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You may copy it, give it away or +re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included +with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org + + +Title: Lesser Hippias + +Author: Plato + +Translator: Benjamin Jowett + +Release Date: October 15, 2008 [EBook #1673] +Last Updated: January 15, 2013 + +Language: English + +Character set encoding: ASCII + +*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK LESSER HIPPIAS *** + + + + +Produced by Sue Asscher, and David Widger + + + + + +</pre> + <p> + <br /><br /> + </p> + <h1> + LESSER HIPPIAS + </h1> + <p> + <br /> + </p> + <h2> + by Plato + </h2> + <p> + (see Appendix I) <br /> + </p> + <h3> + Translated by Benjamin Jowett + </h3> + <p> + <br /> <br /> + </p> + <hr /> + <p> + <br /> <br /> + </p> + <h3> + Contents + </h3> + <table summary="" style="margin-right: auto; margin-left: auto"> + <tr> + <td> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link2H_APPE"> APPENDIX I. </a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link2H_4_0002"> LESSER HIPPIAS </a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link2H_INTR"> INTRODUCTION. </a> + </p> + </td> + </tr> + </table> + <p> + <br /> <br /> + </p> + <hr /> + <p> + <br /> <br /> <a name="link2H_APPE" id="link2H_APPE"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <h2> + APPENDIX I. + </h2> + <p> + It seems impossible to separate by any exact line the genuine writings of + Plato from the spurious. The only external evidence to them which is of + much value is that of Aristotle; for the Alexandrian catalogues of a + century later include manifest forgeries. Even the value of the + Aristotelian authority is a good deal impaired by the uncertainty + concerning the date and authorship of the writings which are ascribed to + him. And several of the citations of Aristotle omit the name of Plato, and + some of them omit the name of the dialogue from which they are taken. + Prior, however, to the enquiry about the writings of a particular author, + general considerations which equally affect all evidence to the + genuineness of ancient writings are the following: Shorter works are more + likely to have been forged, or to have received an erroneous designation, + than longer ones; and some kinds of composition, such as epistles or + panegyrical orations, are more liable to suspicion than others; those, + again, which have a taste of sophistry in them, or the ring of a later + age, or the slighter character of a rhetorical exercise, or in which a + motive or some affinity to spurious writings can be detected, or which + seem to have originated in a name or statement really occurring in some + classical author, are also of doubtful credit; while there is no instance + of any ancient writing proved to be a forgery, which combines excellence + with length. A really great and original writer would have no object in + fathering his works on Plato; and to the forger or imitator, the 'literary + hack' of Alexandria and Athens, the Gods did not grant originality or + genius. Further, in attempting to balance the evidence for and against a + Platonic dialogue, we must not forget that the form of the Platonic + writing was common to several of his contemporaries. Aeschines, Euclid, + Phaedo, Antisthenes, and in the next generation Aristotle, are all said to + have composed dialogues; and mistakes of names are very likely to have + occurred. Greek literature in the third century before Christ was almost + as voluminous as our own, and without the safeguards of regular + publication, or printing, or binding, or even of distinct titles. An + unknown writing was naturally attributed to a known writer whose works + bore the same character; and the name once appended easily obtained + authority. A tendency may also be observed to blend the works and opinions + of the master with those of his scholars. To a later Platonist, the + difference between Plato and his imitators was not so perceptible as to + ourselves. The Memorabilia of Xenophon and the Dialogues of Plato are but + a part of a considerable Socratic literature which has passed away. And we + must consider how we should regard the question of the genuineness of a + particular writing, if this lost literature had been preserved to us. + </p> + <p> + These considerations lead us to adopt the following criteria of + genuineness: (1) That is most certainly Plato's which Aristotle attributes + to him by name, which (2) is of considerable length, of (3) great + excellence, and also (4) in harmony with the general spirit of the + Platonic writings. But the testimony of Aristotle cannot always be + distinguished from that of a later age (see above); and has various + degrees of importance. Those writings which he cites without mentioning + Plato, under their own names, e.g. the Hippias, the Funeral Oration, the + Phaedo, etc., have an inferior degree of evidence in their favour. They + may have been supposed by him to be the writings of another, although in + the case of really great works, e.g. the Phaedo, this is not credible; + those again which are quoted but not named, are still more defective in + their external credentials. There may be also a possibility that Aristotle + was mistaken, or may have confused the master and his scholars in the case + of a short writing; but this is inconceivable about a more important work, + e.g. the Laws, especially when we remember that he was living at Athens, + and a frequenter of the groves of the Academy, during the last twenty + years of Plato's life. Nor must we forget that in all his numerous + citations from the Platonic writings he never attributes any passage found + in the extant dialogues to any one but Plato. And lastly, we may remark + that one or two great writings, such as the Parmenides and the Politicus, + which are wholly devoid of Aristotelian (1) credentials may be fairly + attributed to Plato, on the ground of (2) length, (3) excellence, and (4) + accordance with the general spirit of his writings. Indeed the greater + part of the evidence for the genuineness of ancient Greek authors may be + summed up under two heads only: (1) excellence; and (2) uniformity of + tradition—a kind of evidence, which though in many cases sufficient, + is of inferior value. + </p> + <p> + Proceeding upon these principles we appear to arrive at the conclusion + that nineteen-twentieths of all the writings which have ever been ascribed + to Plato, are undoubtedly genuine. There is another portion of them, + including the Epistles, the Epinomis, the dialogues rejected by the + ancients themselves, namely, the Axiochus, De justo, De virtute, + Demodocus, Sisyphus, Eryxias, which on grounds, both of internal and + external evidence, we are able with equal certainty to reject. But there + still remains a small portion of which we are unable to affirm either that + they are genuine or spurious. They may have been written in youth, or + possibly like the works of some painters, may be partly or wholly the + compositions of pupils; or they may have been the writings of some + contemporary transferred by accident to the more celebrated name of Plato, + or of some Platonist in the next generation who aspired to imitate his + master. Not that on grounds either of language or philosophy we should + lightly reject them. Some difference of style, or inferiority of + execution, or inconsistency of thought, can hardly be considered decisive + of their spurious character. For who always does justice to himself, or + who writes with equal care at all times? Certainly not Plato, who exhibits + the greatest differences in dramatic power, in the formation of sentences, + and in the use of words, if his earlier writings are compared with his + later ones, say the Protagoras or Phaedrus with the Laws. Or who can be + expected to think in the same manner during a period of authorship + extending over above fifty years, in an age of great intellectual + activity, as well as of political and literary transition? Certainly not + Plato, whose earlier writings are separated from his later ones by as wide + an interval of philosophical speculation as that which separates his later + writings from Aristotle. + </p> + <p> + The dialogues which have been translated in the first Appendix, and which + appear to have the next claim to genuineness among the Platonic writings, + are the Lesser Hippias, the Menexenus or Funeral Oration, the First + Alcibiades. Of these, the Lesser Hippias and the Funeral Oration are cited + by Aristotle; the first in the Metaphysics, the latter in the Rhetoric. + Neither of them are expressly attributed to Plato, but in his citation of + both of them he seems to be referring to passages in the extant dialogues. + From the mention of 'Hippias' in the singular by Aristotle, we may perhaps + infer that he was unacquainted with a second dialogue bearing the same + name. Moreover, the mere existence of a Greater and Lesser Hippias, and of + a First and Second Alcibiades, does to a certain extent throw a doubt upon + both of them. Though a very clever and ingenious work, the Lesser Hippias + does not appear to contain anything beyond the power of an imitator, who + was also a careful student of the earlier Platonic writings, to invent. + The motive or leading thought of the dialogue may be detected in Xen. + Mem., and there is no similar instance of a 'motive' which is taken from + Xenophon in an undoubted dialogue of Plato. On the other hand, the + upholders of the genuineness of the dialogue will find in the Hippias a + true Socratic spirit; they will compare the Ion as being akin both in + subject and treatment; they will urge the authority of Aristotle; and they + will detect in the treatment of the Sophist, in the satirical reasoning + upon Homer, in the reductio ad absurdum of the doctrine that vice is + ignorance, traces of a Platonic authorship. In reference to the last point + we are doubtful, as in some of the other dialogues, whether the author is + asserting or overthrowing the paradox of Socrates, or merely following the + argument 'whither the wind blows.' That no conclusion is arrived at is + also in accordance with the character of the earlier dialogues. The + resemblances or imitations of the Gorgias, Protagoras, and Euthydemus, + which have been observed in the Hippias, cannot with certainty be adduced + on either side of the argument. On the whole, more may be said in favour + of the genuineness of the Hippias than against it. + </p> + <p> + The Menexenus or Funeral Oration is cited by Aristotle, and is interesting + as supplying an example of the manner in which the orators praised 'the + Athenians among the Athenians,' falsifying persons and dates, and casting + a veil over the gloomier events of Athenian history. It exhibits an + acquaintance with the funeral oration of Thucydides, and was, perhaps, + intended to rival that great work. If genuine, the proper place of the + Menexenus would be at the end of the Phaedrus. The satirical opening and + the concluding words bear a great resemblance to the earlier dialogues; + the oration itself is professedly a mimetic work, like the speeches in the + Phaedrus, and cannot therefore be tested by a comparison of the other + writings of Plato. The funeral oration of Pericles is expressly mentioned + in the Phaedrus, and this may have suggested the subject, in the same + manner that the Cleitophon appears to be suggested by the slight mention + of Cleitophon and his attachment to Thrasymachus in the Republic; and the + Theages by the mention of Theages in the Apology and Republic; or as the + Second Alcibiades seems to be founded upon the text of Xenophon, Mem. A + similar taste for parody appears not only in the Phaedrus, but in the + Protagoras, in the Symposium, and to a certain extent in the Parmenides. + </p> + <p> + To these two doubtful writings of Plato I have added the First Alcibiades, + which, of all the disputed dialogues of Plato, has the greatest merit, and + is somewhat longer than any of them, though not verified by the testimony + of Aristotle, and in many respects at variance with the Symposium in the + description of the relations of Socrates and Alcibiades. Like the Lesser + Hippias and the Menexenus, it is to be compared to the earlier writings of + Plato. The motive of the piece may, perhaps, be found in that passage of + the Symposium in which Alcibiades describes himself as self-convicted by + the words of Socrates. For the disparaging manner in which Schleiermacher + has spoken of this dialogue there seems to be no sufficient foundation. At + the same time, the lesson imparted is simple, and the irony more + transparent than in the undoubted dialogues of Plato. We know, too, that + Alcibiades was a favourite thesis, and that at least five or six dialogues + bearing this name passed current in antiquity, and are attributed to + contemporaries of Socrates and Plato. (1) In the entire absence of real + external evidence (for the catalogues of the Alexandrian librarians cannot + be regarded as trustworthy); and (2) in the absence of the highest marks + either of poetical or philosophical excellence; and (3) considering that + we have express testimony to the existence of contemporary writings + bearing the name of Alcibiades, we are compelled to suspend our judgment + on the genuineness of the extant dialogue. + </p> + <p> + Neither at this point, nor at any other, do we propose to draw an absolute + line of demarcation between genuine and spurious writings of Plato. They + fade off imperceptibly from one class to another. There may have been + degrees of genuineness in the dialogues themselves, as there are certainly + degrees of evidence by which they are supported. The traditions of the + oral discourses both of Socrates and Plato may have formed the basis of + semi-Platonic writings; some of them may be of the same mixed character + which is apparent in Aristotle and Hippocrates, although the form of them + is different. But the writings of Plato, unlike the writings of Aristotle, + seem never to have been confused with the writings of his disciples: this + was probably due to their definite form, and to their inimitable + excellence. The three dialogues which we have offered in the Appendix to + the criticism of the reader may be partly spurious and partly genuine; + they may be altogether spurious;—that is an alternative which must + be frankly admitted. Nor can we maintain of some other dialogues, such as + the Parmenides, and the Sophist, and Politicus, that no considerable + objection can be urged against them, though greatly overbalanced by the + weight (chiefly) of internal evidence in their favour. Nor, on the other + hand, can we exclude a bare possibility that some dialogues which are + usually rejected, such as the Greater Hippias and the Cleitophon, may be + genuine. The nature and object of these semi-Platonic writings require + more careful study and more comparison of them with one another, and with + forged writings in general, than they have yet received, before we can + finally decide on their character. We do not consider them all as genuine + until they can be proved to be spurious, as is often maintained and still + more often implied in this and similar discussions; but should say of some + of them, that their genuineness is neither proven nor disproven until + further evidence about them can be adduced. And we are as confident that + the Epistles are spurious, as that the Republic, the Timaeus, and the Laws + are genuine. + </p> + <p> + On the whole, not a twentieth part of the writings which pass under the + name of Plato, if we exclude the works rejected by the ancients themselves + and two or three other plausible inventions, can be fairly doubted by + those who are willing to allow that a considerable change and growth may + have taken place in his philosophy (see above). That twentieth debatable + portion scarcely in any degree affects our judgment of Plato, either as a + thinker or a writer, and though suggesting some interesting questions to + the scholar and critic, is of little importance to the general reader. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link2H_4_0002" id="link2H_4_0002"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /><br /><br /><br /> + </div> + <h1> + LESSER HIPPIAS + </h1> + <p> + <a name="link2H_INTR" id="link2H_INTR"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /><br /><br /><br /> + </div> + <h2> + INTRODUCTION. + </h2> + <p> + The Lesser Hippias may be compared with the earlier dialogues of Plato, in + which the contrast of Socrates and the Sophists is most strongly + exhibited. Hippias, like Protagoras and Gorgias, though civil, is vain and + boastful: he knows all things; he can make anything, including his own + clothes; he is a manufacturer of poems and declamations, and also of + seal-rings, shoes, strigils; his girdle, which he has woven himself, is of + a finer than Persian quality. He is a vainer, lighter nature than the two + great Sophists (compare Protag.), but of the same character with them, and + equally impatient of the short cut-and-thrust method of Socrates, whom he + endeavours to draw into a long oration. At last, he gets tired of being + defeated at every point by Socrates, and is with difficulty induced to + proceed (compare Thrasymachus, Protagoras, Callicles, and others, to whom + the same reluctance is ascribed). + </p> + <p> + Hippias like Protagoras has common sense on his side, when he argues, + citing passages of the Iliad in support of his view, that Homer intended + Achilles to be the bravest, Odysseus the wisest of the Greeks. But he is + easily overthrown by the superior dialectics of Socrates, who pretends to + show that Achilles is not true to his word, and that no similar + inconsistency is to be found in Odysseus. Hippias replies that Achilles + unintentionally, but Odysseus intentionally, speaks falsehood. But is it + better to do wrong intentionally or unintentionally? Socrates, relying on + the analogy of the arts, maintains the former, Hippias the latter of the + two alternatives...All this is quite conceived in the spirit of Plato, who + is very far from making Socrates always argue on the side of truth. The + over-reasoning on Homer, which is of course satirical, is also in the + spirit of Plato. Poetry turned logic is even more ridiculous than + 'rhetoric turned logic,' and equally fallacious. There were reasoners in + ancient as well as in modern times, who could never receive the natural + impression of Homer, or of any other book which they read. The argument of + Socrates, in which he picks out the apparent inconsistencies and + discrepancies in the speech and actions of Achilles, and the final + paradox, 'that he who is true is also false,' remind us of the + interpretation by Socrates of Simonides in the Protagoras, and of similar + reasonings in the first book of the Republic. The discrepancies which + Socrates discovers in the words of Achilles are perhaps as great as those + discovered by some of the modern separatists of the Homeric poems... + </p> + <p> + At last, Socrates having caught Hippias in the toils of the voluntary and + involuntary, is obliged to confess that he is wandering about in the same + labyrinth; he makes the reflection on himself which others would make upon + him (compare Protagoras). He does not wonder that he should be in a + difficulty, but he wonders at Hippias, and he becomes sensible of the + gravity of the situation, when ordinary men like himself can no longer go + to the wise and be taught by them. + </p> + <p> + It may be remarked as bearing on the genuineness of this dialogue: (1) + that the manners of the speakers are less subtle and refined than in the + other dialogues of Plato; (2) that the sophistry of Socrates is more + palpable and unblushing, and also more unmeaning; (3) that many turns of + thought and style are found in it which appear also in the other + dialogues:—whether resemblances of this kind tell in favour of or + against the genuineness of an ancient writing, is an important question + which will have to be answered differently in different cases. For that a + writer may repeat himself is as true as that a forger may imitate; and + Plato elsewhere, either of set purpose or from forgetfulness, is full of + repetitions. The parallelisms of the Lesser Hippias, as already remarked, + are not of the kind which necessarily imply that the dialogue is the work + of a forger. The parallelisms of the Greater Hippias with the other + dialogues, and the allusion to the Lesser (where Hippias sketches the + programme of his next lecture, and invites Socrates to attend and bring + any friends with him who may be competent judges), are more than + suspicious:—they are of a very poor sort, such as we cannot suppose + to have been due to Plato himself. The Greater Hippias more resembles the + Euthydemus than any other dialogue; but is immeasurably inferior to it. + The Lesser Hippias seems to have more merit than the Greater, and to be + more Platonic in spirit. The character of Hippias is the same in both + dialogues, but his vanity and boasting are even more exaggerated in the + Greater Hippias. His art of memory is specially mentioned in both. He is + an inferior type of the same species as Hippodamus of Miletus (Arist. + Pol.). Some passages in which the Lesser Hippias may be advantageously + compared with the undoubtedly genuine dialogues of Plato are the + following:—Less. Hipp.: compare Republic (Socrates' cunning in + argument): compare Laches (Socrates' feeling about arguments): compare + Republic (Socrates not unthankful): compare Republic (Socrates dishonest + in argument). + </p> + <p> + The Lesser Hippias, though inferior to the other dialogues, may be + reasonably believed to have been written by Plato, on the ground (1) of + considerable excellence; (2) of uniform tradition beginning with Aristotle + and his school. That the dialogue falls below the standard of Plato's + other works, or that he has attributed to Socrates an unmeaning paradox + (perhaps with the view of showing that he could beat the Sophists at their + own weapons; or that he could 'make the worse appear the better cause'; or + merely as a dialectical experiment)—are not sufficient reasons for + doubting the genuineness of the work. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link2H_4_0004" id="link2H_4_0004"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /><br /><br /><br /> + </div> + <h3> + PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Eudicus, Socrates, Hippias. + </h3> + <p> + <br /> <br /> + </p> + <hr /> + <p> + <br /> <br /> + </p> + <div class="poetry"> + <p> + EUDICUS: Why are you silent, Socrates, after the magnificent display + which Hippias has been making? Why do you not either refute his words, + if he seems to you to have been wrong in any point, or join with us in + commending him? There is the more reason why you should speak, because + we are now alone, and the audience is confined to those who may fairly + claim to take part in a philosophical discussion. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: I should greatly like, Eudicus, to ask Hippias the meaning of + what he was saying just now about Homer. I have heard your father, + Apemantus, declare that the Iliad of Homer is a finer poem than the + Odyssey in the same degree that Achilles was a better man than Odysseus; + Odysseus, he would say, is the central figure of the one poem and + Achilles of the other. Now, I should like to know, if Hippias has no + objection to tell me, what he thinks about these two heroes, and which + of them he maintains to be the better; he has already told us in the + course of his exhibition many things of various kinds about Homer and + divers other poets. + </p> + <p> + EUDICUS: I am sure that Hippias will be delighted to answer anything + which you would like to ask; tell me, Hippias, if Socrates asks you a + question, will you answer him? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Indeed, Eudicus, I should be strangely inconsistent if I + refused to answer Socrates, when at each Olympic festival, as I went up + from my house at Elis to the temple of Olympia, where all the Hellenes + were assembled, I continually professed my willingness to perform any of + the exhibitions which I had prepared, and to answer any questions which + any one had to ask. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Truly, Hippias, you are to be congratulated, if at every + Olympic festival you have such an encouraging opinion of your own wisdom + when you go up to the temple. I doubt whether any muscular hero would be + so fearless and confident in offering his body to the combat at Olympia, + as you are in offering your mind. + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: And with good reason, Socrates; for since the day when I first + entered the lists at Olympia I have never found any man who was my + superior in anything. (Compare Gorgias.) + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: What an ornament, Hippias, will the reputation of your wisdom + be to the city of Elis and to your parents! But to return: what say you + of Odysseus and Achilles? Which is the better of the two? and in what + particular does either surpass the other? For when you were exhibiting + and there was company in the room, though I could not follow you, I did + not like to ask what you meant, because a crowd of people were present, + and I was afraid that the question might interrupt your exhibition. But + now that there are not so many of us, and my friend Eudicus bids me ask, + I wish you would tell me what you were saying about these two heroes, so + that I may clearly understand; how did you distinguish them? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: I shall have much pleasure, Socrates, in explaining to you more + clearly than I could in public my views about these and also about other + heroes. I say that Homer intended Achilles to be the bravest of the men + who went to Troy, Nestor the wisest, and Odysseus the wiliest. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: O rare Hippias, will you be so good as not to laugh, if I find + a difficulty in following you, and repeat my questions several times + over? Please to answer me kindly and gently. + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: I should be greatly ashamed of myself, Socrates, if I, who + teach others and take money of them, could not, when I was asked by you, + answer in a civil and agreeable manner. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Thank you: the fact is, that I seemed to understand what you + meant when you said that the poet intended Achilles to be the bravest of + men, and also that he intended Nestor to be the wisest; but when you + said that he meant Odysseus to be the wiliest, I must confess that I + could not understand what you were saying. Will you tell me, and then I + shall perhaps understand you better; has not Homer made Achilles wily? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Certainly not, Socrates; he is the most straight-forward of + mankind, and when Homer introduces them talking with one another in the + passage called the Prayers, Achilles is supposed by the poet to say to + Odysseus:— + </p> + <p> + 'Son of Laertes, sprung from heaven, crafty Odysseus, I will speak out + plainly the word which I intend to carry out in act, and which will, I + believe, be accomplished. For I hate him like the gates of death who + thinks one thing and says another. But I will speak that which shall be + accomplished.' + </p> + <p> + Now, in these verses he clearly indicates the character of the two men; + he shows Achilles to be true and simple, and Odysseus to be wily and + false; for he supposes Achilles to be addressing Odysseus in these + lines. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Now, Hippias, I think that I understand your meaning; when you + say that Odysseus is wily, you clearly mean that he is false? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Exactly so, Socrates; it is the character of Odysseus, as he is + represented by Homer in many passages both of the Iliad and Odyssey. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And Homer must be presumed to have meant that the true man is + not the same as the false? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Of course, Socrates. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And is that your own opinion, Hippias? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Certainly; how can I have any other? + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Well, then, as there is no possibility of asking Homer what he + meant in these verses of his, let us leave him; but as you show a + willingness to take up his cause, and your opinion agrees with what you + declare to be his, will you answer on behalf of yourself and him? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: I will; ask shortly anything which you like. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Do you say that the false, like the sick, have no power to do + things, or that they have the power to do things? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: I should say that they have power to do many things, and in + particular to deceive mankind. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then, according to you, they are both powerful and wily, are + they not? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And are they wily, and do they deceive by reason of their + simplicity and folly, or by reason of their cunning and a certain sort + of prudence? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: By reason of their cunning and prudence, most certainly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then they are prudent, I suppose? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: So they are—very. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And if they are prudent, do they know or do they not know what + they do? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Of course, they know very well; and that is why they do + mischief to others. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And having this knowledge, are they ignorant, or are they + wise? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Wise, certainly; at least, in so far as they can deceive. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Stop, and let us recall to mind what you are saying; are you + not saying that the false are powerful and prudent and knowing and wise + in those things about which they are false? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: To be sure. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And the true differ from the false—the true and the + false are the very opposite of each other? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: That is my view. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then, according to your view, it would seem that the false are + to be ranked in the class of the powerful and wise? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Assuredly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And when you say that the false are powerful and wise in so + far as they are false, do you mean that they have or have not the power + of uttering their falsehoods if they like? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: I mean to say that they have the power. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: In a word, then, the false are they who are wise and have the + power to speak falsely? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then a man who has not the power of speaking falsely and is + ignorant cannot be false? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: You are right. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And every man has power who does that which he wishes at the + time when he wishes. I am not speaking of any special case in which he + is prevented by disease or something of that sort, but I am speaking + generally, as I might say of you, that you are able to write my name + when you like. Would you not call a man able who could do that? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And tell me, Hippias, are you not a skilful calculator and + arithmetician? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes, Socrates, assuredly I am. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And if some one were to ask you what is the sum of 3 + multiplied by 700, you would tell him the true answer in a moment, if + you pleased? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: certainly I should. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Is not that because you are the wisest and ablest of men in + these matters? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And being as you are the wisest and ablest of men in these + matters of calculation, are you not also the best? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: To be sure, Socrates, I am the best. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And therefore you would be the most able to tell the truth + about these matters, would you not? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes, I should. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And could you speak falsehoods about them equally well? I must + beg, Hippias, that you will answer me with the same frankness and + magnanimity which has hitherto characterized you. If a person were to + ask you what is the sum of 3 multiplied by 700, would not you be the + best and most consistent teller of a falsehood, having always the power + of speaking falsely as you have of speaking truly, about these same + matters, if you wanted to tell a falsehood, and not to answer truly? + Would the ignorant man be better able to tell a falsehood in matters of + calculation than you would be, if you chose? Might he not sometimes + stumble upon the truth, when he wanted to tell a lie, because he did not + know, whereas you who are the wise man, if you wanted to tell a lie + would always and consistently lie? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes, there you are quite right. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Does the false man tell lies about other things, but not about + number, or when he is making a calculation? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: To be sure; he would tell as many lies about number as about + other things. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then may we further assume, Hippias, that there are men who + are false about calculation and number? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Who can they be? For you have already admitted that he who is + false must have the ability to be false: you said, as you will remember, + that he who is unable to be false will not be false? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes, I remember; it was so said. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And were you not yourself just now shown to be best able to + speak falsely about calculation? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes; that was another thing which was said. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And are you not likewise said to speak truly about + calculation? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Certainly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then the same person is able to speak both falsely and truly + about calculation? And that person is he who is good at calculation—the + arithmetician? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Who, then, Hippias, is discovered to be false at calculation? + Is he not the good man? For the good man is the able man, and he is the + true man. + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: That is evident. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Do you not see, then, that the same man is false and also true + about the same matters? And the true man is not a whit better than the + false; for indeed he is the same with him and not the very opposite, as + you were just now imagining. + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Not in that instance, clearly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Shall we examine other instances? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Certainly, if you are disposed. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Are you not also skilled in geometry? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: I am. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Well, and does not the same hold in that science also? Is not + the same person best able to speak falsely or to speak truly about + diagrams; and he is—the geometrician? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: He and no one else is good at it? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes, he and no one else. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then the good and wise geometer has this double power in the + highest degree; and if there be a man who is false about diagrams the + good man will be he, for he is able to be false; whereas the bad is + unable, and for this reason is not false, as has been admitted. + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: True. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Once more—let us examine a third case; that of the + astronomer, in whose art, again, you, Hippias, profess to be a still + greater proficient than in the preceding—do you not? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes, I am. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And does not the same hold of astronomy? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: True, Socrates. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And in astronomy, too, if any man be able to speak falsely he + will be the good astronomer, but he who is not able will not speak + falsely, for he has no knowledge. + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Clearly not. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then in astronomy also, the same man will be true and false? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: It would seem so. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And now, Hippias, consider the question at large about all the + sciences, and see whether the same principle does not always hold. I + know that in most arts you are the wisest of men, as I have heard you + boasting in the agora at the tables of the money-changers, when you were + setting forth the great and enviable stores of your wisdom; and you said + that upon one occasion, when you went to the Olympic games, all that you + had on your person was made by yourself. You began with your ring, which + was of your own workmanship, and you said that you could engrave rings; + and you had another seal which was also of your own workmanship, and a + strigil and an oil flask, which you had made yourself; you said also + that you had made the shoes which you had on your feet, and the cloak + and the short tunic; but what appeared to us all most extraordinary and + a proof of singular art, was the girdle of your tunic, which, you said, + was as fine as the most costly Persian fabric, and of your own weaving; + moreover, you told us that you had brought with you poems, epic, tragic, + and dithyrambic, as well as prose writings of the most various kinds; + and you said that your skill was also pre-eminent in the arts which I + was just now mentioning, and in the true principles of rhythm and + harmony and of orthography; and if I remember rightly, there were a + great many other accomplishments in which you excelled. I have forgotten + to mention your art of memory, which you regard as your special glory, + and I dare say that I have forgotten many other things; but, as I was + saying, only look to your own arts—and there are plenty of them—and + to those of others; and tell me, having regard to the admissions which + you and I have made, whether you discover any department of art or any + description of wisdom or cunning, whichever name you use, in which the + true and false are different and not the same: tell me, if you can, of + any. But you cannot. + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Not without consideration, Socrates. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Nor will consideration help you, Hippias, as I believe; but + then if I am right, remember what the consequence will be. + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: I do not know what you mean, Socrates. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: I suppose that you are not using your art of memory, doubtless + because you think that such an accomplishment is not needed on the + present occasion. I will therefore remind you of what you were saying: + were you not saying that Achilles was a true man, and Odysseus false and + wily? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: I was. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And now do you perceive that the same person has turned out to + be false as well as true? If Odysseus is false he is also true, and if + Achilles is true he is also false, and so the two men are not opposed to + one another, but they are alike. + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: O Socrates, you are always weaving the meshes of an argument, + selecting the most difficult point, and fastening upon details instead + of grappling with the matter in hand as a whole. Come now, and I will + demonstrate to you, if you will allow me, by many satisfactory proofs, + that Homer has made Achilles a better man than Odysseus, and a truthful + man too; and that he has made the other crafty, and a teller of many + untruths, and inferior to Achilles. And then, if you please, you shall + make a speech on the other side, in order to prove that Odysseus is the + better man; and this may be compared to mine, and then the company will + know which of us is the better speaker. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: O Hippias, I do not doubt that you are wiser than I am. But I + have a way, when anybody else says anything, of giving close attention + to him, especially if the speaker appears to me to be a wise man. Having + a desire to understand, I question him, and I examine and analyse and + put together what he says, in order that I may understand; but if the + speaker appears to me to be a poor hand, I do not interrogate him, or + trouble myself about him, and you may know by this who they are whom I + deem to be wise men, for you will see that when I am talking with a wise + man, I am very attentive to what he says; and I ask questions of him, in + order that I may learn, and be improved by him. And I could not help + remarking while you were speaking, that when you recited the verses in + which Achilles, as you argued, attacks Odysseus as a deceiver, that you + must be strangely mistaken, because Odysseus, the man of wiles, is never + found to tell a lie; but Achilles is found to be wily on your own + showing. At any rate he speaks falsely; for first he utters these words, + which you just now repeated,— + </p> + <p> + 'He is hateful to me even as the gates of death who thinks one thing and + says another:'— + </p> + <p> + And then he says, a little while afterwards, he will not be persuaded by + Odysseus and Agamemnon, neither will he remain at Troy; but, says he,— + </p> + <p> + 'To-morrow, when I have offered sacrifices to Zeus and all the Gods, + having loaded my ships well, I will drag them down into the deep; and + then you shall see, if you have a mind, and if such things are a care to + you, early in the morning my ships sailing over the fishy Hellespont, + and my men eagerly plying the oar; and, if the illustrious shaker of the + earth gives me a good voyage, on the third day I shall reach the fertile + Phthia.' + </p> + <p> + And before that, when he was reviling Agamemnon, he said,— + </p> + <p> + 'And now to Phthia I will go, since to return home in the beaked ships + is far better, nor am I inclined to stay here in dishonour and amass + wealth and riches for you.' + </p> + <p> + But although on that occasion, in the presence of the whole army, he + spoke after this fashion, and on the other occasion to his companions, + he appears never to have made any preparation or attempt to draw down + the ships, as if he had the least intention of sailing home; so nobly + regardless was he of the truth. Now I, Hippias, originally asked you the + question, because I was in doubt as to which of the two heroes was + intended by the poet to be the best, and because I thought that both of + them were the best, and that it would be difficult to decide which was + the better of them, not only in respect of truth and falsehood, but of + virtue generally, for even in this matter of speaking the truth they are + much upon a par. + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: There you are wrong, Socrates; for in so far as Achilles speaks + falsely, the falsehood is obviously unintentional. He is compelled + against his will to remain and rescue the army in their misfortune. But + when Odysseus speaks falsely he is voluntarily and intentionally false. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: You, sweet Hippias, like Odysseus, are a deceiver yourself. + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Certainly not, Socrates; what makes you say so? + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Because you say that Achilles does not speak falsely from + design, when he is not only a deceiver, but besides being a braggart, in + Homer's description of him is so cunning, and so far superior to + Odysseus in lying and pretending, that he dares to contradict himself, + and Odysseus does not find him out; at any rate he does not appear to + say anything to him which would imply that he perceived his falsehood. + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: What do you mean, Socrates? + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Did you not observe that afterwards, when he is speaking to + Odysseus, he says that he will sail away with the early dawn; but to + Ajax he tells quite a different story? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Where is that? + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Where he says,— + </p> + <p> + 'I will not think about bloody war until the son of warlike Priam, + illustrious Hector, comes to the tents and ships of the Myrmidons, + slaughtering the Argives, and burning the ships with fire; and about my + tent and dark ship, I suspect that Hector, although eager for the + battle, will nevertheless stay his hand.' + </p> + <p> + Now, do you really think, Hippias, that the son of Thetis, who had been + the pupil of the sage Cheiron, had such a bad memory, or would have + carried the art of lying to such an extent (when he had been assailing + liars in the most violent terms only the instant before) as to say to + Odysseus that he would sail away, and to Ajax that he would remain, and + that he was not rather practising upon the simplicity of Odysseus, whom + he regarded as an ancient, and thinking that he would get the better of + him by his own cunning and falsehood? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: No, I do not agree with you, Socrates; but I believe that + Achilles is induced to say one thing to Ajax, and another to Odysseus in + the innocence of his heart, whereas Odysseus, whether he speaks falsely + or truly, speaks always with a purpose. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then Odysseus would appear after all to be better than + Achilles? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Certainly not, Socrates. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Why, were not the voluntary liars only just now shown to be + better than the involuntary? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: And how, Socrates, can those who intentionally err, and + voluntarily and designedly commit iniquities, be better than those who + err and do wrong involuntarily? Surely there is a great excuse to be + made for a man telling a falsehood, or doing an injury or any sort of + harm to another in ignorance. And the laws are obviously far more severe + on those who lie or do evil, voluntarily, than on those who do evil + involuntarily. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: You see, Hippias, as I have already told you, how pertinacious + I am in asking questions of wise men. And I think that this is the only + good point about me, for I am full of defects, and always getting wrong + in some way or other. My deficiency is proved to me by the fact that + when I meet one of you who are famous for wisdom, and to whose wisdom + all the Hellenes are witnesses, I am found out to know nothing. For + speaking generally, I hardly ever have the same opinion about anything + which you have, and what proof of ignorance can be greater than to + differ from wise men? But I have one singular good quality, which is my + salvation; I am not ashamed to learn, and I ask and enquire, and am very + grateful to those who answer me, and never fail to give them my grateful + thanks; and when I learn a thing I never deny my teacher, or pretend + that the lesson is a discovery of my own; but I praise his wisdom, and + proclaim what I have learned from him. And now I cannot agree in what + you are saying, but I strongly disagree. Well, I know that this is my + own fault, and is a defect in my character, but I will not pretend to be + more than I am; and my opinion, Hippias, is the very contrary of what + you are saying. For I maintain that those who hurt or injure mankind, + and speak falsely and deceive, and err voluntarily, are better far than + those who do wrong involuntarily. Sometimes, however, I am of the + opposite opinion; for I am all abroad in my ideas about this matter, a + condition obviously occasioned by ignorance. And just now I happen to be + in a crisis of my disorder at which those who err voluntarily appear to + me better than those who err involuntarily. My present state of mind is + due to our previous argument, which inclines me to believe that in + general those who do wrong involuntarily are worse than those who do + wrong voluntarily, and therefore I hope that you will be good to me, and + not refuse to heal me; for you will do me a much greater benefit if you + cure my soul of ignorance, than you would if you were to cure my body of + disease. I must, however, tell you beforehand, that if you make a long + oration to me you will not cure me, for I shall not be able to follow + you; but if you will answer me, as you did just now, you will do me a + great deal of good, and I do not think that you will be any the worse + yourself. And I have some claim upon you also, O son of Apemantus, for + you incited me to converse with Hippias; and now, if Hippias will not + answer me, you must entreat him on my behalf. + </p> + <p> + EUDICUS: But I do not think, Socrates, that Hippias will require any + entreaty of mine; for he has already said that he will refuse to answer + no man.—Did you not say so, Hippias? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes, I did; but then, Eudicus, Socrates is always troublesome + in an argument, and appears to be dishonest. (Compare Gorgias; + Republic.) + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Excellent Hippias, I do not do so intentionally (if I did, it + would show me to be a wise man and a master of wiles, as you would + argue), but unintentionally, and therefore you must pardon me; for, as + you say, he who is unintentionally dishonest should be pardoned. + </p> + <p> + EUDICUS: Yes, Hippias, do as he says; and for our sake, and also that + you may not belie your profession, answer whatever Socrates asks you. + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: I will answer, as you request me; and do you ask whatever you + like. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: I am very desirous, Hippias, of examining this question, as to + which are the better—those who err voluntarily or involuntarily? + And if you will answer me, I think that I can put you in the way of + approaching the subject: You would admit, would you not, that there are + good runners? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And there are bad runners? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And he who runs well is a good runner, and he who runs ill is + a bad runner? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Very true. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And he who runs slowly runs ill, and he who runs quickly runs + well? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then in a race, and in running, swiftness is a good, and + slowness is an evil quality? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: To be sure. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Which of the two then is a better runner? He who runs slowly + voluntarily, or he who runs slowly involuntarily? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: He who runs slowly voluntarily. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And is not running a species of doing? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Certainly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And if a species of doing, a species of action? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then he who runs badly does a bad and dishonourable action in + a race? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes; a bad action, certainly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And he who runs slowly runs badly? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then the good runner does this bad and disgraceful action + voluntarily, and the bad involuntarily? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: That is to be inferred. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then he who involuntarily does evil actions, is worse in a + race than he who does them voluntarily? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes, in a race. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Well, but at a wrestling match—which is the better + wrestler, he who falls voluntarily or involuntarily? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: He who falls voluntarily, doubtless. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And is it worse or more dishonourable at a wrestling match, to + fall, or to throw another? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: To fall. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then, at a wrestling match, he who voluntarily does base and + dishonourable actions is a better wrestler than he who does them + involuntarily? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: That appears to be the truth. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And what would you say of any other bodily exercise—is + not he who is better made able to do both that which is strong and that + which is weak—that which is fair and that which is foul?—so + that when he does bad actions with the body, he who is better made does + them voluntarily, and he who is worse made does them involuntarily. + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes, that appears to be true about strength. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And what do you say about grace, Hippias? Is not he who is + better made able to assume evil and disgraceful figures and postures + voluntarily, as he who is worse made assumes them involuntarily? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: True. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then voluntary ungracefulness comes from excellence of the + bodily frame, and involuntary from the defect of the bodily frame? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: True. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And what would you say of an unmusical voice; would you prefer + the voice which is voluntarily or involuntarily out of tune? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: That which is voluntarily out of tune. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: The involuntary is the worse of the two? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And would you choose to possess goods or evils? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Goods. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And would you rather have feet which are voluntarily or + involuntarily lame? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Feet which are voluntarily lame. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: But is not lameness a defect or deformity? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And is not blinking a defect in the eyes? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And would you rather always have eyes with which you might + voluntarily blink and not see, or with which you might involuntarily + blink? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: I would rather have eyes which voluntarily blink. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then in your own case you deem that which voluntarily acts + ill, better than that which involuntarily acts ill? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes, certainly, in cases such as you mention. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And does not the same hold of ears, nostrils, mouth, and of + all the senses—those which involuntarily act ill are not to be + desired, as being defective; and those which voluntarily act ill are to + be desired as being good? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: I agree. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And what would you say of instruments;—which are the + better sort of instruments to have to do with?—those with which a + man acts ill voluntarily or involuntarily? For example, had a man better + have a rudder with which he will steer ill, voluntarily or + involuntarily? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: He had better have a rudder with which he will steer ill + voluntarily. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And does not the same hold of the bow and the lyre, the flute + and all other things? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Very true. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And would you rather have a horse of such a temper that you + may ride him ill voluntarily or involuntarily? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: I would rather have a horse which I could ride ill voluntarily. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: That would be the better horse? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then with a horse of better temper, vicious actions would be + produced voluntarily; and with a horse of bad temper involuntarily? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Certainly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And that would be true of a dog, or of any other animal? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And is it better to possess the mind of an archer who + voluntarily or involuntarily misses the mark? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Of him who voluntarily misses. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: This would be the better mind for the purposes of archery? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then the mind which involuntarily errs is worse than the mind + which errs voluntarily? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes, certainly, in the use of the bow. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And what would you say of the art of medicine;—has not + the mind which voluntarily works harm to the body, more of the healing + art? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then in the art of medicine the voluntary is better than the + involuntary? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Well, and in lute-playing and in flute-playing, and in all + arts and sciences, is not that mind the better which voluntarily does + what is evil and dishonourable, and goes wrong, and is not the worse + that which does so involuntarily? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: That is evident. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And what would you say of the characters of slaves? Should we + not prefer to have those who voluntarily do wrong and make mistakes, and + are they not better in their mistakes than those who commit them + involuntarily? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And should we not desire to have our own minds in the best + state possible? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And will our minds be better if they do wrong and make + mistakes voluntarily or involuntarily? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: O, Socrates, it would be a monstrous thing to say that those + who do wrong voluntarily are better than those who do wrong + involuntarily! + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And yet that appears to be the only inference. + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: I do not think so. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: But I imagined, Hippias, that you did. Please to answer once + more: Is not justice a power, or knowledge, or both? Must not justice, + at all events, be one of these? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: But if justice is a power of the soul, then the soul which has + the greater power is also the more just; for that which has the greater + power, my good friend, has been proved by us to be the better. + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes, that has been proved. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And if justice is knowledge, then the wiser will be the juster + soul, and the more ignorant the more unjust? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: But if justice be power as well as knowledge—then will + not the soul which has both knowledge and power be the more just, and + that which is the more ignorant be the more unjust? Must it not be so? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Clearly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And is not the soul which has the greater power and wisdom + also better, and better able to do both good and evil in every action? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Certainly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: The soul, then, which acts ill, acts voluntarily by power and + art—and these either one or both of them are elements of justice? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: That seems to be true. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And to do injustice is to do ill, and not to do injustice is + to do well? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And will not the better and abler soul when it does wrong, do + wrong voluntarily, and the bad soul involuntarily? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Clearly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And the good man is he who has the good soul, and the bad man + is he who has the bad? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then the good man will voluntarily do wrong, and the bad man + involuntarily, if the good man is he who has the good soul? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: Which he certainly has. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then, Hippias, he who voluntarily does wrong and disgraceful + things, if there be such a man, will be the good man? + </p> + <p> + HIPPIAS: There I cannot agree with you. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Nor can I agree with myself, Hippias; and yet that seems to be + the conclusion which, as far as we can see at present, must follow from + our argument. As I was saying before, I am all abroad, and being in + perplexity am always changing my opinion. Now, that I or any ordinary + man should wander in perplexity is not surprising; but if you wise men + also wander, and we cannot come to you and rest from our wandering, the + matter begins to be serious both to us and to you. + </p> + <br /> + </div> + <p> + <br /><br /><br /><br /> + </p> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + + + + + +End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Lesser Hippias, by Plato + +*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK LESSER HIPPIAS *** + +***** This file should be named 1673-h.htm or 1673-h.zip ***** +This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: + http://www.gutenberg.org/1/6/7/1673/ + +Produced by Sue Asscher, and David Widger + +Updated editions will replace the previous one--the old editions +will be renamed. + +Creating the works from public domain print editions means that no +one owns a United States copyright in these works, so the Foundation +(and you!) can copy and distribute it in the United States without +permission and without paying copyright royalties. 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