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diff --git a/old/3linc10.txt b/old/3linc10.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..b4520a2 --- /dev/null +++ b/old/3linc10.txt @@ -0,0 +1,4899 @@ +Project Gutenberg Etext of The Writings of Abraham Lincoln, Vol 3 + +Volume 3 of 7 + +Copyright laws are changing all over the world, be sure to check +the copyright laws for your country before posting these files!! + +Please take a look at the important information in this header. +We encourage you to keep this file on your own disk, keeping an +electronic path open for the next readers. Do not remove this. + +*It must legally be the first thing seen when opening the book.* +In fact, our legal advisors said we can't even change margins. + +**Welcome To The World of Free Plain Vanilla Electronic Texts** + +**Etexts Readable By Both Humans and By Computers, Since 1971** + +*These Etexts Prepared By Hundreds of Volunteers and Donations* + +Information on contacting Project Gutenberg to get Etexts, and +further information is included below. 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FOR PUBLIC DOMAIN ETEXTS*Ver.04.29.93*END* + + + + + +Etext prepared for Gutenberg by David Widger, widger@cecomet.net + + + + + +THE WRITINGS OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN--VOLUME THREE + +THE LINCOLN-DOUGLAS DEBATES I + + + +POLITICAL SPEECHES & DEBATES of LINCOLN WITH DOUGLAS + +In the Senatorial Campaign of 1858 in Illinois + + + + +SPEECH AT SPRINGFIELD, JUNE 17, 1858 + +[The following speech was delivered at Springfield, Ill., at the +close of the Republican State Convention held at that time and +place, and by which Convention Mr. LINCOLN had been named as +their candidate for United States Senator. Mr. DOUGLAS was not +present.] + + +Mr. PRESIDENT AND GENTLEMEN OF THE CONVENTION:--If we could first +know where we are, and whither we are tending, we could better +judge what to do, and how to do it. We are now far into the +fifth year since a policy was initiated with the avowed object +and confident promise of putting an end to slavery agitation. +Under the operation of that policy, that agitation has not only +not ceased, but has constantly augmented. In my opinion, it will +not cease until a crisis shall have been reached and passed. "A +house divided against itself cannot stand." I believe this +government cannot endure permanently half slave and half free. +I do not expect the Union to be dissolved; I do not expect the +house to fall; but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It +will become all one thing, or all the other. Either the +opponents of slavery will arrest the further spread of it, and +place it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it +is in the course of ultimate extinction, or its advocates will +push it forward till it shall become alike lawful in all the +States, old as well as new, North as well as South. + +Have we no tendency to the latter condition? + +Let any one who doubts, carefully contemplate that now almost +complete legal combination-piece of machinery, so to speak +compounded of the Nebraska doctrine and the Dred Scott decision. +Let him consider, not only what work the machinery is adapted to +do, and how well adapted, but also let him study the history of +its construction, and trace, if he can, or rather fail, if he +can, to trace the evidences of design, and concert of action, +among its chief architects, from the beginning. + +The new year of 1854 found slavery excluded from more than half +the States by State Constitutions, and from most of the National +territory by Congressional prohibition. Four days later, +commenced the struggle which ended in repealing that +Congressional prohibition. This opened all the National +territory to slavery, and was the first point gained. + +But, so far, Congress only had acted, and an indorsement by the +people, real or apparent, was indispensable to save the point +already gained, and give chance for more. + +This necessity had not been overlooked, but had been provided +for, as well as might be, in the notable argument of "squatter +sovereignty," otherwise called "sacred right of self-government," +which latter phrase, though expressive of the only rightful basis +of any government, was so perverted in this attempted use of it +as to amount to just this: That if any one man choose to enslave +another, no third man shall be allowed to object. That argument +was incorporated into the Nebraska Bill itself, in the language +which follows: + +"It being the true intent and meaning of this Act not to +legislate slavery into any Territory or State, nor to exclude it +therefrom, but to leave the people thereof perfectly free to form +and regulate their domestic institutions in their own way, +subject only to the Constitution of the United States." + +Then opened the roar of loose declamation in favor of "squatter +sovereignty," and "sacred right of self-government." "But," said +opposition members, "let us amend the bill so as to expressly +declare that the people of the Territory may exclude slavery." +"Not we," said the friends of the measure, and down they voted +the amendment. + +While the Nebraska Bill was passing through Congress, a law case, +involving the question of a negro's freedom, by reason of his +owner having voluntarily taken him first into a free State, and +then into a territory covered by the Congressional Prohibition, +and held him as a slave for a long time in each, was passing +through the United States Circuit Court for the District of +Missouri; and both Nebraska Bill and lawsuit were brought to a +decision in the same month of May, 1854. The negro's name was +"Dred Scott," which name now designates the decision finally made +in the case. Before the then next Presidential election, the law +case came to, and was argued in, the Supreme Court of the United +States; but the decision of it was deferred until after the +election. Still, before the election, Senator Trumbull, on the +floor of the Senate, requested the leading advocate of the +Nebraska Bill to state his opinion whether the people of a +territory can constitutionally exclude slavery from their limits; +and the latter answers: "That is a question for the Supreme +Court." + +The election came. Mr. Buchanan was elected, and the +indorsement, such as it was, secured. That was the second point +gained. The indorsement, however, fell short of a clear popular +majority by nearly four hundred thousand votes,(approximately 10% +of the vote) and so, perhaps, was not overwhelmingly reliable and +satisfactory. The outgoing President, in his last annual +message, as impressively as possible echoed back upon the people +the weight and authority of the indorsement. The Supreme Court +met again, did not announce their decision, but ordered a +reargument. The Presidential inauguration came, and still no +decision of the court; but the incoming President, in his +inaugural address, fervently exhorted the people to abide by the +forth-coming decision, whatever it might be. Then, in a few +days, came the decision. + +The reputed author of the Nebraska Bill finds an early occasion +to make a speech at this capital indorsing the Dred Scott +decision, and vehemently denouncing all opposition to it. The +new President, too, seizes the early occasion of the Silliman +letter to indorse and strongly construe that decision, and to +express his astonishment that any different view had ever been +entertained! + +At length a squabble springs up between the President and the +author of the Nebraska Bill, on the mere question of fact, +whether the Lecompton Constitution was or was not in any just +sense made by the people of Kansas; and in that quarrel the +latter declares that all he wants is a fair vote for the people, +and that he cares not whether slavery be voted down or voted up. +I do not understand his declaration, that he cares not whether +slavery be voted down or voted up, to be intended by him other +than as an apt definition of the policy he would impress upon the +public mind,--the principle for which he declares he has suffered +so much, and is ready to suffer to the end. And well may he +cling to that principle! If he has any parental feeling, well +may he cling to it. That principle is the only shred left of his +original Nebraska doctrine. Under the Dred Scott decision +"squatter sovereignty" squatted out of existence, tumbled down +like temporary scaffolding; like the mould at the foundry, served +through one blast, and fell back into loose sand; helped to carry +an election, and then was kicked to the winds. His late joint +struggle with the Republicans, against the Lecompton +Constitution, involves nothing of the original Nebraska doctrine. +That struggle was made on a point--the right of a people to make +their own constitution--upon which he and the Republicans have +never differed. + +The several points of the Dred Scott decision, in connection with +Senator Douglas's "care not" policy, constitute the piece of +machinery, in its present state of advancement. This was the +third point gained. The working points of that machinery are: + +Firstly, That no negro slave, imported as such from Africa, and +no descendant of such slave, can ever be a citizen of any State, +in the sense of that term as used in the Constitution of the +United States. This point is made in order to deprive the negro, +in every possible event, of the benefit of that provision of the +United States Constitution which declares that "The citizens of +each State shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of +citizens in the several States." + +Secondly, That, "subject to the Constitution of the United +States," neither Congress nor a Territorial Legislature can +exclude slavery from any United States Territory. This point is +made in order that individual men may fill up the Territories +with slaves, without danger of losing them as property, and thus +to enhance the chances of permanency to the institution through +all the future. + +Thirdly, That whether the holding a negro in actual slavery in a +free State makes him free, as against the holder, the United +States courts will not decide, but will leave to be decided by +the courts of any slave State the negro may be forced into by the +master. This point is made, not to be pressed immediately; but, +if acquiesced in for a while, and apparently indorsed by the +people at an election, then to sustain the logical conclusion +that what Dred Scott's master might lawfully do with Dred Scott, +in the free State of Illinois, every other master may lawfully do +with any other one, or one thousand slaves, in Illinois, or in +any other free State. + +Auxiliary to all this, and working hand in hand with it, the +Nebraska doctrine, or what is left of it, is to educate and mould +public opinion, at least Northern public opinion, not to care +whether slavery is voted down or voted up. This shows exactly +where we now are; and partially, also, wither we are tending. + +It will throw additional light on the latter, to go back and run +the mind over the string of historical facts already stated. +Several things will now appear less dark and mysterious than they +did when they were transpiring. The people were to be left +"perfectly free," " subject only to the Constitution." What the +Constitution had to do with it, outsiders could not then see. +Plainly enough now,--it was an exactly fitted niche, for the Dred +Scott decision to afterward come in, and declare the perfect +freedom of the people to be just no freedom at all. Why was the +amendment, expressly declaring the right of the people, voted +down? Plainly enough now,--the adoption of it would have spoiled +the niche for the Dred Scott decision. Why was the court +decision held up? Why even a Senator's individual opinion +withheld, till after the Presidential election? Plainly enough +now,--the speaking out then would have damaged the "perfectly +free" argument upon which the election was to be carried. Why +the outgoing President's felicitation on the indorsement? Why the +delay of a reargument? Why the incoming President's advance +exhortation in favor of the decision? These things look like the +cautious patting and petting of a spirited horse preparatory to +mounting him, when it is dreaded that he may give the rider a +fall. And why the hasty after-indorsement of the decision by the +President and others? + +We cannot absolutely know that all these exact adaptations are +the result of preconcert. But when we see a lot of framed +timbers, different portions of which we know have been gotten out +at different times and places and by different workmen, Stephen, +Franklin, Roger, and James, for instance, and when we see these +timbers joined together, and see they exactly make the frame of a +house or a mill, all the tenons and mortises exactly fitting, and +all the lengths and proportions of the different pieces exactly +adapted to their respective places, and not a piece too many or +too few,--not omitting even scaffolding,--or, if a single piece +be lacking, we see the place in the frame exactly fitted and +prepared yet to bring such piece in,--in such a case, we find it +impossible not to believe that Stephen and Franklin and Roger and +James all understood one another from the beginning, and all +worked upon a common plan or draft drawn up before the first blow +was struck. + +It should not be overlooked that by the Nebraska Bill the people +of a State as well as Territory were to be left "perfectly free," +"subject only to the Constitution." Why mention a State? They +were legislating for Territories, and not for or about States. +Certainly the people of a State are and ought to be subject to +the Constitution of the United States; but why is mention of this +lugged into this merely Territorial law? Why are the people of a +Territory and the people of a State therein lumped together, and +their relation to the Constitution therefore treated as being +precisely the same? While the opinion of the court, by Chief +Justice Taney, in the Dred Scott case, and the separate opinions +of all the concurring Judges, expressly declare that the +Constitution of the United States neither permits Congress nor a +Territorial Legislature to exclude slavery from any United States +Territory, they all omit to declare whether or not the same +Constitution permits a State, or the people of a State, to +exclude it. Possibly, this is a mere omission; but who can be +quite sure, if McLean or Curtis had sought to get into the +opinion a declaration of unlimited power in the people of a State +to exclude slavery from their limits, just as Chase and Mace +sought to get such declaration, in behalf of the people of a +Territory, into the Nebraska Bill,--I ask, who can be quite sure +that it would not have been voted down in the one case as it had +been in the other? The nearest approach to the point of declaring +the power of a State over slavery is made by Judge Nelson. He +approaches it more than once, Using the precise idea, and almost +the language, too, of the Nebraska Act. On one occasion, his +exact language is, "Except in cases where the power is restrained +by the Constitution of the United States, the law of the State is +supreme over the subject of slavery within its jurisdiction." In +what cases the power of the States is so restrained by the United +States Constitution, is left an open question, precisely as the +same question, as to the restraint on the power of the +Territories, was left open in the Nebraska Act. Put this and +that together, and we have another nice little niche, which we +may, ere long, see filled with another Supreme Court decision, +declaring that the Constitution of the United States does not +permit a State to exclude slavery from its limits. And this may +especially be expected if the doctrine of "care not whether +slavery be voted down or voted up" shall gain upon the public +mind sufficiently to give promise that such a decision can be +maintained when made. + +Such a decision is all that slavery now lacks of being alike +lawful in all the States. Welcome or unwelcome, such decision is +probably coming, and will soon be upon us, unless the power of +the present political dynasty shall be met and overthrown We +shall lie down pleasantly dreaming that the people of Missouri +are on the verge of making their State free, and we shall awake +to the reality instead that the Supreme Court has made Illinois a +slave State. To meet and overthrow the power of that dynasty is +the work now before all those who would prevent that +consummation. That is what we have to do. How can we best do +it? + +There are those who denounce us openly to their friends, and yet +whisper to us softly that Senator Douglas is the aptest +instrument there is with which to effect that object. They wish +us to infer all, from the fact that he now has a little quarrel +with the present head of the dynasty, and that he has regularly +voted with us on a single point, upon which he and we have never +differed. They remind us that he is a great man, and that the +largest of us are very small ones. Let this be granted. But "a +living dog is better than a dead lion." Judge Douglas, if not a +dead lion, for this work is at least a caged and toothless one. +How can he oppose the advances of slavery? He don't care +anything about it. His avowed mission is impressing the "public +heart" to care nothing about it. A leading Douglas Democratic +newspaper thinks Douglas's superior talent will be needed to +resist the revival of the African slave trade. Does Douglas +believe an effort to revive that trade is approaching? He has +not said so. Does he really think so? But if it is, how can he +resist it? For years he has labored to prove it a sacred right +of white men to take negro slaves into the new Territories. Can +he possibly show that it is less a sacred right to buy them where +they can be bought cheapest? And unquestionably they can be +bought cheaper in Africa than in Virginia. He has done all in +his power to reduce the whole question of slavery to one of a +mere right of property; and, as such, how can he oppose the +foreign slave trade, how can he refuse that trade in that +"property" shall be "perfectly free,"--unless he does it as a +protection to the home production? And as the home producers +will probably not ask the protection, he will be wholly without a +ground of opposition. + +Senator Douglas holds, we know, that a man may rightfully be +wiser to-day than he was yesterday; that he may rightfully change +when he finds himself wrong. But can we, for that reason, run +ahead, and infer that he will make any particular change, of +which he himself has given no intimation? Can we safely base our +action upon any such vague inference? Now, as ever, I wish not +to misrepresent Judge Douglas's position, question his motives, +or do aught that can be personally offensive to him. Whenever, +if ever, he and we can come together on principle so that our +cause may have assistance from his great ability, I hope to have +interposed no adventitious obstacles. But clearly he is not now +with us; he does not pretend to be,--he does not promise ever to +be. + +Our cause, then, must be intrusted to, and conducted by, its own +undoubted friends,--those whose hands are free, whose hearts are +in the work, who do care for the result. Two years ago the +Republicans of the nation mustered over thirteen hundred thousand +strong. We did this under the single impulse of resistance to a +common danger, with every external circumstance against us. Of +strange, discordant, and even hostile elements we gathered from +the four winds, and formed and fought the battle through, under +the constant hot fire of a disciplined, proud, and pampered +enemy. Did we brave all then to falter now,--now, when that same +enemy is wavering, dissevered, and belligerent? The result is +not doubtful. We shall not fail; if we stand firm, we shall not +fail. Wise counsels may accelerate, or mistakes delay it, but, +sooner or later, the victory is sure to come. + + + + +SPEECH AT CHICAGO, JULY 10, 1858. + +IN REPLY TO SENATOR DOUGLAS + +DELIVERED AT CHICAGO, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 10, 1858. + +(Mr. DOUGLAS WAS NOT PRESENT.) + +[Mr. LINCOLN was introduced by C. L. Wilson, Esq., and as he made +his appearance he was greeted with a perfect storm of applause. +For some moments the enthusiasm continued unabated. At last, +when by a wave of his hand partial silence was restored, Mr. +LINCOLN said,] + +MY FELLOW-CITIZENS:--On yesterday evening, upon the occasion of +the reception given to Senator Douglas, I was furnished with a +seat very convenient for hearing him, and was otherwise very +courteously treated by him and his friends, and for which I thank +him and them. During the course of his remarks my name was +mentioned in such a way as, I suppose, renders it at least not +improper that I should make some sort of reply to him. I shall +not attempt to follow him in the precise order in which he +addressed the assembled multitude upon that occasion, though I +shall perhaps do so in the main. + +There was one question to which he asked the attention of the +crowd, which I deem of somewhat less importance--at least of +propriety--for me to dwell upon than the others, which he brought +in near the close of his speech, and which I think it would not +be entirely proper for me to omit attending to, and yet if I were +not to give some attention to it now, I should probably forget it +altogether. While I am upon this subject, allow me to say that I +do not intend to indulge in that inconvenient mode sometimes +adopted in public speaking, of reading from documents; but I +shall depart from that rule so far as to read a little scrap from +his speech, which notices this first topic of which I shall +speak,--that is, provided I can find it in the paper: + +"I have made up my mind to appeal to the people against the +combination that has been made against me; the Republican leaders +having formed an alliance, an unholy and unnatural alliance, with +a portion of unscrupulous Federal office-holders. I intend to +fight that allied army wherever I meet them. I know they deny +the alliance; but yet these men who are trying to divide the +Democratic party for the purpose of electing a Republican Senator +in my place are just as much the agents and tools of the +supporters of Mr. Lincoln. Hence I shall deal with this allied +army just as the Russians dealt with the Allies at Sebastopol,-- +that is, the Russians did not stop to inquire, when they fired a +broadside, whether it hit an Englishman, a Frenchman, or a Turk. +Nor will I stop to inquire, nor shall I hesitate, whether my +blows shall hit the Republican leaders or their allies, who are +holding the Federal offices, and yet acting in concert with +them." + +Well, now, gentlemen, is not that very alarming? Just to think +of it! right at the outset of his canvass, I, a poor, kind, +amiable, intelligent gentleman,--I am to be slain in this way! +Why, my friend the Judge is not only, as it turns out, not a dead +lion, nor even a living one,--he is the rugged Russian Bear! + +But if they will have it--for he says that we deny it--that there +is any such alliance, as he says there is,--and I don't propose +hanging very much upon this question of veracity,--but if he will +have it that there is such an alliance, that the Administration +men and we are allied, and we stand in the attitude of English, +French, and Turk, he occupying the position of the Russian, in +that case I beg that he will indulge us while we barely suggest +to him that these allies took Sebastopol. + +Gentlemen, only a few more words as to this alliance. For my +part, I have to say that whether there be such an alliance +depends, so far as I know, upon what may be a right definition of +the term alliance. If for the Republican party to see the other +great party to which they are opposed divided among themselves, +and not try to stop the division, and rather be glad of it,--if +that is an alliance, I confess I am in; but if it is meant to be +said that the Republicans had formed an alliance going beyond +that, by which there is contribution of money or sacrifice of +principle on the one side or the other, so far as the Republican +party is concerned,--if there be any such thing, I protest that I +neither know anything of it, nor do I believe it. I will, +however, say,--as I think this branch of the argument is lugged +in,--I would before I leave it state, for the benefit of those +concerned, that one of those same Buchanan men did once tell me +of an argument that he made for his opposition to Judge Douglas. +He said that a friend of our Senator Douglas had been talking to +him, and had, among other things, said to him: + +"...why, you don't want to beat Douglas?" "Yes," said he, "I do +want to beat him, and I will tell you why. I believe his +original Nebraska Bill was right in the abstract, but it was +wrong in the time that it was brought forward. It was wrong in +the application to a Territory in regard to which the question +had been settled; it was brought forward at a time when nobody +asked him; it was tendered to the South when the South had not +asked for it, but when they could not well refuse it; and for +this same reason he forced that question upon our party. It has +sunk the best men all over the nation, everywhere; and now, when +our President, struggling with the difficulties of this man's +getting up, has reached the very hardest point to turn in the +case, he deserts him and I am for putting him where he will +trouble us no more." + +Now, gentlemen, that is not my argument; that is not my argument +at all. I have only been stating to you the argument of a +Buchanan man. You will judge if there is any force in it. + +Popular sovereignty! Everlasting popular sovereignty! Let us +for a moment inquire into this vast matter of popular +sovereignty. What is popular sovereignty? We recollect that at +an early period in the history of this struggle there was another +name for the same thing,--"squatter sovereignty." It was not +exactly popular sovereignty, but squatter sovereignty. What do +those terms mean? What do those terms mean when used now? And +vast credit is taken by our friend the Judge in regard to his +support of it, when he declares the last years of his life have +been, and all the future years of his life shall be, devoted to +this matter of popular sovereignty. What is it? Why, it is the +sovereignty of the people! What was squatter sovereignty? I +suppose, if it had any significance at all, it was the right of +the people to govern themselves, to be sovereign in their own +affairs while they were squatted down in a country not their own, +while they had squatted on a Territory that did not belong to +them, in the sense that a State belongs to the people who inhabit +it, when it belonged to the nation; such right to govern +themselves was called "squatter sovereignty." + +Now, I wish you to mark: What has become of that squatter +sovereignty? what has become of it? Can you get anybody to tell +you now that the people of a Territory have any authority to +govern themselves, in regard to this mooted question of slavery, +before they form a State constitution? No such thing at all; +although there is a general running fire, and although there has +been a hurrah made in every speech on that side, assuming that +policy had given the people of a Territory the right to govern +themselves upon this question, yet the point is dodged. To-day +it has been decided--no more than a year ago it was decided--by +the Supreme Court of the United States, and is insisted upon +to-day that the people of a Territory have no right to exclude +slavery from a Territory; that if any one man chooses to take +slaves into a Territory, all the rest of the people have no right +to keep them out. This being so, and this decision being made +one of the points that the Judge approved, and one in the +approval of which he says he means to keep me down,--put me down +I should not say, for I have never been up,--he says he is in +favor of it, and sticks to it, and expects to win his battle on +that decision, which says that there is no such thing as squatter +sovereignty, but that any one man may take slaves into a +Territory, and all the other men in the Territory may be opposed +to it, and yet by reason of the Constitution they cannot prohibit +it. When that is so, how much is left of this vast matter of +squatter sovereignty, I should like to know? + +When we get back, we get to the point of the right of the people +to make a constitution. Kansas was settled, for example, in +1854. It was a Territory yet, without having formed a +constitution, in a very regular way, for three years. All this +time negro slavery could be taken in by any few individuals, and +by that decision of the Supreme Court, which the Judge approves, +all the rest of the people cannot keep it out; but when they come +to make a constitution, they may say they will not have slavery. +But it is there; they are obliged to tolerate it some way, and +all experience shows it will be so, for they will not take the +negro slaves and absolutely deprive the owners of them. All +experience shows this to be so. All that space of time that runs +from the beginning of the settlement of the Territory until there +is sufficiency of people to make a State constitution,--all that +portion of time popular sovereignty is given up. The seal is +absolutely put down upon it by the court decision, and Judge +Douglas puts his own upon the top of that; yet he is appealing to +the people to give him vast credit for his devotion to popular +sovereignty. + +Again, when we get to the question of the right of the people to +form a State constitution as they please, to form it with slavery +or without slavery, if that is anything new, I confess I don't +know it. Has there ever been a time when anybody said that any +other than the people of a Territory itself should form a +constitution? What is now in it that Judge Douglas should have +fought several years of his life, and pledge himself to fight all +the remaining years of his life for? Can Judge Douglas find +anybody on earth that said that anybody else should form a +constitution for a people? [A voice, "Yes."] Well, I should like +you to name him; I should like to know who he was. [Same voice, +"John Calhoun."] + +No, sir, I never heard of even John Calhoun saying such a thing. +He insisted on the same principle as Judge Douglas; but his mode +of applying it, in fact, was wrong. It is enough for my purpose +to ask this crowd whenever a Republican said anything against it. +They never said anything against it, but they have constantly +spoken for it; and whoever will undertake to examine the +platform, and the speeches of responsible men of the party, and +of irresponsible men, too, if you please, will be unable to find +one word from anybody in the Republican ranks opposed to that +popular sovereignty which Judge Douglas thinks that he has +invented. I suppose that Judge Douglas will claim, in a little +while, that he is the inventor of the idea that the people should +govern themselves; that nobody ever thought of such a thing until +he brought it forward. We do not remember that in that old +Declaration of Independence it is said that: + +"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are +created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with +certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, +and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, +governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers +from the consent of the governed." + +There is the origin of popular sovereignty. Who, then, shall +come in at this day and claim that he invented it? + +The Lecompton Constitution connects itself with this question, +for it is in this matter of the Lecompton Constitution that our +friend Judge Douglas claims such vast credit. I agree that in +opposing the Lecompton Constitution, so far as I can perceive, he +was right. I do not deny that at all; and, gentlemen, you will +readily see why I could not deny it, even if I wanted to. But I +do not wish to; for all the Republicans in the nation opposed it, +and they would have opposed it just as much without Judge +Douglas's aid as with it. They had all taken ground against it +long before he did. Why, the reason that he urges against that +constitution I urged against him a year before. I have the +printed speech in my hand. The argument that he makes, why that +constitution should not be adopted, that the people were not +fairly represented nor allowed to vote, I pointed out in a speech +a year ago, which I hold in my hand now, that no fair chance was +to be given to the people. ["Read it, Read it."] I shall not +waste your time by trying to read it. ["Read it, Read it."] +Gentlemen, reading from speeches is a very tedious business, +particularly for an old man that has to put on spectacles, and +more so if the man be so tall that he has to bend over to the +light. + +A little more, now, as to this matter of popular sovereignty and +the Lecompton Constitution. The Lecompton Constitution, as the +Judge tells us, was defeated. The defeat of it was a good thing +or it was not. He thinks the defeat of it was a good thing, and +so do I, and we agree in that. Who defeated it? + +[A voice: Judge Douglas.] + +Yes, he furnished himself, and if you suppose he controlled the +other Democrats that went with him, he furnished three votes; +while the Republicans furnished twenty. + +That is what he did to defeat it. In the House of +Representatives he and his friends furnished some twenty votes, +and the Republicans furnished ninety odd. Now, who was it that +did the work? + +[A voice: Douglas.] + +Why, yes, Douglas did it! To be sure he did. + +Let us, however, put that proposition another way. The +Republicans could not have done it without Judge Douglas. Could +he have done it without them? Which could have come the nearest +to doing it without the other? + +[A voice: Who killed the bill?] + +[Another voice: Douglas.] + +Ground was taken against it by the Republicans long before +Douglas did it. The proportion of opposition to that measure is +about five to one. + +[A voice: Why don't they come out on it?] + +You don't know what you are talking about, my friend. I am quite +willing to answer any gentleman in the crowd who asks an +intelligent question. + +Now, who in all this country has ever found any of our friends of +Judge Douglas's way of thinking, and who have acted upon this +main question, that has ever thought of uttering a word in behalf +of Judge Trumbull? + +[A voice: We have.] + +I defy you to show a printed resolution passed in a Democratic +meeting--I take it upon myself to defy any man to show a printed +resolution of a Democratic meeting, large or small--in favor of +Judge Trumbull, or any of the five to one Republicans who beat +that bill. Everything must be for the Democrats! They did +everything, and the five to the one that really did the thing +they snub over, and they do not seem to remember that they have +an existence upon the face of the earth. + +Gentlemen, I fear that I shall become tedious. I leave this +branch of the subject to take hold of another. I take up that +part of Judge Douglas's speech in which he respectfully attended +to me. + +Judge Douglas made two points upon my recent speech at +Springfield. He says they are to be the issues of this campaign. +The first one of these points he bases upon the language in a +speech which I delivered at Springfield, which I believe I can +quote correctly from memory. I said there that "we are now far +into the fifth year since a policy was instituted for the avowed +object, and with the confident promise, of putting an end to +slavery agitation; under the operation of that policy, that +agitation has not only not ceased, but has constantly augmented." +"I believe it will not cease until a crisis shall have been +reached and passed. 'A house divided against itself cannot +stand.' I believe this government cannot endure permanently half +slave and half free." "I do not expect the Union to be +dissolved,"--I am quoting from my speech, "--I do not expect the +house to fall, but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It +will become all one thing or all the other. Either the opponents +of slavery will arrest the spread of it and place it where the +public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of +ultimate extinction, or its advocates will push it forward until +it shall become alike lawful in all the States, north as well as +south." + +What is the paragraph? In this paragraph, which I have quoted in +your hearing, and to which I ask the attention of all, Judge +Douglas thinks he discovers great political heresy. I want your +attention particularly to what he has inferred from it. He says +I am in favor of making all the States of this Union uniform in +all their internal regulations; that in all their domestic +concerns I am in favor of making them entirely uniform. He draws +this inference from the language I have quoted to you. He says +that I am in favor of making war by the North upon the South for +the extinction of slavery; that I am also in favor of inviting +(as he expresses it) the South to a war upon the North for the +purpose of nationalizing slavery. Now, it is singular enough, if +you will carefully read that passage over, that I did not say +that I was in favor of anything in it. I only said what I +expected would take place. I made a prediction only,--it may +have been a foolish one, perhaps. I did not even say that I +desired that slavery should be put in course of ultimate +extinction. I do say so now, however, so there need be no longer +any difficulty about that. It may be written down in the great +speech. + +Gentlemen, Judge Douglas informed you that this speech of mine +was probably carefully prepared. I admit that it was. I am not +master of language; I have not a fine education; I am not capable +of entering into a disquisition upon dialectics, as I believe you +call it; but I do not believe the language I employed bears any +such construction as Judge Douglas puts upon it. But I don't +care about a quibble in regard to words. I know what I meant, +and I will not leave this crowd in doubt, if I can explain it to +them, what I really meant in the use of that paragraph. + +I am not, in the first place, unaware that this government has +endured eighty-two years half slave and half free. I know that. +I am tolerably well acquainted with the history of the country, +and I know that it has endured eighty-two years half slave and +half free. I believe--and that is what I meant to allude to +there--I believe it has endured because during all that time, +until the introduction of the Nebraska Bill, the public mind did +rest all the time in the belief that slavery was in course of +ultimate extinction. That was what gave us the rest that we had +through that period of eighty-two years,--at least, so I believe. +I have always hated slavery, I think, as much as any +Abolitionist,--I have been an Old Line Whig,--I have always hated +it; but I have always been quiet about it until this new era of +the introduction of the Nebraska Bill began. I always believed +that everybody was against it, and that it was in course of +ultimate extinction. [Pointing to Mr. Browning, who stood near +by.] Browning thought so; the great mass of the nation have +rested in the belief that slavery was in course of ultimate +extinction. They had reason so to believe. + +The adoption of the Constitution and its attendant history led +the people to believe so; and that such was the belief of the +framers of the Constitution itself, why did those old men, about +the time of the adoption of the Constitution, decree that slavery +should not go into the new Territory, where it had not already +gone? Why declare that within twenty years the African slave +trade, by which slaves are supplied, might be cut off by +Congress? Why were all these acts? I might enumerate more of +these acts; but enough. What were they but a clear indication +that the framers of the Constitution intended and expected the +ultimate extinction of that institution? And now, when I say, as +I said in my speech that Judge Douglas has quoted from, when I +say that I think the opponents of slavery will resist the farther +spread of it, and place it where the public mind shall rest with +the belief that it is in course of ultimate extinction, I only +mean to say that they will place it where the founders of this +government originally placed it. + +I have said a hundred times, and I have now no inclination to +take it back, that I believe there is no right, and ought to be +no inclination, in the people of the free States to enter into +the slave States and interfere with the question of slavery at +all. I have said that always; Judge Douglas has heard me say it, +if not quite a hundred times, at least as good as a hundred +times; and when it is said that I am in favor of interfering with +slavery where it exists, I know it is unwarranted by anything I +have ever intended, and, as I believe, by anything I have ever +said. If, by any means, I have ever used language which could +fairly be so construed (as, however, I believe I never have), I +now correct it. + +So much, then, for the inference that Judge Douglas draws, that I +am in favor of setting the sections at war with one another. I +know that I never meant any such thing, and I believe that no +fair mind can infer any such thing from anything I have ever +said. + +Now, in relation to his inference that I am in favor of a general +consolidation of all the local institutions of the various +States. I will attend to that for a little while, and try to +inquire, if I can, how on earth it could be that any man could +draw such an inference from anything I said. I have said, very +many times, in Judge Douglas's hearing, that no man believed more +than I in the principle of self-government; that it lies at the +bottom of all my ideas of just government, from beginning to end. +I have denied that his use of that term applies properly. But +for the thing itself, I deny that any man has ever gone ahead of +me in his devotion to the principle, whatever he may have done in +efficiency in advocating it. I think that I have said it in your +hearing, that I believe each individual is naturally entitled to +do as he pleases with himself and the fruit of his labor, so far +as it in no wise interferes with any other man's rights; that +each community as a State has a right to do exactly as it pleases +with all the concerns within that State that interfere with the +right of no other State; and that the General Government, upon +principle, has no right to interfere with anything other than +that general class of things that does concern the whole. I have +said that at all times. I have said, as illustrations, that I do +not believe in the right of Illinois to interfere with the +cranberry laws of Indiana, the oyster laws of Virginia, or the +liquor laws of Maine. I have said these things over and over +again, and I repeat them here as my sentiments. + +How is it, then, that Judge Douglas infers, because I hope to see +slavery put where the public mind shall rest in the belief that +it is in the course of ultimate extinction, that I am in favor of +Illinois going over and interfering with the cranberry laws of +Indiana? What can authorize him to draw any such inference? + +I suppose there might be one thing that at least enabled him to +draw such an inference that would not be true with me or many +others: that is, because he looks upon all this matter of slavery +as an exceedingly little thing,--this matter of keeping one sixth +of the population of the whole nation in a state of oppression +and tyranny unequaled in the world. He looks upon it as being an +exceedingly little thing,--only equal to the question of the +cranberry laws of Indiana; as something having no moral question +in it; as something on a par with the question of whether a man +shall pasture his land with cattle, or plant it with tobacco; so +little and so small a thing that he concludes, if I could desire +that anything should be done to bring about the ultimate +extinction of that little thing, I must be in favor of bringing +about an amalgamation of all the other little things in the +Union. Now, it so happens--and there, I presume, is the +foundation of this mistake--that the Judge thinks thus; and it so +happens that there is a vast portion of the American people that +do not look upon that matter as being this very little thing. +They look upon it as a vast moral evil; they can prove it as such +by the writings of those who gave us the blessings of liberty +which we enjoy, and that they so looked upon it, and not as an +evil merely confining itself to the States where it is situated; +and while we agree that, by the Constitution we assented to, in +the States where it exists, we have no right to interfere with +it, because it is in the Constitution; and we are by both duty +and inclination to stick by that Constitution, in all its letter +and spirit, from beginning to end, + +So much, then, as to my disposition--my wish to have all the +State legislatures blotted out, and to have one consolidated +government, and a uniformity of domestic regulations in all the +States, by which I suppose it is meant, if we raise corn here, we +must make sugar-cane grow here too, and we must make those which +grow North grow in the South. All this I suppose he understands +I am in favor of doing. Now, so much for all this nonsense; for +I must call it so. The Judge can have no issue with me on a +question of establishing uniformity in the domestic regulations +of the States. + +A little now on the other point,--the Dred Scott decision. +Another of the issues he says that is to be made with me is upon +his devotion to the Dred Scott decision, and my opposition to it. + +I have expressed heretofore, and I now repeat, my opposition to +the Dred Scott decision; but I should be allowed to state the +nature of that opposition, and I ask your indulgence while I do +so. What is fairly implied by the term Judge Douglas has used, +"resistance to the decision"? I do not resist it. If I wanted +to take Dred Scott from his master, I would be interfering with +property, and that terrible difficulty that Judge Douglas speaks +of, of interfering with property, would arise. But I am doing no +such thing as that, but all that I am doing is refusing to obey +it as a political rule. If I were in Congress, and a vote should +come up on a question whether slavery should be prohibited in a +new Territory, in spite of the Dred Scott decision, I would vote +that it should. + +That is what I should do. Judge Douglas said last night that +before the decision he might advance his opinion, and it might be +contrary to the decision when it was made; but after it was made +he would abide by it until it was reversed. Just so! We let +this property abide by the decision, but we will try to reverse +that decision. We will try to put it where Judge Douglas would +not object, for he says he will obey it until it is reversed. +Somebody has to reverse that decision, since it is made, and we +mean to reverse it, and we mean to do it peaceably. + +What are the uses of decisions of courts? They have two uses. +As rules of property they have two uses. First, they decide upon +the question before the court. They decide in this case that +Dred Scott is a slave. Nobody resists that, not only that, but +they say to everybody else that persons standing just as Dred +Scott stands are as he is. That is, they say that when a +question comes up upon another person, it will be so decided +again, unless the court decides in another way, unless the court +overrules its decision. Well, we mean to do what we can to have +the court decide the other way. That is one thing we mean to try +to do. + +The sacredness that Judge Douglas throws around this decision is +a degree of sacredness that has never been before thrown around +any other decision. I have never heard of such a thing. Why, +decisions apparently contrary to that decision, or that good +lawyers thought were contrary to that decision, have been made by +that very court before. It is the first of its kind; it is an +astonisher in legal history. It is a new wonder of the world. +It is based upon falsehood in the main as to the facts; +allegations of facts upon which it stands are not facts at all in +many instances, and no decision made on any question--the first +instance of a decision made under so many unfavorable +circumstances--thus placed, has ever been held by the profession +as law, and it has always needed confirmation before the lawyers +regarded it as settled law. But Judge Douglas will have it that +all hands must take this extraordinary decision, made under these +extraordinary circumstances, and give their vote in Congress in +accordance with it, yield to it, and obey it in every possible +sense. Circumstances alter cases. Do not gentlemen here +remember the case of that same Supreme Court some twenty-five or +thirty years ago deciding that a National Bank was +constitutional? I ask, if somebody does not remember that a +National Bank was declared to be constitutional? Such is the +truth, whether it be remembered or not. The Bank charter ran +out, and a recharter was granted by Congress. That recharter was +laid before General Jackson. It was urged upon him, when he +denied the constitutionality of the Bank, that the Supreme Court +had decided that it was constitutional; and General Jackson then +said that the Supreme Court had no right to lay down a rule to +govern a coordinate branch of the government, the members of +which had sworn to support the Constitution; that each member had +sworn to support that Constitution as he understood it. I will +venture here to say that I have heard Judge Douglas say that he +approved of General Jackson for that act. What has now become of +all his tirade about "resistance of the Supreme Court"? + +My fellow-citizens, getting back a little,--for I pass from these +points,--when Judge Douglas makes his threat of annihilation upon +the "alliance," he is cautious to say that that warfare of his is +to fall upon the leaders of the Republican party. Almost every +word he utters, and every distinction he makes, has its +significance. He means for the Republicans who do not count +themselves as leaders, to be his friends; he makes no fuss over +them; it is the leaders that he is making war upon. He wants it +understood that the mass of the Republican party are really his +friends. It is only the leaders that are doing something that +are intolerant, and that require extermination at his hands. As +this is dearly and unquestionably the light in which he presents +that matter, I want to ask your attention, addressing myself to +the Republicans here, that I may ask you some questions as to +where you, as the Republican party, would be placed if you +sustained Judge Douglas in his present position by a re-election? +I do not claim, gentlemen, to be unselfish; I do not pretend that +I would not like to go to the United States Senate,--I make no +such hypocritical pretense; but I do say to you that in this +mighty issue it is nothing to you--nothing to the mass of the +people of the nation,--whether or not Judge Douglas or myself +shall ever be heard of after this night; it may be a trifle to +either of us, but in connection with this mighty question, upon +which hang the destinies of the nation, perhaps, it is absolutely +nothing: but where will you be placed if you reindorse Judge +Douglas? Don't you know how apt he is, how exceedingly anxious +he is at all times, to seize upon anything and everything to +persuade you that something he has done you did yourselves? Why, +he tried to persuade you last night that our Illinois Legislature +instructed him to introduce the Nebraska Bill. There was nobody +in that Legislature ever thought of such a thing; and when he +first introduced the bill, he never thought of it; but still he +fights furiously for the proposition, and that he did it because +there was a standing instruction to our Senators to be always +introducing Nebraska bills. He tells you he is for the +Cincinnati platform, he tells you he is for the Dred Scott +decision. He tells you, not in his speech last night, but +substantially in a former speech, that he cares not if slavery is +voted up or down; he tells you the struggle on Lecompton is past; +it may come up again or not, and if it does, he stands where he +stood when, in spite of him and his opposition, you built up the +Republican party. If you indorse him, you tell him you do not +care whether slavery be voted up or down, and he will close or +try to close your mouths with his declaration, repeated by the +day, the week, the month, and the year. Is that what you mean? +[Cries of "No," one voice Yes."] Yes, I have no doubt you who +have always been for him, if you mean that. No doubt of that, +soberly I have said, and I repeat it. I think, in the position +in which Judge Douglas stood in opposing the Lecompton +Constitution, he was right; he does not know that it will return, +but if it does we may know where to find him, and if it does not, +we may know where to look for him, and that is on the Cincinnati +platform. Now, I could ask the Republican party, after all the +hard names that Judge Douglas has called them by all his repeated +charges of their inclination to marry with and hug negroes; all +his declarations of Black Republicanism,--by the way, we are +improving, the black has got rubbed off,--but with all that, if +he be indorsed by Republican votes, where do you stand? Plainly, +you stand ready saddled, bridled, and harnessed, and waiting to +be driven over to the slavery extension camp of the nation,--just +ready to be driven over, tied together in a lot, to be driven +over, every man with a rope around his neck, that halter being +held by Judge Douglas. That is the question. If Republican men +have been in earnest in what they have done, I think they had +better not do it; but I think that the Republican party is made +up of those who, as far as they can peaceably, will oppose the +extension of slavery, and who will hope for its ultimate +extinction. If they believe it is wrong in grasping up the new +lands of the continent and keeping them from the settlement of +free white laborers, who want the land to bring up their families +upon; if they are in earnest, although they may make a mistake, +they will grow restless, and the time will come when they will +come back again and reorganize, if not by the same name, at least +upon the same principles as their party now has. It is better, +then, to save the work while it is begun. You have done the +labor; maintain it, keep it. If men choose to serve you, go with +them; but as you have made up your organization upon principle, +stand by it; for, as surely as God reigns over you, and has +inspired your mind, and given you a sense of propriety, and +continues to give you hope, so surely will you still cling to +these ideas, and you will at last come back again after your +wanderings, merely to do your work over again. + +We were often,--more than once, at least,--in the course of Judge +Douglas's speech last night, reminded that this government was +made for white men; that he believed it was made for white men. +Well, that is putting it into a shape in which no one wants to +deny it; but the Judge then goes into his passion for drawing +inferences that are not warranted. I protest, now and forever, +against that counterfeit logic which presumes that because I did +not want a negro woman for a slave, I do necessarily want her for +a wife. My understanding is that I need not have her for either, +but, as God made us separate, we can leave one another alone, and +do one another much good thereby. There are white men enough to +marry all the white women, and enough black men to marry all the +black women; and in God's name let them be so married. The Judge +regales us with the terrible enormities that take place by the +mixture of races; that the inferior race bears the superior down. +Why, Judge, if we do not let them get together in the +Territories, they won't mix there. + +[A voice: "Three cheers for Lincoln". --The cheers were given +with a hearty good-will.] + +I should say at least that that is a self-evident truth. + +Now, it happens that we meet together once every year, sometimes +about the 4th of July, for some reason or other. These 4th of +July gatherings I suppose have their uses. If you will indulge +me, I will state what I suppose to be some of them. + +We are now a mighty nation; we are thirty or about thirty +millions of people, and we own and inhabit about one fifteenth +part of the dry land of the whole earth. We run our memory back +over the pages of history for about eighty-two years, and we +discover that we were then a very small people in point of +numbers, vastly inferior to what we are now, with a vastly less +extent of country, with vastly less of everything we deem +desirable among men; we look upon the change as exceedingly +advantageous to us and to our posterity, and we fix upon +something that happened away back, as in some way or other being +connected with this rise of prosperity. We find a race of men +living in that day whom we claim as our fathers and grandfathers; +they were iron men; they fought for the principle that they were +contending for; and we understood that by what they then did it +has followed that the degree of prosperity which we now enjoy has +come to us. We hold this annual celebration to remind ourselves +of all the good done in this process of time, of how it was done +and who did it, and how we are historically connected with it; +and we go from these meetings in better humor with ourselves, we +feel more attached the one to the other, and more firmly bound to +the country we inhabit. In every way we are better men in the +age and race and country in which we live, for these +celebrations. But after we have done all this we have not yet +reached the whole. There is something else connected with it. +We have--besides these, men descended by blood from our +ancestors--among us perhaps half our people who are not +descendants at all of these men; they are men who have come from +Europe, German, Irish, French, and Scandinavian,--men that have +come from Europe themselves, or whose ancestors have come hither +and settled here, finding themselves our equals in all things. +If they look back through this history to trace their connection +with those days by blood, they find they have none, they cannot +carry themselves back into that glorious epoch and make +themselves feel that they are part of us; but when they look +through that old Declaration of Independence, they find that +those old men say that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, +that all men are created equal"; and then they feel that that +moral sentiment, taught in that day, evidences their relation to +those men, that it is the father of all moral principle in them, +and that they have a right to claim it as though they were blood +of the blood, and flesh of the flesh, of the men who wrote that +Declaration; and so they are. That is the electric cord in that +Declaration that links the hearts of patriotic and liberty-loving +men together, that will link those patriotic hearts as long as +the love of freedom exists in the minds of men throughout the +world. + +Now, sirs, for the purpose of squaring things with this idea of +"don't care if slavery is voted up or voted down," for sustaining +the Dred Scott decision, for holding that the Declaration of +Independence did not mean anything at all, we have Judge Douglas +giving his exposition of what the Declaration of Independence +means, and we have him saying that the people of America are +equal to the people of England. According to his construction, +you Germans are not connected with it. Now, I ask you in all +soberness if all these things, if indulged in, if ratified, if +confirmed and indorsed, if taught to our children, and repeated +to them, do not tend to rub out the sentiment of liberty in the +country, and to transform this government into a government of +some other form. Those arguments that are made, that the +inferior race are to be treated with as much allowance as they +are capable of enjoying; that as much is to be done for them as +their condition will allow,--what are these arguments? They are +the arguments that kings have made for enslaving the people in +all ages of the world. You will find that all the arguments in +favor of kingcraft were of this class; they always bestrode the +necks of the people not that they wanted to do it, but because +the people were better off for being ridden. That is their +argument, and this argument of the Judge is the same old serpent +that says, You work, and I eat; you toil, and I will enjoy the +fruits of it. Turn in whatever way you will, whether it come +from the mouth of a king, an excuse for enslaving the people of +his country, or from the mouth of men of one race as a reason for +enslaving the men of another race, it is all the same old +serpent; and I hold, if that course of argumentation that is made +for the purpose of convincing the public mind that we should not +care about this should be granted, it does not stop with the +negro. I should like to know, if taking this old Declaration of +Independence, which declares that all men are equal upon +principle, and making exceptions to it, where will it stop? If +one man says it does not mean a negro, why not another say it +does not mean some other man? If that Declaration is not the +truth, let us get the statute book, in which we find it, and tear +it out! Who is so bold as to do it? If it is not true, let us +tear it out! [Cries of "No, no."] Let us stick to it, then; let +us stand firmly by it, then. + +It may be argued that there are certain conditions that make +necessities and impose them upon us; and to the extent that a +necessity is imposed upon a man, he must submit to it. I think +that was the condition in which we found ourselves when we +established this government. We had slavery among us, we could +not get our Constitution unless we permitted them to remain in +slavery, we could not secure the good we did secure if we grasped +for more; and having by necessity submitted to that much, it does +not destroy the principle that is the charter of our liberties. +Let that charter stand as our standard. + +My friend has said to me that I am a poor hand to quote +Scripture. I will try it again, however. It is said in one of +the admonitions of our Lord, "As your Father in heaven is +perfect, be ye also perfect." The Savior, I suppose, did not +expect that any human creature could be perfect as the Father in +heaven; but he said, "As your Father in heaven is perfect, be ye +also perfect." He set that up as a standard; and he who did most +towards reaching that standard attained the highest degree of +moral perfection. So I say in relation to the principle that all +men are created equal, let it be as nearly reached as we can. If +we cannot give freedom to every creature, let us do nothing that +will impose slavery upon any other creature. Let us then turn +this government back into the channel in which the framers of the +Constitution originally placed it. Let us stand firmly by each +other. If we do not do so, we are turning in the contrary +direction, that our friend Judge Douglas proposes--not +intentionally--as working in the traces tends to make this one +universal slave nation. He is one that runs in that direction, +and as such I resist him. + +My friends, I have detained you about as long as I desired to do, +and I have only to say: Let us discard all this quibbling about +this man and the other man, this race and that race and the other +race being inferior, and therefore they must be placed in an +inferior position; discarding our standard that we have left us. +Let us discard all these things, and unite as one people +throughout this land, until we shall once more stand up declaring +that all men are created equal. + +My friends, I could not, without launching off upon some new +topic, which would detain you too long, continue to-night. I +thank you for this most extensive audience that you have +furnished me to-night. I leave you, hoping that the lamp of +liberty will burn in your bosoms until there shall no longer be a +doubt that all men are created free and equal. + + + + +SPEECH AT SPRINGFIELD, JULY 17, 1858. + +DELIVERED SATURDAY EVENING + +(Mr. Douglas was not present.) + +FELLOW-CITIZENS:--Another election, which is deemed an important +one, is approaching, and, as I suppose, the Republican party +will, without much difficulty, elect their State ticket. But in +regard to the Legislature, we, the Republicans, labor under some +disadvantages. In the first place, we have a Legislature to +elect upon an apportionment of the representation made several +years ago, when the proportion of the population was far greater +in the South (as compared with the North) than it now is; and +inasmuch as our opponents hold almost entire sway in the South, +and we a correspondingly large majority in the North, the fact +that we are now to be represented as we were years ago, when the +population was different, is to us a very great disadvantage. We +had in the year 1855, according to law, a census, or enumeration +of the inhabitants, taken for the purpose of a new apportionment +of representation. We know what a fair apportionment of +representation upon that census would give us. We know that it +could not, if fairly made, fail to give the Republican party from +six to ten more members of the Legislature than they can probably +get as the law now stands. It so happened at the last session of +the Legislature that our opponents, holding the control of both +branches of the Legislature, steadily refused to give us such an +apportionment as we were rightly entitled to have upon the census +already taken. The Legislature steadily refused to give us such +an apportionment as we were rightfully entitled to have upon the +census taken of the population of the State. The Legislature +would pass no bill upon that subject, except such as was at least +as unfair to us as the old one, and in which, in some instances, +two men in the Democratic regions were allowed to go as far +toward sending a member to the Legislature as three were in the +Republican regions. Comparison was made at the time as to +representative and senatorial districts, which completely +demonstrated that such was the fact. Such a bill was passed and +tendered to the Republican Governor for his signature; but, +principally for the reasons I have stated, he withheld his +approval, and the bill fell without becoming a law. + +Another disadvantage under which we labor is that there are one +or two Democratic Senators who will be members of the next +Legislature, and will vote for the election of Senator, who are +holding over in districts in which we could, on all reasonable +calculation, elect men of our own, if we only had the chance of +an election. When we consider that there are but twenty-five +Senators in the Senate, taking two from the side where they +rightfully belong, and adding them to the other, is to us a +disadvantage not to be lightly regarded. Still, so it is; we +have this to contend with. Perhaps there is no ground of +complaint on our part. In attending to the many things involved +in the last general election for President, Governor, Auditor, +Treasurer, Superintendent of Public Instruction, Members of +Congress, of the Legislature, County Officers, and so on, we +allowed these things to happen by want of sufficient attention, +and we have no cause to complain of our adversaries, so far as +this matter is concerned. But we have some cause to complain of +the refusal to give us a fair apportionment. + +There is still another disadvantage under which we labor, and to +which I will ask your attention. It arises out of the relative +positions of the two persons who stand before the State as +candidates for the Senate. Senator Douglas is of world-wide +renown. All the anxious politicians of his party, or who have +been of his party for years past, have been looking upon him as +certainly, at no distant day, to be the President of the United +States. They have seen in his round, jolly, fruitful face +post-offices, land-offices, marshalships, and cabinet +appointments, charge-ships and foreign missions bursting and +sprouting out in wonderful exuberance, ready to be laid hold of +by their greedy hands. And as they have been gazing upon this +attractive picture so long, they cannot, in the little +distraction that has taken place in the party, bring themselves +to give up the charming hope; but with greedier anxiety they rush +about him, sustain him, and give him marches, triumphal entries, +and receptions beyond what even in the days of his highest +prosperity they could have brought about in his favor. On the +contrary, nobody has ever expected me to be President. In my +poor, lean, lank face, nobody has ever seen that any cabbages +were sprouting out. These are disadvantages all, taken together, +that the Republicans labor under. We have to fight this battle +upon principle, and upon principle alone. I am, in a certain +sense, made the standard-bearer in behalf of the Republicans. I +was made so merely because there had to be some one so placed,--I +being in nowise preferable to any other one of twenty-five, +perhaps a hundred, we have in the Republican ranks. Then I say I +wish it to be distinctly understood and borne in mind that we +have to fight this battle without many--perhaps without any of +the external aids which are brought to bear against us. So I +hope those with whom I am surrounded have principle enough to +nerve themselves for the task, and leave nothing undone that can +be fairly done to bring about the right result. + +After Senator Douglas left Washington, as his movements were made +known by the public prints, he tarried a considerable time in the +city of New York; and it was heralded that, like another +Napoleon, he was lying by and framing the plan of his campaign. +It was telegraphed to Washington City, and published in the +Union, that he was framing his plan for the purpose of going to +Illinois to pounce upon and annihilate the treasonable and +disunion speech which Lincoln had made here on the 16th of June. +Now, I do suppose that the Judge really spent some time in New +York maturing the plan of the campaign, as his friends heralded +for him. I have been able, by noting his movements since his +arrival in Illinois, to discover evidences confirmatory of that +allegation. I think I have been able to see what are the +material points of that plan. I will, for a little while, ask +your attention to some of them. What I shall point out, though +not showing the whole plan, are, nevertheless, the main points, +as I suppose. + +They are not very numerous. The first is popular sovereignty. +The second and third are attacks upon my speech made on the 16th +of June. Out of these three points--drawing within the range of +popular sovereignty the question of the Lecompton Constitution-- +he makes his principal assault. Upon these his successive +speeches are substantially one and the same. On this matter of +popular sovereignty I wish to be a little careful. Auxiliary to +these main points, to be sure, are their thunderings of cannon, +their marching and music, their fizzlegigs and fireworks; but I +will not waste time with them. They are but the little trappings +of the campaign. + +Coming to the substance,--the first point,"popular sovereignty." +It is to be labeled upon the cars in which he travels; put upon +the hacks he rides in; to be flaunted upon the arches he passes +under, and the banners which wave over him. It is to be dished +up in as many varieties as a French cook can produce soups from +potatoes. Now, as this is so great a staple of the plan of the +campaign, it is worth while to examine it carefully; and if we +examine only a very little, and do not allow ourselves to be +misled, we shall be able to see that the whole thing is the most +arrant Quixotism that was ever enacted before a community. What +is the matter of popular sovereignty? The first thing, in order +to understand it, is to get a good definition of what it is, and +after that to see how it is applied. + +I suppose almost every one knows that, in this controversy, +whatever has been said has had reference to the question of negro +slavery. We have not been in a controversy about the right of +the people to govern themselves in the ordinary matters of +domestic concern in the States and Territories. Mr. Buchanan, in +one of his late messages (I think when he sent up the Lecompton +Constitution) urged that the main point to which the public +attention had been directed was not in regard to the great +variety of small domestic matters, but was directed to the +question of negro slavery; and he asserts that if the people had +had a fair chance to vote on that question there was no +reasonable ground of objection in regard to minor questions. +Now, while I think that the people had not had given, or offered, +them a fair chance upon that slavery question, still, if there +had been a fair submission to a vote upon that main question, the +President's proposition would have been true to the utmost. +Hence, when hereafter I speak of popular sovereignty, I wish to +be understood as applying what I say to the question of slavery +only, not to other minor domestic matters of a Territory or a +State. + +Does Judge Douglas, when he says that several of the past years +of his life have been devoted to the question of "popular +sovereignty," and that all the remainder of his life shall be +devoted to it, does he mean to say that he has been devoting his +life to securing to the people of the Territories the right to +exclude slavery from the Territories? If he means so to say he +means to deceive; because he and every one knows that the +decision of the Supreme Court, which he approves and makes +especial ground of attack upon me for disapproving, forbids the +people of a Territory to exclude slavery. This covers the whole +ground, from the settlement of a Territory till it reaches the +degree of maturity entitling it to form a State Constitution. So +far as all that ground is concerned, the Judge is not sustaining +popular sovereignty, but absolutely opposing it. He sustains the +decision which declares that the popular will of the Territory +has no constitutional power to exclude slavery during their +territorial existence. This being so, the period of time from +the first settlement of a Territory till it reaches the point of +forming a State Constitution is not the thing that the Judge has +fought for or is fighting for, but, on the contrary, he has +fought for, and is fighting for, the thing that annihilates and +crushes out that same popular sovereignty. + +Well, so much being disposed of, what is left? Why, he is +contending for the right of the people, when they come to make a +State Constitution, to make it for themselves, and precisely as +best suits themselves. I say again, that is quixotic. I defy +contradiction when I declare that the Judge can find no one to +oppose him on that proposition. I repeat, there is nobody +opposing that proposition on principle. Let me not be +misunderstood. I know that, with reference to the Lecompton +Constitution, I may be misunderstood; but when you understand me +correctly, my proposition will be true and accurate. Nobody is +opposing, or has opposed, the right of the people, when they form +a constitution, to form it for themselves. Mr. Buchanan and his +friends have not done it; they, too, as well as the Republicans +and the Anti-Lecompton Democrats, have not done it; but on the +contrary, they together have insisted on the right of the people +to form a constitution for themselves. The difference between +the Buchanan men on the one hand, and the Douglas men and the +Republicans on the other, has not been on a question of +principle, but on a question of fact. + +The dispute was upon the question of fact, whether the Lecompton +Constitution had been fairly formed by the people or not. Mr. +Buchanan and his friends have not contended for the contrary +principle any more than the Douglas men or the Republicans. They +have insisted that whatever of small irregularities existed in +getting up the Lecompton Constitution were such as happen in the +settlement of all new Territories. The question was, Was it a +fair emanation of the people? It was a question of fact, and not +of principle. As to the principle, all were agreed. Judge +Douglas voted with the Republicans upon that matter of fact. + +He and they, by their voices and votes, denied that it was a fair +emanation of the people. The Administration affirmed that it +was. With respect to the evidence bearing upon that question of +fact, I readily agree that Judge Douglas and the Republicans had +the right on their side, and that the Administration was wrong. +But I state again that, as a matter of principle, there is no +dispute upon the right of a people in a Territory, merging into a +State, to form a constitution for themselves without outside +interference from any quarter. This being so, what is Judge +Douglas going to spend his life for? Is he going to spend his +life in maintaining a principle that nobody on earth opposes? +Does he expect to stand up in majestic dignity, and go through +his apotheosis and become a god in the maintaining of a principle +which neither man nor mouse in all God's creation is opposing? +Now something in regard to the Lecompton Constitution more +specially; for I pass from this other question of popular +sovereignty as the most arrant humbug that has ever been +attempted on an intelligent community. + +As to the Lecompton Constitution, I have already said that on the +question of fact, as to whether it was a fair emanation of the +people or not, Judge Douglas, with the Republicans and some +Americans, had greatly the argument against the Administration; +and while I repeat this, I wish to know what there is in the +opposition of Judge Douglas to the Lecompton Constitution that +entitles him to be considered the only opponent to it,--as being +par excellence the very quintessence of that opposition. I agree +to the rightfulness of his opposition. He in the Senate and his +class of men there formed the number three and no more. In the +House of Representatives his class of men--the Anti-Lecompton +Democrats--formed a number of about twenty. It took one hundred +and twenty to defeat the measure, against one hundred and twelve. +Of the votes of that one hundred and twenty, Judge Douglas's +friends furnished twenty, to add to which there were six +Americans and ninety-four Republicans. I do not say that I am +precisely accurate in their numbers, but I am sufficiently so for +any use I am making of it. + +Why is it that twenty shall be entitled to all the credit of +doing that work, and the hundred none of it? Why, if, as Judge +Douglas says, the honor is to be divided and due credit is to be +given to other parties, why is just so much given as is consonant +with the wishes, the interests, and advancement of the twenty? +My understanding is, when a common job is done, or a common +enterprise prosecuted, if I put in five dollars to your one, I +have a right to take out five dollars to your one. But he does +not so understand it. He declares the dividend of credit for +defeating Lecompton upon a basis which seems unprecedented and +incomprehensible. + +Let us see. Lecompton in the raw was defeated. It afterward +took a sort of cooked-up shape, and was passed in the English +bill. It is said by the Judge that the defeat was a good and +proper thing. If it was a good thing, why is he entitled to more +credit than others for the performance of that good act, unless +there was something in the antecedents of the Republicans that +might induce every one to expect them to join in that good work, +and at the same time something leading them to doubt that he +would? Does he place his superior claim to credit on the ground +that he performed a good act which was never expected of him? He +says I have a proneness for quoting Scripture. If I should do so +now, it occurs that perhaps he places himself somewhat upon the +ground of the parable of the lost sheep which went astray upon +the mountains, and when the owner of the hundred sheep found the +one that was lost, and threw it upon his shoulders and came home +rejoicing, it was said that there was more rejoicing over the one +sheep that was lost and had been found than over the ninety and +nine in the fold. The application is made by the Saviour in this +parable, thus: "Verily, I say unto you, there is more rejoicing +in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, than over ninety and +nine just persons that need no repentance." + +And now, if the Judge claims the benefit of this parable, let him +repent. Let him not come up here and say: "I am the only just +person; and you are the ninety-nine sinners! Repentance before +forgiveness is a provision of the Christian system, and on that +condition alone will the Republicans grant his forgiveness. + +How will he prove that we have ever occupied a different position +in regard to the Lecompton Constitution or any principle in it? +He says he did not make his opposition on the ground as to +whether it was a free or slave constitution, and he would have +you understand that the Republicans made their opposition because +it ultimately became a slave constitution. To make proof in +favor of himself on this point, he reminds us that he opposed +Lecompton before the vote was taken declaring whether the State +was to be free or slave. But he forgets to say that our +Republican Senator, Trumbull, made a speech against Lecompton +even before he did. + +Why did he oppose it? Partly, as he declares, because the +members of the convention who framed it were not fairly elected +by the people; that the people were not allowed to vote unless +they had been registered; and that the people of whole counties, +some instances, were not registered. For these reasons he +declares the Constitution was not an emanation, in any true +sense, from the people. He also has an additional objection as +to the mode of submitting the Constitution back to the people. +But bearing on the question of whether the delegates were fairly +elected, a speech of his, made something more than twelve months +ago, from this stand, becomes important. It was made a little +while before the election of the delegates who made Lecompton. +In that speech he declared there was every reason to hope and +believe the election would be fair; and if any one failed to +vote, it would be his own culpable fault. + +I, a few days after, made a sort of answer to that speech. In +that answer I made, substantially, the very argument with which +he combated his Lecompton adversaries in the Senate last winter. +I pointed to the facts that the people could not vote without +being registered, and that the time for registering had gone by. +I commented on it as wonderful that Judge Douglas could be +ignorant of these facts which every one else in the nation so +well knew. + +I now pass from popular sovereignty and Lecompton. I may have +occasion to refer to one or both. + +When he was preparing his plan of campaign, Napoleon-like, in New +York, as appears by two speeches I have heard him deliver since +his arrival in Illinois, he gave special attention to a speech of +mine, delivered here on the 16th of June last. He says that he +carefully read that speech. He told us that at Chicago a week +ago last night and he repeated it at Bloomington last night. +Doubtless, he repeated it again to-day, though I did not hear +him. In the first two places--Chicago and Bloomington I heard +him; to-day I did not. He said he had carefully examined that +speech,--when, he did not say; but there is no reasonable doubt +it was when he was in New York preparing his plan of campaign. I +am glad he did read it carefully. He says it was evidently +prepared with great care. I freely admit it was prepared with +care. I claim not to be more free from errors than others,-- +perhaps scarcely so much; but I was very careful not to put +anything in that speech as a matter of fact, or make any +inferences, which did not appear to me to be true and fully +warrantable. If I had made any mistake, I was willing to be +corrected; if I had drawn any inference in regard to Judge +Douglas or any one else which was not warranted, I was fully +prepared to modify it as soon as discovered. I planted myself +upon the truth and the truth only, so far as I knew it, or could +be brought to know it. + +Having made that speech with the most kindly feelings toward +Judge Douglas, as manifested therein, I was gratified when I +found that he had carefully examined it, and had detected no +error of fact, nor any inference against him, nor any +misrepresentations of which he thought fit to complain. In +neither of the two speeches I have mentioned did he make any such +complaint. I will thank any one who will inform me that he, in +his speech to-day, pointed out anything I had stated respecting +him as being erroneous. I presume there is no such thing. I +have reason to be gratified that the care and caution used in +that speech left it so that he, most of all others interested in +discovering error, has not been able to point out one thing +against him which he could say was wrong. He seizes upon the +doctrines he supposes to be included in that speech, and declares +that upon them will turn the issues of this campaign. He then +quotes, or attempts to quote, from my speech. I will not say +that he wilfully misquotes, but he does fail to quote accurately. +His attempt at quoting is from a passage which I believe I can +quote accurately from memory. I shall make the quotation now, +with some comments upon it, as I have already said, in order that +the Judge shall be left entirely without excuse for +misrepresenting me. I do so now, as I hope, for the last time. +I do this in great caution, in order that if he repeats his +misrepresentation it shall be plain to all that he does so +wilfully. If, after all, he still persists, I shall be compelled +to reconstruct the course I have marked out for myself, and draw +upon such humble resources, as I have, for a new course, better +suited to the real exigencies of the case. I set out in this +campaign with the intention of conducting it strictly as a +gentleman, in substance at least, if not in the outside polish. +The latter I shall never be; but that which constitutes the +inside of a gentleman I hope I understand, and am not less +inclined to practice than others. It was my purpose and +expectation that this canvass would be conducted upon principle, +and with fairness on both sides, and it shall not be my fault if +this purpose and expectation shall be given up. + +He charges, in substance, that I invite a war of sections; that I +propose all the local institutions of the different States shall +become consolidated and uniform. What is there in the language +of that speech which expresses such purpose or bears such +construction? I have again and again said that I would not enter +into any of the States to disturb the institution of slavery. +Judge Douglas said, at Bloomington, that I used language most +able and ingenious for concealing what I really meant; and that +while I had protested against entering into the slave States, I +nevertheless did mean to go on the banks of the Ohio and throw +missiles into Kentucky, to disturb them in their domestic +institutions. + +I said in that speech, and I meant no more, that the institution +of slavery ought to be placed in the very attitude where the +framers of this government placed it and left it. I do not +understand that the framers of our Constitution left the people +of the free States in the attitude of firing bombs or shells into +the slave States. I was not using that passage for the purpose +for which he infers I did use it. I said: + +"We are now far advanced into the fifth year since a policy was +created for the avowed object and with the confident promise of +putting an end to slavery agitation. Under the operation of that +policy that agitation has not only not ceased, but has constantly +augmented. In my opinion it will not cease till a crisis shall +have been reached and passed. 'A house divided against itself +cannot stand.' I believe that this government cannot endure +permanently half slave and half free; it will become all one +thing or all the other. Either the opponents of slavery will +arrest the further spread of it, and place it where the public +mind shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of +ultimate extinction, or its advocates will push it forward till +it shall become alike lawful in all the States, old as well as +new, North as well as South." + +Now, you all see, from that quotation, I did not express my wish +on anything. In that passage I indicated no wish or purpose of +my own; I simply expressed my expectation. Cannot the Judge +perceive a distinction between a purpose and an expectation? I +have often expressed an expectation to die, but I have never +expressed a wish to die. I said at Chicago, and now repeat, that +I am quite aware this government has endured, half slave and half +free, for eighty-two years. I understand that little bit of +history. I expressed the opinion I did because I perceived--or +thought I perceived--a new set of causes introduced. I did say +at Chicago, in my speech there, that I do wish to see the spread +of slavery arrested, and to see it placed where the public mind +shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of ultimate +extinction. I said that because I supposed, when the public mind +shall rest in that belief, we shall have peace on the slavery +question. I have believed--and now believe--the public mind did +rest on that belief up to the introduction of the Nebraska Bill. + +Although I have ever been opposed to slavery, so far I rested in +the hope and belief that it was in the course of ultimate +extinction. For that reason it had been a minor question with +me. I might have been mistaken; but I had believed, and now +believe, that the whole public mind, that is, the mind of the +great majority, had rested in that belief up to the repeal of the +Missouri Compromise. But upon that event I became convinced that +either I had been resting in a delusion, or the institution was +being placed on a new basis, a basis for making it perpetual, +national, and universal. Subsequent events have greatly +confirmed me in that belief. I believe that bill to be the +beginning of a conspiracy for that purpose. So believing, I have +since then considered that question a paramount one. So +believing, I thought the public mind will never rest till the +power of Congress to restrict the spread of it shall again be +acknowledged and exercised on the one hand or, on the other, all +resistance be entirely crushed out. I have expressed that +opinion, and I entertain it to-night. It is denied that there is +any tendency to the nationalization of slavery in these States. + +Mr. Brooks, of South Carolina, in one of his speeches, when they +were presenting him canes, silver plate, gold pitchers, and the +like, for assaulting Senator Sumner, distinctly affirmed his +opinion that when this Constitution was formed it was the belief +of no man that slavery would last to the present day. He said, +what I think, that the framers of our Constitution placed the +institution of slavery where the public mind rested in the hope +that it was in the course of ultimate extinction. But he went on +to say that the men of the present age, by their experience, have +become wiser than the framers of the Constitution, and the +invention of the cotton gin had made the perpetuity of slavery a +necessity in this country. + +As another piece of evidence tending to this same point: Quite +recently in Virginia, a man--the owner of slaves--made a will +providing that after his death certain of his slaves should have +their freedom if they should so choose, and go to Liberia, rather +than remain in slavery. They chose to be liberated. But the +persons to whom they would descend as property claimed them as +slaves. A suit was instituted, which finally came to the Supreme +Court of Virginia, and was therein decided against the slaves +upon the ground that a negro cannot make a choice; that they had +no legal power to choose, could not perform the condition upon +which their freedom depended. + +I do not mention this with any purpose of criticizing it, but to +connect it with the arguments as affording additional evidence of +the change of sentiment upon this question of slavery in the +direction of making it perpetual and national. I argue now as I +did before, that there is such a tendency; and I am backed, not +merely by the facts, but by the open confession in the slave +States. + +And now as to the Judge's inference that because I wish to see +slavery placed in the course of ultimate extinction,--placed +where our fathers originally placed it,--I wish to annihilate the +State Legislatures, to force cotton to grow upon the tops of the +Green Mountains, to freeze ice in Florida, to cut lumber on the +broad Illinois prairie,--that I am in favor of all these +ridiculous and impossible things. + +It seems to me it is a complete answer to all this to ask if, +when Congress did have the fashion of restricting slavery from +free territory; when courts did have the fashion of deciding that +taking a slave into a free country made him free,--I say it is a +sufficient answer to ask if any of this ridiculous nonsense about +consolidation and uniformity did actually follow. Who heard of +any such thing because of the Ordinance of '87? because of the +Missouri restriction? because of the numerous court decisions of +that character? + +Now, as to the Dred Scott decision; for upon that he makes his +last point at me. He boldly takes ground in favor of that +decision. + +This is one half the onslaught, and one third of the entire plan +of the campaign. I am opposed to that decision in a certain +sense, but not in the sense which he puts it. I say that in so +far as it decided in favor of Dred Scott's master, and against +Dred Scott and his family, I do not propose to disturb or resist +the decision. + +I never have proposed to do any such thing. I think that in +respect for judicial authority my humble history would not suffer +in comparison with that of Judge Douglas. He would have the +citizen conform his vote to that decision; the member of +Congress, his; the President, his use of the veto power. He +would make it a rule of political action for the people and all +the departments of the government. I would not. By resisting it +as a political rule, I disturb no right of property, create no +disorder, excite no mobs. + +When he spoke at Chicago, on Friday evening of last week, he made +this same point upon me. On Saturday evening I replied, and +reminded him of a Supreme Court decision which he opposed for at +least several years. Last night, at Bloomington, he took some +notice of that reply, but entirely forgot to remember that part +of it. + +He renews his onslaught upon me, forgetting to remember that I +have turned the tables against himself on that very point. I +renew the effort to draw his attention to it. I wish to stand +erect before the country, as well as Judge Douglas, on this +question of judicial authority; and therefore I add something to +the authority in favor of my own position. I wish to show that I +am sustained by authority, in addition to that heretofore +presented. I do not expect to convince the Judge. It is part of +the plan of his campaign, and he will cling to it with a +desperate grip. Even turn it upon him,--the sharp point against +him, and gaff him through,--he will still cling to it till he can +invent some new dodge to take the place of it. + +In public speaking it is tedious reading from documents; but I +must beg to indulge the practice to a limited extent. I shall +read from a letter written by Mr. Jefferson in 1820, and now to +be found in the seventh volume of his correspondence, at page +177. It seems he had been presented by a gentleman of the name +of Jarvis with a book, or essay, or periodical, called the +Republican, and he was writing in acknowledgment of the present, +and noting some of its contents. After expressing the hope that +the work will produce a favorable effect upon the minds of the +young, he proceeds to say: + +"That it will have this tendency may be expected, and for that +reason I feel an urgency to note what I deem an error in it, the +more requiring notice as your opinion is strengthened by that of +many others. You seem, in pages 84 and 148, to consider the +judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions,- +-a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us +under the despotism of an oligarchy. Our judges are as honest as +other men, and not more so. They have, with others, the same +passions for party, for power, and the privilege of their corps. +Their maxim is, 'Boni judicis est ampliare jurisdictionem'; and +their power is the more dangerous as they are in office for life, +and not responsible, as the other functionaries are, to the +elective control. The Constitution has erected no such single +tribunal, knowing that, to whatever hands confided, with the +corruptions of time and party, its members would become despots. +It has more wisely made all the departments co-equal and +co-sovereign with themselves." + +Thus we see the power claimed for the Supreme Court by Judge +Douglas, Mr. Jefferson holds, would reduce us to the despotism of +an oligarchy. + +Now, I have said no more than this,--in fact, never quite so much +as this; at least I am sustained by Mr. Jefferson. + +Let us go a little further. You remember we once had a National +Bank. Some one owed the bank a debt; he was sued, and sought to +avoid payment on the ground that the bank was unconstitutional. +The case went to the Supreme Court, and therein it was decided +that the bank was constitutional. The whole Democratic party +revolted against that decision. General Jackson himself asserted +that he, as President, would not be bound to hold a National Bank +to be constitutional, even though the court had decided it to be +so. He fell in precisely with the view of Mr. Jefferson, and +acted upon it under his official oath, in vetoing a charter for a +National Bank. The declaration that Congress does not possess +this constitutional power to charter a bank has gone into the +Democratic platform, at their National Conventions, and was +brought forward and reaffirmed in their last Convention at +Cincinnati. They have contended for that declaration, in the +very teeth of the Supreme Court, for more than a quarter of a +century. In fact, they have reduced the decision to an absolute +nullity. That decision, I repeat, is repudiated in the +Cincinnati platform; and still, as if to show that effrontery can +go no further, Judge Douglas vaunts in the very speeches in which +he denounces me for opposing the Dred Scott decision that he +stands on the Cincinnati platform. + +Now, I wish to know what the Judge can charge upon me, with +respect to decisions of the Supreme Court, which does not lie in +all its length, breadth, and proportions at his own door. The +plain truth is simply this: Judge Douglas is for Supreme Court +decisions when he likes and against them when he does not like +them. He is for the Dred Scott decision because it tends to +nationalize slavery; because it is part of the original +combination for that object. It so happens, singularly enough, +that I never stood opposed to a decision of the Supreme Court +till this, on the contrary, I have no recollection that he was +ever particularly in favor of one till this. He never was in +favor of any nor opposed to any, till the present one, which +helps to nationalize slavery. + +Free men of Sangamon, free men of Illinois, free men everywhere, +judge ye between him and me upon this issue. + +He says this Dred Scott case is a very small matter at most,-- +that it has no practical effect; that at best, or rather, I +suppose, at worst, it is but an abstraction. I submit that the +proposition that the thing which determines whether a man is free +or a slave is rather concrete than abstract. I think you would +conclude that it was, if your liberty depended upon it, and so +would Judge Douglas, if his liberty depended upon it. But +suppose it was on the question of spreading slavery over the new +Territories that he considers it as being merely an abstract +matter, and one of no practical importance. How has the planting +of slavery in new countries always been effected? It has now +been decided that slavery cannot be kept out of our new +Territories by any legal means. In what do our new Territories +now differ in this respect from the old Colonies when slavery was +first planted within them? It was planted, as Mr. Clay once +declared, and as history proves true, by individual men, in spite +of the wishes of the people; the Mother Government refusing to +prohibit it, and withholding from the people of the Colonies the +authority to prohibit it for themselves. Mr. Clay says this was +one of the great and just causes of complaint against Great +Britain by the Colonies, and the best apology we can now make for +having the institution amongst us. In that precise condition our +Nebraska politicians have at last succeeded in placing our own +new Territories; the government will not prohibit slavery within +them, nor allow the people to prohibit it. + +I defy any man to find any difference between the policy which +originally planted slavery in these Colonies and that policy +which now prevails in our new Territories. If it does not go +into them, it is only because no individual wishes it to go. The +Judge indulged himself doubtless to-day with the question as to +what I am going to do with or about the Dred Scott decision. +Well, Judge, will you please tell me what you did about the bank +decision? Will you not graciously allow us to do with the Dred +Scott decision precisely as you did with the bank decision? You +succeeded in breaking down the moral effect of that decision: did +you find it necessary to amend the Constitution, or to set up a +court of negroes in order to do it? + +There is one other point. Judge Douglas has a very affectionate +leaning toward the Americans and Old Whigs. Last evening, in a +sort of weeping tone, he described to us a death-bed scene. He +had been called to the side of Mr. Clay, in his last moments, in +order that the genius of "popular sovereignty" might duly descend +from the dying man and settle upon him, the living and most +worthy successor. He could do no less than promise that he would +devote the remainder of his life to "popular sovereignty"; and +then the great statesman departs in peace. By this part of the +"plan of the campaign" the Judge has evidently promised himself +that tears shall be drawn down the cheeks of all Old Whigs, as +large as half-grown apples. + +Mr. Webster, too, was mentioned; but it did not quite come to a +death-bed scene as to him. It would be amusing, if it were not +disgusting, to see how quick these compromise-breakers administer +on the political effects of their dead adversaries, trumping up +claims never before heard of, and dividing the assets among +themselves. If I should be found dead to-morrow morning, nothing +but my insignificance could prevent a speech being made on my +authority, before the end of next week. It so happens that in +that "popular sovereignty" with which Mr. Clay was identified, +the Missouri Compromise was expressly reversed; and it was a +little singular if Mr. Clay cast his mantle upon Judge Douglas on +purpose to have that compromise repealed. + +Again, the Judge did not keep faith with Mr. Clay when he first +brought in his Nebraska Bill. He left the Missouri Compromise +unrepealed, and in his report accompanying the bill he told the +world he did it on purpose. The manes of Mr. Clay must have been +in great agony till thirty days later, when "popular sovereignty" +stood forth in all its glory. + +One more thing. Last night Judge Douglas tormented himself with +horrors about my disposition to make negroes perfectly equal with +white men in social and political relations. He did not stop to +show that I have said any such thing, or that it legitimately +follows from anything I have said, but he rushes on with his +assertions. I adhere to the Declaration of Independence. If +Judge Douglas and his friends are not willing to stand by it, let +them come up and amend it. Let them make it read that all men +are created equal except negroes. Let us have it decided whether +the Declaration of Independence, in this blessed year of 1858, +shall be thus amended. In his construction of the Declaration +last year, he said it only meant that Americans in America were +equal to Englishmen in England. Then, when I pointed out to him +that by that rule he excludes the Germans, the Irish, the +Portuguese, and all the other people who have come among us since +the revolution, he reconstructs his construction. In his last +speech he tells us it meant Europeans. + +I press him a little further, and ask if it meant to include the +Russians in Asia; or does he mean to exclude that vast population +from the principles of our Declaration of Independence? I expect +ere long he will introduce another amendment to his definition. +He is not at all particular. He is satisfied with anything which +does not endanger the nationalizing of negro slavery. It may +draw white men down, but it must not lift negroes up. + +Who shall say, "I am the superior, and you are the inferior"? + +My declarations upon this subject of negro slavery may be +misrepresented, but cannot be misunderstood. I have said that I +do not understand the Declaration to mean that all men were +created equal in all respects. They are not our equal in color; +but I suppose that it does mean to declare that all men are equal +in some respects; they are equal in their right to "life, +liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Certainly the negro is +not our equal in color, perhaps not in many other respects; +still, in the right to put into his mouth the bread that his own +hands have earned, he is the equal of every other man, white or +black. In pointing out that more has been given you, you cannot +be justified in taking away the little which has been given him. +All I ask for the negro is that if you do not like him, let him +alone. If God gave him but little, that little let him enjoy. + +When our government was established we had the institution of +slavery among us. We were in a certain sense compelled to +tolerate its existence. It was a sort of necessity. We had gone +through our struggle and secured our own independence. The +framers of the Constitution found the institution of slavery +amongst their own institutions at the time. They found that by +an effort to eradicate it they might lose much of what they had +already gained. They were obliged to bow to the necessity. They +gave power to Congress to abolish the slave trade at the end of +twenty years. They also prohibited it in the Territories where +it did not exist. They did what they could, and yielded to the +necessity for the rest. I also yield to all which follows from +that necessity. What I would most desire would be the separation +of the white and black races. + +One more point on this Springfield speech which Judge Douglas +says he has read so carefully. I expressed my belief in the +existence of a conspiracy to perpetuate and nationalize slavery. +I did not profess to know it, nor do I now. I showed the part +Judge Douglas had played in the string of facts constituting to +my mind the proof of that conspiracy. I showed the parts played +by others. + +I charged that the people had been deceived into carrying the +last Presidential election, by the impression that the people of +the Territories might exclude slavery if they chose, when it was +known in advance by the conspirators that the court was to decide +that neither Congress nor the people could so exclude slavery. +These charges are more distinctly made than anything else in the +speech. + +Judge Douglas has carefully read and reread that speech. He has +not, so far as I know, contradicted those charges. In the two +speeches which I heard he certainly did not. On this own tacit +admission, I renew that charge. I charge him with having been a +party to that conspiracy and to that deception for the sole +purpose of nationalizing slavery. + + + + +CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN LINCOLN AND DOUGLAS + +[The following is the correspondence between the two rival +candidates for the United States Senate] + +MR. LINCOLN TO MR. DOUGLAS. + +CHICAGO, ILL., July 24, 1558. + +HON. S. A. DOUGLAS: + +My dear Sir,--Will it be agreeable to you to make an arrangement +for you and myself to divide time, and address the same audiences +the present canvass? Mr. Judd, who will hand you this, is +authorized to receive your answer; and, if agreeable to you, to +enter into the terms of such arrangement. + +Your obedient servant, + +A. LINCOLN. + + + + +Mr. DOUGLAS TO Mr. LINCOLN. + +BEMENT, PIATT Co., ILL., July 30, 1858. + +Dear Sir,--Your letter dated yesterday, accepting my proposition +for a joint discussion at one prominent point in each +Congressional District, as stated in my previous letter, was +received this morning. + +The times and places designated are as follows: + +Ottawa, La Salle County August 21st, 1858. +Freeport, Stephenson County " 27th, +Jonesboro, Union County, September 15th, +Charleston, Coles County " 18th, +Galesburgh, Knox County October 7th, +Quincy, Adams County " 13th, +Alton, Madison County " 15th, + +I agree to your suggestion that we shall alternately open and +close the discussion. I will speak at Ottawa one hour, you can +reply, occupying an hour and a half, and I will then follow for +half an hour. At Freeport, you shall open the discussion and +speak one hour; I will follow for an hour and a half, and you can +then reply for half an hour. We will alternate in like manner in +each successive place. + +Very respectfully, your obedient servant, + +S. A. DOUGLAS. + + + + +Mr. LINCOLN TO Mr. DOUGLAS. + +SPRINGFIELD, July 31, 1858. + +HON. S. A. DOUGLAS: + +Dear Sir,--Yours of yesterday, naming places, times, and terms +for joint discussions between us, was received this morning. +Although, by the terms, as you propose, you take four openings +and closes, to my three, I accede, and thus close the +arrangement. I direct this to you at Hillsborough, and shall try +to have both your letter and this appear in the Journal and +Register of Monday morning. + +Your obedient servant, + +A. LINCOLN. + + + + +FIRST JOINT DEBATE, AT OTTAWA, + +AUGUST 21, 1858 + +Mr. LINCOLN'S REPLY + +MY FELLOW-CITIZENS:--When a man hears himself somewhat +misrepresented, it provokes him, at least, I find it so with +myself; but when misrepresentation becomes very gross and +palpable, it is more apt to amuse him. The first thing I see fit +to notice is the fact that Judge Douglas alleges, after running +through the history of the old Democratic and the old Whig +parties, that Judge Trumbull and myself made an arrangement in +1854, by which I was to have the place of General Shields in the +United States Senate, and Judge Trumbull was to have the place of +Judge Douglas. Now, all I have to say upon that subject is that +I think no man not even Judge Douglas can prove it, because it is +not true. I have no doubt he is "conscientious" in saying it. +As to those resolutions that he took such a length of time to +read, as being the platform of the Republican party in 1854, I +say I never had anything to do with them, and I think Trumbull +never had. Judge Douglas cannot show that either of us ever did +have anything to do with them. + +I believe this is true about those resolutions: There was a call +for a convention to form a Republican party at Springfield, and I +think that my friend Mr. Lovejoy, who is here upon this stand, +had a hand in it. I think this is true, and I think if he will +remember accurately he will be able to recollect that he tried to +get me into it, and I would not go in. I believe it is also true +that I went away from Springfield when the convention was in +session, to attend court in Tazewell county. It is true they did +place my name, though without authority, upon the committee, and +afterward wrote me to attend the meeting of the committee; but I +refused to do so, and I never had anything to do with that +organization. This is the plain truth about all that matter of +the resolutions. + +Now, about this story that Judge Douglas tells of Trumbull +bargaining to sell out the old Democratic party, and Lincoln +agreeing to sell out the old Whig party, I have the means of +knowing about that: Judge Douglas cannot have; and I know there +is no substance to it whatever. Yet I have no doubt he is +"conscientious" about it. I know that after Mr. Lovejoy got into +the Legislature that winter, he complained of me that I had told +all the old Whigs of his district that the old Whig party was +good enough for them, and some of them voted against him because +I told them so. Now, I have no means of totally disproving such +charges as this which the Judge makes. A man cannot prove a +negative; but he has a right to claim that when a man makes an +affirmative charge, he must offer some proof to show the truth of +what he says. I certainly cannot introduce testimony to show the +negative about things, but I have a right to claim that if a man +says he knows a thing, then he must show how he knows it. I +always have a right to claim this, and it is not satisfactory to +me that he may be "conscientious" on the subject. + +Now, gentlemen, I hate to waste my time on such things; but in +regard to that general Abolition tilt that Judge Douglas makes, +when he says that I was engaged at that time in selling out and +Abolitionizing the old Whig party, I hope you will permit me to +read a part of a printed speech that I made then at Peoria, which +will show altogether a different view of the position I took in +that contest of 1854. + +[Voice:"Put on your specs."] + +Mr. LINCOLN: Yes, sir, I am obliged to do so; I am no longer a +young man. + +"This is the repeal of the Missouri Compromise. The foregoing +history may not be precisely accurate in every particular, but I +am sure it is sufficiently so for all the uses I shall attempt to +make of it, and in it we have before us the chief materials +enabling us to correctly judge whether the repeal of the Missouri +Compromise is right or wrong. + +"I think, and shall try to show, that it is wrong--wrong in its +direct effect, letting slavery into Kansas and Nebraska, and +wrong in its prospective principle, allowing it to spread to +every other part of the wide world where men can be found +inclined to take it. + +"This declared indifference, but, as I must think, covert real +zeal for the spread of slavery, I cannot but hate. I hate it +because of the monstrous injustice of slavery itself. I hate it +because it deprives our republican example of its just influence +in the world,--enables the enemies of free institutions, with +plausibility, to taunt us as hypocrites; causes the real friends +of freedom to doubt our sincerity, and especially because it +forces so many really good men amongst ourselves into an open war +with the very fundamental principles of civil liberty, +criticizing the Declaration of Independence, and insisting that +there is no right principle of action but self-interest. + +"Before proceeding, let me say I think I have no prejudice +against the Southern people. They are just what we would be in +their situation. If slavery did not now exist among them, they +would not introduce it. If it did now exist among us, we should +not instantly give it up. This I believe of the masses north and +south. Doubtless there are individuals on both sides who would +not hold slaves under any circumstances; and others who would +gladly introduce slavery anew, if it were out of existence. We +know that some Southern men do free their slaves, go north, and +become tip-top Abolitionists; while some Northern ones go south +and become most cruel slave-masters. + +"When Southern people tell us they are no more responsible for +the origin of slavery than we, I acknowledge the fact. When it +is said that the institution exists, and that it is very +difficult to get rid of it, in any satisfactory way, I can +understand and appreciate the saying. I will not blame them for +not doing what I should not know how to do myself. If all +earthly power were given me, I should not know what to do, as to +the existing institution. My first impulse would be to free all +the slaves and send them to Liberia,--to their own native land. +But a moment's reflection would convince me that whatever of high +hope (as I think there is) there may be in this in the long term, +its sudden execution is impossible. If they were all landed +there in a day, they would all perish in the next ten days; and +there are not surp1us shipping and surplus money enough in the +world to carry them there in many times ten days. What then? +Free them all and keep them among us as underlings? Is it quite +certain that this betters their condition? I think I would not +hold one in slavery, at any rate; yet the point is not clear +enough to me to denounce people upon. What next? Free them, and +make them politically and socially our equals? My own feelings +will not admit of this; and if mine would, we well know that +those of the great mass of white people will not. Whether this +feeling accords with justice and sound judgment, is not the sole +question, if, indeed, it is any part of it. A universal feeling, +whether well or ill founded, cannot be safely disregarded. We +cannot, then, make them equals. It does seem to me that systems +of gradual emancipation might be adopted; but for their tardiness +in this I will not undertake to judge our brethren of the South. + +"When they remind us of their constitutional rights, I +acknowledge them, not grudgingly, but fully and fairly; and I +would give them any legislation for the reclaiming of their +fugitives, which should not, in its stringency, be more likely to +carry a free man into slavery than Our ordinary criminal laws are +to hang an innocent one. + +"But all this, to my judgment, furnishes no more excuse for +permitting slavery to go into our own free territory than it +would for reviving the African slave-trade by law. The law which +forbids the bringing of slaves from Africa, and that which has so +long forbid the taking of them to Nebraska, can hardly be +distinguished on any moral principle; and the repeal of the +former could find quite as plausible excuses as that of the +latter." + +I have reason to know that Judge Douglas knows that I said this. +I think he has the answer here to one of the questions he put to +me. I do not mean to allow him to catechize me unless he pays +back for it in kind. I will not answer questions one after +another, unless he reciprocates; but as he has made this inquiry, +and I have answered it before, he has got it without my getting +anything in return. He has got my answer on the Fugitive Slave +law. + +Now, gentlemen, I don't want to read at any greater length; but +this is the true complexion of all I have ever said in regard to +the institution of slavery and the black race. This is the whole +of it; and anything that argues me into his idea of perfect +social and political equality with the negro is but a specious +and fantastic arrangement of words, by which a man can prove a +horse-chestnut to be a chestnut horse. I will say here, while +upon this subject, that I have no purpose, directly or +indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the +States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do +so, and I have no inclination to do so. I have no purpose to +introduce political and social equality between the white and the +black races. There is a physical difference between the two +which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living +together upon the footing of perfect equality; and inasmuch as it +becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well +as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong +having the superior position. I have never said anything to the +contrary, but I hold that, notwithstanding all this, there is no +reason in the world why the negro is not entitled to all the +natural rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, the +right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I hold +that he is as much entitled to these as the white man. I agree +with Judge Douglas he is not my equal in many respects, certainly +not in color, perhaps not in moral or intellectual endowment. +But in the right to eat the bread, without the leave of anybody +else, which his own hand earns, he is my equal, and the equal of +Judge Douglas, and the equal of every living man. + +Now I pass on to consider one or two more of these little +follies. The Judge is woefully at fault about his early friend +Lincoln being a "grocery-keeper." I don't know as it would be a +great sin, if I had been; but he is mistaken. Lincoln never kept +a grocery anywhere in the world. It is true that Lincoln did +work the latter part of one winter in a little stillhouse, up at +the head of a hollow. And so I think my friend the Judge is +equally at fault when he charges me at the time when I was in +Congress of having opposed our soldiers who were fighting in the +Mexican war. The Judge did not make his charge very distinctly, +but I can tell you what he can prove, by referring to the record. +You remember I was an old Whig, and whenever the Democratic party +tried to get me to vote that the war had been righteously begun +by the President, I would not do it. But whenever they asked for +any money, or landwarrants, or anything to pay the soldiers +there, during all that time, I gave the same vote that Judge +Douglas did. You can think as you please as to whether that was +consistent. Such is the truth, and the Judge has the right to +make all he can out of it. But when he, by a general charge, +conveys the idea that I withheld supplies from the soldiers who +were fighting in the Mexican war, or did anything else to hinder +the soldiers, he is, to say the least, grossly and altogether +mistaken, as a consultation of the records will prove to him. + +As I have not used up so much of my time as I had supposed, I +will dwell a little longer upon one or two of these minor topics +upon which the Judge has spoken. He has read from my speech in +Springfield, in which I say that "a house divided against itself +cannot stand" Does the Judge say it can stand? I don't know +whether he does or not. The Judge does not seem to be attending +to me just now, but I would like to know if it is his opinion +that a house divided against itself can stand. If he does, then +there is a question of veracity, not between him and me, but +between the Judge and an Authority of a somewhat higher +character. + +Now, my friends, I ask your attention to this matter for the +purpose of saying something seriously. I know that the Judge may +readily enough agree with me that the maxim which was put forth +by the Savior is true, but he may allege that I misapply it; and +the Judge has a right to urge that, in my application, I do +misapply it, and then I have a right to show that I do not +misapply it, When he undertakes to say that because I think this +nation, so far as the question of slavery is concerned, will all +become one thing or all the other, I am in favor of bringing +about a dead uniformity in the various States, in all their +institutions, he argues erroneously. The great variety of the +local institutions in the States, springing from differences in +the soil, differences in the face of the country, and in the +climate, are bonds of Union. They do not make "a house divided +against itself," but they make a house united. If they produce +in one section of the country what is called for, by the wants of +another section, and this other section can supply the wants of +the first, they are not matters of discord, but bonds of union, +true bonds of union. But can this question of slavery be +considered as among these varieties in the institutions of the +country? I leave it to you to say whether, in the history of our +government, this institution of slavery has not always failed to +be a bond of union, and, on the contrary, been an apple of +discord and an element of division in the house. I ask you to +consider whether, so long as the moral constitution of men's +minds shall continue to be the same, after this generation and +assemblage shall sink into the grave, and another race shall +arise, with the same moral and intellectual development we have, +whether, if that institution is standing in the same irritating +position in which it now is, it will not continue an element of +division? If so, then I have a right to say that, in regard to +this question, the Union is a house divided against itself; and +when the Judge reminds me that I have often said to him that the +institution of slavery has existed for eighty years in some +States, and yet it does not exist in some others, I agree to the +fact, and I account for it by looking at the position in which +our fathers originally placed it--restricting it from the new +Territories where it had not gone, and legislating to cut off its +source by the abrogation of the slave trade, thus putting the +seal of legislation against its spread. The public mind did rest +in the belief that it was in the course of ultimate extinction. +But lately, I think--and in this I charge nothing on the Judge's +motives--lately, I think that he, and those acting with him, have +placed that institution on a new basis, which looks to the +perpetuity and nationalization of slavery. And while it is +placed upon this new basis, I say, and I have said, that I +believe we shall not have peace upon the question until the +opponents of slavery arrest the further spread of it, and place +it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in +the course of ultimate extinction; or, on the other hand, that +its advocates will push it forward until it shall become alike +lawful in all the States, old as well as new, North as well as +South. Now, I believe if we could arrest the spread, and place +it where Washington and Jefferson and Madison placed it, it would +be in the course of ultimate extinction, and the public mind +would, as for eighty years past, believe that it was in the +course of ultimate extinction. The crisis would be past, and the +institution might be let alone for a hundred years, if it should +live so long, in the States where it exists; yet it would be +going out of existence in the way best for both the black and the +white races. + +[A voice: "Then do you repudiate popular sovereignty?"] + +Well, then, let us talk about popular sovereignty! what is +popular sovereignty? Is it the right of the people to have +slavery or not have it, as they see fit, in the Territories? I +will state--and I have an able man to watch me--my understanding +is that popular sovereignty, as now applied to the question of +slavery, does allow the people of a Territory to have slavery if +they want to, but does not allow them not to have it if they do +not want it. I do not mean that if this vast concourse of people +were in a Territory of the United States, any one of them would +be obliged to have a slave if he did not want one; but I do say +that, as I understand the Dred Scott decision, if any one man +wants slaves, all the rest have no way of keeping that one man +from holding them. + +When I made my speech at Springfield, of which the Judge +complains, and from which he quotes, I really was not thinking of +the things which he ascribes to me at all. I had no thought in +the world that I was doing anything to bring about a war between +the free and slave states. I had no thought in the world that I +was doing anything to bring about a political and social equality +of the black and white races. It never occurred to me that I was +doing anything or favoring anything to reduce to a dead +uniformity all the local institutions of the various States. But +I must say, in all fairness to him, if he thinks I am doing +something which leads to these bad results, it is none the better +that I did not mean it. It is just as fatal to the country, if I +have any influence in producing it, whether I intend it or not. +But can it be true that placing this institution upon the +original basis--the basis upon which our fathers placed it--can +have any tendency to set the Northern and the Southern States at +war with one another, or that it can have any tendency to make +the people of Vermont raise sugar-cane, because they raise it in +Louisiana, or that it can compel the people of Illinois to cut +pine logs on the Grand Prairie, where they will not grow, because +they cut pine logs in Maine, where they do grow? The Judge says +this is a new principle started in regard to this question. Does +the Judge claim that he is working on the plan of the founders of +government? I think he says in some of his speeches indeed, I +have one here now--that he saw evidence of a policy to allow +slavery to be south of a certain line, while north of it it +should be excluded, and he saw an indisposition on the part of +the country to stand upon that policy, and therefore he set about +studying the subject upon original principles, and upon original +principles he got up the Nebraska Bill! I am fighting it upon +these "original principles, fighting it in the Jeffersonian, +Washingtonian, and Madisonian fashion. + +Now, my friends, I wish you to attend for a little while to one +or two other things in that Springfield speech. My main object +was to show, so far as my humble ability was capable of showing, +to the people of this country what I believed was the truth,-- +that there was a tendency, if not a conspiracy, among those who +have engineered this slavery question for the last four or five +years, to make slavery perpetual and universal in this nation. +Having made that speech principally for that object, after +arranging the evidences that I thought tended to prove my +proposition, I concluded with this bit of comment: + +"We cannot absolutely know that these exact adaptations are the +result of preconcert; but when we see a lot of framed timbers, +different portions of which we know have been gotten out at +different times and places, and by different workmen--Stephen, +Franklin, Roger, and James, for instance,--and when we see these +timbers joined together, and see they exactly make the frame of a +house or a mill, all the tenons and mortises exactly fitting, and +all the lengths and proportions of the different pieces exactly +adapted to their respective places, and not a piece too many or +too few,--not omitting even the scaffolding,--or if a single +piece be lacking, we see the place in the frame exactly fitted +and prepared yet to bring such piece in,--in such a case we feel +it impossible not to believe that Stephen and Franklin and Roger +and James all understood one another from the beginning, and all +worked upon a common plan or draft drawn before the first blow +was struck." + +When my friend Judge Douglas came to Chicago on the 9th of July, +this speech having been delivered on the 16th of June, he made an +harangue there, in which he took hold of this speech of mine, +showing that he had carefully read it; and while he paid no +attention to this matter at all, but complimented me as being a +"kind, amiable, and intelligent gentleman," notwithstanding I had +said this, he goes on and eliminates, or draws out, from my +speech this tendency of mine to set the States at war with one +another, to make all the institutions uniform, and set the +niggers and white people to marrying together. Then, as the +Judge had complimented me with these pleasant titles (I must +confess to my weakness), I was a little "taken," for it came from +a great man. I was not very much accustomed to flattery, and it +came the sweeter to me. I was rather like the Hoosier, with the +gingerbread, when he said he reckoned he loved it better than any +other man, and got less of it. As the Judge had so flattered me, +I could not make up my mind that he meant to deal unfairly with +me; so I went to work to show him that he misunderstood the whole +scope of my speech, and that I really never intended to set the +people at war with one another. As an illustration, the next +time I met him, which was at Springfield, I used this expression, +that I claimed no right under the Constitution, nor had I any +inclination, to enter into the slave States and interfere with +the institutions of slavery. He says upon that: Lincoln will not +enter into the slave States, but will go to the banks of the +Ohio, on this side, and shoot over! He runs on, step by step, in +the horse-chestnut style of argument, until in the Springfield +speech he says: "Unless he shall be successful in firing his +batteries until he shall have extinguished slavery in all the +States the Union shall be dissolved." Now, I don't think that +was exactly the way to treat "a kind, amiable, intelligent +gentleman." I know if I had asked the Judge to show when or +where it was I had said that, if I didn't succeed in firing into +the slave States until slavery should be extinguished, the Union +should be dissolved, he could not have shown it. I understand +what he would do. He would say: I don't mean to quote from you, +but this was the result of what you say. But I have the right to +ask, and I do ask now, Did you not put it in such a form that an +ordinary reader or listener would take it as an expression from +me? + +In a speech at Springfield, on the night of the 17th, I thought I +might as well attend to my own business a little, and I recalled +his attention as well as I could to this charge of conspiracy to +nationalize slavery. I called his attention to the fact that he +had acknowledged in my hearing twice that he had carefully read +the speech, and, in the language of the lawyers, as he had twice +read the speech, and still had put in no plea or answer, I took a +default on him. I insisted that I had a right then to renew that +charge of conspiracy. Ten days afterward I met the Judge at +Clinton,--that is to say, I was on the ground, but not in the +discussion,--and heard him make a speech. Then he comes in with +his plea to this charge, for the first time; and his plea when +put in, as well as I can recollect it, amounted to this: that he +never had any talk with Judge Taney or the President of the +United States with regard to the Dred Scott decision before it +was made. I (Lincoln) ought to know that the man who makes a +charge without knowing it to be true falsifies as much as he who +knowingly tells a falsehood; and, lastly, that he would pronounce +the whole thing a falsehood; but, he would make no personal +application of the charge of falsehood, not because of any regard +for the "kind, amiable, intelligent gentleman," but because of +his own personal self-respect! I have understood since then (but +[turning to Judge Douglas] will not hold the Judge to it if he is +not willing) that he has broken through the "self-respect," and +has got to saying the thing out. The Judge nods to me that it is +so. It is fortunate for me that I can keep as good-humored as I +do, when the Judge acknowledges that he has been trying to make a +question of veracity with me. I know the Judge is a great man, +while I am only a small man, but I feel that I have got him. I +demur to that plea. I waive all objections that it was not filed +till after default was taken, and demur to it upon the merits. +What if Judge Douglas never did talk with Chief Justice Taney and +the President before the Dred Scott decision was made, does it +follow that he could not have had as perfect an understanding +without talking as with it? I am not disposed to stand upon my +legal advantage. I am disposed to take his denial as being like +an answer in chancery, that he neither had any knowledge, +information, or belief in the existence of such a conspiracy. I +am disposed to take his answer as being as broad as though he had +put it in these words. And now, I ask, even if he had done so, +have not I a right to prove it on him, and to offer the evidence +of more than two witnesses, by whom to prove it; and if the +evidence proves the existence of the conspiracy, does his broader +answer denying all knowledge, information, or belief, disturb the +fact? It can only show that he was used by conspirators, and was +not a leader of them. + +Now, in regard to his reminding me of the moral rule that persons +who tell what they do not know to be true falsify as much as +those who knowingly tell falsehoods. I remember the rule, and it +must be borne in mind that in what I have read to you, I do not +say that I know such a conspiracy to exist. To that I reply, I +believe it. If the Judge says that I do not believe it, then he +says what he does not know, and falls within his own rule, that +he who asserts a thing which he does not know to be true, +falsifies as much as he who knowingly tells a falsehood. I want +to call your attention to a little discussion on that branch of +the case, and the evidence which brought my mind to the +conclusion which I expressed as my belief. If, in arraying that +evidence I had stated anything which was false or erroneous, it +needed but that Judge Douglas should point it out, and I would +have taken it back, with all the kindness in the world. I do not +deal in that way. If I have brought forward anything not a fact, +if he will point it out, it will not even ruffle me to take it +back. But if he will not point out anything erroneous in the +evidence, is it not rather for him to show, by a comparison of +the evidence, that I have reasoned falsely, than to call the +"kind, amiable, intelligent gentleman" a liar? If I have +reasoned to a false conclusion, it is the vocation of an able +debater to show by argument that I have wandered to an erroneous +conclusion. I want to ask your attention to a portion of the +Nebraska Bill, which Judge Douglas has quoted: + + "It being the true intent and meaning of this Act, not to +legislate slavery into any Territory or State, nor to exclude it +therefrom, but to leave the people thereof perfectly free to form +and regulate their domestic institutions in their own way, +subject only to the Constitution of the United States." + +Thereupon Judge Douglas and others began to argue in favor of +"popular sovereignty," the right of the people to have slaves if +they wanted them, and to exclude slavery if they did not want +them. "But," said, in substance, a Senator from Ohio (Mr. Chase, +I believe), + +"we more than suspect that you do not mean to allow the people to +exclude slavery if they wish to; and if you do mean it, accept an +amendment which I propose, expressly authorizing the people to +exclude slavery." + +I believe I have the amendment here before me, which was offered, +and under which the people of the Territory, through their +representatives, might, if they saw fit, prohibit the existence +of slavery therein. And now I state it as a fact, to be taken +back if there is any mistake about it, that Judge Douglas and +those acting with him voted that amendment down. I now think +that those men who voted it down had a real reason for doing so. +They know what that reason was. It looks to us, since we have +seen the Dred Scott decision pronounced, holding that "under the +Constitution" the people cannot exclude slavery, I say it looks +to outsiders, poor, simple, "amiable, intelligent gentlemen," as +though the niche was left as a place to put that Dred Scott +decision in,--a niche which would have been spoiled by adopting +the amendment. And now, I say again, if this was not the reason, +it will avail the Judge much more to calmly and good-humoredly +point out to these people what that other reason was for voting +the amendment down, than, swelling himself up, to vociferate that +he may be provoked to call somebody a liar. + +Again: There is in that same quotation from the Nebraska Bill +this clause: "It being the true intent and meaning of this bill +not to legislate slavery into any Territory or State." I have +always been puzzled to know what business the word "State" had in +that connection. Judge Douglas knows. He put it there. He +knows what he put it there for. We outsiders cannot say what he +put it there for. The law they were passing was not about +States, and was not making provisions for States. What was it +placed there for? After seeing the Dred Scott decision, which +holds that the people cannot exclude slavery from a Territory, if +another Dred Scott decision shall come, holding that they cannot +exclude it from a State, we shall discover that when the word was +originally put there, it was in view of something which was to +come in due time, we shall see that it was the other half of +something. I now say again, if there is any different reason for +putting it there, Judge Douglas, in a good-humored way, without +calling anybody a liar, can tell what the reason was. + +When the Judge spoke at Clinton, he came very near making a +charge of falsehood against me. He used, as I found it printed +in a newspaper, which, I remember, was very nearly like the real +speech, the following language: + +"I did not answer the charge [of conspiracy] before, for the +reason that I did not suppose there was a man in America with a +heart so corrupt as to believe such a charge could be true. I +have too much respect for Mr. Lincoln to suppose he is serious in +making the charge." + +I confess this is rather a curious view, that out of respect for +me he should consider I was making what I deemed rather a grave +charge in fun. I confess it strikes me rather strangely. But I +let it pass. As the Judge did not for a moment believe that +there was a man in America whose heart was so "corrupt" as to +make such a charge, and as he places me among the "men in +America" who have hearts base enough to make such a charge, I +hope he will excuse me if I hunt out another charge very like +this; and if it should turn out that in hunting I should find +that other, and it should turn out to be Judge Douglas himself +who made it, I hope he will reconsider this question of the deep +corruption of heart he has thought fit to ascribe to me. In +Judge Douglas's speech of March 22, 1858, which I hold in my +hand, he says: + +"In this connection there is another topic to which I desire to +allude. I seldom refer to the course of newspapers, or notice +the articles which they publish in regard to myself; but the +course of the Washington Union has been so extraordinary for the +last two or three months, that I think it well enough to make +some allusion to it. It has read me out of the Democratic party +every other day, at least for two or three months, and keeps +reading me out, and, as if it had not succeeded, still continues +to read me out, using such terms as 'traitor,' 'renegade,' +'deserter,' and other kind and polite epithets of that nature. +Sir, I have no vindication to make of my Democracy against the +Washington Union, or any other newspapers. I am willing to allow +my history and action for the last twenty years to speak for +themselves as to my political principles and my fidelity to +political obligations. The Washington Union has a personal +grievance. When its editor was nominated for public printer, I +declined to vote for him, and stated that at some time I might +give my reasons for doing so. Since I declined to give that +vote, this scurrilous abuse, these vindictive and constant +attacks have been repeated almost daily on me. Will any friend +from Michigan read the article to which I allude?" + +This is a part of the speech. You must excuse me from reading +the entire article of the Washington Union, as Mr. Stuart read it +for Mr. Douglas. The Judge goes on and sums up, as I think, +correctly: + +"Mr. President, you here find several distinct propositions +advanced boldly by the Washington Union editorially, and +apparently authoritatively; and any man who questions any of them +is denounced as an Abolitionist, a Free-soiler, a fanatic. The +propositions are, first, that the primary object of all +government at its original institution is the protection of +person and property; second, that the Constitution of the United +States declares that the citizens of each State shall be entitled +to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several +States; and that, therefore, thirdly, all State laws, whether +organic or otherwise, which prohibit the citizens of one State +from settling in another with their slave property, and +especially declaring it forfeited, are direct violations of the +original intention of the government and Constitution of the +United States; and, fourth, that the emancipation of the slaves +of the Northern States was a gross outrage of the rights of +property, inasmuch as it was involuntarily done on the part of +the owner. + +"Remember that this article was published in the Union on the +17th of November, and on the 18th appeared the first article +giving the adhesion of the Union, to the Lecompton Constitution. +It was in these words: + +"KANSAS AND HER CONSTITUTION.--The vexed question is settled. +The problem is saved. The dead point of danger is passed. All +serious trouble to Kansas affairs is over and gone ..." + +And a column nearly of the same sort. Then, when you come to +look into the Lecompton Constitution, you find the same doctrine +incorporated in it which was put forth editorially in the Union. +What is it? + +"ARTICLE 7, Section I. The right of property is before and +higher than any constitutional sanction; and the right of the +owner of a slave to such slave and its increase is the same and +as inviolable as the right of the owner of any property +whatever." + +Then in the schedule is a provision that the Constitution may be +amended after 1864 by a two-thirds vote: + +"But no alteration shall be made to affect the right of property +in the ownership of slaves." + +"It will be seen by these clauses in the Lecompton Constitution +that they are identical in spirit with the authoritative article +in the Washington Union of the day previous to its indorsement of +this Constitution." + +I pass over some portions of the speech, and I hope that any one +who feels interested in this matter will read the entire section +of the speech, and see whether I do the Judge injustice. He +proceeds: + +"When I saw that article in the Union of the 17th of November, +followed by the glorification of the Lecompton Constitution on +the 10th of November, and this clause in the Constitution +asserting the doctrine that a State has no right to prohibit +slavery within its limits, I saw that there was a fatal blow +being struck at the sovereignty of the States of this Union." + +I stop the quotation there, again requesting that it may all be +read. I have read all of the portion I desire to comment upon. +What is this charge that the Judge thinks I must have a very +corrupt heart to make? It was a purpose on the part of certain +high functionaries to make it impossible for the people of one +State to prohibit the people of any other State from entering it +with their "property," so called, and making it a slave State. +In other words, it was a charge implying a design to make the +institution of slavery national. And now I ask your attention to +what Judge Douglas has himself done here. I know he made that +part of the speech as a reason why he had refused to vote for a +certain man for public printer; but when we get at it, the charge +itself is the very one I made against him, that he thinks I am so +corrupt for uttering. Now, whom does he make that charge +against? Does he make it against that newspaper editor merely? +No; he says it is identical in spirit with the Lecompton +Constitution, and so the framers of that Constitution are brought +in with the editor of the newspaper in that "fatal blow being +struck." He did not call it a "conspiracy." In his language, it +is a "fatal blow being struck." And if the words carry the +meaning better when changed from a "conspiracy" into a "fatal +blow being struck, "I will change my expression, and call it +"fatal blow being struck." We see the charge made not merely +against the editor of the Union, but all the framers of the +Lecompton Constitution; and not only so, but the article was an +authoritative article. By whose authority? Is there any +question but he means it was by the authority of the President +and his Cabinet,--the Administration? + +Is there any sort of question but he means to make that charge? +Then there are the editors of the Union, the framers of the +Lecompton Constitution, the President of the United States and +his Cabinet, and all the supporters of the Lecompton +Constitution, in Congress and out of Congress, who are all +involved in this "fatal blow being struck." I commend to Judge +Douglas's consideration the question of how corrupt a man's heart +must be to make such a charge! + +Now, my friends, I have but one branch of the subject, in the +little time I have left, to which to call your attention; and as +I shall come to a close at the end of that branch, it is probable +that I shall not occupy quite all the time allotted to me. +Although on these questions I would like to talk twice as long as +I have, I could not enter upon another head and discuss it +properly without running over my time. I ask the attention of +the people here assembled and elsewhere to the course that Judge +Douglas is pursuing every day as bearing upon this question of +making slavery national. Not going back to the records, but +taking the speeches he makes, the speeches he made yesterday and +day before, and makes constantly all over the country, I ask your +attention to them. In the first place, what is necessary to make +the institution national? Not war. There is no danger that the +people of Kentucky will shoulder their muskets, and, with a young +nigger stuck on every bayonet, march into Illinois and force them +upon us. There is no danger of our going over there and making +war upon them. Then what is necessary for the nationalization of +slavery? It is simply the next Dred Scott decision. It is +merely for the Supreme Court to decide that no State under the +Constitution can exclude it, just as they have already decided +that under the Constitution neither Congress nor the Territorial +Legislature can do it. When that is decided and acquiesced in, +the whole thing is done. This being true, and this being the +way, as I think, that slavery is to be made national, let us +consider what Judge Douglas is doing every day to that end. In +the first place, let us see what influence he is exerting on +public sentiment. In this and like communities, public sentiment +is everything. With public sentiment, nothing can fail; without +it, nothing can succeed. Consequently, he who moulds public +sentiment goes deeper than he who enacts statutes or pronounces +decisions. He makes statutes and decisions possible or +impossible to be executed. This must be borne in mind, as also +the additional fact that Judge Douglas is a man of vast +influence, so great that it is enough for many men to profess to +believe anything when they once find out Judge Douglas professes +to believe it. Consider also the attitude he occupies at the +head of a large party,--a party which he claims has a majority of +all the voters in the country. This man sticks to a decision +which forbids the people of a Territory from excluding slavery, +and he does so, not because he says it is right in itself,--he +does not give any opinion on that,--but because it has been +decided by the court; and being decided by the court, he is, and +you are, bound to take it in your political action as law, not +that he judges at all of its merits, but because a decision of +the court is to him a "Thus saith the Lord." He places it on +that ground alone; and you will bear in mind that thus committing +himself unreservedly to this decision commits him to the next one +just as firmly as to this. He did not commit himself on account +of the merit or demerit of the decision, but it is a "Thus saith +the Lord." The next decision, as much as this, will be a "Thus +saith the Lord." There is nothing that can divert or turn him +away from this decision. It is nothing that I point out to him +that his great prototype, General Jackson, did not believe in the +binding force of decisions. It is nothing to him that Jefferson +did not so believe. I have said that I have often heard him +approve of Jackson's course in disregarding the decision of the +Supreme Court pronouncing a National Bank constitutional. He +says I did not hear him say so. He denies the accuracy of my +recollection. I say he ought to know better than I, but I will +make no question about this thing, though it still seems to me +that I heard him say it twenty times. I will tell him, though, +that he now claims to stand on the Cincinnati platform, which +affirms that Congress cannot charter a National Bank, in the +teeth of that old standing decision that Congress can charter a +bank. And I remind him of another piece of history on the +question of respect for judicial decisions, and it is a piece of +Illinois history belonging to a time when the large party to +which Judge Douglas belonged were displeased with a decision of +the Supreme Court of Illinois, because they had decided that a +Governor could not remove a Secretary of State. You will find +the whole story in Ford's History of Illinois, and I know that +Judge Douglas will not deny that he was then in favor of over- +slaughing that decision by the mode of adding five new judges, so +as to vote down the four old ones. Not only so, but it ended in +the Judge's sitting down on that very bench as one of the five +new judges to break down the four old ones It was in this way +precisely that he got his title of judge. Now, when the Judge +tells me that men appointed conditionally to sit as members of a +court will have to be catechized beforehand upon some subject, I +say, "You know, Judge; you have tried it." When he says a court +of this kind will lose the confidence of all men, will be +prostituted and disgraced by such a proceeding, I say, "You know +best, Judge; you have been through the mill." But I cannot shake +Judge Douglas's teeth loose from the Dred Scott decision. Like +some obstinate animal (I mean no disrespect) that will hang on +when he has once got his teeth fixed, you may cut off a leg, or +you may tear away an arm, still he will not relax his hold. And +so I may point out to the Judge, and say that he is bespattered +all over, from the beginning of his political life to the present +time, with attacks upon judicial decisions; I may cut off limb +after limb of his public record, and strive to wrench him from a +single dictum of the court,--yet I cannot divert him from it. He +hangs, to the last, to the Dred Scott decision. These things +show there is a purpose strong as death and eternity for which he +adheres to this decision, and for which he will adhere to all +other decisions of the same court. + +[A HIBERNIAN: "Give us something besides Dred Scott."] + +Yes; no doubt you want to hear something that don't hurt. Now, +having spoken of the Dred Scott decision, one more word, and I am +done. Henry Clay, my beau-ideal of a statesman, the man for whom +I fought all my humble life, Henry Clay once said of a class of +men who would repress all tendencies to liberty and ultimate +emancipation that they must, if they would do this, go back to +the era of our Independence, and muzzle the cannon which thunders +its annual joyous return; they must blow out the moral lights +around us; they must penetrate the human soul, and eradicate +there the love of liberty; and then, and not till then, could +they perpetuate slavery in this country! To my thinking, Judge +Douglas is, by his example and vast influence, doing that very +thing in this community, when he says that the negro has nothing +in the Declaration of Independence. Henry Clay plainly +understood the contrary. Judge Douglas is going back to the era +of our Revolution, and, to the extent of his ability, muzzling +the cannon which thunders its annual joyous return. When he +invites any people, willing to have slavery, to establish it, he +is blowing out the moral lights around us. When he says he +"cares not whether slavery is voted down or up,"--that it is a +sacred right of self-government,--he is, in my judgment, +penetrating the human soul and eradicating the light of reason +and the love of liberty in this American people. And now I will +only say that when, by all these means and appliances, Judge +Douglas shall succeed in bringing public sentiment to an exact +accordance with his own views; when these vast assemblages shall +echo back all these sentiments; when they shall come to repeat +his views and to avow his principles, and to say all that he says +on these mighty questions,--then it needs only the formality of +the second Dred Scott decision, which he indorses in advance, to +make slavery alike lawful in all the States, old as well as new, +North as well as South. + +My friends, that ends the chapter. The Judge can take his +half-hour. + + + + +SECOND JOINT DEBATE, AT FREEPORT, + +AUGUST 27, 1858 + +LADIES AND GENTLEMEN:--On Saturday last, Judge Douglas and myself +first met in public discussion. He spoke one hour, I an hour and +a half, and he replied for half an hour. The order is now +reversed. I am to speak an hour, he an hour and a half, and then +I am to reply for half an hour. I propose to devote myself +during the first hour to the scope of what was brought within the +range of his half-hour speech at Ottawa. Of course there was +brought within the scope in that half-hour's speech something of +his own opening speech. In the course of that opening argument +Judge Douglas proposed to me seven distinct interrogatories. In +my speech of an hour and a half, I attended to some other parts +of his speech, and incidentally, as I thought, intimated to him +that I would answer the rest of his interrogatories on condition +only that he should agree to answer as many for me. He made no +intimation at the time of the proposition, nor did he in his +reply allude at all to that suggestion of mine. I do him no +injustice in saying that he occupied at least half of his reply +in dealing with me as though I had refused to answer his +interrogatories. I now propose that I will answer any of the +interrogatories, upon condition that he will answer questions +from me not exceeding the same number. I give him an opportunity +to respond. + +The Judge remains silent. I now say that I will answer his +interrogatories, whether he answers mine or not; and that after I +have done so, I shall propound mine to him. + +I have supposed myself, since the organization of the Republican +party at Bloomington, in May, 1856, bound as a party man by the +platforms of the party, then and since. If in any +interrogatories which I +shall answer I go beyond the scope of what is within these +platforms, it will be perceived that no one is responsible but +myself. + +Having said thus much, I will take up the Judge's interrogatories +as I find them printed in the Chicago Times, and answer them +seriatim. In order that there may be no mistake about it, I have +copied the interrogatories in writing, and also my answers to +them. The first one of these interrogatories is in these words: + +Question 1.--"I desire to know whether Lincoln to-day stands, as +he did in 1854, in favor of the unconditional repeal of the +Fugitive Slave law?" Answer:--I do not now, nor ever did, stand +in favor of the unconditional repeal of the Fugitive Slave law. + +Q. 2.--"I desire him to answer whether he stands pledged to-day, +as he did in 1854, against the admission of any more slave States +into the Union, even if the people want them?" Answer:--I do not +now, nor ever did, stand pledged against the admission of any +more slave States into the Union. + +Q. 3.--"I want to know whether he stands pledged against the +admission of a new State into the Union with such a constitution +as the people of that State may see fit to make?" Answer:--I do +not stand pledged against the admission of a new State into the +Union, with such a constitution as the people of that State may +see fit to make. + +Q. 4.--"I want to know whether he stands to-day pledged to the +abolition of slavery in the District of Columbia?" Answer:--I do +not stand to-day pledged to the abolition of slavery in the +District of Columbia. + +Q. 5.--"I desire him to answer whether he stands pledged to the +prohibition of the slave-trade between the different States?" +Answer:--I do not stand pledged to the prohibition of the +slave-trade between the different States. + +Q. 6.--I desire to know whether he stands pledged to prohibit +slavery in all the Territories of the United States, north as +well as south of the Missouri Compromise line?" Answer:--I am +impliedly, if not expressly, pledged to a belief in the right and +duty of Congress to prohibit slavery in all the United States +'Territories. + +Q. 7. --"I desire him to answer whether he is opposed to the +acquisition of any new territory unless slavery is first +prohibited therein?" Answer:--I am not generally opposed to +honest acquisition of territory; and, in any given case, I would +or would not oppose such acquisition, accordingly as I might +think such acquisition would or would not aggravate the slavery +question among ourselves. + +Now, my friends, it will be perceived, upon an examination of +these questions and answers, that so far I have only answered +that I was not pledged to this, that, or the other. The Judge +has not framed his interrogatories to ask me anything more than +this, and I have answered in strict accordance with the +interrogatories, and have answered truly, that I am not pledged +at all upon any of the points to which I have answered. But I am +not disposed to hang upon the exact form of his interrogatory. I +am rather disposed to take up at least some of these questions, +and state what I really think upon them. + +As to the first one, in regard to the Fugitive Slave law, I have +never hesitated to say, and I do not now hesitate to say, that I +think, under the Constitution of the United States, the people of +the Southern States are entitled to a Congressional Fugitive +Slave law. Having said that, I have had nothing to say in regard +to the existing Fugitive Slave law, further than that I think it +should have been framed so as to be free from some of the +objections that pertain to it, without lessening its efficiency. +And inasmuch as we are not now in an agitation in regard to an +alteration or modification of that law, I would not be the man to +introduce it as a new subject of agitation upon the general +question of slavery. + +In regard to the other question, of whether I am pledged to the +admission of any more slave States into the Union, I state to you +very frankly that I would be exceedingly sorry ever to be put in +a position of having to pass upon that question. I should be +exceedingly glad to know that there would never be another slave +State admitted into the Union; but I must add that if slavery +shall be kept out of the Territories during the territorial +existence of any one given Territory, and then the people shall, +having a fair chance and a clear field, when they come to adopt +the constitution, do such an extraordinary thing as to adopt a +slave constitution, uninfluenced by the actual presence of the +institution among them, I see no alternative, if we own the +country, but to admit them into the Union. + +The third interrogatory is answered by the answer to the second, +it being, as I conceive, the same as the second. + +The fourth one is in regard to the abolition of slavery in the +District of Columbia. In relation to that, I have my mind very +distinctly made up. I should be exceedingly glad to see slavery +abolished in the District of Columbia. I believe that Congress +possesses the constitutional power to abolish it. Yet as a +member of Congress, I should not, with my present views, be in +favor of endeavoring to abolish slavery in the District of +Columbia, unless it would be upon these conditions: First, that +the abolition should be gradual; second, that it should be on a +vote of the majority of qualified voters in the District; and +third, that compensation should be made to unwilling owners. +With these three conditions, I confess I would be exceedingly +glad to see Congress abolish slavery in the District of Columbia, +and, in the language of Henry Clay, "sweep from our capital that +foul blot upon our nation." + +In regard to the fifth interrogatory, I must say here that, as to +the question of the abolition of the slave-trade between the +different States, I can truly answer, as I have, that I am +pledged to nothing about it. It is a subject to which I have not +given that mature consideration that would make me feel +authorized to state a position so as to hold myself entirely +bound by it. In other words, that question has never been +prominently enough before me to induce me to investigate whether +we really have the constitutional power to do it. I could +investigate it if I had sufficient time to bring myself to a +conclusion upon that subject; but I have not done so, and I say +so frankly to you here, and to Judge Douglas. I must say, +however, that if I should be of opinion that Congress does +possess the constitutional power to abolish the slave-trade among +the different States, I should still not be in favor of the +exercise of that power, unless upon some conservative principle +as I conceive it, akin to what I have said in relation to the +abolition of slavery in the District of Columbia. + +My answer as to whether I desire that slavery should be +prohibited in all the Territories of the United States is full +and explicit within itself, and cannot be made clearer by any +comments of mine. So I suppose in regard to the question whether +I am opposed to the acquisition of any more territory unless +slavery is first prohibited therein, my answer is such that I +could add nothing by way of illustration, or making myself better +understood, than the answer which I have placed in writing. + +Now in all this the Judge has me, and he has me on the record. I +suppose he had flattered himself that I was really entertaining +one set of opinions for one place, and another set for another +place; that I was afraid to say at one place what I uttered at +another. What I am saying here I suppose I say to a vast +audience as strongly tending to Abolitionism as any audience in +the State of Illinois, and I believe I am saying that which, if +it would be offensive to any persons and render them enemies to +myself, would be offensive to persons in this +audience. + +I now proceed to propound to the Judge the interrogatories, so +far as I have framed them. I will bring forward a new +installment when I get them ready. I will bring them forward now +only reaching to number four. +The first one is: + +Question 1.--If the people of Kansas shall, by means entirely +unobjectionable in all other respects, adopt a State +constitution, and ask admission into the Union under it, before +they have the requisite number of inhabitants according to the +English bill,--some ninety-three thousand,--will you vote to +admit them? + +Q. 2.--Can the people of a United States Territory, in any +lawful way, against the wish of any citizen of the United States, +exclude slavery from its limits prior to the formation of a State +constitution? + +Q. 3. If the Supreme Court of the United States shall decide +that States cannot exclude slavery from their limits, are you in +favor of acquiescing in, adopting, and following such decision as +a rule of political action? + +Q. 4. Are you in favor of acquiring additional territory, in +disregard of how such acquisition may affect the nation on the +slavery question? + +As introductory to these interrogatories which Judge Douglas +propounded to me at Ottawa, he read a set of resolutions which he +said Judge Trumbull and myself had participated in adopting, in +the first Republican State Convention, held at Springfield in +October, 1854. He insisted that I and Judge Trumbull, and +perhaps the entire Republican party, were responsible for the +doctrines contained in the set of resolutions which he read, and +I understand that it was from that set of resolutions that he +deduced the interrogatories which he propounded to me, using +these resolutions as a sort of authority for propounding those +questions to me. Now, I say here to-day that I do not answer his +interrogatories because of their springing at all from that set +of resolutions which he read. I answered them because Judge +Douglas thought fit to ask them. I do not now, nor ever did, +recognize any responsibility upon myself in that set of +resolutions. When I replied to him on that occasion, I assured +him that I never had anything to do with them. I repeat here to +today that I never in any possible form had anything to do with +that set of resolutions It turns out, I believe, that those +resolutions were never passed in any convention held in +Springfield. + +It turns out that they were never passed at any convention or any +public meeting that I had any part in. I believe it turns out, +in addition to all this, that there was not, in the fall of 1854, +any convention holding a session in Springfield, calling itself a +Republican State Convention; yet it is true there was a +convention, or assemblage of men calling themselves a convention, +at Springfield, that did pass some resolutions. But so little +did I really know of the proceedings of that convention, or what +set of resolutions they had passed, though having a general +knowledge that there had been such an assemblage of men there, +that when Judge Douglas read the resolutions, I really did not +know but they had been the resolutions passed then and there. I +did not question that they were the resolutions adopted. For I +could not bring myself to suppose that Judge Douglas could say +what he did upon this subject without knowing that it was true. +I contented myself, on that occasion, with denying, as I truly +could, all connection with them, not denying or affirming whether +they were passed at Springfield. Now, it turns out that he had +got hold of some resolutions passed at some convention or public +meeting in Kane County. I wish to say here, that I don't +conceive that in any fair and just mind this discovery relieves +me at all. I had just as much to do with the convention in Kane +County as that at Springfield. I am as much responsible for the +resolutions at Kane County as those at Springfield,--the amount +of the responsibility being exactly nothing in either case; no +more than there would be in regard to a set of resolutions passed +in the moon. + +I allude to this extraordinary matter in this canvass for some +further purpose than anything yet advanced. Judge Douglas did +not make his statement upon that occasion as matters that he +believed to be true, but he stated them roundly as being true, in +such form as to pledge his veracity for their truth. When the +whole matter turns out as it does, and when we consider who Judge +Douglas is, that he is a distinguished Senator of the United +States; that he has served nearly twelve years as such; that his +character is not at all limited as an ordinary Senator of the +United States, but that his name has become of world-wide +renown,--it is most extraordinary that he should so far forget +all the suggestions of justice to an adversary, or of prudence to +himself, as to venture upon the assertion of that which the +slightest investigation would have shown him to be wholly false. +I can only account for his having done so upon the supposition +that that evil genius which has attended him through his life, +giving to him an apparent astonishing prosperity, such as to lead +very many good men to doubt there being any advantage in virtue +over vice,--I say I can only account for it on the supposition +that that evil genius has as last made up its mind to forsake +him. + +And I may add that another extraordinary feature of the Judge's +conduct in this canvass--made more extraordinary by this +incident--is, that he is in the habit, in almost all the speeches +he makes, of charging falsehood upon his adversaries, myself and +others. I now ask whether he is able to find in anything that +Judge Trumbull, for instance, has said, or in anything that I +have said, a justification at all compared with what we have, in +this instance, for that sort of vulgarity. + +I have been in the habit of charging as a matter of belief on my +part that, in the introduction of the Nebraska Bill into +Congress, there was a conspiracy to make slavery perpetual and +national. I have arranged from time to time the evidence which +establishes and proves the truth of this charge. I recurred to +this charge at Ottawa. I shall not now have time to dwell upon +it at very great length; but inasmuch as Judge Douglas, in his +reply of half an hour, made some points upon me in relation to +it, I propose noticing a few of them. + +The Judge insists that, in the first speech I made, in which I +very distinctly made that charge, he thought for a good while I +was in fun! that I was playful; that I was not sincere about it; +and that he only grew angry and somewhat excited when he found +that I insisted upon it as a matter of earnestness. He says he +characterized it as a falsehood so far as I implicated his moral +character in that transaction. Well, I did not know, till he +presented that view, that I had implicated his moral character. +He is very much in the habit, when he argues me up into a +position I never thought of occupying, of very cosily saying he +has no doubt Lincoln is "conscientious" in saying so. He should +remember that I did not know but what he was ALTOGETHER +"CONSCIENTIOUS" in that matter. I can conceive it possible for +men to conspire to do a good thing, and I really find nothing in +Judge Douglas's course of arguments that is contrary to or +inconsistent with his belief of a conspiracy to nationalize and +spread slavery as being a good and blessed thing; and so I hope +he will understand that I do not at all question but that in all +this matter he is entirely "conscientious." + +But to draw your attention to one of the points I made in this +case, beginning at the beginning: When the Nebraska Bill was +introduced, or a short time afterward, by an amendment, I +believe, it was provided that it must be considered "the true +intent and meaning of this Act not to legislate slavery into any +State or Territory, or to exclude it therefrom, but to leave the +people thereof perfectly free to form and regulate their own +domestic institutions in their own way, subject only to the +Constitution of the United States." I have called his attention +to the fact that when he and some others began arguing that they +were giving an increased degree of liberty to the people in the +Territories over and above what they formerly had on the question +of slavery, a question was raised whether the law was enacted to +give such unconditional liberty to the people; and to test the +sincerity of this mode of argument, Mr. Chase, of Ohio, +introduced an amendment, in which he made the law--if the +amendment were adopted--expressly declare that the people of the +Territory should have the power to exclude slavery if they saw +fit. I have asked attention also to the fact that Judge Douglas +and those who acted with him voted that amendment down, +notwithstanding it expressed exactly the thing they said was the +true intent and meaning of the law. I have called attention to +the fact that in subsequent times a decision of the Supreme Court +has been made, in which it has been declared that a Territorial +Legislature has no constitutional right to exclude slavery. And +I have argued and said that for men who did, intend that the +people of the Territory should have the right to exclude slavery +absolutely and unconditionally, the voting down of Chase's +amendment is wholly inexplicable. It is a puzzle, a riddle. But +I have said, that with men who did look forward to such a +decision, or who had it in contemplation that such a decision of +the Supreme Court would or might be made, the voting down of that +amendment would be perfectly rational and intelligible. It would +keep Congress from coming in collision with the decision when it +was made. Anybody can conceive that if there was an intention or +expectation that such a decision was to follow, it would not be a +very desirable party attitude to get into for the Supreme Court-- +all or nearly all its members belonging to the same party--to +decide one way, when the party in Congress had decided the other +way. Hence it would be very rational for men expecting such a +decision to keep the niche in that law clear for it. After +pointing this out, I tell Judge Douglas that it looks to me as +though here was the reason why Chase's amendment was voted down. +I tell him that, as he did it, and knows why he did it, if it was +done for a reason different from this, he knows what that reason +was and can tell us what it was. I tell him, also, it will be +vastly more satisfactory to the country for him to give some +other plausible, intelligible reason why it was voted down than +to stand upon his dignity and call people liars. Well, on +Saturday he did make his answer; and what do you think it was? +He says if I had only taken upon myself to tell the whole truth +about that amendment of Chase's, no explanation would have been +necessary on his part or words to that effect. Now, I say here +that I am quite unconscious of having suppressed anything +material to the case, and I am very frank to admit if there is +any sound reason other than that which appeared to me material, +it is quite fair for him to present it. What reason does he +propose? That when Chase came forward with his amendment +expressly authorizing the people to exclude slavery from the +limits of every Territory, General Cass proposed to Chase, if he +(Chase) would add to his amendment that the people should have +the power to introduce or exclude, they would let it go. This is +substantially all of his reply. And because Chase would not do +that, they voted his amendment down. Well, it turns out, I +believe, upon examination, that General Cass took some part in +the little running debate upon that amendment, and then ran away +and did not vote on it at all. Is not that the fact? So +confident, as I think, was General Cass that there was a snake +somewhere about, he chose to run away from the whole thing. This +is an inference I draw from the fact that, though he took part in +the debate, his name does not appear in the ayes and noes. But +does Judge Douglas's reply amount to a satisfactory answer? + +[Cries of "Yes, "Yes," and "No," "No."] + +There is some little difference of opinion here. But I ask +attention to a few more views bearing on the question of whether +it amounts to a satisfactory answer. The men who were determined +that that amendment should not get into the bill, and spoil the +place where the Dred Scott decision was to come in, sought an +excuse to get rid of it somewhere. One of these ways--one of +these excuses--was to ask Chase to add to his proposed amendment +a provision that the people might introduce slavery if they +wanted to. They very well knew Chase would do no such thing, +that Mr. Chase was one of the men differing from them on the +broad principle of his insisting that freedom was better than +slavery,--a man who would not consent to enact a law, penned with +his own hand, by which he was made to recognize slavery on the +one hand, and liberty on the other, as precisely equal; and when +they insisted on his doing this, they very well knew they +insisted on that which he would not for a moment think of doing, +and that they were only bluffing him. I believe (I have not, +since he made his answer, had a chance to examine the journals or +Congressional Globe and therefore speak from memory)--I believe +the state of the bill at that time, according to parliamentary +rules, was such that no member could propose an additional +amendment to Chase's amendment. I rather think this is the +truth,--the Judge shakes his head. Very well. I would like to +know, then, if they wanted Chase's amendment fixed over, why +somebody else could not have offered to do it? If they wanted it +amended, why did they not offer the amendment? Why did they not +put it in themselves? But to put it on the other ground: +suppose that there was such an amendment offered, and Chase's was +an amendment to an amendment; until one is disposed of by +parliamentary law, you cannot pile another on. Then all these +gentlemen had to do was to vote Chase's on, and then, in the +amended form in which the whole stood, add their own amendment to +it, if they wanted to put it in that shape. This was all they +were obliged to do, and the ayes and noes show that there were +thirty-six who voted it down, against ten who voted in favor of +it. The thirty-six held entire sway and control. They could in +some form or other have put that bill in the exact shape they +wanted. If there was a rule preventing their amending it at the +time, they could pass that, and then, Chase's amendment being +merged, put it in the shape they wanted. They did not choose to +do so, but they went into a quibble with Chase to get him to add +what they knew he would not add, and because he would not, they +stand upon the flimsy pretext for voting down what they argued +was the meaning and intent of their own bill. They left room +thereby for this Dred Scott decision, which goes very far to make +slavery national throughout the United States. + +I pass one or two points I have, because my time will very soon +expire; but I must be allowed to say that Judge Douglas recurs +again, as he did upon one or two other occasions, to the enormity +of Lincoln, an insignificant individual like Lincoln,--upon his +ipse dixit charging a conspiracy upon a large number of members +of Congress, the Supreme Court, and two Presidents, to +nationalize slavery. I want to say that, in the first place, I +have made no charge of this sort upon my ipse dixit. I have only +arrayed the evidence tending to prove it, and presented it to the +understanding of others, saying what I think it proves, but +giving you the means of judging whether it proves it or not. +This is precisely what I have done. I have not placed it upon my +ipse dixit at all. On this occasion, I wish to recall his +attention to a piece of evidence which I brought forward at +Ottawa on Saturday, showing that he had made substantially the +same charge against substantially the same persons, excluding his +dear self from the category. I ask him to give some attention to +the evidence which I brought forward that he himself had +discovered a "fatal blow being struck" against the right of the +people to exclude slavery from their limits, which fatal blow he +assumed as in evidence in an article in the Washington Union, +published "by authority." I ask by whose authority? He +discovers a similar or identical provision in the Lecompton +Constitution. Made by whom? The framers of that Constitution. +Advocated by whom? By all the members of the party in the +nation, who advocated the introduction of Kansas into the Union +under the Lecompton Constitution. I have asked his attention to +the evidence that he arrayed to prove that such a fatal blow was +being struck, and to the facts which he brought forward in +support of that charge,--being identical with the one which he +thinks so villainous in me. He pointed it, not at a newspaper +editor merely, but at the President and his Cabinet and the +members of Congress advocating the Lecompton Constitution and +those framing that instrument. I must again be permitted to +remind him that although my ipse dixit may not be as great as +his, yet it somewhat reduces the force of his calling my +attention to the enormity of my making a like charge against him. + +Go on, Judge Douglas. + + + + +Mr. LINCOLN'S REJOINDER. + +MY FRIENDS:--It will readily occur to you that I cannot, in half +an hour, notice all the things that so able a man as Judge +Douglas can say in an hour and a half; and I hope, therefore, if +there be anything that he has said upon which you would like to +hear something from me, but which I omit to comment upon, you +will bear in mind that it would be expecting an impossibility for +me to go over his whole ground. I can but take up some of the +points that he has dwelt upon, and employ my half-hour specially +on them. + +The first thing I have to say to you is a word in regard to Judge +Douglas's declaration about the "vulgarity and blackguardism" in +the audience, that no such thing, as he says, was shown by any +Democrat while I was speaking. Now, I only wish, by way of reply +on this subject, to say that while I was speaking, I used no +"vulgarity or blackguardism" toward any Democrat. + +Now, my friends, I come to all this long portion of the Judge's +speech,--perhaps half of it,--which he has devoted to the various +resolutions and platforms that have been adopted in the different +counties in the different Congressional districts, and in the +Illinois legislature, which he supposes are at variance with the +positions I have assumed before you to-day. It is true that many +of these resolutions are at variance with the positions I have +here assumed. All I have to ask is that we talk reasonably and +rationally about it. I happen to know, the Judge's opinion to +the contrary notwithstanding, that I have never tried to conceal +my opinions, nor tried to deceive any one in reference to them. +He may go and examine all the members who voted for me for United +States Senator in 1855, after the election of 1854. They were +pledged to certain things here at home, and were determined to +have pledges from me; and if he will find any of these persons +who will tell him anything inconsistent with what I say now, I +will resign, or rather retire from the race, and give him no more +trouble. The plain truth is this: At the introduction of the +Nebraska policy, we believed there was a new era being introduced +in the history of the Republic, which tended to the spread and +perpetuation of slavery. But in our opposition to that measure +we did not agree with one another in everything. The people in +the north end of the State were for stronger measures of +opposition than we of the central and southern portions of the +State, but we were all opposed to the Nebraska doctrine. We had +that one feeling and that one sentiment in common. You at the +north end met in your conventions and passed your resolutions. +We in the middle of the State and farther south did not hold such +conventions and pass the same resolutions, although we had in +general a common view and a common sentiment. So that these +meetings which the Judge has alluded to, and the resolutions he +has read from, were local, and did not spread over the whole +State. We at last met together in 1886, from all parts of the +State, and we agreed upon a common platform. You, who held more +extreme notions, either yielded those notions, or, if not wholly +yielding them, agreed to yield them practically, for the sake of +embodying the opposition to the measures which the opposite party +were pushing forward at that time. We met you then, and if there +was anything yielded, it was for practical purposes. We agreed +then upon a platform for the party throughout the entire State of +Illinois, and now we are all bound, as a party, to that platform. + +And I say here to you, if any one expects of me--in case of my +election--that I will do anything not signified by our Republican +platform and my answers here to-day, I tell you very frankly that +person will be deceived. I do not ask for the vote of any one +who supposes that I have secret purposes or pledges that I dare +not speak out. Cannot the Judge be satisfied? If he fears, in +the unfortunate case of my election, that my going to Washington +will enable me to advocate sentiments contrary to those which I +expressed when you voted for and elected me, I assure him that +his fears are wholly needless and groundless. Is the Judge +really afraid of any such thing? I'll tell you what he is afraid +of. He is afraid we'll all pull together. This is what alarms +him more than anything else. For my part, I do hope that all of +us, entertaining a common sentiment in opposition to what appears +to us a design to nationalize and perpetuate slavery, will waive +minor differences on questions which either belong to the dead +past or the distant future, and all pull together in this +struggle. What are your sentiments? If it be true that on the +ground which I occupy--ground which I occupy as frankly and +boldly as Judge Douglas does his,--my views, though partly +coinciding with yours, are not as perfectly in accordance with +your feelings as his are, I do say to you in all candor, go for +him, and not for me. I hope to deal in all things fairly with +Judge Douglas, and with the people of the State, in this contest. +And if I should never be elected to any office, I trust I may go +down with no stain of falsehood upon my reputation, +notwithstanding the hard opinions Judge Douglas chooses to +entertain of me. + +The Judge has again addressed himself to the Abolition tendencies +of a speech of mine made at Springfield in June last. I have so +often tried to answer what he is always saying on that melancholy +theme that I almost turn with disgust from the discussion,--from +the repetition of an answer to it. I trust that nearly all of +this intelligent audience have read that speech. If you have, I +may venture to leave it to you to inspect it closely, and see +whether it contains any of those "bugaboos" which frighten Judge +Douglas. + +The Judge complains that I did not fully answer his questions. +If I have the sense to comprehend and answer those questions, I +have done so fairly. If it can be pointed out to me how I can +more fully and fairly answer him, I aver I have not the sense to +see how it is to be done. He says I do not declare I would in +any event vote for the admission of a slave State into the Union. +If I have been fairly reported, he will see that I did give an +explicit answer to his interrogatories; I did not merely say that +I would dislike to be put to the test, but I said clearly, if I +were put to the test, and a Territory from which slavery had been +excluded should present herself with a State constitution +sanctioning slavery,--a most extraordinary thing, and wholly +unlikely to happen,--I did not see how I could avoid voting for +her admission. But he refuses to understand that I said so, and +he wants this audience to understand that I did not say so. Yet +it will be so reported in the printed speech that he cannot help +seeing it. + +He says if I should vote for the admission of a slave State I +would be voting for a dissolution of the Union, because I hold +that the Union cannot permanently exist half slave and half free. +I repeat that I do not believe this government can endure +permanently half slave and half free; yet I do not admit, nor +does it at all follow, that the admission of a single slave State +will permanently fix the character and establish this as a +universal slave nation. The Judge is very happy indeed at +working up these quibbles. Before leaving the subject of +answering questions, I aver as my confident belief, when you come +to see our speeches in print, that you will find every question +which he has asked me more fairly and boldly and fully answered +than he has answered those which I put to him. Is not that so? +The two speeches may be placed side by side, and I will venture +to leave it to impartial judges whether his questions have not +been more directly and circumstantially answered than mine. + +Judge Douglas says he made a charge upon the editor of the +Washington Union, alone, of entertaining a purpose to rob the +States of their power to exclude slavery from their limits. I +undertake to say, and I make the direct issue, that he did not +make his charge against the editor of the Union alone. I will +undertake to prove by the record here that he made that charge +against more and higher dignitaries than the editor of the +Washington Union. I am quite aware that he was shirking and +dodging around the form in which he put it, but I can make it +manifest that he leveled his "fatal blow" against more persons +than this Washington editor. Will he dodge it now by alleging +that I am trying to defend Mr. Buchanan against the charge? Not +at all. Am I not making the same charge myself? I am trying to +show that you, Judge Douglas, are a witness on my side. I am not +defending Buchanan, and I will tell Judge Douglas that in my +opinion, when he made that charge, he had an eye farther north +than he has to-day. He was then fighting against people who +called him a Black Republican and an Abolitionist. It is mixed +all through his speech, and it is tolerably manifest that his eye +was a great deal farther north than it is to-day. The Judge says +that though he made this charge, Toombs got up and declared there +was not a man in the United States, except the editor of the +Union, who was in favor of the doctrines put forth in that +article. And thereupon I understand that the Judge withdrew the +charge. Although he had taken extracts from the newspaper, and +then from the Lecompton Constitution, to show the existence of a +conspiracy to bring about a "fatal blow," by which the States +were to be deprived of the right of excluding slavery, it all +went to pot as soon as Toombs got up and told him it was not +true. It reminds me of the story that John Phoenix, the +California railroad surveyor, tells. He says they started out +from the Plaza to the Mission of Dolores. They had two ways of +determining distances. One was by a chain and pins taken over +the ground. The other was by a "go-it-ometer,"--an invention of +his own,--a three-legged instrument, with which he computed a +series of triangles between the points. At night he turned to +the chain-man to ascertain what distance they had come, and found +that by some mistake he had merely dragged the chain over the +ground, without keeping any record. By the "go-it-ometer," he +found he had made ten miles. Being skeptical about this, he +asked a drayman who was passing how far it was to the Plaza. The +drayman replied it was just half a mile; and the surveyor put it +down in his book,--just as Judge Douglas says, after he had made +his calculations and computations, he took Toombs's statement. I +have no doubt that after Judge Douglas had made his charge, he +was as easily satisfied about its truth as the surveyor was of +the drayman's statement of the distance to the Plaza. Yet it is +a fact that the man who put forth all that matter which Douglas +deemed a "fatal blow" at State sovereignty was elected by the +Democrats as public printer. + +Now, gentlemen, you may take Judge Douglas's speech of March 22, +1858, beginning about the middle of page 21, and reading to the +bottom of page 24, and you will find the evidence on which I say +that he did not make his charge against the editor of the Union +alone. I cannot stop to read it, but I will give it to the +reporters. Judge Douglas said: + +"Mr. President, you here find several distinct propositions +advanced boldly by the Washington Union editorially, and +apparently authoritatively, and every man who questions any of +them is denounced as an Abolitionist, a Free-soiler, a fanatic. +The propositions are, first, that the primary object of all +government at its original institution is the protection of +persons and property; second, that the Constitution of the United +States declares that the citizens of each State shall be entitled +to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several +States; and that, therefore, thirdly, all State laws, whether +organic or otherwise, which prohibit the citizens of one State +from settling in another with their slave property, and +especially declaring it forfeited, are direct violations of the +original intention of the Government and Constitution of the +United States; and, fourth, that the emancipation of the slaves +of the Northern States was a gross outrage on the rights of +property, in as much as it was involuntarily done on the part of +the owner. + +"Remember that this article was published in the Union on the +17th of November, and on the 18th appeared the first article +giving the adhesion of the Union to the Lecompton Constitution. +It was in these words: + +"'KANSAS AND HER CONSTITUTION.--The vexed question is settled. +The problem is solved. The dead point of danger is passed. All +serious trouble to Kansas affairs is over and gone...." + +"And a column, nearly, of the same sort. Then, when you come to +look into the Lecompton Constitution, you find the same doctrine +incorporated in it which was put forth editorially in the Union. +What is it? + +"'ARTICLE 7, Section i. The right of property is before and +higher than any constitutional sanction; and the right of the +owner of a slave to such slave and its increase is the same and +as invariable as the right of the owner of any property +whatever.' + +"Then in the schedule is a provision that the Constitution may be +amended after 1864 by a two-thirds vote. + +"'But no alteration shall be made to affect the right of property +in the ownership of slaves.' + +"It will be seen by these clauses in the Lecompton Constitution +that they are identical in spirit with this authoritative article +in the Washington Union of the day previous to its indorsement of +this Constitution. + +"When I saw that article in the Union of the 17th of November, +followed by the glorification of the Lecompton Constitution on +the 18th of November, and this clause in the Constitution +asserting the doctrine that a State has no right to prohibit +slavery within its limits, I saw that there was a fatal blow +being struck at the sovereignty of the States of this Union." + +Here he says, "Mr. President, you here find several distinct +propositions advanced boldly, and apparently authoritatively." +By whose authority, Judge Douglas? Again, he says in another +place, "It will be seen by these clauses in the Lecompton +Constitution that they are identical in spirit with this +authoritative article." By whose authority,--who do you mean to +say authorized the publication of these articles? He knows that +the Washington Union is considered the organ of the +Administration. I demand of Judge Douglas by whose authority he +meant to say those articles were published, if not by the +authority of the President of the United States and his Cabinet? +I defy him to show whom he referred to, if not to these high +functionaries in the Federal Government. More than this, he says +the articles in that paper and the provisions of the Lecompton +Constitution are "identical," and, being identical, he argues +that the authors are co-operating and conspiring together. He +does not use the word "conspiring," but what other construction +can you put upon it? He winds up: + +"When I saw that article in the Union of the 17th of November, +followed by the glorification of the Lecompton Constitution on +the 18th of November, and this clause in the Constitution +asserting the doctrine that a State has no right to prohibit +slavery within its limits, I saw that there was a fatal blow +being struck at the sovereignty of the States of this Union." + +I ask him if all this fuss was made over the editor of this +newspaper. It would be a terribly "fatal blow" indeed which a +single man could strike, when no President, no Cabinet officer, +no member of Congress, was giving strength and efficiency to the +movement. Out of respect to Judge Douglas's good sense I must +believe he did n't manufacture his idea of the "fatal" character +of that blow out of such a miserable scapegrace as he represents +that editor to be. But the Judge's eye is farther south now. +Then, it was very peculiarly and decidedly north. His hope +rested on the idea of visiting the great "Black Republican" +party, and making it the tail of his new kite. He knows he was +then expecting from day to day to turn Republican, and place +himself at the head of our organization. He has found that these +despised "Black Republicans" estimate him by a standard which he +has taught them none too well. Hence he is crawling back into +his old camp, and you will find him eventually installed in full +fellowship among those whom he was then battling, and with whom +he now pretends to be at such fearful variance. + + + + +THIRD JOINT DEBATE, AT JONESBORO, + +SEPTEMBER 15, 1858 + +Mr. LINCOLN'S REPLY. + +LADIES AND GENTLEMEN:--There is very much in the principles that +Judge Douglas has here enunciated that I most cordially approve, +and over which I shall have no controversy with him. In so far +as he has insisted that all the States have the right to do +exactly as they please about all their domestic relations, +including that of slavery, I agree entirely with him. He places +me wrong in spite of all I can tell him, though I repeat it again +and again, insisting that I have no difference with him upon this +subject. I have made a great many speeches, some of which have +been printed, and it will be utterly impossible for him to find +anything that I have ever put in print contrary to what I now say +upon this subject. I hold myself under constitutional +obligations to allow the people in all the States, without +interference, direct or indirect, to do exactly as they please; +and I deny that I have any inclination to interfere with them, +even if there were no such constitutional obligation. I can only +say again that I am placed improperly--altogether improperly, in +spite of all I can say--when it is insisted that I entertain any +other view or purposes in regard to that matter. + +While I am upon this subject, I will make some answers briefly to +certain propositions that Judge Douglas has put. He says, "Why +can't this Union endure permanently half slave and half free?" I +have said that I supposed it could not, and I will try, before +this new audience, to give briefly some of the reasons for +entertaining that opinion. Another form of his question is, "Why +can't we let it stand as our fathers placed it?" That is the +exact difficulty between us. I say that Judge Douglas and his +friends have changed it from the position in which our fathers +originally placed it. I say, in the way our father's originally +left the slavery question, the institution was in the course of +ultimate extinction, and the public mind rested in the belief +that it was in the course of ultimate extinction. I say when +this government was first established it was the policy of its +founders to prohibit the spread of slavery into the new +Territories of the United States, where it had not existed. But +Judge Douglas and his friends have broken up that policy, and +placed it upon a new basis, by which it is to become national and +perpetual. All I have asked or desired anywhere is that it +should be placed back again upon the basis that the fathers of +our government originally placed it upon. I have no doubt that +it would become extinct, for all time to come, if we but +readopted the policy of the fathers, by restricting it to the +limits it has already covered, restricting it from the new +Territories. + +I do not wish to dwell at great length on this branch of the +subject at this time, but allow me to repeat one thing that I +have stated before. Brooks--the man who assaulted Senator Sumner +on the floor of the Senate, and who was complimented with +dinners, and silver pitchers, and gold-headed canes, and a good +many other things for that feat--in one of his speeches declared +that when this government was originally established, nobody +expected that the institution of slavery would last until this +day. That was but the opinion of one man, but it was such an +opinion as we can never get from Judge Douglas or anybody in +favor of slavery, in the North, at all. You can sometimes get it +from a Southern man. He said at the same time that the framers +of our government did not have the knowledge that experience has +taught us; that experience and the invention of the cotton-gin +have taught us that the perpetuation of slavery is a necessity. +He insisted, therefore, upon its being changed from the basis +upon which the fathers of the government left it to the basis of +its perpetuation and nationalization. + +I insist that this is the difference between Judge Douglas and +myself,--that Judge Douglas is helping that change along. I +insist upon this government being placed where our fathers +originally placed it. + +I remember Judge Douglas once said that he saw the evidences on +the statute books of Congress of a policy in the origin of +government to divide slavery and freedom by a geographical line; +that he saw an indisposition to maintain that policy, and +therefore he set about studying up a way to settle the +institution on the right basis,--the basis which he thought it +ought to have been placed upon at first; and in that speech he +confesses that he seeks to place it, not upon the basis that the +fathers placed it upon, but upon one gotten up on "original +principles." When he asks me why we cannot get along with it in +the attitude where our fathers placed it, he had better clear up +the evidences that he has himself changed it from that basis, +that he has himself been chiefly instrumental in changing the +policy of the fathers. Any one who will read his speech of the +22d of last March will see that he there makes an open +confession, showing that he set about fixing the institution upon +an altogether different set of principles. I think I have fully +answered him when he asks me why we cannot let it alone upon the +basis where our fathers left it, by showing that he has himself +changed the whole policy of the government in that regard. + +Now, fellow-citizens, in regard to this matter about a contract +that was made between Judge Trumbull and myself, and all that +long portion of Judge Douglas's speech on this subject,--I wish +simply to say what I have said to him before, that he cannot know +whether it is true or not, and I do know that there is not a word +of truth in it. And I have told him so before. I don't want any +harsh language indulged in, but I do not know how to deal with +this persistent insisting on a story that I know to be utterly +without truth. It used to be a fashion amongst men that when a +charge was made, some sort of proof was brought forward to +establish it, and if no proof was found to exist, the charge was +dropped. I don't know how to meet this kind of an argument. I +don't want to have a fight with Judge Douglas, and I have no way +of making an argument up into the consistency of a corn-cob and +stopping his mouth with it. All I can do is--good-humoredly--to +say that, from the beginning to the end of all that story about a +bargain between Judge Trumbull and myself, there is not a word of +truth in it. I can only ask him to show some sort of evidence of +the truth of his story. He brings forward here and reads from +what he contends is a speech by James H. Matheny, charging such +a bargain between Trumbull and myself. My own opinion is that +Matheny did do some such immoral thing as to tell a story that he +knew nothing about. I believe he did. I contradicted it +instantly, and it has been contradicted by Judge Trumbull, while +nobody has produced any proof, because there is none. Now, +whether the speech which the Judge brings forward here is really +the one Matheny made, I do not know, and I hope the Judge will +pardon me for doubting the genuineness of this document, since +his production of those Springfield resolutions at Ottawa. I do +not wish to dwell at any great length upon this matter. I can +say nothing when a long story like this is told, except it is not +true, and demand that he who insists upon it shall produce some +proof. That is all any man can do, and I leave it in that way, +for I know of no other way of dealing with it. + +[In an argument on the lines of: "Yes, you did. --No, I did +not." It bears on the former to prove his point, not on the +negative to "prove" that he did not--even if he easily can do +so.] + +The Judge has gone over a long account of the old Whig and +Democratic parties, and it connects itself with this charge +against Trumbull and myself. He says that they agreed upon a +compromise in regard to the slavery question in 1850; that in a +National Democratic Convention resolutions were passed to abide +by that compromise as a finality upon the slavery question. He +also says that the Whig party in National Convention agreed to +abide by and regard as a finality the Compromise of 1850. I +understand the Judge to be altogether right about that; I +understand that part of the history of the country as stated by +him to be correct I recollect that I, as a member of that party, +acquiesced in that compromise. I recollect in the Presidential +election which followed, when we had General Scott up for the +presidency, Judge Douglas was around berating us Whigs as +Abolitionists, precisely as he does to-day,--not a bit of +difference. I have often heard him. We could do nothing when +the old Whig party was alive that was not Abolitionism, but it +has got an extremely good name since it has passed away. + +[It almost a natural law that, when dead--no matter how bad we +were--we are automatically beatified.] + +When that Compromise was made it did not repeal the old Missouri +Compromise. It left a region of United States territory half as +large as the present territory of the United States, north of the +line of 36 degrees 30 minutes, in which slavery was prohibited by +Act of Congress. This Compromise did not repeal that one. It +did not affect or propose to repeal it. But at last it became +Judge Douglas's duty, as he thought (and I find no fault with +him), as Chairman of the Committee on Territories, to bring in a +bill for the organization of a territorial government,--first of +one, then of two Territories north of that line. When he did so, +it ended in his inserting a provision substantially repealing the +Missouri Compromise. That was because the Compromise of 1850 had +not repealed it. And now I ask why he could not have let that +Compromise alone? We were quiet from the agitation of the +slavery question. We were making no fuss about it. All had +acquiesced in the Compromise measures of 1850. We never had been +seriously disturbed by any Abolition agitation before that +period. When he came to form governments for the Territories +north of the line of 36 degrees 30 minutes, why could he not have +let that matter stand as it was standing? Was it necessary to +the organization of a Territory? Not at all. Iowa lay north of +the line, and had been organized as a Territory and come into the +Union as a State without disturbing that Compromise. There was +no sort of necessity for destroying it to organize these +Territories. But, gentlemen, it would take up all my time to +meet all the little quibbling arguments of Judge Douglas to show +that the Missouri Compromise was repealed by the Compromise of +1850. My own opinion is, that a careful investigation of all the +arguments to sustain the position that that Compromise was +virtually repealed by the Compromise of 1850 would show that they +are the merest fallacies. I have the report that Judge Douglas +first brought into Congress at the time of the introduction of +the Nebraska Bill, which in its original form did not repeal the +Missouri Compromise, and he there expressly stated that he had +forborne to do so because it had not been done by the Compromise +of 1850. I close this part of the discussion on my part by +asking him the question again, "Why, when we had peace under the +Missouri Compromise, could you not have let it alone?" + +In complaining of what I said in my speech at Springfield, in +which he says I accepted my nomination for the senatorship +(where, by the way, he is at fault, for if he will examine it, he +will find no acceptance in it), he again quotes that portion in +which I said that "a house divided against itself cannot stand." +Let me say a word in regard to that matter. + +He tries to persuade us that there must be a variety in the +different institutions of the States of the Union; that that +variety necessarily proceeds from the variety of soil, climate, +of the face of the country, and the difference in the natural +features of the States. I agree to all that. Have these very +matters ever produced any difficulty amongst us? Not at all. +Have we ever had any quarrel over the fact that they have laws in +Louisiana designed to regulate the commerce that springs from the +production of sugar? Or because we have a different class +relative to the production of flour in this State? Have they +produced any differences? Not at all. They are the very cements +of this Union. They don't make the house a house divided against +itself. They are the props that hold up the house and sustain +the Union. + +But has it been so with this element of slavery? Have we not +always had quarrels and difficulties over it? And when will we +cease to have quarrels over it? Like causes produce like +effects. It is worth while to observe that we have generally had +comparative peace upon the slavery question, and that there has +been no cause for alarm until it was excited by the effort to +spread it into new territory. Whenever it has been limited to +its present bounds, and there has been no effort to spread it, +there has been peace. All the trouble and convulsion has +proceeded from efforts to spread it over more territory. It was +thus at the date of the Missouri Compromise. It was so again +with the annexation of Texas; so with the territory acquired by +the Mexican war; and it is so now. Whenever there has been an +effort to spread it, there has been agitation and resistance. +Now, I appeal to this audience (very few of whom are my political +friends), as national men, whether we have reason to expect that +the agitation in regard to this subject will cease while the +causes that tend to reproduce agitation are actively at work? +Will not the same cause that produced agitation in 1820, when the +Missouri Compromise was formed, that which produced the agitation +upon the annexation of Texas, and at other times, work out the +same results always? Do you think that the nature of man will be +changed, that the same causes that produced agitation at one time +will not have the same effect at another? + +This has been the result so far as my observation of the slavery +question and my reading in history extends. What right have we +then to hope that the trouble will cease,--that the agitation +will come to an end,--until it shall either be placed back where +it originally stood, and where the fathers originally placed it, +or, on the other hand, until it shall entirely master all +opposition? This is the view I entertain, and this is the reason +why I entertained it, as Judge Douglas has read from my +Springfield speech. + +Now, my friends, there is one other thing that I feel myself +under some sort of obligation to mention. Judge Douglas has here +to-day--in a very rambling way, I was about saying--spoken of the +platforms for which he seeks to hold me responsible. He says, +"Why can't you come out and make an open avowal of principles in +all places alike?" and he reads from an advertisement that he +says was used to notify the people of a speech to be made by +Judge Trumbull at Waterloo. In commenting on it he desires to +know whether we cannot speak frankly and manfully, as he and his +friends do. How, I ask, do his friends speak out their own +sentiments? A Convention of his party in this State met on the +21st of April at Springfield, and passed a set of resolutions +which they proclaim to the country as their platform. This does +constitute their platform, and it is because Judge Douglas claims +it is his platform--that these are his principles and purposes-- +that he has a right to declare he speaks his sentiments "frankly +and manfully." On the 9th of June Colonel John Dougherty, +Governor Reynolds, and others, calling themselves National +Democrats, met in Springfield and adopted a set of resolutions +which are as easily understood, as plain and as definite in +stating to the country and to the world what they believed in and +would stand upon, as Judge Douglas's platform Now, what is the +reason that Judge Douglas is not willing that Colonel Dougherty +and Governor Reynolds should stand upon their own written and +printed platform as well as he upon his? Why must he look +farther than their platform when he claims himself to stand by +his platform? + +Again, in reference to our platform: On the 16th of June the +Republicans had their Convention and published their platform, +which is as clear and distinct as Judge Douglas's. In it they +spoke their principles as plainly and as definitely to the world. +What is the reason that Judge Douglas is not willing I should +stand upon that platform? Why must he go around hunting for some +one who is supporting me or has supported me at some time in his +life, and who has said something at some time contrary to that +platform? Does the Judge regard that rule as a good one? If it +turn out that the rule is a good one for me--that I am +responsible for any and every opinion that any man has expressed +who is my friend,--then it is a good rule for him. I ask, is it +not as good a rule for him as it is for me? In my opinion, it is +not a good rule for either of us. Do you think differently, +Judge? + +[Mr. DOUGLAS: I do not.] + +Judge Douglas says he does not think differently. I am glad of +it. Then can he tell me why he is looking up resolutions of five +or six years ago, and insisting that they were my platform, +notwithstanding my protest that they are not, and never were my +platform, and my pointing out the platform of the State +Convention which he delights to say nominated me for the Senate? +I cannot see what he means by parading these resolutions, if it +is not to hold me responsible for them in some way. If he says +to me here that he does not hold the rule to be good, one way or +the other, I do not comprehend how he could answer me more fully +if he answered me at greater length. I will therefore put in as +my answer to the resolutions that he has hunted up against me, +what I, as a lawyer, would call a good plea to a bad declaration. +I understand that it is an axiom of law that a poor plea may be a +good plea to a bad declaration. I think that the opinions the +Judge brings from those who support me, yet differ from me, is a +bad declaration against me; but if I can bring the same things +against him, I am putting in a good plea to that kind of +declaration, and now I propose to try it. + +At Freeport, Judge Douglas occupied a large part of his time in +producing resolutions and documents of various sorts, as I +understood, to make me somehow responsible for them; and I +propose now doing a little of the same sort of thing for him. In +1850 a very clever gentleman by the name of Thompson Campbell, a +personal friend of Judge Douglas and myself, a political friend +of Judge Douglas and opponent of mine, was a candidate for +Congress in the Galena District. He was interrogated as to his +views on this same slavery question. I have here before me the +interrogatories, and Campbell's answers to them--I will read +them: + + + + +INTERROGATORIES: + +"1st. Will you, if elected, vote for and cordially support a +bill prohibiting slavery in the Territories of the United States? + +"2d. Will you vote for and support a bill abolishing slavery in +the District of Columbia? + +"3d. Will you oppose the admission of any Slave States which may +be formed out of Texas or the Territories? + +"4th. Will you vote for and advocate the repeal of the Fugitive +Slave law passed at the recent session of Congress? + +"5th. Will you advocate and vote for the election of a Speaker +of the House of Representatives who shall be willing to organize +the committees of that House so as to give the Free States their +just influence in the business of legislation? + +"6th. What are your views, not only as to the constitutional +right of Congress to prohibit the slave-trade between the States, +but also as to the expediency of exercising that right +immediately?" + + + + +CAMPBELL'S REPLY. + +"To the first and second interrogatories, I answer unequivocally +in the affirmative. + +"To the third interrogatory I reply, that I am opposed to the +admission of any more Slave States into the Union, that may be +formed out of Texas or any other Territory. + +"To the fourth and fifth interrogatories I unhesitatingly answer +in the affirmative. + +"To the sixth interrogatory I reply, that so long as the Slave +States continue to treat slaves as articles of commerce, the +Constitution confers power on Congress to pass laws regulating +that peculiar COMMERCE, and that the protection of Human Rights +imperatively demands the interposition of every constitutional +means to prevent this most inhuman and iniquitous traffic. + +"T. CAMPBELL." + + + + +I want to say here that Thompson Campbell was elected to Congress +on that platform, as the Democratic candidate in the Galena +District, against Martin P. Sweet. + +[Judge DOUGLAS: Give me the date of the letter.] + +The time Campbell ran was in 1850. I have not the exact date +here. It was some time in 1850 that these interrogatories were +put and the answer given. Campbell was elected to Congress, and +served out his term. I think a second election came up before he +served out his term, and he was not re-elected. Whether defeated +or not nominated, I do not know. [Mr. Campbell was nominated for +re-election by the Democratic party, by acclamation.] At the end +of his term his very good friend Judge Douglas got him a high +office from President Pierce, and sent him off to California. Is +not that the fact? Just at the end of his term in Congress it +appears that our mutual friend Judge Douglas got our mutual +friend Campbell a good office, and sent him to California upon +it. And not only so, but on the 27th of last month, when Judge +Douglas and myself spoke at Freeport in joint discussion, there +was his same friend Campbell, come all the way from California, +to help the Judge beat me; and there was poor Martin P. Sweet +standing on the platform, trying to help poor me to be elected. +That is true of one of Judge Douglas's friends. + +So again, in that same race of 1850, there was a Congressional +Convention assembled at Joliet, and it nominated R. S. Molony +for Congress, and unanimously adopted the following resolution: + +"Resolved, That we are uncompromisingly opposed to the extension +of slavery; and while we would not make such opposition a ground +of interference with the interests of the States where it exists, +yet we moderately but firmly insist that it is the duty of +Congress to oppose its extension into Territory now free, by all +means compatible with the obligations of the Constitution, and +with good faith to our sister States; that these principles were +recognized by the Ordinance of 1787, which received the sanction +of Thomas Jefferson, who is acknowledged by all to be the great +oracle and expounder of our faith." + +Subsequently the same interrogatories were propounded to Dr. +Molony which had been addressed to Campbell as above, with the +exception of the 6th, respecting the interstate slave trade, to +which Dr. Molony, the Democratic nominee for Congress, replied +as follows: + +"I received the written interrogatories this day, and, as you +will see by the La Salle Democrat and Ottawa Free Trader, I took +at Peru on the 5th, and at Ottawa on the 7th, the affirmative +side of interrogatories 1st and 2d; and in relation to the +admission of any more Slave States from Free Territory, my +position taken at these meetings, as correctly reported in said +papers, was emphatically and distinctly opposed to it. In +relation to the admission of any more Slave States from Texas, +whether I shall go against it or not will depend upon the opinion +that I may hereafter form of the true meaning and nature of the +resolutions of annexation. If, by said resolutions, the honor +and good faith of the nation is pledged to admit more Slave +States from Texas when she (Texas) may apply for the admission of +such State, then I should, if in Congress, vote for their +admission. But if not so PLEDGED and bound by sacred contract, +then a bill for the admission of more Slave States from Texas +would never receive my vote. + +"To your fourth interrogatory I answer most decidedly in the +affirmative, and for reasons set forth in my reported remarks at +Ottawa last Monday. + +"To your fifth interrogatory I also reply in the affirmative most +cordially, and that I will use my utmost exertions to secure the +nomination and election of a man who will accomplish the objects +of said interrogatories. I most cordially approve of the +resolutions adopted at the Union meeting held at Princeton on the +27th September ult. + +"Yours, etc.,R. S. MOLONY." + + + + +All I have to say in regard to Dr. Molony is that he was the +regularly nominated Democratic candidate for Congress in his +district; was elected at that time; at the end of his term was +appointed to a land-office at Danville. (I never heard anything +of Judge Douglas's instrumentality in this.) He held this office +a considerable time, and when we were at Freeport the other day +there were handbills scattered about notifying the public that +after our debate was over R. S. Molony would make a Democratic +speech in favor of Judge Douglas. That is all I know of my own +personal knowledge. It is added here to this resolution, and +truly I believe, that among those who participated in the Joliet +Convention, and who supported its nominee, with his platform as +laid down in the resolution of the Convention and in his reply as +above given, we call at random the following names, all of which +are recognized at this day as leading +Democrats: + +"Cook County,--E. B. Williams, Charles McDonell, Arno Voss, +Thomas Hoyne, Isaac Cook." + +I reckon we ought to except Cook. + +"F. C. Sherman. +"Will,--Joel A. Matteson, S. W. Bowen. +"Kane,--B. F. Hall, G. W. Renwick, A. M. Herrington, Elijah +Wilcox. +"McHenry,--W. M. Jackson, Enos W. Smith, Neil Donnelly. +La Salle,--John Hise, William Reddick." + +William Reddick! another one of Judge Douglas's friends that +stood on the stand with him at Ottawa, at the time the Judge says +my knees trembled so that I had to be carried away. The names +are all here: + +"Du Page,--Nathan Allen. +"De Kalb,--Z. B. Mayo." + +Here is another set of resolutions which I think are apposite to +the matter in hand. + +On the 28th of February of the same year a Democratic District +Convention was held at Naperville to nominate a candidate for +Circuit Judge. Among the delegates were Bowen and Kelly of Will; +Captain Naper, H. H. Cody, Nathan Allen, of Du Page; W. M. +Jackson, J. M. Strode, P. W. Platt, and Enos W. Smith of McHenry; +J. Horssnan and others of Winnebago. Colonel Strode presided +over the Convention. The following resolutions were unanimously +adopted,--the first on motion of P. W. Platt, the second on +motion of William M. Jackson: + +"Resolved, That this Convention is in favor of the Wilmot +Proviso, both in Principle and Practice, and that we know of no +good reason why any person should oppose the largest latitude in +Free Soil, Free Territory and Free speech. + +"Resolved, That in the opinion of this Convention, the time has +arrived when all men should be free, whites as well as others." + + +[Judge DOUGLAS: What is the date of those resolutions?] + + +I understand it was in 1850, but I do not know it. I do not +state a thing and say I know it, when I do not. But I have the +highest belief that this is so. I know of no way to arrive at +the conclusion that there is an error in it. I mean to put a +case no stronger than the truth will allow. But what I was going +to comment upon is an extract from a newspaper in De Kalb County; +and it strikes me as being rather singular, I confess, under the +circumstances. There is a Judge Mayo in that county, who is a +candidate for the Legislature, for the purpose, if he secures his +election, of helping to re-elect Judge Douglas. He is the editor +of a newspaper [De Kalb County Sentinel], and in that paper I +find the extract I am going to read. It is part of an editorial +article in which he was electioneering as fiercely as he could +for Judge Douglas and against me. It was a curious thing, I +think, to be in such a paper. I will agree to that, and the +Judge may make the most of it: + +"Our education has been such that we have been rather in favor of +the equality of the blacks; that is, that they should enjoy all +the privileges of the whites where they reside. We are aware +that this is not a very popular doctrine. We have had many a +confab with some who are now strong 'Republicans' we taking the +broad ground of equality, and they the opposite ground. + +"We were brought up in a State where blacks were voters, and we +do not know of any inconvenience resulting from it, though +perhaps it would not work as well where the blacks are more +numerous. We have no doubt of the right of the whites to guard +against such an evil, if it is one. Our opinion is that it would +be best for all concerned to have the colored population in a +State by themselves [in this I agree with him]; but if within the +jurisdiction of the United States, we say by all means they +should have the right to have their Senators and Representatives +in Congress, and to vote for President. With us 'worth makes the +man, and want of it the fellow.' We have seen many a 'nigger' +that we thought more of than some white men." + +That is one of Judge Douglas's friends. Now, I do not want to +leave myself in an attitude where I can be misrepresented, so I +will say I do not think the Judge is responsible for this +article; but he is quite as responsible for it as I would be if +one of my friends had said it. I think that is fair enough. + +I have here also a set of resolutions passed by a Democratic +State Convention in Judge Douglas's own good State of Vermont, +that I think ought to be good for him too: + +"Resolved, That liberty is a right inherent and inalienable in +man, and that herein all men are equal. +"Resolved, That we claim no authority in the Federal Government +to abolish slavery in the several States, but we do claim for it +Constitutional power perpetually to prohibit the introduction of +slavery into territory now free, and abolish it wherever, under +the jurisdiction of Congress, it exists. +"Resolved, That this power ought immediately to be exercised in +prohibiting the introduction and existence of slavery in New +Mexico and California, in abolishing slavery and the slave-trade +in the District of Columbia, on the high seas, and wherever else, +under the Constitution, it can be reached. +"Resolved, That no more Slave States should be admitted into the +Federal Union. +"Resolved, That the Government ought to return to its ancient +policy, not to extend, nationalize, or encourage, but to limit, +localize, and discourage slavery." + +At Freeport I answered several interrogatories that had been +propounded to me by Judge Douglas at the Ottawa meeting. The +Judge has not yet seen fit to find any fault with the position +that I took in regard to those seven interrogatories, which were +certainly broad enough, in all conscience, to cover the entire +ground. In my answers, which have been printed, and all have had +the opportunity of seeing, I take the ground that those who elect +me must expect that I will do nothing which will not be in +accordance with those answers. I have some right to assert that +Judge Douglas has no fault to find with them. But he chooses to +still try to thrust me upon different ground, without paying any +attention to my answers, the obtaining of which from me cost him +so much trouble and concern. At the same time I propounded four +interrogatories to him, claiming it as a right that he should +answer as many interrogatories for me as I did for him, and I +would reserve myself for a future instalment when I got them +ready. The Judge, in answering me upon that occasion, put in +what I suppose he intends as answers to all four of my +interrogatories. The first one of these interrogatories I have +before me, and it is in these words: + +"Question 1.--If the people of Kansas shall, by means entirely +unobjectionable in all other respects, adopt a State +constitution, and ask admission into the Union under it, before +they have the requisite number of inhabitants according to the +English bill, "-some ninety-three thousand,-" will you vote to +admit them?" + +As I read the Judge's answer in the newspaper, and as I remember +it as pronounced at the time, he does not give any answer which +is equivalent to yes or no,--I will or I won't. He answers at +very considerable length, rather quarreling with me for asking +the question, and insisting that Judge Trumbull had done +something that I ought to say something about, and finally +getting out such statements as induce me to infer that he means +to be understood he will, in that supposed case, vote for the +admission of Kansas. I only bring this forward now for the +purpose of saying that if he chooses to put a different +construction upon his answer, he may do it. But if he does not, +I shall from this time forward assume that he will vote for the +admission of Kansas in disregard of the English bill. He has the +right to remove any misunderstanding I may have. I only mention +it now, that I may hereafter assume this to be the true +construction of his answer, if he does not now choose to correct +me. + +The second interrogatory that I propounded to him was this: + +"Question 2.--Can the people of a United States Territory, in any +lawful way, against the wish of any citizen of the United States, +exclude slavery from its limits prior to the formation of a State +Constitution?" + +To this Judge Douglas answered that they can lawfully exclude +slavery from the Territory prior to the formation of a +constitution. He goes on to tell us how it can be done. As I +understand him, he holds that it can be done by the Territorial +Legislature refusing to make any enactments for the protection of +slavery in the Territory, and especially by adopting unfriendly +legislation to it. For the sake of clearness, I state it again: +that they can exclude slavery from the Territory, 1st, by +withholding what he assumes to be an indispensable assistance to +it in the way of legislation; and, 2d, by unfriendly legislation. +If I rightly understand him, I wish to ask your attention for a +while to his position. + +In the first place, the Supreme Court of the United States has +decided that any Congressional prohibition of slavery in the +Territories is unconstitutional; that they have reached this +proposition as a conclusion from their former proposition, that +the Constitution of the United States expressly recognizes +property in slaves, and from that other Constitutional provision, +that no person shall be deprived of property without due process +of law. Hence they reach the conclusion that as the Constitution +of the United States expressly recognizes property in slaves, and +prohibits any person from being deprived of property without due +process of law, to pass an Act of Congress by which a man who +owned a slave on one side of a line would be deprived of him if +he took him on the other side, is depriving him of that property +without due process of law. That I understand to be the decision +of the Supreme Court. I understand also that Judge Douglas +adheres most firmly to that decision; and the difficulty is, how +is it possible for any power to exclude slavery from the +Territory, unless in violation of that decision? That is the +difficulty. + +In the Senate of the United States, in 1850, Judge Trumbull, in a +speech substantially, if not directly, put the same interrogatory +to Judge Douglas, as to whether the people of a Territory had the +lawful power to exclude slavery prior to the formation of a +constitution. Judge Douglas then answered at considerable +length, and his answer will be found in the Congressiona1 Globe, +under date of June 9th, 1856. The Judge said that whether the +people could exclude slavery prior to the formation of a +constitution or not was a question to be decided by the Supreme +Court. He put that proposition, as will be seen by the +Congressional Globe, in a variety of forms, all running to the +same thing in substance,--that it was a question for the Supreme +Court. I maintain that when he says, after the Supreme Court +have decided the question, that the people may yet exclude +slavery by any means whatever, he does virtually say that it is +not a question for the Supreme Court. He shifts his ground. I +appeal to you whether he did not say it was a question for the +Supreme Court? Has not the Supreme Court decided that question? +when he now says the people may exclude slavery, does he not make +it a question for the people? Does he not virtually shift his +ground and say that it is not a question for the Court, but for +the people? This is a very simple proposition,--a very plain and +naked one. It seems to me that there is no difficulty in +deciding it. In a variety of ways he said that it was a question +for the Supreme Court. He did not stop then to tell us that, +whatever the Supreme Court decides, the people can by withholding +necessary "police regulations" keep slavery out. He did not make +any such answer I submit to you now whether the new state of the +case has not induced the Judge to sheer away from his original +ground. Would not this be the impression of every fair-minded +man? + +I hold that the proposition that slavery cannot enter a new +country without police regulations is historically false. It is +not true at all. I hold that the history of this country shows +that the institution of slavery was originally planted upon this +continent without these "police regulations," which the Judge now +thinks necessary for the actual establishment of it. Not only +so, but is there not another fact: how came this Dred Scott +decision to be made? It was made upon the case of a negro being +taken and actually held in slavery in Minnesota Territory, +claiming his freedom because the Act of Congress prohibited his +being so held there. Will the Judge pretend that Dred Scott was +not held there without police regulations? There is at least one +matter of record as to his having been held in slavery in the +Territory, not only without police regulations, but in the teeth +of Congressional legislation supposed to be valid at the time. +This shows that there is vigor enough in slavery to plant itself +in a new country even against unfriendly legislation. It takes +not only law, but the enforcement of law to keep it out. That is +the history of this country upon the subject. + +I wish to ask one other question. It being understood that the +Constitution of the United States guarantees property in slaves +in the Territories, if there is any infringement of the right of +that property, would not the United States courts, organized for +the government of the Territory, apply such remedy as might be +necessary in that case? It is a maxim held by the courts that +there is no wrong without its remedy; and the courts have a +remedy for whatever is acknowledged and treated as a wrong. + +Again: I will ask you, my friends, if you were elected members of +the Legislature, what would be the first thing you would have to +do before entering upon your duties? Swear to support the +Constitution of the United States. Suppose you believe, as Judge +Douglas does, that the Constitution of the United States +guarantees to your neighbor the right to hold slaves in that +Territory; that they are his property: how can you clear your +oaths unless you give him such legislation as is necessary to +enable him to enjoy that property? What do you understand by +supporting the Constitution of a State, or of the United States? +Is it not to give such constitutional helps to the rights +established by that Constitution as may be practically needed? +Can you, if you swear to support the Constitution, and believe +that the Constitution establishes a right, clear your oath, +without giving it support? Do you support the Constitution if, +knowing or believing there is a right established under it which +needs specific legislation, you withhold that legislation? Do +you not violate and disregard your oath? I can conceive of +nothing plainer in the world. There can be nothing in the words +"support the Constitution," if you may run counter to it by +refusing support to any right established under the Constitution. +And what I say here will hold with still more force against the +Judge's doctrine of "unfriendly legislation." How could you, +having sworn to support the Constitution, and believing it +guaranteed the right to hold slaves in the Territories, assist in +legislation intended to defeat that right? That would be +violating your own view of the Constitution. Not only so, but if +you were to do so, how long would it take the courts to hold your +votes unconstitutional and void? Not a moment. + +Lastly, I would ask: Is not Congress itself under obligation to +give legislative support to any right that is established under +the United States Constitution? I repeat the question: Is not +Congress itself bound to give legislative support to any right +that is established in the United States Constitution? A member +of Congress swears to support the Constitution of the United +States: and if he sees a right established by that Constitution +which needs specific legislative protection, can he clear his +oath without giving that protection? Let me ask you why many of +us who are opposed to slavery upon principle give our +acquiescence to a Fugitive Slave law? Why do we hold ourselves +under obligations to pass such a law, and abide by it when it is +passed? Because the Constitution makes provision that the owners +of slaves shall have the right to reclaim them. It gives the +right to reclaim slaves; and that right is, as Judge Douglas +says, a barren right, unless there is legislation that will +enforce it. + +The mere declaration, "No person held to service or labor in one +State under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall in +consequence of any law or regulation therein be discharged from +such service or labor, but shall be delivered up on claim of the +party to whom such service or labor may be due, "is powerless +without specific legislation to enforce it." Now, on what ground +would a member of Congress, who is opposed to slavery in the +abstract, vote for a Fugitive law, as I would deem it my duty to +do? Because there is a constitutional right which needs +legislation to enforce it. And although it is distasteful to me, +I have sworn to support the Constitution; and having so sworn, I +cannot conceive that I do support it if I withhold from that +right any necessary legislation to make it practical. And if +that is true in regard to a Fugitive Slave law, is the right to +have fugitive slaves reclaimed any better fixed in the +Constitution than the right to hold slaves in the Territories? +For this decision is a just exposition of the Constitution, as +Judge Douglas thinks. Is the one right any better than the +other? Is there any man who, while a member of Congress, would +give support to the one any more than the other? If I wished to +refuse to give legislative support to slave property in the +Territories, if a member of Congress, I could not do it, holding +the view that the Constitution establishes that right. If I did +it at all, it would be because I deny that this decision properly +construes the Constitution. But if I acknowledge, with Judge +Douglas, that this decision properly construes the Constitution, +I cannot conceive that I would be less than a perjured man if I +should refuse in Congress to give such protection to that +property as in its nature it needed. + +At the end of what I have said here I propose to give the Judge +my fifth interrogatory, which he may take and answer at his +leisure. My fifth interrogatory is this: + +If the slaveholding citizens of a United States Territory should +need and demand Congressional legislation for the protection of +their slave property in such Territory, would you, as a member of +Congress, vote for or against such legislation? + +[Judge DOUGLAS: Will you repeat that? I want to answer that +question.] + +If the slaveholding citizens of a United States Territory should +need and demand Congressional legislation for the protection of +their slave property in such Territory, would you, as a member of +Congress, vote for or against such legislation? + +I am aware that in some of the speeches Judge Douglas has made, +he has spoken as if he did not know or think that the Supreme +Court had decided that a Territorial Legislature cannot exclude +slavery. Precisely what the Judge would say upon the subject-- +whether he would say definitely that he does not understand they +have so decided, or whether he would say he does understand that +the court have so decided,--I do not know; but I know that in his +speech at Springfield he spoke of it as a thing they had not +decided yet; and in his answer to me at Freeport, he spoke of it, +so far, again, as I can comprehend it, as a thing that had not +yet been decided. Now, I hold that if the Judge does entertain +that view, I think that he is not mistaken in so far as it can be +said that the court has not decided anything save the mere +question of jurisdiction. I know the legal arguments that can be +made,--that after a court has decided that it cannot take +jurisdiction in a case, it then has decided all that is before +it, and that is the end of it. A plausib1e argument can be made +in favor of that proposition; but I know that Judge Douglas has +said in one of his speeches that the court went forward, like +honest men as they were, and decided all the points in the case. +If any points are really extra-judicially decided, because not +necessarily before them, then this one as to the power of the +Territorial Legislature, to exclude slavery is one of them, as +also the one that the Missouri Compromise was null and void. +They are both extra-judicial, or neither is, according as the +court held that they had no jurisdiction in the case between the +parties, because of want of capacity of one party to maintain a +suit in that court. I want, if I have sufficient time, to show +that the court did pass its opinion; but that is the only thing +actually done in the case. If they did not decide, they showed +what they were ready to decide whenever the matter was before +them. What is that opinion? After having argued that Congress +had no power to pass a law excluding slavery from a United States +Territory, they then used language to this effect: That inasmuch +as Congress itself could not exercise such a power, it followed +as a matter of course that it could not authorize a Territorial +government to exercise it; for the Territorial Legislature can do +no more than Congress could do. Thus it expressed its opinion +emphatically against the power of a Territorial Legislature to +exclude slavery, leaving us in just as little doubt on that point +as upon any other point they really decided. + +Now, my fellow-citizens, I will detain you only a little while +longer; my time is nearly out. I find a report of a speech made +by Judge Douglas at Joliet, since we last met at Freeport,-- +published, I believe, in the Missouri Republican, on the 9th of +this month, in which Judge Douglas says: + +"You know at Ottawa I read this platform, and asked him if he +concurred in each and all of the principles set forth in it. He +would not answer these questions. At last I said frankly, I wish +you to answer them, because when I get them up here where the +color of your principles are a little darker than in Egypt, I +intend to trot you down to Jonesboro. The very notice that I was +going to take him down to Egypt made him tremble in his knees so +that he had to be carried from the platform. He laid up seven +days, and in the meantime held a consultation with his political +physicians; they had Lovejoy and Farnsworth and all the leaders +of the Abolition party, they consulted it all over, and at last +Lincoln came to the conclusion that he would answer, so he came +up to Freeport last Friday." + +Now, that statement altogether furnishes a subject for +philosophical contemplation. I have been treating it in that +way, and I have really come to the conclusion that I can explain +it in no other way than by believing the Judge is crazy. If he +was in his right mind I cannot conceive how he would have risked +disgusting the four or five thousand of his own friends who stood +there and knew, as to my having been carried from the platform, +that there was not a word of truth in it. + +[Judge DOUGLAS: Did n't they carry you off?] + +There that question illustrates the character of this man Douglas +exactly. He smiles now, and says, "Did n't they carry you off?" +but he said then "he had to be carried off"; and he said it to +convince the country that he had so completely broken me down by +his speech that I had to be carried away. Now he seeks to dodge +it, and asks, "Did n't they carry you off?" Yes, they did. But, +Judge Douglas, why didn't you tell the truth?" I would like to +know why you did n't tell the truth about it. And then again "He +laid up seven days." He put this in print for the people of the +country to read as a serious document. I think if he had been in +his sober senses he would not have risked that barefacedness in +the presence of thousands of his own friends who knew that I made +speeches within six of the seven days at Henry, Marshall County, +Augusta, Hancock County, and Macomb, McDonough County, including +all the necessary travel to meet him again at Freeport at the end +of the six days. Now I say there is no charitable way to look at +that statement, except to conclude that he is actually crazy. +There is another thing in that statement that alarmed me very +greatly as he states it, that he was going to "trot me down to +Egypt." Thereby he would have you infer that I would not come to +Egypt unless he forced me--that I could not be got here unless +he, giant-like, had hauled me down here. That statement he +makes, too, in the teeth of the knowledge that I had made the +stipulation to come down here and that he himself had been very +reluctant to enter into the stipulation. More than all this: +Judge Douglas, when he made that statement, must have been crazy +and wholly out of his sober senses, or else he would have known +that when he got me down here, that promise--that windy promise-- +of his powers to annihilate me, would n't amount to anything. +Now, how little do I look like being carried away trembling? Let +the Judge go on; and after he is done with his half-hour, I want +you all, if I can't go home myself, to let me stay and rot here; +and if anything happens to the Judge, if I cannot carry him to +the hotel and put him to bed, let me stay here and rot. I say, +then, here is something extraordinary in this statement. I ask +you if you know any other living man who would make such a +statement? I will ask my friend Casey, over there, if he would +do such a thing? Would he send that out and have his men take it +as the truth? Did the Judge talk of trotting me down to Egypt to +scare me to death? Why, I know this people better than he does. +I was raised just a little east of here. I am a part of this +people. But the Judge was raised farther north, and perhaps he +has some horrid idea of what this people might be induced to do. +But really I have talked about this matter perhaps longer than I +ought, for it is no great thing; and yet the smallest are often +the most difficult things to deal with. The Judge has set about +seriously trying to make the impression that when we meet at +different places I am literally in his clutches--that I am a +poor, helpless, decrepit mouse, and that I can do nothing at all. +This is one of the ways he has taken to create that impression. +I don't know any other way to meet it except this. I don't want +to quarrel with him--to call him a liar; but when I come square +up to him I don't know what else to call him if I must tell the +truth out. I want to be at peace, and reserve all my fighting +powers for necessary occasions. My time now is very nearly out, +and I give up the trifle that is left to the Judge, to let him +set my knees trembling again, if he can. + + + + + +End of Project Gutenberg Etext of The Writings of Abraham Lincoln, Vol 3 + |