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diff --git a/.gitattributes b/.gitattributes new file mode 100644 index 0000000..6833f05 --- /dev/null +++ b/.gitattributes @@ -0,0 +1,3 @@ +* text=auto +*.txt text +*.md text diff --git a/20447.txt b/20447.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..eede579 --- /dev/null +++ b/20447.txt @@ -0,0 +1,22526 @@ +The Project Gutenberg EBook of The Works of Robert G. Ingersoll, Volume +VIII., by Robert Green Ingersoll + +This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with +almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or +re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included +with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org + + +Title: The Works of Robert G. Ingersoll, Volume VIII. + Interviews + +Author: Robert Green Ingersoll + +Release Date: January 25, 2007 [EBook #20447] +[Last updated on May 30, 2007] + +Language: English + +Character set encoding: ASCII + +*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WORKS OF ROBERT G. INGERSOLL *** + + + + +Produced by An Anonymous volunteer + + + + +Transcriber's note: + + Footnotes that describe the subject or circumstances of the interview + are placed immediately after its title, or where they occur in the + narrative. Other footnotes are at the end of the interview. + + The digraph "ae" has been spelled out for clarity. "Employe", used + throughout with no accent, has been replaced by "employee". + "Buechner" appeared with the umlaut in the original. + + Typographical and grammatical errors and misspellings have been + corrected, but 19th-century variants have been retained. Question + marks have been added where required. + + LoC call number: BL2720.A2 + + +[Frontispiece: v8.jpg] + "_With daughters' babes upon his knees, + the white hair mingling with the gold_." + EVA INGERSOLL-BROWN ROBERT G. INGERSOLL BROWN. + + +Dresden Edition + +THE WORKS +OF +_Robert G. Ingersoll_ + +"HAPPINESS IS THE ONLY GOOD, REASON THE ONLY +TORCH, JUSTICE THE ONLY WORSHIP, HUMANITY THE +ONLY RELIGION, AND LOVE THE ONLY PRIEST." + +IN TWELVE VOLUMES +VOLUME VIII. + +INTERVIEWS + +NEW YORK +THE DRESDEN PUBLISHING CO., +C. P. FARRELL +MCMXV + + +COPYRIGHT, 1900 +BY +C. P. FARRELL + +COPYRIGHT, 1901 +BY +THE DRESDEN PUBLISHING CO. + + +CONTENTS OF VOLUME VIII. +INTERVIEWS. + +THE BIBLE AND A FUTURE LIFE, Washington Post + +MRS. VAN COTT, THE REVIVALIST, Buffalo Express + +EUROPEAN TRIP AND GREENBACK QUESTION, Washington Post + +THE PRE-MILLENNIAL CONFERENCE, Buffalo Express + +THE SOLID SOUTH AND RESUMPTION, Cincinnati Commercial + +SUNDAY LAWS OF PITTSBURG, Pittsburg Leader + +POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS, Chicago Times + +POLITICS AND GEN. GRANT, Indianapolis Journal + +POLITICS, RELIGION AND THOMAS PAINE, Chicago Times + +REPLY TO CHICAGO CRITICS, Chicago Tribune + +THE REPUBLICAN VICTORY, New York Herald + +INGERSOLL AND BEECHER, New York Herald + +POLITICAL, Washington Post + +RELIGION IN POLITICS, New York Evening Express + +MIRACLES AND IMMORTALITY, Pittsburg Dispatch + +THE POLITICAL OUTLOOK, Cincinnati Commercial + +MR. BEECHER, MOSES AND THE NEGRO, Brooklyn Eagle + +HADES, DELAWARE AND FREETHOUGHT, Brooklyn Eagle + +A REPLY TO THE REV. MR. LANSING, New Haven Sunday Union + +BEACONSFIELD, LENT AND REVIVALS, Brooklyn Eagle + +ANSWERING THE NEW YORK MINISTERS, Chicago Times + +GUITEAU AND HIS CRIME, Washington Sunday Gazette + +DISTRICT SUFFRAGE, Washington Capital + +FUNERAL OF JOHN G. MILLS AND IMMORTALITY, Washington Post + +STAR ROUTE AND POLITICS, New York Herald + +THE INTERVIEWER, New York Morning Journal + +POLITICS AND PROHIBITION, Chicago Times + +THE REPUBLICAN DEFEAT IN OHIO, Dayton Democrat + +THE CIVIL RIGHTS BILL, Washington National Republican + +JUSTICE HARLAN AND THE CIVIL RIGHTS BILL, Chicago Inter-Ocean + +POLITICS AND THEOLOGY, Denver Tribune + +MORALITY AND IMMORTALITY, Detroit News + +POLITICS, MORMONISM AND MR. BEECHER, Denver News + +FREE TRADE AND CHRISTIANITY, Denver Republican + +THE OATH QUESTION, London Secular Review + +WENDELL PHILLIPS, FITZ JOHN PORTER AND BISMARCK, Chicago Times + +GENERAL SUBJECTS, Kansas City Times + +REPLY TO KANSAS CITY CLERGY, Kansas City Journal + +SWEARING AND AFFIRMING, Buffalo Courier + +REPLY TO A BUFFALO CRITIC, Buffalo Times + +BLASPHEMY, Philadelphia Press + +POLITICS AND BRITISH COLUMBIA, San Francisco Evening Post + +INGERSOLL CATECHISED, San Francisco San Franciscan + +BLAINE'S DEFEAT, Topeka Commonwealth + +BLAINE'S DEFEAT, Louisville Commercial + +PLAGIARISM AND POLITICS, Cleveland Plain Dealer + +RELIGIOUS PREJUDICE, New York Mail and Express + +CLEVELAND AND HIS CABINET, New York Mail and Express + +RELIGION, PROHIBITION AND GEN. GRANT, Iowa State Register + +HELL OR SHEOL AND OTHER SUBJECTS, Boston Evening Record + +INTERVIEWING, POLITICS AND SPIRITUALISM, Cleveland Plain Dealer + +MY BELIEF, Philadelphia Times + +SOME LIVE TOPICS, New York Truth Seeker + +THE PRESIDENT AND THE SENATE, Chicago Inter-Ocean + +ATHEISM AND CITIZENSHIP, New York Herald + +THE LABOR QUESTION, Cincinnati Enquirer + +RAILROADS AND POLITICS, Cincinnati Times Star + +PROHIBITION, Boston Evening Traveler + +HENRY GEORGE AND LABOR, New York Herald + +LABOR QUESTION AND SOCIALISM, New York World + +HENRY GEORGE AND SOCIALISM, Chicago Times + +REPLY TO THE REV. B. F. MORSE, New York Herald + +INGERSOLL ON McGLYNN, Brooklyn Citizen + +TRIAL OF THE CHICAGO ANARCHISTS, New York Mail and Express + +THE STAGE AND THE PULPIT, New York Truth Seeker + +ROSCOE CONKLING, New York Herald + +THE CHURCH AND THE STATE, New York Dramatic Mirror + +PROTECTION--FREE TRADE, New York Press + +LABOR AND TARIFF REFORM, New York Press + +CLEVELAND AND THURMAN, New York Press + +THE REPUBLICAN PLATFORM OF 1888, New York Press + +JAMES G. BLAINE AND POLITICS, New York Press + +THE MILLS BILL, New York Press + +SOCIETY AND ITS CRIMINALS, New York World + +WOMAN'S RIGHT TO DIVORCE, New York World + +SECULARISM, Toronto Secular Thought + +SUMMER RECREATION--MR. GLADSTONE, Unpublished + +PROHIBITION, New York World + +ROBERT ELSMERE, New York World + +WORKING GIRLS, New York World + +PROTECTION FOR AMERICAN ACTORS, New York Star + +LIBERALS AND LIBERALISM, Toronto Secular Thought + +POPE LEO XIII., New York Herald + +THE SACREDNESS OF THE SABBATH, New York Journal + +THE WEST AND SOUTH, Indianapolis Journal + +THE WESTMINSTER CREED AND OTHER SUBJECTS, Rochester Post-Express + +SHAKESPEARE AND BACON, Minneapolis Tribune + +GROWING OLD GRACEFULLY, AND PRESBYTERIANISM, Toledo Blade + +CREEDS, New York Morning Advertiser + +THE TENDENCY OF MODERN THOUGHT, Chicago Tribune + +WOMAN SUFFRAGE, HORSE RACING, AND MONEY, Chicago Inter-Ocean + +MISSIONARIES, Cleveland Press + +MY BELIEF AND UNBELIEF, Toledo Blade + +MUST RELIGION GO? New York Evening Advertiser + +WORD PAINTING AND COLLEGE EDUCATION, Indianapolis News + +PERSONAL MAGNETISM AND THE SUNDAY QUESTION, Cincinnati Commercial + Gazette + +AUTHORS, Kansas City Star + +INEBRIETY, Unpublished + +MIRACLES, THEOSOPHY AND SPIRITUALISM, Unpublished + +TOLSTOY AND LITERATURE, Buffalo Evening Express + +WOMAN IN POLITICS, New York Advertiser + +SPIRITUALISM, St. Louis Globe-Democrat + +PLAYS AND PLAYERS, New York Dramatic Mirror + +WOMAN, A Fragment + +STRIKES, EXPANSION AND OTHER SUBJECTS, New York, May 5, 1893 + +SUNDAY A DAY OF PLEASURE, New York Times + +THE PARLIAMENT OF RELIGIONS, New York Herald + +CLEVELAND'S HAWAIIAN POLICY, Chicago Inter-Ocean + +ORATORS AND ORATORY, London Sketch + +CATHOLICISM AND PROTESTANTISM.--THE POPE.--THE A. P. A., AGNOSTICISM + AND THE CHURCH, New York Herald + +WOMAN AND HER DOMAIN, Grand Rapids Democrat + +PROFESSOR SWING, Chicago Inter-Ocean + +SENATOR SHERMAN AND HIS BOOK, St. Louis Globe-Democrat + +REPLY TO THE CHRISTIAN ENDEAVORERS, New York Journal + +SPIRITUALISM, New York Journal + +A LITTLE OF EVERYTHING, Rochester Herald + +IS LIFE WORTH LIVING?--CHRISTIAN SCIENCE AND POLITICS, Chicago + Inter-Ocean + +VIVISECTION, New York Evening Telegram + +DIVORCE, New York Herald + +MUSIC, NEWSPAPERS, LYNCHING AND ARBITRATION, Chicago Inter-Ocean + +A VISIT TO SHAW'S GARDEN, St. Louis Republic + +THE VENEZUELA BOUNDARY DISCUSSION AND THE WHIPPING POST, New York + Journal + +COLONEL SHEPARD'S STAGE HORSES, New York Morning Advertiser + +A REPLY TO THE REV. L. A. BANKS, Cleveland Plain Dealer + +CUBA--ZOLA AND THEOSOPHY, Louisville Courier-Journal + +HOW TO BECOME AN ORATOR, New York Sun + +JOHN RUSSELL YOUNG AND EXPANSION, Philadelphia Press + +PSYCHICAL RESEARCH AND THE BIBLE, New York Mind + +THIS CENTURY'S GLORIES, New York Sun + +CAPITAL PUNISHMENT AND THE WHIPPING POST, Chicago Tribune + +EXPANSION AND TRUSTS, Philadelphia North American + + +INTERVIEWS + + +THE BIBLE AND A FUTURE LIFE + +_Question_. Colonel, are your views of religion based upon the +Bible? + +_Answer_. I regard the Bible, especially the Old Testament, the +same as I do most other ancient books, in which there is some truth, +a great deal of error, considerable barbarism and a most plentiful +lack of good sense. + +_Question_. Have you found any other work, sacred or profane, +which you regard as more reliable? + +_Answer_. I know of no book less so, in my judgment. + +_Question_. You have studied the Bible attentively, have you not? + +_Answer_. I have read the Bible. I have heard it talked about a +good deal, and am sufficiently well acquainted with it to justify +my own mind in utterly rejecting all claims made for its divine +origin. + +_Question_. What do you base your views upon? + +_Answer_. On reason, observation, experience, upon the discoveries +in science, upon observed facts and the analogies properly growing +out of such facts. I have no confidence in anything pretending to +be outside, or independent of, or in any manner above nature. + +_Question_. According to your views, what disposition is made of +man after death? + +_Answer_. Upon that subject I know nothing. It is no more wonderful +that man should live again than he now lives; upon that question +I know of no evidence. The doctrine of immortality rests upon +human affection. We love, therefore we wish to live. + +_Question_. Then you would not undertake to say what becomes of +man after death? + +_Answer_. If I told or pretended to know what becomes of man after +death, I would be as dogmatic as are theologians upon this question. +The difference between them and me is, I am honest. I admit that +I do not know. + +_Question_. Judging by your criticism of mankind, Colonel, in your +recent lecture, you have not found his condition very satisfactory? + +_Answer_. Nature, outside of man, so far as I know, is neither +cruel nor merciful. I am not satisfied with the present condition +of the human race, nor with the condition of man during any period +of which we have any knowledge. I believe, however, the condition +of man is improved, and this improvement is due to his own exertions. +I do not make nature a being. I do not ascribe to nature +intentions. + +_Question_. Is your theory, Colonel, the result of investigation +of the subject? + +_Answer_. No one can control his own opinion or his own belief. +My belief was forced upon me by my surroundings. I am the product +of all circumstances that have in any way touched me. I believe +in this world. I have no confidence in any religion promising joys +in another world at the expense of liberty and happiness in this. +At the same time, I wish to give others all the rights I claim for +myself. + +_Question_. If I asked for proofs for your theory, what would you +furnish? + +_Answer_. The experience of every man who is honest with himself, +every fact that has been discovered in nature. In addition to +these, the utter and total failure of all religionists in all +countries to produce one particle of evidence showing the existence +of any supernatural power whatever, and the further fact that the +people are not satisfied with their religion. They are continually +asking for evidence. They are asking it in every imaginable way. +The sects are continually dividing. There is no real religious +serenity in the world. All religions are opponents of intellectual +liberty. I believe in absolute mental freedom. Real religion with +me is a thing not of the head, but of the heart; not a theory, not +a creed, but a life. + +_Question_. What punishment, then, is inflicted upon man for his +crimes and wrongs committed in this life? + +_Answer_. There is no such thing as intellectual crime. No man +can commit a mental crime. To become a crime it must go beyond +thought. + +_Question_. What punishment is there for physical crime? + +_Answer_. Such punishment as is necessary to protect society and +for the reformation of the criminal. + +_Question_. If there is only punishment in this world, will not +some escape punishment? + +_Answer_. I admit that all do not seem to be punished as they +deserve. I also admit that all do not seem to be rewarded as they +deserve; and there is in this world, apparently, as great failures +in matter of reward as in matter of punishment. If there is another +life, a man will be happier there for acting according to his +highest ideal in this. But I do not discern in nature any effort +to do justice. + +--_The Post_, Washington, D. C., 1878. + + +MRS. VAN COTT, THE REVIVALIST + +_Question_. I see, Colonel, that in an interview published this +morning, Mrs. Van Cott (the revivalist), calls you "a poor barking +dog." Do you know her personally? + +_Answer_. I have never met or seen her. + +_Question_. Do you know the reason she applied the epithet? + +_Answer_. I suppose it to be the natural result of what is called +vital piety; that is to say, universal love breeds individual +hatred. + +_Question_. Do you intend making any reply to what she says? + +_Answer_. I have written her a note of which this is a copy: + + _Buffalo, Feb. 24th, 1878._ +MRS. VAN COTT; + +My dear Madam:--Were you constrained by the love of Christ to call +a man who has never injured you "a poor barking dog?" Did you make +this remark as a Christian, or as a lady? Did you say these words +to illustrate in some faint degree the refining influence upon +women of the religion you preach? + +What would you think of me if I should retort, using your language, +changing only the sex of the last word? + +I have the honor to remain, + +Yours truly, + +R. G. INGERSOLL + +_Question_. Well, what do you think of the religious revival system +generally? + +_Answer_. The fire that has to be blown all the time is a poor +thing to get warm by. I regard these revivals as essentially +barbaric. I think they do no good, but much harm, they make innocent +people think they are guilty, and very mean people think they are +good. + +_Question_. What is your opinion concerning women as conductors +of these revivals? + +_Answer_. I suppose those engaged in them think they are doing +good. They are probably honest. I think, however, that neither +men nor women should be engaged in frightening people into heaven. +That is all I wish to say on the subject, as I do not think it +worth talking about. + +--_The Express_, Buffalo, New York, Feb., 1878. + + +EUROPEAN TRIP AND GREENBACK QUESTION + +_Question_. What did you do on your European trip, Colonel? + +_Answer_. I went with my family from New York to Southampton, +England, thence to London, and from London to Edinburgh. In Scotland +I visited every place where Burns had lived, from the cottage where +he was born to the room where he died. I followed him from the +cradle to the coffin. I went to Stratford-upon-Avon for the purpose +of seeing all that I could in any way connected with Shakespeare; +next to London, where we visited again all the places of interest, +and thence to Paris, where we spent a couple of weeks in the +Exposition. + +_Question_. And what did you think of it? + +_Answer_. So far as machinery--so far as the practical is concerned, +it is not equal to ours in Philadelphia; in art it is incomparably +beyond it. I was very much gratified to find so much evidence in +favor of my theory that the golden age in art is in front of us; +that mankind has been advancing, that we did not come from a perfect +pair and immediately commence to degenerate. The modern painters +and sculptors are far better and grander than the ancient. I think +we excel in fine arts as much as we do in agricultural implements. +Nothing pleased me more than the painting from Holland, because +they idealized and rendered holy the ordinary avocations of life. +They paint cottages with sweet mothers and children; they paint +homes. They are not much on Ariadnes and Venuses, but they paint +good women. + +_Question_. What did you think of the American display? + +_Answer_. Our part of the Exposition is good, but nothing to what +is should and might have been, but we bring home nearly as many +medals as we took things. We lead the world in machinery and in +ingenious inventions, and some of our paintings were excellent. + +_Question_. Colonel, crossing the Atlantic back to America, what +do you think of the Greenback movement? + +_Answer_. In regard to the Greenback party, in the first place, +I am not a believer in miracles. I do not believe that something +can be made out of nothing. The Government, in my judgment, cannot +create money; the Government can give its note, like an individual, +and the prospect of its being paid determines its value. We have +already substantially resumed. Every piece of property that has +been shrinking has simply been resuming. We expended during the +war--not for the useful, but for the useless, not to build up, but +to destroy--at least one thousand million dollars. The Government +was an enormous purchaser; when the war ceased the industries of +the country lost their greatest customer. As a consequence there +was a surplus of production, and consequently a surplus of labor. +At last we have gotten back, and the country since the war has +produced over and above the cost of production, something near the +amount that was lost during the war. Our exports are about two +hundred million dollars more than our imports, and this is a healthy +sign. There are, however, five or six hundred thousand men, +probably, out of employment; as prosperity increases this number +will decrease. I am in favor of the Government doing something to +ameliorate the condition of these men. I would like to see +constructed the Northern and Southern Pacific railroads; this would +give employment at once to many thousands, and homes after awhile +to millions. All the signs of the times to me are good. The +wretched bankrupt law, at last, is wiped from the statute books, +and honest people in a short time can get plenty of credit. This +law should have been repealed years before it was. It would have +been far better to have had all who have gone into bankruptcy during +these frightful years to have done so at once. + +_Question_. What will be the political effect of the Greenback +movement? + +_Answer_. The effect in Maine has been to defeat the Republican +party. I do not believe any party can permanently succeed in the +United States that does not believe in and advocate actual money. +I want to see the greenback equal with gold the world round. A +money below par keeps the people below par. No man can possibly +be proud of a country that is not willing to pay its debts. Several +of the States this fall may be carried by the Greenback party, but +if I have a correct understanding of their views, that party cannot +hold any State for any great length of time. But all the men of +wealth should remember that everybody in the community has got, in +some way, to be supported. I want to see them so that they can +support themselves by their own labor. In my judgment real prosperity +will begin with actual resumption, because confidence will then +return. If the workingmen of the United States cannot make their +living, cannot have the opportunity to labor, they have got to be +supported in some way, and in any event, I want to see a liberal +policy inaugurated by the Government. I believe in improving rivers +and harbors. + +I do not believe the trans-continental commerce of this country +should depend on one railroad. I want new territories opened. I +want to see American steamships running to all the great ports of +the world. I want to see our flag flying on all the seas and in +all the harbors. We have the best country, and, in my judgment, +the best people in the world, and we ought to be the most prosperous +nation on the earth. + +_Question_. Then you only consider the Greenback movement a +temporary thing? + +_Answer_. Yes; I do not believe that there is anything permanent +in anything that is not sound, that has not a perfectly sound +foundation, and I mean sound, sound in every sense of that word. +It must be wise and honest. We have plenty of money; the trouble +is to get it. If the Greenbackers will pass a law furnishing all +of us with collaterals, there certainly would be no trouble about +getting the money. Nothing can demonstrate more fully the +plentifulness of money than the fact that millions of four per +cent. bonds have been taken in the United States. The trouble is, +business is scarce. + +_Question_. But do you not think the Greenback movement will help +the Democracy to success in 1880? + +_Answer_. I think the Greenback movement will injure the Republican +party much more than the Democratic party. Whether that injury +will reach as far as 1880 depends simply upon one thing. If +resumption--in spite of all the resolutions to the contrary-- +inaugurates an era of prosperity, as I believe and hope it will, +then it seems to me that the Republican party will be as strong in +the North as in its palmiest days. Of course I regard most of the +old issues as settled, and I make this statement simply because I +regard the financial issue as the only living one. + +Of course, I have no idea who will be the Democratic candidate, +but I suppose the South will be solid for the Democratic nominee, +unless the financial question divides that section of the country. + +_Question_. With a solid South do you not think the Democratic +nominee will stand a good chance? + +_Answer_. Certainly, he will stand the best chance if the Democracy +is right on the financial question; if it will cling to its old +idea of hard money, he will. If the Democrats will recognize that +the issues of the war are settled, then I think that party has the +best chance. + +_Question_. But if it clings to soft money? + +_Answer_. Then I think it will be beaten, if by soft money it +means the payment of one promise with another. + +_Question_. You consider Greenbackers inflationists, do you not? + +_Answer_. I suppose the Greenbackers to be the party of inflation. +I am in favor of inflation produced by industry. I am in favor of +the country being inflated with corn, with wheat, good houses, +books, pictures, and plenty of labor for everybody. I am in favor +of being inflated with gold and silver, but I do not believe in +the inflation of promise, expectation and speculation. I sympathize +with every man who is willing to work and cannot get it, and I +sympathize to that degree that I would like to see the fortunate +and prosperous taxed to support his unfortunate brother until labor +could be found. + +The Greenback party seems to think credit is just as good as gold. +While the credit lasts this is so; but the trouble is, whenever it +is ascertained that the gold is gone or cannot be produced the +credit takes wings. The bill of a perfectly solvent bank may +circulate for years. Now, because nobody demands the gold on that +bill it doesn't follow that the bill would be just as good without +any gold behind it. The idea that you can have the gold whenever +you present the bill gives it its value. To illustrate: A poor +man buys soup tickets. He is not hungry at the time of purchase, +and will not be for some hours. During those hours the Greenback +gentlemen argue that there is no use of keeping any soup on hand +with which to redeem these tickets, and from this they further +argue that if they can be good for a few hours without soup, why +not forever? And they would be, only the holder gets hungry. +Until he is hungry, of course, he does not care whether any soup +is on hand or not, but when he presents his ticket he wants his +soup, and the idea that he can have the soup when he does present +the ticket gives it its value. And so I regard bank notes, without +gold and silver, as of the same value as tickets without soup. + +--_The Post_, Washington, D. C., 1878. + + +THE PRE-MILLENNIAL CONFERENCE. + +_Question_. What do you think of the Pre-Millennial Conference +that was held in New York City recently? + +_Answer_. Well, I think that all who attended it were believers +in the Bible, and any one who believes in prophecies and looks to +their fulfillment will go insane. A man that tries from Daniel's +ram with three horns and five tails and his deformed goats to +ascertain the date of the second immigration of Christ to this +world is already insane. It all shows that the moment we leave +the realm of fact and law we are adrift on the wide and shoreless +sea of theological speculation. + +_Question_. Do you think there will be a second coming? + +_Answer_. No, not as long as the church is in power. Christ will +never again visit this earth until the Freethinkers have control. +He will certainly never allow another church to get hold of him. +The very persons who met in New York to fix the date of his coming +would despise him and the feeling would probably be mutual. In +his day Christ was an Infidel, and made himself unpopular by +denouncing the church as it then existed. He called them liars, +hypocrites, thieves, vipers, whited sepulchres and fools. From +the description given of the church in that day, I am afraid that +should he come again, he would be provoked into using similar +language. Of course, I admit there are many good people in the +church, just as there were some good Pharisees who were opposed to +the crucifixion. + +--_The Express_, Buffalo, New York, Nov. 4th, 1878. + + +THE SOLID SOUTH AND RESUMPTION. + +_Question_. Colonel, to start with, what do you think of the solid +South? + +_Answer_. I think the South is naturally opposed to the Republican +party; more, I imagine, to the name, than to the personnel of the +organization. But the South has just as good friends in the +Republican party as in the Democratic party. I do not think there +are any Republicans who would not rejoice to see the South prosperous +and happy. I know of none, at least. They will have to get over +the prejudices born of isolation. We lack direct and constant +communication. I do not recollect having seen a newspaper from +the Gulf States for a long time. They, down there, may imagine +that the feeling in the North is the same as during the war. But +it certainly is not. The Northern people are anxious to be friendly; +and if they can be, without a violation of their principles, they +will be. Whether it be true or not, however, most of the Republicans +of the North believe that no Republican in the South is heartily +welcome in that section, whether he goes there from the North, or +is a Southern man. Personally, I do not care anything about partisan +politics. I want to see every man in the United States guaranteed +the right to express his choice at the ballot-box, and I do not +want social ostracism to follow a man, no matter how he may vote. +A solid South means a solid North. A hundred thousand Democratic +majority in South Carolina means fifty thousand Republican majority +in New York in 1880. I hope the sections will never divide, simply +as sections. But if the Republican party is not allowed to live +in the South, the Democratic party certainly will not be allowed +to succeed in the North. I want to treat the people of the South +precisely as though the Rebellion had never occurred. I want all +that wiped from the slate of memory, and all I ask of the Southern +people is to give the same rights to the Republicans that we are +willing to give to them and have given to them. + +_Question_. How do you account for the results of the recent +elections? + +_Answer_. The Republican party won the recent election simply +because it was for honest money, and it was in favor of resumption. +And if on the first of January next, we resume all right, and +maintain resumption, I see no reason why the Republican party should +not succeed in 1880. The Republican party came into power at the +commencement of the Rebellion, and necessarily retained power until +its close; and in my judgment, it will retain power so long as in +the horizon of credit there is a cloud of repudiation as large as +a man's hand. + +_Question_. Do you think resumption will work out all right? + +_Answer_. I do. I think that on the first of January the greenback +will shake hands with gold on an equality, and in a few days +thereafter will be worth just a little bit more. Everything has +resumed, except the Government. All the property has resumed, all +the lands, bonds and mortgages and stocks. All these things resumed +long ago--that is to say, they have touched the bottom. Now, there +is no doubt that the party that insists on the Government paying +all its debts will hold control, and no one will get his hand on +the wheel who advocates repudiation in any form. There is one +thing we must do, though. We have got to put more silver in our +dollars. I do not think you can blame the New York banks--any bank +--for refusing to take eighty-eight cents for a dollar. Neither +can you blame any depositor who puts gold in the bank for demanding +gold in return. Yes, we must have in the silver dollar a dollar's +worth of silver. + +--_The Commercial_, Cincinnati, Ohio, November, 1878. + + +THE SUNDAY LAWS OF PITTSBURG.* + +_Question_. Colonel, what do you think of the course the Mayor +has pursued toward you in attempting to stop your lecture? + +_Answer_. I know very little except what I have seen in the morning +paper. As a general rule, laws should be enforced or repealed; +and so far as I am personally concerned, I shall not so much complain +of the enforcing of the law against Sabbath breaking as of the fact +that such a law exists. We have fallen heir to these laws. They +were passed by superstition, and the enlightened people of to-day +should repeal them. Ministers should not expect to fill their +churches by shutting up other places. They can only increase their +congregations by improving their sermons. They will have more +hearers when they say more worth hearing. I have no idea that the +Mayor has any prejudice against me personally and if he only enforces +the law, I shall have none against him. If my lectures were free +the ministers might have the right to object, but as I charge one +dollar admission and they nothing, they ought certainly be able to +compete with me. + +_Question_. Don't you think it is the duty of the Mayor, as chief +executive of the city laws, to enforce the ordinances and pay no +attention to what the statutes say? + +_Answer_. I suppose it to be the duty of the Mayor to enforce the +ordinance of the city and if the ordinance of the city covers the +same ground as the law of the State, a conviction under the ordinance +would be a bar to prosecution under the State law. + +_Question_. If the ordinance exempts scientific, literary and +historical lectures, as it is said it does, will not that exempt +you? + +_Answer_. Yes, all my lectures are historical; that is, I speak +of many things that have happened. They are scientific because +they are filled with facts, and they are literary of course. I +can conceive of no address that is neither historical nor scientific, +except sermons. They fail to be historical because they treat of +things that never happened and they are certainly not scientific, +as they contain no facts. + +_Question_. Suppose they arrest you what will you do? + +_Answer_. I will examine the law and if convicted will pay the +fine, unless I think I can reverse the case by appeal. Of course +I would like to see all these foolish laws wiped from the statute +books. I want the law so that everybody can do just as he pleases +on Sunday, provided he does not interfere with the rights of others. +I want the Christian, the Jew, the Deist and the Atheist to be +exactly equal before the law. I would fight for the right of the +Christian to worship God in his own way just as quick as I would +for the Atheist to enjoy music, flowers and fields. I hope to see +the time when even the poor people can hear the music of the finest +operas on Sunday. One grand opera with all its thrilling tones, +will do more good in touching and elevating the world than ten +thousand sermons on the agonies of hell. + +_Question_. Have you ever been interfered with before in delivering +Sunday lectures? + +_Answer_. No, I postponed a lecture in Baltimore at the request +of the owners of a theatre because they were afraid some action +might be taken. That is the only case. I have delivered lectures +on Sunday in the principal cities of the United States, in New +York, Boston, Buffalo, Chicago, San Francisco, Cincinnati and many +other places. I lectured here last winter; it was on Sunday and +I heard nothing of its being contrary to law. I always supposed +my lectures were good enough to be delivered on the most sacred +days. + +--_The Leader_, Pittsburg, Pa., October 27, 1879. + +[* The manager of the theatre, where Col. Ingersoll lectured, was fined +fifty dollars which Col. Ingersoll paid.] + + +POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS. + +_Question_. What do you think about the recent election, and what +will be its effect upon political matters and the issues and +candidates of 1880? + +_Answer_. I think the Republicans have met with this almost +universal success on account, first, of the position taken by the +Democracy on the currency question; that is to say, that party was +divided, and was willing to go in partnership with anybody, whatever +their doctrines might be, for the sake of success in that particular +locality. The Republican party felt it of paramount importance +not only to pay the debt, but to pay it in that which the world +regards as money. The next reason for the victory is the position +assumed by the Democracy in Congress during the called session. +The threats they then made of what they would do in the event that +the executive did not comply with their demands, showed that the +spirit of the party had not been chastened to any considerable +extent by the late war. The people of this country will not, in +my judgment, allow the South to take charge of this country until +they show their ability to protect the rights of citizens in their +respective States. + +_Question_. Then, as you regard the victories, they are largely +due to a firm adherence to principle, and the failure of the +Democratic party is due to their abandonment of principle, and +their desire to unite with anybody and everything, at the sacrifice +of principle, to attain success? + +_Answer_. Yes. The Democratic party is a general desire for office +without organization. Most people are Democrats because they hate +something, most people are Republicans because they love something. + +_Question_. Do you think the election has brought about any +particular change in the issues that will be involved in the campaign +of 1880? + +_Answer_. I think the only issue is who shall rule the country. + +_Question_. Do you think, then, the question of State Rights, hard +or soft money and other questions that have been prominent in the +campaign are practically settled, and so regarded by the people? + +_Answer_. I think the money question is, absolutely. I think the +question of State Rights is dead, except that it can still be used +to defeat the Democracy. It is what might be called a convenient +political corpse. + +_Question_. Now, to leave the political field and go to the +religious at one jump--since your last visit here much has been +said and written and published to the effect that a great change, +or a considerable change at least, had taken place in your religious, +or irreligious views. I would like to know if that is so? + +_Answer_. The only change that has occurred in my religious views +is the result of finding more and more arguments in favor of my +position, and, as a consequence, if there is any difference, I am +stronger in my convictions than ever before. + +_Question_. I would like to know something of the history of your +religious views? + +_Answer_. I may say right here that the Christian idea that any +God can make me his friend by killing mine is about a great mistake +as could be made. They seem to have the idea that just as soon as +God kills all the people that a person loves, he will then begin +to love the Lord. What drew my attention first to these questions +was the doctrine of eternal punishment. This was so abhorrent to +my mind that I began to hate the book in which it was taught. +Then, in reading law, going back to find the origin of laws, I +found one had to go but a little way before the legislator and +priest united. This led me to a study of a good many of the +religions of the world. At first I was greatly astonished to find +most of them better than ours. I then studied our own system to +the best of my ability, and found that people were palming off upon +children and upon one another as the inspired word of God a book +that upheld slavery, polygamy and almost every other crime. Whether +I am right or wrong, I became convinced that the Bible is not an +inspired book; and then the only question for me to settle was as +to whether I should say what I believed or not. This really was +not the question in my mind, because, before even thinking of such +a question, I expressed my belief, and I simply claim that right +and expect to exercise it as long as I live. I may be damned for +it in the next world, but it is a great source of pleasure to me +in this. + +_Question_. It is reported that you are the son of a Presbyterian +minister? + +_Answer_. Yes, I am the son of a New School Presbyterian minister. + +_Question_. About what age were you when you began this investigation +which led to your present convictions? + +_Answer_. I cannot remember when I believed the Bible doctrine of +eternal punishment. I have a dim recollection of hating Jehovah +when I was exceedingly small. + +_Question_. Then your present convictions began to form themselves +while you were listening to the teachings of religion as taught by +your father? + +_Answer_. Yes, they did. + +_Question_. Did you discuss the matter with him? + +_Answer_. I did for many years, and before he died he utterly gave +up the idea that this life is a period of probation. He utterly +gave up the idea of eternal punishment, and before he died he had +the happiness of believing that God was almost as good and generous +as he was himself. + +_Question_. I suppose this gossip about a change in your religious +views arose or was created by the expression used at your brother's +funeral, "In the night of death hope sees a star and listening love +can hear the rustle of a wing"? + +_Answer_. I never willingly will destroy a solitary human hope. +I have always said that I did not know whether man was or was not +immortal, but years before my brother died, in a lecture entitled +"The Ghosts," which has since been published, I used the following +words: "The idea of immortality, that like a sea has ebbed and +flowed in the human heart, with its countless waves of hope and +fear, beating against the shores and rocks of time and fate, was +not born of any book, nor of any creed, nor of any religion. It +was born of human affection, and it will continue to ebb and flow +beneath the mists and clouds of doubt and darkness as long as love +kisses the lips of death. It is the rainbow--Hope, shining upon +the tears of grief." + +_Question_. The great objection to your teaching urged by your +enemies is that you constantly tear down, and never build up? + +_Answer_. I have just published a little book entitled, "Some +Mistakes of Moses," in which I have endeavored to give most of the +arguments I have urged against the Pentateuch in a lecture I +delivered under that title. The motto on the title page is, "A +destroyer of weeds, thistles and thorns is a benefactor, whether +he soweth grain or not." I cannot for my life see why one should +be charged with tearing down and not rebuilding simply because he +exposes a sham, or detects a lie. I do not feel under any obligation +to build something in the place of a detected falsehood. All I +think I am under obligation to put in the place of a detected lie +is the detection. Most religionists talk as if mistakes were +valuable things and they did not wish to part with them without a +consideration. Just how much they regard lies worth a dozen I do +not know. If the price is reasonable I am perfectly willing to +give it, rather than to see them live and give their lives to the +defence of delusions. I am firmly convinced that to be happy here +will not in the least detract from our happiness in another world +should we be so fortunate as to reach another world; and I cannot +see the value of any philosophy that reaches beyond the intelligent +happiness of the present. There may be a God who will make us +happy in another world. If he does, it will be more than he has +accomplished in this. I suppose that he will never have more than +infinite power and never have less than infinite wisdom, and why +people should expect that he should do better in another world than +he has in this is something that I have never been able to explain. +A being who has the power to prevent it and yet who allows thousands +and millions of his children to starve; who devours them with +earthquakes; who allows whole nations to be enslaved, cannot in my +judgment be implicitly be depended upon to do justice in another +world. + +_Question_. How do the clergy generally treat you? + +_Answer_. Well, of course there are the same distinctions among +clergymen as among other people. Some of them are quite respectable +gentlemen, especially those with whom I am not acquainted. I think +that since the loss of my brother nothing could exceed the +heartlessness of the remarks made by the average clergyman. There +have been some noble exceptions, to whom I feel not only thankful +but grateful; but a very large majority have taken this occasion +to say most unfeeling and brutal things. I do not ask the clergy +to forgive me, but I do request that they will so act that I will +not have to forgive them. I have always insisted that those who +love their enemies should at least tell the truth about their +friends, but I suppose, after all, that religion must be supported +by the same means as those by which it was founded. Of course, +there are thousands of good ministers, men who are endeavoring to +make the world better, and whose failure is no particular fault of +their own. I have always been in doubt as to whether the clergy +were a necessary or an unnecessary evil. + +_Question_. I would like to have a positive expression of your +views as to a future state? + +_Answer_. Somebody asked Confucius about another world, and his +reply was: "How should I know anything about another world when +I know so little of this?" For my part, I know nothing of any +other state of existence, either before or after this, and I have +never become personally acquainted with anybody that did. There +may be another life, and if there is, the best way to prepare for +it is by making somebody happy in this. God certainly cannot afford +to put a man in hell who has made a little heaven in this world. +I propose simply to take my chances with the rest of the folks, +and prepare to go where the people I am best acquainted with will +probably settle. I cannot afford to leave the great ship and sneak +off to shore in some orthodox canoe. I hope there is another life, +for I would like to see how things come out in the world when I am +dead. There are some people I would like to see again, and hope +there are some who would not object to seeing me; but if there is +no other life I shall never know it. I do not remember a time when +I did not exist; and if, when I die, that is the end, I shall not +know it, because the last thing I shall know is that I am alive, +and if nothing is left, nothing will be left to know that I am +dead; so that so far as I am concerned I am immortal; that is to +say, I cannot recollect when I did not exist, and there never will +be a time when I shall remember that I do not exist. I would like +to have several millions of dollars, and I may say that I have a +lively hope that some day I may be rich, but to tell you the truth +I have very little evidence of it. Our hope of immortality does +not come from any religion, but nearly all religions come from that +hope. The Old Testament, instead of telling us that we are immortal, +tells us how we lost immortality. You will recollect that if Adam +and Eve could have gotten to the Tree of Life, they would have +eaten of its fruit and would have lived forever; but for the purpose +of preventing immortality God turned them out of the Garden of +Eden, and put certain angels with swords or sabres at the gate to +keep them from getting back. The Old Testament proves, if it proves +anything--which I do not think it does--that there is no life after +this; and the New Testament is not very specific on the subject. +There were a great many opportunities for the Saviour and his +apostles to tell us about another world, but they did not improve +them to any great extent; and the only evidence, so far as I know, +about another life is, first, that we have no evidence; and, +secondly, that we are rather sorry that we have not, and wish we +had. That is about my position. + +_Question_. According to your observation of men, and your reading +in relation to the men and women of the world and of the church, +if there is another world divided according to orthodox principles +between the orthodox and heterodox, which of the two that are known +as heaven and hell would contain, in your judgment, the most good +society? + +_Answer_. Since hanging has got to be a means of grace, I would +prefer hell. I had a thousand times rather associate with the +Pagan philosophers than with the inquisitors of the Middle Ages. +I certainly should prefer the worst man in Greek or Roman history +to John Calvin; and I can imagine no man in the world that I would +not rather sit on the same bench with than the Puritan fathers and +the founders of orthodox churches. I would trade off my harp any +minute for a seat in the other country. All the poets will be in +perdition, and the greatest thinkers, and, I should think, most of +the women whose society would tend to increase the happiness of +man; nearly all the painters, nearly all the sculptors, nearly all +the writers of plays, nearly all the great actors, most of the best +musicians, and nearly all the good fellows--the persons who know +stories, who can sing songs, or who will loan a friend a dollar. +They will mostly all be in that country, and if I did not live +there permanently, I certainly would want it so I could spend my +winter months there. But, after all, what I really want to do is +to destroy the idea of eternal punishment. That doctrine subverts +all ideas of justice. That doctrine fills hell with honest men, +and heaven with intellectual and moral paupers. That doctrine +allows people to sin on credit. That doctrine allows the basest +to be eternally happy and the most honorable to suffer eternal +pain. I think of all doctrines it is the most infinitely infamous, +and would disgrace the lowest savage; and any man who believes it, +and has imagination enough to understand it, has the heart of a +serpent and the conscience of a hyena. + +_Question_. Your objective point is to destroy the doctrine of +hell, is it? + +_Answer_. Yes, because the destruction of that doctrine will do +away with all cant and all pretence. It will do away with all +religious bigotry and persecution. It will allow every man to +think and to express his thought. It will do away with bigotry in +all its slimy and offensive forms. + +--_Chicago Tribune_, November 14, 1879. + + +POLITICS AND GEN. GRANT + +_Question_. Some people have made comparisons between the late +Senators O. P. Morton and Zach. Chandler. What did you think of +them, Colonel? + +_Answer_. I think Morton had the best intellectual grasp of a +question of any man I ever saw. There was an infinite difference +between the two men. Morton's strength lay in proving a thing; +Chandler's in asserting it. But Chandler was a strong man and no +hypocrite. + +_Question_. Have you any objection to being interviewed as to your +ideas of Grant, and his position before the people? + +_Answer_. I have no reason for withholding my views on that or +any other subject that is under public discussion. My idea is that +Grant can afford to regard the presidency as a broken toy. It +would add nothing to his fame if he were again elected, and would +add nothing to the debt of gratitude which the people feel they +owe him. I do not think he will be a candidate. I do not think +he wants it. There are men who are pushing him on their own account. +Grant was a great soldier. He won the respect of the civilized +world. He commanded the largest army that ever fought for freedom, +and to make him President would not add a solitary leaf to the +wreath of fame already on his brow; and should he be elected, the +only thing he could do would be to keep the old wreath from fading. + +I do not think his reputation can ever be as great in any direction +as in the direction of war. He has made his reputation and has +lived his great life. I regard him, confessedly, as the best +soldier the Anglo-Saxon blood has produced. I do not know that it +necessarily follows because he is a great soldier he is great in +other directions. Probably some of the greatest statesmen in the +world would have been the worst soldiers. + +_Question_. Do you regard him as more popular now than ever before? + +_Answer_. I think that his reputation is certainly greater and +higher than when he left the presidency, and mainly because he has +represented this country with so much discretion and with such +quiet, poised dignity all around the world. He has measured himself +with kings, and was able to look over the heads of every one of +them. They were not quite as tall as he was, even adding the crown +to their original height. I think he represented us abroad with +wonderful success. One thing that touched me very much was, that +at a reception given him by the workingmen of Birmingham, after he +had been received by royalty, he had the courage to say that that +reception gave him more pleasure than any other. He has been +throughout perfectly true to the genius of our institutions, and +has not upon any occasion exhibited the slightest toadyism. Grant +is a man who is not greatly affected by either flattery or abuse. + +_Question_. What do you believe to be his position in regard to +the presidency? + +_Answer_. My own judgment is that he does not care. I do not +think he has any enemies to punish, and I think that while he was +President he certainly rewarded most of his friends. + +_Question_. What are your views as to a third term? + +_Answer_. I have no objection to a third term on principle, but +so many men want the presidency that it seems almost cruel to give +a third term to anyone. + +_Question_. Then, if there is no objection to a third term, what +about a fourth? + +_Answer_. I do not know that that could be objected to, either. +We have to admit, after all, that the American people, or at least +a majority of them, have a right to elect one man as often as they +please. Personally, I think it should not be done unless in the +case of a man who is prominent above the rest of his fellow-citizens, +and whose election appears absolutely necessary. But I frankly +confess I cannot conceive of any political situation where one man +is a necessity. I do not believe in the one-man-on-horseback idea, +because I believe in all the people being on horseback. + +_Question_. What will be the effect of the enthusiastic receptions +that are being given to General Grant? + +_Answer_. I think these ovations show that the people are resolved +not to lose the results of the great victories of the war, and that +they make known this determination by their attention to General +Grant. I think that if he goes through the principal cities of +this country the old spirit will be revived everywhere, and whether +it makes him President or not the result will be to make the election +go Republican. The revival of the memories of the war will bring +the people of the North together as closely as at any time since +that great conflict closed, not in the spirit of hatred, or malice +or envy, but in generous emulation to preserve that which was fairly +won. I do not think there is any hatred about it, but we are +beginning to see that we must save the South ourselves, and that +that is the only way we can save the nation. + +_Question_. But suppose they give the same receptions in the South? + +_Answer_. So much the better. + +_Question_. Is there any split in the solid South? + +_Answer_. Some of the very best people in the South are apparently +disgusted with following the Democracy any longer, and would hail +with delight any opportunity they could reasonably take advantage +of to leave the organization, if they could do so without making +it appear that they were going back on Southern interests, and this +opportunity will come when the South becomes enlightened, and sees +that it has no interests except in common with the whole country. +That I think they are beginning to see. + +_Question_. How do you like the administration of President Hayes? + +_Answer_. I think its attitude has greatly improved of late. +There are certain games of cards--pedro, for instance, where you +can not only fail to make something, but be set back. I think that +Hayes's veto messages very nearly got him back to the commencement +of the game--that he is now almost ready to commence counting, and +make some points. His position before the country has greatly +improved, but he will not develop into a dark horse. My preference +is, of course, still for Blaine. + +_Question_. Where do you think it is necessary the Republican +candidate should come from to insure success? + +_Answer_. Somewhere out of Ohio. I think it will go to Maine, +and for this reason: First of all, Blaine is certainly a competent +man of affairs, a man who knows what to do at the time; and then +he has acted in such a chivalric way ever since the convention at +Cincinnati, that those who opposed him most bitterly, now have for +him nothing but admiration. I think John Sherman is a man of +decided ability, but I do not believe the American people would +make one brother President, while the other is General of the Army. +It would be giving too much power to one family. + +_Question_. What are your conclusions as to the future of the +Democratic party? + +_Answer_. I think the Democratic party ought to disband. I think +they would be a great deal stronger disbanded, because they would +get rid of their reputation without decreasing. + +_Question_. But if they will not disband? + +_Answer_. Then the next campaign depends undoubtedly upon New York +and Indiana. I do not see how they can very well help nominating +a man from Indiana, and by that I mean Hendricks. You see the +South has one hundred and thirty-eight votes, all supposed to be +Democratic; with the thirty-five from New York and fifteen from +Indiana they would have just three to spare. Now, I take it, that +the fifteen from Indiana are just about as essential as the thirty- +five from New York. To lack fifteen votes is nearly as bad as +being thirty-five short, and so far as drawing salary is concerned +it is quite as bad. Mr. Hendricks ought to know that he holds the +key to Indiana, and that there cannot be any possibility of carrying +this State for Democracy without him. He has tried running for +the vice-presidency, which is not much of a place anyhow--I would +about as soon be vice-mother-in-law--and my judgment is that he +knows exactly the value of his geographical position. New York is +divided to that degree that it would be unsafe to take a candidate +from that State; and besides, New York has become famous for +furnishing defeated candidates for the Democracy. I think the man +must come from Indiana. + +_Question_. Would the Democracy of New York unite on Seymour? + +_Answer_. You recollect what Lincoln said about the powder that +had been shot off once. I do not remember any man who has once +made a race for the presidency and been defeated ever being again +nominated. + +_Question_. What about Bayard and Hancock as candidates? + +_Answer_. I do not see how Bayard could possibly carry Indiana, +while his own State is too small and too solidly Democratic. My +idea of Bayard is that he has not been good enough to be popular, +and not bad enough to be famous. The American people will never +elect a President from a State with a whipping-post. As to General +Hancock, you may set it down as certain that the South will never +lend their aid to elect a man who helped to put down the Rebellion. +It would be just the same as the effort to elect Greeley. It cannot +be done. I see, by the way, that I am reported as having said that +David Davis, as the Democratic candidate, could carry Illinois. +I did say that in 1876, he could have carried it against Hayes; +but whether he could carry Illinois in 1880 would depend altogether +upon who runs against him. The condition of things has changed +greatly in our favor since 1876. + +--_The Journal_, Indianapolis, Ind., November, 1879. + + +POLITICS, RELIGION AND THOMAS PAINE. + +_Question_. You have traveled about this State more or less, +lately, and have, of course, observed political affairs here. Do +you think that Senator Logan will be able to deliver this State to +the Grant movement according to the understood plan? + +_Answer_. If the State is really for Grant, he will, and if it is +not, he will not. Illinois is as little "owned" as any State in +this Union. Illinois would naturally be for Grant, other things +being equal, because he is regarded as a citizen of this State, +and it is very hard for a State to give up the patronage naturally +growing out of the fact that the President comes from that State. + +_Question_. Will the instructions given to delegates be final? + +_Answer_. I do not think they will be considered final at all; +neither do I think they will be considered of any force. It was +decided at the last convention, in Cincinnati, that the delegates +had a right to vote as they pleased; that each delegate represented +the district of the State that sent him. The idea that a State +convention can instruct them as against the wishes of their +constituents smacks a little too much of State sovereignty. The +President should be nominated by the districts of the whole country, +and not by massing the votes by a little chicanery at a State +convention, and every delegate ought to vote what he really believes +to be the sentiment of his constituents, irrespective of what the +State convention may order him to do. He is not responsible to +the State convention, and it is none of the State convention's +business. This does not apply, it may be, to the delegates at +large, but to all the others it certainly must apply. It was so +decided at the Cincinnati convention, and decided on a question +arising about this same Pennsylvania delegation. + +_Question_. Can you guess as to what the platform in going to +contain? + +_Answer_. I suppose it will be a substantial copy of the old one. +I am satisfied with the old one with one addition. I want a plank +to the effect that no man shall be deprived of any civil or political +right on account of his religious or irreligious opinions. The +Republican party having been foremost in freeing the body ought to +do just a little something now for the mind. After having wasted +rivers of blood and treasure uncounted, and almost uncountable, to +free the cage, I propose that something ought to be done for the +bird. Every decent man in the United States would support that +plank. People should have a right to testify in courts, whatever +their opinions may be, on any subject. Justice should not shut +any door leading to truth, and as long as just views neither affect +a man's eyesight or his memory, he should be allowed to tell his +story. And there are two sides to this question, too. The man is +not only deprived of his testimony, but the commonwealth is deprived +of it. There should be no religious test in this country for +office; and if Jehovah cannot support his religion without going +into partnership with a State Legislature, I think he ought to give +it up. + +_Question_. Is there anything new about religion since you were +last here? + +_Answer_. Since I was here I have spoken in a great many cities, +and to-morrow I am going to do some missionary work at Milwaukee. +Many who have come to scoff have remained to pray, and I think that +my labors are being greatly blessed, and all attacks on me so far +have been overruled for good. I happened to come in contact with +a revival of religion, and I believe what they call an "outpouring" +at Detroit, under the leadership of a gentleman by the name of +Pentecost. He denounced me as God's greatest enemy. I had always +supposed that the Devil occupied that exalted position, but it +seems that I have, in some way, fallen heir to his shoes. Mr. +Pentecost also denounced all business men who would allow any +advertisements or lithographs of mine to hang in their places of +business, and several of these gentlemen thus appealed to took the +advertisements away. The result of all this was that I had the +largest house that ever attended a lecture in Detroit. Feeling +that ingratitude is a crime, I publicly returned thanks to the +clergy for the pains they had taken to give me an audience. And +I may say, in this connection, that if the ministers do God as +little good as they do me harm, they had better let both of us +alone. I regard them as very good, but exceedingly mistaken men. +They do not come much in contact with the world, and get most of +their views by talking with the women and children of their +congregations. They are not permitted to mingle freely with society. +They cannot attend plays nor hear operas. I believe some of them +have ventured to minstrel shows and menageries, where they confine +themselves strictly to the animal part of the entertainment. But, +as a rule, they have very few opportunities of ascertaining what +the real public opinion is. They read religious papers, edited by +gentlemen who know as little about the world as themselves, and +the result of all this is that they are rather behind the times. +They are good men, and would like to do right if they only knew +it, but they are a little behind the times. There is an old story +told of a fellow who had a post-office in a small town in North +Carolina, and he being the only man in the town who could read, a +few people used to gather in the post-office on Sunday, and he +would read to them a weekly paper that was published in Washington. +He commenced always at the top of the first column and read right +straight through, articles, advertisements, and all, and whenever +they got a little tired of reading he would make a mark of red +ochre and commence at that place the next Sunday. The result was +that the papers came a great deal faster than he read them, and it +was about 1817 when they struck the war of 1812. The moment they +got to that, every one of them jumped up and offered to volunteer. +All of which shows that they were patriotic people, but a little +show, and somewhat behind the times. + +_Question_. How were you pleased with the Paine meeting here, and +its results? + +_Answer_. I was gratified to see so many people willing at last +to do justice to a great and a maligned man. Of course I do not +claim that Paine was perfect. All I claim is that he was a patriot +and a political philosopher; that he was a revolutionist and an +agitator; that he was infinitely full of suggestive thought, and +that he did more than any man to convince the people of American +not only that they ought to separate from Great Britain, but that +they ought to found a representative government. He has been +despised simply because he did not believe the Bible. I wish to +do what I can to rescue his name from theological defamation. I +think the day has come when Thomas Paine will be remembered with +Washington, Franklin and Jefferson, and that the American people +will wonder that their fathers could have been guilty of such base +ingratitude. + +--_Chicago Times_, February 8, 1880. + + +REPLY TO CHICAGO CRITICS. + +_Question_. Have you read the replies of the clergy to your recent +lecture in this city on "What Must we do to be Saved?" and if so +what do you think of them? + +_Answer_. I think they dodge the point. The real point is this: +If salvation by faith is the real doctrine of Christianity, I asked +on Sunday before last, and I still ask, why didn't Matthew tell +it? I still insist that Mark should have remembered it, and I +shall always believe that Luke ought, at least, to have noticed +it. I was endeavoring to show that modern Christianity has for +its basis an interpolation. I think I showed it. The only gospel +on the orthodox side is that of John, and that was certainly not +written, or did not appear in its present form, until long after +the others were written. + +I know very well that the Catholic Church claimed during the Dark +Ages, and still claims, that references had been made to the gospels +by persons living in the first, second, and third centuries; but +I believe such manuscripts were manufactured by the Catholic Church. +For many years in Europe there was not one person in twenty thousand +who could read and write. During that time the church had in its +keeping the literature of our world. They interpolated as they +pleased. They created. They destroyed. In other words, they did +whatever in their opinion was necessary to substantiate the faith. + +The gentlemen who saw fit to reply did not answer the question, +and I again call upon the clergy to explain to the people why, if +salvation depends upon belief on the Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew +didn't mention it. Some one has said that Christ didn't make known +this doctrine of salvation by belief or faith until after his +resurrection. Certainly none of the gospels were written until +after his resurrection; and if he made that doctrine known after +his resurrection, and before his ascension, it should have been +in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, as well as in John. + +The replies of the clergy show that they have not investigated the +subject; that they are not well acquainted with the New Testament. +In other words, they have not read it except with the regulation +theological bias. + +There is one thing I wish to correct here. In an editorial in the +_Tribune_ it was stated that I had admitted that Christ was beyond +and above Buddha, Zoroaster, Confucius, and others. I did not say +so. Another point was made against me, and those who made it seemed +to think it was a good one. In my lecture I asked why it was that +the disciples of Christ wrote in Greek, whereas, if fact, they +understood only Hebrew. It is now claimed that Greek was the +language of Jerusalem at that time; that Hebrew had fallen into +disuse; that no one understood it except the literati and the highly +educated. If I fell into an error upon this point it was because +I relied upon the New Testament. I find in the twenty-first chapter +of the Acts an account of Paul having been mobbed in the city of +Jerusalem; that he was protected by a chief captain and some +soldiers; that, while upon the stairs of the castle to which he +was being taken for protection, he obtained leave from the captain +to speak unto the people. In the fortieth verse of that chapter +I find the following: + +"And when he had given him license, Paul stood on the stairs and +beckoned with the hand unto the people. And when there was made +a great silence, he spake unto them in the Hebrew tongue, saying," + +And then follows the speech of Paul, wherein he gives an account of +his conversion. It seems a little curious to me that Paul, for +the purpose of quieting a mob, would speak to that mob in an unknown +language. If I were mobbed in the city of Chicago, and wished to +defend myself with an explanation, I certainly would not make that +explanation in Choctaw, even if I understood that tongue. My +present opinion is that I would speak in English; and the reason +I would speak in English is because that language is generally +understood in this city, and so I conclude from the account in the +twenty-first chapter of the Acts that Hebrew was the language of +Jerusalem at that time, or Paul would not have addressed the mob +in that tongue. + +_Question_. Did you read Mr. Courtney's answer? + +_Answer_. I read what Mr. Courtney read from others, and think +some of his quotations very good; and have no doubt that the authors +will feel complimented by being quoted. There certainly is no need +of my answering Dr. Courtney; sometime I may answer the French +gentlemen from whom he quoted. + +_Question_. But what about there being "belief" in Matthew? + +_Answer_. Mr. Courtney says that certain people were cured of +diseases on account of faith. Admitting that mumps, measles, and +whooping-cough could be cured in that way, there is not even a +suggestion that salvation depended upon a like faith. I think he +can hardly afford to rely upon the miracles of the New Testament +to prove his doctrine. There is one instance in which a miracle +was performed by Christ without his knowledge; and I hardly think +that even Mr. Courtney would insist that any faith could have been +great enough for that. The fact is, I believe that all these +miracles were ascribed to Christ long after his death, and that +Christ never, at any time or place, pretended to have any supernatural +power whatever. Neither do I believe that he claimed any supernatural +origin. He claimed simply to be a man; no less, no more. I do +not believe Mr. Courtney is satisfied with his own reply. + +_Question_. And now as to Prof. Swing? + +_Answer_. Mr. Swing has been out of the orthodox church so long +that he seems to have forgotten the reasons for which he left it. +I do not believe there is an orthodox minister in the city of +Chicago who will agree with Mr. Swing that salvation by faith is +no longer preached. Prof. Swing seems to think it of no importance +who wrote the gospel of Matthew. In this I agree with him. Judging +from what he said there is hardly difference enough of opinion +between us to justify a reply on his part. He, however, makes one +mistake. I did not in the lecture say one word about tearing down +churches. I have no objection to people building all the churches +they wish. While I admit it is a pretty sight to see children on +a morning in June going through the fields to the country church, +I still insist that the beauty of that sight does not answer the +question how it is that Matthew forgot to say anything about +salvation through Christ. Prof. Swing is a man of poetic temperament, +but this is not a poetic question. + +_Question_. How did the card of Dr. Thomas strike you? + +_Answer_. I think the reply of Dr. Thomas is in the best possible +spirit. I regard him to-day as the best intellect in the Methodist +denomination. He seems to have what is generally understood as a +Christian spirit. He has always treated me with perfect fairness, +and I should have said long ago many grateful things, had I not +feared I might hurt him with his own people. He seems to be by +nature a perfectly fair man; and I know of no man in the United +States for whom I have a profounder respect. Of course, I don't +agree with Dr. Thomas. I think in many things he is mistaken. +But I believe him to be perfectly sincere. There is one trouble +about him--he is growing; and this fact will no doubt give great +trouble to many of his brethren. Certain Methodist hazel-brush +feel a little uneasy in the shadow of this oak. To see the difference +between him and some others, all that is necessary is to read his +reply, and then read the remarks made at the Methodist ministers' +meeting on the Monday following. Compared with Dr. Thomas, they +are as puddles by the sea. There is the same difference that there +is between sewers and rivers, cesspools and springs. + +_Question_. What have you to say to the remarks of the Rev. Dr. +Jewett before the Methodist ministers' meeting? + +_Answer_. I think Dr. Jewett is extremely foolish. I did not say +that I would commence suit against a minister for libel. I can +hardly conceive of a proceeding that would be less liable to produce +a dividend. The fact about it is, that the Rev. Mr. Jewett seems +to think anything true that he hears against me. Mr. Jewett is +probably ashamed of what he said by this time. He must have known +it to be entirely false. It seems to me by this time even the most +bigoted should lose their confidence in falsehood. Of course there +are times when a falsehood well told bridges over quite a difficulty, +but in the long run you had better tell the truth, even if you swim +the creek. I am astonished that these ministers were willing to +exhibit their wounds to the world. I supposed of course I would +hit some, but I had no idea of wounding so many. + +_Question_. Mr. Crafts stated that you were in the habit of swearing +in company and before your family? + +_Answer_. I often swear. In other words, I take the name of God +in vain; that is to say, I take it without any practical thing +resulting from it, and in that sense I think most ministers are +guilty of the same thing. I heard an old story of a clergyman who +rebuked a neighbor for swearing, to whom the neighbor replied, "You +pray and I swear, but as a matter of fact neither of us means +anything by it." As to the charge that I am in the habit of using +indecent language in my family, no reply is needed. I am willing +to leave that question to the people who know us both. Mr. Crafts +says he was told this by a lady. This cannot by any possibility +be true, for no lady will tell a falsehood. Besides, if this woman +of whom he speaks was a lady, how did she happen to stay where +obscene language was being used? No lady ever told Mr. Crafts any +such thing. It may be that a lady did tell him that I used profane +language. I admit that I have not always spoken of the Devil in +a respectful way; that I have sometimes referred to his residence +when it was not a necessary part of the conversation, and that a +divers times I have used a good deal of the terminology of the +theologian when the exact words of the scientist might have done +as well. But if by swearing is meant the use of God's name in +vain, there are very few preachers who do not swear more than I +do, if by "in vain" is meant without any practical result. I leave +Mr. Crafts to cultivate the acquaintance of the unknown lady, +knowing as I do, that after they have talked this matter over again +they will find that both have been mistaken. + +I sincerely regret that clergymen who really believe that an infinite +God is on their side think it necessary to resort to such things +to defeat one man. According to their idea, God is against me, +and they ought to have confidence in this infinite wisdom and +strength to suppose that he could dispose of one man, even if they +failed to say a word against me. Had you not asked me I should +have said nothing to you on these topics. Such charges cannot hurt +me. I do not believe it possible for such men to injure me. No +one believes what they say, and the testimony of such clergymen +against an Infidel is no longer considered of value. I believe it +was Goethe who said, "I always know that I am traveling when I hear +the dogs bark." + +_Question_. Are you going to make a formal reply to their sermons? + +_Answer_. Not unless something better is done than has been. Of +course, I don't know what another Sabbath may bring forth. I am +waiting. But of one thing I feel perfectly assured; that no man +in the United States, or in the world, can account for the fact, +if we are to be saved only by faith in Christ, that Matthew forgot +it, that Luke said nothing about it, and that Mark never mentioned +it except in two passages written by _another_ person. Until that +is answered, as one grave-digger says to the other in "Hamlet," I +shall say, "Ay, tell me that and unyoke." In the meantime I wish +to keep on the best terms with all parties concerned. I cannot +see why my forgiving spirit fails to gain their sincere praise. + +--_Chicago Tribune_, September 30, 1880. + + +THE REPUBLICAN VICTORY. + +_Question_. Do you really think, Colonel, that the country has +just passed through a crisis? + +_Answer_. Yes; there was a crisis and a great one. The question +was whether a Northern or Southern idea of the powers and duties +of the Federal Government was to prevail. The great victory of +yesterday means that the Rebellion was not put down on the field +of war alone, but that we have conquered in the realm of thought. +The bayonet has been justified by argument. No party can ever +succeed in this country that even whispers "State Sovereignty." +That doctrine has become odious. The sovereignty of the State +means a Government without power, and citizens without protection. + +_Question_. Can you see any further significance in the present +Republican victory other than that the people do not wish to change +the general policy of the present administration? + +_Answer_. Yes; the people have concluded that the lips of America +shall be free. There never was free speech at the South, and there +never will be until the people of that section admit that the Nation +is superior to the State, and that all citizens have equal rights. +I know of hundreds who voted the Republican ticket because they +regarded the South as hostile to free speech. The people were +satisfied with the financial policy of the Republicans, and they +feared a change. The North wants honest money--gold and silver. +The people are in favor of honest votes, and they feared the +practices of the Democratic party. The tissue ballot and shotgun +policy made them hesitate to put power in the hands of the South. +Besides, the tariff question made thousands and thousands of votes. +As long as Europe has slave labor, and wherever kings and priests +rule, the laborer will be substantially a slave. We must protect +ourselves. If the world were free, trade would be free, and the +seas would be the free highways of the world. The great objects +of the Republican party are to preserve all the liberty we have, +protect American labor, and to make it the undisputed duty of the +Government to protect every citizen at home and abroad. + +_Question_. What do you think was the main cause of the Republican +sweep? + +_Answer_. The wisdom of the Republicans and the mistakes of the +Democrats. The Democratic party has for twenty years underrated +the intelligence, the patriotism and the honesty of the American +people. That party has always looked upon politics as a trade, +and success as the last act of a cunning trick. It has had no +principles, fixed or otherwise. It has always been willing to +abandon everything but its prejudices. It generally commences +where it left off and then goes backward. In this campaign English +was a mistake, Hancock was another. Nothing could have been more +incongruous than yoking a Federal soldier with a peace-at-any-price +Democrat. Neither could praise the other without slandering himself, +and the blindest partisan could not like them both. But, after +all, I regard the military record of English as fully equal to the +views of General Hancock on the tariff. The greatest mistake that +the Democratic party made was to suppose that a campaign could be +fought and won by slander. The American people like fair play and +they abhor ignorant and absurd vituperation. The continent knew +that General Garfield was an honest man; that he was in the grandest +sense a gentleman; that he was patriotic, profound and learned; +that his private life was pure; that his home life was good and +kind and true, and all the charges made and howled and screeched +and printed and sworn to harmed only those who did the making and +the howling, the screeching and the swearing. I never knew a man +in whose perfect integrity I had more perfect confidence, and in +less than one year even the men who have slandered him will agree +with me. + +_Question_. How about that "personal and confidential letter"? +(The Morey letter.) + +_Answer_. It was as stupid, as devilish, as basely born as +godfathered. It is an exploded forgery, and the explosion leaves +dead and torn upon the field the author and his witnesses. + +_Question_. Is there anything in the charge that the Republican +party seeks to change our form of government by gradual centralization? + +_Answer_. Nothing whatever. We want power enough in the Government +to protect, not to destroy, the liberties of the people. The +history of the world shows that burglars have always opposed an +increase of the police. + +--_New York Herald_, November 5, 1880. + + +INGERSOLL AND BEECHER.* + +[* The sensation created by the speech of the Rev. Henry Ward Beecher +at the Academy of Music, in Brooklyn, when he uttered a brilliant eulogy +of Col. Robert Ingersoll and publicly shook hands with him has not yet +subsided. A portion of the religious world is thoroughly stirred up at +what it considers a gross breach of orthodox propriety. This feeling +is especially strong among the class of positivists who believe that + + "An Atheist's laugh's a poor exchange + For Deity offended." + +Many believe that Mr. Beecher is at heart in full sympathy and +accord with Ingersoll's teachings, but has not courage enough to +say so at the sacrifice of his pastoral position. The fact that +these two men are the very head and front of their respective +schools of thought makes the matter an important one. The denouncement +of the doctrine of eternal punishment, followed by the scene at +the Academy, has about it an aroma of suggestiveness that might +work much harm without an explanation. Since Colonel Ingersoll's +recent attack upon the _personnel_ of the clergy through the "Shorter +Catechism" the pulpit has been remarkably silent regarding the +great atheist. "Is the keen logic and broad humanity of Ingersoll +converting the brain and heart of Christendom?" was recently asked. +Did the hand that was stretched out to him on the stage of the +Academy reach across the chasm which separates orthodoxy from +infidelity? + +Desiring to answer the last question if possible, a _Herald_ reporter +visited Mr. Beecher and Colonel Ingersoll to learn their opinion +of each other. Neither of the gentlemen was aware that the other +was being interviewed.] + +_Question_. What is your opinion of Mr. Beecher? + +_Answer_. I regard him as the greatest man in any pulpit of the +world. He treated me with a generosity that nothing can exceed. +He rose grandly above the prejudices supposed to belong to his +class, and acted as only a man could act without a chain upon his +brain and only kindness in his heart. + +I told him that night that I congratulated the world that it had +a minister with an intellectual horizon broad enough and a mental +sky studded with stars of genius enough to hold all creeds in scorn +that shocked the heart of man. I think that Mr. Beecher has +liberalized the English-speaking people of the world. + +I do not think he agrees with me. He holds to many things that I +most passionately deny. But in common, we believe in the liberty +of thought. + +My principal objections to orthodox religion are two--slavery here +and hell hereafter. I do not believe that Mr. Beecher on these +points can disagree with me. The real difference between us is-- +he says God, I say Nature. The real agreement between us is--we +both say--Liberty. + +_Question_. What is his forte? + +_Answer_. He is of a wonderfully poetic temperament. In pursuing +any course of thought his mind is like a stream flowing through +the scenery of fairyland. The stream murmurs and laughs while the +banks grow green and the vines blossom. + +His brain is controlled by his heart. He thinks in pictures. With +him logic means mental melody. The discordant is the absurd. + +For years he has endeavored to hide the dungeon of orthodoxy with +the ivy of imagination. Now and then he pulls for a moment the +leafy curtain aside and is horrified to see the lizards, snakes, +basilisks and abnormal monsters of the orthodox age, and then he +utters a great cry, the protest of a loving, throbbing heart. + +He is a great thinker, a marvelous orator, and, in my judgment, +greater and grander than any creed of any church. + +Besides all this, he treated me like a king. Manhood is his forte, +and I expect to live and die his friend. + +BEECHER ON INGERSOLL. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of Colonel Ingersoll? + +_Answer_. I do not think there should be any misconception as to +my motive for indorsing Mr. Ingersoll. I never saw him before that +night, when I clasped his hand in the presence of an assemblage of +citizens. Yet I regard him as one of the greatest men of this age. + +_Question_. Is his influence upon the world good or otherwise? + +_Answer_. I am an ordained clergyman and believe in revealed +religion. I am, therefore, bound to regard all persons who do not +believe in revealed religion as in error. But on the broad platform +of human liberty and progress I was bound to give him the right +hand of fellowship. I would do it a thousand times over. I do +not know Colonel Ingersoll's religious views precisely, but I have +a general knowledge of them. He has the same right to free thought +and free speech that I have. I am not that kind of a coward who +has to kick a man before he shakes hands with him. If I did so I +would have to kick the Methodists, Roman Catholics and all other +creeds. I will not pitch into any man's religion as an excuse for +giving him my hand. I admire Ingersoll because he is not afraid +to speak what he honestly thinks, and I am only sorry that he does +not think as I do. I never heard so much brilliancy and pith put +into a two hour speech as I did on that night. I wish my whole +congregation had been there to hear it. I regret that there are +not more men like Ingersoll interested in the affairs of the nation. +I do not wish to be understood as indorsing skepticism in any form. + +--_New York Herald_, November 7, 1880. + + +POLITICAL. + +_Question_. Is it true, as rumored, that you intend to leave +Washington and reside in New York? + +_Answer_. No, I expect to remain here for years to come, so far +as I can now see. My present intention is certainly to stay here +during the coming winter. + +_Question_. Is this because you regard Washington as the pleasantest +and most advantageous city for a residence? + +_Answer_. Well, in the first place, I dislike to move. In the +next place, the climate is good. In the third place, the political +atmosphere has been growing better of late, and when you consider +that I avoid one dislike and reap the benefits of two likes, you +can see why I remain. + +_Question_. Do you think that the moral atmosphere will improve +with the political atmosphere? + +_Answer_. I would hate to say that this city is capable of any +improvement in the way of morality. We have a great many churches, +a great many ministers, and, I believe, some retired chaplains, so +I take it that the moral tone of the place could hardly be bettered. +One majority in the Senate might help it. Seriously, however, I +think that Washington has as high a standard of morality as any +city in the Union. And it is one of the best towns in which to +loan money without collateral in the world. + +_Question_. Do you know this from experience? + +_Answer_. This I have been told [was the solemn answer.] + +_Question_. Do you think that the political features of the incoming +administration will differ from the present? + +_Answer_. Of course, I have no right to speak for General Garfield. +I believe his administration will be Republican, at the same time +perfectly kind, manly, and generous. He is a man to harbor no +resentment. He knows that it is the duty of statesmanship to remove +causes of irritation rather then punish the irritated. + +_Question_. Do I understand you to imply that there will be a +neutral policy, as it were, towards the South? + +_Answer_. No, I think that there will be nothing neutral about +it. I think that the next administration will be one-sided--that +is, it will be on the right side. I know of no better definition +for a compromise than to say it is a proceeding in which hypocrites +deceive each other. I do not believe that the incoming administration +will be neutral in anything. The American people do not like +neutrality. They would rather a man were on the wrong side than +on neither. And, in my judgment, there is no paper so utterly +unfair, malicious and devilish, as one that claims to be neutral. +No politician is as bitter as a neutral politician. Neutrality is +generally used as a mask to hide unusual bitterness. Sometimes it +hides what it is--nothing. It always stands for hollowness of head +or bitterness of heart, sometimes for both. My idea is--and that +is the only reason I have the right to express it--that General +Garfield believes in the platform adopted by the Republican party. +He believes in free speech, in honest money, in divorce of church +and state, and he believes in the protection of American citizens +by the Federal Government wherever the flag flies. He believes +that the Federal Government is as much bound to protect the citizen +at home as abroad. I believe he will do the very best he can to +carry these great ideas into execution and make them living realities +in the United States. Personally, I have no hatred toward the +Southern people. I have no hatred toward any class. I hate tyranny, +no matter whether it is South or North; I hate hypocrisy, and I +hate above all things, the spirit of caste. If the Southern people +could only see that they gained as great a victory in the Rebellion +as the North did, and some day they will see it, the whole question +would be settled. The South has reaped a far greater benefit from +being defeated than the North has from being successful, and I +believe some day the South will be great enough to appreciate that +fact. I have always insisted that to be beaten by the right is to +be a victor. The Southern people must get over the idea that they +are insulted simply because they are out-voted, and they ought by +this time to know that the Republicans of the North, not only do +not wish them harm, but really wish them the utmost success. + +_Question_. But has the Republican party all the good and the +Democratic all the bad? + +_Answer_. No, I do not think that the Republican party has all +the good, nor do I pretend that the Democratic party has all the +bad; though I may say that each party comes pretty near it. I +admit that there are thousands of really good fellows in the +Democratic party, and there are some pretty bad people in the +Republican party. But I honestly believe that within the latter +are most of the progressive men of this country. That party has +in it the elements of growth. It is full of hope. It anticipates. +The Democratic party remembers. It is always talking about the +past. It is the possessor of a vast amount of political rubbish, +and I really believe it has outlived its usefulness. I firmly +believe that your editor, Mr. Hutchings, could start a better +organization, if he would only turn his attention to it. Just +think for a moment of the number you could get rid of by starting +a new party. A hundred names will probably suggest themselves to +any intelligent Democrat, the loss of which would almost insure +success. Some one has said that a tailor in Boston made a fortune +by advertising that he did not cut the breeches of Webster's statue. +A new party by advertising that certain men would not belong to +it, would have an advantage in the next race. + +_Question_. What, in your opinion, were the causes which led to +the Democratic defeat? + +_Answer_. I think the nomination of English was exceedingly +unfortunate. Indiana, being an October State, the best man in that +State should have been nominated either for President or Vice- +President. Personally, I know nothing of Mr. English, but I have +the right to say that he was exceedingly unpopular. That was +mistake number one. Mistake number two was putting a plank in the +platform insisting upon a tariff for revenue only. That little +word "only" was one of the most frightful mistakes ever made by a +political party. That little word "only" was a millstone around +the neck of the entire campaign. The third mistake was Hancock's +definition of the tariff. It was exceedingly unfortunate, exceedingly +laughable, and came just in the nick of time. The fourth mistake +was the speech of Wade Hampton, I mean the speech that the Republican +papers claim he made. Of course I do not know, personally, whether +it was made or not. If made, it was a great mistake. Mistake +number five was made in Alabama, where they refused to allow a +Greenbacker to express his opinion. That lost the Democrats enough +Greenbackers to turn the scale in Maine, and enough in Indiana to +change that election. Mistake number six was in the charges made +against General Garfield. They were insisted upon, magnified and +multiplied until at last the whole thing assumed the proportions +of a malicious libel. This was a great mistake, for the reason +that a number of Democrats in the United States had most heartily +and cordially indorsed General Garfield as a man of integrity and +great ability. Such indorsements had been made by the leading +Democrats of the North and South, among them Governor Hendricks +and many others I might name. Jere Black had also certified to +the integrity and intellectual grandeur of General Garfield, and +when afterward he certified to the exact contrary, the people +believed that it was a persecution. The next mistake, number seven, +was the Chinese letter. While it lost Garfield California, Nevada, +and probably New Jersey, it did him good in New York. This letter +was the greatest mistake made, because a crime is greater than a +mistake. These, in my judgment, are the principal mistakes made +by the Democratic party in the campaign. Had McDonald been on the +ticket the result might have been different, or had the party united +on some man in New York, satisfactory to the factions, it might +have succeeded. The truth, however, is that the North to-day is +Republican, and it may be that had the Democratic party made no +mistakes whatever the result would have been the same. But that +mistakes were made is now perfectly evident to the blindest partisan. +If the ticket originally suggested, Seymour and McDonald, had been +nominated on an unobjectionable platform, the result might have +been different. One of the happiest days in my life was the day on +which the Cincinnati convention did not nominate Seymour and did +nominate English. I regard General Hancock as a good soldier, but +not particularly qualified to act as President. He has neither +the intellectual training nor the experience to qualify him for +that place. + +_Question_. You have doubtless heard of a new party, Colonel. +What is your idea in regard to it? + +_Answer_. I have heard two or three speak of a new party to be +called the National party, or National Union party, but whether +there is anything in such a movement I have no means of knowing. +Any party in opposition to the Republican, no matter what it may +be called, must win on a new issue, and that new issue will determine +the new party. Parties cannot be made to order. They must grow. +They are the natural offspring of national events. They must embody +certain hopes, they must gratify, or promise to gratify, the feelings +of a vast number of people. No man can make a party, and if a new +party springs into existence it will not be brought forth to gratify +the wishes of a few, but the wants of the many. It has seemed to +me for years that the Democratic party carried too great a load in +the shape of record; that its autobiography was nearly killing it +all the time, and that if it could die just long enough to assume +another form at the resurrection, just long enough to leave a grave +stone to mark the end of its history, to get a cemetery back of +it, that it might hope for something like success. In other words, +that there must be a funeral before there can be victory. Most of +its leaders are worn out. They have become so accustomed to defeat +that they take it as a matter of course; they expect it in the +beginning and seem unconsciously to work for it. There must be +some new ideas, and this only can happen when the party as such +has been gathered to its fathers. I do not think that the advice +of Senator Hill will be followed. He is willing to kill the +Democratic party in the South if we will kill the Republican party +in the North. This puts me in mind of what the rooster said to +the horse: "Let us agree not to step on each other's feet." + +_Question_. Your views of the country's future and prospects must +naturally be rose colored? + +_Answer_. Of course, I look at things through Republican eyes and +may be prejudiced without knowing it. But it really seems to me +that the future is full of great promise. The South, after all, +is growing more prosperous. It is producing more and more every +year, until in time it will become wealthy. The West is growing +almost beyond the imagination of a speculator, and the Eastern and +Middle States are much more than holding their own. We have now +fifty millions of people and in a few years will have a hundred. +That we are a Nation I think is now settled. Our growth will be +unparalleled. I myself expect to live to see as many ships on the +Pacific as on the Atlantic. In a few years there will probably be +ten millions of people living along the Rocky and Sierra Mountains. +It will not be long until Illinois will find her market west of +her. In fifty years this will be the greatest nation on the earth, +and the most populous in the civilized world. China is slowly +awakening from the lethargy of centuries. It will soon have the +wants of Europe, and America will supply those wants. This is a +nation of inventors and there is more mechanical ingenuity in the +United States than on the rest of the globe. In my judgment this +country will in a short time add to its customers hundreds of +millions of the people of the Celestial Empire. So you see, to +me, the future is exceedingly bright. And besides all this, I must +not forget the thing that is always nearest my heart. There is +more intellectual liberty in the United States to-day than ever +before. The people are beginning to see that every citizen ought +to have the right to express himself freely upon every possible +subject. In a little while, all the barbarous laws that now disgrace +the statute books of the States by discriminating against a man +simply because he is honest, will be repealed, and there will be +one country where all citizens will have and enjoy not only equal +rights, but all rights. Nothing gratifies me so much as the growth +of intellectual liberty. After all, the true civilization is where +every man gives to every other, every right that he claims for +himself. + +--_The Post_, Washington, D. C., November 14, 1880. + + +RELIGION IN POLITICS. + +_Question_. How do you regard the present political situation? + +_Answer_. My opinion is that the ideas the North fought for upon +the field have at last triumphed at the ballot-box. For several +years after the Rebellion was put down the Southern ideas traveled +North. We lost West Virginia, New Jersey, Connecticut, New York +and a great many congressional districts in other States. We lost +both houses of Congress and every Southern State. The Southern +ideas reached their climax in 1876. In my judgment the tide has +turned, and hereafter the Northern idea is going South. The young +men are on the Republican side. The old Democrats are dying. The +cradle is beating the coffin. It is a case of life and death, and +life is ahead. The heirs outnumber the administrators. + +_Question_. What kind of a President will Garfield make? + +_Answer_. My opinion is that he will make as good a President as +this nation ever had. He is fully equipped. He is a trained +statesman. He has discussed all the great questions that have +arisen for the last eighteen years, and with great ability. He is +a thorough scholar, a conscientious student, and takes an exceedingly +comprehensive survey of all questions. He is genial, generous and +candid, and has all the necessary qualities of heart and brain to +make a great President. He has no prejudices. Prejudice is the +child and flatterer of ignorance. He is firm, but not obstinate. +The obstinate man wants his own way; the firm man stands by the +right. Andrew Johnson was obstinate--Lincoln was firm. + +_Question_. How do you think he will treat the South? + +_Answer_. Just the same as the North. He will be the President +of the whole country. He will not execute the laws by the compass, +but according to the Constitution. I do not speak for General +Garfield, nor by any authority from his friends. No one wishes to +injure the South. The Republican party feels in honor bound to +protect all citizens, white and black. It must do this in order +to keep its self-respect. It must throw the shield of the Nation +over the weakest, the humblest and the blackest citizen. Any other +course is suicide. No thoughtful Southern man can object to this, +and a Northern Democrat knows that it is right. + +_Question_. Is there a probability that Mr. Sherman will be retained +in the Cabinet? + +_Answer_. I have no knowledge upon that question, and consequently +have nothing to say. My opinion about the Cabinet is, that General +Garfield is well enough acquainted with public men to choose a +Cabinet that will suit him and the country. I have never regarded +it as the proper thing to try and force a Cabinet upon a President. +He has the right to be surrounded by his friends, by men in whose +judgment and in whose friendship he has the utmost confidence, and +I would no more think of trying to put some man in the Cabinet that +I would think of signing a petition that a man should marry a +certain woman. General Garfield will, I believe, select his own +constitutional advisers, and he will take the best he knows. + +_Question_. What, in your opinion, is the condition of the Democratic +party at present? + +_Answer_. It must get a new set of principles, and throw away its +prejudices. It must demonstrate its capacity to govern the country +by governing the States where it is in power. In the presence of +rebellion it gave up the ship. The South must become Republican +before the North will willingly give it power; that is, the great +ideas of nationality are greater than parties, and if our flag is +not large enough to protect every citizen, we must add a few more +stars and stripes. Personally I have no hatreds in this matter. +The present is not only the child of the past, but the necessary +child. A statesman must deal with things as they are. He must +not be like Gladstone, who divides his time between foreign wars +and amendments to the English Book of Common Prayer. + +_Question_. How do you regard the religious question in politics? + +_Answer_. Religion is a personal matter--a matter that each +individual soul should be allowed to settle for itself. No man +shod in the brogans of impudence should walk into the temple of +another man's soul. While every man should be governed by the +highest possible considerations of the public weal, no one has the +right to ask for legal assistance in the support of his particular +sect. If Catholics oppose the public schools I would not oppose +them because they are Catholics, but because I am in favor of the +schools. I regard the public school as the intellectual bread of +life. Personally I have no confidence in any religion that can be +demonstrated only to children. I suspect all creeds that rely +implicitly on mothers and nurses. That religion is the best that +commends itself the strongest to men and women of education and +genius. After all, the prejudices of infancy and the ignorance of +the aged are a poor foundation for any system of morals or faith. +I respect every honest man, and I think more of a liberal Catholic +than of an illiberal Infidel. The religious question should be +left out of politics. You might as well decide questions of art +and music by a ward caucus as to govern the longings and dreams of +the soul by law. I believe in letting the sun shine whether the +weeds grow or not. I can never side with Protestants if they try +to put Catholics down by law, and I expect to oppose both of these +until religious intolerance is regarded as a crime. + +_Question_. Is the religious movement of which you are the chief +exponent spreading? + +_Answer_. There are ten times as many Freethinkers this year as +there were last. Civilization is the child of free thought. The +new world has drifted away from the rotting wharf of superstition. +The politics of this country are being settled by the new ideas of +individual liberty; and parties and churches that cannot accept +the new truths must perish. I want it perfectly understood that +I am not a politician. I believe in liberty and I want to see the +time when every man, woman and child will enjoy every human right. + +The election is over, the passions aroused by the campaign will +soon subside, the sober judgment of the people will, in my opinion, +indorse the result, and time will indorse the indorsement. + +--_The Evening Express_, New York City, November 19, 1880. + + +MIRACLES AND IMMORTALITY. + +_Question_. You have seen some accounts of the recent sermon of +Dr. Tyng on "Miracles," I presume, and if so, what is your opinion +of the sermon, and also what is your opinion of miracles? + +_Answer_. From an orthodox standpoint, I think the Rev. Dr. Tyng +is right. If miracles were necessary eighteen hundred years ago, +before scientific facts enough were known to overthrow hundreds +and thousands of passages in the Bible, certainly they are necessary +now. Dr. Tyng sees clearly that the old miracles are nearly worn +out, and that some new ones are absolutely essential. He takes +for granted that, if God would do a miracle to found his gospel, +he certainly would do some more to preserve it, and that it is in +need of preservation about now is evident. I am amazed that the +religious world should laugh at him for believing in miracles. It +seems to me just as reasonable that the deaf, dumb, blind and lame, +should be cured at Lourdes as at Palestine. It certainly is no +more wonderful that the law of nature should be broken now than +that it was broken several thousand years ago. Dr. Tyng also has +this advantage. The witnesses by whom he proves these miracles +are alive. An unbeliever can have the opportunity of cross- +examination. Whereas, the miracles in the New Testament are +substantiated only by the dead. It is just as reasonable to me +that blind people receive their sight in France as that devils were +made to vacate human bodies in the holy land. + +For one I am exceedingly glad that Dr. Tyng has taken this position. +It shows that he is a believer in a personal God, in a God who is +attending a little to the affairs of this world, and in a God who +did not exhaust his supplies in the apostolic age. It is refreshing +to me to find in this scientific age a gentleman who still believes +in miracles. My opinion is that all thorough religionists will have +to take the ground and admit that a supernatural religion must be +supernaturally preserved. + +I have been asking for a miracle for several years, and have in a +very mild, gentle and loving way, taunted the church for not +producing a little one. I have had the impudence to ask any number +of them to join in a prayer asking anything they desire for the +purpose of testing the efficiency of what is known as supplication. +They answer me by calling my attention to the miracles recorded in +the New Testament. I insist, however, on a new miracle, and, +personally, I would like to see one now. Certainly, the Infinite +has not lost his power, and certainly the Infinite knows that +thousands and hundreds of thousands, if the Bible is true, are now +pouring over the precipice of unbelief into the gulf of hell. One +little miracle would save thousands. One little miracle in Pittsburg, +well authenticated, would do more good than all the preaching ever +heard in this sooty town. The Rev. Dr. Tyng clearly sees this, +and he has been driven to the conclusion, first, that God can do +miracles; second, that he ought to, third, that he has. In this +he is perfectly logical. After a man believes the Bible, after he +believes in the flood and in the story of Jonah, certainly he ought +not to hesitate at a miracle of to-day. When I say I want a miracle, +I mean by that, I want a good one. All the miracles recorded in +the New Testament could have been simulated. A fellow could have +pretended to be dead, or blind, or dumb, or deaf. I want to see +a good miracle. I want to see a man with one leg, and then I want +to see the other leg grow out. + +I would like to see a miracle like that performed in North Carolina. +Two men were disputing about the relative merits of the salve they +had for sale. One of the men, in order to demonstrate that his +salve was better than any other, cut off a dog's tail and applied +a little of the salve to the stump, and, in the presence of the +spectators, a new tail grew out. But the other man, who also had +salve for sale, took up the piece of tail that had been cast away, +put a little salve at the end of that, and a new dog grew out, and +the last heard of those parties they were quarrelling as to who +owned the second dog. Something like that is what I call a miracle. + +_Question_. What do you believe about the immortality of the soul? +Do you believe that the spirit lives as an individual after the +body is dead? + +_Answer_. I have said a great many times that it is no more +wonderful that we should live again than that we do live. Sometimes +I have thought it not quite so wonderful for the reason that we +have a start. But upon that subject I have not the slightest +information. Whether man lives again or not I cannot pretend to +say. There may be another world and there may not be. If there +is another world we ought to make the best of it after arriving +there. If there is not another world, or if there is another world, +we ought to make the best of this. And since nobody knows, all +should be permitted to have their opinions, and my opinion is that +nobody knows. + +If we take the Old Testament for authority, man is not immortal. +The Old Testament shows man how he lost immortality. According to +Genesis, God prevented man from putting forth his hand and eating +of the Tree of Life. It is there stated, had he succeeded, man +would have lived forever. God drove him from the garden, preventing +him eating of this tree, and in consequence man became mortal; so +that if we go by the Old Testament we are compelled to give up +immortality. The New Testament has but little on the subject. In +one place we are told to seek for immortality. If we are already +immortal, it is hard to see why we should go on seeking for it. +In another place we are told that they who are worthy to obtain +that world and the resurrection of the dead, are not given in +marriage. From this one would infer there would be some unworthy +to be raised from the dead. Upon the question of immortality, the +Old Testament throws but little satisfactory light. I do not deny +immortality, nor would I endeavor to shake the belief of anybody +in another life. What I am endeavoring to do is to put out the +fires of hell. If we cannot have heaven without hell, I am in +favor of abolishing heaven. I do not want to go to heaven if one +soul is doomed to agony. I would rather be annihilated. + +My opinion of immortality is this: + +First.--I live, and that of itself is infinitely wonderful. + +Second.--There was a time when I was not, and after I was not, I +was. Third.--Now that I am, I may be again; and it is no more +wonderful that I may be again, if I have been, than that I am, +having once been nothing. If the churches advocated immortality, +if they advocated eternal justice, if they said that man would be +rewarded and punished according to deeds; if they admitted that +some time in eternity there would be an opportunity given to lift +up souls, and that throughout all the ages the angels of progress +and virtue would beckon the fallen upward; and that some time, and +no matter how far away they might put off the time, all the children +of men would be reasonably happy, I never would say a solitary word +against the church, but just as long as they preach that the majority +of mankind will suffer eternal pain, just so long I shall oppose +them; that is to say, as long as I live. + +_Question_. Do you believe in a God; and, if so, what kind of a +God? + +_Answer_. Let me, in the first place, lay a foundation for an +answer. + +First.--Man gets all food for thought through the medium of the +senses. The effect of nature upon the senses, and through the +senses upon the brain, must be natural. All food for thought, +then, is natural. As a consequence of this, there can be no +supernatural idea in the human brain. Whatever idea there is must +have been a natural product. If, then, there is no supernatural +idea in the human brain, then there cannot be in the human brain +an idea of the supernatural. If we can have no idea of the +supernatural, and if the God of whom you spoke is admitted to be +supernatural, then, of course, I can have no idea of him, and I +certainly can have no very fixed belief on any subject about which +I have no idea. + +There may be a God for all I know. There may be thousands of them. +But the idea of an infinite Being outside and independent of nature +is inconceivable. I do not know of any word that would explain my +doctrine or my views upon the subject. I suppose Pantheism is as +near as I could go. I believe in the eternity of matter and in +the eternity of intelligence, but I do not believe in any Being +outside of nature. I do not believe in any personal Deity. I do +not believe in any aristocracy of the air. I know nothing about +origin or destiny. Between these two horizons I live, whether I +wish to or not, and must be satisfied with what I find between +these two horizons. I have never heard any God described that I +believe in. I have never heard any religion explained that I +accept. To make something out of nothing cannot be more absurd +than that an infinite intelligence made this world, and proceeded +to fill it with crime and want and agony, and then, not satisfied +with the evil he had wrought, made a hell in which to consummate +the great mistake. + +_Question_. Do you believe that the world, and all that is in it +came by chance? + +_Answer_. I do not believe anything comes by chance. I regard +the present as the necessary child of a necessary past. I believe +matter is eternal; that it has eternally existed and eternally will +exist. I believe that in all matter, in some way, there is what +we call force; that one of the forms of force is intelligence. I +believe that whatever is in the universe has existed from eternity +and will forever exist. + +Secondly.--I exclude from my philosophy all ideas of chance. Matter +changes eternally its form, never its essence. You cannot conceive +of anything being created. No one can conceive of anything existing +without a cause or with a cause. Let me explain; a thing is not +a cause until an effect has been produced; so that, after all, +cause and effect are twins coming into life at precisely the same +instant, born of the womb of an unknown mother. The Universe in +the only fact, and everything that ever has happened, is happening, +or will happen, are but the different aspects of the one eternal +fact. + +--_The Dispatch_, Pittsburg, Pa., December 11, 1880. + + +THE POLITICAL OUTLOOK. + +_Question_. What phases will the Southern question assume in the +next four years? + +_Answer_. The next Congress should promptly unseat every member +of Congress in whose district there was not a fair and honest +election. That is the first hard work to be done. Let notice, in +this way, be given to the whole country, that fraud cannot succeed. +No man should be allowed to hold a seat by force or fraud. Just +as soon as it is understood that fraud is useless it will be +abandoned. In that way the honest voters of the whole country can +be protected. + +An honest vote settles the Southern question, and Congress has the +power to compel an honest vote, or to leave the dishonest districts +without representation. I want this policy adopted, not only in +the South, but in the North. No man touched or stained with fraud +should be allowed to hold his seat. Send such men home, and let +them stay there until sent back by honest votes. The Southern +question is a Northern question, and the Republican party must +settle it for all time. We must have honest elections, or the +Republic must fall. Illegal voting must be considered and punished +as a crime. + +Taking one hundred and seventy thousand as the basis of representation, +the South, through her astounding increase of colored population, +gains three electoral votes, while the North and East lose three. +Garfield was elected by the thirty thousand colored votes cast in +New York. + +_Question_. Will the negro continue to be the balance of power, +and if so, will it inure to his benefit? + +_Answer_. The more political power the colored man has the better +he will be treated, and if he ever holds the balance of power he +will be treated as well as the balance of our citizens. My idea +is that the colored man should stand on an equality with the white +before the law; that he should honestly be protected in all his +rights; that he should be allowed to vote, and that his vote should +be counted. It is a simple question of honesty. The colored people +are doing well; they are industrious; they are trying to get an +education, and, on the whole, I think they are behaving fully as +well as the whites. They are the most forgiving people in the +world, and about the only real Christians in our country. They +have suffered enough, and for one I am on their side. I think more +of honest black people than of dishonest whites, to say the least +of it. + +_Question_. Do you apprehend any trouble from the Southern leaders +in this closing session of Congress, in attempts to force pernicious +legislation? + +_Answer_. I do not. The Southern leaders know that the doctrine +of State Sovereignty is dead. They know that they cannot depend +upon the Northern Democrat, and they know that the best interests +of the South can only be preserved by admitting that the war settled +the questions and ideas fought for and against. They know that +this country is a Nation, and that no party can possibly succeed +that advocates anything contrary to that. My own opinion is that +most of the Southern leaders are heartily ashamed of the course +pursued by their Northern friends, and will take the first opportunity +to say so. + +_Question_. In what light do you regard the Chinaman? + +_Answer_. I am opposed to compulsory immigration, or cooley or +slave immigration. If Chinamen are sent to this country by +corporations or companies under contracts that amount to slavery +or anything like it or near it, then I am opposed to it. But I am +not prepared to say that I would be opposed to voluntary immigration. +I see by the papers that a new treaty has been agreed upon that +will probably be ratified and be satisfactory to all parties. We +ought to treat China with the utmost fairness. If our treaty is +wrong, amend it, but do so according to the recognized usage of +nations. After what has been said and done in this country I think +there is very little danger of any Chinaman voluntarily coming +here. By this time China must have an exceedingly exalted opinion +of our religion, and of the justice and hospitality born of our +most holy faith. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of making ex-Presidents Senators +for life? + +_Answer_. I am opposed to it. I am against any man holding office +for life. And I see no more reason for making ex-Presidents +Senators, than for making ex-Senators Presidents. To me the idea +is preposterous. Why should ex-Presidents be taken care of? In +this country labor is not disgraceful, and after a man has been +President he has still the right to be useful. I am personally +acquainted with several men who will agree, in consideration of +being elected to the presidency, not to ask for another office +during their natural lives. The people of this country should +never allow a great man to suffer. The hand, not of charity, but +of justice and generosity, should be forever open to those who have +performed great public service. + +But the ex-Presidents of the future may not all be great and good +men, and bad ex-Presidents will not make good Senators. If the +nation does anything, let it give a reasonable pension to ex- +Presidents. No man feels like giving pension, power, or place to +General Grant simply because he was once President, but because he +was a great soldier, and led the armies of the nation to victory. +Make him a General, and retire him with the highest military title. +Let him grandly wear the laurels he so nobly won, and should the +sky at any time be darkened with a cloud of foreign war, this +country will again hand him the sword. Such a course honors the +nation and the man. + +_Question_. Are we not entering upon the era of our greatest +prosperity? + +_Answer_. We are just beginning to be prosperous. The Northern +Pacific Railroad is to be completed. Forty millions of dollars +have just been raised by that company, and new States will soon be +born in the great Northwest. The Texas Pacific will be pushed to +San Diego, and in a few years we will ride in a Pullman car from +Chicago to the City of Mexico. The gold and silver mines are +yielding more and more, and within the last ten years more than +forty million acres of land have been changed from wilderness to +farms. This country is beginning to grow. We have just fairly +entered upon what I believe will be the grandest period of national +development and prosperity. With the Republican party in power; +with good money; with unlimited credit; with the best land in the +world; with ninety thousand miles of railway; with mountains of +gold and silver; with hundreds of thousands of square miles of coal +fields; with iron enough for the whole world; with the best system +of common schools; with telegraph wires reaching every city and +town, so that no two citizens are an hour apart; with the telephone, +that makes everybody in the city live next door, and with the best +folks in the world, how can we help prospering until the continent +is covered with happy homes? + +_Question_. What do you think of civil service reform? + +_Answer_. I am in favor of it. I want such civil service reform +that all the offices will be filled with good and competent +Republicans. The majority should rule, and the men who are in +favor of the views of the majority should hold the offices. I am +utterly opposed to the idea that a party should show its liberality +at the expense of its principles. Men holding office can afford +to take their chances with the rest of us. If they are Democrats, +they should not expect to succeed when their party is defeated. +I believe that there are enough good and honest Republicans in this +country to fill all the offices, and I am opposed to taking any +Democrats until the Republican supply is exhausted. + +Men should not join the Republican party to get office. Such men +are contemptible to the last degree. Neither should a Republican +administration compel a man to leave the party to get a Federal +appointment. After a great battle has been fought I do not believe +that the victorious general should reward the officers of the +conquered army. My doctrine is, rewards for friends. + +--_The Commercial_, Cincinnati, Ohio, December 6, 1880. + + +MR. BEECHER, MOSES AND THE NEGRO. + +_Question_. Mr. Beecher is here. Have you seen him? + +_Answer_. No, I did not meet Mr. Beecher. Neither did I hear him +lecture. The fact is, that long ago I made up my mind that under +no circumstances would I attend any lecture or other entertainment +given at Lincoln Hall. First, because the hall has been denied +me, and secondly, because I regard it as extremely unsafe. The +hall is up several stories from the ground, and in case of the +slightest panic, in my judgment, many lives would be lost. Had it +not been for this, and for the fact that the persons owning it +imagined that because they had control, the brick and mortar had +some kind of holy and sacred quality, and that this holiness is of +such a wonderful character that it would not be proper for a man +in that hall to tell his honest thoughts, I would have heard him. + +_Question_. Then I assume that you and Mr. Beecher have made up? + +_Answer_. There is nothing to be made up for so far as I know. +Mr. Beecher has treated me very well, and, I believe, a little too +well for his own peace of mind. I have been informed that some +members of Plymouth Church felt exceedingly hurt that their pastor +should so far forget himself as to extend the right hand of fellowship +to one who differs from him upon what they consider very essential +points in theology. You see I have denied with all my might, a +great many times, the infamous doctrine of eternal punishment. I +have also had the temerity to suggest that I did not believe that +a being of infinite justice and mercy was the author of all that +I find in the Old Testament. As, for instance, I have insisted +that God never commanded anybody to butcher women or to cut the +throats of prattling babes. These orthodox gentlemen have rushed +to the rescue of Jehovah by insisting that he did all these horrible +things. I have also maintained that God never sanctioned or upheld +human slavery; that he never would make one child to own and beat +another. + +I have also expressed some doubts as to whether this same God ever +established the institution of polygamy. I have insisted that the +institution is simply infamous; that it destroys the idea of home; +that it turns to ashes the most sacred words in our language, and +leaves the world a kind of den in which crawl the serpents of +selfishness and lust. I have been informed that after Mr. Beecher +had treated me kindly a few members of his congregation objected, +and really felt ashamed that he had so forgotten himself. After +that, Mr. Beecher saw fit to give his ideas of the position I had +taken. In this he was not exceedingly kind, nor was his justice +very conspicuous. But I cared nothing about that, not the least. +As I have said before, whenever Mr. Beecher says a good thing I +give him credit. Whenever he does an unfair or unjust thing I +charge it to the account of his religion. I have insisted, and I +still insist, that Mr. Beecher is far better than his creed. I do +not believe that he believes in the doctrine of eternal punishment. +Neither do I believe that he believes in the literal truth of the +Scriptures. And, after all, if the Bible is not true, it is hardly +worth while to insist upon its inspiration. An inspired lie is +not better than an uninspired one. If the Bible is true it does +not need to be inspired. If it is not true, inspiration does not +help it. So that after all it is simply a question of fact. Is +it true? I believe Mr. Beecher stated that one of my grievous +faults was that I picked out the bad things in the Bible. How an +infinitely good and wise God came to put bad things in his book +Mr. Beecher does not explain. I have insisted that the Bible is +not inspired, and, in order to prove that, have pointed out such +passages as I deemed unworthy to have been written even by a +civilized man or a savage. I certainly would not endeavor to prove +that the Bible is uninspired by picking out its best passages. I +admit that there are many good things in the Bible. The fact that +there are good things in it does not prove its inspiration, because +there are thousands of other books containing good things, and yet +no one claims they are inspired. Shakespeare's works contain a +thousand times more good things than the Bible, but no one claims +he was an inspired man. It is also true that there are many bad +things in Shakespeare--many passages which I wish he had never +written. But I can excuse Shakespeare, because he did not rise +absolutely above his time. That is to say, he was a man; that is +to say, he was imperfect. If anybody claimed now that Shakespeare +was actually inspired, that claim would be answered by pointing to +certain weak or bad or vulgar passages in his works. But every +Christian will say that it is a certain kind of blasphemy to impute +vulgarity or weakness to God, as they are all obliged to defend +the weak, the bad and the vulgar, so long as they insist upon the +inspiration of the Bible. Now, I pursued the same course with the +Bible that Mr. Beecher has pursued with me. Why did he want to +pick out my bad things? Is it possible that he is a kind of vulture +that sees only the carrion of another? After all, has he not +pursued the same method with me that he blames me for pursuing in +regard to the Bible? Of course he must pursue that method. He +could not object to me and then point out passages that were not +objectionable. If he found fault he had to find faults in order +to sustain his ground. That is exactly what I have done with +Scriptures--nothing more and nothing less. The reason I have thrown +away the Bible is that in many places it is harsh, cruel, unjust, +coarse, vulgar, atrocious, infamous. At the same time, I admit +that it contains many passages of an excellent and splendid character +--many good things, wise sayings, and many excellent and just laws. + +But I would like to ask this: Suppose there were no passages in +the Bible except those upholding slavery, polygamy and wars of +extermination; would anybody then claim that it was the word of +God? I would like to ask if there is a Christian in the world who +would not be overjoyed to find that every one of these passages +was an interpolation? I would also like to ask Mr. Beecher if he +would not be greatly gratified to find that after God had written +the Bible the Devil had got hold of it, and interpolated all these +passages about slavery, polygamy, the slaughter of women and babes +and the doctrine of eternal punishment? Suppose, as a matter of +fact, the Devil did get hold of it; what part of the Bible would +Mr. Beecher pick out as having been written by the Devil? And if +he picks out these passages could not the Devil answer him by +saying, "You, Mr. Beecher, are like a vulture, a kind of buzzard, +flying through the tainted air of inspiration, and pouncing down +upon the carrion. Why do you not fly like a dove, and why do you +not have the innocent ignorance of the dove, so that you could +light upon a carcass and imagine that you were surrounded by the +perfume of violets?" The fact is that good things in a book do +not prove that it is inspired, but the presence of bad things does +prove that it is not. + +_Question_. What was the real difficulty between you and Moses, +Colonel, a man who has been dead for thousands of years? + +_Answer_. We never had any difficulty. I have always taken pains +to say that Moses had nothing to do with the Pentateuch. Those +books, in my judgment, were written several centuries after Moses +had become dust in his unknown sepulchre. No doubt Moses was quite +a man in his day, if he ever existed at all. Some people say that +Moses is exactly the same as "law-giver;" that is to say, as +Legislature, that is to say as Congress. Imagine somebody in the +future as regarding the Congress of the United States as one person! +And then imagine that somebody endeavoring to prove that Congress +was always consistent. But, whether Moses lived or not makes but +little difference to me. I presume he filled the place and did +the work that he was compelled to do, and although according to +the account God had much to say to him with regard to the making +of altars, tongs, snuffers and candlesticks, there is much left +for nature still to tell. Thinking of Moses as a man, admitting +that he was above his fellows, that he was in his day and generation +a leader, and, in a certain narrow sense, a patriot, that he was +the founder of the Jewish people; that he found them barbarians +and endeavored to control them by thunder and lightning, and found +it necessary to pretend that he was in partnership with the power +governing the universe; that he took advantage of their ignorance +and fear, just as politicians do now, and as theologians always +will, still, I see no evidence that the man Moses was any nearer +to God than his descendants, who are still warring against the +Philistines in every civilized part of the globe. Moses was a +believer in slavery, in polygamy, in wars of extermination, in +religious persecution and intolerance and in almost everything that +is now regarded with loathing, contempt and scorn. The Jehovah of +whom he speaks violated, or commands the violation of at least nine +of the Ten Commandments he gave. There is one thing, however, that +can be said of Moses that cannot be said of any person who now +insists that he was inspired, and that is, he was in advance of his +time. + +_Question_. What do you think of the Buckner Bill for the colonization +of the negroes in Mexico? + +_Answer_. Where does Mr. Buckner propose to colonize the white +people, and what right has he to propose the colonization of six +millions of people? Should we not have other bills to colonize +the Germans, the Swedes, the Irish, and then, may be, another bill +to drive the Chinese into the sea? Where do we get the right to +say that the negroes must emigrate? + +All such schemes will, in my judgment, prove utterly futile. +Perhaps the history of the world does not give an instance of the +emigration of six millions of people. Notwithstanding the treatment +that Ireland has received from England, which may be designated as +a crime of three hundred years, the Irish still love Ireland. All +the despotism in the world will never crush out of the Irish heart +the love of home--the adoration of the old sod. The negroes of +the South have certainly suffered enough to drive them into other +countries; but after all, they prefer to stay where they were born. +They prefer to live where their ancestors were slaves, where fathers +and mothers were sold and whipped; and I don't believe it will be +possible to induce a majority of them to leave that land. Of +course, thousands may leave, and in process of time millions may +go, but I don't believe emigration will ever equal their natural +increase. As the whites of the South become civilized the reason +for going will be less and less. + +I see no reason why the white and black men cannot live together +in the same land, under the same flag. The beauty of liberty is +you cannot have it unless you give it away, and the more you give +away the more you have. I know that my liberty is secure only +because others are free. + +I am perfectly willing to live in a country with such men as +Frederick Douglass and Senator Bruce. I have always preferred a +good, clever black man to a mean white man, and I am of the opinion +that I shall continue in that preference. Now, if we could only +have a colonization bill that would get rid of all the rowdies, +all the rascals and hypocrites, I would like to see it carried out, +thought some people might insist that it would amount to a repudiation +of the national debt and that hardly enough would be left to pay +the interest. No, talk as we will, the colored people helped to +save this Nation. They have been at all times and in all places +the friends of our flag; a flag that never really protected them. +And for my part, I am willing that they should stand forever beneath +that flag, the equal in rights of all other people. Politically, +if any black men are to be sent away, I want it understood that +each one is to be accompanied by a Democrat, so that the balance +of power, especially in New York, will not be disturbed. + +_Question_. I notice that leading Republican newspapers are advising +General Garfield to cut loose from the machine in politics; what +do you regard as the machine? + +_Answer_. All defeated candidates regard the persons who defeated +them as constituting a machine, and always imagine that there is +some wicked conspiracy at the bottom of the machine. Some of the +recent reformers regard the people who take part in the early stages +of a political campaign--who attend caucuses and primaries, who +speak of politics to their neighbors, as members and parts of the +machine, and regard only those as good and reliable American citizens +who take no part whatever, simply reserving the right to grumble +after the work has been done by others. Not much can be accomplished +in politics without an organization, and the moment an organization +is formed, and, you might say, just a little before, leading spirits +will be developed. Certain men will take the lead, and the weaker +men will in a short time, unless they get all the loaves and fishes, +denounce the whole thing as a machine, and, to show how thoroughly +and honestly they detest the machine in politics, will endeavor to +organize a little machine themselves. General Garfield has been +in politics for many years. He knows the principal men in both +parties. He knows the men who have not only done something, but +who are capable of doing something, and such men will not, in my +opinion, be neglected. I do not believe that General Garfield will +do any act calculated to divide the Republican party. No thoroughly +great man carries personal prejudice into the administration of +public affairs. Of course, thousands of people will be prophesying +that this man is to be snubbed and another to be paid; but, in my +judgment, after the 4th of March most people will say that General +Garfield has used his power wisely and that he has neither sought +nor shunned men simply because he wished to pay debts--either of +love or hatred. + +--Washington correspondent, _Brooklyn Eagle_, January 31, 1881. + + +HADES, DELAWARE AND FREETHOUGHT. + +_Question_. Now that a lull has come in politics, I thought I +would come and see what is going on in the religious world? + +_Answer_. Well, from what little I learn, there has not been much +going on during the last year. There are five hundred and twenty- +six Congregational Churches in Massachusetts, and two hundred of +these churches have not received a new member for an entire year, +and the others have scarcely held their own. In Illinois there +are four hundred and eighty-three Presbyterian Churches, and they +have now fewer members than they had in 1879, and of the four +hundred and eighty-three, one hundred and eighty-three have not +received a single new member for twelve months. A report has been +made, under the auspices of the Pan-Presbyterian Council, to the +effect that there are in the whole world about three millions of +Presbyterians. This is about one-fifth of one per cent. of the +inhabitants of the world. The probability is that of the three +million nominal Presbyterians, not more than two or three hundred +thousand actually believe the doctrine, and of the two or three +hundred thousand, not more than five or six hundred have any true +conception of what the doctrine is. As the Presbyterian Church +has only been able to induce one-fifth of one per cent. of the +people to even call themselves Presbyterians, about how long will +it take, at this rate, to convert mankind? The fact is, there +seems to be a general lull along the entire line, and just at +present very little is being done by the orthodox people to keep +their fellow-citizens out of hell. + +_Question_. Do you really think that the orthodox people now +believe in the old doctrine of eternal punishment, and that they +really think there is a kind of hell that our ancestors so carefully +described? + +_Answer_. I am afraid that the old idea is dying out, and that +many Christians are slowly giving up the consolations naturally +springing from the old belief. Another terrible blow to the old +infamy is the fact that in the revised New Testament the word Hades +has been substituted. As nobody knows exactly what Hades means, +it will not be quite so easy to frighten people at revivals by +threatening them with something that they don't clearly understand. +After this, when the impassioned orator cries out that all the +unconverted will be sent to Hades, the poor sinners, instead of +getting frightened, will begin to ask each other what and where +that is. It will take many years of preaching to clothe that word +in all the terrors and horrors, pains, and penalties and pangs of +hell. Hades is a compromise. It is a concession to the philosophy +of our day. It is a graceful acknowledgment to the growing spirit +of investigation, that hell, after all, is a barbaric mistake. +Hades is the death of revivals. It cannot be used in song. It +won't rhyme with anything with the same force that hell does. It +is altogether more shadowy than hot. It is not associated with +brimstone and flame. It sounds somewhat indistinct, somewhat +lonesome, a little desolate, but not altogether uncomfortable. +For revival purposes, Hades is simply useless, and few conversions +will be made in the old way under the revised Testament. + +_Question_. Do you really think that the church is losing ground? + +_Answer_. I am not, as you probably know, connected with any +orthodox organization, and consequently have to rely upon them for +my information. If they can be believed, the church is certainly +in an extremely bad condition. I find that the Rev. Dr. Cuyler, +only a few days ago, speaking of the religious condition of Brooklyn +--and Brooklyn, you know, has been called the City of Churches-- +states that the great mass of that Christian city was out of Christ, +and that more professing Christians went to the theatre than to +the prayer meeting. This, certainly, from their standpoint, is a +most terrible declaration. Brooklyn, you know, is one of the great +religious centres of the world--a city in which nearly all the +people are engaged either in delivering or in hearing sermons; a +city filled with the editors of religious periodicals; a city of +prayer and praise; and yet, while prayer meetings are free, the +theatres, with the free list entirely suspended, catch more Christians +than the churches; and this happens while all the pulpits thunder +against the stage, and the stage remains silent as to the pulpit. +At the same meeting in which the Rev. Dr. Cuyler made his astounding +statements the Rev. Mr. Pentecost was the bearer of the happy news +that four out of five persons living in the city of Brooklyn were +going down to hell with no God and with no hope. If he had read +the revised Testament he would have said "Hades," and the effect +of the statement would have been entirely lost. If four-fifths of +the people of that great city are destined to eternal pain, certainly +we cannot depend upon churches for the salvation of the world. At +the meeting of the Brooklyn pastors they were in doubt as to whether +they should depend upon further meetings, or upon a day of fasting +and prayer for the purpose of converting the city. + +In my judgment, it would be much better to devise ways and means +to keep a good many people from fasting in Brooklyn. If they had +more meat, they could get along with less meeting. If fasting +would save a city, there are always plenty of hungry folks even in +that Christian town. The real trouble with the church of to-day +is, that it is behind the intelligence of the people. Its doctrines +no longer satisfy the brains of the nineteenth century; and if the +church proposes to hold its power, it must lose its superstitions. +The day of revivals is gone. Only the ignorant and unthinking can +hereafter be impressed by hearing the orthodox creed. Fear has in +it no reformatory power, and the more intelligent the world grows +the more despicable and contemptible the doctrine of eternal misery +will become. The tendency of the age is toward intellectual liberty, +toward personal investigation. Authority is no longer taken for +truth. People are beginning to find that all the great and good +are not dead--that some good people are alive, and that the +demonstrations of to-day are fully equal to the mistaken theories +of the past. + +_Question_. How are you getting along with Delaware? + +_Answer_. First rate. You know I have been wondering where Comegys +came from, and at last I have made the discovery. I was told the +other day by a gentleman from Delaware that many years ago Colonel +Hazelitt died; that Colonel Hazelitt was an old Revolutionary +officer, and that when they were digging his grave they dug up +Comegys. Back of that no one knows anything of his history. The +only thing they know about him certainly, is, that he has never +changed one of his views since he was found, and that he never +will. I am inclined to think, however, that he lives in a community +congenial to him. For instance, I saw in a paper the other day +that within a radius of thirty miles around Georgetown, Delaware, +there are about two hundred orphan and friendless children. These +children, it seems, were indentured to Delaware farmers by the +managers of orphan asylums and other public institutions in and +about Philadelphia. It is stated in the paper, that: + +"Many of these farmers are rough task-masters, and if a boy fails +to perform the work of an adult, he is almost certain to be cruelly +treated, half starved, and in the coldest weather wretchedly clad. +If he does the work, his life is not likely to be much happier, +for as a rule he will receive more kicks than candy. The result +in either case is almost certain to be wrecked constitutions, +dwarfed bodies, rounded shoulders, and limbs crippled or rendered +useless by frost or rheumatism. The principal diet of these boys +is corn pone. A few days ago, Constable W. H. Johnston went to +the house of Reuben Taylor, and on entering the sitting room his +attention was attracted by the moans of its only occupant, a little +colored boy, who was lying on the hearth in front of the fireplace. +The boy's head was covered with ashes from the fire, and he did +not pay the slightest attention to the visitor, until Johnston +asked what made him cry. Then the little fellow sat up and drawing +on old rag off his foot said, 'Look there.' The sight that met +Johnston's eye was horrible beyond description. The poor boy's +feet were so horribly frozen that the flesh had dropped off the +toes until the bones protruded. The flesh on the sides, bottoms, +and tops of his feet was swollen until the skin cracked in many +places, and the inflamed flesh was sloughing off in great flakes. +The frost-bitten flesh extended to his knees, the joints of which +were terribly inflamed. The right one had already begun suppurating. +This poor little black boy, covered with nothing but a cotton shirt, +drilling pants, a pair of nearly worn out brogans and a battered +old hat, on the morning of December 30th, the coldest day of the +season, when the mercury was seventeen degrees below zero, in the +face of a driving snow storm, was sent half a mile from home to +protect his master's unshucked corn from the depredations of +marauding cows and crows. He remained standing around in the snow +until four o'clock, then he drove the cows home, received a piece +of cold corn pone, and was sent out in the snow again to chop stove +wood till dark. Having no bed, he slept that night in front of +the fireplace, with his frozen feet buried in the ashes. Dr. C. +H. Richards found it necessary to cut off the boy's feet as far +back as the ankle and the instep." + +This was but one case in several. Personally, I have no doubt that +Mr. Reuben Taylor entirely agrees with Chief Justice Comegys on +the great question of blasphemy, and probably nothing would so +gratify Mr. Reuben Taylor as to see some man in a Delaware jail +for the crime of having expressed an honest thought. No wonder +that in the State of Delaware the Christ of intellectual liberty +has been crucified between the pillory and the whipping-post. Of +course I know that there are thousands of most excellent people in +that State--people who believe in intellectual liberty, and who +only need a little help--and I am doing what I can in that direction +--to repeal the laws that now disgrace the statute book of that +little commonwealth. I have seen many people from that State lately +who really wish that Colonel Hazelitt had never died. + +_Question_. What has the press generally said with regard to the +action of Judge Comegys? Do they, so far as you know, justify his +charge? + +_Answer_. A great many papers having articles upon the subject +have been sent to me. A few of the religious papers seem to think +that the Judge did the best he knew, and there is one secular paper +called the _Evening News_, published at Chester, Pa., that thinks +"that the rebuke from so high a source of authority will have a +most excellent effect, and will check religious blasphemers from +parading their immoral creeds before the people." The editor of +this paper should at once emigrate to the State of Delaware, where +he properly belongs. He is either a native of Delaware, or most +of his subscribers are citizens of that country; or, it may be that +he is a lineal descendant of some Hessian, who deserted during the +Revolutionary war. Most of the newspapers in the United States +are advocates of mental freedom. Probably nothing on earth has +been so potent for good as an untrammeled, fearless press. Among +the papers of importance there is not a solitary exception. No +leading journal in the United States can be found upon the side of +intellectual slavery. Of course, a few rural sheets edited by +gentlemen, as Mr. Greeley would say, "whom God in his inscrutable +wisdom had allowed to exist," may be found upon the other side, +and may be small enough, weak enough and mean enough to pander to +the lowest and basest prejudices of their most ignorant subscribers. +These editors disgrace their profession and exert about the same +influence upon the heads as upon the pockets of their subscribers +--that is to say, they get little and give less. + +_Question_. Do you not think after all, the people who are in +favor of having you arrested for blasphemy, are acting in accordance +with the real spirit of the Old and New Testaments? + +_Answer_. Of course, they act in exact accordance with many of +the commands in the Old Testament, and in accordance with several +passages in the New. At the same time, it may be said that they +violate passages in both. If the Old Testament is true, and if it +is the inspired word of God, of course, an Infidel ought not be +allowed to live; and if the New Testament is true, an unbeliever +should not be permitted to speak. There are many passages, though, +in the New Testament, that should protect even an Infidel. Among +them is this: "Do unto others as ye would that others should do +unto you." But that is a passage that has probably had as little +effect upon the church as any other in the Bible. So far as I am +concerned, I am willing to adopt that passage, and I am willing to +extend to every other human being every right that I claim for +myself. If the churches would act upon this principle, if they +would say--every soul, every mind, may think and investigate for +itself; and around all, and over all, shall be thrown the sacred +shield of liberty, I should be on their side. + +_Question_. How do you stand with the clergymen, and what is their +opinion of you and of your views? + +_Answer_. Most of them envy me; envy my independence; envy my +success; think that I ought to starve; that the people should not +hear me; say that I do what I do for money, for popularity; that I +am actuated by hatred of all that is good and tender and holy in +human nature; think that I wish to tear down the churches, destroy +all morality and goodness, and usher in the reign of crime and +chaos. They know that shepherds are unnecessary in the absence of +wolves, and it is to their interest to convince their sheep that +they, the sheep, need protection. This they are willing to give +them for half the wool. No doubt, most of these minsters are +honest, and are doing what they consider their duty. Be this as +it may, they feel the power slipping from their hands. They know +that the idea is slowly growing that they are not absolutely +necessary for the protection of society. They know that the +intellectual world cares little for what they say, and that the +great tide of human progress flows on careless of their help or +hindrance. So long as they insist upon the inspiration of the +Bible, they are compelled to take the ground that slavery was once +a divine institution; they are forced to defend cruelties that +would shock the heart of a savage, and besides, they are bound to +teach the eternal horror of everlasting punishment. + +They poison the minds of children; they deform the brain and pollute +the imagination by teaching the frightful and infamous dogma of +endless misery. Even the laws of Delaware shock the enlightened +public of to-day. In that State they simply fine and imprison a +man for expressing his honest thoughts; and yet, if the churches +are right, God will damn a man forever for the same offence. The +brain and heart of our time cannot be satisfied with the ancient +creeds. The Bible must be revised again. Most of the creeds must +be blotted out. Humanity must take the place of theology. +Intellectual liberty must stand in every pulpit. There must be +freedom in all the pews, and every human soul must have the right +to express its honest thought. + +--Washington correspondent, _Brooklyn Eagle_, March 19, 1881. + + +A REPLY TO THE REV. MR. LANSING.* + +[* Rev. Isaac J. Lansing of Meriden, Conn., recently denounced Col. +Robert G. Ingersoll from the pulpit of the Meriden Methodist Church, +and had the Opera House closed against him. This led a _Union_ reporter +to show Colonel Ingersoll what Mr. Lansing had said and to interrogate +him with the following result.] + +_Question_. Did you favor the sending of obscene matter through +the mails as alleged by the Rev. Mr. Lansing? + +_Answer_. Of course not, and no honest man ever thought that I +did. This charge is too malicious and silly to be answered. Mr. +Lansing knows better. He has made this charge many times and he +will make it again. + +_Question_. Is it a fact that there are thousands of clergymen in +the country whom you would fear to meet in fair debate? + +_Answer_. No; the fact is I would like to meet them all in one. +The pulpit is not burdened with genius. There a few great men +engaged in preaching, but they are not orthodox. I cannot conceive +that a Freethinker has anything to fear from the pulpit, except +misrepresentation. Of course, there are thousands of ministers +too small to discuss with--ministers who stand for nothing in the +church--and with such clergymen I cannot afford to discuss anything. +If the Presbyterians, or the Congregationalists, or the Methodists +would select some man, and endorse him as their champion, I would +like to meet him in debate. Such a man I will pay to discuss with +me. I will give him most excellent wages, and pay all the expenses +at the discussion besides. There is but one safe course for the +ministers--they must assert. They must declare. They must swear +to it and stick to it, but they must not try to reason. + +_Question_. You have never seen Rev. Mr. Lansing. To the people +of Meriden and thereabouts he is well-known. Judging from what +has been told you of his utterances and actions, what kind of a +man would you take him to be? + +_Answer_. I would take him to be a Christian. He talks like one, +and he acts like one. If Christianity is right, Lansing is right. +If salvation depends upon belief, and if unbelievers are to be +eternally damned, then an Infidel has no right to speak. He should +not be allowed to murder the souls of his fellow-men. Lansing does +the best he knows how. He thinks that God hates an unbeliever, +and he tries to act like God. Lansing knows that he must have the +right to slander a man whom God is to eternally damn. + +_Question_. Mr. Lansing speaks of you as a wolf coming with fangs +sharpened by three hundred dollars a night to tear the lambs of +his flock. What do you say to that? + +_Answer_. All I have to say is, that I often get three times that +amount, and sometimes much more. I guess his lambs can take care +of themselves. I am not very fond of mutton anyway. Such talk +Mr. Lansing ought to be ashamed of. The idea that he is a shepherd +--that he is on guard--is simply preposterous. He has few sheep +in his congregation that know as little on the wolf question as +he does. He ought to know that his sheep support him--his sheep +protect him; and without the sheep poor Lansing would be devoured +by the wolves himself. + +_Question_. Shall you sue the Opera House management for breach +of contract? + +_Answer_. I guess not; but I may pay Lansing something for +advertising my lecture. I suppose Mr. Wilcox (who controls the +Opera House) did what he thought was right. I hear he is a good +man. He probably got a little frightened and began to think about +the day of judgment. He could not help it, and I cannot help +laughing at him. + +_Question_. Those in Meriden who most strongly oppose you are +radical Republicans. Is it not a fact that you possess the confidence +and friendship of some of the most respected leaders of that party? + +_Answer_. I think that all the respectable ones are friends of +mine. I am a Republican because I believe in the liberty of the +body, and I am an Infidel because I believe in the liberty of the +mind. There is no need of freeing cages. Let us free the birds. +If Mr. Lansing knew me, he would be a great friend. He would +probably annoy me by the frequency and length of his visits. + +_Question_. During the recent presidential campaign did any +clergymen denounce you for your teachings, that you are aware of? + +_Answer_. Some did, but they would not if they had been running +for office on the Republican ticket. + +_Question_. What is most needed in our public men? + +_Answer_. Hearts and brains. + +_Question_. Would people be any more moral solely because of a +disbelief in orthodox teaching and in the Bible as an inspired +book, in your opinion? + +_Answer_. Yes; if a man really believes that God once upheld +slavery; that he commanded soldiers to kill women and babes; that +he believed in polygamy; that he persecuted for opinion's sake; +that he will punish forever, and that he hates an unbeliever, the +effect in my judgment will be bad. It always has been bad. This +belief built the dungeons of the Inquisition. This belief made +the Puritan murder the Quaker, and this belief has raised the devil +with Mr. Lansing. + +_Question_. Do you believe there will ever be a millennium, and +if so how will it come about? + +_Answer_. It will probably start in Meriden, as I have been informed +that Lansing is going to leave. + +_Question_. Is there anything else bearing upon the question at +issue or that would make good reading, that I have forgotten, that +you would like to say? + +_Answer_. Yes. Good-bye. + +--_The Sunday Union_, New Haven, Conn., April 10, 1881. + + +BEACONSFIELD, LENT AND REVIVALS. + +_Question_. What have you to say about the attack of Dr. Buckley +on you, and your lecture? + +_Answer_. I never heard of Dr. Buckley until after I had lectured +in Brooklyn. He seems to think that it was extremely ill bred in +me to deliver a lecture on the "Liberty of Man, Woman and Child," +during Lent. Lent is just as good as any other part of the year, +and no part can be too good to do good. It was not a part of my +object to hurt the feelings of the Episcopalians and Catholics. +If they think that there is some subtle relation between hunger +and heaven, or that faith depends upon, or is strengthened by +famine, or that veal, during Lent, is the enemy of virtue, or that +beef breeds blasphemy, while fish feeds faith--of course, all this +is nothing to me. They have a right to say that vice depends upon +victuals, sanctity on soup, religion on rice and chastity on cheese, +but they have no right to say that a lecture on liberty is an insult +to them because they are hungry. I suppose that Lent was instituted +in memory of the Savior's fast. At one time it was supposed that +only a divine being could live forty days without food. This +supposition has been overthrown. + +It has been demonstrated by Dr. Tanner to be utterly without +foundation. What possible good did it do the world for Christ to +go without food for forty days? Why should we follow such an +example? As a rule, hungry people are cross, contrary, obstinate, +peevish and unpleasant. A good dinner puts a man at peace with +all the world--makes him generous, good natured and happy. He +feels like kissing his wife and children. The future looks bright. +He wants to help the needy. The good in him predominates, and he +wonders that any man was ever stingy or cruel. Your good cook is +a civilizer, and without good food, well prepared, intellectual +progress is simply impossible. Most of the orthodox creeds were +born of bad cooking. Bad food produced dyspepsia, and dyspepsia +produced Calvinism, and Calvinism is the cancer of Christianity. +Oatmeal is responsible for the worst features of Scotch Presbyterianism. +Half cooked beans account for the religion of the Puritans. Fried +bacon and saleratus biscuit underlie the doctrine of State Rights. +Lent is a mistake, fasting is a blunder, and bad cooking is a crime. + +_Question_. It is stated that you went to Brooklyn while Beecher +and Talmage were holding revivals, and that you did so for the +purpose of breaking them up. How is this? + +_Answer_. I had not the slightest idea of interfering with the +revivals. They amounted to nothing. They were not alive enough +to be killed. Surely one lecture could not destroy two revivals. +Still, I think that if all the persons engaged in the revivals had +spent the same length of time in cleaning the streets, the good +result would have been more apparent. The truth is, that the old +way of converting people will have to be abandoned. The Americans +are getting hard to scare, and a revival without the "scare" is +scarcely worth holding. Such maniacs as Hammond and the "Boy +Preacher" fill asylums and terrify children. After saying what he +has about hell, Mr. Beecher ought to know that he is not the man +to conduct a revival. A revival sermon with hell left out--with +the brimstone gone--with the worm that never dies, dead, and the +Devil absent--is the broadest farce. Mr. Talmage believes in the +ancient way. With him hell is a burning reality. He can hear the +shrieks and groans. He is of that order of mind that rejoices in +these things. If he could only convince others, he would be a +great revivalist. He cannot terrify, he astonishes. He is the +clown of the horrible--one of Jehovah's jesters. I am not responsible +for the revival failure in Brooklyn. I wish I were. I would have +the happiness of knowing that I had been instrumental in preserving +the sanity of my fellow-men. + +_Question_. How do you account for these attacks? + +_Answer_. It was not so much what I said that excited the wrath +of the reverend gentlemen as the fact that I had a great house. +They contrasted their failure with my success. The fact is, the +people are getting tired of the old ideas. They are beginning to +think for themselves. Eternal punishment seems to them like eternal +revenge. They see that Christ could not atone for the sins of +others; that belief ought not to be rewarded and honest doubt +punished forever; that good deeds are better than bad creeds, and +that liberty is the rightful heritage of every soul. + +_Question_. Were you an admirer of Lord Beaconsfield? + +_Answer_. In some respects. He was on our side during the war, +and gave it as his opinion that the Union would be preserved. Mr. +Gladstone congratulated Jefferson Davis on having founded a new +nation. I shall never forget Beaconsfield for his kindness, nor +Gladstone for his malice. Beaconsfield was an intellectual gymnast, +a political athlete, one of the most adroit men in the world. He +had the persistence of his race. In spite of the prejudices of +eighteen hundred years, he rose to the highest position that can +be occupied by a citizen. During his administration England again +became a Continental power and played her game of European chess. +I have never regarded Beaconsfield as a man controlled by principle, +or by his heart. He was strictly a politician. He always acted +as though he thought the clubs were looking at him. He knew all +the arts belonging to his trade. He would have succeeded anywhere, +if by "succeeding" is meant the attainment of position and power. +But after all, such men are splendid failures. They give themselves +and others a great deal of trouble--they wear the tinsel crown of +temporary success and then fade from public view. They astonish +the pit, they gain the applause of the galleries, but when the +curtain falls there is nothing left to benefit mankind. Beaconsfield +held convictions somewhat in contempt. He had the imagination of +the East united with the ambition of an Englishman. With him, to +succeed was to have done right. + +_Question_. What do you think of him as an author? + +_Answer_. Most of his characters are like himself--puppets moved +by the string of self-interest. The men are adroit, the women +mostly heartless. They catch each other with false bait. They +have great worldly wisdom. Their virtue and vice are mechanical. +They have hearts like clocks--filled with wheels and springs. The +author winds them up. In his novels Disraeli allows us to enter +the greenroom of his heart. We see the ropes, the pulleys and the +old masks. In all things, in politics and in literature, he was +cold, cunning, accurate, able and successful. His books will, in +a little while, follow their author to their grave. After all, +the good will live longest. + +--Washington correspondent, _Brooklyn Eagle_, April 24, 1881. + + +ANSWERING THE NEW YORK MINISTERS.* + +[* Ever since Colonel Ingersoll began the delivery of his lecture +called _The Great Infidels_, the ministers of the country have +made him the subject of special attack. One week ago last Sunday +the majority of the leading ministers in New York made replies to +Ingersoll's latest lecture. What he has to say to these replies +will be found in a report of an interview with Colonel Ingersoll. + +No man is harder to pin down for a long talk than the Colonel. He is +so beset with visitors and eager office seekers anxious for help, +that he can hardly find five minutes unoccupied during an entire day. +Through the shelter of a private room and the guardianship of a stout +colored servant, the Colonel was able to escape the crowd of seekers +after his personal charity long enough to give some time to answer +some of the ministerial arguments advanced against him in New York.] + +_Question_. Have you seen the attacks made upon you by certain +ministers of New York, published in the _Herald_ last Sunday? + +_Answer_. Yes, I read, or heard read, what was in Monday's _Herald_. +I do not know that you could hardly call them attacks. They are +substantially a repetition of what the pulpit has been saying for +a great many hundred years, and what the pulpit will say just so +long as men are paid for suppressing truth and for defending +superstition. One of these gentlemen tells the lambs of his flock +that three thousand men and a few women--probably with quite an +emphasis on the word "Few"--gave one dollar each to hear their +Maker cursed and their Savior ridiculed. Probably nothing is so +hard for the average preacher to bear as the fact that people are +not only willing to hear the other side, but absolutely anxious to +pay for it. The dollar that these people paid hurt their feelings +vastly more than what was said after they were in. Of course, it +is a frightful commentary on the average intellect of the pulpit +that a minister cannot get so large an audience when he preaches +for nothing, as an Infidel can draw at a dollar a head. If I +depended upon a contribution box, or upon passing a saucer that +would come back to the stage enriched with a few five cent pieces, +eight or ten dimes, and a lonesome quarter, these gentlemen would, +in all probability, imagine Infidelity was not to be feared. + +The churches were all open on that Sunday, and all could go who +desired. Yet they were not full, and the pews were nearly as empty +of people as the pulpit of ideas. The truth is, the story is +growing old, the ideas somewhat moss-covered, and everything has +a wrinkled and withered appearance. This gentleman says that these +people went to hear their Maker cursed and their Savior ridiculed. +Is it possible that in a city where so many steeples pierce the +air, and hundreds of sermons are preached every Sunday, there are +three thousand men, and a few women, so anxious to hear "their +Maker cursed and their Savior ridiculed" that they are willing to +pay a dollar each? The gentleman knew that nobody cursed anybody's +Maker. He knew that the statement was utterly false and without +the slightest foundation. He also knew that nobody had ridiculed +the Savior of anybody, but, on the contrary, that I had paid a +greater tribute to the character of Jesus Christ than any minister +in New York has the capacity to do. Certainly it is not cursing +the Maker of anybody to say that the God described in the Old +Testament is not the real God. Certainly it is not cursing God to +declare that the real God never sanctioned slavery or polygamy, or +commanded wars of extermination, or told a husband to separate from +his wife if she differed with him in religion. The people who say +these things of God--if there is any God at all--do what little +there is in their power, unwittingly of course, to destroy his +reputation. But I have done something to rescue the reputation of +the Deity from the slanders of the pulpit. If there is any God, +I expect to find myself credited on the heavenly books for my +defence of him. I did say that our civilization is due not to +piety, but to Infidelity. I did say that every great reformer had +been denounced as an Infidel in his day and generation. I did say +that Christ was an Infidel, and that he was treated in his day very +much as the orthodox preachers treat an honest man now. I did say +that he was tried for blasphemy and crucified by bigots. I did +say that he hated and despised the church of his time, and that he +denounced the most pious people of Jerusalem as thieves and vipers. +And I suggested that should he come again he might have occasion +to repeat the remarks that he then made. At the same time I admitted +that there are thousands and thousands of Christians who are +exceedingly good people. I never did pretend that the fact that +a man was a Christian even tended to show that he was a bad man. +Neither have I ever insisted that the fact that a man is an Infidel +even tends to show what, in other respects, his character is. But +I always have said, and I always expect to say, that a Christian +who does not believe in absolute intellectual liberty is a curse +to mankind, and that an Infidel who does believe in absolute +intellectual liberty is a blessing to this world. We cannot expect +all Infidels to be good, nor all Christians to be bad, and we might +make some mistakes even if we selected these people ourselves. It +is admitted by the Christians that Christ made a great mistake when +he selected Judas. This was a mistake of over eight per cent. + +Chaplain Newman takes pains to compare some great Christians with +some great Infidels. He compares Washington with Julian, and +insists, I suppose, that Washington was a great Christian. Certainly +he is not very familiar with the history of Washington, or he never +would claim that he was particularly distinguished in his day for +what is generally known as vital piety. That he went through the +ordinary forms of Christianity nobody disputes. That he listened +to sermons without paying any particular attention to them, no one +will deny. Julian, of course, was somewhat prejudiced against +Christianity, but that he was one of the greatest men of antiquity +no one acquainted with the history of Rome can honestly dispute. +When he was made emperor he found at the palace hundreds of gentlemen +who acted as barbers, hair-combers, and brushers for the emperor. +He dismissed them all, remarking that he was able to wash himself. +These dismissed office-holders started the story that he was dirty +in his habits, and a minister of the nineteenth century was found +silly enough to believe the story. Another thing that probably +got him into disrepute in that day, he had no private chaplains. +As a matter of fact, Julian was forced to pretend that he was a +Christian in order to save his life. The Christians of that day +were of such a loving nature that any man who differed with them +was forced to either fall a victim to their ferocity or seek safety +in subterfuge. The real crime that Julian committed, and the only +one that has burned itself into the very heart and conscience of +the Christian world, is, that he transferred the revenues of the +Christian churches to heathen priests. Whoever stands between a +priest and his salary will find that he has committed the unpardonable +sin commonly known as the sin against the Holy Ghost. + +This gentleman also compares Luther with Voltaire. If he will read +the life of Luther by Lord Brougham, he will find that in his +ordinary conversation he was exceedingly low and vulgar, and that +no respectable English publisher could be found who would soil +paper with the translation. If he will take the pains to read an +essay by Macaulay, he will find that twenty years after the death +of Luther there were more Catholics than when he was born. And +that twenty years after the death of Voltaire there were millions +less than when he was born. If he will take just a few moments to +think, he will find that the last victory of Protestantism was in +Holland; that there has never been one since, and will never be +another. If he would really like to think, and enjoy for a few +moments the luxury of having an idea, let him ponder for a little +while over the instructive fact that languages having their root +in the Latin have generally been spoken in Catholic countries, and +that those languages having their root in the ancient German are +now mostly spoken by people of Protestant proclivities. It may +occur to him, after thinking of this a while, that there is something +deeper in the question than he has as yet perceived. Luther's last +victory, as I said before, was in Holland; but the victory of +Voltaire goes on from day to day. Protestantism is not holding +its own with Catholicism, even in the United States. I saw the +other day the statistics, I believe, of the city of Chicago, showing +that, while the city had increased two or three hundred per cent., +Protestantism had lagged behind at the rate of twelve per cent. +I am willing for one, to have the whole question depend upon a +comparison of the worth and work of Voltaire and Luther. It may +be, too, that the gentleman forgot to tell us that Luther himself +gave consent to a person high in office to have two wives, but +prudently suggested to him that he had better keep it as still as +possible. Luther was, also, a believer in a personal Devil. He +thought that deformed children had been begotten by an evil spirit. +On one occasion he told a mother that, in his judgment, she had +better drown her child; that he had no doubt that the Devil was +its father. This same Luther made this observation: "Universal +toleration is universal error, and universal error is universal +hell." From this you will see that he was an exceedingly good man, +but mistaken upon many questions. So, too, he laughed at the +Copernican system, and wanted to know if those fool astronomers +could undo the work of God. He probably knew as little about +science as the reverend gentleman does about history. + +_Question_. Does he compare any other Infidels with Christians? + +_Answer_. Oh, yes; he compares Lord Bacon with Diderot. I have +never claimed that Diderot was a saint. I have simply insisted +that he was a great man; that he was grand enough to say that +"incredulity is the beginning of philosophy;" that he had sense +enough to know that the God described by the Catholics and Protestants +of his day was simply an impossible monster; and that he also had +the brain to see that the little selfish heaven occupied by a few +monks and nuns and idiots they had fleeced, was hardly worth going +to; in other words, that he was a man of common sense, greatly in +advance of his time, and that he did what he could to increase the +sum of human enjoyment to the end that there might be more happiness +in this world. + +The gentleman compares him with Lord Bacon, and yet, if he will +read the trials of that day--I think in the year 1620--he will find +that the Christian Lord Bacon, the pious Lord Bacon, was charged +with receiving pay for his opinions, and, in some instances, pay +from both sides; that the Christian Lord Bacon, at first upon his +honor as a Christian lord, denied the whole business; that afterward +the Christian Lord Bacon, upon his honor as a Christian lord, +admitted the truth of the whole business, and that, therefore, the +Christian Lord Bacon was convicted and sentenced to pay a fine of +forty thousand pounds, and rendered infamous and incapable of +holding any office. Now, understand me, I do not think Bacon took +bribes because he was a Christian, because there have been many +Christian judges perfectly honest; but, if the statement of the +reverend gentlemen of New York is true, his being a Christian did +not prevent his taking bribes. And right here allow me to thank +the gentleman with all my heart for having spoken of Lord Bacon in +this connection. I have always admired the genius of Bacon, and +have always thought of his fall with an aching heart, and would +not now have spoken of his crime had not his character been flung +in my face by a gentleman who asks his God to kill me for having +expressed my honest thought. + +The same gentleman compares Newton with Spinoza. In the first +place, there is no ground of parallel. Newton was a very great +man and a very justly celebrated mathematician. As a matter of +fact, he is not celebrated for having discovered the law of +gravitation. That was known for thousands of years before he was +born; and if the reverend gentleman would read a little more he +would find that Newton's discovery was not that there is such a +law as gravitation, but that bodies attract each other "with a +force proportional directly to the quantity of matter they contain, +and inversely to the squares of their distances." I do not think +he made the discoveries on account of his Christianity. Laplace +was certainly in many respects as great a mathematician and +astronomer, but he was not a Christian. + +Descartes was certainly not much inferior to Newton as a mathematician, +and thousands insist that he was his superior; yet he was not a +Christian. Euclid, if I remember right, was not a Christian, and +yet he had quite a turn for mathematics. As a matter of fact, +Christianity got its idea of algebra from the Mohammedans, and, +without algebra, astronomical knowledge of to-day would have been +impossible. Christianity did not even invent figures. We got +those from the Arabs. The very word "algebra" is Arabic. The +decimal system, I believe, however, was due to a German, but whether +he was a Christian or not, I do not know. + +We find that the Chinese calculated eclipses long before Christ +was born; and, exactness being the rule at that time, there is an +account of two astronomers having been beheaded for failing to tell +the coming of an eclipse to the minute; yet they were not Christians. +There is another fact connected with Newton, and that is that he +wrote a commentary on the Book of Revelation. The probability is +that a sillier commentary was never written. It was so perfectly +absurd and laughable that some one--I believe it was Voltaire--said +that while Newton had excited the envy of the intellectual world +by his mathematical accomplishments, it had gotten even with him +the moment his commentaries were published. Spinoza was not a +mathematician, particularly. He was a metaphysician, an honest +thinker, whose influence is felt, and will be felt so long as these +great questions have the slightest interest for the human brain. + +He also compares Chalmers with Hume. Chalmers gained his notoriety +from preaching what are known as the astronomical sermons, and, I +suppose, was quite a preacher in his day. + +But Hume was a thinker, and his works will live for ages after Mr. +Chalmers' sermons will have been forgotten. Mr. Chalmers has never +been prominent enough to have been well known by many people. He +may have been an exceedingly good man, and derived, during his +life, great consolation from a belief in the damnation of infants. + +Mr. Newman also compares Wesley with Thomas Paine. When Thomas +Paine was in favor of human liberty, Wesley was against it. Thomas +Paine wrote a pamphlet called "Common Sense," urging the colonies +to separate themselves from Great Britain. Wesley wrote a treatise +on the other side. He was the enemy of human liberty; and if his +advice could have been followed we would have been the colonies of +Great Britain still. We never would have had a President in need +of a private chaplain. Mr. Wesley had not a scientific mind. He +preached a sermon once on the cause and cure of earthquakes, taking +the ground that earthquakes were caused by sins, and that the only +way to stop them was to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. He also +laid down some excellent rules for rearing children, that is, from +a Methodist standpoint. His rules amounted to about this: + + _First_. Never give them what they want. + _Second_. Never give them what you intend to give them, at the time + they want it. + _Third_. Break their wills at the earliest possible moment. + +Mr. Wesley made every family an inquisition, every father and mother +inquisitors, and all the children helpless victims. One of his +homes would give an exceedingly vivid idea of hell. At the same +time, Mr. Wesley was a believer in witches and wizards, and knew +all about the Devil. At his request God performed many miracles. +On several occasions he cured his horse of lameness. On others, +dissipated Mr. Wesley's headaches. Now and then he put off rain +on account of a camp meeting, and at other times stopped the wind +blowing at the special request of Mr. Wesley. I have no doubt that +Mr. Wesley was honest in all this,--just as honest as he was +mistaken. And I also admit that he was the founder of a church +that does extremely well in new countries, and that thousands of +Methodists have been exceedingly good men. But I deny that he ever +did anything for human liberty. While Mr. Wesley was fighting the +Devil and giving his experience with witches and wizards, Thomas +Paine helped to found a free nation, helped to enrich the air with +another flag. Wesley was right on one thing, though. He was +opposed to slavery, and, I believe, called it the sum of all +villainies. I have always been obliged to him for that. I do not +think he said it because he was a Methodist; but Methodism, as he +understood it, did not prevent his saying it, and Methodism as +others understood it, did not prevent men from being slaveholders, +did not prevent them from selling babes from mothers, and in the +name of God beating the naked back of toil. I think, on the whole, +Paine did more for the world than Mr. Wesley. The difference +between an average Methodist and an average Episcopalian is not +worth quarreling about. But the difference between a man who +believes in despotism and one who believes in liberty is almost +infinite. Wesley changed Episcopalians into Methodists; Paine +turned lickspittles into men. Let it be understood, once for all, +that I have never claimed that Paine was perfect. I was very glad +that the reverend gentleman admitted that he was a patriot and the +foe of tyrants; that he sympathized with the oppressed, and befriended +the helpless; that he favored religious toleration, and that he +weakened the power of the Catholic Church. I am glad that he made +these admissions. Whenever it can be truthfully said of a man that +he loved his country, hated tyranny, sympathized with the oppressed, +and befriended the helpless, nothing more is necessary. If God +can afford to damn such a man, such a man can afford to be damned. +While Paine was the foe of tyrants, Christians were the tyrants. +When he sympathized with the oppressed, the oppressed were the +victims of Christians. When he befriended the helpless, the helpless +were the victims of Christians. Paine never founded an inquisition; +never tortured a human being; never hoped that anybody's tongue +would be paralyzed, and was always opposed to private chaplains. + +It might be well for the reverend gentleman to continue his +comparisons, and find eminent Christians to put, for instance, +along with Humboldt, the Shakespeare of science; somebody by the +side of Darwin, as a naturalist; some gentleman in England to stand +with Tyndall, or Huxley; some Christian German to stand with Haeckel +and Helmholtz. May be he knows some Christian statesman that he +would compare with Gambetta. I would advise him to continue his +parallels. + +_Question_. What have you to say of the Rev. Dr. Fulton? + +_Answer_. The Rev. Dr. Fulton is a great friend of mine. I am +extremely sorry to find that he still believes in a personal Devil, +and I greatly regret that he imagines that this Devil has so much +power that he can take possession of a human being and deprive God +of their services. It is in sorrow and not in anger, that I find +that he still believes in this ancient superstition. I also regret +that he imagines that I am leading young men to eternal ruin. It +occurs to me that if there is an infinite God, he ought not to +allow anybody to lead young men to eternal ruin. If anything I +have said, or am going to say, has a tendency to lead young men to +eternal ruin, I hope that if there is a God with the power to +prevent me, that he will use it. Dr. Fulton admits that in politics +I am on the right side. I presume he makes this concession because +he is a Republican. I am in favor of universal education, of +absolute intellectual liberty. I am in favor, also, of equal rights +to all. As I have said before we have spent millions and millions +of dollars and rivers of blood to free the bodies of men; in other +words, we have been freeing the cages. My proposition now is to +give a little liberty to the birds. I am not willing to stop where +a man can simply reap the fruit of his hand. I wish him, also, to +enjoy the liberty of his brain. I am not against any truth in the +New Testament. I did say that I objected to religion because it +made enemies and not friends. The Rev. Dr. says that is one reason +why he likes religion. Dr. Fulton tells me that the Bible is the +gift of God to man. He also tells me that the Bible is true, and +that God is its author. If the Bible is true and God is its author, +then God was in favor of slavery four thousand years ago. He was +also in favor of polygamy and religious intolerance. In other +words, four thousand years ago he occupied the exact position the +Devil is supposed to occupy now. If the Bible teaches anything it +teaches man to enslave his brother, that is to say, if his brother +is a heathen. The God of the Bible always hated heathens. Dr. +Fulton also says that the Bible is the basis of all law. Yet, if +the Legislature of New York would re-enact next winter the Mosaic +code, the members might consider themselves lucky if they were not +hung upon their return home. Probably Dr. Fulton thinks that had +it not been for the Ten Commandments, nobody would ever have thought +that stealing was wrong. I have always had an idea that men objected +to stealing because the industrious did not wish to support the +idle; and I have a notion that there has always been a law against +murder, because a large majority of people have always objected to +being murdered. If he will read his Old Testament with care, he +will find that God violated most of his own commandments--all except +that "Thou shalt worship no other God before me," and, may be, the +commandment against work on the Sabbath day. With these two +exceptions I am satisfied that God himself violated all the rest. +He told his chosen people to rob the Gentiles; that violated the +commandment against stealing. He said himself that he had sent +out lying spirits; that certainly was a violation of another +commandment. He ordered soldiers to kill men, women and babes; +that was a violation of another. He also told them to divide the +maidens among the soldiers; that was a substantial violation of +another. One of the commandments was that you should not covet +your neighbor's property. In that commandment you will find that +a man's wife is put on an equality with his ox. Yet his chosen +people were allowed not only to covet the property of the Gentiles, +but to take it. If Dr. Fulton will read a little more, he will +find that all the good laws in the Decalogue had been in force in +Egypt a century before Moses was born. He will find that like laws +and many better ones were in force in India and China, long before +Moses knew what a bulrush was. If he will think a little while, +he will find that one of the Ten Commandments, the one on the +subject of graven images, was bad. The result of that was that +Palestine never produced a painter, or a sculptor, and that no Jew +became famous in art until long after the destruction of Jerusalem. +A commandment that robs a people of painting and statuary is not +a good one. The idea of the Bible being the basis of law is almost +too silly to be seriously refuted. I admit that I did say that +Shakespeare was the greatest man who ever lived; and Dr. Fulton +says in regard to this statement, "What foolishness!" He then +proceeds to insult his audience by telling them that while many of +them have copies of Shakespeare's works in their houses, they have +not read twenty pages of them. This fact may account for their +attending his church and being satisfied with that sermon. I do +not believe to-day that Shakespeare is more influential than the +Bible, but what influence Shakespeare has, is for good. No man +can read it without having his intellectual wealth increased. When +you read it, it is not necessary to throw away your reason. Neither +will you be damned if you do not understand it. It is a book that +appeals to everything in the human brain. In that book can be +found the wisdom of all ages. Long after the Bible has passed out +of existence, the name of Shakespeare will lead the intellectual +roster of the world. Dr. Fulton says there is not one work in the +Bible that teaches that slavery or polygamy is right. He also +states that I know it. If language has meaning--if words have +sense, or the power to convey thought,--what did God mean when he +told the Israelites to buy of the heathen round about, and that +the heathen should be their bondmen and bondmaids forever? + +What did God mean when he said, If a man strike his servant so he +dies, he should not be punished, because his servant was his money? +Passages like these can be quoted beyond the space that any paper +is willing to give. Yet the Rev. Dr. Fulton denies that the Old +Testament upholds slavery. I would like to ask him if the Old +Testament is in favor of religious toleration? If God wrote the +Old Testament and afterward came upon the earth as Jesus Christ, +and taught a new religion, and the Jews crucified him, was this +not in accordance with his own law, and was he not, after all, the +victim of himself? + +_Question_. What about the other ministers? + +_Answer_. Well, I see in the _Herald_ that some ten have said that +they would reply to me. I have selected the two, simply because +they came first. I think they are about as poor as any; and you +know it is natural to attack those who are the easiest answered. +All these ministers are now acting as my agents, and are doing me +all the good they can by saying all the bad things about me they +can think of. They imagine that their congregations have not grown, +and they talk to them as though they were living in the seventeenth +instead of the nineteenth century. The truth is, the pews are +beyond the pulpit, and the modern sheep are now protecting the +shepherds. + +_Question_. Have you noticed a great change in public sentiment +in the last three or four years? + +_Answer_. Yes, I think there are ten times as many Infidels to- +day as there were ten years ago. I am amazed at the great change +that has taken place in public opinion. The churches are not +getting along well. There are hundreds and hundreds who have not +had a new member in a year. The young men are not satisfied with +the old ideas. They find that the church, after all, is opposed +to learning; that it is the enemy of progress; that it says to +every young man, "Go slow. Don't allow your knowledge to puff you +up. Recollect that reason is a dangerous thing. You had better +be a little ignorant here for the sake of being an angel hereafter, +than quite a smart young man and get damned at last." The church +warns them against Humboldt and Darwin, and tells them how much +nobler it is to come from mud than from monkeys; that they were +made from mud. Every college professor is afraid to tell what he +thinks, and every student detects the cowardice. The result is +that the young men have lost confidence in the creeds of the day +and propose to do a little thinking for themselves. They still +have a kind of tender pity for the old folks, and pretend to believe +some things they do not, rather than hurt grandmother's feelings. +In the presence of the preachers they talk about the weather or +other harmless subjects, for fear of bruising the spirit of their +pastor. Every minister likes to consider himself as a brave shepherd +leading the lambs through the green pastures and defending them at +night from Infidel wolves. All this he does for a certain share +of the wool. Others regard the church as a kind of social +organization, as a good way to get into society. They wish to +attend sociables, drink tea, and contribute for the conversion of +the heathen. It is always so pleasant to think that there is +somebody worse than you are, whose reformation you can help pay +for. I find, too, that the young women are getting tired of the +old doctrines, and that everywhere, all over this country, the +power of the pulpit wanes and weakens. I find in my lectures that +the applause is just in proportion to the radicalism of the thought +expressed. Our war was a great educator, when the whole people of +the North rose up grandly in favor of human liberty. For many +years the great question of human rights was discussed from every +stump. Every paper was filled with splendid sentiments. An +application of those doctrines--doctrines born in war--will forever +do away with the bondage of superstition. When man has been free +in body for a little time, he will become free in mind, and the +man who says, "I have a equal right with other men to work and reap +the reward of my labor," will say, "I have, also, an equal right +to think and reap the reward of my thought." + +In old times there was a great difference between a clergyman and +a layman. The clergyman was educated; the peasant was ignorant. +The tables have been turned. The thought of the world is with the +laymen. They are the intellectual pioneers, the mental leaders, +and the ministers are following on behind, predicting failure and +disaster, sighing for the good old times when their word ended +discussion. There is another good thing, and that is the revision +of the Bible. Hundreds of passages have been found to be +interpolations, and future revisers will find hundreds more. The +foundation crumbles. That book, called the basis of all law and +civilization, has to be civilized itself. We have outgrown it. +Our laws are better; our institutions grander; our objects and aims +nobler and higher. + +_Question_. Do many people write to you upon this subject; and +what spirit do they manifest? + +_Answer_. Yes, I get a great many anonymous letters--some letters +in which God is asked to strike me dead, others of an exceedingly +insulting character, others almost idiotic, others exceedingly +malicious, and others insane, others written in an exceedingly good +spirit, winding up with the information that I must certainly be +damned. Others express wonder that God allowed me to live at all, +and that, having made the mistake, he does not instantly correct +it by killing me. Others prophesy that I will yet be a minister +of the gospel; but, as there has never been any softening of the +brain in our family, I imagine that the prophecy will never by +fulfilled. Lately, on opening a letter and seeing that it is upon +this subject, and without a signature, I throw it aside without +reading. I have so often found them to be so grossly ignorant, +insulting and malicious, that as a rule I read them no more. + +_Question_. Of the hundreds of people who call upon you nearly +every day to ask your help, do any of them ever discriminate against +you on account of your Infidelity? + +_Answer_. No one who has asked a favor of me objects to my religion, +or, rather, to my lack of it. A great many people do come to me +for assistance of one kind or another. But I have never yet asked +a man or woman whether they were religious or not, to what church +they belonged, or any questions upon the subject. I think I have +done favors for persons of most denominations. It never occurs to +me whether they are Christians or Infidels. I do not care. Of +course, I do not expect that Christians will treat me the same as +though I belonged to their church. I have never expected it. In +some instances I have been disappointed. I have some excellent +friends who disagree with me entirely upon the subject of religion. +My real opinion is that secretly they like me because I am not a +Christian, and those who do not like me envy the liberty I enjoy. + +--New York correspondent, _Chicago Times_, May 29, 1881. + + +GUITEAU AND HIS CRIME.* + +[* Our "Royal Bob" was found by _The Gazette_, in the gloaming of +a delicious evening, during the past week, within the open portals +of his friendly residence, dedicated by the gracious presence within +to a simple and cordial hospitality, to the charms of friendship and +the freedom of an abounding comradeship. With intellectual and +untrammeled life, a generous, wise and genial host, whoever enters +finds a welcome, seasoned with kindly wit and Attic humor, a poetic +insight and a delicious frankness which renders an evening there a +veritable symposium. The wayfarer who passes is charmed, and he who +comes frequently, goes always away with delighted memories. + +What matters it that we differ? such as he and his make our common +life the sweeter. An hour or two spent in the attractive parlors +of the Ingersoll homestead, amid that rare group, lends a newer +meaning to the idea of home and a more secure beauty to the fact +of family life. During the past exciting three weeks Colonel +Ingersoll has been a busy man. He holds no office. No position +could lend him an additional crown and even recognition is no longer +necessary. But it has been well that amid the first fierce fury +of anger and excitement, and the subsequent more bitter if not as +noble outpouring of faction's suspicions and innuendoes, that so +manly a man, so sagacious a counsellor, has been enabled to hold +so positive a balance. Cabinet officers, legal functionaries, +detectives, citizens--all have felt the wise, humane instincts, +and the capacious brain of this marked man affecting and influencing +for this fair equipoise and calmer judgment. + +Conversing freely on the evening of this visit, Colonel Ingersoll, +in the abundance of his pleasure at the White House news, submitted +to be interviewed, and with the following result.] + +_Question_. By-the-way, Colonel, you knew Guiteau slightly, we +believe. Are you aware that it has been attempted to show that +some money loaned or given him by yourself was really what he +purchased the pistol with? + +_Answer_. I knew Guiteau slightly; I saw him for the first time +a few days after the inauguration. He wanted a consulate, and +asked me to give him a letter to Secretary Blaine. I refused, on +the ground that I didn't know him. Afterwards he wanted me to lend +him twenty-five dollars, and I declined. I never loaned him a +dollar in the world. If I had, I should not feel that I was guilty +of trying to kill the President. On the principle that one would +hold the man guilty who had innocently loaned the money with which +he bought the pistol, you might convict the tailor who made his +clothes. If he had had no clothes he would not have gone to the +depot naked, and the crime would not have been committed. It is +hard enough for the man who did lend him the money to lose that, +without losing his reputation besides. Nothing can exceed the +utter absurdity of what has been said upon this subject. + +_Question_. How did Guiteau impress you and what have you remembered, +Colonel, of his efforts to reply to your lectures? + +_Answer_. I do not know that Guiteau impressed me in any way. He +appeared like most other folks in search of a place or employment. +I suppose he was in need. He talked about the same as other people, +and claimed that I ought to help him because he was from Chicago. +The second time he came to see me he said that he hoped I had no +prejudice against him on account of what he had said about me. I +told him that I never knew he had said anything against me. I +suppose now that he referred to what he had said in his lectures. +He went about the country replying to me. I have seen one or two +of his lectures. He used about the same arguments that Mr. Black +uses in his reply to my article in the _North American Review_, +and denounced me in about the same terms. He is undoubtedly a man +who firmly believes in the Old Testament, and has no doubt concerning +the New. I understand that he puts in most of his time now reading +the Bible and rebuking people who use profane language in his +presence. + +_Question_. You most certainly do not see any foundation for the +accusations of preachers like Sunderland, Newman and Power, _et +al_, that the teaching of a secular liberalism has had anything to +do with the shaping of Guiteau's character or the actions of his +vagabond life or the inciting to his murderous deeds? + +_Answer_. I do not think that the sermon of Mr. Power was in good +taste. It is utterly foolish to charge the "Stalwarts" with +committing or inciting the crime against the life of the President. +Ministers, though, as a rule, know but little of public affairs, +and they always account for the actions of people they do not like +or agree with, by attributing to them the lowest and basest motives. +This is the fault of the pulpit--always has been, and probably +always will be. The Rev. Dr. Newman of New York, tells us that +the crime of Guiteau shows three things: First, that ignorant men +should not be allowed to vote; second, that foreigners should not +be allowed to vote; and third, that there should not be so much +religious liberty. + +It turns out, first, the Guiteau is not an ignorant man; second, +that he is not a foreigner; and third, that he is a Christian. +Now, because an intelligent American Christian tries to murder the +President, this person says we ought to do something with ignorant +foreigners and Infidels. This is about the average pulpit logic. +Of course, all the ministers hate to admit the Guiteau was a +Christian; that he belonged to the Young Men's Christian Association, +or at least was generally found in their rooms; that he was a +follower of Moody and Sankey, and probably instrumental in the +salvation of a great many souls. I do not blame them for wishing +to get rid of this record. What I blame them for is that they are +impudent enough to charge the crime of Guiteau upon Infidelity. +Infidels and Atheists have often killed tyrants. They have often +committed crimes to increase the liberty of mankind; but the history +of the world will not show an instance where an Infidel or an +Atheist has assassinated any man in the interest of human slavery. +Of course, I am exceedingly glad that Guiteau is not an Infidel. +I am glad that he believes the Bible, glad that he has delivered +lectures against what he calls Infidelity, and glad that he has +been working for years with the missionaries and evangelists of +the United States. He is a man of small brain, badly balanced. +He believes the Bible to be the word of God. He believes in the +reality of heaven and hell. He believes in the miraculous. He is +surrounded by the supernatural, and when a man throws away his +reason, of course no one can tell what he will do. He is liable +to become a devotee or an assassin, a saint or a murderer; he may +die in a monastery or in a penitentiary. + +_Question_. According to your view, then, the species of fanaticism +taught in sectarian Christianity, by which Guiteau was led to assert +that Garfield dead would be better off then living--being in Paradise +--is more responsible than office seeking or political factionalism +for his deed? + +_Answer_. Guiteau seemed to think that the killing of the President +would only open the gates of Paradise to him, and that, after all, +under such circumstances, murder was hardly a crime. This same +kind of reasoning is resorted to in the pulpit to account for death. +If Guiteau had succeeded in killing the President, hundreds of +ministers would have said, "After all, it may be that the President +has lost nothing; it may be that our loss is his eternal gain; and +although it seems cruel that Providence should allow a man like +him to be murdered, still, it may have been the very kindest thing +that could have been done for him." Guiteau reasoned in this way, +and probably convinced himself, judging from his own life, that +this world was, after all, of very little worth. We are apt to +measure others by ourselves. Of course, I do not think Christianity +is responsible for this crime. Superstition may have been, in part +--probably was. But no man believes in Christianity because he +thinks it sanctions murder. At the same time, an absolute belief +in the Bible sometimes produces the worst form of murder. Take +that of Mr. Freeman, of Poeasset, who stabbed his little daughter +to the heart in accordance with what he believed to be the command +of God. This poor man imitated Abraham; and, for that matter, +Jehovah himself. There have been in the history of Christianity +thousands and thousands of such instances, and there will probably +be many thousands more that have been and will be produced by +throwing away our own reason and taking the word of some one else +--often a word that we do not understand. + +_Question_. What is your opinion as to the effect of praying for +the recovery of the President, and have you any confidence that +prayers are answered? + +_Answer_. My opinion as to the value of prayer is well known. I +take it that every one who prays for the President shows at least +his sympathy and good will. Personally, I have no objection to +anybody's praying. Those who think their prayers are answered +should pray. For all who honestly believe this, and who honestly +implore their Deity to watch over, protect, and save the life of +the President, I have only the kindliest feelings. + +It may be that a few will pray to be seen of men; but I suppose +that most people on a subject like this are honest. Personally, +I have not the slightest idea of the existence of the supernatural. +Prayer may affect the person who prays. It may put him in such a +frame of mind that he can better bear disappointment than if he +had not prayed; but I cannot believe that there is any being who +hears and answers prayer. + +When we remember the earthquakes that have devoured, the pestilences +that have covered the earth with corpses, and all the crimes and +agonies that have been inflicted upon the good and weak by the bad +and strong, it does not seem possible that anything can be accomplished +by prayer. I do not wish to hurt the feelings of anyone, but I +imagine that I have a right to my own opinion. If the President +gets well it will be because the bullet did not strike an absolutely +vital part; it will be because he has been well cared for; because +he has had about him intelligent and skillful physicians, men who +understood their profession. No doubt he has received great support +from the universal expression of sympathy and kindness. The +knowledge that fifty millions of people are his friends has given +him nerve and hope. Some of the ministers, I see, think that God +was actually present and deflected the ball. Another minister +tells us that the President would have been assassinated in a +church, but that God determined not to allow so frightful a crime +to be committed in so sacred an edifice. All this sounds to me +like perfect absurdity--simple noise. Yet, I presume that those +who talk in this way are good people and believe what they say. +Of course, they can give no reason why God did not deflect the ball +when Lincoln was assassinated. The truth is, the pulpit first +endeavors to find out the facts, and then to make a theory to fit +them. Whoever believes in a special providence must, of necessity, +by illogical and absurd; because it is impossible to make any +theological theory that some facts will not contradict. + +_Question_. Won't you give us, then, Colonel, your analysis of +this act, and the motives leading to it? + +_Answer_. I think Guiteau wanted an office and was refused. He +became importunate. He was, substantially, put out of the White +House. He became malicious. He made up his mind to be revenged. +This, in my judgment, is the diagnosis of his case. Since he has +been in jail he has never said one word about having been put out +of the White House; he is lawyer enough to know he must not furnish +any ground for malice. He is a miserable, malicious and worthless +wretch, infinitely egotistical, imagines that he did a great deal +toward the election of Garfield, and upon being refused the house +a serpent of malice coiled in his heart, and he determined to be +revenged. That is all! + +_Question_. Do you, in any way, see any reason or foundation for +the severe and bitter criticisms made against the Stalwart leaders +in connection with this crime? As you are well known to be a friend +of the administration, while not unfriendly to Mr. Conkling and +those acting with him, would you mind giving the public your opinion +on this point? + +_Answer_. Of course, I do not hold Arthur, Conkling and Platt +responsible for Guiteau's action. In the first excitement a thousand +unreasonable things were said; and when passion has possession of +the brain, suspicion is a welcome visitor. + +I do not think that any friend of the administration really believes +Conkling, Platt and Arthur responsible in the slightest degree. +Conkling wished to prevent the appointment of Robertson. The +President stood by his friend. One thing brought on another, Mr. +Conkling petulantly resigned, and made the mistake of his life. +There was a good deal of feeling, but, of course, no one dreamed +that the wretch, Guiteau, was lying in wait for the President's +life. In the first place, Guiteau was on the President's side, +and was bitterly opposed to Conkling. Guiteau did what he did from +malice and personal spite. I think the sermon preached last Sunday +in the Campbellite Church was unwise, ill advised, and calculated +to make enemies instead of friends. Mr. Conkling has been beaten. +He has paid for the mistake he made. If he can stand it, I can; +and why should there be any malice on the subject? Exceedingly +good men have made mistakes, and afterward corrected them. + +_Question_. Is it not true, Colonel Ingersoll, that the lesson of +this deed is to point the real and overwhelming need of re-knitting +and harmonizing the factions? + +_Answer_. There is hardly enough faction left for "knitting." +The party is in harmony now. All that is necessary is to stop +talking. The people of this country care very little as to who +holds any particular office. They wish to have the Government +administered in accordance with certain great principles, and they +leave the fields, the shops, and the stores once in four years, +for the purpose of attending to that business. In the meantime, +politicians quarrel about offices. The people go on. They plow +fields, they build homes, they open mines, they enrich the world, +they cover our country with prosperity, and enjoy the aforesaid +quarrels. But when the time comes, these gentlemen are forgotten. + +Principles take the place of politicians, and the people settle +these questions for themselves. + +--_Sunday Gazette_, Washington, D. C., July 24, 1881. + + +DISTRICT SUFFRAGE. + +_Question_. You have heretofore incidentally expressed yourself +on the matter of local suffrage in the District of Columbia. Have +you any objections to giving your present views of the question? + +_Answer_. I am still in favor of suffrage in the District. The +real trouble is, that before any substantial relief can be reached, +there must be a change in the Constitution of the United States. +The mere right to elect aldermen and mayors and policemen is of no +great importance. It is a mistake to take all political power from +the citizens of the District. Americans want to help rule the +country. The District ought to have at least one Representative +in Congress, and should elect one presidential elector. The people +here should have a voice. They should feel that they are a part +of this country. They should have the right to sue in all Federal +courts, precisely as though they were citizens of a State. This +city ought to have half a million of inhabitants. Thousands would +come here every year from every part of the Union, were it not for +the fact that they do not wish to become political nothings. They +think that citizenship is worth something, and they preserve it by +staying away from Washington. This city is a "flag of truce" where +wounded and dead politicians congregate; the Mecca of failures, +the perdition of claimants, the purgatory of seekers after place, +and the heaven only of those who neither want nor do anything. +Nothing is manufactured, no solid business is done in this city, +and there never will be until energetic, thrifty people wish to +make it their home, and they will not wish that until the people +of the District have something like the rights and political +prospects of other citizens. It is hard to see why the right to +representation should be taken from citizens living in the Capital +of the Nation. The believers in free government should believe in +a free capital. + +_Question_. Are there any valid reasons why the constitutional +limitations to the elective franchise in the District of Columbia +should not be removed by an amendment to that instrument? + +_Answer_. I cannot imagine one. If our Government is founded upon +a correct principle there can be no objection urged against suffrage +in the District that cannot, with equal force, be urged against +every part of the country. If freedom is dangerous here, it is +safe nowhere. If a man cannot be trusted in the District, he is +dangerous in the State. We do not trust the place where the man +happens to be; we trust the man. The people of this District cannot +remain in their present condition without becoming dishonored. +The idea of allowing themselves to be governed by commissioners, +in whose selection they have no part, is monstrous. The people +here beg, implore, request, ask, pray, beseech, intercede, crave, +urge, entreat, supplicate, memorialize and most humbly petition, +but they neither vote nor demand. They are not allowed to enter +the Temple of Liberty; they stay in the lobby or sit on the steps. + +_Question_. They say Paris is France, because her electors or +citizens control that municipality. Do you foresee any danger of +centralization in the full enfranchisement of the citizens of +Washington? + +_Answer_. There was a time when the intelligence of France was in +Paris. The country was besotted, ignorant, Catholic; Paris was +alive, educated, Infidel, full of new theories, of passion and +heroism. For two hundred years Paris was an athlete chained to a +corpse. The corpse was the rest of France. It is different now, +and the whole country is at last filling with light. Besides, +Paris has two millions of people. It is filled with factories. +It is not only the intellectual center, but the center of money +and business as well. Let the _Corps Legislatif_ meet anywhere, +and Paris will continue to be in a certain splendid sense--France. +Nothing like that can ever happen here unless you expect Washington +to outstrip New York, Philadelphia and Chicago. If allowing the +people of the District of Columbia to vote was the only danger to +the Republic, I should be politically the happiest of men. I think +it somewhat dangerous to deprive even one American citizen of the +right to govern himself. + +_Question_. Would you have Government clerks and officials appointed +to office here given the franchise in the District? and should +this, if given, include the women clerks? + +_Answer_. Citizenship should be determined here as in the States. +Clerks should not be allowed to vote unless their intention is to +make the District their home. When I make a government I shall +give one vote to each family. The unmarried should not be represented +except by parents. Let the family be the unit of representation. +Give each hearthstone a vote. + +_Question_. How do you regard the opposition of the local clergy +and of the Bourbon Democracy to enfranchising the citizens of the +District? + +_Answer_. I did not know that the clergy did oppose it. If, as +you say, they do oppose it because they fear it will extend the +liquor traffic, I think their reason exceedingly stupid. You cannot +make men temperate by shutting up a few of the saloons and leaving +others wide open. Intemperance must be met with other weapons. +The church ought not to appeal to force. What would the clergy of +Washington think should the miracle of Cana be repeated in their +day? Had they been in that country, with their present ideas, what +would they have said? After all there is a great deal of philosophy +in the following: "Better have the whole world voluntarily drunk +then sober on compulsion." Of course the Bourbons object. Objecting +is the business of a Bourbon. He always objects. If he does not +understand the question he objects because he does not, and if he +does understand he objects because he does. With him the reason +for objecting is the fact that he does. + +_Question_. What effect, if any, would the complete franchise to +our citizens have upon real estate and business in Washington? + +_Answer_. If the people here had representation according to +numbers--if the avenues to political preferment were open--if men +here could take part in the real government of the country, if they +could bring with them all their rights, this would be a great and +splendid Capital. We ought to have here a University, the best in +the world, a library second to none, and here should be gathered +the treasures of American art. The Federal Government has been +infinitely economical in the direction of information. I hope the +time will come when our Government will give as much to educate +two men as to kill one. + +--_The Capital_, Washington, D. C., December 18, 1881. + + +FUNERAL OF JOHN G. MILLS AND IMMORTALITY.* + +[* Robert G. Ingersoll rarely takes the trouble to answer critics. +His recent address over the dead body of his friend John G. Mills +has called forth a storm of denunciation from nearly every pulpit +in the country. The writer called at the Colonel's office in New York +Avenue yesterday and asked him to reply to some of the points made +against him. Reluctantly he assented.] + +_Question_. Have you seen the recent clerical strictures upon your +doctrines? + +_Answer_. There are always people kind enough to send me anything +they have the slightest reason to think I do not care to read. +They seem to be animated by a missionary spirit, and apparently +want to be in a position when they see me in hell to exclaim: "You +can't blame me. I sent you all the impudent articles I saw, and +if you died unconverted it was no fault of mine." + +_Question_. Did you notice that a Washington clergyman said that +the very fact that you were allowed to speak at the funeral was in +itself a sacrilege, and that you ought to have been stopped? + +_Answer_. Yes, I saw some such story. Of course, the clergy regard +marriages and funerals as the perquisites of the pulpit, and they +resent any interference on the part of the pews. They look at +these matters from a business point of view. They made the same +cry against civil marriages. They denied that marriage was a +contract, and insisted that it was a sacrament, and that it was +hardly binding unless a priest had blessed it. They used to bury +in consecrated ground, and had marks upon the graves, so that +Gabriel might know the ones to waken. The clergy wish to make +themselves essential. They must christen the babe--this gives them +possession of the cradle. They must perform the ceremony of marriage +--this gives them possession of the family. They must pronounce +the funeral discourse--this gives them possession of the dead. +Formerly they denied baptism to the children of the unbeliever, +marriage to him who denied the dogmas of the church, and burial to +honest men. The church wishes to control the world, and wishes to +sacrifice this world for the next. Of course I am in favor of the +utmost liberty upon all these questions. When a Presbyterian dies, +let a follower of John Calvin console the living by setting forth +the "Five Points." When a Catholic becomes clay, let a priest +perform such ceremonies as his creed demands, and let him picture +the delights of purgatory for the gratification of the living. +And when one dies who does not believe in any religion, having +expressed a wish that somebody say a few words above his remains, +I see no reason why such a proceeding should be stopped, and, for +my part, I see no sacrilege in it. Why should the reputations of +the dead, and the feelings of those who live, be placed at the +mercy of the ministers? A man dies not having been a Christian, +and who, according to the Christian doctrine, is doomed to eternal +fire. How would an honest Christian minister console the widow +and the fatherless children? How would he dare to tell what he +claims to be truth in the presence of the living? The truth is, +the Christian minister in the presence of death abandons his +Christianity. He dare not say above the coffin, "the soul that +once inhabited this body is now in hell." He would be denounced +as a brutal savage. Now and then a minister at a funeral has been +brave enough and unmannerly enough to express his doctrine in all +its hideousness of hate. I was told that in Chicago, many years +ago, a young man, member of a volunteer fire company, was killed +by the falling of a wall, and at the very moment the wall struck +him he was uttering a curse. He was a brave and splendid man. An +orthodox minister said above his coffin, in the presence of his +mother and mourning friends, that he saw no hope for the soul of +that young man. The mother, who was also orthodox, refused to have +her boy buried with such a sermon--stopped the funeral, took the +corpse home, engaged a Universalist preacher, and, on the next day +having heard this man say that there was no place in the wide +universe of God without hope, and that her son would finally stand +among the redeemed, this mother laid her son away, put flowers upon +his grave, and was satisfied. + +_Question_. What have you to say to the charge that you are +preaching the doctrine of despair and hopelessness, when they have +the comforting assurances of the Christian religion to offer? + +_Answer_. All I have to say is this: If the Christian religion +is true, as commonly preached--and when I speak of Christianity, +I speak of the orthodox Christianity of the day--if that be true, +those whom I have loved the best are now in torment. Those to whom +I am most deeply indebted are now suffering the vengeance of God. +If this religion be true, the future is of no value to me. I care +nothing about heaven, unless the ones I love and have loved are +there. I know nothing about the angels. I might not like them, +and they might not like me. I would rather meet there the ones +who have loved me here--the ones who would have died for me, and +for whom I would have died; and if we are to be eternally divided +--not because we differed in our views of justice, not because we +differed about friendship or love or candor, or the nobility of +human action, but because we differed in belief about the atonement +or baptism or the inspiration of the Scriptures--and if some of us +are to be in heaven, and some in hell, then, for my part, I prefer +eternal sleep. To me the doctrine of annihilation is infinitely +more consoling, than the probable separation preached by the orthodox +clergy of our time. Of course, even if there be a God, I like +persons that I know, better than I can like him--we have more in +common--I know more about them; and how is it possible for me to +love the infinite and unknown better than the ones I know? Why +not have the courage to say that if there be a God, all I know +about him I know by knowing myself and my friends--by knowing +others? And, after all, is not a noble man, is not a pure woman, +the finest revelation we have of God--if there be one? Of what +use is it to be false to ourselves? What moral quality is there +in theological pretence? Why should a man say that he loves God +better than he does his wife or his children or his brother or his +sister or his warm, true friend? Several ministers have objected +to what I said about my friend Mr. Mills, on the ground that it +was not calculated to console the living. Mr. Mills was not a +Christian. He denied the inspiration of the Scriptures. He believed +that restitution was the best repentance, and that, after all, sin +is a mistake. He was not a believer in total depravity, or in the +atonement. He denied these things. He was an unbeliever. Now, +let me ask, what consolation could a Christian minister have given +to his family? He could have said to the widow and the orphans, +to the brother and sister: "Your husband, your father, your brother, +is now in hell; dry your tears; weep not for him, but try and save +yourselves. He has been damned as a warning to you, care no more +for him, why should you weep over the grave of a man whom God thinks +fit only to be eternally tormented? Why should you love the memory +of one whom God hates?" The minister could have said: "He had an +opportunity--he did not take it. The life-boat was lowered--he +would not get in--he has been drowned, and the waves of God's wrath +will sweep over him forever." This is the consolation of Christianity +and the only honest consolation that Christianity can have for the +widow and orphans of an unbeliever. Suppose, however, that the +Christian minister has too tender a heart to tell what he believes +to be the truth--then he can say to the sorrowing friends: "Perhaps +the man repented before he died; perhaps he is not in hell, perhaps +you may meet him in heaven;" and this "perhaps" is a consolation +not growing out of Christianity, but out of the politeness of the +preacher--out of paganism. + +_Question_. Do you not think that the Bible has consolation for +those who have lost their friends? + +_Answer_. There is about the Old Testament this strange fact--I +find in it no burial service. There is in it, I believe, from the +first mistake in Genesis to the last curse in Malachi, not one word +said over the dead as to their place and state. When Abraham died, +nobody said: "He is still alive--he is in another world." When +the prophets passed away, not one word was said as to the heaven +to which they had gone. In the Old Testament, Saul inquired of +the witch, and Samuel rose. Samuel did not pretend that he had +been living, or that he was alive, but asked: "Why hast thou +disquieted me?" He did not pretend to have come from another world. +And when David speaks of his son, saying that he could not come +back to him, but that he, David, could go to his son, that is but +saying that he, too, must die. There is not in the Old Testament +one hope of immortality. It is expressly asserted that there is +no difference between the man and beast--that as the one dieth so +dieth the other. There is one little passage in Job which commentators +have endeavored to twist into a hope of immortality. Here is a +book of hundreds and hundreds of pages, and hundreds and hundreds +of chapters--a revelation from God--and in it one little passage, +which, by a mistranslation, is tortured into saying something about +another life. And this is the Old Testament. I have sometimes +thought that the Jews, when slaves in Egypt, were mostly occupied +in building tombs for mummies, and that they became so utterly +disgusted with that kind of work, that the moment they founded a +nation for themselves they went out of the tomb business. The +Egyptians were believers in immortality, and spent almost their +entire substance upon the dead. The living were impoverished to +enrich the dead. The grave absorbed the wealth of Egypt. The +industry of a nation was buried. Certainly the Old Testament has +nothing clearly in favor of immortality. In the New Testament we +are told about the "kingdom of heaven,"--that it is at hand--and +about who shall be worthy, but it is hard to tell what is meant by +the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of heaven was apparently to be +in this world, and it was about to commence. The Devil was to be +chained for a thousand years, the wicked were to be burned up, and +Christ and his followers were to enjoy the earth. This certainly +was the doctrine of Paul when he says: "Behold, I show you a +mystery; We shall not all _sleep_, but we shall all be _changed_. +In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for +the trumpet shall sound, and the _dead_ shall be _raised_ incorruptible, +and _we_ shall be _changed_. For this corruptible must put on +incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." According +to this doctrine, those who were alive were to be changed, and +those who had died were to be raised from the dead. Paul certainly +did not refer to any other world beyond this. All these things +were to happen here. The New Testament is made up of the fragments +of many religions. It is utterly inconsistent with itself; and +there is not a particle of evidence of the resurrection and ascension +of Christ--neither in the nature of things could there be. It is +a thousand times more probable that people were mistaken than that +such things occurred. If Christ really rose from the dead, he +should have shown himself, not simply to his disciples, but to the +very men who crucified him--to Herod, to the high priest, to Pilate. +He should have made a triumphal entry into Jerusalem after his +resurrection, instead of before. He should have shown himself to +the Sadducees,--to those who denied the existence of spirit. Take +from the New Testament its doctrine of eternal pain--the idea that +we can please God by acts of self-denial that can do no good to +others--take away all its miracles, and I have no objection to all +the good things in it--no objection to the hope of a future life, +if such a hope is expressed--not the slightest. And I would not +for the world say anything to take from any mind a hope in which +dwells the least comfort, but a doctrine that dooms a large majority +of mankind to eternal flames ought not to be called a consolation. +What I say is, that the writers of the New Testament knew no more +about the future state than I do, and no less. The horizon of life +has never been pierced. The veil between time and what is called +eternity, has never been raised, so far as I know; and I say of +the dead what all others must say if they say only what they know. +There is no particular consolation in a guess. Not knowing what +the future has in store for the human race, it is far better to +prophesy good than evil. It is better to hope that the night has +a dawn, that the sky has a star, than to build a heaven for the +few, and a hell for the many. It is better to leave your dead in +doubt than in fire--better that they should sleep in shadow than +in the lurid flames of perdition. And so I say, and always have +said, let us hope for the best. The minister asks: "What right +have you to hope? It is sacrilegious in you!" But, whether the +clergy like it or not, I shall always express my real opinion, and +shall always be glad to say to those who mourn: "There is in death, +as I believe, nothing worse than sleep. Hope for as much better +as you can. Under the seven-hued arch let the dead rest." Throw +away the Bible, and you throw away the fear of hell, but the hope +of another life remains, because the hope does not depend upon a +book--it depends upon the heart--upon human affection. The fear, +so far as this generation is concerned, is born of the book, and +that part of the book was born of savagery. Whatever of hope is +in the book is born, as I said before, of human affection, and the +higher our civilization the greater the affection. I had rather +rest my hope of something beyond the grave upon the human heart, +than upon what they call the Scriptures, because there I find +mingled with the hope of something good the threat of infinite +evil. Among the thistles, thorns and briers of the Bible is one +pale and sickly flower of hope. Among all its wild beasts and +fowls, only one bird flies heavenward. I prefer the hope without +the thorns, without the briers, thistles, hyenas, and serpents. + +_Question_. Do you not know that it is claimed that immortality +was brought to light in the New Testament, that that, in fact, was +the principal mission of Christ? + +_Answer_. I know that Christians claim that the doctrine of +immortality was first taught in the New Testament. They also claim +that the highest morality was found there. Both these claims are +utterly without foundation. Thousands of years before Christ was +born--thousands of years before Moses saw the light--the doctrine +of immortality was preached by the priests of Osiris and Isis. +Funeral discourses were pronounced over the dead, ages before +Abraham existed. When a man died in Egypt, before he was taken +across the sacred lake, he had a trial. Witnesses appeared, and +if he had done anything wrong, for which he had not done restitution, +he was not taken across the lake. The living friends, in disgrace, +carried the body back, and it was buried outside of what might be +called consecrated ground, while the ghost was supposed to wander +for a hundred years. Often the children of the dead would endeavor +to redeem the poor ghost by acts of love and kindness. When he +came to the spirit world there was the god Anubis, who weighed his +heart in the scales of eternal justice, and if the good deed +preponderated he entered the gates of Paradise; if the evil, he +had to go back to the world, and be born in the bodies of animals +for the purpose of final purification. At last, the good deeds +would outweigh the evil, and, according to the religion of Egypt, +the latch-string of heaven would never be drawn in until the last +wanderer got home. Immortality was also taught in India, and, in +fact, in all the countries of antiquity. Wherever men have loved, +wherever they have dreamed, wherever hope has spread its wings, +the idea of immortality has existed. But nothing could be worse +than the immortality promised in the New Testament--admitting that +it is so promised--eternal joy side by side with eternal pain. +Think of living forever, knowing that countless millions are +suffering eternal pain! How much better it would be for God to +commit suicide and let all life and motion cease! Christianity +has no consolation except for the Christian, and if a Christian +minister endeavors to console the widow of an unbeliever he must +resort, not to his religion, but to his sympathy--to the natural +promptings of the heart. He is compelled to say: "After all, may +be God is not so bad as we think," or, "May be your husband was +better than he appeared; perhaps somehow, in some way, the dear +man has squeezed in; he was a good husband, he was a kind father, +and even if he is in hell, may be he is in the temperate zone, +where they have occasional showers, and where, if the days are hot, +the nights are reasonably cool." All I ask of Christian ministers +is to tell what they believe to be the truth--not to borrow ideas +from the pagans--not to preach the mercy born of unregenerate +sympathy. Let them tell their real doctrines. If they will do +that, they will not have much influence. If orthodox Christianity +is true, a large majority of the man who have made this world fit +to live in are now in perdition. A majority of the Revolutionary +soldiers have been damned. A majority of the man who fought for +the integrity of this Union--a majority who were starved at Libby +and Andersonville are now in hell. + +_Question_. Do you deny the immortality of the soul? + +_Answer_. I have never denied the immortality of the soul. I have +simply been honest. I have said: "I do not know." Long ago, in +my lecture on "The Ghosts," I used the following language: "The +idea of immortality, that like a sea has ebbed and flowed in the +human heart, with its countless waves of hope and fear beating +against the shores and rocks of time and fate, was not born of any +book, nor of any creed, nor of any religion. It was born of human +affection, and it will continue to ebb and flow beneath the mists +and clouds of doubt and darkness as long as love kisses the lips +of death. It is the rainbow Hope, shining upon the tears of grief." + +--_The Post_, Washington, D. C., April 30, 1883. + + +STAR ROUTE AND POLITICS.* + +[* Col. Ingersoll entertains very pronounced ideas concerning +President Arthur, Attorney-General Brewster and divers other people, +which will be found presented herewith in characteristically piquant +style. With his family, the eloquent advocate has a cottage here, +and finds brain and body rest and refreshment in the tumbling waves. +This noon, in the height of a tremendous thunder storm, I bumped +against his burly figure in the roaring crest, and, after the first +shock had passed, determined to utilize the providential coincidence. +The water was warm, our clothes were in the bathing houses, and +comfort was more certain where we were than anywhere else. The +Colonel is an expert swimmer and as a floater he cannot be beaten. +He was floating when we bumped. Spouting a pint of salt water from +his mouth, he nearly choked with laughter as in answer to my question +he said: ] + +No, I do not believe there will be any more Star Route trials. +There is so much talk about the last one, there will not be time +for another. + +_Question_. Did you anticipate a verdict? + +_Answer_. I did anticipate a verdict, and one of acquittal. I +knew that the defendants were entitled to such a verdict. I knew +that the Government had signally failed to prove a case. There +was nothing but suspicion, from which malice was inferred. The +direct proof was utterly unworthy of belief. The direct witness +was caught with letters he had forged. This one fact was enough +to cover the prosecution with confusion. The fact that Rerdell +sat with the other defendants and reported to the Government from +day to day satisfied the jury as to the value of his testimony, +and the animus of the Department of Justice. Besides, Rerdell had +offered to challenge such jurors as the Government might select. +He handed counsel for defendants a list of four names that he wanted +challenged. At that time it was supposed that each defendant would +be allowed to challenge four jurors. Afterward the Court decided +that all the defendants must be considered as one party and had +the right to challenge four and no more. Of the four names on +Rerdell's list the Government challenged three and Rerdell tried +to challenge the other. This was what is called a coincidence. +Another thing had great influence with the jury--the evidence of +the defendants was upon all material points so candid and so natural, +so devoid of all coloring, that the jury could not help believing. +If the people knew the evidence they would agree with the jury. +When we remember that there were over ten thousand star routes, it +is not to be wondered at that some mistakes were made--that in some +instances too much was paid and in others too little. + +_Question_. What has been the attitude of President Arthur? + +_Answer_. We asked nothing from the President. We wanted no help +from him. We expected that he would take no part--that he would +simply allow the matter to be settled by the court in the usual +way. I think that he made one very serious mistake. He removed +officers on false charges without giving them a hearing. He deposed +Marshal Henry because somebody said that he was the friend of the +defendants. Henry was a good officer and an honest man. The +President removed Ainger for the same reason. This was a mistake. +Ainger should have been heard. There is always time to do justice. +No day is too short for justice, and eternity is not long enough +to commit a wrong. It was thought that the community could be +terrorized:-- + +_First_. The President dismissed Henry and Ainger. + +_Second_. The Attorney-General wrote a letter denouncing the +defendants as thieves and robbers. + +_Third_. Other letters from Bliss and MacVeagh were published. + +_Fourth_. Dixon, the foreman of the first jury, was indicted. + +_Fifth_. Members of the first jury voting "guilty" were in various +ways rewarded. + +_Sixth_. Bargains were made with Boone and Rerdell. The cases +against Boone were to be dismissed and Rerdell was promised immunity. +Under these circumstances the second trial commenced. But of all +the people in this country the citizens of Washington care least +for Presidents and members of the Cabinets. They know what these +officers are made of. They know that they are simply folks--that +they do not hold office forever--that the Jupiters of to-day are +often the pygmies of to-morrow. They have seen too many people +come in with trumpets and flags and go out with hisses and rags to +be overawed by the deities of a day. They have seen Lincoln and +they are not to be frightened by his successors. Arthur took part +to the extent of turning out men suspected of being friendly to +the defence. Arthur was in a difficult place. He was understood +to be the friend of Dorsey and, of course, had to do something. +Nothing is more dangerous than a friend in power. He is obliged +to show that he is impartial, and it always takes a good deal of +injustice to establish a reputation for fairness. + +_Question_. Was there any ground to expect aid or any different +action on Arthur's part? + +_Answer_. All we expected was that Arthur would do as the soldier +wanted the Lord to do at New Orleans--"Just take neither side." + +_Question_. Why did not Brewster speak? + +_Answer_. The Court would not allow two closings. The Attorney- +General did not care to speak in the "middle." He wished to close, +and as he could not do that without putting Mr. Merrick out, he +concluded to remain silent. The defendants had no objection to +his speaking, but they objected to two closing arguments for the +Government, and the Court decided they were right. Of course, I +understand nothing about the way in which the attorneys for the +prosecution arranged their difficulties. That was nothing to me; +neither do I care what money they received--all that is for the +next Congress. It is not for me to speak of those questions. + +_Question_. Will there be other trials? + +_Answer_. I think not. It does not seem likely that other attorneys +will want to try, and the old ones have. My opinion is that we +have had the last of the Star Route trials. It was claimed that +the one tried was the strongest. If this is so the rest had better +be dismissed. I think the people are tired of the whole business. +It now seems probable that all the time for the next few years will +be taken up in telling about the case that was tried. I see that +Cook is telling about MacVeagh and James and Brewster and Bliss; +Walsh is giving his opinion of Kellogg and Foster; Bliss is saying +a few words about Cook and Gibson; Brewster is telling what Bliss +told him; Gibson will have his say about Garfield and MacVeagh, +and it now seems probable that we shall get the bottom facts about +the other jury--the actions of Messrs. Hoover, Bowen, Brewster +Cameron and others. Personally I have no interest in the business. + +_Question_. How does the next campaign look? + +_Answer_. The Republicans are making all the mistakes they can, +and the only question now is, Can the Democrats make more? The +tariff will be one of the great questions, and may be the only one +except success. The Democrats are on both sides of the question. +They hate to give up the word "only." Only for that word they +might have succeeded in 1880. If they can let "only" alone, and +say they want "a tariff for revenue" they will do better. The fact +is the people are not in favor of free trade, neither do they want +a tariff high enough to crush a class, but they do want a tariff +to raise a revenue and to protect our industries. I am for protection +because it diversifies industries and develops brain--allows us to +utilize all the muscle and brain we have. A party attacking the +manufacturing interests of this country will fail. There are too +many millions of dollars invested and too many millions of people +interested. The country is becoming alike interested in this +question. We are no longer divided, as in slavery times, into +manufacturing and agricultural districts or sections. Georgia, +Alabama, Tennessee, Louisiana and Texas have manufacturing interests. +And the Western States believe in the protection of their industries. +The American people have a genius for manufacturing, a genius for +invention. We are not the greatest painters or sculptors or +scientists, but we are without doubt the greatest inventors. If +we were all engaged in one business we would become stupid. +Agricultural countries produce great wealth, but are never rich. +To get rich it is necessary to mix thought with labor. To raise +the raw material is a question of strength; to manufacture, to put +it in useful and beautiful forms, is a question of mind. There is +a vast difference between the value of, say, a milestone and a +statue, and yet the labor expended in getting the raw material is +about the same. The point, after all, is this: First, we must +have revenue; second, shall we get this by direct taxation or shall +we tax imports and at the same time protect American labor? The +party that advocates reasonable protection will succeed.* + +[* At this point, with far away peals of thunder, the storm ceased, +the sun reappeared and a vault of heavenly blue swung overhead. +"Let us get out," said Colonel Ingersoll. Suiting the action to +the word, the Colonel struck out lustily for the beach, on which, +hard as a rock and firm as flint, he soon planted his sturdy form. +And as he lumbered across the sand to the side door of his comfortable +cottage, some three hundred feet from the surf, the necessarily +suggested contrast between Ingersoll in court and Ingersoll in soaked +flannels was illustrated with forcible comicality. Half an hour +later he was found in the cozy library puffing a high flavored Havana, +and listening to home-made music of delicious quality. Ingersoll at +home is pleasant to contemplate. His sense of personal freedom is +there aptly pictured. Loving wife and affectionate daughters form, +with happy-faced and genial-hearted father, a model circle into which +friends deem it a privilege to enter and a pleasure to remain. + +Continuing the conversation, ] + +_Question_. In view of all this, where do you think the presidential +candidate will come from? + +_Answer_. From the West. + +_Question_. Why so? + +_Answer_. The South and East must compromise. Both can trust the +West. The West represents the whole country. There is no +provincialism in the West. The West is not old enough to have the +prejudice of section; it is too prosperous to have hatred, too +great to feel envy. + +_Question_. You do not seem to think that Arthur has a chance? + +_Answer_. No Vice-President was ever made President by the people. +It is natural to resent the accident that gave the Vice-President +the place. They regard the Vice-President as children do a +stepmother. He is looked upon as temporary--a device to save the +election--a something to stop a gap--a lighter--a political raft. +He holds the horse until another rider is found. People do not +wish death to suggest nominees for the presidency. I do not believe +it will be possible for Mr. Arthur, no matter how well he acts, to +overcome this feeling. The people like a new man. There is some +excitement in the campaign, and besides they can have the luxury +of believing that the new man is a great man. + +_Question_. Do you not think Arthur has grown and is a greater +man than when he was elected? + +_Answer_. Arthur was placed in very trying circumstances, and, I +think, behaved with great discretion. But he was Vice-President, +and that is a vice that people will not pardon. + +_Question_. How do you regard the situation in Ohio? + +_Answer_. I hear that the Republicans are attacking Hoadly, saying +that he is an Infidel. I know nothing about Mr. Hoadly's theological +sentiments, but he certainly has the right to have and express his +own views. If the Republicans of Ohio have made up their minds to +disfranchise the Liberals, the sooner they are beaten the better. +Why should the Republican party be so particular about religious +belief? Was Lincoln an orthodox Christian? Were the founders of +the party--the men who gave it heart and brain--conspicuous for +piety? Were the abolitionists all believers in the inspiration of +the Bible? Is Judge Hoadly to be attacked because he exercises +the liberty that he gives to others? Has not the Republican party +trouble enough with the spirituous to let the spiritual alone? If +the religious issue is made, I hope that the party making it will +be defeated. I know nothing about the effect of the recent decision +of the Supreme Court of Ohio. It is a very curious decision and +seems to avoid the Constitution with neatness and despatch. The +decision seems to rest on the difference between the words tax and +license--_I. e._, between allowing a man to sell whiskey for a tax +of one hundred dollars or giving him a license to sell whiskey and +charging him one hundred dollars. In this, the difference is in +the law instead of the money. So far all the prohibitory legislation +on the liquor question has been a failure. Beer is victorious, +and Gambrinus now has Olympus all to himself. On his side is the +"bail"-- + +_Question_. But who will win? + +_Answer_. The present indications are favorable to Judge Hoadly. +It is an off year. The Ohio leaders on one side are not in perfect +harmony. The Germans are afraid, and they generally vote the +Democratic ticket when in doubt. The effort to enforce the Sunday +law, to close the gardens, to make one day in the week desolate +and doleful, will give the Republicans a great deal of hard work. + +_Question_. How about Illinois? + +_Answer_. Republican always. The Supreme Court of Illinois has +just made a good decision. That Court decided that a contract made +on Sunday can be enforced. In other words, that Sunday is not holy +enough to sanctify fraud. You can rely on a State with a Court +like that. There is very little rivalry in Illinois. I think that +General Oglesby will be the next Governor. He is one of the best +men in that State or any other. + +_Question_. What about Indiana? + +_Answer_. In that State I think General Gresham is the coming man. +He was a brave soldier, an able, honest judge, and he will fill +with honor any position he may be placed in. He is an excellent +lawyer, and has as much will as was ever put in one man. McDonald +is the most available man for the Democrats. He is safe and in +every respect reliable. He is without doubt the most popular man +in his party. + +_Question_. Well, Colonel, what are you up to? + +_Answer_. Nothing. I am surrounded by sand, sea and sky. I listen +to music, bathe in the surf and enjoy myself. I am wondering why +people take interest in politics; why anybody cares about anything; +why everybody is not contented; why people want to climb the greased +pole of office and then dodge the brickbats of enemies and rivals; +why any man wishes to be President, or a member of Congress, or in +the Cabinet, or do anything except to live with the ones he loves, +and enjoy twenty-four hours every day. I wonder why all New York +does not come to Long Beach and hear Schreiner's Band play the +music of Wagner, the greatest of all composers. Finally, in the +language of Walt Whitman, "I loaf and invite my soul." + +--_The Herald_, New York, July 1, 1883. + + +THE INTERVIEWER. + +_Question_. What do you think of newspaper interviewing? + +_Answer_. I believe that James Redpath claims to have invented +the "interview." This system opens all doors, does away with +political pretence, batters down the fortifications of dignity and +official importance, pulls masks from solemn faces, compels everybody +to show his hand. The interviewer seems to be omnipresent. He is +the next man after the accident. If a man should be blown up he +would likely fall on an interviewer. He is the universal interrogation +point. He asks questions for a living. If the interviewer is fair +and honest he is useful, if the other way, he is still interesting. +On the whole, I regard the interviewer as an exceedingly important +person. But whether he is good or bad, he has come to stay. He +will interview us until we die, and then ask the "friends" a few +questions just to round the subject off. + +_Question_. What do you think of the tendency of newspapers is at +present? + +_Answer_. The papers of the future, I think, will be "news" papers. +The editorial is getting shorter and shorter. The paragraphist is +taking the place of the heavy man. People rather form their own +opinions from the facts. Of course good articles will always find +readers, but the dreary, doleful, philosophical dissertation has +had its day. The magazines will fall heir to such articles; then +religious weeklies will take them up, and then they will cease +altogether. + +_Question_. Do you think the people lead the newspapers, or do +the newspapers lead them? + +_Answer_. The papers lead and are led. Most papers have for sale +what people want to buy. As a rule the people who buy determine +the character of the thing sold. The reading public grow more +discriminating every year, and, as a result, are less and less +"led." Violent papers--those that most freely attack private +character--are becoming less hurtful, because they are losing their +own reputations. Evil tends to correct itself. People do not +believe all they read, and there is a growing tendency to wait and +hear from the other side. + +_Question_. Do newspapers to-day exercise as much influence as +they did twenty-five years ago? + +_Answer_. More, by the facts published, and less, by editorials. +As we become more civilized we are governed less by persons and +more by principles--less by faith and more by fact. The best of +all leaders is the man who teaches people to lead themselves. + +_Question_. What would you define public opinion to be? + +_Answer_. First, in the widest sense, the opinion of the majority, +including all kinds of people. Second, in a narrower sense, the +opinion of the majority of the intellectual. Third, in actual +practice, the opinion of those who make the most noise. Fourth, +public opinion is generally a mistake, which history records and +posterity repeats. + +_Question_. What do you regard as the result of your lectures? + +_Answer_. In the last fifteen years I have delivered several +hundred lectures. The world is growing more and more liberal every +day. The man who is now considered orthodox, a few years ago would +have been denounced as an Infidel. People are thinking more and +believing less. The pulpit is losing influence. In the light of +modern discovery the creeds are growing laughable. A theologian +is an intellectual mummy, and excites attention only as a curiosity. +Supernatural religion has outlived its usefulness. The miracles +and wonders of the ancients will soon occupy the same tent. Jonah +and Jack the Giant Killer, Joshua and Red Riding Hood, Noah and +Neptune, will all go into the collection of the famous Mother +Hubbard. + +--_The Morning Journal_, New York, July 3, 1883. + + +POLITICS AND PROHIBITION. + +_Question_. What do you think of the result in Ohio? + +_Answer_. In Ohio prohibition did more harm to the Republican +chances than anything else. The Germans hold the Republicans +responsible. The German people believe in personal liberty. They +came to America to get it, and they regard any interference in the +manner or quantity of their food and drink as an invasion of personal +rights. They claim they are not questions to be regulated by law, +and I agree with them. I believe that people will finally learn +to use spirits temperately and without abuse, but teetotalism is +intemperance in itself, which breeds resistance, and without +destroying the rivulet of the appetite only dams it and makes it +liable to break out at any moment. You can prevent a man from +stealing by tying his hands behind him, but you cannot make him +honest. Prohibition breeds too many spies and informers, and makes +neighbors afraid of each other. It kills hospitality. Again, the +Republican party in Ohio is endeavoring to have Sunday sanctified +by the Legislature. The working people want freedom on Sunday. +They wish to enjoy themselves, and all laws now making to prevent +innocent amusement, beget a spirit of resentment among the common +people. I feel like resenting all such laws, and unless the +Republican party reforms in that particular, it ought to be defeated. +I regard those two things as the principal causes of the Republican +party's defeat in Ohio. + +_Question_. Do you believe that the Democratic success was due to +the possession of reverse principles? + +_Answer_. I do not think that the Democratic party is in favor of +liberty of thought and action in these two regards, from principle, +but rather from policy. Finding the course pursued by the Republicans +unpopular, they adopted the opposite mode, and their success is a +proof of the truth of what I contend. One great trouble in the +Republican party is bigotry. The pulpit is always trying to take +charge. The same thing exists in the Democratic party to a less +degree. The great trouble here is that its worst element--Catholicism +--is endeavoring to get control. + +_Question_. What causes operated for the Republican success in +Iowa? + +_Answer_. Iowa is a prohibition State and almost any law on earth +as against anything to drink, can be carried there. There are no +large cities in the State and it is much easier to govern, but even +there the prohibition law is bound to be a failure. It will breed +deceit and hypocrisy, and in the long run the influence will be bad. + +_Question_. Will these two considerations cut any figure in the +presidential campaign of 1884? + +_Answer_. The party, as a party, will have nothing to do with +these questions. These matters are local. Whether the Republicans +are successful will depend more upon the country's prosperity. If +things should be generally in pretty good shape in 1884, the people +will allow the party to remain in power. Changes of administration +depend a great deal on the feeling of the country. If crops are +bad and money is tight, the people blame the administration, whether +it is responsible or not. If a ship going down the river strikes +a snag, or encounters a storm, a cry goes up against the captain. +It may not have been his fault, but he is blamed, all the same, +and the passengers at once clamor for another captain. So it is +in politics. + +If nothing interferes between this and 1884, the Republican party +will continue. Otherwise it will be otherwise. But the principle +of prosperity as applied to administrative change is strong. If +the panic of 1873 had occurred in 1876 there would have been no +occasion for a commission to sit on Tilden. If it had struck us +in 1880, Hancock would have been elected. Neither result would +have its occasion in the superiority of the Democratic party, but +in the belief that the Republican party was in some vague way +blamable for the condition of things, and there should be a change. +The Republican party is not as strong as it used to be. The old +leaders have dropped out and no persons have yet taken their places. +Blaine has dropped out, and is now writing a book. Conkling dropped +out and is now practicing law, and so I might go on enumerating +leaders who have severed their connection with the party and are +no longer identified with it. + +_Question_. What is your opinion regarding the Republican nomination +for President? + +_Answer_. My belief is that the Republicans will have to nominate +some man who has not been conspicuous in any faction, and upon whom +all can unite. As a consequence he must be a new man. The Democrats +must do the same. They must nominate a new man. The old ones have +been defeated so often that they start handicapped with their own +histories, and failure in the past is very poor raw material out +of which to manufacture faith for the future. My own judgment is +that for the Democrats, McDonald is as strong a man as they can +get. He is a man of most excellent sense and would be regarded as +a safe man. Tilden? He is dead, and he occupies no stronger place +in the general heart than a graven image. With no magnetism, he +has nothing save his smartness to recommend him. + +_Question_. What are your views, generally expressed, on the +tariff? + +_Answer_. There are a great many Democrats for protection and a +great many for so-called free trade. I think the large majority +of American people favor a reasonable tariff for raising our revenue +and protecting our manufactures. I do not believe in tariff for +revenue only, but for revenue and protection. The Democrats would +have carried the country had they combined revenue and incidental +protection. + +_Question_. Are they rectifying the error now? + +_Answer_. I believe they are, already. They will do it next fall. +If they do not put it in their platform they will embody it in +their speeches. I do not regard the tariff as a local, but a +national issue, notwithstanding Hancock inclined to the belief that +it was the former. + +--_The Times_, Chicago, Illinois, October 13, 1883. + + +THE REPUBLICAN DEFEAT IN OHIO. + +_Question_. What is your explanation of the Republican disaster +last Tuesday? + +_Answer_. Too much praying and not enough paying, is my explanation +of the Republican defeat. + +_First_. I think the attempt to pass the Prohibition Amendment +lost thousands of votes. The people of this country, no matter +how much they may deplore the evils of intemperance, are not yet +willing to set on foot a system of spying into each other's affairs. +They know that prohibition would need thousands of officers--that +it would breed informers and spies and peekers and skulkers by the +hundred in every county. They know that laws do not of themselves +make good people. Good people make good laws. Americans do not +wish to be temperate upon compulsion. The spirit that resents +interference in these matters is the same spirit that made and +keeps this a free country. All this crusade and prayer-meeting +business will not do in politics. We must depend upon the countless +influences of civilization, upon science, art, music--upon the +softening influences of kindness and argument. As life becomes +valuable people will take care of it. Temperance upon compulsion +destroys something more valuable than itself--liberty. I am for +the largest liberty in all things. + +_Second_. The Prohibitionists, in my opinion, traded with Democrats. +The Democrats were smart enough to know that prohibition could not +carry, and that they could safely trade. The Prohibitionists were +insane enough to vote for their worst enemies, just for the sake +of polling a large vote for prohibition, and were fooled as usual. + +_Thirdly_. Certain personal hatreds of certain Republican politicians. +These were the causes which led to Republican defeat in Ohio. + +_Question_. Will it necessitate the nomination of an Ohio Republican +next year? + +_Answer_. I do not think so. Defeat is apt to breed dissension, +and on account of that dissension the party will have to take a +man from some other State. One politician will say to another, +"You did it," and another will reply, "You are the man who ruined +the party." I think we have given Ohio her share; certainly she +has given us ours. + +_Question_. Will this reverse seriously affect Republican chances +next year? + +_Answer_. If the country is prosperous next year, if the crops +are good, if prices are fair, if Pittsburg is covered with smoke, +if the song of the spindle is heard in Lowell, if stocks are healthy, +the Republicans will again succeed. If the reverse as to crops +and forges and spindles, then the Democrats will win. It is a +question of "chich-bugs," and floods and drouths. + +_Question_. Who, in your judgment, would be the strongest man the +Republicans could put up? + +_Answer_. Last year I thought General Sherman, but he has gone to +Missouri, and now I am looking around. The first day I find out +I will telegraph you. + +--_The Democrat_, Dayton, Ohio, October 15, 1883. + + +THE CIVIL RIGHTS BILL. + +_Question_. What do you think of the recent opinion of the Supreme +Court touching the rights of the colored man? + +_Answer_. I think it is all wrong. The intention of the framers +of the amendment, by virtue of which the law was passed, was that +no distinction should be made in inns, in hotels, cars, or in +theatres; in short, in public places, on account of color, race, +or previous condition. The object of the men who framed that +amendment to the Constitution was perfectly clear, perfectly well +known, perfectly understood. They intended to secure, by an +amendment to the fundamental law, what had been fought for by +hundreds of thousands of men. They knew that the institution of +slavery had cost rebellion; the also knew that the spirit of caste +was only slavery in another form. They intended to kill that +spirit. Their object was that the law, like the sun, should shine +upon all, and that no man keeping a hotel, no corporation running +cars, no person managing a theatre should make any distinction on +account of race or color. This amendment is above all praise. It +was the result of a moral exaltation, such as the world never before +had seen. There were years during the war, and after, when the +American people were simply sublime; when their generosity was +boundless; when they were willing to endure any hardship to make +this an absolutely free country. + +This decision of the Supreme Court puts the best people of the +colored race at the mercy of the meanest portion of the white race. +It allows a contemptible white man to trample upon a good colored +man. I believe in drawing a line between good and bad, between +clean and unclean, but I do not believe in drawing a color line +which is as cruel as the lash of slavery. + +I am willing to be on an equality in all hotels, in all cars, in +all theatres, with colored people. I make no distinction of race. +Those make the distinction who cannot afford not to. If nature +has made no distinction between me and some others, I do not ask +the aid of the Legislature. I am willing to associate with all +good, clean persons, irrespective of complexion. + +This decision virtually gives away one of the great principles for +which the war was fought. It carries the doctrine of "State Rights" +to the Democratic extreme, and renders necessary either another +amendment or a new court. + +I agree with Justice Harlan. He has taken a noble and patriotic +stand. Kentucky rebukes Massachusetts! I am waiting with some +impatience--impatient because I anticipate a pleasure--for his +dissenting opinion. Only a little while ago Justice Harlan took +a very noble stand on the Virginia Coupon cases, in which was +involved the right of a State to repudiate its debts. Now he has +taken a stand in favor of the civil rights of the colored man; and +in both instances I think he is right. + +This decision may, after all, help the Republican party. A decision +of the Supreme Court aroused the indignation of the entire North, +and I hope the present decision will have a like effect. The good +people of this country will not be satisfied until every man beneath +the flag, without the slightest respect to his complexion, stands +on a perfect equality before the law with every other. Any government +that makes a distinction on account of color, is a disgrace to the +age in which we live. The idea that a man like Frederick Douglass +can be denied entrance to a car, that the doors of a hotel can be +shut in his face; that he may be prevented from entering a theatre; +the idea that there shall be some ignominious corner into which +such a man can be thrown simply by a decision of the Supreme Court! +This idea is simply absurd. + +_Question_. What remains to be done now, and who is going to do it? + +_Answer_. For a good while people have been saying that the +Republican party has outlived its usefulness; that there is very +little difference now between the parties; that there is hardly +enough left to talk about. This decision opens the whole question. +This decision says to the Republican party, "Your mission is not +yet ended. This is not a free country. Our flag does not protect +the rights of a human being." This decision is the tap of a drum. +The old veterans will fall into line. This decision gives the +issue for the next campaign, and it may be that the Supreme Court +has builded wiser than it knew. This is a greater question than +the tariff or free trade. It is a question of freedom, of human +rights, of the sacredness of humanity. + +The real Americans, the real believers in Liberty, will give three +cheers for Judge Harlan. + +One word more. The Government is bound to protect its citizens, +not only when they are away from home, but when they are under the +flag. In time of war the Government has a right to draft any +citizen; to put that citizen in the line of battle, and compel him +to fight for the nation. If the Government when imperiled has the +right to compel a citizen, whether white or black, to defend with +his blood the flag, that citizen, when imperiled, has the right to +demand protection from the Nation. The Nation cannot then say, +"You must appeal to your State." If the citizen must appeal to +the State for redress, then the citizen should defend the State +and not the General Government, and the doctrine of State Rights +then becomes complete. + +--_The National Republican_, Washington, D. C., October 17, 1883. + + +JUSTICE HARLAN AND THE CIVIL RIGHTS BILL. + +_Question_. What do you think of Justice Harlan's dissenting +opinion in the Civil Rights case? + +_Answer_. I have just read it and think it admirable in every +respect. It is unanswerable. He has given to words their natural +meaning. He has recognized the intention of the framers of the +recent amendments. There is nothing in this opinion that is +strained, insincere, or artificial. It is frank and manly. It is +solid masonry, without crack or flaw. He does not resort to legal +paint or putty, or to verbal varnish or veneer. He states the +position of his brethren of the bench with perfect fairness, and +overturns it with perfect ease. He has drawn an instructive parallel +between the decisions of the olden time, upholding the power of +Congress to deal with individuals in the interests of slavery, and +the power conferred on Congress by the recent amendments. He has +shown by the old decisions, that when a duty is enjoined upon +Congress, ability to perform it is given; that when a certain end +is required, all necessary means are granted. He also shows that +the Fugitive Slave Acts of 1793 and of 1850, rested entirely upon +the implied power of Congress to enforce a master's rights; and +that power was once implied in favor of slavery against human +rights, and implied from language shadowy, feeble and uncertain +when compared with the language of the recent amendments. He has +shown, too, that Congress exercised the utmost ingenuity in devising +laws to enforce the master's claim. Implication was held ample to +deprive a human being of his liberty, but to secure freedom, the +doctrine of implication is abandoned. As a foundation for wrong, +implication was their rock. As a foundation for right, it is now +sand. Implied power then was sufficient to enslave, while power +expressly given is now impotent to protect. + +_Question_. What do you think of the use he has made of the Dred +Scott decision? + +_Answer_. Well, I think he has shown conclusively that the present +decision, under the present circumstances, is far worse than the +Dred Scott decision was under the then circumstances. The Dred +Scott decision was a libel upon the best men of the Revolutionary +period. That decision asserted broadly that our forefathers regarded +the negroes as having no rights which white men were bound to +respect; that the negroes were merely merchandise, and that that +opinion was fixed and universal in the civilized portion of the +white race, and that no one thought of disputing it. Yet Franklin +contended that slavery might be abolished under the preamble of +the Constitution. Thomas Jefferson said that if the slave should +rise to cut the throat of his master, God had no attribute that +would side against the slave. Thomas Paine attacked the institution +with all the intensity and passion of his nature. John Adams +regarded the institution with horror. So did every civilized man, +South and North. + +Justice Harlan shows conclusively that the Thirteenth Amendment +was adopted in the light of the Dred Scott decision; that it +overturned and destroyed, not simply the decision, but the reasoning +upon which it was based; that it proceeded upon the ground that +the colored people had rights that white men were bound to respect, +not only, but that the Nation was bound to protect. He takes the +ground that the amendment was suggested by the condition of that +race, which had been declared by the Supreme Court of the United +States to have no rights which white men were bound to respect; that +it was made to protect people whose rights had been invaded, and +whose strong arms had assisted in the overthrow of the Rebellion; +that it was made for the purpose of putting these men upon a legal +authority with white citizens. + +Justice Harland also shows that while legislation of Congress to +enforce a master's right was upheld by implication, the rights of +the negro do not depend upon that doctrine; that the Thirteenth +Amendment does not rest upon implication, or upon inference; that +by its terms it places the power in Congress beyond the possibility +of a doubt--conferring the power to enforce the amendment by +appropriate legislation in express terms; and he also shows that +the Supreme Court has admitted that legislation for that purpose +may be direct and primary. Had not the power been given in express +terms, Justice Harlan contends that the sweeping declaration that +neither slavery nor involuntary servitude shall exist would by +implication confer the power. He also shows conclusively that, +under the Thirteenth Amendment, Congress has the right by appropriate +legislation to protect the colored people against the deprivation +of any right on account of their race, and that Congress is not +necessarily restricted, under the Thirteenth Amendment, to legislation +against slavery as an institution, but that power may be exerted +to the extent of protecting the race from discrimination in respect +to such rights as belong to freemen, where such discrimination is +based on race or color. + +If Justice Harlan is wrong the amendments are left without force +and Congress without power. No purpose can be assigned for their +adoption. No object can be guessed that was to be accomplished. +They become words, so arranged that they sound like sense, but when +examined fall meaninglessly apart. Under the decision of the +Supreme Court they are Quaker cannon--cloud forts--"property" for +political stage scenery--coats of mail made of bronzed paper-- +shields of gilded pasteboard--swords of lath. + +_Question_. Do you wish to say anything as to the reasoning of +Justice Harlan on the rights of colored people on railways, in inns +and theatres? + +_Answer_. Yes, I do. That part of the opinion is especially +strong. He shows conclusively that a common carrier is in the +exercise of a sort of public office and has public duties to perform, +and that he cannot exonerate himself from the performance of these +duties without the consent of the parties concerned. He also shows +that railroads are public highways, and that the railway company +is the agent of the State, and that a railway, although built by +private capital, is just as public in its nature as though constructed +by the State itself. He shows that the railway is devoted to public +use, and subject to be controlled by the State for the public +benefit, and that for these reasons the colored man has the same +rights upon the railway that he has upon the public highway. + +Justice Harlan shows that the same law is applicable to inns that +is applicable to railways; that an inn-keeper is bound to take all +travelers if he can accommodate them; that he is not to select his +guests; that he has not right to say to one "you may come in," and +to another "you shall not;" that every one who conducts himself in +a proper manner has a right to be received. He shows conclusively +that an inn-keeper is a sort of public servant; that he is in the +exercise of a _quasi_ public employment, that he is given special +privileges, and charged with duties of a public character. + +As to theatres, I think his argument most happy. It is this: +Theatres are licensed by law. The authority to maintain them comes +from the public. The colored race being a part of the public, +representing the power granting the license, why should the colored +people license a manager to open his doors to the white man and +shut them in the face of the black man? Why should they be compelled +to license that which they are not permitted to enjoy? Justice +Harlan shows that Congress has the power to prevent discrimination +on account of race or color on railways, at inns, and in places of +public amusements, and has this power under the Thirteenth +Amendment. + +In discussing the Fourteenth Amendment, Justice Harlan points out +that a prohibition upon a State is not a power in Congress or the +National Government, but is simply a denial of power to the State; +that such was the Constitution before the Fourteenth Amendment. +He shows, however, that the Fourteenth Amendment presents the first +instance in our history of the investiture of Congress with +affirmative power by legislation to enforce an express prohibition +upon the States. This is an important point. It is stated with +great clearness, and defended with great force. He shows that the +first clause of the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment is +of a distinctly affirmative character, and that Congress would have +had the power to legislate directly as to that section simply by +implication, but that as to that as well as the express prohibitions +upon the States, express power to legislate was given. + +There is one other point made by Justice Harlan which transfixes +as with a spear the decision of the Court. It is this: As soon +as the Thirteenth and Fourteenth Amendments were adopted the colored +citizen was entitled to the protection of section two, article +four, namely: "The citizens of each State shall be entitled to +all the privileges and immunities of citizens of the several States." +Now, suppose a colored citizen of Mississippi moves to Tennessee. +Then, under the section last quoted, he would immediately become +invested with all the privileges and immunities of a white citizen +of Tennessee. Although denied these privileges and immunities in +the State from which he emigrated, in the State to which he immigrates +he could not be discriminated against on account of his color under +the second section of the fourth article. Now, is it possible that +he gets additional rights by immigration? Is it possible that the +General Government is under a greater obligation to protect him in +a State of which he is not a citizen than in a State of which he +is a citizen? Must he leave home for protection, and after he has +lived long enough in the State to which he immigrates to become a +citizen there, must he again move in order to protect his rights? +Must one adopt the doctrine of peripatetic protection--the doctrine +that the Constitution is good only _in transitu_, and that when +the citizen stops, the Constitution goes on and leaves him without +protection? + +Justice Harlan shows that Congress had the right to legislate +directly while that power was only implied, but that the moment +this power was conferred in express terms, then according to the +Supreme Court, it was lost. + +There is another splendid definition given by Justice Harlan--a +line drawn as broad as the Mississippi. It is the distinction +between the rights conferred by a State and rights conferred by +the Nation. Admitting that many rights conferred by a State cannot +be enforced directly by Congress, Justice Harlan shows that rights +granted by the Nation to an individual may be protected by direct +legislation. This is a distinction that should not be forgotten, +and it is a definition clear and perfect. + +Justice Harlan has shown that the Supreme Court failed to take into +consideration the intention of the framers of the amendment; failed +to see that the powers of Congress were given by express terms and +did not rest upon implication; failed to see that the Thirteenth +Amendment was broad enough to cover the Civil Rights Act; failed +to see that under the three amendments rights and privileges were +conferred by the Nation on citizens of the several States, and that +these rights are under the perpetual protection of the General +Government, and that for their enforcement Congress has the right +to legislate directly; failed to see that all implications are now +in favor of liberty instead of slavery; failed to comprehend that +we have a new nation with a new foundation, with different objects, +ends, and aims, for the attainment of which we use different means +and have been clothed with greater powers; failed to see that the +Republic changed front; failed to appreciate the real reasons for +the adoption of the amendments, and failed to understand that the +Civil Rights Act was passed in order that a citizen of the United +States might appeal from local prejudice to national justice. + +Justice Harlan shows that it was the object to accomplish for the +black man what had been accomplished for the white man--that is, +to protect all their rights as free men and citizens; and that the +one underlying purpose of the amendments and of the congressional +legislation has been to clothe the black race with all the rights +of citizenship, and to compel a recognition of their rights by +citizens and States--that the object was to do away with class +tyranny, the meanest and basest form of oppression. + +If Justice Harlan was wrong in his position, then, it may truthfully +be said of the three amendments that: + + "The law hath bubbles as the water has, + And these are of them." + +The decision of the Supreme Court denies the protection of the +Nation to the citizens of the Nation. That decision has already +borne fruit--the massacre at Danville. The protection of the Nation +having been withdrawn, the colored man was left to the mercy of +local prejudices and hatreds. He is without appeal, without redress. +The Supreme Court tells him that he must depend upon his enemies +for justice. + +_Question_. You seem to agree with all that Justice Harlan has +said, and to have the greatest admiration for his opinion? + +_Answer_. Yes, a man rises from reading this dissenting opinion +refreshed, invigorated, and strengthened. It is a mental and moral +tonic. It was produced after a clear head had held conference with +a good heart. It will furnish a perfectly clear plank, without +knot or wind-shake, for the next Republican platform. It is written +in good plain English, and ornamented with good sound sense. The +average man can and will understand its every word. There is no +subterfuge in it. + +Each position is taken in the open field. There is no resort to +quibbles or technicalities--no hiding. Nothing is secreted in the +sleeve--no searching for blind paths--no stooping and looking for +ancient tracks, grass-grown and dim. Each argument travels the +highway--"the big road." It is logical. The facts and conclusions +agree, and fall naturally into line of battle. It is sincere and +candid--unpretentious and unanswerable. It is a grand defence of +human rights--a brave and manly plea for universal justice. It +leaves the decision of the Supreme Court without argument, without +reason, and without excuse. Such an exhibition of independence, +courage and ability has won for Justice Harlan the respect and +admiration of "both sides," and places him in the front rank of +constitutional lawyers. + +--_The Inter-Ocean_, Chicago, Illinois, November 29, 1883. + + +POLITICS AND THEOLOGY. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of Brewster's administration? + +_Answer_. I hardly think I ought to say much about the administration +of Mr. Brewster. Of course many things have been done that I +thought, and still think, extremely bad; but whether Mr. Brewster +was responsible for the things done, or not, I do not pretend to +say. When he was appointed to his present position, there was +great excitement in the country about the Star Route cases, and +Mr. Brewster was expected to prosecute everybody and everything to +the extent of the law; in fact, I believe he was appointed by reason +of having made such a promise. At that time there were hundreds +of people interested in exaggerating all the facts connected with +the Star Route cases, and when there were no facts to be exaggerated, +they made some, and exaggerated them afterward. It may be that +the Attorney-General was misled, and he really supposed that all +he heard was true. My objection to the administration of the +Department of Justice is, that a resort was had to spies and +detectives. The battle was not fought in the open field. Influences +were brought to bear. Nearly all departments of the Government +were enlisted. Everything was done to create a public opinion in +favor of the prosecution. Everything was done that the cases might +be decided on prejudice instead of upon facts. + +Everything was done to demoralize, frighten and overawe judges, +witnesses and jurors. I do not pretend to say who was responsible, +possibly I am not an impartial judge. I was deeply interested at +the time, and felt all of these things, rather than reasoned about +them. + +Possibly I cannot give a perfectly unbiased opinion. Personally, +I have no feeling now upon the subject. + +The Department of Justice, in spite of its methods, did not succeed. +That was enough for me. I think, however, when the country knows +the facts, that the people will not approve of what was done. I +do not believe in trying cases in the newspapers before they are +submitted to jurors. That is a little too early. Neither do I +believe in trying them in the newspapers after the verdicts have +been rendered. That is a little too late. + +_Question_. What are Mr. Blaine's chances for the presidency? + +_Answer_. My understanding is that Mr. Blaine is not a candidate +for the nomination; that he does not wish his name to be used in +that connection. He ought to have been nominated in 1876, and if +he were a candidate, he would probably have the largest following; +but my understanding is, that he does not, in any event, wish to +be a candidate. He is a man perfectly familiar with the politics +of this country, knows its history by heart, and is in every respect +probably as well qualified to act as its Chief Magistrate as any +man in the nation. He is a man of ideas, of action, and has positive +qualities. He would not wait for something to turn up, and things +would not have to wait long for him to turn them up. + +_Question_. Who do you think will be nominated at Chicago? + +_Answer_. Of course I have not the slightest idea who will be +nominated. I may have an opinion as to who ought to be nominated, +and yet I may be greatly mistaken in that opinion. There are +hundreds of men in the Republican party, any one of whom, if elected, +would make a good, substantial President, and there are many +thousands of men about whom I know nothing, any one of whom would +in all probability make a good President. We do not want any man +to govern this country. This country governs itself. We want a +President who will honestly and faithfully execute the laws, who +will appoint postmasters and do the requisite amount of handshaking +on public occasions, and we have thousands of men who can discharge +the duties of that position. Washington is probably the worst +place to find out anything definite upon the subject of presidential +booms. I have thought for a long time that one of the most valuable +men in the country was General Sherman. Everybody knows who and +what he is. He has one great advantage--he is a frank and outspoken +man. He has opinions and he never hesitates about letting them be +known. There is considerable talk about Judge Harlan. His dissenting +opinion in the Civil Rights case has made every colored man his +friend, and I think it will take considerable public patronage to +prevent a good many delegates from the Southern States voting for +him. + +_Question_. What are your present views on theology? + +_Answer_. Well, I think my views have not undergone any change +that I know of. I still insist that observation, reason and +experience are the things to be depended upon in this world. I +still deny the existence of the supernatural. I still insist that +nobody can be good for you, or bad for you; that you cannot be +punished for the crimes of others, nor rewarded for their virtues. +I still insist that the consequences of good actions are always +good, and those of bad actions always bad. I insist that nobody +can plant thistles and gather figs; neither can they plant figs +and gather thistles. I still deny that a finite being can commit +an infinite sin; but I continue to insist that a God who would +punish a man forever is an infinite tyrant. My views have undergone +no change, except that the evidence of that truth constantly +increases, and the dogmas of the church look, if possible, a little +absurder every day. Theology, you know, is not a science. It +stops at the grave; and faith is the end of theology. Ministers +have not even the advantage of the doctors; the doctors sometimes +can tell by a post-mortem examination whether they killed the man +or not; but by cutting a man open after he is dead, the wisest +theologians cannot tell what has become of his soul, and whether +it was injured or helped by a belief in the inspiration of the +Scriptures. Theology depends on assertion for evidence, and on +faith for disciples. + +--_The Tribune_, Denver, Colorado, January 17, 1886. + + +MORALITY AND IMMORTALITY. + +_Question_. I see that the clergy are still making all kinds of +charges against you and your doctrines. + +_Answer_. Yes. Some of the charges are true and some of them are +not. I suppose that they intend to get in the vicinity of veracity, +and are probably stating my belief as it is honestly misunderstood +by them. I admit that I have said and that I still think that +Christianity is a blunder. But the question arises, What is +Christianity? I do not mean, when I say that Christianity is a +blunder, that the morality taught by Christians is a mistake. +Morality is not distinctively Christian, any more than it is +Mohammedan. Morality is human, it belongs to no ism, and does not +depend for a foundation upon the supernatural, or upon any book, +or upon any creed. Morality is itself a foundation. When I say +that Christianity is a blunder, I mean all those things distinctively +Christian are blunders. It is a blunder to say that an infinite +being lived in Palestine, learned the carpenter's trade, raised +the dead, cured the blind, and cast out devils, and that this God +was finally assassinated by the Jews. This is absurd. All these +statements are blunders, if not worse. I do not believe that Christ +ever claimed that he was of supernatural origin, or that he wrought +miracles, or that he would rise from the dead. If he did, he was +mistaken--honestly mistaken, perhaps, but still mistaken. + +The morality inculcated by Mohammed is good. The immorality +inculcated by Mohammed is bad. If Mohammed was a prophet of God, +it does not make the morality he taught any better, neither does +it make the immorality any better or any worse. + +By this time the whole world ought to know that morality does not +need to go into partnership with miracles. Morality is based upon +the experience of mankind. It does not have to learn of inspired +writers, or of gods, or of divine persons. It is a lesson that +the whole human race has been learning and learning from experience. +He who upholds, or believes in, or teaches, the miraculous, commits +a blunder. + +Now, what is morality? Morality is the best thing to do under the +circumstances. Anything that tends to the happiness of mankind is +moral. Anything that tends to unhappiness is immoral. We apply +to the moral world rules and regulations as we do in the physical +world. The man who does justice, or tries to do so--who is honest +and kind and gives to others what he claims for himself, is a moral +man. All actions must be judged by their consequences. Where the +consequences are good, the actions are good. Where the consequences +are bad, the actions are bad; and all consequences are learned from +experience. After we have had a certain amount of experience, we +then reason from analogy. We apply our logic and say that a certain +course will bring destruction, another course will bring happiness. +There is nothing inspired about morality--nothing supernatural. +It is simply good, common sense, going hand in hand with kindness. + +Morality is capable of being demonstrated. You do not have to take +the word of anybody; you can observe and examine for yourself. +Larceny is the enemy of industry, and industry is good; therefore +larceny is immoral. The family is the unit of good government; +anything that tends to destroy the family is immoral. Honesty is +the mother of confidence; it united, combines and solidifies society. +Dishonesty is disintegration; it destroys confidence; it brings +social chaos; it is therefore immoral. + +I also admit that I regard the Mosaic account of the creation as +an absurdity--as a series of blunders. Probably Moses did the best +he could. He had never talked with Humboldt or Laplace. He knew +nothing of geology or astronomy. He had not the slightest suspicion +of Kepler's Three Laws. He never saw a copy of Newton's Principia. +Taking all these things into consideration, I think Moses did the +best he could. + +The religious people say now that "days" did not mean days. Of +these "six days" they make a kind of telescope, which you can push +in or draw out at pleasure. If the geologists find that more time +was necessary they will stretch them out. Should it turn out that +the world is not quite as old as some think, they will push them +up. The "six days" can now be made to suit any period of time. +Nothing can be more childish, frivolous or contradictory. + +Only a few years ago the Mosaic account was considered true, and +Moses was regarded as a scientific authority. Geology and astronomy +were measured by the Mosaic standard. The opposite is now true. +The church has changed; and instead of trying to prove that modern +astronomy and geology are false, because they do not agree with +Moses, it is now endeavoring to prove that the account by Moses is +true, because it agrees with modern astronomy and geology. In +other words, the standard has changed; the ancient is measured by +the modern, and where the literal statement in the Bible does not +agree with modern discoveries, they do not change the discoveries, +but give new meanings to the old account. We are not now endeavoring +to reconcile science with the Bible, but to reconcile the Bible +with science. + +Nothing shows the extent of modern doubt more than the eagerness +with which Christians search for some new testimony. Luther answered +Copernicus with a passage of Scripture, and he answered him to the +satisfaction of orthodox ignorance. + +The truth is that the Jews adopted the stories of Creation, the +Garden of Eden, Forbidden Fruit, and the Fall of Man. They were +told by older barbarians than they, and the Jews gave them to us. + +I never said that the Bible is all bad. I have always admitted +that there are many good and splendid things in the Jewish Scriptures, +and many bad things. What I insist is that we should have the +courage and the common sense to accept the good, and throw away +the bad. Evil is not good because found in good company, and truth +is still truth, even when surrounded by falsehood. + +_Question_. I see that you are frequently charged with disrespect +toward your parents--with lack of reverence for the opinions of +your father? + +_Answer_. I think my father and mother upon several religious +questions were mistaken. In fact, I have no doubt that they were; +but I never felt under the slightest obligation to defend my father's +mistakes. No one can defend what he thinks is a mistake, without +being dishonest. That is a poor way to show respect for parents. +Every Protestant clergyman asks men and women who had Catholic +parents to desert the church in which they were raised. They have +no hesitation in saying to these people that their fathers and +mothers were mistaken, and that they were deceived by priests and +popes. + +The probability is that we are all mistaken about almost everything; +but it is impossible for a man to be respectable enough to make a +mistake respectable. There is nothing remarkably holy in a blunder, +or praiseworthy in stubbing the toe of the mind against a mistake. +Is it possible that logic stands paralyzed in the presence of +paternal absurdity? Suppose a man has a bad father; is he bound +by the bad father's opinion, when he is satisfied that the opinion +is wrong? How good does a father have to be, in order to put his +son under obligation to defend his blunders? Suppose the father +thinks one way, and the mother the other; what are the children to +do? Suppose the father changes his opinion; what then? Suppose +the father thinks one way and the mother the other, and they both +die when the boy is young; and the boy is bound out; whose mistakes +is he then bound to follow? Our missionaries tell the barbarian +boy that his parents are mistaken, that they know nothing, and that +the wooden god is nothing but a senseless idol. They do not hesitate +to tell this boy that his mother believed lies, and hugged, it may +be to her dying heart, a miserable delusion. Why should a barbarian +boy cast reproach upon his parents? + +I believe it was Christ who commanded his disciples to leave father +and mother; not only to leave them, but to desert them; and not +only to desert father and mother, but to desert wives and children. +It is also told of Christ that he said that he came to set fathers +against children and children against fathers. Strange that a +follower of his should object to a man differing in opinion from +his parents! The truth is, logic knows nothing of consanguinity; +facts have no relatives but other facts; and these facts do not +depend upon the character of the person who states them, or upon +the position of the discoverer. And this leads me to another branch +of the same subject. + +The ministers are continually saying that certain great men--kings, +presidents, statesmen, millionaires--have believed in the inspiration +of the Bible. Only the other day, I read a sermon in which Carlyle +was quoted as having said that "the Bible is a noble book." That +all may be and yet the book not be inspired. But what is the simple +assertion of Thomas Carlyle worth? If the assertion is based upon +a reason, then it is worth simply the value of the reason, and the +reason is worth just as much without the assertion, but without +the reason the assertion is worthless. Thomas Carlyle thought, +and solemnly put the thought in print, that his father was a greater +man than Robert Burns. His opinion did Burns no harm, and his +father no good. Since reading his "Reminiscences," I have no great +opinion of his opinion. In some respects he was undoubtedly a +great man, in others a small one. + +No man should give the opinion of another as authority and in place +of fact and reason, unless he is willing to take all the opinions +of that man. An opinion is worth the warp and woof of fact and +logic in it and no more. A man cannot add to the truthfulness of +truth. In the ordinary business of life, we give certain weight +to the opinion of specialists--to the opinion of doctors, lawyers, +scientists, and historians. Within the domain of the natural, we +take the opinions of our fellow-men; but we do not feel that we +are absolutely bound by these opinions. We have the right to re- +examine them, and if we find they are wrong we feel at liberty to +say so. A doctor is supposed to have studied medicine; to have +examined and explored the questions entering into his profession; +but we know that doctors are often mistaken. We also know that +there are many schools of medicine; that these schools disagree +with one another, and that the doctors of each school disagree with +one another. We also know that many patients die, and so far as +we know, these patients have not come back to tell us whether the +doctors killed them or not. The grave generally prevents a +demonstration. It is exactly the same with the clergy. They have +many schools of theology, all despising each other. Probably no +two members of the same church exactly agree. They cannot demonstrate +their propositions, because between the premise and the logical +conclusion or demonstration, stands the tomb. A gravestone marks +the end of theology. In some cases, the physician can, by a post- +mortem examination, find what killed the patient, but there is no +theological post-mortem. It is impossible, by cutting a body open, +to find where the soul has gone; or whether baptism, or the lack +of it, had the slightest effect upon final destiny. The church, +knowing that there are no facts beyond the coffin, relies upon +opinions, assertions and theories. For this reason it is always +asking alms of distinguished people. Some President wishes to be +re-elected, and thereupon speaks about the Bible as "the corner- +stone of American Liberty." This sentence is a mouth large enough +to swallow any church, and from that time forward the religious +people will be citing that remark of the politician to substantiate +the inspiration of the Scriptures. + +The man who accepts opinions because they have been entertained by +distinguished people, is a mental snob. When we blindly follow +authority we are serfs. When our reason is convinced we are freemen. +It is rare to find a fully rounded and complete man. A man may be +a great doctor and a poor mechanic, a successful politician and a +poor metaphysician, a poor painter and a good poet. + +The rarest thing in the world is a logician--that is to say, a man +who knows the value of a fact. It is hard to find mental proportion. +Theories may be established by names, but facts cannot be demonstrated +in that way. Very small people are sometimes right, and very great +people are sometimes wrong. Ministers are sometimes right. + +In all the philosophies of the world there are undoubtedly +contradictions and absurdities. The mind of man is imperfect and +perfect results are impossible. A mirror, in order to reflect a +perfect picture, a perfect copy, must itself be perfect. The mind +is a little piece of intellectual glass the surface of which is +not true, not perfect. In consequence of this, every image is more +or less distorted. The less we know, the more we imagine that we +can know; but the more we know, the smaller seems the sum of +knowledge. The less we know, the more we expect, the more we hope +for, and the more seems within the range of probability. The less +we have, the more we want. There never was a banquet magnificent +enough to gratify the imagination of a beggar. The moment people +begin to reason about what they call the supernatural, they seem +to lose their minds. People seem to have lost their reason in +religious matters, very much as the dodo is said to have lost its +wings; they have been restricted to a little inspired island, and +by disuse their reason has been lost. + +In the Jewish Scriptures you will find simply the literature of +the Jews. You will find there the tears and anguish of captivity, +patriotic fervor, national aspiration, proverbs for the conduct of +daily life, laws, regulations, customs, legends, philosophy and +folly. These books, of course, were not written by one man, but +by many authors. They do not agree, having been written in different +centuries, under different circumstances. I see that Mr. Beecher +has at last concluded that the Old Testament does not teach the +doctrine of immortality. He admits that from Mount Sinai came no +hope for the dead. It is very curious that we find in the Old +Testament no funeral service. No one stands by the dead and predicts +another life. In the Old Testament there is no promise of another +world. I have sometimes thought that while the Jews were slaves +in Egypt, the doctrine of immortality became hateful. They built +so many tombs; they carried so many burdens to commemorate the +dead; the saw a nation waste its wealth to adorn its graves, and +leave the living naked to embalm the dead, that they concluded the +doctrine was a curse and never should be taught. + +_Question_. If the Jews did not believe in immortality, how do +you account for the allusions made to witches and wizards and things +of that nature? + +_Answer_. When Saul visited the Witch of Endor, and she, by some +magic spell, called up Samuel, the prophet said: "Why hast thou +disquieted me, to call me up?" He did not say: Why have you called +me from another world? The idea expressed is: I was asleep, why +did you disturb that repose which should be eternal? The ancient +Jews believed in witches and wizards and familiar spirits; but they +did not seem to think that these spirits had once been men and +women. They spoke to them as belonging to another world, a world +to which man would never find his way. At that time it was supposed +that Jehovah and his angels lived in the sky, but that region was +not spoken of as the destined home of man. Jacob saw angels going +up and down the ladder, but not the spirits of those he had known. +There are two cases where it seems that men were good enough to be +adopted into the family of heaven. Enoch was translated, and Elijah +was taken up in a chariot of fire. As it is exceedingly cold at +the height of a few miles, it is easy to see why the chariot was +of fire, and the same fact explains another circumstance--the +dropping of the mantle. The Jews probably believed in the existence +of other beings--that is to say, in angels and gods and evil spirits +--and that they lived in other worlds--but there is no passage +showing that they believed in what we call the immortality of the +soul. + +_Question_. Do you believe, or disbelieve, in the immortality of +the soul? + +_Answer_. I neither assert nor deny; I simply admit that I do not +know. Upon that subject I am absolutely without evidence. This +is the only world that I was ever in. There may be spirits, but +I have never met them, and do not know that I would recognize a +spirit. I can form no conception of what is called spiritual life. +It may be that I am deficient in imagination, and that ministers +have no difficulty in conceiving of angels and disembodied souls. +I have not the slightest idea how a soul looks, what shape it is, +how it goes from one place to another, whether it walks or flies. +I cannot conceive of the immaterial having form; neither can I +conceive of anything existing without form, and yet the fact that +I cannot conceive of a thing does not prove that the thing does +not exist, but it does prove that I know nothing about it, and that +being so, I ought to admit my ignorance. I am satisfied of a good +many things that I do not know. I am satisfied that there is no +place of eternal torment. I am satisfied that that doctrine has +done more harm than all the religious ideas, other than that, have +done good. I do not want to take any hope from any human heart. +I have no objection to people believing in any good thing--no +objection to their expecting a crown of infinite joy for every +human being. Many people imagine that immortality must be an +infinite good; but, after all, there is something terrible in the +idea of endless life. Think of a river that never reaches the sea; +of a bird that never folds its wings; of a journey that never ends. +Most people find great pleasure in thinking about and in believing +in another world. There the prisoner expects to be free; the slave +to find liberty; the poor man expects wealth; the rich man happiness; +the peasant dreams of power, and the king of contentment. They +expect to find there what they lack here. I do not wish to destroy +these dreams. I am endeavoring to put out the everlasting fires. +A good, cool grave is infinitely better than the fiery furnace of +Jehovah's wrath. Eternal sleep is better than eternal pain. For +my part I would rather be annihilated than to be an angel, with +all the privileges of heaven, and yet have within my breast a heart +that could be happy while those who had loved me in this world were +in perdition. + +I most sincerely hope that the future life will fulfill all splendid +dreams; but in the religion of the present day there is no joy. +Nothing is so devoid of comfort, when bending above our dead, as +the assertions of theology unsupported by a single fact. The +promises are so far away, and the dead are so near. From words +spoken eighteen centuries ago, the echoes are so weak, and the +sounds of the clods on the coffin are so loud. Above the grave +what can the honest minister say? If the dead were not a Christian, +what then? What comfort can the orthodox clergyman give to the +widow of an honest unbeliever? If Christianity is true, the other +world will be worse than this. There the many will be miserable, +only the few happy; there the miserable cannot better their condition; +the future has no star of hope, and in the east of eternity there +can never be a dawn. + +_Question_. If you take away the idea of eternal punishment, how +do you propose to restrain men; in what way will you influence +conduct for good? + +_Answer_. Well, the trouble with religion is that it postpones +punishment and reward to another world. Wrong is wrong, because +it breeds unhappiness. Right is right, because it tends to the +happiness of man. These facts are the basis of what I call the +religion of this world. When a man does wrong, the consequences +follow, and between the cause and effect, a Redeemer cannot step. +Forgiveness cannot form a breastwork between act and consequence. + +There should be a religion of the body--a religion that will prevent +deformity, that will refuse to multiply insanity, that will not +propagate disease--a religion that is judged by its consequences in +this world. Orthodox Christianity has taught, and still teaches, +that in this world the difference between the good and the bad is +that the bad enjoy themselves, while the good carry the cross of +virtue with bleeding brows bound and pierced with the thorns of +honesty and kindness. All this, in my judgment, is immoral. The +man who does wrong carries a cross. There is no world, no star, +in which the result of wrong is real happiness. There is no world, +no star, in which the result of doing right is unhappiness. Virtue +and vice must be the same everywhere. + +Vice must be vice everywhere, because its consequences are evil; +and virtue must be virtue everywhere, because its consequences are +good. There can be no such thing as forgiveness. These facts are +the only restraining influences possible--the innocent man cannot +suffer for the guilty and satisfy the law. + +_Question_. How do you answer the argument, or the fact, that the +church is constantly increasing, and that there are now four hundred +millions of Christians? + +_Answer_. That is what I call the argument of numbers. If that +argument is good now, it was always good. If Christians were at +any time in the minority, then, according to this argument, +Christianity was wrong. Every religion that has succeeded has +appealed to the argument of numbers. There was a time when Buddhism +was in a majority. Buddha not only had, but has more followers +then Christ. Success is not a demonstration. Mohammed was a +success, and a success from the commencement. Upon a thousand +fields he was victor. Of the scattered tribes of the desert, he +made a nation, and this nation took the fairest part of Europe from +the followers of the cross. In the history of the world, the +success of Mohammed is unparalleled, but this success does not +establish that he was the prophet of God. + +Now, it is claimed that there are some four hundred millions of +Christians. To make that total I am counted as a Christian; I am +one of the fifty or sixty millions of Christians in the United +States--excluding Indians, not taxed. By this census report, we +are all going to heaven--we are all orthodox. At the last great +day we can refer with confidence to the ponderous volumes containing +the statistics of the United States. As a matter of fact, how many +Christians are there in the United States--how many believers in +the inspiration of the Scriptures--how many real followers of +Christ? I will not pretend to give the number, but I will venture +to say that there are not fifty millions. How many in England? +Where are the four hundred millions found? To make this immense +number, they have counted all the Heretics, all the Catholics, all +the Jews, Spiritualists, Universalists and Unitarians, all the +babes, all the idiotic and insane, all the Infidels, all the +scientists, all the unbelievers. As a matter of fact, they have +no right to count any except the orthodox members of the orthodox +churches. There may be more "members" now than formerly, and this +increase of members is due to a decrease of religion. Thousands +of members are only nominal Christians, wearing the old uniform +simply because they do not wish to be charged with desertion. The +church, too, is a kind of social institution, a club with a creed +instead of by-laws, and the creed is never defended unless attacked +by an outsider. No objection is made to the minister because he +is liberal, if he says nothing about it in his pulpit. A man like +Mr. Beecher draws a congregation, not because he is a Christian, +but because he is a genius; not because he is orthodox, but because +he has something to say. He is an intellectual athlete. He is +full of pathos and poetry. He has more description than divinity; +more charity than creed, and altogether more common sense than +theology. For these reasons thousands of people love to hear him. +On the other hand, there are many people who have a morbid desire +for the abnormal--for intellectual deformities--for thoughts that +have two heads. This accounts for the success of some of Mr. +Beecher's rivals. + +Christians claim that success is a test of truth. Has any church +succeeded as well as the Catholic? Was the tragedy of the Garden +of Eden a success? Who succeeded there? The last best thought is +not a success, if you mean that only that is a success which has +succeeded, and if you mean by succeeding, that it has won the assent +of the majority. Besides there is no time fixed for the test. Is +that true which succeeds to-day, or next year, or in the next +century? Once the Copernican system was not a success. There is +no time fixed. The result is that we have to wait. A thing to +exist at all has to be, to a certain extent, a success. A thing +cannot even die without having been a success. It certainly +succeeded enough to have life. Presbyterians should remember, +while arguing the majority argument, and the success argument, that +there are far more Catholics than Protestants, and that the Catholics +can give a longer list of distinguished names. + +My answer to all this, however, is that the history of the world +shows that ignorance has always been in the majority. There is +one right road; numberless paths that are wrong. Truth is one; +error is many. When a great truth has been discovered, one man +has pitted himself against the world. A few think; the many believe. +The few lead; the many follow. The light of the new day, as it +looks over the window sill of the east, falls at first on only one +forehead. + +There is another thing. A great many people pass for Christians +who are not. Only a little while ago a couple of ladies were +returning from church in a carriage. They had listened to a good +orthodox sermon. One said to the other: "I am going to tell you +something--I am going to shock you--I do not believe in the Bible." +And the other replied: "Neither do I." + +--_The News_, Detroit, Michigan, January 6, 1884. + + +POLITICS, MORMONISM AND MR. BEECHER + +_Question_. What will be the main issues in the next presidential +campaign? + +_Answer_. I think that the principal issues will be civil rights +and protection for American industries. The Democratic party is +not a unit on the tariff question--neither is the Republican; but +I think that a majority of the Democrats are in favor of free trade +and a majority of Republicans in favor of a protective tariff. +The Democratic Congressmen will talk just enough about free trade +to frighten the manufacturing interests of the country, and probably +not quite enough to satisfy the free traders. The result will be +that the Democrats will talk about reforming the tariff, but will +do nothing but talk. I think the tariff ought to be reformed in +many particulars; but as long as we need to raise a great revenue +my idea is that it ought to be so arranged as to protect to the +utmost, without producing monopoly in American manufacturers. I +am in favor of protection because it multiplies industries; and I +am in favor of a great number of industries because they develop +the brain, because they give employment to all and allow us to +utilize all the muscle and all the sense we have. If we were all +farmers we would grow stupid. If we all worked at one kind of +mechanic art we would grow dull. But with a variety of industries, +with a constant premium upon ingenuity, with the promise of wealth +as the reward of success in any direction, the people become +intelligent, and while we are protecting our industries we develop +our brains. So I am in favor of the protection of civil rights by +the Federal Government, and that, in my judgment, will be one of +the great issues in the next campaign. + +_Question_. I see that you say that one of the great issues in +the coming campaign will be civil rights; what do you mean by that? + +_Answer_. Well, I mean this. The Supreme Court has recently +decided that a colored man whose rights are trampled upon, in a +State, cannot appeal to the Federal Government for protection. +The decision amounts to this: That Congress has no right until a +State has acted, and has acted contrary to the Constitution. Now, +if a State refuses to do anything upon the subject, what is the +citizen to do? My opinion is that the Government is bound to +protect its citizens, and as a consideration for this protection, +the citizen is bound to stand by the Government. When the nation +calls for troops, the citizen of each State is bound to respond, +no matter what his State may think. This doctrine must be maintained, +or the United States ceases to be a nation. If a man looks to his +State for protection, then he must go with his State. My doctrine +is, that there should be patriotism upon the one hand, and protection +upon the other. If a State endeavors to secede from the Union, a +citizen of that State should be in a position to defy the State +and appeal to the Nation for protection. The doctrine now is, that +the General Government turns the citizen over to the State for +protection, and if the State does not protect him, that is his +misfortune; and the consequence of this doctrine will be to build +up the old heresy of State Sovereignty--a doctrine that was never +appealed to except in the interest of thieving or robbery. That +doctrine was first appealed to when the Constitution was formed, +because they were afraid the National Government would interfere +with the slave trade. It was next appealed to, to uphold the +Fugitive Slave Law. It was next appealed to, to give the territories +of the United States to slavery. Then it was appealed to, to +support rebellion, and now out of this doctrine they attempt to +build a breastwork, behind which they can trample upon the rights +of free colored men. + +I believe in the sovereignty of the Nation. A nation that cannot +protect its citizens ought to stop playing nation. In the old +times the Supreme Court found no difficulty in supporting slavery +by "inference," by "intendment," but now that liberty has become +national, the Court is driven to less than a literal interpretation. +If the Constitution does not support liberty, it is of no use. To +maintain liberty is the only legitimate object of human government. +I hope the time will come when the judges of the Supreme Court will +be elected, say for a period of ten years. I do not believe in +the legal monk system. I believe in judges still maintaining an +interest in human affairs. + +_Question_. What do you think of the Mormon question? + +_Answer_. I do not believe in the bayonet plan. Mormonism must +be done away with by the thousand influences of civilization, by +education, by the elevation of the people. Of course, a gentleman +would rather have one noble woman than a hundred females. I hate +the system of polygamy. Nothing is more infamous. I admit that +the Old Testament upholds it. I admit that the patriarchs were +mostly polygamists. I admit that Solomon was mistaken on that +subject. But notwithstanding the fact that polygamy is upheld by +the Jewish Scriptures, I believe it to be a great wrong. At the +same time if you undertake to get the idea out of the Mormons by +force you will not succeed. I think a good way to do away with +that institution would be for all the churches to unite, bear the +expense, and send missionaries to Utah; let these ministers call +the people together and read to them the lives of David, Solomon, +Abraham and other patriarchs. Let all the missionaries be called +home from foreign fields and teach these people that they should +not imitate the only men with whom God ever condescended to hold +intercourse. Let these frightful examples be held up to these +people, and if it is done earnestly, it seems to me that the result +would be good. + +Polygamy exists. All laws upon the subject should take that fact +into consideration, and punishment should be provided for offences +thereafter committed. The children of Mormons should be legitimized. +In other words, in attempting to settle this question, we should +accomplish all the good possible, with the least possible harm. + +I agree mostly with Mr. Beecher, and I utterly disagree with the +Rev. Mr. Newman. Mr. Newman wants to kill and slay. He does not +rely upon Christianity, but upon brute force. He has lost his +confidence in example, and appeals to the bayonet. Mr. Newman had +a discussion with one of the Mormon elders, and was put to ignominious +flight; no wonder that he appeals to force. Having failed in +argument, he calls for artillery; having been worsted in the appeal +to Scripture, he asks for the sword. He says, failing to convert, +let us kill; and he takes this position in the name of the religion +of kindness and forgiveness. + +Strange that a minister now should throw away the Bible and yell +for a bayonet; that he should desert the Scriptures and call for +soldiers; that he should lose confidence in the power of the Spirit +and trust in a sword. I recommend that Mormonism be done away with +by distributing the Old Testament throughout Utah. + +_Question_. What do you think of the investigation of the Department +of Justice now going on? + +_Answer_. The result, in my judgment, will depend on its thoroughness. +If Mr. Springer succeeds in proving exactly what the Department of +Justice did, the methods pursued, if he finds out what their spies +and detectives and agents were instructed to do, then I think the +result will be as disastrous to the Department as beneficial to +the country. The people seem to have forgotten that a little while +after the first Star Route trial three of the agents of the Department +of Justice were indicted for endeavoring to bribe the jury. They +forget that Mr. Bowen, an agent of the Department of Justice, is +a fugitive, because he endeavored to bribe the foreman of the jury. +They seem to forget that the Department of Justice, in order to +cover its own tracks, had the foreman of the jury indicted because +one of its agents endeavored to bribe him. Probably this investigation +will nudge the ribs of the public enough to make people remember +these things. Personally, I have no feelings on the subject. It +was enough for me that we succeeded in thwarting its methods, in +spite of the detectives, spies, and informers. + +The Department is already beginning to dissolve. Brewster Cameron +has left it, and as a reward has been exiled to Arizona. Mr. +Brewster will probably be the next to pack his official valise. +A few men endeavored to win popularity by pursuing a few others, +and thus far they have been conspicuous failures. MacVeagh and +James are to-day enjoying the oblivion earned by misdirected energy, +and Mr. Brewster will soon keep them company. The history of the +world does not furnish an instance of more flagrant abuse of power. +There never was a trial as shamelessly conducted by a government. +But, as I said before, I have no feeling now except that of pity. + +_Question_. I see that Mr. Beecher is coming round to your views +on theology? + +_Answer_. I would not have the egotism to say that he was coming +round to my views, but evidently Mr. Beecher has been growing. +His head has been instructed by his heart; and if a man will allow +even the poor plant of pity to grow in his heart he will hold in +infinite execration all orthodox religion. The moment he will +allow himself to think that eternal consequences depend upon human +life; that the few short years we live in the world determine for +an eternity the question of infinite joy or infinite pain; the +moment he thinks of that he will see that it is an infinite absurdity. +For instance, a man is born in Arkansas and lives there to be +seventeen or eighteen years of age, is it possible that he can be +truthfully told at the day of judgment that he had a fair chance? +Just imagine a man being held eternally responsible for his conduct +in Delaware! Mr. Beecher is a man of great genius--full of poetry +and pathos. Every now and then he is driven back by the orthodox +members of his congregation toward the old religion, and for the +benefit of those weak disciples he will preach what is called "a +doctrinal sermon;" but before he gets through with it, seeing that +it is infinitely cruel, he utters a cry of horror, and protests +with all the strength of his nature against the cruelty of the +creed. I imagine that he has always thought that he was under +great obligation to Plymouth Church, but the truth is that the +church depends upon him; that church gets its character from Mr. +Beecher. He has done a vast deal to ameliorate the condition of +the average orthodox mind. He excites the envy of the mediocre +minister, and he excites the hatred of the really orthodox, but he +receives the approbation of good and generous men everywhere. For +my part, I have no quarrel with any religion that does not threaten +eternal punishment to very good people, and that does not promise +eternal reward to very bad people. If orthodox Christianity is +true, some of the best people I know are going to hell, and some +of the meanest I have ever known are either in heaven or on the +road. Of course, I admit that there are thousands and millions of +good Christians--honest and noble people, but in my judgment, Mr. +Beecher is the greatest man in the world who now occupies a pulpit. +* * * * * +Speaking of a man's living in Delaware, a young man, some time ago, +came up to me on the street, in an Eastern city and asked for money. +"What is your business," I asked. "I am a waiter by profession." +"Where do you come from?" "Delaware." "Well, what was the matter +--did you drink, or cheat your employer, or were you idle?" "No." +"What was the trouble?" "Well, the truth is, the State is so small +they don't need any waiters; they all reach for what they want." + +_Question_. Do you not think there are some dangerous tendencies +in Liberalism? + +_Answer_. I will first state this proposition: The credit system +in morals, as in business, breeds extravagance. The cash system +in morals, as well as in business, breeds economy. We will suppose +a community in which everybody is bound to sell on credit, and in +which every creditor can take the benefit of the bankrupt law every +Saturday night, and the constable pays the costs. In my judgment +that community would be extravagant as long as the merchants lasted. +We will take another community in which everybody has to pay cash, +and in my judgment that community will be a very economical one. +Now, then, let us apply this to morals. Christianity allows +everybody to sin on a credit, and allows a man who has lived, we +will say sixty-nine years, what Christians are pleased to call a +worldly life, an immoral life. They allow him on his death-bed, +between the last dose of medicine and the last breath, to be +converted, and that man who has done nothing except evil, becomes +an angel. Here is another man who has lived the same length of +time, doing all the good he possibly could do, but not meeting with +what they are pleased to call "a change of heart;" he goes to a +world of pain. Now, my doctrine is that everybody must reap exactly +what he sows, other things being equal. If he acts badly he will +not be very happy; if he acts well he will not be very sad. I +believe in the doctrine of consequences, and that every man must +stand the consequences of his own acts. It seems to me that that +fact will have a greater restraining influence than the idea that +you can, just before you leave this world, shift your burden on to +somebody else. I am a believer in the restraining influences of +liberty, because responsibility goes hand in hand with freedom. +I do not believe that the gallows is the last step between earth +and heaven. I do not believe in the conversion and salvation of +murderers while their innocent victims are in hell. The church +has taught so long that he who acts virtuously carries a cross, +and that only sinners enjoy themselves, that it may be that for a +little while after men leave the church they may go to extremes +until they demonstrate for themselves that the path of vice is the +path of thorns, and that only along the wayside of virtue grow the +flowers of joy. The church has depicted virtue as a sour, wrinkled +termagant; an old woman with nothing but skin and bones, and a +temper beyond description; and at the same time vice has been +painted in all the voluptuous outlines of a Greek statue. The +truth is exactly the other way. A thing is right because it pays; +a thing is wrong because it does not; and when I use the word +"pays," I mean in the highest and noblest sense. + +--_The Daily News_, Denver, Colorado, January 17, 1884. + + +FREE TRADE AND CHRISTIANITY. + +_Question_. Who will be the Republican nominee for President? + +_Answer_. The correct answer to this question would make so many +men unhappy that I have concluded not to give it. + +_Question_. Has not the Democracy injured itself irretrievably by +permitting the free trade element to rule it? + +_Answer_. I do not think that the Democratic party weakened itself +by electing Carlisle, Speaker. I think him an excellent man, an +exceedingly candid man, and one who will do what he believes ought +to be done. I have a very high opinion of Mr. Carlisle. I do not +suppose any party in this country is really for free trade. I find +that all writers upon the subject, no matter which side they are +on, are on that side with certain exceptions. Adam Smith was in +favor of free trade, with a few exceptions, and those exceptions +were in matters where he thought it was for England's interest not +to have free trade. The same may be said of all writers. So far +as I can see, the free traders have all the arguments and the +protectionists all the facts. The free trade theories are splendid, +but they will not work; the results are disastrous. We find by +actual experiment that it is better to protect home industries. +It was once said that protection created nothing but monopoly; the +argument was that way, but the facts are not. Take, for instance, +steel rails; when we bought them of England we paid one hundred +and twenty-five dollars a ton. I believe there was a tariff of +twenty-eight or twenty-nine dollars a ton, and yet in spite of all +the arguments going to show that protection would simply increase +prices in America, would simply enrich the capitalists and impoverish +the consumer, steel rails are now produced, I believe, right here +in Colorado for forty-two dollars a ton. + +After all, it is a question of labor; a question of prices that +shall be paid the laboring man; a question of what the laboring +man shall eat; whether he shall eat meat or soup made from the +bones. Very few people take into consideration the value of raw +material and the value of labor. Take, for instance, your ton of +steel rails worth forty-two dollars. The iron in the earth is not +worth twenty-five cents. The coal in the earth and the lime in +the ledge together are not worth twenty-five cents. Now, then, of +the forty-two dollars, forty-one and a half is labor. There is +not two dollars' worth of raw material in a locomotive worth fifteen +thousand dollars. By raw material I mean the material in the earth. +There is not in the works of a watch which will sell for fifteen +dollars, raw material of the value of one-half cent. All the rest +is labor. A ship, a man-of-war that costs one million dollars-- +the raw material in the earth is not worth, in my judgment, one +thousand dollars. All the rest is labor. If there is any way to +protect American labor, I am in favor of it. If the present tariff +does not do it, then I am in favor of changing to one that will. +If the Democratic party takes a stand for free trade or anything +like it, they will need protection; they will need protection at +the polls; that is to say, they will meet only with defeat and +disaster. + +_Question_. What should be done with the surplus revenue? + +_Answer_. My answer to that is, reduce internal revenue taxation +until the present surplus is exhausted, and then endeavor so to +arrange your tariff that you will not produce more than you need. +I think the easiest question to grapple with on this earth is a +surplus of money. + +I do not believe in distributing it among the States. I do not think +there could be a better certificate of the prosperity of our country +than the fact that we are troubled with a surplus revenue; that we +have the machinery for collecting taxes in such perfect order, so +ingeniously contrived, that it cannot be stopped; that it goes +right on collecting money, whether we want it or not; and the +wonderful thing about it is that nobody complains. If nothing else +can be done with the surplus revenue, probably we had better pay +some of our debts. I would suggest, as a last resort, to pay a +few honest claims. + +_Question_. Are you getting nearer to or farther away from God, +Christianity and the Bible? + +_Answer_. In the first place, as Mr. Locke so often remarked, we +will define our terms. If by the word "God" is meant a person, a +being, who existed before the creation of the universe, and who +controls all that is, except himself, I do not believe in such a +being; but if by the word God is meant all that is, that is to say, +the universe, including every atom and every star, then I am a +believer. I suppose the word that would nearest describe me is +"Pantheist." I cannot believe that a being existed from eternity, +and who finally created this universe after having wasted an eternity +in idleness; but upon this subject I know just as little as anybody +ever did or ever will, and, in my judgment, just as much. My +intellectual horizon is somewhat limited, and, to tell you the +truth, this is the only world that I was ever in. I am what might +be called a representative of a rural district, and, as a matter +of fact, I know very little about the district. I believe it was +Confucius who said: "How should I know anything about another +world when I know so little of this?" + +The greatest intellects of the world have endeavored to find words +to express their conception of God, of the first cause, or of the +science of being, but they have never succeeded. I find in the +old Confession of Faith, in the old Catechism, for instance, this +description: That God is a being without body, parts or passions. +I think it would trouble anybody to find a better definition of +nothing. That describes a vacuum, that is to say, that describes +the absence of everything. I find that theology is a subject that +only the most ignorant are certain about, and that the more a man +thinks, the less he knows. + +From the Bible God, I do not know that I am going farther and +farther away. I have been about as far as a man could get for many +years. I do not believe in the God of the Old Testament. + +Now, as to the next branch of your question, Christianity. + +The question arises, What is Christianity? I have no objection to +the morality taught as a part of Christianity, no objection to its +charity, its forgiveness, its kindness; no objection to its hope +for this world and another, not the slightest, but all these things +do not make Christianity. Mohammed taught certain doctrines that +are good, but the good in the teachings of Mohammed is not Mohammedism. +When I speak of Christianity I speak of that which is distinctly +Christian. For instance, the idea that the Infinite God was born +in Palestine, learned the carpenter's trade, disputed with the +parsons of his time, excited the wrath of the theological bigots, +and was finally crucified; that afterward he was raised from the +dead, and that if anybody believes this he will be saved and if he +fails to believe it, he will be lost; in other words, that which +is distinctly Christian in the Christian system, is its supernaturalism, +its miracles, its absurdity. Truth does not need to go into +partnership with the supernatural. What Christ said is worth the +reason it contains. If a man raises the dead and then says twice +two are five, that changes no rule in mathematics. If a multiplication +table was divinely inspired, that does no good. The question is, +is it correct? So I think that in the world of morals, we must +prove that a thing is right or wrong by experience, by analogy, +not by miracles. There is no fact in physical science that can be +supernaturally demonstrated. Neither is there any fact in the +moral world that could be substantiated by miracles. Now, then, +keeping in mind that by Christianity I mean the supernatural in +that system, of course I am just as far away from it as I can get. +For the man Christ I have respect. He was an infidel in his day, +and the ministers of his day cried out blasphemy, as they have been +crying ever since, against every person who has suggested a new +thought or shown the worthlessness of an old one. + +Now, as to the third part of the question, the Bible. People say +that the Bible is inspired. Well, what does inspiration mean? +Did God write it? No; but the men who did write it were guided by +the Holy Spirit. Very well. Did they write exactly what the Holy +Spirit wanted them to write? Well, religious people say, yes. At +the same time they admit that the gentlemen who were collecting, +or taking down in shorthand what was said, had to use their own +words. Now, we all know that the same words do not have the same +meaning to all people. It is impossible to convey the same thoughts +to all minds by the same language, and it is for that reason that +the Bible has produced so many sects, not only disagreeing with +each other, but disagreeing among themselves. + +We find, then, that it is utterly impossible for God (admitting +that there is one) to convey the same thoughts in human language +to all people. No two persons understand the same language alike. +A man's understanding depends upon his experience, upon his capacity, +upon the particular bent of his mind--in fact, upon the countless +influences that have made him what he is. Everything in nature +tells everyone who sees it a story, but that story depends upon +the capacity of the one to whom it is told. The sea says one thing +to the ordinary man, and another thing to Shakespeare. The stars +have not the same language for all people. The consequence is that +no book can tell the same story to any two persons. The Jewish +Scriptures are like other books, written by different men in +different ages of the world, hundreds of years apart, filled with +contradictions. They embody, I presume, fairly enough, the wisdom +and ignorance, the reason and prejudice, of the times in which they +were written. They are worth the good that is in them, and the +question is whether we will take the good and throw the bad away. +There are good laws and bad laws. There are wise and foolish +sayings. There are gentle and cruel passages, and you can find a +text to suit almost any frame of mind; whether you wish to do an +act of charity or murder a neighbor's babe, you will find a passage +that will exactly fit the case. So that I can say that I am still +for the reasonable, for the natural; and am still opposed to the +absurd and supernatural. + +_Question_. Is there any better or more ennobling belief than +Christianity; if so, what is it? + +_Answer_. There are many good things, of course, in every religion, +or they would not have existed; plenty of good precepts in +Christianity, but the thing that I object to more than all others +is the doctrine of eternal punishment, the idea of hell for many +and heaven for the few. Take from Christianity the doctrine of +eternal punishment and I have no particular objection to what is +generally preached. If you will take that away, and all the +supernatural connected with it, I have no objection; but that +doctrine of eternal punishment tends to harden the human heart. +It has produced more misery than all the other doctrines in the +world. It has shed more blood; it has made more martyrs. It has +lighted the fires of persecution and kept the sword of cruelty wet +with heroic blood for at least a thousand years. There is no crime +that that doctrine has not produced. I think it would be impossible +for the imagination to conceive of a worse religion than orthodox +Christianity--utterly impossible; a doctrine that divides this +world, a doctrine that divides families, a doctrine that teaches +the son that he can be happy, with his mother in perdition; the +husband that he can be happy in heaven while his wife suffers the +agonies of hell. This doctrine is infinite injustice, and tends +to subvert all ideas of justice in the human heart. I think it +would be impossible to conceive of a doctrine better calculated to +make wild beasts of men than that; in fact, that doctrine was born +of all the wild beast there is in man. It was born of infinite +revenge. + +Think of preaching that you must believe that a certain being was +the son of God, no matter whether your reason is convinced or not. +Suppose one should meet, we will say on London Bridge, a man clad +in rags, and he should stop us and say, "My friend, I wish to talk +with you a moment. I am the rightful King of Great Britain," and +you should say to him, "Well, my dinner is waiting; I have no time +to bother about who the King of England is," and then he should +meet another and insist on his stopping while the pulled out some +papers to show that he was the rightful King of England, and the +other man should say, "I have got business here, my friend; I am +selling goods, and I have no time to bother my head about who the +King of England is. No doubt you are the King of England, but you +don't look like him." And then suppose he stops another man, and +makes the same statement to him, and the other man should laugh at +him and say, "I don't want to hear anything on this subject; you +are crazy; you ought to go to some insane asylum, or put something +on your head to keep you cool." And suppose, after all, it should +turn out that the man was King of England, and should afterward +make his claim good and be crowned in Westminster. What would we +think of that King if he should hunt up the gentlemen that he met +on London Bridge, and have their heads cut off because they had +no faith that he was the rightful heir? And what would we think +of a God now who would damn a man eighteen hundred years after the +event, because he did not believe that he was God at the time he +was living in Jerusalem; not only damn the fellows that he met and +who did not believe him, but gentlemen who lived eighteen hundred +years afterward, and who certainly could have known nothing of the +facts except from hearsay? + +The best religion, after all, is common sense; a religion for this +world, one world at a time, a religion for to-day. We want a +religion that will deal in questions in which we are interested. +How are we to do away with crime? How are we to do away with +pauperism? How are we to do away with want and misery in every +civilized country? England is a Christian nation, and yet about +one in six in the city of London dies in almshouses, asylums, +prisons, hospitals and jails. We, I suppose, are a civilized +nation, and yet all the penitentiaries are crammed; there is want +on every hand, and my opinion is that we had better turn our +attention to this world. + +Christianity is charitable; Christianity spends a great deal of +money; but I am somewhat doubtful as to the good that is accomplished. +There ought to be some way to prevent crime; not simply to punish +it. There ought to be some way to prevent pauperism, not simply +to relieve temporarily a pauper, and if the ministers and good +people belonging to the churches would spend their time investigating +the affairs of this world and let the New Jerusalem take care of +itself, I think it would be far better. + +The church is guilty of one great contradiction. The ministers +are always talking about worldly people, and yet, were it not for +worldly people, who would pay the salary? How could the church +live a minute unless somebody attended to the affairs of this world? +The best religion, in my judgment, is common sense going along hand +in hand with kindness, and not troubling ourselves about another +world until we get there. I am willing for one, to wait and see +what kind of a country it will be. + +_Question_. Does the question of the inspiration of Scriptures +affect the beauty and benefits of Christianity here and hereafter? + +_Answer_. A belief in the inspiration of the Scriptures has done, +in my judgment, great harm. The Bible has been the breastwork for +nearly everything wrong. The defenders of slavery relied on the +Bible. The Bible was the real auction block on which every negro +stood when he was sold. I never knew a minister to preach in favor +of slavery that did not take his text from the Bible. The Bible +teaches persecution for opinion's sake. The Bible--that is the +Old Testament--upholds polygamy, and just to the extent that men, +through the Bible, have believed that slavery, religious persecution, +wars of extermination and polygamy were taught by God, just to that +extent the Bible has done great harm. The idea of inspiration +enslaves the human mind and debauches the human heart. + +_Question_. Is not Christianity and the belief in God a check upon +mankind in general and thus a good thing in itself? + +_Answer_. This, again, brings up the question of what you mean by +Christianity, but taking it for granted that you mean by Christianity +the church, then I answer, when the church had almost absolute +authority, then the world was the worst. + +Now, as to the other part of the question, "Is not a belief in God +a check upon mankind in general?" That is owing to what kind of +God the man believes in. When mankind believed in the God of the +Old Testament, I think that belief was a bad thing; the tendency +was bad. I think that John Calvin patterned after Jehovah as nearly +as his health and strength would permit. Man makes God in his own +image, and bad men are not apt to have a very good God if they make +him. I believe it is far better to have a real belief in goodness, +in kindness, in honesty and in mankind than in any supernatural +being whatever. I do not suppose it would do any harm for a man +to believe in a real good God, a God without revenge, a God that +was not very particular in having a man believe a doctrine whether +he could understand it or not. I do not believe that a belief of +that kind would do any particular harm. + +There is a vast difference between the God of John Calvin and the +God of Henry Ward Beecher, and a great difference between the God +of Cardinal Pedro Gonzales de Mendoza and the God of Theodore +Parker. + +_Question_. Well, Colonel, is the world growing better or worse? + +_Answer_. I think better in some respects and worse in others; +but on the whole, better. I think that while events, like the +pendulum of a clock, go backward and forward, man, like the hands, +goes forward. I think there is more reason and less religion, more +charity and less creed. I think the church is improving. Ministers +are ashamed to preach the old doctrines with the old fervor. There +was a time when the pulpit controlled the pews. It is so no longer. +The pews know what they want, and if the minister does not furnish +it they discharge him and employ another. He is no longer an +autocrat; he must bring to the market what his customers are willing +to buy. + +_Question_. What are you going to do to be saved? + +_Answer_. Well, I think I am safe, anyway. I suppose I have a +right to rely on what Matthew says, that if I will forgive others +God will forgive me. I suppose if there is another world I shall +be treated very much as I treat others. I never expect to find +perfect bliss anywhere; maybe I should tire of it if I should. +What I have endeavored to do has been to put out the fires of an +ignorant and cruel hell; to do what I could to destroy that dogma; +to destroy the doctrine that makes the cradle as terrible as the +coffin. + +--_The Denver Republican_, Denver, Colorado, January 17, 1884. + + +THE OATH QUESTION. + +_Question_. I suppose that your attention has been called to the +excitement in England over the oath question, and you have probably +wondered that so much should have been made of so little? + +_Answer_. Yes; I have read a few articles upon the subject, +including one by Cardinal Newman. It is wonderful that so many +people imagine that there is something miraculous in the oath. +They seem to regard it as a kind of verbal fetich, a charm, an "open +sesame" to be pronounced at the door of truth, a spell, a kind of +moral thumbscrew, by means of which falsehood itself is compelled +to turn informer. + +The oath has outlived its brother, "the wager of battle." Both +were born of the idea that God would interfere for the right and +for the truth. Trial by fire and by water had the same origin. +It was once believed that the man in the wrong could not kill the +man in the right; but, experience having shown that he usually did, +the belief gradually fell into disrepute. So it was once thought +that a perjurer could not swallow a piece of sacramental bread; +but, the fear that made the swallowing difficult having passed +away, the appeal to the corsned was abolished. It was found that +a brazen or a desperate man could eat himself out of the greatest +difficulty with perfect ease, satisfying the law and his own hunger +at the same time. + +The oath is a relic of barbarous theology, of the belief that a +personal God interferes in the affairs of men; that some God protects +innocence and guards the right. The experience of the world has +sadly demonstrated the folly of that belief. The testimony of a +witness ought to be believed, not because it is given under the +solemnities of an oath, but because it is reasonable. If unreasonable +it ought to be thrown aside. The question ought not to be, "Has +this been sworn to?" but, "Is this true?" The moment evidence is +tested by the standard of reason, the oath becomes a useless +ceremony. Let the man who gives false evidence be punished as the +lawmaking power may prescribe. He should be punished because he +commits a crime against society, and he should be punished in this +world. All honest men will tell the truth if they can; therefore, +oaths will have no effect upon them. Dishonest men will not tell +the truth unless the truth happens to suit their purpose; therefore, +oaths will have no effect upon them. We punish them, not for +swearing to a lie, but for telling it, and we can make the punishment +for telling the falsehood just as severe as we wish. If they are +to be punished in another world, the probability is that the +punishment there will be for having told the falsehood here. After +all, a lie is made no worse by an oath, and the truth is made no +better. + +_Question_. You object then to the oath. Is your objection based +on any religious grounds, or on any prejudice against the ceremony +because of its religious origin; or what is your objection? + +_Answer_. I care nothing about the origin of the ceremony. The +objection to the oath is this: It furnishes a falsehood with a +letter of credit. It supplies the wolf with sheep's clothing and +covers the hands of Jacob with hair. It blows out the light, and +in the darkness Leah is taken for Rachel. It puts upon each witness +a kind of theological gown. This gown hides the moral rags of the +depraved wretch as well as the virtues of the honest man. The oath +is a mask that falsehood puts on, and for a moment is mistaken for +truth. It gives to dishonesty the advantage of solemnity. The +tendency of the oath is to put all testimony on an equality. The +obscure rascal and the man of sterling character both "swear," and +jurors who attribute a miraculous quality to the oath, forget the +real difference in the men, and give about the same weight to the +evidence of each, because both were "sworn." A scoundrel is +delighted with the opportunity of going through a ceremony that +gives importance and dignity to his story, that clothes him for +the moment with respectability, loans him the appearance of +conscience, and gives the ring of true coin to the base metal. To +him the oath is a shield. He is in partnership, for a moment, with +God, and people who have no confidence in the witness credit the +firm. + +_Question_. Of course you know the religionists insist that people +are more likely to tell the truth when "sworn," and that to take +away the oath is to destroy the foundation of testimony? + +_Answer_. If the use of the oath is defended on the ground that +religious people need a stimulus to tell the truth, then I am +compelled to say that religious people have been so badly educated +that they mistake the nature of the crime. + +They should be taught that to defeat justice by falsehood is the +real offence. Besides, fear is not the natural foundation of +virtue. Even with religious people fear cannot always last. +Ananias and Sapphira have been dead so long, and since their time +so many people have sworn falsely without affecting their health +that the fear of sudden divine vengeance no longer pales the cheek +of the perjurer. If the vengeance is not sudden, then, according +to the church, the criminal will have plenty of time to repent; so +that the oath no longer affects even the fearful. Would it not be +better for the church to teach that telling the falsehood is the +real crime, and that taking the oath neither adds to nor takes from +its enormity? Would it not be better to teach that he who does +wrong must suffer the consequences, whether God forgives him or not? + +He who tries to injure another may or may not succeed, but he cannot +by any possibility fail to injure himself. Men should be taught +that there is no difference between truth-telling and truth-swearing. +Nothing is more vicious than the idea that any ceremony or form of +words--hand-lifting or book-kissing--can add, even in the slightest +degree, to the perpetual obligation every human being is under to +speak the truth. + +The truth, plainly told, naturally commends itself to the intelligent. +Every fact is a genuine link in the infinite chain, and will agree +perfectly with every other fact. A fact asks to be inspected, asks +to be understood. It needs no oath, no ceremony, no supernatural +aid. It is independent of all the gods. A falsehood goes in +partnership with theology, and depends on the partner for success. + +To show how little influence for good has been attributed to the +oath, it is only necessary to say that for centuries, in the +Christian world, no person was allowed to testify who had the +slightest pecuniary interest in the result of a suit. + +The expectation of a farthing in this world was supposed to outweigh +the fear of God's wrath in the next. All the pangs, pains, and +penalties of perdition were considered as nothing when compared +with pounds, shillings and pence in this world. + +_Question_. You know that in nearly all deliberative bodies--in +parliaments and congresses--an oath or an affirmation is required +to support what is called the Constitution; and that all officers +are required to swear or affirm that they will discharge their +duties; do these oaths and affirmations, in your judgment, do any +good? + +_Answer_. Men have sought to make nations and institutions immortal +by oaths. Subjects have sworn to obey kings, and kings have sworn +to protect subjects, and yet the subjects have sometimes beheaded +a king; and the king has often plundered the subjects. The oaths +enabled them to deceive each other. Every absurdity in religion, +and all tyrannical institutions, have been patched, buttressed, +and reinforced by oaths; and yet the history of the world shows +the utter futility of putting in the coffin of an oath the political +and religious aspirations of the race. + +Revolutions and reformations care little for "So help me God." +Oaths have riveted shackles and sanctified abuses. People swear +to support a constitution, and they will keep the oath as long as +the constitution supports them. In 1776 the colonists cared nothing +for the fact that they had sworn to support the British crown. +All the oaths to defend the Constitution of the United States did +not prevent the Civil War. We have at last learned that States +may be kept together for a little time, by force; permanently only +by mutual interests. We have found that the Delilah of superstition +cannot bind with oaths the secular Samson. + +Why should a member of Parliament or of Congress swear to maintain +the Constitution? If he is a dishonest man, the oath will have no +effect; if he is an honest patriot, it will have no effect. In +both cases it is equally useless. If a member fails to support +the Constitution the probability is that his constituents will +treat him as he does the Constitution. In this country, after all +the members of Congress have sworn or affirmed to defend the +Constitution, each political party charges the other with a deliberate +endeavor to destroy that "sacred instrument." Possibly the political +oath was invented to prevent the free and natural development of +a nation. Kings and nobles and priests wished to retain the property +they had filched and clutched, and for that purpose they compelled +the real owners to swear that they would support and defend the +law under color of which the theft and robbery had been accomplished. + +So, in the church, creeds have been protected by oaths. Priests +and laymen solemnly swore that they would, under no circumstances, +resort to reason; that they would overcome facts by faith, and +strike down demonstrations with the "sword of the spirit." Professors +of the theological seminary at Andover, Massachusetts, swear to +defend certain dogmas and to attack others. They swear sacredly +to keep and guard the ignorance they have. With them, philosophy +leads to perjury, and reason is the road to crime. While theological +professors are not likely to make an intellectual discovery, still +it is unwise, by taking an oath, to render that certain which is +only improbable. + +If all witnesses sworn to tell the truth, did so, if all members +of Parliament and of Congress, in taking the oath, became intelligent, +patriotic, and honest, I should be in favor of retaining the +ceremony; but we find that men who have taken the same oath advocate +opposite ideas, and entertain different opinions, as to the meaning +of constitutions and laws. The oath adds nothing to their +intelligence; does not even tend to increase their patriotism, and +certainly does not make the dishonest honest. + +_Question_. Are not persons allowed to testify in the United States +whether they believe in future rewards and punishments or not? + +_Answer_. In this country, in most of the States, witnesses are +allowed to testify whether they believe in perdition and paradise +or not. In some States they are allowed to testify even if they +deny the existence of God. We have found that religious belief +does not compel people to tell the truth, and than an utter denial +of every Christian creed does not even tend to make them dishonest. +You see, a religious belief does not affect the senses. Justice +should not shut any door that leads to truth. No one will pretend +that, because you do not believe in hell, your sight is impaired, +or your hearing dulled, or your memory rendered less retentive. +A witness in a court is called upon to tell what he has seen, what +he has heard, what he remembers, not what he believes about gods +and devils and hells and heavens. A witness substantiates not a +faith, but a fact. In order to ascertain whether a witness will +tell the truth, you might with equal propriety examine him as to +his ideas about music, painting or architecture, as theology. A +man may have no ear for music, and yet remember what he hears. He +may care nothing about painting, and yet is able to tell what he +sees. So he may deny every creed, and yet be able to tell the +facts as he remembers them. + +Thomas Jefferson was wise enough so to frame the Constitution of +Virginia that no person could be deprived of any civil right on +account of his religious or irreligious belief. Through the +influence of men like Paine, Franklin and Jefferson, it was provided +in the Federal Constitution that officers elected under its authority +could swear or affirm. This was the natural result of the separation +of church and state. + +_Question_. I see that your Presidents and Governors issue their +proclamations calling on the people to assemble in their churches +and offer thanks to God. How does this happen in a Government +where church and state are not united? + +_Answer_. Jefferson, when President, refused to issue what is +known as the "Thanksgiving Proclamation," on the ground that the +Federal Government had no right to interfere in religious matters; +that the people owed no religious duties to the Government; that +the Government derived its powers, not from priests or gods, but +from the people, and was responsible alone to the source of its +power. The truth is, the framers of our Constitution intended that +the Government should be secular in the broadest and best sense; +and yet there are thousands and thousands of religious people in +this country who are greatly scandalized because there is no +recognition of God in the Federal Constitution; and for several +years a great many ministers have been endeavoring to have the +Constitution amended so as to recognize the existence of God and +the divinity of Christ. A man by the name of Pollock was once +superintendent of the mint of Philadelphia. He was almost insane +about having God in the Constitution. Failing in that, he got the +inscription on our money, "In God we Trust." As our silver dollar +is now, in fact, worth only eighty-five cents, it is claimed that +the inscription means that we trust in God for the other fifteen +cents. + +There is a constant effort on the part of many Christians to have +their religion in some way recognized by law. Proclamations are +now issued calling upon the people to give thanks, and directing +attention to the fact that, while God has scourged or neglected +other nations, he has been remarkably attentive to the wants and +wishes of the United States. Governors of States issue these +documents written in a tone of pious insincerity. The year may or +may not have been prosperous, yet the degree of thankfulness called +for is always precisely the same. + +A few years ago the Governor of Iowa issued an exceedingly rhetorical +proclamation, in which the people were requested to thank God for +the unparalleled blessings he had showered upon them. A private +citizen, fearing that the Lord might be misled by official +correspondence, issued his proclamation, in which he recounted with +great particularity the hardships of the preceding year. He insisted +that the weather had been of the poorest quality; that the spring +came late, and the frost early; that the people were in debt; that +the farms were mortgaged; that the merchants were bankrupt; and +that everything was in the worst possible condition. He concluded +by sincerely hoping that the Lord would pay no attention to the +proclamation of the Governor, but would, if he had any doubt on +the subject, come down and examine the State for himself. + +These proclamations have always appeared to me absurdly egotistical. +Why should God treat us any better than he does the rest of his +children? Why should he send pestilence and famine to China, and +health and plenty to us? Why give us corn, and Egypt cholera? +All these proclamations grow out of egotism and selfishness, of +ignorance and superstition, and are based upon the idea that God +is a capricious monster; that he loves flattery; that he can be +coaxed and cajoled. + +The conclusion of the whole matter with me is this: For truth in +courts we must depend upon the trained intelligence of judges, the +right of cross-examination, the honesty and common sense of jurors, +and upon an enlightened public opinion. As for members of Congress, +we will trust to the wisdom and patriotism, not only of the members, +but of their constituents. In religion we will give to all the +luxury of absolute liberty. + +The alchemist did not succeed in finding any stone the touch of +which transmuted baser things to gold; and priests have not invented +yet an oath with power to force from falsehood's desperate lips +the pearl of truth. + +--_Secular Review_, London, England, 1884. + + +WENDELL PHILLIPS, FITZ JOHN PORTER AND BISMARCK. + +_Question_. Are you seeking to quit public lecturing on religious +questions? + +_Answer_. As long as I live I expect now and then to say my say +against the religious bigotry and cruelty of the world. As long +as the smallest coal is red in hell I am going to keep on. I never +had the slightest idea of retiring. I expect the church to do the +retiring. + +_Question_. What do you think of Wendell Phillips as an orator? + +_Answer_. He was a very great orator--one of the greatest that +the world has produced. He rendered immense service in the cause +of freedom. He was in the old days the thunderbolt that pierced +the shield of the Constitution. One of the bravest soldiers that +ever fought for human rights was Wendell Phillips. + +_Question_. What do you think of the action of Congress on Fitz +John Porter? + +_Answer_. I think Congress did right. I think they should have +taken this action long before. There was a question of his guilt, +and he should have been given the benefit of a doubt. They say he +could have defeated Longstreet. There are some people, you know, +who would have it that an army could be whipped by a good general +with six mules and a blunderbuss. But we do not regard those +people. They know no more about it than a lady who talked to me +about Porter's case. She argued the question of Porter's guilt +for half an hour. I showed her where she was all wrong. When she +found she was beaten she took refuge with "Oh, well, anyhow he had +no genius." Well, if every man is to be shot who has no genius, +I want to go into the coffin business. + +_Question_. What, in your judgment, is necessary to be done to +insure Republican success this fall? + +_Answer_. It is only necessary for the Republican party to stand +by its principles. We must be in favor of protecting American +labor not only, but of protecting American capital, and we must be +in favor of civil rights, and must advocate the doctrine that the +Federal Government must protect all citizens. I am in favor of a +tariff, not simply to raise a revenue--that I regard as incidental. +The Democrats regard protection as incidental. The two principles +should be, protection to American industry and protection to American +citizens. So that, after all, there is but one issue--protection. +As a matter of fact, that is all a government is for--to protect. +The Republican party is stronger to-day than it was four years ago. +The Republican party stands for the progressive ideas of the American +people. It has been said that the administration will control the +Southern delegates. I do not believe it. This administration has +not been friendly to the Southern Republicans, and my opinion is +there will be as much division in the Southern as in the Northern +States. I believe Blaine will be a candidate, and I do not believe +the Prohibitionists will put a ticket in the field, because they +have no hope of success. + +_Question_. What do you think generally of the revival of the +bloody shirt? Do you think the investigations of the Republicans +of the Danville and Copiah massacres will benefit them? + +_Answer_. Well, I am in favor of the revival of that question just +as often as a citizen of the Republic is murdered on account of +his politics. If the South is sick of that question, let it stop +persecuting men because they are Republicans. I do not believe, +however, in simply investigating the question and then stopping +after the guilty ones are found. I believe in indicting them, +trying them, and convicting them. If the Government can do nothing +except investigate, we might as well stop, and admit that we have +no government. Thousands of people think that it is almost vulgar +to take the part of the poor colored people in the South. What +part should you take if not that of the weak? The strong do not +need you. And I can tell the Southern people now, that as long as +they persecute for opinion's sake they will never touch the reins +of political power in this country. + +_Question_. How do you regard the action of Bismarck in returning +the Lasker resolutions? Was it the result of his hatred of the +Jews? + +_Answer_. Bismarck opposed a bill to do away with the disabilities +of the Jews on the ground that Prussia is a Christian nation, +founded for the purpose of spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ. +I presume that it was his hatred of the Jews that caused him to +return the resolutions. Bismarck should have lived several centuries +ago. He belongs to the Dark Ages. He is a believer in the sword +and the bayonet--in brute force. He was loved by Germany simply +because he humiliated France. Germany gave her liberty for revenge. +It is only necessary to compare Bismarck with Gambetta to see what +a failure he really is. Germany was victorious and took from France +the earnings of centuries; and yet Germany is to-day the least +prosperous nation in Europe. France was prostrate, trampled into +the earth, robbed, and yet, guided by Gambetta, is to-day the most +prosperous nation in Europe. This shows the difference between +brute force and brain. + +--_The Times_, Chicago, Illinois, February 21, 1884. + + +GENERAL SUBJECTS. + +_Question_. Do you enjoy lecturing? + +_Answer_. Of course I enjoy lecturing. It is a great pleasure to +drive the fiend of fear out of the hearts of men women and children. +It is a positive joy to put out the fires of hell. + +_Question_. Where do you meet with the bitterest opposition? + +_Answer_. I meet with the bitterest opposition where the people +are the most ignorant, where there is the least thought, where +there are the fewest books. The old theology is becoming laughable. +Very few ministers have the impudence to preach in the old way. +They give new meanings to old words. They subscribe to the same +creed, but preach exactly the other way. The clergy are ashamed +to admit that they are orthodox, and they ought to be. + +_Question_. Do liberal books, such as the works of Paine and +Infidel scientists sell well? + +_Answer_. Yes, they are about the only books on serious subjects +that do sell well. The works of Darwin, Buckle, Draper, Haeckel, +Tyndall, Humboldt and hundreds of others, are read by intelligent +people the world over. Works of a religious character die on the +shelves. The people want facts. They want to know about the world, +about all forms of life. They want the mysteries of every day +solved. They want honest thoughts about sensible questions. They +are tired of the follies of faith and the falsehoods of superstition. +They want a heaven here. In a few years the old theological books +will be sold to make paper on which to print the discoveries of +science. + +_Question_. In what section of the country do you find the most +liberality? + +_Answer_. I find great freedom of thought in Boston, New York, +Chicago, San Francisco, in fact, all over what we call the North. +The West of course is liberal. The truth is that all the intelligent +part of the country is liberal. The railroad, the telegraph, the +daily paper, electric light, the telephone, and freedom of thought +belong together. + +_Question_. Is it true that you were once threatened with a criminal +prosecution for libel on religion? + +_Answer_. Yes, in Delaware. Chief Justice Comegys instructed the +grand jury to indict me for blasphemy. I have taken by revenge on +the State by leaving it in ignorance. Delaware is several centuries +behind the times. It is as bigoted as it is small. Compare Kansas +City with Wilmington and you will see the difference between +liberalism and orthodoxy. + +_Question_. This is Washington's birthday. What do you think of +General Washington? + +_Answer_. I suppose that Washington was what was called religious. +He was not very strict in his conduct. He tried to have church +and state united in Virginia and was defeated by Jefferson. It +should make no difference with us whether Washington was religious +or not. Jefferson was by far the greater man. In intellect there +was no comparison between Washington and Franklin. I do not prove +the correctness of my ideas by names of dead people. I depend upon +reason instead of gravestones. One fact is worth a cemetery full +of distinguished corpses. We ask not for the belief of somebody, +but for evidence, for facts. The church is a beggar at the door +of respectability. The moment a man becomes famous, the church +asks him for a certificate that the Bible is true. It passes its +hat before generals and presidents, and kings while they are alive. +It says nothing about thinkers and real philosophers while they +live, except to slander them, but the moment they are dead it seeks +among their words for a crumb of comfort. + +_Question_. Will Liberalism ever organize in America? + +_Answer_. I hope not. Organization means creed, and creed means +petrifaction and tyranny. I believe in individuality. I will not +join any society except an anti-society society. + +_Question_. Do you consider the religion of Bhagavat Purana of +the East as good as the Christian? + +_Answer_. It is far more poetic. It has greater variety and shows +vastly more thought. Like the Hebrew, it is poisoned with +superstition, but it has more beauty. Nothing can be more barren +than the theology of the Jews and Christians. One lonely God, a +heaven filled with thoughtless angels, a hell with unfortunate +souls. Nothing can be more desolate. The Greek mythology is +infinitely better. + +_Question_. Do you think that the marriage institution is held in +less respect by Infidels than by Christians? + +_Answer_. No; there was never a time when marriage was more believed +in than now. Never were wives treated better and loved more; never +were children happier than now. It is the ambition of the average +American to have a good and happy home. The fireside was never +more popular than now. + +_Question_. What do you think of Beecher? + +_Answer_. He is a great man, but the habit of his mind and the +bent of his early education oppose his heart. He is growing and +has been growing every day for many years. He has given up the +idea of eternal punishment, and that of necessity destroys it all. +The Christian religion is founded upon hell. When the foundation +crumbles the fabric falls. Beecher was to have answered my article +in the _North American Review_, but when it appeared and he saw +it, he agreed with so much of it that he concluded that an answer +would be useless. + +--_The Times_, Kansas City, Missouri, February 23, 1884. + + +REPLY TO KANSAS CITY CLERGY. + +_Question_. Will you take any notice of Mr. Magrath's challenge? + +_Answer_. I do not think it worth while to discuss with Mr. Magrath. +I do not say this in disparagement of his ability, as I do not know +the gentleman. He may be one of the greatest of men. I think, +however, that Mr. Magrath might better answer what I have already +said. If he succeeds in that, then I will meet him in public +discussion. Of course he is an eminent theologian or he would not +think of discussing these questions with anybody. I have never +heard of him, but for all that he may be the most intelligent of +men. + +_Question_. How have the recently expressed opinions of our local +clergy impressed you? + +_Answer_. I suppose you refer to the preachers who have given +their opinion of me. In the first place I am obliged to them for +acting as my agents. I think Mr. Hogan has been imposed upon. +Tacitus is a poor witness--about like Josephus. I say again that +we have not a word about Christ written by any human being who +lived in the time of Christ--not a solitary word, and Mr. Hogan +ought to know it. + +The Rev. Mr. Matthews is mistaken. If the Bible proves anything, +it proves that the world was made in six days and that Adam and +Eve were built on Saturday. The Bible gives the age of Adam when +he died, and then gives the ages of others down to the flood, and +then from that time at least to the return from the captivity. If +the genealogy of the Bible is true it is about six thousand years +since Adam was made, and the world is only five days older than +Adam. It is nonsense to say that the days were long periods of +time. If that is so, away goes the idea of Sunday. The only reason +for keeping Sunday given in the Bible is that God made the world +in six days and rested on the seventh. Mr. Mathews is not candid. +He knows that he cannot answer the arguments I have urged against +the Bible. He knows that the ancient Jews were barbarians, and +that the Old Testament is a barbarous book. He knows that it +upholds slavery and polygamy, and he probably feels ashamed of what +he is compelled to preach. + +Mr. Jardine takes a very cheerful view of the subject. He expects +the light to dawn on the unbelievers. He speaks as though he were +the superior of all Infidels. He claims to be a student of the +evidences of Christianity. There are no evidences, consequently +Mr. Jardine is a student of nothing. It is amazing how dignified +some people can get on a small capital. + +Mr. Haley has sense enough to tell the ministers not to attempt to +answer me. That is good advice. The ministers had better keep +still. It is the safer way. If they try to answer what I say, +the "sheep" will see how foolish the "shepherds" are. The best +way is for them to say, "that has been answered." + +Mr. Wells agrees with Mr. Haley. He, too, thinks that silence is +the best weapon. I agree with him. Let the clergy keep still; +that is the best way. It is better to say nothing than to talk +absurdity. I am delighted to think that at last the ministers have +concluded that they had better not answer Infidels. + +Mr. Woods is fearful only for the young. He is afraid that I will +hurt the children. He thinks that the mother ought to stoop over +the cradle and in the ears of the babe shout, Hell! So he thinks +in all probability that the same word ought to be repeated at the +grave as a consolation to mourners. + +I am glad that Mr. Mann thinks that I am doing neither good nor +harm. This gives me great hope. If I do no harm, certainly I +ought not to be eternally damned. It is very consoling to have an +orthodox minister solemnly assert that I am doing no harm. I wish +I could say as much for him. + +The truth is, all these ministers have kept back their real thoughts. +They do not tell their doubts--they know that orthodoxy is doomed +--they know that the old doctrine excites laughter and scorn. They +know that the fires of hell are dying out; that the Bible is ceasing +to be an authority; and that the pulpit is growing feebler and +feebler every day. Poor parsons! + +_Question_. Would the Catholicism of General Sherman's family +affect his chances for the presidency? + +_Answer_. I do not think the religion of the family should have +any weight one way or the other. It would make no difference with +me; although I hate Catholicism with all my heart, I do not hate +Catholics. Some people might be so prejudiced that they would not +vote for a man whose wife belongs to the Catholic Church; but such +people are too narrow to be consulted. General Sherman says that +he wants no office. In that he shows his good sense. He is a +great man and a great soldier. He has won laurels enough for one +brow. He has the respect and admiration of the nation, and does +not need the presidency to finish his career. He wishes to enjoy +the honors he has won and the rest he deserves. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of Matthew Arnold? + +_Answer_. He is a man of talent, well educated, a little fussy, +somewhat sentimental, but he is not a genius. He is not creative. +He is a critic--not an originator. He will not compare with +Emerson. + +--_The Journal_, Kansas City, Missouri, February 23, 1884. + + +SWEARING AND AFFIRMING. + +_Question_. What is the difference in the parliamentary oath of +this country which saves us from such a squabble as they have had +in England over the Bradlaugh case? + +_Answer_. Our Constitution provides that a member of Congress may +swear or affirm. The consequence is that we can have no such +controversy as they have had in England. The framers of our +Constitution wished forever to divorce church and state. They knew +that it made no possible difference whether a man swore or affirmed, +or whether he swore and affirmed to support the Constitution. All +the Federal officers who went into the Rebellion had sworn or affirmed +to support the Constitution. All that did no good. The entire +oath business is a mistake. I think it would be a thousand times +better to abolish all oaths in courts of justice. The oath allows +a rascal to put on the garments of solemnity, the mask of piety, +while he tells a lie. In other words, the oath allows the villain +to give falsehood the appearance of truth. I think it would be +far better to let each witness tell his story and leave his evidence +to the intelligence of the jury and judge. The trouble about an +oath is that its tendency is to put all witnesses on an equality; +the jury says, "Why, he swore to it." Now, if the oath were +abolished, the jury would judge all testimony according to the +witness, and then the evidence of one man of good reputation would +outweigh the lies of thousands of nobodies. + +It was at one time believed that there was something miraculous in +the oath, that it was a kind of thumbscrew that would torture the +truth out of a rascal, and at one time they believed that if a man +swore falsely he might be struck by lightning or paralyzed. But +so many people have sworn to lies without having their health +impaired that the old superstition has very little weight with the +average witness. I think it would be far better to let every man +tell his story; let him be cross-examined, let the jury find out +as much as they can of his character, of his standing among his +neighbors--then weigh his testimony in the scale of reason. The +oath is born of superstition, and everything born of superstition +is bad. The oath gives the lie currency; it gives it for the moment +the ring of true metal, and the ordinary average juror is imposed +upon and justice in many instances defeated. Nothing can be more +absurd than the swearing of a man to support the Constitution. +Let him do what he likes. If he does not support the Constitution, +the probability is that his constituents will refuse to support +him. Every man who swears to support the Constitution swears to +support it as he understands it, and no two understand it exactly +alike. Now, if the oath brightened a man's intellect or added to +his information or increased his patriotism or gave him a little +more honesty, it would be a good thing--but it doesn't. And as a +consequence it is a very useless and absurd proceeding. Nothing +amuses me more in a court than to see one calf kissing the tanned +skin of another. + +--_The Courier_, Buffalo, New York, May 19, 1884. + + +REPLY TO A BUFFALO CRITIC. + +_Question_. What have you to say in reply to the letter in to- +day's _Times_ signed R. H. S.? + +_Answer_. I find that I am accused of "four flagrant wrongs," and +while I am not as yet suffering from the qualms of conscience, nor +do I feel called upon to confess and be forgiven, yet I have +something to say in self-defence. + +As to the first objection made by your correspondent, namely, that +my doctrine deprives people of the hope that after this life is +ended they will meet their fathers, mothers, sisters and brothers, +long since passed away, in the land beyond the grave, and there +enjoy their company forever, I have this to say: If Christianity +is true we are not quite certain of meeting our relatives and +friends where we can enjoy their company forever. If Christianity +is true most of our friends will be in hell. The ones I love best +and whose memory I cherish will certainly be among the lost. The +trouble about Christianity is that it is infinitely selfish. Each +man thinks that if he can save his own little, shriveled, microscopic +soul, that is enough. No matter what becomes of the rest. +Christianity has no consolation for a generous man. I do not wish +to go to heaven if the ones who have given me joy are to be lost. +I would much rather go with them. The only thing that makes life +endurable in this world is human love, and yet, according to +Christianity, that is the very thing we are not to have in the +other world. We are to be so taken up with Jesus and the angels, +that we shall care nothing about our brothers and sisters that have +been damned. We shall be so carried away with the music of the +harp that we shall not even hear the wail of father or mother. +Such a religion is a disgrace to human nature. + +As to the second objection,--that society cannot be held together +in peace and good order without hell and a belief in eternal torment, +I would ask why an infinitely wise and good God should make people +of so poor and mean a character that society cannot be held together +without scaring them. Is it possible that God has so made the +world that the threat of eternal punishment is necessary for the +preservation of society? + +The writer of the letter also says that it is necessary to believe +that if a man commits murder here he is destined to be punished in +hell for the offence. This is Christianity. Yet nearly every +murderer goes directly from the gallows to God. Nearly every +murderer takes it upon himself to lecture the assembled multitude +who have gathered to see him hanged, and invite them to meet him +in heaven. When the rope is about his neck he feels the wings +growing. That is the trouble with the Christian doctrine. Every +murderer is told he may repent and go to heaven, and have the +happiness of seeing his victim in hell. Should heaven at any time +become dull, the vein of pleasure can be re-thrilled by the sight +of his victim wriggling on the gridiron of God's justice. Really, +Christianity leads men to sin on credit. It sells rascality on +time and tells all the devils they can have the benefit of the +gospel bankrupt act. + +The next point in the letter is that I do not preach for the benefit +of mankind, but for the money which is the price of blood. Of +course it makes no difference whether I preach for money or not. +That is to say, it makes no difference to the preached. The +arguments I advance are either good or bad. If they are bad they +can easily be answered by argument. If they are not they cannot +be answered by personalities or by ascribing to me selfish motives. +It is not a personal matter. It is a matter of logic, of sense-- +not a matter of slander, vituperation or hatred. The writer of +the letter, R. H. S., may be an exceedingly good person, yet that +will add no weight to his or her argument. He or she may be a very +bad person, but that would not weaken the logic of the letter, if +it had any logic to begin with. It is not for me to say what my +motives are in what I do or say; it must be left to the judgment +of mankind. I presume I am about as bad as most folks, and as good +as some, but my goodness or badness has nothing to do with the +question. I may have committed every crime in the world, yet that +does not make the story of the flood reasonable, nor does it even +tend to show that the three gentlemen in the furnace were not +scorched. I may be the best man in the world, yet that does not +go to prove that Jonah was swallowed by the whale. Let me say +right here that if there is another world I believe that every soul +who finds the way to that shore will have an everlasting opportunity +to do right--of reforming. My objection to Christianity is that +it is infinitely cruel, infinitely selfish, and I might add infinitely +absurd. I deprive no one of any hope unless you call the expectation +of eternal pain a hope. + +_Question_. Have you read the Rev. Father Lambert's "Notes on +Ingersoll," and if so, what have you to say of them or in reply to +them? + +_Answer_. I have read a few pages or paragraphs of that pamphlet, +and do not feel called upon to say anything. Mr. Lambert has the +same right to publish his ideas that I have, and the readers must +judge. People who believe his way will probably think that he has +succeeded in answering me. After all, he must leave the public to +decide. I have no anxiety about the decision. Day by day the +people are advancing, and in a little while the sacred superstitions +of to-day will be cast aside with the foolish myths and fables of +the pagan world. + +As a matter of fact there can be no argument in favor of the +supernatural. Suppose you should ask if I had read the work of +that gentleman who says that twice two are five. I should answer +you that no gentleman can prove that twice two are five; and yet +this is exactly as easy as to prove the existence of the supernatural. +There are no arguments in favor of the supernatural. There are +theories and fears and mistakes and prejudices and guesses, but no +arguments--plenty of faith, but no facts; plenty of divine revelation, +but no demonstration. The supernatural, in my judgment, is a +mistake. I believe in the natural. + +--_The Times_, Buffalo, New York, May 19, 1884. + + +BLASPHEMY.* + +[* "If Robert G. Ingersoll indulges in blasphemy to-night in his +lecture, as he has in other places and in this city before, he +will be arrested before he leaves the city." So spoke Rev. Irwin +H. Torrence, General Secretary of the Pennsylvania Bible Society, +yesterday afternoon to a _Press_ reporter. "We have consulted +counsel; the law is with us, and Ingersoll has but to do what he +has done before, to find himself in a cell. Here is the act of +March 31, 1860: + +"'If any person shall willfully, premeditatedly and despitefully +blaspheme or speak loosely and profanely of Almighty God, Christ +Jesus, the Holy Spirit, or the Scriptures of Truth, such person, +on conviction thereof, shall be sentenced to pay a fine not exceeding +one hundred dollars, and undergo an imprisonment not exceeding +three months, or either, at the discretion of the court.'" + +Last evening Colonel Ingersoll sat in the dining room at Guy's +Hotel, just in from New York City. When told of the plans of Mr. +Torrence and his friends, he laughed and said: ] + +I did not suppose that anybody was idiotic enough to want me arrested +for blasphemy. It seems to me that an infinite Being can take care +of himself without the aid of any agent of a Bible society. Perhaps +it is wrong for me to be here while the Methodist Conference is in +session. Of course no one who differs from the Methodist ministers +should ever visit Philadelphia while they are here. I most humbly +hope to be forgiven. + +_Question_. What do you think of the law of 1860? + +_Answer_. It is exceedingly foolish. Surely, there is no need +for the Legislature of Pennsylvania to protect an infinite God, +and why should the Bible be protected by law? The most ignorant +priest can hold Darwin up to orthodox scorn. This talk of the Rev. +Mr. Torrence shows that my lectures are needed; that religious +people do not know what real liberty is. I presume that the law +of 1860 is an old one re-enacted. It is a survival of ancient +ignorance and bigotry, and no one in the Legislature thought it +worth while to fight it. It is the same as the law against swearing, +both are dead letters and amount to nothing. They are not enforced +and should not be. Public opinion will regulate such matters. If +all who take the name of God in vain were imprisoned there would +not be room in the jails to hold the ministers. They speak of God +in the most flippant and snap-your-fingers way that can be conceived +of. They speak to him as though he were an intimate chum, and +metaphorically slap him on the back in the most familiar way +possible. + +_Question_. Have you ever had any similar experiences before? + +_Answer_. Oh, yes--threats have been made, but I never was arrested. +When Mr. Torrence gets cool he will see that he has made a mistake. +People in Philadelphia have been in the habit of calling the citizens +of Boston bigots--but there is more real freedom of thought and +expression in Boston than in almost any other city of the world. +I think that as I am to suffer in hell forever, Mr. Torrence ought +to be satisfied and let me have a good time here. He can amuse +himself through all eternity by seeing me in hell, and that ought +to be enough to satisfy, not only an agent, but the whole Bible +society. I never expected any trouble in this State, and most +sincerely hope that Mr. Torrence will not trouble me and make the +city a laughing stock. + +Philadelphia has no time to waste in such foolish things. Let the +Bible take its chances with other books. Let everybody feel that +he has the right freely to express his opinions, provided he is +decent and kind about it. Certainly the Christians now ought to +treat Infidels as well as Penn did Indians. + +Nothing could be more perfectly idiotic than in this day and +generation to prosecute any man for giving his conclusions upon +any religious subject. Mr. Torrence would have had Huxley and +Haeckel and Tyndall arrested; would have had Humboldt and John +Stuart Mill and Harriet Martineau and George Eliot locked up in the +city jail. Mr. Torrence is a fossil from the old red sandstone of +a mistake. Let him rest. To hear these people talk you would +suppose that God is some petty king, some Liliputian prince, who +was about to be dethroned, and who was nearly wild for recruits. + +_Question_. But what would you do if they should make an attempt +to arrest you? + +_Answer_. Nothing, except to defend myself in court. + +--_Philadelphia Press_, May 24, 1884. + + +POLITICS AND BRITISH COLUMBIA. + +_Question_. I understand that there was some trouble in connection +with your lecture in Victoria, B. C. What are the facts? + +_Answer_. The published accounts, as circulated by the Associated +Press, were greatly exaggerated. The affair was simply this: The +authorities endeavored to prevent the lecture. They refused the +license, on the ground that the theatre was unsafe, although it +was on the ground floor, had many exits and entrances, not counting +the windows. The theatre was changed to meet the objections of +the fire commissioner, and the authorities expressed their satisfaction +and issued the license. Afterward further objection was raised, +and on the night of the lecture, when the building was about two- +thirds full, the police appeared and said that the lecture would +not be allowed to be delivered, because the house was unsafe. +After a good deal of talk, the policeman in authority said that +there should be another door, whereupon my friends, in a few minutes, +made another door with an ax and a saw, the crowd was admitted and +the lecture was delivered. The audience was well-behaved, intelligent +and appreciative. Beyond some talking in the hall, and the natural +indignation of those who had purchased tickets and were refused +admittance, there was no disturbance. I understand that those who +opposed the lecture are now heartily ashamed of the course pursued. + +_Question_. Are you going to take any part in the campaign? + +_Answer_. It is not my intention to make any political speeches. +I have made a good many in the past, and, in my judgment, have done +my part. I have no other interest in politics than every citizen +should have. I want that party to triumph which, in my judgment, +represents the best interests of the country. I have no doubt +about the issue of the election. I believe that Mr. Blaine will +be the next President. But there are plenty of talkers, and I +really think that I have earned a vacation. + +_Question_. What do you think Cleveland's chances are in New York? + +_Answer_. At this distance it is hard to say. The recent action +of Tammany complicates matters somewhat. But my opinion is that +Blaine will carry the State. I had a letter yesterday from that +State, giving the opinion of a gentleman well informed, that Blaine +would carry New York by no less than fifty thousand majority. + +_Question_. What figure will Butler cut in the campaign? + +_Answer_. I hardly think that Butler will have many followers on +the 4th of November. His forces will gradually go to one side or +the other. It is only when some great principle is at stake that +thousands of men are willing to vote with a known minority. + +_Question_. But what about the Prohibitionists? + +_Answer_. They have a very large following. They are fighting +for something they believe to be of almost infinite consequence, +and I can readily understand how a Prohibitionist is willing to be +in the minority. It may be well enough for me to say here, that +my course politically is not determined by my likes or dislikes of +individuals. I want to be governed by principles, not persons. +If I really thought that in this campaign a real principle was at +stake, I should take part. The only great question now is protection, +and I am satisfied that it is in no possible danger. + +_Question_. Not even in the case of a Democratic victory? + +_Answer_. Not even in the event of a Democratic victory. No State +in the Union is for free trade. Every free trader has an exception. +These exceptions combined, control the tariff legislation of this +country, and if the Democrats were in power to-day, with the control +of the House and Senate and Executive, the exceptions would combine +and protect protection. As long as the Federal Government collects +taxes or revenue on imports, just so long these revenues will be +arranged to protect home manufactures. + +_Question_. You said that if there were a great principle at stake, +you would take part in the campaign. You think, then, that there +is no great principle involved? + +_Answer_. If it were a matter of personal liberty, I should take +part. If the Republican party had stood by the Civil Rights Bill, +I should have taken part in the present campaign. + +_Question_. Still, I suppose we can count on you as a Republican? + +_Answer_. Certainly, I am a Republican. + +--_Evening Post_, San Francisco, California, September 16, 1884. + + +INGERSOLL CATECHISED. + +_Question_. Does Christianity advance or retard civilization? + +_Answer_. If by Christianity you mean the orthodox church, then +I unhesitatingly answer that it does retard civilization, always +has retarded it, and always will. I can imagine no man who can be +benefitted by being made a Catholic or a Presbyterian or a Baptist +or a Methodist--or, in other words, by being made an orthodox +Christian. But by Christianity I do not mean morality, kindness, +forgiveness, justice. Those virtues are not distinctively Christian. +They are claimed by Mohammedans and Buddhists, by Infidels and +Atheists--and practiced by some of all classes. Christianity +consists of the miraculous, the marvelous, and the impossible. + +The one thing that I most seriously object to in Christianity is +the doctrine of eternal punishment. That doctrine subverts every +idea of justice. It teaches the infinite absurdity that a finite +offence can be justly visited by eternal punishment. Another +serious objection I have is, that Christianity endeavors to destroy +intellectual liberty. Nothing is better calculated to retard +civilization than to subvert the idea of justice. Nothing is better +calculated to retain barbarism than to deny to every human being +the right to think. Justice and Liberty are the two wings that +bear man forward. The church, for a thousand years, did all within +its power to prevent the expression of honest thought; and when +the church had power, there was in this world no civilization. We +have advanced just in the proportion that Christianity has lost +power. Those nations in which the church is still powerful are +still almost savage--Portugal, Spain, and many others I might name. +Probably no country is more completely under the control of the +religious idea than Russia. The Czar is the direct representative +of God. He is the head of the church, as well as of the state. +In Russia every mouth is a bastille and every tongue a convict. +This Russian pope, this representative of God, has on earth his +hell (Siberia), and he imitates the orthodox God to the extent of +his health and strength. + +Everywhere man advances as the church loses power. In my judgment, +Ireland can never succeed until it ceases to be Catholic; and there +can be no successful uprising while the confessional exists. At +one time in New England the church had complete power. There was +then no religious liberty. And so we might make a tour of the +world, and find that superstition always has been, is, and forever +will be, inconsistent with human advancement. + +_Question_. Do not the evidences of design in the universe prove +a Creator? + +_Answer_. If there were any evidences of design in the universe, +certainly they would tend to prove a designer, but they would not +prove a Creator. Design does not prove creation. A man makes a +machine. That does not prove that he made the material out of +which the machine is constructed. You find the planets arranged +in accordance with what you call a plan. That does not prove that +they were created. It may prove that they are governed, but it +certainly does not prove that they were created. Is it consistent +to say that a design cannot exist without a designer, but that a +designer can? Does not a designer need a design as much as a design +needs a designer? Does not a Creator need a Creator as much as +the thing we think has been created? In other words, is not this +simply a circle of human ignorance? Why not say that the universe +has existed from eternity, as well as to say that a Creator has +existed from eternity? And do you not thus avoid at least one +absurdity by saying that the universe has existed from eternity, +instead of saying that it was created by a Creator who existed from +eternity? Because if your Creator existed from eternity, and +created the universe, there was a time when he commenced; and back +of that, according to Shelley, is "an eternity of idleness." + +Some people say that God existed from eternity, and has created +eternity. It is impossible to conceive of an act co-equal with +eternity. If you say that God has existed forever, and has always +acted, then you make the universe eternal, and you make the universe +as old as God; and if the universe be as old as God, he certainly +did not create it. + +These questions of origin and destiny--of infinite gods--are beyond +the powers of the human mind. They cannot be solved. We might as +well try to travel fast enough to get beyond the horizon. It is +like a man trying to run away from his girdle. Consequently, I +believe in turning our attention to things of importance--to +questions that may by some possibility be solved. It is of no +importance to me whether God exists or not. I exist, and it is +important to me to be happy while I exist. Therefore I had better +turn my attention to finding out the secret of happiness, instead +of trying to ascertain the secret of the universe. + +I say with regard to God, I do not know; and therefore I am accused +of being arrogant and egotistic. Religious papers say that I do +know, because Webster told me. They use Webster as a witness to +prove the divinity of Christ. They say that Webster was on the +God side, and therefore I ought to be. I can hardly afford to take +Webster's ideas of another world, when his ideas about this were +so bad. When bloodhounds were pursuing a woman through the tangled +swamps of the South--she hungry for liberty--Webster took the side +of the bloodhounds. Such a man is no authority for me. Bacon +denied the Copernican system of astronomy; he is an unsafe guide. +Wesley believed in witches; I cannot follow him. No man should +quote a name instead of an argument; no man should bring forward +a person instead of a principle, unless he is willing to accept +all the ideas of that person. + +_Question_. Is not a pleasant illusion preferable to a dreary +truth--a future life being in question? + +_Answer_. I think it is. I think that a pleasing illusion is +better then a terrible truth, so far as its immediate results are +concerned. I would rather think the one I love living, than to +think her dead. I would rather think that I had a large balance +in bank than that my account was overdrawn. I would rather think +I was healthy than to know that I had a cancer. But if we have an +illusion, let us have it pleasing. The orthodox illusion is the +worst that can possibly be conceived. Take hell out of that +illusion, take eternal pain away from that dream, and say that the +whole world is to be happy forever--then you might have an excuse +for calling it a pleasant illusion; but it is, in fact, a nightmare +--a perpetual horror--a cross, on which the happiness of man has +been crucified. + +_Question_. Are not religion and morals inseparable? + +_Answer_. Religion and morality have nothing in common, and yet +there is no religion except the practice of morality. But what +you call religion is simply superstition. Religion as it is now +taught teaches our duties toward God--our obligations to the +Infinite, and the results of a failure to discharge those obligations. +I believe that we are under no obligations to the Infinite; that +we cannot be. All our obligations are to each other, and to sentient +beings. "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be +saved," has nothing to do with morality. "Do unto other as ye +would that others should do unto you" has nothing to do with +believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. Baptism has nothing to do with +morality. "Pay your honest debts." That has nothing to do with +baptism. What is called religion is simple superstition, with +which morality has nothing to do. + +The churches do not prevent people from committing natural offences, +but restrain them from committing artificial ones. As for instance, +the Catholic Church can prevent one of its members from eating meat +on Friday, but not from whipping his wife. The Episcopal Church +can prevent dancing, it may be, in Lent, but not slander. The +Presbyterian can keep a man from working on Sunday, but not from +practicing deceit on Monday. And so I might go through the churches. +They lay the greater stress upon the artificial offences. Those +countries that are the most religious are the most immoral. When +the world was under the control of the Catholic Church, it reached +the very pit of immorality, and nations have advanced in morals +just in proportion that they have lost Christianity. + +_Question_. It is frequently asserted that there is nothing new +in your objections against Christianity. What is your reply to +such assertions? + +_Answer_. Of course, the editors of religious papers will say +this; Christians will say this. In my opinion, an argument is new +until it has been answered. An argument is absolutely fresh, and +has upon its leaves the dew of morning, until it has been refuted. +All men have experienced, it may be, in some degree, what we call +love. Millions of men have written about it. The subject is of +course old. It is only the presentation that can be new. Thousands +of men have attacked superstition. The subject is old, but the +manner in which the facts are handled, the arguments grouped--these +may be forever new. Millions of men have preached Christianity. +Certainly there is nothing new in the original ideas. Nothing can +be new except the presentation, the grouping. The ideas may be +old, but they may be clothed in new garments of passion; they may +be given additional human interest. A man takes a fact, or an old +subject, as a sculptor takes a rock; the rock is not new. Of this +rock he makes a statue; the statue is new. And yet some orthodox +man might say there is nothing new about that statue: "I know the +man that dug the rock; I know the owner of the quarry." Substance +is eternal; forms are new. So in the human mind certain ideas, or +in the human heart certain passions, are forever old; but genius +forever gives them new forms, new meanings; and this is the perpetual +originality of genius. + +_Question_. Do you consider that churches are injurious to the +community? + +_Answer_. In the exact proportion that churches teach falsehood; +in the exact proportion that they destroy liberty of thought, the +free action of the human mind; in the exact proportion that they +teach the doctrine of eternal pain, and convince people of its +truth--they are injurious. In the proportion that they teach +morality and justice, and practice kindness and charity--in that +proportion they are a benefit. Every church, therefore, is a mixed +problem--part good and part bad. In one direction it leads toward +and sheds light; in the other direction its influence is entirely +bad. + +Now, I would like to civilize the churches, so that they will be +able to do good deeds without building bad creeds. In other words, +take out the superstitious and the miraculous, and leave the human +and the moral. + +_Question_. Why do you not respond to the occasional clergyman +who replies to your lectures? + +_Answer_. In the first place, no clergyman has ever replied to my +lectures. In the second place, no clergyman ever will reply to my +lectures. He does not answer my arguments--he attacks me; and the +replies that I have seen are not worth answering. They are far +below the dignity of the question under discussion. Most of them +are ill-mannered, as abusive as illogical, and as malicious as +weak. I cannot reply without feeling humiliated. I cannot use +their weapons, and my weapons they do not understand. I attack +Christianity because it is cruel, and they account for all my +actions by putting behind them base motives. They make it at once +a personal question. They imagine that epithets are good enough +arguments with which to answer an Infidel. A few years ago they +would have imprisoned me. A few years before that they would have +burned me. We have advanced. Now they only slander; and I +congratulate myself on the fact that even that is not believed. +Ministers do not believe each other about each other. The truth +has never yet been ascertained in any trial by a church. The longer +the trial lasts, the obscurer is the truth. They will not believe +each other, even on oath; and one of the most celebrated ministers +of this country has publicly announced that there is no use in +answering a lie started by his own church; that if he does answer +it--if he does kill it--forty more lies will come to the funeral. + +In this connection we must remember that the priests of one religion +never credit the miracles of another religion. Is this because +priests instinctively know priests? Now, when a Christian tells +a Buddhist some of the miracles of the Testament, the Buddhist +smiles. When a Buddhist tells a Christian the miracles performed +by Buddha, the Christian laughs. This reminds me of an incident. +A man told a most wonderful story. Everybody present expressed +surprise and astonishment, except one man. He said nothing; he +did not even change countenance. One who noticed that the story +had no effect on this man, said to him: "You do not seem to be +astonished in the least at this marvelous tale." The man replied, +"No; I am a liar myself." + +You see, I am not trying to answer individual ministers. I am +attacking the whole body of superstition. I am trying to kill the +entire dog, and I do not feel like wasting any time killing fleas +on that dog. When the dog dies, the fleas will be out of provisions, +and in that way we shall answer them all at once. + +So, I do not bother myself answering religious newspapers. In the +first place, they are not worth answering; and in the second place, +to answer would only produce a new crop of falsehoods. You know, +the editor of a religious newspaper, as a rule, is one who has +failed in the pulpit; and you can imagine the brains necessary to +edit a religious weekly from this fact. I have known some good +religious editors. By some I mean one. I do not say that there +are not others, but I do say I do not know them. I might add, +here, that the one I did know is dead. + +Since I have been in this city there have been some "replies" to +me. They have been almost idiotic. A Catholic priest asked me +how I had the impudence to differ with Newton. Newton, he says, +believed in a God; and I ask this Catholic priest how he has the +impudence to differ with Newton. Newton was a Protestant. This +simply shows the absurdity of using men's names for arguments. +This same priest proves the existence of God by a pagan orator. +Is it possible that God's last witness died with Cicero? If it is +necessary to believe in a God now, the witnesses ought to be on +hand now. + +Another man, pretending to answer me, quotes Le Conte, a geologist; +and according to this geologist we are "getting very near to the +splendors of the great white throne." Where is the great white +throne? Can any one, by studying geology, find the locality of +the great white throne? To what stratum does it belong? In what +geologic period was the great white throne formed? What on earth +has geology to do with the throne of God? + +The truth is, there can be no reply to the argument that man should +be governed by his reason; that he should depend upon observation +and experience; that he should use the faculties he has for his +own benefit, and the benefit of his fellow-man. There is no answer. +It is not within the power of man to substantiate the supernatural. +It is beyond the power of evidence. + +_Question_. Why do the theological seminaries find it difficult +to get students? + +_Answer_. I was told last spring, at New Haven, that the "theologs," +as they call the young men there being fitted for the ministry, +were not regarded as intellectual by all the other students. The +orthodox pulpit has no rewards for genius. It has rewards only for +stupidity, for belief--not for investigation, not for thought; and +the consequence is that young men of talent avoid the pulpit. I +think I heard the other day that of all the students at Harvard +only nine are preparing for the ministry. The truth is, the ministry +is not regarded as an intellectual occupation. The average church +now consists of women and children. Men go to please their wives, +or stay at home and subscribe to please their wives; and the wives +are beginning to think, and many of them are staying at home. Many +of them now prefer the theatre or the opera or the park or the +seashore or the forest or the companionship of their husbands and +children at home. + +_Question_. How does the religious state of California compare +with the rest of the Union? + +_Answer_. I find that sensible people everywhere are about the +same, and the proportion of Freethinkers depends on the proportion +of sensible folks. I think that California has her full share of +sensible people. I find everywhere the best people and the brightest +people--the people with the most heart and the best brain--all +tending toward free thought. Of course, a man of brain cannot +believe the miracles of the Old and New Testaments. A man of heart +cannot believe in the doctrine of eternal pain. We have found that +other religions are like ours, with precisely the same basis, the +same idiotic miracles, the same Christ or Saviour. It will hardly +do to say that all others like ours are false, and ours the only +true one, when others substantially like it are thousands of years +older. We have at last found that a religion is simply an effort +on the part of man to account for what he sees, what he experiences, +what he feels, what he fears, and what he hopes. Every savage has +his philosophy. That is his religion and his science. + +The religions of to-day are the sciences of the past; and it may +be that the sciences of to-day will be the religions of the future, +and that other sciences will be as far beyond them as the science +of to-day is beyond the religion of to-day. As a rule, religion +is a sanctified mistake, and heresy a slandered fact. In other +words, the human mind grows--and as it grows it abandons the old, +and the old gets its revenge by maligning the new. + +--_The San Franciscan_, San Francisco, October 4, 1884. + + +BLAINE'S DEFEAT. + +_Question_. Colonel, the fact that you took no part in the late +campaign, is a subject for general comment, and knowing your former +enthusiastic advocacy and support of Blaine, the people are somewhat +surprised, and would like to know why? + +_Answer_. In the first place, it was generally supposed that Blaine +needed no help. His friends were perfectly confident. They counted +on a very large Catholic support. The Irish were supposed to be +spoiling to vote for Blaine and Logan. All the Protestant ministers +were also said to be solid for the ticket. Under these circumstances +it was hardly prudent for me to say much. + +I was for Blaine in 1876. In 1880 I was for Garfield, and in 1884 +I was for Gresham or Harlan. I believed then and I believe now +that either one of these men could have been elected. Blaine is +an exceedingly able man, but he made some mistakes and some very +unfortunate utterances. I took no part in the campaign; first, +because there was no very important issue, no great principle at +stake, and second, I thought that I had done enough, and, third, +because I wanted to do something else. + +_Question_. What, in your opinion, were the causes for Blaine's +defeat? + +_Answer_. First, because of dissension in the party. Second, +because party ties have grown weak. Third, the Prohibition vote. +Fourth, the Delmonico dinner--too many rich men. Fifth, the Rev. +Dr. Burchard with his Rum, Romanism and Rebellion. Sixth, giving +too much attention to Ohio and not enough to New York. Seventh, +the unfortunate remark of Mr. Blaine, that "the State cannot get +along without the Church." Eighth, the weakness of the present +administration. Ninth, the abandonment by the party of the colored +people of the South. Tenth, the feeling against monopolies, and +not least, a general desire for a change. + +_Question_. What, in your opinion, will be the result of Cleveland's +election and administration upon the general political and business +interests of the country? + +_Answer_. The business interests will take care of themselves. +A dollar has the instinct of self-preservation largely developed. +The tariff will take care of itself. No State is absolutely for +free trade. In each State there is an exception. The exceptions +will combine, as they always have. Michigan will help Pennsylvania +take care of iron, if Pennsylvania will help Michigan take care of +salt and lumber. Louisiana will help Pennsylvania and Michigan if +they help her take care of sugar. Colorado, California and Ohio +will help the other States if they will help them about wool--and +so I might make a tour of the States, ending with Vermont and maple +sugar. I do not expect that Cleveland will do any great harm. +The Democrats want to stay in power, and that desire will give +security for good behavior. + +_Question_. Will he listen to or grant any demands made of him by +the alleged Independent Republicans of New York, either in his +appointments or policies? + +_Answer_. Of this I know nothing. The Independents--from what I +know of them--will be too modest to claim credit or to ask office. +They were actuated by pure principle. They did what they did to +purify the party, so that they could stay in it. Now that it has +been purified they will remain, and hate the Democratic party as +badly as ever. I hardly think that Cleveland would insult their +motives by offering loaves and fishes. All they desire is the +approval of their own consciences. + +--_The Commonwealth_, Topeka, Kansas, November 21, 1884. + + +BLAINE'S DEFEAT. + +_Question_. How do you account for the defeat of Mr. Blaine? + +_Answer_. How do I account for the defeat of Mr. Blaine? I will +answer: St. John, the Independents, Burchard, Butler and Cleveland +did it. The truth is that during the war a majority of the people, +counting those in the South, were opposed to putting down the +Rebellion by force. It is also true that when the Proclamation of +Emancipation was issued a majority of the people, counting the +whole country, were opposed to it, and it is also true that when +the colored people were made citizens a majority of the people, +counting the whole country, were opposed to it. + +Now, while, in my judgment, an overwhelming majority of the whole +people have honestly acquiesced in the result of the war, and are +now perfectly loyal to the Union, and have also acquiesced in the +abolition of slavery, I doubt very much whether they are really in +favor of giving the colored man the right to vote. Of course they +have not the power now to take that right away, but they feel +anything but kindly toward the party that gave the colored man that +right. That is the only result of the war that is not fully accepted +by the South and by many Democrats of the North. + +Another thing, the Republican party was divided--divided too by +personal hatreds. The party was greatly injured by the decision +of the Supreme Court in which the Civil Rights Bill was held void. +Now, a great many men who kept with the Republican party, did so +because they believed that that party would protect the colored +man in the South, but as soon as the Court decided that all the +laws passed were unconstitutional, these men felt free to vote for +the other side, feeling that it would make no difference. They +reasoned this way: If the Republican party cannot defend the +colored people, why make a pretence that excites hatred on one side +and disarms the other? If the colored people have to depend upon +the State for protection, and the Federal Government cannot interfere, +why say any more about it? + +I think that these men made a mistake and our party made a mistake +in accepting without protest a decision that was far worse than +the one delivered in the case of Dred Scott. By accepting this +decision the most important issue was abandoned. The Republican +party must take the old ground that it is the duty of the Federal +Government to protect the citizens, and that it cannot simply leave +that duty to the State. It must see to it that the State performs +that duty. + +_Question_. Have you seen the published report that Dorsey claims +to have paid you one hundred thousand dollars for your services in +the Star Route Cases? + +_Answer_. I have seen the report, but Dorsey never said anything +like that. + +_Question_. Is there no truth in the statement, then? + +_Answer_. Well, Dorsey never said anything of the kind. + +_Question_. Then you do not deny that you received such an enormous +fee? + +_Answer_. All I say is that Dorsey did not say I did.* + +--_The Commercial_, Louisville, Kentucky, October 24, 1884. + +[* Col. Ingersoll has been so criticised and maligned for defending +Mr. Dorsey in the Star Route cases, and so frequently charged with +having received an enormous fee, that I think it but simple justice +to his memory to say that he received no such fee, and that the +ridiculously small sums he did receive were much more than offset +by the amount he had to pay as indorser of Mr. Dorsey's paper. +--C. F. FARRELL.] + + +PLAGIARISM AND POLITICS. + +_Question_. What have you to say about the charges published in +this morning's _Herald_ to the effect that you copied your lecture +about "Mistakes of Moses" from a chapter bearing the same title in +a book called Hittell's "Evidences against Christianity"? + +_Answer_. All I have to say is that the charge is utterly false. +I will give a thousand dollars reward to any one who will furnish +a book published before my lecture, in which that lecture can be +found. It is wonderful how malicious the people are who love their +enemies. This charge is wholly false, as all others of like nature +are. I do not have to copy the writings of others. The Christians +do not seem to see that they are constantly complimenting me by +saying that what I write is so good that I must have stolen it. +Poor old orthodoxy! + +_Question_. What is your opinion of the incoming administration, +and how will it affect the country? + +_Answer_. I feel disposed to give Cleveland a chance. If he does +the fair thing, then it is the duty of all good citizens to say +so. I do not expect to see the whole country go to destruction +because the Democratic party is in power. Neither do I believe +that business is going to suffer on that account. The times are +hard, and I fear will be much harder, but they would have been +substantially the same if Blaine had been elected. I wanted the +Republican party to succeed and fully expected to see Mr. Blaine +President, but I believe in making the best of what has happened. +I want no office, I want good government--wise legislation. I +believe in protection, but I want the present tariff reformed and +I hope the Democrats will be wise enough to do so. + +_Question_. How will the Democratic victory affect the colored +people in the South? + +_Answer_. Certainly their condition will not be worse than it has +been. The Supreme Court decided that the Civil Rights Bill was +unconstitutional and that the Federal Government cannot interfere. +That was a bad decision and our party made a mistake in not protesting +against it. I believe it to be the duty of the Federal Government +to protect all its citizens, at home as well as abroad. My hope +is that there will be a division in the Democratic party. That +party has something now to divide. At last it has a bone, and +probably the fighting will commence. I hope that some new issue +will take color out of politics, something about which both white +and colored may divide. Of course nothing would please me better +than to see the Democratic party become great and grand enough to +give the colored people their rights. + +_Question_. Why did you not take part in the campaign? + +_Answer_. Well, I was afraid of frightening the preachers away. +I might have done good by scaring one, but I did not know Burchard +until it was too late. Seriously, I did not think that I was +needed. I supposed that Blaine had a walkover, that he was certain +to carry New York. I had business of my own to attend to and did +not want to interfere with the campaign. + +_Question_. What do you think of the policy of nominating Blaine +in 1888, as has been proposed? + +_Answer_. I think it too early to say what will be done in 1888. +Parties do not exist for one man. Parties have certain ends in +view and they choose men as instruments to accomplish these ends. +Parties belong to principles, not persons. No party can afford to +follow anybody. If in 1888 Mr. Blaine should appear to be the best +man for the party then he will be nominated, otherwise not. I know +nothing about any intention to nominate him again and have no idea +whether he has that ambition. The Whig party was intensely loyal +to Henry Clay and forgot the needs of the country, and allowed the +Democrats to succeed with almost unknown men. Parties should not +belong to persons, but persons should belong to parties. Let us +not be too previous--let us wait. + +_Question_. What do you think of the course pursued by the Rev. +Drs. Ball and Burchard? + +_Answer_. In politics the preacher is somewhat dangerous. He has +a standard of his own; he has queer ideas of evidence, great reliance +on hearsay; he is apt to believe things against candidates, just +because he wants to. The preacher thinks that all who differ with +him are instigated by the Devil--that their intentions are evil, +and that when they behave themselves they are simply covering the +poison with sugar. It would have been far better for the country +if Mr. Ball had kept still. I do not pretend to say that his +intentions were not good. He likely thought it his duty to lift +a warning voice, to bawl aloud and to spare not, but I think he +made a mistake, and he now probably thinks so himself. Mr. Burchard +was bound to say a smart thing. It sounded well, and he allowed +his ears to run away with his judgment. As a matter of fact, there +is no connection between rum and Romanism. Catholic countries do +not use as much alcohol as Protestant. England has far more +drunkards than Spain. Scotland can discount Italy or Portugal in +good, square drinking. So there is no connection between Romanism +and rebellion. Ten times as many Methodists and twenty times as +many Baptists went into the Rebellion as Catholics. Thousands of +Catholics fought as bravely as Protestants for the preservation of +the Union. No doubt Mr. Burchard intended well. He thought he +was giving Blaine a battle-cry that would send consternation into +the hearts of the opposition. My opinion is that in the next +campaign the preachers will not be called to the front. Of course +they have the same right to express their views that other people +have, but other people have the right to avoid the responsibility +of appearing to agree with them. I think though that it is about +time to let up on Burchard. He has already unloaded on the Lord. + +_Question_. Do you think Cleveland will put any Southern men in +his Cabinet? + +_Answer_. I do. Nothing could be in worse taste than to ignore +the section that gave him three-fourths of his vote. The people +have put the Democratic party in power. They intended to do what +they did, and why should the South not be recognized? Garland +would make a good Attorney-General; Lamar has the ability to fill +any position in the Cabinet. I could name several others well +qualified, and I suppose that two or three Southern men will be in +the Cabinet. If they are good enough to elect a President they +are good enough to be selected by a President. + +_Question_. What do you think of Mr. Conkling's course? + +_Answer_. Mr. Conkling certainly had the right to keep still. He +was under no obligation to the party. The Republican papers have +not tried to secure his services. He has been very generally and +liberally denounced ever since his quarrel with Mr. Garfield, and +it is only natural to resent what a man feels to be an injustice. +I suppose he has done what he honestly thought was, under the +circumstances, his duty. I believe him to be a man of stainless +integrity, and he certainly has as much independence of character +as one man can carry. It is time to put the party whip away. +People can be driven from, but not to, the Republican party. If we +expect to win in 1888 we must welcome recruits. + +--_The Plain Dealer_, Cleveland, Ohio, Dec. 11, 1884. + + +RELIGIOUS PREJUDICE. + +_Question_. Will a time ever come when political campaigns will +be conducted independently of religious prejudice? + +_Answer_. As long as men are prejudiced, they will probably be +religious, and certainly as long as they are religious they will +be prejudiced, and every religionist who imagines the next world +infinitely more important than this, and who imagines that he gets +his orders from God instead of from his own reason, or from his +fellow-citizens, and who thinks that he should do something for +the glory of God instead of for the benefit of his fellow-citizens +--just as long as they believe these things, just so long their +prejudices will control their votes. Every good, ignorant, orthodox +Christian places his Bible above laws and constitutions. Every +good, sincere and ignorant Catholic puts pope above king and +president, as well as above the legally expressed will of a majority +of his countrymen. Every Christian believes God to be the source +of all authority. I believe that the authority to govern comes +from the consent of the governed. Man is the source of power, and +to protect and increase human happiness should be the object of +government. I think that religious prejudices are growing weaker +because religious belief is growing weaker. And these prejudices +--should men ever become really civilized--will finally fade away. +I think that a Presbyterian, to-day, has no more prejudice against +an Atheist than he has against a Catholic. A Catholic does not +dislike an Infidel any more than he does a Presbyterian, and I +believe, to-day, that most of the Presbyterians would rather see +and Atheist President than a pronounced Catholic. + +_Question_. Is Agnosticism gaining ground in the United States? + +_Answer_. Of course, there are thousands and thousands of men who +have now advanced intellectually to the point of perceiving the +limit of human knowledge. In other words, at last they are beginning +to know enough to know what can and cannot be known. Sensible men +know that nobody knows whether an infinite God exists or not. +Sensible men know that an infinite personality cannot, by human +testimony, be established. Sensible men are giving up trying to +answer the questions of origin and destiny, and are paying more +attention to what happens between these questions--that is to say, +to this world. Infidelity increases as knowledge increases, as +fear dies, and as the brain develops. After all, it is a question +of intelligence. Only cunning performs a miracle, only ignorance +believes it. + +_Question_. Do you think that evolution and revealed religion are +compatible--that is to say, can a man be an evolutionist and a +Christian? + +_Answer_. Evolution and Christianity may be compatible, provided +you take the ground that Christianity is only one of the links in +the chain, one of the phases of civilization. But if you mean by +Christianity what is generally understood, of course that and +evolution are absolutely incompatible. Christianity pretends to +be not only the truth, but, so far as religion is concerned, the +whole truth. Christianity pretends to give a history of religion +and a prophecy of destiny. As a philosophy, it is an absolute +failure. As a history, it is false. There is no possible way by +which Darwin and Moses can be harmonized. There is an inexpressible +conflict between Christianity and Science, and both cannot long +inhabit the same brain. You cannot harmonize evolution and the +atonement. The survival of the fittest does away with original sin. + +_Question_. From your knowledge of the religious tendency in the +United States, how long will orthodox religion be popular? + +_Answer_. I do not think that orthodox religion is popular to-day. +The ministers dare not preach the creed in all its naked deformity +and horror. They are endeavoring with the vines of sentiment to +cover up the caves and dens in which crawl the serpents of their +creed. Very few ministers care now to speak of eternal pain. They +leave out the lake of fire and brimstone. They are not fond of +putting in the lips of Christ the loving words, "Depart from me, +ye cursed." The miracles are avoided. In short, what is known as +orthodoxy is already unpopular. Most ministers are endeavoring to +harmonize what they are pleased to call science and Christianity, +and nothing is now so welcome to the average Christian as some work +tending to show that, after all, Joshua was an astronomer. + +_Question_. What section of the United States, East, West, North, +or South, is the most advanced in liberal religious ideas? + +_Answer_. That section of the country in which there is the most +intelligence is the most liberal. That section of the country +where there is the most ignorance is the most prejudiced. The +least brain is the most orthodox. There possibly is no more +progressive city in the world, no more liberal, than Boston. +Chicago is full of liberal people. So is San Francisco. The brain +of New York is liberal. Every town, every city, is liberal in the +precise proportion that it is intelligent. + +_Question_. Will the religion of humanity be the religion of the +future? + +_Answer_. Yes; it is the only religion now. All other is +superstition. What they call religion rests upon a supposed relation +between man and God. In what they call religion man is asked to +do something for God. As God wants nothing, and can by no possibility +accept anything, such a religion is simply superstition. Humanity +is the only possible religion. Whoever imagines that he can do +anything for God is mistaken. Whoever imagines that he can add to +his happiness in the next world by being useless in this, is also +mistaken. And whoever thinks that any God cares how he cuts his +hair or his clothes, or what he eats, or whether he fasts, or rings +a bell, or puts holy water on his breast, or counts beads, or shuts +his eyes and says words to the clouds, is laboring under a great +mistake. + +_Question_. A man in the Swaim Court Martial case was excluded as +a witness because he was an Atheist. Do you think the law in the +next decade will permit the affirmative oath? + +_Answer_. If belief affected your eyes, your ears, any of your +senses, or your memory, then, of course, no man ought to be a +witness who had not the proper belief. But unless it can be shown +that Atheism interferes with the sight, the hearing, or the memory, +why should justice shut the door to truth? + +In most of the States of this Union I could not give testimony. +Should a man be murdered before my eyes I could not tell a jury +who did it. Christianity endeavors to make an honest man an outlaw. +Christianity has such a contemptible opinion of human nature that +it does not believe a man can tell the truth unless frightened by +a belief in God. No lower opinion of the human race has ever been +expressed. + +_Question_. Do you think that bigotry would persecute now for +religious opinion's sake, if it were not for the law and the press? + +_Answer_. I think that the church would persecute to-day if it +had the power, just as it persecuted in the past. We are indebted +for nearly all our religious liberty to the hypocrisy of the church. +The church does not believe. Some in the church do, and if they +had the power, they would torture and burn as of yore. Give the +Presbyterian Church the power, and it would not allow an Infidel +to live. Give the Methodist Church the power and the result would +be the same. Give the Catholic Church the power--just the same. +No church in the United States would be willing that any other +church should have the power. The only men who are to be angels +in the next world are the ones who cannot be trusted with human +liberty in this; and the man who are destined to live forever in +hell are the only gentlemen with whom human liberty is safe. Why +should Christians refuse to persecute in this world, when their +God is going to in the next? + +--_Mail and Express_, New York, January 12, 1885. + + +CLEVELAND AND HIS CABINET. + +_Question_. What do you think of Mr. Cleveland's Cabinet? + +_Answer_. It is a very good Cabinet. Some objections have been +made to Mr. Lamar, but I think he is one of the very best. He is +a man of ability, of unquestioned integrity, and is well informed +on national affairs. Ever since he delivered his eulogy on the +life and services of Sumner, I have had great respect for Mr. Lamar. +He is far beyond most of his constituents, and has done much to +destroy the provincial prejudices of Mississippi. He will without +doubt make an excellent Secretary of the Interior. The South has +no better representative man, and I believe his appointment will, +in a little while, be satisfactory to the whole country. Bayard +stands high in his party, and will certainly do as well as his +immediate predecessor. Nothing could be better than the change in +the Department of Justice. Garland is an able lawyer, has been an +influential Senator and will, in my judgment, make an excellent +Attorney-General. The rest of the Cabinet I know little about, +but from what I hear I believe they are men of ability and that +they will discharge their duties well. Mr. Vilas has a great +reputation in Wisconsin, and is one of the best and most forcible +speakers in the country. + +_Question_. Will Mr. Cleveland, in your opinion, carry out the +civil service reform he professes to favor? + +_Answer_. I have no reason to suspect even that he will not. He +has promised to execute the law, and the promise is in words that +do not admit of two interpretations. Of course he is sincere. He +knows that this course will save him a world of trouble, and he +knows that it makes no difference about the politics of a copyist. +All the offices of importance will in all probability be filled by +Democrats. The President will not put himself in the power of his +opponents. If he is to be held responsible for the administration +he must be permitted to choose his own assistants. This is too +plain to talk about. Let us give Mr. Cleveland a fair show--and +let us expect success instead of failure. I admit that many +Presidents have violated their promises. There seems to be something +in the atmosphere of Washington that breeds promise and prevents +performance. I suppose it is some kind of political malarial +microbe. I hope that some political Pasteur will, one of these +days, discover the real disease so that candidates can be vaccinated +during the campaign. Until them, presidential promises will be +liable to a discount. + +_Question_. Is the Republican party dead? + +_Answer_. My belief is that the next President will be a Republican, +and that both houses will be Republican in 1889. Mr. Blaine was +defeated by an accident--by the slip of another man's tongue. But +it matters little what party is in power if the Government is +administered upon correct principles, and if the Democracy adopt +the views of the Republicans and carry out Republican measures, it +may be that they can keep in power--otherwise--otherwise. If the +Democrats carry out real Democratic measures, then their defeat is +certain. + +_Question_. Do you think that the era of good feeling between the +North and the South has set in with the appointment of ex-rebels +to the Cabinet? + +_Answer_. The war is over. The South failed. The Nation succeeded. +We should stop talking about South and North. We are one people, +and whether we agree or disagree one destiny awaits us. We cannot +divide. We must live together. We must trust each other. Confidence +begets confidence. The whole country was responsible for slavery. +Slavery was rebellion. Slavery is dead--so is rebellion. Liberty +has united the country and there is more real union, national +sentiment to-day, North and South, than ever before. + +_Question_. It is hinted that Mr. Tilden is really the power behind +the throne. Do you think so? + +_Answer_. I guess nobody has taken the hint. Of course Mr. Tilden +has retired from politics. The probability is that many Democrats +ask his advice, and some rely on his judgment. He is regarded as +a piece of ancient wisdom--a phenomenal persistence of the Jeffersonian +type--the connecting link with the framers, founders and fathers. +The power behind the throne is the power that the present occupant +supposes will determine who the next occupant shall be. + +_Question_. With the introduction of the Democracy into power, +what radical changes will take place in the Government, and what +will be the result? + +_Answer_. If the President carries out his inaugural promises +there will be no radical changes, and if he does not there will be +a very radical change at the next presidential election. The +inaugural is a very good Republican document. There is nothing in +it calculated to excite alarm. There is no dangerous policy +suggested--no conceited vagaries--nothing but a plain statement of +the situation and the duty of the Chief Magistrate as understood +by the President. I think that the inaugural surprised the Democrats +and the Republicans both, and if the President carries out the +program he has laid down he will surprise and pacify a large majority +of the American people. + +--_Mail and Express_, New York, March 10, 1885. + + +RELIGION, PROHIBITION, AND GEN. GRANT. + +_Question_. What do you think of prohibition, and what do you +think of its success in this State? + +_Answer_. Few people understand the restraining influence of +liberty. Moderation walks hand in hand with freedom. I do not +mean the freedom springing from the sudden rupture of restraint. +That kind of freedom usually rushes to extremes. + +People must be educated to take care of themselves, and this +education must commence in infancy. Self-restraint is the only +kind that can always be depended upon. Of course intemperance is +a great evil. It causes immense suffering--clothes wives and +children in rags, and is accountable for many crimes, particularly +those of violence. Laws to be of value must be honestly enforced. +Laws that sleep had better be dead. Laws to be enforced must be +honestly approved of and believed in by a large majority of the +people. Unpopular laws make hypocrites, perjurers and official +shirkers of duty. And if to the violation of such laws severe +penalties attach, they are rarely enforced. Laws that create +artificial crimes are the hardest to carry into effect. You can +never convince a majority of people that it is as bad to import +goods without paying the legal duty as to commit larceny. Neither +can you convince a majority of people that it is a crime or sin, +or even a mistake, to drink a glass of wine or beer. Thousands and +thousands of people in this State honestly believe that prohibition +is an interference with their natural rights, and they feel justified +in resorting to almost any means to defeat the law. + +In this way people become somewhat demoralized. It is unfortunate +to pass laws that remain unenforced on account of their unpopularity. +People who would on most subjects swear to the truth do not hesitate +to testify falsely on a prohibition trial. In addition to this, +every known device is resorted to, to sell in spite of the law, +and when some want to sell and a great many want to buy, considerable +business will be done, while there are fewer saloons and less liquor +sold in them. The liquor is poorer and the price is higher. The +consumer has to pay for the extra risk. More liquor finds its way +to homes, more men buy by the bottle and gallon. In old times +nearly everybody kept a little rum or whiskey on the sideboard. +The great Washingtonian temperance movement drove liquor out of +the home and increased the taverns and saloons. Now we are driving +liquor back to the homes. In my opinion there is a vast difference +between distilled spirits and the lighter drinks, such as wine and +beer. Wine is a fireside and whiskey a conflagration. These +lighter drinks are not unhealthful and do not, as I believe, create +a craving for stronger beverages. You will, I think, find it almost +impossible to enforce the present law against wine and beer. I +was told yesterday that there are some sixty places in Cedar Rapids +where whiskey is sold. It takes about as much ceremony to get a +drink as it does to join the Masons, but they seem to like the +ceremony. People seem to take delight in outwitting the State when +it does not involve the commission of any natural offence, and when +about to be caught, may not hesitate to swear falsely to the extent +of "don't remember," or "can't say positively," or "can't swear +whether it was whiskey or not." + +One great trouble in Iowa is that the politicians, or many of them +who openly advocate prohibition, are really opposed to it. They +want to keep the German vote, and they do not want to lose native +Republicans. They feel a "divided duty" to ride both horses. This +causes the contrast between their conversation and their speeches. +A few years ago I took dinner with a gentleman who had been elected +Governor of one of our States on the Prohibition ticket. We had +four kinds of wine during the meal, and a pony of brandy at the +end. Prohibition will never be a success until it prohibits the +Prohibitionists. And yet I most sincerely hope and believe that +the time will come when drunkenness shall have perished from the +earth. Let us cultivate the love of home. Let husbands and wives +and children be companions. Let them seek amusements together. +If it is a good place for father to go, it is a good place for +mother and the children. I believe that a home can be made more +attractive than a saloon. Let the boys and girls amuse themselves +at home--play games, study music, read interesting books, and let +the parents be their playfellows. The best temperance lecture, in +the fewest words, you will find in Victor Hugo's great novel "Les +Miserables." The grave digger is asked to take a drink. He refuses +and gives this reason: "The hunger of my family is the enemy of +my thirst." + +_Question_. Many people wonder why you are out of politics. Will +you give your reasons? + +_Answer_. A few years ago great questions had to be settled. The +life of the nation was at stake. Later the liberty of millions of +slaves depended upon the action of the Government. Afterward +reconstruction and the rights of citizens pressed themselves upon +the people for solution. And last, the preservation of national +honor and credit. These questions did not enter into the last +campaign. They had all been settled, and properly settled, with +the one exception of the duty of the nation to protect the colored +citizens. The Supreme Court settled that, at least for a time, +and settled it wrong. But the Republican party submitted to the +civil rights decision, and so, as between the great parties, that +question did not arise. This left only two questions--protection +and office. But as a matter of fact, all Republicans were not for +our present system of protection, and all Democrats were not against +it. On that question each party was and is divided. On the other +question--office--both parties were and are in perfect harmony. +Nothing remains now for the Democrats to do except to give a +"working" definition of "offensive partisanship." + +_Question_. Do you think that the American people are seeking +after truth, or do they want to be amused? + +_Answer_. We have all kinds. Thousands are earnestly seeking for +the truth. They are looking over the old creeds, they are studying +the Bible for themselves, they have the candor born of courage, +they are depending upon themselves instead of on the clergy. They +have found out that the clergy do not know; that their sources of +information are not reliable; that, like the politicians, many +ministers preach one way and talk another. The doctrine of eternal +pain has driven millions from the church. People with good hearts +cannot get consolation out of that cruel lie. The ministers +themselves are getting ashamed to call that doctrine "the tidings +of great joy." The American people are a serious people. They +want to know the truth. They fell that whatever the truth may be +they have the courage to hear it. The American people also have +a sense of humor. They like to see old absurdities punctured and +solemn stupidity held up to laughter. They are, on the average, +the most intelligent people on the earth. They can see the point. +Their wit is sharp, quick and logical. Nothing amuses them more +that to see the mask pulled from the face of sham. The average +American is generous, intelligent, level-headed, manly, and good- +natured. + +_Question_. What, in your judgment, is the source of the greatest +trouble among men? + +_Answer_. Superstition. That has caused more agony, more tears, +persecution and real misery than all other causes combined. The +other name for superstition is ignorance. When men learn that all +sin is a mistake, that all dishonesty is a blunder, that even +intelligent selfishness will protect the rights of others, there +will be vastly more happiness in this world. Shakespeare says that +"There is no darkness but ignorance." Sometime man will learn that +when he steals from another, he robs himself--that the way to be +happy is to make others so, and that it is far better to assist +his fellow-man than to fast, say prayers, count beads or build +temples to the Unknown. Some people tell us that selfishness is +the only sin, but selfishness grows in the soil of ignorance. +After all, education is the great lever, and the only one capable +of raising mankind. People ignorant of their own rights are ignorant +of the rights of others. Every tyrant is the slave of ignorance. + +_Question_. How soon do you think we would have the millennium if +every person attended strictly to his own business? + +_Answer_. Now, if every person were intelligent enough to know +his own business--to know just where his rights ended and the rights +of others commenced, and then had the wisdom and honesty to act +accordingly, we should have a very happy world. Most people like +to control the conduct of others. They love to write rules, and +pass laws for the benefit of their neighbors, and the neighbors +are pretty busy at the same business. People, as a rule, think +that they know the business of other people better than they do +their own. A man watching others play checkers or chess always +thinks he sees better moves than the players make. When all people +attend to their own business they will know that a part of their +own business is to increase the happiness of others. + +_Question_. What is causing the development of this country? + +_Answer_. Education, the free exchange of ideas, inventions by +which the forces of nature become our servants, intellectual +hospitality, a willingness to hear the other side, the richness of +our soil, the extent of our territory, the diversity of climate +and production, our system of government, the free discussion of +political questions, our social freedom, and above all, the fact +that labor is honorable. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of the religious tendency of the +people of this country? + +_Answer_. Using the word religion in its highest and best sense, +the people are becoming more religious. We are far more religious +--using the word in its best sense--than when we believed in human +slavery, but we are not as orthodox as we were then. We have more +principle and less piety. We care more for the right and less for +the creed. The old orthodox dogmas are mouldy. You will find moss +on their backs. They are only brought out when a new candidate +for the ministry is to be examined. Only a little while ago in +New York a candidate for the Presbyterian pulpit was examined and +the following is a part of the examination: + +_Question_. "Do you believe in eternal punishment, as set forth +in the confession of faith?" + +_Answer_. (With some hesitation) "Yes, I do." + +_Question_. "Have you preached on that subject lately?" + +_Answer_. "No. I prepared a sermon on hell, in which I took the +ground that the punishment of the wicked will be endless, and have +it with me." + +_Question_. "Did you deliver it?" + +_Answer_. "No. I thought that my congregation would not care to +hear it. The doctrine is rather unpopular where I have been +preaching, and I was afraid I might do harm, so I have not delivered +it yet." + +_Question_. "But you believe in eternal damnation, do you not?" + +_Answer_. "O yes, with all my heart." + +He was admitted, and the admission proves the dishonesty of the +examiners and the examined. The new version of the Old and New +Testaments has done much to weaken confidence in the doctrine of +inspiration. It has occurred to a good many that if God took the +pains to inspire men to write the Bible, he ought to have inspired +others to translate it correctly. The general tendency today is +toward science, toward naturalism, toward what is called Infidelity, +but is in fact fidelity. Men are in a transition state, and the +people, on the average, have more real good, sound sense to-day +than ever before. The church is losing its power for evil. The +old chains are wearing out, and new ones are not being made. The +tendency is toward intellectual freedom, and that means the final +destruction of the orthodox bastille. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of General Grant as he stands +before the people to-day? + +_Answer_. I have always regarded General Grant as the greatest +soldier this continent has produced. He is to-day the most +distinguished son of the Republic. The people have the greatest +confidence in his ability, his patriotism and his integrity. The +financial disaster impoverished General Grant, but he did not stain +the reputation of the grand soldier who led to many victories the +greatest army that ever fought for the liberties of man. + +--_Iowa State Register_, May 23, 1885. + + +HELL OR SHEOL AND OTHER SUBJECTS. + +_Question_. Colonel, have you read the revised Testament? + +_Answer_. Yes, but I don't believe the work has been fairly done. +The clergy are not going to scrape the butter off their own bread. +The clergy are offensive partisans, and those of each denomination +will interpret the Scriptures their way. No Baptist minister would +countenance a "Revision" that favored sprinkling, and no Catholic +priest would admit that any version would be correct that destroyed +the dogma of the "real presence." So I might go through all the +denominations. + +_Question_. Why was the word sheol introduced in place of hell, +and how do you like the substitute? + +_Answer_. The civilized world has outgrown the vulgar and brutal +hell of their fathers and founders of the churches. The clergy +are ashamed to preach about sulphurous flames and undying worms. +The imagination of the world has been developed, the heart has +grown tender, and the old dogma of eternal pain shocks all civilized +people. It is becoming disgraceful either to preach or believe in +such a beastly lie. The clergy are beginning to think that it is +hardly manly to frighten children with a detected falsehood. Sheol +is a great relief. It is not so hot as the old place. The nights +are comfortable, and the society is quite refined. The worms are +dead, and the air reasonably free from noxious vapors. It is a +much worse word to hold a revival with, but much better for every +day use. It will hardly take the place of the old word when people +step on tacks, put up stoves, or sit on pins; but for use at church +fairs and mite societies it will do about as well. We do not need +revision; excision is what we want. The barbarism should be taken +out of the Bible. Passages upholding polygamy, wars of extermination, +slavery, and religious persecution should not be attributed to a +perfect God. The good that is in the Bible will be saved for man, +and man will be saved from the evil that is in that book. Why +should we worship in God what we detest in man? + +_Question_. Do you think the use of the word sheol will make any +difference to the preachers? + +_Answer_. Of course it will make no difference with Talmage. He +will make sheol just as hot and smoky and uncomfortable as hell, +but the congregations will laugh instead of tremble. The old +shudder has gone. Beecher had demolished hell before sheol was +adopted. According to his doctrine of evolution hell has been +slowly growing cool. The cindered souls do not even perspire. +Sheol is nothing to Mr. Beecher but a new name for an old mistake. +As for the effect it will have on Heber Newton, I cannot tell, +neither can he, until he asks his bishop. There are people who +believe in witches and madstones and fiat money, and centuries +hence it may be that people will exist who will believe as firmly +in hell as Dr. Shedd does now. + +_Question_. What about Beecher's sermons on "Evolution"? + +_Answer_. Beecher's sermons on "Evolution" will do good. Millions +of people believe that Mr. Beecher knows at least as much as the +other preachers, and if he regards the atonement as a dogma with +a mistake for a foundation, they may conclude that the whole system +is a mistake. But whether Mr. Beecher is mistaken or not, people +know that honesty is a good thing, that gratitude is a virtue, that +industry supports the world, and that whatever they believe about +religion they are bound by every conceivable obligation to be just +and generous. Mr. Beecher can no more succeed in reconciling +science and religion, than he could in convincing the world that +triangles and circles are exactly the same. There is the same +relation between science and religion that there is between astronomy +and astrology, between alchemy and chemistry, between orthodoxy +and common sense. + +_Question_. Have you read Miss Cleveland's book? She condemns +George Eliot's poetry on the ground that it has no faith in it, +nothing beyond. Do you imagine she would condemn Burns or Shelley +for that reason? + +_Answer_. I have not read Miss Cleveland's book; but, if the author +condemns the poetry of George Eliot, she has made a mistake. There +is no poem in our language more beautiful than "The Lovers," and +none loftier or purer than "The Choir Invisible." There is no +poetry in the "beyond." The poetry is here--here in this world, +where love is in the heart. The poetry of the beyond is too far +away, a little too general. Shelley's "Skylark" was in our sky, +the daisy of Burns grew on our ground, and between that lark and +that daisy is room for all the real poetry of the earth. + +--_Evening Record_, Boston, Mass., 1885. + + +INTERVIEWING, POLITICS AND SPIRITUALISM. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of the peculiar institution of +American journalism known as interviewing? + +_Answer_. If the interviewers are fair, if they know how to ask +questions of a public nature, if they remember what is said, or +write it at the time, and if the interviewed knows enough to answer +questions in a way to amuse or instruct the public, then interviewing +is a blessing. But if the representative of the press asks questions, +either impudent or unimportant, and the answers are like the +questions, then the institution is a failure. When the journalist +fails to see the man he wishes to interview, or when the man refuses +to be interviewed, and thereupon the aforesaid journalist writes +up an interview, doing the talking for both sides, the institution +is a success. Such interviews are always interesting, and, as a +rule, the questions are to the point and the answers perfectly +responsive. There is probably a little too much interviewing, and +to many persons are asked questions upon subjects about which they +know nothing. Mr. Smith makes some money in stocks or pork, visits +London, and remains in that city for several weeks. On his return +he is interviewd as to the institutions, laws and customs of the +British Empire. Of course such an interview is exceedingly +instructive. Lord Affanaff lands at the dock in North River, is +driven to a hotel in a closed carriage, is interviewed a few minutes +after by a representative of the _Herald_ as to his view of the +great Republic based upon what he has seen. Such an interview is +also instructive. Interviews with candidates as to their chances +of election is another favorite way of finding out their honest +opinion, but people who rely on those interviews generally lose +their bets. The most interesting interviews are generally denied. +I have been expecting to see an interview with the Rev. Dr. Leonard +on the medicinal properties of champagne and toast, or the relation +between old ale and modern theology, and as to whether prohibition +prohibits the Prohibitionists. + +_Question_. Have you ever been misrepresented in interviews? + +_Answer_. Several times. As a general rule, the clergy have +selected these misrepresentations when answering me. I never blamed +them, because it is much easier to answer something I did not say. +Most reporters try to give my real words, but it is difficult to +remember. They try to give the substance, and in that way change +or destroy the sense. You remember the Frenchman who translated +Shakespeare's great line in Macbeth--"Out, brief candle!"--into +"Short candle, go out!." Another man, trying to give the last +words of Webster--"I still live"--said "I aint dead yit." So that +when they try to do their best they often make mistakes. Now and +then interviews appear not one word of which I ever said, and +sometimes when I really had an interview, another one has appeared. +But generally the reporters treat me well, and most of them succeed +in telling about what I said. Personally I have no cause for +complaint. + +_Question_. What do you think of the administration of President +Cleveland? + +_Answer_. I know but very little about it. I suppose that he is +doing the best he can. He appears to be carrying out in good faith +the principles laid down in the platform on which he was elected. +He is having a hard road to travel. To satisfy an old Democrat +and a new mugwump is a difficult job. Cleveland appears to be the +owner of himself--appears to be a man of great firmness and force +of character. The best thing that I have heard about him is that +he went fishing on Sunday. We have had so much mock morality, dude +deportment and hypocritical respectability in public office, that +a man with courage enough to enjoy himself on Sunday is a refreshing +and healthy example. All things considered I do not see but that +Cleveland is doing well enough. The attitude of the administration +toward the colored people is manly and fair so far as I can see. + +_Question_. Are you still a Republican in political belief? + +_Answer_. I believe that this is a Nation. I believe in the +equality of all men before the law, irrespective of race, religion +or color. I believe that there should be a dollar's worth of silver +in a silver dollar. I believe in a free ballot and a fair count. +I believe in protecting those industries, and those only, that need +protection. I believe in unrestricted coinage of gold and silver. +I believe in the rights of the State, the rights of the citizen, +and the sovereignty of the Nation. I believe in good times, good +health, good crops, good prices, good wages, good food, good clothes +and in the absolute and unqualified liberty of thought. If such +belief makes a Republican, than that is what I am. + +_Question_. Do you approve of John Sherman's policy in the present +campaign with reference to the bloody shirt, which reports of his +speeches show that he is waving? + +_Answer_. I have not read Senator Sherman's speech. It seems to +me that there is a better feeling between the North and South than +ever before--better than at any time since the Revolutionary war. +I believe in cultivating that feeling, and in doing and saying what +we can to contribute to its growth. We have hated long enough and +fought enough. The colored people never have been well treated +but they are being better treated now than ever before. It takes +a long time to do away with prejudices that were based upon religion +and rascality--that is to say, inspiration and interest. We must +remember that slavery was the crime of the whole country. Now, if +Senator Sherman has made a speech calculated to excite the hatreds +and prejudices of the North and South, I think that he has made a +mistake. I do not say that he has made such a speech, because I +have not read it. The war is over--it ended at Appomattox. Let +us hope that the bitterness born of the conflict died out forever +at Riverside. The people are tired almost to death of the old +speeches. They have been worn out and patched, and even the patches +are threadbare. The Supreme Court decided the Civil Rights Bill +to be unconstitutional, and the Republican party submitted. I +regarded the decision as monstrous, but the Republican party when +in power said nothing and did nothing. I most sincerely hope that +the Democratic party will protect the colored people at least as +well as we did when we were in power. But I am out of politics +and intend to keep politics out of me. + +_Question_. We have been having the periodical revival of interest +in Spiritualism. What do you think of "Spiritualism," as it is +popularly termed? + +_Answer_. I do not believe in the supernatural. One who does not +believe in gods would hardly believe in ghosts. I am not a believer +in any of the "wonders" and "miracles" whether ancient or modern. +There may be spirits, but I do not believe there are. They may +communicate with some people, but thus far they have been successful +in avoiding me. Of course, I know nothing for certain on the +subject. I know a great many excellent people who are thoroughly +convinced of the truth of Spiritualism. Christians laugh at the +"miracles" to-day, attested by folks they know, but believe the +miracles of long ago, attested by folks that they did not know. +This is one of the contradictions in human nature. Most people +are willing to believe that wonderful things happened long ago and +will happen again in the far future; with them the present is the +only time in which nature behaves herself with becoming sobriety. + +In old times nature did all kinds of juggling tricks, and after a +long while will do some more, but now she is attending strictly to +business, depending upon cause and effect. + +_Question_. Who, in your opinion, is the greatest leader of the +"opposition" yclept the Christian religion? + +_Answer_. I suppose that Mr. Beecher is the greatest man in the +pulpit, but he thinks more of Darwin than he does of David and has +an idea that the Old Testament is just a little too old. He has +put evolution in the place of the atonement--has thrown away the +Garden of Eden, snake, apples and all, and is endeavoring to save +enough of the orthodox wreck to make a raft. I know of no other +genius in the pulpit. There are plenty of theological doctors and +bishops and all kinds of titled humility in the sacred profession, +but men of genius are scarce. All the ministers, except Messrs. +Moody and Jones, are busy explaining away the contradiction between +inspiration and demonstration. + +_Question_. What books would you recommend for the perusal of a +young man of limited time and culture with reference to helping +him in the development of intellect and good character? + +_Answer_. The works of Darwin, Ernst Haeckel, Draper's "Intellectual +Development of Europe," Buckle's "History of Civilization in +England," Lecky's "History of European Morals," Voltaire's +"Philosophical Dictionary," Buechner's "Force and Matter," "The +History of the Christian Religion" by Waite; Paine's "Age of Reason," +D'Holbach's "System of Nature," and, above all, Shakespeare. Do +not forget Burns, Shelley, Dickens and Hugo. + +_Question_. Will you lecture the coming winter? + +_Answer_. Yes, about the same as usual. Woe is me if I preach +not my gospel. + +_Question_. Have you been invited to lecture in Europe? If so do +you intend to accept the "call"? + +_Answer_. Yes, often. The probability is that I shall go to +England and Australia. I have not only had invitations but most +excellent offers from both countries. There is, however, plenty +to do here. This is the best country in the world and our people +are eager to hear the other side. + +The old kind of preaching is getting superannuated. It lags +superfluous in the pulpit. Our people are outgrowing the cruelties +and absurdities of the ancient Jews. The idea of hell has become +shocking and vulgar. Eternal punishment is eternal injustice. It +is infinitely infamous. Most ministers are ashamed to preach the +doctrine, and the congregations are ashamed to hear it preached. +It is the essence of savagery. + +--_Plain Dealer_, Cincinnati, Ohio, September 5, 1885. + + +MY BELIEF. + +_Question_. It is said that in the past four or five years you +have changed or modified your views upon the subject of religion; +is this so? + +_Answer_. It is not so. The only change, if that can be called +a change, is, that I am more perfectly satisfied that I am right-- +satisfied that what is called orthodox religion is a simple +fabrication of mistaken men; satisfied that there is no such thing +as an inspired book and never will be; satisfied that a miracle +never was and never will be performed; satisfied that no human +being knows whether there is a God or not, whether there is another +life or not; satisfied that the scheme of atonement is a mistake, +that the innocent cannot, by suffering for the guilty, atone for +the guilt; satisfied that the doctrine that salvation depends on +belief, is cruel and absurd; satisfied that the doctrine of eternal +punishment is infamously false; satisfied that superstition is of +no use to the human race; satisfied that humanity is the only true +and real religion. + +No, I have not modified my views. I detect new absurdities every +day in the popular belief. Every day the whole thing becomes more +and more absurd. Of course there are hundreds and thousands of +most excellent people who believe in orthodox religion; people for +whose good qualities I have the greatest respect; people who have +good ideas on most other subjects; good citizens, good fathers, +husbands, wives and children--good in spite of their religion. I +do not attack people. I attack the mistakes of people. Orthodoxy +is getting weaker every day. + +_Question_. Do you believe in the existence of a Supreme Being? + +_Answer_. I do not believe in any Supreme personality or in any +Supreme Being who made the universe and governs nature. I do not +say that there is no such Being--all I say is that I do not believe +that such a Being exists. I know nothing on the subject, except +that I know that I do not know and that nobody else knows. But if +there is such a Being, he certainly never wrote the Old Testament. +You will understand my position. I do not say that a Supreme Being +does not exist, but I do say that I do not believe such a Being +exists. The universe--embracing all that is--all atoms, all stars, +each grain of sand and all the constellations, each thought and +dream of animal and man, all matter and all force, all doubt and +all belief, all virtue and all crime, all joy and all pain, all +growth and all decay--is all there is. It does not act because it +is moved from without. It acts from within. It is actor and +subject, means and end. + +It is infinite; the infinite could not have been created. It is +indestructible and that which cannot be destroyed was not created. +I am a Pantheist. + +_Question_. Don't you think the belief of the Agnostic is more +satisfactory to the believer than that of the Atheist? + +_Answer_. There is no difference. The Agnostic is an Atheist. +The Atheist is an Agnostic. The Agnostic says: "I do not know, +but I do not believe there is any God." The Atheist says the same. +The orthodox Christian says he knows there is a God; but we know +that he does not know. He simply believes. He cannot know. The +Atheist cannot know that God does not exist. + +_Question_. Haven't you just the faintest glimmer of a hope that +in some future state you will meet and be reunited to those who +are dear to you in this? + +_Answer_. I have no particular desire to be destroyed. I am +willing to go to heaven if there be such a place, and enjoy myself +for ever and ever. It would give me infinite satisfaction to know +that all mankind are to be happy forever. Infidels love their +wives and children as well as Christians do theirs. I have never +said a word against heaven--never said a word against the idea of +immortality. On the contrary, I have said all I could truthfully +say in favor of the idea that we shall live again. I most sincerely +hope that there is another world, better than this, where all the +broken ties of love will be united. It is the other place I have +been fighting. Better that all of us should sleep the sleep of +death forever than that some should suffer pain forever. If in +order to have a heaven there must be a hell, then I say away with +them both. My doctrine puts the bow of hope over every grave; my +doctrine takes from every mother's heart the fear of hell. No good +man would enjoy himself in heaven with his friends in hell. No +good God could enjoy himself in heaven with millions of his poor, +helpless mistakes in hell. The orthodox idea of heaven--with God +an eternal inquisitor, a few heartless angels and some redeemed +orthodox, all enjoying themselves, while the vast multitude will +weep in the rayless gloom of God's eternal dungeon--is not calculated +to make man good or happy. I am doing what I can to civilize the +churches, humanize the preachers and get the fear of hell out of +the human heart. In this business I am meeting with great success. + +--_Philadelphia Times_, September 25, 1885. + + +SOME LIVE TOPICS. + +_Question_. Shall you attend the Albany Freethought Convention? + +_Answer_. I have agreed to be present not only, but to address +the convention, on Sunday, the 13th of September. I am greatly +gratified to know that the interest in the question of intellectual +liberty is growing from year to year. Everywhere I go it seems to +be the topic of conversation. No matter upon what subject people +begin to talk, in a little while the discussion takes a religious +turn, and people who a few moments before had not the slightest +thought of saying a word about the churches, or about the Bible, +are giving their opinions in full. I hear discussions of this kind +in all the public conveyances, at the hotels, on the piazzas at +the seaside--and they are not discussions in which I take any part, +because I rarely say anything upon these questions except in public, +unless I am directly addressed. + +There is a general feeling that the church has ruled the world long +enough. People are beginning to see that no amount of eloquence, +or faith, or erudition, or authority, can make the records of +barbarism satisfactory to the heart and brain of this century. +They have also found that a falsehood in Hebrew in no more credible +than in plain English. People at last are beginning to be satisfied +that cruel laws were never good laws, no matter whether inspired +or uninspired. The Christian religion, like every other religion +depending upon inspired writings, is wrecked upon the facts of +nature. So long as inspired writers confined themselves to the +supernatural world; so long as they talked about angels and Gods +and heavens and hells; so long as they described only things that +man has never seen, and never will see, they were safe, not from +contradiction, but from demonstration. But these writings had to +have a foundation, even for their falsehoods, and that foundation +was in Nature. The foundation had to be something about which +somebody knew something, or supposed they knew something. They +told something about this world that agreed with the then general +opinion. Had these inspired writers told the truth about Nature-- +had they said that the world revolved on its axis, and made a +circuit about the sun--they could have gained no credence for their +statements about other worlds. They were forced to agree with +their contemporaries about this world, and there is where they made +the fundamental mistake. Having grown in knowledge, the world has +discovered that these inspired men knew nothing about this earth; +that the inspired books are filled with mistakes--not only mistakes +that we can contradict, but mistakes that we can demonstrate to be +mistakes. Had they told the truth in their day, about this earth, +they would not have been believed about other worlds, because their +contemporaries would have used their own knowledge about this world +to test the knowledge of these inspired men. We pursue the same +course; and what we know about this world we use as the standard, +and by that standard we have found that the inspired men knew +nothing about Nature as it is. Finding that they were mistaken +about this world, we have no confidence in what they have said +about another. Every religion has had its philosophy about this +world, and every one has been mistaken. As education becomes +general, as scientific modes are adopted, this will become clearer +and clearer, until "ignorant as inspiration" will be a comparison. + +_Question_. Have you seen the memorial to the New York Legislature, +to be presented this winter, asking for the repeal of such laws as +practically unite church and state? + +_Answer_. I have seen a memorial asking that church property be +taxed like other property; that no more money should be appropriated +from the public treasury for the support of institutions managed +by and in the interest of sectarian denominations; for the repeal +of all laws compelling the observance of Sunday as a religious day. +Such memorials ought to be addressed to the Legislatures of all +the States. The money of the public should only be used for the +benefit of the public. Public money should not be used for what +a few gentlemen think is for the benefit of the public. Personally, +I think it would be for the benefit of the public to have Infidel +or scientific--which is the same thing--lectures delivered in every +town, in every State, on every Sunday; but knowing that a great +many men disagree with me on this point, I do not claim that such +lectures ought to be paid for with public money. The Methodist +Church ought not to be sustained by taxation, nor the Catholic, +nor any other church. To relieve their property from taxation is +to appropriate money, to the extent of that tax, for the support +of that church. Whenever a burden is lifted from one piece of +property, it is distributed over the rest of the property of the +State, and to release one kind of property is to increase the tax +on all other kinds. + +There was a time when people really supposed the churches were +saving souls from the eternal wrath of a God of infinite love. +Being engaged in such a philanthropic work, and at the time nobody +having the courage to deny it--the church being all-powerful--all +other property was taxed to support the church; but now the more +civilized part of the community, being satisfied that a God of +infinite love will not be eternally unjust, feel as though the +church should support herself. To exempt the church from taxation +is to pay a part of the priest's salary. The Catholic now objects +to being taxed to support a school in which his religion is not +taught. He is not satisfied with the school that says nothing on +the subject of religion. He insists that it is an outrage to tax +him to support a school where the teacher simply teaches what he +knows. And yet this same Catholic wants his church exempted from +taxation, and the tax of an Atheist or of a Jew increased, when he +teaches in his untaxed church that the Atheist and Jew will both +be eternally damned! Is it possible for impudence to go further? + +I insist that no religion should be taught in any school supported +by public money; and by religion I mean superstition. Only that +should be taught in a school that somebody can learn and that +somebody can know. In my judgment, every church should be taxed +precisely the same as other property. The church may claim that +it is one of the instruments of civilization and therefore should +be exempt. If you exempt that which is useful, you exempt every +trade and every profession. In my judgment, theatres have done +more to civilize mankind than churches; that is to say, theatres +have done something to civilize mankind--churches nothing. The +effect of all superstition has been to render men barbarous. I do +not believe in the civilizing effects of falsehood. + +There was a time when ministers were supposed to be in the employ +of God, and it was thought that God selected them with great care +--that their profession had something sacred about it. These ideas +are no longer entertained by sensible people. Ministers should be +paid like other professional men, and those who like their preaching +should pay for the preach. They should depend, as actors do, upon +their popularity, upon the amount of sense, or nonsense, that they +have for sale. They should depend upon the market like other +people, and if people do not want to hear sermons badly enough to +build churches and pay for them, and pay the taxes on them, and +hire the preacher, let the money be diverted to some other use. +The pulpit should no longer be a pauper. I do not believe in +carrying on any business with the contribution box. All the +sectarian institutions ought to support themselves. These should +be no Methodist or Catholic or Presbyterian hospitals or orphan +asylums. All these should be supported by the State. There is no +such thing as Catholic charity, or Methodist charity. Charity +belongs to humanity, not to any particular form of faith or religion. +You will find as charitable people who never heard of religion, as +you can find in the church. The State should provide for those +who ought to be provided for. A few Methodists beg of everybody +they meet--send women with subscription papers, asking money from +all classes of people, and nearly everybody gives something from +politeness, or to keep from being annoyed; and when the institution +is finished, it is pointed at as the result of Methodism. + +Probably a majority of the people in this country suppose that +there was no charity in the world until the Christian religion was +founded. Great men have repeated this falsehood, until ignorance +and thoughtlessness believe it. There were orphan asylums in China, +in India, and in Egypt thousands of years before Christ was born; +and there certainly never was a time in the history of the whole +world when there was less charity in Europe than during the centuries +when the Church of Christ had absolute power. There were hundreds +of Mohammedan asylums before Christianity had built ten in the +entire world. + +All institutions for the care of unfortunate people should be +secular--should be supported by the State. The money for the +purpose should be raised by taxation, to the end that the burden +may be borne by those able to bear it. As it is now, most of the +money is paid, not by the rich, but by the generous, and those most +able to help their needy fellow citizens are the very ones who do +nothing. If the money is raised by taxation, then the burden will +fall where it ought to fall, and these institutions will no longer +be supported by the generous and emotional, and the rich and stingy +will no longer be able to evade the duties of citizenship and of +humanity. + +Now, as to the Sunday laws, we know that they are only spasmodically +enforced. Now and then a few people are arrested for selling papers +or cigars. Some unfortunate barber is grabbed by a policeman +because he has been caught shaving a Christian, Sunday morning. +Now and then some poor fellow with a hack, trying to make a dollar +or two to feed his horses, or to take care of his wife and children, +is arrested as though he were a murderer. But in a few days the +public are inconvenienced to that degree that the arrests stop and +business goes on in its accustomed channels, Sunday and all. + +Now and then society becomes so pious, so virtuous, that people +are compelled to enter saloons by the back door; others are compelled +to drink beer with the front shutters up; but otherwise the stream +that goes down the thirsty throats is unbroken. The ministers have +done their best to prevent all recreation on the Sabbath. They +would like to stop all the boats on the Hudson, and on the sea-- +stop all the excursion trains. They would like to compel every +human being that lives in the city of New York to remain within +its limits twenty-four hours every Sunday. They hate the parks; +they hate music; they hate anything that keeps a man away from +church. Most of the churches are empty during the summer, and now +most of the ministers leave themselves, and give over the entire +city to the Devil and his emissaries. And yet if the ministers had +their way, there would be no form of human enjoyment except prayer, +signing subscription papers, putting money in contribution boxes, +listening to sermons, reading the cheerful histories of the Old +Testament, imagining the joys of heaven and the torments of hell. +The church is opposed to the theatre, is the enemy of the opera, +looks upon dancing as a crime, hates billiards, despises cards, +opposes roller-skating, and even entertains a certain kind of +prejudice against croquet. + +_Question_. Do you think that the orthodox church gets its ideas +of the Sabbath from the teachings of Christ? + +_Answer_. I do not hold Christ responsible for these idiotic ideas +concerning the Sabbath. He regarded the Sabbath as something made +for man--which was a very sensible view. The holiest day is the +happiest day. The most sacred day is the one in which have been +done the most good deeds. There are two reasons given in the Bible +for keeping the Sabbath. One is that God made the world in six +days, and rested on the seventh. Now that all the ministers admit +that he did not make the world in six days, but that he made it in +six "periods," this reason is no longer applicable. The other +reason is that he brought the Jews out of Egypt with a "mighty +hand." This may be a very good reason still for the observance of +the Sabbath by the Jews, but the real Sabbath, that is to say, the +day to be commemorated, is our Saturday, and why should we commemorate +the wrong day? That disposes of the second reason. + +Nothing can be more inconsistent than the theories and practice of +the churches about the Sabbath. The cars run Sundays, and out of +the profits hundreds of ministers are supported. The great iron +and steel works fill with smoke and fire the Sabbath air, and the +proprietors divide the profits with the churches. The printers of +the city are busy Sunday afternoons and evenings, and the presses +during the nights, so that the sermons of Sunday can reach the +heathen on Monday. The servants of the rich are denied the privileges +of the sanctuary. The coachman sits on the box out-doors, while +his employer kneels in church preparing himself for the heavenly +chariot. The iceman goes about on the holy day, keeping believers +cool, they knowing at the same time that he is making it hot for +himself in the world to come. Christians cross the Atlantic, +knowing that the ship will pursue its way on the Sabbath. They +write letters to their friends knowing that they will be carried +in violation of Jehovah's law, by wicked men. Yet they hate to +see a pale-faced sewing girl enjoying a few hours by the sea; a +poor mechanic walking in the fields; or a tired mother watching +her children playing on the grass. Nothing ever was, nothing ever +will be, more utterly absurd and disgusting than a Puritan Sunday. +Nothing ever did make a home more hateful than the strict observance +of the Sabbath. It fills the house with hypocrisy and the meanest +kind of petty tyranny. The parents look sour and stern, the children +sad and sulky. They are compelled to talk upon subjects about +which they feel no interest, or to read books that are thought good +only because they are so stupid. + +_Question_. What have you to say about the growth of Catholicism, +the activity of the Salvation Army, and the success of revivalists +like the Rev. Samuel Jones? Is Christianity really gaining a strong +hold on the masses? + +_Answer_. Catholicism is growing in this country, and it is the +only country on earth in which it is growing. Its growth here +depends entirely upon immigration, not upon intellectual conquest. +Catholic emigrants who leave their homes in the Old World because +they have never had any liberty, and who are Catholics for the same +reason, add to the number of Catholics here, but their children's +children will not be Catholics. Their children will not be very +good Catholics, and even these immigrants themselves, in a few +years, will not grovel quite so low in the presence of a priest. +The Catholic Church is gaining no ground in Catholic countries. + +The Salvation Army is the result of two things--the general belief +in what are known as the fundamentals of Christianity, and the +heartlessness of the church. The church in England--that is to +say, the Church of England--having succeeded--that is to say, being +supported by general taxation--that is to say, being a successful, +well-fed parasite--naturally neglected those who did not in any +way contribute to its support. It became aristocratic. Splendid +churches were built; younger sons with good voices were put in the +pulpits; the pulpit became the asylum for aristocratic mediocrity, +and in this way the Church of England lost interest in the masses +and the masses lost interest in the Church of England. The neglected +poor, who really had some belief in religion, and who had not been +absolutely petrified by form and patronage, were ready for the +Salvation Army. They were not at home in the church. They could +not pay. They preferred the freedom of the street. They preferred +to attend a church where rags were no objection. Had the church +loved and labored with the poor the Salvation Army never would have +existed. These people are simply giving their idea of Christianity, +and in their way endeavoring to do what they consider good. I +don't suppose the Salvation Army will accomplish much. To improve +mankind you must change conditions. It is not enough to work simply +upon the emotional nature. The surroundings must be such as +naturally produce virtuous actions. If we are to believe recent +reports from London, the Church of England, even with the assistance +of the Salvation Army, has accomplished but little. It would be +hard to find any country with less morality. You would search long +in the jungles of Africa to find greater depravity. + +I account for revivalists like the Rev. Samuel Jones in the same +way. There is in every community an ignorant class--what you might +call a literal class--who believe in the real blood atonement; who +believe in heaven and hell, and harps and gridirons; who have never +had their faith weakened by reading commentators or books harmonizing +science and religion. They love to hear the good old doctrine; +they want hell described; they want it described so that they can +hear the moans and shrieks; they want heaven described; they want +to see God on a throne, and they want to feel that they are finally +to have the pleasure of looking over the battlements of heaven and +seeing all their enemies among the damned. The Rev. Mr. Munger +has suddenly become a revivalist. According to the papers he is +sought for in every direction. His popularity seems to rest upon +the fact that he brutally beat a girl twelve years old because she +did not say her prayers to suit him. Muscular Christianity is what +the ignorant people want. I regard all these efforts--including +those made by Mr. Moody and Mr. Hammond--as evidence that Christianity, +as an intellectual factor, has almost spent its force. It no longer +governs the intellectual world. + +_Question_. Are not the Catholics the least progressive? And are +they not, in spite of their professions to the contrary, enemies +to republican liberty? + +_Answer_. Every church that has a standard higher than human +welfare is dangerous. A church that puts a book above the laws +and constitution of its country, that puts a book above the welfare +of mankind, is dangerous to human liberty. Every church that puts +itself above the legally expressed will of the people is dangerous. +Every church that holds itself under greater obligation to a pope +than to a people is dangerous to human liberty. Every church that +puts religion above humanity--above the well-being of man in this +world--is dangerous. The Catholic Church may be more dangerous, +not because its doctrines are more dangerous, but because, on the +average, its members more sincerely believe its doctrines, and +because that church can be hurled as a solid body in any given +direction. For these reasons it is more dangerous than other +churches; but the doctrines are no more dangerous than those of +the Protestant churches. The man who would sacrifice the well- +being of man to please an imaginary phantom that he calls God, is +also dangerous. The only safe standard is the well-being of man +in this world. Whenever this world is sacrificed for the sake of +another, a mistake has been made. The only God that man can know +is the aggregate of all beings capable of suffering and of joy +within the reach of his influence. To increase the happiness of +such beings is to worship the only God that man can know. + +_Question_. What have you to say to the assertion of Dr. Deems +that there were never so many Christians as now? + +_Answer_. I suppose that the population of the earth is greater +now than at any other time within the historic period. This being +so, there may be more Christians, so-called, in this world than +there were a hundred years ago. Of course, the reverend doctor, +in making up his aggregate of Christians, counts all kinds and +sects--Unitarians, Universalists, and all the other "ans" and "ists" +and "ics" and "ites" and "ers." But Dr. Deems must admit that only +a few years ago most of the persons he now calls Christians would +have been burnt as heretics and Infidels. Let us compare the +average New York Christian with the Christian of two hundred years +ago. It is probably safe to say that there is not now in the city +of New York a genuine Presbyterian outside of an insane asylum. +Probably no one could be found who will to-day admit that he believes +absolutely in the Presbyterian Confession of Faith. There is +probably not an Episcopalian who believes in the Thirty-nine +Articles. Probably there is not an intelligent minister in the +city of New York, outside of the Catholic Church, who believes that +everything in the Bible is true. Probably no clergyman, of any +standing, would be willing to take the ground that everything in +the Old Testament--leaving out the question of inspiration--is +actually true. Very few ministers now preach the doctrine of +eternal punishment. Most of them would be ashamed to utter that +brutal falsehood. A large majority of gentlemen who attend church +take the liberty of disagreeing with the preacher. They would have +been very poor Christians two hundred years ago. A majority of +the ministers take the liberty of disagreeing, in many things, with +their Presbyteries and Synods. They would have been very poor +preachers two hundred years ago. Dr. Deems forgets that most +Christians are only nominally so. Very few believe their creeds. +Very few even try to live in accordance with what they call Christian +doctrines. Nobody loves his enemies. No Christian when smitten +on one cheek turns the other. Most Christians do take a little +thought for the morrow. They do not depend entirely upon the +providence of God. Most Christians now have greater confidence in +the average life-insurance company than in God--feel easier when +dying to know that they have a policy, through which they expect +the widow will receive ten thousand dollars, than when thinking of +all the Scripture promises. Even church-members do not trust in +God to protect their own property. They insult heaven by putting +lightning rods on their temples. They insure the churches against +the act of God. The experience of man has shown the wisdom of +relying on something that we know something about, instead of upon +the shadowy supernatural. The poor wretches to-day in Spain, +depending upon their priests, die like poisoned flies; die with +prayers between their pallid lips; die in their filth and faith. + +_Question_. What have you to say on the Mormon question? + +_Answer_. The institution of polygamy is infamous and disgusting +beyond expression. It destroys what we call, and all civilized +people call, "the family." It pollutes the fireside, and, above +all, as Burns would say, "petrifies the feeling." It is, however, +one of the institutions of Jehovah. It is protected by the Bible. +It has inspiration on its side. Sinai, with its barren, granite +peaks, is a perpetual witness in its favor. The beloved of God +practiced it, and, according to the sacred word, the wisest man +had, I believe, about seven hundred wives. This man received his +wisdom directly from God. It is hard for the average Bible worshiper +to attack this institution without casting a certain stain upon +his own book. + +Only a few years ago slavery was upheld by the same Bible. Slavery +having been abolished, the passages in the inspired volume upholding +it have been mostly forgotten, but polygamy lives, and the polygamists, +with great volubility, repeat the passages in their favor. We send +our missionaries to Utah, with their Bibles, to convert the Mormons. + +The Mormons show, by these very Bibles, that God is on their side. +Nothing remain now for the missionaries except to get back their +Bibles and come home. The preachers do not appeal to the Bible +for the purpose of putting down Mormonism. They say: "Send the +army." If the people of this country could only be honest; if they +would only admit that the Old Testament is but the record of a +barbarous people; if the Samson of the nineteenth century would +not allow its limbs to be bound by the Delilah of superstition, it +could with one blow destroy this monster. What shall we say of +the moral force of Christianity, when it utterly fails in the +presence of Mormonism? What shall we say of a Bible that we dare +not read to a Mormon as an argument against legalized lust, or as +an argument against illegal lust? + +I am opposed to polygamy. I want it exterminated by law; but I +hate to see the exterminators insist that God, only a few thousand +years ago, was as bad as the Mormons are to-day. In my judgment, +such a God ought to be exterminated. + +_Question_. What do you think of men like the Rev. Henry Ward +Beecher and the Rev. R. Heber Newton? Do they deserve any credit +for the course they have taken? + +_Answer_. Mr. Beecher is evidently endeavoring to shore up the +walls of the falling temple. He sees the cracks; he knows that +the building is out of plumb; he feels that the foundation is +insecure. Lies can take the place of stones only so long as they +are thoroughly believed. Mr. Beecher is trying to do something to +harmonize superstition and science. He is reading between the +lines. He has discovered that Darwin is only a later Saint Paul, +or that Saint Paul was the original Darwin. He is endeavoring to +make the New Testament a scientific text-book. Of course he will +fail. But his intentions are good. Thousands of people will read +the New Testament with more freedom than heretofore. They will +look for new meanings; and he who looks for new meanings will not +be satisfied with the old ones. Mr. Beecher, instead of strengthening +the walls, will make them weaker. + +There is no harmony between religion and science. When science +was a child, religion sought to strangle it in the cradle. Now +that science has attained its youth, and superstition is in its +dotage, the trembling, palsied wreck says to the athlete: "Let us +be friends." It reminds me of the bargain the cock wished to make +with the horse: "Let us agree not to step on each other's feet." +Mr. Beecher, having done away with hell, substitutes annihilation. +His doctrine at present is that only a fortunate few are immortal, +and that the great mass return to dreamless dust. This, of course, +is far better than hell, and is a great improvement on the orthodox +view. Mr. Beecher cannot believe that God would make such a mistake +as to make men doomed to suffer eternal pain. Why, I ask, should +God give life to men whom he knows are unworthy of life? Why should +he annihilate his mistakes? Why should he make mistakes that need +annihilation? + +It can hardly be said that Mr. Beecher's idea is a new one. It +was taught, with an addition, thousands of years ago, in India, +and the addition almost answers my objection. The old doctrine +was that only the soul that bears fruit, only the soul that bursts +into blossom, will at the death of the body rejoin the Infinite, +and that all other souls--souls not having blossomed--will go back +into low forms and make the journey up to man once more, and should +they then blossom and bear fruit, will be held worthy to join the +Infinite, but should they again fail, they again go back; and this +process is repeated until they do blossom, and in this way all +souls at last become perfect. I suggest that Mr. Beecher make at +least this addition to his doctrine. + +But allow me to say that, in my judgment, Mr. Beecher is doing +great good. He may not convince many people that he is right, but +he will certainly convince a great many people that Christianity +is wrong. + +_Question_. In what estimation do you hold Charles Watts and Samuel +Putnam, and what do you think of their labors in the cause of +Freethought? + +_Answer_. Mr. Watts is an extremely logical man, with a direct +and straightforward manner and mind. He has paid great attention +to what is called "Secularism." He thoroughly understands +organization, and he is undoubtedly one of the strongest debaters +in the field. He has had great experience. He has demolished more +divines than any man of my acquaintance. I have read several of +his debates. In discussion he is quick, pertinent, logical, and, +above all, good natured. + +There is not in all he says a touch of malice. He can afford to +be generous to his antagonists, because he is always the victor, +and is always sure of the victory. Last winter wherever I went, +I heard the most favorable accounts of Mr. Watts. All who heard +him were delighted. + +Mr. Putnam is one of the most thorough believers in intellectual +liberty in the world. He believes with all his heart, is full of +enthusiasm, ready to make any sacrifice, and to endure any hardship. +Had he lived a few years ago, he would have been a martyr. He has +written some of the most stirring appeals to the Liberals of this +country that I have ever read. He believes that Freethought has +a future; that the time is coming when the superstitions of the +world will either be forgotten, or remembered--some of them with +smiles--most of them with tears. Mr. Putnam, although endowed with +a poetic nature, with poetic insight, clings to the known, builds +upon the experience of man, and believes in fancies only when they +are used as the wings of a fact. I have never met a man who appeared +to be more thoroughly devoted to the great cause of mental freedom. +I have read his books with great interest, and find in them many +pages filled with philosophy and pathos. I have met him often and +I never heard him utter a harsh word about any human being. His +good nature is as unfailing as the air. His abilities are of the +highest order. It is a positive pleasure to meet him. He is so +enthusiastic, so unselfish, so natural, so appreciative of others, +so thoughtful for the cause, and so careless of himself, that he +compels the admiration of every one who really loves the just and +true. + +--_The Truth Seeker_, New York, September 5, 1885. + + +THE PRESIDENT AND SENATE. + +_Question_. What have you to say with reference to the respective +attitudes of the President and Senate? + +_Answer_. I don't think there is any doubt as to the right of the +Senate to call on the President for information. Of course that +means for what information he has. When a duty devolves upon two +persons, one of them has no right to withhold any facts calculated +to throw any light on the question that both are to decide. The +President cannot appoint any officer who has to be confirmed by +the Senate; he can simply nominate. The Senate cannot even suggest +a name; it can only pass upon the person nominated. If it is called +upon for counsel and advice, how can it give advice without knowing +the facts and circumstances? The President must have a reason for +wishing to make a change. He should give that reason to the Senate +without waiting to be asked. He has assured the country that he +is a civil service reformer; that no man is to be turned out because +he is a Republican, and no man appointed because he is a Democrat. +Now, the Senate has given the President an opportunity to prove +that he has acted as he has talked. If the President feels that +he is bound to carry out the civil-service law, ought not the Senate +to feel in the same way? Is it not the duty of the Senate to see +to it that the President does not, with its advice and consent, +violate the civil service law? Is the consent of the Senate a mere +matter of form? In these appointments the President is not +independent of or above the Senate; they are equal, and each has +the right to be "honor bright" with the other, at least. + +As long as this foolish law is unrepealed it must be carried out. +Neither party is in favor of civil service reform, and never was. +The Republican party did not carry it out, and did not intend to. +The President has the right to nominate. Under the law as it is +now, when the President wants to appoint a clerk, or when one of +his secretaries wants one, four names are sent, and from these four +names a choice has to be made. This is clearly an invasion of the +rights of the Executive. If they have the right to compel the +President to choose from four, why not from three, or two? Why +not name the one, and have done with it? The law is worse than +unconstitutional--it is absurd. + +But in this contest the Senate, in my judgment, is right. In my +opinion, by the time Cleveland goes out most of the offices will +be filled with Democrats. If the Republicans succeed next time, +I know, and everybody knows, that they will never rest easy until +they get the Democrats out. They will shout "offensive partisanship." +The truth is, the theory is wrong. Every citizen should take an +interest in politics. A good man should not agree to keep silent +just for the sake of an office. A man owes his best thoughts to +his country. If he ought to defend his country in time of war, +and under certain circumstances give his life for it, can we say +that in time of peace he is under no obligation to discharge what +he believes to be a duty, if he happens to hold an office? Must +he sell his birthright for the sake of being a doorkeeper? The +whole doctrine is absurd and never will be carried out. + +_Question_. What do you think as to the presidential race? + +_Answer_. That is a good way off. I think the people can hardly +be roused to enthusiasm by the old names. Our party must take +another step forward. We cannot live on what we have done; we must +seek power for the sake, not of power, but for the accomplishment +of a purpose. We must reform the tariff. We must settle the +question of silver. We must have sense enough to know what the +country needs, and courage enough to tell it. By reforming the +tariff, I mean protect that and that only that needs protection-- +laws for the country and not for the few. We want honest money; +we want a dollar's worth of gold in a silver dollar, and a dollar's +worth of silver in a gold dollar. We want to make them of equal +value. Bi-metallism does not mean that eighty cents' worth of +silver is worth one hundred in gold. The Republican party must +get back its conscience and be guided by it in deciding the questions +that arise. Great questions are pressing for solution. Thousands +of working people are in want. Business is depressed. The future +is filled with clouds. What does the Republican party propose? +Must we wait for mobs to inaugurate reform? Must we depend on +police or statesmen? Should we wait and crush by brute force or +should we prevent? + +The toilers demand that eight hours should constitute a day's work. +Upon this question what does our party say? Labor saving machines +ought to lighten the burdens of the laborers. It will not do to +say "over production" and keep on inventing machines and refuse to +shorten the hours. What does our party say? The rich can take +care of themselves if the mob will let them alone, and there will +be no mob if there is no widespread want. Hunger is a communist. +The next candidate of the Republican party must be big enough and +courageous enough to answer these questions. If we find that kind +of a candidate we shall succeed--if we do not, we ought not. + +--_Chicago Inter-Ocean_, February, 1886. + + +ATHEISM AND CITIZENSHIP. + +_Question_. Have you noticed the decision of Mr. Nathaniel Jarvis, +Jr., clerk of the Naturalization Bureau of the Court of Common +Pleas, that an Atheist cannot become a citizen? + +_Answer_. Yes, but I do not think it necessary for a man to be a +theist in order to become or to remain a citizen of this country. +The various laws, from 1790 up to 1828, provided that the person +wishing to be naturalized might make oath or affirmation. The +first exception you will find in the Revised Statutes of the United +States passed in 1873-74, section 2,165, as follows:--"An alien +may be admitted to become a citizen of the United States in the +following manner, and not otherwise:--First, he shall declare on +oath, before a Circuit or District Court of the United States, +etc." I suppose Mr. Jarvis felt it to be his duty to comply with +this section. In this section there is nothing about affirmation +--only the word "oath" is used--and Mr. Jarvis came to the conclusion +that an Atheist could not take an oath, and, therefore, could not +declare his intention legally to become a citizen of the United +States. Undoubtedly Mr. Jarvis felt it his duty to stand by the +law and to see to it that nobody should become a citizen of this +country who had not a well defined belief in the existence of a +being that he could not define and that no man has ever been able +to define. In other words, that he should be perfectly convinced +that there is a being "without body, parts or passions," who presides +over the destinies of this world, and more especially those of New +York in and about that part known as City Hall Park. + +_Question_. Was not Mr. Jarvis right in standing by the law? + +_Answer_. If Mr. Jarvis is right, neither Humboldt nor Darwin +could have become a citizen of the United States. Wagner, the +greatest of musicians, not being able to take an oath, would have +been left an alien. Under this ruling Haeckel, Spencer and Tyndall +would be denied citizenship--that is to say, the six greatest men +produced by the human race in the nineteenth century, were and are +unfit to be citizens of the United States. Those who have placed +the human race in debt cannot be citizens of the Republic. On the +other hand, the ignorant wife beater, the criminal, the pauper +raised in the workhouse, could take the necessary oath and would +be welcomed by New York "with arms outstretched as she would fly." + +_Question_. You have quoted one statute. Is there no other +applicable to this case? + +_Answer_. I am coming to that. If Mr. Jarvis will take the pains +to read not only the law of naturalization in section 2,165 of the +Revised Statutes of the United States, but the very first chapter +in the book, "Title I.," he will find in the very first section +this sentence: "The requirements of any 'oath' shall be deemed +complied with by making affirmation in official form." This applies +to section 2,165. Of course an Atheist can affirm, and the statute +provides that wherever an oath is required affirmation may be made. + +_Question_. Did you read the recent action of Judge O'Gorman, of +the Superior Court, in refusing naturalization papers to an applicant +because he had not read the Constitution of the United States? + +_Answer_. I did. The United States Constitution is a very important +document, a good, sound document, but it is talked about a great +deal more than it is read. I'll venture that you may commence at +the Battery to interview merchants and other business men about +the Constitution and you will talk with a hundred before you will +find one who has ever read it. + +--_New York Herald_, August 8, 1886. + + +THE LABOR QUESTION. + +_Question_. What is your remedy, Colonel, for the labor troubles +of the day? + +_Answer_. One remedy is this: I should like to see the laboring +men succeed. I should like to see them have a majority in Congress +and with a President of their own. I should like to see this so +that they could satisfy themselves how little, after all, can be +accomplished by legislation. The moment responsibility should +touch their shoulders they would become conservative. They would +find that making a living in this world is an individual affair, +and that each man must look out for himself. They would soon find +that the Government cannot take care of the people. The people +must support the Government. Everything cannot be regulated by +law. The factors entering into this problem are substantially +infinite and beyond the intellectual grasp of any human being. +Perhaps nothing in the world will convince the laboring man how +little can be accomplished by law until there is opportunity of +trying. To discuss the question will do good, so I am in favor of +its discussion. To give the workingmen a trial will do good, so +I am in favor of giving them a trial. + +_Question_. But you have not answered my question: I asked you +what could be done, and you have told me what could not be done. +Now, is there not some better organization of society that will +help in this trouble? + +_Answer_. Undoubtedly. Unless humanity is a failure, society will +improve from year to year and from age to age. There will be, as +the years go by, less want, less injustice, and the gifts of nature +will be more equally divided, but there will never come a time when +the weak can do as much as the strong, or when the mentally weak +can accomplish as much as the intellectually strong. There will +forever be inequality in society; but, in my judgment, the time +will come when an honest, industrious person need not want. In my +judgment, that will come, not through governmental control, not +through governmental slavery, not through what is called Socialism, +but through liberty and through individuality. I can conceive of +no greater slavery than to have everything done by the Government. +I want free scope given to individual effort. In time some things +that governments have done will be removed. The creation of a +nobility, the giving of vast rights to corporations, and the +bestowment of privileges on the few will be done away with. In +other words, governmental interference will cease and man will be +left more to himself. The future will not do away with want by +charity, which generally creates more want than it alleviates, but +by justice and intelligence. Shakespeare says, "There is no darkness +but ignorance," and it might be added that ignorance is the mother +of most suffering. + +--_The Enquirer_, Cincinnati, Ohio, September 30, 1886. + + +RAILROADS AND POLITICS. + +_Question_. You are intimately acquainted with the great railroad +managers and the great railroad systems, and what do you think is +the great need of the railways to-day? + +_Answer_. The great need of the railroads to-day is more business, +more cars, better equipments, better pay for the men and less +gambling in Wall Street. + +_Question_. Is it your experience that public men usually ride on +passes? + +_Answer_. Yes, whenever they can get them. Passes are for the +rich. Only those are expected to pay who can scarcely afford it. +Nothing shortens a journey, nothing makes the road as smooth, +nothing keeps down the dust and keeps out the smoke like a pass. + +_Question_. Don't you think that the pass system is an injustice +--that is, that ordinary travelers are taxed for the man who rides +on a pass? + +_Answer_. Certainly, those who pay, pay for those who do not. +This is one of the misfortunes of the obscure. It is so with +everything. The big fish live on the little ones. + +_Question_. Are not parallel railroads an evil? + +_Answer_. No, unless they are too near together. Competition does +some good and some harm, but it must exist. All these things must +be left to take care of themselves. If the Government interferes +it is at the expense of the manhood and liberty of the people. + +_Question_. But wouldn't it be better for the people if the +railroads were managed by the Government as is the Post-Office? + +_Answer_. No, everything that individual can do should be left to +them. If the Government takes charge of the people they become +weak and helpless. The people should take charge of the Government. +Give the folks a chance. + +_Question_. In the next presidential contest what will be the main +issue? + +_Answer_. The Maine issue! + +_Question_. Would you again refuse to take the stump for Mr. Blaine +if he should be renominated, and if so, why? + +_Answer_. I do not expect to take the stump for anybody. Mr. +Blaine is probably a candidate, and if he is nominated there will +be plenty of people on the stump--or fence--or up a tree or somewhere +in the woods. + +_Question_. What are the most glaring mistakes of Cleveland's +administration? + +_Answer_. First, accepting the nomination. Second, taking the +oath of office. Third, not resigning. + +--_Times Star_, Cincinnati, September 30, 1886. + + +PROHIBITION. + +_Question_. How much importance do you attach to the present +prohibition movement? + +_Answer_. No particular importance. I am opposed to prohibition +and always have been, and hope always to be. I do not want the +Legislature to interfere in these matters. I do not believe that +the people can be made temperate by law. Men and women are not +made great and good by the law. There is no good in the world that +cannot be abused. Prohibition fills the world with spies and +tattlers, and, besides that, where a majority of the people are +not in favor of it the law will not be enforced; and where a majority +of the people are in favor of it there is not much need of the law. +Where a majority are against it, juries will violate their oath, +and witnesses will get around the truth, and the result is +demoralization. Take wine and malt liquors out of the world and +we shall lose a vast deal of good fellowship; the world would lose +more than it would gain. There is a certain sociability about wine +that I should hate to have taken from the earth. Strong liquors +the folks had better let alone. If prohibition succeeds, and wines +and malt liquors go, the next thing will be to take tobacco away, +and the next thing all other pleasures, until prayer meetings will +be the only places of enjoyment. + +_Question_. Do you care to say who your choice is for Republican +nominee for President in 1888? + +_Answer_. I now promise that I will answer this question either +in May or June, 1888. At present my choice is not fixed, and is +liable to change at any moment, and I need to leave it free, so +that it can change from time to time as the circumstances change. +I will, however, tell you privately that I think it will probably +be a new man, somebody on whom the Republicans can unite. I have +made a good many inquiries myself to find out who this man is to +be, but in every instance the answer has been determined by the +location in which the gentleman lived who gave the answer. Let us +wait. + +_Question_. Do you think the Republican party should take a decided +stand on the temperance issue? + +_Answer_. I do; and that decided stand should be that temperance +is an individual question, something with which the State and Nation +have nothing to do. Temperance is a thing that the law cannot +control. You might as well try to control music, painting, sculpture, +or metaphysics, as the question of temperance. As life becomes +more valuable, people will learn to take better care of it. There +is something more to be desired even than temperance, and that is +liberty. I do not believe in putting out the sun because weeds +grow. I should rather have some weeds than go without wheat and +corn. The Republican party should represent liberty and individuality; +it should keep abreast of the real spirit of the age; the Republican +party ought to be intelligent enough to know that progress has been +marked not by the enactment of new laws, but by the repeal of old +ones. + +--_Evening Traveler_, Boston, October, 1886. + + +HENRY GEORGE AND LABOR. + +_Question_. It is said, Colonel Ingersoll, that you are for Henry +George? + +_Answer_. Of course; I think it the duty of the Republicans to +defeat the Democracy--a solemn duty--and I believe that they have +a chance to elect George; that is to say, an opportunity to take +New York from their old enemy. If the Republicans stand by George +he will succeed. All the Democratic factions are going to unite +to beat the workingmen. What a picture! Now is the time for the +Republicans to show that all their sympathies are not given to +bankers, corporations and millionaires. They were on the side of +the slave--they gave liberty to millions. Let them take another +step and extend their hands to the sons of toil. + +My heart beats with those who bear the burdens of this poor world. + +_Question_. Do you not think that capital is entitled to +protection? + +_Answer_. I am in favor of accomplishing all reforms in a legal +and orderly way, and I want the laboring people of this country to +appeal to the ballot. All classes and all interests must be content +to abide the result. + +I want the laboring people to show that they are intelligent enough +to stand by each other. Henry George is their natural leader. +Let them be true to themselves by being true to him. The great +questions between capital and labor must be settled peaceably. +There is no excuse for violence, and no excuse for contempt and +scorn. No country can be prosperous while the workers want and +the idlers waste. Those who do the most should have the most. +There is no civilized country, so far as I know, but I believe +there will be, and I want to hasten they day when the map of the +world will give the boundaries of that blessed land. + +_Question_. Do you agree with George's principles? Do you believe +in socialism? + +_Answer_. I do not understand that George is a Socialist. He is +on the side of those that work--so am I. He wants to help those +that need help--so do I. The rich can take care of themselves. +I shed no tears over the miseries of capital. I think of the men +in mines and factories, in huts, hovels and cellars; of the poor +sewing women; of the poor, the hungry and the despairing. The +world must be made better through intelligence. I do not go with +the destroyers, with those that hate the successful, that hate the +generous, simply because they are rich. Wealth is the surplus +produced by labor, and the wealth of the world should keep the +world from want. + +--_New York Herald_, October 13, 1886. + + +LABOR QUESTION AND SOCIALISM. + +_Question_. What do you think of Henry George for mayor? + +_Answer_. Several objections have been urged, not to what Mr. +George has done, but to what Mr. George has thought, and he is the +only candidate up to this time against whom a charge of this +character could be made. Among other things, he seems to have +entertained an idea to the effect that a few men should not own +the entire earth; that a child coming into the world has a right +to standing room, and that before he walks, his mother has a right +to standing room while she holds him. He insists that if it were +possible to bottle the air, and sell it as we do mineral water, it +would be hardly fair for the capitalists of the world to embark in +such a speculation, especially where millions were allowed to die +simply because they were not able to buy breath at "pool prices." +Mr. George seems to think that the time will come when capital will +be intelligent enough and civilized enough to take care of itself. +He has a dream that poverty and crime and all the evils that go +hand in hand with partial famine, with lack of labor, and all the +diseases born of living in huts and cellars, born of poor food and +poor clothing and of bad habits, will disappear, and that the world +will be really fit to live in. He goes so far as to insist that +men ought to have more than twenty-three or twenty-four dollars a +month for digging coal, and that they ought not to be compelled to +spend that money in the store or saloon of the proprietor of the +mine. He has also stated on several occasions that a man ought +not to drive a street car for sixteen or eighteen hours a day--that +even a street-car driver ought to have the privilege now and then +of seeing his wife, or at least one of the children, awake. And +he has gone so far as to say that a letter-carrier ought not to +work longer in each day for the United States than he would for a +civilized individual. + +To people that imagine that this world is already perfection; that +the condition of no one should be bettered except their own, these +ideas seem dangerous. A man who has already amassed a million, +and who has no fear for the future, and who says: "I will employ +the cheapest labor and make men work as long as they can possibly +endure the toil," will regard Mr. George as an impractical man. +It is very probable that all of us will be dead before all the +theories of Mr. George are put in practice. Some of them, however, +may at some time benefit mankind; and so far as I am concerned, I +am willing to help hasten the day, although it may not come while +I live. I do not know that I agree with many of the theories of +Mr. George. I know that I do not agree with some of them. But +there is one thing in which I do agree with him, and that is, in +his effort to benefit the human race, in his effort to do away with +some of the evils that now afflict mankind. I sympathize with him +in his endeavor to shorten the hours of labor, to increase the well- +being of laboring men, to give them better houses, better food, +and in every way to lighten the burdens that now bear upon their +bowed backs. It may be that very little can be done by law, except +to see that they are not absolutely abused; to see that the mines +in which they work are supplied with air and with means of escape +in time of danger; to prevent the deforming of children by forcing +upon them the labor of men; to shorten the hours of toil, and to +give all laborers certain liens, above all other claims, for their +work. It is easy to see that in this direction something may be +done by law. + +_Question_. Colonel Ingersoll, are you a Socialist? + +_Answer_. I am an Individualist instead of a Socialist. I am a +believer in individuality and in each individual taking care of +himself, and I want the Government to do just as little as it can +consistently with the safety of the nation, and I want as little +law as possible--only as much as will protect life, reputation and +property by punishing criminals and by enforcing honest contracts. +But if a government gives privileges to a few, the few must not +oppress the many. The Government has no right to bestow any +privilege upon any man or upon any corporation, except for the +public good. That which is a special privilege to the few, should +be a special benefit to the many. And whenever the privileged few +abuse the privilege so that it becomes a curse to the many, the +privilege, whatever it is, should be withdrawn. I do not pretend +to know enough to suggest a remedy for all the evils of society. +I doubt if one human mind could take into consideration the almost +infinite number of factors entering into such a problem. And this +fact that no one knows, is the excuse for trying. While I may not +believe that a certain theory will work, still, if I feel sure it +will do no harm, I am willing to see it tried. + +_Question_. Do you think that Mr. George would make a good mayor? + +_Answer_. I presume he would. He is a thoughtful, prudent man. +His reputation for honesty has never, so far as I know, been called +in question. It certainly does not take a genius to be mayor of +New York. If so, there have been some years when there was hardly +a mayor. I take it that a clear-headed, honest man, whose only +object is to do his duty, and with courage enough to stand by his +conscience, would make a good mayor of New York or of any other +city. + +_Question_. Are you in sympathy with the workingmen and their +objects? + +_Answer_. I am in sympathy with laboring men of all kinds, whether +they labor with hand or brain. The Knights of Labor, I believe, +do not allow a lawyer to become a member. I am somewhat wider in +my sympathies. No men in the world struggle more heroically; no +men in the world have suffered more, or carried a heavier cross, +or worn a sharper crown of thorns, than those that have produced +what we call the literature of our race. So my sympathies extend +all the way from hod-carriers to sculptors; from well-diggers to +astronomers. If the objects of the laboring men are to improve +their condition without injuring others; to have homes and firesides, +and wives and children; plenty to eat, good clothes to wear; to +develop their minds, to educate their children--in short, to become +prosperous and civilized, I sympathize with them, and hope they +will succeed. I have not the slightest sympathy with those that +wish to accomplish all these objects through brute force. A Nihilist +may be forgiven in Russia--may even be praised in Russia; a Socialist +may be forgiven in Germany; and certainly a Home-ruler can be +pardoned in Ireland, but in the United States there is no place +for Anarchist, Socialist or Dynamiter. In this country the political +power has been fairly divided. Poverty has just as many votes as +wealth. No man can be so poor as not to have a ballot; no man is +rich enough to have two; and no man can buy another vote, unless +somebody is mean enough and contemptible enough to sell; and if he +does sell his vote, he never should complain about the laws or +their administration. So the foolish and the wise are on an +equality, and the political power of this country is divided so +that each man is a sovereign. + +Now, the laboring people are largely in the majority in this country. +If there are any laws oppressing them, they should have them +repealed. I want the laboring people--and by the word "laboring" +now, I include only the men that they include by that word--to +unite; I want them to show that they have the intelligence to act +together, and sense enough to vote for a friend. I want them to +convince both the other great parties that they cannot be purchased. +This will be an immense step in the right direction. + +I have sometimes thought that I should like to see the laboring +men in power, so that they would realize how little, after all, +can be done by law. All that any man should ask, so far as the +Government is concerned, is a fair chance to compete with his +neighbors. Personally, I am for the abolition of all special +privileges that are not for the general good. My principal hope +of the future is the civilization of my race; the development not +only of the brain, but of the heart. I believe the time will come +when we shall stop raising failures, when we shall know something +of the laws governing human beings. I believe the time will come +when we shall not produce deformed persons, natural criminals. In +other words, I think the world is going to grow better and better. +This may not happen to this nation or to what we call our race, +but it may happen to some other race, and all that we do in the +right direction hastens that day and that race. + +_Question_. Do you think that the old parties are about to die? + +_Answer_. It is very hard to say. The country is not old enough +for tables of mortality to have been calculated upon parties. I +suppose a party, like anything else, has a period of youth, of +manhood and decay. The Democratic party is not dead. Some men +grow physically strong as they grow mentally weak. The Democratic +party lived out of office, and in disgrace, for twenty-five years, +and lived to elect a President. If the Democratic party could live +on disgrace for twenty-five years it now looks as though the +Republican party, on the memory of its glory and of its wonderful +and unparalleled achievements, might manage to creep along for a +few years more. + +--_New York World_, October 26, 1886. + + +HENRY GEORGE AND SOCIALISM. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of the result of the election? + +_Answer_. I find many dead on the field whose faces I recognize. +I see that Morrison has taken a "horizontal" position. Free trade +seems to have received an exceedingly black eye. Carlisle, in my +judgment, one of the very best men in Congress, has been defeated +simply because he is a free trader, and I suppose you can account +for Hurd's defeat in the same way. The people believe in protection +although they generally admit that the tariff ought to be reformed. +I believe in protecting "infant industries," but I do not believe +in rocking the cradle when the infant is seven feet high and wears +number twelve boots. + +_Question_. Do you sympathize with the Socialists, or do you think +that the success of George would promote socialism? + +_Answer_. I have said frequently that if I lived in Russia I should +in all probability be a Nihilist. I can conceive of no government +that would not be as good as that of Russia, and I would consider +_no_ government far preferable to that government. Any possible +state of anarchy is better than organized crime, because in the +chaos of anarchy justice may be done by accident, but in a government +organized for the perpetuation of slavery, and for the purpose of +crushing out of the human brain every noble thought, justice does +not live. In Germany I would probably be a Socialist--to this +extent, that I would want the political power honestly divided +among the people. I can conceive of no circumstance in which I +could support Bismarck. I regard Bismarck as a projection of the +Middle Ages, as a shadow that has been thrown across the sunlight +of modern civilization, and in that shadow grow all the bloodless +crimes. Now, in Ireland, of course, I believe in home rule. In +this country I am an Individualist. The political power here is +equally divided. Poverty and wealth have the same power at the +ballot-box. Intelligence and ignorance are on an equality here, +simply because all men have a certain interest in the government +where they live. I hate above all other things the tyranny of a +government. I do not want a government to send a policeman along +with me to keep me from buying eleven eggs for a dozen. I will +take care of myself. I want the people to do everything they can +do, and the Government to keep its hands off, because if the +Government attends to all these matters the people lose manhood, +and in a little while become serfs, and there will arise some strong +mind and some powerful hand that will reduce them to actual slavery. +So I am in favor or personal liberty to the largest extent. Whenever +the Government grants privileges to the few, these privileges should +be for the benefit of the many, and when they cease to be for the +benefit of the many, they should be taken from the few and used by +the government itself for the benefit of the whole people. And I +want to see in this country the Government so administered that +justice will be done to all as nearly as human institutions can +produce such a result. Now, I understand that in any state of +society there will be failures. We have failures among the working +people. We have had some failures in Congress. I will not mention +the names, because your space is limited. There have been failures +in the pulpit, at the bar; in fact, in every pursuit of life you +will presume we shall have failures with us for a great while; at +least until the establishment of the religion of the body, when we +shall cease to produce failures; and I have faith enough in the +human race to believe that that time will come, but I do not expect +it during my life. + +_Question_. What do you think of the income tax as a step toward +the accomplishment of what you desire? + +_Answer_. There are some objections to an income tax. First, the +espionage that it produces on the part of the Government. Second, +the amount of perjury that it annually produces. Men hate to have +their business inquired into if they are not doing well. They +often pay a very large tax to make their creditors think they are +prosperous. Others by covering up, avoid the tax. But I will say +this with regard to taxation: The great desideratum is stability. +If we tax only the land, and that were the only tax, in a little +while every other thing, and the value of every other thing, would +adjust itself in relation to that tax, and perfect justice would +be the result. That is to say, if it were stable long enough the +burden would finally fall upon the right backs in every department. +The trouble with taxation is that it is continually changing--not +waiting for the adjustment that will naturally follow provided it +is stable. I think the end, so far as land is concerned, could be +reached by cumulative taxation--that is to say, a man with a certain +amount of land paying a very small per cent., with more land, and +increased per cent., and let that per cent. increase rapidly enough +so that no man could afford to hold land that he did not have a +use for. So I believe in cumulative taxation in regard to any kind +of wealth. Let a man worth ten million dollars pay a greater per +cent. than one worth one hundred thousand, because he is able to +pay it. The other day a man was talking to me about having the +dead pay the expenses of the Government; that whenever a man died +worth say five million dollars, one million should go to the +Government; that if he died worth ten million dollars, three millions +should go to the Government; if he died worth twenty million dollars, +eight million should go to the Government, and so on. He said that +in this way the expenses of the Government could be borne by the +dead. I should be in favor of cumulative taxation upon legacies-- +the greater the legacy, the greater the per cent. of taxation. + +But, of course, I am not foolish enough to suppose that I understand +these questions. I am giving you a few guesses. My only desire +is to guess right. I want to see the people of this world live +for this world, and I hope the time will come when a civilized man +will understand that he cannot be perfectly happy while anybody +else is miserable; that a perfectly civilized man could not enjoy +a dinner knowing that others were starving; that he could not enjoy +the richest robes if he knew that some of his fellow-men in rags +and tatters were shivering in the blast. In other words, I want +to carry out the idea there that I have so frequently uttered with +regard to the other world; that is, that no gentleman angel could +be perfectly happy knowing that somebody else was in hell. + +_Question_. What are the chances for the Republican party in 1888? + +_Answer_. If it will sympathize with the toilers, as it did with +the slaves; if it will side with the needy; if it will only take +the right side it will elect the next President. The poor should +not resort to violence; the rich should appeal to the intelligence +of the working people. These questions cannot be settled by envy +and scorn. The motto of both parties should be: "Come, let us +reason together." The Republican party was the grandest organization +that ever existed. It was brave, intelligent and just. It sincerely +loved the right. A certificate of membership was a patent of +nobility. If it will only stand by the right again, its victorious +banner will float over all the intelligent sons of toil. + +--_The Times_, Chicago, Illinois, November 4, 1886. + + +REPLY TO THE REV. B. F. MORSE.* + +[* At the usual weekly meeting of the Baptist ministers at the +Publication Rooms yesterday, the Rev. Dr. B. F. Morse read an essay +on "Christianity vs. Materialism." His contention was that all +nature showed that design, not evolution, was its origin. + +In his concluding remarks Dr. Morse said that he knew from +unquestionable authority, that Robert G. Ingersoll did not believe +what he uttered in his lectures, and that to get out of a financial +embarrassment he looked around for a money making scheme that could +be put into immediate execution. To lecture against Christianity +was the most rapid way of giving him the needed cash and, what was +quite as acceptable to him, at the same time, notoriety.] + +This aquatic or web-footed theologian who expects to go to heaven +by diving is not worth answering. Nothing can be more idiotic than +to answer an argument by saying he who makes it does not believe +it. Belief has nothing to do with the cogency or worth of an +argument. There is another thing. This man, or rather this +minister, says that I attacked Christianity simply to make money. +Is it possible that, after preachers have had the field for eighteen +hundred years, the way to make money is to attack the clergy? Is +this intended as a slander against me or the ministers? + +The trouble is that my arguments cannot be answered. All the +preachers in the world cannot prove that slavery is better than +liberty. They cannot show that all have not an equal right to +think. They cannot show that all have not an equal right to express +their thoughts. They cannot show that a decent God will punish a +decent man for making the best guess he can. This is all there is +about it. + +--_The Herald_, New York, December 14, 1886. + + +INGERSOLL ON McGLYNN. + +The attitude of the Roman Catholic Church in Dr. McGlynn's case is +consistent with the history and constitution of the Catholic Church +--perfectly consistent with its ends, its objects, and its means-- +and just as perfectly inconsistent with intellectual liberty and +the real civilization of the human race. + +When a man becomes a Catholic priest, he has been convinced that +he ought not to think for himself upon religious questions. He +has become convinced that the church is the only teacher--that he +has a right to think only to enforce its teachings. From that +moment he is a moral machine. The chief engineer resides at Rome, +and he gives his orders through certain assistant engineers until +the one is reached who turns the crank, and the machine has nothing +to do one way or the other. This machine is paid for giving up +his liberty by having machines under him who have also given up +theirs. While somebody else turns his crank, he has the pleasure +of turning a crank belonging to somebody below him. + +Of course, the Catholic Church is supposed to be the only perfect +institution on earth. All others are not only imperfect, but +unnecessary. All others have been made either by man, or by the +Devil, or by a partnership, and consequently cannot be depended +upon for the civilization of man. + +The Catholic Church gets its power directly from God, and is the +only institution now in the world founded by God. There was never +any other, so far as I know, except polygamy and slavery and a +crude kind of monarchy, and they have been, for the most part, +abolished. + +The Catholic Church must be true to itself. It must claim everything, +and get what it can. It alone is infallible. It alone has all +the wisdom of this world. It alone has the right to exist. All +other interests are secondary. To be a Catholic is of the first +importance. Human liberty is nothing. Wealth, position, food, +clothing, reputation, happiness--all these are less than worthless +compared with what the Catholic Church promises to the man who will +throw all these away. + +A priest must preach what his bishop tells him. A bishop must +preach what his archbishop tells him. The pope must preach what +he says God tells him. + +Dr. McGlynn cannot make a compromise with the Catholic Church. It +never compromises when it is in the majority. + +I do not mean by this that the Catholic Church is worse than any +other. All are alike in this regard. Every sect, no matter how +insignificant; every church, no matter how powerful, asks precisely +the same thing from every member--that is to say, a surrender of +intellectual freedom. The Catholic Church wants the same as the +Baptist, the Presbyterian, and the Methodist--it wants the whole +earth. It is ambitious to be the one supreme power. It hopes to +see the world upon its knees, with all its tongues thrust out for +wafers. It has the arrogance of humility and the ferocity of +universal forgiveness. In this respect it resembles every other +sect. Every religion is a system of slavery. + +Of course, the religionists say that they do not believe in +persecution; that they do not believe in burning and hanging and +whipping or loading with chains a man simply because he is an +Infidel. They are willing to leave all this with God, knowing that +a being of infinite goodness will inflict all these horrors and +tortures upon an honest man who differs with the church. + +In case Dr. McGlynn is deprived of his priestly functions, it is +hard to say what effect it will have upon his church and the labor +party in the country. + +So long as a man believes that a church has eternal joy in store +for him, so long as he believes that a church holds within its hand +the keys of heaven and hell, it will be hard to make him trade off +the hope of everlasting happiness for a few good clothes and a +little good food and higher wages here. He finally thinks that, +after all, he had better work for less and go a little hungry, and +be an angel forever. + +I hope, however, that a good many people who have been supporting +the Catholic Church by giving tithes of the wages of weariness will +see, and clearly see, that Catholicism is not their friend; that +the church cannot and will not support them; that, on the contrary, +they must support the church. I hope they will see that all the +prayers have to be paid for, although not one has ever been answered. +I hope they will perceive that the church is on the side of wealth +and power, that the mitre is the friend of the crown, that the +altar is the sworn brother of the throne. I hope they will finally +know that the church cares infinitely more for the money of the +millionaire than for the souls of the poor. + +Of course, there are thousands of individual exceptions. I am +speaking of the church as an institution, as a corporation--and +when I say the church, I include all churches. It is said of +corporations in general, that they have no soul, and it may truthfully +be said of the church that it has less than any other. It lives +on alms. It gives nothing for what it gets. It has no sympathy. +Beggars never weep over the misfortunes of other beggars. + +Nothing could give me more pleasure than to see the Catholic Church +on the side of human freedom; nothing more pleasure than to see +the Catholics of the world--those who work and weep and toil-- +sensible enough to know that all the money paid for superstition +is worse than lost. I wish they could see that the counting of +beads, and the saying of prayers and celebrating of masses, and +all the kneelings and censer-swingings and fastings and bell-ringing, +amount to less than nothing--that all these things tend only to +the degradation of mankind. It is hard, I know, to find an antidote +for a poison that was mingled with a mother's milk. + +The laboring masses, so far as the Catholics are concerned, are +filled with awe and wonder and fear about the church. This fear +began to grow while they were being rocked in their cradles, and +they still imagine that the church has some mysterious power; that +it is in direct communication with some infinite personality that +could, if it desired, strike then dead, or damn their souls forever. +Persons who have no such belief, who care nothing for popes or +priests or churches or heavens or hells or devils or gods, have +very little idea of the power of fear. + +The old dogmas filled the brain with strange monsters. The soul +of the orthodox Christian gropes and wanders and crawls in a kind +of dungeon, where the strained eyes see fearful shapes, and the +frightened flesh shrinks from the touch of serpents. + +The good part of Christianity--that is to say, kindness, morality +--will never go down. The cruel part ought to go down. And by +the cruel part I mean the doctrine of eternal punishment--of allowing +the good to suffer for the bad--allowing innocence to pay the debt +of guilt. So the foolish part of Christianity--that is to say, +the miraculous--will go down. The absurd part must perish. But +there will be no war about it as there was in France. Nobody +believes enough in the foolish part of Christianity now to fight +for it. Nobody believes with intensity enough in miracles to +shoulder a musket. There is probably not a Christian in New York +willing to fight for any story, no matter if the story is so old +that it is covered with moss. No mentally brave and intelligent +man believes in miracles, and no intelligent man cares whether +there was a miracle or not, for the reason that every intelligent +man knows that the miraculous has no possible connection with the +moral. "Thou shalt not steal," is just as good a commandment if +it should turn out that the flood was a drouth. "Thou shalt not +murder," is a good and just and righteous law, and whether any +particular miracle was ever performed or not has nothing to do with +the case. There is no possible relation between these things. + +I am on the side not only of the physically oppressed, but of the +mentally oppressed. I hate those who put lashes on the body, and +I despise those who put the soul in chains. In other words, I am +in favor of liberty. I do not wish that any man should be the +slave of his fellow-men, or that the human race should be the slaves +of any god, real or imaginary. Man has the right to think for +himself, to work for himself, to take care of himself, to get bread +for himself, to get a home for himself. He has a right to his own +opinion about God, and heaven and hell; the right to learn any art +or mystery or trade; the right to work for whom he will, for what +he will, and when he will. + +The world belongs to the human race. There is to be no war in this +country on religious opinions, except a war of words--a conflict +of thoughts, of facts; and in that conflict the hosts of superstition +will go down. They may not be defeated to-day, or to-morrow, or +next year, or during this century, but they are growing weaker day +by day. + +This priest, McGlynn, has the courage to stand up against the +propaganda. What would have been his fate a few years ago? What +would have happened to him in Spain, in Portugal, in Italy--in any +other country that was Catholic--only a few years ago? Yet he +stands here in New York, he refuses to obey God's vicegerent; he +freely gives his mind to an archbishop; he holds the holy Inquisition +in contempt. He has done a great thing. He is undoubtedly an +honest man. He never should have been a Catholic. He has no +business in that church. He has ideas of his own--theories, and +seems to be governed by principles. The Catholic Church is not +his place. If he remains, he must submit, he must kneel in the +humility of abjectness; he must receive on the back of his independence +the lashes of the church. If he remains, he must ask the forgiveness +of slaves for having been a man. If he refuses to submit, the +church will not have him. He will be driven to take his choice-- +to remain a member, humiliated, shunned, or go out into the great, +free world a citizen of the Republic, with the rights, responsibilities, +and duties of an American citizen. + +I believe that Dr. McGlynn is an honest man, and that he really +believes in the land theories of Mr. George. I have no confidence +in his theories, but I have confidence that he is actuated by the +best and noblest motives. + +_Question_. Are you to go on the lecture platform again? + +_Answer_. I expect to after a while. I am now waiting for the +church to catch up. I got so far ahead that I began almost to +sympathize with the clergy. They looked so helpless and talked in +such a weak, wandering, and wobbling kind of way that I felt as +though I had been cruel. From the papers I see that they are busy +trying to find out who the wife of Cain was. I see that the Rev. +Dr. Robinson, of New York, is now wrestling with that problem. He +begins to be in doubt whether Adam was the first man, whether Eve +was the first woman; suspects that there were other races, and that +Cain did not marry his sister, but somebody else's sister, and that +the somebody else was not Cain's brother. One can hardly over- +estimate the importance of these questions, they have such a direct +bearing on the progress of the world. If it should turn out that +Adam was the first man, or that he was not the first man, something +might happen--I am not prepared to say what, but it might. + +It is a curious kind of a spectacle to see a few hundred people +paying a few thousand dollars a year for the purpose of hearing +these great problems discussed: "Was Adam the first man?" "Who +was Cain's wife?" "Has anyone seen a map of the land of Nod?" +"Where are the four rivers that ran murmuring through the groves +of Paradise?" "Who was the snake? How did he walk? What language +did he speak?" This turns a church into a kind of nursery, makes +a cradle of each pew, and gives to each member a rattle with which +he can amuse what he calls his mind. + +The great theologians of Andover--the gentlemen who wear the brass +collars furnished by the dead founder--have been disputing among +themselves as to what is to become of the heathen who fortunately +died before meeting any missionary from that institution. One can +almost afford to be damned hereafter for the sake of avoiding the +dogmas of Andover here. Nothing more absurd and childish has ever +happened--not in the intellectual, but in the theological world. + +There is no need of the Freethinkers saying anything at present. +The work is being done by the church members themselves. They are +beginning to ask questions of the clergy. They are getting tired +of the old ideas--tired of the consolations of eternal pain--tired +of hearing about hell--tired of hearing the Bible quoted or talked +about--tired of the scheme of redemption--tired of the Trinity, of +the plenary inspiration of the barbarous records of a barbarous +people--tired of the patriarchs and prophets--tired of Daniel and +the goats with three horns, and the image with the clay feet, and +the little stone that rolled down the hill--tired of the mud man +and the rib woman--tired of the flood of Noah, of the astronomy of +Joshua, the geology of Moses--tired of Kings and Chronicles and +Lamentations--tired of the lachrymose Jeremiah--tired of the +monstrous, the malicious, and the miraculous. In short, they are +beginning to think. They have bowed their necks to the yoke of +ignorance and fear and impudence and superstition, until they are +weary. They long to be free. They are tired of the services-- +tired of the meaningless prayers--tired of hearing each other say, +"Hear us, good Lord"--tired of the texts, tired of the sermons, +tired of the lies about spontaneous combustion as a punishment for +blasphemy, tired of the bells, and they long to hear the doxology +of superstition. They long to have Common Sense lift its hands in +benediction and dismiss the congregation. + +--_Brooklyn Citizen_, April, 1886. + + +TRIAL OF THE CHICAGO ANARCHISTS. + +_Question_. What do you think of the trial of the Chicago Anarchists +and their chances for a new trial? + +_Answer_. I have paid some attention to the evidence and to the +rulings of the court, and I have read the opinion of the Supreme +Court of Illinois, in which the conviction is affirmed. Of course +these men were tried during a period of great excitement--tried +when the press demanded their conviction--when it was asserted that +society was on the edge of destruction unless these men were hanged. +Under such circumstances, it is not easy to have a fair and impartial +trial. A judge should either sit beyond the reach of prejudice, +in some calm that storms cannot invade, or he should be a kind of +oak that before any blast he would stand erect. It is hard to find +such a place as I have suggested and not easy to find such a man. +We are all influenced more or less by our surroundings, by the +demands and opinions and feelings and prejudices of our fellow- +citizens. There is a personality made up of many individuals known +as society. This personality has prejudices like an individual. +It often becomes enraged, acts without the slightest sense, and +repents at its leisure. It is hard to reason with a mob whether +organized or disorganized, whether acting in the name of the law +or of simple brute force. But in any case, where people refuse to +be governed by reason, they become a mob. + +_Question_. Do you not think that these men had a fair trial? + +_Answer_. I have no doubt that the court endeavored to be fair-- +no doubt that Judge Gary is a perfectly honest, upright man, but +I think his instructions were wrong. He instructed the jury to +the effect that where men have talked in a certain way, and where +the jury believed that the result of such talk might be the commission +of a crime, that such men are responsible for that crime. Of +course, there is neither law nor sense in an instruction like this. +I hold that it must have been the intention of the man making the +remark, or publishing the article, or doing the thing--it must have +been his intention that the crime should be committed. Men differ +as to the effect of words, and a man may say a thing with the best +intentions the result of which is a crime, and he may say a thing +with the worst of intentions and the result may not be a crime. +The Supreme Court of Illinois seemed to have admitted that the +instructions were wrong, but took the ground that it made no +difference with the verdict. This is a dangerous course for the +court of last resort to pursue; neither is it very complimentary +to the judge who tried the case, that his instructions had no effect +upon the jury. Under the instructions of the court below, any man +who had been arrested with the seven Anarchists and of whom it +could be proved that he had ever said a word in favor of any change +in government, or of other peculiar ideas, no matter whether he +knew of the meeting at the Haymarket or not, would have been +convicted. + +I am satisfied that the defendant Fielden never intended to harm +a human being. As a matter of fact, the evidence shows that he +was making a speech in favor of peace at the time of the occurrence. +The evidence also shows that he was an exceedingly honest, industrious, +and a very poor and philanthropic man. + +_Question_. Do you uphold the Anarchists? + +_Answer_. Certainly not. There is no place in this country for +the Anarchist. The source of power here is the people, and to +attack the political power is to attack the people. If the laws +are oppressive, it is the fault of the oppressed. If the laws +touch the poor and leave them without redress, it is the fault of +the poor. They are in a majority. The men who work for their +living are the very men who have the power to make every law that +is made in the United States. There is no excuse for any resort +to violence in this country. The boycotting by trades unions and +by labor organizations is all wrong. Let them resort to legal +methods and to no other. I have not the slightest sympathy with +the methods that have been pursued by Anarchists, or by Socialists, +or by any other class that has resorted to force or intimidation. +The ballot-box is the place to assemble. The will of the people +can be made known in that way, and their will can be executed. At +the same time, I think I understand what has produced the Anarchist, +the Socialist, and the agitator. In the old country, a laboring +man, poorly clad, without quite enough to eat, with a wife in rags, +with a few children asking for bread--this laboring man sees the +idle enjoying every luxury of this life; he sees on the breast of +"my lady" a bonfire of diamonds; he sees "my lord" riding in his +park; he sees thousands of people who from the cradle to the grave +do no useful act; add nothing to the intellectual or the physical +wealth of the world; he sees labor living in the tenement house, +in the hut; idleness and nobility in the mansion and the palace; +the poor man a trespasser everywhere except upon the street, where +he is told to "move on," and in the dusty highways of the country. +That man naturally hates the government--the government of the few, +the government that lives on the unpaid labor of the many, the +government that takes the child from the parents, and puts him in +the army to fight the child of another poor man and woman in some +other country. These Anarchists, these Socialists, these agitators, +have been naturally produced. All the things of which I have spoken +sow in the breast of poverty the seeds of hatred and revolution. +These poor men, hunted by the officers of the law, cornered, +captured, imprisoned, excite the sympathy of other poor men, and +if some are dragged to the gallows and hanged, or beheaded by the +guillotine, they become saints and martyrs, and those who sympathize +with them feel that they have the power, and only the power of +hatred--the power of riot, of destruction--the power of the torch, +of revolution, that is to say, of chaos and anarchy. The injustice +of the higher classes makes the lower criminal. Then there is +another thing. The misery of the poor excites in many noble breasts +sympathy, and the men who thus sympathize wish to better the +condition of their fellows. At first they depend upon reason, upon +calling the attention of the educated and powerful to the miseries +of the poor. Nothing happens, no result follows. The Juggernaut +of society moves on, and the wretches are still crushed beneath +the great wheels. These men who are really good at first, filled +with sympathy, now become indignant--they are malicious, then +destructive and criminal. I do not sympathize with these methods, +but I do sympathize with the general object that all good and +generous people seek to accomplish--namely, to better the condition +of the human race. Only the other day, in Boston, I said that we +ought to take into consideration the circumstances under which the +Anarchists were reared; that we ought to know that every man is +necessarily produced; that man is what he is, not by accident, but +necessity; that society raises its own criminals--that it plows +the soil and cultivates and harvests the crop. And it was telegraphed +that I had defended anarchy. Nothing was ever further from my +mind. There is no place, as I said before, for anarchy in the +United States. In Russia it is another question; in Germany another +question. Every country that is governed by the one man, or governed +by the few, is the victim of anarchy. That _is_ anarchy. That is +the worst possible form of socialism. The definition of socialism +given by its bitterest enemy is, that idlers wish to live on the +labor and on the money of others. Is not this definition--a +definition given in hatred--a perfect definition of every monarchy +and of nearly every government in the world? That is to say: The +idle few live on the labor and the money of others. + +_Question_. Will the Supreme Court take cognizance of this case +and prevent the execution of the judgment? + +_Answer_. Of course it is impossible for me to say. At the same +time, judging from the action of Justice Miller in the case of _The +People vs. Maxwell_, it seems probable that the Supreme Court may +interfere, but I have not examined the question sufficiently to +form an opinion. My feeling about the whole matter is this: That +it will not tend to answer the ideas advanced by these men, to hang +them. Their execution will excite sympathy among thousands and +thousands of people who have never examined and knew nothing of +the theories advanced by the Anarchists, or the Socialists, or +other agitators. In my judgment, supposing the men to be guilty, +it is far better to imprison them. Less harm will be done the +cause of free government. We are not on the edge of any revolution. +No other government is as firmly fixed as ours. No other government +has such a broad and splendid foundation. We have nothing to fear. +Courage and safety can afford to be generous--can afford to act +without haste and without the feeling of revenge. So, for my part, +I hope that the sentence may be commuted, and that these men, if +found guilty at last, may be imprisoned. This course is, in my +judgment, the safest to pursue. It may be that I am led to this +conclusion, because of my belief that every man does as he must. +This belief makes me charitable toward all the world. This belief +makes me doubt the wisdom of revenge. This belief, so far as I am +concerned, blots from our language the word "punishment." Society +has a right to protect itself, and it is the duty of society to +reform, in so far as it may be possible, any member who has committed +what is called a crime. Where the criminal cannot be reformed, +and the safety of society can be secured by his imprisonment, there +is no possible excuse for destroying his life. After these six or +seven men have been, in accordance with the forms of law, strangled +to death, there will be a few pieces of clay, and about them will +gather a few friends, a few admirers--and these pieces will be +buried, and over the grave will be erected a monument, and those +who were executed as criminals will be regarded by thousands as +saints. It is far better for society to have a little mercy. The +effect upon the community will be good. If these men are imprisoned, +people will examine their teachings without prejudice. If they +are executed, seen through the tears of pity, their virtues, their +sufferings, their heroism, will be exaggerated; others may emulate +their deeds, and the gulf between the rich and the poor will be +widened--a gulf that may not close until it has devoured the noblest +and the best. + +--_The Mail and Express_, New York, November 3, 1887. + + +THE STAGE AND THE PULPIT. + +_Question_. What do you think of the Methodist minister at Nashville, +Tenn., who, from his pulpit, denounced the theatrical profession, +without exception, as vicious, and of the congregation which passed +resolutions condemning Miss Emma Abbott for rising in church and +contradicting him, and of the Methodist bishop who likened her to +a "painted courtesan," and invoked the aid of the law "for the +protection of public worship" against "strolling players"? + +_Answer_. The Methodist minister of whom you speak, without doubt +uttered his real sentiments. The church has always regarded the +stage as a rival, and all its utterances have been as malicious as +untrue. It has always felt that the money given to the stage was +in some way taken from the pulpit. It is on this principle that +the pulpit wishes everything, except the church, shut up on Sunday. +It knows that it cannot stand free and open competition. + +All well-educated ministers know that the Bible suffers by a +comparison with Shakespeare. They know that there is nothing within +the lids of what they call "the sacred book" that can for one moment +stand side by side with "Lear" or "Hamlet" or "Julius Caesar" or +"Antony and Cleopatra" or with any other play written by the immortal +man. They know what a poor figure the Davids and the Abrahams and +the Jeremiahs and the Lots, the Jonahs, the Jobs and the Noahs cut +when on the stage with the great characters of Shakespeare. For +these reasons, among others, the pulpit is malicious and hateful +when it thinks of the glories of the stage. What minister is there +now living who could command the prices commanded by Edwin Booth +or Joseph Jefferson; and what two clergymen, by making a combination, +could contend successfully with Robson and Crane? How many clergymen +would it take to command, at regular prices, the audiences that +attend the presentation of Wagner's operas? + +It is very easy to see why the pulpit attacks the stage. Nothing +could have been in more wretched taste than for the minister to +condemn Miss Emma Abbott for rising in church and defending not +only herself, but other good women who are doing honest work for +an honest living. Of course, no minister wishes to be answered; +no minister wishes to have anyone in the congregation call for the +proof. A few questions would break up all the theology in the +world. Ministers can succeed only when congregations keep silent. +When superstition succeeds, doubt must be dumb. + +The Methodist bishop who attacked Miss Abbott simply repeated the +language of several centuries ago. In the laws of England actors +were described as "sturdy vagrants," and this bishop calls them +"strolling players." If we only had some strolling preachers like +Garrick, like Edwin Forrest, or Booth or Barrett, or some crusade +sisters like Mrs. Siddons, Madam Ristori, Charlotte Cushman, or +Madam Modjeska, how fortunate the church would be! + +_Question_. What is your opinion of the relative merits of the +pulpit and the stage, preachers and actors? + +_Answer_. We must remember that the stage presents an ideal life. +It is a world controlled by the imagination--a world in which the +justice delayed in real life may be done, and in which that may +happen which, according to the highest ideal, should happen. It +is a world, for the most part, in which evil does not succeed, in +which the vicious are foiled, in which the right, the honest, the +sincere, and the good prevail. It cultivates the imagination, and +in this respect is far better than the pulpit. The mission of the +pulpit is to narrow and shrivel the human mind. The pulpit denounces +the freedom of thought and of expression; but on the stage the mind +is free, and for thousands of years the poor, the oppressed, the +enslaved, have been permitted to witness plays wherein the slave +was freed, wherein the oppressed became the victor, and where the +downtrodden rose supreme. + +And there is another thing. The stage has always laughed at the +spirit of caste. The low-born lass has loved the prince. All +human distinctions in this ideal world have for the moment vanished, +while honesty and love have triumphed. The stage lightens the +cares of life. The pulpit increases the tears and groans of man. +There is this difference: The pretence of honesty and the honesty +of pretence. + +_Question_. How do you view the Episcopalian scheme of building +a six-million-dollar untaxed cathedral in this city for the purpose +of "uniting the sects," and, when that is accomplished, "unifying +the world in the love of Christ," and thereby abolishing misery? + +_Answer_. I regard the building of an Episcopal cathedral simply +as a piece of religious folly. The world will never be converted +by Christian palaces and temples. Every dollar used in its +construction will be wasted. It will have no tendency to unite +the various sects; on the contrary, it will excite the envy and +jealousy of every other sect. It will widen the gulf between the +Episcopalian and the Methodist, between the Episcopalian and the +Presbyterian, and this hatred will continue until the other sects +build a cathedral just a little larger, and then the envy and the +hatred will be on the other side. + +Religion will never unify the world, and never will give peace to +mankind. There has been more war in the last eighteen hundred +years than during any similar period within historic times. War +will be abolished, if it ever is abolished, not by religion, but +by intelligence. It will be abolished when the poor people of +Germany, of France, of Spain, of England, and other countries find +that they have no interest in war. When those who pay, and those +who do the fighting, find that they are simply destroying their +own interests, wars will cease. + +There ought to be a national court to decide national difficulties. +We consider a community civilized when the individuals of that +community submit their differences to a legal tribunal; but there +being no national court, nations now sustain, as to each other, +the relation of savages--that is to say, each one must defend its +rights by brute force. The establishment of a national court +civilizes nations, and tends to do away with war. + +Christianity caused so much war, so much bloodshed, that Christians +were forced to interpolate a passage to account for their history, +and the interpolated passage is, "I came not to bring peace, but +a sword." Suppose that all the money wasted in cathedrals in the +Middle Ages had been used for the construction of schoolhouses, +academies, and universities, how much better the world would have +been! Suppose that instead of supporting hundreds of thousands of +idle priests, the money had been given to men of science, for the +purpose of finding out something of benefit to the human race here +in this world. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of "Christian charity" and the +"fatherhood of God" as an economic polity for abolishing poverty +and misery? + +_Answer_. Of course, the world is not to be civilized and clothed +and fed through charity. Ordinary charity creates more want than +it alleviates. The greatest possible charity is the greatest +possible justice. When proper wages are paid, when every one is +as willing to give what a thing is worth as he is now willing to +get it for less, the world will be fed and clothed. + +I believe in helping people to help themselves. I believe that +corporations, and successful men, and superior men intellectually, +should do all within their power to keep from robbing their fellow- +men. The superior man should protect the inferior. The powerful +should be the shield of the weak. To-day it is, for the most part, +exactly the other way. The failures among men become the food of +success. + +The world is to grow better and better through intelligence, through +a development of the brain, through taking advantage of the forces +of nature, through science, through chemistry, and through the +arts. Religion can do nothing except to sow the seeds of discord +between men and nations. Commerce, manufactures, and the arts tend +to peace and the well-being of the world. What is known as religion +--that is to say, a system by which this world is wasted in +preparation for another--a system in which the duties of men are +greater to God than to his fellow-men--a system that denies the +liberty of thought and expression--tends only to discord and +retrogression. Of course, I know that religious people cling to +the Bible on account of the good that is in it, and in spite of +the bad, and I know that Freethinkers throw away the Bible on +account of the bad that is in it, in spite of the good. I hope +the time will come when that book will be treated like other books, +and will be judged upon its merits, apart from the fiction of +inspiration. The church has no right to speak of charity, because +it is an object of charity itself. It gives nothing; all it can +do is to receive. At best, it is only a respectable beggar. I +never care to hear one who receives alms pay a tribute to charity. +The one who gives alms should pay this tribute. The amount of +money expended upon churches and priests and all the paraphernalia +of superstition, is more than enough to drive the wolves from the +doors of the world. + +_Question_. Have you noticed the progress Catholics are making in +the Northwest, discontinuing public schools, and forcing people to +send their children to the parochial schools; also, at Pittsburg, +Pa., a Roman Catholic priest has been elected principal of a public +school, and he has appointed nuns as assistant teachers? + +_Answer_. Sectarian schools ought not to be supported by public +taxation. It is the very essence of religious tyranny to compel +a Methodist to support a Catholic school, or to compel a Catholic +to support a Baptist academy. Nothing should be taught in the +public schools that the teachers do not know. Nothing should be +taught about any religion, and nothing should be taught that can, +in any way, be called sectarian. The sciences are not religion. +There is no such thing as Methodist mathematics, or Baptist botany. +In other words, no religion has anything to do with facts. The +facts are all secular; the sciences are all of this world. If +Catholics wish to establish their own schools for the purpose of +preserving their ignorance, they have the right to do so; so has +any other denomination. But in this country the State has no right +to teach any form of religion whatever. Persons of all religions +have the right to advocate and defend any religion in which they +believe, or they have the right to denounce all religions. If the +Catholics establish parochial schools, let them support such schools; +and if they do, they will simply lessen or shorten the longevity +of that particular superstition. It has often been said that +nothing will repeal a bad law as quickly as its enforcement. So, +in my judgment, nothing will destroy any church as certainly, and +as rapidly, as for the members of that church to live squarely up +to the creed. The church is indebted to its hypocrisy to-day for +its life. No orthodox church in the United States dare meet for +the purpose of revising the creed. They know that the whole thing +would fall to pieces. + +Nothing could be more absurd than for a Roman Catholic priest to +teach a public school, assisted by nuns. The Catholic Church is +the enemy of human progress; it teaches every man to throw away +his reason, to deny his observation and experience. + +_Question_. Your opinions have frequently been quoted with regard +to the Anarchists--with regard to their trial and execution. Have +you any objection to stating your real opinion in regard to the +matter? + +_Answer_. Not in the least. I am perfectly willing that all +civilized people should know my opinions on any question in which +others than myself can have any interest. + +I was anxious, in the first place, that the defendants should have +a fair and impartial trial. The worst form of anarchy is when a +judge violates his conscience and bows to a popular demand. A +court should care nothing for public opinion. An honest judge +decides the law, not as it ought to be, but as it is, and the state +of the public mind throws no light upon the question of what the +law then is. + +I thought that some of the rulings on the trial of the Anarchists +were contrary to law. I think so still. I have read the opinion +of the Supreme Court of Illinois, and while the conclusion reached +by that tribunal is the law of that case, I was not satisfied with +the reasons given, and do not regard the opinion as good law. +There is no place for an Anarchist in the United States. There is +no excuse for any resort to force; and it is impossible to use +language too harsh or too bitter in denouncing the spirit of anarchy +in this country. But, no matter how bad a man is, he has the +right to be fairly tried; and if he cannot be fairly tried, then +there is anarchy on the bench. So I was opposed to the execution +of these men. I thought it would have been far better to commute +the punishment to imprisonment, and I said so; and I not only said +so, but I wrote a letter to Governor Oglesby, in which I urged the +commutation of the death sentence. In my judgment, a great mistake +was made. I am on the side of mercy, and if I ever make mistakes, +I hope they will all be made on that side. I have not the slightest +sympathy with the feeling of revenge. Neither have I ever admitted, +and I never shall, that every citizen has not the right to give +his opinion on all that may be done by any servant of the people, +by any judge, or by any court, by any officer--however small or +however great. Each man in the United States is a sovereign, and +a king can freely speak his mind. + +Words were put in my mouth that I never uttered with regard to the +Anarchists. I never said that they were saints, or that they would +be martyrs. What I said was that they would be regarded as saints +and martyrs by many people if they were executed, and that has +happened which I said would happen. I am, so far as I know, on +the side of the right. I wish, above all things, for the preservation +of human liberty. This Government is the best, and we should not +lose confidence in liberty. Property is of very little value in +comparison with freedom. A civilization that rests on slavery is +utterly worthless. I do not believe in sacrificing all there is +of value in the human heart, or in the human brain, for the +preservation of what is called property, or rather, on account of +the fear that what is called "property" may perish. Property is +in no danger while man is free. It is the freedom of man that +gives value to property. It is the happiness of the human race +that creates what we call value. If we preserve liberty, the spirit +of progress, the conditions of development, property will take care +of itself. + +_Question_. The Christian press during the past few months has +been very solicitous as to your health, and has reported you weak +and feeble physically, and not only so, but asserts that there is +a growing disposition on your part to lay down your arms, and even +to join the church. + +_Answer_. I do not think the Christian press has been very solicitous +about my _health_. Neither do I think that my health will ever +add to theirs. The fact is, I am exceedingly well, and my throat +is better than it has been for many years. Any one who imagines +that I am disposed to lay down my arms can read by Reply to Dr. +Field in the November number of the _North American Review_. I +see no particular difference in myself, except this; that my hatred +of superstition becomes a little more and more intense; on the +other hand, I see more clearly, that all the superstitions were +naturally produced, and I am now satisfied that every man does as +he must, including priests and editors of religious papers. + +This gives me hope for the future. We find that certain soil, with +a certain amount of moisture and heat, produces good corn, and we +find when the soil is poor, or when the ground is too wet, or too +dry, that no amount of care can, by any possibility, produce good +corn. In other words, we find that the fruit, that is to say, the +result, whatever it may be, depends absolutely upon the conditions. +This being so, we will in time find out the conditions that produce +good, intelligent, honest men. This is the hope for the future. +We shall know better than to rely on what is called reformation, +or regeneration, or a resolution born of ignorant excitement. We +shall rely, then, on the eternal foundation--the fact in nature-- +that like causes produce like results, and that good conditions +will produce good people. + +_Question_. Every now and then some one challenges you to a +discussion, and nearly every one who delivers lectures, or speeches, +attacking you, or your views, says that you are afraid publicly to +debate these questions. Why do you not meet these men, and why do +you not answer these attacks? + +_Answer_. In the first place, it would be a physical impossibility +to reply to all the attacks that have been made--to all the "answers." +I receive these attacks, and these answers, and these lectures +almost every day. Hundreds of them are delivered every year. A +great many are put in pamphlet form, and, of course, copies are +received by me. Some of them I read, at least I look them over, +and I have never yet received one worthy of the slightest notice, +never one in which the writer showed the slightest appreciation of +the questions under discussion. All these pamphlets are about the +same, and they could, for the matter, have all been produced by +one person. They are impudent, shallow, abusive, illogical, and +in most respects, ignorant. So far as the lecturers are concerned, +I know of no one who has yet said anything that challenges a reply. +I do not think a single paragraph has been produced by any of the +gentlemen who have replied to me in public, that is now remembered +by reason of its logic or beauty. I do not feel called upon to +answer any argument that does not at least appear to be of value. +Whenever any article appears worthy of an answer, written in a kind +and candid spirit, it gives me pleasure to reply. + +I should like to meet some one who speaks by authority, some one +who really understands his creed, but I cannot afford to waste time +on little priests or obscure parsons or ignorant laymen. + +--_The Truth Seeker_, New York, January 14, 1888. + + +ROSCOE CONKLING. + +_Question_. What is Mr. Conkling's place in the political history +of the United States? + +_Answer_. Upon the great questions Mr. Conkling has been right. +During the war he was always strong and clear, unwavering and +decided. His position was always known. He was right on +reconstruction, on civil rights, on the currency, and, so far as +I know, on all important questions. He will be remembered as an +honest, fearless man. He was admired for his known integrity. He +was never even suspected of being swayed by an improper consideration. +He was immeasurably above purchase. + +His popularity rested upon his absolute integrity. He was not +adapted for a leader, because he would yield nothing. He had no +compromise in his nature. He went his own road and he would not +turn aside for the sake of company. His individuality was too +marked and his will too imperious to become a leader in a republic. +There is a great deal of individuality in this country, and a leader +must not appear to govern and must not demand obedience. In the +Senate he was a leader. He settled with no one. + +_Question_. What essentially American idea does he stand for? + +_Answer_. It is a favorite saying in this country that the people +are sovereigns. Mr. Conkling felt this to be true, and he exercised +what he believed to be his rights. He insisted upon the utmost +freedom for himself. He settled with no one but himself. He stands +for individuality--for the freedom of the citizen, the independence +of the man. No lord, no duke, no king was ever prouder of his +title or his place than Mr. Conkling was of his position and his +power. He was thoroughly American in every drop of his blood. + +_Question_. What have you to say about his having died with sealed +lips? + +_Answer_. Mr. Conkling was too proud to show wounds. He did not +tell his sorrows to the public. It seemed sufficient to him to +know the facts himself. He seemed to have great confidence in +time, and he had the patience to wait. Of course he could have +told many things that would have shed light on many important +events, but for my part I think he acted in the noblest way. + +He was a striking and original figure in our politics. He stood +alone. I know of no one like him. He will be remembered as a +fearless and incorruptible statesman, a great lawyer, a magnificent +speaker, and an honest man. + +--_The Herald_, New York, April 19, 1888. + + +THE CHURCH AND THE STAGE. + +_Question_. I have come to talk with you a little about the drama. +Have you any decided opinions on that subject? + +_Answer_. Nothing is more natural than imitation. The little +child with her doll, telling it stories, putting words in its mouth, +attributing to it the feelings of happiness and misery, is the +simple tendency toward the drama. Little children always have +plays, they imitate their parents, they put on the clothes of their +elders, they have imaginary parties, carry on conversation with +imaginary persons, have little dishes filled with imaginary food, +pour tea and coffee out of invisible pots, receive callers, and +repeat what they have heard their mothers say. This is simply the +natural drama, an exercise of the imagination which always has been +and which, probably, always will be, a source of great pleasure. +In the early days of the world nothing was more natural than for +the people to re-enact the history of their country--to represent +the great heroes, the great battles, and the most exciting scenes +the history of which has been preserved by legend. I believe this +tendency to re-enact, to bring before the eyes the great, the +curious, and pathetic events of history, has been universal. All +civilized nations have delighted in the theatre, and the greatest +minds in many countries have been devoted to the drama, and, without +doubt, the greatest man about whom we know anything devoted his +life to the production of plays. + +_Question_. I would like to ask you why, in your opinion as a +student of history, has the Protestant Church always been so bitterly +opposed to the theatre? + +_Answer_. I believe the early Christians expected the destruction +of the world. They had no idea of remaining here, in the then +condition of things, but for a few days. They expected that Christ +would come again, that the world would be purified by fire, that +all the unbelievers would be burned up and that the earth would +become a fit habitation for the followers of the Saviour. +Protestantism became as ascetic as the early Christians. It is +hard to conceive of anybody believing in the "Five Points" of John +Calvin going to any place of amusement. The creed of Protestantism +made life infinitely sad and made man infinitely responsible. +According to this creed every man was liable at any moment to be +summoned to eternal pain; the most devout Christian was not absolutely +sure of salvation. This life was a probationary one. Everybody +was considered as waiting on the dock of time, sitting on his trunk, +expecting the ship that was to bear him to an eternity of good or +evil--probably evil. They were in no state of mind to enjoy +burlesque or comedy, and, so far as tragedy was concerned, their +own lives and their own creeds were tragic beyond anything that +could by any possibility happen in this world. A broken heart was +nothing to be compared with a damned soul; the afflictions of a +few years, with the flames of eternity. This, to say the least of +it, accounts, in part, for the hatred that Protestantism always +bore toward the stage. Of course, the churches have always regarded +the theatre as a rival and have begrudged the money used to support +the stage. You know that Macaulay said the Puritans objected to +bear-baiting, not because they pitied the bears, but because they +hated to see the people enjoy themselves. There is in this at +least a little truth. Orthodox religion has always been and always +will be the enemy of happiness. This world is not the place for +enjoyment. This is the place to suffer. This is the place to +practice self-denial, to wear crowns of thorns; the other world is +the place for joy, provided you are fortunate enough to travel the +narrow, grass-grown path. Of course, wicked people can be happy +here. People who care nothing for the good of others, who live +selfish and horrible lives, are supposed by Christians to enjoy +themselves; consequently, they will be punished in another world. +But whoever carried the cross of decency, and whoever denied himself +to that degree that he neither stole nor forged nor murdered, will +be paid for this self-denial in another world. And whoever said +that he preferred a prayer-meeting with five or six queer old men +and two or three very aged women, with one or two candles, and who +solemnly affirmed that he enjoyed that far more than he could a +play of Shakespeare, was expected with much reason, I think, to be +rewarded in another world. + +_Question_. Do you think that church people were justified in +their opposition to the drama in the days when Congreve, Wycherley +and Ben Jonson were the popular favorites? + +_Answer_. In that time there was a great deal of vulgarity in many +of the plays. Many things were said on the stage that the people +of this age would not care to hear, and there was not very often +enough wit in the saying to redeem it. My principal objection to +Congreve, Wycherley and most of their contemporaries is that the +plays were exceedingly poor and had not much in them of real, +sterling value. The Puritans, however, did not object on account +of the vulgarity; that was not the honest objection. No play was +ever put upon the English stage more vulgar then the "Table Talk" +of Martin Luther, and many sermons preached in that day were almost +unrivaled for vulgarity. The worst passages in the Old Testament +were quoted with a kind of unction that showed a love for the +vulgar. And, in my judgment, the worst plays were as good as the +sermons, and the theatre of that time was better adapted to civilize +mankind, to soften the human heart, and to make better men and +better women, than the pulpit of that day. The actors, in my +judgment, were better people than the preachers. They had in them +more humanity, more real goodness and more appreciation of beauty, +of tenderness, of generosity and of heroism. Probably no religion +was ever more thoroughly hateful than Puritanism. But all religionists +who believe in an eternity of pain would naturally be opposed to +everything that makes this life better; and, as a matter of fact, +orthodox churches have been the enemies of painting, of sculpture, +of music and the drama. + +_Question_. What, in your estimation, is the value of the drama +as a factor in our social life at the present time? + +_Answer_. I believe that the plays of Shakespeare are the most +valuable things in the possession of the human race. No man can +read and understand Shakespeare without being an intellectually +developed man. If Shakespeare could be as widely circulated as +the Bible--if all the Bible societies would break the plates they +now have and print Shakespeare, and put Shakespeare in all the +languages of the world, nothing would so raise the intellectual +standard of mankind. Think of the different influence on men +between reading Deuteronomy and "Hamlet" and "King Lear"; between +studying Numbers and the "Midsummer Night's Dream"; between pondering +over the murderous crimes and assassinations in Judges, and studying +"The Tempest" or "As You Like It." Man advances as he develops +intellectually. The church teaches obedience. The man who reads +Shakespeare has his intellectual horizon enlarged. He begins to +think for himself, and he enjoys living in a new world. The +characters of Shakespeare become his acquaintances. He admires +the heroes, the philosophers; he laughs with the clowns, and he +almost adores the beautiful women, the pure, loving, and heroic +women born of Shakespeare's heart and brain. The stage has amused +and instructed the world. It had added to the happiness of mankind. +It has kept alive all arts. It is in partnership with all there +is of beauty, of poetry, and expression. It goes hand in hand with +music, with painting, with sculpture, with oratory, with philosophy, +and history. The stage has humor. It abhors stupidity. It despises +hypocrisy. It holds up to laughter the peculiarities, the +idiosyncrasies, and the little insanities of mankind. It thrusts +the spear of ridicule through the shield of pretence. It laughs +at the lugubrious and it has ever taught and will, in all probability, +forever teach, that Man is more than a title, and that human love +laughs at all barriers, at all the prejudices of society and caste +that tend to keep apart two loving hearts. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of the progress of the drama in +educating the artistic sense of the community as compared with the +progress of the church as an educator of the moral sentiment? + +_Answer_. Of course, the stage is not all good, nor is--and I say +this with becoming modesty--the pulpit all bad. There have been +bad actors and there have been good preachers. There has been no +improvement in plays since Shakespeare wrote. There has been great +improvement in theatres, and the tendency seems to me be toward +higher artistic excellence in the presentation of plays. As we +become slowly civilized we will constantly demand more artistic +excellence. There will always be a class satisfied with the lowest +form of dramatic presentation, with coarse wit, with stupid but +apparent jokes, and there will always be a class satisfied with +almost anything; but the class demanding the highest, the best, +will constantly increase in numbers, and the other classes will, +in all probability, correspondingly decrease. The church has ceased +to be an educator. In an artistic direction it never did anything +except in architecture, and that ceased long ago. The followers +of to-day are poor copyists. The church has been compelled to be +a friend of, or rather to call in the assistance of, music. As a +moral teacher, the church always has been and always will be a +failure. The pulpit, to use the language of Frederick Douglass, +has always "echoed the cry of the street." Take our own history. +The church was the friend of slavery. That institution was defended +in nearly every pulpit. The Bible was the auction-block on which +the slave-mother stood while her child was sold from her arms. +The church, for hundreds of years, was the friend and defender of +the slave-trade. I know of no crime that has not been defended by +the church, in one form or another. The church is not a pioneer; +it accepts a new truth, last of all, and only when denial has become +useless. The church preaches the doctrine of forgiveness. This +doctrine sells crime on credit. The idea that there is a God who +rewards and punishes, and who can reward, if he so wishes, the +meanest and vilest of the human race, so that he will be eternally +happy, and can punish the best of the human race, so that he will +be eternally miserable, is subversive of all morality. Happiness +ought to be the result of good actions. Happiness ought to spring +from the seed a man sows himself. It ought not to be a reward, it +ought to be a consequence, and there ought to be no idea that there +is any being who can step between action and consequence. To preach +that a man can abuse his wife and children, rob his neighbors, +slander his fellow-citizens, and yet, a moment or two before he +dies, by repentance become a glorified angel is, in my judgment, +immoral. And to preach that a man can be a good man, kind to his +wife and children, an honest man, paying his debts, and yet, for +the lack of a certain belief, the moment after he is dead, be sent +to an eternal prison, is also immoral. So that, according to my +opinion, while the church teaches men many good things, it also +teaches doctrines subversive of morality. If there were not in +the whole world a church, the morality of man, in my judgment, would +be the gainer. + +_Question_. What do you think of the treatment of the actor by +society in his social relations? + +_Answer_. For a good many years the basis of society has been the +dollar. Only a few years ago all literary men were ostracized +because they had no money; neither did they have a reading public. +If any man produced a book he had to find a patron--some titled +donkey, some lauded lubber, in whose honor he could print a few +well-turned lies on the fly-leaf. If you wish to know the degradation +of literature, read the dedication written by Lord Bacon to James +I., in which he puts him beyond all kings, living and dead--beyond +Caesar and Marcus Aurelius. In those days the literary man was a +servant, a hack. He lived in Grub Street. He was only one degree +above the sturdy vagrant and the escaped convict. Why was this? +He had no money and he lived in an age when money was the fountain +of respectability. Let me give you another instance: Mozart, +whose brain was a fountain of melody, was forced to eat at table +with coachmen, with footmen and scullions. He was simply a servant +who was commanded to make music for a pudding-headed bishop. The +same was true of the great painters, and of almost all other men +who rendered the world beautiful by art, and who enriched the +languages of mankind. The basis of respectability was the dollar. + +Now that the literary man has an intelligent public he cares nothing +for the ignorant patron. The literary man makes money. The world +is becoming civilized and the literary man stands high. In England, +however, if Charles Darwin had been invited to dinner, and there +had been present some sprig of nobility, some titled vessel holding +the germs of hereditary disease, Darwin would have been compelled +to occupy a place beneath him. But I have hopes even for England. +The same is true of the artist. The man who can now paint a picture +by which he receives from five thousand to fifty thousand dollars, +is necessarily respectable. The actor who may realize from one to +two thousand dollars a night, or even more, is welcomed in the +stupidest and richest society. So with the singers and with all +others who instruct and amuse mankind. Many people imagine that +he who amuses them must be lower than they. This, however, is +hardly possible. I believe in the aristocracy of the brain and +heart; in the aristocracy of intelligence and goodness, and not +only appreciate but admire the great actor, the great painter, the +great sculptor, the marvelous singer. In other words, I admire +all people who tend to make this life richer, who give an additional +thought to this poor world. + +_Question_. Do you think this liberal movement, favoring the better +class of plays, inaugurated by the Rev. Dr. Abbott, will tend to +soften the sentiment of the orthodox churches against the stage? + +_Answer_. I have not read what Dr. Abbott has written on this +subject. From your statement of his position, I think he entertains +quite a sensible view, and, when we take into consideration that +he is a minister, a miraculously sensible view. It is not the +business of the dramatist, the actor, the painter or the sculptor +to teach what the church calls morality. The dramatist and the +actor ought to be truthful, ought to be natural--that is to say, +truthfully and naturally artistic. He should present pictures of +life properly chosen, artistically constructed; an exhibition of +emotions truthfully done, artistically done. If vice is presented +naturally, no one will fall in love with vice. If the better +qualities of the human heart are presented naturally, no one can +fail to fall in love with them. But they need not be presented +for that purpose. The object of the artist is to present truthfully +and artistically. He is not a Sunday school teacher. He is not +to have the moral effect eternally in his mind. It is enough for +him to be truly artistic. Because, as I have said, a great many +times, the greatest good is done by indirection. For instance, a +man lives a good, noble, honest and lofty life. The value of that +life would be destroyed if he kept calling attention to it--if he +said to all who met him, "Look at me!" he would become intolerable. +The truly artistic speaks of perfection; that is to say, of harmony, +not only of conduct, but of harmony and proportion in everything. +The pulpit is always afraid of the passions, and really imagines +that it has some influence on men and women, keeping them in the +path of virtue. No greater mistake was ever made. Eternally +talking and harping on that one subject, in my judgment, does harm. +Forever keeping it in the mind by reading passages from the Bible, +by talking about the "corruption of the human heart," of the "power +of temptation," of the scarcity of virtue, of the plentifulness of +vice--all these platitudes tend to produce exactly what they are +directed against. + +_Question_. I fear, Colonel, that I have surprised you into agreeing +with a clergyman. The following are the points made by the Rev. +Dr. Abbott in his editorial on the theatre, and it seems to me that +you and he think very much alike--on that subject. The points are +these: + +1. It is not the function of the drama to teach moral lessons. + +2. A moral lesson neither makes nor mars either a drama or a novel. + +3. The moral quality of a play does not depend upon the result. + +4. The real function of the drama is like that of the novel--not +to amuse, not to excite; but to portray life, and so minister to +it. And as virtue and vice, goodness and evil, are the great +fundamental facts of life, they must, in either serious story or +serious play, be portrayed. If they are so portrayed that the vice +is alluring and the virtue repugnant, the play or story is immoral; +if so portrayed that the vice is repellant and the virtue alluring, +they play or story is moral. + +5. The church has no occasion to ask the theatre to preach; though +if it does preach we have a right to demand that its ethical +doctrines be pure and high. But we have a right to demand that in +its pictures of life it so portrays vice as to make it abhorrent, +and so portrays virtue as to make it attractive. + +_Answer_. I agree in most of what you have read, though I must +confess that to find a minister agreeing with me, or to find myself +agreeing with a minister, makes me a little uncertain. All art, +in my judgment, is for the sake of expression--equally true of the +drama as of painting and sculpture. No poem touches the human +heart unless it touches the universal. It must, at some point, +move in unison with the great ebb and flow of things. The same is +true of the play, of a piece of music or a statue. I think that +all real artists, in all departments, touch the universal and when +they do the result is good; but the result need not have been a +consideration. There is an old story that at first there was a +temple erected upon the earth by God himself; that afterward this +temple was shivered into countless pieces and distributed over the +whole earth, and that all the rubies and diamonds and precious +stones since found are parts of that temple. Now, if we could +conceive of a building, or of anything involving all Art, and that +it had been scattered abroad, then I would say that whoever find +and portrays truthfully a thought, an emotion, a truth, has found +and restored one of the jewels. + +--_Dramatic Mirror_, New York, April 21, 1888. + + +PROTECTION AND FREE TRADE. + +_Question_. Do you take much interest in politics, Colonel +Ingersoll? + +_Answer_. I take as much interest in politics as a Republican +ought who expects nothing and who wants nothing for himself. I +want to see this country again controlled by the Republican party. +The present administration has not, in my judgment, the training +and the political intelligence to decide upon the great economic +and financial questions. There are a great many politicians and +but few statesmen. Here, where men have to be elected every two +or six years, there is hardly time for the officials to study +statesmanship--they are busy laying pipes and fixing fences for +the next election. Each one feels much like a monkey at a fair, +on the top of a greased pole, and puts in the most of his time +dodging stones and keeping from falling. I want to see the party +in power best qualified, best equipped, to administer the +Government. + +_Question_. What do you think will be the particular issue of the +coming campaign? + +_Answer_. That question has already been answered. The great +question will be the tariff. Mr. Cleveland imagines that the +surplus can be gotten rid of by a reduction of the tariff. If the +reduction is so great as to increase the demand for foreign articles, +the probability is that the surplus will be increased. The surplus +can surely be done away with by either of two methods; first make +the tariff prohibitory; second, have no tariff. But if the tariff +is just at that point where the foreign goods could pay it and yet +undersell the American so as to stop home manufactures, then the +surplus would increase. + +As a rule we can depend on American competition to keep prices at +a reasonable rate. When that fails we have at all times the +governing power in our hands--that is to say, we can reduce the +tariff. In other words, the tariff is not for the benefit of the +manufacturer--the protection is not for the mechanic or the capitalist +--it is for the whole country. I do not believe in protecting silk +simply to help the town of Paterson, but I am for the protection +of the manufacture, because, in my judgment, it helps the entire +country, and because I know that it has given us a far better +article of silk at a far lower price than we obtained before the +establishment of those factories. + +I believe in the protection of every industry that needs it, to +the end that we may make use of every kind of brain and find use +for all human capacities. In this way we will produce greater and +better people. A nation of agriculturalists or a nation of mechanics +would become narrow and small, but where everything is done, then +the brain is cultivated on every side, from artisan to artist. +That is to say, we become thinkers as well as workers; muscle and +mind form a partnership. + +I don't believe that England is particularly interested in the +welfare of the United States. It never seemed probable to me that +men like Godwin Smith sat up nights fearing that we in some way +might injure ourselves. To use a phrase that will be understood +by theologians at least, we ought to "copper" all English advice. + +The free traders say that there ought to be no obstructions placed +by governments between buyers and sellers. If we want to make the +trade, of course there should be no obstruction, but if we prefer +that Americans should trade with Americans--that Americans should +make what Americans want--then, so far as trading with foreigners +is concerned, there ought to be an obstruction. + +I am satisfied that the United States could get along if the rest +of the world should be submerged, and I want to see this country +in such a condition that it can be independent of the rest of +mankind. + +There is more mechanical genius in the United States than in the +rest of the world, and this genius has been fostered and developed +by protection. The Democracy wish to throw all this away--to make +useless this skill, this ingenuity, born of generations of application +and thought. These deft and marvelous hands that create the +countless things of use and beauty to be worth no more than the +common hands of ignorant delvers and shovelers. To the extent that +thought is mingled with labor, labor becomes honorable and its +burden lighter. + +Thousands of millions of dollars have been invested on the faith +of this policy--millions and millions of people are this day earning +their bread by reason of protection, and they are better housed +and better fed and better clothed than any other workmen on the +globe. + +The intelligent people of this country will not be satisfied with +President Cleveland's platform--with his free trade primer. They +believe in good wages for good work, and they know that this is +the richest nation in the world. The Republic is worth at least +sixty billion dollars. This vast sum is the result of labor, and +this labor has been protected either directly or indirectly. This +vast sum has been made by the farmer, the mechanic, the laborer, +the miner, the inventor. + +Protection has given work and wages to the mechanic and a market +to the farmer. The interests of all laborers in America--all men +who work--are identical. If the farmer pays more for his plow he +gets more for his plowing. In old times, when the South manufactured +nothing and raised only raw material--for the reason that its labor +was enslaved and could not be trusted with education enough to +become skillful--it was in favor of free trade; it wanted to sell +the raw material to England and buy the manufactured article where +it could buy the cheapest. Even under those circumstances it was +a short-sighted and unpatriotic policy. Now everything is changing +in the South. They are beginning to see that he who simply raises +raw material is destined to be forever poor. For instance, the +farmer who sells corn will never get rich; the farmer should sell +pork and beef and horses. So a nation, a State, that parts with +its raw material, loses nearly all the profits, for the reason that +the profit rises with the skill requisite to produce. It requires +only brute strength to raise cotton; it requires something more to +spin it, to weave it, and the more beautiful the fabric the greater +the skill, and consequently the higher the wages and the greater +the profit. In other words, the more thought is mingled with labor +the more valuable is the result. + +Besides all this, protection is the mother of economy; the cheapest +at last, no matter whether the amount paid is less or more. It is +far better for us to make glass than to sell sand to other countries; +the profit on sand will be exceedingly small. + +The interests of this country are united; they depend upon each +other. You destroy one and the effect upon all the rest may be +disastrous. Suppose we had free trade to-day, what would become +of the manufacturing interests to-morrow? The value of property +would fall thousands of millions of dollars in an instant. The +fires would die out in thousands and thousands of furnaces, +innumerable engines would stop, thousands and thousands would stop +digging coal and iron and steel. What would the city that had been +built up by the factories be worth? What would be the effect on +farms in that neighborhood? What would be the effect on railroads, +on freights, on business--what upon the towns through which they +passed? Stop making iron in Pennsylvania, and the State would be +bankrupt in an hour. Give us free trade, and New Jersey, Connecticut +and many other States would not be worth one dollar an acre. + +If a man will think of the connection between all industries--of +the dependence and inter-dependence of each on all; of the subtle +relations between all human pursuits--he will see that to destroy +some of the grand interest makes financial ruin and desolation. +I am not talking now about a tariff that is too high, because that +tariff does not produce a surplus--neither am I asking to have that +protected which needs no protection--I am only insisting that all +the industries that have been fostered and that need protection +should be protected, and that we should turn our attention to the +interests of our own country, letting other nations take care of +themselves. If every American would use only articles produced by +Americans--if they would wear only American cloth, only American +silk--if we would absolutely stand by each other, the prosperity +of this nation would be the marvel of human history. We can live +at home, and we have now the ingenuity, the intelligence, the +industry to raise from nature everything that a nation needs. + +_Question_. What have you to say about the claim that Mr. Cleveland +does not propose free trade? + +_Answer_. I suppose that he means what he said. His argument was +all for free trade, and he endeavored to show to the farmer that +he lost altogether more money by protection, because he paid a +higher price for manufactured articles and received no more for +what he had to sell. This certainly was an argument in favor of +free trade. And there is no way to decrease the surplus except to +prohibit the importation of foreign articles, which certainly Mr. +Cleveland is not in favor of doing, or to reduce the tariff to a +point so low that no matter how much may be imported the surplus +will be reduced. If the message means anything it means free trade, +and if there is any argument in it it is an argument in favor of +absolutely free trade. The party, not willing to say "free trade" +uses the word "reform." This is simply a mask and a pretence. +The party knows that the President made a mistake. The party, +however, is so situated that it cannot get rid of Cleveland, and +consequently must take him with his mistake--they must take him +with his message, and then show that all he intended by "free trade" +was "reform." + +_Question_. Who do you think ought to be nominated at Chicago? + +_Answer_. Personally, I am for General Gresham. I am saying +nothing against the other prominent candidates. They have their +friends, and many of them are men of character and capacity, and +would make good Presidents. But I know of no man who has a better +record than Gresham, and of no man who, in my judgment, would +receive a larger number of votes. I know of no Republican who +would not support Judge Gresham. I have never heard one say that +he had anything against him or know of any reason why he should +not be voted for. He is a man of great natural capacity. He is +candid and unselfish. He has for many years been engaged in the +examination and decision of important questions, of good principles, +and consequently he has a trained mind. He knows how to take hold +of a question, to get at a fact, to discover in a multitude of +complications the real principle--the heart of the case. He has +always been a man of affairs. He is not simply a judge--that is +to say, a legal pair of scales--he knows the effect of his decision +on the welfare of communities--he is not governed entirely by +precedents--he has opinions of his own. In the next place, he is +a man of integrity in all the relations of life. He is not a seeker +after place, and, so far as I know, he has done nothing for the +purpose of inducing any human being to favor his nomination. I +have never spoken to him on the subject. + +In the West he has developed great strength, in fact, his popularity +has astonished even his best friends. The great mass of people +want a perfectly reliable man--one who will be governed by his best +judgment and by a desire to do the fair and honorable thing. It +has been stated that the great corporations might not support him +with much warmth for the reason that he has failed to decide certain +cases in their favor. I believe that he has decided the law as he +believed it to be, and that he has never been influenced in the +slightest degree, by the character, position, or the wealth of the +parties before him. It may be that some of the great financiers, +the manipulators, the creators of bonds and stocks, the blowers of +financial bubbles, will not support him and will not contribute +any money for the payment of election expenses, because they are +perfectly satisfied that they could not make any arrangements with +him to get the money back, together with interest thereon, but the +people of this country are intelligent enough to know what that +means, and they will be patriotic enough to see to it that no man +needs to bow or bend or cringe to the rich to attain the highest +place. + +The possibility is that Mr. Blaine could have been nominated had +he not withdrawn, but having withdrawn, of course the party is +released. Others were induced to become candidates, and under +these circumstances Mr. Blaine has hardly the right to change his +mind, and certainly other persons ought not to change it for him. + +_Question_. Do you think that the friends of Gresham would support +Blaine if he should be nominated? + +_Answer_. Undoubtedly they would. If they go into convention they +must abide the decision. It would be dishonorable to do that which +you would denounce in others. Whoever is nominated ought to receive +the support of all good Republicans. No party can exist that will +not be bound by its own decision. When the platform is made, then +is the time to approve or reject. The conscience of the individual +cannot be bound by the action of party, church or state. But when +you ask a convention to nominate your candidate, you really agree +to stand by the choice of the convention. Principles are of more +importance than candidates. As a rule, men who refuse to support +the nominee, while pretending to believe in the platform, are giving +an excuse for going over to the enemy. It is a pretence to cover +desertion. I hope that whoever may be nominated at Chicago will +receive the cordial support of the entire party, of every man who +believes in Republican principles, who believes in good wages for +good work, and has confidence in the old firms of "Mind and Muscle," +of "Head and Hand." + +--_New York Press_, May 27, 1888. + + +LABOR, AND TARIFF REFORM. + +_Question_. What, in your opinion, is the condition of labor in +this country as compared with that abroad? + +_Answer_. In the first place, it is self-evident that if labor +received more in other lands than in this the tide of emigration +would be changed. The workingmen would leave our shores. People +who believe in free trade are always telling us that the laboring +man is paid much better in Germany than in the United States, and +yet nearly every ship that comes from Germany is crammed with +Germans, who, for some unaccountable reason, prefer to leave a +place where they are doing well and come to one where they must do +worse. + +The same thing can be said of Denmark and Sweden, of England, +Scotland, Ireland and of Italy. The truth is, that in all those +lands the laboring man can earn just enough to-day to do the work +of to-morrow; everything he earns is required to get food enough +in his body and rags enough on his back to work from day to day, +to toil from week to week. There are only three luxuries within +his reach--air, light, and water; probably a fourth might be added +--death. + +In those countries the few own the land, the few have the capital, +the few make the laws, and the laboring man is not a power. His +opinion in neither asked nor heeded. The employers pay as little +as they can. When the world becomes civilized everybody will want +to pay what things are worth, but now capital is perfectly willing +that labor shall remain at the starvation line. Competition on +every hand tends to put down wages. The time will come when the +whole community will see that justice is economical. If you starve +laboring men you increase crime; you multiply, as they do in England, +workhouses, hospitals and all kinds of asylums, and these public +institutions are for the purpose of taking care of the wrecks that +have been produced by greed and stinginess and meanness--that is +to say, by the ignorance of capital. + +_Question_. What effect has the protective tariff on the condition +of labor in this country? + +_Answer_. To the extent that the tariff keeps out the foreign +article it is a direct protection to American labor. Everything +in this country is on a larger scale than in any other. There is +far more generosity among the manufacturers and merchants and +millionaires and capitalists of the United States than among those +of any other country, although they are bad enough and mean enough +here. + +But the great thing for the laboring man in the United States is +that he is regarded as a man. He is a unit of political power. +His vote counts just as much as that of the richest and most +powerful. The laboring man has to be consulted. The candidate +has either to be his friend or to pretend to be his friend, before +he can succeed. A man running for the presidency could not say +the slightest word against the laboring man, or calculated to put +a stain upon industry, without destroying every possible chance of +success. Generally, every candidate tries to show that he is a +laboring man, or that he was a laboring man, or that his father +was before him. There is in this country very little of the spirit +of caste--the most infamous spirit that ever infested the heartless +breast of the brainless head of a human being. + +_Question_. What will be the effect on labor of a departure in +American policy in the direction of free trade? + +_Answer_. If free trade could be adopted to-morrow there would be +an instant shrinkage of values in this country. Probably the +immediate loss would equal twenty billion dollars--that is to say, +one-third of the value of the country. No one can tell its extent. +All thing are so interwoven that to destroy one industry cripples +another, and the influence keeps on until it touches the circumference +of human interests. + +I believe that labor is a blessing. It never was and never will +be a curse. It is a blessed thing to labor for your wife and +children, for your father and mother, and for the ones you love. +It is a blessed thing to have an object in life--something to do-- +something to call into play your best thoughts, to develop your +faculties and to make you a man. How beautiful, how charming, are +the dreams of the young mechanic, the artist, the musician, the +actor and the student. How perfectly stupid must be the life of +a young man with nothing to do, no ambition, no enthusiasm--that +is to say, nothing of the divine in him; the young man with an +object in life, of whose brain a great thought, a great dream has +taken possession, and in whose heart there is a great, throbbing +hope. He looks forward to success--to wife, children, home--all +the blessings and sacred joys of human life. He thinks of wealth +and fame and honor, and of a long, genial, golden, happy autumn. + +Work gives the feeling of independence, of self-respect. A man +who does something necessarily puts a value on himself. He feels +that he is a part of the world's force. The idler--no matter what +he says, no matter how scornfully he may look at the laborer--in +his very heart knows exactly what he is; he knows that he is a +counterfeit, a poor worthless imitation of a man. + +But there is a vast difference between work and what I call "toil." +What must be the life of a man who can earn only one dollar or two +dollars a day? If this man has a wife and a couple of children +how can the family live? What must they eat? What must they wear? +From the cradle to the coffin they are ignorant of any luxury of +life. If the man is sick, if one of the children dies, how can +doctors and medicines be paid for? How can the coffin or the grave +be purchased? These people live on what might be called "the snow +line"--just at that point where trees end and the mosses begin. +What are such lives worth? The wages of months would hardly pay +for the ordinary dinner of the family of a rich man. The savings +of a whole life would not purchase one fashionable dress, or the +lace on it. Such a man could not save enough during his whole life +to pay for the flowers of a fashionable funeral. + +And yet how often hundreds of thousands of persons, who spend +thousands of dollars every year on luxuries, really wonder why the +laboring people should complain. They are astonished when a car +driver objects to working fourteen hours a day. Men give millions +of dollars to carry the gospel to the heathen, and leave their own +neighbors without bread; and these same people insist on closing +libraries and museums of art on Sunday, and yet Sunday is the only +day that these institutions can be visited by the poor. + +They even want to stop the street cars so that these workers, these +men and women, cannot go to the parks or the fields on Sunday. +They want stages stopped on fashionable avenues so that the rich +may not be disturbed in their prayers and devotions. + +The condition of the workingman, even in America, is bad enough. +If free trade will not reduce wages what will? If manufactured +articles become cheaper the skilled laborers of America must work +cheaper or stop producing the articles. Every one knows that most +of the value of a manufactured article comes from labor. Think of +the difference between the value of a pound of cotton and a pound +of the finest cotton cloth; between a pound of flax and enough +point lace to weigh a pound; between a few ounces of paint, two or +three yards of canvas and a great picture; between a block of stone +and a statue! Labor is the principal factor in price; when the +price falls wages must go down. + +I do not claim that protection is for the benefit of any particular +class, but that it is for the benefit not only of that particular +class, but of the entire country. In England the common laborer +expects to spend his old age in some workhouse. He is cheered +through all his days of toil, through all his years of weariness, +by the prospect of dying a respectable pauper. The women work as +hard as the men. They toil in the iron mills. They make nails, +they dig coal, they toil in the fields. + +In Europe they carry the hod, they work like beasts and with beasts, +until they lose almost the semblance of human beings--until they +look inferior to the animals they drive. On the labor of these +deformed mothers, of these bent and wrinkled girls, of little boys +with the faces of old age, the heartless nobility live in splendor +and extravagant idleness. I am not now speaking of the French +people, as France is the most prosperous country in Europe. + +Let us protect our mothers, our wives and our children from the +deformity of toil, from the depths of poverty. + +_Question_. Is not the ballot an assurance to the laboring man +that he can get fair treatment from his employer? + +_Answer_. The laboring man in this country has the political power, +provided he has the intelligence to know it and the intelligence +to use it. In so far as laws can assist labor, the workingman has +it in his power to pass such laws; but in most foreign lands the +laboring man has really no voice. It is enough for him to work +and wait and suffer and emigrate. He can take refuge in the grave +or go to America. + +In the old country, where people have been taught that all blessing +come from the king, it is very natural for the poor to believe the +other side of that proposition--that is to say, all evils come from +the king, from the government. They are rocked in the cradle of +this falsehood. So when they come to this country, if they are +unfortunate, it is natural for them to blame the Government. + +The discussion of these questions, however, has already done great +good. The workingman is becoming more and more intelligent. He +is getting a better idea every day of the functions and powers and +limitations of government, and if the problem is ever worked out-- +and by "problem" I mean the just and due relations that should +exist between labor and capital--it will be worked out here in +America. + +_Question_. What assurance has the American laborer that he will +not be ultimately swamped by foreign immigration? + +_Answer_. Most of the immigrants that come to American come because +they want a home. Nearly every one of them is what you may call +"land hungry." In his country, to own a piece of land was to be +respectable, almost a nobleman. The owner of a little land was +regarded as the founder of a family--what you might call a "village +dynasty." When they leave their native shores for America, their +dream is to become a land owner--to have fields, to own trees, and +to listen to the music of their own brooks. + +The moment they arrive the mass of them seek the West, where land +can be obtained. The great Northwest now is being filled with +Scandinavian farmers, with persons from every part of Germany--in +fact from all foreign countries--and every year they are adding +millions of acres to the plowed fields of the Republic. This land +hunger, this desire to own a home, to have a field, to have flocks +and herds, to sit under your own vine and fig tree, will prevent +foreign immigration from interfering to any hurtful degree with +the skilled workmen of America. These land owners, these farmers, +become consumers of manufactured articles. They keep the wheels +and spindles turning and the fires in the forges burning. + +_Question_. What do you think of Cleveland's message? + +_Answer_. Only the other day I read a speech made by the Hon. +William D. Kelley, of Pennsylvania, upon this subject, in which he +says in answer to what he calls "the puerile absurdity of President +Cleveland's assumption" that the duty is always added to the cost, +not only of imported commodities, but to the price of like commodities +produced in this country, "that the duties imposed by our Government +on sugar reduced to _ad valorem_ were never so high as now, and +the price of sugar was never in this country so low as it is now." +He also showed that this tax on sugar has made it possible for us +to produce sugar from other plants and he gives the facts in relation +to corn sugar. + +We are now using annually nineteen million bushels of corn for the +purpose of making glucose or corn sugar. He shows that in this +industry alone there has been a capital invested of eleven million +dollars; that seven hundred and thirty-two thousand acres of land +are required to furnish the supply, and that this one industry now +gives employment to about twenty-two thousand farmers, about five +thousand laborers in factories, and that the annual value of this +product of corn sugar is over seventeen million dollars. + +He also shows what we may expect from the cultivation of the beet. +I advise every one to read that speech, so that they may have some +idea of the capabilities of this country, of the vast wealth asking +for development, of the countless avenues opened for ingenuity, +energy and intelligence. + +_Question_. Does the protective tariff cheapen the prices of +commodities to the laboring man? + +_Answer_. In this there are involved two questions. If the tariff +is so low that the foreign article is imported, of course this +tariff is added to the cost and must be paid by the consumer; but +if the protective tariff is so high that the importer cannot pay +it, and as a consequence the article is produced in America, then +it depends largely upon competition whether the full amount of the +tariff will be added to the article. As a rule, competition will +settle that question in America, and the article will be sold as +cheaply as the producers can afford. + +For instance: If there is a tariff, we will say of fifty cents on +a pair of shoes, and this tariff is so low that the foreign article +can afford to pay it, then that tariff, of course, must be paid by +the consumer. But suppose the tariff was five dollars on a pair +of shoes--that is to say, absolutely prohibitory--does any man in +his senses say that five dollars would be added to each pair of +American shoes? Of course, the statement is the answer. + +I think it is the duty of the laboring man in this country, first, +thoroughly to post himself upon these great questions, to endeavor +to understand his own interest as well as the interest of his +country, and if he does, I believe he will arrive at the conclusion +that it is far better to have the country filled with manufacturers +than to be employed simply in the raising of raw material. I think +he will come to the conclusion that we had better have skilled +labor here, and that it is better to pay for it than not to have +it. I think he will find that it is better for America to be +substantially independent of the rest of the world. I think he +will conclude that nothing is more desirable than the development +of American brain, and that nothing better can be raised than great +and splendid men and women. I think he will conclude that the +cloud coming from the factories, from the great stacks and chimneys, +is the cloud on which will be seen, and always seen, the bow of +American promise. + +_Question_. What have you to say about tariff reform? + +_Answer_. I have this to say: That the tariff is for the most +part the result of compromises--that is, one State wishing to have +something protected agrees to protect something else in some other +State, so that, as a matter of fact, many things are protected that +need no protection, and many things are unprotected that ought to +be cared for by the Government. + +I am in favor of a sensible reform of the tariff--that is to say, +I do not wish to put it in the power of the few to practice extortion +upon the many. Congress should always be wide awake, and whenever +there is any abuse it should be corrected. At the same time, next +to having the tariff just--next in importance is to have it stable. +It does us great injury to have every dollar invested in manufactures +frightened every time Congress meets. Capital should feel secure. +Insecurity calls for a higher interest, wants to make up for the +additional risk, whereas, when a dollar feels absolutely certain +that it is well invested, that it is not to be disturbed, it is +satisfied with a very low rate of interest. + +The present agitation--the message of President Cleveland upon +these questions--will cost the country many hundred millions of +dollars. + +_Question_. I see that some one has been charging that Judge +Gresham is an Infidel? + +_Answer_. I have known Judge Gresham for many years, and of course +have heard him talk upon many subjects, but I do not remember ever +discussing with him a religious topic. I only know that he believes +in allowing every man to express his opinions, and that he does +not hate a man because he differs with him. I believe that he +believes in intellectual hospitality, and that he would give all +churches equal rights, and would treat them all with the utmost +fairness. I regard him as a fair-minded, intelligent and honest +man, and that is enough for me. I am satisfied with the way he +acts, and care nothing about his particular creed. I like a manly +man, whether he agrees with me or not. I believe that President +Garfield was a minister of the Church of the Disciples--that made +no difference to me. Mr. Blaine is a member of some church in +Augusta--I care nothing for that. Whether Judge Gresham belongs +to any church, I do not know. I never asked him, but I know he +does not agree with me by a large majority. + +In this country, where a divorce has been granted between church +and state, the religious opinions of candidates should be let alone. +To make the inquiry is a piece of impertinence--a piece of impudence. +I have voted for men of all persuasions and expect to keep right +on, and if they are not civilized enough to give me the liberty +they ask for themselves, why I shall simply set them an example of +decency. + +_Question_. What do you think of the political outlook? + +_Answer_. The people of this country have a great deal of +intelligence. Tariff and free trade and protection and home +manufactures and American industries--all these things will be +discussed in every schoolhouse of the country, and in thousands +and thousands of political meetings, and when next November comes +you will see the Democratic party overthrown and swept out of power +by a cyclone. All other questions will be lost sight of. Even +the Prohibitionists would rather drink beer in a prosperous country +than burst with cold water and hard times. + +The preservation of what we have will be the great question. This +is the richest country and the most prosperous country, and I +believe that the people have sense enough to continue the policy +that has given them those results. I never want to see the +civilization of the Old World, or rather the barbarism of the Old +World, gain a footing on this continent. I am an American. I +believe in American ideas--that is to say, in equal rights, and in +the education and civilization of all the people. + +--_New York Press_, June 3, 1888. + + +CLEVELAND AND THURMAN. + +_Question_. What do you think of the Democratic nominations? + +_Answer_. In the first place, I hope that this campaign is to be +fought on the issues involved, and not on the private characters +of the candidates. All that they have done as politicians--all +measures that they have favored or opposed--these are the proper +subjects of criticism; in all other respects I think it better to +let the candidates alone. I care but little about the private +character of Mr. Cleveland or of Mr. Thurman. The real question +is, what do they stand for? What policy do they advocate? What +are the reasons for and against the adoption of the policy they +propose? + +I do not regard Cleveland as personally popular. He has done +nothing, so far as I know, calculated to endear him to the popular +heart. He certainly is not a man of enthusiasm. He has said +nothing of a striking or forcible character. His messages are +exceedingly commonplace. He is not a man of education, of wide +reading, of refined tastes, or of general cultivation. He has some +firmness and a good deal of obstinacy, and he was exceedingly +fortunate in his marriage. + +Four years ago he was distinctly opposed to a second term. He was +then satisfied that no man should be elected President more than +once. He was then fearful that a President might use his office, +his appointing power, to further his own ends instead of for the +good of the people. He started, undoubtedly, with that idea in +his mind. He was going to carry out the civil service doctrine to +the utmost. But when he had been President a few months he was +exceedingly unpopular with his party. The Democrats who elected +him had been out of office for twenty-five years. During all those +years they had watched the Republicans sitting at the national +banquet. Their appetites had grown keener and keener, and they +expected when the 4th of March, 1885, came that the Republicans +would be sent from the table and that they would be allowed to tuck +the napkins under their chins. The moment Cleveland got at the +head of the table he told his hungry followers that there was +nothing for them, and he allowed the Republicans to go on as usual. + +In a little while he began to hope for a second term, and gradually +the civil service notion faded from his mind. He stuck to it long +enough to get the principal mugwump papers committed to him and to +his policy; long enough to draw their fire and to put them in a +place where they could not honorably retreat without making themselves +liable to the charge of having fought only for the loaves and +fishes. As a matter of fact, no men were hungrier for office than +the gentlemen who had done so much for civil service reform. They +were so earnest in the advocacy of that principle that they insisted +that only their followers should have place; but the real rank and +file, the men who had been Democrats through all the disastrous +years, and who had prayed and fasted, became utterly disgusted with +Mr. Cleveland's administration and they were not slow to express +their feelings. Mr. Cleveland saw that he was in danger of being +left with no supporters, except a few who thought themselves too +respectable really to join the Democratic party. So for the last +two years, and especially the last year, he turned his attention +to pacifying the real Democrats. He is not the choice of the +Democratic party. Although unanimously nominated, I doubt if he +was the unanimous choice of a single delegate. + +Another very great mistake, I think, has been made by Mr. Cleveland. +He seems to have taken the greatest delight in vetoing pension +bills, and they seem to be about the only bills he has examined, +and he has examined them as a lawyer would examine the declaration, +brief or plea of his opponent. He has sought for technicalities, +to the end that he might veto these bills. By this course he has +lost the soldier vote, and there is no way by which he can regain +it. Upon this point I regard the President as exceedingly weak. +He has shown about the same feeling toward the soldier now that he +did during the war. He was not with them then either in mind or +body. He is not with them now. His sympathies are on the other +side. He has taken occasion to show his contempt for the Democratic +party again and again. This certainly will not add to his strength. +He has treated the old leaders with great arrogance. He has cared +nothing for their advice, for their opinions, or for their feelings. + +The principal vestige of monarchy or despotism in our Constitution +is the veto power, and this has been more liberally used by Mr. +Cleveland than by any other President. This shows the nature of +the man and how narrow he is, and through what a small intellectual +aperture he views the world. Nothing is farther from true democracy +than this perpetual application of the veto power. As a matter of +fact, it should be abolished, and the utmost that a President should +be allowed to do, would be to return a bill with his objections, +and the bill should then become a law upon being passed by both +houses by a simple majority. This would give the Executive the +opportunity of calling attention to the supposed defects, and +getting the judgment of Congress a second time. + +I am perfectly satisfied that Mr. Cleveland is not popular with +his party. The noise and confusion of the convention, the cheers +and cries, were all produced and manufactured for effect and for +the purpose of starting the campaign. + +Now, as to Senator Thurman. During the war he occupied substantially +the same position occupied by Mr. Cleveland. He was opposed to +putting down the Rebellion by force, and as I remember it, he rather +justified the people of the South for going with their States. +Ohio was in favor of putting down the Rebellion, yet Mr. Thurman, +by some peculiar logic of his own, while he justified Southern +people for going into rebellion because they followed their States, +justified himself for not following his State. His State was for +the Union. His State was in favor of putting down rebellion. His +State was in favor of destroying slavery. Certainly, if a man is +bound to follow his State, he is equally bound when the State is +right. It is hardly reasonable to say that a man is only bound to +follow his State when his State is wrong; yet this was really the +position of Senator Thurman. + +I saw the other day that some gentlemen in this city had given as +a reason for thinking that Thurman would strengthen the ticket, +that he had always been right on the financial question. Now, as +a matter of fact, he was always wrong. When it was necessary for +the Government to issue greenbacks, he was a hard money man--he +believed in the mint drops--and if that policy had been carried +out, the Rebellion could not have been suppressed. After the +suppression of the Rebellion, and when hundreds and hundreds of +millions of greenbacks were afloat, and the Republican party proposed +to redeem them in gold, and to go back--as it always intended to +do--to hard money--to a gold and silver basis--then Senator Thurman, +holding aloft the red bandanna, repudiated hard money, opposed +resumption, and came out for rag currency as being the best. Let +him change his ideas--put those first that he had last--and you +might say that he was right on the currency question; but when the +country needed the greenback he was opposed to it, and when the +country was able to redeem the greenback, he was opposed to it. + +It gives me pleasure to say that I regard Senator Thurman as a man +of ability, and I have no doubt that he was coaxed into his last +financial position by the Democratic party, by the necessities of +Ohio, and by the force and direction of the political wind. No +matter how much respectability he adds to the ticket, I do not +believe that he will give any great strength. In the first place, +he is an old man. He has substantially finished his career. Young +men cannot attach themselves to him, because he has no future. +His following is not an army of the young and ambitious--it is +rather a funeral procession. Yet, notwithstanding this fact, he +will furnish most of the enthusiasm for this campaign--and that +will be done with his handkerchief. The Democratic banner is +Thurman's red bandanna. I do not believe that it will be possible +for the Democracy to carry Ohio by reason of Thurman's nomination, +and I think the failure to nominate Gray or some good man from that +State, will lose Indiana. So, while I have nothing to say against +Senator Thurman, nothing against his integrity or his ability, +still, under the circumstances, I do not think his nomination a +strong one. + +_Question_. Do you think that the nominations have been well +received throughout the United States? + +_Answer_. Not as well as in England. I see that all the Tory +papers regard the nominations as excellent--especially that of +Cleveland. Every Englishman who wants Ireland turned into a +penitentiary, and every Irishman to be treated as a convict, is +delighted with the action of the St. Louis convention. England +knows what she wants. Her market is growing small. A few years +ago she furnished manufactured articles to a vast portion of the +world. Millions of her customers have become ingenious enough to +manufacture many things that they need, so the next thing England +did was to sell them the machinery. Now they are beginning to make +their own machinery. Consequently, English trade is falling off. +She must have new customers. Nothing would so gratify her as to +have sixty millions of Americans buy her wares. If she could see +our factories still and dead; if she could put out the fires of +our furnaces and forges; there would come to her the greatest +prosperity she has ever known. She would fatten on our misfortunes +--grow rich and powerful and arrogant upon our poverty. We would +become her servants. We would raise the raw material with ignorant +labor and allow her children to reap all the profit of its manufacture, +and in the meantime to become intelligent and cultured while we +grew poor and ignorant. + +The greatest blow that can be inflicted upon England is to keep +her manufactured articles out of the United States. Sixty millions +of Americans buy and use more than five hundred millions of Asiatics +--buy and use more than all of China, all of India and all of +Africa. One civilized man has a thousand times the wants of a +savage or of a semi-barbarian. Most of the customers of England +want a few yards of calico, some cheap jewelry, a little powder, +a few knives and a few gallons of orthodox rum. + +To-day the United States is the greatest market in the world. The +commerce between the States is almost inconceivable in its immensity. +In order that you may have some idea of the commerce of this country, +it is only necessary to remember one fact. We have railroads enough +engaged in this commerce to make six lines around the globe. The +addition of a million Americans to our population gives us a better +market than a monopoly of ten millions of Asiatics. England, with +her workhouses, with her labor that barely exists, wishes this +market, and wishes to destroy the manufactures of America, and she +expects Irish-Americans to assist her in this patriotic business. + +Now, as to the enthusiasm in this country. I fail to see it. The +nominations have fallen flat. It has been known for a long time +that Cleveland was to be nominated. That has all been discounted, +and the nomination of Judge Thurman has been received in a quite +matter-of-fact way. It may be that his enthusiasm was somewhat +dampened by what might be called the appearance above the horizon +of the morning star of this campaign--Oregon. What a star to rise +over the work of the St. Louis convention! What a prophecy for +Democrats to commence business with! Oregon, with the free trade +issue, seven thousand to eight thousand Republican majority--the +largest ever given by that State--Oregon speaks for the Pacific +Coast. + +_Question_. What do you think of the Democratic platform? + +_Answer_. Mr. Watterson was kind enough to say that before they +took the roof off of the house they were going to give the occupants +a chance to get out. By the "house" I suppose he means the great +workshop of America. By the "roof" he means protection; and by +the "occupants" the mechanics. He is not going to turn them out +at once, or take the roof off in an instant, but this is to be done +gradually. + +In other words, they will remove it shingle by shingle or tile by +tile, until it becomes so leaky or so unsafe that the occupants-- +that is to say, the mechanics, will leave the building. + +The first thing in the platform is a reaffirmation of the platform +of 1884, and an unqualified endorsement of President Cleveland's +message on the tariff. And if President Cleveland's message has +any meaning whatever, it means free trade--not instantly, it may +be--but that is the object and the end to be attained. All his +reasoning, if reasoning it can be called, is in favor of absolute +free trade. The issue is fairly made--shall American labor be +protected, or must the American laborer take his chances with the +labor market of the world? Must he stand upon an exact par with +the laborers of Belgium and England and Germany, not only, but with +the slaves and serfs of other countries? Must he be reduced to +the diet of the old country? Is he to have meat on holidays and +a reasonably good dinner on Christmas, and live the rest of the +year on crusts, crumbs, scraps, skimmed milk, potatoes, turnips, +and a few greens that he can steal from the corners of fences? Is +he to rely for meat, on poaching, and then is he to be transported +to some far colony for the crime of catching a rabbit? Are our +workingmen to wear wooden shoes? + +Now, understand me, I do not believe that the Democrats think that +free trade would result in disaster. Their minds are so constituted +that they really believe that free trade would be a great blessing. +I am not calling in question their honesty. I am simply disputing +the correctness of their theory. It makes no difference, as a +matter of fact, whether they are honest or dishonest. Free trade +established by honest people would be just as injurious as if +established by dishonest people. So there is no necessity of +raising the question of intention. Consequently, I admit that they +are doing the best they know now. This is not admitting much, but +it is something, as it tends to take from the discussion all ill +feeling. + +We all know that the tariff protects special interests in particular +States. Louisiana is not for free trade. It may be for free trade +in everything except sugar. It is willing that the rest of the +country should pay an additional cent or two a pound on sugar for +its benefit, and while receiving the benefit it does not wish to +bear its part of the burden. If the other States protect the sugar +interests in Louisiana, certainly that State ought to be willing +to protect the wool interest in Ohio, the lead and hemp interest +in Missouri, the lead and wool interest in Colorado, the lumber +interest in Minnesota, the salt and lumber interest in Michigan, +the iron interest in Pennsylvania, and so I might go on with a list +of the States--because each one has something that it wishes to +have protected. + +It sounds a little strange to hear a Democratic convention cry out +that the party "is in favor of the maintenance of an indissoluble +union of free and indestructible States." Only a little while ago +the Democratic party regarded it as the height of tyranny to coerce +a free State. Can it be said that a State is "free" that is +absolutely governed by the Nation? Is a State free that can make +no treaty with any other State or country--that is not permitted +to coin money or to declare war? Why should such a State be called +free? The truth is that the States are not free in that sense. +The Republican party believes that this is a Nation and that the +national power is the highest, and that every citizen owes the +highest allegiance to the General Government and not to his State. +In other words, we are not Virginians or Mississippians or Delawareans +--we are Americans. The great Republic is a free Nation, and the +States are but parts of that Nation. The doctrine of State +Sovereignty was born of the institution of slavery. In the history +of our country, whenever anything wrong was to be done, this doctrine +of State Sovereignty was appealed to. It protected the slave-trade +until the year 1808. It passed the Fugitive Slave Law. It made +every citizen in the North a catcher of his fellow-man--made it +the duty of free people to enslave others. This doctrine of State +Rights was appealed to for the purpose of polluting the Territories +with the institution of slavery. To deprive a man of his liberty, +to put him back into slavery, State lines were instantly obliterated; +but whenever the Government wanted to protect one of its citizens +from outrage, then the State lines became impassable barriers, and +the sword of justice fell in twain across the line of a State. + +People forget that the National Government is the creature of the +people. The real sovereign is the people themselves. Presidents +and congressmen and judges are the creatures of the people. If we +had a governing class--if men were presidents or senators by virtue +of birth--then we might talk about the danger of centralization; +but if the people are sufficiently intelligent to govern themselves, +they will never create a government for the destruction of their +liberties, and they are just as able to protect their rights in +the General Government as they are in the States. If you say that +the sovereignty of the State protects labor, you might as well say +that the sovereignty of the county protects labor in the State and +that the sovereignty of the town protects labor in the county. + +Of all subjects in the world the Democratic party should avoid +speaking of "a critical period of our financial affairs, resulting +from over taxation." How did taxation become necessary? Who +created the vast debt that American labor must pay? Who made this +taxation of thousands of millions necessary? Why were the greenbacks +issued? Why were the bonds sold? Who brought about "a critical +period of our financial affairs"? How has the Democratic party +"averted disaster"? How could there be a disaster with a vast +surplus in the treasury? Can you find in the graveyard of nations +this epitaph: "Died of a Surplus"? Has any nation ever been known +to perish because it had too much gold and too much silver, and +because its credit was better than that of any other nation on the +earth? The Democrats seem to think--and it is greatly to their +credit--that they have prevented the destruction of the Government +when the treasury was full--when the vaults were overflowing. What +would they have done had the vaults been empty? Let them wrestle +with the question of poverty; let them then see how the Democratic +party would succeed. When it is necessary to create credit, to +inspire confidence, not only in our own people, but in the nations +of the world--which of the parties is best adapted for the task? +The Democratic party congratulates itself that it has not been +ruined by a Republican surplus! What good boys we are! We have +not been able to throw away our legacy! + +Is it not a little curious that the convention plumed itself on +having paid out more for pensions and bounties to the soldiers and +sailors of the Republic than was ever paid before during an equal +period? It goes wild in its pretended enthusiasm for the President +who has vetoed more pension bills than all the other Presidents put +together. + +The platform informs us that "the Democratic party has adopted and +consistently pursued and affirmed a prudent foreign policy, preserving +peace with all nations." Does it point with pride to the Mexican +fiasco, or does it rely entirely upon the great fishery triumph? +What has the administration done--what has it accomplished in the +field of diplomacy? + +When we come to civil service, about how many Federal officials +were at the St. Louis convention? About how many have taken part +in the recent nominations? In other words, who has been idle? + +We have recently been told that the wages of workingmen are just +as high in the old country as in this, when you take into consideration +the cost of living. We have always been told by all the free trade +papers and orators, that the tariff has no bearing whatever upon +wages, and yet, the Democrats have not succeeded in convincing +themselves. I find in their platform this language: "A fair and +careful revision of our tax laws, with due allowance for the +difference between the wages of American and foreign labor, must +promote and encourage every branch of such industries and enterprises +by giving them the assurance of an extended market and steady and +continuous operations." + +It would seem from this that the Democratic party admits that wages +are higher here than in foreign countries. Certainly they do not +mean to say that they are lower. If they are higher here than in +foreign countries, the question arises, why are they higher? If +you took off the tariff, the presumption is that they would be as +low here as anywhere else, because this very Democratic convention +says: "A fair and careful revision of our tax laws, with due +allowance for the difference between wages." In other words, they +would keep tariff enough on to protect our workingmen from the low +wages of the foreigner--consequently, we have the admission of the +Democratic party that in order to keep wages in this country higher +than they are in Belgium, in Italy, in England and in Germany, we +must protect home labor. Then follows the _non sequitur_, which +is a Democratic earmark. They tell us that by keeping a tariff, +"making due allowance for the difference between wages, all the +industries and enterprises would be encouraged and promoted by +giving them the assurance of an extended market." What does the +word "extended" mean? If it means anything, it means a market in +other countries. In other words, we will put the tariff so low +that the wages of American workingmen will be so low that he can +compete with the laborers of other countries; otherwise his market +could not be "extended." What does this mean? There is evidently +a lack of thought here. The two things cannot be accomplished in +that way. If the tariff raises American wages, the American cannot +compete in foreign markets with the men who work for half the price. +What may be the final result is another question. American industry +properly protected, American genius properly fostered, may invent +ways and means--such wonderful machinery, such quick, inexpensive +processes, that in time American genius may produce at a less rate +than any other country, for the reason that the laborers of other +countries will not be as intelligent, will not be as independent, +will not have the same ambition. + +Fine phrases will not deceive the people of this country. The +American mechanic already has a market of sixty millions of people, +and, as I said before, the best market in the world. This country +is now so rich, so prosperous, that it is the greatest market of +the earth, even for luxuries. It is the best market for pictures, +for works of art. It is the best market for music and song. It +is the best market for dramatic genius, and it is the best market +for skilled labor, the best market for common labor, and in this +country the poor man to-day has the best chance--he can look forward +to becoming the proprietor of a home, of some land, to independence, +to respectability, and to an old age without want and without +disgrace. + +The platform, except upon this question of free trade, means very +little. There are other features in it which I have not at present +time to examine, but shall do so hereafter. I want to take it up +point by point and find really what it means, what its scope is, +and what the intentions were of the gentlemen who made it. + +But it may be proper to say here, that in my judgment it is a very +weak and flimsy document, as Victor Hugo would say, "badly cut and +badly sewed." + +Of course, I know that the country will exist whatever party may +be in power. I know that all our blessings do not come from laws, +or from the carrying into effect of certain policies, and probably +I could pay no greater compliment to any country than to say that +even eight years of Democratic rule cannot materially affect her +destiny. + +--_New York Press_, June 10, 1888. + + +THE REPUBLICAN PLATFORM OF 1888. + +_Question_. What do you think of the signs of the times so far as +the campaign has progressed? + +_Answer_. The party is now going through a period of misrepresentation. +Every absurd meaning that can be given to any combination of words +will be given to every plank of the platform. In the heat of +partisan hatred every plank will look warped and cracked. A great +effort is being made to show that the Republican party is in favor +of intemperance,--that the great object now is to lessen the price +of all intoxicants and increase the cost of all the necessaries of +life. The papers that are for nothing but reform of everything +and everybody except themselves, are doing their utmost to show +that the Republican party is the enemy of honesty and temperance. + +The other day, at a Republican ratification meeting, I stated among +other things, that we could not make great men and great women +simply by keeping them out of temptation--that nobody would think +of tying the hands of a person behind them and then praise him for +not picking pockets; that great people were great enough to withstand +temptation, and in that connection I made this statement: "Temperance +goes hand in hand with liberty"--the idea being that when a chain +is taken from the body an additional obligation is perceived by +the mind. These good papers--the papers that believe in honest +politics--stated that I said: "Temperance goes hand in hand with +liquor." This was not only in the reports of the meeting, but this +passage was made the subject of several editorials. It hardly +seems possible that any person really thought that such a statement +had been expressed. The Republican party does not want free whiskey +--it wants free men; and a great many people in the Republican +party are great enough to know that temperance does go hand in hand +with liberty; they are great enough to know that all legislation +as to what we shall eat, as to what we shall drink, and as to +wherewithal we shall be clothed, partakes of the nature of petty, +irritating and annoying tyranny. They also know that the natural +result is to fill a country with spies, hypocrites and pretenders, +and that when a law is not in accordance with an enlightened public +sentiment, it becomes either a dead letter, or, when a few fanatics +endeavor to enforce it, a demoralizer of courts, of juries and of +people. + +The attack upon the platform by temperance people is doing no harm, +for the reason that long before November comes these people will +see the mistake they have made. It seems somewhat curious that +the Democrats should attack the platform if they really believe +that it means free whiskey. + +The tax was levied during the war. It was a war measure. The +Government was _in extremis_, and for that reason was obliged to +obtain a revenue from every possible article of value. The war is +over; the necessity has disappeared; consequently the Government +should return to the methods of peace. We have too many Government +officials. Let us get rid of collectors and gaugers and inspectors. +Let us do away with all this machinery, and leave the question to +be settled by the State. If the temperance people themselves would +take a second thought, they would see that when the Government +collects eighty or ninety million dollars from a tax on whiskey, +the traffic becomes entrenched, it becomes one of the pillars of +the State, one of the great sources of revenue. Let the States +attend to this question, and it will be a matter far easier to deal +with. + +The Prohibitionists are undoubtedly honest, and their object is to +destroy the traffic, to prevent the manufacture of whiskey. Can +they do this as long as the Government collects ninety million +dollars per annum from that one source? If there is anything +whatever in this argument, is it not that the traffic pays a bribe +of ninety million dollars a year for its life? Will not the farmers +say to the temperance men: "The distilleries pay the taxes, the +distilleries raise the price of corn; is it not better for the +General Government to look to another direction for its revenues +and leave the States to deal as they may see proper with this +question?" + +With me, it makes no difference what is done with the liquor-- +whether it is used in the arts or not--it is a question of policy. +There is no moral principle involved on our side of the question, +to say the least of it. If it is a crime to make and sell intoxicating +liquors, the Government, by licensing persons to make and sell, +becomes a party to the crime. If one man poisons another, no matter +how much the poison costs, the crime is the same; and if the person +from whom the poison was purchased knew how it was to be used, he +is also a murderer. + +There have been many reformers in this world, and they have seemed +to imagine that people will do as they say. They think that you +can use people as you do bricks or stones; that you can lay them +up in walls and they will remain where they are placed; but the +truth is, you cannot do this. The bricks are not satisfied with +each other--they go away in the night--in the morning there is no +wall. Most of these reformers go up what you might call the Mount +Sinai of their own egotism, and there, surrounded by the clouds of +their own ignorance, they meditate upon the follies and the frailties +of their fellow-men and then come down with ten commandments for +their neighbors. + +All this talk about the Republican platform being in favor of +intemperance, so far as the Democratic party is concerned, is pure, +unadulterated hypocrisy--nothing more, nothing less. So far as +the Prohibitionists are concerned, they may be perfectly honest, +but, if they will think a moment, they will see how perfectly +illogical they are. No one can help sympathizing with any effort +honestly made to do away with the evil of intemperance. I know +that many believe that these evils can be done away with by +legislation. While I sympathize with the objects that these people +wish to attain, I do not believe in the means they suggest. As +life becomes valuable, people will become temperate, because they +will take care of themselves. Temperance is born of the countless +influences of civilization. Character cannot be forced upon anybody; +it is a growth, the seeds of which are within. Men cannot be forced +into real temperance any more than they can be frightened into real +morality. You may frighten a man to that degree that he will not +do a certain thing, but you cannot scare him badly enough to prevent +his wanting to do that thing. Reformation begins on the inside, +and the man refrains because he perceives that he ought to refrain, +not because his neighbors say that he ought to refrain. No one +would think of praising convicts in jail for being regular at their +meals, or for not staying out nights; and it seems to me that when +the Prohibitionists--when the people who are really in favor of +temperance--look the ground all over they will see that it is far +better to support the Republican party than to throw their votes +away; and the Republicans will see that it is simply a proposition +to go back to the original methods of collecting revenue for the +Government--that it is simply abandoning the measures made necessary +by war, and that it is giving to the people the largest liberty +consistent with the needs of the Government, and that it is only +leaving these questions where in time of peace they properly belong +--to the States themselves. + +_Question_. Do you think that the Knights of Labor will cut any +material figure in this election? + +_Answer_. The Knights of Labor will probably occupy substantially +the same position as other laborers and other mechanics. If they +clearly see that the policy advocated by the Republican party is +to their interest, that it will give them better wages than the +policy advocated by the Democrats, then they will undoubtedly +support our ticket. There is more or less irritation between +employers and employed. All men engaged in manufacturing and +neither good nor generous. Many of them get work for as little as +possible, and sell its product for all they can get. It is impossible +to adopt a policy that will not by such people be abused. Many of +them would like to see the working man toil for twelve hours or +fourteen or sixteen in each day. Many of them wonder why they need +sleep or food, and are perfectly astonished when they ask for pay. +In some instances, undoubtedly, the working men will vote against +their own interests simply to get even with such employers. + +Some laboring men have been so robbed, so tyrannized over, that +they would be perfectly willing to feel for the pillars and take +a certain delight in a destruction that brought ruin even to +themselves. Such manufacturers, however, I believe to be in a +minority, and the laboring men, under the policy of free trade, +would be far more in their power. When wages fall below a certain +point, then comes degradation, loss of manhood, serfdom and slavery. +If any man has the right to vote for his own interests, certainly +the man who labors is that man, and every working man having in +his will a part of the sovereignty of this nation, having within +him a part of the lawmaking power, should have the intelligence +and courage to vote for his own interests; he should vote for good +wages; he should vote for a policy that would enable him to lay +something by for the winter of his life, that would enable him to +earn enough to educate his children, enough to give him a home and +a fireside. + +He need not do this in anger or for revenge, but because it is +just, because it is right, and because the working people are in +a majority. They ought to control the world, because they have +made the world what it is. They have given everything there is of +value. Labor plows every field, builds every house, fashions +everything of use, and when that labor is guided by intelligence +the world is prosperous. + +He who thinks good thoughts is a laborer--one of the greatest. +The man who invented the reaper will be harvesting the fields for +thousands of years to come. If labor is abused in this country +the laborers have it within their power to defend themselves. + +All my sympathies are with the men who toil. I shed very few tears +over bankers and millionaires and corporations--they can take care +of themselves. My sympathies are with the man who has nothing to +sell but his strength; nothing to sell but his muscle and his +intelligence; who has no capital except that which his mother gave +him--a capital he must sell every day; my sympathies are with him; +and I want him to have a good market; and I want it so that he can +sell the work for more than enough to take care of him to-morrow. + +I believe that no corporation should be allowed to exist except +for the benefit of the whole people. The Government should always +act for the benefit of all, and when the Government gives a part +of its power to an aggregation of individuals, the accomplishment +of some public good should justify the giving of that power; and +whenever a corporation becomes subversive of the very end for which +it was created, the Government should put an end to its life. + +So I believe that after these matters, these issues have been +discussed--when something is understood about the effect of a +tariff, the effect of protection, the laboring people of this +country will be on the side of the Republican party. The Republican +party is always trying to do something--trying to take a step in +advance. Persons who care for nothing except themselves--who wish +to make no effort except for themselves--are its natural enemies. + +_Question_. What do you think of Mr. Mills' Fourth of July speech +on his bill? + +_Answer_. Certain allowances should always be made for the Fourth +of July. What Mr. Mills says with regard to free trade depends, +I imagine, largely on where he happens to be. You remember the +old story about the _Moniteur_. When Napoleon escaped from Elba +that paper said: "The ogre has escaped." And from that moment +the epithets grew a little less objectionable as Napoleon advanced, +and at last the _Moniteur_ cried out: "The Emperor has reached +Paris." I hardly believe that Mr. Mills would call his bill in +Texas a war tariff measure. He might commence in New York with +that description, but as he went South that language, in my judgment, +would change, and when he struck the Brazos I think the bill would +be described as the nearest possible approach to free trade. + +Mr. Mills takes the ground that if raw material comes here free of +duty, then we can manufacture that raw material and compete with +other countries in the markets of the world--that is to say, under +his bill. Now, other countries can certainly get the raw material +as cheaply as we can, especially those countries in which the raw +material is raised; and if wages are less in other countries than +in ours, the raw material being the same, the product must cost +more with us than with them. Consequently we cannot compete with +foreign countries simply by getting the raw material at the same +price; we must be able to manufacture it as cheaply as they, and +we can do that only by cutting down the wages of the American +workingmen. Because, to have raw material at the same price as +other nations, is only a part of the problem. The other part is +how cheaply can we manufacture it? And that depends upon wages. +If wages are twenty-five cents a day, then we can compete with +those nations where wages are twenty-five cents a day; but if our +wages are five or six times as high, then the twenty-five cent +labor will supply the market. There is no possible way of putting +ourselves on an equality with other countries in the markets of +the world, except by putting American labor on an equality with +the other labor of the world. Consequently, we cannot obtain a +foreign market without lessening our wages. No proposition can be +plainer than this. + +It cannot be said too often that the real prosperity of a country +depends upon the well-being of those who labor. That country is +not prosperous where a few are wealthy and have all the luxuries +that the imagination can suggest, and where the millions are in +want, clothed in rags, and housed in tenements not fit for wild +beasts. The value of our property depends on the civilization of +our people. If the people are happy and contented, if the workingman +receives good wages, then our houses and our farms are valuable. +If the people are discontented, if the workingmen are in want, then +our property depreciates from day to day, and national bankruptcy +will only be a question of time. + +If Mr. Mills has given a true statement with regard to the measure +proposed by him, what relation does that measure bear to the +President's message? What has it to do with the Democratic platform? +If Mr. Mills has made no mistake, the President wrote a message +substantially in favor of free trade. The Democratic party ratified +and indorsed that message, and at the same time ratified and indorsed +the Mills bill. Now, the message was for free trade, and the Mills +bill, according to Mr. Mills, is for the purpose of sustaining the +war tariff. They have either got the wrong child or the wrong +parents. + +_Question_. I see that some people are objecting to your taking +any part in politics, on account of your religious opinion? + +_Answer_. The Democratic party has always been pious. If it is +noted for anything it is for its extreme devotion. You have no +idea how many Democrats wear out the toes of their shoes praying. +I suppose that in this country there ought to be an absolute divorce +between church and state and without any alimony being allowed to +the church; and I have always supposed that the Republican party +was perfectly willing that anybody should vote its ticket who +believed in its principles. The party was not established, as I +understand it, in the interest of any particular denomination; it +was established to promote and preserve the freedom of the American +citizen everywhere. Its first object was to prevent the spread of +human slavery; its second object was to put down the Rebellion and +preserve the Union; its third object was the utter destruction of +human slavery everywhere, and its fourth object is to preserve not +only the fruit of all that it has won, but to protect American +industry to the end that the Republic may not only be free, but +prosperous and happy. In this great work all are invited to join, +no matter whether Catholics or Presbyterians or Methodists or +Infidels--believers or unbelievers. The object is to have a majority +of the people of the United States in favor of human liberty, in +favor of justice and in favor of an intelligent American policy. + +I am not what is called strictly orthodox, and yet I am liberal +enough to vote for a Presbyterian, and if a Presbyterian is not +liberal enough to stand by a Republican, no matter what his religious +opinions may be, then the Presbyterian is not as liberal as the +Republican party, and he is not as liberal as an unbeliever; in +other words, he is not a manly man. + +I object to no man who is running for office on the ticket of my +party on account of his religious convictions. I care nothing +about the church of which he is a member. That is his business. +That is an individual matter--something with which the State has +no right to interfere--something with which no party can rightfully +have anything to do. These great questions are left open to +discussion. Every church must take its chance in the open field +of debate. No belief has the right to draw the sword--no dogma +the right to resort to force. The moment a church asks for the +help of the State, it confesses its weakness, it confesses its +inability to answer the arguments against it. + +I believe in the absolute equality before the law, of all religions +and all metaphysical theories; and I would no more control those +things by law than I would endeavor to control the arts and the +sciences by legislation. Man admires the beautiful, and what is +beautiful to one may not be to another, and this inequality or this +difference cannot be regulated by law. + +The same is true of what is called religious belief. I am willing +to give all others every right that I claim for myself, and if they +are not willing to give me the rights they claim for themselves, +they are not civilized. + +No man acknowledges the truth of my opinions because he votes the +same ticket that I do, and I certainly do not acknowledge the +correctness of the opinions of others because I vote the Republican +ticket. We are Republicans together. Upon certain political +questions we agree, upon other questions we disagree--and that is +all. Only religious people, who have made up their minds to vote +the Democratic ticket, will raise an objection of this kind, and +they will raise the objection simply as a pretence, simply for the +purpose of muddying the water while they escape. + +Of course there may be some exceptions. There are a great many +insane people out of asylums. If the Republican party does not +stand for absolute intellectual liberty, it had better disband. +And why should we take so much pains to free the body, and then +enslave the mind? I believe in giving liberty to both. Give every +man the right to labor, and give him the right to reap the harvest +of his toil. Give every man the right to think, and to reap the +harvest of his brain--that is to say, give him the right to express +his thoughts. + +--_New York Press_, July 8, 1888. + + +JAMES G. BLAINE AND POLITICS. + +_Question_. I see that there has lately been published a long +account of the relations between Mr. Blaine and yourself, and the +reason given for your failure to support him for the nomination in +1884 and 1888? + +_Answer_. Every little while some donkey writes a long article +pretending to tell all that happened between Mr. Blaine and myself. +I have never seen any article on the subject that contained any +truth. They are always the invention of the writer or of somebody +who told him. The last account is more than usually idiotic. An +unpleasant word has never passed between Mr. Blaine and myself. +We have never had any falling out. I never asked Mr. Blaine's +influence for myself. I never asked President Hayes or Garfield +or Arthur for any position whatever, and I have never asked Mr. +Cleveland for any appointment under the civil service. + +With regard to the German Mission, about which so much has been +said, all that I ever did in regard to that was to call on Secretary +Evarts and inform him that there was no place in the gift of the +administration that I would accept. I could not afford to throw +away a good many thousand dollars a year for the sake of an office. +So I say again that I never asked, or dreamed of asking, any such +favor of Mr. Blaine. The favors have been exactly the other way-- +from me, and not from him. So there is not the slightest truth in +the charge that there was some difference between our families. + +I have great respect for Mrs. Blaine, have always considered her +an extremely good and sensible woman; our relations have been of +the friendliest character, and such relations have always existed +between all the members of both families, so far as I know. Nothing +could be more absurd that the charge that there was some feeling +growing out of our social relations. We do not depend upon others +to help us socially; we need no help, and if we did we would not +accept it. The whole story about there having been any lack of +politeness or kindness is without the slightest foundation. + +In 1884 I did not think that Mr. Blaine could be elected. I thought +the same at the Chicago convention this year. I know that he has +a great number of ardent admirers and of exceedingly self-denying +and unselfish friends. I believe that he has more friends than +any other man in the Republican party; but he also has very bitter +enemies--enemies with influence. Taking this into consideration, +and believing that the success of the party was more important than +the success of any individual, I was in favor of nominating some +man who would poll the entire Republican vote. This feeling did +not grow out of any hostility to any man, but simply out of a desire +for Republican success. In other words, I endeavored to take an +unprejudiced view of the situation. Under no circumstances would +I underrate the ability and influence of Mr. Blaine, nor would I +endeavor to deprecate the services he has rendered to the Republican +party and to the country. But by this time it ought to be understood +that I belong to no man, that I am the proprietor of myself. + +There are two kinds of people that I have no use for--leaders and +followers. The leader should be principle; the leader should be +a great object to be accomplished. The follower should be the man +dedicated to the accomplishment of a noble end. He who simply +follows persons gains no honor and is incapable of giving honor +even to the one he follows. There are certain things to be +accomplished and these things are the leaders. We want in this +country an American system; we wish to carry into operation, into +practical effect, ideas, policies, theories in harmony with our +surroundings. + +This is a great country filled with intelligent, industrious, +restless, ambitious people. Millions came here because they were +dissatisfied with the laws, the institutions, the tyrannies, the +absurdities, the poverty, the wretchedness and the infamous spirit +of caste found in the Old World. Millions of these people are +thinking for themselves, and only the people who can teach, who +can give new facts, who can illuminate, should be regarded as +political benefactors. This country is, in my judgment, in all +that constitutes true greatness, the nearest civilized of any +country. Only yesterday the German Empire robbed a woman of her +child; this was done as a political necessity. Nothing is taken +into consideration except some move on the political chess-board. +The feelings of a mother are utterly disregarded; they are left +out of the question; they are not even passed upon. They are +naturally ignored, because in these governments only the unnatural +is natural. + +In our political life we have substantially outgrown the duel. +There are some small, insignificant people who still think it +important to defend a worthless reputation on the field of "honor," +but for respectable members of the Senate, of the House, of the +Cabinet, to settle a political argument with pistols would render +them utterly contemptible in this country; that is to say, the +opinion that governs, that dominates in this country, holds the +duel in abhorrence and in contempt. What could be more idiotic, +absurd, childish, than the duel between Boulanger and Floquet? +What was settled? It needed no duel to convince the world that +Floquet is a man of courage. The same may be said of Boulanger. +He has faced death upon many fields. Why, then, resort to the +duel? If Boulanger's wound proves fatal, that certainly does not +tend to prove that Floquet told the truth, and if Boulanger recovers, +it does not tend to prove that he did not tell the truth. + +Nothing is settled. Two men controlled by vanity, that individual +vanity born of national vanity, try to kill each other; the public +ready to reward the victor; the cause of the quarrel utterly ignored; +the hands of the public ready to applaud the successful swordsman +--and yet France is called a civilized nation. No matter how +serious the political situation may be, no matter if everything +depends upon one man, that man is at the mercy of anyone in opposition +who may see fit to challenge him. The greatest general at the head +of their armies may be forced to fight a duel with a nobody. Such +ideas, such a system, keeps a nation in peril and makes every cause, +to a greater or less extent, depend upon the sword or the bullet +of a criminal. + +--_The Press_, New York, July 16, 1888. + + +THE MILLS BILL. + +_Question_. What, in your opinion, is the significance of the vote +on the Mills Bill recently passed in the House? In this I find +there were one hundred and sixty-two for it, and one hundred and +forty-nine against it; of these, two Republicans voted for, and +five Democrats against. + +_Answer_. In the first place, I think it somewhat doubtful whether +the bill could have been passed if Mr. Randall had been well. His +sickness had much to do with this vote. Had he been present to +have taken care of his side, to have kept his forces in hand, he, +in my judgment, taking into consideration his wonderful knowledge +of parliamentary tactics, would have defeated this bill. + +It is somewhat hard to get the average Democrat, in the absence of +his leader, to throw away the prospect of patronage. Most members +of Congress have to pay tolerably strict attention to their political +fences. The President, although clinging with great tenacity to +the phrase "civil service," has in all probability pulled every +string he could reach for the purpose of compelling the Democratic +members not only to stand in line, but to answer promptly to their +names. Every Democrat who has shown independence has been stepped +on just to the extent he could be reached; but many members, had +the leader been on the floor--and a leader like Randall--would have +followed him. + +There are very few congressional districts in the United States not +intensely Democratic where the people want nothing protected. +There are a few districts where nothing grows except ancient +politics, where they cultivate only the memory of what never ought +to have been, where the subject of protection has not yet reached. + +The impudence requisite to pass the Mills Bill is something +phenomenal. Think of the Representatives from Louisiana saying to +the ranchmen of the West and to the farmers of Ohio that wool must +be on the free list, but that for the sake of preserving the sugar +interest of Louisiana and a little portion of Texas, all the rest +of the United States must pay tribute. + +Everybody admits that Louisiana is not very well adapted by nature +for raising sugar, for the reason that the cane has to be planted +every year, and every third year the frost puts in an appearance +just a little before the sugar. Now, while I think personally that +the tariff on sugar has stimulated the inventive genius of the +country to find other ways of producing that which is universally +needed; and while I believe that it will not be long until we shall +produce every pound of sugar that we consume, and produce it cheaper +than we buy it now, I am satisfied that in time and at no distant +day sugar will be made in this country extremely cheap, not only +from beets, but from sorghum and corn, and it may be from other +products. At the same time this is no excuse for Louisiana, neither +is it any excuse for South Carolina asking for a tariff on rice, +and at the same time wishing to leave some other industry in the +United States, in which many more millions have been invested, +absolutely without protection. + +Understand, I am not opposed to a reasonable tariff on rice, provided +it is shown that we can raise rice in this country cheaply and at +a profit to such an extent as finally to become substantially +independent of the rest of the world. What I object to is the +impudence of the gentleman who is raising the rice objecting to +the protection of some other industry of far greater importance +than his. + +After all, the whole thing must be a compromise. We must act +together for the common good. If we wish to make something at the +expense of another State we must allow that State to make something +at our expense, or at least we must be able to show that while it +is for our benefit it is also for the benefit of the country at +large. Everybody is entitled to have his own way up to the point +that his way interferes with somebody else. States are like +individuals--their rights are relative--they are subordinated to +the good of the whole country. + +For many years it has been the American policy to do all that +reasonably could be done to foster American industry, to give scope +to American ingenuity and a field for American enterprise--in other +words, a future for the United States. + +The Southern States were always in favor of something like free +trade. They wanted to raise cotton for Great Britain--raw material +for other countries. At that time their labor was slave labor, +and they could not hope ever to have skilled labor, because skilled +labor cannot be enslaved. The Southern people knew at that time +that if a man was taught enough of mathematics to understand +machinery, to run locomotives, to weave cloth; it he was taught +enough of chemistry even to color calico, it would be impossible +to keep him a slave. Education always was and always will be an +abolitionist. The South advocated a system of harmony with slavery, +in harmony with ignorance--that is to say, a system of free trade, +under which it might raise its raw material. It could not hope to +manufacture, because by making its labor intelligent enough to +manufacture it would lose it. + +In the North, men are working for themselves, and as I have often +said, they were getting their hands and heads in partnership. +Every little stream that went singing to the sea was made to turn +a thousand wheels; the water became a spinner and a weaver; the +water became a blacksmith and ran a trip hammer; the water was +doing the work of millions of men. In other words, the free people +of the North were doing what free people have always done, going +into partnership with the forces of nature. Free people want good +tools, shapely, well made--tools with which the most work can be +done with the least strain. + +Suppose the South had been in favor of protection; suppose that +all over the Southern country there had been workshops, factories, +machines of every kind; suppose that her people had been as ingenious +as the people of the North; suppose that her hands had been as deft +as those that had been accustomed to skilled labor; then one of +two things would have happened; either the South would have been +too intelligent to withdraw from the Union, or, having withdrawn, +it would have had the power to maintain its position. My opinion +is that is would have been too intelligent to withdraw. + +When the South seceded it had no factories. The people of the +South had ability, but it was not trained in the direction then +necessary. They could not arm and equip their men; they could not +make their clothes; they could not provide them with guns, with +cannon, with ammunition, and with the countless implements of +destruction. They had not the ingenuity; they had not the means; +they could not make cars to carry their troops, or locomotives to +draw them; they had not in their armies the men to build bridges +or to supply the needed transportation. They had nothing but cotton +--that is to say, raw material. So that you might say that the +Rebellion has settled the question as to whether a country is better +off and more prosperous, and more powerful, and more ready for war, +that is filled with industries, or one that depends simply upon +the production of raw material. + +There is another thing in this connection that should never be +forgotten--at least, not until after the election in November, and +then if forgotten, should be remembered at every subsequent election +--and that is, that the Southern Confederacy had in its Constitution +the doctrine of free trade. Among other things it was fighting +for free trade. As a matter of fact, John C. Calhoun was fighting +for free trade; the nullification business was in the interest of +free trade. + +The Southern people are endeavoring simply to accomplish, with the +aid of New York, what they failed to accomplish on the field. The +South is as "solid" to-day as in 1863. It is now for free trade, +and it purposes to carry the day by the aid of one or two Northern +States. History is repeating itself. It was the same for many +years, up to the election of Abraham Lincoln. + +Understand me, I do not blame the South for acting in accordance +with its convictions, but the North ought not to be misled. The +North ought to understand what the issue is. The South has a +different idea of government--it is afraid of what it calls +"centralization"--it is extremely sensitive about what are called +"State Rights" or the sovereignty of the State. But the North +believes in a Union that is united. The North does not expect to +have any interest antagonistic to the Union. The North has no +mental reservation. The North believes in the Government and in +the Federal system, and the North believes that when a State is +admitted into the Union it becomes a part--an integral part--of +the Nation; that there was a welding, that the State, so far as +sovereignty is concerned, is lost in the Union, and that the people +of that State become citizens of the whole country. + +_Question_. I see that by the vote two of the five Democrats who +voted for protection, and one of the two Republicans who voted for +free trade, were New Yorkers. What do you think is the significance +of this fact in relation to the question as to whether New York +will join the South in the opposition to the industries of the +country? + +_Answer_. In the city of New York there are a vast number of men +--importers, dealers in foreign articles, representatives of foreign +houses, of foreign interests, of foreign ideas. Of course most of +these people are in favor of free trade. They regard New York as +a good market; beyond that they have not the slightest interest in +the United States. They are in favor of anything that will give +them a large profit, or that will allow them to do the same business +with less capital, or that will do them any good without the +slightest regard as to what the effect may be on this country as +a nation. They come from all countries, and they expect to remain +here until their fortunes are made or lost and all their ideas are +moulded by their own interests. Then, there are a great many +natives who are merchants in New York and who deal in foreign goods, +and they probably think--some of them--that it would be to their +interest to have free trade, and they will probably vote according +to the ledger. With them it is a question of bookkeeping. Their +greed is too great to appreciate the fact that to impoverish +customers destroys trade. + +At the same time, New York, being one of the greatest manufacturing +States of the world, will be for protection, and the Democrats of +New York who voted for protection did so, not only because the +believed in it themselves, but because their constituents believe +in it, and the Republicans who voted the other way must have +represented some district where the foreign influence controls. + +The people of this State will protect their own industries. + +_Question_. What will be the fate of the Mills Bill in the Senate? + +_Answer_. I think that unless the Senate has a bill prepared +embodying Republican ideals, a committee should be appointed, not +simply to examine the Mills Bill, but to get the opinions and the +ideas of the most intelligent manufacturers and mechanics in this +country. Let the questions be thoroughly discussed, and let the +information thus obtained be given to the people; let it be published +from day to day; let the laboring man have his say, let the +manufacturer give his opinion; let the representatives of the +principal industries be heard, so that we may vote intelligently, +so that the people may know what they are doing. + +A great many industries have been attacked. Let them defend +themselves. Public property should not be taken for Democratic +use without due process of law. + +Certainly it is not the business of a Republican Senate to pull +the donkey of the Democrats out of the pit; the dug the pit, and +we have lost no donkey. + +I do not think the Senate called upon to fix up this Mills Bill, +to rectify its most glaring mistakes, and then for the sake of +saving a little, give up a great deal. What we have got is safe +until the Democrats have the power to pass a bill. We can protect +our rights by not passing their bills. In other words, we do not +wish to practice any great self-denial simply for the purpose of +insuring Democratic success. If the bill is sent back to the House, +no matter in what form, if it still has the name "Mills Bill" I +think the Democrats will vote for it simply to get out of their +trouble. They will have the President's message left. + +But I do hope that the Senate will investigate this business. It +is hardly fair to ask the Senate to take decided and final action +upon this bill in the last days of the session. There is no time +to consider it unless it is instantly defeated. This would probably +be a safe course, and yet, by accident, there may be some good +things in this bill that ought to be preserved, and certainly the +Democratic party ought to regard it as a compliment to keep it long +enough to read it. + +The interests involved are great--there are the commercial and +industrial interests of sixty millions of people. These questions +touch the prosperity of the Republic. Every person under the flag +has a direct interest in the solution of these questions. The end +that is now arrived at, the policy now adopted, may and probably +will last for many years. One can hardly overestimate the immensity +of the interests at stake. A man dealing with his own affairs +should take time to consider; he should give himself the benefit +of his best judgment. When acting for others he should do no less. +The Senators represent, or should represent, not only their own +views, but above these things they represent the material interests +of their constituents, of their States, and to this trust they must +be true, and in order to be true, they must understand the material +interests of their States, and in order to be faithful, they must +understand how the proposed changes in the tariff will affect these +interests. This cannot be done in a moment. + +In my judgment, the best way is for the Senate, through the proper +committee, to hear testimony, to hear the views of intelligent men, +of interested men, of prejudiced men--that is to say, they should +look at the question from all sides. + +_Question_. The Senate is almost tied; do you think that any +Republicans are likely to vote in the interest of the President's +policy at this session? + +_Answer_. Of course I cannot pretend to answer that question from +any special knowledge, or on any information that others are not +in possession of. My idea is simply this: That a majority of the +Senators are opposed to the President's policy. A majority of the +Senate will, in my judgment, sustain the Republican policy; that +is to say, they will stand by the American system. A majority of +the Senate, I think, know that it will be impossible for us to +compete in the markets of the world with those nations in which +labor is far cheaper than it is in the United States, and that when +you make the raw material just the same, you have not overcome the +difference in labor, and until this is overcome we cannot successfully +compete in the markets of the world with those countries where +labor is cheaper. And there are only two ways to overcome this +difficulty--either the price of labor must go up in the other +countries or must go down in this. I do not believe that a majority +of the Senate can be induced to vote for a policy that will decrease +the wages of American workingmen. + +There is this curious thing: The President started out blowing +the trumpet of free trade. It gave, as the Democrats used to say, +"no uncertain sound." He blew with all his might. Messrs. Morrison, +Carlisle, Mills and many others joined the band. When the Mills +Bill was introduced it was heralded as the legitimate offspring of +the President's message. When the Democratic convention at St. +Louis met, the declaration was made that the President's message, +the Mills Bill, the Democratic platform of 1884 and the Democratic +platform of 1888, were all the same--all segments of one circle; +in fact, they were like modern locomotives--"all the parts +interchangeable." As soon as the Republican convention met, made +its platform and named its candidates, it is not free trade, but +freer trade; and now Mr. Mills, in the last speech that he was +permitted to make in favor of his bill, endeavored to show that it +was a high protective tariff measure. + +This is what lawyers call "a departure in pleading." That is to +say, it is a case that ought to be beaten on demurrer. + +--_New York Press_, July 29, 1888. + + +SOCIETY AND ITS CRIMINALS* + +[* Col. Robert G. Ingersoll was greatly interested in securing for +Chiara Cignarale a commutation of the death sentence to imprisonment +for life. In view of the fact that the great Agnostic has made a +close study of capital punishment, a reporter for the _World_ called +upon him a day or two ago for an interview touching modern reformatory +measures and the punishment of criminals. Speaking generally on the +subject Colonel Ingersoll said: ] + +I suppose that society--that is to say, a state or a nation--has +the right of self-defence. It is impossible to maintain society-- +that is to say, to protect the rights of individuals in life, in +property, in reputation, and in the various pursuits known as trades +and professions, without in some way taking care of those who +violate these rights. The principal object of all government should +be to protect those in the right from those in the wrong. There +are a vast number of people who need to be protected who are unable, +by reason of the defects in their minds and by the countless +circumstances that enter into the question of making a living, to +protect themselves. Among the barbarians there was, comparatively +speaking, but little difference. A living was made by fishing and +hunting. These arts were simple and easily learned. The principal +difference in barbarians consisted in physical strength and courage. +As a consequence, there were comparatively few failures. Most men +were on an equality. Now that we are somewhat civilized, life has +become wonderfully complex. There are hundreds of arts, trades, +and professions, and in every one of these there is great +competition. + +Besides all this, something is needed every moment. Civilized man +has less credit than the barbarian. There is something by which +everything can be paid for, including the smallest services. +Everybody demands payment, and he who fails to pay is a failure. +Owing to the competition, owing to the complexity of modern life, +owing to the thousand things that must be known in order to succeed +in any direction, on either side of the great highway that is called +Progress, are innumerable wrecks. As a rule, failure in some honest +direction, or at least in some useful employment, is the dawn of +crime. People who are prosperous, people who by reasonable labor +can make a reasonable living, who, having a little leisure can lay +in a little for the winter that comes to all, are honest. + +As a rule, reasonable prosperity is virtuous. I don't say great +prosperity, because it is very hard for the average man to withstand +extremes. When people fail under this law, or rather this fact, +of the survival of the fittest, they endeavor to do by some illegal +way that which they failed to do in accordance with law. Persons +driven from the highway take to the fields, and endeavor to reach +their end or object in some shorter way, by some quicker path, +regardless of its being right or wrong. + +I have said this much to show that I regard criminals as unfortunates. +Most people regard those who violate the law with hatred. They do +not take into consideration the circumstances. They do not believe +that man is perpetually acted upon. They throw out of consideration +the effect of poverty, of necessity, and above all, of opportunity. +For these reasons they regard criminals with feelings of revenge. +They wish to see them punished. They want them imprisoned or +hanged. They do not think the law has been vindicated unless +somebody has been outraged. I look at these things from an entirely +different point of view. I regard these people who are in the +clutches of the law not only as unfortunates, but, for the most +part, as victims. You may call them victims of nature, or of +nations, or of governments; it makes no difference, they are victims. +Under the same circumstances the very persons who punish them would +be punished. But whether the criminal is a victim or not, the +honest man, the industrious man, has the right to defend the product +of his labor. He who sows and plows should be allowed to reap, +and he who endeavors to take from him his harvest is what we call +a criminal; and it is the business of society to protect the honest +from the dishonest. + +Without taking into account whether the man is or is not responsible, +still society has the right of self-defence. Whether that right +of self-defence goes to the extent of taking life, depends, I +imagine, upon the circumstances in which society finds itself +placed. A thousand men on a ship form a society. If a few men +should enter into a plot for the destruction of the ship, or for +turning it over to pirates, or for poisoning and plundering the +most of the passengers--if the passengers found this out certainly +they would have the right of self-defence. They might not have +the means to confine the conspirators with safety. Under such +circumstances it might be perfectly proper for them to destroy +their lives and to throw their worthless bodies into the sea. But +what society has the right to do depends upon the circumstances. +Now, in my judgment, society has the right to do two things--to +protect itself and to do what it can to reform the individual. +Society has no right to take revenge; no right to torture a convict; +no right to do wrong because some individual has done wrong. I am +opposed to all corporal punishment in penitentiaries. I am opposed +to anything that degrades a criminal or leaves upon him an unnecessary +stain, or puts upon him any stain that he did not put upon himself. + +Most people defend capital punishment on the ground that the man +ought to be killed because he has killed another. The only real +ground for killing him, even if that be good, is not that he has +killed, but that he may kill. What he has done simply gives evidence +of what he may do, and to prevent what he may do, instead of to +revenge what he has done, should be the reason given. + +Now, there is another view. To what extent does it harden the +community for the Government to take life? Don't people reason in +this way: That man ought to be killed; the Government, under the +same circumstances, would kill him, therefore I will kill him? +Does not the Government feed the mob spirit--the lynch spirit? +Does not the mob follow the example set by the Government? The +Government certainly cannot say that it hangs a man for the purpose +of reforming him. Its feelings toward that man are only feelings +of revenge and hatred. These are the same feelings that animate +the lowest and basest mob. + +Let me give you an example. In the city of Bloomington, in the +State of Illinois, a man confined in the jail, in his efforts to +escape, shot and, I believe, killed the jailer. He was pursued, +recaptured, brought back and hanged by a mob. The man who put the +rope around his neck was then under indictment for an assault to +kill and was out on bail, and after the poor wretch was hanged +another man climbed the tree and, in a kind of derision, put a +piece of cigar between the lips of the dead man. The man who did +this had also been indicted for a penitentiary offence and was then +out on bail. + +I mention this simply to show the kind of people you find in mobs. +Now, if the Government had a greater and nobler thought; if the +Government said: "We will reform; we will not destroy; but if the +man is beyond reformation we will simply put him where he can do +no more harm," then, in my judgment, the effect would be far better. +My own opinion is, that the effect of an execution is bad upon the +community--degrading and debasing. The effect is to cheapen human +life; and, although a man is hanged because he has taken human +life, the very fact that his life is taken by the Government tends +to do away with the idea that human life is sacred. + +Let me give you an illustration. A man in the city of Washington +went to Alexandria, Va., for the purpose of seeing a man hanged +who had murdered an old man and a woman for the purpose of getting +their money. On his return from that execution he came through +what is called the Smithsonian grounds. This was on the same day, +late in the evening. There he met a peddler, whom he proceeded to +murder for his money. He was arrested in a few hours, in a little +while was tried and convicted, and in a little while was hanged. +And another man, present at this second execution, went home on +that same day, and, in passing by a butcher-shop near his house, +went in, took from the shop a cleaver, went into his house and +chopped his wife's head off. + +This, I say, throws a little light upon the effect of public +executions. In the Cignarale case, of course the sentence should +have been commuted. I think, however, that she ought not to be +imprisoned for life. From what I read of the testimony I think +she should have been pardoned. + +It is hard, I suppose, for a man fully to understand and enter into +the feelings of a wife who has been trampled upon, abused, bruised, +and blackened by the man she loved--by the man who made to her the +vows of eternal affection. The woman, as a rule, is so weak, so +helpless. Of course, it does not all happen in a moment. It comes +on as the night comes. She notices that he does not act quite as +affectionately as he formerly did. Day after day, month after +month, she feels that she is entering a twilight. But she hopes +that she is mistaken, and that the light will come again. The +gloom deepens, and at last she is in midnight--a midnight without +a star. And this man, whom she once worshiped, is now her enemy-- +one who delights to trample upon every sentiment she has--who +delights in humiliating her, and who is guilty of a thousand nameless +tyrannies. Under these circumstances, it is hardly right to hold +that woman accountable for what she does. It has always seemed to +me strange that a woman so circumstanced--in such fear that she +dare not even tell her trouble--in such fear that she dare not even +run away--dare not tell a father or a mother, for fear that she +will be killed--I say, that in view of all this, it has always +seemed strange to me that so few husbands have been poisoned. + +The probability is that society raises its own criminals. It plows +the land, sows the seed, and harvests the crop. I believe that +the shadow of the gibbet will not always fall upon the earth. I +believe the time will come when we shall know too much to raise +criminals--know too much to crowd those that labor into the dens +and dungeons that we call tenements, while the idle live in palaces. +The time will come when men will know that real progress means the +enfranchisement of the whole human race, and that our interests +are so united, so interwoven, that the few cannot be happy while +the many suffer; so that the many cannot be happy while the few +suffer; so that none can be happy while one suffers. In other +words, it will be found that the human race is interested in each +individual. When that time comes we will stop producing criminals; +we will stop producing failures; we will not leave the next generation +to chance; we will not regard the gutter as a proper nursery for +posterity. + +People imagine that if the thieves are sent to the penitentiary, +that is the last of the thieves; that if those who kill others are +hanged, society is on a safe and enduring basis. But the trouble +is here: A man comes to your front door and you drive him away. +You have an idea that that man's case is settled. You are mistaken. +He goes to the back door. He is again driven away. But the case +is not settled. The next thing you know he enters at night. He +is a burglar. He is caught; he is convicted; he is sent to the +penitentiary, and you imagine that the case is settled. But it is +not. You must remember that you have to keep all the agencies +alive for the purpose of taking care of these people. You have to +build and maintain your penitentiaries, your courts of justice; +you have to pay your judges, your district attorneys, your juries, +you witnesses, your detectives, your police--all these people must +be paid. So that, after all, it is a very expensive way of settling +this question. You could have done it far more cheaply had you +found this burglar when he was a child; had you taken his father +and mother from the tenement house, or had you compelled the owners +to keep the tenement clean; or if you had widened the streets, if +you had planted a few trees, if you had had plenty of baths, if +you had had a school in the neighborhood. If you had taken some +interest in this family--some interest in this child--instead of +breaking into houses, he might have been a builder of houses. + +There is, and it cannot be said too often, no reforming influence +in punishment; no reforming power in revenge. Only the best of +men should be in charge of penitentiaries; only the noblest minds +and the tenderest hearts should have the care of criminals. +Criminals should see from the first moment that they enter a +penitentiary that it is filled with the air of kindness, full of +the light of hope. The object should be to convince every criminal +that he has made a mistake; that he has taken the wrong way; that +the right way is the easy way, and that the path of crime never +did and never can lead to happiness; that that idea is a mistake, +and that the Government wishes to convince him that he has made a +mistake; wishes to open his intellectual eyes; wishes so to educate +him, so to elevate him, that he will look back upon what he has +done, only with horror. This is reformation. Punishment is not. +When the convict is taken to Sing Sing or to Auburn, and when a +striped suit of clothes is put upon him--that is to say, when he +is made to feel the degradation of his position--no step has been +taken toward reformation. You have simply filled his heart with +hatred. Then, when he has been abused for several years, treated +like a wild beast, and finally turned out again in the community, +he has no thought, in a majority of cases, except to "get even" +with those who have persecuted him. He feels that it is a +persecution. + +_Question_. Do you think that men are naturally criminals and +naturally virtuous? + +_Answer_. I think that man does all that he does naturally--that +is to say, a certain man does a certain act under certain circumstances, +and he does this naturally. For instance, a man sees a five dollar +bill, and he knows that he can take it without being seen. Five +dollars is no temptation to him. Under the circumstances it is +not natural that he should take it. The same man sees five million +dollars, and feels that he can get possession of it without detection. +If he takes it, then under the circumstances, that was natural to +him. And yet I believe there are men above all price, and that no +amount of temptation or glory or fame could mislead them. Still, +whatever man does, is or was natural to him. + +Another view of the subject is this: I have read that out of fifty +criminals who had been executed it was found, I believe, in nearly +all the cases, that the shape of the skull was abnormal. Whether +this is true or not, I don't know; but that some men have a tendency +toward what we call crime, I believe. Where this has been ascertained, +then, it seems to me, such men should be placed where they cannot +multiply their kind. Women who have a criminal tendency should be +placed where they cannot increase their kind. For hardened criminals +--that is to say, for the people who make crime a business--it +would probably be better to separate the sexes; to send the men to +one island, the women to another. Let them be kept apart, to the +end that people with criminal tendencies may fade from the earth. +This is not prompted by revenge. This would not be done for the +purpose of punishing these people, but for the protection of society +--for the peace and happiness of the future. + +My own belief is that the system in vogue now in regard to the +treatment of criminals in many States produces more crime than it +prevents. Take, for instance, the Southern States. There is hardly +a chapter in the history of the world the reading of which could +produce greater indignation than the history of the convict system +in many of the Southern States. These convicts are hired out for +the purpose of building railways, or plowing fields, or digging +coal, and in some instances the death-rate has been over twelve +per cent. a month. The evidence shows that no respect was paid to +the sexes--men and women were chained together indiscriminately. +The evidence also shows that for the slightest offences they were +shot down like beasts. They were pursued by hounds, and their +flesh was torn from their bones. + +So in some of the Northern prisons they have what they call the +weighing machine--an infamous thing, and he who uses it commits as +great a crime as the convict he punishes could have committed. +All these things are degrading, debasing, and demoralizing. There +is no need of any such punishment in any penitentiary. Let the +punishment be of such kind that the convict is responsible himself. +For instance, if the convict refuses to obey a reasonable rule he +can be put into a cell. He can be fed when he obeys the rule. + +If he goes hungry it is his own fault. It depends upon himself to +say when he shall eat. Or he may be placed in such a position that +if he does not work--if he does not pump--the water will rise and +drown him. If the water does rise it is his fault. Nobody pours +it upon him. He takes his choice. + +These are suggested as desperate cases, but I can imagine no case +where what is called corporal punishment should be inflicted, and +the reason I am against it is this: I am opposed to any punishment +that cannot be inflicted by a gentleman. I am opposed to any +punishment the infliction of which tends to harden and debase the +man who inflicts it. I am for no laws that have to be carried out +by human curs. + +Take, for instance, the whipping-post. Nothing can be more degrading. +The man who applies the lash is necessarily a cruel and vulgar man, +and the oftener he applies it the more and more debased he will +become. The whole thing can be stated in the one sentence: I am +opposed to any punishment that cannot be inflicted by a gentleman, +and by "gentleman" I mean a self-respecting, honest, generous man. + +_Question_. What do you think of the efficacy or the propriety of +punishing criminals by solitary confinement? + +_Answer_. Solitary confinement is a species of torture. I am +opposed to all torture. I think the criminal should not be punished. +He should be reformed, if he is capable of reformation. But, +whatever is done, it should not be done as a punishment. Society +should be too noble, too generous, to harbor a thought of revenge. +Society should not punish, it should protect itself only. It should +endeavor to reform the individual. Now, solitary confinement does +not, I imagine, tend to the reformation of the individual. Neither +can the person in that position do good to any human being. The +prisoner will be altogether happier when his mind is engaged, when +his hands are busy, when he has something to do. This keeps alive +what we call cheerfulness. And let me say a word on this point. + +I don't believe that the State ought to steal the labor of a convict. +Here is a man who has a family. He is sent to the penitentiary. +He works from morning till night. Now, in my judgment, he ought +to be paid for the labor over and above what it costs to keep him. +That money should be sent to his family. That money should be +subject, at least, to his direction. If he is a single man, when +he comes out of the penitentiary he should be given his earnings, +and all his earnings, so that he would not have the feeling that +he had been robbed. A statement should be given to him to show what +it had cost to keep him and how much his labor had brought and the +balance remaining in his favor. With this little balance he could +go out into the world with something like independence. This little +balance would be a foundation for his honesty--a foundation for a +resolution on his part to be a man. But now each one goes out with +the feeling that he has not only been punished for the crime which +he committed, but that he has been robbed of the results of his +labor while there. + +The idea is simply preposterous that the people sent to the +penitentiary should live in idleness. They should have the benefit +of their labor, and if you give them the benefit of their labor +they will turn out as good work as if they were out of the +penitentiary. They will have the same reason to do their best. +Consequently, poor articles, poorly constructed things, would not +come into competition with good articles made by free people outside +of the walls. + +Now many mechanics are complaining because work done in the +penitentiaries is brought into competition with their work. But +the only reason that convict work is cheaper is because the poor +wretch who does it is robbed. The only reason that the work is +poor is because the man who does it has no interest in its being +good. If he had the profit of his own labor he would do the best +that was in him, and the consequence would be that the wares +manufactured in the prisons would be as good as those manufactured +elsewhere. For instance, we will say here are three or four men +working together. They are all free men. One commits a crime and +he is sent to the penitentiary. Is it possible that his companions +would object to his being paid for honest work in the penitentiary? + +And let me say right here, all labor is honest. Whoever makes a +useful thing, the labor is honest, no matter whether the work is +done in a penitentiary or in a palace; in a hovel or the open field. +Wherever work is done for the good of others, it is honest work. +If the laboring men would stop and think, they would know that they +support everybody. Labor pays all the taxes. Labor supports all +the penitentiaries. Labor pays the warden. Labor pays everything, +and if the convicts are allowed to live in idleness labor must pay +their board. Every cent of tax is borne by the back of labor. No +matter whether your tariff is put on champagne and diamonds, it +has to be paid by the men and women who work--those who plow in +the fields, who wash and iron, who stand by the forge, who run the +cars and work in the mines, and by those who battle with the waves +of the sea. Labor pays every bill. + +There is one little thing to which I wish to call the attention of +all who happen to read this interview, and that is this: Undoubtedly +you think of all criminals with horror and when you hear about them +you are, in all probability, filled with virtuous indignation. +But, first of all, I want you to think of what you have in fact +done. Secondly, I want you to think of what you have wanted to +do. Thirdly, I want you to reflect whether you were prevented from +doing what you wanted to do by fear or by lack of opportunity. +Then perhaps you will have more charity. + +_Question_. What do you think of the new legislation in the State +changing the death penalty to death by electricity? + +_Answer_. If death by electricity is less painful than hanging, +then the law, so far as that goes, is good. There is not the +slightest propriety in inflicting upon the person executed one +single unnecessary pang, because that partakes of the nature of +revenge--that is to say, of hatred--and, as a consequence, the +State shows the same spirit that the criminal was animated by when +he took the life of his neighbor. If the death penalty is to be +inflicted, let it be done in the most humane way. For my part, I +should like to see the criminal removed, if he must be removed, +with the same care and with the same mercy that you would perform +a surgical operation. Why inflict pain? Who wants it inflicted? +What good can it, by any possibility, do? To inflict unnecessary +pain hardens him who inflicts it, hardens each among those who +witness it, and tends to demoralize the community. + +_Question_. Is it not the fact that punishments have grown less +and less severe for many years past? + +_Answer_. In the old times punishment was the only means of +reformation. If anybody did wrong, punish him. If people still +continued to commit the same offence, increase the punishment; and +that went on until in what they call "civilized countries" they +hanged people, provided they stole the value of one shilling. But +larceny kept right on. There was no diminution. So, for treason, +barbarous punishments were inflicted. Those guilty of that offence +were torn asunder by horses; their entrails were cut out of them +while they were yet living and thrown into their faces; their bodies +were quartered and their heads were set on pikes above the gates +of the city. Yet there was a hundred times more treason then than +now. Every time a man was executed and mutilated and tortured in +this way the seeds of other treason were sown. + +So in the church there was the same idea. No reformation but by +punishment. Of course in this world the punishment stopped when +the poor wretch was dead. It was found that that punishment did +not reform, so the church said: "After death it will go right on, +getting worse and worse, forever and forever." Finally it was +found that this did not tend to the reformation of mankind. Slowly +the fires of hell have been dying out. The climate has been changing +from year to year. Men have lost confidence in the power of the +thumbscrew, the fagot, and the rack here, and they are losing +confidence in the flames of perdition hereafter. In other words, +it is simply a question of civilization. + +When men become civilized in matters of thought, they will know +that every human being has the right to think for himself, and the +right to express his honest thought. Then the world of thought +will be free. At that time they will be intelligent enough to know +that men have different thoughts, that their ways are not alike, +because they have lived under different circumstances, and in that +time they will also know that men act as they are acted upon. And +it is my belief that the time will come when men will no more think +of punishing a man because he has committed the crime of larceny +than they will think of punishing a man because he has the consumption. +In the first case they will endeavor to reform him, and in the +second case they will endeavor to cure him. + +The intelligent people of the world, many of them, are endeavoring +to find out the great facts in Nature that control the dispositions +of men. So other intelligent people are endeavoring to ascertain +the facts and conditions that govern what we call health, and what +we call disease, and the object of these people is finally to +produce a race without disease of flesh and without disease of +mind. These people look forward to the time when there need to be +neither hospitals nor penitentiaries. + +--_New York World_, August 5, 1888. + + +WOMAN'S RIGHT TO DIVORCE. + +_Question_. Col. Robert G. Ingersoll, the great Agnostic, has +always been an ardent defender of the sanctity of the home and of +the marriage relation. Apropos of the horrible account of a man's +tearing out the eyes of his wife at Far Rockaway last week, Colonel +Ingersoll was asked what recourse a woman had under such +circumstances? + +_Answer_. I read the account, and I don't remember of ever having +read anything more perfectly horrible and cruel. It is impossible +for me to imagine such a monster, or to account for such an inhuman +human being. How a man could deprive a human being of sight, except +where some religious question is involved, is beyond my comprehension. +We know that for many centuries frightful punishments were inflicted, +and inflicted by the pious, by the theologians, by the spiritual +minded, and by those who "loved their neighbors as themselves." +We read the accounts of how the lids of men's eyes were cut off +and then the poor victims tied where the sum would shine upon their +lifeless orbs; of others who were buried alive; of others staked +out on the sands of the sea, to be drowned by the rising tide; of +others put in sacks filled with snakes. Yet these things appeared +far away, and we flattered ourselves that, to a great degree, the +world had outgrown these atrocities; and now, here, near the close +of the nineteenth century, we find a man--a husband--cruel enough +to put out the eyes of the woman he swore to love, protect and +cherish. This man has probably been taught that there is forgiveness +for every crime, and now imagines that when he repents there will +be more joy in heaven over him than over ninety and nine good and +loving husbands who have treated their wives in the best possible +manner, and who, instead of tearing out their eyes, have filled +their lives with content and covered their faces with kisses. + +_Question_. You told me, last week, in a general way, what society +should do with the husband in such a case as that. I would like +to ask you to-day, what you think society ought to do with the wife +in such a case, or what ought the wife to be permitted to do for +herself? + +_Answer_. When we take into consideration the crime of the man +who blinded his wife, it is impossible not to think of the right +of divorce. Many people insist that marriage is an indissoluble +tie; that nothing can break it, and that nothing can release either +party from the bond. Now, take this case at Far Rockaway. One +year ago the husband tore out one of his wife's eyes. Had she then +good cause for divorce? Is it possible that an infinitely wise +and good God would insist on this poor, helpless woman remaining +with the wild beast, her husband? Can anyone imagine that such a +course would add to the joy of Paradise, or even tend to keep one +harp in tune? Can the good of society require the woman to remain? +She did remain, and the result is that the other eye has been torn +from its socket by the hands of the husband. Is she entitled to +a divorce now? And if she is granted one, is virtue in danger, +and shall we lose the high ideal of home life? Can anything be +more infamous than to endeavor to make a woman, under such +circumstances, remain with such a man? It may be said that she +should leave him--that they should live separate and apart. That +is to say, that this woman should be deprived of a home; that she +should not be entitled to the love of man; that she should remain, +for the rest of her days, worse than a widow. That is to say, a +wife, hiding, keeping out of the way, secreting herself from the +hyena to whom she was married. Nothing, in my judgment, can exceed +the heartlessness of a law or of a creed that would compel this +woman to remain the wife of this monster. And it is not only cruel, +but it is immoral, low, vulgar. + +The ground has been taken that woman would lose her dignity if +marriages were dissoluble. Is it necessary to lose your freedom +in order to retain your character, in order to be womanly or manly? +Must a woman in order to retain her womanhood become a slave, a +serf, with a wild beast for a master, or with society for a master, +or with a phantom for a master? Has not the married woman the +right of self-defence? Is it not the duty of society to protect +her from her husband? If she owes no duty to her husband; if it +is impossible for her to feel toward him any thrill of affection, +what is there of marriage left? What part of the contract remains +in force? She is not to live with him, because she abhors him. +She is not to remain in the same house with him, for fear he may +kill her. What, then, are their relations? Do they sustain any +relation except that of hunter and hunted--that is, of tyrant and +victim? And is it desirable that this relation should be rendered +sacred by a church? Is it desirable to have families raised under +such circumstances? Are we really in need of the children born of +such parents? If the woman is not in fault, does society insist +that her life should be wrecked? Can the virtue of others be +preserved only by the destruction of her happiness, and by what +might be called her perpetual imprisonment? I hope the clergy who +believe in the sacredness of marriage--in the indissolubility of +the marriage tie--will give their opinions on this case. I believe +that marriage is the most important contract that human beings can +make. I always believe that a man will keep his contract; that a +woman, in the highest sense, will keep hers, But suppose the man +does not. Is the woman still bound? + +Is there no mutuality? What is a contract? It is where one party +promises to do something in consideration that the other party will +do something. That is to say, there is a consideration on both +sides, moving from one to the other. A contract without consideration +is null and void; and a contract duly entered into, where the +consideration of one party is withheld, is voidable, and can be +voided by the party who has kept, or who is willing to keep, the +contract. A marriage without love is bad enough. But what can we +say of a marriage where the parties hate each other? Is there any +morality in this--any virtue? Will any decent person say that a +woman, true, good and loving, should be compelled to live with a +man she detests, compelled to be the mother of his children? Is +there a woman in the world who would not shrink from this herself? +And is there a woman so heartless and so immoral that she would +force another to bear what she would shudderingly avoid? Let us +bring these questions home. In other words, let us have some sense, +some feeling, some heart--and just a little brain. Marriages are +made by men and women. They are not made by the State, and they +are not made by the gods. By this time people should learn that +human happiness is the foundation of virtue--the foundation of +morality. Nothing is moral that does not tend to the well-being +of sentient beings. Nothing is virtuous the result of which is +not a human good. The world has always been living for phantoms, +for ghosts, for monsters begotten by ignorance and fear. The world +should learn to live for itself. Man should, by this time, be +convinced that all the reasons for doing right, and all the reasons +for doing wrong, are right here in this world--all within the +horizon of this life. And besides, we should have imagination to +put ourselves in the place of another. Let a man suppose himself +a helpless wife, beaten by a brute who believes in the indissolubility +of marriage. Would he want a divorce? + +I suppose that very few people have any adequate idea of the +sufferings of women and children; of the number of wives who tremble +when they hear the footsteps of a returning husband; of the number +of children who hide when they hear the voice of a father. Very +few people know the number of blows that fall on the flesh of the +helpless every day. Few know the nights of terror passed by mothers +holding young children at their breasts. Compared with this, the +hardships of poverty, borne by those who love each other, are +nothing. Men and women, truly married, bear the sufferings of +poverty. They console each other; their affection gives to the +heart of each perpetual sunshine. But think of the others! I have +said a thousand times that the home is the unit of good government. +When we have kind fathers and loving mothers, then we shall have +civilized nations, and not until then. Civilization commences at +the hearthstone. When intelligence rocks the cradle--when the +house is filled with philosophy and kindness--you will see a world +a peace. Justice will sit in the courts, wisdom in the legislative +halls, and over all, like the dome of heaven, will be the spirit +of Liberty! + +_Question_. What is your idea with regard to divorce? + +_Answer_. My idea is this: As I said before, marriage is the most +sacred contract--the most important contract--that human beings can +make. As a rule, the woman dowers the husband with her youth--with +all she has. From this contract the husband should never be released +unless the wife has broken a condition; that is to say, has failed +to fulfill the contract of marriage. On the other hand, the woman +should be allowed a divorce for the asking. This should be granted +in public, precisely as the marriage should be in public. Every +marriage should be known. There should be witnesses, to the end +that the character of the contract entered into should be understood; +and as all marriage records should be kept, so the divorce should +be open, public and known. The property should be divided by a +court of equity, under certain regulations of law. If there are +children, they should be provided for through the property and the +parents. People should understand that men and women are not +virtuous by law. They should comprehend the fact that law does +not create virtue--that law is not the foundation, the fountain, +of love. They should understand that love is in the human heart, +and that real love is virtuous. People who love each other will +be true to each other. The death of love is the commencement of +vice. Besides this, there is a public opinion that has great +weight. When that public opinion is right, it does a vast amount +of good, and when wrong, a great amount of harm. People marry, or +should marry, because it increases the happiness of each and all. +But where the marriage turns out to have been a mistake, and where +the result is misery, and not happiness, the quicker they are +divorced the better, not only for themselves, but for the community +at large. These arguments are generally answered by some donkey +braying about free love, and by "free love" he means a condition +of society in which there is no love. The persons who make this +cry are, in all probability, incapable of the sentiment, of the +feeling, known as love. They judge others by themselves, and they +imagine that without law there would be no restraint. + +What do they say of natural modesty? Do they forget that people +have a choice? Do they not understand something of the human heart, +and that true love has always been as pure as the morning star? +Do they believe that by forcing people to remain together who +despise each other they are adding to the purity of the marriage +relation? Do they not know that all marriage is an outward act, +testifying to that which has happened in the heart? Still, I always +believe that words are wasted on such people. It is useless to +talk to anybody about music who is unable to distinguish one tune +from another. It is useless to argue with a man who regards his +wife as his property, and it is hardly worth while to suggest +anything to a gentleman who imagines that society is so constructed +that it really requires, for the protection of itself, that the +lives of good and noble women should be wrecked, I am a believer +in the virtue of women, in the honesty of man. The average woman +is virtuous; the average man is honest, and the history of the +world shows it. If it were not so, society would be impossible. +I don't mean by this that most men are perfect, but what I mean is +this: That there is far more good than evil in the average human +being, and that the natural tendency of most people is toward the +good and toward the right. And I most passionately deny that the +good of society demands that any good person should suffer. I do +not regard government as a Juggernaut, the wheels of which must, +of necessity, roll over and crush the virtuous, the self-denying +and the good. My doctrine is the exact opposite of what is known +as free love. I believe in the marriage of true minds and of true +hearts. But I believe that thousands of people are married who do +not love each other. That is the misfortune of our century. Other +things are taken into consideration--position, wealth, title and +the thousand things that have nothing to do with real affection. +Where men and women truly love each other, that love, in my judgment, +lasts as long as life. The greatest line that I know of in the +poetry of the world is in the 116th sonnet of Shakespeare: "Love +is not love which alters when it alteration finds." + +_Question_. Why do you make such a distinction between the rights +of man and the rights of women? + +_Answer_. The woman has, as her capital, her youth, her beauty. +We will say that she is married at twenty or twenty-five. In a +few years she has lost her beauty. During these years the man, so +far as capacity to make money is concerned--to do something--has +grown better and better. That is to say, his chances have improved; +hers have diminished. She has dowered him with the Spring of her +life, and as her life advances her chances decrease. Consequently, +I would give her the advantage, and I would not compel her to remain +with him against her will. It seems to me far worse to be a wife +upon compulsion than to be a husband upon compulsion. Besides +this, I have a feeling of infinite tenderness toward mothers. The +woman that bears children certainly should not be compelled to live +with a man whom she despises. The suffering is enough when the +father of the child is to her the one man of all the world. Many +people who have a mechanical apparatus in their breasts that assists +in the circulation of what they call blood, regard these views as +sentimental. But when you take sentiment out of the world nothing +is left worth living for, and when you get sentiment out of the +heart it is nothing more or less than a pump, an old piece of rubber +that has acquired the habit of contracting and dilating. But I +have this consolation: The people that do not agree with me are +those that do not understand me. + +--_New York World_, 1888. + + +SECULARISM. + +_Question_. Colonel, what is your opinion of Secularism? Do you +regard it as a religion? + +_Answer_. I understand that the word Secularism embraces everything +that is of any real interest or value to the human race. I take +it for granted that everybody will admit that well-being is the +only good; that is to say, that it is impossible to conceive of +anything of real value that does not tend either to preserve or to +increase the happiness of some sentient being. Secularism, therefore, +covers the entire territory. It fills the circumference of human +knowledge and of human effort. It is, you may say, the religion +of this world; but if there is another world, it is necessarily +the religion of that, as well. + +Man finds himself in this world naked and hungry. He needs food, +raiment, shelter. He finds himself filled with almost innumerable +wants. To gratify these wants is the principal business of life. +To gratify them without interfering with other people is the course +pursued by all honest men. + +Secularism teaches us to be good here and now. I know nothing +better than goodness. Secularism teaches us to be just here and +now. It is impossible to be juster than just. + +Man can be as just in this world as in any other, and justice must +be the same in all worlds. Secularism teaches a man to be generous, +and generosity is certainly as good here as it can be anywhere +else. Secularism teaches a man to be charitable, and certainly +charity is as beautiful in this world and in this short life as it +could be were man immortal. + +But orthodox people insist that there is something higher than +Secularism; but, as a matter of fact, the mind of man can conceive +of nothing better, nothing higher, nothing more spiritual, than +goodness, justice, generosity, charity. Neither has the mind of +men been capable of finding a nobler incentive to action than human +love. Secularism has to do with every possible relation. It says +to the young man and to the young woman: "Don't marry unless you +can take care of yourselves and your children." It says to the +parents: "Live for your children; put forth every effort to the +end that your children may know more than you--that they may be +better and grander than you." It says: "You have no right to +bring children into the world that you are not able to educate and +feed and clothe." It says to those who have diseases that can be +transmitted to children: "Do not marry; do not become parents; do +not perpetuate suffering, deformity, agony, imbecility, insanity, +poverty, wretchedness." + +Secularism tells all children to do the best they can for their +parents--to discharge every duty and every obligation. It defines +the relation that should exist between husband and wife; between +parent and child; between the citizen and the Nation. And not only +that, but between nations. + +Secularism is a religion that is to be used everywhere, and at all +times--that is to be taught everywhere and practiced at all times. +It is not a religion that is so dangerous that it must be kept out +of the schools; it is not a religion that is so dangerous that it +must be kept out of politics. It belongs in the schools; it belongs +at the polls. It is the business of Secularism to teach every +child; to teach every voter. It is its business to discuss all +political problems, and to decide all questions that affect the +rights or the happiness of a human being. + +Orthodox religion is a firebrand; it must be kept out of the schools; +it must be kept out of politics. All the churches unite in saying +that orthodox religion is not for every day use. The Catholics +object to any Protestant religion being taught to children. +Protestants object to any Catholic religion being taught to +children. But the Secularist wants his religion taught to all; +and his religion can produce no feeling, for the reason that it +consists of facts--of truths. And all of it is important; important +for the child, important for the parent, important for the politician +--for the President--for all in power; important to every legislator, +to every professional man, to every laborer and every farmer--that +is to say, to every human being. + +The great benefit of Secularism is that is appeals to the reason +of every man. It asks every man to think for himself. It does +not threaten punishment if a man thinks, but it offers a reward, +for fear that he will not think. It does not say, "You will be +damned in another world if you think." But it says, "You will be +damned in this world if you do not think." + +Secularism preserves the manhood and the womanhood of all. It says +to each human being: "Stand upon your own feet. Count one! +Examine for yourself. Investigate, observe, think. Express your +opinion. Stand by your judgment, unless you are convinced you are +wrong, and when you are convinced, you can maintain and preserve +your manhood or womanhood only by admitting that you were wrong." + +It is impossible that the whole world should agree on one creed. +It may be impossible that any two human beings can agree exactly +in religious belief. Secularism teaches that each one must take +care of himself, that the first duty of man is to himself, to the +end that he may be not only useful to himself, but to others. He +who fails to take care of himself becomes a burden; the first duty +of man is not to be a burden. + +Every Secularist can give a reason for his creed. First of all, +he believes in work--taking care of himself. He believes in the +cultivation of the intellect, to the end that he may take advantage +of the forces of nature--to the end that he may be clothed and fed +and sheltered. + +He also believes in giving to every other human being every right +that he claims for himself. He does not depend on prayer. He has +no confidence in ghosts or phantoms. He knows nothing of another +world, and knows just as little of a First Cause. But what little +he does know, he endeavors to use, and to use for the benefit of +himself and others. + +He knows that he sustains certain relations to other sentient +beings, and he endeavors to add to the aggregate of human joy. He +is his own church, his own priest, his own clergyman and his own +pope. He decides for himself; in other words, he is a free man. + +He also has a Bible, and this Bible embraces all the good and true +things that have been written, no matter by whom, or in what +language, or in what time. He accepts everything that he believes +to be true, and rejects all that he thinks is false. He knows that +nothing is added to the probability of an event, because there has +been an account of it written and printed. + +All that has been said that is true is part of his Bible. Every +splendid and noble thought, every good word, every kind action-- +all these you will find in his Bible. And, in addition to these, +all that is absolutely known--that has been demonstrated--belongs +to the Secularist. All the inventions, machines--everything that +has been of assistance to the human race--belongs to his religion. +The Secularist is in possession of everything that man has. He is +deprived only of that which man never had. The orthodox world +believes in ghosts and phantoms, in dreams and prayers, in miracles +and monstrosities; that is to say, in modern theology. But these +things do not exist, or if they do exist, it is impossible for a +human being to ascertain the fact. Secularism has no "castles in +Spain." It has no glorified fog. It depends upon realities, upon +demonstrations; and its end and aim is to make this world better +every day--to do away with poverty and crime, and to cover the +world with happy and contended homes. + +Let me say, right here, that a few years ago the Secular Hall at +Leicester, England, was opened by a speech from George Jacob +Holyoake, entitled, "Secularism as a Religion." I have never read +anything better on the subject of Secularism than this address. +It is so clear and so manly that I do not see how any human being +can read it without becoming convinced, and almost enraptured. + +Let me quote a few lies from this address:-- + +"The mind of man would die if it were not for Thought, and were +Thought suppressed, God would rule over a world of idiots. + +"Nature feeds Thought, day and night, with a million hands. + +"To think is a duty, because it is a man's duty not to be a fool. + +"If man does not think himself, he is an intellectual pauper, living +upon the truth acquired by others, and making no contribution +himself in return. He has no ideas but such as he obtains by 'out- +door relief,' and he goes about the world with a charity mind. + +"The more thinkers there are in the world, the more truth there is +in the world. + +"Progress can only walk in the footsteps of Conviction. + +"Coercion in thought is not progress, it reduces to ignominious +pulp the backbone of the mind. + +"By Religion I mean the simple creed of deed and duty, by which a +man seeks his own welfare in his own way, with an honest and fair +regard to the welfare and ways of others. + +"In these thinking and practical days, men demand a religion of +daily life, which stands on a business footing." + +I think nothing could be much better than the following, which +shows the exact relation that orthodox religion sustains to the +actual wants of human beings: + +"The Churches administer a system of Foreign Affairs. + +"Secularism dwells in a land of its own. It dwells in a land of +Certitude. + +"In the Kingdom of Thought there is no conquest over man, but over +foolishness only." + +I will not quote more, but hope all who read this will read the +address of Mr. Holyoake, who has, in my judgment, defined Secularism +with the greatest possible clearness. + +_Question_. What, in your opinion, are the best possible means to +spread this gospel or religion of Secularism? + +_Answer_. This can only be done by the cultivation of the mind-- +only through intelligence--because we are fighting only the monsters +of the mind. The phantoms whom we are endeavoring to destroy do +not exist; they are all imaginary. They live in that undeveloped +or unexplored part of the mind that belongs to barbarism. + +I have sometimes thought that a certain portion of the mind is +cultivated so that it rises above the surrounding faculties and is +like some peak that has lifted itself above the clouds, while all +the valleys below are dark or dim with mist and cloud. It is in +this valley-region, amid these mists, beneath these clouds, that +these monsters and phantoms are born. And there they will remain +until the mind sheds light--until the brain is developed. + +One exceedingly important thing is to teach man that his mind has +limitations; that there are walls that he cannot scale--that he +cannot pierce, that he cannot dig under. When a man finds the +limitations of his own mind, he knows that other people's minds +have limitations. He, instead of believing what the priest says, +he asks the priest questions. In a few moments he finds that the +priest has been drawing on his imagination for what is beyond the +wall. Consequently he finds that the priest knows no more than +he, and it is impossible that he should know more than he. + +An ignorant man has not the slightest suspicion of what a superior +man may do. Consequently, he is liable to become the victim of +the intelligent and cunning. A man wholly unacquainted with +chemistry, after having been shown a few wonders, is ready to +believe anything. But a chemist who knows something of the +limitations of that science--who knows what chemists have done and +who knows the nature of things--cannot be imposed upon. When no +one can be imposed upon, orthodox religion cannot exist. It is an +imposture, and there must be impostors and there must be victims, +or the religion cannot be a success. + +Secularism cannot be a success, universally, as long as there is +an impostor or a victim. This is the difference: The foundation +of orthodox religion is imposture. The foundation of Secularism +is demonstration. Just to the extent that a man knows, he becomes +a Secularist. + +_Question_. What do you think of the action of the Knights of +Labor in Indiana in turning out one of their members because he +was an Atheist, and because he objected to the reading of the Bible +at lodge meetings? + +_Answer_. In my judgment, the Knights of Labor have made a great +mistake. They want liberty for themselves--they feel that, to a +certain extent, they have been enslaved and robbed. If they want +liberty, they should be willing to give liberty to others. Certainly +one of their members has the same right to his opinion with regard +to the existence of a God, that the other members have to theirs. + +I do not blame this man for doubting the existence of a Supreme +Being, provided he understands the history of liberty. When a man +takes into consideration the fact that for many thousands of years +labor was unpaid, nearly all of it being done by slaves, and that +millions and hundreds of millions of human beings were bought and +sold the same as cattle, and that during all that time the religions +of the world upheld the practice, and the priests of the countless +unknown gods insisted that the institution of slavery was divine-- +I do not wonder that he comes to the conclusion that, perhaps, +after all, there is no Supreme Being--at least none who pays any +particular attention to the affairs of this world. + +If one will read the history of the slave-trade, of the cruelties +practiced, of the lives sacrificed, of the tortures inflicted, he +will at least wonder why "a God of infinite goodness and wisdom" +did not interfere just a little; or, at least, why he did not deny +that he was in favor of the trade. Here, in our own country, +millions of men were enslaved, and hundreds and thousands of +ministers stood up in their pulpits, with their Bibles in front of +them, and proceeded to show that slavery was about the only +institution that they were absolutely certain was divine. And they +proved it by reading passages from this very Bible that the Knights +of Labor in Indiana are anxious to have read in their meetings. +For their benefit, let me call their attention to a few passages, +and suggest that, hereafter, they read those passages at every +meeting, for the purpose of convincing all the Knights that the +Lord is on the side of those who work for a living:-- + +"Both thy bondsmen and thy bondsmaids which thou shalt have, shall +be of the heathen round about you; of them shall ye buy bondsmen +and bondmaids. + +"Moreover, of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among +you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families which are with +you, which they begat in your land; and they shall be your +possession. + +"And ye shall take them as an inheritance, for your children after +you to inherit them for a possession. They shall be your bondsmen +forever." + +Nothing seems more natural to me than that a man who believes that +labor should be free, and that he who works should be free, should +come to the conclusion that the passages above quoted are not +entirely on his side. I don't see why people should be in favor +of free bodies who are not also in favor of free minds. If the +mind is to remain in imprisonment, it is hardly worth while to free +the body. If the man has the right to labor, he certainly has the +right to use his mind, because without mind he can do no labor. +As a rule, the more mind he has, the more valuable his labor is, +and the freer his mind is the more valuable he is. + +If the Knights of Labor expect to accomplish anything in this world, +they must do it by thinking. They must have reason on their side, +and the only way they can do anything by thinking is to allow each +other to think. Let all the men who do not believe in the inspiration +of the Bible, leave the Knights of Labor and I do not know how many +would be left. But I am perfectly certain that those left will +accomplish very little, simply from their lack of sense. + +Intelligent clergymen have abandoned the idea of plenary inspiration. +The best ministers in the country admit that the Bible is full of +mistakes, and while many of them are forced to say that slavery is +upheld by the Old Testament they also insist that slavery was and +is, and forever will be wrong. What had the Knights of Labor to +do with a question of religion? What business is it of theirs who +believes or disbelieves in the religion of the day? Nobody can +defend the rights of labor without defending the right to think. + +I hope that in time these Knights will become intelligent enough +to read in their meetings something of importance; something that +applies to this century; something that will throw a little light +on questions under discussion at the present time. The idea of +men engaged in a kind of revolution reading from Leviticus, +Deuteronomy and Haggai, for the purpose of determining the rights +of workingmen in the nineteenth century! No wonder such men have +been swallowed by the whale of monopoly. And no wonder that, +while that are in the belly of this fish, they insist on casting +out a man with sense enough to understand the situation! The +Knights of Labor have made a mistake and the sooner they reverse +their action the better for all concerned. Nothing should be taught +in this world that somebody does not know. + +--_Secular Thought_, Toronto, Canada, August 25, 1888. + + +SUMMER RECREATION--MR. GLADSTONE. + +_Question_. What is the best philosophy of summer recreation? + +_Answer_. As a matter of fact, no one should be overworked. +Recreation becomes necessary only when a man has abused himself or +has been abused. Holidays grew out of slavery. An intelligent +man ought not to work so hard to-day that he is compelled to rest +to-morrow. Each day should have its labor and its rest. But in +our civilization, if it can be called civilization, every man is +expected to devote himself entirely to business for the most of +the year and by that means to get into such a state of body and +mind that he requires, for the purpose of recreation, the +inconveniences, the poor diet, the horrible beds, the little towels, +the warm water, the stale eggs and the tough beef of the average +"resort." For the purpose of getting his mental and physical +machinery in fine working order, he should live in a room for two +or three months that is about eleven by thirteen; that is to say, +he should live in a trunk, fight mosquitoes, quarrel with strangers, +dispute bills, and generally enjoy himself; and this is supposed +to be the philosophy of summer recreation. He can do this, or he +can go to some extremely fashionable resort where his time is taken +up in making himself and family presentable. + +Seriously, there are few better summer resorts than New York City. +If there were no city here it would be the greatest resort for the +summer on the continent; with its rivers, its bay, with its wonderful +scenery, with the winds from the sea, no better could be found. +But we cannot in this age of the world live in accordance with +philosophy. No particular theory can be carried out. We must live +as we must; we must earn our bread and we must earn it as others +do, and, as a rule, we must work when others work. Consequently, +if we are to take any recreation we must follow the example of +others; go when they go and come when they come. In other words, +man is a social being, and if one endeavors to carry individuality +to an extreme he must suffer the consequences. So I have made up +my mind to work as little as I can and to rest as much as I can. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of Mr. Gladstone as a controversialist? + +_Answer_. Undoubtedly Mr. Gladstone is a man of great talent, of +vast and varied information, and undoubtedly he is, politically +speaking, at least, one of the greatest men in England--possibly +the greatest. As a controversialist, and I suppose by that you +mean on religious questions, he is certainly as good as his cause. +Few men can better defend the indefensible than Mr. Gladstone. +Few men can bring forward more probabilities in favor of the +impossible, then Mr. Gladstone. He is, in my judgment, controlled +in the realm of religion by sentiment; he was taught long ago +certain things as absolute truths and he has never questioned them. +He has had all he can do to defend them. It is of but little use +to attack sentiment with argument, or to attack argument with +sentiment. A question of sentiment can hardly be discussed; it is +like a question of taste. A man is enraptured with a landscape by +Corot; you cannot argue him out of his rapture; the sharper the +criticism the greater his admiration, because he feels that it is +incumbent upon him to defend the painter who has given him so much +real pleasure. Some people imagine that what they think ought to +exist must exist, and that what they really desire to be true is +true. We must remember that Mr. Gladstone has been what is called +a deeply religions man all his life. There was a time when he +really believed it to be the duty of the government to see to it +that the citizens were religious; when he really believed that no +man should hold any office or any position under the government +who was not a believer in the established religion; who was not a +defender of the parliamentary faith. I do not know whether he has +ever changed his opinions upon these subjects or not. There is +not the slightest doubt as to his honesty, as to his candor. He +says what he believes, and for his belief he gives the reasons that +are satisfactory to him. To me it seems impossible that miracles +can be defended. I do not see how it is possible to bring forward +any evidence that any miracle was ever performed; and unless miracles +have been performed, Christianity has no basis as a system. Mr. +Hume took the ground that it was impossible to substantiate a +miracle, for the reason that it is more probable that the witnesses +are mistaken, or are dishonest, than that a fact in nature should +be violated. For instance: A man says that a certain time, in a +certain locality, the attraction of gravitation was suspended; that +there were several moments during which a cannon ball weighed +nothing, during which when dropped from the hand, or rather when +released from the hand, it refused to fall and remained in the air. +It is safe to say that no amount of evidence, no number of witnesses, +could convince an intelligent man to-day that such a thing occurred. +We believe too thoroughly in the constancy of nature. While men +will not believe witnesses who testify to the happening of miracles +now, they seem to have perfect confidence in men whom they never +saw, who have been dead for two thousand years. Of course it is +known that Mr. Gladstone has published a few remarks concerning my +religious views and that I have answered him the best I could. I +have no opinion to give as to that controversy; neither would it +be proper for me to say what I think of the arguments advanced by +Mr. Gladstone in addition to what I have already published. I am +willing to leave the controversy where it is, or I am ready to +answer any further objections that Mr. Gladstone may be pleased to +urge. + +In my judgment, the "Age of Faith" is passing away. We are living +in a time of demonstration. + +[NOTE: From an unfinished interview found among Colonel Ingersoll's +papers.] + + +PROHIBITION. + +It has been decided in many courts in various States that the +traffic in liquor can be regulated--that it is a police question. +It has been decided by the courts in Iowa that its manufacture and +sale can be prohibited, and, not only so, but that a distillery or +a brewery may be declared a nuisance and may legally be abated, +and these decisions have been upheld by the Supreme Court of the +United States. Consequently, it has been settled by the highest +tribunal that States have the power either to regulate or to prohibit +the sale of intoxicating liquors, and not only so, but that States +have the power to destroy breweries and distilleries without making +any compensation to owners. + +So it has always been considered within the power of the State to +license the selling of intoxicating liquors. In other words, this +question is one that the States can decide for themselves. It is +not, and it should not be, in my judgment, a Federal question. It +is something with which the United States has nothing to do. It +belongs to the States; and where a majority of the people are in +favor of prohibition and pass laws to that effect, there is nothing +in the Constitution of the United States that interferes with such +action. + +The remaining question, then, is not a question of power, but a +question of policy, and at the threshold of this question is another: +Can prohibitory laws be enforced? There are to-day in Kansas,--a +prohibition State--more saloons, that is to say, more places in +which liquor is sold, than there are in Georgia, a State without +prohibition legislation. There are more in Nebraska, according to +the population, more in Iowa, according to the population, than in +many of the States in which there is the old license system. You +will find that the United States has granted more licenses to +wholesale and retail dealers in these prohibition States,--according +to the population,--than in many others in which prohibition has +not been adopted. + +These facts tend to show that it is not enough for the Legislature +to say: "Be it enacted." Behind every law there must be an +intelligent and powerful public opinion. A law, to be enforced, +must be the expression of such powerful and intelligent opinion; +otherwise it becomes a dead letter; it is avoided; judges continue +the cases, juries refuse to convict, and witnesses are not particular +about telling the truth. Such laws demoralize the community, or, +to put it in another way, demoralized communities pass such laws. + +_Question_. What do you think of the prohibitory movement on +general principles? + +_Answer_. The trouble is that when a few zealous men, intending +to reform the world, endeavor to enforce unpopular laws, they are +compelled to resort to detectives, to a system of espionage. For +the purpose of preventing the sale of liquors somebody has to watch. +Eyes and ears must become acquainted with keyholes. Every neighbor +suspects every other. A man with a bottle or demijohn is followed. +Those who drink get behind doors, in cellars and garrets. Hypocrisy +becomes substantially universal. Hundreds of people become suddenly +afflicted with a variety of diseases, for the cure of which alcohol +in some form is supposed to be indispensable. Malaria becomes general, +and it is perfectly astonishing how long a few pieces of Peruvian +bark will last, and how often the liquor can be renewed without +absorbing the medicinal qualities of the bark. The State becomes +a paradise for patent medicine--the medicine being poor whiskey +with a scientific name. + +Physicians become popular in proportion as liquor of some kind +figures in their prescriptions. Then in the towns clubs are formed, +the principal object being to establish a saloon, and in many +instances the drug store becomes a favorite resort, especially on +Sundays. + +There is, however, another side to this question. It is this: +Nothing in the world is more important than personal liberty. Many +people are in favor of blotting out the sun to prevent the growth +of weeds. This is the mistake of all prohibitory fanaticism. + +_Question_. What is true temperance, Colonel Ingersoll? + +_Answer_. Men have used stimulants for many thousand years, and +as much is used to-day in various forms as in any other period of +the world's history. They are used with more prudence now than +ever before, for the reason that the average man is more intelligent +now than ever before. Intelligence has much to do with temperance. +The barbarian rushes to the extreme, for the reason that but little, +comparatively, depends upon his personal conduct or personal habits. +Now the struggle for life is so sharp, competition is so severe, +that few men can succeed who carry a useless burden. The business +men of our country are compelled to lead temperate lives, otherwise +their credit is gone. Men of wealth, men of intelligence, do not +wish to employ intemperate physicians. They are not willing to +trust their health or their lives with a physician who is under +the influence of liquor. The same is true of business men in regard +to their legal interests. They insist upon having sober attorneys; +they want the counsel of a sober man. So in every department. On +the railways it is absolutely essential that the engineer, that +the conductor, the train dispatcher and every other employee, in +whose hands are the lives of men, should be temperate. The +consequence is that under the law of the survival of the fittest, +the intemperate are slowly but surely going to the wall; they are +slowly but surely being driven out of employments of trust and +importance. As we rise in the scale of civilization we continually +demand better and better service. We are continually insisting +upon better habits, upon a higher standard of integrity, of fidelity. +These are the causes, in my judgment, that are working together in +the direction of true temperance. + +_Question_. Do you believe the people can be made to do without +a stimulant? + +_Answer_. The history of the world shows that all men who have +advanced one step beyond utter barbarism have used some kind of +stimulant. Man has sought for it in every direction. Every savage +loves it. Everything has been tried. Opium has been used by many +hundreds of millions. Hasheesh has filled countless brains with +chaotic dreams, and everywhere that civilization has gone the blood +of the grape has been used. Nothing is easier now to obtain than +liquor. In one bushel of corn there are at least five gallons-- +four can easily be extracted. All starch, all sugars, can be +changed almost instantly into alcohol. Every grain that grows has +in it the intoxicating principle, and, as a matter of fact, nearly +all of the corn, wheat, sugar and starch that man eats is changed +into alcohol in his stomach. Whether man can be compelled to do +without a stimulant is a question that I am unable to answer. Of +one thing I am certain: He has never yet been compelled to do +without one. The tendency, I think, of modern times is toward a +milder stimulant than distilled liquors. Whisky and brandies are +too strong; wine and beer occupy the middle ground. Wine is a +fireside, whisky a conflagration. + +It seems to me that it would be far better if the Prohibitionists +would turn their attention toward distilled spirits. If they were +willing to compromise, the probability is that they would have +public opinion on their side. If they would say: "You may have +all the beer and all the wine and cider you wish, and you can drink +them when and where you desire, but the sale of distilled spirits +shall be prohibited," it is possible that this could be carried +out in good faith in many if not in most of the States--possibly +in all. We all know the effect of wine, even when taken in excess, +is nothing near as disastrous as the effect of distilled spirits. +Why not take the middle ground? The wine drinkers of the old +country are not drunkards. They have been drinking wine for +generations. It is drunk by men, women and children. It adds to +the sociability of the family. It does not separate the husband +from the rest, it keeps them all together, and in that view is +rather a benefit than an injury. Good wine can be raised as cheaply +here as in any part of the world. In nearly every part of our +country the grape grows and good wine can be made. If our people +had a taste for wine they would lose the taste for stronger drink, +and they would be disgusted with the surroundings of the stronger +drink. + +The same may be said in favor of beer. As long as the Prohibitionists +make no distinction between wine and whisky, between beer and +brandy, just so long they will be regarded by most people as +fanatics. + +The Prohibitionists cannot expect to make this question a Federal +one. The United States has no jurisdiction of this subject. +Congress can pass no laws affecting this question that could have +any force except in such parts of our country as are not within +the jurisdiction of States. It is a question for the States and +not for the Federal Government. The Prohibitionists are simply +throwing away their votes. Let us suppose that we had a Prohibition +Congress and a Prohibition President--what steps could be taken to +do away with drinking in the city of New York? What steps could +be taken in any State of this Union? What could by any possibility +be done? + +A few years ago the Prohibitionists demanded above all things that +the tax be taken from distilled spirits, claiming at that time that +such a tax made the Government a partner in vice. + +Now when the Republican party proposes under certain circumstances +to remove that tax, the Prohibitionists denounce the movement as +one in favor of intemperance. We have also been told that the tax +on whisky should be kept for the reason that it increases the price, +and that an increased price tends to make a temperate people; that +if the tax is taken off, the price will fall and the whole country +start on the downward road to destruction. Is it possible that +human nature stands on such slippery ground? It is possible that +our civilization to-day rests upon the price of alcohol, and that, +should the price be reduced, we would all go down together? For +one, I cannot entertain such a humiliating and disgraceful view of +human nature. I believe that man is destined to grow greater, +grander and nobler. I believe that no matter what the cost of +alcohol may be, life will grow too valuable to be thrown away. +Men hold life according to its value. Men, as a rule, only throw +away their lives when they are not worth keeping. When life becomes +worth living it will be carefully preserved and will be hoarded to +the last grain of sand that falls through the glass of time. + +_Question_. What is the reason for so much intemperance? + +_Answer_. When many people are failures, when they are distanced +in the race, when they fall behind, when they give up, when they +lose ambition, when they finally become convinced that they are +worthless, precisely as they are in danger of becoming dishonest. +In other words, having failed in the race of life on the highway, +they endeavor to reach to goal by going across lots, by crawling +through the grass. Disguise this matter as we may, all people are +not successes, all people have not the brain or the muscle or the +moral stamina necessary to succeed. Some fall in one way, some in +another; some in the net of strong drink, some in the web of +circumstances and others in a thousand ways, and the world itself +cannot grow better unless the unworthy fail. The law is the survival +of the fittest, that is to say, the destruction of the unfit. +There is no scheme of morals, no scheme of government, no scheme +of charity, that can reverse this law. If it could be reversed, +then the result would be the survival of the unfittest, the speedy +end of which would be the extinction of the human race. + +Temperance men say that it is wise, in so far as possible, to remove +temptation from our fellow-men. + +Let us look at this in regard to other matters. How do we do away +with larceny? We cannot remove property. We cannot destroy the +money of the world to keep people from stealing some of it. In +other words, we cannot afford to make the world valueless to prevent +larceny. All strength by which temptation is resisted must come +from the inside. Virtue does not depend upon the obstacles to be +overcome; virtue depends upon what is inside of the man. A man is +not honest because the safe of the bank is perfectly secure. Upon +the honest man the condition of the safe has no effect. We will +never succeed in raising great and splendid people by keeping them +out of temptation. Great people withstand temptation. Great people +have what may be called moral muscle, moral force. They are poised +within themselves. They understand their relations to the world. +The best possible foundation for honesty is the intellectual +perception that dishonesty can, under no circumstances, be a good +investment--that larceny is not only wicked, but foolish--not only +criminal, but stupid--that crimes are committed only by fools. + +On every hand there is what is called temptation. Every man has +the opportunity of doing wrong. Every man, in this country, has +the opportunity of drinking too much, has the opportunity of +acquiring the opium habit, has the opportunity of taking morphine +every day--in other words, has the opportunity of destroying himself. +How are they to be prevented? Most of them are prevented--at least +in a reasonable degree--and they are prevented by their intelligence, +by their surroundings, by their education, by their objects and +aims in life, by the people they love, by the people who love them. + +No one will deny the evils of intemperance, and it is hardly to be +wondered at that people who regard only one side--who think of the +impoverished and wretched, of wives and children in want, of desolate +homes--become the advocates of absolute prohibition. At the same +time, there is a philosophic side, and the question is whether more +good cannot be done by moral influence, by example, by education, +by the gradual civilization of our fellow-men, than in any other +possible way. The greatest things are accomplished by indirection. +In this way the idea of force, of slavery, is avoided. The person +influenced does not feel that he has been trampled upon, does not +regard himself as a victim--he feels rather as a pupil, as one who +receives a benefit, whose mind has been enlarged, whose life has +been enriched--whereas the direct way of "Thou shalt not" produces +an antagonism--in other words, produces the natural result of "I +will." + +By removing one temptation you add strength to others. By depriving +a man of one stimulant, as a rule, you drive him to another, and +the other may be far worse than the one from which he has been +driven. We have hundreds of laws making certain things misdemeanors, +which are naturally right. + +Thousands of people, honest in most directions, delight in outwitting +the Government--derive absolute pleasure from getting in a few +clothes and gloves and shawls without the payment of duty. Thousands +of people buy things in Europe for which they pay more than they +would for the same things in America, and then exercise their +ingenuity in slipping them through the custom-house. + +A law to have real force must spring from the nature of things, +and the justice of this law must be generally perceived, otherwise +it will be evaded. + +The temperance people themselves are playing into the hands of the +very party that would refuse to count their votes. Allow the +Democrats to remain in power, allow the Democrats to be controlled +by the South, and a large majority might be in favor of temperance +legislation, and yet the votes would remain uncounted. The party +of reform has a great interest in honest elections, and honest +elections must first be obtained as the foundation of reform. The +Prohibitionists can take their choice between these parties. Would +it not be far better for the Prohibitionists to say: "We will vote +for temperance men; we will stand with the party that is the nearest +in favor of what we deem to be the right"? They should also take +into consideration that other people are as honest as they; that +others disbelieve in prohibition as honestly as they believe in +it, and that other people cannot leave their principles to vote +for prohibition; and they must remember, that these other people +are in the majority. + +Mr. Fisk knows that he cannot be elected President--knows that it +is impossible for him to carry any State in the Union. He also +knows that in nearly every State in the Union--probably in all--a +majority of the people believe in stimulants. Why not work with +the great and enlightened majority? Why rush to the extreme for +the purpose not only of making yourself useless but hurtful? + +No man in the world is more opposed to intemperance than I am. No +man in the world feels more keenly the evils and the agony produced +by the crime of drunkenness. And yet I would not be willing to +sacrifice liberty, individuality, and the glory and greatness of +individual freedom, to do away with all the evils of intemperance. +In other words, I believe that slavery, oppression and suppression +would crowd humanity into a thousand deformities, the result of +which would be a thousand times more disastrous to the well-being +of man. I do not believe in the slave virtues, in the monotony of +tyranny, in the respectability produced by force. I admire the +men who have grown in the atmosphere of liberty, who have the pose +of independence, the virtues of strength, of heroism, and in whose +hearts is the magnanimity, the tenderness, and the courage born of +victory. + +--_New York World_, October 21, 1888. + + +ROBERT ELSMERE. + +Why do people read a book like "Robert Elsmere," and why do they +take any interest in it? Simply because they are not satisfied +with the religion of our day. The civilized world has outgrown +the greater part of the Christian creed. Civilized people have +lost their belief in the reforming power of punishment. They find +that whips and imprisonment have but little influence for good. +The truth has dawned upon their minds that eternal punishment is +infinite cruelty--that it can serve no good purpose and that the +eternity of hell makes heaven impossible. That there can be in +this universe no perfectly happy place while there is a perfectly +miserable place--that no infinite being can be good who knowingly +and, as one may say, willfully created myriads of human beings, +knowing that they would be eternally miserable. In other words, +the civilized man is greater, tenderer, nobler, nearer just than +the old idea of God. The ideal of a few thousand years ago is far +below the real of to-day. No good man now would do what Jehovah +is said to have done four thousand years ago, and no civilized +human being would now do what, according to the Christian religion, +Christ threatens to do at the day of judgment. + +_Question_. Has the Christian religion changed in theory of late +years, Colonel Ingersoll? + +_Answer_. A few years ago the Deists denied the inspiration of +the Bible on account of its cruelty. At the same time they worshiped +what they were pleased to call the God of Nature. Now we are +convinced that Nature is as cruel as the Bible; so that, if the +God of Nature did not write the Bible, this God at least has caused +earthquakes and pestilence and famine, and this God has allowed +millions of his children to destroy one another. So that now we +have arrived at the question--not as to whether the Bible is inspired +and not as to whether Jehovah is the real God, but whether there +is a God or not. The intelligence of Christendom to-day does not +believe in an inspired art or an inspired literature. If there be +an infinite God, inspiration in some particular regard would be a +patch--it would be the puttying of a crack, the hiding of a defect +--in other words, it would show that the general plan was defective. + +_Question_. Do you consider any religion adequate? + +_Answer_. A good man, living in England, drawing a certain salary +for reading certain prayers on stated occasions, for making a few +remarks on the subject of religion, putting on clothes of a certain +cut, wearing a gown with certain frills and flounces starched in +an orthodox manner, and then looking about him at the suffering +and agony of the world, would not feel satisfied that he was doing +anything of value for the human race. In the first place, he would +deplore his own weakness, his own poverty, his inability to help +his fellow-men. He would long every moment for wealth, that he +might feed the hungry and clothe the naked--for knowledge, for +miraculous power, that he might heal the sick and the lame and that +he might give to the deformed the beauty of proportion. He would +begin to wonder how a being of infinite goodness and infinite power +could allow his children to die, to suffer, to be deformed by +necessity, by poverty, to be tempted beyond resistance; how he +could allow the few to live in luxury, and the many in poverty and +want, and the more he wondered the more useless and ironical would +seem to himself his sermons and his prayers. Such a man is driven +to the conclusion that religion accomplishes but little--that it +creates as much want as it alleviates, and that it burdens the +world with parasites. Such a man would be forced to think of the +millions wasted in superstition. In other words, the inadequacy, +the uselessness of religion would be forced upon his mind. He +would ask himself the question: "Is it possible that this is a +divine institution? Is this all that man can do with the assistance +of God? Is this the best?" + +_Question_. That is a perfectly reasonable question, is it not, +Colonel Ingersoll? + +_Answer_. The moment a man reaches the point where he asks himself +this question he has ceased to be an orthodox Christian. It will +not do to say that in some other world justice will be done. If +God allows injustice to triumph here, why not there? + +Robert Elsmere stands in the dawn of philosophy. There is hardly +light enough for him to see clearly; but there is so much light +that the stars in the night of superstition are obscured. + +_Question_. You do not deny that a religious belief is a comfort? + +_Answer_. There is one thing that it is impossible for me to +comprehend. Why should any one, when convinced that Christianity +is a superstition, have or feel a sense of loss? Certainly a man +acquainted with England, with London, having at the same time +something like a heart, must feel overwhelmed by the failure of +what is known as Christianity. Hundreds of thousands exist there +without decent food, dwelling in tenements, clothed with rags, +familiar with every form of vulgar vice, where the honest poor eat +the crust that the vicious throw away. When this man of intelligence, +of heart, visits the courts; when he finds human liberty a thing +treated as of no value, and when he hears the judge sentencing +girls and boys to the penitentiary--knowing that a stain is being +put upon them that all the tears of all the coming years can never +wash away--knowing, too, and feeling that this is done without the +slightest regret, without the slightest sympathy, as a mere matter +of form, and that the judge puts this brand of infamy upon the +forehead of the convict just as cheerfully as a Mexican brands his +cattle; and when this man of intelligence and heart knows that +these poor people are simply the victims of society, the unfortunates +who stumble and over whose bodies rolls the Juggernaut--he knows +that there is, or at least appears to be, no power above or below +working for righteousness--that from the heavens is stretched no +protecting hand. And when a man of intelligence and heart in +England visits the workhouse, the last resting place of honest +labor; when he thinks that the young man, without any great +intelligence, but with a good constitution, starts in the morning +of his life for the workhouse, and that it is impossible for the +laboring man, one who simply has his muscle, to save anything; that +health is not able to lay anything by for the days of disease--when +the man of intelligence and heart sees all this, he is compelled +to say that the civilization of to-day, the religion of to-day, +the charity of to-day--no matter how much of good there may be +behind them or in them, are failures. + +A few years ago people were satisfied when the minister said: "All +this will be made even in another world; a crust-eater here will +sit at the head of the banquet there, and the king here will beg +for the crumbs that fall from the table there." When this was +said, the poor man hoped and the king laughed. A few years ago +the church said to the slave: "You will be free in another world, +and your freedom will be made glorious by the perpetual spectacle +of your master in hell." But the people--that is, many of the +people--are no longer deceived by what once were considered fine +phrases. They have suffered so much that they no longer wish to +see others suffer and no longer think of the suffering of others +as a source of joy to themselves. The poor see that the eternal +starvation of kings and queens in another world will be no compensation +for what they have suffered there. The old religions appear vulgar +and the ideas of rewards and punishments are only such as would +satisfy a cannibal chief or one of his favorites. + +_Question_. Do you think the Christian religion has made the world +better? + +_Answer_. For many centuries there has been preached and taught +in an almost infinite number of ways a supernatural religion. +During all this time the world has been in the care of the Infinite, +and yet every imaginable vice has flourished, every imaginable pang +has been suffered, and every injustice has been done. During all +these years the priests have enslaved the minds, and the kings the +bodies, of men. The priests did what they did in the name of God, +and the kings appeal to the same source of authority. Man suffered +as long as he could. Revolution, reformation, was simply a re- +action, a cry from the poor wretch that was between the upper and +the nether millstone. The liberty of man has increased just in +the proportion that the authority of the gods has decreased. In +other words, the wants of man, instead of the wishes of God, have +inaugurated what we call progress, and there is this difference: +Theology is based upon the narrowest and intensest form of selfishness. +Of course, the theologian knows, the Christian knows, that he can +do nothing for God; consequently all that he does must be and is +for himself, his object being to win the approbation of this God, +to the end that he may become a favorite. On the other side, men +touched not only by their own misfortunes, but by the misfortunes +of others, are moved not simply by selfishness, but by a splendid +sympathy with their fellow-men. + +_Question_. Christianity certainly fosters charity? + +_Answer_. Nothing is more cruel than orthodox theology, nothing +more heartless than a charitable institution. For instance, in +England, think for a moment of the manner in which charities are +distributed, the way in which the crust is flung at Lazarus. If +that parable could be now retold, the dogs would bite him. The +same is true in this country. The institution has nothing but +contempt for the one it relieves. The people in charge regard the +pauper as one who has wrecked himself. They feel very much as a +man would feel rescuing from the water some hare-brained wretch +who had endeavored to swim the rapids of Niagara--the moment they +reach him they begin to upbraid him for being such a fool. This +course makes charity a hypocrite, with every pauper for its enemy. + +Mrs. Ward compelled Robert Elsmere to perceive, in some slight +degree, the failure of Christianity to do away with vice and +suffering, with poverty and crime. We know that the rich care but +little for the poor. No matter how religious the rich may be, the +sufferings of their fellows have but little effect upon them. We +are also beginning to see that what is called charity will never +redeem this world. + +The poor man willing to work, eager to maintain his independence, +knows that there is something higher than charity--that is to say, +justice. He finds that many years before he was born his country +was divided out between certain successful robbers, flatterers, +cringers and crawlers, and that in consequence of such division +not only he himself, but a large majority of his fellow-men are +tenants, renters, occupying the surface of the earth only at the +pleasure of others. He finds, too, that these people who have done +nothing and who do nothing, have everything, and that those who do +everything have but little. He finds that idleness has the money +and that the toilers are compelled to bow to the idlers. He finds +also that the young men of genius are bribed by social distinctions +--unconsciously it may be--but still bribed in a thousand ways. +He finds that the church is a kind of waste-basket into which are +thrown the younger sons of titled idleness. + +_Question_. Do you consider that society in general has been made +better by religious influences? + +_Answer_. Society is corrupted because the laurels, the titles, +are in the keeping and within the gift of the corrupters. Christianity +is not an enemy of this system--it is in harmony with it. Christianity +reveals to us a universe presided over by an infinite autocrat--a +universe without republicanism, without democracy--a universe where +all power comes from one and the same source, and where everyone +using authority is accountable, not to the people, but to this +supposed source of authority. Kings reign by divine right. Priests +are ordained in a divinely appointed way--they do not get their +office from man. Man is their servant, not their master. + +In the story of Robert Elsmere all there is of Christianity is left +except the miraculous. Theism remains, and the idea of a protecting +Providence is left, together with a belief in the immeasurable +superiority of Jesus Christ. That is to say, the miracles are +discarded for lack of evidence, and only for lack of evidence; not +on the ground that they are impossible, not on the ground that they +impeach and deny the integrity of cause and effect, not on the +ground that they contradict the self-evident proposition that an +effect must have an efficient cause, but like the Scotch verdict, +"not proven." It is an effort to save and keep in repair the +dungeons of the Inquisition for the sake of the beauty of the vines +that have overrun them. Many people imagine that falsehoods may +become respectable on account of age, that a certain reverence goes +with antiquity, and that if a mistake is covered with the moss of +sentiment it is altogether more credible than a parvenu fact. They +endeavor to introduce the idea of aristocracy into the world of +thought, believing, and honestly believing, that a falsehood long +believed is far superior to a truth that is generally denied. + +_Question_. If Robert Elsmere's views were commonly adopted what +would be the effect? + +_Answer_. The new religion of Elsmere is, after all, only a system +of outdoor relief, an effort to get successful piracy to give up +a larger per cent. for the relief of its victims. The abolition +of the system is not dreamed of. A civilized minority could not +by any possibility be happy while a majority of the world were +miserable. A civilized majority could not be happy while a minority +were miserable. As a matter of fact, a civilized world could not +be happy while one man was really miserable. At the foundation of +civilization is justice--that is to say, the giving of an equal +opportunity to all the children of men. Secondly, there can be no +civilization in the highest sense until sympathy becomes universal. +We must have a new definition for success. We must have new ideals. +The man who succeeds in amassing wealth, who gathers money for +himself, is not a success. It is an exceedingly low ambition to +be rich to excite the envy of others, or for the sake of the vulgar +power it gives to triumph over others. Such men are failures. So +the man who wins fame, position, power, and wins these for the sake +of himself, and wields this power not for the elevation of his +fellow-men, but simply to control, is a miserable failure. He may +dispense thousands of millions in charity, and his charity may be +prompted by the meanest part of his nature--using it simply as a +bait to catch more fish and to prevent the rising tide of indignation +that might overwhelm him. Men who steal millions and then give a +small percentage to the Lord to gain the praise of the clergy and +to bring the salvation of their souls within the possibilities of +imagination, are all failures. + +Robert Elsmere gains our affection and our applause to the extent +that he gives up what are known as orthodox views, and his wife +Catherine retains our respect in the proportion that she lives the +doctrine that Elsmere preaches. By doing what she believes to be +right, she gains our forgiveness for her creed. One is astonished +that she can be as good as she is, believing as she does. The +utmost stretch of our intellectual charity is to allow the old wine +to be put in a new bottle, and yet she regrets the absence of the +old bottle--she really believes that the bottle is the important +thing--that the wine is but a secondary consideration. She misses +the label, and not having perfect confidence in her own taste, she +does not feel quite sure that the wine is genuine. + +_Question_. What, on the whole, is your judgment of the book? + +_Answer_. I think the book conservative. It is an effort to save +something--a few shreds and patches and ravelings--from the wreck. +Theism is difficult to maintain. Why should we expect an infinite +Being to do better in another world than he has done and is doing +in this? If he allows the innocent to suffer here, why not there? +If he allows rascality to succeed in this world, why not in the +next? To believe in God and to deny his personality is an exceedingly +vague foundation for a consolation. If you insist on his personality +and power, then it is impossible to account for what happens. Why +should an infinite God allow some of his children to enslave others? +Why should he allow a child of his to burn another child of his, +under the impression that such a sacrifice was pleasing to him? + +Unitarianism lacks the motive power. Orthodox people who insist +that nearly everybody is going to hell, and that it is their duty +to do what little they can to save their souls, have what you might +call a spur to action. We can imagine a philanthropic man engaged +in the business of throwing ropes to persons about to go over the +falls of Niagara, but we can hardly think of his carrying on the +business after being convinced that there are no falls, or that +people go over them in perfect safety. In this country the question +has come up whether all the heathen are bound to be damned unless +they believe in the gospel. Many admit that the heathen will be +saved if they are good people, and that they will not be damned +for not believing something that they never heard. The really +orthodox people--that is to say, the missionaries--instantly see +that this doctrine destroys their business. They take the ground +that there is but one way to be saved--you must believe on the Lord +Jesus Christ--and they are willing to admit, and cheerfully to +admit, that the heathen for many generations have gone in an unbroken +column down to eternal wrath. And they not only admit this, but +insist upon it, to the end that subscriptions may not cease. With +them salary and salvation are convertible terms. + +The tone of this book is not of the highest. Too much stress is +laid upon social advantages--too much respect for fashionable folly +and for ancient absurdity. It is hard for me to appreciate the +feelings of one who thinks it difficult to give up the consolations +of the gospel. What are the consolations of the Church of England? +It is a religion imposed upon the people by authority. It is the +gospel at the mouth of a cannon, at the point of a bayonet, enforced +by all authority, from the beadle to the Queen. It is a parasite +living upon tithes--these tithes being collected by the army and +navy. It produces nothing--is simply a beggar--or rather an +aggregation of beggars. It teaches nothing of importance. It +discovers nothing. It is under obligation not to investigate. It +has agreed to remain stationary not only, but to resist all +innovation. According to the creed of this church, a very large +proportion of the human race is destined to suffer eternal pain. +This does not interfere with the quiet, with the serenity and repose +of the average clergyman. They put on their gowns, they read the +service, they repeat the creed and feel that their duty has been +done. How any one can feel that he is giving up something of value +when he finds that the Episcopal creed is untrue is beyond my +imagination. I should think that every good man and woman would +overflow with joy, that every heart would burst into countless +blossoms the moment the falsity of the Episcopal creed was +established. + +Christianity is the most heartless of all religions--the most +unforgiving, the most revengeful. According to the Episcopalian +belief, God becomes the eternal prosecutor of his own children. +I know of no creed believed by any tribe, not excepting the tribes +where cannibalism is practiced, that is more heartless, more inhuman +than this. To find that the creed is false is like being roused +from a frightful dream, in which hundreds of serpents are coiled +about you, in which their eyes, gleaming with hatred, are fixed on +you, and finding the world bathed in sunshine and the songs of +birds in your ears and those you love about you. + +--_New York World_, November 18, 1888. + + +WORKING GIRLS. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of the work undertaken by the +_World_ in behalf of the city slave girl? + +_Answer_. I know of nothing better for a great journal to do. +The average girl is so helpless, and the greed of the employer is +such, that unless some newspaper or some person of great influence +comes to her assistance, she is liable not simply to be imposed +upon, but to be made a slave. Girls, as a rule, are so anxious to +please, so willing to work, that they bear almost every hardship +without complaint. Nothing is more terrible than to see the rich +living on the work of the poor. One can hardly imagine the utter +heartlessness of a man who stands between the wholesale manufacturer +and the wretched women who make their living--or rather retard +their death--by the needle. How a human being can consent to live +on this profit, stolen from poverty, is beyond my imagination. +These men, when known, will be regarded as hyenas and jackals. +They are like the wild beasts which follow herds of cattle for the +purpose of devouring those that are injured or those that have +fallen by the wayside from weakness. + +_Question_. What effect has unlimited immigration on the wages of +women? + +_Answer_. If our country were overpopulated, the effect of +immigration would be to lessen wages, for the reason that the +working people of Europe are used to lower wages, and have been in +the habit of practicing an economy unknown to us. But this country +is not overpopulated. There is plenty of room for several hundred +millions more. Wages, however, are too low in the United States. +The general tendency is to leave the question of labor to what is +called the law of supply and demand. My hope is that in time we +shall become civilized enough to know that there is a higher law, +or rather a higher meaning in the law of supply and demand, than +is now perceived. Year after year what are called the necessaries +of life increase. Many things now regarded as necessaries were +formerly looked upon as luxuries. So, as man becomes civilized, he +increases what may be called the necessities of his life. When +perfectly civilized, one of the necessities of his life will be +that the lives of others shall be of some value to them. A good +man is not happy so long as he knows that other good men and women +suffer for raiment and for food, and have no roof but the sky, no +home but the highway. Consequently what is called the law of supply +and demand will then have a much larger meaning. + +In nature everything lives upon something else. Life feeds upon +life. Something is lying in wait for something else, and even the +victim is weaving a web or crouching for some other victim, and +the other victim is in the same business--watching for something +else. The same is true in the human world--people are living on +each other; the cunning obtain the property of the simple; wealth +picks the pockets of poverty; success is a highwayman leaping from +the hedge. The rich combine, the poor are unorganized, without +the means to act in concert, and for that reason become the prey +of combinations and trusts. The great questions are: Will man +ever be sufficiently civilized to be honest? Will the time ever +come when it can truthfully be said that right is might? The lives +of millions of people are not worth living, because of their +ignorance and poverty, and the lives of millions of others are not +worth living, on account of their wealth and selfishness. The +palace without justice, without charity, is as terrible as the +hovel without food. + +_Question_. What effect has the woman's suffrage movement had on +the breadwinners of the country? + +_Answer_. I think the women who have been engaged in the struggle +for equal rights have done good for women in the direction of +obtaining equal wages for equal work. There has also been for many +years a tendency among women in our country to become independent +--a desire to make their own living--to win their own bread. So +many husbands are utterly useless, or worse, that many women hardly +feel justified in depending entirely on a husband for the future. +They feel somewhat safer to know how to do something and earn a +little money themselves. If men were what they ought to be, few +women would be allowed to labor--that is to say, to toil. It should +be the ambition of every healthy and intelligent man to take care +of, to support, to make happy, some woman. As long as women bear +the burdens of the world, the human race can never attain anything +like a splendid civilization. There will be no great generation +of men until there has been a great generation of women. For my +part, I am glad to hear this question discussed--glad to know that +thousands of women take some interest in the fortunes and in the +misfortunes of their sisters. + +The question of wages for women is a thousand times more important +than sending missionaries to China or to India. There is plenty +for missionaries to do here. And by missionaries I do not mean +gentlemen and ladies who distribute tracts or quote Scripture to +people out of work. If we are to better the condition of men and +women we must change their surroundings. The tenement house breeds +a moral pestilence. There can be in these houses no home, no +fireside, no family, for the reason that there is no privacy, no +walls between them and the rest of the world. There is no sacredness, +no feeling, "this is ours." + +_Question_. Might not the rich do much? + +_Answer_. It would be hard to overestimate the good that might be +done by the millionaires if they would turn their attention to +sending thousands and thousands into the country or to building +them homes miles from the city, where they could have something +like privacy, where the family relations could be kept with some +sacredness. Think of the "homes" in which thousands and thousands +of young girls are reared in our large cities. Think of what they +see and what they hear; of what they come in contact with. How is +it possible for the virtues to grow in the damp and darkened +basements? Can we expect that love and chastity and all that is +sweet and gentle will be produced in these surroundings, in cellars +and garrets, in poverty and dirt? The surroundings must be changed. + +_Question_. Are the fathers and brothers blameless who allow young +girls to make coats, cloaks and vests in an atmosphere poisoned by +the ignorant and low-bred? + +_Answer_. The same causes now brutalizing girls brutalize their +fathers and brothers, and the same causes brutalize the ignorant +and low-lived that poison the air in which these girls are made to +work. It is hard to pick out one man and say that he is to blame, +or one woman and say that the fault is hers. We must go back of +all this. In my opinion, society raises its own failures, its own +criminals, its own wretches of every sort and kind. Great pains +are taken to raise these crops. The seeds, it may be, were sown +thousands of years ago, but they were sown, and the present is the +necessary child of all the past. If the future is to differ from +the present, the seeds must now be sown. It is not simply a question +of charity, or a question of good nature, or a question of what we +call justice--it is a question of intelligence. In the first place, +I suppose that it is the duty of every human being to support +himself--first, that he may not become a burden upon others, and +second, that he may help others. I think all people should be +taught never, under any circumstances, if by any possibility they +can avoid it, to become a burden. Every one should be taught the +nobility of labor, the heroism and splendor of honest effort. As +long as it is considered disgraceful to labor, or aristocratic not +to labor, the world will be filled with idleness and crime, and +with every possible moral deformity. + +_Question_. Has the public school system anything to do with the +army of pupils who, after six years of study, willingly accept the +injustice and hardship imposed by capital? + +_Answer_. The great trouble with the public school is that many +things are taught that are of no immediate use. I believe in manual +training schools. I believe in the kindergarten system. Every +person ought to be taught how to do something--ought to be taught +the use of their hands. They should endeavor to put in palpable +form the ideas that they gain. Such an education gives them a +confidence in themselves, a confidence in the future--gives them +a spirit and feeling of independence that they do not now have. +Men go through college studying for many years, and when graduated +have not the slightest conception of how to make a living in any +department of human effort. Thousands of them are to-day doing +manual labor and doing it very poorly, whereas, if they had been +taught the use of tools, the use of their hands, they would derive +a certain pleasure from their work. It is splendid to do anything +well. One can be just as poetic working with iron and wood as +working with words and colors. + +_Question_. What ought to be done, or what is to be the end? + +_Answer_. The great thing is for the people to know the facts. +There are thousands and millions of splendid and sympathetic people +who would willingly help, if they only knew; but they go through +the world in such a way that they know but little of it. They go +to their place of business; they stay in their offices for a few +hours; they go home; they spend the evening there or at a club; +they come in contact with the well-to-do, with the successful, with +the satisfied, and they know nothing of the thousands and millions +on every side. They have not the least idea how the world lives, +how it works, how it suffers. They read, of course, now and then, +some paragraph in which the misfortune of some wretch is set forth, +but the wretch is a kind of steel engraving, an unreal shadow, a +something utterly unlike themselves. The real facts should be +brought home, the sympathies of men awakened, and awakened to such +a degree that they will go and see how these people live, see how +they work, see how they suffer. + +_Question_. Does exposure do any good? + +_Answer_. I hope that _The World_ will keep on. I hope that it +will express every horror that it can, connected with the robbery +of poor and helpless girls, and I hope that it will publish the +names of all the robbers it can find, and the wretches who oppress +the poor and who live upon the misfortunes of women. + +The crosses of this world are mostly born by wives, by mothers and +by daughters. Their brows are pierced by thorns. They shed the +bitterest tears. They live and suffer and die for others. It is +almost enough to make one insane to think of what woman, in the +years of savagery and civilization, has suffered. Think of the +anxiety and agony of motherhood. Maternity is the most pathetic +fact in the universe. Think how helpless girls are. Think of the +thorns in the paths they walk--of the trials, the temptations, the +want, the misfortune, the dangers and anxieties that fill their +days and nights. Every true man will sympathize with woman, and +will do all in his power to lighten her burdens and increase the +sunshine of her life. + +_Question_. Is there any remedy? + +_Answer_. I have always wondered that the great corporations have +made no provisions for their old and worn out employees. It seems +to me that not only great railway companies, but great manufacturing +corporations, ought to provide for their workmen. Many of them +are worn out, unable longer to work, and they are thrown aside like +old clothes. They find their way to the poorhouses or die in +tenements by the roadside. This seems almost infinitely heartless. +Men of great wealth, engaged in manufacturing, instead of giving +five hundred thousand dollars for a library, or a million dollars +for a college, ought to put this money aside, invest it in bonds +of the Government, and the interest ought to be used in taking care +of the old, of the helpless, of those who meet with accidents in +their work. Under our laws, if an employee is caught in a wheel +or in a band, and his arm or leg is torn off, he is left to the +charity of the community, whereas the profits of the business ought +to support him in his old age. If employees had this feeling--that +they were not simply working for that day, not simply working while +they have health and strength, but laying aside a little sunshine +for the winter of age--if they only felt that they, by their labor, +were creating a fireside in front of which their age and helplessness +could sit, the feeling between employed and employers would be a +thousand times better. On the great railways very few people know +the number of the injured, of those who lose their hands or feet, +of those who contract diseases riding on the tops of freight trains +in snow and sleet and storm; and yet, when these men become old +and helpless through accident, they are left to shift for themselves. +The company is immortal, but the employees become helpless. Now, +it seems to me that a certain per cent. should be laid aside, so +that every brakeman and conductor could feel that he was providing +for himself, as well as for his fellow-workmen, so that when the +dark days came there would be a little light. + +The men of wealth, the men who control these great corporations-- +these great mills--give millions away in ostentatious charity. +They send missionaries to foreign lands. They endow schools and +universities and allow the men who earned the surplus to die in +want. I believe in no charity that is founded on robbery. I have +no admiration for generous highwaymen or extravagant pirates. At +the foundation of charity should be justice. Let these men whom +others have made wealthy give something to their workmen--something +to those who created their fortunes. This would be one step in +the right direction. Do not let it be regarded as charity--let it +be regarded as justice. + +--_New York World_, December 2, 1888. + + +PROTECTION FOR AMERICAN ACTORS. + +_Question_. It is reported that you have been retained as counsel +for the Actors' Order of Friendship--the Edwin Forrest Lodge of +New York, and the Shakespeare Lodge of Philadelphia--for the purpose +of securing the necessary legislation to protect American actors-- +is that so? + +_Answer_. Yes, I have been retained for that purpose, and the +object is simply that American actors may be put upon an equal +footing with Americans engaged in other employments. There is a +law now which prevents contractors going abroad and employing +mechanics or skilled workmen, and bringing them to this country to +take the places of our citizens. + +No one objects to the English, German and French mechanics coming +with their wives and children to this country and making their +homes here. Our ports are open, and have been since the foundation +of this Government. Wages are somewhat higher in this country than +in any other, and the man who really settles here, who becomes, or +intends to become an American citizen, will demand American wages. +But if a manufacturer goes to Europe, he can make a contract there +and bring hundreds and thousands of mechanics to this country who +will work for less wages than the American, and a law was passed +to prevent the American manufacturer, who was protected by a tariff, +from burning the laborer's candle at both ends. That is to say, +we do not wish to give him the American price, by means of a tariff, +and then allow him to go to Europe and import his labor at the +European price. + +In the law, actors were excepted, and we now find the managers are +bringing entire companies from the old county, making contracts +with them there, and getting them at much lower prices than they +would have had to pay for American actors. + +No one objects to a foreign actor coming here for employment, but +we do not want an American manager to go there, and employ him to +act here. No one objects to the importation of a star. We wish +to see and hear the best actors in the world. But the rest of the +company--the support--should be engaged in the United States, if +the star speaks English. + +I see that it is contended over in England, that English actors +are monopolizing the American stage because they speak English, +while the average American actor does not. The real reason is that +the English actor works for less money--he is the cheaper article. +Certainly no one will accuse the average English actor of speaking +English. The hemming and hawing, the aristocratic stutter, the +dropping of h's and picking them up at the wrong time, have never +been popular in the United States, except by way of caricature. +Nothing is more absurd than to take the ground that the English +actors are superior to the American. I know of no English actor +who can for a moment be compared with Joseph Jefferson, or with +Edwin Booth, or with Lawrence Barrett, or with Denman Thompson, +and I could easily name others. + +If English actors are so much better than American, how is it that +an American star is supported by the English? Mary Anderson is +certainly an American actress, and she is supported by English +actors. Is it possible that the superior support the inferior? +I do not believe that England has her equal as an actress. Her +Hermione is wonderful, and the appeal to Apollo sublime. In Perdita +she "takes the winds of March with beauty." Where is an actress +on the English stage the superior of Julia Marlowe in genius, in +originality, in naturalness? + +Is there any better Mrs. Malaprop than Mrs. Drew, and better Sir +Anthony than John Gilbert? No one denies that the English actors +and actresses are great. No one will deny that the plays of +Shakespeare are the greatest that have been produced, and no one +wishes in any way to belittle the genius of the English people. + +In this country the average person speaks fairly good English, and +you will find substantially the same English spoken in most of the +country; whereas in England there is a different dialect in almost +every county, and most of the English people speak the language as +if was not their native tongue. I think it will be admitted that +the English write a good deal better than they speak, and that +their pronunciation is not altogether perfect. + +These things, however, are not worth speaking of. There is no +absolute standard. They speak in the way that is natural to them, +and we in the way that is natural to us. This difference furnishes +no foundation for a claim of general superiority. The English +actors are not brought here on account of their excellence, but on +account of their cheapness. It requires no great ability to play +the minor parts, or the leading roles in some plays, for that +matter. And yet acting is a business, a profession, a means of +getting bread. + +We protect our mechanics and makers of locomotives and of all other +articles. Why should we not protect, by the same means, the actor? +You may say that we can get along without actors. So we can get +along without painters, without sculptors and without poets. But +a nation that gets along without these people of genius amounts to +but little. We can do without music, without players and without +composers; but when we take art and poetry and music and the theatre +out of the world, it becomes an exceedingly dull place. + +Actors are protected and cared for in proportion that people are +civilized. If the people are intelligent, educated, and have +imaginations, they enjoy the world of the stage, the creations of +poets, and they are thrilled by great music, and, as a consequence, +respect the dramatist, the actor and the musician. + +_Question_. It is claimed that an amendment to the law, such as +is desired, will interfere with the growth of art? + +_Answer_. No one is endeavoring to keep stars from this country. +If they have American support, and the stars really know anything, +the American actors will get the benefit. If they bring their +support with them, the American actor is not particularly benefitted, +and the star, when the season is over, takes his art and his money +with him. + +Managers who insist on employing foreign support are not sacrificing +anything for art. Their object is to make money. They care nothing +for the American actor--nothing for the American drama. They look +for the receipts. It is the sheerest cant to pretend that they +are endeavoring to protect art. + +On the 26th of February, 1885, a law was passed making it unlawful +"for any person, company, partnership or corporation, in any manner +whatsoever, to prepay the transportation, or in any way assist or +encourage the importation or emigration of any alien or aliens into +the United States, under contract or agreement, parol or special, +previous to the importation or emigration of such aliens to perform +labor or services of any kind the United States." + +By this act it was provided that its provisions should not apply +to professional actors, artists, lecturers or singers, in regard +to persons employed strictly as personal or domestic servants. +The object now in view is so to amend the law that its provision +shall apply to all actors except stars. + +_Question_. In this connection there has been so much said about +the art of acting--what is your idea as to that art? + +_Answer_. Above all things in acting, there must be proportion. +There are no miracles in art or nature. All that is done--every +inflection and gesture--must be in perfect harmony with the +circumstances. Sensationalism is based on deformity, and bears +the same relation to proportion that caricature does to likeness. + +The stream that flows even with its banks, making the meadows green, +delights us ever; the one that overflows surprises for a moment. +But we do not want a succession of floods. + +In acting there must be natural growth, not sudden climax. The +atmosphere of the situation, the relation sustained to others, +should produce the emotions. Nothing should be strained. Beneath +domes there should be buildings, and buildings should have foundations. +There must be growth. There should be the bud, the leaf, the +flower, in natural sequence. There must be no leap from naked +branches to the perfect fruit. + +Most actors depend on climax--they save themselves for the supreme +explosion. The scene opens with a slow match and ends when the +spark reaches the dynamite. So, most authors fill the first act +with contradictions and the last with explanations. Plots and +counter-plots, violence and vehemence, perfect saints and perfect +villains--that is to say, monsters, impelled by improbable motives, +meet upon the stage, where they are pushed and pulled for the sake +of the situation, and where everything is so managed that the fire +reaches the powder and the explosion is the climax. + +There is neither time, nor climate, nor soil, in which the emotions +and intentions may grow. No land is plowed, no seed is sowed, no +rain falls, no light glows--the events are all orphans. + +No one would enjoy a sudden sunset--we want the clouds of gold that +float in the azure sea. No one would enjoy a sudden sunrise--we +are in love with the morning star, with the dawn that modestly +heralds the day and draws aside, with timid hands, the curtains of +the night. In other words, we want sequence, proportion, logic, +beauty. + +There are several actors in this country who are in perfect accord +with nature--who appear to make no effort--whose acting seems to +give them joy and rest. We do well what we do easily. It is a +great mistake to exhaust yourself, instead of the subject. All +great actors "fill the stage" because they hold the situation. +You see them and nothing else. + +_Question_. Speaking of American actors, Colonel, I believe you +are greatly interested in the playing of Miss Marlowe, and have +given your opinion of her as Parthenia; what do you think of her +Julia and Viola? + +_Answer_. A little while ago I saw Miss Marlowe as Julia, in "The +Hunchback." We must remember the limitations of the play. Nothing +can excel the simplicity, the joyous content of the first scene. +Nothing could be more natural than the excitement produced by the +idea of leaving what you feel to be simple and yet good, for what +you think is magnificent, brilliant and intoxicating. It is only +in youth that we are willing to make this exchange. One does not +see so clearly in the morning of life when the sun shines in his +eyes. In the afternoon, when the sun is behind him, he sees better +--he is no longer dazzled. In old age we are not only willing, +but anxious, to exchange wealth and fame and glory and magnificence, +for simplicity. All the palaces are nothing compared with our +little cabin, and all the flowers of the world are naught to the +wild rose that climbs and blossoms by the lowly window of content. + +Happiness dwells in the valleys with the shadows. + +The moment Julia is brought in contact with wealth, she longs for +the simple--for the true love of one true man. Wealth and station +are mockeries. These feelings, these emotions, Miss Marlowe rendered +not only with look and voice and gesture, but with every pose of +her body; and when assured that her nuptials with the Earl could +be avoided, the only question in her mind was as to the absolute +preservation of her honor--not simply in fact, but in appearance, +so that even hatred could not see a speck upon the shining shield +of her perfect truth. In this scene she was perfect--everything +was forgotten except the desire to be absolutely true. + +So in the scene with Master Walter, when he upbraids her for +forgetting that she is about to meet her father, when excusing her +forgetfulness on the ground that he has been to her a father. +Nothing could exceed the delicacy and tenderness of this passage. +Every attitude expressed love, gentleness, and a devotion even unto +death. One felt that there could be no love left for the father +she expected to meet--Master Walter had it all. + +A greater Julia was never on the stage--one in whom so much passion +mingled with so much purity. Miss Marlowe never "o'ersteps the +modesty of nature." She maintains proportion. The river of her +art flows even with the banks. + +In Viola, we must remember the character--a girl just rescued from +the sea--disguised as a boy--employed by the Duke, whom she instantly +loves--sent as his messenger to woo another for him--Olivia enamored +of the messenger--forced to a duel--mistaken for her brother by +the Captain, and her brother taken for herself by Olivia--and yet, +in the midst of these complications and disguises, she remains a +pure and perfect girl--these circumstances having no more real +effect upon her passionate and subtle self than clouds on stars. + +When Malvolio follows and returns the ring the whole truth flashes +upon her. She is in love with Orsino--this she knows. Olivia, +she believes, is in love with her. The edge of the situation, the +dawn of this entanglement, excites her mirth. In this scene she +becomes charming--an impersonation of Spring. Her laughter is as +natural and musical as the song of a brook. So, in the scene with +Olivia in which she cries, "Make me a willow cabin at your gate!" +she is the embodiment of grace, and her voice is as musical as the +words, and as rich in tone as they are in thought. + +In the duel with Sir Andrew she shows the difference between the +delicacy of woman and the cowardice of man. She does the little +that she can, not for her own sake, but for the sake of her disguise +--she feels that she owes something to her clothes. + +But I have said enough about this actress to give you an idea of +one who is destined to stand first in her profession. + +We will now come back to the real question. I am in favor of +protecting the American actor. I regard the theatre as the civilizer +of man. All the arts united upon the stage, and the genius of the +race has been lavished on this mimic world. + +--_New York Star_, December 23, 1888. + + +LIBERALS AND LIBERALISM. + +_Question_. What do you think of the prospects of Liberalism in +this country? + +_Answer_. The prospects of Liberalism are precisely the same as +the prospects of civilization--that is to say, of progress. As +the people become educated, they become liberal. Bigotry is the +provincialism of the mind. Men are bigoted who are not acquainted +with the thoughts of others. They have been taught one thing, and +have been made to believe that their little mental horizon is the +circumference of all knowledge. The bigot lives in an ignorant +village, surrounded by ignorant neighbors. This is the honest +bigot. The dishonest bigot may know better, but he remains a bigot +because his salary depends upon it. A bigot is like a country that +has had no commerce with any other. He imagines that in his little +head there is everything of value. When a man becomes an intellectual +explorer, an intellectual traveler, he begins to widen, to grow +liberal. He finds that the ideas of others are as good as and often +better than his own. The habits and customs of other people throw +light on his own, and by this light he is enabled to discover at +least some of his own mistakes. Now the world has become acquainted. +A few years ago, a man knew something of the doctrines of his own +church. Now he knows the creeds of others, and not only so, but +he has examined to some extent the religions of other nations. He +finds in other creeds all the excellencies that are in his own, +and most of the mistakes. In this way he learns that all creeds +have been produced by men, and that their differences have been +accounted for by race, climate, heredity--that is to say, by a +difference in circumstances. So we now know that the cause of +Liberalism is the cause of civilization. Unless the race is to be +a failure, the cause of Liberalism must succeed. Consequently, I +have the same faith in that cause that I have in the human race. + +_Question_. Where are the most Liberals, and in what section of +the country is the best work for Liberalism being done? + +_Answer_. The most Liberals are in the most intelligent section +of the United States. Where people think the most, there you will +find the most Liberals; where people think the least, you will find +the most bigots. Bigotry is produced by feeling--Liberalism by +thinking--that is to say, the one is a prejudice, the other a +principle. Every geologist, every astronomer, every scientist, is +doing a noble work for Liberalism. Every man who finds a fact, +and demonstrates it, is doing work for the cause. All the literature +of our time that is worth reading is on the liberal side. All the +fiction that really interests the human mind is with us. No one +cares to read the old theological works. Essays written by professors +of theological colleges are regarded, even by Christians, with a +kind of charitable contempt. When any demonstration of science is +attacked by a creed, or a passage of Scripture, all the intelligent +smile. For these reasons I think that the best work for Liberalism +is being done where the best work for science is being done--where +the best work for man is being accomplished. Every legislator that +assists in the repeal of theological laws is doing a great work +for Liberalism. + +_Question_. In your opinion, what relation do Liberalism and +Prohibition bear to each other? + +_Answer_. I do not think they have anything to do with each other. +They have nothing in common except this: The Prohibitionists, I +presume, are endeavoring to do what they can for temperance; so +all intelligent Liberals are doing what they can for the cause of +temperance. The Prohibitionist endeavors to accomplish his object +by legislation--the Liberalist by education, by civilization, by +example, by persuasion. The method of the Liberalist is good, that +of the Prohibitionist chimerical and fanatical. + +_Question_. Do you think that Liberals should undertake a reform +in the marriage and divorce laws and relations? + +_Answer_. I think that Liberals should do all in their power to +induce people to regard marriage and divorce in a sensible light, +and without the slightest reference to any theological ideas. They +should use their influence to the end that marriage shall be +considered as a contract--the highest and holiest that men and +women can make. And they should also use their influence to have +the laws of divorce based on this fundamental idea,--that marriage +is a contract. All should be done that can be done by law to uphold +the sacredness of this relation. All should be done that can be +done to impress upon the minds of all men and all women their duty +to discharge all the obligations of the marriage contract faithfully +and cheerfully. I do not believe that it is to the interest of +the State or of the Nation, that people should be compelled to live +together who hate each other, or that a woman should be bound to +a man who has been false and who refuses to fulfill the contract +of marriage. I do not believe that any man should call upon the +police, or upon the creeds, or upon the church, to compel his wife +to remain under his roof, or to compel a woman against her will to +become the mother of his children. In other words, Liberals should +endeavor to civilize mankind, and when men and women are civilized, +the marriage question, and the divorce question, will be settled. + +_Question_. Should Liberals vote on Liberal issues? + +_Answer_. I think that, other things being anywhere near equal, +Liberals should vote for men who believe in liberty, men who believe +in giving to others the rights they claim for themselves--that is +to say, for civilized men, for men of some breadth of mind. Liberals +should do what they can to do away with all the theological +absurdities. + +_Question_. Can, or ought, the Liberals and Spiritualists to unite? + +_Answer_. All people should unite where they have objects in +common. They can vote together, and act together, without believing +the same on all points. A Liberal is not necessarily a Spiritualist, +and a Spiritualist is not necessarily a Liberal. If Spiritualists +wish to liberalize the Government, certainly Liberals would be glad +of their assistance, and if Spiritualists take any step in the +direction of freedom, the Liberals should stand by them to that +extent. + +_Question_. Which is the more dangerous to American institutions +--the National Reform Association (God-in-the-Constitution party) +or the Roman Catholic Church? + +_Answer_. The Association and the Catholic Church are dangerous +according to their power. The Catholic Church has far more power +than the Reform Association, and is consequently far more dangerous. +The God-in-the-Constitution association is weak, fanatical, stupid, +and absurd. What God are we to have in the Constitution? Whose +God? If we should agree to-morrow to put God in the Constitution, +the question would then be: Which God? On that question, the +religious world would fall out. In that direction there is no +danger. But the Roman Catholic Church is the enemy of intellectual +liberty. It is the enemy of investigation. It is the enemy of +free schools. That church always has been, always will be, the +enemy of freedom. It works in the dark. When in a minority it is +humility itself--when in power it is the impersonation of arrogance. +In weakness it crawls--in power it stands erect, and compels its +victims to fall upon their faces. The most dangerous institution +in this world, so far as the intellectual liberty of man is concerned, +is the Roman Catholic Church. Next to that is the Protestant +Church. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of the Christian religion and +the Christian Church? + +_Answer_. My opinion upon this subject is certainly well known. +The Christian Church is founded upon miracles--that is to say, upon +impossibilities. Of course, there is a great deal that is good in +the creeds of the churches, and in the sermons delivered by its +ministers; but mixed with this good is much that is evil. My +principal objection to orthodox religion is the dogma of eternal +pain. Nothing can be more infamously absurd. All civilized men +should denounce it--all women should regard it with a kind of +shuddering abhorrence. + +--_Secular Thought_, Toronto, Canada, 1888. + + +POPE LEO XIII. + +_Question_. Do you agree with the views of Pope Leo XIII. as +expressed in _The Herald_ of last week? + +_Answer_. I am not personally acquainted with Leo XIII., but I +have not the slightest idea that he loves Americans or their country. +I regard him as an enemy of intellectual liberty. He tells us that +where the church is free it will increase, and I say to him that +where others are free it will not. The Catholic Church has increased +in this country by immigration and in no other way. Possibly the +Pope is willing to use his power for the good of the whole people, +Protestants and Catholics, and to increase their prosperity and +happiness, because by this he means that he will use his power to +make Catholics out of Protestants. + +It is impossible for the Catholic Church to be in favor of mental +freedom. That church represents absolute authority. Its members +have no right to reason--no right to ask questions--they are called +upon simply to believe and to pay their subscriptions. + +_Question_. Do you agree with the Pope when he says that the result +of efforts which have been made to throw aside Christianity and +live without it can be seen in the present condition of society-- +discontent, disorder, hatred and profound unhappiness? + +_Answer_. Undoubtedly the people of Europe who wish to be free +are discontented. Undoubtedly these efforts to have something like +justice done will bring disorder. Those in power will hate those +who are endeavoring to drive them from their thrones. If the people +now, as formerly, would bear all burdens cheerfully placed upon +their shoulders by church and state--that is to say, if they were +so enslaved mentally that they would not even have sense enough to +complain, then there would be what the Pope might call "peace and +happiness"--that is to say, the peace of ignorance, and the happiness +of those who are expecting pay in another world for their agonies +endured in this. + +Of course, the revolutionaries of Europe are not satisfied with +the Catholic religion; neither are they satisfied with the Protestant. +Both of these religions rest upon authority. Both discourage +reason. Both say "Let him that hath ears to hear, hear," but +neither say let him that hath brains to think, think. + +Christianity has been thoroughly tried, and it is a failure. Nearly +every church has upheld slavery, not only of the body, but of the +mind. When Christian missionaries invade what they call a heathen +country, they are followed in a little while by merchants and +traders, and in a few days afterward by the army. The first real +work is to kill the heathen or steal their lands, or else reduce +them to something like slavery. + +I have no confidence in the reformation of this world by churches. +Churches for the most part exist, not for this world, but for +another. They are founded upon the supernatural, and they say: +"Take no thought for the morrow; put your trust in your Heavenly +Father and he will take care of you." On the other hand, science +says: "You must take care of yourself, live for the world in which +you happen to be--if there is another, live for that when you get +there." + +_Question_. What do you think of the plan to better the condition +of the workingmen, by committees headed by bishops of the Catholic +Church, in discussing their duties? + +_Answer_. If the bishops wish to discuss with anybody about duties +they had better discuss with the employers, instead of the employed. +This discussion had better take place between the clergy and the +capitalist. There is no need of discussing this question with the +poor wretches who cannot earn more than enough to keep their souls +in their bodies. If the Catholic Church has so much power, and if +it represents God on earth, let it turn its attention to softening +the hearts of capitalists, and no longer waste its time in preaching +patience to the poor slaves who are now bearing the burdens of the +world. + +_Question_. Do you agree with the Pope that: "Sound rules of life +must be founded on religion"? + +_Answer_. I do not. Sound rules of life must be founded on the +experience of mankind. In other words, we must live for this world. +Why should men throw away hundreds and thousands of millions of +dollars in building cathedrals and churches, and paying the salaries +of bishops and priests, and cardinals and popes, and get no possible +return for all this money except a few guesses about another world +--those guesses being stated as facts--when every pope and priest +and bishop knows that no one knows the slightest thing on the +subject. Superstition is the greatest burden borne by the industry +of the world. + +The nations of Europe to-day all pretend to be Christian, yet +millions of men are drilled and armed for the purpose of killing +other Christians. Each Christian nation is fortified to prevent +other Christians from devastating their fields. There is already +a debt of about twenty-five thousand millions of dollars which has +been incurred by Christian nations, because each one is afraid of +every other, and yet all say: "It is our duty to love our enemies." + +This world, in my judgment, is to be reformed through intelligence +--through development of the mind--not by credulity, but by +investigation; not by faith in the supernatural, but by faith in +the natural. The church has passed the zenith of her power. The +clergy must stand aside. Scientists must take their places. + +_Question_. Do you agree with the Pope in attacking the present +governments of Europe and the memories of Mazzini and Saffi? + +_Answer_. I do not. I think Mazzini was of more use to Italy than +all the popes that ever occupied the chair of St. Peter--which, by +the way, was not his chair. I have a thousand times more regard +for Mazzini, for Garibaldi, for Cavour, than I have for any gentleman +who pretends to be the representative of God. + +There is another objection I have to the Pope, and that is that he +was so scandalized when a monument was reared in Rome to the memory +of Giordano Bruno. Bruno was murdered about two hundred and sixty +years ago by the Catholic Church, and such has been the development +of the human brain and heart that on the very spot where he was +murdered a monument rises to his memory. + +But the vicar of God has remained stationary, and he regards this +mark of honor to one of the greatest and noblest of the human race +as an act of blasphemy. The poor old man acts as if America had +never been discovered--as if the world were still flat--and as if +the stars had been made out of little pieces left over from the +creation of the world and stuck in the sky simply to beautify the +night. + +But, after all, I do not blame this Pope. He is the victim of his +surroundings. He was never married. His heart was never softened +by wife or children. He was born that way, and, to tell you the +truth, he has my sincere sympathy. Let him talk about America and +stay in Italy. + +--_The Herald_, New York, April 22, 1890. + + +THE SACREDNESS OF THE SABBATH. + +_Question_. What do you think of the sacredness of the Sabbath? + +_Answer_. I think all days, all times and all seasons are alike +sacred. I think the best day in a man's life is the day that he +is truly the happiest. Every day in which good is done to humanity +is a holy day. + +If I were to make a calendar of sacred days, I would put down the +days in which the greatest inventions came to the mind of genius; +the days when scattered tribes became nations; the days when good +laws were passed; the days when bad ones were repealed; the days +when kings were dethroned, and the people given their own; in other +words, every day in which good has been done; in which men and +women have truly fallen in love, days in which babes were born +destined to change the civilization of the world. These are all +sacred days; days in which men have fought for the right, suffered +for the right, died for the right; all days in which there were +heroic actions for good. The day when slavery was abolished in +the United States is holier than any Sabbath by reason of "divine +consecration." + +Of course, I care nothing about the sacredness of the Sabbath +because it was hallowed in the Old Testament, or because of that +day Jehovah is said to have rested from his labors. A space of +time cannot be sacred, any more than a vacuum can be sacred, and +it is rendered sacred by deeds done in it, and not in and of itself. + +If we should finally invent some means of traveling by which we +could go a thousand miles a day, a man could escape Sunday all his +life by traveling West. He could start Monday, and stay Monday +all the time. Or, if he should some time get near the North Pole, +he could walk faster than the earth turns and thus beat Sunday all +the while. + +_Question_. Should not the museums and art galleries be thrown +open to the workingmen free on Sunday? + +_Answer_. Undoubtedly. In all civilized countries this is done, +and I believe it would be done in New York, only it is said that +money has been given on condition that the museums should be kept +closed on Sundays. I have always heard it said that large sums +will be withheld by certain old people who have the prospect of +dying in the near future if the museums are open on Sunday. + +This, however, seems to me a very poor and shallow excuse. Money +should not be received under such conditions. One of the curses +of our country has been the giving of gifts to colleges on certain +conditions. As, for instance, the money given to Andover by the +original founder on the condition that a certain creed be taught, +and other large amounts have been given on a like condition. Now, +the result of this is that the theological professor must teach +what these donors have indicated, or go out of the institution; or +--and this last "or" is generally the trouble--teach what he does +not believe, endeavoring to get around it by giving new meaning to +old words. + +I think the cause of intellectual progress has been much delayed +by these conditions put in the wills of supposed benefactors, so +that after they are dead they can rule people who have the habit +of being alive. In my opinion, a corpse is a poor ruler, and after +a man is dead he should keep quiet. + +Of course all that he did will live, and should be allowed to have +its natural effect. If he was a great inventor or discoverer, or +if he uttered great truths, these became the property of the world; +but he should not endeavor, after he is dead, to rule the living +by conditions attached to his gifts. + +All the museums and libraries should be opened, not only to +workingmen, but to all others. If to see great paintings, great +statues, wonderful works of art; if to read the thoughts of the +greatest men--if these things tend to the civilization of the race, +then they should be put as nearly as possible within the reach of +all. + +The man who works eight or ten or twelve hours a day has not time +during the six days of labor to visit libraries or museums. Sunday +is his day of leisure, his day of recreation, and on that day he +should have the privilege, and he himself should deem it a right +to visit all the public libraries and museums, parks and gardens. + +In other words, I think the laboring man should have the same rights +on Sundays, to say the least of it, that wealthy people have on +other days. The man of wealth has leisure. He can attend these +places on any day he may desire; but necessity being the master of +the poor man, Sunday is his one day for such a purpose. For men +of wealth to close the museums and libraries on that day, shows +that they have either a mistaken idea as to the well-being of their +fellow-men, or that they care nothing about the rights of any except +the wealthy. + +Personally, I have no sort of patience with the theological snivel +and drivel about the sacredness of the Sabbath. I do not understand +why they do not accept the words of their own Christ, namely, that +"the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." + +The hypocrites of Judea were great sticklers for the Sabbath, and +the orthodox Christians of New York are exactly the same. My own +opinion is that a man who has been at work all the week, in the +dust and heat, can hardly afford to waste his Sunday in hearing an +orthodox sermon--a sermon that gives him the cheerful intelligence +that his chances for being damned are largely in the majority. I +think it is far better for the workingman to go out with his family +in the park, into the woods, to some German garden, where he can +hear the music of Wagner, or even the waltzes of Strauss, or to +take a boat and go down to the shore of the sea. I think than in +summer a few waves of the ocean are far more refreshing then all +the orthodox sermons of the world. + +As a matter of fact, I believe the preachers leave the city in the +summer and let the Devil do his worst. Whether it is believed that +the Devil has less power in warm weather, I do not know. But I do +know that, as the mercury rises, the anxiety about souls decreases, +and the hotter New York becomes, the cooler hell seems to be. + +I want the workingman, no matter what he works at--whether at +doctoring people, or trying law suits, or running for office--to +have a real good time on Sunday. He, of course, must be careful +not to interfere with the rights of others. He ought not to play +draw-poker on the steps of a church; neither should he stone a +Chinese funeral, nor go to any excesses; but all the week long he +should have it in his mind: Next Sunday I am going to have a good +time. My wife and I and the children are going to have a happy +time. I am going out with the girl I like; or my young man is +going to take me to the picnic. And this thought, and this hope, +of having a good time on Sunday--of seeing some great pictures at +the Metropolitan Art Gallery--together with a good many bad ones-- +will make work easy and lighten the burden on the shoulders of toil. + +I take a great interest, too, in the working women--particularly +in the working woman. I think that every workingman should see to +it that every working woman has a good time on Sunday. I am no +preacher. All I want is that everybody should enjoy himself in a +way that he will not and does not interfere with the enjoyment of +others. + +It will not do to say that we cannot trust the people. Our Government +is based upon the idea that the people can be trusted, and those +who say that the workingmen cannot be trusted, do not believe in +Republican or Democratic institutions. For one, I am perfectly +willing to trust the working people of the country. I do, every +day. I trust the engineers on the cars and steamers. I trust the +builders of houses. I trust all laboring men every day of my life, +and if the laboring people of the country were not trustworthy--if +they were malicious or dishonest--life would not be worth living. + +--_The Journal_, New York, June 6, 1890. + + +THE WEST AND SOUTH. + +_Question_. Do you think the South will ever equal or surpass the +West in point of prosperity? + +_Answer_. I do not. The West has better soil and more of the +elements of wealth. It is not liable to yellow fever; its rivers +have better banks; the people have more thrift, more enterprise, +more political hospitality; education is more general; the people +are more inventive; better traders, and besides all this, there is +no race problem. The Southern people are what their surroundings +made them, and the influence of slavery has not yet died out. In +my judgment the climate of the West is superior to that of the +South. The West has good, cold winters, and they make people a +little more frugal, prudent and industrious. Winters make good +homes, cheerful firesides, and, after all, civilization commences +at the hearthstone. The South is growing, and will continue to +grow, but it will never equal the West. The West is destined to +dominate the Republic. + +_Question_. Do you consider the new ballot-law adapted to the +needs of our system of elections? If not, in what particulars does +it require amendment? + +_Answer_. Personally I like the brave and open way. The secret +ballot lacks courage. I want people to know just how I vote. The +old _viva voce_ way was manly and looked well. Every American +should be taught that he votes as a sovereign--an emperor--and he +should exercise the right in a kingly way. But if we must have +the secret ballot, then let it be secret indeed, and let the crowd +stand back while the king votes. + +_Question_. What do you think of the service pension movement? + +_Answer_. I see that there is a great deal of talk here in Indiana +about this service pension movement. It has always seemed to me +that the pension fund has been frittered away. Of what use is it +to give a man two or three dollars a month? If a man is rich why +should he have any pension? I think it would be better to give +pensions only to the needy, and then give them enough to support +them. If the man was in the army a day or a month, and was uninjured, +and can make his own living, or has enough, why should he have a +pension? I believe in giving to the wounded and disabled and poor, +with a liberal hand, but not to the rich. I know that the nation +could not pay the men who fought and suffered. There is not money +enough in the world to pay the heroes for what they did and endured +--but there is money enough to keep every wounded and diseased +soldier from want. There is money enough to fill the lives of +those who gave limbs or health for the sake of the Republic, with +comfort and happiness. I would also like to see the poor soldier +taken care of whether he was wounded or not, but I see no propriety +in giving to those who do not need. + +--_The Journal_, Indianapolis, Indiana, June 21, 1890. + + +THE WESTMINSTER CREED AND OTHER SUBJECTS. + +_Question_. What do you think of the revision of the Westminster +creed? + +_Answer_. I think that the intelligence and morality of the age +demand the revision. The Westminster creed is infamous. It makes +God an infinite monster, and men the most miserable of beings. +That creed has made millions insane. It has furrowed countless +cheeks with tears. Under its influence the sentiments and sympathies +of the heart have withered. This creed was written by the worst +of men. The civilized Presbyterians do not believe it. The +intelligent clergyman will not preach it, and all good men who +understand it, hold it in abhorrence. But the fact is that it is +just as good as the creed of any orthodox church. All these creeds +must be revised. Young America will not be consoled by the doctrine +of eternal pain. Yes, the creeds must be revised or the churches +will be closed. + +_Question_. What do you think of the influence of the press on +religion? + +_Answer_. If you mean on orthodox religion, then I say the press +is helping to destroy it. Just to the extent that the press is +intelligent and fearless, it is and must be the enemy of superstition. +Every fact in the universe is the enemy of every falsehood. The +press furnishes food for, and excites thought. This tends to the +destruction of the miraculous and absurd. I regard the press as +the friend of progress and consequently the foe of orthodox religion. +The old dogmas do not make the people happy. What is called religion +is full of fear and grief. The clergy are always talking about +dying, about the grave and eternal pain. They do not add to the +sunshine of life. If they could have their way all the birds would +stop singing, the flowers would lose their color and perfume, and +all the owls would sit on dead trees and hoot, "Broad is the road +that leads to death." + +_Question_. If you should write your last sentence on religious +topics what would be your closing? + +_Answer_. I now in the presence of death affirm and reaffirm the +truth of all that I have said against the superstitions of the +world. I would say at least that much on the subject with my last +breath. + +_Question_. What, in your opinion, will be Browning's position in +the literature of the future? + +_Answer_. Lower than at present. Mrs. Browning was far greater +than her husband. He never wrote anything comparable to "Mother +and Poet." Browning lacked form, and that is as great a lack in +poetry as it is in sculpture. He was the author of some great +lines, some great thoughts, but he was obscure, uneven and was +always mixing the poetic with the commonplace. To me he cannot be +compared with Shelley or Keats, or with our own Walt Whitman. Of +course poetry cannot be very well discussed. Each man knows what +he likes, what touches his heart and what words burst into blossom, +but he cannot judge for others. After one has read Shakespeare, +Burns and Byron, and Shelley and Keats; after he has read the +"Sonnets" and the "Daisy" and the "Prisoner of Chillon" and the +"Skylark" and the "Ode to the Grecian Urn"--the "Flight of the +Duchess" seems a little weak. + +--_The Post-Express_, Rochester, New York, June 23, 1890. + + +SHAKESPEARE AND BACON. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of Ignatius Donnelly as a literary +man irrespective of his Baconian theory? + +_Answer_. I know that Mr. Donnelly enjoys the reputation of being +a man of decided ability and that he is regarded by many as a great +orator. He is known to me through his Baconian theory, and in that +of course I have no confidence. It is nearly as ingenious as +absurd. He has spent great time, and has devoted much curious +learning to the subject, and has at last succeeded in convincing +himself that Shakespeare claimed that which he did not write, and +that Bacon wrote that which he did not claim. But to me the theory +is without the slightest foundation. + +_Question_. Mr. Donnelly asks: "Can you imagine the author of +such grand productions retiring to that mud house in Stratford to +live without a single copy of the quarto that has made his name +famous?" What do you say? + +_Answer_. Yes; I can. Shakespeare died in 1616, and the quarto +was published in 1623, seven years after he was dead. Under these +circumstances I think Shakespeare ought to be excused, even by +those who attack him with the greatest bitterness, for not having a copy +of the book. There is, however, another side to his. Bacon did +not die until long after the quarto was published. Did he have a +copy? Did he mention the copy in his will? Did he ever mention +the quarto in any letter, essay, or in any way? He left a library, +was there a copy of the plays in it? Has there ever been found a +line from any play or sonnet in his handwriting? Bacon left his +writings, his papers, all in perfect order, but no plays, no sonnets, +said nothing about plays--claimed nothing on their behalf. This +is the other side. Now, there is still another thing. The edition +of 1623 was published by Shakespeare's friends, Heminge and Condell. +They knew him--had been with him for years, and they collected most +of his plays and put them in book form. + +Ben Jonson wrote a preface, in which he placed Shakespeare above +all the other poets--declared that he was for all time. + +The edition of 1623 was gotten up by actors, by the friends and +associates of Shakespeare, vouched for by dramatic writers--by +those who knew him. This is enough. + +_Question_. How do you explain the figure: "His soul, like Mazeppa, +was lashed naked to the wild horse of every fear and love and hate"? +Mr. Donnelly does not understand you. + +_Answer_. It hardly seems necessary to explain a thing as simple +and plain as that. Men are carried away by some fierce passion-- +carried away in spite of themselves as Mazeppa was carried by the +wild horse to which he was lashed. Whether the comparison is good +or bad it is at least plain. Nothing could tempt me to call Mr. +Donnelly's veracity in question. He says that he does not understand +the sentence and I most cheerfully admit that he tells the exact +truth. + +_Question_. Mr. Donnelly says that you said: "Where there is +genius, education seems almost unnecessary," and he denounces your +doctrine as the most abominable doctrine ever taught. What have +you to say to that? + +_Answer_. In the first place, I never made the remark. In the +next place, it may be well enough to ask what education is. Much +is taught in colleges that is of no earthly use; much is taught +that is hurtful. There are thousands of educated men who never +graduated from any college or university. Every observant, thoughtful +man is educating himself as long as he lives. Men are better then +books. Observation is a great teacher. A man of talent learns +slowly. He does not readily see the necessary relation that one +fact bears to another. A man of genius, learning one fact, instantly +sees hundreds of others. It is not necessary for such a man to +attend college. The world is his university. Every man he meets +is a book--every woman a volume every fact a torch--and so without +the aid of the so-called schools he rises to the very top. +Shakespeare was such a man. + +_Question_. Mr. Donnelly says that: "The biggest myth ever on +earth was Shakespeare, and that if Francis Bacon had said to the +people, I, Francis Bacon, a gentleman of gentlemen, have been taking +in secret my share of the coppers and shillings taken at the door +of those low playhouses, he would have been ruined. If he had put +the plays forth simply as poetry it would have ruined his legal +reputation." What do you think of this? + +_Answer_. I hardly think that Shakespeare was a myth. He was +certainly born, married, lived in London, belonged to a company of +actors; went back to Stratford, where he had a family, and died. +All these things do not as a rule happen to myths. In addition to +this, those who knew him believed him to be the author of the plays. +Bacon's friends never suspected him. I do not think it would have +hurt Bacon to have admitted that he wrote "Lear" and "Othello," +and that he was getting "coppers and shillings" to which he was +justly entitled. Certainly not as much as for him to have written +this, which if fact, though not in exact form, he did write: "I, +Francis Bacon, a gentleman of gentlemen, have been taking coppers +and shillings to which I was not entitled--but which I received as +bribes while sitting as a judge." He has been excused for two +reasons. First, because his salary was small, and, second, because +it was the custom for judges to receive presents. + +Bacon was a lawyer. He was charged with corruption--with having +taken bribes, with having sold his decisions. He knew what the +custom was and knew how small his salary was. But he did not plead +the custom in his defense. He did not mention the smallness of +the salary. He confessed that he was guilty--as charged. His +confession was deemed too general and he was called upon by the +Lords to make a specific confession. This he did. He specified +the cases in which he had received the money and told how much, +and begged for mercy. He did not make his confession, as Mr. +Donnelly is reported to have said, to get his fine remitted. The +confession was made before the fine was imposed. + +Neither do I think that the theatre in which the plays of Shakespeare +were represented could or should be called a "low play house." +The fact that "Othello," "Lear," "Hamlet," "Julius Caesar," and +the other great dramas were first played in that playhouse made it +the greatest building in the world. The gods themselves should +have occupied seats in that theatre, where for the first time the +greatest productions of the human mind were put upon the stage. + +--_The Tribune_, Minneapolis, Minn., May 31, 1891. + + +GROWING OLD GRACEFULLY, AND PRESBYTERIANISM. + +_Question_. How have you acquired the art of growing old +gracefully? + +_Answer_. It is very hard to live a great while without getting +old, and it is hardly worth while to die just to keep young. It +is claimed that people with certain incomes live longer than those +who have to earn their bread. But the income people have a stupid +kind of life, and though they may hang on a good many years, they +can hardly be said to do much real living. The best you can say +is, not that they lived so many years, but that it took them so +many years to die. Some people imagine that regular habits prolong +life, but that depends somewhat on the habits. Only the other day +I read an article written by a physician, in which regular habits +--good ones, were declared to be quite dangerous. + +Where life is perfectly regular, all the wear and tear comes on +the same nerves--every blow falls on the same place. Variety, even +in a bad direction, is a great relief. But living long has nothing +to do with getting old gracefully. Good nature is a great enemy +of wrinkles, and cheerfulness helps the complexion. If we could +only keep from being annoyed at little things, it would add to the +luxury of living. Great sorrows are few, and after all do not +affect us as much as the many irritating, almost nothings that +attack from every side. The traveler is bothered more with dust +than mountains. It is a great thing to have an object in life-- +something to work for and think for. If a man thinks only about +himself, his own comfort, his own importance, he will not grow old +gracefully. More and more his spirit, small and mean, will leave +its impress on his face, and especially in his eyes. You look at +him and feel that there is no jewel in the casket; that a shriveled +soul is living in a tumble-down house. + +The body gets its grace from the mind. I suppose that we are all +more or less responsible for our looks. Perhaps the thinker of +great thoughts, the doer of noble deeds, moulds his features in +harmony with his life. + +Probably the best medicine, the greatest beautifier in the world, +is to make somebody else happy. I have noticed that good mothers +have faces as serene as a cloudless day in June, and the older the +serener. It is a great thing to know the relative importance of +things, and those who do, get the most out of life. Those who take +an interest in what they see, and keep their minds busy are always +young. + +The other day I met a blacksmith who has given much attention to +geology and fossil remains. He told me how happy he was in his +excursions. He was nearly seventy years old, and yet he had the +enthusiasm of a boy. He said he had some very fine specimens, +"but," said he, "nearly every night I dream of finding perfect +ones." + +That man will keep young as long as he lives. As long as a man +lives he should study. Death alone has the right to dismiss the +school. No man can get too much knowledge. In that, he can have +all the avarice he wants, but he can get too much property. If +the business men would stop when they got enough, they might have +a chance to grow old gracefully. But the most of them go on and +on, until, like the old stage horse, stiff and lame, they drop dead +in the road. The intelligent, the kind, the reasonably contented, +the courageous, the self-poised, grow old gracefully. + +_Question_. Are not the restraints to free religious thought being +worn away, as the world grows older, and will not the recent attacks +of the religious press and pulpit upon the unorthodoxy of Dr. +Briggs, Rev. R. Heber Newton and the prospective Episcopal bishop +of Massachusetts, Dr. Phillips Brooks, and others, have a tendency +still further to extend this freedom? + +_Answer_. Of course the world is growing somewhat wiser--getting +more sense day by day. It is amazing to me that any human being +or beings ever wrote the Presbyterian creed. Nothing can be more +absurd--more barbaric than that creed. It makes man the sport of +an infinite monster, and yet good people, men and women of ability, +who have gained eminence in almost every department of human effort, +stand by this creed as if it were filled with wisdom and goodness. +They really think that a good God damns his poor ignorant children +just for his own glory, and that he sends people to perdition, not +for any evil in them, but to the praise of his glorious justice. +Dr. Briggs has been wicked enough to doubt this phase of God's +goodness, and Dr. Bridgman was heartless enough to drop a tear in +hell. Of course they have no idea of what justice really is. + +The Presbyterian General Assembly that has just adjourned stood by +Calvinism. The "Five Points" are as sharp as ever. The members +of that assembly--most of them--find all their happiness in the +"creed." They need no other amusement. If they feel blue they +read about total depravity--and cheer up. In moments of great +sorrow they think of the tale of non-elect infants, and their hearts +overflow with a kind of joy. + +They cannot imagine why people wish to attend the theatre when they +can read the "Confession of Faith," or why they should feel like +dancing after they do read it. + +It is very sad to think of the young men and women who have been +eternally ruined by witnessing the plays of Shakespeare, and it is +also sad to think of the young people, foolish enough to be happy, +keeping time to the pulse of music, waltzing to hell in loving +pairs--all for the glory of God, and to the praise of his glorious +justice. I think, too, of the thousands of men and women who, while +listening to the music of Wagner, have absolutely forgotten the +Presbyterian creed, and who for a little while have been as happy +as if the creed had never been written. Tear down the theatres, +burn the opera houses, break all musical instruments, and then let +us go to church. + +I am not at all surprised that the General Assembly took up this +progressive euchre matter. The word "progressive" is always +obnoxious to the ministers. Euchre under another name might go. +Of course, progressive euchre is a kind of gambling. I knew a +young man, or rather heard of him, who won at progressive euchre +a silver spoon. At first this looks like nothing, almost innocent, +and yet that spoon, gotten for nothing, sowed the seed of gambling +in that young man's brain. He became infatuated with euchre, then +with cards in general, then with draw-poker in particular,--then +into Wall Street. He is now a total wreck, and has the impudence +to say that is was all "pre-ordained." Think of the thousands and +millions that are being demoralized by games of chance, by marbles +--when they play for keeps--by billiards and croquet, by fox and +geese, authors, halma, tiddledywinks and pigs in clover. In all +these miserable games, is the infamous element of chance--the raw +material of gambling. Probably none of these games could be played +exclusively for the glory of God. I agree with the Presbyterian +General Assembly, if the creed is true, why should anyone try to +amuse himself? If there is a hell, and all of us are going there, +there should never be another smile on the human face. We should +spend our days in sighs, our nights in tears. The world should go +insane. We find strange combinations--good men with bad creeds, +and bad men with good ones--and so the great world stumbles along. + +--_The Blade_, Toledo, Ohio, June 4, 1891. + + +CREEDS. + +There is a natural desire on the part of every intelligent human +being to harmonize his information--to make his theories agree--in +other words, to make what he knows, or thinks he knows, in one +department, agree and harmonize with what he knows, or thinks he +knows, in every other department of human knowledge. + +The human race has not advanced in line, neither has it advanced +in all departments with the same rapidity. It is with the race as +it is with an individual. A man may turn his entire attention to +some one subject--as, for instance, to geology--and neglect other +sciences. He may be a good geologist, but an exceedingly poor +astronomer; or he may know nothing of politics or of political +economy. So he may be a successful statesman and know nothing of +theology. But if a man, successful in one direction, takes up some +other question, he is bound to use the knowledge he has on one +subject as a kind of standard to measure what he is told on some +other subject. If he is a chemist, it will be natural for him, +when studying some other question, to use what he knows in chemistry; +that is to say, he will expect to find cause and effect everywhere +--succession and resemblance. He will say: It must be in all +other sciences as in chemistry--there must be no chance. The +elements have no caprice. Iron is always the same. Gold does not +change. Prussic acid is always poison--it has no freaks. So he +will reason as to all facts in nature. He will be a believer in +the atomic integrity of all matter, in the persistence of gravitation. +Being so trained, and so convinced, his tendency will be to weigh +what is called new information in the same scales that he has been +using. + +Now, for the application of this. Progress in religion is the +slowest, because man is kept back by sentimentality, by the efforts +of parents, by old associations. A thousand unseen tendrils are +twining about him that he must necessarily break if he advances. +In other departments of knowledge inducements are held out and +rewards are promised to the one who does succeed--to the one who +really does advance--to the one who discovers new facts. But in +religion, instead of rewards being promised, threats are made. +The man is told that he must not advance; that if he takes a step +forward, it is at the peril of his soul; that if he thinks and +investigates, he is in danger of exciting the wrath of God. +Consequently religion has been of the slowest growth. Now, in most +departments of knowledge, man has advanced; and coming back to the +original statement--a desire to harmonize all that we know--there +is a growing desire on the part of intelligent men to have a religion +fit to keep company with the other sciences. + +Our creeds were made in times of ignorance. They suited very well +a flat world, and a God who lived in the sky just above us and who +used the lightning to destroy his enemies. This God was regarded +much as a savage regarded the head of his tribe--as one having the +right to reward and punish. And this God, being much greater than +a chief of the tribe, could give greater rewards and inflict greater +punishments. They knew that the ordinary chief, or the ordinary +king, punished the slightest offence with death. They also knew +that these chiefs and kings tortured their victims as long as the +victims could bear the torture. So when they described their God, +they gave this God power to keep the tortured victim alive forever +--because they knew that the earthly chief, or the earthly king, +would prolong the life of the tortured for the sake of increasing +the agonies of the victim. In those savage days they regarded +punishment as the only means of protecting society. In consequence +of this they built heaven and hell on an earthly plan, and they +put God--that is to say the chief, that is to say the king--on a +throne like an earthly king. + +Of course, these views were all ignorant and barbaric; but in that +blessed day their geology and astronomy were on a par with their +theology. There was a harmony in all departments of knowledge, or +rather of ignorance. Since that time there has been a great advance +made in the idea of government--the old idea being that the right +to govern came from God to the king, and from the king to his +people. Now intelligent people believe that the source of authority +has been changed, and that all just powers of government are derived +from the consent of the governed. So there has been a great advance +in the philosophy of punishment--in the treatment of criminals. +So, too, in all the sciences. The earth is no longer flat; heaven +is not immediately above us; the universe has been infinitely +enlarged, and we have at last found that our earth is but a grain +of sand, a speck on the great shore of the infinite. Consequently +there is a discrepancy, a discord, a contradiction between our +theology and the other sciences. Men of intelligence feel this. +Dr. Briggs concluded that a perfectly good and intelligent God +could not have created billions of sentient beings, knowing that +they were to be eternally miserable. No man could do such a thing, +had he the power, without being infinitely malicious. Dr. Briggs +began to have a little hope for the human race--began to think that +maybe God is better than the creed describes him. + +And right here it may be well enough to remark that no one has ever +been declared a heretic for thinking God bad. Heresy has consisted +in thinking God better than the church said he was. The man who +said God will damn nearly everybody, was orthodox. The man who +said God will save everybody, was denounced as a blaspheming wretch, +as one who assailed and maligned the character of God. I can +remember when the Universalists were denounced as vehemently and +maliciously as the Atheists are to-day. + +Now, Dr. Briggs is undoubtedly an intelligent man. He knows that +nobody on earth knows who wrote the five books of Moses. He knows +that they were not written until hundreds of years after Moses was +dead. He knows that two or more persons were the authors of Isaiah. +He knows that David did not write to exceed three or four of the +Psalms. He knows that the Book of Job is not a Jewish book. He +knows that the Songs of Solomon were not written by Solomon. He +knows that the Book of Ecclesiastes was written by a Freethinker. +He also knows that there is not in existence to-day--so far as +anybody knows--any of the manuscripts of the Old or New Testaments. + +So about the New Testament, Dr. Briggs knows that nobody lives who +has ever seen an original manuscript, or who ever saw anybody that +did see one, or that claims to have seen one. He knows that nobody +knows who wrote Matthew or Mark or Luke or John. He knows that +John did not write John, and that that gospel was not written until +long after John was dead. He knows that no one knows who wrote +the Hebrews. He also knows that the Book of Revelation is an insane +production. Dr. Briggs also knows the way in which these books came +to be canonical, and he knows that the way was no more binding than +a resolution passed by a political convention. He also knows that +many books were left out that had for centuries equal authority +with those that were put in. He also knows that many passages-- +and the very passages upon which many churches are founded--are +interpolations. He knows that the last chapter of Mark, beginning +with the sixteenth verse to the end, is an interpolation; and he +also knows that neither Matthew nor Mark nor Luke ever said one +word about the necessity of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, or +of believing anything--not one word about believing the Bible or +joining the church, or doing any particular thing in the way of +ceremony to insure salvation. He knows that according to Matthew, +God agreed to forgive us when we would forgive others. Consequently +he knows that there is not one particle of what is called modern +theology in Matthew, Mark, or Luke. He knows that the trouble +commenced in John, and that John was not written until probably +one hundred and fifty years--possibly two hundred years--after +Christ was dead. So he also knows that the sin against the Holy +Ghost is an interpolation; that "I came not to bring peace but a +sword," if not an interpolation, is an absolute contradiction. +So, too, he knows that the promise to forgive in heaven what the +disciples should forgive on earth, is an interpolation; and that +if its not an interpolation, it is without the slightest sense in +fact. + +Knowing these things, and knowing, in addition to what I have +stated, that there are thirty thousand or forty thousand mistakes +in the Old Testament, that there are a great many contradictions +and absurdities, than many of the laws are cruel and infamous, and +could have been made only by a barbarous people, Dr. Briggs has +concluded that, after all, the torch that sheds the serenest and +divinest light is the human reason, and that we must investigate +the Bible as we do other books. At least, I suppose he has reached +some such conclusion. He may imagine that the pure gold of +inspiration still runs through the quartz and porphyry of ignorance +and mistake, and that all we have to do is to extract the shining +metal by some process that may be called theological smelting; and +if so I have no fault to find. Dr. Briggs has taken a step in +advance--that is to say, the tree is growing, and when the tree +grows, the bark splits; when the new leaves come the old leaves +are rotting on the ground. + +The Presbyterian creed is a very bad creed. It has been the +stumbling-block, not only of the head, but of the heart for many +generations. I do not know that it is, in fact, worse than any +other orthodox creed; but the bad features are stated with an +explicitness and emphasized with a candor that render the creed +absolutely appalling. It is amazing to me that any man ever wrote +it, or that any set of men ever produced it. It is more amazing +to me that any human being ever believed in it. It is still more +amazing that any human being ever thought it wicked not to believe +it. It is more amazing still, than all the others combined, that +any human being ever wanted it to be true. + +This creed is a relic of the Middle Ages. It has in it the malice, +the malicious logic, the total depravity, the utter heartlessness +of John Calvin, and it gives me great pleasure to say that no +Presbyterian was ever as bad as his creed. And here let me say, +as I have said many times, that I do not hate Presbyterians--because +among them I count some of my best friends--but I hate Presbyterianism. +And I cannot illustrate this any better than by saying, I do not +hate a man because he has the rheumatism, but I hate the rheumatism +because it has a man. + +The Presbyterian Church is growing, and is growing because, as I +said at first, there is a universal tendency in the mind of man to +harmonize all that he knows or thinks he knows. This growth may +be delayed. The buds of heresy may be kept back by the north wind +of Princeton and by the early frost called Patton. In spite of +these souvenirs of the Dark Ages, the church must continue to grow. +The theologians who regard theology as something higher than a +trade, tend toward Liberalism. Those who regard preaching as a +business, and the inculcation of sentiment as a trade, will stand +by the lowest possible views. They will cling to the letter and +throw away the spirit. They prefer the dead limb to a new bud or +to a new leaf. They want no more sap. They delight in the dead +tree, in its unbending nature, and they mistake the stiffness of +death for the vigor and resistance of life. + +Now, as with Dr. Briggs, so with Dr. Bridgman, although it seems +to me that he has simply jumped from the frying-pan into the fire; +and why he should prefer the Episcopal creed to the Baptist, is +more than I can imagine. The Episcopal creed is, in fact, just as +bad as the Presbyterian. It calmly and with unruffled brow, utters +the sentence of eternal punishment on the majority of the human +race, and the Episcopalian expects to be happy in heaven, with his +son or daughter or his mother or wife in hell. + +Dr. Bridgman will find himself exactly in the position of the Rev. +Mr. Newton, provided he expresses his thought. But I account for +the Bridgmans and for the Newtons by the fact that there is still +sympathy in the human heart, and that there is still intelligence +in the human brain. For my part, I am glad to see this growth in +the orthodox churches, and the quicker they revise their creeds +the better. + +I oppose nothing that is good in any creed--I attack only that +which is ignorant, cruel and absurd, and I make the attack in the +interest of human liberty, and for the sake of human happiness. + +_Question_. What do you think of the action of the Presbyterian +General Assembly at Detroit, and what effect do you think it will +have on religious growth? + +_Answer_. That General Assembly was controlled by the orthodox +within the church, by the strict constructionists and by the +Calvinists; by gentlemen who not only believe the creed, not only +believe that a vast majority of people are going to hell, but are +really glad of it; by gentlemen who, when they feel a little blue, +read about total depravity to cheer up, and when they think of the +mercy of God as exhibited in their salvation, and the justice of +God as illustrated by the damnation of others, their hearts burst +into a kind of efflorescence of joy. + +These gentlemen are opposed to all kinds of amusements except +reading the Bible, the Confession of Faith, and the creed, and +listening to Presbyterian sermons and prayers. All these things +they regard as the food of cheerfulness. They warn the elect +against theatres and operas, dancing and games of chance. + +Well, if their doctrine is true, there ought to be no theatres, +except exhibitions of hell; there ought to be no operas, except +where the music is a succession of wails for the misfortunes of +man. If their doctrine is true, I do not see how any human being +could ever smile again--I do not see how a mother could welcome +her babe; everything in nature would become hateful; flowers and +sunshine would simply tell us of our fate. + +My doctrine is exactly the opposite of this. Let us enjoy ourselves +every moment that we can. The love of the dramatic is universal. +The stage has not simply amused, but it has elevated mankind. The +greatest genius of our world poured the treasures of his soul into +the drama. I do not believe that any girl can be corrupted, or +that any man can be injured, by becoming acquainted with Isabella +or Miranda or Juliet or Imogen, or any of the great heroines of +Shakespeare. + +So I regard the opera as one of the great civilizers. No one can +listen to the symphonies of Beethoven, or the music of Schubert, +without receiving a benefit. And no one can hear the operas of +Wagner without feeling that he has been ennobled and refined. + +Why is it the Presbyterians are so opposed to music in the world, +and yet expect to have so much in heaven? Is not music just as +demoralizing in the sky as on the earth, and does anybody believe +that Abraham or Isaac or Jacob, ever played any music comparable +to Wagner? + +Why should we postpone our joy to another world? Thousands of +people take great pleasure in dancing, and I say let them dance. +Dancing is better than weeping and wailing over a theology born of +ignorance and superstition. + +And so with games of chance. There is a certain pleasure in playing +games, and the pleasure is of the most innocent character. Let +all these games be played at home and children will not prefer the +saloon to the society of their parents. I believe in cards and +billiards, and would believe in progressive euchre, were it more +of a game--the great objection to it is its lack of complexity. +My idea is to get what little happiness you can out of this life, +and to enjoy all sunshine that breaks through the clouds of +misfortune. Life is poor enough at best. No one should fail to +pick up every jewel of joy that can be found in his path. Every +one should be as happy as he can, provided he is not happy at the +expense of another, and no person rightly constituted can be happy +at the expense of another. + +So let us get all we can of good between the cradle and the grave; +all that we can of the truly dramatic; all that we can of music; +all that we can of art; all that we can of enjoyment; and if, when +death comes, that is the end, we have at least made the best of +this life; and if there be another life, let us make the best of +that. + +I am doing what little I can to hasten the coming of the day when +the human race will enjoy liberty--not simply of body, but liberty +of mind. And by liberty of mind I mean freedom from superstition, +and added to that, the intelligence to find out the conditions of +happiness; and added to that, the wisdom to live in accordance with +those conditions. + +--_The Morning Advertiser_, New York, June 12, 1891. + + +THE TENDENCY OF MODERN THOUGHT. + +_Question_. Do you regard the Briggs trial as any evidence of the +growth of Liberalism in the church itself? + +_Answer_. When men get together, and make what they call a creed, +the supposition is that they then say as nearly as possible what +they mean and what they believe. A written creed, of necessity, +remains substantially the same. In a few years this creed ceases +to give exactly the new shade of thought. Then begin two processes, +one of destruction and the other of preservation. In every church, +as in every party, and as you may say in every corporation, there +are two wings--one progressive, the other conservative. In the +church there will be a few, and they will represent the real +intelligence of the church, who become dissatisfied with the creed, +and who at first satisfy themselves by giving new meanings to old +words. On the other hand, the conservative party appeals to +emotions, to memories, and to the experiences of their fellow- +members, for the purpose of upholding the old dogmas and the old +ideas; so that each creed is like a crumbling castle. The +conservatives plant ivy and other vines, hoping that their leaves +will hide the cracks and erosions of time; but the thoughtful see +beyond these leaves and are satisfied that the structure itself is +in the process of decay, and that no amount of ivy can restore the +crumbling stones. + +The old Presbyterian creed, when it was first formulated, satisfied +a certain religious intellect. At that time people were not very +merciful. They had no clear conceptions of justice. Their lives +were for the most part hard; most of them suffered the pains and +pangs of poverty; nearly all lived in tyrannical governments and +were the sport of nobles and kings. Their idea of God was born of +their surroundings. God, to them, was an infinite king who delighted +in exhibitions of power. At any rate, their minds were so constructed +that they conceived of an infinite being who, billions of years +before the world was, made up his mind as to whom he would save +and whom he would damn. He not only made up his mind as to the +number he would save, and the number that should be lost, but he +saved and damned without the slightest reference to the character +of the individual. They believed then, and some pretend to believe +still, that God damns a man not because he is bad, and that he +saves a man not because he is good, but simply for the purpose of +self-glorification as an exhibition of his eternal justice. It +would be impossible to conceive of any creed more horrible than +that of the Presbyterians. Although I admit--and I not only admit +but I assert--that the creeds of all orthodox Christians are +substantially the same, the Presbyterian creed says plainly what +it means. There is no hesitation, no evasion. The horrible truth, +so-called, is stated in the clearest possible language. One would +think after reading this creed, that the men who wrote it not only +believed it, but were really glad it was true. + +Ideas of justice, of the use of power, of the use of mercy, have +greatly changed in the last century. We are beginning dimly to +see that each man is the result of an infinite number of conditions, +of an infinite number of facts, most of which existed before he +was born. We are beginning dimly to see that while reason is a +pilot, each soul navigates the mysterious sea filled with tides +and unknown currents set in motion by ancestors long since dust. +We are beginning to see that defects of mind are transmitted +precisely the same as defects of body, and in my judgment the time +is coming when we shall not more think of punishing a man for +larceny than for having the consumption. We shall know that the +thief is a necessary and natural result of conditions, preparing, +you may say, the field of the world for the growth of man. We +shall no longer depend upon accident and ignorance and providence. +We shall depend upon intelligence and science. + +The Presbyterian creed is no longer in harmony with the average +sense of man. It shocks the average mind. It seems too monstrous +to be true; too horrible to find a lodgment in the mind of the +civilized man. The Presbyterian minister who thinks, is giving +new meanings to the old words. The Presbyterian minister who feels, +also gives new meanings to the old words. Only those who neither +think nor feel remain orthodox. + +For many years the Christian world has been engaged in examining +the religions of other peoples, and the Christian scholars have +had but little trouble in demonstrating the origin of Mohammedanism +and Buddhism and all other isms except ours. After having examined +other religions in the light of science, it occurred to some of +our theologians to examine their own doctrine in the same way, and +the result has been exactly the same in both cases. Dr. Briggs, +as I believe, is a man of education. He is undoubtedly familiar +with other religions, and has, to some extent at least, made himself +familiar with the sacred books of other people. Dr. Briggs knows +that no human being knows who wrote a line of the Old Testament. +He knows as well as he can know anything, for instance, that Moses +never wrote one word of the books attributed to him. He knows that +the book of Genesis was made by putting two or three stories +together. He also knows that it is not the oldest story, but was +borrowed. He knows that in this book of Genesis there is not one +word adapted to make a human being better, or to shed the slightest +light on human conduct. He knows, if he knows anything, that the +Mosaic Code, so-called, was, and is, exceedingly barbarous and not +adapted to do justice between man and man, or between nation and +nation. He knows that the Jewish people pursued a course adapted +to destroy themselves; that they refused to make friends with their +neighbors; that they had not the slightest idea of the rights of +other people; that they really supposed that the earth was theirs, +and that their God was the greatest God in the heavens. He also +knows that there are many thousands of mistakes in the Old Testament +as translated. He knows that the book of Isaiah is made up of +several books. He knows the same thing in regard to the New +Testament. He also knows that there were many other books that +were once considered sacred that have been thrown away, and that +nobody knows who wrote a solitary line of the New Testament. + +Besides all this, Dr. Briggs knows that the Old and New Testaments +are filled with interpolations, and he knows that the passages of +Scripture which have been taken as the foundation stones for creeds, +were written hundreds of years after the death of Christ. He knows +well enough that Christ never said: "I came not to bring peace, +but a sword." He knows that the same being never said: "Thou art +Peter, and on this rock will I build my church." He knows, too, +that Christ never said: "Whosoever believes shall be saved, and +whosoever believes not shall be damned." He knows that these were +interpolations. He knows that the sin against the Holy Ghost is +another interpolation. He knows, if he knows anything, that the +gospel according to John was written long after the rest, and that +nearly all of the poison and superstition of orthodoxy is in that +book. He knows also, if he knows anything, that St. Paul never +read one of the four gospels. + +Knowing all these things, Dr. Briggs has had the honesty to say +that there was some trouble about taking the Bible as absolutely +inspired in word and punctuation. I do not think, however, that +he can maintain his own position and still remain a Presbyterian +or anything like a Presbyterian. He takes the ground, I believe, +that there are three sources of knowledge: First, the Bible; +second, the church; third, reason. It seems to me that reason +should come first, because if you say the Bible is a source of +authority, why do you say it? Do you say this because your reason +is convinced that it is? If so, then reason is the foundation of +that belief. If, again, you say the church is a source of authority, +why do you say so? It must be because its history convinces your +reason that it is. Consequently, the foundation of that idea is +reason. At the bottom of this pyramid must be reason, and no man +is under any obligation to believe that which is unreasonable to +him. He may believe things that he cannot prove, but he does not +believe them because they are unreasonable. He believes them +because he thinks they are not unreasonable, not impossible, not +improbable. But, after all, reason is the crucible in which every +fact must be placed, and the result fixes the belief of the +intelligent man. + +It seems to me that the whole Presbyterian creed must come down +together. It is a scheme based upon certain facts, so-called. +There is in it the fall of man. There is in it the scheme of the +atonement, and there is the idea of hell, eternal punishment, and +the idea of heaven, eternal reward; and yet, according to their +creed, hell is not a punishment and heaven is not a reward. Now, +if we do away with the fall of man we do away with the atonement; +then we do away with all supernatural religion. Then we come back +to human reason. Personally, I hope that the Presbyterian Church +will be advanced enough and splendid enough to be honest, and if +it is honest, all the gentlemen who amount to anything, who assist +in the trial of Dr. Briggs, will in all probability agree with him, +and he will be acquitted. But if they throw aside their reason, +and remain blindly orthodox, then he will be convicted. To me it +is simply miraculous that any man should imagine that the Bible is +the source of truth. There was a time when all scientific facts +were measured by the Bible. That time is past, and now the believers +in the Bible are doing their best to convince us that it is in +harmony with science. In other words, I have lived to see a change +of standards. When I was a boy, science was measured by the Bible. +Now the Bible is measured by science. This is an immense step. +So it is impossible for me to conceive what kind of a mind a man +has, who finds in the history of the church the fact that it has +been a source of truth. How can any one come to the conclusion +that the Catholic Church has been a source of truth, a source of +intellectual light? How can anyone believe that the church of John +Calvin has been a source of truth? If its creed is not true, if +its doctrines are mistakes, if its dogmas are monstrous delusions, +how can it be said to have been a source of truth? + +My opinion is that Dr. Briggs will not be satisfied with the step +he has taken. He has turned his face a little toward the light. +The farther he walks the harder it will be for him to turn back. +The probability is that the orthodox will turn him out, and the +process of driving out men of thought and men of genius will go on +until the remnant will be as orthodox as they are stupid. + +_Question_. Do you think mankind is drifting away from the +supernatural? + +_Answer_. My belief is that the supernatural has had its day. +The church must either change or abdicate. That is to say, it must +keep step with the progress of the world or be trampled under foot. +The church as a power has ceased to exist. To-day it is a matter +of infinite indifference what the pulpit thinks unless there comes +the voice of heresy from the sacred place. Every orthodox minister +in the United States is listened to just in proportion that he +preaches heresy. The real, simon-pure, orthodox clergyman delivers +his homilies to empty benches, and to a few ancient people who know +nothing of the tides and currents of modern thought. The orthodox +pulpit to-day has no thought, and the pews are substantially in +the same condition. There was a time when the curse of the church +whitened the face of a race, but now its anathema is the food of +laughter. + +_Question_. What, in your judgment, is to be the outcome of the +present agitation in religious circles? + +_Answer_. My idea is that people more and more are declining the +postponement of happiness to another world. The general tendency +is to enjoy the present. All religions have taught men that the +pleasures of this world are of no account; that they are nothing +but husks and rags and chaff and disappointment; that whoever +expects to be happy in this world makes a mistake; that there is +nothing on the earth worth striving for; that the principal business +of mankind should be to get ready to be happy in another world; +that the great occupation is to save your soul, and when you get +it saved, when you are satisfied that you are one of the elect, +then pack up all your worldly things in a very small trunk, take +it to the dock of time that runs out into the ocean of eternity, +sit down on it, and wait for the ship of death. And of course each +church is the only one that sells a through ticket which can be +depended on. In all religions, as far as I know, is an admixture +of asceticism, and the greater the quantity, the more beautiful +the religion has been considered, The tendency of the world to- +day is to enjoy life while you have it; it is to get something out +of the present moment; and we have found that there are things +worth living for even in this world. We have found that a man can +enjoy himself with wife and children; that he can be happy in the +acquisition of knowledge; that he can be very happy in assisting +others; in helping those he loves; that there is some joy in poetry, +in science and in the enlargement and development of the mind; that +there is some delight in music and in the drama and in the arts. +We are finding, poor as the world is, that it beats a promise the +fulfillment of which is not to take place until after death. The +world is also finding out another thing, and that is that the +gentlemen who preach these various religions, and promise these +rewards, and threaten the punishments, know nothing whatever of +the subject; that they are as blindly ignorant as the people they +pretend to teach, and the people are as blindly ignorant as the +animals below them. We have finally concluded that no human being +has the slightest conception of origin or of destiny, and that this +life, not only in its commencement but in its end, is just as +mysterious to-day as it was to the first man whose eyes greeted +the rising sun. We are no nearer the solution of the problem than +those who lived thousands of years before us, and we are just as +near it as those who will live millions of years after we are dead. +So many people having arrived at the conclusion that nobody knows +and that nobody can know, like sensible folks they have made up +their minds to enjoy life. I have often said, and I say again, +that I feel as if I were on a ship not knowing the port from which +it sailed, not knowing the harbor to which it was going, not having +a speaking acquaintance with any of the officers, and I have made +up my mind to have as good a time with the other passengers as +possible under the circumstances. If this ship goes down in mid- +sea I have at least made something, and if it reaches a harbor of +perpetual delight I have lost nothing, and I have had a happy +voyage. And I think millions and millions are agreeing with me. + +Now, understand, I am not finding fault with any of these religions +or with any of these ministers. These religions and these ministers +are the necessary and natural products of sufficient causes. +Mankind has traveled from barbarism to what we now call civilization, +by many paths, all of which under the circumstances, were absolutely +necessary; and while I think the individual does as he must, I +think the same of the church, of the corporation, and of the nation, +and not only of the nation, but of the whole human race. Consequently +I have no malice and no prejudices. I have likes and dislikes. +I do not blame a gourd for not being a cantaloupe, but I like +cantaloupes. So I do not blame the old hard-shell Presbyterian +for not being a philosopher, but I like philosophers. So to wind +it all up with regard to the tendency of modern thought, or as to +the outcome of what you call religion, my own belief is that what +is known as religion will disappear from the human mind. And by +"religion" I mean the supernatural. By "religion" I mean living +in this world for another, or living in this world to gratify some +supposed being, whom we never saw and about whom we know nothing, +and of whose existence we know nothing. In other words, religion +consists of the duties we are supposed to owe to the first great +cause, and of certain things necessary for us to do here to insure +happiness hereafter. These ideas, in my judgment, are destined to +perish, and men will become convinced that all their duties are +within their reach, and that obligations can exist only between +them and other sentient beings. Another idea, I think, will force +itself upon the mind, which is this: That he who lives the best +for this world lives the best for another if there be one. In +other words, humanity will take the place of what is called +"religion." Science will displace superstition, and to do justice +will be the ambition of man. + +My creed is this: Happiness is the only good. The place to be +happy is here. The time to be happy is now. The way to be happy +is to make others so. + +_Question_. What is going to take the place of the pulpit? + +_Answer_. I have for a long time wondered why somebody didn't +start a church on a sensible basis. My idea is this: There are, +of course, in every community, lawyers, doctors, merchants, and +people of all trades and professions who have not the time during +the week to pay any particular attention to history, poetry, art, +or song. Now, it seems to me that it would be a good thing to have +a church and for these men to employ a man of ability, of talent, +to preach to them Sundays, and let this man say to his congregation: +"Now, I am going to preach to you for the first few Sundays--eight +or ten or twenty, we will say--on the art, poetry, and intellectual +achievements of the Greeks." Let this man study all the week and +tell his congregation Sunday what he has ascertained. Let him give +to his people the history of such men as Plato, as Socrates, what +they did; of Aristotle, of his philosophy; of the great Greeks, +their statesmen, their poets, actors, and sculptors, and let him +show the debt that modern civilization owes to these people. Let +him, too, give their religions, their mythology--a mythology that +has sown the seed of beauty in every land. Then let him take up +Rome. Let him show what a wonderful and practical people they +were; let him give an idea of their statesmen, orators, poets, +lawyers--because probably the Romans were the greatest lawyers. +And so let him go through with nation after nation, biography after +biography, and at the same time let there be a Sunday school +connected with this church where the children shall be taught +something of importance. For instance, teach them botany, and when +a Sunday is fair, clear, and beautiful, let them go into the fields +and woods with their teachers, and in a little while they will +become acquainted with all kinds of tress and shrubs and flowering +plants. They could also be taught entomology, so that every bug +would be interesting, for they would see the facts in science-- +something of use to them. I believe that such a church and such +a Sunday school would at the end of a few years be the most +intelligent collection of people in the United States. To teach +the children all of these things and to teach their parents, too, +the outlines of every science, so that every listener would know +something of geology, something of astronomy, so that every member +could tell the manner in which they find the distance of a star-- +how much better that would be than the old talk about Abraham, +Isaac, and Jacob, and quotations from Haggai and Zephaniah, and +all this eternal talk about the fall of man and the Garden of Eden, +and the flood, and the atonement, and the wonders of Revelation! +Even if the religious scheme be true, it can be told and understood +as well in one day as in a hundred years. The church says, "He +that hath ears to hear let him hear." I say: "He that hath brains +to think, let him think." So, too, the pulpit is being displaced +by what we call places of amusement, which are really places where +men go because they find there is something which satisfies in a +greater or less degree the hunger of the brain. Never before was +the theatre as popular as it is now. Never before was so much +money lavished upon the stage as now. Very few men having their +choice would go to hear a sermon, especially of the orthodox kind, +when they had a chance to see a great actor. + +The man must be a curious combination who would prefer an orthodox +sermon, we will say, to a concert given by Theodore Thomas. And +I may say in passing that I have great respect for Theodore Thomas, +because it was he who first of all opened to the American people +the golden gates of music. He made the American people acquainted +with the great masters, and especially with Wagner, and it is a +debt that we shall always owe him. In this day the opera--that is +to say, music in every form--is tending to displace the pulpit. +The pulpits have to go in partnership with music now. Hundreds of +people have excused themselves to me for going to church, saying +they have splendid music. Long ago the Catholic Church was forced +to go into partnership not only with music, but with painting and +with architecture. The Protestant Church for a long time thought +it could do without these beggarly elements, and the Protestant +Church was simply a dry-goods box with a small steeple on top of +it, its walls as bleak and bare and unpromising as the creed. But +even Protestants have been forced to hire a choir of ungodly people +who happen to have beautiful voices, and they, too, have appealed +to the organ. Music is taking the place of creed, and there is +more real devotional feeling summoned from the temple of the mind +by great music than by any sermon ever delivered. Music, of all +other things, gives wings to thought and allows the soul to rise +above all the pains and troubles of this life, and to feel for a +moment as if it were absolutely free, above all clouds, destined +to enjoy forever. So, too, science is beckoning with countless +hands. Men of genius are everywhere beckoning men to discoveries, +promising them fortunes compared with which Aladdin's lamp was weak +and poor. All these things take men from the church; take men from +the pulpit. In other words, prosperity is the enemy of the pulpit. +When men enjoy life, when they are prosperous here, they are in +love with the arts, with the sciences, with everything that gives +joy, with everything that promises plenty, and they care nothing +about the prophecies of evil that fall from the solemn faces of +the parsons. They look in other directions. They are not thinking +about the end of the world. They hate the lugubrious, and they +enjoy the sunshine of to-day. And this, in my judgment, is the +highest philosophy: First, do not regret having lost yesterday; +second, do not fear that you will lose to-morrow; third, enjoy to- +day. + +Astrology was displaced by astronomy. Alchemy and the black art +gave way to chemistry. Science is destined to take the place of +superstition. In my judgment, the religion of the future will be +Reason. + +--_The Tribune_, Chicago, Illinois, November, 1891. + + +WOMAN SUFFRAGE, HORSE RACING, AND MONEY. + +_Question_. What are your opinions on the woman's suffrage +question? + +_Answer_. I claim no right that I am not willing to give to my +wife and daughters, and to the wives and daughters of other men. +We shall never have a generation of great men until we have a +generation of great women. I do not regard ignorance as the +foundation of virtue, or uselessness as one of the requisites of +a lady. I am a believer in equal rights. Those who are amenable +to the laws should have a voice in making the laws. In every +department where woman has had an equal opportunity with man, she +has shown that she has equal capacity. + +George Sand was a great writer, George Eliot one of the greatest, +Mrs. Browning a marvelous poet--and the lyric beauty of her "Mother +and Poet" is greater than anything her husband ever wrote--Harriet +Martineau a wonderful woman, and Ouida is probably the greatest +living novelist, man or woman. Give the women a chance. + +[The Colonel's recent election as a life member of the Manhattan +Athletic Club, due strangely enough to a speech of his denouncing +certain forms of sport, was referred to, and this led him to express +his contempt for prize-fighting, and then he said on the subject of +horse-racing: ] + +The only objection I have to horse racing is its cruelty. The whip +and spur should be banished from the track. As long as these are +used, the race track will breed a very low and heartless set of +men. I hate to see a brute whip and spur a noble animal. The good +people object to racing, because of the betting, but bad people, +like myself, object to the cruelty. Men are not forced to bet. +That is their own business, but the poor horse, straining every +nerve, does not ask for the lash and iron. Abolish torture on the +track and let the best horse win. + +_Question_. What do you think of the Chilian insult to the United +States flag? + +_Answer_. In the first place, I think that our Government was +wrong in taking the part of Balmaceda. In the next place, we made +a mistake in seizing the Itata. America should always side with +the right. We should care nothing for the pretender in power, and +Balmaceda was a cruel, tyrannical scoundrel. We should be with +the people everywhere. I do not blame Chili for feeling a little +revengeful. We ought to remember that Chili is weak, and nations, +like individuals, are sensitive in proportion that they are weak. +Let us trust Chili just as we would England. We are too strong to +be unjust. + +_Question_. How do you stand on the money question? + +_Answer_. I am with the Republican party on the question of money. +I am for the use of gold and silver both, but I want a dollar's +worth of silver in a silver dollar. I do not believe in light money, +or in cheap money, or in poor money. These are all contradictions +in terms. Congress cannot fix the value of money. The most it +can do is to fix its debt paying power. It is beyond the power of +any Congress to fix the purchasing value of what it may be pleased +to call money. Nobody knows, so far as I know, why people want +gold. I do not know why people want silver. I do not know how +gold came to be money; neither do I understand the universal desire, +but it exists, and we take things as we find them. Gold and silver +make up, you may say, the money of the world, and I believe in +using the two metals. I do not believe in depreciating any American +product; but as value cannot be absolutely fixed by law, so far as +the purchasing power is concerned, and as the values of gold and +silver vary, neither being stable any more than the value of wheat +or corn is stable, I believe that legislation should keep pace +within a reasonable distance at least, of the varying values, and +that the money should be kept as nearly equal as possible. Of +course, there is one trouble with money to-day, and that is the +use of the word "dollar." It has lost its meaning. So many +governments have adulterated their own coin, and as many have +changed weights, that the word "dollar" has not to-day an absolute, +definite, specific meaning. Like individuals, nations have been +dishonest. The only time the papal power had the right to coin +money--I believe it was under Pius IX., when Antonelli was his +minister--the coin of the papacy was so debased that even orthodox +Catholics refused to take it, and it had to be called in and minted +by the French Empire, before even the Italians recognized it as +money. My own opinion is, that either the dollar must be absolutely +defined--it must be the world over so many grains of pure gold, or +so many grains of pure silver--or we must have other denominations +for our money, as for instance, ounces, or parts of ounces, and +the time will come, in my judgment, when there will be a money of +the world, the same everywhere; because each coin will contain +upon its face the certificate of a government that it contains such +a weight--so many grains or so many ounces--of a certain metal. +I, for one, want the money of the United States to be as good as +that of any other country. I want its gold and silver exactly what +they purport to be; and I want the paper issued by the Government +to be the same as gold. I want its credit so perfectly established +that it will be taken in every part of the habitable globe. I am +with the Republican party on the question of money, also on the +question of protection, and all I hope is that the people of this +country will have sense enough to defend their own interests. + +--_The Inter-Ocean_, Chicago, Illinois, October 27, 1891. + + +MISSIONARIES. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of foreign missions? + +_Answer_. In the first place, there seems to be a pretty good +opening in this country for missionary work. We have a good many +Indians who are not Methodists. I have never known one to be +converted. A good many have been killed by Christians, but their +souls have not been saved. Maybe the Methodists had better turn +their attention to the heathen of our own country. Then we have +a good many Mormons who rely on the truth of the Old Testament and +follow the example of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It seems to me +that the Methodists better convert the Mormons before attacking +the tribes of Central Africa. There is plenty of work to be done +right here. A few good bishops might be employed for a time in +converting Dr. Briggs and Professor Swing, to say nothing of other +heretical Presbyterians. + +There is no need of going to China to convert the Chinese. There +are thousands of them here. In China our missionaries will tell +the followers of Confucius about the love and forgiveness of +Christians, and when the Chinese come here they are robbed, assaulted, +and often murdered. Would it not be a good thing for the Methodists +to civilize our own Christians to such a degree that they would +not murder a man simply because he belongs to another race and +worships other gods? + +So, too, I think it would be a good thing for the Methodists to go +South and persuade their brethren in that country to treat the +colored people with kindness. A few efforts might be made to +convert the "White-caps" in Ohio, Indiana and some other States. + +My advice to the Methodists is to do what little good they can +right here and now. It seems cruel to preach to the heathen a +gospel that is dying out even here, and fill their poor minds with +the absurd dogmas and cruel creeds that intelligent men have outgrown +and thrown away. + +Honest commerce will do a thousand times more good than all the +missionaries on earth. I do not believe that an intelligent Chinaman +or an intelligent Hindoo has ever been or ever will be converted +into a Methodist. If Methodism is good we need it here, and if it +is not good, do not fool the heathen with it. + +--_The Press_, Cleveland, Ohio, November 12, 1891. + + +MY BELIEF AND UNBELIEF.* + +[* Col. Robert G. Ingersoll was in Toledo for a few hours yesterday +afternoon on railroad business. Whatever Mr. Ingersoll says is +always read with interest, for besides the independence of his +averments, his ideas are worded in a way that in itself is attractive. + +While in the court room talking with some of the officials and +others, he was saying that in this world there is rather an unequal +distribution of comforts, rewards, and punishments. For himself, +he had fared pretty well. He stated that during the thirty years +he has been married there have been fifteen to twenty of his +relatives under the same roof, but never had there been in his +family a death or a night's loss of sleep on account of sickness. + +"The Lord has been pretty good to you," suggested Marshall Wade. + +"Well, I've been pretty good to him," he answered.] + +_Question_. I have heard people in discussing yourself and your +views, express the belief that way down in the depths of your mind +you are not altogether a "disbeliever." Are they in any sense +correct? + +_Answer_. I am an unbeliever, and I am a believer. I do not +believe in the miraculous, the supernatural, or the impossible. +I do not believe in the "Mosaic" account of the creation, or in +the flood, or the Tower of Babel, or that General Joshua turned +back the sun or stopped the earth. I do not believe in the Jonah +story, or that God and the Devil troubled poor Job. Neither do I +believe in the Mt. Sinai business, and I have my doubts about the +broiled quails furnished in the wilderness. Neither do I believe +that man is wholly depraved. I have not the least faith in the +Eden, snake and apple story. Neither do I believe that God is an +eternal jailer; that he is going to be the warden of an everlasting +penitentiary in which the most of men are to be eternally tormented. +I do not believe that any man can be justly punished or rewarded +on account of his belief. + +But I do believe in the nobility of human nature. I believe in +love and home, and kindness and humanity. I believe in good +fellowship and cheerfulness, in making wife and children happy. +I believe in good nature, in giving to others all the rights that +you claim for yourself. I believe in free thought, in reason, +observation and experience. I believe in self-reliance and in +expressing your honest thought. I have hope for the whole human +race. What will happen to one, will, I hope, happen to all, and +that, I hope, will be good. Above all, I believe in Liberty. + +--_The Blade_, Toledo, Ohio, January 9, 1892. + + +MUST RELIGION GO? + +_Question_. What is your idea as to the difference between honest +belief, as held by honest religious thinkers, and heterodoxy? + +_Answer_. Of course, I believe that there are thousands of men +and women who honestly believe not only in the improbable, not only +in the absurd, but in the impossible. Heterodoxy, so-called, +occupies the half-way station between superstition and reason. A +heretic is one who is still dominated by religion, but in the east +of whose mind there is a dawn. He is one who has seen the morning +star; he has not entire confidence in the day, and imagines in some +way that even the light he sees was born of the night. In the mind +of the heretic, darkness and light are mingled, the ties of +intellectual kindred bind him to the night, and yet he has enough +of the spirit of adventure to look toward the east. Of course, I +admit that Christians and heretics are both honest; a real Christian +must be honest and a real heretic must be the same. All men must +be honest in what they think; but all men are not honest in what +they say. In the invisible world of the mind every man is honest. +The judgment never was bribed. Speech may be false, but conviction +is always honest. So that the difference between honest belief, +as shared by honest religious thinkers and heretics, is a difference +of intelligence. It is the difference between a ship lashed to +the dock, and on making a voyage; it is the difference between +twilight and dawn--that is to say, the coming of the sight and the +coming of the morning. + +_Question_. Are women becoming freed from the bonds of sectarianism? + +_Answer_. Women are less calculating than men. As a rule they do +not occupy the territory of compromise. They are natural extremists. +The woman who is not dominated by superstition is apt to be absolutely +free, and when a woman has broken the shackles of superstition, +she has no apprehension, no fears. She feels that she is on the +open sea, and she cares neither for wind nor wave. An emancipated +woman never can be re-enslaved. Her heart goes with her opinions, +and goes first. + +_Question_. Do you consider that the influence of religion is +better than the influence of Liberalism upon society, that is to +say, is society less or more moral, is vice more or less +conspicuous? + +_Answer_. Whenever a chain is broken an obligation takes its place. +There is and there can be no responsibility without liberty. The +freer a man is, the more responsible, the more accountable he feels; +consequently the more liberty there is, the more morality there +is. Believers in religion teach us that God will reward men for +good actions, but men who are intellectually free, know that the +reward of a good action cannot be given by any power, but that it +is the natural result of the good action. The free man, guided by +intelligence, knows that his reward is in the nature of things, +and not in the caprice even of the Infinite. He is not a good and +faithful servant, he is an intelligent free man. + +The vicious are ignorant; real morality is the child of intelligence; +the free and intelligent man knows that every action must be judged +by its consequences; he knows that if he does good he reaps a good +harvest; he knows that if he does evil he bears a burden, and he +knows that these good and evil consequences are not determined by +an infinite master, but that they live in and are produced by the +actions themselves. + +--_Evening Advertiser_, New York, February 6, 1892. + + +WORD PAINTING AND COLLEGE EDUCATION. + +_Question_. What is the history of the speech delivered here in +1876? Was it extemporaneous? + +_Answer_. It was not born entirely of the occasion. It took me +several years to put the thoughts in form--to paint the pictures +with words. No man can do his best on the instant. Iron to be +beaten into perfect form has to be heated several times and turned +upon the anvil many more, and hammered long and often. + +You might as well try to paint a picture with one sweep of the +brush, or chisel a statue with one stroke, as to paint many pictures +with words, without great thought and care. Now and then, while +a man is talking, heated with his subject, a great thought, sudden +as a flash of lightning, illumines the intellectual sky, and a +great sentence clothed in words of purple, falls, or rather rushes, +from his lips--but a continuous flight is born, not only of +enthusiasm, but of long and careful thought. A perfect picture +requires more details, more lights and shadows, than the mind can +grasp at once, or on the instant. Thoughts are not born of chance. +They grow and bud and blossom, and bear the fruit of perfect form. + +Genius is the soil and climate, but the soil must be cultivated, +and the harvest is not instantly after the planting. It takes time +and labor to raise and harvest a crop from that field called the +brain. + +_Question_. Do you think young men need a college education to +get along? + +_Answer_. Probably many useless things are taught in colleges. +I think, as a rule, too much time is wasted learning the names of +the cards without learning to play a game. I think a young man +should be taught something that he can use--something he can sell. +After coming from college he should be better equipped to battle +with the world--to do something of use. A man may have his brain +stuffed with Greek and Latin without being able to fill his stomach +with anything of importance. Still, I am in favor of the highest +education. I would like to see splendid schools in every State, +and then a university, and all scholars passing a certain examination +sent to the State university free, and then a United States +university, the best in the world, and all graduates of the State +universities passing a certain examination sent to the United States +university free. We ought to have in this country the best library, +the best university, the best school of design in the world; and +so I say, more money for the mind. + +_Question_. Was the peculiar conduct of the Rev. Dr. Parkhurst, +of New York, justifiable, and do you think that it had a tendency +to help morality? + +_Answer_. If Christ had written a decoy letter to the woman to +whom he said: "Go and sin no more," and if he had disguised himself +and visited her house and had then lodged a complaint against her +before the police and testified against her, taking one of his +disciples with him, I do not think he would have added to his +reputation. + +--_The News_, Indianapolis, Indiana, February 18, 1892. + + +PERSONAL MAGNETISM AND THE SUNDAY QUESTION. + +[Colonel Ingersoll was a picturesque figure as he sat in his room +at the Gibson House yesterday, while the balmy May breeze blew +through the open windows, fluttered the lace curtains and tossed +the great Infidel's snowy hair to and fro. The Colonel had come in +from New York during the morning and the keen white sunlight of a +lovely May day filled his heart with gladness. After breakfast, +the man who preaches the doctrine of the Golden Rule and the Gospel +of Humanity and the while chaffs the gentlemen of the clerical +profession, was in a fine humor. He was busy with cards and callers, +but not too busy to admire the vase full of freshly-picked spring +flowers that stood on the mantel, and wrestled with clouds of cigar +smoke, to see which fragrance should dominate the atmosphere. + +To a reporter of _The Commercial Gazette_, the Colonel spoke freely +and interestingly upon a variety of subjects, from personal magnetism +in politics to mob rule in Tennessee. He had been interested in +Colonel Weir's statement about the lack of gas in Exposition Hall, +at the 1876 convention, and when asked if he believed there was +any truth in the stories that the gas supply had been manipulated +so as to prevent the taking of a ballot after he had placed James +G. Blaine in nomination, he replied: ] + +All I can say is, that I heard such a story the day after the +convention, but I do not know whether or not it is true. I have +always believed, that if a vote had been taken that evening, Blaine +would have been nominated, possibly not as the effect of my speech, +but the night gave time for trafficking, and that is always dangerous +in a convention. I believed then that Blaine ought to have been +nominated, and that it would have been a very wise thing for the +party to have done. That he was not the candidate was due partly +to accident and partly to political traffic, but that is one of +the bygones, and I believe there is an old saying to the effect +that even the gods have no mastery over the past. + +_Question_. Do you think that eloquence is potent in a convention +to set aside the practical work of politics and politicians? + +_Answer_. I think that all the eloquence in the world cannot affect +a trade if the parties to the contract stand firm, and when people +have made a political trade they are not the kind of people to be +affected by eloquence. The practical work of the world has very +little to do with eloquence. There are a great many thousand stone +masons to one sculptor, and houses and walls are not constructed +by sculptors, but by masons. The daily wants of the world are +supplied by the practical workers, by men of talent, not by men of +genius, although in the world of invention, genius has done more, +it may be, than the workers themselves. I fancy the machinery now +in the world does the work of many hundreds of millions; that there +is machinery enough now to do several times the work that could be +done by all the men, women and children of the earth. The genius +who invented the reaper did more work and will do more work in the +harvest field than thousands of millions of men, and the same may +be said of the great engines that drive the locomotives and the +ships. All these marvelous machines were made by men of genius, +but they are not the men who in fact do the work. + +[This led the Colonel to pay a brilliant tribute to the great +orators of ancient and modern times, the peer of all of them being +Cicero. He dissected and defined oratory and eloquence, and +explained with picturesque figures, wherein the difference between +them lay. As he mentioned the magnetism of public speakers, he was +asked as to his opinion of the value of personal magnetism in +political life.] + +It may be difficult to define what personal magnetism is, but I +think it may be defined in this way: You don't always feel like +asking a man whom you meet on the street what direction you should +take to reach a certain point. You often allow three or four to +pass, before you meet one who seems to invite the question. So, +too, there are men by whose side you may sit for hours in the cars +without venturing a remark as to the weather, and there are others +to whom you will commence talking the moment you sit down. There +are some men who look as if they would grant a favor, men toward +whom you are unconsciously drawn, men who have a real human look, +men with whom you seem to be acquainted almost before you speak, +and that you really like before you know anything about them. It +may be that we are all electric batteries; that we have our positive +and our negative poles; it may be that we need some influence that +certain others impart, and it may be that certain others have that +which we do not need and which we do not want, and the moment you +think that, you feel annoyed and hesitate, and uncomfortable, and +possibly hateful. + +I suppose there is a physical basis for everything. Possibly the +best test of real affection between man and woman, or of real +friendship between man and woman, is that they can sit side by +side, for hours maybe, without speaking, and yet be having a really +social time, each feeling that the other knows exactly what they +are thinking about. Now, the man you meet and whom you would not +hesitate a moment to ask a favor of, is what I call a magnetic man. +This magnetism, or whatever it may be, assists in making friends, +and of course is a great help to any one who deals with the public. +Men like a magnetic man even without knowing him, perhaps simply +having seen him. There are other men, whom the moment you shake +hands with them, you feel you want no more; you have had enough. +A sudden chill runs up the arm the moment your hand touches theirs, +and finally reaches the heart; you feel, if you had held that hand +a moment longer, an icicle would have formed in the brain. Such +people lack personal magnetism. These people now and then thaw +out when you get thoroughly acquainted with them, and you find that +the ice is all on the outside, and then you come to like them very +well, but as a rule first impressions are lasting. Magnetism is +what you might call the climate of a man. Some men, and some women, +look like a perfect June day, and there are others who, while the +look quite smiling, yet you feel that the sky is becoming overcast, +and the signs all point to an early storm. There are people who +are autumnal--that is to say, generous. They have had their harvest, +and have plenty to spare. Others look like the end of an exceedingly +hard winter--between the hay and grass, the hay mostly gone and +the grass not yet come up. So you will see that I think a great +deal of this thing that is called magnetism. As I said, there are +good people who are not magnetic, but I do not care to make an +Arctic expedition for the purpose of discovering the north pole of +their character. I would rather stay with those who make me feel +comfortable at the first. + +[From personal magnetism to the lynching Saturday morning down at +Nashville, Tennessee, was a far cry, but when Colonel Ingersoll +was asked what he thought of mob law, whether there was any +extenuation, any propriety and moral effect resultant from it, he +quickly answered: ] + +I do not believe in mob law at any time, among any people. I +believe in justice being meted out in accordance with the forms of +law. If a community violates that law, why should not the individual? +The example is bad. Besides all that, no punishment inflicted by +a mob tends to prevent the commission of crime. Horrible punishment +hardens the community, and that in itself produces more crime. + +There seems to be a sort of fascination in frightful punishments, +but, to say the least of it, all these things demoralize the +community. In some countries, you know, they whip people for petty +offences. The whipping, however, does no good, and on the other +hand it does harm; it hardens those who administer the punishment +and those who witness it, and it degrades those who receive it. +There will be but little charity in the world, and but little +progress until men see clearly that there is no chance in the world +of conduct any more than in the physical world. + +Back of every act and dream and thought and desire and virtue and +crime is the efficient cause. If you wish to change mankind, you +must change the conditions. There should be no such thing as +punishment. We should endeavor to reform men, and those who cannot +be reformed should be placed where they cannot injure their fellows. +The State should never take revenge any more than the community +should form itself into a mob and take revenge. This does harm, +not good. The time will come when the world will no more think of +sending men to the penitentiary for stealing, as a punishment, that +it will for sending a man to the penitentiary because he has +consumption. When that time comes, the object will be to reform +men; to prevent crime instead of punishing it, and the object then +will be to make the conditions such that honest people will be the +result, but as long as hundreds of thousands of human beings live +in tenements, as long as babes are raised in gutters, as long as +competition is so sharp that hundreds of thousands must of necessity +be failures, just so long as society gets down on its knees before +the great and successful thieves, before the millionaire thieves, +just so long will it have to fill the jails and prisons with the +little thieves. When the "good time" comes, men will not be judged +by the money they have accumulated, but by the uses they make of +it. So men will be judged, not according to their intelligence, +but by what they are endeavoring to accomplish with their intelligence. +In other words, the time will come when character will rise above +all. There is a great line in Shakespeare that I have often quoted, +and that cannot be quoted too often: "There is no darkness but +ignorance." Let the world set itself to work to dissipate this +darkness; let us flood the world with intellectual light. This +cannot be accomplished by mobs or lynchers. It must be done by +the noblest, by the greatest, and by the best. + +[The conversation shifting around to the Sunday question; the +opening of the World's Fair on Sunday, the attacks of the pulpit +upon the Sunday newspapers, the opening of parks and museums and +libraries on Sunday, Colonel Ingersoll waxed eloquent, and in answer +to many questions uttered these paragraphs: ] + +Of course, people will think that I have some prejudice against +the parsons, but really I think the newspaper press is of far more +importance in the world than the pulpit. If I should admit in a +kind of burst of generosity, and simply for the sake of making a +point, that the pulpit can do some good, how much can it do without +the aid of the press? Here is a parson preaching to a few ladies +and enough men, it may be, to pass the contribution box, and all +he says dies within the four walls of that church. How many +ministers would it take to reform the world, provided I again admit +in a burst of generosity, that there is any reforming power in what +they preach, working along that line? + +The Sunday newspaper, I think, is the best of any day in the week. +That paper keeps hundreds and thousands at home. You can find in +it information about almost everything in the world. One of the +great Sunday papers will keep a family busy reading almost all day. +Now, I do not wonder that the ministers are so opposed to the Sunday +newspaper, and so they are opposed to anything calculated to decrease +the attendance at church. Why, they want all the parks, all the +museums, all the libraries closed on Sunday, and they want the +World's Fair closed on Sunday. + +Now, I am in favor of Sunday; in fact, I am perfectly willing to +have two of them a week, but I want Sunday as a day of recreation +and pleasure. The fact is we ought not to work hard enough during +the week to require a day of rest. Every day ought to be so arranged +that there would be time for rest from the labor of that day. +Sunday is a good day to get business out of your mind, to forget +the ledger and the docket and the ticker, to forget profits and +losses, and enjoy yourself. It is a good day to go to the art +museums, to look at pictures and statues and beautiful things, so +that you may feel that there is something in this world besides +money and mud. It is a good day, is Sunday, to go to the libraries +and spend a little time with the great and splendid dead, and to +go to the cemetery and think of those who are sleeping there, and +to give a little thought to the time when you, too, like them, will +fall asleep. I think it is a good day for almost anything except +going to church. There is no need of that; everybody knows the +story, and if a man has worked hard all the week, you can hardly +call it recreation if he goes to church Sunday and hears that his +chances are ninety-nine in a hundred in favor of being eternally +damned. + +So it is I am in favor of having the World's Fair open on Sunday. +It will be a good day to look at the best the world has produced; +a good day to leave the saloons and commune for a little while with +the mighty spirits that have glorified this world. Sunday is a +good day to leave the churches, where they teach that man has become +totally depraved, and look at the glorious things that have been +wrought by these depraved beings. Besides all this, it is the day +of days for the working man and working woman, for those who have +to work all the week. In New York an attempt was made to open the +Metropolitan Museum of Art on Sunday, and the pious people opposed +it. They thought it would interfere with the joy of heaven if +people were seen in the park enjoying themselves on Sunday, and +they also held that nobody would visit the Museum if it were opened +on Sunday; that the "common people" had no love for pictures and +statues and cared nothing about art. The doors were opened, and +it was demonstrated that the poor people, the toilers and workers, +did want to see such things on Sunday, and now more people visit +the Museum on Sunday than on all the other days of the week put +together. The same is true of the public libraries. There is +something to me infinitely pharisaical, hypocritical and farcical +in this Sunday nonsense. The rich people who favor keeping Sunday +"holy," have their coachman drive them to church and wait outside +until the services end. What do they care about the coachman's +soul? While they are at church their cooks are busy at home getting +dinner ready. What do they care for the souls of cooks? The whole +thing is pretence, and nothing but pretence. It is the instinct +of business. It is the competition of the gospel shop with other +shops and places of resort. + +The ministers, of course, are opposed to all shows except their +own, for they know that very few will come to see or hear them and +the choice must be the church or nothing. + +I do not believe that one day can be more holy than another unless +more joyous than another. The holiest day is the happiest day-- +the day on which wives and children and men are happiest. In that +sense a day can be holy. + +Our idea of the Sabbath is from the Puritans, and they imagined +that a man has to be miserable in order to excite the love of God. +We have outgrown the old New England Sabbath--the old Scotch horror. +The Germans have helped us and have set a splendid example. I do +not see how a poor workingman can go to church for recreation--I +mean an orthodox church. A man who has hell here cannot be benefitted +by being assured that he is likely to have hell hereafter. The +whole business I hold in perfect abhorrence. + +They tell us that God will not prosper us unless we observe the +Sabbath. The Jews kept the Sabbath and yet Jehovah deserted them, +and they are a people without a nation. The Scotch kept Sunday; +they are not independent. The French never kept Sunday, and yet +they are the most prosperous nation in Europe. + +--_Commercial Gazette_, Cincinnati, Ohio, May 2, 1892. + + +AUTHORS. + +_Question_. Who, in your opinion, is the greatest novelist who +has written in the English language? + +_Answer_. The greatest novelist, in my opinion, who has ever +written in the English language, was Charles Dickens. He was the +greatest observer since Shakespeare. He had the eyes that see, +the ears that really hear. I place him above Thackeray. Dickens +wrote for the home, for the great public. Thackeray wrote for the +clubs. The greatest novel in our language--and it may be in any +other--is, according to my ideas, "A Tale of Two Cities." In that, +are philosophy, pathos, self-sacrifice, wit, humor, the grotesque +and the tragic. I think it is the most artistic novel that I have +read. The creations of Dickens' brain have become the citizens of +the world. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of American writers? + +_Answer_. I think Emerson was a fine writer, and he did this world +a great deal of good, but I do not class him with the first. Some +of his poetry is wonderfully good and in it are some of the deepest +and most beautiful lines. I think he was a poet rather than a +philosopher. His doctrine of compensation would be delightful if +it had the facts to support it. + +Of course, Hawthorne was a great writer. His style is a little +monotonous, but the matter is good. "The Marble Faun" is by far +his best effort. I shall always regret that Hawthorne wrote the +life of Franklin Pierce. + +Walt Whitman will hold a high place among American writers. His +poem on the death of Lincoln, entitled "When Lilacs Last in the +Dooryard Bloom'd," is the greatest ever written on this continent. +He was a natural poet and wrote lines worthy of America. He was +the poet of democracy and individuality, and of liberty. He was +worthy of the great Republic. + +_Question_. What about Henry George's books? + +_Answer_. Henry George wrote a wonderful book and one that arrested +the attention of the world--one of the greatest books of the century. +While I do not believe in his destructive theories, I gladly pay +a tribute to his sincerity and his genius. + +_Question_. What do you think of Bellamy? + +_Answer_. I do not think what is called nationalism of the Bellamy +kind is making any particular progress in this country. We are +believers in individual independence, and will be, I hope, forever. + +Boston was at one time the literary center of the country, but the +best writers are not living here now. The best novelists of our +country are not far from Boston. Edgar Fawcett lives in New York. +Howells was born, I believe, in Ohio, and Julian Hawthorne lives +in New Jersey or in Long Island. Among the poets, James Whitcomb +Riley is a native of Indiana, and he has written some of the +daintiest and sweetest things in American literature. Edgar Fawcett +is a great poet. His "Magic Flower" is as beautiful as anything +Tennyson has ever written. Eugene Field of Chicago, has written +some charming things, natural and touching. + +Westward the star of literature takes its course. + +--_The Star_, Kansas City, Mo., May 26, 1892. + + +INEBRIETY.* + +[* Published from notes found among Colonel Ingersoll's papers, +evidently written soon after the discovery of the "Keeley Cure."] + +_Question_. Do you consider inebriety a disease, or the result of +diseased conditions? + +_Answer_. I believe that by a long and continuous use of stimulants, +the system gets in such a condition that it imperatively demands +not only the usual, but an increased stimulant. After a time, +every nerve becomes hungry, and there is in the body of the man a +cry, coming from every nerve, for nourishment. There is a kind of +famine, and unless the want is supplied, insanity is the result. +This hunger of the nerves drowns the voice of reason--cares nothing +for argument--nothing for experience--nothing for the sufferings +of others--nothing for anything, except for the food it requires. +Words are wasted, advice is of no possible use, argument is like +reasoning with the dead. The man has lost the control of his will +--it has been won over to the side of the nerves. He imagines that +if the nerves are once satisfied he can then resume the control of +himself. Of course, this is a mistake, and the more the nerves +are satisfied, the more imperative is their demand. Arguments are +not of the slightest force. The knowledge--the conviction--that +the course pursued is wrong, has no effect. The man is in the +grasp of appetite. He is like a ship at the mercy of wind and wave +and tide. The fact that the needle of the compass points to the +north has no effect--the compass is not a force--it cannot battle +with the wind and tide--and so, in spite of the fact that the needle +points to the north, the ship is stranded on the rocks. + +So the fact that the man knows that he should not drink has not +the slightest effect upon him. The sophistry of passion outweighs +all that reason can urge. In other words, the man is the victim +of disease, and until the disease is arrested, his will is not his +own. He may wish to reform, but wish is not will. He knows all +of the arguments in favor of temperance--he knows all about the +distress of wife and child--all about the loss of reputation and +character--all about the chasm toward which he is drifting--and +yet, not being the master of himself, he goes with the tide. + +For thousands of years society has sought to do away with inebriety +by argument, by example, by law; and yet millions and millions have +been carried away and countless thousands have become victims of +alcohol. In this contest words have always been worthless, for +the reason that no argument can benefit a man who has lost control +of himself. + +_Question_. As a lawyer, will you express an opinion as to the +moral and legal responsibility of a victim of alcoholism? + +_Answer_. Personally, I regard the moral and legal responsibility +of all persons as being exactly the same. All persons do as they +must. If you wish to change the conduct of an individual you must +change his conditions--otherwise his actions will remain the same. + +We are beginning to find that there is no effect without a cause, +and that the conduct of individuals is not an exception to this +law. Every hope, every fear, every dream, every virtue, every +crime, has behind it an efficient cause. Men do neither right nor +wrong by chance. In the world of fact and in the world of conduct, +as well as in the world of imagination, there is no room, no place, +for chance. + +_Question_. In the case of an inebriate who has committed a crime, +what do you think of the common judicial opinion that such a criminal +is as deserving of punishment as a person not inebriated? + +_Answer_. I see no difference. Believing as I do that all persons +act as they must, it makes not the slightest difference whether +the person so acting is what we call inebriated, or sane, or insane +--he acts as he must. + +There should be no such thing as punishment. Society should protect +itself by such means as intelligence and humanity may suggest, but +the idea of punishment is barbarous. No man ever was, no man ever +will be, made better by punishment. Society should have two objects +in view: First, the defence of itself, and second, the reformation +of the so-called criminal. + +The world has gone on fining, imprisoning, torturing and killing +the victims of condition and circumstance, and condition and +circumstance have gone on producing the same kind of men and women +year after year and century after century--and all this is so +completely within the control of cause and effect, within the scope +and jurisdiction of universal law, that we can prophesy the number +of criminals for the next year--the thieves and robbers and murderers +--with almost absolute certainty. + +There are just so many mistakes committed every year--so many crimes +--so many heartless and foolish things done--and it does not seem +to be--at least by the present methods--possible to increase or +decrease the number. + +We have thousands and thousands of pulpits, and thousands of +moralists, and countless talkers and advisers, but all these sermons, +and all the advice, and all the talk, seem utterly powerless in +the presence of cause and effect. Mothers may pray, wives may +weep, children may starve, but the great procession moves on. + +For thousands of years the world endeavored to save itself from +disease by ceremonies, by genuflections, by prayers, by an appeal +to the charity and mercy of heaven--but the diseases flourished +and the graveyards became populous, and all the ceremonies and all +the prayers were without the slightest effect. We must at last +recognize the fact, that not only life, but conduct, has a physical +basis. We must at last recognize the fact that virtue and vice, +genius and stupidity, are born of certain conditions. + +_Question_. In which way do you think the reformation or reconstruction +of the inebriate is to be effected--by punishment, by moral suasion, +by seclusion, or by medical treatment? + +_Answer_. In the first place, punishment simply increases the +disease. The victim, without being able to give the reasons, feels +that punishment is unjust, and thus feeling, the effect of the +punishment cannot be good. + +You might as well punish a man for having the consumption which he +inherited from his parents, or for having a contagious disease +which was given to him without his fault, as to punish him for +drunkenness. No one wishes to be unhappy--no one wishes to destroy +his own well-being. All persons prefer happiness to unhappiness, +and success to failure, Consequently, you might as well punish a +man for being unhappy, and thus increase his unhappiness, as to +punish him for drunkenness. In neither case is he responsible for +what he suffers. + +Neither can you cure this man by what is called moral suasion. +Moral suasion, if it amounts to anything, is the force of argument +--that is to say, the result of presenting the facts to the victim. +Now, of all persons in the world, the victim knows the facts. He +knows not only the effect upon those who love him, but the effect +upon himself. There are no words that can add to his vivid +appreciation of the situation. There is no language so eloquent +as the sufferings of his wife and children. All these things the +drunkard knows, and knows perfectly, and knows as well as any other +human being can know. At the same time, he feels that the tide +and current of passion are beyond his power. He feels that he +cannot row against the stream. + +There is but one way, and that is, to treat the drunkard as the +victim of a disease--treat him precisely as you would a man with +a fever, as a man suffering from smallpox, or with some form of +indigestion. It is impossible to talk a man out of consumption, +or to reason him out of typhoid fever. You may tell him that he +ought not to die, that he ought to take into consideration the +condition in which he would leave his wife. You may talk to him +about his children--the necessity of their being fed and educated +--but all this will have nothing to do with the progress of the +disease. The man does not wish to die--he wishes to live--and yet, +there will come a time in his disease when even that wish to live +loses its power to will, and the man drifts away on the tide, +careless of life or death. + +So it is with drink. Every nerve asks for a stimulant. Every drop +of blood cries out for assistance, and in spite of all argument, +in spite of all knowledge, in this famine of the nerves, a man +loses the power of will. Reason abdicates the throne, and hunger +takes its place. + +_Question_. Will you state your reasons for your belief? + +_Answer_. In the first place, I will give a reason for my unbelief +in what is called moral suasion and in legislation. + +As I said before, for thousands and thousands of years, fathers +and mothers and daughters and sisters and brothers have been +endeavoring to prevent the ones they love from drink, and yet, in +spite of everything, millions have gone on and filled at last a +drunkard's grave. So, societies have been formed all over the +world. But the consumption of ardent spirits has steadily increased. +Laws have been passed in nearly all the nations of the world upon +the subject, and these laws, so far as I can see, have done but +little, if any, good. + +And the same old question is upon us now: What shall be done with +the victims of drink? There have been probably many instances in +which men have signed the pledge and have reformed. I do not say +that it is not possible to reform many men, in certain stages, by +moral suasion. Possibly, many men can be reformed in certain +stages, by law; but the per cent. is so small that, in spite of +that per cent., the average increases. For these reasons, I have +lost confidence in legislation and in moral suasion. I do not say +what legislation may do by way of prevention, or what moral suasion +may do in the same direction, but I do say that after man have +become the victims of alcohol, advice and law seem to have lost +their force. + +I believe that science is to become the savior of mankind. In +other words, every appetite, every excess, has a physical basis, +and if we only knew enough of the human system--of the tides and +currents of thought and will and wish--enough of the storms of +passion--if we only knew how the brain acts and operates--if we +only knew the relation between blood and thought, between thought +and act--if we only knew the conditions of conduct, then we could, +through science, control the passions of the human race. + +When I first heard of the cure of inebriety through scientific +means, I felt that the morning star had risen in the east--I felt +that at last we were finding solid ground. I did not accept--being +of a skeptical turn of mind--all that I heard as true. I preferred +to hope, and wait. I have waited, until I have seen men, the +victims of alcohol, in the very gutter of disgrace and despair, +lifted from the mire, rescued from the famine of desire, from the +grasp of appetite. I have seen them suddenly become men--masters +and monarchs of themselves. + + +MIRACLES, THEOSOPHY AND SPIRITUALISM. + +_Question_. Do you believe that there is such a thing as a miracle, +or that there has ever been? + +_Answer_. Mr. Locke was in the habit of saying: "Define your +terms." So the first question is, What is a miracle? If it is +something wonderful, unusual, inexplicable, then there have been +many miracles. If you mean simply that which is inexplicable, then +the world is filled with miracles; but if you mean by a miracle, +something contrary to the facts in nature, then it seems to me that +the miracle must be admitted to be an impossibility. It is like +twice two are eleven in mathematics. + +If, again, we take the ground of some of the more advanced clergy, +that a miracle is in accordance with the facts in nature, but with +facts unknown to man, then we are compelled to say that a miracle +is performed by a divine sleight-of-hand; as, for instance, that +our senses are deceived; or, that it is perfectly simple to this +higher intelligence, while inexplicable to us. If we give this +explanation, then man has been imposed upon by a superior intelligence. +It is as though one acquainted with the sciences--with the action +of electricity--should excite the wonder of savages by sending +messages to his partner. The savage would say, "A miracle;" but +the one who sent the message would say, "There is no miracle; it +is in accordance with facts in nature unknown to you." So that, +after all, the word miracle grows in the soil of ignorance. + +The question arises whether a superior intelligence ought to impose +upon the inferior. I believe there was a French saint who had his +head cut off by robbers, and this saint, after the robbers went +away, got up, took his head under his arm and went on his way until +he found friends to set it on right. A thing like this, if it +really happened, was a miracle. + +So it may be said that nothing is much more miraculous than the +fact that intelligent men believe in miracles. If we read in the +annals of China that several thousand years ago five thousand people +were fed on one sandwich, and that several sandwiches were left +over after the feast, there are few intelligent men--except, it +may be, the editors of religious weeklies--who would credit the +statement. But many intelligent people, reading a like story in +the Hebrew, or in the Greek, or in a mistranslation from either of +these languages, accept the story without a doubt. + +So if we should find in the records of the Indians that a celebrated +medicine-man of their tribe used to induce devils to leave crazy +people and take up their abode in wild swine, very few people would +believe the story. + +I believe it is true that the priest of one religion has never had +the slightest confidence in the priest of any other religion. + +My own opinion is, that nature is just as wonderful one time as +another; that that which occurs to-day is just as miraculous as +anything that ever happened; that nothing is more wonderful than +that we live--that we think--that we convey our thoughts by speech, +by gestures, by pictures. + +Nothing is more wonderful than the growth of grass--the production +of seed--the bud, the blossom and the fruit. In other words, we +are surrounded by the inexplicable. + +All that happens in conformity with what we know, we call natural; +and that which is said to have happened, not in conformity with +what we know, we say is wonderful; and that which we believe to +have happened contrary to what we know, we call the miraculous. + +I think the truth is, that nothing ever happened except in a natural +way; that behind every effect has been an efficient cause, and that +this wondrous procession of causes and effects has never been, and +never will be, broken. In other words, there is nothing superior +to the universe--nothing that can interfere with this procession +of causes and effects. I believe in no miracles in the theological +sense. My opinion is that the universe is, forever has been, and +forever will be, perfectly natural. + +Whenever a religion has been founded among barbarians and ignorant +people, the founder has appealed to miracle as a kind of credential +--as an evidence that he is in partnership with some higher power. +The credulity of savagery made this easy. But at last we have +discovered that there is no necessary relation between the miraculous +and the moral. Whenever a man's reason is developed to that point +that he sees the reasonableness of a thing, he needs no miracle to +convince him. It is only ignorance or cunning that appeals to the +miraculous. + +There is another thing, and that is this: Truth relies upon itself +--that is to say, upon the perceived relation between itself and +all other truths. If you tell the facts, you need not appeal to +a miracle. It is only a mistake or a falsehood, that needs to be +propped and buttressed by wonders and miracles. + +_Question_. What is your explanation of the miracles referred to +in the Old and New Testaments? + +_Answer_. In the first place, a miracle cannot be explained. If +it is a real miracle, there is no explanation. If it can be +explained, then the miracle disappears, and the thing was done in +accordance with the facts and forces of nature. + +In a time when not one it may be in thousands could read or write, +when language was rude, and when the signs by which thoughts were +conveyed were few and inadequate, it was very easy to make mistakes, +and nothing is more natural than for a mistake to grow into a +miracle. In an ignorant age, history for the most part depended +upon memory. It was handed down from the old in their dotage, to +the young without judgment. The old always thought that the early +days were wonderful--that the world was wearing out because they +were. The past looked at through the haze of memory, became +exaggerated, gigantic. Their fathers were stronger than they, and +their grandfathers far superior to their fathers, and so on until +they reached men who had the habit of living about a thousand years. + +In my judgment, everything in the Old Testament contrary to the +experience of the civilized world, is false. I do not say that +those who told the stories knew that they were false, or that those +who wrote them suspected that they were not true. Thousands and +thousands of lies are told by honest stupidity and believed by +innocent credulity. Then again, cunning takes advantage of ignorance, +and so far as I know, though all the history of the world a good +many people have endeavored to make a living without work. + +I am perfectly convinced of the integrity of nature--that the +elements are eternally the same--that the chemical affinities and +hatreds know no shadow of turning--that just so many atoms of one +kind combine with so many atoms of another, and that the relative +numbers have never changed and never will change. I am satisfied +that the attraction of gravitation is a permanent institution; that +the laws of motion have been the same that they forever will be. +There is no chance, there is no caprice. Behind every effect is +a cause, and every effect must in its turn become a cause, and only +that is produced which a cause of necessity produces. + +_Question_. What do you think of Madame Blavatsky and her school +of Theosophists? Do you believe Madame Blavatsky does or has done +the wonderful things related of her? Have you seen or known of +any Theosophical or esoteric marvels? + +_Answer_. I think wonders are about the same in this country that +they are in India, and nothing appears more likely to me simply +because it is surrounded with the mist of antiquity. In my judgment, +Madame Blavatsky has never done any wonderful things--that is to +say, anything not in perfect accordance with the facts of nature. + +I know nothing of esoteric marvels. In one sense, everything that +exists is a marvel, and the probability is that if we knew the +history of one grain of sand we would know the history of the +universe. I regard the universe as a unit. Everything that happens +is only a different aspect of that unit. There is no room for the +marvelous--there is no space in which it can operate--there is no +fulcrum for its lever. The universe is already occupied with the +natural. The ground is all taken. + +It may be that all these people are perfectly honest, and imagine +that they have had wonderful experiences. I know but little of +the Theosophists--but little of the Spiritualists. It has always +seemed to me that the messages received by Spiritualists are +remarkably unimportant--that they tell us but little about the +other world, and just as little about this--that if all the messages +supposed to have come from angelic lips, or spiritual lips, were +destroyed, certainly the literature of the world would lose but +little. Some of these people are exceedingly intelligent, and +whenever they say any good thing, I imagine that it was produced +in their brain, and that it came from no other world. I have no +right to pass upon their honesty. Most of them may be sincere. +It may be that all the founders of religions have really supposed +themselves to be inspired--believed that they held conversations +with angels and Gods. It seems to be easy for some people to get +in such a frame of mind that their thoughts become realities, their +dreams substances, and their very hopes palpable. + +Personally, I have no sort of confidence in these messages from +the other world. There may be mesmeric forces--there may be an +odic force. It may be that some people can tell of what another +is thinking. I have seen no such people--at least I am not acquainted +with them--and my own opinion is that no such persons exist. + +_Question_. Do you believe the spirits of the dead come back to +earth? + +_Answer_. I do not. I do not say that the spirits do not come +back. I simply say that I know nothing on the subject. I do not +believe in such spirits, simply for the reason that I have no +evidence upon which to base such a belief. I do not say there are +no such spirits, for the reason that my knowledge is limited, and +I know of no way of demonstrating the non-existence of spirits. + +It may be that man lives forever, and it may be that what we call +life ends with what we call death. I have had no experience beyond +the grave, and very little back of birth. Consequently, I cannot +say that I have a belief on this subject. I can simply say that +I have no knowledge on this subject, and know of no fact in nature +that I would use as the corner-stone of a belief. + +_Question_. Do you believe in the resurrection of the body? + +_Answer_. My answer to that is about the same as to the other +question. I do not believe in the resurrection of the body. It +seems to me an exceedingly absurd belief--and yet I do not know. +I am told, and I suppose I believe, that the atoms that are in me +have been in many other people, and in many other forms of life, +and I suppose at death the atoms forming my body go back to the +earth and are used in countless forms. These facts, or what I +suppose to be facts, render a belief in the resurrection of the +body impossible to me. + +We get atoms to support our body from what we eat. Now, if a +cannibal should eat a missionary, and certain atoms belonging to +the missionary should be used by the cannibal in his body, and the +cannibal should then die while the atoms of the missionary formed +part of his flesh, to whom would these atoms belong in the morning +of the resurrection? + +Then again, science teaches us that there is a kind of balance +between animal and vegetable life, and that probably all men and +all animals have been trees, and all trees have been animals; so +that the probability is that the atoms that are now in us have +been, as I said in the first place, in millions of other people. +Now, if this be so, there cannot be atoms enough in the morning of +the resurrection, because, if the atoms are given to the first men, +that belonged to the first men when they died, there will certainly +be no atoms for the last men. + +Consequently, I am compelled to say that I do not believe in the +resurrection of the body.* + +[* From notes found among Colonel Ingersoll's papers.] + + +TOLSTOY AND LITERATURE. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of Count Leo Tolstoy? + +_Answer_. I have read Tolstoy. He is a curious mixture of simplicity +and philosophy. He seems to have been carried away by his conception +of religion. He is a non-resistant to such a degree that he asserts +that he would not, if attacked, use violence to preserve his own +life or the life of a child. Upon this question he is undoubtedly +insane. + +So he is trying to live the life of a peasant and doing without +the comforts of life! This is not progress. Civilization should +not endeavor to bring about equality by making the rich poor or +the comfortable miserable. This will not add to the pleasures of +the rich, neither will it feed the hungry, not clothe the naked. + +The civilized wealthy should endeavor to help the needy, and help +them in a sensible way, not through charity, but through industry; +through giving them opportunities to take care of themselves. I +do not believe in the equality that is to be reached by pulling +the successful down, but I do believe in civilization that tends +to raise the fallen and assists those in need. + +Should we all follow Tolstoy's example and live according to his +philosophy the world would go back to barbarism; art would be lost; +that which elevates and refines would be destroyed; the voice of +music would become silent, and man would be satisfied with a rag, +a hut, a crust. We do not want the equality of savages. + +No, in civilization there must be differences, because there is a +constant movement forward. The human race cannot advance in line. +There will be pioneers, there will be the great army, and there +will be countless stragglers. It is not necessary for the whole +army to go back to the stragglers, it is better that the army should +march forward toward the pioneers. + +It may be that the sale of Tolstoy's works is on the increase in +America, but certainly the principles of Tolstoy are gaining no +foothold here. We are not a nation of non-resistants. We believe +in defending our homes. Nothing can exceed the insanity of non- +resistance. This doctrine leaves virtue naked and clothes vice in +armor; it gives every weapon to the wrong and takes every shield +from the right. I believe that goodness has the right of self- +defence. As a matter of fact, vice should be left naked and virtue +should have all the weapons. The good should not be a flock of +sheep at the mercy of every wolf. So, I do not accept Tolstoy's +theory of equality as a sensible solution of the labor problem. + +The hope of this world is that men will become civilized to that +degree that they cannot be happy while they know that thousands of +their fellow-men are miserable. + +The time will come when the man who dwells in a palace will not be +happy if Want sits upon the steps at his door. No matter how well +he is clothed himself he will not enjoy his robes if he sees others +in rags, and the time will come when the intellect of this world +will be directed by the heart of this world, and when men of genius +and power will do what they can for the benefit of their fellow- +men. All this is to come through civilization, through experience. + +Men, after a time, will find the worthlessness of great wealth; +they will find it is not splendid to excite envy in others. So, +too, they will find that the happiness of the human race is so +interdependent and so interwoven, that finally the interest of +humanity will be the interest of the individual. + +I know that at present the lives of many millions are practically +without value, but in my judgment, the world is growing a little +better every day. On the average, men have more comforts, better +clothes, better food, more books and more of the luxuries of life +than ever before. + +_Question_. It is said that properly to appreciate Rousseau, +Voltaire, Hugo and other French classics, a thorough knowledge of +the French language is necessary. What is your opinion? + +_Answer_. No; to say that a knowledge of French is necessary in +order to appreciate Voltaire or Hugo is nonsensical. For a student +anxious to study the works of these masters, to set to work to +learn the language of the writers would be like my building a flight +of stairs to go down to supper. The stairs are already there. +Some other person built them for me and others who choose to use +them. + +Men have spent their lives in the study of the French and English, +and have given us Voltaire, Hugo and all other works of French +classics, perfect in sentiment and construction as the originals +are. Macaulay was a great linguist, but he wrote no better than +Shakespeare, and Burns wrote perfect English, though virtually +uneducated. Good writing is a matter of genius and heart; reading +is application and judgment. + +I am of the opinion that Wilbur's English translation of "Les +Miserables" is better than Hugo's original, as a literary +masterpiece. + +What a grand novel it is! What characters, Jean Valjean and Javert! + +_Question_. Which in your opinion is the greatest English novel? + +_Answer_. I think the greatest novel ever written in English is +"A Tale of Two Cities," by Dickens. It is full of philosophy; its +incidents are dramatically grouped. Sidney Carton, the hero, is +a marvelous creation and a marvelous character. Lucie Manette is +as delicate as the perfume of wild violets, and cell 105, North +Tower, and scenes enacted there, almost touch the region occupied +by "Lear." There, too, Mme. Defarge is the impersonation of the +French Revolution, and the nobleman of the chateau with his fine +features changed to stone, and the messenger at Tellson's Bank +gnawing the rust from his nails; all there are the creations of +genius, and these children of fiction will live as long as Imagination +spreads her many-colored wings in the mind of man. + +_Question_. What do you think of Pope? + +_Answer_. Pope! Alexander Pope, the word-carpenter, a mechanical +poet, or stay--rather a "digital poet;" that fits him best--one of +those fellows who counts his fingers to see that his verse is in +perfect rhythm. His "Essay on Man" strikes me as being particularly +defective. For instance: + + "All discord, harmony not understood, + All partial evil, universal good," + +from the first epistle of his "Essay on Man." Anything that is +evil cannot by any means be good, and anything partial cannot be +universal. + +We see in libraries ponderous tomes labeled "Burke's Speeches." +No person ever seems to read them, but he is now regarded as being +in his day a great speaker, because now no one has pluck enough to +read his speeches. Why, for thirty years Burke was known in +Parliament as the "Dinner Bell"--whenever he rose to speak, everybody +went to dinner. + +--_The Evening Express_, Buffalo, New York, October 6, 1892. + + +WOMAN IN POLITICS. + +_Question_. What do you think of the influence of women in +politics? + +_Answer_. I think the influence of women is always good in politics, +as in everything else. I think it the duty of every woman to +ascertain what she can in regard to her country, including its +history, laws and customs. Woman above all others is a teacher. +She, above all others, determines the character of children; that +is to say, of men and women. + +There is not the slightest danger of women becoming too intellectual +or knowing too much. Neither is there any danger of men knowing +too much. At least, I know of no men who are in immediate peril +from that source. I am a firm believer in the equal rights of +human beings, and no matter what I think as to what woman should +or should not do, she has the same right to decide for herself that +I have to decide for myself. If women wish to vote, if they wish +to take part in political matters, if they wish to run for office, +I shall do nothing to interfere with their rights. I most cheerfully +admit that my political rights are only equal to theirs. + +There was a time when physical force or brute strength gave pre- +eminence. The savage chief occupied his position by virtue of his +muscle, of his courage, on account of the facility with which he +wielded a club. As long as nations depend simply upon brute force, +the man, in time of war, is, of necessity, of more importance to +the nation than woman, and as the dispute is to be settled by +strength, by force, those who have the strength and force naturally +settle it. As the world becomes civilized, intelligence slowly +takes the place of force, conscience restrains muscle, reason enters +the arena, and the gladiator retires. + +A little while ago the literature of the world was produced by men, +and men were not only the writers, but the readers. At that time +the novels were coarse and vulgar. Now the readers of fiction are +women, and they demand that which they can read, and the result is +that women have become great writers. The women have changed our +literature, and the change has been good. + +In every field where woman has become a competitor of man she has +either become, or given evidence that she is to become, his equal. +My own opinion is that woman is naturally the equal of man and that +in time, that is to say, when she has had the opportunity and the +training, she will produce in the world of art as great pictures, +as great statues, and in the world of literature as great books, +dramas and poems as man has produced or will produce. + +There is nothing very hard to understand in the politics of a +country. The general principles are for the most part simple. It +is only in the application that the complexity arises, and woman, +I think, by nature, is as well fitted to understand these things +as man. In short, I have no prejudice on this subject. At first, +women will be more conservative than men; and this is natural. +Women have, through many generations, acquired the habit of +submission, of acquiescence. They have practiced what may be called +the slave virtues--obedience, humility--so that some time will be +required for them to become accustomed to the new order of things, +to the exercise of greater freedom, acting in accordance with +perceived obligation, independently of authority. + +So I say equal rights, equal education, equal advantages. I hope +that woman will not continue to be the serf of superstition; that +she will not be the support of the church and priest; that she will +not stand for the conservation of superstition, but that in the +east of her mind the sun of progress will rise. + +_Question_. In your lecture on Voltaire you made a remark about +the government of ministers, and you stated that if the ministers +of the city of New York had to power to make the laws most people +would prefer to live in a well regulated penitentiary. What do +you mean by this? + +_Answer_. Well, as a rule, ministers are quite severe. They have +little patience with human failures. They are taught, and they +believe and they teach, that man is absolutely master of his own +fate. Besides, they are believers in the inspiration of the +Scriptures, and the laws of the Old Testament are exceedingly +severe. Nearly every offence was punished by death. Every offence +was regarded as treason against Jehovah. + +In the Pentateuch there is no pity. If a man committed some offence +justice was not satisfied with his punishment, but proceeded to +destroy his wife and children. Jehovah seemed to think that crime +was in the blood; that it was not sufficient to kill the criminal, +but to prevent future crimes you should kill his wife and babes. +The reading of the Old Testament is calculated to harden the heart, +to drive the angel of pity from the breast, and to make man a +religious savage. The clergy, as a rule, do not take a broad and +liberal view of things. They judge every offence by what they +consider would be the result if everybody committed the same offence. +They do not understand that even vice creates obstructions for +itself, and that there is something in the nature of crime the +tendency of which is to defeat crime, and I might add in this place +that the same seems to be true of excessive virtue. As a rule, +the clergy clamor with great zeal for the execution of cruel laws. + +Let me give an instance in point: In the time of George III., in +England, there were two hundred and twenty-three offences punishable +with death. From time to time this cruel code was changed by Act +of Parliament, yet no bishop sitting in the House of Lords ever +voted in favor of any one of these measures. The bishops always +voted for death, for blood, against mercy and against the repeal +of capital punishment. During all these years there were some +twenty thousand or more of the established clergy, and yet, according +to John Bright, no voice was ever raised in any English pulpit +against the infamous criminal code. + +Another thing: The orthodox clergy teach that man is totally +depraved; that his inclination is evil; that his tendency is toward +the Devil. Starting from this as a foundation, of course every +clergyman believes every bad thing said of everybody else. So, +when some man is charged with a crime, the clergyman taking into +consideration the fact that the man is totally depraved, takes it +for granted that he must be guilty. I am not saying this for the +purpose of exciting prejudice against the clergy. I am simply +showing what is the natural result of a certain creed, of a belief +in universal depravity, or a belief in the power and influence of +a personal Devil. If the clergy could have their own way they +would endeavor to reform the world by law. They would re-enact +the old statutes of the Puritans. Joy would be a crime. Love +would be an offence. Every man with a smile on his face would be +suspected, and a dimple in the cheek would be a demonstration of +depravity. + +In the trial of a cause it is natural for a clergyman to start with +the proposition, "The defendant is guilty;" and then he says to +himself, "Let him prove himself innocent." The man who has not +been poisoned with the creed starts out with the proposition, "The +defendant is innocent; let the State prove that he is guilty." +Consequently, I say that if I were defending a man whom I knew to +be innocent, I would not have a clergyman on the jury if I could +help it. + +--_New York Advertiser_, December 24, 1893. + + +SPIRITUALISM. + +_Question_. Have you investigated Spiritualism, and what has been +your experience? + +_Answer_. A few years ago I paid some attention to what is called +Spiritualism, and was present when quite mysterious things were +supposed to have happened. The most notable seance that I attended +was given by Slade, at which slate-writing was done. Two slates +were fastened together, with a pencil between them, and on opening +the slates certain writing was found. When the writing was done +it was impossible to tell. So, I have been present when it was +claimed that certain dead people had again clothed themselves in +flesh and were again talking in the old way. In one instance, I +think, George Washington claimed to be present. On the same evening +Shakespeare put in an appearance. It was hard to recognize +Shakespeare from what the spirit said, still I was assured by the +medium that there was no mistake as to the identity. + +_Question_. Can you offer any explanation of the extraordinary +phenomena such as Henry J. Newton has had produced at his own house +under his own supervision? + +_Answer_. In the first place, I don't believe that anything such +as you describe has ever happened. I do not believe that a medium +ever passed into and out of a triple-locked iron cage. Neither do +I believe that any spirits were able to throw shoes and wraps out +of the cage; neither do I believe that any apparitions ever rose +from the floor, or that anything you relate has ever happened. +The best explanation I can give of these wonderful occurrences is +the following: A little boy and girl were standing in a doorway +holding hands. A gentleman passing, stopped for a moment and said +to the little girl: "What relation is the little boy to you?" and +she replied, "We had the same father and we had the same mother, +but I am not his sister and he is not my brother." This at first +seemed to be quite a puzzle, but it was exceedingly plain when the +answer was known: The little girl lied. + +_Question_. Have you had any experience with spirit photography, +spirit physicians, or spirit lawyers? + +_Answer_. I was shown at one time several pictures said to be the +photographs of living persons surrounded by the photographs of +spirits. I examined them very closely, and I found evidence in +the photographs themselves that they were spurious. I took it for +granted that light is the same everywhere, and that it obeys the +angle of incidence in all worlds and at all times. In looking at +the spirit photographs I found, for instance, that in the photograph +of the living person the shadows fell to the right, and that in +the photographs of the ghosts, or spirits, supposed to have been +surrounding the living person at the time the picture was taken, +the shadows did not fall in the same direction, sometimes in the +opposite direction, never at the same angle even when the general +direction was the same. This demonstrated that the photographs of +the spirits and of the living persons were not taken at the same +time. So much for photographs. + +I have had no experience with spirit physicians. I was once told +by a lawyer who came to employ me in a will case, that a certain +person had made a will giving a large amount of money for the +purpose of spreading the gospel of Spiritualism, but that the will +had been lost and than an effort was then being made to find it, +and they wished me to take certain action pending the search, and +wanted my assistance. I said to him: "If Spiritualism be true, +why not ask the man who made the will what it was and also what +has become of it. If you can find that out from the departed, I +will gladly take a retainer in the case; otherwise, I must decline." +I have had no other experience with the lawyers. + +_Question_. If you were to witness phenomena that seemed inexplicable +by natural laws, would you be inclined to favor Spiritualism? + +_Answer_. I would not. If I should witness phenomena that I could +not explain, I would leave the phenomena unexplained. I would not +explain them because I did not understand them, and say they were +or are produced by spirits. That is no explanation, and, after +admitting that we do not know and that we cannot explain, why should +we proceed to explain? I have seen Mr. Kellar do things for which +I cannot account. Why should I say that he has the assistance of +spirits? All I have a right to say is that I know nothing about +how he does them. So I am compelled to say with regard to many +spiritualistic feats, that I am ignorant of the ways and means. +At the same time, I do not believe that there is anything supernatural +in the universe. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of Spiritualism and Spiritualists? + +_Answer_. I think the Spiritualism of the present day is certainly +in advance of the Spiritualism of several centuries ago. Persons +who now deny Spiritualism and hold it in utter contempt insist that +some eighteen or nineteen centuries ago it had possession of the +world; that miracles were of daily occurrence; that demons, devils, +fiends, took possession of human beings, lived in their bodies, +dominated their minds. They believe, too, that devils took possession +of the bodies of animals. They also insist that a wish could +multiply fish. And, curiously enough, the Spiritualists of our +time have but little confidence in the phenomena of eighteen hundred +years ago; and, curiously enough, those who believe in the Spiritualism +of eighteen hundred years ago deny the Spiritualism of to-day. I +think the Spiritualists of to-day have far more evidence of their +phenomena than those who believe in the wonderful things of eighteen +centuries ago. The Spiritualists of to-day have living witnesses, +which is something. I know a great many Spiritualists that are +exceedingly good people, and are doing what they can to make the +world better. But I think they are mistaken. + +_Question_. Do you believe in spirit entities, whether manifestible +or not? + +_Answer_. I believe there is such a thing as matter. I believe +there is a something called force. The difference between force +and matter I do not know. So there is something called consciousness. +Whether we call consciousness an entity or not makes no difference +as to what it really is. There is something that hears, sees and +feels, a something that takes cognizance of what happens in what +we call the outward world. No matter whether we call this something +matter or spirit, it is something that we do not know, to say the +least of it, all about. We cannot understand what matter is. It +defies us, and defies definitions. So, with what we call spirit, +we are in utter ignorance of what it is. We have some little +conception of what we mean by it, and of what others mean, but as +to what it really is no one knows. It makes no difference whether +we call ourselves Materialists or Spiritualists, we believe in all +there is, no matter what you call it. If we call it all matter, +then we believe that matter can think and hope and dream. If we +call it all spirit, then we believe that spirit has force, that it +offers a resistance; in other words, that it is, in one of its +aspects, what we call matter. I cannot believe that everything +can be accounted for by motion or by what we call force, because +there is something that recognizes force. There is something that +compares, that thinks, that remembers; there is something that +suffers and enjoys; there is something that each one calls himself +or herself, that is inexplicable to himself or herself, and it +makes no difference whether we call this something mind or soul, +effect or entity, it still eludes us, and all the words we have +coined for the purpose of expressing our knowledge of this something, +after all, express only our desire to know, and our efforts to +ascertain. It may be that if we would ask some minister, some one +who has studied theology, he would give us a perfect definition. +The scientists know nothing about it, and I know of no one who +does, unless it be a theologian. + +--_The Globe-Democrat_, St. Louis, Mo., 1893. + + +[Illustration] +_Chatham Street Theater, New York City, N. Y., where Robert G. +Ingersoll was baptized in 1836 by his father, the Rev. John Ingersoll, +who temporarily preached at the theatre, his church having been +destroyed by fire_. + +PLAYS AND PLAYERS. + +_Question_. What place does the theatre hold among the arts? + +_Answer_. Nearly all the arts unite in the theatre, and it is the +result of the best, the highest, the most artistic, that man can do. + +In the first place, there must be the dramatic poet. Dramatic +poetry is the subtlest, profoundest, the most intellectual, the +most passionate and artistic of all. Then the stage must be +prepared, and there is work for the architect, the painter and +sculptor. Then the actors appear, and they must be gifted with +imagination, with a high order of intelligence; they must have +sympathies quick and deep, natures capable of the greatest emotion, +dominated by passion. They must have impressive presence, and all +that is manly should meet and unite in the actor; all that is +womanly, tender, intense and admirable should be lavishly bestowed +on the actress. In addition to all this, actors should have the +art of being natural. + +Let me explain what I mean by being natural. When I say that an +actor is natural, I mean that he appears to act in accordance with +his ideal, in accordance with his nature, and that he is not an +imitator or a copyist--that he is not made up of shreds and patches +taken from others, but that all he does flows from interior fountains +and is consistent with his own nature, all having in a marked degree +the highest characteristics of the man. That is what I mean by +being natural. + +The great actor must be acquainted with the heart, must know the +motives, ends, objects and desires that control the thoughts and +acts of men. He must be familiar with many people, including the +lowest and the highest, so that he may give to others, clothed with +flesh and blood, the characters born of the poet's brain. The +great actor must know the relations that exist between passion and +voice, gesture and emphasis, expression and pose. He must speak +not only with his voice, but with his body. The great actor must +be master of many arts. + +Then comes the musician. The theatre has always been the home of +music, and this music must be appropriate; must, or should, express +or supplement what happens on the stage; should furnish rest and +balm for minds overwrought with tragic deeds. To produce a great +play, and put it worthily upon the stage, involves most arts, many +sciences and nearly all that is artistic, poetic and dramatic in +the mind of man. + +_Question_. Should the drama teach lessons and discuss social +problems, or should it give simply intellectual pleasure and furnish +amusement? + +_Answer_. Every great play teaches many lessons and touches nearly +all social problems. But the great play does this by indirection. +Every beautiful thought is a teacher; every noble line speaks to +the brain and heart. Beauty, proportion, melody suggest moral +beauty, proportion in conduct and melody in life. In a great play +the relations of the various characters, their objects, the means +adopted for their accomplishment, must suggest, and in a certain +sense solve or throw light on many social problems, so that the +drama teaches lessons, discusses social problems and gives intellectual +pleasure. + +The stage should not be dogmatic; neither should its object be +directly to enforce a moral. The great thing for the drama to do, +and the great thing it has done, and is doing, is to cultivate the +imagination. This is of the utmost importance. The civilization +of man depends upon the development, not only of the intellect, +but of the imagination. Most crimes of violence are committed by +people who are destitute of imagination. People without imagination +make most of the cruel and infamous creeds. They were the persecutors +and destroyers of their fellow-men. By cultivating the imagination, +the stage becomes one of the greatest teachers. It produces the +climate in which the better feelings grow; it is the home of the +ideal. All beautiful things tend to the civilization of man. The +great statues plead for proportion in life, the great symphonies +suggest the melody of conduct, and the great plays cultivate the +heart and brain. + +_Question_. What do you think of the French drama as compared with +the English, morally and artistically considered? + +_Answer_. The modern French drama, so far as I am acquainted with +it, is a disease. It deals with the abnormal. It is fashioned +after Balzac. It exhibits moral tumors, mental cancers and all +kinds of abnormal fungi,--excrescences. Everything is stood on +its head; virtue lives in the brothel; the good are the really bad +and the worst are, after all, the best. It portrays the exceptional, +and mistakes the scum-covered bayou for the great river. The French +dramatists seem to think that the ceremony of marriage sows the +seed of vice. They are always conveying the idea that the virtuous +are uninteresting, rather stupid, without sense and spirit enough +to take advantage of their privilege. Between the greatest French +plays and the greatest English plays of course there is no comparison. +If a Frenchman had written the plays of Shakespeare, Desdemona +would have been guilty, Isabella would have ransomed her brother +at the Duke's price, Juliet would have married the County Paris, +run away from him, and joined Romeo in Mantua, and Miranda would +have listened coquettishly to the words of Caliban. The French +are exceedingly artistic. They understand stage effects, love the +climax, delight in surprises, especially in the improbable; but +their dramatists lack sympathy and breadth of treatment. They are +provincial. With them France is the world. They know little of +other countries. Their plays do not touch the universal. + +_Question_. What are your feelings in reference to idealism on +the stage? + +_Answer_. The stage ought to be the home of the ideal; in a word, +the imagination should have full sway. The great dramatist is a +creator; he is the sovereign, and governs his own world. The +realist is only a copyist. He does not need genius. All he wants +is industry and the trick of imitation. On the stage, the real +should be idealized, the ordinary should be transfigured; that is, +the deeper meaning of things should be given. As we make music of +common air, and statues of stone, so the great dramatist should +make life burst into blossom on the stage. A lot of words, facts, +odds and ends divided into acts and scenes do not make a play. +These things are like old pieces of broken iron that need the heat +of the furnace so that they may be moulded into shape. Genius is +that furnace, and in its heat and glow and flame these pieces, +these fragments, become molten and are cast into noble and heroic +forms. Realism degrades and impoverishes the stage. + +_Question_. What attributes should an actor have to be really +great? + +_Answer_. Intelligence, imagination, presence; a mobile and +impressive face; a body that lends itself to every mood in appropriate +pose, one that is oak or willow, at will; self-possession; absolute +ease; a voice capable of giving every shade of meaning and feeling, +an intuitive knowledge or perception of proportion, and above all, +the actor should be so sincere that he loses himself in the character +he portrays. Such an actor will grow intellectually and morally. +The great actor should strive to satisfy himself--to reach his own +ideal. + +_Question_. Do you enjoy Shakespeare more in the library than +Shakespeare interpreted by actors now on the boards? + +_Answer_. I enjoy Shakespeare everywhere. I think it would give +me pleasure to hear those wonderful lines spoken even by phonographs. +But Shakespeare is greatest and best when grandly put upon the +stage. There you know the connection, the relation, the circumstances, +and these bring out the appropriateness and the perfect meaning of +the text. Nobody in this country now thinks of Hamlet without +thinking of Booth. For this generation at least, Booth is Hamlet. +It is impossible for me to read the words of Sir Toby without seeing +the face of W. F. Owen. Brutus is Davenport, Cassius is Lawrence +Barrett, and Lear will be associated always in my mind with Edwin +Forrest. Lady Macbeth is to me Adelaide Ristori, the greatest +actress I ever saw. If I understood music perfectly, I would much +rather hear Seidl's orchestra play "Tristan," or hear Remenyi's +matchless rendition of Schubert's "Ave Maria," than to read the +notes. + +Most people love the theatre. Everything about it from stage to +gallery attracts and fascinates. The mysterious realm, behind the +scenes, from which emerge kings and clowns, villains and fools, +heroes and lovers, and in which they disappear, is still a fairyland. +As long as man is man he will enjoy the love and laughter, the +tears and rapture of the mimic world. + +_Question_. Is it because we lack men of genius or because our +life is too material that no truly great American plays have been +written? + +_Answer_. No great play has been written since Shakespeare; that +is, no play has been written equal to his. But there is the same +reason for that in all other countries, including England, that +there is in this country, and that reason is that Shakespeare has +had no equal. + +America has not failed because life in the Republic is too material. +Germany and France, and, in fact, all other nations, have failed +in the same way. In the sense in which I am speaking, Germany has +produced no great play. + +In the dramatic world Shakespeare stands alone. Compared with him, +even the classic is childish. + +There is plenty of material for plays. The Republic has lived a +great play--a great poem--a most marvelous drama. Here, on our +soil, have happened some of the greatest events in the history of +the world. + +All human passions have been and are in full play here, and here +as elsewhere, can be found the tragic, the comic, the beautiful, +the poetic, the tears, the smiles, the lamentations and the laughter +that are the necessary warp and woof with which to weave the living +tapestries that we call plays. + +We are beginning. We have found that American plays must be American +in spirit. We are tired of imitations and adaptations. We want +plays worthy of the great Republic. Some good work has recently +been done, giving great hope for the future. Of course the realistic +comes first; afterward the ideal. But here in America, as in all +other lands, love is the eternal passion that will forever hold +the stage. Around that everything else will move. It is the sun. +All other passions are secondary. Their orbits are determined by +the central force from which they receive their light and meaning. + +Love, however, must be kept pure. + +The great dramatist is, of necessity, a believer in virtue, in +honesty, in courage and in the nobility of human nature. He must +know that there are men and women that even a God could not corrupt; +such knowledge, such feeling, is the foundation, and the only +foundation, that can support the splendid structure, the many +pillared stories and the swelling dome of the great drama. + +--_The New York Dramatic Mirror_, December 26, 1891. + + +WOMAN. + +It takes a hundred men to make an encampment, but one woman can +make a home. I not only admire woman as the most beautiful object +ever created, but I reverence her as the redeeming glory of humanity, +the sanctuary of all the virtues, the pledge of all perfect qualities +of heart and head. It is not just or right to lay the sins of men +at the feet of women. It is because women are so much better than +men that their faults are considered greater. + +The one thing in this world that is constant, the one peak that +rises above all clouds, the one window in which the light forever +burns, the one star that darkness cannot quench, is woman's love. +It rises to the greatest heights, it sinks to the lowest depths, +it forgives the most cruel injuries. It is perennial of life, and +grows in every climate. Neither coldness nor neglect, harshness +nor cruelty, can extinguish it. A woman's love is the perfume of +the heart. + +This is the real love that subdues the earth; the love that has +wrought all the miracles of art, that gives us music all the way +from the cradle song to the grand closing symphony that bears the +soul away on wings of fire. A love that is greater than power, +sweeter than life and stronger than death. + + +STRIKES, EXPANSION AND OTHER SUBJECTS. + +_Question_. What have you to say in regard to the decision of +Judge Billings in New Orleans, that strikes which interfere with +interstate commerce, are illegal? + +_Answer_. As a rule, men have a right to quit work at any time +unless there is some provision to the contrary in their contracts. +They have not the right to prevent other men from taking their +places. Of course I do not mean by this that strikers may not use +persuasion and argument to prevent other men from filling their +places. All blacklisting and refusing to work with other men is +illegal and punishable. Of course men may conspire to quit work, +but how is it to be proved? One man can quit, or five hundred men +can quit together, and nothing can prevent them. The decisions of +Judge Ricks and Judge Billings are an acknowledgment, at least, of +the principle of public control or regulation of railroads and of +commerce generally. The railroads, which run for private profit, +are public carriers, and the public has a vested interest in them +as such. The same principle applies to the commerce of the country +and can be dealt with by the courts in the same way. It is unlikely, +however, that Judge Billings' decision will have any lasting effect +upon organized labor. Law cannot be enforced against such vast +numbers of people, especially when they have the general sympathy. +Nearly all strikes have been illegal, but the numbers involved have +made the courts powerless. + +_Question_. Are you in favor of the annexation of Canada? + +_Answer_. Yes, if Canada is. We do not want that country unless +that country wants us. I do not believe it to the interests of +Canada to remain a province. Canada should either be an independent +nation, or a part of a nation. Now Canada is only a province--with +no career--with nothing to stimulate either patriotism or great +effort. Yes, I hope that Canada will be annexed. + +By all means annex the Sandwich Islands, too. I believe in +territorial expansion. A prosperous farmer wants the land next him, +and a prosperous nation ought to grow. I believe that we ought to +hold the key to the Pacific and its commerce. We want to be prepared +at all points to defend our interests from the greed and power of +England. + +We are going to have a navy, and we want that navy to be of use in +protecting our interests the world over. And we want interests to +protect. + +It is a splendid feeling--this feeling of growth. By the annexation +of these islands we open new avenues to American adventure, and +the tendency is to make our country greater and stronger. The West +Indian Islands ought to be ours, and some day our flag will float +there. This country must not stop growing. + +_Question_. Is the spirit of patriotism declining in America? + +_Answer_. There has been no decline in the spirit of American +patriotism; in fact, it has increased rather then otherwise as the +nation has grown older, stronger, more prosperous, more glorious. +If there were occasion to demonstrate the truth of this statement +it would be quickly demonstrated. Let an attack be made upon the +American flag, and you will very quickly find out how genuine is +the patriotic spirit of Americans. + +I do not think either that there has been a decline in the celebration +of the Fourth of July. The day is probably not celebrated with as +much burning of gunpowder and shooting of fire crackers in the +large cities as formerly, but it is celebrated with as much enthusiasm +as ever all through the West, and the feeling of rejoicing over +the anniversary of the day is as great and strong as ever. The +people are tired of celebrating with a great noise and I am glad +of it. + +_Question_. What do you think of the Congress of Religions, to be +held in Chicago during the World's Fair? + +_Answer_. It will do good, if they will honestly compare their +creeds so that each one can see just how foolish all the rest are. +They ought to compare their sacred books, and their miracles, and +their mythologies, and if they do so they will probably see that +ignorance is the mother of them all. Let them have a Congress, by +all means, and let them show how priests live on the labor of those +they deceive. It will do good. + +_Question_. Do you think that Cleveland's course as to appointments +has strengthened him with the people? + +_Answer_. Patronage is a two-edged sword with very little handle. +It takes an exceedingly clever President to strengthen himself by +its exercise. When a man is running for President the twenty men +in every town who expect to be made postmaster are for him heart +and soul. Only one can get the office, and the nineteen who do +not, feel outraged, and the lucky one is mad on account of the +delay. So twenty friends are lost with one place. + +_Question_. Is the Age of Chivalry dead? + +_Answer_. The "Age of Chivalry" never existed except in the +imagination. The Age of Chivalry was the age of cowardice and +crime. + +There is more chivalry to-day than ever. Men have a better, a +clearer idea of justice, and pay their debts better, and treat +their wives and children better than ever before. The higher and +better qualities of the soul have more to do with the average life. +To-day men have greater admiration and respect for women, greater +regard for the social and domestic obligations than their fathers +had. + +_Question_. What led you to begin lecturing on your present subject, +and what was your first lecture? + +_Answer_. My first lecture was entitled "Progress." I began +lecturing because I thought the creeds of the orthodox church false +and horrible, and because I thought the Bible cruel and absurd, +and because I like intellectual liberty. + +--New York, May 5, 1893. + + +SUNDAY A DAY OF PLEASURE. + +_Question_. What do you think of the religious spirit that seeks +to regulate by legislation the manner in which the people of this +country shall spend their Sundays? + +_Answer_. The church is not willing to stand alone, not willing +to base its influence on reason and on the character of its members. +It seeks the aid of the State. The cross is in partnership with +the sword. People should spend Sundays as they do other days; that +is to say, as they please. No one has the right to do anything on +Monday that interferes with the rights of his neighbors, and everyone +has the right to do anything he pleases on Sunday that does not +interfere with the rights of his neighbors. Sunday is a day of +rest, not of religion. We are under obligation to do right on all +days. + +Nothing can be more absurd than the idea that any particular space +of time is sacred. Everything in nature goes on the same on Sunday +as on other days, and if beyond nature there be a God, then God +works on Sunday as he does on all other days. There is no rest in +nature. There is perpetual activity in every possible direction. +The old idea that God made the world and then rested, is idiotic. +There were two reasons given to the Hebrews for keeping the Sabbath +--one because Jehovah rested on that day, the other because the +Hebrews were brought out of Egypt. The first reason, we know, is +false, and the second reason is good only for the Hebrews. According +to the Bible, Sunday, or rather the Sabbath, was not for the world, +but for the Hebrews, and the Hebrews alone. Our Sunday is pagan +and is the day of the sun, as Monday is the day of the moon. All +our day names are pagan. I am opposed to all Sunday legislation. + +_Question_. Why should Sunday be observed otherwise than as a day +of recreation? + +_Answer_. Sunday is a day of recreation, or should be; a day for +the laboring man to rest, a day to visit museums and libraries, a +day to look at pictures, a day to get acquainted with your wife +and children, a day for poetry and art, a day on which to read old +letters and to meet friends, a day to cultivate the amenities of +life, a day for those who live in tenements to feel the soft grass +beneath their feet. In short, Sunday should be a day of joy. The +church endeavors to fill it with gloom and sadness, with stupid +sermons and dyspeptic theology. + +Nothing could be more cowardly than the effort to compel the +observance of the Sabbath by law. We of America have outgrown the +childishness of the last century; we laugh at the superstitions of +our fathers. We have made up our minds to be as happy as we can +be, knowing that the way to be happy is to make others so, that +the time to be happy is now, whether that now is Sunday or any +other day in the week. + +_Question_. Under a Federal Constitution guaranteeing civil and +religious liberty, are the so-called "Blue Laws" constitutional? + +_Answer_. No, they are not. But the probability is that the +Supreme Courts of most of the States would decide the other way. +And yet all these laws are clearly contrary to the spirit of the +Federal Constitution and the constitutions of most of the States. + +I hope to live until all these foolish laws are repealed and until +we are in the highest and noblest sense a free people. And by free +I mean each having the right to do anything that does not interfere +with the rights or with the happiness of another. I want to see +the time when we live for this world and when all shall endeavor +to increase, by education, by reason, and by persuasion, the sum +of human happiness. + +--_New York Times_, July 21, 1893. + + +THE PARLIAMENT OF RELIGIONS. + +_Question_. The Parliament of Religions was called with a view to +discussing the great religions of the world on the broad platform +of tolerance. Supposing this to have been accomplished, what effect +is it likely to have on the future of creeds? + +_Answer_. It was a good thing to get the representatives of all +creeds to meet and tell their beliefs. The tendency, I think, is +to do away with prejudice, with provincialism, with egotism. We +know that the difference between the great religions, so far as +belief is concerned, amounts to but little. Their gods have +different names, but in other respects they differ but little. +They are all cruel and ignorant. + +_Question_. Do you think likely that the time is coming when all +the religions of the world will be treated with the liberality that +is now characterizing the attitude of one sect toward another in +Christendom? + +_Answer_. Yes, because I think that all religions will be found +to be of equal authority, and because I believe that the supernatural +will be discarded and that man will give up his vain and useless +efforts to get back of nature--to answer the questions of whence +and whither? As a matter of fact, the various sects do not love +one another. The keenest hatred is religious hatred. The most +malicious malice is found in the hearts of those who love their +enemies. + +_Question_. Bishop Newman, in replying to a learned Buddhist at +the Parliament of Religions, said that Buddhism had given to the +world no helpful literature, no social system, and no heroic virtues. +Is this true? + +_Answer_. Bishop Newman is a very prejudiced man. Probably he +got his information from the missionaries. Buddha was undoubtedly +a great teacher. Long before Christ lived Buddha taught the +brotherhood of man. He said that intelligence was the only lever +capable of raising mankind. His followers, to say the least of +them, are as good as the followers of Christ. Bishop Newman is a +Methodist--a follower of John Wesley--and he has the prejudices of +the sect to which he belongs. We must remember that all prejudices +are honest. + +_Question_. Is Christian society, or rather society in Christian +countries, cursed with fewer robbers, assassins, and thieves, +proportionately, then countries where "heathen" religions +predominate? + +_Answer_. I think not. I do not believe that there are more +lynchings, more mob murders in India or Turkey or Persia than in +some Christian States of the great Republic. Neither will you find +more train robbers, more forgers, more thieves in heathen lands +than in Christian countries. Here the jails are full, the +penitentiaries are crowded, and the hangman is busy. All over +Christendom, as many assert, crime is on the increase, going hand +in hand with poverty. The truth is, that some of the wisest and +best men are filled with apprehension for the future, but I believe +in the race and have confidence in man. + +_Question_. How can society be so reconstructed that all this +horrible suffering, resultant from poverty and its natural associate, +crime, may be abolished, or at least reduced to a minimum? + +_Answer_. In the first place we should stop supporting the useless. +The burden of superstition should be taken from the shoulders of +industry. In the next place men should stop bowing to wealth +instead of worth. Men should be judged by what they do, by what +they are, instead of by the property they have. Only those able +to raise and educate children should have them. Children should +be better born--better educated. The process of regeneration will +be slow, but it will be sure. The religion of our day is supported +by the worst, by the most dangerous people in society. I do not +allude to murderers or burglars, or even to the little thieves. +I mean those who debauch courts and legislatures and elections-- +those who make millions by legal fraud. + +_Question_. What do you think of the Theosophists? Are they +sincere--have they any real basis for their psychological theories? + +_Answer_. The Theosophists may be sincere. I do not know. But +I am perfectly satisfied that their theories are without any +foundation in fact--that their doctrines are as unreal as their +"astral bodies," and as absurd as a contradiction in mathematics. +We have had vagaries and theories enough. We need the religion of +the real, the faith that rests on fact. Let us turn our attention +to this world--the world in which we live. + +--_New York Herald_, September, 1893. + + +CLEVELAND'S HAWAIIAN POLICY. + +_Question_. Colonel, what do you think about Mr. Cleveland's +Hawaiian policy? + +_Answer_. I think it exceedingly laughable and a little dishonest +--with the further fault that it is wholly unconstitutional. This +is not a one-man Government, and while Liliuokalani may be Queen, +Cleveland is certainly not a king. The worst thing about the whole +matter, as it appears to me, is the bad faith that was shown by +Mr. Cleveland--the double-dealing. He sent Mr. Willis as Minister +to the Provisional Government and by that act admitted the existence, +and the rightful existence, of the Provisional Government of the +Sandwich Islands. + +When Mr. Willis started he gave him two letters. One was addressed +to Dole, President of the Provisional Government, in which he +addressed Dole as "Great and good friend," and at the close, being +a devout Christian, he asked "God to take care of Dole." This was +the first letter. The letter of one President to another; of one +friend to another. The second letter was addressed to Mr. Willis, +in which Mr. Willis was told to upset Dole at the first opportunity +and put the deposed Queen back on her throne. This may be diplomacy, +but it is no kin to honesty. + +In my judgment, it is the worst thing connected with the Hawaiian +affair. What must "the great and good" Dole think of our great +and good President? What must other nations think when they read +the two letters and mentally exclaim, "Look upon this and then upon +that?" I think Mr. Cleveland has acted arrogantly, foolishly, and +unfairly. I am in favor of obtaining the Sandwich Islands--of +course by fair means. I favor this policy because I want my country +to become a power in the Pacific. All my life I have wanted this +country to own the West Indies, the Bermudas, the Bahamas and +Barbadoes. They are our islands. They belong to this continent, +and for any other nation to take them or claim them was, and is, +a piece of impertinence and impudence. + +So I would like to see the Sandwich Islands annexed to the United +States. They are a good way from San Francisco and our Western +shore, but they are nearer to us than they are to any other nation. +I think they would be of great importance. They would tend to +increase the Asiatic trade, and they certainly would be important +in case of war. We should have fortifications on those islands +that no naval power could take. + +Some objection has been made on the ground that under our system +the people of those islands would have to be represented in Congress. +I say yes, represented by a delegate until the islands become a +real part of the country, and by that time, there would be several +hundred thousand Americans living there, capable of sending over +respectable members of Congress. + +Now, I think that Mr. Cleveland has made a very great mistake. +First, I think he was mistaken as to the facts in the Sandwich +Islands; second, as to the Constitution of the United States, and +thirdly, as to the powers of the President of the United States. + +_Question_. In your experience as a lawyer what was the most unique +case in which you were ever engaged? + +_Answer_. The Star Route trial. Every paper in the country, but +one, was against the defence, and that one was a little sheet owned +by one of the defendants. I received a note from a man living in +a little town in Ohio criticizing me for defending the accused. +In reply I wrote that I supposed he was a sensible man and that +he, of course, knew what he was talking about when he said the +accused were guilty; that the Government needed just such men as +he, and that he should come to the trial at once and testify. The +man wrote back: "Dear Colonel: I am a ---- fool." + +_Question_. Will the church and the stage ever work together for +the betterment of the world, and what is the province of each? + +_Answer_. The church and stage will never work together. The +pulpit pretends that fiction is fact. The stage pretends that +fiction is fact. The pulpit pretence is dishonest--that of the +stage is sincere. The actor is true to art, and honestly pretends +to be what he is not. The actor is natural, if he is great, and +in this naturalness is his truth and his sincerity. The pulpit is +unnatural, and for that reason untrue. The pulpit is for another +world, the stage for this. The stage is good because it is natural, +because it portrays real and actual life; because "it holds the +mirror up to nature." The pulpit is weak because it too often +belittles and demeans this life; because it slanders and calumniates +the natural and is the enemy of joy. + +--_The Inter-Ocean_, Chicago, February 2, 1894. + + +ORATORS AND ORATORY.* + +[* It was at his own law office in New York City that I had my talk +with that very notable American, Col. Robert G. Ingersoll. "Bob" +Ingersoll, Americans call him affectionately; in a company of friends +it is "The Colonel." + +A more interesting personality it would be hard to find, and those +who know even a little of him will tell you that a bigger-hearted +man probably does not live. Suppose a well-knit frame, grown +stouter than it once was, and a fine, strong face, with a vivid +gleam in the eyes, a deep, uncommonly musical voice, clear cut, +decisive, and a manner entirely delightful, yet tinged with a +certain reserve. Introduce a smoking cigar, the smoke rising in +little curls and billows, then imagine a rugged sort of picturesqueness +in dress, and you get, not by any means the man, but, still, some +notion of "Bob" Ingersoll. + +Colonel Ingersoll stands at the front of American orators. The +natural thing, therefore, was that I should ask him--a master in +the art--about oratory. What he said I shall give in his own words +precisely as I took them down from his lips, for in the case of +such a good commander of the old English tongue that is of some +importance. But the wonderful limpidness, the charming pellucidness +of Ingersoll can only be adequately understood when you also have +the finishing touch of his facile voice.] + +_Question_. I should be glad if you would tell me what you think +the differences are between English and American oratory? + +_Answer_. There is no difference between the real English and the +real American orator. Oratory is the same the world over. The +man who thinks on his feet, who has the pose of passion, the face +that thought illumines, a voice in harmony with the ideals expressed, +who has logic like a column and poetry like a vine, who transfigures +the common, dresses the ideals of the people in purple and fine +linen, who has the art of finding the best and noblest in his +hearers, and who in a thousand ways creates the climate in which +the best grows and flourishes and bursts into blossom--that man is +an orator, no matter of what time, of what country. + +_Question_. If you were to compare individual English and American +orators--recent or living orators in particular--what would you say? + +_Answer_. I have never heard any of the great English speakers, +and consequently can pass no judgment as to their merits, except +such as depends on reading. I think, however, the finest paragraph +ever uttered in Great Britain was by Curran in his defence of Rowan. +I have never read one of Mr. Gladstone's speeches, only fragments. +I think he lacks logic. Bright was a great speaker, but he lacked +imagination and the creative faculty. Disraeli spoke for the clubs, +and his speeches were artificial. We have had several fine speakers +in America. I think that Thomas Corwin stands at the top of the +natural orators. Sergeant S. Prentiss, the lawyer, was a very +great talker; Henry Ward Beecher was the greatest orator that the +pulpit has produced. Theodore Parker was a great orator. In this +country, however, probably Daniel Webster occupies the highest +place in general esteem. + +_Question_. Which would you say are the better orators, speaking +generally, the American people or the English people? + +_Answer_. I think Americans are, on the average, better talkers +than the English. I think England has produced the greatest +literature of the world; but I do not think England has produced +the greatest orators of the world. I know of no English orator +equal to Webster or Corwin or Beecher. + +_Question_. Would you mind telling me how it was you came to be +a public speaker, a lecturer, an orator? + +_Answer_. We call this America of ours free, and yet I found it +was very far from free. Our writers and our speakers declared that +here in America church and state were divorced. I found this to +be untrue. I found that the church was supported by the state in +many ways, that people who failed to believe certain portions of +the creeds were not allowed to testify in courts or to hold office. +It occurred to me that some one ought to do something toward making +this country intellectually free, and after a while I thought that +I might as well endeavor to do this as wait for another. This is +the way in which I came to make speeches; it was an action in favor +of liberty. I have said things because I wanted to say them, and +because I thought they ought to be said. + +_Question_. Perhaps you will tell me your methods as a speaker, +for I'm sure it would be interesting to know them? + +_Answer_. Sometimes, and frequently, I deliver a lecture several +times before it is written. I have it taken by a shorthand writer, +and afterward written out. At other times I have dictated a lecture, +and delivered it from manuscript. The course pursued depends on +how I happen to feel at the time. Sometimes I read a lecture, and +sometimes I deliver lectures without any notes--this, again, +depending much on how I happen to feel. So far as methods are +concerned, everything should depend on feeling. Attitude, gestures, +voice, emphasis, should all be in accord with and spring from +feeling, from the inside. + +_Question_. Is there any possibility of your coming to England, +and, I need hardly add, of your coming to speak? + +_Answer_. I have thought of going over to England, and I may do +so. There is an England in England for which I have the highest +possible admiration, the England of culture, of art, of principle. + +--_The Sketch_, London, Eng., March 21, 1894. + + +CATHOLICISM AND PROTESTANTISM. THE POPE, THE A. P. A., AGNOSTICISM +AND THE CHURCH. + +_Question_. Which do you regard as the better, Catholicism or +Protestantism? + +_Answer_. Protestantism is better than Catholicism because there +is less of it. Protestantism does not teach that a monk is better +than a husband and father, that a nun is holier than a mother. +Protestants do not believe in the confessional. Neither do they +pretend that priests can forgive sins. Protestantism has fewer +ceremonies and less opera bouffe, clothes, caps, tiaras, mitres, +crooks and holy toys. Catholics have an infallible man--an old +Italian. Protestants have an infallible book, written by Hebrews +before they were civilized. The infallible man is generally wrong, +and the infallible book is filled with mistakes and contradictions. +Catholics and Protestants are both enemies of intellectual freedom +--of real education, but both are opposed to education enough to +make free men and women. + +Between the Catholics and Protestants there has been about as much +difference as there is between crocodiles and alligators. Both +have done the worst they could, both are as bad as they can be, +and the world is getting tired of both. The world is not going to +choose either--both are to be rejected. + +_Question_. Are you willing to give your opinion of the Pope? + +_Answer_. It may be that the Pope thinks he is infallible, but I +doubt it. He may think that he is the agent of God, but I guess +not. He may know more than other people, but if he does he has +kept it to himself. He does not seem satisfied with standing in +the place and stead of God in spiritual matters, but desires temporal +power. He wishes to be Pope and King. He imagines that he has +the right to control the belief of all the world; that he is the +shepherd of all "sheep" and that the fleeces belong to him. He +thinks that in his keeping is the conscience of mankind. So he +imagines that his blessing is a great benefit to the faithful and +that his prayers can change the course of natural events. He is +a strange mixture of the serious and comical. He claims to represent +God, and admits that he is almost a prisoner. There is something +pathetic in the condition of this pontiff. When I think of him, +I think of Lear on the heath, old, broken, touched with insanity, +and yet, in his own opinion, "every inch a king." + +The Pope is a fragment, a remnant, a shred, a patch of ancient +power and glory. He is a survival of the unfittest, a souvenir of +theocracy, a relic of the supernatural. Of course he will have a +few successors, and they will become more and more comical, more +and more helpless and impotent as the world grows wise and free. +I am not blaming the Pope. He was poisoned at the breast of his +mother. Superstition was mingled with her milk. He was poisoned +at school--taught to distrust his reason and to live by faith. +And so it may be that his mind was so twisted and tortured out of +shape that he now really believes that he is the infallible agent +of an infinite God. + +_Question_. Are you in favor of the A. P. A.? + +_Answer_. In this country I see no need of secret political +societies. I think it better to fight in the open field. I am a +believer in religious liberty, in allowing all sects to preach +their doctrines and to make as many converts as they can. As long +as we have free speech and a free press I think there is no danger +of the country being ruled by any church. The Catholics are much +better than their creed, and the same can be said of nearly all +members of orthodox churches. A majority of American Catholics +think a great deal more of this country than they do of their +church. When they are in good health they are on our side. It is +only when they are very sick that they turn their eyes toward Rome. +If they were in the majority, of course, they would destroy all +other churches and imprison, torture and kill all Infidels. But +they will never be in the majority. They increase now only because +Catholics come in from other countries. In a few years that supply +will cease, and then the Catholic Church will grow weaker every +day. The free secular school is the enemy of priestcraft and +superstition, and the people of this country will never consent to +the destruction of that institution. I want no man persecuted on +account of his religion. + +_Question_. If there is no beatitude, or heaven, how do you account +for the continual struggle in every natural heart for its own +betterment? + +_Answer_. Man has many wants, and all his efforts are the children +of wants. If he wanted nothing he would do nothing. We civilize +the savage by increasing his wants, by cultivating his fancy, his +appetites, his desires. He is then willing to work to satisfy +these new wants. Man always tries to do things in the easiest way. +His constant effort is to accomplish more with less work. He +invents a machine; then he improves it, his idea being to make it +perfect. He wishes to produce the best. So in every department +of effort and knowledge he seeks the highest success, and he seeks +it because it is for his own good here in this world. So he finds +that there is a relation between happiness and conduct, and he +tries to find out what he must do to produce the greatest enjoyment. +This is the basis of morality, of law and ethics. We are so +constituted that we love proportion, color, harmony. This is the +artistic man. Morality is the harmony and proportion of conduct-- +the music of life. Man continually seeks to better his condition +--not because he is immortal--but because he is capable of grief +and pain, because he seeks for happiness. Man wishes to respect +himself and to gain the respect of others. The brain wants light, +the heart wants love. Growth is natural. The struggle to overcome +temptation, to be good and noble, brave and sincere, to reach, if +possible, the perfect, is no evidence of the immortality of the +soul or of the existence of other worlds. Men live to excel, to +become distinguished, to enjoy, and so they strive, each in his +own way, to gain the ends desired. + +_Question_. Do you believe that the race is growing moral or +immoral? + +_Answer_. The world is growing better. There is more real liberty, +more thought, more intelligence than ever before. The world was +never so charitable or generous as now. We do not put honest +debtors in prison, we no longer believe in torture. Punishments +are less severe. We place a higher value on human life. We are +far kinder to animals. To this, however, there is one terrible +exception. The vivisectors, those who cut, torture, and mutilate +in the name of science, disgrace our age. They excite the horror +and indignation of all good people. Leave out the actions of those +wretches, and animals are better treated than ever before. So +there is less beating of wives and whipping of children. The whip +in no longer found in the civilized home. Intelligent parents now +govern by kindness, love and reason. The standard of honor is +higher than ever. Contracts are more sacred, and men do nearer as +they agree. Man has more confidence in his fellow-man, and in the +goodness of human nature. Yes, the world is getting better, nobler +and grander every day. We are moving along the highway of progress +on our way to the Eden of the future. + +_Question_. Are the doctrines of Agnosticism gaining ground, and +what, in your opinion, will be the future of the church? + +_Answer_. The Agnostic is intellectually honest. He knows the +limitations of his mind. He is convinced that the questions of +origin and destiny cannot be answered by man. He knows that he +cannot answer these questions, and he is candid enough to say so. +The Agnostic has good mental manners. He does not call belief or +hope or wish, a demonstration. He knows the difference between +hope and belief--between belief and knowledge--and he keeps these +distinctions in his mind. He does not say that a certain theory +is true because he wishes it to be true. He tries to go according +to evidence, in harmony with facts, without regard to his own +desires or the wish of the public. He has the courage of his +convictions and the modesty of his ignorance. The theologian is +his opposite. He is certain and sure of the existence of things +and beings and worlds of which there is, and can be, no evidence. +He relies on assertion, and in all debate attacks the motive of +his opponent instead of answering his arguments. All savages know +the origin and destiny of man. About other things they know but +little. The theologian is much the same. The Agnostic has given +up the hope of ascertaining the nature of the "First Cause"--the +hope of ascertaining whether or not there was a "First Cause." He +admits that he does not know whether or not there is an infinite +Being. He admits that these questions cannot be answered, and so +he refuses to answer. He refuses also to pretend. He knows that +the theologian does not know, and he has the courage to say so. + +He knows that the religious creeds rest on assumption, supposition, +assertion--on myth and legend, on ignorance and superstition, and +that there is no evidence of their truth. The Agnostic bends his +energies in the opposite direction. He occupies himself with this +world, with things that can be ascertained and understood. He +turns his attention to the sciences, to the solution of questions +that touch the well-being of man. He wishes to prevent and cure +diseases; to lengthen life; to provide homes and raiment and food +for man; to supply the wants of the body. + +He also cultivates the arts. He believes in painting and sculpture, +in music and the drama--the needs of the soul. The Agnostic believes +in developing the brain, in cultivating the affections, the tastes, +the conscience, the judgment, to the end that man may be happy in +this world. He seeks to find the relation of things, the condition +of happiness. He wishes to enslave the forces of nature to the +end that they may perform the work of the world. Back of all +progress are the real thinkers; the finders of facts, those who +turn their attention to the world in which we live. The theologian +has never been a help, always a hindrance. He has always kept his +back to the sunrise. With him all wisdom was in the past. He +appealed to the dead. He was and is the enemy of reason, of +investigation, of thought and progress. The church has never given +"sanctuary" to a persecuted truth. + +There can be no doubt that the ideas of the Agnostic are gaining +ground. The scientific spirit has taken possession of the intellectual +world. Theological methods are unpopular to-day, even in theological +schools. The attention of men everywhere is being directed to the +affairs of this world, this life. The gods are growing indistinct, +and, like the shapes of clouds, they are changing as they fade. +The idea of special providence has been substantially abandoned. +People are losing, and intelligent people have lost, confidence in +prayer. To-day no intelligent person believes in miracles--a +violation of the facts in nature. They may believe that there used +to be miracles a good while ago, but not now. The "supernatural" +is losing its power, its influence, and the church is growing weaker +every day. + +The church is supported by the people, and in order to gain the +support of the people it must reflect their ideas, their hopes and +fears. As the people advance, the creeds will be changed, either +by changing the words or giving new meanings to the old words. +The church, in order to live, must agree substantially with those +who support it, and consequently it will change to any extent that +may be necessary. If the church remains true to the old standards +then it will lose the support of progressive people, and if the +people generally advance the church will die. But my opinion is +that it will slowly change, that the minister will preach what the +members want to hear, and that the creed will be controlled by the +contribution box. One of these days the preachers may become +teachers, and when that happens the church will be of use. + +_Question_. What do you regard as the greatest of all themes in +poetry and song? + +_Answer_. Love and Death. The same is true of the greatest music. +In "Tristan and Isolde" is the greatest music of love and death. +In Shakespeare the greatest themes are love and death. In all real +poetry, in all real music, the dominant, the triumphant tone, is +love, and the minor, the sad refrain, the shadow, the background, +the mystery, is death. + +_Question_. What would be your advice to an intelligent young man +just starting out in life? + +_Answer_. I would say to him: "Be true to your ideal. Cultivate +your heart and brain. Follow the light of your reason. Get all +the happiness out of life that you possibly can. Do not care for +power, but strive to be useful. First of all, support yourself so +that you may not be a burden to others. If you are successful, if +you gain a surplus, use it for the good of others. Own yourself +and live and die a free man. Make your home a heaven, love your +wife and govern your children by kindness. Be good natured, +cheerful, forgiving and generous. Find out the conditions of +happiness, and then be wise enough to live in accordance with them. +Cultivate intellectual hospitality, express your honest thoughts, +love your friends, and be just to your enemies." + +--_New York Herald_, September 16, 1894. + + +WOMAN AND HER DOMAIN. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of the effect of the multiplicity +of women's clubs as regards the intellectual, moral and domestic +status of their members? + +_Answer_. I think that women should have clubs and societies, that +they should get together and exchange ideas. Women, as a rule, +are provincial and conservative. They keep alive all the sentimental +mistakes and superstitions. Now, if they can only get away from +these, and get abreast with the tide of the times, and think as +well as feel, it will be better for them and their children. You +know St. Paul tells women that if they want to know anything they +must ask their husbands. For many centuries they have followed +this orthodox advice, and of course they have not learned a great +deal, because their husbands could not answer their questions. +Husbands, as a rule, do not know a great deal, and it will not do +for every wife to depend on the ignorance of her worst half. The +women of to-day are the great readers, and no book is a great +success unless it pleases the women. + +As a result of this, all the literature of the world has changed, +so that now in all departments the thoughts of women are taken into +consideration, and women have thoughts, because they are the +intellectual equals of men. + +There are no statesmen in this country the equals of Harriet +Martineau; probably no novelists the equals of George Eliot or +George Sand, and I think Ouida the greatest living novelist. I +think her "Ariadne" is one of the greatest novels in the English +language. There are few novels better than "Consuelo," few poems +better than "Mother and Poet." + +So in all departments women are advancing; some of them have taken +the highest honors at medical colleges; others are prominent in the +sciences, some are great artists, and there are several very fine +sculptors, &c., &c. + +So you can readily see what my opinion is on that point. + +I am in favor of giving woman all the domain she conquers, and as +the world becomes civilized the domain that she can conquer will +steadily increase. + +_Question_. But, Colonel, is there no danger of greatly interfering +with a woman's duties as wife and mother? + +_Answer_. I do not think that it is dangerous to think, or that +thought interferes with love or the duties of wife or mother. I +think the contrary is the truth; the greater the brain the greater +the power to love, the greater the power to discharge all duties +and obligations, so I have no fear for the future. About women +voting I don't care; whatever they want to do they have my consent. + +--_The Democrat_, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1894. + + +PROFESSOR SWING. + +_Question_. Since you were last in this city, Colonel, a distinguished +man has passed away in the person of Professor Swing. The public +will be interested to have your opinion of him. + +_Answer_. I think Professor Swing did a great amount of good. He +helped to civilize the church and to humanize the people. His +influence was in the right direction--toward the light. In his +youth he was acquainted with toil, poverty, and hardship; his road +was filled with thorns, and yet he lived and scattered flowers in +the paths of many people. At first his soul was in the dungeon of +a savage creed, where the windows were very small and closely +grated, and though which struggled only a few rays of light. He +longed for more light and for more liberty, and at last his fellow- +prisoners drove him forth, and from that time until his death he +did what he could to give light and liberty to the souls of men. +He was a lover of nature, poetic in his temperament, charitable +and merciful. As an orator he may have lacked presence, pose and +voice, but he did not lack force of statement or beauty of expression. +He was a man of wide learning, of great admiration of the heroic +and tender. He did what he could to raise the standard of character, +to make his fellow-men just and noble. He lost the provincialism +of his youth and became in a very noble sense a citizen of the +world. He understood that all the good is not in our race or in +our religion--that in every land there are good and noble men, self- +denying and lovely women, and that in most respects other religions +are as good as ours, and in many respects better. This gave him +breadth of intellectual horizon and enlarged his sympathy for the +failures of the world. I regard his death as a great loss, and +his life as a lesson and inspiration. + +--_Inter-Ocean_, Chicago, October 13, 1894. + + +SENATOR SHERMAN AND HIS BOOK.* + +[* No one is better qualified than Robert G. Ingersoll to talk +about Senator Sherman's book and the questions it raises in political +history. Mr. Ingersoll was for years a resident of Washington and +a next-door neighbor to Mr. Sherman; he was for an even longer period +the intimate personal friend of James G. Blaine; he knew Garfield +from almost daily contact, and of the Republican National Conventions +concerning which Senator Sherman has raised points of controversy +Mr. Ingersoll can say, as the North Carolinian said of the Confederacy: +"Part of whom I am which." + +He placed Blaine's name before the convention at Cincinnati in +1876. He made the first of the three great nominating speeches in +convention history, Conkling and Garfield making the others in 1880. + +The figure of the Plumed Knight which Mr. Ingersoll created to +characterize Mr. Blaine is part of the latter's memory. At Chicago, +four years later, when Garfield, dazed by the irresistible doubt +of the convention, was on the point of refusing that in the acceptance +of which he had no voluntary part, Ingersoll was the adviser who +showed him that duty to Sherman required no such action.] + +_Question_. What do you think of Senator Sherman's book--especially +the part about Garfield? + +_Answer_. Of course, I have only read a few extracts from Mr. +Sherman's reminiscences, but I am perfectly satisfied that the +Senator is mistaken about Garfield's course. The truth is that +Garfield captured the convention by his course from day to day, +and especially by the speech he made for Sherman. After that +speech, and it was a good one, the best Garfield ever made, the +convention said, "Speak for yourself, John." + +It was perfectly apparent that if the Blaine and Sherman forces +should try to unite, Grant would be nominated. It had to be Grant +or a new man, and that man was Garfield. It all came about without +Garfield's help, except in the way I have said. Garfield even went +so far as to declare that under no circumstances could he accept, +because he was for Sherman, and honestly for him. He told me that +he would not allow his name to go before the convention. Just +before he was nominated I wrote him a note in which I said he was +about to be nominated, and that he must not decline. I am perfectly +satisfied that he acted with perfect honor, and that he did his +best for Sherman. + +_Question_. Mr. Sherman expresses the opinion that if he had had +the "moral strength" of the Ohio delegation in his support he would +have been nominated? + +_Answer_. We all know that while Senator Sherman had many friends, +and that while many thought he would make an excellent President, +still there was but little enthusiasm among his followers. Sherman +had the respect of the party, but hardly the love. + +_Question_. In his book the Senator expresses the opinion that he +was quite close to the nomination in 1888, when Mr. Quay was for +him. Do you think that is so, Mr. Ingersoll? + +_Answer_. I think Mr. Sherman had a much better chance in 1888 +than in 1880, but as a matter of fact, he never came within hailing +distance of success at any time. He is not of the nature to sway +great bodies of men. He lacks the power to impress himself upon +others to such an extent as to make friends of enemies and devotees +of friends. Mr. Sherman has had a remarkable career, and I think +that he ought to be satisfied with what he has achieved. + +_Question_. Mr. Ingersoll, what do you think defeated Blaine for +the nomination in 1876? + +_Answer_. On the first day of the convention at Cincinnati it was +known that Blaine was the leading candidate. All of the enthusiasm +was for him. It was soon known that Conkling, Bristow or Morton +could not be nominated, and that in all probability Blaine would +succeed. The fact that Blaine had been attacked by vertigo, or +had suffered from a stroke of apoplexy, gave an argument to those +who opposed him, and this was used with great effect. After Blaine +was put in nomination, and before any vote was taken, the convention +adjourned, and during the night a great deal of work was done. +The Michigan delegation was turned inside out and the Blaine forces +raided in several States. Hayes, the dark horse, suddenly developed +speed, and the scattered forces rallied to his support. I have +always thought that if a ballot could have been taken on the day +Blaine was put in nomination he would have succeeded, and yet he +might have been defeated for the nomination anyway. + +Blaine had the warmest friends and the bitterest enemies of any +man in the party. People either loved or hated him. He had no +milk-and-water friends and no milk-and-water enemies. + +_Question_. If Blaine had been nominated at Cincinnati in 1876 +would he have made a stronger candidate than Hayes did? + +_Answer_. If he had been nominated then, I believe that he would +have been triumphantly elected. Mr. Blaine's worst enemies would +not have supported Tilden, and thousands of moderate Democrats +would have given their votes to Blaine. + +_Question_. Mr. Ingersoll, do you think that Mr. Blaine wanted +the nomination in 1884, when he got it? + +_Answer_. In 1883, Mr. Blaine told me that he did not want the +nomination. I said to him: "Is that honest?" He replied that he +did not want it, that he was tired of the whole business. I said: +"If you do not want it; if you have really reached that conclusion, +then I think you will get it." He laughed, and again said: "I do +not want it." I believe that he spoke exactly as he then felt. + +_Question_. What do you think defeated Mr. Blaine at the polls in +1884? + +_Answer_. Blaine was a splendid manager for another man, a great +natural organizer, and when acting for others made no mistake; but +he did not manage his own campaign with ability. He made a succession +of mistakes. His suit against the Indianapolis editor; his letter +about the ownership of certain stocks; his reply to Burchard and +the preachers, in which he said that history showed the church +could get along without the state, but the state could not get +along without the church, and this in reply to the "Rum, Romanism and +Rebellion" nonsense; and last, but not least, his speech to the +millionaires in New York--all of these things weakened him. As a +matter of fact many Catholics were going to support Blaine, but +when they saw him fooling with the Protestant clergy, and accepting +the speech of Burchard, they instantly turned against him. If he +had never met Burchard, I think he would have been elected. His +career was something like that of Mr. Clay; he was the most popular +man of his party and yet---- + +_Question_. How do you account for Mr. Blaine's action in allowing +his name to go before the convention at Minneapolis in 1892? + +_Answer_. In 1892, Mr. Blaine was a sick man, almost worn out; he +was not his former self, and he was influenced by others. He seemed +to have lost his intuition; he was misled, yet in spite of all +defeats, no name will create among Republicans greater enthusiasm +than that of James G. Blaine. Millions are still his devoted, +unselfish and enthusiastic friends and defenders. + +--_The Globe-Democrat_, St. Louis, October 27, 1895. + + +REPLY TO THE CHRISTIAN ENDEAVORERS. + +_Question_. How were you affected by the announcement that the +united prayers of the Salvationists and Christian Endeavorers were +to be offered for your conversion? + +_Answer_. The announcement did not affect me to any great extent. +I take it for granted that the people praying for me are sincere +and that they have a real interest in my welfare. Of course, I +thank them one and all. At the same time I can hardly account for +what they did. Certainly they would not ask God to convert me +unless they thought the prayer could be answered. And if their +God can convert me of course he can convert everybody. Then the +question arises why he does not do it. Why does he let millions +go to hell when he can convert them all. Why did he not convert +them all before the flood and take them all to heaven instead of +drowning them and sending them all to hell. Of course these +questions can be answered by saying that God's ways are not our +ways. I am greatly obliged to these people. Still, I feel about +the same, so that it would be impossible to get up a striking +picture of "before and after." It was good-natured on their part +to pray for me, and that act alone leads me to believe that there +is still hope for them. The trouble with the Christian Endeavorers +is that they don't give my arguments consideration. If they did +they would agree with me. It seemed curious that they would advise +divine wisdom what to do, or that they would ask infinite mercy to +treat me with kindness. If there be a God, of course he knows what +ought to be done, and will do it without any hints from ignorant +human beings. Still, the Endeavorers and the Salvation people may +know more about God than I do. For all I know, this God may need +a little urging. He may be powerful but a little slow; intelligent +but sometimes a little drowsy, and it may do good now and then to +call his attention to the facts. The prayers did not, so far as +I know, do me the least injury or the least good. I was glad to +see that the Christians are getting civilized. A few years ago +they would have burned me. Now they pray for me. + +Suppose God should answer the prayers and convert me, how would he +bring the conversion about? In the first place, he would have to +change my brain and give me more credulity--that is, he would be +obliged to lessen my reasoning power. Then I would believe not +only without evidence, but in spite of evidence. All the miracles +would appear perfectly natural. It would then seem as easy to +raise the dead as to waken the sleeping. In addition to this, God +would so change my mind that I would hold all reason in contempt +and put entire confidence in faith. I would then regard science +as the enemy of human happiness, and ignorance as the soil in which +virtues grow. Then I would throw away Darwin and Humboldt, and +rely on the sermons of orthodox preachers. In other words, I would +become a little child and amuse myself with a religious rattle and +a Gabriel horn. Then I would rely on a man who has been dead for +nearly two thousand years to secure me a seat in Paradise. + +After conversion, it is not pretended that I will be any better so +far as my actions are concerned; no more charitable, no more honest, +no more generous. The great difference will be that I will believe +more and think less. + +After all, the converted people do not seem to be better than the +sinners. I never heard of a poor wretch clad in rags, limping into +a town and asking for the house of a Christian. + +I think that I had better remain as I am. I had better follow the +light of my reason, be true to myself, express my honest thoughts, +and do the little I can for the destruction of superstition, the +little I can for the development of the brain, for the increase of +intellectual hospitality and the happiness of my fellow-beings. +One world at a time. + +--_New York Journal_, December 15, 1895. + + +SPIRITUALISM. + +There are several good things about Spiritualism. First, they are +not bigoted; second, they do not believe in salvation by faith; +third, they don't expect to be happy in another world because Christ +was good in this; fourth, they do not preach the consolation of +hell; fifth, they do not believe in God as an infinite monster; +sixth, the Spiritualists believe in intellectual hospitality. In +these respects they differ from our Christian brethren, and in +these respects they are far superior to the saints. + +I think that the Spiritualists have done good. They believe in +enjoying themselves--in having a little pleasure in this world. +They are social, cheerful and good-natured. They are not the slaves +of a book. Their hands and feet are not tied with passages of +Scripture. They are not troubling themselves about getting +forgiveness and settling their heavenly debts for a cent on the +dollar. Their belief does not make then mean or miserable. + +They do not persecute their neighbors. They ask no one to have +faith or to believe without evidence. They ask all to investigate, +and then to make up their minds from the evidence. Hundreds and +thousands of well-educated, intelligent people are satisfied with +the evidence and firmly believe in the existence of spirits. For +all I know, they may be right--but---- + +_Question_. The Spiritualists have indirectly claimed, that you +were in many respects almost one of them. Have you given them +reason to believe so? + +_Answer_. I am not a Spiritualist, and have never pretended to +be. The Spiritualists believe in free thought, in freedom of +speech, and they are willing to hear the other side--willing to +hear me. The best thing about the Spiritualists is that they +believe in intellectual hospitality. + +_Question_. Is Spiritualism a religion or a truth? + +_Answer_. I think that Spiritualism may properly be called a +religion. It deals with two worlds--teaches the duty of man to +his fellows--the relation that this life bears to the next. It +claims to be founded on facts. It insists that the "dead" converse +with the living, and that information is received from those who +once lived in this world. Of the truth of these claims I have no +sufficient evidence. + +_Question_. Are all mediums impostors? + +_Answer_. I will not say that all mediums are impostors, because +I do not know. I do not believe that these mediums get any +information or help from "spirits." I know that for thousands of +years people have believed in mediums--in Spiritualism. A spirit +in the form of a man appeared to Samson's mother, and afterward to +his father. + +Spirits, or angels, called on Abraham. The witch of Endor raised +the ghost of Samuel. An angel appeared with three men in the +furnace. The handwriting on the wall was done by a spirit. A +spirit appeared to Joseph in a dream, to the wise men and to Joseph +again. + +So a spirit, an angel or a god, spoke to Saul, and the same happened +to Mary Magdalene. + +The religious literature of the world is filled with such things. +Take Spiritualism from Christianity and the whole edifice crumbles. +All religions, so far as I know, are based on Spiritualism--on +communications received from angels, from spirits. + +I do not say that all the mediums, ancient and modern, were, and +are, impostors--but I do think that all the honest ones were, and +are, mistaken. I do not believe that man has ever received any +communication from angels, spirits or gods. No whisper, as I +believe, has ever come from any other world. The lips of the dead +are always closed. From the grave there has come no voice. For +thousands of years people have been questioning the dead. They +have tried to catch the whisper of a vanished voice. Many say that +they have succeeded. I do not know. + +_Question_. What is the explanation of the startling knowledge +displayed by some so-called "mediums" of the history and personal +affairs of people who consult them? Is there any such thing as +mind-reading or thought-transference? + +_Answer_. In a very general way, I suppose that one person may +read the thought of another--not definitely, but by the expression +of the face, by the attitude of the body, some idea may be obtained +as to what a person thinks, what he intends. So thought may be +transferred by look or language, but not simply by will. Everything +that is, is natural. Our ignorance is the soil in which mystery +grows. I do not believe that thoughts are things that can been +seen or touched. Each mind lives in a world of its own, a world +that no other mind can enter. Minds, like ships at sea, give signs +and signals to each other, but they do not exchange captains. + +_Question_. Is there any such thing as telepathy? What is the +explanation of the stories of mental impressions received at long +distances? + +_Answer_. There are curious coincidences. People sometimes happen +to think of something that is taking place at a great distance. +The stories about these happenings are not very well authenticated, +and seem never to have been of the least use to anyone. + +_Question_. Can these phenomena be considered aside from any +connection with, or form of, superstition? + +_Answer_. I think that mistake, emotion, nervousness, hysteria, +dreams, love of the wonderful, dishonesty, ignorance, grief and +the longing for immortality--the desire to meet the loved and lost, +the horror of endless death--account for these phenomena. People +often mistake their dreams for realities--often think their thoughts +have "happened." They live in a mental mist, a mirage. The boundary +between the actual and the imagined becomes faint, wavering and +obscure. They mistake clouds for mountains. The real and the +unreal mix and mingle until the impossible becomes common, and the +natural absurd. + +_Question_. Do you believe that any sane man ever had a vision? + +_Answer_. Of course, the sane and insane have visions, dreams. +I do not believe that any man, sane or insane, was ever visited by +an angel or spirit, or ever received any information from the dead. + +_Question_. Setting aside from consideration the so-called physical +manifestations of the mediums, has Spiritualism offered any proof +of the immortality of the soul? + +_Answer_. Of course Spiritualism offers what it calls proof of +immortality. That is its principal business. Thousands and +thousands of good, honest, intelligent people think the proof +sufficient. They receive what they believe to be messages from +the departed, and now and then the spirits assume their old forms +--including garments--and pass through walls and doors as light +passes through glass. Do these things really happen? If the +spirits of the dead do return, then the fact of another life is +established. It all depends on the evidence. Our senses are easily +deceived, and some people have more confidence in their reason than +in their senses. + +_Question_. Do you not believe that such a man as Robert Dale Owen +was sincere? What was the real state of mind of the author of +"Footfalls on the Boundaries of Another World"? + +_Answer_. Without the slightest doubt, Robert Dale Owen was sincere. +He was one of the best of men. His father labored all his life +for the good of others. Robert Owen, the father, had a debate, in +Cincinnati, with the Rev. Alexander Campbell, the founder of the +Campbellite Church. Campbell was no match for Owen, and yet the +audience was almost unanimously against Owen. + +Robert Dale Owen was an intelligent, thoughtful, honest man. He +was deceived by several mediums, but remained a believer. He wanted +Spiritualism to be true. He hungered and thirsted for another +life. He explained everything that was mysterious or curious by +assuming the interference of spirits. He was a good man, but a +poor investigator. He thought that people were all honest. + +_Question_. What do you understand the Spiritualist means when he +claims that the soul goes to the "Summer land," and there continues +to work and evolute to higher planes? + +_Answer_. No one pretends to know where "heaven" is. The celestial +realm is the blessed somewhere in the unknown nowhere. So far as +I know, the "Summer land" has no metes and bounds, and no one +pretends to know exactly or inexactly where it is. After all, the +"Summer land" is a hope--a wish. Spiritualists believe that a soul +leaving this world passes into another, or into another state, and +continues to grow in intelligence and virtue, if it so desires. + +Spiritualists claim to prove that there is another life. Christians +believe this, but their witnesses have been dead for many centuries. +They take the "hearsay" of legend and ancient gossip; but Spiritualists +claim to have living witnesses; witnesses that can talk, make music; +that can take to themselves bodies and shake hands with the people +they knew before they passed to the "other shore." + +_Question_. Has Spiritualism, through its mediums, ever told the +world anything useful, or added to the store of the world's knowledge, +or relieved its burdens? + +_Answer_. I do not know that any medium has added to the useful +knowledge of the world, unless mediums have given evidence of +another life. Mediums have told us nothing about astronomy, geology +or history, have made no discoveries, no inventions, and have +enriched no art. The same may be said of every religion. + +All the orthodox churches believe in Spiritualism. Every now and +then the Virgin appears to some peasant, and in the old days the +darkness was filled with evil spirits. Christ was a Spiritualist, +and his principal business was the casting out of devils. All of +his disciples, all of the church fathers, all of the saints were +believers in Spiritualism of the lowest and most ignorant type. +During the Middle Ages people changed themselves, with the aid of +spirits, into animals. They became wolves, dogs, cats and donkeys. +In those day all the witches and wizards were mediums. So animals +were sometimes taken possession of by spirits, the same as Balaam's +donkey and Christ's swine. Nothing was too absurd for the +Christians. + +_Question_. Has not Spiritualism added to the world's stock of +hope? And in what way has not Spiritualism done good? + +_Answer_. The mother holding in her arms her dead child, believing +that the babe has simply passed to another life, does not weep as +bitterly as though she thought that death was the eternal end. A +belief in Spiritualism must be a consolation. You see, the +Spiritualists do not believe in eternal pain, and consequently a +belief in immortality does not fill their hearts with fear. + +Christianity makes eternal life an infinite horror, and casts the +glare of hell on almost every grave. + +The Spiritualists appear to be happy in their belief. I have never +known a happy orthodox Christian. + +It is natural to shun death, natural to desire eternal life. With +all my heart I hope for everlasting life and joy--a life without +failures, without crimes and tears. + +If immortality could be established, the river of life would overflow +with happiness. The faces of prisoners, of slaves, of the deserted, +of the diseased and starving would be radiant with smiles, and the +dull eyes of despair would glow with light. + +If it could be established. + +Let us hope. + +--_The Journal_, New York, July 26, 1896. + + +A LITTLE OF EVERYTHING. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of the position taken by the +United States in the Venezuelan dispute? How should the dispute +be settled? + +_Answer_. I do not think that we have any interest in the dispute +between Venezuela and England. It was and is none of our business. +The Monroe doctrine was not and is not in any way involved. Mr. +Cleveland made a mistake and so did Congress. + +_Question_. What should be the attitude of the church toward the +stage? + +_Answer_. It should be, what it always has been, against it. If +the orthodox churches are right, then the stage is wrong. The +stage makes people forget hell; and this puts their souls in peril. +There will be forever a conflict between Shakespeare and the Bible. + +_Question_. What do you think of the new woman? + +_Answer_. I like her. + +_Question_. Where rests the responsibility for the Armenian +atrocities? + +_Answer_. Religion is the cause of the hatred and bloodshed. + +_Question_. What do you think of international marriages, as +between titled foreigners and American heiresses? + +_Answer_. My opinion is the same as is entertained by the American +girl after the marriages. It is a great mistake. + +_Question_. What do you think of England's Poet Laureate, Alfred +Austin? + +_Answer_. I have only read a few of his lines and they were not +poetic. The office of Poet Laureate should be abolished. Men +cannot write poems to order as they could deliver cabbages or beer. +By poems I do not mean jingles of words. I mean great thoughts +clothed in splendor. + +_Question_. What is your estimate of Susan B. Anthony? + +_Answer_. Miss Anthony is one of the most remarkable women in the +world. She has the enthusiasm of youth and spring, the courage +and sincerity of a martyr. She is as reliable as the attraction +of gravitation. She is absolutely true to her conviction, +intellectually honest, logical, candid and infinitely persistent. +No human being has done more for women than Miss Anthony. She has +won the respect and admiration of the best people on the earth. +And so I say: Good luck and long life to Susan B. Anthony. + +_Question_. Which did more for his country, George Washington or +Abraham Lincoln? + +_Answer_. In my judgment, Lincoln was the greatest man ever +President. I put him above Washington and Jefferson. He had the +genius of goodness; and he was one of the wisest and shrewdest of +men. Lincoln towers above them all. + +_Question_. What gave rise to the report that you had been converted +--did you go to church somewhere? + +_Answer_. I visited the "People's Church" in Kalamazoo, Michigan. +This church has no creed. The object is to make people happy in +this world. Miss Bartlett is the pastor. She is a remarkable +woman and is devoting her life to good work. I liked her church +and said so. This is all. + +_Question_. Are there not some human natures so morally weak or +diseased that they cannot keep from sin without the aid of some +sort of religion? + +_Answer_. I do not believe that the orthodox religion helps anybody +to be just, generous or honest. Superstition is not the soil in +which goodness grows. Falsehood is poor medicine. + +_Question_. Would you consent to live in any but a Christian +community? If you would, please name one. + +_Answer_. I would not live in a community where all were orthodox +Christians. I would rather dwell in Central Africa. If I could +have my choice I would rather live among people who were free, who +sought for truth and lived according to reason. Sometime there +will be such a community. + +_Question_. Is the noun "United States" singular or plural, as +you use English? + +_Answer_. I use it in the singular. + +_Question_. Have you read Nordau's "Degeneracy"? If so, what do +you think of it? + +_Answer_. I think it is substantially insane. + +_Question_. What do you think of Bishop Doane's advocacy of free +rum as a solution of the liquor problem? + +_Answer_. I am a believer in liberty. All the temperance legislation, +all the temperance societies, all the agitation, all these things +have done no good. + +_Question_. Do you agree with Mr. Carnegie that a college education +is of little or no practical value to a man? + +_Answer_. A man must have education. It makes no difference where +or how he gets it. To study the dead languages is time wasted so +far as success in business is concerned. Most of the colleges in +this country are poor because controlled by theologians. + +_Question_. What suggestion would you make for the improvement of +the newspapers of this country? + +_Answer_. Every article in a newspaper should be signed by the +writer. And all writers should do their best to tell the exact +facts. + +_Question_. What do you think of Niagara Falls? + +_Answer_. It is a dangerous place. Those great rushing waters-- +there is nothing attractive to me in them. There is so much noise; +so much tumult. It is simply a mighty force of nature--one of +those tremendous powers that is to be feared for its danger. What +I like in nature is a cultivated field, where men can work in the +free open air, where there is quiet and repose--no turmoil, no +strife, no tumult, no fearful roar or struggle for mastery. I do +not like the crowded, stuffy workshop, where life is slavery and +drudgery. Give me the calm, cultivated land of waving grain, of +flowers, of happiness. + +_Question_. What is worse than death? + +_Answer_. Oh, a great many things. To be dishonored. To be +worthless. To feel that you are a failure. To be insane. To be +constantly afraid of the future. To lose the ones you love. + +--_The Herald_, Rochester, New York, February 25, 1896. + + +IS LIFE WORTH LIVING--CHRISTIAN SCIENCE AND POLITICS. + +_Question_. With all your experiences, the trials, the responsibilities, +the disappointments, the heartburnings, Colonel, is life worth +living? + +_Answer_. Well, I can only answer for myself. I like to be alive, +to breathe the air, to look at the landscape, the clouds and stars, +to repeat old poems, to look at pictures and statues, to hear music, +the voices of the ones I love. I like to talk with my wife, my +girls, my grandchildren. I like to sleep and to dream. Yes, you +can say that life, to me, is worth living. + +_Question_. Colonel, did you ever kill any game? + +_Answer_. When I was a boy I killed two ducks, and it hurt me as +much as anything I ever did. No, I would not kill any living +creature. I am sometimes tempted to kill a mosquito on my hand, +but I stop and think what a wonderful construction it has, and shoo +it away. + +_Question_. What do you think of political parties, Colonel? + +_Answer_. In a country where the sovereignty is divided among the +people, that is to say, among the men, in order to accomplish +anything, many must unite, and I believe in joining the party that +is going the nearest your way. I do not believe in being the slave +or serf or servant of a party. Go with it if it is going your +road, and when the road forks, take the one that leads to the place +you wish to visit, no matter whether the party goes that way or +not. I do not believe in belonging to a party or being the property +of any organization. I do not believe in giving a mortgage on +yourself or a deed of trust for any purpose whatever. It is better +to be free and vote wrong than to be a slave and vote right. I +believe in taking the chances. At the same time, as long as a +party is going my way, I believe in placing that party above +particular persons, and if that party nominates a man that I despise, +I will vote for him if he is going my way. I would rather have a +bad man belonging to my party in place, than a good man belonging +to the other, provided my man believes in my principles, and to +that extent I believe in party loyalty. + +Neither do I join in the general hue and cry against bosses. There +has always got to be a leader, even in a flock of wild geese. If +anything is to be accomplished, no matter what, somebody takes the +lead and the others allow him to go on. In that way political +bosses are made, and when you hear a man howling against bosses at +the top of his lungs, distending his cheeks to the bursting point, +you may know that he has ambition to become a boss. + +I do not belong to the Republican party, but I have been going with +it, and when it goes wrong I shall quit, unless the other is worse. +There is no office, no place, that I want, and as it does not cost +anything to be right, I think it better to be that way. + +_Question_. What is your idea of Christian Science? + +_Answer_. I think it is superstition, pure and unadulterated. I +think that soda will cure a sour stomach better than thinking. In +my judgment, quinine is a better tonic than meditation. Of course +cheerfulness is good and depression bad, but if you can absolutely +control the body and all its functions by thought, what is the use +of buying coal? Let the mercury go down and keep yourself hot by +thinking. What is the use of wasting money for food? Fill your +stomach with think. According to these Christian Science people +all that really exists is an illusion, and the only realities are +the things that do not exist. They are like the old fellow in +India who said that all things were illusions. One day he was +speaking to a crowd on his favorite hobby. Just as he said "all +is illusion" a fellow on an elephant rode toward him. The elephant +raised his trunk as though to strike, thereupon the speaker ran +away. Then the crowd laughed. In a few moments the speaker +returned. The people shouted: "If all is illusion, what made you +run away?" The speaker replied: "My poor friends, I said all is +illusion. I say so still. There was no elephant. I did not run +away. You did not laugh, and I am not explaining now. All is +illusion." + +That man must have been a Christian Scientist. + +--_The Inter-Ocean_, Chicago, November, 1897. + + +VIVISECTION. + +_Question_. Why are you so utterly opposed to vivisection? + +_Answer_. Because, as it is generally practiced, it is an unspeakable +cruelty. Because it hardens the hearts and demoralizes those who +inflict useless and terrible pains on the bound and helpless. If +these vivisectionists would give chloroform or ether to the animals +they dissect; if they would render them insensible to pain, and +if, by cutting up these animals, they could learn anything worth +knowing, no one would seriously object. + +The trouble is that these doctors, these students, these professors, +these amateurs, do not give anesthetics. They insist that to render +the animal insensible does away with the value of the experiment. +They care nothing for the pain they inflict. They are so eager to +find some fact that will be of benefit to the human race, that they +are utterly careless of the agony endured. + +Now, what I say is that no decent man, no gentleman, no civilized +person, would vivisect an animal without first having rendered +that animal insensible to pain. The doctor, the scientist, who +puts his knives, forceps, chisels and saws into the flesh, bones +and nerves of an animal without having used an anesthetic, is a +savage, a pitiless, heartless monster. When he says he does this +for the good of man, because he wishes to do good, he says what is +not true. No such man wants to do good; he commits the crime for +his own benefit and because he wishes to gratify an insane cruelty +or to gain a reputation among like savages. + +These scientists now insist that they have done some good. They +do not tell exactly what they have done. The claim is general in +its character--not specific. If they have done good, could they +not have done just as much if they had used anesthetics? Good is +not the child of cruelty. + +_Question_. Do you think that the vivisectionists do their work +without anesthetics? Do they not, as a rule, give something to +deaden pain? + +_Answer_. Here is what the trouble is. Now and then one uses +chloroform, but the great majority do not. They claim that it +interferes with the value of the experiment, and, as I said before, +they object to the expense. Why should they care for what the +animals suffer? They inflict the most horrible and useless pain, +and they try the silliest experiments--experiments of no possible +use or advantage. + +For instance: They flay a dog to see how long he can live without +his skin. Is this trifling experiment of any importance? Suppose +the dog can live a week or a month or a year, what then? What must +the real character of the scientific wretch be who would try an +experiment like this? Is such a man seeking the good of his fellow- +men? + +So, these scientists starve animals until they slowly die; watch +them from day to day as life recedes from the extremities, and +watch them until the final surrender, to see how long the heart +will flutter without food; without water. They keep a diary of +their sufferings, of their whinings and moanings, of their insanity. +And this diary is published and read with joy and eagerness by +other scientists in like experiments. Of what possible use is it +to know how long a dog or horse can live without food? + +So, they take animals, dogs and horses, cut through the flesh with +the knife, remove some of the back bone with the chisel, then divide +the spinal marrow, then touch it with red hot wires for the purpose +of finding, as they say, the connection of nerves; and the animal, +thus vivisected, is left to die. + +A good man will not voluntarily inflict pain. He will see that +his horse has food, if he can procure it, and if he cannot procure +the food, he will end the sufferings of the animal in the best and +easiest way. So, the good man would rather remain in ignorance as +to how pain is transmitted than to cut open the body of a living +animal, divide the marrow and torture the nerves with red hot iron. +Of what use can it be to take a dog, tie him down and cut out one +of his kidneys to see if he can live with the other? + +These horrors are perpetrated only by the cruel and the heartless +--so cruel and so heartless that they are utterly unfit to be +trusted with a human life. They innoculate animals with a virus +of disease; they put poison in their eyes until rottenness destroys +the sight; until the poor brutes become insane. They given them +a disease that resembles hydrophobia, that is accompanied by the +most frightful convulsions and spasms. They put them in ovens to +see what degree of heat it is that kills. They also try the effect +of cold; they slowly drown them; they poison them with the venom +of snakes; they force foreign substances into their blood, and, by +inoculation, into their eyes; and then watch and record their +agonies; their sufferings. + +_Question_. Don't you think that some good has been accomplished, +some valuable information obtained, by vivisection? + +_Answer_. I don't think any valuable information has been obtained +by the vivisection of animals without chloroform that could not +have been obtained with chloroform. And to answer the question +broadly as to whether any good has been accomplished by vivisection, +I say no. + +According to the best information that I can obtain, the vivisectors +have hindered instead of helped. Lawson Tait, who stands at the +head of his profession in England, the best surgeon in Great Britain, +says that all this cutting and roasting and freezing and torturing +of animals has done harm instead of good. He says publicly that +the vivisectors have hindered the progress of surgery. He declares +that they have not only done no good, but asserts that they have +done only harm. The same views according to Doctor Tait, are +entertained by Bell, Syme and Fergusson. + +Many have spoken of Darwin as though he were a vivisector. This +is not true. All that has been accomplished by these torturers of +dumb and helpless animals amounts to nothing. We have obtained +from these gentlemen Koch's cure for consumption, Pasteur's factory +of hydrophobia and Brown-Sequard's elixir of life. These three +failures, gigantic, absurd, ludicrous, are the great accomplishment +of vivisection. + +Surgery has advanced, not by the heartless tormentors of animals, +but by the use of anesthetics--that is to say, chloroform, ether +and cocaine. The cruel wretches, the scientific assassins, have +accomplished nothing. Hundreds of thousands of animals have suffered +every pain that nerves can feel, and all for nothing--nothing except +to harden the heart and to make criminals of men. + +They have not given anesthetics to these animals, but they have +been guilty of the last step in cruelty. They have given curare, +a drug that attacks the centers of motion, that makes it impossible +for the animal to move, so that when under its influence, no matter +what the pain may be, the animal lies still. This curare not only +destroys the power of motion, but increases the sensitiveness of +the nerves. To give this drug and then to dissect the living animal +is the extreme of cruelty. Beyond this, heartlessness cannot go. + +_Question_. Do you know that you have been greatly criticized for +what you have said on this subject? + +_Answer_. Yes; I have read many criticisms; but what of that. It +is impossible for the ingenuity of man to say anything in defence +of cruelty--of heartlessness. So, it is impossible for the defenders +of vivisection to show any good that has been accomplished without +the use of anesthetics. The chemist ought to be able to determine +what is and what is not poison. There is no need of torturing the +animals. So, this giving to animals diseases is of no importance +to man--not the slightest; and nothing has been discovered in +bacteriology so far that has been of use or that is of benefit. + +Personally, I admit that all have the right to criticise; and my +answer to the critics is, that they do not know the facts; or, +knowing them, they are interested in preventing a knowledge of +these facts coming to the public. Vivisection should be controlled +by law. No animal should be allowed to be tortured. And to cut +up a living animal not under the influence of chloroform or ether, +should be a penitentiary offence. + +A perfect reply to all the critics who insist that great good has +been done is to repeat the three names--Koch, Pasteur and Brown- +Sequard. + +The foundation of civilization is not cruelty; it is justice, +generosity, mercy. + +--_Evening Telegram_, New York, September 30, 1893. + + +DIVORCE. + +_Question_. The _Herald_ would like to have you give your ideas +on divorce. On last Sunday in your lecture you said a few words +on the subject, but only a few. Do you think the laws governing +divorce ought to be changed? + +_Answer_. We obtained our ideas about divorce from the Hebrews-- +from the New Testament and the church. In the Old Testament woman +is not considered of much importance. The wife was the property +of the husband. + +"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's ox or his wife." In this +commandment the wife is put on an equality with other property, so +under certain conditions the husband could put away his wife, but +the wife could not put away her husband. + +In the New Testament there is little in favor of marriage, and +really nothing as to the rights of wives. Christ said nothing in +favor of marriage, and never married. So far as I know, none of +the apostles had families. St. Paul was opposed to marriage, and +allowed it only as a choice of evils. In those days it was imagined +by the Christians that the world was about to be purified by fire, +and that they would be changed into angels. + +The early Christians were opposed to marriage, and the "fathers" +looked upon woman as the source of all evil. They did not believe +in divorces. They thought that if people loved each other better +than they did God, and got married, they ought to be held to the +bargain, no matter what happened. + +These "fathers" were, for the most part, ignorant and hateful +savages, and had no more idea of right and wrong than wild beasts. + +The church insisted that marriage was a sacrament, and that God, +in some mysterious way, joined husband and wife in marriage--that +he was one of the parties to the contract, and that only death +could end it. + +Of course, this supernatural view of marriage is perfectly absurd. +If there be a God, there certainly have been marriages he did not +approve, and certain it is that God can have no interest in keeping +husbands and wives together who never should have married. + +Some of the preachers insist that God instituted marriage in the +Garden of Eden. We now know that there was no Garden of Eden, and +that woman was not made from the first man's rib. Nobody with any +real sense believes this now. The institution of marriage was not +established by Jehovah. Neither was it established by Christ, not +any of his apostles. + +In considering the question of divorce, the supernatural should be +discarded. We should take into consideration only the effect upon +human beings. The gods should be allowed to take care of +themselves. + +Is it to the interest of a husband and wife to live together after +love has perished and when they hate each other? Will this add to +their happiness? Should a woman be compelled to remain the wife +of a man who hates and abuses her, and whom she loathes? Has +society any interest in forcing women to live with men they hate? + +There is no real marriage without love, and in the marriage state +there is no morality without love. A woman who remains the wife +of a man whom she despises, or does not love, corrupts her soul. +She becomes degraded, polluted, and feels that her flesh has been +soiled. Under such circumstances a good woman suffers the agonies +of moral death. It may be said that the woman can leave her husband; +that she is not compelled to live in the same house or to occupy +the same room. If she has the right to leave, has she the right +to get a new house? Should a woman be punished for having married? +Women do not marry the wrong men on purpose. Thousands of mistakes +are made--are these mistakes sacred? Must they be preserved to +please God? + +What good can it do God to keep people married who hate each other? +What good can it do the community to keep such people together? + +_Question_. Do you consider marriage a contract or a sacrament? + +_Answer_. Marriage is the most important contract that human beings +can make. No matter whether it is called a contract or a sacrament, +it remains the same. A true marriage is a natural concord or +agreement of souls--a harmony in which discord is not even imagined. +It is a mingling so perfect that only one seems to exist. All +other considerations are lost. The present seems eternal. In this +supreme moment there is no shadow, or the shadow is as luminous as +light. + +When two beings thus love, thus united, this is the true marriage +of soul and soul. The idea of contract is lost. Duty and obligation +are instantly changed into desire and joy, and two lives, like +uniting streams, flow on as one. + +This is real marriage. + +Now, if the man turns out to be a wild beast, if he destroys the +happiness of the wife, why should she remain his victim? + +If she wants a divorce, she should have it. The divorce will not +hurt God or the community. As a matter of fact, it will save a +life. + +No man not poisoned by superstition will object to the release of +an abused wife. In such a case only savages can object to divorce. +The man who wants courts and legislatures to force a woman to live +with him is a monster. + +_Question_. Do you believe that the divorced should be allowed to +marry again? + +_Answer_. Certainly. Has the woman whose rights have been outraged +no right to build another home? Must this woman, full of kindness, +affection and health, be chained until death releases her? Is +there no future for her? Must she be an outcast forever? Can she +never sit by her own hearth, with the arms of her children about +her neck, and by her side a husband who loves and protects her? + +There are no two sides to this question. + +All human beings should be allowed to correct their mistakes. If +the wife has flagrantly violated the contract of marriage, the +husband should be given a divorce. If the wife wants a divorce, +if she loathes her husband, if she no longer loves him, then the +divorce should be granted. + +It is immoral for a woman to live as the wife of a man whom she +abhors. The home should be pure. Children should be well-born. +Their parents should love one another. + +Marriages are made by men and women, not by society, not by the +state, not by the church, not by the gods. Nothing is moral, that +does not tend to the well-being of sentient beings. + +The good home is the unit of good government. The hearthstone is +the corner-stone of civilization. Society is not interested in +the preservation of hateful homes. It is not to the interest of +society that good women should be enslaved or that they should +become mothers by husbands whom they hate. + +Most of the laws about divorce are absurd or cruel, and ought to +be repealed. + +--_The Herald_, New York, February, 1897. + + +MUSIC, NEWSPAPERS, LYNCHING AND ARBITRATION. + +_Question_. How do you enjoy staying in Chicago? + +_Answer_. Well, I am about as happy as a man can be when he is +away from home. I was at the opera last night. I am always happy +when I hear the music of Wagner interpreted by such a genius as +Seidl. I do not believe there is a man in the world who has in +his brain and heart more of the real spirit of Wagner than Anton +Seidl. He knows how to lead, how to phrase and shade, how to rush +and how to linger, and to express every passion and every mood. So +I was happy last night to hear him. Then I heard Edouard de Reszke, +the best of bass singers, with tones of a great organ, and others +soft and liquid, and Jean de Reszke, a great tenor, who sings the +"Swan Song" as though inspired; and I liked Bispham, but hated his +part. He is a great singer; so is Mme. Litvinne. + +So, I can say that I am enjoying Chicago. In fact, I always did. +I was here when the town was small, not much more than huts and +hogs, lumber and mud; and now it is one of the greatest of cities. +It makes me happy just to think of the difference. I was born the +year Chicago was incorporated. In my time matches were invented. +Steam navigation became really useful. The telegraph was invented. +Gas was discovered and applied to practical uses, and electricity +was made known in its practical workings to mankind. Thus, it is +seen the world is progressing; men are becoming civilized. But +the process of civilization even now is slow. In one or two thousand +years we may hope to see a vast improvement in man's condition. +We may expect to have the employer so far civilized that he will +not try to make money for money's sake, but in order that he may +apply it to good uses, to the amelioration of his fellow-man's +condition. We may also expect the see the workingman, the employee, +so far civilized that he will know it is impossible and undesirable +for him to attempt to fix the wages paid by his employer. We may +in a thousand or more years reasonably expect that the employee +will be so far civilized and become sufficiently sensible to know +that strikes and threats and mob violence can never improve his +condition. Altruism is nonsense, craziness. + +_Question_. Is Chicago as liberal, intellectually, as New York? + +_Answer_. I think so. Of course you will find thousands of free, +thoughtful people in New York--people who think and want others to +do the same. So, there are thousands of respectable people who +are centuries behind the age. In other words, you will find all +kinds. I presume the same is true of Chicago. I find many liberal +people here, and some not quite so liberal. + +Some of the papers here seem to be edited by real pious men. On +last Tuesday the _Times-Herald_ asked pardon of its readers for +having given a report of my lecture. That editor must be pious. +In the same paper, columns were given to the prospective prize- +fight at Carson City. All the news about the good Corbett and the +orthodox Fitzsimmons--about the training of the gentlemen who are +going to attack each others' jugulars and noses; who are expected +to break jaws, blacken eyes, and peel foreheads in a few days, to +settle the question of which can bear the most pounding. In this +great contest and in all its vulgar details, the readers of the +_Times-Herald_ are believed by the editor of that religious daily +to take great interest. + +The editor did not ask the pardon of his readers for giving so much +space to the nose-smashing sport. No! He knew that would fill +their souls with delight, and, so knowing, he reached the correct +conclusion that such people would not enjoy anything I had said. +The editor did a wise thing and catered to a large majority of his +readers. I do not think that we have as religious a daily paper +in New York as the _Times-Herald_. So the editor of the _Times- +Herald_ took the ground that men with little learning, in youth, +might be agnostic, but as they grew sensible they would become +orthodox. When he wrote that he was probably thinking of Humboldt +and Darwin, of Huxley and Haeckel. May be Herbert Spencer was in +his mind, but I think that he must have been thinking of a few boys +in his native village. + +_Question_. What do you think about prize-fighting anyway? + +_Answer_. Well, I think that prize-fighting is worse, if possible, +than revival meetings. Next to fighting to kill, as they did in +the old Roman days, I think the modern prize-fight is the most +disgusting and degrading of exhibitions. All fights, whether cock- +fights, bull-fights or pugilistic encounters, are practiced and +enjoyed only by savages. No matter what office they hold, what +wealth or education they have, they are simply savages. Under no +possible circumstances would I witness a prize-fight or a bull- +fight or a dog-fight. The Marquis of Queensbury was once at my +house, and I found his opinions were the same as mine. Everyone +thinks that he had something to do with the sport of prize-fighting, +but he did not, except to make some rules once for a college boxing +contest. He told me that he never saw but one prize-fight in his +life, and that it made him sick. + +_Question_. How are you on the arbitration treaty? + +_Answer_. I am for it with all my heart. I have read it, and read +it with care, and to me it seems absolutely fair. England and +America should set an example to the world. The English-speaking +people have reason enough and sense enough, I hope, to settle their +differences by argument--by reason. Let us get the wild beast out +of us. Two great nations like England and America appealing to +force, arguing with shot and shell! What is education worth? Is +what we call civilization a sham? Yes, I believe in peace, in +arbitration, in settling disputes like reasonable, human beings. +All that war can do is to determine who is the stronger. It throws +no light on any question, addresses no argument. There is a point +to a bayonet, but no logic. After the war is over the victory does +not tell which nation was right. Civilized men take their differences +to courts or arbitrators. Civilized nations should do the same. +There ought to be an international court. + +Let every man do all he can to prevent war--to prevent the waste, +the cruelties, the horrors that follow every flag on every field +of battle. It is time that man was human--time that the beast was +out of his heart. + +_Question_. What do you think of McKinley's inaugural? + +_Answer_. It is good, honest, clear, patriotic and sensible. +There is one thing in it that touched me; I agree with him that +lynching has to be stopped. You see that now we are citizens of +the United States, not simply of the State in which we happen to +live. I take the ground that it is the business of the United +States to protect its citizens, not only when they are in some +other country, but when they are at home. The United States cannot +discharge this obligation by allowing the States to do as they +please. Where citizens are being lynched the Government should +interfere. If the Governor of some barbarian State says that he +cannot protect the lives of citizens, then the United States should, +if it took the entire Army and Navy. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of charity organizations? + +_Answer_. I think that the people who support them are good and +generous--splendid--but I have a poor opinion of the people in +charge. As a rule, I think they are cold, impudent and heartless. +There is too much circumlocution, or too many details and too little +humanity. The Jews are exceedingly charitable. I think that in +New York the men who are doing the most for their fellow-men are +Jews. Nathan Strauss is trying to feed the hungry, warm the cold, +and clothe the naked. For the most part, organized charities are, +I think, failures. A real charity has to be in the control of a +good man, a real sympathetic, a sensible man, one who helps others +to help themselves. Let a hungry man go to an organized society +and it requires several days to satisfy the officers that the man +is hungry. Meanwhile he will probably starve to death. + +_Question_. Do you believe in free text-books in the public +schools? + +_Answer_. I do not care about the text-book question. But I am +in favor of the public school. Nothing should be taught that +somebody does not know. No superstitions--nothing but science. + +_Question_. There has been a good deal said lately about your +suicide theology, Colonel. Do you still believe that suicide is +justifiable? + +_Answer_. Certainly. When a man is useless to himself and to +others he has a right to determine what he will do about living. +The only thing to be considered is a man's obligation to his fellow- +beings and to himself. I don't take into consideration any +supernatural nonsense. If God wants a man to stay here he ought +to make it more comfortable for him. + +_Question_. Since you expounded your justification of suicide, +Colonel, I believe you have had some cases of suicide laid at your +door? + +_Answer_. Oh, yes. Every suicide that has happened since that +time has been charged to me. I don't know how the people account +for the suicides before my time. I have not yet heard of my being +charged with the death of Cato, but that may yet come to pass. I +was reading the other day that the rate of suicide in Germany is +increasing. I suppose my article has been translated into German. + +_Question_. How about lying, Colonel? Is it ever right to lie? + +_Answer_. Of course, sometimes. In war when a man is captured by +the enemy he ought to lie to them to mislead them. What we call +strategy is nothing more than lies. For the accomplishment of a +good end, for instance, the saving of a woman's reputation, it is +many times perfectly right to lie. As a rule, people ought to tell +the truth. If it is right to kill a man to save your own life it +certainly ought to be right to fool him for the same purpose. I +would rather be deceived than killed, wouldn't you? + +--_The Inter-Ocean_, Chicago, Illinois, March, 1897. + + +A VISIT TO SHAW'S GARDEN. + +_Question_. I was told that you came to St. Louis on your wedding +trip some thirty years ago and went to Shaw's Garden? + +_Answer_. Yes; we were married on the 13th of February, 1862. We +were here in St. Louis, and we did visit Shaw's Garden, and we +thought it perfectly beautiful. Afterward we visited the Kew +Gardens in London, but our remembrance of Shaw's left Kew in the +shade. + +Of course, I have been in St. Louis many times, my first visit +being, I think, in 1854. I have always liked the town. I was +acquainted at one time with a great many of your old citizens. +Most of them have died, and I know but few of the present generation. +I used to stop at the old Planter's House, and I was there quite +often during the war. In those days I saw Hackett as Falstaff, +the best Falstaff that ever lived. Ben de Bar was here then, and +the Maddern sisters, and now the daughter of one of the sisters, +Minnie Maddern Fiske, is one of the greatest actresses in the world. +She has made a wonderful hit in New York this season. And so the +ebb and flow of life goes on--the old pass and the young arrive. + +"Death and progress!" It may be that death is, after all, a great +blessing. Maybe it gives zest and flavor to life, ardor and flame +to love. At the same time I say, "long life" to all my friends. + +I want to live--I get great happiness out of life. I enjoy the +company of my friends. I enjoy seeing the faces of the ones I +love. I enjoy art and music. I love Shakespeare and Burns; love +to hear the music of Wagner; love to see a good play. I take +pleasure in eating and sleeping. The fact is, I like to breathe. + +I want to get all the happiness out of life that I can. I want to +suck the orange dry, so that when death comes nothing but the +peelings will be left, and so I say: "Long life!" + +--_The Republic_, St. Louis, April 11, 1897. + + +THE VENEZUELAN BOUNDARY DISCUSSION AND THE WHIPPING-POST. + +_Question_. What is your opinion as to the action of the President +on the Venezuelan matter? + +_Answer_. In my judgment, the President acted in haste and without +thought. It may be said that it would have been well enough for +him to have laid the correspondence before Congress and asked for +an appropriation for a commission to ascertain the facts, to the +end that our Government might intelligently act. There was no +propriety in going further than that. To almost declare war before +the facts were known was a blunder--almost a crime. For my part, +I do not think the Monroe doctrine has anything to do with the +case. Mr. Olney reasons badly, and it is only by a perversion of +facts, and an exaggeration of facts, and by calling in question +the motives of England that it is possible to conclude that the +Monroe doctrine has or can have anything to do with the controversy. +The President went out of his way to find a cause of quarrel. +Nobody doubts the courage of the American people, and we for that +reason can afford to be sensible and prudent. Valor and discretion +should go together. Nobody doubts the courage of England. + +America and England are the leading nations, and in their keeping, +to a great extent, is the glory of the future. They should be at +peace. Should a difference arise it should be settled without +recourse to war. + +Fighting settles nothing but the relative strength. No light is +thrown on the cause of the conflict--on the question or fact that +caused the war. + +_Question_. Do you think that there is any danger of war? + +_Answer_. If the members of Congress really represent the people, +then there is danger. But I do not believe the people will really +want to fight about a few square miles of malarial territory in +Venezuela--something in which they have no earthly or heavenly +interest. The people do not wish to fight for fight's sake. When +they understand the question they will regard the administration +as almost insane. + +The message has already cost us more than the War of 1812 or the +Mexican war, or both. Stocks and bonds have decreased in value +several hundred millions, and the end is not yet. It may be that +it will, on account of the panic, be impossible for the Government +to maintain the gold standard--the reserve. Then gold would command +a premium, the Government would be unable to redeem the greenbacks, +and the result would be financial chaos, and all this the result +of Mr. Cleveland's curiosity about a boundary line between two +countries, in neither of which we have any interest, and this +curiosity has already cost us more than both countries, including +the boundary line, are worth. + +The President made a great mistake. So did the House and Senate, +and the poor people have paid a part of the cost. + +_Question_. What is your opinion of the Gerry Whipping Post bill? + +_Answer_. I see that it has passed the Senate, and yet I think it +is a disgrace to the State. How the Senators can go back to torture, +to the Dark Ages, to the custom of savagery, is beyond belief. I +hope that the House is nearer civilized, and that the infamous bill +will be defeated. If, however, the bill should pass, then I hope +Governor Morton will veto it. + +Nothing is more disgusting, more degrading, than the whipping-post. +It degrades the whipped and the whipper. It degrades all who +witness the flogging. What kind of a person will do the whipping? +Men who would apply the lash to the naked backs of criminals would +have to be as low as the criminals, and probably a little lower. + +The shadow of the whipping-post does not fall on any civilized +country, and never will. The next thing we know Mr. Gerry will +probably introduce some bill to brand criminals on the forehead or +cut off their ears and slit their noses. This is in the same line, +and is born of the same hellish spirit. There is no reforming +power in torture, in bruising and mangling the flesh. + +If the bill becomes a law, I hope it will provide that the lash +shall be applied by Mr. Gerry and his successors in office. Let +these pretended enemies of cruelty enjoy themselves. If the bill +passes, I presume Mr. Gerry could get a supply of knouts from +Russia, as that country has just abolished the whipping-post. + +--_The Journal_, New York, December 24, 1895. + + +COLONEL SHEPARD'S STAGE HORSES.* + +[* One of Colonel Shepard's equine wrecks was picked up on Fifth +avenue yesterday by the Prevention of Cruelty Society, and was +laid up for repairs. The horse was about twenty-eight years old, +badly foundered, and its leg was cut and bleeding. It was the leader +of three that had been hauling a Fifth avenue stage, and, according +to the Society's agents, was in about as bad a condition as a horse +could be and keep on his feet. The other two horses were little +better, neither of them being fit to drive. + +Colonel Shepard's scrawny nags have long been an eyesore to Colonel +Robert G. Ingersoll, who is compelled to see them from his windows +at number 400 Fifth avenue. He said last night: ] + +It might not be in good taste for me to say anything about Colonel +Shepard's horses. He might think me prejudiced. But I am satisfied +horses cannot live on faith or on the substance of things hoped +for. It is far better for the horse, to feed him without praying, +than to pray without feeding him. It is better to be kind even to +animals, than to quote Scripture in small capitals. Now, I am not +saying anything against Colonel Shepard. I do not know how he +feeds his horses. If he is as good and kind as he is pious, then +I have nothing to say. Maybe he does not allow the horses to break +the Sabbath by eating. They are so slow that they make one think +of a fast. They put me in mind of the Garden of Eden--the rib +story. When I watch them on the avenue I, too, fall to quoting +Scripture, and say, "Can these dry bones live?" Still, I have a +delicacy on this subject; I hate to think about it, and I think +the horses feel the same way. + +--_Morning Advertiser_, New York, January 21, 1892. + + +A REPLY TO THE REV. L. A. BANKS. + +_Question_. Have you read the remarks made about you by the Rev. +Mr. Banks, and what do you think of what he said? + +_Answer_. The reverend gentleman pays me a great compliment by +comparing me to a circus. Everybody enjoys the circus. They love +to see the acrobats, the walkers on the tight rope, the beautiful +girls on the horses, and they laugh at the wit of the clowns. They +are delighted with the jugglers, with the music of the band. They +drink the lemonade, eat the colored popcorn and laugh until they +nearly roll off their seats. Now the circus has a few animals so +that Christians can have an excuse for going. Think of the joy +the circus gives to the boys and girls. They look at the show +bills, see the men and women flying through the air, bursting +through paper hoops, the elephants standing on their heads, and +the clowns, in curious clothes, with hands on their knees and open +mouths, supposed to be filled with laughter. + +All the boys and girls for many miles around know the blessed day. +They save their money, obey their parents, and when the circus +comes they are on hand. They see the procession and then they see +the show. They are all happy. No sermon ever pleased them as +much, and in comparison even the Sunday school is tame and dull. + +To feel that I have given as much joy as the circus fills me with +pleasure. What chance would the Rev. Dr. Banks stand against a +circus? + +The reverend gentleman has done me a great honor, and I tender him +my sincere thanks. + +_Question_. Dr. Banks says that you write only one lecture a year, +while preachers write a brand new one every week--that if you did +that people would tire of you. What have you to say to that? + +_Answer_. It may be that great artists paint only one picture a +year, and it may be that sign painters can do several jobs a day. +Still, I would not say that the sign painters were superior to the +artists. There is quite a difference between a sculptor and a +stone-cutter. + +There are thousands of preachers and thousands and thousands of +sermons preached every year. Has any orthodox minister in the year +1898 given just one paragraph to literature? Has any orthodox +preacher uttered one great thought, clothed in perfect English that +thrilled the hearers like music--one great strophe that became one +of the treasures of memory? + +I will make the question a little clearer. Has any orthodox +preacher, or any preacher in an orthodox pulpit uttered a paragraph +of what may be called sculptured speech since Henry Ward Beecher +died? I do not wonder that the sermons are poor. Their doctrines +have been discussed for centuries. There is little chance for +originality; they not only thresh old straw, but the thresh straw +that has been threshed a million times--straw in which there has +not been a grain of wheat for hundreds of years. No wonder that +they have nervous prostration. No wonder that they need vacations, +and no wonder that their congregations enjoy the vacations as keenly +as the ministers themselves. Better deliver a real good address +fifty-two times than fifty-two poor ones--just for the sake of +variety. + +_Question_. Dr. Banks says that the tendency at present is not +toward Agnosticism, but toward Christianity. What is your opinion? + +_Answer_. When I was a boy "Infidels" were very rare. A man who +denied the inspiration of the Bible was regarded as a monster. +Now there are in this country millions who regard the Bible as the +work of ignorant and superstitious men. A few years ago the Bible +was the standard. All scientific theories were tested by the Bible. +Now science is the standard and the Bible is tested by that. + +Dr. Banks did not mention the names of the great scientists who +are or were Christians, but he probably thought of Laplace, Humboldt, +Haeckel, Huxley, Spencer, Tyndall, Darwin, Helmholtz and Draper. +When he spoke of Christian statesmen he likely thought of Jefferson, +Franklin, Washington, Paine and Lincoln--or he may have thought of +Pierce, Fillmore and Buchanan. + +But, after all, there is no argument in names. A man is not +necessarily great because he holds office or wears a crown or talks +in a pulpit. Facts, reasons, are better than names. But it seems +to me that nothing can be plainer than that the church is losing +ground--that the people are discarding the creeds and that superstition +has passed the zenith of its power. + +_Question_. Dr. Banks says that Christ did not mention the Western +Hemisphere because God does nothing for men that they can do for +themselves. What have you to say? + +_Answer_. Christ said nothing about the Western Hemisphere because +he did not know that it existed. He did not know the shape of the +earth. He was not a scientist--never even hinted at any science-- +never told anybody to investigate--to think. His idea was that +this life should be spent in preparing for the next. For all the +evils of this life, and the next, faith was his remedy. + +I see from the report in the paper that Dr. Banks, after making +the remarks about me preached a sermon on "Herod the Villain in +the Drama of Christ." Who made Herod? Dr. Banks will answer that +God made him. Did God know what Herod would do? Yes. Did he know +that he would cause the children to be slaughtered in his vain +efforts to kill the infant Christ? Yes. Dr. Banks will say that +God is not responsible for Herod because he gave Herod freedom. +Did God know how Herod would use his freedom? Did he know that he +would become the villain in the drama of Christ? Yes. Who, then, +is really responsible for the acts of Herod? + +If I could change a stone into a human being, and if I could give +this being freedom of will, and if I knew that if I made him he +would murder a man, and if with that knowledge I made him, and he +did commit a murder, who would be the real murderer? + +Will Dr. Banks in his fifty-two sermons of next year show that his +God is not responsible for the crimes of Herod? + +No doubt Dr. Banks is a good man, and no doubt he thinks that +liberty of thought leads to hell, and honestly believes that all +doubt comes from the Devil. I do not blame him. He thinks as he +must. He is a product of conditions. + +He ought to be my friend because I am doing the best I can to +civilize his congregation. + +--_The Plain Dealer_, Cleveland, Ohio, 1898. + + +CUBA--ZOLA AND THEOSOPHY. + +_Question_. What do you think, Colonel, of the Cuban question? + +_Answer_. What I know about this question is known by all. I +suppose that the President has information that I know nothing +about. Of course, all my sympathies are with the Cubans. They +are making a desperate--an heroic struggle for their freedom. For +many years they have been robbed and trampled under foot. Spain +is, and always has been, a terrible master--heartless and infamous. +There is no language with which to tell what Cuba has suffered. +In my judgment, this country should assist the Cubans. We ought +to acknowledge the independence of that island, and we ought to +feed the starving victims of Spain. For years we have been helping +Spain. Cleveland did all he could to prevent the Cubans from +getting arms and men. This was a criminal mistake--a mistake that +even Spain did not appreciate. All this should instantly be +reversed, and we should give aid to Cuba. The war that Spain is +waging shocks every civilized man. Spain has always been the same. +In Holland, in Peru, in Mexico, she was infinitely cruel, and she +is the same to-day. She loves to torture, to imprison, to degrade, +to kill. Her idea of perfect happiness is to shed blood. Spain +is a legacy of the Dark Ages. She belongs to the den, the cave +period. She has no business to exist. She is a blot, a stain on +the map of the world. Of course there are some good Spaniards, +but they are not in control. + +I want Cuba to be free. I want Spain driven from the Western World. +She has already starved five hundred thousand Cubans--poor, helpless +non-combatants. Among the helpless she is like a hyena--a tiger +among lambs. This country ought to stop this gigantic crime. We +should do this in the name of humanity--for the sake of the starving, +the dying. + +_Question_. Do you think we are going to have war with Spain? + +_Answer_. I do not think there will be war. Unless Spain is +insane, she will not attack the United States. She is bankrupt. +No nation will assist her. A civilized nation would be ashamed to +take her hand, to be her friend. She has not the power to put down +the rebellion in Cuba. How then can she hope to conquer this +country? She is full of brag and bluster. Of course she will play +her hand for all it is worth, so far as talk goes. She will double +her fists and make motions. She will assume the attitude of war, +but she will never fight. Should she commence hostilities, the +war would be short. She would lose her navy. The little commerce +she has would be driven from the sea. She would drink to the dregs +the cup of humiliation and disgrace. I do not believe that Spain +is insane enough to fire upon our flag. I know that there is +nothing too mean, too cruel for her to do, but still she must have +sense enough to try and save her own life. No, I think there will +be no war, but I believe that Cuba will be free. My opinion is +that the Maine was blown up from the outside--blown up by Spanish +officers, and I think the report of the Board will be to that +effect. Such a crime ought to redden even the cheeks of Spain. +As soon as this fact is known, other nations will regard Spain with +hatred and horror. If the Maine was destroyed by Spain we will +ask for indemnity. The people insist that the account be settled +and at once. Possibly we may attack Spain. There is the only +danger of war. We must avenge that crime. The destruction of two +hundred and fifty-nine Americans must be avenged. Free Cuba must +be their monument. I hope for the sake of human nature that the +Spanish did not destroy the Maine. I hope it was the result of an +accident. I hope there is to be no war, but Spain must be driven +from the New World. + +_Question_. What about Zola's trial and conviction? + +_Answer_. It was one of the most infamous trials in the history +of the world. Zola is a great man, a genius, the best man in +France. His trial was a travesty on justice. The judge acted like +a bandit. The proceedings were a disgrace to human nature. The +jurors must have been ignorant beasts. The French have disgraced +themselves. Long live Zola. + +_Question_. Having expressed yourself less upon the subject of +Theosophy than upon other religious beliefs, and as Theosophy denies +the existence of a God as worshiped by Christianity, what is your +idea of the creed? + +_Answer_. Insanity. I think it is a mild form of delusion and +illusion; vague, misty, obscure, half dream, mixed with other +mistakes and fragments of facts--a little philosophy, absurdity-- +a few impossibilities--some improbabilities--some accounts of events +that never happened--some prophecies that will not come to pass-- +a structure without foundation. But the Theosophists are good +people; kind and honest. Theosophy is based on the supernatural +and is just as absurd as the orthodox creeds. + +--_The Courier-Journal_, Louisville, Ky., February, 1898. + + +HOW TO BECOME AN ORATOR. + +_Question_. What advice would you give to a young man who was +ambitious to become a successful public speaker or orator? + +_Answer_. In the first place, I would advise him to have something +to say--something worth saying--something that people would be glad +to hear. This is the important thing. Back of the art of speaking +must be the power to think. Without thoughts words are empty +purses. Most people imagine that almost any words uttered in a +loud voice and accompanied by appropriate gestures, constitute an +oration. I would advise the young man to study his subject, to +find what others had thought, to look at it from all sides. Then +I would tell him to write out his thoughts or to arrange them in +his mind, so that he would know exactly what he was going to say. +Waste no time on the how until you are satisfied with the what. +After you know what you are to say, then you can think of how it +should be said. Then you can think about tone, emphasis, and +gesture; but if you really understand what you say, emphasis, tone, +and gesture will take care of themselves. All these should come +from the inside. They should be in perfect harmony with the +feelings. Voice and gesture should be governed by the emotions. +They should unconsciously be in perfect agreement with the sentiments. +The orator should be true to his subject, should avoid any reference +to himself. + +The great column of his argument should be unbroken. He can adorn +it with vines and flowers, but they should not be in such profusion +as to hide the column. He should give variety of episode by +illustrations, but they should be used only for the purpose of +adding strength to the argument. The man who wishes to become an +orator should study language. He should know the deeper meaning +of words. He should understand the vigor and velocity of verbs +and the color of adjectives. He should know how to sketch a scene, +to paint a picture, to give life and action. He should be a poet +and a dramatist, a painter and an actor. He should cultivate his +imagination. He should become familiar with the great poetry and +fiction, with splendid and heroic deeds. He should be a student +of Shakespeare. He should read and devour the great plays. From +Shakespeare he could learn the art of expression, of compression, +and all the secrets of the head and heart. + +The great orator is full of variety--of surprises. Like a juggler, +he keeps the colored balls in the air. He expresses himself in +pictures. His speech is a panorama. By continued change he holds +the attention. The interest does not flag. He does not allow +himself to be anticipated. A picture is shown but once. So, an +orator should avoid the commonplace. There should be no stuffing, +no filling. He should put no cotton with his silk, no common metals +with his gold. He should remember that "gilded dust is not as good +as dusted gold." The great orator is honest, sincere. He does +not pretend. His brain and heart go together. Every drop of his +blood is convinced. Nothing is forced. He knows exactly what he +wishes to do--knows when he has finished it, and stops. + +Only a great orator knows when and how to close. Most speakers go +on after they are through. They are satisfied only with a "lame +and impotent conclusion." Most speakers lack variety. They travel +a straight and dusty road. The great orator is full of episode. +He convinces and charms by indirection. He leaves the road, visits +the fields, wanders in the woods, listens to the murmurs of springs, +the songs of birds. He gathers flowers, scales the crags and comes +back to the highway refreshed, invigorated. He does not move in +a straight line. He wanders and winds like a stream. + +Of course, no one can tell a man what to do to become an orator. +The great orator has that wonderful thing called presence. He has +that strange something known as magnetism. He must have a flexible, +musical voice, capable of expressing the pathetic, the humorous, +the heroic. His body must move in unison with his thought. He +must be a reasoner, a logician. He must have a keen sense of humor +--of the laughable. He must have wit, sharp and quick. He must +have sympathy. His smiles should be the neighbors of his tears. +He must have imagination. He should give eagles to the air, and +painted moths should flutter in the sunlight. + +While I cannot tell a man what to do to become an orator, I can +tell him a few things not to do. There should be no introduction +to an oration. The orator should commence with his subject. There +should be no prelude, no flourish, no apology, no explanation. He +should say nothing about himself. Like a sculptor, he stands by +his block of stone. Every stroke is for a purpose. As he works +the form begins to appear. When the statue is finished the workman +stops. Nothing is more difficult than a perfect close. Few poems, +few pieces of music, few novels end well. A good story, a great +speech, a perfect poem should end just at the proper point. The +bud, the blossom, the fruit. No delay. A great speech is a +crystallization in its logic, an efflorescence in its poetry. + +I have not heard many speeches. Most of the great speakers in our +country were before my time. I heard Beecher, and he was an orator. +He had imagination, humor and intensity. His brain was as fertile +as the valleys of the tropics. He was too broad, too philosophic, +too poetic for the pulpit. Now and then, he broke the fetters of +his creed, escaped from his orthodox prison, and became sublime. + +Theodore Parker was an orator. He preached great sermons. His +sermons on "Old Age" and "Webster," and his address on "Liberty" +were filled with great thoughts, marvelously expressed. When he +dealt with human events, with realities, with things he knew, he +was superb. When he spoke of freedom, of duty, of living to the +ideal, of mental integrity, he seemed inspired. + +Webster I never heard. He had great qualities; force, dignity, +clearness, grandeur; but, after all, he worshiped the past. He +kept his back to the sunrise. There was no dawn in his brain. He +was not creative. He had no spirit of prophecy. He lighted no +torch. He was not true to his ideal. He talked sometimes as though +his head was among the stars, but he stood in the gutter. In the +name of religion he tried to break the will of Stephen Girard--to +destroy the greatest charity in all the world; and in the name of +the same religion he defended the Fugitive Slave Law. His purpose +was the same in both cases. He wanted office. Yet he uttered a +few very great paragraphs, rich with thought, perfectly expressed. + +Clay I never heard, but he must have had a commanding presence, a +chivalric bearing, an heroic voice. He cared little for the past. +He was a natural leader, a wonderful talker--forcible, persuasive, +convincing. He was not a poet, not a master of metaphor, but he +was practical. He kept in view the end to be accomplished. He +was the opposite of Webster. Clay was the morning, Webster the +evening. Clay had large views, a wide horizon. He was ample, +vigorous, and a little tyrannical. + +Benton was thoroughly commonplace. He never uttered an inspired +word. He was an intense egoist. No subject was great enough to +make him forget himself. Calhoun was a political Calvinist--narrow, +logical, dogmatic. He was not an orator. He delivered essays, +not orations. I think it was in 1851 that Kossuth visited this +country. He was an orator. There was no man, at that time, under +our flag, who could speak English as well as he. In the first +speech I read of Kossuth's was this line: "Russia is the rock +against which the sigh for freedom breaks." In this you see the +poet, the painter, the orator. + +S. S. Prentiss was an orator, but, with the recklessness of a +gamester, he threw his life away. He said profound and beautiful +things, but he lacked application. He was uneven, disproportioned, +saying ordinary things on great occasions, and now and then, without +the slightest provocation, uttering the sublimest and most beautiful +thoughts. + +In my judgment, Corwin was the greatest orator of them all. He +had more arrows in his quiver. He had genius. He was full of +humor, pathos, wit, and logic. He was an actor. His body talked. +His meaning was in his eyes and lips. Gov. O. P. Morton of Indiana +had the greatest power of statement of any man I ever heard. All +the argument was in his statement. The facts were perfectly grouped. +The conclusion was a necessity. + +The best political speech I ever heard was made by Gov. Richard J. +Oglesby of Illinois. It had every element of greatness--reason, +humor, wit, pathos, imagination, and perfect naturalness. That +was in the grand years, long ago. Lincoln had reason, wonderful +humor, and wit, but his presence was not good. His voice was poor, +his gestures awkward--but his thoughts were profound. His speech +at Gettysburg is one of the masterpieces of the world. The word +"here" is used four or five times too often. Leave the "heres" +out, and the speech is perfect. + +Of course, I have heard a great many talkers, but orators are few +and far between. They are produced by victorious nations--born in +the midst of great events, of marvelous achievements. They utter +the thoughts, the aspirations of their age. They clothe the children +of the people in the gorgeous robes of giants. The interpret the +dreams. With the poets, they prophesy. They fill the future with +heroic forms, with lofty deeds. They keep their faces toward the +dawn--toward the ever-coming day. + +--_New York Sun_, April, 1898. + + +JOHN RUSSELL YOUNG AND EXPANSION. + +_Question_. You knew John Russell Young, Colonel? + +_Answer_. Yes, I knew him well and we were friends for many years. +He was a wonderfully intelligent man--knew something about everything, +had read most books worth reading. He was one of the truest friends. +He had a genius for friendship. He never failed to do a favor when +he could, and he never forgot a favor. He had the genius of +gratitude. His mind was keen, smooth, clear, and he really loved +to think. I had the greatest admiration for his character and I +was shocked when I read of his death. I did not know that he had +been ill. All my heart goes out to his wife--a lovely woman, now +left alone with her boy. After all, life is a fearful thing at +best. The brighter the sunshine the deeper the shadow. + +_Question_. Are you in favor of expansion? + +_Answer_. Yes, I have always wanted more--I love to see the Republic +grow. I wanted the Sandwich Islands, wanted Porto Rico, and I want +Cuba if the Cubans want us. I want the Philippines if the Filipinos +want us--I do not want to conquer and enslave those people. The +war on the Filipinos is a great mistake--a blunder--almost a crime. + +If the President had declared his policy, then, if his policy was +right, there was no need of war. The President should have told +the Filipinos just exactly what he wanted. It is a small business, +after Dewey covered Manila Bay with glory, to murder a lot of half- +armed savages. We had no right to buy, because Spain had no right +to sell the Philippines. We acquired no rights on those islands +by whipping Spain. + +_Question_. Do you think the President should have stated his +policy in Boston the other day? + +_Answer_. Yes, I think it would be better if he would unpack his +little budget--I like McKinley, but I liked him just as well before +he was President. He is a good man, not because he is President, +but because he is a man--you know that real honor must be earned-- +people cannot give honor--honor is not alms--it is wages. So, when +a man is elected President the best thing he can do is to remain +a natural man. Yes, I wish McKinley would brush all his advisers +to one side and say his say; I believe his say would be right. + +Now, don't change this interview and make me say something mean +about McKinley, because I like him. The other day, in Chicago, I +had an interview and I wrote it out. In that "interview" I said +a few things about the position of Senator Hoar. I tried to show +that he was wrong--but I took pains to express by admiration for +Senator Hoar. When the interview was published I was made to say +that Senator Hoar was a mud-head. I never said or thought anything +of the kind. Don't treat me as that Chicago reporter did. + +_Question_. What do you think of Atkinson's speech? + +_Answer_. Well, some of it is good--but I never want to see the +soldiers of the Republic whipped. I am always on our side. + +--_The Press_, Philadelphia, February 20, 1899. + + +PSYCHICAL RESEARCH AND THE BIBLE.* + +[* As an incident in the life of any one favored with the privilege, +a visit to the home of Col. Robert G. Ingersoll is certain to be +recalled as a most pleasant and profitable experience. Although +not a sympathizer with the great Agnostic's religious views, yet I +have long admired his ability, his humor, his intellectual honesty +and courage. And it was with gratification that I accepted the +good offices of a common friend who recently offered to introduce +me to the Ingersoll domestic circle in Gramercy Park. Here I found +the genial Colonel, surrounded by his children, his grandchildren, +and his amiable wife, whose smiling greeting dispelled formality +and breathed "Welcome" in every syllable. The family relationship +seemed absolutely ideal--the very walls emitting an atmosphere of +art and music, of contentment and companionship, of mutual trust, +happiness and generosity. + +But my chief desire was to elicit Colonel Ingersoll's personal +views on questions related to the New Thought and its attitude on +matters on which he is known to have very decided opinions. My +request for a private chat was cordially granted. During the +conversation that ensued--(the substance of which is presented to +the readers of _Mind_ in the following paragraphs, with the Colonel's +consent)--I was impressed most deeply, not by the force of his +arguments, but by the sincerity of his convictions. Among some of +his more violent opponents, who presumably lack other opportunities +of becoming known, it is the fashion to accuse Ingersoll of having +really no belief in his own opinions. But, if he convinced me of +little else, he certainly, without effort, satisfied my mind that +this accusation is a slander. Utterly mistaken in his views he may +be; but if so, his errors are more honest than many of those he +points out in the King James version of the Bible. If his pulpit +enemies could talk with this man by his own fireside, they would +pay less attention to Ingersoll himself and more to what he says. +They would consider his _meaning_, rather than his motive. + +As the Colonel is the most conspicuous denunciator of intolerance +and bigotry in America, he has been inevitably the greatest victim +of these obstacles to mental freedom. "To answer Ingersoll" is +the pet ambition of many a young clergyman--the older ones have +either acquired prudence or are broad enough to concede the utility +of even Agnostics in the economy of evolution. It was with the +very subject that we began our talk--the uncharitableness of men, +otherwise good, in their treatment of those whose religious views +differ from their own.] + +_Question_. What is your conception of true intellectual hospitality? +As Truth can brook no compromises, has it not the same limitations +that surround social and domestic hospitality? + +_Answer_. In the republic of mind we are all equals. Each one is +sceptered and crowned. Each one is the monarch of his own realm. +By "intellectual hospitality" I mean the right of every one to +think and to express his thought. It makes no difference whether +his thought is right or wrong. If you are intellectually hospitable +you will admit the right of every human being to see for himself; +to hear with his own ears, see with his own eyes, and think with +his own brain. You will not try to change his thought by force, +by persecution, or by slander. You will not threaten him with +punishment--here or hereafter. You will give him your thought, +your reasons, your facts; and there you will stop. This is +intellectual hospitality. You do not give up what you believe to +be the truth; you do not compromise. You simply give him the +liberty you claim for yourself. The truth is not affected by your +opinion or by his. Both may be wrong. For many years the church +has claimed to have the "truth," and has also insisted that it is +the duty of every man to believe it, whether it is reasonable to +him or not. This is bigotry in its basest form. Every man should +be guided by his reason; should be true to himself; should preserve +the veracity of his soul. Each human being should judge for himself. +The man that believes that all men have this right is intellectually +hospitable. + +_Question_. In the sharp distinction between theology and religion +that is now recognized by many theologians, and in the liberalizing +of the church that has marked the last two decades, are not most +of your contentions already granted? Is not the "lake of fire and +brimstone" an obsolete issue? + +_Answer_. There has been in the last few years a great advance. +The orthodox creeds have been growing vulgar and cruel. Civilized +people are shocked at the dogma of eternal pain, and the belief in +hell has mostly faded away. The churches have not changed their +creeds. They still pretend to believe as they always have--but +they have changed their tone. God is now a father--a friend. He +is no longer the monster, the savage, described in the Bible. He +has become somewhat civilized. He no longer claims the right to +damn us because he made us. But in spite of all the errors and +contradictions, in spite of the cruelties and absurdities found in +the Scriptures, the churches still insist that the Bible is +_inspired_. The educated ministers admit that the Pentateuch was +not written by Moses; that the Psalms were not written by David; +that Isaiah was the work of at least three; that Daniel was not +written until after the prophecies mentioned in that book had been +fulfilled; that Ecclesiastes was not written until the second +century after Christ; that Solomon's Song was not written by Solomon; +that the book of Esther is of no importance; and that no one knows, +or pretends to know, who were the authors of Kings, Samuel, +Chronicles, or Job. And yet these same gentlemen still cling to +the dogma of inspiration! It is no longer claimed that the Bible +is true--but _inspired_. + +_Question_. Yet the sacred volume, no matter who wrote it, is a +mine of wealth to the student and the philosopher, is it not? +Would you have us discard it altogether? + +_Answer_. Inspiration must be abandoned, and the Bible must take +its place among the books of the world. It contains some good +passages, a little poetry, some good sense, and some kindness; but +its philosophy is frightful. In fact, if the book had never existed +I think it would have been far better for mankind. It is not enough +to give up the Bible; that is only the beginning. The _supernatural_ +must be given up. It must be admitted that Nature has no master; +that there never has been any interference from without; that man +has received no help from heaven; and that all the prayers that +have ever been uttered have died unanswered in the heedless air. +The religion of the supernatural has been a curse. We want the +religion of usefulness. + +_Question_. But have you no use whatever for prayer--even in the +sense of aspiration--or for faith, in the sense of confidence in +the ultimate triumph of the right? + +_Answer_. There is a difference between wishing, hoping, believing, +and--knowing. We can wish without evidence or probability, and we +can wish for the impossible--for what we believe can never be. We +cannot hope unless there is in the mind a possibility that the +thing hoped for can happen. We can believe only in accordance with +evidence, and we know only that which has been demonstrated. I +have no use for prayer; but I do a good deal of wishing and hoping. +I hope that some time the right will triumph--that Truth will gain +the victory; but I have no faith in gaining the assistance of any +god, or of any supernatural power. I never pray. + +_Question_. However fully materialism, as a philosophy, may accord +with the merely human _reason_, is it not wholly antagonistic to +the instinctive faculties of the mind? + +_Answer_. Human reason is the final arbiter. Any system that does +not commend itself to the reason must fall. I do not know exactly +what you mean by _materialism_. I do not know what matter is. I +am satisfied, however, that without matter there can be no force, +no life, no thought, no reason. It seems to me that mind is a form +of force, and force cannot exist apart from matter. If it is said +that God created the universe, then there must have been a time +when he commenced to create. If at that time there was nothing in +existence but himself, how could he have exerted any force? Force +cannot be exerted except in opposition to force. If God was the +only existence, force could not have been exerted. + +_Question_. But don't you think, Colonel, that the materialistic +philosophy, even in the light of your own interpretation, is +essentially pessimistic? + +_Answer_. I do not consider it so. I believe that the pessimists +and the optimists are both right. This is the worst possible world, +and this is the best possible world--because it is as it must be. +The present is the child, and the necessary child, of all the past. + +_Question_. What have you to say concerning the operations of the +Society for Psychical Research? Do not its facts and conclusions +prove, if not immortality, at least the continuity of life beyond +the grave? Are the millions of Spiritualists deluded? + +_Answer_. Of course I have heard and read a great deal about the +doings of the Society; so, I have some knowledge as to what is +claimed by Spiritualists, by Theosophists, and by all other believers +in what are called "spiritual manifestations." Thousands of +wonderful tings have been established by what is called "evidence" +--the testimony of good men and women. I have seen things done +that I could not explain, both by mediums and magicians. I also +know that it is easy to deceive the senses, and that the old saying +"that seeing is believing" is subject to many exceptions. I am +perfectly satisfied that there is, and can be, no force without +matter; that everything that is--all phenomena--all actions and +thoughts, all exhibitions of force, have a material basis--that +nothing exists,--ever did, or ever will exist, apart from matter. +So I am satisfied that no matter ever existed, or ever will, apart +from force. + +We think with the same force with which we walk. For every action +and for every thought, we draw upon the store of force that we have +gained from air and food. We create no force; we borrow it all. +As force cannot exist apart from matter, it must be used _with_ +matter. It travels only on material roads. It is impossible to +convey a thought to another without the assistance of matter. No +one can conceive of the use of one of our senses without substance. +No one can conceive of a thought in the absence of the senses. +With these conclusions in my mind--in my brain--I have not the +slightest confidence in "spiritual manifestations," and do not +believe that any message has ever been received from the dead. +The testimony that I have heard--that I have read--coming even from +men of science--has not the slightest weight with me. I do not +pretend to see beyond the grave. I do not say that man is, or is +not, immortal. All I say is that there is no evidence that we live +again, and no demonstration that we do not. It is better ignorantly +to hope than dishonestly to affirm. + +_Question_. And what do you think of the modern development of +metaphysics--as expressed outside of the emotional and semi- +ecclesiastical schools? I refer especially to the power of mind +in the curing of disease--as demonstrated by scores of drugless +healers. + +_Answer_. I have no doubt that the condition of the mind has some +effect upon the health. The blood, the heart, the lungs answer-- +respond to--emotion. There is no mind without body, and the body +is affected by thought--by passion, by cheerfulness, by depression. +Still, I have not the slightest confidence in what is called "mind +cure." I do not believe that thought, or any set of ideas, can +cure a cancer, or prevent the hair from falling out, or remove a +tumor, or even freckles. At the same time, I admit that cheerfulness +is good and depression bad. But I have no confidence in what you +call "drugless healers." If the stomach is sour, soda is better +than thinking. If one is in great pain, opium will beat meditation. +I am a believer in what you call "drugs," and when I am sick I send +for a physician. I have no confidence in the supernatural. Magic +is not medicine. + +_Question_. One great object of this movement, is to make religion +scientific--an aid to intellectual as well as spiritual progress. +Is it not thus to be encouraged, and destined to succeed--even +though it prove the reality and supremacy of the spirit and the +secondary importance of the flesh? + +_Answer_. When religion becomes scientific, it ceases to be religion +and becomes science. Religion is not intellectual--it is emotional. +It does not appeal to the reason. The founder of a religion has +always said: "Let him that hath ears to hear, hear!" No founder +has said: "Let him that hath brains to think, think!" Besides, +we need not trouble ourselves about "spirit" and "flesh." We know +that we know of no spirit--without flesh. We have no evidence that +spirit ever did or ever will exist apart from flesh. Such existence +is absolutely inconceivable. If we are going to construct what +you call a "religion," it must be founded on observed and known +facts. Theories, to be of value, must be in accord with all the +facts that are known; otherwise they are worthless. We need not +try to get back of facts or behind the truth. The _why_ will +forever elude us. You cannot move your hand quickly enough to +grasp your image back of the mirror. + +--_Mind_, New York, March, 1899. + + + +THIS CENTURY'S GLORIES. + +The laurel of the nineteenth century is on Darwin's brow. This +century has been the greatest of all. The inventions, the discoveries, +the victories on the fields of thought, the advances in nearly +every direction of human effort are without parallel in human +history. In only two directions have the achievements of this +century been excelled. The marbles of Greece have not been equalled. +They still occupy the niches dedicated to perfection. They sculptors +of our century stand before the miracles of the Greeks in impotent +wonder. They cannot even copy. They cannot give the breath of +life to stone and make the marble feel and think. The plays of +Shakespeare have never been approached. He reached the summit, +filled the horizon. In the direction of the dramatic, the poetic, +the human mind, in my judgment, in Shakespeare's plays reached its +limit. The field was harvested, all the secrets of the heart were +told. The buds of all hopes blossomed, all seas were crossed and +all the shores were touched. + +With these two exceptions, the Grecian marbles and the Shakespeare +plays, the nineteenth century has produced more for the benefit of +man than all the centuries of the past. In this century, in one +direction, I think the mind has reached the limit. I do not believe +the music of Wagner will ever be excelled. He changed all passions, +longing, memories and aspirations into tones, and with subtle +harmonies wove tapestries of sound, whereon were pictured the past +and future, the history and prophecy of the human heart. Of course +Copernicus, Galileo, Newton and Kepler laid the foundations of +astronomy. It may be that the three laws of Kepler mark the highest +point in that direction that the mind has reached. + +In the other centuries there is now and then a peak, but through +ours there runs a mountain range with Alp on Alp--the steamship +that has conquered all the seas; the railway, with its steeds of +steel with breath of flame, covers the land; the cables and +telegraphs, along which lightning is the carrier of thought, have +made the nations neighbors and brought the world to every home; +the making of paper from wood, the printing presses that made it +possible to give the history of the human race each day; the reapers, +mowers and threshers that superseded the cradles, scythes and +flails; the lighting of streets and houses with gas and incandescent +lamps, changing night into day; the invention of matches that made +fire the companion of man; the process of making steel, invented +by Bessemer, saving for the world hundreds of millions a year; the +discovery of anesthetics, changing pain to happy dreams and making +surgery a science; the spectrum analysis, that told us the secrets +of the suns; the telephone, that transports speech, uniting lips +and ears; the phonograph, that holds in dots and marks the echoes +of our words; the marvelous machines that spin and weave, that +manufacture the countless things of use, the marvelous machines, +whose wheels and levers seem to think; the discoveries in chemistry, +the wave theory of light, the indestructibility of matter and force; +the discovery of microbes and bacilli, so that now the plague can +be stayed without the assistance of priests. + +The art of photography became known, the sun became an artist, gave +us the faces of our friends, copies of the great paintings and +statues, pictures of the world's wonders, and enriched the eyes of +poverty with the spoil of travel, the wealth of art. The cell +theory was advanced, embryology was studied and science entered +the secret house of life. The biologists, guided by fossil forms, +followed the paths of life from protoplasm up to man. Then came +Darwin with the "Origin of Species," "Natural Selection," and the +"Survival of the Fittest." From his brain there came a flood of +light. The old theories grew foolish and absurd. The temple of +every science was rebuilt. That which had been called philosophy +became childish superstition. The prison doors were opened and +millions of convicts, of unconscious slaves, roved with joy over +the fenceless fields of freedom. Darwin and Haeckel and Huxley +and their fellow-workers filled the night of ignorance with the +glittering stars of truth. This is Darwin's victory. He gained +the greatest victory, the grandest triumph. The laurel of the +nineteenth century is on his brow. + +_Question_. How does the literature of to-day compare with that +of the first half of the century, in your opinion? + +_Answer_. There is now no poet of laughter and tears, of comedy +and pathos, the equal of Hood. There is none with the subtle +delicacy, the aerial footstep, the flame-like motion of Shelley; +none with the amplitude, sweep and passion, with the strength and +beauty, the courage and royal recklessness of Byron. The novelists +of our day are not the equals of Dickens. In my judgment, Dickens +wrote the greatest of all novels. "The Tale of Two Cities" is the +supreme work of fiction. Its philosophy is perfect. The characters +stand out like living statues. In its pages you find the blood +and flame, the ferocity and self-sacrifice of the French Revolution. +In the bosom of the Vengeance is the heart of the horror. In 105, +North Tower, sits one whom sorrow drove beyond the verge, rescued +from death by insanity, and we see the spirit of Dr. Manette +tremblingly cross the great gulf that lies between the night of +dreams and the blessed day, where things are as they seem, as a +tress of golden hair, while on his hands and cheeks fall Lucie's +blessed tears. The story is filled with lights and shadows, with +the tragic and grotesque. While the woman knits, while the heads +fall, Jerry Cruncher gnaws his rusty nails and his poor wife "flops" +against his business, and prim Miss Pross, who in the desperation +and terror of love held Mme. Defarge in her arms and who in the +flash and crash found that her burden was dead, is drawn by the +hand of a master. And what shall I say of Sidney Carton? Of his +last walk? Of his last ride, holding the poor girl by the hand? +Is there a more wonderful character in all the realm of fiction? +Sidney Carton, the perfect lover, going to his death for the love +of one who loves another. To me the three greatest novels are "The +Tale of Two Cities," by Dickens, "Les Miserables," by Hugo, and +"Ariadne," by Ouida. + +"Les Miserables" is full of faults and perfections. The tragic is +sometimes pushed to the grotesque, but from the depths it brings +the pearls of truth. A convict becomes holier than the saint, a +prostitute purer than the nun. This book fills the gutter with +the glory of heaven, while the waters of the sewer reflect the +stars. + +In "Ariadne" you find the aroma of all art. It is a classic dream. +And there, too, you find the hot blood of full and ample life. +Ouida is the greatest living writer of fiction. Some of her books +I do not like. If you wish to know what Ouida really is, read +"Wanda," "The Dog of Flanders," "The Leaf in a Storm." In these +you will hear the beating of her heart. + +Most of the novelists of our time write good stories. They are +ingenious, the characters are well drawn, but they lack life, +energy. They do not appear to act for themselves, impelled by +inner force. They seem to be pushed and pulled. The same may be +said of the poets. Tennyson belongs to the latter half of our +century. He was undoubtedly a great writer. He had no flame or +storm, no tidal wave, nothing volcanic. He never overflowed the +banks. He wrote nothing as intense, as noble and pathetic as the +"Prisoner of Chillon;" nothing as purely poetic as "The Skylark;" +nothing as perfect as the "Grecian Urn," and yet he was one of the +greatest of poets. Viewed from all sides he was far greater than +Shelley, far nobler than Keats. In a few poems Shelley reached +almost the perfect, but many are weak, feeble, fragmentary, almost +meaningless. So Keats in three poems reached a great height--in +"St. Agnes' Eve," "The Grecian Urn," and "The Nightingale"--but +most of his poetry is insipid, without thought, beauty or sincerity. + +We have had some poets ourselves. Emerson wrote many poetic and +philosophic lines. He never violated any rule. He kept his passions +under control and generally "kept off the grass." But he uttered +some great and splendid truths and sowed countless seeds of +suggestion. When we remember that he came of a line of New England +preachers we are amazed at the breadth, the depth and the freedom +of his thought. + +Walt Whitman wrote a few great poems, elemental, natural--poems +that seem to be a part of nature, ample as the sky, having the +rhythm of the tides, the swing of a planet. + +Whitcomb Riley has written poems of hearth and home, of love and +labor worthy of Robert Burns. He is the sweetest, strongest singer +in our country and I do not know his equal in any land. + +But when we compare the literature of the first half of this century +with that of the last, we are compelled to say that the last, taken +as a whole, is best. Think of the volumes that science has given +to the world. In the first half of this century, sermons, orthodox +sermons, were published and read. Now reading sermons is one of +the lost habits. Taken as a whole, the literature of the latter +half of our century is better than the first. I like the essays +of Prof. Clifford. They are so clear, so logical that they are +poetic. Herbert Spencer is not simply instructive, he is charming. +He is full of true imagination. He is not the slave of imagination. +Imagination is his servant. Huxley wrote like a trained swordsman. +His thrusts were never parried. He had superb courage. He never +apologized for having an opinion. There was never on his soul the +stain of evasion. He was as candid as the truth. Haeckel is a +great writer because he reveres a fact, and would not for his life +deny or misinterpret one. He tells what he knows with the candor +of a child and defends his conclusions like a scientist, a philosopher. +He stands next to Darwin. + +Coming back to fiction and poetry, I have great admiration for +Edgar Fawcett. There is in his poetry thought, beauty and philosophy. +He has the courage of his thought. He knows our language, the +energy of verbs, the color of adjectives. He is in the highest +sense an artist. + +_Question_. What do you think of Hall Caine's recent efforts to +bring about a closer union between the stage and pulpit? + +_Answer_. Of course, I am not certain as to the intentions of Mr. +Caine. I saw "The Christian," and it did not seem to me that the +author was trying to catch the clergy. + +There is certainly nothing in the play calculated to please the +pulpit. There is a clergyman who is pious and heartless. John +Storm is the only Christian, and he is crazy. When Glory accepts +him at last, you not only feel, but you know she has acted the +fool. The lord in the piece is a dog, and the real gentleman is +the chap that runs the music hall. How the play can please the +pulpit I do not see. Storm's whole career is a failure. His +followers turn on him like wild beasts. His religion is a divine +and diabolical dream. With him murder is one of the means of +salvation. Mr. Caine has struck Christianity a stinging blow +between the eyes. He has put two preachers on the stage, one a +heartless hypocrite and the other a madman. Certainly I am not +prejudiced in favor of Christianity, and yet I enjoyed the play. +If Mr. Caine says he is trying to bring the stage and the pulpit +together, then he is a humorist, with the humor of Rabelais. + +_Question_. What do recent exhibitions in this city, of scenes +from the life of Christ, indicate with regard to the tendencies of +modern art? + +_Answer_. Nothing. Some artists love the sombre, the melancholy, +the hopeless. They enjoy painting the bowed form, the tear-filled +eyes. To them grief is a festival. There are people who find +pleasure in funerals. They love to watch the mourners. The falling +clods make music. They love the silence, the heavy odors, the +sorrowful hymns and the preacher's remarks. The feelings of such +people do not indicate the general trend of the human mind. Even +a poor artist may hope for success if he represents something in +which many millions are deeply interested, around which their +emotions cling like vines. A man need not be an orator to make a +patriotic speech, a speech that flatters his audience. So, an +artist need not be great in order to satisfy, if his subject appeals +to the prejudice of those who look at his pictures. + +I have never seen a good painting of Christ. All the Christs that +I have seen lack strength and character. They look weak and +despairing. They are all unhealthy. They have the attitude of +apology, the sickly smile of non-resistance. I have never seen an +heroic, serene and triumphant Christ. To tell the truth, I never +saw a great religious picture. They lack sincerity. All the angels +look almost idiotic. In their eyes is no thought, only the innocence +of ignorance. + +I think that art is leaving the celestial, the angelic, and is +getting in love with the natural, the human. Troyon put more genius +in the representation of cattle than Angelo and Raphael did in +angels. No picture has been painted of heaven that is as beautiful +as a landscape by Corot. The aim of art is to represent the +realities, the highest and noblest, the most beautiful. The Greeks +did not try to make men like gods, but they made gods like men. +So that great artists of our day go to nature. + +_Question_. Is it not strange that, with one exception, the most +notable operas written since Wagner are by Italian composers instead +of German? + +_Answer_. For many years German musicians insisted that Wagner +was not a composer. They declared that he produced only a succession +of discordant noises. I account for this by the fact that the +music of Wagner was not German. His countrymen could not understand +it. They had to be educated. There was no orchestra in Germany +that could really play "Tristan and Isolde." Its eloquence, its +pathos, its shoreless passion was beyond them. There is no reason +to suppose that Germany is to produce another Wagner. Is England +expected to give us another Shakespeare? + +--_The Sun_, New York, March 19, 1899. + + +CAPITAL PUNISHMENT AND THE WHIPPING-POST. + +_Question_. What do you think of Governor Roosevelt's decision in +the case of Mrs. Place? + +_Answer_. I think the refusal of Governor Roosevelt to commute +the sentence of Mrs. Place is a disgrace to the State. What a +spectacle of man killing a woman--taking a poor, pallid, frightened +woman, strapping her to a chair and then arranging the apparatus +so she can be shocked to death. Many call this a Christian country. +A good many people who believe in hell would naturally feel it +their duty to kill a wretched, insane woman. + +Society has a right to protect itself, but this can be done by +imprisonment, and it is more humane to put a criminal in a cell +than in a grave. Capital punishment degrades and hardens a +community and it is a work of savagery. It is savagery. Capital +punishment does not prevent murder, but sets an example--an example +by the State--that is followed by its citizens. The State murders +its enemies and the citizen murders his. Any punishment that +degrades the punished, must necessarily degrade the one inflicting +the punishment. No punishment should be inflicted by a human being +that could not be inflicted by a gentleman. + +For instance, take the whipping-post. Some people are in favor of +flogging because they say that some offences are of such a frightful +nature that flogging is the only punishment. They forget that the +punishment must be inflicted by somebody, and that somebody is a +low and contemptible cur. I understand that John G. Shortall, +president of the Humane Society of Illinois, has had a bill introduced +into the Legislature of the State for the establishment of the +whipping-post. + +The shadow of that post would disgrace and darken the whole State. +Nothing could be more infamous, and yet this man is president of +the Humane Society. Now, the question arises, what is humane about +this society? Certainly not its president. Undoubtedly he is +sincere. Certainly no man would take that position unless he was +sincere. Nobody deliberately pretends to be bad, but the idea of +his being president of the Humane Society is simply preposterous. +With his idea about the whipping-post he might join a society of +hyenas for the cultivation of ferocity, for certainly nothing short +of that would do justice to his bill. I have too much confidence +in the legislators of that State, and maybe my confidence rests in +the fact that I do not know them, to think that the passage of such +a bill is possible. If it were passed I think I would be justified +in using the language of the old Marylander, who said, "I have +lived in Maryland fifty years, but I have never counted them, and +my hope is, that God won't." + +_Question_. What did you think of the late Joseph Medill? + +_Answer_. I was not very well acquainted with Mr. Medill. I had +a good many conversations with him, and I was quite familiar with +his work. I regard him as the greatest editor of the Northwestern +States and I am not sure that there was a greater one in the country. +He was one of the builders of the Republican party. He was on the +right side of the great question of Liberty. He was a man of strong +likes and I may say dislikes. He never surrendered his personality. +The atom called Joseph Medill was never lost in the aggregation +known as the Republican party. He was true to that party when it +was true to him. As a rule he traveled a road of his own and he +never seemed to have any doubt about where the road led. I think +that he was an exceedingly useful man. I think the only true +religion is usefulness. He was a very strong writer, and when +touched by friendship for a man, or a cause, he occasionally wrote +very great paragraphs, and paragraphs full of force and most +admirably expressed. + +--_The Tribune_, Chicago, March 19, 1899. + + +EXPANSION AND TRUSTS.* + +[* This was Colonel Ingersoll's last interview.] + +I am an expansionist. The country has the land hunger and expansion +is popular. I want all we can honestly get. + +But I do not want the Philippines unless the Filipinos want us, +and I feel exactly the same about the Cubans. + +We paid twenty millions of dollars to Spain for the Philippine +Islands, and we knew that Spain had no title to them. + +The question with me is not one of trade or convenience; it is a +question of right or wrong. I think the best patriot is the man +who wants his country to do right. + +The Philippines would be a very valuable possession to us, in view +of their proximity to China. But, however desirable they may be, +that cuts no figure. We must do right. We must act nobly toward +the Filipinos, whether we get the islands or not. + +I would like to see peace between us and the Filipinos; peace +honorable to both; peace based on reason instead of force. + +If control had been given to Dewey, if Miles had been sent to +Manila, I do not believe that a shot would have been fired at the +Filipinos, and that they would have welcomed the American flag. + +_Question_. Although you are not in favor of taking the Philippines +by force, how do you regard the administration in its conduct of +the war? + +_Answer_. They have made many mistakes at Washington, and they +are still making many. If it has been decided to conquer the +Filipinos, then conquer them at once. Let the struggle not be +drawn out and the drops of blood multiplied. The Republican party +is being weakened by inaction at the Capital. If the war is not +ended shortly, the party in power will feel the evil effects at +the presidential election. + +_Question_. In what light do you regard the Philippines as an +addition to the territory of the United States? + +_Answer_. Probably in the future, and possibly in the near future, +the value of the islands to this country could hardly be calculated. +The division of China which is bound to come, will open a market +of four hundred millions of people. Naturally a possession close +to the open doors of the East would be of an almost incalculable +value to this country. + +It might perhaps take a long time to teach the Chinese that they +need our products. But suppose that the Chinese came to look upon +wheat in the same light that other people look upon wheat and its +product, bread? What an immense amount of grain it would take to +feed four hundred million hungry Chinamen! + +The same would be the case with the rest of our products. So you +will perhaps agree with me in my view of the immense value of the +islands if they could but be obtained by honorable means. + +_Question_. If the Democratic party makes anti-imperialism the +prominent plank in its platform, what effect will it have on the +party's chance for success? + +_Answer_. Anti-imperialism, as the Democratic battle-cry, would +greatly weaken a party already very weak. It is the most unpopular +issue of the day. The people want expansion. The country is +infected with patriotic enthusiasm. The party that tries to resist +the tidal wave will be swept away. Anybody who looks can see. + +Let a band at any of the summer resorts or at the suburban breathing +spots play a patriotic air. The listeners are electrified, and +they rise and off go their hats when "The Star-Spangled Banner" is +struck up. Imperialism cannot be fought with success. + +_Question_. Will the Democratic party have a strong issue in its +anti-trust cry? + +_Answer_. In my opinion, both parties will nail anti-trust planks +in their platforms. But this talk is all bosh with both parties. +Neither one is honest in its cry against trusts. The one making +the more noise in this direction may get the votes of some unthinking +persons, but every one who is capable of reading and digesting what +he reads, knows full well that the leaders of neither party are +sincere and honest in their demonstrations against the trusts. + +Why should the Democratic party lay claim to any anti-trust glory? +Is it not a Republican administration that is at present investigating +the alleged evils of trusts? + +--_The North American_, Philadelphia, June 22, 1899. + + + + + + +End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of The Works of Robert G. Ingersoll, +Volume VIII., by Robert Green Ingersoll + +*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WORKS OF ROBERT G. 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