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diff --git a/old/14500.txt b/old/14500.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..d22458f --- /dev/null +++ b/old/14500.txt @@ -0,0 +1,1388 @@ +The Project Gutenberg EBook of Two Dyaloges (c. 1549), by Desiderius Erasmus + +This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with +almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or +re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included +with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org + + +Title: Two Dyaloges (c. 1549) + +Author: Desiderius Erasmus + +Release Date: December 28, 2004 [EBook #14500] + +Language: English + +Character set encoding: ASCII + +*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK TWO DYALOGES (C. 1549) *** + + + + +Produced by David Starner, Louise Hope and the PG Online Distributed +Proofreading Team + + + + + +[Transcriber's note: The original text has no page +numbers. Page breaks have been marked with double +lines || like this. Three apparent typographic errors +were corrected and are listed at the end of this +text. All other spelling and punctuation are as in +the original.] + + * * * * * + * * * * + * * * * * + + [C]Two dyaloges + wrytten in laten + by the famous clerke. D. Eras- + mus of Roterodame/ one called + Polyphemus or the gospeller/ + the other dysposyng of thynges + and names/ translated + in to Englyshe by + Edmonde + Becke. + And prynted at Cantorbury + in saynt Paules paryshe + by John Mychell. + [+] + + * * * * * + + + The preface to the Reader. + + Lucius Anneus Seneca amonge many other pratie + saienges (gentle reder) hathe this also, whiche in + my iudgement is as trew as it is wittie. Rogado + cogit qui rogat superior. And in effecte is thus + moch to say, yf a manes superior or his better + desyre any thige, he might aswell comade it by + authoritie as ones to desyre it. + + A gentleman a nere cosyn of myne, but moch nerer + in fryndshyp, eftesones dyd instant and moue me to + translate these two dyaloges folowynge, to whose + getlenes I am so moch obliged, indetted and + bounde, that he myght well haue comaunded me to + this and more paynes: to whome I do not onely owe + seruyce, but my selfe also. And in accoplysshynge + of his most honest request (partly by cause I + wolde not the moost inhumane fawte of Ingratitude + shuld wor||thely be imputed to me, & that I + might in this thynge also (accordynge to my + bounden dutie) gratifie my frende) I haue hassard + my selfe in these daungerous dayes, where many + are so capcyous, some prone and redy to malygne & + depraue, and fewe whose eares are not so + festidious, tendre, and redy to please, that in + very tryfles & thynges of small importaunce, yet + exacte dylygence and exquisite iudgement is loked + for and requyred, of them whiche at this present + wyll attempte to translate any boke be it that the + matter be neuer so base. But what diligence I have + enployed in the translacio hereof I referre it to + the iudgement of the lerned sort, whiche coferynge + my translacion with the laten dyaloges, I dowte + not wyl condone and pardone my boldnesse, in that + that I chalenge the semblable lybertie whiche the + translatours of this tyme iustlie chalenge. For + some heretofore submytting them selfe to + seruytude, haue lytle ||respecte to the + obseruacio of the thyng which in translacyo is of + all other most necessary and requisite, that is to + saye, to rendre the sence & the very meanyng of + the author, not so relygyouslie addicte to + translate worde for worde, for so the sence of the + author is oftentimes corrupted & depraued, and + neyther the grace of the one tonge nor yet of the + other is truely observed or aptlie expressed. The + lerned knoweth that euery tonge hathe his peculyer + proprietie, phrase, maner of locucion, enargies + and vehemecie, which so aptlie in any other tog + can not be expressed. Yf I shal perceyue this my + symple doinge to be thankefully taken, and in good + parte accepted, it shall encorage me hereafter to + attempte the translacio of some bokes dysposing of + matters bothe delectable, frutefull, & expedient + to be knowen, by the grace of God, who gyuynge me + quyetnes of mynde, lybertie, and abylytie, shall + not desyste to communicat the frute of my + ||spare howers, to such as are not lerned in + the laten tonge: to whome I dedycat the fyrste + frutes of this my symple translacyon. + + + * * * * * + + A declaracion of the names. + + Poliphemus sygnifieth, valyant + or noble, and in an other sygnifi- + cacion, talcatyfe or clybbe of tong. The + name of a Gyant called Cyclops, ha- + uynge but one eye in his forhed, of a + huge stature and a myghtie personage. + And is aplyed here to sygnifie a great + freke or a lubber, as this Poliphemus + was, whiche beynge a man of warre or + a courtyer, had a newe testament in his + hande, and loked buselie for some + sentence or text of scrypture + and that Cannius his + companyo espyed + and sayd to + hi as fo- + loweth. + + + * * * * * + + [C]The parsons names are Cannius and Poliphemus. + + Cannius. what hunt Polipheme for here? Poliphemus. + Aske ye what I hunt for here, and yet ye se me + haue neyther dogges, dart, Jauelyn, nor huntyng + staffe. Cannius. Paraduenture ye hunt after some + praty nymphe of the couert. Poliphemus. By my + trouth and well coniectured, be holde what a + goodly pursenet, or a hay I haue here in my hande. + Cannius. Benedicite, what a straunge syght is + this, me thinke I se Bachus in a lyons skin, + Poliphemus with a boke in his hande. This is a + dogge in a doblet, a sowe with a sadle, of all + that euer I se it is a non decet. Poliphe. I haue + not onely paynted and garnyshed my boke with + saffron, but also I haue lymmed it withe Sinople, + asaphetida, redleed, vermilo, and byse. Can. It is + a warlyke boke, for it is furnished with knottes, + tassils ||plates, claspes, and brasen bullyons. + Poliphe. Take the boke in your hand and loke + within it. Canni. I se it wery well. Truly it + is a praty boke, but me thynkes ye haue not yet + trymmed it sufficiently for all your cost ye have + bestowed upon it. Poliphe. Why what lackes it? + Canni. Thou shuldest haue set thyne armes upon it. + Poliphemus. what armes I beseche the? Canius. Mary + the heed of Silenus, an olde iolthed drunkard + totynge out of a hoggeshed or a tunne, but in good + ernest, wherof dothe your boke dyspose or + intreate? dothe it teache the art and crafte to + drynke a duetaunt? Poli. Take hede in goddes name + what ye say lest ye bolt out a blasphemie before + ye be ware. Canius. why bydde ye me take hede what + I saye? is there any holy matter in the boke? + Poli. what ma it is the gospell boke, I trow there + is nothynge can be more holye. Cannius. God for + thy grace what hathe Poliphemus to do withe the + gospell? ||Poli. Nay why do ye not aske what a + chrysten man hathe to do with christe? Cannius. + I can not tell but me thynkes a rousty byll or a + halbard wold become such a great lubber or a + slouyn as thou arte a great deale better, for yf + it were my chauce to mete such one and knewe + him not upon seeborde, and he loked so lyke a + knaue and a ruffya as thou dost I wolde take hym + for a pirate or a rouer upon the see/ and if I met + such one in the wood for an arrante thefe, and a + man murderer. Poli. yea good syr but the gospell + teache vs this same lesson, that we shuld not + iudge any person by his loke or by his externall & + outwarde apparaunce. For lyke wyse as many tymes + vnder a graye freers coote a tyrannous mynde lyeth + secretly hyd, eue so a polled heed, a crispe or a + twyrled berde, a frowninge, a ferse, or a dogged + loke, a cappe, or a hat with an oystrich fether, a + soldyers cassocke, a payre of hoose all to cut and + manglyd, may co||uer an euangelycall mynde. + Cannius. why not, mary God forbyd elles, yea & + many tymes a symple shepe lyeth hyd in a wolfes + skynne, and yf a man maye credite and beleue the + fables of Aesope, an asse maye lye secretely + unknowen by cause he is in a lyons skynne. + Poliphe. Naye I knowe hym whiche bereth a shepe + vpon his heed, and a sore in his brest, to whome I + wold wysshe with al my hart that he had as whyte + and as fauorable frendes as he hathe blacke eyes. + And I wolde wisshe also that he were as well guylt + ouer and ouer as he hathe a colour mete to take + guyltynge. Canni. Yf ye take hym to were a shepe + vpon his heed, that weareth a cappe of woll, howe + greuously than art thou lodyn, or what an + excedynge heuy burde bearest thou then I praye the + whiche bearest a hoole shepe and an ostryche to + vpon thy heed? But what saye ye to hi doth not + he more folyssly which beareth a byrd vpon his + heed, and an asse in his ||brest. Poliphemus. + There ye nypped & taunted me in dede. Cannius. But + I wolde saye this geere dyd wonderous wel yf this + gospel boke dyd so adourne the with vertue as thou + hast adourned lymmed, and gorgiously garnysshed it + with many gay goodly glystryng ornamentes. Mary + syr thou hast set it forth in his ryght colours in + dede, wolde to god it might so adourne the with + good codicios that thou myghtest ones lerne to be + an honest man. Poli. There shall be no defaute in + me, I tell you I wyll do my diligence. Can. Naye + there is no doute of that, there shall be no more + faute in you now I dare say then was wonte to be. + Poli. Yea but (youre tarte tauntes, and youre + churlysshe checkes, and raylynges set asyde) tell + me I pray the this one thynge, do you thus + disprayse, condempne, or fynde faute with them + whiche caryeth aboute with them the newe testament + or the gospel boke? Canni. No by my fayth do I not + good ||praty man. Poliphe. Call ye me but a + praty one and I am hygher then you by ye length + of a good asses heed. Can. I thynke not fully so + moche yf the asse stretch forth his eares, but go + to it skyllis no matter of that, let it passe, he + that bare Christ vpon his backe was called + Christofer, and thou whiche bearest the gospell + boke aboute with the shall for Poliphemus be + called the gospeller or the gospell bearer. Polip. + Do not you counte it an holy thynge to cary aboute + with a man the newe testament? Cani. why no syr by + my trouth do I not, except thou graunte the very + asses to be holy to. Poli. How can an asse be + holy? Cannius. For one asse alone is able to beare + thre hundreth suche bokes, and I thynke suche a + great lubber as thou art were stronge inoughe to + beare as great a burden, and yf thou had a hansome + packesadle sette vpon thy backe. Poliphe. And yet + for all your iestynge it is not agaynst good + reason to saye ||that ye asse was holy which + bore christ. Cannius. I do not enuye you man for + this holynes for I had as lefe you had that + holynes as I, and yf it please you to take it I + wyll geue you an holy & a religious relyke of the + selfe same asse whiche christ rode vpon, and whan + ye haue it ye may kysse it lycke it and cull it as + ofte as ye lyst. Poli. Mary syr I thanke you, ye + can not gyue me a more thanckefull gyfte nor do me + a greatter pleasure, for that asse withouten any + tayle was made as holye as any asse could be by + the touchynge of christes body. Cannius. Undouted + they touched christes body also whiche stroke and + buffeted christ. Poliphe. yea but tell me this one + thynge I praye the in good ernest. Is it not a + great sygne of holynes in a man to cary aboute the + gospel boke or the newe testament? Cannius. It is + a token of holynes in dede if it be done without + hypocrysie, I meane if it be done without + dissimulacion/ and for ||that end, intent & + purpose, that it shuld be done for. Poliphe. What + the deuyl & a morten tellest thou a man of warre + of hypocrisie, away with hypocrisie to the monkes + and the freers. Cannius. Yea but bycause ye saye + so, tell me fyrste I praye you what ye call + hypocrisie. Po. When a man pretendis another thyng + outwardly then he meanis secretly in his mynde. + Cannius. But what dothe the bearynge aboute of the + newe testament sygnyfie. Dothe it not betoken that + thy lyfe shulde be conformable to the gospell + which thou carryest aboute with the. Poli. + I thynke well it dothe. Cannius. Wel then when thy + lyfe is not conformable to the boke, is not that + playne hypocrisie. Poliph. Tell me the what you + call the trewe carienge of the gospell boke aboute + with a man. Cani. Some men beare it aboute with + them in theyr hades (as the gray freers were wonte + to beare the rule of saynt Fraunces) and so the + porters of Londo, Asses ||& horses may beare + it as well as they. And there be some other that + carry the gospel in theyr mouthes onlie, and such + haue no other talke but al of christ and his + gospell, and that is a very poynt of a pharysey. + And some other carrye it in theyr myndes. But in + myne opynion he beares the gospell boke as he + shuld do whiche bothe beares it in his hande, + comunes of it with his mouth whan occasyon of + edyfyenge of his neyghboure whan conuenyent + oportunytie is mynystred to him, and also beares + it in his mynde and thynkes vpon it withe his + harte. Poli. Yea thou art a mery felow, where + shall a man fynde suche blacke swanes? Cannius. In + euery cathedrall church, where there be any + deacons, for they beare the gospel boke i theyr + hade, they synge the gospell aloude, somtyme in a + lofte that the people may heare the, althoughe + they do not vnderstand it, and theyr myndes are + vpo it when they synge it. Polphe. And yet for all + your ||sayenge all suche deacons are no saynttes + that beare the gospell so in theyr myndes. + Cannius. But lest ye play the subtyle and + capcious sophystryar with me I wyll tell you this + one thynge before. No man can beare the gospell in + his mynde but he must nedes loue it from the + bothum of his harte, no man loueth it inwardly and + from the bothu of his harte but he must nedes + declare and expresse the gospell in his lyuinge, + outwarde maners, & behauour. Poli. I can not skyll + of youre subtyle reasonynges, ye are to fyne for + me. Can. The I wyll commune with you after a + grosser maner, and more playnly. yf thou dyddest + beare a tankard of good Reynyshe wyne vpon thy + shulders onelye, what other thynge were it to the + then a burden. Poliphe. It were none other thynge + truly, it is no great pleasure so beare wyne. + Cannius. What and yf thou dranke asmoche as thou + coudest well holde in thy mouthe, after the manner + of ||a gargarisme & spyt it out agayne. Po. + That wolde do me no good at all, but take me not + with suche a faute I trow, for the wyne is very + bad and if I do so. Canni. But what and yf thou + drynke thy skynne full as thou art wont to do, whe + thou comest where good wyne is. Poliphe. Mary + there is nothyng more godly or heuynly. Cannius. + It warmes you at the stomacke, it settes your body + in a heate, it makes you loke with a ruddy face, + and setteth your hart vpon a mery pynne. Poliphe. + That is suerly so as ye saye in dede. Canni. The + gospell is suche a lyke thynge of all this worlde, + for after that it hathe ones persed & entered in + the veynes of the mynd it altereth, transposeth, + and cleane changeth vpsodowne the whole state of + ma, and chaungeth hym cleane as it were into a + nother man. Polip. Ah ha, nowe I wot wherabout ye + be, belyke ye thike that I lyue not accordynge to + the gospell or as a good gospeller shulde do. + ||Cannius. There is no man can dyssolue this + questio better then thy selfe. Poli. Call ye it + dissoluynge? Naye and yf a thynge come to + dyssoluynge gyue me a good sharpe axe in my hande + and I trow I shall dyssolue it well inoughe. + Canni. What woldest thou do, I praye the, and yf a + man shulde say to thy teth thou lyest falsely, or + elles call the by thy ryght name knaue in + englysshe. Poli. What wolde I do quod he, that is + a question in dede, mary he shulde feele the + wayghte of a payre of churlyshe fystes I warrant + the. Canni. And what and yf a man gaue you a good + cuffe vpon the eare that shulde waye a pounde? + Poliphe. It were a well geuen blowe that wolde + aduauntage hym. xx. by my trouthe and he escaped + so he myght say he rose vpon his ryght syde, but + it were maruayle & I cut not of his head harde by + his shulders. Canni. Yea but good felowe thy + gospell boke teacheth the to geue gentle answers, + and fayre wordes ||agayne for fowle, and to + hym that geueth the a blowe vpon the ryght cheke + to holde forth the lyfte. Poliphe. I do remembre I + haue red suche a thinge in my boke, but ye must + pardone me for I had quyte forgotten it. Can. Well + go to, what saye ye to prayer I suppose ye praye + very ofte. Poli. That is euyn as very a touche of + a pharesey as any can be. Cannius. I graunt it is + no lesse the a poynte of a pharesey to praye longe + and faynedly vnder a colour or pretece of holynes, + that is to saye when a man prayeth not fro the + bothum of his hart but with the lyppes only and + from the tethe outward, and that in opyn places + where great resort of people is, bycause they wold + be sene. But thy gospel boke teacheth the to praye + contynually, but so that thy prayer come from the + bothu of the hart. Poli. Yea but yet for all my + sayenge I praye sumtyme. Can. When I beseche the + when ye art a slepe? Poli. When it cometh in to + my mynde, ones ||or twyse may chaunce in a weke. + Can. what prayer sayst thou? Poliphe. The lordes + prayer, the Pater noster. Canni. Howe many tymes + ouer? Poli. Onis, & I trowe it is often inoughe, + for the gospell forbyddeth often repetynge of + one thynge. Canni. Can ye saye your pater noster + through to an ende & haue youre mynde runnynge + vpon nothynge elles in all that whyle? Poli. + By my trouthe and ye wyll beleue me I neuer yet + assayed nor proued whether I coulde do it or no. + But is it not sufficient to saye it with my + mouthe? Can. I can not tell whether it be or + no. But I am sure god here vs not excepte we praye + from the bothum of our harte. But tell me another + thyng I wyll aske the. Doest thou not fast very + often? Poli. No neuer in all my lyfe tyme and yf + it were not for lacke of meate. Can. And yet thy + boke alowes and commendes hyghly bothe fastynge + and prayer. Polip. So coulde I alowe them but that + my belly can ||not well affare nor a way with + fastyng. Cannius. Yea but Paule sayth they are not + the seruauntes of Iesus Christe whiche serue theyr + belly & make it theyr god. Do you eate fleshe + euery day? Po. No neuer when I haue none to eate, + but I neuer refuse it when it is set before me, + and I neuer aske question not for coscience but + for my belly sake. Can. Yea but these stronge + sturdy sydes of suche a chuffe and a lobbynge + lobye as thou arte wolde be fed well inoughe with + haye and barke of trees. Poliphe. Yea but chryste + sayd, that which entereth in at the mouthe + defyleth not the man. Canni. That is to be + vnderstand thus yf it be measurably taken, and + without the offendinge of our christian brother. + But Paule the disciple of chryst had rather + peryshe & sterue with hunger then onys to offende + his weyke brothren with his eatynge, and he + exhorteth vs to followe his example that in all + thynges we maye please all men. Poli. What tel + ||ye me of Paule, Paule is Paule and I am I. + Cannius. Do you gladly helpe to releue the poore + and the indygent with your goodes? Poli. Howe can + I helpe them whiche haue nothynge to gyue them, + and scant inoughe for my selfe. Cannius. ye myght + spare somthynge to helpe the with yf thou woldest + playe the good husband in lyuynge more warely, in + moderatynge thy superfluous expenses, and in + fallynge to thy worke lustely. Poliphemus. Nay + then I were a fole in dede, a penyworth of ease is + euer worth a peny, and nowe I haue found so moch + pleasure in ease that I can not fall to no labour. + Canni. Do you kepe the commaundementes of god? + Polip. Nowe ye appose me, kepe the comaundementes + quod he, that is a payne in dede. Cannius. Art + thou sory for thy synnes and thyne offences, doest + thou ernestly repent the for the. Poliphemus. + Christ hath payed the raunsome of synne and + satisfied for it alredy. Cannius. Howe ||prouest + thou then that thou louest the gospell and + fauoris the word of god as thou bearest men in + hande thou doest. Poliphemus. I wyll tell you that + by & by, and I dare saye you wyl confesse no + lesse your selfe then that I am an ernest + fauorer of the worde then I haue told you ye + tale. There was a certayne gray frere of the + order of saynt Fraunces with vs whiche neuer + ceased to bable and rayle agaynste the newe + testament of Erasmus, I chaunsed to talke with the + getylman pryuatly where no man was present but he + and I, and after I had communed awhyle with hym I + caught my frere by the polled pate with my left + hande and with my right hade I drew out my daggar + and I pomelled the knaue frere welfauardly aboute + his skonce that I made his face as swollen and as + puffed as a puddynge. Cannius. what a tale is + this that thou tellest me. Poliphemus. How say you + is not this a good and a sufficient proue that I + fa||uer the gospell. I gaue hym absolucion afore + he departed out of my handes with this newe + testament thryse layde vpon his pate as harde as I + myght dryue yt I made thre bunches in his heed + as bygge as thre egges in the name of the father, + the sone, & the holy goost. Can. Now by my trouth + this was well done & lyke a ryght gospeller of + these dayes. Truly this is as they saye to + dyffende the gospell with the gospell. Poliphe. + I met another graye frere of the same curryshe + couent, that knaue neuer had done in raylynge + agaynst Erasmus, so sone as I had espyed hym I was + styrred and moued with the brenninge zele of the + gospell that in thretenyng of him I made hym knele + downe vpon his knees and crye Erasmus mercie and + desyred me to forgyue hym, I may saye to you it + was hyghe tyme for hym to fall downe vpon his + marybones, and yf he had not done it by and by I + had my hal||barde vp redy to haue gyuen hym + betwyxt the necke and the heade, I loked as grymme + as modie Mars when he is in furyous fume, it is + trewe that I tell you, for there was inoughe sawe + the frere and me yf I wolde make a lye. Cannius. + I maruayle the frere was not out of his wyt. But + to retourne to oure purpose agayne, dost thou lyue + chastly? Poliphemus. Peraduenture I maye do here + after when I am more stryken in age. But shall I + confesse the trouthe to the? Canni. I am no preest + man, therfore yf thou wylt be shryuen thou must + seke a preest to whome thou maye be lawfully + confessed. Poliphe. I am wont styl to cofesse my + selfe to god, but I wyl confesse thus moche to the + at this tyme I am not yet become a perfyte + gospeller or an euangelical man, for I am but yet + as it were one of ye comune people, ye knowe wel + perde we gospellers haue iiii. gospels wrytten by + the .iiii. euange||lystes, & suche gospellers + as I am hunt busely, and chefely for .iiii. + thynges that we may haue. Unde. to prouyde dayntie + fare for the bellie, that nothynge be lackynge to + that parte of the body whiche nature hath placed + vnder the belly, ye wote what I meane, and to + obtayne and procure suche liuinge that we may lyue + welthely and at pleasure without carke & care. And + fynally that we maye do what we lyst without + checke or controlment, yf we gospellars lacke none + of all these thynges we crye and synge for ioye, + amonge our ful cuppes Io Io we tryumphe and are + wonderfull frolycke, we synge and make as mery as + cup and can, and saye the gospell is a lyue agayne + Chryst rayneth. Cannius. This is a lyfe for an + Epycure or a god belly and for no euangelicall + persone that professeth the gospell. Poli. I denye + not but that it is so as ye saye, but ye knowe + well that god is omnipotent and can do al thynges, + he can turne vs ||whe his wyll is sodenly in + to other maner of men. Cannius. So can he + transforme you in to hogges and swyne, the whiche + maye soner be done I iudge the to chaunge you into + good men for ye are halfe swynyshe & hoggyshe + alredy, your lyuynge is so beastlie. Poliphe. + Holde thy peas ma wolde to god there were no men + that dyd more hurt in the world then swyne, + bullockes, asses, and camelles. A ma may se many + men now adayes more crueller then lyons, more + rauenynge the wolues, more lecherous then sparous, + and that byte worse then mad dogges, more noysom + the snakes, vepers and adders. Cannius. But nowe + good Polipheme remembre and loke vpon thy selfe + for it is hyghe tyme for the to laye a syde thy + beastly lyuynge, and to be tourned from a brute + and a sauage beast in to a man. Poliphemus. I + thanke you good neyghbour Cannius for by saynt + Mary I thynke your counsayle is good/for the + prophetes of this ||tyme sayth the worlde is + almost at an end, and we shall haue domes daye + (as they call it) shortely. Cannius. We haue + therfore more nede to prepare our selues in a + redines agaynst that day, and that with as moche + spede as maye be possible. Poliphemus. as for my + part I loke and wayte styll euery day for the + myghty hande and power of christ. Cannius. Take + hede therfore that thou, when christ shall laye + his myghty hande vpon the be as tendre as waxe, + that accordynge to his eternall wyll he maye + frayme & fashyon the with his hande. But wherby I + praye the dothe these prophetes coniecture & + gather that the worlde is almost at an ende. + Poliphe. Bycause men (they saye) do the selfe same + thinge nowe adayes that they dyd, and were wont to + do which were lyuynge in the worlde a lytle whyle + before the deluge or Noyes floode. They make + solempne feastes, they banket, they quaffe, they + booll, they bybbe, they ryot men mary, ||wome + are maryed, they go a catterwallynge and + horehuntinge, they bye, they sell, they lend to + vserie, and borowe vpon vserie, they builde, kiges + keepe warre one agaynst another, preestes studie + howe they maye get many benefyces and promocios to + make them selfe riche and increase theyr worldly + substaunce, the diuynes make insolible sillogismus + and vnperfyte argumetes, they gather conclusyons, + monkes and freers rune, at rouers ouer all the + world, the comyn people are in a mase or a hurle + burle redy to make insurrections, and to conclude + breuelie there lackes no euyll miserie nor + myschefe, neyther hoger, thyrst fellonie, + robberie, warre, pestilence, sedicio, derth, and + great scarsytie and lacke of all good thynges. And + howe say you do not all these thynges argue and + sufficientlie proue that the worlde is almost at + an ende? Cannius. Yea but tell me I praye the of + all thes hoole hepe of euyls and miseries whiche + greueth the ||moste? Poliphemus. Whiche + thynkes thou, tell me thy fansie and coniecture? + Cannius. That the Deuyll (god saue vs) maye daunce + in thy purse for euer a crosse that thou hast to + kepe hi for the. Poliphe. I pray god I dye and yf + thou haue not hyt the nayle vpon the head. Now as + chaunceth I come newly from a knotte of good + companye where we haue dronke harde euery man for + his parte, & I am not behynde with myne, and + therfore my wytte is not halfe so freshe as it + wyll be, I wyll dyspute of the gospell with the + whan I am sobre. Canni. When shal I se the sobre? + Poli. When I shall be sobre. Cannius. Whe wyll + that be? Poliph. When thou shalt se me, in the + meane season god be with you gentle Cannius and + well mot you do. Cannius. And I wyshe to you a + gayne for my parte that thou ware in dede as + valiaunt or pusaunt a felowe as thy name soundeth. + Poliphe. And bycause ye shall lose nothynge at my + ||hande with wyshynge I pray god that Cannius + maye neuer lacke a good can or a stoope of wine or + bere, wherof he had his name. + + F I N I S + + * * * * * + + [C]The dialoge of thynges + and names. + + + A declaracion of the names. + + Beatus, is he whiche hathe abun + dance of al thinges that is good, + and is parfyte in all thynges commen- + dable or prayseworthy or to be desyred + of a good man. Somtyme it is ta- + ken for fortunate, ryche, or + noble. Bonifacius, fayre, + full of fauor or well + fauored. + [+] + + + * * * * * + + [C]The parsons names are Beatus and Bonifacius. + + _Beatus._ God saue you mayster Boniface. + _Bonifacius._ God saue you & god saue you agayne + getle _Beatus._ But I wold god bothe we were such, + and so in very dede as we be called by name, that + is to say thou riche & I fayre. _Beatus._ Why do + you thynke it nothynge worth at al to haue a goodly + glorious name. _Bonifacius._ Truely me thynke it is + of no valure or lytle good worthe, onles a man + haue the thynge itselfe whiche is sygnified by the + name. _Beatus._ Yea you maye well thynke your + pleasure, but I am assured that the most part of + all mortall men be of another mynde. _Bonifa._ It + may wel be I do not denye that they are mortal, + but suerly I do not byleue that they are me, which + are so beastly mynded. _Bea._ Yes good syr and they + be men to laye ||your lyfe, onlesse ye thynke + camels and asses do walke about vnder the fygure + and forme of men. _Boni._ Mary I can soner beleue + that then that they be men whiche esteme and passe + more vpon the name, then the thynge. _Bea._ + I graunte in certayne kyndes of thinges moost men + had rather haue the thynge then the name, but in + many thynges it is otherwyse and cleane cotrary. + _Bo._ I can not well tell what ye meane by that. + _Bea._ And yet the example of this matter is + apparant or sufficiently declared in vs two. Thou + arte called Bonifacius and thou hast in dede the + thynge wherby thou bearest thy name. Yet if there + were no other remedy but eyther thou must lacke + the one or the other, whether had you rather haue + a fowle and deformed face or elles for Boniface be + called Maleface or horner? _Boni._ Beleue me I had + rather be called fowle Thersites then haue a + monstrous or a deformyed face, whether I haue a + good face or no ||I can not tell. _Bea._ And + euen so had I for yf I were ryche and there were + no remedy but that I must eyther forgoo my + rychesse, or my name I had rather be called Irus + whiche was a poore beggers name then lacke my + ryches. _Boni._ I agree to you for asmoch as ye + speake the trouth, and as you thynke. _Bea._ Iudge + all them to be of the same mynde that I am of + whiche are indued with helthe or other commodities + and qualities appartaynynge to the body. _Boni._ + That is very trewe. _Bea._ Yea but I praye the + cosyder and marke howe many men we se whiche had + rather haue the name of a lerned and a holy man, + then to be well lerned, vertuous, & holy in dede. + _Boni._ I knowe a good sorte of suche men for my + part. _Bea._ Tell me thy fatasie I pray the do not + suche men passe more vpon the name then the + thinge? _Boni._ Methynke thy do. _Bea._ Yf we had a + logician here whiche could well and clarkelie + defyne what were a kynge, what a bysshoppe, + ||what a magistrate, what a philosopher is, + padueture we shuld find som amog these iolly + felowes whiche had rather haue the name then the + thynge. _Boni._ Surely & so thynke I. Yf he be a + kinge whiche by lawe and equyte regardes more the + commoditie of his people then his owne lucre/yf he + be a bisshop which alwayes is careful for the + lordes flocke comytted to his pastorall charge/yf + he be a magistrate which frankelie and of good + wyll dothe make prouysyon, and dothe all thinge + for the comyn welthes sake/and yf he be a + phylosopher whiche passynge not vpon the goodes of + this worlde, only geueth hym selfe to attayn to a + good mynde, and to leade a vertuous lyfe. _Bea._ + Lo thus ye may perseyue what a nombre of semblable + exaples ye may collecte & gether. _Boni._ Undouted + a great sorte. _Bea._ But I pray the tel me wyll + you saye that all these are no men. _Boni._ Nay I + feare rather lest in so sayenge it shulde cost vs + our lyues, and ||so myght we our selues shortelye + be no men. _Bea._ Yf man be a resonable creature, + howe ferre dyffers this from all good reason, that + in comodities apertayning to the body (for so + they deserue rather to be called then goodnes) and + in outwarde gyftes whiche dame fortune geues and + takes awaye at her pleasure, we had rather haue + the thynge then the name, and in the true and only + goodnes of the mynd we passe more vpon the name + then the thynge. _Boni._ So god helpe me it is a + corrupte and a preposterours iudgement, yf a man + marke and consyder it wel. _Bea._ The selfe same + reason is in contrarie thinges. _Boni._ I wolde + gladly knowe what ye meane by that. _Bea._ We maye + iudge lykewyse the same of the names of thynges to + be eschued, and incommodites which was spoken of + thynges to be diffyred and comodites. _Boni._ Nowe + I haue considered the thynges well, it apereth to + be euen so as ye saye in dede. __Bea.__ It + shulde be ||more feared of a good prynce to be + a tyraunt in dede then to haue the name of a + tyraunt. And yf an euyll bysshop be a thefe and a + robber, then we shulde not so greatly abhorre and + hate the name as the thynge. _Boni._ Eyther so it + is or so it shuld be. _Bea._ Nowe gather you of the + rest as I haue done of the prynce & the bysshop. + _Boni._ Me thynkes I vnderstande this gere + wonderouse well. _Bea._ Do not all men hate the + name of a fole or to be called a moome, a sotte, + or an asse? _Boni._ Yeas as moche as they do any + one thynge. _Bea._ And how saye you were not he a + starke fole that wold fishe with a golde bayte, + that wolde preferre or esteme glasse better then + precious stones, or whiche loues his horse or + dogges better then his wyfe and his chyldre? + _Boni._ He were as wyse as waltoms calfe, or + madder then iacke of Redyng. _Bea._ And be not + they as wyse whiche not assygned, chosen, nor yet + ones appoynted by the magistrates, but vpon ||theyr + owne heed aduenture to runne to the warres for + hoope of a lytle gayne, ieoperdynge theyr bodyes + and daungerynge theyr soules? Or howe wyse be + they which busie the selfe to get, gleyne, and + reepe to gyther, goodes and ryches when they haue + a mynde destitute and lackyng all goodness? Are + not they also euen as wyse that go gorgyously + apparylled, and buyldes goodly sumptuous houses, + when theyr myndes are not regarded but neglect + fylthye and with all kynde of vyce fowle + corrupted? And how wyse are they whiche are + carefull diligent and busie, about the helthe of + theyr body neglectynge and not myndynge at all + theyr soule, in daunger of so many deedly synnes? + And fynally to conclude howe wyse be they whiche + for a lytle shorte transytorye pleasure of this + lyfe deserue euerlastynge tormentes and + punyshementes? _Boni._ Euen reason forseth me to + graunt that they are more then fratyke and + folyshe. _Bea._ Yea ||but althoughe all the + whole worlde be full of suche fooles, a man can + scaselye fynde one whiche can abyde the name of a + foole, and yet they deserue to be called so for + asmoche as they hate not the thynge. _Boni._ Suerly + it is euen so as ye seye. _Bea._ Ye knowe also howe + the names of a lyar and a thefe are abhorred and + hated of all men. _Boni._ They are spyteful and + odious names, and abhorred of all men, and not + withe out good cause why. _Bea._ I graunte that, + but althoughe to commyt adulterie be a more wycked + synne then thefte yet for al that some men reioyse + and shewe them selfe glad of that name, whiche + wolde be redy by and by to drawe theyr swerdes and + fyghte withe a man that wolde or durst call them + theues. _Boni._ It is true there are many wolde + take it euyll as you saye in dede. _Bea._ And nowe + it is commyn to that poynt that thoughe there are + many vnthryftes and spedals whiche consume theyr + substaunce at the ||wyne and vpon harlottes, + and yet so wyllynge to continewe openly that all + the worlde wonders at them, yet they wyll be + offended and take peper in the noose yf a man + shulde call them ruffyans or baudy knaues. _Boni._ + Suche fellowes thynke they deserue prayse for the + thynge, and yet for all that they can not abyde + the name dewe to the thinge whiche they deserue. + _Bea._ There is scarslye any name amonges vs more + intollerable or worse can be abydden then to be + called a lyar or a lyeng fellowe. _Boni._ I haue + knowen some or this whiche haue kylled men for + suche a spytefull worde as that is. _Bea._ Yea yea + but wolde god suche hasty fellowes dyd as well + abhorre the thinge and hate lienge as well as to + be called lyers, was it neuer thy chaunce to be + dysceyued of any man whiche borowinge mony of the + appoyntynge the a certayne daye to repaye the sayd + money and so performyd not his appoyntment nor + kept his day? ||_Boni._ Yeas many tymes (god + knoweth) and yet hath he sworne many a greuous + othe and that not one tyme but many tymes. _Bea._ + Peraduenture he wolde haue ben so honest as to + haue payed it and yf he had had wherwith. _Boni._ + Naye that is not so for he was able inoughe, but + as he thought it better neuer to paye his dettes. + _Bea._ And what call you this in englyshe, is it + not playne lyenge? _Boni._ Yes as playne as + Dunstable way, there can not be a lowder lye then + this is. _Bea._ Durste you be so bolde to pulle + one of these good detters of yours by the sleue and + saye thus to hym, why hast thou dysceyued me so + many tymes and broken promyse with me, or to talke + to hym in playne englyshe, why doest thou make me + so many lyes? _Boni._ Why no syr by my trouthe + durst I not, excepte I were mynded before to chauge + halfe a dosen drye blowes with hym. _Bea._ Dothe + not masons Brekelayers, Carpenters, Smy||thes, + Goldsmithes, Taylours, disceyue and disapoynt vs + after the lyke maner daylye promysynge to do youre + worke suche a daye and suche a daye without any + fayle, or further delaye, and yet for all that + they parforme not theyr promesse althoughe it + stande the neuer somoche vpon hande, or that thou + shuldest take neuer so moche profyte by it. _Boni._ + This is a wonderous and strange vnshamefast + knauerye of all that euer I hard of. But and ye + speake of breakers of promyse then ye maye reken + amongest them lawyers and atturneys at the lawe, + which wyl not stycke to promyse or beare you in + hande that they wyll be diligent and ernest in the + furtherauce and spedie expedicion of your sute. + _Bea._ Reken quod he, naye ye maye reken fyve + hundreth mennes names besyde these of sundrye + faculties and occupacions whiche wyll promyse more + by an ynch of a candle then they wyll performe by + a whole pounde. _Boni._ Why ||and ye call this + lyenge all the worlde is full of suche lyenge. + _Bea._ Ye se also lykewyse that no man can abyde to + be called thefe, and yet all men do not abhorre + the thynge so greatly. _Boni._ I wolde gladly haue + you to declare your mynde in this more playnlye & + at large. _Bea._ What difference is there betwene + hym whiche stealeth thy money forthe of thy cofer, + and hym whiche forsweareth and falsely denyeth + that whiche thou comytted to his custodie to be + reserued and safely kept for thy vse only, or to + suche tyme as thou arte mynded to call for it + agayne. _Boni._ There is as they say neyther + barrell better hearing, but that in my iudgement + he is the falser knaue of the twayne whiche robbes + a man that puttes his confidence and trust in hym. + _Bea._ yea but howe fewe men are there nowe adayes + lyuynge whiche are contente to restore agayne that + whiche they were put in truste to kepe, or yf they + deluer it agayne it is ||so dymynysshed, + gelded, nypped, and pynched, that it is not + delyuered whollye, but some thinge cleues in theyr + fyngers, that the prouerbe may haue place where + the horse walloweth there lyeth some heares. + _Boni._ I thynke but a fewe that dothe otherwyse. + _Bea._ And yet for all that there is none of al + these that ca abyde it ones to be called thefe, + and yet forsothe they hate not the thing so + greatly. _Boni._ That is as trewe as the gospell. + _Bea._ Consyder me nowe and marke I beseche the + howe the goodes of orphanes, pupylls, wardes, and + fatherlesse chyldren be comunely ordered and vsed, + how wylles and testamentes be executed and + performed, how legacyes and bequethes be communelye + payde, Naye howe moche cleueth and hangeth fast in + the fyngers of the executors or with them that + mynyster and intermedle with the goodes of the + testatours. _Boni._ Many tymes they retayne and + kepe in theyr handes all togy||ther. _Bea._ Yea + they loue to playe the thefe well inoughe, but they + loue nothynge worse then to here of it. _Boni._ + That is very trewe. _Bea._ Howe lytle dyffers he + from a thefe whiche boroweth money of one and other + and so runneth in dette, with this intent and + purpose that yf he maye escape so or fynde suche a + crafty colour or a subtyle shyft, he intendeth + neuer to paye that he oweth. _Boni._ Paraduenture + he maye be called warer or more craftier the a + thefe is in dede but no poynt better, for it is + hard chosyng of a better where there is neuer a + good of them bothe. _Bea._ yea but althoughe there + be in euery place a great nombre of such + makeshyftes and slypper marchauntes yet the + starkest knaue of the all can not abyde to be + called thefe. _Boni._ God onely knoweth euery manes + hart and mynd, and therfore they are called of vs + men that are runne in dette or fer behynde the + hande, but not theues for that soun||deth vnswetely + and lyke a playne song note. _Bea._ What skyllys it + howe they be called amoge men yf they be theues + afore god. And where you say that god onely knoweth + euery mannes hart and mynde, euen so euery man + knoweth his owne mynde, whether in his wordes & + doynges he entende fraude, couyn, dysceyte, and + thefte or no. But what say ye by hym whiche when he + oweth more then he is worthe, wyll not stycke to + lashe prodygallye and set the cocke vpon the hoope, + and yet yf he haue any money at all lefte to spende + that a waye vnthryftely, and when he hathe played + the parte of a knauyshe spendall in one cytie + deludinge and disceyuyng his creditours, ronnes + out of this countre and getteth hym to some other + good towne, and there sekynge for straugers and + newe acquayntauce whom he may lykewyse begyle, yea + and playeth many suche lyke partes and shameful + shiftes. I praye the tell me dothe not suche a + ||greke declare euydentlye by his crafty + dealynge and false demeanour, what mynde is he of? + _Boni._ yes suerly as euydentlye as can be + possible. But yet suche felowes are wonte to + colour and cloke theyr doynges vnder a craftie + pretence. _Bea._ With what I beseche the? _Boni._ + They saye to owe moche and to dyuers persones is + communely vsed of great men, yea and of kynges + also as well as of them, and therfore they that + intende to be of that disposycyon wyll beare out + to the harde hedge the porte of a gentylman and + soo they wyll be taken and estemed for gentilmen + of the commune people. _Bea._ A gentylman and why + or to what entent and purpose a gentylman? _Boni._ + It is a straunge thynge to be spoken howe moche + they thynke it is mete for a gentylman or a + horseman to take vpon hym. _Bea._ By what equytie, + authoritie, or lawes. _Boni._ By none other but by + the selfe same lawes that the Admiralles of the + ||sees chalenge a proprietie in all suche thynges + as are cast vpon the shoore by wracke, althoughe + the ryghte owner come forthe and chalenge his owne + goodes. And also by the same lawes that some other + men saye all is theyrs what soeuer is founde + aboute a thefe or a robber whe he is take. _Boni._ + Such lawes as these are the arrantest theues that + are myght make them selues. _Bea._ yea and ye may + be sure they wold gladly with al theyr harts i + their bodies make suche lawes yf they coulde + mayntayne them or were of power to se them + executed, and they myght haue some thynge to laye + for theyr excuse if they could proclayme opyn warre + before they fell to robbynge. _Boni._ But who gaue + that pryuylege rather to a horseman then to a + foteman, or more to a gentylman the to a good + yeman. _Bea._ The fauoure that is shewed to men of + warre, for by suche shyftes and thus they practyse + before to be good men of warre that they ||maye be + more redy & hansome to spoyle theyr enemyes when + they shall encounter with the. _Boni._ I thynke + Pyrhus dyd so exercyse and breake his yonge + souldyers to the warres. _Bea._ No not Pyrrhus but + the Lacedemonians dyd. _Boni._ Mary syr hange vp + suche practysers or soldyers and theyr practisyng + to. But howe come they by the name of horsemen or + gentylmen that they vsurpe suche a great + prerogatyue? _Bea._ Some of them are gentylme borne + and it cometh to them by auncestrie, some bye it + by the meanes of maystrys money, and other some + gette it by certayne shyftes. _Boni._ But maye + euery man that wyl and lyst come by it by shyftes? + _Bea._ Yea why not, euery man maye be a gentylman + nowe adayes very well and yf theyr condicions and + maners be accordynge. _Boni._ What maners or + condicions must suche one haue I beseche the? + _Bea._ Yf he be occupyed aboute no goodnesse, yf he + can ruffle it ||and swashe in his satens and his + silkes and go gorgiously apparelled, yf he can + ratle in his rynges vpon the fyngers endes, yf he + can playe the ruffyan and the horemonger and kepe + a gaye hoore gallantlye, yf he be neuer well at + ease but when he is playenge at the dyse, yf he be + able to matche as moche an vnthryfte as hym selfe + with a newe payre of cardes, yf he spende his tyme + lyke an epycure vpon bankettinge, sumptuous fare, + and all kynde of pleasures, yf he talke of no + rascalles nor beggars, but bragge, bost, face, + brace, and crake of castelles, towers, and + skyrmysshes, and yf all his talke be of the warres + and blody battels, and playe the parte of + crackinge Thraso throughly, such gaye grekes, + lusty brutes and ionkers may take vpon them to be + at defyaunce withe whome they wyll and lyst, + thoughe the gentylman haue neuer a fote of lande + to lyue vpon. _Boni._ Call ye them horsmen. Mary + syr suche horsemen are wel ||worthy to ryde vpo + the gallowes, these are gentylmen of the Iebet of + all that euer I haue harde of. _Bea._ But yet there + be not afewe suche in that parte of Germany called + Nassen or Hessen. + + + F I N I S + + Traslated by Edmonde Becke + And prynted at Cantorbury + in saynt Paules parishe + by John Mychell. + [+] + + * * * * * + * * * * + * * * * * + +[Transcriber's note: The following typographical +errors were corrected. + "soldyers cassocke, a payre of hoose all to cut and + manglyd, may co||uer an euangelycall mynde." + hoose _was_ hoofe + "Poliphe. Naye I knowe hym whiche bereth a shepe + vpon his heed, and a sore in his brest" + sore _was_ fore + "orphanes, pupylls, wardes, and fatherlesse + chyldren be comunely ordered and vsed, how wylles" + comunely _was_ comuuely ] + + + + + +End of Project Gutenberg's Two Dyaloges (c. 1549), by Desiderius Erasmus + +*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK TWO DYALOGES (C. 1549) *** + +***** This file should be named 14500.txt or 14500.zip ***** +This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: + https://www.gutenberg.org/1/4/5/0/14500/ + +Produced by David Starner, Louise Hope and the PG Online Distributed +Proofreading Team + + +Updated editions will replace the previous one--the old editions +will be renamed. + +Creating the works from public domain print editions means that no +one owns a United States copyright in these works, so the Foundation +(and you!) can copy and distribute it in the United States without +permission and without paying copyright royalties. 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