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diff --git a/1673.txt b/1673.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..3e13344 --- /dev/null +++ b/1673.txt @@ -0,0 +1,1560 @@ +The Project Gutenberg EBook of Lesser Hippias, by Plato + +This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with +almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or +re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included +with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org + + +Title: Lesser Hippias + +Author: Plato + +Translator: Benjamin Jowett + +Posting Date: October 15, 2008 [EBook #1673] +Release Date: March, 1999 + +Language: English + +Character set encoding: ASCII + +*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK LESSER HIPPIAS *** + + + + +Produced by Sue Asscher + + + + + +LESSER HIPPIAS + +by Plato + +(see Appendix I) + + +Translated by Benjamin Jowett + + + + +APPENDIX I. + +It seems impossible to separate by any exact line the genuine writings +of Plato from the spurious. The only external evidence to them which is +of much value is that of Aristotle; for the Alexandrian catalogues of +a century later include manifest forgeries. Even the value of the +Aristotelian authority is a good deal impaired by the uncertainty +concerning the date and authorship of the writings which are ascribed to +him. And several of the citations of Aristotle omit the name of Plato, +and some of them omit the name of the dialogue from which they are +taken. Prior, however, to the enquiry about the writings of a particular +author, general considerations which equally affect all evidence to the +genuineness of ancient writings are the following: Shorter works are +more likely to have been forged, or to have received an erroneous +designation, than longer ones; and some kinds of composition, such as +epistles or panegyrical orations, are more liable to suspicion than +others; those, again, which have a taste of sophistry in them, or the +ring of a later age, or the slighter character of a rhetorical exercise, +or in which a motive or some affinity to spurious writings can be +detected, or which seem to have originated in a name or statement really +occurring in some classical author, are also of doubtful credit; while +there is no instance of any ancient writing proved to be a forgery, +which combines excellence with length. A really great and original +writer would have no object in fathering his works on Plato; and to the +forger or imitator, the 'literary hack' of Alexandria and Athens, the +Gods did not grant originality or genius. Further, in attempting to +balance the evidence for and against a Platonic dialogue, we must not +forget that the form of the Platonic writing was common to several of +his contemporaries. Aeschines, Euclid, Phaedo, Antisthenes, and in the +next generation Aristotle, are all said to have composed dialogues; and +mistakes of names are very likely to have occurred. Greek literature in +the third century before Christ was almost as voluminous as our own, and +without the safeguards of regular publication, or printing, or binding, +or even of distinct titles. An unknown writing was naturally attributed +to a known writer whose works bore the same character; and the name once +appended easily obtained authority. A tendency may also be observed to +blend the works and opinions of the master with those of his scholars. +To a later Platonist, the difference between Plato and his imitators was +not so perceptible as to ourselves. The Memorabilia of Xenophon and the +Dialogues of Plato are but a part of a considerable Socratic literature +which has passed away. And we must consider how we should regard the +question of the genuineness of a particular writing, if this lost +literature had been preserved to us. + +These considerations lead us to adopt the following criteria of +genuineness: (1) That is most certainly Plato's which Aristotle +attributes to him by name, which (2) is of considerable length, of (3) +great excellence, and also (4) in harmony with the general spirit of +the Platonic writings. But the testimony of Aristotle cannot always +be distinguished from that of a later age (see above); and has various +degrees of importance. Those writings which he cites without mentioning +Plato, under their own names, e.g. the Hippias, the Funeral Oration, the +Phaedo, etc., have an inferior degree of evidence in their favour. They +may have been supposed by him to be the writings of another, although in +the case of really great works, e.g. the Phaedo, this is not credible; +those again which are quoted but not named, are still more defective +in their external credentials. There may be also a possibility that +Aristotle was mistaken, or may have confused the master and his scholars +in the case of a short writing; but this is inconceivable about a more +important work, e.g. the Laws, especially when we remember that he was +living at Athens, and a frequenter of the groves of the Academy, during +the last twenty years of Plato's life. Nor must we forget that in all +his numerous citations from the Platonic writings he never attributes +any passage found in the extant dialogues to any one but Plato. And +lastly, we may remark that one or two great writings, such as the +Parmenides and the Politicus, which are wholly devoid of Aristotelian +(1) credentials may be fairly attributed to Plato, on the ground of (2) +length, (3) excellence, and (4) accordance with the general spirit +of his writings. Indeed the greater part of the evidence for the +genuineness of ancient Greek authors may be summed up under two heads +only: (1) excellence; and (2) uniformity of tradition--a kind of +evidence, which though in many cases sufficient, is of inferior value. + +Proceeding upon these principles we appear to arrive at the conclusion +that nineteen-twentieths of all the writings which have ever been +ascribed to Plato, are undoubtedly genuine. There is another portion of +them, including the Epistles, the Epinomis, the dialogues rejected by +the ancients themselves, namely, the Axiochus, De justo, De virtute, +Demodocus, Sisyphus, Eryxias, which on grounds, both of internal and +external evidence, we are able with equal certainty to reject. But there +still remains a small portion of which we are unable to affirm either +that they are genuine or spurious. They may have been written in youth, +or possibly like the works of some painters, may be partly or wholly +the compositions of pupils; or they may have been the writings of some +contemporary transferred by accident to the more celebrated name of +Plato, or of some Platonist in the next generation who aspired to +imitate his master. Not that on grounds either of language or philosophy +we should lightly reject them. Some difference of style, or inferiority +of execution, or inconsistency of thought, can hardly be considered +decisive of their spurious character. For who always does justice to +himself, or who writes with equal care at all times? Certainly not +Plato, who exhibits the greatest differences in dramatic power, in the +formation of sentences, and in the use of words, if his earlier writings +are compared with his later ones, say the Protagoras or Phaedrus with +the Laws. Or who can be expected to think in the same manner during +a period of authorship extending over above fifty years, in an age +of great intellectual activity, as well as of political and literary +transition? Certainly not Plato, whose earlier writings are separated +from his later ones by as wide an interval of philosophical speculation +as that which separates his later writings from Aristotle. + +The dialogues which have been translated in the first Appendix, and +which appear to have the next claim to genuineness among the Platonic +writings, are the Lesser Hippias, the Menexenus or Funeral Oration, the +First Alcibiades. Of these, the Lesser Hippias and the Funeral Oration +are cited by Aristotle; the first in the Metaphysics, the latter in the +Rhetoric. Neither of them are expressly attributed to Plato, but in his +citation of both of them he seems to be referring to passages in the +extant dialogues. From the mention of 'Hippias' in the singular by +Aristotle, we may perhaps infer that he was unacquainted with a second +dialogue bearing the same name. Moreover, the mere existence of a +Greater and Lesser Hippias, and of a First and Second Alcibiades, does +to a certain extent throw a doubt upon both of them. Though a very +clever and ingenious work, the Lesser Hippias does not appear to contain +anything beyond the power of an imitator, who was also a careful student +of the earlier Platonic writings, to invent. The motive or leading +thought of the dialogue may be detected in Xen. Mem., and there is +no similar instance of a 'motive' which is taken from Xenophon in an +undoubted dialogue of Plato. On the other hand, the upholders of the +genuineness of the dialogue will find in the Hippias a true Socratic +spirit; they will compare the Ion as being akin both in subject and +treatment; they will urge the authority of Aristotle; and they will +detect in the treatment of the Sophist, in the satirical reasoning +upon Homer, in the reductio ad absurdum of the doctrine that vice is +ignorance, traces of a Platonic authorship. In reference to the last +point we are doubtful, as in some of the other dialogues, whether the +author is asserting or overthrowing the paradox of Socrates, or merely +following the argument 'whither the wind blows.' That no conclusion +is arrived at is also in accordance with the character of the earlier +dialogues. The resemblances or imitations of the Gorgias, Protagoras, +and Euthydemus, which have been observed in the Hippias, cannot with +certainty be adduced on either side of the argument. On the whole, more +may be said in favour of the genuineness of the Hippias than against it. + +The Menexenus or Funeral Oration is cited by Aristotle, and is +interesting as supplying an example of the manner in which the orators +praised 'the Athenians among the Athenians,' falsifying persons and +dates, and casting a veil over the gloomier events of Athenian history. +It exhibits an acquaintance with the funeral oration of Thucydides, and +was, perhaps, intended to rival that great work. If genuine, the +proper place of the Menexenus would be at the end of the Phaedrus. The +satirical opening and the concluding words bear a great resemblance to +the earlier dialogues; the oration itself is professedly a mimetic work, +like the speeches in the Phaedrus, and cannot therefore be tested by +a comparison of the other writings of Plato. The funeral oration of +Pericles is expressly mentioned in the Phaedrus, and this may have +suggested the subject, in the same manner that the Cleitophon appears to +be suggested by the slight mention of Cleitophon and his attachment to +Thrasymachus in the Republic; and the Theages by the mention of Theages +in the Apology and Republic; or as the Second Alcibiades seems to be +founded upon the text of Xenophon, Mem. A similar taste for parody +appears not only in the Phaedrus, but in the Protagoras, in the +Symposium, and to a certain extent in the Parmenides. + +To these two doubtful writings of Plato I have added the First +Alcibiades, which, of all the disputed dialogues of Plato, has the +greatest merit, and is somewhat longer than any of them, though not +verified by the testimony of Aristotle, and in many respects at variance +with the Symposium in the description of the relations of Socrates +and Alcibiades. Like the Lesser Hippias and the Menexenus, it is to be +compared to the earlier writings of Plato. The motive of the piece may, +perhaps, be found in that passage of the Symposium in which Alcibiades +describes himself as self-convicted by the words of Socrates. For the +disparaging manner in which Schleiermacher has spoken of this dialogue +there seems to be no sufficient foundation. At the same time, the lesson +imparted is simple, and the irony more transparent than in the undoubted +dialogues of Plato. We know, too, that Alcibiades was a favourite +thesis, and that at least five or six dialogues bearing this name passed +current in antiquity, and are attributed to contemporaries of Socrates +and Plato. (1) In the entire absence of real external evidence (for +the catalogues of the Alexandrian librarians cannot be regarded as +trustworthy); and (2) in the absence of the highest marks either of +poetical or philosophical excellence; and (3) considering that we have +express testimony to the existence of contemporary writings bearing +the name of Alcibiades, we are compelled to suspend our judgment on the +genuineness of the extant dialogue. + +Neither at this point, nor at any other, do we propose to draw an +absolute line of demarcation between genuine and spurious writings of +Plato. They fade off imperceptibly from one class to another. There may +have been degrees of genuineness in the dialogues themselves, as there +are certainly degrees of evidence by which they are supported. The +traditions of the oral discourses both of Socrates and Plato may have +formed the basis of semi-Platonic writings; some of them may be of the +same mixed character which is apparent in Aristotle and Hippocrates, +although the form of them is different. But the writings of Plato, +unlike the writings of Aristotle, seem never to have been confused with +the writings of his disciples: this was probably due to their definite +form, and to their inimitable excellence. The three dialogues which +we have offered in the Appendix to the criticism of the reader may +be partly spurious and partly genuine; they may be altogether +spurious;--that is an alternative which must be frankly admitted. Nor +can we maintain of some other dialogues, such as the Parmenides, and +the Sophist, and Politicus, that no considerable objection can be urged +against them, though greatly overbalanced by the weight (chiefly) +of internal evidence in their favour. Nor, on the other hand, can +we exclude a bare possibility that some dialogues which are usually +rejected, such as the Greater Hippias and the Cleitophon, may be +genuine. The nature and object of these semi-Platonic writings require +more careful study and more comparison of them with one another, and +with forged writings in general, than they have yet received, before we +can finally decide on their character. We do not consider them all as +genuine until they can be proved to be spurious, as is often maintained +and still more often implied in this and similar discussions; but +should say of some of them, that their genuineness is neither proven nor +disproven until further evidence about them can be adduced. And we are +as confident that the Epistles are spurious, as that the Republic, the +Timaeus, and the Laws are genuine. + +On the whole, not a twentieth part of the writings which pass under +the name of Plato, if we exclude the works rejected by the ancients +themselves and two or three other plausible inventions, can be fairly +doubted by those who are willing to allow that a considerable change +and growth may have taken place in his philosophy (see above). That +twentieth debatable portion scarcely in any degree affects our judgment +of Plato, either as a thinker or a writer, and though suggesting some +interesting questions to the scholar and critic, is of little importance +to the general reader. + + + + +LESSER HIPPIAS + + + + +INTRODUCTION. + +The Lesser Hippias may be compared with the earlier dialogues of Plato, +in which the contrast of Socrates and the Sophists is most strongly +exhibited. Hippias, like Protagoras and Gorgias, though civil, is vain +and boastful: he knows all things; he can make anything, including his +own clothes; he is a manufacturer of poems and declamations, and also of +seal-rings, shoes, strigils; his girdle, which he has woven himself, is +of a finer than Persian quality. He is a vainer, lighter nature than +the two great Sophists (compare Protag.), but of the same character +with them, and equally impatient of the short cut-and-thrust method of +Socrates, whom he endeavours to draw into a long oration. At last, he +gets tired of being defeated at every point by Socrates, and is with +difficulty induced to proceed (compare Thrasymachus, Protagoras, +Callicles, and others, to whom the same reluctance is ascribed). + +Hippias like Protagoras has common sense on his side, when he argues, +citing passages of the Iliad in support of his view, that Homer intended +Achilles to be the bravest, Odysseus the wisest of the Greeks. But he is +easily overthrown by the superior dialectics of Socrates, who pretends +to show that Achilles is not true to his word, and that no similar +inconsistency is to be found in Odysseus. Hippias replies that Achilles +unintentionally, but Odysseus intentionally, speaks falsehood. But is it +better to do wrong intentionally or unintentionally? Socrates, relying +on the analogy of the arts, maintains the former, Hippias the latter +of the two alternatives...All this is quite conceived in the spirit of +Plato, who is very far from making Socrates always argue on the side +of truth. The over-reasoning on Homer, which is of course satirical, is +also in the spirit of Plato. Poetry turned logic is even more ridiculous +than 'rhetoric turned logic,' and equally fallacious. There were +reasoners in ancient as well as in modern times, who could never receive +the natural impression of Homer, or of any other book which they +read. The argument of Socrates, in which he picks out the apparent +inconsistencies and discrepancies in the speech and actions of Achilles, +and the final paradox, 'that he who is true is also false,' remind us +of the interpretation by Socrates of Simonides in the Protagoras, and of +similar reasonings in the first book of the Republic. The discrepancies +which Socrates discovers in the words of Achilles are perhaps as great +as those discovered by some of the modern separatists of the Homeric +poems... + +At last, Socrates having caught Hippias in the toils of the voluntary +and involuntary, is obliged to confess that he is wandering about in the +same labyrinth; he makes the reflection on himself which others would +make upon him (compare Protagoras). He does not wonder that he should be +in a difficulty, but he wonders at Hippias, and he becomes sensible +of the gravity of the situation, when ordinary men like himself can no +longer go to the wise and be taught by them. + +It may be remarked as bearing on the genuineness of this dialogue: (1) +that the manners of the speakers are less subtle and refined than in +the other dialogues of Plato; (2) that the sophistry of Socrates is more +palpable and unblushing, and also more unmeaning; (3) that many turns +of thought and style are found in it which appear also in the other +dialogues:--whether resemblances of this kind tell in favour of or +against the genuineness of an ancient writing, is an important question +which will have to be answered differently in different cases. For that +a writer may repeat himself is as true as that a forger may imitate; and +Plato elsewhere, either of set purpose or from forgetfulness, is full +of repetitions. The parallelisms of the Lesser Hippias, as already +remarked, are not of the kind which necessarily imply that the dialogue +is the work of a forger. The parallelisms of the Greater Hippias with +the other dialogues, and the allusion to the Lesser (where Hippias +sketches the programme of his next lecture, and invites Socrates to +attend and bring any friends with him who may be competent judges), are +more than suspicious:--they are of a very poor sort, such as we cannot +suppose to have been due to Plato himself. The Greater Hippias more +resembles the Euthydemus than any other dialogue; but is immeasurably +inferior to it. The Lesser Hippias seems to have more merit than the +Greater, and to be more Platonic in spirit. The character of Hippias is +the same in both dialogues, but his vanity and boasting are even more +exaggerated in the Greater Hippias. His art of memory is specially +mentioned in both. He is an inferior type of the same species as +Hippodamus of Miletus (Arist. Pol.). Some passages in which the Lesser +Hippias may be advantageously compared with the undoubtedly genuine +dialogues of Plato are the following:--Less. Hipp.: compare Republic +(Socrates' cunning in argument): compare Laches (Socrates' feeling about +arguments): compare Republic (Socrates not unthankful): compare Republic +(Socrates dishonest in argument). + +The Lesser Hippias, though inferior to the other dialogues, may be +reasonably believed to have been written by Plato, on the ground (1) +of considerable excellence; (2) of uniform tradition beginning with +Aristotle and his school. That the dialogue falls below the standard of +Plato's other works, or that he has attributed to Socrates an unmeaning +paradox (perhaps with the view of showing that he could beat the +Sophists at their own weapons; or that he could 'make the worse appear +the better cause'; or merely as a dialectical experiment)--are not +sufficient reasons for doubting the genuineness of the work. + + + + +PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Eudicus, Socrates, Hippias. + + +EUDICUS: Why are you silent, Socrates, after the magnificent display +which Hippias has been making? Why do you not either refute his words, +if he seems to you to have been wrong in any point, or join with us in +commending him? There is the more reason why you should speak, because +we are now alone, and the audience is confined to those who may fairly +claim to take part in a philosophical discussion. + +SOCRATES: I should greatly like, Eudicus, to ask Hippias the meaning +of what he was saying just now about Homer. I have heard your father, +Apemantus, declare that the Iliad of Homer is a finer poem than the +Odyssey in the same degree that Achilles was a better man than Odysseus; +Odysseus, he would say, is the central figure of the one poem and +Achilles of the other. Now, I should like to know, if Hippias has no +objection to tell me, what he thinks about these two heroes, and which +of them he maintains to be the better; he has already told us in the +course of his exhibition many things of various kinds about Homer and +divers other poets. + +EUDICUS: I am sure that Hippias will be delighted to answer anything +which you would like to ask; tell me, Hippias, if Socrates asks you a +question, will you answer him? + +HIPPIAS: Indeed, Eudicus, I should be strangely inconsistent if I +refused to answer Socrates, when at each Olympic festival, as I went up +from my house at Elis to the temple of Olympia, where all the Hellenes +were assembled, I continually professed my willingness to perform any of +the exhibitions which I had prepared, and to answer any questions which +any one had to ask. + +SOCRATES: Truly, Hippias, you are to be congratulated, if at every +Olympic festival you have such an encouraging opinion of your own wisdom +when you go up to the temple. I doubt whether any muscular hero would be +so fearless and confident in offering his body to the combat at Olympia, +as you are in offering your mind. + +HIPPIAS: And with good reason, Socrates; for since the day when I first +entered the lists at Olympia I have never found any man who was my +superior in anything. (Compare Gorgias.) + +SOCRATES: What an ornament, Hippias, will the reputation of your wisdom +be to the city of Elis and to your parents! But to return: what say you +of Odysseus and Achilles? Which is the better of the two? and in what +particular does either surpass the other? For when you were exhibiting +and there was company in the room, though I could not follow you, I did +not like to ask what you meant, because a crowd of people were present, +and I was afraid that the question might interrupt your exhibition. But +now that there are not so many of us, and my friend Eudicus bids me ask, +I wish you would tell me what you were saying about these two heroes, so +that I may clearly understand; how did you distinguish them? + +HIPPIAS: I shall have much pleasure, Socrates, in explaining to you more +clearly than I could in public my views about these and also about other +heroes. I say that Homer intended Achilles to be the bravest of the men +who went to Troy, Nestor the wisest, and Odysseus the wiliest. + +SOCRATES: O rare Hippias, will you be so good as not to laugh, if I find +a difficulty in following you, and repeat my questions several times +over? Please to answer me kindly and gently. + +HIPPIAS: I should be greatly ashamed of myself, Socrates, if I, who +teach others and take money of them, could not, when I was asked by you, +answer in a civil and agreeable manner. + +SOCRATES: Thank you: the fact is, that I seemed to understand what you +meant when you said that the poet intended Achilles to be the bravest +of men, and also that he intended Nestor to be the wisest; but when you +said that he meant Odysseus to be the wiliest, I must confess that I +could not understand what you were saying. Will you tell me, and then I +shall perhaps understand you better; has not Homer made Achilles wily? + +HIPPIAS: Certainly not, Socrates; he is the most straight-forward of +mankind, and when Homer introduces them talking with one another in the +passage called the Prayers, Achilles is supposed by the poet to say to +Odysseus:-- + +'Son of Laertes, sprung from heaven, crafty Odysseus, I will speak out +plainly the word which I intend to carry out in act, and which will, +I believe, be accomplished. For I hate him like the gates of death who +thinks one thing and says another. But I will speak that which shall be +accomplished.' + +Now, in these verses he clearly indicates the character of the two men; +he shows Achilles to be true and simple, and Odysseus to be wily and +false; for he supposes Achilles to be addressing Odysseus in these +lines. + +SOCRATES: Now, Hippias, I think that I understand your meaning; when you +say that Odysseus is wily, you clearly mean that he is false? + +HIPPIAS: Exactly so, Socrates; it is the character of Odysseus, as he is +represented by Homer in many passages both of the Iliad and Odyssey. + +SOCRATES: And Homer must be presumed to have meant that the true man is +not the same as the false? + +HIPPIAS: Of course, Socrates. + +SOCRATES: And is that your own opinion, Hippias? + +HIPPIAS: Certainly; how can I have any other? + +SOCRATES: Well, then, as there is no possibility of asking Homer what +he meant in these verses of his, let us leave him; but as you show a +willingness to take up his cause, and your opinion agrees with what you +declare to be his, will you answer on behalf of yourself and him? + +HIPPIAS: I will; ask shortly anything which you like. + +SOCRATES: Do you say that the false, like the sick, have no power to do +things, or that they have the power to do things? + +HIPPIAS: I should say that they have power to do many things, and in +particular to deceive mankind. + +SOCRATES: Then, according to you, they are both powerful and wily, are +they not? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And are they wily, and do they deceive by reason of their +simplicity and folly, or by reason of their cunning and a certain sort +of prudence? + +HIPPIAS: By reason of their cunning and prudence, most certainly. + +SOCRATES: Then they are prudent, I suppose? + +HIPPIAS: So they are--very. + +SOCRATES: And if they are prudent, do they know or do they not know what +they do? + +HIPPIAS: Of course, they know very well; and that is why they do +mischief to others. + +SOCRATES: And having this knowledge, are they ignorant, or are they +wise? + +HIPPIAS: Wise, certainly; at least, in so far as they can deceive. + +SOCRATES: Stop, and let us recall to mind what you are saying; are you +not saying that the false are powerful and prudent and knowing and wise +in those things about which they are false? + +HIPPIAS: To be sure. + +SOCRATES: And the true differ from the false--the true and the false are +the very opposite of each other? + +HIPPIAS: That is my view. + +SOCRATES: Then, according to your view, it would seem that the false are +to be ranked in the class of the powerful and wise? + +HIPPIAS: Assuredly. + +SOCRATES: And when you say that the false are powerful and wise in so +far as they are false, do you mean that they have or have not the power +of uttering their falsehoods if they like? + +HIPPIAS: I mean to say that they have the power. + +SOCRATES: In a word, then, the false are they who are wise and have the +power to speak falsely? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: Then a man who has not the power of speaking falsely and is +ignorant cannot be false? + +HIPPIAS: You are right. + +SOCRATES: And every man has power who does that which he wishes at the +time when he wishes. I am not speaking of any special case in which he +is prevented by disease or something of that sort, but I am speaking +generally, as I might say of you, that you are able to write my name +when you like. Would you not call a man able who could do that? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And tell me, Hippias, are you not a skilful calculator and +arithmetician? + +HIPPIAS: Yes, Socrates, assuredly I am. + +SOCRATES: And if some one were to ask you what is the sum of 3 +multiplied by 700, you would tell him the true answer in a moment, if +you pleased? + +HIPPIAS: certainly I should. + +SOCRATES: Is not that because you are the wisest and ablest of men in +these matters? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And being as you are the wisest and ablest of men in these +matters of calculation, are you not also the best? + +HIPPIAS: To be sure, Socrates, I am the best. + +SOCRATES: And therefore you would be the most able to tell the truth +about these matters, would you not? + +HIPPIAS: Yes, I should. + +SOCRATES: And could you speak falsehoods about them equally well? I +must beg, Hippias, that you will answer me with the same frankness and +magnanimity which has hitherto characterized you. If a person were to +ask you what is the sum of 3 multiplied by 700, would not you be the +best and most consistent teller of a falsehood, having always the power +of speaking falsely as you have of speaking truly, about these same +matters, if you wanted to tell a falsehood, and not to answer truly? +Would the ignorant man be better able to tell a falsehood in matters +of calculation than you would be, if you chose? Might he not sometimes +stumble upon the truth, when he wanted to tell a lie, because he did +not know, whereas you who are the wise man, if you wanted to tell a lie +would always and consistently lie? + +HIPPIAS: Yes, there you are quite right. + +SOCRATES: Does the false man tell lies about other things, but not about +number, or when he is making a calculation? + +HIPPIAS: To be sure; he would tell as many lies about number as about +other things. + +SOCRATES: Then may we further assume, Hippias, that there are men who +are false about calculation and number? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: Who can they be? For you have already admitted that he who is +false must have the ability to be false: you said, as you will remember, +that he who is unable to be false will not be false? + +HIPPIAS: Yes, I remember; it was so said. + +SOCRATES: And were you not yourself just now shown to be best able to +speak falsely about calculation? + +HIPPIAS: Yes; that was another thing which was said. + +SOCRATES: And are you not likewise said to speak truly about +calculation? + +HIPPIAS: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: Then the same person is able to speak both falsely and truly +about calculation? And that person is he who is good at calculation--the +arithmetician? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: Who, then, Hippias, is discovered to be false at calculation? +Is he not the good man? For the good man is the able man, and he is the +true man. + +HIPPIAS: That is evident. + +SOCRATES: Do you not see, then, that the same man is false and also true +about the same matters? And the true man is not a whit better than the +false; for indeed he is the same with him and not the very opposite, as +you were just now imagining. + +HIPPIAS: Not in that instance, clearly. + +SOCRATES: Shall we examine other instances? + +HIPPIAS: Certainly, if you are disposed. + +SOCRATES: Are you not also skilled in geometry? + +HIPPIAS: I am. + +SOCRATES: Well, and does not the same hold in that science also? Is +not the same person best able to speak falsely or to speak truly about +diagrams; and he is--the geometrician? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: He and no one else is good at it? + +HIPPIAS: Yes, he and no one else. + +SOCRATES: Then the good and wise geometer has this double power in the +highest degree; and if there be a man who is false about diagrams the +good man will be he, for he is able to be false; whereas the bad is +unable, and for this reason is not false, as has been admitted. + +HIPPIAS: True. + +SOCRATES: Once more--let us examine a third case; that of the +astronomer, in whose art, again, you, Hippias, profess to be a still +greater proficient than in the preceding--do you not? + +HIPPIAS: Yes, I am. + +SOCRATES: And does not the same hold of astronomy? + +HIPPIAS: True, Socrates. + +SOCRATES: And in astronomy, too, if any man be able to speak falsely +he will be the good astronomer, but he who is not able will not speak +falsely, for he has no knowledge. + +HIPPIAS: Clearly not. + +SOCRATES: Then in astronomy also, the same man will be true and false? + +HIPPIAS: It would seem so. + +SOCRATES: And now, Hippias, consider the question at large about all +the sciences, and see whether the same principle does not always hold. +I know that in most arts you are the wisest of men, as I have heard you +boasting in the agora at the tables of the money-changers, when you were +setting forth the great and enviable stores of your wisdom; and you said +that upon one occasion, when you went to the Olympic games, all that you +had on your person was made by yourself. You began with your ring, which +was of your own workmanship, and you said that you could engrave rings; +and you had another seal which was also of your own workmanship, and +a strigil and an oil flask, which you had made yourself; you said also +that you had made the shoes which you had on your feet, and the cloak +and the short tunic; but what appeared to us all most extraordinary and +a proof of singular art, was the girdle of your tunic, which, you said, +was as fine as the most costly Persian fabric, and of your own weaving; +moreover, you told us that you had brought with you poems, epic, tragic, +and dithyrambic, as well as prose writings of the most various kinds; +and you said that your skill was also pre-eminent in the arts which +I was just now mentioning, and in the true principles of rhythm and +harmony and of orthography; and if I remember rightly, there were a +great many other accomplishments in which you excelled. I have forgotten +to mention your art of memory, which you regard as your special glory, +and I dare say that I have forgotten many other things; but, as I was +saying, only look to your own arts--and there are plenty of them--and to +those of others; and tell me, having regard to the admissions which +you and I have made, whether you discover any department of art or any +description of wisdom or cunning, whichever name you use, in which the +true and false are different and not the same: tell me, if you can, of +any. But you cannot. + +HIPPIAS: Not without consideration, Socrates. + +SOCRATES: Nor will consideration help you, Hippias, as I believe; but +then if I am right, remember what the consequence will be. + +HIPPIAS: I do not know what you mean, Socrates. + +SOCRATES: I suppose that you are not using your art of memory, doubtless +because you think that such an accomplishment is not needed on the +present occasion. I will therefore remind you of what you were saying: +were you not saying that Achilles was a true man, and Odysseus false and +wily? + +HIPPIAS: I was. + +SOCRATES: And now do you perceive that the same person has turned out to +be false as well as true? If Odysseus is false he is also true, and if +Achilles is true he is also false, and so the two men are not opposed to +one another, but they are alike. + +HIPPIAS: O Socrates, you are always weaving the meshes of an argument, +selecting the most difficult point, and fastening upon details instead +of grappling with the matter in hand as a whole. Come now, and I will +demonstrate to you, if you will allow me, by many satisfactory proofs, +that Homer has made Achilles a better man than Odysseus, and a truthful +man too; and that he has made the other crafty, and a teller of many +untruths, and inferior to Achilles. And then, if you please, you shall +make a speech on the other side, in order to prove that Odysseus is the +better man; and this may be compared to mine, and then the company will +know which of us is the better speaker. + +SOCRATES: O Hippias, I do not doubt that you are wiser than I am. But I +have a way, when anybody else says anything, of giving close attention +to him, especially if the speaker appears to me to be a wise man. Having +a desire to understand, I question him, and I examine and analyse and +put together what he says, in order that I may understand; but if the +speaker appears to me to be a poor hand, I do not interrogate him, or +trouble myself about him, and you may know by this who they are whom I +deem to be wise men, for you will see that when I am talking with a wise +man, I am very attentive to what he says; and I ask questions of him, +in order that I may learn, and be improved by him. And I could not help +remarking while you were speaking, that when you recited the verses in +which Achilles, as you argued, attacks Odysseus as a deceiver, that you +must be strangely mistaken, because Odysseus, the man of wiles, is +never found to tell a lie; but Achilles is found to be wily on your own +showing. At any rate he speaks falsely; for first he utters these words, +which you just now repeated,-- + +'He is hateful to me even as the gates of death who thinks one thing and +says another:'-- + +And then he says, a little while afterwards, he will not be persuaded by +Odysseus and Agamemnon, neither will he remain at Troy; but, says he,-- + +'To-morrow, when I have offered sacrifices to Zeus and all the Gods, +having loaded my ships well, I will drag them down into the deep; and +then you shall see, if you have a mind, and if such things are a care +to you, early in the morning my ships sailing over the fishy Hellespont, +and my men eagerly plying the oar; and, if the illustrious shaker of the +earth gives me a good voyage, on the third day I shall reach the fertile +Phthia.' + +And before that, when he was reviling Agamemnon, he said,-- + +'And now to Phthia I will go, since to return home in the beaked ships +is far better, nor am I inclined to stay here in dishonour and amass +wealth and riches for you.' + +But although on that occasion, in the presence of the whole army, he +spoke after this fashion, and on the other occasion to his companions, +he appears never to have made any preparation or attempt to draw down +the ships, as if he had the least intention of sailing home; so nobly +regardless was he of the truth. Now I, Hippias, originally asked you +the question, because I was in doubt as to which of the two heroes was +intended by the poet to be the best, and because I thought that both of +them were the best, and that it would be difficult to decide which was +the better of them, not only in respect of truth and falsehood, but of +virtue generally, for even in this matter of speaking the truth they are +much upon a par. + +HIPPIAS: There you are wrong, Socrates; for in so far as Achilles speaks +falsely, the falsehood is obviously unintentional. He is compelled +against his will to remain and rescue the army in their misfortune. But +when Odysseus speaks falsely he is voluntarily and intentionally false. + +SOCRATES: You, sweet Hippias, like Odysseus, are a deceiver yourself. + +HIPPIAS: Certainly not, Socrates; what makes you say so? + +SOCRATES: Because you say that Achilles does not speak falsely from +design, when he is not only a deceiver, but besides being a braggart, +in Homer's description of him is so cunning, and so far superior to +Odysseus in lying and pretending, that he dares to contradict himself, +and Odysseus does not find him out; at any rate he does not appear to +say anything to him which would imply that he perceived his falsehood. + +HIPPIAS: What do you mean, Socrates? + +SOCRATES: Did you not observe that afterwards, when he is speaking to +Odysseus, he says that he will sail away with the early dawn; but to +Ajax he tells quite a different story? + +HIPPIAS: Where is that? + +SOCRATES: Where he says,-- + +'I will not think about bloody war until the son of warlike Priam, +illustrious Hector, comes to the tents and ships of the Myrmidons, +slaughtering the Argives, and burning the ships with fire; and about +my tent and dark ship, I suspect that Hector, although eager for the +battle, will nevertheless stay his hand.' + +Now, do you really think, Hippias, that the son of Thetis, who had been +the pupil of the sage Cheiron, had such a bad memory, or would have +carried the art of lying to such an extent (when he had been assailing +liars in the most violent terms only the instant before) as to say to +Odysseus that he would sail away, and to Ajax that he would remain, and +that he was not rather practising upon the simplicity of Odysseus, whom +he regarded as an ancient, and thinking that he would get the better of +him by his own cunning and falsehood? + +HIPPIAS: No, I do not agree with you, Socrates; but I believe that +Achilles is induced to say one thing to Ajax, and another to Odysseus in +the innocence of his heart, whereas Odysseus, whether he speaks falsely +or truly, speaks always with a purpose. + +SOCRATES: Then Odysseus would appear after all to be better than +Achilles? + +HIPPIAS: Certainly not, Socrates. + +SOCRATES: Why, were not the voluntary liars only just now shown to be +better than the involuntary? + +HIPPIAS: And how, Socrates, can those who intentionally err, and +voluntarily and designedly commit iniquities, be better than those who +err and do wrong involuntarily? Surely there is a great excuse to be +made for a man telling a falsehood, or doing an injury or any sort of +harm to another in ignorance. And the laws are obviously far more severe +on those who lie or do evil, voluntarily, than on those who do evil +involuntarily. + +SOCRATES: You see, Hippias, as I have already told you, how pertinacious +I am in asking questions of wise men. And I think that this is the only +good point about me, for I am full of defects, and always getting wrong +in some way or other. My deficiency is proved to me by the fact that +when I meet one of you who are famous for wisdom, and to whose wisdom +all the Hellenes are witnesses, I am found out to know nothing. For +speaking generally, I hardly ever have the same opinion about anything +which you have, and what proof of ignorance can be greater than to +differ from wise men? But I have one singular good quality, which is my +salvation; I am not ashamed to learn, and I ask and enquire, and am very +grateful to those who answer me, and never fail to give them my grateful +thanks; and when I learn a thing I never deny my teacher, or pretend +that the lesson is a discovery of my own; but I praise his wisdom, and +proclaim what I have learned from him. And now I cannot agree in what +you are saying, but I strongly disagree. Well, I know that this is my +own fault, and is a defect in my character, but I will not pretend to +be more than I am; and my opinion, Hippias, is the very contrary of what +you are saying. For I maintain that those who hurt or injure mankind, +and speak falsely and deceive, and err voluntarily, are better far +than those who do wrong involuntarily. Sometimes, however, I am of the +opposite opinion; for I am all abroad in my ideas about this matter, a +condition obviously occasioned by ignorance. And just now I happen to be +in a crisis of my disorder at which those who err voluntarily appear to +me better than those who err involuntarily. My present state of mind +is due to our previous argument, which inclines me to believe that in +general those who do wrong involuntarily are worse than those who do +wrong voluntarily, and therefore I hope that you will be good to me, and +not refuse to heal me; for you will do me a much greater benefit if you +cure my soul of ignorance, than you would if you were to cure my body of +disease. I must, however, tell you beforehand, that if you make a long +oration to me you will not cure me, for I shall not be able to follow +you; but if you will answer me, as you did just now, you will do me a +great deal of good, and I do not think that you will be any the worse +yourself. And I have some claim upon you also, O son of Apemantus, for +you incited me to converse with Hippias; and now, if Hippias will not +answer me, you must entreat him on my behalf. + +EUDICUS: But I do not think, Socrates, that Hippias will require any +entreaty of mine; for he has already said that he will refuse to answer +no man.--Did you not say so, Hippias? + +HIPPIAS: Yes, I did; but then, Eudicus, Socrates is always troublesome +in an argument, and appears to be dishonest. (Compare Gorgias; +Republic.) + +SOCRATES: Excellent Hippias, I do not do so intentionally (if I did, +it would show me to be a wise man and a master of wiles, as you would +argue), but unintentionally, and therefore you must pardon me; for, as +you say, he who is unintentionally dishonest should be pardoned. + +EUDICUS: Yes, Hippias, do as he says; and for our sake, and also that +you may not belie your profession, answer whatever Socrates asks you. + +HIPPIAS: I will answer, as you request me; and do you ask whatever you +like. + +SOCRATES: I am very desirous, Hippias, of examining this question, as to +which are the better--those who err voluntarily or involuntarily? And if +you will answer me, I think that I can put you in the way of approaching +the subject: You would admit, would you not, that there are good +runners? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And there are bad runners? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And he who runs well is a good runner, and he who runs ill is +a bad runner? + +HIPPIAS: Very true. + +SOCRATES: And he who runs slowly runs ill, and he who runs quickly runs +well? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: Then in a race, and in running, swiftness is a good, and +slowness is an evil quality? + +HIPPIAS: To be sure. + +SOCRATES: Which of the two then is a better runner? He who runs slowly +voluntarily, or he who runs slowly involuntarily? + +HIPPIAS: He who runs slowly voluntarily. + +SOCRATES: And is not running a species of doing? + +HIPPIAS: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: And if a species of doing, a species of action? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: Then he who runs badly does a bad and dishonourable action in +a race? + +HIPPIAS: Yes; a bad action, certainly. + +SOCRATES: And he who runs slowly runs badly? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: Then the good runner does this bad and disgraceful action +voluntarily, and the bad involuntarily? + +HIPPIAS: That is to be inferred. + +SOCRATES: Then he who involuntarily does evil actions, is worse in a +race than he who does them voluntarily? + +HIPPIAS: Yes, in a race. + +SOCRATES: Well, but at a wrestling match--which is the better wrestler, +he who falls voluntarily or involuntarily? + +HIPPIAS: He who falls voluntarily, doubtless. + +SOCRATES: And is it worse or more dishonourable at a wrestling match, to +fall, or to throw another? + +HIPPIAS: To fall. + +SOCRATES: Then, at a wrestling match, he who voluntarily does base +and dishonourable actions is a better wrestler than he who does them +involuntarily? + +HIPPIAS: That appears to be the truth. + +SOCRATES: And what would you say of any other bodily exercise--is not he +who is better made able to do both that which is strong and that which +is weak--that which is fair and that which is foul?--so that when +he does bad actions with the body, he who is better made does them +voluntarily, and he who is worse made does them involuntarily. + +HIPPIAS: Yes, that appears to be true about strength. + +SOCRATES: And what do you say about grace, Hippias? Is not he who is +better made able to assume evil and disgraceful figures and postures +voluntarily, as he who is worse made assumes them involuntarily? + +HIPPIAS: True. + +SOCRATES: Then voluntary ungracefulness comes from excellence of the +bodily frame, and involuntary from the defect of the bodily frame? + +HIPPIAS: True. + +SOCRATES: And what would you say of an unmusical voice; would you prefer +the voice which is voluntarily or involuntarily out of tune? + +HIPPIAS: That which is voluntarily out of tune. + +SOCRATES: The involuntary is the worse of the two? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And would you choose to possess goods or evils? + +HIPPIAS: Goods. + +SOCRATES: And would you rather have feet which are voluntarily or +involuntarily lame? + +HIPPIAS: Feet which are voluntarily lame. + +SOCRATES: But is not lameness a defect or deformity? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And is not blinking a defect in the eyes? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And would you rather always have eyes with which you might +voluntarily blink and not see, or with which you might involuntarily +blink? + +HIPPIAS: I would rather have eyes which voluntarily blink. + +SOCRATES: Then in your own case you deem that which voluntarily acts +ill, better than that which involuntarily acts ill? + +HIPPIAS: Yes, certainly, in cases such as you mention. + +SOCRATES: And does not the same hold of ears, nostrils, mouth, and of +all the senses--those which involuntarily act ill are not to be desired, +as being defective; and those which voluntarily act ill are to be +desired as being good? + +HIPPIAS: I agree. + +SOCRATES: And what would you say of instruments;--which are the better +sort of instruments to have to do with?--those with which a man acts +ill voluntarily or involuntarily? For example, had a man better have a +rudder with which he will steer ill, voluntarily or involuntarily? + +HIPPIAS: He had better have a rudder with which he will steer ill +voluntarily. + +SOCRATES: And does not the same hold of the bow and the lyre, the flute +and all other things? + +HIPPIAS: Very true. + +SOCRATES: And would you rather have a horse of such a temper that you +may ride him ill voluntarily or involuntarily? + +HIPPIAS: I would rather have a horse which I could ride ill voluntarily. + +SOCRATES: That would be the better horse? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: Then with a horse of better temper, vicious actions would be +produced voluntarily; and with a horse of bad temper involuntarily? + +HIPPIAS: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: And that would be true of a dog, or of any other animal? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And is it better to possess the mind of an archer who +voluntarily or involuntarily misses the mark? + +HIPPIAS: Of him who voluntarily misses. + +SOCRATES: This would be the better mind for the purposes of archery? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: Then the mind which involuntarily errs is worse than the mind +which errs voluntarily? + +HIPPIAS: Yes, certainly, in the use of the bow. + +SOCRATES: And what would you say of the art of medicine;--has not the +mind which voluntarily works harm to the body, more of the healing art? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: Then in the art of medicine the voluntary is better than the +involuntary? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: Well, and in lute-playing and in flute-playing, and in all +arts and sciences, is not that mind the better which voluntarily does +what is evil and dishonourable, and goes wrong, and is not the worse +that which does so involuntarily? + +HIPPIAS: That is evident. + +SOCRATES: And what would you say of the characters of slaves? Should we +not prefer to have those who voluntarily do wrong and make mistakes, +and are they not better in their mistakes than those who commit them +involuntarily? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And should we not desire to have our own minds in the best +state possible? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And will our minds be better if they do wrong and make +mistakes voluntarily or involuntarily? + +HIPPIAS: O, Socrates, it would be a monstrous thing to say that +those who do wrong voluntarily are better than those who do wrong +involuntarily! + +SOCRATES: And yet that appears to be the only inference. + +HIPPIAS: I do not think so. + +SOCRATES: But I imagined, Hippias, that you did. Please to answer once +more: Is not justice a power, or knowledge, or both? Must not justice, +at all events, be one of these? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: But if justice is a power of the soul, then the soul which has +the greater power is also the more just; for that which has the greater +power, my good friend, has been proved by us to be the better. + +HIPPIAS: Yes, that has been proved. + +SOCRATES: And if justice is knowledge, then the wiser will be the juster +soul, and the more ignorant the more unjust? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: But if justice be power as well as knowledge--then will not +the soul which has both knowledge and power be the more just, and that +which is the more ignorant be the more unjust? Must it not be so? + +HIPPIAS: Clearly. + +SOCRATES: And is not the soul which has the greater power and wisdom +also better, and better able to do both good and evil in every action? + +HIPPIAS: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: The soul, then, which acts ill, acts voluntarily by power and +art--and these either one or both of them are elements of justice? + +HIPPIAS: That seems to be true. + +SOCRATES: And to do injustice is to do ill, and not to do injustice is +to do well? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And will not the better and abler soul when it does wrong, do +wrong voluntarily, and the bad soul involuntarily? + +HIPPIAS: Clearly. + +SOCRATES: And the good man is he who has the good soul, and the bad man +is he who has the bad? + +HIPPIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: Then the good man will voluntarily do wrong, and the bad man +involuntarily, if the good man is he who has the good soul? + +HIPPIAS: Which he certainly has. + +SOCRATES: Then, Hippias, he who voluntarily does wrong and disgraceful +things, if there be such a man, will be the good man? + +HIPPIAS: There I cannot agree with you. + +SOCRATES: Nor can I agree with myself, Hippias; and yet that seems to be +the conclusion which, as far as we can see at present, must follow from +our argument. As I was saying before, I am all abroad, and being in +perplexity am always changing my opinion. Now, that I or any ordinary +man should wander in perplexity is not surprising; but if you wise men +also wander, and we cannot come to you and rest from our wandering, the +matter begins to be serious both to us and to you. + + + + + +End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Lesser Hippias, by Plato + +*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK LESSER HIPPIAS *** + +***** This file should be named 1673.txt or 1673.zip ***** +This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: + http://www.gutenberg.org/1/6/7/1673/ + +Produced by Sue Asscher + +Updated editions will replace the previous one--the old editions +will be renamed. + +Creating the works from public domain print editions means that no +one owns a United States copyright in these works, so the Foundation +(and you!) can copy and distribute it in the United States without +permission and without paying copyright royalties. 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