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+The Project Gutenberg EBook of Alcibiades II, by An Imitator of Plato
+
+This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with
+almost no restrictions whatsoever.  You may copy it, give it away or
+re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included
+with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org
+
+
+Title: Alcibiades II
+
+Author: An Imitator of Plato
+
+Translator: Benjamin Jowett
+
+Posting Date: September 21, 2008 [EBook #1677]
+Release Date: March, 1999
+
+Language: English
+
+Character set encoding: ASCII
+
+*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK ALCIBIADES II ***
+
+
+
+
+Produced by Sue Asscher
+
+
+
+
+
+ALCIBIADES II
+
+by An Imatator of Plato
+
+(see Appendix II)
+
+Translated by Benjamin Jowett
+
+
+
+
+APPENDIX II.
+
+The two dialogues which are translated in the second appendix are not
+mentioned by Aristotle, or by any early authority, and have no claim
+to be ascribed to Plato. They are examples of Platonic dialogues to be
+assigned probably to the second or third generation after Plato, when
+his writings were well known at Athens and Alexandria. They exhibit
+considerable originality, and are remarkable for containing several
+thoughts of the sort which we suppose to be modern rather than ancient,
+and which therefore have a peculiar interest for us. The Second
+Alcibiades shows that the difficulties about prayer which have perplexed
+Christian theologians were not unknown among the followers of Plato.
+The Eryxias was doubted by the ancients themselves: yet it may claim the
+distinction of being, among all Greek or Roman writings, the one which
+anticipates in the most striking manner the modern science of political
+economy and gives an abstract form to some of its principal doctrines.
+
+For the translation of these two dialogues I am indebted to my friend
+and secretary, Mr. Knight.
+
+That the Dialogue which goes by the name of the Second Alcibiades is a
+genuine writing of Plato will not be maintained by any modern critic,
+and was hardly believed by the ancients themselves. The dialectic is
+poor and weak. There is no power over language, or beauty of style; and
+there is a certain abruptness and agroikia in the conversation, which
+is very un-Platonic. The best passage is probably that about the
+poets:--the remark that the poet, who is of a reserved disposition, is
+uncommonly difficult to understand, and the ridiculous interpretation of
+Homer, are entirely in the spirit of Plato (compare Protag; Ion; Apol.).
+The characters are ill-drawn. Socrates assumes the 'superior person' and
+preaches too much, while Alcibiades is stupid and heavy-in-hand. There
+are traces of Stoic influence in the general tone and phraseology of the
+Dialogue (compare opos melesei tis...kaka: oti pas aphron mainetai):
+and the writer seems to have been acquainted with the 'Laws' of Plato
+(compare Laws). An incident from the Symposium is rather clumsily
+introduced, and two somewhat hackneyed quotations (Symp., Gorg.) recur.
+The reference to the death of Archelaus as having occurred 'quite
+lately' is only a fiction, probably suggested by the Gorgias, where the
+story of Archelaus is told, and a similar phrase occurs;--ta gar echthes
+kai proen gegonota tauta, k.t.l. There are several passages which
+are either corrupt or extremely ill-expressed. But there is a modern
+interest in the subject of the dialogue; and it is a good example of
+a short spurious work, which may be attributed to the second or third
+century before Christ.
+
+
+
+
+ALCIBIADES II
+
+
+PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Socrates and Alcibiades.
+
+
+
+SOCRATES: Are you going, Alcibiades, to offer prayer to Zeus?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Yes, Socrates, I am.
+
+SOCRATES: you seem to be troubled and to cast your eyes on the ground,
+as though you were thinking about something.
+
+ALCIBIADES: Of what do you suppose that I am thinking?
+
+SOCRATES: Of the greatest of all things, as I believe. Tell me, do you
+not suppose that the Gods sometimes partly grant and partly reject the
+requests which we make in public and private, and favour some persons
+and not others?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Certainly.
+
+SOCRATES: Do you not imagine, then, that a man ought to be very careful,
+lest perchance without knowing it he implore great evils for himself,
+deeming that he is asking for good, especially if the Gods are in the
+mood to grant whatever he may request? There is the story of Oedipus,
+for instance, who prayed that his children might divide their
+inheritance between them by the sword: he did not, as he might have
+done, beg that his present evils might be averted, but called down new
+ones. And was not his prayer accomplished, and did not many and terrible
+evils thence arise, upon which I need not dilate?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Yes, Socrates, but you are speaking of a madman: surely you
+do not think that any one in his senses would venture to make such a
+prayer?
+
+SOCRATES: Madness, then, you consider to be the opposite of discretion?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Of course.
+
+SOCRATES: And some men seem to you to be discreet, and others the
+contrary?
+
+ALCIBIADES: They do.
+
+SOCRATES: Well, then, let us discuss who these are. We acknowledge that
+some are discreet, some foolish, and that some are mad?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Yes.
+
+SOCRATES: And again, there are some who are in health?
+
+ALCIBIADES: There are.
+
+SOCRATES: While others are ailing?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Yes.
+
+SOCRATES: And they are not the same?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Certainly not.
+
+SOCRATES: Nor are there any who are in neither state?
+
+ALCIBIADES: No.
+
+SOCRATES: A man must either be sick or be well?
+
+ALCIBIADES: That is my opinion.
+
+SOCRATES: Very good: and do you think the same about discretion and want
+of discretion?
+
+ALCIBIADES: How do you mean?
+
+SOCRATES: Do you believe that a man must be either in or out of his
+senses; or is there some third or intermediate condition, in which he is
+neither one nor the other?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Decidedly not.
+
+SOCRATES: He must be either sane or insane?
+
+ALCIBIADES: So I suppose.
+
+SOCRATES: Did you not acknowledge that madness was the opposite of
+discretion?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Yes.
+
+SOCRATES: And that there is no third or middle term between discretion
+and indiscretion?
+
+ALCIBIADES: True.
+
+SOCRATES: And there cannot be two opposites to one thing?
+
+ALCIBIADES: There cannot.
+
+SOCRATES: Then madness and want of sense are the same?
+
+ALCIBIADES: That appears to be the case.
+
+SOCRATES: We shall be in the right, therefore, Alcibiades, if we say
+that all who are senseless are mad. For example, if among persons
+of your own age or older than yourself there are some who are
+senseless,--as there certainly are,--they are mad. For tell me, by
+heaven, do you not think that in the city the wise are few, while the
+foolish, whom you call mad, are many?
+
+ALCIBIADES: I do.
+
+SOCRATES: But how could we live in safety with so many crazy people?
+Should we not long since have paid the penalty at their hands, and have
+been struck and beaten and endured every other form of ill-usage which
+madmen are wont to inflict? Consider, my dear friend: may it not be
+quite otherwise?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Why, Socrates, how is that possible? I must have been
+mistaken.
+
+SOCRATES: So it seems to me. But perhaps we may consider the matter
+thus:--
+
+ALCIBIADES: How?
+
+SOCRATES: I will tell you. We think that some are sick; do we not?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Yes.
+
+SOCRATES: And must every sick person either have the gout, or be in
+a fever, or suffer from ophthalmia? Or do you believe that a man may
+labour under some other disease, even although he has none of these
+complaints? Surely, they are not the only maladies which exist?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Certainly not.
+
+SOCRATES: And is every kind of ophthalmia a disease?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Yes.
+
+SOCRATES: And every disease ophthalmia?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Surely not. But I scarcely understand what I mean myself.
+
+SOCRATES: Perhaps, if you give me your best attention, 'two of us'
+looking together, we may find what we seek.
+
+ALCIBIADES: I am attending, Socrates, to the best of my power.
+
+SOCRATES: We are agreed, then, that every form of ophthalmia is a
+disease, but not every disease ophthalmia?
+
+ALCIBIADES: We are.
+
+SOCRATES: And so far we seem to be right. For every one who suffers from
+a fever is sick; but the sick, I conceive, do not all have fever or gout
+or ophthalmia, although each of these is a disease, which, according to
+those whom we call physicians, may require a different treatment. They
+are not all alike, nor do they produce the same result, but each has
+its own effect, and yet they are all diseases. May we not take an
+illustration from the artizans?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Certainly.
+
+SOCRATES: There are cobblers and carpenters and sculptors and others of
+all sorts and kinds, whom we need not stop to enumerate. All have their
+distinct employments and all are workmen, although they are not all of
+them cobblers or carpenters or sculptors.
+
+ALCIBIADES: No, indeed.
+
+SOCRATES: And in like manner men differ in regard to want of sense.
+Those who are most out of their wits we call 'madmen,' while we term
+those who are less far gone 'stupid' or 'idiotic,' or, if we prefer
+gentler language, describe them as 'romantic' or 'simple-minded,' or,
+again, as 'innocent' or 'inexperienced' or 'foolish.' You may even find
+other names, if you seek for them; but by all of them lack of sense
+is intended. They only differ as one art appeared to us to differ from
+another or one disease from another. Or what is your opinion?
+
+ALCIBIADES: I agree with you.
+
+SOCRATES: Then let us return to the point at which we digressed. We said
+at first that we should have to consider who were the wise and who the
+foolish. For we acknowledged that there are these two classes? Did we
+not?
+
+ALCIBIADES: To be sure.
+
+SOCRATES: And you regard those as sensible who know what ought to be
+done or said?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Yes.
+
+SOCRATES: The senseless are those who do not know this?
+
+ALCIBIADES: True.
+
+SOCRATES: The latter will say or do what they ought not without their
+own knowledge?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Exactly.
+
+SOCRATES: Oedipus, as I was saying, Alcibiades, was a person of
+this sort. And even now-a-days you will find many who (have offered
+inauspicious prayers), although, unlike him, they were not in anger nor
+thought that they were asking evil. He neither sought, nor supposed that
+he sought for good, but others have had quite the contrary notion. I
+believe that if the God whom you are about to consult should appear to
+you, and, in anticipation of your request, enquired whether you would be
+contented to become tyrant of Athens, and if this seemed in your eyes a
+small and mean thing, should add to it the dominion of all Hellas; and
+seeing that even then you would not be satisfied unless you were ruler
+of the whole of Europe, should promise, not only that, but, if you so
+desired, should proclaim to all mankind in one and the same day that
+Alcibiades, son of Cleinias, was tyrant:--in such a case, I imagine, you
+would depart full of joy, as one who had obtained the greatest of goods.
+
+ALCIBIADES: And not only I, Socrates, but any one else who should meet
+with such luck.
+
+SOCRATES: Yet you would not accept the dominion and lordship of all the
+Hellenes and all the barbarians in exchange for your life?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Certainly not: for then what use could I make of them?
+
+SOCRATES: And would you accept them if you were likely to use them to a
+bad and mischievous end?
+
+ALCIBIADES: I would not.
+
+SOCRATES: You see that it is not safe for a man either rashly to accept
+whatever is offered him, or himself to request a thing, if he is likely
+to suffer thereby or immediately to lose his life. And yet we could tell
+of many who, having long desired and diligently laboured to obtain
+a tyranny, thinking that thus they would procure an advantage, have
+nevertheless fallen victims to designing enemies. You must have heard of
+what happened only the other day, how Archelaus of Macedonia was slain
+by his beloved (compare Aristotle, Pol.), whose love for the tyranny was
+not less than that of Archelaus for him. The tyrannicide expected by his
+crime to become tyrant and afterwards to have a happy life; but when he
+had held the tyranny three or four days, he was in his turn conspired
+against and slain. Or look at certain of our own citizens,--and of their
+actions we have been not hearers, but eyewitnesses,--who have desired to
+obtain military command: of those who have gained their object, some
+are even to this day exiles from the city, while others have lost their
+lives. And even they who seem to have fared best, have not only gone
+through many perils and terrors during their office, but after their
+return home they have been beset by informers worse than they once were
+by their foes, insomuch that several of them have wished that they
+had remained in a private station rather than have had the glories
+of command. If, indeed, such perils and terrors were of profit to the
+commonwealth, there would be reason in undergoing them; but the very
+contrary is the case. Again, you will find persons who have prayed
+for offspring, and when their prayers were heard, have fallen into the
+greatest pains and sufferings. For some have begotten children who were
+utterly bad, and have therefore passed all their days in misery, while
+the parents of good children have undergone the misfortune of losing
+them, and have been so little happier than the others that they would
+have preferred never to have had children rather than to have had
+them and lost them. And yet, although these and the like examples are
+manifest and known of all, it is rare to find any one who has refused
+what has been offered him, or, if he were likely to gain aught by
+prayer, has refrained from making his petition. The mass of mankind
+would not decline to accept a tyranny, or the command of an army, or any
+of the numerous things which cause more harm than good: but rather,
+if they had them not, would have prayed to obtain them. And often in a
+short space of time they change their tone, and wish their old prayers
+unsaid. Wherefore also I suspect that men are entirely wrong when they
+blame the gods as the authors of the ills which befall them (compare
+Republic): 'their own presumption,' or folly (whichever is the right
+word)--
+
+'Has brought these unmeasured woes upon them.' (Homer. Odyss.)
+
+He must have been a wise poet, Alcibiades, who, seeing as I believe, his
+friends foolishly praying for and doing things which would not really
+profit them, offered up a common prayer in behalf of them all:--
+
+'King Zeus, grant us good whether prayed for or unsought by us; But that
+which we ask amiss, do thou avert.' (The author of these lines, which
+are probably of Pythagorean origin, is unknown. They are found also in
+the Anthology (Anth. Pal.).)
+
+In my opinion, I say, the poet spoke both well and prudently; but if you
+have anything to say in answer to him, speak out.
+
+ALCIBIADES: It is difficult, Socrates, to oppose what has been well
+said. And I perceive how many are the ills of which ignorance is the
+cause, since, as would appear, through ignorance we not only do, but
+what is worse, pray for the greatest evils. No man would imagine that
+he would do so; he would rather suppose that he was quite capable of
+praying for what was best: to call down evils seems more like a curse
+than a prayer.
+
+SOCRATES: But perhaps, my good friend, some one who is wiser than either
+you or I will say that we have no right to blame ignorance thus rashly,
+unless we can add what ignorance we mean and of what, and also to whom
+and how it is respectively a good or an evil?
+
+ALCIBIADES: How do you mean? Can ignorance possibly be better than
+knowledge for any person in any conceivable case?
+
+SOCRATES: So I believe:--you do not think so?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Certainly not.
+
+SOCRATES: And yet surely I may not suppose that you would ever wish to
+act towards your mother as they say that Orestes and Alcmeon and others
+have done towards their parent.
+
+ALCIBIADES: Good words, Socrates, prithee.
+
+SOCRATES: You ought not to bid him use auspicious words, who says that
+you would not be willing to commit so horrible a deed, but rather him
+who affirms the contrary, if the act appear to you unfit even to be
+mentioned. Or do you think that Orestes, had he been in his senses and
+knew what was best for him to do, would ever have dared to venture on
+such a crime?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Certainly not.
+
+SOCRATES: Nor would any one else, I fancy?
+
+ALCIBIADES: No.
+
+SOCRATES: That ignorance is bad then, it would appear, which is of the
+best and does not know what is best?
+
+ALCIBIADES: So I think, at least.
+
+SOCRATES: And both to the person who is ignorant and everybody else?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Yes.
+
+SOCRATES: Let us take another case. Suppose that you were suddenly to
+get into your head that it would be a good thing to kill Pericles, your
+kinsman and guardian, and were to seize a sword and, going to the doors
+of his house, were to enquire if he were at home, meaning to slay only
+him and no one else:--the servants reply, 'Yes': (Mind, I do not mean
+that you would really do such a thing; but there is nothing, you think,
+to prevent a man who is ignorant of the best, having occasionally the
+whim that what is worst is best?
+
+ALCIBIADES: No.)
+
+SOCRATES:--If, then, you went indoors, and seeing him, did not know him,
+but thought that he was some one else, would you venture to slay him?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Most decidedly not (it seems to me). (These words are
+omitted in several MSS.)
+
+SOCRATES: For you designed to kill, not the first who offered, but
+Pericles himself?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Certainly.
+
+SOCRATES: And if you made many attempts, and each time failed to
+recognize Pericles, you would never attack him?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Never.
+
+SOCRATES: Well, but if Orestes in like manner had not known his mother,
+do you think that he would ever have laid hands upon her?
+
+ALCIBIADES: No.
+
+SOCRATES: He did not intend to slay the first woman he came across, nor
+any one else's mother, but only his own?
+
+ALCIBIADES: True.
+
+SOCRATES: Ignorance, then, is better for those who are in such a frame
+of mind, and have such ideas?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Obviously.
+
+SOCRATES: You acknowledge that for some persons in certain cases the
+ignorance of some things is a good and not an evil, as you formerly
+supposed?
+
+ALCIBIADES: I do.
+
+SOCRATES: And there is still another case which will also perhaps
+appear strange to you, if you will consider it? (The reading is here
+uncertain.)
+
+ALCIBIADES: What is that, Socrates?
+
+SOCRATES: It may be, in short, that the possession of all the sciences,
+if unaccompanied by the knowledge of the best, will more often than not
+injure the possessor. Consider the matter thus:--Must we not, when we
+intend either to do or say anything, suppose that we know or ought to
+know that which we propose so confidently to do or say?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Yes, in my opinion.
+
+SOCRATES: We may take the orators for an example, who from time to
+time advise us about war and peace, or the building of walls and the
+construction of harbours, whether they understand the business in
+hand, or only think that they do. Whatever the city, in a word, does to
+another city, or in the management of her own affairs, all happens by
+the counsel of the orators.
+
+ALCIBIADES: True.
+
+SOCRATES: But now see what follows, if I can (make it clear to you).
+(Some words appear to have dropped out here.) You would distinguish the
+wise from the foolish?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Yes.
+
+SOCRATES: The many are foolish, the few wise?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Certainly.
+
+SOCRATES: And you use both the terms, 'wise' and 'foolish,' in reference
+to something?
+
+ALCIBIADES: I do.
+
+SOCRATES: Would you call a person wise who can give advice, but does not
+know whether or when it is better to carry out the advice?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Decidedly not.
+
+SOCRATES: Nor again, I suppose, a person who knows the art of war, but
+does not know whether it is better to go to war or for how long?
+
+ALCIBIADES: No.
+
+SOCRATES: Nor, once more, a person who knows how to kill another or to
+take away his property or to drive him from his native land, but not
+when it is better to do so or for whom it is better?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Certainly not.
+
+SOCRATES: But he who understands anything of the kind and has at the
+same time the knowledge of the best course of action:--and the best and
+the useful are surely the same?--
+
+ALCIBIADES: Yes.
+
+SOCRATES:--Such an one, I say, we should call wise and a useful adviser
+both of himself and of the city. What do you think?
+
+ALCIBIADES: I agree.
+
+SOCRATES: And if any one knows how to ride or to shoot with the bow or
+to box or to wrestle, or to engage in any other sort of contest or to
+do anything whatever which is in the nature of an art,--what do you call
+him who knows what is best according to that art? Do you not speak of
+one who knows what is best in riding as a good rider?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Yes.
+
+SOCRATES: And in a similar way you speak of a good boxer or a good
+flute-player or a good performer in any other art?
+
+ALCIBIADES: True.
+
+SOCRATES: But is it necessary that the man who is clever in any of these
+arts should be wise also in general? Or is there a difference between
+the clever artist and the wise man?
+
+ALCIBIADES: All the difference in the world.
+
+SOCRATES: And what sort of a state do you think that would be which was
+composed of good archers and flute-players and athletes and masters in
+other arts, and besides them of those others about whom we spoke, who
+knew how to go to war and how to kill, as well as of orators puffed
+up with political pride, but in which not one of them all had this
+knowledge of the best, and there was no one who could tell when it was
+better to apply any of these arts or in regard to whom?
+
+ALCIBIADES: I should call such a state bad, Socrates.
+
+SOCRATES: You certainly would when you saw each of them rivalling the
+other and esteeming that of the greatest importance in the state,
+
+'Wherein he himself most excelled.' (Euripides, Antiope.) --I mean that
+which was best in any art, while he was entirely ignorant of what was
+best for himself and for the state, because, as I think, he trusts to
+opinion which is devoid of intelligence. In such a case should we not
+be right if we said that the state would be full of anarchy and
+lawlessness?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Decidedly.
+
+SOCRATES: But ought we not then, think you, either to fancy that we know
+or really to know, what we confidently propose to do or say?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Yes.
+
+SOCRATES: And if a person does that which he knows or supposes that he
+knows, and the result is beneficial, he will act advantageously both for
+himself and for the state?
+
+ALCIBIADES: True.
+
+SOCRATES: And if he do the contrary, both he and the state will suffer?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Yes.
+
+SOCRATES: Well, and are you of the same mind, as before?
+
+ALCIBIADES: I am.
+
+SOCRATES: But were you not saying that you would call the many unwise
+and the few wise?
+
+ALCIBIADES: I was.
+
+SOCRATES: And have we not come back to our old assertion that the many
+fail to obtain the best because they trust to opinion which is devoid of
+intelligence?
+
+ALCIBIADES: That is the case.
+
+SOCRATES: It is good, then, for the many, if they particularly desire to
+do that which they know or suppose that they know, neither to know nor
+to suppose that they know, in cases where if they carry out their ideas
+in action they will be losers rather than gainers?
+
+ALCIBIADES: What you say is very true.
+
+SOCRATES: Do you not see that I was really speaking the truth when I
+affirmed that the possession of any other kind of knowledge was more
+likely to injure than to benefit the possessor, unless he had also the
+knowledge of the best?
+
+ALCIBIADES: I do now, if I did not before, Socrates.
+
+SOCRATES: The state or the soul, therefore, which wishes to have a
+right existence must hold firmly to this knowledge, just as the sick
+man clings to the physician, or the passenger depends for safety on the
+pilot. And if the soul does not set sail until she have obtained this
+she will be all the safer in the voyage through life. But when she
+rushes in pursuit of wealth or bodily strength or anything else, not
+having the knowledge of the best, so much the more is she likely to
+meet with misfortune. And he who has the love of learning (Or, reading
+polumatheian, 'abundant learning.'), and is skilful in many arts, and
+does not possess the knowledge of the best, but is under some other
+guidance, will make, as he deserves, a sorry voyage:--he will, I
+believe, hurry through the brief space of human life, pilotless in
+mid-ocean, and the words will apply to him in which the poet blamed his
+enemy:--
+
+'...Full many a thing he knew; But knew them all badly.' (A fragment
+from the pseudo-Homeric poem, 'Margites.')
+
+ALCIBIADES: How in the world, Socrates, do the words of the poet apply
+to him? They seem to me to have no bearing on the point whatever.
+
+SOCRATES: Quite the contrary, my sweet friend: only the poet is talking
+in riddles after the fashion of his tribe. For all poetry has by nature
+an enigmatical character, and it is by no means everybody who can
+interpret it. And if, moreover, the spirit of poetry happen to seize on
+a man who is of a begrudging temper and does not care to manifest his
+wisdom but keeps it to himself as far as he can, it does indeed require
+an almost superhuman wisdom to discover what the poet would be at. You
+surely do not suppose that Homer, the wisest and most divine of poets,
+was unaware of the impossibility of knowing a thing badly: for it was
+no less a person than he who said of Margites that 'he knew many
+things, but knew them all badly.' The solution of the riddle is this, I
+imagine:--By 'badly' Homer meant 'bad' and 'knew' stands for 'to know.'
+Put the words together;--the metre will suffer, but the poet's meaning
+is clear;--'Margites knew all these things, but it was bad for him
+to know them.' And, obviously, if it was bad for him to know so many
+things, he must have been a good-for-nothing, unless the argument has
+played us false.
+
+ALCIBIADES: But I do not think that it has, Socrates: at least, if the
+argument is fallacious, it would be difficult for me to find another
+which I could trust.
+
+SOCRATES: And you are right in thinking so.
+
+ALCIBIADES: Well, that is my opinion.
+
+SOCRATES: But tell me, by Heaven:--you must see now the nature and
+greatness of the difficulty in which you, like others, have your part.
+For you change about in all directions, and never come to rest anywhere:
+what you once most strongly inclined to suppose, you put aside again and
+quite alter your mind. If the God to whose shrine you are going should
+appear at this moment, and ask before you made your prayer, 'Whether you
+would desire to have one of the things which we mentioned at first, or
+whether he should leave you to make your own request:'--what in
+either case, think you, would be the best way to take advantage of the
+opportunity?
+
+ALCIBIADES: Indeed, Socrates, I could not answer you without
+consideration. It seems to me to be a wild thing (The Homeric word
+margos is said to be here employed in allusion to the quotation from the
+'Margites' which Socrates has just made; but it is not used in the
+sense which it has in Homer.) to make such a request; a man must be very
+careful lest he pray for evil under the idea that he is asking for good,
+when shortly after he may have to recall his prayer, and, as you were
+saying, demand the opposite of what he at first requested.
+
+SOCRATES: And was not the poet whose words I originally quoted wiser
+than we are, when he bade us (pray God) to defend us from evil even
+though we asked for it?
+
+ALCIBIADES: I believe that you are right.
+
+SOCRATES: The Lacedaemonians, too, whether from admiration of the poet
+or because they have discovered the idea for themselves, are wont to
+offer the prayer alike in public and private, that the Gods will give
+unto them the beautiful as well as the good:--no one is likely to hear
+them make any further petition. And yet up to the present time they have
+not been less fortunate than other men; or if they have sometimes met
+with misfortune, the fault has not been due to their prayer. For surely,
+as I conceive, the Gods have power either to grant our requests, or to
+send us the contrary of what we ask.
+
+And now I will relate to you a story which I have heard from certain of
+our elders. It chanced that when the Athenians and Lacedaemonians were
+at war, our city lost every battle by land and sea and never gained a
+victory. The Athenians being annoyed and perplexed how to find a remedy
+for their troubles, decided to send and enquire at the shrine of Ammon.
+Their envoys were also to ask, 'Why the Gods always granted the victory
+to the Lacedaemonians?' 'We,' (they were to say,) 'offer them more and
+finer sacrifices than any other Hellenic state, and adorn their temples
+with gifts, as nobody else does; moreover, we make the most solemn and
+costly processions to them every year, and spend more money in their
+service than all the rest of the Hellenes put together. But the
+Lacedaemonians take no thought of such matters, and pay so little
+respect to the Gods that they have a habit of sacrificing blemished
+animals to them, and in various ways are less zealous than we are,
+although their wealth is quite equal to ours.' When they had thus
+spoken, and had made their request to know what remedy they could
+find against the evils which troubled them, the prophet made no direct
+answer,--clearly because he was not allowed by the God to do so;--but he
+summoned them to him and said: 'Thus saith Ammon to the Athenians: "The
+silent worship of the Lacedaemonians pleaseth me better than all the
+offerings of the other Hellenes."' Such were the words of the God, and
+nothing more. He seems to have meant by 'silent worship' the prayer
+of the Lacedaemonians, which is indeed widely different from the usual
+requests of the Hellenes. For they either bring to the altar bulls with
+gilded horns or make offerings to the Gods, and beg at random for what
+they need, good or bad. When, therefore, the Gods hear them using words
+of ill omen they reject these costly processions and sacrifices of
+theirs. And we ought, I think, to be very careful and consider well what
+we should say and what leave unsaid. Homer, too, will furnish us
+with similar stories. For he tells us how the Trojans in making their
+encampment,
+
+'Offered up whole hecatombs to the immortals,'
+
+and how the 'sweet savour' was borne 'to the heavens by the winds;
+
+     'But the blessed Gods were averse and received it not.
+     For exceedingly did they hate the holy Ilium,
+     Both Priam and the people of the spear-skilled king.'
+
+So that it was in vain for them to sacrifice and offer gifts, seeing
+that they were hateful to the Gods, who are not, like vile usurers, to
+be gained over by bribes. And it is foolish for us to boast that we are
+superior to the Lacedaemonians by reason of our much worship. The idea
+is inconceivable that the Gods have regard, not to the justice and
+purity of our souls, but to costly processions and sacrifices, which men
+may celebrate year after year, although they have committed innumerable
+crimes against the Gods or against their fellow-men or the state. For
+the Gods, as Ammon and his prophet declare, are no receivers of gifts,
+and they scorn such unworthy service. Wherefore also it would seem that
+wisdom and justice are especially honoured both by the Gods and by men
+of sense; and they are the wisest and most just who know how to speak
+and act towards Gods and men. But I should like to hear what your
+opinion is about these matters.
+
+ALCIBIADES: I agree, Socrates, with you and with the God, whom, indeed,
+it would be unbecoming for me to oppose.
+
+SOCRATES: Do you not remember saying that you were in great perplexity,
+lest perchance you should ask for evil, supposing that you were asking
+for good?
+
+ALCIBIADES: I do.
+
+SOCRATES: You see, then, that there is a risk in your approaching the
+God in prayer, lest haply he should refuse your sacrifice when he hears
+the blasphemy which you utter, and make you partake of other evils
+as well. The wisest plan, therefore, seems to me that you should keep
+silence; for your 'highmindedness'--to use the mildest term which men
+apply to folly--will most likely prevent you from using the prayer of
+the Lacedaemonians. You had better wait until we find out how we should
+behave towards the Gods and towards men.
+
+ALCIBIADES: And how long must I wait, Socrates, and who will be my
+teacher? I should be very glad to see the man.
+
+SOCRATES: It is he who takes an especial interest in you. But first of
+all, I think, the darkness must be taken away in which your soul is now
+enveloped, just as Athene in Homer removes the mist from the eyes of
+Diomede that
+
+'He may distinguish between God and mortal man.'
+
+Afterwards the means may be given to you whereby you may distinguish
+between good and evil. At present, I fear, this is beyond your power.
+
+ALCIBIADES: Only let my instructor take away the impediment, whether it
+pleases him to call it mist or anything else! I care not who he is; but
+I am resolved to disobey none of his commands, if I am likely to be the
+better for them.
+
+SOCRATES: And surely he has a wondrous care for you.
+
+ALCIBIADES: It seems to be altogether advisable to put off the sacrifice
+until he is found.
+
+SOCRATES: You are right: that will be safer than running such a
+tremendous risk.
+
+ALCIBIADES: But how shall we manage, Socrates?--At any rate I will set
+this crown of mine upon your head, as you have given me such excellent
+advice, and to the Gods we will offer crowns and perform the other
+customary rites when I see that day approaching: nor will it be long
+hence, if they so will.
+
+SOCRATES: I accept your gift, and shall be ready and willing to receive
+whatever else you may proffer. Euripides makes Creon say in the play,
+when he beholds Teiresias with his crown and hears that he has gained it
+by his skill as the first-fruits of the spoil:--
+
+'An auspicious omen I deem thy victor's wreath: For well thou knowest
+that wave and storm oppress us.'
+
+And so I count your gift to be a token of good-fortune; for I am in no
+less stress than Creon, and would fain carry off the victory over your
+lovers.
+
+
+
+
+
+End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Alcibiades II, by An Imitator of Plato
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