--no matter how ready he may be 'to + +78 + +sacrifice even his life for the good of mankind, God, +looking into his very heart, finds it only a den of +hissing snakes, a lair of wild, ferocious beasts, a cage +of unclean birds. + +The idea that God will save a man simply because +he is honest and generous, is almost too preposterous +for serious refutation. No man should rely upon his +own goodness. He should plead the virtue of another. +God, in his infinite justice, damns a good man on his +own merits, and saves a bad man on the merits of +another. The repentant murderer will be an angel +of light, while his honest and unoffending victim will +be a fiend in hell. + +A little while ago, a ship, disabled, was blown about +the Atlantic for eighty days. Everything had been +eaten. Nothing remained but bare decks and hunger. +The crew consisted of Captain Kruger and nine others. +For nine days, nothing had been eaten. The captain, +taking a revolver in his hand, said: "Mates, some +"one must die for the rest. I am willing to sacrifice +"myself for you." One of his comrades grasped his +hand, and implored him to wait one more day. The +next morning, a sail was seen upon the horizon, and +the dying men were rescued. + +To an ordinary man,--to one guided by the light of + +79 + +reason,--it is perfectly clear that Captain Kruger was +about to do an infinitely generous action. Yet Mr. +Talmage will tell us that if that captain was not a +Christian, and if he had sent the bullet crashing +through his brain in order that his comrades might eat +his body, and live to reach their wives and homes,-- +his soul, from that ship, would have gone, by dark +and tortuous ways, down to the prison of eternal pain. + +Is it possible that Christ would eternally damn a +man for doing exactly what Christ would have done, +had he been infinitely generous, under the same cir- +cumstances? Is not self-denial in a man as praise- +worthy as in a God? Should a God be worshiped, +and a man be damned, for the same action? + +According to Mr. Talmage, every soldier who fought +for our country in the Revolutionary war, who was +not a Christian, is now in hell. Every soldier, not a +Christian, who carried the flag of his country to vic- +tory--either upon the land or sea, in the war of 1812, +is now in hell. Every soldier, not a Christian, who +fought for the preservation of this Union,--to break +the chains of slavery--to free four millions of people +--to keep the whip from the naked back--every man +who did this--every one who died at Andersonville +and Libby, dreaming that his death would help make + +80 + +the lives of others worth living, is now a lost and +wretched soul. These men are now in the prison of +God,--a prison in which the cruelties of Libby and +Andersonville would be regarded as mercies,--in +which famine would be a joy. + + + + +THIRD INTERVIEW. + +_Sinner. Is God infinite in wisdom and power? + +Parson. He is. + +Sinner. Does he at all times know just what ought +to be done? + +Parson. He does. + +Sinner. Does he always do just what ought to be +done? + +Parson. He does. + +Sinner. Why do you pray to him? + +Parson. Because he is unchangeable._ + +_Question_. I want to ask you a few questions +about Mr. Talmage's third sermon. What do +you think of it? + +_Answer_. I often ask myself the questions: Is +there anything in the occupation of a minister,--any- +thing in his surroundings, that makes him incapable +of treating an opponent fairly, or decently? Is there +anything in the doctrine of universal forgiveness that +compels a man to speak of one who differs with him +only in terms of disrespect and hatred? Is it neces- +sary for those who profess to love the whole world, +to hate the few they come in actual contact with? + +84 + +Mr. Talmage, no doubt, professes to love all man- +kind,--Jew and Gentile, Christian and Pagan. No +doubt, he believes in the missionary effort, and thinks +we should do all in our power to save the soul of the +most benighted savage; and yet he shows anything +but affection for the "heathen" at home. He loves +the ones he never saw,--is real anxious for their wel- +fare,--but for the ones he knows, he exhibits only +scorn and hatred. In one breath, he tells us that +Christ loves us, and in the next, that we are "wolves +"and dogs." We are informed that Christ forgave +even his murderers, but that now he hates an honest +unbeliever with all his heart. He can forgive the +ones who drove the nails into his hands and feet,-- +the one who thrust the spear through his quivering +flesh,--but he cannot forgive the man who entertains +an honest doubt about the "scheme of salvation." +He regards the man who thinks, as a "mouth-maker +"at heaven." Is it possible that Christ is less for- +giving in heaven than he was in Jerusalem? Did he +excuse murderers then, and does he damn thinkers +now? Once he pitied even thieves; does he now +abhor an intellectually honest man? + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage seems to think that you +have no right to give your opinion about the Bible. + +85 + +Do you think that laymen have the same right as +ministers to examine the Scriptures? + +_Answer_. If God only made a revelation for +preachers, of course we will have to depend on the +preachers for information. But the preachers have +made the mistake of showing the revelation. They +ask us, the laymen, to read it, and certainly there is +no use of reading it, unless we are permitted to think +for ourselves while we read. If after reading the Bible +we believe it to be true, we will say so, if we are +honest. If we do not believe it, we will say so, if we +are honest. + +But why should God be so particular about our +believing the stories in his book? Why should God +object to having his book examined? We do not +have to call upon legislators, or courts, to protect +Shakespeare from the derision of mankind. Was not +God able to write a book that would command the +love and admiration of the world? If the God of +Mr. Talmage is infinite, he knew exactly how the +stories of the Old Testament would strike a gentle- +man of the nineteenth century. He knew that many +would have their doubts,--that thousands of them-- +and I may say most of them,--would refuse to believe +that a miracle had ever been performed. + +86 + +Now, it seems to me that he should either have left +the stories out, or furnished evidence enough to con- +vince the world. According to Mr. Talmage, thou- +sands of people are pouring over the Niagara of +unbelief into the gulf of eternal pain. Why does not +God furnish more evidence? Just in proportion as +man has developed intellectually, he has demanded +additional testimony. That which satisfies a barbarian, +excites only the laughter of a civilized man. Cer- +tainly God should furnish evidence in harmony with +the spirit of the age. If God wrote his Bible for the +average man, he should have written it in such a way +that it would have carried conviction to the brain and +heart of the average man; and he should have +made no man in such a way that he could not, by any +possibility, believe it. There certainly should be a +harmony between the Bible and the human brain. If +I do not believe the Bible, whose fault is it? Mr. +Talmage insists that his God wrote the Bible for me. +and made me. If this is true, the book and the man +should agree. There is no sense in God writing +a book for me and then making me in such a way that +I cannot believe his book. + +_Question_. But Mr. Talmage says the reason why +you hate the Bible is, that your soul is poisoned; that + +87 + +the Bible "throws you into a rage precisely as pure +"water brings on a paroxysm of hydrophobia." + +_Answer_. Is it because the mind of the infidel is +poisoned, that he refuses to believe that an infinite +God commanded the murder of mothers, maidens and +babes? Is it because their minds are impure, that +they refuse to believe that a good God established +the institution of human slavery, or that he protected +it when established? Is it because their minds are +vile, that they refuse to believe that an infinite God +established or protected polygamy? Is it a sure +sign of an impure mind, when a man insists that +God never waged wars of extermination against his +helpless children? Does it show that a man has +been entirely given over to the devil, because he +refuses to believe that God ordered a father to sacri- +fice his son? Does it show that a heart is entirely +without mercy, simply because a man denies the +justice of eternal pain? + +I denounce many parts of the Old Testament +because they are infinitely repugnant to my sense +of justice,--because they are bloody, brutal and in- +famous,--because they uphold crime and destroy +human liberty. It is impossible for me to imagine +a greater monster than the God of the Old Testa- + +88 + +ment. He is unworthy of my worship. He com- +mands only my detestation, my execration, and my +passionate hatred. The God who commanded the +murder of children is an infamous fiend. The God +who believed in polygamy, is worthy only of con- +tempt. The God who established slavery should be +hated by every free man. The Jehovah of the Jews +was simply a barbarian, and the Old Testament is +mostly the barbarous record of a barbarous people. + +If the Jehovah of the Jews is the real God, I do +not wish to be his friend. From him I neither ask, +nor expect, nor would I be willing to receive, even an +eternity of joy. According to the Old Testament, +he established a government,--a political state,--and +yet, no civilized country to-day would re-enact these +laws of God. + +_Question_. What do you think of the explanation +given by Mr. Talmage of the stopping of the sun and +moon in the time of Joshua, in order that a battle +might be completed? + +_Answer_. Of course, if there is an infinite God, +he could have stopped the sun and moon. No one +pretends to prescribe limits to the power of the +infinite. Even admitting that such a being existed, +the question whether he did stop the sun and moon, + +89 + +or not, still remains. According to the account, these +planets were stopped, in order that Joshua might con- +tinue the pursuit of a routed enemy. I take it for +granted that a being of infinite wisdom would not +waste any force,--that he would not throw away any +"omnipotence," and that, under ordinary circum- +stances, he would husband his resources. I find that +this spirit exists, at least in embryo, in Mr. Talmage. +He proceeds to explain this miracle. He does not +assert that the earth was stopped on its axis, but sug- +gests "refraction" as a way out of the difficulty. Now, +while the stopping of the earth on its axis accounts for +the sun remaining in the same relative position, it does +not account for the stoppage of the moon. The moon +has a motion of its own, and even if the earth had been +stopped in its rotary motion, the moon would have gone +on. The Bible tells us that the moon was stopped. One +would suppose that the sun would have given sufficient +light for all practical purposes. Will Mr. Talmage be +kind enough to explain the stoppage of the moon? +Every one knows that the moon is somewhat obscure +when the sun is in the midst of the heavens. The moon +when compared with the sun at such a time, is much +like one of the discourses of Mr. Talmage side by side +with a chapter from Humboldt;--it is useless. + +90 + +In the same chapter in which the account of the +stoppage of the sun and moon is given, we find that +God cast down from heaven great hailstones on +Joshua's enemies. Did he get out of hailstones? +Had he no "omnipotence" left? Was it necessary +for him to stop the sun and moon and depend entirely +upon the efforts of Joshua? Would not the force +employed in stopping the rotary motion of the earth +have been sufficient to destroy the enemy? Would +not a millionth part of the force necessary to stop the +moon, have pierced the enemy's centre, and rolled up +both his flanks? A resort to lightning would have +been, in my judgment, much more economical and +rather more effective. If he had simply opened the +earth, and swallowed them, as he did Korah and his +company, it would have been a vast saving of +"omnipotent" muscle. Yet, the foremost orthodox +minister of the Presbyterian Church,--the one who +calls all unbelievers "wolves and dogs," and "brazen +"fools," in his effort to account for this miracle, is +driven to the subterfuge of an "optical illusion." +We are seriously informed that "God probably +"changed the nature of the air," and performed this +feat of ledgerdemain through the instrumentality of +"refraction." It seems to me it would have been fully + +91 + +as easy to have changed the nature of the air breathed +by the enemy, so that it would not have supported +life. He could have accomplished this by changing +only a little air, in that vicinity; whereas, according +to the Talmagian view, he changed the atmosphere +of the world. Or, a small "local flood" might have +done the work. The optical illusion and refraction +view, ingenious as it may appear, was not original +with Mr. Talmage. The Rev. Henry M. Morey, of +South Bend, Indiana, used, upon this subject, the fol- +lowing language; "The phenomenon was simply +"optical. The rotary motion of the earth was not +"disturbed, but the light of the sun was prolonged by +"the same laws of refraction and reflection by which +"the sun now appears to be above the horizon when +"it is really below. The medium through which the +"sun's rays passed, might have been miraculously +"influenced so as to have caused the sun to linger +"above the horizon long after its usual time for dis- +"appearance." + +I pronounce the opinion of Mr. Morey to be the +ripest product of Christian scholarship. According to +the Morey-Talmage view, the sun lingered somewhat +above the horizon. But this is inconsistent with the +Bible account. We are not told in the Scriptures that + +92 + +the sun "lingered above the horizon," but that it "stood +"still in the midst of heaven for about a whole day." +The trouble about the optical-illusion view is, that it +makes the day too long. If the air was miraculously +changed, so that it refracted the rays of the sun, while +the earth turned over as usual for about a whole day, +then, at the end of that time, the sun must have been +again visible in the east. It would then naturally +shine twelve hours more, so that this miraculous day +must have been at least thirty-six hours in length. +There were first twelve hours of natural light, then +twelve hours of refracted and reflected light, and then +twelve hours more of natural light. This makes the +day too long. So, I say to Mr. Talmage, as I said to +Mr. Morey: If you will depend a little less on +refraction, and a little more on reflection, you will see +that the whole story is a barbaric myth and foolish +fable. + +For my part, I do not see why God should be +pleased to have me believe a story of this character. +I can hardly think that there is great joy in heaven +over another falsehood swallowed. I can imagine +that a man may deny this story, and still be an excel- +lent citizen, a good father, an obliging neighbor, and +in all respects a just and truthful man. I can also + +93 + +imagine that a man may believe this story, and yet +assassinate a President of the United States. + +I am afraid that Mr. Talmage is beginning to be +touched, in spite of himself, with some new ideas. He +tells us that worlds are born and that worlds die. +This is not exactly the Bible view. You would think +that he imagined that a world was naturally pro- +duced,--that the aggregation of atoms was natural, +and that disintegration came to worlds, as to men, +through old age. Yet this is not the Bible view. +According to the Bible, these worlds were not born,-- +they were created out of "nothing," or out of +"omnipotence," which is much the same. According +to the Bible, it took this infinite God six days to make +this atom called earth; and according to the account, +he did not work nights,--he worked from the morn- +ings to the evenings,--and I suppose rested nights, +as he has since that time on Sundays. + +Admitting that the battle which Joshua fought +was exceedingly important--which I do not think-- +is it not a little strange that this God, in all subse- +quent battles of the world's history, of which we +know anything, has maintained the strictest neu- +trality? The earth turned as usual at Yorktown, +and at Gettysburg the moon pursued her usual + +94 + +course; and so far as I know, neither at Waterloo +nor at Sedan were there any peculiar freaks of "re- +"fraction" or "reflection." + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage tells us that there was in +the early part of this century a dark day, when +workmen went home from their fields, and legis- +latures and courts adjourned, and that the darkness +of that day has not yet been explained. What is +your opinion about that? + +_Answer_. My opinion is, that if at that time we +had been at war with England, and a battle had +been commenced in the morning, and in the after- +noon the American forces had been driven from their +position and were hard pressed by the enemy, and +if the day had become suddenly dark, and so dark +that the Americans were thereby enabled to escape, +thousands of theologians of the calibre of Mr. Tal- +mage would have honestly believed that there had +been an interposition of divine Providence. No +battle was fought that day, and consequently, even +the ministers are looking for natural causes. In +olden times, when the heavens were visited by +comets, war, pestilence and famine were predicted. +If wars came, the prediction was remembered; if + +95 + +nothing happened, it was forgotten. When eclipses +visited the sun and moon, the barbarian fell upon his +knees, and accounted for the phenomena by the +wickedness of his neighbor. Mr. Talmage tells us +that his father was terrified by the meteoric shower +that visited our earth in 1833. The terror of the +father may account for the credulity of the son. +Astronomers will be surprised to read the declaration +of Mr. Talmage that the meteoric shower has never +been explained. Meteors visit the earth every year +of its life, and in a certain portion of the orbit they +are always expected, and they always come. Mr. +Newcomb has written a work on astronomy that +all ministers ought to read. + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage also charges you with +"making light of holy things," and seems to be aston- +ished that you should ridicule the anointing oil of +Aaron? + +_Answer_. I find that the God who had no time to +say anything on the subject of slavery, and who found +no room upon the tables of stone to say a word +against polygamy, and in favor of the rights of +woman, wife and mother, took time to give a recipe +for making hair oil. And in order that the priests + +96 + +might have the exclusive right to manufacture this oil, +decreed the penalty of death on all who should +infringe. I admit that I am incapable of seeing the +beauty of this symbol. Neither could I ever see the +necessity of Masons putting oil on the corner-stone +of a building. Of course, I do not know the exact +chemical effect that oil has on stone, and I see no harm +in laughing at such a ceremony. If the oil does good, +the laughter will do no harm; and if the oil will do no +harm, the laughter will do no good. Personally, I am +willing that Masons should put oil on all stones; but, +if Masons should insist that I must believe in the effi- +cacy of the ceremony, or be eternally damned, I +would have about the same feeling toward the +Masons that I now have toward Mr. Talmage. I +presume that at one time the putting of oil on a +corner-stone had some meaning; but that it ever did +any good, no sensible man will insist. It is a custom +to break a bottle of champagne over the bow of +a newly-launched ship, but I have never considered +this ceremony important to the commercial interests +of the world. + +I have the same opinion about putting oil on +stones, as about putting water on heads. For my +part, I see no good in the rite of baptism. Still, it + +97 + +may do no harm, unless people are immersed during +cold weather. Neither have I the slightest objection +to the baptism of anybody; but if people tell me that +I must be baptized or suffer eternal agony, then I deny +it. If they say that baptism does any earthly good, I +deny it. No one objects to any harmless ceremony; +but the moment it is insisted that a ceremony is neces- +sary, the reason of which no man can see, then the +practice of the ceremony becomes hurtful, for the +reason that it is maintained only at the expense of +intelligence and manhood. + +It is hurtful for people to imagine that they can +please God by any ceremony whatever. If there is +any God, there is only one way to please him, and +that is, by a conscientious discharge of your obliga- +tions to your fellow-men. Millions of people imagine +that they can please God by wearing certain kinds +of cloth. Think of a God who can be pleased with +a coat of a certain cut! Others, to earn a smile of +heaven, shave their heads, or trim their beards, or +perforate their ears or lips or noses. Others maim +and mutilate their bodies. Others think to please +God by simply shutting their eyes, by swinging +censers, by lighting candles, by repeating poor Latin, +by making a sign of the cross with holy water, by + +98 + +ringing bells, by going without meat, by eating fish, +by getting hungry, by counting beads, by making +themselves miserable Sundays, by looking solemn, +by refusing to marry, by hearing sermons; and +others imagine that they can please God by calumni- +ating unbelievers. + +There is an old story of an Irishman who, when +dying, sent for a priest. The reputation of the +dying man was so perfectly miserable, that the priest +refused to administer the rite of extreme unction. +The priest therefore asked him if he could recollect +any decent action that he had ever done. The dying +man said that he could not. "Very well," said the +priest, "then you will have to be damned." In a +moment, the pinched and pale face brightened, and +he said to the priest: "I have thought of one good +"action." "What is it?" asked the priest. And the +dying man said, "Once I killed a gauger." + +I suppose that in the next world some ministers, +driven to extremes, may reply: "Once I told a lie +"about an infidel." + +_Question_. You see that Mr. Talmage still sticks to +the whale and Jonah story. What do you think of +his argument, or of his explanation, rather, of that +miracle? + +99 + +_Answer_. The edge of his orthodoxy seems to be +crumbling. He tells us that "there is in the mouth +"of the common whale a cavity large enough for a +"man to live in without descent into his stomach,"-- +and yet Christ says, that Jonah was in the whale's +belly, not in his mouth. But why should Mr. Tal- +mage say that? We are told in the sacred account +that "God prepared a great fish" for the sole pur- +pose of having Jonah swallowed. The size of the +present whale has nothing to do with the story. No +matter whether the throat of the whale of to-day is +large or small,--that has nothing to do with it. The +simple story is, that God prepared a fish and had +Jonah swallowed. And yet Mr. Talmage throws out +the suggestion that probably this whale held Jonah +in his mouth for three days and nights. I admit that +Jonah's chance for air would have been a little better +in his mouth, and his chance for water a little worse. +Probably the whale that swallowed Jonah was the +same fish spoken of by Procopius,--both accounts +being entitled, in my judgment, to equal credence. +I am a little surprised that Mr. Talmage forgot +to mention the fish spoken of by Munchausen--an +equally reliable author,--and who has given, not +simply the bald fact that a fish swallowed a ship, but + +100 + +was good enough to furnish the details. Mr. Talmage +should remember that out of Jonah's biography +grew the habit of calling any remarkable lie, "a fish +"story." There is one thing that Mr. Talmage +should not forget; and that is, that miracles should +not be explained. Miracles are told simply to be +believed, not to be understood. + +Somebody suggested to Mr. Talmage that, in +all probability, a person in the stomach of a whale +would be digested in less than three days. Mr. Tal- +mage, again showing his lack of confidence in God, +refusing to believe that God could change the nature +of gastric juice,--having no opportunity to rely +upon "refraction or reflection," frankly admits that +Jonah had to save himself by keeping on the +constant go and jump. This gastric-juice theory of +Mr. Talmage is an abandonment of his mouth hy- +pothesis. I do not wonder that Mr. Talmage thought +of the mouth theory. Possibly, the two theories had +better be united--so that we may say that Jonah, +when he got tired of the activity necessary to +avoid the gastric juice, could have strolled into +the mouth for a rest. What a picture! Jonah +sitting on the edge of the lower jaw, wiping the +perspiration and the gastric juice from his anxious + +101 + +face, and vainly looking through the open mouth +for signs of land! + +In this story of Jonah, we are told that "the Lord +"spake unto the fish." In what language? It must +be remembered that this fish was only a few hours +old. He had been prepared during the storm, for +the sole purpose of swallowing Jonah. He was a +fish of exceedingly limited experience. He had no +hereditary knowledge, because he did not spring +from ancestors; consequently, he had no instincts. +Would such a fish understand any language? It +may be contended that the fish, having been made +for the occasion, was given a sufficient knowledge +of language to understand an ordinary command- +ment; but, if Mr. Talmage is right, I think an order +to the fish would have been entirely unnecessary. +When we take into consideration that a thing the +size of a man had been promenading up and down +the stomach of this fish for three days and three +nights, successfully baffling the efforts of gastric +juice, we can readily believe that the fish was as +anxious to have Jonah go, as Jonah was to leave. + +But the whale part is, after all, not the most won- +derful portion of the book of Jonah. According to +this wonderful account, "the word of the Lord came + +102 + +"to Jonah," telling him to "go and cry against the +"city of Nineveh;" but Jonah, instead of going, +endeavored to evade the Lord by taking ship for +Tarshish. As soon as the Lord heard of this, he +"sent out a great wind into the sea," and frightened +the sailors to that extent that after assuring them- +selves, by casting lots, that Jonah was the man, they +threw him into the sea. After escaping from the +whale, he went to Nineveh, and delivered his pre- +tended message from God. In consequence of his +message, Jonah having no credentials from God,-- +nothing certifying to his official character, the King +of Nineveh covered himself with sack-cloth and sat +down in some ashes. He then caused a decree to +be issued that every man and beast should abstain +from food and water; and further, that every man and +beast should be covered with sack-cloth. This was +done in the hope that Jonah's God would repent, and +turn away his fierce anger. When we take into con- +sideration the fact that the people of Nineveh were +not Hebrews, and had not the slightest confidence in +the God of the Jews--knew no more of, and cared no +more for, Jehovah than we now care for Jupiter, or +Neptune; the effect produced by the proclamation of +Jonah is, to say the least of it, almost incredible. + +103 + +We are also informed, in this book, that the +moment God saw all the people sitting in the ashes, +and all the animals covered with sack-cloth, he +repented. This failure on the part of God to destroy +the unbelievers displeased Jonah exceedingly, and +he was very angry. Jonah was much like the +modern minister, who seems always to be personally +aggrieved if the pestilence and famine prophesied by +him do not come. Jonah was displeased to that +degree, that he asked God to kill him. Jonah then +went out of the city, even after God had repented, +made him a booth and sat under it, in the shade, +waiting to see what would become of the city. God +then "prepared a gourd, and made it to come up +"over Jonah that it might be a shadow over his +"head to deliver him from his grief." And then we +have this pathetic line: "So Jonah was exceedingly +"glad of the gourd." + +God having prepared a fish, and also prepared +a gourd, proposed next morning to prepare a worm. +And when the sun rose next day, the worm that +God had prepared, "smote the gourd, so that +"it withered." I can hardly believe that an in- +finite being prepared a worm to smite a gourd +so that it withered, in order to keep the sun from + +104 + +the bald head of a prophet. According to the +account, after sunrise, and after the worm had +smitten the gourd, "God prepared a vehement east +"wind." This was not an ordinary wind, but one +prepared expressly for that occasion. After the wind +had been prepared, "the sun beat upon the head of +"Jonah, and he fainted, and wished in himself to +"die." All this was done in order to convince +Jonah that a man who would deplore the loss of a +gourd, ought not to wish for the destruction of a city. + +Is it possible for any intelligent man now to +believe that the history of Jonah is literally true? +For my part, I cannot see the necessity either of +believing it, or of preaching it. It has nothing to do +with honesty, with mercy, or with morality. The +bad may believe it, and the good may hold it in +contempt. I do not see that civilization has the +slightest interest in the fish, the gourd, the worm, or +the vehement east wind. + +Does Mr. Talmage think that it is absolutely neces- +sary to believe _all_ the story? Does he not think it +probable that a God of infinite mercy, rather than +damn the soul of an honest man to hell forever, would +waive, for instance, the worm,--provided he believed +in the vehement east wind, the gourd and the fish? + +105 + +Mr. Talmage, by insisting on the literal truth of +the Bible stories, is doing Christianity great harm. +Thousands of young men will say: "I can't become +"a Christian if it is necessary to believe the adven- +"tures of Jonah." Mr. Talmage will put into the +paths of multitudes of people willing to do right, +anxious to make the world a little better than it is,-- +this stumbling block. He could have explained it, +called it an allegory, poetical license, a child of the +oriental imagination, a symbol, a parable, a poem, a +dream, a legend, a myth, a divine figure, or a great +truth wrapped in the rags and shreds and patches of +seeming falsehood. His efforts to belittle the miracle, +to suggest the mouth instead of the stomach,--to +suggest that Jonah took deck passage, or lodged in +the forecastle instead of in the cabin or steerage,-- +to suggest motion as a means of avoiding digestion, +is a serious theological blunder, and may cause the +loss of many souls. + +If Mr. Talmage will consult with other ministers, +they will tell him to let this story alone--that he will +simply "provoke investigation and discussion"--two +things to be avoided. They will tell him that they +are not willing their salary should hang on so slender +a thread, and will advise him not to bother his gourd + +106 + +about Jonah's. They will also tell him that in this +age of the world, arguments cannot be answered by +"a vehement east wind." + +Some people will think that it would have been +just as easy for God to have pulled the gourd up, as +to have prepared a worm to bite it. + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage charges that you have +said there are indecencies in the Bible. Are you +still of that opinion? + +_Answer_. Mr. Talmage endeavors to evade the +charge, by saying that "there are things in the Bible +"not intended to be read, either in the family circle, +"or in the pulpit, but nevertheless they are to be +"read." My own judgment is, that an infinite being +should not inspire the writing of indecent things. +It will not do to say, that the Bible description of sin +"warns and saves." There is nothing in the history +of Tamar calculated to "warn and save and the +same may be said of many other passages in the +Old Testament. Most Christians would be glad +to know that all such passages are interpolations. +I regret that Shakespeare ever wrote a line that +could not be read any where, and by any person. +But Shakespeare, great as he was, did not rise en- + +107 + +tirely above his time. So of most poets. Nearly all +have stained their pages with some vulgarity; and I +am sorry for it, and hope the time will come when +we shall have an edition of all the great writers and +poets from which every such passage is elimi- +nated. + +It is with the Bible as with most other books. It +is a mingling of good and bad. There are many +exquisite passages in the Bible,--many good laws,-- +many wise sayings,--and there are many passages +that should never have been written. I do not pro- +pose to throw away the good on account of the +bad, neither do I propose to accept the bad on +account of the good. The Bible need not be taken +as an entirety. It is the business of every man who +reads it, to discriminate between that which is good +and that which is bad. There are also many passages +neither good nor bad,--wholly and totally indifferent +--conveying 110 information--utterly destitute of +ideas,--and as to these passages, my only objection +to them is that they waste time and paper. + +I am in favor of every passage in the Bible that +conveys information. I am in favor of every wise +proverb, of every verse coming from human ex- +perience and that appeals to the heart of man. I am + +108 + +in favor of every passage that inculcates justice, +generosity, purity, and mercy. I am satisfied that +much of the historical part is false. Some of it +is probably true. Let us have the courage to take +the true, and throw the false away. I am satisfied +that many of the passages are barbaric, and many of +them are good. Let us have the wisdom to accept +the good and to reject the barbaric. + +No system of religion should go in partnership +with barbarism. Neither should any Christian feel +it his duty to defend the savagery of the past. The +philosophy of Christ must stand independently of the +mistakes of the Old Testament. We should do jus- +tice whether a woman was made from a rib or from +"omnipotence." We should be merciful whether +the flood was general, or local. We should be kind +and obliging whether Jonah was swallowed by a fish +or not. The miraculous has nothing to do with the +moral. Intelligence is of more value than inspiration. +Brain is better than Bible. Reason is above all +religion. I do not believe that any civilized human +being clings to the Bible on account of its barbaric +passages. I am candid enough to believe that every +Christian in the world would think more of the Bible, +if it had not upheld slavery, if it had denounced + +109 + +polygamy, if it had cried out against wars of exter- +mination, if it had spared women and babes, if it had +upheld everywhere, and at all times, the standard of +justice and mercy. But when it is claimed that the +book is perfect, that it is inspired, that it is, in fact, +the work of an infinitely wise and good God,--then +it should be without a defect. There should not be +within its lids an impure word; it should not express +an impure thought. There should not be one word +in favor of injustice, not one word in favor of slavery, +not one word in favor of wars of extermination. +There must be another revision of the Scriptures. +The chaff must be thrown away. The dross must +be rejected; and only that be retained which is in +exact harmony with the brain and heart of the +greatest and the best. + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage charges you with unfair- +ness, because you account for the death of art in +Palestine, by the commandment which forbids the +making of graven images. + +_Answer_. I have said that that commandment was +the death of art, and I say so still. I insist that by +reason of that commandment, Palestine produced no +painter and no sculptor until after the destruction of + +110 + +Jerusalem. Mr. Talmage, in order to answer that +statement, goes on to show that hundreds and thou- +sands of pictures were produced in the Middle Ages. +That is a departure in pleading. Will he give us the +names of the painters that existed in Palestine from +Mount Sinai to the destruction of the temple? Will +he give us the names of the sculptors between those +times? Mohammed prohibited his followers from +making any representation of human or animal life, +and as a result, Mohammedans have never produced +a painter nor a sculptor, except in the portrayal and +chiseling of vegetable forms. They were confined +to trees and vines, and flowers. No Mohammedan +has portrayed the human face or form. But the +commandment of Jehovah went farther than that of +Momammed, and prevented portraying the image of +anything. The assassination of art was complete. + +There is another thing that should not be forgotten. + +We are indebted for the encouragement of +art, not to the Protestant Church; if indebted to any, +it is to the Catholic. The Catholic adorned the cathedral + +with painting and statue--not the Protestant. +The Protestants opposed music and painting, and +refused to decorate their temples. But if Mr. Tal- +mage wishes to know to whom we are indebted for + +111 + +art, let him read the mythology of Greece and Rome. +The early Christians destroyed paintings and statues. +They were the enemies of all beauty. They hated +and detested every expression of art. They looked +upon the love of statues as a form of idolatry. They +looked upon every painting as a remnant of Pagan- +ism. They destroyed all upon which they could lay +their ignorant hands. Hundred of years afterwards, +the world was compelled to search for the fragments +that Christian fury had left. The Greeks filled the +world with beauty. For every stream and mountain +and cataract they had a god or goddess. Their +sculptors impersonated every dream and hope, and +their mythology feeds, to-day, the imagination of +mankind. The Venus de Milo is the impersonation +of beauty, in ruin--the sublimest fragment of the +ancient world. Our mythology is infinitely unpoetic +and barren--our deity an old bachelor from eternity, +who once believed in indiscriminate massacre. Upon +the throne of our heaven, woman finds no place. +Our mythology is destitute of the maternal. + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage denies your statement +that the Old Testament humiliates woman. He also +denies that the New Testament says anything +against woman. How is it? + +112 + +_Answer_. Of course, I never considered a book up- +holding polygamy to be the friend of woman. Eve, +according to that book, is the mother of us all, and +yet the inspired writer does not tell us how long she +lived,--does not even mention her death,--makes +not the slightest reference as to what finally became +of her. Methuselah lived nine hundred and sixty- +nine years, and yet, there is not the slightest mention +made of Mrs. Methuselah. Enoch was translated, +and his widow is not mentioned. There is not a +word about Mrs. Seth, or Mrs. Enos, or Mrs. Cainan, +or Mrs. Mahalaleel, or Mrs. Jared. We do not +know the name of Mrs. Noah, and I believe not the +name of a solitary woman is given from the creation +of Eve--with the exception of two of Lamech's +wives--until Sarai is mentioned as being the wife +of Abram. + +If you wish really to know the Bible estimation of +woman, turn to the fourth and fifth verses of the +twelfth chapter of Leviticus, in which a woman, for +the crime of having borne a son, is unfit to touch a +hallowed thing, or to come in the holy sanctuary for +thirty-three days; but if a woman was the mother +of a girl, then she became totally unfit to enter the +sanctuary, or pollute with her touch a hallowed thing, + +113 + +for sixty-six days. The pollution was twice as great +when she had borne a daughter. + +It is a little difficult to see why it is a greater crime +to give birth to a daughter than to a son. Surely, a +law like that did not tend to the elevation of woman. +You will also find in the same chapter that a woman +had to offer a pigeon, or a turtle-dove, as a sin offer- +ing, in order to expiate the crime of having become a +mother. By the Levitical law, a mother was unclean. +The priest had to make an atonement for her. + +If there is, beneath the stars, a figure of complete +and perfect purity, it is a mother holding in her arms +her child. The laws respecting women, given by +commandment of Jehovah to the Jews, were born of +barbarism, and in this day and age should be re- +garded only with detestation and contempt. The +twentieth and twenty-first verses of the nineteenth +chapter of Leviticus show that the same punishment +was not meted to men and women guilty of the +same crime. + +The real explanation of what we find in the Old +Testament degrading to woman, lies in the fact, that +the overflow of Love's mysterious Nile--the sacred +source of life--was, by its savage authors, deemed +unclean. + +114 + +_Question_. But what have you to say about the +women of the Bible, mentioned by Mr. Talmage, +and held up as examples for all time of all that is +sweet and womanly? + +_Answer_. I believe that Esther is his principal +heroine. Let us see who she was. + +According to the book of Esther, Ahasuerus who +was king of Persia, or some such place, ordered +Vashti his queen to show herself to the people +and the princes, because she was "exceedingly fair +"to look upon." For some reason--modesty per- +haps--she refused to appear. And thereupon the +king "sent letters into all his provinces and to every +"people after their language, that every man should +"bear rule in his own house;" it being feared that +if it should become public that Vashti had disobeyed, +all other wives might follow her example. The king +also, for the purpose of impressing upon all women +the necessity of obeying their husbands, issued a +decree that "Vashti should come no more before +"him," and that he would "give her royal estate +"unto another." This was done that "all the +"wives should give to their husbands honor, both to +"great and small." + +After this, "the king appointed officers in all the + +115 + +"provinces of his kingdom that they might gather +"together all the fair young virgins," and bring +them to his palace, put them in the custody of +his chamberlain, and have them thoroughly washed. +Then the king was to look over the lot and take +each day the one that pleased him best until he found +the one to put in the place of Vashti. A fellow by +the name of Mordecai, living in that part of the +country, hearing of the opportunity to sell a girl, +brought Esther, his uncle's daughter,--she being an +orphan, and very beautiful--to see whether she +might not be the lucky one. + +The remainder of the second chapter of this +book, I do not care to repeat. It is sufficient to say +that Esther at last was chosen. + +The king at this time did not know that Esther +was a Jewess. Mordecai her kinsman, however, +discovered a plot to assassinate the king, and Esther +told the king, and the two plotting gentlemen were +hanged on a tree. + +After a while, a man by the name of Haman was +made Secretary of State, and everybody coming in +his presence bowed except Mordecai. Mordecai was +probably depending on the influence of Esther. +Haman finally became so vexed, that he made up + +116 + +his mind to have all the Jews in the kingdom +destroyed. (The number of Jews at that time +in Persia must have been immense.) Haman there- +upon requested the king to have an order issued to +destroy all the Jews, and in consideration of the +order, proposed to pay ten thousand talents of silver. +And thereupon, letters were written to the governors +of the various provinces, sealed with the king's ring, +sent by post in all directions, with instructions to kill +all the Jews, both young and old--little children and +women,--in one day. (One would think that the +king copied this order from another part of the Old +Testament, or had found an original by Jehovah.) The +people immediately made preparations for the killing. +Mordecai clothed himself with sack-cloth, and Esther +called upon one of the king's chamberlains, and she +finally got the history of the affair, as well as a copy +of the writing, and thereupon made up her mind to +go in and ask the king to save her people. + +At that time, Bismarck's idea of government being +in full force, any one entering the king's presence with- +out an invitation, was liable to be put to death. And +in case any one did go in to see the king, if the king +failed to hold out his golden sceptre, his life was not +spared. Notwithstanding this order, Esther put on + +117 + +her best clothes, and stood in the inner court of the +king's house, while the king sat on his royal throne. +When the king saw her standing in the court, he +held out his sceptre, and Esther drew near, and he +asked her what she wished; and thereupon she +asked that the king and Haman might take dinner +with her that day, and it was done. While they were +feasting, the king again asked Esther what she +wanted; and her second request was, that they +would come and dine with her once more. When +Haman left the palace that day, he saw Mordecai +again at the gate, standing as stiffly as usual, and it +filled Haman with indignation. So Haman, taking +the advice of his wife, made a gallows fifty cubits +high, for the special benefit of Mordecai. The next +day, when Haman went to see the king, the king, +having the night before refreshed his memory in +respect to the service done him by Mordecai, asked +Haman what ought to be done for the man whom +the king wished to honor. Haman, supposing of +course that the king referred to him, said that royal +purple ought to be brought forth, such as the king +wore, and the horse that the king rode on, and the +crown-royal should be set on the man's head;--that +one of the most noble princes should lead the horse, + +118 + +and as he went through the streets, proclaim: "Thus +"shall it be done to the man whom the king de- +"lighteth to honor." + +Thereupon the king told Haman that Mordecai +was the man that the king wished to honor. And +Haman was forced to lead this horse, backed by +Mordecai, through the streets, shouting: "This shall +"be done to the man whom the king delighteth to +"honor." Immediately afterward, he went to the +banquet that Esther had prepared, and the king +again asked Esther her petition. She then asked +for the salvation of her people; stating at the same +time, that if her people had been sold into slavery, +she would have held her tongue; but since they +were about to be killed, she could not keep silent. +The king asked her who had done this thing; and +Esther replied that it was the wicked Haman. + +Thereupon one of the chamberlains, remembering +the gallows that had been made for Mordecai, men- +tioned it, and the king immediately ordered that +Haman be hanged thereon; which was done. And +Mordecai immediately became Secretary of State. +The order against the Jews was then rescinded; and +Ahasuerus, willing to do anything that Esther de- +sired, hanged all of Haman's folks. He not only did + +119 + +this, but he immediately issued an order to all the +Jews allowing them to kill the other folks. And the +Jews got together throughout one hundred and +twenty-seven provinces, "and such was their power, +"that no man could stand against them; and there- +"upon the Jews smote all their enemies with the +"stroke of the sword, and with slaughter and de- +"struction, and did whatever they pleased to those +"who hated them." And in the palace of the king, +the Jews slew and destroyed five hundred men, besides +ten sons of Haman; and in the rest of the provinces, +they slew seventy-five thousand people. And after +this work of slaughter, the Jews had a day of glad- +ness and feasting. + +One can see from this, what a beautiful Bible +character Esther was--how filled with all that is +womanly, gentle, kind and tender! + +This story is one of the most unreasonable, as well +as one of the most heartless and revengeful, in the +whole Bible. Ahasuerus was a monster, and Esther +equally infamous; and yet, this woman is held up for +the admiration of mankind by a Brooklyn pastor. +There is this peculiarity about the book of Esther: +the name of God is not mentioned in it, and the +deity is not referred to, directly or indirectly;--yet + +120 + +it is claimed to be an inspired book. If Jehovah +wrote it, he certainly cannot be charged with +egotism. + +I most cheerfully admit that the book of Ruth is +quite a pleasant story, and the affection of Ruth for +her mother-in-law exceedingly touching, but I am of +opinion that Ruth did many things that would be re- +garded as somewhat indiscreet, even in the city of +Brooklyn. + +All I can find about Hannah is, that she made a +little coat for her boy Samuel, and brought it to him +from year to year. Where he got his vest and +pantaloons we are not told. But this fact seems +hardly enough to make her name immortal. + +So also Mr. Talmage refers us to the wonderful +woman Abigail. The story about Abigail, told in +plain English, is this: David sent some of his fol- +lowers to Nabal, Abigail's husband, and demanded +food. Nabal, who knew nothing about David, and +cared less, refused. Abigail heard about it, and took +food to David and his servants. She was very much +struck, apparently, with David and David with her. +A few days afterward Nabal died--supposed to have +been killed by the Lord--but probably poisoned; +and thereupon David took Abigail to wife. The + +121 + +whole matter should have been investigated by the +grand jury. + +We are also referred to Dorcas, who no doubt was a +good woman--made clothes for the poor and gave +alms, as millions have done since then. It seems +that this woman died. Peter was sent for, and there- +upon raised her from the dead, and she is never men- +tioned any more. Is it not a little strange that a +woman who had been actually raised from the dead, +should have so completely passed out of the memory +of her time, that when she died the second time, she +was entirely unnoticed? + +Is it not astonishing that so little is in the New +Testament concerning the mother of Christ? My +own opinion is, that she was an excellent woman, and +the wife of Joseph; and that Joseph was the actual +father of Christ. I think there can be no reasonable +doubt that such was the opinion of the authors of the +original gospels. Upon any other hypothesis, it is +impossible to account for their having given the +genealogy of Joseph to prove that Christ was of the +blood of David. The idea that he was the Son of +God, or in any way miraculously produced, was an +afterthought, and is hardly entitled now to serious +consideration. The gospels were written so long after + +122 + +the death of Christ, that very little was known of him, +and substantially nothing of his parents. How is it +that not one word is said about the death of Mary-- +not one word about the death of Joseph? How did +it happen that Christ did not visit his mother after his +resurrection? The first time he speaks to his mother +is when he was twelve years old. His mother having +told him that she and his father had been seeking +him, he replied: "How is it that ye sought me: wist +"ye not that I must be about my Father s business?" + +The second time was at the marriage feast in Cana, +when he said to her: "Woman, what have I to do +"with thee?" And the third time was at the cross, +when "Jesus, seeing his mother standing by the +"disciple whom he loved, said to her: Woman, be- +"hold thy son;" and to the disciple: "Behold thy +"mother." And this is all. + +The best thing about the Catholic Church is +the deification of Mary,--and yet this is denounced +by Protestantism as idolatry. There is something +in the human heart that prompts man to tell his faults +more freely to the mother than to the father. The +cruelty of Jehovah is softened by the mercy of +Mary. + +Is it not strange that none of the disciples of Christ + +123 + +said anything about their parents,--that we know +absolutely nothing of them? Is there any evidence +that they showed any particular respect even for the +mother of Christ? + +Mary Magdalen is, in many respects, the tenderest +and most loving character in the New Testament. +According to the account, her love for Christ knew +no abatement,--no change--true even in the hopeless +shadow of the cross. Neither did it die with his +death. She waited at the sepulchre; she hasted in +the early morning to his tomb, and yet the only +comfort Christ gave to this true and loving soul lies +in these strangely cold and heartless words: "Touch +"me not." + +There is nothing tending to show that the women +spoken of in the Bible were superior to the ones we +know. There are to-day millions of women making +coats for their sons,--hundreds of thousands of +women, true not simply to innocent people, falsely +accused, but to criminals. Many a loving heart is +as true to the gallows as Mary was to the cross. +There are hundreds of thousands of women accept- +ing poverty and want and dishonor, for the love they +bear unworthy men; hundreds and thousands, hun- +dreds and thousands, working day and night, with + +124 + +strained eyes and tired hands, for husbands and +children,--clothed in rags, housed in huts and hovels, +hoping day after day for the angel of death. There are +thousands of women in Christian England, working in +iron, laboring in the fields and toiling in mines. There +are hundreds and thousands in Europe, everywhere, +doing the work of men--deformed by toil, and who +would become simply wild and ferocious beasts, +except for the love they bear for home and child. + +You need not go back four thousand years for +heroines. The world is filled with them to-day. +They do not belong to any nation, nor to any religion, +nor exclusively to any race. Wherever woman is +found, they are found. + +There is no description of any women in the Bible +that equal thousands and thousands of women known +to-day. The women mentioned by Mr. Talmage fall +almost infinitely below, not simply those in real life, but +the creations of the imagination found in the world of +fiction. They will not compare with the women born +of Shakespeare's brain. You will find none like +Isabella, in whose spotless life, love and reason +blended into perfect truth; nor Juliet, within whose +heart passion and purity met, like white and red within +the bosom of a rose; nor Cordelia, who chose to + +125 + +suffer loss rather than show her wealth of love with +those who gilded dross with golden words in hope +of gain; nor Miranda, who told her love as freely +as a flower gives its bosom to the kisses of the sun; +nor Imogene, who asked: "What is it to be false?" +nor Hermione, who bore with perfect faith and hope +the cross of shame, and who at last forgave with all +her heart; nor Desdemona, her innocence so perfect +and her love so pure, that she was incapable of sus- +pecting that another could suspect, and sought with +dying words to hide her lover's crime. + +If we wish to find what the Bible thinks of +woman, all that is necessary to do is to read it. +We will find that everywhere she is spoken of +simply as property,--as belonging absolutely to the +man. We will find that whenever a man got tired +of his wife, all he had to do was to give her a writing +of divorcement, and that then the mother of his +children became a houseless and a homeless wanderer. +We will find that men were allowed to have as +many wives as they could get, either by courtship, +purchase, or conquest. The Jewish people in the +olden time were in many respects like their barbarian +neighbors. + +If we read the New Testament, we will find in the + +126 + +epistle of Paul to Timothy, the following gallant +passages: + +"Let the woman learn in silence, with all +"subjection." + +"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp +"authority over the man, but to be in silence." + +And for these kind, gentle and civilized remarks, +the apostle Paul gives the following reasons: + +"For Adam was first formed, then Eve." + +"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman +"being deceived was in the transgression." + +Certainly women ought to feel under great obli- +gation to the apostle Paul. + +In the fifth chapter of the same epistle, Paul, +advising Timothy as to what kind of people he +should admit into his society or church, uses the +following language: + +"Let not a widow be taken into the number under +"threescore years old, having been the wife of one +"man." + +"But the younger widows refuse, for when they +"have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will +"marry." + +This same Paul did not seem to think polygamy +wrong, except in a bishop. He tells Timothy that: + +127 + +"A bishop must be blameless, the husband of one +"wife." + +He also lays down the rule that a deacon should be +the husband of one wife, leaving us to infer that the +other members might have as many as they could get. + +In the second epistle to Timothy, Paul speaks of +"grandmother Lois," who was referred to in such +extravagant language by Mr. Talmage, and nothing +is said touching her character in the least. All her +virtues live in the imagination, and in the imagina- +tion alone. + +Paul, also, in his epistle to the Ephesians, says: + +"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own hus- +"bands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the +"head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the +"church." + +"Therefore, as the church is subject unto Christ, +"so let the wives be to their own husbands, in +"everything." + +You will find, too, that in the seventh chapter of +First Corinthians, Paul laments that all men are not +bachelors like himself, and in the second verse of +that chapter he gives the only reason for which he +was willing that men and women should marry. He +advised all the unmarried, and all widows, to remain + +128 + +as he was. In the ninth verse of this same chapter +is a slander too vulgar for repetition,--an estimate +of woman and of woman's love so low and vile, that +every woman should hold the inspired author in +infinite abhorrence. + +Paul sums up the whole matter, however, by telling +those who have wives or husbands, to stay with +them--as necessary evils only to be tolerated--but +sincerely regrets that anybody was ever married; +and finally says that: + +"They that have wives should be as though they +"had none;" because, in his opinion: + +"He that is unmarried careth for the things that +"belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord; +"but he that is married careth for the things that are +"of the world, how he may please his wife." + +"There is this difference also," he tells us, "be- +"tween a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman +"careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be +"holy both in body and in spirit; but she that is +"married careth for the things of the world, how she +" may please her husband." + +Of course, it is contended that these things have +tended to the elevation of woman. + +The idea that it is better to love the Lord than to + +129 + +love your wife, or your husband, is infinitely absurd. +Nobody ever did love the Lord,--nobody can--until +he becomes acquainted with him. + +Saint Paul also tells us that "Man is the image +"and glory of God; but woman is the glory of +"man;" and for the purpose of sustaining this posi- +tion, says: + +"For the man is not of the woman, but the woman +"of the man; neither was the man created for the +"woman, but the woman for the man." + +Of course, we can all see that man could have +gotten along well enough without woman, but woman, +by no possibility, could have gotten along without +man. And yet, this is called "inspired;" and this +apostle Paul is supposed to have known more than +all the people now upon the earth. No wonder Paul +at last was constrained to say: "We are fools for +"Christ's sake." + +_Question_. How do you account for the present +condition of woman in what is known as "the civilized +"world," unless the Bible has bettered her condition? + +_Answer_. We must remember that thousands of +things enter into the problem of civilization. Soil, +climate, and geographical position, united with count- + +130 + +less other influences, have resulted in the civilization +of our time. If we want to find what the influence of +the Bible has been, we must ascertain the condition +of Europe when the Bible was considered as abso- +lutely true, and when it wielded its greatest influence. + +Christianity as a form of religion had actual posses- +sion of Europe during the Middle Ages. At that +time, it exerted its greatest power. Then it had the +opportunity of breaking the shackles from the limbs +of woman. Christianity found the Roman matron a +free woman. Polygamy was never known in Rome; +and although divorces were allowed by law, the +Roman state had been founded for more than five +hundred years before either a husband or a wife +asked for a divorce. From the foundation of Chris- +tianity,--I mean from the time it became the force in +the Roman state,--woman, as such, went down in +the scale of civilization. The sceptre was taken from +her hands, and she became once more the slave and +serf of man. The men also were made slaves, and +woman has regained her liberty by the same means +that man has regained his,--by wresting authority +from the hands of the church. While the church had +power, the wife and mother was not considered as +good as the begging nun; the husband and father +was far below the vermin-covered monk; homes +were of no value compared with the cathedral; for +God had to have a house, no matter how many of +his children were wanderers. During all the years in +which woman has struggled for equal liberty with +man, she has been met with the Bible doctrine that +she is the inferior of the man; that Adam was made +first, and Eve afterwards; that man was not made for +woman, but that woman was made for man. + +I find that in this day and generation, the meanest +men have the lowest estimate of woman; that the +greater the man is, the grander he is, the more he +thinks of mother, wife and daughter. I also find that +just in the proportion that he has lost confidence in the +polygamy of Jehovah and in the advice and philosophy +of Saint Paul, he believes in the rights and liberties of +woman. As a matter of fact, men have risen from a +perusal of the Bible, and murdered their wives. They +have risen from reading its pages, and inflicted cruel +and even mortal blows upon their children. Men +have risen from reading the Bible and torn the flesh +of others with red-hot pincers. They have laid +down the sacred volume long enough to pour molten +lead into the ears of others. They have stopped +reading the sacred Scriptures for a sufficient time to + +132 + +incarcerate their fellow-men, to load them with chains, +and then they have gone back to their reading, +allowing their victims to die in darkness and despair. +Men have stopped reading the Old Testament long +enough to drive a stake into the ground and collect a +few fagots and burn an honest man. Even ministers +have denied themselves the privilege of reading the +sacred book long enough to tell falsehoods about +their fellow-men. There is no crime that Bible +readers and Bible believers and Bible worshipers and +Bible defenders have not committed. There is no +meanness of which some Bible reader, believer, and +defender, has not been guilty. Bible believers and +Bible defenders have filled the world with calumnies +and slanders. Bible believers and Bible defenders +have not only whipped their wives, but they have +murdered them; they have murdered their children. +I do not say that reading the Bible will necessarily +make men dishonest, but I do say, that reading the +Bible will not prevent their committing crimes. I do +not say that believing the Bible will necessarily make +men commit burglary, but I do say that a belief in the +Bible has caused men to persecute each other, to +imprison each other, and to burn each other. + +Only a little while ago, a British clergyman mur- + +133 + +dered his wife. Only a little while ago, an American +Protestant clergyman whipped his boy to death be- +cause the boy refused to say a prayer. + +The Rev. Mr. Crowley not only believed the Bible, +but was licensed to expound it. He had been +"called" to the ministry, and upon his head had +been laid the holy hands; and yet, he deliberately +starved orphans, and while looking upon their +sunken eyes and hollow cheeks, sung pious hymns +and quoted with great unction: "Suffer little chil- +"dren to come unto me." + +As a matter of fact, in the last twenty years, +more money has been stolen by Christian cashiers, +Christian presidents, Christian directors, Christian +trustees and Christian statesmen, than by all other +convicts in all the penitentiaries in all the Christian +world. + +The assassin of Henry the Fourth was a Bible reader +and a Bible believer. The instigators of the massacre +of St. Bartholomew were believers in your sacred +Scriptures. The men who invested their money in the +slave-trade believed themselves filled with the Holy +Ghost, and read with rapture the Psalms of David and +the Sermon on the Mount. The murderers of Scotch +Presbyterians were believers in Revelation, and the + +134 +Presbyterians, when they murdered others, were also +believers. Nearly every man who expiates a crime +upon the gallows is a believer in the Bible. For a +thousand years, the daggers of assassination and the +swords of war were blest by priests--by the believers +in the sacred Scriptures. The assassin of President +Garfield is a believer in the Bible, a hater of infidelity, +a believer in personal inspiration, and he expects in a +few weeks to join the winged and redeemed in +heaven. + +If a man would follow, to-day, the teachings of the +Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would +follow strictly the teachings of the New, he would be +insane. + + + + +FOURTH INTERVIEW. + + +_Son. There is no devil. + +Mother. I know there is. + +Son. How do you know? + +Mother. Because they make pictures that look just +like him. + +Son. But, mother-- + +Mother. Don't "mother" me! You are trying to +disgrace your parents._ + +_Question_. I want to ask you a few questions about +Mr. Talmage's fourth sermon against you, entitled: +"The Meanness of Infidelity," in which he compares +you to Jehoiakim, who had the temerity to throw +some of the writings of the weeping Jeremiah into +the fire? + +_Answer_. So far as I am concerned, I really re- +gret that a second edition of Jeremiah's roll was +gotten out. It would have been far better for us all, +if it had been left in ashes. There was nothing but +curses and prophecies of evil, in the sacred roll that + +138 + +Jehoiakim burned. The Bible tells us that Jehovah +became exceedingly wroth because of the destruction +of this roll, and pronounced a curse upon Jehoiakim +and upon Palestine. I presume it was on account of +the burning of that roll that the king of Babylon +destroyed the chosen people of God. It was on +account of that sacrilege that the Lord said of +Jehoiakim: "He shall have none to sit upon the +"throne of David; and his dead body shall be cast +"out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the +"frost." Any one can see how much a dead body +would suffer under such circumstances. Imagine an +infinitely wise, good and powerful God taking ven- +geance on the corpse of a barbarian king! What +joy there must have been in heaven as the angels +watched the alternate melting and freezing of the +dead body of Jehoiakim! + +Jeremiah was probably the most accomplished +croaker of all time. Nothing satisfied him. He was +a prophetic pessimist,--an ancient Bourbon. He +was only happy when predicting war, pestilence and +famine. No wonder Jehoiakim despised him, and +hated all he wrote. + +One can easily see the character of Jeremiah from +the following occurrence: When the Babylonians + +139 + +had succeeded in taking Jerusalem, and in sacking +the city, Jeremiah was unfortunately taken prisoner; +but Captain Nebuzaradan came to Jeremiah, and told +him that he would let him go, because he had pro- +phesied against his own country. He was regarded +as a friend by the enemy. + +There was, at that time, as now, the old fight +between the church and the civil power. Whenever +a king failed to do what the priests wanted, they +immediately prophesied overthrow, disaster, and de- +feat. Whenever the kings would hearken to their +voice, and would see to it that the priests had plenty +to eat and drink and wear, then they all declared +that Jehovah would love that king, would let him live +out all his days, and allow his son to reign in his +stead. It was simply the old conflict that is still being +waged, and it will be carried on until universal civil- +ization does away with priestcraft and superstition. + +The priests in the days of Jeremiah were the same +as now. They sought to rule the State. They pre- +tended that, at their request, Jehovah would withhold +or send the rain; that the seasons were within their +power; that they with bitter words could blight the +fields and curse the land with want and death. They +gloried then, as now, in the exhibition of God's wrath. + +140 + +In prosperity, the priests were forgotten. Success +scorned them; Famine flattered them; Health laughed +at them; Pestilence prayed to them; Disaster was +their only friend. + +These old prophets prophesied nothing but evil, +and consequently, when anything bad happened, they +claimed it as a fulfillment, and pointed with pride to +the fact that they had, weeks or months, or years +before, foretold something of that kind. They were +really the originators of the phrase, "I told you so!" + +There was a good old Methodist class-leader that +lived down near a place called Liverpool, on the +Illinois river. In the spring of 1861 the old man, +telling his experience, among other things said, that he +had lived there by the river for more than thirty +years, and he did not believe that a year had passed +that there were not hundreds of people during the +hunting season shooting ducks on Sunday; that he +had told his wife thousands of times that no good +would come of it; that evil would come of it; "And +"now, said the old man, raising his voice with the +importance of the announcement, "war is upon us!" + +_Question_. Do you wish, as Mr. Talmage says, to de- +stroy the Bible--to have all the copies burned to ashes? +What do you wish to have done with the Bible? + +141 + +_Answer_. I want the Bible treated exactly as we +treat other books--preserve the good and throw +away the foolish and the hurtful. I am fighting the +doctrine of inspiration. As long as it is believed that +the Bible is inspired, that book is the master--no +mind is free. With that belief, intellectual liberty is +impossible. With that belief, you can investigate +only at the risk of losing your soul. The Catholics +have a pope. Protestants laugh at them, and yet the +pope is capable of intellectual advancement. In +addition to this, the pope is mortal, and the church +cannot be afflicted with the same idiot forever. The +Protestants have a book for their pope. The book +cannot advance. Year after year, and century after +century, the book remains as ignorant as ever. It is +only made better by those who believe in its inspira- +tion giving better meanings to the words than their +ancestors did. In this way it may be said that the +Bible grows a little better. + +Why should we have a book for a master? That +which otherwise might be a blessing, remains a curse. +If every copy of the Bible were destroyed, all that is +good in that book would be reproduced in a single +day. Leave every copy of the Bible as it is, and +have every human being believe in its inspiration, + +142 + +and intellectual liberty would cease to exist. The +whole race, from that moment, would go back to- +ward the night of intellectual death. + +The Bible would do more harm if more people +really believed it, and acted in accordance with its +teachings. Now and then a Freeman puts the knife +to the heart of his child. Now and then an assassin +relies upon some sacred passage; but, as a rule, few +men believe the Bible to be absolutely true. + +There are about fifteen hundred million people in +the world. There are not two million who have read +the Bible through. There are not two hundred +million who ever saw the Bible. There are not five +hundred million who ever heard that such a book +exists. + +Christianity is claimed to be a religion for all +mankind. It was founded more than eighteen cen- +turies ago; and yet, not one human being in three +has ever heard of it. As a matter of fact, for more +than fourteen centuries and-a-half after the crucifixion +of Christ, this hemisphere was absolutely unknown. +There was not a Christian in the world who knew +there was such a continent as ours, and all the +inhabitants of this, the New World, were deprived +of the gospel for fourteen centuries and-a-half, and + +143 + +knew nothing of its blessings until they were in- +formed by Spanish murderers and marauders. Even +in the United States, Christianity is not keeping pace +with the increase of population. When we take +into consideration that it is aided by the momentum +of eighteen centuries, is it not wonderful that it is not +to-day holding its own? The reason of this is, that +we are beginning to understand the Scriptures. We +are beginningto see, and to see clearly, that they are +simply of human origin, and that the Bible bears +the marks of the barbarians who wrote it. The best +educated among the clergy admit that we know but +little as to the origin of the gospels; that we do not +positively know the author of one of them; that it is +really a matter of doubt as to who wrote the five +books attributed to Moses. They admit now, that +Isaiah was written by more than one person; that +Solomon's Song was not written by that king; that +Job is, in all probability, not a Jewish book; that +Ecclesiastes must have been written by a Freethinker, +and by one who had his doubts about the immortality +of the soul. The best biblical students of the so- +called orthodox world now admit that several stories +were united to make the gospel of Saint Luke; that +Hebrews is a selection from many fragments, and + +144 + +that no human being, not afflicted with delirium +tremens, can understand the book of Revelation. + +I am not the only one engaged in the work of +destruction. Every Protestant who expresses a doubt +as to the genuineness of a passage, is destroying the +Bible. The gentlemen who have endeavored to treat +hell as a question of syntax, and to prove that eternal +punishment depends upon grammar, are helping to +bring the Scriptures into contempt. Hundreds of +years ago, the Catholics told the Protestant world that +it was dangerous to give the Bible to the people. +The Catholics were right; the Protestants were +wrong. To read is to think. To think is to investi- +gate. To investigate is, finally, to deny. That book +should have been read only by priests. Every copy +should have been under the lock and key of bishop, +cardinal and pope. The common people should have +received the Bible from the lips of the ministers. +The world should have been kept in ignorance. In +that way, and in that way only, could the pulpit have +maintained its power. He who teaches a child +the alphabet sows the seeds of heresy. I have lived +to see the schoolhouse in many a village larger than +the church. Every man who finds a fact, is the +enemy of theology. Every man who expresses an + +145 + +honest thought is a soldier in the army of intellectual +liberty. + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage thinks that you laugh too +much,--that you exhibit too much mirth, and that no +one should smile at sacred things? + +_Answer_. The church has always feared ridicule. +The minister despises laughter. He who builds upon +ignorance and awe, fears intelligence and mirth. The +theologians always begin by saying: "Let us be +"solemn." They know that credulity and awe are +twins. They also know that while Reason is the +pilot of the soul, Humor carries the lamp. Whoever +has the sense of humor fully developed, cannot, by +any possibility, be an orthodox theologian. He would +be his own laughing stock. The most absurd stories, +the most laughable miracles, read in a solemn, stately +way, sound to the ears of ignorance and awe like +truth. It has been the object of the church for +eighteen hundred years to prevent laughter. + +A smile is the dawn of a doubt. + +Ministers are always talking about death, and +coffins, and dust, and worms,--the cross in this life, +and the fires of another. They have been the +enemies of human happiness. They hate to hear + +146 + +even the laughter of children. There seems to have +been a bond of sympathy between divinity and +dyspepsia, between theology and indigestion. There +is a certain pious hatred of pleasure, and those who +have been "born again" are expected to despise +"the transitory joys of this fleeting life." In this, +they follow the example of their prophets, of whom +they proudly say: "They never smiled." + +Whoever laughs at a holy falsehood, is called a +"scoffer." Whoever gives vent to his natural feel- +ings is regarded as a "blasphemer," and whoever +examines the Bible as he examines other books, and +relies upon his reason to interpret it, is denounced +as a "reprobate." + +Let us respect the truth, let us laugh at miracles, +and above all, let us be candid with each other. + +'Question. Mr. Talmage charges that you have, in +your lectures, satirized your early home; that you +have described with bitterness the Sundays that were +forced upon you in your youth; and that in various +ways you have denounced your father as a "tyrant," +or a "bigot," or a "fool"? + +_Answer_. I have described the manner in which +Sunday was kept when I was a boy. My father for + +147 + +many years regarded the Sabbath as a sacred day. +We kept Sunday as most other Christians did. I think +that my father made a mistake about that day. I +have no doubt he was honest about it, and really +believed that it was pleasing to God for him to keep +the Sabbath as he did. + +I think that Sunday should not be a day of gloom, +of silence and despair, or a day in which to hear that +the chances are largely in favor of your being eternally +damned. That day, in my opinion, should be one of +joy; a day to get acquainted with your wife and +children; a day to visit the woods, or the sea, or the +murmuring stream; a day to gather flowers, to visit +the graves of your dead, to read old poems, old +letters, old books; a day to rekindle the fires of +friendship and love. + +Mr. Talmage says that my father was a Christian, +and he then proceeds to malign his memory. It +seems to me that a living Christian should at least +tell the truth about one who sleeps the silent sleep +of death. + +I have said nothing, in any of my lectures, about +my father, or about my mother, or about any of my +relatives. I have not the egotism to bring them +forward. They have nothing to do with the subject + +148 + +in hand. That my father was mistaken upon the +subject of religion, I have no doubt. He was a good, +a brave and honest man. I loved him living, and +I love him dead. I never said to him an unkind +word, and in my heart there never was of him an +unkind thought. He was grand enough to say to +me, that I had the same right to my opinion that he +had to his. He was great enough to tell me to read +the Bible for myself, to be honest with myself, and if +after reading it I concluded it was not the word of +God, that it was my duty to say so. + +My mother died when I was but a child; and from +that day--the darkest of my life--her memory has +been within my heart a sacred thing, and I have felt, +through all these years, her kisses on my lips. + +I know that my parents--if they are conscious now +--do not wish me to honor them at the expense of +my manhood. I know that neither my father nor my +mother would have me sacrifice upon their graves my +honest thought. I know that I can only please them by +being true to myself, by defending what I believe is +good, by attacking what I believe is bad. Yet this min- +ister of Christ is cruel enough, and malicious enough, +to attack the reputation of the dead. What he says +about my father is utterly and unqualifiedly false. + +149 + +Right here, it may be well enough for me to say, +that long before my father died, he threw aside, as +unworthy of a place in the mind of an intelligent +man, the infamous dogma of eternal fire; that he +regarded with abhorrence many passages in the Old +Testament; that he believed man, in another world, +would have the eternal opportunity of doing right, +and that the pity of God would last as long as the +suffering of man. My father and my mother were +good, in spite of the Old Testament. They were mer- +ciful, in spite of the one frightful doctrine in the New. +They did not need the religion of Presbyterianism. +Presbyterianism never made a human being better. +If there is anything that will freeze the generous +current of the soul, it is Calvinism. If there is any +creed that will destroy charity, that will keep the +tears of pity from the cheeks of men and women, it +is Presbyterianism. If there is any doctrine calcu- +lated to make man bigoted, unsympathetic, and +cruel, it is the doctrine of predestination. Neither +my father, nor my mother, believed in the damnation +of babes, nor in the inspiration of John Calvin. + +Mr. Talmage professes to be a Christian. What +effect has the religion of Jesus Christ had upon him? +Is he the product--the natural product--of Chris- + +150 + +tianity? Does the real Christian violate the sanctity +of death? Does the real Christian malign the +memory of the dead? Does the good Christian +defame unanswering and unresisting dust? + +But why should I expect kindness from a Chris- +tian? Can a minister be expected to treat with +fairness a man whom his God intends to damn? If +a good God is going to burn an infidel forever, in +the world to come, surely a Christian should have +the right to persecute him a little here. + +What right has a Christian to ask anybody to love +his father, or mother, or wife, or child? According +to the gospels, Christ offered a reward to any one +who would desert his father or his mother. He +offered a premium to gentlemen for leaving their +wives, and tried to bribe people to abandon their +little children. He offered them happiness in this +world, and a hundred fold in the next, if they would +turn a deaf ear to the supplications of a father, the +beseeching cry of a wife, and would leave the out- +stretched arms of babes. They were not even +allowed to bury their fathers and their mothers. At +that time they were expected to prefer Jesus to their +wives and children. And now an orthodox minister +says that a man ought not to express his honest + +151 + +thoughts, because they do not happen to be in accord +with the belief of his father or mother. + +Suppose Mr. Talmage should read the Bible care- +fully and without fear, and should come to the honest +conclusion that it is not inspired, what course would +he pursue for the purpose of honoring his parents? +Would he say, "I cannot tell the truth, I must lie, +"for the purpose of shedding a halo of glory around +"the memory of my mother"? Would he say: "Of +"course, my father and mother would a thousand +"times rather have their son a hypocritical Christian +"than an honest, manly unbeliever"? This might +please Mr. Talmage, and accord perfectly with his +view, but I prefer to say, that my father wished me to +be an honest man. If he is in "heaven" now, I am +sure that he would rather hear me attack the +"inspired" word of God, honestly and bravely, than +to hear me, in the solemn accents of hypocrisy, defend +what I believe to be untrue. + +I may be mistaken in the estimate angels put upon +human beings. It may be that God likes a pretended +follower better than an honest, outspoken man--one +who is an infidel simply because he does not under- +stand this God. But it seems to me, in my unregenerate +condition, touched and tainted as I am by original sin, + +152 + +that a God of infinite power and wisdom ought to be +able to make a man brave enough to have an opinion +of his own. I cannot conceive of God taking any +particular pride in any hypocrite he has ever made. +Whatever he may say through his ministers, or +whatever the angels may repeat, a manly devil +stands higher in my estimation than an unmanly +angel. I do not mean by this, that there are any +unmanly angels, neither do I pretend that there +are any manly devils. My meaning is this: If I have +a Creator, I can only honor him by being true to +myself, and kind and just to my fellow-men. If I wish +to shed lustre upon my father and mother, I can +only do so by being absolutely true to myself. +Never will I lay the wreath of hypocrisy upon the +tombs of those I love. + +Mr. Talmage takes the ground that we must defend +the religious belief of our parents. He seems to +forget that all parents do not believe exactly alike, +and that everybody has at least two parents. Now, +suppose that the father is an infidel, and the mother +a Christian, what must the son do? Must he "drive +"the ploughshare of contempt through the grave of +"the father," for the purpose of honoring the mother; +or must he drive the ploughshare through the grave + +153 + +of the mother to honor the father; or must he com- +promise, and talk one way and believe another? If +Mr. Talmage's doctrine is correct, only persons who +have no knowledge of their parents can have liberty +of opinion. Foundlings would be the only free +people. I do not suppose that Mr. Talmage would +go so far as to say that a child would be bound by +the religion of the person upon whose door-steps he +was found. If he does not, then over every foundling +hospital should be these words: "Home of Intel- +"lectual Liberty." + +_Question_. Do you suppose that we will care +nothing in the next world for those we loved in this? +Is it worse in a man than in an angel, to care nothing +for his mother? + +_Answer_. According to Mr. Talmage, a man can +be perfectly happy in heaven, with his mother in hell. +He will be so entranced with the society of Christ, +that he will not even inquire what has become of his +wife. The Holy Ghost will keep him in such a state +of happy wonder, of ecstatic joy, that the names, +even, of his children will never invade his memory. +It may be that I am lacking in filial affection, but +I would much rather be in hell, with my parents + +154 + +in heaven, than be in heaven with my parents in hell. +I think a thousand times more of my parents than I +do of Christ. They knew me, they worked for me, +they loved me, and I can imagine no heaven, no +state of perfect bliss for me, in which they have no +share. If God hates me, because I love them, +I cannot love him. + +I cannot truthfully say that I look forward with any +great degree of joy, to meeting with Haggai and +Habakkuk; with Jeremiah, Nehemiah, Obadiah, +Zechariah or Zephaniah; with Ezekiel, Micah, or +Malachi; or even with Jonah. From what little +I have read of their writings, I have not formed a +very high opinion of the social qualities of these +gentlemen. + +I want to meet the persons I have known; and if +there is another life, I want to meet the really and +the truly great--men who have been broad enough to +be tender, and great enough to be kind. + +Because I differ with my parents, because I am +convinced that my father was wrong in some of +his religious opinions, Mr. Talmage insists that I dis- +grace my parents. How did the Christian religion +commence? Did not the first disciples advocate +theories that their parents denied? Were they + +155 + +not false,--in his sense of the word,--to their +fathers and mothers? How could there have been +any progress in this world, if children had not +gone beyond their parents? Do you consider that +the inventor of a steel plow cast a slur upon his +father who scratched the ground with a wooden +one? I do not consider that an invention by the +son is a slander upon the father; I regard each +invention simply as an improvement; and every +father should be exceedingly proud of an ingenious +son. If Mr. Talmage has a son, it will be impossible +for him to honor his father except by differing with +him. + +It is very strange that Mr. Talmage, a believer in +Christ, should object to any man for not loving his +mother and his father, when his Master, according +to the gospel of Saint Luke, says: "If any man +"come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, +"and wife, and children, and brethren, and sis- +"ters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my +"disciple." + +According to this, I have to make my choice be- +tween my wife, my children, and Jesus Christ. I have +concluded to stand by my folks--both in this world, +and in "the world to come." + +156 + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage asks you whether, in your +judgment, the Bible was a good, or an evil, to your +parents? + +_Answer_. I think it was an evil. The worst thing +about my father was his religion. He would have +been far happier, in my judgment, without it. I +think I get more real joy out of life than he did. +He was a man of a very great and tender heart. He +was continually thinking--for many years of his +life--of the thousands and thousands going down to +eternal fire. That doctrine filled his days with +gloom, and his eyes with tears. I think that my +father and mother would have been far happier had +they believed as I do. How any one can get any +joy out of the Christian religion is past my compre- +hension. If that religion is true, hundreds of mil- +lions are now in hell, and thousands of millions yet +unborn will be. How such a fact can form any part +of the "glad tidings of great joy," is amazing to me. +It is impossible for me to love a being who would +create countless millions for eternal pain. It is +impossible for me to worship the God of the Bible, +or the God of Calvin, or the God of the Westminster +Catechism. + +157 + +_Question_. I see that Mr. Talmage challenges you +to read the fourteenth chapter of Saint John. Are +you willing to accept the challenge; or have you +ever read that chapter? + +_Answer_. I do not claim to be very courageous, +but I have read that chapter, and am very glad that +Mr. Talmage has called attention to it. According +to the gospels, Christ did many miracles. He healed +the sick, gave sight to the blind, made the lame +walk, and raised the dead. In the fourteenth chapter +of Saint John, twelfth verse, I find the following: + +"Verily, verily, I say unto you: He that believeth +"on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and +"greater works than these shall he do, because I go +"unto my Father." + +I am willing to accept that as a true test of a +believer. If Mr. Talmage really believes in Jesus +Christ, he ought to be able to do at least as great +miracles as Christ is said to have done. Will Mr. +Talmage have the kindness to read the fourteenth +chapter of John, and then give me some proof, in +accordance with that chapter, that he is a believer in +Jesus Christ? Will he have the kindness to perform +a miracle?--for instance, produce a "local flood," +make a worm to smite a gourd, or "prepare a fish"? + +158 + +Can he do anything of that nature? Can he even +cause a "vehement east wind"? What evidence, +according to the Bible, can Mr. Talmage give of his +belief? How does he prove that he is a Christian? +By hating infidels and maligning Christians? Let +Mr. Talmage furnish the evidence, according to the +fourteenth chapter of Saint John, or forever after +hold his peace. + +He has my thanks for calling my attention to the +fourteenth chapter of Saint John. + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage charges that you are at- +tempting to destroy the "chief solace of the world," +without offering any substitute. How do you answer +this? + +_Answer_. If he calls Christianity the "chief solace +"of the world," and if by Christianity he means that all +who do not believe in the inspiration of the Scrip- +tures, and have no faith in Jesus Christ, are to be +eternally damned, then I admit that I am doing the +best I can to take that "solace" from the human +heart. I do not believe that the Bible, when prop- +erly understood, is, or ever has been, a comfort to +any human being. Surely, no good man can be +comforted by reading a book in which he finds that + +159 + +a large majority of mankind have been sentenced to +eternal fire. In the doctrine of total depravity there +is no "solace." In the doctrine of "election" there can +be no joy until the returns are in, and a majority +found for you. + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage says that you are taking +away the world's medicines, and in place of anaes- +thetics, in place of laudanum drops, you read an +essay to the man in pain, on the absurdities of mor- +phine and nervines in general. + +_Answer_. It is exactly the other way. I say, let +us depend upon morphine, not upon prayer. Do +not send for the minister--take a little laudanum. +Do not read your Bible,--chloroform is better. Do +not waste your time listening to meaningless ser- +mons, but take real, genuine soporifics. + +I regard the discoverer of ether as a benefactor. +I look upon every great surgeon as a blessing to +mankind. I regard one doctor, skilled in his profes- +sion, of more importance to the world than all the +orthodox ministers. + +Mr. Talmage should remember that for hundreds +of years, the church fought, with all its power, the +science of medicine. Priests used to cure diseases + +160 + +by selling little pieces of paper covered with cabalistic +marks. They filled their treasuries by the sale of +holy water. They healed the sick by relics--the teeth +and ribs of saints, the finger-nails of departed wor- +thies, and the hair of glorified virgins. Infidelity +said: "Send for the doctor." Theology said: "Stick +"to the priest." Infidelity,--that is to say, science,-- +said: "Vaccinate him." The priest said: "Pray;-- +"I will sell you a charm." The doctor was regarded +as a man who was endeavoring to take from God his +means of punishment. He was supposed to spike +the artillery of Jehovah, to wet the powder of the +Almighty, and to steal the flint from the musket of +heavenly retribution. + +Infidelity has never relied upon essays, it has +never relied upon words, it has never relied upon +prayers, it has never relied upon angels or gods; it +has relied upon the honest efforts of men and women. +It has relied upon investigation, observation, experi- +ence, and above all, upon human reason. + +We, in America, know how much prayers are +worth. We have lately seen millions of people upon +their knees. What was the result? + +In the olden times, when a plague made its ap- +pearance, the people fell upon their knees and died. + +161 + +When pestilence came, they rushed to their ca- +thedrals, they implored their priests--and died. God +had no pity upon his ignorant children. At last, +Science came to the rescue. Science,--not in the +attitude of prayer, with closed eyes, but in the atti- +tude of investigation, with open eyes,--looked for and +discovered some of the laws of health. Science +found that cleanliness was far better than godliness. It +said: Do not spend your time in praying;--clean your +houses, clean your streets, clean yourselves. This pest- +ilence is not a punishment. Health is not simply a favor +of the gods. Health depends upon conditions, and +when the conditions are violated, disease is inevitable, +and no God can save you. Health depends upon +your surroundings, and when these are favorable, +the roses are in your cheeks. + +We find in the Old Testament that God gave +to Moses a thousand directions for ascertaining +the presence of leprosy. Yet it never occurred +to this God to tell Moses how to cure the disease. +Within the lids of the Old Testament, we have no +information upon a subject of such vital importance +to mankind. + +It may, however, be claimed by Mr. Talmage, that +this statement is a little too broad, and I will therefore + +162 + +give one recipe that I find in the fourteenth chapter +of Leviticus: + +"Then shall the priest command to take for him +" that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and +"cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop; and the priest +"shall command that one of the birds be killed in an +"earthen vessel over running water. As for the +"living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, +"and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them +"and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was +"killed over the running water. And he shall +"sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the +"leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, +"and shall let the living bird loose into the open +"field." + +Prophets were predicting evil--filling the country +with their wails and cries, and yet it never occurred +to them to tell one solitary thing of the slightest +importance to mankind. Why did not these inspired +men tell us how to cure some of the diseases that +have decimated the world? Instead of spending +forty days and forty nights with Moses, telling him +how to build a large tent, and how to cut the gar- +ments of priests, why did God not give him a little +useful information in respect to the laws of health? + +163 + +Mr. Talmage must remember that the church has +invented no anodynes, no anaesthetics, no medicines, +and has affected no cures. The doctors have not +been inspired. All these useful things men have +discovered for themselves, aided by no prophet and +by no divine Savior. Just to the extent that man +has depended upon the other world, he has failed to +make the best of this. Just in the proportion that he +has depended on his own efforts, he has advanced. +The church has always said: + +"Consider the lilies of the field; they toil not, +"neither do they spin." "Take no thought for the +"morrow." Whereas, the real common sense of this +world has said: "No matter whether lilies toil and +spin, or not, if you would succeed, you must work; +you must take thought for the morrow, you must +look beyond the present day, you must provide for +your wife and your children." + +What can I be expected to give as a substitute for +perdition? It is enough to show that it does not +exist. What does a man want in place of a disease? +Health. And what is better calculated to increase +the happiness of mankind than to know that the +doctrine of eternal pain is infinitely and absurdly +false? + +164 + +Take theology from the world, and natural Love +remains, Science is still here, Music will not be lost, +the page of History will still be open, the walls of +the world will still be adorned with Art, and the +niches rich with Sculpture. + +Take theology from the world, and we all shall +have a common hope,--and the fear of hell will be +removed from every human heart. + +Take theology from the world, and millions of +men will be compelled to earn an honest living. +Impudence will not tax credulity. The vampire of +hypocrisy will not suck the blood of honest toil. + +Take theology from the world, and the churches +can be schools, and the cathedrals universities. + +Take theology from the world, and the money +wasted on superstition will do away with want. + +Take theology from the world, and every brain +will find itself without a chain. + +There is a vast difference between what is called +infidelity and theology. + +Infidelity is honest. When it reaches the confines +of reason, it says: "I know no further." + +Infidelity does not palm its guess upon an ignorant +world as a demonstration. + +165 + +Infidelity proves nothing by slander--establishes +nothing by abuse. + +Infidelity has nothing to hide. It has no "holy +"of holies," except the abode of truth. It has no +curtain that the hand of investigation has not the +right to draw aside. It lives in the cloudless light, +in the very noon, of human eyes. + +Infidelity has no bible to be blasphemed. It does +not cringe before an angry God. + +Infidelity says to every man: Investigate for +yourself. There is no punishment for unbelief. + +Infidelity asks no protection from legislatures. It +wants no man fined because he contradicts its doc- +trines. + +Infidelity relies simply upon evidence--not evi- +dence of the dead, but of the living. + +Infidelity has no infallible pope. It relies only +upon infallible fact. It has no priest except the +interpreter of Nature. The universe is its church. +Its bible is everything that is true. It implores every +man to verify every word for himself, and it implores +him to say, if he does not believe it, that he does +not. + +Infidelity does not fear contradiction. It is not +afraid of being laughed at. It invites the scrutiny + +166 + +of all doubters, of all unbelievers. It does not rely +upon awe, but upon reason. It says to the whole +world: It is dangerous not to think. It is dan- +gerous not to be honest. It is dangerous not to +investigate. It is dangerous not to follow where +your reason leads. + +Infidelity requires every man to judge for himself. +Infidelity preserves the manhood of man. + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage also says that you are +trying to put out the light-houses on the coast of the +next world; that you are "about to leave everybody +"in darkness at the narrows of death"? + +_Answer_. There can be no necessity for these +light-houses, unless the God of Mr. Talmage has +planted rocks and reefs within that unknown sea. +If there is no hell, there is no need of any light- +house on the shores of the next world; and only +those are interested in keeping up these pretended +light-houses who are paid for trimming invisible +wicks and supplying the lamps with allegorical oil. +Mr. Talmage is one of these light-house keepers, +and he knows that if it is ascertained that the coast +is not dangerous, the light-house will be abandoned, +and the keeper will have to find employment else- + +167 + +where. As a matter of fact, every church is a use- +less light-house. It warns us only against breakers +that do not exist. Whenever a mariner tells one of +the keepers that there is no danger, then all the +keepers combine to destroy the reputation of that +mariner. + +No one has returned from the other world to tell +us whether they have light-houses on that shore or +not; or whether the light-houses on this shore--one +of which Mr. Talmage is tending--have ever sent a +cheering ray across the sea. + +Nature has furnished every human being with +a light more or less brilliant, more or less powerful. +That light is Reason; and he who blows that light +out, is in utter darkness. It has been the business of +the church for centuries to extinguish the lamp of the +mind, and to convince the people that their own +reason is utterly unreliable. The church has asked +all men to rely only upon the light of the church. + +Every priest has been not only a light-house but +a guide-board. He has threatened eternal damna- +tion to all who travel on some other road. These +guide-boards have been toll-gates, and the principal +reason why the churches have wanted people to go +their road is, that tolls might be collected. They + +168 + +have regarded unbelievers as the owners of turnpikes +do people who go 'cross lots. The toll-gate man +always tells you that other roads are dangerous-- +filled with quagmires and quicksands. + +Every church is a kind of insurance society, and +proposes, for a small premium, to keep you from +eternal fire. Of course, the man who tells you that +there is to be no fire, interferes with the business, +and is denounced as a malicious meddler and blas- +phemer. The fires of this world sustain the same +relation to insurance companies that the fires of the +next do to the churches. + +Mr. Talmage also insists that I am breaking up the +"life-boats." Why should a ship built by infinite +wisdom, by an infinite shipbuilder, carry life-boats? +The reason we have life-boats now is, that we are +not entirely sure of the ship. We know that man +has not yet found out how to make a ship that can +certainly brave all the dangers of the deep. For this +reason we carry life-boats. But infinite wisdom must +surely build ships that do not need life-boats. Is there +to be a wreck at last? Is God's ship to go down in +storm and darkness? Will it be necessary at last to +forsake his ship and depend upon life-boats? + +For my part, I do not wish to be rescued by a life- + +169 + +boat. When the ship, bearing the whole world, goes +down, I am willing to go down with it--with my +wife, with my children, and with those I have loved. +I will not slip ashore in an orthodox canoe with +somebody else's folks,--I will stay with my own. + +What a picture is presented by the church! A few +in life's last storm are to be saved; and the saved, +when they reach shore, are to look back with joy +upon the great ship going down to the eternal depths! +This is what I call the unutterable meanness of or- +thodox Christianity. + +Mr. Talmage speaks of the "meanness of in- +"fidelity." + +The meanness of orthodox Christianity permits the +husband to be saved, and to be ineffably happy, while +the wife of his bosom is suffering the tortures of hell. + +The meanness of orthodox Christianity tells the +boy that he can go to heaven and have an eternity +of bliss, and that this bliss will not even be clouded +by the fact that the mother who bore him writhes in +eternal pain. + +The meanness of orthodox Christianity allows +a soul to be so captivated with the companionship +of angels as to forget all the old loves and friend- +ships of this world. + +170 + +The meanness of orthodox Christianity, its un- +speakable selfishness, allows a soul in heaven to exult +in the fact of its own salvation, and at the same time +to care nothing for the damnation of all the rest. + +The orthodox Christian says that if he can only +save his little soul, if he can barely squeeze into +heaven, if he can only get past Saint Peter's gate, +if he can by hook or crook climb up the opposite +bank of Jordan, if he can get a harp in his hand, it +matters not to him what becomes of brother or +sister, father or mother, wife or child. He is willing +that they should burn if he can sing. + +Oh, the unutterable meanness of orthodox Chris- +tianity, the infinite heartlessness of the orthodox +angels, who with tearless eyes will forever gaze upon +the agonies of those who were once blood of their +blood and flesh of their flesh! + +Mr. Talmage describes a picture of the scourging +of Christ, painted by Rubens, and he tells us that +he was so appalled by this picture--by the sight of +the naked back, swollen and bleeding--that he could +not have lived had he continued to look; yet this +same man, who could not bear to gaze upon a +painted pain, expects to be perfectly happy in heaven, +while countiess billions of actual--not painted--men, + +171 + +women, and children writhe--not in a pictured flame, +but in the real and quenchless fires of hell. + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage also claims that we are +indebted to Christianity for schools, colleges, univer- +sities, hospitals and asylums? + +_Answer_. This shows that Mr. Talmage has not +read the history of the world. Long before Chris- +tianity had a place, there were vast libraries. There +were thousands of schools before a Christian existed +on the earth. There were hundreds of hospitals +before a line of the New Testament was written. +Hundreds of years before Christ, there were hospitals +in India,--not only for men, women and children, but +even for beasts. There were hospitals in Egypt long +before Moses was born. They knew enough then +to cure insanity with music. They surrounded the +insane with flowers, and treated them with kindness. + +The great libraries at Alexandria were not Chris- +tian. The most intellectual nation of the Middle +Ages was not Christian. While Christians were +imprisoning people for saying that the earth is round, +the Moors in Spain were teaching geography with +globes. They had even calculated the circumference +of the earth by the tides of the Red Sea. + +Where did education come from? For a thousand + +172 + +years Christianity destroyed books and paintings and +statues. For a thousand years Christianity was filled +with hatred toward every effort of the human mind. +We got paper from the Moors. Printing had been +known thousands of years before, in China. A few +manuscripts, containing a portion of the literature of +Greece, a few enriched with the best thoughts of +the Roman world, had been preserved from the +general wreck and ruin wrought by Christian hate. +These became the seeds of intellectual progress. +For a thousand years Christianity controlled Europe. +The Mohammedans were far in advance of the +Christians with hospitals and asylums and institutions +of learning. + +Just in proportion that we have done away with +what is known as orthodox Christianity, humanity +has taken its place. Humanity has built all the asy- +lums, all the hospitals. Humanity, not Christianity, +has done these things. The people of this country +are all willing to be taxed that the insane may be +cared for, that the sick, the helpless, and the desti- +tute may be provided for, not because they are +Christians, but because they are humane; and they +are not humane because they are Christians. + +The colleges of this country have been poisoned by + +173 + +theology, and their usefulness almost destroyed. Just +in proportion that they have gotten from ecclesiastical +control, they have become a good. That college, to- +day, which has the most religion has the least true +learning; and that college which is the nearest free, +does the most good. Colleges that pit Moses against +modern geology, that undertake to overthrow the +Copernican system by appealing to Joshua, have +done, and are doing, very little good in this world. + +Suppose that in the first century Pagans had said +to Christians: Where are your hospitals, where are +your asylums, where are your works of charity, where +are your colleges and universities? + +The Christians undoubtedly would have replied: +We have not been in power. There are but few +of us. We have been persecuted to that degree +that it has been about as much as we could do to +maintain ourselves. + +Reasonable Pagans would have regarded such an +answer as perfectly satisfactory. Yet that question +could have been asked of Christianity after it had +held the reins of power for a thousand years, and +Christians would have been compelled to say: We +have no universities, we have no colleges, we have +no real asylums. + +174 + +The Christian now asks of the atheist: Where +is your asylum, where is your hospital, where is your +university? And the atheist answers: There have +been but few atheists. The world is not yet suffi- +ciently advanced to produce them. For hundreds +and hundreds of years, the minds of men have been +darkened by the superstitions of Christianity. Priests +have thundered against human knowledge, have de- +nounced human reason, and have done all within +their power to prevent the real progress of mankind. + +You must also remember that Christianity has +made more lunatics than it ever provided asylums +for. Christianity has driven more men and women +crazy than all other religions combined. Hundreds +and thousands and millions have lost their reason in +contemplating the monstrous falsehoods of Chris- +tianity. Thousands of mothers, thinking of their +sons in hell--thousands of fathers, believing their +boys and girls in perdition, have lost their reason. + +So, let it be distinctly understood, that Christianity +has made ten lunatics--twenty--one hundred-- +where it has provided an asylum for one. + +Mr. Talmage also speaks of the hospitals. When +we take into consideration the wars that have been +waged on account of religion, the countless thou- + +175 + +sands who have been maimed and wounded, through +all the years, by wars produced by theology--then I +say that Christianity has not built hospitals enough +to take care of her own wounded--not enough to +take care of one in a hundred. Where Christianity +has bound up the wounds of one, it has pierced the +bodies of a hundred others with sword and spear, +with bayonet and ball. Where she has provided +one bed in a hospital, she has laid away a hundred +bodies in bloody graves. + +Of course I do not expect the church to do +anything but beg. Churches produce nothing. They +are like the lilies of the field. "They toil not, neither +"do they spin, yet Solomon in all his glory was not +"arrayed like most of them." + +The churches raise no corn nor wheat. They +simply collect tithes. They carry the alms' dish. +They pass the plate. They take toll. Of course +a mendicant is not expected to produce anything. +He does not support,--he is supported. The church +does not help. She receives, she devours, she +consumes, and she produces only discord. She ex- +changes mistakes for provisions, faith for food, +prayers for pence. The church is a beggar. But we +have this consolation: In this age of the world, this + +176 + +beggar is not on horseback, and even the walking is +not good. + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage says that infidels have +done no good? + +_Answer_. Well, let us see. In the first place, +what is an "infidel"? He is simply a man in advance +of his time. He is an intellectual pioneer. He is +the dawn of a new day. He is a gentleman with an +idea of his own, for which he gave no receipt to the +church. He is a man who has not been branded as +the property of some one else. An "infidel" is one +who has made a declaration of independence. In +other words, he is a man who has had a doubt. To +have a doubt means that you have thought upon +the subject--that you have investigated the question; +and he who investigates any religion will doubt. + +All the advance that has been made in the religious +world has been made by "infidels," by "heretics," +by "skeptics," by doubters,--that is to say, by +thoughtful men. The doubt does not come from the +ignorant members of your congregations. Heresy is +not born of stupidity,--it is not the child of the brain- +less. He who is so afraid of hurting the reputation +of his father and mother that he refuses to advance, + +177 + +is not a "heretic." The "heretic" is not true to +falsehood. Orthodoxy is. He who stands faithfully +by a mistake is "orthodox." He who, discovering +that it is a mistake, has the courage to say so, is an +"infidel." + +An infidel is an intellectual discoverer--one who +finds new isles, new continents, in the vast realm of +thought. The dwellers on the orthodox shore de- +nounce this brave sailor of the seas as a buccaneer. + +And yet we are told that the thinkers of new +thoughts have never been of value to the world. +Voltaire did more for human liberty than all the +orthodox ministers living and dead. He broke a +thousand times more chains than Luther. Luther +simply substituted his chain for that of the Catholics. +Voltaire had none. The Encyclopaedists of France +did more for liberty than all the writers upon theology. +Bruno did more for mankind than millions of "be- +"lievers." Spinoza contributed more to the growth +of the human intellect than all the orthodox theolo- +gians. + +Men have not done good simply because they have +believed this or that doctrine. They have done good +in the intellectual world as they have thought and +secured for others the liberty to think and to ex- + +178 + +press their thoughts. They have done good in the +physical world by teaching their fellows how to +triumph over the obstructions of nature. Every +man who has taught his fellow-man to think, has +been a benefactor. Every one who has supplied his +fellow-men with facts, and insisted upon their right +to think, has been a blessing to his kind. + +Mr. Talmage, in order to show what Christians +have done, points us to Whitefield, Luther, Oberlin, +Judson, Martyn, Bishop Mcllvaine and Hannah +More. I would not for one moment compare George +Whitefield with the inventor of movable type, and +there is no parallel between Frederick Oberlin and +the inventor of paper; not the slightest between +Martin Luther and the discoverer of the New World; +not the least between Adoniram Judson and the in- +ventor of the reaper, nor between Henry Martyn +and the discoverer of photography. Of what use to +the world was Bishop Mcllvaine, compared with +the inventor of needles? Of what use were a +hundred such priests compared with the inventor +of matches, or even of clothes-pins? Suppose that +Hannah More had never lived? about the same +number would read her writings now. It is hardly fair +to compare her with the inventor of the steamship? + +179 + +The progress of the world--its present improved +condition--can be accounted for only by the discov- +eries of genius, only by men who have had the +courage to express their honest thoughts. + +After all, the man who invented the telescope +found out more about heaven than the closed eyes of +prayer had ever discovered. I feel absolutely certain +that the inventor of the steam engine was a greater +benefactor to mankind than the writer of the Presby- +terian creed. I may be mistaken, but I think that +railways have done more to civilize mankind, than any +system of theology. I believe that the printing press +has done more for the world than the pulpit. It is +my opinion that the discoveries of Kepler did a +thousand times more to enlarge the minds of men +than the prophecies of Daniel. I feel under far +greater obligation to Humboldt than to Haggai. +The inventor of the plow did more good than the +maker of the first rosary--because, say what you +will, plowing is better than praying; we can live by +plowing without praying, but we can not live by +praying without plowing. So I put my faith in the +plow. + +As Jehovah has ceased to make garments for his +children,--as he has stopped making coats of skins, + +180 + +I have great respect for the inventors of the spinning- +jenny and the sewing machine. As no more laws +are given from Sinai, I have admiration for the real +statesmen. As miracles have ceased, I rely on +medicine, and on a reasonable compliance with the +conditions of health. + +I have infinite respect for the inventors, the +thinkers, the discoverers, and above all, for the un- +known millions who have, without the hope of fame, +lived and labored for the ones they loved. + + + + +FIFTH INTERVIEW, + +_Parson. You had belter join the church; it is +the safer way. + +Sinner. I can't live up to your doctrines, and you +know it. + +Parson. Well, you can come as near it in the +church as out; and forgiveness + +will be easier if you join us. + +Sinner. What do you mean by that? + +Parson. I will tell you. If you join the church, +and happen to back-slide now and then, Christ will +say to his Father: "That man is a "friend of mine, +and you may charge his account to me."_ + +_Question_. What have you to say about the +fifth sermon of the Rev. Mr. Talmage in reply +to you? + +_Answer_. The text from which he preached is: +"Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" +I am compelled to answer these questions in the +negative. That is one reason why I am an infidel. +I do not believe that anybody can gather grapes of +thorns, or figs of thistles. That is exactly my doctrine. +But the doctrine of the church is, that you can. The + +184 + +church says, that just at the last, no matter if you +have spent your whole life in raising thorns and thistles, +in planting and watering and hoeing and plowing +thorns and thistles--that just at the last, if you will +repent, between hoeing the last thistle and taking the +last breath, you can reach out the white and palsied +hand of death and gather from every thorn a cluster +of grapes and from every thistle an abundance of +figs. The church insists that in this way you can +gather enough grapes and figs to last you through all +eternity. + +My doctrine is, that he who raises thorns must +harvest thorns. If you sow thorns, you must reap +thorns; and there is no way by which an innocent +being can have the thorns you raise thrust into his +brow, while you gather his grapes. + +But Christianity goes even further than this. It +insists that a man can plant grapes and gather thorns. +Mr. Talmage insists that, no matter how good you +are, no matter how kind, no matter how much you +love your wife and children, no matter how many +self-denying acts you do, you will not be allowed to +eat of the grapes you raise; that God will step be- +tween you and the natural consequences of your +goodness, and not allow you to reap what you sow. + +185 + +Mr. Talmage insists, that if you have no faith in the +Lord Jesus Christ, although you have been good +here, you will reap eternal pain as your harvest; that +the effect of honesty and kindness will not be peace +and joy, but agony and pain. So that the church +does insist not only that you can gather grapes from +thorns, but thorns from grapes. + +I believe exactly the other way. If a man is a +good man here, dying will not change him, and he +will land on the shore of another world--if there is +one--the same good man that he was when he left +this; and I do not believe there is any God in this +universe who can afford to damn a good man. This +God will say to this man: You loved your wife, +your children, and your friends, and I love you. +You treated others with kindness; I will treat you +in the same way. But Mr. Talmage steps up to +his God, nudges his elbow, and says: Although he +was a very good man, he belonged to no church; +he was a blasphemer; he denied the whale story, and +after I explained that Jonah was only in the whale's +mouth, he still denied it; and thereupon Mr. Tal- +mage expects that his infinite God will fly in a +passion, and in a perfect rage will say: What! did +he deny that story? Let him be eternally damned! + +186 + +Not only this, but Mr. Talmage insists that a man +may have treated his wife like a wild beast; may have +trampled his child beneath the feet of his rage; may +have lived a life of dishonesty, of infamy, and yet, +having repented on his dying bed, having made his +peace with God through the intercession of his Son, +he will be welcomed in heaven with shouts of joy. +I deny it. I do not believe that angels can be so +quickly made from rascals. I have but little confi- +dence in repentance without restitution, and a hus- +band who has driven a wife to insanity and death by +his cruelty--afterward repenting and finding himself +in heaven, and missing his wife,--were he worthy to +be an angel, would wander through all the gulfs of +hell until he clasped her once again.. + +Now, the next question is, What must be done with +those who are sometimes good and sometimes bad? +That is my condition. If there is another world, I +expect to have the same opportunity of behaving +myself that I have here. If, when I get there, I fail +to act as I should, I expect to reap what I sow. If, +when I arrive at the New Jerusalem, I go into the +thorn business, I expect to harvest what I plant. If +I am wise enough to start a vineyard, I expect to +have grapes in the early fall. But if I do there as I + +187 + +have done here--plant some grapes and some thorns, +and harvest them together--I expect to fare very +much as I have fared here. But I expect year by +year to grow wiser, to plant fewer thorns every +spring, and more grapes. + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage charges that you have +taken the ground that the Bible is a cruel book, and +has produced cruel people? + +_Answer_. Yes, I have taken that ground, and I +maintain it. The Bible was produced by cruel people, +and in its turn it has produced people like its authors. +The extermination of the Canaanites was cruel. +Most of the laws of Moses were bloodthirsty and +cruel. Hundreds of offences were punishable by +death, while now, in civilized countries, there are only +two crimes for which the punishment is capital. I +charge that Moses and Joshua and David and Samuel +and Solomon were cruel. I believe that to read and +believe the Old Testament naturally makes a man +careless of human life. That book has produced +hundreds of religious wars, and it has furnished the +battle-cries of bigotry for fifteen hundred years. + +The Old Testament is filled with cruelty, but its +cruelty stops with this world, its malice ends with + +188 + +death; whenever its victim has reached the grave, +revenge is satisfied. Not so with the New Testament. +It pursues its victim forever. After death, comes +hell; after the grave, the worm that never dies. So +that, as a matter of fact, the New Testament is in- +finitely more cruel than the Old. + +Nothing has so tended to harden the human heart +as the doctrine of eternal punishment, and that +passage: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be +"saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned," +has shed more blood than all the other so-called +"sacred books" of all this world. + +I insist that the Bible is cruel. The Bible invented +instruments of torture. The Bible laid the foundations +of the Inquisition. The Bible furnished the fagots and +the martyrs. The Bible forged chains not only for the +hands, but for the brains of men. The Bible was at +the bottom of the massacre of St. Bartholomew. +Every man who has been persecuted for religion's +sake has been persecuted by the Bible. That sacred +book has been a beast of prey. + +The truth is, Christians have been good in spite of +the Bible. The Bible has lived upon the reputations of +good men and good women,--men and women who +were good notwithstanding the brutality they found + + +189 + +upon the inspired page. Men have said: "My mother +"believed in the Bible; my mother was good; there- +"fore, the Bible is good," when probably the mother +never read a chapter in it. + +The Bible produced the Church of Rome, and +Torquemada was a product of the Bible. Philip of +Spain and the Duke of Alva were produced by the +Bible. For thirty years Europe was one vast battle- +field, and the war was produced by the Bible. The re- +vocation of the Edict of Nantes was produced by the +sacred Scriptures. The instruments of torture--the +pincers, the thumb-screws, the racks, were produced +by the word of God. The Quakers of New England +were whipped and burned by the Bible--their children +were stolen by the Bible. The slave-ship had for its +sails the leaves of the Bible. Slavery was upheld in +the United States by the Bible. The Bible was the +auction-block. More than this, worse than this, +infinitely beyond the computation of imagination, the +despotisms of the old world all rested and still rest +upon the Bible. "The powers that be" were sup- +posed to have been "ordained of God;" and he who +rose against his king periled his soul. + +In this connection, and in order to show the state +of society when the church had entire control of civil + +190 + +and ecclesiastical affairs, it may be well enough to +read the following, taken from the _New York Sun_ of +March 21, 1882. From this little extract, it will be +easy in the imagination to re-organize the government +that then existed, and to see clearly the state of so- +ciety at that time. This can be done upon the same +principle that one scale tells of the entire fish, or one +bone of the complete animal: + +"From records in the State archives of Hesse- +"Darmstadt, dating back to the thirteenth century, +"it appears that the public executioner's fee for boiling +"a criminal in oil was twenty-four florins; for decapi- +"tating with the sword, fifteen florins and-a-half; for +"quartering, the same; for breaking on the wheel, +"five florins, thirty kreuzers; for tearing a man to +"pieces, eighteen florins. Ten florins per head was +"his charge for hanging, and he burned delinquents +"alive at the rate of fourteen florins apiece. For ap- +"plying the 'Spanish boot' his fee was only two +"florins. Five florins were paid to him every time he +"subjected a refractory witness to the torture of the +"rack. The same amount was his due for 'branding +"'the sign of the gallows with a red-hot iron upon +"'the back, forehead, or cheek of a thief,' as well as +"for 'cutting off the nose and ears of a slanderer or + +191 + +"'blasphemer.' Flogging with rods was a cheap +"punishment, its remuneration being fixed at three +"florins, thirty kreuzers." + +The Bible has made men cruel. It is a cruel book. +And yet, amidst its thorns, amidst its thistles, amidst +its nettles and its swords and pikes, there are some +flowers, and these I wish, in common with all good +men, to save. + +I do not believe that men have ever been made +merciful in war by reading the Old Testament. I do +not believe that men have ever been prompted to +break the chain of a slave by reading the Pentateuch. +The question is not whether Florence Nightingale and +Miss Dix were cruel. I have said nothing about +John Howard, nothing about Abbott Lawrence. +I say nothing about people in this connection. The +question is: Is the Bible a cruel book? not: Was +Miss Nightingale a cruel woman? There have been +thousands and thousands of loving, tender and char- +itable Mohammedans. Mohammedan mothers love +their children as well as Christian mothers can. +Mohammedans have died in defence of the Koran-- +died for the honor of an impostor. There were +millions of charitable people in India--millions in +Egypt--and I am not sure that the world has ever + +192 + +produced people who loved one another better than +the Egyptians. + +I think there are many things in the Old Testament +calculated to make man cruel. Mr. Talmage asks: +"What has been the effect upon your children? As +"they have become more and more fond of the +"Scriptures have they become more and more fond +"of tearing off the wings of flies and pinning grass- +"hoppers and robbing birds' nests?" + +I do not believe that reading the bible would make +them tender toward flies or grasshoppers. According +to that book, God used to punish animals for the +crimes of their owners. He drowned the animals in +a flood. He visited cattle with disease. He bruised +them to death with hailstones--killed them by the +thousand. Will the reading of these things make +children kind to animals? So, the whole system of +sacrifices in the Old Testament is calculated to harden +the heart. The butchery of oxen and lambs, the killing +of doves, the perpetual destruction of life, the con- +tinual shedding of blood--these things, if they have +any tendency, tend only to harden the heart of child- +hood. + +The Bible does not stop simply with the killing of +animals. The Jews were commanded to kill their + +193 + +neighbors--not only the men, but the women; not +only the women, but the babes. In accordance with +the command of God, the Jews killed not only their +neighbors, but their own brothers; and according to +this book, which is the foundation, as Mr. Talmage +believes, of all mercy, men were commanded to kill +their wives because they differed with them on the +subject of religion. + +Nowhere in the world can be found laws more un- +just and cruel than in the Old Testament. + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage wants you to tell where +the cruelty of the Bible crops out in the lives of Chris- +tians? + +_Answer_. In the first place, millions of Christians +have been persecutors. Did they get the idea of +persecution from the Bible? Will not every honest +man admit that the early Christians, by reading the +Old Testament, became convinced that it was not +only their privilege, but their duty, to destroy heathen +nations? Did they not, by reading the same book, +come to the conclusion that it was their solemn duty +to extirpate heresy and heretics? According to the +New Testament, nobody could be saved unless he +believed in the Lord Jesus Christ. The early Chris- + +194 + +tians believed this dogma. They also believed that +they had a right to defend themselves and their +children from "heretics." + +We all admit that a man has a right to defend his +children against the assaults of a would-be murderer, +and he has the right to carry this defence to the +extent of killing the assailant. If we have the right +to kill people who are simply trying to kill the bodies +of our children, of course we have the right to kill +them when they are endeavoring to assassinate, not +simply their bodies, but their souls. It was in this +way Christians reasoned. If the Testament is right, +their reasoning was correct. Whoever believes the +New Testament literally--whoever is satisfied that it +is absolutely the word of God, will become a perse- +cutor. All religious persecution has been, and is, in +exact harmony with the teachings of the Old and +New Testaments. Of course I mean with some of +the teachings. I admit that there are passages in +both the Old and New Testaments against persecu- +tion. These are passages quoted only in time of +peace. Others are repeated to feed the flames of +war. + +I find, too, that reading the Bible and believing the +Bible do not prevent even ministers from telling false- + +195 + +hoods about their opponents. I find that the Rev. +Mr. Talmage is willing even to slander the dead,-- +that he is willing to stain the memory of a Christian, +and that he does not hesitate to give circulation +to what he knows to be untrue. Mr. Talmage +has himself, I believe, been the subject of a church +trial. How many of the Christian witnesses against +him, in his judgment, told the truth? Yet they were +all Bible readers and Bible believers. What effect, in +his judgment, did the reading of the Bible have upon +his enemies? Is he willing to admit that the testi- +mony of a Bible, reader and believer is true? Is he +willing to accept the testimony even of ministers? +--of his brother ministers? Did reading the Bible +make them bad people? Was it a belief in the Bible +that colored their testimony? Or, was it a belief in +the Bible that made Mr. Talmage deny the truth of +their statements? + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage charges you with having +said that the Scriptures are a collection of polluted +writings? + +_Answer_. I have never said such a thing. I have +said, and I still say, that there are passages in the +Bible unfit to be read--passages that never should + +196 + +have been written--passages, whether inspired or +uninspired, that can by no possibility do any human +being any good. I have always admitted that there +are good passages in the Bible--many good, wise +and just laws--many things calculated to make men +better--many things calculated to make men worse. +I admit that the Bible is a mixture of good and bad, +of truth and falsehood, of history and fiction, of sense +and nonsense, of virtue and vice, of aspiration and +revenge, of liberty and tyranny. + +I have never said anything against Solomon's +Song. I like it better than I do any book that pre- +cedes it, because it touches upon the human. In the +desert of murder, wars of extermination, polygamy, +concubinage and slavery, it is an oasis where the +trees grow, where the birds sing, and where human +love blossoms and fills the air with perfume. I do +not regard that book as obscene. There are many +things in it that are beautiful and tender, and it is +calculated to do good rather than harm. + +Neither have I any objection to the book of Eccle- +siastes--except a few interpolations in it. That book +was written by a Freethinker, by a philosopher. +There is not the slightest mention of God in it, nor +of another state of existence. All portions in which + +197 + +God is mentioned are interpolations. With some of +this book I agree heartily. I believe in the doctrine +of enjoying yourself, if you can, to-day. I think it +foolish to spend all your years in heaping up treas- +ures, not knowing but he who will spend them is to +be an idiot. I believe it is far better to be happy with +your wife and child now, than to be miserable here, +with angelic expectations in some other world. + +Mr. Talmage is mistaken when he supposes that all +Bible believers have good homes, that all Bible readers +are kind in their families. As a matter of fact, nearly all +the wife-whippers of the United States are orthodox. +Nine-tenths of the people in the penitentiaries are +believers. Scotland is one of the most orthodox +countries in the world, and one of the most intem- +perate. Hundreds and hundreds of women are +arrested every year in Glasgow for drunkenness. +Visit the Christian homes in the manufacturing dis- +tricts of England. Talk with the beaters of children +and whippers of wives, and you will find them be- +lievers. Go into what is known as the "Black +"Country," and you will have an idea of the Chris- +tian civilization of England. + +Let me tell you something about the "Black +"Country." There women work in iron; there women + +198 + +do the work of men. Let me give you an instance: +A commission was appointed by Parliament to ex- +amine into the condition of the women in the "Black +"Country," and a report was made. In that report +I read the following: + +"A superintendent of a brickyard where women +"were engaged in carrying bricks from the yard to +"the kiln, said to one of the women: + +"'Eliza, you don't appear to be very uppish this +"morning.'" + +"'Neither would you be very uppish, sir,' she re- +"plied, 'if you had had a child last night.'" + +This gives you an idea of the Christian civilization +of England. + +England and Ireland produce most of the prize- +fighters. The scientific burglar is a product of Great +Britain. There is not the great difference that Mr. +Talmage supposes, between the morality of Pekin +and of New York. I doubt if there is a city in +the world with more crime according to the population +than New York, unless it be London, or it may be +Dublin, or Brooklyn, or possibly Glasgow, where +a man too pious to read a newspaper published on +Sunday, stole millions from the poor. + +I do not believe there is a country in the world + +199 + +where there is more robbery than in Christian lands-- +no country where more cashiers are defaulters, where +more presidents of banks take the money of depositors, +where there is more adulteration of food, where +fewer ounces make a pound, where fewer inches make +a yard, where there is more breach of trust, more +respectable larceny under the name of embezzlement, +or more slander circulated as gospel. + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage insists that there are no +contradictions in the Bible--that it is a perfect har- +mony from Genesis to Revelation--a harmony as +perfect as any piece of music ever written by +Beethoven or Handel? + +_Answer_. Of course, if God wrote it, the Bible +ought to be perfect. I do not see why a minister +should be so perfectly astonished to find that an +inspired book is consistent with itself throughout. +Yet the truth is, the Bible is infinitely inconsistent. + +Compare the two systems--the system of Jehovah +and that of Jesus. In the Old Testament the doctrine +of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" was +taught. In the New Testament, "forgive your +"enemies," and "pray for those who despitefully +"use you and persecute you." In the Old Testament + +200 + +it is kill, burn, massacre, destroy; in the New forgive. +The two systems are inconsistent, and one is just +about as far wrong as the other. To live for and +thirst for revenge, to gloat over the agony of an +enemy, is one extreme; to "resist not evil" is the +other extreme; and both these extremes are equally +distant from the golden mean of justice. + +The four gospels do not even agree as to the terms +of salvation. And yet, Mr. Talmage tells us that +there are four cardinal doctrines taught in the Bible-- +the goodness of God, the fall of man, the sympathetic +and forgiving nature of the Savior, and two desti- +nies--one for believers and the other for unbelievers. +That is to say: + +1. That God is good, holy and forgiving. + +2. That man is a lost sinner. + +3. That Christ is "all sympathetic," and ready to +take the whole world to his heart. + +4. Heaven for believers and hell for unbelievers. + +_First_. I admit that the Bible says that God is + +good and holy. But this Bible also tells what God +did, and if God did what the Bible says he did, then I +insist that God is not good, and that he is not holy, +or forgiving. According to the Bible, this good +God believed in religious persecution; this good + +201 + +God believed in extermination, in polygamy, in con- +cubinage, in human slavery; this good God com- +manded murder and massacre, and this good God +could only be mollified by the shedding of blood. +This good God wanted a butcher for a priest. This +good God wanted husbands to kill their wives-- +wanted fathers and mothers to kill their children. +This good God persecuted animals on account of the +crimes of their owners. This good God killed the +common people because the king had displeased him. +This good God killed the babe even of the maid +behind the mill, in order that he might get even with +a king. This good God committed every possible +crime. + +_Second_. The statement that man is a lost sinner +is not true. There are thousands and thousands of +magnificent Pagans--men ready to die for wife, or +child, or even for friend, and the history of Pagan +countries is filled with self-denying and heroic acts. +If man is a failure, the infinite God, if there be one, +is to blame. Is it possible that the God of Mr. Tal- +mage could not have made man a success? Accord- +ing to the Bible, his God made man knowing that in +about fifteen hundred years he would have to drown +all his descendants. + +202 + +Why would a good God create a man that he +knew would be a sinner all his life, make hundreds +of thousands of his fellow-men unhappy, and who at +last would be doomed to an eternity of suffering? +Can such a God be good? How could a devil have +done worse? + +_Third._ If God is infinitely good, is he not fully as +sympathetic as Christ? Do you have to employ +Christ to mollify a being of infinite mercy? Is Christ +any more willing to take to his heart the whole world +than his Father is? Personally, I have not the +slightest objection in the world to anybody believing +in an infinitely good and kind God--not the slightest +objection to any human being worshiping an infi- +nitely tender and merciful Christ--not the slightest +objection to people preaching about heaven, or about +the glories of the future state--not the slightest. + +_Fourth_. I object to the doctrine of two destinies +for the human race. I object to the infamous false- +hood of eternal fire. And yet, Mr. Talmage is en- +deavoring to poison the imagination of men, women +and children with the doctrine of an eternal hell. +Here is what he preaches, taken from the "Constitu- +"tion of the Presbyterian Church of the United +"States:" + +203 + +"By the decrees of God, for the manifestation of +"his glory, some men and angels are predestinated +"to everlasting life, and others foreordained to ever- +"lasting death." + +That is the doctrine of Mr. Talmage. He wor- +ships a God who damns people "for the manifesta- +"tion of his glory,"--a God who made men, knowing +that they would be damned--a God who damns +babes simply to increase his reputation with the +angels. This is the God of Mr. Talmage. Such a +God I abhor, despise and execrate. + +_Question_. What does Mr. Talmage think of man- +kind? What is his opinion of the "unconverted"? +How does he regard the great and glorious of the +earth, who have not been the victims of his particular +superstition? What does he think of some of the +best the earth has produced? + +_Answer_. I will tell you how he looks upon all +such. Read this from his "Confession of Faith:" + +"Our first parents, being seduced by the subtlety +"of the tempter, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. +"By this sin, they fell from their original righteous- +"ness and communion with God, and so became +"dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties + +204 + +"and parts of soul and body; and they being the +"root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was +"imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted +"nature conveyed to all their posterity. From this +"original corruption--whereby we are utterly indis- +"posed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, +"and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual +"transgressions." + +This is Mr. Talmage's view of humanity. + +Why did his God make a devil? Why did he +allow the devil to tempt Adam and Eve? Why did +he leave innocence and ignorance at the mercy of +subtlety and wickedness? Why did he put "the +"tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in the +garden? For what reason did he place temptation +in the way of his children? Was it kind, was it just, +was it noble, was it worthy of a good God? No +wonder Christ put into his prayer: "Lead us not +"into temptation." + +At the time God told Adam and Eve not to eat, +why did he not tell them of the existence of Satan? +Why were they not put upon their guard against the +serpent? Why did not God make his appearance +just before the sin, instead of just after. Why did +he not play the role of a Savior instead of that of a + +205 + +detective? After he found that Adam and Eve had +sinned--knowing as he did that they were then +totally corrupt--knowing that all their children +would be corrupt, knowing that in fifteen hundred +years he would have to drown millions of them, why +did he not allow Adam and Eve to perish in accord- +ance with natural law, then kill the devil, and make a +new pair? + +When the flood came, why did he not drown all? +Why did he save for seed that which was "perfectly +"and thoroughly corrupt in all its parts and facul- +"ties"? If God had drowned Noah and his sons +and their families, he could have then made a new +pair, and peopled the world with men not "wholly +"defiled in all their faculties and parts of soul and +"body." + +Jehovah learned nothing by experience. He per- +sisted in his original mistake. What would we think +of a man who finding that a field of wheat was +worthless, and that such wheat never could be +raised with profit, should burn all of the field with the +exception of a few sheaves, which he saved for seed? +Why save such seed? Why should God have pre- +served Noah, knowing that he was totally corrupt, +and that he would again fill the world with infamous + +206 + +people--people incapable of a good action? He +must have known at that time, that by preserving +Noah, the Canaanites would be produced, that these +same Canaanites would have to be murdered, that +the babes in the cradles would have to be strangled. +Why did he produce them? He knew at that time, +that Egypt would result from the salvation of Noah, +that the Egyptians would have to be nearly de- +stroyed, that he would have to kill their first-born, +that he would have to visit even their cattle with +disease and hailstones. He knew also that the +Egyptians would oppress his chosen people for two +hundred and fifteen years, that they would upon the +back of toil inflict the lash. Why did he preserve +Noah? He should have drowned all, and started +with a new pair. He should have warned them +against the devil, and he might have succeeded, in +that way, in covering the world with gentlemen and +ladies, with real men and real women. + +We know that most of the people now in the +world are not Christians. Most who have heard the +gospel of Christ have rejected it, and the Presby- +terian Church tells us what is to become of all these +people. This is the "glad tidings of great joy." +Let us see: + +207 + +"All mankind, by their fall, lost communion with +"God, are under his wrath and curse, and so made +"liable to all the miseries of this life, to death itself, +"and to the pains of hell forever." + +According to this good Presbyterian doctrine, all +that we suffer in this world, is the result of Adam's +fall. The babes of to-day suffer for the crime of the +first parents. Not only so; but God is angry at us +for what Adam did. We are under the wrath of an +infinite God, whose brows are corrugated with eternal +hatred. + +Why should God hate us for being what we are +and necessarily must have been? A being that God +made--the devil--for whose work God is responsible, +according to the Bible wrought this woe. God of his +own free will must have made the devil. What did +he make him for? Was it necessary to have a devil +in heaven? God, having infinite power, can of +course destroy this devil to-day. Why does he per- +mit him to live? Why did he allow him to thwart his +plans? Why did he permit him to pollute the inno- +cence of Eden? Why does he allow him now to +wrest souls by the million from the redeeming hand +of Christ? + +According to the Scriptures, the devil has always + +208 + +been successful. He enjoys himself. He is called +"the prince of the power of the air." He has no +conscientious scruples. He has miraculous power. +All miraculous power must come of God, otherwise +it is simply in accordance with nature. If the devil +can work a miracle, it is only with the consent and +by the assistance of the Almighty. Is the God of +Mr. Talmage in partnership with the devil? Do +they divide profits? + +We are also told by the Presbyterian Church-- +I quote from their Confession of Faith--that "there +"is no sin so small but it deserves damnation.'' Yet +Mr. Talmage tells us that God is good, that he is filled +with mercy and loving-kindness. A child nine or ten +years of age commits a sin, and thereupon it deserves +eternal damnation. That is what Mr. Talmage calls, +not simply justice, but mercy; and the sympathetic +heart of Christ is not touched. The same being who +said: "Suffer little children to come unto me," tells +us that a child, for the smallest sin, deserves to be +eternally damned. The Presbyterian Church tells us +that infants, as well as adults, in order to be saved, +need redemption by the blood of Christ, and regen- +eration by the Holy Ghost. + +I am charged with trying to take the consolation + +209 + +of this doctrine from the world. I am a criminal +because I am endeavoring to convince the mother +that her child does not deserve eternal punishment. +I stand by the graves of those who "died in their +"sins," by the tombs of the "unregenerate," over the +ashes of men who have spent their lives working for +their wives and children, and over the sacred dust of +soldiers who died in defence of flag and country, +and I say to their friends--I say to the living who +loved them, I say to the men and women for whom +they worked, I say to the children whom they edu- +cated, I say to the country for which they died: +These fathers, these mothers, these wives, these +husbands, these soldiers are not in hell. + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage insists that the Bible is +scientific, and that the real scientific man sees no +contradiction between revelation and science; that, +on the contrary, they are in harmony. What is your +understanding of this matter? + +_Answer_. I do not believe the Bible to be a sci- +entific book. In fact, most of the ministers now admit +that it was not written to teach any science. They +admit that the first chapter of Genesis is not geo- +logically true. They admit that Joshua knew nothing + +210 + +of science. They admit that four-footed birds did +not exist in the days of Moses. In fact, the only +way they can avoid the unscientific statements of the +Bible, is to assert that the writers simply used the +common language of their day, and used it, not with +the intention of teaching any scientific truth, but for +the purpose of teaching some moral truth. As a +matter of fact, we find that moral truths have been +taught in all parts of this world. They were taught +in India long before Moses lived; in Egypt long be- +fore Abraham was born; in China thousands of +years before the flood. They were taught by hundreds +and thousands and millions before the Garden of +Eden was planted. + +It would be impossible to prove the truth of a +revelation simply because it contained moral truths. +If it taught immorality, it would be absolutely certain +that it was not a revelation from an infinitely good +being. If it taught morality, it would be no reason +for even suspecting that it had a divine origin. But +if the Bible had given us scientific truths; if the +ignorant Jews had given us the true theory of our +solar system; if from Moses we had learned the +nature of light and heat; if from Joshua we had +learned something of electricity; if the minor pro- + +211 + +phets had given us the distances to other planets; +if the orbits of the stars had been marked by the +barbarians of that day, we might have admitted that +they must have been inspired. If they had said any- +thing in advance of their day; if they had plucked +from the night of ignorance one star of truth, we +might have admitted the claim of inspiration; but +the Scriptures did not rise above their source, did +not rise above their ignorant authors--above the +people who believed in wars of extermination, in +polygamy, in concubinage, in slavery, and who taught +these things in their "sacred Scriptures." + +The greatest men in the scientific world have not +been, and are not, believers in the inspiration of the +Scriptures. There has been no greater astronomer +than Laplace. There is no greater name than +Humboldt. There is no living scientist who stands +higher than Charles Darwin. All the professors in +all the religious colleges in this country rolled into +one, would not equal Charles Darwin. All the cow- +ardly apologists for the cosmogony of Moses do not +amount to as much in the world of thought as Ernst +Haeckel. There is no orthodox scientist the equal +of Tyndall or Huxley. There is not one in this +country the equal of John Fiske. I insist, that the + +212 + +foremost men to-day in the scientific world reject the +dogma of inspiration. They reject the science of the +Bible, and hold in utter contempt the astronomy of +Joshua, and the geology of Moses. + +Mr. Talmage tells us "that Science is a boy and +"Revelation is a man." Of course, like the most he +says, it is substantially the other way. Revelation, +so-called, was the boy. Religion was the lullaby of +the cradle, the ghost-story told by the old woman, +Superstition. Science is the man. Science asks for +demonstration. Science impels us to investigation, +and to verify everything for ourselves. Most pro- +fessors of American colleges, if they were not afraid +of losing their places, if they did not know that +Christians were bad enough now to take the bread +from their mouths, would tell their students that the +Bible is not a scientific book. + +I admit that I have said: + +1. That the Bible is cruel. + +2. That in many passages it is impure. + +3. That it is contradictory. + +4. That it is unscientific. + +Let me now prove these propositions one by one. + +First. The Bible is cruel. + +I have opened it at random, and the very first + +213 + +chapter that has struck my eye is the sixth of First +Samuel. In the nineteenth verse of that chapter, I +find the following: + +"And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because +"they had looked into the ark of the Lord; even he +"smote of the people fifty thousand and three-score +"and ten men." + +All this slaughter was because some people had +looked into a box that was carried upon a cart. Was +that cruel? + +I find, also, in the twenty-fourth chapter of Second +Samuel, that David was moved by God to number +Israel and Judah. God put it into his heart to take +a census of his people, and thereupon David said to +Joab, the captain of his host: + +"Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from +"Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, +"that I may know the number of the people." + +At the end of nine months and twenty days, Joab +gave the number of the people to the king, and +there were at that time, according to that census, +"eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the +"sword," in Israel, and in Judah, "five hundred +"thousand men," making a total of thirteen hundred +thousand men of war. The moment this census was + +214 + +taken, the wrath of the Lord waxed hot against +David, and thereupon he sent a seer, by the name of +Gad, to David, and asked him to choose whether he +would have seven years of famine, or fly three +months before his enemies, or have three days of +pestilence. David concluded that as God was so +merciful as to give him a choice, he would be more +merciful than man, and he chose the pestilence. + +Now, it must be remembered that the sin of taking +the census had not been committed by the people, +but by David himself, inspired by God, yet the +people were to be punished for David's sin. So,, +when David chose the pestilence, God immediately +killed "seventy thousand men, from Dan even to +"Beersheba." + +"And when the angel stretched out his hand upon +"Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented him of +"the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the +"people, It is enough; stay now thine hand." + +Was this cruel? + +Why did a God of infinite mercy destroy seventy +thousand men? Why did he fill his land with widows +and orphans, because King David had taken the cen- +sus? If he wanted to kill anybody, why did he not +kill David? I will tell you why. Because at that + +215 + +time, the people were considered as the property of +the king. He killed the people precisely as he killed +the cattle. And yet, I am told that the Bible is not a +cruel book. + +In the twenty-first chapter of Second Samuel, I +find that there were three years of famine in the days +of David, and that David inquired of the Lord the +reason of the famine; and the Lord told him that it +was because Saul had slain the Gibeonites. Why did +not God punish Saul instead of the people? And +David asked the Gibeonites how he should make +atonement, and the Gibeonites replied that they +wanted no silver nor gold, but they asked that seven +of the sons of Saul might be delivered unto them, so +that they could hang them before the Lord, in Gibeah. +And David agreed to the proposition, and thereupon +he delivered to the Gibeonites the two sons of Rizpah, +Saul's concubine, and the five sons of Michal, the +daughter of Saul, and the Gibeonites hanged all +seven of them together. And Rizpah, more tender +than them all, with a woman's heart of love kept +lonely vigil by the dead, "from the beginning of har- +"vest until water dropped upon them out of heaven, +"and suffered neither the birds of the air to rest upon +"them by day, nor the beast of the field by night." + +216 + +I want to know if the following, from the fifteenth +chapter of First Samuel, is inspired: + +"Thus saith the Lord of hosts; I remember that +"which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for +"him in the way when he came up from Egypt. Now +"go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that +"they have, and spare them not, but slay both man +"and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, +"camel and ass." + +We must remember that those he was commanded +to slay had done nothing to Israel. It was something +done by their forefathers, hundreds of years before; +and yet they are commanded to slay the women and +children and even the animals, and to spare none. + +It seems that Saul only partially carried into exe- +cution this merciful command of Jehovah. He spared +the life of the king. He "utterly destroyed all the +"people with the edge of the sword," but he kept +alive the best of the sheep and oxen and of the fat- +lings and lambs. Then God spake unto Samuel and +told him that he was very sorry he had made Saul +king, because he had not killed all the animals, and +because he had spared Agag; and Samuel asked +Saul: "What meaneth this bleating of sheep in mine +"ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?" + +217 + +Are stories like this calculated to make soldiers +merciful? + +So I read in the sixth chapter of Joshua, the fate +of the city of Jericho: "And they utterly destroyed +"all that was in the city, both man and woman, +"young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the +"edge of the sword. And they burnt the city with +"fire, and all that was therein." But we are told that +one family was saved by Joshua, out of the general +destruction: "And Joshua saved Rahab, the harlot, +"alive, and her father's household, and all that she +"had." Was this fearful destruction an act of +mercy? + +It seems that they saved the money of their +victims: "the silver and gold and the vessels of brass +"and of iron they put into the treasury of the house +"of the Lord." + +After all this pillage and carnage, it appears +that there was a suspicion in Joshua's mind that +somebody was keeping back a part of the treasure. +Search was made, and a man by the name of Achan +admitted that he had sinned against the Lord, that he +had seen a Babylonish garment among the spoils, and +two hundred shekels of silver and a wedge of gold of +fifty shekels' weight, and that he took them and hid + +2l8 + +them in his tent. For this atrocious crime it seems +that the Lord denied any victories to the Jews until +they found out the wicked criminal. When they dis- +covered poor Achan, "they took him and his sons +"and his daughters, and his oxen and his asses and +"his sheep, and all that he had, and brought them unto +"the valley of Achor; and all Israel stoned him with +"stones and burned them with fire after they had +"stoned them with stones." + +After Achan and his sons and his daughters and +his herds had been stoned and burned to death, we +are told that "the Lord turned from the fierceness of +"his anger." + +And yet it is insisted that this God "is merciful, +"and that his loving-kindness is over all his works." +In the eighth chapter of this same book, the infi- +nite God, "creator of heaven and earth and all that is +"therein," told his general, Joshua, to lay an ambush +for a city--to "lie in wait against the city, even be- +"hind the city; go not very far from the city, but be +"ye all ready." He told him to make an attack and +then to run, as though he had been beaten, in order +that the inhabitants of the city might follow, and +thereupon his reserves that he had ambushed might +rush into the city and set it on fire. God Almighty + +219 + +planned the battle. God himself laid the snare. The +whole programme was carried out. Joshua made +believe that he was beaten, and fled, and then the +soldiers in ambush rose out of their places, enter- +ed the city, and set it on fire. Then came the +slaughter. They "utterly destroyed all the inhabit- +"ants of Ai," men and maidens, women and babes, +sparing only their king till evening, when they +hanged him on a tree, then "took his carcase down +"from the tree and cast it at the entering of the +"gate, and raised thereon a great heap of stones +"which remaineth unto this day." After having +done all this, "Joshua built an altar unto the Lord +"God of Israel, and offered burnt offerings unto the +"Lord." I ask again, was this cruel? + +Again I ask, was the treatment of the Gibeonites +cruel when they sought to make peace but were +denied, and cursed instead; and although permitted +to live, were yet made slaves? Read the mandate +consigning them to bondage: "Now therefore ye +"are cursed, and there shall none of you be freed +"from being bondmen and hewers of wood and +"drawers of water for the house of my God." + +Is it possible, as recorded in the tenth chapter of +Joshua, that the Lord took part in these battles, and + +220 + +cast down great hail-stones from the battlements of +heaven upon the enemies of the Israelites, so that +"they were more who died with hail-stones, than +"they whom the children of Israel slew with the +"sword"? + +Is it possible that a being of infinite power would +exercise it in that way instead of in the interest of +kindness and peace? + +I find, also, in this same chapter, that Joshua took +Makkedah and smote it with the edge of the sword, +that he utterly destroyed all the souls that were +therein, that he allowed none to remain. + +I find that he fought against Libnah, and smote +it with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed +all the souls that were therein, and allowed none to +remain, and did unto the king as he did unto the king +of Jericho. + +I find that he also encamped against Lachish, and +that God gave him that city, and that he "smote it +"with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that +"were therein," sparing neither old nor young, help- +less women nor prattling babes. + +He also vanquished Horam, King of Gezer, "and +"smote him and his people until he left him none +"remaining." + +221 + +He encamped against the city of Eglon, and killed +every soul that was in it, at the edge of the sword, +just as he had done to Lachish and all the others. + +He fought against Hebron, "and took it and +"smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king +"thereof,"--and it appears that several cities, their +number not named, were included in this slaughter, +for Hebron "and all the cities thereof and all the +"souls that were therein," were utterly destroyed. + +He then waged war against Debir and took it, and +more unnumbered cities with it, and all the souls that +were therein shared the same horrible fate--he did +not leave a soul alive. + +And this chapter of horrors concludes with this +song of victory: + +"So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and +"of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, +"and all their kings: he left none remaining, but +"utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord +"God of Israel commanded. And Joshua smote +"them from Kadeshbarnea even unto Gaza, and all the +"country of Goshen, even unto Gibeon. And all these +"kings and their land did Joshua take at one time, +"because the Lord God of Israel fought for Israel." +Was God, at that time, merciful? + +222 + +I find, also, in the twenty-first chapter that many +Icings met, with their armies, for the purpose of +overwhelming Israel, and the Lord said unto Joshua: +"Be not afraid because of them, for to-morrow about +"this time I will deliver them all slain before Israel. +"I will hough their horses and burn their chariots +"with fire." Were animals so treated by the com- +mand of a merciful God? + +Joshua captured Razor, and smote all the souls +that were therein with the edge of the sword, there +was not one left to breathe; and he took all the +cities of all the kings that took up arms against him, +and utterly destroyed all the inhabitants thereof. +He took the cattle and spoils as prey unto himself, +and smote every man with the edge of the sword; +and not only so, but left not a human being to +breathe. + +I find the following directions given to the Israel- +ites who were waging a war of conquest. They are +in the twentieth chapter of Deuteronomy, from the +tenth to the eighteenth verses: + +"When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight +"against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it +"shall be, if it make thee an answer of peace, and +"open unto thee, then it shall be that all the people + +223 + +"that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, +"and they shall serve thee. And if it will make no +"peace with thee, but will war against thee, then +"thou shalt besiege it. And when the Lord thy +"God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt +"smite every male thereof with the edge of the +"sword; but the women, and the little ones, and +"the cattle, and all that is in the city, even the spoil +"thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou +"shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the +"Lord thy God hath given thee. Thus shalt thou +"do unto all the cities which are very far off from +"thee, which are not of the cities of these nations." +It will be seen from this that people could take +their choice between death and slavery, provided +these people lived a good ways from the Israelites. +Now, let us see how they were to treat the inhabit- +ants of the cities near to them: + +"But of the cities of these people which the Lord +"thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou +"shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou +"shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, +"and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, +"the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the Lord thy God +"hath commanded thee." + +224 + +It never occurred to this merciful God to send +missionaries to these people. He built them no +schoolhouses, taught them no alphabet, gave them +no book; they were not supplied even with a copy of +the Ten Commandments. He did not say "Reform," +but "Kill;" not "Educate," but "Destroy." He gave +them no Bible, built them no church, sent them no +preachers. He knew when he made them that he +would have to have them murdered. When he +created them he knew that they were not fit to live; +and yet, this is the infinite God who is infinitely +merciful and loves his children better than an earthly +mother loves her babe. + +In order to find just how merciful God is, read the +twenty-eighth chapter of Deuteronomy, and see what +he promises to do with people who do not keep all of +his commandments and all of his statutes. He curses +them in their basket and store, in the fruit of their +body, in the fruit of their land, in the increase of their +cattle and sheep. He curses them in the city and in +the field, in their coming in and their going out. He +curses them with pestilence, with consumption, with +fever, with inflammation, with extreme burning, with +sword, with blasting, with mildew. He tells them +that the heavens shall be as brass over their heads + +225 + +and the earth as iron under their feet; that the rain +shall be powder and dust and shall come down on +them and destroy them; that they shall flee seven +ways before their enemies; that their carcasses shall +be meat for the fowls of the air, and the beasts of the +earth; that he will smite them with the botch of +Egypt, and with the scab, and with the itch, and with +madness and blindness and astonishment; that he +will make them grope at noonday; that they shall be +oppressed and spoiled evermore; that one shall be- +troth a wife and another shall have her; that they +shall build a house and not dwell in it; plant a vine- +yard and others shall eat the grapes; that their +sons and daughters shall be given to their enemies; +that he will make them mad for the sight of their +eyes; that he will smite them in the knees and in the +legs with a sore botch that cannot be healed, and +from the sole of the foot to the top of the head; +that they shall be a by-word among all nations; that +they shall sow much seed and gather but little; that +the locusts shall consume their crops; that they shall +plant vineyards and drink no wine,--that they shall +gather grapes, but worms shall eat them; that they +shall raise olives but have no oil; beget sons and +daughters, but they shall go into captivity; that all + +226 + +the trees and fruit of the land shall be devoured by +locusts, and that all these curses shall pursue them +and overtake them, until they be destroyed; that they +shall be slaves to their enemies, and be constantly in +hunger and thirst and nakedness, and in want of all +things. And as though this were not enough, the +Lord tells them that he will bring a nation against +them swift as eagles, a nation fierce and savage, that +will show no mercy and no favor to old or young, +and leave them neither corn, nor wine, nor oil, nor +flocks, nor herds; and this nation shall besiege them +in their cities until they are reduced to the necessity +of eating the flesh of their own sons and daughters; +so that the men would eat their wives and their +children, and women eat their husbands and their +own sons and daughters, and their own babes. + +All these curses God pronounced upon them if they +did not observe to do all the words of the law that +were written in his book. + +This same merciful God threatened that he would +bring upon them all the diseases of Egypt--every +sickness and every plague; that he would scatter +them from one end of the earth to the other; that +they should find no rest; that their lives should hang +in perpetual doubt; that in the morning they would + +227 + +say: Would God it were evening! and in the even- +ing, Would God it were morning! and that he would +finally take them back to Egypt where they should +be again sold for bondmen and bondwomen. + +This curse, the foundation of the _Anathema +maranatha_; this curse, used by the pope of Rome to +prevent the spread of thought; this curse used even +by the Protestant Church; this curse born of barba- +rism and of infinite cruelty, is now said to have +issued from the lips of an infinitely merciful God. One +would suppose that Jehovah had gone insane; that +he had divided his kingdom like Lear, and from the +darkness of insanity had launched his curses upon a +world. + +In order that there may be no doubt as to the +mercy of Jehovah, read the thirteenth chapter of +Deuteronomy: + +"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy +"son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or +"thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee +"secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, +"which thou hast not known, thou nor thy fathers; +" * * * thou shalt not consent unto him, nor +"hearken unto him; neither shall thine eyes pity him, +"neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal + +228 + +"him; but thou shalt surely kill him: thine hand +"shall be first upon him to put him to death, and +"afterwards the hand of all the people; and thou +"shalt stone him with stones that he die, because he +"hath sought to entice thee away from the Lord thy +"God." + +This, according to Mr. Talmage, is a commandment +of the infinite God. According to him, God ordered +a man to murder his own son, his own wife, his own +brother, his own daughter, if they dared even to sug- +gest the worship of some other God than Jehovah. +For my part, it is impossible not to despise such +a God--a God not willing that one should worship +what he must. No one can control his admiration, +and if a savage at sunrise falls upon his knees and +offers homage to the great light of the East, he can- +not help it. If he worships the moon, he cannot help +it. If he worships fire, it is because he cannot control +his own spirit. A picture is beautiful to me in spite +of myself. A statue compels the applause of my +brain. The worship of the sun was an exceedingly +natural religion, and why should a man or woman be +destroyed for kneeling at the fireside of the world? + +No wonder that this same God, in the very next +chapter of Deuteronomy to that quoted, says to his + +229 + +chosen people: "Ye shall not eat of anything that +"dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger +"that is within thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou +"mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art a holy +"people unto the Lord thy God." + +What a mingling of heartlessness and thrift--the +religion of sword and trade! + +In the seventh chapter of Deuteronomy, Jehovah +gives his own character. He tells the Israelites that +there are seven nations greater and mightier than +themselves, but that he will deliver them to his chosen +people, and that they shall smite them and utterly +destroy them; and having some fear that a drop of +pity might remain in the Jewish heart, he says: + +"Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor +"show mercy unto them. * * * Know therefore +"that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, +"which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that +"love him and keep his commandments to a thousand +"generations, and repayeth them that hate him to +"their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to +"him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face." +This is the description which the merciful, long-suffer- +ing Jehovah gives of himself. + +So, he promises great prosperity to the Jews if + +230 + +they will only obey his commandments, and says: +"And the Lord will take away from thee all sickness, +"and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt +"upon thee, but will lay them upon all them that +"hate thee. And thou shalt consume all the people +"which the Lord thy God shall deliver thee; thine +"eye shall have no pity upon them." + +Under the immediate government of Jehovah, +mercy was a crime. According to the law of God, +pity was weakness, tenderness was treason, kindness +was blasphemy, while hatred and massacre were +virtues. + +In the second chapter of Deuteronomy we find +another account tending to prove that Jehovah is a +merciful God. We find that Sihon, king of Heshbon, +would not let the Hebrews pass by him, and the +reason given is, that "the Lord God hardened his +"spirit and made his heart obstinate, that he might +"deliver him into the hand" of the Hebrews. Sihon, +his heart having been hardened by God, came out +against the chosen people, and God delivered him to +them, and "they smote him, and his sons, and all his +"people, and took all his cities, and utterly destroyed +"the men and the women, and the little ones of +"every city: they left none to remain." And in this + +231 + +same chapter this same God promises that the dread +and fear of his chosen people should be "upon all the +"nations that are under the whole heaven," and that +"they should "tremble and be in anguish because of" +the Hebrews. + +Read the thirty-first chapter of Numbers, and see +how the Midianites were slain. You will find that +"the children of Israel took all the women of Midian +"captives, and their little ones," that they took "all +"their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods," +that they slew all the males, and burnt all their cities +and castles with fire, that they brought the captives +and the prey and the spoil unto Moses and Eleazar +the priest; that Moses was wroth with the officers +of his host because they had saved all the women +alive, and thereupon this order was given: "Kill +"every male among the little ones, and kill every +"woman, * * * but all the women children +"keep alive for yourselves." + +After this, God himself spake unto Moses, and +said: "Take the sum of the prey that was taken, +"both of man and of beast, thou and Eleazar the +"priest * * * and divide the prey into two +"parts, between those who went to war, and between +"all the congregation, and levy a tribute unto the + +232 + +"Lord, one soul of five hundred of the persons, +"and the cattle; take it of their half and give it to +"the priest for an offering * * * and of the +"children of Israel's half, take one portion of fifty of +"the persons and the animals and give them unto +"the Levites. * * * And Moses and the priest +"did as the Lord had commanded." It seems that +they had taken six hundred and seventy-five thou- +sand sheep, seventy-two thousand beeves, sixty-one +thousand asses, and thirty-two thousand women +children and maidens. And it seems, by the fortieth +verse, _that the Lord's tribute of the maidens was thirty- +two_,--the rest were given to the soldiers and to the +congregation of the Lord. + +Was anything more infamous ever recorded in the +annals of barbarism? And yet we are told that the +Bible is an inspired book, that it is not a cruel book, +and that Jehovah is a being of infinite mercy. + +In the twenty-fifth chapter of Numbers we find +that the Israelites had joined themselves unto Baal- +Peor, and thereupon the anger of the Lord was +kindled against them, as usual. No being ever lost +his temper more frequently than this Jehovah. Upon +this particular occasion, "the Lord said unto Moses, +"Take all the heads of the people, and hang them + +233 + +"up before the Lord against the sun, that the fierce +"anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel." +And thereupon "Moses said unto the judges of Israel, +"Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto +"Baal-peor." + +Just as soon as these people were killed, and their +heads hung up before the Lord against the sun, and +a horrible double murder of a too merciful Israelite +and a Midianitish woman, had been committed by +Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, "the plague was stayed +"from the children of Israel." Twenty-four thousand +had died. Thereupon, "the Lord spake unto Moses +"and said"--and it is a very merciful commandment +--"Vex the Midianites and smite them." + +In the twenty-first chapter of Numbers is more evi- +dence that God is merciful and compassionate. + +The children of Israel had become discouraged. +They had wandered so long in the desert that they +finally cried out: "Wherefore have ye brought us +"up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There +"is no bread, there is no water, and our soul loatheth +"this light bread." Of course they were hungry and +thirsty. Who would not complain under similar cir- +cumstances? And yet, on account of this complaint, +the God of infinite tenderness and compassion sent + +234 + +serpents among them, and these serpents bit them-- +bit the cheeks of children, the breasts of maidens, +and the withered faces of age. Why would a God +do such an infamous thing? Why did he not, as the +leader of this people, his chosen children, feed them +better? Certainly an infinite God had the power +to satisfy their hunger and to quench their thirst. +He who overwhelmed a world with water, certainly +could have made a few brooks, cool and babbling, +to follow his chosen people through all their jour- +neying. He could have supplied them with miracu- +lous food. + +How fortunate for the Jews that Jehovah was not +revengeful, that he was so slow to anger, so patient, +so easily pleased. What would they have done had +he been exacting, easily incensed, revengeful, cruel, +or blood-thirsty? + +In the sixteenth chapter of Numbers, an account is +given of a rebellion. It seems that Korah, Dathan +and Abiram got tired of Moses and Aaron. They +thought the priests were taking a little too much +upon themselves. So Moses told them to have two +hundred and fifty of their men bring their censers +and put incense in them before the Lord, and stand +in the door of the tabernacle of the congregation + +235 + +with Moses and Aaron. That being done, the Lord +appeared, and told Moses and Aaron to separate +themselves from the people, that he might consume +them all in a moment. Moses and Aaron, having a +little compassion, begged God not to kill everybody. +The people were then divided, and Dathan and +Abiram came out and stood in the door of their +tents with their wives and their sons and their little +children. And Moses said: + +"Hereby ye shall know that the Lord hath sent +"me to do all these works; for I have not done them +"of my mine own mind. If these men die the +"common death of all men, or if they be visited +"after the common visitation of all men, then the +"Lord hath not sent me. But if the Lord make a +"new thing, and the earth open her mouth and +"swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, +"and they go down quick into the pit, then ye shall +"understand that these men have provoked the +"Lord." The moment he ceased speaking, "the +"ground clave asunder that was under them; and +"the earth opened her mouth and swallowed them up, +"and their houses, and all the men that appertained +"unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that +"appertained to them went down alive into the pit, + +236 + +"and the earth closed upon them, and they perished +"from among the congregation." + +This, according to Mr. Talmage, was the act of an +exceedingly merciful God, prompted by infinite kind- +ness, and moved by eternal pity. What would he +have done had he acted from motives of revenge? +What would he Jiave done had he been remorse- +lessly cruel and wicked? + +In addition to those swallowed by the earth, the +two hundred and fifty men that offered the incense +were consumed by "a fire that came out from the +"Lord." And not only this, but the same merciful +Jehovah wished to consume all the people, and he +would have consumed them all, only that Moses pre- +vailed upon Aaron to take a censer and put fire +therein from off the altar of incense and go quickly +to the congregation and make an atonement for them. +He was not quick enough. The plague had already +begun; and before he could possibly get the censers +and incense among the people, fourteen thousand and +seven hundred had died of the plague. How many +more might have died, if Jehovah had not been so +slow to anger and so merciful and tender to his +children, we have no means of knowing. + +In the thirteenth chapter of the same book of + +237 + +Numbers, we find that some spies were sent over +into the promised land, and that they brought back +grapes and figs and pomegranates, and reported that +the whole land was flowing with milk and honey, but +that the people were strong, that the cities were +walled, and that the nations in the promised land +were mightier than the Hebrews. They reported that +all the people they met were men of a great stature, +that they had seen "the giants, the sons of Anak +"which come of giants," compared with whom the +Israelites were "in their own sight as grasshoppers, +"and so were we in their sight." Entirely discour- +aged by these reports, "all the congregation lifted up +"their voice and cried, and the people wept that +"night * * * and murmured against Moses and +"against Aaron, and said unto them: Would God +"that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would +"God we had died in this wilderness!" Some of +them thought that it would be better to go back,-- +that they might as well be slaves in Egypt as to be +food for giants in the promised land. They did not +want their bones crunched between the teeth of the +sons of Anak. + +Jehovah got angry again, and said to Moses: +"How long will these people provoke me? * * * + +238 + +"I will smite them with pestilence, and disinherit +"them." But Moses said: Lord, if you do this, +the Egyptians will hear of it, and they will say that +you were not able to bring your people into the +promised land. Then he proceeded to flatter him by +telling him how merciful and long-suffering he had +been. Finally, Jehovah concluded to pardon the +people this time, but his pardon depended upon the +violation of his promise, for he said: "They shall +"not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, +"neither shall any of them that provoked me see it; +"but my servant Caleb, * * * him will I bring +"into the land." And Jehovah said to the people: +"Your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness, and all +"that were numbered of you according to your +"whole number, from twenty years old and upward, +"which have murmured against me, ye shall not +"come into the land concerning which I sware to +"make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of +"Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. But your +"little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them +"will I bring in, and they shall know the land +"which ye have despised. But as for you, your +"carcasses shall fall in this wilderness. And your +"children shall wander in the wilderness forty + +239 + +"years * * * until your carcasses be wasted in +"the wilderness." + +And all this because the people were afraid of +giants, compared with whom they were but as grass- +hoppers. + +So we find that at one time the people became +exceedingly hungry. They had no flesh to eat. +There were six hundred thousand men of war, and +they had nothing to feed on but manna. They +naturally murmured and complained, and thereupon a +wind from the Lord went forth and brought quails +from the sea, (quails are generally found in the sea,) +"and let them fall by the camp, as it were a day's +"journey on this side, and as it were a day's journey +"on the other side, round about the camp, and as it +"were two cubits high upon the face of the earth. +"And the people stood up all that day, and all that +"night, and all the next day, and they gathered the +"quails. * * * And while the flesh was yet be- +"tween their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of +"the Lord was kindled against the people, and the +"Lord smote the people with a very great plague." + +Yet he is slow to anger, long-suffering, merciful +and just. + +In the thirty-second chapter of Exodus, is the ac- + +240 + +count of the golden calf. It must be borne in mind +that the worship of this calf by the people was before +the Ten Commandments had been given to them. +Christians now insist that these commandments must +have been inspired, because no human being could +have constructed them,--could have conceived of +them. + +It seems, according to this account, that Moses had +been up in the mount with God, getting the Ten Com- +mandments, and that while he was there the people +had made the golden calf. When he came down and +saw them, and found what they had done, having in +his hands the two tables, the work of God, he cast +the tables out of his hands, and broke them beneath +the mount. He then took the calf which they had +made, ground it to powder, strewed it in the water, +and made the children of Israel drink of it. And in the +twenty-seventh verse we are told what the Lord did: +"Thus saith the Lord God of Israel: Put every man +"his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate +"to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man +"his brother, and every man his companion, and +"every man his neighbor. And the children of Levi +"did according to the word of Moses; and there fell +"of the people that day about three thousand men." + +241 + +The reason for this slaughter is thus given: "For +"Moses had said: Consecrate yourselves to-day to +"the Lord, even every man upon his son, and upon +" his brother, that he may bestow upon you a blessing +"this day." + +Now, it must be remembered that there had not +been as yet a promulgation of the commandment +u Thou shalt have no other gods before me." This +was a punishment for the infraction of a law before +the law was known--before the commandment had +been given. Was it cruel, or unjust? + +Does the following sound as though spoken by a +God of mercy: "I will make mine arrows drunk +"with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh"? +And yet this is but a small part of the vengeance and +destruction which God threatens to his enemies, as +recorded in the thirty-second chapter of the book of +Deuteronomy. + +In the sixty-eighth Psalm is found this merciful +passage: "That thy foot may be dipped in the blood +"of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the +"same. + +So we find in the eleventh chapter of Joshua the +reason why the Canaanites and other nations made +war upon the Jews. It is as follows: "For it was of + +242 + +"the Lord to harden their hearts that they should +"come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy +"them utterly, and that they might have no favor, but +"that he might destroy them." + +Read the thirtieth chapter of Exodus and you will +find that God gave to Moses a recipe for making +the oil of holy anointment, and in the thirty-second +verse we find that no one was to make any oil like it +and in the next verse it is declared that whoever +compounded any like it, or whoever put any of it on +a stranger, should be cut off from the Lord's people. + +In the same chapter, a recipe is given for per- +fumery, and it is declared that whoever shall make +any like it, or that smells like it, shall suffer death. + +In the next chapter, it is decreed that if any one fails +to keep the Sabbath "he shall be surely put to death." + +There are in the Pentateuch hundreds and hun- +dreds of passages showing the cruelty of Jehovah. +What could have been more cruel than the flood? +What more heartless than to overwhelm a world? +What more merciless than to cover a shoreless sea +with the corpses of men, women and children? + +The Pentateuch is filled with anathemas, with +curses, with words of vengeance, of jealousy, of +hatred, and brutality. By reason of these passages, + +243 + +millions of people have plucked from their hearts the +flowers of pity and justified the murder of women +and the assassination of babes. + +In the second chapter of Second Kings we find +that the prophet Elisha was on his way to a place +called Bethel, and as he was going, there came forth +little children out of the city and mocked him and +said: "Go up thou bald head; Go up thou bald +"head! And he turned back and looked on them +"and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And +"there came forth two she bears out of the wood and +"tare forty and two children of them." + +Of course he obtained his miraculous power from +Jehovah; and there must have been some communi- +cation between Jehovah and the bears. Why did the +bears come? How did they happen to be there? +Here is a prophet of God cursing children in the +name of the Lord, and thereupon these children +are torn in fragments by wild beasts. + +This is the mercy of Jehovah; and yet I am told +that the Bible has nothing cruel in it; that it preaches +only mercy, justice, charity, peace; that all hearts +are softened by reading it; that the savage nature of +man is melted into tenderness and pity by it, and that +only the totally depraved can find evil in it. + +244 + +And so I might go on, page after page, book after +book, in the Old Testament, and describe the cruelties +committed in accordance with the commands of +Jehovah. + +But all the cruelties in the Old Testament are ab- +solute mercies compared with the hell of the New +Testament. In the Old Testament God stops with +the grave. He seems to have been satisfied when he +saw his enemies dead, when he saw their flesh rotting +in the open air, or in the beaks of birds, or in the teeth +of wild beasts. But in the New Testament, ven- +geance does not stop with the grave. It begins there, +and stops never. The enemies of Jehovah are to be +pursued through all the ages of eternity. There is to +be no forgiveness--no cessation, no mercy, nothing +but everlasting pain. + +And yet we are told that the author of hell is a +being of infinite mercy. + +_Second_; All intelligent Christians will admit that +there are many passages in the Bible that, if found in +the Koran, they would regard as impure and immoral. + +It is not necessary for me to specify the passages, +nor to call the attention of the public to such things. +I am willing to trust the judgment of every honest +reader, and the memory of every biblical student. + +245 + +The Old Testament upholds polygamy. That is +infinitely impure. It sanctions concubinage. That +is impure; nothing could or can be worse. Hun- +dreds of things are publicly told that should have re- +mained unsaid. No one is made better by reading +the history of Tamar, or the biography of Lot, or +the memoirs of Noah, of Dinah, of Sarah and +Abraham, or of Jacob and Leah and Rachel and others +that I do not care to mention. No one is improved +in his morals by reading these things. + +All I mean to say is, that the Bible is like other +books produced by other nations in the same stage +of civilization. What one age considers pure, the +next considers impure. What one age may consider +just, the next may look upon as infamous. Civiliza- +tion is a growth. It is continually dying, and continu- +ally being born. Old branches rot and fall, new buds +appear. It is a perpetual twilight, and a perpetual +dawn--the death of the old, and the birth of the new. + +I do not say, throw away the Bible because there +are some foolish passages in it, but I say, throw away +the foolish passages. Don't throw away wisdom +because it is found in company with folly; but do not +say that folly is wisdom, because it is found in its +company. All that is true in the Bible is true whether + +246 + +it is inspired or not. All that is true did not need to +be inspired. Only that which is not true needs the +assistance of miracles and wonders. I read the Bible +as I read other books. What I believe to be good, +I admit is good; what I think is bad, I say is bad; +what I believe to be true, I say is true, and what I +believe to be false, I denounce as false. + +_Third_. Let us see whether there are any contra- +dictions in the Bible. + +A little book has been published, called "Self +"Contradictions of the Bible," by J. P. Mendum, of +The Boston Investigator. I find many of the apparent +contradictions of the Bible noted in this book. + +We all know that the Pentateuch is filled with the +commandments of God upon the subject of sacrificing +animals. We know that God declared, again and +again, that the smell of burning flesh was a sweet +savor to him. Chapter after chapter is filled with direc- +tions how to kill the beasts that were set apart for +sacrifices; what to do with their blood, their flesh and +their fat. And yet, in the seventh chapter of Jeremiah, +all this is expressly denied, in the following language: +"For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded +"them in the day that I brought them out of the land +"of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices." + +247 + +And in the sixth chapter of Jeremiah, the same +Jehovah says; "Your burnt offerings are not ac- +"ceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me." + +In the Psalms, Jehovah derides the idea of +sacrifices, and says: "Will I eat of the flesh of +"bulls, or drink the blood of goats? Offer unto God +"thanksgiving, and pay thy vows unto the Most +"High." + +So I find in Isaiah the following: "Bring no more +"vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; +"the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of as- +"semblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even +"the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your +"appointed feasts my soul hateth; they are a trouble +"to me; I am weary to bear them." "To what +"purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? +"saith the Lord. I am full of the burnt offerings of +"rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not +"in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. +"When ye come to appear before me, who hath re- +"quired this at your hand?" + +So I find in James: "Let no man say when he is +"tempted: I am tempted of God; for God cannot be +"tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man;" +and yet in the twenty-second chapter of Genesis I + +248 + +find this: "And it came to pass after these things, +"that God did tempt Abraham." + +In Second Samuel we see that he tempted David. +He also tempted Job, and Jeremiah says: "O Lord, +"thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived." To +such an extent was Jeremiah deceived, that in the +fourteenth chapter and eighteenth verse we find him +crying out to the Lord: "Wilt thou be altogether +"unto me as a liar?" + +So in Second Thessalonians: "For these things +"God shall send them strong delusions, that they +"should believe a lie." + +So in First Kings, twenty-second chapter: "Behold, +"the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all +"these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil +"concerning thee." + +So in Ezekiel: "And if the prophet be deceived +"when he hath spoken a thing, I, the Lord, have de- +"ceived that prophet." + +So I find: "Thou shalt not bear false witness;" +and in the book of Revelation: "All liars shall have +"their part in the lake which burneth with fire and +"brimstone;" yet in First Kings, twenty-second +chapter, I find the following: "And the Lord said: +"Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and + +249 + +"fall at Ramoth-Gilead? And one said on this +"manner, and another said on that manner. And +"there came forth a spirit and stood before the Lord, +"and said: I will persuade him. And the Lord said +"unto him: Wherewith? And he said: I will go +"forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all +"his prophets. And he said: Thou shalt persuade +"him, and prevail also. Go forth, and do so." + +In the Old Testament we find contradictory laws +about the same thing, and contradictory accounts of +the same occurrences. + +In the twentieth chapter of Exodus we find the first +account of the giving of the Ten Commandments. In +the thirty-fourth chapter another account of the same +transaction is given. These two accounts could not +have been written by the same person. Read them, +and you will be forced to admit that both of them +cannot by any possibility be true. They differ in so +many particulars, and the commandments themselves +are so different, that it is impossible that both can be +true. + +So there are two histories of the creation. If you +will read the first and second chapters of Genesis, +you will find two accounts inconsistent with each +other, both of which cannot be true. The first account + +250 + +ends with the third verse of the second chapter of +Genesis. By the first account, man and woman were +made at the same time, and made last of all. In the +second account, not to be too critical, all the beasts +of the field were made before Eve was, and Adam +was made before the beasts of the field; whereas in +the first account, God made all the animals before he +made Adam. In the first account there is nothing +about the rib or the bone or the side,--that is only +found in the second account. In the first account, +there is nothing about the Garden of Eden, nothing +about the four rivers, nothing about the mist that +went up from the earth and watered the whole face +of the ground; nothing said about making man from +dust; nothing about God breathing into his nostrils +the breath of life; yet according to the second ac- +count, the Garden of Eden was planted, and all the +animals were made before Eve was formed. It is +impossible to harmonize the two accounts. + +So, in the first account, only the word God is +used--"God said so and so,--God did so and so." +In the second account he is called Lord God,--"the +"Lord God formed man,"--"the Lord God caused +"it to rain,"--"the Lord God planted a garden." It +is now admitted that the book of Genesis is made up + +251 + +of two stories, and it is very easy to take them apart +and show exactly how they were put together. + +So there are two stories of the flood, differing +almost entirely from each other--that is to say, so +contradictory that both cannot be true. + +There are two accounts of the manner in which +Saul was made king, and the accounts are inconsistent +with each other. + +Scholars now everywhere admit that the copyists +made many changes, pieced out fragments, and made +additions, interpolations, and meaningless repetitions. +It is now generally conceded that the speeches of +Elihu, in Job, were interpolated, and most of the +prophecies were made by persons whose names even +are not known. + +The manuscripts of the Old Testament were not +alike. The Greek version differed from the Hebrew, +and there was no generally received text of the Old +Testament until after the beginning of the Christian +era. Marks and points to denote vowels were in- +vented probably in the seventh century after Christ; +and whether these marks and points were put in the +proper places, is still an open question. The Alex- +andrian version, or what is known as the Septuagint, +translated by seventy-two learned Jews assisted by + +252 + +miraculous power, about two hundred years before +Christ, could not, it is now said, have been translated +from the Hebrew text that we now have. This can +only be accounted for by supposing that we have a +different Hebrew text. The early Christians adopted +the Septuagint and were satisfied for a time; but so +many errors were found, and so many were scanning +every word in search of something to assist their +peculiar views, that new versions were produced, +and the new versions all differed somewhat from the +Septuagint as well as from each other. These ver- +sions were mostly in Greek. The first Latin Bible +was produced in Africa, and no one has ever found +out which Latin manuscript was original. Many were +produced, and all differed from each other. These +Latin versions were compared with each other and +with the Hebrew, and a new Latin version was made +in the fifth century, and the old ones held their own +for about four hundred years, and no one knows +which version was right. Besides, there were Ethi- +opie, Egyptian, Armenian and several other ver- +sions, all differing from each other as well as from all +others. It was not until the fourteenth century that +the Bible was translated into German, and not until +the fifteenth that Bibles were printed in the principal + +253 + +languages of Europe; and most of these Bibles +differed from each other, and gave rise to endless +disputes and to almost numberless crimes. + +No man in the world is learned enough, nor has +he time enough, even if he could live a thousand +years, to find what books belonged to and consti- +tuted the Old Testament. He could not ascertain +the authors of the books, nor when they were written, +nor what they mean. Until a man has sufficient +time to do all this, no one can tell whether he be- +lieves the Bible or not. It is sufficient, however, to +say that the Old Testament is filled with contradic- +tions as to the number of men slain in battle, as to +the number of years certain kings reigned, as to the +number of a woman's children, as to dates of events, +and as to locations of towns and cities. + +Besides all this, many of its laws are contradictory, +often commanding and prohibiting the same thing. + +The New Testament also is filled with contradic- +tions. The gospels do not even agree upon the +terms of salvation. They do not even agree as to +the gospel of Christ, as to the mission of Christ. +They do not tell the same story regarding the be- +trayal, the crucifixion, the resurrection or the ascen- +sion of Christ. John is the only one that ever heard + +254 + +of being "born again." The evangelists do not give +the same account of the same miracles, and the +miracles are not given in the same order. They do +not agree even in the genealogy of Christ. + +_Fourth_. Is the Bible scientific? In my judgment +it is not + +It is unscientific to say that this world was "cre- +"ated that the universe was produced by an infinite +being, who had existed an eternity prior to such +"creation." My mind is such that I cannot possibly +conceive of a "creation." Neither can I conceive of +an infinite being who dwelt in infinite space an infi- +nite length of time. + +I do not think it is scientific to say that the uni- +verse was made in six days, or that this world is only +about six thousand years old, or that man has only +been upon the earth for about six thousand years. + +If the Bible is true, Adam was the first man. The +age of Adam is given, the age of his children, and +the time, according to the Bible, was kept and known +from Adam, so that if the Bible is true, man has only +been in this world about six thousand years. In my +judgment, and in the judgment of every scientific +man whose judgment is worth having or quoting, +man inhabited this earth for thousands of ages prior + +255 + +to the creation of Adam. On one point the Bible is +at least certain, and that is, as to the life of Adam. +The genealogy is given, the pedigree is there, and it +is impossible to escape the conclusion that, according +to the Bible, man has only been upon this earth +about six thousand years. There is no chance there +to say "long periods of time," or "geological ages." +There we have the years. And as to the time of the +creation of man, the Bible does not tell the truth. + +What is generally called "The Fall of Man" is +unscientific. God could not have made a moral +character for Adam. Even admitting the rest of the +story to be true, Adam certainly had to make char- +acter for himself. + +The idea that there never would have been any +disease or death in this world had it not been for the +eating of the forbidden fruit is preposterously unsci- +entific. Admitting that Adam was made only six +thousand years ago, death was in the world millions of +years before that time. The old rocks are filled with re- +mains of what were once living and breathing animals. +Continents were built up with the petrified corpses of +animals. We know, therefore, that death did not enter +the world because of Adam's sin. We know that life +and death are but successive links in an eternal chain. + +256 + +So it is unscientific to say that thorns and brambles +were produced by Adam's sin. + +It is also unscientific to say that labor was pro- +nounced as a curse upon man. Labor is not a curse. +Labor is a blessing. Idleness is a curse. + +It is unscientific to say that the sons of God, +living, we suppose, in heaven, fell in love with the +daughters of men, and that on account of this a +flood was sent upon the earth that covered the +highest mountains. + +The whole story of the flood is unscientific, and no +scientific man worthy of the name, believes it. + +Neither is the story of the tower of Babel a scien- +tific thing. Does any scientific man believe that +God confounded the language of men for fear they +would succeed in building a tower high enough to +reach to heaven? + +It is not scientific to say that angels were in the +habit of walking about the earth, eating veal dressed +with butter and milk, and making bargains about the +destruction of cities. + +The story of Lot's wife having been turned into a +pillar of salt is extremely unscientific. + +It is unscientific to say that people at one time lived +to be nearly a thousand years of age. The history + +257 + +of the world shows that human life is lengthening +instead of shortening. + +It is unscientific to say that the infinite God +wrestled with Jacob and got the better of him, put- +ting his thigh out of joint. + +It is unscientific to say that God, in the likeness of +a flame of fire, inhabited a bush. + +It is unscientific to say that a stick could be +changed into a living snake. Living snakes can not +be made out of sticks. There are not the necessary +elements in a stick to make a snake. + +It is not scientific to say that God changed water +into blood. All the elements of blood are not in +water. + +It is unscientific to declare that dust was changed +into lice. + +It is not scientific to say that God caused a thick +darkness over the land of Egypt, and yet allowed it +to be light in the houses of the Jews. + +It is not scientific to say that about seventy people +could, in two hundred and fifteen years increase to +three millions. + +It is not scientific to say that an infinitely good +God would destroy innocent people to get revenge +upon a king. + +258 + +It is not scientific to say that slavery was once +right, that polygamy was once a virtue, and that ex- +termination was mercy. + +It is not scientific to assert that a being of infinite +power and goodness went into partnership with in- +sects,--granted letters of marque and reprisal to +hornets. + +It is unscientific to insist that bread was really +rained from heaven. + +It is not scientific to suppose that an infinite being +spent forty days and nights furnishing Moses with plans +and specifications for a tabernacle, an ark, a mercy seat, +cherubs of gold, a table, four rings, some dishes, some +spoons, one candlestick, several bowls, a few knobs, +seven lamps, some snuffers, a pair of tongs, some cur- +tains, a roof for a tent of rams' skins dyed red, a few +boards, an altar with horns, ash pans, basins and flesh +hooks, shovels and pots and sockets of silver and +ouches of gold and pins of brass--for all of which this +God brought with him patterns from heaven. + +It is not scientific to say that when a man commits +a sin, he can settle with God by killing a sheep. + +It is not scientific to say that a priest, by laying +his hands on the head of a goat, can transfer the sins +of a people to the animal. + +259 + +Was it scientific to endeavor to ascertain whether +a woman was virtuous or not, by compelling her to +drink water mixed with dirt from the floor of the +sanctuary? + +Is it scientific to say that a dry stick budded, +blossomed, and bore almonds; or that the ashes of a +red heifer mixed with water can cleanse us of sin; +or that a good being gave cities into the hands of the +Jews in consideration of their murdering all the in- +habitants? + +Is it scientific to say that an animal saw an angel, +and conversed with a man? + +Is it scientific to imagine that thrusting a spear +through the body of a woman ever stayed a plague? + +Is it scientific to say that a river cut itself in two +and allowed the lower end to run off? + +Is it scientific to assert that seven priests blew +seven rams' horns loud enough to blow down the +walls of a city? + +Is it scientific to say that the sun stood still in the +midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down for +about a whole day, and that the moon also stayed? + +Is it scientifically probable that an angel of the +Lord devoured unleavened cakes and broth with +fire that came out of the end of a stick, as he sat + +260 + +under an oak tree; or that God made known his +will by letting dew fall on wool without wetting the +ground around it; or that an angel of God appeared +to Manoah in the absence of her husband, and that +this angel afterwards went up in a flame of fire, and +as the result of this visit a child was born whose +strength was in his hair? + +Is it scientific to say that the muscle of a man de- +pended upon the length of his locks? + +Is it unscientific to deny that water gushed from a +hollow place in a dry bone? + +Is it evidence of a thoroughly scientific mind to +believe that one man turned over a house so large +that three thousand people were on its roof? + +Is it purely scientific to say that a man was once +fed by the birds of the air, who brought him bread +and meat every morning and evening, and that after- +ward an angel turned cook and prepared two sup- +pers in one night, for the same prophet, who ate +enough to last him forty days and forty nights? + +Is it scientific to say that a river divided because +the water had been struck with a cloak; or that a +man actually went to heaven in a chariot of fire +drawn by horses of fire; or that a being of infinite +mercy would destroy children for laughing at a bald- + +261 + +headed prophet; or curse children and childrens +children with leprosy for a father's fault; or that he +made iron float in water; or that when one corpse +touched another it came to life; or that the sun went +backward in heaven so that the shadow on a sun- +dial went back ten degrees, as a sign that a miserable +barbarian king would get well? + +Is it scientific to say that the earth not only +stopped in its rotary motion, but absolutely turned +the other way,--that its motion was reversed simply +as a sign to a petty king? + +Is it scientific to say that Solomon made gold and +silver at Jerusalem as plentiful as stones, when we +know that there were kings in his day who could +have thrown away the value of the whole of Palestine +without missing the amount? + +Is it scientific to say that Solomon exceeded all +the kings of the earth in glory, when his country +was barren, without roads, when his people were +few, without commerce, without the arts, without the +sciences, without education, without luxuries? + +According to the Bible, as long as Jehovah attended +to the affairs of the Jews, they had nothing but war, +pestilence and famine; after Jehovah abandoned them, +and the Christians ceased, in a measure, to persecute + +262 + +them, the Jews became the most prosperous of people. +Since Jehovah in his anger cast them away, they have +produced painters, sculptors, scientists, statesmen, +composers, soldiers and philosophers. + +It is not scientific to believe that God ever pre- +vented rain, that he ever caused famine, that he ever +sent locusts to devour the wheat and corn, that he +ever relied on pestilence for the government of man- +kind; or that he ever killed children to get even with +their parents. + +It is not scientific to believe that the king of Egypt +invaded Palestine with seventy thousand horsemen +and twelve hundred chariots of war. There was not, +at that time, a road in Palestine over which a chariot +could be driven. + +It is not scientific to believe that in a battle between +Jeroboam and Abijah, the army of Abijah slew in +one day five hundred thousand chosen men. + +It is not scientific to believe that Zerah, the Ethio- +pian, invaded Palestine with a million of men who +were overthrown and destroyed; or that Jehoshaphat +had a standing army of nine hundred and sixty +thousand men. + +It is unscientific to believe that Jehovah advertised +for a liar, as is related in Second Chronicles. + +263 + +It is not scientific to believe that fire refused to +burn, or that water refused to wet. + +It is not scientific to believe in dreams, in visions, +and in miracles. + +It is not scientific to believe that children have +been born without fathers, that the dead have ever +been raised to life, or that people have bodily as- +cended to heaven taking their clothes with them. + +It is not scientific to believe in the supernatural. +Science dwells in the realm of fact, in the realm of +demonstration. Science depends upon human ex- +perience, upon observation, upon reason. + +It is unscientific to say that an innocent man can +be punished in place of a criminal, and for a criminal, +and that the criminal, on account of such punishment, +can be justified. + +It is unscientific to say that a finite sin deserves +infinite punishment. + +It is unscientific to believe that devils can inhabit +human beings, or that they can take possession of +swine, or that the devil could bodily take a man, or +the Son of God, and carry him to the pinnacle of a +temple. + +In short, the foolish, the unreasonable, the false, +the miraculous and the supernatural are unscientific. + +264 + +_Question_. Mr. Talmage gives his reason for +accepting the New Testament, and says: "You +"can trace it right out. Jerome and Eusebius in the +"first century, and Origen in the second century, +"gave lists of the writers of the New Testament. +"These lists correspond with our list of the writers +"of the New Testament, showing that precisely as +"we have it, they had it in the third and fourth cen- +"turies. Where did they get it? From Irenæus. +"Where did he get it? From Polycarp. Where did +"Polycarp get it? From Saint John, who was a per- +"sonal associate of Jesus. The line is just as clear +"as anything ever was clear." How do you under- +stand this matter, and has Mr. Talmage stated the +facts? + +_Answer_. Let us examine first the witnesses pro- +duced by Mr. Talmage. We will also call attention +to the great principle laid down by Mr. Talmage for +the examination of evidence,--that where a witness +is found false in one particular, his entire testimony +must be thrown away. + +Eusebius was born somewhere about two hundred +and seventy years after Christ. After many vicissi- +tudes he became, it is said, the friend of Constantine. +He made an oration in which he extolled the virtues + +265 + +of this murderer, and had the honor of sitting at the +right hand of the man who had shed the blood of his +wife and son. In the great controversy with regard +to the position that Christ should occupy in the Trinity, +he sided with Arius, "and lent himself to the perse- +"cution of the orthodox with Athanasius." He in- +sisted that Jesus Christ was not the same as God, +and that he was not of equal power and glory. Will +Mr. Talmage admit that his witness told the truth in +this? "He would not even call the Son co-eternal +"with God." + +Eusebius must have been an exceedingly truthful +man. He declared that the tracks of Pharaoh's chariots +were in his day visible upon the shores of the Red +Sea; that these tracks had been through all the years +miraculously preserved from the action of wind and +wave, as a supernatural testimony to the fact that +God miraculously overwhelmed Pharaoh and his +hosts. + +Eusebius also relates that when Joseph and Mary +arrived in Eygpt they took up their abode in Hermopolis, + +a city of Thebæus, in which was the superb +temple of Serapis. When Joseph and Mary entered +the temple, not only the great idol, but all the lesser +idols fell down before him. + +266 + +"It is believed by the learned Dr. Lardner, that +"Eusebius was the one guilty of the forgery in the +"passage found in Josephus concerning Christ. Un- +"blushing falsehoods and literary forgeries of the +"vilest character darkened the pages of his historical +"writings." (Waites History.) + +From the same authority I learn that Eusebius +invented an eclipse, and some earthquakes, to agree +with the account of the crucifixion. It is also be- +lieved that Eusebius quoted from works that never +existed, and that he pretended a work had been +written by Porphyry, entitled: "The Philosophy of +"Oracles," and then quoted from it for the purpose +of proving the truth of the Christian religion. + +The fact is, Eusebius was utterly destitute of truth. +He believed, as many still believe, that he could +please God by the fabrication of lies. + +Irenæus lived somewhere about the end of the +second century. "Very little is known of his early +"history, and the accounts given in various biogra- +"phies are for the most part conjectural." The +writings of Irenæus are known to us principally +through Eusebius, and we know the value of his +testimony. + +Now, if we are to take the testimony of Irenæus, + +267 + +why not take it? He says that the ministry of Christ +lasted for twenty years, and that Christ was fifty years +old at the time of his crucifixion. He also insisted +that the "Gospel of Paul" was written by Luke, "a +"statement made to give sanction to the gospel of +"Luke." + +Irenæus insisted that there were four gospels, that +there must be, and "he speaks frequently of these +"gospels, and argues that they should be four in +"number, neither more nor less, because there are +"four universal winds, and four quarters of the +"world;" and he might have added: because +donkeys have four legs. + +These facts can be found in "The History of the +"Christian Religion to A. D. 200," by Charles B. +Waite,--a book that Mr. Talmage ought to read. + +According to Mr. Waite, Irenæus, in the thirty- +third chapter of his fifth book, _Adversus Hæreses_, +cites from Papias the following sayings of Christ: +"The days will come in which vines shall grow +"which shall have ten thousand branches, and on +"each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each twig +"ten thousand shoots, and in each shoot ten thousand +"clusters, and in every one of the clusters ten +"thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed + +268 + +"will give five and twenty metrets of wine." Also +that "one thousand million pounds of clear, pure, fine +"flour will be produced from one grain of wheat." +Irenæus adds that "these things were borne witness +"to by Papias the hearer of John and the companion +"of Polycarp." + +Is it possible that the eternal welfare of a human +being depends upon believing the testimony of Poly- +carp and Irenæus? Are people to be saved or lost +on the reputation of Eusebius? Suppose a man is +firmly convinced that Polycarp knew nothing about +Saint John, and that Saint John knew nothing about +Christ,--what then? Suppose he is convinced that +Eusebius is utterly unworthy of credit,--what then? +Must a man believe statements that he has every +reason to think are false? + +The question arises as to the witnesses named by +Mr. Talmage, whether they were competent to decide +as to the truth or falsehood of the gospels. We have +the right to inquire into their mental traits for the +purpose of giving only due weight to what they have +said. + +Mr. Bronson C. Keeler is the author of a book +called: "A Short History of the Bible." I avail +myself of a few of the facts he has there collected. I + +269 + +find in this book, that Irenæus, Clement and Origen +believed in the fable of the Phoenix, and insisted that +God produced the bird on purpose to prove the +probability of the resurrection of the body. Some +of the early fathers believed that the hyena changed +its sex every year. Others of them gave as a reason +why good people should eat only animals with a +cloven foot, the fact that righteous people lived not +only in this world, but had expectations in the next. +They also believed that insane people were pos- +sessed by devils; that angels ate manna; that some +angels loved the daughters of men and fell; that the +pains of women in childbirth, and the fact that ser- +pents crawl on their bellies, were proofs that the +account of the fall, as given in Genesis, is true; that +the stag renewed its youth by eating poisonous +snakes; that eclipses and comets were signs of God's +anger; that volcanoes were openings into hell; that +demons blighted apples; that a corpse in a cemetery +moved to make room for another corpse to be placed +beside it. Clement of Alexandria believed that hail +storms, tempests and plagues were caused by demons. +He also believed, with Mr. Talmage, that the events +in the life of Abraham were typical and prophetical +of arithmetic and astronomy. + +270 + +Origen, another of the witnesses of Mr. Talmage, +said that the sun, moon and stars were living crea- +tures, endowed with reason and free will, and occa- +sionally inclined to sin. That they had free will, he +proved by quoting from Job; that they were rational +creatures, he inferred from the fact that they moved. +The sun, moon and stars, according to him, were +"subject to vanity," and he believed that they prayed +to God through his only begotten son. + +These intelligent witnesses believed that the blight- +ing of vines and fruit trees, and the disease and de- +struction that came upon animals and men, were all +the work of demons; but that when they had entered +into men, the sign of the cross would drive them out. +They derided the idea that the earth is round, and +one of them said: "About the antipodes also, one +"can neither hear nor speak without laughter. It is +"asserted as something serious that we should be- +"lieve that there are men who have their feet oppo- +"site to ours. The ravings of Anaxagoras are more +"tolerable, who said that snow was black." + +Concerning these early fathers, Professor Davidson, +as quoted by Mr. Keeler, uses the following lan- +guage: "Of the three fathers who contributed +"most to the growth of the canon, Irenæus was + + 271 + +"credulous and blundering; Tertullian passionate +"and one-sided; and Clement of Alexandria, im- +"bued with the treasures of Greek wisdom, was +"mainly occupied with ecclesiastical ethics. Their +"assertions show both ignorance and exaggeration." +These early fathers relied upon by Mr. Talmage, +quoted from books now regarded as apocryphal-- +books that have been thrown away by the church +and are no longer considered as of the slightest +authority. Upon this subject I again quote Mr. +Keeler: "Clement quoted the 'Gospel according to +"'the Hebrews,' which is now thrown away by the +"church; he also quoted from the Sibylline books +"and the Pentateuch in the same sentence. Origen +"frequently cited the Gospel of the Hebrews. Jerome +"did the same, and Clement believed in the 'Gospel +"'according to the Egyptians.' The Shepherd of +"Hermas, a book in high repute in the early church, +"and one which distinctly claims to have been +"inspired, was quoted by Irenæus as Scripture. +"Clement of Alexandria said it was a divine revela- +"tion. Origen said it was divinely inspired, and +"quoted it as Holy Scripture at the same time that +"he cited the Psalms and Epistles of Paul. Jerome +"quoted the 'Wisdom of Jesus, the Son of Sirach,' + +272 + +"as divine Scripture. Origen quotes the 'Wisdom +"of Solomon' as the 'Word of God' and 'the +"'words of Christ himself.' Eusebius of Cæsarea +"cites it as a * Divine Oracle,' and St. Chrysostom +"used it as Scripture. So Eusebius quotes the +"thirteenth chapter of Daniel as Scripture, but as a +"matter of fact, Daniel has not a thirteenth chapter,-- +"the church has taken it away. Clement spoke of +"the writer of the fourth book of Esdras as a prophet; +"he thought Baruch as much the word of God as +"any other book, and he quotes it as divine Scripture. +"Clement cites Barnabas as an apostle. Origen +"quotes from the Epistle of Barnabas, calls it 'Holy +" 'Scripture,' and places it on a level with the Psalms +"and the Epistles of Paul; and Clement of Alexan- +"dria believed in the 'Epistle of Barnabas,' and the +"'Revelation, of Peter,' and wrote comments upon +"these holy books." + +Nothing can exceed the credulity of the early +fathers, unless it may be their ignorance. They be- +lieved everything that was miraculous. They believed +everything except the truth. Anything that really +happened was considered of no importance by them. +They looked for wonders, miracles, and monstrous +things, and--generally found them. They revelled + +273 + +in the misshapen and the repulsive. They did not +think it wrong to swear falsely in a good cause. +They interpolated, forged, and changed the records to +suit themselves, for the sake of Christ. They quoted +from persons who never wrote. They misrepresented +those who had written, and their evidence is abso- +lutely worthless. They were ignorant, credulous, +mendacious, fanatical, pious, unreasonable, bigoted, +hypocritical, and for the most part, insane. Read the +book of Revelation, and you will agree with me that +nothing that ever emanated from a madhouse can +more than equal it for incoherence. Most of the +writings of the early fathers are of the same kind. + +As to Saint John, the real truth is, that we know +nothing certainly of him. We do not know that he +ever lived. + +We know nothing certainly of Jesus Christ. We +know nothing of his infancy, nothing of his youth, +and we are not sure that such a person ever existed. + +We know nothing of Polycarp. We do not know +where he was born, or where, or how he died. We +know nothing for certain about Irenæus. All the +names quoted by Mr. Talmage as his witnesses +are surrounded by clouds and doubts, by mist and +darkness. We only know that many of their + +274 + +statements are false, and do not know that any of +them are true. + +_Question_. What do you think of the following state- +ment by Mr. Talmage: "Oh, I have to tell you that no +"man ever died for a lie cheerfully and triumphantly"? + +_Answer_. There was a time when men "cheerfully +"and triumphantly died" in defence of the doctrine +of the "real presence" of God in the wafer and wine. +Does Mr. Talmage believe in the doctrine of "tran- +"substantiation"? Yet hundreds have died "cheer- +"fully and triumphantly" for it. Men have died for +the idea that baptism by immersion is the only +scriptural baptism. Did they die for a lie? If not, +is Mr. Talmage a Baptist? + +Giordano Bruno was an atheist, yet he perished at +the stake rather than retract his opinions. He did +not expect to be welcomed by angels and by God. +He did not look for a crown of glory. He expected +simply death and eternal extinction. Does the fact +that he died for that belief prove its truth? + +Thousands upon thousands have died in defence of +the religion of Mohammed. Was Mohammed an im- +postor? Thousands have welcomed death in defence +of the doctrines of Buddha. Is Buddhism true? + +275 + +So I might make a tour of the world, and of all +ages of human history, and find that millions and +millions have died "cheerfully and triumphantly" in +defence of their opinions. There is not the slightest +truth in Mr. Talmage's statement. + +A little while ago, a man shot at the Czar of Russia. +On the day of his execution he was asked if he +wished religious consolation. He replied that he +believed in no religion. What did that prove? It +proved only the man's honesty of opinion. All the +martyrs in the world cannot change, never did +change, a falsehood into a truth, nor a truth into +a falsehood. Martyrdom proves nothing but the +sincerity of the martyr and the cruelty and mean- +ness of his murderers. Thousands and thousands of +people have imagined that they knew things, that +they were certain, and have died rather than retract +their honest beliefs. + +Mr. Talmage now says that he knows all about the +Old Testament, that the prophecies were fulfilled, +and yet he does not know when the prophecies were +made--whether they were made before or after the +fact. He does not know whether the destruction of +Babylon was told before it happened, or after. He +knows nothing upon the subject. He does not know + +276 + +who made the pretended prophecies. He does not +know that Isaiah, or Jeremiah, or Habakkuk, or +Hosea ever lived in this world. He does not know +who wrote a single book of the Old Testament. He +knows nothing on the subject. He believes in the +inspiration of the Old Testament because ancient +cities finally fell into decay--were overrun and de- +stroyed by enemies, and he accounts for the fact that +the Jew does not lose his nationality by saying that +the Old Testament is true. + +The Jews have been persecuted by the Christians, +and they are still persecuted by them; and Mr. Tal- +mage seems to think that this persecution was a part +of Gods plan, that the Jews might, by persecution, +be prevented from mingling with other nationalities, +and so might stand, through the instrumentality of +perpetual hate and cruelty, the suffering witnesses of +the divine truth of the Bible. + +The Jews do not testify to the truth of the Bible, +but to the barbarism and inhumanity of Christians-- +to the meanness and hatred of what we are pleased +to call the "civilized world." They testify to the fact +that nothing so hardens the human heart as religion. + +There is no prophecy in the Old Testament fore- +telling the coming of Jesus Christ. There is not one + +277 + +word in the Old Testament referring to him in any +way--not one word. The only way to prove this +is to take your Bible, and wherever you find these +words: "That it might be fulfilled," and "which +"was spoken," turn to the Old Testament and +find what was written, and you will see that it had +not the slightest possible reference to the thing re- +counted in the New Testament--not the slightest. + +Let us take some of the prophecies of the Bible, +and see how plain they are, and how beautiful they +are. Let us see whether any human being can tell +whether they have ever been fulfilled or not. + +Here is a vision of Ezekiel: "I looked, and be- +"hold a whirlwind came out of the north, a great +"cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness +"was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the +"color of amber, out of the midst of the fire. Also +"out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four +"living creatures. And this was their appearance; +"they had the likeness of a man. And every one +"had four faces, and every one had four wings. +"And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of +"their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they +"sparkled like the color of burnished brass. And +"they had the hands of a man under their wings on + +278 + +"their four sides; and they four had their faces and +"their wings. Their wings were joined one to +"another; they turned not when-they went; they +"went every one straight forward. As for the like- +"ness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, +"and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they +"four had the face of an ox on the left side; they +"four also had the face of an eagle. + +"Thus were their faces: and their wings were +"stretched upward; two wings of every one were +"joined one to another, and two covered their bodies. +"And they went every one straight forward: whither +"the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not +"when they went. + +"As for the likeness of the living creatures, their +"appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like +"the appearance of lamps: it went up and down +"among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, +"and out of the fire went forth lightning. And the +"living creatures ran and returned as the appearance +"of a flash of lightning. + +"Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one +"wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with +"his four faces. The appearance of the wheels and +"their work was like unto the color of a beryl: and + +279 + +"they four had one likeness: and their appearance +"and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle +"of a wheel. When they went, they went upon +"their four sides: and they turned not when they +"went. As for their rings, they were so high that +"they were dreadful; and their rings were full of +"eyes round about them four. And when the living +"creatures went, the wheels went by them: and +"when the living creatures were lifted up from the +"earth, the wheels were lifted up. Whithersoever +"the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their +"spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over +"against them: for the spirit of the living creature +"was in the wheels. When those went, these went; +"and when those stood, these stood; and when those +"were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were +"lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the +"living creature was in the wheels. And the like- +"ness of the firmament upon the heads of the living +"creature was as the color of the terrible crystal, +"stretched forth over their heads above. And under +"the firmament were their wings straight, the one +"toward the other; every one had two, which +"covered on this side, and every one had two, +"which covered on that side, their bodies." + +280 + +Is such a vision a prophecy? Is it calculated +to convey the slightest information? If so, what? + +So, the following vision of the prophet Daniel is +exceedingly important and instructive: + +"Daniel spake and said: I saw in my vision by +"night, and behold, the four winds of the heaven +"strove upon the great sea. And four great beasts +"came up from the sea, diverse one from another. +"The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: +"I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it +"was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon +"the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to +"it. And behold another beast, a second, like to a +"bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had +"three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of +"it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much +"flesh. + +"After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, +"which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; +"the beast had also four heads, and dominion was +"given to it. + +"After this I saw in the night visions, and behold +"a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong ex- +"ceedingly; and it had great iron teeth; it devoured +"and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with + +281 + +"the feet of it; and it was diverse from all the beasts +"that were before it, and it had ten horns. I con- +"sidered the horns, and, behold, there came up +"among them another little horn, before whom +"there were three of the first horns plucked up by +"the roots: and behold, in this horn were eyes like +"the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great +"things." + +I have no doubt that this prophecy has been liter- +ally fulfilled, but I am not at present in condition to +give the time, place, or circumstances. + +A few moments ago, my attention was called to +the following extract from _The New York Herald_ of +the thirteenth of March, instant: + +"At the Fifth Avenue Baptist Church, Dr. Armi- +"tage took as his text, 'A wheel in the middle of a +"'wheel'--Ezekiel, i., 16. Here, said the preacher, +"are three distinct visions in one--the living crea- +"tures, the moving wheels and the fiery throne. We +"have time only to stop the wheels of this mystic +"chariot of Jehovah, that we may hold holy converse +"with Him who rides upon the wings of the wind. +"In this vision of the prophet we have a minute and +"amplified account of these magnificent symbols or +"hieroglyphics, this wondrous machinery which de- + +282 + +"notes immense attributes and agencies and voli- +"tions, passing their awful and mysterious course of +"power and intelligence in revolution after revolu- +"tion of the emblematical mechanism, in steady and +"harmonious advancement to the object after which +"they are reaching. We are compelled to look +"upon the whole as symbolical of that tender and +"endearing providence of which Jesus spoke when +"He said, 'The very hairs of your head are num- +"* bered.'" + +Certainly, an ordinary person, not having been +illuminated by the spirit of prophecy, would never +have even dreamed that there was the slightest re- +ference in Ezekiel's vision to anything like counting +hairs. As a commentator, the Rev. Dr. Armitage +has no equal; and, in my judgment, no rival. He +has placed himself beyond the reach of ridicule. It +is impossible to say anything about his sermon as +laughable as his sermon. + +_Question_. Have you no confidence in any pro- +phecies? Do you take the ground that there never +has been a human being who could predict the +future? + +_Answer_. I admit that a man of average intelli- + +283 + +gence knows that a certain course, when pursued +long enough, will bring national disaster, and it is +perfectly safe to predict the downfall of any and +every country in the world. In my judgment, +nations, like individuals, have an average life. +Every nation is mortal. An immortal nation cannot +be constructed of mortal individuals. A nation has +a reason for existing, and that reason sustains the +same relation to the nation that the acorn does to +the oak. The nation will attain its growth--other +things being equal. It will reach its manhood and +its prime, but it will sink into old age, and at last +must die. Probably, in a few thousand years, men +will be able to calculate the average life of nations, +as they now calculate the average life of persons. +There has been no period since the morning of his- +tory until now, that men did not know of dead and +dying nations. There has always been a national +cemetery. Poland is dead, Turkey is dying. In +every nation are the seeds of dissolution. Not only +nations die, but races of men. A nation is born, +becomes powerful, luxurious, at last grows weak, is +overcome, dies, and another takes its place, In this +way civilization and barbarism, like day and night, +alternate through all of history's years. + +284 + +In every nation there are at least two classes of +men: First, the enthusiastic, the patriotic, who be- +lieve that the nation will live forever,--that its flag +will float while the earth has air; Second, the owls +and ravens and croakers, who are always predicting +disaster, defeat, and death. To the last class belong +the Jeremiahs, Ezekiels, and Isaiahs of the Jews. +They were always predicting the downfall of Jeru- +salem. They revelled in defeat and captivity. They +loved to paint the horrors of famine and war. For +the most part, they were envious, hateful, misan- +thropic and unjust. + +There seems to have been a war between church +and state. The prophets were endeavoring to pre- +serve the ecclesiastical power. Every king who would +listen to them, was chosen of God. He instantly +became the model of virtue, and the prophets assured +him that he was in the keeping of Jehovah. But if +the king had a mind of his own, the prophets im- +mediately called down upon him all the curses of +heaven, and predicted the speedy destruction of his +kingdom. + +If our own country should be divided, if an empire +should rise upon the ruins of the Republic, it would +be very easy to find that hundreds and thousands of + +285 + +people had foretold that very thing. If you will read +the political speeches of the last twenty-two years, +you will find prophecies to fit any possible future +state of affairs in our country. No matter what +happens, you will find that somebody predicted it. +If the city of London should lose her trade, if the +Parliament house should become the abode of moles +and bats, if "the New Zealander should sit upon the +"ruins of London Bridge," all these things would be +simply the fulfillment of prophecy. The fall of every +nation under the sun has been predicted by hundreds +and thousands of people. + +The prophecies of the Old Testament can be made +to fit anything that may happen, or that may not +happen. They will apply to the death of a king, or +to the destruction of a people,--to the loss of com- +merce, or the discovery of a continent. Each pro- +phecy is a jugglery of words, of figures, of symbols, +so put together, so used, so interpreted, that they +can mean anything, everything, or nothing. + +_Question_. Do you see anything "prophetic" in +the fate of the Jewish people themselves? Do you +think that God made the Jewish people wanderers, so +that they might be perpetual witnesses to the truth +of the Scriptures? + +286 + +_Answer_. I cannot believe that an infinitely good +God would make anybody a wanderer. Neither can +I believe that he would keep millions of people with- +out country and without home, and allow them to be +persecuted for thousands of years, simply that they +might be used as witnesses. Nothing could be more +absurdly cruel than this. + +The Christians justify their treatment of the Jews +on the ground that they are simply fulfilling prophecy. +The Jews have suffered because of the horrid story +that their ancestors crucified the Son of God. Chris- +tianity, coming into power, looked with horror upon +the Jews, who denied the truth of the gospel. Each +Jew was regarded as a dangerous witness against +Christianity. The early Christians saw how neces- +sary it was that the people who lived in Jerusalem +at the time of Christ should be convinced that +he was God, and should testify to the miracles he +wrought. Whenever a Jew denied it, the Christian +was filled with malignity and hatred, and immediately +excited the prejudice of other Christians against the +man simply because he was a Jew. They forgot, in +their general hatred, that Mary, the mother of Christ, +was a Jewess; that Christ himself was of Jewish +blood; and with an inconsistency of which, of all + +287 + +religions, Christianity alone could have been guilty, +the Jew became an object of especial hatred and +aversion. + +When we remember that Christianity pretends to +be a religion of love and kindness, of charity and for- +giveness, must not every intelligent man be shocked +by the persecution of the Jews? Even now, in learned +and cultivated Germany, the Jew is treated as though +he were a wild beast. The reputation of this great +people has been stained by a persecution spring- +ing only from ignorance and barbarian prejudice. +So in Russia, the Christians are anxious to shed +every drop of Jewish blood, and thousands are to-day +fleeing from their homes to seek a refuge from Chris- +tian hate. And Mr. Talmage believes that all these +persecutions are kept up by the perpetual intervention +of God, in order that the homeless wanderers of the +seed of Abraham may testify to the truth of the Old +and New Testaments. He thinks that every burning +Jewish home sheds light upon the gospel,--that +every gash in Jewish flesh cries out in favor of the +Bible,--that every violated Jewish maiden shows the +interest that God still takes in the preservation of +his Holy Word. + +I am endeavoring to do away with religious + +288 + +prejudice. I wish to substitute humanity for super- +stition, the love of our fellow-men, for the fear of +God. In the place of ignorant worship, let us put +good deeds. We should be great enough and grand +enough to know that the rights of the Jew are pre- +cisely the same as our own. We cannot trample +upon their rights, without endangering our own; and +no man who will take liberty from another, is great +enough to enjoy liberty himself. + +Day by day Christians are laying the foundation +of future persecution. In every Sunday school little +children are taught that Jews killed the God of this +universe. Their little hearts are filled with hatred +against the Jewish people. They are taught as a +part of the creed to despise the descendants of the +only people with whom God is ever said to have had +any conversation whatever. + +When we take into consideration what the Jewish +people have suffered, it is amazing that every one of +them does not hate with all his heart and soul and +strength the entire Christian world. But in spite of +the persecutions they have endured, they are to-day, +where they are permitted to enjoy reasonable liberty, +the most prosperous people on the globe. The idea +that their condition shows, or tends to show, that + +289 + +upon them abides the wrath of Jehovah, cannot be +substantiated by the facts. + +The Jews to-day control the commerce of the +world. They control the money of the world. It is +for them to say whether nations shall or shall not go +to war. They are the people of whom nations borrow +money. To their offices kings come with their hats +in their hands. Emperors beg them to discount their +notes. Is all this a consequence of the wrath of +God? + +We find upon our streets no Jewish beggars. It is +a rare sight to find one of these people standing as +a criminal before a court. They do not fill our alms- +houses, nor our penitentiaries, nor our jails. In- +tellectually and morally they are the equal of any +people. They have become illustrious in every de- +partment of art and science. The old cry against +them is at last perceived to be ignorant. Only a few +years ago, Christians would rob a Jew, strip him of +his possessions, steal his money, declare him an out- +cast, and drive him forth. Then they would point +to him as a fulfillment of prophecy. + +If you wish to see the difference between some +Jews and some Christians, compare the addresses of +Felix Adler with the sermons of Mr. Talmage. + +290 + +I cannot convince myself that an infinitely good +and wise God holds a Jewish babe in the cradle of +to-day responsible for the crimes of Caiaphas the +high priest. I hardly think that an infinitely good +being would pursue this little babe through all its life +simply to get revenge on those who died two thou- +sand years ago. An infinite being ought certainly to +know that the child is not to blame; and an infinite +being who does not know this, is not entitled to the +love or adoration of any honest man. + +There is a strange inconsistency in what Mr. Tal- +mage says. For instance, he finds great fault with +me because I do not agree with the religious ideas +of my father; and he finds fault equally with the +Jews who do. The Jews who were true to the re- +ligion of their fathers, according to Mr. Talmage, +have been made a by-word and a hissing and a re- +proach among all nations, and only those Jews were +fortunate and blest who abandoned the religion of +their fathers. The real reason for this inconsistency +is this: Mr. Talmage really thinks that a man can +believe as he wishes. He imagines that evidence de- +pends simply upon volition; consequently, he holds +every one responsible for his belief. Being satisfied +that he has the exact truth in this matter, he meas- + +291 + +ures all other people by his standard, and if they +fail by that measurement, he holds them personally +responsible, and believes that his God does the same. +If Mr. Talmage had been born in Turkey, he would +in all probability have been a Mohammedan, and +would now be denouncing some man who had denied +the inspiration of the Koran, as the "champion blas- +"phemer" of Constantinople. Certainly he would +have been, had his parents been Mohammedans; +because, according to his doctrine, he would have +been utterly lacking in respect and love for his father +and mother had he failed to perpetuate their errors. +So, had he been born in Utah, of Mormon parents, +he would now have been a defender of polygamy. +He would not "run the ploughshare of contempt +"through the graves of his parents," by taking the +ground that polygamy is wrong. + +I presume that all of Mr. Talmage's forefathers +were not Presbyterians. There must have been +a time when one of his progenitors left the faith of +his father, and joined the Presbyterian Church. Ac- +cording to the reasoning of Mr. Talmage, that particular +progenitor was an exceedingly bad man; but had it +not been for the crime of that bad man, Mr. Talmage +might not now have been on the road to heaven. + +292 + +I hardly think that all the inventors, the thinkers, +the philosophers, the discoverers, dishonored their +parents. Fathers and mothers have been made +immortal by such sons. And yet these sons demon- +strated the errors of their parents. A good father +wishes to be excelled by his children. + + + + +SIXTH INTERVIEW. + +_It is a contradiction in terms and ideas to call +anything a revelation that comes to us at second- +hand, either verbally or in writing. Revelation is +necessarily limited to the first communication-- +after this, it is only an account of something +which that person says was a revelation made to +him; and though he may find himself obliged to +believe it, it cannot be incumbent on me to +believe it in the same manner; for it was not a +revelation made to me, and I have only his word +for it that it was made to him.--Thomas Paine._ + +_Question_. What do you think of the argu- +ments presented by Mr. Talmage in favor of +the inspiration of the Bible? + +_Answer_. Mr. Talmage takes the ground that +there are more copies of the Bible than of any +other book, and that consequently it must be in- +spired. + +It seems to me that this kind of reasoning proves +entirely too much. If the Bible is the inspired word +of God, it was certainly just as true when there was +only one copy, as it is to-day; and the facts con- +tained in it were just as true before they were + +296 + +written, as afterwards. We all know that it is a fact +in human nature, that a man can tell a falsehood so +often that he finally believes it himself; but I never +suspected, until now, that a mistake could be printed +enough times to make it true. + +There may have been a time, and probably there +was, when there were more copies of the Koran +than of the Bible. When most Christians were ut- +terly ignorant, thousands of Moors were educated; +and it is well known that the arts and sciences +flourished in Mohammedan countries in a far greater +degree than in Christian. Now, at that time, it may +be that there were more copies of the Koran than of +the Bible. If some enterprising Mohammedan had +only seen the force of such a fact, he might have +established the inspiration of the Koran beyond +a doubt; or, if it had been found by actual count that +the Koran was a little behind, a few years of in- +dustry spent in the multiplication of copies, might +have furnished the evidence of its inspiration. + +Is it not simply amazing that a doctor of divinity, +a Presbyterian clergyman, in this day and age, should +seriously rely upon the number of copies of the Bible +to substantiate the inspiration of that book? Is it +possible to conceive of anything more fig-leaflessly + +297 + +absurd? If there is anything at all in this argument, +it is, that all books are true in proportion to the +number of copies that exist. Of course, the same +rule will work with newspapers; so that the news- +paper having the largest circulation can consistently +claim infallibility. Suppose that an exceedingly absurd +statement should appear in _The New York Herald_, +and some one should denounce it as utterly without +any foundation in fact or probability; what would +Mr. Talmage think if the editor of the Herald, as an +evidence of the truth of the statement, should rely +on the fact that his paper had the largest circulation +of any in the city? One would think that the whole +church had acted upon the theory that a falsehood re- +peated often enough was as good as the truth. + +Another evidence brought forward by the reverend +gentleman to prove the inspiration of the Scriptures, +is the assertion that if Congress should undertake to +pass a law to take the Bible from the people, thirty, +millions would rise in defence of that book. + +This argument also seems to me to prove too much, +and as a consequence, to prove nothing. If Con- +gress should pass a law prohibiting the reading of +Shakespeare, every American would rise in defence +of his right to read the works of the greatest man + +298 + +this world has known. Still, that would not even +tend to show that Shakespeare was inspired. The +fact is, the American people would not allow Con- +gress to pass a law preventing them from reading +any good book. Such action would not prove the +book to be inspired; it would prove that the American +people believe in liberty. + +There are millions of people in Turkey who would +peril their lives in defence of the Koran. A fact like +this does not prove the truth of the Koran; it simply +proves what Mohammedans think of that book, and +what they are willing to do for its preservation. + +It can not be too often repeated, that martyrdom +does not prove the truth of the thing for which the +martyr dies; it only proves the sincerity of the martyr +and the cruelty of his murderers. No matter how +many people regard the Bible as inspired,--that fact +furnishes no evidence that it is inspired. Just as many +people have regarded other books as inspired; just as +many millions have been deluded about the inspiration +of books ages and ages before Christianity was born. + +The simple belief of one man, or of millions of men, +is no evidence to another. Evidence must be based, +not upon the belief of other people, but upon facts. +A believer may state the facts upon which his belief + +299 + +is founded, and the person to whom he states them +gives them the weight that according to the con- +struction and constitution of his mind he must. But +simple, bare belief is not testimony. We should build +upon facts, not upon beliefs of others, nor upon the +shifting sands of public opinion. So much for this +argument. + +The next point made by the reverend gentleman +is, that an infidel cannot be elected to any office in +the United States, in any county, precinct, or ward. + +For the sake of the argument, let us admit that this +is true. What does it prove? There was a time +when no Protestant could have been elected to any +office. What did that prove? There was a time +when no Presbyterian could have been chosen to fill +any public station. What did that prove? The +same may be said of the members of each religious +denomination. What does that prove? + +Mr. Talmage says that Christianity must be true, +because an infidel cannot be elected to office. Now, +suppose that enough infidels should happen to settle +in one precinct to elect one of their own number to +office; would that prove that Christianity was not +true in that precinct? There was a time when no +man could have been elected to any office, who in- + +300 + +sisted on the rotundity of the earth; what did that +prove? There was a time when no man who denied +the existence of witches, wizards, spooks and devils, +could hold any position of honor; what did that +prove? There was a time when an abolitionist could +not be elected to office in any State in this Union; +what did that prove? There was a time when they +were not allowed to express their honest thoughts; +what does that prove? There was a time when a +Quaker could not have been elected to any office; +there was a time in the history of this country when +but few of them were allowed to live; what does +that prove? Is it necessary, in order to ascertain the +truth of Christianity, to look over the election re- +turns? Is "inspiration" a question to be settled by +the ballot? I admit that it was once, in the first +place, settled that way. I admit that books were +voted in and voted out, and that the Bible was finally +formed in accordance with a vote; but does Mr. +Talmage insist that the question is not still open? +Does he not know, that a fact cannot by any possi- +bility be affected by opinion? We make laws for +the whole people, by the whole people. We agree +that a majority shall rule, but nobody ever pretended +that a question of taste could be settled by an appeal + +301 + +to majorities, or that a question of logic could be +affected by numbers. In the world of thought, each +man is an absolute monarch, each brain is a king- +dom, that cannot be invaded even by the tyranny of +majorities. + +No man can avoid the intellectual responsibility of +deciding for himself. + +Suppose that the Christian religion had been put +to vote in Jerusalem? Suppose that the doctrine of +the "fall" had been settled in Athens, by an appeal +to the people, would Mr. Talmage have been willing +to abide by their decision? If he settles the inspira- +tion of the Bible by a popular vote, he must settle the +meaning of the Bible by the same means. There are +more Methodists than Presbyterians--why does the +gentleman remain a Presbyterian? There are more +Buddhists than Christians--why does he vote against +majorities? He will remember that Christianity was +once settled by a popular vote--that the divinity of +Christ was submitted to the people, and the people +said: "Crucify him!" + +The next, and about the strongest, argument Mr. +Talmage makes is, that I am an infidel because I was +defeated for Governor of Illinois. + +When put in plain English, his statement is this: + +302 + +that I was defeated because I was an infidel, and that +I am an infidel because I was defeated. This, I be- +lieve, is called reasoning in a circle. The truth is, +that a good many people did object to me because I +was an infidel, and the probability is, that if I had +denied being an infidel, I might have obtained an +office. The wonderful part is, that any Christian +should deride me because I preferred honor to po- +litical success. He who dishonors himself for the +sake of being honored by others, will find that two +mistakes have been made--one by himself, and the +other, by the people. + +I presume that Mr.Talmage really thinks that I was +extremely foolish to avow my real opinions. After +all, men are apt to judge others somewhat by them- +selves. According to him, I made the mistake of +preserving my manhood and losing an office. Now, +if I had in fact been an infidel, and had denied it, for +the sake of position, then I admit that every Christian +might have pointed at me the finger of contempt. +But I was an infidel, and admitted it. Surely, I should +not be held in contempt by Christians for having +made the admission. I was not a believer in the +Bible, and I said so. I was not a Christian, and I said +so. I was not willing to receive the support of any + +303 + +man under a false impression. I thought it better to +be honestly beaten, than to dishonestly succeed. +According to the ethics of Mr. Talmage I made a +mistake, and this mistake is brought forward as +another evidence of the inspiration of the Scriptures. +If I had only been elected Governor of Illinois,--that +is to say, if I had been a successful hypocrite, I might +now be basking in the sunshine of this gentleman's +respect. I preferred to tell the truth--to be an +honest man,--and I have never regretted the course +I pursued. + +There are many men now in office who, had they +pursued a nobler course, would be private citizens. +Nominally, they are Christians; actually, they are +nothing; and this is the combination that generally +insures political success. + +Mr. Talmage is exceedingly proud of the fact that +Christians will not vote for infidels. In other words, +he does not believe that in our Government the +church has been absolutely divorced from the state. +He believes that it is still the Christian's duty to +make the religious test. Probably he wishes to get +his God into the Constitution. My position is this: + +Religion is an individual matter--a something for +each individual to settle for himself, and with which + +304 + +no other human being has any concern, provided the +religion of each human being allows liberty to every +other. When called upon to vote for men to fill the +offices of this country, I do not inquire as to the re- +ligion of the candidates. It is none of my business. +I ask the questions asked by Jefferson: "Is he +"honest; is he capable?" It makes no difference to +me, if he is willing that others should be free, what +creed he may profess. The moment I inquire into his +religious belief, I found a little inquisition of my own; +I repeat, in a small way, the errors of the past, and +reproduce, in so far as I am capable, the infamy of +the ignorant orthodox years. + +Mr. Talmage will accept my thanks for his frankness. +I now know what controls a Presbyterian when he +casts his vote. He cares nothing for the capacity, +nothing for the fitness, of the candidate to discharge +the duties of the office to which he aspires; he +simply asks: Is he a Presbyterian, is he a Protestant, +does he believe our creed? and then, no matter how +ignorant he may be, how utterly unfit, he receives the +Presbyterian vote. According to Mr. Talmage, he +would vote for a Catholic who, if he had the power, +would destroy all liberty of conscience, rather than +vote for an infidel who, had he the power, would + +305 + +destroy all the religious tyranny of the world, and +allow every human being to think for himself, and +to worship God, or not, as and how he pleased. + +Mr. Talmage makes the serious mistake of placing +the Bible above the laws and Constitution of his +country. He places Jehovah above humanity. Such +men are not entirely safe citizens of any republic. +And yet, I am in favor of giving to such men all the +liberty I ask for myself, trusting to education and the +spirit of progress to overcome any injury they may +do, or seek to do. + +When this country was founded, when the Con- +stitution was adopted, the churches agreed to let the +State alone. They agreed that all citizens should have +equal civil rights. Nothing could be more dangerous +to the existence of this Republic than to introduce +religion into politics. The American theory is, that +governments are founded, not by gods, but by men, +and that the right to govern does not come from +God, but "from the consent of the governed." Our +fathers concluded that the people were sufficiently +intelligent to take care of themselves--to make good +laws and to execute them. Prior to that time, all +authority was supposed to come from the clouds. +Kings were set upon thrones by God, and it was the + +306 + +business of the people simply to submit. In all really +civilized countries, that doctrine has been abandoned. +The source of political power is here, not in heaven. +We are willing that those in heaven should control +affairs there; we are willing that the angels should +have a government to suit themselves; but while we +live here, and while our interests are upon this earth, +we propose to make and execute our own laws. + +If the doctrine of Mr. Talmage is the true doctrine, +if no man should be voted for unless he is a Christian, +then no man should vote unless he is a Christian. It +will not do to say that sinners may vote, that an infidel +may be the repository of political power, but must not +be voted for. A decent Christian who is not willing +that an infidel should be elected to an office, would +not be willing to be elected to an office by infidel +votes. If infidels are too bad to be voted for, they +are certainly not good enough to vote, and no +Christian should be willing to represent such an +infamous constituency. + +If the political theory of Mr. Talmage is carried +out, of course the question will arise in a little while, +What is a Christian? It will then be necessary to +write a creed to be subscribed by every person before +he is fit to vote or to be voted for. This of course + +307 + +must be done by the State, and must be settled, +under our form of government, by a majority vote. +Is Mr. Talmage willing that the question, What is +Christianity? should be so settled? Will he pledge +himself in advance to subscribe to such a creed? Of +course he will not. He will insist that he has the +right to read the Bible for himself, and that he must +be bound by his own conscience. In this he would +be right. If he has the right to read the Bible for +himself, so have I. If he is to be bound by his con- +science, so am I. If he honestly believes the Bible to +be true, he must say so, in order to preserve his man- +hood; and if I honestly believe it to be uninspired,-- +filled with mistakes,--I must say so, or lose my man- +hood. How infamous I would be should I endeavor +to deprive him of his vote, or of his right to be voted +for, because he had been true to his conscience! And +how infamous he is to try to deprive me of the right +to vote, or to be voted for, because I am true to my +conscience! + +When we were engaged in civil war, did Mr. Tal- +mage object to any man's enlisting in the ranks who +was not a Christian? Was he willing, at that time, +that sinners should vote to keep our flag in heaven? +Was he willing that the "unconverted" should cover + +308 + +the fields of victory with their corpses, that this nation +might not die? At the same time, Mr. Talmage +knew that every "unconverted" soldier killed, went +down to eternal fire. Does Mr. Talmage believe that +it is the duty of a man to fight for a government in +which he has no rights? Is the man who shoulders +his musket in the defence of human freedom good +enough to cast a ballot? There is in the heart of this +priest the safne hatred of real liberty that drew the +sword of persecution, that built dungeons, that forged +chains and made instruments of torture. + +Nobody, with the exception of priests, would be +willing to trust the liberties of this country in the +hands of any church. In order to show the political +estimation in which the clergy are held, in order to +show the confidence the people at large have in the +sincerity and wisdom of the clergy, it is sufficient to +state, that no priest, no bishop, could by any possi- +bility be elected President of the United States. No +party could carry that load. A fear would fall upon +the mind and heart of every honest man that this +country was about to drift back to the Middle Ages, +and that the old battles were to be refought. If the +bishop running for President was of the Methodist +Church, every other church would oppose him. If + +309 + +he was a Catholic, the Protestants would as a body +combine against him. Why? The churches have +no confidence in each other. Why? Because they +are acquainted with each other. + +As a matter of fact, the infidel has a thousand +times more reason to vote against the Christian, +than the Christian has to vote against the infidel. +The Christian believes in a book superior to the +Constitution--superior to all Constitutions and all +laws. The infidel believes that the Constitution and +laws are superior to any book. He is not controlled +by any power beyond the seas or above the clouds. +He does not receive his orders from Rome, or Sinai. +He receives them from his fellow-citizens, legally and +constitutionally expressed. The Christian believes in +a power greater than man, to which, upon the peril +of eternal pain, he must bow. His allegiance, to say +the best of it, is divided. The Christian puts the for- +tune of his own soul over and above the temporal +welfare of the entire world; the infidel puts the good +of mankind here and now, beyond and over all. + +There was a time in New England when only +church members were allowed to vote, and it may be +instructive to state the fact that during that time +Quakers were hanged, women were stripped, tied to + +310 + +carts, and whipped from town to town, and their +babes sold into slavery, or exchanged for rum. Now +in that same country, thousands and thousands of +infidels vote, and yet the laws are nearer just, women +are not whipped and children are not sold. + +If all the convicts in all the penitentiaries of the +United States could be transported to some island in +the sea, and there allowed to make a government for +themselves, they would pass better laws than John +Calvin did in Geneva. They would have clearer and +better views of the rights of men, than unconvicted +Christians used to have. I do not say that these +convicts are better people, but I do say that, in my +judgment, they would make better laws. They cer- +tainly could not make worse. + +If these convicts were taken from the prisons of +the United States, they would not dream of uniting +church and state. They would have no religious +test. They would allow every man to vote and to be +voted for, no matter what his religious views might +be. They would not dream of whipping Quakers, of +burning Unitarians, of imprisoning or burning Uni- +versalists or infidels. They would allow all the people +to guess for themselves. Some of these convicts, of +course, would believe in the old ideas, and would +insist upon the suppression of free thought. Those +coming from Delaware would probably repeat with +great gusto the opinions of Justice Comegys, and +insist that the whipping-post was the handmaid of +Christianity. + +It would be hard to conceive of a much worse +government than that founded by the Puritans. +They took the Bible for the foundation of their +political structure. They copied the laws given to +Moses from Sinai, and the result was one of the +worst governments that ever disgraced this world. +They believed the Old Testament to be inspired. +They believed that Jehovah made laws for all people +and for all time. They had not learned the hypoc- +risy that believes and avoids. They did not say: +This law was once just, but is now unjust; it was +once good, but now it is infamous; it was given by +God once, but now it can only be obeyed by the +devil. They had not reached the height of biblical +exegesis on which we find the modern theologian +perched, and who tells us that Jehovah has reformed. +The Puritans were consistent. They did what people +must do who honestly believe in the inspiration of +the Old Testament. If God gave laws from Sinai +what right have we to repeal them? + +312 + +As people have gained confidence in each other, +they have lost confidence in the sacred Scriptures. +We know now that the Bible can not be used as the +foundation of government. It is capable of too many +meanings. Nobody can find out exactly what it +upholds, what it permits, what it denounces, what it +denies. These things depend upon what part you +read. If it is all true, it upholds everything bad and +denounces everything good, and it also denounces +the bad and upholds the good. Then there are +passages where the good is denounced and the bad +commanded; so that any one can go to the Bible +and find some text, some passage, to uphold anything +he may desire. If he wishes to enslave his fellow- +men, he will find hundreds of passages in his favor. +If he wishes to be a polygamist, he can find his +authority there. If he wishes to make war, to exter- +minate his neighbors, there his warrant can be found. +If, on the other hand, he is oppressed himself, and +wishes to make war upon his king, he can find a +battle-cry. And if the king wishes to put him down, +he can find text for text on the other side. So, too, +upon all questions of reform. The teetotaler goes +there to get his verse, and the moderate drinker +finds within the sacred lids his best excuse. + +313 + +Most intelligent people are now convinced that the +bible is not a guide; that in reading it you must +exercise your reason; that you can neither safely +reject nor accept all; that he who takes one passage +for a staff, trips upon another; that while one text is +a light, another blows it out; that it is such a ming- +ling of rocks and quicksands, such a labyrinth of +clews and snares--so few flowers among so many +nettles and thorns, that it misleads rather than di- +rects, and taken altogether, is a hindrance and not +a help. + +Another important point made by Mr. Talmage is, +that if the Bible is thrown away, we will have nothing +left to swear witnesses on, and that consequently the +administration of justice will become impossible. + +There was a time when the Bible did not exist, and +if Mr. Talmage is correct, of course justice was im- +possible then, and truth must have been a stranger +to human lips. How can we depend upon the testi- +mony of those who wrote the Bible, as there was no +Bible in existence while they were writing, and con- +sequently there was no way to take their testimony, +and we have no account of their having been sworn +on the Bible after they got it finished. It is extremely +sad to think that all the nations of antiquity were left + +314 + +entirely without the means of eliciting truth. No +wonder that Justice was painted blindfolded. + +What perfect fetichism it is, to imagine that a man +will tell the truth simply because he has kissed an +old piece of sheepskin stained with the saliva of all +classes. A farce of this kind adds nothing to the +testimony of an honest man; it simply allows a rogue +to give weight to his false testimony. This is really +the only result that can be accomplished by kissing +the Bible. A desperate villain, for the purpose of +getting revenge, or making money, will gladly go +through the ceremony, and ignorant juries and su- +perstitious judges will be imposed upon. The whole +system of oaths is false, and does harm instead of +good. Let every man walk into court and tell his +story, and let the truth of the story be judged by its +reasonableness, taking into consideration the charac- +ter of the witness, the interest he has, and the posi- +tion he occupies in the controversy, and then let it +be the business of the jury to ascertain the real truth +--to throw away the unreasonable and the impossi- +ble, and make up their verdict only upon what they +believe to be reasonable and true. An honest man +does not need the oath, and a rascal uses it simply +to accomplish his purpose. If the history of courts + +315 + +proved that every man, after kissing the Bible, told +the truth, and that those who failed to kiss it some- +times lied, I should be in favor of swearing all people +on the Bible; but the experience of every lawyer is, +that kissing the Bible is not always the preface of a +true story. It is often the ceremonial embroidery +of a falsehood. + +If there is an infinite God who attends to the +affairs of men, it seems to me almost a sacrilege to +publicly appeal to him in every petty trial. If one +will go into any court, and notice the manner in +which oaths are administered,--the utter lack of +solemnity--the matter-of-course air with which the +whole thing is done, he will be convinced that it is a +form of no importance. Mr. Talmage would probably +agree with the judge of whom the following story is +told: + +A witness was being sworn. The judge noticed +that he was not holding up his hand. He said to the +clerk: "Let the witness hold up his right hand." +"His right arm was shot off," replied the clerk. "Let +"him hold up his left, then." "That was shot off, too, +"your honor." "Well, then, let him raise one foot; +"no man can be sworn in this court without holding +"something up." + + +My own opinion is, that if every copy of the Bible +in the world were destroyed, there would be some +way to ascertain the truth in judicial proceedings; +and any other book would do just as well to swear +witnesses upon, or a block in the shape of a book +covered with some kind of calfskin could do equally +well, or just the calfskin would do. Nothing is more +laughable than the performance of this ceremony, +and I have never seen in court one calf kissing the +skin of another, that I did not feel humiliated that +such things were done in the name of Justice. + +Mr. Talmage has still another argument in favor +of the preservation of the Bible. He wants to +know what book could take its place on the centre- +table. + +I admit that there is much force in this. Suppose +we all admitted the Bible to be an uninspired book, +it could still be kept on the centre-table. It would +be just as true then as it is now. Inspiration can not +add anything to a fact; neither can inspiration make +the immoral moral, the unjust just, or the cruel merci- +ful. If it is a fact that God established human slavery, +that does not prove slavery to be right; it simply +shows that God was wrong. If I have the right to +use my reason in determining whether the Bible is + +317 + +inspired or not, and if in accordance with my reason +I conclude that it is inspired, I have still the right to +use my reason in determining whether the command- +ments of God are good or bad. Now, suppose we +take from the Bible every word upholding slavery, +every passage in favor of polygamy, every verse +commanding soldiers to kill women and children, it +would be just as fit for the centre-table as now. Sup- +pose every impure word was taken from it; suppose +that the history of Tamar was left out, the biography +of Lot, and all other barbarous accounts of a barbarous +people, it would look just as well upon the centre- +table as now. + +Suppose that we should become convinced that +the writers of the New Testament were mistaken as +to the eternity of punishment, or that all the passages +now relied upon to prove the existence of perdition +were shown to be interpolations, and were thereupon +expunged, would not the book be dearer still to +every human being with a heart? I would like to +see every good passage in the Bible preserved. I +would like to see, with all these passages from the +Bible, the loftiest sentiments from all other books +that have ever been uttered by men in all ages and +of all races, bound in one volume, and to see that + +318 + +volume, filled with the greatest, the purest and the +best, become the household book. + +The average Bible, on the average centre-table, is +about as much used as though it were a solid block. +It is scarcely ever opened, and people who see its +covers every day are unfamiliar with its every page. + +I admit that some things have happened some- +what hard to explain, and tending to show that the +Bible is no ordinary book. I heard a story, not long +ago, bearing upon this very subject. + +A man was a member of the church, but after a +time, having had bad luck in business affairs, became +somewhat discouraged. Not feeling able to con- +tribute his share to the support of the church, he +ceased going to meeting, and finally became an +average sinner. His bad luck pursued him until he +found himself and his family without even a crust to +eat. At this point, his wife told him that she be- +lieved they were suffering from a visitation of God, +and begged him to restore family worship, and see if +God would not do something for them. Feeling that +he could not possibly make matters worse, he took +the Bible from its resting place on a shelf where +it had quietly slumbered and collected the dust of +many months, and gathered his family about him. + +319 + +He opened the sacred volume, and to his utter as- +tonishment, there, between the divine leaves, was a +ten-dollar bill. He immediately dropped on his +knees. His wife dropped on hers, and the children on +theirs, and with streaming eyes they returned thanks +to God. He rushed to the butcher's and bought +some steak, to the baker's and bought some bread, +to the grocer's and got some eggs and butter and tea, +and joyfully hastened home. The supper was cooked, +it was on the table, grace was said, and every face +was radiant with joy. Just at that happy moment a +knock was heard, the door was opened, and a police- +man entered and arrested the father for passing +counterfeit money. + +Mr. Talmage is also convinced that the Bible is +inspired and should be preserved because there is no +other book that à mother could give her son as he +leaves the old home to make his way in the world. + +Thousands and thousands of mothers have pre- +sented their sons with Bibles without knowing really +what the book contains. They simply followed the +custom, and the sons as a rule honored the Bible, not +because they knew anything of it, but because it was +a gift from mother. But surely, if all the passages +upholding polygamy were out, the mother would give + +320 + +the book to her son just as readily, and he would re- +ceive it just as joyfully. If there were not one word +in it tending to degrade the mother, the gift would cer- +tainly be as appropriate. The fact that mothers have +presented Bibles to their sons does not prove that the +book is inspired. The most that can be proved by +this fact is that the mothers believed it to be inspired. +It does not even tend to show what the book is, +neither does it tend to establish the truth of one +miracle recorded upon its pages. We cannot believe +that fire refused to burn, simply because the state- +ment happens to be in a book presented to a son by +his mother, and if all the mothers of the entire world +should give Bibles to all their children, this would not +prove that it was once right to murder mothers, or to +enslave mothers, or to sell their babes. + +The inspiration of the Bible is not a question of +natural affection. It can not be decided by the love +a mother bears her son. It is a question of fact, to +be substantiated like other facts. If the Turkish +mother should give a copy of the Koran to her +son, I would still have my doubts about the in- +spiration of that book; and if some Turkish soldier +saved his life by having in his pocket a copy of +the Koran that accidentally stopped a bullet just + +321 + +opposite his heart, I should still deny that Mohammed +was a prophet of God. + +Nothing can be more childish than to ascribe +mysterious powers to inanimate objects. To imagine +that old rags made into pulp, manufactured into +paper, covered with words, and bound with the skin +of a calf or a sheep, can have any virtues when thus +put together that did not belong to the articles out +of which the book was constructed, is of course +infinitely absurd. + +In the days of slavery, negroes used to buy dried +roots of other negroes, and put these roots in their +pockets, so that a whipping would not give them +pain. Kings have bought diamonds to give them +luck. Crosses and scapularies are still worn for the +purpose of affecting the inevitable march of events. +People still imagine that a verse in the Bible can step +in between a cause and its effect; really believe that +an amulet, a charm, the bone of some saint, a piece +of a cross, a little image of the Virgin, a picture of a +priest, will affect the weather, will delay frost, will +prevent disease, will insure safety at sea, and in some +cases prevent hanging. The banditti of Italy have +great confidence in these things, and whenever they +start upon an expedition of theft and plunder, they + +322 + +take images and pictures of saints with them, such +as have been blest by a priest or pope. They pray +sincerely to the Virgin, to give them luck, and see not +the slightest inconsistency in appealing to all the +saints in the calendar to assist them in robbing honest +people. + +Edmund About tells a story that illustrates the belief +of the modern Italian. A young man was gambling. +Fortune was against him. In the room was a little +picture representing the Virgin and her child. Before +this picture he crossed himself, and asked the assist- +ance of the child. Again he put down his money +and again lost. Returning to the picture, he told the +child that he had lost all but one piece, that he was +about to hazard that, and made a very urgent request +that he would favor him with divine assistance. He +put down the last piece. He lost. Going to the +picture and shaking his fist at the child, he cried out: +"Miserable bambino, I am glad they crucified you!" + +The confidence that one has in an image, in a relic, +in a book, comes from the same source,--fetichism. +To ascribe supernatural virtues to the skin of a snake, +to a picture, or to a bound volume, is intellectually +the same. + +Mr. Talmage has still another argument in favor + +323 + +of the inspiration of the Scriptures. He takes the +ground that the Bible must be inspired, because so +many people believe it. + +Mr. Talmage should remember that a scientific +fact does not depend upon the vote of numbers;-- +it depends simply upon demonstration; it depends +upon intelligence and investigation, not upon an +ignorant multitude; it appeals to the highest, in- +stead of to the lowest. Nothing can be settled +by popular prejudice. + +According to Mr. Talmage, there are about three +hundred million Christians in the world. Is this true? +In all countries claiming to be Christian--including +all of civilized Europe, Russia in Asia, and every +country on the Western hemisphere, we have nearly +four hundred millions of people. Mr. Talmage claims +that three hundred millions are Christians. I sup- +pose he means by this, that if all should perish to- +night, about three hundred millions would wake up +in heaven--having lived and died good and consist- +ent Christians. + +There are in Russia about eighty millions of people +--how many Christians? I admit that they have re- +cently given more evidence of orthodox Christianity +than formerly. They have been murdering old men; + +324 + +they have thrust daggers into the breasts of women; +they have violated maidens--because they were Jews. +Thousands and thousands are sent each year to the +mines of Siberia, by the Christian government of +Russia. Girls eighteen years of age, for having ex- +pressed a word in favor of human liberty, are to-day +working like beasts of burden, with chains upon +their limbs and with the marks of whips upon +their backs. Russia, of course, is considered by Mr. +Talmage as a Christian country--a country utterly +destitute of liberty--without freedom of the press, +without freedom of speech, where every mouth is +locked and every tongue a prisoner--a country filled +with victims, soldiers, spies, thieves and executioners. +What would Russia be, in the opinion of Mr. Tal- +mage, but for Christianity? How could it be worse, +when assassins are among the best people in it? +The truth is, that the people in Russia, to-day, who +are in favor of human liberty, are not Christians. +The men willing to sacrifice their lives for the good +of others, are not believers in the Christian religion. +The men who wish to break chains are infidels; +the men who make chains are Christians. Every +good and sincere Catholic of the Greek Church +is a bad citizen, an enemy of progress, a foe of + +325 + +human liberty. Yet Mr. Talmage regards Russia +as a Christian country. + +The sixteen millions of people in Spain are claimed +as Christians. Spain, that for centuries was the as- +sassin of human rights; Spain, that endeavored to +spread Christianity by flame and fagot; Spain, the +soil where the Inquisition flourished, where bigotry +grew, and where cruelty was worship,--where +murder was prayer. I admit that Spain is a Chris- +tian nation. I admit that infidelity has gained no +foothold beyond the Pyrenees. The Spaniards are +orthodox. They believe in the inspiration of the +Old and New Testaments. They have no doubts +about miracles--no doubts about heaven, no doubts +about hell. I admit that the priests, the highway- +men, the bishops and thieves, are equally true be- +lievers. The man who takes your purse on the +highway, and the priest who forgives the robber, +are alike orthodox. + +It gives me pleasure, however, to say that even in +Spain there is a dawn. Some great men, some men +of genius, are protesting against the tyranny of Cath- +olicism. Some men have lost confidence in the +cathedral, and are beginningto ask the State to erect +the schoolhouse. They are beginning to suspect + +326 + +that priests are for the most part impostors and +plunderers. + +According to Mr. Talmage, the twenty-eight mil- +lions in Italy are Christians. There the Christian +Church was early established, and the popes are to- +day the successors of St. Peter. For hundreds and +hundreds of years, Italy was the beggar of the world, +and to her, from every land, flowed streams of gold +and silver. The country was covered with convents, +and monasteries, and churches, and cathedrals filled +with monks and nuns. Its roads were crowded with +pilgrims, and its dust was on the feet of the world. +What has Christianity done for Italy--Italy, its soil a +blessing, its sky a smile--Italy, with memories great +enough to kindle the fires of enthusiasm in any +human breast? + +Had it not been for a few Freethinkers, for a few +infidels, for such men as Garibaldi and Mazzini, the +heaven of Italy would still have been without a star. + +I admit that Italy, with its popes and bandits, with +its superstition and ignorance, with its sanctified +beggars, is a Christian nation; but in a little while,-- +in a few days,--when according to the prophecy of +Garibaldi priests, with spades in their hands, will +dig ditches to drain the Pontine marshes; in a little + +327 + +while, when the pope leaves the Vatican, and seeks +the protection of a nation he has denounced,--asking +alms of intended victims; when the nuns shall marry, +and the monasteries shall become factories, and the +whirl of wheels shall take the place of drowsy prayers +--then, and not until then, will Italy be,--not a +Christian nation, but great, prosperous, and free. + +In Italy, Giordano Bruno was burned. Some day, +his monument will rise above the cross of Rome. + +We have in our day one example,--and so far as I +know, history records no other,--of the resurrection +of a nation. Italy has been called from the grave of +superstition. She is "the first fruits of them that +"slept." + +I admit with Mr. Talmage that Portugal is a Chris- +tian country--that she engaged for hundreds of years +in the slave trade, and that she justified the infamous +traffic by passages in the Old Testament. I admit, +also, that she persecuted the Jews in accordance +with the same divine volume. I admit that all the +crime, ignorance, destitution, and superstition in that +country were produced by the Catholic Church. I +also admit that Portugal would be better if it were +Protestant. + +Every Catholic is in favor of education enough to + +328 + +change a barbarian into a Catholic; every Protestant +is in favor of education enough to change a Catholic +into a Protestant; but Protestants and Catholics alike +are opposed to education that will lead to any +real philosophy and science. I admit that Portugal +is what it is, on account of the preaching of the +gospel. I admit that Portugal can point with pride +to the triumphs of what she calls civilization within +her borders, and truthfully ascribe the glory to the +church. But in a litde while, when more railroads +are built, when telegraphs connect her people with +the civilized world, a spirit of doubt, of investigation, +will manifest itself in Portugal. + +When the people stop counting beads, and go to +the study of mathematics; when they think more of +plows than of prayers for agricultural purposes; when +they find that one fact gives more light to the mind +than a thousand tapers, and that nothing can by any +possibility be more useless than a priest,--then Por- +tugal will begin to cease to be what is called a +Christian nation. + +I admit that Austria, with her thirty-seven millions, +is a Christian nation--including her Croats, Hungar- +ians, Servians, and Gypsies. Austria was one of the +assassins of Poland. When we remember that John + +329 + +Sobieski drove the Mohammedans from the gates of +Vienna, and rescued from the hand of the "infidel" +the beleagured city, the propriety of calling Austria a +Christian nation becomes still more apparent. If one +wishes to know exactly how "Christian" Austria is, +let him read the history of Hungary, let him read +the speeches of Kossuth. There is one good thing +about Austria: slowly but surely she is undermining +the church by education. Education is the enemy +of superstition. Universal education does away with +the classes born of the tyranny of ecclesiasticism-- +classes founded upon cunning, greed, and brute +strength. Education also tends to do away with +intellectual cowardice. The educated man is his +own priest, his own pope, his own church. + +When cunning collects tolls from fear, the church +prospers. + +Germany is another Christian nation. Bismarck is +celebrated for his Christian virtues. + +Only a little while ago, Bismarck, when a bill was +under consideration for ameliorating the condition +of the Jews, stated publicly that Germany was a +Christian nation, that her business was to extend +and protect the religion of Jesus Christ, and that +being a Christian nation, no laws should be passed + +330 + +ameliorating the condition of the Jews. Certainly a +remark like this could not have been made in any +other than a Christian nation. There is no freedom +of the press, there is no freedom of speech, in Ger- +many. The Chancellor has gone so far as to declare +that the king is not responsible to the people. Ger- +many must be a Christian nation. The king gets his +right to govern, not from his subjects, but from God. +He relies upon the New Testament. He is satisfied +that "the powers that be in Germany are ordained +"of God." He is satisfied that treason against the +German throne is treason against Jehovah. There +are millions of Freethinkers in Germany. They are +not in the majority, otherwise there would be more +liberty in that country. Germany is not an infidel +nation, or speech would be free, and every man +would be allowed to express his honest thoughts. + +Wherever I see Liberty in chains, wherever the +expression of opinion is a crime, I know that that +country is not infidel; I know that the people are not +ruled by reason. I also know that the greatest men +of Germany--her Freethinkers, her scientists, her +writers, her philosophers, are, for the most part, in- +fidel. Yet Germany is called a Christian nation, and +ought to be so called until her citizens are free. + +331 + +France is also claimed as a Christian country. This +is not entirely true. France once was thoroughly +Catholic, completely Christian. At the time of the +massacre of Saint Bartholomew, the French were +Christians. Christian France made exiles of the +Huguenots. Christian France for years and years +was the property of the Jesuits. Christian France +was ignorant, cruel, orthodox and infamous. When +France was Christian, witnesses were cross-examined +with instruments of torture. + +Now France is not entirely under Catholic control, +and yet she is by far the most prosperous nation in +Europe. I saw, only the other day, a letter from a +Protestant bishop, in which he states that there are +only about a million Protestants in France, and only +four or five millions of Catholics, and admits, in a +very melancholy way, that thirty-four or thirty-five +millions are Freethinkers. The bishop is probably +mistaken in his figures, but France is the best housed, +the best fed, the best clad country in Europe. + +Only a little while ago, France was overrun, trampled +into the very earth, by the victorious hosts of Ger- +many, and France purchased her peace with the +savings of centuries. And yet France is now rich and +prosperous and free, and Germany poor, discontented + +332 + +and enslaved. Hundreds and thousands of Germans, +unable to find liberty at home, are coming to the +United States. + +I admit that England is a Christian country. Any +doubts upon this point can be dispelled by reading +her history--her career in India, what she has done +in China, her treatment of Ireland, of the American +Colonies, her attitude during our Civil war; all these +things show conclusively that England is a Christian +nation. + +Religion has filled Great Britain with war. The +history of the Catholics, of the Episcopalians, of +Cromwell--all the burnings, the maimings, the brand- +ings, the imprisonments, the confiscations, the civil +wars, the bigotry, the crime--show conclusively that +Great Britain has enjoyed to the full the blessings of +"our most holy religion." + +Of course, Mr. Talmage claims the United States +as a Christian country. The truth is, our country is +not as Christian as it once was. When heretics were +hanged in New England, when the laws of Virginia +and Maryland provided that the tongue of any man +who denied the doctrine of the Trinity should be +bored with hot iron,, and that for the second offence +he should suffer death, I admit that this country was + +333 + +Christian. When we engaged in the slave trade, +when our flag protected piracy and murder in every +sea, there is not the slightest doubt that the United +States was a Christian country. When we believed +in slavery, and when we deliberately stole the labor +of four millions of people; when we sold women +and babes, and when the people of the North +enacted a law by virtue of which every Northern +man was bound to turn hound and pursue a human +being who was endeavoring to regain his liberty, I +admit that the United States was a Christian nation. +I admit that all these things were upheld by the Bible +--that the slave trader was justified by the Old Testa- +ment, that the bloodhound was a kind of missionary +in disguise, that the auction block was an altar, the +slave pen a kind of church, and that the whipping- +post was considered almost as sacred as the cross. +At that time, our country was a Christian nation. + +I heard Frederick Douglass say that he lectured +against slavery for twenty years before the doors +of a single church were opened to him. In New +England, hundreds of ministers were driven from +their pulpits because they preached against the +crime of human slavery. At that time, this country +was a Christian nation. + +334 + +Only a few years ago, any man speaking in favor +of the rights of man, endeavoring to break a chain +from a human limb, was in danger of being mobbed +by the Christians of this country. I admit that Dela- +ware is still a Christian State. I heard a story about +that State the other day. + +About fifty years ago, an old Revolutionary soldier +applied for a pension. He was asked his age, and he +replied that he was fifty years old. He was told that +if that was his age, he could not have been in the +Revolutionary War, and consequently was not en- +titled to any pension. He insisted, however, that he +was only fifty years old. Again they told him that +there must be some mistake. He was so wrinkled, +so bowed, had so many marks of age, that he must +certainly be more than fifty years old. "Well," said +the old man, "if I must explain, I will: I lived forty +"years in Delaware; but I never counted that time, +"and I hope God won't." + +The fact is, we have grown less and less Christian +every year from 1620 until now, and the fact is that +we have grown more and more civilized, more and +more charitable, nearer and nearer just. + +Mr. Talmage speaks as though all the people in +what he calls the civilized world were Christians. Ad- + +335 + +mitting this to be true, I find that in these countries +millions of men are educated, trained and drilled to +kill their fellow Christians. I find Europe covered +with forts to protect Christians from Christians, and +the seas filled with men-of-war for the purpose of +ravaging the coasts and destroying the cities of Chris- +tian nations. These countries are filled with prisons, +with workhouses, with jails and with toiling, ignorant +and suffering millions. I find that Christians have +invented most of the instruments of death, that +Christians are the greatest soldiers, fighters, de- +stroyers. I find that every Christian country is taxed +to its utmost to support these soldiers; that every +Christian nation is now groaning beneath the grievous +burden of monstrous debt, and that nearly all these +debts were contracted in waging war. These bonds, +these millions, these almost incalculable amounts, +were given to pay for shot and shell, for rifle and +torpedo, for men-of-war, for forts and arsenals, and +all the devilish enginery of death. I find that each +of these nations prays to God to assist it as against +all others; and when one nation has overrun, ravaged +and pillaged another, it immediately returns thanks +to the Almighty, and the ravaged and pillaged kneel +and thank God that it is no worse. + +336 + +Mr. Talmage is welcome to all the evidence he can +find in the history of what he is pleased to call the +civilized nations of the world, tending to show the +inspiration of the Bible. + +And right here it may be well enough to say again, +that the question of inspiration can not be settled by +the votes of the superstitious millions. It can not be +affected by numbers. It must be decided by each +human being for himself. If every man in this world, +with one exception, believed the Bible to be the in- +spired word of God, the man who was the exception +could not lose his right to think, to investigate, and to +judge for himself. + +_Question_. You do not think, then, that any of the +arguments brought forward by Mr. Talmage for the +purpose of establishing the inspiration of the Bible, +are of any weight whatever? + +_Answer_. I do not. I do not see how it is possible +to make poorer, weaker or better arguments than he +has made. + +Of course, there can be no "evidence" of the in- +spiration of the Scriptures. What is "inspiration"? +Did God use the prophets simply as instruments? +Did he put his thoughts in their minds, and use their + +337 + +hands to make a record? Probably few Christians +will agree as to what they mean by "inspiration." +The general idea is, that the minds of the writers of +the books of the Bible were controlled by the divine +will in such a way that they expressed, independently +of their own opinions, the thought of God. I believe it +is admitted that God did not choose the exact words, +and is not responsible for the punctuation or syntax. +It is hard to give any reason for claiming more for +the Bible than is claimed by those who wrote it. +There is no claim of "inspiration" made by the writer +of First and Second Kings. Not one word about the +author having been "inspired" is found in the book +of Job, or in Ruth, or in Chronicles, or in the Psalms, +or Ecclesiastes, or in Solomon's Song, and nothing is +said about the author of the book of Esther having +been "inspired." Christians now say that Matthew, +Mark, Luke and John were "inspired" to write the +four gospels, and yet neither Mark, nor Luke, nor +John, nor Matthew claims to have been "inspired." +If they were "inspired," certainly they should have +stated that fact. The very first thing stated in each +of the gospels should have been a declaration by the +writer that he had been "inspired," and that he was +about to write the book under the guidance of God, + +338 + +and at the conclusion of each gospel there should +have been a solemn statement that the writer had +put down nothing of himself, but had in all things +followed the direction and guidance of the divine +will. The church now endeavors to establish the +inspiration of the Bible by force, by social ostracism, +and by attacking the reputation of every man who +denies or doubts. In all Christian countries, they +begin with the child in the cradle. Each infant is +told by its mother, by its father, or by some of its +relatives, that "the Bible is an inspired book." This +pretended fact, by repetition "in season and out of +"season," is finally burned and branded into the +brain to such a degree that the child of average +intelligence never outgrows the conviction that the +Bible is, in some peculiar sense, an "inspired" book. +The question has to be settled for each generation. +The evidence is not sufficient, and the foundation of +Christianity is perpetually insecure. Beneath this great +religious fabric there is no rock. For eighteen centu- +ries, hundreds and thousands and millions of people +have been endeavoring to establish the fact that the +Scriptures are inspired, and since the dawn of science, +since the first star appeared in the night of the +Middle Ages, until this moment, the number of + +339 + +people who have doubted the fact of inspiration +has steadily increased. These doubts have not been +born of ignorance, they have not been suggested by +the unthinking. They have forced themselves upon +the thoughtful, upon the educated, and now the ver- +dict of the intellectual world is, that the Bible is not +inspired. Notwithstanding the fact that the church +has taken advantage of infancy, has endeavored to +control education, has filled all primers and spelling- +books and readers and text books with superstition-- +feeding all minds with the miraculous and super- +natural, the growth toward a belief in the natural +and toward the rejection of the miraculous has been +steady and sturdy since the sixteenth century. There +has been, too, a moral growth, until many passages +in the Bible have become barbarous, inhuman and +infamous. The Bible has remained the same, while +the world has changed. In the light of physical and +moral discovery, "the inspired volume" seems in +many respects absurd. If the same progress is made +in the next, as in the last, century, it is very easy to +predict the place that will then be occupied by the +Bible. By comparing long periods of time, it is easy +to measure the advance of the human race. Com- +pare the average sermon of to-day with the average + +340 + +sermon of one hundred years ago. Compare what +ministers teach to-day with the creeds they profess +to believe, and you will see the immense distance +that even the church has traveled in the last century. + +The Christians tell us that scientific men have +made mistakes, and that there is very little certainty +in the domain of human knowledge. This I admit. +The man who thought the world was flat, and who +had a way of accounting for the movement of the +heavenly bodies, had what he was pleased to call a +philosophy. He was, in his way, a geologist and an +astronomer. We admit that he was mistaken; but +if we claimed that the first geologist and the first +astronomer were inspired, it would not do for us to +admit that any advance had been made, or that any +errors of theirs had been corrected. We do not +claim that the first scientists were inspired. We do +not claim that the last are inspired. We admit that +all scientific men are fallible. We admit that they do +not know everything. We insist that they know but +little, and that even in that little which they are sup- +posed to know, there is the possibility of error. The +first geologist said: "The earth is flat." Suppose +that the geologists of to-day should insist that that +man was inspired, and then endeavor to show that + +341 + +the word "flat," in the "Hebrew," did not mean +quite flat, but just a little rounded; what would we +think of their honesty? The first astronomer in- +sisted that the sun and moon and stars revolved +around this earth--that this little earth was the centre +of the entire system. Suppose that the astronomers +of to-day should insist that that astronomer was in- +spired, and should try to explain, and say that he +simply used the language of the common people, and +when he stated that the sun and moon and stars re- +volved around the earth, he merely meant that they +"apparently revolved," and that the earth, in fact, +turned over, would we consider them honest men? +You might as well say that the first painter was in- +spired, or that the first sculptor had the assistance of +God, as to say that the first writer, or the first book- +maker, was divinely inspired. It is more probable +that the modern geologist is inspired than that the an- +cient one was, because the modern geologist is nearer +right. It is more probable that William Lloyd Gar- +rison was inspired upon the question of slavery than +that Moses was. It is more probable that the author +of the Declaration of Independence spoke by divine +authority than that the author of the Pentateuch did. +In other words, if there can be any evidence of + +342 + +"inspiration," it must lie in the fact of doing or +saying the best possible thing that could have been +done or said at that time or upon that subject. + +To make myself clear: The only possible evidence +of "inspiration" would be perfection--a perfection ex- +celling anything that man unaided had ever attained. +An "inspired" book should excel all other books; an +inspired statue should be the best in this world; an in- +spired painting should be beyond all others. If the Bible +has been improved in any particular, it was not, in that +particular, ''inspired." If slavery is wrong, the Bible is +not inspired. If polygamy is vile and loathsome, the +Bible is not inspired. If wars of extermination are cruel +and heartless, the Bible is not "inspired." If there is +within that book a contradiction of any natural fact; if +there is one ignorant falsehood, if there is one mistake, +then it is not "inspired." I do not mean mistakes that +have grown out of translations; but if there was in +the original manuscript one mistake, then it is not +"inspired." I do not demand a miracle; I do not +demand a knowledge of the future; I simply demand +an absolute knowledge of the past. I demand an ab- +solute knowledge of the then present; I demand a +knowledge of the constitution of the human mind-- +of the facts in nature, and that is all I demand. + +343 + +_Question_. If I understand you, you think that all +political power should come from the people; do you +not believe in any "special providence," and do you +take the ground that God does not interest himself +in the affairs of nations and individuals? + +_Answer_. The Christian idea is that God made the +world, and made certain laws for the government of +matter and mind, and that he never interferes except +upon special occasions, when the ordinary laws fail to +work out the desired end. Their notion is, that the +Lord now and then stops the horses simply to show +that he is driving. It seems to me that if an infinitely +wise being made the world, he must have made it +the best possible; and that if he made laws for the +government of matter and mind, he must have made +the best possible laws. If this is true, not one of +these laws can be violated without producing a posi- +tive injury. It does not seem probable that infinite +wisdom would violate a law that infinite wisdom had +made. + +Most ministers insist that God now and then in- +terferes in the affairs of this world; that he has not +interfered as much lately as he did formerly. When +the world was comparatively new, it required alto- +gether more tinkering and fixing than at present. + +344 + +Things are at last in a reasonably good condition, +and consequently a great amount of interference is +not necessary. In old times it was found necessary fre- +quently to raise the dead, to change the nature of fire +and water, to punish people with plagues and famine, +to destroy cities by storms of fire and brimstone, to +change women into salt, to cast hailstones upon +heathen, to interfere with the movements of our +planetary system, to stop the earth not only, but +sometimes to make it turn the other way, to arrest +the moon, and to make water stand up like a wall. +Now and then, rivers were divided by striking them +with a coat, and people were taken to heaven in +chariots of fire. These miracles, in addition to curing +the sick, the halt, the deaf and blind, were in former +times found necessary, but since the "apostolic age," +nothing of the kind has been resorted to except in +Catholic countries. Since the death of the last +apostle, God has appeared only to members of the +Catholic Church, and all modern miracles have been +performed for the benefit of Catholicism. There is +no authentic account of the Virgin Mary having ever +appeared to a Protestant. The bones of Protestant +saints have never cured a solitary disease. Protest- +ants now say that the testimony of the Catholics can + +345 + +not be relied upon, and yet, the authenticity of every +book in the New Testament was established by Cath- +olic testimony. Some few miracles were performed +in Scotland, and in fact in England and the United +States, but they were so small that they are hardly +worth mentioning. Now and then, a man was struck +dead for taking the name of the Lord in vain. Now +and then, people were drowned who were found in +boats on Sunday. Whenever anybody was about to +commit murder, God has not interfered--the reason +being that he gave man free-will, and expects to hold +him accountable in another world, and there is no +exception to this free-will doctrine, but in cases +where men swear or violate the Sabbath. They are +allowed to commit all other crimes without any in- +terference on the part of the Lord. + +My own opinion is, that the clergy found it neces- +sary to preserve the Sabbath for their own uses, and +for that reason endeavored to impress the people +with the enormity of its violation, and for that purpose +gave instances of people being drowned and suddenly +struck dead for working or amusing themselves on that +day. The clergy have objected to any other places of +amusement except their own, being opened on that +day. They wished to compel people either to go to + +346 + +church or stay at home. They have also known +that profanity tended to do away with the feelings +of awe they wished to cultivate, and for that reason +they have insisted that swearing was one of the most +terrible of crimes, exciting above all others the wrath +of God. + +There was a time when people fell dead for having +spoken disrespectfully to a priest. The priest at that +time pretended to be the visible representative of +God, and as such, entitled to a degree of reverence +amounting almost to worship. Several cases are +given in the ecclesiastical history of Scotland where +men were deprived of speech for having spoken +rudely to a parson. + +These stories were calculated to increase the im- +portance of the clergy and to convince people that +they were under the special care of the Deity. The +story about the bears devouring the little children +was told in the first place, and has been repeated +since, simply to protect ministers from the laughter +of children. There ought to be carved on each side +of every pulpit a bear with fragments of children in +its mouth, as this animal has done so much to protect +the dignity of the clergy. + +Besides the protection of ministers, the drowning + +347 + +of breakers of the Sabbath, and striking a few people +dead for using profane language, I think there is no +evidence of any providential interference in the affairs +of this world in what may be called modern times. +Ministers have endeavored to show that great calam- +ities have been brought upon nations and cities as a +punishment for the wickedness of the people. They +have insisted that some countries have been visited +with earthquakes because the people had failed to +discharge their religious duties; but as earthquakes +happened in uninhabited countries, and often at sea, +where no one is hurt, most people have concluded +that they are not sent as punishments. They have +insisted that cities have been burned as a punish- +ment, and to show the indignation of the Lord, but +at the same time they have admitted that if the +streets had been wider, the fire departments better +organized, and wooden buildings fewer, the design +of the Lord would have been frustrated. + +After reading the history of the world, it is some- +what difficult to find which side the Lord is really on. +He has allowed Catholics to overwhelm and de- +stroy Protestants, and then he has allowed Protestants +to overwhelm and destroy Catholics. He has allowed +Christianity to triumph over Paganism, and he allowed + +348 + +Mohammedans to drive back the hosts of the cross +from the sepulchre of his son. It is curious that this +God would allow the slave trade to go on, and yet +punish the violators of the Sabbath. It is simply +wonderful that he would allow kings to wage cruel +and remorseless war, to sacrifice millions upon the +altar of heartless ambition, and at the same time +strike a man dead for taking his name in vain. It is +wonderful that he allowed slavery to exist for centu- +ries in the United States; that he allows polygamy +now in Utah; that he cares nothing for liberty in +Russia, nothing for free speech in Germany, nothing +for the sorrows of the overworked, underpaid millions +of the world; that he cares nothing for the innocent +languishing in prisons, nothing for the patriots con- +demned to death, nothing for the heart-broken +widows and orphans, nothing for the starving, and +yet has ample time to note a sparrow's fall. If he +would only strike dead the would-be murderers; if +he would only palsy the hands of husbands' uplifted +to strike their wives; if he would render speechless +the cursers of children, he could afford to overlook +the swearers and breakers of his Sabbath. + +For one, I am not satisfied with the government +of this world, and I am going to do what little I can + +349 + +to make it better. I want more thought and less +fear, more manhood and less superstition, less prayer +and more help, more education, more reason, more +intellectual hospitality, and above all, and over all, +more liberty and kindness. + +_Question_. Do you think that God, if there be one, +when he saves or damns a man, will take into con- +sideration all the circumstances of the man's life? + +_Answer_. Suppose that two orphan boys, James +and John, are given homes. James is taken into a +Christian family and John into an infidel. James +becomes a Christian, and dies in the faith. John be- +comes an infidel, and dies without faith in Christ. +According to the Christian religion, as commonly +preached, James will go to heaven, and John to hell. + +Now, suppose that God knew that if James had +been raised by the infidel family, he would have died +an infidel, and that if John had been raised by the +Christian family, he would have died a Christian. +What then? Recollect that the boys did not choose +the families in which they were placed. + +Suppose that a child, cast away upon an island in +which he found plenty of food, grew to manhood; +and suppose that after he had reached mature years, + +350 + +the island was visited by a missionary who taught a +false religion; and suppose that this islander was con- +vinced that he ought to worship a wooden idol; and +suppose, further, that the worship consisted in sacri- +ficing animals; and suppose the islander, actuated +only by what he conceived to be his duty and by +thankfulness, sacrificed a toad every night and every +morning upon the altar of his wooden god; that +when the sky looked black and threatening he sacri- +ficed two toads; that when feeling unwell he sacrificed +three; and suppose that in all this he was honest, that +he really believed that the shedding of toad-blood +would soften the heart of his god toward him? And +suppose that after he had become fully-convinced +of the truth of his religion, a missionary of the +"true religion" should visit the island, and tell the +history of the Jews--unfold the whole scheme of +salvation? And suppose that the islander should +honestly reject the true religion? Suppose he should +say that he had "internal evidence" not only, but +that many miracles had been performed by his god, +in his behalf; that often when the sky was black +with storm, he had sacrificed a toad, and in a few +moments the sun was again visible, the heavens blue, +and without a cloud; that on several occasions, having + +351 + +forgotten at evening to sacrifice his toad, he found +himself unable to sleep--that his conscience smote +him, he had risen, made the sacrifice, returned to his +bed, and in a few moments sunk into a serene and +happy slumber? And suppose, further, that the man +honestly believed that the efficacy of the sacrifice +depended largely on the size of the toad? Now +suppose that in this belief the man had died,--what +then? + +It must be remembered that God knew when the +missionary of the false religion went to the island; +and knew that the islander would be convinced of the +truth of the false religion; and he also knew that the +missionary of the true religion could not, by any +possibility, convince the islander of the error of his +way; what then? + +If God is infinite, we cannot speak of him as +making efforts, as being tired. We cannot con- +sistently say that one thing is easy to him, and +another thing is hard, providing both are possible. +This being so, why did not God reveal himself to +every human being? Instead of having an inspired +book, why did he not make inspired folks? Instead +of having his commandments put on tables of stone, +why did he not write them on each human brain? + +352 + +Why was not the mind of each man so made that +every religious truth necessary to his salvation was +an axiom? + +Do we not know absolutely that man is greatly +influenced by his surroundings? If Mr. Talmage +had been born in Turkey, is it not probable that +he would now be a whirling Dervish? If he had +first seen the light in Central Africa, he might now +have been prostrate before some enormous serpent; +if in India, he might have been a Brahmin, running a +prayer-machine; if in Spain, he would probably have +been a priest, with his beads and holy water. Had +he been born among the North American Indians, +he would speak of the "Great Spirit," and solemnly +smoke the the pipe of peace. + +Mr. Talmage teaches that it is the duty of children +to perpetuate the errors of their parents; conse- +quently, the religion of his parents determined his +theology. It is with him not a question of reason, +but of parents; not a question of argument, but of +filial affection. He does not wish to be a philoso- +pher, but an obedient son. Suppose his father had +been a Catholic, and his mother a Protestant,--what +then? Would he show contempt for his mother by +following the path of his father; or would he show + +353 + +disrespect for his father, by accepting the religion of +his mother; or would he have become a Protestant +with Catholic proclivities, or a Catholic with Protest- +ant leanings? Suppose his parents had both been +infidels--what then? + +Is it not better for each one to decide honestly for +himself? Admitting that your parents were good and +kind; admitting that they were honest in their views, +why not have the courage to say, that in your opinion, +father and mother were both mistaken? No one can +honor his parents by being a hypocrite, or an intellectu- +al coward. Whoever is absolutely true to himself, is +true to his parents, and true to the whole world. Who- +ever is untrue to himself, is false to all mankind. Re- +ligion must be an individual matter. If there is a God, +and if there is a day of judgment, the church that a man +belongs to will not be tried, but the man will be tried. + +It is a fact that the religion of most people was made +for them by others; that they have accepted certain +dogmas, not because they have examined them, but +because they were told that they were true. Most of +the people in the United States, had they been born in +Turkey, would now be Mohammedans, and most of +the Turks, had they been born in Spain, would now +be Catholics. + +354 + +It is almost, if not quite, impossible for a man to +rise entirely above the ideas, views, doctrines and re- +ligions of his tribe or country. No one expects to +find philosophers in Central Africa, or scientists +among the Fejees. No one expects to find philoso- +phers or scientists in any country where the church +has absolute control. + +If there is an infinitely good and wise God, of +course he will take into consideration the surround- +ings of every human being. He understands the +philosophy of environment, and of heredity. He +knows exactly the influence of the mother, of all +associates, of all associations. He will also take into +consideration the amount, quality and form of each +brain, and whether the brain was healthy or diseased. +He will take into consideration the strength of the +passions, the weakness of the judgment. He will +know exactly the force of all temptation--what was +resisted. He will take an account of every effort +made in the right direction, and will understand +all the winds and waves and quicksands and shores +and shallows in, upon and around the sea of every +life. + +My own opinion is, that if such a being exists, and +all these things are taken into consideration, we will + +355 + +be absolutely amazed to see how small the difference +is between the "good" and the "bad." Certainly +there is no such difference as would justify a being +of infinite wisdom and benevolence in rewarding one +with eternal joy and punishing the other with eternal +pain. + +_Question_. What are the principal reasons that +have satisfied you that the Bible is not an inspired +book? + +_Answer_. The great evils that have afflicted this +world are: + +_First_. Human slavery--where men have bought +and sold their fellow-men--sold babes from mothers, +and have practiced) every conceivable cruelty upon +the helpless. + +_Second_. Polygamy--an institution that destroys +the home, that treats woman as a simple chattel, that +does away with the sanctity of marriage, and with all +that is sacred in love. + +_Third_. Wars of conquest and extermination-- +by which nations have been made the food of the +sword. + +_Fourth_. The idea entertained by each nation that +all other nations are destitute of rights--in other + +356 + +words, patriotism founded upon egotism, prejudice, +and love of plunder. + +_Fifth_. Religious persecution. + +_Sixth_. The divine right of kings--an idea that +rests upon the inequality of human rights, and insists +that people should be governed without their con- +sent; that the right of one man to govern another +comes from God, and not from the consent of the +governed. This is caste--one of the most odious +forms of slavery. + +_Seventh_. A belief in malicious supernatural be- +ings--devils, witches, and wizards. + +_Eighth_. A belief in an infinite being who or- +dered, commanded, established and approved all +these evils. + +_Ninth_. The idea that one man can be good for +another, or bad for another--that is to say, that one +can be rewarded for the goodness of another, or +justly punished for the sins of another. + +_Tenth_. The dogma that a finite being can commit +an infinite sin, and thereby incur the eternal dis- +pleasure of an infinitely good being, and be justly +subjected to eternal torment. + +My principal objection to the Bible is that it sus- +tains all of these ten evils--that it is the advocate of + +357 + +human slavery, the friend of polygamy; that within +its pages I find the command to wage wars of ex- +termination; that I find also that the Jews were +taught to hate foreigners--to consider all human +beings as inferior to themselves; I also find persecu- +tion commanded as a religious duty; that kings were +seated upon their thrones by the direct act of God, +and that to rebel against a king was rebellion against +God. I object to the Bible also because I find within +its pages the infamous spirit of caste--I see the sons +of Levi set apart as the perpetual beggars and +governors of a people; because I find the air filled +with demons seeking to injure and betray the sons +of men; because this book is the fountain of modern +superstition, the bulwark of tyranny and the fortress +of caste. This book also subverts the idea of justice +by threatening infinite punishment for the sins of a +finite being. + +At the same time, I admit--as I always have ad- +mitted--that there are good passages in the Bible-- +good laws, good teachings, with now and then a true +line of history. But when it is asserted that every +word was written by inspiration--that a being of in- +finite wisdom and goodness is its author,--then +I raise the standard of revolt. + +358 + +_Question_. What do you think of the declaration +of Mr. Talmage that the Bible will be read in heaven +throughout all the endless ages of eternity? + +_Answer_. Of course I know but very little as to +what is or will be done in heaven. My knowledge +of that country is somewhat limited, and it may be +possible that the angels will spend most of their time +in turning over the sacred leaves of the Old Testa- +ment. I can not positively deny the statement of the +Reverend Mr. Talmage as I have but very little idea +as to how the angels manage to kill time. + +The Reverend Mr. Spurgeon stated in a sermon +that some people wondered what they would do +through all eternity in heaven. He said that, as for +himself, for the first hundred thousand years he +would look at the wound in one of the Savior's +feet, and for the next hundred thousand years he +would look at the wound in his other foot, and +for the next hundred thousand years he would +look at the wound in one of his hands, and for +the next hundred thousand years he would look at +the wound in the other hand, and for the next +hundred thousand years he would look at the wound +in his side. + +Surely, nothing could be more delightful than this + +359 + +A man capable of being happy in such employment, +could of course take great delight in reading even +the genealogies of the Old Testament. It is very +easy to see what a glow of joy would naturally over- +spread the face of an angel while reading the history +of the Jewish wars, how the seraphim and cherubim +would clasp their rosy palms in ecstasy over the fate +of Korah and his company, and what laughter would +wake the echoes of the New Jerusalem as some one +told again the story of the children and the bears; +and what happy groups, with folded pinions, would +smilingly listen to the 109th Psalm. + +[Illustration: 371] + +An orthodox "state of mind" + + + + +THE TALMAGIAN CATECHISM. + +_As Mr. Talmage delivered the series of sermons +referred to in these interviews, for the purpose +of furnishing arguments to the young, so that they +might not be misled by the sophistry of modern +infi-delity, I have thought it best to set forth, +for use in Sunday schools, the pith and marrow of +what he has been pleased to say, in the form of_ + + +A SHORTER CATECHISM. + +_Question_. Who made you? + +_Answer_. Jehovah, the original Presbyterian. + +_Question_. What else did he make? + +_Answer_. He made the world and all things. + +_Question_. Did he make the world out of nothing? + +_Answer_. No. + +_Question_. What did he make it out of? + +_Answer_. Out of his "omnipotence." Many infidels +have pretended that if God made the universe, and if +there was nothing until he did make it, he had nothing +to make it out of. Of course this is perfectly absurd +when we remember that he always had his "omnipo- +tence and that is, undoubtedly, the material used. + +364 + +_Question_. Did he create his own "omnipotence"? + +_Answer_. Certainly not, he was always omnipo- +tent. + +_Question_. Then if he always had "omnipotence," +he did not "create" the material of which the uni- +verse is made; he simply took a portion of his +"omnipotence" and changed it to "universe"? + +_Answer_. Certainly, that is the way I under- +stand it. + +_Question_. Is he still omnipotent, and has he as +much "omnipotence" now as he ever had? + +_Answer_. Well, I suppose he has. + +_Question_. How long did it take God to make the +universe? + +_Answer_. Six "good-whiles." + +_Question_. How long is a "good-while"? + +_Answer_. That will depend upon the future dis- +coveries of geologists. "Good-whiles" are of such +a nature that they can be pulled out, or pushed up; +and it is utterly impossible for any infidel, or scien- +tific geologist, to make any period that a "good-while" +won't fit. + +_Question_. What do you understand by "the +"morning and evening" of a "good-while"? + +_Answer_. Of course the words "morning and + +365 + +"evening" are used figuratively, and mean simply +the beginning and the ending, of each "good-while." + +_Question_. On what day did God make vegetation? + +_Answer_. On the third day. + +_Question_. Was that before the sun was made? + +_Answer_. Yes; a "good-while" before. + +_Question_. How did vegetation grow without sun- +light? + +_Answer_. My own opinion is, that it was either +"nourished by the glare of volcanoes in the moon +or "it may have gotten sufficient light from rivers +"of molten granite;" or, "sufficient light might have +"been emitted by the crystallization of rocks." It +has been suggested that light might have been fur- +nished by fire-flies and phosphorescent bugs and +worms, but this I regard as going too far. + +_Question_. Do you think that light emitted by +rocks would be sufficient to produce trees? + +_Answer_. Yes, with the assistance of the "Aurora +"Borealis, or even the Aurora Australis;" but with +both, most assuredly. + +_Question_. If the light of which you speak was +sufficient, why was the sun made? + +_Answer_. To keep time with. + +_Question_. What did God make man of? + +366 + +_Answer_. He made man of dust and "omnipo- +"tence." + +_Question_. Did he make a woman at the same +time that he made a man? + +_Answer_. No; he thought at one time to avoid +the necessity of making a woman, and he caused all +the animals to pass before Adam, to see what he +would call them, and to see whether a fit companion +could be found for him. Among them all, not one +suited Adam, and Jehovah immediately saw that he +would have to make an help-meet on purpose. + +_Question_. What was woman made of? + +_Answer_. She was made out of "man's side, out of +his right side," and some more "omnipotence." Infi- +dels say that she was made out of a rib, or a bone, but +that is because they do not understand Hebrew. + +_Question_. What was the object of making woman +out of man's side? + +_Answer_. So that a young man would think more +of a neighbor's girl than of his own uncle or grand- +father. + +_Question_. What did God do with Adam and Eve +after he got them done? + +_Answer_. He put them into a garden to see what +they would do. + +367 + +_Question_. Do we know where the Garden of Eden +was, and have we ever found any place where a +"river parted and became into four heads"? + +_Answer_. We are not certain where this garden +was, and the river that parted into four heads cannot +at present be found. Infidels have had a great deal +to say about these four rivers, but they will wish +they had even one, one of these days. + +_Question_. What happened to Adam and Eve in +the garden? + +_Answer_. They were tempted by a snake who was +an exceedingly good talker, and who probably came +in walking on the end of his tail. This supposition +is based upon the fact that, as a punishment, he was +condemned to crawl on his belly. Before that time, +of course, he walked upright. + +_Question_. What happened then? + +_Answer_. Our first parents gave way, ate of the +forbidden fruit, and in consequence, disease and +death entered the world. Had it not been for this, +there would have been no death and no disease. +Suicide would have been impossible, and a man +could have been blown into a thousand atoms by +dynamite, and the pieces would immediately have +come together again. Fire would have refused to + +368 + +burn and water to drown; there could have been no +hunger, no thirst; all things would have been equally +healthy. + +_Question_. Do you mean to say that there would +have been no death in the world, either of animals, +insects, or persons? + +_Answer_. Of course. + +_Question_. Do you also think that all briers and +thorns sprang from the same source, and that had +the apple not been eaten, no bush in the world +would have had a thorn, and brambles and thistles +would have been unknown? + +_Answer_. Certainly. + +_Question_. Would there have been no poisonous +plants, no poisonous reptiles? + +_Answer_. No, sir; there would have been none; +there would have been no evil in the world if Adam +and Eve had not partaken of the forbidden fruit. + +_Question_. Was the snake who tempted them to +eat, evil? + +_Answer_. Certainly. ' + +_Question_. Was he in the world before the for- +bidden fruit was eaten? + +_Answer_. Of course he was; he tempted them to +eat it + +369 + +_Question_. How, then, do you account for the fact +that, before the forbidden fruit was eaten, an evil +serpent was in the world? + +_Answer_. Perhaps apples had been eaten in other +worlds. + +_Question_. Is it not wonderful that such awful con- +sequences flowed from so small an act? + +_Answer_. It is not for you to reason about it; you +should simply remember that God is omnipotent. +There is but one way to answer these things, and +that is to admit their truth. Nothing so puts the +Infinite out of temper as to see a human being +impudent enough to rely upon his reason. The +moment we rely upon our reason, we abandon God, +and try to take care of ourselves. Whoever relies +entirely upon God, has no need of reason, and +reason has no need of him. + +_Question_. Were our first parents under the im- +mediate protection of an infinite God? + +_Answer_. They were. + +_Question_. Why did he not protect them? Why +did he not warn them of this snake? Why did he +not put them on their guard? Why did he not +make them so sharp, intellectually, that they could +not be deceived? Why did he not destroy that + +370 + +snake; or how did he come to make him; what did +he make him for? + +_Answer_. You must remember that, although God +made Adam and Eve perfectly good, still he was very +anxious to test them. He also gave them the power +of choice, knowing at the same time exactly what they +would choose, and knowing that he had made them +so that they must choose in a certain way. A being +of infinite wisdom tries experiments. Knowing ex- +actly what will happen, he wishes to see if it will. + +_Question_. What punishment did God inflict upon +Adam and Eve for the sin of having eaten the for- +bidden fruit? + +_Answer_. He pronounced a curse upon the woman, +saying that in sorrow she should bring forth children, +and that her husband should rule over her; that she, +having tempted her husband, was made his slave; +and through her, all married women have been de- +prived of their natural liberty. On account of the +sin of Adam and Eve, God cursed the ground, saying +that it should bring forth thorns and thistles, and +that man should eat his bread in sorrow, and that he +should eat the herb of the field. + +_Question_. Did he turn them out of the garden +because of their sin? + +371 + +_Answer_. No. The reason God gave for turning +them out of the garden was: "Behold the man is +"become as one of us, to know good and evil; and +"now, lest he put forth his hand and take of the +"tree of life and eat and live forever, therefore, the +"Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden +"to till the ground from whence he was taken." + +_Question_. If the man had eaten of the tree of life, +would he have lived forever? + +_Answer_. Certainly. + +_Question_. Was he turned out to prevent his +eating? + +_Answer_. He was. + +_Question_. Then the Old Testament tells us how we +lost immortality, not that we are immortal, does it? + +_Answer_. Yes; it tells us how we lost it. + +_Question_. Was God afraid that Adam and Eve +might get back into the garden, and eat of the fruit +of the tree of life? + +_Answer_. I suppose he was, as he placed "cher- +"ubim and a flaming sword which turned every +"way to guard the tree of life." + +_Question_. Has any one ever seen any of these +cherubim? + +_Answer_. Not that I know of. + +372 + +_Question_. Where is the flaming sword now? + +_Answer_. Some angel has it in heaven. + +_Question_. Do you understand that God made +coats of skins, and clothed Adam and Eve when +he turned them out of the garden? + +_Answer_. Yes, sir. + +_Question_. Do you really believe that the infinite +God killed some animals, took their skins from them, +cut out and sewed up clothes for Adam and Eve? + +_Answer_. The Bible says so; we know that he +had patterns for clothes, because he showed some +to Moses on Mount Sinai. + +_Question_. About how long did God continue +to pay particular attention to his children in this +world? + +_Answer_. For about fifteen hundred years; and +some of the people lived to be nearly a thousand +years of age. + +_Question_. Did this God establish any schools or +institutions of learning? Did he establish any church? +Did he ordain any ministers, or did he have any re- +vivals? + +_Answer_. No; he allowed the world to go on +pretty much in its own way. He did not even keep +his own boys at home. They came down and made + +373 + +love to the daughters of men, and finally the world +got exceedingly bad. + +_Question_. What did God do then? + +_Answer_. He made up his mind that he would drown +them. You see they were all totally depraved,--in +every joint and sinew of their bodies, in every drop +of their blood, and in every thought of their brains. + +_Question_. Did he drown them all? + +_Answer_. No, he saved eight, to start with again. + +_Question_. Were these eight persons totally de- +praved? + +_Answer_. Yes. + +_Question_. Why did he not kill them, and start +over again with a perfect pair? Would it not have +been better to have had his flood at first, before he +made anybody, and drowned the snake? + +_Answer_. "God's way are not our ways;" and +besides, you must remember that "a thousand years +"are as one day" with God. + +_Question_. How did God destroy the people? + +_Answer_. By water; it rained forty days and forty +nights, and "the fountains of the great deep were +"broken up." + +_Question_. How deep was the water? + +_Answer_. About five miles. + +374 + +_Question_. How much did it rain each day? + +_Answer_. About eight hundred feet; though the +better opinion now is, that it was a local flood. In- +fidels have raised objections and pressed them to that +degree that most orthodox people admit that the +flood was rather local. + +_Question_. If it was a local flood, why did they put +birds of the air into the ark? Certainly, birds could +have avoided a local flood? + +_Answer_. If you take this away from us, what do +you propose to give us in its place? Some of the +best people of the world have believed this story. +Kind husbands, loving mothers, and earnest patriots +have believed it, and that is sufficient. + +_Question_. At the time God made these people, +did he know that he would have to drown them all? + +_Answer_. Of course he did. + +_Question_. Did he know when he made them that +they would all be failures? + +_Answer_. Of course. + +_Question_. Why, then, did he make them? + +_Answer_. He made them for his own glory, and +no man should disgrace his parents by denying it. + +_Question_. Were the people after the flood just as +bad as they were before? + +375 + +_Answer_. About the same. + +_Question_. Did they try to circumvent God? + +_Answer_. They did. + +_Question_. How? + +_Answer_. They got together for the purpose of build- +ing a tower, the top of which should reach to heaven, +so that they could laugh at any future floods, and go +to heaven at any time they desired. + +_Question_. Did God hear about this? + +_Answer_. He did. + +_Question_. What did he say? + +_Answer_. He said: "Go to; let us go down," and +see what the people are doing; I am satisfied they +will succeed. + +_Question_. How were the people prevented from +succeeding? + +_Answer_. God confounded their language, so that +the mason on top could not cry "mort'!" to the +hod-carrier below; he could not think of the word +to use, to save his life, and the building stopped. + +_Question_. If it had not been for the confusion of +tongues at Babel, do you really think that all the +people in the world would have spoken just the same +language, and would have pronounced every word +precisely the same? + +376 + +_Answer_. Of course. + +_Question_. If it had not been, then, for the con- +fusion of languages, spelling books, grammars and +dictionaries would have been useless? + +_Answer_. I suppose so. + +_Question_. Do any two people in the whole world +speak the same language, now? + +_Answer_. Of course they don't, and this is one of +the great evidences that God introduced confusion +into the languages. Every error in grammar, every +mistake in spelling, every blunder in pronunciation, +proves the truth of the Babel story. + +_Question_. This being so, this miracle is the best +attested of all? + +_Answer_. I suppose it is. + +_Question_. Do you not think that a confusion of +tongues would bring men together instead of separa- +ting them? Would not a man unable to converse +with his fellow feel weak instead of strong; and +would not people whose language had been con- +founded cling together for mutual support? + +_Answer_. According to nature, yes; according to +theology, no; and these questions must be answered +according to theology. And right here, it may be +well enough to state, that in theology the unnatural + +377 + +is the probable, and the impossible is what has always +happened. If theology were simply natural, anybody +could be a theologian. + +_Question_. Did God ever make any other special +efforts to convert the people, or to reform the world? + +_Answer_. Yes, he destroyed the cities of Sodom +and Gomorrah with a storm of fire and brimstone. + +_Question_. Do you suppose it was really brim- +stone? + +_Answer_. Undoubtedly. + +_Question_. Do you think this brimstone came from +the clouds? + +_Answer_. Let me tell you that you have no right +to examine the Bible in the light of what people are +pleased to call "science." The natural has nothing +to do with the supernatural. Naturally there would +be no brimstone in the clouds, but supernaturally +there might be. God could make brimstone out of +his "omnipotence." We do not know really what +brimstone is, and nobody knows exactly how brim- +stone is made. As a matter of fact, all the brimstone +in the world might have fallen at that time. + +_Question_. Do you think that Lot's wife was +changed into salt? + +_Answer_. Of course she was. A miracle was per- + +378 + +formed. A few centuries ago, the statue of salt made +by changing Lot's wife into that article, was standing. +Christian travelers have seen it. + +_Question_. Why do you think she was changed +into salt? + +_Answer_. For the purpose of keeping the event +fresh in the minds of men. + +_Question_. God having failed to keep people in- +nocent in a garden; having failed to govern them +outside of a garden; having failed to reform them by +water; having failed to produce any good result by a +confusion of tongues; having failed to reform them +with fire and brimstone, what did he then do? + +_Answer_. He concluded that he had no time to +waste on them all, but that he would have to select +one tribe, and turn his entire attention to just a few +folks. + +_Question_. Whom did he select? + +_Answer_. A man by the name of Abram. + +_Question_. What kind of man was Abram? + +_Answer_. If you wish to know, read the twelfth +chapter of Genesis; and if you still have any doubts +as to his character, read the twentieth chapter of the +same book, and you will see that he was a man who +made merchandise of his wife's body. He had had + +379 + +such good fortune in Egypt, that he tried the experi- +ment again on Abimelech. + +_Question_. Did Abraham show any gratitude? + +_Answer_. Yes; he offered to sacrifice his son, to +show his confidence in Jehovah. + +_Question_. What became of Abraham and his +people? + +_Answer_. God took such care of them, that in +about two hundred and fifteen years they were all +slaves in the land of Egypt. + +_Question_. How long did they remain in slavery? + +_Answer_. Two hundred and fifteen years. + +_Question_. Were they the same people that God +had promised to take care of? + +_Answer_. They were. + +_Question_. Was God at that time, in favor of +slavery? + +_Answer_. Not at that time. He was angry at the +Egyptians for enslaving the Jews, but he afterwards +authorized the Jews to enslave other people. + +_Question_. What means did he take to liberate +the Jews? + +_Answer_. He sent his agents to Pharaoh, and de- +manded their freedom; and upon Pharaoh s refusing, +he afflicted the people, who had nothing to do with + +380 + +it, with various plagues,--killed children, and tor- +mented and tortured beasts. + +_Question_. Was such conduct Godlike? + +_Answer_. Certainly. If you have anything against +your neighbor, it is perfectly proper to torture his +horse, or torment his dog. Nothing can be nobler +than this. You see it is much better to injure his +animals than to injure him. To punish animals for +the sins of their owners must be just, or God would +not have done it. Pharaoh insisted on keeping the +people in slavery, and therefore God covered the +bodies of oxen and cows with boils. He also bruised +them to death with hailstones. From this we infer, +that "the loving kindness of God is over all his works." + +_Question_. Do you consider such treatment of ani- +mals consistent with divine mercy? + +_Answer_. Certainly. You know that under the +Mosaic dispensation, when a man did a wrong, he +could settle with God by killing an ox, or a sheep, +or some doves. If the man failed to kill them, of +course God would kill them. It was upon this prin- +ciple that he destroyed the animals of the Egyptians. +They had sinned, and he merely took his pay. + +_Question_. How was it possible, under the old dis- +pensation, to please a being of infinite kindness? + +381 + +_Answer_. All you had to do was to take an innocent +animal, bring it to the altar, cut its throat, and sprinkle +the altar with its blood. Certain parts of it were to be +given to the butcher as his share, and the rest was to +be burnt on the altar. When God saw an animal thus +butchered, and smelt the warm blood mingled with +the odor of burning flesh, he was pacified, and the +smile of forgiveness shed its light upon his face. +Of course, infidels laugh at these things; but what +can you expect of men who have not been "born +"again"? "The carnal mind is enmity with God." +_Question_. What else did God do in order to in- +duce Pharaoh to liberate the Jews? + +_Answer_. He had his agents throw down a cane +in the presence of Pharaoh and thereupon Jehovah +changed this cane into a serpent. + +_Question_. Did this convince Pharaoh? + +_Answer_. No; he sent for his own magicians. +_Question_. What did they do? + +_Answer_. They threw down some canes and they +also were changed into serpents. + +_Question_. Did Jehovah change the canes of the +Egyptian magicians into snakes? + +_Answer_. I suppose he did, as he is the only one +capable of performing such a miracle. + +382 + +_Question_. If the rod of Aaron was changed into +a serpent in order to convince Pharaoh that God had +sent Aaron and Moses, why did God change the +sticks of the Egyptian magicians into serpents--why +did he discredit his own agents, and render worth- +less their only credentials? + +_Answer_. Well, we cannot explain the conduct of +Jehovah; we are perfectly satisfied that it was for +the best. Even in this age of the world God allows +infidels to overwhelm his chosen people with argu- +ments; he allows them to discover facts that his +ministers can not answer, and yet we are satisfied +that in the end God will give the victory to us. All +these things are tests of faith. It is upon this prin- +ciple that God allows geology to laugh at Genesis, +that he permits astronomy apparently to contradict +his holy word. + +_Question_. What did God do with these people +after Pharaoh allowed them to go? + +_Answer_. Finding that they were not fit to settle +a new country, owing to the fact that when hungry +they longed for food, and sometimes when their lips +were cracked with thirst insisted on having water, +God in his infinite mercy had them marched round +and round, back and forth, through a barren wilder- + +383 + +ness, until all, with the exception of two persons, +died. + +_Question_. Why did he do this? + +_Answer_. Because he had promised these people +that he would take them "to a land flowing with +"milk and honey." + +_Question_. Was God always patient and kind and +merciful toward his children while they were in the +wilderness? + +_Answer_. Yes, he always was merciful and kind +and patient. Infidels have taken the ground that he +visited them with plagues and disease and famine; +that he had them bitten by serpents, and now and +then allowed the ground to swallow a few thousands +of them, and in other ways saw to it that they were +kept as comfortable and happy as was consistent with +good government; but all these things were for their +good; and the fact is, infidels have no real sense of +justice. + +_Question_. How did God happen to treat the Is- +raelites in this way, when he had promised Abraham +that he would take care of his progeny, and when he +had promised the same to the poor wretches while +they were slaves in Egypt? + +_Answer_. Because God is unchangeable in his na- + +384 + +ture, and wished to convince them that every being +should be perfectly faithful to his promise. + +_Question_. Was God driven to madness by the +conduct of his chosen people? + +_Answer_. Almost. + +_Question_. Did he know exactly what they would +do when he chose them? + +_Answer_. Exactly. + +_Question_. Were the Jews guilty of idolatry? + +_Answer_. They were. They worshiped other gods +--gods made of wood and stone. + +_Question_. Is it not wonderful that they were not +convinced of the power of God, by the many mira- +cles wrought in Egypt and in the wilderness? + +_Answer_. Yes, it is very wonderful; but the Jews, +who must have seen bread rained from heaven; who +saw water gush from the rocks and follow them up hill +and down; who noticed that their clothes did not +wear out, and did not even get shiny at the knees, +while the elbows defied the ravages of time, and +their shoes remained perfect for forty years; it is +wonderful that when they saw the ground open +and swallow their comrades; when they saw God +talking face to face with Moses as a man talks with +his friend; after they saw the cloud by day and the + +385 + +pillar of fire by night,--it is absolutely astonishing +that they had more faith in a golden calf that they +made themselves, than in Jehovah. + +_Question_. How is it that the Jews had no confi- +dence in these miracles? + +_Answer_. Because they were there and saw them. + +_Question_. Do you think that it is necessary for +us to believe all the miracles of the Old Testament +in order to be saved? + +_Answer_. The Old Testament is the foundation of +the New. If the Old Testament is not inspired, then +the New is of no value. If the Old Testament is +inspired, all the miracles are true, and we cannot +believe that God would allow any errors, or false +statements, to creep into an inspired volume, and to +be perpetuated through all these years. + +_Question_. Should we believe the miracles, whether +they are reasonable or not? + +_Answer_. Certainly; if they were reasonable, they +would not be miracles. It is their unreasonableness +that appeals to our credulity and our faith. It is im- +possible to have theological faith in anything that +can be demonstrated. It is the office of faith to +believe, not only without evidence, but in spite of +evidence. It is impossible for the carnal mind to + +386 + +believe that Samsons muscle depended upon the +length of his hair. "God has made the wisdom of +"this world foolishness." Neither can the uncon- +verted believe that Elijah stopped at a hotel kept by +ravens. Neither can they believe that a barrel would +in and of itself produce meal, or that an earthen pot +could create oil. But to a Christian, in order that a +widow might feed a preacher, the truth of these +stories is perfectly apparent. + +_Question_. How should we regard the wonderful +stories of the Old Testament? + +_Answer_. They should be looked upon as "types" +and "symbols." They all have a spiritual signifi- +cance. The reason I believe the story of Jonah is, +that Jonah is a type of Christ. + +_Question_. Do you believe the story of Jonah to +be a true account of a literal fact? + +_Answer_. Certainly. You must remember that +Jonah was not swallowed by a whale. God "pre- +"pared a great fish" for that occasion. Neither is it by +any means certain that Jonah was in the belly of +this whale. "He probably stayed in his mouth." +Even if he was in his stomach, it was very easy +for him to defy the ordinary action of gastric juice +by rapidly walking up and down.. + +387 + +_Question_. Do you think that Jonah was really in +the whale's stomach? + +_Answer_. My own opinion is that he stayed in his +mouth. The only objection to this theory is, that it +is more reasonable than the other and requires less +faith. Nothing could be easier than for God to make +a fish large enough to furnish ample room for one +passenger in his mouth. I throw out this suggestion +simply that you may be able to answer the objections +of infidels who are always laughing at this story. + +_Question_. Do you really believe that Elijah went +to heaven in a chariot of fire, drawn by horses of +fire? + +_Answer_. Of course he did. + +_Question_. What was this miracle performed for? + +_Answer_. To convince the people of the power of +God. + +_Question_. Who saw the miracle? + +_Answer_. Nobody but Elisha. + +_Question_. Was he convinced before that time? + +_Answer_. Oh yes; he was one of God's prophets. + +_Question_. Suppose that in these days two men +should leave a town together, and after a while one +of them should come back having on the clothes of +the other, and should account for the fact that he had + +388 + +his friend's clothes by saying that while they were +going along the road together a chariot of fire came +down from heaven drawn by fiery steeds, and there- +upon his friend got into the carriage, threw him his +clothes, and departed,--would you believe it? + +_Answer_. Of course things like that don't happen +in these days; God does not have to rely on wonders +now. + +_Question_. Do you mean that he performs no +miracles at the present day? + +_Answer_. We cannot say that he does not perform +miracles now, but we are not in position to call atten- +tion to any particular one. Of course he supervises +the affairs of nations and men and does whatever in +his judgment is necessary. + +_Question_. Do you think that Samson's strength +depended on the length of his hair? + +_Answer_. The Bible so states, and the Bible is true. +A physiologist might say that a man could not use +the muscle in his hair for lifting purposes, but these +same physiologists could not tell you how you move +a finger, nor how you lift a feather; still, actuated by +the pride of intellect, they insist that the length of a +man's hair could not determine his strength. God +says it did; the physiologist says that it did not; we + +389 + +can not hesitate whom to believe. For the purpose +of avoiding eternal agony I am willing to believe +anything; I am willing to say that strength depends +upon the length of hair, or faith upon the length of +ears. I am perfectly willing to believe that a man +caught three hundred foxes, and put fire brands be- +tween their tails; that he slew thousands with a bone, +and that he made a bee hive out of a lion. I will +believe, if necessary, that when this man's hair was +short he hardly had strength enough to stand, and +that when it was long, he could carry away the gates +of a city, or overthrow a temple filled with people. +If the infidel is right, I will lose nothing by believing, +but if he is wrong, I shall gain an eternity of joy. +If God did not intend that we should believe these +stories, he never would have told them, and why +should a man put his soul in peril by trying to dis- +prove one of the statements of the Lord? + +_Question_. Suppose it should turn out that some +of these miracles depend upon mistranslations of the +original Hebrew, should we still believe them? + +_Answer_. The safe side is the best side. It is +far better to err on the side of belief, than on the +side of infidelity. God does not threaten anybody +with eternal punishment for believing too much. + +390 + +Danger lies on the side of investigation, on the +side of thought. The perfectly idiotic are absolutely +safe. As they diverge from that point,--as they rise +in the intellectual scale, as the brain develops, as the +faculties enlarge, the danger increases. I know that +some biblical students now take the ground that +Samson caught no foxes,--that he only took sheaves +of wheat that had been already cut and bound, set +them on fire, and threw them into the grain still +standing. If this is what he did, of course there is +nothing miraculous about it, and the value of the +story is lost. So, others contend that Elijah was not +fed by the ravens, but by the Arabs. They tell us +that the Hebrew word standing for "Arab" also +stands for "bird," and that the word really means +"migratory--going from place to place--homeless." +But I prefer the old version. It certainly will do no +harm to believe that ravens brought bread and flesh +to a prophet of God. Where they got their bread +and flesh is none of my business; how they knew +where the prophet was, and recognized him; or how +God talks to ravens, or how he gave them directions, +I have no right to inquire. I leave these questions +to the scientists, the blasphemers, and thinkers. +There are many people in the church anxious to + +391 + +get the miracles out of the Bible, and thousands, +I have no doubt, would be greatly gratified to learn +that there is, in fact, nothing miraculous in Scripture; +but when you take away the miraculous, you take +away the supernatural; when you take away the +supernatural, you destroy the ministry; and when +you take away the ministry, hundreds of thousands +of men will be left without employment. + +_Question_. Is it not wonderful that the Egyptians +were not converted by the miracles wrought in their +country? + +_Answer_. Yes, they all would have been, if God +had not purposely hardened their hearts to prevent +it. Jehovah always took great delight in furnishing +the evidence, and then hardening the man's heart so +that he would not believe it. After all the miracles +that had been performed in Egypt,--the most won- +derful that were ever done in any country, the +Egyptians were as unbelieving as at first; they pur- +sued the Israelites, knowing that they were protected +by an infinite God, and failing to overwhelm them, +came back and worshiped their own false gods just as +firmly as before. All of which shows the unreason- +ableness of a Pagan, and the natural depravity of +human nature. + +392 + +_Question_. How did it happen that the Canaanites +were never convinced that the Jews were assisted by +Jehovah? + +_Answer_. They must have been an exceedingly +brave people to contend so many years with the +chosen people of God. Notwithstanding all their +cities were burned time and time again; notwith- +standing all the men, women and children were put +to the edge of the sword; notwithstanding the taking +of all their cattle and sheep, they went right on +fighting just as valiantly and desperately as ever. +Each one lost his life many times, and was just as +ready for the next conflict. My own opinion is, that +God kept them alive by raising them from the dead +after each battle, for the purpose of punishing the +Jews. God used his enemies as instruments for the +civilization of the Jewish people. He did not wish +to convert them, because they would give him much +more trouble as Jews than they did as Canaanites. +He had all the Jews he could conveniently take care +of. He found it much easier to kill a hundred +Canaanites than to civilize one Jew. + +_Question_. How do you account for the fact that +the heathen were not surprised at the stopping of the +sun and moon? + +393 + +_Answer_. They were so ignorant that they had +not the slightest conception of the real cause of +the phenomenon. Had they known the size of +the earth, and the relation it sustained to the other +heavenly bodies; had they known the magnitude of +the sun, and the motion of the moon, they would, +in all probability, have been as greatly astonished as +the Jews were; but being densely ignorant of as- +tronomy, it must have produced upon them not the +slightest impression. But we must remember that +the sun and moon were not stopped for the purpose +of converting these people, but to give Joshua more +time to kill them. As soon as we see clearly the +purpose of Jehovah, we instantly perceive how ad- +mirable were the means adopted. + +_Question_. Do you not consider the treatment +of the Canaanites to have been cruel and ferocious? + +_Answer_. To a totally depraved man, it does look +cruel; to a being without any good in him,--to one +who has inherited the rascality of many generations, +the murder of innocent women and little children +does seem horrible; to one who is "contaminated in +"all his parts," by original sin,--who was "conceived +"in sin, and brought forth in iniquity," the assassina- +tion of men, and the violation of captive maidens, + +394 + +do not seem consistent with infinite goodness. But +when one has been "born again," when "the love +"of God has been shed abroad in his heart," when +he loves all mankind, when he "overcomes evil with +"good," when he "prays for those who despite- +"fully use him and persecute him,"--to such a man, +the extermination of the Canaanites, the violation +of women, the slaughter of babes, and the destruc- +tion of countless thousands, is the highest evidence +of the goodness, the mercy, and the long-suffering +of God. When a man has been "born again," all +the passages of the Old Testament that appear so +horrible and so unjust to one in his natural state, +become the dearest, the most consoling, and the +most beautiful of truths. The real Christian reads +the accounts of these ancient battles with the greatest +possible satisfaction. To one who really loves his +enemies, the groans of men, the shrieks of women, +and the cries of babes, make music sweeter than the +zephyr's breath. + +_Question_. In your judgment, why did God destroy +the Canaanites? + +_Answer_. To prevent their contaminating his +chosen people. He knew that if the Jews were +allowed to live with such neighbors, they would + +395 + +finally become as bad as the Canaanites themselves. +He wished to civilize his chosen people, and it was +therefore necessary for him to destroy the heathen. + +_Question_. Did God succeed in civilizing the Jews +after he had "removed" the Canaanites? + +_Answer_. Well, not entirely. He had to allow the +heathen he had not destroyed to overrun the whole +land and make captives of the Jews. This was done +for the good of his chosen people. + +_Question_. Did he then succeed in civilizing them? + +_Answer_. Not quite. + +_Question_. Did he ever quite succeed in civilizing +them? + +_Answer_. Well, we must admit that the experi- +ment never was a conspicuous success. The Jews +were chosen by the Almighty 430 years before he +appeared to Moses on Mount Sinai. He was their +direct Governor. He attended personally to their +religion and politics, and gave up a great part of his +valuable time for about two thousand years, to the +management of their affairs; and yet, such was the +condition of the Jewish people, after they had had all +these advantages, that when there arose among them +a perfectly kind, just, generous and honest man, these +people, with whom God had been laboring for so + +396 + +many centuries, deliberately put to death that good +and loving man. + +_Question_. Do you think that God really endeav- +ored to civilize the Jews? + +_Answer_. This is an exceedingly hard question. +If he had really tried to do it, of course he could +have done it. We must not think of limiting the +power of the infinite. But you must remember that +if he had succeeded in civilizing the Jews, if he had +educated them up to the plane of intellectual liberty, +and made them just and kind and merciful, like him- +self, they would not have crucified Christ, and you +can see at once the awful condition in which we +would all be to-day. No atonement could have +been made; and if no atonement had been made, +then, according to the Christian system, the whole +world would have been lost. We must admit that +there was no time in the history of the Jews from +Sinai to Jerusalem, that they would not have put a +man like Christ to death. + +_Question_. So you think that, after all, it was not +God's intention that the Jews should become civilized? + +_Answer_. We do not know. We can only say +that "God's ways are not our ways." It may be +that God took them in his special charge, for the + +397 + +purpose of keeping them bad enough to make the +necessary sacrifice. That may have been the divine +plan. In any event, it is safer to believe the explana- +tion that is the most unreasonable. + +_Question_. Do you think that Christ knew the +Jews would crucify him? + +_Answer_. Certainly. + +_Question_. Do you think that when he chose +Judas he knew that he would betray him? + +_Answer_. Certainly. + +_Question_. Did he know when Judas went to the +chief priest and made the bargain for the delivery +of Christ? + +_Answer_. Certainly. + +_Question_. Why did he allow himself to be be- +trayed, if he knew the plot? + +_Answer_. Infidelity is a very good doctrine to live +by, but you should read the last words of Paine and +Voltaire. + +_Question_. If Christ knew that Judas would betray +him, why did he choose him? + +_Answer_. Nothing can exceed the atrocities of the +French Revolution--when they carried a woman +through the streets and worshiped her as the goddess +of Reason. + +398 + +_Question_. Would not the mission of Christ have +been a failure had no one betrayed him? + +_Answer_. Thomas Paine was a drunkard, and re- +canted on his death-bed, and died a blaspheming +infidel besides. + +_Question_. Is it not clear that an atonement was +necessary; and is it not equally clear that the atone- +ment could not have been made unless somebody +had betrayed Christ; and unless the Jews had been +wicked and orthodox enough to crucify him? + +_Answer_. Of course the atonement had to be +made. It was a part of the "divine plan" that Christ +should be betrayed, and that the Jews should be +wicked enough to kill him. Otherwise, the world +would have been lost. + +_Question_. Suppose Judas had understood the +divine plan, what ought he to have done? Should +he have betrayed Christ, or let somebody else do it; +or should he have allowed the world to perish, in- +cluding his own soul? + +_Answer_. If you take the Bible away from the +world, "how would it be possible to have witnesses +"sworn in courts;" how would it be possible to ad- +minister justice? + +_Question_. If Christ had not been betrayed and + +399 + +crucified, is it true that his own mother would be in +perdition to-day? + +_Answer_. Most assuredly. There was but one +way by which she could be saved, and that was by +the death of her son--through the blood of the +atonement. She was totally depraved through the +sin of Adam, and deserved eternal death. Even her +love for the infant Christ was, in the sight of God,-- +that is to say, of her babe,--wickedness. It can not +be repeated too often that there is only one way to +be saved, and that is, to believe in the Lord Jesus +Christ. + +_Question_. Could Christ have prevented the Jews +from crucifying him? + +_Answer_. He could. + +_Question_. If he could have saved his life and did +not, was he not guilty of suicide? + +_Answer_. No one can understand these questions +who has not read the prophecies of Daniel, and has +not a clear conception of what is meant by "the full- +"ness of time." + +_Question_. What became of all the Canaanites, the +Egyptians, the Hindus, the Greeks and Romans and +Chinese? What became of the billions who died +before the promise was made to Abraham; of the + +400 + +billions and billions who never heard of the Bible, +who never heard the name, even, of Jesus Christ-- +never knew of "the scheme of salvation"? What +became of the millions and billions who lived in this +hemisphere, and of whose existence Jehovah himself +seemed perfectly ignorant? + +_Answer_. They were undoubtedly lost. God +having made them, had a right to do with them as +he pleased. They are probably all in hell to-day, and +the fact that they are damned, only adds to the joy +of the redeemed. It is by contrast that we are able +to perceive the infinite kindness with which God has +treated us. + +_Question_. Is it not possible that something can +be done for a human soul in another world as well as +in this? + +_Answer_. No; this is the only world in which +God even attempts to reform anybody. In the +other world, nothing is done for the purpose of +making anybody better. Here in this world, where +man lives but a few days, is the only opportunity +for moral improvement. A minister can do a thou- +sand times more for a soul than its creator; and this +country is much better adapted to moral growth than +heaven itself. A person who lived on this earth a + +401 + +few years, and died without having been converted, +has no hope in another world. The moment he arrives +at the judgment seat, nothing remains but to damn +him. Neither God, nor the Holy Ghost, nor Jesus +Christ, can have the least possible influence with +him there. + +_Question_. When God created each human being, +did he know exactly what would be his eternal fate? + +_Answer_. Most assuredly he did. + +_Question_. Did he know that hundreds and millions +and billions would suffer eternal pain? + +_Answer_. Certainly. But he gave them freedom +of choice between good and evil. + +_Question_. Did he know exactly how they would +use that freedom? + +_Answer_. Yes. + +_Question_. Did he know that billions would use +it wrong? + +_Answer_. Yes. + +_Question_. Was it optional with him whether he +should make such people or not? + +_Answer_. Certainly. + +_Question_. Had these people any option as to +whether they would be made or not? + +_Answer_, No. + +402 + +_Question_. Would it not have been far better to +leave them unconscious dust? + +_Answer_. These questions show how foolish it is +to judge God according to a human standard. What +to us seems just and merciful, God may regard in an +exactly opposite light; and we may hereafter be +developed to such a degree that we will regard the +agonies of the damned as the highest possible evi- +dence of the goodness and mercy of God. + +_Question_. How do you account for the fact that +God did not make himself known except to Abra- +ham and his descendants? Why did he fail to +reveal himself to the other nations--nations that, +compared with the Jews, were learned, cultivated +and powerful? Would you regard a revelation now +made to the Esquimaux as intended for us; and +would it be a revelation of which we would be +obliged to take notice? + +_Answer_. Of course, God could have revealed him- +self, not only to all the great nations, but to each +individual. He could have had the Ten Command- +ments engraved on every heart and brain; or he +could have raised up prophets in every land; but +he chose, rather, to allow countless millions of his +children to wander in the darkness and blackness of + +403 + +Nature; chose, rather, that they should redden their +hands in each other's blood; chose, rather, that they +should live without light, and die without hope; +chose, rather, that they should suffer, not only in this +world, but forever in the next. Of course we have +no right to find fault with the choice of God. + +_Question_. Now you can tell a sinner to "believe +"on the Lord Jesus Christ;" what could a sinner have +been told in Egypt, three thousand years ago; and +in what language would you have addressed a Hindu +in the days of Buddha--the "divine scheme" at that +time being a secret in the divine breast? + +_Answer_. It is not for us to think upon these +questions. The moment we examine the Christian +system, we begin to doubt. In a little while, we shall +be infidels, and shall lose the respect of those who +refuse to think. It is better to go with the majority. +These doctrines are too sacred to be touched. You +should be satisfied with the religion of your father +and your mother. "You want some book on the +"centre-table," in the parlor; it is extremely handy +to have a Family Record; and what book, other than +the Bible, could a mother give a son as he leaves the +old homestead? + +_Question_. Is it not wonderful that all the writers + +404 + +of the four gospels do not give an account of the +ascension of Jesus Christ? + +_Answer_. This question has been answered long +ago, time and time again. + +_Question_. Perhaps it has, but would it not be +well enough to answer it once more? Some may +not have seen the answer? + +_Answer_. Show me the hospitals that infidels +have built; show me the asylums that infidels +have founded. + +_Question_. I know you have given the usual an- +swer; but after all, is it not singular that a miracle +so wonderful as the bodily ascension of a man, should +not have been mentioned by all the writers of that +man's life? Is it not wonderful that some of them +said that he did ascend, and others that he agreed to +stay with his disciples always? + +_Answer_. People unacquainted with the Hebrew, +can have no conception of these things. A story +in plain English, does not sound as it does in Hebrew. +Miracles seem altogether more credible, when told in +a dead language. + +_Question_. What, in your judgment, became of +the dead who were raised by Christ? Is it not +singular that they were never mentioned afterward? + +405 + +Would not a man who had been raised from the +dead naturally be an object of considerable interest, +especially to his friends and acquaintances? And +is it not also wonderful that Christ, after having +wrought so many miracles, cured so many lame and +halt and blind, fed so many thousands miraculously, +and after having entered Jerusalem in triumph as a +conqueror and king, had to be pointed out by one +of his own disciples who was bribed for the purpose? + +_Answer_. Of course, all these things are exceed- +ingly wonderful, and if found in any other book, +would be absolutely incredible; but we have no +right to apply the same kind of reasoning to the +Bible that we apply to the Koran or to the sacred +books of the Hindus. For the ordinary affairs of +this world, God has given us reason; but in the +examination of religious questions, we should de- +pend upon credulity and faith. + +_Question_. If Christ came to offer himself a sacri- +fice, for the purpose of making atonement for the +sins of such as might believe on him, why did he +not make this fact known to all of his disciples? + +_Answer_. He did. This was, and is, the gospel. + +_Question_. How is it that Matthew says nothing +about "salvation by faith," but simply says that God + +406 + +will be merciful to the merciful, that he will forgive +the forgiving, and says not one word about the +necessity of believing anything? + +_Answer_. But you will remember that Mark says, +in the last chapter of his gospel, that "whoso be- +"lieveth not shall be damned." + +_Question_. Do you admit that Matthew says +nothing on the subject? + +_Answer_. Yes, I suppose I must. + +_Question_. Is not that passage in Mark generally +admitted to be an interpolation? + +_Answer_. Some biblical scholars say that it is. + +_Question_. Is that portion of the last chapter of +Mark found in the Syriac version of the Bible? + +_Answer_. It is not. + +_Question_. If it was necessary to believe on Jesus +Christ, in order to be saved, how is it that Matthew +failed to say so? + +_Answer_. "There are more copies of the Bible +"printed to-day, than of any other book in the world, +"and it is printed in more languages than any other +"book." + +_Question_. Do you consider it necessary to be +"regenerated"--to be "born again"--in order to be +saved? + +407 + +_Answer_. Certainly. + +_Question_. Did Matthew say anything on the sub- +ject of "regeneration"? + +_Answer_. No. + +_Question_. Did Mark? + +_Answer_. No. + +_Question_. Did Luke? + +_Answer_. No. + +_Question_. Is Saint John the only one who speaks +of the necessity of being "born again"? + +_Answer_. He is. + +_Question_. Do you think that Matthew, Mark and +Luke knew anything about the necessity of "regen- +"eration"? + +_Answer_. Of course they did. + +_Question_. Why did they fail to speak of it? + +_Answer_. There is no civilization without the Bible. +The moment you throw away the sacred Scriptures, +you are all at sea--you are without an anchor and +without a compass. + +_Question_. You will remember that, according to +Mark, Christ said to his disciples: "Go ye into all +"the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." +Did he refer to the gospel set forth by Mark? + +_Answer_. Of course he did. + +408 + +_Question_. Well, in the gospel set forth by Mark, +there is not a word about "regeneration," and no +word about the necessity of believing anything--ex- +cept in an interpolated passage. Would it not seem +from this, that "regeneration" and a "belief in the +"Lord Jesus Christ," are no part of the gospel? + +_Answer_. Nothing can exceed in horror the last +moments of the infidel; nothing can be more ter- +rible than the death of the doubter. When the +glories of this world fade from the vision; when am- +bition becomes an empty name; when wealth turns +to dust in the palsied hand of death, of what use is +philosophy then? Who cares then for the pride of +intellect? In that dread moment, man needs some- +thing to rely on, whether it is true or not. + +_Question_. Would it not have been more con- +vincing if Christ, after his resurrection, had shown +himself to his enemies as well as to his friends? +Would it not have greatly strengthened the evidence +in the case, if he had visited Pilate; had presented +himself before Caiaphas, the high priest; if he had +again entered the temple, and again walked the +streets of Jerusalem? + +_Answer_. If the evidence had been complete and +overwhelming, there would have been no praise- + +409 + +worthiness in belief; even publicans and sinners +would have believed, if the evidence had been suffi- +cient. The amount of evidence required is the test +of the true Christian spirit. + +_Question_. Would it not also have been better +had the ascension taken place in the presence of +unbelieving thousands; it seems such a pity to have +wasted such a demonstration upon those already +convinced? + +_Answer_. These questions are the natural fruit of +the carnal mind, and can be accounted for only by +the doctrine of total depravity. Nothing has given +the church more trouble than just such questions. +Unholy curiosity, a disposition to pry into the divine +mysteries, a desire to know, to investigate, to explain +--in short, to understand, are all evidences of a re- +probate mind. + +_Question_. How can we account for the fact that +Matthew alone speaks of the wise men of the East +coming with gifts to the infant Christ; that he alone +speaks of the little babes being killed by Herod? Is +it possible that the other writers never heard of these +things? + +_Answer_. Nobody can get any good out of the +Bible by reading it in a critical spirit. The contra- + +410 + +dictions and discrepancies are only apparent, and melt +away before the light of faith. That which in other +books would be absolute and palpable contradiction, +is, in the Bible, when spiritually discerned, a perfect +and beautiful harmony. My own opinion is, that +seeming contradictions are in the Bible for the pur- +pose of testing and strengthening the faith of Chris- +tians, and for the further purpose of ensnaring infidels, +"that they might believe a lie and be damned." +_Question_. Is it possible that a good God would +take pains to deceive his children? + +_Answer_. The Bible is filled with instances of that +kind, and all orthodox ministers now know that +fossil animals--that is, representations of animals in +stone, were placed in the rocks on purpose to mis- +lead men like Darwin and Humboldt, Huxley and +Tyndall. It is also now known that God, for the +purpose of misleading the so-called men of science, +had hairy elephants preserved in ice, made stomachs +for them, and allowed twigs of trees to be found in +these stomachs, when, as a matter of fact, no such +elephants ever lived or ever died. These men who +are endeavoring to overturn the Scriptures with the +lever of science will find that they have been de- +ceived. Through all eternity they will regret their + +411 + +philosophy. They will wish, in the next world, that +they had thrown away geology and physiology and +all other "ologies" except theology. The time is +coming when Jehovah will "mock at their fears and +"laugh at their calamity." + +_Question_. If Joseph was not the father of Christ, +why was his genealogy given to show that Christ +was of the blood of David; why would not the +genealogy of any other Jew have done as well? + +_Answer_. That objection was raised and answered +hundreds of years ago. + +_Question_. If they wanted to show that Christ was of +the blood of David, why did they not give the gene- +alogy of his mother if Joseph was not his father? + +_Answer_. That objection was answered hundreds +of years ago. + +_Question_. How was it answered? + +_Answer_. When Voltaire was dying, he sent for a +priest. + +_Question_. How does it happen that the two gene- +alogies given do not agree? + +_Answer_. Perhaps they were written by different +persons. + +_Question_. Were both these persons inspired by +the same God? + +412 + +_Answer_. Of course. + +_Question_. Why were the miracles recorded in the +New Testament performed? + +_Answer_. The miracles were the evidence relied +on to prove the supernatural origin and the divine +mission of Jesus Christ. + +_Question_. Aside from the miracles, is there any +evidence to show the supernatural origin or character +of Jesus Christ? + +_Answer_. Some have considered that his moral +precepts are sufficient, of themselves, to show that +he was divine. + +_Question_. Had all of his moral precepts been +taught before he lived? + +_Answer_. The same things had been said, but they +did not have the same meaning. + +_Question_. Does the fact that Buddha taught the +same tend to show that he was of divine origin? + +_Answer_. Certainly not. The rules of evidence +applicable to the Bible are not applicable to other +books. We examine other books in the light of +reason; the Bible is the only exception. So, we +should not judge of Christ as we do of any other +man. + +_Question_. Do you think that Christ wrought + +413 + +many of his miracles because he was good, charitable, +and filled with pity? + +_Answer_. Certainly + +_Question_. Has he as much power now as he had +when on earth? + +_Answer_. Most assuredly. + +_Question_. Is he as charitable and pitiful now, as +he was then? + +_Answer_. Yes. + +_Question_. Why does he not now cure the lame +and the halt and the blind? + +_Answer_. It is well known that, when Julian the +Apostate was dying, catching some of his own blood +in his hand and throwing it into the air he exclaimed: +"Galileean, thou hast conquered!" + +_Question_. Do you consider it our duty to love our +neighbor? + +_Answer_. Certainly. + +_Question_. Is virtue the same in all worlds? + +_Answer_. Most assuredly. + +_Question_. Are we under obligation to render good +for evil, and to "pray for those who despitefully use us"? + +_Answer_. Yes. + +_Question_. Will Christians in heaven love their +neighbors? + +414 + +_Answer_. Y es; if their neighbors are not in hell. + +_Question_. Do good Christians pity sinners in this +world? + +_Answer_. Yes. + +_Question_. Why? + +_Answer_. Because they regard them as being in +great danger of the eternal wrath of God. + +_Question_. After these sinners have died, and +been sent to hell, will the Christians in heaven then +pity them? + +_Answer_. No. Angels have no pity. + +_Question_. If we are under obligation to love our +enemies, is not God under obligation to love his? +If we forgive our enemies, ought not God to forgive +his? If we forgive those who injure us, ought not +God to forgive those who have not injured him? + +_Answer_. God made us, and he has therefore the +right to do with us as he pleases. Justice demands +that he should damn all of us, and the few that he +will save will be saved through mercy and without +the slightest respect to anything they may have done +themselves. Such is the justice of God, that those +in hell will have no right to complain, and those in +heaven will have no right to be there. Hell is justice, +and salvation is charity. + +415 + +_Question_. Do you consider it possible for a law to +be jusdy satisfied by the punishment of an innocent +person? + +_Answer_. Such is the scheme of the atonement. +As man is held responsible for the sin of Adam, so +he will be credited with the virtues of Christ; and +you can readily see that one is exactly as reasonable +as the other. + +_Question_. Suppose a man honestly reads the New +Testament, and honestly concludes that it is not an +inspired book; suppose he honestly makes up his +mind that the miracles are not true; that the devil +never really carried Christ to the pinnacle of the +temple; that devils were really never cast out of a +man and allowed to take refuge in swine;--I say, +suppose that he is honestly convinced that these +things are not true, what ought he to say? + +_Answer_. He ought to say nothing. + +_Question_. Suppose that the same man should read +the Koran, and come to the conclusion that it is not +an inspired book; what ought he to say? + +_Answer_. He ought to say that it is not inspired; +his fellow-men are entitled to his honest opinion, and +it is his duty to do what he can do to destroy a per- +nicious superstition. + +416 + +_Question_. Suppose then, that a reader of the Bible, +having become convinced that it is not inspired-- +honestly convinced--says nothing--keeps his con- +clusion absolutely to himself, and suppose he dies in +that belief, can he be saved? + +_Answer_. Certainly not. + +_Question_. Has the honesty of his belief anything +to do with his future condition? + +_Answer_. Nothing whatever., + +_Question_. Suppose that he tried to believe, that +he hated to disagree with his friends, and with his +parents, but that in spite of himself he was forced to +the conclusion that the Bible is not the inspired word +of God, would he then deserve eternal punishment? + +_Answer_. Certainly he would. + +_Question_. Can a man control his belief? + +_Answer_. He cannot--except as to the Bible. + +_Question_. Do you consider it just in God to +create a man who cannot believe the Bible, and then +damn him because he does not? + +_Answer_. Such is my belief. + +_Question_. Is it your candid opinion that a man +who does not believe the Bible should keep his +belief a secret from his fellow-men? + +_Answer_. It is. + +417 + +_Question_. How do I know that you believe the +Bible? You have told me that if you did not be- +lieve it, you would not tell me? + +_Answer_. There is no way for you to ascertain, +except by taking my word for it. + +_Question_. What will be the fate of a man who +does not believe it, and yet pretends to believe it? + +_Answer_. He will be damned. + +_Question_. Then hypocrisy will not save him? + +_Answer_. No. + +_Question_. And if he does not believe it, and ad- +mits that he does not believe it, then his honesty will +not save him? + +_Answer_. No. Honesty on the wrong side is no +better than hypocrisy on the right side. + +_Question_. Do we know who wrote the gospels? + +_Answer_. Yes; we do. + +_Question_. Are we absolutely sure who wrote +them? + +_Answer_. Of course; we have the evidence as it +has come to us through the Catholic Church. + +_Question_. Can we rely upon the Catholic Church +now? + +_Answer_. No; assuredly no! But we have the +testimony of Polycarp and Irenæus and Clement, + +418 + +and others of the early fathers, together with that of +the Christian historian, Eusebius. + +_Question_. What do we really know about Polycarp? + +_Answer_. We know that he suffered martyrdom un- +der Marcus Aurelius, and that for quite a time the fire +refused to burn his body, the flames arching over him, +leaving him in a kind of fiery tent; and we also know +that from his body came a fragrance like frankincense, +and that the Pagans were so exasperated at seeing +the miracle, that one of them thrust a sword through +the body of Polycarp; that the blood flowed out and +extinguished the flames and that out of the wound +flew the soul of the martyr in the form of a dove. + +_Question_. Is that all we know about Polycarp? + +_Answer_. Yes, with the exception of a few more +like incidents. + +_Question_. Do we know that Polycarp ever met +St. John? + +_Answer_. Yes; Eusebius says so. + +_Question_. Are we absolutely certain that he ever +lived? + +_Answer_. Yes, or Eusebius could not have written +about him. + +_Question_. Do we know anything of the character +of Eusebius? + +419 + +_Answer_. Yes; we know that he was untruthful +only when he wished to do good. But God can use +even the dishonest. Other books have to be sub- +stantiated by truthful men, but such is the power of +God, that he can establish the inspiration of the Bible +by the most untruthful witnesses. If God's witnesses +were honest, anybody could believe, and what be- +comes of faith, one of the greatest virtues? + +_Question_. Is the New Testament now the same as +it was in the days of the early fathers? + +_Answer_. Certainly not. Many books now thrown +out, and not esteemed of divine origin, were esteemed +divine by Polycarp and Irenæus and Clement and +many of the early churches. These books are now +called "apocryphal." + +_Question_. Have you not the same witnesses in +favor of their authenticity, that you have in favor of +the gospels? + +_Answer_. Precisely the same. Except that they +were thrown out. + +_Question_. Why were they thrown out? + +_Answer_. Because the Catholic Church did not es- +teem them inspired. + +_Question_. Did the Catholics decide for us which +are the true gospels and which are the true epistles? + +420 + +_Answer_. Yes. The Catholic Church was then the +only church, and consequently must have been the +true church. + +_Question_. How did the Catholic Church select the +true books? + +_Answer_. Councils were called, and votes were +taken, very much as we now pass resolutions in +political meetings. + +_Question_. Was the Catholic Church infallible then? + +_Answer_. It was then, but it is not now. + +_Question_. If the Catholic Church at that time +had thrown out the book of Revelation, would it +now be our duty to believe that book to have been +inspired? + +_Answer_. No, I suppose not. + +_Question_. Is it not true that some of these books +were adopted by exceedingly small majorities? + +_Answer_. It is. + +_Question_. If the Epistle to the Hebrews and to +the Romans, and the book of Revelation had been +thrown out, could a man now be saved who honestly +believes the rest of the books? + +_Answer_. This is doubtful. + +_Question_. Were the men who picked out the in- +spired books inspired? + +421 + +_Answer_. We cannot tell, but the probability is +that they were. + +_Question_. Do we know that they picked out the +right ones? + +_Answer_. Well, not exactly, but we believe that +they did. + +_Question_. Are we certain that some of the books +that were thrown out were not inspired? + +_Answer_. Well, the only way to tell is to read +them carefully. + +_Question_. If upon reading these apocryphal books +a man concludes that they are not inspired, will he be +damned for that reason? + +_Answer_. No. Certainly not. + +_Question_. If he concludes that some of them are +inspired, and believes them, will he then be damned +for that belief? + +_Answer_. Oh, no! Nobody is ever damned for +believing too much. + +_Question_. Does the fact that the books now com- +prising the New Testament were picked out by the +Catholic Church prevent their being examined now +by an honest man, as they were examined at the time +they were picked out? + +422 + +_Answer_. No; not if the man comes to the con- +clusion that they are inspired. + +_Question_. Does the fact that the Catholic Church +picked them out and declared them to be inspired, +render it a crime to examine them precisely as you +would examine the books that the Catholic Church +threw out and declared were not inspired? + +_Answer_. I think it does. + +_Question_. At the time the council was held in which +it was determined which of the books of the New +Testament are inspired, a respectable minority voted +against some that were finally decided to be inspired. +If they were honest in the vote they gave, and died +without changing their opinions, are they now in hell? + +_Answer_. Well, they ought to be. + +_Question_. If those who voted to leave the book +of Revelation out of the canon, and the gospel of +Saint John out of the canon, believed honestly that +these were not inspired books, how should they have +voted? + +_Answer_. Well, I suppose a man ought to vote as +he honestly believes--except in matters of religion. + +_Question_. If the Catholic Church was not infal- +lible, is the question still open as to what books are, +and what are not, inspired? + +423 + +_Answer_. I suppose the question is still open-- +but it would be dangerous to decide it. + +_Question_. If, then, I examine all the books again, +and come to the conclusion that some that were +thrown out were inspired, and some that were ac- +cepted were not inspired, ought I to say so? + +_Answer_. Not if it is contrary to the faith of your +father, or calculated to interfere with your own po- +litical prospects. + +_Question_. Is it as great a sin to admit into the +Bible books that are uninspired as to reject those +that are inspired? + +_Answer_. Well, it is a crime to reject an inspired +book, no matter how unsatisfactory the evidence is +for its inspiration, but it is not a crime to receive an +uninspired book. God damns nobody for believing +too much. An excess of credulity is simply to err in +the direction of salvation. + +_Question_. Suppose a man disbelieves in the inspira- +tion of the New Testament--believes it to be entirely +the work of uninspired men; and suppose he also be- +lieves--but not from any evidence obtained in the New +Testament--that Jesus Christ was the son of God, and +that he made atonement for his soul, can he then be +saved without a belief in the inspiration of the Bible? + +424 + +_Answer_. This has not yet been decided by +our church, and I do not wish to venture an +opinion. + +_Question_. Suppose a man denies the inspiration +of the Scriptures; suppose that he also denies the +divinity of Jesus Christ; and suppose, further, that +he acts precisely as Christ is said to have acted; +suppose he loves his enemies, prays for those who +despitefully use him, and does all the good he pos- +sibly can, is it your opinion that such a man will be +saved? + +_Answer_. No, sir. There is "none other name +"given under heaven and among men," whereby a +sinner can be saved but the name of Christ. + +_Question_. Then it is your opinion that God +would save a murderer who believed in Christ, and +would damn another man, exactly like Christ, who +failed to believe in him? + +_Answer_. Yes; because we have the blessed +promise that, out of Christ, "our God is a consuming +"fire." + +_Question_. Suppose a man read the Bible care- +fully and honestly, and was not quite convinced that +it was true, and that while examining the subject, he +died; what then? + +425 + +_Answer_. I do not believe that God would allow +him to examine the matter in another world, or to +make up his mind in heaven. Of course, he would +eternally perish. + +_Question_. Could Christ now furnish evidence +enough to convince every human being of the truth +of the Bible? + +_Answer_. Of course he could, because he is in- +finite. + +_Question_. Are any miracles performed now? + +_Answer_. Oh, no! + +_Question_. Have we any testimony, except human +testimony, to substantiate any miracle? + +_Answer_. Only human testimony. + +_Question_. Do all men give the same force to the +same evidence? + +_Answer_. By no means. + +_Question_. Have all honest men who have exam- +ined the Bible believed it to be inspired? + +_Answer_. Of course they have. Infidels are not +honest. + +_Question_. Could any additional evidence have +been furnished? + +_Answer_. With perfect ease. + +_Question_. Would God allow a soul to suffer + +426 + +eternal agony rather than furnish evidence of the +truth of his Bible? + +_Answer_. God has furnished plenty of evidence, +and altogether more than was really necessary. We +should read the Bible in a believing spirit. + +_Question_. Are all parts of the inspired books +equally true? + +_Answer_. Necessarily. + +_Question_. According to Saint Matthew, God +promises to forgive all who will forgive others; not +one word is said about believing in Christ, or believ- +ing in the miracles, or in any Bible; did Matthew tell +the truth? + +_Answer_. The Bible must be taken as a whole; +and if other conditions are added somewhere else, +then you must comply with those other conditions. +Matthew may not have stated all the conditions. + +_Question_. I find in another part of the New +Testament, that a young man came to Christ and +asked him what was necessary for him to do in order +that he might inherit eternal life. Christ did not tell +him that he must believe the Bible, or that he must +believe in him, or that he must keep the Sabbath- +day; was Christ honest with that young man? + +_Answer_. Well, I suppose he was. + +427 + +_Question_. You will also recollect that Zaccheus +said to Christ, that where he had wronged any man +he had made restitution, and further, that half his +goods he had given to the poor; and you will re- +member that Christ said to Zaccheus: "This day +"hath salvation come to thy house." Why did not +Christ tell Zaccheus that he "must be born again;" +that he must "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ"? + +_Answer_. Of course there are mysteries in our +holy religion that only those who have been "born +"again" can understand. You must remember that +"the carnal mind is enmity with God." + +_Question_. Is it not strange that Christ, in his Ser- +mon on the Mount, did not speak of "regeneration," +or of the "scheme of salvation"? + +_Answer_. Well, it may be. + +_Question_. Can a man be saved now by living +exactly in accordance with the Sermon on the Mount? + +_Answer_. He can not. + +_Question_. Would then a man, by following the +course of conduct prescribed by Christ in the Sermon +on the Mount, lose his soul? + +_Answer_. He most certainly would, because there +is not one word in the Sermon on the Mount about +believing on the Lord Jesus Christ; not one word + +428 + +about believing in the Bible; not one word about the +"atonement;" not one word about "regeneration." +So that, if the Presbyterian Church is right, it is abso- +lutely certain that a man might follow the teachings +of the Sermon on the Mount, and live in accordance +with its every word, and yet deserve and receive the +eternal condemnation of God. But we must remem- +ber that the Sermon on the Mount was preached be- +fore Christianity existed. Christ was talking to Jews. + +_Question_. Did Christ write anything himself, in +the New Testament? + +_Answer_. Not a word. + +_Question_. Did he tell any of his disciples to write +any of his words? + +_Answer_. There is no account of it, if he did. + +_Question_. Do we know whether any of the dis- +ciples wrote anything? + +_Answer_. Of course they did. + +_Question_. How do you know? + +_Answer_. Because the gospels bear their names. + +_Question_. Are you satisfied that Christ was abso- +lutely God? + +_Answer_. Of course he was. We believe that +Christ and God and the Holy Ghost are all the same, +that the three form one, and that each one is three. + +429 + +_Question_. Was Christ the God of the universe at +the time of his birth? + +_Answer_. He certainly was. + +_Question_. Was he the infinite God, creator +and controller of the entire universe, before he was +born? + +_Answer_. Of course he was. This is the mystery +of "God manifest in the flesh." The infidels have +pretended that he was like any other child, and was +in fact supported by Nature instead of being the +supporter of Nature. They have insisted that like +other children, he had to be cared for by his mother. +Of course he appeared to be cared for by his mother. +It was a part of the plan that in all respects he should +appear to be like other children. + +_Question_. Did he know just as much before he +was born as after? + +_Answer_. If he was God of course he did. + +_Question_. How do you account for the fact that +Saint Luke tells us, in the last verse of the second +chapter of his gospel, that "Jesus increased in wis- +"dom and stature"? + +_Answer_. That I presume is a figure of speech; +because, if he was God, he certainly could not have +increased in wisdom. The physical part of him could + +430 + +increase in stature, but the intellectual part must have +been infinite all the time. + +_Question_. Do you think that Luke was mistaken? + +_Answer_. No; I believe what Luke said. If it +appears untrue, or impossible, then I know that it is +figurative or symbolical. + +_Question_. Did I understand you to say that Christ +was actually God? + +_Answer_. Of course he was. + +_Question_. Then why did Luke say in the same +verse of the same chapter that "Jesus increased in +"favor with God"? + +_Answer_. I dare you to go into a room by your- +self and read the fourteenth chapter of Saint John! + +_Question_. Is it necessary to understand the Bible +in order to be saved? + +_Answer_. Certainly not; it is only necessary that +you believe it. + +_Question_. Is it necessary to believe all the +miracles? + +_Answer_. It may not be necessary, but as it is im- +possible to tell which ones can safely be left out, you +had better believe them all. + +_Question_. Then you regard belief as the safe +way? + +431 + +_Answer_. Of course it is better to be fooled in this +world than to be damned in the next. + +_Question_. Do you think that there are any cruel- +ties on God's part recorded in the Bible? + +_Answer_. At first flush, many things done by God +himself, as well as by his prophets, appear to be +cruel; but if we examine them closely, we will find +them to be exactly the opposite. + +_Question_. How do you explain the story of Elisha +and the children,--where the two she-bears destroyed +forty-two children on account of their impudence? + +_Answer_. This miracle, in my judgment, estab- +lishes two things: 1. That children should be polite +to ministers, and 2. That God is kind to animals-- +"giving them their meat in due season." These +bears have been great educators--they are the +foundation of the respect entertained by the young +for theologians. No child ever sees a minister now +without thinking of a bear. + +_Question_. What do you think of the story of +Daniel--you no doubt remember it? Some men +told the king that Daniel was praying contrary to +law, and thereupon Daniel was cast into a den of +lions; but the lions could not touch him, their +mouths having been shut by angels. The next + +432 + +morning, the king, finding that Daniel was still +intact, had him taken out; and then, for the purpose +of gratifying Daniels God, the king had all the men +who had made the complaint against Daniel, and +their wives and their little children, brought and cast +into the lions' den. According to the account, the +lions were so hungry that they caught these wives +and children as they dropped, and broke all their +bones in pieces before they had even touched the +ground. Is it not wonderful that God failed to pro- +tect these innocent wives and children? + +_Answer_. These wives and children were heathen; +they were totally depraved. And besides, they were +used as witnesses. The fact that they were devoured +with such quickness shows that the lions were +hungry. Had it not been for this, infidels would +have accounted for the safety of Daniel by saying +that the lions had been fed. + +_Question_. Do you believe that Shadrach, Meshach +and Abednego were cast "into a burning fiery furnace +"heated one seven times hotter than it was wont to +"be heated," and that they had on "their coats, their +"hosen and their hats," and that when they came +out "not a hair of their heads was singed, nor was +"the smell of fire upon their garments"? + +433 + +_Answer_. The evidence of this miracle is exceed- +ingly satisfactory. It resulted in the conversion of +Nebuchadnezzar. + +_Question_. How do you know he was converted? + +_Answer_. Because immediately after the miracle +the king issued a decree that "every people, nation +"and language that spoke anything amiss against +"the God of Shadrach and Company, should be cut +"in pieces." This decree shows that he had become +a true disciple and worshiper of Jehovah. + +_Question_. If God in those days preserved from +the fury of the fire men who were true to him and +would not deny his name, why is it that he has failed +to protect thousands of martyrs since that time? + +_Answer_. This is one of the divine mysteries. +God has in many instances allowed his enemies to +kill his friends. I suppose this was allowed for the +good of his enemies, that the heroism of the mar- +tyrs might convert them. + +_Question_. Do you believe all the miracles? + +_Answer_. I believe them all, because I believe the +Bible to be inspired. + +_Question_. What makes you think it is inspired? + +_Answer_. I have never seen anybody who knew +it was not; besides, my father and mother believed it. + +434 + +_Question_. Have you any other reasons for be- +lieving it to be inspired? + +_Answer_. Yes; there are more copies of the Bible +printed than of any other book; and it is printed in +more languages. And besides, it would be impossible +to get along without it. + +_Question_. Why could we not get along without it? + +_Answer_. We would have nothing to swear wit- +nesses by; no book in which to keep the family +record; nothing for the centre-table, and nothing for +a mother to give her son. No nation can be civilized +without the Bible. + +_Question_. Did God always know that a Bible was +necessary to civilize a country? + +_Answer_. Certainly he did. + +_Question_. Why did he not give a Bible to +the Egyptians, the Hindus, the Greeks and the +Romans? + +_Answer_. It is astonishing what perfect fools in- +fidels are. + +_Question_. Why do you call infidels "fools"? + +_Answer_. Because I find in the fifth chapter of the +gospel according to Matthew the following: "Who- +"soever shall say 'Thou fool!' shall be in danger of +"hell fire." + +435 + +_Question_. Have I the right to read the Bible? + +_Answer_. Yes. You not only have the right, but +it is your duty. + +_Question_. In reading the Bible the words make +certain impressions on my mind. These impressions +depend upon my brain,--upon my intelligence. Is +not this true? + +_Answer_. Of course, when you read the Bible, im- +pressions are made upon your mind. + +_Question_. Can I control these impressions? + +_Answer_. I do not think you can, as long as you +remain in a sinful state. + +_Question_. How am I to get out of this sinful state? + +_Answer_. You must believe on the Lord Jesus +Christ, and you must read the Bible in a prayerful +spirit and with a believing heart. + +_Question_. Suppose that doubts force themselves +upon my mind? + +_Answer_. Then you will know that you are a sin- +ner, and that you are depraved. + +_Question_. If I have the right to read the Bible, +have I the right to try to understand it? + +_Answer_. Most assuredly. + +_Question_. Do you admit that I have the right to +reason about it and to investigate it? + +436 + +_Answer_. Yes; I admit that. Of course you can- +not help reasoning about what you read. + +_Question_. Does the right to read a book include +the right to give your opinion as to the truth of what +the book contains? + +_Answer_. Of course,--if the book is not inspired. +Infidels hate the Bible because it is inspired, and +Christians know that it is inspired because infidels +say that it is not. + +_Question_. Have I the right to decide for myself +whether or not the book is inspired? + +_Answer_. You have no right to deny the truth of +God's Holy Word. + +_Question_. Is God the author of all books? + +_Answer_. Certainly not. + +_Question_. Have I the right to say that God did +not write the Koran? + +_Answer_. Yes. + +_Question_. Why? + +_Answer_. Because the Koran was written by an +impostor. + +_Question_. How do you know? + +_Answer_. My reason tells me so. + +_Question_. Have you the right to be guided by +your reason? + +437 + +_Answer_. I must be. + +_Question_. Have you the same right to follow your +reason after reading the Bible? + +_Answer_. No. The Bible is the standard of reason. +The Bible is not to be judged or corrected by your +reason. Your reason is to be weighed and measured +by the Bible. The Bible is different from other +books and must not be read in the same critical spirit, +nor judged by the same standard. + +_Question_. What did God give us reason for? + +_Answer_. So that we might investigate other +religions, and examine other so-called sacred books. + +_Question_. If a man honestly thinks that the Bible +is not inspired, what should he say? + +_Answer_. He should admit that he is mistaken. + +_Question_. When he thinks he is right? + +_Answer_. Yes. The Bible is different from other +books. It is the master of reason. You read the +Bible, not to see if that is wrong, but to see +whether your reason is right. It is the only book +about which a man has no right to reason. He must +believe. The Bible is addressed, not to the reason, +but to the ears: "He that hath ears to hear, let +"him hear." + +_Question_. Do you think we have the right to tell + +438 + +what the Bible means--what ideas God intended to +convey, or has conveyed to us, through the medium +of the Bible? + +_Answer_. Well, I suppose you have that right. +Yes, that must be your duty. You certainly ought +to tell others what God has said to you. + +_Question_. Do all men get the same ideas from +the Bible? + +_Answer_. No. + +_Question_. How do you account for that? + +_Answer_. Because all men are not alike; they +differ in intellect, in education, and in experience. + +_Question_. Who has the right to decide as to the +real ideas that God intended to convey? + +_Answer_. I am a Protestant, and believe in the +right of private judgment. Whoever does not is a +Catholic. Each man must be his own judge, but God +will hold him responsible. + +_Question_. Does God believe in the right of private +judgment? + +_Answer_. Of course he does. + +_Question_. Is he willing that I should exercise my +judgment in deciding whether the Bible is inspired or +not? + +_Answer_. No. He believes in the exercise of + +439 + +private judgment only in the examination and rejec- +tion of other books than the Bible. + +_Question_. Is he a Catholic? + +_Answer_. I cannot answer blasphemy! Let me +tell you that God will "laugh at your calamity, and +"will mock when your fear cometh." You will be +accursed. + +_Question_. Why do you curse infidels? + +_Answer_. Because I am a Christian. + +_Question_. Did not Christ say that we ought to +"bless those who curse us," and that we should +"love our enemies"? + +_Answer_. Yes, but he cursed the Pharisees and +called them "hypocrites" and "vipers." + +_Question_. How do you account for that? + +_Answer_. It simply shows the difference between +theory and practice. + +_Question_. What do you consider the best way to +answer infidels. + +_Answer_. The old way is the best. You should +say that their arguments are ancient, and have been +answered over and over again. If this does not +satisfy your hearers, then you should attack the +character of the infidel--then that of his parents-- +then that of his children. + +440 + +_Question_. Suppose that the infidel is a good man, +how will you answer him then? + +_Answer_. But an infidel cannot be a good man. +Even if he is, it is better that he should lose his +reputation, than that thousands should lose their +souls. We know that all infidels are vile and infa- +mous. We may not have the evidence, but we know +that it exists. + +_Question_. How should infidels be treated? Should +Christians try to convert them? + +_Answer_. Christians should have nothing to do +with infidels. It is not safe even to converse with +them. They are always talking about reason, and +facts, and experience. They are filled with sophistry +and should be avoided. + +_Question_. Should Christians pray for the con- +version of infidels? + +_Answer_. Yes; but such prayers should be made +in public and the name of the infidel should be given +and his vile and hideous heart portrayed so that the +young may be warned. + +_Question_. Whom do you regard as infidels? + +_Answer_. The scientists--the geologists, the as- +tronomers, the naturalists, the philosophers. No one +can overestimate the evil that has been wrought + +441 + +by Laplace, Humboldt, Darwin, Huxley, Haeckel, +Renan, Emerson, Strauss, Bikhner, Tyndall, and +their wretched followers. These men pretended to +know more than Moses and the prophets. They +were "dogs baying at the moon." They were +"wolves" and "fools." They tried to "assassinate +"God," and worse than all, they actually laughed +at the clergy, + +_Question_. Do you think they did, and are doing +great harm? + +_Answer_. Certainly. Of what use are all the +sciences, if you lose your own soul? People in hell +will care nothing about education. The rich man +said nothing about science, he wanted water. +Neither will they care about books and theories +in heaven. If a man is perfectly happy, it makes +no difference how ignorant he is. + +_Question_. But how can he answer these scientists? + +_Answer_. Well, my advice is to let their argu- +ments alone. Of course, you will deny all their +facts; but the most effective way is to attack their +character. + +_Question_. But suppose they are good men,-- +what then? + +_Answer_. The better they are, the worse they are. + +442 + +We cannot admit that the infidel is really good. He +may appear to be good, and it is our duty to strip +the mask of appearance from the face of unbelief. If +a man is not a Christian, he is totally depraved, and +why should we hesitate to make a misstatement +about a man whom God is going to make miserable +forever? + +_Question_. Are we not commanded to love our +enemies? + +_Answer_. Yes, but not the enemies of God. + +_Question_. Do you fear the final triumph of infi- +delity? + +_Answer_. No. We have no fear. We believe +that the Bible can be revised often enough to agree +with anything that may really be necessary to the +preservation of the church. We can always rely +upon revision. Let me tell you that the Bible is the +most peculiar of books. At the time God inspired his +holy prophets to write it, he knew exactly what the +discoveries and demonstrations of the future would +be, and he wrote his Bible in such a way that the +words could always be interpreted in accordance with +the intelligence of each age, and so that the words +used are capable of several meanings, so that, no +matter what may hereafter be discovered, the Bible + +443 + +will be found to agree with it,--for the reason that +the knowledge of Hebrew will grow in the exact +proportion that discoveries are made in other depart- +ments of knowledge. You will therefore see, that all +efforts of infidelity to destroy the Bible will simply +result in giving a better translation. + +_Question_. What do you consider is the strongest +argument in favor of the inspiration of the Scrip- +tures? + +_Answer_. The dying words of Christians. + +_Question_. What do you consider the strongest +argument against the truth of infidelity? + +_Answer_. The dying words of infidels. You know +how terrible were the death-bed scenes of Hume, +Voltaire, Paine and Hobbes, as described by hundreds +of persons who were not present; while all Christians +have died with the utmost serenity, and with their +last words have testified to the sustaining power of +faith in the goodness of God. + +_Question_. What were the last words of Jesus +Christ? + +_Answer_. "My God, my God, why hast thou for- +"saken me?" + + + + +A VINDICATION OF THOMAS PAINE. + + +_"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and +authority of reason, is like administering +medicine to the dead."--Thomas Paine._ + + +Peoria, October 8, 1877. + +To the Editor of the N Y. Observer: + +Sir: Last June in San Francisco, I offered a +thousand dollars in gold--not as a wager, but as a +gift--to any one who would substantiate the absurd +story that Thomas Paine died in agony and fear, +frightened by the clanking chains of devils. I also +offered the same amount to any minister who would +prove that Voltaire did not pass away as serenely as +the coming of the dawn. Afterward I was informed +that you had accepted the offer, and had called upon +me to deposit the money. Acting upon this inform- +ation, I sent you the following letter: + +Peoria, Ill., August 31st, 1877. + +To the Editor of the New York Observer: + +I have been informed that you accepted, in your +paper, an offer made by me to any clergyman in +San Francisco. That offer was, that I would pay + +448 + +one thousand dollars in gold to any minister in that +city who would prove that Thomas Paine died in +terror because of religious opinions he had ex- +pressed, or that Voltaire did not pass away serenely +as the coming of the dawn. + +For many years religious journals and ministers +have been circulating certain pretended accounts of +the frightful agonies endured by Paine and Voltaire +when dying; that these great men at the moment of +death were terrified because they had given their +honest opinions upon the subject of religion to their +fellow-men. The imagination of the religious world +has been taxed to the utmost in inventing absurd +and infamous accounts of the last moments of these +intellectual giants. Every Sunday school paper, +thousands of idiotic tracts, and countless stupidities +called sermons, have been filled with these calumnies. + +Paine and Voltaire both believed in God--both +hoped for immortality--both believed in special +providence. But both denied the inspiration of the +Scriptures--both denied the divinity of Jesus Christ. +While theologians most cheerfully admit that most +murderers die without fear, they deny the possibility +of any man who has expressed his disbelief in the +inspiration of the Bible dying except in an agony of +terror. These stories are used in revivals and in + +449 + +Sunday schools, and have long been considered of +great value. + +I am anxious that these slanders shall cease. I +am desirous of seeing justice done, even at this late +day, to the dead. + +For the purpose of ascertaining the evidence upon +which these death-bed accounts really rest, I make +to you the following proposition:-- + +First.--As to Thomas Paine: I will deposit with +the First National Bank of Peoria, Illinois, one thou- +sand dollars in gold, upon the following conditions: +This money shall be subject to your order when +you shall, in the manner hereinafter provided, sub- +stantiate that Thomas Paine admitted the Bible to be +an inspired book, or that he recanted his Infidel +opinions--or that he died regretting that he had dis- +believed the Bible--or that he died calling upon +Jesus Christ in any religious sense whatever. + +In order that a tribunal may be created to try this +question, you may select one man, I will select +another, and the two thus chosen shall select a third, +and any two of the three may decide the matter. + +As there will be certain costs and expenditures on +both sides, such costs and expenditures shall be paid +by the defeated party. + +In addition to the one thousand dollars in gold, I + +450 + +will deposit a bond with good and sufficient security +in the sum of two thousand dollars, conditioned for +the payment of all costs in case I am defeated. I +shall require of you a like bond. + +From the date of accepting this offer you may +have ninety days to collect and present your testi- +mony, giving me notice of time and place of taking +depositions. I shall have a like time to take evi- +dence upon my side, giving you like notice, and you +shall then have thirty days to take further testimony +in reply to what I may offer. The case shall then +be argued before the persons chosen; and their +decisions shall be final as to us. + +If the arbitrator chosen by me shall die, I shall +have the right to choose another. You shall have +the same right. If the third one, chosen by our two, +shall die, the two shall choose another; and all va- +cancies, from whatever cause, shall be filled upon the +same principle. + +The arbitrators shall sit when and where a major- +ity shall determine, and shall have full power to pass +upon all questions arising as to competency of +evidence, and upon all subjects. + +_Second_.--As to Voltaire: I make the same prop- +osition, if you will substantiate that Voltaire died +expressing remorse or showing in any way that he + +451 + +was in mental agony because he had attacked Catholi- +cism--or because he had denied the inspiration of the +Bible--or because he had denied the divinity of Christ. + +I make these propositions because I want you +to stop slandering the dead. + +If the propositions do not suit you in any particu- +lar, please state your objections, and I will modify +them in any way consistent with the object in view. + +If Paine and Voltaire died filled with childish and +silly fear, I want to know it, and I want the world to +know it. On the other hand, if the believers in +superstition have made and circulated these cruel +slanders concerning the mighty dead, I want the +world to know that. + +As soon as you notify me of the acceptance of +these propositions I will send you the certificate of +the bank that the money has been deposited upon +the foregoing conditions, together with copies of +bonds for costs. Yours truly, + +R. G. Ingersoll. + +In your paper of September 27, 1877, you acknowl- +edge the receipt of the foregoing letter, and after +giving an outline of its contents, say: "As not one +of the affirmations, in the form stated in this letter, +was contained in the offer we made, we have no +occasion to substantiate them. But we are prepared + +452 + +to produce the evidence of the truth of our own +statement, and even to go further; to show not only +that Tom Paine 'died a drunken, cowardly, and +beastly death,' but that for many years previous, and +up to that event he lived a drunken and beastly life." +In order to refresh your memory as to what you +had published, I call your attention to the following, +which appeared in the N. Y. Observer, July 19, 1877: +"Put Down the Money. + +"Col. Bob Ingersoll, in a speech full of ribaldry +and blasphemy, made in San Francisco recently, said: +"I will give $1,000 in gold coin to any clergyman +who can substantiate that the death of Voltaire was +not as peaceful as the dawn; and of Tom Paine whom +they assert died in fear and agony, frightened by the +clanking chains of devils--in fact frightened to death +by God. I will give $1,000 likewise to any one who +can substantiate this 'absurd story'--a story without +a word of truth in it." + +"We have published the testimony, and the wit- +nesses are on hand to prove that Tom Paine died a +drunken, cowardly and beastly death. Let the Colo- +nel deposit the money with any honest man, and the +absurd story, as he terms it, shall be shown to be an +ower true tale. But he wont do it. His talk is Infi- +del 'buncombe' and nothing more." + +453 + +On the 31st of August I sent you my letter, and +on the 27th of September you say in your paper: +"As not one of the affirmations in the form stated +in this letter was contained in the offer we made, we +have no occasion to substantiate them." + +What were the affirmations contained in the offer +you made? I had offered a thousand dollars in gold +to any one who would substantiate "the absurd story" +that Thomas Paine died in fear and agony,frightened +by the clanking chains of devils--in fact, frightened to +death by God. + +In response to this offer you said: "Let the Colo- +nel deposit the money with an honest man and the +'absurd story' as he terms it, shall be shown to be +an 'ower true tale.' But he won't do it. His talk +is infidel 'buncombe' and nothing more." + +Did you not offer to prove that Paine died in fear +and agony, frightened by the clanking chains of +devils? Did you not ask me to deposit the money +that you might prove the "absurd story" to be an +"ower true tale" and obtain the money? Did you +not in your paper of the twenty-seventh of September +in effect deny that you had offered to prove this +"absurd story"? As soon as I offered to deposit +the gold and give bonds besides to cover costs, did +you not publish a falsehood? + +454 + +You have eaten your own words, and, for my +part, I would rather have dined with Ezekiel than +with you. + +You have not met the issue. You have know- +ingly avoided it. The question was not as to the +personal habits of Paine. The real question was +and is, whether Paine was filled with fear and horror +at the time of his death on account of his religious +opinions. That is the question. You avoid this. +In effect, you abandon that charge and make others. + +To you belongs the honor of having made the +most cruel and infamous charges against Thomas +Paine that have ever been made. Of what you +have said you cannot prove the truth of one word. + +You say that Thomas Paine died a drunken, +cowardly and beastly death. + +I pronounce this charge to be a cowardly and +beastly falsehood. + +Have you any evidence that he was in a drunken +condition when he died? + +What did he say or do of a cowardly character +just before, or at about the time of his death? + +In what way was his death cowardly? You must +answer these questions, and give your proof, or all +honest men will hold you in abhorrence. You have +made these charges. The man against whom you + +Vindication of thomas paine. + +455 + +make them is dead. He cannot answer you. I +can. He cannot compel you to produce your testi- +mony, or admit by your silence that you have +cruelly slandered the defenceless dead. I can and I +will. You say that his death was cowardly. In +what respect? Was it cowardly in him to hold the +Thirty-Nine Articles in contempt? Was it cowardly +not to call on your Lord? Was it cowardly not to +be afraid? You say that his death was beastly. +Again I ask, in what respect? Was it beastly to +submit to the inevitable with tranquillity? Was it +beastly to look with composure upon the approach +of death? Was it beastly to die without a com- +plaint, without a murmur--to pass from life without +a fear? + +Did Thomas Paine Recant? + +Mr. Paine had prophesied that fanatics would +crawl and cringe around him during his last mo- +ments. He believed that they would put a lie in +the mouth of Death. + +When the shadow of the coming dissolution was +upon him, two clergymen, Messrs. Milledollar and +Cunningham, called to annoy the dying man. Mr. +Cunningham had the politeness to say, "You have +now a full view of death you cannot live long, and +whosoever does not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ + +456 + +will asuredly be damned." Mr. Paine replied, "Let +me have none of your popish stuff. Get away with +you. Good morning." + +On another occasion a Methodist minister ob- +truded himself when Willet Hicks was present. +This minister declared to Mr. Paine "that unless he +repented of his unbelief he would be damned." +Paine, although at the door of death, rose in his bed +and indignantly requested the clergyman to leave +his room. On another occasion, two brothers by +the name of Pigott, sought to convert him. He was +displeased and requested their departure. After- +ward Thomas Nixon and Captain Daniel Pelton +visited him for the express purpose of ascertaining +whether he had, in any manner, changed his relig- +ious opinions. They were assured by the dying +man that he still held the principles he had expressed +in his writings. + +Afterward, these gentlemen hearing that William +Cobbett was about to write a life of Paine, sent him +the following note: + +New York, April 24, 1818. + +"Sir: We have been informed that you have a de- +sign to write a history of the life and writings of +Thomas Paine. If you have been furnished with +materials in respect to his religious opinions, or + +457 + +rather of his recantation of his former opinions before +his death, all you have heard of his recanting is false. +Being aware that such reports would be raised after +his death by fanatics who infested his house at the +time it was expected he would die, we, the subscrib- +ers, intimate acquaintances of Thomas Paine since +the year 1776, went to his house. He was sitting +up in a chair, and apparently in full vigor and use of +all his mental faculties. We interrogated him upon +his religious opinions, and if he had changed his +mind, or repented of anything he had said or wrote +on that subject. He answered, "Not at all," and +appeared rather offended at our supposition that any +change should take place in his mind. We took +down in writing the questions put to him and his +answers thereto before a number of persons then in +his room, among whom were his doctor, Mrs. +Bonneville, &c. This paper is mislaid and cannot +be found at present, but the above is the substance +which can be attested by many living witnesses." + +Thomas Nixon. + +Daniel Pelton. + +Mr. Jarvis, the artist, saw Mr. Paine one or two +days before his death. To Mr. Jarvis he expressed +his belief in his written opinions upon the subject of +religion. B. F. Haskin, an attorney of the city of + +458 + +New York, also visited him and inquired as to his +religious opinions. Paine was then upon the thresh- +old of death, but he did not tremble. He was not a +coward. He expressed his firm and unshaken belief +in the religious ideas he had given to the world. + +Dr. Manley was with him when he spoke his last +words. Dr. Manley asked the dying man if he did +not wish to believe that Jesus was the Son of God, +and the dying philosopher answered: "I have no +wish to believe on that subject." Amasa Woodsworth + +sat up with Thomas Paine the night before his +death. In 1839 Gilbert Vale hearing that Mr. +Woodsworth was living in or near Boston, visited +him for the purpose of getting his statement. The +statement was published in the Beacon of June 5, +1839, while thousands who had been acquainted with +Mr. Paine were living. + +The following is the article referred to. + +"We have just returned from Boston. One ob- +ject of our visit to that city, was to see a Mr. Amasa +Woodsworth, an engineer, now retired in a hand- +some cottage and garden at East Cambridge, Boston. +This gentleman owned the house occupied by Paine +at his death--while he lived next door. As an act +of kindness Mr. Woodsworth visited Mr. Paine every +day for six weeks before his death. He frequently + +459 + +sat up with him, and did so on the last two nights of +his life. He was always there with Dr. Manley, the +physician, and assisted in removing Mr. Paine while +his bed was prepared. He was present when Dr. +Manley asked Mr. Paine "if he wished to believe +that Jesus Christ was the Son of God," and he de- +scribes Mr. Paine's answer as animated. He says +that lying on his back he used some action and with +much emphasis, replied, "I have no wish to believe +on that subject." He lived some time after this, but +was not known to speak, for he died tranquilly. He +accounts for the insinuating style of Dr. Manley's +letter, by stating that that gentleman just after its +publication joined a church. He informs us that he +has openly reproved the doctor for the falsity con- +tained in the spirit of that letter, boldly declaring be- +fore Dr. Manley, who is yet living, that nothing +which he saw justified the insinuations. Mr. Woods- +worth assures us that he neither heard nor saw any- +thing to justify the belief of any mental change in +the opinions of Mr. Paine previous to his death; but +that being very ill and in pain chiefly arising from +the skin being removed in some parts by long lying, +he was generally too uneasy to enjoy conversation +on abstract subjects. This, then, is the best evidence +that can be procured on this subject, and we publish + +460 + +it while the contravening parties are yet alive, and +with the authority of Mr. Woodsworth. + +Gilbert Vale. + +A few weeks ago I received the following letter +which confirms the statement of Mr. Vale: + +Near Stockton, Cal., Green- +wood Cottage, July 9, 1877. + +Col. Ingersoll: In 1842 I talked with a gentle- +man in Boston. I have forgotten his name; but he was +then an engineer of the Charleston navy yard. I am +thus particular so that you can find his name on the +books. He told me that he nursed Thomas Paine +in his last illness, and closed his eyes when dead. I +asked him if he recanted and called upon God to +save him. He replied, "No. He died as he had +taught. He had a sore upon his side and when we +turned him it was very painful and he would cry out +'O God!' or something like that." "But," said +the narrator, "that was nothing, for he believed in a +God." I told him that I had often heard it asserted +from the pulpit that Mr. Paine had recanted in his +last moments. The gentleman said that it was not +true, and he appeared to be an intelligent, truthful +man. With respect, I remain, &c., + +Philip Graves, M. D. + +461 + +The next witness is Willet Hicks, a Quaker +preacher. He says that during the last illness of +Mr. Paine he visited him almost daily, and that +Paine died firmly convinced of the truth of the relig- +ious opinions he had given to his fellow-men. It +was to this same Willet Hicks that Paine applied for +permission to be buried in the cemetery of the +Quakers. Permission was refused. This refusal +settles the question of recantation. If he had re- +canted, of course there could have been no objection +to his body being buried by the side of the best +hypocrites on the earth. + +If Paine recanted why should he be denied "a +little earth for charity"? Had he recanted, it +would have been regarded as a vast and splendid +triumph for the gospel. It would with much noise +and pomp and ostentation have been heralded +about the world. + +I received the following letter to-day. The +writer is well know in this city, and is a man of +high character: + +Peoria, Oct. 8th, 1877. + +Robert G. Ingersoll, Esteemed Friend: My +parents were Friends (Quakers). My father died +when I was very young. The elderly and middle- +aged Friends visited at my mother's house. We + +462 + +lived in the city of New York. Among the number +I distinctly remember Elias Hicks, Willet Hicks, + +and a Mr.-Day, who was a bookseller in Pearl + +street. There were many others, whose names I +do not now remember. The subject of the recanta- +tion by Thomas Paine of his views about the Bible +in his last illness, or at any other time, was dis- +cussed by them in my presence at different times. +I learned from them that some of them had attended +upon Thomas Paine in his last sickness and minis- +tered to his wants up to the time of his death. +And upon the question of whether he did recant +there was but one expression. They all said that +he did not recant in any manner. I often heard +them say they wished he had recanted. In fact, +according to them, the nearer he approached death +the more positive he appeared to be in his con- +victions. + +These conversations were from 1820 to 1822. I +was at that time from ten to twelve years old, but +these conversations impressed themselves upon me +because many thoughtless people then blamed the +Society of Friends for their kindness to that "arch +Infidel," Thomas Paine.. + +Truly yours, + +A. C. Hankinson. + +463 + +A few days ago I received the following letter: +Albany, New York, Sept. 27, 1877. + +Dear Sir: It is over twenty years ago that pro- +fessionally I made the acquaintance of John Hogeboom, + +a Justice of the Peace of the county of +Rensselaer, New York. He was then over seventy +years of age and had the reputation of being a man +of candor and integrity. He was a great admirer of +Paine. He told me that he was personally ac- +quainted with him, and used to see him frequently +during the last years of his life in the city of New +York, where Hogeboom then resided. I asked him +if there was any truth in the charge that Paine was +in the habit of getting drunk. He said that it was +utterly false; that he never heard of such a thing +during the life-time of Mr. Paine, and did not believe +any one else did. I asked him about the recantation +of his religious opinions on his death-bed, and the +revolting death-bed scenes that the world had heard +so much about. He said there was no truth in +them, that he had received his information from +persons who attended Paine in his last illness, "and +that he passed peacefully away, as we may say, in +the sunshine of a great soul."... + +Yours truly, + +W. J. Hilton, + +464 + +The witnesses by whom I substantiate the fact +that Thomas Paine did not recant, and that he died +holding the religious opinions he had published, are: +First--Thomas Nixon, Captain Daniel Pelton, +B. F. Haskin. These gentlemen visited him during +his last illness for the purpose of ascertaining whether +he had in any respect changed his views upon relig- +ion. He told them that he had not. + +Second--James Cheetham. This man was the +most malicious enemy Mr. Paine had, and yet he +admits that "Thomas Paine died placidly, and al- +most without a struggle." (See Life of Thomas +Paine, by James Cheetham). + +Third--The ministers, Milledollar and Cunning- +ham. These gentlemen told Mr. Paine that if he +died without believing in the Lord Jesus Christ he +would be damned, and Paine replied, "Let me have +none of your popish stuff. Good morning." (See +Sherwin's Life of Paine, p. 220). + +Fourth--Mrs. Hedden. She told these same +preachers when they attempted to obtrude them- +selves upon Mr. Paine again, that the attempt to +convert Mr. Paine was useless--"that if God did not +change his mind no human power could." + +Fifth--Andrew A. Dean. This man lived upon +Paine's farm at New Rochelle, and corresponded + +465 + +with him upon religious subjects. (See Paine's +Theological Works, p. 308.) + +Sixth--Mr. Jarvis, the artist with whom Paine +lived. He gives an account of an old lady coming +to Paine and telling him that God Almighty had +sent her to tell him that unless he repented and be- +lieved in the blessed Savior, he would be damned. +Paine replied that God would not send such a foolish +old woman with such an impertinent message. (See +Clio Rickman's Life of Paine.) + +Seventh--Wm. Carver, with whom Paine boarded. +Mr. Carver said again and again that Paine did not +recant. He knew him well, and had every opportun- +ity of knowing. (See Life of Paine by Gilbert Vale.) + +Eighth--Dr. Manley, who attended him in his last +sickness, and to whom Paine spoke his last words. +Dr. Manley asked him if he did not wish to believe in +Jesus Christ, and he replied, "I have no wish to +believe on that subject." + +Ninth--Willet Hicks and Elias Hicks, who were +with him frequently during his last sickness, and +both of whom tried to persuade him to recant. Ac- +cording to their testimony, Mr. Paine died as he had +lived--a believer in God, and a friend of man. +Willet Hicks was offered money to say something +false against Thomas Paine. He was even offered + +466 + +money to remain silent and allow others to slander +the dead. Mr. Hicks, speaking of Thomas Paine, +said: "He was a good man--an honest man." +(Vale's Life of Paine.) + +Tenth--Amasa Woodsworth, who was with him +every day for some six weeks immediately preceding +his death, and sat up with him the last two nights of +his life. This man declares that Paine did not recant +and that he died tranquilly. The evidence of Mr. +Woodsworth is conclusive. + +Eleventh--Thomas Paine himself. The will of +Thomas Paine, written by himself, commences as +follows: + +"The last will and testament of me, the subscriber, +Thomas Paine, reposing confidence in my creator +God, and in no other being, for I know of no other, +nor believe in any other;" and closes in these words; +"I have lived an honest and useful life to mankind; +my time has been spent in doing good, and I die in +perfect composure and resignation to the will of my +creator God." + +Twelfth--If Thomas Paine recanted, why do you +pursue him? If he recanted, he died substantially +in your belief, for what reason then do you denounce +his death as cowardly? If upon his death-bed he +renounced the opinions he had published, the busi- + +467 + +ness of defaming him should be done by Infidels, not +by Christians. + +I ask you if it is honest to throw away the testi- +mony of his friends--the evidence of fair and honor- +able men--and take the putrid words of avowed and +malignant enemies? + +When Thomas Paine was dying, he was infested +by fanatics--by the snaky spies of bigotry. In the +shadows of death were the unclean birds of prey +waiting to tear with beak and claw the corpse of him +who wrote the "Rights of Man." And there lurk- +ing and crouching in the darkness were the jackals +and hyenas of superstition ready to violate his grave. + +These birds of prey--these unclean beasts are the +witnesses produced and relied upon by you. + +One by one the instruments of torture have been +wrenched from the cruel clutch of the church, until +within the armory of orthodoxy there remains but +one weapon--Slander. + +Against the witnesses that I have produced you +can bring just two--Mary Roscoe and Mary Hins- +dale. The first is referred to in the memoir of +Stephen Grellet. She had once been a servant in his +house. Grellet tells what happened between this +girl and Paine. According to this account Paine +asked her if she had ever read any of his writings, + +468 + +and on being told that she had read very little of +them, he inquired what she thought of them, adding +that from such an one as she he expected a correct +answer. + +Let us examine this falsehood. Why would Paine +expect a correct answer about his writings from one +who had read very little of them? Does not such a +statement devour itself? This young lady further +said that the "Age of Reason" was put in her hands +and that the more she read in it the more dark and +distressed she felt, and that she threw the book into +the fire. Whereupon Mr. Paine remarked, "I wish +all had done as you did, for if the devil ever had any +agency in any work, he had it in my writing that book." + +The next is Mary Hinsdale. She was a servant +in the family of Willet Hicks. She, like Mary Ros- +coe, was sent to carry some delicacy to Mr. Paine. +To this young lady Paine, according to her account, +said precisely the same that he did to Mary Roscoe, +and she said the same thing to Mr. Paine. + +My own opinion is that Mary Roscoe and Mary +Hinsdale are one and the same person, or the same +story has been by mistake put in the mouth of both. + +It is not possible that the same conversation should +have taken place between Paine and Mary Roscoe, +and between him and Mary Hinsdale. + +469 + +Mary Hinsdale lived with Willet Hicks and he +pronounced her story a pious fraud and fabrication. +He said that Thomas Paine never said any such +thing to Mary Hinsdale. (See Vale's Life of +Paine.) + +Another thing about this witness. A woman by +the name of Mary Lockwood, a Hicksite Quaker, +died. Mary Hinsdale met her brother about that +time and told him that his sister had recanted, and +wanted her to say so at her funeral. This turned +out to be false. + +It has been claimed that Mary Hinsdale made her +statement to Charles Collins. Long after the alleged +occurrence Gilbert Vale, one of the biographers of +Paine, had a conversation with Collins concerning +Mary Hinsdale. Vale asked him what he thought +of her. He replied that some of the Friends be- +lieved that she used opiates, and that they did not +give credit to her statements. He also said that he +believed what the Friends said, but thought that +when a young woman, she might have told the +truth. + +In 1818 William Cobbett came to New York. +He began collecting materials for a life of Thomas +Paine. In this he became acquainted with Mary +Hinsdale and Charles Collins. Mr. Cobbett gave a + +470 + +full account of what happened in a letter addressed +to the Norwich Mercury in 1819. From this ac- +count it seems that Charles Collins told Cobbett that +Paine had recanted. Cobbett called for the testi- +mony, and told Mr. Collins that he must give time, +place, and the circumstances. He finally brought a +statement that he stated had been made by Mary +Hinsdale. Armed with this document Cobbett, in +October of that year, called upon the said Mary +Hinsdale, at No. 10 Anthony street, New York, and +showed her the statement. Upon being questioned +by Mr. Cobbett she said, "That it was so long ago +that she could not speak positively to any part of the +matter--that she would not say that any part of the +paper was true--that she had never seen the paper +--and that she had never given Charles Collins +authority to say anything about the matter in her +name." And so in the month of October, in the +year of grace 1818, in the mist and fog of forgetful- +ness disappeared forever one Mary Hinsdale--the +last and only witness against the intellectual honesty +of Thomas Paine. + +_Did Thomas Paine live the life of a drunken beast, +and did he die a drunken, cowardly and beastly death?_ + +Upon you rests the burden of substantiating these +infamous charges. + +471 + +You have, I suppose, produced the best evidence +in your possession, and that evidence I will now pro- +ceed to examine. Your first witness is Grant Thor- +burn. He makes three charges against Thomas +Paine, 1st. That his wife obtained a divorce from +him in England for cruelty and neglect. 2d. That +he was a defaulter and fled from England to Amer- +ica. 3d. That he was a drunkard. + +These three charges stand upon the same evidence +--the word of Grant Thorburn. If they are not all +true Mr. Thorburn stands impeached. + +The charge that Mrs. Paine obtained a divorce on +account of the cruelty and neglect of her husband is +utterly false. There is no such record in the world, +and never was. Paine and his wife separated by +mutual consent. Each respected the other. They +remained friends. This charge is without any foun- +dation in fact. I challenge the Christian world to +produce the record of this decree of divorce. Accord- +ing to Mr. Thorburn it was granted in England. In +that country public records are kept of all such de- +crees. Have the kindness to produce this decree +showing that it was given on account of cruelty or +admit that Mr. Thorburn was mistaken. + +Thomas Paine was a just man. Although sepa- +rated from his wife, he always spoke of her with + +472 + +tenderness and respect, and frequently sent her +money without letting her know the source from +whence it came. Was this the conduct of a drunken +beast? + +The second charge, that Paine was a defaulter in +England and fled to America, is equally false. He +did not flee from England. He came to America, +not as a fugitive, but as a free man. He came with +a letter of introduction signed by another Infidel, +Benjamin Franklin. He came as a soldier of Free- +dom--an apostle of Liberty. + +In this second charge there is not one word of truth. + +He held a small office in England. If he was a +defaulter the records of that country will show that +fact. + +Mr. Thorburn, unless the record can be produced +to substantiate him, stands convicted of at least two +mistakes. + +Now, as to the third: He says that in 1802 Paine +was an "old remnant of mortality, drunk, bloated +and half asleep." + +Can any one believe this to be a true account of +the personal appearance of Mr. Paine in 1802? He +had just returned from France. He had been wel- +comed home by Thomas Jefferson, who had said that +he was entitled to the hospitality of every American. + +473 + +In 1802 Mr. Paine was honored with a public din- +ner in the city of New York. He was called upon +and treated with kindness and respect by such men +as DeWitt Clinton. + +In 1806 Mr. Paine wrote a letter to Andrew A. +Dean upon the subject of religion. Read that letter +and then say that the writer of it was an "old rem- +nant of mortality, drunk, bloated and half asleep." +Search the files of the New York Observer from the +first issue to the last, and you will find nothing supe- +rior to this letter. + +In 1803 Mr. Paine wrote a letter of considerable +length, and of great force, to his friend Samuel +Adams. Such letters are not written by drunken +beasts, nor by remnants of old mortality, nor by +drunkards. It was about the same time that he +wrote his "Remarks on Robert Hall's Sermons." + +These "Remarks" were not written by a drunken +beast, but by a clear-headed and thoughtful man. + +In 1804 he published an essay on the invasion of +England, and a treatise on gunboats, full of valuable +maritime information:--in 1805, a treatise on yellow +fever, suggesting modes of prevention. In short, he +was an industrious and thoughtful man. He sympa- +thized with the poor and oppressed of all lands. He +looked upon monarchy as a species of physical + +474 + +slavery. He had the goodness to attack that form +of government. He regarded the religion of his day +as a kind of mental slavery. He had the courage to +give his reasons for his opinion. His reasons filled +the churches with hatred. Instead of answering his +arguments they attacked him. Men who were not +fit to blacken his shoes, blackened his character. + +There is too much religious cant in the statement +of Mr. Thorburn. He exhibited too much anxiety +to tell what Grant Thorburn said to Thomas Paine. +He names Thomas Jefferson as one of the disreputa- +ble men who welcomed Paine with open arms. The +testimony of a man who regarded Thomas Jefferson +as a disreputable person, as to the character of any- +body, is utterly without value. In my judgment, the +testimony of Mr. Thorburn should be thrown aside +as wholly unworthy of belief. + +Your next witness is the Rev. J. D. Wickham, D. +D., who tells what an elder in his church said. This +elder said that Paine passed his last days on his farm +at New Rochelle with a solitary female attendant. +This is not true. He did not pass his last days at +New Rochelle. Consequently this pious elder did +not see him during his last days at that place. Upon +this elder we prove an alibi. Mr. Paine passed his +last days in the city of New York, in a house upon + +475 + +Columbia street. The story of the Rev. J. D. Wick- +ham, D.D., is simply false. + +The next competent false witness is the Rev. +Charles Hawley, D.D., who proceeds to state that +the story of the Rev. J. D. Wickham, D.D., is cor- +roborated by older citizens of New Rochelle. The +names of these ancient residents are withheld. Ac- +cording to these unknown witnesses, the account +given by the deceased elder was entirely correct. +But as the particulars of Mr. Paine's conduct "were +too loathsome to be described in print," we are left +entirely in the dark as to what he really did. + +While at New Rochelle Mr. Paine lived with Mr. +Purdy--with Mr. Dean--with Captain Pelton, and +with Mr. Staple. It is worthy of note that all of +these gentlemen give the lie direct to the statements +of "older residents" and ancient citizens spoken of +by the Rev. Charles Hawley, D.D., and leave him +with his "loathsome particulars" existing only in his +own mind. + +The next gentleman you bring upon the stand is +W. H. Ladd, who quotes from the memoirs of +Stephen Grellet. This gentleman also has the mis- +fortune to be dead. According to his account, Mr. +Paine made his recantation to a servant girl of his +by the name of Mary Roscoe. To this girl, accord- + +476 + +ing to the account, Mr. Paine uttered the wish that +all who read his book had burned it. I believe there +is a mistake in the name of this girl. Her name was +probably Mary Hinsdale, as it was once claimed that +Paine made the same remark to her, but this point +I shall notice hereafter. These are your witnesses, +and the only ones you bring forward, to support +your charge that Thomas Paine lived a drunken and +beastly life and died a drunken, cowardly and beastly +death. All these calumnies are found in a life of +Paine by a Mr. Cheetham, the convicted libeler +already referred to. Mr. Cheetham was an enemy +of the man whose life he pretended to write. + +In order to show you the estimation in which Mr. +Cheetham was held by Mr. Paine, I will give you a +copy of a letter that throws light upon this point: + +October 28, 1807. + +"Mr. Cheetham: Unless you make a public apol- +ogy for the abuse and falsehood in your paper of +Tuesday, October 27th, respecting me, I will prose- +cute you for lying." + +Thomas Paine. + +In another letter, speaking of this same man, Mr. +Paine says: "If an unprincipled bully cannot be re- +formed, he can be punished." "Cheetham has been +so long in the habit of giving false information, that +truth is to him like a foreign language." + +477 + +Mr. Cheetham wrote the life of Paine to gratify +his malice and to support religion. He was prose- +cuted for libel--was convicted and fined. + +Yet the life of Paine written by this man is referred +to by the Christian world as the highest authority. + +As to the personal habits of Mr. Paine, we have +the testimony of William Carver, with whom he +lived; of Mr. Jarvis, the artist, with whom he lived; +of Mr. Staple, with whom he lived; of Mr. Purdy, +who was a tenant of Paine's; of Mr. Burger, with +whom he was intimate; of Thomas Nixon and +Captain Daniel Pelton, both of whom knew him +well; of Amasa Woodsworth, who was with him +when he died; of John Fellows, who boarded at the +same house; of James Wilburn, with whom he +boarded; of B. F. Haskin, a lawyer, who was well +acquainted with him and called upon him during his +last illness; of Walter Morton, a friend; of Clio +Rickman, who had known him for many years; of +Willet and Elias Hicks, Quakers, who knew him in- +timately and well; of Judge Herttell, H. Margary, +Elihu Palmer, and many others. All these testified +to the fact that Mr. Paine was a temperate man. In +those days nearly everybody used spirituous liquors. +Paine was not an exception; but he did not drink to +excess. Mr. Lovett, who kept the City Hotel where + +478 + +Paine stopped, in a note to Caleb Bingham, declared +that Paine drank less than any boarder he had. + +Against all this evidence you produce the story of +Grant Thorburn--the story of the Rev. J. D. Wick- +ham that an elder in his church told him that Paine +was a drunkard, corroborated by the Rev. Charles +Hawley, and an extract from Lossing's history to +the same effect. The evidence is overwhelmingly +against you. Will you have the fairness to admit it? +Your witnesses are merely the repeaters of the false- +hoods of James Cheetham, the convicted libeler. + +After all, drinking is not as bad as lying. An +honest drunkard is better than a calumniator of the +dead. "A remnant of old mortality, drunk, bloated +and half asleep" is better than a perfectly sober +defender of human slavery. + +To become drunk is a virtue compared with steal- +ing a babe from the breast of its mother. + +Drunkenness is one of the beatitudes, compared +with editing a religious paper devoted to the defence +of slavery upon the ground that it is a divine insti- +tution. + +Do you really think that Paine was a drunken +beast when he wrote "Common Sense"--a pamphlet +that aroused three millions of people, as people were +never aroused by a pamphlet before? Was he a + +479 + +drunken beast when he wrote the "Crisis"? Was +it to a drunken beast that the following letter was +addressed: + +Rocky Hill, September 10, 1783. + +"I have learned since I have been at this place, +that you are at Bordentown.--Whether for the sake +of retirement or economy I know not. Be it for +either or both, or whatever it may, if you will come +to this place and partake with me I shall be exceed- +ingly happy to see you at it. Your presence may +remind Congress of your past services to this country; +and if it is in my power to impress them, command +my best exertions with freedom, as they will be +rendered cheerfully by one who entertains a lively +sense of the importance of your works, and who with +much pleasure subscribes himself, + +"Your Sincere Friend, + +"George Washington." + +Did any of your ancestors ever receive a letter +like that? + +Do you think that Paine was a drunken beast +when the following letter was received by him? + +"You express a wish in your letter to return to +America in a national ship; Mr. Dawson, who brings +over the treaty, and who will present you with this +letter, is charged with orders to the captain of the + +480 + +Maryland to receive and accommodate you back, if you +can be ready to depart at such a short warning. You +will in general find us returned to sentiments worthy +of former times; _in these it will be your glory to have +steadily labored and with as much effect as any man +living._ That you may live long to continue your +useful labors, and reap the reward in the _thankfulness +of nations_, is my sincere prayer. Accept the assur- +ances of my high esteem and affectionate attachment." + +Thomas Jefferson. + +Did any of your ancestors ever receive a letter +like that? + +"It has been very generally propagated through +the continent that I wrote the pamphlet 'Common +Sense.' I could not have written anything in so +manly and striking a style."--John Adams. + +"A few more such flaming arguments as were +exhibited at Falmouth and Norfolk, added to the +sound doctrine and unanswerable reasoning con- +tained in the pamphlet 'Common Sense,' will not +leave numbers at a loss to decide on the propriety of +a separation."--George Washington. + +"It is not necessary for me to tell you how +much all your countrymen--I speak of the great +mass of the people--are interested in your welfare. + +481 + +They have not forgotten the history of their own +Revolution and the difficult scenes through which +they passed; nor do they review its several stages +without reviving in their bosoms a due sensibility of +the merits of those who served them in that great +and arduous conflict. The crime of ingratitude has +not yet stained, and I trust never will stain, our +national character. You are considered by them as +not only having rendered important services in our +own Revolution, but as being on a more extensive +scale the friend of human rights, and a distinguished +and able defender of public liberty. To the welfare +of Thomas Paine the Americans are not, nor can +they be indifferent.".. James Monroe. + +Did any of your ancestors ever receive a letter +like that? + +"No writer has exceeded Paine in ease and famil- +iarity of style, in perspicuity of expression, happiness +of elucidation, and in simple and unassuming lan- +guage."'--Thomas Jefferson. + +Was ever a letter like that written about an editor +of the _New York Observer?_ + +Was it in consideration of the services of a +drunken beast that the Legislature of Pennsylvania +presented Thomas Paine with five hundred pounds +sterling? + +482 + +Did the State of New York feel indebted to a +drunken beast, and confer upon Thomas Paine an +estate of several hundred acres? + +"I believe in the equality of man, and I believe +that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving +mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creat- +ures happy." + +"My own mind is my own church." + +"It is necessary to the happiness of man that he +be mentally faithful to himself." + +"Any system of religion that shocks the mind of +a child cannot be a true system." + +"The Word of God is the creation which we +behold." + +"The age of ignorance commenced with the +Christian system." + +"It is with a pious fraud as with a bad action--it +begets a calamitous necessity of going on." + +"To read the Bible without horror, we must undo +everything that is tender, sympathizing and benev- +olent in the heart of man." + +"The man does not exist who can say I have per- +secuted him, or that I have in any case returned evil +for evil." + +"Of all tyrannies that afflict mankind, tyranny in +religion is the worst." + +483 + +"My own opinion is, that those whose lives have +been spent in doing good and endeavoring to make +their fellow-mortals happy, will be happy hereafter." +"The belief in a cruel god makes a cruel man." +"The intellectual part of religion is a private affair +between every man and his Maker, and in which no +third party has any right to interfere. The practical +part consists in our doing good to each other." + +"No man ought to make a living by religion. One +person cannot act religion for another--every person +must perform it for himself." + +"One good schoolmaster is of more use than a +hundred priests." + +"Let us propagate morality unfettered by super- +stition." + +"God is the power, or first cause, Nature is the +law, and matter is the subject acted upon." + +"I believe in one God and no more, and I hope +for happiness beyond this life." + +"The key of heaven is not in the keeping of any +sect nor ought the road to it to be obstructed +by any." + +"My religion, and the whole of it, is the fear and +love of the Deity and universal philanthropy." + +"I have yet, I believe, some years in store, for I +have a good state of health and a happy mind. I + +484 + +take care of both, by nourishing the first with tem- +perance and the latter with abundance." + +"He lives immured within the Bastile of a +word." + +How perfectly that sentence describes you! The +Bastile in which you are immured is the word +"Calvinism." + +"Man has no property in man." + +What a splendid motto that would have made for +the _New York Observer_ in the olden time! + +"The world is my country; to do good, my +religion." + +I ask you again whether these splendid utterances +came from the lips of a drunken beast? + + +_Did Thomas Paine die in destitution and want?_ + +The charge has been made, over and over again, +that Thomas Paine died in want and destitution-- +that he was an abandoned pauper--an outcast with- +out friends and without money. This charge is just +as false as the rest. + +Upon his return to this country in 1802, he was +worth $30,000, according to his own statement made +at that time in the following letter addressed to Clio +Rickman: + +"My Dear Friend: Mr. Monroe, who is appointed +minister extraordinary to France, takes charge of + +485 + +this, to be delivered to Mr. Este, banker in Paris, to +be forwarded to you. + +"I arrived at Baltimore the 30th of October, and +you can have no idea of the agitation which my +arrival occasioned. From New Hampshire to +Georgia (an extent of 1,500 miles) every newspaper +was filled with applause or abuse. + +"My property in this country has been taken care +of by my friends, and is now worth six thousand +pounds sterling; which put in the funds will bring +me £400 sterling a year. + +"Remember me in affection and friendship to your +wife and family, and in the circle of your friends." + +Thomas Paine. + +A man in those days worth thirty thousand dol- +lars was not a pauper. That amount would bring an +income of at least two thousand dollars per annum. +Two thousand dollars then would be fully equal to +five thousand dollars now. + +On the 12th of July, 1809, the year in which he +died, Mr. Paine made his will. From this instru- +ment we learn that he was the owner of a valuable +farm within twenty miles of New York. He also +was the owner of thirty shares in the New York +Phoenix Insurance Company, worth upwards of fif- +teen hundred dollars. Besides this, some personal + +486 + +property and ready money. By his will he gave to +Walter Morton, and Thomas Addis Emmett, brother +of Robert Emmett, two hundred dollars each, and +one hundred to the widow of Elihu Palmer. + +Is it possible that this will was made by a pauper +--by a destitute outcast--by a man who suffered for +the ordinary necessaries of life? + +But suppose, for the sake of the argument, that he +was poor and that he died a beggar, does that tend +to show that the Bible is an inspired book and that +Calvin did not burn Servetus? Do you really regard +poverty as a crime? If Paine had died a millionaire, +would you have accepted his religious opinions? If +Paine had drank nothing but cold water would you +have repudiated the five cardinal points of Calvin- +ism? Does an argument depend for its force upon +the pecuniary condition of the person making it? +As a matter of fact, most reformers--most men and +women of genius, have been acquainted with poverty. +Beneath a covering of rags have been found some of +the tenderest and bravest hearts. + +Owing to the attitude of the churches for the last +fifteen hundred years, truth-telling has not been a +very lucrative business. As a rule, hypocrisy has +worn the robes, and honesty the rags. That day is +passing away. You cannot now answer the argu- + +487 + +ments of a man by pointing at holes in his coat. +Thomas Paine attacked the church when it was +powerful--when it had what was called honors to +bestow--when it was the keeper of the public con- +science--when it was strong and cruel. The church +waited till he was dead then attacked his reputation +and his clothes. + +Once upon a time a donkey kicked a lion. The +lion was dead. + +Conclusion. + +From the persistence with which the orthodox +have charged for the last sixty-eight years that +Thomas Paine recanted, and that when dying he +was filled with remorse and fear; from the malignity +of the attacks upon his personal character, I had con- +cluded that there must be some evidence of some +kind to support these charges. Even with my ideas +of the average honor of believers in superstition-- +the disciples of fear--I did not quite believe that all +these infamies rested solely upon poorly attested +lies. I had charity enough to suppose that some- +thing had been said or done by Thomas Paine capa- +ble of being tortured into a foundation for these +calumnies. And I was foolish enough to think that +even you would be willing to fairly examine the pre- +tended evidence said to sustain these charges, and + +488 + +give your honest conclusion to the world. I sup- +posed that you, being acquainted with the history of +your country, felt under a certain obligation to +Thomas Paine for the splendid services rendered by +him in the darkest days of the Revolution. It was +only reasonable to suppose that you were aware that +in the midnight of Valley Forge the "Crisis," by +Thomas Paine, was the first star that glittered in the +wide horizon of despair. I took it for granted that +you knew of the bold stand taken and the brave +words spoken by Thomas Paine, in the French Con- +vention, against the death of the king. I thought it +probable that you, being an editor, had read the +"Rights of Man;" that you knew that Thomas +Paine was a champion of human liberty; that he was +one of the founders and fathers of this Republic; that +he was one of the foremost men of his age; that he +had never written a word in favor of injustice; that +he was a despiser of slavery; that he abhorred tyr- +anny in all its forms; that he was in the widest and +highest sense a friend of his race; that his head was +as clear as his heart was good, and that he had the +courage to speak his honest thought. Under these +circumstances I had hoped that you would for the +moment forget your religious prejudices and submit +to the enlightened judgment of the world the evi- + +489 + +dence you had, or could obtain, affecting in any way +the character of so great and so generous a man. This +you have refused to do. In my judgment, you have +mistaken the temper of even your own readers. A +large majority of the religious people of this country +have, to a considerable extent, outgrown the preju- +dices of their fathers. They are willing to know the +truth and the whole truth, about the life and death of +Thomas Paine. They will not thank you for having +presented them the moss-covered, the maimed and dis- +torted traditions of ignorance, prejudice, and credulity. +By this course you will convince them not of the +wickedness of Paine, but of your own unfairness. + +What crime had Thomas Paine committed that he +should have feared to die? The only answer you +can give is, that he denied the inspiration of the +Scriptures. If this is a crime, the civilized world is +filled with criminals. The pioneers of human thought +--the intellectual leaders of the world--the foremost +men in every science--the kings of literature and +art--those who stand in the front rank of investiga- +tion--the men who are civilizing, elevating, instruct- +ing, and refining mankind, are to-day unbelievers in +the dogma of inspiration. Upon this question, the +intellect of Christendom agrees with the conclusions +reached by the genius of Thomas Paine. Centuries + +490 + +ago a noise was made for the purpose of frightening +mankind. Orthodoxy is the echo of that noise. + +The man who now regards the Old Testament as +in any sense a sacred or inspired book is, in my judg- +ment, an intellectual and moral deformity. There is +in it so much that is cruel, ignorant, and ferocious +that it is to me a matter of amazement that it was +ever thought to be the work of a most merciful deity. + +Upon the question of inspiration Thomas Paine +gave his honest opinion. Can it be that to give an +honest opinion causes one to die in terror and de- +spair? Have you in your writings been actuated by +the fear of such a consequence? Why should it be +taken for granted that Thomas Paine, who devoted +his life to the sacred cause of freedom, should have +been hissed at in the hour of death by the snakes of +conscience, while editors of Presbyterian papers who +defended slavery as a divine institution, and cheer- +fully justified the stealing of babes from the breasts of +mothers, are supposed to have passed smilingly from +earth to the embraces of angels? Why should you +think that the heroic author of the "Rights of Man" +should shudderingly dread to leave this "bank and +shoal of time," while Calvin, dripping with the blood +of Servetus, was anxious to be judged of God? Is +it possible that the persecutors--the instigators of + +491 + +the massacre of St. Bartholomew--the inventors and +users of thumb-screws, and iron boots, and racks-- +the burners and tearers of human flesh--the stealers, +whippers and enslavers of men--the buyers and +beaters of babes and mothers--the founders of +inquisitions--the makers of chains, the builders of +dungeons, the slanderers of the living and the calum- +niators of the dead, all died in the odor of sanctity, +with white, forgiven hands folded upon the breasts +of peace, while the destroyers of prejudice--the +apostles of humanity--the soldiers of liberty--the +breakers of fetters--the creators of light--died sur- +rounded with the fierce fiends of fear? + +In your attempt to destroy the character of Thomas +Paine you have failed, and have succeeded only in +leaving a stain upon your own. You have written +words as cruel, bitter and heartless as the creed of +Calvin. Hereafter you will stand in the pillory of +history as a defamer--a calumniator of the dead. +You will be known as the man who said that Thomas +Paine, the "Author Hero," lived a drunken, coward- +ly and beastly life, and died a drunken and beastly +death. These infamous words will be branded upon +the forehead of your reputation. They will be re- +membered against you when all else you may have +uttered shall have passed from the memory of men. + +Robert G. Ingersoll. + + + + +THE OBSERVER'S SECOND ATTACK + + _* From the NY. Observer of Nov. 1, 1877._ + + +TOM PAINE AGAIN. + +In the Observer of September 27th, in response +to numerous calls from different parts of the country +for information, and in fulfillment of a promise, we +presented a mass of testimony, chiefly from persons +with whom we had been personally acquainted, +establishing the truth of our assertions in regard to +the dissolute life and miserable end of Paine. It was +not a pleasing subject for discussion, and an apology, +or at least an explanation, is due to our readers for +resuming it, and for occupying so much space, or +any space, in exhibiting the truth and the proofs in +regard to the character of a man who had become so +debased by his intemperance, and so vile in his +habits, as to be excluded, for many years before and +up to the time of his death, from all decent society. + +Our reasons for taking up the subject at all, and +for presenting at this time so much additional testi- +mony in regard to the facts of the case, are these: +At different periods for the last fifty years, efforts + +493 + +have been made by Infidels to revive and honor the +memory of one whose friends would honor him most +by suffering his name to sink into oblivion, if that +were possible. About two years since, Rev. O. B. +Frothingham, of this city, came to their aid, and +undertook a sort of championship of Paine, making +in a public discourse this statement: "No private +character has been more foully calumniated in the +name of God than that of Thomas Paine." (Mr. +Frothingham, it will be remembered, is the one who +recently, in a public discourse, announced the down- +fall of Christianity, although he very kindly made +the allowance that, "it may be a thousand years +before its decay will be visible to all eyes." It is +our private opinion that it will be at least a thousand +and one.) Rev. John W. Chadwick, a minister of +the same order of unbelief, who signs himself, "Min- +ister of the Second Unitarian Society in Brooklyn," +has devoted two discourses to the same end, eulogiz- +ing Paine. In one of these, which we have before +us in a handsomely printed pamphlet, entitled, +"Method and Value of his (Paine's) Religious +Teachings," he says: "Christian usage has determ- +ined that an Infidel means one who does not believe +in Christianity as a supernatural religion; in the +Bible as a Supernatural book; in Jesus as a super- + +494 + +natural person. And in this sense Paine was an +Infidel, and so, thank God, am I." It is proper to +add that Unitarians generally decline all responsibil- +ity for the utterances of both of these men, and that +they compose a denomination, or rather two denom- +inations, of their own. + +There is also a certain class of Infidels who are +not quite prepared to meet the odium that attaches +to the name; they call themselves Christians, but +their sympathies are all with the enemies of Chris- +tianity, and they are not always able to conceal it. +They have not the courage of their opinions, like +Mr. Frothingham and Mr. Chadwick, and they work +only sideways toward the same end. We have been +no little amused since our last article on this subject +appeared, to read some of the articles that have been +written on the other side, though professedly on no +side, and to observe how sincerely these men depre- +cate the discussion of the character of Paine, as an +unprofitable topic. It never appeared to them un- +profitable when the discussion was on the other side. + +Then, too, we have for months past been receiving +letters from different parts of the country, asking +authentic information on the subject and stating that +the followers of Paine are making extraordinary +efforts to circulate his writings against the Christian + +495 + +religion, and in order to give currency to these writ- +ings they are endeavoring to rescue his name from +the disgrace into which it sank during the latter +years of his life. Paine spent several of his last +years in furnishing a commentary upon his Infidel +principles. This commentary was contained in his +besotted, degraded life and miserable end, but his +friends do not wish the commentary to go out in +connection with his writings. They prefer to have +them read without the comments by their author. +Hence this anxiety to free the great apostle of +Infidelity from the obloquy which his life brought +upon his name; to represent him as a pure, noble, +virtuous man, and to make it appear that he died a +peaceful, happy death, just like a philosopher. + +But what makes the publication of the facts in the +case still more imperative at this time is the whole- +sale accusation brought against the Christian public +by the friends and admirers of Paine. Christian +ministers as a class, and Christian journals are +expressly accused of falsifying history, of defaming +"the mighty dead!" (meaning Paine,) &c., &c. In +the face of all these accusations it cannot be out of +place to state the facts and to fortify the statement +by satisfactory evidence, as we are abundantly able +to do. + +496 + +The two points on which we proposed to produce +the testimony are, the character of Paine's life (refer- +ring of course to his last residence in this country, +for no one has intimated that he had sunk into such +besotted drunkenness until about the time of his +return to the United States in 1802), and the real +character of his death as consistent with such a life, +and as marked further by the cowardliness, which +has been often exhibited by Infidels in the same +circumstances. + +It is nothing at all to the purpose to show, as his +friends are fond of doing, that Paine rendered +important service to the cause of American Inde- +pendence. This is not the point under discussion +and is not denied. No one ever called in question +the valuable service that Benedict Arnold rendered +to the country in the early part of the Revolutionary +war; but this, with true Americans, does not suffice +to cast a shade of loveliness or even to spread a man- +tle of charity over his subsequent career. Whatever +share Paine had in the personal friendship of the +fathers of the Revolution he forfeited by his subse- +quent life of beastly drunkenness and degradation, +and on this account as well as on account of his +blasphemy he was shunned by all decent people. + +We wish to make one or two corrections of mis- + +497 + +statements by Paine's advocates, on which a vast +amount of argument has been simply wasted. We +have never stated in any form, nor have we ever +supposed, that Paine actually renounced his Infidel- +ity. The accounts agree in stating that he died a +blaspheming Infidel, and his horrible death we regard +as one of the fruits, the fitting complement of his +Infidelity. We have never seen anything that +encouraged the hope that he was not abandoned of +God in his last hours. But we have no doubt, on +the other hand, that having become a wreck in body +and mind through his intemperance, abandoned of +God, deserted by his Infidel companions, and de- +pendent upon Christian charity for the attentions he +received, miserable beyond description in his condi- +tion, and seeing nothing to hope for in the future, he +was afraid to die, and was ready to call upon God +and upon Christ for mercy, and ready perhaps in the +next minute to blaspheme. This is what we referred +to in speaking of Paine's death as cowardly. It is +shown in the testimony we have produced, and still +more fully in that which we now present. The most +wicked men are ready to call upon God in seasons +of great peril, and sometimes ask for Christian min- +istrations when in extreme illness; but they are +often ready on any alleviation of distress to turn to + +498 + +their wickedness again, in the expressive language +of Scripture, "as the sow that was washed to her +wallowing in the mire." + +We have never stated or intimated, nor, so far as +we are aware, has any one of our correspondents +stated, that Paine died in poverty. It has been +frequently and truthfully stated that Paine was de- +pendent on Christian charity for the attentions he +received in his last days, and so he was. His Infidel +companions forsook him and Christian hearts and +hands ministered to his wants, notwithstanding the +blasphemies of his death-bed. + +Nor has one of our correspondents stated, as +alleged, that Paine died at New Rochelle. The +Rev. Dr. Wickham, who was a resident of that place +nearly fifty years ago, and who was perfectly familiar +with the facts of his life, wrote that Paine spent "his +latter days" on the farm presented to him by +the State of New York, which was strictly true, +but made no reference to it as the place of his +death. + +Such misrepresentations serve to show how much +the advocates of Paine admire "truth." + +With these explanations we produce further evi- +dence in regard to the manner of Paine's life and the +character of his death, both of which we have already + +499 + +characterized in appropriate terms, as the following +testimony will show. + +In regard to Paine's "personal habits," even before +his return to this country, and particularly his aver- +sion to soap and water, Elkana Watson, a gentleman +of the highest social position, who resided in France +during a part of the Revolutionary war, and who +was the personal friend of Washington, Franklin, +and other patriots of the period, makes some inci- +dental statements in his "Men and Times of the +Revolution." Though eulogizing Paine's efforts in +behalf of American Independence, he describes him +as "coarse and uncouth in his manners, loathsome +in his appearance, and a disgusting egotist." On +Paine's arrival at Nantes, the Mayor and other dis- +tinguished citizens called upon him to pay their +respects to the American patriot. Mr. Watson says: +"He was soon rid of his respectable visitors, who +left the room with marks of astonishment and dis- +gust." Mr. W., after much entreaty, and only by +promising him a bundle of newspapers to read while +undergoing the operation, succeeded in prevailing +on Paine to "stew, for an hour, in a hot bath." Mr. +W. accompanied Paine to the bath, and "instructed +the keeper, in French, (which Paine did not under- +stand,) gradually to increase the heat of the water + +500 + +until 'le Monsieur serait bien bouille (until the gentle- +man shall be well boiled;) and adds that "he became +so much absorbed in his reading that he was nearly- +parboiled before leaving the bath, much to his im- +provement and my satisfaction." + +William Carver has been cited as a witness in be- +half of Paine, and particularly as to his "personal +habits." In a letter to Paine, dated December 2, +1776, he bears the following testimony: + +"A respectable gentlemen from New Rochelle +called to see me a few days back, and said that +everybody was tired of you there, and no one would +undertake to board and lodge you. I thought this +was the case, as I found you at a tavern in a most +miserable situation. You appeared as if you had +not been shaved for a fortnight, and as to a shirt, it +could not be said that you had one on. It was only +the remains of one, and this, likewise, appeared not +to have been off your back for a fortnight, and was +nearly the color of tanned leather; and you had the +most disagreeable smell possible; just like that of +our poor beggars in England. Do you remember the +pains I took to clean you? that I got a tub of warm +water and soap and washed you from head to foot, and +this I had to do three times before I could get you +clean." (And then follow more disgusting details.) + +501 + +"You say, also, that you found your own liquors +during the time you boarded with me; but you +should have said, 'I found only a small part of the +liquor I drank during my stay with you; this part I +purchased of John Fellows, which was a demijohn of +brandy containing four gallons, and this did not serve +me three weeks.' This can be proved, and I mean +not to say anything that I cannot prove; for I hold +truth as a precious jewel. It is a well-known fact, +that you drank one quart of brandy per day, at my +expense, during the different times that you have +boarded with me, the demijohn above mentioned +excepted, and the last fourteen weeks you were sick. +Is not this a supply of liquor for dinner and supper?" +This chosen witness in behalf of Paine, closes his +letter, which is full of loathsome descriptions of +Paine's manner of life, as follows: + +"Now, sir, I think I have drawn a complete por- +trait of your character; yet to enter upon every +minutiae would be to give a history of your life, and +to develop the fallacious mask of hypocrisy and de- +ception under which you have acted in your political +as well as moral capacity of life." + +(Signed) "William Carver." + +Carver had the same opinion of Paine to his dying +day. When an old man, and an Infidel of the Paine + +502 + +type and habits, he was visited by the Rev. E. F. +Hatfield, D.D., of this city, who writes to us of his +interview with Carver, under date of Sept. 27, 1877: +"I conversed with him nearly an hour. I took +special pains to learn from him all that I could about +Paine, whose landlord he had been for eighteen +months. He spoke of him as a base and shameless +drunkard, utterly destitute of moral principle. His +denunciations of the man were perfectly fearful, and +fully confirmed, in my apprehension, all that had been +written of Paine's immorality and repulsiveness." +Cheetham's Life of Paine, which was published +the year that he died, and which has passed through +several editions (we have three of them now before +us) describes a man lost to all moral sensibility and +to all sense of decency, a habitual drunkard, and it is +simply incredible that a book should have appeared +so soon after the death of its subject and should have +been so frequently republished without being at once +refuted, if the testimony were not substantially true. +Many years later, when it was found necessary to +bolster up the reputation of Paine, Cheetham's +Memoirs were called a pack of lies. If only one- +tenth part of what he publishes circumstantially in +his volume, as facts in regard to Paine, were true, all +that has been written against him in later years does + +503 + +not begin to set forth the degraded character of the +man's life. And with all that has been written on +the subject we see no good reason to doubt the sub- +stantial accuracy of Cheetham's portrait of the man +whom he knew so well. + +Dr. J. W. Francis, well-known as an eminent phy- +sician, of this city, in his Reminiscences of New York, +says of Paine: + +"He who, in his early days, had been associated +with, and had received counsel from Franklin, was, +in his old age, deserted by the humblest menial; he, +whose pen has proved a very sword among nations, +had shaken empires, and made kings tremble, now +yielded up the mastery to the most treacherous of +tyrants, King Alcohol." + +The physician who attended Paine during his last +illness was Dr. James R. Manley, a gentleman of the +highest character. A letter of his, written in Octo- +ber of the year that Paine died, fully corroborates +the account of his state as recorded by Stephen +Grellet in his Memoirs, which we have already +printed. He writes: + +"New York, October 2, 1809: I was called upon +by accident to visit Mr. Paine, on the 25th of Feb- +ruary last, and found him indisposed with fever, and +very apprehensive of an attack of apoplexy, as he + +504 + +stated that he had that disease before, and at this +time felt a great degree of vertigo, and was unable +to help himself as he had hitherto done, on account +of an intense pain above the eyes. On inquiry of +the attendants I was told that three or four days +previously he had concluded to dispense with his +usual quantity of accustomed stimulus and that he +had on that day resumed it. To the want of his +usual drink they attributed his illness, and it is highly +probable that the usual quantity operating upon a +state of system more excited from the above priva- +tions, was the cause of the symptoms of which he +then complained.... And here let me be per- +mitted to observe (lest blame might attach to those +whose business it was to pay any particular attention +to his cleanliness of person) that it was absolutely +impossible to effect that purpose. Cleanliness ap- +peared to make no part of his comfort; he seemed +to have a singular aversion to soap and water; he +would never ask to be washed, and when he was he +would always make objections; and it was not un- +usual to wash and to dress him clean very much +against his inclinations. In this deplorable state, +with confirmed dropsy, attended with frequent cough, +vomiting and hiccough, he continued growing from +bad to worse till the morning of the 8th of June, + +505 + +when he died. Though I may remark that during +the last three weeks of his life his situation was such +that his decease was confidently expected every day, +his ulcers having assumed a gangrenous appearance, +being excessively fetid, and discolored blisters hav- +ing taken place on the soles of his feet without any +ostensible cause, which baffled the usual attempts to +arrest their progress; and when we consider his +former habits, his advanced age, the feebleness of his +constitution, his constant habit of using ardent spirits +ad libitum till the commencement of his last illness, +so far from wondering that he died so soon, we are +constrained to ask, How did he live so long? Con- +cerning his conduct during his disease I have not +much to remark, though the little I have may be +somewhat interesting. Mr. Paine professed to be +above the fear of death, and a great part of his con- +versation was principally directed to give the impres- +sion that he was perfectly willing to leave this world, +and yet some parts of his conduct were with difficulty +reconcilable with his belief. In the first stages of his +illness he was satisfied to be left alone during the +day, but he required some person to be with him at +night, urging as his reason that he was afraid that +he should die when unattended, and at this period +his deportment and his principle seemed to be con- + +506 + +sistent; so much so that a stranger would judge from +some of the remarks he would make that he was an +Infidel. I recollect being with him at night, watch- +ing; he was very apprehensive of a speedy dissolu- +tion, and suffered great distress of body, and perhaps +of mind (for he was waiting the event of an applica- +tion to the Society of Friends for permission that his +corpse might be deposited in their grave-ground, and +had reason to believe that the request might be +refused), when he remarked in these words, 'I think +I can say what they made Jesus Christ to say--"My +God, my God! why hast thou forsaken me?" He +went on to observe on the want of that respect which +he conceived he merited, when I observed to him +that I thought his corpse should be matter of least +concern to him; that those whom he would leave +behind him would see that he was properly interred, +and, further, that it would be of little consequence to +me where I was deposited provided I was buried; +upon which he answered that he had nothing else to +talk about, and that he would as lief talk of his death +as of anything, but that he was not so indifferent +about his corpse as I appeared to be. + +"During the latter part of his life, though his con- +versation was equivocal, his conduct was singular; +he could not be left alone night or day; he not only + +507 + +required to have some person with him, but he must +see that he or she was there, and would not allow +his curtain to be closed at any time; and if, as it +would sometimes unavoidably happen, he was left +alone, he would scream and halloo until some person +came to him. When relief from pain would admit, +he seemed thoughtful and contemplative, his eyes +being generally closed, and his hands folded upon +his breast, although he never slept without the assist- +ance of an anodyne. There was something remark- +able in his conduct about this period (which comprises +about two weeks immediately preceding his death), +particularly when we reflect that Thomas Paine was +the author of the 'Age of Reason.' He would call +out during his paroxysms of distress, without inter- +mission, 'O Lord help me! God help me! Jesus +Christ help me! Lord help me!' etc., repeating the +same expressions without the least variation, in a +tone of voice that would alarm the house. It was +this conduct which induced me to think that he had +abandoned his former opinions, and I was more +inclined to that belief when I understood from his +nurse (who is a very serious and, I believe, pious +woman), that he would occasionally inquire, when he +saw her engaged with a book, what she was reading, +and, being answered, and at the same time asked + +508 + +whether she should read aloud, he assented, and +would appear to give particular attention. + +"I took occasion during the nights of the fifth +and sixth of June to test the strength of his opinions +respecting revelation. I purposely made him a very +late visit; it was a time which seemed to suit exactly +with my errand; it was midnight, he was in great +distress, constantly exclaiming in the words above +mentioned, when, after a considerable preface, I +addressed him in the following manner, the nurse +being present: 'Mr. Paine, your opinions, by a large +portion of the community, have been treated with +deference, you have never been in the habit of mix- +ing in your conversation words of coarse meaning; +you have never indulged in the practice of profane +swearing; you must be sensible that we are ac- +quainted with your religious opinions as they are +given to the world. What must we think of your +present conduct? Why do you call upon Jesus +Christ to help you? Do you believe that he can +help you? Do you believe in the divinity of Jesus +Christ? Come, now, answer me honestly. I want +an answer from the lips of a dying man, for I verily +believe that you will not live twenty-four hours.' I +waited some time at the end of every question; he +did not answer, but ceased to exclaim in the above + +509 + +manner. Again I addressed him; 'Mr. Paine, you +have not answered my questions; will you answer +them? Allow me to ask again, do you believe? or +let me qualify the question, do you wish to believe +that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?' After a pause +of some minutes, he answered, 'I have no wish to +believe on that subject.' I then left him, and knew +not whether he afterward spoke to any person on +any subject, though he lived, as I before observed, +till the morning of the 8th. Such conduct, under +usual circumstances, I conceive absolutely unaccount- +able, though, with diffidence, I would remark, not so +much so in the present instance; for though the first +necessary and general result of conviction be a sin- +cere wish to atone for evil committed, yet it may be +a question worthy of able consideration whether +excessive pride of opinion, consummate vanity, and +inordinate self-love might not prevent or retard that +otherwise natural consequence. For my own part, +I believe that had not Thomas Paine been such a +distinguished Infidel he would have left less equivo- +cal evidences of a change of opinion. Concerning +the persons who visited Mr. Paine in his distress as +his personal friends, I heard very little, though I may +observe that their number was small, and of that +number there were not wanting those who endeavor- + +510 + +ed to support him in his deistical opinions, and to +encourage him to 'die like a man,' to 'hold fast his +integrity,' lest Christians, or, as they were pleased to +term them, hypocrites, might take advantage of his +weakness, and furnish themselves with a weapon by +which they might hope to destroy their glorious sys- +tem of morals. Numbers visited him from motives +of benevolence and Christian charity, endeavoring to +effect a change of mind in respect to his religious +sentiments. The labor of such was apparently lost, +and they pretty generally received such treatment +from him as none but good men would risk a second +time, though some of those persons called frequently." +The following testimony will be new to most of +our readers. It is from a letter written by Bishop +Fenwick (Roman Catholic Bishop of Boston), con- +taining a full account of a visit which he paid to +Paine in his last illness. It was printed in the _United +States Catholic Magazine_ for 1846; in the _Catholic +Herald_ of Philadelphia, October 15, 1846; in a sup- +plement to the _Hartford Courant_, October 23, 1847; +and in _Littell's Living Age_ for January 22, 1848, +from which we copy. Bishop Fenwick writes: + +"A short time before Paine died I was sent for by +him. He was prompted to this by a poor Catholic +woman who went to see him in his sickness, and + +511 + +who told him, among other things, that in his +wretched condition if anybody could do him any +good it would be a Roman Catholic priest. This +woman was an American convert (formerly a Shak- +ing Quakeress) whom I had received into the church +but a few weeks before. She was the bearer of this +message to me from Paine. I stated this circum- +stance to F. Kohlmann, at breakfast, and requested +him to accompany me. After some solicitation on +my part he agreed to do so? at which I was greatly +rejoiced, because I was at the time quite young and +inexperienced in the ministry, and was glad to have +his assistance, as I knew, from the great reputation +of Paine, that I should have to do with one of the +most impious as well as infamous of men. We +shortly after set out for the house at Greenwich +where Paine lodged, and on the way agreed on a +mode of proceeding with him. + +"We arrived at the house; a decent-looking elderly +woman (probably his housekeeper,) came to the +door and inquired whether we were the Catholic +priests, for said she, 'Mr. Paine has been so much +annoyed of late by other denominations calling upon +him that he has left express orders with me to admit +no one to-day but the clergymen of the Catholic +Church. Upon assuring her that we were Catholic + +512 + +clergymen she opened the door and showed us into +the parlor. She then left the room and shortly after +returned to inform us that Paine was asleep, and, at +the same time, expressed a wish that we would not +disturb him, 'for,' said she, 'he is always in a bad +humor when roused out of his sleep. It is better we +wait a little till he be awake.' We accordingly sat +down and resolved to await a more favorable moment. +'Gentlemen,' said the lady, after having taken her +seat also, 'I really wish you may succeed with Mr. +Paine, for he is laboring under great distress of mind +ever since he was informed by his physicians that he +cannot possibly live and must die shortly. He sent +for you to-day because he was told that if any one +could do him good you might. Possibly he may +think you know of some remedy which his physicians +are ignorant of. He is truly to be pitied. His cries +when he is left alone are heart-rending. 'O Lord +help me!' he will exclaim during his paroxysms of +distress--'God help me--Jesus Christ help me!' +repeating the same expressions without the least +variation, in a tone of voice that would alarm the +house. Sometimes he will say, 'O God, what have +I done to suffer so much!' then, shortly after, 'But +there is no God,' and again a little after, 'Yet if +there should be, what would become of me hereafter.' + +513 + +Thus he will continue for some time, when on a sud- +den he will scream, as if in terror and agony, and +call out for me by name. On one of these occasions, +which are very frequent, I went to him and inquired +what he wanted. 'Stay with me,' he replied, 'for +God's sake, for I cannot bear to be left alone.' I +then observed that I could not always be with him, +as I had much to attend to in the house. 'Then,' said +he, 'send even a child to stay with me, for it is a +hell to be alone.' 'I never saw,' she concluded, 'a +more unhappy, a more forsaken man. It seems he +cannot reconcile himself to die.' + +"Such was the conversation of the woman who +had received us, and who probably had been employ- +ed to nurse and take care of him during his illness. +She was a Protestant, yet seemed very desirous that +we should afford him some relief in his state of +abandonment, bordering on complete despair. Hav- +ing remained thus some time in the parlor, we at +length heard a noise in the adjoining passage-way, +which induced us to believe that Mr. Paine, who was +sick in that room, had awoke. We accordingly pro- +posed to proceed thither, which was assented to by +the woman, and she opened the door for us. On +entering, we found him just getting out of his +slumber. A more wretched being in appearance I + +514 + +never beheld. He was lying in a bed sufficiently +decent of itself, but at present besmeared with filth; +his look was that of a man greatly tortured in mind; +his eyes haggard, his countenance forbidding, and +his whole appearance that of one whose better days +had been one continued scene of debauch. His only +nourishment at this time, as we were informed, was +nothing more than milk punch, in which he indulged +to the full extent of his weak state. He had par- +taken, undoubtedly, but very recently of it, as the +sides and corners of his mouth exhibited very un- +equivocal traces of it, as well as of blood, which had +also followed in the track and left its mark on the +pillow. His face, to a certain extent, had also been +besmeared with it." + +Immediately upon their making known the object +of their visit, Paine interrupted the speaker by say- +ing: "That's enough, sir; that's enough," and again +interrupting him, "I see what you would be about. +I wish to hear no more from you, sir. My mind is +made up on that subject. I look upon the whole of +the Christian scheme to be a tissue of absurdities +and lies, and Jesus Christ to be nothing more than a +cunning knave and impostor." He drove them out +of the room, exclaiming: Away with you and your +God, too; leave the room instantly; all that you + +515 + +have uttered are lies--filthy lies; and if I had a +little more time I would prove it, as I did about +your impostor, Jesus Christ." + +This, we think, will suffice. We have a mass of +letters containing statements confirmatory of what +we have published in regard to the life and death of +Paine, but nothing more can be required. + + + + +INGERSOLL'S SECOND REPLY. + +Peoria, Nov. 2d, 1877. + +To the Editor of the New York Observer: + +You ought to have honesty enough to admit that +you did, in your paper of July 19th, offer to prove +that the absurd story that Thomas Paine died in +terror and agony on account of the religious opinions +he had expressed, was true. You ought to have +fairness enough to admit that you called upon me +to deposit one thousand dollars with an honest man, +that you might, by proving that Thomas Paine did +die in terror, obtain the money. + +You ought to have honor enough to admit that +you challenged me and that you commenced the +controversy concerning Thomas Paine. + +You ought to have goodness enough to admit +that you were mistaken in the charges you made. + +You ought to have manhood enough to do what +you falsely asserted that Thomas Paine did:--you +ought to recant. You ought to admit publicly that +you slandered the dead; that you falsified history; +that you defamed the defenceless; that you deliber- + +517 + +ately denied what you had published in your own +paper. There is an old saying to the effect that +open confession is good for the soul. To you is +presented a splendid opportunity of testing the truth +of this saying. + +Nothing has astonished me more than your lack +of common honesty exhibited in this controversy. In +your last, you quote from Dr. J. W. Francis. Why +did you leave out that portion in which Dr. Francis +says _that Cheetham with settled malignity wrote the +life of Paine?_ Why did you leave out that part in +which Dr. Francis says that Cheetham in the same +way _slandered Alexander Hamilton and De Witt +Clinton?_ Is it your business to suppress the truth? +Why did you not publish the entire letter of Bishop +Fenwick? Was it because it proved beyond all +cavil that Thomas Paine did not recant? Was it +because in the light of that letter Mary Roscoe, +Mary Hinsdale and Grant Thorburn appeared un- +worthy of belief? Dr. J. W. Francis says in the +same article from which you quoted, "_Paine clung to +his Infidelity until the last moment of his life!'_ Why +did you not publish that? It was the first line im- +mediately above what you did quote. You must +have seen it. Why did you suppress it? A lawyer, +doing a thing of this character, is denominated a + +518 + +shyster. I do not know the appropriate word to +designate a theologian guilty of such an act. + +You brought forward three witnesses, pretending +to have personal knowledge about the life and death +of Thomas Paine: Grant Thorburn, Mary Roscoe +and Mary Hinsdale. In my reply I took the ground +that Mary Roscoe and Mary Hinsdale must have +been the same person. I thought it impossible that +Paine should have had a conversation with Mary +Roscoe, and then one precisely like it with Mary +Hinsdale. Acting upon this conviction, I proceeded +to show that the conversation never could have hap- +pened, that it was absurdly false to say that Paine +asked the opinion of a girl as to his works who had +never read but little of them. I then showed by the +testimony of William Cobbett, that he visited Mary +Hinsdale in 1819, taking with him a statement con- +cerning the recantation of Paine, given him by Mr. +Collins, and that upon being shown this statement +she said that "it was so long ago that she could not +speak positively to any part of the matter--that she +would not say any part of the paper was true." At +that time she knew nothing, and remembered noth- +ing. I also showed that she was a kind of standing +witness to prove that others recanted. Willett Hicks +denounced her as unworthy of belief. + +519 + +To-day the following from the New York _World_ +was received, showing that I was right in my +conjecture: + + +Tom Paine's Death-Bed. + +_To the Editor of the World_: + +Sir: I see by your paper that Bob Ingersoll dis- +credits Mary Hinsdale's story of the scenes which +occurred at the death-bed of Thomas Paine. No +one who knew that good lady would for one moment +doubt her veracity or question her testimony. Both +she and her husband were Quaker preachers, and +well known and respected inhabitants of New York +City, _Ingersoll is right in his conjecture that Mary +Roscoe and Mary Hinsdale was the same person_. Her +maiden name was Roscoe, and she married Henry +Hinsdale. My mother was a Roscoe, a niece of +Mary Roscoe, and lived with her for some time. I +have heard her relate the story of Tom Paine's dying +remorse, as told her by her aunt, who was a witness +to it. She says (in a letter I have just received from +her), "he (Tom Paine) suffered fearfully from remorse, +and renounced his Infidel principles, calling on God +to forgive him, and wishing his pamphlets and books +to be burned, saying he could not die in peace until +it was done." (Rev.) A. W. Cornell. + +Harpersville, New York. + +520 + +You will notice that the testimony of Mary Hins- +dale has been drawing interest since 1809, and has +materially increased. If Paine "suffered fearfully +from remorse, renounced his Infidel opinions and +called on God to forgive him," it is hardly generous +for the Christian world to fasten the fangs of malice +in the flesh of his reputation. + +So Mary Roscoe was Mary Hinsdale, and as +Mary Hinsdale has been shown by her own admis- +sion to Mr. Cobbett to have known nothing of the +matter; and as Mary Hinsdale was not, according to +Willet Hicks, worthy of belief--as she told a false- +hood of the same kind about Mary Lockwood, and +was, according to Mr. Collins, addicted to the use of +opium--this disposes of her and her testimony. + +There remains upon the stand Grant Thorburn. +Concerning this witness, I received, yesterday, from +the eminent biographer and essayist, James Parton, +the following epistle: + +Newburyport, Mass. + +Col. R. G. Ingersoll: + +Touching Grant Thorburn, I personally know him +to have been a dishonest man. At the age of ninety- +two he copied, with trembling hand, a piece from a +newspaper and brought it to the office of the _Home +Journal, as his own_. It was I who received it and + +521 + +detected the deliberate forgery. If you are ever go- +ing to continue this subject, I will give you the exact +facts. + +Fervently yours, + +James Parton. + +After this, you are welcome to what remains of +Grant Thorburn. + +There is one thing that I have noticed during this +controversy regarding Thomas Paine. In no instance +that I now call to mind has any Christian writer +spoken respectfully of Mr. Paine. All have taken +particular pains to call him "Tom" Paine. Is it not +a little strange that religion should make men so +coarse and ill-mannered? + +I have often wondered what these same gentle- +men would say if I should speak of the men eminent +in the annals of Christianity in the same way. What +would they say if I should write about "Tim" +Dwight, old "Ad" Clark, "Tom" Scott, "Jim" +McKnight, "Bill" Hamilton, "Dick" Whately, "Bill" +Paley, and "Jack" Calvin? + +They would _say_ of me then, just what I _think_ of +them now. + +Even if we have religion, do not let us try to get +along without good manners. Rudeness is exceed- +ingly unbecoming, even in a saint. Persons who + +522 + +forgive their enemies ought, to say the least, to +treat with politeness those who have never injured +them. + +It is exceedingly gratifying to me that I have com- +pelled you to say that "Paine died a blaspheming +Infidel." Hereafter it is to be hoped nothing will be +heard about his having recanted. As an answer to +such slander his friends can confidently quote the +following from the _New York Observer_ of November +ist, 1877: + +"WE HAVE NEVER STATED IN ANY FORM, NOR +HAVE WE EVER SUPPOSED THAT PAINE ACTUALLY RE- +NOUNCED HIS INFIDELITY. THE ACCOUNTS AGREE IN +STATING THAT HE DIED A BLASPHEMING INFIDEL." + +This for all coming time will refute the slanders of +the churches yet to be. + +Right here allow me to ask: If you never supposed +that Paine renounced his Infidelity, why did you try +to prove by Mary Hinsdale that which you believed +to be untrue? + +From the bottom of my heart I thank myself for +having compelled you to admit that Thomas Paine +did not recant. + +For the purpose of verifying your own admission +concerning the death of Mr. Paine, permit me to call +your attention to the following affidavit: + +523 + +Wabash, Indiana, October 27, 1877. + +Col. R. G. Ingersoll: + +Dear Sir: The following statement of facts is at +your disposal. In the year 1833 Willet Hicks made +a visit to Indiana and stayed over night at my father's +house, four miles east of Richmond. In the morn- +ing at breakfast my mother asked Willet Hicks the +following questions: + +"Was thee with Thomas Paine during his last +sickness?" + +Mr. Hicks said: "I was with him every day dur- +ing the latter part of his last sickness." + +"Did he express any regret in regard to writing +the 'Age of Reason,' as the published accounts say +he did--those accounts that have the credit of ema- +nating from his Catholic housekeeper?" + +Mr. Hicks replied: "He did not in any way by +word or action." + +"Did he call on God or Jesus Christ, asking either +of them to forgive his sins, or did he curse them or +either of them?" + +Mr. Hicks answered: "He did not. He died as +easy as any one I ever saw die, and I have seen +many die in my time." William B Barnes. + +Subscribed and sworn to before me Oct. 27, 1877. + +Warren Bigler, Notary Public. + +524 + +You say in your last that "Thomas Paine was +abandoned of God." So far as this controversy is +concerned, it seems to me that in that sentence you +have most graphically described your own condi- +tion. + +Wishing you success in all honest undertakings, I +remain, + +Yours truly, + +Robert G. Ingersoll. + + + + + + + + +End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of The Works of Robert G. Ingersoll, Vol. +5 (of 12), by Robert G. Ingersoll + +*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WORKS OF INGERSOLL *** + +***** This file should be named 38805-8.txt or 38805-8.zip ***** +This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: + http://www.gutenberg.org/3/8/8/0/38805/ + +Produced by David Widger + +Updated editions will replace the previous one--the old editions +will be renamed. + +Creating the works from public domain print editions means that no +one owns a United States copyright in these works, so the Foundation +(and you!) can copy and distribute it in the United States without +permission and without paying copyright royalties. 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