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diff --git a/old/2lcbd10.txt b/old/2lcbd10.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..0cf07cb --- /dev/null +++ b/old/2lcbd10.txt @@ -0,0 +1,1080 @@ +The Project Gutenberg Etext of Alcibiades II by Platonic Imitator +#21 in our series by Plato [This is almost certainly NOT Plato!!] + +Copyright laws are changing all over the world, be sure to check +the copyright laws for your country before posting these files!! + +Please take a look at the important information in this header. +We encourage you to keep this file on your own disk, keeping an +electronic path open for the next readers. Do not remove this. + + +**Welcome To The World of Free Plain Vanilla Electronic Texts** + +**Etexts Readable By Both Humans and By Computers, Since 1971** + +*These Etexts Prepared By Hundreds of Volunteers and Donations* + +Information on contacting Project Gutenberg to get Etexts, and +further information is included below. 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FOR PUBLIC DOMAIN ETEXTS*Ver.04.29.93*END* + + + + + +This etext was prepared by Sue Asscher <asschers@aia.net.au> + + + + + +ALCIBIADES II + +by Platonic Imitator (see Appendix II) + + + + +Translated by Benjamin Jowett + + + + +APPENDIX II. + +The two dialogues which are translated in the second appendix are not +mentioned by Aristotle, or by any early authority, and have no claim to be +ascribed to Plato. They are examples of Platonic dialogues to be assigned +probably to the second or third generation after Plato, when his writings +were well known at Athens and Alexandria. They exhibit considerable +originality, and are remarkable for containing several thoughts of the sort +which we suppose to be modern rather than ancient, and which therefore have +a peculiar interest for us. The Second Alcibiades shows that the +difficulties about prayer which have perplexed Christian theologians were +not unknown among the followers of Plato. The Eryxias was doubted by the +ancients themselves: yet it may claim the distinction of being, among all +Greek or Roman writings, the one which anticipates in the most striking +manner the modern science of political economy and gives an abstract form +to some of its principal doctrines. + +For the translation of these two dialogues I am indebted to my friend and +secretary, Mr. Knight. + +That the Dialogue which goes by the name of the Second Alcibiades is a +genuine writing of Plato will not be maintained by any modern critic, and +was hardly believed by the ancients themselves. The dialectic is poor and +weak. There is no power over language, or beauty of style; and there is a +certain abruptness and agroikia in the conversation, which is very un- +Platonic. The best passage is probably that about the poets:--the remark +that the poet, who is of a reserved disposition, is uncommonly difficult to +understand, and the ridiculous interpretation of Homer, are entirely in the +spirit of Plato (compare Protag; Ion; Apol.). The characters are ill- +drawn. Socrates assumes the 'superior person' and preaches too much, while +Alcibiades is stupid and heavy-in-hand. There are traces of Stoic +influence in the general tone and phraseology of the Dialogue (compare opos +melesei tis...kaka: oti pas aphron mainetai): and the writer seems to +have been acquainted with the 'Laws' of Plato (compare Laws). An incident +from the Symposium is rather clumsily introduced, and two somewhat +hackneyed quotations (Symp., Gorg.) recur. The reference to the death of +Archelaus as having occurred 'quite lately' is only a fiction, probably +suggested by the Gorgias, where the story of Archelaus is told, and a +similar phrase occurs;--ta gar echthes kai proen gegonota tauta, k.t.l. +There are several passages which are either corrupt or extremely ill- +expressed. But there is a modern interest in the subject of the dialogue; +and it is a good example of a short spurious work, which may be attributed +to the second or third century before Christ. + + +ALCIBIADES II + +by + +Platonic Imitator (see Appendix II above) + +Translated by Benjamin Jowett + + +PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Socrates and Alcibiades. + + +SOCRATES: Are you going, Alcibiades, to offer prayer to Zeus? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes, Socrates, I am. + +SOCRATES: you seem to be troubled and to cast your eyes on the ground, as +though you were thinking about something. + +ALCIBIADES: Of what do you suppose that I am thinking? + +SOCRATES: Of the greatest of all things, as I believe. Tell me, do you +not suppose that the Gods sometimes partly grant and partly reject the +requests which we make in public and private, and favour some persons and +not others? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: Do you not imagine, then, that a man ought to be very careful, +lest perchance without knowing it he implore great evils for himself, +deeming that he is asking for good, especially if the Gods are in the mood +to grant whatever he may request? There is the story of Oedipus, for +instance, who prayed that his children might divide their inheritance +between them by the sword: he did not, as he might have done, beg that his +present evils might be averted, but called down new ones. And was not his +prayer accomplished, and did not many and terrible evils thence arise, upon +which I need not dilate? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes, Socrates, but you are speaking of a madman: surely you +do not think that any one in his senses would venture to make such a +prayer? + +SOCRATES: Madness, then, you consider to be the opposite of discretion? + +ALCIBIADES: Of course. + +SOCRATES: And some men seem to you to be discreet, and others the +contrary? + +ALCIBIADES: They do. + +SOCRATES: Well, then, let us discuss who these are. We acknowledge that +some are discreet, some foolish, and that some are mad? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And again, there are some who are in health? + +ALCIBIADES: There are. + +SOCRATES: While others are ailing? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And they are not the same? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. + +SOCRATES: Nor are there any who are in neither state? + +ALCIBIADES: No. + +SOCRATES: A man must either be sick or be well? + +ALCIBIADES: That is my opinion. + +SOCRATES: Very good: and do you think the same about discretion and want +of discretion? + +ALCIBIADES: How do you mean? + +SOCRATES: Do you believe that a man must be either in or out of his +senses; or is there some third or intermediate condition, in which he is +neither one nor the other? + +ALCIBIADES: Decidedly not. + +SOCRATES: He must be either sane or insane? + +ALCIBIADES: So I suppose. + +SOCRATES: Did you not acknowledge that madness was the opposite of +discretion? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And that there is no third or middle term between discretion and +indiscretion? + +ALCIBIADES: True. + +SOCRATES: And there cannot be two opposites to one thing? + +ALCIBIADES: There cannot. + +SOCRATES: Then madness and want of sense are the same? + +ALCIBIADES: That appears to be the case. + +SOCRATES: We shall be in the right, therefore, Alcibiades, if we say that +all who are senseless are mad. For example, if among persons of your own +age or older than yourself there are some who are senseless,--as there +certainly are,--they are mad. For tell me, by heaven, do you not think +that in the city the wise are few, while the foolish, whom you call mad, +are many? + +ALCIBIADES: I do. + +SOCRATES: But how could we live in safety with so many crazy people? +Should we not long since have paid the penalty at their hands, and have +been struck and beaten and endured every other form of ill-usage which +madmen are wont to inflict? Consider, my dear friend: may it not be quite +otherwise? + +ALCIBIADES: Why, Socrates, how is that possible? I must have been +mistaken. + +SOCRATES: So it seems to me. But perhaps we may consider the matter +thus:-- + +ALCIBIADES: How? + +SOCRATES: I will tell you. We think that some are sick; do we not? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And must every sick person either have the gout, or be in a +fever, or suffer from ophthalmia? Or do you believe that a man may labour +under some other disease, even although he has none of these complaints? +Surely, they are not the only maladies which exist? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. + +SOCRATES: And is every kind of ophthalmia a disease? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And every disease ophthalmia? + +ALCIBIADES: Surely not. But I scarcely understand what I mean myself. + +SOCRATES: Perhaps, if you give me your best attention, 'two of us' looking +together, we may find what we seek. + +ALCIBIADES: I am attending, Socrates, to the best of my power. + +SOCRATES: We are agreed, then, that every form of ophthalmia is a disease, +but not every disease ophthalmia? + +ALCIBIADES: We are. + +SOCRATES: And so far we seem to be right. For every one who suffers from +a fever is sick; but the sick, I conceive, do not all have fever or gout or +ophthalmia, although each of these is a disease, which, according to those +whom we call physicians, may require a different treatment. They are not +all alike, nor do they produce the same result, but each has its own +effect, and yet they are all diseases. May we not take an illustration +from the artizans? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: There are cobblers and carpenters and sculptors and others of +all sorts and kinds, whom we need not stop to enumerate. All have their +distinct employments and all are workmen, although they are not all of them +cobblers or carpenters or sculptors. + +ALCIBIADES: No, indeed. + +SOCRATES: And in like manner men differ in regard to want of sense. Those +who are most out of their wits we call 'madmen,' while we term those who +are less far gone 'stupid' or 'idiotic,' or, if we prefer gentler language, +describe them as 'romantic' or 'simple-minded,' or, again, as 'innocent' or +'inexperienced' or 'foolish.' You may even find other names, if you seek +for them; but by all of them lack of sense is intended. They only differ +as one art appeared to us to differ from another or one disease from +another. Or what is your opinion? + +ALCIBIADES: I agree with you. + +SOCRATES: Then let us return to the point at which we digressed. We said +at first that we should have to consider who were the wise and who the +foolish. For we acknowledged that there are these two classes? Did we +not? + +ALCIBIADES: To be sure. + +SOCRATES: And you regard those as sensible who know what ought to be done +or said? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: The senseless are those who do not know this? + +ALCIBIADES: True. + +SOCRATES: The latter will say or do what they ought not without their own +knowledge? + +ALCIBIADES: Exactly. + +SOCRATES: Oedipus, as I was saying, Alcibiades, was a person of this sort. +And even now-a-days you will find many who (have offered inauspicious +prayers), although, unlike him, they were not in anger nor thought that +they were asking evil. He neither sought, nor supposed that he sought for +good, but others have had quite the contrary notion. I believe that if the +God whom you are about to consult should appear to you, and, in +anticipation of your request, enquired whether you would be contented to +become tyrant of Athens, and if this seemed in your eyes a small and mean +thing, should add to it the dominion of all Hellas; and seeing that even +then you would not be satisfied unless you were ruler of the whole of +Europe, should promise, not only that, but, if you so desired, should +proclaim to all mankind in one and the same day that Alcibiades, son of +Cleinias, was tyrant:--in such a case, I imagine, you would depart full of +joy, as one who had obtained the greatest of goods. + +ALCIBIADES: And not only I, Socrates, but any one else who should meet +with such luck. + +SOCRATES: Yet you would not accept the dominion and lordship of all the +Hellenes and all the barbarians in exchange for your life? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly not: for then what use could I make of them? + +SOCRATES: And would you accept them if you were likely to use them to a +bad and mischievous end? + +ALCIBIADES: I would not. + +SOCRATES: You see that it is not safe for a man either rashly to accept +whatever is offered him, or himself to request a thing, if he is likely to +suffer thereby or immediately to lose his life. And yet we could tell of +many who, having long desired and diligently laboured to obtain a tyranny, +thinking that thus they would procure an advantage, have nevertheless +fallen victims to designing enemies. You must have heard of what happened +only the other day, how Archelaus of Macedonia was slain by his beloved +(compare Aristotle, Pol.), whose love for the tyranny was not less than +that of Archelaus for him. The tyrannicide expected by his crime to become +tyrant and afterwards to have a happy life; but when he had held the +tyranny three or four days, he was in his turn conspired against and slain. +Or look at certain of our own citizens,--and of their actions we have been +not hearers, but eyewitnesses,--who have desired to obtain military +command: of those who have gained their object, some are even to this day +exiles from the city, while others have lost their lives. And even they +who seem to have fared best, have not only gone through many perils and +terrors during their office, but after their return home they have been +beset by informers worse than they once were by their foes, insomuch that +several of them have wished that they had remained in a private station +rather than have had the glories of command. If, indeed, such perils and +terrors were of profit to the commonwealth, there would be reason in +undergoing them; but the very contrary is the case. Again, you will find +persons who have prayed for offspring, and when their prayers were heard, +have fallen into the greatest pains and sufferings. For some have begotten +children who were utterly bad, and have therefore passed all their days in +misery, while the parents of good children have undergone the misfortune of +losing them, and have been so little happier than the others that they +would have preferred never to have had children rather than to have had +them and lost them. And yet, although these and the like examples are +manifest and known of all, it is rare to find any one who has refused what +has been offered him, or, if he were likely to gain aught by prayer, has +refrained from making his petition. The mass of mankind would not decline +to accept a tyranny, or the command of an army, or any of the numerous +things which cause more harm than good: but rather, if they had them not, +would have prayed to obtain them. And often in a short space of time they +change their tone, and wish their old prayers unsaid. Wherefore also I +suspect that men are entirely wrong when they blame the gods as the authors +of the ills which befall them (compare Republic): 'their own presumption,' +or folly (whichever is the right word)-- + +'Has brought these unmeasured woes upon them.' (Homer. Odyss.) + +He must have been a wise poet, Alcibiades, who, seeing as I believe, his +friends foolishly praying for and doing things which would not really +profit them, offered up a common prayer in behalf of them all:-- + +'King Zeus, grant us good whether prayed for or unsought by us; +But that which we ask amiss, do thou avert.' (The author of these lines, +which are probably of Pythagorean origin, is unknown. They are found also +in the Anthology (Anth. Pal.).) + +In my opinion, I say, the poet spoke both well and prudently; but if you +have anything to say in answer to him, speak out. + +ALCIBIADES: It is difficult, Socrates, to oppose what has been well said. +And I perceive how many are the ills of which ignorance is the cause, +since, as would appear, through ignorance we not only do, but what is +worse, pray for the greatest evils. No man would imagine that he would do +so; he would rather suppose that he was quite capable of praying for what +was best: to call down evils seems more like a curse than a prayer. + +SOCRATES: But perhaps, my good friend, some one who is wiser than either +you or I will say that we have no right to blame ignorance thus rashly, +unless we can add what ignorance we mean and of what, and also to whom and +how it is respectively a good or an evil? + +ALCIBIADES: How do you mean? Can ignorance possibly be better than +knowledge for any person in any conceivable case? + +SOCRATES: So I believe:--you do not think so? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. + +SOCRATES: And yet surely I may not suppose that you would ever wish to act +towards your mother as they say that Orestes and Alcmeon and others have +done towards their parent. + +ALCIBIADES: Good words, Socrates, prithee. + +SOCRATES: You ought not to bid him use auspicious words, who says that you +would not be willing to commit so horrible a deed, but rather him who +affirms the contrary, if the act appear to you unfit even to be mentioned. +Or do you think that Orestes, had he been in his senses and knew what was +best for him to do, would ever have dared to venture on such a crime? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. + +SOCRATES: Nor would any one else, I fancy? + +ALCIBIADES: No. + +SOCRATES: That ignorance is bad then, it would appear, which is of the +best and does not know what is best? + +ALCIBIADES: So I think, at least. + +SOCRATES: And both to the person who is ignorant and everybody else? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: Let us take another case. Suppose that you were suddenly to get +into your head that it would be a good thing to kill Pericles, your kinsman +and guardian, and were to seize a sword and, going to the doors of his +house, were to enquire if he were at home, meaning to slay only him and no +one else:--the servants reply, 'Yes': (Mind, I do not mean that you would +really do such a thing; but there is nothing, you think, to prevent a man +who is ignorant of the best, having occasionally the whim that what is +worst is best? + +ALCIBIADES: No.) + +SOCRATES:--If, then, you went indoors, and seeing him, did not know him, +but thought that he was some one else, would you venture to slay him? + +ALCIBIADES: Most decidedly not (it seems to me). (These words are omitted +in several MSS.) + +SOCRATES: For you designed to kill, not the first who offered, but +Pericles himself? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: And if you made many attempts, and each time failed to recognize +Pericles, you would never attack him? + +ALCIBIADES: Never. + +SOCRATES: Well, but if Orestes in like manner had not known his mother, do +you think that he would ever have laid hands upon her? + +ALCIBIADES: No. + +SOCRATES: He did not intend to slay the first woman he came across, nor +any one else's mother, but only his own? + +ALCIBIADES: True. + +SOCRATES: Ignorance, then, is better for those who are in such a frame of +mind, and have such ideas? + +ALCIBIADES: Obviously. + +SOCRATES: You acknowledge that for some persons in certain cases the +ignorance of some things is a good and not an evil, as you formerly +supposed? + +ALCIBIADES: I do. + +SOCRATES: And there is still another case which will also perhaps appear +strange to you, if you will consider it? (The reading is here uncertain.) + +ALCIBIADES: What is that, Socrates? + +SOCRATES: It may be, in short, that the possession of all the sciences, if +unaccompanied by the knowledge of the best, will more often than not injure +the possessor. Consider the matter thus:--Must we not, when we intend +either to do or say anything, suppose that we know or ought to know that +which we propose so confidently to do or say? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes, in my opinion. + +SOCRATES: We may take the orators for an example, who from time to time +advise us about war and peace, or the building of walls and the +construction of harbours, whether they understand the business in hand, or +only think that they do. Whatever the city, in a word, does to another +city, or in the management of her own affairs, all happens by the counsel +of the orators. + +ALCIBIADES: True. + +SOCRATES: But now see what follows, if I can (make it clear to you). +(Some words appear to have dropped out here.) You would distinguish the +wise from the foolish? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: The many are foolish, the few wise? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: And you use both the terms, 'wise' and 'foolish,' in reference +to something? + +ALCIBIADES: I do. + +SOCRATES: Would you call a person wise who can give advice, but does not +know whether or when it is better to carry out the advice? + +ALCIBIADES: Decidedly not. + +SOCRATES: Nor again, I suppose, a person who knows the art of war, but +does not know whether it is better to go to war or for how long? + +ALCIBIADES: No. + +SOCRATES: Nor, once more, a person who knows how to kill another or to +take away his property or to drive him from his native land, but not when +it is better to do so or for whom it is better? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. + +SOCRATES: But he who understands anything of the kind and has at the same +time the knowledge of the best course of action:--and the best and the +useful are surely the same?-- + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES:--Such an one, I say, we should call wise and a useful adviser +both of himself and of the city. What do you think? + +ALCIBIADES: I agree. + +SOCRATES: And if any one knows how to ride or to shoot with the bow or to +box or to wrestle, or to engage in any other sort of contest or to do +anything whatever which is in the nature of an art,--what do you call him +who knows what is best according to that art? Do you not speak of one who +knows what is best in riding as a good rider? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And in a similar way you speak of a good boxer or a good flute- +player or a good performer in any other art? + +ALCIBIADES: True. + +SOCRATES: But is it necessary that the man who is clever in any of these +arts should be wise also in general? Or is there a difference between the +clever artist and the wise man? + +ALCIBIADES: All the difference in the world. + +SOCRATES: And what sort of a state do you think that would be which was +composed of good archers and flute-players and athletes and masters in +other arts, and besides them of those others about whom we spoke, who knew +how to go to war and how to kill, as well as of orators puffed up with +political pride, but in which not one of them all had this knowledge of the +best, and there was no one who could tell when it was better to apply any +of these arts or in regard to whom? + +ALCIBIADES: I should call such a state bad, Socrates. + +SOCRATES: You certainly would when you saw each of them rivalling the +other and esteeming that of the greatest importance in the state, + +'Wherein he himself most excelled.' (Euripides, Antiope.) + +--I mean that which was best in any art, while he was entirely ignorant of +what was best for himself and for the state, because, as I think, he trusts +to opinion which is devoid of intelligence. In such a case should we not +be right if we said that the state would be full of anarchy and +lawlessness? + +ALCIBIADES: Decidedly. + +SOCRATES: But ought we not then, think you, either to fancy that we know +or really to know, what we confidently propose to do or say? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And if a person does that which he knows or supposes that he +knows, and the result is beneficial, he will act advantageously both for +himself and for the state? + +ALCIBIADES: True. + +SOCRATES: And if he do the contrary, both he and the state will suffer? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: Well, and are you of the same mind, as before? + +ALCIBIADES: I am. + +SOCRATES: But were you not saying that you would call the many unwise and +the few wise? + +ALCIBIADES: I was. + +SOCRATES: And have we not come back to our old assertion that the many +fail to obtain the best because they trust to opinion which is devoid of +intelligence? + +ALCIBIADES: That is the case. + +SOCRATES: It is good, then, for the many, if they particularly desire to +do that which they know or suppose that they know, neither to know nor to +suppose that they know, in cases where if they carry out their ideas in +action they will be losers rather than gainers? + +ALCIBIADES: What you say is very true. + +SOCRATES: Do you not see that I was really speaking the truth when I +affirmed that the possession of any other kind of knowledge was more likely +to injure than to benefit the possessor, unless he had also the knowledge +of the best? + +ALCIBIADES: I do now, if I did not before, Socrates. + +SOCRATES: The state or the soul, therefore, which wishes to have a right +existence must hold firmly to this knowledge, just as the sick man clings +to the physician, or the passenger depends for safety on the pilot. And if +the soul does not set sail until she have obtained this she will be all the +safer in the voyage through life. But when she rushes in pursuit of wealth +or bodily strength or anything else, not having the knowledge of the best, +so much the more is she likely to meet with misfortune. And he who has the +love of learning (Or, reading polumatheian, 'abundant learning.'), and is +skilful in many arts, and does not possess the knowledge of the best, but +is under some other guidance, will make, as he deserves, a sorry voyage:-- +he will, I believe, hurry through the brief space of human life, pilotless +in mid-ocean, and the words will apply to him in which the poet blamed his +enemy:-- + +'...Full many a thing he knew; +But knew them all badly.' (A fragment from the pseudo-Homeric poem, +'Margites.') + +ALCIBIADES: How in the world, Socrates, do the words of the poet apply to +him? They seem to me to have no bearing on the point whatever. + +SOCRATES: Quite the contrary, my sweet friend: only the poet is talking +in riddles after the fashion of his tribe. For all poetry has by nature an +enigmatical character, and it is by no means everybody who can interpret +it. And if, moreover, the spirit of poetry happen to seize on a man who is +of a begrudging temper and does not care to manifest his wisdom but keeps +it to himself as far as he can, it does indeed require an almost superhuman +wisdom to discover what the poet would be at. You surely do not suppose +that Homer, the wisest and most divine of poets, was unaware of the +impossibility of knowing a thing badly: for it was no less a person than +he who said of Margites that 'he knew many things, but knew them all +badly.' The solution of the riddle is this, I imagine:--By 'badly' Homer +meant 'bad' and 'knew' stands for 'to know.' Put the words together;--the +metre will suffer, but the poet's meaning is clear;--'Margites knew all +these things, but it was bad for him to know them.' And, obviously, if it +was bad for him to know so many things, he must have been a good-for- +nothing, unless the argument has played us false. + +ALCIBIADES: But I do not think that it has, Socrates: at least, if the +argument is fallacious, it would be difficult for me to find another which +I could trust. + +SOCRATES: And you are right in thinking so. + +ALCIBIADES: Well, that is my opinion. + +SOCRATES: But tell me, by Heaven:--you must see now the nature and +greatness of the difficulty in which you, like others, have your part. For +you change about in all directions, and never come to rest anywhere: what +you once most strongly inclined to suppose, you put aside again and quite +alter your mind. If the God to whose shrine you are going should appear at +this moment, and ask before you made your prayer, 'Whether you would desire +to have one of the things which we mentioned at first, or whether he should +leave you to make your own request:'--what in either case, think you, would +be the best way to take advantage of the opportunity? + +ALCIBIADES: Indeed, Socrates, I could not answer you without +consideration. It seems to me to be a wild thing (The Homeric word margos +is said to be here employed in allusion to the quotation from the +'Margites' which Socrates has just made; but it is not used in the sense +which it has in Homer.) to make such a request; a man must be very careful +lest he pray for evil under the idea that he is asking for good, when +shortly after he may have to recall his prayer, and, as you were saying, +demand the opposite of what he at first requested. + +SOCRATES: And was not the poet whose words I originally quoted wiser than +we are, when he bade us (pray God) to defend us from evil even though we +asked for it? + +ALCIBIADES: I believe that you are right. + +SOCRATES: The Lacedaemonians, too, whether from admiration of the poet or +because they have discovered the idea for themselves, are wont to offer the +prayer alike in public and private, that the Gods will give unto them the +beautiful as well as the good:--no one is likely to hear them make any +further petition. And yet up to the present time they have not been less +fortunate than other men; or if they have sometimes met with misfortune, +the fault has not been due to their prayer. For surely, as I conceive, the +Gods have power either to grant our requests, or to send us the contrary of +what we ask. + +And now I will relate to you a story which I have heard from certain of our +elders. It chanced that when the Athenians and Lacedaemonians were at war, +our city lost every battle by land and sea and never gained a victory. The +Athenians being annoyed and perplexed how to find a remedy for their +troubles, decided to send and enquire at the shrine of Ammon. Their envoys +were also to ask, 'Why the Gods always granted the victory to the +Lacedaemonians?' 'We,' (they were to say,) 'offer them more and finer +sacrifices than any other Hellenic state, and adorn their temples with +gifts, as nobody else does; moreover, we make the most solemn and costly +processions to them every year, and spend more money in their service than +all the rest of the Hellenes put together. But the Lacedaemonians take no +thought of such matters, and pay so little respect to the Gods that they +have a habit of sacrificing blemished animals to them, and in various ways +are less zealous than we are, although their wealth is quite equal to +ours.' When they had thus spoken, and had made their request to know what +remedy they could find against the evils which troubled them, the prophet +made no direct answer,--clearly because he was not allowed by the God to do +so;--but he summoned them to him and said: 'Thus saith Ammon to the +Athenians: "The silent worship of the Lacedaemonians pleaseth me better +than all the offerings of the other Hellenes."' Such were the words of the +God, and nothing more. He seems to have meant by 'silent worship' the +prayer of the Lacedaemonians, which is indeed widely different from the +usual requests of the Hellenes. For they either bring to the altar bulls +with gilded horns or make offerings to the Gods, and beg at random for what +they need, good or bad. When, therefore, the Gods hear them using words of +ill omen they reject these costly processions and sacrifices of theirs. +And we ought, I think, to be very careful and consider well what we should +say and what leave unsaid. Homer, too, will furnish us with similar +stories. For he tells us how the Trojans in making their encampment, + +'Offered up whole hecatombs to the immortals,' + +and how the 'sweet savour' was borne 'to the heavens by the winds; + +'But the blessed Gods were averse and received it not. +For exceedingly did they hate the holy Ilium, +Both Priam and the people of the spear-skilled king.' + +So that it was in vain for them to sacrifice and offer gifts, seeing that +they were hateful to the Gods, who are not, like vile usurers, to be gained +over by bribes. And it is foolish for us to boast that we are superior to +the Lacedaemonians by reason of our much worship. The idea is +inconceivable that the Gods have regard, not to the justice and purity of +our souls, but to costly processions and sacrifices, which men may +celebrate year after year, although they have committed innumerable crimes +against the Gods or against their fellow-men or the state. For the Gods, +as Ammon and his prophet declare, are no receivers of gifts, and they scorn +such unworthy service. Wherefore also it would seem that wisdom and +justice are especially honoured both by the Gods and by men of sense; and +they are the wisest and most just who know how to speak and act towards +Gods and men. But I should like to hear what your opinion is about these +matters. + +ALCIBIADES: I agree, Socrates, with you and with the God, whom, indeed, it +would be unbecoming for me to oppose. + +SOCRATES: Do you not remember saying that you were in great perplexity, +lest perchance you should ask for evil, supposing that you were asking for +good? + +ALCIBIADES: I do. + +SOCRATES: You see, then, that there is a risk in your approaching the God +in prayer, lest haply he should refuse your sacrifice when he hears the +blasphemy which you utter, and make you partake of other evils as well. +The wisest plan, therefore, seems to me that you should keep silence; for +your 'highmindedness'--to use the mildest term which men apply to folly-- +will most likely prevent you from using the prayer of the Lacedaemonians. +You had better wait until we find out how we should behave towards the Gods +and towards men. + +ALCIBIADES: And how long must I wait, Socrates, and who will be my +teacher? I should be very glad to see the man. + +SOCRATES: It is he who takes an especial interest in you. But first of +all, I think, the darkness must be taken away in which your soul is now +enveloped, just as Athene in Homer removes the mist from the eyes of +Diomede that + +'He may distinguish between God and mortal man.' + +Afterwards the means may be given to you whereby you may distinguish +between good and evil. At present, I fear, this is beyond your power. + +ALCIBIADES: Only let my instructor take away the impediment, whether it +pleases him to call it mist or anything else! I care not who he is; but I +am resolved to disobey none of his commands, if I am likely to be the +better for them. + +SOCRATES: And surely he has a wondrous care for you. + +ALCIBIADES: It seems to be altogether advisable to put off the sacrifice +until he is found. + +SOCRATES: You are right: that will be safer than running such a +tremendous risk. + +ALCIBIADES: But how shall we manage, Socrates?--At any rate I will set +this crown of mine upon your head, as you have given me such excellent +advice, and to the Gods we will offer crowns and perform the other +customary rites when I see that day approaching: nor will it be long +hence, if they so will. + +SOCRATES: I accept your gift, and shall be ready and willing to receive +whatever else you may proffer. Euripides makes Creon say in the play, when +he beholds Teiresias with his crown and hears that he has gained it by his +skill as the first-fruits of the spoil:-- + +'An auspicious omen I deem thy victor's wreath: +For well thou knowest that wave and storm oppress us.' + +And so I count your gift to be a token of good-fortune; for I am in no less +stress than Creon, and would fain carry off the victory over your lovers. + + + + + +End of this Project Gutenberg Etext of Alcibiades II by Platonic Imitator + diff --git a/old/2lcbd10.zip b/old/2lcbd10.zip Binary files differnew file mode 100644 index 0000000..8e09142 --- /dev/null +++ b/old/2lcbd10.zip |