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diff --git a/44004-8.txt b/44004-0.txt index 4438151..70f3ce7 100644 --- a/44004-8.txt +++ b/44004-0.txt @@ -1,39 +1,4 @@ -The Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (4 of 26): Hearings Vol. -IV (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with -almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or -re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included -with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org - - -Title: Warren Commission (4 of 26): Hearings Vol. IV (of 15) - -Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -Release Date: October 19, 2013 [EBook #44004] - -Language: English - -Character set encoding: ISO-8859-1 - -*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V4 *** - - - - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by -www.history-matters.com. - - - - - - - - +*** START OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK 44004 *** Transcriber's Note: Stylized "S", "U", and "V" symbols are denoted as =S=, =U=, and =V=. Italicized words are denoted with _underscores_. @@ -10515,7 +10480,7 @@ will ask you if that accurately depicts the angle of decline as the bullet passed through Governor Connally? Dr. SHAW. I think the declination of this line is a little too sharply -downward. I would place it about 5° off that line. +downward. I would place it about 5° off that line. Mr. SPECTER. Will you redraw the line then, Dr. Shaw, and initial it, indicating the more accurate angle? @@ -11881,7 +11846,7 @@ Mr. SPECTER. Are you now describing a second X-ray? Dr. GREGORY. No; these are two taken at right angle of the Governor's wrist prior to attention. These are diagnostic film, one made with the -hand palm down and one with the hand turned 90°. +hand palm down and one with the hand turned 90°. Mr. SPECTER. Do they bear identical numbers then? @@ -13500,13 +13465,13 @@ horizontal, and I would say--you don't have a caliper there, do you? Dr. GREGORY. Yes. -Dr. SHAW. I was going to guess somewhere between 25° and 30°. +Dr. SHAW. I was going to guess somewhere between 25° and 30°. Mr. DULLES. Sorry to ask these questions. Governor CONNALLY. That is fine. I think it is an excellent question. -Dr. SHAW. Well, this puts it right at 25°. +Dr. SHAW. Well, this puts it right at 25°. Mr. SPECTER. That is the angle then of elevation as you are measuring it? @@ -13539,10 +13504,10 @@ going to be much difference. Mr. DULLES. Were you seated in about that way, Governor? Governor CONNALLY. Mr. Dulles, I would say I was in about this position -when I was hit, with my face approximately looking toward you, 20° off +when I was hit, with my face approximately looking toward you, 20° off of center. -Dr. SHAW. Yes; I got 27°. That didn't make much difference. +Dr. SHAW. Yes; I got 27°. That didn't make much difference. Mr. SPECTER. Is that reading taken then while the Governor is in a seated position, Doctor? @@ -27681,7 +27646,7 @@ Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Shaneyfelt, looking at this Commission Exhibit 139, the weapon, I see that the stock is curved downward, about 8 inches--at a point approximately 8 inches--from the butt of the weapon, and that -it then recurves upward at an angle of approximately 10° to the plane +it then recurves upward at an angle of approximately 10° to the plane of the forepart of the butt--is that correct? Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. @@ -46024,361 +45989,4 @@ Page 467: "harassing his wife in anyway?" probably should be "any way". End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (4 of 26): Hearings Vol. IV (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy -*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V4 *** - -***** This file should be named 44004-8.txt or 44004-8.zip ***** -This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: - http://www.gutenberg.org/4/4/0/0/44004/ - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by -www.history-matters.com. - - -Updated editions will replace the previous one--the old editions -will be renamed. - -Creating the works from public domain print editions means that no -one owns a United States copyright in these works, so the Foundation -(and you!) can copy and distribute it in the United States without -permission and without paying copyright royalties. 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You may copy it, give it away or -re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included -with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org - - -Title: Warren Commission (4 of 26): Hearings Vol. IV (of 15) - -Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -Release Date: October 19, 2013 [EBook #44004] - -Language: English - -Character set encoding: ISO-8859-1 - -*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V4 *** - - - - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by -www.history-matters.com. - - - - - - -</pre> - +<div>*** START OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK 44004 ***</div> <div class="transnote covernote"> <p>Cover created by Transcriber and placed in the Public Domain.</p> @@ -1268,7 +1229,7 @@ cards, representing approximately 15 million people.</p> <p>In our civil files, in which are filed the fingerprints of the various types of applicants, service personnel and the like, we have fingerprints of approximately -62½ million people.</p> +62½ million people.</p> <p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Eisenberg</span>. Returning to palmprints, then, as I understand your testimony, they are not as good as fingerprints for purposes of classification, but @@ -3607,7 +3568,7 @@ groups.</p> <p>Representative <span class="smcap">Boggs</span>. How many do you have on file?</p> -<p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Latona</span>. We have the fingerprints of 77½ million people?</p> +<p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Latona</span>. We have the fingerprints of 77½ million people?</p> <p>Representative <span class="smcap">Boggs</span>. That includes all of those who were in the Army, <span class="locked">Navy——</span></p> @@ -9524,7 +9485,7 @@ high, they are very closely spaced.</p> <p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Dulles</span>. They are quite clear, about a tenth of an inch apart or less than that.</p> -<p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Cadigan</span>. Well, actually they are 24½ spaces per inch, which would be +<p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Cadigan</span>. Well, actually they are 24½ spaces per inch, which would be about 25 lines per inch.</p> <p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Murray</span>. Pockmarks?</p> @@ -9626,7 +9587,7 @@ than one type of dispensing machines?</p> <p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Cadigan</span>. Yes. I might point out, too, that the number of lines per inch will vary depending on the diameter of that wheel. In this particular instance -I found that there were 24½ spaces, which would be 25 lines per inch, on both.</p> +I found that there were 24½ spaces, which would be 25 lines per inch, on both.</p> <p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Eisenberg</span>. I believe that is 142, the bag you are handling, and 677, the sample?</p> @@ -10247,7 +10208,7 @@ from the same roll?</p> <p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Eisenberg</span>. How wide do these rolls come in your experience, in what widths do they come?</p> -<p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Cadigan</span>. Normally they are supplied in, I believe, 1-, 1½-, 2-, 2½-, and 3-inch +<p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Cadigan</span>. Normally they are supplied in, I believe, 1-, 1½-, 2-, 2½-, and 3-inch widths.</p> <p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Eisenberg</span>. So this was basically of a 3-inch width variety out of several @@ -10858,7 +10819,7 @@ will ask you if that accurately depicts the angle of decline as the bullet passe through Governor Connally?</p> <p>Dr. <span class="smcap">Shaw</span>. I think the declination of this line is a little too sharply downward. -I would place it about 5° off that line.</p> +I would place it about 5° off that line.</p> <p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Specter</span>. Will you redraw the line then, Dr. Shaw, and initial it, indicating the more accurate angle?</p> @@ -12158,7 +12119,7 @@ the radial bone here.</p> <p>Dr. <span class="smcap">Gregory</span>. No; these are two taken at right angle of the Governor's wrist prior to attention. These are diagnostic film, one made with the hand palm -down and one with the hand turned 90°.</p> +down and one with the hand turned 90°.</p> <p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Specter</span>. Do they bear identical numbers then?</p> @@ -13686,13 +13647,13 @@ and I would say—you don't have a caliper there, do you?</p> <p>Dr. <span class="smcap">Gregory</span>. Yes.</p> -<p>Dr. <span class="smcap">Shaw</span>. I was going to guess somewhere between 25° and 30°.</p> +<p>Dr. <span class="smcap">Shaw</span>. I was going to guess somewhere between 25° and 30°.</p> <p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Dulles</span>. Sorry to ask these questions.</p> <p>Governor <span class="smcap">Connally</span>. That is fine. I think it is an excellent question.</p> -<p>Dr. <span class="smcap">Shaw</span>. Well, this puts it right at 25°.</p> +<p>Dr. <span class="smcap">Shaw</span>. Well, this puts it right at 25°.</p> <p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Specter</span>. That is the angle then of elevation as you are measuring it?</p> @@ -13723,10 +13684,10 @@ difference.</p> <p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Dulles</span>. Were you seated in about that way, Governor?</p> <p>Governor <span class="smcap">Connally</span>. Mr. Dulles, I would say I was in about this position -when I was hit, with my face approximately looking toward you, 20° off of +when I was hit, with my face approximately looking toward you, 20° off of center.</p> -<p>Dr. <span class="smcap">Shaw</span>. Yes; I got 27°. That didn't make much difference.</p> +<p>Dr. <span class="smcap">Shaw</span>. Yes; I got 27°. That didn't make much difference.</p> <p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Specter</span>. Is that reading taken then while the Governor is in a seated position, Doctor?</p> @@ -20218,7 +20179,7 @@ was on Beckley.</p> where it is located?</p> <p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Fritz</span>. It is on the, room 317, on the third floor of the courts building, -and it isn't a large office. I believe it is 9½ feet by 14 feet, I have the exact +and it isn't a large office. I believe it is 9½ feet by 14 feet, I have the exact measurements that I think are correct. Glass all around, and it has a door leading out into a hallway. My secretaries are seated in the front. There is a lieutenant's office and desk across the hall from me. To my right and through @@ -26988,10 +26949,10 @@ that easternmost pipe?</p> <p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Belin</span>. Do you have what the measurements were between the south wall and that box that you tore the piece off of to make the palmprint takeoff?</p> -<p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Day</span>. Yes, sir; it would be 19½ inches. Actually the box was marked +<p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Day</span>. Yes, sir; it would be 19½ inches. Actually the box was marked "18 inches." If you will note there are six boards. I thought they were 3 inches -wide. On doublechecking I found they were 3¼ inches wide which would make -a 1½ inch difference in six boards.</p> +wide. On doublechecking I found they were 3¼ inches wide which would make +a 1½ inch difference in six boards.</p> <p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Belin</span>. And I believe you have already said that the bag was folded over when it was found, is that correct?</p> @@ -27427,7 +27388,7 @@ the bolt is turned down—is that correct?</p> <p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Eisenberg</span>. Mr. Shaneyfelt, looking at this Commission Exhibit 139, the weapon, I see that the stock is curved downward, about 8 inches—at a point approximately 8 inches—from the butt of the weapon, and that it then recurves -upward at an angle of approximately 10° to the plane of the forepart of +upward at an angle of approximately 10° to the plane of the forepart of the butt—is that correct?</p> <p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Shaneyfelt</span>. That is correct.</p> @@ -32430,7 +32391,7 @@ were going to provide but I won't be able to tell you exactly what they did prov and also inform you that I was told that certain police were going to be shifted from one spot to another. I understood that as we went by a certain part of the motorcade some of those police then would be shifted perhaps over -to the motorcade route on the way back in the intervening 1½ or 2 hours that +to the motorcade route on the way back in the intervening 1½ or 2 hours that would still elapse. And I have that in my report if I can turn to it.</p> <p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Stern</span>. Yes; why don't you tell us in total numbers at each location.</p> @@ -37433,7 +37394,7 @@ other one shows the interior portion?</p> <p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Eisenberg</span>. Approximately what enlargements are these, by the way?</p> -<p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Cole</span>. About 1½ diameters.</p> +<p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Cole</span>. About 1½ diameters.</p> <p>Mr. <span class="smcap">Eisenberg</span>. These are what size photographs?</p> @@ -45031,383 +44992,6 @@ by Mr. Stern.</p> <p>Page <a href="#Page_467">467</a>: "harassing his wife in anyway?" probably should be "any way".</p> </div> - - - - - - - -<pre> - - - - - -End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (4 of 26): Hearings -Vol. IV (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V4 *** - -***** This file should be named 44004-h.htm or 44004-h.zip ***** -This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: - http://www.gutenberg.org/4/4/0/0/44004/ - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. 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You may copy it, give it away or -re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included -with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org - - -Title: Warren Commission (4 of 26): Hearings Vol. IV (of 15) - -Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -Release Date: October 19, 2013 [EBook #44004] - -Language: English - -Character set encoding: ASCII - -*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V4 *** - - - - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by -www.history-matters.com. - - - - - - - - - -Transcriber's Note: Stylized "S", "U", and "V" symbols are denoted as -=S=, =U=, and =V=. Italicized words are denoted with _underscores_. - - - - - INVESTIGATION OF - THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - HEARINGS - Before the President's Commission - on the Assassination - of President Kennedy - -PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a -Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating -to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the -subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and -S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon -the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine -witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas - -_Volume_ IV - - -UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE - -WASHINGTON, D.C. - - -U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 - -For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. -Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 - - - - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE - ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY - - - CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_ - - SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL - SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER - REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS - REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD - MR. ALLEN W. DULLES - MR. JOHN J. McCLOY - - - J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_ - - - _Assistant Counsel_ - - FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS - JOSEPH A. BALL - DAVID W. BELIN - WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. - MELVIN ARON EISENBERG - BURT W. GRIFFIN - LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. - ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. - WESLEY J. LIEBELER - NORMAN REDLICH - W. DAVID SLAWSON - ARLEN SPECTER - SAMUEL A. STERN - HOWARD P. WILLENS[A] - -[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the -Department of Justice. - - - _Staff Members_ - - PHILLIP BARSON - EDWARD A. CONROY - JOHN HART ELY - ALFRED GOLDBERG - MURRAY J. LAULICHT - ARTHUR MARMOR - RICHARD M. MOSK - JOHN J. O'BRIEN - STUART POLLAK - ALFREDDA SCOBEY - CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. - - -Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found -in the Commission's _Report_. - - - - -Preface - - -The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume IV: -Sebastian F. Latona, a fingerprint expert with the Federal Bureau of -Investigation; Arthur Mandella, a fingerprint expert with the New -York City Police Department; Paul Morgan Stombaugh, a hair and fiber -expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; James C. Cadigan, a -questioned document examiner with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; -Drs. Robert Roeder Shaw and Charles Francis Gregory, who attended -Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital; Governor and Mrs. John Bowden -Connally, Jr.; Jesse Edward Curry, chief, Dallas Police Department; -Capt. J. W. Fritz and Lts. T. L. Baker and J. C. Day of the Dallas -Police Department, who participated in the investigation of the -assassination; Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt, a photography expert with the -Federal Bureau of Investigation; Robert Inman Bouck, special agent in -charge of the Protective Research Section of the Secret Service; Robert -Carswell, Special Assistant to the Secretary of the Treasury; Winston -G. Lawson, a Secret Service agent who worked on advance preparations -for the President's trip to Dallas; Alwyn Cole, a questioned document -examiner with the Treasury Department; and John W. Fain, John Lester -Quigley, and James Patrick Hosty, Jr., agents of the Federal Bureau of -Investigation who interviewed Oswald, or people connected with him, at -various times during the period between Oswald's return from Russia in -1962 and the assassination. - - - - -Contents - - - Page - Preface v - - Testimony of-- - Sebastian F. Latona 1 - Arthur Mandella, accompanied by Joseph A. Mooney 48 - Paul Morgan Stombaugh 56 - James C. Cadigan 89 - Robert Roeder Shaw 101 - Charles Francis Gregory 117 - Gov. John Bowden Connally, Jr 129 - Mrs. John Bowden Connally, Jr 146 - Jesse Edward Curry 150 - J. W. Fritz 202, 248 - T. L. Baker 248 - J. C. Day 249 - Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt 279 - Robert Inman Bouck 294, 300 - Robert Carswell 299 - Winston G. Lawson, accompanied by Fred B. Smith 317 - Alwyn Cole 358 - John W. Fain 403 - John Lester Quigley 431 - James Patrick Hosty, Jr 440 - - -COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED - - Exhibit No.: Page - 142 15 - 364 93 - 626 3 - 627 6 - 628 6 - 629 6 - 630 7 - 631 7 - 632 7 - 633 8 - 633-A 8 - 634 10 - 634-A 12 - 635 16 - 636 17 - 637 23 - 638 25 - 639 25 - 640 25 - 641 31 - 642 32 - 643 33 - 644 34 - 645 34 - 646 36 - 647 37 - 648 37 - 649 38 - 650 40 - 651 40 - 652 41 - 653 42 - 654 42 - 655 45 - 656 45 - 657 46 - 657-A 46 - 657-B 46 - 657-C 46 - 658 46 - 659 46 - 659-A 46 - 659-B 46 - 660 46 - 661 46 - 662 55 - 663 57 - 664 60 - 665 61 - 666 62 - 667 62 - 668 63 - 669 63 - 670 64 - 671 68 - 672 64 - 673 74 - 674 85 - 675 86 - 676 86 - 677 90 - 678 95 - 679 115 - 680 115 - 681 108 - 682 108 - 683 115 - 684 115 - 685 115 - 686 115 - 687 115 - 688 115 - 689 115 - 690 119 - 691 119 - 692 123 - 693 123 - 694 125 - 695 125 - 696 125 - 697 131 - 698 131 - 699 142 - 700 142 - 701 159 - 702 202 - 703 202 - 704 173 - 705 184 - 706 202 - 707 202 - 708 202 - 709 194 - 710 194 - 711 194 - 712 241 - 713 241 - 714 241 - 715 273 - 716 273 - 717 273 - 718 273 - 719 273 - 720 273 - 721 273 - 722 273 - 723 273 - 724 273 - 725 273 - 726 273 - 727 273 - 728 273 - 729 273 - 730 273 - 731 273 - 732 273 - 733 273 - 734 273 - 735 273 - 736 273 - 737 277 - 738 277 - 739 277 - 740 277 - 741 277 - 742 277 - 743 277 - 744 277 - 745 277 - 746 280 - 747 281 - 748 281 - 749 283 - 750 284 - 751 285 - 752 285 - 753 286 - 754 290 - 755 294 - 760 317 - 761 317 - 762 300 - 763 317 - 764 317 - 765 317 - 766 317 - 767 320 - 768 320 - 769 320 - 770 323 - 771 349 - 772 349 - 773 360 - 774 360 - 775 360 - 776 360 - 777 360 - 778 360 - 779 360 - 780 361 - 781 361 - 782-A 361 - 782-B 361 - 782-C 361 - 783 361 - 784-A 365 - 784-B 365 - 784-C 365 - 785 365 - 786 367 - 787 368 - 788 373 - 789 374 - 790 375 - 791 377 - 792 377 - 793 379 - 794 379 - 795 380 - 796 381 - 797 381 - 798 382 - 799 384 - 800 384 - 801 384 - 802 385 - 803 386 - 804 386 - 805 387 - 806 389 - 807 389 - 808 389 - 809 390 - 810 390 - 811 391 - 812 391 - 813 394 - 814 395 - 815 395 - 816 396 - 817 397 - 818 398 - 819 398 - 820 399 - 820-A 401 - 821 409 - 822 413 - 823 419 - 824 429 - 826 439 - 827 439 - 828 440 - 829 445 - 830 458 - 831 469 - 832 469 - - - - -Hearings Before the President's Commission - -on the - -Assassination of President Kennedy - - - - -_Thursday, April 2, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF SEBASTIAN F. LATONA AND ARTHUR MANDELLA - -The President's Commission met at 9 a.m. on April 2, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale -Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Mr. Allen W. Dulles, members. - -Also present were Melvin Aron Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Norman -Redlich, assistant counsel; Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel; and -Charles Murray and Charles Rhyne, observers. - - -TESTIMONY OF SEBASTIAN F. LATONA - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. - -Mr. Latona, the purpose of today's hearing is to take your testimony -and that of Arthur Mandella. Mr. Mandella is a fingerprint expert from -the New York City Police Department. We are asking both of you to give -technical information to the Commission. - -Will you raise your right hand and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. LATONA. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. Mr. Eisenberg will conduct the -examination. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, could you state your full name and give us -your position? - -Mr. LATONA. My full name is Sebastian Francis Latona. I am the -supervisor of the latent fingerprint section of the identification -division of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is your education, Mr. Latona? - -Mr. LATONA. I attended Columbia University School of Law, where I -received degrees of LL.B., LL.M., M.P.L. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And could you briefly outline your qualifications as a -fingerprint expert? - -Mr. LATONA. Well, I have been with the Federal Bureau of Investigation -for a little more than 32 years. I started in the identification -division as a student fingerprint classifier, and since that time I -have worked myself up into where I am now supervisor of the latent -fingerprint section. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you approximate the number of fingerprint -examinations you have made? - -Mr. LATONA. Frankly, no. There have been so many in that time that I -would not be able to give even a good guess. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would the figure run in the thousands or hundreds? - -Mr. LATONA. So far as comparisons are concerned, in the millions. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you testified in court? - -Mr. LATONA. I have testified in Federal courts, State courts, -commissioners' hearings, military courts, and at deportation -proceedings. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chief Justice, I ask that this witness be accepted -as an expert. - -The CHAIRMAN. The witness is qualified. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, could you briefly outline for us the theory -of fingerprint identification? - -Mr. LATONA. The principle of fingerprint identification is based on -the fact primarily that the ridge formations that appear on the hands -and on the soles of the feet actually are created approximately 2 to 3 -months before birth, on the unborn child, and they remain constant in -the same position in which they are formed until the person is dead and -the body is consumed by decomposition. - -Secondly, the fact that no two people, or no two fingers of the same -person, have the same arrangement of these ridge formations, either on -the fingers, the palms, or the soles and toes of the feet. Plus the -fact that during the lifetime of a person this ridge formation does not -change, it remains constant--from the time it is formed until actual -destruction, either caused by voluntary or involuntary means, or upon -the death of the body and decomposition. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, do you have any personal experience -indicating the uniqueness of fingerprints? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; I do. My experience is based primarily upon the work -which I have actually done in connection with my work with the FBI. I -have had the experience of working on one case in particular in which -millions of comparisons were actually and literally made with a small -portion of a fingerprint which was left on a piece of evidence in -connection with this particular case, which was a kidnapping case. - -This fragmentary latent print which we developed consisted of -approximately seven to eight points. Most fingerprints will have in -them an average roughly of from 85 to about 125. - -This fragmentary latent print was compared with literally millions -of single impressions for the purpose of trying to effect an -identification. And we were unable, over a lengthy period while we were -making these millions of comparisons, not able to identify these few -fragmentary points. - -The important thing is simply this; that on the basis of that -fragmentary print, it was not possible to determine even the type of -pattern that the impression was. Accordingly, we had to compare it with -all types of fingerprint patterns, of which there are really four basic -types--the arch, tented arch, loop, and whorl. And we are still making -comparisons in that case, and we have not been able to identify these -few points. - -Now, that means simply this--that the theory that we are going on an -assumption that people do not have the same fingerprints--and we find -it not necessary to compare, say for example, a loop pattern with a -whorl pattern, and as there is a possibility that, it is contended by -some of these so-called authorities, that maybe the points that you -find in a loop may be found in the same arrangement in a whorl--is not -true. I think that that case, a practical case we have actually worked -on, disproves that theory so strongly in my mind that I am convinced -that no two people can possibly have the same fingerprints. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is, you had a print with seven points, and these -same seven points appeared in none of the millions---- - -Mr. LATONA. Of the millions that we actually compared over a -period--well, since 1937. You may recall the case. It was the Matson -kidnapping case out in Tacoma, Wash. That is one of only three major -kidnapping cases the FBI has not yet solved. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are palmprints as unique as fingerprints? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; palmprints are. They are not as useful for purposes of -setting up a file in order to conduct searches, for the simple reason -that there are not as many variations of patterns occurring with any -frequency in the palms as occur on the tips of the fingers. That is -primarily why the fingertips are used--because you have 10 digits, and -there is a possibility of finding variations of the four basic pattern -types which can be additionally subdivided by utilizing certain focal -points which occur in those particular patterns, which enable us to -actually subdivide our files into millions of groups. Accordingly, when -you make a search in the fingerprint file, it can be reduced actually -to a matter of minutes, whereas to attempt to set up a palmprint file -to the extent of the size of the fingerprint file we have in the FBI -would be a practical impossibility, much less a waste of time. - -The CHAIRMAN. Approximately how many fingerprints do you have these -days? - -Mr. LATONA. At the present time, we have the fingerprints of more than -77 million people, and they are subdivided in this fashion: we have two -main files; we have the criminal files and we have what are referred to -as civil files. - -As the names imply, in the criminal files are the fingerprints of -criminals, people who have had a prior criminal record or whose -fingerprints have been received in connection with an investigation -or interrogation for the commission of a crime. In that file we have -approximately 15 million sets of fingerprint cards, representing -approximately 15 million people. - -In our civil files, in which are filed the fingerprints of the -various types of applicants, service personnel and the like, we have -fingerprints of approximately 62-1/2 million people. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Returning to palmprints, then, as I understand -your testimony, they are not as good as fingerprints for purposes -of classification, but they are equally good for purposes of -identification? - -Mr. LATONA. For purposes of identification, I feel that the -identifications effected are just as absolute as are those of -fingerprints. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are experts unanimous in this opinion, Mr. Latona? - -Mr. LATONA. As far as I know, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Latona, I hand to you an object which I will -describe for the record as being apparently a brown, homemade-type of -paper bag, and which I will also describe for the record as having been -found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building -near the window, the easternmost window, on the south face of that -floor. - -I ask you whether you are familiar with this paper bag? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes, I am. This is a piece of brown wrapping paper that we -have referred to as a brown paper bag, which was referred to me for -purposes of processing for latent prints. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you examined that for latent prints? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted into evidence as -Commission Exhibit 626? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 626 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, do your notes show when you received this -paper bag? - -Mr. LATONA. I received this paper bag on the morning of November 23, -1963. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And when did you conduct your examination? - -Mr. LATONA. I conducted my examination on that same day. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you had received it, could you tell whether any -previous examination had been conducted on it? - -Mr. LATONA. When I received this exhibit, 626, the brown wrapper, it -had been treated with black dusting powder, black fingerprint powder. -There was nothing visible in the way of any latent prints on there at -that particular time. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were you informed whether any fingerprints had been -developed by means of the fingerprint powder? - -Mr. LATONA. No; I determined that by simply examining the wrapper at -that particular time. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you briefly describe the powder process? - -Mr. LATONA. The powdering process is merely the utilizing of a -fingerprint powder which is applied to any particular surface for -purposes of developing any latent prints which may be on such a -surface. - -Now, we use powder in the FBI only on objects which have a hard, -smooth, nonabsorbent finish, such as glass, tile, various types of -highly polished metals, and the like. - -In the FBI we do not use powder on paper, cardboard, unfinished wood, -or various types of cloth. The reason is that the materials are -absorbent. Accordingly, when any finger which has on it perspiration or -sweat comes in contact with an absorbent material, the print starts to -become absorbed into the surface. Accordingly, when an effort is made -to develop latent prints by the use of a powder, if the surface is dry, -the powder will not adhere. - -On the other hand, where the surface is a hard and smooth object, with -a nonabsorbent material, the perspiration or sweat which may have some -oil in it at that time may remain there as moisture. Accordingly, when -the dry powder is brushed across it, the moisture in the print will -retain the powder giving an outline of the impression itself. - -These powders come in various colors. We utilize a black and a gray. -The black powder is used on objects which are white or light to give a -resulting contrast of a black print on a white background. We use the -gray powder on objects which are black or dark in order to give you a -resulting contrast of a white print on a dark or black background. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Latona, how did you proceed to conduct your -examination for fingerprints on this object? - -Mr. LATONA. Well, an effort was made to remove as much of the powder -as possible. And then this was subjected to what is known as the -iodine-fuming method, which simply means flowing iodine fumes, which -are developed by what is known as an iodine-fuming gun--it is a very -simple affair, in which there are a couple of tubes attached to each -other, having in one of them iodine crystals. And by simply blowing -through one end, you get iodine fumes. - -The iodine fumes are brought in as close contact to the surface as -possible. And if there are any prints which contain certain fatty -material or protein material, the iodine fumes simply discolor it to a -sort of brownish color. And of course such prints as are developed are -photographed for record purposes. - -That was done in this case here, but no latent prints were developed. - -The next step then was to try an additional method, by chemicals. This -was subsequently processed by a 3-percent solution of silver nitrate. -The processing with silver nitrate resulted in developing two latent -prints. One is what we call a latent palmprint, and the other is what -we call a latent fingerprint. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you briefly explain the action of the silver nitrate? - -Mr. LATONA. Silver nitrate solution in itself is colorless, and it -reacts with the sodium chloride, which is ordinary salt which is found -in the perspiration or sweat which is exuded by the sweat pores. - -This material covers the fingers. When it touches a surface such as an -absorbent material, like paper, it leaves an outline on the paper. - -When this salt material, which is left by the fingers on the paper, -is immersed in the silver nitrate solution, there is a combining, an -immediate combining of--the elements themselves will break down, and -they recombine into silver chloride and sodium nitrate. We know that -silver is sensitive to light. So that material, after it has been -treated with the silver nitrate solution, is placed under a strong -light. We utilize a carbon arc lamp, which has considerable ultraviolet -light in it. And it will immediately start to discolor the specimen. -Wherever there is any salt material, it will discolor it, much more so -than the rest of the object, and show exactly where the latent prints -have been developed. It is simply a reaction of the silver nitrate with -the sodium chloride. - -That is all it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you frequently find that the silver nitrate develops -a print in a paper object which the iodine fuming cannot develop? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; I would say that is true, considerably so. We have -more success with silver nitrate than we do with the iodine fumes. - -The reason we use both is because of the fact that this material which -is exuded by the fingers may fall into one of two main types--protein -material and salt material. The iodine fumes will develop protein -material. Silver nitrate will develop the salt material. - -The reason we use both is because we do not know what was in the -subject's fingers or hands or feet. Accordingly, to insure complete -coverage, we use both methods. And we use them in that sequence. The -iodine first, then the silver nitrate. The iodine is used first because -the iodine simply causes a temporary physical change. It will discolor, -and then the fumes, upon being left in the open air, will disappear, -and then the color will dissolve. Silver nitrate, on the other hand, -causes a chemical change and it will permanently affect the change. So -if we were to use the silver nitrate process first, then we could not -use the iodine fumes. On occasion we have developed fingerprints and -palmprints with iodine fumes which failed to develop with the silver -nitrate and vice versa. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Latona, looking at that bag I see that almost -all of it is an extremely dark brown color, except that there are -patches of a lighter brown, a manila-paper brown. Could you explain why -there are these two colors on the bag? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. The dark portions of the paper bag are where the -silver nitrate has taken effect. And the light portions of the bag -are where we did not process the bag at that time, because additional -examinations were to be made, and we did not wish the object to lose -its identity as to what it may have been used for. Certain chemical -tests were to be made after we finished with it. And we felt that the -small section that was left in itself would not interfere with the -general overall examination of the bag itself. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is, the small section of light brown corresponds to -the color which the bag had when you received it? - -Mr. LATONA. That is the natural color of the wrapper at the time we -received it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the remaining color is caused by the silver nitrate -process? - -Mr. LATONA. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does paper normally turn this dark brown color when -treated by silver nitrate? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; it does. It will get darker, too, as time goes on and -it is affected by light. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, does the silver nitrate process permanently -fix the print into the paper? - -Mr. LATONA. Permanent in the sense that the print by itself will not -disappear. Now, it can be removed, or the stains could be removed -chemically, by the placing of the object into a 2 percent solution of -mercuric nitrate, which will remove the stains and in addition will -remove the prints. But the prints by themselves, if nothing is done -to it, will simply continue to grow darker and eventually the whole -specimen will lose its complete identity. - -The CHAIRMAN. May I ask a question here? - -So I understand from that that this particular document that you are -looking at, or this bag, will continue to get darker as time goes on? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; it will. - -The CHAIRMAN. From this date? - -Mr. LATONA. That's right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Returning to the prints themselves, you stated I believe -that you found a palmprint and a fingerprint on this paper bag? - -Mr. LATONA. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you find any other prints? - -Mr. LATONA. No; no other prints that we term of value in the sense -that I felt that they could be identified or that a conclusion could -be reached that they were not identical with the fingerprints or -palmprints of some other person. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to identify the palmprint and -fingerprint? - -Mr. LATONA. The ones that I developed; yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were you able to identify these prints? - -Mr. LATONA. I--the ones I developed, I did identify. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Whose prints did you find them to be? - -Mr. LATONA. They were identified as a fingerprint and a palmprint of -Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Latona, what known sample of Lee Harvey -Oswald's prints, finger and palm, did you use in making this -identification? - -Mr. LATONA. The known samples I used were the ones forwarded by our -office at Dallas, the Dallas office. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have those with you? - -Mr. LATONA. I do. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, you have handed me three cards, one of which -appears to be a standard fingerprint card, and the other two of which -appear to be prints of the palms of an individual. All these cards are -marked "Lee Harvey Oswald." - -Are these the cards which you received from your Dallas office which -you just described as being the prints of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. LATONA. They are. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like these admitted into evidence -as 627, 628, and 629. I would like the standard fingerprint card, -10-print card, admitted as 627. - -The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted. - -(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 627 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. I would like the card which is--which appears to be the -left palm admitted as 628. - -The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted. - -(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 628 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. I would like the card which is the right palm admitted -as 629. - -The CHAIRMAN. That may be admitted. - -(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 629 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. LATONA. May I ask a question, please? Would it be possible to -accept copies instead of the originals? - -The CHAIRMAN. They are identical? - -Mr. LATONA. These are true and faithful reproductions of the originals -which Mr. Eisenberg has. - -The CHAIRMAN. The originals, then, may be withdrawn, and the copies -substituted for them. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Shall I mark those 627, 628, and 629 in the same manner -as the originals? - -The CHAIRMAN. Exactly. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, do you know how the known samples we have -just marked 627, 628, and 629 were obtained? - -Mr. LATONA. How they were obtained? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. Can you tell the process used in obtaining them? - -Mr. LATONA. You mean in recording the impressions? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LATONA. Fingerprints are recorded by the use of a printer's ink, -heavy black ink, which is first placed on a smooth surface, such as -glass or metal, and it is rolled out in a smooth, even film. Then -the subject's fingers are brought in contact with the plate by a -rolling process, rolling the finger from one complete side to the -other complete side, in order to coat the finger with an even film of -this heavy ink. Then the finger is brought in contact with a standard -fingerprint card and the finger again is rolled from one complete side -to the opposite side in order to record in complete detail all of the -ridge formation which occurs on the tip of the finger, or the first -joint, which is under the nail. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you received a second submission of known prints? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; we did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When did you receive those? - -Mr. LATONA. Those were received in the identification division on -November 29, 1963. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did this include two palms, or was this simply---- - -Mr. LATONA. No; it did not. It was simply a fingerprint card. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you know why the second submission was made? - -Mr. LATONA. The second submission was made, I believe, in order to -advise us formally that the subject, Lee Harvey Oswald, had been -killed, and it has the notation on the back that he was shot and killed -11-24-63 while being transferred in custody. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And did you examine that second submission? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes, I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And is it in all respects identical to the first? - -Mr. LATONA. The fingerprints appearing on this card are exactly the -same as those that appear on the card which you have previously -referred to as Commission Exhibit 627. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, do you have a copy of the second submission? - -Mr. LATONA. No; I do not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I wonder whether you could supply one to us at a later -date. - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; I could. If you feel it necessary, you can take this -one. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, it is up to you. We will accept a copy. - -The CHAIRMAN. If you wish, you may substitute a copy for it later. - -Mr. LATONA. All right. - -The CHAIRMAN. And then you may withdraw it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I mark that as 630, with the understanding that it -can be substituted for by a copy? - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. - -(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 630 and -received in evidence.) - -(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, could you tell us what portion of the palm -of Lee Harvey Oswald was reproduced on the paper bag, Exhibit 626? - -Mr. LATONA. The portion of the palm which was identified was of the -right palm, and it is a portion which is sometimes referred to as the -heel. It would be the area which is near the wrist on the little-finger -side. I have a photograph here which has a rough drawing on it showing -the approximate area which was identified. - -The CHAIRMAN. Which hand did you say? - -Mr. LATONA. The right hand. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That little finger, is that sometimes called the ulnar -side? - -Mr. LATONA. The ulnar side; yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is this a true photograph made by you? - -Mr. LATONA. This is a true photograph of one of the exhibits you have -received. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is to say, the exhibit showing the right palmprint, -which is marked 629? - -Mr. LATONA. That's correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this photograph admitted into -evidence as 631? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 631 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have another photograph there? - -Mr. LATONA. I have here a photograph which is a slight enlargement of -the latent palmprint developed on the bag. It has a red circle drawn -around it showing the palmprint which was developed. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that a true photograph made by you? - -Mr. LATONA. This is. It is approximately a time-and-a-half enlargement -of the palmprint which I developed on the paper bag. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have that admitted, Mr. Chairman, as 632? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted by that number. - -(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 632 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Having reference to the paper bag, Exhibit 626, Mr. -Latona, could you show us where on that bag this portion of the palm, -the ulnar portion of the palm, of Lee Harvey Oswald was found? - -Mr. LATONA. This little red arrow which I have placed on the paper bag -shows the palmprint as it was developed on the wrapper. - -The CHAIRMAN. Is it visible to the naked eye? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; it is. I think you can see it with the use of this -hand magnifier. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, could you mark that arrow "A"--the arrow you -have just referred to on Exhibit 626, pointing to the portion of the -palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -The CHAIRMAN. What is the number of the exhibit that it is on? - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is 626. - -Mr. LATONA. May I--I tell you, I am going to furnish you a copy of -this, but I cannot make a copy unless I have it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. We can lend it to you for that purpose. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may have it to make the copy. - -Mr. LATONA. And I will send you the copy. Thank you. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I believe you said you also found a fingerprint of -Lee Harvey Oswald on this paper bag, 626. - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us what finger and what portion of the -finger of Lee Harvey Oswald you identified that print as being? - -Mr. LATONA. The fingerprint which was developed on the paper bag was -identified as the right--as the left index fingerprint of Lee Harvey -Oswald. I also have a slight enlargement of it, if you care to see it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are showing us a true photograph of the actual -fingerprint? - -Mr. LATONA. As it appeared on the bag, slightly enlarged. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have that admitted as 633, Mr. Chairman? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 633 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are holding another photograph, Mr. Latona? - -Mr. LATONA. I have here a photograph of the fingerprint card, of the -one which I just took back, and it is actually a true reproduction of -the front of the card. That was Exhibit 630. This one here is a true -reproduction of the front of Exhibit 630. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And have you circled on that, the photograph which you -are holding, the left index finger? - -Mr. LATONA. That's right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And would you show that to the Chief Justice? That is a -true reproduction, Mr. Latona? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I would like that admitted as 633A. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 633A and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. LATONA. Could that take the place of this? - -Mr. EISENBERG. I think our exhibits would be confused. - -Mr. LATONA. Very well. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, what portion of the left index finger was that, Mr. -Latona? - -Mr. LATONA. That is the area which is to the left, or rather to the -right of the index finger. - -Mr. EISENBERG. On which joint? - -Mr. LATONA. On the first joint, which is under the nail. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that known as the distal phalanx? - -Mr. LATONA. That's right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So it is the right side of the distal phalanx of the -left index finger? - -Mr. LATONA. That is correct. Now, that would be looking at an -impression made by the finger. If you were to look at the finger, you -would raise the finger up and it would be on the opposite side, which -would be on the left side of the distal phalanx. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, when we were talking before about the palmprint, -and you said that it was on the right side--you said it was on the -ulnar portion of the palm? - -Mr. LATONA. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that is looking at the palm itself? - -Mr. LATONA. Looking at the palm itself. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I would rather---- - -Mr. LATONA. That would still be the ulnar side when you look at the -print. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Why don't we use ulnar and radial then when we refer -to portions of fingerprints, ulnar referring to the little-finger -side, and radial to the thumb side? So referring to the left index -fingerprint now, that would correspond to the ulnar side of the left -index finger of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. LATONA. That is correct. - -The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, I'm going to leave now to attend a -session of the Court. If you will preside in my absence, Mr. Dulles -will be here in a few moments, and if you are obliged to leave for your -work in the Congress, he will preside until I return. - -(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room and the Chairman -left the hearing room.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, could you show us where on the paper bag, -Exhibit 626, this left index finger was developed by you? - -Mr. LATONA. The left index fingerprint was developed in the area which -is indicated by this small red arrow. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you put a "B" on that arrow to which you are -pointing? Mr. Latona, did you make comparison charts of the known and -latent or the inked and latent palmprints of Lee Harvey Oswald which -you have been referring to as found on this paper bag, 626? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you---- - -Mr. DULLES. Shouldn't you change that question a little bit? I don't -think you should say Lee Harvey Oswald at this point. - -Mr. EISENBERG. He has identified the print as being that of Lee Harvey -Oswald. - -Mr. DULLES. Excuse me. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, could you show us that chart and discuss -with us some of the similar characteristics which you found in the -inked and latent print which led you to the conclusion that they were -identical? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. I have here what are referred to as two charted -enlargements. One of the enlargements, which is marked "Inked Left -Index Fingerprint. Lee Harvey Oswald" is approximately a 10-time -enlargement of the fingerprint which appears on Exhibit 633A. The other -enlargement, which is marked "Latent Fingerprint on Brown Homemade -Paper Container," is approximately a 10-time enlargement of the latent -fingerprint which was developed on the brown wrapping paper indicated -by the red arrow, "B." - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that also corresponds to the photograph you gave us, -which is now Exhibit 633? - -Mr. LATONA. That's correct. - -Representative FORD. And the arrow, "B," is on Exhibit 626? - -Mr. LATONA. That's correct. Now, in making a comparison of prints -to determine whether or not they were made by the same finger, an -examination is made first of all of the latent print. - -An examination is made to see if there are in the latent print any -points or characteristics which are unique to the person making the -determination. In other words, in looking at the latent print, for -example, this point, which is marked "1," is a ridge. The black lines -are what we term ridges. They were made by the ridge formations on the -fingers. That is, when the finger came in contact with the brown paper -bag, it left an outline in these black lines on the brown paper bag. - -Now, in looking at the latent print in the enlargement you notice there -is one black line that appears to go upward and stop at the point which -has been indicated as point No. 1. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, may I interrupt you there for a second. - -Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce this chart, this comparison -chart, as an exhibit. - -Representative FORD. It may be admitted. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be 634. - -(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 634 and was -received in evidence.) - -Mr. LATONA. Looking further we notice---- - -Mr. DULLES. Could I just ask a question about this? This is referring -to Exhibit 634. I want to make sure what line we are talking about. You -are talking about a black line that goes up as though two rivers came -together there, and here is the point where this line stops. - -Mr. LATONA. That's correct. - -Mr. DULLES. No. 1. This is the latent? - -Mr. LATONA. This is the imprint. This is the print on the bag. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. LATONA. The contrast here is not as good as it is here. - -Mr. DULLES. This goes up here, and these two lines come in there, so -there is the point where your black line stops? - -Mr. LATONA. Right at the end of the red line which is marked "1." - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Mr. LATONA. Now, looking further we find this point that has been -indicated as No. 3. And No. 3 is located---- - -Mr. DULLES. Why do you skip 2? - -Mr. LATONA. I am going to come to that. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. - -Mr. LATONA. I am going to tie these three in. Point No. 3 is above and -to the left one ridge removed from--one black line--there is No. 3. Now -looking further, we can look over to the right, or rather to the left, -and we notice that one ridge removed from No. 3 are two ridges that -come together and give you a point which has been indicated as No. 2. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that what you might call a bifurcation? - -Mr. LATONA. That is referred to, generally speaking, as a bifurcation. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is No. 2? - -Mr. LATONA. And No. 1 is what is referred to as a ridge end. - -Now, keeping those three points in mind, and the relationship they have -to each other, if this print here, the inked print, were made by the -same finger which left the print on the brown paper bag, we should be -able to find those three points in the same approximate area, having -the same relationship to each other. - -Now, at this point we have not made a determination of any kind as to -whether they are or are not identical. Examining the inked fingerprint, -bearing in mind the general formation of this print that we see here, -the latent print, we would examine the inked print and that would -direct us to this approximate area here. And looking, we find sure -enough there is point No. 1--or rather there is a point which appears -to be the same as point No. 1 here. Bearing in mind how we located -points Nos. 2 and 3, we would then check the inked print further and -say to ourselves, "If this print were the same, there should be a point -No. 2 in exactly the same relationship to No. 1 as there was in this -latent print." We look over here--one, two, three, four--there is point -No. 2. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That point, or that count that you are making, is of -ridges between the first and second point? - -Mr. LATONA. Between the points, that's right. Then we have over here -one, two, three, four. And bearing in mind again how point No. 3 -bears a relationship to point No. 2, we should find point No. 3 in -the same relative position in the inked print that it occurs in the -latent print. Counting over again--one--we find a point which could be -considered No. 3. - -Now, at this time we have coordinated three points. We have tied -three points together. On that basis, by themselves, we would not -give a definite determination. Accordingly, we would pursue a further -examination to determine whether there are other characteristics which -occur. - -Mr. DULLES. How many times is that magnified? - -Mr. LATONA. This is magnified approximately 10 times. - -Then we would pick up point No. 5. We notice point No. 5 is again one -of those bifurcations which occurs above and slightly to the left of -point No. 3. We also notice that it envelops point No. 1--as we go -down further, slightly to the right of point No. 5, we notice that -bifurcation envelops point No. 1. So we would look around for such a -characteristic in the latent print. - -If the same finger made those two prints, we have to find point 5. And -looking over here we find such a formation, we look at it, and sure -enough it envelops point No. 1--exactly the same relationship to each -other appears in the latent print, and in the inked print. It has the -same relationship to point No. 3 that occurs in the latent print as -occurs in the inked print. Then we would pick up point No. 4--one, two, -three, four. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Again you are counting ridges? - -Mr. LATONA. Counting ridges again, from point No. 5--one, two, three, -four. There is a so-called ridge end, which occurs above, above and -almost slightly to the left of point No. 5, point No. 5 enveloping No. -1. Point No. 5. - -Mr. DULLES. Is 5 a ridge-end? - -Mr. LATONA. Five is what we term a joining, forking, or bifurcation. -These two come together at point 5. Over here, together at point 5. - -Mr. DULLES. Is that where the two ridges come together there and encase -it? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir. From point No. 5 we pick up point No. 7, which is -another one of those so-called bifurcations. One, two, three, four. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Again a ridge count? - -Mr. LATONA. Ridge counting from 5 to 6. That is in the latent print. We -must find the same situation in the inked print. Counting from point -No. 5 the ridges which intervene, one, two, three, and then we count -four, the point itself. There is the bifurcation right here. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, in making these ridge counts, do you also -pay attention to the so-called, let's say, geographical relation, the -spatial relation of the two points? - -Mr. LATONA. Very definitely. Now, it does not always follow that the -so-called geographical position will coincide exactly the same. That -would be caused because of variations in the pressure used when the -print was made. For example, when you make a print on a fingerprint -card: when the inked print was made, the print was made for the -specific purpose of recording all of the ridge details. When the print -was left on the paper bag, it was an incidental impression. The person -was not trying to leave a print. In fact, he probably did not even know -he left one. So the pressure which is left, or the position of the -finger when it made the print, will be a little different. Accordingly -the geographical area of the points themselves will not always -coincide. But they will be in the general position the same. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, without going into detail, there are some -apparent dissimilarities on the two sides of that chart. Can you -explain why there should be apparent dissimilarities? - -Mr. LATONA. The dissimilarities as such are caused by the type of -material on which the print was left, because of the pressure, because -of the amount of material which is on the finger when it left the -print. They would not always be exactly the same. Here again there -appears a material difference in the sense there is a difference in -coloration. This is because of the fact that the contrast in the latent -print is not as sharp as it is in the inked impression, which is a -definite black on white, whereas here we have more or less a brown on a -lighter brown. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Latona, when you find an apparent dissimilarity -between an inked and a latent print, how do you know that it is caused -by absorption of the surface upon which the latent print is placed, or -by failure of the finger to exude material, rather than by the fact -that you have a different fingerprint? - -Mr. LATONA. That is simply by sheer experience. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you say, therefore, that the identification of -a fingerprint is a task which calls for an expert interpretation, as -opposed to a simple point-by-point laying-out which a layman could do? - -Mr. LATONA. Very definitely so; yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How much training does it take before you can make an -identification? - -Mr. LATONA. Well, I cannot tell you exactly how much in terms of time, -insofar as what constitutes an expert. I can simply tell you what we -require of our people before they would be considered experts. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, could you do that? - -Mr. LATONA. We require our people before they would be---- - -Mr. DULLES. This is the FBI? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; this is the FBI. It would be 10 years of practical -work in connection with the classifying and searching and verifying -of regular fingerprint cards which bear all 10 prints. Those prints -would be searched through our main fingerprint files. That means that -that person would have to serve at least 10 years doing that. Of -course, he would have to progress from the mere searching operation -to the operation of being what we call unit supervisor, which would -check--which would be actually the checking of the work of subordinates -who do that work. He would be responsible for seeing that the -fingerprints are properly searched, properly classified. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And how long will he work in the latent fingerprint -section? - -Mr. LATONA. He would have to take an adaptability test, which would -take 3 or 4 days, to determine, first of all, do we feel he has the -qualifications for the job. Then if he passed the adaptability test, -he would receive a minimum of 1 year's personal training in the latent -fingerprint section--which means that he would have to serve at least -11 years in fingerprint work constantly, day in and day out, 8 hours a -day in fingerprint work, before we would consider him as a fingerprint -expert for purposes of testifying in a court of law. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that when you show us this chart, this is actually, -or I should say, is this actually a demonstration, rather than a chart -from which we could make an identification? - -Mr. LATONA. That's right. The purpose is simply a hope on my part -that by my explanation you may have some idea as to how a comparison -is made, rather than for me to prove it to you through these charts, -because unquestionably there are certain points that you will not see -which to me are apparent. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Latona---- - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question? Is this ridge formation, sort of two -ridges coming together, is that one of the most distinctive things you -look for? I note on these charts, Exhibit 634, the various examples you -have given us have been of one type so far. - -Mr. LATONA. Two. - -Mr. DULLES. I did not get the two. I get the two ridges coming -together with sort of the ending of a valley. You were saying there -were two distinctive things. I have only caught so far one distinctive -thing--that is the two ridges coming together in a kind of valley with -no exit. - -Mr. LATONA. Two that come together, like a fork. And the other one was -the one that just ends by itself--does not join. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which is an interrupted ridge? - -Mr. DULLES. I do not get the distinction. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that an interrupted ridge you just described? - -Mr. LATONA. What we call an ending ridge. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Back on the record. Mr. Latona, could you prepare a -diagram which would show some of the characteristics, in broad outline, -which we have been discussing, and have those labeled, and could you -submit that diagram to us at a future date? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; I could. - -Mr. EISENBERG. We will append it to your testimony, so that your -testimony may be more easily followed in the record--with the -permission of the Chairman. - -Representative FORD. It will be prepared and submitted and included in -the record. - -(The item referred to was later supplied and was marked Commission -Exhibit No. 634A.) - -Mr. LATONA. Well, if you could give me your indulgence, I could do it -right here as fast as I did it on the board. - -Representative FORD. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Representative FORD. Back on the record. - -Mr. DULLES. These, I understand, are the particular distinguishing -points, the points that you would look for to determine whether the -latent print---- - -Mr. LATONA. Not so much the looking for the points, as to finding -points having a relationship to each other. It is the relation that is -the important thing, not the point itself. In other words, all of us -would have to a certain extent these points. - -Mr. DULLES. They have to be in the same relation to each other. - -Mr. LATONA. That is correct. For example, on the illustration I have -here---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. This is an illustration on the blackboard. - -Mr. LATONA. The mere fact that this is an ending ridge and bifurcation -and another ending ridge and a dot in themselves mean nothing. This -is a type of pattern which is referred to as a loop, which is very -common. These comprise approximately 65 percent of pattern types. It -has four ridge counts, for example. You can find hundreds of thousands -and millions of four-count loops. But you would not find but one loop -having an arrangement of these characteristics in the relation that -they have. For example, the enclosure is related to this ending ridge. -This ending ridge is related by one ridge removed from the dot. This -bifurcation is next to the so-called core which is formed by a rod, the -ending ridge. - -The points themselves are common. The most common type of points are -the ending ridge and the bifurcation. Those are the two points we have -covered so far. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, I see that you have marked nine -characteristics on your chart. Are these all the characteristics which -you were able to find---- - -Mr. LATONA. On this particular chart; yes. They were the only ones that -bore--actually, there is still one more characteristic--there could -have been 10. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, is there any minimum number of points that has to -be found in order to make an identification, in your opinion? - -Mr. LATONA. No; in my opinion, there are no number of points which are -a requirement. Now, there is a general belief among lots of fingerprint -people that a certain number of points are required. It is my opinion -that this is an erroneous assumption that they have taken, because -of the fact that here in the United States a person that qualifies -in court as an expert has the right merely to voice an opinion as to -whether two prints were made by the same finger or not made. There are -no requirements, there is no standard by which a person can say that a -certain number of points are required--primarily because of the fact -that there is such a wide variance in the experience of men who qualify -as fingerprint experts. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, you said that not all experts are in -agreement on this subject. Is there any substantial body of expert -opinion that holds to a minimum number of points, let's say, 12? - -Mr. LATONA. In the United States, to my knowledge, I know of no group -or body that subscribe to a particular number. Now, quite frequently -some of these departments will maintain a standard for themselves, -by virtue of the fact that they will say, "Before we will make an -identification, we must find a minimum of 12 points of similarity." - -I am quite certain that the reason for that is simply to avoid the -possibility of making an erroneous identification. Now, why they -have picked 12--I believe that that 12-point business originated -because of a certain article which was written by a French fingerprint -examiner by the name of Edmond Locard back in 1917, I think--there -was a publication to the effect that in his opinion where there were -12 points of similarity, there was no chance of making an erroneous -identification. If there were less than 12, he voiced the conclusion -that the chances would increase as to finding duplicate prints. - -Now, today we in the FBI do not subscribe to that theory at all. We -simply say this: We have confidence in our experts to the extent that -regardless of the number of points, if the expert who has been assigned -to the case for purposes of making the examination gives an opinion, -we will not question the number of points. We have testified--I -personally have testified in court to as few as seven points of -similarity. - -Mr. DULLES. But you would not on two, would you? - -Mr. LATONA. No, sir; because I know that two points, even though they -would not be duplicate points, could be arranged in such a fashion that -it might possibly give me the impression that here are two points which -appear to be the same even though they are are not. - -Mr. DULLES. But it is somewhere between two and seven--somewhere in -that range? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. Where that is, I do not know. And I would -not say whether I would testify to six, would I testify to five, would -I refuse to testify to four. - -Mr. DULLES. You say you would--or would you? - -Mr. LATONA. I don't know. That's a question I could not answer. I would -have to see each case individually before I could render a conclusion. - -Now, going outside of the United States, we have been approached--I -mean the FBI--have been approached by other foreign experts in an -attempt to set a worldwide standard of 16 characteristics, a minimum of -16, as opposed to 12, which is generally referred to by people in this -country here. Now of course we would not subscribe to that at all. And -I think---- - -Mr. DULLES. That would be 16 on the fingerprint of the same finger? - -Mr. LATONA. That's right. - -Mr. DULLES. Obviously, if you have two fingers that would alter the -number--if you had three on one and two on the other, would you -consider that five? - -Mr. LATONA. We would. - -Now, whether the foreign experts would not, I don't know. In other -words, if we were to go along with this European theory of 16 points, -we would not testify to this being an identification. That is really -what it would amount to. Yet to me, in my mind, there is no question -that these prints here---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which is what exhibit? - -Mr. LATONA. The enlargements in Exhibit 634--are simply reproductions -of the left index fingerprint of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Representative FORD. There is no doubt in your mind about that? - -Mr. LATONA. Absolutely none at all. The fact that there are only the -nine points charted--and I feel this way, it is purely a matter of -experience. They simply do not have the experience that we have in -the FBI. The FBI has the world's largest practical fingerprint file. -We receive on an average of 23,000 to 25,000 cards a day which are -processed within a 3-day period. - -Mr. DULLES. In a 3-day period? - -Mr. LATONA. In a 3-day period. - -Mr. DULLES. And by processed do you mean they are filed according to -certain characteristics? - -Mr. LATONA. They are. At first they are recorded as having been -received from a particular agency, as to the number that we have -received, as to the type of the card. Then they are checked to see if -the impressions which are on the fingerprint card are complete and -legible, that they are placed in their proper sequence, that is they -are properly classified. - -Then they are checked through our files to see if the person has or has -not a prior criminal record. Then a reply is prepared and forwarded to -the contributor. That is done in a 3-day period. - -Mr. DULLES. How old is the art, roughly? - -Mr. LATONA. Insofar as this country is concerned, I would say back to -1903, when the first fingerprint file for purposes of classification -and filing was set up in this country in New York. - -Mr. DULLES. Did it start in France? - -Mr. LATONA. No. Really, I daresay the English were probably as early as -any, or even down to South America--you have in Argentina the setting -up of fingerprint files as early as 1891. For a long time we never -recognized the fact that Argentina had a fingerprint file. I think it -is primarily because all of the works on fingerprinting were written -in Spanish, and it was just a question of finding somebody to take the -time and effort to translate it into English. - -The French are credited with the so-called Bertillon system, which is a -measurement of the bone structure of the body. Alphone Bertillon was a -French---- - -Mr. DULLES. Didn't Bertillon go into fingerprints later? - -Mr. LATONA. Very reluctantly. He was very reluctant to accept it. He -was a sort of diehard. He felt that his method, the measurement of -certain bones of the body, would not change after a person reached -the adult stage. But we know that that is not true. There is a -change--because of age, disease, dissipation. A person that was -once 6'2" may, because of the fact he is getting older, hump down a -little more and instead of being 6'2" he might be 5'11". Certain bone -structures over the years make certain changes--plus the fact that his -system was not a good system in that certain allowances had to be made -because of the way that people were measured. - -Sometimes one operator might measure the bones of the arm, for example, -too tight, and another too loose. And they used the metric system of -measurement, which in terms of their measuring might sometimes mean -that the same person would not measure the same bone the same way twice. - -We have the celebrated case here which we refer to as the Will West -case, here in the United States, in which a man was sentenced to the -penitentiary in Leavenworth. He was a colored man by the name of Will -West. The operator there, going through the mechanics of taking the -various measurements and his photograph, said, "I see you are back -here again." The man said, "No, this is the first time I have been to -Leavenworth." The operator was certain he had measured and photographed -this man before. He went to check his records and he came up with a -prior record which disclosed a Will West who had practically the same -Bertillon measurements as the man currently being examined. - -He said, "Isn't this you?" And he showed him a picture. He looked at -the picture and recognized the picture as being one of himself. He -said, "Yes, that is me, but I have never been here before." - -They checked the records and found still there in the penitentiary was -another Will West who looked almost exactly like a twin. But they were -not even related. Their features were the same, their measurements were -the same, but then their fingerprints were completely different. - -If they made that error that one time, how many other times could the -same error have been made? And accordingly, we here in the United -States, around 1903--the Bertillon method was slowly put out of use. It -became obsolete. - -Bertillon, before he died, conceded that fingerprints was a good means -of identification, and he very reluctantly conceded that the two -systems, his method and fingerprints together, would be an absolute -means of identification. - -We completely did away with the Bertillon system. In fact, the FBI -never used it. We started our fingerprint work years after all that had -been resolved, back in 1924. - -On July 1, 1924, that is actually when the FBI went into the -fingerprint business. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much. I found that very interesting. - -Representative FORD. Go ahead, Mr. Eisenberg. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, did you also prepare a chart showing a -comparison of the latent and known left-index fingerprint of Lee Harvey -Oswald found on the paper bag, Exhibit 626? - -Mr. LATONA. The left index finger. That is the one we just discussed. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I'm sorry--the right palmprint. - -Mr. LATONA. Right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And before we go any further, I should state for the -record that the exhibit we have been referring to as 626 was earlier -introduced as 142, and it is 142. - -Mr. DULLES. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Also, before we get to the palmprint---- - -Mr. DULLES. Just a moment. It seems to me it would be well to have for -the files of the Commission copies of the earlier fingerprints of Lee -Harvey Oswald that were taken, and the time that they were taken. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I agree, sir. Mr. Latona---- - -Mr. LATONA. Do I understand you are asking---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. I will develop this on the record. - -Mr. Latona, you had earlier submitted to us, and we had marked as an -exhibit, copies of fingerprint cards and two palmprint cards which were -made up by the Dallas police and forwarded to you, received by you from -your Dallas office; is that correct? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, in addition, did the Federal Bureau of -Investigation have in its files prints of Lee Harvey Oswald which it -had received at some earlier date, prior to November 22? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir; I believe there is a Marine Corps print. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would these prints have been taken by the FBI? - -Mr. LATONA. No; they would not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. They were taken by---- - -Mr. LATONA. The regular service. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And forwarded to the FBI? - -Mr. LATONA. That's right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you compare the 10-finger card which you received -from the Dallas office of the FBI and compare it with the Marine -fingerprint card? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were they identical? - -Mr. LATONA. They were the same. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were the palmprints taken by the Marines? - -Mr. LATONA. No; not to my knowledge. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you submit to us a copy of the 10-print card which -you received from the Marine Corps? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; I could. - -Mr. EISENBERG. With the Chairman's permission, that will be appended as -an exhibit to Mr. Latona's testimony. - -Representative FORD. Do you wish to identify it by a number at this -time? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. If we could give it a number in advance of -receiving it, I would like to give it Commission Exhibit No. 635. - -(The item referred to was later supplied and was marked Commission -Exhibit No. 635.) - -Representative FORD. It will be admitted. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether any fingerprints were taken after Lee -Harvey Oswald returned from the Soviet Union? - -Mr. LATONA. Those after he was arrested in connection with this -particular offense. - -Mr. DULLES. Apart from the fingerprints obtained in connection with the -assassination. - -Mr. LATONA. I do not. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you have a right to go to anybody and demand their -fingerprints? - -Mr. LATONA. No. - -Mr. DULLES. Under law? - -Mr. LATONA. No, sir; only persons taken into custody for Federal -violations as such. Now, the FBI has actually no authority at all, -except in cases of making an arrest. - -Mr. DULLES. There is nothing done in connection with the census or -anything of that kind? - -Mr. LATONA. No, sir. Some persons are ordered, by virtue of being -aliens, to be fingerprinted--those that are domiciled here in the -United States must register under the Alien Registration Act. - -Mr. DULLES. And fingerprints then are taken of aliens in connection -with their registration? - -Mr. LATONA. That's right. - -Mr. DULLES. Otherwise there is no general procedure for the taking of -anybody that you may happen to want to take? - -Mr. LATONA. The Services, of course, require it. Applicants for certain -positions are required by law. For example, all civil service, Federal -civil service applicants must be fingerprinted. Locally, there are -certain local cases. For example a man may in some localities, if he -even applies for a chauffeur's license, has to be fingerprinted. If he -desires a gun permit, he has to be fingerprinted. In some places, if he -applies for certain jobs he must be fingerprinted. - -Mr. DULLES. As I recall, I gave a fingerprint when I got my automobile -license. Is that general throughout the United States? - -Mr. LATONA. What State was that? - -Mr. DULLES. Here in the District. Didn't I give that? - -Mr. LATONA. No, sir. To my knowledge, there are none that require -it--fingerprinting--for an automobile license. In California I believe -it is voluntary--to place the finger, if you desire to, on your card. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, Exhibit 630, which is one of the known -10-print cards submitted by the Dallas office, is marked "Refused -to sign" in the box with the printed caption "Signature of person -fingerprinted." Do you recall whether Lee Harvey Oswald signed the -Marine Corps card? - -Mr. LATONA. Offhand, I do not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I think it would be interesting, for the record, to see -if that is signed, and, of course, as we read the record and get the -card, we will be able to note that information. - -We were discussing whether you had made a chart of the known and latent -right palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald found on Exhibit 142, as I will -refer to it from now on. - -Mr. LATONA. I believe I have already furnished you smaller photographs. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; you have. Those have been marked into evidence. - -Mr. LATONA. This is the inked--the right inked palmprint, a photograph -of the right inked palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You say "this." Can you identify that exhibit? It is 631. - -I am handing you Exhibit 632. - -Mr. LATONA. Exhibit 632 is approximately a time and a half enlargement -of the latent palmprint which was developed on the brown wrapper. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is Exhibit 142. - -Mr. LATONA. Exhibit 142--which is indicated by the red arrow A. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you prepare this chart, Mr. Latona? - -Mr. LATONA. Not personally, no. This was made under my personal -direction and supervision. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And is it an accurate reproduction of the known and -latent prints which were earlier introduced into evidence? - -Mr. LATONA. It is. It is a true and faithful reproduction of these -areas, enlarged to approximately eight times the originals. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this introduced into evidence as 636, Mr. -Chairman? - -Representative FORD. It will be introduced. - -(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 636 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask whether this was discovered immediately after the -assassination--at what time did you discover this particular palmprint? - -Mr. LATONA. It was on the 23d of November, the day after. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Using this chart, 636, Mr. Latona, could you demonstrate -to us some of the points which led you to the conclusion that the -latent palmprint on 142 was the palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. LATONA. The procedure in making this comparison was exactly -the same as the procedure followed in connection with making the -prior examination of the fingerprint. Now, the area which shows -in approximately an eight-time enlargement, and is marked "Latent -Palmprint Developed on Brown Homemade Paper Container," which is -Exhibit 636, is roughly outlined on Commission Exhibit 631 in red, -which is a photograph of the inked right palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -This area below the little finger, or what we referred to as the ulnar -portion of the palm--now, in making the examination or comparison, -here again--first of all I would like to point out that there is a -black line that goes right through--in an upward fashion--through the -enlargement of the latent fingerprint. That line is caused by virtue of -the fact that the palmprint which is developed is partially on a piece -of tape as well as the wrapper itself. In other words, a part of the -print is on a piece of tape and the other part is on the paper itself. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, could you show how the palm lay on the paper -to produce that impression? - -Mr. LATONA. The palm lay in this fashion here. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are putting your right hand on the paper so that the -fingers are pointing in the same direction as the arrow A? - -Mr. LATONA. That's right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And it is at approximately right angles to the paper bag? - -Mr. LATONA. That's right. - -Here again, in making the comparison, a check is made for the location -of certain points. - -Now, we notice here that the points appear to be much closer than they -were in the fingerprint, and that is probably because of the pressure -which was exercised, possibly in holding the object which was in this -paper container. - -Now, you notice this point No. 1 here, which we term the ending ridge. -Point No. 2 is also an ending ridge. And you notice in between these -points there is a ridge. Point No. 2 is to the left of point No. 1. - -Then we find there is a point No. 3 which is a point which is similar -in character to point No. 2 and is almost directly below, but there -are two intervening ridges. Then there is a point No. 4 which is below -point No. 3, and going in a direction opposite from point No. 3. - -If we bear those four points in mind--and if the latent palmprint was -made by the same palm that made the inked palmprint--then we should -find these four points in that position over there. - -Now, in order to first of all find the particular area where we -would look to see if those points exist, we would bear in mind the -general formation of the print itself. We notice the so-called looping -formation in the inked print. We see that there is a looping formation -here. Definitely it is not as pronounced in the latent print as it is -in the inked print. But to the experienced eye, it is right here. - -Accordingly, bearing in mind where these points would occur, we would -generalize in the area to the extreme right of the enlargement, and -find that there is a point which is somewhat similar to the point which -appears in the inked impression, which momentarily we would say appears -to be the same point as No. 1. - -Now, bearing in mind how No. 2 is related to point No. 1, does such a -point appear in the latent print? And making the check, exactly in the -same fashion and relationship that occurred in the inked print, we find -that there is such a point. - -Does a third point appear in the same relationship to point No. 2 as it -appears in the inked print? - -Counting down one, two, and then the three point being the point -itself. And in the same general flowing direction we count here, one, -two, three--there it is. - -Bearing in mind again that we found point No. 4 is what we refer to as -a bifurcation going in the opposite direction from No. 3, which was -directly below and to the left, do we find such a point here? Sure -enough, there it is. - -Now, an additional test would be this: At this point here we notice -there is an abrupt ending of a ridge at this point here. It was not -even charted. The fact is, it also occurs here. You see this point -here, through which there is no line drawn, here it is right here---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are pointing above 4? - -Mr. LATONA. Directly above 4 to a ridge going--what we term flowing to -the right. Now, at this point here, to a fingerprint examiner of any -experience at all, he would start saying these prints were probably -made by the same fellow. To satisfy himself, he would continue to point -No. 5--one, two, three, four--there is point No. 5. Then there is No. -6, and there is No. 6 here, having exactly the same relationship to -each other. - -On the basis of those six points alone, I would venture the opinion -that these palmprints were made by the same person. But for purposes -of carrying it out further, here is point No. 7. Point No. 7 is -obliterated to a certain degree to the inexperienced eye by virtue of -the fact that it almost coincides with that line there. You probably do -not see that. - -And here is point No. 8, which is related to point No. 7 by the -separation of those ridges in the same way. One, two, three, four--one, -two, three, four. In its relationship to No. 9 here--just above and to -the left, flowing in the same general direction. Here it is here. - -Then your point No. 10, which is tied into point No. 11 in this fashion -here, and 12 and 13. All of them have the same relationship insofar as -the intervention of ridges is concerned, the same general area, plus -the fact that they all flow in the same general direction. - -Picking up No. 14, which is going upward, to point No. 15, which stands -out rather easily--15 here. To throw in just one point extra--see this -little point here, that ends here? - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is to the upper right of 15? - -Mr. LATONA. To the right and upward of 15. - -Mr. DULLES. So you really have 16 points there? - -Mr. LATONA. Actually, there are more than that in here, which I have -not even bothered to chart. The opinion here, without any question at -all, this latent print, which was developed on the brown bag marked -"A"--142--was made by the right palm of Lee Harvey Oswald. And in my -opinion, this identification is absolute. There is no question at all -that only the right palm of Lee Harvey Oswald made this print, or could -have made it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are there any further questions on the prints appearing -on this bag? - -Representative FORD. Mr. Murray? - -Mr. MURRAY. May I suggest this, Mr. Chairman? Since the print on the -bag may become obliterated, and since members of the Commission have -already seen it, it might be advisable to put on the record that they -have seen it, because in time to come it may not be visible to anybody. - -Representative FORD. Well, I for one would be willing to state that I -have personally seen that fingerprint through a glass on the bag--both -the finger and the palm. - -Mr. DULLES. I would be glad to concur that I also have seen the -fingerprint and the palmprint to which Congressman Ford refers. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In that general connection, Mr. Latona, do you commonly -make your fingerprint identifications on the basis of the object on -which the latent print appears, or on the basis of a photograph of that -object? - -Mr. LATONA. Normally it is made on the basis of photographs. We work -more or less like an assembly-line basis, and we do not have the time -or the opportunity to work from the originals, as was done in this -case--this being quite an exceptional case. So the usual identification -would be made--this was made on the basis of the bag itself, rather -than to wait and get finished photographs from our photographic -laboratory. - -If I recall correctly, this was on a Saturday--the 23d? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; it was. - -Mr. LATONA. We did not have our full staff there. We were called in to -handle this case specially. There were no photographers available at -that time for that particular purpose. Frankly, under the circumstances -it would not have made any difference whether they were available -or not. This had a priority over everything we were working on and -naturally we had to proceed as fast as we could, in a sense, to render -conclusions and opinions at that time. - -Accordingly, the original comparisons were made directly from the -wrapper, rather than a photograph, which was prepared subsequently to -this. - -Representative FORD. The suggestion has been made, Mr. Murray, that -perhaps you would like to look at that palmprint and the fingerprint on -the wrapping, and you might make a statement the same as Mr. Dulles and -I have made. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you point out to Mr. Murray, Mr. Latona, the two -prints? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir. "A" is the fingerprint. - -Mr. DULLES. And the witness certifies that these are true photographs -of the fingerprint and the palmprint that you have exhibited? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. MURRAY. May I say for the record, Mr. Chairman, that I definitely -and clearly saw what appeared to me to be a palmprint in the part of -Exhibit 142 which was designated with a "B," and less clearly, but -nevertheless I did see, the fingerprint on the other portion of the bag. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona---- - -Mr. LATONA. "B" is the finger, and "A" is the palm. - -Mr. MURRAY. Yes; that's correct. And the palm "A"--there I definitely -saw what appeared to be a palmprint, and more faintly I saw a -fingerprint in the portion marked "B." - -Mr. DULLES. And these are exhibits---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. This is Exhibit 142. - -(At this point Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. DULLES. Both the palmprint and the fingerprint are on Exhibit 142. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes--marked "A" and "B" respectively. - -Mr. Latona, one further question on this subject. When you testify in -court, do you frequently testify on the basis of the photographs rather -than the original object? - -Mr. LATONA. If the originals are available, I would prefer that they be -brought into court. If they are not, then photographs are used--plus -the original negative of the latent prints which were photographed. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Latona, I hand you Commission Exhibit 139 -which, for the record, consists of the rifle found on the sixth floor -of the TSBD building, and which was identified yesterday as the -rifle--and the day before yesterday--as the rifle which fired the fatal -bullets, and I ask you whether you are familiar with this weapon? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; I am. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And did you examine this weapon to test--did you examine -this weapon to determine whether there were any identifiable latent -fingerprints on it? - -Mr. LATONA. I examined the weapon to determine whether there were any -identifiable latent prints on the weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When did you receive the weapon? - -Mr. LATONA. On the morning of November 23, 1963. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And when did you proceed to make your examination? - -Mr. LATONA. I proceeded to make my examination that same day that I -received it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us what techniques you used? - -Mr. LATONA. Well, the technique that I used first was simply to -examine it visually under a magnifying glass, a hand magnifying glass, -primarily for the purpose of seeing, first of all, whether there were -any visible prints. I might point out that my attention had been -directed to the area which we refer to as the trigger guard on the left -side of the weapon, Commission Exhibit 139. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The trigger-guard area? - -Mr. LATONA. The trigger-guard area. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which actually, in the case of this particular weapon, -is the area in which the magazine is inserted at the top; is that -correct? You are looking at the weapon now, and the magazine comes out -the bottom of what is called the trigger-guard area, which would be a -trigger guard on another weapon. - -Mr. LATONA. That's correct. There had been placed over that area a -piece of cellophane material. My attention had been directed to it, to -the effect that a prior examination had been made of that area, and -that there were apparently certain latent prints available--visible -under that area. - -I first examine most prints to see---- - -Mr. DULLES. Who placed the cellophane material there, in your opinion? - -Mr. LATONA. Well, I was told--my information was simply that the Dallas -Police Department had done so. I have no personal knowledge as to who -did it, other than information that the Dallas Police had examined the -weapon and they had found these visible marks on there, that they had -developed the prints. - -Now, by what means they did it, I do not know, but I would assume they -used a gray powder. - -Mr. DULLES. What was the purpose of putting the cellophane there? - -Mr. LATONA. To protect the prints while the rifle was intransit to the -FBI. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, when you received it with the cellophane cover, -what portion did it cover? - -Mr. LATONA. Closest to the trigger area. - -Mr. EISENBERG. On the trigger guard, closest to the trigger area? - -Mr. LATONA. That's right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was that on the right or left side of the weapon? - -Mr. LATONA. Left side. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And was there a print visible to you underneath the -cellophane? - -Mr. LATONA. I could see faintly ridge formations there. However, -examination disclosed to me that the formations, the ridge formations -and characteristics, were insufficient for purposes of either effecting -identification or a determination that the print was not identical -with the prints of people. Accordingly, my opinion simply was that the -latent prints which were there were of no value. - -Now, I did not stop there. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Before we leave those prints, Mr. Latona, had those been -developed by the powder method? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; they had. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was that a gray powder? - -Mr. LATONA. I assumed that they used gray powder in order to give them -what little contrast could be seen. And it took some highlighting and -sidelighting with the use of a spotlight to actually make those things -discernible at all. - -Representative FORD. As far as you are concerned. - -Mr. LATONA. That's right. - -Mr. DULLES. Is is likely or possible that those fingerprints could have -been damaged or eroded in the passage from Texas to your hands? - -Mr. LATONA. No, sir; I don't think so. In fact, I think we got the -prints just like they were. There had, in addition to this rifle and -that paper bag, which I received on the 23d--there had also been -submitted to me some photographs which had been taken by the Dallas -Police Department, at least alleged to have been taken by them, of -these prints on this trigger guard which they developed. I examined the -photographs very closely and I still could not determine any latent -value in the photograph. - -So then I took the rifle personally over to our photo laboratory. -In the meantime, I had made arrangements to bring a photographer in -especially for the purpose of photographing these latent prints for -me, an experienced photographer--I called him in. I received this -material in the Justice Building. My office of operations is in the -Identification Division Building, which is at 2d and D Streets SW. So -I made arrangements to immediately have a photographer come in and see -if he could improve on the photographs that were taken by the Dallas -Police Department. - -Well, we spent, between the two of us, setting up the camera, looking -at prints, highlighting, sidelighting, every type of lighting that we -could conceivably think of, checking back and forth in the darkroom--we -could not improve the condition of these latent prints. - -So, accordingly, the final conclusion was simply that the latent print -on this gun was of no value, the fragments that were there. - -After that had been determined, I then proceeded to completely process -the entire rifle, to see if there were any other prints of any -significance or value--any prints of value--I would not know what the -significance would be, but to see if there were any other prints. I -completely covered the rifle. I also had a firearms man---- - -Representative BOGGS. What do you cover it with? - -Mr. LATONA. Gray fingerprint powder. - -Representative BOGGS. What is that powder? - -Mr. LATONA. It is usually a combination of chalk and mercury, or -possibly white lead and a little bit of resin material to give it some -weight. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you testified earlier that that adheres---- - -Mr. LATONA. To the moisture that was left by the finger, the fingers or -the hands, when it came in contact with the surface. - -Representative BOGGS. How long will that condition remain? - -Mr. LATONA. Going from one extreme to the other, it may remain for -years; under other circumstances, it may not even last for 15 or 20 -minutes. - -Representative BOGGS. Why the difference? - -Mr. LATONA. Because of the amount of material which was left and the -condition of the material which was left. Basically, the material may -be made up of protein material and salt and water--primarily water. If -it is totally water, with very little salt or oily material, when the -evaporation is effected, then it is complete--there will be nothing -left. - -Representative BOGGS. You mean that it is gone? - -Mr. LATONA. Right. On the other hand, if there is an oily matter there, -we know that latent prints will last literally for years on certain -objects. - -Representative BOGGS. Well, just for purposes of information, if I make -fingerprints there on the table, how long would they normally last? - -Mr. LATONA. I don't know. - -Representative BOGGS. Well, would there be any way to know? - -Mr. LATONA. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. It depends on temperature, on the amount of moisture -involved? - -What does it depend on? - -Mr. LATONA. First of all, I saw him touch it, but I am not even sure he -left a print there. - -Representative BOGGS. Well, I can see it. - -Mr. LATONA. As to the quality of the print, there again it is simply a -matter of what material you have in your hands that made that print, as -to how long it will last, how long it will take for it to evaporate. - -Actually, when it dries out, it may, in itself, leave a print with such -clarity that it would not--even though it would not accept the powder, -still by highlighting it, the way you did to see that the print was -there, we could photograph it so it would come out just as clear as -though it were black on white. - -Representative BOGGS. Does the material that one touches have any -effect? - -Mr. LATONA. Very definitely. It depends on how hard or smooth the -material is. - -Representative BOGGS. Now, does a weapon lend itself to retaining -fingerprints? - -Mr. LATONA. This particular weapon here, first of all, in my opinion, -the metal is very poorly finished. It is absorbent. Believe it or not, -there is a certain amount of absorption into this metal itself. It is -not finished in the sense that it is highly polished. - -Representative BOGGS. So this would be conducive to getting a good -print, or would it? - -Mr. LATONA. It would not. - -Representative BOGGS. I see--because it would absorb the moisture. - -Mr. LATONA. That's right. Now, there are other guns--for example, -Smith and Wesson, which have exceptionally nice finishes, the blue -metal finishes are better surfaces for latent prints. Where you have a -nickel-plated or silver-plated revolvers, where it is smooth--they are -much more conducive to latent prints than some of these other things, -say like the army type, the weapons used in wartime that are dull, to -avoid reflection--things of that type--they are not as good. - -Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you would like to look at the fingerprints we -have gone over. They are quite apparent there with the glass. - -Representative BOGGS. I would like to look at them. That is all I want -to ask right at the moment. - -Mr. DULLES. I would like to ask a general question. - -Mr. LATONA (addressing Representative Boggs). This is one of the -fingerprints developed on the brown wrapper. It is this print here. - -Mr. DULLES. You can see these prints quite clearly, and the palmprint. - -Representative BOGGS. This is a photograph of that? - -Mr. LATONA. This is approximately a time and a half enlargement. This -is the left index finger. Here is the palmprint that was developed. - -Representative FORD. Mr. Boggs--each of us here, Mr. Dulles, Mr. -Murray, and myself, have said on the record that we have seen the -prints on the wrapping. We did this because, as Mr. Latona has -indicated, such prints may disappear over a period of time. We thought -it might be well for the record to indicate that we saw them. If you -wish to do the same---- - -Representative BOGGS. I would like to do the same, having just seen it. - -Mr. DULLES. The witness has certified to the fact that these are true -photographs of the prints that we have seen. - -Representative BOGGS. And the witness has also certified that those are -Oswald's prints? - -Mr. LATONA. No; I cannot certify to that. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you want to explain that? - -Mr. LATONA. As I am not the one that fingerprinted Oswald, I cannot -tell from my own personal knowledge that those are actually the -fingerprints of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But you can certify that those prints are identical with -the prints on the card which bears the name of Lee Harvey Oswald which -was furnished to you? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. We will get other evidence in the record at a subsequent -time to show those were the prints of Oswald. Mr. Latona, you were -saying that you had worked over that rifle by applying a gray powder to -it. Did you develop any fingerprints? - -Mr. LATONA. I was not successful in developing any prints at all on the -weapon. I also had one of the firearms examiners dismantle the weapon -and I processed the complete weapon, all parts, everything else. And no -latent prints of value were developed. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does that include the clip? - -Mr. LATONA. That included the clip, that included the bolt, it included -the underside of the barrel which is covered by the stock. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were cartridge cases furnished to you at that time? - -Mr. LATONA. They were, which I processed, and from which I got no -prints. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Therefore, the net result of your work on Exhibit 139 -was that you could not produce an identifiable print? - -Mr. LATONA. That's correct. - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask one question? Does the Secret Service do -fingerprinting work, or do they turn it over to you--turn to you for -all of that? - -Mr. LATONA. I think they do some of their own, and on occasion we -will do some for them, too. Primarily I think they do their own. I am -not too familiar with the Secret Service as to how elaborate their -laboratory is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So as of November 23, you had not found an identifiable -print on Exhibit 139? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you a small white card marked with certain -initials and with a date, "11-22-63." There is a cellophane wrapping, -cellophane tape across this card with what appears to be a fingerprint -underneath it, and the handwriting underneath that tape is "off -underside of gun barrel near end of foregrip C 2766," which I might -remark parenthetically is the serial number of Exhibit 139. I ask you -whether you are familiar with this item which I hand you, this card? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; I am familiar with this particular exhibit. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe to us what that exhibit consists of, -that item rather? - -Mr. LATONA. This exhibit or this item is a lift of a latent palmprint -which was evidently developed with black powder. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And when did you receive this item? - -Mr. LATONA. I received this item November 29, 1963. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Before we go any further may I have this admitted into -evidence? - -Representative FORD. It will be. What is the number? - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be No. 637. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 637, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, could you describe to us what a lift is? - -Mr. LATONA. A lift is merely a piece of adhesive material which is used -for purposes of removing a print that has been previously developed -on an object, onto the adhesive material. Then the adhesive material -is placed on a backing, in this case which happens to be the card. -The adhesive material utilized here is similar to scotch tape. There -are different types of lifting material. Some of them are known as -opaque lifters, which are made of rubber, like a black rubber and white -rubber, which has an adhesive material affixed to it, and this material -is simply laid on a print which has been previously developed on an -object and the full print is merely removed from the object. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say "the print" is removed, actually the -powder---- - -Mr. LATONA. The powder that adhered to the original latent print is -picked off of the object. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that the impression actually is removed? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Representative FORD. Is that a recognized technique? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; it is. - -Representative FORD. In the fingerprinting business? - -Mr. LATONA. It is very common, one of the most common methods of -recording latent prints. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Who did you get this exhibit, this lift from? - -Mr. LATONA. This lift was referred to us by the FBI Dallas office. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And were you told anything about its origin? - -Mr. LATONA. We were advised that this print had been developed by the -Dallas Police Department, and, as the lift itself indicates, from the -underside of the gun barrel near the end of the foregrip. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, may I say for the record that at a subsequent point -we will have the testimony of the police officer of the Dallas police -who developed this print, and made the lift; and I believe that the -print was taken from underneath the portion of the barrel which is -covered by the stock. Now, did you attempt to identify this print which -shows on the lift Exhibit 637? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you succeed in making identification? - -Mr. LATONA. On the basis of my comparison, I did effect an -identification. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And whose print was that, Mr. Latona? - -Mr. LATONA. The palmprint which appears on the lift was identified by -me as the right palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Latona, as I understand it, on November 23, -therefore, the FBI had not succeeded in making an identification of -a fingerprint or palmprint on the rifle, but several days later by -virtue of the receipt of this lift, which did not come with the weapon -originally, the FBI did succeed in identifying a print on Exhibit 139? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which may explain any inconsistent or apparently -inconsistent statements, which I believe appeared in the press, as to -an identification? - -Mr. LATONA. We had no personal knowledge of any palmprint having been -developed on the rifle. The only prints that we knew of were the -fragmentary prints which I previously pointed out had been indicated -by the cellophane on the trigger guard. There was no indication on -this rifle as to the existence of any other prints. This print which -indicates it came from the underside of the gun barrel, evidently the -lifting had been so complete that there was nothing left to show any -marking on the gun itself as to the existence of such--even an attempt -on the part of anyone else to process the rifle. - -Mr. DULLES. Do I understand then that if there is a lifting of this -kind, that it may obliterate---- - -Mr. LATONA. Completely. - -Mr. DULLES. The original print? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that you personally, Mr. Latona, did not know -anything about a print being on the rifle which was identifiable until -you received, actually received the lift, Exhibit 637? - -Mr. LATONA. On the 29th of November. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Seven days after the assassination. - -And in the intervening period, correspondingly, the FBI had no such -knowledge? - -Mr. LATONA. As far as I know. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, could you tell us what portion of the palm -of Lee Harvey Oswald you identified that print as being? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. Here again I have a photograph that will show the -approximate area involved, which is on the ulnar side of the lower -portion of the palm. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The ulnar---- - -Mr. LATONA. Down near the base of the palm toward the wrist. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This is the right palm? - -Mr. LATONA. The right palm. - -Mr. EISENBERG. As it was in the case of the paper bag, Exhibit 142? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you display that photograph, please? This is a -photograph which you took of the inked print which was furnished to you -by the Dallas office? - -Mr. LATONA. I didn't personally prepare the photographs. They were -prepared at my personal direction. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was it prepared under your supervision? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is it an accurate reproduction? - -Mr. LATONA. It is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as 638? - -Representative FORD. It shall be admitted. - -(The photograph referred to was marked as Commission Exhibit No. 638, -and received in evidence.) - -Mr. LATONA. I might point out that you have the original of this which -has been previously admitted. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; but this photograph shows a red circle around the -portion which you identified---- - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. As being the latent found on the lift, is that right? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -(The reporter read the last question.) - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, now you are showing me another photograph -which appears to be a photograph of the lift itself, Exhibit 637, but -an enlargement thereof? - -Mr. LATONA. Slightly enlarged; yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was this prepared by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. LATONA. It was. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And there is a red circle around this, on this -photograph, that is around the print, the latent print? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this photograph admitted as 639? - -Representative FORD. It shall be admitted. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 639, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, did you also prepare a chart showing an -enlarged portion of the inked and latent palmprint? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Illustrating some of the points which you used in making -your identification? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was this chart prepared by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. LATONA. This was prepared under my direct supervision. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 640? - -Representative FORD. It shall be admitted. - -(The chart referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 640, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is the enlargement of this chart? - -Mr. LATONA. Approximately an eight-time enlargement of the latent print -which appears on the lift, Commission Exhibit---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. 637? - -Mr. LATONA. 637. And the inked right palmprint enlargement is -approximately eight times an enlargement of the Exhibit 638. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The inked print? - -Mr. LATONA. Which is encircled in red, a portion of that area. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I wonder whether you could put that up on this easel -here so that we can all see it, and explain to us some of the points -which led you to your conclusion. - -Mr. LATONA. Here again the approach insofar as making a comparison -is concerned is exactly the same. That never changes. In making a -comparison of fingerprints or palmprints, the mechanics are exactly the -same. - -First to look for what might be considered as points which are easy to -see to the fingerprint man. - -Representative FORD. May I ask first was the lift a good print for -technical purposes? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; to the extent that the identification was made. There -is no question as to the identity. - -Now, insofar as quality is concerned, I believe that is what you have -in mind, we don't, in fingerprint circles, don't say that this is a -good latent as compared to a bad latent. If it is valuable for purposes -of identification, so far as we are concerned it is good. - -Now, that may not appear to the inexperienced eye possibly as being as -clear as some of those others which you have already seen, but for the -purpose of identification the points are here. That is the main thing. - -Now, in making the comparison here it is easy to see the inked print. -There is very little question here. This print was made on purpose for -purposes of recording the ridges. This was made more or less incidental -or possibly accidental. - -Mr. DULLES. How does the left one differ? I thought you told us before -it was 10 times. - -Mr. LATONA. No; those were the others. - -Mr. DULLES. That was the fingerprint that was 10 times? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. And the palm has always been eight times? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right, because of the fact to make it 10 times it -would have been enlarged to the extent that maybe you wouldn't be able -to see the significance as to what it purports to be. - -If you enlarge a fingerprint too much, it loses its identity. I have -seen them where they were enlarged so big that you couldn't tell what -they were, and if somebody would tell you it is a fingerprint you would -say, if you say so it is, but it doesn't look like it to me. - -Now, in some other sciences, for example, like handwriting and things -of that kind, you can enlarge them pretty good size, typewriting and -things of that type, but a fingerprint because of the poorness in -contrast plus the fact that in themselves these black marks have no -particular significance, they might lose their identity, you won't -reconcile a palmprint with a palmprint. - -So, actually for purposes of making comparisons we never make a -comparison from an enlargement. The best way to make a comparison, the -more complete, is to make it from the actual size, utilizing a regular -fingerprint glass which enlarges approximately four diameters. - -We would never think of enlarging the prints for purposes of making our -initial comparison. We make them on the basis of the actual size, just -like you see it here, utilizing a fingerprint, which gives you a better -picture. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Fingerprint glass, you mean? - -Mr. LATONA. Fingerprint glass, because you get a much better view of -the impression than you do where it is enlarged because in enlarging -you have a tendency to distort the dissimilarities, to exaggerate what -may be considered as dissimilarities. - -Now, looking at these marks here again, which are very apparent here in -the ink print, this No. 1 which is a black line which flows over to -the right, then one ridge directly below it and off to the left is this -point No. 2. Then by counting down 1, 2, 3, 4 we come to this portion, -a short-ending ridge, which is similar to this short-ending ridge in -the illustration drawn on the board, is No. 3. - -Now, here again the fingerprintman simply mentally says to himself, "If -these palmprints were made by the same palm I should be able to find -three such points in approximately the same area of this palmprint as -was found here." - -The manner of isolating the area is by virtue of the fact that you see -this looping formation, the looping formation is right in here, rather -vague but it is there. - -Looking in that approximate area, you notice faintly this black line -that comes over to this area and stops at the point there. Now, is this -point No. 1 the same as this point No. 1? If it is, then there should -be a point No. 2 in the latent print which is in the same relative -position as point No. 2 occurs in the ink print. By looking in such a -position by this one ridge removed and to the left, there is this point -No. 2. - -Then looking down to point No. 3, we notice one, two, three, four, -there is this so-called short-ending ridge which to me shows up very -clearly here in the enlargement of the latent print. - -Point No. 4 is this black line which is coming toward point No. 3, and -right within the same area or line, there is point No. 4. - -Point No. 5 is picked up in this position over here, which is another -one of these short-ending ridges. It is removed by one ridge or rather -to the left of point No. 6 as is seen here. - -Then we pick up point No. 7, which is this point showing a cluster of -ridge formation here. - -Point No. 8 is tied in. You can tie in point No. 8 to point No. 4, -point No. 5 to point No. 7, and that coincides with point No. 8 here. -In that way we pick up point No. 9, showing the relationship of one, -two, three and over here one, two, three, always the same formation, -the same general area, the same relationship to each other. In that way -we pick up point No. 10, point No. 11, and point No. 12, which have -exactly the same formation. - -Here is point No. 10 coming this way, point No. 11 going that way, -these two ridges are in between. It checks perfectly. The same way with -point No. 12 which is just below point No. 11, and having the same -relationship to point No. 10, the same general areas, identically the -same type of characteristics, and exactly the same relationship to each -other. - -On the basis of those points, the obvious conclusion to an experienced -fingerprintman is simply that the same palm made both of these prints. -Only one palm could have made it, and that palm is the one which is -alleged to be of Lee Harvey Oswald, his right palm. - -Representative BOGGS. Is it true that every fingerprint of each -individual on earth is different? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir; that is my sincere belief. I say that not only on -earth but all those that have died before and all those to come. There -will never be duplication. - -Mr. DULLES. The same is true of palmprints, isn't it? - -Mr. LATONA. Absolutely; yes, sir; fingerprints and palmprints and -footprints. - -Representative BOGGS. Can they be distorted, destroyed? - -Mr. LATONA. They can be destroyed in the sense that---- - -Representative BOGGS. Cut your finger off, that is right? - -Mr. LATONA. Sure, you can cut your finger off. You can resort to what -is known as--they can be transferred. You can slice off a pattern from -one finger and place it on another but you will see the scar. They can -have what is known as surgical planing. - -Representative BOGGS. That is what I was thinking about. - -Mr. LATONA. That can be done, too. - -Representative BOGGS. What happens then? - -Mr. LATONA. What happens is that you lose the ridge area and you will -simply have a scar. There will be no more pattern. Now, the pattern -is formed by what are known as dermal papilla, which is below the -epidermis or outer layer of skin. As long as you only injure the outer -surface the ridge formation will grow back exactly the same as it was -before. If you get down to the dermal papilla, which lay like this---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are drawing an illustration on the board which shows -short, broad, downward strokes. - -Mr. LATONA. If you destroy or injure these to the extent that there is -actual bleeding, you will get a permanent scar. - -Fingerprints can be destroyed or scarred in such a fashion that we -would not be able to successfully classify them. - -Mr. DULLES. Do criminals do that? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; they do. We have had one case, probably the most -successful was known as the so-called Roscoe Pitts case. This was a -fugitive who in order to avoid identification went to an unscrupulous -doctor who performed an operation and he did so by virtue of first -cutting five slits on one side of his chest. Then he removed the -pattern areas, what we call the pattern areas, which would consist of -removal of the whole core area down to the delta area, sliced that off. - -Representative BOGGS. How much would that be? - -Mr. LATONA. He would literally have to draw blood. He would have to get -down and just slice that off completely. He did that with five fingers. -Then he taped the five fingers to the side of his chest and he kept -them there for about 2 weeks. The same procedure was gone through with -the other hand, and at the end of that time they were taken down and -bound up individually. When they finally healed, all he has now is scar -tissue for his pattern areas; but all we did in order to identify him -was to drop down to the second joint. We made the identification from -the second joint. - -Now, at that particular time---- - -Representative BOGGS. After all that business. - -Mr. LATONA. It didn't do him any good. Literally, the easiest person in -our files to identify is Roscoe Pitts. He is the only one that has scar -patterns like that. As soon as they see anything like that, everybody -that knows anything about our files knows--Roscoe Pitts. - -Representative BOGGS. Develop, if you will, please, that point that no -two human beings ever have similar prints. Why is that, in your opinion? - -Mr. LATONA. Well, earlier we went through a case which we have in the -FBI, in which we literally have compared millions, millions of single -prints with a fragmentary latent print which we developed on a demand -note in a kidnapping case, one of our major kidnapping cases which -occurred back in 1937, and we have compared this fragmentary print. - -Now, ordinarily in fingerprints there are four basic pattern types. You -have an arch, tented arch, a loop, and a whorl. - -Now in making a comparison, naturally if you can tell the type of -pattern you are going to restrict your comparison to the particular -type. - -In this instance we cannot tell what type of pattern this fragment that -we developed is. We know that it is from a finger. And in attempting -to identify the subject of this kidnapping case, we have compared it -literally with millions of cards. - -Now, existing in this fragmentary print there are only about seven -to eight points that can be found, it is so fragmentary. We cannot -determine the pattern. Accordingly then, when you compare it, you have -to compare it with a person's 10 fingers regardless as to the pattern -types. Bearing in mind that the average fingerprint has from 85 to 125 -points--identifying characteristics--we have literally made millions -of comparisons with only a portion of a finger, and we have failed to -identify these 8 points in all types of patterns. - -Isn't it sufficient to say then that people simply will not have the -same fingerprints? Yet you have authorities, so-called authorities, who -say that it is possible to find all 10 prints duplicated in 1 chance -out of 1 followed by 60 zeros, if you can figure out what that figure -is. - -Representative BOGGS. Who are these authorities? - -Mr. LATONA. They are really in my opinion mathematicians who on the -basis of the so-called characteristic points have said 5 points times -125 times 125 times 125 to about the 10th power and wind up something -like 1 followed by 60 zeros. They are mathematicians but they are not -fingerprint people. - -Mr. DULLES. What is your card system like? If this is too confidential -I don't want to get anything in the record here that is too secret. - -We can take it off the record. - -Mr. LATONA. Nothing is secret about our files. - -Mr. DULLES. How many characteristics do you file on a card so that when -you find these characteristics you can go to the right cabinet and the -right filing drawer and then pull out the right card in time? - -Mr. LATONA. Literally they can break down into hundreds of thousands of -groups. - -Representative BOGGS. How many do you have on file? - -Mr. LATONA. We have the fingerprints of 77-1/2 million people? - -Representative BOGGS. That includes all of those who were in the Army, -Navy---- - -Mr. LATONA. 15 million criminals and about 62.5 million what we call -civil. I explained earlier that our files consist of two main files, -it is criminal files and the civil files. In the civil files are the -fingerprints of individuals, those prints that we have retained, -who have been fingerprinted in connection with some civil affair -like the services, for example, security, sensitive jobs, all types -of applicants, alien registrations. Then we also will accept the -fingerprints of just a private citizen who would like to have his -prints on record for simply identification purposes. - -They are in the category of 62.5 million. Criminal prints, 15 million. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Representative FORD. I have to leave, Mr. Dulles, will you take over as -Chairman for the rest of the time that you can be here? - -Mr. DULLES. I will do so. - -Representative BOGGS. May I ask a question which is not particularly -pertinent to this particular witness, but how many prints on various -things like these boxes and other paraphernalia that the Commission may -now have in its possession have been identified as those of Oswald? - -Mr. LATONA. Six all told. - -Representative BOGGS. Six altogether? - -Mr. LATONA. Six. - -Representative BOGGS. That includes these? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Representative BOGGS. How many, three? - -Mr. LATONA. Three so far. - -Mr. DULLES (addressing Mr. Eisenberg). You have dealt with three so far? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Three so far. We should modify this. We are only -introducing this morning evidence associated with the crime, directly -with the crime. Now, there were many papers submitted to the -identification division. I believe you did identify---- - -Mr. LATONA. Personal effects, wallet, pictures, papers, and things of -that kind which in themselves bear Oswald's prints, which they should -because they belong to him. - -Representative BOGGS. May I ask another question in this connection. -A weapon of this type, in your examination do you find a lot of other -prints on it as well? You do not? - -Mr. LATONA. No. First of all the weapon itself is a cheap one as you -can see. It is one that---- - -Representative BOGGS. Is what? - -Mr. LATONA. A cheap old weapon. The wood is to the point where it won't -take a good print to begin with hardly. The metal isn't of the best, -and not readily susceptible to a latent print. - -Representative BOGGS. Was this weapon picked up first by the police? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, sir. - -Representative BOGGS (addressing Mr. Eisenberg). Did anyone touch it as -far as you know? - -Mr. EISENBERG. No, no. It was picked up by a police officer attached to -the Dallas police force first. - -Mr. DULLES. It came to you directly then from the Dallas police and not -through the Secret Service? - -Mr. LATONA. No; the FBI turned it over to me, the Dallas office of the -FBI flew it up here. - -Representative BOGGS. What I am trying to determine is, the average -police officer when he would pick up a weapon of that kind would take -steps to secure whatever prints might be on that and also prevent the -addition of prints, is that right? - -Mr. LATONA. I would assume so. - -Representative BOGGS. I mean this is part of his training, isn't it? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir; especially if he is--yes; I would say so. That -is almost elementary today. There are so many schools today going that -an officer that doesn't give some thought to latent fingerprints, he -hasn't been to school. - -Representative BOGGS. Of course not. But do you have that problem in -your normal examination? - -Mr. LATONA. Well, a lot of times that all depends. Sometimes they don't -realize the significance of a latent examination, and it is unavoidable -that an object has been contaminated. And then a lot of times it is -simply because of the circumstances. Sometimes possibly in an instance -of this kind because of the crime itself which was involved, I dare say -there must have been a lot of panic there at that time. That is just -pure conjecture on my part. I don't know whether they were thinking in -details as to the examination. I don't think they sat down and just -figured very calmly what they were going to do. - -Representative BOGGS. Of course not. - -Mr. LATONA. I imagine everybody just poured into that room where they -found the thing, somebody would say, "Was this the gun?" and he handed -it to someone else and then he would look at it. Lord knows what went -on down there. - -By the time the gun got there--on the other hand, if the right officer -was there he would have protected it from the beginning and that is -unquestionably what happened here. - -Mr. DULLES. I have to make a telephone call. I will be right back. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I believe that the print showing in the lift was taken -from an area which had been covered by the wooden stock so that it was -protected even against---- - -Mr. LATONA. Promiscuous handling, yes. If that were on the underside, -if that was covered by the wood then very obviously those people there -never did touch that. - -Mr. EISENBERG. At any rate, we are going to find out exactly what they -did. - -Representative BOGGS. Yes. Go ahead. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, just to elaborate on some questions which Mr. Boggs -was asking earlier, Mr. Latona, referring specifically to this weapon, -do you believe that a determination could have been made as to the age -of the print found on the weapon which you have identified as being -Oswald's print, and a lift of which is Exhibit No. 637? - -Mr. LATONA. No; I don't. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You don't? - -Mr. LATONA. No; I don't. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are experts unanimous in this opinion? - -Mr. LATONA. No; they are not. There are some experts who contend that -they can determine from the way the print develops, and they will use -the term "fresh." - -Now, on the other hand, so far as the definition of "fresh," then it -resolves itself into an hour, a day, a week, a month. What is "fresh" -as aside from an "old" one? And my opinion simply is this. That on the -basis of the print itself, on the basis of the print itself I cannot -determine how old it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. At least specifically on this type, or in particular -focusing on this type of weapon? - -Mr. LATONA. Particularly on that weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is 139? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. If there are no further questions on Exhibit 139, -Commissioner Boggs, I will move on to another exhibit. - -Mr. Latona, I hand you now a small cardboard carton which has written -on it "Box A" in red pencil and has various other marks which I won't -go into, and I ask you whether you are familiar with this box, this -carton? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; I am. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And did you examine this carton, Mr. Latona, to -determine whether there were any identifiable latent fingerprints -present? - -Mr. LATONA. I did not personally process this box, but I was present at -the time that the box was, and I had occasion to examine that during -the course of its being processed while it was being done. - -Mr. EISENBERG. It was processed in your presence? - -Mr. LATONA. In my presence and under my direction. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like this admitted as a Commission -exhibit with your permission. - -Representative BOGGS. It will be admitted. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be 641. - -(The box referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 641, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, when you received this box which is now 641, -did it bear any evidence that it had been dusted or otherwise tested -for fingerprints? - -Mr. LATONA. No; it had not, just a plain cardboard box. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So far as you could tell then it had not been? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right; it had not been processed. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How was it processed in the FBI laboratory? - -Mr. LATONA. First by the iodine fume and subsequently by chemical means. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did the iodine fume develop any identifiable prints? - -Mr. LATONA. It did not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did the chemical means? - -Mr. LATONA. The silver nitrate did develop a latent fingerprint. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Just one? - -Mr. LATONA. A latent fingerprint; yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Just one identifiable print? - -Mr. LATONA. One identifiable print; yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you want to check your notes on that, Mr. Latona? - -Mr. LATONA. There was another print identified on that. There were two -prints, one palmprint. There was developed on Box A, Exhibit No. 641, -one palmprint and one fingerprint. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were those the only identifiable prints, Mr. Latona? - -Mr. LATONA. No; there were other fingerprints developed on this box. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you recall how many there were? - -Mr. LATONA. On Box A, in addition to these two prints there were -developed eight fingerprints and three palmprints. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is, a total of 13? - -Mr. LATONA. Nine fingerprints and four palmprints. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Thirteen identifiable prints? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I just get caught up. What is this box we have here? - -Mr. EISENBERG. This is a box which was found near the window in the -TSBD from which the assassin apparently fired, that is, the easternmost -window or the south face of the TSBD. Yesterday, cartridge cases--and -the day before--cartridge cases were discussed which were also found -near that window. This box is labeled on there, I believe---- - -Mr. LATONA. "A." - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; and I think it also says "top box": yes; it says -"top box." - -Mr. DULLES. This is the "Rolling Reader?" - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. The Rolling Reader has played quite a role in our testimony. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; now, this particular box is labeled "top box," and -I believe this particular box was on the top of the three boxes, two of -which were Rolling Reader boxes, which were found near the window and -which may have been used as a rest by the assassin for his rifle. - -Mr. DULLES. As I recall, previous testimony indicates that the Rolling -Reader box had been moved from its normal place---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Apparently so. - -Mr. DULLES. With the other Rolling Reader boxes, and put in a position -near the window from which it was alleged the shot was fired. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Apparently so, and, apart from the two boxes--the two -Rolling Reader boxes which were found near the sixth floor window--the -regular storage area for the Rolling Reader boxes was a distance away -from the sixth floor window. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes; I recall that testimony. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So you found 13 identifiable prints, Mr. Latona. Were -you able to identify any of these prints as belonging to a specific -individual? - -Mr. LATONA. We were able to identify one fingerprint and one palmprint. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And whose prints were they? - -Mr. LATONA. The fingerprint was identified as Harvey Lee Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the palm? - -Mr. LATONA. The palmprint was identified also as Harvey Lee Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Again Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, again you used, did you, the known print which was -marked into evidence earlier? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you used those in all your identifications, I -believe? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, can you tell us what portion of the palm -of Lee Harvey Oswald is reproduced on this box, this carton 641, as a -latent print? - -Mr. LATONA. I have here a photograph of the palmprint which has an area -indicated by a rough red circle showing the approximate area, which is -the ulnar area of the left palm. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is the area closest to the little finger? - -Mr. LATONA. On that side; yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This is a true photograph which was prepared by you or -under your supervision? - -Mr. LATONA. A true reproduction of the original, which you already have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 642, Mr. Chairman? - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question. Apparently the red mark on this -exhibit on the palm is in a different place, isn't it, a slightly -different place? - -Mr. LATONA. It is a different palm. This is the left palm. - -Mr. EISENBERG (addressing Mr. Dulles). This is the left palm. The other -two are right palms. - -Mr. DULLES. Good, that straightens me out. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Actually they were both on the ulnar side of the palm? - -Mr. LATONA. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And they were both taken on what is commonly called the -heel of the palm? - -Mr. DULLES. This is a different hand. This is the left hand, and what -we have had so far is the right hand on the palmprints. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LATONA. Previously we had two palmprints on the right hand. This -third one is from the left. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May this photograph be admitted as 642, Mr. Chairman? - -Mr. DULLES. This will be admitted. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 642, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, do you have another photograph in your hand -there? - -Mr. LATONA. Here I have another photograph, a slight enlargement time -and a half, which is a latent palmprint found on the cardboard box -marked "A," which is the Commission's Exhibit 641. This is indicated by -a red arrow. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Let's hold that just a second and get the photograph -admitted. - -Representative BOGGS (addressing Mr. Eisenberg). Where did these boxes -come from? - -Mr. EISENBERG. These boxes were located in front of the window from -which the assassin apparently fired. There were three boxes stacked -immediately in front of the window, of which this Exhibit No. 641 -was the topmost box, and these were apparently used as a rest by the -assassin for positioning his rifle. - -As you can see, there are several other boxes in the room which will be -introduced shortly. - -Mr. DULLES. I may say that there was testimony, I don't recall whether -you were here at the time, about some boxes called Rolling Reader, -Hale. Do you recall the testimony on the Rolling Reader? - -Representative BOGGS. No. - -Mr. DULLES. These boxes were moved from a place on the sixth floor room -where a great many Rolling Reader boxes were placed, and they were put -near the window, and a Rolling Reader--apparently these are cubes, and -they are for small children and they roll them out on the floor and -they learn how to read the letters of the alphabet and other things -from these Rolling Readers. - -These boxes, because of their nature--do you know what the blocks are -made of? - -Mr. EISENBERG. No; I don't. - -Mr. DULLES. They weren't solid wood but they were light cubes and -therefore presumably these boxes were moved because they were a good -deal lighter and easier to handle than other boxes. Is that consistent -with the testimony as you recall it? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. - -Representative BOGGS. Were they full when you got them? - -Mr. EISENBERG. You will have to ask Mr. Latona. - -Mr. LATONA. They were empty. They had been opened and the books removed -or the contents, whatever it was. - -Mr. DULLES. The contents were apparently these cubes, as we were told, -and small children use them and roll them on the floor and then they -got the A's and the B's and the C's. - -Representative BOGGS. In the opening process, this would not have any -effect on the fingerprints or the palmprints? - -Mr. LATONA. It could. I mean in the sense that somebody else's prints, -the people opening them if they didn't take the time and effort to -protect themselves, they could have left their prints there. I don't -know how that was done. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether the testimony shows whether the boxes -were presumably filled when they were originally moved from their -normal place in the Book Depository to the window? - -Mr. EISENBERG. I think they were, although I haven't read the testimony. - -Mr. DULLES. I am not sure there is testimony on that point but I think -that is the general assumption. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Based on reproduction photographs we have seen---- - -Mr. LATONA. That is the understanding that we have, that this was the -depository for new material. I think there was new material in these -boxes. They were simply stored there. - -Representative BOGGS. They wouldn't have acted as a very good rest had -they been empty. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Back on the record. - -Mr. Chairman, may I have this photograph of the latent palmprint -admitted as 643? - -Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 643, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you show us where on the box, the box 641, this -latent palmprint appears? - -Mr. LATONA. The latent palmprint appears on box A, Commission's Exhibit -641. It has been indicated by a red arrow. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you mark that arrow with an "A"? - -Mr. LATONA. The red arrow is being marked "A." - -Mr. EISENBERG. That points to the palmprint of Lee Harvey -Oswald--identified by you as being Lee Harvey Oswald's, is that right? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Let the record show that Mr. Dulles and Mr. Boggs and -Mr. Murray are looking at the actual print marked "A," or marked with -an arrow next to which is written the letter "A." - -Mr. MURRAY. I see what appears to be a print; yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Dulles and Mr. Boggs? - -Mr. DULLES. I also see what appears to be a print. - -Representative BOGGS. I see the same thing. - -Mr. DULLES. And it is too big in my opinion to be a fingerprint. - -Mr. EISENBERG (addressing Mr. Latona). Did you prepare a photograph -also of the fingerprint which appears on this box---- - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. 641, Mr. Latona? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And is this a true photograph of that fingerprint? - -Mr. LATONA. It is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted, Mr. Chairman, as 644? - -Mr. DULLES. This is a fingerprint now? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; which also appears on the box that Mr. Latona just -testified as to, 641. - -Mr. DULLES. Has he identified what fingerprint? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you testify that this was the fingerprint---- - -Mr. LATONA. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you identify this fingerprint as belonging to a -given individual? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that individual was? - -Mr. LATONA. Lee Harvey Oswald, and it is the right index fingerprint. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman---- - -Mr. DULLES. The right index finger. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be 644. - -Mr. DULLES. Admitted. - -(The fingerprint referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 644, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. You also have a photograph of a 10-finger card showing -that print encircled? - -Mr. LATONA. I do. - -Mr. EISENBERG. It is a red circle, and you are handing that to me now? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have that admitted, Mr. Chairman, as 645? - -Mr. DULLES. It may be admitted. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 645, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. What portion of the finger of Lee Harvey Oswald does -that print represent? - -Mr. LATONA. It represents what is referred to as the distal phalanx of -the right index finger. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is the phalanx or the tip furthest away from the -wrist? - -Mr. LATONA. The palm. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Or from the palm? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that a full or partial print of the distal phalanx? - -Mr. LATONA. That is a partial print. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And does it take on the center, or the ulnar or the -radial portion of the phalanx? - -Mr. LATONA. No, that takes actually the central portion of the print. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The central portion? - -Mr. LATONA. The so-called pattern area is disclosed by the latent print. - -Mr. DULLES. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show us, Mr. Latona, on 641, where the -fingerprint impression that you have just identified is? - -Mr. LATONA. That appears on one of the ends of the box indicated by a -red arrow. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you mark that arrow, "B"? - -Mr. LATONA. Marked "B." - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Dulles, would you care to take a look at that? - -Mr. LATONA. Here you are going to see several clear prints but it is -only one that we have identified, and that is the one directly under -the arrow. - -Mr. DULLES. I see four there, or five. - -Mr. LATONA. It is the little one here in the middle, right here. - -Mr. DULLES. Is it this one here, right there? - -Mr. LATONA. No; the one next to it. - -Mr. DULLES. That one there? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. What are all these other fingerprints? - -Mr. LATONA. They are all other fingerprints. - -Mr. EISENBERG. There were a total of 13 identifiable prints on the box, -did you say? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. Those are not Oswald's prints. - -Representative BOGGS. Those may have been other people opening the box? - -Mr. DULLES. The box was carried around probably. - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. When it was first put there and moved. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you put your finger on that box, Mr. Latona, in -the way that the finger was placed? - -Mr. DULLES. How do you think he was carrying that box? - -Mr. LATONA. I don't know. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is your finger now placed in the way the finger was -placed to create the impression? It is pointing with the fingernail -towards the arrow and in the same line as the arrow, with just the tip -of the finger on the box. - -Mr. DULLES. Everybody seems to have held that box. - -Mr. LATONA. It is a little one right there. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Murray, do you want to take a look? - -Representative BOGGS. You have not identified any of these others? - -Mr. LATONA. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Let the record show that Commissioners Dulles and Boggs -and Mr. Murray are looking at that fingerprint, and have apparently -satisfied themselves---- - -Mr. MURRAY. The portion shown to me appears to be part of a fingerprint. - -Mr. EISENBERG. They have satisfied themselves that the print is on the -box. - -Now, therefore, to recapitulate: You found on this carton 641 the left -palmprint and the right index fingerprint of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. LATONA. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. One other thing. Getting back to the palmprint, marked -"A," could you show us how a hand would lie to produce that print? - -Mr. LATONA. In the position of the palm pointing towards the arrow. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Pointing towards the arrow, that is, in the opposite -direction that the arrow points? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But in the same line as the arrow. Your hand is parallel -with the line but covering that completely? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And although it covers it, I would say that the arrow -would fall in the midline of the palm, is that right? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Latona, did you prepare a chart showing some of -the points which led you to the conclusion that the latent palmprint -found on 641 was identical with the inked palmprint submitted to you by -the Dallas police? - -Mr. LATONA. I had charts prepared; yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. These were prepared under your supervision? - -Mr. LATONA. They were. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have that chart admitted as 646? - -Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted. - -(The chart referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 646, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is the magnification? - -Mr. LATONA. Approximately eight times. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is the magnification equal on both sides? - -Mr. LATONA. Both sides; the inked palmprint and latent palmprint both -the same. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that true of all of the charts that you have -submitted and will be submitting this morning? - -Mr. LATONA. That is true. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, could you point out some of these points? I -think in the interest of time it would be better if you took several of -the points instead of all 13 points you have marked. - -Mr. LATONA. I believe you will find this will be a little bit more -difficult to see in view of the fact that the ridge formations are cut -up a little bit more. However---- - -Mr. DULLES. Would you put that over there. You have identified 13 -points of similarity? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; 13 have been drawn but there are quite a few others. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You have marked 13 in other words, is that it, Mr. -Latona? - -Mr. LATONA. Sir? - -Mr. EISENBERG. You have marked 13? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. On this exhibit? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. Here, for example, is an easy one to -show up, this point No. 1 as compared to point No. 1 here, and its -relationship to point No. 2, the relationship of point No. 2 to point -No. 3. - -Looking over here we find that there is a relationship between points -Nos. 1 and 2, one, two, three, four, five, one, two, three, four, five. - -Then there's a relationship of one ridge between point 1--or rather -between point 2 and point 3, both points going in the same general -direction. - -Point No. 3 is below point No. 2. Also the point No. 2 is what is -referred to as a short ending ridge. We look over here and we see that -point No. 2 is a short ending ridge. - -Point No. 3 is below that. Then we notice that there is another point -which is one point removed--one ridge removed--from point No. 3 which -we have not charted, which shows up very definitely in that position -there. Then there is point No. 4, which is another piece of a ridge, -point No. 4 here. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, when you testify in court do you generally -discuss every marked point? - -Mr. LATONA. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Just the more salient points? - -Mr. LATONA. Just to give a general idea as to how these comparisons -are made, more or less for demonstration purposes, because the actual -comparison is the same, the relationship is a determination of the -relationship with the others, and just by an examination, that would be -borne out if each and every point was gone into in detail. - -Mr. EISENBERG. With you permission, Mr. Chairman, I would like to move -on to the next chart since we do have witnesses waiting who have to -return to New York. - -Mr. DULLES. Right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you prepare a chart, Mr. Latona, of the -fingerprint---- - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which was found on the carton 641? - -Mr. LATONA. Here is the chart, which is of the right index fingerprint -of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was this prepared by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. LATONA. They were. The enlargement here is approximately 10 times -both in the inked print and in the latent print. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as 647? - -Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted. - -(The chart referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 647, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you discuss again just a few of the more salient -points, Mr. Latona? - -Mr. LATONA. Here, starting first of all with the apparent pattern type -itself, it is readily discernible. You can see that these are what we -term whorl-type prints. This point No. 1, for example, is a small ridge -which terminates at this point which has been indicated by the figure -No. 1. - -It is related by being joined onto point No. 2, which is the end of the -black line going upward. Then one ridge to the left, one ridge removed -and to the left and a little bit above is point No. 3. Here the same -thing occurs in the inked print. - -Point No. 4 is related to point No. 3 by one ridge removed and is -upward and one ridge to the left. - -Mr. DULLES. And similarly you have identified up to 10 points of -similarity? - -Mr. LATONA. These you can see rather easily that they appear. - -Mr. EISENBERG. If there are no further questions on the carton 641 I -will move on to another exhibit. - -I now hand you a carton, somewhat larger in area than the 641 which -we were just discussing, with various markings on it which I won't -discuss, but which is marked Box "D" in red pencil at the upper -left-hand corner of the bottom of the box. - -Are you familiar with this carton, Mr. Latona? - -Mr. DULLES. Has that been admitted? - -Mr. EISENBERG. It has not so far been admitted. - -Mr. LATONA. This Box D, I received this along with Box A for purposes -of examining for latent prints. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was that examined by you or under your supervision for -that purpose? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes, it was. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When was that received? - -Mr. LATONA. That was received on the 27th of November 1963. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as 648? - -Mr. DULLES. What date? - -Mr. LATONA. 27th. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is 5 days after the assassination? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 648? - -Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted. - -(The box referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 648, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. DULLES. Can you identify it in some further way? I think there are -some markings on here. - -Mr. EISENBERG. There is "Box D." It is a little hard to read. It says -"1 40 N TH&DO"---- - -Mr. DULLES. "New People and Progress." - -Mr. EISENBERG. Apparently referring to the name of the textbook. This -is not a Rolling Reader carton. - -Mr. DULLES. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, when you received this box, could you tell -whether it had been previously examined for latent fingerprints? - -Mr. LATONA. A portion of it had. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And can you tell us what portion had been? - -Mr. LATONA. The bottom evidently, because a piece had been cut out. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are pointing to a place on the bottom of the box -which is to the left of the point at which I have affixed the sticker -"Commission Exhibit No. 648," immediately to the left of that point? - -Mr. LATONA. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was that portion of the box given to you? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes, it was. - -Mr. EISENBERG. With the box? - -Mr. LATONA. At the time we got the box. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I think I have that. - -I now hand you what appears to be a portion of a cardboard carton and a -piece of tape with various writings, included among which is "From top -of box Oswald apparently sat on to fire gun." - -Do you recognize this piece of paper, Mr. Latona? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes, I do. This is a piece of paper that evidently had been -cut from the box. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does that fit into the box? - -Mr. LATONA. It does. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as 649? - -Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted as 649. - -(The piece of carton referred to was marked commission exhibit no. 649, -and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, did you find any identifiable prints on the -cardboard carton 648? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; in addition to this one which has been cut out and -which had been covered by a piece of lifting tape, there were two -fingerprints developed in addition to that one. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Two Identifiable Fingerprints? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Palmprints? - -Mr. LATONA. No; they were fingerprints. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I mean were there any palmprints? - -Mr. LATONA. There were no palmprints. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How did you process this box? - -Mr. LATONA. By the use of iodine fumes and silver nitrate solution. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you find evidence of processing prior to your -receipt apart from the exhibit which is now 649? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; this particular area which has been cut out had been -processed with powder. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was there powder on other areas of the box? - -Mr. LATONA. I don't believe there was. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you identify any of the prints on the carton 648 as -belonging to a specific individual? - -Mr. LATONA. The two fingerprints which were developed on commission -exhibit 648 by silver nitrate are not identified as anyone's, but the -print which appears on the piece which was cut out has been identified. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is 649? - -Mr. LATONA. Of exhibit 648--which is exhibit 649---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes? - -Mr. LATONA. Which came from exhibit 648 has been identified as a -palmprint of Harvey Lee Oswald, the right palmprint. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is Lee Harvey Oswald, Mr. Latona? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Latona, can you tell how this was developed, -this print on 649? - -Mr. LATONA. The appearance is it was developed with black powder. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You testified before concerning the aging of -fingerprints. Considering the material on which this print was -developed, 649, do you think you could form an opinion, any opinion at -all, concerning the freshness or staleness of this print? - -Mr. LATONA. Bearing in mind the fact that this is an absorbent -material, and realizing, of course, that a print when it is left on a -material of this type it starts to soak in. Now, the reason that we in -the FBI do not use powder is because of the fact that in a short period -of time the print will soak in so completely that there won't be any -moisture left. - -Accordingly when you brush powder across there won't be anything -developed. - -Under circumstances, bearing in mind that here the box was powdered, -and a print was developed with powder, the conclusion is that this is -comparatively a fresh print. Otherwise, it would not have developed. - -We know, too, that we developed two other fingerprints on this by -chemicals. How long a time had elapsed since the time this print was -placed on there until the time that it would have soaked in so that the -resulting examination would have been negative I don't know, but that -could not have been too long. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say "not too long," would you say not 3 weeks, -or not 3 days, or not 3 hours? - -Mr. LATONA. Very definitely I'd say not 3 days. I'd say not 3 weeks. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And not 3 days, either? - -Mr. LATONA. No; I don't believe so, because I don't think that the -print on here that is touched on a piece of cardboard will stay on a -piece of cardboard for 3 days. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you bring that any closer? - -Mr. LATONA. I am afraid I couldn't come any closer. - -Mr. EISENBERG. 3 days? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That would be the outermost limit that you can testify -concerning? - -Mr. LATONA. We have run some tests, and usually a minimum of 24 hours -on a material of this kind, depending upon how heavy the sweat was, to -try to say within a 24-hour period would be a guess on my part. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I am not sure I understand your reference to a minimum -of 24 hours. - -Mr. LATONA. We have conducted tests with various types of materials as -to how long it could be before we would not develop a latent print. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes? - -Mr. LATONA. Assuming that the same print was left on an object or a -series of similar prints were left on an object, and powdering them, -say, at intervals of every 4 hours or so, we would fail to develop a -latent print of that particular type on that particular surface, say, -within a 24-hour period. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that is a maximum of 24 hours? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You would not care, you say, though---- - -Mr. LATONA. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. To employ that here, but your experiments produced a -maximum time of 24 hours. - -Mr. LATONA. Bear that out; yes. Like I say, undoubtedly this print was -left on there--between the time that the print was left and the time -that it was powdered could not have been too long a time. Otherwise, -the print would not have developed with the clarity that it did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You identified that, I believe, as the right palmprint -of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What portion of the right palm was that, Mr. Latona? - -Mr. LATONA. It happens to be the center part of the palm close to the -wrist. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you show how the palm must have lain on the 649, the -part of the 648 carton, to produce that print? - -Mr. LATONA. It would have been placed on there in this fashion. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you are pointing so that your hand is parallel with -the long axis of the box, and at right angles to the short axis? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And just the bottom of the palm rests on the box, isn't -that correct? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, before going to this fingerprint or this palmprint -rather, Mr. Latona, we have palmprints, a palmprint here on this 649, -and a finger and a palm on 641, and those are the only identified -prints on these two objects. - -Is it possible that Lee Harvey Oswald could have touched these two -cartons at other places without leaving identifiable prints? - -Mr. LATONA. He could have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And how would that come about? - -Mr. LATONA. Simply by the fact that he did not have any material on his -finger at the time he touched the box. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that you can touch a carton at one point and leave a -print, and at another point not, is that right? - -Mr. LATONA. Very definitely, that is true. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And when you say he doesn't have any material, how would -that come about? Will he have used his material up, or not produced -material with the particular finger? - -Mr. LATONA. He could have used it up and failed to produce it fast -enough to have left anything at the time he touched that. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is it uncommon or common for you to find an object which -a person has touched more than once but only left one identifiable -print? - -Mr. LATONA. It is very common. - -Mr. EISENBERG. It is common? - -Mr. LATONA. Especially in, for example, the reading of a letter, a long -letter where the person would run his finger and index finger down the -edges. You might find prints at the top and then you don't find any at -the bottom. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Of course. I am not asking you to draw an inference -whether or not Oswald touched the box in more than one place, but I -just want to explore whether he could have touched the box in more than -one place---- - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; he could. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And not left a second imprint? - -Mr. LATONA. He very definitely could have and not left one. - -Mr. DULLES. May I add for the record, Commission Exhibit 648 apparently -contained books of Scott Foresman and Co., from Scott, Foresman & Co., -"Building for Today, Pioneering for Tomorrow." - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, did you take a photograph of the lift, or -the print rather, which we see in 649? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And this is an accurate photograph? - -Mr. LATONA. It is, it is a true reproduction of the print which appears -on Commission Exhibit 649 and it is enlarged about a time and a half. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as 650? - -Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 650, for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take a photograph of the known palmprint and -make a red circle around it, as you had in previous cases? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. To show what portion of the palm of Oswald that was? - -Mr. LATONA. Showing a portion of the right palm. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have that admitted? - -Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted as 651. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 651, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. By the way, Mr. Latona, on 649 there seems to be a -scotch tape or cellophane tape over the fingerprint, is that right? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, apparently there was no attempt at a lift being -made here? - -Mr. LATONA. No. This evidently was a print which was developed directly -on the paper itself. The employing of that adhesive material like -scotch tape was to protect the print itself. - -Had they tried to lift that up I am afraid they would have spoiled that -because they would have lifted the fibers of the cardboard along with -it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that why, you think, they didn't lift it? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; very definitely. - -Mr. EISENBERG. By the way, did the Dallas police take photographs of -the lift which we had earlier, the lift which was apparently taken from -Exhibit 139, or to put the question--actually I am not interested in -whether they took photographs of the lift; do you know whether they -took photographs of the print? - -Mr. LATONA. I don't know. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is it normal to take a photograph of a print before it is -lifted? - -Mr. LATONA. If it is fairly visible, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is the purpose of the lift, as opposed to a -photograph reproducing the print? - -Mr. LATONA. The purpose of the lift is simply to insure the probability -of getting a good record of the print, because a lot of times when you -photograph a print, you have to go through the process of having it -developed and then printed and at the same time by lifting it you may, -that would be an additional security that you are getting the best -results. - -Then you take your choice as to which result turns out the best. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So these are alternative routes? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Lifting and photographing? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. Well, primarily our recommendation in the -FBI is simply every procedure to photograph and then lift. Then you -choose the one which you feel gives you the best results in your final -photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Returning to the palmprint on 649, taken from the carton -648, did you make up a chart showing some of the points---- - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which led you to your conclusion that that print was the -print of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes, I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And was that prepared by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. LATONA. Prepared by me--under my supervision. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this chart admitted as 652? - -Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted as Exhibit 652. - -(The chart referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 652, for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Again, without going into detail, Mr. Latona, could -you show us some of the more salient points which led you to your -conclusion that the print on 649 was the palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. LATONA. The easiest points visible here, right offhand, point -No. 11 which is a black line that goes upward and its relationship -to point No. 10. This is known as the short ending ridge as is seen -here. Its relation to point No. 8. Point No. 11 is a black line going -upward. Point No. 8 is a black line going downward and there are one, -two, three, ridges which are between the two. Over here in the latent -print you find No. 11 which is a black line going upward. It is a short -line to the other end of the point No. 10, and three ridges intervene -between that and point No. 8, which is going downward. - -One ridge to the right and going in an upward direction is point No. -7--7, 8, 9, 10, 11. - -Mr. DULLES. And you identified 11 points of similarity? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. Between the inked palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald and this -palmprint taken from this cardboard carton? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. What is this white line that goes up through each? - -Mr. LATONA. This is a crease in the center of the palm, a flexure -crease of that area. - -Mr. DULLES. The palm did not touch the carton at that point? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. And those two creases are in approximately the same -location in the photograph and in the latent palmprint? - -Mr. LATONA. Very definitely. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, I now hand you two further cartons, which -are labeled Box B and Box C, the B box being a 10 Rolling Reader, and -the C box being also a Scott, Foresman box with printing on the back, -"The Three Pre-primers," apparently the name of the book contained in -this box. - -Mr. DULLES. Primers. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, did you examine Box B, which I have handed -to you, to determine whether it had on it any identifiable latent -fingerprints? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like that box admitted as 653. - -Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 653 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. How many identifiable prints did you find on this carton? - -Mr. LATONA. There were seven fingerprints and two palmprints developed -on Commission Exhibit 653. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is, identifiable prints? - -Mr. LATONA. Identifiable prints. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you identify any of those prints as belonging to a -specific person? - -Mr. LATONA. I did not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have 654 marked, Box C, Mr. Chairman? Did you also -examine Box C? - -Mr. LATONA. Box C, yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have that admitted as 654? - -Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted as Commission Exhibit 654. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 654 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you find any latent identifiable prints on 654? - -Mr. LATONA. I found two fingerprints and one palmprint. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you identify them as belonging to a specific -individual? - -Mr. LATONA. I did not identify them. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, did you attempt to identify them with Lee Harvey -Oswald's known prints? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; and they are not Lee Harvey Oswald's prints. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When did you receive cartons 653 and 654? - -Mr. LATONA. I received cartons 653 and 654 November 27. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is, with the earlier cartons, Boxes A and D, which -have received Commission exhibit numbers? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Had they been processed? Could you tell whether they had -been processed for latent fingerprints? - -Mr. LATONA. I couldn't tell whether they had been or not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You could not tell? - -Mr. LATONA. Could not tell. They had the appearance of not having been -processed. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How did you process them in your laboratory, Mr. Latona? - -Mr. LATONA. Iodine fumes and chemicals. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did the prints react to the iodine fumes at all? - -Mr. LATONA. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Just to the chemicals? - -Mr. LATONA. The silver nitrate prints which were developed. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you mean that the prints were of such a caliber and -character that you couldn't make anything out of them, or that you -couldn't identify them with any known---- - -Mr. LATONA. They are not identical with those that they have been -compared with. - -Mr. DULLES. But the prints themselves were perfectly good prints? - -Mr. LATONA. Oh, yes; the prints are good but they are not Lee Harvey -Oswald's. - -Mr. EISENBERG. At any subsequent time have you attempted to identify -any of these prints on the boxes as belonging to any person other than -Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And how did you proceed with this attempt? - -Mr. LATONA. An effort was made to locate the fingerprints of all people -employed in that building in which these cartons were found, on the -basis of the names and birth dates which were furnished, and we located -the fingerprints of 16 of those people who work in that building. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes? - -Mr. LATONA. And the fingerprints of those 16 employees were compared -with all of the latent prints which were developed on these boxes. They -do not belong to any of those 16 people. - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask for my information here, Mr. Eisenberg, were all -of these cartons, including the last two admitted in evidence, were -they found in the general area of the sixth floor of the building from -which it is believed the shot was fired? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; Mr. Chairman. I believe that the two boxes which -were just admitted into evidence as 653 and 654 were two of the three -boxes which were apparently used as a rest by the assassin. They were -apparently either the two bottom boxes, or there might have been an -arrangement such as that one was stacked on top of the other, and the -box earlier admitted into evidence was some evidence of that. - -Mr. DULLES. And in any event, does our evidence indicate that these -boxes were moved from their normal position on the sixth floor to a new -position near the window? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Again I believe it does indicate that at least the 10 -Rolling Reader carton was moved. There was some other movement of boxes -that morning, and I think they are still in the process of tracing down -all of the movements. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I have a letter, Mr. Latona, from Mr. Hoover to Mr. -Rankin, the general counsel of our Commission, setting forth the names -of the employees of the TSBD whose prints were compared in this recent -attempt you mentioned. Would you recognize the names? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; I would because I believe that report is based on my -report. - -Mr. EISENBERG. If I read the name could you verify whether these -individuals were the ones whose prints you checked out against the -latents? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Haddon Spurgeon Aiken? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Jack Charles Cason? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Warren Cason? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Jack Edwin Doughterty? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Charles Douglas Givens? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mary Madeline Hollis? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. James Earl Jarman? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Spaulden Earnest Jones? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Herbert L. Junker? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Billy Nolan Lovelady? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Joe R. Molina? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Edward Shields? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Joyce Maurine Stansberg? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Roy Sansom Truly? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Lloyd R. Viles? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Troy Eugene West? - -Mr. LATONA. Correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now as I understand it, these employees were not -selected because any particular suspicion fell on them, but merely -because of all the employees, those were the ones whose cards you knew -you had in your files? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And it was just accidental---- - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That those employees were picked? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. There is no inference that there was any suspicion -whatsoever attaching to any of these employees? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. We believe all these employees had access to the sixth -floor of the building? - -Mr. EISENBERG. We are still looking into that question. This is a -recent effort on your part? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Is that letter to be admitted as evidence or not? - -Mr. EISENBERG. I think not---- - -Mr. DULLES. Right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Since I don't think the witness could identify the -actual letter. - -Mr. DULLES. It will be in the files, though? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; it is a Commission document in the files. - -Mr. Latona, I believe that out of the total number of six prints -you have identified today as being Lee Harvey Oswald's, four were -palmprints, is that correct? - -Mr. LATONA. Three. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Three? - -Mr. LATONA. Three, two rights and one left, three palms and three -fingers. - -Mr. EISENBERG. There was a palm on---- - -Mr. LATONA. The bag. - -Mr. EISENBERG. A palm on the weapon? - -Mr. LATONA. One on the gun and on this box. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Four and two then? - -Mr. LATONA. Three. - -Mr. EISENBERG. There was a palm on each box? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is two palms? - -Mr. LATONA. One off the gun. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is three palms, and the palm on the wrapping paper -bag. Here is the wrapping paper bag. - -Mr. LATONA. One palm and one finger. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is four palms all together? - -Mr. LATONA. Four palms, okay. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that correct? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, is the proportion of recovered fingerprints here -an unusual one in your estimation? That is, we usually hear about -fingerprints rather than palmprints, whereas here we have four palm and -two finger prints. Is there anything unusual in this? - -Mr. LATONA. Well, in that manner there is because--well no, I guess -not. It is just as logical to assume that a person will leave a -palmprint as a fingerprint. It depends upon primarily the way he -handles it. Objects of this type being so large you can probably expect -to get a palmprint. - -Mr. DULLES. And what he is handling? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. On the other hand, if the object is small -there is probably no reason for the palm to touch it. For example, in a -rearview mirror; ordinarily on a rearview mirror of these stolen cars -we process you get mostly fingerprints. - -On the other hand if you get back into the trunk, the chances of -something of a large nature, a stolen wheel, or something of that type, -you will get finger and palm prints. Cartons like this, where you have -to use both hands to pick it up because of its weight, the probability -is that you will get a palmprint as well as a fingerprint. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would the same thing be true of a heavy rifle? - -Mr. LATONA. Sure, very definitely. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And if the bag contained a heavy object inside? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right, it would take more than just the finger area -of the hand to hold on to it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, did you prepare at my request a series -of photographs for transmission by me to the New York City Police -Department--photographs of finger and palm prints found on some of the -evidence we have been looking at? - -Mr. LATONA. I furnished you photographs of all of the remaining -unidentified latent prints from these cartons. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And also did you furnish me a photograph--just of the -remaining unidentified prints? - -Mr. LATONA. No; including the ones which I identified. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you also furnish me with a photograph of the -two prints you identified--which parenthetically were the only two -identifiable prints--on the brown wrapping paper bag? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which is Exhibit 142. And of the lift from the weapon -139? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you also furnished me with photographs of the finger -and palmprints of Lee Harvey Oswald---- - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. As transmitted to you by the Dallas office of the FBI? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you identify these as the photographs you furnished -to me? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you identified the envelope marked "two photos Box -D"? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have that admitted as 655? - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 655 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. DULLES. I think there ought to be some cross-identification inside -the envelope. Because obviously if you take that envelope and put -anything in it, we ought to have the others identified properly. - -Mr. EISENBERG. There are two photographs within this. Let the record -show there are two photographs within this envelope, marked "7" and -"13," and I believe these are the only photographs so marked. Each -photograph is marked with an individual number, so these are the only -two photographs in the entire set marked "7" and "13." - -Mr. DULLES. Excellent. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now I have an envelope marked "10 photos Box A." Have -you identified these photographs Mr. Latona? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have these photographs admitted as group 656? - -Mr. DULLES. It shall be. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 656 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. DULLES. How many enclosures in that? - -Mr. EISENBERG. There are 10 enclosures and numbered as follows: 25, 26, -27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 34, 35. - -Mr. DULLES. There is no 33? - -Mr. EISENBERG. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted as Commission Exhibit---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. 656. - -Mr. DULLES. That is 656 with the enclosures as noted and identified. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I have here photographs--an envelope--labeled -"Photographs, Fingerprints, and Palmprints, Lee Harvey Oswald." These -are accurate reproductions? - -Mr. LATONA. They are. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, with your permission I will later put -subnumbers on these. - -Mr. DULLES. Seven numbers with seven enclosures? - -Mr. EISENBERG. No, sir; three enclosures. - -Mr. DULLES. With three enclosures? - -Mr. EISENBERG. And I will number the 10-print card--first may I have -the envelope with the photographs admitted as 657? - -Mr. DULLES. The envelope shall be admitted with---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. I will subnumber the cards with your permission at a -later time. - -Mr. DULLES. How many enclosures in it, three? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Three. I will subnumber the 10-print card 657-A, the -right palm 657-B, and left palm 657-C. - -Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibits Nos. 657-A, 657-B, and 657-C were marked, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. I have an envelope with photos marked "one photo of lift -'underside of gun barrel.'" Is this a photograph which you provided me? - -Mr. LATONA. It is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 658, Mr. Chairman? - -Mr. DULLES. 658 with how many enclosures? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Just one. - -Mr. DULLES. Just one enclosure. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 658 was marked, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, an envelope marked "two photos brown bag (wrapping -paper)." - -This is the two photos, Mr. Latona, which you gave to me? - -Mr. LATONA. It is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have that admitted as 659, Mr. Chairman? - -Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted as 659 with one enclosure in the -envelope. Is it one or two? - -Mr. EISENBERG. There are two enclosures. - -Mr. DULLES. With two in the envelope. - -Mr. EISENBERG. One has printing on it and with your permission I will -mark that "659-A," and the other has no printing and I will mark it -"659-B." - -Mr. DULLES. It will be so admitted. - -(Commission Exhibits Nos. 659-A and 659-B were marked, and received in -evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now an envelope marked "eight photos Box B." This is, -Mr. Latona, the photographs you provided me? - -Mr. LATONA. It is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as Exhibit 660, Mr. Chairman, -collectively? - -Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted as Commission Exhibit No. 660 with---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. With eight enclosures---- - -Mr. DULLES. Eight enclosures. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Marked "15"--the next one has 17 scratched out and also -18 appearing on it--19 for the third enclosure, 20, 21, 22, 23, and 24. - -Mr. DULLES. With the numbers as indicated in the record. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 660 was marked, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. And finally an envelope of the same size, marked "three -photos, Box C." Mr. Latona, these are the photos you gave me? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; they are. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have these admitted as 661, Mr. Chairman? - -Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted as Exhibit 661, with how many -enclosures? - -Mr. EISENBERG. There are three enclosures. - -Mr. DULLES. And the three enclosures; are they identified in any way? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, sir; they are subnumbered 10, 11 and 12. - -Mr. DULLES. With the subnumbers 10, 11 and 12. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 661 was marked, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are all these photographs accurate reproductions of -the prints appearing on the objects whose name is on the front of the -envelope in which the photographs are stored? - -Mr. LATONA. They are. - -Mr. EISENBERG. They were taken by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. LATONA. They were. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you identify by number, Mr. Latona, the photographs -of box A which contain prints of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. LATONA. I will have to do it in a negative fashion and tell you -that it is not 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, or 35. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Then it would be No. 25 which is in that sequence? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And did you mention 34? - -Mr. LATONA. I did not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So 34 would also be an identified print in that sequence? - -Mr. LATONA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you print anything on the back of these photographs, -Mr. Latona? - -Mr. LATONA. At the time I gave you the photographs I marked nothing on -them. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that any printing here would have been put on -subsequent to the time you prepared them? - -Mr. LATONA. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Referring specifically to a photograph I take at random, -which is No. 35, is this your handwriting? - -Mr. LATONA. It is not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. None of the printing appearing on the back of that -photograph? - -Mr. LATONA. It is not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Let the record state that, as will be dealt with -later, this printing was put on by Mr. Mandella of the New York -Police Department. Now in the case of box D, of which there are two -photographs, 7 and 13, could you state which was the photograph of -Oswald's print? - -Mr. LATONA. Thirteen. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Just to reiterate, in no case did you put writing on the -back of these photographs? - -Mr. LATONA. I did not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, did anyone else in the FBI examine the -objects which you have been discussing today---- - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. To determine whether the fingerprints of Lee Harvey -Oswald appeared on them? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was that person's name? - -Mr. LATONA. His name is Ronald G. Wittmus. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was his examination conducted independently of yours? - -Mr. LATONA. It was. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Who conducted the examination first? - -Mr. LATONA. In the case of the wrapping paper, I did. In the case of -the boxes I believe he did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the rifle? - -Mr. LATONA. I conducted the examination of the rifle. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The lift from the rifle? - -Mr. LATONA. Yes; directly. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the---- - -Mr. LATONA. Brown wrapping paper. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In any case when you conducted your examination first -did you tell Wittmus of your conclusions? - -Mr. LATONA. I did not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When Mr. Wittmus conducted his examination first did he -tell you of his conclusions? - -Mr. LATONA. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were his conclusions the same as yours? - -Mr. LATONA. Ultimately, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say, "ultimately"? - -Mr. LATONA. When the whole thing was completed. - -Mr. DULLES. There was no difference of views between you at any stage? - -Mr. LATONA. No, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did anyone who examined these various objects--as to -which you have testified--in the FBI laboratory come to a conclusion -different from the one you did? - -Mr. LATONA. They did not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were there any identifications of fingerprints as being -Lee Harvey Oswald's in addition to the ones which you have given us? - -Mr. LATONA. There were a number of identifications effected with latent -prints developed on personal effects. - -Mr. EISENBERG. No, sir; on the material you have testified as to today. - -Mr. LATONA. No; there were no others. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were any prints found--were the three fragmentary -prints found on the rifle, which were not sufficient for purposes of -identification, in any way inconsistent with the prints of Oswald which -you found? - -Mr. LATONA. Very definitely, no. I might point out that actually -what was visible was consistent, in the sense that even though there -were no ridge formations available for purposes of making a positive -conclusion, the indications were that the pattern types were there, -were consistent with the pattern types which were on the hands of Lee -Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. DULLES. As far as you know the conclusions of the Texas police -authorities who examined these objects, were your conclusions the same -as theirs, or was there any differences between you on this subject? - -Mr. LATONA. Frankly, I don't know what there conclusion was. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions. - -Mr. DULLES. Have you any questions, Mr. Murray? - -Mr. MURRAY. I have not. - -Mr. DULLES. I have no further questions. Thank you very much indeed, -Mr. Latona. You have been very helpful. I have learned a great deal -myself. - -Mr. LATONA. Thank you very much. - - -TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR MANDELLA, ACCOMPANIED BY LT. JOSEPH A. MOONEY, NEW -YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT, BUREAU OF CRIMINAL IDENTIFICATION - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Mandella, will you raise your right hand. - -Do you swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. MANDELLA. I do. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Mandella, could you give us your full name and -position? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Arthur Mandella. I am a detective on the New York Police -Department and I work at the bureau of criminal identification in that -department. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you briefly outline your qualifications as a -fingerprint identification expert, Mr. Mandella? - -Mr. MANDELLA. In 1945 to 1948 I was a fingerprint technician in the -U.S. Navy. My principal duties were the classification and filing of -fingerprints, the developing and photographing of latent fingerprints -found at crime scenes, the comparison of latent fingerprints with -suspects, and the searching of fingerprint files in general. - -From 1948 to 1953 I was employed by the U.S. Government as a criminal -investigator. However, my principal duties were the lifting and -developing and identification of latent fingerprints, also the -preparation of fingerprint exhibits for court presentation. From 1955 -to the present I have been employed by the New York Police Department -and assigned to the bureau of criminal identification as a fingerprint -technician and performing the same duties that I just outlined. During -these past 17 years I have been examining not only fingerprints but -palmprints and infant footprints as well. - -I graduated from the following fingerprint schools: in 1945, the U.S. -Naval Air Station; in 1948 I graduated from the Institute of Applied -Sciences, which is a fingerprint school, fingerprint and identification -school; in 1955 I graduated from the New York Police Fingerprint School -at the police academy; and in 1958 I attended an advanced latent -fingerprint course conducted by the FBI at the New York Police Academy. - -I am a fingerprint instructor for the New York Police Department Bureau -of Criminal Identification and lecture at various hospitals relative to -the proper techniques involved in footprinting the newborn. - -I am a qualified fingerprint expert and have testified in New York -State and Federal courts, including court-martials, relative to all -phases of fingerprints, palmprints, and footprints. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you venture a guess as to how many identifications -you have been called upon to make in the course of your work? - -Mr. MANDELLA. General identifications, I suppose, it runs into many -thousands. It is hard to pick a number. But it is certainly well into -the thousands of examinations. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may this witness be permitted to testify -as an expert witness on the subject of fingerprints? - -Mr. DULLES. Yes; he may. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Mandella, did you at my request examine certain -photographs of latent prints and compare them with photographs of inked -or known prints to determine whether there were identities between the -known and latent prints? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I hand you Commission Exhibits 656, 658, 659, 655, -657, 661, and 660. Could you briefly look through these and determine -whether these are the photographs which you examined? As you finish an -item, could you take a look at the Commission number and verify that -you looked at the photographs in that Commission envelope? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; I have examined the photographs contained in -Commission Exhibit No. 656. - -Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you would just state the number, in each case, -in each envelope? - -Mr. MANDELLA. In Commission Exhibit 656 there are 10 photos, 10 -photographs. And I have also examined Commission Exhibit No. 658, which -is one photograph. I also examined Commission Exhibit No. 659, which is -two photographs. I have also examined Commission Exhibit No. 655, which -is two photographs. I have examined Commission Exhibit No. 661, which -contains three photographs. I have examined Commission Exhibit No. -660, which contains eight photographs. I have also examined Commission -Exhibit No. 657, which contains three photographs. - -Mr. EISENBERG. 657 contains photographs of inked prints, is that -correct? - -Mr. MANDELLA. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The standard 10-finger chart and a right and left -palmprint? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which you have been informed by me and you see on the -writing on these charts are the prints of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. MANDELLA. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have any other knowledge that these are the -prints of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. MANDELLA. No; none whatsoever. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the remaining prints are photographs of what you -would call latent prints? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; they are. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you make markings on the backs of these prints, Mr. -Mandella? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; on quite a few of them I did. However, not all of -them. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you made those markings on the basis of--in your own -hand printing? - -Mr. MANDELLA. My own hand printing, for certain observations I wanted -recorded. - -Mr. DULLES. What is the nature of the marking? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Let's take a sample. I will pull one out at random -from Commission Exhibit 660. The topmost card says "Box B," which -corresponds to the label or the envelope 660--and that is No. 17. - -Mr. DULLES. Will you show those to the witness and see if he identifies -his own writing? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; I have made these notations. Yes; I do recognize -these. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The next one says "Box B" and "Negative--same as box 'D' -No. 7." - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You have seen these as you flipped through to identify -that these are the same photographs? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Let the record show that these photographs are -photographs of latent prints taken by or under the supervision of Mr. -Sebastian Latona, and he has just testified that these photographs -were taken of objects which were identified earlier in Commission -proceedings. Mr. Latona transmitted these photographs to me directly, -and I in turn transmitted them to Mr. Mandella and Mr. Mooney, who is -also present in this hearing room. - -Mr. Mandella, do you know what total number of identifiable -latent prints were contained in these exhibits that you just -identified--exclusive of 657, which contained the inked or known finger -and palm prints? - -Mr. MANDELLA. No; but I have this outline here. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Just approximately would you say how many identifiable -prints there were? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Thirty. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Some 30 odd prints? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Some 30. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And did you identify certain of those prints as being -the finger or palm prints of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you tell us which of those prints you so -identified? - -Mr. MANDELLA. There was a photograph, a photograph of the underside of -the gun barrel, Commission Exhibit No.---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is Commission Exhibit No. 658, and I will hand you -that photograph now. You are referring to this photograph? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And can you read the writing on the back of that? - -Mr. MANDELLA. "Right palm Oswald underside gun barrel." - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that in your handwriting? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; it is in my handwriting. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you determine what portion of the right palm that -was, Mr. Mandella? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; it is the right side of the right palm, this area -right here. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is the ulnar portion? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Pardon? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that sometimes called the ulnar portion? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; the ulnar side, or the small-bone side; yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you make any other identifications? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give the next one, please? - -Mr. MANDELLA. The photo marked "brown bag wrapping paper" Exhibit -No.---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is Exhibit 659, and that exhibit contains two -photographs which I now hand you, which are marked 659-A and 659-B? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And did you identify the prints in those photographs? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; on photograph No. 1---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you refer to the print on the back, 659-A or B? - -Mr. MANDELLA. On 659-B, as I called it, photo 1, is the No. 7 finger -which is the left index finger of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And do you have a note on the back of that picture? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; I do. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you read us that? - -Mr. MANDELLA. "Left index, Oswald brown bag wrapping paper." - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that is in your handwriting? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you say what portion of the left index finger of Lee -Harvey Oswald that is? - -Mr. MANDELLA. It is the bulb of the finger, a little to the right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is, by bulb you mean the central portion of the -distal phalanx? - -Mr. MANDELLA. The central portion to the right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Of the distal phalanx? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; the flesh joint; yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And 659-A? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Commission Exhibit No. 659, as I call it, photo No. 2, is -a palmprint and I identified this as the right side of the right palm -of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The right side would again be the ulnar? - -Mr. MANDELLA. It would be the ulnar side, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The little finger side? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That also has writing on the back of it, does it? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; it does. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you read that to us? - -Mr. MANDELLA. "Right palm, Oswald brown bag wrapping paper." - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that is in your own handwriting? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was there any handwriting when you got any of these -prints, by the way? - -Mr. MANDELLA. No; there wasn't. - -Mr. EISENBERG. All the prints were blank on the reverse side? - -Mr. MANDELLA. They were blank on the reverse side. There was -handwriting within the photographs but not---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is on the face of the photographs? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you proceed, Mr. Mandella? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Box A, photo No. 25. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is Commission Exhibit 656, and I will hand you -photo No. 25. - -Mr. MANDELLA. What was that number, 656? Numbers 25 and 34. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you Nos. 25 and 34. Could you identify No. 25 -first Mr. Mandella? - -Mr. MANDELLA. No. 25, Commission Exhibit No. 656, contains three -identifiable fingerprints, one of which, located in the center in a -whorl-type pattern, is the No. 2 finger or the right index finger of -Lee Harvey Oswald. The fingerprints on the right and the left do not -belong to Lee Harvey Oswald but the one in the center, the whorl-type -pattern, is his No. 2 finger. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which is that now again, the right-hand index finger? - -Mr. MANDELLA. The No. 2 finger, which is the right index finger, and -again the first joint, the bulb of the finger. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The bulb of the distal phalanx? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Of the right index finger? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. For clarity, where were these taken? What were these taken -from? - -Mr. EISENBERG. This was taken from box A---- - -Mr. DULLES. Box A? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which I believe is a 10 rolling reader carton. Is there -printing or handwriting on the back of that photograph 25? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; there is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you read it to us? - -Mr. MANDELLA. "Center impression No. 2 finger Oswald from Box -A photo--latent on left unidentified--Photo Nos. 25 and 27 -identical--Negative with Oswald unidentified." - -Mr. EISENBERG. "Negative with Oswald," are you referring now to two -of the three photographs--two of the three prints appearing on the -photograph? - -Mr. MANDELLA. That is right, two prints, exactly, the one in the -center, of course I am not in reference to the one in the center, which -is his. The two on the right and left are unidentified. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And No. 34, Mr. Mandella? - -Mr. MANDELLA. No. 34, Commission Exhibit 656, is a palmprint from the -left palm of Lee Harvey Oswald, the left palm section of course, the -ulnar side again of the left side of the left palm. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And do you have a note on the back of that? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; I do. "Oswald's left palm--left side." - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that again is in your own handwriting, is it Mr. -Mandella? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Any other identifications? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; there is one more on box D, photo No. 13. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is Exhibit 655, which contains two photographs, and -I will extract the photograph labeled "13." - -Mr. MANDELLA. Commission Exhibit 655, photo No. 13, the right palmprint -of Lee Harvey Oswald. The section here is at the heel of the palm in -the center. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In the center of the palm? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You were just pointing to the lower portion of the palm, -which you refer to as the heel? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; this is the portion of Oswald's palm. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is there handwriting or printing on the back of that -photograph? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; there is. "Right palm--Oswald--heel of hand." - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that is your handwriting, is it, Mr. Mandella? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So you made a total of six identifications? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now when you made these identifications--or, I -should say, when you received the photographs and when you made the -identifications, did you have any knowledge of any kind as to how many, -if any, prints of Oswald's were found among the many impressions which -were given to you? - -Mr. MANDELLA. I had no idea, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were you aware in any way of the conclusions of any -other body concerning these impressions? - -Mr. MANDELLA. I knew nothing about any examination by anyone. - -Mr. EISENBERG. At an unofficial level, had you seen anything in the -newspapers which would indicate any information on these? - -Mr. MANDELLA. In the newspaper several months ago there was reference -to a--I don't even recall whether it was fingerprints or palmprints or -both but there was some reference in the newspaper I had seen, and that -is all. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is all you recall about it? - -Mr. MANDELLA. That is all I recall. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you pay any attention to that in making your -identifications? - -Mr. MANDELLA. No; it didn't affect me at all, nothing to do with the -identifications. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is your general attitude toward items you see like -this in the newspapers, by the way? - -Mr. MANDELLA. In the newspapers? It doesn't mean a thing. Attitude -relative to fingerprints? - -Mr. EISENBERG. I am trying to determine how far this might influence -you in your evaluation, and I wonder as a police officer what your -opinion is when you read accounts in newspapers of evidence in crimes. - -Mr. MANDELLA. No; it doesn't affect me other than for general -information purposes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did I transmit to you any information whatsoever -concerning these prints? - -Mr. MANDELLA. You did not, other than giving me the photographs. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did I tell you that any of these prints might be Lee -Harvey Oswald's? - -Mr. MANDELLA. You made no indication as to that it could have been his. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you know now, apart from your own identification, -have you acquired any information at this point, subsequent to your -identification but prior to your appearance here, as to these prints, -other than your own identifications? - -Mr. MANDELLA. I have no knowledge as to what has been done with these -prints at all by anyone. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are you absolutely sure as to each of these -identifications, Mr. Mandella? - -Mr. MANDELLA. I am positive. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Mandella, are you familiar with the contention of -some persons that 12 points are needed for identification of finger or -palm prints? - -Mr. MANDELLA. No I am not, no. Positive identifications are effected by -the expert himself; 12 points are not necessary. A sufficient amount -determined by the expert is the important factor. - -Mr. DULLES. About how many? Have you any test as to how many points? - -Mr. MANDELLA. I can't give a definite number, but I'd say in -generalities five or six or seven points certainly should be enough, -depending on their uniqueness and frequency. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is the lowest number to which you have testified in -court, Mr. Mandella. - -Mr. MANDELLA. The lowest that I can recall I testified to, five points. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was there a conviction secured in that case? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; there was. Of course, I don't recall if the -fingerprint was the thing that caused the conviction, but it was part -of the testimony. - -Mr. DULLES. In most of these cases where you have made an -identification, have there been more than five points of identity? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Well, it seems to run between, somewhere between 6, 7, -8, 9, 10 and 11, and in some cases more. It depends on how much of the -finger or palm that you have, how many characteristics are contained in -that area. - -Mr. DULLES. My question was directed to the specific prints that you -have, photographs of prints that you have examined. - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; it usually verges on 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12. - -Mr. DULLES. In the cases of these identifications that you have made? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Oh, no. Some--we have many more characteristics in some -of these identifications here today. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I think Commissioner Dulles is referring to cases -previous to this. - -Mr. DULLES. I was referring to both. First I was asking you in general -how many do you consider are necessary, and secondly how many did you -find in these particular cases that you have examined in the Oswald -case? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Oh. Would you like me to---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have that information? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Fine. - -Mr. MANDELLA. Of course these characteristics that I point out are the -ones that I see and in some cases there is a few more, but these are -the ones that are very definite and outstanding. - -On the gun barrel, I forget the Commission exhibit number, there was 11 -points of identity. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is 658? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Commission Exhibit 658. There was 11 points of identity -on that particular palmprint. - -Mr. DULLES. That is exactly what I wanted. - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; now the brown wrapping paper bag, Commission's -Exhibit 659---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. There is 659-A and B here. The one you have marked "left -index Oswald"? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Is that A? - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is what I have marked "B." That is Commission -Exhibit 659-B. - -Mr. MANDELLA. Then No. 2, 659-A is the palmprint. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is marked "right palm"? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Right palm, and there is 18 points, 18 characteristics -that are very outstanding and in this case possibly more too. - -Now in Commission's Exhibit 659-B---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is marked "left index Oswald"? - -Mr. MANDELLA. It is the left index finger--Lee Harvey Oswald, there is -11 points of identity and possibly a few more. In Commission Exhibit -656 which is the No. 2 finger or the right index finger of Lee Harvey -Oswald, there is 11 points, that is the whorl-type pattern. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me a second Mr. Mandella. That is No. 25 center -impression, marked by you "center impression No. 2 finger--Oswald," is -that correct? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; that is correct. And there is 11 points of identity -or characteristic. - -Mr. EISENBERG. On No. 34? - -Mr. MANDELLA. No. 34, the palmprint. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is marked by you "Oswald left palm--left side"? - -Mr. DULLES. Palmprint on the box is it? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; box A. - -Mr. DULLES. Box A? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; 18 points of identity I found on that particular -exhibit. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you check your notes on that? - -Mr. MANDELLA. I can explain this. On the reverse side I have 13 to 16 -points. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is the reverse side of number---- - -Mr. MANDELLA. It is the reverse side of Commission Exhibit 656. -However, after going over this and looking at it again I found several -more. Of course in this case it is still more than 18. But 18 that can -be readily seen and recognized. And then Commission exhibit finally---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. 655? - -Mr. MANDELLA. 655. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Box D. - -Mr. MANDELLA. Photo No. 13, the right palmprint of Oswald, and there is -eight points of identity on that one. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Mandella, do you have any opinion concerning the -ability to determine the freshness of a fingerprint? - -Mr. MANDELLA. It is very difficult to tell. However, you can determine -if it was left within say a few days, but certainly you can't pinpoint -it. You can't say it was there so many hours or so many days. How many -days I don't know, but in the developing of fingerprints we will say -on an ashtray on this Commission desk here, if we just touch it now, -as opposed to a fingerprint being left there several days ago, the -impression that we recently left, as we applied powder to it to bring -it about would naturally come out sooner because of the freshness of -the oils on our fingers. - -The others would come out, if we kept processing or powdering it with a -brush. They would later come out too. So this is the only indication to -me then, that the first ones that appear then were recently left. And -in this you can't even say this definitely either. It is very difficult -because at certain times it could be a little more oil on someone's -fingers and this could last longer and appear to be fresher. So it is -very difficult to tell positively. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What you are describing is freshness, relative -freshness, between one print and another, rather than absolute -freshness of any given print? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; that is true. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now I give you Commission Exhibit No. 139, which is a -rifle, and ask you whether you think if you developed a print on a -steel portion of the rifle you could testify as to whether this was a -fresh or a stale print? - -Mr. MANDELLA. No; I couldn't tell. I couldn't tell especially on steel -or on wood here whether it is fresh or not. By itself of course too, -with nothing around it, you couldn't tell. It is impossible, as a -matter of fact. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 649, which consists -of a piece torn off of a cardboard type of box, and appearing on that -is a powder impression under a tape, of which you have seen actually a -photograph, Mr. Mandella. - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. If you had developed that impression, do you think you -would testify as to relative freshness? - -Mr. MANDELLA. In this case, with this cardboard, in my own -experience--I assume the medium used here is powder---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; I believe so. - -Mr. MANDELLA. To develop it. If it comes out this fresh, I would have -to assume that it was left there recently. But how recently I can't -pinpoint that. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Within 3 days? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Oh, definitely I would say within 3 days. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Within 2 days? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes; I would say within about a day, a day and a half, -because the cardboard is very porous and it would normally draw the -oils, the perspiration, and it would disappear. - -However, we do have an impression here with powder. That means that it -was quite fresh, in my own opinion anyway. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Mandella, I can see that you have taken notes, -numerous notes on the fingerprints, including those you didn't -identify. I wonder whether we could introduce those as a Commission -exhibit, rather than going through those one by one. Would you part -with those? We could supply you with a copy later. - -Lieutenant MOONEY. I have the rough. It will only take us a couple -minutes to---- - -Mr. DULLES. We would be very glad to give you a photograph copy of it. - -Mr. MANDELLA. That is all I need. That is fine. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are handing me two pages, and these contain your -original notes concerning the fingerprints? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. These contain your notes not only as to the fingerprints -you identified, but those which you did not identify against a known -print which you were given? - -Mr. MANDELLA. That is right. There were quite a few fingerprints that -didn't belong to Oswald. However, they belonged to one another. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is to say, you found two prints which were -identical to each other? - -Mr. MANDELLA. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Two latents which were identical to each other? - -Mr. MANDELLA. That is right, but to whom they belong I have no idea. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have these notes admitted as -Commission Exhibit No. 662? - -Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted as Exhibit 662. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 662 was marked for identification, and received -in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Mandella, is there anything you would like to add to -your testimony here? - -Mr. MANDELLA. Nothing other than what I already mentioned. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I have no further questions. - -Mr. DULLES. We thank you then Mr. Mandella, very much. I didn't catch -your name. - -Lieutenant MOONEY. Lieutenant Mooney. Glad to have been of service. - -Mr. DULLES. Would you please express to the Commissioner on behalf -of the Chief Justice and the Commission our grateful thanks to you -for the work that you have done, and it is greatly appreciated, and -also express on my own personal behalf--I know the Commissioner--my -appreciation for the cooperation he has given to the Commission. - -Lieutenant MOONEY. Thank you, sir. We are glad to have been of service. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I say that these two gentlemen both -interrupted their vacation to come here, and they have been working -practically night and day in order to meet with our time demands for -testimony. - -Mr. DULLES. We deeply appreciate that. - -Mr. MANDELLA. Glad to have helped in any way. - -Mr. DULLES. The Commission will stand adjourned until tomorrow morning -at 9 o'clock. - -(Whereupon, at 1:10 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned.) - - - - -_Friday, April 3, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF PAUL MORGAN STOMBAUGH AND JAMES C. CADIGAN - -The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on April 3, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman and Mr. Allen W. -Dulles, member. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel; Melvin Aron -Eisenberg, Assistant Counsel; and Charles Murray, Observer. - - -TESTIMONY OF PAUL MORGAN STOMBAUGH - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order. The purpose of today's -hearing is to take the testimony of Paul Stombaugh and James C. -Cadigan. Mr. Stombaugh is a hair and fiber expert with the FBI, and Mr. -Cadigan is a questioned documents expert with the FBI. They have been -asked to provide technical information to assist the Commission in its -work. - -This is just to advise you of the nature of the interrogation today. - -Will you rise: Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to -give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and -nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. Mr. Eisenberg, you may proceed with -the examination. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Stombaugh, could you state your full name and your -position? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Paul M., for Morgan, Stombaugh. I am a Special Agent of -the Federal Bureau of Investigation, assigned to the hair and fiber -unit of the FBI laboratory as a hair and fiber examiner. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is your education, Mr. Stombaugh? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I have a Bachelor of Science degree in Biology from -Furman University, Greenville, S.C., and I received a 1-year period -of specialized training in the hair and fiber field in the laboratory -under the supervision of the other experts. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How long have you been in the hair and fiber field? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Since 1960. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you approximate the number of examinations you -have made in this field? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I have made several thousand hair examinations and about -twice as many fiber examinations. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you testified in court? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; I have testified in approximately 28 States, -both federal and local courts, as an expert. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like permission to examine the -witness as an expert in this area. - -The CHAIRMAN. The witness is qualified. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Stombaugh, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. -140, which for the record consists of a blanket which was found in -the garage of Mr. and Mrs. Paine, and a piece of string marked Paine -Exhibit No. 2, and I ask you whether you are familiar with these items? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; I am. My mark is here on the blanket, and -when this was received in the FBI laboratory this string was around a -portion of it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you tell us what your mark is exactly, Mr. -Stombaugh? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Due to the fact this was a piece of fabric and hard to -mark, I put a piece of evidence tape on the blanket, stapled it to the -blanket, and put my initials "PMS" with the date 11-23-63 thereon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When did you receive this blanket, Mr. Stombaugh? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This was approximately 7:30 a.m., on the morning of -November 23, 1963. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe the shape of the blanket and the -position of the string, Paine Exhibit 2, when you received it? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. May I use this? - -Mr. EISENBERG. What you are holding up is a piece of paper which--will -you describe it, please? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This is a piece of kraft paper approximately the same -shape as this blanket. When I received the blanket, it had been folded -together with both ends even; a slight triangle had been folded into -one corner of the blanket, and another fold had been taken into the -blanket thus. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say "thus," you are folding the piece of kraft -paper, and is the paper now folded into approximately--in a manner -approximating the way the blanket was folded when you received it? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have permission to introduce the -piece of paper which the witness has so folded? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be so admitted. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Commission Exhibit 663. - -(Commission Exhibit 663 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. There is a safety pin inserted into Exhibit 663, Mr. -Stombaugh. Was there an equivalent safety pin on the blanket? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; there was a much larger safety pin attached -to the blanket in approximately the same place as the small pin in the -piece of paper. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, the blanket is folded so as to approximate -approximately a right angle triangle, and the safety pin is at one -angle of that triangle opposite the right angle, is that correct? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The safety pin would be at the vertex of the right -angle---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now---- - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Of the triangle. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were there any distinctive creases in the blanket? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; there were. There was one crease at the base, which -would be the base of the right triangle, a very slight crease. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you mark that with the letter "A" please, on the -Exhibit 663? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This is opposite--this is the side facing the angle at -which the safety pin is inserted, is that correct? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. It would be the base of the triangle. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The base of the triangle---- - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. There was also another crease I found upon removing the -safety pin and opening the blanket; I found that one end of the blanket -had been folded in approximately 7 inches. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is the relationship between that and the end which -you have just marked "A," is that the opposite side? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That would be the opposite side of the blanket. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you mark that "B"? - -What was the relationship between the amount which the blanket was -folded on the side "A" and the amount which it was folded on side "B," -that is, were the folds approximately equal, or if different, how -different, in length? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The one, the fold marked "A" was not as great as the -fold marked "B." The fold marked "B" was approximately 7 inches, the -fold marked "A" was less than 7 inches. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Proceed. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. There was one other crease in the blanket which was more -or less a hump approximately 10 inches long, located approximately -midway between the blanket, between--it is very difficult to describe -the location. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you point to it, and maybe we can describe it? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Approximately in this area. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This is, approximately midway between the side at which -the fold marked "A" appears and the side at which the fold marked "B" -appears? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct, approximately midway. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you mark that fold or crease "C"? Was this a fold -or a crease, Mr. Stombaugh? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This was a very slight crease. It appeared as a hump in -the blanket. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was there any item in the blanket, any object in the -blanket, which might have been causing that hump? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Not when I opened it, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you form an opinion as to what might cause that hump -to exist in the blanket? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; it would have had to have been a hard object, -approximately 10 inches in length, which protruded upward, causing the -yarns in the blanket to stretch in this area, and it would have had to -have been tightly placed in the blanket to cause these yarns to stretch. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, when you say the object was 10 inches long, do you -mean that the object itself was 10 inches long or that there was an -object 10 inches--an object protruding at a point 10 inches from the -place you have marked "A"? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No, sir; the object itself would have had to have been -approximately 10 inches long to have caused this hump. - -Mr. EISENBERG. It couldn't have been longer than 10 inches? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Not at this point; no, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could it have proceeded past that point marked "C," that -is, could the object have been placed so that its base was at "C"--so -that its base was at "A"? Is it possible that the object as it lay in -the blanket passed "C" but with a protrusion at "C"? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; this is quite possible. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is possible? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This is quite possible. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were there any other folds or creases, Mr. Stombaugh? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir. - -At the upper, call it the upper portion of the triangle, there were -some creases in the blanket which had been caused by a piece of string -which had been securely wrapped around the blanket at this point. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you mark the area "D," where those creases -occurred? - -Is the string you are referring to the Paine Exhibit 2 which you -earlier identified? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was that wrapped around the blanket when you received it? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; this was loosely wrapped around the blanket -at this point. From an examination of the blanket itself and these -creases, it was apparent that this string had been tied around the -blanket while something was inside this blanket, and the string had -been tied rather tight in order for these creases to have remained in -the blanket. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In other words, the creases remained in the blanket -although there was no object in it when you received it---- - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which would account for the creases, is that correct? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you therefore deduced there had been an object in -the blanket preceding your examination? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you notice anything else about the blanket which you -would like to relate, Mr. Stombaugh? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The blanket exhibited much wear. - -Mr. EISENBERG. We are just talking now about the shape, of course. We -will be getting into composition later. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No, sir; I cannot think of anything else at this time. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In your opinion, would the blanket have made a secure -package wrapped in the way and manner that it appeared to you? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; it would have. With the crease at fold "A," -had it been folded down, it would have made a very snug and secure -package containing some type of item in it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Stombaugh, was there anything about the string, -Paine Exhibit 2, which would make an identification possible? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No, sir; the string is just common white cotton string. -It is found in most stores throughout the country, and used for, well, -many uses. There is nothing distinctive about the string itself which -could be traced as to manufacturer or any definite use it was made for. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Any distinctive accidental markings on it? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; I found none. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What kind--was it tied in a knot? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; it was tied in a granny knot, and also a bow -knot. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you illustrate that for us? You are holding up a -piece of string? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This is another piece of string, not the original. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Not the original. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. A granny knot is a common knot, tied with two simple -thumb knots. It is a very hard knot to open as opposed to the boy scout -knot, or the square knot rather, which is tied in this manner. This -knot is very easy to open because all one has to do is to pull one free -end of it and the other free end slides out. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are referring to the so-called "boy scout" knot? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. It is actually not a boy scout knot but a square knot. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you tie that left over right, right over left, is -that the formula? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; left over right and right over left. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How do you spell that, by the way? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. G-r-a-n-n-y. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The granny knot, Mr. Stombaugh, is this a common or an -uncommon knot? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. It is a very common knot. I believe that knot is tied -more than any other knot because it is right over right, right over -right, and it is usually used by people wrapping packages who want it -tied securely so the package will not come open. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you say there was also a bow knot? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you illustrate that? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This is the type of knot we use when we tie our shoe -strings. It is made by forming a loop with the one free end, and -wrapping the other free end around it and pulling it through. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that a hard or an easy knot to slip out, Mr. -Stombaugh? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This is very easy, because you just take one of the -loose ends and pull it and the knot falls apart. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was the relationship between the granny knot and -the bow knot? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I don't know. I have seen this numerous times, on -numerous different occasions when one would either tie a granny knot or -a square knot and follow it up with a bow knot. The granny knot would -be to secure the package so it would not come loose. The bow knot is a -temporary knot tied by one who wants the string to come off easily. - -Now why they would tie a granny knot and follow this up with a bow knot -I don't know, unless they had some long loose ends which they wanted to -slacken up, shorten up, rather, so as they would not be hanging down. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The Exhibit Paine No. 2 is tied into a knot at this -point. Can you tell us what kind of a knot that is? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This was a simple bow knot which I put into it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You put it into it? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So the knot does not reproduce the knots as you found -them originally? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; they do not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Stombaugh, I wonder if you could tie the -demonstration piece of string you have been using into the granny knot -and bow knot, in the manner in which you received it. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. There is the granny knot and here is the bow knot. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are not here trying to approximate the diameter or -the circumference of the string, but only the knots? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I admit this string as an illustrative -exhibit? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be done. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be 664, Mr. reporter. - -(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 664, and -received into evidence.) - -Now, Mr. Stombaugh, did you examine this blanket to determine its -composition? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give us your conclusions? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The blanket is composed of a very small percentage of -brown and green woolen fibers; an average of about 30 percent to 40 -percent of brown and green cotton fibers, and the remaining portion -brown and green delustered viscose fibers. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say "a very small portion of brown and green -woolen fibers," could you be more specific; was it in the neighborhood -of 1 percent or 10 percent? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I was unable to obtain a definite percentage. This is a -rather long, involved, and inaccurate method of determination because -one would need a brand new blanket to get a good quantitative analysis. - -However, in the samples of the fabric that I made, I found -approximately 1 to 2 percent woolen fibers, 20 to, I would say, 30, 35 -percent cotton fibers, and the remainder of it viscose fibers. This is -just an approximation from the microscopic slide that I made. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you have any reason to believe that the -approximation was not made from a fair sample of the blanket? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; I wouldn't. I took the sample myself. - -However, the blanket is very well worn. Most of the nap has been -worn off of it. It has had a lot of use, and much of the original -composition has been worn off. Now, whether or not this same percentage -of composition is missing from use or not I wouldn't be able to -determine, but I would say that the approximation that I had given is -fairly accurate for the blanket in its present condition. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Stombaugh, could you explain to us briefly how you -were able to distinguish the three fibers, cotton, wool, and viscose? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir. This chart shows the difference in the textile -fibers when one observes them under a microscope. A cotton fiber -appears to be, or rather, might be compared with an ordinary soda straw -which has been flattened. You can see here that the fiber is hollow. -The hollow is known as the lumen in cotton. The fiber is flattened and -twisted much as teenagers do to soda straws in drug stores when they -twist and crush the soda straws. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Pardon me, Mr. Stombaugh: this chart is a chart labeled -"Textile Fibers," and having three illustrations labeled "Cotton," -"Wool," and "Viscose"? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -A woolen fiber actually is a hair which originates from an animal and -is composed of three basic parts, the outer part being the scales -which are the rough area on the outside of the hair, the inner portion -known as the cortex, and a center portion known as the medulla. -Microscopically this is what you would look for to identify wool. - -Viscose is a synthetic fiber that is made by man. It is composed of -chemicals, and is very rough around the outside area, having many -striations running through it. The viscose fiber I have drawn here is -what we would term a lustrous fiber. It does not have the delustering -agent added to it, to cut down the luster. If this were a delustered -fiber then we would have millions of small spots on the outside of this -fiber which have been placed there chemically so as to cut down the -luster of the fiber. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was the viscose in the blanket that we have been -examining lustered or delustered? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This was delustered. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I introduce the chart which the -witness has been discussing as 665? - -This chart was prepared by you or under your supervision, Mr. Stombaugh? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. It was prepared by me. - -The CHAIRMAN. What is the number? - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be 665. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 665 was marked, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Stombaugh, did you examine this blanket to determine -whether any debris was present? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I did. I scraped the blanket and removed all the -foreign textile fibers and hairs and placed them into a pillbox. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe to us how this scraping was performed? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir. We suspend the blanket from a rack in the -laboratory, place a clean sheet of kraft paper on a table directly -under it and, using a spatula, thoroughly scrape it down. This knocks -all the foreign material adhering to the blanket from the blanket, -and it falls down to the paper. After we have thoroughly cleaned the -blanket, then we scrape up all the debris and place it in the pillboxes -for a microscopic examination. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Why do you use this scrape method, as opposed to a -fine-filter vacuum cleaner? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. We have found that the fine-filtered vacuum cleaner -pulls all of the dirt and old debris from a blanket which are embedded -on the inner portion of the fabric. We are not interested in this -material. We are interested only in what is adhering to the top -surface, which has been put there most recently. Through experience in -the laboratory we have found this method to be the best so far. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that by use of the scrape you gathered the more -recent debris, as opposed to the older debris? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And what type of debris did you find, Mr. Stombaugh? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I found numerous foreign textile fibers of various types -and colors, as well as a number of limb and pubic hairs. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you draw any conclusions as to those hairs upon your -initial examination of them? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I did. They all had originated from a person of the -Caucasian race and I compared these hairs with hair samples obtained -from Harvey Oswald---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is, Lee Harvey Oswald, and I found that of the limb -and pubic hairs I removed from the blanket, several matched Oswald's in -all observable microscopic characteristics and could have originated -from Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You said these hairs were from a person of Caucasian -race. Can you explain how you can tell the difference between hairs of -the various types of races? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir. Going back to my charts, I have a chart here -which contains a diagram of a hair. This isn't any particular hair, -this is a type of hair that could be animal or human. I am just using -this to give one an idea of what a hair looks like. - -First, we have the root, which is the portion of the hair embedded in -the scalp or in the skin, whichever type hair it might be. - -(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. And from the root, extending out and growing, is the -shaft of the hair, and the very distal end of that is the tip. - -If we were to take this hair and place it under a microscope, this -is what we would see. We find that the hair basically consists, in -the shaft area, of scales composing the outside portion of the hair. -Directly under the scales is the cortex. Now the scales vary in size -and shape among animal and human hairs. The cortex also varies. Running -through the center of the hair shaft, much as the lead in the center of -a lead pencil, is what is known as the medulla. - -The medulla is nothing more than air cells running through the center -of the hairshaft. - -In the cortex of the hair are small granules which appear under a -microscope like tiny grains of sand. These are known as the hair -pigment. This is the part of the hair that gives the hair its color, -whether it is blond, dark brown, black, or what-have-you. - -Also present in the cortex you will occasionally find air spaces -located among the pigment granules which are known as cortical fusi. -These will vary in size, shape, form, and location on the hair. Many -hairs do not have any. - -Basically that is what a hair looks like, and the basic component parts -of the hair. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 666, this diagram of the -hair? - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes; it may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 666 was marked, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Now, keeping the diagram of the hair on the side -where we can refer to it, our first differentiation in the hair, of -course, would be separating the human from the animal hairs. These are -photomicrographs of human hairs which I took through a microscope. - -Here are the animal hairs. - -The first thing we look for, of course, would be the color, length, -and texture of the hair. This comes from experience from looking at -thousands of hairs, and we can usually pick one up and tell by the -naked eye whether it is animal or human. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Pardon me. You are referring to a chart which has on the -upper right, "Human Hairs" and on the upper left, "Animal Hairs" as -captions? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -However, when we place these hairs under a microscope we find that -animal hairs vary from human hairs in many different aspects. - -One, the medullary structure. In animal hair the medullary structure -is much wider than that in a human hair. You will find that it exceeds -more than one-third of the width of the hair shaft. - -Secondly, the shape of the medulla, as in this rabbit hair, varies -greatly. You can see the individual medullary cells very distinctly. In -this chart I have some photographs of human hairs in which a medulla is -not present. But the medulla in a human hair would look just about like -this, very thin. - -We move down to the pigmentation of the hair, which is located in the -cortex. In the human hair the pigmentation is very fine and granular, -and in this animal hair it is very coarse and elongated. - -The size and shape of a root on the animal hair differs from the size -and shape of the root in the human hair. Here we see the root of a dog -hair which is very long and very thin. The root of a human hair is more -or less shaped similar to a light bulb. The scales of animal hairs are -very large. The scales of the human hairs are much smaller. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this chart which the witness -has been using introduced as 667? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The chart referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 667, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are looking at a new chart called "Racial -Determination of Hairs" with the subcaption "General Appearance of -Shaft"? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -Once we have separated the animal hairs from the human hairs, our -next problem is determining the race of the individual from whom the -particular human hairs in which we are interested originated. - -Looking at the hair under low power--under a low-power microscope--we -find that a Caucasian hair differs from the hair of the Negroid or -Mongoloid race in diameter fluctuation. The hair shaft varies in width -through its entire length. I might take, for instance, this yellow or -this black pencil. Here we find that the diameter of the pencil is -uniform through the entire length. Now, if we would twist this pencil -we would change the diameter of the pencil slightly. This would be so -in a Caucasian hair, where there might be slight fluctuations in a -hair, such as a person with wavy hair would have a slight fluctuation. -The person with straight hair has hair shafts which for all practical -purposes, are uniform in diameter the entire length. - -In Negroid hair, there is great fluctuation. Their hair is very curly -and kinky. This is caused by the great fluctuation present in their -hairs. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You mean in the diameters? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; diameters. - -In Mongoloid hair, which includes Asiatic and North American Indians, -there is little or no fluctuation present in their hairs. - -Going back to the Caucasian hair, the color of the Caucasian -individual's hair differs from black to blond and, of course, white. - -Negroid hairs are dense black usually; some are white. There are a few -exceptions here where we find some redheaded persons of this race. The -Mongoloids are always black, but not quite as dense black as those of -the Negroid race. - -The texture of the hair: Caucasian head hairs, are very soft, flexible; -Negroid hairs are very stiff and wiry; and Mongoloid hairs are -flexible, but not as soft and flexible as the Caucasian. - -Now, as to the general width, or rather diameter, of the shaft, we find -Caucasian is medium, the Negroid is medium, the Mongoloid hairs are -much larger than either the Negroid or the Caucasian. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this chart which the witness has been -discussing marked as 668, Mr. Chairman? - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. - -(Commission's Exhibit No. 668 was marked, and received in evidence.) - -The CHAIRMAN. May we take a recess at this time just for a few moments. - -(Short recess.) - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Eisenberg, would you proceed? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, sir. Mr. Stombaugh, you were discussing the -characteristics of Caucasian as opposed to Negroid and Mongoloid hair. -Could you proceed with that discussion? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I have another chart here. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is labeled "Racial Determination of Hairs" and -unlike chart 668 it has no subcaption under that general caption, is -that correct? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. In the previous chart I used I had -taken some photographs of hairs under relatively low power, 100 -diameters. - -In this chart I have enlarged the hairs, taking them under -approximately 400 diameters, so we can look into the hair. Here we -begin to see the real differences between the hairs among the various -races. - -In the Caucasian race, the cuticle, in other words, the layer of scales -around the outside of the hair, is medium to thick. - -In the Negroid hair the cuticle is very thick. In the Mongoloid hair -the cuticle is very thick. - -Pigmentation in the cortex, which gives the hair the color, in -Caucasian hair is very fine to coarse and is very evenly distributed -throughout the cortex of the hair. In Negroid hair the pigment is -medium to coarse, but the big difference is that the pigment granules -are clumped together, leaving large white-gapped areas throughout the -cortex of the hair. - -In the Mongoloid hair, the pigment is medium to coarse but it is -very heavily distributed throughout the hair. As you can see, in the -Caucasian hair the cortex is relatively light. In Negroid hair it is -clumped, and in Mongoloid hair it is dense. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this chart admitted as 669? - -Mr. DULLES. It is admitted as 669. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 669 was marked, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. You have a chart here "Racial Determination of Hairs," -and no subcaption, is that right? - -Mr. DULLES. You haven't asked for this other to be admitted, have you? - -Mr. EISENBERG. No; I will ask after he has finished with it. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Occasionally we will run into situations in hairs, -where we cannot determine with any certainty whether or not the hairs -are of the Caucasian or Negroid or Mongoloid race, by examining it -longitudinally, and we have to make a cross-section of the hair. If -we make a cross-section of the hair it is the same as taking a banana -and cutting off a very thin slice of the banana and placing it under a -microscope and examining it. We find in the Caucasian race the hairs -are oval in shape. In the Negroid race the hairs are flat, and have -a flattened appearance, and in the Mongoloid race they are perfectly -round. This is another characteristic which we use in determining the -racial origin of hair. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this chart admitted as 670? - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 670 was marked, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was it definitely established in your mind as a result -of the various characteristics you have explained that the hairs found -in the blanket were Caucasian hairs? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; they were all Caucasian hairs. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine those hairs and compare them with any -known samples to determine whether they might have come from any -specific individual? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion on that score? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I examined the hairs found on the blanket and determined -that most of them were limb and pubic hairs. In other words, they -originated either from the leg or the arm or from the pubic area. I -found several head hairs on the blanket also. - -These hairs I compared with known hair samples from Lee Harvey Oswald. -I found several of the limb hairs from the blanket and several of the -pubic hairs from the blanket matched in all observable microscopic -characteristics, and concluded these hairs could have come from Oswald. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Where did you get the known sample, Mr. Stombaugh, of -Lee Oswald's hair? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. These were obtained and were sent to the laboratory by -the FBI office in Dallas. - -I do not know whether the agent in Dallas personally took the samples -or had a member of the Dallas Police Department take the samples. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were these hairs taken from one area or were they a -representative sample? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. It was a fairly good representative sample. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you review the microscopic characteristics which -led you to your conclusion, Mr. Stombaugh? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This chart contains a photomicrograph of Oswald's pubic -hairs. This is just a very small area taken of a glass microscope slide -containing the hairs. There were numerous other hairs. The photograph -on the right shows one of the hairs I removed from the blanket, and one -of the hairs from Oswald, showing, generally, the match. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, did you take these photographs on the left and -right side yourself? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This chart is captioned on the left "Photomicrograph -of Oswald's Pubic Hairs" and on the right "Hair from the Blanket" and -"Hair from Oswald"? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have it admitted? - -(The item referred to was marked as Commission Exhibit No. 672, and -received into evidence.) - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question? The one on the right seems darker -than the one on the left, the hair itself. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This one and this one? - -Mr. DULLES. What is it? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Are you referring---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. The hair shown on the right appears darker. - -Mr. DULLES. There are two specimens there or two---- - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Two. - -Mr. DULLES. That is what I thought. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. You are thinking this hair looks darker than this one? - -Mr. DULLES. No; I was thinking that both the hairs on the right, which -I understand were taken from Oswald---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. One hair was actually from the blanket, one from Oswald. - -Mr. DULLES. Seems darker than the ones taken from the blanket. Is the -left the blanket? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This portion here is one separate hair. This was taken -from the blanket. - -Mr. DULLES. That was taken from the blanket. The right-hand is taken -from the blanket and the left-hand hairs were taken from Oswald himself? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; these are from Oswald. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This is a comparison shot. This photograph was taken -through two microscopes simultaneously showing how this portion of a -pubic hair from the blanket matched a pubic hair from Oswald, which is -this portion of the photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are pointing to the right side of the chart 672? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; this photograph was taken at 100 diameters and this -photograph was taken at 400 diameters. There is a difference there also. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you state that again please? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The photograph on the left was taken approximately at -100 diameters. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is Oswald's pubic hairs, a known sample? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; this is a general shot of his known sample. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the one on the right? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The one on the right was taken at approximately 400 -diameters. - -Mr. DULLES. This is the blanket sample? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This is a hair from the blanket compared with Oswald's. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You have three photographs on this chart, of which two -are known Oswald hairs, the photograph on the left and one of the two -photographs on the right? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Actually, this is one photograph taken through a -comparison microscope. We are looking at two different hairs at the -same time. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. Well, when you say this is one photograph you -are pointing to the one on the right but, as I understand it, the -photograph on the right shows two different hairs? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. One of which is Oswald's hair, a known sample? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the other of which was obtained from the blanket? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the photograph on the left shows known samples of -Oswald's pubic hairs? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So we have in effect two views of Oswald's pubic hairs, -one on the left and one half of the composite photograph on the right? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Following up on Mr. Dulles' question, the photograph on -the right seems to have a much coarser and somewhat darker structure -in both the known and the questioned sample than the photograph on the -left, which is simply a known sample. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you said that was because of the enlargement? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The difference in the enlargement. The photograph on -the left was taken with the microscope set to magnify the specimen 100 -times. The photograph on the right was taken with the microscope set -to magnify the specimen 400 times. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The photograph on the right does not seem to show a hair -four times larger, so I don't understand it. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. It was on the enlarging of the photograph itself. - -Had these two prints been enlarged at the same enlarging factor, the -hairs on the left, would be much, much smaller than the ones on the -right. This was just blown up to this size so the hairs could be seen. - -For instance, had we not blown these up, here we see them magnified 400 -times, and this other photograph is a natural shot. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, here you are pointing to photograph 669, and the -second shot which you call "natural" is 668? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir. You can see the difference in the diameter and -the difference in the detail of the photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were those photographs of the different magnifications? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; they were. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was 669, do you recall? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I believe it was approximately 400. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And 668? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Approximately 100. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So it corresponds to the difference in the right- and -left-hand portions of 672? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; it would. - -Now, the characteristics we look for in making a hair match. First -would be the color. - -The matches I found in Oswald's hairs. His hairs vary from light brown -to a medium brown shade. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are you talking about the known samples now? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This is his known sample. In this particular match the -color was medium brown, and looking at the hair throughout its entire -length, it ranged from a medium brown, and this color remained constant -to the tip, where the color changed to a light brown and the very tip -of it was transparent, it was clear, had no color at all. There were no -color pigments in the tip of the hair. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are you referring now to the pubic hair which you -illustrate on the right-hand side of 672? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I am referring to the pubic hair. - -This is the gross appearance. I looked at it under low power where I -could see the entire length of the hair. - -Next, the thickness of the hair, or the diameter of the hair shaft. I -found this diameter to be rather narrow for pubic hairs. Pubic hairs -ordinarily are rather thick. Oswald's hairs were relatively narrow. -Pubic hairs also have what we term nobbiness. You can see a nob right -here, it is twisted---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you circle that with a pen, and mark it "A" on -chart 672? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Here we see that it twists and it is very uneven. The -shaft of the hair is generally very uneven in pubic hairs. - -However, in Oswald's pubic hairs we had very little of this. The hairs -were very smooth. They lacked this nobbiness. The upper two-thirds were -extremely smooth for pubic hairs. This was an unusual characteristic. - -The tips of Oswald's pubic hairs were not worn. They had a very sharp -tip and very clear. Ordinarily pubic hairs are rounded at the tips, and -not pointed--this is from wearing against clothing--at all. This would -indicate to me that his pubic hairs were rather strong, much tougher -than the average persons. - -The cuticle, in other words the very thin layer of scales covering his -hairs, is very thin for pubic hairs. The scales exhibited a very small -protrusion on the outside. The distance they protruded from the shaft -of the hair is very slight. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you talk about the protrusion, do you mean the -distance between the point of the scale and the balance of the cuticle, -the center of the cuticle? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. Some hairs will have a sawtooth effect, -will look just like saw teeth do when you look at the blade of a saw. - -Mr. EISENBERG. From the protrusion of the scales? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. From the protrusion of the scales. Others will be very -small, have a slight protrusion. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How was Oswald's? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. It was a very small protrusion. The gapping of Oswald's -hair was very slight. In other words, between the cuticle and the -cortex, the cortex of course containing the color pigment in the hair, -occasionally you will find hairs where there will be no color pigment -in areas up near the cuticle. There will be a gap there. - -Oswald's hairs, as you can see here, have some gapped areas in there -but not too many. They are very irregular, and the gapping does not go -down too deeply into the cortex. - -Pigmentation of his hairs was very fine, equally dispersed, and there -was some chaining together of the larger pigment granules noted. -In other words, three or four of the pigment granules were chained -together. Instead of being dispersed such as they are in Exhibit No. -666, you would have five or six of them chained together, forming a -slight irregular-appearing streak. - -Cortical fusi, the air spaces present in the hairs such as I have drawn -here on Exhibit 666, were for the most part absent in his hairs. I -found very, very few of them, and would term them absent in his hairs. - -The medulla in the hairs, those that contained a medulla, was constant. -It was a continuous streak for the most part. There were some slight -broken areas in it. The hairs of Oswald, that did not have a medulla, -there was not a trace of one present. It was completely absent. This is -unusual. Usually, you will find that the hairs will contain a medulla -and if not in the ones that appear not to, you can find traces of a -medulla present. In his I didn't find any medulla at all in several of -the hairs. - -The root area of his hairs was rather clear of pigment and there was -only a fair amount of cortical fusi present. As in drawing No. 666, in -the root area, you ordinarily would find a large amount of cortical -fusi which rapidly diminish as you proceed out the hair shaft, and in -his there was just a relatively few cortical fusi in the root area. I -found this characteristic also in some of the hairs removed from the -blanket. - -Basically, that is the--those are the characteristics I used in -matching Oswald's pubic hairs with pubic hairs from the blanket. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You have been discussing the characteristics of Oswald's -pubic hairs. In each case were the characteristics of the pubic hairs -you found in the blanket the same as those you have noted as being -present in Oswald's pubic hairs? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; they were all identical. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is as to protrusion of scale, absence of cortical -fusi, chaining together to some extent of pigments, and so forth? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Without going through every item, every item you have -named was identical? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Every item I have found in hair from the blanket? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you go on, please? - -Mr. DULLES. Just one second, off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You have presented at this point a chart labeled -"Microphotograph of Oswald's Limb Hairs" on the left, and on the right -two subcaptions, "Hair from Blanket" and "Hair from Oswald," and do -these--were these photographs taken by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. They were taken by me. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are they accurate reproductions of the material which -according to the captions they are photographs of? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; they are. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I would like this admitted as 671, Mr. Chairman. - -Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted as 671. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 671 was marked, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you briefly discuss this exhibit? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Exhibit 671 is similar to Exhibit 672 in that both -contain two photographs. The photograph on the left is an overall shot -of Oswald's limb hairs. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is the known? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is the known from Oswald. - -The photograph on the right contains photographs of two hairs, in this -same photograph, the hair on the right being a limb hair from Oswald, -and the hair on the left being a hair removed from the blanket. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is the magnification there, Mr. Stombaugh? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The magnification of these is approximately the same as -in the previous submission, the one on the right being approximately -400 diameters and the one on the left 100 diameters. - -Now, the one on the right is a limb hair. A limb hair is much smaller -in diameter than a pubic hair. That is why there will appear to be some -slight change in the size of these hairs. - -I compared the limb hair from the blanket with the limb hair from -Oswald which matched in all observable microscopic characteristics. The -characteristics I found in this match were the color of the hair was -light brown through its entire length, and the width of the hair shaft -or the diameter was very fine. There was no fluctuation that one could -readily see. The diameter of the hair shaft remained constant to the -tip, where it diminished down to a point. - -The tips of the hairs were very sharp and no abrasion was noted. In -other words, the tips of these limb hairs were not rounded as one -ordinarily finds. This would indicate the hairs were very tough, the -same as the pubic hairs were. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are you describing now the known hairs? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. These are known hairs and the match I made; both. - -Mr. EISENBERG. All right. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The scales were of medium size, had very slight -protrusion, and there was very slight gapping in the pigmentation -located in the cortex right against the cuticle of the hair. There was -a fair amount of cortical fusi equally distributed throughout the hair -shaft. - -This is not unusual in itself, but the amount of cortical fusi that I -did find present is unusual. - -The medulla was discontinuous, granular, very bulbous, and very uneven. -It was not a constant, smooth straight line such as one might find over -here in this pubic hair on 672. - -There was nothing unusual noted about the root area of these hairs. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And again you are describing the characteristics of both -hairs, and they were identical in all these characteristics? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were there any characteristics in which they were not -identical? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; not on the limb hair, as I found it matched. I did -find limb hairs and pubic hairs and head hairs in this blanket which -were dissimilar to Oswald's and definitely did not come from him -but the hairs I have talked about here matched in all microscopical -characteristics. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The other hairs, Mr. Stombaugh, could you make a -determination as to race? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; they were all Caucasian. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you make a determination as to sex or age? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; it is not possible to determine sex or age from an -examination of a hair. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you make a determination as to the number of -individuals who had contributed these hairs? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; I couldn't. You would have to have a hair sample -from any suspected person, and hairs vary tremendously. Even on the -same individual head hairs from the same individual can vary from one -head area to another. - -I have found as many as 12 to 15 different types of hair on the same -person's head. - -So, therefore, it would not be possible to estimate the number of -different people whose hairs have appeared on this blanket. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Stombaugh, are you able to say that the limb -hairs and pubic hairs which you found in the blanket and which you have -matched with Oswald's in observable microscopic characteristics came -from Oswald to the exclusion of any other individual? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; I couldn't say that. I could say that these hairs -could have come from Oswald. I could not say they definitely came from -him to the exclusion of all other Caucasian persons in the world. - -In order to say this, one would have to take hair samples from all of -these people and compare them and this, of course, is impossible. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What degree of probability do you think there is that -these hairs came from Oswald? And without putting a precise number on -it, let's suppose you took head hairs from 100 Caucasian individuals, -how many matches would you expect to find among those hundred different -hairs on the basis of your experience? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. On the basis of my experience I would expect to find -only one match. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is to say that the 100 hairs would be different -from each other? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is your experience, therefore, that the hairs of -different individuals do not match in observable microscopic -characteristics--within the basis of your experience? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Within the basis of my experience, I have examined -thousands of hairs and I have never found Caucasian hairs from two -different individuals that match. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, when you say that, Mr. Stombaugh, have you been -presented with hairs in your laboratory from Caucasian individuals -which you knew before the examination came from two or more individuals? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes. - -We have obtained samples of hairs from a hundred different people, and -would select one hair, give it to an examiner and ask who it originated -from, and invariably he would be able to find in the hundred different -samples the individual the hair originated from. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, when a specimen comes into your laboratory, does -it frequently come in--and I am talking now about specimens that come -in from a crime--does it frequently come in such, so that you have two -specimens, two or more specimens, which you know before you begin are -from two different people? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are told before you begin that they come from two -different people? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; ordinarily a case such as a murder or a rape, -you will obtain the clothing of the victim, the clothing of the suspect -in the case, as well as hair samples from the victim and hair samples -from the suspect. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How many types of cases like this do you think you have -processed? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Processed approximately 500 a year. - -Mr. EISENBERG. For how many years? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Four years--no, three years. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In any of these approximately 1,500 cases, have you -found a case involving Caucasian hairs in which the hairs from the -known two different individuals matched in observable physical -characteristics microscopically? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No, sir; I have never found hair from two different -Caucasian persons that matched. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you found any in non-Caucasian hairs, by the way? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I have found several cases in which hairs from two -different persons of the Negroid race, although the hairs did not match -completely, the characteristics were such that I felt that I could not -go further with the examination because I could not exclude the hairs. -The hairs were too similar. When I make a hair match. I know that any -case might go to court, and of course I want to be absolutely certain -in my mind. - -In these cases I am referring to right now, the hair sample from the -victim and the hair sample from the suspect were pubic hairs. They were -so similar to each other that I could not find any pubic hairs that I -could match with the suspect's pubic hairs, and be certain in my mind -that these hairs came from him rather than her. I couldn't do this. - -So, therefore, I sent the evidence back without further conclusion. -This has happened in approximately three cases. However, I would like -to point out that I could not take his, the suspect's pubic hairs, -and the victim's pubic hairs and completely match them up under a -microscope slide such as the match shown in the chart. They did not -absolutely match, but they were too similar for a good determination to -be made. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What proportion of the 1,500 cases that you have -described--approximately 1,500 cases--have involved Negroid as opposed -to Caucasian hairs, just roughly? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I would say about approximately a third. Of course, a -lot of these cases we don't know the race. They don't list the race, -but in examining the hairs I can tell the race---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. So in 1,000-odd cases of the Caucasian hair examinations -you haven't 2 matches between hairs from different individuals? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And in the 500-odd cases of Negroid, 500-odd cases -involving hairs from two different Negroid individuals, you have found -three cases where although the hairs were not identical they were so -close that you felt you didn't want to go further in your examination, -is that correct? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that a fair recapitulation? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I just ask a question here? - -There is a distinction then, as I gather from your testimony, an -understandable one, between the comparison of hairs and, say, the -comparison of fingerprints, because obviously the hair that you find on -the victim has left the assailant and, therefore, you are not looking -at the same hair but you are looking at a different hair? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. And that, therefore, distinguishes testimony in regard to -hair, we will say, with regard to fingerprint examination? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; that, and also a fingerprint will remain the -same throughout one's life. It will never change. A hair will. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. You can see my hair, I am starting to get white at the -temples. Mine is changing characteristics. - -Mr. DULLES. We all do. - -But is there--let's say you examine 100 hairs, let's say, that -are found on the victim, and 100 hairs that are different hairs -that are found on the assailant; let us say that there are certain -characteristics common to all of these hairs. - -Do you get my question? Let's say 10, not 100, whatever number you want -to take. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Ordinarily, you would find one or two. - -Mr. DULLES. That have certain characteristics. You have pointed out on -exhibit--on the left-hand side of Exhibit 672, the circle you have made -on 672, circle A. - -Is there a common characteristic that you have marked on one of the -other hairs? I believe the hair marked with the "A," was taken from -Oswald himself, the hair on which you have marked that particular -characteristic. - -Is there any corresponding characteristic that should be marked or -indicated on a hair that was found on the blanket? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Well, I testified as to all the characteristics I found. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Now, the difficulty in using a photomicrograph, you are -trying to photograph a round object and as a result of this all of -these characteristics just won't appear in focus. - -Mr. EISENBERG. To be more specific, Mr. Stombaugh, that circle marked -"A" was to show a nobbiness in Oswald's hair. As I recall, you -testified there was very little nobbiness present in that pubic hair, -as opposed to the normal amount of nobbiness of pubic hair? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. On the right-hand side of 672, I suppose we don't see -much or any nobbiness in either the known or---- - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; there is none present here. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that would correspond with the point you made as to -"A," that there was very little nobbiness? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Very little. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that is why there is no corresponding mark for -nobbiness characteristic on the right-hand side, is that correct? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The right-hand side of 672? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. Oswald's hairs, where the nobbiness did -appear was in the lower third, in other words, the area from the root -out on the shaft approximately one-third. The remaining two-thirds of -the hair shaft all the way out to the tip was relatively straight, no -nobbiness at all present. This was characteristic. Ordinarily a pubic -hair will have this nobbiness two-thirds to three-fourths of the way -up. So this was a characteristic which exists in Oswald's pubic hairs -which is different from the ordinary or average. - -Mr. DULLES. And you found that both on the hairs taken from Oswald -himself and on the hairs found in the blanket? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Stombaugh, on this general point, when you make your -comparison examination, do you come to your conclusions on the basis of -what you see under the microscope, or on the basis of the photographs -you take? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. On the basis of what I see under the microscope. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you usually take photographs? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you took them--can you explain why you took them -here? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I took these at your request as an exhibit just to show -what the hairs looked like. In a photograph it is very hard to try to -point out the characteristics of hairs because they aren't clear. Under -a microscope you can see each of these points by focusing up and down. -If I am looking at the pigment on the hair, I can focus the comparison -microscope up and down and see exactly the same characteristics, the -pigment is exactly the same size, dispersed about the same, and there -is approximately the same amount of pigment in a given area. - -Also, the cuticle is of the same thickness. I can line the hairs up -longitudinally and see that the tips of the scales match equally as far -as protrusion and distance goes. - -This you couldn't show in the photographs. In order to show each and -every characteristic in photographs, I would have to take 500 or 600 -different photographs. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So these photographs are just as a general illustration -of the kind of thing you see, rather than being given to the Commission -as photographs from which the Commission is to make an identification? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. If I were to look at these photographs -myself, I couldn't make an identification on them because I wouldn't be -able to see enough and I would say this looks like this and this looks -like this, but so what? - -What about the size of the pigments, what about the size of the -scales, what about the thickness of the cuticle? I see a medulla here, -I don't see a medulla over here. So you just couldn't see all the -characteristics in a photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But these characteristics you do see as you change the -focus on the microscope? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; these appear by looking through different areas of -the hair shaft itself. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, getting to the microscope itself, suppose a person -without experience looked through the microscope directly at the -hairs. Would he be able to directly interpret the hairs--a known and a -questioned hair--to see if they are probably identical, or does it take -experience even to interpret what you see through a microscope? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This takes experience to interpret what you see. - -We get quite a few people through the lab on tours and every now and -then I will set up some hairs. I had one man making a match with a dog -hair and a human hair, and he said they came from the same person, -because he couldn't interpret what he saw. He just thought he saw -something which he didn't. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Stombaugh, could you tell from these hairs that you -found in the blanket, and let me add parenthetically we sometimes have -been calling this blanket a rug but we have been talking about the -object---- - -Mr. DULLES. You call it a blanket, technically. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Technically a blanket, and it is Exhibit 140. This -Exhibit 140, Mr. Stombaugh, could you tell whether these hairs had been -pulled out or had fallen out? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. These hairs had fallen out naturally. They have died and -fallen from the body. This is a very normal occurrence. When one combs -one's hair, ordinarily you will find one or two strands of hair on the -comb, because hair is constantly being replaced in most people. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How can you tell it had fallen out? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. From the shape of the root. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is the difference of the shape of the root where a -hair falls out and the shape of the hair of a root where it has been -taken out artificially or unnaturally? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. In Exhibit 667, I have a photomicrograph of a root of -a human hair. Now, this hair has died and has fallen out naturally, -you can tell by the shape of it here. The follicle has just come right -along with it. It is starting to shrivel. If this hair was a healthy -hair and had been forcibly removed, this root would have been collapsed -and twisted. It is very characteristic, it is easy to tell whether a -hair has been forcibly removed or whether it fell out naturally. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Suppose it is cut, suppose the hair was cut, can you -tell that? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, we can tell from looking at the tip of a hair -whether it has been cut, burned, crushed, and whether it has been cut -with a sharp instrument, such as a razor, or whether it has been cut -with a dull instrument. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were these hairs cut, the hairs in 140, that you found -in Exhibit 140? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Some of the tips of the head hairs had been cut, but the -limb hairs and the pubic hairs had not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But they all had roots on them? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. They all had roots on them. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Getting back to the blanket for a moment, as to the -composition, you testified that there were woolen, viscose, and cotton -fibers. I don't recall whether you said that there were green and brown -fibers of each type of textile? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, each type had green and brown fibers. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, also getting back to the shape of the blanket when -you received it, the shape of 140 and its folds, we had discussed a -crease which you marked "C," which you said was caused by an object 10 -inches long, and we discussed whether the object was 10 inches long or -could have been longer. - -How long was the crease "C"? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The crease "C," the hump in the blanket itself, was -approximately 10 inches long. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And did that run--as the blanket is folded, and looking -from "A" to the general area of "D"--and putting "A" at the left-hand -side--can you tell us how that crease ran, did it run from left to -right or from top to bottom? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. It ran from left to right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. It ran from left to right, and about 10 inches long? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Approximately 10 inches long. - -Mr. EISENBERG. As I recall, you testified it was caused by a distortion -in the fibers, that is to say, the fact the crease was still present -even though there was no object in the blanket was caused by a -distortion of the fibers? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; the fibers had been stretched in this -area--not the fibers, the yarns. - -Mr. DULLES. Can one see that on the blanket itself? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Let's take a look at 140, Mr. Stombaugh, and see if it -is still present? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. If I can find where it was here. I doubt if it will -still be present because the creases on the edges of the blanket are -gone. I can't tell. It has been folded so much. No. I can't see it. - -When I received the blanket in the laboratory, I noticed, when I put -the blanket down flat, it had an area that was humped just like this. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You have put a pencil underneath? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you have picked it up an inch or two, you have made -a hump of about an inch or an inch and a half up from the rest of the -blanket, is that correct? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes. But it was very slight and you could hardly notice -it, but I happened to look at the blanket from a distance and saw the -hump and went over to measure it. But we tried to photograph it and we -just couldn't get it. We tried various ways of lighting. - -So I made a notation in my notes regarding that slight hump. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, just to make the record clear, the hump was 10 -inches long, and therefore you felt that the object immediately causing -the hump must have been approximately 10 inches long, is that correct? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes. The object causing the hump itself. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But could it have been attached to an object which was -longer than 10 inches, or could it have been attached to an object, -running underneath the object causing the protrusion, which was longer -than 10 inches? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Okay. That is what I think was the source of the -confusion earlier. - -Now, you placed this mark "C" on this paper illustration, Exhibit 663. -Does that--does the placement of the mark approximate the general area -where you found the hump? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, approximately, according to my notes. It could be -to the left a little or to the right a little. This isn't to scale. - -Mr. EISENBERG. One last question on the blanket, Mr. Stombaugh. Could -you form any opinion as to the quality of the blanket? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Well, the composition of the blanket being mostly -viscose, a very cheap synthetic, indicated to me that it was an -inferior blanket, relatively inexpensive. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you determine whether it was a domestic or a -foreign product? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No, I couldn't. - -Mr. EISENBERG. It might have been either? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Could have been either, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Stombaugh, I hand you a photograph which is -labeled on the bottom "C 11, Commission Exhibit 150." It is a color -photograph of a brownish textured shirt, long-sleeved, with a hole in -the right elbow, and I ask you whether you recognize the shirt that is -pictured in that photograph? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, I do. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you see your mark anywhere on that? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, my mark is in red, initials "PMS" are in the collar -of the shirt. - -Mr. EISENBERG. "PMS" being your initials, Paul M. Stombaugh? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this photograph admitted? - -Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted, 673. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 673, and -was received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Let me state for the record we are introducing the -photograph at this point rather than the shirt itself because -depositions are being taken in Dallas simultaneously with the testimony -being elicited today, and the shirt is being used by those members of -the staff who are in Dallas. - -Mr. DULLES. I understand. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When did you receive this shirt that is pictured in -Exhibit 673, said shirt being Commission Exhibit 150? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I received this shirt the same day I received the -blanket, which was November 23, 1963, approximately 7:30 a.m. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, did you conduct an examination to determine the -composition of this shirt? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When did you do that? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I did this later on that morning. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What were your conclusions as to the composition, Mr. -Stombaugh? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The shirt is composed of gray-black cotton, dark blue -cotton, and orange-yellow cotton fibers. The dark yarn in the shirt is -composed of a mixture of dark blue and gray-black cotton fibers twisted -together, and the light yellowish orange looking colors here, the yarns -in this part of the shirt were composed of orange-yellow cotton fibers. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine the shirt to determine--pardon me, Mr. -Dulles, were you going to put a question on the composition? - -Mr. DULLES. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine the shirt to determine the presence of -hairs or other debris? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No, I didn't. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You did not? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Neither then or at any subsequent time? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you take a look at your notes on that, Mr. -Stombaugh, to make sure about that? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No, sir; I did not remove the debris from the shirt. I -noted in my notes the two buttons from the top were forcibly removed, -the right elbow area was worn through, the bottom front inside of the -shirt was ripped forcibly, and that I had made a known sample of this -shirt. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Stombaugh, I had been under the impression you found -some wax on that shirt. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; down the face of the shirt I did find some -wax adhering to it, and this wax I removed and delivered to the -spectrographic unit for a spectrographic examination. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does that show in your notes? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I was looking for debris and hairs. I knew I had -not scraped the shirt. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I am using the wrong term, I guess. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I recall doing this. This was later in the afternoon -when I removed this wax and took it to the spectrographic unit. This -was after I had conducted other examinations on some other items. - -Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, we had an earlier discussion, and you -had mentioned this to me in an earlier discussion, as I recall---- - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; that is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which prompted me to ask you the question. Did you find -any body hairs on this shirt--or any hairs, I should say? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I didn't look for hairs on this shirt. This type of -examination had not been requested. It seemed unnecessary. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Stombaugh, were you able to determine the quality of -the shirt or did you form any opinion as to the quality of the shirt? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; it was an inexpensive shirt. I found no labels in -it indicating the manufacturer. - -Mr. DULLES. Any indication that labels had been torn out? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Not that I recall, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were you able to determine, Mr. Stombaugh, whether this -was a domestic, whether this was of domestic or foreign origin? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; there are so many different shirt manufacturers in -this country, that there is little value in trying to trace down a -particular source unless we can find a manufacturer's marking in the -shirt. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Any laundry marks which you attempted to trace down? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I found no laundry marks. The shirt was well worn and -appeared to have been hand laundered. - -Mr. EISENBERG. If there are no further questions on the shirt, I will -move on to another item. - -Mr. Stombaugh, I now hand you a homemade paper bag, Commission Exhibit -142, which parenthetically has also received another Exhibit No. 626, -and ask you whether you are familiar with this item? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I am. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does that have your mark on it? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. At the time I examined this, it was to be treated for -latent fingerprints subsequent to my examination, and in a case like -this I will not put a mark on the item itself because my mark might -cover a latent fingerprint which is later brought up, and therefore -obscure it. - -In this particular instance, I made a drawing of this bag on my notes -with the various sizes and description of it to refresh my memory at a -later date. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And it is--looking at those notes and as you remember -now--this is the bag? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This is the bag. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, this bag has an area of very light-brown color, and -the greater portion of the area is a quite dark-brownish color. What -was the color when you originally received it? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. When I originally received this it was a light-brown -color. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which is at one end of the bag? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. One end of the bag. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The tape is also two colors, one a lightish brown and -the other a darkish brown. What color was the tape when you received it? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The tape also was light brown. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you turn the bag over? Was it the color that shows -as a lighter yellowish-type of brown? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; a yellow-brown shade. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When did you receive it, by the way, Mr. Stombaugh? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This was received on November 23, 7:30 a.m., 1963. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you form any opinions as you examined it, concerning -the construction of the bag? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. When I looked at the bag and examined it, it struck me -as being a homemade bag such as I could make. Occasionally I will have -a need for something like this at home. Therefore, I will take some -brown paper and a strip of tape home with me. Then when I get home I -will fold the tape--fold the paper rather--in the shape I need--and to -seal it up I will tear strips of the sealing tape from the little piece -I have. - -Here we find that this tape has been torn at several places, such -as one would do in an instance like that. Due to these torn edges, -I was under the impression, from looking at the bag, that it was a -homemade bag which someone had made at home and they did not have a -tape dispenser which machine-cuts tape. Therefore, they had to tear it, -which they did--or cut it, of course--with a knife. And this is the -case where pieces of tape were torn. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You were pointing to various torn edges as you -testified, is that correct? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; that is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How many, if any, square-cut edges did you notice? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I found--according to my drawing--two machine-cut edges. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would that indicate--well, do you form any opinion as -to, on the basis of that, as to the origin, possible origin, of the -tape? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The origin of the tape as far as the manufacturer---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. What I am referring to is this: on the basis of that -would you draw an inference that the person had taken--whoever made -this bag--had taken two lengths of tape from a dispensing machine and -had subsequently torn it up into smaller strips, or do you think he had -one length of tape from a dispensing machine which he subsequently tore -up into smaller strips? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. From the ends that I could see, now I don't know whether -there were any ends underneath which I did not have a chance to look -at, I don't have anything in my notes, but from what I can see it would -appear he took a strip of tape, machine-cut from a dispenser, and used -that entire strip, thus using up both ends of the tape because we have -two machine-cut ends. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In other words, it would be a machine-cut strip at the -beginning of the tape which the person pulled out, left over from the -last cut? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And a machine-cut at the end, where the person himself -ripped the tape from the machine? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you infer that he then divided it into smaller -strips on the occasion when he made the bag? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; he pulled one strip, of course, he could have -pulled two or three strips, I don't know, but it would appear he took -one strip of tape and tore it into smaller pieces to be used on the bag. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you notice any bulges or creases or folds apart from -the fold used in making of the bag? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; I didn't. I noticed that one end of the bag had been -torn. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, would you say that the absence of bulges would be -inconsistent with the carrying of a heavy object or an irregularly -shaped object in the bag? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Well, I don't believe I am qualified to answer that -question, because I actually am not an expert in paper. - -Mr. EISENBERG. All right. We will leave that to the questioned document -examiner and we will take it up with him. - -Did you notice anything else about the bag relating to its gross -physical characteristics and its shape, apart from any debris which you -may have found inside or outside the bag? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No, sir; just an oblong homemade bag was the impression -I received from looking at it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think it was, if it was in fact a homemade bag, -do you think it was a well-made bag, Mr. Stombaugh? Did you form any -opinion as to that? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. In my opinion, just a personal opinion, the person was -aware as to how to make a bag, to seal the ends by folding both corners -in and then folding them flat. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You just demonstrated that both corners originally were -folded by the crease lines, and you folded it over again to show how it -was made? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; this makes a neat and also a secure corner or end -to the bag, to prevent losing any of the contents. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Stombaugh, did you examine the outside of this paper -bag---- - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Exhibit 142 and also 626, to see if there were any -foreign items on the surface? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And what did you find? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I found that the bag had previously been dusted for -latent fingerprints because I found traces of what appeared to be -fingerprint powder on it. - -I was using white gloves at the time I examined this and the gloves -became quite soiled from the fingerprint powder. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you find anything else? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; nothing on the outside of the bag. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How did you conduct that examination, by the way? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. With a low-power microscope. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you find any cotton fibers on the outside of the bag -at all, Mr. Stombaugh, white or colored? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. There were white cotton fibers on the outside but I -was using a pair of white cotton gloves, so these would be of no -value. White cotton is the most common thing we have in the way of -textiles, and therefore it just doesn't have sufficient individual -characteristics to be of value for comparison and identification -purposes. It is for this reason that we use gloves of this material. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And those fibers may have come from your white cotton -gloves? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; they could very easily have come from my gloves -from handling the object with a pair of gloves on. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you proceed to examine the inside of the paper bag -to see if there were any foreign objects? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What were your conclusions? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I removed the debris from the inside of the bag by -opening the bag as best I could, and tapping it and knocking the -debris on to a small piece of white paper, and I found a very small -number of fibers. Upon examining these fibers, I found a single brown, -delustered, viscose fiber and several light-green cotton fibers from -the inside of the bag. I also found a minute particle of wood and a -single particle of a waxy substance. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attach any significance to the particle of wood, -Mr. Stombaugh? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; it was too minute for identification purposes. It -could have come from any surface, including the bag itself. Sometimes -all of the wood used in the manufacture of paper doesn't go into a -pulp, and this might be a very tiny such fragment. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine the wood fragment? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I looked at it microscopically. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to compare it with the wood of the -Exhibit 139, which is a rifle? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; the wood particle from the bag was too minute for -comparison purposes. There wasn't much you could do with it, it was -very small. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attach any significance to the body wax--or to -the wax, I should say? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The wax particle I noticed, and I recalled having seen -wax on the shirt, Exhibit No. 673, so therefore I put that aside for a -spectrographic examination and comparison of the wax particle from the -inside of the bag with the wax from the shirt. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And what were the results? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. They were entirely different. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was there any analysis made of the wax in the bag as to -its origin, do you know? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. It was examined by the spectrographic examiner and he -found it was just common wax. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say common wax, do you mean the kind you wax a -floor with? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; more like that which could have come from a candle, -candle wax. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What about the wax on the shirt as to origin? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. It was paraffin. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now you also said there were several fibers, Mr. -Stombaugh? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; I did. There was a single brown delustered -viscose fiber and several light-green cotton fibers. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did this single brown viscose fiber match the fibers -from the blanket, Exhibit 140? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; it did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In what characteristics were they matched? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The fibers in the blanket had a large number of brown -viscose fibers, delustered and one fiber I found in the bag was also a -viscose fiber of the same type and color as seen under a low-powered -microscope. The delustering spots seen on the fiber were the same size, -and both fibers were approximately the same diameter. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How common is viscose, Mr. Stombaugh, as a fiber? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Viscose is fairly common. It is used in many types of -garments; it depends on the quality of the garment. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And this was delustered viscose, did you say? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How common is delustered viscose? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. It is most common, I would say. It is more common than -lustrous. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Generally speaking, how many variations of diameter -would a delustered viscose come in? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This is entirely up to the manufacturer. He can -make viscose any diameter he wants, and there could be hundreds of -variations in the diameter of viscose fibers. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But the fiber you found in the paper bag, 142, matched -the fibers you found in the Exhibit 140? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; but the viscose fibers in the blanket varied -in size also. - -Mr. EISENBERG. To what extent? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. There were 10 to 15 different diameters of viscose in -this blanket. It appeared to me as if the blanket was made of scrap -viscose, scrap fibers. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that the diameters would be random? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. They were random; yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, what about the color, was the color a match -between the fiber found in 140--in 142--and the fiber which is in the -composition of 140, the blanket? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; the color matched some of the viscose fibers, the -brown viscose fibers in the blanket. Of course, these colors also -varied slightly but not to any great extent, not like the diameter. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were there any other common characteristics between the -viscose fibers found in the blanket and the viscose fibers found in the -paper bag? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The viscose fiber I found in the bag matched in all -observable microscopic characteristics some of the viscose fibers found -in the composition of this blanket. This would be the diameter, the -diameter of that same fiber would have the same size of delustering -markings, same shape, same form, and also same color. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, what about the green cotton fiber that you found -in the paper bag, Mr. Stombaugh, how did that compare with the green -cotton fiber--was it a green cotton fiber that your testimony mentioned? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; there were several light green cotton fibers. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How did they compare with the green cotton fibers which -are contained in the composition of the blanket? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. These matched in all observable microscopic -characteristics. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And those were what? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The color and the amount of twist of the cotton fibers -were the same as the color and twist found in these. Mainly the color -is what we go by on cotton. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were they mercerized or unmercerized? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. They were not mercerized. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How common is cotton as a fiber, Mr. Stombaugh? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Cotton is the most common fiber used. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And what about nonmercerized cotton, as to commonness? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. You would find more unmercerized cotton in use than -mercerized, because to mercerize cotton is an added production factor -used in cotton. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How great a variation do you get in degree of twist? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. You are referring to between mercerized and un---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. No; within unmercerized cotton. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This would depend on the quality of the cotton and the -length of the cotton also. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But I mean as samples come across your desk in your -office, or as you read about them in books, is there a great variation -in twist or a small variation? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. It depends--there is a small variation but this would -depend on the type of cotton. There are different types of cotton, and -each is determined from the length of the individual cotton fiber. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you tell what kind of cotton you were dealing with -in the blanket? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; because here we are not dealing with a full-length -cotton fiber. We are dealing with a fragment of a single fiber. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, could you determine whether there was a variation -in the twist of the cotton fibers within the blanket itself as there -was, you say, in the diameter of the viscose fibers? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The twist seemed to coincide with the twist found in the -cotton from the blanket. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. But looking just to the blanket now for a second, -you said the brown viscose or the viscose generally in the blanket -itself varied as to diameter. Did the cotton in the blanket vary within -itself as to twist or was the cotton of a fairly uniform twist? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; it was fairly uniform twist. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you said the fibers you found, the green cotton -fibers you found, in the bag were the same twist as the twist of the -cottons which composed the blanket? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And just to tie this into the questions I was asking a -few seconds ago, would this degree of twist be significant, that is -can you determine under the microscope 4 different kinds of degrees -of twist or 20--how many different degrees of twist can you determine -under a microscope, just approximately? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Are you referring to the same type of cotton---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, when you get a piece of cotton? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Or cotton as a whole? - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you get a piece of cotton under the microscope and -you don't know what type it is? I am referring to cotton as a whole. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I see. The degree of twist could be--now if we are -dealing with fresh cotton, cotton running right from the plant, then -the degree of twist, this varies, and this could be used in the -identification of the type of cotton. But in the manufacturing process -quite frequently when the cotton is spun into yarns then this twist is -affected. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, at this point I am not interested in determining -the type of cotton. What I am interested in is determining how -significant the degree of twist is as an identifying factor. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I would say no significance at all as far as the sole -identifying characteristic goes, whether or not this cotton of this -cotton has the same twist. The twist we use is for identification -purposes only, supplementing other identifying characteristics. - -Mr . EISENBERG. That is the only purpose I am interested in. - -Mr . STOMBAUGH. Yes; that is the only purpose. - -Mr . EISENBERG. But in getting to that, how valuable is it for -identification purposes? I am curious as to how many--how much a -twist can vary. As you pick up a random fiber, and put it under your -microscope, I am interested in how much the twist can vary. For -example, if there are only two possibilities, then it isn't too helpful -that you get a match in twist, but if there are great variations in -twist in cotton fibers as they come under your microscope, it would be -helpful in making your identification. - -Mr . STOMBAUGH. I see what you are getting at. There are great -variations. Sometimes in a cotton fiber, the twist will be rather far -apart. Other times it will be rather close together. This piece---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that the fibers, the cotton fibers, to begin with, -matched in twist, that is, the cotton fibers you found in the paper bag -matched the twist of the ones that are contained in the blanket, and -you said they also matched in color? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I would like to ask you the same question as to color -that I asked you as to twist. How many different shades do you think -you can distinguish under the microscope in a green cotton? Would -the range be just 2 or 3 different shades, or do you think you could -distinguish between 20 or 30 different types of green cotton if you -laid them next to each other under the microscope? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; the range in green cotton fibers, for that matter in -any color, is tremendous. This could go to 50 sometimes 100 different -shades which you can distinguish under a microscope. To the naked -eye, it would look as if it is just green. But you could take, say -five different fabrics of the same type that have been dyed exactly -the same color or rather you think they are the same shade, and put -the individual fibers under the microscope and there will be a big -difference noted in shades. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now were the green cotton fibers in the blanket uniform -as to shade between themselves? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; these varied. - -Mr. EISENBERG. To what extent? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. They go from a green to a very pale green. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that the---- - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Might be seven or eight different shades. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So when you say there is a match, you mean the green -cotton fibers you found in the paper bag were within the spectrum -of shades that are laid out in the green cotton fibers from the -blanket--is that correct? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No. I forget how many different shades of green I found -in this blanket. Under the circumstances, I considered the exact -number of no particular significance. But we will say it might be -possibly eight different separate shades, and the fibers I found from -the blanket matched some of these shades. Not all of them; but there -might be a medium-green fiber that I found in the bag, which I matched -with a medium-green fiber from this blanket. It might have been one -that had a yellowish-green tinge to it, which I also matched with the -yellowish-green tinged cotton fibers from the blanket. - -So unless the colors match absolutely, there is no match. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you recall how many green cotton fibers you found in -the paper bag? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I have here in my notes "several"-- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I have here in my notes "several light green cotton -fibers," which would be approximately two or three. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you recall whether they represented two or three -different shades? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; they were all different from each other but each -matched the cotton fibers in the blanket. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So you had two or three cotton fibers of two or three -shades of green in the bag, and they matched against these two or three -of the seven or eight shades of green cotton which were in the blanket, -is that a correct recapitulation? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you say there are 50 to 100--approximately--green -shades of cotton that can be distinguished under the microscope? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I would say that is true. This would vary from dark -green, of course, all the way up to light-pale green. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you find anything else within the bag, Mr. Stombaugh? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No, sir; that is all I found inside the bag. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, what do you think the degree of probability is, if -you can form an opinion, that the fibers from the bag, fibers in the -bag, ultimately came from the blanket? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. When you get into mathematical probabilities, it is -something I stay away from, since in general there are too many unknown -factors. All I would say here is that it is possible that these fibers -could have come from this blanket, because this blanket is composed -of brown and green woolen fibers, brown and green delustered viscose -fibers, and brown and green cotton fibers. - -Now these 3 different types of fibers have 6 different general colors, -and if we would multiply that, say by a minimum of 5 different shades -of each so you would have 30 different shades you are looking for, and -3 different types of fibers. Here we have only found 1 brown viscose -fiber, and 2 or 3 light green cotton fibers. We found no brown cotton -fibers, no green viscose fibers, and no woolen fibers. - -So if I had found all of these then I would have been able to say these -fibers probably had come from this blanket. But since I found so few, -then I would say the possibility exists, these fibers could have come -from this blanket. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, let me ask you a hypothetical question, Mr. -Stombaugh. First, I hand you Commission Exhibit 139, which consists of -a rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository -Building, and I ask you, if the rifle had lain in the blanket, which -is 140, and were then put inside the bag, 142, could it have picked up -fibers from the blanket and transferred them to the bag? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are there any further questions as to the blanket? - -Mr. DULLES. Do you have any, Mr. Murray? - -Mr. MURRAY. I have none, Mr. Dulles. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you recognize Exhibit 139? Are you familiar with that? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I am. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine that in the laboratory? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you know when you made that examination? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. On the morning of November 23, 1963. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is your mark on it? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; here is my mark. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which consists of your initials? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. My initials, and the date 11-23-63. Do you mind if I -check to see if this is unloaded? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine the rifle to determine whether it -contained on its surface or crevices any hair or other debris? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us how you made that examination? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir. The gun was to be treated for latent -fingerprints also, so I wore a pair of white cotton gloves to protect -any latents that might be present on the gun. I placed the gun under -a low-powered microscope and examined the gun from the end of the -barrel to the end of the stock, removing what fibers I could find from -crevices adhering to the gun. - -I noticed immediately upon receiving the gun that this gun had been -dusted for latent fingerprints prior to my receiving it. Latent -fingerprint powder was all over the gun; it was pretty well dusted -off, and at the time I noted to myself that I doubted very much if -there would be any fibers adhering to the outside of this gun--I -possibly might find some in a crevice some place--because when the -latent fingerprint man dusted this gun, apparently in Dallas, they use -a little brush to dust with they would have dusted any fibers off the -gun at the same time; so this I noted before I ever started to really -examine the gun. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were you unhappy at all about that? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I was; however, it is not uncommon for fingerprint -processing to be given priority consideration. They wanted to know -whether or not the gun contained any fibers to show that it had been -stored in this blanket, and with all the obstructions and the crevices -on the metal parts of this gun, ordinarily a fiber would adhere pretty -well, unless you take a brush and brush it off, and then you brush it -on the floor and it is lost. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Who was "they," you said "they" wanted to know? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Well, this is our Dallas office. They sent the gun in -wanting to know this fact. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Proceed. - -Mr. DULLES. It was dusted by the Dallas police, was it, first? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I don't know who dusted it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, I believe that will be shown later that -it was dusted by Dallas police. - -As far as you know, did it come into your office, into your laboratory -before it went to the identification division, latent fingerprint -section? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I received this gun from Special Agent Vincent -Drain of the Dallas FBI office. It was crated very well. I opened the -crate myself and put my initials on the gun and at that time I noted it -had been dusted for latent prints. - -So I proceeded to pick off what fibers were left from the small -crevices and small grease deposits which were left on the gun. - -At this point of the butt plate, the end of the stock---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Let's get that a little more specific if we can. Can you -point to that again? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. In this area, the butt plate of the stock, this is a -metal butt plate, you can see the jagged edge on it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is on the left side of the butt plate? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. It is on the left side; yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In approximately in the middle there is a jagged edge, -jagged inside edge, where the butt plate comes into contact with the -wood, is that what you are referring to? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; there is a jagged edge there. This area right here, -according to my notes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I found a tiny tuft of fibers which had caught on that -jagged edge, and then when the individual who dusted this dusted them, -he just folded them down very neatly into the little crevice there, -and they stayed. These I removed and put on a glass microscope slide, -and marked this particular slide "No. 2," because this little group of -fibers--little tuft of fibers, appeared to be fresh. - -The fibers on the rest of the gun were either adhering to a greasy, -oily deposit or jammed into a crevice and were very dirty and -apparently very old. - -You can look at a fiber and tell whether it has been beaten around or -exposed much. These appeared to be fairly fresh. - -Mr. EISENBERG. "These" being the ones that you found in the butt plate -crevice? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; adhering to this small jagged edge. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Before we get to those, were there any other fibers of -value on the rest of the Exhibit 139? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; the other fibers I cleaned up, removed the grease -and examined them but they were of no value. They were pretty well -fragmented. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You could not make a determination as to their nature? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I could tell what type they were. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Meaning textile type? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; such as wool, cotton, what-have-you, but the grease -and the dirt had changed the colors which ruined the characteristics -for comparison purposes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you tell whether they were old or new? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. They all appeared old. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What about---- - -Mr. DULLES. What do you mean by old, 2 or 3 months old, 2 or 3 weeks -old? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Well, a length of time, I would say that in excess of a -month or 2 months. - -Mr. DULLES. In that area? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. In that area or longer. They weren't recently put in -there. Let's say that. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What about the grease, did you attempt to examine the -grease? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Why was that? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I could see no need of it at that time. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Let's return then to the fibers which you referred to as -being fresh, which you said you found in the crevice of the butt plate, -and I will ask Mr. Dulles' question in reverse: What do you mean by -fresh, why do you call these fresh? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. In the first place, this was just a small tuft. They -were adhering to the gun on a small jagged edge. In other words, the -gun had caught on a piece of fabric and pulled these fibers loose. They -were clean, they had good color to them, there was no grease on them -and they were not fragmented. They looked as if they had just been -picked up. They were folded very neatly down in the crevice. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were these fibers in a position where they could have -easily been knocked off by rough use? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; they were adhering to the edge rather tightly. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In the crevice? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Well, it had the jagged edge sticking up and the fibers -were folded around it and resting in the crevice. - -Mr. DULLES. I think you testified, though, that might have been done in -part by the dusting? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; I believe when the fingerprintman dusted it he -probably ran his brush along the metal portion here. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Of the butt plate? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Of the butt plate, and at the time the brush folded -these down into the crevice. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What led you to the particular conclusion that they had -been folded into the crevice by the dusting? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Because of the presence of fingerprint powder being down -in and through the crevice here. It looked as if it had been dusted -with a brush. You could make out the bristlemarks of the brush itself. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now assuming your conclusion is accurate that they were -dusted into the crevice, and had not been in the crevice originally but -had merely adhered to the jagged edge, how much--how rough a handling -would it have taken to have gotten them loose from that jagged edge? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Well, I would imagine if one took a brush and started -brushing pretty hard these would have worked loose and come out. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would the use of the weapon itself have jarred them -loose? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I doubt it. I doubt it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I am talking now about the jagged edge position, and not -the crevice position. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. You mean breaking them loose? They were adhering to the -jagged edge. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. It might, of course--there are a lot of factors here you -don't know, but they were adhering pretty tightly to the gun. I believe -through ordinary handling of the gun eventually they would have worked -loose and fallen off. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What I can't understand is, when you are talking about -the handling of the gun are you talking about the position in which you -found them, or are you talking about the position which you deduced -they were in before you found them brushed into the crevice? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Well, both. The position I found them in. I had to take -a pair of tweezers and work them out. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. And after I had the fibers lifted up which could have -been the original position they were in, then I had to pull them off. -They were wrapped around rather snugly to the sharp edge. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, returning once more to this question of freshness. -Would you say they had been placed there within 1 hour, or 1 day, or 1 -week of the time when you received the rifle or longer? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I couldn't say in that regard to any period of time. -I refer, by saying they appeared fresh, to the fact that the other -fibers I removed from this gun were greasy, mashed, and broken, where -these were fairly good long fibers. They were not dirty, with the -exception of a little bit of fingerprint powder on them which I cleaned -off, and the color was good. They were in good shape, not fragmented. -They could conceivably have been put on 10 years ago and then the gun -put aside and remain the same. Dust would have settled on them, would -have changed their color a little bit, but as far as when they got on -the gun, I wouldn't be able to say. This would just be speculation on -my part. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In other words, you concluded they were fresh--well, -you said you thought they were fresh, Mr. Stombaugh, and I don't quite -understand now whether you seem to be backing off a little from that? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; I am not trying to do that. I am trying to avoid a -specific time element, since there are other factors which may enter. I -couldn't--this is something that I won't even attempt to do, just say -this was on here for 1 hour or 10 minutes, something like that. - -But I would say these fibers were put on there in the recent past for -this reason. If they had been put on there say 3, 4, 5 weeks or so ago, -and the gun used every day, these fibers would have come off. - -Am I making myself a little more clear? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; you are making yourself clear; yes. - -Now, looking at Exhibit 139, the weapon, and Exhibit 140, the blanket, -do you think it is possible that the bulge you described before, which -you marked "C," might have been caused by some component part of 139, -the rifle? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes. At the time I found the hump in the blanket which I -believed you have marked point C. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is point C on the replica piece of paper you have -folded up, marked Exhibit 663? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I checked the telescopic sight on Exhibit 139, and noted -that the approximate length and general shape of the scope---- - -Mr. DULLES. Exhibit 139 being the blanket? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Being the rifle. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Were approximately the same so far as length and shape -went, and at the time I thought to myself it is quite possible the hump -in the blanket could have been made by that telescopic sight. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to match up the rifle into the blanket -to see if that could be true? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; I didn't want to handle the rifle any more than -possible. I took a ruler and measured the scope and then compared the -measurement with the hump in the blanket and it was approximately the -same. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What about the relationship, the spatial relationship -of the scope to the end of the gun, as compared with the spatial -relationship of the hump in the blanket to the end of the blanket? Were -those matching? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. From the way the blanket was folded at the time, and -from measuring this, and not using the gun itself and putting it in -contact with the blanket, just from measurements, I determined it is -possible that the scope could have made the hump. In other words, the -gun could have fitted in there. But I couldn't be absolutely certain on -any of this. This is just from measurements. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And visual comparison? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. And visual comparison; yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any further information you would like to -give us concerning your examinations of the paper bag, the rifle, the -blanket, or the shirt which we have discussed this morning? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Just the fibers I removed. - -Mr. DULLES. Are you going to go into the relationship of the fibers -that were found in the jagged edge? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. Mr. Stombaugh, did you attempt to determine the -origin of the fibers which were caught in the butt plate of the rifle? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; I did. I tried to match these fibers with the -fibers in the blanket, and found that they had not originated from the -blanket, because the cotton fibers were of entirely different colors. -So I happened to think of the shirt and I made a known sample of the -shirt fibers. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What does that mean? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I removed fibers from the shirt to determine the -composition of it and also the colors. I found that the shirt was -composed of dark-blue, grayish-black, and orangish-yellow cotton -fibers, and that these were the same shades of fibers I had found on -the butt plate of the gun. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you find all three shades? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. All three shades; yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. All three shades were found on the fragments that were -found in the butt of the gun? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you made photographs showing these, color -photographs showing these? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir. Color photographs are very difficult to make -microscopically because the color isn't always identical to what you -see in the microscope. So these colors are slightly off. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You have shown a chart captioned "Microphotograph -Showing Match Between Orange-Yellow Cotton Fibers From Butt Plate of -Assassination Rifle and Orange-Yellow Cotton Fibers From Oswald's -Shirt." Did you take this photograph? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; it was taken under my supervision. - -Mr. EISENBERG. It was taken under your supervision. - -Mr. Chairman, may I submit this as 674. - -Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted, 674. - -(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 674, and was -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is the magnification? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I believe this was 400 also. I am not certain of this, -because the shot itself has also been enlarged. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now you were discussing the reproduction of the color in -the photomicrograph? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir. These are the orangish-yellow fibers. -The color is not exactly the same as what one would see under the -microscope. - -However, you can see that the fibers on both sides, namely, the fiber -from the rifle here, and this---- - -Mr. DULLES. On the right-hand side---- - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. On the right-hand side. - -Mr. DULLES. Of Exhibit 674? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. And the fibers from the shirt, which are on the -left-hand side of Exhibit 674, do match. The colors are the same and -also, we find the same twist in the fiber. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, was the orange-yellow cotton fiber--were the -orange-yellow cotton fibers in the shirt of a uniform shade? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; they were all of a uniform shade. It was what we -would call a uniform dye job. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What about the twist? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The twist was about normal. These, you can see here. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are pointing to the right-hand side and left-hand -side of 674? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. You can see the twist to these fibers. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did they have a uniform twist? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Uniform. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that the match was identical as to twist and shade, -and the fibers in the shirt were uniform in themselves as to these two -characteristics, is that correct? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; that is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take a photograph of the gray-black cotton -fibers? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. These are the gray-black cotton fibers and the color -didn't come out well on these in this instance because of time and -color process limitations. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Just a second. You have a chart here--a -photomicrograph--captioned "Microphotograph Showing Match Between -Gray-Black Cotton Fibers From Butt Plate of Assassination Rifle, etc. -and Gray-Black Cotton Fibers From Oswald's Shirt." - -Did you take these photographs or were they taken under your -supervision? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Under my supervision. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 675? - -Mr. DULLES. 675, it will be admitted. - -(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 675, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The same would apply to Exhibit 675 as to 674, with the -exception of the color. The color on these is much darker and we tried -up to last night to duplicate the exact color and this is the best I -could come up with under the time and color process limitations. It -took us about 4 hours to make a photograph such as this. - -Mr. EISENBERG. There is an apparent match of colors in the -photograph---- - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. But there is one---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. I say, there is an apparent match in photographs, in -color, or is that just my eyes deceiving me? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This one appears to be slightly lighter than this shade. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I see. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. But actually they are both a gray black, almost black in -color. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But under the microscope they were identical, and a -different shade than what we see in Exhibit 675? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In all these cases did you make your determination of -color and match under the microscope, or by use of the photographs? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Under the microscope. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And these are illustrative and prepared for the -Commission's use? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you have a chart of photomicrograph captioned -"Match Between Dark Blue Cotton Fibers From Butt Plate of Assassination -Rifle, etc." Did you prepare these photographs or were they prepared -under your supervision? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Under my supervision. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have these received as Exhibit 676? - -Mr. DULLES. 676. - -(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 676, and was -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is the magnification of 675 and 676, by the way? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. All of these were made at approximately 400 diameters. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you find a color match here? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; the color match of the dark blue cotton fibers -shows rather well in this photograph, Exhibit 676. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now there is also a violet-colored fiber running through -the right-hand side of 676. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; I asked the photographer about this when he -developed this and I said, "Why did we get this, this is not in the -slide at all," and he said that is one of the orange fibers. They use -different techniques in bringing out the blue and the yellow-orange in -a photomicrograph. - -Mr. DULLES. The shades are the fiber of the blanket? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; this shade in the photograph is different from what -that fiber actually is. It is in the development process. I am not too -familiar with color photography. There is an art to it. However, I do -know that there are times and technical limitations on the accuracy of -color reproductions. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Stombaugh, were the shades in--were the shades of -the dark blue cotton fibers uniform throughout the shirt which is -pictured in Commission Exhibit 673? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No sir; the dark blue fibers had some lighter shades and -some slightly darker shades. - -Mr. EISENBERG. About how many different shades? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. There were only about three in this. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you recall how many dark blue fibers you got from the -butt plate? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I believe a total of six or seven fibers from the butt -plate and three of them are blue fibers and all matched. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you recall whether they were one or more shades? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Two shades. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that two of the fibers were two different shades of -blue? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And they matched two different shades of blue in the -shirt out of a total of three different shades of blue? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you testified before there were about 50 to 100 -ranges of shade of green cotton. What about the ranges in shades of -blue cotton? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The same would apply to blue cotton. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the ranges in shades of orange yellow cotton? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The orange-yellow cotton I have here---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. 674. - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. This is a shade of a yellow cotton fiber, it appears -orange yellow under a microscope. Sometimes you get greenish yellow. -These will vary, the orange-yellow shade itself might be only two -variations in orange yellow, but in a greenish yellow it might be 50 to -100. - -Mr. EISENBERG. There was a gray-black cotton fiber in the shirt. Were -they uniform between themselves as to color? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; these were uniform. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How many shades of gray, in the gray-black area, can you -distinguish? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. The gray-black in itself would be similar to the -orange-yellow and would be possibly two or three. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And in the black taken as a broader---- - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Black taken in itself would go from, all the way from, -very grayish-light gray all the way down to dense black. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How many different shades can you distinguish? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Black is different. There are only about 25 or 30 -shades, I would say, in black. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So you identified the fibers you found on the butt plate -as matching the fibers you found in the shirt, not only as to color but -as to shades within those colors, out of a range going from 25 in the -gray-black or black area to 50 to 100 in the yellow and blue areas? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And degrees of twist were all the same? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. They were the same. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Any other characteristics? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Just type of fibers, they were all cotton fibers. - -Mr. EISENBERG. On the basis of these examinations, did you draw a -conclusion as to the probability of the cotton fibers found in the butt -plate having come from the shirt pictured in Exhibit 673? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; it was my opinion that these fibers could -easily have come from the shirt. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you go into that in a little more detail, Mr. -Stombaugh? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes. Mainly because the fibers or the shirt is composed -of point one, cotton, and point two, three basic colors. I found all -three colors together on the gun. - -Now if the shirt had been composed of 10 or 15 different colors and -types of fibers and I only had found 3 of them, then I would feel that -I had not found enough, but I found fibers on the gun which I could -match with the fibers composing this shirt, so I feel the fibers could -easily have come from the shirt. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Stombaugh, I asked you a hypothetical question -before concerning whether the rifle could have been a mechanism for -transferring fibers from the blanket into the paper bag, and as I -recall you said it could have. - -Now, is it inconsistent with that answer that no fibers were found on -the gun which matched the fibers in the blanket? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; because the gun was dusted for fingerprints and any -fibers that were loosely adhering to it could have been dusted off. - -The only reason, I feel, that these fibers remained on the butt plate -is because they were pulled from the fabric by the jagged edge and -adhered to the gun and then the fingerprint examiner with his brush, I -feel, when brushing and dusting this butt plate, stroked them down into -that crevice where they couldn't be knocked off. - -In time these fibers would have undoubtedly become dislodged and fallen -off the gun. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Stombaugh, is there anything you would like to add -to your testimony? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No, sir; I can think of nothing else. - -Mr. DULLES. And you found no other pieces of fabric or other foreign -material on the gun? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Nothing that I could associate with either the blanket -or the shirt. I found---- - -Mr. DULLES. Or the paper bag? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Or the paper bag; no, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Just one further question. You said something like, "It -was possible the fibers could have come from the shirt." Could you -estimate the degree of probability that the fibers came from the shirt, -the fibers in the butt plate? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. Well, this is difficult because we don't know how many -different shirts were made out of this same type of fabric, or for that -matter how many identical shirts are in existence. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Stombaugh, I gather that, and correct me if I am -wrong, that in your area as opposed to the fingerprint area, you prefer -to present the facts rather than draw conclusions as to probabilities, -is that correct? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct. I have been asked this question many -times. There are some experts who will say well, the chances are 1 in -1,000, this, that, and the other, and everyone who had said that and -been brought to our attention we have been able to prove them wrong, -insofar as application to our fiber problems is concerned. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You mean prove them wrong in terms of their mathematics? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. There is just no way at this time to be able to -positively state that a particular small group of fibers came from -a particular source, because there just aren't enough microscopic -characteristics present in these fibers. - -We cannot say, "Yes, these fibers came from this shirt to the exclusion -of all other shirts." - -Mr. EISENBERG. We appreciate your conservatism, but the Commission, -of course, has to make an estimate, and what I am trying to find out -is whether your conservatism, whether your conclusions, reflect the -inability to draw mathematical determinations or conclusions, or -reflect your own doubts? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us which that is? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. There is no doubt in my mind that these fibers could -have come from this shirt. There is no way, however, to eliminate the -possibility of the fibers having come from another identical shirt. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, in your mind what do you feel about the origin of -the fibers you found in the bag? - -Mr. STOMBAUGH. I didn't find enough fibers in the bag to form an -opinion on those. - -Now if I would have found, say 15 or 20 fibers and all 15 or 20 matched -the fibers from the blanket, then I could say, "Yes, I feel that these -very easily could have come from the blanket." But I didn't. I only -found two of the many types. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Okay. I have no further questions. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you have any further questions? - -Mr. MURRAY. No; I have no further questions. - -Mr. DULLES. I have no further questions. - -Thank you, Mr. Stombaugh, we appreciate your coming. - - -TESTIMONY OF JAMES C. CADIGAN - -Mr. DULLES. Would you mind standing and raising your right hand? - -Do you swear the testimony you give before the Commission is the truth, -the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, can you state your full name and position? - -Mr. CADIGAN. James C. Cadigan, special agent of the FBI, assigned as an -examiner of questioned documents in the laboratory here in Washington. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is your education, Mr. Cadigan? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I have a Master of Science degree from Boston College in -Newton, Mass. Upon being appointed in the FBI, I was given on-the-job -training, which consisted of working with various examiners, conducting -experiments, reading books, attending lectures, and so forth. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, how long have you been in the questioned -document field? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Twenty-three and a half years. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And during that time have you examined papers to -determine their possible origin? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you estimate the number of such examinations you -have conducted? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No; not with any degree of accuracy, except many, many -specimens, many, many comparisons. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you testified on that subject in court? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Many times? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I won't say many, no; because most of the testimony I have -given in court relates to other phases of the work. Strictly on paper, -I would say not more than two or three times. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But you have made more than two or three examinations of -paper? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Oh, yes; far more. - -Mr. DULLES. Running into the hundreds and thousands? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this witness admitted as an -expert witness? - -Mr. DULLES. He shall be admitted as an expert on this subject. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I hand you an object made of paper, -Commission Exhibit 142, also known as Commission Exhibit 626, and ask -you if you are familiar with this object? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I am. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And did you examine this object, this paper bag, to -determine its origin, possible origin? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us how you conducted that examination? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -I first saw this paper bag on November 23, 1963, in the FBI laboratory, -along with the sample of paper and tape from the Texas School Book -Depository obtained November 22, 1963, which is FBI Exhibit D-1. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that the sample that you are referring to, that you -are holding in your hand? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that is marked, as you said, "Paper sample from -first floor Texas School Book Depository" and has certain other -markings including the words "shipping department"? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted, Mr. Chairman? - -Mr. DULLES. That may be admitted. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be No. 677. - -Mr. DULLES. 677 may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 677 was marked, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you find out from precisely what portion of the -Texas School Book Depository Building this was obtained, Mr. Cadigan? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; this comes from the first floor, main floor of the -Texas School Book Depository, referred to as the shipping room, the -whole floor. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, did you--who supplied you with this sample, this -Exhibit 677? - -Mr. CADIGAN. This exhibit was brought to the laboratory by Special -Agent Drain of our Dallas office, who brought all of this evidence in -for examination. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to determine whether Exhibit 142 had the -same origin as the paper in Exhibit 677, or might have had the same -origin? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I examined the two papers--do you wish me to state my -opinion? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; please. - -Mr. CADIGAN. Well, initially, I was requested to compare the two papers -to see if they could have originated from the same source. I first -measured the paper and the tape samples. Then I looked at them visually -by natural light, then incident light and transmitted light. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What do you mean by transmitted light? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Well, light coming right on through the paper. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Then---- - -Mr. DULLES. Natural light? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; natural light. - -Mr. DULLES. As distinct from electric light? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Both. In the room I am in you can go over to the window -for natural light and use ceiling light for artificial light which has -a little different property than the outside light. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. CADIGAN. I looked at the papers under various lighting -conditions---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me a minute, Mr. Cadigan, by "transmitted light" -you mean the light transmitted when you hold the object between the -light source and your own eyes? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; then I put it under the microscope, and again looked -at it from the standpoint of the surface, paper structure, the color, -any imperfections. I further noted that on both of the tapes---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. 142 is the paper bag. - -Mr. CADIGAN. On 142 and on the tape on 677 there were a series of marks -right down about the center of the tape. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you see those visually with the unaided eye, or only -under a microscope? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I can see them visually. The microscope makes it look -clearer. - -Mr. DULLES. What are you pointing to now? - -Mr. EISENBERG. This line here. - -Mr. DULLES. Where is this? - -Mr. CADIGAN. These are a series of lines running right here about a -half-inch high, they are very closely spaced. - -Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes; these are perpendicular lines. - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Would you like to see these, Mr. Murray? - -Mr. MURRAY. Yes; thank you. - -Mr. DULLES. They are quite clear, about a tenth of an inch apart or -less than that. - -Mr. CADIGAN. Well, actually they are 24-1/2 spaces per inch, which -would be about 25 lines per inch. - -Mr. MURRAY. Pockmarks? - -Mr. CADIGAN. A series of little short marks right close together. - -Mr. MURRAY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. DULLES. And they run along about how far on this particular exhibit? - -Mr. CADIGAN. They run the whole length of the tape. - -Mr. MURRAY. A comb design. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Comb in the sense that it is a series of---- - -Mr. MURRAY. Comb or rake. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you circle that on 677, and mark the portion "A"? -Can you still make out the lines on Exhibit 640? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Oh, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you circle a portion of the lines on 640 and mark -it--I am sorry, that is 142. - -Mr. CADIGAN. I have marked it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Dulles, would you care to look at it? - -Mr. DULLES. And--oh, yes--and they go over a good deal further than -your circle? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. They run right across. - -Mr. CADIGAN. I might explain that these are made by a wheel in the -paper-tape dispenser. [Referring to an object in the room.] It is -not quite this size, but it is similar to this and it has horizontal -markings running all around the wheel. - -As you pull the operating handle that pulls the paper tape from the -roll through the machine and over the wetting brush, the wheel, in the -process leaves these markings on the tape. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me, Mr. Cadigan, would this be in the type -of tape dispenser which is operated not merely by a handle--by a -handpull--to the tape from the dispenser, but is operated--that is -operated by a lever? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; a lever, a handle. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And a given quantity of tape is dispensed, which you can -cut off or not as you choose--if you want to, you can pull some more -tape and cut it off, is that correct? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And this wheel, as I understand it, when you pull the -lever this wheel forces the paper out? - -Mr. CADIGAN. It turns, and it is really pulling the paper from the roll -and pushing it out from the slot. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That has a slight knurl which grasps the paper? - -Mr. CADIGAN. It has a slight ridge all around it which is the cause of -these marks on the paper tape. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Okay. - -Mr. DULLES. Is that a defect in the mark or a peculiar---- - -Mr. CADIGAN. Oh, no; it is designed that way. Those little, you might -say, in effect, teeth, go into the paper and pull it through smoothly. - -Mr. EISENBERG. If I went into Woolworths and bought a roll of gummed -tape, would it have those marks on it? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Because it only gets the marks when you put it in the -dispensing machine that you have in commercial establishments? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would it be common to have this type of dispensing -machine in a home, by the way? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I doubt very much that you would find it in a home. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, within a commercial establishment, are there more -than one type of dispensing machines? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Oh, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are there types that won't produce these lines at all? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. I might point out, too, that the number of lines -per inch will vary depending on the diameter of that wheel. In this -particular instance I found that there were 24-1/2 spaces, which would -be 25 lines per inch, on both. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I believe that is 142, the bag you are handling, and -677, the sample? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; the markings on the manila tape in both 142 and 677 -were the same. Now, at that time I also had---- - -Mr. DULLES. Could we get just before you continue there, would you -identify what 142 is and 677 is? - -Mr. EISENBERG. 142 is an apparently homemade paper bag which was found -in the southeast corner of the sixth floor of the TSBD following the -assassination, and which, for the record, is a bag which may have -been used to carry this rifle, 139, which was used to commit the -assassination. 677 is a sample of paper and tape--and parenthetically, -tape was used in the construction of 142--677 is a sample of paper and -tape obtained from the Texas School Book Depository on November 22, -1963, that is, the very day of the assassination. - -Mr. DULLES. Obtained by whom, by the FBI? - -Mr. CADIGAN. This was obtained by the Dallas police. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And forwarded to you by the Dallas---- - -Mr. CADIGAN. By the Dallas police through our Dallas office. - -Mr. DULLES. It was obtained after the assassination on that date? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes, sir; the night of November 22. - -At the same time, on November 23, we had an agent come in from Chicago -with samples of paper from Klein's, with the possibility, it was -thought, that the paper sack---- - -Mr. DULLES. Identify Klein's just for the record. - -Mr. CADIGAN. Klein's Sporting Goods Store in Chicago, from which the -Italian rifle was bought. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is Exhibit 139? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Exhibit 139. The agent brought in these paper samples from -Klein's for comparison purposes, and the paper tape, this manila gummed -tape, had these knurl markings measuring 30 per inch. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is the gummed tape you obtained from Klein's? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. It was not identical with this, but merely, you might -say, illustrate that the markings will differ depending on the wheel, -and if your wheel has 30 lines per inch and your other sample is 24 -or 25 lines per inch, you know they didn't come from the same tape -dispenser. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, do these wheels differ as to their diameter -across the bearing surface, the length across the rolling knurled -surface? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I imagine there would be a difference. - -I have made no precise measurement but I imagine they vary within -tolerances of a quarter- or half-inch in width. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would the length of the lines produced on 142 be the -same--the paper bag--the same as the length of the lines produced on -677? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. At what period in connection with the manufacture of the -paper are those lines put on or---- - -Mr. CADIGAN. These are put on after the paper is complete. - -Mr. DULLES. After paper is completely manufactured? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes, sir; that is right. - -Mr. DULLES. And put on by the dispensing machine? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No; the individual buys gummed tape in rolls. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. CADIGAN. Three-inch rolls or inch-and-a-half rolls. He then puts it -on a tape-dispensing machine. - -Mr. DULLES. In his particular organization? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; or his factory or shipping department or wrapping -room. - -Mr. DULLES. I understand. - -Mr. CADIGAN. Once it is in that machine then that wheel will mark the -tape going through the dispenser just before it wets it and you paste -it down. - -Mr. DULLES. Just before, generally just before it is used, then these -markings are put on by the dispensing machine. - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes, sir. - -After examining the papers, comparing them visually and under the -microscope, I examined them under ultraviolet light. This is merely one -additional step. - -Here again I found that both of them fluoresced the same way. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you explain the meaning of that? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. Paper, along with many substances, has the property -of absorbing or reflecting ultraviolet light rays differently. You can -take two samples of paper and put them under an ultraviolet light, and -they may appear to be the same or they may be markedly different. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You mean even if they look the same under visual light? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Visually they may look the same and yet under ultraviolet -light there may be very dramatic differences. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What causes those differences? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Well, the chemicals that are in the paper itself; I think -probably a very common example are the markings on shirts, so-called -invisible dyes which, visually, you do not see, but you put them under -ultraviolet light and the chemical is such that it glows brilliantly. - -So, it is basically a chemical or chemicals in there, in this case, in -the paper being examined under the ultraviolet, which gives a certain -visual appearance, which you can say, it is the same or it is different. - -In all of the observations and physical tests, that I made, I found -that for Exhibit 142, the bag, and the paper sample, Commission Exhibit -677, the results were the same. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you just review those? That was the ultraviolet -light---- - -Mr. CADIGAN. Well, briefly, it would be the thickness of both the paper -and the tape, the color under various lighting conditions of both the -paper and the tape, the width of the tape, the knurled markings on the -surface of the tape, the texture of the fiber, the felting pattern. I -hadn't mentioned this before, but if you hold a piece of paper up to -the light, you see light and dark areas caused by the way the fibers -felt right at the beginning stages of paper manufacture. - -There are light and dark areas, and these are called the felting -pattern. This is something that will vary depending on how the paper -is made, the thickness of the paper, the way that the fibers moved on -the papermaking machine, and here again I found that they were the same -for both the known sample, Commission Exhibit 677, and the paper bag, -Commission Exhibit 142. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In all these cases, did you make the examination both of -the tape and the paper in each of the bag and the sample? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Oh, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And they were all identical? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You mentioned before the thickness. How did you measure -the thickness of the tape and paper? - -Mr. CADIGAN. With a micrometer. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How sensitive is it? - -Mr. CADIGAN. It reads to four places. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How sensitive? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Four decimal places. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that one-hundredths? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That would be one ten-thousandths. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And they were identical in that measurement? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I measured both the paper sack, Exhibit 142, and the -known paper sample, Exhibit 677, at 0.0057 inch, that is fifty-seven -ten-thousandths. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Go ahead, Mr. Cadigan. - -Mr. CADIGAN. Do you want me to discuss this replica sack yet? - -Mr. EISENBERG. You mentioned a replica bag? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you explain what that is? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; this is Commission Exhibit 364. It is a paper sack -similar to Commission Exhibit 142. It was made at the Texas School Book -Depository on December 1, 1963, by special agents of the FBI in Dallas -to show to prospective witnesses, because Commission's Exhibit 142 was -dark and stained from the latent fingerprint treatment and they thought -that this would--it wouldn't be fair to the witness to ask "Did you see -a bag like that?" So they went to the Texas School Book Depository and -constructed from paper and tape a similar bag. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This was made December 1? - -Mr. CADIGAN. December 1, of 1963. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Or some 9 or 10 days after the assassination? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was the paper obtained from the same source? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; from the same room. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The same room. - -Did you examine this paper to see how it compared--that is, the paper -in the replica bag, which has already been admitted as Commission -Exhibit 364--to see how it compared with the paper in the bag found on -the sixth floor of the TSBD, which is Commission's Exhibit 142? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That they were different in color, visual color, -felting--that is, the pattern that you see through transmitted light, -and they were different under ultraviolet light. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that these two papers, which were obtained within 9 -or 10 days from the same source, could be distinguished by you? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you brought an ultraviolet light source with you? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show the Commission the difference between the -three papers? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, we have been unable to find a plug for this -ultraviolet machine, so we will temporarily or perhaps permanently -bypass this examination. But did you find that two of the papers look -the same under the ultraviolet and a third looked different when you -examined it under ultraviolet? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; that is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which two were the identical and which was the different -one? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Well--Commission Exhibit 142 and Commission Exhibit 677--I -observed them to have the same appearance under ultraviolet light, and -that appearance was different from Commission Exhibit 364. - -Mr. DULLES. Can you identify these three exhibits, because otherwise I -think it will be very difficult to get into the record. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, sir; 142 being the bag found on the sixth floor of -the TSBD, 677 being the sample obtained that day from the shipping room -in the Texas School Depository, and 364 being a replica made some ten -days later out of paper obtained some 10 days later. - -Did that complete your examination of the gross or physical -characteristics, as opposed to the microscopic characteristics? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; that in essence was the extent of the examination I -made at that time. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you go on to examine for microscopic characteristics? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I believe I mentioned that at the time I had examined -these papers under the microscope. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You mentioned that at the time? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; earlier this morning. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. - -Could you tell us what the results were of your examination under the -microscope? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Again, I found that the paper sack found on the sixth -floor, Commission Exhibit 142, and the sample secured 11-22, Commission -Exhibit 677, had the same observable characteristics both under the -microscope and all the visual tests that I could conduct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you go into detail as to what you did see under -the microscope? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Well, I think perhaps this photograph, I have an enlarged -photograph, one side being the---- - -Mr. DULLES. Which side is that? - -Mr. EISENBERG. One side marked K-2, and the other Q-10? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; K-2 corresponds to the known paper sample 677. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Obtained from the TSBD? - -Mr. DULLES. What date? - -Mr. CADIGAN. November 22. - -Mr. DULLES. On the day of the assassination? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. And the Q-10 marking is the same as the paper bag -found on the sixth floor, Commission Exhibit 142. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take this photograph or was it taken under your -supervision? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I had it made. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have it in evidence? - -Mr. DULLES. Admitted. - -Mr. CADIGAN. I would like to point out this is only one phase of -the examination and this is a black-and-white photograph. In your -examination under the microscope you are looking at the surface and -memorizing everything about that surface your mind can retain by -putting the two pieces of paper together and studying them back and -forth. I don't wish to imply that that photograph represents all I can -see in a microscope, because it doesn't. - -Mr. EISENBERG. We understand that. May I have this, Mr. Reporter, -marked as 678. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 678 was marked, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. DULLES. That has already been admitted. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. Now, what is the magnification in this Exhibit 678? - -Mr. CADIGAN. It is about 50 times enlarged. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And had you treated the paper chemically before you made -this photograph? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us a little bit about that photograph and -what it shows? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Well, actually all this shows is an enlarged area, a very -small area, I might point out. It merely shows the surface structure, -shows some of the fibers, and shows an imperfection. The dark line down -the center of the photograph is actually a fold in both papers, merely -to bring them close together so that they can be seen together. - -But it gives you some idea of the surface texture, how the fibers lie -in there. In this instance you have two little imperfections in these -fiber bundles here, you can't see the brown-colored fibers that are -actually present. - -Mr. DULLES. That imperfection, however, would not be repeated, would it? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Oh, no; it is purely accidental. - -Mr. DULLES. They are accidental. - -Mr. CADIGAN. They are bundles of fibers in the paper itself. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In your opinion were the two samples identical in the -characteristics shown in this photomicrograph? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; they have the same appearance. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you also break down the papers to test them, to -determine the morphology of the fiber? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. Subsequently, I ran a fiber analysis of the paper, -the known paper sample from the Texas School Book Depository, -Commission Exhibit 677, and the paper bag, Commission Exhibit 142, and -on the same day I had our spectrographic section run a spectrographic -test on these same papers. - -Mr. DULLES. Do I understand correctly, though, you have testified that -a sample taken 10 days later was different--or approximately 10 days -later? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Approximately 10 days. - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; this was a sample taken December 1. I could tell -that it was different from this sample, 677, taken on the day of the -assassination, and different from the bag, Exhibit 142. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you happen to know whether another roll was put in the -machine between the 22d and the 1st of December? - -Mr. CADIGAN. May we go off the record? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. On the record. - -Do you know whether the Dallas office of the FBI has attempted to make -a determination as to whether the replica paper bag, the paper in the -replica paper bag, prepared on December 1, Commission No. 364, was, or -may have been, or wasn't taken from the same roll as the replica piece -of paper or the sample piece of paper, Exhibit 677, which was obtained -from the Depository November 22? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And can you tell us what you understand the results of -their investigation to have been? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; they were unable to determine whether the paper from -the replica sack, Exhibit 364, came from the same roll or a different -roll as the known sample obtained November 22. Commission Exhibit 677. - -I understand that in the fall, the Depository is busy, and could very -well have changed rolls, but no records are kept along that line. - -Mr. DULLES. Changed rolls in that time, 10-day period? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes, sir. Actually there were 4 working days in that -period. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. But am I not correct that there probably or maybe -certainly, I would like to have your view on that, was no change in -the roll between the day before the assassination and the night of the -assassination, that is between paper bag, Exhibit No. 142, and the -specimen that was taken on the night of the day of the assassination? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I can't tell you that, sir. I have no way of knowing, -because these papers are similar in all observable physical -characteristics, and they are different from a sample obtained on -December 1. I would suspect that this were true. But I can't---- - -Mr. DULLES. I realize that. - -Mr. CADIGAN. I cannot make a positive statement on that. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you any information as to whether the paper during -the period between November 22 and December 1 used in the TSBD--whether -it was the same or different rolls--would have come from the same -ultimate manufacturer? - -Mr. CADIGAN. It is my understanding that they received a shipment of -58 rolls of paper that were shipped March 19, 1963, from the St. Regis -Paper Mill in Jacksonville. Fla., and which lasted them until January -of 1964. This would mean on an average, in a 9-month period, a little -more than six rolls a month. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The inference would therefore be that if the--although -the papers in the replica bag obtained on December 1 and the paper in -the sample obtained on November 22 are distinguishable by you, they -came from the same manufacturer, and--is that correct? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And, therefore, that the state of your science is -such that you can distinguish even rolls of paper made by the same -manufacturer and assumedly made within a reasonably close time, is that -correct also? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I don't know what period of time is involved here. But -I can distinguish at least in this case between paper from the same -shipment from the same mill. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you proceed now to discuss the morphology of the -fiber as you examined it under a microscope? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Well, I might state briefly what a fiber analysis is. We -put samples of paper back into their, you might say, original state, in -the form of fiber suspension. - -You cook samples of paper for a couple of minutes in weak sodium -hydroxide solution. Then you wash it, add water and shake it -vigorously, and you get a suspension of fibers in the water. Samples -of those fibers are put on glass slides and are stained by various -reagents. - -Then you examine them under a high-power comparison microscope or a -binocular microscope under approximately 120 times magnification. In -this particular case I used two different stains. - -First a malachite green stain. This merely determines if there are -any unbleached fibers, or if they are all bleached. I found that on -both Commission Exhibit 677, the paper sample obtained on November 22, -and the paper sack, Commission Exhibit 142, that they are almost 100 -percent unbleached fibers. - -Then I stained other samples, with a stain known as Herzberg stain. It -is an iodine-iodide stain, which will distinguish between rag fibers, -chemical wood fibers, and ground wood fibers by different coloring. The -chemical wood is stained blue, rag fibers are stained red, ground wood -stained yellow. - -I made and studied specimens or slides of fibers from Commission -Exhibit 677, the known sample, and from Commission Exhibit 142, the -paper sack, to see if the fiber composition is similar. What that means -is, is this chemical wood, is it coniferous or deciduous, are there any -rag fibers in there or are there any ground wood fibers in there, and -I found here the fiber composition was similar and essentially it is a -coniferous woodlike pine. There were a few stray rag fibers, which I -think were probably accidental, and a few stray ground wood fragments -in there. - -Mr. DULLES. Let me get clearly what is similar, that is the paper bag, -Exhibit---- - -Mr. CADIGAN. 142; the paper comprising that sack and the paper -comprising the known sample obtained November 22, Exhibit 677. - -Mr. DULLES. Right. - -Mr. CADIGAN. The papers I also found were similar in fiber composition, -therefore, in addition to the visual characteristics, microscopic and -UV characteristics. - -Mr. EISENBERG. "UV" being ultraviolet? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes, sir. Then I had a spectrographic examination made of -the paper from the sack, 142, and the known sample secured November 22, -Commission Exhibit 677. - -Spectrographic tests involve, of course, burning the substance and -capturing the light on a photographic plate to determine what metallic -ions are present. This was done by our spectrographic section, and -again the paper of Commission Exhibit 677, the paper sample, secured -November 22, was found to be similar spectrographically to the paper of -the sack, Commission Exhibit 142. - -Now, these were additional tests, the original examinations, under -visual and ultraviolet light were made by me on November 23, 1963. -Fiber analysis and the spectrographic examination were conducted on -March 25, 1964. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you now reviewed all the points in which you -compared the paper sack obtained from the TSBD, Exhibit 142, and the -known sample obtained on November 22, Exhibit 677? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you find any points of nonidentity? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No; I found none. - -Mr. EISENBERG. They were identical on every point on which you measured -them? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, did you notice when you looked at the bag -whether there were--that is the bag found on the sixth floor, Exhibit -142--whether it had any bulges or unusual creases? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I was also requested at that time to examine the bag -to determine if there were any significant markings or scratches or -abrasions or anything by which it could be associated with the rifle, -Commission Exhibit 139, that is, could I find any markings that I could -tie to that rifle. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes? - -Mr. CADIGAN. And I couldn't find any such markings. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, was there an absence of markings which would be -inconsistent with the rifle having been carried in the bag? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No; I don't see--actually, I don't know the condition of -the rifle. If it were in fact contained in this bag, it could have -been wrapped in cloth or just the metal parts wrapped in a thick layer -of cloth, or if the gun was in the bag, perhaps it wasn't moved too -much. I did observe some scratch marks and abrasions but was unable -to associate them with this gun. The scratch marks in the paper could -come from any place. They could have come from many places. There were -no marks on this bag that I could say were caused by that rifle or any -other rifle or any other given instrument. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was there any absence of markings or absence of bulges -or absence of creases which would cause you to say that the rifle was -not carried in the paper bag? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is whether it had been wrapped or not wrapped? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That is something I can't say. - -Mr. DULLES. Would the scratches indicate there was a hard object inside -the bag, as distinct from a soft object that would make no abrasions or -scratches? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Well, if you were to characterize it that way, yes. I mean -there were a few scratches here. What caused them, I can't say. A hard -object; yes. Whether that hard object was part of a gun---- - -Mr. DULLES. I understand. - -Mr. CADIGAN. And so forth---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. I am not sure you understood a question I asked one or -two questions ago. - -I just want to make clear here if the gun was not wrapped in a -cloth--let's assume hypothetically that the gun was not wrapped in -a cloth and was, also hypothetically, inserted into this paper bag. -Is there any absence of marks which would lead you to believe that -this hypothesis I just made couldn't be--that is, that it couldn't be -inserted, without a covering, into the paper bag without leaving more -markings than were present? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No. The absence of markings to me wouldn't mean much. I -was looking for markings I could associate. The absence of marks, the -significance of them, I don't know. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, getting back to the paper bag, 142, and the tape -thereon, just for a second, and the tape found on the, obtained from -the, TSBD on November 22, Exhibit 677, were the widths of the tapes the -same? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Similar. They were not exactly the same; no. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain that? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; the width of the tape on the paper sack, Exhibit 142, -I measured at 3 inches, and the width of the manila tape on Exhibit -677 obtained the night of November 22, I measured as 2.975. There is -twenty-five one-thousandths of an inch difference. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would that lead you to believe that they couldn't have -come from the same roll? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No; certainly not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Not enough of a variation to lead to that conclusion? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How wide do these rolls come in your experience, in what -widths do they come? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Normally they are supplied in, I believe, 1-, 1-1/2-, 2-, -2-1/2-, and 3-inch widths. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So this was basically of a 3-inch width variety out of -several possible alternatives? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any other information you would like to give us -or any other testimony you would like to give us on the subject of the -origin of the paper in the 142 bag? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Well, possibly the comparisons made of paper samples from -Jaggars Chiles-Stovall and from the William B. Riley Co. - -Mr. EISENBERG. These are, you have mentioned two companies at which -Oswald was employed at one time? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You obtained paper from these companies, did you? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you matched them to see if they matched--you tested -them to see if they matched the paper in the bag 142, is that correct? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; that is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And your conclusion was what? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That they were different. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. Anything else? - -Mr. CADIGAN. That is about it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman---- - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Murray, do you have any questions? - -Mr. MURRAY. I don't believe I have, Mr. Commissioner, but I would like -to mention this off the record, if I may. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. We have now the ultraviolet machine set up. - -Could you just show us the difference in fluorescence? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain what you have set up here, Mr. Cadigan? - -Mr. CADIGAN. This is a portable ultraviolet viewer I used to examine -the papers and I think probably what is most noticeable is in the -manila tapes. The tape on the right is the sample secured November 22. -The tape at the top is from the bag 142, and then the one in the, you -might say, lower left, toward the bottom, is the tape that was secured -December 1. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are referring to positions in the bottom of the -ultraviolet machine? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; relative position. - -Mr. DULLES. The one at the left is the one taken from the paper sack, -isn't it? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Top left; yes; that would be from 142. - -Mr. DULLES. 142, and the other is---- - -Mr. CADIGAN. The one on the right is 677. - -Mr. DULLES. What am I supposed to see? - -Mr. CADIGAN. A difference in the appearance, difference in color. - -Mr. DULLES. What do you mean? I see the violet and I see the white. - -Mr. CADIGAN. Well, if you look at the two tape samples---- - -Mr. DULLES. This tape sample on upper left hand is covered up by this -one. I wonder whether you shouldn't take out the later one? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I think probably that would be better. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Why don't you show Mr. Dulles the paper bag, 142, and -the sample obtained November 22? - -Mr. DULLES. Yes; those are the two we are most interested in. - -Mr. CADIGAN. The observation I would make there is that the color of -the tape on Exhibit 142, the sack, and the color of the paper of the -sack 142, under UV, is the same as the color of the tape on 677 and the -color of the paper. - -Mr. DULLES. I agree on that. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Let the record show that Mr. Dulles makes the statement -as he is looking in the machine. Mr. Cadigan, why don't you compare -it---- - -Mr. CADIGAN. By comparison---- - -Mr. DULLES. This is only as to color, that is all I saw. I saw some -markings on it. - -Mr. CADIGAN. That is right. This is only for color appearance under the -ultraviolet light. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Why don't you compare the sack found at the TSBD and the -replica sack obtained 10 days later? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Here again all that should be observed is the color under -UV of both the paper and tape of the sample and the paper and tape of -Exhibit 364. - -Mr. DULLES. 364 is the paper bag, isn't it? - -Mr. CADIGAN. 364 is the replica sack obtained on December 1. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Ten days later. - -Mr. DULLES. That is on the left? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. And the other is the sack? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No; the other on your right is the sample of paper -obtained on November 22. - -Mr. DULLES. November 22, just after the assassination? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. There is a clear distinction here. The sample to the right, -that is, as I understand it, paper obtained on the evening of November -22, has a more, a deeper violet shade, and on the other hand, the tape -is much lighter than the tape on the sample obtained 10 days later. -That is to say that the sample 10 days later is darker as to the tape -but lighter as to the paper. - -Would you like the opportunity, Mr. Murray? - -Mr. MURRAY. No, thank you. - -Mr. EISENBERG. We are putting in the sack and 364, the 10-day later -sample. - -Mr. DULLES. Sack and 10-day later sample. Which is on which side? - -Mr. CADIGAN. The sack is on the left and the replica bag obtained on -December 1 is on the right. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. I find there that the sample obtained 10 days later, -and the sack which is on the left, that the sample obtained 10 days -later shows a lighter shade of purple than the sack, and that the tape -shows a darker shade of, I would call it, almost gray as against almost -white for the tape which is on the sack. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I have no further questions, Mr. Dulles. - -Mr. DULLES. Have you anything that you feel you should add, anything in -this general field that would help the Commission? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No, sir; not as it relates to this paper and these paper -bags. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You will be called later for testimony on handwriting--I -suppose you will be the person to testify? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Whenever you want me I will be available. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine the tape for microscopic--to determine -the morphology of the fibers in the paper? - -Mr. CADIGAN. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us why? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I didn't feel it was necessary. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I wonder whether you could do that, Mr. Cadigan, and -send us a letter as to the results? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Certainly. - -(The letter referred to was later supplied and is set forth at the end -of this testimony.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. And also, did you notice how the glue had been applied -to the tapes? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; you might say glue was applied all the way across the -tapes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. There are no discernible differences in them? - -Mr. CADIGAN. The glue on the tapes would be applied with a brush at the -time of manufacture. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is there more than one way of applying glue? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Oh, yes. On some tapes, if you look at them either -before or after they are used you will see a continuous line running -right down the tape where they have used a wheel applicator, merely a -difference in manufacturing methods. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But you found a brush applicator? - -Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Will the same manufacturer use two different methods? - -Mr. CADIGAN. He might or might not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In your experience, is it likely that he would use two -different methods? - -Mr. CADIGAN. I really couldn't say. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Cadigan, I thank you very much for your most -interesting and helpful testimony. - -(Whereupon, at 1:50 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - -(Following is the text of a letter relating to the fiber composition of -the gummed tapes in Exhibits 142 and 677.) - - - UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, - FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION, - _Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964_. - [By Courier Service]. - -Hon. J. LEE RANKIN, - -_General Counsel, the President's Commission, 200 Maryland Avenue NE., -Washington, D.C._ - -DEAR MR. RANKIN: During the testimony of Special Agent James C. Cadigan -on April 3, 1964, before the President's Commission, Mr. Melvin -Eisenberg of your staff orally requested Special Agent Cadigan to make -a fiber analysis of the gummed tape on the paper sack found on the -sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building, Commission -Exhibit 142, and of the sample of gummed tape in Commission Exhibit -677 Obtained November 22, 1963, at the Texas School Book Depository -Building. - -Fiber analysis of the two gummed tapes in Commission Exhibits 142 and -677 revealed that they were similar in fiber composition. - - Sincerely yours, - J. EDGAR HOOVER. - - - - -_Tuesday, April 21, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT ROEDER SHAW, DR. CHARLES FRANCIS GREGORY, GOV. -JOHN BOWDEN CONNALLY, JR., AND MRS. JOHN BOWDEN CONNALLY, JR. - -The President's Commission met at 1:30 p.m., on April 21, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator Richard B. -Russell, Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, John -J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members. - -Also present present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Francis -W. H. Adams, assistant counsel; Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; -David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; -Arlen Specter, assistant counsel; Charles Murray and Charles Rhyne, -observers; and Waggoner Carr, attorney general of Texas. - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT ROEDER SHAW - -Senator COOPER. The Commission will come to order. - -Dr. Shaw, you understand that the purpose of this inquiry is taken -under the order of the President appointing the Commission on the -assassination of President Kennedy to investigate all the facts -relating to his assassination. - -Dr. SHAW. I do. - -Senator COOPER. And report to the public. - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Dr. SHAW. I do. - -Senator COOPER. Do you desire an attorney to be with you? - -Dr. SHAW. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? - -Dr. SHAW. Robert Roeder Shaw. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, please? - -Dr. SHAW. Physician and surgeon. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background? - -Dr. SHAW. I received my B.A. degree from the University of Michigan in -1927, and my M.D. degree from the same institution in 1933. - -Following that I served 2 years at the Roosevelt Hospital in New York -City from July 1934, to July 1936, in training in general surgery. I -had then 2 years of training in thoracic surgery at the University -Hospital, Ann Arbor, Mich., from July 1936 to July 1938. - -On August 1, 1938, I entered private practice limiting my practice to -thoracic surgery in Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. DULLES. What kind of surgery? - -Dr. SHAW. Thoracic surgery or surgery of the chest. I have practiced -there continuously except for a period from June 1942, until December -1945, when I was a member of the Medical Corps of the Army of the -United States serving principally in the European theater of operations. - -I was away again from December 1961, until June of 1963, when I was -head of the MEDICO team and performed surgery at Avicenna Hospital in -Kabul, Pakistan. - -Mr. DULLES. Will you tell us a little bit about MEDICO. Is that the -ship? - -Dr. SHAW. No; that is HOPE. MEDICO was formed by the late Dr. Tom -Dooley. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes; I know him very well. He was the man in Laos. - -Dr. SHAW. Yes, sir; this was one of their projects. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. - -Dr. SHAW. I returned to---- - -Mr. DULLES. An interesting project. - -Dr. SHAW. I returned to Dallas and on September 1, 1963, started -working full time with the University of Texas Southwestern Medical -School as professor of thoracic surgery and chairman of the division of -thoracic surgery. - -In this position I also am chief of thoracic surgery at Parkland -Memorial Hospital in Dallas which is the chief hospital from the -standpoint of the medical facilities of the school. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you licensed to practice medicine in the State of -Texas? - -Dr. SHAW. I am. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you certified? - -Dr. SHAW. By the board of thoracic surgery you mean? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; by the board of thoracic surgery. - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; as of 1948. - -Mr. SPECTER. What experience, if any, have you had, Dr. Shaw, with -bullet wounds? - -Dr. SHAW. I have had civilian experience, both in the work at Parkland -Hospital, where we see a great amount of trauma, and much of this -involves bullet wounds from homicidal attempts and accidents. - -The chief experience I had, however, was during the Second World War -when I was serving as chief of the thoracic surgery center in Paris, -France. And during this particular experience we admitted over 900 -patients with chest wounds of various sort, many of them, of course, -being shell fragments rather than bullet wounds. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the total number of -bullet wounds you have had experience with? - -Dr. SHAW. It would be approximately 1,000, considering the large number -of admissions we had in Paris. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties in a general way on November 22, -1963. - -Dr. SHAW. On that particular date I had been at a conference at -Woodlawn Hospital, which is our hospital for medical chest diseases -connected with the medical school system. I had just gone to the -Children's Hospital to see a small patient that I had done a -bronchoscopy on a few days before and was returning to Parkland -Hospital, and the medical school. - -Woodlawn and the Children's Hospital are approximately a mile away from -Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you called upon to render any aid to President -Kennedy on November 22? - -Dr. SHAW. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you called upon to render medical aid to Gov. John B. -Connally on that day? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe briefly the circumstances surrounding -your being called into the case. - -Dr. SHAW. As I was driving toward the medical school I came to an -intersection of Harry Hines Boulevard and Industrial Boulevard. - -There is also a railroad crossing at this particular point. I saw an -open limousine pass this point at high speed with a police escort. -We were held up in traffic because of this escort. Finally, when we -were allowed to proceed, I went on to the medical school expecting to -eat lunch. I had the radio on because it was the day that I knew the -President was in Dallas and would be eating lunch at the Trade Mart -which was not far away, and over the radio I heard the report that the -President had been shot at while riding in the motorcade. I went on to -the medical school and as I entered the medical school a student came -in and joined three other students, and said the President has just -been brought into the emergency room at Parkland, dead on arrival. - -The students said, "You are kidding, aren't you?" and he said, "No, -I am not. I saw him, and Governor Connally has been shot through the -chest." - -Hearing that I turned and walked over to the emergency room, which -is approximately 150 yards from the medical school, and entered the -emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency -room where Governor Connally was situated? - -Dr. SHAW. As near as I could tell it was about 12:45. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was with Governor Connally, if anyone, at that time, -Dr. Shaw? - -Dr. SHAW. I immediately recognized two of the men who worked with me in -thoracic surgery, Dr. James Duke and Dr. James Boland, Dr. Giesecke, -who is an anesthesiologist, was also there along with a Dr. David -Mebane who is an instructor in general surgery. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was Governor Connally's condition at that time, based -on your observations? - -Dr. SHAW. The Governor was complaining bitterly of difficulty in -breathing, and of pain in his right chest. Prior to my arriving there, -the men had very properly placed a tight occlusive dressing over what -on later examination proved to be a large sucking wound in the front of -his right chest, and they had inserted a rubber tube between the second -and third ribs in the front of the right chest, carrying this tube to -what we call a water seal bottle. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is done to reexpand the right lung which had -collapsed due to the opening through the chest wall. - -Mr. SPECTER. What wounds, if any, did you observe on the Governor at -that time? - -Dr. SHAW. I observed no wounds on the Governor at this time. It wasn't -until he was taken to the operating room that I properly examined him -from the standpoint of the wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long after your initial viewing of him was he taken to -the operating room? - -Dr. SHAW. Within about 5 minutes. I stepped outside to talk to Mrs. -Connally because I had been given information by Dr. Duke that -blood had been drawn from the Governor, sent to the laboratory for -cross-matching for blood that we knew would be necessary, that the -operating room had already been alerted, and that they were ready and -they were merely awaiting my arrival. - -Mr. SPECTER. How was Governor Connally transported from the emergency -room to the operating room? - -Dr. SHAW. On a stretcher. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was he transported up an elevator as well? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. It is two floors above the emergency rooms. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe what happened next in connection with -Governor Connally's---- - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question, putting in this tube is prior to -making an incision? - -Mr. SHAW. Yes; a stab wound. - -Mr. DULLES. Just a stab wound? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What treatment next followed for Governor Connally, Doctor? - -Dr. SHAW. He was taken to the operating room and there Dr. Giesecke -started the anesthesia. This entails giving an intravenous injection of -sodium pentothal and then after the Governor was asleep a gas was used, -that will be on the anesthetic record there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know at approximately what time this procedure was -started? - -Dr. SHAW. I will have to refresh my memory again from the record. We -had at the time I testified before, we had the---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to make available to you a copy of the Parkland -Memorial Hospital operative record and let me ask you, first of all, -if you can identify these two pages on an exhibit heretofore marked -as Commission Exhibit 392 as to whether or not this constitutes your -report? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is a transcription of my dictated report of the -operation. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are the facts set forth therein true and correct? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. On this it states that the operation itself was begun at -1300 hours or 1 o'clock, 1 p.m., and that the actual surgery started at -1335 or 1:35 p.m. - -The operation was concluded by me at 3--1520 which would be 3:20 p.m. - -Mr. SPECTER. You have described, in a general way, the chest wound. -What other wounds, if any, was Governor Connally suffering from at the -time you saw him? - -Dr. SHAW. I will describe then the wound of the wrist which was -obvious. He had a wound of the lower right forearm that I did not -accurately examine because I had already talked to Dr. Gregory while -I was scrubbing for the operation, told him that this wound would -need his attention as soon as we were able to get the chest in a -satisfactory condition. There was also, I was told, I didn't see the -wound, on the thigh, I was told that there was a small wound on the -thigh which I saw later. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you first have an opportunity then to examine -Governor Connally's wound on the posterior aspect of his chest? - -Dr. SHAW. After the Governor had been anesthetized. As soon as he was -asleep so we could manipulate him--before that time it was necessary -for an endotracheal tube to be in place so his respirations could be -controlled before we felt we could roll him over and accurately examine -the wound entrance. - -We knew this was the wound exit. - -Mr. SPECTER. This [indicating an area below the right nipple on the -body]? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. How did you know it was a wound exit. - -Dr. SHAW. By the fact of its size, the ragged edges of the wound. This -wound was covered by a dressing which could not be removed until the -Governor was anesthetized. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating this wound, the wound on the Governor's chest? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; the front part. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe in as much detail as you can the wound -on the posterior side of the Governor's chest? - -Dr. SHAW. This was a small wound approximately a centimeter and a -half in its greatest diameter. It was roughly elliptical. It was just -medial to the axillary fold or the crease of the armpit, but we could -tell that this wound, the depth of the wound, had not penetrated the -shoulder blade. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics, if any, which indicated to -you that it was a wound of entrance then? - -Dr. SHAW. Its small size, and the rather clean cut edges of the wound -as compared to the usual more ragged wound of exit. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now I hand you a diagram which is a body diagram on -Commission Exhibit No. 679, and ask you if, on the back portion of -the figure, that accurately depicts the point of entry into Governor -Connally's back? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. The depiction of the point of entry, I feel is quite -accurate. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the front side of the body, is the -point of exit accurately shown on the diagram? - -Dr. SHAW. The point is---- - -Mr. SPECTER. We have heretofore, may the record show the deposition -covered much the same ground with Dr. Shaw, but the diagrams used now -are new diagrams which will have to be remarked in accordance with your -recollection. - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. Because I would have to place--they are showing here the -angle. - -Mr. DULLES. Is this all on the record? - -Mr. SPECTER. It should be. - -Dr. SHAW. We are showing on this angle, the cartilage angle which it -makes at the end of the sternum. - -Mr. SPECTER. That is an inverted =V= which appears in front of the body? - -Dr. SHAW. Now the wound was above that. They have shown it below that -point so the wound would have to be placed here as far as the point is -concerned. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw on that diagram a more accurate depiction -of where the wound of exit occurred? - -Dr. SHAW. Do you want me to initial this? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; if you please, Dr. Shaw. - -I hand you another body diagram marked Commission Exhibit 680 and I -will ask you if that accurately depicts the angle of decline as the -bullet passed through Governor Connally? - -Dr. SHAW. I think the declination of this line is a little too sharply -downward. I would place it about 5 deg. off that line. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you redraw the line then, Dr. Shaw, and initial it, -indicating the more accurate angle? - -Dr. SHAW. The reason I state this is that as they have shown this, it -would place the wound of exit a little too far below the nipple. Also -it would, since the bullet followed the line of declination of the -fifth rib, it would make the ribs placed in a too slanting position. - -Mr. SPECTER. What operative procedures did you employ in caring for the -wound of the chest, Dr. Shaw. - -Dr. SHAW. The first measure was to excise the edges of the wound of -exit in an elliptical fashion, and then this incision was carried in a -curved incision along the lateral portion of the right chest up toward -the right axilla in order to place the skin incision lower than the -actual path of the bullet through the chest wall. - -After this incision had been carried down to the level of the muscles -attached to the rib cage, all of the damaged muscle which was chiefly -the serratus anterior muscle which digitates along the fifth rib at -this position, was cleaned away, cut away with sharp dissection. - -As soon as--of course, this incision had been made, the opening through -the parietal pleura, which is the lining of the inside of the chest was -very obvious. It was necessary to trim away several small fragments -of the rib which were still hanging to tags of periosteum, the lining -of the rib, and the ragged ends of the rib were smoothed off with a -rongeur. - -Mr. SPECTER. What damage had been inflicted upon a rib, if any, Dr. -Shaw? - -Dr. SHAW. About 10 centimeters of the fifth rib starting at the, about -the mid-axillary line and going to the anterior axillary line, as we -describe it, or that would be the midline at the armpit going to the -anterior lateral portion of the chest had been stripped away by the -missile. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the texture of the rib at the point where the -missile struck? - -Dr. SHAW. The texture of the rib here is not of great density. The -cortex of the rib in the lateral portions of our ribs, is thin with the -so-called cancellus portion of the rib being very spongy, offering very -little resistance to pressure or to fracturing. - -Mr. SPECTER. What effect, if any, would the striking of that rib have -had to the trajectory of the bullet? - -Dr. SHAW. It could have had a slight, caused a slight deflection of the -rib, but probably not a great deflection of the rib, because of the -angle at which it struck and also because of the texture of the rib at -this time. - -Mr. SPECTER. You say deflection of the rib or deflection of the bullet? - -Dr. SHAW. Deflection of the bullet, I am sorry. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was any metallic substance from the bullet left in the -thoracic cage as a result of the passage of the bullet through the -Governor's body? - -Dr. SHAW. No. We saw no evidence of any metallic material in the X-ray -that we had of the chest, and we found none during the operation. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you brought the X-rays with you, Dr. Shaw, from -Parkland Hospital? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; we have them here. - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show we have available a viewer for the -X-rays. - -Dr. Shaw, would you, by use of the viewer, exhibit the X-rays of -the Governor's chest to show more graphically that which you have -heretofore described? - -Dr. SHAW. This is the first X-ray that was taken, which was taken in -the operating room with the Governor on the operating table, and at -this time anesthetized. The safety pin that you see here is used, was -used, to secure the tube which had been put between the second and -third rib in expanding the Governor's lung. - -We can dimly see also the latex rubber tube up in the chest coming to -the apex of the chest. - -The variations that we see from normal here are the fact that first, -there is a great amount of swelling in the chest wall which we know was -due to bleeding and bruising of the tissues of the chest wall, and we -also see that there is air in the tissues of the chest wall here and -here. It is rather obvious. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say here and here, you are referring to the outer -portions, showing on the X-ray moving up toward the shoulder area? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; going from the lower chest up to the region near the -angle of the shoulder blade. - -The boney framework of the chest, it is obvious that the fifth rib, -we count ribs from above downward, this is the first rib, second rib, -third rib, fourth rib, fifth rib, that a portion of this rib has been -shattered, and we can see a few fragments that have been left behind. - -Also the rib has because of being broken and losing some of its -substance, has taken a rather inward position in relation to the fourth -and the sixth ribs on either side. - -Mr. SPECTER. What effect was there, if any, on the upper portion of -that rib? - -Dr. SHAW. This was not noticed at the time of this examination, Mr. -Specter. However, in subsequent examinations we can tell that there was -a fracture across the rib at this point due to the rib being struck and -bent. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say this point, will you describe where that -point exists on the X-ray? - -Dr. SHAW. This is a point approximately 4 centimeters from its -connection with the transverse process of the spine. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is the fracture, which is located there, caused by a -striking there or by the striking at the end of the rib? - -Dr. SHAW. It is caused by the striking at the end of the rib. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine. What else then is discernible from the viewing of -the X-ray, Dr. Shaw? - -Dr. SHAW. There is a great amount of, we would say, obscuration of -the lower part of the right lung field which we know from subsequent -examination was due to blood in the pleural cavity and also due to a -hematoma in the lower part of the right lower lobe and also a severe -laceration of the middle lobe with it having lost its ability to -ventilate at that time. So, we have both an airless lung, and blood in -the lung to account for these shadows. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else visible from the X-ray which is -helpful in our understanding of the Governor's condition? - -Dr. SHAW. No; I don't think so. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would it be useful--As to that X-ray, Dr. Shaw, will -you tell us what identifying data, if any, it has in the records of -Parkland Hospital, for the record? - -Dr. SHAW. On this X-ray it has in pencil John G. Connally. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that G or C? - -Dr. SHAW. They have a "G" November 22, 1963, and it has number 218-922. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were those X-rays taken under your supervision? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes, by a technician. - -Mr. SPECTER. And that is, in fact, the X-ray then which was taken of -Governor Connally at the time these procedures were being performed? - -Dr. SHAW. It is. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, would any of the other X-rays be helpful in our -understanding of the Governor's condition? - -Dr. SHAW. I believe the only--perhaps showing one additional X-ray -would show the fracture previously described which was not easily -discernible on the first film. This is quite often true but not -important to the--here is the fracture that can be easily seen. - -Mr. SPECTER. You are now referring to a separate and second X-ray. - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you start out by telling us on what date this X-ray -was performed. - -Dr. SHAW. This X-ray was made on the 29th of November 1963, 7 days -following the incident. - -Mr. SPECTER. What does it show of significance? - -Dr. SHAW. It shows that there has been considerable clearing in the -lower portion of the lung, and also that there is a fracture of the -fifth rib as previously described approximately 4 centimeters from the -transverse process posteriorly. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else depicted by that X-ray of material -assistance in evaluating the Governor's wound? - -Dr. SHAW. No. - -Mr. McCLOY. Were there any photographs taken as distinguished from -X-rays of the body? - -Dr. SHAW. There were no photographs. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, we shall then, subject to the approval of the -Commission, for the record, have the X-rays reproduced at Parkland -Memorial Hospital, and, if possible, also have a photograph of the -X-ray made for the permanent records of the Commission to show the -actual X-ray, which Dr. Shaw has described during his testimony here -this afternoon. - -Senator COOPER. It is directed that it be made a part of the record of -these hearings. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, what additional operative procedures did you -perform on Governor Connally's chest? - -Dr. SHAW. I will continue with my description of the operative -procedure. The opening that had been made through the rib after the -removal of the fragments was adequate for further exploration of the -pleural cavity. A self-retaining retractor was put into place to -maintain exposure. Inside the pleural cavity there were approximately -200 cc. of clotted blood. - -It was found that the middle lobe had been lacerated with the -laceration dividing the lobe into roughly two equal parts. The -laceration ran from the lower tip of the middle lobe up into its root -or hilum. - -However, the lobe was not otherwise damaged, so that it could be -repaired using a running suture of triple zero chromic catgut. - -The anterior basal segments of the right lower lobe had a large -hematoma, and blood was oozing out of one small laceration that was -a little less than a centimeter in length, where a rib fragment had -undoubtedly been driven into the lobe. To control hemorrhage a single -suture of triple zero chromic gut was placed in this laceration. There -were several small matchstick size fragments of rib within the pleural -cavity. Examination, however, of the pericardium of the diaphragm and -the upper lobe revealed no injury to these parts of the chest. - -A drain was placed in the eighth space in the posterior axillary line -similar to the drain which had been placed in the second interspace in -the front of the chest. - -The drain in the front of the chest was thought to be a little too long -so about 3 centimeters of it were cut away. - -Attention was then turned on the laceration of the latissimus dorsi -muscle where the missile had passed through it. Several sutures of -chromic gut where used to repair this muscle. - -The incision was then closed with interrupted No. zero chromic gut in -the muscles of the chest wall--first, I am sorry, in the intercostale -muscle, and muscles of the chest wall, and the same suture material was -used to close the serratus anterior muscle in the subcutaneous tissue, -and interrupted vertical sutures of black silk were used to close the -skin. - -Attention was then turned to the wound of entrance which, as previously -described, was about a centimeter and a half in its greatest diameter, -roughly elliptical in shape. The skin edges of this wound were -incised--excised, I beg your pardon--I have to go back just a little -bit. - -Prior to examination of this wound, a stab wound was made at the -angle of the scapula to place a drain in the subscapular space. In -the examination of the wound of entrance, the examining finger could -determine that this drain was immediately under the wound of entrance, -so that it was adequately draining the space. - -Two sutures were placed in the facia of the muscle, and the skin was -closed with interrupted vertical matching sutures of black silk. - -That concluded the operation. Both tubes were connected to a water seal -bottle, and the dressing was applied. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was in charge then of the subsequent care on the -Governor's wrist? - -Dr. SHAW. Dr. Charles Gregory who had been previously alerted and then -came in to take care of the wrist. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the wound on the wrist, did you have -any opportunity to examine it by way of determining points of entry and -exit? - -Dr. SHAW. My examination of the wrist was a very cursory one. I could -tell that there was a compound comminuted fracture because there was -motion present, and there was a ragged wound just over the radius above -the wrist joint. But that was the extent of my examination of the wrist. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, did I take your deposition at Parkland Memorial -Hospital on March 23 of 1964? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; you did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Has that deposition been made available to you? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. To you here this afternoon? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you subsequent to the giving of that deposition on -March 23, 1964, had an opportunity to examine Governor Connally's -clothing which we have available in the Commission room here today? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, based on all facts now within your knowledge, is -there any modification which you would care to make in terms of the -views which you expressed about entrance and exit wounds back on March -23, based on the information which was available to you at that time? - -Dr. SHAW. From an examination of the clothing, it is very obvious that -the wound of entrance was through the coat sleeve. - -Mr. SPECTER. While you are testifying in that manner, perhaps it would -be helpful if we would make available to you the actual jacket, if it -pleases the Commission. - -We shall reserve Exhibits Nos. 681 for the X-ray of November 22; 682 -for the X-ray of November 29; and we shall now mark a photograph of the -coat for our permanent records as "Commission Exhibit No. 683". - -Dr. Shaw, I hand you at this time what purports to be the coat worn -by Governor Connally, which we introduce subject to later proof when -Governor Connally appears later this afternoon; and, for the record, -I ask you first of all if this photograph, designated as Commission -Exhibit No. 683, is a picture of this suit coat? - -Dr. SHAW. It is. - -Mr. SPECTER. I had interrupted you when you started to refer to the -hole in the sleeve of the coat. Will you proceed with what you were -testifying about there? - -Dr. SHAW. The hole in the sleeve of the coat is within half a -centimeter of the very edge of the sleeve, and lies---- - -Mr. DULLES. This is the right sleeve, is it not? - -Dr. SHAW. I am sorry, yes. Thank you. Of the right sleeve, and places -it, if the coat sleeve was in the same position, assuming it is in the -same position that my coat sleeve is in, places it directly over the -lateral portion of the wrist, really not directly on the volar or the -dorsum of the surface of the wrist, but on the lateral position or the -upper position, as the wrist is held in a neutral position. - -Mr. SPECTER. With the additional information provided by the coat, -would that enable you to give an opinion as to which was the wound of -entrance and which the wound of exit on the Governor's wrist? - -Dr. SHAW. There is only one tear in the Governor's garment as far as -the appearance of the tear is concerned, I don't think I could render -an opinion as to whether this is a wound of entrance or exit. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then, do you have sufficient information at your disposal -in total, based on your observations and what you know now to give any -meaningful opinion as to which was the wound of entrance and which the -wound of exit on the Governor's wrist? - -Dr. SHAW. I would prefer to have Dr. Gregory testify about that, -because he has examined it more carefully than I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine. - -Mr. DULLES. Could you tell at all how the arm was held from that mark -or that hole in the sleeve? - -Dr. SHAW. Mr. Dulles, I thought I knew just how the Governor was -wounded until I saw the pictures today, and it becomes a little bit -harder to explain. - -I felt that the wound had been caused by the same bullet that came out -through the chest with the Governor's arm held in approximately this -position. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right hand held close to the body? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes, and this is still a possibility. But I don't feel that -it is the only possibility. - -Senator COOPER. Why do you say you don't think it is the only -possibility? What causes you now to say that it is the location---- - -Dr. SHAW. This is again the testimony that I believe Dr. Gregory will -be giving, too. It is a matter of whether the wrist wound could be -caused by the same bullet, and we felt that it could but we had not -seen the bullets until today, and we still do not know which bullet -actually inflicted the wound on Governor Connally. - -Mr. DULLES. Or whether it was one or two wounds? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Or two bullets? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; or three. - -Mr. DULLES. Why do you say three? - -Dr. SHAW. He has three separate wounds. He has a wound in the chest, a -wound of the wrist, a wound of the thigh. - -Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes; we haven't come to the wound of the thigh yet, -have we? - -Mr. McCLOY. You have no firm opinion that all these three wounds were -caused by one bullet? - -Dr. SHAW. I have no firm opinion. - -Mr. McCLOY. That is right. - -Dr. SHAW. Asking me this now if it was true. If you had asked me a -month ago I would have. - -Mr. DULLES. Could they have been caused by one bullet, in your opinion? - -Dr. SHAW. They could. - -Mr. McCLOY. I gather that what the witness is saying is that it is -possible that they might have been caused by one bullet. But that he -has no firm opinion now that they were. - -Mr. DULLES. As I understand it too. Is our understanding correct? - -Dr. SHAW. That is correct. - -Senator COOPER. When you say all three are you referring to the wounds -you have just described to the chest, the wound in the wrist, and also -the wound in the thigh? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. It was possible? - -Dr. SHAW. Our original assumption, Senator Cooper, was that the -Governor was approximately in this attitude at the time he was---- - -Senator COOPER. What attitude is that now? - -Dr. SHAW. This is an attitude sitting in a jump seat as we know he -was, upright, with his right forearm held across the lower portion of -the chest. In this position, the trajectory of the bullet could have -caused the wound of entrance, the wound of exit, struck his wrist and -proceeded on into the left thigh. But although this is a possibility, -I can't give a firm opinion that this is the actual way in which it -occurred. - -Mr. SPECTER. If it pleases the Commission, we propose to go through -that in this testimony; and we have already started to mark other -exhibits in sequence on the clothing. So that it will be more -systematic, we plan to proceed with the identification of clothing and -then go on to the composite diagram which explains the first hypothesis -of Dr. Shaw and the other doctors of Parkland. And then proceed from -that, as I intend to do, with an examination of the bullet, which will -explore the thinking of the doctor on that subject. - -Dr. Shaw, for our record, I will hand you Commission Exhibit No. 684 -and ask you if that is a picture of the reverse side of the coat, which -we will later prove to have been worn by Governor Connally, the coat -which is before you? - -Dr. SHAW. It is. - -Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, appears on the back of that coat and -also on the picture in line with the wound which you have described on -the Governor's posterior chest? - -Dr. SHAW. The picture--the coat and the picture of the coat, show a -rent in the back of the coat approximately 2-centimeters medial to -the point where the sleeve has been joined to the main portion of the -garment. - -The lighter-colored material of the lining of the coat can be seen -through this rent in the coat. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, I show you a shirt, subject to later proof that -it was the shirt worn by Governor Connally, together with a photograph -marked "Commission Exhibit No. 685," and ask you if that is a picture -of that shirt, the back side of the shirt? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; it is a picture of the back side of the shirt. However, -in this particular picture I am not able to make out the hole in the -shirt very well. - -Now I see it, I believe; yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the hole as you see it to exist in the -shirt? Aside from what you see on the picture, what hole do you observe -on the back of the shirt itself? - -Dr. SHAW. On the back of the shirt itself there is a hole, a punched -out area of the shirt which is a little more than a centimeter in its -greater diameter. The whole shirt is soiled by brown stains which could -have been due to blood. - -Mr. SPECTER. How does the hole in the back of the shirt correspond with -the wound on the Governor's back? - -Dr. SHAW. It does correspond exactly. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now turning the same shirt over to the front side, I -ask you if the photograph, marked "Commission Exhibit No. 386," is a -picture of the front side of this shirt? - -Dr. SHAW. It is. - -Mr. SPECTER. What does the picture of the shirt show with respect to a -hole, if any, on the right side of the front of the shirt? - -Dr. SHAW. The picture and the shirt show on the right side a much -larger rent in the garment with the rent being approximately 4 -centimeters in its largest diameter. - -Mr. SPECTER. What wound, if any, did the Governor sustain on his thigh, -Dr. Shaw? - -Mr. DULLES. Just one moment, are you leaving this? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. I wonder whether or not it would not be desirable for -the doctor to put on this photograph where these holes are, because -they are not at all clear for the future if we want to study those -photographs. - -Dr. SHAW. This one is not so hard. - -Mr. DULLES. That one appears but the other one doesn't appear and I -think it would be very helpful. - -Dr. SHAW. How would you like to have me outline this? - -Mr. SPECTER. Draw a red circle of what you conceive to be the hole -there, Doctor. - -Mr. DULLES. The actual hole is not nearly as big as your circle, it is -the darkened area inside that circle, is it not? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; the darkened area is enclosed by the circle. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to note on the photograph of the back of the -shirt, 685? - -Will you draw a red circle around the area of the hole on the -photograph then, Dr. Shaw? - -Mr. DULLES. Would you just initial those two circles, if you can. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, what wounds, if any, did the Governor sustain on -his left thigh? - -Dr. SHAW. He sustained a small puncture-type wound on the medial aspect -of the left thigh. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to examine that closely? - -Dr. SHAW. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to examine it sufficiently to -ascertain its location on the left thigh? - -Dr. SHAW. No; I didn't examine it that closely, except for its general -location. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was it with respect to a general location then on -the Governor's thigh? - -Dr. SHAW. It is on the medial anterior aspect of the thigh. - -Mr. DULLES. Nontechnically, what does it mean? - -Dr. SHAW. Well, above, slightly above, between, in other words, the -medial aspect would be the aspect toward the middle of the body, but as -far as being how many centimeters or inches it is from the knee and the -groin, I am not absolutely sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a pair of trousers which we shall later -identify as being those worn by the Governor. I will, first of all, ask -you if a photograph bearing Commission Exhibit No. 687 is a picture of -those trousers? - -Dr. SHAW. It is. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what hole, if any did you observe on the trousers and -on the picture of the trousers? - -Dr. SHAW. There is a hole in the garment that has been made by some -instrument which has carried away a part of the Governor's garment. In -other words, it is not a tear but is a punched out hole, and this is -approximately 4 centimeters on the inner aspect from the crease of the -trousers. - -Mr. DULLES. Can you tell where the knee is there and how far above the -knee approximately? - -Dr. SHAW. I can't tell exactly. - -Mr. DULLES. I guess you can't tell. - -Dr. SHAW. From the crotch I would say it would be slightly, it is a -little hard to tell, slightly more toward the knee than the groin. - -Mr. SPECTER. Does that hole in the left leg of the trousers match up to -the wound on the left thigh of the Governor? - -Dr. SHAW. To the best of my recollection it does. - -Mr. DULLES. Are there any other perforations in these trousers at all, -any other holes? - -Dr. SHAW. No. - -Mr. DULLES. So that means that whatever made the hole on the front side -did not come through and make a hole anywhere else in the trousers? - -Dr. SHAW. That is correct. It had to be a penetrating wound and not a -perforating wound, it didn't go on through. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you turn those trousers over, Dr. Shaw? - -Dr. SHAW. I believe we had already looked at it. - -Mr. SPECTER. On the reverse side, and state whether or not this picture -bearing Commission Exhibit No. 688 accurately depicts the reverse side -of the trousers? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; it does. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any hole shown either on the picture or on the -trousers themselves? - -Dr. SHAW. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, I now show you a body diagram which is marked -"Commission Exhibit No. 689." - -Senator COOPER. May I ask a question before you ask that question? - -When you first saw Governor Connally in the emergency room was he -dressed or undressed? - -Dr. SHAW. His trousers were still on. He had his shorts on, I should -say, Senator Cooper, but his coat, shirt, and trousers had been removed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were his clothes anywhere in the vicinity where you could -have seen them? - -Dr. SHAW. No; I never saw them. This is the first time that I saw them. - -Mr. SPECTER. That is earlier today when you examined them in this room? - -Dr. SHAW. That is correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 689, is that a drawing -which was prepared, after consultation with you, representing the -earlier theory of all of the Governor's wounds having been inflicted by -a single missile? - -Dr. SHAW. That is correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. With reference to that diagram, would you explain the -position that you had earlier thought the Governor to have been in when -he was wounded here? - -Dr. SHAW. We felt that the Governor was in an upright sitting position, -and at the time of wounding was turning slightly to the right. This -would bring the three wounds, as we know them, the wound in the chest, -the wound in the wrist, and the wound in the thigh into a line assuming -that the right forearm was held against the lower right chest in front. - -The line of inclination of this particular diagram is a little more -sharply downward than is probably correct in view of the inclination of -the ribs of the chest. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you redraw that line, Dr. Shaw, to conform with what -you believe to be---- - -Dr. SHAW. The fact that the muscle bundles on either side of the -fifth rib were not damaged meant that the missile to strip away 10 -centimeters of the rib had to follow this rib pretty much along its -line of inclination. - -Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you could use that red pencil to make it a -little clearer for us? - -Dr. SHAW. I think these would probably work well on this paper. Perhaps -this isn't a tremendous point but it slopes just a little too much. - -Mr. SPECTER. You have initialed that to show your incline? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the wound you described on the thigh, Dr. -Shaw, was there any point of exit as to that wound? - -Dr. SHAW. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now show you---- - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one more question there, how deep was the wound -of entry, could you tell at all? - -Dr. SHAW. Mr. Dulles, I didn't examine the wound of the thigh so I -can't testify as to that. Dr. Gregory, I think, was there at the time -that the debris was carried out and he may have more knowledge than I -have. - -Mr. DULLES. We will hear Dr. Gregory later? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; he is scheduled to testify as soon as Dr. Shaw -concludes. - -Dr. Shaw, I now show you Commission Exhibit 399 which has heretofore -been identified as being a virtually whole bullet weighing 158 grains. - -May I say for the record, that in the depositions which have been taken -in Parkland Hospital, that we have ascertained, and those depositions -are part of the overall record, that is the bullet which came from the -stretcher of Governor Connally. - -First, Dr. Shaw, have you had a chance to examine that bullet earlier -today? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; I examined it this morning. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible that the bullet which went through the -Governor's chest could have emerged being as fully intact as that -bullet is? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; I believe it is possible because of the fact that the -bullet struck the fifth rib at a very acute angle and struck a portion -of the rib which would not offer a great amount of resistance. - -Mr. SPECTER. Does that bullet appear to you to have any of its metal -flaked off? - -Dr. SHAW. I have been told that the one point on the nose of this -bullet that is deformed was cut off for purposes of examination. -With that information, I would have to say that this bullet has lost -literally none of its substance. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the wound on the thigh, could that bullet have -gone into the Governor's thigh without causing any more damage than -appears on the face of that bullet? - -Dr. SHAW. If it was a spent bullet; yes. As far as the bullet is -concerned it could have caused the Governor's thigh wound as a spent -missile. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why do you say it is a spent missile, would you elaborate -on what your thinking is on that issue? - -Dr. SHAW. Only from what I have been told by Dr. Shires and Dr. -Gregory, that the depth of the wound was only into the subcutaneous -tissue, not actually into the muscle of the leg, so it meant that -missile had penetrated for a very short period. Am I quoting you -correctly, Dr. Gregory? - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show Dr. Gregory is present during this -testimony and---- - -Dr. GREGORY. I will say yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And indicates in the affirmative. Do you have sufficient -knowledge of the wound of the wrist to render an opinion as to whether -that bullet could have gone through Governor Connally's wrist and -emerged being as much intact as it is? - -Dr. SHAW. I do not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, assume if you will certain facts to be true -in hypothetical form, that is, that the President was struck in the -upper portion of the back or lower portion of the neck with a 6.5-mm. -missile passing between the strap muscles of the President's neck, -proceeding through a facia channel striking no bones, not violating -the pleural cavity, and emerging through the anterior third of the -neck, with the missile having been fired from a weapon having a muzzle -velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the muzzle being -approximately 100 to 250 feet from the President's body; that the -missile was a copper jacketed bullet. Would it be possible for that -bullet to have then proceeded approximately 4 or 5 feet and then would -it be possible for it to have struck Governor Connally in the back and -have inflicted the wound which you have described on the posterior -aspect of his chest, and also on the anterior aspect of his chest? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what would your reason be for giving an affirmative -answer to that question, Dr. Shaw? - -Dr. SHAW. Because I would feel that a missile with this velocity and -weight striking no more than the soft tissues of the neck would have -adequate velocity and mass to inflict the wound that we found on the -Governor's chest. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, without respect to whether or not the bullet -identified as Commission Exhibit 399 is or is not the one which -inflicted the wound on the Governor, is it possible that a missile -similar to the one which I have just described in the hypothetical -question could have inflicted all of the Governor's wounds in -accordance with the theory which you have outlined on Commission -Exhibit No. 689? - -Dr. SHAW. Assuming that it also had passed through the President's neck -you mean? - -Mr. SPECTER. No; I had not added that factor in. I will in the next -question. - -Dr. SHAW. All right. As far as the wounds of the chest are concerned, -I feel that this bullet could have inflicted those wounds. But the -examination of the wrist both by X-ray and at the time of surgery -showed some fragments of metal that make it difficult to believe that -the same missile could have caused these two wounds. There seems to be -more than three grains of metal missing as far as the--I mean in the -wrist. - -Mr. SPECTER. Your answer there, though, depends upon the assumption -that the bullet which we have identified as Exhibit 399 is the bullet -which did the damage to the Governor. Aside from whether or not that -is the bullet which inflicted the Governor's wounds. - -Dr. SHAW. I see. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could a bullet traveling in the path which I have -described in the prior hypothetical question, have inflicted all of the -wounds on the Governor? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And so far as the velocity and the dimension of the bullet -are concerned, is it possible that the same bullet could have gone -through the President in the way that I have described and proceed -through the Governor causing all of his wounds without regard to -whether or not it was bullet 399? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you started to comment about it not being possible, -was that in reference to the existing mass and shape of bullet 399? - -Dr. SHAW. I thought you were referring directly to the bullet shown as -Exhibit 399. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion as to whether bullet 399 could have -inflicted all of the wounds on the Governor, then, without respect at -this point to the wound of the President's neck? - -Dr. SHAW. I feel that there would be some difficulty in explaining all -of the wounds as being inflicted by bullet Exhibit 399 without causing -more in the way of loss of substance to the bullet or deformation of -the bullet. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, have you had an opportunity today here in the -Commission building to view the movies which we referred to as the -Zapruder movies and the slides taken from these movies? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what, if any, light did those movies shed on your -evaluation and opinions on this matter with respect to the wounds of -the Governor? - -Dr. SHAW. Well, my main interest was to try to place the time that the -Governor was struck by the bullet which inflicted the wound on his -chest in reference to the sequence of the three shots, as has been -described to us. - -(At this point the Chief Justice entered the hearing room.) - -This meant trying to carefully examine the position of the Governor's -body in the car so that it would fall in line with what we knew the -trajectory must be for this bullet coming from the point where it has -been indicated it did come from. And in trying to place this actual -frame that these frames are numbered when the Governor was hit, my -opinion was that it was frame number, let's see, I think it was No. 36. - -Mr. SPECTER. 236? - -Dr. SHAW. 236, give or take 1 or 2 frames. It was right in 35, 36, 37, -perhaps. - -Mr. SPECTER. I have heretofore asked you questions about what -possibly could have happened in terms of the various combinations of -possibilities on missiles striking the Governor in relationship to -striking the President as well. Do you have any opinion as to what, in -fact, did happen? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. From the pictures, from the conversation with Governor -Connally and Mrs. Connally, it seems that the first bullet hit the -President in the shoulder and perforated the neck, but this was not the -bullet that Governor Connally feels hit him; and in the sequence of -films I think it is hard to say that the first bullet hit both of these -men almost simultaneously. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that view based on the information which Governor -Connally provided to you? - -Dr. SHAW. Largely. - -Mr. SPECTER. As opposed to any objectively determinable facts from the -bullets, the situs of the wounds or your viewing of the pictures? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. I was influenced a great deal by what Governor Connally -knew about his movements in the car at this particular time. - -Mr. DULLES. You have indicated a certain angle of declination on this -chart here which the Chief Justice has. - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know enough about the angle of declination of the -bullet that hit the President to judge at all whether these two angles -of declination are consistent? - -Dr. SHAW. We know that the angle of declination was a downward one from -back to front so that I think this is consistent with the angle of -declination of the wound that the Governor sustained. - -Senator COOPER. Are you speaking of the angle of declination in the -President's body? - -Dr. SHAW. Of the first wound? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Dr. SHAW. First wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. What you have actually seen from pictures to show the -angle of declination? - -Dr. SHAW. That is right. - -Mr. SPECTER. In the wounds in the President's body? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; that is right. I did not examine the President. - -Mr. DULLES. And that angle taking into account say the 4 feet -difference between where the President was sitting and where the -Governor was sitting, would be consistent with the point of entry of -the Governor's body as you have shown it? - -Dr. SHAW. The jump seat in the car, as we could see, placed the -Governor sitting at a lower level than the President, and I think -conceivably these two wounds could have been caused by the same bullet. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add, Dr. Shaw, which you -think would be helpful to the Commission in any way? - -Dr. SHAW. I don't believe so Mr. Specter. - -Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission then I would like to move -into evidence Commission Exhibits Nos. 679 and 680, and then reserve -Nos. 681 and 682 until we get the photographs of the X-rays and I now -move for admission into evidence Commission Exhibits Nos. 683 through -689. - -Senator COOPER. They have all been identified, have they? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; during the course of Dr. Shaw's testimony. - -Senator COOPER. It is ordered then that these exhibits be received in -the record. - -(The documents referred to, previously identified as Commission -Exhibits Nos. 679, 680, and 683-689 for identification were received in -evidence.) - -Mr. McCLOY. Just one or two questions. It is perfectly clear, Doctor, -that the wound, the lethal wound on the President did not--the bullet -that caused the lethal wound on the President, did not cause any wounds -on Governor Connally, in your opinion? - -Dr. SHAW. Mr. McCloy, I couldn't say that from my knowledge. - -Mr. McCLOY. We are talking about the, following up what Mr. Dulles -said about the angle of declination, the wound that came through the -President's collar, you said was consistent between the same bullet. I -just wondered whether under all the circumstances that you know about -the President's head wound on the top that would also be consistent -with a wound in Governor Connally's body? - -Dr. SHAW. On the chest, yes; I am not so sure about the wrist. I can't -quite place where his wrist was at the time his chest was struck. - -Mr. McCLOY. Now perhaps this is Dr. Gregory's testimony, that is the -full description of the wrist wound, that would be his rather than your -testimony? - -Dr. SHAW. I think he could throw just as much light on it as I could. -And more in certain aspects. - -Mr. McCLOY. It did hit bone? - -Dr. SHAW. Obviously. - -Mr. McCLOY. And there must have been a considerable diminution in the -velocity of the bullet after penetrating through the wrist? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. The wound inflicted on it, the chest wound on Governor -Connally, if you move that an inch or two, 1 inch or the other, could -that have been lethal, go through an area that could easily have been -lethal? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; of course, if it had been moved more medially it could -have struck the heart and the great vessels. - -Mr. McCLOY. Let me ask you this, Doctor, in your experience with -gunshot wounds, is it possible for a man to be hit sometime before he -realizes it? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. There can be a delay in the sensory reaction. - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes; so that a man can think as of a given instant he was -not hit, and when actually he could have been hit. - -Dr. SHAW. There can be an extending sensation and then just a gradual -building up of a feeling of severe injury. - -Mr. McCLOY. But there could be a delay in any appreciable reaction -between the time of the impact of the bullet and the occurrence? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; but in the case of a wound which strikes a bony -substance such as a rib, usually the reaction is quite prompt. - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes. - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. Now, you have indicated, I think, that this bullet traveled -along, hit and traveled along the path of the rib, is that right? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. Is it possible that it could have not, the actual bullet -could not have hit the rib at all but it might have been the expanding -flesh that would cause the wound or the proper contusion, I guess you -would call it on the rib itself? - -Dr. SHAW. I think we would have to postulate that the bullet hit the -rib itself by the neat way in which it stripped the rib out without -doing much damage to the muscles that lay on either side of it. - -Mr. McCLOY. Was--up until you gave him the anesthetic--the Governor was -fully conscious, was he? - -Dr. SHAW. I would not say fully, but he was responsive. He would answer -questions. - -Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all I have. - -The CHAIRMAN. I have no questions of the doctor. - -Mr. DULLES. There were no questions put to him that were significant as -far as our testimony is concerned? - -Dr. SHAW. No; we really don't have to question him much. Our problem -was pretty clearcut, and he told us it hurt and that was about his only -response as far as---- - -Senator COOPER. Could I ask you a question, doctor? - -I think you said from the time you came into the emergency room and the -time you went to the operating room was about 5 minutes? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; it was just the time that it took to ask a few simple -questions, what has been done so far, and has the operating room been -alerted, and then I went out and talked to Mrs. Connally, just very -briefly, I told her what the problem was in respect to the Governor and -what we were going to have to do about it and she said to go ahead with -anything that was necessary. So this couldn't have taken more than 5 -minutes or so. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he say anything or did anyone say anything there about -the circumstances of the shooting? - -Dr. SHAW. Not at that time. - -Mr. DULLES. Either of Governor Connally or the President? - -Dr. SHAW. Not at that time. All of our conversation was later. - -Mr. DULLES. Was the President in the same room? - -Dr. SHAW. No. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you see him? - -Dr. SHAW. I only saw his shoes and his feet. He was in the room -immediately opposite. As I came into the hallway, I could recognize -that the President was on it, in the room to my right. I knew that my -problem was concerned with Governor Connally, and I turned and went -into the room where I saw that he was. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you hear at that time or have any knowledge, of a -bullet which had been found on the stretcher? - -Dr. SHAW. No; this was later knowledge. - -Mr. DULLES. When did you first hear that? - -(At this point Senator Russell entered the hearing room.) - -Dr. SHAW. This information was first given to me by a man from the -Secret Service who interviewed me in my office several weeks later. It -is the first time I knew about any bullet being recovered. - -Senator COOPER. I think, of course, it is evident from your testimony -you have had wide experience in chest wounds and bullet wounds in the -chest. - -What experience have you had in, say, the field of ballistics? Would -this experience--you have been dealing in chest wounds caused by -bullets--have provided you knowledge also about the characteristics of -missiles, particularly bullets of this type? - -Dr. SHAW. No; Senator. I believe that my information about ballistics -is just that of an average layman, no more. Perhaps a little more since -I have seen deformed bullets from wounds, but I haven't gone into that -aspect of wounds. - -Senator COOPER. In the answers to the hypothetical questions that were -addressed to you, based upon the only actual knowledge which you could -base that answer, was the fact that you had performed the operation on -the wound caused in the chest, on the wound in the chest? - -Dr. SHAW. That is true. I have seen many bullets that have passed -through bodies or have penetrated bodies and have struck bone and I -know manners from which they are deformed but I know very little about -the caliber of bullets, the velocity of bullets, many things that other -people have much more knowledge of than I have. - -Senator COOPER. That is all. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Dr. Shaw. - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES FRANCIS GREGORY - -Senator COOPER. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are going to -give to this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing -but the truth, so help you God? - -Dr. GREGORY. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Dr. GREGORY. Doctor Charles Francis Gregory. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir? - -Dr. GREGORY. I am a physician and surgeon. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline your educational background briefly, -please? - -Dr. GREGORY. I received a bachelor of science degree from the -University of Indiana in 1941, and an M.D. degree in medicine from the -Indiana University School of Medicine in 1944. - -Following 1-year internship and a tour of duty in the U.S. Navy, I -undertook 5 years of postgraduate training in orthopedic surgery at -Indiana University Medical Center. - -Upon completing that training I became a member of the faculty at -Indiana University Medical School, and remained so until November of -1952, when I reentered the U.S. Navy for another 20 months. - -In 1956 I was appointed professor and then chairman of the Division -of Orthopedic Surgery at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical -School, where I presently am. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you certificated by the American Board of Orthopedic -Surgery? - -Dr. GREGORY. I am, in 1953. - -Mr. SPECTER. What experience, if any, have you had with bullet wounds, -Doctor? - -Dr. GREGORY. Beyond the rather indigenous nature of such wounds in the -main teaching hospital at Southwestern Medical School, my experience -has covered a tour of duty in the Navy during World War II, and a -considerably more active period of time in the Korean war in support of -the 1st Marine Corps Division. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the total number of -bullet wounds you have had an opportunity to observe and treat? - -Dr. GREGORY. I would estimate that I have dealt directly with -approximately 500 such wounds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you a licensed doctor in the State of Texas at the -present time? - -Dr. GREGORY. I am. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties in a general way back on November -22, 1963, with Parkland Hospital? - -Dr. GREGORY. On that date, November 22, 1963, I was seeing patients in -the health service of the adjacent medical school building when about -noon I was advised that the President of the United States had been -admitted to Parkland Hospital due to gunshot injuries. - -I went immediately to the emergency room area of the Parkland Hospital, -and upon gaining admission to the emergency room, I encountered the -hospital superintendent. - -I inquired of him then as to whether or not the President had injuries -which might require my attention and he indicated that they were not of -that nature. - -I, therefore, took a number of unnecessary onlookers like myself from -the emergency area in order to reduce the confusion, and I went to the -fifth floor of the hospital, which is the orthopedic ward. - -And after attending a number of patients there, I prepared to leave the -hospital, but stopped by the surgical suite on my way out, to check and -see if any need for my services might have come up, and encountered -there Dr. Shaw who indicated to me that Governor Connally had also been -injured, and that these included injuries to his extremities for which -I would be retained. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Shaw then call upon you to perform operative aid -for Governor Connally? - -Dr. GREGORY. He did. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when did you first see Governor Connally then? - -Dr. GREGORY. I first saw Governor Connally after Dr. Shaw had prepared -him and draped him for the surgical procedures which he carried out on -the Governor's chest. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have any opportunity to observe the wound on -the Governor's chest? - -Dr. GREGORY. I could see the wounds on the Governor's chest, but I -could see them only through the apertures available in the surgical -drapes, and therefore I had difficulty orienting the exact positions of -the wounds, except for the wound identified as the wound of exit which -could be related to the nipple in the right chest which was exposed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now what did you observe with respect to the wound on the -Governor's wrist? - -Dr. GREGORY. I did not have an opportunity to examine the wound on the -Governor's wrist until Dr. Shaw had completed his surgical treatment of -the Governor's chest wound. - -At that time he was turned to his back and it was possible to examine -both the right upper extremity and the left lower extremity for wounds -of the wrist and left thigh respectively. - -The right wrist was the site of a perforating wound, which by -assumption began on a dorsal lateral surface. In lay terms this is -the back of the hand on the thumb side at a point approximately 5 -centimeters above the wrist joint. - -There is a second wound presumed to be the wound of exit which lay in -the midline of the wrist on its palmar surface about 2 centimeters, -something less than 1 inch above the wrist crease, the most distal -wrist crease. - -Mr. SPECTER. You say that the wound on the dorsal or back side of the -wrist you assume to be the wound of entrance. What factors, if any, led -you to that assumption? - -Dr. GREGORY. I assumed it to be a wound of entrance because of the -general ragged appearance of the wound, but for other reasons which I -can delineate in a lighter description which came to light during the -operative procedure and which are also hallmarked to a certain extent -by the X-rays. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you proceed to tell us, even though it is out of -sequence, what those factors, later determined to be, were which led -you to assume that it was the wound of entrance? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes. Assuming that the wrist wound, which included a -shattering fracture of the wrist bone, of the radial bone just above -the wrist, was produced by a missile there were found in the vicinity -of the wound two things which led me to believe that it passed from -the dorsal or back side to the volar. The first of these---- - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say volar what do you mean by that? - -Dr. GREGORY. The palm side. - -Mr. SPECTER. Proceed. - -Dr. GREGORY. The first of these was evidence of clothing, bits of -thread and cloth, apparently from a dark suit or something of that sort -which had been carried into the wound, from the skin into the region of -the bone. - -The second of these were two or three small fragments of metal which -presumably were shed by the missile after their encounter with the firm -substance which is bone. - -Mr. SPECTER. As to the bits of cloth which you describe, have you had -an opportunity earlier today to examine a coat, heretofore identified -and marked by a picture bearing Commission Exhibit No. 683, which we -will have later testimony on as being Governor Connally's coat? - -Dr. GREGORY. I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did your examination disclose with -respect to the wound of the right wrist? - -Dr. GREGORY. Well, the right sleeve of the coat has a tear in it close -to the margin at a point which is, I think, commensurate with the -location of the dorsal surface, the back side of the wrist, forearm -where the two may have been superimposed and both damaged by the same -penetrating body. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is the nature of the material of the suit coat the same as -that which you found in the wound of the wrist? - -Dr. GREGORY. It is. As a matter of fact, at the time that the wound was -treated, and the cloth was found, the speculation was made as to the -kind of--the color of the suit the Governor was wearing and moreover -the thread was almost identifiable as mohair or raw silk or something -of that nature and entirely consistent with this fabric. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the color, which you speculated about, the same as -which you see in this jacket? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes; it was my impression it was black or either dark blue. - -Mr. SPECTER. You say there was something in the X-ray work which led -you to further conclude that that was the wound of entrance? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you proceed now to show the Commission those X-rays, -please? - -Dr. GREGORY. This is an X-ray made in the lateral view of the -Governor's wrist at the time he was brought to the hospital prior to -any surgical intervention. - -Mr. SPECTER. As to the first X-ray, Dr. Gregory, would you identify the -date when it was taken? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes; this film was made on November 22, 1963, as indicated -by a pencil marking on that film, and it further bears the assigned -X-ray number of 219-992, which was that of the patient, Governor John -Connally. - -Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission we shall reserve number 690 -and 691 for later identification of those photographs and X-rays. - -Senator COOPER. So ordered. - -Dr. GREGORY. If you will notice in addition to the apparent fracture of -this, the radial bone here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you now describing a second X-ray? - -Dr. GREGORY. No; these are two taken at right angle of the Governor's -wrist prior to attention. These are diagnostic film, one made with the -hand palm down and one with the hand turned 90 deg. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do they bear identical numbers then? - -Dr. GREGORY. They do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any mark on them at the present time which -distinguishes them by way of marking or number? - -Dr. GREGORY. Other than the pencil markings on each of these two films -and my own which I attached last evening for convenience. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you mark one of them as "A" and one as "B," so that -when you describe them here we will know which you are referring to? - -Dr. GREGORY. Very well. Let the record show that "A" stands for the -anteroposterior view, Exhibit No. 691, and "B" stands for the lateral -view, Exhibit No. 690, of the right wrist and forearm. "A" then -demonstrates a comminuted fracture of the wrist with three fragments. - -Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by comminuted? - -Dr. GREGORY. Comminuted refers to shattering, to break into more than -two pieces, specifically many pieces, and if I may, I can point out -there is a fragment here, a fragment here, a fragment here, a fragment -here, and there are several smaller fragments lying in the center of -these three larger ones. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many fragments are there in total, sir, in your -opinion? - -Dr. GREGORY. I would judge from this view that counting each isolated -fragment there are fully seven or eight, and experience has taught that -when these things are dismantled directly under direct vision that -there very obviously may be more than that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you continue to describe what that X-ray shows with -respect to metallic fragments, if any? - -Dr. GREGORY. Three shadows are identified as representing metallic -fragments. There are other light shadows in this film which are -identified or interpreted as being artifacts. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the basis of distinction between that which is an -artifact and that which is a real shadow of the metallic substance? - -Dr. GREGORY. A real shadow of metallic substance persist and be seen in -other views, other X-ray copies, whereas artifacts which are produced -by irregularities either in the film or film carrier will vary from one -X-ray to another. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is it your view that these other X-ray films led you to -believe that those are, in fact, metallic substances? - -Dr. GREGORY. As a matter of fact, it is the mate to this very film, -the lateral view marked "B", which shows the same three fragments in -essentially the same relationship to the various levels of the forearm -that leads me to believe that these do, in fact, represent metallic -fragments. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe as specifically as you can what those -metallic fragments are by way of size and shape, sir? - -Dr. GREGORY. I would identify these fragments as varying from -five-tenths of a millimeter in diameter to approximately 2 millimeters -in diameter, and each fragment is no more than a half millimeter in -thickness. They would represent in lay terms flakes, flakes of metal. - -Mr. SPECTER. What would your estimate be as to their weight in total? - -Dr. GREGORY. I would estimate that they would be weighed in micrograms -which is very small amount of weight. I don't know how to reduce it to -ordinary equivalents for you. - -It is the kind of weighing that requires a microadjustable scale, which -means that it is something less than the weight of a postage stamp. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all the metallic substances which -you observed either visually or through the X-rays in the Governor's -wrist? - -Dr. GREGORY. These are the three metallic substance items which I saw. - -Now if I may use these to indicate why I view the path as being from -dorsal to volar, from the back of the wrist to the palm side, these -have been shed on the volar side suggesting that contact with this bone -resulted in there being flaked off, as the remainder of the missile -emerged from the volar side leaving the small flakes behind. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are the X-rays helpful in any other way in ascertaining -the point of entry and the point of exit? - -Dr. GREGORY. There is a suggestion to be seen in Exhibit B, the lateral -view, a suggestion of the pathway as seen by distortion of soft -tissues. This has become a bit irregular on the dorsal side. There is -evidence of air in the tissues on this side suggesting that the pathway -was something like this. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when you say indications of air on which side did you -mean by "this side," Doctor? - -Dr. GREGORY. Air distally on the volar side. There is some evidence -of air in the tissue on the volar side too but they are at different -levels and this suggests that they gained access to the tissue plans in -this fashion. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you elaborate on just what do you mean by "this -fashion," indicating the distinctions on the level of the air which -suggest that conclusion to you? - -Dr. GREGORY. Recall that I suggested that the wound of entrance, -certainly the dorsal wound lay some distance, 5 cm. above the wrist -joint, approximately here, that the second wound considered to be the -wound of exit was only 2 cm. above this point, making the pathway an -oblique one. - -Mr. DULLES. Would you show that on your own wrist? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. We have to explain this a little for the record but I think -it would be very useful. - -Dr. GREGORY. I think you will have an opportunity to see the real thing -a little later if the Governor makes his appearance here. - -But the wound of entry I considered to be, although on his right hand, -of course, to be approximately at this point on the wrist, and the -wound of exit here, which is about the right level for my coat sleeve -held at a casual position. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show you made two red marks on your wrist, -which are in the same position as that which you have described -heretofore in technical language. - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had you finished the complete explanation on the indicator -from the air levels which you had mentioned before? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes. The air is a little bit more visible to the dorsal -surface, closer to the skin here, not so close down at the lower -portion, not so much tissue destruction had occurred at the point of -the emergence. - -Mr. SPECTER. Before proceeding to the other factors indicating point -of entry and point of exit, Dr. Gregory, I call your attention to -Commission Exhibit No. 399, which is a bullet and ask you first if you -have had an opportunity to examine that earlier today? - -Dr. GREGORY. I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. What opinion, if any, do you have as to whether that -bullet could have produced the wound on the Governor's right wrist and -remained as intact as it is at the present time? - -Dr. GREGORY. In examining this bullet, I find a small flake has been -either knocked off or removed from the rounded end of the missile. - -(At this point Representative Boggs entered the room.) - -I was told that this was removed for the purpose of analysis. The only -other deformity which I find is at the base of the missile at the -point where it joined the cartridge carrying the powder, I presume, -and this is somewhat flattened and deflected, distorted. There is some -irregularity of the darker metal within which I presume to represent -lead. - -The only way that this missile could have produced this wound in -my view, was to have entered the wrist backward. Now, this is not -inconsistent with one of the characteristics known for missiles which -is to tumble. All missiles in flight have two motions normally, a -linear motion from the muzzle of the gun to the target, a second motion -which is a spinning motion having to do with maintaining the integrity -of the initial linear direction, but if they strike an object they -may be caused to turn in their path and tumble end over, and if they -do, they tend to produce a greater amount of destruction within the -strike time or the target, and they could possibly, if tumbling in air -upon emergence, tumble into another target backward. That is the only -possible explanation I could offer to correlate this missile with this -particular wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there sufficient metallic substance missing from the -back or rear end of that bullet to account for the metallic substance -which you have described in the Governor's wrist? - -Dr. GREGORY. It is possible but I don't know enough about the structure -of bullets or this one in particular, to know what is a normal -complement of lead or for this particular missile. It is irregular, but -how much it may have lost, I have no idea. - -Mr. DULLES. Would the nature of the entry wound give you any indication -as to whether it entered backward or whether it entered forward? - -Dr. GREGORY. My initial impression was that whatever produced the wound -of the wrist was an irregular object, certainly not smooth nosed as -the business end of this particular bullet is because of two things. -The size of the wound of entrance, and the fact that it is irregular -surfaced permitted it to pick up organic debris, materials, threads, -and carry them into the wound with it. - -Now, you will note that Dr. Shaw earlier in his testimony and in all of -my conversations with him, never did indicate that there was any such -loss of material into the wrist, nor does the back of this coat which -I have examined show that it lost significant amounts of cloth but I -think the tear in this coat sleeve does imply that there were bits of -fabric lost, and I think those were resident in the wrist. I think we -recovered them. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is the back of that bullet characteristic of an irregular -missile so as to cause the wound in the wrist? - -Dr. GREGORY. I would say that the back of this being flat and having -sharp edges is irregular, and would possibly tend to tear tissues more -than does an inclined plane such as this. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would the back of the missile be sufficiently irregular to -have caused the wound of the right wrist, in your opinion? - -Dr. GREGORY. I think it could have; yes. It is possible. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would it be consistent with your observations of the wrist -for that missile to have penetrated and gone through the right wrist? - -Dr. GREGORY. It is possible; yes. It appears to me since the wound of -exit was a small laceration, that much of the energy of the missile -that struck the Governor's wrist was expended in breaking the bone -reducing its velocity sufficient so that while it could make an -emergence through the underlying soft tissues on his wrist, it did not -do great damage to them. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any indication from the extent of the damage -to the wrist whether the bullet was pristine, that is: was the wrist -struck first in flight or whether there had been some reduction in the -velocity of the missile prior to striking the wrist? - -Dr. GREGORY. I would offer this opinion about a high velocity rifle -bullet striking a forearm. - -Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to inject factors which we have not put on the -record although it has been brought to your attention previously: -Assume this is a 6.5-millimeter missile which was shot from a rifle -having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with -a distance of approximately 160 to 200 feet between the weapon and the -victim; and answer the prior question, if you would, Dr. Gregory, with -those factors in mind? - -Dr. GREGORY. I would fully expect the first object struck by that -missile to be very badly damaged, and especially if it were a rigid -bone such as the wrist bone is, to literally blow it apart. I have had -some experience with rifle wound injuries of the forearm produced by -this type of missile, and the last two which I attended myself have -culminated in amputation of the limb because of the extensive damage -produced by the missile as it passed through the arm. - -Considerably more than was evidenced in the Governor's case either by -examination of the limb itself or an examination of these X-rays. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the experience you had which you experienced -which resulted in amputations, what was the range between the weapon -and the victim's limb, if you know? - -Dr. GREGORY. The range in those two instances, I concede was -considerably shorter but I cannot give you the specific range. By short -I mean perhaps no more than 15 or 20 yards at the most. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would the difference between the 15 or 20 yards and the -160 to 250 feet make any difference in your opinion, though, as to the -damage which would be inflicted on the wrist had that bullet struck it -as the first point of impact? - -Dr. GREGORY. No, sir; I don't think it would have made that much -difference. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the color was of the fragments in the -wrist of the Governor, Dr. Gregory? - -Dr. GREGORY. As I recall them they were lead colored, silvery, of that -color. I did not recall them as being either brass or copper. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other X-rays of the Governor's wrist which -would aid the Commission in its understanding of the injuries to the -wrist? - -Dr. GREGORY. Only to indicate that there were two fragments of metal -retrieved in the course of dealing with this wound surgically. - -For the subsequent X-rays of the same area, after the initial surgery -indicate that those fragments are no longer there. - -And as I stated, I thought I had retrieved two of them. The major one -or ones now being missing. The small one related to the bone or most -closely related to the bone, and I will put back up here---- - -Mr. SPECTER. On the new X-rays which you put up, would you identify -them first by indicating the date the X-ray was taken? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes; the date of the X-ray is the same, November 22, -1963, and they may be identified as Exhibit "C" anteroposterior view -postoperative, which is this one. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did they bear the same numbers, Dr. Gregory? - -Dr. GREGORY. They will bear the same numbers; yes. - -Mr. DULLES. I think you had better get them marked. - -We haven't got them marked yet "A," "B," and "C." - -Representative BOGGS. Postoperative, these are after the operation? - -Dr. GREGORY. These two. This one was made before the wound was dealt -with. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which one? - -Dr. GREGORY. "A" is the one made before the wound was dealt with -surgically. - -Senator COOPER. Could you mark it 4 "A," "B," "C," and "D," Doctor? - -Mr. McCLOY. Is that "B," we have had another "B" here, you know? - -Dr. GREGORY. This is "C." "A" and "C" are comparable X-rays, one made -before and one made after the operation was carried out. - -Before the operation, you will note a large fragment of metal -visible here, not visible in this one. You will also note a small -satellite fragment not visible here. A second piece of metal visible -preoperatively is still present postoperatively. - -No effort incidentally is made to dissect for these fragments. They -are small, they are proverbial needles in hay stacks, and we know from -experience that small flakes of metal of this kind do not ordinarily -produce difficulty in the future, but that the extensive dissection -required to find them may produce such consequences and so we choose -to leave them inside unless we chance upon them, and on this occasion, -those bits of metal recovered were simply found by chance in the course -of removing necrotized material. - -Other than that the X-rays have nothing more to offer so far as the -wrist is concerned. - -Mr. SPECTER. May we then reserve 692 for "C" and 693 for "D"? - -Dr. GREGORY. I will put the other marks on these. - -Senator COOPER. So ordered. - -Dr. GREGORY. For your convenience. - -Mr. DULLES. Was the wound of exit in the wrist also jagged like the -wound of entry or was there, what differences were there between the -wound of entry and the wound of exit? - -Dr. GREGORY. The wound of exit was disposed transversely across the -wrist exactly as I have it marked here. It was in the nature of a small -laceration, perhaps a centimeter and a half in length, about a half an -inch long, and it lay in the skin creases so that as you examined the -wrist casually it was a very innocent looking thing indeed, and it was -not until it was probed that its true nature in connection with the -remainder of the wound was evident. - -Senator RUSSELL. When did you first see this bullet, Doctor, the one -you have just described in your testimony? - -Dr. GREGORY. This bullet? - -Senator RUSSELL. Yes. - -Dr. GREGORY. This morning, sir. - -Senator RUSSELL. You had never seen it until this morning? - -Dr. GREGORY. I had never seen it before this time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, what was then the relative size of the wounds -on the back and front side of the wrist itself? - -Dr. GREGORY. As I recall them, the wound dimensions would be so far -as the wound on the back of the wrist is concerned about a half a -centimeter by two and a half centimeters in length. It was rather -linear in nature. The upper end of it having apparently lost some -tissue was gapping more than the lower portion of it. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about on the volar or front side of the wrist? - -Dr. GREGORY. The volar surface or palmar surface had a wound disclosed -transversely about a half centimeter in length and about 2 centimeters -above the flexion crease to the wrist. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then the wound on the dorsal or back side of the wrist was -a little larger than the wound on the volar or palm side of the wrist? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes; it was. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is that characteristic in terms of entry and exit -wounds? - -Dr. GREGORY. It is not at all characteristic of the entry wound of a -pristine missile which tends to make a small wound of entrance and -larger wound of exit. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is it, however, characteristic of a missile which has had -its velocity substantially decreased? - -Dr. GREGORY. I don't think that the exchange in the velocity will alter -the nature of the wound of entrance or exit excepting that if the -velocity is low enough the missile may simply manage to emerge or may -not emerge at all on the far side of the limb which has been struck. - -Mr. DULLES. Would this be consistent with a tumbling bullet or a bullet -that had already tumbled and therefore entered back side too? - -Dr. GREGORY. The wound of entrance is characteristic in my view of an -irregular missile in this case, an irregular missile which has tipped -itself off as being irregular by the nature of itself. - -Mr. DULLES. What do you mean by irregular? - -Dr. GREGORY. I mean one that has been distorted. It is in some way -angular, it has edges or sharp edges or something of this sort. It -is not rounded or pointed in the fashion of an ordinary missile. The -irregularity of it also, I submit, tends to pick up organic material -and carry it into the limb, and this is a very significant takeoff, in -my opinion. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the characteristics on the -Governor's wrist which indicate either the point of entry or the point -of exit? - -Dr. GREGORY. There is one additional piece of information that is of -pertinence but I don't know how effectively it can be applied to the -nature of the missile. That is the fact that dorsal branch of the -radial nerve, a sensory nerve in this immediate vicinity was partially -transected together with one tendon leading to the thumb, which was -totally transected. - -This could have been produced by a missile entering in the ordinary -fashion, undisturbed, undistorted. But again it is more in keeping with -an irregular surface which would tend to catch and tear a structure -rather than push it aside. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would that then also indicate the wound of entrance where -that striking took place? - -Dr. GREGORY. I believe it is more in keeping with it, yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. As to the thigh wound, what, if anything, did you observe -as to a wound on the thigh, Dr. Gregory? - -Dr. GREGORY. I was apprised that the Governor had a wound of the thigh, -and I did examine it immediately the limb was available for it after -Dr. Shaw had completed the surgery. - -The wound was located on the inner aspect of the thigh, a little to -the front surface about a third of the way up from the knee. The wound -appeared to me to be rounded, almost a puncture type of wound in -dimension about equal to a pencil eraser, about 6 mm. - -I suspected that there might be a missile buried here and so an X-ray -was obtained of that limb, and---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you brought the X-ray with you? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. On what date was that X-ray taken? - -Dr. GREGORY. This X-ray is marked as having been taken on November 22, -1963. It indicates that it was made of the left thigh, and it belongs -to John Connally, John G. Connally. - -Mr. SPECTER. That says "G" instead of "C"? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes. It appears to me to be a "G." The number again is -219-922. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that the same number as the other X-rays bear? - -Dr. GREGORY. I believe it is, yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. May we reserve then Commission Exhibit No. 694 for that -X-ray? - -Senator COOPER. It may be so done. - -Dr. GREGORY. There are a series of these films. Would you like them -marked subsequently "E", "F," and "G"? - -Mr. SPECTER. Insofar as you feel they are helpful in characterizing the -wounds, do mark them in that way. - -Dr. GREGORY. All right. - -This I understand is Exhibit E, then and it is a single X-ray made on -the anterior posterial view of Mr. Connally's thigh. The only thing -found is a very small fleck of metal marked with an arrow here. It is -that small, and almost likely to be overlooked. This was not consonant -with the kind of wound on the medial aspect of his thigh. - -Our next natural assumption was that that missile having escaped from -the thigh had escaped the confines of this X-ray and lay somewhere -else. So that additional X-rays were made of the same date and I -submit two additional X-rays identified again as belonging to John G. -Connally, the left lower extremity, November 22, 1963, and these two -are numbered 218-922, and they are an anterial posterior view which I -will mark "F," and a lateral view which I will mark "G." - -Mr. SPECTER. May we reserve 695 for "F," and 696 for "G"? - -Senator COOPER. So ordered. - -Dr. GREGORY. Careful examination of this set of X-rays illustrated -or demonstrates, I should say, a number of artificial lines, this is -one and there is one. These lines I think represent rather hurried -development of these films for they were taken under emergency -conditions. They were intended simply to let us know if there was -another missile in the Governor's limb where it might be located. - -The only missile turned up is the same one seen in the original film -which lies directly opposite the area indicated as the site of the -missile wound or the wound in the thigh, but a fragment of metal, -again microscopic measuring about five-tenths of a millimeter by 2 -millimeters, lies just beneath the skin, about a half inch on the -medial aspect of the thigh. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the weight of that metallic -fragment? - -Dr. GREGORY. This again would be in micrograms, postage stamp weight -thereabouts, not much more than that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could that fragment, in your opinion, have caused the -wound which you observed in the Governor's left thigh? - -Dr. GREGORY. I do not believe it could have. The nature of the wound in -the left thigh was such that so small a fragment as this would not have -produced it and still have gone no further into the soft tissues than -it did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would the wound that you observed in the soft tissue of -the left thigh be consistent with having been made by a bullet such as -that identified as Commission Exhibit 399? - -Dr. GREGORY. I think again that bullet, Exhibit 399, could very well -have struck the thigh in a reverse fashion and have shed a bit of its -lead core into the fascia immediately beneath the skin, yet never have -penetrated the thigh sufficiently so that it eventually was dislodged -and was found in the clothing. - -I would like to add to that we were disconcerted by not finding a -missile at all. Here was our patient with three discernible wounds, -and no missile within him of sufficient magnitude to account for them, -and we suggested that someone ought to search his belongings and other -areas where he had been to see if it could be identified or found, -rather. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had the missile gone through his wrist in reverse, would -it likely have continued in that same course until it reached his -thigh, in your opinion? - -Dr. GREGORY. The missile that struck his wrist had sufficient energy -left after it passed through the radius to emerge from the soft tissues -on the under surface of the skin. It could have had enough to partially -enter his thigh, but not completely. - -Mr. SPECTER. In the way which his thigh was wounded? - -Dr. GREGORY. I believe so; yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do, Dr. Gregory, with the missile fragments -which you removed from his wrists? - -Dr. GREGORY. Those were turned over to the operating room nurse in -attendance with instructions that they should be presented to the -appropriate authorities present, probably a member of the Texas -Rangers, but that is as far as I went with it myself. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a part of a document heretofore identified -as Commission Exhibit 392, a two-page report which bears your name on -the second page, and I ask you if this is the report you made of the -operation on Governor Connally? - -Dr. GREGORY. It appears to be the same; yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are the facts set forth therein true and correct? - -Dr. GREGORY. In essence they are true and correct; yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, does that report show the name of the nurse -to whom you turned over the metallic fragments? - -Dr. GREGORY. There are two nurses who are identified on this page. One -is the scrub nurse, Miss Rutherford, and the second is the circulating -nurse, Mrs. Schrader. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is one or the other the nurse to whom you turned over -the metallic fragments? - -Dr. GREGORY. I do not remember precisely to whom I handed them. I do -not know. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a document marked Commission Exhibit No. -679, which Dr. Shaw used to identify the wounds on the Governor's back, -and I ask you to note whether these documents accurately depict the -place and the identity of the entry and exit wounds. - -Dr. GREGORY. They do not in that, though the location of the wounds -on the forearm is correct, and the dimensions, it is my opinion that -entrance and exit terms have been reversed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you delete the inaccurate statement and insert the -accurate statement with your initials by the side of the changes, -please? - -Will you now describe the operative procedures---- - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question that relates, I think, to your -question. Assuming that the wrist wound and the thigh wound were caused -by the same bullet, would you agree that the approximate trajectory is -as indicated in this chart where Dr. Shaw has drawn a trajectory that -he assumed taking into account three bullets instead of two? I am only -asking you about the two wounds, namely the wrist and the thigh. - -Dr. GREGORY. It would strike me, sir, that the trajectory to the wrist -and the subsequent wound of the thigh could be lined up easily in a -sitting position. - -Now, those two could probably be lined up with a trajectory of the -wound in the chest as well, but this would require a more precise -positioning of the individual. - -Mr. DULLES. But do you agree in general, taking the two wounds with -which you are particularly familiar, that that would have been the -trajectory as between the wrist and the thigh as drawn on that chart? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes, essentially so; yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. For the record, how was that chart identified. Doctor? - -Dr. GREGORY. This is identified as Commission Exhibit 689. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly the operative procedures which -you performed on the Governor, please? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes. The wound on the dorsum of the Governor's wrist -was treated by debridement, which means to remove by sharp surgical -excision all contaminated tissues and those which are presumed to -have been rendered nonviable by force. This meant removing a certain -amount of skin, subcutaneous tissue, fat, and all of the particles of -clothing, threads of cloth, which we could identify; and, incidentally, -a bit of metal or two. - -That wound was subsequently left open; in other words, we did not -suture it or sew it together. This is done in deference to potential -infection which we know often to be associated with retained organic -material such as cloth. - -The wound on the volar surface or the palmar side of his wrist was -enlarged. The purpose in enlarging it was an uncertainty as to the -condition of the major nerves in the volar side of the wrist, and so -these nerves were identified and explored and found to be intact, as -were adjacent tendons. So that that wound was then sutured, closed. - -After this, the fracture was manipulated into a hopefully respectable -position of the fragments, and a cast was applied, and some traction, -using rubber bands, was applied to the finger and the thumb in order -to better hold the fracture fragments in their reduced or repositioned -state. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, could all of the rounds which were inflicted -on the Governor, that is, those described by Dr. Shaw, and those which -you have described during your testimony, have been inflicted from -one missile if that missile were a 6.5 millimeter bullet fired from -a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per -second at a distance of approximately 160 to 250 feet, if you assumed a -trajectory with an angle of decline approximately 45 degrees? - -Dr. GREGORY. I believe that the three wounds could have occurred from a -single missile under these specifications. - -Mr. SPECTER. Assume, if you will, another set of hypothetical -circumstances: That the 6.5 millimeter bullet traveling at the same -muzzle velocity, to wit, 2,000 feet per second, at approximately 165 -feet between the weapon and the victim, struck the President in the -back of the neck passing through the large strap muscles, going through -a fascia channel, missing the pleural cavity, striking no bones and -emerging from the lower anterior third of the neck, after striking the -trachea. Could such a projectile have then passed into the Governor's -back and inflicted all three or all of the wounds which have been -described here today? - -Dr. GREGORY. I believe one would have to concede the possibility, but I -believe firmly that the probability is much diminished. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why do you say that, sir? - -Dr. GREGORY. I think that to pass through the soft tissues of the -President would certainly have decelerated the missile to some extent. -Having then struck the Governor and shattered a rib, it is further -decelerated, yet it has presumably retained sufficient energy to smash -a radius. - -Moreover, it escaped the forearm to penetrate at least the skin and -fascia of the thigh, and I am not persuaded that this is very probable. -I would have to yield to possibility. I am sure that those who deal -with ballistics can do better for you than I can in this regard. - -Mr. SPECTER. What would your assessment of the likelihood be for a -bullet under those hypothetical circumstances to have passed through -the neck of the President and to have passed through only the chest of -the Governor without having gone through either the wrist or into the -thigh? - -Dr. GREGORY. I think that is a much more plausible possibility or -probability. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about the likelihood of passing through the President -and through the Governor's chest, but missing his wrist and passing -into his thigh? - -Dr. GREGORY. That, too, is plausible, I believe. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other circumstances of this event which have -been related to you, including the striking of the President's head by -a third bullet, which would account in any way, under any possibility, -in your view, for the fracture of the right wrist which was apparently -caused by a missile? - -Dr. GREGORY. May I refer to this morning's discussions? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please do. - -Dr. GREGORY. This morning I was shown two additional missiles or -portions of missiles which are rather grossly distorted. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let me make those a part of the record here, and ask -if those are the missiles which have heretofore been identified as -Commission Exhibit 568 and Commission Exhibit 570. - -Dr. GREGORY. These items represent distorted bits of a missile, a -jacket in one case, and part of a jacket and a lead core in the other. - -These are missiles having the characteristics which I mentioned -earlier, which tend to carry organic debris into wounds and tend to -create irregular wounds of entry. One of these, it seems to me, could -conceivably have produced the injury which the Governor incurred in his -wrist. - -Mr. DULLES. In his wrist? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. And in his thigh? - -Dr. GREGORY. I don't know about that, sir. It is possible. But the -rather remarkably round nature of the wound in the thigh leads me to -believe that it was produced by something like the butt end of an -intact missile. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you an exhibit heretofore identified as -Commission Exhibit 388, which depicts the artist's drawing of the -passage of a bullet through the President's head, and I ask you, first -of all, if you have had an opportunity to observe that prior to this -moment? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes. I saw this illustration this morning. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, if you assume that the trajectory through the -President's head was represented by the path of a 6.5-mm. bullet which -fragmented upon striking the skull, both the rear and again the top, is -it possible that a fragment coming at the rate of 2,000 feet per second -from the distance of approximately 160 to 230 feet, could have produced -a fragment which then proceeded to strike the Governor's wrist and -inflict the damage which you have heretofore described? - -Dr. GREGORY. I think it is plausible that the bullet, having struck -the President's head, may have broken into more than one fragment. I -think you apprised me of the fact that it did, in fact, disperse into -a number of fragments, and they took tangential directions from the -original path apparently. - -Mr. SPECTER. Assuming the fact that the autopsy surgeon presented -for the record a statement that the fragments moved forward into the -vicinity of the President's right eye, as the diagram shows, that there -were approximately 40 star-like fragments running on a line through the -head on the trajectory, and that there was substantial fragmentation of -the bullet as it passed through the head, what is your view about that? - -Dr. GREGORY. I think it is possible that a fragment from that -particular missile may have escaped and struck the Governor's right arm. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe the slides and -films commonly referred to as the Zapruder film this morning? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I saw those this morning. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did they shed any light on the conclusions--as to your -conclusions with respect to the wounds of the Governor and what you -observed in the treatment of the Governor? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes, to this extent. It seemed to me in frames marked 234, -235, and 236, Governor Connally was in a position such that a single -missile entered his back, could have passed through his chest, through -his right forearm, and struck his thigh. That is a possibility. - -I looked at the film very carefully to see if I could relate the -position of Governor Connally's right arm to the movement when the -missile struck the President's head, presumably the third missile, and -I think that the record will show that those are obscured to a degree -that the Governor's right arm cannot be seen. In the Governor's own -words, he did not realize his right arm had been injured, and he has no -idea when it was struck. This is historical fact to us at the time of -the initial interview with him. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one question? If a bullet had merely -struck the Governor's arm without previously having struck anything -else, is it conceivable that impediment of the bone that it hit there -would be consistent with merely a flesh wound on the thigh? Do you -follow me? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I follow you. I would doubt it on the basis of the -kind of wound that the Governor has. Now the kind of wound in the -Governor's right forearm is the kind that indicates there was not an -excessive amount of energy expended there, which means either that the -missile producing it had dissipated much of its energy, either that or -there was an impediment to it someplace else along the way. - -It is simply that there was not enough energy loss there, and one would -expect a soft tissue injury beyond that point to be of considerably -greater magnitude. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, did I take your deposition back on March 23, -1964, at Parkland Hospital? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes; you did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity to review that deposition -prior to today? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I have looked it over. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Dr. Gregory, that you think -would be helpful to the Commission in any way? - -Dr. GREGORY. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. DULLES. Are you in agreement with the deposition as given? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes. I don't think there are any--there is any need -to change any of the essence of the deposition. There are a few -typographical errors and word changes one might make, but the essence -is essentially as I gave it. - -Mr. SPECTER. I have no further questions, sir. - -Senator COOPER. I would just ask this question. In your long experience -of treating wounds, you said some 500 wounds caused by bullets, have -you acquired, through that, knowledge of ballistics and characteristics -of bullets? - -Dr. GREGORY. Within a very limited sphere. - -Senator COOPER. I know your testimony indicates that. - -Dr. GREGORY. I have been concerned with the behavior of missiles in -contact with tissues, but I am not very knowledgeable about the design -of a missile nor how many grains of powder there are behind it. My -concern was with the dissipation of the energy which it carries and the -havoc that it wreaks when it goes off. - -Senator COOPER. You derived that knowledge from your actual study of -wounds and their treatment? - -Dr. GREGORY. Study of wounds together with what I have read from the -Army proving grounds, various centers, for exploring this kind of -thing. I don't own a gun myself. - -Mr. McCLOY. You are from Texas and you do not own a gun? - -Dr. GREGORY. Well, sir, I went from Indiana to Texas. My father gave me -a .410 shotgun, but he took it away from me shortly after he gave it to -me. - -The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, thank you very much. - -Dr. GREGORY. Thank you very much, sir, Mr. Chief Justice. - -(A short recess was taken.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Governor, the Commission will come to order, please. - - -TESTIMONY OF GOV. JOHN BOWDEN CONNALLY, JR. - -Governor, this Commission has met today for the purpose of taking the -testimony of you and Mrs. Connally concerning the sad affair that you -were part of. If you will raise your right hand, please, and be sworn. -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Governor CONNALLY. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated, Governor. Mr. Specter will conduct the -examination. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? - -Governor CONNALLY. John Bowden Connally. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your official position with the State of Texas, -sir? - -Governor CONNALLY. I am now Governor of the State of Texas. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to be in the automobile which -carried President John F. Kennedy through Dallas, Tex., back on -November 22, 1963. - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly, please, the circumstances -leading up to the President's planning a trip to Texas in November of -last year? - -Governor CONNALLY. You want to go back to--how far back do you want to -go, a few days immediately prior to the trip or a month before, or all -of the circumstances surrounding it? - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, just a very brief picture leading up to the trip, -Governor, starting with whatever point you think would be most -appropriate to give some outline of the origin of the trip. - -Governor CONNALLY. Well, it had been thought that he should come to -Texas for a period of many months, as a matter of fact. There was some -thought given to it during 1962. The trip kept being delayed. - -Finally in the fall of 1963 it was decided that he definitely should -come, or should come in the fall of last year as opposed to waiting -until this year, when his appearance might have more political -overtones. - -So I came up, I have forgotten the exact date, around the middle of -October and talked to him about it, discussed the details, asked him -what he would like to do. - -He said he would like to do whatever he could do that was agreeable -with me; it was agreeable with me that he more or less trust me to -plan the trip for him, to tell him where he would like to go. About -that time some thought was being given to having four fundraising -dinners. His attitude on that was he wouldn't prefer that. He felt -that the appearances would not be too good, that he would much prefer -to have one if we were going to have any. I told him this was entirely -consistent with my own thoughts. We ought not to have more than one -fundraising dinner. If we did, it ought to be in Austin. If we could do -it, I would like for him to see and get into as many areas of the State -as possible while he was there. - -He, on his own, had made a commitment to go to the dinner for -Congressman Albert Thomas, which was being given the night of the 21st -in Houston, so shortly, really before he got there, and when I say -shortly I would say 2 weeks before he came, the plans were altered a -little bit in that he landed originally in San Antonio in the afternoon -about 1:30 of the afternoon of the 21st. From there we went to Houston, -attended the Thomas dinner that night at about 8 o'clock. - -After that we flew to Fort Worth, spent the night at the Texas Hotel, -had a breakfast there the next morning, and left about 10 o'clock, -10:30, for the flight over to Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what vehicle did you fly from Fort Worth to Dallas? - -Governor CONNALLY. In Air Force 1. - -Mr. SPECTER. And approximately what time did you arrive at Love Field, -Tex. - -Governor CONNALLY. I would say about 11:50, 12:00, shortly before noon. -I believe the luncheon was planned for 12:30, and we were running on -schedule. I believe it was 11:50. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for us briefly the ceremonies at Love -Field on the arrival of the President? - -Governor CONNALLY. Well, we, as usual, the President had a receiving -line there. I conducted Mrs. Kennedy through the receiving line and -introduced her to about 15 or 17 people who were there as an official -welcoming committee. - -The President came right behind, was introduced to them, and then he -and Mrs. Kennedy both went over to the railing and spoke to a number -of people who were standing around, who visited for 5 or 10 minutes, -and then we got into the car as we had customarily done at each of the -stops, and Mrs. Connally and I got on the jump seats, and with the -President and Mrs. Kennedy on the back seat, and took off for the long -motorcade downtown. - -Mr. SPECTER. I will now hand you a photograph which I have marked -"Commission Exhibit 697," Governor Connally, and ask you if that -accurately depicts the occupants of the car as you were starting that -motorcade trip through Dallas? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes; it does. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identities of the men who are riding in -the front seat of the car? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes. Roy Kellerman is on the right front. He is a -Secret Service agent, and Bill--I can't remember the other's name---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Greer. - -I hand you another photograph here, Governor, marked as "Commission -Exhibit 698," and ask you if that is a picture of the President's -automobile during its ride through the downtown area of Dallas? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I assume it is. This is certainly the -President's automobile, and this is the precise position that each of -us occupied in the ride through Dallas. It was the same position, and -could be a photograph, of any number of places that we went. But I was -seated in the jump seat immediately in front of him, and Mrs. Connally -was seated immediately in front of Mrs. Kennedy in the jump seat, and -Roy Kellerman was immediately in front of me. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, may I move at this time the admission -into evidence of Exhibits 697 and 698? - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. - -(The items marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 697 and 698 were received in -evidence.) - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the relative height of the jump seats, Governor, -with respect to the seat of the President and Mrs. Kennedy immediately -to your rear? - -Governor CONNALLY. They were somewhat lower. The back seat of that -particular Lincoln limousine, which is a specially designed and built -automobile, as you know, for the President of the United States, has an -adjustable back seat. It can be lowered or raised. I would say the back -seat was approximately 6 inches higher than the jump seats on which -Mrs. Connally and I sat. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know for certain whether or not the movable back -seat was elevated at the time? - -Governor CONNALLY. No; I could not be sure of it, although I know -there were--there was a time or two when he did elevate it, and -I think beyond question on most of the ride in San Antonio, Fort -Worth, Houston, and Dallas, it was elevated. For a while--the reason -I know is--I sat on the back seat with him during part of the ride, -particularly in San Antonio, not in Dallas, but in San Antonio. The -wind was blowing, and we were traveling fairly fast, and Mrs. Kennedy -preferred to sit on the jump seat, and I was sitting on the back seat -part of the time, and the seat was elevated, and I think it was on -substantially all the trip. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the portion elevated, that where only the President -sat? - -Governor CONNALLY. No; the entire back seat. - -Mr. SPECTER. Describe in a general way the size and reaction of the -crowd on the motorcade route, if you would, please, Governor? - -Governor CONNALLY. When we got into Dallas, there was quite a large -crowd at the airport to greet their President, I would say several -thousand people. - -Part way downtown, in the thinly populated areas of Dallas, where -we traveled, the crowds were not thick and were somewhat restrained -in their reaction. By restrained, I mean they were not wildly -enthusiastic, but they were grown people. There was a mature crowd as -we went through some of the residential areas. They applauded and they -were obviously very friendly in their conduct. - -But as we, of course, approached downtown, the downtown area of Dallas, -going down the main street, the crowds were tremendous. They were -stacked from the curb and even outside the curb, back against the back -walls. It was a huge crowd. I would estimate there were 250,000 people -that had lined the streets that day as we went down. - -The further you went the more enthusiastic the response was, and the -reception. It was a tremendous reception, to the point where just as -we turned on Houston Street off of Main, and turned on Houston, down -by the courthouse, Mrs. Connally remarked to the President, "Well, Mr. -President, you can't say there aren't some people in Dallas who love -you." And the President replied, "That is very obvious," or words to -that effect. - -So I would say the reception that he got in Dallas was equal to, if -not more, enthusiastic than those he had received in Fort Worth, San -Antonio, and Houston. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other conversations which stand out in your -mind on the portion of the motorcade trip through Dallas itself? - -Governor CONNALLY. No; actually we had more or less desultory -conversation as we rode along. The crowds were thick all the way down -on both sides, and all of us were, particularly the President and Mrs. -Kennedy were, acknowledging the crowds. They would turn frequently, -smiling, waving to the people, and the opportunity for conversation -was limited. So there was no particularly significant conversation or -conversations which took place. It was, as I say, pretty desultory -conversation. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did the automobile stop at any point during this -procession? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes; it did. There were at least two occasions on -which the automobile stopped in Dallas and, perhaps, a third. There was -one little girl, I believe it was, who was carrying a sign saying, "Mr. -President, will you please stop and shake hands with me," or some that -was the import of the sign, and he just told the driver to stop, and -he did stop and shook hands, and, of course, he was immediately mobbed -by a bunch of youngsters, and the Secret Service men from the car -following us had to immediately come up and wedge themselves in between -the crowd and the car to keep them back away from the automobile, and -it was a very short stop. - -At another point along the route, a Sister, a Catholic nun, was there, -obviously from a Catholic school, with a bunch of little children, and -he stopped and spoke to her and to the children; and I think there was -one other stop on the way downtown, but I don't recall the precise -occasion. But I know there were two, but I think there was still -another one. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other events prior to the time of the -shooting itself which stand out in your mind on the motorcade trip -through Dallas? - -Governor CONNALLY. No; not that have any particular significance. - -Mr. SPECTER. As to the comment which Mrs. Connally had made to -President Kennedy which you just described, where on the motor trip was -that comment made, if you recall? - -Governor CONNALLY. This was just before we turned on Elm Street, after -we turned off of Main. - -Mr. SPECTER. Onto Houston? - -Governor CONNALLY. Onto Houston, right by the courthouse before we -turned left onto Elm Street, almost at the end of the motorcade, and -almost, I would say, perhaps a minute before the fatal shooting. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the crowd at that juncture of -the motorcade, sir? - -Governor CONNALLY. At that particular juncture, when she made this -remark, the crowd was still very thick and very enthusiastic. It began -to thin immediately after we turned onto Elm Street. We could look -ahead and see that the crowd was beginning to thin along the banks, -just east, I guess of the overpass. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any difficulty in hearing such a conversational -comment? - -Governor CONNALLY. No, no; we could talk without any, and hear very -clearly, without any difficulty, without any particular strain. We -didn't do it again because in trying to carry on a conversation it -would be apparent to those who were the spectators on the sidewalk, -and we didn't want to leave the impression we were not interested in -them, and so we just didn't carry on a conversation, but we could do so -without any trouble. - -Mr. SPECTER. As the automobile turned left onto Elm from Houston, what -did occur there, Governor? - -Governor CONNALLY. We had--we had gone, I guess, 150 feet, maybe -200 feet, I don't recall how far it was, heading down to get on the -freeway, the Stemmons Freeway, to go out to the hall where we were -going to have lunch and, as I say, the crowds had begun to thin, and -we could--I was anticipating that we were going to be at the hall in -approximately 5 minutes from the time we turned on Elm Street. - -We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a -shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. -I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come -from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right -shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, -but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was -interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified -it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed my -mind was that this is an assassination attempt. - -So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my -left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. -I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little -bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in -the back. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the best estimate that you have as to the time -span between the sound of the first shot and the feeling of someone -hitting you in the back which you just described? - -Governor CONNALLY. A very, very brief span of time. Again my trend of -thought just happened to be, I suppose along this line, I immediately -thought that this--that I had been shot. I knew it when I just looked -down and I was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed -through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or -more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle. These -were just thoughts that went through my mind because of the rapidity -of these two, of the first shot plus the blow that I took, and I knew -I had been hit, and I immediately assumed, because of the amount of -blood, and, in fact, that it had obviously passed through my chest, -that I had probably been fatally hit. - -So I merely doubled up, and then turned to my right again and began -to--I just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap. She -was sitting, of course, on the jump seat, so I reclined with my head -in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, -of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. -I heard it hit him. I heard the shot hit something, and I assumed -again--it never entered my mind that it ever hit anybody but the -President. I heard it hit. It was a very loud noise, just that audible, -very clear. - -Immediately I could see on my clothes, my clothing, I could see on -the interior of the car which, as I recall, was a pale blue, brain -tissue, which I immediately recognized, and I recall very well, on my -trousers there was one chunk of brain tissue as big as almost my thumb, -thumbnail, and again I did not see the President at any time either -after the first, second, or third shots, but I assumed always that it -was he who was hit and no one else. - -I immediately, when I was hit, I said, "Oh, no, no, no." And then I -said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." Nellie, when she pulled -me over into her lap---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Nellie is Mrs. Connally? - -Governor CONNALLY. Mrs. Connally. When she pulled me over into her lap, -she could tell I was still breathing and moving, and she said, "Don't -worry. Be quiet. You are going to be all right." She just kept telling -me I was going to be all right. - -After the third shot, and I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, "Bill, -get out of line." And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving -a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said, "Get -us to a hospital quick." I assumed he was saying this to the patrolman, -the motorcycle police who were leading us. - -At about that time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of the -line, and I lost consciousness and didn't regain consciousness until we -got to the hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, I hand you a photograph, marked -Commission Exhibit 699, which is an overhead shot of Dealey Plaza -depicting the intersection of Houston and Elm, and ask you if you would -take a look at that photograph and mark for us, if you would, with -one of the red pencils at your right, the position of the President's -automobile as nearly as you can where it was at the time the shooting -first started. - -Governor CONNALLY. I would say it would be about where this truck is -here. It looks like a truck. I would say about in that neighborhood. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you place your initials, Governor, by the mark that -you made there? - -Governor, you have described hearing a first shot and a third shot. Did -you hear a second shot? - -Governor CONNALLY. No; I did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the timespan between -the first shot which you heard and the shot which you heretofore -characterized as the third shot? - -Governor CONNALLY. It was a very brief span of time; oh, I would have -to say a matter of seconds. I don't know. 10, 12 seconds. It was -extremely rapid, so much so that again I thought that whoever was -firing must be firing with an automatic rifle because of the rapidity -of the shots; a very short period of time. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was your impression then as to the source of the shot? - -Governor CONNALLY. From back over my right shoulder which, again, was -where immediately when I heard the first shot I identified the sound as -coming back over my right shoulder. - -Mr. SPECTER. At an elevation? - -Governor CONNALLY. At an elevation. I would have guessed at an -elevation. - -Mr. SPECTER. Excuse me. - -Governor CONNALLY. Well, that is all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an impression as to the source of the third -shot? - -Governor CONNALLY. The same. I would say the same. - -Mr. SPECTER. How fast was the President's automobile proceeding at that -time? - -Governor CONNALLY. I would guess between 20 and 22 miles an hour, and -it is a guess because I didn't look at the speedometer, but I would say -in that range. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did President Kennedy make any statement during the time -of the shooting or immediately prior thereto? - -Governor CONNALLY. He never uttered a sound at all that I heard. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy state anything at that time? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I have to--I would say it was after the third -shot when she said, "They have killed my husband." - -Mr. SPECTER. Did she say anything more? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes; she said, I heard her say one time, "I have got -his brains in my hand." - -Mr. SPECTER. Did that constitute everything that she said at that time? - -Governor CONNALLY. That is all I heard her say. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally say anything further at this time? - -Governor CONNALLY. All she said to me was, after I was hit when she -pulled me over in her lap, she said, "Be quiet, you are going to be -all right. Be still, you are going to be all right." She just kept -repeating that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was anything further stated by Special Agent Roy Kellerman -other than that which you have already testified about? - -Governor CONNALLY. No; those are the only two remarks that I heard him -make. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was any statement made by Special Agent William Greer at -or about the time of the shooting? - -Governor CONNALLY. No; I did not hear Bill say anything. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reaction by President Kennedy after -the shooting? - -Governor CONNALLY. No; I did not see him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reaction by Mrs. Kennedy after the -shooting? - -Governor CONNALLY. I did not see her. This almost sounds incredible, I -am sure, since we were in the car with them. But again I will repeat -very briefly when what I believe to be the shot first occurred, I -turned to my right, which was away from both of them, of course, and -looked out and could see neither, and then as I was turning to look -into the back seat where I would have seen both of them, I was hit, so -I never completed the turn at all, and I never saw either one of them -after the firing started, and, of course, as I have testified, then -Mrs. Connally pulled me over into her lap and I was facing forward with -my head slightly turned up to where I could see the driver and Roy -Kellerman on his right, but I could not see into the back seat, so I -didn't see either one of them. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you turned to your right, Governor Connally, -immediately after you heard the first shot, what did you see on that -occasion? - -Governor CONNALLY. Nothing of any significance except just people out -on the grass slope. I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, -just saw men, women, and children. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any estimate as to the distance which the -President's automobile traveled during the shooting? - -Governor CONNALLY. No; I hadn't thought about it, but I would suppose -in 10 to 12 seconds, I suppose you travel a couple of hundred feet. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullet or fragments of bullet strike -the windshield? - -Governor CONNALLY. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullet or fragments of bullet strike -the metal chrome? - -Governor CONNALLY. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you experience any sensation of being struck any place -other than that which you have described on your chest? - -Governor CONNALLY. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. What other wounds, if any, did you sustain? - -Governor CONNALLY. A fractured wrist and a wound in the thigh, just -above the knee. - -Mr. SPECTER. What thigh? - -Governor CONNALLY. Left thigh; just above the knee. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where on the wrist were you injured, sir? - -Governor CONNALLY. I don't know how you describe it. - -Mr. SPECTER. About how many inches up from the wrist joint? - -Governor CONNALLY. I would say an inch above the wrist bone, but on -the inner bone of the wrist where the bullet went in here and came out -almost in the center of the wrist on the underside. - -Mr. SPECTER. About an inch from the base of the palm? - -Governor CONNALLY. About an inch from the base of the palm, a little -less than an inch, three-quarters of an inch. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you conscious of receiving that wound on the wrist at -the time you sustained it? - -Governor CONNALLY. No, sir; I was not. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you first know you were wounded in the right -wrist? - -Governor CONNALLY. When I came to in the hospital on Saturday, the next -morning, and I looked up and my arm was tied up in a hospital bed, and -I said, "What is wrong with my arm?" And they told me then that I had a -shattered wrist, and that is when I also found out I had a wound in the -thigh. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the nature of the wound in the thigh? - -Governor CONNALLY. Well, just a raw, open wound, looked like a fairly -deep penetration. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 2 inches? - -Governor CONNALLY. No; I would say about an inch, an inch and a quarter -long is all; fairly wide, I would say a quarter of an inch wide, maybe -more, a third of an inch wide, and about an inch and a quarter, an inch -and a half long. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you conscious that you had been wounded on the left -thigh at the time it occurred? - -Governor CONNALLY. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you first notice that in the hospital on the following -day also? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. In your view, which bullet caused the injury to your -chest, Governor Connally? - -Governor CONNALLY. The second one. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your reason for that conclusion, sir? - -Governor CONNALLY. Well, in my judgment, it just couldn't conceivably -have been the first one because I heard the sound of the shot. In -the first place, I don't know anything about the velocity of this -particular bullet, but any rifle has a velocity that exceeds the speed -of sound, and when I heard the sound of that first shot, that bullet -had already reached where I was, or it had reached that far, and after -I heard that shot. I had the time to turn to my right, and start to -turn to my left before I felt anything. - -It is not conceivable to me that I could have been hit by the first -bullet, and then I felt the blow from something which was obviously -a bullet, which I assumed was a bullet, and I never heard the second -shot, didn't hear it. I didn't hear but two shots. I think I heard the -first shot and the third shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any idea as to why you did not hear the second -shot? - -Governor CONNALLY. Well, first, again I assume the bullet was traveling -faster than the sound. I was hit by the bullet prior to the time the -sound reached me, and I was in either a state of shock or the impact -was such that the sound didn't even register on me, but I was never -conscious of hearing the second shot at all. - -Obviously, at least the major wound that I took in the shoulder through -the chest couldn't have been anything but the second shot. Obviously, -it couldn't have been the third, because when the third shot was fired -I was in a reclining position, and heard it, saw it and the effects of -it, rather--I didn't see it, I saw the effects of it--so it obviously -could not have been the third, and couldn't have been the first, in my -judgment. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the nature of the exit wound on the front side of -your chest, Governor? - -Governor CONNALLY. I would say, if the Committee would be interested, I -would just as soon you look at it. Is there any objection to any of you -looking at it? - -The CHAIRMAN. No. - -Governor CONNALLY. You can tell yourself. - -I would say, to describe it for the record, however, that it, the -bullet, went in my back just below the right shoulder blade, at just -about the point that the right arm joins the shoulder, right in that -groove, and exited about 2 inches toward the center of the body from -the right nipple of my chest. I can identify these for you. - -The bullet went in here--see if I properly describe that--about the -juncture of the right arm and the shoulder. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that the Governor has removed his -shirt and we can view the wound on the back which he is pointing toward. - -Governor CONNALLY. The other two are tubes that were inserted in my -back by the doctors. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw is present and he can, perhaps, describe with -identifiable precision where the wounds are. - -Dr. SHAW. There is the wound of the drain that has been specifically -described. It was not as large as the scar indicated because in -cleaning up the ragged edges of the wound, some of the skin was excised -in order to make a cleaner incision. This scar---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the location, Doctor, of that wound on -the Governor's back? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. It is on the right shoulder, I will feel it, just -lateral to the shoulder blade, the edge of which is about 2 centimeters -from the wound, and just above and slightly medial to the crease formed -by the axilla or the armpit, the arm against the chest wall. - -Mr. SPECTER. What other scars are shown there on the Governor's back? - -Dr. SHAW. The other scars are surgically induced. This is the incision -that was made to drain the depth of the subscapular space. - -Mr. SPECTER. And there you are indicating an incision at what location, -please? - -Dr. SHAW. Just at the angle of the shoulder blade. Here is the angle of -the shoulder blade. - -These incisions were never closed by suture. These incisions were left -open and they healed by what we call secondary intention, because -in this case there was what we call a Penrose drain, which is a -soft-rubber drain going up into the depths of the shoulder to allow -any material to drain. This was to prevent infection. The other small -opening was the one in which the tube was placed through the eighth -interspace. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicate its location, please, Doctor, on his back. - -Dr. SHAW. This is lower on the right back in what we refer to as the -posterior axillary line, roughly this line. - -Mr. SPECTER. There you are drawing a vertical, virtually vertical line? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. It is on the right back, but getting close to the -lateral portion of the chest. This also was a stab wound which was -never sutured. There was a rubber drain through this that led to what -we call a water seal bottle to allow for drainage of the inside of the -chest. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating again the second medically inflicted wound. - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; that is right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you now, Doctor, describe the location of the wound -of exit on the Governor's chest, please? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. The wound of exit was beneath and medial to the nipple. -Here was this =V= that I was indicating. It is almost opposite that. -At the time of the wound there was a ragged oval hole here at least -5 centimeters in diameter, but the skin edges were excised, and here -again this scar does not look quite as nice as it does during the more -lateral portion of the surgically induced incision, because this skin -was brought together under a little tension, and there is a little -separation there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the entire scar there, Doctor, for the -record, please? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. The entire surgical incision runs from the anterior -portion of the chest just lateral to the, we call it, the condral arch, -the =V= formed by the condral arch, and then extends laterally below -the nipple, running up, curving up, into the posterior axillary portion -or the posterior lateral wall of the chest. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the total length of the scar, Doctor? - -Dr. SHAW. Twenty centimeters, about. - -Mr. DULLES. Where was the center of the bullet wound itself in that -scar about? - -Dr. SHAW. Here. - -Mr. DULLES. There? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. All of the rest of this incision was necessary to gain -access to the depths of the wound for the debridement, for removing all -of the destroyed tissue because of the passage of the bullet. - -Mr. DULLES. Would you give us in your hand the area of declination from -the entry to the---- - -Dr. SHAW. This way. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you estimate that angle for us, Doctor? - -Dr. SHAW. We are talking about the angle now, of course, with the -horizontal, and I would say--you don't have a caliper there, do you? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Dr. SHAW. I was going to guess somewhere between 25 deg. and 30 deg. - -Mr. DULLES. Sorry to ask these questions. - -Governor CONNALLY. That is fine. I think it is an excellent question. - -Dr. SHAW. Well, this puts it right at 25 deg. - -Mr. SPECTER. That is the angle then of elevation as you are measuring -it? - -Dr. SHAW. Measuring from back to front, it is the elevation of the -posterior wound over the anterior wound. - -The CHAIRMAN. The course being downward back to front? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. - -Governor CONNALLY. Back to front. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. - -Dr. SHAW. At the time of the initial examination, as I described, this -portion of the Governor's chest was mobile, it was moving in and out -because of the softening of the chest, and that was the reason I didn't -want the skin incision to be directly over that, because to get better -healing it is better to have a firm pad of tissue rather than having -the incision directly over the softened area. - -Mr. DULLES. Doctor, would the angle be the same if the Governor were -seated now the way he was in the chair? - -Dr. SHAW. That is a good question. Of course, we don't know exactly -whether he was back or tipped forward. But I don't think there is -going to be much difference. - -Mr. DULLES. Were you seated in about that way, Governor? - -Governor CONNALLY. Mr. Dulles, I would say I was in about this position -when I was hit, with my face approximately looking toward you, 20 deg. off -of center. - -Dr. SHAW. Yes; I got 27 deg. That didn't make much difference. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that reading taken then while the Governor is in a -seated position, Doctor? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes, seated; yes. - -Representative BOGGS. May I ask a question? How would his hand have -been under those circumstances, Doctor, for the bullet to hit his wrist? - -Dr. GREGORY. I think it fits very well, really, remembering at the -other end the trajectory is right here, and there would be no problem -to pose his hands in that fashion, and if you will note, you can see -it best from over here really, because you did see that the point -of entry, and you can visualize his thigh, there is no problem to -visualize the trajectory. - -Mr. DULLES. Would you be naturally holding your hand in that position? - -Dr. GREGORY. It could be any place. - -Governor CONNALLY. It could be anywhere on that line, Mr. Dulles. - -Mr. Chief Justice, you see this is the leg. - -Dr. SHAW. Of course, the wound is much smaller than this. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show the Governor has displayed the left -thigh showing the scar caused by the entry of the missile in the left -thigh. - -Dr. Gregory, will you describe the locale of that? - -Dr. GREGORY. Yes. This scar, excisional scar, is a better term, if I -may just interject that---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Please do. - -Dr. GREGORY. The excisional scar to the Governor's thigh is located at -a point approximately 10 or 12 centimeters above the adductor tubercule -of the femur, placing it at the juncture of the middle and distal third -of his thigh. - -Mr. SPECTER. In lay language, Doctor, about how far is that up from the -knee area? - -Dr. GREGORY. Five inches, 6 inches. - -Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, can you recreate the position that you -were sitting in in the automobile, as best you can recollect, at the -time you think you were struck? - -Governor CONNALLY. I think, having turned to look over my right -shoulder, then revolving to look over my left shoulder, I threw my -right wrist over on my left leg. - -Mr. SPECTER. And in the position you are seated now, with your right -wrist on your left leg, with your little finger being an inch or two -from your knee? - -Governor CONNALLY. From the knee. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, Dr. Gregory, would that be in approximate alignment -which has been characterized on Commission Exhibit---- - -Dr. GREGORY. I think it fits reasonably well; yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. In a moment here I can get that exhibit. - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question in the meantime? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. You turned to the right, as I recall your testimony, -because you heard the sound coming from the right? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. How did you happen to turn then to the left, do you -remember why that was? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; I know exactly. I turned to the right both -to see, because it was an instinctive movement, because that is where -the sound came from, but even more important, I immediately thought it -was a rifleshot, I immediately thought of an assassination attempt, -and I turned to see if I could see the President, to see if he was all -right. Failing to see him over my right shoulder, I turned to look over -my left shoulder. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. - -Governor CONNALLY. Into the back seat, and I never completed that turn. -I got no more than substantially looking forward, a little bit to the -left of forward, when I got hit. - -Representative BOGGS. May I ask one of the doctors a question? What is -the incidence of recovery from a wound of this type? - -Dr. GREGORY. I will defer the answer to Dr. Shaw. From the wrist, -excellent so far as recovery is concerned. Functionally, recovery is -going to be good, too, and Dr. Shaw can take on the other one. - -Dr. SHAW. We never had any doubt about the Governor's recovery. We knew -what we had to do and we felt he could recover. I think I indicated -that to Mrs. Connally. - -Governor CONNALLY. As soon as you got into the chest and found out what -it was. - -Representative BOGGS. But, there was a very serious wound, was there -not, Doctor? - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. It was both a shocking and painful wound, and the -effects of the wound, the immediate effects of the wound, were very -dangerous as far as Governor Connally was concerned, because he had -what we call a sucking wound of the chest. This would not allow him to -breathe. I think instinctively what happened, while he was riding in -the car on the way to the hospital, he probably had his arm across, and -he may have instinctively closed that sucking area to some extent. But -they had to immediately put an occlusive dressing on it as soon as he -got inside to keep him from sucking air in and out of the right chest. - -Representative BOGGS. Had hospitalization been delayed for about -another half hour or so---- - -Dr. SHAW. That is speculation, but I don't think he could have -maintained breathing, sufficient breathing, for a half hour with that -type of wound. It is a little speculation. It would depend on how -well he could protect himself. We have had instances where by putting -their jackets around them like this, they could occlude this, and go -for a considerable period of time. Airmen during the war instinctively -protected themselves in this way. - -Representative BOGGS. You have no doubt about his physical ability to -serve as Governor? - -Dr. SHAW. None whatever. [Laughter.] - -Senator COOPER. I am just trying to remember whether we asked you, -Doctor, if you probed the wound in the thigh to see how deep it was. - -Dr. GREGORY. I did not, Senator. Dr. Tom Shires at our institution -attended that wound, and I have his description to go on, what he -found, what he had written, and his description is that it did not -penetrate the thigh very deeply, just to the muscle, but not beyond -that. - -Representative BOGGS. Just one other question of the Doctor. Having -looked at the wound, there is no doubt in either of your minds that -that bullet came from the rear, is there? - -Dr. GREGORY. There has never been any doubt in my mind about the origin -of the missile; no. - -Representative BOGGS. And in yours? - -Dr. SHAW. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, this is the exhibit which I was -referring to, being 689. Was that your approximate position -except--that is the alinement with your right hand being on your left -leg as you have just described? - -Governor CONNALLY. No; it looks like my right hand is up on my chest. -But I don't know. I can't say with any degree of certainty where my -right hand was, frankly. - -Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally---- - -Governor CONNALLY. It could have been up on my chest, it could have -been suspended in the air, it could have been down on my leg, it could -have been anywhere. I just don't remember. - -I obviously, I suppose, like anyone else, wound up the next day -realizing I was hit in three places, and I was not conscious of having -been hit but by one bullet, so I tried to reconstruct how I could have -been hit in three places by the same bullet, and I merely, I know it -penetrated from the back through the chest first. - -I assumed that I had turned as I described a moment ago, placing my -right hand on my left leg, that it hit my wrist, went out the center of -the wrist, the underside, and then into my leg, but it might not have -happened that way at all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were your knees higher on the jump seat than they would be -on a normal chair such as you are sitting on? - -Governor CONNALLY. I would say it was not unlike this, with the -exception the knees might be slightly higher, perhaps a half an inch to -an inch higher. - -Mr. DULLES. In this photograph you happen to have your right arm on -the side of the car. I don't know whether you recall that. That is -Commission Exhibit 698. That just happened to be one pose at one -particular time? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I don't think there is any question, Mr. -Dulles, at various times we were turned in every direction. We had arms -extended out of the car, on the side. - -Mr. DULLES. That was taken earlier, I believe. Was that on Main Street? -Where was that taken? - -Representative BOGGS. I wonder if I might ask a question? - -The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead. - -Representative BOGGS. This is a little bit off the subject, but it -is pretty well established that the Governor was shot and he has -recovered. Do you have any reason to believe there was any conspiracy -afoot for somebody to assassinate you? - -Governor CONNALLY. None whatever. - -Representative BOGGS. Had you ever received any threat from Lee Harvey -Oswald of any kind? - -Governor CONNALLY. No. - -Representative BOGGS. Did you know him? - -Governor CONNALLY. No. - -Representative BOGGS. Had you ever seen him? - -Governor CONNALLY. No. - -Representative BOGGS. Have you ever had any belief of, subsequent to -the assassination of President Kennedy and your own injury, that there -was a conspiracy here of any kind? - -Governor CONNALLY. None whatever. - -Representative BOGGS. What is your theory about what happened? - -Governor CONNALLY. Well, it is pure theory based on nothing more -than what information is available to everyone, and probably less is -available to me, certainly less than is available to you here on this -Commission. - -But I think you had an individual here with a completely warped, -demented mind who, for whatever reason, wanted to do two things: First, -to vent his anger, his hate, against many people and many things in -a dramatic fashion that would carve for him, in however infamous a -fashion, a niche in the history books of this country. And I think he -deliberately set out to do just what he did, and that is the only thing -that I can think of. - -You ask me my theory, and that is my theory, and certainly not -substantiated by any facts. - -Representative BOGGS. Going on again, Governor, and again using the -word "theory," do you have any reason to believe that there was any -connection between Oswald and Ruby? - -Governor CONNALLY. I have no reason to believe that there was; no, -Congressman. By the same token, if you ask me do I have any reason not -to believe it, I would have to answer the same, I don't know. - -Representative BOGGS. Yes. - -Governor CONNALLY. I just don't have any knowledge or any information -about the background of either, and I am just not in a position to -say. - -Mr. DULLES. You recall your correspondence with Oswald in connection -with Marine matters, when he thought you were still Secretary of the -Navy? - -Governor CONNALLY. After this was all over, I do, Mr. Dulles. As I -recall, he wrote me a letter asking that his dishonorable discharge be -corrected. But at the time he wrote the letter, if he had any reason -about it at all, or shortly thereafter, he would have recognized that I -had resigned as Secretary of the Navy a month before I got the letter, -so it would really take a peculiar mind, it seems to me, to harbor any -grudge as a result of that when I had resigned as Secretary prior to -the receipt of the letter. - -Mr. DULLES. I think I can say without violating any confidence, that -there is nothing in the record to indicate that there was--in fact, -Marina, the wife, testified, in fact, to the contrary. There was no -animus against you on the part of Oswald, as you---- - -Governor CONNALLY. I have wondered, of course, in my own mind as -to whether or not there could have conceivably been anything, and -the only--I suppose like any person at that particular moment, I -represented authority to him. Perhaps he was in a rebellious spirit -enough to where I was as much a target as anyone else. But that is the -only conceivable basis on which I can assume that he was deliberately -trying to hit me. - -Representative BOGGS. You have no doubt about the fact that he was -deliberately trying to hit you? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes, I do; I do have doubt, Congressman. I am not -at all sure he was shooting at me. I think I could with some logic -argue either way. The logic in favor of him, of the position that he -was shooting at me, is simply borne out by the fact that the man fired -three shots, and he hit each of the three times he fired. He obviously -was a pretty good marksman, so you have to assume to some extent at -least that he was hitting what he was shooting at. - -On the other hand, I think I could argue with equal logic that -obviously his prime target, and I think really his sole target, was -President Kennedy. His first shot, at least to him, he could not have -but known the effect that it might have on the President. His second -shot showed that he had clearly missed the President, and his result to -him, as the result of the first shot, the President slumped and changed -his position in the back seat just enough to expose my back. I haven't -seen all of the various positions, but again I think from where he was -shooting I was in the direct line of fire immediately in front of the -President, so any movement on the part of the President would expose me. - -The CHAIRMAN. Have you seen the moving pictures, Governor? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; I have, Mr. Chief Justice. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any point of exit on your thigh wound? - -Governor CONNALLY. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. (to Dr. Gregory.) Would you give the precise condition of -the right wrist, and cover the thigh, too? - -Dr. GREGORY. The present state of the wound on his wrist indicates that -the linear scar made in the course of the excision is well healed; that -its upper limb is about---- - -Governor CONNALLY. I thinks he wants you to describe the position of it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; the position. - -Dr. GREGORY. I was about to do that. The upper limb of it is about 5 -centimeters above the wrist joint, and curves around toward the thumb -distally to about a centimeter above the wrist joint. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the total length of that? - -Dr. GREGORY. The length of that excisional scar is about 4 centimeters, -an inch and a half. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the wound appearing to be on the palmer side? - -Dr. GREGORY. The wound on the palmer side of the wrist is now converted -to a well-healed linear scar approximately one-half inch in length, and -located about three-quarters of an inch above the distal flexion crease. - -Representative BOGGS. What is the prognosis for complete return of -function there? - -Dr. GREGORY. Very good, Congressman; very good. - -Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, I now show you the black jacket and ask -you if you can identify what that jacket is, whose it is? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; that is mine. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you last wear that jacket? - -Governor CONNALLY. On November 22 I was wearing this, the day of the -shooting. - -Mr. SPECTER. I show you Commission Exhibit 683 and ask you if that is a -photograph of the front side of the jacket, as it appears at the moment? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes; it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. I show you Exhibit 684, and ask if that is a photograph of -the rear side of the jacket? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a shirt and ask you if you can identify -this as having been the shirt you wore on the day of the assassination? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; that is the shirt I had on. - -Mr. SPECTER. I show you Exhibit 685 and ask if that is a picture of the -rear side of the shirt? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes; it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. Exhibit 686 is shown to you, and I ask you if that is a -photograph of the front side of the shirt? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. I show you a pair of black trousers and ask you if you can -identify them? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; these are the trousers to the coat we -looked at a moment ago. They were the trousers I was wearing on the day -of the shooting. - -Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph and ask you, which is Exhibit 687, -if that is a photograph of the front of the trousers? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. I show you Exhibit 688 and ask you if that depicts the -rear of the trousers? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it does. - -Mr. SPECTER. I show you a tie, and ask you if you can identify that? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; that is the tie I was wearing on the day -of the shooting. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 700 -and ask if that is a picture of the tie? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the permanent home of these clothes at the present -time when they are not on Commission business? - -Governor CONNALLY. They, the Archives of the State of Texas, asked for -the clothing, and I have given the clothing to them. That is where they -were sent from, I believe, here, to this Commission. - -Mr. SPECTER. At this juncture, Mr. Chief Justice, I move for the -admission in evidence of Commission Exhibits 699 and 700. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. - -(The items marked Commission Exhibits 699 and 700 for identification -were received in evidence.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, in 1963 we were informed that Lee -Harvey Oswald paid a visit to Austin. Tex., and is supposed to also -have visited your office. Do you have any knowledge of such a visit? - -Governor CONNALLY. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. What date did you give? - -Mr. SPECTER. 1963. - -Representative BOGGS. What date in 1963? - -Mr. SPECTER. We do not have the exact date on that. - -Representative BOGGS. Excuse me just a minute. Would your office -records indicate such a visit? - -Governor CONNALLY. It might or might not, Congressman. We have---- - -Representative BOGGS. That is what I would think. - -Governor CONNALLY. We have there a reception room that is open from -about 9:30 to 12 and from 2 to 4 every day, and depending on the time -of the year there are literally hundreds of people who come in there. -There would be as high as 80 at a time that come in groups, and a -tour--this is a very large reception room which, frankly, we can't -use for any other purpose because it is so useful for tourists, and -they literally come in by the hundreds, and some days we will have a -thousand people in that room on any given day. So for me to say he -never was in there, I couldn't do that; and he might well have been -there, and no record of it in the office. - -We make no attempt to keep a record of all the people who come in. If -they come in small groups or if they have appointments with me, or one -of my assistants, yes, we do. We keep records of people who come in and -want to leave a card or leave word that they dropped by. But I have no -knowledge that he ever came by. - -Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, on your recitation of the events on the -day of the assassination, you had come to the point where the shooting -was concluded and the automobile had started to accelerate toward the -hospital. What recollection do you have, if any, of the events on the -way to the hospital from the assassination scene? - -Governor CONNALLY. None really. I think at that point I had lost -consciousness because I don't have any recollection, Mr. Specter, of -anything that occurred on the way to the hospital. It was a very short -period of time, but I don't remember it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any recollection of your arrival at the -hospital itself, at the Parkland Hospital? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes. I think when the car stopped the driver was -obviously driving at a very rapid rate of speed, and apparently, as he -threw on the brakes of the car, it brought me back to consciousness. - -Again, a strange thing--strange things run through your mind and, -perhaps, not so strange under the circumstances, but I immediately--the -only thought that occurred to me was that I was in the jump seat next -to the door, that everyone concerned, was going to be concerned with -the President; that I had to get out of the way so they could get to -the President. So although I was reclining, and again Mrs. Connally -holding me, I suddenly lurched out of her arms and tried to stand -upright to get myself out of the car. - -I got--I don't really know how far I got. They tell me I got almost -upright, and then just collapsed again, and someone then picked me up -and put me on a stretcher. I again was very conscious because this was -the first time that I had any real sensation of pain, and at this point -the pain in the chest was excruciating, and I kept repeating just over -and over, "My God, it hurts, it hurts," and it was hurting, it was -excruciating at that point. - -I was conscious then off and on during the time I was in the emergency -room. I don't recall that I remember everything, but I remember quite a -bit. I remember being wheeled down the passageway, I remember doctors -and various people talking in the emergency room. I remember them -asking me a number of questions, too, which I answered, but that was -about it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether there was any bullet, or bullet -fragments, that remained in your body or in your clothing as you were -placed on the emergency stretcher at Parkland Hospital? - -Governor CONNALLY. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, other than that which you have already -testified to, do you know of any events or occurrences either before -the trip or with the President in Texas during his trip, or after his -trip, which could shed any light on the assassination itself? - -Governor CONNALLY. None whatever. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know of any conversations involving anyone at all, -either before the trip, during the trip, or after the trip, other than -those which you have already related, which would shed any light on the -facts surrounding the assassination? - -Governor CONNALLY. None whatever. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be -helpful to the Commission in any way? - -Governor CONNALLY. No, sir; Mr. Specter, I don't. - -I want to express my gratitude to the Commission for hearing me so -patiently, but I only wish I could have added something more that would -be helpful to the Commission on arriving at the many answers to so many -of these difficult problems, but I don't. - -I can only say that it has taken some little time to describe the -events and what happened. It is rather amazing in retrospect when you -think really what a short period of time it took for it to occur, in a -matter of seconds, and if my memory is somewhat vague about precisely -which way I was looking or where my hand or arm was, I can only say I -hope it is understandable in the light of the fact that this was a very -sudden thing. It was a very shocking thing. - -I have often wondered myself why I never had the presence of mind -enough--I obviously did say something; I said, "Oh, no, no, no," and -then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." - -I don't know why I didn't say. "Get down in the car," but I didn't. You -just never know why you react the way you do and why you don't do some -things you ought to do. - -But I am again grateful to this Commission as a participant in this -tragedy and as a citizen of this country, and I want to express, I -think in behalf of millions of people, our gratitude for the time and -energy and the dedication that this Commission has devoted to trying -to supply the answers that people, I am sure, will be discussing for -generations to come. I know it has been a difficult, long, laborious -task for you, but I know that generations of the future Americans will -be grateful for your efforts. - -Representative BOGGS. Governor, I would like to say that we have had -fine cooperation from all of your Texas officials, from the attorney -general of the State, and from his people and others who have worked -with the Commission. - -Governor CONNALLY. Well, we are delighted, and I am very happy that the -attorney general is here with us today. - -Senator COOPER. May I ask one question? - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes, Senator Cooper. - -Senator COOPER. Governor, at the time you all passed the Texas School -Book Depository, did you know that such a building was located there? -Were you familiar with the building at all? - -Governor CONNALLY. Just vaguely, Senator. - -Senator COOPER. But now when you heard the shot, you turned to your -right because you thought, as you said, that the shot came from that -direction. As you turned, was that in the direction of the Texas School -Book Depository? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it was. - -Senator COOPER. Do you remember an overpass in front of you---- - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. As you moved down? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Were you aware at all of any sounds of rifleshots from -the direction of the overpass, from the embankment? - -Governor CONNOLLY. No, sir; I don't believe there were such. - -Senator COOPER. Well, you know, there have been stories. - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; but I don't believe that. - -Senator COOPER. I wanted to ask you if you were very conscious of the -fact--you were conscious of a shot behind you, you were not aware of -any shot from the embankment or overpass. The answer is what? - -Governor CONNALLY. I am not aware of any shots from the overpass, -Senator. Senator, I might repeat my testimony with emphasis to this -extent, that I have all my life been familiar with the sound of a -rifleshot, and the sound I heard I thought was a rifleshot, at the time -I heard it I didn't think it was a firecracker, or blowout or anything -else. I thought it was a rifleshot. I have hunted enough to think that -my perception with respect to directions is very, very good, and this -shot I heard came from back over my right shoulder, which was in the -direction of the School Book Depository, no question about it. I heard -no other. The first and third shots came from there. I heard no other -sounds that would indicate to me there was any commotion or disturbance -of shots or anything else on the overpass. - -Senator COOPER. Would you describe again the nature of the shock that -you had when you felt that you had been hit by a bullet? - -Governor CONNALLY. Senator, the best way I can describe it is to say -that I would say it is as if someone doubled his fist and came up -behind you and just with about a 12-inch blow hit you right in the back -right below the shoulder blade. - -Senator COOPER. That is when you heard the first rifleshot? - -Governor CONNALLY. This was after I heard the first rifleshot. There -was no pain connected with it. There was no particular burning -sensation. There was nothing more than that. I think you would feel -almost the identical sensation I felt if someone came up behind you and -just, with a short jab, hit you with a doubled-up fist just below the -shoulder blade. - -Senator COOPER. That is all. - -Mr. SPECTER. I have just one other question, Governor. With respect to -the films and the slides which you have viewed this morning, had you -ever seen those pictures before this morning? - -Governor CONNALLY. I had seen what purported to be a copy of the film -when I was in the hospital in Dallas. I had not seen the slides. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when do you think you were hit on those slides, -Governor, or in what range of slides? - -Governor CONNALLY. We took--you are talking about the number of the -slides? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Governor CONNALLY. As we looked at them this morning, and as you -related the numbers to me, it appeared to me that I was hit in the -range between 130 or 131, I don't remember precisely, up to 134, in -that bracket. - -Mr. SPECTER. May I suggest to you that it was 231? - -Governor CONNALLY. Well, 231 and 234, then. - -Mr. SPECTER. The series under our numbering system starts with a higher -number when the car comes around the turn, so when you come out of the -sign, which was---- - -Governor CONNALLY. It was just after we came out of the sign, for -whatever that sequence of numbers was, and if it was 200, I correct my -testimony. It was 231 to about 234. It was within that range. - -Mr. SPECTER. That is all. - -The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions? - -Mr. DULLES. I have one or two. Governor, were you consulted at all -about the security arrangements in connection with the Dallas visit? - -Governor CONNALLY. No, sir; not really; no, sir; and let me add we -normally are not. - -Mr. DULLES. I realize that. - -Governor CONNALLY. Mr. Dulles, the Secret Service, as you know, comes -in, they work with both our department of public safety and the various -city police, and the various localities in which we are going. So far -as I know, there was complete cooperation on the part of everyone -concerned, but I was not consulted. - -Mr. DULLES. I think you mentioned that there was a slight change in -plans before the arrival in San Antonio. I don't know whether it -affects our investigation at all. Do you recall that? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; I don't know whether it--I don't think it -affects the testimony at all. I was merely trying to relate some of -the problems that had gone into planning a Presidential trip into four -cities. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Governor CONNALLY. And trying to arrange this all initially within -about a 12-hour period which had been expanded into a little more than -that because the President finally agreed to come the day before, and -come into San Antonio on the afternoon before the Thomas dinner on -Thursday night. - -Mr. DULLES. That was the change you had in mind? - -Governor CONNALLY. This was the change. This gave us much more latitude -because it permitted us to go into San Antonio, which is one of the -major stops, which was the major stop, really, because he dedicated -the Aerospace Medical Center on Thursday, which meant we did not have -to crowd Thursday. But there was a change, but not significant to this -investigation. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you happen to recall in general when the decision was -reached that the visit would include a trip to Dallas, or was that -always a part? - -Governor CONNALLY. I think it was always a part. - -Mr. DULLES. Of the planning? - -Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I think it was always a part. There was -consideration given, if you had to leave out some place, let us leave -out Dallas or let us leave out this one or that one, but there was -no question, I don't think, in anyone's mind if we made more than one -stop in the big cities that we were going to try to make them all, San -Antonio, Houston, Dallas, and Fort Worth. - -Mr. DULLES. You do not recall seeing anyone approach the car outside -of those who were in the procession just prior to the shooting, anyone -from the sidewalk or along the street there, in the park, which was on -one side? - -Governor CONNALLY. No, sir; I sure don't. - -Mr. DULLES. You and one other happen to be the only witnesses who have -indicated that they recognized it as being a rifleshot. The other -witness, like you, was a huntsman. Most of the witnesses have indicated -they thought it was a backfire; the first shot was a backfire or a -firecracker. - -Can you distinguish, what is there that distinguishes a rifleshot from -a backfire or a firecracker? Can you tell or is it just instinct? - -Governor CONNALLY. I am not sure I could accurately describe it. I -don't know that I have ever attempted to. I would say a firecracker -or a blowout has more of a hollow, bursting kind of sound, as if you -popped a balloon, or something of this sort. A rifleshot, on the other -hand, to me has more of a ring, kind of an echo to it, more of a -metallic sound to it. It is a more penetrating sound than a firecracker -or a blowout. It carries---- - -Mr. DULLES. That gives me what I had in mind. I realize that. That is -all I have, Mr. Chief Justice. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. We are very appreciative of the help -you have given us. - -Senator COOPER. May I ask just one question? - -The CHAIRMAN. We hate to have you review all of this sordid thing again. - -Senator COOPER. May I ask a rather general question? I would like to -ask, in view of all the discussion which has been had, was there any -official discussion of any kind before this trip of which you were -aware that there might be some act of violence against the President? - -Governor CONNALLY. No, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Thank you. - -Governor CONNALLY. No; let me say that there have been several news -stories---- - -Senator COOPER. Yes, I know. - -Governor CONNALLY. That purportedly quoted me about not wanting the -President to ride in a motorcade or caravan in Dallas. That is very -true. But the implication was that I had some fear of his life, which -is not true. - -The reason I didn't want him to do it at the time it came up was simply -we were running out of time, and that, I thought, we were working him -much too hard. This again was before the change, moving San Antonio to -Thursday instead of having it all on one day, and I was opposed to a -motorcade because they do drain energy, and it takes time to do it, and -I didn't think we had the time. - -But once we got San Antonio moved from Friday to Thursday afternoon, -where that was his initial stop in Texas, then we had the time, and I -withdrew my objections to a motorcade. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Governor. - -Governor CONNALLY. Thank you, sir. - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. JOHN BOWDEN CONNALLY, JR. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Connally, would you mind telling us the story of -this affair as you heard it, and we will be brief, and we will start -right with the shooting itself, and Mr. Specter will also examine you. - -Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? Do you solemnly -swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will -be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. Will you sit, please? - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you the wife of Governor John C. Connally? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. No, I am the wife of Governor John B. Connally. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally, tell us what happened at the time of the -assassination. - -Mrs. CONNALLY. We had just finished the motorcade through the downtown -Dallas area, and it had been a wonderful motorcade. The people had been -very responsive to the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and we were very -pleased, I was very pleased. - -As we got off Main Street--is that the main thoroughfare? - -Mr. SPECTER. That is the street on which you were proceeding through -the town, yes. - -Mrs. CONNALLY. In fact the receptions had been so good every place that -I had showed much restraint by not mentioning something about it before. - -I could resist no longer. When we got past this area I did turn to the -President and said, "Mr. President, you can't say Dallas doesn't love -you." - -Then I don't know how soon, it seems to me it was very soon, that I -heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that -it was a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the -right. - -I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President -as he had both hands at his neck. - -Mr. SPECTER. And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands -crossing over gripping your own neck? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no -utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of -nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down. - -Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John. As the first -shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John -saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot, and it hit -John, and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded -animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." - -I never again---- - -Mr. DULLES. To the right was into your arms more or less? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was -him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband -was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the -right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over -to pull him toward me. I was trying to get him down and me down. The -jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid -into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my -lap, which he did not. - -I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been -impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding -him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head -down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, -and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look -back any more. - -The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling -all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the -matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car -and both of us. - -I thought John had been killed, and then there was some imperceptible -movement, just some little something that let me know that there was -still some life, and that is when I started saying to him, "It's all -right. Be still." - -Now, I did hear the Secret Service man say, "Pull out of the motorcade. -Take us to the nearest hospital," and then we took out very rapidly to -the hospital. - -Just before we got to Parkland, we made a right-hand turn, he must have -been going very fast, because as he turned the weight of my husband's -body almost toppled us both. - -Mr. SPECTER. How fast do you think he was going? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. I don't know; very rapidly. The people I could see going -by were just rushing. We were just rushing by very fast. - -We arrived at the hospital and sat there what seemed to me like an -interminable time, and from what I know was just a few minutes, but -the thoughts that went through my mind were how long must I sit here -with this dying man in my arms while everybody is swarming over the -President whom I felt very sure was dead, and just when I thought I -could sit and wait no longer, John just sort of heaved himself up. He -did not rise up in the car, he just sort of heaved himself up, and then -collapsed down into the seat. - -Mr. SPECTER. At that time you and Governor Connally were still on the -jump seats of the car? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes, and they had not--the President was still--and Mrs. -Kennedy were still in the back. I still had not ever looked back at -the back seat after the second shot. I could hear, you know, hear them -talking about how sad, and lamenting the fact that the President was -in such poor shape and, of course, they didn't know whether he was--I -guess they didn't know whether he was alive or dead. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did President Kennedy say anything at all after the -shooting? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. He did not say anything. Mrs. Kennedy said, the first -thing I recall her saying was, after the first shot, and I heard her -say, "Jack, they have killed my husband," and then there was the second -shot, and then after the third shot she said, "They have killed my -husband. I have his brains in my hand," and she repeated that several -times, and that was all the conversation. - -Mr. SPECTER. From that point forward you say you had your eyes to the -front so you did not have a chance---- - -Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes, because I had him, and I really didn't think about -looking back anyway, but I could just see the car rushing along, and -people and things rushing past us. I remember thinking what a terrible -sight this must be to those people, to see these two shot-up men, and -it was a terribly horrifying thing, and I think that is about as I -remember it. - -Mr. SPECTER. What happened then after you got to the hospital? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. We got to the hospital and, like I said, John heaved -himself over. They still could not seem to get Mrs. Kennedy or the -President out of the back of the car, but someone scooped him up in -their arms and put him on a stretcher. There were two stretchers there, -and then they took him off immediately to the emergency room, and they -ran down the hall with the stretcher, and I just ran along with them. - -They took him into the emergency room, and right behind us came the -President on a stretcher, and they took him and put him in a room to -the right. There was much commotion and confusion. There were lots of -what I assumed were Secret Service men rushing in with machine guns, -I guess, or tommyguns. I am not real sure, they were big arms of some -sort. There was no one--there were lots of people across the hall. -There was no one with me and, of course, my thoughts then were, I guess -like any other woman, I wondered if all the doctors were in the room on -the left, and they were not taking too good care of my husband on the -right. I shouldn't have worried about that, should I? - -I knew no one in the hospital and I was alone. Twice I got up and -opened the door into the emergency room, and I could hear John and I -could see him moving, and I knew then that he was still alive. - -I guess that time was short, too. It seemed endless. Somebody rushed -out, I thought it was a nurse, and handed me one cuff link. I later -read that it was a lady doctor. - -They took him out of there very soon up to surgery, and I just left -with him and waited in an office. Do you know whose office I was in? It -was where you came to me. - -Dr. GREGORY. Dr. Jenkins' office. - -Dr. SHAW. Yes. You were either in the anesthesia office or in the room -that is part of the recovery room. Was it the same place where you -later stayed, Mrs. Connally? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. No. - -Dr. GREGORY. I think it was back in Dr. Jenkins' office. That is where -I believe I first saw you. - -Mrs. CONNALLY. I believe that is right. - -As soon as Dr. Shaw found that he had some encouraging news, that the -wounds were not as extensive as he had thought they could be or might -be, he sent that word to me from the operating room, and that was good -news. - -I then asked if I couldn't go see Mrs. Kennedy, and they told me that -she had left the hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you visited at the hospital by Mrs. Johnson? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes, I was. But I assume that was before, since they -left together, not much of a visit. She came by and we didn't have to -say much, and then they left. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally, what was your impression, if any, as to the -source of the shots? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. Well, I had no thought of whether they were high or low -or where. They just came from the right; sounded like they were to my -right. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many did you hear in all? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. I heard three. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate on the time that passed from -the first to the last shot? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. Very short. It seemed to me that there was less time -between the first and the second than between the second and the third. - -Mr. SPECTER. About how fast do you think the car was going then? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. I don't really know. Not too fast. It was sort of a -letdown time for us. We could relax for, we thought we could, for just -a minute. - -Mr. SPECTER. And you mean by that since the major part of the crowd had -been passed? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. We had gone by them. The underpass was in sight, and I -knew that as soon as we passed through the underpass that then we would -be going straight to the Trade Mart for the luncheon, and I felt like -we would then be moving fast and not have people on all sides of us. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the films this morning here in the Commission -office? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes, I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opinion as to which frame it was that -Governor Connally was shot? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes. I was in agreement with the Governor. I am not sure -I remember the numbers so correct me, but I thought at the time that it -was that 229--it could have been then through the next three or four -frames. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything---- - -Mrs. CONNALLY. They were blurred. - -Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the source, you say you thought it was to -the right--did you have any reaction as to whether they were from the -front, rear or side? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. I thought it was from back of us. - -Mr. SPECTER. To the rear? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. To the right; that is right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any reaction as to the question of elevation -or level? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. No, I didn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add which you think would be -helpful to the Commission in any way? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. I don't think so. - -The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions? Senator, do you have any? -Do you have any, Mr. Dulles? - -Mr. DULLES. I just have one question. Mrs. Connally, on one point your -testimony differs from a good many others as to the timing of the -shots. I think you said that there seemed to be more time between the -second and third than between the first and the second; is that your -recollection? - -Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. That is, the space between the first and the second was -less than between the second and the third? You realize I just wanted -to get whether I had heard you correctly on that. - -Mrs. CONNALLY. You did. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much. - -Mrs. CONNALLY. Thank you. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Connally, thank you very much. We hate to have you -review all this in your mind's eye again, but it was necessary to have -your testimony, and you were very kind to come. - -Mrs. CONNALLY. Thank you. - -The CHAIRMAN. We appreciate it very much, indeed. - -(Whereupon, at 5:45 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned.) - - - - -_Wednesday, April 22, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF JESSE EDWARD CURRY, J. W. FRITZ, T. L. BAKER, AND J. C. DAY - -The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on April 22, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman -Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. -Dulles, members. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball, -assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Melvin Aron -Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel; -Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray, observer; Waggoner -Carr, attorney general of Texas; and Dean Robert G. Storey, special -counsel to the attorney general of Texas. - - -TESTIMONY OF JESSE EDWARD CURRY - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order. - -Chief, we have asked you to come here this morning, you and some of -your officers, for the purpose of taking their testimony concerning the -matters surrounding the arrest and the death of Lee Oswald at the time -of the assassination of the President. - -I think we will take the testimony of you, Captain Fritz, Lieutenant -Day, and Lieutenant Baker. I want to say to you, Chief, before I leave, -I will have to leave after an hour or so in order to sit on some cases -we are hearing in the Supreme Court but I want to say to you beforehand -that our staff was very much pleased with the cooperation that it -received from your people when they were down in Dallas, and from the -help that you personally gave to them, and made it very helpful, they -were very helpful, and we did need to have speed at that particular -time, because, as you know, we were obliged to wait until the Ruby -trial was over before we could come down there at all. - -So, we appreciate the assistance that your people gave us throughout -that proceeding. - -Now, would you please rise, Chief, and raise your right hand to be -sworn. - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. CURRY. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rankin, our Chief Counsel, will interrogate you, -Chief. Mr. Rankin, will you proceed? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes; Mr. Chief Justice. Chief Curry, you gave a deposition -for the Commission recently, did you not? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; I did, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. That was about April 15, 1964? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. And that was down in Dallas that you gave it? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; it was. - -Mr. RANKIN. And Mr. Hubert examined you? - -Mr. CURRY. That is true. - -Mr. RANKIN. That was taken down by a court reporter? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have anything to add to what you said at that time -or wish to correct it in any way? - -Mr. CURRY. I can't recall of anything that I should correct or add to. - -Mr. RANKIN. I ask you those questions in a general way, we will go back -to certain parts of that but I would like to proceed at this time in -view of the fact that the Chief Justice and possibly other members of -the Commission who will come may not be able to be here all the time -that you are being examined and I would like to get to certain crucial -matters if I may. - -When did you learn of the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. CURRY. While I was out at Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know about what time that was, the day? - -Mr. CURRY. It was on the 22d and the best I recall it was around 1 -o'clock or maybe a little after 1 o'clock. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did that come to your attention? - -Mr. CURRY. Some of my officers came to me and said they had arrested a -suspect in the shooting of our Officer Tippit. - -Mr. RANKIN. What else did they say? - -Mr. CURRY. They also told me a little later, I believe, that he was a -suspect also in the assassination of the President. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you do then? - -Mr. CURRY. I didn't do anything at the time. I was at the hospital, and -I remained at the hospital until some of the Secret Service asked me -to prepare two cars that we were informed that President Kennedy had -expired and we were requested to furnish two cars for President Johnson -and some of his staff to return to Love Field. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you do that? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; I did. - -Mr. RANKIN. What else--what did you do after that? - -Mr. CURRY. After the planes departed from Love Field, I was there for -the inauguration of the President, and then we left the plane, and -Judge Sarah Hughes and myself, and I remained at Love for some, I guess -perhaps an hour. - -Mr. RANKIN. By inauguration, you mean the swearing in of the President? - -Mr. CURRY. That is right, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. On the plane? - -Mr. CURRY. On the plane; yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then you left Love Field? - -Mr. CURRY. I talked to Mayor Cabell and his wife for a little while and -after the plane left Love Field then I left Love Field. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you go with Judge Hughes or she go with you? - -Mr. CURRY. No; she was in her own car. - -Mr. RANKIN. I see. - -Mr. CURRY. And I returned to the city hall. - -Mr. DULLES. Did I understand correctly, how long were you at Love Field -after the plane of the President left? - -Mr. CURRY. As I recall it was approximately an hour. - -Mr. DULLES. That is what I thought. - -Mr. CURRY. We waited there until the casket bearing the President, and -then the cars bearing Mrs. Kennedy arrived, and it was, I would judge -an hour perhaps. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. CURRY. I returned to my office at city hall. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about Lee Harvey Oswald at that time? - -Mr. CURRY. No. As I went into the city hall it was overrun with the -news media. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you do about that? - -Mr. CURRY. I didn't do anything. They were jammed into the north hall -of the third floor, which are the offices of the criminal investigation -division. The television trucks, there were several of them around the -city hall. I went into my administrative offices, I saw cables coming -through the administrative assistant office and through the deputy -chief of traffic through his office, and running through the hall -they had a live TV set up on the third floor, and it was a bedlam of -confusion. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone of the police department give them permission to -do this? - -Mr. CURRY. I noticed--well, I don't know who gave them permission -because I wasn't there. When I returned they were up there. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you inquire about whether permission had been given? - -Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't. We had in the past had always permitted free -movement of the press around the city hall but we had never been faced -with anything like this before where we had national and international -news media descending upon us in this manner. - -Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe to the Commission the difference this -time as compared with the ordinary case that you have handled? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, the ordinary case, perhaps we have two or three or -maybe a half dozen reporters, we have a room for them on the third -floor where they normally on assignment at city hall they stay in this -room. - -As prisoners are brought to and from the interrogation offices, it is -necessary to bring them down the main corridor, and they usually are -waiting there where they take pictures of them as they enter and as -they leave and they sometimes try to ask them questions. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, how was this different? - -Mr. CURRY. That there was such total confusion here. We had to post men -on the door to keep them actually from going into the office where they -were interrogating. We had some men, police reserves and a sergeant, I -noticed on the third floor when I come off the elevator. - -They were stationed there, and they were screening people to see -whether or not they had business on the third floor because we did have -to carry on our other normal business, the burglary and theft and the -juvenile bureau and the auto theft bureau, the forgery bureau all of -these are on the third floor in this wing. - -The CHAIRMAN. Chief, is this building just a police building or a -municipal building, general purposes? - -Mr. CURRY. It is a section of the municipal building. - -The CHAIRMAN. A section of it. Is it isolated from the rest of it? - -Mr. CURRY. No; it is connected. - -The CHAIRMAN. Connected? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. And on the first floor we have the courts and the -traffic violations bureau. - -In the basement it is principally police offices. On the second floor -we have the city planning commission, and we have part of our traffic -division and special service bureau on the second floor. - -Then on the third floor we have the criminal investigation division. -We have the police dispatcher's office, and we have the administrative -offices and we have the personnel offices. - -The CHAIRMAN. I see. - -Mr. CURRY. But all these are connected with the municipal building, -each floor is. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with the interrogation of Lee -Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I did not. I was in the office once or twice while -he was being interrogated but I never asked him any question myself. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who did? - -Mr. CURRY. Captain Fritz principally interrogated him, I believe. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that his responsibility? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; it was. There were several people in the office. It -seems to me we were violating every principle of interrogation, the -method by which we had to interrogate. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you explain to the Commission what you mean by that? - -Mr. CURRY. Ordinarily an interrogator in interrogating a suspect will -have him in a quiet room alone or perhaps with one person there. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that your regular practice? - -Mr. CURRY. That is the regular practice. - -Mr. RANKIN. Tell us how this was done? - -Mr. CURRY. This we had representatives from the Secret Service, we had -representatives from the FBI, we had representatives from the Ranger -Force, and they were--and then one or two detectives from the homicide -bureau. This was, well, it was just against all principles of good -interrogation practice. - -Mr. RANKIN. By representatives can you tell us how many were from each -of these agencies that you describe? - -Mr. CURRY. I can't be sure. I recall I believe two from the FBI, one -or two, Inspector Kelley was there from Secret Service, and I believe -another one of his men was there. There was one, I recall seeing one -man from the Rangers. I don't recall who he was. I just remember now -that there was one. - -Captain Fritz, and one or two of his detectives--this was in a small -office. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about this when you found out there -were so many, did you give any instructions about it? - -Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't. This was an unusual case. In fact, I had -received a call from the FBI requesting that they have a representative -from there in the hearing room. And we were trying to cooperate with -all agencies concerned in this, and I called Captain Fritz and asked -him to permit a representative of the FBI to come in. - -Mr. DULLES. Who was directing the interrogation, Captain Fritz? - -Mr. CURRY. Captain Fritz. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how Lee Harvey Oswald was treated by the police -department? - -Mr. CURRY. So far as I know he was treated as any other prisoner is -treated. He was not handled in any manner any different from any other -prisoner. He had a scratch or two on his face which he received when he -was wrestling with the police over in this theater in Oak Cliff. Other -than that he had no marks on him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever complain that you know of about his treatment -while he was there? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you give any instructions about the security or how he -should be protected during this time? - -Mr. CURRY. No; I personally didn't. Deputy Chief Lumpkin, who has -charge of the service division which is the jail security, he told me -that he had ordered that two guards be placed on him right outside his -cell and kept there 24 hours a day as long as we had him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what was done about that? - -Mr CURRY. It was carried out. He told me that this was carried out. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any further difficulty with the media, the -various press and radio and television representatives during this time? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, every time we would walk out of the office they would -besiege you with questions and wanting statements and asking what we -had found out, and did we think this was the right man, and they almost -ran over you. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you do about that? - -Mr. CURRY. I tried to maintain some order. I didn't order them out of -the building, which if I had it to do over I would. In the past like I -say, we had always maintained very good relations with our press, and -they had always respected us, and this was something, the first time we -experienced anything like this, to this degree. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any tape recordings of the interviews with Mr. -Oswald? - -Mr. CURRY. I do not have. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone? - -Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge. Unless someone from the FBI or the -Secret Service, if they recorded it, I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. How many times was he interrogated, do you know? - -Mr. CURRY. No; I do not know that. - -Mr. RANKIN. You never examined him yourself at any time? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe the place where he was kept while he was -there in the jail? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, it is in one of our maximum security cells, much -the same as any other jail. But he was isolated away from the other -prisoners, and there was two jail guards set immediately outside his -cell. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you isolate him or was that in accordance with your -instructions? - -Mr. CURRY. No; this is customary with a prisoner of this type and Chief -Lumpkin in charge of the service division had issued these orders. - -Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by maximum security in your prison? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, we have some cells where they have cells that are -locked and then you come out of the cell into a corridor and that is -locked, and these are maintained from a master control box. That is a -maximum security cell. Some of the others they just have a lock on the -door and it opens out into the hallway. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about furnishing him clothing? - -Mr. CURRY. We removed his clothing except for his underwear in order -that he couldn't harm himself. When he was removed from the cell, of -course, his clothes were given to him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was he allowed to shower and clean up. - -Mr. CURRY. I don't think he ever asked for a shower while he was there. -Had he asked for one he would have been permitted to shower and he -would have been permitted to shave. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was he treated any differently in any way that you know of -than other prisoners? - -Mr. CURRY. Except perhaps a little more security placed on him, a -constant security. Ordinarily we wouldn't, except in unusual cases -would we have a constant surveillance on a prisoner, and this is -usually, if we felt like he might try to harm himself we would have -someone there to immediately prevent it. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question? - -What was Oswald's attitude toward the police? Have you any comment on -that? - -Mr. CURRY. The only things I heard him say, he was very arrogant. He -was very--he had a dislike for authority, it seemed, of anyone. He -denied anything you asked him. I heard them ask once or twice if this -was his picture or something, he said, "I don't know what you are -talking about. No; it is not my picture," and this was a picture of him -holding a rifle or something. I remember one time they showed him and -he denied that being him. - -I remember he denied anything knowing anything about a man named Hidell -that he had this identification in his pocket or in his notebook, and -I believe a postal inspector was in this room at the time, too, and -someone asked him about the fact that he had a post office box in the -name of Hidell and he didn't know anything about that. He just didn't -know anything about anything. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did it ever come to your attention that he ever asked for -or inquired about counsel? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; I heard him say something. I asked if he had had an -opportunity to use the phone and Captain Fritz told me they were giving -him an opportunity to use the phone. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about counsel? - -Mr. CURRY. As I recall he said he wanted to try to get in touch with -John Abt. - -Mr. RANKIN. A-b-t? - -Mr. CURRY. A-b-t, I believe an attorney in New York, to handle his case -and then if he couldn't get him he said he wanted to get someone from -Civil Liberties Union. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you do about that? - -Mr. CURRY. I told them to let him talk to them in an attempt to get his -attorney and in an attempt to get some of his relatives so they could -arrange for it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe how it was handled for him to be able to -talk on the telephone? - -Mr. CURRY. We take them from their cells and we have two telephones -that they are taken to, and they are put on these telephones and they -are locked in, and a guard stands by while they make their calls. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that call secret or is there any listening in on it? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; it is not supposed to be secret. I mean it is -supposed to be secret. It is privileged communication as far as we are -concerned, we don't have a tap on the phone or anything. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he use this? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; he did. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether an attorney from Dallas was offered to -him and came to the jail? - -Mr. CURRY. There were some members of the Civil Liberties Union came -to see us that night, and they said they were concerned with whether -or not he was being permitted legal counsel. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did they talk to you? - -Mr. CURRY. No; they didn't talk to me. They talked to Professor Webster. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did this come to your attention? - -Mr. CURRY. He told me. - -Mr. RANKIN. I see. Now, tell us what he said. - -Mr. CURRY. He said that they had come down to see whether or not he -was being permitted legal counsel, and Professor Webster is in the law -school out at Southern Methodist University and he told them he thought -he was being given an opportunity to get in touch with legal counsel, -and they seemed satisfied then about it. We also got Mr. Nichols. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who is he? - -Mr. CURRY. He was president of the Dallas Bar Association or criminal -bar. I don't know which, Louis Nichols, and---- - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he do? - -Mr. CURRY. He came down, he said he had heard that he was not being -allowed the right to counsel, and they wanted to see and so I took him -myself up to Lee Harvey Oswald's cell and let him go in the cell and -talk to Lee Harvey Oswald. - -The CHAIRMAN. Who was Mr. Nichols, did you say? - -Mr. CURRY. Louis Nichols. He was president either of the Dallas---- - -Dean STOREY. Pardon me, it is Dallas Bar Association. - -Mr. CURRY. Dallas Bar Association. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. - -Mr. CURRY. He went in to talk to him and to see whether or not he was -getting an opportunity to receive counsel and he seemed pleased, I mean -he had no complaints. He told him if he didn't get John Abt then he -wanted someone from the Civil Liberties Union to come up and talk to -him. Then Mr. Nichols then went out in front of the television cameras, -I believe and made a statement to the effect that he had talked to him -and he was satisfied that he was being given the opportunity for legal -counsel. - -The CHAIRMAN. On what day was this? - -Mr. CURRY. That was on the same day we arrested him? - -The CHAIRMAN. That was Friday? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether Mr. Oswald ever did obtain counsel? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't believe he did. But I do know he made some telephone -contacts. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did the police department so far as you know interfere in -any way with his obtaining counsel? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when Lee Harvey Oswald was arraigned? - -Mr. CURRY. It was about 1:30 in the morning. That would be on the -morning of the 23d, I believe. - -Mr. RANKIN. How long did he--how long had he been in your custody then? - -Mr. CURRY. About 11 hours. That was on the Tippit; yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you say that he was arraigned the following day -early in the morning, did you mean for the Tippit murder or for the -assassination? - -Mr. CURRY. No; that was for the assassination of the President. - -Mr. RANKIN. All right, will you tell us when he was arraigned for the -Tippit murder? - -Mr. CURRY. I was not present but I believe it was about 7:30. - -Mr. RANKIN. That same evening? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; that would be about 5 hours afterwards. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether he was arrested first for the -assassination or for the Tippit murder? - -Mr. CURRY. For the Tippit murder. There were some witnesses to this -murder and they had observed him as he left the scene, and this was -what he was arrested for. - -The CHAIRMAN. May I interrupt just to ask the chief a question? - -Chief, on your arraignments does the magistrate advise the petitioner -as to his right to counsel? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; he does. - -The CHAIRMAN. Does he ask him if he has counsel? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't recall him doing that. I am not customarily present -when a person is arraigned. - -The CHAIRMAN. You were not present at the arraignment? - -Mr. CURRY. I was present when he was arraigned for the assassination of -the President. I was not present when he was arraigned for the murder -of Tippit. - -The CHAIRMAN. I suppose they make a stenographic record of that, do -they not? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I am sure they do. - -The CHAIRMAN. That is all I have. - -Mr. RANKIN. Chief, our people made an inquiry whether there was a -stenographic record. They don't believe there was any. - -Mr. CURRY. I am not sure of that. I know at the time he was arraigned -for the assassination of the President I was present there at the time. -It was decided that we should, district attorney was there at the city -hall. He was there during most of the evening. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you just describe for the Commission what happened -during the arraignment for the assassination, who was present, what you -saw. - -Mr. CURRY. As I recall, I know the Justice of the Peace David John -Stone was there. It seemed like Sergeant Warren, but I couldn't be -positive but some of the jail personnel brought him out into the -identification bureau. - -Mr. RANKIN. How was he taken out? Were there several people around him, -what was the security arrangements? - -Mr. CURRY. At that time there was only, we were inside the offices of -the criminal identification section. He was brought out through a door -that opens from the jail into the criminal identification section. -There was only about a half dozen of us altogether there, I don't -recall who all was there. - -Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by the criminal identification section. -Could you describe what that is? - -Mr. CURRY. That is the identification bureau. - -Mr. RANKIN. Does that have a room that this meeting occurred in? - -Mr. CURRY. It is not a room such as this. It was in the little foyer or -lobby, and it is separated from the jail lobby. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did the justice of the peace sit or stand or what? - -Mr. CURRY. He stood. He stood on one side of the counter and Oswald on -the other side of the counter. - -Mr. RANKIN. What floor is this on? - -Mr. CURRY. The fourth floor. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is nearest the place where there are some filing -cabinets? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; it is. - -Mr. RANKIN. And besides the people that you have described, I assume -that you yourself were there as you have said? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; I was. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there anyone else that you recall? - -Mr. CURRY. Not that I recall, other than the justice of the peace. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe what happened? - -Mr. CURRY. Lee Harvey Oswald was brought in and the complaint was read -to him, and here again he was very arrogant and he said, "I don't know -what you are talking about. That is the deal, is it," and such remarks -as this, and the justice of the peace very patiently and courteously -explained to him what the procedure was and why it was. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't recall his exact words. - -Mr. RANKIN. Just tell us in substance. - -Mr. CURRY. He didn't--as I recall, he didn't think much of it. He just -said, "I don't know what you are talking about." - -Mr. RANKIN. What did the justice of the peace say about the procedure -and any rights and so forth? - -Mr. CURRY. As I recall it, he read to him the fact that he was being -charged with the assassination of the President of the United States, -John Kennedy on such and such day at such and such time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about his right to plead? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't recall, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about counsel? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't recall whether he did or not. - -Mr. RANKIN. What else happened at that time that you recall? - -Mr. CURRY. That is about all. After it was read to him, he was taken -back to his cell. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you go back with him to the cell? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who took him back to the cell? - -Mr. CURRY. The jailer and assistant jailer or jail guard. - -Mr. RANKIN. What came to your attention after that about Lee Harvey -Oswald, that you can recall, what was the next thing that happened that -you know of? - -Mr. CURRY. The next thing that I know of, was the next morning. - -Mr. RANKIN. What happened then? - -Mr. CURRY. The interrogation of Lee Harvey continued on and off through -the day. No; I had asked the captain during the afternoon if he was -being given rest periods and if he was being fed properly so that he -wouldn't have reason to complain that we were mistreating him in any -way. - -Mr. RANKIN. What captain did you ask that? - -Mr. CURRY. Fritz. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say? - -Mr. CURRY. He said he was. He said he was not interrogating him on long -drawn-out extended periods, he was letting him rest and he was being -fed. - -Mr. DULLES. Did the interrogation continue into the night or did it -stop, do you know? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't know what--well, it did continue into that first -night, I know. But I don't know what time they discontinued the -interrogation. - -Mr. RANKIN. They stopped? - -Mr. CURRY. I was not in the offices all the time. I was there two or -three times. - -Mr. RANKIN. Captain Fritz tell you anything about the interrogation, -how it was going, what was said? - -Mr. CURRY. He told me about, oh, late in the afternoon or early in the -evening that he felt that he had enough evidence to file on him for the -murder of the officer, and he told me, he said, "I strongly suspect -that he was the assassin of the President." - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what time of day it was? - -Mr. CURRY. It seemed to me like it was 6 or 7 o'clock on the day of the -22d. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you describe the situation in the police headquarters -with regard to the media. Were they continuing to be there? - -Mr. CURRY. They remained there. You could hardly get down the hall, -and it was necessary, when we would take the prisoner back to the jail -to bring him out of the office, and down this hallway and put him on a -special elevator just for prisoners. - -Mr. RANKIN. What office do you mean when you say that? - -Mr. CURRY. From the homicide office. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. You took him down what hallway? - -Mr. CURRY. The third floor hallway. The offices run like this in the -building. The homicide office is right along here, perhaps 25 feet. The -elevator is right here, this is a special elevator that runs to the -jail. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark that homicide office with an "H" on to -indicate it? - -Mr. CURRY. This extends up here a little more perhaps. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark the elevator with "EL." - -The CHAIRMAN. There is a lot of other writing on this paper a lot of -doodling that someone else has done and I think the chief had better -have a new piece of paper. - -Gentlemen, before you get into a discussion of this diagram with the -chief, Mr. Rankin, I must leave now for a session of the Court, and Mr. -Dulles, will you preside in my absence? - -Mr. DULLES. Yes, Mr. Chairman. - -The CHAIRMAN. I will be back immediately at the conclusion of our -session today. - -(At this point, the Chief Justice left the hearing room.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Chief, have you marked on a yellow sheet of paper a diagram -of the third floor of the police headquarters? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; I have, principally the north end of it. - -Mr. RANKIN. We will call that Exhibit 701. Will you describe briefly -for the Commission just what you have marked on there now? - -Mr. CURRY. I have a rough layout of the north end of the third floor of -the police and courts building in Dallas, Tex. - -Now, this shows the public elevators, the lobby way in front of the -elevators, and then a hall that extends the length of the third floor -from north to south. - -In the extreme north end there is a small press room where ordinarily -the news media stay from early morning until late at night to cover -police events. - -I have also marked off the other bureaus that are located on this -floor, the burglary and theft bureau would be on the west side, and in -the northwest corner is the juvenile bureau. - -The northeast corner is the auto theft bureau, the next going south -would be the forgery bureau, and then would be the homicide office -or homicide bureau, which is adjacent to a hallway, the north-south -hallway, and also the rear office is adjacent to the hall going over -to the municipal building which is immediately east of the police and -courts building. - -The entrance to the homicide office is approximately 20 or 25 feet to -the entrance to this jail elevator, and it is necessary to bring a -prisoner down this hall in order to get him into this jail elevator. -Each time we--that I observed them move Oswald, they were almost -overrun by news media. - -Mr. RANKIN. By overrun, what do you mean? - -Could you describe with a little more definiteness, are you talking -about 4 or 5 or 10? - -Mr. CURRY. I will say probably a hundred, at least a hundred that were -jammed into this hallway. - -(At this point, Mr. McCloy entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Were some of them--I will withdraw that question. - -Were some of these people from the news media from the press and others -from the radio and others from the television? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; that is true, sir. - -(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, you said that Mr. Nichols came that afternoon. -I call to your attention that we have information that he came there on -the Saturday afternoon. - -Mr. CURRY. Perhaps it was, not the Friday. That perhaps was on Saturday. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you could just summarize briefly where we are. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Back on the record. - -In regard to Mr. Nichols, did you know whether or not he offered to -represent or provide counsel? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; he did. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that? - -Mr. CURRY. He said he didn't care to at this time. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did Mr. Nichols say about providing counsel? - -Mr. CURRY. He said the Dallas Bar would provide counsel if he desired -counsel. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is to Mr. Oswald? - -Mr. CURRY. Oswald. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did Mr. Oswald say? - -Mr. CURRY. He said, "I don't at this time," he said, "If I can't get -Mr. Abt to represent me or someone from Civil Liberties Union I will -call on you later." - -Representative FORD. Did Nichols and Oswald talk one to another? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; he was taken to see Oswald and he talked to him. - -Mr. RANKIN. And this all occurred at the meeting you have already -described? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Between Mr. Nichols and Mr. Oswald? - -Mr. CURRY. That is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you had so many people of the news media in all of -your corridors and throughout your police headquarters, did you discuss -that with the mayor or any of the other authorities? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't recall that I specifically discussed this condition. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask for any instructions or advice? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about it that you have not already -described? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. DULLES. Did it worry you? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; it did. I was concerned about it. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you have a definite system of checking credentials of -these people as they came in? - -Mr. CURRY. On a particular incident that had occurred previous to this, -such as the school integration, we had a plane to fall there one time -and we have a regular set up for disaster, whereby the press identify -themselves in order to get into a certain area, and their credentials -were being checked. - -Now, I have heard it said, not to my knowledge can I tell you this, -that Jack Ruby at one time or sometime during these preceding days, had -been seen there and apparently had some press credentials but I was -never able to establish that. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have checked into it? - -Mr. CURRY. I have inquired into it or had it inquired into. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you find out in that regard? - -Mr. CURRY. I couldn't find out where he had received press credentials -from anybody. - -Representative FORD. Were any press credentials found in his effects? - -Mr. CURRY. No; not to my knowledge. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you were having the difficulty with the media that you -have described, did you do anything about adding additional guards or -anything about additional security? - -Mr. CURRY. No; we had two men, two uniformed officers right at the -homicide door to keep anyone from going in there. - -As I recall, there was a sergeant, and a couple of reserve officers -at the public elevators here, and there were a couple of reservists -at this end of the hall to keep them from overrunning into the -administrative offices. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 701, Mr. Chairman. - -Mr. DULLES. Is that the chart? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted. This is a chart of the third floor. - -Mr. CURRY. Of the police and courts building. - -Mr. DULLES. What is the other word? - -Mr. CURRY. Police and courts building. - -Mr. DULLES. It will be accepted. - -(The chart referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 701 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you done anything to change your procedures in -regard to security or how you would handle prisoners in light of this -difficulty you had with the media? - -Mr. CURRY. The city manager and I have discussed the possibility that -we are going to in the near future build a new police building. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who is the city manager? - -Mr. CURRY. Elgin Crull. He made this statement that when and if we -build another building, it will be so designed that the prisoners will -not have to be brought through where the general public are permitted -or where the press would be permitted. That there will be two sets of -halls or hallways where they will be brought down in the rear hallways -and admitted into the offices for interrogation. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that? - -Mr. CURRY. I heartily agreed with him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you made any other plans for change of security? - -Mr. CURRY. I have talked to my staff and said if we were ever faced -with a thing of such magnitude again that we would not permit the -press to come into the building. We would designate a place outside -for them and we would just have to take the heat that was given to us -by the press for not permitting them in there, but in view of what had -happened that we would never permit this to occur again. - -That we would permit them to have representatives but they would -be required to choose their representatives to be present, say, in -these hallways or inside the buildings, and the rest of them would be -excluded. - -And regardless of how they treated us in the press for this decision, -that is the way it would be in the future. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about appearing on television during -this time? - -Mr. CURRY. They had these cameras set up in the hallway, if I can have -the exhibit I will show it to you. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. That is Exhibit 701. - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. They had cameras set up right here, two or three -cameras. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you marked that with the word "cameras"? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. And on an occasion or two as I was walking from the -homicide office back to my office they would stop me here and try to -interrogate me or interview me and they would have the cameras turned -on me. - -Mr. RANKIN. What would you do? - -Mr. CURRY. They would besiege me with questions about how the -investigation was proceeding, and I would on occasion or two I told -them I thought it was proceeding very well, that we were obtaining good -evidence to substantiate our suspicions, that this was the man that was -guilty of the assassination. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them what evidence you had? - -Mr. CURRY. I told them on one occasion we had a rifle that had been -partially identified by his, as belonging to him. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you do that? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe that was on Saturday, I think. - -Mr. RANKIN. About what time of the day? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't recall exactly. I think it was in the afternoon. It -might have been Friday night. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them about any other evidence that you had? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't recall, sir, whether I did or not. There was so much -confusion that I can't recall exactly the times and exactly what was -said. I think this is documented, perhaps. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where? - -Mr. CURRY. On the TV film. - -Mr. RANKIN. I see. Did you give out any interviews to the newspapers? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't recall giving any interviews to newspapers. - -Mr. RANKIN. Any news releases? - -Mr. CURRY. Not that I recall. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you recall having told them that you had sent a radio -order out to surround the book depository? - -Mr. CURRY. I didn't do that, sir. That was one of my inspectors, I -believe that gave that order. I was riding in the Presidential parade -and approximately a hundred feet, I guess, ahead of the President's -car, and when we heard this first report, I couldn't tell exactly where -it was coming from. - -Representative FORD. What report are you talking about now? - -Mr. CURRY. A sharp report as a firecracker or as it was it was the -report of this rifle. - -We were just approaching an underpass, and there were some people -around on each side of the underpass, up in the railroad yards, and -I thought at first that perhaps this was a railroad torpedo, it was a -sharp crack. - -Inspector--no, it wasn't Inspector, it was Lawson of the Secret Service -and Mr. Sorrels of the Dallas office of the Secret Service, and Sheriff -Bill Decker and myself were in this car. - -Mr. DULLES. I may be anticipating. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is all right, go right ahead. - -Mr. CURRY. I said what was that, was that a firecracker, or someone -said this. I don't recall whether it was me or someone else, and from -the report I couldn't tell whether it was coming from the railroad yard -or whether it was coming from behind but I said over the radio, I said, -"Get someone up in the railroad yard and check." - -And then about this time. I believe it was motorcycle Officer Chaney -rode up beside of me and looking back in the rear view mirror I could -see some commotion in the President's car and after this there had been -two more reports, but these other two reports I could tell were coming -behind instead of from the railroad yards. - -Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by reports? - -Mr. CURRY. Sharp reports as a rifle or a firecracker, and looking in -the rear view mirror then I could see some commotion in President -Kennedy's car. - -Mr. RANKIN. You could distinctly hear and tell that the two later -reports were from behind? - -Mr. CURRY. Behind. - -Mr. RANKIN. Rather than front? - -Mr. CURRY. That is right. - -Mr. RANKIN. You weren't sure whether the first one was from behind or -in front? - -Mr. CURRY. I couldn't tell because perhaps of the echo or the---- - -Representative FORD. Where were you sitting in the car, sir? - -Mr. CURRY. I was driving. - -Representative FORD. You were driving? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. When you heard the first report, did you grab a -communications set and give this order? - -Mr. CURRY. Almost immediately. - -Representative FORD. What was the order that you gave? - -Mr. CURRY. As I recall it, "Get someone up in the railroad yard to -check those people." There was already an officer up there. - -Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that? - -Mr. CURRY. They assigned officers to every overpass. - -We went with the Secret Service, Batchelor and Chief Lunday had went -over this route with Secret Service agents Lawson and Sorrels and they -had run the route 2 or 3 days prior to this and pointed out every place -where they wanted security officers, and we placed them there where -they asked for them. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you see an officer there when you looked up? - -Mr. CURRY. I couldn't recognize him, but I could see an officer whoever -it was. - -Representative FORD. Did you get this order over the PA system before -the second and third shots? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't believe so, I am not sure. I am not positive. -Because they were in pretty rapid succession. But after I noticed some -commotion in the President's car and a motorcycle officer ran up aside -of me and I asked him what had happened and he said shots had been -fired, and I said, "Has the President been hit or has the President's -party been hit? - -And he said, "I am sure they have." - -I said, "Take us to the hospital immediately," and I got on the -radio and I told them to notify Parkland Hospital to stand by for an -emergency, and this is approximately, I would say, perhaps a couple of -miles or so to Parkland Hospital from this, and we went to Parkland and -I notified them to have them to be standing by for an emergency, and we -went out there under siren escort and went into the emergency entrance. - -As I recall, I got out of the car and rushed to the emergency entrance -and told them to bring the stretchers out, and they loaded the -President, President Kennedy and Governor Connally onto stretchers and -took them into the hospital. - -Mrs. Kennedy, I went into the hospital, and I know she was outside -the door of where they were working with the President, and someone -suggested to her that she sit down and she was very calm, and she said, -"I am all right. Some of your people need to sit down more than I do." - -But everyone was very concerned. I remained around the hospital. I was -contacted by some of the special sergeants who asked me to stand by in -my car and get another car and take the President, then Vice President -Johnson to Love Field. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about that, haven't you? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; I have told you about that. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you told us you attended the swearing in of President -Johnson? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; I did. - -Mr. RANKIN. And that you waited until the plane left and then you came -back? - -Mr. CURRY. To my offices. - -Mr. RANKIN. And Judge Hughes left at the same time? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, did you do anything about the assassination after this -or at some time? - -Mr. CURRY. No. I left this to be handled by Captain Fritz who is in -charge of all homicide investigations. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether anything was done, did you make inquiry? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; he told me they were interrogating him, Oswald about -the assassination and trying to check on the movements of Oswald, and -they obtained, I understand, some search warrants to go out and search, -they found out where he had been staying. - -Mr. RANKIN. What about the building immediately after the occasion? - -Mr. CURRY. It was sealed off, Inspector Sawyer who is a uniformed -police inspector, I think was the first ranking officer to the School -Depository Building. He would have had to come perhaps 10 blocks. I -believe he told me that he was about at Akard and Maine when this came -on the air that we had had some trouble down there. - -Mr. RANKIN. You say you imagine. Is this something that they reported -to you? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. He told me later that he did immediately go to the -scene of the Texas--of where the shots were fired from. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he tell you he did then? - -Mr. CURRY. He took charge of the investigation. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he do about the building? - -Mr. CURRY. He had it sealed off. This perhaps would have been perhaps, -5, 8, 10 minutes after the original---- - -Mr. RANKIN. About what time? - -Mr. CURRY. I would say perhaps 12:40. - -Mr. RANKIN. And was that before or after a description of Lee Oswald -was put on the radio? - -Mr. CURRY.I couldn't say whether it was before or after. - -Mr. RANKIN. What else happened? - -Mr. CURRY. I think he perhaps was the one who gave that description, I -am not sure. - -A deputy chief of services who was in the pilot car ahead of us, was at -Love Field, and he had some more Secret Service men with him, I believe. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who is that? - -Mr. CURRY. George Lumpkin. George L. Lumpkin. He asked me at the -hospital if I didn't want him to go back to the Texas School Book -Depository and assist in the search of the building and I told him yes, -and he did go back, and took over on the search of the building then. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he report to you later what he did about that? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, he did. He told me that he had sealed it off and he -appointed two search teams to search the building from top to bottom, -starting at the bottom and going to the top and starting at the top and -going to the bottom. - -Mr. McCLOY. Who was this man? - -Mr. CURRY. George L. Lumpkin. - -Mr. McCLOY. Secret Service? - -Mr. CURRY. No. - -Mr. McCLOY. On your staff? - -Mr. CURRY. No; he is a police officer. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was he an assistant chief? - -Mr. CURRY. He is not an assistant chief. Each of the divisions have a -deputy chief in charge of them. I have one assistant chief and four -deputy chiefs. - -Mr. RANKIN. And this was a deputy chief? - -Mr. CURRY. A deputy chief; yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Under your system the highest civil service status is -inspector, is it? - -Mr. CURRY. That is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. And the other officers are appointed? - -Mr. CURRY. Appointed, yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. By you? - -Mr. CURRY. By me, yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, these two teams that you referred to that the deputy -chief appointed to search the building, do you know how many officers -were in those teams? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether the search was made? - -Mr. CURRY. They reported to me that it was made, yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what else happened in regard to the building or -the search for the assassin? - -Mr. CURRY. After it was searched I understand it was sealed off and -they were asked not to let anybody come or go from the building until -further orders. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened after that? - -Mr. DULLES. Could I inquire there. I thought it was sealed off previous -to the search according to your previous testimony. - -Mr. CURRY. It was. But after they searched it and all of the -investigators left there, they asked Mr. Truly, I believe, the building -manager, not to let anybody come and go. - -Mr. DULLES. Was that supplemented, though, by the police? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; I believe we had officers there. - -Mr. DULLES. Then there were in a way two sealings off. One that you -gave the order was given 8 or 10 minutes---- - -Mr. CURRY. Almost immediately, yes. - -Mr. DULLES. After the assassination, and then the other one was after -this search had been made. - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. There is one element I am not clear on, I may be -anticipating, Mr. Rankin. But I believe we have had some testimony -heretofore, that Mr.--an officer went in with Mr. Truly into the -building. - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. And started to go upstairs, and they ran into Oswald on the -second floor. Was that before the inspector got there? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I am sure it was, because this officer was there -at the scene. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you remember that officer's name? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I don't. It is in the record. - -Mr. BELIN. It is officer M. L. Baker. He was in the motorcade. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did M. L. Baker purport to seal off the building? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; he didn't. The first officers in there were rushing -up to the upper floors. - -Mr. McCLOY. The first man who sealed the building was---- - -Mr. CURRY. I believe will be Inspector Sawyer. - -Mr. McCLOY. Inspector Sawyer? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe he would be the first to issue orders. I could be -mistaken on that but as I recall he was the first officer. - -Mr. DULLES. You did not give those orders yourself? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; not myself. - -Representative FORD. How many men participated in the search of the -building? - -Mr. CURRY. I would just have to guess but I would suggest probably 20 -people. - -Representative FORD. Did you check with those who went through this -process? - -Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't check with each individual officer. - -Representative FORD. Did you get a report? - -Mr. CURRY. I got a report from Inspector Sawyer, and also from Chief -Lumpkin as to the manner in which it was searched. - -Representative FORD. How long did it take them, do you have any idea? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe they were, perhaps, maybe a couple of hours -altogether, searching that building. - -Representative FORD. Did they give you an oral or written report on -what they found or didn't find? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe there were some written reports made. I don't -recall now. - -Representative FORD. If there are written reports could we have them? - -Mr. CURRY. I think---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Representative FORD. Back on the record. - -Are you familiar with any written report, Chief, on what transpired -during the search of the building? - -Mr. CURRY. Only what Deputy Chief Lumpkin in his report here in a -chronological report that we made, and you have this, as best we could, -after this occurred, the deputy chiefs and myself all sat down together -went over this from the time we received notice that the President -would visit Dallas until the shooting of Oswald, and step by step we -tried to go through this as to what we did, and this is what we call a -chronological report. - -Representative FORD. If there is a report in anybody's files in the -Dallas Police department on what transpired during this investigation -of the building, there would be no reason why that report couldn't be -made available? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; if we have one it certainly would be made available. - -Representative FORD. Will you check the files of the department and -if there is a report available will you submit it to the Commission, -please? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I was trying to. - -Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, I think that your chronological report does -not purport to go into the detail of how the search was made and so -forth. - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; it just states in here how Chief Lumpkin, how he -formed the search and it tells something about while he was there. - -Mr. McCLOY. The chronological report part of our record yet? - -Mr. BELIN. We have a chronological report, yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. Is this the same one as the Chief is looking at? - -Mr. RANKIN. We will check that. - -Mr. DULLES. It is not yet an exhibit, is it? - -Mr. RANKIN. No; we have, and we were discussing yesterday, a number of -items in the form of affidavits and other evidence that we will have -to introduce into the record of the Commission before we get through -which has been examined by the staff and in some cases called to the -Commission's attention but is not formally a matter of record and we -will have to complete that before we can complete our report. - -Mr. McCLOY. Is that the same chronological report that the Chief has? - -Mr. CURRY. If it isn't I can leave you these copies but they were -submitted to Attorney General Carr, two copies. This is what is in -this report. "Upon arrival,"--this is Chief Lumpkin--"Upon arrival -at the Texas School Book Depository we found Inspector Sawyer was in -front of the building and with the assistance of other officers was -in the process of detaining anyone or everyone who had any knowledge -whatsoever of the shooting. This was discussed with Sawyer. We decided -that we would get all persons in that category away from the crowd by -sending them to Sheriff Decker's office"--which is about a half block -from here--"at Main and Houston to be held for further interrogation. -Homicide Detective Turner was sent to the sheriff's office to represent -the homicide bureau of our department and interrogating these -witnesses." - -Mr. DULLES. That is where the sheriff's office was? - -Mr. CURRY. Main and Houston, it runs. - -"Detective Senkel was released back to Captain Fritz to assist in -the investigation. He had come down. Sawyer had placed guards on the -building to prevent anyone from going or coming. Sawyer organized -a detail to check all persons and automobiles on the parking lot -surrounding the Texas School Book Depository Building, taking their -names, telephone numbers, addresses, places of employment, and later on -in the afternoon those vehicles that were not taken out were checked by -license number. Several of the U.S. Alcohol Tax units assisted in the -search. - -"At that time Lumpkin entered the building and instructed that it be -completely sealed off and that no one be allowed to leave or enter." - -This probably was some, I would say, some 30 or 40 minutes after the -original shots were fired. He had gone on to Parkland Hospital to me -and I told him there to return to assist in the handling of this matter. - -Mr. McCLOY. In your judgment is that the first sealing off of the -building that took place? - -Mr. CURRY. No; I think Inspector Sawyer, when he arrived he took some -steps to seal off the building. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have already testified about Inspector Sawyer and you -said you thought he was about 10 or 12 blocks away. - -Mr. CURRY. I believe so. I believe he was about at Main and Akard -Streets which would be about 10 blocks away when he heard of this -incident occurring and he immediately went down there. - -Mr. DULLES. And the first order to seal off was given some 10 minutes, -I think you testified, in that neighborhood? - -Mr. CURRY. To the best of my knowledge. - -Mr. DULLES. After the assassination? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't know just what he did about sealing the building, -did you? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I don't. I imagine he placed men on the front and -back doors and asked them not to let anyone come or go without finding -out who they were. - -Mr. DULLES. Who would know that fact as to when that order was given, -that would be Sawyer? - -Mr. RANKIN. Officer Sawyer would be the one who would really know that -fact? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe so. - -Mr. RANKIN. And whatever he would say about it you think would be -correct? - -Mr. CURRY. I do. Because we already have a deposition from him -that tells about the sealing of the building, and it was not done -immediately when he came. - -Representative FORD. Would it be appropriate at this time to put that -deposition in the record at this point? - -Mr. RANKIN. I wonder if it would be satisfactory to the Commission, in -view of the inquiry by Commissioner Ford, if we would, the staff would, -tender at this point the portion of the deposition that relates to how -the building was sealed, and then have a reference to this point in the -place where it is offered in evidence in regular course. - -Representative FORD. That would be satisfactory to me as far as the -particular point we are discussing at the moment. - -Mr. RANKIN. We will do that then. - -Now, Chief, would you tell us the next thing that you know of that -happened about the search for the assassin, after the search of the -depository building that you described? - -Mr. CURRY. The next thing I can tell you about, I remained out, as I -say, at Love Field until the planes departed. I went back to the office. - -Mr. DULLES. At about what time would you place that? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe it was about 4 o'clock I believe when I returned -to the office. - -Mr. DULLES. It was 4 o'clock when you returned to the office from Love -Field? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe so, I am not positive. - -When I arrived they were in the process of, Captain Fritz and his men, -were in the process of investigating this murder of Tippit and also the -assassination of the President. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you make an inquiry in regard to the progress? - -Mr. CURRY. I think I did. I asked him how he was coming along and he -said they were making good progress. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened after that? - -Mr. CURRY. They had had a couple of showups with Oswald so witnesses -could attempt to identify him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether they had gone out to Beckley Street to -the place where he had stayed? - -Mr. CURRY. I understood they had and I understood they went back the -next day. - -Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by a showup? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, it is customary when you have suspects in a crime -where you have witnesses, that they be taken into a room and allowed, -the witnesses, to observe them in the presence of other people. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have a room for this purpose? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; we do. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe briefly what that room is like? - -Mr. CURRY. It is a police assemblyroom where we hold our regular -rollcalls. They have a stage whereby prisoners are brought up on this -stage. - -Mr. RANKIN. How large is the room? - -Mr. CURRY. The room, I would say, is perhaps 50 feet long and 20 feet -wide. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who was allowed in the room at the time of this showup? - -Mr. CURRY. Presumably only the news media and police officers. I have -been told that Jack Ruby was seen in this showuproom also. - -Mr. RANKIN. About what time of the day was that? - -Mr. CURRY. As I recall, this was fairly late Friday night, I believe. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who was there to try to identify Lee Oswald? - -Mr. CURRY. No, I don't. The news media, a number of them, had continued -to say, "Let us see him. What are you doing to him? How does he look?" - -I think one broadcaster that I had heard or someone had told me about, -said that Lee Harvey Oswald is in custody of the police department, and -that something about he looked all right when he went in there, they -wouldn't guarantee how he would look after he had been in custody of -the Dallas police for a couple of hours, which intimated to me that -when I heard this that they thought we were mistreating the prisoner. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about that? - -Mr. CURRY. I offered then at that time--they wanted to see him and they -wanted to know why they couldn't see him and I said we had no objection -to anybody seeing him. - -And when he was being moved down the hall to go back up in the jail -they would crowd on him and we just had to surround him by officers to -get to take him to the jail elevator to take him back upstairs, to let -him rest from the interrogation. - -Mr. RANKIN. And this showup, how many people attended? - -Mr. CURRY. I would think perhaps 75 people. I am just making an -estimate. I told them if they would not try to overrun the prisoner and -not try to interrogate him we would bring him to the showup room. There -was--this, thinking also that these newspaper people had been all over -Love Field, and had been down at the assassination scene, and we didn't -know but what some of them might recognize him as being present, they -might have seen him around some of these places. - -Now, Mr. Wade, the district attorney, was present, at this time and his -assistant was present, and as I recall, I asked Mr. Wade, I said, "Do -you think this will be all right?" And he said, "I don't see anything -wrong with it." - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you find out where Jack Ruby was during this showup? - -Mr. CURRY. I didn't know Jack Ruby. Actually the first time I saw Jack -Ruby to know Jack Ruby was in a bond hearing or I believe it was a bond -hearing, and I recognized him sitting at counsel's table. - -The impression has been given that a great many of the Dallas Police -Department knew Jack Ruby. - -Mr. RANKIN. What is the fact in that regard? - -Mr. CURRY. The fact of that as far as I know there are a very small -percentage of the Dallas Police Department that knows Jack Ruby. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you make an inquiry to find out? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; I did, yes, sir. And so far as I know most of the men -who knew Jack Ruby are men who were assigned to the vice squad of the -police department or who had worked the radio patrol district where he -had places and in the course---- - -Mr. RANKIN. How many men would that be? - -Mr. CURRY. I am guessing, perhaps 25 men. This is merely a guess on my -part. - -Mr. RANKIN. How large is your police force? - -Mr. CURRY. Approximately 1,200. I would say 1,175 people. I would say -less, I believe less than 50 people knew him. From what I have found -out since then that he is the type that if he saw a policeman, or he -came to his place of business he would probably run up and make himself -acquainted with him. - -I also have learned since this time he tried to ingratiate himself with -any of the news media or any of the reporters who had anything to do, -he was always constantly trying to get publicity for his clubs or for -himself. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, at this showup, is there some screen between the -person in custody? - -Mr. CURRY. There is a time--there wasn't at this time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Why not? - -Mr. CURRY. No particular reason. They just, a lot of the news media say -they didn't think they could see him up there or couldn't get pictures -of him up there and we brought him in there in front of the screen -and kept him there as I recall only about 4 or 5 minutes and shoving -up close to him and taking shots of him and took him upstairs and I -believe the district attorney and his assistant stayed down and perhaps -talked to the news media for several minutes. - -But we took Harvey Oswald back upstairs and I think I went back to my -office. - -Mr. DULLES. This was the evening of Friday, was it not? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe so, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you say Ruby was present that evening? - -Mr. CURRY. I have understood he was. But to my own knowledge, I -wouldn't have known him because I didn't know him. - -Mr. McCLOY. You said you first saw Ruby when? - -Mr. CURRY. In a trial. I believe it was for a bond hearing where they -were attempting to get bond for him. And I saw him sitting at a counsel -table and recognized him from pictures I had seen of him in the paper. - -Mr. DULLES. This is some time before the assassination? - -Mr. McCLOY. This is the trial incident to the trial of Ruby, as I -understand it? - -Mr. DULLES. You had not seen him before? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. It was a bond hearing incident to the trial? - -Mr. CURRY. If I had seen him I wouldn't have known him. - -Mr. McCLOY. I don't want to again interrupt but I don't know whether -we have passed by all of the questions you wanted to ask the chief in -regard to the motorcade and the time of the assassination. - -I thought maybe we might ask him whether or what was his estimate of -the speed of the motorcade, for example. - -Mr. RANKIN. We haven't covered that period because of the way we -started, and I think we could go back, Chief, if you will, to, say, at -the point the motorcade left Main Street and started down Houston, and -then down Elm up to the time of the shots. - -Will you describe that, where you and what the motorcade consisted of? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I was--there was a pilot car ahead of us with -Deputy Chief Lumpkin that was perhaps two or three blocks ahead of us -and had been preceding us all the way from Love Field to see that the -route was open and reporting back by radio to us, and this was for the -purpose, if we had any wrecks or congestion to where it looked like -the motorcade could be stopped that we could change our routes and get -around them and also to let us know how the crowd was. - -He had been preceding us all this way. There has been some question as -to why this motorcade would not proceed on down Main Street. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you explain that to the Commission? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I can. I will make another diagram here, if you -wish me to. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. McCloy asked about whether the chronological report -that Chief Curry was examining during part of his testimony was -available to the Commission. We have now searched the Commission files -and we find that a copy of that exact report has been available to the -Commission and we have it here. It is a Commission document---- - -Mr. REDLICH. It is in Commission Document 81.1. - -Representative FORD. Will this report be made a part of the record? - -Mr. RANKIN. We haven't decided that question but we will examine it and -report to the Commission later if it is not made a part of the record, -why we recommend that it not be. It may very well be amongst the -documents that would be made part of the record in regular course when -we examine all of the material for that purpose. Is that a satisfactory -handling of it? - -Representative FORD. I think it is. I haven't had an opportunity to -examine it. But if it is a part of the record, I suspect it ought to -be made a part at this point since it has been referred to by the -testimony of the chief. But it is something that could be discussed -later, and if it should be, it could be put into the record at this -point. - -Mr. RANKIN. I would like to ask leave of the Chairman then to examine -it with greater care after the testimony of the chief is taken and be -able to make it a part of the record at this point unless I report back -to the Commission that for some reason it would not be desirable. - -Mr. DULLES. That would be we would proceed in regard to this -chronological report we would proceed in the same way as we have -suggested we would with regard to the other depositions that were taken -in Dallas. - -Mr. RANKIN. Except my offer before, Mr. Chairman, was that the portion -of the deposition that would relate to the matters described, that is -the sealing of the building, would, in fact, be incorporated into this -record at that point. And that the balance of it would be offered at -some later date as a part of the record of the Commission. - -Here I wanted to reserve the question as to whether it should be a part -of the record because of my desire first to examine it in detail and -see if there is any reason why it should not and then report back to -the Commission. - -Mr. DULLES. You will report back to the Commission. It will not be -excluded unless you so report to the Commission. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. And the reason therefor? - -Mr. CURRY. This sketch. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark that sketch you have just made Exhibit 702 -please, and 703? - -(Commission Exhibits Nos. 702 and 703 were marked for identification.) - -Mr. CURRY. In the diagram, 702, Exhibit 702, the motorcade was going -west on Main Street, there is a triple underpass there. There are three -streets and they converge into one wide street down through a triple -underpass, what we call a triple underpass. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where you are talking about the underpass is that underpass -on Main Street? - -Mr. CURRY. It is just west of Houston Street and runs parallel -with Houston Street. And Main Street--now Houston Street runs in a -north-south direction, Main Street, Elm Street, and Commerce Street -the three principal streets that empty into this triple underpass are -east-west, Elm Street is a one-way street west, Commerce is one-way -east, Main Street is a two-way street going east and west. We had---- - -Mr. RANKIN. You were going to explain why you couldn't continue right -down Main. - -Mr. CURRY. We would--we left the parade route up to the host committee. -They chose the route, asking that we go down Main Street, and then -we would go on to what is known as the triple, through the triple -underpass onto Stemmons Expressway. It was necessary to get on this -expressway to get to the Trade Mart, the building where the dinner or -luncheon would be held. - -But had we proceeded on down Main Street, we could not have gotten -onto Stemmons Expressway unless we had had public works to come in and -remove some curbing and build some barricades over it. - -So, in talking with the Secret Service people they suggested we come -to Main Street to Elm Street, turn one block north and turn back west -and go through the triple underpass on the Elm Street side and at this -place Elm Street is two-way. - -So that was the reason that it was necessary to take this motorcade one -block north, and then turn west again in order that we could get on -the triple, through the triple underpass onto the Stemmons Expressway -without coming down and removing some curbing or building over the -curbing and disturbing the regular flow of traffic. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there any consideration given prior to establishing the -parade route to removing this curbing and going---- - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; nothing was said about it at all. In fact, when -they were choosing the routes for this parade, we left it entirely up -to the host committee and to the Secret Service. - -They asked us what we thought about certain routes. We told them what -we thought would be the most direct routes, and they chose to come -through the downtown area, I think for the purpose they wanted the -President to see as much of the people as possible and wanted the -people to have an opportunity to see him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Going to the Trade Mart building would be assumed that you -would go by the Texas Depository Building? - -Mr. CURRY. If we went on Stemmons Expressway and that is the way -they wanted to go. The only other way we could have gone. We could -have continued down Main Street passed through the underpass about a -block past there to Industrial Boulevard and then we would have gone -Industrial Boulevard and made an entrance from the Trade Mart, from the -north side of the Trade Mart there. But it was decided with the Secret -Service people that we would go Main to Houston, Houston to Elm, Elm -through to triple underpass onto the expressway and the expressway to -the Trade Mart where they would come off and had parking facilities -reserved and had a security setup. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe the cars of the---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Just before that, how far before November 22 was that route -decided on? - -Mr. CURRY. Approximately 2 days or so, I believe. That is in this -chronological record. - -Mr. DULLES. When was this route published? - -Mr. McCLOY. That route was published. - -Mr. CURRY. It was published perhaps 2 days before, a day or two before. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is the Elm Street route a shorter route than to go by -Industrial Boulevard? - -Mr. CURRY. It's a more scenic route. The Stemmons Expressway was and -it was easier to travel, traffic is easier to control on it, it is -a 10-lane highway, and the Industrial Highway is heavily traveled -by commercial vehicles and goes through a commercial section of the -industrial area. And there was a more scenic route and traffic was -more--a freer flow of traffic anyway. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you involved in the discussion about the choice of -route? - -Mr. CURRY. Not particularly. Chief Batchelor, my assistant chief, and -Chief Lunday. I discussed this some with the Secret Service Agent -Sorrels, and Lawson in a staff meeting at city hall. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was that discussion? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, we, when I say we, I mean my staff and I, we told them -what we thought would be the most direct route. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say that would have been? - -Mr. CURRY. It would have been to come into Lemmon Avenue, to Central -Expressway if they were coming through town and over that route. - -Now, if they were going directly to the Trade Mart it would have been -to come in Lemmon to Inwood Road and down Inwood to Hines, and Hines -to Industrial and Industrial into--but this would not have taken them -through the downtown area. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then if they were going to go through the downtown area -what did you say about the route that should be taken for that? - -Mr. CURRY. This was probably the most direct route that they chose -except they could have come in what we term the Central Expressway to -Main Street, and then west on Main Street right down the route that was -taken. - -They chose rather to come in on Lemmon Avenue to Turtle Creek, and -here again this is a more scenic route and more people would have -an opportunity to see the motorcade. And followed Turtle Creek into -Cedar Springs, to Harwood and south on Harwood to Main Street, west on -Main to Houston, north on Houston to Elm and west on Elm to Stemmons -Expressway. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you described the cars in the motorcade? Their -positions? - -Mr. CURRY. I have them listed here, I couldn't tell you other than the -front part of the motorcade but they are in this report. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Tell us the front part that you recall. - -Mr. CURRY. I had Deputy Chief Lumpkin, and he had two Secret Service -men with him, I believe, out of Washington, and a Colonel Wiedemeyer -who is the East Texas Section Commander of the Army Reserve in the -area, he was with him. They were out about, they were supposed to stay -about a quarter of a mile ahead of us and I was in the lead car. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who was with you? - -Mr. CURRY. Inspector, not inspector, but Sheriff Bill Decker, Sorrels -of the Secret Service, and Mr. Lawson, I believe he was out of the -Washington office of the Secret Service. And immediately behind us then -was the President's car. - -Mr. RANKIN. You were driving your car? - -Mr. CURRY. I was driving my car. - -Mr. RANKIN. You had radio communication in that? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; I had radio communication with my motorcycle officers, -with my downtown office, and Secret Service had a portable radio that -they had radio contact with their people. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Now, what was in the next car. - -Mr. CURRY. The President's party was in that car. Then following him -was the Secret Service vehicle and then I understand was the Vice -President's car, and then behind him was a Secret Service car. And then -they had cars lined up as listed in this report here, how they were -lined up after that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, after you turned the corner off of Main going onto -Houston, will you describe what happened as you recall it? - -Mr. CURRY. Nothing unusual occurred. We were, I would say traveling -perhaps 10 miles an hour, would be the ordinary speed to make a turn, -and probably was making that speed after we made a turn from north, -going north on Houston to west on Elm Street, and---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you slow down for the turn onto Elm? - -Mr. CURRY. Perhaps just a little. I would say we were probably going -8 to 10 miles an hour. And as we were moving downward the triple -underpass which is about an ordinary block we were beginning to pick up -a little speed. - -Mr. RANKIN. How much of a descent is there between where the Depository -Building is and the place in the underpass? - -Mr. CURRY. It is a pretty good little drop. Within the space of a block -it drops down enough to go under an underpass. - -Mr. RANKIN. It would be more than the height of a car? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; two heights. - -Mr. RANKIN. Two heights. - -Mr. CURRY. I think it is a 13- or 14-foot clearance. - -Mr. RANKIN. Trucks could get under that? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened? - -Mr. CURRY. Then we heard this report. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, how far along from the corner of Elm and Houston were -you at the time of that? - -Mr. CURRY. I think we were perhaps a couple of hundred feet or so. - -Mr. RANKIN. How fast were you going then? - -Mr. CURRY. I think we were going between 10 or 12 miles an hour, maybe -up to 15 miles an hour. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened? - -Mr. CURRY. We heard this report, and then all of the tension that -followed I have told you. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. What was the distance between your car and the President's -car approximately? - -Mr. CURRY. Mr. Dulles, I believe to the best of my knowledge it would -have been 100, 125 feet. - -Mr. DULLES. Between your car and the President's car? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, we stayed pretty close to them. In the planning of -this motorcade, we had had more motorcycles lined up to be with the -President's car, but the Secret Service didn't want that many. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did they tell you why? - -Mr. CURRY. We actually had two on each side but we wanted four on each -side and they asked us to drop out some of them and back down the -motorcade, along the motorcade, which we did. - -Mr. RANKIN. How many motorcycles did you have? - -Mr. CURRY. I think we had four on each side of him. - -Mr. RANKIN. How many did you want to have? - -Mr. CURRY. We actually had two on each side side but we wanted four on -each side and they asked us to drop out some of them and back down the -motorcade, along the motorcade, which we did. - -Mr. RANKIN. So that you in fact only had two on each side of his car? - -Mr. CURRY. Two on each side and they asked them to remain at the rear -fender so if the crowd moved in on him they could move in to protect -him from the crowd. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who asked him to stay at the rear fender? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe Mr. Lawson. - -Mr. RANKIN. The Secret Service man? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. Also we had planned to have Captain Fritz and some -of his homicide detectives immediately following the President's car -which we have in the past, we have always done this. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, would that be between the President's car and the -Secret Service? - -Mr. CURRY. And the Secret Service. We have in past done this. We have -been immediately behind the President's car. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you propose that to someone? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who did you propose it to? - -Mr. CURRY. To Mr. Lawson and Mr. Sellers. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did they say about that? - -Mr. CURRY. They didn't want it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did they tell you why? - -Mr. CURRY. They said the Secret Service would be there. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then? - -Mr. CURRY. They said we can put this vehicle in between Captain Fritz -and his detectives immediately at the end of the motorcade. They said, -"No, we want a white or marked car there bringing up the rear," so -Fritz and his men were not in the motorcade. - -Mr. DULLES. What do you mean in the past when there have been previous -Presidents visiting Dallas or other dignitaries? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; that is right; other dignitaries. Yes; our thinking -along this was that in the past there have been this. Captain Fritz, -he is a very experienced homicide man so are his detectives. They know -the city very well. They have been there very, Captain Fritz to my -knowledge, over 40 years. - -It is customary that they in trying to protect a person if they are -in the immediate vicinity, and Captain Fritz told me later, he said, -"I believe that had we been there we might possibly have got that man -before he got out of that building or we would have maybe had the -opportunity of firing at him while he was still firing" because they -were equipped, would have been equipped with high-powered rifles and -machineguns, submachine guns. - -Representative FORD. Where were they instead of being at the motorcade. - -Mr. CURRY. Actually they were not in the motorcade at all. They -followed up the motorcade. - -Representative FORD. Were they in a car following up the motorcade? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; they were in a car. - -Representative FORD. How far away would they have been? - -Mr. CURRY. I think they would have been at the rear, I believe. - -Representative FORD. Captain Fritz is going to be here later. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Representative FORD. And fill in what he did at that time? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. CURRY. But we tried to do what the Secret Service asked us to do, -and we didn't try to override them because we didn't feel it was our -responsibility, that it was their responsibility to tell us what they -wanted and we would try to provide it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you refuse to do anything that they asked you to do? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; not to my knowledge we don't--we didn't refuse them -to do anything. - -Mr. DULLES. You considered them to be the boss in this particular -situation? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; the Secret Service; yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know or can you tell us approximately where the -President's car was at the time of the first shot that you heard? - -Mr. CURRY. To the best of my knowledge, I would say it was -approximately halfway between Houston Street and the underpass, which -would be, I would say probably 125-150 feet west of Houston Street. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us the approximate location of where it was -when you heard the second shot? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, it would have been just a few feet further because -these shots were in fairly rapid succession. - -Mr. RANKIN. How many feet do you mean? - -Mr. CURRY. I would say perhaps, and this is just an estimate on my -part, perhaps 25 or 30 feet further along. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then at the time of the third shot? - -Mr. CURRY. A few feet further, perhaps 15-20 feet further. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have an opinion as to the time that expired between -the first shot and the third shot? - -Mr. CURRY. This is just an opinion on my part but I would think perhaps -5 or 6 seconds. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you hear any more than three shots? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. RANKIN. Are you sure of that? - -Mr. CURRY. I am positive of that. I heard three shots. I will never -forget it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have something, Mr. McCloy? - -Mr. McCLOY. I was going to ask you, chief, as you were approaching the -underpass you were looking toward the underpass presumably? - -Mr. CURRY. That is right. - -Mr. McCLOY. Was the underpass bare of people or were there people on it? - -Mr. CURRY. No; I could see some people on each side but not immediately -over, but there were some people up in the railroad yard. I also could -see an officer up there. I don't know who the officer was. - -Mr. McCLOY. You could recognize an officer on the top of the underpass? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; their instructions had been to place officers on every -overpass and in every underpass. - -Mr. McCLOY. How close were you then to the underpass when you first -heard that shot? - -Mr. CURRY. Oh, perhaps 150 feet or 100 feet or so. - -Mr. McCLOY. So you are convinced that the shot could not come from the -overpass? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't believe it did; no, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Then---- - -Mr. CURRY. Because there didn't seem to be any commotion going on over -there. This seemed to be people that I could see, they didn't seem to -run or anything. They just seemed to be there. - -Mr. McCLOY. You spoke of the railroad yard. Just where is that railroad -yard in relation to the underpass? We will see that. - -Mr. CURRY. It is over---- - -Mr. McCLOY. It is on the other side. - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. You see these tracks. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mark that as Exhibit 703 and you can refer to. - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; here is the School Book Depository. The railroad goes -over. - -Mr. DULLES. This aerial view of the Elm Street there, isn't it of the -underpass, will be admitted as 704. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 704 was marked for identification, and received -in evidence.) - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you call that the railroad yards? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; that is true. - -Mr. McCLOY. Above the underpass? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you see a number of people in the railroad yard? - -Mr. CURRY. I would estimate maybe a half dozen. - -Mr. DULLES. They were spectators or were they workmen. They were -spectators? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; as well as I was able to tell. They might have -been workmen, too, but I presume it was people who were in the area and -as the motorcade approached they got into position where they perhaps -could have seen it. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you recognize any officer amongst them? - -Mr. CURRY. I seemed to recall seeing a uniformed police officer up -there. - -Mr. McCLOY. In the railroad yard, and there was no commotion amongst -the railroad yard people? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't believe so. - -Representative FORD. Do you know who the officer was? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; but I believe by looking at the assignments we -could determine what officer was up there. - -There is an assignment of personnel which has been submitted for the -record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mrs. RANKIN. On the record, we will supply for the purposes of this -record the name of the officer and check it with Chief Curry, who was -on the underpass or really the over part of the pass. - -Mr. CURRY. Really over. - -Mr. RANKIN. At the time of the motorcade. - -Representative FORD. Who determined there should be one, not more -officers at an overpass? - -Mr. CURRY. Deputy Chief Lunday and Assistant Chief Batchelor went over -this route with Sorrels, and I believe Lawson was with them. And they -were the ones who determined how many men would be placed at each -location. - -Mr. RANKIN. The inquiry I think particularly is did the Secret Service -decide it would be one or did you decide it would be one? - -Mr. CURRY. No; it would be the Secret Service because we just let them -tell us how many men they wanted. The only deviation we made from that -was in the security of the Trade Mart. I believe they requested 143 -men, as I recall to secure the Trade Mart, and I believe we supplied -them with 193 or 194 men, somewhat in excess of what they asked for at -this location. - -I called the State police, and they furnished a number of men, about 30 -men, and Sheriff Decker furnished about 15, and I think we furnished -from our department everybody that they asked for really, so we had a -surplus. - -Representative FORD. But the details as to how many men should be -placed where were determined by Lawson and Sorrels of the Secret -Service? - -Mr. CURRY. That is right, sir; yes, sir. - -(At this point Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. McCLOY. May I ask one question? - -As you were leading this or just ahead of the President's car, as you -came around past the School Depository Building, was there anything -that attracted your attention to the building at all as you went by? - -Mr. CURRY. Not at all. - -Mr. McCLOY. There was no movement or anything? - -Mr. CURRY. Not at all. - -Mr. McCLOY. You weren't conscious of looking up at the windows? - -Mr. CURRY. Not at all. - -Mr. McCLOY. You had Secret Service men in that car with you? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Were they inspecting the windows as they went by? - -Mr. CURRY. It seemed that Sorrels, he was looking around a whole lot -and so was Lawson. I know comments were being made along the route as -to first one thing and then another. - -Mr. DULLES. If you had had the other Car with police officers in it to -which you referred and which I gathered you recommended what would have -been the function and duties of the officers in that particular car? - -Mr. CURRY. It would have been, of course, to guard the President, but -in the event that anything happened they would have immediately dropped -out of their car with rifles and submachine guns. That was what we had -planned. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, as a part of the plans for the motorcade, was there -anything said about the inspection of buildings along the route? - -Mr. CURRY. The comment was made that in a city like this how in the -world could you inspect or put somebody in every window of every -building. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who said that? - -Mr. CURRY. This was in a discussion with the Secret Service. I don't -recall exactly who said this. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was it the Secret Service people or your people? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't know whether it was us or Secret Service. But this -was discussed. I think it was Secret Service who told us how they -always dreaded having to go through a downtown area where there were -these skyscraper buildings. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any effort that was made to search any of -the buildings? - -Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge. We did put some extra men from the -special service bureau in the downtown area to work in midblocks to -watch the crowd and they were not specifically told to watch buildings -but they were told to watch everything. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where were they located? - -Mr. CURRY. On the route down Main Street. We didn't have any between -Elm Street and the railroad yard. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you say in midblock? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; especially midblock along the route through the -downtown area. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where would the downtown area be? - -Mr. CURRY. It would be from Harwood Street down to Houston Street. - -Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, do you know whether Officers Foster and White -were on the underpass? - -Mr. CURRY. I would have to look at the assignment sheet to determine -that, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I ask at this point, unless I may be interfering with -your examination, but was it usual for the representatives of the news -media to attend showups in the police headquarters apart from this -incident? - -Mr. CURRY. It was not unusual. This was not setting a precedent. - -Mr. McCLOY. It was not unusual. - -Representative FORD. In such a showup where they are present, are they -shielded from the person brought in for identification? - -Mr. CURRY. Are they shielded from---- - -Representative FORD. From the person who is brought up for -identification? - -Mr. CURRY. Ordinarily the person who is brought up for identification -would be behind the screen, behind this silk screen. This is for the -purpose of protecting the person who is going to try to identify him -more than trying to protect the person who is being shown up because -witnesses ofttimes have a fear of facing someone that they are asked to -identify. - -For this reason this screen was provided where the prisoner could not -see out, but the people can see in. It is much like a one-way glass. - -Representative FORD. That was used in this case? - -Mr. CURRY. No; this was not used. We just brought him in front of it. - -Representative FORD. Any particular reason why he was put in front of -it? - -Mr. CURRY. They asked us if we wouldn't bring him out there, they -didn't think their cameras would show through the screen. And as I -repeated, when this was brought up, I asked Mr. Wade, the district -attorney, if he saw anything wrong with this and he said "No; I don't -see anything wrong with this," so we agreed to do this. - -Representative FORD. Who was in charge of the actual showup operation? - -Mr. CURRY. The jail personnel would have brought him down from -downstairs and brought him into the room and then removed him. - -Representative FORD. Who handled the actual process of identification -or attempted identification by various witnesses? - -Mr. CURRY. Usually Captain Fritz or some of his homicide detectives are -present. I know when they were having a showup for a little lady, I -don't know her name but she was a waitress who observed the shooting of -the officer, I just--I wasn't there during the entire showup but I was -present part of the showup and Captain Fritz was asking her to observe -these people and see if she could pick out the man she saw who shot the -officer and she didn't identify Oswald at that time. - -Representative FORD. Did you say the actual process that was--that took -place in these several showups was similar to or different from the -showups in other cases? - -Mr. CURRY. The only one where we didn't have any particular witnesses -to show him up to, but the number of the news media had asked if they -couldn't see him and it was almost impossible for all of them to see -him up in this hallway and we decided that the best thing to do, if -we were going to let them see him at all would be to take them and -get them into a room, and then there was utter confusion after we did -that because they tried to overrun him after we got him there and we -immediately removed him and took him back upstairs. - -Representative FORD. You mentioned earlier there had been some -allegations to the effect that Oswald had been badly treated. - -Mr. CURRY. There was--I didn't hear this myself but someone told me, I -don't recall who it was, that some of the news media, I understood this -was broadcast over the radio and TV. - -Representative FORD. Did you investigate that rumor? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. What did you find out? - -Mr. CURRY. I found he had not been mistreated. - -Representative FORD. You checked with all the police personnel who had -anything to do with it? - -Mr. CURRY. Everyone I knew about and the only marks on him was, that -I could see there was a slight mark on his face up here, and this was -received when he was fighting the officers in that theatre, and they -had to subdue him and in the scuffle, this episode in the theatre, he -apparently received a couple of marks on his face. - -But he didn't complain to me about it. I think he--one of the times he -was coming down the hall someone asked him what was the matter with -his eye and he said, "A cop hit me," I believe, or "A policeman hit me." - -Representative FORD. Did you ask Oswald whether he had been mistreated? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't believe I did, sir. - -Representative FORD. But you talked to Oswald on one or more occasions? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't know that I ever asked him any questions at all. -I was present during the interrogation, but he was very sullen and -arrogant and he didn't have much to say to anybody. Fritz, I think did -more talking to him than anybody else. - -Representative FORD. But not in your presence did he object to any -treatment he received from the Dallas police force? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I would like to say for the record that we are very -strict on our officers in the treatment of prisoners, and we have a -personnel section setup that any person who complains that they have -been mistreated by the police officer, a thorough investigation is -made, and if it is determined that he has been mistreated in any way, -disciplinary action is taken, and on occasion we have, not frequently, -but on occasion where we have found that this has been true we have -dismissed personnel for mistreating a prisoner, so our personnel know -positively this is not tolerated regardless of who it is. - -Mr. RANKIN. Chief, you have described a showup, and you have also -described the general practice. You have also described showups in -regard to Oswald and you said there were several of them. - -Mr. CURRY. When I said several, to the best of my knowledge there were -perhaps three altogether. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes, one you were describing when the screen was not used -was not for the purpose of identification, is that right? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; unless some of the news media had come forward and -said, "We saw that man"; you see a lot of that news media, that was -present, were with the Presidential party and there is a possibility -that some of them might have said we saw this man to leave the scene. - -Mr. RANKIN. So the principal reason was to allow the news media? - -Mr. CURRY. The principal reason was at their request that they be -allowed to see the prisoner. - -Mr. RANKIN. And he wasn't placed back of the screen at that time? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; he was not. - -Mr. RANKIN. And whatever identification there would be would be under -the hope that they might have seen him? - -Mr. CURRY. They might have seen him because a great number of the news -media were at the scene of the shooting or in the immediate area. - -Mr. RANKIN. And that is the particular showup when you learned later -Jack Ruby was supposed to have been present? - -Mr. CURRY. I was told that he was present. That someone had seen him -back in this room. He easily could have been there as far as I was -concerned because I wouldn't have known him from anyone else. - -Mr. RANKIN. At the other showups, were witnesses there to try to -identify Oswald? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, there were. - -Mr. RANKIN. How were those handled, do you know? - -Mr. CURRY. Exactly the same manner except that he was brought in -behind the screen, and was handcuffed to some police officers or other -prisoners. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who was there to try to identify him? - -Mr. CURRY. Only on one occasion. This was a little lady that was a -waitress. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Markham? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe her name was Mrs. Markham. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you believe whether she was able to identify him? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, I heard her tell Captain Fritz that was the man she saw -shoot the officer. - -Mr. RANKIN. And that was Officer Tippit? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. What kind of a reputation did Officer Tippit have with the -police force? - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question before that. Were you present -when any members of Oswald's family, his wife, his mother, saw him or -talked with him? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I was not. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether any of your officers were? - -Mr. CURRY. I understood they were brought to the third floor of the -city hall and were placed in a room, and that if any of them were -present it probably would have been Captain Fritz. - -Mr. DULLES. He would know about it? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe he would, yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what Officer Tippit's reputation was with -your police force? - -Mr. CURRY. He had a reputation of being a very fine, dedicated officer. - -Mr. RANKIN. How long had he been with you? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe he came to work for us in 1952, after he had had -service in the paratroopers, I believe, and he had made several jumps -into Europe. He was raised in a rural community, and he was very well -thought of by the people in the community where he grew up. He was a -rather quiet, serious minded young man. He seemed to be very devoted to -his family, and he was an active church man. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was his rank? - -Mr. CURRY. Patrolman. He was not a real aggressive type officer. In -fact, he seemed to be just a little bit shy, if you were to meet him, -I believe, shy, retiring type, but certainly not afraid of anything. I -think in his personnel investigation it showed that during, as he was -growing up, sometimes his shyness was mistaken for perhaps fear, but -that it only took a time or two for someone to exploit this to find out -it wasn't fear. It was merely a quiet, shy-type individual. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there any record in the police department of any -disciplinary action toward him? - -Mr. CURRY. The only disciplinary action ever taken was he was given a -day off one time because he had missed court on two occasions. - -Mr. DULLES. Missed what? - -Mr. CURRY. Missed court. - -Mr. RANKIN. He had been unable to testify or something? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; in city court they have to appear 1 day a week. -They are notified each week to appear but they are told on one day will -be their court day and if any cases coming up it would be that time. -And on two occasions he failed to appear. I think one time he forgot -it and I think another time he said he was tied up on a radio call or -something and didn't notify him and it is just a departmental policy if -you miss court twice you are given a day off for it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that the penalty that was imposed? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, it was. He took it in very good graces, he didn't feel -like he was being mistreated. - -Mr. RANKIN. That was the only disciplinary action against him? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; there was one other complaint in his file, where -he had stopped a lady and given her a ticket and also had given her, he -gave her two tickets, one for no operator's license, and after he had -issued the tickets she found her driver's license, and she called to -him across the street, and said something about she found her license -and he told her okay, show it in court, but she thought he was being -rather abrupt and discourteous to her, she felt like he should have -come back over and taken this ticket for driver's license and destroyed -it. - -Under our rules and regulations you cannot destroy a ticket; if it is -destroyed it has to be accounted in our auditor's office and that was -the only complaint in the years on the force. - -Mr. DULLES. A rumor reached me that Officer Tippit had been some way -involved in some narcotic trouble, I don't know what the foundation of -that is. Do you know anything about that at all? - -Mr. CURRY. Nothing whatsoever; no, sir. - -Representative FORD. You mean you know nothing about it or you checked -it out and there is no validity? - -Mr. CURRY. This is the first I ever heard of it that he was involved in -any narcotics. - -Representative FORD. But your records, so far as you know, would not -indicate such? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you, so far as you know, did Tippit know Ruby? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't believe he did. I am sure he didn't. He would not be -the type I think that would even have any occasion to know him because -some of the officers that we found that did know him, either worked in -the area where he had a night club or some of the officers that worked -in the vice squad who had occasion to go in and inspect these cases -or a few officers we found they went out there for social purposes, -outside their regular duty. - -Tippit, for a number of years, had been assigned out in Oak Cliff. I -don't think he had ever been assigned in an area where Jack Ruby--well -Jack Ruby did live in Oak Cliff but I am sure, to the best of my -knowledge, Tippit never had any occasion to be around Jack Ruby. - -Mr. DULLES. Was Tippit at the time he was killed on a regular assigned -assignment or was he just roving in a particular area? - -Mr. CURRY. On this particular day, now he had been assigned to Oak -Cliff for several months farther out than he was, but when this -incident occurred at the Texas School Book Depository, this is -customary policy in the police department if something happens on this -district and tying up several squads that the squads from the other -district automatically move in in a position where they can cover off -or something else might happen here, much the same as fire equipment -does, this is automatic. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you explain that further? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; say two squads were to get a call in an area, and -this area here, say they had a big fire or something, they brought two -or three squads in here from adjoining districts, then automatically -these squads out in these other areas would begin to cover off or get -in a position to where if instead of staying out here on the far side -of this district, they would perhaps move into this district right here -where they could answer here, here or over into here. This is just -automatic patrol policy. - -On this particular day, some of the squads in this Oak Cliff area -had been ordered over into the Dallas area, this Texas School Book -Depository, and some of these other outlying squads then, I think we -have this on a radio log, I don't know whether you have this or not, -were 78 or 81. - -Mr. BALL. Why don't you read it in the record, a definite order for -Tippit to come in there. - -Mr. CURRY. Right here. This would have been at approximately 12:45, -I believe. Here is the description came out at about 12:45. The -dispatcher put out a description of attention all squads. - -Mr. DULLES. What do you mean by description? - -Mr. CURRY. Of a suspect. - -Mr. DULLES. I see, description of Oswald? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. What are you reading from, Chief? - -Mr. CURRY. This is radio log record from the Dallas Police Department, -as recorded on November 22. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that from Commission Document 728? - -Mr. DULLES. I want to correct my question, it was a man seen leaving? - -Mr. CURRY. It was a description of a suspect. - -Mr. DULLES. You didn't know it was Oswald? - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what the rest of that notation is? - -Mr. CURRY. Dispatcher put out this description, "attention all squads -Elm and Houston, unknown white male person approximately 30, slender -build, height 5 feet 10, 160 pounds, reported to be armed with what is -believed to be a .30-caliber rifle. Attention all squads, the suspect -is believed to be white male 30, 5 feet 10 inches, slender build, -armed with what is thought to be a .30-30 rifle, no further description -at this time." - -This was at 12:45 p.m. - -Mr. RANKIN. What channel are you talking about? - -Mr. CURRY. Channel 1. - -Mr. RANKIN. You had more than one channel? - -Mr. CURRY. Two channels. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. CURRY. Someone came in, they didn't identify themselves and came in -and said what are they wanted for, and they said signal 19 which is a -shooting under our code involving the President. - -Representative FORD. Did Tippit's motorcycle have channel 1? - -Mr. CURRY. He was in a squad car and most of our squad cars have -channel 1 and 2, but they stay on channel 1 unless they are instructed -to switch over to channel 2. - -Mr. DULLES. He did have channel 1? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. Now within the minute of broadcasting, a little further -on, squads 102 and 233 checked out at Elm and Houston, 81 came in the -district squad, that was an Oak Cliff squad. He said "I will be going -north from Industrial on Corinth." That means he was leaving the Oak -Cliff section coming toward the downtown section of Dallas. - -Representative FORD. By he who do you mean? - -Mr. CURRY. The man assigned to district 81, and I don't have his name -but it would be on our records. - -Then Tippit was working 78 and he along with district 87, which is -further out in Oak Cliff, at about 12:45, between 12:45 and 12:46, the -dispatcher sent out this message to him, "87-78 moving into central Oak -Cliff area." - -Now the central Oak Cliff area would have been the area nearby where -this shooting occurred. - -Representative FORD. Shooting of Tippit? - -Mr. CURRY. Shooting of Tippit occurred. I am sure--a little later on -here, he says "you are in Oak Cliff area, are you not," and he said "at -Lancaster and 8th", that would be just several blocks from where this -shooting then occurred. - -Mr. McCLOY. This is Tippit's reply going in? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. The next sentence also says something, Chief? - -Mr. CURRY. And the dispatcher told him, "You will be at large for any -emergency that comes in." In other words, he was one of the remaining -squads in Oak Cliff that was in service. - -Mr. DULLES. What does that mean, scout around the area? - -Mr. CURRY. Anywhere in that central area, Oak Cliff. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did he reply to that? - -Mr. CURRY. He said "10-4". - -Mr. RANKIN. What does that mean? - -Mr. CURRY. It means message received. - -Mr. RANKIN. Doesn't that mean approval? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. These are transcriptions of communications back -and forth? - -Mr. CURRY. That is recorded on our radio there in Dallas. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is there a tape recorder on that? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; and it is kept for a permanent record. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there any other shooting in this particular area where -Officer Tippit was that morning, do you know? - -Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. DULLES. Is that 10-4 message the last message you received from -Tippit? - -Mr. CURRY. As far as I know that is the last word we heard from him. - -Mr. McCLOY. Was this description of the suspect the first description -that went out? - -Mr. CURRY. As far as I know, it is. - -Mr. DULLES. That was at 12:45, as I recall. - -Mr. CURRY. Approximately, yes. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn of Officer Tippit's murder? - -Mr. CURRY. While I was out at Parkland Hospital. That is after we had -taken the President there and the Governor, and we were waiting there. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, on these showups for Lee Oswald, did you have any -special security arrangements about bringing him in among all this -crowd of news people? - -Mr. CURRY. We had some police officers bringing him down. I was there, -Captain Fritz went, I don't believe he went inside the door. He went to -the door, I believe. There were several officers there, yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was this more than usual? - -Mr. CURRY. Perhaps so; yes. Ordinarily there would have been maybe a -jailer and a jail guard with the prisoner. And there would have been -the detective out with the witnesses. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you disturbed about the security for Lee Oswald with -all this crowd? - -Mr. CURRY. Not at that time. I really didn't suspect any trouble from -the news media. I thought they were there doing a professional job of -reporting the news and I had no reason to be concerned about the news -media. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did it concern you that there were so many additional -people to try to keep track of as well as---- - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; it did. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you do about it? - -Mr. CURRY. I didn't do anything about it but I was concerned about it. -I was thinking that we were going to have to, in the event we have had -an incident like this occur again, that we would have to make some -different arrangements for the press. We couldn't, when I say the -press, the news media, we couldn't have the city hall overrun like this. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did it occur to you to do anything about stopping it right -then? - -Mr. CURRY. No. I didn't discuss it with any of my staff that we should -clear all these people out of here and get them outside the city hall. - -Mr. RANKIN. You gave no consideration to that kind of approach? - -Mr. CURRY. Not at the time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now after the interrogation of Oswald, did you make some -decision about moving him? - -Mr. CURRY. Not at that particular time. It is customary after we file -on a person that he be removed from the city hall. - -Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by file on a person? - -Mr. CURRY. File a case against him and that is necessary to go to the -district attorney's office usually, and in this case the district -attorney was there and we filed it at the city hall because the -district attorney was with us. - -Mr. RANKIN. A criminal complaint? - -Mr. CURRY. A criminal complaint. After we file this complaint it is -customary for the prisoner to be transferred from the city to the -county jail and to remain in custody until he makes bond or is brought -to trial. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is a regular practice? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. These transfers are usually made by the sheriff's -office, sometime during the morning. - -Mr. RANKIN. By the sheriff's office you mean it is the sheriff's -responsibility? - -Mr. CURRY. Routine transfers are made. It is not a hard and fast -custom. Many times we will take the prisoner to the sheriff. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who decides which way you will do it? - -Mr. CURRY. It is left up to the bureau commander. - -Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by the bureau commander? - -Mr. CURRY. That is handling the case. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who would that be in this case? - -Mr. CURRY. In this case it would have been Captain Fritz. - -Mr. RANKIN. And he decides then in all cases of this type whether -or not the police will take him across to the sheriff's jail or the -sheriff will come and get him? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; ordinarily it wouldn't even come to my attention -how it was handled. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did it come to your attention this time? - -Mr. CURRY. It did this time. I had asked, it seemed to me like it was -on Saturday after he had been filed on late or early Friday morning, -the news media many times had asked me when are you going to transfer -him and I said, "I don't know." - -Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by "early Friday morning?" - -Mr. CURRY. I mean early Saturday morning. Late Friday night or early -Saturday morning. - -Representative FORD. Where do you actually do this filing? - -Mr. CURRY. Ordinarily our detectives would go down to the courthouse -which is right near where the President was assassinated and file it -in the district attorney's office. However, in this case the district -attorney and also his assistant was up at the city hall with us, and we -drew up the complaints there at the city hall. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who do you mean by we? - -Mr. CURRY. When I say we, I mean the Dallas police officers and the -homicide officers working in this case. - -Mr. RANKIN. I see. - -Representative FORD. What evidence did you have at that point? - -Mr. CURRY. I couldn't tell you all the evidence. I think Captain Fritz -can tell you better than I. Captain Fritz just told me on Friday -afternoon he said, "We have sufficient evidence to file a case on -Oswald for the murder of Tippit." Later on that night, somewhere around -midnight, I believe, he told me, he said, "We now have sufficient -evidence to file on Lee Harvey Oswald for the assassination of -President Kennedy." - -He told me he had talked it over with Henry Wade and with the assistant -district attorney and they agreed we had enough evidence to file a -case, and a decision was made then to file the case, which we did. - -Representative FORD. At that time you had the rifle, did you not? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Who made the original identification of the rifle, -the kind of rifle that it was? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't know, sir. - -Representative FORD. It was reported that the original identification -was a 7.65 Mauser. Are those reports true or untrue? - -Mr. CURRY. I wouldn't know, sir. - -Representative FORD. You don't know? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't know. - -Representative FORD. Do you know when it was finally determined that it -was not a 7.65 Mauser? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I don't know that. - -Mr. McCLOY. As far as I know there was no police report that it was a -7.65 rifle. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, do you know of any police records of your -police department that showed that this weapon that was purportedly -involved in the assassination was a Mauser rifle? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; not to my knowledge. - -Representative FORD. All of your records show affirmatively it was the -Italian rifle? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. That is correct. - -Mr. McCLOY. While we are waiting for Mr. Rankin to continue his -examination, let me ask you this question, Chief. - -Did you, prior to the assassination, know or hear of Oswald? - -Mr. CURRY. Never. - -Mr. McCLOY. Didn't hear that he had been--there was a defector named -Oswald in the city of Dallas? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Never heard of his name? - -Mr. CURRY. We didn't have it in our files. - -Representative FORD. Was there anything in your files that Lee Harvey -Oswald had been involved with the Dallas police force? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. No record whatsoever? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Was there any record of his having made a trip to the -Soviet Union and returned? - -Mr. CURRY. Not in our files. - -Mr. DULLES. And returned to Texas? - -Mr. CURRY. We didn't have anything in our files regarding Lee Harvey -Oswald. - -Senator COOPER. Could I follow up on that, did you have any record of -any individuals, persons, in Dallas, or the area, who because of any -threats of violence against the President or any Communist background -required you to take any special security measures? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; when we have notables, celebrities visiting us, -there are some groups in Dallas that are known to be extreme rightwing -and extreme leftwing groups. We try to keep track of these people and -what their plans are. We have been able to infiltrate most of their -organizations. - -Senator COOPER. Now prior to the President's visit, did you take -any--did the Dallas Police force take any special security measures -about any persons that you might suspect of possible violence? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; we kept some people under surveillance or groups -under surveillance. We had prior to this visit, we had some information -brought to us, I don't know who brought it to us, that there was a -man in Sherman or Denison, who said that he is going to see that the -President was embarrassed when he came to Dallas. - -Senator COOPER. Who was that man, do you know? - -Mr. DULLES. We have a Secret Service report, I believe with regard to -this case. Here is one from the chief of police of Denton, Tex. - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; we had some information that the students at North -Texas were planning some demonstrations. - -Senator COOPER. My question is, did your police force take any special -security measures about anyone that you felt might be capable of -violence against the President? - -Mr. CURRY. Not at this particular time, because we had reports from -the different groups, and we had information from inside these groups -that they were not planning to do anything on the day the President was -there. We knew that General Walker was out of the city, and we knew -that his group that sometimes put on demonstrations. - -Senator COOPER. When you say planning, you are not limiting it to any -violence, but you are talking about any possible demonstrations? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; demonstrations. - -Senator COOPER. I want to come back to that point later, but I want to -ask this, outside of what you had in your police files, your records, -did you know yourself, or did you know whether anyone in authority in -the police force or anyone in the police force, to your knowledge, had -any knowledge of the presence of Oswald in Dallas? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I have asked my criminal intelligence section, -which would have been the persons who had knowledge of this. - -Senator COOPER. Had anyone informed you that he was working in the -Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Had he ever tangled with the Dallas Police in any respect -of which there is any record? - -Mr. CURRY. We have no record at all of him. - -Representative FORD. Did the Secret Service people inquire of you as to -your knowledge of these various groups that you had infiltrated? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't remember them specifically asking me what were these -groups planning to do. - -Representative FORD. Did you volunteer any information on it? - -Mr. CURRY. I think perhaps we told them what we had done. They -were aware of the fact that we did know the plans of the various -organizations, and I know we sent Lieutenant Revill and a couple of his -men up to Denison, or Denton, to talk to a man that had purportedly -said they were going to embarrass the President and had made some -remarks about it and after we talked with him he said, "I won't even -be in Dallas. I was just popping off. I will assure you I am not even -going to be down there. I don't want any part of it." - -Then some of the study group in North Texas, we had an informant in -this group, and they had decided they would be in Dallas with some -placards to express opinions about the President or some of his views. -Some of these people were arrested after the shooting because we were -afraid that the people were going to harm them. They were down around -the Trade Mart with some placards. - -Senator COOPER. I have a couple of more questions. - -Do you remember the full page advertisement that was in the Dallas -paper? - -Mr. CURRY. I saw it; yes. - -Senator COOPER. Directed against the President of the United States? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. What date did you give that statement in making any -kind of preparations for his visit? - -Mr. CURRY. In the first place, I didn't think it was very appropriate, -it makes us apprehensive, a little more apprehensive of the security of -the President, but we were doing everything that I knew we could do to -protect him. I will never forget that as we turned to go down toward -that underpass the remark was made, "We have almost got it made," and I -was very relieved that we had brought him through this downtown area, -and were fixing to get on this expressway where we could take him out -to the Trade Mart where we had a tremendous amount of security set up -for him. - -Senator COOPER. Since the assassination, have you had any actual -factors or any evidence or information of any kind which would indicate -that any person other than Oswald was involved in the assassination of -President Kennedy? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. DULLES. Was any investigation made of, I believe it was Weissman, -or somebody by that name, who inserted this advertisement to which -Senator Cooper referred, was any particular investigation made? - -Mr. CURRY. Not any investigation by us. - -(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.) - -Mr. McCLOY. I have one question. - -Did you since the assassination or before have any information or any -credible information which would indicate that there was any connection -between Ruby and Oswald? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; we were not able to establish any connection -between them. - -Mr. McCLOY. You made a thorough investigation of that? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; we made every attempt to prove or disprove an -association between them, and we were not able to connect the two. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you intend to ask the chief about the General Walker -episode? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes; and also about the Ruby episode. - -Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all I have at the moment. - -Mr. RANKIN. Chief, I put in front of you there as Exhibit 705, now -marked as "Exhibit 705," your radio log that you have just been looking -at and referred to, is that right? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you turn to the page there where you find the first -broadcast of the description of the suspect of the assassination of the -President? Is that on your page 6 or thereabouts? - -Mr. CURRY. The pages--yes, it is page 6, channel 1. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell what time of the day that is recorded as -having been made? - -Mr. CURRY. This shows at the end the broadcast to be 12:45 p.m. It -would be on November 22d. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer Exhibit 705 being -this radio log which covers a great many matters, but in light of the -importance of the time and the description and all, I think the entire -log should go in and then we can refer to different items in it. - -Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted as Commission's Exhibit No. 705. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 705, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, will you read to the Commission a description that was -given at that time of the suspect of the assassination? - -Mr. CURRY. The broadcast reads as follows: "Attention all squads. -Attention all squads. At Elm and Houston, reported to be an unknown -white male, approximately 30, slender build, height 5 feet 10 inches, -165 pounds. Reported to be armed with what is believed to be a -.30-caliber rifle. - -"Attention all squads, the suspect is believed to be white male, 30, 5 -feet 10 inches, slender build, 165 pounds, armed with what is thought -to be a .30-.30 rifle. No further description or information at this -time. KKB there 64 Dallas, and the time given as 12:45 p.m." - -Mr. RANKIN. You have described Officer Tippit's number? - -Mr. CURRY. District 78. - -Mr. RANKIN. And that is recorded along the left-hand side when there is -any message either from him or to him, is that right? - -Mr. CURRY. That is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you find there a message directed to him about moving to -the central Oak Cliff area? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. And what time is that message recorded? - -Mr. CURRY. Immediately following this dispatch to him to district -squads 87 and 78, EBG 78. - -Mr. RANKIN. What time? - -Mr. CURRY. The time is given as 12:46. - -Mr. RANKIN. What does it say? - -Mr. CURRY. The dispatcher asked him "87 and 78" or instructed him "Move -into the central Oak Cliff area." - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he respond to that? - -Mr. CURRY. A little later he did. - -Mr. RANKIN. When? - -Mr. CURRY. We have--he was asked his location, would be about 1 o'clock. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say what it was? - -Mr. CURRY. He didn't come back in at that time. At 1:08 p.m. they -called him again. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he respond? - -Mr. CURRY. It is at 12:54. The dispatcher said "78" and he responded, -he said, "You are in the Oak Cliff area, are you not?" - -Seventy-eight responded and said, "Lancaster and 8," which would be in -the central section of Oak Cliff. - -The dispatcher said, "You will be at large for any emergency that comes -in." - -And he responded, "10-4," which means message received. And he would -follow those instructions. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have an item there of a broadcast of a person who -murdered Tippit? - -Mr. CURRY. We have apparently--a citizen came in on the radio and he -said, "Somebody shot a police officer at 404 10th Street." Someone in -the background said 78, squad 78, car No. 10. And the citizen said, -"You get that?" and the dispatcher said, "78." - -And there was no response and the citizen said, "Hello, police -operator, did you get that?" Some other unknown voice came in and said, -"510 East Jefferson." - -Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day? - -Mr. CURRY. This was about 1:15; 1:19 is the next time that shows up on -the radio log. The dispatcher at 1:19 said, "The subject is running -west on Jefferson from the location." - -Citizen came back in on the radio and said, "From out here on 10th -street, 500 block, the police officer just shot, I think he is dead." -Dispatcher said, "10-4, we have the information." - -The citizen using the radio remained off the radio. - -Dispatcher to 15, he was the sergeant, said, "Did you receive the -information of police officer shot?" - -And he said, "10-4, but didn't that citizen say first he was on -Jefferson and 10th and then Chesapeake?" - -And he said, "Yes." - -And he said, "Do they relate?" - -And he said, "Yes, at Denver, 19 will be there shortly," that is a -sergeant or a lieutenant. - -Ninety-one came on and said, "Have a signal 19 involving a police -officer at 400 block East 10th. The suspect last seen running west on -Jefferson, no description at this time." - -The dispatcher came in and said, "The suspect just passed 401 East -Jefferson." - -Dispatcher then says, "Give us the correct location on it, 85, we have -three different locations." - -Eighty-five says, "I haven't seen anything on Jefferson yet, 10-4, -check, 491 East 10th at Denver." - -Dispatcher repeated, "The subject has just passed 401 East Jefferson." - -At 1:22 we have a broadcast here that says, "We have a description -on the suspect here on Jefferson, last seen on the 300 block on East -Jefferson, a white male, 30, about 5 feet 8, black hair, slender, -wearing a white jacket, white shirt and dark slacks, armed with what he -states unknown. Repeat the description." - -Dispatcher said that to the squad. He says. "Wearing a white jacket -believed to be a white shirt and dark slacks. What is his direction of -travel on Jefferson?" - -He said, "Travel west on Jefferson, last seen in the 401 West -Jefferson, correction, it will be East Jefferson." - -The dispatcher then said, "Pick up for investigation of aggravated -assault on a police officer, a white male approximately 30, 5 feet -8, slender build, has black hair, white jacket, white shirt, dark -trousers. Suspect has been seen running west on Jefferson from the 400 -block of East Jefferson at 1:24." - -Then they asked about the condition of the officer, and there was -something about--the dispatcher did receive some information that there -was a man pulled in there on West Davis driving a white Pontiac, a 1961 -or 1962 station wagon with a prefix PE, saying he had a rifle laying in -the street. - -We have a citizen following in a car address unknown direction. - -The dispatcher said, "Any unit near Gaston 3600 block, this is about a -blood bank." - -Then 279 comes in and says, "We believe the suspect on shooting this -officer out here got his white jacket, believed he dumped it in this -parking lot behind the service station at 400 block West, Jefferson -across from Dudley House. He had a white jacket we believe this is it." - -"You do not have a suspect, is that correct?" - -"No, just the jacket lying on the ground." - -There is some more conversation about blood going to Parkland. - -"What was the description beside the white jacket?" - -"White male, 30, 5-8 black hair, slender build, white shirt, white -jacket, black trousers, going west on Jefferson from the 300 block." - -Squad says, "This is Sergeant Jerry Hill." Says, "I am at 12th and -Beckley now, have a man in the car with me that can identify the -suspect if anybody gets one." - -Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, we were furnished a Commission Document No. -290, dated December 5, 1963, that purported to be a radio log for your -department, and it did not have any item in it in regard to instruction -to Officer Tippit to go to the Central Oak Cliff area. - -Do you know why that would be true? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't know why it wasn't in that log except that these -logs, after they are recorded, they are pretty difficult to try to take -everything off of them, channel 1 and channel 2 is in on them and they -spent many hours going over these and copying these. - -This would be available and I listened to our recording. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 705 you are talking about? - -Mr. CURRY. That is right. - -Mr. RANKIN. So if there is a discrepancy between the two, are you -satisfied that Exhibit 705 is correct? - -Mr. CURRY. Is the correct exhibit; yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Commission Document No. 290 does say at the heading that -most routine transmissions were left out for reasons of brevity. - -Would that be any explanation? - -Mr. CURRY. Perhaps it could be, yes. Because these would have been -routine broadcasts. The fact the squad was moving into this area -because this is more or less normal procedure when we have incidents -occurring of any magnitude, the squads immediately begin moving in to -cover officers of the district. - -Mr. RANKIN. You were going to tell us about how it came to your -attention about the moving of Lee Oswald to the jail from your place on -Saturday? - -Mr. CURRY. To the county jail? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -I asked Captain Fritz a time or two when he wanted to move Oswald, -because this is left up to him. Whoever will be handling the case, I -mean I don't enter in the transfer of prisoners. I don't ordinarily -even know when they are going to be transferred. - -Mr. RANKIN. Why is that? - -Mr. CURRY. It is just a routine matter. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us is that involved quite a few times in your -operations? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. Usually it is a daily transfer of prisoners, -and usually the sheriff's office sends up there and picks them up on -routine prisoners. - -Mr. RANKIN. Are there a number each day? - -Mr. CURRY. I would say perhaps anywhere from maybe none to 15 a day. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you talk to Officer or Captain Fritz about this? - -Mr. CURRY. I think I talked to him some on Saturday, because the -newspaper people or the news media kept asking me when are going to -transfer him? - -Mr. RANKIN. That would be November 23? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; and I said this I don't know because that would be left -up to the men doing the interrogation. When they felt like they were -finished with him and wanted to transfer him or when Sheriff Decker -said, "We want the man." - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with his transfer then? - -Mr. CURRY. Other than to, I called Sheriff Decker on Sunday morning and -he said, I told him and I think he had talked to Fritz prior to that -time, too, and he told Fritz, he says, "Don't bring him down here until -I get some security set up for him." - -So, Sunday morning I talked to Sheriff Decker. - -Mr. RANKIN. Why didn't you do it at night? - -Mr. CURRY. This is not customary to transfer prisoners at night. - -Mr. RANKIN. Why? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, in talking with Captain Fritz, and here again the -prisoner was his, and when some of my captains, I believe it was -perhaps Lieutenant Swain, it is in the record somewhere said something -about, "Do you think we ought to move him at night?" - -And Captain Fritz was not in favor of moving him at night because he -said, "If anything does occur you can't see, anybody can immediately -get out of sight, and if anything is going to happen we want to know -where we can see and see what is happening." - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you fearful something might happen? - -Mr. CURRY. I didn't know. I thought it could happen because of a -feeling of a great number of people. But I certainly didn't think -anything to happen in city hall. I thought that if anything did happen -to him it would probably be en route from the city jail to the county -jail. - -Mr. RANKIN. What precautions did you take? - -Mr. CURRY. The precautions that were taken, when I came in on Sunday -morning, now Captain Fritz, I had talked to him on Saturday night or -Saturday evening anyway, and he said, he thought he would be ready -to transfer him by 10 o'clock the next morning, that would be Sunday -morning. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell that to the media? - -Mr. CURRY. I told them at some time after that. Several of them asked -me when are you going to transfer him, and I said, I don't know. - -They said, "Are you going to transfer him tonight," and I said, "No, we -are not going to transfer him tonight." I said, "We are tired. We are -going home and get some rest." - -Something was said about well, we are tired, too. When should we come -back, and I think that this is recorded in some of the tape recording, -that I told them if you are back here by 10 o'clock in the morning, I -don't think that you would miss anything you want to see. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you do then about precautions? - -Mr. CURRY. The next morning when I came in, that would be about 8:30, -8:45, I think, parked in the basement of city hall, I started up to -the elevator and I noticed they had moved some cameras into a hallway -down in the basement and I told Lieutenant Wiggins who is in the jail -office, I said, "These things will have to be moved out of here, and -I also told Chief Batchelor, and Chief Stevenson, Assistant Chief -Batchelor, and Assistant Chief in Charge of Investigations Stevenson -who came down in the basement at the time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Those were TV cameras? - -Mr. CURRY. That was in the lobby or in near the lobby of the jail -office. I told them they were--would have to move those out of there. -This was also in the parking area, there was a ramp come down from Main -Street and goes out on Commerce Street, and then there is a parking -area east of this. - -I told Lieutenant Wiggins who was there, I said, "Now, move these squad -cars," there was a transfer car there and a squad car, "move these cars -out of this area and if the news media wants down here put them over -behind these railings, back over in the basement here." - -Then that is all I did at that time. I saw that they were setting -up some security. A little while later Chief Batchelor and Chief -Stevenson went downstairs and found Captain Talbert who was the platoon -commander, radio platoon commander had some sergeants down there and -they were setting up security and were told clean everything out of the -basement and not let anybody in here, I think the depositions will show -that, not let anybody in except police officers and news media who had -proper credentials. - -Mr. RANKIN. What about the various entrances, was anything done about -that? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, the entrances to the basement, yes, and the entrances -from the basement of city hall out into the basement proper where the -cars come in. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was done about that? - -Mr. CURRY. Every entrance there were guards put on it with instructions -not to let anyone come or go except police officers or news people that -had proper credentials. - -Mr. RANKIN. What entrances are there to the basement? - -Mr. CURRY. This is a Main Street entrance for vehicles, that would be -on the north side of the building. There is a Commerce Street exit -which would be on the south side of the building, on the west side -downstairs there is an entrance from the jail corridor where the public -goes to the jail window into the basement of the parking area. Then -there are some elevators that come from the municipal building, that -come down to the basement level. There are also, there is also an -opening that goes from this basement down into a subbasement where the -maintenance men have their offices. - -(At this point, Senator Cooper left the hearing room.) - -Mr. RANKIN. And each one of those was guarded? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Throughout the time? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. What other precautions were made? - -Mr. CURRY. There were a great number of police reservists and -detectives and uniformed officers, I think there was a total, I believe -of about 74 men in this area between the jail office and the immediate -area where he would be loaded. - -Mr. RANKIN. How large an area was that? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, where he would be brought out of the jail office to -put him in this car, would be, I would say, 16 or 20 feet, and then -this building, this ramp runs from one street to the other, and the -parking area would cover a block wide and perhaps 150 feet deep. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were there cars in the parking area? - -Mr. CURRY. Some cars were there. They had been searched out, all of -them. All of the vehicles had been searched, and all the, where the -airconditioning ducts were, they had all been searched, every place -where a person could conceal himself had been searched out. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there a plan for an armored car? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; there was. - -Mr. RANKIN. What happened about that? - -Mr. CURRY. After they had gotten the armored car down there, in talking -with Captain Fritz, and here again this prisoner was his responsibility -and I don't want to be in a position of just overriding him, and I was -willing to trust his judgment, he had been doing this for, like I say, -nearly 40 years, and he said, "Chief, I would prefer not to use that -armored car, I don't know who the driver is. It is awkward to handle -and if anybody tries to do anything to us, I am afraid we would be -surrounded. I would prefer to put him in a police car with some of my -men following him, and get in and just take him right down Main Street -and slip him into the jail." - -So I said, "It will be all right with me if you want to do it that way -but let's not say anything about this." - -Mr. RANKIN. Now the armored car was not a Dallas police car, was it? - -Mr. CURRY. No; it was not. - -Mr. RANKIN. It was one you were arranging to get from---- - -Mr. CURRY. I believe his name was Mr. Sherrell, who was the manager of -the Armored Motor Service there in Dallas. - -Mr. RANKIN. And they would furnish a driver with it? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. What else was done, if anything? - -Mr. CURRY. We went ahead with our plans and we instructed the officers -that would be involved in this transfer they would go east on Commerce -Street, north to Elm Street, west on Elm Street to Houston Street, and -then back south on Houston to the rear entrance of the county jail. - -Mr. RANKIN. How many officers would be involved in the transfer? - -Mr. CURRY. In the actual transfer, I would think perhaps 15 or 18 -besides the men that were stationed at the intersections downtown. - -Mr. RANKIN. How far would it be from your police department to the -county jail? - -Mr. CURRY. I would say 12-15 blocks. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were there any other precautions you haven't described? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; that is about all I know of, except that Captain -Fritz wanted to transfer the prisoner in his car, with some of his -detectives. This is not unusual. He has transferred many, many -prisoners, especially where there is--it is an unusual case involving -more than the ordinary routine crime, so it is not anything unusual to -transfer him, for him to transfer prisoners. - -But, it was then suggested or arranged that they would put his car in a -position behind the armored car that we would bring the prisoner out, -put him in his car, and he would have two detectives in the back seat -with him, plus one driver and two or three detectives following him -immediately and there was supposed to be another car to pick up and go -with them or get into a car van with these two. - -They would follow the armored motor car and no one would know that -he was not in the armored motor car except the reporters downstairs -when they saw him come out. They would see he was placed in a car -instead of the armored car, and we planned to let the armored car go -over the predetermined route, but that Captain Fritz, when he got to -Main Street, as you go east on Commerce and turned north to go to Elm -Street, that is the second street over, when he got to Main Street they -would make a left turn and go right down Main Street to the county -jail, and they would turn right on Houston Street and the lead car -would pull past the entrance and he would duck in and the gates would -be closed and the prisoner would be transferred. - -Mr. RANKIN. What happened to these TV cameras that you told them to get -out of there? - -Mr. CURRY. They moved them back somewhere. I don't know where they -moved them but it was away from there. - -Mr. RANKIN. Weren't their cameras right there at the time of the -shooting? - -Mr. CURRY. There were some cameras immediately over, TV cameras, I -think over where I had told them to place them earlier that morning. -I understood when Chief Batchelor went downstairs and I think Captain -Jones of the forgery bureau, immediately prior to the transfer, they -found there were some reporters and cameramen in the jail office, and -Captain Jones, I believe, asked Chief Batchelor if these should not -be removed and he was told yes, they should be removed out into the -basement. When they were removed out into the basement instead of them -being placed outside of the railing--now this is a decision made by -Chief Batchelor, I suppose, because he said put them in the driveway -up to the north. Now this is from where Ruby came. So apparently this -afforded him an opportunity, from our investigation it was determined -that he came down this Main Street ramp. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you determine that? - -Mr. CURRY. We interrograted every man that was assigned in the -basement. Also every witness who was around there that we could find -that knew anything about it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone see him come in on that ramp? - -Mr. CURRY. There was a former police officer who told us he saw him go -down that ramp, a Negro former police officer. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who was that? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe his name was Daniels. I think perhaps you have a -statement from him, don't you? - -Mr. RANKIN. Is he the only one who saw him come in down there? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe so. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now with these TV cameras down there how would your ruse -work about having the armored car go ahead and Oswald climb into -Captain Fritz' car? Wouldn't that all be shown on TV? - -Mr. CURRY. If it was. We didn't think there would be anybody downtown -to be in a position to watching TV that quickly to do anything about it -if they wanted to. - -Mr. RANKIN. You thought about it though? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. What happened? Were you down there at the time? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I would have been but I received a call from my -mayor and as I was fixing to go downstairs and I wish that I had been -downstairs because I don't know that I could have done anything but you -always have this feeling if you were there maybe you could have done -something. - -But I was called to the telephone and while I was talking to the mayor, -why I heard some noises from downstairs and I was up on the third -floor, and I heard some shouting, and someone came in and told me that -Oswald had been shot. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn how the shooting occurred? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us? - -Mr. CURRY. I was told that someone sprang from the crowd and pushed a -gun into his stomach and fired a shot. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who that was? - -Mr. CURRY. I was told that the man was named Jack Ruby. - -Mr. RANKIN. What else did you learn about it? - -Mr. CURRY. Further investigation revealed, and some of my officers who -talked to Ruby and talked to his attorney, I believe, were told that he -came down that north ramp, and an investigation revealed that one of -our officers, who was assigned there. Officer Vaughn, who was assigned -to this location just prior to this transfer. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is out on the street? - -Mr. CURRY. Main Street side. - -Mr. RANKIN. At the entrance? - -Mr. CURRY. At the entrance to the basement ramp. He had been assigned -there and had been told not to let anybody come in except newspaper -reporters or news media or police officers. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you find out what he did? - -Mr. CURRY. We discovered or found out subsequently that he, just prior -to this transfer, that when we found out we were going to transfer him -and not use an armored car that Chief Stevenson had told Lieutenant -Pierce "to get a couple of sergeants or a sergeant, get somebody and -go around and get in front of the armored car and when we tell you to -why you lead off and lead this armored car over here and just over the -route we have discussed, and take it to the county jail." - -Well, Lieutenant Pierce went downstairs and got a car and he got -Sergeant Putnam and I don't recall the other sergeant, and because the -ramp that ordinarily we would use for exit ramp to Commerce Street, -it was blocked with this armored car and another vehicle, he went out -in the wrong direction, that is he went north, up to north, he went -north on the ramp to Main Street which ordinarily would not be done, -but since he could not get out, why he did, and as he approached the -ramp, our investigation showed that Officer Vaughn stepped from his -assignment in the entrance to this ramp, and the walk is about 10 or 12 -feet wide there, stepped across and just more or less assisted the car -to get into the Main Street flow of traffic. - -Now he wasn't asked to do this by the lieutenant, but he just did it -and according to what Ruby told some of my officers, I believe, whether -you have it on the record who he told this to, that he came down that -north ramp. - -Mr. RANKIN. At that time? - -Mr. CURRY. At that time. - -Now this would only have been, it couldn't have possibly been over 2 -or 3 minutes prior to the shooting, so apparently he went right down -that ramp and he got in behind some of these newspaper reporters or -news media and detectives, and as Oswald was brought out he sprang from -behind one of my detectives and took about two steps and shoved a gun -in Oswald's side and pulled the trigger. - -This officer, in talking to him, he made a report, he swears that he -didn't see anybody go in there. - -Mr. RANKIN. By this officer, you mean Vaughn? - -Mr. CURRY. Officer Vaughn. He did, I asked him myself or asked the -investigating officers to see if he wouldn't take a polygraph test -concerning this, just to verify his position in it, and he agreed -to take the polygraph test and did take the polygraph test and the -polygraph test revealed that he was not aware that Ruby came in while -he stepped, when he stepped away from the entrance of that door. - -Now I am not here to place the blame on anybody because, as I have -said previously, as head of the department, I have got to accept the -responsibility for what goes on there. - -But if Officer Vaughn had properly carried out his assignment, I don't -believe that Ruby could have gotten into the basement of the city hall. - -Mr. McCLOY. Unless he had credentials, media credentials? - -Mr. CURRY. That is correct. - -Mr. McCLOY. We haven't verified whether or not he did have anything? - -Mr. CURRY. We haven't been able to verify that. There were none found -on his person. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any inquiry as to whether or not any of the -police force were involved with Ruby in this shooting? - -Mr. CURRY. We got reports and interrogated every officer who was there. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you find out? - -Mr. CURRY. We didn't find any officer who knew he was down there or -that had in any way assisted him in getting there. No one. - -Mr. RANKIN. You are satisfied that none of them were involved in trying -to have Oswald shot? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I certainly am. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you make inquiry to determine whether there was any -evidence that anyone else was involved with Ruby in trying to shoot -Oswald? - -Mr. CURRY. We made every effort we could in our investigation. We were -not able to determine any tieup between any other individual and Ruby -or Oswald. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any inquiry to determine whether or not anyone -else was involved with Oswald in the assassination of the President? - -Mr. CURRY. We attempted to. Every lead we came upon we followed it -out to see whether or not we could make any connection between Ruby, -Oswald, or any other group. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you discover any evidence that would tend to show that -Oswald had any support in the assassination? - -Mr. CURRY. No; we did not. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you discover any evidence that would prove Ruby was -involved with any other person in the killing of Oswald? - -Mr. CURRY. We were not able to determine any connection. - -Mr. DULLES. I will just ask one question, if I may, here. - -It was Officer Vaughn, I understand, who had the direct responsibility -for checking the credentials. - -Mr. CURRY. Of that door, of that particular door. - -Mr. DULLES. That door. Is there any evidence that Officer Vaughn knew -of Ruby? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't believe he did. - -Mr. DULLES. Has that been looked into? - -Mr. CURRY. He was asked that, and if I remember correctly in his -deposition he didn't know him. - -Mr. DULLES. He testified he didn't know him? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe so, I am not confident of that, but they have had -his deposition here, which I am sure would reveal that. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you know---- - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you know, chief, anybody on the staff, on your staff, on -the police staff, that was particularly close to Ruby? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. McCLOY. I would want to go back for a little while on one thing. - -How did it happen the description was broadcast so quickly after the -event? Can you explain the circumstances under which---- - -Mr. CURRY. I am merely giving an opinion here. - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes. - -Mr. CURRY. I think the reason it was when they found out at the Texas -School Book Depository that this employee when they were checking -employees and they found out this employee was missing, that they -presumed he must or could have had some connection between the shooting -of the President and the fact that he was not present at this time. - -Mr. McCLOY. Can you describe the mechanics or the machinery by which -this did get on to, this material on to the broadcast, that is---- - -Mr. BALL. Could I go off the record on it? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; other than, I am sure that someone put it over a -police radio to our dispatcher and he put it then, he broadcast it. - -Mr. McCLOY. That is someone on the scene would presumably communicate -with headquarters? - -Mr. CURRY. With the dispatcher. He would rebroadcast it to all units. - -Mr. McCLOY. And he would rebroadcast it to all the units? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. You have given us, I think, an estimate or approximate -estimate of the number of officers you thought that knew Ruby, and I -believe it was about 25 out of the whole force. - -Mr. CURRY. This is just--I mean this is not--I couldn't say this was -a real accurate number, but I am just presuming from just talking to -people in the department. I would say that certainly no more than 50 -men knew anything about him at all. - -Mr. DULLES. Have you made any effort to find out and run down these men -that did know? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. You have? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. And how many have you actually discovered did know Ruby -from that investigation? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't have the exact number, but I am guessing it probably -would be 25 or 30 men. - -Mr. DULLES. Twenty-five men whom you have interrogated with regard to -their association with Ruby? - -Mr. CURRY. That knew him in some capacity. That knew him in some -capacity. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rankin, do we have depositions on this point? - -Mr. RANKIN. We have inquired of everyone deposed as to what he knew -about Jack Ruby, what acquaintance, any prior connections. - -Mr. DULLES. You mean all the police officers who were---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Who were interrogated, but, of course, we didn't cover any -1,200 men. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you cover all those that were present that morning? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe we asked anyone in the police department who knew -Ruby to let us know about it. And then I think anyone that knew him, -the names were turned over to those people here. We covered all that -such an inquiry would reveal but we didn't purport to cover--well, we -covered something like a hundred out of 1,200. - -We requested by departmental order any police officer who knew Jack -Ruby make it known to us, and then he was interrogated about it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Of those interrogated that would probably include all of -those present the day of the shooting of Oswald, the morning of the -shooting of Oswald at the time of the transfer? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe it would. - -Mr. RANKIN. All that we knew were present at all, and beyond that, too, -have been interrogated. - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. When Officer 78, that is Tippit was directed to the Oak -Cliff area that was simply because the Oak Cliff area was sort of a -center of activity at that point? - -Mr. CURRY. At that time. - -Mr. McCLOY. It wasn't--it wasn't because you were trying to or had any -idea that the suspect might have been there? - -Mr. CURRY. Not from the Presidential shooting, but we were sure that -the suspect in the Officer Tippit shooting was in the central area. - -Mr. McCLOY. But Tippit was still alive on the first direction to him to -go out there? - -Mr. CURRY. That was because some of the squad had been moved out of the -Oak Cliff into the Dallas area. You see, this is across the river. - -Mr. McCLOY. What is the Oak Cliff area? - -Mr. RANKIN. I think that ought to be clarified. Chief Curry, wasn't -your testimony that Tippit was in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then he was directed to move to the central Oak Cliff -area? - -Mr. CURRY. That is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. Move in closer, and so he was in it, his regular beat, as I -understand it, was in the Oak Cliff area, isn't that right? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And is Oak Cliff a suburb or what is it? - -Mr. CURRY. It is not exactly a suburb, but it is physically separated. -It used to be a separate municipality and some years ago---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Where does it lie? - -Mr. CURRY. It lies west of Dallas proper and across the Trinity River -and the only means of going to Oak Cliff, going to and from Oak Cliff -is by means of viaduct so there is a physical separation between Oak -Cliff and Dallas, and some of the squads had been pulled out of the Oak -Cliff area and to come over to the Elm and Houston area to assist in -the investigation of this shooting, and it would be normal procedure as -squads go out of an area for the squads further out to move in in the -event something does happen in this area they would have a squad that -wouldn't be so far removed from it. - -Mr. DULLES. This direction had nothing to do with any suspicion that -you might have had that the assassin might be going into this area? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; none at all. - -Mr. DULLES. It was purely a maneuver to cover an area which had been -evacuated or been left uncovered because of the assassination and the -reassignment of squads? - -Mr. CURRY. The reassignment of squads, that is right. - -Mr. McCLOY. Because of the withdrawal of people of the Oak Cliff area -into the Houston Street area? - -Mr. CURRY. That is correct. So we pulled some of the squads further -assigned to the area into the most central area to cover anything that -might happen so they would be in position to go out or come in. - -Mr. McCLOY. That does clear it up. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us on the record what was normal procedure -that you just spoke about? - -Mr. CURRY. Normal procedure would be when we have a great number of -squads on assignment in an area, in their particular district, as -squads go out of service, say they are checking out, to haul prisoners -into the jails or they are on calls, it just is automatic they are -instructed in school when they go to school if the adjoining squad goes -out of service, doesn't stay, say he adjoins you on the east, don't -go to the far west side of your district, go to the east side of your -district where you could be on the west side of his district, so if -something else occurs in his district you would be in a position to -answer the call. - -Ordinarily it is not necessary for us to, so that squads go to getting -out of service, to go and rearrange squads. - -In this particular instance, when he asked 81 and 78 if they were in -central Oak Cliff they said yes, but they were moving there because -this would be a normal thing to do, to move into an area where other -squads had gone out of service. - -Mr. RANKIN. You told us about your efforts to try to determine whether -subversive groups or groups that might have an interest in making -trouble for a trip of the President were going to try to do anything. -Would you tell us what you did about that in more detail? - -Mr. CURRY. I gave you a copy of this, and I would like to read it for -the record, if you would like me to. - -Mr. RANKIN. We will offer that. - -Mr. CURRY. All right. - -This is a copy of a report submitted to me by Lieutenant Jack Revill, -criminal intelligence section of the special service bureau. - -Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit No. 710 and ask you if that isn't a -copy of what you are referring to. - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; it is. - -Mr. RANKIN. You won't have to read that. Chief, if you will just -describe in a general way what was done that you know about and then I -will offer that to show what it proves. - -Mr. CURRY. In essence, this report says prior to the announcement of -the President's visit, there were rumors he would visit Dallas and -because of these rumors the intelligence section increased its efforts -in attempting to get data concerning not only extremists and subversive -groups. - -Mr. RANKIN. How do they do that? - -Mr. CURRY. They usually have an informant inside the organization. -Sometimes it may be one of our own men. - -Mr. RANKIN. I see. - -That was with regard to the persons listed on that Exhibit 710? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any other efforts besides that? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; these are all that I know of except we did in one -instance go to the cities outside of Dallas, towns outside of Dallas -to talk to some people that had rumored that they would do something -to embarrass the President. These organizations are listed as the Ku -Klux Klan, the Indignant White Citizens Council, National States Rights -Party, the John Birch Society, Dallas White Citizens Council, Oak Cliff -White Citizens Council, General Walker group, American Opinion Forum, -Dallas Committee for Full Citizenship, Young Peoples Socialist League, -Dallas Civil Liberties Union, Texas White Citizens Council, and Black -Muslims. - -Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 709 which you have furnished us -this morning, and ask you, can you tell us how you got that exhibit? - -Mr. CURRY. This exhibit was a report that was submitted to me from Jack -Revill, who is a lieutenant, in the criminal intelligence section. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is the same man who is referred to in Exhibit 710? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, it is; their assignment is to keep track of these -groups that we have talked about, possible subversive or extremist -groups and try to know something about their plans, their movements. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you get that information described in Exhibit 709? - -Mr. CURRY. It was given to me on November 22d at 2:50 p.m., or shortly -thereafter, but I mean the information came to him at that time, and he -passed it on to me, later that day. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you tell us how you secured Exhibit 711? - -Mr. CURRY. This is a report from Officer V. J. Brian, B-r-i-a-n, who -is a detective in the criminal intelligence section, and was present -when Lieutenant Revill, when the information submitted was given to -Lieutenant Revill. - -Mr. RANKIN. I would like to offer Exhibits 709, 710, and 711. - -Mr. DULLES. They will be admitted. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 709, -710, and 711 for identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I think we should have a recess now until 2 -o'clock. - -Mr. McCLOY. One more question. - -Was there any talk that you heard around before the, after the -apprehension of Oswald and his time set for his removal from police -headquarters to the jail, was there any talk that you heard in the -corridors or elsewhere about lynching or possible lynching? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir. The only information I had was that the FBI, -someone from the FBI passed the information to the city hall during the -night that they had had a call that said, I believe the FBI sent this -call, that there was a group of 100 who would take that prisoner away -from us before he got to the county jail. - -Mr. McCLOY. But this came from outside the jail? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; outside. - -Mr. McCLOY. You never heard any threats uttered within the jail? - -Mr. CURRY. No. - -Mr. DULLES. Another general question: Have you any comments or anything -you would like to say about the cooperation between the Dallas police, -the Secret Service, and the FBI during this period immediately -following, prior to and immediately following the assassination? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir. We have always had the best of cooperation between -both of these Federal units, and all other units of the Federal and -State government. I feel sure that they thought this information was -important to us, they probably would have given it to us. But we -certainly have not had any trouble with the FBI or with the Secret -Service in any of our past associations. - -Mr. DULLES. I was going a little further. I mean, was the cooperation -whole-hearted and open and frank as far as you could tell? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; as far as I could tell, it was. - -Mr. DULLES. Was there any problem created because of the possible--not -conflict of authority, but question as to who had responsibility of -particular areas here as between you as chief of police and the Secret -Service and the FBI? - -Mr. CURRY. Prior to the President's visit, no; there was nothing there. - -Mr. DULLES. Prior to or subsequent to? - -Mr. CURRY. Now, subsequent to that, we felt this, that this was a -murder that had been committed in the county, city and county of -Dallas, and that we had prior, I mean we had jurisdiction over this. -The FBI actually had no jurisdiction over it, the Secret Service -actually had no jurisdiction over it. But in an effort to cooperate -with these agencies we went all out to do whatever they wanted us -to do that we could do to let them observe what was taking place, -but actually we knew that this was a case that happened in Dallas, -Tex., and would have to be tried in Dallas, Tex., and it was our -responsibility to gather the evidence and present the evidence. - -We kept getting calls from the FBI. They wanted this evidence up in -Washington, in the laboratory, and there was some discussion, Fritz -told me, he says, "Well, I need the evidence here, I need to get some -people to try to identify the gun, to try to identify this pistol and -these things, and if it is in Washington how can I do it?" - -But we finally, the night, about midnight of Friday night, we agreed to -let the FBI have all the evidence and they said they would bring it to -their laboratory and they would have an agent stand by and when they -were finished with it to return it to us. - -Mr. DULLES. An agent of the police force, you mean? - -Mr. CURRY. An agent of the FBI. - -Mr. DULLES. FBI? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. There was no agent of the Dallas police that went to -Washington with the evidence? - -Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did that work out all right so far? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, not exactly, because they were to give us pictures of -everything that was brought to Washington, and Fritz tells me that some -of these little items that it was very poor reproduction of some of the -items on microfilm. - -Subsequently they photographed these things in Washington and sent us -copies, some 400, I think, 400 copies of different items. So far as I -know, we have never received any of that evidence back. It is still in -Washington, I guess. - -Perhaps the Commission has it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes; the Commission is still working with it. - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. But apparently the FBI tried to carry out their agreement -with you, didn't they? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; they did. - -Mr. RANKIN. And it is a question of whether or not their reproductions -were as good as you would like to have? - -Mr. CURRY. There were made, some of them, in the office down in Dallas, -they were in a tremendous hurry to get all of these items to the -laboratory here in Washington, and our only concern was this, that if -this case is tried in Dallas, we need the evidence to be presented here -in a court in Dallas and we were a little bit apprehensive about it if -it gets to Washington will it be available to us when we need it. If we -need somebody to identify, attempt to identify the gun or other items -will it be here for them to see? - -And that was our only concern. - -We got several calls insisting we send this, and nobody would tell me -exactly who it was that was insisting, "just say I got a call from -Washington, and they wanted this evidence up there," insinuated it was -someone in high authority that was requesting this, and we finally -agreed as a matter of trying to cooperate with them, actually. - -Mr. DULLES. Have you any more questions? - -Mr. McCLOY. Not at this stage. - -Mr. RANKIN. Shall we convene at 2? - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Murray, do you have any? - -Mr. MURRAY. No, thank you. - -(Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Afternoon Session - -TESTIMONY OF JESSE EDWARD CURRY RESUMED - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m. - -Mr. McCLOY. (presiding). We are ready. - -Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, I was asking you just as we closed your -examination before lunch about Exhibits 709, 711 particularly, and you -will recall those are the documents concerning the conversation between -Agent Hosty of the FBI and Jack Revill who is your lieutenant of -criminal intelligence section, is that right? - -Mr. CURRY. It was reported to me, I was given a report to that effect. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know anything about the matters described in those -letters? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what you know about them? Do you want to -see them? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. One of the documents tells me that Lieutenant Revill -states that about 2:50 p.m. on the 22d---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Of what? - -Mr. CURRY. November 1963, that he met Special Agent Jim Hosty of the -FBI in the basement of the city hall, and at that time Agent Hosty -related to Revill that the subject, Oswald, was a member of the -Communist Party, and that he was residing in Dallas. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any further inquiry after you got that -information? - -Mr. CURRY. None other than I had a report from V. J. Brian, a detective -in criminal intelligence, who was present at the time this conversation -took place. - -Mr. RANKIN. That later report was as of April 20? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. 1964? - -Mr. CURRY. The last report. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was the occasion for that? - -Mr. CURRY. I just asked Revill if anyone was with him at the time, and -he recalled that Detective Brian was at the time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Otherwise, did you know anything more about that matter? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I believe Captain Fritz said that he, he told me he -knew they had been out to talk to Mrs. Paine. - -Mr. RANKIN. By they, who do you mean? - -Mr. CURRY. Some of the FBI agents, and that he did know that Oswald -apparently knew Hosty, because Hosty was present in the interrogation -room. - -Mr. RANKIN. By he there at that point who do you mean? - -Mr. CURRY. Oswald. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes; but you say he knew. - -Mr. CURRY. That Oswald knew Hosty. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. CURRY. Because according to Fritz he said that he was quite bitter, -Oswald was quite bitter toward Hosty because he had made the statement -that "you mistreated my wife." - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how Captain Fritz learned that? - -Mr. CURRY. He was in Captain Fritz's office when this statement was -made, according to Captain Fritz. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, after the assassination, did you give any orders of -your staff, making any reports about anything they knew about either -the assassination or the Tippit killing? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; we had all of our officers who knew anything at -all about it to submit reports which is a normal procedure in any -unusual incident. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you direct that that be done? - -Mr. CURRY. Just through my staff. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that in writing? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. You just told them? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. And was that direction promptly given? - -Mr. CURRY. I am sure it was passed on immediately. All orders are. - -Mr. RANKIN. How soon after the assassination? - -Mr. CURRY. I would say probably within the next day after we met and we -decided that an investigation should be conducted into all phases of -this. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you give any directions about furnishing information -immediately about what anyone knew about the killing of Oswald? - -Mr. CURRY. No specific directions. After Oswald was killed, I called -and I talked with Deputy Chief Stevenson of the criminal investigation -division the next morning of the next day, I believe this was Monday, -and we decided we should appoint an investigative group. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who was that? - -Mr. CURRY. That was Inspector Sawyer, headed by Inspector Sawyer. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who else? - -Mr. CURRY. And Captain O. A. Jones, and then I think they had some -lieutenants assigned to it and some detectives. Their assignment was to -find out every person who was present in or around the city hall at the -time that Lee Oswald was killed, and to get a report from them. - -I know Lieutenant Revill was also in on this, and then they would also, -in addition to getting a report, they would personally interrogate each -one of them to see whether or not any information they had knowledge of -might be left out of the reports. - -And you have a copy of all of these reports, both the reports the -officers made, the additional interrogation made by members of this -investigating group. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether they inquired as to the knowledge of -any of these people about conversations with Ruby immediately after the -shooting of Oswald? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe they have some reports to that effect. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that a part of their responsibility to get those -reports? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; anything that they had, that they could get regarding -this. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you would expect the police officers to tell anything -they knew at once? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. So far as you know has all of that information been -supplied to the Commission? - -Mr. CURRY. So far as I know. - -Mr. RANKIN. It has? - -Mr. CURRY. So far as I know it has been supplied. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn about the claims of some police officers that -Ruby had said something about the killing to them shortly after killing -Oswald? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn that? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't recall exactly, the exact date that I learned of -this. But I think the first time it came to my knowledge was that Agent -Sorrels of the Secret Service, sometime after this told me, he said, -"Now Chief, I don't know that, they could--that I could testify to -this," but he said, "immediately after Oswald was shot, I went to his -cell"---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Whose cell? - -Mr. CURRY. To Oswald's--I mean to Ruby's cell, "and I went in and -talked to him, told him who I was, and"---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Was anyone else present? - -Mr. CURRY. There was a patrolman and a guard, I think, and perhaps a -detective. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who were they? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe Dean was present, Sergeant Dean, I don't know who -these officers were but it is revealed in these reports that have been -made. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. CURRY. Sorrels told me, he said, "I asked Ruby why he did it and he -said somebody had to kill the son-of-a-bitch and the police department -couldn't do it." - -I believe he also said, "I couldn't think, stand the thought of having -Jacqueline Kennedy having to return to Dallas and go through a trial -for him." I told him this was not for the Secret Service or not for -publication, I just asked him the question but he said, "I did not warn -him against himself, about his constitutional rights, so I don't know -that I would be allowed to testify to this." - -Mr. RANKIN. When did Sorrels first tell you that? - -Mr. CURRY. This was the--it seems to me like several days after this -occurred. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you report that to anyone? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe I told Chief Stevenson about it or whoever was--or -perhaps Captain or Inspector Sawyer or some of them. This information -was relayed on to the investigating group. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether they recorded it any place? - -Mr. CURRY. No; we called the officers, when I say we, the investigating -team did talk with the officers and they recall hearing this testimony. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when they first gave you any information that -they knew of any such conversation? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't recall that; no, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that the officers ever said to you or placed -in writing in any memorandum or communication to you that they heard -Ruby say anything beyond what you have described Mr. Sorrels to say? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. If your records show that the first time any such -information was communicated to you, was around February 18, 1964, -would you think that was a correct record? - -Mr. CURRY. Perhaps it is. When Sorrels, if that is when he says it is -when it was, perhaps that is when it was. But this was prior to Ruby's -trial that I know that he came forward with this information and he -said, "It is possible they can use this testimony in the trial of -Ruby", but he didn't feel like that he could testify to it because he -had not warned him of his constitutional rights. - -But that these officers were present, and if they overheard it, then he -said, "You ought to at least talk to Henry Wade about it and he might -be able to get that in his testimony on that basis." - -Mr. RANKIN. You think that Dean was one of the officers involved who -overheard it? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe he was. - -Mr. RANKIN. And who else? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't recall now. It is in our reports. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was the officer Archer? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe Officer Archer was there. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was it Officer Newcomb? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe so. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you believe whether they testified to something like -that at the trial? - -Mr. CURRY. I was not present during the trial but I understand they did -testify. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not those officers made a report -about what they knew about the killing of Oswald prior to February 18? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't believe they did. - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't think they made any report to you or to the FBI -or anybody else? - -Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. RANKIN. So if they did not include such information in any report -or statement prior to February 18, 1964, you don't know it? - -Mr. CURRY. That is correct, I do not know it. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I ask, when was, has there been testimony as to when -Agent Sorrels told the chief that he had heard this? - -Mr. RANKIN. I don't recall the date. - -Mr. CURRY. But it was--I don't recall the date but it was sometime -after the shooting of Oswald. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was it 1 day or 2 days? - -Mr. CURRY. It was several days but it was prior to the trial of Jack -Ruby. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was it a week later? - -Mr. CURRY. I would say perhaps it was more than a week later, it was -several weeks, I would say, but prior to the trial, Sorrels talked to -me and he said that this may be important in a trial of the case. - -"Some of the things that Ruby told me immediately following the -shooting of Oswald," and he said, "I don't think I can testify to -it, but you might talk to Mr. Wade and he might be able to get the -testimony entered because these officers were not talking they just -overheard the conversation." - -Mr. McCLOY. This was a substantial period after the date? - -Mr. CURRY. The assassination. - -Mr. McCLOY. The date of the assassination? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. And the date that Sorrels was alleged to have heard this -from Ruby? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was it before or after Christmas? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe it was after Christmas. I just couldn't be sure -because I was not---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Where did the conversation occur? - -Mr. CURRY. On the telephone. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was anybody present? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir. - -Mr RANKIN. Did you make a written record of the information? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I just told Chief Stevenson, who is in charge of -criminal investigation, to attempt to determine who was present at that -time; that Oswald was--I mean that Ruby was talking to Sorrels, and to -see what they heard at that time, which they did, and the officers then -made a report. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell Chief Stevenson at that time what Sorrels had -told you? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he made any record of it? - -Mr. CURRY. I doubt that he did. - -Mr. RANKIN. You haven't tried to find out? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I haven't. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any practice in the police force about -recording statements by the accused in first-degree murder cases? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now changing to another subject, do you recall--you said -that you had made some comments upon the evidence in regard to Oswald -and to the media--do you recall what you said about that? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe I told them it had been reported that we had an -FBI report that they had been able to trace that weapon where he had -ordered it from Chicago, and it had been picked up under the name of -Hidell and that the handwriting was the same on the order blank as -Oswald's. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was this told to a news conference or over the TV? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, the TV was there. It was not a news conference. I was -walking down the hall, and they surrounded me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them anything else about the evidence you had -against Oswald? - -Mr. CURRY. I only told them I believed that we had some other evidence, -but I didn't tell them what it was. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever tell them any more about the evidence that you -had against Oswald? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't believe so; I don't recall it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever tell them about the evidence you had against -Oswald concerning the Tippit shooting? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I don't believe I made any comment. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know about when this was made, these statements were -made about the evidence? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe this was on Friday, the 22d, during the late -evening. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is it a common practice for you or someone for the police -department to tell about the evidence that you had? - -Mr. CURRY. It wouldn't be an uncommon practice. There is no law against -it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you often do it then? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, I would say this was not really unusual. It might -be--this was an exceptional case; ordinarily I am not involved in -these investigations or in making statements, but this would not be an -unusual thing to say. - -Mr. RANKIN. Someone from the police department often does it; is that -right? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, frequently, if they are asked about it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether it is possible to monitor conversations -between the prisoner and the visitor on the intercom? - -Mr. CURRY. Not by intercom. It would be--they are brought into--when a -prisoner is brought in to visit with an attorney or a relative he is -placed on one side of a wall and the prisoner--I mean the visitor--on -the other side, but we don't have any means of recording this. They -talk through by telephone. There is a glass that separates them. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you monitor any conversations between Lee Oswald and -his brother Robert, or Lee Oswald and Marina at any time? - -Mr. CURRY. I did not, and I don't know of any. We don't have any way of -doing it. I mean we have no setup for doing this. - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't know of any that was done? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. RANKIN. In regard to arrangements, do you know the Texas law as to -how soon after an arrest an arraignment is required? - -Mr. CURRY. Excuse me now; I am not an attorney. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. CURRY. It is my understanding that, so far in Texas, being brought -immediately before a magistrate would be during the normal course of -that court's business. - -Mr. RANKIN. Your law---- - -Mr. CURRY. When they are in session. - -Mr. RANKIN. Your law says he shall be brought immediately. - -Mr. CURRY. Immediately, but it has been---- - -Mr. RANKIN. But in interpretation you ordinarily follow a practice -of---- - -Mr. CURRY. During the normal course of the court's business. This was -actually unusual because this type of arraignment--because usually it -would have been later than this, but we were trying to take whatever -precautions we could to see that he was given his--we were not -violating his civil rights. That is the reason that we did arraign him -in the city hall. Ordinarily we would have taken him before a court. - -Mr. RANKIN. I didn't understand you to say that the justice of the -peace told him he had a right to counsel or said anything about that. - -Mr. CURRY. I don't recall whether he did or whether he did not. He read -all this to him. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is, he read the complaint to him? - -Mr. CURRY. The complaint, and I don't recall what all he said to him. - -Mr. RANKIN. So, according to the practice in Texas at the time that -he was taken for arraignment would have been the usual practice or a -little earlier? - -Mr. CURRY. A little earlier, actually. - -Mr. McCLOY. Were you present at any investigation or interrogation of -Ruby? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I was not. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you hear any further elaboration of this charge that -Oswald made that Hosty had mistreated his wife; what was the nature of -the mistreatment? - -Mr. CURRY. I was not present when this happened. This was told to me, I -think Captain Fritz told me this, and he seemed to gather that he had -more or less sort of browbeat her in interrogating her is what Fritz, -the impression that Fritz got. - -Mr. McCLOY. When was that? Do you have any reason to know--Captain -Fritz will perhaps tell us about it--as to when that interrogation of -Hosty and Mrs. Oswald took place? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. You don't take normally any tape recordings of witnesses' -examinations? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. I guess that is all, except the general question I have -of Chief Curry. Do you know anything else with respect to this whole -matter that you think would be of any help to this Commission in -getting at the facts? - -Mr. CURRY. Not that I know of, except to say we were extremely sorry -that, of course, this thing happened in Dallas. We thought we were -taking every normal precaution that we could take to insure the safety -of the President in cooperating with the Secret Service and all other -agencies and we felt like we had done a good job. - -After the assassination and the murder of our officer, that our -officers had done a good job in making a quick apprehension of the -alleged person guilty of this, and that we will have to admit that -although we thought that adequate precautions had been taken for the -transfer of this prisoner, that one of our officers momentarily stepped -away from his post of duty, and that during this moment of negligence -on his part, as far as we could determine Ruby went down the ramp, the -Main Street ramp, and concealed himself behind some news media and -detectives and as Oswald was brought out he stepped forward and shot -him. - -And if we had it to do over again, and I think this, that some policy -should be set up for the news media, whereby if anything of this -magnitude ever occurs again, that we would not be plagued by the -confusion present that was present at that time, and that the news -media should accept some of the responsibility for these things and -agree among themselves to have representatives that can report back to -them. - -Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, I am not quite clear about the situation with -regard to your practices in the police force, and the news media. -I understand what happened, as you described it at the time of the -episodes that we have been going into, and I understand that you would, -if there was a matter of this magnitude again--you would expect and -want a very different change? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And eliminate the interference by the news media? - -Mr. CURRY. That is right. - -Mr. RANKIN. But what do you do now about the ordinary case? Have you -changed your practices about the media at all? - -Mr. CURRY. Not the ordinary cases; no. - -Mr. RANKIN. And do they use the radio and TV in the police headquarters? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; they do. - -Mr. RANKIN. And they, the reporters, come in, and it is just the -difference between a great many? - -Mr. CURRY. And a few is what made the difference in this. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you permit reporters now to come in and interrogate -prisoners as they did in this case by holding a microphone up to their -mouth and saying, "How did you do it?" - -Mr. CURRY. They do the same as they do here; on the way from the -interrogation room to the jail elevator as they pass by they might run -along and ask him questions and try to get him to answer. - -Mr. RANKIN. That could be done today just the same? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. Because we have no way of keeping them out of the -public halls. - -Mr. RANKIN. Don't you have jurisdiction as chief of police to exclude -them if you thought it was the wise thing to do? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. Now if I had it to do over again, of course, I would -exclude it. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you could do it today in the ordinary case if you -wanted to? - -Mr. CURRY. I would probably have my hide taken off by the news media, -but I could do it. - -Mr. RANKIN. So, it is really a problem of weighing what the media will -do to you against other considerations? - -Mr. CURRY. And this, too; it seemed like there was a great demand by -the general public to know what was going on. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. And that is what you were trying to satisfy? - -Mr. CURRY. That is what I was trying to do. - -Mr. RANKIN. Those are all the questions. - -Mr. McCLOY. I don't think I have anything else. - -Mr. RANKIN. Thank you very much, Chief, for all of your help. - -Mr. CURRY. Thank you for your consideration. - -Mr. RANKIN. I want to offer the Exhibits 701 through 708, both -inclusive. - -Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibits Nos. 701 through 708 were received in evidence.) - - -TESTIMONY OF J. W. FRITZ - -Mr. McCLOY. You know the purpose of what we are here for, captain? - -Mr. FRITZ. I think so. - -Mr. McCLOY. We have a very broad mandate to look into all the -circumstances relating to these unfortunate incidents that occurred in -Dallas on November 22 last year, and thereafter. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. And we have had Chief Curry on this morning, as I am sure -you understand, and we would like to continue our investigation through -you. We understand that you were in very direct contact with this -problem of investigation, and I will ask you to stand and raise your -right hand, sir. - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this hearing will -be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please? - -Mr. FRITZ. J. W. Fritz. - -Mr. BALL. Where do you live? - -Mr. FRITZ. I live in Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. Could you tell us something about yourself; tell us where you -were born and what your education is and what your training has been as -a police officer? - -Mr. FRITZ. I was born in Dublin, Tex., and lived there for several -years. My father moved to New Mexico, and I grew up at Lake Arthur, N. -Mex. And then I came back to Texas, and came to the police department -in January of 1921, and have been there ever since. - -Mr. BALL. You started as a patrolman, did you, in the Dallas Police -Department? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I started as a patrolman, worked as a patrolman -approximately 2 years, I am not sure of the exact time and I was then -moved to the detectives' office and have come up through the ranks -there, up and down. - -Mr. BALL. You are now a captain of police, are you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Captain of homicide and robbery bureau; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you held that office? - -Mr. FRITZ. Since it was set up, I believe, in 1932 or 1933, I am not -sure. - -Mr. BALL. You have been head of homicide and robbery detail since 1932 -or 1933? - -Mr. FRITZ. That is right. I have had other jobs, too. One time I had -the whole CID; they didn't call it CID at that time; they called it -detectives' office, but I kept the homicide and robbery under my -supervision during that time. I later went back with the homicide and -robbery, full time. - -Mr. BALL. Is there a division of detectives separate from homicide and -robbery? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, we call it now the CID. It would be ordinarily called -the detective division; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who is in charge of that? - -Mr. FRITZ. Who is in charge of it? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. Of course, we are all directly under the chief, and Chief -Stevenson is the head of the CID, M. W. Stevenson. - -Mr. BALL. Have you had any special training in police schools or places -like that? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, of course, I have had a good many years of experience, -and I attempted, I still go to school to our police schools, and I now -attend seminars at different places, Oklahoma University and Texas -University and go to most any training school that is available. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you had been told the President or -before November 22, 1963, you had been told that the President was -coming to Dallas? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And had you taken certain precautions for his safety? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, we had taken some precautions but those were changed. -We were told in the beginning that we would be in the parade directly -behind it, I don't know whether it was the second or third car, but the -Vice President's car, that we would be directly behind that, and we did -make preparation for that. - -But at 10 o'clock the night before the parade, Chief Stevenson called -me at home and told me that had been changed, and I was assigned with -two of my officers to the speakers' stand at the Trade Mart. - -Mr. BALL. Was most of your work out at the Trade Mart that day? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, we didn't have a great deal of work to do there, other -than check the speakers' stand and make a check to see if everything -was all right before the President got there. He would have been there -in 10 more minutes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you check the waiters who had been hired? - -Mr. FRITZ. That wasn't my job. - -Mr. BALL. Someone else did? - -Mr. FRITZ. Someone else did; yes. - -Mr. BALL. How many men did you have assigned? - -Mr. FRITZ. Where? - -Mr. BALL. With you at the Trade Mart. - -Mr. FRITZ. Two. - -Mr. BALL. Who were they? - -Mr. FRITZ. Detectives Sims and Boyd. - -Mr. BALL. And they are both homicide? - -Mr. FRITZ. Both homicide officers; yes. I had other officers assigned -to different places. I had two of my officers assigned to ride in the -car that was in front of the parade a half mile, with Chief Lumpkin. -That was Senkel and Turner. - -Mr. BALL. You were at the Trade Mart when you heard the President had -been shot? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That was about what time you heard that? You have a little -notebook there. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I have a notebook. - -Mr. BALL. Did you make notes as of that time? - -Mr. FRITZ. We made this, not at that time, we made this after the -tragedy. - -Mr. BALL. How long after? - -Mr. FRITZ. We started on it real soon after, and we have been working -on it ever since. - -Mr. BALL. Did somebody assist you in the preparation of that notebook? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who was that? - -Mr. FRITZ. I had several officers assist me with this, and some -secretaries, of course, that helped us with it. I had my lieutenant, T. -L. Baker, help me to put this book together, this larger book, I think -you have a copy of it there, and to make some additional books like -this. - -Of course, we worked the whole office ever since it happened so it is -hard to say just who helped. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the book you are talking about is a notebook that you -have with you, the book at which you are looking now? - -Mr. FRITZ. This is the book I am talking about. - -Mr. BALL. You made a formal report, didn't you, to the attorney general -of Texas? - -Mr. FRITZ. We, we didn't make it for the attorney general of Texas. -At the time we made this we were just making, we were told that we -would probably need a report for this investigation, and we started -immediately to making this. We didn't know at that time the attorney -general would need one of these but when we were told he would need one -we, of course, sent him one, too. - -Mr. BALL. What I want to do is distinguish between the books you are -looking at for this record. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You have a book that is of some size there? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you call that what? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, "Investigation of the Assassination of President -Kennedy." - -Mr. BALL. That is the same as Commission's Document No. 81B. So, then, -you have a smaller book before you, haven't you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes; a little index book. - -Mr. BALL. An index. - -Mr. FRITZ. It really is an index book for this larger file but it is -kind of a quick reference book. - -Mr. BALL. I see. Now, what time did you, what time was it that you -heard the President had been shot? - -Mr. FRITZ. I show that he was shot at 12:35, and one of the Secret -Service men who was assigned the same location where we were assigned, -got a little call on his, evidently got a call on his little transistor -radio and Chief Stevenson, who was also assigned to some part of the -building there, came to me and told me that the President had been hit -at the underpass, and asked me to go to the hospital and see what I -could do. - -Mr. BALL. You say you know he was shot at 12:35? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You mean that is the time you heard about it? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, we heard about it immediately after that, and we -arrived and we checked---- - -Mr. BALL. What time did you hear about it? - -Mr. FRITZ. Just when Chief Stevenson came to me and told me. - -Mr. BALL. Did you make a note of it at the time? - -Mr. FRITZ. No sir; I didn't make a note of it at the time. - -Mr. BALL. When you heard of this what did you do? - -Mr. FRITZ. Immediately left, and I told the two officers with me, Mr. -Sims and Boyd that we would run to our police car that was parked -nearby, listened to radio call to see whether it was a hoax or whether -it was the truth. It was only 10 minutes' time for the President's -arrival, we didn't want to leave unless this was a genuine call, and a -true call. - -When we got to the radio, of course, we began to get other news. We -went to Parkland Hospital as we had been instructed, and as we drove -up in front of the hospital, we I suppose intercepted the chief, Chief -Curry, between the curb and the hospital, and I told him we had had a -call to the hospital but I felt we were going to the wrong place, we -should go to the scene of the crime and he said, "Well, go ahead," so I -don't think our car ever quit rolling but we went right to the scene of -the crime. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go directly to a building? - -Mr. FRITZ. Directly to the Texas School Book Depository Building. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you arrive there? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, sir; we arrived there--we arrived at the hospital at -12:45, if you want that time, and at the scene of the offense at 12:58. - -Mr. BALL. 12:58; the Texas School Book Depository Building. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Were there any officers there at the time? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. In the front? - -Mr. FRITZ. Several officers; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know who they were? - -Mr. FRITZ. I couldn't give you the name of all of them. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got to this building? - -Mr. FRITZ. Some officer told us they thought he was in that building, -so we had our guns---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Thought who was in the building? - -Mr. FRITZ. The man who did the shooting was in the building. So, we, -of course, took our shotguns and immediately entered the building and -searched the building to see if we could find him. - -Mr. BALL. Were there guards on the doors of the building at that time? - -Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure, but I don't--there has been some question -about that, but the reason I don't think that--this may differ with -someone else, but I am going to tell you what I know. - -Mr. BALL. All right. - -Mr. McCLOY. By all means. - -Mr. FRITZ. After I arrived one of the officers asked me if I would like -to have the building sealed and I told him I would. - -Mr. BALL. What officer was that? - -Mr. FRITZ. That is a uniformed officer, but I don't know what his -name was, he was outside, of course, I went upstairs and I don't know -whether he did because I couldn't watch him. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. FRITZ. We began searching the floors, looking for anyone with a gun -or looked suspicious, and we searched through hurriedly through most -all the floors. - -Mr. McCLOY. Which floor did you start with? - -Mr. FRITZ. We started at the bottom; yes, sir. And, of course, and I -think we went up probably to the top. - -Different people would call me when they would find something that -looked like something I should know about and I ran back and forth from -floor to floor as we were searching, and it wasn't very long until -someone called me and told me they wanted me to come to the front -window, the corner window, they had found some empty cartridges. - -Mr. BALL. That was on the sixth floor? - -Mr. FRITZ. That is right; the sixth floor, corner window. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do? - -Mr. FRITZ. I told them not to move the cartridges, not to touch -anything until we could get the crime lab to take pictures of them just -as they were lying there and I left an officer assigned there to see -that that was done, and the crime lab came almost immediately, and took -pictures, and dusted the shelfs for prints. - -Mr. BALL. Which officers, which officer did you leave there? - -Mr. FRITZ. Carl Day was the man I talked to about taking pictures. - -Mr. BALL. Day? - -Mr. FRITZ. Lieutenant Day; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know whether he took the pictures or not? - -Mr. FRITZ. I feel like he did but I don't know because I didn't stay to -see whether he could. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't know whether he took the pictures? - -Mr. FRITZ. I went on searching the building. I just told them to -preserve that evidence and I went right ahead. - -Mr. BALL. What happened after that? - -Mr. FRITZ. A few minutes later some officer called me and said they had -found the rifle over near the back stairway and I told them same thing, -not to move it, not to touch it, not to move any of the boxes until we -could get pictures, and as soon as Lieutenant Day could get over there -he made pictures of that. - -Mr. BALL. After the pictures had been taken of the rifle what happened -then? - -Mr. FRITZ. After the pictures had been made then I ejected a live -shell, a live cartridge from the rifle. - -Mr. BALL. And who did you give that to? - -Mr. FRITZ. I believe that I kept that at that time myself. Later I gave -it to the crime lab who, in turn, turned it over to the FBI. - -Mr. BALL. Did you put any marking of yours on the empty cartridge? - -Mr. FRITZ. On that loaded cartridge? - -Mr. BALL. On that loaded cartridge. - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't know, I am not sure, I don't think so. - -Mr. BALL. Was there any conversation you heard that this rifle was a -Mauser? - -Mr. FRITZ. I heard all kinds of reports about that rifle. They called -it most everything. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation right there that day? - -Mr. FRITZ. Right at that time? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. I just wouldn't be sure because there were so many people -talking at the same time, I might have; I am not sure whether I did or -not. - -Mr. BALL. Did you think it was a Mauser? - -Mr. FRITZ. No sir; I knew--you can read on the rifle what it was and -you could also see on the cartridge what caliber it was. - -Mr. BALL. Well, did you ever make any--did you ever say that it was a -7.65 Mauser? - -Mr. FRITZ. No sir; I am sure I did not. - -Mr. BALL. Or did you think it was such a thing? - -Mr. FRITZ. No sir; I did not. If I did, the Mauser part, I won't be too -positive about Mauser because I am not too sure about Mauser rifles -myself. But I am certainly sure that I never did give anyone any -different caliber than the one that shows on the cartridges. - -Mr. BALL. Did you initial the rifle? - -Mr. FRITZ. The rifle; no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't. Who did you give the rifle to after you ejected -this live cartridge? - -Mr. FRITZ. I believe that that rifle, I didn't take the rifle with me, -Lieutenant Day took that rifle, I believe, to the city hall, and later -I asked him to bring it down--I don't believe I ever carried that rifle -to city hall. I believe Lieutenant Day carried it to city hall, anyway -if you will ask him he can be more positive than I. - -Mr. BALL. While you were there Mr. Truly came up to you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; where the rifle was found. That was about the -time we finished Mr. Truly came and told me that one of his employees -had left the building, and I asked his name and he gave me his name, -Lee Harvey Oswald, and I asked his address and he gave me the Irving -address. - -Mr. BALL. This was after the rifle was found? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; after the rifle was found. - -Mr. BALL. Another witness has testified that the rifle was found at -1:22 p.m., does that about accord with your figures or your memory? - -Mr. FRITZ. Let's see, I might have that here. I don't think I have that -time. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have the time at which the shells were found? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't have that time. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there at the Texas School Book -Depository? - -Mr. McCLOY. Can I ask one question there, did you take any precautions -as to fingerprints before you ejected this? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. So in your opinion your fingerprints wouldn't show? - -Mr. FRITZ. He could have taken mine but I let him dust first before I -ejected a shell. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you stay at the Texas School Book Depository -after you found the rifle? - -Mr. FRITZ. After he told me about this man almost, I left immediately -after he told me that. - -Mr. BALL. You left almost immediately after he told you that? - -Mr. FRITZ. Almost after he told me that man, I felt it important to -hold that man. - -Mr. BALL. Did you give descriptions to Sims and Boyd? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I told them to drive me to city hall and see if -the man had a criminal record and we picked up two other officers and -my intentions were to go to the house at Irving. When I got to the city -hall, I asked, because, I will tell you why I asked because while we -were in the building we heard that our officer had been killed, someone -came in and told me, I asked when I got to my office who shot the -officer, and they told me his name was Oswald, and I said, "His full -name?" And they told me and I said, "That is the suspect we are looking -for in the President's killing." - -So, I then called some of my officers to go right quickly, and asked -them about how much evidence we had on the officer's killing and they -told me they had several eye witnesses, and they had some real good -witnesses, and I instructed them to get those witnesses over for -identification just as soon as they could, and for us to prepare a real -good case on the officer's killing so we would have a case to hold him -without bond while we investigated the President's killing where we -didn't have so many witnesses. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you instructed some other officers to go to Irving, -didn't you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. And you told Sims and Boyd to stay with you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I don't believe I sent them to Irving, I have the -names of the officers I sent to Irving. - -Mr. BALL. Who did you send to Irving? - -Mr. FRITZ. To Irving, Officer Stovall, Rose, and Adamcik. - -Mr. BALL. After you had done that what did you do? - -Mr. FRITZ. I sent some officers--you mean right at that time? I also -sent officers over to the Beckley address, you know, as soon as we got -there, I don't believe we had the Beckley address at this part of this -question. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't have it at that time, did you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Not right at this time, but as soon as I got to that address. - -Mr. BALL. Let's come to that a little later and we find out when you -got there. - -Mr. FRITZ. When I got there? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. What did you do after you had sent the officers to -Irving? - -Mr. FRITZ. When I started to talk to this prisoner or maybe just before -I started to talk to him, some officer told me outside of my office -that he had a room on Beckley, I don't know who that officer was, I -think we can find out, I have--since I have talked to you this morning -I have talked to Lieutenant Baker and he says I know maybe who that -officer was, but I am not sure yet. - -Mr. BALL. Some officer told you that he thought this man had a room on -Beckley? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Had he been brought into the station by that time? - -Mr. FRITZ. He was at the station when we got there, you know. - -Mr. BALL. He was? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; so then I talked to him and I asked him where his -room was on Beckley. - -Mr. BALL. Then you started to interrogate Oswald, did you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you called him into your room? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Will you describe the interrogation room, what it looks like -and where it is located? - -Mr. FRITZ. It is on the, room 317, on the third floor of the courts -building, and it isn't a large office. I believe it is 9-1/2 feet by 14 -feet, I have the exact measurements that I think are correct. Glass all -around, and it has a door leading out into a hallway. My secretaries -are seated in the front. There is a lieutenant's office and desk across -the hall from me. To my right and through the back window out of my -office would be the squadroom where the officers write their reports. -And at the end of the hall I have an interrogation room and one -interrogation in back of the squadroom. - -Mr. BALL. Your room opens onto---- - -Mr. FRITZ. A little hallway. - -Mr. BALL. A little hallway? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That is not the main hall that goes through the third floor, -is it? - -Mr. FRITZ. Sir? No, no, a little hallway in the office. - -Mr. BALL. The main corridor on the third floor--your office does not -open onto the main corridor of the third floor, does it? - -Mr. FRITZ. My own office? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; when I say my office, the homicide and robbery -office, my office opens onto the main hallway. - -But my little office, a private office opens into a smaller hallway. - -Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald being kept before you got there, what room -was Oswald in? - -Mr. FRITZ. When I got there he was in the front interrogation room at -the end of the little hall. - -Mr. BALL. Here is a map or a diagram drawn by Chief Curry. It is -Commission Exhibit 701. Take a look at this, is that a diagram of the -floor? - -Mr. FRITZ. This would be my office right here. - -Mr. BALL. That would be the entry to the homicide and robbery? - -Mr. FRITZ. Homicide and robbery bureau. - -Mr. BALL. This is your office? - -Mr. FRITZ. My office opens right here. - -Mr. BALL. Off of the hall? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Off the homicide and robbery? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes; there should be another line, wait just a minute. There -is a little mistake right here, would it be all right if I correct it? - -Mr. BALL. Go ahead and correct it, your office is farther back from the -hall, isn't it? - -Mr. FRITZ. You see this, coming up from the hall, down at this end -the administrative office, the chief's office, and the dispatcher's -office over here, and over here is the chief's office back here, here -are some assistant chiefs all along here, and in this corner. Now, in -coming down this hall, this is open right in here that makes a square -that goes into the other building in city hall, and this comes to the -elevators, the elevators are right here. - -Now then, right here in this little jail office, a little small office -for the jail elevators right here, and two toilets right here. Now -then, this should have a hallway in here like that, beginning right -here. - -Mr. BALL. You are adding to Chief Curry's map showing a little hallway? - -Mr. FRITZ. That is right. This is the lieutenant's office right here. - -Mr. BALL. You are marking "Lieutenant's office." - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and that is his--that is placed there just like -my office is, and right at the end of this hall, right here, using a -little part of that probably, but in there is a little conference room -right in here which comes clear across here. - -Here, I have a desk, a metal desk with all the records, daily record, -the working records stacked right on here for the benefit of the -officers who work in this squadroom right here with these desks. - -Mr. BALL. Where is the door to your office? - -Mr. FRITZ. Here is the door to my office right here. - -Mr. BALL. Mark that, please. Show me where Oswald was kept. - -Mr. FRITZ. In this little place right here. - -Mr. BALL. Put a big X there where Oswald was kept. - -Mr. FRITZ. At first? - -Mr. BALL. At first. - -Mr. FRITZ. He was there when I came in. We didn't keep him there long. - -Mr. BALL. That was only a few steps from your office? - -Mr. FRITZ. Only a few steps. That is where he was when I came into the -office. - -Mr. BALL. In the room marked "X" on this Exhibit No. 701 is where he -was? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. After a few moments you had him come in, in a little while, -to your office? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have that in time when he came into your office? - -Mr. FRITZ. The chief's map would have been, I could have made this -better if I had used the chief's map and put the lieutenant's office -over here. - -Mr. BALL. Don't worry about it. That is close enough. We have him from -X which is the conference room into your office. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes; my desk is right here and I sit behind it right here -and there are some chairs and telephone table right here and I had him -sitting in a chair, right here. - -Mr. BALL. Right beside you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I have other chairs along here. - -Mr. BALL. All right. - -Now, Captain, about what time did you first bring him to your office? - -Mr. FRITZ. Let's see, I have it right here. Oswald was arrested at 1:40 -and I think he was taken to the city hall about 2:15 and I started -talking to him probably a little bit after that. - -Mr. BALL. About what time? - -Don't you have a time marked in your report there? - -Mr. FRITZ. I think so. - -Mr. BALL. Of 2:25. - -Mr. FRITZ. 2:25? - -Mr. BALL. On page 237 of your report, your report of Sims and Boyd -refers to a time that he was brought to your room, and I believe 165. - -Mr. FRITZ. My report, my report should have a report right there that -should show it. This shows here 2:15 and I don't think that is right. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Baker's report on 165 gives the time also. - -Mr. FRITZ. The nearest that I have here then would be shortly after -2:15 p.m. - -Mr. BALL. You will notice that Sims and Boyd make it, state they -brought him from the conference room to your office at about 2:20. - -Mr. FRITZ. That might be all right because I have 2:15 here but I think -2:15 may be 5 or 10 minutes too early. - -Mr. BALL. It was soon after you got there? - -Mr. FRITZ. Soon after I got there. - -Mr. BALL. That you brought him into your office? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who was present when you talked with him? - -Mr. FRITZ. At that time, when I first brought him in there there would -be Sims and Boyd and probably one or two officers from the office, I -am not sure, just who else might have been there. I know those two, I -am sure, I believe those two were there. Just about the time I started -talking to him, I had just started to question him, I got a phone -call from Mr. Shanklin, Gordon Shanklin, agent in charge of the FBI -calling for Mr. Bookhout, and I asked Mr. Bookhout to go to pick up the -extension. - -Mr. BALL. Was Mr. Bookhout there? - -Mr. FRITZ. He had just come into the lieutenant's office and Mr. -Shanklin asked that Mr. Hosty be in on that questioning, he said he -wanted him in there because of Mr. Hosty knowing these people and he -had been talking to them and he wanted him in there right then. - -So, I got up from my desk and walked over to the lieutenant's office -and asked Mr. Bookhout to come in, the reason I asked both of them to -come in and Mr. Bookhout is in my office most of every day and works -with us in a lot of cases and asked him to come in with Mr. Hosty. - -Mr. BALL. So Bookhout and Hosty came into your office? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was anyone else present? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember whether there was anyone else right at that -time or not. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to Oswald and what he said to -you? - -Mr. FRITZ. I can remember the thing that I said to him and what he said -to me, but I will have trouble telling you which period of questioning -those questions were in because I kept no notes at the time, and these -notes and things that I have made I would have to make several days -later, and the questions may be in the wrong place. - -Mr. BALL. What is your best memory of what you said to him when he -first came in? - -Mr. FRITZ. I first asked him as I do of most people something about -where he was from, and where he was raised and his education, and I -asked him where he went to school and he told me he went to school in -New York for a while, he had gone to school in Fort Worth some, that -he didn't finish high school, that he went to the Marines, and the -Marines, and finished high school training in the Marines. - -And I don't remember just what else. I asked him just the general -questions for getting acquainted with him, and so I would see about how -to talk to him, and Mr. Hosty spoke up and asked him something about -Russia, and asked him if he had been to Russia, and he asked him if he -had been to Mexico City, and this irritated Oswald a great deal and he -beat on the desk and went into a kind of a tantrum. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say when he was asked if he had been to Mexico -City? - -Mr. FRITZ. He said he had not been. He did say he had been to Russia, -he was in Russia, I believe he said for some time. - -Mr. BALL. He said he had not been in Mexico City? - -Mr. FRITZ. At that time he told me he had not been in Mexico City. - -Mr. BALL. Who asked the question whether or not he had been to Mexico -City? - -Mr. FRITZ. Mr. Hosty. I wouldn't have known anything about Mexico City. - -Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about Oswald's wife? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. He said, he told Hosty, he said, "I know you." -He said, "You accosted my wife on two occasions," and he was getting -pretty irritable and so I wanted to quiet him down a little bit because -I noticed if I talked to him in a calm, easy manner it wasn't very hard -to get him to settle down, and I asked him what he meant by accosting, -I thought maybe he meant some physical abuse or something and he said, -"Well, he threatened her." And he said, "He practically told her she -would have to go back to Russia." And he said, "He accosted her on two -different occasions." - -Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about where he lived? - -Mr. FRITZ. Where he lived? Right at that time? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. I am sure I had no way of asking him where he lived but I am -not too sure about that--just how quick he told me because he corrected -me, I thought he lived in Irving and he told me he didn't live in -Irving. He lived on Beckley as the officer had told me outside. - -(At this point Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. FRITZ. And I asked him about that arrangement and I am again, I -can't be too sure when this question was asked. I asked him why his -wife was living in Irving and why he was living on Beckley and he said -she was living with Mrs. Paine. Mrs. Paine was trying to learn to speak -Russian and that his wife, Mrs. Oswald, had a small baby and Mrs. Paine -helped with the baby and his wife taught Mrs. Paine Russian and it -made a good arrangement for both of them and he stayed over in town. -I thought it was kind of an awkward arrangement and I questioned him -about the arrangement a little bit and I asked him how often he went -out there and he said weekends. - -I asked him why he didn't stay out there. He said he didn't want to -stay out there all the time, Mrs. Paine and her husband didn't get -along too well. They were separated a good part of the time and I asked -him if he had a car and he said he didn't have a car, he said the -Paines had two cars but he didn't use their cars. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him anything about his address or did he -volunteer the address? - -Mr. FRITZ. He volunteered the address at Beckley? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, I will tell you, whether we asked him or told him one, -he never did deny it, he never did deny the Beckley Street address at -all. The only thing was he didn't know whether it was north or south. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him whether it was north or south? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, but he didn't know. But from the description of -surroundings we could tell it was North Beckley. - -Mr. BALL. Up to that time you hadn't sent any men out to North Beckley, -had you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, I sent them out there real soon and Officer Potts -called me back from out there and talked to me on the telephone and -gave me a report from out there on the telephone, and I am sure that -that is the time that he told me about the way he was registered, and I -asked Oswald about why he was registered under this other name. - -Mr. BALL. What other name? - -Mr. FRITZ. Of O. L. Lee. - -Mr. BALL. O. H. Lee? - -Mr. FRITZ. O. H. Lee. He said, well, the lady didn't understand him, -she put it down there and he just left it that way. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him whether he had signed his name O. H. Lee? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, I hadn't asked him. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know that he had personally registered? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. BALL. He said the lady didn't understand him? - -Mr. FRITZ. He said the lady didn't understand him and he just left it -that way. - -Mr. BALL. How long did this first questioning take? - -Mr. FRITZ. Of course, I talked to him several times during that -afternoon. I would have to go out and talk to every officer and give -them different assignments and talk to them about these witnesses, and -help some in getting the witnesses over there. - -I also asked Lieutenant Day to bring the rifle down after I sent after -Mrs. Oswald, and had her to look at the rifle. She couldn't identify -it positively but she said it looked like the rifle that he had, but -she couldn't say for sure. She said she thought he brought it from New -Orleans. - -Mr. BALL. How long a time did you sit with Oswald and question him this -first time? - -Mr. FRITZ. The first time, not but a few minutes. - -Mr. BALL. That was the time Hosty and Bookhout were there? - -Mr. FRITZ. That is right. But sometimes when I would leave the office -to do something else, it is hard to imagine how many things we had -happening at the one time or how many different officers we had doing -different things without seeing it but we were terribly busy. - -I had called all my officers back on duty and had every one of them -assigned to something, so going back and forth kept me pretty busy -running back and forth at the time of questioning. - -I don't know when I would leave, I suppose Mr. Bookhout and Mr. Hosty -asked him a few questions, but I don't believe they questioned him a -great deal while I was gone. - -Mr. BALL. You said just a few minutes, what did you mean by that, 15, -20, 25? - -Mr. FRITZ. It would be pretty hard to guess at a time like that because -we weren't even quitting for lunch so I don't even know, time didn't -mean much right at that time. For a few minutes, you would think 30 or -40 minutes the first time. - -Mr. BALL. Thirty or forty minutes? - -Mr. FRITZ. I am guessing at that time. - -Mr. BALL. He hadn't been searched up to that time, had he? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he had been searched. - -Mr. BALL. Wasn't he searched later in the jail office? - -Mr. FRITZ. He was searched, the officers who arrested him made the -first search, I am sure. He had another search at the building and I -believe that one of my officers, Mr. Boyd, found some cartridges in his -pocket in the room after he came to the city hall. I can't tell you the -exact time when he searched him. - -Mr. BAIL. You don't have the record of the time when he was searched? - -Mr. FRITZ. No. - -Mr. BALL. You remember they found a transfer of Dallas Transit Company? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; found a transfer. - -Mr. BALL. And some bullets? - -Mr. FRITZ. Bullets; yes, sir. Cartridges. - -Mr. BALL. He had an identification bracelet, too, didn't he? - -Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure about that. - -Mr. BALL. You don't remember? - -Mr. FRITZ. No. - -Mr. BALL. You had a showup that afternoon? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I ask what kind of bullets these were? - -Mr. FRITZ. .38, cartridges for a .38 pistol. - -Mr. McCLOY. Pistol? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, pistol cartridges. - -Mr. BALL. You had a showup that afternoon? - -Mr. FRITZ. That first showup was for a lady who was an eye witness and -we were trying to get that showup as soon as we could because she was -beginning to faint and getting sick. - -In fact, I had to leave the office and carry some ammonia across the -hall, they were about to send her to the hospital or something and we -needed that identification real quickly, and she got to feeling all -right after using this ammonia. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember her name? - -Mr. FRITZ. I have her name here. - -Mr. BALL. Was that Mrs. Markham? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, Helen Markham. - -Mr. BALL. That was the first showup, was it? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were you there? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. With her? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Will you tell me what happened there? - -Mr. FRITZ. She looked at these people very carefully, and she picked -him out and made the positive identification. - -Mr. BALL. What did she say? - -Mr. FRITZ. She said that is the man that I saw shoot the officer. - -Mr. BALL. Who did she point out? - -Mr. FRITZ. She pointed out Oswald; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. In your showup room you have the prisoners separated from the -visitors? - -Mr. FRITZ. There is a screen. They are on a stage with numbers over -their heads for identification, and measurements to show their height, -and this is lighted back there so the people can see them plainly, -and the people who are looking at them usually sit at desks out some -distance, probably as far as here from that window from the showup -screen. - -Mr. BALL. Near the window, you mean about 15, 20 feet. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes; about that far. - -Mr. BALL. And then, now in this showup there were two officers of the -vice squad and an officer and a clerk from the jail that were in the -showup with Oswald? - -Mr. FRITZ. That is true. I borrowed those officers, I was a little bit -afraid some prisoner might hurt him, there was a lot of excitement and -a lot of feeling right about that time so we didn't have an officer in -my office the right size to show with him so I asked two of the special -service officers if they would help me and they said they would be glad -to, so they took off their coats and neckties and fixed themselves -where they would look like prisoners and they were good enough to stand -on each side of him in the showup and we used a man who works in the -jail office, a civilian employee as a third man. - -Mr. BALL. Now, were they dressed a little better than Oswald, do you -think, these three people? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, I don't think there was a great deal of difference. -They had on their regular working clothes and after they opened their -shirts and took off their ties, why they looked very much like anyone -else. - -Mr. BALL. They were all handcuffed together, were they? - -Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure, I don't remember for sure if they were all -handcuffed together or not. They probably did. I couldn't be positive -about that. - -Mr. BALL. Now, after you had had the showup with Helen Markham, did you -question Oswald again? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. In your office? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Go directly from the showup room up there? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, I am not sure whether directly, but shortly, there -wouldn't be too much time when we talk to him after that. - -Mr. BALL. Your records show the showup for Helen Markham was 4:45. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you think that is about right? - -Mr. FRITZ. I think that is about right. - -Mr. BALL. All right, now how long after that would you say you went -back to your office and talked to him again? - -Mr. FRITZ. I would say within, it would take us a few minutes, you -know, to get him back from the showup, probably 15 minutes, something -like that. - -Mr. BALL. Who was present? - -Mr. FRITZ. Twenty minutes. - -Mr. BALL. Who was present at this questioning? - -Mr. FRITZ. This particular questioning? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. I believe--I don't want to be sure about whether Mr. Hosty -stayed at this next time or not because he left at some time. Mr. -Bookhout stayed and my officers were there. - -Mr. BALL. Now, there was a time when you asked him where he worked and -what he did? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And was that the first---- - -Mr. FRITZ. That was the first time. - -Mr. BALL. The first question--what did he tell you about that? - -Mr. FRITZ. He told me he worked at the Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. BALL. Did he tell you---- - -Mr. FRITZ. I asked him how he got his job down there, too. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. FRITZ. He told me that someone that he knew, a lady that he knew -recommended him for that job and he got that job through her. I believe -the records show something else but that is what he told me. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the -employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he -didn't think--I also asked him why he left the building. He said there -was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be -any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't -keep very close time on our work and I just left." - -Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, -Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor? - -Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. -Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he -told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him -on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him -in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held -his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and -the officer let him go. - -Mr. BALL. Did you question Oswald about that? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him about that and he knew that the -officer stopped him all right. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom? - -Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich -and a Coca-Cola. - -Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola? - -Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola. - -Mr. BALL. That same time you also asked him about the rifle. - -Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure that is the time I asked him about the rifle. -I did ask him about the rifle sometime soon after that occurred, and -after the showup; I am not sure which time I asked him about the rifle. - -Mr. BALL. Did you bring the rifle down to your office? - -Mr. FRITZ. Not to him; not for him to see. - -Mr. BALL. You never showed it to him? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir. I asked him if he owned a rifle and he said he did -not. I asked him if he had ever owned a rifle. He said a good many -years ago he owned a small rifle but he hadn't owned one for a long -time. I asked him if he owned a rifle in Russia and he said, "You know -you can't own a rifle in Russia." He said, "I had a shotgun over there. -You can't own a rifle in Russia." And he denied owning a rifle of any -kind. - -Mr. BALL. Didn't he say that he had seen a rifle at the building? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me he had seen a rifle at the building 2 -or 3 days before that Mr. Truly and some men were looking at. - -Mr. BALL. You asked him why he left the building, didn't you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. He told you because he didn't think there would be any work? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he did after he left the building? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to -North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes -and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his -pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." -Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just -about it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he killed Tippit? - -Mr. FRITZ. Sir? - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he shot Tippit? - -Mr. FRITZ. Oh, yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say. - -Mr. FRITZ. He denied it--that he did not. The only thing he said he had -done wrong, "The only law I violated was in the show; I hit the officer -in the show; he hit me in the eye and I guess I deserved it." He said, -"That is the only law I violated." He said, "That is the only thing I -have done wrong." - -Mr. BALL. Now, in this first conversation he told you that he had lived -at 1026 Beckley, didn't he? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. He didn't know whether it was north or south. - -Mr. BALL. And you sent a group of officers out there to search that -address? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; that is right. - -Mr. BALL. Before you talked to him the second time you had talked to -Potts on the telephone, had you not? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I had. - -Mr. BALL. He told you what he had done? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. I should have remembered that when I talked to you -this morning. - -Mr. BALL. Wasn't there some conversation also about what his political -beliefs were? - -Mr. FRITZ. I believe that is later. I asked him about his political -beliefs and he said that he believed in fair play for Cuba. He said -he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba organization. They had -headquarters in New York, had an office in New Orleans. - -At one time he had been secretary for this organization down there. I -asked him if he belonged to any other organizations of any kind, and he -said he belonged to the American Civil Liberties Union, and I asked him -what dues he paid. He said, "$5 per month." I believe he said, or for a -year. I am not positive about that. I would have to look at my notes. - -Mr. BALL. Was that at the first or second questioning? - -Mr. FRITZ. I think it was the second or third; that was later. - -Mr. BALL. Later on? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. I don't think I talked to him about his political -beliefs until later. - -Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to him about an attorney the first time -you talked to him? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the first time. He asked about an attorney, and -I told him he certainly could have an attorney any time he wanted it. -I told him he could have an attorney any time he liked, any attorney -he wanted. I told him, I said, we will do it. He said he wanted an -attorney in New York. And he gave me his name, Mr. Abt, and he said -that is who he wanted, and I told him he could have anyone he liked. He -said, well, he knew about a case that he had handled some years ago, -where he represented the people who had violated the Smith Act, and he -said, "I don't know him personally, but that is the attorney I want." - -He said, "If I can't get him then I may get the American Civil -Liberties Union to get me an attorney." - -Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about calling him on the telephone? - -Mr. FRITZ. A little bit later. - -Mr. BALL. Not that time? - -Mr. FRITZ. Not that minute. A little bit later, he asked something -else about an attorney and I said, "Did you call an attorney?" And he -said, "You know I can't use the telephone." And I said, "Yes, you can; -anybody can use a telephone." So, I told them to be sure to let him use -a telephone and the next time I talked to him he thanked me for that, -so I presume he called. - -Mr. BALL. You don't know whether he called? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't know whether he did or not. - -Mr. BALL. When you say a little bit later, you mean another period of -questioning? - -Mr. FRITZ. Sometime during that talk. - -Mr. BALL. You haven't identified these periods of questioning by time. - -Mr. FRITZ. I can't identify them positively. I can do the best I can -by memory, but I wouldn't want to try to answer any of these questions -by time because I might get them in the wrong question and in the -wrong--time span. - -Mr. BALL. At 6:30 you had another showup, at which time McWatters, -Guinyard, and Callaway--do you remember those witnesses? Callaway is -the car salesman, and Sam Guinyard is the porter at the used-car lot at -the corner of Patton and Jefferson, and McWatters is a cabdriver--no; -is a busdriver. - -Mr. FRITZ. We have the names; if those names are right, that is true. -At that time on this showup we put some officers up on the stage with -him; officers stayed on the stage with him during the showup. - -Mr. BALL. I point that time out as 6:30 because it appears that you -started to question Oswald after you had the Markham showup sometime -after 4:35, 4:40, 4:45. Did you question him steadily from then until -6:30, the time of the second showup? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't--I don't believe there was any time when I went -through a very long period without having to step to the door, or step -outside, to get a report from some pair of officers, or to give them -additional assignments. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you keep him; in what room? - -Mr. FRITZ. In my office there. - -Mr. BALL. He was in your office all the time? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; within there. - -Mr. BALL. Between the two showups at 4:35 and 6:30, he was in your -office all the time? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, I believe he was there all that time; let's see, 4:30 -to 6:30; I don't remember him being carried out there any time. - -Mr. BALL. Was he being questioned by somebody all the time, whether you -or somebody else? - -Mr. FRITZ. I doubt it, because I don't think those officers talked to -him very much while I was out of the office, I think they might have -asked him a few questions, but didn't ask him much. - -Mr. BALL. Were you present at the showup when Callaway and Guinyard and -the busdriver were there? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe so. - -Mr. BALL. Now, your records show that in your office at 6:37 there was -an arraignment; do you remember that? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I remember that arraignment. - -Mr. BALL. Will you tell us what happened then? It doesn't show -arraignments. - -Mr. FRITZ. Do you show arraignment for 7:30? - -Mr. BALL. No; 6:30. 7, you discussed, you met with Alexander, the -district attorney's office, didn't you? - -Mr. FRITZ. I probably did. I probably talked to him about the evidence. - -Mr. BALL. He was arraigned at 7:10. - -Mr. FRITZ. He was in our outer office most all the time and I talked to -him two, three different times. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever take part in the questioning of Oswald? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe so; no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What happened at 7:10? - -Mr. FRITZ. 7:10 we had this arraignment with Judge David Johnston, -and present. I was present, and Officers Sims, Boyd, Hall, and Mr. -Alexander from the district attorney's office, and that was in my -office. - -Mr. BALL. How was the arraignment conducted? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, the judge gave him a warning, talked to him for a -little bit. - -Mr. BALL. What warning did he give him? - -Mr. FRITZ. He advised him of his rights. I believe he had a form; I -couldn't repeat it, of course, but I believe he had some forms that he -went over with him. - -Mr. BALL. What rights did he advise him of; do you know? - -Mr. FRITZ. Of his rights for an attorney, and everything that he told -was supposed to be voluntary and things of that kind. - -Mr. BALL. He was advised that he had a right to an attorney, was he? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I am sure he was; I advised him on that on two or -three different occasions. - -Mr. BALL. Did--you have a rule in Texas, do you, that whatever a -witness, a person in custody, says cannot be used against him unless he -is warned? - -Mr. FRITZ. We do have; yes, sir. We have to warn them before we can -use the testimony. We have to warn them in the beginning before he is -questioned. - -Mr. BALL. Before he is questioned you must warn him? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Before you questioned Oswald the first time, did you warn him? - -Mr FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? What were the words you used? - -Mr. FRITZ. I told him that any evidence that he gave me would be used -against him, and the offense for which the statement was made, that it -would have to be voluntary, made of his own accord. - -Mr. BILL. Did he reply to that? - -Mr. FRITZ. He told me that he didn't want a lawyer and he told me once -or twice that he didn't want to answer any questions at all. And once -or twice he did quit answering any questions and he told me he did want -to talk to his attorney, and I told him each time he didn't have to if -he didn't want to. So, later he sometimes would start talking to me -again. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember when you warned him again? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I warned him two or three different times; yes, -sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember when those times were? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; but during the afternoon. - -Mr. BALL. They were--you were more or less continuously questioning -through the afternoon, were you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, at 7:10, he was arraigned in your office? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. By arraign you mean he was informed of the charge against him? - -Mr. FRITZ. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. He wasn't asked to plea. - -Mr. FRITZ. Before a judge, before a justice of the peace, a magistrate. - -Mr. BALL. It is not your practice to ask for a plea at that stage, is -it? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; we don't. - -Mr. BALL. All you do is advise him of his rights and the charge against -him? - -Mr. FRITZ. That is right, I am not a lawyer, you might feel--I don't -want to leave a bad impression, I am just telling you what we do. - -Mr. BALL. What the practice is in Texas. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did Oswald make any reply to Judge Johnston? - -Mr. FRITZ. He said a lot of sarcastic things to him. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. FRITZ. Irritable. I can't remember all the things that he said. He -was that way at each arraignment. He said little sarcastic things, some -of the things were a little impudent things. - -Mr. BALL. After the arraignment, your records show that there was--he -talked to an agent named Clements, do you remember that? - -Mr. FRITZ. I believe that during one of the times when I was out, had -to leave the office for a minute to attend to something, Mr. Clements -asked me if it would be all right for him to take a little personal -history. - -Mr. BALL. Were you present at that time? - -Mr. FRITZ. No. - -Mr. BALL. That was in your office? - -Mr. FRITZ. In the office. - -Mr. BALL. Who was there at the time? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't know. He was there, I know some of my officers were -there, they had to watch him all the time. - -Mr. BALL. Sims and Boyd? - -Mr. FRITZ. If they weren't there, some homicide officers were. - -Mr. BALL. You had two officers with him all times? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; sometimes three. - -Mr. BALL. Always with him in the room? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; all the time. They never questioned him but they -stayed in the room. - -Mr. BALL. Then your records show another showup at 7:50? - -Mr. FRITZ. At what time? - -Mr. BALL. 7:50, that is the third showup. Mrs. Davis---- - -Mr. FRITZ. That would be showup No. 3. - -Mr. BALL. That is showup No. 3. - -Mr. FRITZ. Showup No. 3 was held for Barbara Jean Davis. - -Mr. BALL. And Virginia Davis. - -Mr. FRITZ. Virginia Davis. - -Mr. BALL. Were you there at the time of the showup? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't believe I was there, Mr. Hall, Mr. Sims, -Mr. Boyd, and Mr. Moore. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know who chose the people for the showup there? - -Mr. FRITZ. Who showed the people; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who chose the people. There is a Walter, Richard Walter -Borchgardt. - -Mr. FRITZ. Are those the people you mean for the showup? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't know who chose those people. - -Mr. BALL. Don Braswell and John Abel. - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; that would be done by my officers. - -Mr. BALL. And you don't think you were present at that? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't believe so. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask him if he had kept a rifle in the garage at -Irving? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did. I asked him and I asked him if he had -brought one from New Orleans. He said he didn't. - -Mr. BALL. He did not. - -Mr. FRITZ. That is right. - -I told him the people at the Paine residence said he did have a rifle -out there, and he kept it out there and he kept it wrapped in a blanket -and he said that wasn't true. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember when that was that you asked him? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; during some of those questions. - -Mr. BALL. It was after Stovall and Adamcik had come back? - -Mr. FRITZ. I believe so. - -Mr. BALL. Now, during the evening, did you question him some more? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, I am sure that I did. Let me see. - -Mr. BALL. It shows he was fingerprinted at 8:55. - -Mr. FRITZ. I probably talked to him a little bit more after that. It -shows he was fingerprinted at what time? - -Mr. BALL. 8:55. Or 9 o'clock, around 9 o'clock. Fingerprinted, at that -time there was a paraffin test of the hands and face. - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe he was fingerprinted. I think we made the -paraffin test in my office. - -Mr. BALL. There was a paraffin test. - -Mr. FRITZ. I allowed them to use any office right there to make a -paraffin test. - -Mr. BALL. And your records show he was fingerprinted there, too. - -Mr. FRITZ. It is possible, I didn't stay there with him. He could have. -I don't think they fingerprinted him at that time. I wouldn't see any -need for it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk--you remember Wesley Frazier who came into -the department and made a statement, do you, the boy who---- - -Mr. FRITZ. I think I remember some man. I believe that is his correct -name, some man who came in with some story about seeing Oswald run from -the building. - -Mr. BALL. No. - -Mr. FRITZ. That is not the one? - -Mr. BALL. A boy who lived in Irving who drove Oswald weekends back and -forth from Irving. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You remember you talked to him that night and he told about -a package that Oswald carried into the Texas School Book Depository -Building that morning. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; that is right. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what that was? - -Mr. FRITZ. He said he asked him what it was and he told him it was -curtain rods. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to Oswald about that? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. When? - -Mr. FRITZ. I talked to him about that on the last morning before his -transfer. - -Mr. BALL. That was on Sunday morning? - -Mr. FRITZ. Sunday morning, that would be the 24th, wouldn't it? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. And I asked him about that and he denied having anything -to do with any curtain rods. It is possible that I could have asked -him that on one of those other times, too, but I know I asked him that -question the last morning. - -Mr. BALL. Well, you learned about it on Friday night according to your -reports here when Mr. Frazier came in and you gave Frazier a polygraph -test. - -Mr. FRITZ. I hesitated to ask him about those curtain rods and I will -tell you why I hesitated, because I wanted to find out more about that -package before I got started with the curtain rods because if there -were curtain rods I didn't want to mention it to him but we couldn't -find--I talked to his wife and asked her if they were going to use any -curtain rods, while I was talking to her that afternoon and she didn't -know anything about it. - -No; I believe I talked to Mrs. Paine, one of them. - -Mr. BALL. Do you think you talked to Oswald before Sunday morning about -curtain rods? - -Mr. FRITZ. It is possible but I know I talked to him Sunday morning. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you tell him what Frazier had told you? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't know that I told him what Frazier had told me but I -told him someone had told me. - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? - -Mr. FRITZ. I told him he had a package and put it in the back seat and -it was a package about that long and it was curtain rods. He said he -didn't have any kind of a package but his lunch. He said he had his -lunch and that is all he had, and Mr. Frazier told me that he got out -of the car with that package, he saw him go toward the building with -this long package. - -I asked him, I said, "Did you go toward the building carrying a long -package?" He said, "No. I didn't carry anything but my lunch." - -Mr. BALL. Did Frazier ever tell you how long the package was? - -Mr. FRITZ. He just measured, told me about that long. - -Mr. BALL. Approximately how long? - -Mr. FRITZ. I am guessing at this, the way he measured, probably 26 -inches, 27 inches, something like that. Too short for the length of -that rifle unless he took it down, I presume he took it down if it was -in there, and I am sure it was. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what time you--was it the way Frazier showed -it to you--was it the size of a rifle that was broken down? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; it would be just about right. - -Mr. BALL. Later that night you took him down to the showuproom again, -didn't you, when you had a press interview? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I didn't have a press conference. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't? - -Mr. FRITZ. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did you give any instructions to the press conference? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the chief told me he wanted him brought down for a -press conference, and I told my officers to take them down and I asked -the chief to let me put it on the stage. I was a little bit afraid -something might happen to him in front of that stage, someone in the -crowd might hurt him but he said no, he wanted him out there in the -front, and I told him I would like to put him on the stage so that the -officers could jerk him inside the jail office if anything happened but -he said no, he wanted him in front, so I told the officers to take him -down. - -I went down later to see how everything was going but I couldn't get -in. The crowd had jammed clear back out into the hall. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know what time you sent him up to the jail? - -Mr. FRITZ. I have it here, I think--12:05; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. 12:05? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I ask you a question? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Where was the--where did you first see the gun that was -presumably used in the murder of Tippit? - -Mr. FRITZ. Of Tippit? - -Mr. McCLOY. Tippit, yes; .38-caliber pistol. - -Mr. FRITZ. The officers brought that in, you know, when they brought -him in from the arrest at Oak Cliff. - -Mr. McCLOY. And they had that, you had seen it at about the time you -first saw Oswald? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, a few minutes later. - -Mr. McCLOY. A few minutes later? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. It did show signs from your experience of having been -recently fired? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe you can tell about that too well any more. -You know the old style ammunition you could tell if a gun had been -fired recently by the residue left in the barrel and smelling the -barrel, but with the new ammunition they don't have that. - -Mr. McCLOY. And this was new ammunition that he was using? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he was using new ammunition. - -Mr. McCLOY. Was the gun fully loaded when it was taken from him? - -Mr. FRITZ. I didn't see it loaded, of course, it would have been -unloaded. I understood it was fully loaded, but I didn't see it. - -Mr. DULLES. That is he had replaced the bullets that he had used, is -that it? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the people told us as he ran across the yard he -was reloading the gun as he ran across the yard. Yes; the witnesses -told us that. - -Mr. McCLOY. If I can take you back a little further also. - -Mr. FRITZ. All right, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the gun in the position, the rifle I am talking -about now. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle in the position in which it was found? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. McCLOY. Where was it found? - -Mr. FRITZ. It was found back near the stairway in a little--some boxes -were stacked about this far apart, about that far apart. The rifle -was down on the floor and partially under these boxes back near the -stairway in the corner of the building. - -Mr. McCLOY. This was on the sixth floor? - -Mr. FRITZ. Sixth floor; yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Nobody had touched it by the time you saw it? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; nobody touched it. They called me as soon as they -saw it and I went back there and I saw it. - -Mr. McCLOY. Then you say the rifle was then dusted? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Does that mean the laboratory people had already come there -then? - -Mr. FRITZ. He came down from where he had been; he was on the same -floor checking the empty cartridges, and he came back. - -Mr. McCLOY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. To the back, when I called him, and he came back there and -checked the rifle; yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. When you went up to the sixth floor from which Oswald -apparently had fired these shots, what did it look like there, what was -the--how were things arranged there? Was there anything in the nature -of a gun rest there or anything that could be used as a gun rest? - -Mr. FRITZ. You mean up in the corner where he shot from, from the -window? - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; there were some boxes stacked there and I believe -one box, one small box I believe was in the window, and another box was -on the floor. There were some boxes stacked to his right that more or -less blinded him from the rest of the floor. If anyone else had been on -the floor I doubt if they could have seen where he was sitting. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you see anything other---- - -Mr. FRITZ. Lieutenant Day, of course, made a detailed description of -all of that and he can give it to you much better than I can. - -Mr. McCLOY. He is going to be here? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and he will give it to you in detail; yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. When was the paper bag covering that apparently he brought -the rifle in, was that discovered in the sixth floor about the same -time? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; that was recovered a little later. I wasn't down -there when that was found. - -Mr. DULLES. It was recovered on the sixth floor, was it not? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I believe so. We can check here and see. I believe -it was. But I wasn't there when that was recovered. - -Mr. BALL. Here is a picture of Commission Exhibit 514. - -Mr. FRITZ. That is the--do I have it turned around? - -Mr. BALL. Do you recognize it? - -Mr. FRITZ. That is it. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the scene that was photographed by the crime lab -group? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; that is right. But there is one thing that this -picture is a little bit deceiving in one way. This picture is taken -with a man standing, no doubt, on boxes up high like this, standing -down level on the floor. This gun was partially under the end of those -boxes right there. You see the camera evidently took a picture under -like that, and he got a little more gun than you would see if you were -standing on the floor. - -Mr. BALL. I want to ask you about a showup. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Callaway and Guinyard and McWatters. You did you say you were -present at that showup? That is No. 2. - -Mr. FRITZ. No. 2 showup. I show there Leavelle, Brown, and Dougherty. -It doesn't show that I was at that showup. - -Mr. BALL. You were at that showup? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; it doesn't show. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Callaway before he went to the showup? - -Mr. FRITZ. Callaway--I will have to look there to see. Can you tell me -something about what he has testified? - -Mr. BALL. Callaway is a tall blond man, he was a used car salesman, -used carlot on the corner of Patton and Jefferson. - -Mr. FRITZ. I believe Officer Leavelle talked to him. Any of these -witnesses when I say I didn't talk to them, that doesn't mean I didn't -go out and say something to them but I didn't question them. - -Mr. BALL. Did you say to anyone of these witnesses, "We think we have -got the man that killed Tippit and he is probably the man who killed -the President"? Anything like that? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember saying anything like that. - -Mr. BALL. Did you say, "I want you to look at him good because we want -to make the identification." - -Mr. FRITZ. Oh, no. We didn't need to. The first witness that went down -with me convinced me on the Tippit killing. - -Mr. McCLOY. That is Mrs. Markham? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes; Helen Markham. And she was a real good witness and she -identified him positively and picked him out in a manner that you could -tell she was honest in her identification. - -Mr. BALL. We came up to the time you got him in jail that is at 12:05. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were you through with him at that time? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him again? - -Mr. FRITZ. I believe we had another arraignment, did we not? - -Mr. BALL. You had an arraignment charging him with the assassination of -President Kennedy, murder of President Kennedy. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I went to that arraignment. - -Mr. BALL. That was at what time? I believe you showed it at 1:35 a.m. -in your records. - -Mr. FRITZ. That would be about right. - -Mr. BALL. 1:35? - -Mr. FRITZ. I will tell you in a minute to be sure. I show 1:35. - -Mr. BALL. That was where? - -Mr. FRITZ. In the identification bureau. - -Mr. BALL. Who was present? - -Mr. FRITZ. That is just outside the jail. - -Mr. BALL. Who was present at that time? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, I show Bill Alexander of the district attorney's -office, Henry Wade. That was before Judge Johnston also, and I was -there, and I am sure of three or four other people that I can't name. - -I think Chief Curry might have gone to this, I can't answer for him, -but I believe he might have. - -Mr. BALL. That is one, 1:35 a.m., shortly after midnight was the -arraignment. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, your records show that he was checked in the jail at -1:10 a.m. and it doesn't show a checkout when he was taken to the -arraignment. - -Mr. FRITZ. To the arraignment. It probably wouldn't show that. -Sometimes those cards, I don't usually make cards if the man is still -in the custody of the jailers, and sometimes, of course, they might -miss a card anyway because we use a lot of civilian employees up there. - -Mr. BALL. And the jailer was there with him, wasn't he? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. He brought him out. - -Mr. BALL. Another thing, that day, at sometime during the 22d when you -questioned Oswald, didn't you ask him about this card he had in his -pocket with the name Alek Hidell? - -Mr. FRITZ. I did; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you ask him about that? - -Mr. FRITZ. I believe he had three of those cards if I remember -correctly, and he told me that was the name that he picked up in New -Orleans that he had used sometimes. One of the cards looked like it -might have been altered a little bit and one of them I believe was -the Fair Play for Cuba and one looked like a social security card or -something. - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. We have pictures of those cards here. You no doubt have them. - -Mr. BALL. Yes. We have them. Did he say that he had used that as a name? - -Mr. FRITZ. He told me that is a name he picked up in New Orleans. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say---- - -Mr. FRITZ. I presumed by that he had used it by saying he had picked it -up in New Orleans. - -Mr. BALL. To one officer he said he didn't want to talk about that or -he wouldn't talk about that? - -Mr. FRITZ. That is right. Very often he would do that. He would tell -him some things and tell me some things. - -Mr. BALL. I am talking about this card, A. Hidell. Do you recall -whether he told you he had picked it up in New Orleans and--or did he -tell you he didn't want to talk about it? He wouldn't talk about it? - -Mr. FRITZ. He didn't tell me he wouldn't want to talk about it. He told -me he had picked it up down there and when I questioned further then he -told me he didn't want to talk about it. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the next morning or the next day you questioned him -again, didn't you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Let's see, that would be on the 23d. - -Mr. BALL. You had another showup on the 23d in the afternoon, but -apparently that morning before the showup you talked to him in your -office? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What do your records show as to the first time you talked to -him on November 23? - -Mr. FRITZ. Let's see. - -Mr. BALL. I believe if you will look on page 6 of 137B of your formal -report that will refresh your memory. - -Mr. FRITZ. Which part of this do you want now? - -Mr. BALL. I want to know what time you started to question him on -November 23. - -Mr. FRITZ. I think I can get that time out of the little book. - -Mr. BALL. If you look at the top of page 6 there. - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't have it. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have 137B? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes; I have it. I show 10:25 a.m. - -Mr. BALL. 10:35? - -Mr. FRITZ. 10:25. - -Mr. BALL. 10:25 a.m.? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who was present at this time? Still--look at your notes there. - -Mr. FRITZ. I show here Jim Bookhout, Forrest Sorrels, special agent in -charge of Secret Service. Robert Nash, who is U.S. marshal there in -Dallas, and an officer besides myself. - -Mr. BALL. What officer beside yourself? - -Mr. FRITZ. I have that in here. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me what you talked about this morning on the 23d? You -called him down there for a certain purpose, didn't you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Let's see if this is the morning of the 24th, is it--is this -the 23d or 24th? - -Mr. BALL. This is Saturday morning, the 23d. - -Mr. FRITZ. Saturday morning. - -Mr. BALL. You learned certain things from your investigation of the day -before, hadn't you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. One of them was you found he had a transfer, didn't you, in -his pocket when he was arrested? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I sure talked to him about the transfers. - -Mr. BALL. All right. What did he say? - -Mr. FRITZ. He admitted the transfer. - -Mr. BALL. I don't want you to say he admitted the transfer. I want you -to tell me what he said about the transfer. - -Mr. FRITZ. He told me that was the transfer the busdriver had given -him when he caught the bus to go home. But he had told me if you will -remember in our previous conversation that he rode the bus or on North -Beckley and had walked home but in the meantime, sometime had told me -about him riding a cab. - -So, when I asked him about a cab ride if he had ridden in a cab he said -yes, he had, he told me wrong about the bus, he had rode a cab. He -said the reason he changed, that he rode the bus for a short distance, -and the crowd was so heavy and traffic was so bad that he got out and -caught a cab, and I asked him some other questions about the cab and -I asked him what happened there when he caught the cab and he said -there was a lady trying to catch a cab and he told the busdriver, the -busdriver told him to tell the lady to catch the cab behind him and he -said he rode that cab over near his home, he rode home in a cab. - -I asked him how much the cabfare was, he said 85 cents. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he went directly to his home? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he said he went straight home. - -Mr. BALL. Didn't you learn from the cabdriver that he hadn't taken him -to 1026 North Beckley? - -Mr. FRITZ. I knew he had taken him near there but I am telling you what -he told me, he told me he had taken him home. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him whether he had gone directly home? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't think so. - -Mr. BALL. Then you found out the day before about the Wesley Frazier -package, hadn't you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I found out about the package from Irving. - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And also that he usually went home on Friday night and this -time he went home on Thursday night. - -Mr. FRITZ. I asked him why he had changed nights. - -Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. FRITZ. And let me see what he told me about why he had changed. The -man I talked to told me he usually went out on weekends, on Friday, so -I believe he told me, I am not positive why he told me why he went home -on this different night but I think he told me because someone else was -going to be over there on weekends or something to that effect. - -I can look right here and see what he told me. - -Mr. BALL. All right, look and see. You also asked him that day about -the curtain rods, didn't you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Had you asked him about that the night before, do you know or -was this the first time you talked to him about it? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't think I asked him the night before, I am sure I did -not. I am sure I did not ask him the night before. I remember I was -pretty hesitant about asking him about them at all because I told you -I didn't want to tell him--I didn't want him to tell me about curtain -rods until I found out a little more about them. - -Mr. BALL. But you asked him about them this morning? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. He had told Frazier that he had curtain rods in the package? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he denied having curtain rods or any package other -than his lunch. - -Mr. BALL. Didn't you also ask him what he had done when he went home, -what, when he went to 1026 North Beckley? - -Mr. FRITZ. When he went to Beckley? - -Mr. BALL. What he did. - -Mr. FRITZ. What he did when he went on North Beckley? - -Mr. BALL. After the cab ride, what he had done. - -Mr. FRITZ. This time he told me a different story about changing the -clothing. He told me this time that he had changed his trousers and -shirt and I asked him what he did with his dirty clothes and he said, I -believe he said, he put them, the dirty clothes, I believe he said he -put a shirt in a drawer. - -Mr. BALL. And you asked him again, didn't you, what he was doing at the -time the President was shot? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, he told me about the same story about this lunch. - -Mr. BALL. He mentioned who he was having lunch with, did he not? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me he was having lunch when the President -was shot. - -Mr. BALL. With whom? - -Mr. FRITZ. With someone called Junior, someone he worked with down -there, but he didn't remember the other boy's name. - -Mr. BALL. Did he tell you what he was eating? - -Mr. FRITZ. He told me, I believe, that he had, I am doing this from -memory, a cheese sandwich, and he also mentioned he had some fruit, I -had forgotten about the fruit until I looked at this report. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say that was in the package he had brought from home? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; there was one reason I asked him about what was -in the package, we had had a story that had been circulated around the -meantime about some chicken bones. I am sure you heard of that, and I -wanted to find for sure what he did have in his lunch and he told me -about having--he told me they did not have any chicken out there and -I also talked with the Paines and they told me they didn't have any -chicken in the icebox, they did have some cheese. - -Mr. BALL. But he said he had had lunch with Junior? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and with someone else. - -Mr. BALL. Did you find out that there was an employee named Junior, a -man that was nicknamed Junior at the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. FRITZ. Probably we have it here, some of the officers probably did, -we had all these people checked out. I didn't do it myself probably. - -Mr. BALL. That same morning, you asked him also about his affiliations, -didn't you ask him if he belonged to the Communist Party? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him if he belonged to the Communist Party. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. FRITZ. He said he did not. He said he never had a card. He told me -again that he did belong to the Fair Play for Cuba organization, that -he was in favor of the Castro revolution and I don't remember what else -he might have told me. - -Mr. BALL. What about the pistol that he had on him when he was -arrested, did you question him about that this morning? - -Mr. FRITZ. That morning? - -Mr. BALL. Your notes show that you did. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I talked to him about the pistol and asked him -where he got it. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. FRITZ. He told me he had got it about 6 or 7 months before in Fort -Worth but he wouldn't tell me where he got it. When I asked him a -little further about that he told me he didn't want to talk any further -about the pistol. - -Mr. BALL. Did the FBI, did any FBI agent question him that morning? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; Mr. Bookhout asked a few questions along, I don't -remember just exactly what they asked, but he asked him a few questions. - -Mr. BALL. Was there any further questioning about an attorney, whether -or not he wanted a lawyer and who he wanted? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; there probably was because I talked to him about -a lawyer a number of times and he said he didn't want the local -attorneys, some attorney had been up to see him after one of these -questionings, and he said he didn't want him at all. He wanted Mr. Abt. -And he couldn't get him and I told you about the ones there in the -American Civil Liberties Union. - -Mr. BALL. Didn't he tell you at one time he didn't want to answer any -questions until he talked to his lawyer? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me that two or three times. - -Mr. BALL. This morning he told you that, didn't he? - -Mr. FRITZ. He probably did. - -Mr. BALL. Look on your notes there on the page 137D and see whether or -not that refreshes your memory? (Commission Document 81B.) - -Mr. FRITZ. 137G? - -Mr. BALL. 137D. - -Mr. FRITZ. I told him--you know he had told me he could not use the -telephone because he didn't have the money to pay for a call. I told -him he could call collect from the jail to call anyone he wanted to, -and I believe at that time he probably thanked me for that. - -But I told him that we allowed all prisoners to do that. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say he didn't have money enough? - -Mr. FRITZ. He told me that but as I said I told him he didn't need the -money, he could call him collect, and use the jail phone, telephone. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. FRITZ. That seemed to please him all right, because he evidently -did because the next time I saw him he thanked me for letting him use -the phone, but I told him it wasn't a favor; everyone could do that. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you know who he called? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't know, I wasn't there. - -Mr. DULLES. Is there any record? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe there would be. I think you give him the use -of the telephone and they could call when they wanted to. He could have -called half a dozen people if he wanted to. - -Mr. DULLES. He couldn't make a long distance call, could he? I suppose -he could if he called collect. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Was Mr. Kelley of the Secret Service present at this time, -this morning? - -Mr. FRITZ. He was there most of the time after the 22d. He wasn't there -on the 22d. - -Mr. BALL. This is the morning of the 23d we are talking about. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he was there, yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask him what he thought of President Kennedy or -his family? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him what he thought of the President. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. FRITZ. What he thought about the family--he said he didn't have any -particular comment to make about the President. - -He said he had a nice family, that he admired his family, something to -that effect. At one time, I don't have this in my report, but at one -time I told him, I said, "You know you have killed the President, and -this is a very serious charge." - -He denied it and said he hadn't killed the President. - -I said he had been killed. He said people will forget that within a few -days and there would be another President. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he say anything about Governor Connally? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't think I questioned him about the Governor -at that time. I might have asked him at one time. I remember telling -him at one time he shot the Governor. - -Mr. DULLES. Will you give us that? - -Mr. FRITZ. He denied shooting any of them. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he express any antipathy for or friendship for---- - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; he didn't. He didn't express--during one of Mr. -Hosty's talks with him he had talked to him about Governor Connally, -and about some letters but that information I don't have. That is -something Mr. Hosty will have to tell you about. - -Mr. BALL. Your notes show at 11:33 he went back to the jail and about -an hour later at 12:35 he was brought back. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. In your office for another interview. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. In which Mr. Kelley of the Secret Service was present? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Are we now on Saturday noon? - -Mr. BALL. Yes, sir; this is noon about 12:35. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. In the meantime your officers had brought back from Irving -some pictures that they found in the garage, hadn't they? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you had had them blown up, hadn't you? - -Mr. FRITZ. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. What pictures--and you showed Oswald a picture at this time? - -Mr. FRITZ. A picture of him holding a rifle and wearing the pistol. -It showed a picture of him holding a rifle and wearing the pistol. I -showed him first an enlarged picture. - -Mr. BALL. I will show you Commission Exhibit No. 135. - -Mr. FRITZ. That is the picture. - -Mr. BALL. That is the picture you showed him? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; that is a similar picture, that is a copy of the -picture I showed him. - -Mr. BALL. You had had your laboratory enlarge the picture that your men -had brought back from Irving? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he said that wasn't his picture, he said, "I have -been through that whole deal with all people in the cameras," he said, -"One has taken my picture and that is my face and put a different -body on it." He said, I know all about photography, I worked with -photography for a long time. That is a picture that someone else has -made. I never saw that picture in my life." - -I said, "Wait just a minute, and I will show you one you have seen -probably," and I showed him the little one this one was made from and -when I showed him the little one he said, "I never have seen that -picture, either." He said, "That is a picture that has been reduced -from the big one." - -Mr. BALL. I show you Commission No. 133, is that the small picture? - -Mr. FRITZ. The small picture; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. A picture of the small picture? - -Mr. FRITZ. A picture of the small picture, I guess this is. - -Mr. BALL. There are two pictures on 133. Which one was it? - -Mr. FRITZ. On the left. - -Mr. BALL. The one on the left? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the one holding the two papers. - -Mr. BELIN. As you face the picture? - -Mr. BALL. As you face the picture the one on the left? [Exhibit No. -133-A.] - -Mr. FRITZ. There is a lot of questioning in our mind about the time of -this middle day questioning here. We checked it over and over and we -can't be sure about the time and I don't want to go on record as not -knowing whether this time is correct because it might not be. - -Mr. BALL. You mean 12:35? - -Mr. FRITZ. 12:35. - -Mr. BALL. But you do know this conversation---- - -Mr. FRITZ. I do know we talked to him a number of times all along, and -these questions and answers are right, but the times may be off. - -Mr. BALL. You did show him this picture, a picture of Oswald with a -rifle and pistol? - -Mr. FRITZ. I showed him that at one of those interviews, yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And he denied that that was a picture of him. - -Mr. FRITZ. That is true; yes, sir; that is right. - -Mr. BALL. There was another showup that afternoon at 2:15? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. At which time two cabdrivers, one named Scoggins and one -named Whaley were shown Oswald. Were you present at that showup? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't think so. I will look and see right quickly but I -don't think I was. That would have been on the 23d. - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. That shows him--M. G. Hall--wait a minute, I am in the wrong -one, pardon me. Showup No. 4, shows Officers V. S. Hinkel, Walter -Potts, M. G. Hall, C. W. Brown, and J. R. Leavelle who was with the -people handling the showup. - -Mr. BALL. Your records also show that you were brought--he was brought -to your office again at 6 o'clock? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Will you look at page 138B of your notes. (Commission -Document 81B) Was that the time you talked to him about the rifle? - -Mr. FRITZ. 6 o'clock? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. That is when I showed an enlarged picture, yes, sir, that is -what I show here, yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. In the meantime you had gone out to Neely Street, hadn't you, -to try to determine whether or not this was the place for the rifle? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; we didn't find that out until some time later. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; we had heard of the Neely Street address but we -didn't know that that was the place where the picture was taken. But -later on, Mr. Sorrels and some of the Secret Service men called me -and they had found out, I believe from Marina, that that is where the -picture was made and they called me and asked me to go with them and we -made some other pictures out there to show the place. - -Mr. BALL. On this evening at 6 o'clock who was present at the -questioning? - -Mr. FRITZ. At the questioning, just a minute. - -Mr. DULLES. What is the reference to the Marines? - -Mr. BALL. Marina. - -Mr. DULLES. Marina, I didn't catch it. - -Mr. BALL. Who was present at that, do you remember, on 6 o'clock on -Saturday evening, the 23d? See page 138B. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I believe Mr. Bookhout, Inspector Kelley, myself, -and officers. - -Mr. McCLOY. This was an interrogation? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Was that the time when he told you, someone superimposed the -picture on his face? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; that is right. - -Mr. BALL. After he had talked to you a while he told you he didn't want -to talk to you any more, didn't he? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Look on the second page, 138C, and tell me what happened. -Give me in your own words what occurred there. - -Mr. FRITZ. You mean about the picture? - -Mr. BALL. Tell me in your own words, yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; at that time he told me that--the first of -the page up here is when he told me he didn't want to answer more -questions. "I just told you about that but you want to know something -else about this other party." - -Mr. BALL. You talked to him sometime later. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I showed him this map, showed him a map of the -city of Dallas that he had, and the map had been brought in from his -address on North Beckley, and he told me that those markings, they had -several markings on this map, one of them was near---- - -Mr. BALL. Wait a minute, isn't that the next morning? We are talking -about Saturday night now, you have told us about showing him the -enlarged photograph. - -Mr. FRITZ. I show 9:30 the morning of the 24th. - -Mr. BALL. I am talking about the night. - -Mr. FRITZ. All right. - -Mr. DULLES. 6:30 at night. - -Mr. BALL. 6:30 in the evening. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You showed him the photographs? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; pictures. - -Mr. BALL. And he told you they weren't his? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did he tell you then? Didn't he tell you then he didn't -want to answer any more questions? - -Mr. FRITZ. Let's see if he did. - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. That is the time that he told me about the photography, that -he knew all about photography, and then he said, he didn't want to -answer any more questions. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you put him back in jail? - -Mr. FRITZ. 7:15 p.m. - -Mr. BALL. And you didn't see him again that night? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the next morning you checked him out of jail? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the 24th we had him down in the morning, yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who was present that time? - -Mr. FRITZ. That time here at 9:30 in the morning, one of the postal -inspectors, Mr. Holmes, Mr. Sorrels, Mr. Bookhout, and I am not sure -about Mr. Sorrels staying in there all the time. He was in there part -of the time, and that is the time that I showed him the map, too, that -morning with these markings on it. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, he said they didn't mean anything. Those markings were -places he had gone looking for work. I asked him at that time, too, -more about his religious beliefs, and Inspector Kelley asked him what -he thought about religion and he said he didn't think too much of it. I -believe he said of the philosophy of religion. - -So he asked him two or three other questions and he was a little -evasive so I asked him if he believed in a deity. He said he didn't -care to discuss that with me. - -Mr. BALL. What else was said? - -Mr. FRITZ. I asked him, too, I believe on that same morning, I asked -him more about his political beliefs and he told me he didn't belong to -any political party and he told me he was a Marxist but that he wasn't -a Marxist-Leninist, that he was just a Marxist, and that he again told -me that he believed in the Castro revolution. That is the morning of -the transfer. - -Mr. BALL. You asked him about the gun again, didn't you? - -Mr. FRITZ. I asked him about a lot of things that morning, I sure did. - -Mr. BALL. Tell us about it. - -Mr. FRITZ. He denied anything about Alek Hidell, and again about his -belief in the Fair Play for Cuba. - -Mr. BALL. What about the rifle? - -Mr. FRITZ. I asked him about the Neely Street address and he denied -that address. He denied having a picture made over there and he even -denied living there. I told him he had people who visited him over -there and he said they were just wrong about visiting. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him again about the rifle, did you ask him if -that was the picture, that that rifle was his? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I am sure I did. - -Mr. BALL. Look at your notes. - -Mr. FRITZ. All right, sir. Yes, sir; I did. I asked him again if that -was his picture holding the rifle and he said it was not. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. FRITZ. He denied it. He said he didn't have any knowledge of the -picture at all. He said someone else had made it, he didn't know a -thing about it or the rifle. - -Mr. BALL. Didn't you also that same morning again ask him if he brought -a sack with him to work on the morning the President was killed? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, I asked him. I believe that morning I might have asked -him that. I believe I asked him about the sack. - -Mr. BALL. Without looking at your notes there let me ask you this. - -Mr. FRITZ. All right. - -Mr. BALL. When you did ask him about the sack, you did ask him about -it, a sack at one time bringing a sack to work that morning? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. And you asked him the size and shape of the sack, didn't you? - -Mr. FRITZ. He never admitted bringing the sack. I showed him the size -probably in asking him if he brought a sack that size and he denied it. -He said he brought his lunch was all he brought. - -Mr. BALL. Didn't he say when you asked him the size and shape of the -sack that he had with him, he said, "I don't recall, it may have been -a small sack or a large sack. You don't always find one that fits your -sandwiches," something like that. - -Mr. FRITZ. That might be true but he said it was a small sack. He said -it was a lunch sack. - -Mr. BALL. Didn't you ask him where he usually kept his sacks, how he -carried it when he came to work in the car? - -Mr. FRITZ. I asked him where he had the sack--his lunch, and he said he -had it in the front seat with him. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he put any sack in the back seat? - -Mr. FRITZ. He said he did not. - -Mr. BALL. Did you tell him that Frazier had told you that he had had a -long parcel and placed it in the back seat? - -Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure about saying Frazier, I am looking at this -note to see if I did. - -Mr. BALL. The driver of the car---- - -Mr. FRITZ. I remember telling him that someone told me that and I might -have told him that two people saw him because not only Frazier but -Frazier's sister saw that package, you know, and I did question him -about that. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say anything like this? "He might be mistaken or -perhaps thinking about some other time when he picked me up." - -Mr. FRITZ. That is probably right. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember that? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember it this time but if it is in that note that -is probably right. - -Mr. BALL. On the curtain rods story, do you remember whether you ever -asked him if he told Frazier that he had curtain rods in the package? - -Mr. FRITZ. If I asked him what, please, sir? - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask Oswald whether or not he had told Frazier -that he had curtain rods in the package? - -Mr. FRITZ. I am sure I did but I can't remember that right now. But I -am sure I asked him that because I must have asked him that because I -asked him a lot of questions, I asked him if he was fixing his house, I -remember asking about that, and he said he was not. - -Mr. BALL. He said he was what? - -Mr. FRITZ. He was not. - -Mr. BALL. He said he was not fixing it? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know what he said in reply to your question? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't remember what he said about that. - -Mr. BALL. Was he questioned about post office boxes that morning? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did, I asked him about those post office boxes, -because the postal inspector had told us about those boxes, and Mr. -Holmes did most of the talking to him about the boxes, and he knew -about the boxes and where they were, and he said he had, and I asked -him too if he had ordered a rifle to be shipped to one of those boxes, -and he said he had not, to one of those box numbers. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him why he had the boxes? - -Mr. FRITZ. He told me that he had, one of the boxes, if I remember -correctly, he never admitted owning at all. The other box he told me he -got his, he kept to get his mail, that he said he got some papers from -Russia and correspondence with people from Russia and he used that box -for his mail. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you talk to him this morning of November 24? - -Mr. FRITZ. Morning, well, let's see, I am not sure what time we started -talking to him. - -Mr. BALL. 9:30. - -Mr. FRITZ. 9:30, we talked to him then until about--I have the exact -time here. - -Mr. BALL. Can we cut it shorter, your records show 11:15 in your office. - -Mr. FRITZ. Here it is, 11:15. - -Mr. BALL. Is that right? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. First of all, I am going to go through some generally without -identifying the particular place but just the subject matter. - -In an interview with him you did ask him about the pistol, didn't you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Which pistol, the one he shot Tippit with? - -Mr. BALL. The one he had with him when he was arrested. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him about it, yes, I did. - -Mr. BALL. You asked him when he got it and where he got it? - -Mr. FRITZ. He said he bought it in Fort Worth about 6 or 7 months ago. - -Mr. BALL. How long ago? - -Mr. FRITZ. 6 or 7 months. - -Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where in Fort Worth? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; he wouldn't tell me. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. FRITZ. He just wouldn't tell me. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him why he had five live .38 caliber bullets in -his shirt? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes; in his pocket? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. No; I didn't ask him that. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't ask him that? - -Mr. FRITZ. No. - -Mr. BALL. Now you did ask him about the photograph, his photograph, the -photograph that was found in his garage? - -Mr. FRITZ. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. That shows him with a rifle and pistol? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. FRITZ. He said it was not his picture at all. - -Mr. BALL. You did ask him if he had purchased a rifle from Klein's -store in Chicago, Ill., didn't you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. FRITZ. He said he did not. - -Mr. BALL. You did ask him how he explained the photograph, didn't you? - -Mr. FRITZ. How he explained the photograph? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. I asked him about the photograph and he said someone else -took it. It wasn't his picture at all. He said someone in the hall had -taken his picture and made that photograph. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, he said the face was his face but the picture -was made by somebody superimposing his face? - -Mr. FRITZ. That is right; yes. - -Mr. BALL. He denied ever having lived on Neely Street, did he? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he did. - -Mr. BALL. And you asked him also if he had ever owned a rifle? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. FRITZ. He said he had not. He said a long time ago he owned a small -rifle. - -Mr. BALL. What size did he say? - -Mr. FRITZ. He didn't say. He said small rifle. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he kept a rifle in Mrs. Paine's garage at -Irving, Tex.? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and I asked him if he brought it from New Orleans -and he said no. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him where he kept, if he did keep a rifle in a -blanket? - -Mr. FRITZ. I asked him if he kept it in a blanket and he said no. - -Mr. BALL. Didn't you tell him someone told you he had kept it there? - -Mr. FRITZ. Someone told me he had a rifle and wrapped in a blanket and -kept it in the garage and he said he didn't. It wasn't true. - -Mr. BALL. Did he at any time tell you when you asked him if he owned a -rifle, did he say, "How could I afford to order a rifle on my salary of -a dollar and a quarter an hour," something like that? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember that. - -Mr. BALL. You asked him whether or not he shot President Kennedy, -didn't you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. FRITZ. He said he did not. - -Mr. BALL. And you asked him if he shot Governor Connally? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he said he didn't do that, he said he didn't shoot -Tippit. - -Mr. BALL. With reference to where he was at the time the President was -shot, did he tell you what floor of the building he was on? - -Mr. FRITZ. I feel sure that he told me he was on the second floor. - -Mr. BALL. Look at 136B. - -Mr. FRITZ. All right, sir. - -Mr. BALL. The second paragraph down, 136B. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; second floor; yes, sir. He said he usually worked -on the first floor. I asked him what part of the building at the time -the President was shot. He said he was having lunch at about this time -on the first floor. - -Mr. BALL. In his first interview you say that Hosty asked him if he had -been to Mexico. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes; he did. - -Mr. BALL. He denied it. Did he say he had been at Tijuana once? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember him saying he had been at Tijuana. - -Mr. BALL. What did you remember him saying? - -Mr. FRITZ. I remember him saying he had been to Russia, told me he had -been to Russia, and was over there for some time, and he told Hosty -that he had a record of that, knew he had been there, told him a number -of things so far as that is concerned. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say about Mexico? - -Mr. FRITZ. Mexico, I don't remember him admitting that he had been to -any part of Mexico. - -Mr. BALL. What do you remember him saying? - -Mr. FRITZ. I remember he said he did not go to Mexico City and I don't -remember him saying he ever went to Tijuana. - -Mr. BALL. In your report at 138E you have made a statement there of the -conditions under which this interrogation proceeded, haven't you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. Will you tell us about that. You can describe it either as -you state it here in your own words, but tell us what your difficulties -were? - -Mr. FRITZ. I can tell you in just a minute. My office is small as you -know, it is a small office, it doesn't have too much room to begin with. - -With all the outer office full of officers who all wanted to help and -we were glad to have their assistance and help, and we appreciate it, -but in the hallway we had some 200 news reporters and cameramen with -big cameras and little cameras and cables running on the floors to -where we could hardly get in and out of the office. - -In fact, we had to get two police officers assigned to the front door -to keep them out of the office so we could work. - -My office is badly arranged for a thing of this kind. We never had -anything like this before, of course. I don't have a back door and I -don't have a door to the jail elevator without having to go through -that hall for 20 feet, and each time we went through that hallway to -and from the jail we had to pull him through all those people, and -they, of course, would holler at him and say things to him, and some of -them were bad things, and some were things that seemed to please him -and some seemed to aggravate him, and I don't think that helped at all -in questioning him. I think that all of that had a tendency to keep him -upset. - -Mr. BALL. What about the interview itself? - -Mr. FRITZ. Now the interview itself inside, of course, we did have a -lot of people in the office there to be interviewing a man. It is much -better, and you can keep a man's attention and his thoughts on what you -are talking to him about better I think if there are not more than two -or three people. - -But in a case of this nature as bad as this case was, we certainly -couldn't tell the Secret Service and the FBI we didn't want them to -work on it because they would have the same interest we would have, -they would want to do anything they could do, so we, of course, invited -them in too but it did make a pretty big crowd. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have any tape recorder? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't have a tape recorder. We need one, if we -had one at this time we could have handled these conversations far -better. - -Mr. BALL. The Dallas Police Department doesn't have one? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I have requested one several times but so far they -haven't gotten me one. - -Mr. BALL. And you had quite a few interruptions, too, during the -questioning, didn't you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; we had quite a lot of interruptions. I wish we had -had--under the circumstances, I don't think there is much that could -have been done because I saw it as it was there and I don't think there -was a lot that could have been done other than move that crowd out of -there, but I think it would have been more apt to get a confession out -of it or get more true facts from him if I could have got him to sit -down and quietly talked with him. - -Mr. BALL. While he was in your custody up to this time at 11:15, when -he left your office what precautions did you take for his safety in -custody? - -Mr. FRITZ. In custody. We took all kinds of precautions to keep him, -anyone from hurting him. We had an officer go with the jailer and back -and we did everything we thought we could do. - -As I told you a while ago we even put officers on the stage with him -and when we couldn't do that put officers at the end of the stage with -him so they could get quickly to him if anybody tried to hurt him or -molest him. - -Mr. BALL. In your office you always had officers with him? - -Mr. FRITZ. Always, right near him. - -Mr. BALL. When you went down this crowded hallway, how did you protect -him? - -Mr. FRITZ. There were officers went with him each time. - -Mr. BALL. How many? - -Mr. FRITZ. From three to six. - -Mr. BALL. And in the jail, what did you do? - -Mr. FRITZ. In the jail, I don't know. I didn't handle the jail. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't handle the jail? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't handle the jail. I am sure though they used -more than average precautions up there. - -Mr. BALL. When you left at 11:15, what was your purpose in leaving at -11:15? - -Mr. FRITZ. To transfer him to the--you are talking about the 24th? - -Mr. BALL. On the 24th, yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. To transfer him to the county jail. - -Mr. BALL. Had you been requested by Sheriff Decker to transfer him -there before? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir. I had talked to the chief about transferring him -down there. The chief had called me on the 23d, on the 23d, I can't -give you the exact minute, probably a little after noon, he had called -me and asked me when we would be ready to transfer him and I told him -we were still questioning him. We didn't want to transfer him yet. He -said, "Can he be ready by about 4 o'clock? Can he be transferred by 4 -o'clock?" I told him I didn't think we could. - -Mr. BALL. That would be Saturday afternoon? - -Mr. FRITZ. That would be the 23d, would be Saturday, yes, sir. Then he -asked me could he be ready by 10 o'clock in the morning, so I could -tell these people something definitely, and I felt sure we would be -ready by then. However, we didn't, we ran overtime as you can see by -this report, an hour and a half over, when they come over to transfer -him. - -Mr. BALL. Why did you say you would not be ready by 4 o'clock on -Saturday? - -Mr. FRITZ. We wanted to ask him some more questions, to get more -information. - -Mr. BALL. Did you consider transferring him at night? - -Mr. FRITZ. At night? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. During the night on Saturday night, I had a call at my home -from uniformed captain, Captain Frazier, I believe is his name, he -called me out at home and told me they had had some threats and he had -to transfer Oswald. - -And I said, well, I don't know. I said there has been no security -setup, and the chief having something to do with this transfer and you -had better call him, because--so he told me he would. - -Mr. BALL. Did you think---- - -Mr. FRITZ. He called me back then in a few minutes and he told me he -couldn't get the chief and told me to leave him where he was. I don't -think that transferring him at night would have been any safer than -transferring, may I say this? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. Any safer than transferring him during the day. I have -always felt that that was Ruby who made that call, I may be wrong, but -he was out late that night and I have always felt he might have made -that call, if two or three of those officers had started out with him -they may have had the same trouble they had the next morning. - -I don't know whether we had been transferring him ourselves, I don't -know that we would have used this same method but we certainly would -have used security of some kind. - -Mr. BALL. Now weren't you transferring him? - -Mr. FRITZ. Sir, yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What do you mean if we were transferring him ourselves? - -Mr. FRITZ. I mean transferring like I was told to transfer him. - -Mr. BALL. I beg your pardon? - -Mr. FRITZ. I was transferring him like the chief told me to transfer -him. - -Mr. BALL. How would you have transferred him? - -Mr. FRITZ. I did do one thing here, I should tell you about. When the -chief came back and asked me if I was ready to transfer him, I told him -I had already complained to the chief about the big cameras set up in -the jail office and I was afraid we couldn't get out of the jail with -him with all those cameras and all those people in the jail office. - -So when the chief came back he asked if we were ready to transfer and I -said, "We are ready if the security is ready," and he said, "It is all -set up." He said, "The people are across the street, and the newsmen -are all well back in the garage," and he said "It is all set." - -And at that time he told me, he said, "We have got the money wagon up -there to transfer him in," and I said, "Well, I don't like the idea, -chief, of transferring him in a money wagon." We, of course, didn't -know the driver, nor who he was, nor anything about the money wagon, -and he said, "Well, that is all right. Transfer him in your car like -you want to, and we will use the money wagon for a decoy, and I will -have a squad to lead it up to the central expressway and across to the -left on Elm Street and the money wagon can turn down Elm Street and you -can turn down Main Street, when you get to Main Street, going to the -county jail," and he told me he and Chief Stevenson would meet me at -the county jail, that is when we started out. - -Mr. BALL. How would you have done it if you were going to do it? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, I hesitate to say because it didn't work good this -way. If I had done it like I would do it or usually do it or something -and it hadn't worked I would be just in the same shape you know, and -it would be just as bad, so I don't like to be critical of something -because it turned out real bad. - -You can kind of understand my--I know that our chief didn't know -anything was going to happen or he surely wouldn't have told me to -transfer it that way. - -Mr. BALL. How would you have done it? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, we transferred Ruby the next day at about the same -time, and I had two of the officers from my office to pick me up away -from the office. We drove by the county jail, saw that the driveway was -open. We had about the same threats on him that we did with Oswald. -We saw that the driveway was open. I went back to the bus station and -I called one of my officers upstairs, gave him the names of two other -officers, told him to get those two officers and not tell anyone even -in the office where they were going, mark Ruby transferred temporarily, -which means coming to the office or going for some fingerprints or -anything, mark him transferred temporarily, bring him down to the jail -elevator at the bottom of the jail, put two of them to stay in the jail -elevator with him. For the other one to come to the outside door and -when he saw our car flush with the door, bring that man right through -those cameras and put him in the back seat, and they did, they shot him -right through those people and they didn't even get pictures and we had -him lie down on the back seat and two officers lean back over him and -we drove him straight up that same street, turned to the left down Main -Street, ran him into the jail entrance, didn't even tell the jailer we -were coming and put him in the jail. It worked all right. - -But now if it hadn't worked, you know, I don't want to be saying that -I know more about transferring than someone else, because this could -happen to me. I could see if it happened to Ruby, I would have had all -the blame. - -Mr. BALL. Now, if on that morning at 11:15 you planned to transfer him, -didn't you, according to the chief's orders? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. And you were through questioning him, weren't you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Sir? - -Mr. BALL. You were all through questioning him? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; we had everything that we could do at that time. I -would have talked to him later in the county jail but we didn't need to -hold the man any longer. - -Mr. BALL. Had he been handcuffed? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and I told--he was already handcuffed, and I told -one of the officers to handcuff his left hand to Oswald's right hand, -and to keep him right with him. - -Mr. BALL. That was Leavelle? - -Mr. FRITZ. Leavelle, yes, sir. He first started the other hand on the -other side, and I told Officer Graves to get on the other side and -Montgomery to follow him, and I would go down and an officer by the -name of Swain who works across the hall from us came over and offered -to help us, he went down the jail elevator and he went out ahead of me -and I went out in back of him and I was approaching our car to open the -back door to put him in, they were having a terrible time to get the -car in through the people--they were crowding all over the car--and I -heard the shot and I turned just in time to see the officers push Ruby -to the pavement. - -Mr. BALL. When you came out of the jail door were the lights on? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the lights were on. I don't believe they were on -as we came to the door, but they came out immediately as we were coming -out of the door, and I asked one of the officers, two of them answered -me if everything was secure and they said everything was all right. So -we came out. - -Mr. BALL. What about the lights? - -Mr. FRITZ. The lights were almost blinding. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the people in the crowd? - -Mr. FRITZ. I could see the people but I could hardly tell who they -were, because of the lights. I have been wearing glasses this year and -with glasses those lights don't help you facing a bright light like -that, the lights were glaring. - -Mr. BALL. How far ahead of Ruby were you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well. I thought they were right behind me almost but I -noticed from the picture they were a little further back than I -actually thought they were, probably where Mr. Baker is to this -gentleman. I believe maybe a little bit farther than that, maybe -about---- - -Mr. BALL. How far behind Oswald were you, how far behind Oswald. Oswald -was behind you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Behind me. - -Mr. BALL. How many feet would you say? - -Mr. FRITZ. In feet I would say probably 8 feet. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever know of Jack Ruby? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I never did know him. I never knew him at all. Some -of the officers knew him. But I never knew him. - -Mr. BALL. Were there any flashbulbs or were they just steady beams of -light? - -Mr. FRITZ. I didn't see any flashing lights. These were steady blinding -lights that I saw. That I couldn't see, you might say. - -Mr. DULLES. These were television cameras? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear of Warren Reynolds? - -Mr. FRITZ. Warren Reynolds? - -Mr. BALL. Who was shot sometime afterwards? - -Mr. FRITZ. Used car lot man? - -Mr. BALL. Used car lot? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I talked to him. He was shot through the head. - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. I didn't talk to him very long because I didn't have to -talk to him long or I didn't have to talk to him very long but he told -me two or three different stories and I could tell he was a sick man -and he had no doubt brain damage from that bullet and he is apt to say -anything. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. FRITZ. He told me that--he told me two or three stories, one story -he told me when they first brought him into me, for me to talk to him, -he told me that he saw this Ruby coming down there and he told him--he -said he followed him up and saw which way he went. - -Mr. BALL. Ruby? - -Mr. FRITZ. Saw Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. Oswald? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, Oswald, and I questioned him further and I asked him, -how far, how close was the closest you were ever to him, how far were -you from him? He said, well, from that car lot across the street there. -Well, of course, if he had been at a car lot across the street it would -be difficult to follow him on the sidewalk. It would be quite difficult -so I talked to him for just a short time and I didn't bother with him -any more. - -I already had some history on him because the other bureau, the forgery -bureau had been handling him and they had already told me a lot about -him. They discounted anything that he told. - -Mr. BALL. Did you find out who shot him and why he was shot? - -Mr. FRITZ. This man on the car lot? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. They think it might have been over a car deal but they are -not positive and I don't know that he will ever tell them. - -Mr. BALL. Have you ever discovered any connection between the shooting -of Warren Reynolds and the killing? - -Mr. FRITZ. Never. - -Mr. BALL. The assassination of the President? - -Mr. FRITZ. None at all. - -Mr. BALL. The killing of Tippit? - -Mr. FRITZ. No; we found nothing. We checked it. - -Mr. BALL. Any connection between Oswald and Warren Reynolds or Ruby and -Warren Reynolds? - -Mr. FRITZ. We found no connection. We had all kinds of rumors, of -course, that they were connected, and we didn't find anything. - -Mr. BALL. Did you investigate it? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I had some officers investigate it, and the -forgery bureau investigated him because they were already working on -the shooting case. They handled all the shootings where people are not -killed. - -Mr. BALL. I see. - -Had you originally planned to be in the motorcade, had you been ordered -to be? - -Mr. FRITZ. At first? - -Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. FRITZ. I had been; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Then it was changed, what day? - -Mr. FRITZ. Ten o'clock the night before the parade, I got a call at -home telling me that my assignment had been changed and told me to go -to the speaker's tent. - -Mr. BALL. Who called you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Chief Stevenson. - -Mr. BALL. Do you think that made any difference? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't know. I wouldn't want to say because it is like -telling about those transfers, where we would have been in that parade -we would have been pretty close under that window we might have had a -man shot or have good luck or bad luck. - -Mr. DULLES. I didn't quite get you where were you to be in the -motorcade if you had been? - -Mr. FRITZ. Right behind the Vice President's car. - -Mr. DULLES. Behind the Vice President's car? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Had there been a plan for a car in front of the President's -car? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't know, I didn't make the arrangements for the parade. -That was only--those were the only instructions I had--was that one -assignment. - -Mr. BALL. Did you--do you feel any resentment toward the Secret Service -or the FBI men because they were in your office? - -Mr. FRITZ. Oh, no, no, because I work with them all the time. - -Mr. BALL. You do? - -Mr. FRITZ. Mr. Bookhout is in my office with the FBI. My books are all -on the outside and they check my books as often as I do. - -Mr. BALL. Well, do you think you could have done a better job perhaps -if there hadn't been some investigators? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't know, that would be kind of a bad question. - -Mr. BALL. I mean questioning Oswald. - -Mr. FRITZ. Maybe they would have done better if I hadn't been there. - -Mr. DULLES. How was the cooperation, was it pretty good between the -Secret Service and the FBI? - -Mr. FRITZ. We got along fine with the Secret Service and FBI a hundred -percent. - -Mr. McCLOY. Captain Fritz, did you have charge of the attempted -shooting of General Walker? - -Mr. FRITZ. No; that wasn't homicide, it would be handled by Captain -Jones, it would have been the other bureau. - -Mr. McCLOY. Captain Jones. Have we examined Captain Jones? - -Mr. HUBERT. A deposition has been taken. - -Mr. DULLES. You had nothing to do with the investigation of the Walker -case? - -Mr. FRITZ. Not at all. That happened to be Captain Jones and Lieutenant -Cunningham. - -Mr. DULLES. Did that case come up at all in any of your interrogations -of Oswald? Did you ever ask him whether he was involved or anything of -that sort? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't think that I ever asked him about that. If I did, I -don't remember it. I don't remember asking about that, asking him about -that at all. We had a little information on it but I didn't want to mix -it up in that other case and I didn't want to mix it up. - -Mr. McCLOY. I would like to go back some distance. When you first went -into the building there. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. And as of your knowledge, when did the first broadcast go -out of a description of Oswald, according to what information you had -on the subject? - -Mr. FRITZ. I wouldn't have that because I hadn't heard a broadcast of -a description when I went into the building. So if one went out it -probably was after I went in. - -Mr. McCLOY. When Mr. Truly told you that one of his men was missing? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; then he gave me a description of him. - -Mr. McCLOY. And he gave you a description at that time? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes; home address. - -Mr. McCLOY. That was his home address and also a description? - -Mr. FRITZ. His home address and a description, what he looked like, his -age, and so forth. - -Mr. McCLOY. Now that description, to whom was that description given? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, I never did give it any anyone because when I got to -the office he was there. - -Mr. McCLOY. He was there when you got to the office? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. I understand---- - -Mr. FRITZ. I think I could help you a minute about that description -that went out over the radio but I didn't hear it. When I got to the -building, some officer there told me, said we think the man who did -the shooting out of the window is a tall, white man, that is all I -had. That didn't mean much you know because you can't tell five or six -floors up whether a man is tall or short. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you question the colored men that were on the fifth -floor? - -Mr. FRITZ. I talked to part of them. Most of them were questioned by -the other officers, investigating officers I had assigned there; yes, -sir. I talked to very few of them. I did do this. I did assign an -officer to take affidavits from all of those people. - -Mr. McCLOY. Were you present at the showup at which Brennan was the -witness? - -Mr. FRITZ. Brennan? - -Mr. McCLOY. Brennan was the alleged---- - -Mr. FRITZ. Is that the man that the Secret Service brought over there, -Mr. Sorrels brought over? - -Mr. McCLOY. I don't know whether Mr. Sorrels---- - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't think I was present but I will tell you what, I -helped Mr. Sorrels find the time that that man--we didn't show that he -was shown at all on our records, but Mr. Sorrels called me and said he -did show him and he wanted me to give him the time of the showup. I -asked him to find out from his officers who were with Mr. Brennan the -names of the people that we had there, and he gave me those two Davis -sisters, and he said, when he told me that, of course, I could tell -what showup it was and then I gave him the time. - -Mr. McCLOY. But you were not present to the best of your recollection -when Brennan was in the showup? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe I was there, I doubt it. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever inspect these premises on Neely Street? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did. With the Secret Service. We went over there -and we searched that apartment thoroughly. It was vacant. The man came -over that owned it, opened the house for us, we searched it thoroughly -and went through the yard and made some pictures in the backyard -exactly like that with another man, of course, holding the papers. - -Mr. McCLOY. Are the pictures in the record? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; we have them in the record, the ones we made over -there. I suppose you have them here. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do we have the pictures? - -Mr. BALL. I don't believe we have any pictures that you made. - -Mr. FRITZ. Of the one we made over in the backyard. - -Mr. McCLOY. I think it is important we get those because of the charge -this picture was doctored. Have a picture of the premises which these -pictures were taken. - -Mr. BALL. Maybe Lieutenant Day has them. - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; those pictures were made with--we have them, I am -sure of that, our men made the pictures. I believe we have them right -here. Maybe we didn't bring them, but we have them. - -Mr. BALL. Could you send them to us? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes; Lieutenant Day may have some with him. His men have -them. - -Mr. BALL. Maybe Lieutenant Day has them. I have a few questions here. -You mentioned that Hosty, the first day he was there you said that he -said he knows these people. Did he tell you that he knew Oswald? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, I will tell you, he wasn't talking to me really. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say to Oswald? - -Mr. FRITZ. That was the agent--what did Hosty say to Oswald? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. Or what did---- - -Mr. BALL. Did Hosty say? - -Mr. FRITZ. I thought you meant what about Shanklin said to Hosty. - -Mr. BALL. Did Hosty say to you that he knew Oswald? - -Mr. FRITZ. I heard Mr. Shanklin tell Mr. Hosty on the telephone. I had -Mr. Bookhout pick up the telephone and I had an extension. - -Mr. BALL. What did he hear? - -Mr. FRITZ. He said is Hosty in that investigation, Bookhout said no. -He said, "I want him in that investigation right now because he knows -those people he has been talking to," and he said some other things -that I don't want to repeat, about what to do if he didn't do it right -quick. So I didn't tell them that I even knew what Mr. Shanklin said. I -walked out there and called them in. - -Mr. BALL. Was Oswald handcuffed at all times during the interrogation? - -Mr. FRITZ. I believe he was; yes, sir, I believe we kept him handcuffed -at all times. The first time we brought him in he was handcuffed with -his hands behind him and he was uncomfortable and I had the officers -change them and put his hands up front. - -Mr. BALL. Was he fed any time during that day? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he was. I don't remember buying him something -to eat. I usually do, if they are hard up in jail at the time I buy -something to eat but some of the other officers remember me buying him -food but the only thing he would drink was I believe some milk and ate -a little package of those crackers sandwiches and one of the other -officers bought him a cup of coffee and that is all he would either eat -or drink, that is all he wanted. - -Mr. BALL. Now he talked to his wife and---- - -Mr. FRITZ. And his mother. - -Mr. BALL. And his brother, Robert? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I am pretty sure he did. - -Mr. BALL. Where did he talk to them? - -Mr. FRITZ. I believe that would be up in the jail. He didn't want them -in my office. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have that jail---- - -Mr. FRITZ. Wait just one second. No, sir; that was in the jail. - -Mr. BALL. Is the jail wired so that you can listen to conversations? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; it isn't. Sometimes I wish I could hear some of the -things they say but we don't. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, you don't monitor conversations? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; we let them talk to anyone they want to. If they -are allowed to use the telephone, of course, they are allowed free use -of it. Sometimes they do a little better than that. Sometimes they -place a long distance call and charge it to the city. - -Mr. McCLOY. When you went in, Captain Fritz, and you saw the site which -Oswald is alleged to have fired the shot from---- - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you see any signs of a lunch there, a chicken there? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I will tell you where that story about the chicken -comes from. At the other window above there, where people in days past, -you know had eaten their lunches, they left chicken bones and pieces -of bread, all kinds of things up and down there. That isn't where he -was at all. He was in a different window, so I don't think those things -have anything to do with it. Someone wrote a story about it in the -papers, and we have got all kinds of bad publicity from it and they -wrote in telling us how to check those chicken bones and how to get -them from the stomach and everything. - -Mr. DULLES. What was Oswald's attitude toward the police and police -authority? - -Mr. FRITZ. You know I didn't have trouble with him. If we would just -talk to him quietly like we are talking right now, we talked all right -until I asked him a question that meant something, every time I asked -him a question that meant something, that would produce evidence he -immediately told me he wouldn't tell me about it and he seemed to -anticipate what I was going to ask. In fact, he got so good at it -one time, I asked him if he had had any training, if he hadn't been -questioned before. - -Mr. DULLES. Questioned before? - -Mr. FRITZ. Questioned before, and he said that he had, he said yes, the -FBI questioned him when he came back from Russia from a long time and -they tried different methods. He said they tried the buddy boy method -and thorough method, and let me see some other method he told me and he -said, "I understand that." - -Mr. DULLES. Did you ask him whether he had had any communist training -or indoctrination or anything of that kind? - -Mr. FRITZ. I asked him some questions about that and I asked him where -he was in Russia. He told me he was in Russia, first I believe he told -me, first I believe he said in Moscow, and then he said he went to -Minsk, Russia, and I asked him what did you do, get some training, go -to school? I suspected he had some training in sabotage from the way -he talked and acted, and he said "no, I worked in a radio factory." He -acted like a person who was prepared for what he was doing. - -Mr. DULLES. Have you any views of your own as to motive from your talks -with him? Did you get any clues as to possible motive in assassinating -the President? - -Mr. FRITZ. I can only tell you what little I know now. I am sure that -we have people in Washington here that can tell far more than I can. - -Mr. DULLES. Well, you saw the man and the others didn't see the man. - -Mr. FRITZ. I got the impression, I got the impression that he was doing -it because of his feeling about the Castro revolution, and I think that -he felt, he had a lot of feeling about that revolution. - -(At this point the Chief Justice entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. FRITZ. I think that was the reason. I noticed another thing. I -noticed a little before when Walker was shot, he had come out with -some statements about Castro and about Cuba and a lot of things and if -you will remember the President had some stories a few weeks before -his death about Cuba and about Castro and some things, and I wondered -if that didn't have some bearing. I have no way of knowing that other -than just watching him and talking to him. I think it was his feeling -about his belief in being a Marxist, I think he had--he told me he had -debated in New Orleans, and that he tried to get converts to this Fair -Play for Cuba organization, so I think that was his motive. I think he -was doing it because of that. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he express any animosity against anyone, the President -or the Governor or Walker or anybody? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; he did not. Not with me he didn't. - -Mr. DULLES. Not with you? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir. He just, the fact he just didn't talk about them -much. He just didn't say hardly anything. When I asked him he didn't -say much about them. - -Mr. McCLOY. You knew Officer Tippit? - -Mr. FRITZ. I wanted to tell you one thing before I forget. One time I -asked him something about whether or not, either I asked him or someone -else in there asked him, if he thought he would be better off, if he -thought the country would be better off with the President killed and -he said, "Well, I think that the Vice President has about the same -views as the President has." He says he will probably do about the same -thing that President Kennedy will do. - -Mr. DULLES. Oswald said that to you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Either to me or someone, it could be one of the other -officers who asked that question while they were talking about him. - -Mr. McCLOY. Of course, you knew Officer Tippit? - -Mr. FRITZ. I didn't know him. I didn't know him. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. He didn't work directly under you? - -Mr. FRITZ. I looked at his record and saw that the chief of the -personnel file and I looked at the personnel file and I talked to a -number of officers who did know him and they speak very highly. - -Mr. DULLES. Have you ever reviewed his record since these events? - -Mr. FRITZ. I didn't exactly review it but I read a good part of it and -the chief read a good part of it to me. - -Mr. DULLES. The record is good? - -Mr. FRITZ. The record is good. It was average, it looked better than -a lot of them do. It is all right. It had the same little things that -happen to most officers, maybe some little complaint about something -minor, nothing of any consequence. - -Mr. McCLOY. So far as you know he had no connection with Ruby? - -Mr. FRITZ. I am sure he did not. I think I know what you people have -probably heard. We hear all kinds of rumors down our way and I am not -trying to volunteer a lot of things here. I know you have a lot of -business to do, have you heard something about some connection between -Oswald and Ruby and Tippit, and some fourth person. I heard some story, -we didn't find any ground for it at all. We didn't find any connection -of any kind that would connect them together. I can't even find a -connection between Ruby and Oswald and I can't place them in the same -building at the same time nor place them in the same building together, -YMcA, one of them lived there and one of them was taking some kind of -an athletic course there. - -Mr. McCLOY. But not at the same time? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, I can't place them there at the same time; no, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Have you discovered any connection between any of your -officers and Ruby? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, I think a lot of the officers knew Ruby. I think about -two or three officers in my office knew him, and I think practically -all of the special service officers who handle the vice and the clubs -and the liquor violations, I think nearly all of them knew him and, of -course, the officer knew him who had arrested him carrying pistols a -time or two, two or three times, uniformed officer mostly. He seemed to -be well known. It seems a lot of people in town knew him. But I never -was in his place and I didn't know him. Twenty years ago I might have -been in his place. - -Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz, from being with Oswald for a couple of days -what were your impressions about him? Was he afraid, scared? - -Mr. FRITZ. Was he afraid? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't believe he was afraid at all. I think he -was a person who had his mind made up what to do and I think he was -like a person just dedicated to a cause. And I think he was above -average for intelligence. - -I know a lot of people call him a nut all the time but he didn't talk -like a nut. He knew exactly when to quit talking. He knew the kind of -questions. I could talk to him as long as I wanted to if I just talked -about a lot of things that didn't amount to anything. But any time I -asked him a question that meant something he answered quick. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear of a lawyer in Chicago that called up and -offered to help Ruby? - -Mr. FRITZ. Some lawyer from Chicago sent him a wire. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the wire? - -Mr. FRITZ. I saw the wire; yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know who the lawyer was? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't remember his name. I believe he probably -had it delivered to the jail. - -Mr. BALL. To Oswald, a lawyer from Chicago offered his services to -Oswald? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes; Ruby too. But I am talking about the one to Oswald. I -don't know that I would even know his name if I heard it. - -Mr. BALL. We have some pictures here from the crime laboratory as -we have marked Exhibits 712, 713, and 714. The witness has already -identified a picture of Oswald. I show you this, Captain, can you tell -me which one of these pictures on Exhibit 714 that you showed to Oswald -the day when you interrogated him, asked him it that was his picture? - -Mr. FRITZ. It is the one with the two papers in his hand. - -Mr. BALL. The one to the right. Did you ever show him the one to the -left? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't think so. - -Mr. BALL. We offer 713, 712, and 714 as two pictures taken. - -Mr. FRITZ. These are the pictures I told about a while ago. - -Mr. BALL. They were taken by your crime lab? - -Mr. FRITZ. Our crime lab took these pictures when I went over there -with Mr. Sorrels. - -Mr. BALL. Where were they taken? - -Mr. FRITZ. In the backyard of the Neely Street address. If you will -note, you will see in this picture, you notice that top right there of -this shed. Of course, this picture is taken up closer, but if you step -back further you can see about where the height comes to on that shed -right there. Not exactly in the same position. - -Mr. BALL. I offered these. (Commission Exhibits Nos. 712, 713, and 714 -were admitted.) - -Mr. FRITZ. It shows the gate. - -Mr. BALL. Indicating the location of the picture taken--this set will -indicate the pictures were all taken at the Neely Street backyard. - -Mr. DULLES. You recall the date of these pictures, in April? - -Mr. FRITZ. I believe they will be dated on the back of them. - -Mr. DULLES. April, so the trees would be about the same. - -Mr. BALL. When were the pictures taken by your crime lab? - -Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure but I believe the date will be on the back of -the picture. November 29, 1963. Picture made by Officer Brown who works -in the crime lab. - -Mr. BALL. Captain, I would like to ask you some more questions about -your prisoner. - -Mr. FRITZ. All right, sir. - -Mr. BALL. The first day that you had Oswald in custody, did you -get a notice from the FBI, any of the FBI officers that there had -been a communication from Washington suggesting that you take extra -precautions for the safety of Oswald? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; there was not. - -Mr. BALL. Do you recall whether or not on Friday---- - -The CHAIRMAN. What was your answer to that? - -Mr. FRITZ. I did not, I got no such instructions. In fact, we -couldn't--we would have taken the precautions without the notice but we -did not get the notice, I never heard of that. - -Mr. BALL. Do you recall that on Friday, November 22, Wade asked you or -did he or didn't District Attorney Wade ask you to transfer Oswald to -the county jail for security? - -Mr. FRITZ. That would be on the night of the 22d? - -Mr. BALL. On the night of the 22d. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he asked me if I would transfer him that night. - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? - -Mr. FRITZ. I told him we didn't want to transfer him yet. We wanted to -talk to him some more. We talked a little bit. He didn't actually want -him transferred. He just was more or less talking about whether or not -we wanted to transfer him. - -Mr. BALL. Now on Saturday Decker called you and asked you to transfer -him? - -Mr. FRITZ. On Saturday did he call me and ask me to transfer him? - -Mr. BALL. Yes, that would be the 23d. - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. BALL. Did Chief Curry tell you that Decker had called or anything -of that sort? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; when I was talking to Chief Curry on one of those -conversations, I don't think it is the conversation now when he told -me about the hours, I think it is another conversation, I told him, I -said, "I don't know whether we were going to transfer him or Decker was -going to transfer him," and Chief Curry said, "We are going to transfer -him, I have talked to Decker, we are going to transfer him." - -Mr. BALL. When were the plans for the transfer made? - -Mr. FRITZ. When were the plans made? - -Mr. BALL. Yes; do you know? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't know about that. The only thing I know is what I -told you about when the chief told me about would he be ready by 10 -o'clock that morning, and I told him I thought we could. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't make the plans yourself? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. They were made by the chief? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; they were made by the chief. - -Mr. BALL. When did the chief first tell you what the plans were? - -Mr. FRITZ. That was on the 23d. He didn't tell me about all the plans, -of course, at that time because I told you when he came up to tell us -about that, when he asked when we were ready to go he told me about the -armored car, that is the first I had ever heard of that. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever tell any of the press the time that Oswald would -be moved? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't believe I did. I was interrogated by a -bunch of them as I started to leave the office on the night of the 23d. -As we started to the elevator, a group of us from my office, and some -of the FBI officers, we started to the elevator some 10 or 20 reporters -came up and said the chief said we were going to transfer him at 10 -o'clock the next morning and if we were and I didn't talk to them so I -don't think I ever said much if anything to them because I know one of -them followed me almost to my parking lot, I know, asking me questions -about the transfer. - -Mr. BALL. At 11:15 when they left your office, do you know whether or -not there was any broadcast over your radio as to your movements? - -Mr. FRITZ. On our radio? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. I wouldn't know. - -Mr. BALL. Or on any radio, were there any radio broadcasters on your -floor at that time? - -Mr. FRITZ. Any of those newsmen? - -Mr. BALL. Newsmen? - -Mr. FRITZ. Oh, yes; they might not have been on the floor but they were -all down in the basement. You are talking about the morning of the 24th? - -Mr. BALL. On the morning of the 24th when you were moving? - -Mr. FRITZ. Any number of them downstairs. I don't remember whether -there were any upstairs or not. There probably was maybe a few of them -because I don't think there was any time when there wasn't a few of -them up there, but we didn't leave through that hall and go through the -elevator. We went through the mail elevator. - -Mr. BALL. On the 22d and 23d, the third floor was full of newspapermen -and photographers? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; all the time, completely full. - -Mr. BALL. Had they left the third floor on the 24th? - -Mr. FRITZ. A lot of them had; yes, sir. A lot of them had, and were -downstairs in the basement. - -Mr. BALL. How about the television cameras? - -Mr. FRITZ. I noticed--television cameras, they were downstairs too. - -Mr. BALL. They weren't up on the third floor? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe--there could have been one or two of them -left up there, I don't think many of them were still up there. - -Mr. BALL. Most of them were downstairs? - -Mr. FRITZ. Most of them were downstairs. I wouldn't say there weren't -any up there because I don't think there was any time when there wasn't -at least a few of them up there. - -Mr. BALL. Now, when you went down the jail elevator and you said you -got out and went forward to see if everything was secure. What did you -mean by that? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, I meant if everything, it was all right for us to go -to our car with him. We didn't want to leave the jail office with him -unless everything was all right because as long as we were in the jail -office we could put him back in the elevator and if everything wasn't -all right, I didn't want to come out with him. - -Mr. BALL. And you went ahead, didn't you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; first Lieutenant Swain and then I went out and -then the other officers followed me with the prisoner. - -Mr. BALL. Was the car there you were going to get in? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Had you reached the car yet? - -Mr. FRITZ. I was just in the act of reaching for the door to open the -back door, I looked at that picture, and it doesn't show the exact -distance I was from the car but I couldn't have been any further than -reaching distance. - -Mr. BALL. When you left, or after Ruby shot Oswald, he was taken -upstairs, wasn't he? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he was. He was first carried into the jail office, -you mean Ruby? - -Mr. BALL. Ruby, when Ruby shot Oswald? - -Mr. FRITZ. Oswald was carried into the jail office and put on the floor -there. Ruby was brought into the jail office. Now I believe that Ruby -was brought into the jail office after Oswald, I believe Oswald was -already on the floor or behind there because I know the officers had -taken Ruby upstairs went behind me and I saw them pass behind me with -him to the jail. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Ruby? - -Mr. FRITZ. Did I talk to him; no, sir; I talked to him later. - -Mr. McCLOY. I wonder if at this time you would want a little recess? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I am comfortable. - -Mr. McCLOY. I think we kept the chief on a little bit too long this -morning. - -Mr. FRITZ. If it is all right with you. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Ruby at that time? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; not at that time. - -Mr. BALL. Later? - -Mr. FRITZ. I talked to him later, probably an hour later. I guess I -have the exact time here if you need it. - -Mr. BALL. What did Ruby say to you, do you have the exact time? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, he told me, I told him, I, of course, wanted to know -something about premeditation because I was thinking about the trial -too and I told him I wanted to ask him some questions and he said, -well, he first said, "I don't want to talk to you, I want to talk to -my lawyers," and he said, I believe he told me too that he had been -advised by a lawyer, and I asked him some other question and he said, -"Now if you will level with me and you won't make me look like a fool -in front of my lawyers I will talk to you." - -I didn't ask him one way or the other, but I did ask him some questions -and he told me that he shot him, told me that he was all torn up about -the Presidential killing, that he felt terribly sorry for Mrs. Kennedy. -He didn't want to see her to have to come back to Dallas for a trial, -and a lot of other things like that. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ask him how he got down to the jail? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Mr. FRITZ. He told me he came down that ramp from the outside. So I -told him, I said, "No, you couldn't have come down that ramp because -there would be an officer at the top and an officer at the bottom and -you couldn't come down that ramp." He said, "I am not going to talk to -you any more, I am not going to get into trouble," and he never talked -to me any more about it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him again? - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't think I ever talked to him after that. I talked to -him a little while then and I don't believe I ever talked to him after -that. I asked him when he first decided to kill Oswald, and he didn't -tell me that. He told me something else, talked about something else. - -Mr. BALL. What was that time, you said you could give us the time? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I can give you the time. 3:05. - -Mr. BALL. What time? - -Mr. FRITZ. 3:05. - -Mr. BALL. 3:05 in the afternoon? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know that Archer or Dean or Newman had talked to Ruby? - -Mr. FRITZ. I didn't know that they had talked to him. I knew that some -officers had talked to him but I didn't know who they were. - -Mr. BALL. Were there any reports given you by any one of these three -men, Dean---- - -Mr. FRITZ. They weren't given to me. Those reports were given to the -investigative team that the chief setup headed by Captain Jones and -some of the inspectors and they gave me a copy. I have copies of it. - -Mr. BALL. You have copies of those reports? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know, did you know prior to the trial of Ruby that -either Dean or Archer or Newman, either one, had claimed to have talked -to Ruby about his premeditation in the killing of Oswald? - -Mr. FRITZ. Well, sir, I didn't know, I wouldn't have known that. They -never told me about that. I wouldn't have known. I think that maybe the -chief had taken some report from Dean, but I didn't see that until, I -think I put it in this book a few days ago. - -Mr. BALL. Well now, did you have charge of the investigation of the -Oswald killing? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You were in charge of that? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Then all the reports would come to you? - -Mr. FRITZ. Come here; yes, sir. With one exception. The reports from -all those officers in the security in the basement. You see, I had -nothing to do with setting up the security in the basement, that -was under the security division and the chief might have given that -assignment to, those are in a different book, they are in a report -made to this investigative team appointed by the chief. We have their -copies, too. - -Mr. BALL. Well, but you had charge of the investigation of the homicide? - -Mr. FRITZ. The homicide but I didn't have charge of the investigation -of the basement incident. - -Mr. BALL. Well, the reason for my question is that there has been some -question raised as to testimony in the Ruby trial of these men, Dean, -Archer, and Newman. - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I heard that. - -Mr. BALL. And they have testified to certain statements made that they -heard from Ruby afterward, and the question is whether or not these men -have reported to you that they had heard that. - -Mr. FRITZ. They didn't report it to me; no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Or reported it in writing to their department? - -Mr. FRITZ. They didn't report it to me, if they reported to anyone -I didn't get it. But I understand that Dean had made some kind of -special report to the chief but that wasn't to me. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever know a man named Roger Craig, a deputy sheriff? - -Mr. FRITZ. Roger Craig, I might if I knew which one he was. Do we have -it here? - -Mr. BALL. He was a witness from whom you took a statement in your -office or some of your men. - -Mr. FRITZ. Some of my officers. - -Mr. BALL. He is a deputy sheriff. - -Mr. FRITZ. One deputy sheriff who started to talk to me but he was -telling me some things that I knew wouldn't help us and I didn't talk -to him but someone else took an affidavit from him. His story that he -was telling didn't fit with what we knew to be true. - -Mr. BALL. Roger Craig stated that about 15 minutes after the shooting -he saw a man, a white man, leave the Texas State Book Depository -Building, run across a lawn, and get into a white Rambler driven by a -colored man. - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't think that is true. - -Mr. BALL. I am stating this. You remember the witness now? - -Mr. FRITZ. I remember the witness; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did that man ever come into your office and talk to you in -the presence of Oswald? - -Mr. FRITZ. In the presence of Oswald? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I am sure he did not. I believe that man did come -to my office in that little hallway, you know outside my office, and -I believe I stepped outside the door and talked to him for a minute -and I let someone else take an affidavit from him. We should have that -affidavit from him if it would help. - -Mr. BALL. Now this man states that, has stated, that he came to your -office and Oswald was in your office, and you asked him to look at -Oswald and tell you whether or not this was the man he saw, and he -says that in your presence he identified Oswald as the man that he had -seen run across this lawn and get into the white Rambler sedan. Do you -remember that? - -Mr. FRITZ. I think it was taken, I think it was one of my officers, and -I think if he saw him he looked through that glass and saw him from the -outside because I am sure of one thing that I didn't bring him in the -office with Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. You are sure you didn't? - -Mr. FRITZ. I am sure of that. I feel positive of that. I would remember -that I am sure. - -Mr. BALL. He also says that in that office---- - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. After he had said, "That is the man," that Oswald got up from -his chair and slammed his hand on the table and said, "Now everybody -will know who I am." Did that ever occur in your presence? - -Mr. FRITZ. If it did I never saw anything like that; no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That didn't occur? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; it didn't. That man is not telling a true story if -that is what he said. Do you have any--could I ask a question, is it -all right if I ask a question? - -Mr. McCLOY. All right, go ahead. - -Mr. BALL. Go ahead. - -Mr. FRITZ. I was going to ask if we had any affidavits from any of our -officers that would back that up? If they did I never heard of it. - -Mr. BALL. If you are here tomorrow. - -Mr. FRITZ. It is something I don't know anything about. - -Mr. BALL. If you are here tomorrow I would like to show you the -deposition of the man for you to read it. - -Mr. FRITZ. I am sure I would know that. The only time I saw the man hit -the desk was when Mr. Hosty talked to him and he really got upset about -that. - -Mr. DULLES. Is that in the testimony, have you testified about that? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. That shows his agitation over the alleged---- - -Mr. FRITZ. Questioning. - -Mr. McCLOY. Questioning of his wife. - -Mr. FRITZ. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. In the light of your experience in this case, do you think -you should alter your regulations with the press, have a little more -discipline when the press are around? - -Mr. FRITZ. We can with the local press. We can't do much with those -people that we don't know from those foreign countries, and from -distant States, they don't ask us. They just write what they hear of -and we read it. - -Mr. BALL. No; but I mean in the physical control of your plant there? - -Mr. FRITZ. There at city hall? - -Mr. BALL. Do you think you should alter your policy? - -Mr. FRITZ. We think we can control it normally, because those officers, -those people from the press there wouldn't come in and start taking -pictures without permission. They wouldn't do that without asking, and -then usually I ask a prisoner because some prisoners don't want their -pictures taken and sometimes they do, if they want it taken why it is -all right. Sometimes we don't let them take them at all, depending on -circumstances. - -Mr. BALL. Do you permit television interrogation of your prisoners in -jail? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Or in the---- - -Mr. FRITZ. In the jail I don't have charge of the jail but I am sure -they don't because I haven't heard of that. We don't have it in the -office either. - -Mr. McCLOY. But---- - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't think it is a good idea at all because I don't know -what that man might say. - -Mr. BALL. I agree. - -Mr. McCLOY. You would have jurisdiction to keep out foreign -correspondents if you wanted to? - -Mr. FRITZ. Keep them out of the office; yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Keep them out of the building? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I wouldn't have charge of the building but I can -keep them out of my office, up to that door, I can have enough officers -I can take care of that fine. Out in that building, that is more or -less a job for the uniform division. - -Mr. DULLES. A job for the uniform division, the police? - -Mr. FRITZ. A job for the uniform division, they can take charge of it -and they have uniforms. - -Mr. DULLES. Who establishes the policy? - -Mr. FRITZ. The chief of police establishes the policy. He has -assistants, of course. - -Mr. McCLOY. You have testified that you were really hampered in your -investigation, in your interrogation of Oswald by reason of the -confusion. - -Mr. FRITZ. I think so. - -Mr. McCLOY. By reason of too many people being around, isn't that right? - -Mr. FRITZ. I think so, but I am not sure that could have been avoided -under these circumstances. - -Mr. McCLOY. Well, couldn't you---- - -Mr. FRITZ. I think that---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Couldn't you have demanded that your office be cleared so -that you could have a quiet investigation? - -Mr. FRITZ. I could hardly tell the Secret Service and the FBI or any -other Federal agency--I had the outer office had Texas Rangers out -there, several of them, and you could understand why they would be in -there because the Governor had been shot and they work directly for the -Governor out of Austin, so you could hardly tell people like that that -you don't want them to help. - -Now, if this were just an average case, just an average hijacking case -we have, we could easily, we could handle it with all ease but where -the President of the United States is killed it would be hard to tell -the Secret Service and the FBI that they couldn't come in. - -Mr. McCLOY. But you could have told the newspaper people, the media -people that they couldn't come in. - -Mr. FRITZ. I didn't let them come in my office or in my part of the -office. - -Mr. McCLOY. They never were in your office when you were examining -Oswald? - -Mr. FRITZ. Never. I think one of them got inside of the outer office -but someone immediately put him out. - -Mr. DULLES. What is the jurisdiction of the city manager as compared to -the chief of police, does he have authority over the chief of police? - -Mr. FRITZ. The city manager is our big boss, he is over all of us. He -is over the chief of police and he operates the city. He is responsible -only to the mayor and city council. And I think that they give him a -pretty free hand. - -We have got a city manager and he tells, he sets the policies, of -course, maybe I made a mistake when I told you that the chief of police -sets the policies of our police department, but the city manager would -set the policies for the city as a whole. - -Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you have anything else that you think that is on your -mind that might help us in getting at the rockbottom of either the -Oswald murder or the President's murder? - -Mr. FRITZ. I believe that you people know about everything that we -know. We have tried to get everything in this book. We have tried not -to withhold anything, and I will tell you something about this case -that I told some people in the beginning. - -I don't know of anything about this case that we can't tell all about, -the truth about it from start to finish now. I think the truth fits it -better than anything we can do to it. I hope I have gotten this story -to you correctly. I hope I haven't made some mistakes in some of my -testimony about time and the dates and things because if I have---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Are there any further leads that you would like to follow -up or do you feel that the case is from your point of view closed in -terms of-- - -Mr. FRITZ. We won't ever close it. We never close any murder case and -we won't ever close it. I will tell you what, if anything came up about -this case that we thought we could do to help on it, and it came up -10 years from now we would work on it. We would work on it regardless -of what time it came up. I do think this, that there have been a lot -of things about this case that we won't be able to handle. If we get -any information about anything that involves foreign relations we will -pass that on to the people who know what to do with it. We won't try to -handle anything like that because we might do a very wrong thing. We -would give that to either the FBI or the Secret Service, depending on -the type of information it was, and they would pass it on to wherever -they wanted to. - -Mr. McCLOY. Are there any pending leads in this case that you feel that -you would like to follow up beyond? - -Mr. FRITZ. Right now? - -Mr. McCLOY. Right now. - -Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe we have one. Do you think of any lead to -follow up? I can't think of one. If I thought of one we would sure -start on it. But I don't think we have. - -Mr. BALL. There is one problem here in your records that we asked -about. Where was Oswald between 12:35 a.m., and 1:10 a.m., on Saturday, -November 23, that is right after midnight? - -Mr. FRITZ. Right after midnight. - -Mr. BALL. The jailer's records show he was checked out. - -Mr. FRITZ. I think I know where he was right after midnight. I think -he went to the identification bureau to be fingerprinted and have his -picture made. - -Mr. BALL. You know. You can probably advise him and he can tell us. -What is it? - -Mr. FRITZ. I think that, if it is the time that I am thinking about, if -it is the time that after he was, after he had his arraignment, I think -from what we found out since then that he went there for picture and -fingerprints. - -Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. - -Mr. FRITZ. Maybe you should ask Lieutenant Baker here something that I -don't know anything about, that he knows, that might help to clarify -that question you asked me just then. I thought he went for the -picture, but tell him. - - -TESTIMONY OF T. L. BAKER - -Mr. McCLOY. Lieutenant, will you be sworn, please? - -Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. BAKER. I do. - -Mr. BALL. State your name. - -Mr. BAKER. T. L. Baker. - -Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? - -Mr. BAKER. Lieutenant, police department, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. You are up here with Captain Fritz? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you are the man who prepared Commission Document 81-B; is -that correct? - -Mr. BAKER. I assisted in it, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You were sort of the editor, is that right? - -Mr. BAKER. Something like that. - -Mr. BALL. The question we addressed to Captain Fritz was where was -Oswald between the 12:35 and, I believe, 1:10 in the evening, 1:10 -a.m., on Saturday, November 23, that is, right after midnight? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; at 12:35 a.m., Lieutenant Knight of the I.D. -bureau took him out of the jail on the fifth floor and with the -assistance of Sergeant Warren and one of the jailers brought him to the -fourth floor where the I.D. bureau was located. - -Mr. McCLOY. The I.D. bureau is the identification bureau? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. There in the presence of Sergeant Warren and -this jailer, one of his assistants, he was processed through the I.D. -bureau, which consists of taking his pictures and fingerprints and -making up the different circulars that go to the FBI, and so forth. -When they had finished processing him, he returned him to the jail. -Lieutenant Knight released him. He was placed back in the jail at 1:10. -Approximately 1:30 Sergeant Warren received a call from Chief Curry, -advising him to bring him back to the identification bureau the same -place, for arraignment. Sergeant Warren and the same jailer returned -him to the I.D. bureau, where he was arraigned by Judge Johnston at -approximately 1:35 a.m. This arraignment took approximately 10 minutes, -and he was returned to the fifth-floor jail by Sergeant Warren at -approximately 1:45 a.m. - -Mr. BALL. That is all. - -Mr. McCLOY. Thank you very much. - - -TESTIMONY OF J. W. FRITZ RESUMED - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one question? - -Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Had you or your office, to your knowledge, ever heard of -Oswald prior to November 22, 1963? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I never heard of him, and I don't believe anyone in -my office had ever heard of him, because none of them knew him when we -got him. That was our first---- - -Mr. DULLES. There are no reports; you found no reports in your files? - -Mr. FRITZ. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. About him that antedated November 22, 1963? - -Mr. FRITZ. We had no reports on him at all. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever hear of a man named Weissman? Does that mean -anything to you, Bernard Weissman? - -Mr. FRITZ. The name sounds familiar. I don't know him. I saw that ad -that he had in the paper, and had his name signed to it at the bottom. - -Mr. McCLOY. But that is all you know about him? - -Mr. FRITZ. That is all I know about him. - -Mr. McCLOY. Any other questions? - -Mr. DULLES. I have no other questions. - -Mr. McCLOY. We are through. We thank you very much for your -cooperation, Captain. - - -TESTIMONY OF J. C. DAY - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give at this -hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, -so help you God? - -Mr. DAY. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. State your name for the Commission. - -Mr. DAY. J. C. Day. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? - -Mr. DAY. Lieutenant, Dallas Police Department assigned to the crime -scene search section of the identification bureau. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you? - -Mr. DAY. Fifty. - -Mr. BELIN. How long have you been associated with the Dallas Police -Department? - -Mr. DAY. Twenty-three years. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in Texas? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school? - -Mr. DAY. Through high school. - -Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do? - -Mr. DAY. I went to work for a machinery company there in Dallas for -about 9 years before I went with the city. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you went there directly to the city? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you describe your activities from about noon on of -that day? - -Mr. DAY. I was in the identification bureau at the city hall. About a -quarter of one I was in the basement of the city hall, which is three -floors under me--actually I am on the fourth floor--and a rumor swept -through there that the President had been shot. - -I returned to my office to get on the radio and wait for the -developments. Shortly before 1 o'clock I received a call from the -police dispatcher to go to 411 Elm Street, Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular building at that particular location? - -Mr. DAY. The Texas School Book Depository, I believe is the correct -name on it. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go there? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I went out of my office almost straight up 1 -o'clock. I arrived at the location on Elm about 1:12. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? - -Mr. DAY. I was directed to the sixth floor by the police inspector who -was at the front door when I arrived. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know who that was? - -Mr. DAY. Inspector Sawyer. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the sixth floor? - -Mr. DAY. I had to go up the stairs. The elevator--we couldn't figure -out how to run it. When I got to the head of the stairs, I believe -it was the patrolman standing there, I am not sure, stated they had -found some hulls over in the northeast corner of the building, and I -proceeded to that area--excuse me, southeast corner of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, in your 23 years of work for the Dallas Police -Department, have you had occasion to spend a good number of these years -in crime-scene matters? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How long, about? - -Mr. DAY. The past 7 years I have been--I have had immediate supervision -of the crime-scene search section. It is our responsibility to go to -the scene of the crime, take photographs, check for fingerprints, -collect any other evidence that might be available, and primarily we -are to assist the investigators with certain technical parts of the -investigation. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you carry any equipment of any kind with you when you go -there? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. We have a station wagon equipped with fingerprint -equipment, cameras, containers, various other articles that might be -needed at the scene of the crime. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you had any special education or training or background -insofar as your crime-scene work is concerned? - -Mr. DAY. In the matter of fingerprints, I have been assigned to the -identification bureau 15 years. During that time I have attended -schools, the Texas Department of Public Safety, on fingerprinting; also -an advanced latent-print school conducted in Dallas by the Federal -Bureau of Investigation. I have also had other schooling with the Texas -Department of Public Safety and in the local department on crime-scene -search and general investigative work. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe you said that you were informed when you got -there that they had located some hulls? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? - -Mr. DAY. I went to the northeast corner--southeast corner of the -building, and first made photographs of the three hulls. - -Mr. McCLOY. What floor was this? - -Mr. DAY. On the sixth floor. I took photographs of the three hulls as -they were found before they were moved. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you some pictures here and ask you to say -if these pictures are the photographs you took. First, I will hand you -a picture marked "Commission Exhibit 715," and ask you to state, if you -know, what this is. - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. That is one of the photographs we made of the hulls -on the floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, who took the actual picture? - -Mr. DAY. Detective Studebaker; R. L. Studebaker. - -Mr. BELIN. Who is he? - -Mr. DAY. At my direction. - -Mr. BELIN. Who is he? - -Mr. DAY. He is one of the officers who took this under my supervision, -and he accompanied me from the office to this building. - -Mr. BELIN. Can you see in this picture the location of the hulls? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could take this pen and circle the hulls -that you see there. - -Mr. McCLOY. I only see two. - -Mr. DAY. The other one doesn't show in this picture, I don't believe. - -Mr. BELIN. You have circled two hulls that appear to be resting near -what would be the south wall of the building; is that correct? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Can you see the third hull in that picture? - -Mr. DAY. I think you can barely see the tip end of it sticking out -there. I believe that is it. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you want to circle where you think you can see the third -tip sticking out? I am now going to hand you what is marked "Commission -Exhibit No. 716," and ask you to state, if you know, what this is. - -Mr. DAY. This is another view taken from a different angle of the same -location. All three hulls are clearly visible here. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you circle the three hulls on Exhibit 716? Do you know -whether or not Exhibit 716 and Exhibit 715 were taken before these -hulls were moved? - -Mr. DAY. They were taken before anything was moved, to the best of my -knowledge. I was advised when I got there nothing had been moved. - -Mr. BELIN. Who so advised you? - -Mr. DAY. I believe it was Detective Sims standing there, but I could be -wrong about that. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, turning again to Exhibit 715, I notice that there is a -box in a window which is partially open. I am going to first ask you to -state what window this is. - -Mr. DAY. This is the south window closest to Houston Street or, in -other words, it is the easternmost window on the south side of the -building on the sixth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this window in about the same location with respect to -how far it was open at the time you got there? - -Mr. DAY. That is the position it was in when I got there. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. I notice boxes throughout the picture, including -the box in the window. To the best of your knowledge, had any of those -boxes been moved prior to the time the picture, Exhibit 715, was taken? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir; they had not. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I am going to show you a picture which has been -identified previously in Commission testimony as Commission Exhibit -482, which purports to have been a picture taken by a newspaper -photographer shortly after the assassination, showing the easternmost -windows on the south side of the fifth and the sixth floor of the Texas -School Book Depository Building. - -You will notice there are two Negro males looking out of the lower pair -of windows, which would be the fifth-floor windows, and above that -there is one window which appears to be open with a box or boxes in it. - -I am going to first ask you to state whether or not the boxes in that -picture, Exhibit 482, appear to be in the same location as you saw them -when you first got on the crime scene. - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I believe they are. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, as you face the picture, the box to the right, which -would be to the east, has a corner sticking out, or just a corner of -the box shows. Is that the same box that appears to be resting on the -window ledge in Exhibit 715? - -Mr. DAY. In my opinion, it is. - -Mr. BELIN. I also note there is another box that appears to be in the -window on Exhibit 482. Is this box shown at all on either Exhibit 715 -or 716, if you know? - -Mr. DAY. No; I don't think it is. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you think happened to this other box in the window -on Exhibit 482? - -Mr. DAY. I think the box you see through the window is to the west of -the box you see here. - -Mr. BELIN. You are pointing out that the box you see in the window, and -you are now pointing to Exhibit 482---- - -Mr. DAY. I think that is east of the four boxes shown in your No. 715. -Well, there are---- - -Mr. BELIN. Let me give you another question. On Exhibit 715 there is -only one box shown in the window actually resting on the ledge, which -is the box that you identified the corner out of in the eastern part of -the window shown on 482. - -Now, what is the fact as to whether or not this other box on 482 would -have been resting on the ledge, or is it a pictorial view of something -that actually was in back of the window? - -Mr. DAY. I think this is one of the boxes 2 feet 11 inches back from -the wall. There were two stacks of them, one behind the window sill -that you see here. - -Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the window sill between the pair of -windows on Exhibit 482? - -Mr. DAY. That you can't see in this picture. This one is the other one -I am trying to say, this stack here--there are two stacks of boxes -here. This one is behind here. You can't see it. - -Mr. BELIN. What you are pointing is, as you point to Exhibit 715, you -are saying that the tier of boxes which is in the left foreground, if -you were standing outside taking a picture, would be hidden by the -heavy beam between the windows, but beyond that, to the east of that, -there is another tier of boxes of which you think this other box in -Exhibit 482 is one; am I correct? Is this correct? - -Mr. DAY. That is correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Handing you Exhibit 716, will you see this at all on Exhibit -716? - -Mr. DAY. This is the box, I think, showing here. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you want to make an X on the box on Exhibit 716 that you -think is the other box showing in the window on Exhibit 482? - -Mr. DAY. The corner that is showing I don't believe shows in the -picture. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. You put an X on a box which I would say, looking -at this picture, appears to be the fourth box starting from the bottom -count, and you believe that is the picture or--that is the box that is -shown in the window? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. DAY. I don't know what time this was taken. Do you? - -Mr. BELIN. Well, you are asking with regard to Exhibit 482? We know it -was taken, I would say, not more than a minute after the shooting. This -is our best recollection based on testimony of the two people in the -window below, because this was their position as they saw the shooting, -and the photographer himself says that after the shots were fired, he -jumped out of the motorcade and took two shots of the building. This -could have been the first or the second shot he took. He used two -different cameras, so I don't imagine it would have been very long -after the actual shots were fired. - -For the record, I should add one other thing at this point. There is -testimony by the deputy sheriff that found the shells, that after he -found them he leaned out of the window to call down to try and tell -someone that he found something, and it is conceivable that he moved a -box, although he did not so testify. In other words, I don't want you -to take this as the testimony of anyone---- - -Mr. DAY. What I am getting at, this box doesn't jibe with my picture of -the inside. - -Mr. BELIN. You are pointing now to the other box on Exhibit 482. You -say that does not jibe with the chart that you have here that you -brought with you of boxes that you had inside. - -Let me ask you this: When did you prepare your chart of boxes inside? - -Mr. DAY. This chart here was prepared on the 25th. However, pictures -were made immediately after my arrival. - -Mr. BELIN. You are talking now about Exhibit 715 and Exhibit 716? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; don't jibe with that box there. - -Mr. BELIN. What I am asking you then is this: Is it possible that -the box that is shown on Exhibit 482 is not shown on Exhibit 715 and -Exhibit 716? By that I mean not the box that you see a corner of, but -I am talking about the other box that is clear to the west of the -easternmost window. - -Mr. DAY. I just don't know. I can't explain that box there depicted -from the outside as related to the pictures that I took inside. - -Mr. BELIN. In other words, what you are saying is that on the sixth -floor window the westernmost box on Exhibit 482, you cannot then relate -to any of the boxes shown on Exhibits 715 or 716? - -Mr. DAY. That is correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you wish to correct your testimony with regard to the X -you placed on the fourth box on the stack in Exhibit 716? - -Mr. DAY. Yes; that is just not the same box. It is not the same box. -This is the first time I have seen No. 482. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. We will substitute for 716 then a copy of the -picture without the X mark on it. - -Mr. McCLOY. 482 was taken by the news photographer? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Immediately after the shooting? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. The two colored men were still in the position where they -were? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. He actually took two pictures. He took one of -the building--that showed most of the south side of the building, -and another with a different kind of lens that was aimed up to that -particular corner. I will check to see if I can find the other picture, -Mr McCloy. Commission Exhibit 480 is the first picture that he took, or -I shouldn't say the first--one of the two pictures he took. - -You can see the southeast corner window on the sixth floor, and I will -show you, Lieutenant Day, that you can still see two of those boxes -there, and you can see on the window below, at least you can see, one -of the Negro men. The other picture was Exhibit 481, and I believe 482 -was actually an enlargement of 481. - -Mr. DAY. I still don't quite understand that one in relation to -pictures here unless something was moved after this was taken before I -got there. - -Mr. BELIN. What you are saving is on that southeast corner window, on -the sixth floor, you do not understand the box that is the westernmost -box of the two boxes in the window unless it was moved by someone -before you got there to take the pictures? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the other box as shown on Exhibit 482, does that -appear to be in substantially the same position as the box in the -window shown on your Exhibit 715? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; it appears to be the same. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, on Exhibit 715, that box appears to be almost resting -against the east part of the window where it does not so appear on -Exhibit 482. Is this an optical illusion on 715? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I don't think it was up against the window sill. It -was over as indicated on 482. - -Mr. BELIN. Lieutenant Day, you took some two pictures of those shell -casings. Let me first get you through all the pictures you took. - -Where did you next take pictures on the sixth floor after you took the -pictures of the shell casing; what did you do then? - -Mr. DAY. I went, after these were taken--after your number---- - -Mr. BELIN. 715 and 716. - -Mr. DAY. Were taken, I processed these three hulls for fingerprints, -using a powder. Mr. Sims picked them up by the ends and handed them -to me. I processed each of the three; did not find fingerprints. As -I had finished that, Captain Fritz sent word for me to come to the -northwest part of the building, the rifle had been found, and he wanted -photographs. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. You have mentioned these three hulls. Did you put -any initials on those at all, any means of identification? - -Mr. DAY. At that time they were placed in an envelope and the envelope -marked. The three hulls were not marked at that time. Mr. Sims took -possession of them. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, did you at any time put any mark on the shells? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Let me first hand you what has been marked as -"Commission Exhibit," part of "Commission Exhibit 543-544," and ask you -to state if you know what that is. - -Mr. DAY. This is the envelope the shells were placed in. - -Mr. BELIN. How many shells were placed in that envelope? - -Mr. DAY. Three. - -Mr. BELIN. It says here that, it is written on here, "Two of the three -spent hulls under window on sixth floor." - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you put all three there? - -Mr. DAY. Three were in there when they were turned over to Detective -Sims at that time. The only writing on it was, "Lieut. J. C. Day." Down -here at the bottom. - -Mr. BELIN. I see. - -Mr. DAY. "Dallas Police Department," and the date. - -Mr. BELIN. In other words, you didn't put the writing in that says, -"Two of the three spent hulls." - -Mr. DAY. Not then. About 10 o'clock in the evening this envelope came -back to me with two hulls in it. I say it came to me, it was in a group -of stuff, a group of evidence, we were getting ready to release to the -FBI. I don't know who brought them back. Vince Drain, FBI, was present -with the stuff, the first I noticed it. At that time there were two -hulls inside. - -I was advised the homicide division was retaining the third for their -use. At that time I marked the two hulls inside of this, still inside -this envelope. - -Mr. BELIN. That envelope, which is a part of Commission Exhibits 543 -and 544? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I put the additional marking on at that time. - -Mr. BELIN. I see. - -Mr. DAY. You will notice there is a little difference in the ink -writing. - -Mr. BELIN. But all of the writing there is yours? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, at what time did you put any initials, if you did put -any such initials, on the hull itself? - -Mr. DAY. At about 10 o'clock when I noticed it back in the -identification bureau in this envelope. - -Mr. BELIN. Had the envelope been opened yet or not? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; it had been opened. - -Mr. BELIN. Had the shells been out of your possession then? - -Mr. DAY. Mr. Sims had the shells from the time they were moved from the -building or he took them from me at that time, and the shells I did not -see again until around 10 o'clock. - -Mr. BELIN. Who gave them to you at 10 o'clock? - -Mr. DAY. They were in this group of evidence being collected to turn -over to the FBI. I don't know who brought them back. - -Mr. BELIN. Was the envelope sealed? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Had it been sealed when you gave it to Mr. Sims? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir; no. - -Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked "Exhibit 545," I will ask -you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. This is one of the hulls in the envelope which I opened at 10 -o'clock. It has my name written on the end of it. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say, on the end of it, where on the end of it? - -Mr. DAY. On the small end where the slug would go. - -Mr. BELIN. And it has "Day" on it? - -Mr. DAY. Scratched on there; yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. With what instrument did you scratch it on? - -Mr. DAY. A diamond point pencil. - -Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else scratch any initials on it that you know of? - -Mr. DAY. I didn't see them. I didn't examine it too close at that time. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know what kind of a cartridge case that is? - -Mr. DAY. It is a 6.5. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that the same kind of a cartridge case that you saw when -you first saw these cartridge cases? - -Mr. DAY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any other testimony you have with regard to the -chain of possession of this shell from the time it was first found -until the time it got back to your office? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir; I told you in our conversation in Dallas that I -marked those at the scene. After reviewing my records, I didn't think -I was on all three of those hulls that you have, indicating I did not -mark them at the scene, then I remembered putting them in the envelope, -and Sims taking them. - -It was further confirmed today when I noticed that the third hull, -which I did not give you, or come to me through you, does not have my -mark on it. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I did interview you approximately 2 weeks ago in -Dallas, more or less? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. At that time what is the fact as to whether or not I went -into extended questions and answers as contrasted with just asking -you to tell me about certain areas as to what happened? I mean, I -questioned you, of course, but was it more along the lines of just -asking you to tell me what happened, or more along the lines of -interrogation, the interrogation we are doing now? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Which one? - -Mr. DAY. Wait a minute now. Say that again. I am at a loss. - -Mr. BELIN. Maybe it would be easier if I just struck the question and -started all over again. - -Mr. DAY. I remember you asking me if I marked them. - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. DAY. I remember I told you I did. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. DAY. I got to reviewing this, and I got to wondering about whether -I did mark those at the scene. - -Mr. BELIN. Your testimony now is that you did not mark any of the hulls -at the scene? - -Mr. DAY. Those three; no, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I believe you said that you examined the three shells today? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. While you were waiting to have your testimony taken here? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; that is what confirmed my thinking on this. The -envelope now was marked. - -Mr. BELIN. And the shells were in the same envelope that it was marked? - -Mr. DAY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I am going to ask you to state if you know what -Commission Exhibit 543 is? - -Mr. DAY. That is a hull that does not have my marking on it. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not this was one of the hulls that -was found at the School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. DAY. I think it is. - -Mr. BELIN. What makes you think it is? - -Mr. DAY. It has the initials "G. D." on it, which is George Doughty, -the captain that I worked under. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he there at the scene? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir; this hull came up, this hull that is not marked came -up, later. I didn't send that. - -Mr. BELIN. This was---- - -Mr. DAY. That was retained. That is the hull that was retained by -homicide division when the other two were originally sent in with the -gun. - -Mr. BELIN. You are referring now to Commission Exhibit 543 as being the -one that was retained in your possession for a while? - -Mr. DAY. It is the one that I did not see again. - -Mr. BELIN. It appears to be flattened out here. Do you know or have you -any independent recollection as to whether or not it was flattened out -at the small end when you saw it? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit -544, I will ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. This is the second hull that was in the envelope when I marked -the two hulls that night on November 22. - -Mr. BELIN. I have now marked this envelope, which was formerly a part -of Commission Exhibits 543 and 544 with a separate Commission Exhibit -No. 717, and I believe you testify now that Commission Exhibit 544 was -the other shell that was in the envelope which has now been marked as -Commission Exhibit No. 717. - -Mr. DAY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Does that cartridge case, Exhibit 544, have your name on it -again? - -Mr. DAY. It has my name on the small end where the slug would go into -the shell. - -Mr. BELIN. Are all of the three shells of the same caliber? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any other testimony you have with regard to the -cartridge cases themselves? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Can you explain how you processed these shells for -fingerprints? - -Mr. DAY. With black fingerprint---- - -Mr. McCLOY. May I ask before you get to that, is this all your -handwriting? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. The narrative as well as the signature? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; this and this. That is not, this is not. - -Mr. McCLOY. Who is that, what is that initial, do you know? - -Mr. DAY. I think that is Vince Drain, the FBI agent it was released to. -It looks like a "V. D." I don't know whether his initial is "E" or not. - -Mr. McCLOY. Can you identify those marks up there, what they are? - -Mr. DAY. Those "Q" numbers, I believe, are FBI numbers affixed here in -Washington. - -Mr. BELIN. Returning to Exhibit 717---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Not returning. That is what that last question was about. - -Mr. BELIN. I believe the last questions were the initials on the -cartridge cases. Strike the question then. - -We will start all over again. On Commission Exhibit No. 717 I see some -initials with the notation "11-22-63" in the upper left-hand corner as -you take a look at the side which has all of your writing on it here. -Do you know whose initials those are? - -Mr. DAY. I think it is Vince Drain, FBI, but I am not sure. - -Mr. BELIN. You think it is the initials of Vincent E. Drain? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I am not sure if his middle initial is "E". I know -it is Vince Drain. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, on the other side I see some other initials on here -with some date and time. Do you know whose initials those are? - -Mr. DAY. "R. M. S." stands for R. M. Sims, the detective whom I turned -it over to. That is the date and the time that he took it from me. - -Mr. BELIN. What date and time does it show? - -Mr. DAY. November 22, 1963, 1:23 p.m. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe you originally stated that you had all three -of these cartridge hulls put in Exhibit 717, is that correct? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And then you turned it over to Detective Sims? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Was the envelope sealed when you turned it over to Detective -Sims? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir; I don't think so. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you seal it? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got the envelope back later that night was the -envelope sealed? - -Mr. DAY. I don't think so. - -Mr. BELIN. To the best of your knowledge, had it been sealed and -reopened or was it just unsealed? - -Mr. DAY. To the best of my knowledge it was not sealed. It is possible -I could be wrong on that, but I don't think it was sealed. - -Mr. McCLOY. In order to make the record perfectly clear, at least my -understanding perfectly clear, did I understand that you testified that -your initial which appears on that exhibit was--not your initial but -your signature which appears on that exhibit was--put on there before -the other writing, namely to the effect that there were two of the -three hulls enclosed, that was put on the envelope? - -Mr. BELIN. You are referring, Mr. McCloy, to the signature on the -bottom of Commission Exhibit 717, "Lieutenant J. C. Day." - -Mr. McCLOY. That is what I am referring to. - -Mr. DAY. That was put on there before. - -Mr. McCLOY. That was put on there---- - -Mr. DAY. At 1:23 p.m. - -Mr. BELIN. And the remainder of the writing was put on that night at -the Dallas Police Department, is that right? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; about the same time that I marked those two hulls. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us what exactly you did in testing those -hulls for fingerprints? - -Mr. DAY. I used fingerprint powder, dusted them with the powder, a dark -powder. No legible prints were found. - -Mr. BELIN. After you did this, you dusted the prints and you put them -in the envelope, 717, and then what did you do? - -Mr. DAY. I released them to Detective Sims or rather he took them. - -Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do? - -Mr. DAY. At that time I was summoned to the northwest corner of the -building. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. DAY. Sir? - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. DAY. I met Captain Fritz. He wanted photographs of the rifle before -it was moved. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if Captain Fritz told you that the rifle had -not been moved? - -Mr. DAY. He told me he wanted photographs before it was moved, if I -remember correctly. He definitely told me it had not been moved, and -the reason for the photographs he wanted it photographed before it was -moved. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what the reporter has marked or what -has been marked as Commission Exhibit 718, and ask you to state, if you -know, what this is. - -Mr. DAY. This is a photograph made by me of the rifle where it was -found in the northwest portion of the sixth floor, 411 Elm Street, -Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as Commission -Exhibit 719 and ask you to state if you know what that is. - -Mr. DAY. It is a picture of the portion of the northwest floor where -the rifle was found. This is a distance shot showing the stack of boxes. - -Mr. BELIN. Is Commission Exhibit 718 a print from the same negative as -Commission Exhibit 514? - -Mr. DAY. The same negative? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DAY. No, I don't think so. This is a copy of this picture. - -Mr. BELIN. You are saying 514 was made, I assume, as a copy of 718. By -that you mean a negative, a second negative, was made of 718 from which -514 was taken? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Otherwise it is the same? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. 718 appears to be a little clearer and sharper. - -Mr. DAY. You can tell from looking at the two pictures which is the -copy. - -Mr. BELIN. Was any other picture of that rifle made in that position? - -Mr. DAY. Nos. 22 and 23 were both made. - -Mr. BELIN. Your pictures which you have marked No. 22 and No. 23 were -both made, one was made by you, is that Commission Exhibit 718---- - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And the other was made by---- - -Mr. DAY. Detective Studebaker. - -Mr. BELIN. Whose knee appears? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; showing. Identical shots, we just made both to be -sure that one of us made it, and it would be in focus. - -Mr. BELIN. For this reason I am introducing only 718, if that is -satisfactory. - -Mr. McCLOY. Very well. - -Mr. BELIN. How did you stand to take the picture, Exhibit 718? - -Mr. DAY. I was on top of a stack of boxes to the south of where the gun -was found. - -Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could put on Exhibit 719 the location with -an "X" where you stood to take the picture, 718. - -Mr. DAY. I was in that position looking this way, but you can't tell -which box I was on looking from that angle. - -Mr BELIN. I mean, you have placed an "X" on Exhibit 719. Were you -sitting or standing on top of a stack of boxes in that general area? - -Mr. DAY. Kneeling. - -Mr. BELIN. Kneeling? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. In what direction would your face have been? - -Mr. DAY. Facing north and down. - -Mr. BELIN. Facing north and looking down? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; to the floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Can you see the rifle at all in Exhibit 719? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Had the rifle been removed when 719 was taken, if you know? - -Mr. DAY. I don't remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you locate with an arrow on Exhibit 719 the place -where the rifle would have been? - -Mr. DAY. Here. - -Mr. BELIN. You have so noted with an arrow on 719. Was the rifle -resting on the floor or not? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. It was? - -Mr. DAY. The rifle was resting on the floor. - -Mr. BELIN. What else did you do in connection with the rifle at that -particular time? - -Mr. DAY. Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I -asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I -picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too -rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain -Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you initial that live round at all? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; my name is on it. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you place your name on this live round, if you -remember? - -Mr. DAY. How? - -Mr. BELIN. When? - -Mr. DAY. At the time, that was marked at the scene. - -Mr. BELIN. Handing you Commission Exhibit No. 141. I will ask you to -state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. It has "Day" on it where I scratched it on the small end where -the slug goes into the shell. - -Mr. BELIN. What is this, what is Exhibit 141? - -Mr. DAY. That is the live round that fell from the rifle when Captain -Fritz opened the bolt. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do with this after you put your name on it? - -Mr. DAY. Captain Fritz took possession of it. I retained possession of -the rifle. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you process this live round at all for prints? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I did. I did not find any prints. - -Mr. McCLOY. Before Captain Fritz ejected the live cartridge, did you -dust the rifle for fingerprints? - -Mr. DAY. Not before. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you dust the bolt for fingerprints? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Before the live round was ejected? - -Mr. DAY. No, no; the only part that Captain Fritz touched was the round -nob. I looked at it through a glass and decided there was not a print -there, and it would be safe for him to open the bolt. - -Mr. BELIN. You did this before it was ejected, before the live round -was ejected? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Who held the rifle while you looked at it with the glass? - -Mr. DAY. I held it. - -Mr. BELIN. In one hand? - -Mr. DAY. One hand, using the glass with the other. - -Mr. BELIN. How did you try to process the live round for prints? - -Mr. DAY. With black fingerprint powder. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this in an effort, perhaps, to save time. In -all of your processing of prints did you use anything other than this -black powder at the scene that day? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. So whenever you say you processed for prints you used black -powder, is that correct? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. When was the rifle as such dusted with fingerprint powder? - -Mr. DAY. After ejecting the live round, then I gave my attention to -the rifle. I put fingerprint powder on the side of the rifle over the -magazine housing. I noticed it was rather rough. - -I also noticed there were traces of two prints visible. I told Captain -Fritz it was too rough to do there, it should go to the office where I -would have better facilities for trying to work with the fingerprints. - -Mr. McCLOY. But you could note with your naked eye or with a magnifying -glass the remnants of fingerprints on the stock? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I could see traces of ridges, fingerprint ridges, on -the side of the housing. - -Mr. BELIN. Lieutenant Day, as I understand it, you held the stock of -the rifle when Captain Fritz operated the bolt? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, when you first came over to see the rifle, was it -easily visible or not? - -Mr. DAY. I beg pardon? - -Mr. BELIN. When you first came over to see the rifle, when you were -first called there, what is the fact as to whether or not it was easily -visible? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir; you had to look over the box and down to see it. You -could not see it ordinarily walking down the aisle. - -Mr. BELIN. Was anything resting on top of it? - -Mr. DAY. On top of the gun? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. DAY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate as to how wide or what the width -was of that particular area in which the rifle was placed? In other -words, the area between the boxes, how much space was there? - -Mr. DAY. It was just wide enough to accommodate that rifle and hold it -in an upright position. - -Mr. BELIN. Was the location at which you found the rifle completely -surrounded by boxes or was it kind of like two parallel rows of boxes -without boxes at either end of it? - -Mr. DAY. There was three or four rows of boxes there. - -Mr. BELIN. What I mean is this: If you can visualize a narrow squared -"O," was it more like a narrow squared "O" so far as the boxes were -concerned, with sort of an island of space in the center or was it more -like just two basic rows of boxes with nothing at either end? - -Mr. DAY. I don't quite follow you there. - -Mr. BELIN. I will restate the question this way. - -Mr. DAY. There were four parallel lines of boxes. The second line from -the north side was not completely filled. In other words, there was -vacant places in this particular line. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission -Exhibit 139 and ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. This is the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas Book -Store at 411 Elm Street, November 23, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. What date? - -Mr. DAY. November 22, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. Does it have any identification mark of yours on it? - -Mr. DAY. It has my name "J. C. Day" scratched on the stock. - -Mr. BELIN. And on the stock you are pointing to your name which is -scratched as you would hold the rifle and rest it on the stock, -approximately an inch or so from the bottom of the stock on the sling -side of the stock, is that correct? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have any recollection as to what the serial number -was of that? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I recorded it at the time, C-2566. - -Mr. BELIN. Before you say that---- - -Mr. DAY. C-2766, excuse me. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have any record of that with you or not? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; this is the record I made of the gun when I took it -back to the office. Now, the gun did not leave my possession. - -Mr. BELIN. From the time it was found at the School Book Depository -Building? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I took the gun myself and retained possession, took -it to the office where I dictated---- - -Mr. BELIN. Could you just read into the record what you dictated. - -Mr. DAY. To my secretary. She wrote on the typewriter: "4 x 18, coated, -Ordinance Optics, Inc., Hollywood, California, 010 Japan. OSC inside a -clover-leaf design." - -Mr. BELIN. What did that have reference to? - -Mr. DAY. That was stamped on the scopic sight on top of the gun. On the -gun itself, "6.5 caliber C-2766, 1940 made in Italy." That was what was -on the gun. - -I dictated certain other stuff, other information, for her to type for -me. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, you might just as well dictate the rest there. - -Mr. DAY. "When bolt opened one live round was in the barrel. No prints -are on the live round. Captain Fritz and Lieutenant Day opened the -barrel. Captain Fritz has the live round. Three spent hulls were found -under the window. They were picked up by Detective Sims and witnessed -by Lieutenant Day and Studebaker. The clip is stamped 'SMI, 9 x 2.'" - -Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us what other processing you did with this -particular rifle? - -Mr. DAY. Beg pardon? - -Mr. BELIN. What other processing did you do with this particular rifle? - -Mr. DAY. I took it to the office and tried to bring out the two prints -I had seen on the side of the gun at the bookstore. They still were -rather unclear. Due to the roughness of the metal, I photographed them -rather than try to lift them. - -I could also see a trace of a print on the side of the barrel that -extended under the woodstock. I started to take the woodstock off and -noted traces of a palmprint near the firing end of the barrel about 3 -inches under the woodstock when I took the woodstock loose. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean 3 inches from the small end of the woodstock? - -Mr. DAY. Right--yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. From the firing end of the barrel, you mean the muzzle? - -Mr. DAY. The muzzle; yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me clarify the record. By that you mean you found it on -the metal or you mean you found it on the wood? - -Mr. DAY. On the metal, after removing the wood. - -Mr. BELIN. The wood. You removed the wood, and then underneath the wood -is where you found the print? - -Mr. DAY. On the bottom side of the barrel which was covered by the -wood, I found traces of a palmprint. I dusted these and tried lifting -them, the prints, with scotch tape in the usual manner. A faint -palmprint came off. - -I could still see traces of the print under the barrel and was going to -try to use photography to bring off or bring out a better print. About -this time I received instructions from the chief's office to go no -further with the processing, it was to be released to the FBI for them -to complete. I did not process the underside of the barrel under the -scopic sight, did not get to this area of the gun. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know what Commission Exhibit No. 637 is? - -Mr. DAY. This is the trace of palmprint I lifted off of the barrel of -the gun after I had removed the wood. - -Mr. BELIN. Does it have your name on it or your handwriting? - -Mr. DAY. It has the name "J. C. Day," and also "11/22/63" written on it -in my writing off the underside gun barrel near the end of foregrip, -C-2766. - -Mr. BELIN. When you lift a print is it then harder to make a photograph -of that print after it is lifted or doesn't it make any difference? - -Mr. DAY. It depends. If it is a fresh print, and by fresh I mean hadn't -been there very long and dried, practically all the print will come off -and there will be nothing left. If it is an old print, that is pretty -well dried, many times you can still see it after the lift. In this -case I could still see traces of print on that barrel. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you do anything with the other prints or partial prints -that you said you thought you saw? - -Mr. DAY. I photographed them only. I did not try to lift them. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have those photographs, sir? I will mark the two -photographs which you have just produced Commission Exhibits 720 and -721. I will ask you to state what these are. - -Mr. DAY. These are prints or pictures, I should say, of the latent--of -the traces of prints on the side of the magazine housing of the gun No. -C-2766. - -Mr. BELIN. Were those prints in such condition as to be identifiable, -if you know? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir; I could not make positive identification of these -prints. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have enough opportunity to work and get these -pictures or not? - -Mr. DAY. I worked with them, yes. I could not exclude all possibility -as to identification. I thought I knew which they were, but I could not -positively identify them. - -Mr. BELIN. What was your opinion so far as it went as to whose they -were? - -Mr. DAY. They appeared to be the right middle and right ring finger of -Harvey Lee Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. BELIN. At the time you had this did you have any comparison -fingerprints to make with the actual prints of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; we had sets in Captain Fritz' office. Oswald was in -his custody, we had made palmprints and fingerprints of him. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any other processing that you did with the rifle? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. At what time, if you know, did you release the rifle to the -FBI? - -Mr. DAY. 11:45 p.m. the rifle was released or picked up by them and -taken from the office. - -Mr. BELIN. Was that on November 22? - -Mr. DAY. November 22, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. At what time did these same photographs which are the same -as Commission Exhibit 720 and 721 of this print---- - -Mr. DAY. About 8 o'clock, somewhere around 8 o'clock, in that -neighborhood. - -Mr. BELIN. Of what date? - -Mr. DAY. November 22, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the lift which has previously been marked as -Commission Exhibit 637? - -Mr. DAY. About what? - -Mr. BELIN. When did you turn that over to the FBI? - -Mr. DAY. I released that to them on November 26, 1963. I did not -release this---- - -Mr. BELIN. You are referring now---- - -Mr. DAY. On November 22. - -Mr. BELIN. You are referring to Commission Exhibit 637? - -Mr. DAY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular reason why this was not released on -the 22d? - -Mr. DAY. The gun was being sent in to them for process of prints. -Actually I thought the print on the gun was their best bet, still -remained on there, and, too, there was another print, I thought -possibly under the wood part up near the trigger housing. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean the remaining traces of the powder you had when you -got the lift, Exhibit 637, is that what you mean by the lift of the -remaining print on the gun? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. Actually it was dried ridges on there. There were -traces of ridges still on the gun barrel. - -Mr. BELIN. Can you tell the circumstances under which you sent Exhibit -637 to the FBI? - -Mr. DAY. We released certain evidence to the FBI, including the gun, on -November 22. It was returned to us on November 24. Then on November 26 -we received instructions to send back to the FBI everything that we had. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you do that? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; and at that time I sent the lift marked---- - -Mr. BELIN. 637. - -Mr. DAY. Yes. The gun was sent back again, and all of the other -evidence that I had, including cartons from Texas Bookstore, and -various other items, a rather lengthy list. - -Mr. BELIN. Had the FBI in the interim returned the gun to you then -after you sent it to them on November 22? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When the rifle was photographed, as I understand it, you -were the one who lifted it out of there, is that correct? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it wedged in very tight or could you readily lift it up -without moving any boxes? - -Mr. DAY. It came out without moving any boxes. It wasn't wedged in. - -Mr. McCLOY. Am I to understand your testimony, Lieutenant, about the -fingerprints to be you said you were positive--you couldn't make a -positive identification, but it was your opinion that these were the -fingerprints of Lee Oswald? - -Mr. DAY. Well, actually in fingerprinting it either is or is not the -man. So I wouldn't say those were his prints. They appeared similar -to these two, certainly bore further investigation to see if I could -bring them out better. But from what I had I could not make a positive -identification as being his prints. - -Mr. McCLOY. How about the palmprint? - -Mr. DAY. The palmprint again that I lifted appeared to be his right -palm, but I didn't get to work enough on that to fully satisfy myself -it was his palm. With a little more work I would have come up with the -identification there. - -Mr. BELIN. Lieutenant Day, what is the fact as to whether or not -palmprints are a sound means of identification of an individual? - -Mr. DAY. You have the same characteristics of the palms that you do -the fingers, also on the soles of feet. They are just as good for -identification purposes. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you did in connection with the rifle, -the cartridges, the live cartridge, or the taking of prints from any of -these metallic objects that you haven't talked about yet? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir; I believe that is the extent of the prints on any of -those articles. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you make a positive identification of any palmprint or -fingerprint? - -Mr. DAY. Not off the rifle or slug at that time. - -Mr, BELIN. At any other time did you off the rifle or the slugs? - -Mr. DAY. After I have been looking at that thing again here today, that -is his right palm. But at that time I had not no---- - -Mr. BELIN. When you are saying you looked at that thing today, to what -are you referring? - -Mr. DAY. Your No. 637 is the right palm of Oswald. - -Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked "Exhibit 629" I ask you to -state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. That is the right palm of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know where this print was taken? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; it was taken by Detective J. B. Hicks in Captain -Fritz' office on November 22, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you take more than one right palmprint on that day, if -you know? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; we took two, actually we took three. Two of them -were taken in Captain Fritz' office, and one set which I witnessed -taking myself in the identification bureau. - -Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you took more than one? - -Mr. DAY. In most cases, when making comparisons, we will take at least -two to insure we have a good clear print of the entire palm. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, based---- - -Mr. DAY. One might be smeared where the other would not. - -Mr. BELIN. Based on your experience, I will ask you now for a -definitive statement as to whether or not you can positively identify -the print shown on Commission Exhibit 637 as being from the right palm -of Lee Harvey Oswald as shown on Commission Exhibit 629? - -Mr. DAY. Maybe I shouldn't absolutely make a positive statement without -further checking that. I think it is his, but I would have to sit down -and take two glasses to make an additional comparison before I would -say absolutely, excluding all possibility, it is. I think it is, but I -would have to do some more work on that. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you do that here in Washington before you go back, -sir, or would this necessitate going back to Dallas? - -Mr. DAY. If I had the proper equipment I think I could do it here. I -don't have very good equipment for making comparisons here. I need two -fingerprint glasses. - -It was my understanding the prints had been identified by the FBI. I -don't have official word on it. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any other thing that you did with regard to the -rifle that you haven't discussed this far that you can remember right -now? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir; I released it to the FBI then, and they took -possession of it. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever hear this rifle referred to as a 7.65 Mauser or -as any type of a Mauser? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; it wasn't referred to as that. Some of the newsmen, -when I first carried the rifle out, asked me if it was a .30-06, and at -another time they asked me if it was a Mauser. I did not give them an -answer. - -Mr. BELIN. Were there newsmen on the sixth floor at the time the rifle -was found, if you know? - -Mr. DAY. I think there was. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever describe the rifle as anything but a -6.5-caliber with regard to the rifle itself? - -Mr. DAY. I didn't describe the rifle to anyone other than police -officers. - -Mr. BELIN. Is the description that you used with the police officers -the same that you dictated here into the record from your notes? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else with regard to the rifle? - -Mr. DAY. I can't think of anything else that I did with it at the time. - -I don't know whether you are interested in this or not, but about, -it must have been about 8:30 I was processing the gun on the fourth -floor---- - -Mr. BELIN. Of the police department there? - -Mr. DAY. Of the police department where my office is. The -identification bureau. And Captain Fritz came up and said he had Mrs. -Oswald in his office on the third floor, but the place was so jammed -with news cameramen and newsmen he did not want to bring her out into -it. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this the wife or the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. DAY. That was Marina, Oswald's wife. She had her baby with her, or -babies, and there was an interpreter down there. He wanted her to look -at the gun to see if she could identify it, didn't want to bring her -in through the crowd, and wanted to know if we could carry it down. He -said, "There is an awful mob down there." - -I explained to him that I was still working with the prints, but I -thought I could carry it down without disturbing the prints, which I -did. - -We waded through the mob with me holding the gun up high. No one -touched it. Several of the newsmen asked me various questions about -what the gun was at that time. I did not give them an answer. - -When I went back to the office after Marina Oswald viewed the gun, they -still were hounding me for it. I told them to check with the chief's -office, he would have to give them the information, and as soon as I -got back to my office I gave a complete description, and so forth, to -Captain King on the gun. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you there when Marina Oswald was asked whether or not -she could identify it? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. But I didn't understand what she said. I was -standing across the room from her where I couldn't understand. The -interpreter said something to her and said something to Captain Fritz. -I didn't catch what was said. I mentioned that because there was some -talk about a Mauser and .30-06 at the time and various other things, -that is the reason I mentioned it. - -Mr. BELIN. You just refused to answer all questions on that, is that -correct? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. It wasn't my place to give them that information. I -didn't know whether they wanted it out yet or not. - -Mr. McCLOY. There was never any doubt in your mind what the rifle was -from the minute you saw it? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir; It was stamped right on there, 6.5, and when en route -to the office with Mr. Odum, the FBI agent who drove me in, he radioed -it in, he radioed in what it was to the FBI over the air. - -Mr. BELIN. What else did you do, or what was the next thing you did -after you completed photographing and inspecting the rifle on the sixth -floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building for whatever prints -you could find, what did you do next? - -Mr. DAY. I took the gun at the time to the office and locked it up in a -box in my office at Captain Fritz' direction. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. DAY. I went back to the School Book Depository and stayed there. -It was around three that I got back, and I was in that building until -about 6, directing the other officers as to what we needed in the way -of photographs and some drawing, and so forth. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back, what photographs did you -take? - -Mr. DAY. We went, made the outside photographs of the street, we made -more photographs inside, and did further checking for prints by using -dust on the boxes around the window. - -Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked as "Commission Exhibit 722" -and ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. This is a view of Houston Street looking south from -the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know when that was taken? - -Mr. DAY. About 3 or 3:15, somewhere along there, on November 22, 1963. - -Mr. McCLOY. You say from the sixth floor; was it from the farthest east -window? - -Mr. DAY. The south window on the east end of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't mean that. State that again. What side of the -building was the window on? - -Mr. DAY. It was on the south side of the building, the easternmost -window. - -Mr. BELIN. At the time you took Exhibit 722 had any boxes been moved at -all? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Here is Exhibit 724, and I will ask you to state if you know -what that is. - -Mr. DAY. This is a view from the same window looking southwest down Elm -Street. Actually this is the direction the shots were fired. When this -picture was made---- - -Mr. BELIN. When you say this picture you are referring to--I think I -have skipped a number here. - -Mr. McCLOY. This is 722. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. When 722 was made, you---- - -Mr. DAY. I did not know the direction the shots had been fired. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. I'm going to hand you what I have already marked -as 724. What about that one? - -Mr. DAY. This was made, 724 was made, some 15 to 20 minutes after 722 -when I received information that the shooting actually occurred on Elm -rather than Houston Street. The boxes had been moved at that time. - -Mr. BELIN. In 724 there are boxes in the window. Were those boxes in -the window the way you saw them, or had they been replaced in the -window to reconstruct it? - -Mr. DAY. They had simply been moved in the processing for prints. They -weren't put back in any particular order. - -Mr. BELIN. So 724 does not represent, so far as the boxes are -concerned, the crime scene when you first came to the sixth floor; is -that correct? - -Mr. DAY. That is correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: Had all of the boxes of the stack in -724 been replaced there or had any of the boxes been in a position they -were at the time you first arrived at the building, if you know? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir; they had not been placed in the proper position or -approximate position at the time we arrived. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I am going to hand you what I will mark as "723" and -ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. 726---- - -Mr. BELIN. No; 723. - -Mr. DAY. 723 is the southeast corner of the sixth floor of the Texas -School Book Depository Building. - -Mr. BELIN. Who took that picture, if you know? - -Mr. DAY. Detective Studebaker. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it taken under your direction and supervision, Mr. Day? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I was present. The two metal boxes you will note to -the left, are our fingerprint equipment that inadvertently got into the -picture with a wide-angle lens camera. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say to the left---- - -Mr. DAY. To the right. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean as you face the picture to the right. - -Mr. DAY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you want to circle on Exhibit 723 your fingerprint -equipment? - -Mr. DAY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I will ask you to state if you know if this picture was -taken before any of the boxes shown on 723 were moved. - -Mr. DAY. To the best of my knowledge they had not been moved. - -Mr. BELIN. And straight ahead the camera is pointed toward it? - -Mr. DAY. To the south. - -Mr. BELIN. At which window? - -Mr. DAY. Toward the window where the hulls were found. - -Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as "725," and ask -you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. That is a view of the same window as 723 except it shows the -full length of the aisle. - -Mr. BELIN. Was 725 taken before the boxes were moved, if you know? - -Mr. DAY. I beg your pardon? - -Mr. BELIN. Was Commission Exhibit 725 taken before any boxes were -moved, if you know? - -Mr. DAY. To the best of my knowledge, nothing had been moved. - -Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as 726 and ask -you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. This is the next aisle over, or the next aisle west of the -aisle shown in 723. Actually, this was taken on November 25. Some -movement had been made of the boxes as shown in 723. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. So you now are saying Commission Exhibit 726 was -taken on November 25---- - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And there had been some movement of the boxes? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Generally did it depict the area as you saw it on November -22? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I am handing you Commission Exhibit 727 and ask you to state -if you know what that is. - -Mr. DAY. 727 is the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, -taken looking east along the inside of the south wall. - -Mr. BELIN. When was that taken? - -Mr. DAY. November 25, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. Just by general means of identification, perhaps it might -help to see when some pictures were taken and some pictures were not -taken. I think you can see on Exhibit 727 that the shadows show that -the sun would not as yet have reached a due south position. Is that -correct? - -Mr. DAY. That is correct. It was taken in the morning. This is the -morning shadow. - -Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked 728, would you state if you -know what this is? - -Mr. DAY. This is the third aisle from the east side of the building, -sixth floor, Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. BELIN. Was that taken on November 22 or November 25? - -Mr. DAY. It was taken on November 22, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. Again you can note the shadows at this time, and it would -appear as a southwesterly sun. - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I notice a pop bottle there. Do you know whether or not that -pop bottle was there at the time you got to the scene? - -Mr. DAY. It was, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it in the same relation as that two-wheeler cart, if you -know? - -Mr. DAY. To the best of my knowledge nothing had been moved there. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else with the pop bottle when you were -in that area? - -Mr. DAY. There was a brown-paper sack, like a lunch sack. - -Mr. BELIN. About how large? - -Mr. DAY. It does not show in the picture. - -Mr. BELIN. Where would the sack have been located? - -Mr. DAY. Sir? - -Mr. BELIN. Where would that sack have been located, if you know? - -Mr. DAY. I don't remember. - -Mr. BELIN. Would this have been at the third pair of windows counting -from the east; when you meant the third aisle, did you mean the third -set of windows also? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You mentioned a sack that would have been at that third -aisle. Was any kind of a sack found on the sixth floor, if you know? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What other kind of a sack was found? - -Mr. DAY. A homemade sack, brown paper with 3-inch tape found right in -the corner, the southeast corner of the building near where the slugs -were found. - -Mr. McCLOY. Near where the hulls were found? - -Mr. DAY. Near where the hulls. What did I say? - -Mr. McCLOY. Slugs. - -Mr. DAY. Hulls. - -Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Commission -Exhibit 729 and ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. 729 is a photograph of the inside wall, south and east walls, -right at the corner of the building at the sixth floor of the Texas -Book Depository. - -Mr. BELIN. I notice some pipes on the right portion of this picture as -you face it, and I also notice a box. - -I will first ask you to state if this picture was taken before or after -anything was removed from the area. - -Mr. DAY. The sack had been removed. - -Mr. BELIN. Had any change been made of the position of that box that is -set off by itself in the center of the picture? - -Mr. DAY. I don't think the box--well, it is possible the box had been -moved. This is an approximate position of it. The box had been dusted -for powder and--dusted for prints. The black powder is visible on it. -It is possible the box may have been moved a tiny bit. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was the sack found with relation to the pipes and that -box? - -Mr. DAY. Between the sack and the south wall, which would be the wall -at the top of the picture as shown here. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean between--you said the sack. - -Mr. DAY. I mean the pipe. The sack was between the pipe and the wall at -the top of the picture. - -Mr. BELIN. That wall at the top of the picture would be the east wall, -would it not? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; laying parallel to the south wall. - -Mr. BELIN. Did the sack--was it folded over in any way or just lying -flat, if you remember? - -Mr. DAY. It was folded over with the fold next to the pipe, to the best -of my knowledge. - -Mr. BELIN. I will now hand you what has been marked as Commission -Exhibit 626 and ask you to state if you know what this is, and also -appears to be marked as Commission Exhibit 142. - -Mr. DAY. This is the sack found on the sixth floor in the southeast -corner of the building on November 22, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have any identification on that to so indicate? - -Mr. DAY. It has my name on it, and it also has other writing that I put -on there for the information of the FBI. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you read what you wrote on there? - -Mr. DAY. "Found next to the sixth floor window gun fired from. May have -been used to carry gun. Lieutenant J. C. Day." - -Mr. BELIN. When did you write that? - -Mr. DAY. I wrote that at the time the sack was found before it left our -possession. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else that you wrote on there? - -Mr. DAY. When the sack was released on November 22 to the FBI about -11:45 p.m., I put further information to the FBI reading as follows: -"FBI: Has been dusted with metallic magnetic powder on outside only. -Inside has not been processed. Lieut. J. C. Day." - -Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything, any print of any kind, in connection -with the processing of this? - -Mr. DAY. No legible prints were found with the powder, no. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether any legible prints were found by any -other means or any other place? - -Mr. DAY. There is a legible print on it now. They were on there when it -was returned to me from the FBI on November 24. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know by what means they found these? - -Mr. DAY. It is apparently silver nitrate. It could be another compound -they have used. The sack had an orange color indicating it was silver -nitrate. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean the sack when it came back from the FBI had a---- - -Mr. DAY. Orange color. It is another method of processing paper for -fingerprints. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there anything inside the bag, if you know, when you -found it? - -Mr. DAY. I did not open the bag. I did not look inside of the bag at -all. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do with the bag after you found it and you put -this writing on after you dusted it? - -Mr. DAY. I released it to the FBI agent. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you take it down to the station with you? - -Mr. DAY. I didn't take it with me. I left it with the men when I left. -I left Detectives Hicks and Studebaker to bring this in with them when -they brought other equipment in. - -Mr. BELIN. By this you are referring to the bag itself? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever get the kind of sample used at the School Book -Depository? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; on the afternoon of November 22, 1963. I had the bag -listed as---- - -Mr. BELIN. Commission Exhibit 626 or 142. - -Mr. DAY. On the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository, and -I noticed from their wrapping bench there was paper and tape of a -similar--the tape--as of the same width as this. I took the bag over -and tried it, and I noticed that the tape was the same width as on the -bag. - -Mr. BELIN. Did it appear to have the same color? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do? - -Mr. DAY. Sir? - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. DAY. I directed one of the officers standing by me, I don't know -which, to get a piece of the tape and a piece of the paper from the -wrapping bench. - -Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 677, -I will ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. This is the tape and paper collected from the first floor in -the shipping department of the Texas School Book Depository on November -22, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. Does this have any identification marks on it? - -Mr. DAY. It has my name, "J. C. Day, Dallas Police Department," and -also in my writing. "Shipping Department." - -Mr. BELIN. Any other writing on there that you recognize? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; Detective Studebaker, who was with me, and in his -writing it says. "Paper sample from first floor, Texas School Book -Depository, Studebaker, 11-22-63." - -The tape also has Studebaker's writing on it, "Tape sample from first -floor." - -Mr. BELIN. I will ask you to state if you know what are Exhibits 730, -731 and 732? - -Mr. DAY. These are photographs of the wrapping bench on the first -floor, Texas School Book Depository, taken by me on April 13, 1964, -after I had talked to you when I was back in the building. I didn't -have a previous picture of this wrapping bench. - -Mr. BELIN. Does that represent the location on the first floor of -the School Book Depository Building where you got the tape sample, -Commission Exhibit 677? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; it is approximately the same. I do not think the -benches had been changed since the November shooting. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you recognize at any point on any of the exhibits the -actual tape machine that was used? - -Mr. DAY. The one that we removed this from was the north roll and tape -on the east side of the bench. - -Mr. BELIN. You are now pointing at Exhibit 730. I notice a roll of -paper underneath the bench in the center of the picture. Is that where -you got the big paper, the main paper on Commission Exhibit 677? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. To the best of my knowledge that is the roll we tore -the paper off of. - -Mr. BELIN. What about tape itself? - -Mr. DAY. The tape was from the machine immediately above that roll of -paper on top of the bench. - -Mr. BELIN. Were there other tape machines there also? - -Mr. DAY. Yes; but I didn't notice them at the time. - -Mr. BELIN. How did you get the tape from out of the machine, if you -remember? - -Mr. DAY. Just pulled the tape off and tear it out and tear it off. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there a lever at all that you used, if you remember if -there is such a lever? - -Mr. DAY. I don't remember. I don't think we used the lever. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do with Commission Exhibit 677? - -Mr. DAY. I released this, I released 677 to Vince Drain of the FBI, -11:45 p.m., November 22, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as Commission -Exhibit 733 and ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. This is the southeast corner of the sixth floor at the window -where the shooting apparently occurred. The boxes in front of the -window, to the best of our knowledge, in the position they were in when -we arrived there on November 22, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. So 733 represents a reconstruction in that sense, is that -correct? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit---- - -Mr. DAY. This, by the way, was taken on November 25, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. What about 734? - -Mr. DAY. That is another view of the same boxes shown in 733. - -Mr. BELIN. In 734 you can also see this juncture of the south and east -walls of the sixth floor where you say the bag was found; is that -correct? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I want to turn for the moment to 729. I notice that the -box on 729 appears to have a portion of it torn off and then replaced -again. Is this correct or not? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as Commission -Exhibit 649 and ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. This is a portion torn from the box shown in 729. - -Mr. BELIN. While you are holding that I'm going to hand you Commission -Exhibit 648 and ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. That is the box shown in 729 at the center of the picture. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that the box, 648, from which 649 was torn? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you relate what transpired to cause 649 to be torn -from 648? - -Mr. DAY. After I returned to the sixth floor of the Texas School -Book Depository after delivering the gun to my office, we processed -the boxes in that area, in the area of the window where the shooting -apparently occurred, with powder. This particular box was processed and -a palmprint, a legible palmprint, developed on the northwest corner of -the box, on the top of the box as it was sitting on the floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you developed this print? - -Mr. DAY. I placed a piece of transparent tape, ordinary Scotch tape, -which we use for fingerprint work, over the developed palmprint. - -Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do? - -Mr. DAY. I tore the cardboard from the box that contained the palmprint. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. DAY. The box was left in its position, but the palmprint was taken -by me to the identification bureau. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you make any identification of it? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. Later that night when I had a chance to get -palmprints from Lee Harvey Oswald. I made a comparison with the -palmprint off of the box, your 729, and determined that the palmprint -on the box was made by the right palm of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you make any identification on Exhibit 649 which would -indicate that this is the palmprint you took? - -Mr. DAY. It has in my writing, "From top of box Oswald apparently sat -on to fire gun. Lieut. J. C. Day," and it is marked "right palm of -Oswald. Lieut. J. C. Day." - -There is also an arrow indicating north and where the palmprint was -found. It further has Detective Studebaker's name on it, and he also -wrote on there, "From top of box subject sat on." - -Mr. BELIN. Now, when was that placed on that exhibit, that writing of -yours, when was it placed on there? - -Mr. DAY. It was placed on there November 22, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. Can you identify by any way Commission Exhibit 648? - -Mr. DAY. This has my name "J. C. Day" written on it. It also has "R. L. -Studebaker" written on it. It has written in the corner in my writing, -"Southwest corner box 18 inches from wall." - -Mr. BELIN. I also see the name "W. H. Shelley" written on there. Do you -know when this was put on? - -Mr. DAY. W. H. Shelley is the assistant manager apparently of the Texas -School Book Depository. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he put it on at the time you found the box? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know when that was placed on there? - -Mr. DAY. That was placed there November 26. The box was not removed, -just the cardboard was removed on November 22--excuse me, November 25 I -should say that he put his name on there. I returned to the School Book -Depository on November 25 and collected this box. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did he say southwest on that or southeast? - -Mr. BELIN. I believe he said that he has here that the southwest corner -of the box is 18 inches from the wall. - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; that being the south wall. - -Mr. McCLOY. This is the southwest corner of the box he is talking about? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. That is what is written on Commission Exhibit 648. - -Mr. McCLOY. It depends on where that box was. It is kind of a removable -direction, isn't it? - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission -Exhibit 641, Exhibit. 653, and Exhibit 654, and ask you to state if you -know what these are. I will start with 641 first. - -Mr. DAY. 641 is a box found in front of the window, Texas School Book -Depository. Apparently the gun had rested across this. This is the top -box now of two that were sitting in the window. - -Mr. McCLOY. At the sixth floor window from which the shots are alleged -to have been fired? - -Mr. DAY. Where the gun was fired from. - -Mr. BELIN. Does this box appear on Commission Exhibit 715? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir; this does not show. - -Mr. BELIN. In other words, what you are saying is that the box, 641, is -not the box which is shown in the window on 715? - -Mr. DAY. That is correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Taking a look now at the box No. 653, I want to ask you to -state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. This is the box that is shown on 715, that is in the window. - -Mr. BELIN. Does it have any means of identification? - -Mr. DAY. It has my name "J. C. Day," also "R. L. Studebaker" marked -"Box B." - -Mr. BELIN. I see you have a notation about the top, which appears to be -reading on the side of the box. What does that mean? - -Mr. DAY. That is the top of the box as it was sitting in the window -sill, on the window sill. - -Mr. BELIN. I see you have an arrow with the arrow pointing to the north. - -Placing the box on the table here with the arrow pointing in a north -direction, it would appear the box is lying on its side, is that -correct? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that the way you found it in the window before you moved -it? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that the way it is shown on 715? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any kind of a mark to show what the contents of -this box were? - -Mr. DAY. It says "Ten Rolling Readers." - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything, any other identification, that you found -on it? Did you dust this for prints? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you find any? - -Mr. DAY. Not with the powder. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you find any in any way? - -Mr. DAY. No; I didn't find any. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know if anyone else found any? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you put your initials on the boxes, 653 and 641, if -you know? - -Mr. DAY. I am not certain whether it was the 22d or 25th when we -collected the boxes. - -Mr. BELIN. I notice your initials are also on 641, is that correct? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Again you have marked the side of the box as being the top, -is that correct? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Putting your initials on there? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; and my name is on it "J. C. Day." - -Mr. BELIN. If you put your initials on or your name on on November 25, -how do you know this was the same box that was there when you first -came? - -Mr. DAY. There was a scar on the top of or the top side of this box -that was sitting there. I noticed that at the time. I thought the -recoil of the gun had caused that. I later decided that was in the -wrong direction. It was not the recoil of the gun but I did notice this -scar on the box. - -Mr. BELIN. When you came back on the 25th where did you find this box, -641? - -Mr. DAY. They were still in the area of the window but had been moved -from their original position. - -Mr. BELIN. Does that scar appear on the box in 733? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I see there was one box in the window which you have -reconstructed as being box 653, am I correct on that? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And then there is a box which is stacked on top of another -box, the upper box of that two-box stack is 641, is that correct? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And there is a scar on top of that. Is this the same one -that you referred to at the top of 641? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know when you initialed box No. 653? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir; I don't know exactly which day it was. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have any independent recollection of this being the -same box you saw in the window? - -Mr. DAY. I beg pardon? - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have any independent recollection of this being the -same box that you saw in the window, if you don't remember when you -initialed it? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir; except that it was still there in that area and had -been dusted on the 25th. We did dust it on the 22d. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: When you were dusting it were there -remains of the dust on there? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When you put your initials on on the 25th were the dust -remains still there? - -Mr. DAY. The dust was still there; yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. On all of these boxes, 641 and 653, and now handing you 654, -was there dust on 654 also? - -Mr. DAY. All boxes had dust on them when I collected them. - -Mr. BELIN. Were boxes Nos. 641, 653, and 654 open or closed? - -Mr. DAY. They were closed and had books in them. - -Mr. BELIN. Did they have tape around them? - -Mr. DAY. They were sealed with tape. - -Mr. BELIN. Turning to 664, do you see your name as a means of -identification on this box? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; "J. C. Day." It also has the name "R. L. Studebaker" -on it. - -Mr. BELIN. I see there is an arrow pointing north here, is that correct? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And the box appears with--it appears to have "top" written -on the box as it stands on one end, is that correct? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; that is the top side as it was standing on the floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, again turning to Exhibit 733, do you see where box 654 -was then? - -Mr. DAY. It would be the bottom box of the center stack. There are two -boxes. - -Mr. BELIN. There are two boxes, and the upper box is marked "Ten -Rolling Readers," and 654 would be below that one? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. That is a reconstructed photo, to the best of your -knowledge, as to where the boxes were? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Is there any indication on any of these boxes which you -could identify as indicating on which box the rifle rested? - -Mr. DAY. I beg your pardon? - -Mr. McCLOY. Is there any indication on any of these boxes that could -tell you where the rifle rested? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. When it was fired? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir; I couldn't find a thing there. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission -Exhibit 735 and 736 and ask you to state if you know what these are. - -Mr. DAY. 735 is the right palm of Lee Harvey Oswald's palmprint. 736 is -the left palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know when these prints were made? - -Mr. DAY. They were made November 22, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. Does your name appear on these? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. With the permission of Commissioner McCloy, would it be -possible to have Xerox copies substituted for these so that the -original can go back with Lieutenant Day? - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. As I understand it, these are the last original copies you -have of palmprints of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. DAY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you there when these prints were made? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir. The prints that were made in my presence, which I -compared with these, I can state are his, were sent to the FBI. - -Mr. BELIN. Would these be the same prints as shown on Commission -Exhibit 628 and 629? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir. They are still not the originals. They had my name -on it when I saw them sign it. But I did compare these with ones I saw -made personally of Oswald, and I can say this is his left hand, his -left palm, and his right palm. - -Mr. BELIN. So you are saying 735 and 736 are his right and left palms. -What about 628 and 629? - -Mr. DAY. 629 is the right palm, and 628 is the left palm of Lee Harvey -Oswald. - -Mr. BELIN. What about 627, can you state what that is, if you know? - -Mr. DAY. That is a set of fingerprints, standard set of fingerprints, -of Lee Harvey Oswald taken by Detective J. B. Hicks on November 22, -1963. - -Mr. BELIN. You have just examined these with your magnifying glass, is -that correct? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And you so identify these? - -Mr. DAY. They are the fingerprints of Lee Harvey Oswald, whose -palmprints appear in 735 and 736. - -Mr. BELIN. Lieutenant Day, did you ever try to make any ballistic -identification of the bullet slug that was removed from the residence -of General Walker? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir. I don't do that work. We have a laboratory in Dallas -that we ask to do that. Wait a minute now, you said identification? My -answer should be no, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I will ask you this. Have you ever seen Commission Exhibit -573 before, if you know? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us what 573 is? - -Mr. DAY. This slug was gotten from the home of former General Edwin -Walker, 4011 Turtle Creek, April 10, 1963, by Detective B. G. Brown, -one of the officers under my supervision. He brought this in and -released it to me. - -Mr. BELIN. You are reading now from a report that is in your -possession, is that correct? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. Those are the official records of my office. - -Mr. BELIN. Was that prepared under your supervision? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. In the regular course of your duties at the Dallas Police -Department? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. The slug has my name "Day" scratched in it. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not any ballistic identification was -made of this slug with regard to any rifle it may have been fired from? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir. I released that to the FBI agent B. D. Odum on -December 2, 1963, at 4:10 p.m. - -Mr. BELIN. Has that ever been back in your possession since that time? - -Mr. DAY. Not since that time. - -Mr. BELIN. Prior to that time do you know whether or not any positive -ballistic identifications were made of Exhibit 573 with regard to the -rifle from which it might have been fired? - -Mr. DAY. It had not been compared with any rifle, to the best of my -knowledge. - -Mr. BELIN. At this point we would like to offer and introduce in -evidence Commission Exhibits Nos. 715 through 734, inclusive. - -Mr. McCLOY. They have all heretofore been identified? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, they have; and I think 715 is the first one, and if -there have been any prior to 715 I would offer to introduce that also. - -Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibits Nos. 715 through 734 inclusive, were received in -evidence.) - -Mr. BELIN. I am also going to introduce 735 and 736. These are the -Xerox copies of those cards, of those palmprint cards, that I believe -you had, sir. Am I correct in that, and according to my records, the -next number for introduction of exhibits is 737. - -Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibits Nos. 735 and 736 were received in evidence.) - -Mr. BELIN. I am now going to hand you No. 737 and ask you to state if -you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. This is the rifle found on the sixth floor of the -Texas School Book Depository November 22, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. Who took that picture? - -Mr. DAY. I took it myself. - -Mr. BELIN. When? - -Mr. DAY. About 9 or 9:30 p.m., November 22, on the fourth floor of the -City Hall in my office. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to now hand you what has been marked as 738 and -ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. This is a photograph of most of the evidence that -was returned to the FBI the second time on November 26, 1963. It was -released to Agent Vince Drain at 2 p.m., November 26. - -Mr. BELIN. Who took that picture, if you know? - -Mr. DAY. I beg pardon? - -Mr. BELIN. Who took that picture? - -Mr. DAY. I took this picture. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to now hand you what has been marked as -Commission Exhibit 739 and ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; this is a view of the Texas School Book Depository -made from about a half block south looking north on Houston Street on -November 22, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, returning for the moment to Exhibit 738, do you -recognize any items in there as items that you turned over to the FBI? - -Mr. DAY. All of these items were released to the FBI. - -Mr. BELIN. Which ones are there now? - -Mr. DAY. There is a shirt. - -Mr. BELIN. This is the same shirt that has been marked Commission -Exhibit 150? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. What else? - -Mr. DAY. A revolver. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you put any initials on the revolver or not? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir; I don't think I did. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. What else? - -Mr. DAY. A blanket. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that the blanket that has been marked "Commission Exhibit -140" here? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. What else? - -Mr. DAY. A live round. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that the live round that you earlier identified as what -Captain Fritz ejected from the rifle? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What else? - -Mr. DAY. Two spent hulls, and an envelope in which they were in. - -Mr. BELIN. Those are the ones you have earlier identified, is that -Correct? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What else? - -Mr. DAY. One piece of cardboard with a palmprint on it that has been -identified as that of Oswald. - -Mr. BELIN. That is the piece of cardboard that you tore off this -cardboard box, the cardboard box being Commission Exhibit No. 648, is -that correct? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What else? - -Mr. DAY. Two--correction, one .38-caliber slug, and a button off a -policeman's uniform. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that slug, do you know where that came from? - -Mr. DAY. I didn't personally collect that. It was in the stuff that was -given to Vince Drain. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Anything else, if you know? - -Mr. DAY. There is a plastic box, I don't remember what was in it, a -slip of paper reading "Dallas County Hospital District," laying with -the box, and there is an envelope laying with the live round with -information stating that it is a live round from the gun found on the -sixth floor of the Texas Book Depository. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you refer to the paper sack? - -Mr. DAY. Yes; I didn't mention that. Also one homemade paper bag -previously identified as the bag found in the southeast corner of the -sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. McCLOY. What is the revolver that you previously mentioned, where -did it come from? - -Mr. DAY. I understand that was the one that was in Oswald's possession, -reportedly the one used to shoot the officer. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't have any independent knowledge of that, do you? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir; I did not collect that. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked "Commission -Exhibit 740" and ask you to state if you know what that is. Do you have -any further comments, by the way, of 738? - -Mr. DAY. I can tell from this what it is. - -Mr. BELIN. You are looking toward your own inventory and you are -pointing to a picture of Exhibit 738? - -Mr. DAY. Yes; it was a bullet fragment taken from the body of John -Connally at Parkland General Hospital in Dallas. The slip was in -connection with a fragment, the hospital slip previously mentioned. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else on 738? - -Mr. DAY. That is all that is in the picture. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. What about exhibit---- - -Mr. DAY. There was one other article released with this, an envelope -containing the three negatives I made of the prints on the side of the -magazine housing of that 6.5 rifle, which I did not definitely identify -as belonging to Oswald. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else on 738? - -Mr. DAY. That is all, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 740? - -Mr. DAY. 740 is a photograph looking northeast toward the Texas School -Book Depository. This shows Elm Street at the point at which the -President was shot. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know when that was taken? - -Mr. DAY. November 22, 1963, in the afternoon sometime after 3 o'clock. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. I am going to hand you Exhibit 741 and ask you to -state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. 741 is a photograph of the lunchroom area on the second floor -of the Texas School Book Depository taken November 25, 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know what direction the camera is facing? - -Mr. DAY. The camera is facing west looking toward the west door of the -lunchroom. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. I'm going to hand you what has been marked -"Exhibit 742" and ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. That is the outside of the door shown in the picture on 741, -which door---- - -Mr. BELIN. There appear to be two doors shown on 741. One door that is -open and one door that is closed with the window in it. - -Mr. DAY. This is outside of the door that is closed with the window -in it. This picture looks east, made on the second floor of the Texas -School Book Depository from a position near the stairway. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be the stairway coming---- - -Mr. DAY. Stairway coming down from the third floor. - -Mr. BELIN. I will hand you what has been marked "743" and ask you to -state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. 743 is a photograph of the stairway leading to the third floor -from the second floor of the southwest corner of the Texas School Book -Depository. Make a correction on that previous picture 742. I stated -that was taken from a position of the stairway leading to the third -floor. It should read taken from a position of the stairway leading to -the first floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any other evidence pertaining to fingerprints or -palmprints that you have not discussed? - -Mr. DAY. I can't think of any at the present time. I believe that -pretty well covers my participation in this investigation. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any other evidence that you can think of pertaining -to the rifle that you have not discussed that you can think of at this -time? - -Mr. DAY. Not that I can think of. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any other thing that you did pertaining to the -investigation of the assassination of the President that you can think -of at this time? - -Mr. DAY. Under my direction they made paraffin casts of the hand of Lee -Harvey Oswald in Captain Fritz' office. - -Mr. BELIN. This was done under your direction? - -Mr. DAY. I directed them to make it, and also paraffin casts or just of -a piece of paraffin on the left side of the face to see if there were -any nitrates there. - -Mr. BELIN. On the left side or right side of the face? - -Mr. DAY. Right side. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know what the results of the paraffin tests were? - -Mr. DAY. The test on the face was negative. - -Mr. BELIN. Had you ever done a paraffin test on a face before? - -Mr. DAY. No; actually--had it not been for the particular type of case -and this particular situation here--we would not have at this time. It -was just something that was done to actually keep from someone saying -later on, "Why didn't you do it?" - -Actually, in my experience there, shooting a rifle with a telescopic -sight there would be no chance for nitrates to get way back or on the -side of the face from a rifle. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, the chamber, the nature of the chamber of the rifle, -would that have anything to do with that? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. In what way? - -Mr. DAY. A rifle such as that one we are talking about here from the -sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, in my opinion, would -not throw nitrates back to where a man's face was when he is looking -through a telescopic sight. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, when you ran these tests you had understood that the -man, Oswald, had fired a pistol, too, hadn't he? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you expect to have any positive tests from a pistol on -the cheek? - -Mr. DAY. I would expect more with a revolver with an open cylinder than -I would from a rifle. Actually, for most practical purposes, I would -not be surprised if there would be no nitrates from a man firing a -rifle. - -Mr. BELIN. What about on the hands? - -Mr. DAY. Even on the hands. It is possible, but it is more likely with -a revolver where you have a revolving cylinder and an opening between -the cylinder and the actual barrel where the nitrates can come out. - -Mr. McCLOY. That was the type of pistol that was used to kill Tippit, -wasn't it? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did the paraffin show up nitrate? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; nitrates were present on the cast made of Oswald's -hands. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else, are there any other comments you -have with regard to the paraffin test, sir? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You are showing me your report of paraffin findings. Is this -the same report that was sent into the FBI, if you know? - -Mr. DAY. I think they were sent a report. This is the report submitted -by the laboratory at Dallas who first processed this paraffin. Later -on the FBI did come and want this paraffin, and it was turned over to -them, also the can from which this was made. I don't know what purpose -they wanted it for. - -Mr. BELIN. I believe you mentioned that you took a measurement of the -area in which the long paper bag was found to show how big an area that -was with relation to the easternmost pair of windows on the east side -of the building, and the--on the south side of the building rather--and -on the southeast corner juncture of the south wall to the east wall. - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Handing you what has been marked as "Commission -Exhibit 734"--you are using another exhibit there---- - -Mr. DAY. It is the same, it would be the same. I just had my -measurements on there, was all. - -Mr. BELIN. 729, is this the one that you have here? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -How far would the distance be between the east wall and the east side -of that easternmost pipe? - -Mr. DAY. Two feet, seven inches. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have what the measurements were between the south -wall and that box that you tore the piece off of to make the palmprint -takeoff? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; it would be 19-1/2 inches. Actually the box was -marked "18 inches." If you will note there are six boards. I thought -they were 3 inches wide. On doublechecking I found they were 3-1/4 -inches wide which would make a 1-1/2 inch difference in six boards. - -Mr. BELIN. And I believe you have already said that the bag was folded -over when it was found, is that correct? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, on the picture, 734, this is the reconstruction of the -boxes in the window, is that correct? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Does that represent, to the best of your recollection, the -way the boxes were at the time you first came upon the crime scene, if -you know? - -Mr. DAY. It is an approximate location. I may be a little too far from -the west to what they actually were when we got there on November 22. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information you can think of, any facts -that you can think of, whether I have asked you or not, that you feel -are in any way relevant to the area of inquiry, the assassination of -the President, the murder of Officer Tippit, or anything else? - -Mr. DAY. I can't think of anything right now. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as "Commission Exhibit -744," and ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. 744 is a picture of Officer M. N. McDonald, and shows -the scratch on the side of his face made somewhere close to 2 -p.m., November 22, 1963, by Detective J. M. Craft--correction, I -believe he is a patrolman, Patrolman J. M. Craft, who is assigned -to identification, to the identification bureau, and did the actual -snapping of the shutter. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this picture taken under your supervision? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked "Commission -Exhibit 745" and ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. DAY. 745 is a photograph of Don Ray Ables, Dallas Police Department -jail clerk, who was on duty, and placed in the showup November--I don't -know whether it was the 23d or 22d, one of those 2 days, along with Lee -Harvey Oswald at the Dallas Police Department showup room. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know about how tall Don Ray Ables is, if you know? - -Mr. DAY. He is about 5'6", or 7", but I would have to get his accurate -measurements to get it. In other words, he is not a large man. - -Mr. McCLOY. There were more than he in the showup with Oswald, which -Oswald was in, that is, he wasn't the only one in the showup besides -Oswald? - -Mr. DAY. I don't think so, but I don't know, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. You weren't present at the showup? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. At this time we would offer and introduce into evidence -Exhibits 736 through 745. - -Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. - -(The items marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 736 through 745 for -identification were received in evidence.) - -Mr. BELIN. Any other questions that you have, Mr. McCloy? - -Mr. McCLOY. On the crime scene, that is, on the sixth floor, did you -notice any chicken bones or chicken remnants of a chicken sandwich or -lunch or the whereabouts, if you did see them? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; there was a sack of some chicken bones and a bottle -brought into the identification bureau. I think I still have that sack -and bottle down there. The chicken bones, I finally threw them away -that laid around there. - -In my talking to the men who were working on that floor, November 25, -they stated, one of them stated, he had eaten lunch over there. - -Mr. McCLOY. Someone other than Oswald? - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; so I discarded it, or disconnected it with being -with Oswald. Incidentally, Oswald's fingerprints were not on the -bottle. I checked that. - -Mr. McCLOY. They were not on the bottle? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you go on the fifth floor and make any investigation on -the fifth floor? - -Mr. DAY. I was there but I didn't have any photographs taken or do much -investigating there. - -My work was mostly confined to the sixth, second and the first floors. - -Mr. McCLOY. I noticed that in the picture you took of the sixth floor -window, the picture that had the hulls on the floor, there seemed to be -a break in the floor between--against the wall where the wood did not -reach the brick of the wall. Was that hole, so far as you recall, all -the way through from the sixth floor to the fifth floor? - -Mr. DAY. No, sir; I checked that. A hull could not go down through -there. You could see the bottom of it. There was no hull in there. - -Mr. McCLOY. I'm not saying there was any hull in there. I was wondering -whether that aperture, whatever it was, not related to the hulls, -whether that went all the way through to the fifth floor. - -Mr. DAY. No, sir; I don't think so. I think it was tight there and -nothing---- - -Mr. McCLOY. The colored man testified he could see air from the fifth -floor to the sixth floor. - -Mr. DAY. I may be wrong, but I did make a search in that area for the -hulls and determined none could be in there. As far as from the bottom -looking up, I couldn't say. - -Mr. McCLOY. I don't think I can think of anything else to ask you, -anything else I would like to ask you, Lieutenant Day. - -Mr. BELIN. Lieutenant Day, we want to thank you for your splendid -cooperation here. We appreciate your coming up and staying over and -staying late tonight, and we know it has taken time on your part. - -Mr. DAY. I hope I have helped you and not confused you. - -Mr. McCLOY. You indicated one thing, Lieutenant, that you didn't have -quite the proper equipment here tonight to make the comparisons that -you might want to make. - -Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did I hear that you were going to stay over and go to the -FBI laboratory in the morning? - -Mr. DAY. Well, they are trying to make reservations to leave tonight -if they can get them. I do not know whether they can. On that print -it would take me some work to do that before I could eliminate all -possibility of it not being his print. I feel it is his from what I -have seen of it, but before I can take the witness stand and say that -is his, I would want to do some more work on it. What it would take, I -don't know. I understand that it was identified. What process they used -I don't know. - -Mr. McCLOY. By someone else, by some other agency? - -Mr. DAY. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. Can you restate again for the record what you can -positively identify in terms of fingerprints or palmprints and -Oswald's---- - -Mr. DAY. The palmprint on the box he apparently sat on I can definitely -say it is his without being in fear of any error. The other, I think it -is his, but I couldn't say definitely on a witness stand. - -Mr. McCLOY. By the other, you mean the other palmprint? - -Mr. DAY. The palmprint and that tracer print aside the trigger housing -or the magazine housing. - -Mr. McCLOY. Thank you very much. - -(Whereupon, at 9:15 p.m. the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Thursday, April 23, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF LYNDAL L. SHANEYFELT, ROBERT INMAN BOUCK, ROBERT CARSWELL, -AND WINSTON G. LAWSON - -The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on April 23, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman -Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. -Dulles, members. - -Also present were Melvin Aron Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Samuel A. -Stern, assistant counsel; Howard P. Willens, assistant counsel; Charles -Murray, observer; and Dean Robert G. Storey, special counsel to the -attorney general of Texas. - - -TESTIMONY OF LYNDAL L. SHANEYFELT - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give in this case, -this hearing, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I do. - -Mr. McCLOY. You know why we are here? It is to ascertain all the facts -and circumstances which seem to be relevant to the assassination of the -President and the death of his alleged assassin, and there are certain -identifications which I believe you can be helpful to us with, and with -that I will just ask you to respond to the questions. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Shaneyfelt, can you state your full name, please? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes, Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt. - -(At this point, the Chief Justice entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give us your position? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I am a special agent with the Federal Bureau of -Investigation, assigned to the FBI laboratory. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What unit? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I am in the document section of the FBI Laboratory here -in Washington. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does your work in that section customarily include -photographic work as well as written documents? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is true. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you briefly give us your qualifications as an -expert in photography, Mr. Shaneyfelt? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have been in photographic work since about 1937. -I started working with the FBI in 1940. Three years prior to this I had -worked as a newspaper photographer in Hastings, Nebr., and on entering -the FBI I worked in the photographic section of the FBI for about 8 -years before I became a special agent. I became an agent in 1951, spent -a year in Detroit as a field investigator, and then was returned to the -laboratory and assigned as a document examiner. I was also assigned -cases involving photographic examinations, because of my extensive -experience in photography. - -I have a B.C.S. degree from Southeastern University here in Washington. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you estimate the number of photographic examinations -you have made? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. This would be just an estimate. I would estimate -approximately 100, between 100 and 300. I couldn't come any closer than -that. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you testified in court on the subject? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may this witness testify as an expert in -the area of photography? - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes; I think he is qualified. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Shaneyfelt, I now hand you two small photographs -which have been already marked "Commission Exhibit 133," and I ask you -whether you are familiar with these photographs? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I am. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, for the record, these photographs appear to show -Lee Harvey Oswald in two different poses, and they were found by police -officers, following his apprehension, at one of the premises at which -he resided. - -Mr. Chairman, I would like your permission to mark these photographs -"A" and "B" for easy identification; they have already been marked -"Commission Exhibit 133." - -Again for the record, there are two poses represented in these -photographs. In one the rifle is held--a rifle is held--in front of the -body, and in one it is held somewhat above the torso. I am marking the -rifle--that photograph in which the weapon is held in front of the -body--as A, and the photograph in which the weapon is held somewhat -above the body as B. - -Mr. McCLOY. When you say above the body, you mean above and to the -right side of the body as Oswald faces the viewer? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, sir. - -Mr. Shaneyfelt, have you prepared reproductions of Exhibit 133A to show -the weapon pictured therein in further detail? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show us those reproductions? Did you prepare -these yourself, Mr. Shaneyfelt? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I did. They were prepared by rephotographing -Commission Exhibit 133A, to preparing a negative from which I made a -variety of prints of different densities to bring out the detail of the -rifle. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say "of different densities," could you explain -that in lay terms? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; to try to get greater variation between the light -and dark areas of the photograph, or to bring out or enhance the -contrast so that the detail is more apparent. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like these photographs admitted as -Commission Exhibit 746. - -Mr. McCLOY. You want to put them all into one exhibit? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; and I will subnumber them A, B, C, D, E. - -Mr. McCLOY. Have you identified these sufficiently? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; I have. - -Mr. McCLOY. I wonder whether you have? - -Mr. EISENBERG. The witness has identified these as subphotographs of -133A. There are five photographs, is that correct, Mr. Shaneyfelt? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. McCLOY. Different dimensions? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Two photographs being what size? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Two 11 by 14 inches, and three 8 by 10 inches. - -(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. McCLOY. Very well, they will be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 746 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Let the record show I have marked these "Exhibits 746 A, -B, C, D, E", the two larger photographs being marked "A" and "B," and -three smaller photographs being marked "C," "D," and "E." - -Mr. Shaneyfelt, I now hand you a rifle, Commission Exhibit 139, -which for the record I will state is the rifle which was used in the -assassination, and I ask you whether you are familiar with this weapon? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you prepared a photograph of this weapon, Mr. -Shaneyfelt, showing it in approximately the same manner as it is shown -in Commission Exhibit 133A, but without it being held by anyone? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you prepare this photograph? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I prepared it myself. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that is an 8- by 10-inch photograph, is it? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as 747? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 747, and -received into evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you prepared a simulated photograph showing this -weapon, Commission Exhibit 139, held in approximately the same pose as -it appears to be held in Commission Exhibit 133A? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I have; yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that is an 8- by 10-inch photograph? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which you prepared yourself? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I prepared the photograph myself, having the rifle -held in approximately the same position as in Exhibit 133A, and I -attempted to duplicate the lighting of the photograph, Exhibit 133A. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 748, and -was received into evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Where was this photograph prepared, Mr. Shaneyfelt? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. This was prepared in the FBI laboratory. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was this inside or outside? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Outside. - -Mr. EISENBERG. On the roof? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. On the roof of the Justice Building. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I see the head of the individual in the photograph is -blacked out. Can you explain the reason for that? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I blanked out the head because it was one of the -employees of the FBI, and I felt it was desirable to blank out the head -since it was not pertinent. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Shaneyfelt, based upon Exhibit 133A, upon your -reproductions of Exhibit 133A, consisting of the Exhibits Nos. 746 A -through E; and upon your photograph of the rifle, Exhibit 747, and your -simulation of 133A, Exhibit 748--have you formed an opinion concerning -whether Exhibit 139, the rifle used in the assassination, is the same -or similar to the rifle pictured in Exhibit 133A? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give us that opinion? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I compared the actual rifle with the photograph, -Exhibit 133A, and with the photographs that I prepared from Exhibit -133A, as well as the other simulated photograph and the photograph -of the rifle, attempting to establish whether or not it could be -determined whether it was or was not the same. - -I found it to be the same general configuration. All appearances were -the same. I found no differences. I did not find any really specific -peculiarities on which I could base a positive identification to the -exclusion of all other rifles of the same general configuration. - -I did find one notch in the stock at this point that appears very -faintly in the photograph, but it is not sufficient to warrant positive -identification. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say "this point," you are pointing to the right -side of the weapon, to a point approximately 14 to 15 inches in front -of the bolt when the bolt is turned down--is that correct? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Shaneyfelt, looking at this Commission Exhibit 139, -the weapon, I see that the stock is curved downward, about 8 inches--at -a point approximately 8 inches--from the butt of the weapon, and that -it then recurves upward at an angle of approximately 10 deg. to the plane -of the forepart of the butt--is that correct? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I will hand you Commission Exhibits 746 A through -E, and I will ask you to select from those exhibits the photograph -which best brings out the various details of the weapon. - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I believe that the contour of the stock is best shown -in Commission Exhibit 746E. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, could you take---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Is that better shown than in the larger pictures? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I believe it is; yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you take a marking pencil, Mr. Shaneyfelt, and -circle the point at which the curve and recurve appear to show, and -mark that circle with an A? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You circled a point which is marked predominantly by a -highlight, is that correct? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, without tampering with the original, 133A, I wonder -whether you could show to the Commissioners the highlight as it appears -on the original photograph? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; the highlight is right at that point there, the -bright spot at that point. - -Mr. McCLOY. I think I might say for the record, I don't believe you -identified the place where these photographs were purported to be sited. - -As I understand it these are from the Neely residence? - -Mr. EISENBERG. No, sir; I think they were located in the Paine garage. -The Neely residence---- - -Mr. McCLOY. The photographs were located in the Paine garage. I am -talking about the site of the photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, sir; I think we will show that with independent -testimony. - -Mr. McCLOY. In the garden of the Neely residence. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Shaneyfelt, I will hand you Exhibits 747 and -748, which are the pictures of the rifle and the simulated picture -approximating 133A, and I will ask you to again mark with a circle -designated A the curve and recurve of the stock of 139. - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Here. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you compare the manner in which the curve and -recurve marked "A" appears on these photographs with the manner in -which it appears on 746, the photograph you have--746E, the photograph -you circled earlier? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. At a point approximately 6 to 8 inches from the -base of the stock, where the stock curves downward, there is a nob -formed, and on that nob there is a strong highlight which appears in -photograph 746E, and in the simulated photograph, and the photograph of -the rifle. The actual stock curves slightly around that highlight, and -then recurves back up toward the bolt, and this is visible in Exhibit -746E, and in the simulated photographs 748 and 747. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So again in 747 and 748 the recurve appears primarily as -a highlight; is that correct? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. That is the most outstanding point. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I also observe, Mr. Shaneyfelt, the telescopic sight on -Exhibit 139, the weapon. Referring again to 746E, your reproduction, -which shows somewhat greater detail because of the contrast, could you -circle the telescopic sight appearing in that picture, and mark it "B"? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Right here. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I wonder whether you could again show to the -Commissioners the telescopic sight on the original 133A? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. Along that area, just at the base of the hand. -It runs right across from this area to the base of the hand below the -rifle and above the bolt. - -Mr. McCLOY. It is quite apparent, isn't it? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; it is quite apparent. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Shaneyfelt, again referring to 746E, could you -circle the end of the weapon, the end of the barrel of the weapon, and -mark it "C"? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Here. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, towards the upper right of the point you have -marked as the end of the weapon there is a little mark of some -type--right near the point which you have marked "C." - -Is that mark part of the end of the weapon? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; I interpret that mark as a shadow on the building, -a slight shadow on the building. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Just to make that clear, could you draw an arrow within -your circle pointing to the end of the weapon? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have done it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Shaneyfelt, I hand you a negative which, for -the record, appears to be a negative of 133B, which is the photograph -showing the weapon held slightly above and to the right, and I ask you -if you are familiar with this negative? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes, I am. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Shaneyfelt, have you examined this negative to -determine whether the picture 133B is in fact a print made directly or -indirectly from the negative? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. I have examined it for that purpose -and determined that Exhibit 133B is a print from this negative. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this negative introduced into evidence as -Exhibit 749? - -Mr. McCLOY. Have you any other identification as to this negative as to -where it was found? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; for the record only, nothing that this witness can -testify to---- - -Mr. McCLOY. State for the record where it was found. - -Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, this was also found at one of Oswald's -residences, I believe the Paine address at which Marina was staying at -the time Oswald was apprehended. - -Mr. McCLOY. This will be proved? - -Mr. EISENBERG. This will be proved separately. - -The CHAIRMAN. Will this negative deteriorate as time goes on? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. No. - -The CHAIRMAN. It will not? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. It should not. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Normally this depends on the processing, how well it -has been processed and how well it has been fixed and washed. If it -were going to deteriorate it would have begun by now. - -The CHAIRMAN. I see--and it has not yet begun? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. It has not begun. There is no indication that there -will be any extensive deterioration. - -Representative FORD. Have we shown any place in the record that that -print or a negative came from a camera---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is what I was going to proceed to do, sir. - -Mr. Chairman, may we have this admitted as Exhibit 749? - -Mr. McCLOY. Admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 749 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. I asked you before whether you could say whether this -negative, which is now 749, had been used directly or indirectly to -make the print 133B? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you say whether it had been used either directly -or indirectly? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. It is my opinion that it was used directly to make the -print. However, I cannot specifically eliminate the possibility of an -internegative or the possibility of this photograph having been copied, -a negative made by copying a photograph similar to this from which this -print was made. - -I think this is highly unlikely, because if this were the result of a -copied negative, there would normally be evidence that I could detect, -such as a loss of detail and imperfections that show up due to this -added process. - -Although a very expertly done rephotographing and reprinting cannot -positively be eliminated, I am reasonably sure it was made directly -from the negative. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But at any rate if it was not made directly it was -made indirectly? The only process that could have intervened was a -rephotographing of the photograph and making a negative and then a new -print? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Shaneyfelt, I now hand you an Imperial Reflex Duo -Lens camera. Let me state for the record, that this camera was turned -over to the FBI by Robert Oswald, the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald, on -February 24, 1964. - -Robert Oswald identified the camera as having belonged to Lee Oswald -and stated that he, Robert, had obtained it from the Paine residence in -December 1963, several weeks after the assassination. - -On February 25, 1964, Marina was given the camera and she identified it -as the one which she had used to take the pictures 133A and 133B. - -Mr. Shaneyfelt, are you familiar with this camera? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I am. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as 750? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 750 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. When did you receive the camera, Mr. Shaneyfelt? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. It was--I can't pinpoint the date exactly, I don't -have the notes here for that. It was, I would say, the latter part of -February, not too long after it had been recovered on February 24. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was it in working order when you received it? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; it had been slightly damaged. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you explain that? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. In order to be able to make a photograph with the -camera, I had to make slight repairs to the shutter lever, which had -been bent. I straightened it and cleaned the lens in order to remove -the dirt which had accumulated. These were the only things that had to -be done before it was usable to make pictures with it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you clean the inside or the outside of the lens? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. The outside of the lens. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the shutter lever you are referring to is the little -red-tipped lever protruding at the outside of the camera? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What did you do with it exactly? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I bent it out straight. It was bent over. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could a layman have performed these repairs? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; he could have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How would you characterize this camera in terms of -expense, Mr. Shaneyfelt? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. It is a relatively inexpensive camera. It is what we -refer to as a fixed-focus box-type camera. A simple box-type camera -with a simple one-shutter speed and no focusing ability, fixed focus. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you know where the camera was made? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. It was made in the United States. At the base of the -camera it has the name Imperial Reflex, made in U.S.A., on the front, -below the lens. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Shaneyfelt, did you compare the negative, Exhibit -749, with the camera, Exhibit 750, to determine whether the negative -had been taken in that camera to the exclusion of all other cameras? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What conclusion did you come to? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I reached the conclusion that the negative, which is -Commission Exhibit 749, was exposed in the camera, Commission Exhibit -750, and no other camera. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain how you were able to arrive at such a -conclusion? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I can. - -In order to make an examination of this type, it is necessary to make a -negative with the camera, using the camera, because the examination is -based on the aperture at the back of the camera, at the film plane. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you prepared a photograph of that aperture at the -film plane? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have an enlarged photograph of that aperture, -that I made so that it would better show the back of the camera, with -the back removed to show the film plane opening or aperture. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take this photograph of the back of the camera -yourself, Mr. Shaneyfelt? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. It was made under my supervision. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 751? - -Mr, McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 751 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is the enlargement here, by the way? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Approximately two and a half times. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, having reference to the chart, Mr. Shaneyfelt, -could you explain it in a little more detail, the basis of your -examination? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; the basis of the examination was a close -microscopic study of the negative made in the camera to study the -shadowgraph that is made of the edge of the aperture. - -As the film is placed across the aperture of the camera, and the -shutter is opened, light comes through and exposes the film only in the -opening within the edges. Where the film is out over the edges of the -aperture it is not exposed, and your result is an exposed negative with -a clear edge, and on the negative then, the edges of that exposure of -the photograph, are actually shadowgraphs of the edges of the aperture. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you circle or mark with arrows the edges you are -referring to as "these edges" or "this edge," that is, the edges of the -aperture opening at the plane of the film? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. - -Representative FORD. This would be true in every picture taken? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That would be true of every picture taken and is true -of virtually every camera--every roll-film type camera. It would not -be true of a press-type camera where the film is loaded into separate -holders; then the holder becomes the thing that will leave identifying -characteristics. - -On any 35 mm. or Leica camera, roll-film camera, box cameras of all -types, having an arrangement, where the film goes across an opening -leaving an exposed area at the aperture and unexposed area around the -aperture, this would be true. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say "virtually every camera" you are including -every type of camera with this type of aperture? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I would include every camera with this type of -film arrangement and aperture. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You held up a negative before---- - -The CHAIRMAN. Just a moment, gentlemen, you will excuse me, I must go -over to the Court now. You will be able to proceed the rest of the day, -will you? - -Fine. I will be back as soon as I finish. - -(At this point the Chief Justice left the hearing room.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Shaneyfelt, you were holding up a negative which -appears to be a negative of a simulated photograph you showed us -before, Exhibit 748. Is it such a negative? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. It is true. That is the negative from which that -exhibit was made. The negative was exposed in the camera which is -marked Commission Exhibit No. 750. I exposed it myself. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this negative admitted as 752? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. That is the negative from which that -exhibit was made? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 752 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. McCLOY. And you took that picture? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I took that picture myself. - -Representative FORD. Is this a recognized technique or procedure used -in or among experts such as yourself? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. We have used this technique of camera -identification with film on several occasions. It doesn't arise too -often. As it normally arises, the majority of examinations that I -have made in this connection are the identification of a camera that -has been stolen and the serial number removed so that it can't be -identified, the owner cannot identify it. We then take the owner's film -and the camera that has been recovered and make this examination and -determine that this is in fact the camera that the owner's film was -exposed in, thereby showing ownership. - -So, it is a recognized technique, we do it regularly. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you have performed such examinations yourself, Mr. -Shaneyfelt? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Shaneyfelt, what is the basis of your statement, the -theoretical basis of your statement, that every camera with this type -of back aperture arrangement is unique in the characteristics of the -shadowgraph it makes on the negative? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. It is because of the minute variations that even two -cameras from the same mold will have. Additional handwork on cameras, -or filing the edges where a little bit of plastic or a little bit of -metal stays on, make individual characteristics apart from those that -would be general characteristics on all of them from the same mold. - -In addition, as the film moves across the camera and it is used for -a considerable length of time, dirt and debris tend to accumulate -a little--or if the aperture is painted, little lumps in the paint -will make little bumps along that edge that would make that then -individually different from every other camera. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is this similar then to toolmark identification? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Very similar, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you prepared a chart on which you have illustrated -some of the more prominent points which led you to your identification, -Mr. Shaneyfelt? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, this chart shows on the left a copy of your -simulated picture number 748 and on the right a copy of the picture -133B, is that correct? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you prepared this chart yourself? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 753, Mr. Chairman? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 753 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Before we get to this chart, I wonder whether you could -take the negative itself, that is, Exhibit 749, and place it over the -camera, Exhibit 750, so that the Commissioners can see how it runs -across these--across the sides of the aperture you have been discussing? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. I might state that this film at the time it is -put in the camera is in a long strip, and at the time of processing -it is cut apart into separate negatives. There is an unexposed area -between each exposure, and they are cut apart for printing and storage -and returning. So that then this would be in a long strip of film--the -camera being held in this position, which is the normal position for -taking a photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that is upright? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Upright--will give you an image which on the film -is upside down because of the light reflecting from the face, going -through the lens and going down here; so this negative, Commission -Exhibit 749, would have been on the film plane in this manner at the -time the exposure was made. - -The blackened area that you see would be the area that was exposed, and -because of the aperture frame, the clear area around the edge was not -exposed. - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes. - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. And this edge between the dark and the light then -becomes the shadowgraph of this aperture of the camera. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Your Commission Exhibit 753 illustrates that -shadowgraph, or actually shows that shadowgraph, Mr. Shaneyfelt? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct, the charts were printed to show the -entire negative and reproduce the shadowgraphs of Commission Exhibit -749 and Commission Exhibit 752. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you refer now to that chart? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes, sir. Referring to the chart then, the examination -was made by comparing the edges, not only for size but general contour, -and I have marked with numbers from 1 through 8 some of the more -outstanding points of identification. - -The eight points are not all that accounted for the identification. The -identification is based on the fact that not only those eight points -but every place else is the same on both negatives. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the contours are also the same? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. The contours are the same, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So you have taken these eight points for demonstrative -purposes? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Rather than as being actually what you rested your -identification on, is that correct? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Point No. 1 which is in the lower right hand corner, as you view the -picture of the chart---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Lower left-hand corner? - -Mr. EISENBERG. As you view it, lower left hand? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. As you view it, lower left hand of both of the charts, -shows a notch that makes the shadowgraph other than a straight line. - -Representative FORD. This is very clear. - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. This appears the same in both charts. Point No. 2 is -another similar notch except that it is a double one, and the little -notches are smaller. This again is the same in both charts. - -Point No. 3 is more of an indentation, a slight curvature where the -edge curves out a little and back in toward the corner. It is not as -pronounced a dent. - -Point No. 4 is only visible by looking at the chart in this direction -because---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. This direction being from left to right as you look? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Left to right, because although this line looks -straight it actually dips down and back up again. - -Mr. EISENBERG. "This line" is the line at the top of that exhibit? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. The line of the shadowgraph at the top of the -photograph. - -Representative FORD. That is point No. 4? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Four. Point No. 5 again is a slight dent or bulge in -the edge and shows in both charts. - -No. 6 is a more shallow and wide indentation along the edge. - -Point No. 7 is again the same type of a characteristic as the others, -but a little different shape. - -Point No. 8 is a little fragment of bakelite or debris extending out -from the edge, that shows in both of the charts in the same manner. In -addition the corner at eight tends to curve in towards the picture as -it approaches the corner, there tends to be a curvature in and not a -nice neat square corner. - -In addition, between points 2 and 3 there is a very definite S-curve -where the bakelite from which the camera is made apparently warped -slightly making this S-curve, and this is apparent in both charts. -Again, more apparent as you hold the photograph flat and look down the -line. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, the margins of the shadowgraph in the right-hand -side of the chart, which is based upon 133B, look somewhat larger than -the margins on the left-hand side. - -Could you explain that? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That was merely a matter of masking during the printing -process. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is to say it is the interior which is crucial -rather than the width of the margin? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. McCLOY. This mark along the bottom appears in one. How do you -explain that? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. McCloy is pointing to a mark along the right-hand -side, a white mark along the bottom of the shadowgraph. - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; that is the cut edge of the negative, where this -particular negative has been cut very close to the shadowgraph line and -this then appears as a white line along the chart and represents the -actual edge of the negative. - -The other three edges of that negative and all four edges of the other -negative do not show in the photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was this chart actually prepared by use of exhibits--by -the negatives, Exhibits 749 and 752, Mr. Shaneyfelt? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I made the charts directly from those negatives. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Approximately what is the enlargement here? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Approximately eight times. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, can you explain why--eight times? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Six to eight, it is in that area. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why the enlargement of 133B is haloed -with a white, light halo? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; the reason for that was to print the photograph -so that it would be clearly a photograph of the negative and show the -individual in the picture but not print too dark around the outside -edges to give the best possible reproduction of the shadowgraph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Captain Fritz of the Dallas Police has stated that -in his interrogations, Oswald--Lee Harvey Oswald--stated, in effect, -that while the face in Exhibit 133A was his face, the rest of the -picture was not of him--this is, that it was a composite of some type. - -Have you examined 133A and 133B to determine whether either or both are -composite pictures? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And have you--can you give us your conclusion on that -question? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; it is my opinion that they are not composites. -Again with very, very minor reservation, because I cannot entirely -eliminate an extremely expert composite. I have examined many composite -photographs, and there is always an inconsistency, either in lighting -of the portion that is added, or the configuration indicating a -different lens used for the part that was added to the original -photograph, things many times that you can't point to and say this is -a characteristic, or that is a characteristic, but they have definite -variations that are not consistent throughout the picture. - -I found no such characteristics in this picture. - -In addition, with a composite it is always necessary to make a print -that you then make a pasteup of. In this instance paste the face in, -and rephotograph it, and then retouch out the area where the head was -cut out, which would leave a characteristic that would be retouched out -on the negative and then that would be printed. - -Normally, this retouching can be seen under magnification in the -resulting composite--points can be seen where the edge of the head had -been added and it hadn't been entirely retouched out. - -This can nearly always be detected under magnification. I found no such -characteristics in these pictures. - -Representative FORD. Did you use the technique of magnification in your -analysis? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. - -In addition, in this instance regarding Commission Exhibit 133B which -I have just stated, I have identified as being photographed or exposed -in the camera which is Exhibit 750, for this to be a composite, they -would have had to make a picture of the background with an individual -standing there, and then substitute the face, and retouch it and then -possibly rephotograph it and retouch that negative, and make a print, -and then photograph it with this camera, which is Commission Exhibit -750, in order to have this negative which we have identified with the -camera, and is Commission Exhibit 749. - -This to me is beyond reasonable doubt, it just doesn't seem that it -would be at all possible, in this particular photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Shaneyfelt, did you attempt to determine whether -133A had been photographed through the camera, Commission Exhibit 750? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; I did not, because in order to make an examination -to determine whether a photograph is made with a particular camera, you -must have the negative or you must have a print of the negative that -shows that shadowgraph area, and Commission Exhibit 133A does not show -that shadowgraph area. - -Therefore, no comparison could be made. It is not possible. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does the shadowgraph area show on 133B? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; it does not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Why does it not show on either 133 A or B? - -M. SHANEYFELT. Because they are printed in a normal processing -procedure, where this area is normally blocked out to give a nice white -border and make the picture a little more artistic. In the printing -process, masks are placed over the area, or the shadowgraph, in order -to cover it up, and the resulting print is a photograph with a nice -white border. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that you have to have the negative to make the kind -of identification you have made for us earlier? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Looking at 133B, are the observable characteristics of -the weapon pictured in this picture--shown in this picture--similar to -the observable characteristics of Exhibit 139, the weapon used in the -assassination? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; they are less apparent in this photograph because -it is a photograph of the bottom, or the base of the rifle, the bottom -of the rifle along the trigger-guard area, but it does show this bottom -of the rifle in that photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Looking at 133A and 133B, do the lighting conditions -seem to have been similar? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. They are consistent, entirely consistent, in both -photographs, the lighting on the face is the same, the lighting on the -background is identical, there appear to be no major differences or no -significant differences. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I would like to draw your attention for a moment -to this sling on Exhibit 139, and I would like to state for the record -that this sling is not thought to be actually a rifle sling, but some -type of homemade sling, that is, the firearms expert has so testified. - -Does this sling appear in either Commission Exhibits 133A or 133B? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. It is my opinion that it does not. Commission Exhibit -133A has such a small portion of the sling showing that it--you cannot -establish that it is or is not the same sling that is presently on the -rifle. - -However, Commission Exhibit 133B does show the sling, since it shows -the bottom of the rifle, and I find it to be different from the sling -that is presently on the rifle. It has the appearance of being a piece -of rope that is tied at both ends, rather than a leather sling, and it -is my opinion that it is a different sling than is presently on the -rifle. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Just again a homemade simulated sling, is that it? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. It has that appearance, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You testified that you have a much smaller view of -the sling, or what passes for a sling, on 133A than on 133B. Is the -sling or simulated sling on 133A, that portion of it which is visible, -consistent with the sling on 133B? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; it is entirely consistent. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Also looks like a piece of rope, is that it? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; it has that appearance. - -Representative FORD. Can you tell from a negative about when it was, -the picture was taken, or can you develop any time from that? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. It is possible on some negatives. In this instance -it is not. On some negatives there is a numbering system along the -edge that is coded by the company that indicates manufacturing date, -approximate manufacturing date, and it is usually by year, so that you -could state that a film was coded by the company in 1947, therefore, it -could not have been used prior to 1947. - -This is about as far as one can go in the establishment of time that -a picture was taken from the actual film. This cannot be done in this -instance. - -Representative FORD. I notice on some prints which are now developed -commercially that they have a date on the edge. - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Is this a universal practice now? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; this varies with the different processors. It is -used by the large companies. I believe Eastman Kodak uses it. Your -larger processing companies use it, but your smaller, maybe one-man -shop or small photographic shop will probably not use it. It is at the -discretion of the shop actually. - -Representative FORD. Can you tell from a print which has been developed -which processing plant processed that print? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Not without some specific stamp of the processing -company on it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I think we should add here for the record that the sling -which is presently on the rifle is, as any other sling, a removable -sling, and not one that is fixed into the rifle. - -Mr. McCLOY. It seems to me that this band here in Exhibit 746 is a, -might very well be a reproduction of this, this lighter side of this -rather enlarged leather part of the sling. - -It seems to be just about the same length. - -Representative FORD. That is, what is on the, rifle. - -Mr. McCLOY. Which is on the rifle. I wonder, and here it is again in -Commission Exhibit 133A--133A has that--of which it is an enlargement. -Isn't it possible that is a reproduction of that leather sling? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. It could be possible. - -Mr. McCLOY. This is not a string by any means. - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is true; it is broader. I get the impression -by this shadow at the top, closest to the rifle, just below the -bolt, there is a faint shadow there that would indicate a double -string or rope, and it then becomes narrower as you are looking at -the edge of two ropes lying together. On the Exhibit 133B I get the -same interpretation of a double-rope effect, partly because of the -knot-tying and so on, and you see the shadow between the strands -slightly in some areas, and, as I stated before, I cannot, because of -the limited amount of that showing, say that it is not the sling. I -find it more consistent with the sling showing in Exhibit 133B, which -is very definitely---- - -Mr. McCLOY. A bowknot--133B seems to have a knot at the swivels. - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. Which doesn't appear on the rifle now. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Shaneyfelt, I now hand you the cover of Life -magazine for February 21, 1964, which consists of a photograph quite -similar to Exhibit 133A, and I ask you whether you are familiar with -this photographic cover? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I am. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this introduced, Mr. Chairman, as 754? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 754 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you compared Exhibit 754 with Commission Exhibit -133A? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is your conclusion on the basis of that comparison? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. It is my opinion that it is the same picture reproduced -on the front of Life magazine, which is Commission Exhibit 754. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does Commission Exhibit 754 appear to have been -retouched in any significant way? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; it does. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show the Commission that retouching? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I could. I might state that it has been my -experience in the field of reproduction of photographs for publication, -in which a halftone screen is made from which the photograph is then -printed, it is normal procedure, and was at the time I worked for a -newspaper, to retouch the photograph to intensify highlights, take out -undesirable shadows, generally enhance the picture by retouching the -photograph so that when it is then made into a halftone strip pattern -for reproduction by printing, this retouching, if it is done well, -does not show as retouching but appears to be a part of the original -photograph. - -This retouching is done either by brush or by airbrush, which is -a device for spraying gray or shades of gray or black, onto the -photograph. I point to the area between the legs of the individual on -Life magazine. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you circle that and mark it A on Exhibit 754? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Suppose I use arrows. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Oh, sure. - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. On Exhibit 746B, there is a shadow between the -individual's legs. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you mark that A? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I will mark that A. In that same area of the photograph -on Exhibit 754, that dark shadow has been removed in this area, I will -mark that A. - -Mr. EISENBERG. It appears there is a continuous fence slat there, where -none appears---- - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; the shadow has been removed. Lower down in that -same area of the legs, near the calf of the leg, again, and I will mark -that B, the shadow---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. B on 754? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. 754; has been softened but not entirely eliminated. -That same area is marked B on Commission Exhibit 746B. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Has the weapon been retouched? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. The weapon has been retouched by placing a highlight -along the stock almost up to the end of the bolt. The highlight is -brushed right across the top of the highlight that we have previously -discussed at the nob or the curvature of the stock where it goes down -and then back up to the curve. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you put an arrow pointing to the brushed-in -highlight and mark it C? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you put an arrow pointing to the original highlight -and mark it D; both on 754 and 746B? You had earlier marked with a -circle 746E at point A, showing the highlight as it appears in 133A? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Of course, this highlight does not appear in that same -area of Commission Exhibit 746B. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You mean the highlight marked C on 754? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Looking at the photograph, at the weapon, the stock -appears to be straight, which does not correspond to the Exhibit -139. As I understand your testimony, this is simply a retouching; -this effect of a straight stock is simply achieved by retouching the -photograph or doctoring it? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is my opinion. I would refer to it as retouching -rather than doctoring, because what has been done has been retouched, -and doctoring infers an attempt to disguise. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I didn't mean to imply such a thing--but retouched, then? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the actual highlight showing the curve and recurve -still appears as point D? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you circle--do you see a telescopic sight on the -Life cover of 754? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I do. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you draw an arrow marking that E? Would it have -been possible to retouch the photograph so that the telescopic sight -does not appear? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Oh, yes; that is possible. With a halftone process--it -is possible to retouch, and then the halftone process destroys the -retouching characteristics and makes it appear as a normal photograph -rather than a retouched photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And again, based upon your newspaper experience and -your experience as a photographer generally, could you state the -possible purpose of such retouching? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. The purpose of the retouching in reproduction work -is merely to enhance the detail so that it will not be lost in the -engraving process. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say "enhance the detail," why would a stock be -retouched so as not only to enhance the detail, but actually to change -the apparent configuration? Could you conceive of any reason for that? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. I think the reason that the stock was retouched -straight in the photograph on Life magazine, and my interpretation -would be that the individual retouching it does not have a familiarity -with rifles and did not realize there was curvature there, and in doing -it just made a straight-line highlight without even considering whether -that curved or not. There was curvature in that area which is not -readily apparent--it is quite indistinct--and I think it was just made -without realizing that there was curvature there. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is, the individual might have thought he was -actually enhancing detail rather than putting in detail which was not -present in the original? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is there anything else you would like to point out in -this photograph, Exhibit 754? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. There is other retouching at the shoulder, to the left -of the photograph as we view it; that area has had some retouching of -the highlights. Along the barrel of the gun, or the stock of the gun -above the hand, there is retouching, a little highlight enhancement -there. These are all generally consistent with the type of retouching -that we have previously discussed and I have previously pointed out. - -Representative FORD. I am not clear why they would retouch, from a -photographic point of view. - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. They retouch because in the halftone process there is -a loss of detail, and had they not retouched this photograph, had they -not put the highlight along the rifle stock, then you would only have -seen a black area. They were afraid you would only see a black area and -you wouldn't get the definition here of the rifle. You lose the detail, -and you would lose the view of the rifle. You wouldn't see the rifle -there because this line would be lost. The same way along here. This -one very definitely, had they not retouched it, it would have blended -in and been a continuous tone of dark gray all across there. - -Representative FORD. That is--up here--that is, above the hand on the -stock? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you said a highlight "along the rifle stock," you -actually meant on top, above the rifle stock? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. The upper edge. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is it the upper edge, or is it a place that does not -correspond to the rifle stock? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. It is an edge along the rifle stock that corresponds. I -am speaking now of the highlight above the hand. - -Mr. EISENBERG. No; you said before, in describing the highlight which -you can see, you said they drew a highlight "along" the rifle--the -rifle stock. Actually it was drawn, as I understand it, considerably -above the edge of the actual rifle stock? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; that is true. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you used this technique yourself? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have done retouching of photographs for -halftones; yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you said before that this retouching is done by -airbrush or brush, what medium is used in the brush or airbrush to -achieve the effect? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. It is a water-soluble pigment, and it is available in -varying shades of from white to black; it is available in different -shades of gray tones, so that you could actually match the gray tone -of the picture--since in these instances we are dealing entirely with -gray, shades of gray--and you select a gray that is not too prominent -that would give you a highlight that would look normal. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that the negative is painted, so to speak? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. The actual photograph is painted. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The photograph is painted. Now, would there be any -conceivable reason for eliminating in a retouching the telescopic sight? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. The only reason again would be to enhance the detail. -I cannot determine from Commission Exhibit 754 whether there was -retouching around the stock. There are indications that there is some -retouching--I mean around the telescopic sight. It appears to me they -did do some retouching around the telescopic sight which we have marked -as point E on Commission Exhibit 754. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Without specific reference to 754, might an individual -without experience in rifles have thought that the detail corresponding -to the telescopic sight was extraneous detail, and blocked it out? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; it could be done. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you have anything? - -Representative FORD. No further questions. - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be because I am, and I am sure it is, because of -my ignorance in regard to this composition of photographs, but the -negative of which we have a copy is that from which this photograph was -taken; isn't that right? [Referring to Exhibit 133A.] - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. We do not have the negative of this photograph. - -Mr. McCLOY. You have the negative of this? [Referring to Exhibit 133B] - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. We have the negative of 133B. - -Mr. McCLOY. You have the negative of 133B. That negative in itself -shows no doctoring or composition at all? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. It shows absolutely no doctoring or composition. - -Mr. McCLOY. So that the only composition that could have been made -would have been in this process which you have described of picture on -picture and negative and then photographing? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. And then finally rephotographing with this camera. - -Mr. McCLOY. Rephotographing with this camera, this very camera? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct, and this then, to me, becomes in the -realm of the impossible. - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes. There is nothing in Exhibit 754 that, to you, -insinuates any sinister type of touching up? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. This is entirely innocent retouching, -completely normal operation for a newspaper cut or a magazine -reproduction. - -Mr. McCLOY. I think I have no other questions. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Just two other questions. Is there anything in the -negative of 133B--that is, Commission Exhibit 749--to indicate whether -it was developed commercially or not commercially? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; I cannot determine that from the negative. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And finally, I hand you a page from that same issue of -Life, the issue of February 21, 1964, page 80, which has a photograph -similar to the cover photograph, and I ask you whether this photograph -appearing on page 80 appears to you to be the same as the photograph -used on the cover? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; it appears to be the same photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does the retouching appear to be the same in both? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. The retouching is consistent; yes. It appears to be -slightly clearer in the photograph on page 80; the highlight along the -stock is sharper and more crisp and in more detail. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Again you say "highlight along the stock." - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Along the stock. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You mean the highlight introduced by the retoucher? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. And the scope appears to be much clearer in the -photograph on page 80 than the photograph on the front cover, which is -Exhibit 754, and is much clearer than is apparent in the photograph -133A. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you account for that? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. My only explanation would be retouching, from -retouching around the scope. The primary reason for the additional -clarity between the entire photograph, without specific reference to -the scope, the clarity that I mentioned in the entire photograph on -page 80 as compared with the cover is, I believe, basically the fact -that the cover is so enlarged. There is a tendency on big enlargements -to separate the detail out by enlargement so it appears not as clear, -so a smaller picture will sometimes look clearer than one of the same -picture that has been enlarged. This would account for some of the -additional detail and more distinct sharpness in the photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May this photograph on page 80 be introduced as 755? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 755 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. One final question: Can you compare the sharpness of the -scope on Exhibit 755 with the sharpness on Exhibit 746E, one of the -reproductions you prepared? - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; there is the same difference in sharpness between -the photograph on Commission Exhibit 755, which is page 80 of Life -magazine, and the photograph which I made from the Government's Exhibit -133A, which is Commission Exhibit 746E. Again this difference in -sharpness, I believe is due to retouching in part, and in part to the -picture in Life magazine being smaller, and thereby the detail is not -spread out so much. It is a combination of retouching of the photograph -and size. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, this concludes my examination. - -Mr. McCLOY. I am further interested as you look at this rifle as -it lies on the table you can see the highlight, even without any -photograph, very clearly. The shine centers on the curvature of the -stock. It is quite interesting. - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is very apparent on Exhibit 748 also, where you -get the duplication of the lighting. This nob tends to reflect more -light. - -Mr. McCLOY. It is obvious that it is right up there as a conspicuous -highlight. I didn't realize that it was so indicative of the curve of -the stock of the rifle. - -Thank you very much indeed for your cooperation and very enlightening -and very interesting testimony. - -Mr. SHANEYFELT. Thank you. - -(Recess.) - - -TESTIMONY OF ROBERT INMAN BOUCK - -Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Bouck, you know the purpose for which you are here? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, I do. - -Mr. McCLOY. And we are very happy to have you help us to acquit -ourselves of our responsibility here in determining all of the relevant -circumstances in connection with the assassination of the President. - -I believe you are going to give us something of the routine by which -Presidents are protected? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. I will ask you to rise and hold up your right hand. - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give in this hearing will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. BOUCK. I do. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Bouck, I would like to outline first the order of -questioning I have in mind to give you a notion of how I would like to -proceed and how you might respond to particular questions. - -I would like to cover first your biographical background, then -the functions of the Protective Research Section, generally the -organization of the Section, the sources of information on which you -rely regarding potentially dangerous people, the criteria you employ -to determine when an individual might be dangerous, what you do with -the information once you receive it, and then some detail on how your -filing system is set up and operates, how do you get at data. - -Then based on all that background information, the preparations that -were actually made for the President's trip to Texas. - -I will begin by asking you to state your name, age and address. - -Mr. BOUCK. My name is Robert Inman Bouck. I am 49 years of age. I live -at 411 Norwood Drive, Falls Church, Va. - -Mr. STERN. What is your education, Mr. Bouck, at the college level? - -Mr. BOUCK. I have a B.S. degree in police administration. - -Mr. STERN. From what college? - -Mr. BOUCK. From Michigan State College. - -Mr. STERN. And that was awarded when? - -Mr. BOUCK. 1939. - -Mr. STERN. What is your experience in the Secret Service--when did you -join the Service? - -Mr. BOUCK. I came to the Service in 1939 upon leaving college. From -1939 to 1945 I worked on protective assignments for the President and -the presidential family and other people in the Washington area. - -From 1945 until 1951 I worked in Chief's office on supervising and -reorganizing various activities in the Chief's office. - -In 1951 I was loaned to the Treasury Department as coordinator, I -organized schools and directed them in the enforcement area until 1957, -and in 1957 was assigned to the present job I now have of Special -Agent-in-Charge, Protective Research. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Bouck, I show you this document of six pages which has -been marked Commission Exhibit No. 760. - -Can you identify that for me? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. This is a memorandum of December 3 that I prepared, -also a second memorandum of December 3 that I prepared. - -Mr. STERN. And these were prepared in response to instructions to you? - -Mr. BOUCK. In response to instructions from my headquarter's office, -yes. - -Mr. STERN. With the help of these memoranda I would like to touch -briefly upon the functions of the Protective Research Section that you -head--for the moment those functions other than with respect to persons -of concern as a possible danger to the President. - -If you will turn to the last page of this exhibit, there are a list of -other duties of PRS, and would you explain briefly those and give some -idea of the magnitude of the task involved? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -The manufacture and control of White House passes are the admittance -passes to the White House issued to the press, employees and others -who have occasion to come to the White House or the Executive Office -Building that houses White House staff. This is some four to five -thousand, fluctuating in volume. - -The procurement and evaluation of character investigations and -clearances for some categories of employees, these are the employees -that passes are issued to and these are the clearances that we require. - -Some of them we investigate ourselves, many of them are investigated -by other agencies, and we review and evaluate the results, the number -being roughly the same as the number of passholders in this category. - -The procurement of national agency file checks and determination of -admittance restrictions on a large number of tradesmen, contract -employees and so forth who service the White House--these are non-White -House employees. These are people who come to fix typewriters, clean -rugs and that sort of thing. - -Mr. STERN. Approximately how many people are involved in that category, -Mr. Bouck. - -Mr. BOUCK. This, we have a file of about 20,000 of these people, about -4,000 are active at any one time, and several hundred a month turn over -in this. - -Item No. 4, control of security processing of mail and gifts received -at the White House, this is done by postal and White House employees -under X-rays and security equipment provided by us under our guidance -and we take over whenever any dangerous situation is indicated. This -varies at Christmas time, when there are many hundreds of items -reviewed; normally a few a day. - -No. 5, handling and disposition of suspicious packages or objects that -may contain bombs or infernal devices; we have a bomb transporting -truck, we have bomb analyzing equipment, we have a location and a place -where we can dismantle bombs, and this, I am happy to say, we have had -many scares but we have not had the real thing. We do this frequently -as a precaution on things that we cannot analyze under the X-ray, but -we have not actually had a bomb at the White House. - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask where is the White House mail handled, right in -the White House itself? - -Mr. BOUCK. No; it is handled in the Executive Office Building which is -across the street from the White House. - -Mr. DULLES. The old State, War and Navy Building? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, sir. - -No. 6, evaluation of safety and control of disposition of all foods, -beverages and similar consumable items received by the President or -White House as gifts. - -We do not, even though these are handled by White House and post office -employees, we pass judgment as to whether any consumable item may be -used and under what conditions it may be used or whether it must be -destroyed. This particular function we do entirely. - -And again at Christmas time and birthdays it would be very high, many -hundreds of items. Other times a few a day. - -No. 7, control and investigation of---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Can I interrupt there, have you had any poisoned foods? - -Mr. BOUCK. We think not at the White House, but this we are always -watchful for. We have some food that we think sanitationwise is very -bad, it smells bad, it looked bad, some has spoiled and some have been -prepared under very bad conditions but we know of no actual case of -intended poison. We have had some where poisons may have generated -because spoilage has set in. - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes. You don't have a royal taster, do you? (Laughter.) - -Mr. BOUCK. No, I am afraid we do not. - -Control investigations on personnel and establishments that are supply -sources for food, beverages, drugs and so forth, these are the places -that the White House buys those supplies. We find out from the White -House where they would like to buy, we check on the employees of these -establishments, we check on the procedures by which it is handled, and -we check on the sources of their food, where they get the raw materials. - -This is an investigative process and a control process. - -Representative FORD. How often do you go through this process? - -Mr. BOUCK. The process is continuous in that the control, for instance -a White House policeman goes and picks up, when the food is picked -up. But the reinvestigation is every 6 months. We take a new look at -each of these establishments every 6 months to see if any change has -occurred. In between times we have arrangements with Public Health to -make frequent health inspections, much more frequent than an ordinary -establishment would be inspected. - -Representative FORD. If there is a change of an employee at one of -these shops or stores, are you notified? - -Mr. BOUCK. We are supposed to be notified. Sometimes we aren't aware -until we make the next check, although our White House policeman and -our purchasing people do keep watch for this and usually we have -established that only a small percentage of the people who handle White -House orders, perhaps the manager and one clerk. It works quite well. - -No. 8, the performance of technical and electronic inspections to -protect against covert listening devices. - -This is something that has been done for a great many years, the volume -has gotten quite great in recent years, and we do this regularly at -the White House and for the people close to the President, we do it -regularly when he has stopover points on trips. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you ever call the FBI in on this or do you have your own -staffs to handle this detection of listening devices? - -Mr. BOUCK. We have our own staff but we frequently use people of other -agencies, including the FBI where they have specialties or are able to -perform something better than we could. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you consider there is any duplication there, I mean of -facilities in government? - -Mr. BOUCK. No; I think not. This really requires bodies, and if there -is---- - -Mr. DULLES. And skills? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes; and if, once in a while a special skill is required -that we do not possess then we turn to another agency to help us. - -No. 9, determination of feasibility of application, establishment of -specifications for procurement, and assistance in maintaining operation -of a wide variety of electronic and technical protective aids. These -are alarms, both for hazards, intrusion, and all sorts of dangers where -a mechanical or electronic device can augment personal services. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I just ask on that, do you have arrangements, say, -with the FBI, CIA and others to keep abreast of the art, as it were? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. I have in mind that time when we discovered the Russians -had developed a new device and applied it in the Embassy in Moscow, -you may recall which was quite novel, when they put in a hollow cavity -inside the shield of the Great Seal of the United States, and then they -could beam on that and they could listen to conversations in the room. -That type of thing, you would be following that up through the FBI or -through the CIA? - -Mr. BOUCK. Very much so, yes. - -We have rather low resources in those areas so the other agencies in -the areas of research and development and hardware help us continuously -and very well. - -Mr. STERN. Now these, Mr. Bouck, as I understand it, are the functions -of PRS which it has in addition to its main responsibility, and would -you describe that just briefly and we will get to that in a minute. - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, the other responsibility that is not listed here, is -the responsibility of attempting to detect persons who might intend -harm to the President, and to control those persons or take such -corrective measures as we can take securitywise on them. - -Representative FORD. I am not sure I understand that. - -Mr. BOUCK. This is an effort to detect people who might intend to harm -the President, people who make threats against the President, people -who do things that indicate they may intend to harm him, and the -various sort of things we do to see that they do not accomplish that, -to prevent them from accomplishing them. - -Mr. DULLES. Does your particular office maintain the central files for -your agency? - -Mr. BOUCK. For this function? - -Mr. DULLES. For this function. - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. I mean if the FBI sent in to the Secret Service a name or -a description of a particular man, or a particular area that would be -filed in your office? - -Mr. BOUCK. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you file that alphabetically, by location or how do you -develop those files? - -Mr. BOUCK. The information in its file jackets is filed numerically -but it is indexed alphabetically and by location as well as by certain -other characteristics that may help us find it. - -Mr. McCLOY. To come back to this matter of bugging again, do you feel -that you are thoroughly well equipped, which is a repetition perhaps -of what Mr. Dulles asked, Mr. Dulles' question, do you have an expert -staff that know this business and that keep up to date with the -developments in the area, and that can constantly keep your equipment -in shape? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes; I think so. I think we, our contacts with the -intelligence community in this area are very excellent. Our people are -excellent. I think our big problem has been one of enough resources. - -Mr. McCLOY. How many bodies have you got in this field? - -Mr. BOUCK. I have three bodies devoted entirely to it, myself and my -assistant have also had years of experience, and we devote part-time to -this, which makes approximately four and a half full time bodies. - -Mr. STERN. This might be a good opportunity, Mr. McCloy, to introduce -this document, marked Commission Exhibit No. 761. - -Do you recognize that? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did you prepare it. - -Mr. BOUCK. I prepared it. - -Mr. STERN. And what is it? - -Mr. BOUCK. It is a chart showing the staffing of the Protective -Research Section as of the time of Dallas. - -Mr. STERN. And the category you were just explaining to Mr. McCloy is -the last one? - -Mr. BOUCK. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you protect from this point of view anyone other than -the President? Do you cover, say, the Vice President's offices in the -Capitol? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. You do that, too? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. As far as safes are concerned and as far as listening -devices are concerned? - -Mr. BOUCK. Not safes. - -Mr. DULLES. Not safes? - -Mr. BOUCK. That has not been something that they have desired us to do. -But insofar as---- - -Mr. DULLES. Why shouldn't you do that, I wonder, where he keeps his -secret papers? You mean you don't---- - -Mr. BOUCK. That has not been something that has been determined as -our responsibility. I believe other security officers have been given -that responsibility, and we certainly, of course, help when we find -something in that category, but we have not been asked at any of those -levels to take care of safes. - -Mr. DULLES. But you do take care of listening devices? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. And for anybody else other than the Vice President in -addition to the White House and the President? - -Mr. BOUCK. The White House, the President, the Vice President, the -close members of the Presidential staff, and the Secretary of the -Treasury. - -Mr. DULLES. Well, would that involve the homes, for example, of the -close members of the President's staff? - -Mr. BOUCK. The very high members, yes, not all, but the very high -members. I think we do about six or seven homes of such people. The -rest is office and working areas. - -Mr. McCLOY. I have some question, I may say, that you have got enough -people to do this from what I know of the art. This is quite a -technical business now. - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, I know. - -Mr. McCLOY. And the means of counteracting it and so forth, and the -constant surveillance that you have to employ, but you are satisfied -you are well equipped and have got sufficient people to do it? - -Mr. BOUCK. As I mentioned earlier, I think we are well equipped in -know-how and in equipment. Sometimes we are pressed very hard for -enough hours to do it but our people have worked many hours overtime -and I think they have covered this quite well. - -Representative FORD. What results have you obtained? Have you found any -problems? - -Mr. BOUCK. We have not in the United States found any compromise. I am -not sure that perhaps in the open record I should go beyond that. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. McCLOY. On the record. - -Mr. STERN. From Exhibit 761, Mr. Bouck, it appears that in the area of -processing information regarding threats, potential threats to the life -of the President, there are six people presently working in addition to -yourself and your assistant, one a clerk and five special agents, as -they are designated is that correct? This is as of the time of Dallas. - -Mr. BOUCK. This is as of the time of Dallas. - -Mr. STERN. These special agents are agents who would otherwise be -involved in protective work or in the other activities of the Secret -Service, counterfeiting and the like? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Is there something about their general training that makes -them particularly desirable in this work or is it the absence of other -people that leads to the use of special agents in this work? - -Mr. BOUCK. They have been selected because of an apparent aptitude for -this work. Some of them, not all, but most of them have had many years -of background in this work that increases their competence. - -Mr. STERN. Are these men permanently assigned to this function or do -they rotate? - -Mr. BOUCK. They are susceptible to other assignment, but this -assignment is something that may continue until the Chief should decide -it was in the interest of the Service to change. It can and has gone -many years for most of us. They do not automatically rotate. - -Mr. STERN. I see. - -As of the time of Dallas the total number of people in the Protective -Research Section was 15 of which 3 were clerks, is that correct? - -Mr. BOUCK. That is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question that goes back to our earlier -discussion? At the present time the Speaker is next in line in case -anything should happen to the President. - -Do you extend any special protective facilities as far as he is -concerned? - -Mr. BOUCK. This, we are kind of in an advance area here. I do handle -mail that may come in the Protective Research area but I don't think I -am quite qualified to speak on the entire Secret Service relationship -to the Speaker, if I might seem not---- - -Mr. DULLES. What I was getting at was whether there were any special -protection afforded now in view of his, in a sense new position as -being next in line. - -Mr. McCLOY. He is in effect the Vice President. - -Mr. DULLES. He is in effect the Vice President. - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, I realize that, and I believe this gets into some -areas that involve the wishes of the Speaker, that make this question -a little bit difficult to answer, and I would say we do do what comes -to our attention that we can, but I think the Chief is probably in a -better position to indicate what degree we have gone. I am not really -overly familiar with the exact extent of that degree except as it may -apply here but we do handle in the crank area, and in the Protective -Research subject area, we do handle that material as we would handle it -for the President or Vice President when we are able to get it. - -Mr. McCLOY. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - - -TESTIMONY OF ROBERT CARSWELL - -Mr. McCLOY. Why don't I swear you, Mr. Carswell? - -Raise your right hand. - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this hearing will -be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Mr. CARSWELL. I do. - -Mr. McCLOY. You give your name for the record. - -Mr. CARSWELL. Robert Carswell. Special Assistant to the Secretary of -the Treasury. My address is 3022 Q Street NW., Washington. - -Mr. McCLOY. I think it might be well, Mr. Carswell, if you simply -indicated some of it, in response to the last question, namely, as to -whether or not there was security provided for the Speaker, who is -next in line for the Presidency, and perhaps in view of your duties -as Assistant to the Secretary of the Treasury you might have some -information upon that which would be helpful to us. - -Mr. CARSWELL. Yes. After the assassination in Dallas, the Secret -Service initiated protection of the Speaker. - -The Secretary of the Treasury spoke with the Speaker, and agents were -assigned to him. I am not qualified to say exactly the number of agents -or the duties they perform but in general they provide protection -comparable to that previously provided to the Vice President. - -Mr. DULLES. And Mr. Rowley could furnish us any detail the Commission -might want? - -Mr. CARSWELL. Yes, I would suggest that Chief Rowley is the proper -person to furnish that information. - - -TESTIMONY OF ROBERT INMAN BOUCK RESUMED - -Mr. STERN. I would like to turn now, Mr. Bouck, to the sources of -information for PRS on potentially dangerous individuals. - -Would you describe the various sources you rely upon? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. If I might refer to this exhibit that is 760 which -would be page 4 of that, the second memorandum. I believe the front -of that lists the sources. No. 1 is mail, packages, telephone calls, -received at the White House, the President's home, on trips, and so -forth, these are screened, and so forth, in PRS and evaluated and if -they meet certain prescribed criteria they are retained by PRS and -become a source of information. - -Unwelcome visitors to the White House or anywhere else the President -may be is another source. Information received---- - -Mr. DULLES. What page are you on? - -Mr. BOUCK. That is the page. - -Mr. DULLES. The first page? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, I am reading from the second paragraph or rather the -tabulation. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes, I find it. - -Mr. BOUCK. Certain information comes directly to us or is developed -by us, item 3. Item 4, reports from other Government agencies, and -officials. Item 5, reports from police departments, State and local -sources, and then we get a certain amount of phone calls, letters and -information that come directly to us from the public. - -Mr. STERN. We may get some notion of the volume of the information you -receive from this document, which is entitled "Protective Research -Cases, November 1961 through November 1963," which would be Exhibit -762. Do you recognize that, Mr. Bouck? - -Mr. BOUCK. I do, I prepared this document. - -Mr. STERN. May it be admitted? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to, previously marked as Commission Exhibit No. -762, for identification, was received in evidence.) - -Mr. STERN. Turning to the first page in the summary of Exhibit 762, Mr. -Bouck, you have taken the Protective Research cases from November 1961 -to November 1963, which involve residents of the State of Texas, and -these were how many cases? - -Mr. BOUCK. 34. - -Mr. STERN. And you have broken them down by the source of the -information in four categories which are---- - -Mr. BOUCK. Letters or phone calls; detected by the Secret Service; -reported by Federal agencies; reported by local authorities. - -Mr. STERN. Then towards the bottom of that page you have given gross -figures during the same 2-year period of the nationwide activity. Would -you state what the nationwide caseload was? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. The cases we received nationwide and did not -investigate because they didn't meet the criteria for investigation -were 7,337. The cases we received and investigated were 1,372. - -During the same period on these cases we arrested 167 people and 91 -investigations were unproductive. They did not solve the cases. - -Mr. STERN. You stated that the volume of information received has been -rising. Would you describe the total for the years 1943, 1953, and 1963? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. These do not represent cases. These represent items of -information reported. - -In 1943 we had about 7,000 such items coming to our attention; in 1953 -this had increased to somewhat over 17,000 items. By 1963 this had -increased in excess of 32,000 items. - -Mr. STERN. Each of those items is examined by one of the five Special -Agents working on this area? - -Mr. BOUCK. That is right. - -Mr. STERN. Now of the 34 Texas cases in this 2-year period---- - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question before you get on the Texas cases, -on this record, it indicates that about 6,000 cases were "received but -not investigated" it seems to me for the record it would be well to -have a little more on that as to why they weren't investigated, and so -forth. - -I suppose in a great many cases, you couldn't find who it was. It was -an anonymous letter that came in. Would that be included? - -Mr. BOUCK. Not for the cause of this, sir. I assume you are speaking of -this 7,337 cases. - -Mr. DULLES. That is right. - -Mr. BOUCK. In the bottom table. - -Mr. DULLES. Of those 1,372 were received and investigated? - -Mr. BOUCK. We receive a great deal of information on people that we do -not feel at that time intended to harm the President, but that would -bear watching. We aren't quite sure whether they will become worse in -the future, and this is---- - -Mr. DULLES. Is that among about the 6,000 cases I am referring to? - -Mr. BOUCK. The 7,000. - -Mr. DULLES. Well, there are 7,337 cases received, but not investigated. - -Mr. BOUCK. These are two separate ones. The investigated cases are in -addition. - -Mr. DULLES. This is in addition to that? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. - -Mr. BOUCK. The 7,000 cases are cases that we received, we looked at, -and felt that we will file it and see if anything more happens on this, -but it doesn't warrant investigative attention until we get something -more alarming than we have. - -Mr. DULLES. Who makes that judgment, is that made in your department? - -Mr. BOUCK. That is made in my department by one of these five agents -that are listed in this document. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you review their determination? - -Mr. BOUCK. I do not review all of them. I review a percentage of their -determinations, and I am consulted on any that are borderline or that -are difficult. - -Mr. STERN. Of the 34 Texas cases, almost half or 15 were reported by -Federal authorities. Is this typical of all information received by PRS -in the course of a year? - -Mr. BOUCK. No, this would be typical of the investigated cases but not -typical of the entire quantity of cases received. - -Mr. STERN. I see. - -Representative FORD. Are the 34 listed here included in the 7,337 or -the 1,372? - -Mr. BOUCK. 1,372. - -Mr. STERN. Do you have a judgment, Mr. Bouck, as to the proportion of -cases coming to you from other agencies, Federal agencies, State and -local agencies, of the total number of cases you have? - -Mr. BOUCK. About 90 percent of the cases generated would be other -than from agencies. The 10 percent that come from Federal and local -agencies, the majority of that come from Federal agencies. I wouldn't -know quite the percentage. But the majority of the 10 percent would be -Federal agencies. - -Mr. STERN. And predominantly from any one agency? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, predominantly from the Federal Bureau of Investigation. - -Mr. STERN. As to the 90 percent that is generated internally, as it -were, do you have an opinion as to how many of those arise because of -correspondence with the White House by the subject? - -Mr. BOUCK. The great majority of them arise from telegrams, telephone -calls, unwelcome visitors, letters to the White House. - -Mr. STERN. Unwelcome visitors at the White House? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you know how many cases within the 7,337 noted here, -which I understand is nationwide, were from Texas? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. I believe we show that in the third paragraph, 115 -cases were in Texas. - -Mr. STERN. Yes. - -Mr. BOUCK. In addition to the cases investigated. It is up in the third -paragraph from the top, right under the table, the second paragraph -under the table, sir; right where your finger is, the first line there. - -Mr. DULLES. 115? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Did the name of Lee Harvey Oswald appear in your files at -any time prior to the 22d of November 1963? - -Mr. BOUCK. No, sir; we had never heard of him in any context. - -Mr. DULLES. His name doesn't appear at all? - -Mr. BOUCK. Not as of that time. Prior to Dallas, it did not appear in -any fashion. We had no knowledge of the name. - -Mr. DULLES. You had no report from the State Department or the FBI that -covered his trip to Russia or anything of that kind? - -Mr. BOUCK. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Or of the CIA? - -Mr. BOUCK. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Bouck, what kind of information do you look for, what -are the criteria you apply, in determining whether someone is a -potential danger to the President? What do you ask other agencies, -Federal, State, and local to be on the lookout for? - -Mr. BOUCK. Our criteria is broad in general. It consists of desiring -any information that would indicate any degree of harm or potential -harm to the President, either at the present time or in the future. - -Mr. STERN. Had you ever prior to Dallas had occasion to--for any part -of your activities--list criteria that you would apply in trying to -determine whether someone is a potential danger? - -Mr. BOUCK. We had not had a formal written listing of criteria as such -except in this general form of desiring everything that might indicate -a possible source of harm to the safety of the President. We had some -internal breakdown of information for the processing of certain kinds -of material where the criteria were involved. - -Mr. STERN. I didn't mean to restrict my question to criteria for -external sources, but those you used internally as well. - -Mr. BOUCK. We had some internal, as well. - -Mr. STERN. I show you now a one-page document entitled "The following -criteria are used as guides in determining whether White House mail -is to be accepted for PRS processing," which has been marked for -identification as Commission Exhibit No. 763. Can you identify that? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, sir; this is a document that I helped draft some years -ago. It is a document I prepared for the Commission. It is a document -that was used up to and at the time of Dallas. - -Mr. STERN. For what purpose? - -Mr. BOUCK. For the purpose of screening White House mail. The White -House gives us a considerable quantity of mail, not all of which -we--it is desirable that we keep, and this is a guide to the agents in -determining what we should keep and what should go back to be answered -by the White House staff. - -Mr. STERN. This guide is not used by the White House mailroom? This is -an internal guide for your own agents? - -Mr. BOUCK. My own agents. - -Mr. STERN. What instructions does the White House mailroom have as to -mail that is to be sent to you? - -Mr. BOUCK. The White House mail has two general instructions: One, -we supply them with identification information on all existing cases -in which mail is concerned; that any further mail in those cases is -automatically referred to us. - -Their criteria are the same as our other general criteria--that in -addition to these known cases we desire letters, telegrams, or any -other document they receive that in any way indicates any one may have -possible intention of harming the President. - -Mr. STERN. Have you---- - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one question here? - -Mr. STERN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. I note that this list does not include membership in -various types of organizations, such as the, for example, the -organizations that are on the Attorney General's list. Have you ever -considered that? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes; if I might explain, sir; the letters we are talking -about are letters that are written by people, and they rarely include -that kind of information, but we do in other categories, this is for a -special purpose. This is letters only that are sent to the President -which is all this is applied to. This does not apply to other sources -of information, only the one source of letters. - -Mr. STERN. Have you had occasion, Mr. Bouck, before Dallas, to put in -writing criteria to be employed by Secret Service agents in dealing -with uninvited callers at the White House? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. I show you now a document which I have marked for -identification Commission Exhibit No. 764, one page, entitled "The -following criteria are used as guides in determining whether White -House callers should be committed for mental observation." Do you -recognize that? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did you have it prepared? - -Mr. BOUCK. I did. - -Mr. STERN. How was this employed? - -Mr. BOUCK. A great percentage of the people who come to see the -President or to the White House gates have been found to be suffering -from mental illness. This involves a determination as to whether a -legal process will take place of committing these people, and in -discussions with the Mental Commission in Washington and elsewhere, -we have found that certain criteria meet their desires in whether or -not we should legally process them. So this was prepared as a guide -to agents in trying to determine whether we could send these people -down for commitment to a mental institution or consideration by the -Commission on Mental Health. - -Mr. STERN. Under the District of Columbia commitment procedures? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes; that is right. - -Mr. STERN. Beyond these criteria for dealing with White House mail -and uninvited visitors at the White House, what instructions within -the broad framework of your criteria do you give to Treasury law -enforcement officers, including Secret Service agents, with respect to -the kind of information you are interested in receiving? - -Mr. BOUCK. We have participation in a broad program of Treasury schools -which include all of the Treasury agencies as well as participation of -certain other people in our own schools. We have a coordination setup -in Treasury on which the heads of organization levels meets regularly. - -In all of those the Secret Service jurisdiction, the Secret Service -desires and needs in the way of protection of the President have been -included many times over. - -It is a constant, one of those things that is constantly brought up -many times both in the schools and in the coordination needs of the -Secret Service needs and functions in these areas. - -Mr. STERN. Do you participate in other training programs of other law -enforcement agencies? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Will you describe that and with particular reference to this -problem? - -Mr. BOUCK. We participate both on the national level and at the field -level. Our agents in the field are instructed to accept any invitation -to teach in a police school of any level or security school, and we -have prescribed exact outlines of material they should get across. One -of the main topics being the protection topic. - -We teach in Marine schools here in Washington. We teach in some of the -State activities; a number of the different military activities. We -have had students from most of the bigger agencies of government, CIA, -State, and so forth, who have attended these portions of our training -schools. - -Mr. STERN. What requests do you make to other Federal agencies? - -Mr. BOUCK. We make this same request--that we desire any and all -information that they may come in contact with that would indicate -danger to the President. - -Mr. STERN. How are these requests communicated? - -Mr. BOUCK. They are fundamentally communicated by personal contact of -varying degrees with the FBI. We have a personal liaison contact in -which an individual, a liaison officer actually makes daily contact. - -With the other agencies, other security agencies and enforcement -agencies, we are--people on my staff have personal relationships -where we can call on the telephone and do call on the telephone very -frequently, sometimes some agencies everyday, and they in turn call us. - -Mr. STERN. What agencies do you have these liaison relationships -with--Federal agencies? - -Mr. BOUCK. We have on a commonly used basis, we have some liaison -with almost all of them but on a common using basis we have these -relationships with CIA, with the several military services, with the -Department of State. I have mentioned the FBI. - -Mr. STERN. Central Intelligence Agency? - -Mr. BOUCK. Oh, yes; very much so. They are, especially on trips very, -very helpful. - -Mr. DULLES. Foreign trips? - -Mr. BOUCK. Foreign trips, yes. - -Representative FORD. How often do your people check to see procedures -which are used by these various agencies for the determination of -whether an individual is a dangerous person? - -Mr. BOUCK. We don't do that systematically. We frequently have -such discussions but they are usually on a specific basis. Our -representative will call up and say, "We just received this -information. Would this be of interest to you." - -In these borderline cases, we have much of that, and after discussion -we decide whether it would or would not be. But outside of raising this -question as it comes in connection with business between our agencies -we do not make a practice of just simply querying them on this. We have -not done that, as I recall. - -Representative FORD. You don't lay down a particular criterion for -Agency X, Y, or Z? - -Mr. BOUCK. No. We have the one general criterion that we have advocated -for many years. I think it is quite well understood. We do not see -signs that there were any lack of knowledge that this was our job and -we wished this kind of information. - -Mr. DULLES. Have you made any study going back in history of the -various attempts that have been made, and successful and unsuccessful -attempts, that have been made against Presidents or---- - -Mr. BOUCK. Rulers. - -Mr. DULLES. Or people about to be President, or who have been President? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, yes. We have not only studied all of our own but we -have studied all of the assassinations that we could find any record of -for 2,000 years back. And strangely enough some of the thinking that -went on 2,000 years ago seems to show up in thinking of assassinations -today. - -Mr. STERN. Do you increase protection on the Ides of March? - -Mr. DULLES. Is that available? Is that--I don't know. - -Mr. BOUCK. It is available in a rather crude form. It has not been -boiled down to a concise report. - -Mr. DULLES. How voluminous is this? I should be very much interested -in thumbing through it because I have been trying to study the past -history. - -Mr. BOUCK. The rough notes on this are this high. - -Mr. DULLES. A few thousand pages? - -Mr. BOUCK. The studies didn't go beyond that. - -Mr. DULLES. By cases? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. Of course, in many of these cases it is very spotty and -these are handwritten notes. We never, outside of extracting in this in -training material and what not, we have never systematized it down to -where it is a readable document as such. - -Mr. DULLES. Have you tried to draw any conclusion out of this study as -to the type of people, the types of causes, the types of incentives? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes; we have. - -Mr. DULLES. That is in your department, is it, to do this? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes; it is. We have arrived at some conclusions from it. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. McCLOY. On the record. Your study of the prior assassinations would -take into account Czolgosz, Guiteau, what type of persons they were? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. The thing to me that seems very worthy of research is the -plotter, I mean the political plotter as against, for want of a better -word, the loner, the man who is self-motivated against the man who has -to have a group around him. How do you tell one from the other? I just -was reading last night in Loomis about Madame Corday. She was just as -much of a loner as apparently Mr. Oswald was. - -Mr. DULLES. So was Czolgosz so far as I can make out, and so was -Zangara. Zangara, I was told, planned to shoot Hoover and then he -decided that the climate of Washington wasn't very healthy in February -and March for him because he had stomach trouble, so he decided that -F.D.R. was coming to Miami and it was just as good to shoot him. You -have situations of that kind that defy it. - -Mr. BOUCK. I believe he intended to shoot the King of Italy before that -but he got a chance to migrate before he got an opportunity. - -Mr. DULLES. Zangara? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any look out for defectors as such? - -Mr. BOUCK. As such we have never been quite able to determine that that -is a valid criterion. We do not as such. - -Mr. McCLOY. You have some suspicions, now, don't you? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes; we have some suspicions now; yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. I wonder whether it would not be useful for this Commission -to have, if it could be reduced to readable form and to assist, the -conclusions of your study if you have such conclusions? - -Mr. BOUCK. We will do that, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. What do you think, do the rest of you agree to that? - -Mr. McCLOY. I think it is part of our mission to try to make -recommendations in regard to the future protection of the Presidents. -Actually, we don't want to go into anything which is going to -compromise the future security of Presidents. We simply want to -augment. What we are concerned about is how well equipped we are to -do the job in the light of all the circumstances and I would think -that any conclusions that you have in this regard, if you--the Secret -Service, Treasury--could convey them to us in a form that perhaps we -might endorse, it might be helpful from your point of view and our -point of view. - -Representative FORD. I would agree with that observation. - -Mr. DULLES. You can possibly define categories. You may find the -loner, you may find a fellow engaged in a plot with others for -political reasons and that would help us very much because we find that -particularly the case we are investigating falls into one of these -classes. - -Mr. BOUCK. All right. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -(At this point Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. McCLOY. I think we are ready to go ahead. - -Mr. STERN. Fine, Mr. Chairman. I would like to turn now to the actual -processing by PRS of the information they receive and have Mr. Bouck -tell us what happens to an item of information when it is received, -how it is processed, how the references to field offices are made, -and perhaps you might illustrate, Mr. Bouck, from the cases that are -summarized in Commission Exhibit 762. - -Mr. BOUCK. In Exhibit 760, the second memorandum applies to that, and I -will basically follow that unless questions differ. - -Mr. STERN. I think it would be better for you not to read it but to -paraphrase it, tell us what happens. - -Mr. BOUCK. When a document is received by the Secret Service, it -is first searched against our files to see if we have any previous -experience with this individual or with this threat. If it is found -that we do have previous material there is an analysis made, and then a -determination is made at that point as to what the apparent degree of -threat would be on this. - -If it appears that on the surface there is a threat, lookouts will -immediately be issued to the White House detail, the White House police -and various other security details, in order that they may be alerted -to any danger that happens. - -If the danger seems quite strong, a telephone call will be made to the -field office in order to begin the investigation without even waiting -for the mail. The threat is then processed and sent through the mail -with the documents to the office concerned. - -If it is determined that it is a possible danger, a card is put in a -particular file which would alert us in case the President went to that -area that an investigation of a dangerous person were underway. After -the field office has investigated they would attempt to take corrective -action if a law has been violated, the individual will be prosecuted, -if practical, and if the individual is determined to be mentally ill, -attempts will be made to get commitment into a mental institution. - -When the report is submitted back, if the individual is not confined or -is not evaluated as being no danger, then we would put cards in several -control devices, one being a trip index file to make sure that we -alerted the field office when the President went to that area; another -being a control checkup device which means that if this individual is -regarded as dangerous we will keep checking up on him every few months -to see if he is getting worse or see what he is doing. - -Mr. STERN. Could you illustrate by a case or two from Exhibit 762 -the different kinds of matters that come to your attention and the -different ways in which they are processed? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. On page 2 of this exhibit happens to be a case that -had its origin in the field, in Denton, Tex., of a potential threat -that appeared to apply to Dallas. It was investigated in the field, and -pictures were obtained, and information was obtained and dispensed to -the White House detail at the time President Kennedy went to Dallas, -and in this particular case, it was subsequently referred to PRS and -has been placed in our files and indexed in our indexes. Case No. 3 is -a similar---- - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question there? When you refer to the field -offices, this is the field office of the Secret Service? - -Mr. BOUCK. Field offices of the Secret Service. - -Mr. DULLES. How many do you have? - -Mr. BOUCK. Sixty. - -Mr. DULLES. Sixty? - -Mr. BOUCK. In the United States, and I believe one of those is in -Puerto Rico and one is in Paris, of the 60. - -Mr. DULLES. Those offices cooperate with the FBI offices? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. If you will look over these cases, you will see that -as a matter of fact, this page 3, this case is given as originating -with the chief of police of Denton, Tex., but the FBI already also -determined that and they reported that to us almost simultaneously. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes; that doesn't show up on this particular page. - -Mr. BOUCK. No; it is stated, I think in some other exhibit but I -erroneously neglected it here. But you will find in many of those, that -was true on page 5, that indicates a case where the FBI has picked up -information and gave it to us. - -Mr. STERN. You might mention, perhaps, Mr. Bouck, the cases under the -last tab of your exhibit which were cases that were not investigated, -just as a contrast. - -Mr. BOUCK. That is right. These referrals from the FBI are all through -here. Page 8 is another one where they picked up information and gave -it to us. The first four sections relate to the cases in the four -offices of Texas during a 2-year period. The very final one illustrates -just a little sample of the kind of cases we received in Texas which we -did not think warranted investigation. That will give you an idea of -what those cases amounted to. Why we didn't go into them. - -Mr. McCLOY. Let me ask you this: Are your records and equipment modern -in the sense that you have got punchcards on all these, have you got -the type of equipment that you would think that extensive files and -extensive information and quick access to them might be very important. -Do you have IBM machines and do you have punchcards, for example, so -that you can have quick cross references? - -Mr. BOUCK. No, sir. Our files are conventional, card indexes, -conventional folders. We do not have machine operation in that sense. - -Mr. McCLOY. Don't you think that with all this mass of information that -comes in that that would be an asset to you? - -Mr. BOUCK. If I might defer to Mr. Carswell again, I believe that is -in the document you are handling, discussion of that, am I right, Mr. -Carswell, or in the studies that are going on. - -Mr. CARSWELL. Yes. - -Mr. BOUCK. This is part of this big overall consideration again. - -Mr. McCLOY. It just seems to me this is almost a typical case of where -that type of thing can do you a great deal of good. You have it in -industry to a very marked degree. I wonder whether it could be--I don't -know enough about the flow of these things. - -Mr. BOUCK. This is under a great deal of consideration as a part of -this post-Dallas study that Mr. Carswell referred to and I am quite -sure that it will be contained in the final results. - -Mr. McCLOY. Very well. Go ahead. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question in that connection? You say at -the bottom of the page, this introductory table page, that the total -exceeded 32,000 items. - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Does that mean now you have cards on 32,000 people? - -Mr. BOUCK. Oh, no; we have cards on close to a million people. - -Mr. DULLES. A million people? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. This total then is 1-year total? - -Mr. BOUCK. This is a 2-year total--no, wait a minute. I beg your pardon. - -Mr. McCLOY. 1963. - -Mr. BOUCK. This is a 1-year total for 1943, 1-year total for 1953, and -1-year total for 1963. - -Mr. DULLES. That is just the number, and these figures are cumulative -that you have here? - -Mr. BOUCK. No; everyone is a year. - -Mr. DULLES. That is what I mean, you have the total you have to add -this up for previous years, but you don't keep them forever, you take -some of these out. - -Mr. BOUCK. These are not all cards, but these are items of information. -In 1-year cases we might get 40, 50 items in a particular case, and -these items would go in the case files. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you know how many names you have carded now, -approximately? - -Mr. BOUCK. We have not counted them but we think in the vicinity of a -million but they are not all active, you see. We have no way of knowing -when people die in some cases and things like that. So we don't know -just how many of these million are now active. Certainly very much less -than a million. - -Mr. DULLES. But you have a million names carded? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. In the indexes. - -Mr. STERN. In the files which you describe as basic files, I believe, -how many cases are current, either in your office or within easy access? - -Mr. BOUCK. About 50,000. - -Mr. STERN. About 50,000. So that 950,000 are in some other storage? - -Mr. BOUCK. Not all of these cards, you see, will represent cases -because we have some cases in which many people are involved. There -would be considerably less cases than there would be card indexes, but -we do have a very sizable storage of cases under National Archives, -some of the older ones having gone to places like the Roosevelt Library. - -(At this point Representative Ford left the hearing room.) - -Mr. STERN. These are your basic files which now have something in the -order of 50,000 active cases? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. And some of these involve more than one individual? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. In these cases? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. A case might be an organization, as I understand it, rather -than an individual? - -Mr. BOUCK. That is right. - -Mr. STERN. And the members of that organization would be collected -under that one case? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Would they also be listed individually? - -Mr. BOUCK. They would be listed individually if they were of interest -to us as individuals. Sometimes we would get the membership of a group -of people that attended a lecture, let's say, where very derogatory -information was given out about the President, but most of these -people seem like ordinary citizens and it doesn't seem like worth -investigating. We might have 200 people listed in that, this would not -be normal, but it would be a few cases like that. - -Mr. STERN. Now, as I understand it you by no means investigate every -individual who is in one of these 50,000 cases? - -Mr. BOUCK. That is correct. - -Mr. STERN. And what are the criteria that you use? - -Mr. BOUCK. The criteria for investigation are feelings that there is -indeed an indication that there may be a danger to the President. - -Mr. STERN. But there has to be some indication of a potential danger to -the President to get that individual into a case to begin with, I take -it. If it were clear he was not? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes; but not necessarily a current indication. We take many -of these where we think an individual is becoming hostile and a little -bit disgusted with the President, we take many of those cases to watch -these people. We keep getting information here and there along, and -frequently after we get the second or third piece of information, we -decide indeed this individual is perhaps--does perhaps constitute a -menace, and at that point we would investigate it. - -Mr. STERN. As I understand it, one of the main purposes of your -investigation is to attempt to deal with the dangerous individual at -that time? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. How would you deal with these people whom we are speaking -about? - -Mr. BOUCK. We deal with them primarily in three ways. First, if a law -violation is involved an attempt will be made to see if a prosecution -is in order. - -Mr. STERN. What sort of law violation? - -Mr. BOUCK. Well, we have a threat law, for one, that is under our -jurisdiction. Then in the case---- - -Mr. STERN. This is threats against the President? - -Mr. BOUCK. Threats against the President. Then there is---- - -Mr. DULLES. Is that a local law? - -Mr. BOUCK. No; that is a Federal law. - -Mr. DULLES. It is a Federal law? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. And it involves what sort of act? - -Mr. BOUCK. It involves making a threat to kill the President or to harm -the President. - -Mr. STERN. Not necessarily---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you have a citation of that law? - -Mr. BOUCK. It is in some exhibit, I am sure. - -Mr. McCLOY. I think it is well to put it in the record if we have it. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes; I think it would be very good. - -Mr. CARSWELL. Can we supply it? - -Mr. DULLES. Why don't you supply it? - -(It was later supplied as 18 U.S.C., Section 871.) - -Mr. BOUCK. If the investigation indicates that the individual is -mentally unbalanced, which a high percentage are, then attempt will be -made to persuade local authorities to get hospitalization, confinement -in an institution. - -If neither of those are possible, attempts will be made to get local -officers and family, if they will cooperate, to help us keep track -of him, and we will institute checkups from time to time when we are -investigating. Those are basically the control measures that we are -able to use. In some cases we may conduct surveillance, by the way, if -we can't do any of those, and we regard the man as very dangerous. - -Mr. STERN. I show you a 1-page pink card marked for identification -Commission Exhibit No. 765. Can you tell us what that is? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes; this is a card which we have prepared when an -individual that we have rated as dangerous is placed in an institution, -either a mental institution or a penal institution. We supply that card -to the superintendent of the institution. We ask him to put it in the -front of the individual's case jacket, and it is all filled in so that -the return address and all are on it. The frank portion of it on the -bottom is a frank portion, all he has to do is to indicate whether the -individual has escaped, transferred or been released and drop it in the -mail to advise us on action they may take on letting him out or if he -has escaped. - -Mr. STERN. That is the control you exercise over persons who are -institutionalized in prison or some sort of hospital? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. When an individual is determined after investigation to -present some level of danger but not sufficient to warrant prosecution -or not to be a mentally disturbed person warranting commitment, how do -you control that individual, keep track of him? - -Mr. BOUCK. If we think he is in fact dangerous, he would be in our -checkup file which is really a control device by which at least -every 6 months we reinvestigate and in between times we try to have -arrangements with the family and local officers to let us know if he -leaves town or buys a gun or anything. - -The other device is a geographical card file in which we would put a -card to let us know about this individual in case the President went to -that geographical area so that the office might take a further look and -see if he was a menace. - -Mr. STERN. At the time of Dallas, do you know approximately how many -persons were in institutions under this system where you would be -notified if they left or escaped? - -Mr. BOUCK. I am sorry, I don't have that. - -Mr. STERN. The order of magnitude, any estimate? - -Mr. BOUCK. It would be some thousands but I wouldn't really have a -close idea. I could get that and supply it. I just would have to guess -and it would be a very bad guess. - -Mr. STERN. Fine. But you can determine this for us? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Good. How many at the time of Dallas would be in your -checkup control file system with this periodic review? - -Mr. BOUCK. About 400. - -Mr. STERN. 400 individuals? - -Mr. BOUCK. That is nationwide. - -Mr. STERN. Again, at the time of Dallas, how many individuals would -have been listed in the trip-index file which you have described? - -Mr. BOUCK. About a hundred. - -Mr. STERN. One hundred in the Nation? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. What are the criteria for putting someone's name in the -trip-index file? - -Mr. BOUCK. The belief on the part of the local field office, with -confirmation from the Protective Research Section that this individual -would indeed constitute a risk to the President's safety, if he went to -that area. - -Mr. STERN. This is done, this is organized, on a geographic basis? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. By Secret Service field offices? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Is there any other control device that you employed at the -time of Dallas? - -Mr. BOUCK. We had at the time a very small device that we call an -album which has a few, perhaps 12 or 15 people that we consider very -dangerous or at least dangerous and so mobile that we can't be sure -where they might be. This is a constant thing. Copies of these are kept -before the protective personnel at the White House all the time. This -resides in their office. - -Senator COOPER. On that point, if this last category represents a group -that is so highly dangerous, have any individuals in that group reached -the place where they have made such statements as would bring them -under the Federal act which would require prosecution? - -Mr. BOUCK. No, sir; if they were prosecutable we would seek that -solution immediately, and many of them have been taken to the district -attorney and it has just been determined they do not quite meet the -requirements for prosecution. - -Some have been prosecuted, and have served sentences and are out at the -end of sentences but still thought to be dangerous. - -Senator COOPER. Yes. - -Mr. BOUCK. Some have been in mental institutions and discharged, and -there isn't ground to put them back but we are still afraid of them. - -Mr. STERN. Are the individuals who are listed in the trip-index file, -which numbered at the time of Dallas about 100, also listed in the -checkup control files? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. Yes; they would, primarily that 100 would to a large -degree be in both places. - -Mr. STERN. Then it is a fair summary, Mr. Bouck, that at the time of -Dallas the number of individuals that you were concerned with were -some thousands, the number you will supply, who were institutionalized -either in prison or in mental hospitals, and with such institutions -you had an arrangement that would promptly notify you of the discharge -or escape of that individual, some 400 on a systematic review, -approximately every 6 months by your field offices, of which 400, 100 -were separately identified as particularly dangerous in the trip-index -file, and some 12 to 15 whose photographs were in the album? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes; I think---- - -Mr. STERN. As a matter of fact, I would suppose the people in the album -would also be in the checkup control file so really we are talking -about, are we not, the unknown number in institutions, and about 400 -other individuals whom you were actively reviewing and about whom you -would be concerned on the occasion of the President's trip? - -Mr. BOUCK. That is right. - -Mr. STERN. In addition, you had files on, active files on, -approximately 50,000 cases involving at least that number and probably -more, individuals which were your basic library, as it were, but of -reference use only until more information was developed about them? - -Mr. BOUCK. Well, I think you are quite accurate except in the last -category. In these 50,000 cases would be tremendous numbers of cases -that had been given investigative attention, and had been determined -that our first thought or our first indications of danger were not -substantiated. The investigator, and we concurred, felt that the -individual, at least at any particular time, that this particular -individual was not really in fact a menace to the President's life. - -Mr. DULLES. What was the location of these 50,000 cases? We are talking -now about Dallas, is that countrywide? - -Mr. BOUCK. Countrywide. - -Mr. McCLOY. International. - -Mr. BOUCK. It is worldwide over a period of 20 years. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. Somebody in Thailand, if he was in Thailand wouldn't -be of much danger in Dallas. - -Mr. STERN. But he would, as I understand it, sir, be included in the -basic files if he had come to their attention as a potential danger. - -Mr. DULLES. Someone in New Orleans, for example, he could get up to -Dallas very quickly or if he were in Houston, but this 50,000 covers -the whole world. - -Mr. STERN. Yes; and I think the important point here, Mr. Dulles, is -that these are 50,000 cases of background information, including people -already investigated and found not to represent danger. The number of -cases under active scrutiny at the time of Dallas amounted to about -400, who were reviewed periodically, plus a much larger number, in -the thousands, of persons committed or imprisoned, and as to those, I -expect there would be no problem until they were released. - -Mr. BOUCK. That is right. - -Mr. STERN. And you had a system to be notified about the release or -escape, is that correct? - -Mr. BOUCK. That is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. So can we get from that about the number of cases you felt -to look at in connection with the President's trip to Dallas? - -Mr. BOUCK. We actually---- - -Mr. DULLES. What range would that be? - -Mr. BOUCK. We actually looked at a volume of cases approximating 400 in -connection with the trip to Dallas. - -Mr. STERN. Well---- - -Mr. BOUCK. That is the total file that we looked into. - -Mr. STERN. On a national basis? - -Mr. BOUCK. The total two or three files we looked into would encompass -about that many people. - -Mr. DULLES. All right. That gives me just what I was asking for. - -Mr. STERN. In point of fact, Mr. Bouck, when you looked at the checkup -control file and the trip-index file before the Dallas trip how many -names were reported for the areas in the Dallas field office territory -where the President was to visit? - -Mr. BOUCK. We found no uncontrolled people in the trip file for Dallas. -All of the cases in Dallas were controlled to our satisfaction. We -found also in the checkup file no uncontrolled individuals that we -thought warranted an alert for Dallas. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you ask the FBI or any other local agency for any cases -they might have? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. In connection with the trip? - -Mr. BOUCK. In fact, they referred several cases to us in connection -with the trip, right prior to the trip on the local level. - -Mr. DULLES. On the local level? - -Mr. BOUCK. On the local level. - -Mr. McCLOY. Being as objective as you can be under the circumstances, -what would you have done if the FBI had told you there was a man named -Oswald in Dallas, who was a defector, had been a defector? - -Mr. BOUCK. I think if they had told us only that, we probably would not -have taken action. If I might qualify it further, if we had known what -all of the Government agencies knew together, and knew that he had that -vantage point on the route, then we certainly would have taken very -drastic action. - -Mr. McCLOY. If they had told you that there was a man named Oswald in -Dallas, who had been a defector, who was employed at the Texas School -Book Depository? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, sir; we would have looked at that. - -Mr. McCLOY. You would have looked at that? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Knowing that the Texas School Book Depository was on the -President's route? - -Mr. BOUCK. On the President's route. - -Mr. STERN. Would it have made a difference to you if he was a -legitimate employee of that institution? - -Mr. BOUCK. Well, not from our standpoint of having us look at it. I -can't predict too well what the field office would have done after they -looked. It would depend on what they found out, but the field office -would have checked that. We would has asked them to check it and they -would in fact have checked it not knowing what conclusions they would -have arrived at, I don't quite--I am not quite able to predict just -what measures they would have taken. - -Senator COOPER. May I ask a question on this point? Have you examined -your records since the assassination of President Kennedy to determine -if the name Lee Oswald appears in your files? - -Mr. BOUCK. We have never had it prior in any connection, never in our -records. - -Senator COOPER. I gathered from what you said in response to Mr. -McCloy's question you do not keep any special file relating to -defectors? - -Mr. BOUCK. No, sir. - -Senator COOPER. In this country? - -Mr. BOUCK. Not unless there is something much more to it than the fact -they defected. - -Senator COOPER. Then in the case of Lee Oswald from your statement -that you do not keep any file on defectors, if you had known about his -presence there, what would have been the cause then for you to have -taken special notice of him? - -Mr. BOUCK. The key there would have been a defection plus a knowledge -that he had a vantage point on the route. Those two together would have -required action. - -Senator COOPER. The point I make is, and this again is arguing after -the fact, if the fact he was a defector, plus a vantage point would -make you take notice of him it would seem to me it would be very -substantial evidence to have in your file that he was a defector, -wouldn't you think so? - -Mr. BOUCK. Well, again, this is part of this big study that we are in. -We never before knew, I think, of a defector who did anything like -this so we are not quite sure that defection in itself is a key to an -assassin. However, that combined with certain things, knowing that he -had a vantage point would have caused us to look. - -Mr. STERN. Were there any other characteristics of Oswald that you -believe to have been known to other Federal agencies before November 22 -that would have been important to you in deciding whether or not he was -a potential threat? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. I think I have supplied you with a list of about 18 -things that were known to the Federal agencies, but these, I believe, -were spread from Moscow to Mexico City in at least four agencies, so I -am not aware of how much any one agency or any one person might have -known. - -But there was quite a little bit of derogatory information known about -Oswald in this broad expanse of agencies. - -Mr. STERN. Without respect to any such list, what other -characteristics, trying as much as possible to avoid hindsight, do you -think were germane to determine his potential danger? - -Mr. BOUCK. I would think his continued association with the Russian -Embassy after his return, his association with the Castro groups would -have been of concern to us, a knowledge that he had, I believe, been -court-martialed for illegal possession of a gun, of a hand gun in the -Marines, that he had owned a weapon and did a good deal of hunting -or use of it, perhaps in Russia, plus a number of items about his -disposition and unreliability of character, I think all of those, -if we had had them altogether, would have added up to pointing out a -pretty bad individual, and I think that, together, had we known that -he had a vantage point would have seemed somewhat serious to us, even -though I must admit that none of these in themselves would be--would -meet our specific criteria, none of them alone. - -But it is when you begin adding them up to some degree that you begin -to get criteria that are meaningful. - -Senator COOPER. I am sure you have answered what I am going to ask but -I will ask it anyway. Then it is correct prior to the assassination the -Secret Service had no information from any agency or any source---- - -Mr. BOUCK. That is correct. - -Senator COOPER. Relating to Lee Oswald? - -Mr. BOUCK. That is correct. - -Mr. STERN. I believe you said earlier, Mr. Bouck, that before Dallas -you thought the liaison arrangements were satisfactory and that other -Federal agencies, in particular, had full awareness of the kind of -information that the Secret Service was looking for under the general -criteria that you articulated? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Why then, do you think you were not notified of Oswald? Was -there perhaps something wrong with the system? - -Mr. BOUCK. This, of course, is opinion. In my opinion, there was -no lack of knowledge of what we should have. Insofar as I know no -individual knew enough about Oswald to judge him to meet our criteria -of presenting a danger to the President. I know of no individual who -knew all about Oswald, including the fact that he had a vantage point -on the route. - -If that is so, I don't know. I didn't know. - -Mr. McCLOY. Somebody in the FBI knew it, didn't they? - -Mr. BOUCK. I have no record to know that. They knew certain -information. I have no record that would indicate they knew all of the -derogatory information. - -Mr. McCLOY. I don't know I would say they knew all the derogatory -information but they certainly knew the vantage point and they -certainly knew the defection elements. - -Mr. BOUCK. I know they knew he was in Dallas. Whether they recognized -that as being on the route, I don't know that. - -Mr. McCLOY. I think the record shows he was employed there, or the -deposition shows. - -Mr. BOUCK. I don't know that. - -Mr. STERN. Is it of key importance to what you say now regarding the -information on Oswald before the assassination to identify his vantage -point? If you would take that away from the other characteristics does -he then not become a threat? - -Mr. BOUCK. He would not meet the criteria of a threat as we had it at -that time, if you take that away. - -Mr. STERN. And the criterion was---- - -Mr. BOUCK. That there be some specific indication that a possible -danger to the President existed. - -Mr. DULLES. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. McCLOY. Back on the record. - -Mr. STERN. Well, Mr. Bouck, if the pivotal ingredient is his employment -at that Depository, is that because that showed some, to your mind, -some intention, some desire to be on the route, because access to the -route---- - -Mr. BOUCK. No; it relates him to the President. This, I think if all -the information that was known about him, indicates that he was a -pretty untrustworthy individual, I think there was no indication that -that untrustworthiness might be of a danger to the President until you -associated that he had a vantage point where he might use it toward the -President. - -There was nothing previous that indicated that the President might be -an object of this, and---- - -Mr. STERN. As far as any of us know, any citizen had pretty much the -same sort of access to the parade route. Is there any difference---- - -Mr. BOUCK. We would feel the same way if we knew this much derogatory -type of information about any citizen if we knew he had a particular -vantage point on a route. - -Mr. STERN. But a citizen, possessing all the characteristics you -believe to have been known about Oswald but not having access through -employment or residence or some comparable relationship to the parade -route, would not have been of concern to you under the criteria and -practices in effect at the time of Dallas, is that what you are saying? - -Mr. BOUCK. I think a little broader than that. Access of any kind, -working in a hotel or any point where he might have unusual access. - -If you broaden the question to that, I would say that is what I am -saying. - -Mr. STERN. Unusual access? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. If I might intervene here, if I understand it. I don't know -whether it is good but there is speculation and conjecture in it, I -don't know if you will get far with it. Probably if you had known all -the derogatory information that you now know was accumulated in all of -the agencies of the Government irrespective of where this fellow was in -Dallas you might have kept your eye on him. - -Mr. BOUCK. Again, that would be speculation. I don't know. It wouldn't -be normal. It wouldn't fit within our normal category unless we knew he -was--he had a vantage point. We know of tremendous numbers of people -who are bad people that we don't keep an eye on. - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes; but suppose you knew these men, or suppose you -encountered some of these defectors. I am told there are 18 others, -wouldn't you have been somewhat negligent if you didn't check up on him -when he got to the vantage point in Dallas? - -Mr. BOUCK. If we had checked up, I don't know whether we would have -gone beyond that. - -Mr. McCLOY. I don't suggest that but you might have kept him under -surveillance. - -Mr. BOUCK. We would have taken note of this. - -Mr. STERN. Would that have been true if he had not been known to be -living in Dallas, if his last known address was New Orleans? - -Mr. BOUCK. If he had not been living in Dallas we would not have -checked on on him in this trip area even with the other information. - -Mr. STERN. Suppose he had been living in Fort Worth? - -Mr. BOUCK. Well, if we had known he were living in Fort Worth that -would be the same as Dallas, to us. When we speak of a city we speak of -the driving distance or the commutable distance to a city. - -Mr. STERN. We will move very quickly to questions concerning Oswald and -I would like to go back now and cover the details of your file search -and other PRS activity for the Texas trip, the total Texas trip. If -you would start with the first date you heard that the President was -preparing to travel to Texas and tell us what your Section did and what -you found. - -Mr. BOUCK. Our first knowledge of the Texas trip was on November 8 when -the advance agent, Agent Lawson, reported to the Protective Research -Section that the President was going to Texas, and that Dallas was one -of the stops. A check at that time was made of our trip index, and no -cards were found on Dallas to indicate that there was an uncontrolled -dangerous person in Dallas. - -Two such people were found at the Houston stop. This information was -imparted to Mr. Lawson at that time. - -Mr. STERN. Excuse me, could you identify the two Houston cases from -Exhibit 762? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes; they are in here. Case No. 21 is one. This individual -is a local law-enforcement officer that was not considered awfully -dangerous but again because he might have an unusual vantage point we -made arrangements each time to see that he was not used in any way -that he might have a vantage point. Case 26 is the other one, which is -a case that goes back many, many years of an individual who has been -repeatedly threatening but we have been unable to do much about. She -has been in and out of mental hospitals. - -Mr. STERN. So these were the two cases? - -Mr. BOUCK. The two cases. - -Mr. STERN. That were in the trip-index file involving the jurisdiction -of the Houston field office? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -A notation was made at that time for the individual in charge of that -section and on the 14th he again checked that file. He pulled out these -two cards, and he checked the checkup file and concluded that these -in the State of Texas were the only two uncontrolled people that we -should alert the field about, and he pulled the case jackets on these -two people and reviewed those, and then caused an alert to be prepared -on these two people, the original being sent to the White House Detail, -and the copy being sent to the field office. - -Mr. STERN. These are the same two Houston cases? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Was there an additional case added on the 14th? - -Mr. BOUCK. No; not by our section. There were just the two. There were -cases picked up in the field on some of these, but we only sent out the -two cases as being in our opinion of protective concern on that trip. - -Mr. STERN. Would you look, Mr. Bouck, please, at the first page of -Exhibit 760, the first text page, the third paragraph, the middle of -the paragraph, it says, "On November 14, 1963, the above indicated -clerical employee prepared an office memorandum advising the name of -one PRS subject who had previously been referred to the interested -offices and was still of concern and furnishing identifying data on a -new PRS subject who had not been previously included in the alert." - -Mr. BOUCK. These were the two cases. The one we had alerted on a -previous trip, the deputy sheriff one, had not been, that had occurred -since a previous trip and so this was the first time that we had told -the detail and the field office that this individual should be looked -at. Making a total of two. - -Mr. STERN. Were there entries in the trip-index file then for the other -cities that the President was planning to visit or the other field -office areas, Dallas, San Antonio, and El Paso? - -Mr. BOUCK. No; there were no cards on any of the other three cities, -indicating uncontrolled people. - -Mr. STERN. So in the four field offices covering the entire State of -Texas there were in the trip index only two cards both of them residing -in the Houston office area? - -Mr. BOUCK. That is correct. - -Mr. STERN. Now, do you know what was done in Dallas to supplement this -investigation into potentially harmful people? - -Mr. BOUCK. Dallas made contact with the local authorities, they had -contact with the FBI, they had contact with the local police in Dallas, -and also some of the suburbs, particularly Denton, Tex., in which they -received information on several situations and several individuals in -addition to, well, they received this information. - -Mr. STERN. Are those cases summarized in Exhibit 762? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes; they are. I think the first one of those is page No. 2 -of Exhibit 762, which involved people who had attempted to embarrass -Ambassador Stevenson. Also page 3 is a further one. I believe they -also received information on some scurrilous literature that was being -circulated in Dallas at that time from the FBI. - -Mr. STERN. Now, referring to the visit of Ambassador Stevenson in -October, I believe---- - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Was anything done at the time of that visit in October to -identify the people who were participating in the obstreperous conduct -that occurred? - -Mr. BOUCK. I do not know. It was nothing---- - -Mr. STERN. So far as PRS was concerned? - -Mr. BOUCK. Nothing was done by PRS. - -Mr. STERN. These individuals did come to light in the liaison -activities just prior to President Kennedy's trip to Dallas? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. And they were then, as I understand it, placed in your -permanent records and are now in your trip-index files? - -Mr. BOUCK. That is correct. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Bouck, since the Stevenson trip received a great deal of -publicity and I take it you knew about it at the time or PRS knew about -it, can you tell us why there was no effort in October to determine -who these people were for possible use if President Kennedy or a later -President should consider a trip to Dallas? - -Mr. BOUCK. Well, there are a great many disturbances and activities -around, and we have never felt that we should document those per se -inasmuch as they did not constitute a jurisdiction--they were not -within our jurisdiction except when the President went to an area, -so it has always been something that we attempted to resolve when we -had jurisdiction in the area because the President was going there, -rather than engage in investigative activity that was not within our -jurisdiction just per se, whenever there was a disturbance. - -Mr. STERN. I am not sure I follow that. I take it your jurisdiction -is to determine, perhaps not to act upon, but to determine people who -might be threats to the President or Vice-President. - -Mr. BOUCK. These people were not judged at that time to be threats to -the President, necessarily. - -Mr. STERN. I see. Their activities in connection with Ambassador -Stevenson's visit did not seem to you at that time---- - -Mr. BOUCK. They did not fit our criteria as being a direct indication -that the President might be harmed, but then when the President went to -that area, then a more serious connotation was put on those people and -they were investigated and were identified and pictures were made of -them and given to the agents. - -Mr. STERN. That is because the President was then going to that area? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes; that is right. - -Mr. STERN. Suppose the President was going to another area to which -these individuals had moved in between the Stevenson visit and the -hypothetical Presidential trip. You would have had no record of them, -no way of knowing about them, is that correct? - -Mr. BOUCK. No; that would have to--unless it had been reported to me -they had moved, then the only way we would pick that up would be in the -local liaison which begins some days before a trip. - -Mr. STERN. But there would have been no basis to report to you that -they had moved as I understand it because they would not have been -persons of concern to you merely because of their involvement in the -Stevenson affair? - -Mr. BOUCK. That is probably right. - -Mr. McCLOY. To summarize your testimony a bit, I gather that the -fundamental criterion that you were looking for is the potential -threat to the health and life of the President of the United States, -that you are not a general security agency of the United States, but -are directed particularly to that particular objective, and one of -the things that alerts you most is the threat, and then you examine -that threat to determine whether or not it is a serious threat. A lot -of elements enter into that and at that point when it does become a -serious threat, then you put it on your alert files, is that abut right? - -Mr. BOUCK. That is a very good---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Furthermore---- - -Mr. BOUCK. Analysis. - -Mr. McCLOY. Flowing from that the mere fact that a man or woman was a -defector, or a man is a member of a political organization doesn't in -itself embody the threat to the United States, to the President, the -person of the President of the United States. - -Mr. BOUCK. Right. - -Mr. McCLOY. It is only as there is some additional element that causes -you to fear that there is a potential menace that you put in that -category you have been talking about? - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. I think we might illustrate that, Mr. McCloy, by a series of -abstracts of cases that Mr. Bouck has prepared. I show you Commission -Exhibit No. 766 for identification. - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. And would you describe that and summarize very briefly the -cases involved there which I think are intended to typify, are they -not---- - -Mr. BOUCK. Yes; I prepared this and the thought was that the Commission -might be interested in a couple of examples of how the PRS function has -been helpful in protection, and so three cases have been presented in -this paper. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Bouck, have you anything you would like to add, any -clarification, any amplification of the matters we have discussed this -morning? - -Mr. BOUCK. I don't believe so. I think Mr. McCloy's summary probably -exceeds anything I could give, and I think it is quite good and -reflects, I believe, what we were trying to get at here. - -Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed the memoranda and other exhibits that -you have identified this morning and do you have any corrections or -additions to make to those? - -Mr. BOUCK. No, sir; I think they are accurate. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to request the admission of all -the exhibits that Mr. Bouck has identified for us this morning. I have -no further questions. - -Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. - -(The documents referred to, previously marked as Commission Exhibit -Nos. 760 through 766, were received in evidence.) - -Mr. McCLOY. I have one more question I would like to ask you. In the -light of what you know now about the whole episode, have you come to -any conclusions as to how you ought to operate in the future other than -you did in the Dallas situation? - -Mr. BOUCK. As Mr. Carswell has mentioned, of course, a great deal -of study is being conducted. I think there are a number of other -things that can be done. Great problems arise as to human rights and -constitutional rights and costs and resources and just sheer--dealing -with just sheer volumes of millions of people, and I do not feel I -would want to give final judgment as to whether we should do these -things until we have completed all of these studies, but perhaps there -will be some that will---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you at this stage have any definite ideas about any -steps that ought to be taken for the added protection of the President? - -Mr. BOUCK. Well, I have quite a lot of them which are incorporated in -this study. I have been, and as I understand it, the Commission perhaps -will have the benefit of that but I have been very heavily involved -in many, many ways in this study, and as to the final conclusions, of -course, I think maybe it goes all the way to the Congress to decide the -practicality of some of this. - -Mr. McCLOY. I am sure it does. - -Mr. BOUCK. I just don't quite feel in a position to say that I would -want to recommend most of these things without reservation at this -time. If I might, without presuming to evade your question, if we could -delay that a little bit until we have completed this rather massive -look that we are now taking. - -Mr. McCLOY. Very well. Thank you very much for your cooperation, and -very much obliged to you and the Treasury Department for helping us. - -Mr. BOUCK. Thank you, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. To achieve our--perform our duties. - -Thank you. - -We will adjourn until 2 o'clock. - -(Whereupon, at 1 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Afternoon Session - -TESTIMONY OF WINSTON G. LAWSON, ACCOMPANIED BY FRED B. SMITH, DEPUTY -GENERAL COUNSEL, TREASURY DEPARTMENT - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m. - -Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Lawson, you know the general purpose of what we are -here for? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. In the way of trying to get as much information as we can, -not only regarding the assassination of the President but also some -background as to the steps that have been taken to protect him and as -well as perhaps to take some testimony with the thought that we might -be able to recommend measures that might insure future security of our -Presidents. I will ask you, if you will, to rise and I will swear you. - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this hearing will -be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Mr. LAWSON. I do. - -Mr. McCLOY. Go ahead. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Lawson, would you state your name, age, and address for -the record, please? - -Mr. LAWSON. Winston George Lawson, 35 years old, 516 Vista Drive, -apartment 204. Falls Church, Va. - -Mr. STERN. What was your education at the college level? - -Mr. LAWSON. A bachelor of arts with a major in history and government. - -Mr. STERN. From what? - -Mr. LAWSON. University of Buffalo, 1949. - -Mr. STERN. Briefly, what was your employment experience from 1949 to -1959? - -Mr. LAWSON. From the time of my graduation after a couple of -months working for a firm that my father worked for, I became a -wholesale carpet salesman until December 1951, and then I joined the -Carnation Co., manufacturers of milk products nationally, and was a -representative in various capacities for them in New York State. In -1953, March, I went in the Army and I had been a reservist and was -called up as a CIC agent. I had 16 weeks of basic infantry, basic -training, went to the CIC Counterintelligence School in Holabird, -Md.--Fort Holabird, Md.--outside of Baltimore, and then was assigned -eventually to the Lexington field office where I did general -counterintelligence work for the Army, background investigations, and -some interviews of the prisoners, POW's from the Korean war. - -After I returned to civilian life in 1955, I returned to the Carnation -Milk Co. and had various sales or public relations jobs with them in -Poughkeepsie, N.Y., Syracuse, N.Y., generally covering most of the -State of New York. I applied to enter the Secret Service approximately -3 years before I was accepted, and entered the Secret Service in -October 1959 in the Syracuse field office. - -Mr. STERN. Will you tell us of your experience in the Secret Service, -describing briefly each assignment of work? - -Mr. McCLOY. When you say CIC agent you mean---- - -Mr. LAWSON. Counterintelligence agent; yes, sir, in the Army. I was -hired as an agent in the Syracuse field office, and did general -investigative work in the Syracuse area, part of New York State, with -time out for a special assignment during the Eisenhower administration -for approximately 21 days when I had to come to Washington to replace -some agents who were advancing some large trips in South America. I -was away from the Syracuse office in Treasury School for 6 weeks and I -was away from the Syracuse office for 5 weeks while I attended Secret -Service School. - -I was here in Secret Service School during the inauguration of -President Kennedy. The school was let out for that day so that they -could take advantage of the agents that were here in town for post -assignments. After returning to Syracuse for approximately 3 weeks I -was transferred to Washington on the White House detail in March 1961. - -Mr. STERN. And you have been a member of the White House detail. - -Mr. LAWSON. Of the White House detail. - -Mr. STERN. Since then? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. What has your experience been, Mr. Lawson, in doing advance -work for Presidential or Vice Presidential trips? - -Mr. LAWSON. I have assisted on some advances and I have had the overall -responsibility on some others. Some of my overall responsibilities were -Billings, Mont.; Little Rock; Buffalo and Niagara Falls, N.Y.; Cherry -Point, N.C. - -Mr. STERN. Approximately how many trips did you have the major -responsibility for, and how many did you assist on in doing advance -work? - -Mr. LAWSON. I have assisted on five or six and had the major -responsibility on seven or eight, I believe, and then have done what we -call local advances here in the Washington area, if the President is -going to a dinner or to a speech or to a function here in Washington. - -Mr. STERN. Do all members of the White House detail do advance work for -Presidential trips? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; after they have been there a few months perhaps, -or sometimes a little less, depending on the need of advances, they -are assigned to go out and help on some advances, and then they will -work regular shift work for a while and then they may be assigned other -advances and then a little bit later have the responsibility of one. - -Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Ford, this is Mr. Lawson from the Secret Service. He -is just giving us his qualifications and giving his experience up to -the time that he was given responsibility in connection with making -preparations, advance preparations, for Presidential trips. - -Mr. STERN. When you are not doing advance work, Mr. Lawson, what are -your general responsibilities? - -Mr. LAWSON. I am assigned to a regular shift, of which there are -three on the White House detail, and we work 2 weeks 4 to 12, 2 weeks -midnights, 2 weeks days. That is generally because if there is a -Presidential movement here in Washington, usually if it is a daytime -engagement the 4-to-12 shift will have to come in and work extra. -If it is an evening engagement, why, the 8-to-4 shift will have to -work extra. And then as the President takes trips, if we are assigned -to work that day we would also go along as a regular working agent, -accompanying him or going just ahead of him. - -Mr. STERN. When you do the advance work for a trip, do you file reports -in connection with the work you have done? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Do you typically file a report somewhere in the middle of -the advance and then at the end, or how does it work? What are your -responsibilities? - -Mr. LAWSON. Until just prior to the Dallas trip we had a report -which we tried to get out if it was at all possible and send back -to Washington, the complete report at that time, and then write a -supplemental after we returned to Washington, with any changes. The -first advance and the advance that I had in Billings, Mont., and in -Little Rock, Ark., I was able to do that. Those were in September and -October of 1963. However, they changed the reporting system so that we -send a preliminary report, and it was the first one of this type that I -had had after the Dallas trip. So this one has a preliminary report and -also a final survey report. - -Mr. DULLES. How much forenotice did you have of the Dallas trip; do you -recall? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; I was notified of it on November 4, which is -quite a bit of notice. - -Mr. DULLES. So you could start your preparations for it on November 4, -approximately? - -Mr. LAWSON. I was notified that there would be a trip, but that I would -have more information on November 8; yes, sir; and I was given more -information on November 8. - -Mr. DULLES. And when was it in that period that you were notified that -Dallas was to be visited? - -Mr. LAWSON. On November 4. - -Mr. DULLES. On November 4? - -Mr. LAWSON. I was told that I would be going to Dallas, but they didn't -know very many of the details yet and wouldn't until November 8. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Lawson, I show you a document marked for identification -Commission No. 767. Can you identify that? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; I can. It is my preliminary report for the Dallas -trip. - -Mr. STERN. And that was prepared when? - -Mr. LAWSON. That was prepared in Dallas, late afternoon or early -evening Tuesday, November 19, and sent to Washington by airplane. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Chairman, may this be admitted? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 767 was received in evidence.) - -Mr. STERN. I now show you a document marked for identification -Commission No. 768. Can you identify that, Mr. Lawson? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; that is a final survey report which I prepared -upon my return from Dallas. - -Mr. STERN. And that is the final report in this preliminary-final -report arrangement---- - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Which you have described? And can you identify this -additional document marked for identification Commission Exhibit No. -769? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; this is a statement of the activities that I had, -to the best of my knowledge, in connection with the Presidential visit -to Dallas covering my activities only pertaining to the Dallas trip -from November 4 through 21. - -Mr. STERN. This, I take it, was not a routine report? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; it was not. - -Mr. STERN. It was prepared because of what transpired at Dallas? Mr. -Chairman, may we have admitted 768 and 769? - -Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibits Nos. 768 and 769 were received in evidence.) - -Mr. STERN. Now, beginning November 8, can you tell us the preparations -for your trip that you did here in Washington? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes. Acting on the instruction to come into the office on -November 8 for the additional instructions that I had been told I would -receive, Mr. Roy Kellerman, who is an assistant special agent in charge -of the detail, gave myself and other members of the advance teams going -out what information they had up to that time on their respective -stops. Mr. Kellerman told me the name of Mr. Jack Puterbaugh, whom I -would meet on an airplane taking the advance agents to Dallas the next -week. I contacted the White House Communications Agency to see if they -were sending a communications representative along to help out as they -usually did, and was given his name. Mr. Kellerman gave me the name of -a car contact in the Dallas area so that we would be able to obtain -cars for the motorcade, which is normal. - -Mr. STERN. These are cars, as I understand it---- - -Mr. LAWSON. For the Presidential party. - -Mr. STERN. Furnished to you by---- - -Mr. LAWSON. The Ford Motor Co. - -Mr. STERN. By people in the area that you visit---- - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. For use during the visit of the President? Were you told -anything about the assistance you would have in doing advance work for -the Dallas trip? - -Mr. LAWSON. Could you be more explicit, please? - -Mr. STERN. Whether you would have another agent assigned to do the work -with you? - -Mr. LAWSON. Oh, yes. I had been told earlier, sometime between November -4 and 8, that another agent would be accompanying me, but, because of -the Presidential trips which were occurring right at that time, that -they would not be able to send out one at the same time, and he would -have to join me later in Dallas after some of the other trips had been -taken care of. - -Mr. STERN. What were the usual arrangements as far as assignments? - -Mr. LAWSON. Quite often two agents would go out at the same time; yes, -sir. - -Mr. STERN. And your responsibilities and those of this other agent when -he joined you pertained only to Dallas; is that correct? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. You were not concerned with any other city in the -President's route? - -Mr. LAWSON. Not on that occasion; no, sir. - -Mr. STERN. And each of those cities had its own advance agent or agents? - -Mr. LAWSON. That is correct. - -Mr. STERN. Doing the same work you were doing? - -Mr. LAWSON. That is correct. - -Mr. STERN. When, in fact, did the other agent join you? - -Mr. LAWSON. On Monday evening. May I refer to the date of this? - -Mr. STERN. Please. - -Mr. LAWSON. November 18; Monday evening. - -Mr. STERN. Now, what steps did you take in Washington before you left, -with respect to determining the names and other information about -persons who might be in the Dallas area and who might be regarded as -potential threats to the President? - -Mr. LAWSON. I went--on November 8, after leaving Mr. Kellerman's -office, I went to the office in the Executive Office Building where -our agents of the Protective Research Section are, and notified agents -at that location that I was being assigned the advance for Dallas, -Tex., trip, the date of this trip, and that I requested them to check -their files and determine as to whether I should have the name of any -individual in the Dallas area who was of record to us as an active -subject. - -Mr. STERN. Was this request made in writing? - -Mr. LAWSON. It was oral, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Is it usually made that way, orally? Do you ever make a -written request? - -Mr. LAWSON. I have never done so. I don't know about the other -individuals. - -Mr. STERN. What did they tell you? - -Mr. LAWSON. I was told after waiting there a little while that -there were no subjects of record in the Dallas area, of active PRS -individuals that we would expect to harm the President. - -Mr. STERN. And this check was made while you were present in the office? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Representative FORD. How long did it take, for example? - -Mr. LAWSON. I believe I was there approximately 10 minutes. Not much -more than 10 minutes, sir. - -Representative FORD. In other words, they made this check on your -behalf in that period of time? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Do you know how they went about it? Did you -observe how they went about it? - -Mr. LAWSON. In looking back I can recall the individuals going to -certain files, but I have never worked in the PRS Section and I only -know general information about it. - -Representative FORD. You asked somebody to check on the names of people -who might be a threat in Dallas? - -Mr. LAWSON. That is correct, sir. - -Representative FORD. And within a period of 10 minutes they came back -and said there were no names? - -Mr. LAWSON. That is right, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. What was their answer again? I didn't quite clearly hear it -when you said it the first time. - -Mr. LAWSON. I don't believe I could give you an exact answer. - -Mr. DULLES. In general what was your recollection? - -Mr. LAWSON. There were no PRS subjects, active PRS subjects which would -be a threat to the President to our knowledge in the Dallas area in the -files. - -Mr. DULLES. And would you define PRS? - -Mr. LAWSON. Protective Research Section. - -Mr. STERN. Was there a file that you yourself checked preliminary to -your trip? - -Mr. LAWSON. I don't believe so. - -Mr. STERN. Not a file of individuals but a file that might be helpful -to you in your advance work for Dallas? - -Mr. LAWSON. We have files of past trips, some of President -Eisenhower's. I am not sure how long ago they go back because they -are probably taken out and put some place else periodically. But -for example we have all of President Kennedy's trips right now plus -President Johnson's current ones, and an agent could if he desired, if -he was being assigned to a city, go and see if the President had been -there recently, and look in that for names or perhaps if he was going -to the same hotel or something, this would give him names of people -to contact there. He might obtain information. There was no report on -Dallas for President Kennedy. - -Mr. STERN. You checked? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. And found no report. This file would contain the reports -such as your final report which we have marked "768," is that right? - -Mr. LAWSON. That is correct. - -Mr. STERN. There was nothing in there---- - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Reflecting any recent trip to the Dallas area? - -Mr. LAWSON. That is correct. - -Mr. STERN. Did anything else transpire before you left for Dallas as -far as advance preparation? - -Mr. LAWSON. I picked up paraphernalia that we use, sometimes more than -other times depending on the type of trip it is. If there is to be a -motorcade as there is in this case, we usually get car numbers for -the windows and some identification pins for people who will not have -identification supplied by a local committee, and other paraphernalia -of this type, and I obtained those and took them with me. - -Mr. STERN. Did anything else happen before you left for Dallas? - -Mr. LAWSON. I called the Dallas office, the agent in charge was not in, -and talked to another agent, told him that I was coming down with other -agents on the Texas trip and would be dropped off at approximately 7:30 -on the evening, Tuesday evening, of the next week, and---- - -Mr. STERN. What was the date? - -Mr. LAWSON. I believe that is the 12th of November. That Mr. Puterbaugh -and Chief Warrant Officer Bales from the Communications Agency, White -House, would be accompanying me, and would they make arrangements to -please have us met at the airport and for rooms. And then dictated a -confirming memo before I left on the eighth. - -Representative FORD. Did you have any other contacts with PRS other -than this one? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. STERN. You then went to Dallas on November 12? - -Mr. LAWSON. That is correct. - -Mr. STERN. What did you do in Dallas from the time of your arrival in -connection with trying to learn about people who might be potentially -dangerous to the President? - -Mr. LAWSON. I was aware of the so-called Stevenson incident and so I -didn't have to be told that there. - -Mr. STERN. How did you become aware of that? - -Mr. LAWSON. I had read it in the paper, and so without making inquiries -I was aware of that when I went there. - -Mr. STERN. You received no specific advice about that from PRS? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I was aware of this fact. And then of course -it was after I arrived there people were talking about it also. -And although to my knowledge none of the people involved in that -particular incident had threatened the President or were known to us as -threatening the President, I asked Agent Howlett if he would view some -films of this incident that I understood one of the local TV stations -had. - -I was informed of this by a local executive of the local paper who was -on the host committee, that they had such films. And Agent Howlett did -view these and had some still shots made of these individuals, although -we still did not know that they were against President Kennedy or might -harm him in any way. This was an extra on my part. I had asked Agent -Howlett if he had any contact with any individuals, informants in the -area that he might have, that the office might have about rightwing -elements and what they might do, and was told that prior to my arrival -in Dallas they had received some information on some rightwing -activity, and that an investigation had been made, and that he also had -talked to an informant or two I believe. But to their knowledge there -was nothing in the radical-type rightwing movement so-called in the -Dallas area that they knew of that was going to harm President Kennedy. - -Mr. STERN. Did anything else occur? Did you have any discussions of -this problem with the local police? - -Mr. LAWSON. We talked with the local police on many occasions as to -what would happen if there were demonstrations, pickets and so forth, -if they knew of any activity, and I believe S. A. Howlett from the -Dallas office did the same thing. The papers, the newspapers in Dallas -had a few articles on how watchful the police were going to be of the -crowd, with particular emphasis on disturbances or pickets, and some -of the local committee, host committee, as well as some of the local -political groups in the area were worried that perhaps the police -would be overzealous in controlling picketing or disturbances, and -asked me if I could find out just what the police were planning to do -in this event, that there were some wild rumors as to just what the -police were going to do. And because we like to have our local Agents -who have to work with the police in these areas maintain the liaison I -asked Mr. Sorrels if he would contact the chief of police and find out -exactly what they planned to do in relation to picketing, and discussed -the new ordinance that had been passed on the Monday, November 18 I -believe it is, prior to the President's visit. And we were told that -the police would accept peaceful picketing, but that the new ordinance -was strictly to give them some power to act if pickets or individuals -were interfering with lawful assembled groups, if they were trying to -make noise to drown out people who were bona fide speakers at lawful -groups, or if they were trying to interfere with any person entering or -departing a lawful assembly. - -Mr. STERN. Did anything occur in connection with a circular that was -being circulated at the time? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes sir; I learned of a circular which had been distributed -in various parts of the city, blue in color with President Kennedy's -picture on it, and a list of grievances against him called treasonist -to the United States. I was given a copy of the circular in the -police chief's office, and requested Mr. Sorrels, our local agent -in charge--he had received a copy of this circular, and I asked him -to check with the district attorney's office, the Federal district -attorney, to see if it was against the Federal law. At quick reading -myself it didn't look like it was a violation of Federal law but I was -in no position to judge it, and I could see no direct threat. - -Mr. DULLES. What Federal law did you have in mind then? - -Mr. LAWSON. Under our jurisdiction, sir, of protection of the President -and investigation of letters or other threats in connection to the -President. - -Mr. DULLES. This circular that you referred to is this the -advertisement in the papers? - -Mr. LAWSON. No. - -Mr. DULLES. Was this something different? - -Mr. LAWSON. I never saw the advertisement in the paper the morning of -the 22d, and the first knowledge I had of that particular advertisement -was after I had returned from Dallas. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Representative FORD. What page? - -Mr. STERN. Exhibit 4 to the attachment of exhibits. - -Mr. Lawson, I show you a one-page document marked "Commission Exhibit -No. 770" for identification with two photographs of President Kennedy, -and the title "Wanted for Treason." Is this a copy, a photograph of the -circular you have been describing? - -Mr. LAWSON. It is, sir. - -Mr. STERN. May it be admitted? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 770 was received in evidence.) - -Mr. STERN. The newspaper advertisement was a series of questions -addressed to President Kennedy asking why he had done certain things. - -Mr. DULLES. I remember seeing it. Have you any idea as to the number of -these circulars that were distributed, any estimate? - -Mr. LAWSON. No sir; I have no idea how many were put out. They appeared -in certain sections of the city I was told. The police told me they had -no idea who had put them out or when they had been put out, and Mr. -Sorrels said that some had been brought over to his office by the FBI, -which is how he had known about it, and that neither he nor they knew -the source of them. - -Mr. DULLES. And nobody was apprehended or seen in the act of -circulating these. - -Mr. LAWSON. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. DULLES. By any authority as far as you know? - -Mr. LAWSON. That is right. - -Mr. STERN. In respect to questions like what steps are taken to assure -the security of the President on the trip and how to work out liaison -arrangements with local Federal and municipal authorities, what is your -understanding of the division of responsibility between yourself as the -advance agent and the head of the local Secret Service office? - -Mr. LAWSON. The advance agent who goes out from Washington is -responsible for the overall stop, for making the advance arrangements, -and on the day of the movement would have authority over the other -agents at the stop already or the agents accompanying the President, -and of course the agent in charge of the detail coming from Washington -would also have authority naturally over the agents. - -However, he is just arriving in the city probably for the first time, -and the advance agent would have certain knowledge about certain events -and would have more authority than he does in certain respects or he -would ask his advice. So that there is a boss over the agents which -would be the advance agent and also the gentleman in charge of the -detail coming from Washington. The local agent in charge of the local -office assists the advance agent in all of his arrangements in the -territory that is to be visited, and the local agent in charge conducts -such investigations to assist the advance agent, and the local agent in -charge would be in charge of any liaison with local officials, local -police officials. - -Mr. STERN. Insofar as the concern is for persons who might be dangerous -or threatening to the President, the agent in charge of the Dallas -office would be responsible for liaison arrangements with local -authorities but you ultimately would be responsible as the delegate -of the head of the White House detail, for decisions as to what steps -should be taken? - -Mr. LAWSON. That is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. What police powers, if any, can you exercise in that -situation in a sovereign State? - -Mr. LAWSON. I believe the actual police powers as such would only be -in the event of actual knowledge of a threat on the President's life, -anything that we have jurisdiction of. If we hear of an oral threat -or see a written threat on the life of the President or see someone -attempt to take his life, this is our jurisdiction, and we would be -able to act as such. - -Mr. DULLES. You could effect an arrest. - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; however, anything which would fall under the -jurisdiction of the local police such as firearms laws or picketing -laws or disturbances or anything like that we have to depend upon the -local police to use their jurisdiction. - -Mr. McCLOY. Suppose the President is shot and you apprehend the -murderer. Can you arrest him and put him into custody? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; I could arrest him for the shooting of the -President, but it is my understanding actually for the murder, no, but -because he tried to take the life of the President I could. - -Mr. McCLOY. I understand there may be some question, there is a gap in -the law there that it fits no Federal crime. - -Mr. LAWSON. I will have to refer to counsel here as to just where it -stops, when it becomes murder actually where we have no jurisdiction, -and an attempt on the life of the President. - -Mr. DULLES. Let's take a less-clear case. If you suspected Mr. X was -a man who was going to interfere with the President, although he had -committed no overt act, could you move in then or would you call upon -the local police? - -Mr. LAWSON. If he was a suspect, sir, and we had a belief that he might -try to harm the President while he was in Dallas, I would try to assign -a Secret Service agent in conjunction with local police authorities, -to watch him. If it was a function where it was by invitation only or -there was some kind of control as to how the people got in, you would -make sure that he did not get in because you were watchful of the -ticketholders, et cetera. - -However the function was to be handled; if it was a ball park where -anyone could buy a ticket to go in, then we would just have to have the -man watched, or perhaps the local police themselves somehow could keep -him from going to that ball park. But I as an agent could not. - -Mr. DULLES. Even if the President were in attendance in the ball park? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; unless there was some reason that I could have -him arrested, I would not be able to do so. But I would have him -watched if I knew that there might be a threat. - -Mr. DULLES. Am I asking questions that should go to counsel? - -Mr. SMITH. I don't have any disagreement with what Agent Lawson has -said so far. - -Mr. DULLES. Is there not some confusion of jurisdiction though here? - -Mr. McCLOY. Isn't the panel studying this? - -Mr. STERN. We are. - -Mr. McCLOY. That is what I thought. The panel is working on the law. - -Mr. DULLES. You are working on the law? - -Mr. STERN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. You have got all the evidence that you want? - -Mr. STERN. Yes; and there is a large area where Federal jurisdiction -does not exist except on some strained theory of conspiracy. There is -no substantive Federal jurisdiction with respect to great areas. - -Mr. LAWSON. Might I add one thing please. The White House detail agents -are supposed to protect the life of the President wherever he is. -If there is a shot from the crowd or something happens, whether the -President is hit or not, get him away, get him out, and still protect -him. However, if you were riding on a car and actually saw someone do -something, and you were able to get to that individual, you would then -hold that person. But a White House detail agent would not drop the -President and then go look for someone who might have tried to harm him -at the time that he is there. That is not our function. - -Mr. STERN. Turning now to the question of the motorcade route, Mr. -Lawson, what can you tell us about how that was selected? - -Mr. LAWSON. On November 8 when Mr. Kellerman was giving me some of the -information on the proposed trip to Dallas, all of the advance agents -for the respective stops were given the current itinerary as prepared -by the White House staff for their stops, and for the Dallas stop there -was a 45 minute time lapse from the time the President landed at the -airport until the time that he attended the luncheon, and at the time -that I left Washington, it had not been decided whether he would attend -this luncheon at the Trade Mart where it later was planned to have it, -or at the Women's Building on the Fair Grounds. And this figured a -great deal in the parade route, the 45 minutes. - -Mr. STERN. The 45 minute time interval? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Was established for you by the White House? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. And were you specifically instructed to prepare a parade -route or was this your reaction to the time lag? - -Mr. LAWSON. This is my function. I wasn't specifically asked to, but -this would be the function of the advance agent. - -Mr. STERN. Were you instructed that there would be a motorcade? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. And that is what this 45 minutes was for? - -Mr. LAWSON. That is correct. - -Mr. STERN. How was the actual route determined then once the Trade Mart -had been selected as the site for the luncheon? - -Mr. LAWSON. Various routes were under consideration. We could have -gone from the airport direct to the Trade Mart the way that we should -have returned, the 4-mile route returning from the Trade Mart to the -airport, or we could have taken a city street-type route all the -way downtown and all the way back, or we could have taken a freeway -downtown and a freeway back. - -But the route that was chosen was chosen because it was the consensus -of opinion that it was probably the best route under the circumstances. -It allowed us 45 minutes to go from the airport to the Trade Mart at -the speed that I figured the President would go from past experience -with him in advances, and as a regular working agent riding in a -followup car. - -It allowed us to go downtown, which was wanted back in Washington, D.C. -It afforded us wide streets most of the way, because of the buses that -were in the motorcade. It afforded us a chance to have alternative -routes if something happened on the motorcade route. It was the type -of suburban area a good part of the way where the crowds would be able -to be controlled for a great distance, and we figured that the largest -crowds would be downtown, which they were, and that the wide streets -that we would use downtown would be of sufficient width to keep the -public out of our way. Prime consideration in a motorcade is to make -sure the President isn't stopped unless he plans it himself. You must -have room to maneuver, alternative routes to turn off from, room for -buses and so forth, and particularly room to keep the public out of the -street. - -Mr. STERN. What was the extent of your review of the parade route with -the local police? - -Mr. LAWSON. With the local police I went over the entire route on one -occasion, went to the various stops at other times and so actually did -parts of the route at that time, the part of the route which would be -near the stop like the airport and the Trade Mart. But the actual route -I went over with two police officers from the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. McCLOY. By went over you mean you actually drove along the entire -route? - -Mr. LAWSON. We drove it sir, with them taking notes, and them making -suggestions and Mr. Sorrels and I making suggestions. - -Mr. STERN. To what extent did they actually participate in the decision -that this be the route? - -Mr. LAWSON. They were asked their advice on possible routes that you -could go to the Trade Mart. - -Mr. STERN. And they had no disagreement with the route---- - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. That was actually selected, no criticism of it? What -arrangements did you make with the Dallas police for security along the -route, starting from Love Field and getting to the Trade Mart? - -Mr. LAWSON. A good deal of it was traffic control, both to keep people -out of our path as the motorcade progressed so that they would have at -least the major intersections covered and as many of the other ones as -possible. Those which were not, all intersections that were not able to -be controlled physically by a policeman or more than one policeman were -to be controlled by motorcycles that would hop-skip the motorcade, or -other police vehicles in the motorcade. - -At certain times certain intersections were to be cutoff as we -proceeded so that it would allow time for any traffic ahead of us to -clear the area before we arrived there. Where it was felt from past -experience and the type of area that we were passing through there -would be large crowds, more police were requested for along the route, -and on the routes. - -Mr. STERN. Foot policemen or motorcycle patrolmen? - -Mr. LAWSON. Both, sir. They were requested at the corners to have more -than one policeman, so that there would be policemen for watching the -crowd and controlling the crowd, and other policemen who would have -jurisdiction over the traffic in the area, so that someone wouldn't be -watching the crowd and a car going by him or vice versa. We saw the -underpasses or overpasses or bridges that were on the route, and they -were requested to have officers, depending on the type of installation -there that I just mentioned, the type that it was, either under it or -over it, on the underpasses. The railroad lines were checked and here -was no rail traffic of a scheduled nature over the two rail crossings -that we would pass, none on the way in but two on the way out. - -However, just to make sure that a switch engine or other trains -wouldn't come along about the time we were due there, and then stop -the President's motorcade, why we had police stationed at the railroad -crossings that were on the same level as the road. - -Mr. STERN. What were the instructions that you asked be given to the -police who were stationed on overpasses and railroad crossings? - -Mr. LAWSON. They were requested to keep the people to the sides of -the bridge or the overpass so that--or underpass--so that people -viewing from a vantage point like that would not be directly over the -President's car so that they could either inadvertently knock something -off or drop something on purpose or do some other kind of harm. - -Mr. STERN. This is all people, not just outside members of the public? - -Mr. LAWSON. Any citizen that was trying to view the motorcade, they -were to be kept from right directly over the President's car, if it was -a bridge or an underpass. - -Mr. STERN. What about the deployment of police on rooftops of buildings -at any point along the route? - -Mr. LAWSON. We had--police were requested at points where I knew that -the President would be out of the car for any length of time. - -Mr. STERN. And where was that? - -Mr. LAWSON. At the Trade Mart and at the airport. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I interrupt at this point. During the course of the -motorcade while the motorcade was in motion, no matter how slowly, you -had no provision for anyone on the roofs? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Or no one to watch the windows? - -Mr. LAWSON. Oh, yes. The police along the area were to watch the crowds -and their general area. The agents riding in the followup car as well -as myself in the lead car were watching the crowds and the windows and -the rooftops as we progressed. - -Mr. McCLOY. It was part of your routine duties when you were going -through a street in any city, to look at the windows as well as the -crowds? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; and if the President's car slowed to such a point -or the crowd ever pressed in to such a point that people are getting -too close to the President, the agents always get out and go along the -car. - -Mr. STERN. Perhaps you had better describe the vehicles and passengers -in the motorcade beginning with the pilot car and going, say, through -the Vice Presidential followup car. - -Mr. LAWSON. At one time I could have probably listed them all by name. - -Mr. STERN. No, not their names, but the vehicle order. - -Mr. LAWSON. The vehicle itself, yes sir. - -Mr. STERN. And the agents, the number of agents. - -Mr. LAWSON. And the function of the vehicle. - -Mr. STERN. And the function of the vehicle and the responsibility of -the agents in the vehicle. - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes sir. This varies, but in a usual motorcade, as in this -particular instance, there is what we call a pilot car. This is usually -a local police car that precedes the motorcade some distance, depending -on the crowd. It would usually precede it by at least a quarter of a -mile. This is to see if there is any kind of a disturbance up ahead -far enough so that we are able to take an alternate route if the need -arises. It being a police car, it has radio communications with the -whole network of the police and also the police at the stops, the ones -we have just left and the particular function like the Trade Mart or -airport that we are going to. - -In this car ride a few command officers of the local police department, -and it is their job to make sure that the traffic is stopped as it was -planned to be, look out for any disturbances, and in general be a front -guard for the motorcade. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you have a communications system with the Secret Service -agents for this pilot car? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; because the next car in the motorcade is what we -call a lead car and it is actually a rolling command car. We try to -have a command officer from every jurisdiction of police with a radio -net of their own in that vehicle. Sometimes if you are in an area -where there are State police and local police and sheriff's and quite -a few jurisdictions, where it is a long motorcade and you are going -through various counties you are not able to have a command officer of -every jurisdiction in that. - -But in Dallas the lead ear, the car that I was in directly ahead of the -President was a police car, and of course it had a radio that was in -contact with the pilot car and any other radio on the police net. In -addition to that, I had a portable radio on the Secret Service White -House network. - -Mr. McCLOY. Was there a Secret Service agent riding in the pilot car? - -Mr. LAWSON. No sir; there was not. - -Mr. McCLOY. The first Secret Service agent was---- - -Mr. LAWSON. In the lead car. - -Mr. McCLOY. Was in the lead car. I don't know whether you want to--I -have got to leave. Are you going to ask why they didn't go down Main -Street? - -Mr. STERN. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. Take care of that. The suggestion was made yesterday--you -are going to cover that? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Representative FORD. I would like if I might to follow up with a -question which you asked a minute ago on the record. As I recall your -testimony, Mr. Lawson, you indicated that the police who were assigned -along the route had the responsibility to check windows and the crowd. -Is that what you indicated? - -Mr. LAWSON. And also the agents as they went by; yes sir. It wouldn't -be just a police responsibility; no, sir. - -Representative FORD. How did the police know they had that -responsibility? - -Mr. LAWSON. In our police meetings, of which we had three or four -listed in here, we talked about crowd control and watching the crowd, -and of course the agents just do that anyway. That is part of their -function. And in the newspaper accounts it said how watchful the police -were going to be of all kinds of activity, and actually they requested -public assistance, as I recall it, anyone that noticed anything unusual -they had asked that they notify the police. - -Representative FORD. When you meet with police officials, in this case -Chief Curry, Sheriff Decker, and who else, is this clearly laid out -that the members of their organization have the specific responsibility -of checking windows? Do you followup to see whether this is actually -put in writing to the members of the police force, and the Sheriff's -department? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I do not followup to see if it was put in writing. - -Mr. DULLES. You mean an external check don't you? You don't mean going -through each building? - -Representative FORD. No. As I understood it, policemen have the -responsibility to check windows and to look at the crowd, and I was -just wondering whether there is any followup to be sure that the chief -of police and the sheriff or anybody else actually makes this specific -communication to the people in their organizations. - -Mr. LAWSON. In this particular instance there was not. Sometimes on my -own advances I have received copies of police directives. Sometimes -this is covered and sometimes there are other directives. This is not -normal though. It is just that the police say "Here is a copy of one -of our orders." Sometimes it is the posting of police, sometimes it -is that. In Berlin where I was assisting on an advance for President -Kennedy's trip in June, we received all kinds of information of this -type, even to the fact where the police had requested anyone to notify -them of anyone that tried to gain entry into their room that didn't -belong there, if it was a business office or if it was a private home -or if all of a sudden they discovered they had a friend that they never -knew they had before and all that. But this is not always done. - -Mr. McCLOY. I want to get it clear. In your presence, in the -instructions to the police in Dallas, did you tell the police to keep -their eye on windows as you went along? - -Mr. LAWSON. I cannot say definitely that I told the police to watch -windows. I usually do. On this particular case I cannot say whether I -definitely said that. I believe I did, but I would not swear to the -fact that I said watch all the windows. - -Mr. McCLOY. I have heard it rumored that there was a general routine -in the Secret Service that when you were going through in a motorcade -or by car, that the problem of watching windows was so great that -you didn't do it. It was only as you came to a stop that it was the -standing instructions that then roofs should be watched and places of -advantage would be inspected or looked at. Is that true? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; the agents in the motorcade are to watch the route -and the rooftops and the windows as they can. Of course there were -thousands of windows there, over 20,000 I believe on that motorcade. -But agents are supposed to watch as they go along. - -Representative FORD. An advance agent such as yourself goes to talk -with local police officials? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Do you have a checklist? Do you have a procedure -in writing that you hand to a local law enforcement agent so that he is -clear as to the responsibilities of himself and his people? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I have no checklist, although myself I have a -number of things that I have marked down from past advances and seeing -what other individuals do that I usually try to follow. - -However, every situation is so different. Sometimes there are -motorcades and sometimes there are not, and it just wouldn't fit every -situation. - -Representative FORD. But there is no specific list of instructions that -the Secret Service gives to a local law enforcement agency? - -Mr. LAWSON. No. - -Representative FORD. At the time of the Presidential visit? - -Mr. LAWSON. No. - -Representative FORD. Do you think that it would be helpful? - -Mr. LAWSON. It would be helpful in a general way. And it could be -augmented to fit the situation. - -Representative FORD. In other words, if you had general instructions -you could give those to the local law enforcement people, and as you -say, for special circumstances, or different circumstances, you could -augment them at the scene? - -Mr. LAWSON. I believe it would be helpful. For example, I know that -New York police have, because we were up there so often, and I just -returned from there yesterday, they have a checklist of their own in -the police meetings with the Secret Service that they go over, what -time the arrival is, where he is going to be met, is it a motorcade, is -it a helicopter, et cetera. But still there are many more things that -should be in there. - -Representative FORD. But I would think for every Presidential visit -there would be certain mandatory things that would have to be done, -areas of responsibility of Federal officials, areas of responsibility -for local officials. - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Such a memorandum or checklist I should think -would be helpful in defining the areas of responsibility, being certain -that there is no misunderstanding as to whose responsibility it is for -A, B, C, or D operations. - -Mr. LAWSON. I agree. - -Mr. STERN. Were any arrangements made to inspect buildings along the -parade route? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; other than those buildings that we were stopping -at. - -Mr. STERN. And this would be? - -Mr. LAWSON. The Trade Mart. - -Mr. STERN. And Love Field? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Is it recognized in your business, if it is a fact, that -a building that affords a window that looks down parallel with the -motorcade is an unusually vulnerable point? Do you get the trend of my -question? - -Mr. McCLOY. Parallel rather that at right angles? - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. LAWSON. I know that there are some windows that are more vulnerable -than others, let's say. - -Mr. DULLES. That give a more vulnerable point of attack? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; if you were going in a motorcade at 50 or -60 miles an hour and then all of sudden there was some reason why -something narrowed down and you had to slow up or you knew there was -going to be a big crowd here and the President would probably slow his -vehicle like he usually did for big crowds and stand up and wave, then -you would be more concerned about those windows in that area than other -areas. This motorcade to my knowledge, we went 15 or 20 miles an hour -through most of it except the downtown section at about 7 or 10. - -Mr. McCLOY. 10 or 7 did you say? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; 7 to 10 miles an hour. - -Mr. DULLES. In this case I assume that if anyone had been looking at -windows, the car that would have seen the rifle and the man would have -been a car several cars back from the President's car, is that not -correct? - -Mr. McCLOY. It might have been the other. - -Representative FORD. The testimony of one of these young men that we -had, if it is accurate, I would have thought that the lead car might -have seen the Book Depository. - -Mr. STERN. We will hear testimony from another passenger in the lead -car, Mr. Sorrels, who was in charge of the Dallas Secret Service -Office, that as the car turned from Houston onto Elm, he saw people -in the windows of the School Book Depository Building. He cannot -recall seeing anyone on the sixth floor, and it is more likely that -he saw people on the fifth floor from his descriptions. He saw some -Negro employees. But he could see from the lead car people in the Book -Depository Building as it came in view around the corner. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you see anybody in the School Book Depository? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; at this point just as we started around that -corner I asked Chief Curry if it was not true that we were probably -5 minutes from the Trade Mart, and it is quite usual to make a radio -call to your next point of stop that you are 5 minutes away. Therefore -right about the time we turned that corner and were a little ways past -it, I am sure I was speaking on the radio, because the White House -Communications Agency has about the time I gave the 5 minutes away -warning signal, and within seconds after that the shots were fired. - -Representative FORD. As you came or as the lead car came down Houston -Street---- - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. You were facing the Texas School Depository? - -Mr. LAWSON. Right. - -Representative FORD. Did you look at or scan that building? - -Mr. LAWSON. I do not, no, because part of my job is to look backwards -at the President's car. The speed of the motorcade is controlled by -the President's car, unless is it is an emergency situation. If he -stands up and is waving at the crowd and there are quite a few crowds -then, of course, the car goes slower. If the density of the crowd is -quite scarce or there is a time factor why you are going faster. So -the person in the lead car in this rolling command car usually keeps -turning around and watching the President's car. If his car comes up -on our bumper that means we are not going fast enough and we should go -faster, and you tell the command officer to call the motorcycles, the -pilot car, et cetera, to move out faster. If you notice that his car is -dropping back from you, that means their car wants to go slower and you -do the same thing in reverse. So I was watching the crowds along the -sides, requesting Chief Curry to move motorcycles up or back, depending -on the crowd, move them up towards the President's car because at -certain times people were almost out to the car, and to use them as -kind of a wedge. Other times they were able to drop back or go forward, -so that I was looking back a good deal of the time, watching his car, -watching the sides, watching the crowds, giving advice or asking -advice from the Chief and also looking ahead to the known hazards like -overpasses, underpasses, railroads, et cetera. - -Representative FORD. But as the lead car turned from Main onto Houston -and proceeded toward Elm, you were more preoccupied with looking at the -President? - -Mr. LAWSON. I don't know whether I was looking sideways or backwards -then, but I do recall noticing the Book Depository Building and that -corner and then deciding that we must be about 5 minutes away, and -asking Chief Curry if this was not so and then making a radio broadcast. - -Representative FORD. So as you drove down Houston Street, you didn't -have an opportunity to look at the Texas School Depository? - -Mr. LAWSON. I may have, but I don't remember if I saw this. I was doing -so many things all at once. - -Representative FORD. What was Sorrels' responsibility at this point? - -Mr. LAWSON. His responsibility would be again to watch the crowds and -the windows a little bit more than I because it was my responsibility -to be watching the Presidential car. - -Mr. STERN. He was sitting in the rear right, was he not? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; and I was in the right front. - -Representative FORD. He didn't have the responsibility of looking back -like you did? - -Mr. LAWSON. Not as much as I would have; no, sir. - -Representative FORD. In light of the problem of trying to have -individuals in numerous buildings, inspecting the buildings and so -forth, is it desirable to have more people in another car ahead of the -lead car for the purpose of scanning buildings? - -Mr. LAWSON. Giving a personal opinion now, I would say that that would -be a good factor. However, if someone stayed back from the window until -you went by and then stuck his gun out the window, why it might not be -as good. - -Representative FORD. It wouldn't be any worse. - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; but if they did see something that wasn't a likely -occurrence, then they could broadcast over the radio stop the President -or turn right or turn left. - -Representative FORD. But as I understand your responsibilities in the -lead car, it doesn't appear that you had an opportunity to do the -scanning? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. Which was necessary. - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I would not. - -Representative FORD. So you are really left up to one individual in the -lead car in the Secret Service for that purpose? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes. - -Representative FORD. I raise the question whether that is adequate for -the overall purpose. - -Mr. SMITH. Sir, I don't want to interfere with the procedures but could -I ask a question off the record? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. McCLOY. I think you might go on the record with this. There has -been some question as to whether we are referring directly only to the -lead car or whether to all the personnel in the cavalcade. I gather, -Mr. Ford, you were referring to the personnel in the lead car as -distinguished from the other Secret Service personnel and other police -in the motorcade as a whole? - -Representative FORD. That is correct. I am cognizant of the fact we -have a followup car. What are the responsibilities of those in the -followup car? - -Mr. McCLOY. By followup car do you mean the President's car because -there will be Secret Service men in the President's car too? - -Representative FORD. There was only one on this occasion, or two, the -driver and Mr. Kellerman. The driver was certainly preoccupied, and -as I remember Mr. Kellerman's testimony, he was so engaged he didn't -have an opportunity to do the kind of scanning that would appear to be -necessary. So whatever scanning there was done by either the lead car -or the Presidential car or the followup car primarily had to be done by -the people in the followup car. Is that a fair analysis? - -Mr. LAWSON. I don't recall if you mentioned the pilot car, but they -would have had an opportunity in the pilot car to do some scanning. - -Representative FORD. But there are no Secret Service people there. - -Mr. LAWSON. No Secret Service people in that one. - -Mr. McCLOY. There would be Secret Service men in the Vice Presidential -car, and of course there is the Secret Service car that follows the -Presidential car, all through the route there are interspersed Secret -Service men. - -Mr. DULLES. It must have been the third or fourth or fifth car in the -motorcade that was right opposite the window at the time the assassin -put the rifle well out of the window and shot. - -Mr. McCLOY. Why do you say that? - -Mr. DULLES. The shooting took place when the President's car was -somewhere here (indicating to photograph of scene). It had made the -turn, you see. Here is the building. Now there is the window up here -roughly. He didn't shoot here. They went around the turn and were down -here. There was a barricade there. There was something there that -obstructed the view you will remember. - -Mr. McCLOY. That is the sign here like this. - -Mr. DULLES. It would be down that far. - -Mr. McCLOY. It might have been there. - -Mr. DULLES. As close as that? Whatever it was, the car that was right -opposite the window and going in this direction at that time must have -been the fourth or fifth car--the car which had the best view of the -assassination. You wouldn't be looking I shouldn't think, if you were -in a car here, you wouldn't be looking back there. You would be looking -off here and off here for protection. - -I should think that car in this strange situation, where he was -shooting right down the street--isn't that correct? I don't know if you -have ever followed that up. I don't know what car it is. It is some -car along here, though, that would have been right opposite the window -at the time the shooting took place, not one of the lead cars or the -President's car. - -Mr. STERN. By these cars you mean, sir---- - -Mr. DULLES. In the motorcade. Some of these down here. It might have -been even the wire services or the press cars. I don't know how many -cars but I think from our photographs we ought to be able to identify -that. - -Representative FORD. A man named Jackson who was a photographer in one -of the cars with photographers is an individual who identified the fact -that somebody was in that window with a rifle as I recall. - -Mr. DULLES. He was in one of the press cars was he? - -Representative FORD. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. The wire service car is the seventh car including the lead -police vehicle. Well, the lead car, if you count the lead car, six, the -sixth car. - -Representative FORD. He testified as I recall that the car in which he -was--was halfway down the block between Main and Elm at the time that -he looked up and saw the building and saw people in windows. - -Mr. DULLES. This is Houston and this is Elm. Houston and Elm isn't it, -not Main. Main and Elm, or yes. - -Representative FORD. However, the time span between the time that the -lead car, the President's car and the followup car came down Houston -and turned down Elm is a relatively short period of time. - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. By the way, at what speed were you going as you came around -the turn and into Elm Street? You said 7 to 10 downtown. Would it be -about the same speed there? - -Mr. LAWSON. I imagine it was a little faster at this time, sir, because -the downtown section where it was quite heavily populated with people -watching the motorcade, we had been out of that for a while before we -got to the Houston Street turn. So we were probably back up to perhaps -12 or 15 miles an hour by then. - -Mr. McCLOY. But you would have had to slow up a bit coming around the -curve. - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Lawson, can you tell us why you didn't plan the -motorcade so that it went straight down Main Street to turn right on to -the entrance to the freeway instead of taking this dogleg on Houston -and Elm? - -Mr. DULLES. Jerry, will you take over. - -Representative FORD. Will you proceed please, Mr. Stern? - -Mr. STERN. Yes. - -Mr. LAWSON. You mean why we didn't come straight down Main Street to -the Stemmons Freeway? - -Mr. STERN. Right. - -Mr. LAWSON. Because it is my understanding there isn't any entrance to -the freeway on Main Street. - -Mr. STERN. But you don't yourself recall now or do you? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, I was told that there wasn't any entrance that way, -and I myself once when I went to the Trade Mart, not knowing that there -was any entrance to it, went down Main Street. You must enter the -freeway going in the direction that we wanted to go from the Elm Street -extension. - -Mr. STERN. When you went down Main Street you found that you could not -get on to the entrance to the Stemmons Freeway? - -Mr. LAWSON. Going the direction on the freeway towards the Trade Mart, -that is correct. - -Mr. STERN. Which is the direction the motorcade was to go? - -Mr. LAWSON. Was to go; yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Have you ever had occasion to provide for building checks -along a motorcade route when you were doing an advance, or is it just -never done? This is as of the time of Dallas. - -Mr. LAWSON. I have never had an advance where I had buildings checked -on our route. - -Mr. STERN. It is not a question---- - -Mr. LAWSON. On a moving route. - -Mr. STERN. It is not a question of your instructions? You could if you -wanted to, I take it? It is just a matter of your discretion and your -training, is that correct? - -Mr. LAWSON. I don't believe it is discretion. It is just that to my -knowledge only inaugurations or when a foreign president or king -comes to Washington, like that where it is a motorcade route known -practically for years in advance of how you are going to go do we -check, start out with enough men, enough time ahead of time to check -the whole route up to that time. - -Mr. DULLES. Is there any practice of going to the superintendent -of a building and putting any responsibility on him to see that -strangers don't come into the building at that time, or assuming any -responsibility at all with respect to the inmates of the building? I -don't know what the practices are. - -Mr. LAWSON. As I stated, sir, there was for inaugurations here in -Washington--we have done building surveys of buildings that overlook -the White House, that overlook the grounds, that overlook areas where -the President goes quite often or where he might be out or something -like that. Yes, sir; we keep those quite up to date. Out on a trip away -from Washington, I have never requested building superintendents to do -this. This was not the usual practice. - -Mr. SMITH. May I ask a question there, sir. Is any of that information -that you just gave the type of thing that is not supposed to be known -publicly? I just don't know how necessary this is to the record, I mean -about checking the buildings around the White House and so on. Is there -anything about that that is sensitive? - -Mr. LAWSON. I would assume that most of the people thought that we did. - -Representative FORD. I think that is the general impression. - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SMITH. I can check on that. If there is something in there I might -want to come back on. - -Representative FORD. I think as far as we are concerned if you do check -on it and find that it is something that ought to be left off the -record we could certainly do so. - -Mr. DULLES. It might be declassified as a whole or lower the -classification, so I think it is well to put in the record what you -have said, that this part of the record should be reviewed by the -Secret Service, and if it is a security matter I think they ought to -raise it. I don't think we want to ever disclose anything that the -responsible agency thinks would imperil the life of any President. - -Mr. SMITH. I have in mind what he said and I will check on it right -away. Unless I come back and make some point about it, why you can rest -assured that there will be no problem. - -Representative FORD. Will you call the attention of the Commission to -what you find out, whether it should or should not be in the record? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, I will. May I tell Mr. Stern? - -Representative FORD. Surely. - -Mr. STERN. Were you aware of a suggestion that a vehicle with -representatives of the Dallas homicide squad be in the motorcade, I -believes behind the Vice President's car, a decision that was changed -just before November 22? - -Can you tell us anything about that? - -Mr. LAWSON. I believe I recall some mention of them asking--I don't -remember if they asked if there should be a car or not but I believe -there was some mention that there be a car, that they could have a car -in the back there. This was not usual procedure. In New York it is, and -on foreign trips it is. - -Mr. DULLES. I understood that car was to be between the lead car I -think and the President's car, was it not, or is it between--no, -between the lead car and the President's car. - -Mr. STERN. I haven't yet seen the transcript of yesterday's session, -sir, and I am not quite sure. - -Representative FORD. My recollection is that it was to follow the -President's car, either behind the followup car or behind the Vice -President's car. - -Mr. DULLES. We can check that. It is somewhere in there. I have a -feeling it was ahead of the President's car but I may be wrong. - -Mr. STERN. I understand we have been advised that at one point there -was such an arrangement and that this was changed, and that Captain -Fritz, the head of the Homicide Division, who was to ride in that car, -went instead at someone's request to the Trade Mart where he was to -participate in security at the speaker's table. Do you know anything -about that? - -Mr. LAWSON. I remember it being mentioned. Whether it was a request or -whether they had already laid it on I do not know, but I do remember it -being mentioned that they could have a car if it was so desired. - -Mr. STERN. If they desired? - -Mr. LAWSON. I don't recall if it was that they would put it in if we -wanted it or if they said that they definitely would put it in or what. - -But it was mentioned, and I hadn't thought of this since. That is why -I am a little hazy on it. But I don't know even who cancelled it, -whether they did or whether we had just said well it is not the normal -procedure so that they did. But as far as Captain Fritz going to the -Trade Mart, I don't know anything about that. - -Mr. STERN. But you did say, I take it, it is normal procedure in New -York? - -Mr. LAWSON. In New York, New York has a special squad of people. One -of their main functions is protection of foreign dignitaries when -they come to visit the U.N. or for any other reason. These people are -used---- - -Mr. DULLES. Do we give more protection to foreign dignitaries than we -do to our own Chief of State? - -Mr. LAWSON. Is that a question for me? - -Mr. DULLES. That is a question. - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I don't believe we do. I don't believe the -security, the advance security arrangements, are quite as stringent. - -Mr. STERN. This New York procedure is something you have worked out -with the New York authorities? - -Mr. LAWSON. I am not aware of the policy arrangements that were made. -I do know that there is a detective car used in New York quite often -filled with this special detail of men. - -Mr. STERN. Do they have a special responsibility in the motorcade? - -Mr. LAWSON. They act as Secret Service agents act in the motorcade. -They help out if there is a stop and we need extra men and so forth. -But I am not aware of why they are there. It wasn't my decision that -they be there. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question right there. Whose duty is it, -whose responsibility is it to decide how many of these cars will be in -the motorcade, how many protective cars let me say? I am not speaking -of cars for dignitaries or press and so forth, but how many protective -cars are in a motorcade? Does the Secret Service decide that or do -the local police decide it to some extent or do you decide it in -consultation? - -Mr. LAWSON. We have our usual motorcade, and usually it is in -consultation. They take our recommendations quite frankly. - -Mr. DULLES. Have you been giving any consideration to reviewing that -procedure to see whether the existing procedure is the best from the -protective angle? - -Have you any suggestions to give us on that? - -Mr. LAWSON. I believe that the chief's office is, but I am not in a -position to say what they are going to do. - -Mr. DULLES. I think it would be interesting if that was being done. -Maybe it should be done, just to have a good look at it. If you could -advise us as to whether that is under consideration, it might be -helpful. - -Representative FORD. I think it was my understanding that the Treasury -Department is making a review of this whole setup, are they not? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, I understand so. I understand that we have discussed -with the Chief Justice an arrangement, sort of a question and answer -thing to begin with on this because of the sensitive nature of this -information, to see if adequate information for your purposes can be -developed that way, and then at that point or at some point in the -future it will be decided how this question of the review and new -procedures will be handled. That is my understanding of it. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. SMITH. I am Fred B. Smith, Deputy General Counsel of the Treasury -Department. - -Representative FORD. Will you stand and be sworn. - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give is the truth, -the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? - -Mr. SMITH. I do. - -Mr. DULLES. I wonder if the witness would just repeat. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. STERN. On the record. - -Representative FORD. Would you repeat what you indicated a moment ago, -Mr. Smith? - -Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I have been informed that an arrangement was -worked out with the Chief Justice with respect to the question of -improving procedures for the protection of the President that certain -information would be provided in the form of questions and answers, -and that after that procedure had been fulfilled, consideration would -be given as to such questions as the necessity of further testimony on -such questions and appropriate security arrangements with respect to -such information. - -This is on hearsay. I haven't been involved in that myself. I would -like to ask Mr. Stern if that is in accordance with his understanding. - -Mr. STERN. It is my understanding. - -Mr. DULLES. If it is appropriate I suggest that maybe this question of -the number of protective cars in a motorcade of this nature might be -one of the questions you would be willing to consider, or whoever is -considering this matter would be willing to include among the subjects -of consideration. - -Representative FORD. Will you proceed, Mr. Stern. - -Mr. STERN. I would like to finish on this special New York practice -with you, Mr. Lawson. If an incident were to occur during a motorcade -in New York, is it your understanding that the responsibility of these -New York officials, detectives, would be to investigate the incident or -to stay with the motorcade as the Secret Service would? - -Mr. LAWSON. I am afraid I couldn't answer that. I don't know. - -Mr. STERN. Is there something special about the New York circumstances -that makes it desirable to have these additional detectives that you -don't ordinarily have? - -Mr. LAWSON. Again I don't know. I conceive myself personally--where we -go through quite often--I believe there are more people in the State of -New York than there are in Billings, Mont., and you might have more of -a chance of something occurring in New York. But again I don't know -why it is in New York and not usual in other places. - -Mr. STERN. Was the organization of the motorcade in Dallas typical, -apart from New York? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes. Quite typical. - -Mr. STERN. Would it be the same in Billings, Mont., or would you have -additional strength in the motorcade in Dallas? - -Mr. LAWSON. As far as escorting people, there were more people in -Dallas. - -Mr. STERN. More celebrities? - -Mr. LAWSON. No; by escorting people I meant motorcycles or something -like that. Again it depends on where you are, even if they have -motorcycles or how many they have. But the makeup of the motorcade -vehicles itself, again depending on who is coming and how many cars -you have is pretty generally the same. A pilot car, a lead car, the -President's car, motorcycles if you have them, some motorcycles if you -have them along the side of the motorcade to help keep it intact or if -it gets split up as it has on occasion to be able to catch them up and -rear vehicles to keep them from passing the motorcade, et cetera. - -Mr. STERN. And the one Presidential followup car. - -Mr. LAWSON. And the Secret Service followup car; yes, sir. This was my -first movement with the President and the Vice President all at the -same time. That was quite out of the ordinary. - -Mr. STERN. And there you added a Vice-Presidential followup car? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Performing the same function as the Presidential followup? - -Mr. LAWSON. That is correct. - -Mr. STERN. But apart from the motorcycles, I take it if you had been in -Billings, Mont., the organization of the motorcade would have been the -same; is that correct? - -Mr. LAWSON. Just about the same; yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. I would like to touch briefly on the selection of the Trade -Mart and the security measures there, having in mind that your three -memorandums cover this in great detail. If you could just highlight -and indicate if in any respect your memorandums are inaccurate or -incomplete. The record will rely primarily on your memorandums. - -Mr. LAWSON. I don't know of any incorrectness in it. There might be. - -Mr. STERN. Or any detail that you would want to add? - -Mr. LAWSON. No; I can't. If you have some specific questions. - -Mr. STERN. Why don't you just summarize then how the Trade Mart was -selected, your participation in it, the consideration of alternatives, -the decision ultimately to use the Trade Mart, whether you had any -particular preference between the Trade Mart and the other building -that was considered. Take that part of it first. - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. The morning after we arrived in Dallas, late in -the morning, we, Mr. Sorrels and Mr. Puterbaugh and myself and another -agent from Dallas, Agent Stewart, went to Mr. Cullum's office who is -the president of the Dallas Chamber of Commerce, a local businessman -who was acting as subcommittee chairman I guess for the local host -committee. - -Mr. STERN. I don't think we need this much detail because we have your -memorandum. If you could just tell us in general terms where you went -and the considerations. - -Mr. LAWSON. Some of us went to Mr. Cullum's office and after talking -with him there for a while we went to the Trade Mart, met with -representatives of the Trade Mart, the general manager of the Trade -Mart, and were shown generally around the building, told how they -usually handled luncheons or dinners or dances that are held there. - -Mr. STERN. Were there particular security problems that the Trade Mart -presented? - -Mr. LAWSON. There were balconies there and also it was a building that -would be used by other people that day. However, this is somewhat good -because it wasn't exactly a public building where anyone could wander -in. The lessees of the showrooms there or their customers have to be -checked in. You either have to be a lessee or a bona fide customer of -a showroom in order to even get in the building. They have kind of a -semisecurity of their own that way. So it was good in that respect. -There were hanging bridges and balconies, as I have said, side -corridors and what not. After we left there, we went to the Women's -Building at the fairgrounds, to look that over, and in this particular -case the food would have had to have been brought in because there -isn't any kitchen there, which was a plus at the Trade Mart. They had -a regular cafeteria there and a catering service, which the Women's -Building didn't have. The Women's Building is on one floor, quite low -ceilinged, and the press coverage that is usually quite in evidence -when the President is anywhere, both from the traveling press with him -and the local press would have required their usual press coverage, and -it would not have been as good in the Women's Building, because of the -low ceilings. - -They usually like to be up at least as high as the President or higher, -1, 2, or 3 feet. So we could put them in a balcony at the Trade Mart -but we could not do so, at least get them any higher because of the -low roof at the Women's Building. There were numerous columns in the -Women's Building that would have blocked everybody's view of the people -at the head dinner table, guests, and the guests there. So there were -pluses and minuses for both buildings, and I so informed people in -Washington and Mr. Puterbaugh informed people in Washington also. - -Representative FORD. Who made the decision as to the Trade Mart or the -Women's Building at the fairgrounds? - -Mr. LAWSON. That was made in Washington, sir. - -Representative FORD. By whom, do you know? - -Mr. LAWSON. I am assuming by the White House. I know that Mr. -Puterbaugh was in contact with the National Democratic Headquarters -people, and they were in contact with the White House and with the -various groups down in Texas, the Governor's office as well. When the -decision was finally made, we were told that it had been made but not -to tell anyone yet because the announcement would come probably from -the Governor's office. - -Representative FORD. Do you make a report in writing in this kind of -a situation, the relative advantages and disadvantages of the two -buildings? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. From a security point of view? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. How do the people in Washington make the decisions -then? - -Mr. LAWSON. Mr. Puterbaugh told the people he was in contact with and I -told Mr. Behn's office what I saw. - -Mr. STERN. Who is Mr. Behn? - -Mr. LAWSON. Mr. Behn is the agent in charge of the White House detail. -What I saw in both buildings. As I say the decision was made back here -in Washington. - -Representative FORD. You summarized your views on this kind of a -situation to Mr. Behn? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Who is your superior. By telephone, not in writing? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. Is this the case in all instances? - -Mr. LAWSON. Well, it usually doesn't happen. Usually I know when you -are going some place if the function is to be at the Statler Hotel or -something like that. - -Representative FORD. Do you know whether or not Mr. Behn made any -recommendations on this? - -Mr. LAWSON. I have no idea. - -Representative FORD. You gave him your observations and your -recommendations? - -Mr. LAWSON. I don't know if I gave it to him. I gave his office. Now -there were at that time two assistants. - -Representative FORD. Did you make a recommendation one over the other? - -Mr. LAWSON. No; I did not. I said that I was sure we could effectively -handle both situations. Again the motorcade was to be taken into -consideration also. If you went to the Trade Mart you would have -certain ways to go and if you went to the Women's Building you would -have certain ways to go. And so they had to decide, someone had -to decide whether they wanted the Trade Mart or certain motorcade -specifications also, in the 45 minute time lapse. - -Mr. STERN. On the basis of your experience, if you had had a strong -preference from a security point of view for one building over the -other do you think that would have been followed in this case? - -Mr. LAWSON. I could have only told them what I thought, and how much -weight it would have had I don't know. - -Mr. STERN. Can you tell us roughly the total number of police, -sheriff's office officials, and Secret Service agents that were engaged -in protecting the President in Dallas and break them down if you can as -between people at the Trade Mart, people on the motorcade route, people -at Love Field? - -Mr. LAWSON. I can give you what I was told was going to--that the -police were going to provide but I won't be able to tell you exactly -what they did provide, and also inform you that I was told that certain -police were going to be shifted from one spot to another. I understood -that as we went by a certain part of the motorcade some of those police -then would be shifted perhaps over to the motorcade route on the way -back in the intervening 1-1/2 or 2 hours that would still elapse. And I -have that in my report if I can turn to it. - -Mr. STERN. Yes; why don't you tell us in total numbers at each location. - -Mr. LAWSON. But again I cannot tell you if these police figures, being -the ones that they gave me, show that these are the same amount of men -that were shifted or if these are separate men, because they were going -to use part on the motorcade and shift them to another spot. - -Now, whether that would double it or what I do not know. At the Trade -Mart 108, and I believe this includes out in the parking lots and on -there. That doesn't mean they were inside the Trade Mart. Along the -Route 90. And escorts 20. Love Field 55, cruising 100. - -Mr. STERN. Cruising? - -Mr. LAWSON. Chief Curry said that naturally they have the rest of the -city to protect and we can't go in and take every policeman that they -have so that someone knows that all the police are going to be involved -and it would be easier to commit certain crimes. But in addition to his -regular police coverage of police cars throughout the city, there were -also going to be some other police cars fairly close to our motorcade -area, so that they could be called in if they had to be. - -Mr. STERN. I see. - -Mr. LAWSON. Detectives, 40; department of public safety uniformed, 40; -rangers, 5; plainclothes, 16; Dallas County Sheriff Department, 14; -fire department, 26; the White House detail agents, 20; agents from the -Vice President's detail, 4; agents from the Dallas office, 4. - -Mr. STERN. So there were 28 Secret Service agents involved? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. At the various locations. Do you know whether the Dallas -police who were used were full-time policemen or were auxiliary -policemen? - -Mr. LAWSON. I do not know. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you happen to know the circumstances under which there -were some certain changes made as to the location of the motorcycle -escort that went close to the President's car? - -Mr. LAWSON. I know that their position varied, depending on the crowds. - -Mr. DULLES. No, I mean apart from that, apart from the crowd situation -do you recall that any orders were given by or on behalf of the -President with regard to the location of those motorcycles that were -particularly attached to his car? - -Mr. LAWSON. Not specifically at this instance orders from him. Just -what I know to be the case from other advances, that unless it is -necessary, it was my understanding that he did not like a lot of -motorcycles surrounding the car. That is why we had four just back -of the President's car, so that they could come up and intercept -anyone running out from the sides easily, or we could call the other -motorcycles back to him if we had to. - -But if there are a lot of motorcycles around the President's car, I -know for a fact that he can't hear the people that are with him in -the car talking back and forth, and there were other considerations I -believe why he did not want them completely surrounding his car. - -Mr. STERN. Can you summarize for us briefly the security arrangements -at Love Field? - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question about the car before we get to -Love Field. There has been testimony here that the back seat, the -seat in which the President and Mrs. Kennedy had sat, could be raised -or lowered I believe by the President himself, could be raised so he -could get a better view of the surrounding people, and then it could be -lowered and put in a normal position. Do you know anything about that -or how that mechanism worked and who worked it? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I am not familiar with his car except for the fact -that I know that you can raise or lower the seat. Now whether that -is done by him or in the front seat, we do have people that would be -competent to tell you that, however. - -Mr. DULLES. You don't know whether that seat was raised at this -particular time? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. As the car went---- - -Mr. LAWSON. I don't believe it would have been starting out. - -Mr. DULLES. I was talking about it at the time of the shooting. - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I have no idea. - -Mr. STERN. Could you now just very briefly and generally summarize the -security arrangements at Love Field and your participation in them. -Were they under your control and supervision? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; they were under my control and supervision. -We held our police meeting at the airport last because of problems -involved in finding an area big enough for his motorcade to start -and the planes to park and so forth. This was not actually resolved -until the day before he arrived, and that is why the police meeting -was held at that point quite late. But arrangements were made to have -the general public contained behind a chain link fence which is there -anyway, and any overflow general public to be in a parking lot a little -ways further away from the President, if there was not enough room -behind this chain link fence. Police were along both of these fences to -keep the people in their place. - -There were two service roads which came in between these two general -public areas. We closed off one and used the other because it was the -only service road that most of the wings from the Dallas Air Terminal -were able to use, catering trucks going together, airplanes, mechanics -and people being ferried, crews being ferried and so forth so we -couldn't cut it off directly. - -However, these roads were to be shut off when his plane touched down, -and kept shut off until after his motorcade departed inward, and then -they were to be used again while we were gone and then just before we -returned to the airport they were to be shut off again. - -Mr. STERN. What about police on buildings? - -Mr. LAWSON. Police were requested on the wing of the air terminal that -came out closest to where he would stop, and police were requested to -be on the air cargo building to the rear of this crowd area, which is -a little higher than the small building, the customs building. Any -policeman on the air cargo building would be able to control anybody on -the roof at the customs building. - -Mr. STERN. Were these police stationed to watch the crowd, to watch -persons who might be on the roofs of these buildings, to watch persons -who might be in these buildings? What was their function? - -Mr. LAWSON. The police on the building tops were to make sure that no -unauthorized people were on the building tops, and to watch generally -anything else that they could watch, that they were keeping their -building top clear. And there were police along the fences to watch the -crowd and to keep the people from coming onto the field who were not -supposed to. There were detectives to be assigned throughout the crowd, -to mingle with the crowd so that the people in the crowd would not know -they were detectives. - -Mr. STERN. Was there any particular check of offices inside the -buildings which might present a vantage point overlooking the place -where the President was to land and be received? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Were there such overlooking places? - -Mr. LAWSON. There wouldn't have been except in a certain wing way up to -the right of where he landed, quite a ways away. - -There wasn't any building directly in front on the side where he would -come off the plane and walk down. There would be a building to his -right at the very end of a wing that came out, and there was police -on that. The crowd behind the fences would go over to the customs -building, and no one would be able to see out of this one-story customs -building. And behind that was the air cargo building where a policeman -was requested on top. The police were then also requested all the way -along our exit route along the parking lots and the runways as we went -out of the airport and the motorcycle escort vehicles were waiting down -closer to where we made our exit, again because of the room factor. - -Mr. STERN. Did you confer with Air Force representatives who had -responsibility for the President's plane and the Vice President's plane? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. I learned that they had been in for a general -meeting of their own the morning of the 13th that I had not been aware -of, but because of the Presidential trips the week before he came to -Dallas, he went to Maryland and he went to New York and he went to a -couple places in Florida, they were not able to send someone out to -help with setting up the airport as soon as was usual. - -And because of a personal problem, the one that was to arrive on -Wednesday morning, didn't arrive until Wednesday evening. I was quite -certain that the area that we were being provided by the local airport -was not going to be sufficient for our motorcade formation, the parking -of three jet planes and so forth. But being a layman, I couldn't really -impress them that this was so. But when the Air Force people did come -in, they agreed that as set up it would not work, and Mr. Sorrels and -the assistant airport director were able to get some extra space from -a couple of companies nearby there, and it was able to be worked out, -still really not enough room but it was adequate. - -Mr. STERN. Ultimate responsibility for determining those -arrangements--whether those arrangements are adequate is with the Air -Force, is that right? - -Mr. LAWSON. I don't really believe I understand your question. Would -you make it again please? - -Mr. STERN. You were concerned that the arrangements were not adequate. - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. But you had to have the Air Force recommendation to -straighten things out with the local authorities? - -Mr. LAWSON. Well, I know the size of the planes because I have the -dimensions of them that I take with me on a trip, and other things, and -also from past experience. However, they make measurements and they -know their own FAA rules, Air Force rules as to how close you can park -jet planes to one another, what the turning radiuses are and so forth, -so I was certain that the room that we had been provided wasn't enough, -but I was also quite certain that when the Air Force got there, they -would bear me out, which was true. - -Mr. STERN. If the Air Force is satisfied with the arrangements though, -is that the end of it? - -Mr. LAWSON. Only for certain things. They would say if they definitely -had enough room to park, how they would be parked, how they would -come in, how they would go out and so forth. But again final security -responsibility would be up to us. If it is an area where you can't -possibly fit the press area in, the motorcade can't line up, the people -can't come out without creating a lot of confusion so that you can't -tell what is going on, then it delves into security, because the more -confusion you have the worse off you are security-wise. - -Mr. STERN. I think we might touch briefly on press arrangements. -Will you tell us, if you know, how the final arrangements for the -President's visit were announced, and particularly the motorcade route. - -Mr. LAWSON. I know from reading in the paper how it was announced but -I do not know who announced it. I believe it appeared in the Tuesday -morning paper. That would have been the 19th I believe. There was quite -a bit of speculation before that perhaps the motorcade would go here -and perhaps the motorcade would go there, but I believe that the one -that was finally used was put in the paper on Tuesday morning, the 19th -from my recollection. Let me make sure that Tuesday is the 19th. - -Mr. STERN. It is the 19th. Had there been a meeting on the 18th at -which this was considered? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; there was a meeting late in the afternoon of -the 18th, in a private club in Dallas that I arrived at late. The -meeting was called primarily as I understand it because of the various -political groups that wanted certain things, and what Washington -wanted, and there were various problems to work out as to who got -tickets, who sat at the head table, who rode in what cars and so forth. -And the local host committee had designated a certain individual to be -their representative there, and then these other groups also had people -represented. Mr. Puterbaugh, for example, the liaison man that went -with me from Washington, was there. And I had just come from going over -the route with the police earlier that afternoon, and I told them as a -point of information that this was the route as we had it now, unless -it was changed later. - -Representative FORD. The following morning---- - -Mr. LAWSON. The following morning. - -Representative FORD. It was announced in the newspapers? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. It was Tuesday morning, isn't it the 19th. - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; Tuesday morning. - -Mr. STERN. Is this a normal amount of advance publicity for this kind -of motorcade, regarding the actual route? - -Mr. LAWSON. Well, it depends on how much notice you have that the -President is going there. It was announced this morning that he is -taking a trip tomorrow on Appalachian poverty, so we sent agents out -this morning. Naturally even if they wanted to publicize the motorcade -route they wouldn't be able to do so in this instance. But on other -occasions it had been announced sooner than that or about as soon in -various areas; yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did you set up the areas at which the press would be located -at Love Field and at the Trade Mart? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; I did, with the approval of Mr. Hawkes from the -White House staff, when he made a trip a little bit later. Time was of -the essence. Sometimes we do it all when they do not send out someone -to represent the press office from the White House, and sometimes they -do it. In this case, because telephone lines, power lines, various -engineering data would have to be disseminated and fixed up, we had to -know where the press areas were going to be before Mr. Hawkes was able -to come. - -So I told them that I would set it up in the belief that I knew what -they usually wanted from the White House press office, but that he -would have the power to overrule me, and I requested assistance of a -local TV technician as to the angles and what not that the cameramen -would like. - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask one question there. Do you know whether any -consideration is now being given to withhold the announcement of the -actual route to be followed by the Presidential party until say the -morning that the trip is actually taken? - -Mr. LAWSON. Does this go into the realm of what we were talking about -before as to what we are going to do in the future? - -Mr. SMITH. It might. Do you suppose, sir, that that is one of the -things that---- - -Mr. DULLES. One has to do it in time so that those who want it could -get it, but it seems to me that say if the party was going to move here -about noon, now if the morning papers gave that that would give people -plenty of time to get to the positions they wanted, but wouldn't give a -prospective assassin very much time to prepare. - -Mr. SMITH. Sir, I don't know what the answer to that question is, but -the question arises as to whether this isn't in that area where, you -know, we are sort of deferring because of the sensitive nature of it. I -don't really know what the answer is, and I don't know whether it is -sensitive or not. Apparently Mr. Lawson thinks that it might be. - -Mr. LAWSON. No, just from your previous things, I can give you an -off-the-record answer and you can tell me if it is. - -Representative FORD. Why don't we make the same arrangement on this as -we had on the previous. Why don't you state for the record what you -know and then we will have the same arrangement in this case as we had -in the other. - -Mr. SMITH. Sir, I don't want to quibble but that was sort of an -after the fact arrangement in the sense that that it came out in the -testimony there after the fact. I was a little bit concerned about it. - -I am not sure we would want to make this arrangement on questions and -then reserving on the handling of them, because that isn't completely -in accord with what I understand to be the present arrangement with the -Chief Justice. - -Representative FORD. I suggest we do it this way then. Mr. Lawson now -shouldn't answer but I suggest that Mr. Stern in the questions that are -being prepared, for which answers will be given, that this question be -included. - -Mr. DULLES. That is entirely satisfactory to me. - -Mr. SMITH. I am sure you are aware we have no desire to withhold any -information whatsoever. It is just a question of procedure here. - -Representative FORD. This question is among those that are to be asked -in this interrogatory. Then the issue can be raised at that time. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Chairman, if you have questions to ask, or Mr. Dulles, -about the advance preparation up to the time of November 22, I think -this would be an appropriate time to cover it. - -Representative FORD. Do you have any, Mr. Dulles? - -Mr. DULLES. I don't think of any at the moment; no. It has been very -well covered. - -Representative FORD. Mr. Lawson. I would like to clear up in my own -mind some details. You were notified November 4 that you had this -assignment for the Dallas trip. - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Who actually notified you? - -Mr. LAWSON. Mr. Boring called me. He is assistant agent in charge of -the White House detail, one of two. - -Representative FORD. That was November 4? - -Mr. LAWSON. November 4; yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Do you recall the time of day? - -Mr. LAWSON. I believe it was late in the afternoon. - -Representative FORD. What did you do next after being notified? - -Mr. LAWSON. He told me that there wouldn't be any information available -of any consequence until about the 8th. So I still had my regular -duties and I was working. - -Representative FORD. What was the first thing you did officially in -reference to the Dallas trip? - -Mr. LAWSON. I went to Mr. Behn's office and called to Mr. Kellerman on -the 8th of November, and got the information that they had up to that -time, the proposed itinerary for the Texas trip, the time my airplane -left, the name of some contacts and so forth, and then after that, -went to the Protective Research Section, picked up this paraphernalia, -called the Dallas office that I was coming, and so forth. - -Mr. DULLES. Were you advised that this information should be kept -secret or is that just understood, when you were first given the -information about your assignments? That was kept entirely secret? - -Mr. LAWSON. Well, I wasn't advised that it should be kept secret. - -Mr. DULLES. But you never would give out this information. - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Until it is actually published. - -Mr. LAWSON. That is right. I believe it was published before that -though, however, anyway. - -Mr. DULLES. It was published that the President was going to Texas -before you went? - -Mr. LAWSON. That is my recollection, but it is in the newspapers. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you remember the date of that? Don't delay on this -account. Go right ahead. - -Representative FORD. Approximately how many such trips had you handled -prior to this one? - -Mr. LAWSON. I had assisted on some with a more experienced agent, and I -had had a few of my own responsibility with people assisting me. I had -assisted in Berlin. - -Representative FORD. Will you speak a little louder please? - -Mr. LAWSON. I had assisted in West Berlin in June. I had assisted -in Cincinnati on one of the congressional campaign trips in October -before they discontinued because of Cuba. I assisted in Albuquerque, -N. Mex., on one of his AEC trips. My responsibility, where I had the -responsibility myself, had been Cherry Point, N.C.; Billings, Mont.; -Little Rock, Ark. - -The Billings one was in September of 1963, and the Little Rock stop -was in October, the month before the assassination. Those were my two -responsibilities. I assisted in San Diego. That was my first assist. -Then I have had other assists and responsibilities here in Washington, -fund-raising dinners or speeches, lunches. - -Representative FORD. I gather then you had the principal responsibility -in five? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Or thereabouts? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. In each of those cases was the procedure the same -as far as PRS is concerned? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. You would go to the PRS and get a list of the -names of individuals and this other equipment? - -Mr. LAWSON. That is correct. - -Representative FORD. Now in the five or thereabout times that you did -this in the past, what was your experience with PRS? - -Mr. LAWSON. I was told in Buffalo, N.Y., of a couple individuals, a -couple of nuisance-type individuals more than actual threats. Also -told that there were a couple of individuals that came up after I had -left Washington on the Little Rock advance. Subsequent to the time -that I left, they notified the field office that things were under -investigation. - -Representative FORD. But only in the one instance, Buffalo, were you -actually given the names of a threat, prior to your departure? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes; I believe that is so. The other ones were subsequent -to that time. - -Representative FORD. And in the case of Little Rock you subsequently -received---- - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes. - -Representative FORD. A name or names? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; and also in Buffalo there were some phone calls -to the office that there was a threat involved. - -Representative FORD. In the case of Buffalo you had a name or two -before you went? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. But in the other cases where you had the -responsibility? - -Mr. LAWSON. Nothing. - -Representative FORD. The PRS gave you nothing? - -Mr. LAWSON. That is right. - -Representative FORD. Do you know from your own knowledge, conversation -with others who have similar responsibilities, whether PRS normally had -names to give to the agent in charge? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes; there have been occasions when that has happened, and -they are constantly sending over things in Washington, for example. If -we are just going out to the Sheraton for a dinner, you always call -up and say is there anything particular right now that we should know -about, a recent escapee or anything like that that we might not know -of yet. They put out lookout notices, send us a notification of people -who have lost their White House passes, etc. - -Representative FORD. Now, when you actually went to Dallas, who in the -Secret Service was under your jurisdiction, or what individual did you -work with down there in the Secret Service? - -Mr. LAWSON. I worked with Mr. Sorrels. He wouldn't really be under -my jurisdiction because he was the local agent in charge, and he had -various agents, also. On the day of the event his agents would be under -my jurisdiction, and also his, because he is normally their boss. - -Representative FORD. Howlett; what is his responsibility? - -Mr. LAWSON. He is an agent of the Dallas office. - -Representative FORD. Responsible to Mr. Sorrels? - -Mr. LAWSON. To Mr. Sorrels; yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. You got to Dallas when? - -Mr. LAWSON. The evening; Tuesday evening, the 12th. - -Representative FORD. When did you make the decision to investigate this -group of extremists down there? - -Mr. LAWSON. I heard that there were films available, I believe, on -Wednesday, or Thursday. I believe it was Wednesday. - -Representative FORD. That would be November 13? - -Mr. LAWSON. The 13th; yes, sir. And I kept it in mind so that I could -talk to the local office about that. I asked individuals in the local -office, Mr. Sorrels and also Special Agent Howlett, if they had any -knowledge, if they had done any informant-type work, if they had any -knowledge of anything that was going to go on that we might not know in -PRS, because PRS would only know of definite trips by the President. -But they might know of something else that might occur. And also at -another time I talked to Special Agent Howlett and asked him if he -would view the films of this. - -Representative FORD. You arrived there on the 12th, Tuesday? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. You met with Sorrels when? - -Mr. LAWSON. On Wednesday morning. - -Representative FORD. Wednesday morning? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Did you bring up, or did he bring up, the problem -of so-called extremist groups? - -Mr. LAWSON. I believe I brought them up, but I am not sure I brought -them up that morning. It was sometime later. - -Representative FORD. Sometime that day? - -Mr. LAWSON. It was that day or the next day that we talked about it. We -talked about these extremist groups off and on, of course, all the time -that I was there. - -Representative FORD. Did you limit it to so-called rightwing groups, -or did you have a broader view than that, about groups that might be a -problem on this trip? - -Mr. LAWSON. I believe that I specifically talked about the rightwing -groups; yes. - -Representative FORD. Did you ever have any responsibility for a trip to -New York at any time? - -Mr. LAWSON. No; I did not. I just assisted in one, the World's Fair -opening yesterday, but at that time I had not. - -Representative FORD. This would have to be hypothetical under the -circumstances, but if in the time prior to November 22 you had the -responsibility of a Presidential trip to a community where you knew -the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was active, would you have taken any -special interest in that group? - -Mr. LAWSON. I don't know. If at that time I had ever heard that they -were particularly, might be any threat to the President, a particular -group, if I knew that there was a particular group that advocated the -killing of the President, yes. If it was just a political group of -one kind or another, no, I probably wouldn't unless I had definite -information. - -Representative FORD. Did you have any evidence that the groups you -investigated in Dallas had any program or interest in killing the -President? - -Mr. LAWSON. No; I did not. - -Representative FORD. You had this investigation made of this group in -Dallas because of the Stevenson incident? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; I didn't have the investigation made, because I -don't think I would be in the position to have it made. Mr. Sorrels -or PRS or something like that could have. I asked, since we knew that -there were these individuals, and an incident had occurred in the past; -although no threat to the President was known, perhaps we had better at -least try to find out if they were going to do anything, which is what -I did. - -Representative FORD. When you go on with responsibility to a particular -community, do you normally inquire of groups of one kind or another -that have a reputation for political activity of one sort or another? - -Mr. LAWSON. Not for just political activity; no, sir. - -Representative FORD. I meant political activity in the broader sense; -not one political party versus another, but political extremist groups. - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; usually, if there is going to be any picketing, an -extremist group or something like that, it will come from the police -sources or another Federal source. They will tell us that they have -heard that certain individuals are going to hang signs from a window as -we go by, or demonstrate, or something like that. - -Representative FORD. Did you ask the Dallas police or any other local -authorities if they knew of any individuals or groups that might be a -threat to the President? - -Mr. LAWSON. I knew that Special Agent Howlett had been in contact with -them, both about the informants and going over to view the films. I did -not, except when I saw this one piece of literature, and asked them if -they knew anything about it. - -Representative FORD. Did Special Agent Howlett report to you of -what contacts he had made with the Dallas police or other local -law-enforcement authorities on this point? - -Mr. LAWSON. In generalities, yes, sir. He told me that he had seen an -informant outside of the city of Dallas, and that this informant had -been active in some of the movements; that he had quit because he was -afraid, but to his knowledge there was nothing going to occur. - -Representative FORD. Do you when you have this responsibility rely on -somebody else to ask the local people, or do you ask the questions -yourself of any groups that they know of or any individuals that they -know of locally? - -Mr. LAWSON. I believe it would depend on the circumstances. In this -case I knew that Special Agent Howlett was in contact with them. At no -time--you usually ask the police if they know of anything that is going -to occur, but, as I said, just regular political groups, unless I know -that they have anything to do with the President, I have never done so. - -Mr. DULLES. Would that include the Fair Play for Cuba Committee or -Communist groups or extreme rightist groups? - -Mr. LAWSON. It would have up until that time; yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Certainly the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was one -that took violent exception to this country's policies, and they were -active in a number of communities, including New York, as I recall. It -is my recollection that the President, prior to the assassination, had -been to New York at a time that this organization was active. What I am -trying to find out is, if the PRS doesn't provide you with information -about an individual or an organization, is it your responsibility to -actually make extra checks locally, based on your own knowledge or your -own experience? - -Mr. LAWSON. Well, I believe it would be my responsibility if I knew of -any organization that did advocate the killing or the harming of the -President. - -Representative FORD. There was no specific information that you had in -this case that the so-called rightwing extremist groups---- - -Mr. LAWSON. That is right. - -Representative FORD. Had that in mind? - -Mr. LAWSON. That is right; that is correct. It was also my -understanding that, if anything was known about some of these other -groups going to plan anything to embarrass the President or hurt -the President, we would be notified by the people whose jurisdiction -it is to look into those matters or who might have a little bit more -knowledge about them than the Secret Service. - -Representative FORD. When you got to Dallas, did you personally check -with the local FBI office about any individuals or any groups? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I did not. All the liaison either would be handled -from the local SAC's office or through Washington. - -Representative FORD. That would be between some Secret Service -office---- - -Mr. LAWSON. Either Mr. Sorrel's office and the local FBI office or from -our office to the FBI headquarters in Washington. - -Representative FORD. In the ordinary course of events that information -would be given to you? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. In this case there was none? - -Mr. LAWSON. I did find out that the police had sent over a couple of -copies of these pamphlets, but that is the only information that I had -of any liaison locally between the two. - -Mr. DULLES. Are you referring to Commission Exhibit No. 770? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; I am. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you know what action was taken with respect to this -pamphlet by the Dallas police? - -Mr. LAWSON. No; I do not, subsequent to that time. - -Mr. DULLES. How long before the President's visit to Dallas was this -brought to your attention; do you remember? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes sir; Thursday afternoon. - -Mr. DULLES. Thursday afternoon; Thursday before the Friday? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. In this preliminary report dated November 19, -which is Commission Exhibit 767, I notice there is no information in -here about this extra effort that was made down there over and above -the PRS. - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Is the format for this laid out in advance? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; it is. - -Representative FORD. Do they give you an opportunity to add anything to -it if you want to or feel you should? - -Mr. LAWSON. It could be; yes; I am sure it could. - -Representative FORD. Was there any reason why you didn't indicate in -this preliminary report what you had done in this regard? - -Mr. LAWSON. No; that belongs in our PRS section of the report. If this -had occurred in September or October, and this report as it is here -now, the final report had been sent in early, that would have been in -there. - -Representative FORD. I don't understand that. - -Mr. LAWSON. Approximately a month before the Dallas trip, we changed -the reports, if there was time, of course, on all these. In Washington, -D.C., for an on-the-record movement we have a report made up like this -final one, only it isn't called final. It is a survey report, and it -has everything in the introduction, PRS, and everything right in it, -and then a supplemental report. For our out-of-town trips they had a -preliminary survey report, and then a final survey report, so that -if the report had been done in September, let's say, that would have -been in it, because it is in the regular format under PRS. You put in -under the PRS section anything containing any untoward incident, any -information that you receive from PRS or anything that developed later. - -Representative FORD. This report I have here, final survey report, -Commission Exhibit 768, does include that information? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; it does. - -Representative FORD. Do you know whether or not Mr. Kellerman had this -preliminary report prior to his departure for Dallas? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; I prepared this Tuesday, late afternoon, and -Tuesday evening, the 19th, and made arrangements to have it flown by -airline to Washington, and then have an agent from the White House -detail pick it up from the airplane, which is normal procedure both on -the preliminary report, and when we use it to send the complete report -ahead of time. - -Then I called to make sure that it arrived, which it had. - -Representative FORD. This was prior to Mr. Kellerman's departure with -the President? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; it had to be done that early because they were -gone out of Washington the day before they got to me. - -Representative FORD. Are your current regulations for preliminary -report different now than they were at this time? - -Mr. LAWSON. I believe for out-of-town trips we have a preliminary -report and a final survey report. - -Representative FORD. Is the current format any different now than it -was November 19? - -Mr. LAWSON. I don't believe so. Again, there are things that you can -add here, certain stops; you might have a motorcade list and you might -not, if there isn't any motorcade. - -Representative FORD. I believe that is all. Do you want to proceed? - -Mr. DULLES. I have one or two questions that were brought up by your -own questions. Did you have any discussion with the Dallas police about -General Walker's activities? - -Mr. LAWSON. No; I did not, but I knew that he was in this rightwing -group and that Special Agent Howlett was pursuing this. - -Mr. DULLES. Was following its activities? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. And he was one of your local---- - -Mr. LAWSON. He was the local agent. - -Mr. DULLES. Agent in Dallas. This morning when Agent Bouck testified, -he left with us some memoranda, Commission Exhibit 762, setting forth -10 cases which had been looked into by the Dallas office during the -period October 25, 1961 to October 30, 1963. - -I note that a good many of these cases are marked closed, but I -wanted to ask whether the reports of these cases were brought to your -attention either before you left or after you got to Dallas, or are you -familiar with them? - -Mr. LAWSON. I am not familiar with them, but if they are active cases, -people that---- - -Mr. DULLES. In some cases it is stated, "Investigation completed." This -particular case, CO2-34007, says: - -"Investigation completed on December 12, 1963, by the Dallas office in -Texas." - -That means that this case at least was closed after the assassination. -You don't recall that. - -This is a report from a student at the university about a subject that -made derogatory remarks against the President. You don't recall that -case having been brought to your attention? - -Mr. LAWSON. I know that Special Agent Howlett told me. I believe this -might be connected with one of those informant things outside of Dallas -that I was speaking about, but I don't know this--I know it was Texas. -Whether this is the same one or not I don't know. But I would only have -knowledge of something that was brought to their attention that the -President's life was threatened, and I was given no information that -such had occurred. - -Mr. DULLES. And so you don't recall any of these 10 or 9 other cases -here? A good many of them are noted as closed. That situation would not -be brought to your attention? - -Mr. LAWSON. No; they would not. - -Mr. DULLES. Would not? - -Mr. LAWSON. No. - -Mr. DULLES. In some cases it is noted, "Subsequent activity none." It -is stated, "Periodic checkups were not deemed necessary. Prosecution -was declined." - -This was the case of a remark made by a gentleman at a bridge party. -You don't recall that case? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I wouldn't have any occasion to know what cases -have come into PRS. - -Mr. DULLES. Even if they related to Dallas? - -Mr. LAWSON. Only if they related to Dallas, and I have been told that -these individuals were in the active file, it was an open case, and -that we should be watchful of this particular individual, but I was -given none of this information. - -Mr. DULLES. In your case when you left Washington you weren't given any -cases that you considered dangerous in the Dallas area? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. When they do give you the name and the case of an -individual such as in the instance of Buffalo, what do you get? What is -given to you, I mean? - -Mr. LAWSON. You are given the name and the number of the case, and then -there is a file in Buffalo just like there is a file in Washington, and -you can review that file there, and depending on the circumstances you -would again have the person followed, or try something to keep him away -from the President. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. You are simply given the name and the file number. - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Of the individuals? - -Mr. LAWSON. You might be given some other information, like what it -concerns, but I mean you wouldn't sit down and read the whole thing -because you could get that in the Buffalo office or wherever. - -Mr. DULLES. What would have been your normal practice so far as you can -judge if you had been informed that a man, an American had defected -to the Soviet Union and had returned to the United States and was -living in Dallas and was working in the Texas School Book Depository, -would that have been sufficient cause alone to cause you to make an -investigation or report it to the Dallas police? - -Mr. LAWSON. If I had had that information--again this is supposition. - -Mr. DULLES. I realize that. - -Mr. LAWSON. But I probably would have asked advice on it from either -the PRS section or the White House detail ahead of it; yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Supplementing a point that was raised earlier, I find that -President Kennedy's visit to Texas was reported in the Dallas Morning -News as early as September 26, 1963, and the pertinent sections of this -press report--it is headed, "Kennedy to Visit Texas November 21-22," -and there is also included in the heading, "Dallas Included." The first -two paragraphs of this story reported from Jackson Hole, Wyo., that -area, where the President was then on a visit: - -"White House sources told Dallas News exclusively Wednesday night that -President Kennedy will visit Texas November 21 and 22. - -"The visit will embrace major cities of the State including Dallas." - -That is just to check on the point of the date when it was first -published. So it was published sometime before you were notified of -your assignment. - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; I was doing the Billings advance. He left -Billings to go to Jackson Hole, Wyo., and then returned the next -morning again to Billings. - -Mr. DULLES. You don't recall having heard that though? - -Mr. LAWSON. No. - -Mr. DULLES. In connection with your work with the President's party on -that trip? - -Mr. LAWSON. No. - -Representative FORD. Will you proceed, Mr. Stern? - -Mr. STERN. To conclude the advance work, Mr. Lawson, would you describe -the advance work for the Dallas visit as the same as or different from -typical advance preparations for a trip of this nature? - -Mr. LAWSON. I don't know if that is too general, but I would say that -it was quite a typical trip. - -I tried to do everything I could think of to make the advance run -smooth, and this trip work all right. - -Mr. STERN. The length of time you spent doing the advance, the contacts -you had, the time spent by other people, this was typical of this kind -of trip? - -Mr. LAWSON. Sometimes you go out earlier than other times. Actually -this was out just a little bit earlier than usual. - -An average, if you have to give an average, I would say you are out -about 7 days ahead of time. But like I say, some fellows left this -morning for a trip tomorrow. - -Mr. STERN. Now on the period up to November 22, as I said before, we -will rely substantially on what is in your memorandum. If there is -anything now that you would like to add or correct in the statements -you have made there, anything you would like to add to your testimony -so far today before this Commission, will you do so? - -Mr. LAWSON. I can't recall any. - -Mr. STERN. I would like to move then to the actual events of November -22. I show you first a two-page document marked for identification -Commission Exhibit 771. Can you identify that? - -Mr. LAWSON. I can. - -Mr. STERN. Will you tell us what it is and why it was prepared? - -Mr. LAWSON. It was a statement prepared by me on request of inspectors -in the chief's office as to my knowledge of the event of the shooting -of President Kennedy itself, and I prepared this the day after I -returned from Dallas, which was the 23d of November. - -Mr. STERN. I now show you a five-page memorandum marked for -identification Commission Exhibit 772. Could you identify that for us -and tell us how it was prepared? - -Mr. LAWSON. This is a statement that I gave about as many of my -activities, official activities concerning the President's visit the -whole day of November 22, and until I returned to Washington early on -the morning of November 23, as I could. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Chairman, may these be admitted? - -Representative FORD. They may be. - -(The documents marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 771 and 772 for -identification were received in evidence.) - -Mr. STERN. So that 772, the memorandum prepared on December 1 would -include everything that you put in your memorandum of November 23 which -was done immediately upon your return? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Turning to your memorandum of December 1, Commission Exhibit -772, it mentions on page 1 discussion of weather conditions and the -decision whether or not to use the bubble-top on the Presidential -automobile. Could you expand on that for us and tell us what happened? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; it was quite rainy early in the morning of the -22d in Dallas, and I received a phone call from the Assistant Agent in -Charge Mr. Kellerman, who was in Fort Worth with the President, asking -about weather conditions in Dallas, and what they probably would be, -and discussing whether to use the bubble-top on the President's car or -not. I was told the bubble-top was to be on if it was raining, and it -was to be off if it was not raining. - -Mr. STERN. And then what happened? Did the weather clear? - -Mr. LAWSON. The weather cleared quite fast. I can't recall now. It was -approximately an hour or 45 minutes before the President was scheduled -to arrive, and we had purposely put off changing the top until the last -minute when we could find out what the weather was going to be. - -But it cleared and the weather became quite sunny all of a sudden. -Also I received a phone call from Fort Worth from Agent Hill, who was -assigned to Mrs. Kennedy, asking what the weather was and whether the -top would be on or not. I suppose that was so he could let her know -whether she had to wear a hat or something because of the weather. - -I told him that it looked like it was starting to clear, but we still -had not made up our minds whether to have the bubble-top on or off at -the point of his call. But I told him if it was raining it would be on, -and if it was clear it would be off. - -Mr. STERN. Were you involved in the final decision respecting the -bubble-top? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; the weather was clear so I told them to have it -off. - -Mr. STERN. Then from your memorandum you visited, early on the morning -of November 22, the Trade Mart? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. And checked the final arrangements there, returned to Love -Field, checked the final arrangements there? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. The President arrived. You might tell us a bit about the -reception and the President's greeting the crowd. - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes. The press plane came in. It was the first plane in, -and some agents that were on the press plane that were coming in early -were sent to their respective posts at the Trade Mart. - -The traveling press that comes with the President were shown the press -area, were shown where the plane would be, and so forth, told a little -bit about the arrangements there. - -The transportation staff and people from the White House press office -were told a little bit more in detail about what would happen at Love -Field, and the motorcade, and the press arrangements down at the Trade -Mart. - -Ordinarily you need to provide transportation to the function for the -Presidential Seal, the flags, heavy sound equipment that comes on the -press plane and all that, and it was arranged for station wagons and -trucks to take that. - -But they told me upon arrival that they had sent these direct to Fort -Worth since it was so close and that we didn't need those. Shortly -after this, the Vice President's plane arrived, and I went out to greet -it with the agent from the Vice Presidential detail, and showing people -where to go if they wanted to get in their cars, and telling them where -the President's plane would be, and making myself useful to the people -coming off the Vice Presidential plane. - -While it was stopping, the Presidential plane was landing and taxiing -over, so that they went practically directly from their plane, those -people who wanted to greet the Presidential plane, to the rear ramp, -where he would be arriving. The President's plane stopped and the -greeting committee and the Vice President and Mrs. Johnson and any of -those people on the plane that had wanted to greet the President, local -Congressmen, et cetera, were over at the President's rear ramp and then -I was at the rear ramp across from the greeting committee and the other -dignitaries when he arrived. - -He went through the greeting committee. I was on his left, the opposite -side of the greeting committee, and the other dignitaries. He walked -toward the fence. At that time I made sure that the motorcade was all -ready to go, and the drivers were in their cars, and told people that -were in the motorcade to please get in their cars because as soon as -the President was ready, and we didn't know if that would be 1 minute -or 10, and as soon as he was in the car, why they would go. - -And gave instructions for moving the press ropes out of the press area, -because of the tightness there. We had to move part of the press area -before our motorcade could drive by. And in general doing all of these -little last-minute things. - -Then went over to the fence and went along with the President, -watching the crowd and talking to a few of the agents on some of their -responsibilities, and went to look to see if the lead cars and the -other police cars were about ready to go, and saw that the President -was not yet, so went back to him, and then got him to his car and ran -for my lead car and the motorcade proceeded from the airplane. - -Mr. STERN. Is it typical that the advance agent rides in the lead car? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Why is that? - -Mr. LAWSON. I suppose for various reasons. No. 1, the Presidential -driver, although you might have given him a route or all that, he -wouldn't really be familiar probably with the streets and all that, and -this is the car that has the command police officials in it, and the -Secret Service agent that knows the most about the start. - -So in any emergency situation the Presidential car will follow that -lead car if possible unless told otherwise. It is the best place for -an agent, and also he controls the motorcade speed, and so forth, from -there. - -Mr. STERN. Was there anything unusual in the motorcade until you got to -Main and Houston? - -Mr. LAWSON. Not unusual. There were crowds along the way, sometimes -heavier than others in about the spots that it was expected to be that -way. - -Mr. STERN. What was your impression of the attitude of the crowd -generally? - -Mr. LAWSON. It looked quite friendly, not as hopping and skipping as -much as some other places, but very friendly and sometimes people just -jumped up and down and screamed and yelled. This one seemed to be a -quite friendly group by and large. - -On one occasion I noticed a sign, I can't recall what it is right -now, but it was an out-of-the-ordinary sign, a sign designed to catch -someone's attention, and I thought right then that probably it would -catch the President's attention if he was looking to the right-hand -side of the car, which he was, and he stopped there, which is not -unusual. - -Sometimes he would stop for certain groups, certain types of people -at certain places unannounced, if there was something that caught his -fancy or caught his eye, and he did there. And of course the crowd -pressed around, and the other agents got off the followup car, got -around his car. - -Mr. Kellerman got out. I was a little bit more ahead than I had been. -We back up, stopped the motor car, told everybody by radio what was -happening, the other police that we were stopped. Before I was out of -the car to give any assistance, why we were moving again. - -Mr. STERN. Was that a built-up area with high buildings or were you -still in the suburbs? - -Mr. LAWSON. No; that was a suburban-type of area, a shopping -center-type of area out away from the downtown area. - -Mr. STERN. I think perhaps now you could tell us what you observed and -what transpired from the time your car turned into Houston Street off -of Main. - -Mr. LAWSON. As I have said previously today, right around that corner I -gave this radio broadcast that we were 5 minutes away. - -Mr. STERN. Was this while you were on Houston or had you turned? - -Mr. LAWSON. We had turned the corner. We were either at the corner, I -believe we were just about at the corner when I asked the question if I -shouldn't give about a 5-minute signal now so we must have been around -the corner then when I actually finished broadcasting. It doesn't take -long. - -Mr. STERN. Around the Houston-Elm corner? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; right in front of the Book Depository Building, -and then a little ways away from that probably by the time I had -finished broadcasting. - -I noticed a few people along the right-hand side I can recall now, and -more people on the right-hand side than out in the center strip median -which is there, a grassy center strip. There weren't many people on the -left at all. - -I recall thinking we are coming to an overpass now, so I glanced up to -see if it was clear, the way most of them had been, the way all of them -had been up until that time on the way downtown, and it was not. There -was a small group, between 5 and 10 that looked like workmen. I got the -impression, whether it was wrong or not I don't know, that they were -railroad workers. They had that type of dress on. - -And I was looking for the officer who should have been there, had been -requested to be there, and I noticed him just a little bit later, that -he was there, and I made a kind of motion through the windshield trying -to get his attention to move the people from over our path the way it -should have been. - -But to my knowledge I never got his attention, and I have said in one -of these statements that we were under the bridge, and I have said in -another one that we were just approaching this overpass when I heard -the shot. I really do not know which one is so, because it was so -close, but we were about at the bridge when I heard the first report. - -Mr. STERN. Now just to finish up with the people on the overpass, were -they in a crowd together, or spread out? - -Mr. LAWSON. They were spread out 1 or 2 deep, and as I say, between -5 and 10 of them to my knowledge, and I noticed the police officer -standing behind them about in the middle of the group. - -Mr. STERN. And as far as you can remember now, in a position to observe -all of them? Were they in close enough a group? - -Mr. LAWSON. Oh, yes; observed them from the back. - -Mr. STERN. Observed them from the back. Did you notice any unusual -movement? - -Mr. LAWSON. I did not. - -Mr. STERN. Did you know whether the policeman saw your signal or -acknowledged it? - -Mr. LAWSON. I didn't have any acknowledgment of it, and I don't know if -he saw the signal or not. At least the people didn't move, They still -stayed there in the middle. - -Mr. STERN. Were you able to see the sides of the overpass, apart from -the area directly over the lane you were traveling in? Could you -observe more? - -Mr. LAWSON. I am sure I could have, but I can only recall the people. -My immediate problem was right up there on the bridge, and I was -concentrating right there. I don't recall anything on either side of -the embankments. - -Mr. STERN. Or any people? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I do not recall any. - -Mr. STERN. Just this group? - -Mr. LAWSON. This group up on the bridge. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there. I think you testified just -now that your car was very close to the overpass. - -Mr. LAWSON. I believe it was. - -Mr. DULLES. And yet your car was only--well, how many feet ahead of the -President's car was your car at that time, roughly? - -Mr. LAWSON. I am not sure because I wasn't looking back right at that -time at the President's car. I was looking at the bridge because of the -people up on the bridge. - -Mr. DULLES. What was the normal distance? - -Mr. LAWSON. I think it was a little further ahead than it had been in -the motorcade, because when I looked back we were further ahead. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. STERN. Then what happened? - -Mr. LAWSON. I heard this very loud report which at first, flashing -through my mind did not say rifle shot to me. It sounded different than -a rifle shot. It sounded louder and more of a bang rather than a crack. - -My first impression was firecracker or bomb or something like that. I -can recall spinning around and looking back, and seeing people over on -the grassy median area kind of running around and dropping down, which -would be this area in here. - -Mr. DULLES. I might just add the witness is now referring to an aerial -photograph. - -Mr. STERN. Indicating the area between Elm Street and Main Street, the -grassy area between the two streets. - -Did you observe anything on the grass strip to the right of Elm Street? - -Mr. LAWSON. No; I didn't, and it is my impression that my car was in -this direction, so that when I looked back, that is why I saw this -particular area here and not things over here that we had actually, -see, started this curve so that when I looked back I was looking this -way. - -Mr. STERN. You were looking to the grass strip? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. In between Elm and Main and not to the grass strip across -Elm Street? - -Mr. LAWSON. That is correct. - -Mr. STERN. North of Elm Street. - -Mr. DULLES. The curve you referred to is the curve to the right. - -Mr. LAWSON. It curves to the right just as it starts at the underpass, -and continues to the right. - -Representative FORD. Why did you look back? Is that the direction of -sound? - -Mr. LAWSON. The direction of the sound and the direction of the -President. - -Representative FORD. Are you sure that the sound you heard came from -the rear and not from the front? - -Mr. LAWSON. I am positive that it came from the rear, and then I spun -back that way to see what had occurred back there. - -Mr. DULLES. Could you tell at all whether the sound came from above you? - -Mr. LAWSON. No; I could not. It was quite a general loud bang, an -echoing-type bang. - -Representative FORD. At the time of the sound you were within 15 or 20 -feet of the overpass approximately? - -Mr. LAWSON. I was quite close to the overpass, yes, sir; but I don't -know exactly how close. - -Representative FORD. You are sure that the sound didn't come from the -overpass? - -Mr. LAWSON. I am in my own mind that it didn't. It came from behind -me. Then I heard two more sharp reports, the second two were closer -together than the first. There was one report, and a pause, then two -more reports closer together, two and three were closer together than -one and two. - -Mr. STERN. What else did you observe when you looked back? - -Representative FORD. May I ask a question here. Had you turned around -by the time the second and third shots had been fired? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes; I had. - -Representative FORD. Did you get an impression from where they came? - -Mr. LAWSON. Again just behind me is the only impression I got, but in -relation to behind me, where I do not know. - -Representative FORD. Certainly not in front of you? - -Mr. LAWSON. No. - -Mr. STERN. You were in a closed car? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes; I was. The windows were open. - -Mr. STERN. And you were on the right-hand side in the front? - -Mr. LAWSON. The right-hand side; yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Could you see the President's car when you looked back? - -Mr. LAWSON. Not that first time. As I looked back I looked right -straight and saw the grassy median. Then the second and third shots, -reports, I noticed the President's car back there, but I also noticed -right after the reports an agent standing up with an automatic weapon -in his hand, and the first thing that flashed through my mind, this was -the only weapon I had seen, was that he had fired because this was the -only weapon I had seen up to that time. - -The events after that are a little bit jumbled, but I recall seeing -Agent Hill on the rear of the President's car receiving a radio message -that we should proceed to the nearest hospital. The nearest hospital -was a continuation of our route. - -Mr. STERN. Did you know that or were you told that? - -Mr. LAWSON. I knew that. Let me make a correction. I don't know if it -was the nearest hospital, but I knew that it would be the fastest one -that we could get to under the circumstances of where we were going -under this freeway. - -Mr. STERN. Did you know as part of your preparation or did you merely -observe it in the arrangements you were making? - -Mr. LAWSON. I had observed this from all the times I had passed the -hospital going over the route; yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. But it is not ordinarily a part of your advance work, or is -it, to locate hospitals? - -Mr. LAWSON. This is not a part of our report, but quite often in my -own report in other times I have listed hospitals and so forth, bed -facilities in some of my other reports. I did not in this case, but I -had noted this hospital. - -Mr. STERN. But it is something you pay attention to yourself? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; it is. Again we depend upon the police knowing -the city even better naturally than the advance agent to get us to a -hospital depending where we are or anything like that, that would occur. - -Mr. DULLES. What was the lead car doing at this time? - -Mr. LAWSON. The car that I was in, sir? - -Mr. DULLES. I thought you were in the second car. - -Mr. STERN. The pilot car. - -Mr. DULLES. The pilot car, not the lead car. - -Mr. LAWSON. The pilot car was up ahead of us, so appeared other things -I recall noting a police officer pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of -us, and mentioned that the President had been hit. - -When the Presidential car leaped ahead, although there was quite a -distance, not quite a distance but there was some distance between the -two cars, they came up on us quite fast before we were actually able to -get in motion. They seemed to have a more rapid acceleration than we -did. - -Mr. DULLES. Did they actually pass you? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; they never did. We stayed ahead of them. The route -was clear to the Trade Mart anyway, which was part of the route that we -used to get to the hospital. - -And then from the Trade Mart on, the route was going to be policed -after we arrived at the Trade Mart, so that on the route from the Trade -Mart to the Parkland Hospital, which isn't very far, we had to do some -stopping of cars and holding our hands out the windows and blowing the -sirens and the horns to get through, but we made it in pretty good time. - -I also asked Chief Curry to notify, to have the hospital notified that -we were on the way. I heard Chief Curry broadcast to some units to -converge on the area of the incident down by where it happened. I don't -recall how he phrased it, so that they would know to go to the Texas -Book Depository area. He told them to converge on a certain area, and -that is what it turned out to be. - -When we arrived at the hospital, as our car pulled up and was still -moving, I jumped out and a couple of the motorcycle policemen that had -arrived there ahead of us, I asked them to keep any crowd back, any -press people back, etc., as I went running in the building. - -I was looking for the stretchers that might be coming our way, and -didn't notice any at first until I looked quite a ways down the -corridor and saw two stretchers being pushed my way, and I ran down, -turned around, put one hand on each one and then as they pushed and I -pulled, we ran outside. - -The stretchers had to be placed in tandem because of the ambulance area -and Governor Connally being ahead of President Kennedy was placed on -the first one and taken immediately away. President Kennedy was placed -on the second one by myself and some other individuals, and we went -into the emergency room area and were shown into a particular emergency -room. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Lawson, your memorandum is quite complete on the events -from arrival at the hospital to your return to Love Field. If there is -anything you would like to add to that, please do so, or to anything -you have told us from the departure from Love Field to the arrival at -Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. LAWSON. I can't recall anything. - -Mr. STERN. I would like then to cover with you just a few points on -your opportunities to observe Lee Harvey Oswald following his arrest. -As I understand it, you returned to the Dallas Police Headquarters -with Chief Curry and other police officials after he was informed that -a suspect has been arrested, and arrived at the police headquarters -somewhere between 3:30 and 3:45; is that correct? - -Mr. LAWSON. I believe the Presidential plane took off at 2:40 -something, 2:47, so that I didn't leave Love Field until after that. It -was probably at least 10 minutes after that that we left. - -We made certain that the agents had all arrived back from the various -places that they were to return to Washington, and that the White House -staff, none of them had been left any place, and that the Air Force II -was going to pick up any stragglers. The press was going to depart on a -press plane, and so forth, so it was probably a little after 3 o'clock -before we left. - -I recall that it was very bad traffic in the downtown area. We were -bumper to bumper and didn't move a few times because apparently the -chief thought everybody was converging on the downtown area to see -this, plus all the people who had been there when it happened and just -stayed there. I arrived sometime quite late. - -Mr. DULLES. You were still with Chief Curry? - -Mr. LAWSON. I was. I was told by Chief Rowley rather than to come back -to remain in Dallas. It was quite late in the afternoon we arrived at -police headquarters. - -Mr. STERN. What were the conditions at police headquarters when you -arrived? - -Mr. LAWSON. Quite a bit was happening. I got the impression they had -squads of detectives doing all kinds of things, people working on the -Presidential assassination, people working on the Tippit killing. I -know that they had squads of men going out doing various things and -coming back, and it was quite hard just to keep abreast of things -that were breaking as to what each group was finding out as it was -happening, and quite often we were way behind. - -Mr. STERN. What about the appearance of the press and television -reporters and cameramen at that time? - -Mr. LAWSON. At least by 6 or 7 o'clock they were quite in evidence up -and down the corridors, cameras on the tripods, the sound equipment, -people with still cameras, motion picture-type hand cameras, all kinds -of people with tape recorders, and they were trying to interview -people, anybody that belonged in police headquarters that might know -anything about Oswald---- - -Mr. STERN. Can you estimate how many reporters? - -Mr. LAWSON. There were quite a few. The corridors, up and down the -corridors towards the chief's office to the right of the elevator, -around the elevator landing and down the corridors to the left of -the elevator towards the homicide area were quite packed. You had to -literally fight your way through the people to get up and down the -corridor. - -Representative FORD. Did you stay with Chief Curry most of the time? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I was in various rooms and with various people for -the rest of the evening. I saw Chief Curry quite often that evening. - -Mr. DULLES. Who was in command at that time of the Secret Service -detachment in giving the orders and coordinating the Secret Service men? - -Mr. LAWSON. Sorrels. My advance as such, was over, and I was just -another Secret Service agent. - -Mr. DULLES. He was in command? - -Mr. LAWSON. Sorrels would be in command of any Secret Service activity. - -Mr. DULLES. Subject of course to orders from Washington; I realize that. - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; and we understood that Inspector Kelley, on one -of our frequent phone conversations with Washington, we were told -that Inspector Kelley, one of our inspectors, was being sent out to -coordinate the Secret Service investigation and to be the overall -commander of the Secret Service out there, and he did arrive at -approximately 11 o'clock that evening and was met by an agent. - -Mr. DULLES. Does the Secret Service have a facility for commandeering, -getting airplanes when it needs them fast? - -Mr. LAWSON. In certain instances, sir, I believe we use the Air Force -and the MATS people for advance trips, or if the Presidential airplanes -are full and they still need agents to go some place, why they will put -on another airplane for us. Sometimes we use Air Force transportation, -sometimes commercial. - -Mr. DULLES. You have adequate facilities, have you, to get around in -time of emergency like this, quickly? - -Mr. LAWSON. I wouldn't be in a position to answer that, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Chief Rowley would probably be the one. - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. When did you first observe Lee Harvey Oswald, Mr. Lawson? - -Mr. LAWSON. It was early in the evening of November 22. He had been in -police headquarters for a little while at least before I first saw him, -and they had already interrogated him as I understand it, and various -detectives, police officials, and Mr. Sorrels and a couple other agents -and myself saw Lee Harvey Oswald when he was brought in for Mr. Sorrels -to talk to at Mr. Sorrels' request. - -Mr. STERN. Did you interrogate him? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. STERN. Did Mr. Sorrels handle the interrogation alone? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; that particular one. - -Mr. STERN. What were the questions and answers as best you can recall? - -Mr. LAWSON. He asked information as to name. - -Mr. DULLES. Who is "he" now? - -Mr. LAWSON. Mr. Sorrels in asking the questions already had some -background on Mr. Oswald before he started questioning Mr. Oswald. The -detectives or other individuals had told them what they knew up to -this point about Oswald, his name, that he had been out of the country -previous to this time to Russia, and a few other things. It was known -at the particular time, perhaps 6 or 7 o'clock. - -Mr. STERN. I take it you had phoned his name to your headquarters in -Washington as soon as you knew Oswald's name? - -Mr. LAWSON. I didn't. Perhaps Mr. Sorrels did. - -Mr. STERN. Did your office advise you whether they knew anything about -Oswald or had found out anything about Oswald? - -Mr. LAWSON. Not me personally. - -Mr. STERN. That you know of? - -Mr. LAWSON. Not me personally. - -Mr. STERN. Were any other questions asked? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes; I recall Mr. Sorrels asking if he had been out--where -he had been living, where he had been employed over the last years, and -other information Mr. Sorrels already knew about. - -Representative FORD. What was his attitude? What was the attitude of -Oswald during this period? - -Mr. LAWSON. Oswald just answered the questions as asked to him. He -didn't volunteer any information. He sat there quite stoically, not -much of an expression on his face. - -Mr. DULLES. Quite what? - -Mr. LAWSON. Stoically. - -Mr. DULLES. Stoical? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Was he belligerent? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; he didn't seem to be belligerent at all. - -Representative FORD. Did he resent the interrogation? - -Mr. LAWSON. I didn't get the impression that it was a great resentment. -He just answered the questions as they were asked of him. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he answer all the questions? - -Mr. LAWSON. I believe he did. - -Mr. DULLES. These were questions that Mr. Sorrels put to him? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes; of course, Mr. Sorrels, I don't believe at that time, -as I remember it, didn't ask him everything that we knew about him. - -Representative FORD. Was there a transcript kept of this interrogation? - -Mr. LAWSON. I don't know. - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall any other questions that were asked? - -Mr. LAWSON. I don't. At this time they were just general-type questions. - -Mr. STERN. What was his physical condition? - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there? The question wasn't asked -him at this time, at least while you were present, whether he was or -was not guilty of the attack on the President? - -Mr. LAWSON. This I do not recall. During this I recall I was called out -for a phone call a couple of times. We were given information from Mr. -Max Phillips, who was in our PRS section, and I believe it was during -this that someone, an agent, was wanted on the phone, and I went out -and answered this, and they gave us some information on people that it -might have been--a case that wasn't Oswald. - -Mr. STERN. What was his physical condition? - -Mr. LAWSON. He was quite, well, unkempt looking, and I recall that he -had a few bruises on his face. - -Mr. STERN. A few bruises? - -Mr. LAWSON. I believe over an eye, a bruise or two. I can recall that -he had a bruise over an eye or on a cheekbone, or someplace on his -face, in looking back. And had a shirt and a pair of pants on. He -wasn't very tidy looking, a little unkempt in his appearance. - -Mr. STERN. Was he handcuffed, do you recall? - -Mr. LAWSON. I don't recall. I know I saw him handcuffed around police -headquarters quite a bit, but during this interrogation I don't -remember if he was handcuffed or not. - -Representative FORD. How long did this interrogation go on? - -Mr. LAWSON. This was not long. - -Representative FORD. Five minutes? - -Mr. LAWSON. Five to ten minutes at the most; yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Then what happened? Did Mr. Sorrels finish? - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask one other question there? Was there an -interrogation just conducted by Mr. Sorrels, or were there others in on -it, the police or the FBI? - -Mr. LAWSON. I don't know if there were FBI agents there. There were -other plainclothesmen there, and a few uniformed officers. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Sorrels conducted the investigation? - -Mr. LAWSON. Mr. Sorrels was asking these particular questions, -general-type questions, and when he finished the police took him back -to another area. - -Mr. STERN. When did you next see Oswald? - -Mr. LAWSON. I recall seeing him in another room in homicide -headquarters with a couple of plainclothes people and their talking to -him. I saw him later in the evening, perhaps 9:30, 10 o'clock, when he -was brought down to a showup room, because we had information that a -gentleman had seen someone at a window, and so-- - -Mr. STERN. Do you know who that was, the witness? - -Mr. LAWSON. I do not know; no, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Could it have been someone named Brennan? - -Mr. LAWSON. The name doesn't mean anything to me. Mr. Sorrels had sent -an agent out to bring him down to police headquarters to talk to him, -and he informed us he had seen someone in the window, but he had also -seen Lee Oswald on television in the meantime, and he didn't know of -how much value he would be. - -Mr. STERN. Did he say anything about whether he thought---- - -Mr. LAWSON. He could not say yes or no, whether Oswald was the -individual or not. - -Mr. STERN. Did you notice any irregularity in the way the showup was -conducted? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did it seem like a normal one to you, the size of the people? - -Mr. LAWSON. I didn't notice any irregularity. - -Mr. STERN. And their dress? - -Representative FORD. Had Oswald had any additional physical damage done? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. The last time you saw him? - -Mr. LAWSON. No; he had not. That was not the last time I saw him, -however. Then I later, approximately 11:30, or around midnight, it -was announced that there would be a press conference again down in -the showup room, and Inspector Kelley had arrived by that time, not -too long before that, and Inspector Kelley and I and another agent or -two went down to this press conference where it was just completely -packed. Everyone couldn't get in the room, the cameramen, reporters, -broadcasters, and so forth. Upon a signal---- - -Mr. DULLES. Who conducted that meeting? - -Mr. LAWSON. I believe it was the assistant district attorney and Chief -Curry and perhaps Captain Fritz. We were just there watching. - -Mr. STERN. Tell us more about what---- - -Mr. LAWSON. He was brought in through the crowd and through a side door -there, through the corridors, brought in, and I believe the chief and -the district attorney each gave statements, and Oswald was asked a few -questions then by the press, but I don't recall of it except that he -was whisked out again fairly rapidly after that. - -Mr. STERN. Do you remember what any of the questions were and his -responses? - -Mr. LAWSON. No, I don't. - -Mr. STERN. How many people were in this room? - -Mr. LAWSON. It was overflowing. You could hardly hear because everyone -was shouting questions. That is why I don't remember what the specific -questions were and what his responses were. - -Mr. STERN. Do you have any impression why this interview was conducted? - -Mr. LAWSON. No; I do not. - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall anything else that was said by the eyewitness -that Mr. Sorrels had arranged to be brought in for the showup, anything -else that he said while he was standing talking to you or Mr. Sorrels -or while Oswald and others were on the---- - -Mr. LAWSON. No; I don't. - -Mr. STERN. Then shortly after this showup, or shortly after this -interview in the showup room, you left for Washington, I take it? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes; there had been quite a bit of discussion during the -evening as to what evidence they had up to this time, the rifle, -clothing, et cetera, would be brought to Washington to the FBI lab to -be worked on, or whether the police would keep it in their custody for -a little while longer for their investigation, and there was quite a -bit of discussion by various people all evening long. - -And when it was finally decided it would be released by the Dallas -police, the rifle and other evidence to return to Washington, Inspector -Kelley told me to return on the special plane that was flying the -evidence and the accompanying FBI agent back to Washington. - -Mr. DULLES. Was the evidence turned over to you or the FBI? - -Mr. LAWSON. To the FBI, sir. I just returned on the plane. - -Mr. STERN. Was there at one point a reluctance on the part of the -Dallas police to release the evidence? - -Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. They felt, from what I overheard, they felt they -might be able to get an identification of the rifle from one of the -local gunshops. There were various leads that they wanted to follow out -on that rifle that evening and the next day. I believe there was some -talk that they couldn't locate some of the gunshop owners, and some of -the other things they wanted to do. So they wished to keep this rifle -for a day or so and then release it. - -Mr. STERN. I am told this has been covered with other witnesses, so -there is no need to pursue it. I have nothing further. - -Representative FORD. How long was this interview where Oswald was -present? - -Mr. LAWSON. The press interview, sir? - -Representative FORD. How long was he before the press? - -Mr. LAWSON. I would say 5 minutes at the most. - -Representative FORD. I have no other questions. - -Mr. DULLES. I have no other questions. - -Representative FORD. Is that all, Mr. Stern? - -Mr. STERN. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mr. Lawson, you have been -very helpful. - -Mr. DULLES. We appreciate it very much. - -(Whereupon, at 5:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Thursday, April 30, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF ALWYN COLE - -The President's Commission met at 9:25 a.m. on April 30, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman -Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and John J. McCloy, members. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; and Melvin Aron -Eisenberg, assistant counsel. - - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. - -The purpose, Mr. Cole, of today's hearing is to take the testimony -of Mr. James C. Cadigan and yourself. Mr. Cadigan is a questioned -documents expert of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and as we -all know, you are a questioned documents expert of the Department of -the Treasury. We desire your testimony for technical assistance to -the Commission in connection with the papers used in this hearing -concerning the assassination. - -Mr. COLE. I understand. - -The CHAIRMAN. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this -Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. COLE. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Eisenberg, you may conduct the examination. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, could you state your full name, please? - -Mr. COLE. That is Alwyn Cole. - -The CHAIRMAN. I am obliged to spend the morning with the Court. We are -hearing arguments today and when I leave, in a short time, Congressman -Ford will preside at the meeting and conduct it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is your position, Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. I am employed as examiner of questioned documents with the -U.S. Treasury Department. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state your specific duties in this position? - -Mr. COLE. I am required to examine any document in which the Treasury -Department is interested when a question arises about the genuineness -of the document or the identity of any of its parts. A good deal of -this work includes the identification of handwriting. - -Mr. EISENBERG. From what sources is work referred to your laboratory, -Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. From the several divisions of the Office of the Treasury -of the United States, and from the various Bureaus of the Treasury -Department, including the enforcement agencies: Secret Service, -narcotics, customs, internal revenue service. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, can you tell us how you prepared yourself to -carry on this work of questioned documents examination? - -Mr. COLE. I served an apprenticeship of 6 years under Mr. Burt Farrar -from 1929 to 1935. Mr. Farrar at that time was the document examiner -for the Treasury Department, and at the time of my association with him -he had had over 40 years of experience in the work. - -Under Mr. Farrar's tutelage I studied the leading textbooks on -the subject of questioned documents, which includes handwriting -identification, and I received from him cases for practice examination -of progressively increasing difficulty, made these examinations, -prepared reports for his review, and also during this period I had -assignments to other Government laboratories, those of the Bureau -of Engraving and Printing and the Government Printing Office, and I -had close association with other technical workers in the government -service. - -I succeeded Mr. Farrar in 1935, and I have had daily practical contact -with questioned problems from 1929 to the present date. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, are you a member of any associations of -persons engaged in questioned documents examination? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; I am. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you state those positions? - -Mr. COLE. I am a member of the American Society of Questioned Document -Examiners, of the International Association for Identification, and of -the American Academy of Forensic Science. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you give instructions to others in this work, Mr. -Cole? - -Mr. COLE. I do. I am an instructor at the Treasury Department Law -Enforcement Officer Training School. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you had occasion to testify in Federal or other -courts? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; I have, many times. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I ask that this witness be permitted to -give expert testimony on the subject of questioned documents. - -The CHAIRMAN. The witness is qualified. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, I now show you a photograph of an envelope and -a purchase order. The envelope is addressed to Klein's, in Chicago, -from one "A. Hidell," and the purchase order, which is included in the -photograph, is an order also addressed to Klein's from "A. Hidell," and -I ask you whether you have examined this photograph. - -Mr. COLE. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted into evidence as -Commission Exhibit 773? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 773 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, this photograph was produced from a roll -of microfilm in the possession of Klein's, a Chicago firm which sells -weapons of various types, and which sold the assassination weapon. - -Now, Mr. Cole, I am going to hand you a group of documents which I will -identify for the record. - -The first is an application form to Cosmos Shipping Co., Inc., signed -Lee H. Oswald, and containing handprinting and cursive writing. Have -you examined that document, Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as Commission Exhibit 774, Mr. -Chairman? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 774 was marked and received in evidence.) - -The CHAIRMAN. I wonder if it might not be better to put the tab on the -document itself because someone in handling it might take it out of the -envelope. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. The second document is a letter addressed to the -American Embassy, entitled "Affidavit of Support," and signed Lee H. -Oswald. - -Mr. COLE. I have examined this document. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I would like that admitted as 775, Mr. Chairman. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 775 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. The third is a group of checks made payable to the order -of Lee H. Oswald, and the company listed on the top of the check is -Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, Inc. These checks are endorsed on the back "Lee -H. Oswald," and I ask you whether you have examined these documents? - -Mr. COLE. I have examined these documents. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may these be admitted as 776? - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit 776 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Here I would like to mark the envelope. - -The fourth item is a library card for the New Orleans Parish, or the -Orleans Parish, and the signature is Lee H. Oswald. - -Mr. COLE. I have examined this document. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 777? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 777 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. The next item consists of photographs of two letters to -the Department of State, both concerning payments on loans, repayments -of loans, and both signed "Lee H. Oswald," and I ask whether you have -examined these documents? - -Mr. COLE. I have examined these photographs. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May these be admitted as 778? - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 778 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Next are two pages of writing on lined and holed paper -entitled "The Communist Party of the United States Has Betrayed -Itself!" and numbered "1" and "2," with some discoloration. Mr. Cole, -have you examined those? - -Mr. COLE. I have examined these. The discoloration mentioned was on the -documents when I first saw them. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may these be admitted as 779? - -The CHAIRMAN. Admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 779 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Next is a file entitled "Oswald, Lee Harvey, -USMC"--which stands for Marine Corps--serial number or file number -1653230, and then another number appears, 8812, and this has various -writing, certain of which are signed by Lee H. Oswald, together with -letters to Lee H. Oswald, and I ask you if you have examined this file, -Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May this be admitted as 780, Mr. Chairman? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 780 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Next is a passport application signed "Lee H. Oswald," -dated in the upper right "Passport Issued June 25, 1963," and there are -other dates which appear--principally June 24, 1963--in other portions -of the application. Mr. Cole, have you examined that? - -Mr. COLE. I have examined this document. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 781, Mr. Chairman? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 781 was marked, and received into evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Next is a letter entitled "Dear Sirs: This is in -regard to my wife's file" and so forth, addressed apparently to the -Immigration and Naturalization Offices in San Antonio, Tex., signed -"Lee H. Oswald," together with another such letter addressed to -the same--addressed to Dallas, Tex., the Office of Immigration and -Naturalization, Dallas, Tex., signed "Lee H. Oswald," and a third -letter to Room 1402, Rio Grande Building, 251 North Field Street. - -These letters, all signed "Lee H. Oswald", and all having to do with -aspects of immigration and naturalization, are entitled or numbered on -the backs respectively 00645, dated July 5, 00146, dated--that is July -5, 1962, in the first--00146, dated July---- - -Mr. COLE. I believe it is 6. - -Mr. EISENBERG. July 6, 1962, and 010156, dated July 10, 1962. Have you -examined these three documents? - -Mr. COLE. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May these be admitted as 782A, 782B, and 782C, Mr. -Chairman? - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted under those numbers. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And finally, an item consisting of two subitems, one -a short note signed "Lee H. Oswald" and beginning, "Please enroll -me as an associate member at $2.00," relating to the ACLU, and the -second item being an application to the American Civil Liberties Union -national office, "Please enroll me as a new member of the ACLU," name -printed "Lee H. Oswald," and I ask you whether you have examined these -two items. - -Mr. COLE. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May these be admitted under the common caption 783? - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibits Nos. 782A, 782B, 782C, and 783 were marked and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cole, have you compared the documents 774-783, -all signed "Lee H. Oswald," with the document 773, the photograph of a -purchase order to Klein's Sporting Goods, for purposes of determining -whether the author of the documents 774-783 also authored the document -773? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is your conclusion? - -Mr. COLE. It is my conclusion that the author of the standard writing -bearing the exhibit numbers which you just related---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. 774-783? - -Mr. COLE. 774-783, is the author of the handwriting on Commission -Exhibit 773. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you referred to the term "standard writing," Mr. -Cole. Can you explain that term? - -Mr. COLE. I used these as the standard writing, as a basis for -comparison. - -Mr. EISENBERG. "These" referring to 774-783? - -Mr. COLE. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Those standards would be what you would refer to, -therefore, what might also be referred to as "known" items? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the Document 773 is the "questioned" item? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now for the record, in the future I will refer -collectively to 774-783 as the standards. - -The CHAIRMAN. They were all written by the same person? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, Your Honor. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, were these the only standards or potential -standards from which you had to draw, or were a larger group of -potential standards furnished to you? - -Mr. COLE. I saw a larger group of papers of potential standards. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state the circumstances under which this larger -group was given to you? - -Mr. COLE. I came to your office and reviewed a very large group of -papers, and I pointed out what I would regard as a cross section or -representative sample from that larger group of papers. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And can you explain the basis on which you took the -actual standards 774-783, that is, on which you selected those -documents from the larger possible group of documents which might have -served as standards? - -Mr. COLE. Well, two bases: One, that the writing is fairly clear and -legible; most of these documents are not stained or mutilated in any -way; all the writing can be seen clearly. And, two, I think that this -group of papers gives a complete, reasonably complete record of the -writing habits of the author. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, continuing on these standards for a moment, -have you examined other questioned documents besides Commission 773 at -my request? - -Mr. COLE. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do the standards which you selected, that is, items 774 -through 783, in your opinion provide a sufficient basis for comparison -of the other questioned documents which you also examined? - -Mr. COLE. They do provide a satisfactory basis for comparison. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are they sufficiently close in time, both to 773 and to -the other questioned documents which you have examined? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does handwriting change over the course of time, Mr. -Cole? - -Mr. COLE. Handwriting does change over the course of time, but usually -fairly large periods are involved, 5 or 10 years or such. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any variation in the writing instruments which -were used to produce the various standards? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; I think a variety of instruments were used. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does this affect your ability to use the standards -as against the questioned documents or as against those questioned -documents produced with other writing instruments? - -Mr. COLE. It does not adversely affect my ability to make a comparison. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is, you are able to compare a document produced by -a ballpoint pen with a document produced by a fountain pen and vice -versa? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do the standards show both cursive writing and -handprinting? - -Mr. COLE. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain meaning of the term "cursive writing"? - -Mr. COLE. Cursive means connected writing, as the term is used, with -a running connected hand, whereas handprinting refers to the separate -writing of letters without the connection of letters and usually -involves a somewhat different style for the formation of letters, that -is Roman capital letters or the lower case letters. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Cursive writing then is the type of writing which we -normally use, which connects--in which the letters are connected, the -type which is taught in schools? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, some of the standards which are in the group -774 to 783 are photographs rather than originals. - -Mr. COLE. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does a photograph in your opinion provide a sufficient -standard on which to base a conclusion as to a questioned document? - -Mr. COLE. Well, I believe these particular photographs are satisfactory -for that purpose. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you draw a conclusion as to the origin of a -questioned document if your only standard was a photograph? - -Mr. COLE. If the photographs were comparable to the photographs we have -in this case; yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, you examined the standards in their entirety, -did you? - -Mr. COLE. I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you have stated in answer to an earlier question -they were all prepared by the same person, as I understood it? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. What is unique about these photographs that gives -you this certainty or---- - -Mr. COLE. Well, I did not mean to indicate they are of a specially good -quality, but I had in mind the possible existence of other photographs -which would be much poorer and would not provide a satisfactory -basis. I think that on these photographs I can see everything that is -necessary to see to appreciate writing habit. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, when you say the standards were all written by -one person, that is with the exception of initials put on by law -enforcement officers and the like? - -Mr. COLE. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cole, returning to 773, the questioned -document, can you tell the Commission how you formed the conclusion -that it was prepared by the author of the standards, that is, what -steps you followed in your examination and comparison, what things you -considered, what instruments or equipment you used, and so forth? - -Mr. COLE. I made first a careful study of the writing on Commission -Exhibit 773 without reference to the standard writing, in an effort to -determine whether or not this writing contained what I would regard as -a basis for identification, contained a record of writing habit, and as -that--as a result of that part of my examination, I concluded that this -is a natural handwriting. By that I mean that it was made at a fair -speed, that it doesn't show any evidence of an unnatural movement, poor -line quality, tremor, waver, retouching, or the like. I regard it as -being made in a fluent and fairly rapid manner which would record the -normal writing habits of the person who made it. - -I then made a separate examination of the standards, of all of the -standard writings, to determine whether that record gave a record of -writing habit which could be used for identification purposes, and -I concluded that it, too, was a natural handwriting and gave a good -record of writing habit. - -I then brought the standard writings together with the questioned -writing for a detailed and orderly comparison, considering details of -letter forms, proportion, pen pressure, letter connections, and other -details of handwriting habit, and as a part of my examination I made -photographs of the standard writings and brought certain parts of them -together on a chart for greater convenience in comparing the standards -with the questioned writing. - -The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, I think it will be necessary for me to leave -now, Congressman Ford, you will preside, will you, please? I appreciate -it. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -(At this point, the Chief Justice left the hearing room.) - -Representative FORD. Proceed. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, you mentioned that the writing in both the -questioned document, 773, and the standard seem to be produced at a -natural speed. - -Mr. COLE. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How do you determine that any document is produced at a -natural speed? - -Mr. COLE. Because that conforms to a large number of other specimens -that I have examined over a period of years which I knew to be normal -writing. Specifically, it agrees with respect to the quality of the -line, which is reasonably good in this handwriting and which I would -expect to be quite poor in an unnatural specimen, one that had been -made at an abnormally reduced writing speed. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you expand further on what you mean by "quality of -the line"? - -Mr. COLE. Well, quality of line is--refers to the sharpness of the -edges of lines, to the absence of tremor, waver, patching, retouching, -and similar defects. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, could you explain the basis on which you -were able to make an identification of a questioned writing as being -authored by the person who wrote a standard writing? - -Mr. COLE. This is based upon the principle that every handwriting is -distinctive, that since the mental and physical equipment for producing -handwriting is different in every individual, each person produces -his own distinctive writing habits. Of course, everyone learns to -write in the beginning by an endeavor to repeat ideal letter forms, -but practically no one is able to reproduce these forms exactly. Even -though a person might have some initial success during the active -period of instruction, he soon departs from these and develops his own -habits. It may be said that habit in handwriting is that which makes -handwriting possible. Habit is that which makes handwriting efficient. -If it were not for the development of habit, one would he obliged to -draw or sketch. - -Some habit would be included even in those efforts. But the production -of handwriting rapidly and fluently always involves a recording of -personal writing habit. This has been confirmed by observation of -a very large number of specimens over a long period of time, and -it has further been demonstrated by, on my part, having a formal -responsibility for rendering decisions about the identification of -handwriting based upon an agreement of handwriting habit in situations -where there would be a rigorous testing of the correctness of these -decisions by field investigators, for example, of the law-enforcement -agencies, and a demonstration that these results were confirmed by -other evidence. - -This is the basis for identification of handwriting. - -Mr. EISENBERG. As I understand it, you mean you would make a -preliminary identification of a suspect on the basis of handwriting -and it has been your experience that field investigation confirms that -determination with additional evidence? - -Mr. COLE. This is not what I would call "a preliminary identification." -This would be a formal presentation and formal report to other persons -who are interested in the problem, and the investigation would be -continued from that point. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, is handprinting as well as cursive writing -unique to every individual? - -Mr. COLE. Well, I would say much of it is. Not all of it. Handprinting -doesn't always give the same amount of information about writing habit -as does cursive writing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are you always able to identify the author of a writing -if you have a questioned document and a standard document? - -Mr. COLE. No, sir; not always. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And can you expand on that? - -Mr. COLE. Well, some handwriting doesn't include enough distinctive -features, or in some cases there may not be enough of it to give a -complete enough record of handwriting habits to be certain that you -have a basis for identification. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you need a sufficient basis in both the questioned -and the standard? - -Mr. COLE. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do the standards that you have selected provide a -sufficient basis for making identification? - -Mr. COLE. They do. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Without going into every questioned document separately, -do the questioned documents which you have reviewed at my request each -individually provide a sufficient basis for comparison? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Is there a difference of opinion in your -profession as to how much or how little you need for this purpose? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; I think it would vary from one worker to another, -depending upon his experience in the work. - -It sometimes happens that a person with limited experience may go -to either one extreme or to the other. He may sometimes be rather -reckless. Other times he may be extremely cautious. - -Representative FORD. But the decision you have made in this case would -be what other experts, in your opinion, would agree to? - -Mr. COLE. I would say others with whom I am familiar, with whom I have -worked and talked to, corresponded with over the years. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, can you characterize the skill of the author -of the standards and Exhibit 773? - -Mr. COLE. I would say it is an average skill. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are some of the standards prepared more skillfully than -others? - -Mr. COLE. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you account for that at all? - -Mr. COLE. I think there is a natural range of the use of skill in -handwriting, possibly depending upon the purpose or the physical -surroundings for producing handwriting or the writing instruments. -When the conditions for producing handwriting are the best, and one's -purpose is a perfectly free expression of his handwriting habit, then -he may produce a better handwriting than when conditions are poor, such -as an awkward writing position or poor writing tools. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, you mentioned earlier that you had prepared -some photographs or charts---- - -Mr. COLE. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Showing the standards or portions thereof? - -Mr. COLE. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you produce those charts? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cole, you have produced here three large -charts, each entitled "Standard Writing" and bearing the designations -"A," "B," and "C" in the upper left-hand corners. Can you tell us -precisely what is reflected on these charts A, B, and C? - -Mr. COLE. These charts show excerpts from the standard writings, -sometimes showing a portion of a line, other times showing a single -word or a block of writing from the standard exhibits. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were these charts, which are in the form of photographic -reproductions, prepared by you or under your supervision, Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. They were. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are they true and accurate reproductions of the portions -of the standard writings they purport to reproduce? - -Mr. COLE. They are. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may these be admitted as 784A, B, and C? - -Representative FORD. They may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibits Nos. 784A, B, and C were marked and received in -evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, have you prepared a photograph of Exhibit 773? - -Mr. COLE. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Will you produce that photograph, please? Was that -photograph 773 made by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And is it a true and accurate reproduction of 773? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May this be admitted as 785, Mr. Chairman? - -Representative FORD. It may be. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 785 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, the quality of 785, the reproduction, seems to -be somewhat brighter or whiter than 773. Can you explain that? The -contrast seems sharper. - -Mr. COLE. Yes, that was purposely done in an effort to improve the -legibility of the handwriting shown on 773. It simply involves the -technique of developing the negative and making the print. It doesn't -add to or take anything away from 773. - -Representative FORD. It doesn't change the quality of the handwriting? - -Mr. COLE. No, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, could you please explain by reference to -785 and 784A, and B, and C, why you concluded that the author of the -standards reproduced in part on 784A, B, and C was also the author of -785? - -Mr. COLE. There is an agreement in details of the formation of letters -which I think are distinctive to this writer. - -In other words, it involves unusual departures from the conventional or -copybook method of forming letters. One example is the capital letter -"A" on 785 in the name "A. Hidell." The stroke on the left side of that -capital is first a down stroke, which is almost exactly retracted by an -upstroke. - -In other words, this is more than necessary to give the bare outline of -the letter, and this extra stroke is a characteristic of the standard -writing, and it may be observed in a number of places on the charts A, -B, and C. One place where it may be observed is on chart "C," item 8 in -the capital "A" in "Orleans." We have a downstroke on the left side of -the letter which is almost exactly retracted by the upstroke. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This downstroke starts just above the left side of the -bar across the "A," is that the downstroke you are referring to? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, that is correct. - -Representative FORD. Would that also be true in chart C, item 4, in the -"A" in "Harvey"? - -Mr. COLE. Yes. As a matter of fact, virtually every "A," capital "A" -produced in the standard writing has that feature. There are some few -that lack it, but it occurs often enough to show that it is a habit of -this writer, and it corresponds with the "A" shown on 785. - -Now, not all features of this writing are regarded as being useful -for identification. Some of the more simplified forms naturally have -less individuality. That would be true of the capital letter "H" in -"Hidell." While I don't see any significant difference, neither does -the letter have any identifying feature. - -When we pass over to the letter "i" though, in "Hidell," we see a -feature which is distinctive, and that is the emphasis on the first -stroke of the letter, the elongation of the approach stroke. Here again -is something which the writer does as a matter of habit, it is not an -essential feature for producing a legible "i." And we also have the -circumstance that most small letter "i's" show an increase in forehand -slant. Both of these features, the emphasis of an approach stroke and -the increase in forehand slant, are found in the standard writing. - -Representative FORD. Would you explain in lay terms what you mean by -"an increase in forehand slant"? - -Mr. COLE. A slant to the right. - -One place where that may be observed in the letter "i" is on chart A, -item 8, in the word "it." Another place where rather an exaggerated -effect of the elongation of the approach stroke may be observed is on -chart A, item 3, in the "t" of the "the." Of course, this requires a -similar movement as that used in producing the letter "i," and this -elongation of the approach stroke agrees with the effect found on 785. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, in chart A, item 8, the word "in" appears. Do -you see the same elongated approach stroke in that word? - -Mr. COLE. It is not elongated, but it is made somewhat with extra -pressure. We also have an instance of extra pressure on "i"--there -is a very small bulb of ink which indicates an extra pressure on the -beginning stroke. I might point that out as being a feature of the -approach stroke shown in the letter "t" on chart A, item 3. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Proceed. - -Mr. COLE. Now, I won't mention each and every letter in this writing. -When I pass over a letter, the meaning is that at that particular -point I don't find anything distinctive with respect to writing habit, -although at the same time I do not find any significant difference. - -I now move to the combination of "l," the double "l's" in "Hidell" in -785. Here we observe that the second "l" is somewhat larger than the -first, and we find from time to time in the standard writing where -there are a pair of "l's" that the second is larger than the first, one -example is chart A, item 5, the word "filled." - -In the capital letter "B" of the word "Box" on 785, still in the upper -left corner, we observe that the upper lobe of the "B," that is, the -closed circular form near the top of the letter, is somewhat smaller -than the lower lobe. These proportions I observed in the standard -writing, one item is found on chart A, item 9, "B" of "Board." - -In the capital "D" of "Dallas" on 785, the relationship of the capital -loop, I mean the looped form at the top of that capital letter, is -similar to that relationship which we found in "D's" of the standard -writing, one item being on chart B, item 2, in the abbreviation -"Dept.," and in that same item 2 the capital "D" of "D.C." along the -bottom line. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, on chart A-6 there is another initial "D." -Would you say that bears the same conformation? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; it is similar, although the loop is not complete. The -aspect of the cap loop, I would say, would be the same if the loop had -been completed. It is not as complete there as it is in other examples. - -In the word "Dallas," the terminal "s," still referring to 785, is -modified from the conventional or copybook method of making that letter -by being flattened out, forced far over on its side. In other words, -it has an extreme forehand slant rather than standing up in a more -vertical position which we would find in a copybook. The same is true -of the terminal "s" in the word "Texas" in that area. Now this, too, is -a habit found in the standard writings, one good example being chart B -at the end of item 3, the "s" of the word "this." - -In the word "Texas" a very distinctive method of forming the letter "x" -is observed. Now, this involves first the production, passing directly -from the letter "e" first the production of a point or cusp, and then -an underhand movement similar to that which would be required for the -letter "u," then with the pencil on the paper another point or cusp -is produced. The word is finished with the letters "as," and then the -cross bar is made in such a manner that it runs along the side of the -second cusp. In other words, the basic part of the "x" form, that is, -the part which is connected to the other writings, is somewhat in the -shape of a shallow "u." May I demonstrate that on a pad here? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Please, Mr. Cole. - -Mr. COLE. I have just drawn here an "x" diagraming the form observed on -785 which shows its production of a shallow "u" shape, with the cross -bar striking across the second point of that "u" shaped form. This, I -say, is highly distinctive, and it is found in the standard writing in -several places. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Pardon me. Mr. Chairman, may I introduce that diagram as -786? - -Representative FORD. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 786 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. COLE. This distinctive formation of the "x" is observed on chart B, -item 4, in the word "Texas," also in the same chart B, item 13, in the -word "Texas," and also item 12 on the same chart. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, did you say there was no pen lift after -finishing the second cusp, until the letters "as" are added? - -Mr. COLE. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that the "x" is not crossed, so to speak, until the -entire word is correct. - -Mr. COLE. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How distinctive would you regard this form as being? - -Mr. COLE. Well, I regard it as highly unusual and carrying a good deal -of weight for identification purposes, because it is a wide departure -from the copybook method or conventional method of making the letter, -and it involves the addition of a part rather than an omission which -might come from carelessness. - -Still considering Exhibit 785 and inspecting the word "Air" of "Air -mail," just under the stamp, I find a correspondence in the letter -forms with the standard writing. Chart B, item 5, where the same word -is reproduced, "Air." One distinctive feature there is the simplified -method of making the shoulder of the letter "r." Where the copybook or -conventional form would show first a point at the top of the "r" and -then the production of a rounded shoulder, this omits the point, form -and develops immediately into a rapidly sloping or curving down slope. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Will you illustrate the copybook form on your chart -paper, Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. The conventional or copybook form of this "r" would be -approximately in this manner: Cusp at the top, broad shoulder on the -right side. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have that admitted as 787, Mr. Chairman, the -copybook form of the "r"? - -Representative FORD. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 787 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. COLE. The letter "m" in "mail" in 785, with respect to the -unusually broad spread of the arches of that letter, corresponds with -the letter "m" on chart B, item 6, top line, in the word "me," where we -have a similar spreading of the width of the arches of the "m." - -The capital "K" in the word "Klein's" on 785 compares favorably with -"K's" in the standard writing, chart A, items 13 and 14. - -Again, this word "Klein's" demonstrates a habit on 785 of a somewhat -greater forehand slant for the letter "i," that is, as contrasted with -the slant observed for the letter "e," and it also shows this tendency -to flatten out or run the letter "s" along the writing lines, rather -than giving it a more vertical position, and this has already been -observed in the standard writing. The entire word "Dept." that is, the -abbreviation "Dept," on 785, compares favorably with that word as shown -on chart B, item 2, that is the same abbreviation, "Dept." - -I will mention specifically two details of the letter "p." One is that -it lacks an upper extension, which is a part shown in most copybook -forms. In other words, there is no part of the staff--which, of course, -is connected to the lower extension--which extends above the body of -that letter, and that is true both as between the questioned "p" on -785 and that shown on chart B, item 2, in the abbreviation of "Dept." -Another feature is the failure to bring the body in to a point where it -touches the staff, and this is a frequent feature in the "p's" in the -standard writing. Now, on chart B, not only in the abbreviation of the -word "Dept." in item 2, but moving down to consideration of item 3 and -the word "receipt," we observe a similar effect in the letter "p." - -In the letter "t," a distinctive feature is the abruptness of ending -that letter just before it reaches the writing line, which would differ -from other letters, which touch the writing line, and many of which -have a rising terminal stroke. In the questioned writing on 785 in "t" -of "Dept," and also in the "t" in the abbreviation of "street" in the -line below, we have just such a thing in the letter "t" which is shown -from time to time in the standard writing--one example being chart A, -item 13 in the abbreviation of "street." We have the same effect on -chart A, item 8, in the word "it." - -In the word "Washington" on 785, one distinctive feature is the curved -staff of the letter "g." In other words, there is a continuous curve -from the apex of the "g" down to the bottom of the lower extension, and -this method of treating a "g" is repeated in the standard writing, one -example being chart A, item 2, in the word "obligations." - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would that also be true in chart B, item 10, in the word -"Washington"? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; a very good example of it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, that item B-10 is spelled differently from the -standard, from the questioned document, rather. Does that--what is your -opinion as to that variation in spelling? - -Mr. COLE. There are a number of misspellings in the standard writings, -and sometimes in the standard you will find words repeated in a correct -spelling and at other times with an incorrect spelling. In other words, -there is a variation in that respect. I think it comes partly from -carelessness, not essentially from lack of knowledge of how to spell -the word. - -Representative FORD. These variations would be in the same letter or -the same document? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; sometimes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Actually there is an example of that in B-2, where -Washington is spelled incorrectly? - -Mr. COLE. That is correct. Now, in the combination of letters "cago" -just below the word "Washington" on 785, we also have a repetition of -this curved right side of the letter "g" found also in the standard -writing, and another feature worth noticing there is the closing of -the letter "o" rather far back on the upper left side of the letter. -This is distinctive because many writers are reluctant to make -leftward strokes, since the normal movement of handwriting is from -left to right, and this I would say represents a writing habit in the -questioned writing which is also repeated in the standard in a number -of places. Chart B, in the abbreviation "no," of item 10, that is, the -second segment of item 10, and also in the zero, item 11, you see a -similar method of closing that circular form far back on the left side -of the letter. - -Representative FORD. That would appear also in B-13 in the word "to"? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Is there a difference in B-15 "you"? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; there is, but we are dealing with a terminal form -in the questioned writing. In other words, the opportunities for -expressing this particular habit is present in terminal forms and not -medial forms, the forms inside a word. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you find generally or often that a writer's terminal -forms or beginning forms will differ from the forms inside of the--the -letters inside of the word? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; in that it gives a different opportunity for expression -of writing habit. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So is this an unusual--is this unusual, then that the -terminal form should be different? - -Mr. COLE. No; not at all. - -I invite attention to the exaggerated length of the comma following the -figure "6" on 785. This is repeated in the standard writing on chart -B, item 2, the comma following the word "chief." Also on chart B the -commas in items 1 and 9, following the word "Dallas." The double "l's" -of the abbreviation "Ill" on 785, again show the habit of making the -second "l" somewhat larger than the first, which was previously pointed -out as corresponding to the standard writing on chart A, item 5 in the -word "filled." - -The form of the capital letter "I" of "Ill" on 785 compares favorably -with that form as on on chart B, items 3 and 4 where we have the -personal pronoun "I." Now, moving now to the writing which is a part -of the order form bearing the name "Klein's" on this same Exhibit 785, -I will draw attention to the method of making the dollar sign before -the amount "19.95." In the copybook or conventional method of making -this particular sign the "=S=" shape is usually fairly prominent. In -other words, the crossbars are usually subordinated to the "=S=" shape. -Here we observe a very heavy pressure and exaggerated length and wide -spacing of those crossbars, which almost obliterate the "=S=" shaped -part of the dollar sign. This is shown in the standard writing chart B, -item 6, second line, the dollar sign preceding "$2." - -On this order form the figure "5" of the amount "$19.95" shows -an exaggerated length of the final stroke of the "5," I mean the -approximately horizontal stroke across the top of the letter. That same -habit was previously observed in the "5" of the combination "2915" at -the upper left of 785. Now, this method of--excuse me, let me mention -one more example of that letter "5" on 785. On the order form, the -figure "5" of the post office box number "2915" shows the same feature. -Moving now to the standard writing, we find that treatment of the -letter "5," of the figure "5," on chart B, item 7, in the combination -of figures "6225." It is also shown on chart B, item 1, in the -combination of figures "2915," and again in the same position, item 9 -of chart B. - -In the name "A. Hidell," I observe that we have a capital "H" and we -have capital forms of the "l's" but the remainder of the name uses -lower case letters, "ide" as lower case letters. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This is in the order blank again? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. This habit of using a combination of capital and -small letters is a habit in the standard writing. One example would -be chart C, item 6, where various words show a similar mixture. For -example, in the name "Oswald" we have capital forms for "O," "S," "W," -and "A," but a lower case letter for the "l" and "d." Dropping down to -the word "Mercedes," we have capital forms for "M," "R," "C," and "S," -but in that same word the letters "e" and "d" have lower case forms. -And this mixture of capitals and small letters, as I say is found -frequently in the standard writing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, is a mixture like that infrequent--apart from the -particular letters which you use as small or large letters? - -Mr. COLE. Well, I would say it is a part of this man's handwriting -habit to make such mixtures. Another person who might mix capital -and lower case forms might perhaps select different letters for that -purpose. In other words, I think in this writing we find that very -frequently as to the letter "i" and the letter "e." - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is the fact of mixture itself significant? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; it is a part of his writing habit. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How highly individualistic is the fact of mixture to -this person's writing? - -Mr. COLE. I regard it as having a fair weight. I wouldn't classify it -with the very considerable weight we give to that distorted form of the -"x" but I think it is just one more point for consideration with all of -the other similarities. - -A similar mixture is found in the word "Texas." Again referring to the -order form of 785, we have all capital letters except the letter "e," -and then moving over to the standard writing, see the word "Texas" on -chart C, item 1, the use of capital letters except as to the "e" form. - -Representative FORD. The same would be true, I gather, on C-7 in the -use of "e" in the word "Texas"? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. This combination of agreement in the details of -forms of letters, proportions, and other features between the writing -on Commission Exhibit 785 and various parts of the standard writing -constitute the basis for my opinion that the writings are in the hand -of the same person. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, in many cases you have either pointed to, or -it can be noted, that there are differences or variations within the -writing of the standards or in the writing of the questioned documents. -Is this unusual? - -Mr. COLE. No; as a matter of fact, it is usual to find variations -in handwriting, and, of course, that is demonstrated by the various -standard writing that we have here, where you find the same combination -of letters they are not identical with a photographic sameness, but -they have a range of variation. I would say that no part of the -questioned writing that we have considered on 785 would go outside of -that normal range of variation which is true in the standards. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you find any differences between 785--or 773, of -which 785 is a reproduction--and the standards? - -Mr. COLE. I don't find anything that I would regard as a significant -difference, but, of course, there are points where there is not a -perfect identity. For example, in the combination of letters "Ill." an -abbreviation for Illinois, while we don't have that same abbreviation -in the standards, we have got the full name written out on chart B, -item 5, and item 14. We have a smooth curved connection between the "I" -and the following "l" in those particular parts of the standard, but -there is an angular connection on 785 between the same letters. That is -a difference or variation, but I don't regard it as necessarily being a -significant one. It could be merely an accidental feature, a momentary -hesitation on 785 before proceeding into the making of the "l." - -Mr. EISENBERG. Why don't you conclude on the basis of that difference -that the questioned document was written by a different author than the -standard documents? - -Mr. COLE. Because it is not nearly enough to raise such a question. -There would be required for an opinion that this was made by some other -person, a similar body of differences corresponding to the similarities -that I have talked about. In other words, if in fact this was in the -handwriting of some other person, I would expect to be able to make -about the same demonstration with respect to differences as I have -already made with regard to similarity. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you need to find as many differences as -similarities in order to say there was a different author involved in -the questioned and standard? - -Mr. COLE. No; depending upon the character of the differences. A fairly -small number would prevent a conclusion of identity or show the hand of -some other person, if they were really distinctive differences. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, did you find any evidence in 773 that the -author attempted to disguise his handwriting? - -Mr. COLE. Were you referring to 785? - -Mr. EISENBERG. 785 is a reproduction of 773. You can use 785 to answer -the question, yes. - -Mr. COLE. There is one faint suggestion of that possibility. It doesn't -permit a conclusion that that was the purpose. But I refer to the use -of a lower case "t" in the word "texas" in the return address in the -upper left corner. Since this writer demonstrates a good knowledge -about the formation of capital letters, it is possible that the choice -to make a lower case "t" was a deliberate one, and it could have been -at that particular point for the purpose of disguise. But I say if that -was his purpose, it certainly was not maintained, and would be a very -faint effort toward disguise. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, do you consider it unusual for a person to use -an alias without attempting to disguise his handwriting? - -Mr. COLE. No; I would not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you had any experience along those lines? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; I have observed a number of aliases where there is no -particular effort to disguise. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In your capacity as questioned document examiner of -the Treasury Department, do you receive for examination checks, the -endorsements on which have been forged? - -Mr. COLE. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And on any occasion does the endorsement, the forged -endorsement, does the forged endorsement indicate that no effort, no -attempt has been made to disguise the endorsements? - -Mr. COLE. That is a rather frequent condition, that the spurious -endorsement is made without an attempt to conceal or disguise writing -habit or to imitate the writing of any other person. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, do you know on the basis of your experience -whether individuals ever resort to handprinting as an attempt at -disguise? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; it is a rather frequent method of disguise. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you testified earlier that handprinting can be -identified as to author? - -Mr. COLE. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is this common knowledge, that is to say---- - -Mr. COLE. It is common knowledge among document examiners. I don't -think it is common knowledge among others. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Might a layman attempt to disguise his handwriting -simply by resorting to undisguised handprinting? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; he might. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What are the usual evidences of disguise, by the way, -Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. Well, in cursive handwriting the usual evidences of disguise -involve some unnaturalness, such as a reduction of writing speed, and -other distortions such as writing very large, with an exaggerated -freedom, where parts of letters of various words are run together; such -as an exaggerated length of lower extensions and upward extensions -which tends to intermingle forms and make it difficult to see the -details of them; or writing very small, in almost microscopic size -where, again, the width of a pen stroke itself tends to conceal -details of handwriting; alterations of slant, such as a person who -normally writes a forehand slant or slanting to the right, changing to -a vertical or a backhand slant. Most efforts at disguise are not well -planned. They usually involve a determination to alter the writing -along one particular line such as writing very large, very small, or a -change in the slant. Other features are the simplification of letter -forms. For example, a person attempting to conceal a writing habit may -feel that his writing habit is revealed mostly by capital letters so -you might have him using printed forms for capitals, but cursive forms -for most other letters. - -Representative FORD. Can you tell the difference between a right-handed -and a left-handed person by either cursive or capital letters? - -Mr. COLE. No, sir; not definitely. Left-handed writers tend to write -more vertically, and for that particular left-hand writer who holds -his hand above the writing line, this gives a reversal of the pressure -on what would ordinarily be regarded as upstrokes and downstrokes, and -when you see that reversal this is an indication of left-hand writing. -But it is only when you have that special circumstance that you get -that signal about it. - -Representative FORD. Is there anything in any of the writings that -you have analyzed of Lee Harvey Oswald of an indication that he was -left-handed? - -Mr. COLE. Well, I wouldn't say that I could make a determination of -whether he was left-handed or right-handed. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, in your expert work do you draw a distinction -between a spurious and a forged document? - -Mr. COLE. Well, I think of the word "forgery" as having that legal -connotation of malice or intent. The production of a false writing with -an intention to deceive or defraud somebody else. Spurious writing -means a false writing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is, a writing produced by one hand calculated to -look as if it had been produced by another? - -Mr. COLE. Well, not necessarily, that situation that you just discussed -would involve simulation of the person's, another person's writing. But -the word "spurious" could refer to a false writing, the writing of the -name of one person by another who had no particular right to do it. -But, of course, if the element of an intent to defraud is not there, I -suppose in a legal sense it is not forgery. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, what are the elements which you look for to see -whether a person, A, has attempted to reproduce the handwriting of -another person, B, with intent to deceive or otherwise? - -Mr. COLE. Two categories of differences. One, defects of line -quality, by which is meant tremor, waver, patching, retouching, and -noncontinuous lines, pen lifts in awkward and unusual places. And the -other class of differences is details of the forms of letters, by which -I mean that when the person attempting to simulate another writing -concentrates upon the reproduction of one detail, he is likely not to -see other details. He may, for example, be able to imitate the gross -form of a letter but he may get proportions wrong or letter connections -wrong. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is the probability that person A could imitate the -handwriting of person B without leaving a telltale trace in one of -these two categories? - -Mr. COLE. I think it is only a very remote possibility. But I would add -to that the need for having a fairly extensive specimen of writing. -Of course the possibility of a successful simulation is better with -smaller specimens of writing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, did you find any evidence in either category that -a person had attempted to simulate the writing of the author of the -standards in this case in producing either 773 or any of the other -questioned documents which you examined? - -Mr. COLE. No; I did not find such indications. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you feel, did you say, there would be only a remote -probability that in the absence of such indication such a simulation -could exist? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say remote, could you put this in terms of -figures? - -Mr. COLE. I would say there is no reasonable possibility of it, and I -will put it this way: That from my study of these documents, there is -no particular element or elements of the handwriting that I can point -to and say this could be evidence of simulation. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You mentioned before that you need to have a sufficient -amount of writing to make that type of determination. Do you feel that -the questioned documents provided a sufficient amount of writing for -that? - -Mr. COLE. They do. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that individually or collectively? - -Mr. COLE. Individually. - -Representative FORD. All of the illustrations on 784 A, B, and C are -taken from Commission exhibits---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. 774-783. - -Representative FORD. Collectively? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Carrying that question forward, on what basis did you -select excerpts from 774 to 783 to reproduce 784 A, B, and C? - -Mr. COLE. The chief effort was to collect together in a fairly small -space items that were appropriate for comparison through repetition of -the same material, and in doing that there was kept in mind the general -purpose of giving a good representative cross section of all of the -writing habit illustrated in the standard writings. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, that anticipates my next question, which is, -whether this is a representative cross section or was selected in -order to reproduce those particular characteristics you find in the -questioned documents. - -Mr. COLE. I think it is a representative cross section, and I say a -part of the effort was to bring here some letters and combinations for -convenience of comparison. It was in no way an effort to substitute -these charts for the originals. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Your actual examination was made on the basis of the -originals or the charts, Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; all of the--the chief examination was made upon the -basis of the originals and all parts of the originals, not limited to -the parts shown in the charts. - -Mr. EISENBERG. These charts are only for demonstrative purposes, making -your testimony easier to follow, is that correct? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You discussed briefly, Mr. Cole, or perhaps more than -briefly, the use of a photograph as a standard. Now, in the case -of 773, a photograph is used as a questioned document, or rather a -questioned document consists of a photograph. Are the comments you -made on the use of a photograph as a standard applicable to the use -of a photograph as a questioned document, that is, can you make a -determination on the handwriting in a photograph? - -Mr. COLE. With these photographs I think a satisfactory determination -can be made. I would not necessarily include all photographs. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes? - -Mr. COLE. Because there is a widely varying quality in photographs. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say these photographs, do you include the other -photographs included among the questioned documents you have examined -at my request? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, I now hand you an item consisting of a U.S. -postal money order in the amount of $21.45, payable to Klein's Sporting -Goods, from "A. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Texas." For the record I -will state that this money order was included with the purchase order -in Exhibit 773 which has just been identified, and was intended and -used as payment for the weapon shipped in response to the purchase -order, 773. I ask you, Mr. Cole, whether you have examined this money -order for the purpose of determining whether it was prepared by the -author of the standards? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion, Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. It is my conclusion that the handwriting on this money order -is in the hand of the person who executed the standard writing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this money order admitted as -788? - -Representative FORD. It may be admitted. - -(The document was marked as Commission Exhibit No. 788, and was -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you prepared a photograph of that Exhibit 788, the -money order? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you have produced that photograph for me just now, -Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was this prepared by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is it an accurate photograph of 788? - -Mr. COLE. It is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May this be admitted as 789, Mr. Chairman? - -Representative FORD. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 789, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, before you discuss your conclusion, the -handwriting on 788 seems to have a slight blur in some parts. Could you -explain that in any way? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; it is my view that this document has been in contact -with moisture which affected the ink of the handwriting. Such contact -might have been through an effort to develop fingerprints. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was it or is it discolored at this point at all, do you -think? - -Mr. COLE. There are only two small areas of discoloration on this -document, one of them being along the upper edge just above the figure -"9," and the other along the right edge just opposite the figure "5." -This indicates to me that at one time this document was more deeply -stained but has been cleared up by some chemical bleach. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was it in the same condition when you examined it as it -is now? - -Mr. COLE. It was. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, would you explain by use of charts 784 A, B, -and C, and the photograph 789, why you conclude 788 was prepared by the -author of the standards in this case? - -Mr. COLE. On the photograph, 789, I invite attention to the capital -"K" of "Klein's," which compares favorably in form to the "K's" of -exhibit--of chart A, items 13 and 14, with the exception of a larger -circle at the center of that "K" on the right side of 789, which is not -reproduced in the standards, but it is my belief that this writer might -well produce such a circular form when a letter is somewhat larger and -more freely made. - -Mr. EISENBERG. On what do you base that belief, Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. That that would be a normal result of greater freedom and a -larger writing, it would produce a circular form rather than an angle. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is this based upon your experience with questioned -documents and making analyses? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; now, in that---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me 1 second. Just to elaborate on that. Do I take -it that your experience is such that you have found you can predict -forms of letters based upon the samples you have before you, predict -forms which may be used in other samples by the same author? - -Mr. COLE. Well, within certain narrow limits. That is, having -information about the range of variation in the body of standard -writing, it is reasonable to make a small allowance for the production -of forms not actually illustrated there, as long as they are consistent -with the forms that are actually available for examination. In other -words, I would regard it as a consistent thing in this writing to -occasionally produce a circle at the center portion of a letter "K"; it -does not, in my opinion, represent a difference of writing habit. - -Now, in that same word we observe a habit heretofore mentioned of -increasing the amount of forehand slant, in the letter "i"--that is in -"Klein's" of the photograph 789--which has previously been observed -in the standard writing. Several examples have been pointed out. For -the present, I will mention the one on chart A, item 1 in the word -"obligations," the second letter "i" there shows an increased forehand -slant. The same is true of the "i" of the word "firm" on the same line. - -The combination of letters in the word "sporting," that is, the -combination "port," are illustrated in the standard writing, chart A, -item 2 in the word "support," item 3 in the word "port," in item 4 in -the word "transportation," and here we find very close agreement in -all details of those letter forms. With respect to the letter "p," -the absence of an under extension, that is, the absence of any part -rising above the arched part of the letter on the writing line, and the -circumstance that the body of the letter or arch, as it is shown here -on the photograph 789, is not brought all the way into the staff, it is -made almost as a pure arch form with no movement in here towards the -staff, which is the same movement we have here on chart A, item 3 in -the word "port," repeated also on item 4, and in the two "p's" of item -2. Now, there is a distinctive method of making the connection between -the letters "o" and "r," by drawing a very straight line, horizontal -line almost exactly paralleling the base of the word across from the -letter "o" to the "r" on the photograph 789, and this movement is also -repeated on chart A, items 3 and 4, in the combination letters "or" -also in item 2 in the same combination of letters. - -This writing demonstrates the habit in the figure "5" of a considerable -exaggeration of the final stroke of the letter, or the cap stroke, a -horizontal stroke at the top of the letter observed on the photograph -789, and shown in several places in the standard writing, some of which -have already been mentioned, one being on chart C, item 7, and on chart -B, items 1 and 9, the figure "5." - -Also in this writing, we find that highly distinctive "x" form in the -word "Texas," involving the production of a shallow =U=-shaped form -with the crossbar passing across the second point of that =U=-shaped -form for the word "Texas." This is the basis for my conclusion that the -questioned writing on the money order is in the hand of the author of -the standard writing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, I now hand you Commission Exhibit 135, which, -for the record, consists of the purchase order to Seaport Traders from -"A. Hidell" for the revolver which was used in the murder of Officer -Tippit. - -Mr. Cole, have you examined Commission Exhibit 135 to determine whether -it was produced by the author of the standards in this case? - -Mr. COLE. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is your conclusion? - -Mr. COLE. It is my conclusion that this handwriting is in the hand of -the person who produced the standard writing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you taken a photograph of 135? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you produce that, please? - -Was this photograph prepared by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is it an accurate reproduction of 135? - -Mr. COLE. It is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have that admitted as 790? - -Representative FORD. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 790, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, could you explain your reasons for your -conclusion by reference to the charts 784 A, B, and C, and to the -photograph, 790? - -Mr. COLE. On the photograph 790 I invite attention to the first line -of handprinting, which has a long horizontal line drawn through it. -Toward the ends of that line there is an amount which appears to read -"$1.35," and I draw attention to the form of the dollar sign, which -sign has already been mentioned in other writing, and here we find that -same feature of subordinating the =S= part of the dollar sign to the -crossbars, the crossbars being, or the verticals being made in such a -way as to practically obliterate the =S=-shaped part. There, again, -that is a feature of writing habit of the author of the writing on 790 -which corresponds with the habit in the standard writing shown on chart -B, item 6, second line, in the amount "$2.00." - -Next, I draw your attention, in the approximate area as that just -discussed on 790 there, to the amount "29.95." Now, with respect to the -form of the figure "2" we observe a rounded cap or top to the letter -and a rather prominent loop to the base, and it is observed that the -leftward extension of the cap of the letter is considerably short of -the amount of leftward motion across the base. This corresponds to the -form and placement of parts as shown in the standard writing chart B, -item 1, in the combination "2915." - -In that same amount, on the photograph 790, again we observe the -exaggerated length of the cap of the figure "5" which corresponds to -the standard writing, chart B, item 1, the figure "5" there. - -The dollar sign which was previously described is repeated in the -amount "$10.00" on the left side of the photograph 790, and I believe -that the treatment of the verticals there is the same, that is, -an unusually heavy pressure, but it appears that the pen was not -delivering a normal quantity of ink at that point. Nevertheless, there -is this same effect of almost obliterating the =S=-shaped part of the -dollar sign. - -Now, moving on down to the bottom part of the photograph 790, and -considering first the form of the "B" in the word "Box" on the address -line, here again we observe that tendency of a fairly small upper lobe -relative to the size of the lower lobe of the "B," and this is repeated -in the standard writing, one place being chart B, item 1, in the "B" of -"Box." - -The word "DALLAS" on the photograph 790 shows capital "L's" which have -a compound curve across the base: that is, instead of a simplified form -of letter, where there would be a simple straight line across the base, -we have first a rising stroke and then a stroke that curves downward -towards the writing line. This compound curve across the base of "L's" -is repeated in the standard writing, chart B, item 1 and 9, in the same -word "DALLAS." - -Again, on the photograph 790, the second letter "A" in "DALLAS" -illustrates a habit previously mentioned of using a downstroke to begin -the left side of the "A," which stroke is almost exactly traced, and -this too is repeated in the standard, chart B, item 1, the second "A" -of "DALLAS." Opposite the printed word "State" on photograph 790, the -word "Texas" again shows this mixture of capital forms and lower-case -forms, specifically the use of a lower case "e" in combination with -capital letters, which is true in the standard writing, chart B, items -1 and 9, in the word "Texas." - -This constitutes my reasons for believing that the questioned writing -shown in the photograph 790 is in the hand of the author of the -standard writing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, there seems to be a very varying amount of -blackness or color in the ink on Commission Exhibit 135, which is shown -up in your photograph. Do you have any explanation for that? - -Mr. COLE. I think the pen was not functioning properly, that very heavy -pressure was used on the document to bring the ink down from the pen, -and we can see that the writer is reacting to this, for example, in the -word "Box" on the address line, where you have only a moderate quantity -of ink and then as you move along to the figures "2915" you observe -that heavier pressure is used. In other words, it is my view that the -writer observed that the pen was tending to fail, and that he increased -pressure in order to persuade more ink to come down from the pen. - -Mr. EISENBERG. There also seems to be a doubling of lines in some -parts, such as the "J" in "A. J. Hidell," and the upper area also of -"A. J. Hidell." - -Mr. COLE. Yes; that could very well be for the same reasons, because if -you move to the upper part of this exhibit there are other places where -the pen almost failed. You have strokes that have a shallow center with -ink only on the outside borders of strokes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, can you make out the writing which is printed -in and then crossed out in this exhibit? - -Mr. COLE. Well, a part of it. - -Just below the printed word "Snubbie" there appears to be a line of -writing which says, "1 AMMO," if that is "A-M-M-O"--the second "M" is -somewhat indistinct. And then there is parenthesis, BOX of 25, close -parenthesis, dollar mark, 1.35. Then just below that there is a line of -writing, the first word of which I cannot make out, that is, I cannot -make any intelligible word of it, but the second word appears to be -"holster." In other words, the word "holster" would lie just above the -words "total price" and then there follows some figures which appear to -be "1.95." - -Representative FORD. Is it your judgment on this exhibit that at the -point where the applicant is required to give his age that it is "23" -or "28"? - -Mr. COLE. I would read that as "28." - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you make out the date which is next to that age, Mr. -Cole? - -Mr. COLE. Well, I read the first part of the date as 1/27, and I am -unable to read the last figure, which is through a part of the very -heavy dotted line. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do there seem to be one or two figures? - -Mr. COLE. It looks like a single figure there following a diagonal. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Representative FORD. Back on the record. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, I now hand you an item consisting of part of -an application for a post office box, dated "box opened October 9, -1962," and also dated in the lower right "October 9, 1962," with the -signature "Lee H. Oswald" and I ask you whether you have examined that -item? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have that admitted as 791, Mr. Chairman? - -Representative FORD. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 791 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you compared it with the standards in this case, -Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is your conclusion? - -Mr. COLE. It is my conclusion that the handprinted name "Lee H. -Oswald," the address "3519 Fairmore Ave.," and the signature "Lee H. -Oswald" on this document are in the hand of the person who executed the -standard writing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you prepared a photograph of 791? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you produce that? - -Thank you. Is this photograph which you have handed me an accurate -reproduction prepared by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 792? - -Representative FORD. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 792 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Representative FORD. Continue. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Before we go any further, what is your conclusion -concerning the words "Dallas, Texas" appearing after "Fairmore Ave."? - -Mr. COLE. It is my conclusion that that wording is not in the writing -of the author of the standard writing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that in "2915"? - -Mr. COLE. That is not in the handwriting of the author of the standards. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have any idea who inserted that? - -Mr. COLE. No, sir; I don't but I think in the handling of this kind of -material it happens from time to time that a postal clerk may complete -a document. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, with reference to 792 and 784 A, B, and C, could -you explain the reasons for concluding that 791 is in the handwriting -of the author of the standards as to those portions which you have -designated as being in the handwriting of the author of the standards? - -Mr. COLE. In the printed name at the upper left of the photograph 792 -the capital "L" of "Lee" shows a compound curve across the base, which -has previously been mentioned as a handwriting habit found in the -standards, one example being on chart B, item 9, another example on -chart C, item 4. - -The name "Oswald" shows the use of capital forms except for the letters -"ld." This particular use of a mixture of capitals and lower-case forms -is found on chart C, item 1, at the top line where the final forms "l" -and "d" are lower case forms. - -I will mention also the particular writing movement used for -constructing the letter "d," referring to the photograph 792. There is -first a moderately long downstroke, and then without lifting the pen -there is a rising movement which at the same time moves towards the -left to complete the body of the letter. This method of construction -is also observed in the standards, chart C, item 1, top line, in the -"d" of "Oswald." Since there is a slightly more open effect at the base -in this standard "d," the method of construction can be seen clearly, -but it was made in the same way in the photograph, as shown by the -photograph 792. - -In the word "Fairmore," it is observed that on the photograph 792 there -is a tendency to reduce the size of the small letter "i" and, of -course, this is again an example of the use of the lower case form in -combination with the capitals. The size relationship and the particular -mixture of this form with capitals is shown in the standard writing -chart C, item 5, in the word "deportations" and in the word "diet," -also in item 9 in the word "curtailment." - -The word "Fairmore" also shows the use of a lower case "e" in -combination with capital letters, which has been observed frequently -in several parts of the standard writing, one example not mentioned -heretofore is item 3 of chart C in the word "discharge." - -The signature "Lee H. Oswald" along the lower line shown by the -photograph 792 compares favorably in all details with the signatures in -the name of "Lee H. Oswald" in several standard charts, being on chart -A, item 15; on chart B, again item 15; also on chart B, item No. 1; and -on chart C, item 6, the next to the last line. Now, one distinctive -feature of this signature is the writing movement employed in the -combination of letters capital "O" and the "s" following, where the -"s" form is rather blurred or corrupted. It does not give a complete -capital "s" form, but instead the upper part of the "s" is represented -only by a line which is approximately horizontal, sinking downwards to -the base of the "s," and then a looped form at the base. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You said a capital "s" form; did you mean that? - -Mr. COLE. No; I meant that it is not a complete "s" form. It is -somewhat slurred or blurred with respect to a true "s" form. This -particular method of slurring the form is clearly illustrated on chart -B, item 1, in the name "Oswald" and is also shown on chart B, item 15, -in the name "Oswald." - -(At this point Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. COLE [continuing]. In the signature shown by the photograph 792, in -the capital "L," we observe with regard to the base loop, this would -be the lower half of the letter, we see a vertical aspect of that base -loop. Now, in a more conventional or, say, a copybook form of a letter -"L" you would find the base loop with a horizontal aspect, that is, -stretched out along the writing line. Here we find a vertical aspect of -that part, which is reproduced in the standard writing on chart A, item -15. - -That last reference was to the base loop of the capital "L" of the -signature "Lee H. Oswald" as shown by the photograph 792 as compared -with chart A, item 15. - -Now on the photograph 792, we observe that between the two upright -strokes of the letter "H" there is a very thin diagonal line of -joining. This is repeated in the standard writing, chart B, item 1, top -line. Now, again in this "H" as shown on 792 we see this more or less -vertical aspect of the treatment of a looped formation near the base of -the right side of the letter "H," that is, instead of moving fully to -the left to give a normal cross bar, there is only a base loop there -which, I say, is made in a vertical direction. This is repeated in the -standard writing, chart A, item 15, in the middle initial "H." - -The "w" of "Oswald" shown by the photograph 792 is characterized by a -rather full rounding across the base of the letter, and this degree of -roundness is shown in the standard writing, chart B, item 15. There is -a horizontal stroke which constitutes the letter connection between -"w" and "a" shown by the photograph 792, and this method of making a -connection is repeated in the standards, chart B, item 15. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You say "w" and "a"? - -Mr. COLE. "w" and "a". - -The size relationship between the letter "l" and the letter "d" as -shown by the photograph 792 is the same as that found on chart A, item -15. The relationship of the body of the "d"--by which I mean that part -which would ordinarily rest on the writing line, and in a conventional -form would be more or less circular--and the upper extension is also -similar as between the photograph 792 and chart A, item 15. In other -words, there is practically no roundness of the body. Again, we have -got an emphasis of the more or less vertical strokes for what should be -a rounded portion for the body. - -This constitutes my reasons for believing that the questioned writing -as shown by the photograph 792 is in the hand of the person who -executed the standard writing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Any further questions on this application? - -Representative FORD. No questions. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole. I now hand you an item consisting of a -change-of-address card addressed to the "Postmaster, Dallas, Texas," -dated May 12, 1963, relating to Post Office Box 2915 in Dallas, -Tex., setting forth a new address at Magazine Street, New Orleans, -and signed "Lee H. Oswald," and I ask you if you have examined that -change-of-address card? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May this be admitted as 793, Mr. Chairman? - -Representative FORD. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 793 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you compared that change-of-address card, 793, with -the standards in this case? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is your conclusion? - -Mr. COLE. It is my conclusion that the author of the writing on Exhibit -793 is the same person who executed the standard writings. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you prepare a photograph of 793? - -Mr. COLE. I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you produce that? - -Is this an accurate photograph, an accurate reproduction, of 793, -prepared by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may this be admitted as 794? - -Representative FORD. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 794 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. By reference to the photograph 794 and reference to your -charts 784 A, B, and C, could you discuss the reasons which led you to -your conclusion concerning this change-of-address card? - -Mr. COLE. Handwriting habits shown by this exhibit, and I am looking -now at the photograph 794, have been mentioned heretofore. If it is -agreeable, I will simply review these in a body before proceeding to -the standard writing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, is that agreeable? - -Representative FORD. You may proceed. - -Mr. COLE. On line 1, shown by the photograph 794, the use of a lower -case "l" and "d" in combination with capital letters, the compound -curve across the base of the "L" in "Lee," the exaggerated length of -the comma between the two names; below, in the word "BOX," the somewhat -larger upper lobe of the capital "B"--excuse me, the somewhat smaller -upper lobe of the capital "B" as contrasted with the larger lobe of -that letter; in the "O" of "BOX" the connection or the closing of the -"O" fairly high on the left side instead of towards the center or the -right side, the same habit being also illustrated in the "O" in the -combination "P.O."; the form of the "2" with the rather prominent base -loop; the exaggerated length of the cap of the figure "5"; in the -word "Dallas," the compound curve across the base of the "L"s; the -circumstance that the "A" begins with a down stroke which is almost -exactly retraced; the circumstance that the word "Texas" includes a -lower case "e"; the use of the small letter "i" in combination with -capital letters in the word "Magazine"; and similar features to those -just described in the word "New Orleans." - -Now, all of these things on the charts Exhibit A, B, and C - -Mr. EISENBERG. I don't think you need to point to them in detail, since -you have already pointed to those items. - -Mr. COLE. Yes. - -I also find a substantial agreement in details of the signature, "Lee -H. Oswald," as shown by the photograph 794, and signatures shown in the -standard writing, with particular regard to the signature of chart C, -item 6, next to the last line. - -This constitutes my reasons for believing that the writing on -Commission Exhibit 793 is in the hand of the person who made the -standard writing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, there seems to be a double line in several of -these letters on the reverse side of this change-of-address card, such -as the "D" in "DALLAS," the "e" in "Texas" and so forth. Can you give -any explanation for that? - -Mr. COLE. Well, I think the double line is more evident in the address -"4907 Magazine Street, New Orleans, La." - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes? - -Mr. COLE. And a possible reason is that the writer was dissatisfied -with the width of the line as shown on the two lines above. While I -regard it as having a fair legibility, the only explanation I can -see is that for this particular document the writer wanted a heavier -writing and, of course, one way to get it is to go over it again. - -A thing of this kind can also be related to a writer's knowledge of the -functioning of a certain pen. - -If he knows that the pen he is using usually gives a heavier line, and -for a particular writing he sees a thinner line, he may then make some -modification in his handling of the pen and get the kind of line he -wants. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is this similar to the retouching you mentioned earlier -as being an evidence of forgery? - -Mr. COLE. I would say no, since it is done in such an apparently -spontaneous and confident manner. There is not the slightest evidence -that any effort was made to conceal the presence of this retracing. -I think I should say that generally the person producing a false or -spurious writing does retouching in order to correct some imperfection -of a letter, that is, he criticizes his work as he goes along and if he -encounters a part which he thinks is incorrect with respect to form, he -may then retouch it in order to correct it. It would be very unusual in -any false or spurious writing to see any extensive retracing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Any further questions on this card? - -Representative FORD. No further questions. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, I now hand you an item which appears to be a -selective service system notice of classification with the name "Alek -James Hidell" printed and the same signature, and a photograph which -appears to be the photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald--and I state for the -record that this item was obtained from the wallet of Lee Harvey Oswald -following his apprehension after the assassination and the murder of -Officer Tippit--and I ask you whether you have examined that item? - -Mr. COLE. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May that be admitted as 795, Mr. Chairman? - -Representative FORD. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 795 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. When did you first examine that item, Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. May I refer to a note? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, certainly. - -Mr. COLE. I first saw that item on December 6, 1963. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you make an examination at that time? - -Mr. COLE. I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. At whose request was that? - -Mr. COLE. At the request of the Chief, U.S. Secret Service. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion at that time? - -Mr. COLE. It was my conclusion that that is not an original document -but that it is in fact a photographic reproduction of some original -document. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you draw any conclusions as to how the reproduction -might have been prepared? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; it was my conclusion that a photograph was made of some -original document, and that the resulting film negative was retouched -for the purpose of blocking out certain parts, and by that I mean that -the person processing a negative in this way would take an opaque -compound and where you had clear areas of the negative, the negative, -of course, showing clear areas where there was black on the original, -that he would cover up this clear area of the negative so that in a -resulting print nothing would come through. This would be a way of -eliminating information which was actually on the original document. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Such as the name of the person to whom the document had -been issued? - -Mr. COLE. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Draft board and so forth? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; then a print would be made of that retouched negative, -and this, I believe, is such a print. - -Mr. EISENBERG. There is information on this item consisting of the name -"Alek James Hidell," a selective service number, and so forth. Could -you draw any conclusion as to how this information had been put into -the item if the card was prepared in this way? - -Senator COOPER. What information, do you mean the name? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; the name "Alek James Hidell," the selective service -number, the date of mailing, the signature of the member or clerk -of local board, color of eyes, and so forth, all of the information -appearing in print or color on the card. - -Mr. COLE. That information was typed directly onto the photographic -print which is Exhibit---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is 795? - -Mr. COLE. 795. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does this item consist of one or two photographic -prints, Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. There are two photographic prints, one for the front and one -for the back, and they are pasted together. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is it on ordinary photographic paper? - -Mr. COLE. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is there evidence that more than one typewriter had been -used in inserting the signature---- - -Mr. COLE. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me, the name, and some of the other information -which I have referred to? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, at least two typewriters were used. This may be seen -clearly by the record of the selective service number, which includes a -fairly light typewriting and then a heavier typewriting. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you produced a photograph of Exhibit 795 or have -you taken a photograph rather? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you produce that? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Thank you. Was this photograph prepared by you or under -your supervision? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is it a true and accurate reproduction of 795? - -Mr. COLE. It is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May this be admitted as 796? - -Representative FORD. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 796 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. This is the front of 795, is it, Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you also taken a photograph of the rear, the -reverse side? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This was prepared by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is it a true and accurate photograph? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May this be admitted as Exhibit 797? - -Representative FORD. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 797 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have extra copies of that? - -Mr. COLE. I am sorry; I do not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you hold these photographs so that the Commission -can see them, and illustrate your point concerning the use of more than -one typewriter? - -Mr. COLE. The selective service number shows typewriting which has a -fairly light deposit of ink from the ribbon. It also shows typewriting -with a somewhat heavier deposit. Now, there is a clear difference in -the design of the figure "4" which shows that two different typewriters -were used. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you think of any reason why that might have been -done, why two different typewriters were used? - -Mr. COLE. Well, here again the typewriter shown by the typewriter -impression has a rather poor legibility and it is my theory that a -person producing typing of such limited legibility might well move the -job over to another typewriter having a more heavily inked ribbon. -I might say also that it is quite difficult to type on this glossy -photographic paper. The ink won't come down from the ribbon nearly as -well on such a surface as it does on ordinary bond paper. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you have also reproduced the back, the reverse -side, of 795 in your photograph 797. Is the typewriting on the back, -illustrated in 797, that contained in the light-impression typewriter -shown on the front, or the heavy-impression typewriter? - -Mr. COLE. The lighter impression. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You can tell that how, Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. Well, it is illustrated, first of all, by the extremely small -deposit of ink, and second by the circumstance that we can see the same -design of figure "4" in a part of the address between this frame, which -is the design of the figure "4" of the lighter typewriting on the face -of the document. - -Senator COOPER. Could I ask you, is it correct that the typewriter -which you say was used, which gave a light impression, the "4" is -closed at the apex? - -Mr. COLE. That is correct. - -Senator COOPER. And the heavier typewriter which was used which -produced the "4," the "4" is open at the apex? - -Mr. COLE. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Carrying that question forward, the reverse side shows -the "4" closed at the apex, does it not? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. There seems to be some erasure under the name "Alek -James Hidell" which is typewritten in the front side, as well as a -faint letter or two. Did you draw any conclusions as to that material? - -Mr. COLE. Well, in this area there is also in addition to typewriting -already mentioned, there is evidence of a rather sharp indentation of -typewritten material, which could result from the blow of a typewriter -key against this paper without the interposition of any ribbon at all. -Most typewriters have an adjustment called "stencil" whereby you can -prevent the ribbon from coming up in front of the type bar, and there -is a complete line of indentations along there which reads "Alek James -Hidell," and one very interesting feature is that just to the left of -the indented name "Alek" there is a capital letter "O." - -I don't say at that particular point there was any completion of a name -following the letter "O" but we do have this clear indentation of the -letter "O." - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you prepared a photograph which brings out those -details a little more clearly than in the original, 795? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; I have. This photograph was made by a very low -angle of illumination, a raking light across the document which shows -up the indentations. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This was prepared by you and under your supervision? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. It is a true and accurate reproduction of 795? - -Mr. COLE. It is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May this be admitted as 798? - -Representative FORD. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit 798 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Senator COOPER. Could I ask a question? You referred to an indentation -representing the letter "O." Could you point that out and indicate the -exhibit upon which you identified the letter "O"? - -Mr. COLE. Here. I point to an area approximately two typewriter spaces -on the left of the visible letter "A" of "Alek." - -Senator COOPER. On Commission Exhibit 795? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; correct. - -Senator COOPER. Were you able to determine whether that indentation -representing "O" was made by a typewriter or does it represent a letter -which was still visible from the original card of selective service -classification? - -Mr. COLE. That is a typewritten letter "O," sir. I think that nothing -is visible on that line from the original. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Referring to your photograph, 798, there seems to -be--the word "James" seems to be printed more than once, as does the -name "Hidell," in stencil. Is that your observation, Mr. Cole, also? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; that is true. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any other material that was printed in stencil, -on the stencil setting, of the typewriter? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; there is a writing of the serial number which is also in -stencil form. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Anything else? We are referring now just to the front of -the card. - -Mr. COLE. Yes. The date of mailing also shows an indentation. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you think of any reason why the use of the -typewriter on stencil may have been done? - -Mr. COLE. I can mention reasons that I have observed on other documents -which might apply to this one, and that would be an effort on the part -of the operator of the machine to find a correct place for beginning -typewriting, but I am obliged to say that on those other examples I -have never seen such extensive stenciled writing. I would say that a -single letter should give a person a pretty good idea of the position -for beginning writing, and it should not be necessary to write out this -material in full. - -Now another theory for applying indentations to this type of material -might be, say, previous experience with trying to write on a glossy -surface, and knowing that you don't get enough ink from a ribbon on -such a surface and possibly an intention to apply a rather sharp -indentation and later fill that in with pigment. I am a little doubtful -if it would be successful but one might attempt to try it, because -various kinds of printing are made in that way, first by producing an -indent, and then working a pigment down into the indentation. I would -say on this particular document, I don't see there was any evidence -that the preparer of the document went through with any such plan. - -Representative FORD. For the record, I do have to leave to attend the -House session, and Senator Cooper, will you preside as chairman? - -Senator COOPER. Yes; I will be glad to do so. - -(At this point Representative Ford departed the hearing room.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Referring to your photograph 798 again, the word "James" -in "Alek James Hidell" seems to have been printed twice, as you -stated before, and the second time it seems to have started--at least -twice--and the second time it seems to start after the first "James" -has stopped. Is that your observation? - -Mr. COLE. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Referring back to your theories or the possible theories -you mentioned as explanations of the printing by stencil, would the -placement of the two "James" on the upper line indicate whether or not -either of those theories might be applicable? - -Mr. COLE. Well, of course, the repetition of these names is somewhat -opposed to the theory that a person might prefer to ink it in later. -But, of course, it is possible that he could not see it very well, and -that he might think he could make a selection of either one or the -other for inking in. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does the word "James" appear to have been stenciled more -than twice? - -Mr. GORE. Well, there is some overlapping or superimposition of -indentations in the first record of the indented name "James." It could -have been as many as three times in the stencil operation. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cole, have you produced a photograph of the -reverse side of the selective-service card---- - -Mr. COLE. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is, 795? - -Mr. COLE. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And was this taken by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And is it a true and accurate photograph of 795? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may this be admitted as 799? - -Senator COOPER. It will be admitted. - -(The document referred to, previously marked as Commission Exhibit 799, -was received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. This is an additional photograph of the reverse side of -795? - -Mr. COLE. That is correct. The one last mentioned was also made with a -very low angle of illumination raking the light across the document. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The "one last mentioned" being 797 or 798? - -Mr. COLE. 799 was made with the low-angle illumination to bring out the -indentation. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is as opposed to 797, which is the reverse side of -the photograph introduced as 795? - -Mr. COLE. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that had a normal illumination? - -Ir COLE. Yes., correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. By use of this 799 photograph, could you read to us what -was stenciled, insofar as possible? - -Mr. COLE. Opposite "Color of Eyes" there is discernible the indented -typewritten letters "CT." This is just to the left of the visible -letters "GR." Then opposite the "Color of Hair" there is an indentation -of the word in capital letters "BROWN." Just above the visible "9" for -the inch figures of height, there is a second indented "9." Opposite -the word 'weight" there is a small letter "i" as an indentation. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is "i" the lower case of the figure in the typewriter -which produces "1" in upper case? - -Mr. COLE. No; it is the lower case "l" which is used for the "1" on -most typewriters. In the frame above the wording "Local Board Stamp" -there is visible typewriting and indentations but I think this is -probably all one typewriting act, the ink coming down from the ribbon -only in a rather irregular fashion. Just outside the frame on the right -side there is an indentation of the abbreviation "ST." - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, did you have occasion to examine these cards -at a subsequent time--this card, I am sorry, the Selective Service -notice of classification, or spurious Selective Service classification, -795? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. At that time did you examine the negatives which I now -hand to you? - -Mr. COLE. I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, these are a set of negatives which -were found at one of the premises inhabited by Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr. -Chairman, may I have them admitted as 800? I would like these negatives -which Mr. Cole examined and which were found in one of the residences -of Lee Harvey Oswald to be received as 800. - -Senator COOPER. It is so ordered. - -(The negatives referred to were marked as Commission Exhibit 800 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you also examine this card which I now hand -you, which for the record is a Selective Service System notice of -classification in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald, found in the wallet of -Lee Harvey Oswald following his apprehension after the assassination -and the murder of Officer Tippit? - -Mr. COLE. I did examine this card. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may this card, which is Oswald's actual -Selective Service System notice of classification, be admitted as 801? - -Senator COOPER. So ordered. - -(The document referred to was marked as Commission Exhibit 801, and was -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now what did your examination of the negatives and the -card show, in relation to your earlier examination, conducted simply of -the Exhibit 795? - -Mr. COLE. May I say something off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Senator COOPER. Back on the record. - -Would you please state on the record your reasons for making your prior -answer to the question of counsel? - -Mr. COLE. I have some question whether this is actually the card which -I had previously examined, although I am sure I did examine a Selective -Service card, and it will take just a moment of close examination of -this one to determine that, and I would suggest that if there are any -other Selective Service cards available belonging to this group or -grouped with this card that I should see them at the same time. - -Senator COOPER. Your statement is then that you just desired to -examine---- - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. This card and any other Selective Service card that may -be available? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. I suggest that the Commission recess for a sufficient -time to permit the witness to examine the Selective Service card. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Before that recess, let me introduce another card -relating to the Selective Service System, which is the registration -certificate of Lee Harvey Oswald. Did you examine--did you examine -this registration certificate, Mr. Cole? And perhaps you can now, -Mr. Reporter, note a recess while he examines both the registration -certificate and the Selective Service System notice of classification. - -Senator COOPER. So ordered. - -(Short recess.) - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; I did examine this registration certificate. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine the Selective Service System notice of -classification? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; I did. I did examine the notice of classification. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is 801. May I have the registration certificate -admitted as 802? - -Senator COOPER. Let it be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 802, and was -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. This was also found in the wallet of Oswald following -his apprehension. Now, on the basis of your examination of these cards -and the negatives, did you find yourself reinforced in your earlier -conclusion, Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. I did. This confirmed my earlier conclusion which was formed -at a time I had only the photographic prints. Exhibit---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. No. 795, together with photographs thereof, is that what -you are referring to now? - -Mr. COLE. That is correct; yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you discuss the negatives, Exhibit 800, that you -referred to in your examination? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; there are two negatives which are of Selective Service -System notice of classification. Both of these negatives show extensive -retouching, sometimes called opaquing, for the purpose of preventing -certain material which appeared on an original from printing on a -photographic print. The two negatives are apparently related to -a single original. One of them has a somewhat greater amount of -retouching than the other. It is my view that the second negative, -that is, the one showing the smallest amount of retouching, was -probably made from a photographic print of the first one. In other -words, the retouching operation has involved two steps which resulted -in the production of two separate negatives. A possible reason for -the second step was that on the negative showing the most extensive -retouching there is still some material remaining from the original -document, namely the lower extensions of two letters "f" which pass -through certain wording at the right side of the document, reading -"local board," and another word reading "violation." Now on the second -negative of the pair a successful operation in touching out those -particular parts was accomplished. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you believe that the second negative was prepared -from the first, or they were prepared separately from the Selective -Service card itself? - -Mr. COLE. I believe that the second negative was prepared from a -photographic print of the first one. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, for ease of discussion, I would like to -take out the "first negative" from Exhibit 800 and give it a separate -number, 803, if I may. Is that all right, Mr. Chairman? - -Senator COOPER. Yes. - -(The negative referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 803, and -was received in evidence.) - -Mr. COLE. The negative I hand you now is the one I referred to as the -first negative, and the one having the most extensive retouching or -opaquing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is the one with the portion of the signature -appearing over the word "violation"? - -Mr. COLE. That is right. A portion which has not been retouched out of -the negative. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And does that same portion appear in the original of -Oswald's card, 801? - -Mr. COLE. It does. - -Senator COOPER. Is that a part of the record? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, sir. Now, there is a good deal of red material -on the reverse side of this "first negative." That is the opaquing -material, is it? - -Mr. COLE. Correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I would like to make the "second negative" referred to -804, Mr. Chairman. - -Senator COOPER. Very well. You want that made a part of the record? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Let it be made a part of the record. - -(The negative referred to, marked Commission Exhibit 804, was received -in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. We are extracting that from 800 for ease of discussion. - -Now, Mr. Cole, I call your attention to the fact that the words -appearing on the face of the original 801, the printed material -beginning "The law requires you, subject to heavy penalty for -violation, to carry this notice in addition to your Registration -Certificate," and going on for two full paragraphs of small or ordinary -Roman lower and upper case, and ending in solid caps "FOR ADVICE, SEE -YOUR GOVERNMENT APPEAL AGENT," this language in the original spreads -across the bottom of the card from left to right, starting slightly to -the right of the dotted line running up and down the card and marked -"registrant must sign here," and extending quite close to the right -margin. - -Does it appear in the same fashion, approximately, on the "first -negative," which is Exhibit 803? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; but, of course, this negative includes a section along -the left side which is not shown on the original. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which is actually a blank section, is that correct? - -Mr. COLE. Correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is the negative slightly enlarged, apart from that blank -section? - -Mr. COLE. I think it is the same size. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I call your attention to the "second negative," which -is Exhibit 804, and this same language, "The law requires you," and so -forth, until "FOR ADVICE, SEE YOUR GOVERNMENT APPEAL AGENT" appears in -a much smaller compass, that is to say it starts substantially to the -right of the margin or the signature line and is separated from the -signature line by another dotted line. - -Mr. COLE. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And does that correspond to the forged card, 795? - -Mr. COLE. It does. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Has that created a space on the forged card which does -not exist on the original? - -Mr. COLE. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And is that the space into which the photograph has been -inserted on the forged card? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I call your attention to a small strip of negative which -appears to bear this language, and I ask you whether you believe that -this negative might have been used in the preparation of the forged -card? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; I believe this negative was used for producing the -forged card which is a photographic print. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may that be made 805? - -Senator COOPER. Let 805 be made a part of the record. - -(The negative referred to was marked and received in evidence as -Commission Exhibit No. 805.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. In your opinion, can you account for the reduction in -size of that printing, "The law requires you" and so forth? - -Mr. COLE. Well, it would seem that it had to be reduced in size to -accomplish the obvious purpose on the card, Exhibit 795, of providing -extra space for a photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How would that be done? - -Mr. COLE. This can be done photographically. When a photographic camera -is set up to take a picture of a document you have a considerable range -for making either enlargements or reductions on the negative. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is this whole process one which requires a great deal -of skill, and when I say "whole process" I refer to the re-creation of -a new card by use of opaquing material and the reduction in size of a -portion of the text on the original card? - -Mr. COLE. No; I wouldn't say that it requires a great skill. I would -say an elementary knowledge of photography, especially the photographic -techniques used in a printing plant, would be enough for such a purpose. - -Senator COOPER. On that point, would it require study to learn to make, -to exercise these techniques, either from a textbook or information -from someone else or by observation of the practice? - -Mr. COLE. I think observation and association with other people, or -being in a place where such techniques were going along in the normal -operation of a photographic laboratory or printing plant, would be -enough. A person wouldn't have to consult a text. As a matter of fact, -similar things are done for normal printing operations. - -Senator COOPER. That is the question I wanted to ask. Would this type -of technique in an average shop or plant be normal? - -Mr. COLE. Oh, yes. - -Senator COOPER. Would it require much practice on the part of an -individual before such technique could be successfully accomplished? - -Mr. COLE. No; I would say a moderate amount of practice. - -Senator COOPER. How much, would you say? How many times would a person -have to, if it is possible to say, practice this kind of a technique -before he could do it reasonably well? - -Mr. COLE. On a trial-and-error basis. I would say that a half dozen -attempts on a trial and error basis of going through such an operation, -perhaps making an error, finding how to correct it, doing it again, -achieving more success, would certainly be enough. - -Senator COOPER. You would say then, assuming that Lee Oswald made these -changes, that he would have had to practice them several times before -he could have successfully made the changes which were indicated by the -exhibits that have been introduced? - -Mr. COLE. Well, sir; I would say he would not necessarily have to -practice on this particular document, but if he had some practice, he -or any other person, had had some practice in normal operation, similar -operations in a printing plant, then he could accomplish this result. - -Senator COOPER. Would these changes have required the assistance at the -time of another person---- - -Mr. COLE. I think not. - -Senator COOPER. Or could they be accomplished by one person? - -Mr. COLE. One person could easily do it. - -Senator COOPER. Thank you. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now on these questions which Senator Cooper has been -asking, I ask you to refer back to Exhibit 800, consisting of a group -of other negatives not related to the selective-service card, and ask -you whether those negatives bear any evidence of opaquing and similar -techniques as were used in the creation of Exhibit 795? - -Mr. COLE. They do. All of them show evidence of opaquing, that is, -touching out certain information, letting other information come -through. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think this might have constituted sufficient -practice to produce the 795 result? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; I think so. - -Senator COOPER. Would it have been necessary for a person making these -changes to have had for his use any kind of special equipment, or what -kind of equipment would be required to make these changes? - -Mr. COLE. Well, sir; in a printing plant there are usually what -they call light tables, a table with a transparent surface with a -light under it, which are used for making up, for assembling various -materials to be included in a single plate. But that wouldn't be -essential. A person could take a negative ready for retouching right to -the window there, place it against the window and touch out material in -that manner. - -Senator COOPER. My question really goes to this point: Would it have -been necessary for a person who made these changes to have done the -work in a shop or printing plant or could it be done outside of a -printing shop? - -Mr. COLE. It would not have to be done in a printing shop. It could be -done easily in this room or any ordinary living accommodations. - -Senator COOPER. That is all. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you need, Mr. Cole, in your belief, the type of -equipment you are likely to find in a printing plant, or could this be -done with home equipment? - -Mr. COLE. I would say it could be done with home equipment, but I think -it is unlikely with respect to the actual preparation of the negative -that one would get a successful result from home equipment. I believe -that for the preparation of the negative, that is, apart from the -retouching operation, that one would need a very accurate camera such -as are found in photographic laboratories and printing plants. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could the opaquing have been done off the printing -premises? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; the opaquing could be done almost anywhere, in any -ordinary living accommodation, needing only a source of light to pass -through the negative, the liquid opaquing material, and a small brush. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, if you were going to prepare a forged -Selective Service System notice of classification, and if you did not -have access to blanks of the Selective Service System itself, how would -you go about preparing such a forgery? - -Mr. COLE. I would use a method similar to that already described here -with one modification; namely, that in preparing the original negative, -I would make an enlargement directly on the negative, then go through -the opaquing operation, and in making the final print I would reduce it -back to original size. That would produce a somewhat better quality of -print, and it gives somewhat more freedom in the opaquing operation, -that is, in working with a larger negative there is not as much danger -of running the opaque into some material that you want to save, and we -see on these negatives there are a few places where the person doing -the opaquing has actually permitted this material to run into a part -that should be saved on the original. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you use the same type of photographic paper? - -Mr. COLE. I would not. I would use a dull-surfaced paper which would -look more like an original document. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you said that the person who produced the -negatives let his opaque run into areas which he wanted to save, what -areas are you referring to, what type of areas? - -Mr. COLE. Well, areas where there is needed a sharp outline of a box -which is to receive some printed information, and this, of course, is -a very thin line, and it is very difficult to control this liquid on -the negative. There are some places where it has run into the line and -apparently it was necessary to make some strengthening or correction of -that line later. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you see evidence of correction of the line? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; on Commission Exhibit 795 the boxes for selective -service number apparently have been strengthened somewhat. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now referring to Commission Exhibit 801, which is the -actual card, do the numbers overlap or extend to the borders of the -margin at all? - -Mr. COLE. There is one figure in particular which runs right along the -line of the box. This is the first box on the left, and the figures are -"41" and the "1" lies directly over the line on the right side of the -box. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And does the "4" in "41" and the "3" in "39" overlap the -boxes? - -Mr. COLE. They do. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would that practically necessitate a correction of the -boxes? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; it would, in order to repair the line. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, I hand you an item entitled "Certificate of -Service Armed Forces of the United States," reading "This is to certify -that Alek James Hidell" and so forth, and "Period of Active Duty"--on -the reverse side now--"October 1, 1958" to a date which is blurred, and -I ask you whether you have examined this item? - -Mr. COLE. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may this be admitted as 806? - -Senator COOPER. Let the exhibit be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked as Commission Exhibit No. 806, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. When did you first examine this item, Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. That was also examined in December of 1963, December 6, 1963. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Together with the selective service system notice of -classification? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And did you have any negatives at that time, or the -original? - -Mr. COLE. I did not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion at that time, based solely upon -the examination of 806? - -Mr. COLE. It was my conclusion that 806 is actually a photographic -print from a photographic negative. It is not an original document. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And on what did you base this conclusion? - -Mr. COLE. My familiarity with the appearance of photographic paper -primarily. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you prepare photographs at that time, Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you produce those? These photographs are of the -front and reverse, respectively, of Commission Exhibit 806? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And these were prepared by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And they are accurate photographs of 806? - -Mr. COLE. They are. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have these admitted as 807 and 808, -respectively. - -Senator COOPER. The exhibits will be admitted to the record. - -(The photographs referred to were marked as Commission Exhibits Nos. -807 and 808, respectively, and were received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. 807 will be the front and 808 will be the reverse. Mr. -Cole, could you attempt to decipher the typewriting on the reverse side -as shown in the photograph 808? - -Mr. COLE. The typewriting reads "October 13 1958," and on the second -line there is some confusion of the typewriting, in other words, -there is more than one typing operation on the line reading "To." One -of these typing operations reads "October 12, 1961." One of the other -typing operations on the line for "To," as determined by a previous -examination under the microscope, shows an indent of "23 October 1959." - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you believe that was--yes, go ahead. - -Mr. COLE. Also on the line reading "From" there is an indentation of -another typewriter operation which reads "24 October 1957." - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you believe those indentations were caused by a -typewriter set at stencil? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; without the interposition of a ribbon between the type -bar and the paper. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take photographs with side light, as you had in -the case of the selective service card, to attempt to bring out these -stencil marks? - -Mr. COLE. I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you produce those photographs? You are handing me -a photograph of the front side of the certificate of service, and is -this a photograph which you took? - -Mr. COLE. It is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. An accurate reproduction of the Exhibit 806? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 809, Mr. Chairman? - -Senator COOPER. Let this exhibit be made a part of the record. - -(The photograph referred to previously marked as Commission Exhibit No. -809, was received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. You have also given me a photograph of the reverse side -of 806? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This was taken by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. COLE. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And is it an accurate photograph of the reverse of 806? - -Mr. COLE. It is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May the photograph of the reverse be admitted as Exhibit -810? - -Senator COOPER. Exhibit 810 will be admitted as part of the record. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show us what you found in the way of -indentations caused by stencils, by referring to these Exhibits 809 and -810? - -Mr. COLE. 809 shows the face of the exhibit and in addition to the -clearly visible typewriting of the name "Alek James Hidell," there is a -repetition of this name somewhat below the visible typewriting in the -form of typewritten indentations. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is this similar to the typewritten indentations found in -the selective service card, 795? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; they are. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you believe that the name "Alek James Hidell" was -stenciled once or more than once? - -Mr. COLE. More than once, at least twice, I would say. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is the relative position of the two stenciling -operations? - -Mr. COLE. They were somewhat below, about one-half to three-quarters of -the height of a typewritten character below, the visible typewriting. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is the relationship to each other? - -Mr. COLE. They are offset about one-quarter to one-half the height of a -typewritten character. - -Mr. EISENBERG. From each other? - -Mr. COLE. That is right, vertically. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is it accurate to say then that there is a progression -upward as comparing the typewritten name and the two stenciled -operations, or at least that the three are set in step, so that each -one is below the next impression? - -Mr. COLE. That is correct, with the visible typewriting having the -better position relative to the reproduction of the printed matter. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you think of the reason why this might have been, -why this operation might have been performed in this manner, Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. Yes. It could easily result from some difficulty of finding -the correct place for typewriting the name on the card. The lowermost -indentation would have been an incorrect position since it was run -into a part of the reproduction of the printed matter. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I refer back to 798, which is a highlight -photograph of the selective service card, and ask you whether the -stenciled material in 798 appears above the line on which the -typewritten material--first name, middle name, and last name--should -appear? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; somewhat above. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In light of that, do you think it is possible that the -individual who prepared this card used the stencil to determine at what -point the typewriting would be placed so that it was in the correct -position in relationship to the line above which it belonged? - -Mr. COLE. That is a definite possibility and, of course, he might also -have been concerned about the position for the reproduced printed -matter--"First name," "Middle name," "Last name." - -Mr. EISENBERG. Bringing your attention back once more to 795, the -Selective Service System card, was the reverse side of that card -prepared in your opinion from Commission 802, which is the reverse side -of the registration certificate? I also call your attention to 801 for -comparision, that is, the original of the selective service card. - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. The reverse of the photographic identification -card, Commission Exhibit 795, could be a photographic reproduction of -the reverse of Commission Exhibit 802, with the performance of certain -opaquing operations. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Looking at the reverse side of the two cards, 802 and -801, does the reverse side of the card 801 have any information for -identifying characteristics of the individual bearing the card? - -Mr. COLE. It does not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And what about the reverse side of 802? - -Mr. COLE. The reverse side of 802 provides space for a personal -description, color of eyes, color of hair, complexion, height, and -weight. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you find among the negatives in 800 a negative which -might have been used or was used to prepare the reverse side of the -selective service card, 795, the spurious card? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this negative classified -separately as 811 for purpose of ready identification? - -Senator COOPER. Let it be so classified, and admitted as part of the -record. - -(The document referred to, was marked as Commission Exhibit No. 811 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you find a negative which might have been used for -the preparation of the certificate of service, that is 806? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; I did, for both face and back. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were these negatives in your opinion used as the -negatives for that purpose? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. In my opinion, these are the very negatives -that were used for producing the photographic print representing a -certificate of service. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May these be subclassified as or separately classified -as 812, Mr. Chairman, and introduced as 812? - -Senator COOPER. Let the document be designated as 812 and admitted as -part of the record. - -(The item referred to, was marked as Commission Exhibit No. 812 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you reach the same conclusion, by the way, as to -the negative 811, that is, that it was definitely the negative used to -produce the reverse side of 795? - -Mr. COLE. I did. This is the very negative to produce the reverse side -of 795. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Returning to 795, there are two signatures which appear -in 795 in ink, is that correct? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is, the signature over the caption "Member or clerk -of local board," and the signature over the caption "Registrant must -sign here"? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The second signature reads "Alek J. Hidell"? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you read the first signature? - -Mr. COLE. The first signature appears to be the name "Goodhoffer," but -that is partly an estimate. In other words, it is not possible to read -this in a clear manner. That is a possible spelling of the name but not -necessarily the only spelling. - -(At this point, there was a short recess, and Mr. McCloy entered the -hearing room.) - -Senator COOPER. I am now called to the Senate. Mr. John McCloy will act -as Chairman. - -(At this point Senator Cooper departed the hearing room and there was a -further recess.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. How does that compare with the signature on the original -card, Exhibit 801? - -Mr. COLE. It is not the same name and, of course, not in the same -handwriting. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, did you compare the two signatures on Exhibit 795 -with the standards in this case to determine whether the signatures -have been written by the person who produced the standards? - -Mr. COLE. I did compare the signatures on 795 with the standard writing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion, Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. With respect to the signature above "Member or clerk of local -board," I have not formed any conclusion about authorship. With regard -to the writing "Alek J. Hidell," it is my opinion that the author of -the standard writing is the author of that name. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And referring to the charts of the standards which you -prepared, and referring to the photograph of 795, could you explain the -reasons for this conclusion? - -Mr. COLE. Would you want any copy of this? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; if you have a copy. - -Mr. COLE. The capital letter "A" of the name "Alek" on 795 is -reproduced in the standard writing on chart B, item 6, in the general -conformation of the several lower case "a's" in that area. I refer -to it as a capital "A" because it begins the name, but actually with -respect to size and formation it is closely similar to the lower case -"a's" of item 6. Now the similarity is largely in the method that the -staff is made, the way it pulls away from the oral body of the letter -with only a moderate rate of retracing along the right side. That -detail, as I say, is found both in the "A" on 795, and in the several -"a's" of item 6. There are three in a row there, each beginning a line -of writing. - -The letter "k" of the name "Alek" compares favorably with the "k's" -of the standard writing, chart A, items 13 and 14. With regard to the -middle initial "J" there is not a cursive "J" that is, as distinguished -from a printed "J"--shown on the charts of standard writing. But the -movement required for producing a "J" is similar to that required for -producing the capital letter "I," and we observe a similarity as to -movement with respect to the "J" of 795 as compared with the "I" of -chart B, item 3. - -One characteristic of the capital letter "H" of "Hidell" on 795 is the -method of making that formation which stands for the crossbar. Now -this is the closed part along the lower half of the right side of the -letter, which would represent the crossbar of the letter. This is the -general movement used in a number of the signatures of Lee H. Oswald. -One good example is that on chart B, item 15, the middle initial "H". -Another feature of that "H" is the connection to the following letter -by an approximately horizontal stroke passing from the finish of the -crossbar of the "H" across to the "i," and we observe a similar method -of connection, although not with the same letter, on chart A, items -10 and 11, where the "o" is connected by a straight line, almost -horizontal projection of the crossbar, from the "H" to the "o". - -The letter "i" again shows a feature, which has previously been -mentioned in the standard writing, of an increase of forehand slant, -that is a slant to the right with respect to that letter as compared -to other letters. This feature is shown in a number of places in -the standard writing, one good example being on chart B, item 10, -the second "i"--which is there because of a misspelling of the word -"Washington" that is spelled, the last few letters, "tion"--and there -we observe that rather extreme increase of the forehand slant of the -letter "i". - -The letter "d" of "Hidell" compares favorably with the "d's" of the -standard writing on chart A, item 5, in the word "discharge," and on -the same chart, item 6 in the word "regards." - -The final "l's" show a perceptible increase of pressure on the -downstrokes, which is also found in the standard writing, chart B, item -6, top line, the word "enroll." This shows a somewhat more extreme -increase in pressure on downstroke, but I regard it basically as the -same habit. This particular part also shows a very abrupt terminal -stroke for the letter "l" as between 795 and compared with the final -or last stroke of the "l" on chart B in the last stroke in the word -"enrolled." - -These constitute my reasons for believing that the author of the -standard writing is the author of the signature "Alek J. Hidell" on -Exhibit 795. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now concerning the other signature, Mr. Cole, are -you unable to or--can you state why you are unable to arrive at a -conclusion? - -Mr. COLE. Well, partly because of the limited writing we have for -comparison. The last part of the name is practically illegible, and the -letters are so confused that I believe they do not accurately record -writing habit. I would regard it as being a rather unnatural writing. -Now there is fair legibility in the letters of the first name, and -they do have a moderate rate or amount of similarity to the standard -writing, but since it is only a few letters, I think there is not a -basis for a conclusion. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is the signature inconsistent with the writing of the -standards? - -Mr. COLE. No; I wouldn't say there was any--there is certainly no basis -for eliminating the author of the standards as being the author of that -signature. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does there appear to be any attempt at disguise in this -signature? - -Mr. COLE. Well, I wouldn't regard it. If there is such an attempt, it -is not, it seems to me, not a matter of deliberation or trying hard at -it, but only a matter of being extremely careless in the last part of -that signature. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is illegibility sometimes used as a method of disguise? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I ask some questions about this? - -Mr. COLE. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. If that word is "Good," that first word on the Exhibit 796, -is it---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. 795, and the photograph is 796. - -Mr. McCLOY. 795. If that letter "G" is compared with the capital letter -"G" on the standard chart B-5, "Glenview," would you say there is any -similarity between the two? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; there is, with respect to the size of the upper loop -which is on the left side of the letter, and the approximate horizontal -motion in passing from that loop over to the right side of the letter. - -Mr. McCLOY. We have it again in 14 of that same chart? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. The "J" which seems to follow the word "Good," however, -does not seem to comport with the "J" on the signature "Alek J. Hidell" -does it? - -Mr. COLE. No; but, of course, you are getting there to the area where -the rather serious corruption or illegibility of forms begins. I think -one could say that from the fair legibility of the first name, and -the very poor legibility of the last name, that this is a deliberate -effort. In other words, you have got a demonstration of the ability of -the writer to produce a legible writing and, therefore, to devolve into -this very illegible effort could be intentional. - -Mr. McCLOY. I noticed when you compared the "J" in "Alek J. Hidell" -with the standard "I," such as the one on chart B-3, there was a -definite similarity, but I notice on chart A, No. 7, there is an "I," -a capital "I" presumably, which apparently doesn't have the same -conformation as the "J" in the Commission Exhibit 795. Would you agree -with that? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; that is true, but I think in studying these forms we -ought to consider all available "I's," and there would be some others, -such as the one on B-4 and one in B-6. It shows a fair range of -variation, especially with regard to finishing the lower part of that -letter. Now, I would judge the one on B-3 to be definitely a part of -his writing habit, because it gives the impression of having been made -with a considerable amount of freedom. Generally, a larger form is made -more freely, more naturally, than a smaller form. - -Mr. McCLOY. I see. - -Mr. COLE. And you see you have got sort of a cramped effect across the -base of the "I" in A-7. - -Mr. McCLOY. What I am getting at is, you don't suggest that all these -"I's" and all these "J's" exactly conform, but you are talking in terms -of similarities that turn up in certain of them that you believe are -significant? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, I now hand you an item consisting of a -yellowish card entitled "International Certificates of Vaccination as -approved by The World Health Organization," and so forth, PHS Form -731, and reading in part, "This is to certify that Lee Oswald, whose -signature follows" and with the signature, "Lee H. Oswald," date of -birth and so forth, "has on the date indicated been vaccinated or -revaccinated against smallpox," with a date appearing in a rubber-stamp -printing, what appears to be rubber-stamp printing, "June 8, 1963," -and a rubber-stamp signature of "Dr. A. J. Hideel, P.O. Box 30016, -New Orleans, La.," with some type of stamp on the right side next to -the name, and a signature "A. J. Hidell" over the name; and I ask you -whether you have examined this item? - -Mr. COLE. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may this be admitted as Commission Exhibit -813? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked as Commission Exhibit No. 813, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I also will show you Commission Exhibit 115, which -consists of a Warrior rubber stamping kit which has already been -introduced in evidence in connection with testimony of Marina Oswald, -and which was found at one of Oswald's residences, and ask you whether -you have examined this Commission Exhibit 115? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to determine whether the signatures "Lee -H. Oswald" and "A. J. Hideel" on Commission Exhibit 813 were prepared -by the author of the standards? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion? - -Mr. COLE. It is my conclusion that the author of the standard writing -is the author of the writing you just described. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to determine whether the apparent -rubber-stamp printing had been produced by use of the Warrior kit, -Exhibit 115? - -Mr. COLE. I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion? - -Mr. COLE. It is my conclusion that the kit could have been used for -producing the rubber-stamp printing on--Exhibit 813 is it? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. - -Did you prepare a photograph of 813, Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Will you produce that photograph? You have produced two -photographs, one of which shows the outside or exterior portion of 813, -and the other one shows the interior portion? - -Mr. COLE. Correct; yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take each of these photographs? - -Mr. COLE. I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And are they accurate reproductions of the Exhibit 813? - -Mr. COLE. They are. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Approximately what enlargements are these, by the way? - -Mr. COLE. About 1-1/2 diameters. - -Mr. EISENBERG. These are what size photographs? - -Mr. COLE. Eight by ten. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may these two photographs be admitted as -814 and 815? - -Mr. McCLOY. They may be. - -(The photographs referred to were marked as Commission Exhibits Nos. -814 and 815, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. 814 will be exterior part of 813, and 815 will be the -interior. - -Now, the exterior portion of 813 also shows some handprinting "Lee H. -Oswald" which came out in this photograph--in 814--a little clearer. -Did you identify that handwriting, Mr. Cole---- - -Mr. COLE. I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. As being--what was your conclusion? - -Mr. COLE. It is my conclusion that that handprinting is in the hand of -the person who made the standard specimens. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now by reference to those photographs, 814 and 815, and -by reference to your charts of the standards, could you explain the -reasons for your conclusion on the handwriting and handprinting? - -Mr. COLE. With respect to the signature, "Lee H. Oswald," as shown -by the photograph 815, this compares favorably with other sample -signatures that I have examined, some of which are shown on the charts, -namely chart A, item 15; chart B, item 15; and chart C, item 6, second -line from the bottom. There is, I think, a closer comparison with -certain other standard signatures of "Lee H. Oswald" which I have -examined, as appearing on the reverse of certain checks. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And those are in evidence, are they, as one of the -standards, Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That was described in the record when you introduced it? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; the signatures as endorsements on these several checks -show what might be described as an exaggerated freedom and carelessness -in the execution of this signature. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me, was that 776, that exhibit consisting of the -checks? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; the signatures and endorsements of the checks in -Exhibit 776 show some variation with respect to the care and formation -of letters. There are a few endorsements in that group which show a -greatly exaggerated freedom or a carelessness in execution. These -signatures appear on, especially on, check numbers 2408 and 2506 of -this exhibit, and they compare quite favorably in detail with the -signature shown by the photograph, Commission Exhibit 815. - -Now with regard to the writing of the name "A. J. Hideel" we observed -in the combination of letters "Hi" that that letter is joined by means -of a projection of a crossbar into the letter "i"; that in the letter -"e," which is separated from the preceding "d," there is a very high -placement of the loop, that is, instead of beginning at the writing -line, the loop of the letter begins about halfway up on the staff, -and this is a form that is very familiar in the standard writing, -particularly in the handprinted forms. For example, on chart C, item 3, -the final "e" in the word "discharge" shows a similar effect. Also on -chart C, item 6, the second line, in the name "Mercedes" we have got -two "e's" that show a similar effect. - -The final "l" shows this perceptible increase of pressure on the -downstroke, and a very abrupt terminal stroke also, which had been -previously mentioned as being a characteristic of chart B, item 6, in -the word "enroll." - -Now with regard to the handprinting as shown by Commission photograph -Exhibit 814, and considering particularly the name "Oswald," we have a -detailed agreement in every feature of letter forms there, and I will -direct attention especially to the use of the lowercase "l" and "d" -as associated with the capital or uppercase forms of the other four -letters of the name, and I will also mention the method of forming the -"d," considering first one of the standards where it can be seen more -clearly. On chart C, item 6, the first line, final "d" of "Oswald" -shows first a fairly long downstroke, then a stroke rising from the -end of that downstroke moving upwards and to the left to form the body -of the letter, and this method of formation is also used in the "d" of -"Oswald" as shown by the photograph Exhibit 814. - -On the next line below there is faintly visible the name "Orleans" and -I will direct attention to the base of the "l," which shows a rather -deep compound curve. That is, here again, instead of having a simple -horizontal line to represent the base of that printed letter, there is -a fairly deep curve which is found in the standard writing in several -places, one example being chart C, item 4. - -This word also illustrates the tendency to mix lowercase forms with -capitals in the case of the use of the lowercase "e" in "Orleans," and -that, of course, is repeated many places in the standard writing, a -good place being chart C, item 6, the word "Mercedes." These are the -reasons for my belief that the author of the standard writing is the -author of the handwriting on---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. 813? - -Mr. COLE. 813. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, the handwriting and handprinting on 813 is all -extremely dim. Do you have any explanation for that? - -Mr. COLE. There is evidence that this document has been treated with -chemicals, probably for the purpose of developing for fingerprints. -Such chemicals are ordinarily included in solvents which dissolve -ink, and some bleach out ink. I think that is the reason for the poor -legibility of this ink writing. At one time, I think, it probably had a -pretty good legibility. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was this the condition of the item when you examined it? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; it was. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you stated that the apparent rubber-stamp printing -could have been produced by the Warrior rubber kit, 115. First let me -ask you, is this actually rubber-stamp printing? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; I believe it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is, the printing on the vaccination certificate. -When you say it could have been produced by the print in Exhibit 115, -could you elaborate as to your findings on that point? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; in considering that question, I made an impression -from the stamp, from the type setup in a stamp which is a part of -this kit at the present time. Now the typing as set up reads "L. H. -Oswald, 4907 Magazine St., New Orleans, La.," and, of course, that text -repeats some of the letters, a good many of the letters, which are -in the rubber-stamp impression "Doctor A. J. Hideel, P.O. Box 30016, -New Orleans, La.," and I made a careful comparison of these letters -as taken from the stamped impression with what is shown on 813, and I -found that they agree perfectly as to measurements of the type faces, -and they agree as to the design of letters. Therefore, I would say that -the rubber-stamp type faces from this particular kit could have been -used to produce that rubber-stamp impression on 813. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you produce the two cards which you used to record -the impression of the 115 rubber-stamp kit? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; the second card is an impression from the date -stamp which is a part of this kit, and that too agrees along the same -lines with respect to measurements of the letters and the designs of -the letters. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may these two cards be admitted as -Commission Exhibit 816? - -Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. - -(The cards referred to were marked as Commission Exhibit No. 816 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are there microscopic characteristics on rubber-stamp -printing sufficient to make positive identifications? - -Mr. COLE. I don't regard any to be present in this particular stamp. -But while the type faces could not be regarded as perfect, I don't know -of any way to determine whether the imperfections belong only to this -kit or whether they would be true of all Warrior rubber-stamp kits. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you notice any imperfections? - -Mr. COLE. Well, I did not actually catalog any imperfections, but in -looking at the type I had the general impression that it is not a -perfect impression, certainly not as perfect as you would get from -metal type in a regular printing operation. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you stamped an impression other than the one -contained on the card 813. Could you explain the reasons for that? - -Mr. COLE. I stamped the material which was already set up in type. -Since it repeated a good deal of the material, enough for examination, -I did not want on my own volition to tear down the stamps that were in -this in order to set up other type. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine the stamp impression appearing on the -right-hand side of the interior of the Document 813? - -Mr. COLE. I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you come to any conclusion as to that stamp? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; this stamp includes wording which reads in reverse, -and there is a double stamping of the wording, and the text is "BRUSH -IN CAN" the three words, "BRUSH IN CAN." The word "BRUSH" extends in -approximately a semicircle across the upper part of the stamp and the -words "IN CAN" in a semicircle across the lower part. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you think of any explanation of why those words -should appear? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; a possible explanation is that the object used to make -the stamped impression was the top of some container of a solvent or -cleaning fluid with raised lettering, and that the top of this can was -pressed against a stamped pad, and then pressed against this document. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What would the object be? - -Mr. COLE. Well, I think it is very common to see rubber-stamped -impressions on documents of this particular character. They are so -commonplace, I think that it is probably a habit or custom among most -people not to read them. They may be regarded as giving a document an -official appearance. That may be the purpose of getting some sort of -stamp onto the document. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Why do the letters appear in reverse, Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. Well, they would naturally appear in reverse. If they read -correctly in raised letters as the top of some container, if it was -intended that they be read correctly there, then they would naturally -be in reverse from the stamped impression. Of course, you will observe -that in this Warrior stamping kit the material set up in the rubber -stamp there is in reverse, which produces correct reading and writing -from an impression. There is one more feature of this particular stamp -I think ought to be mentioned. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, please. - -Mr. COLE. There is toward the center of that stamp a rectangle of a -deposit of ink in a certain pattern, sort of a spotty mottled pattern -of ink, and this corresponds to the pattern of the blank parts of the -date stamp. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which date stamp is that? - -Mr. COLE. The Warrior stamping kit includes a dating stamp, and on the -adjustable bands are certain blank areas. Now, the pattern on those -blank areas is similar to the pattern which we have in this rectangle -of the stamp just discussed. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I ask, this Post Office Box 30016, is that---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; that corresponds---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Does it correspond to the one he used in New Orleans? - -Mr. EISENBERG. I am about to introduce an exhibit which shows Post -Office Box 30061, that is, the last two figures reversed, and I imagine -his spelling accounts for that. - -Mr. Cole, I now show you an item consisting of a part of an application -for Post Office Box 30061 in New Orleans, dated June 11, 1963, with a -postmark, signed "L. H. Oswald," and in the part of the box captioned -"Names of persons entitled to receive mail through box" and so forth, -the words are written "A. J. Hidell, Marina Oswald," and I ask you -whether you have examined that item? - -Mr. COLE. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this item admitted, Mr. Chairman, as 817? - -Mr. McCLOY. Let it be admitted. - -(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 817, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you compare this with the standards to determine -who wrote the writing on that exhibit, or more accurately, whether the -printing and writing was produced by the same person who produced the -printing and writing on the standards? - -Mr. COLE. I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion? - -Mr. COLE. It is my conclusion that the author of the standard writing -is the author of the writing on Commission Exhibit 817. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take a photograph of Commission 817? - -Mr. COLE. I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This was taken by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And it is a true and accurate reproduction of 817? - -Mr. COLE. It is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This is an 8 by 10 photograph. Mr. Chairman, may this be -admitted as 818? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 818 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. By reference to this photograph and by reference to your -charts of standards, Mr. Cole, can you explain to us how you came to -this conclusion? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; with respect to the handprinting of the name "A. J. -Hidell," I direct attention to the formation of the letter "d" in the -same manner as that previously described in the standard writing, chart -C, item 6, first line--a close correspondence as to the construction, -writing movement, in forming those letters. - -The letter "e" compares favorably not only as to form but the -circumstance that here again the lowercase letter is mixed in with -capital letters. Of course, that applies to the three letters "ide" -associated with the other capital letter of that name, and that is a -habit shown in many places in the standard writing. - -The "L's" have the compound curve across the base, which has previously -been observed in the standard writing. - -In the name "Marina," the form of the capital letter "M" compares -closely with the capital letter "M" shown on chart C, item 6, second -line, the name "Mercedes." - -That same name shows the form of letter "A" with the retraced stroke on -the left side which exists in many places in the standard writing. - -The name "Oswald" again shows this mixture of uppercase and lowercase -letters, namely the circumstance that the "l" and "d" are lower-case -forms, whereas the previous, the other four letters are upper case. - -The signature "L. H. Oswald," agrees with other signatures that I have -examined, some of which are shown on the charts, chart A, item 15, -chart B, item 15, and chart C, item 6, next to the last line, a close -correspondence in all details, except that there is some confusion or -overriding in the second letter of the last name in the area of the -"s," which may be only an accidental imperfection in that particular -area. Otherwise, there is a fairly clear showing of all the letters, -and they agree with the standards. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does that "s" that you refer to appear to be two "s's," -one printed and one written? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; it could be that. They are somewhat intertwined there, -and we have got this name just following an instance of making -handprinting, so that could be an explanation of it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Next, I show you a photograph of a card reading "Fair -Play for Cuba Committee. New Orleans Chapter, L. H. Oswald," signature, -"L. H. Oswald," dated June 15, 1963, signed "Chapter President--A. J. -Hidell," and I ask you whether you have examined that photograph? - -Mr. COLE. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May this be admitted as 819, Mr. Chairman? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 819 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, this is a photograph of a card that was -found in Oswald's wallet at the time of his apprehension. - -I now show you a card, a paper card, which appears to be the same as -Exhibit 819, except that there is no visible marking where the words -"Chapter"--where the signature "Chapter President--A. J. Hidell" is -written on Exhibit 819, and the card is seriously discolored with a -dark brown discoloration, and I ask you whether you have examined this -card I now hand you? - -Mr. COLE. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have that admitted as 820, Mr. Chairman? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 820 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. In your opinion, is 819 a photograph of the card, 820? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you account in any way for the discoloration of the -card 820? - -Mr. COLE. The discoloration is characteristic of that which has -previously been observed as resulting from treating a document with a -solution of silver nitrate. Such treatment is sometimes done in the -hope of developing latent fingerprints, and this treatment could be, -and probably is, the explanation for the elimination of a line of -writing on the line for signature above the title "Chapter President." - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were you able to make out whether any writing had -appeared in the space which is now blank on Exhibit 820, making -provision for the---- - -Mr. COLE. Yes; it is---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me, making provision for the chapter president's -signature? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; there is barely enough showing to indicate that there -was a line of writing there at one time. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you tell whether it was the same as the signature -"A. J. Hidell"? - -Mr. COLE. It conforms generally to the signature "A. J. Hidell," that -is, the form shown by the photograph, Exhibit 819. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you taken a photograph of 819? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; I am sorry, sir; I do not have that photograph with -me. - -Mr. EISENBERG. All right. - -Do you want to take a look at this, Mr. McCloy? - -Did you compare the signatures "Lee Oswald" and "A. J. Hidell" on -819 to determine whether they had been written by the author of the -standards? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir; may I look at that photograph? Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion as to the signature of Lee H. -Oswald? - -Mr. COLE. It is my opinion that the author of the standard writing is -the author of the signature "Lee H. Oswald" on Exhibit 819. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion as to the signature "A. J. -Hidell"? - -Mr. COLE. I find no basis in the standard writing for identification of -the author of such standard writing as the author of the name "A. J. -Hidell" as shown by 819. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think that the author of the standard writing -might have produced that signature in a disguised hand? - -Mr. COLE. I think that is highly improbable, because this does -not appear to be a disguised hand. It looks like a fairly natural -handwriting. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that is based upon the items which you enumerated -earlier which indicated the presence of a natural handwriting, such as -speed and so forth? - -Mr. COLE. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think that, apart from the naturalness of the -writing, the signature "A. J. Hidell" was within Oswald's abilities as -a penman? - -Mr. COLE. It appears to be somewhat beyond his ability. I would say -taking into account his general level of writing skill as shown by the -standards, I would say this represents a somewhat higher writing skill. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. On the record. - -Mr. COLE. I now hand you a yellow sheet of paper, which has already -been introduced into evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 110, and -for the record I will state that this consists of an interlinear -translation from Russian into English. The Russian script on this -document has been identified as being that of George Bouhe an -acquaintance of the Oswald's, and the English script as being that -of Marina Oswald. Marina herself identified this as her handwriting, -and she stated that Bouhe was teaching her English by writing out the -Russian and having her translate into English. As far as I know this -is the only standard we have of Marina's handwriting in the Latin -alphabet. Mr. Cole. I ask you whether you have examined Commission -Exhibit 110? - -Mr. COLE. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you attempted to compare the signature "A. J. -Hidell" on Commission Exhibit 819 with the Latin or English printing, -or writing rather, in Exhibit 110, to determine whether they were both -written by the same person? - -Mr. COLE. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And what is your conclusion? - -Mr. COLE. My conclusion is that the author of the writing in the -Latin alphabet on Exhibit 110 is a possible author of the name "A. J. -Hidell" on 819, but I do not offer that as a definite conclusion. I say -"possible author" because I observed a similarity in the particular -parts where close comparison is possible, namely, with respect to the -lowercase letter "d," of which one example is found in the word "day" -on the left side of the lower one-third of Exhibit 110. The similarity -consists in the degree of roundness of the body of the letter, and the -fairly short and thin loop or the upper extension of the letter "d," -plus a similarity with respect to the terminal stroke of that letter, -the circumstance that it is not joined continuously with the letter -following. - -Another similarity is observed in the double "l's" of the word -"especially," which is on the last line at the right side of 110, and -here we have a similarity with respect to the proportion of the height -of those letters relative to other small letters. - -There is no opportunity for making a more extensive comparison between -the name "A. J. Hidell" on 819 with this standard writing. And on -that basis I would say only that the author of the standard could be -regarded as a possible author of the questioned signature. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, would the production of Cyrillic writing, that -is writing in the Russian language, be useful to you in evaluating the -signature on 819? - -Mr. COLE. I believe not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain that? - -Mr. COLE. Well, ordinarily a person who--I might say this, that the -construction in writing one alphabet and the other would be completely -different--that one would develop habits along different lines. It -could not be expected that there would be a close translation of habits -from one alphabet into another. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is enough writing present in 819 so that you believe you -could make a definite identification if you had a sufficient standard -on which to base your comparison? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; I think so. - -Mr. EISENBERG. If we obtained a greater standard, that is, a more -voluminous standard, of the handwriting of Marina Oswald or other -persons, would you undertake to make the examination and to submit your -result, either in the form of testimony or by written communication to -us, Mr. Cole? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; I would be quite willing to. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may we state on the record that the -Commission is requesting Mr. Cole to do this, if we can obtain a better -standard, and that we will attempt to obtain such a standard? - -Mr. McCLOY. Very well. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, referring to 110 again for a moment, can you -characterize the degree of skill with which the writing is produced, -that is the English or Latin alphabet present on 110? - -Mr. COLE. I would say it is an average degree of skill, fairly good -based upon the perfection of letter forms, regularity of proportions, -speed of writing--I would say fairly good. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would it require much practice in the use of the Latin -alphabet to attain the degree of skill evidenced in 110? - -Mr. COLE. Well, it would certainly take some practice. It is not the -writing of a novice in forming these particular letters. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you expand a little on what you mean by "some -practice"? A week's practice, or a month's practice, or a year's -practice? - -Mr. COLE. Of course, this depends on how intensive the practice is, but -I would certainly say more than a week's practice. - -Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Cole, have you examined the Russian script, have you -attempted to make anything out of such Russian script as we have of -Marina Oswald, have you seen standard forms? - -Mr. COLE. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. McCLOY. Might it not be helpful to look at some of that to see -whether there is anything you can make out of that that would help you -in the---- - -Mr. COLE. I am inclined to doubt it, but I would be quite willing to -take a look at it. - -Mr. McCLOY. I can understand your reasons for doubting it but there may -be something that we have here--we have here, have we not? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, we do. - -Mr. McCLOY. A very substantial number, quantities of Marina's writing -in Russian, and it may be that there is something you can glean from -that if you would look at it perhaps before you go. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I will make arrangements for Mr. Cole to see that -writing, Mr. Chairman. - -Any further question on this Fair Play for Cuba Committee card? - -Mr. McCLOY. No, I don't think so. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Finally then, Mr. Cole, I show you an item consisting -of a letter on a yellow piece of stationery, apparently torn from -a legal-size pad, addressed to Leslie Welding Co. from "Lee H. -Oswald"--signed "Lee H. Oswald"--and with an address handprinted, and -reading "Dear Sir, this is to explain that I have moved permanently to -Dallas, Texas, where I have found other employment," and so forth, and -I ask you whether you have examined that item? - -Mr. COLE. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May that be admitted as 826, Mr. Chairman? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(The item referred to was marked 826, and received into evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to compare this item with the standards -to determine whether it had been produced by the author of the -standards? - -Mr. COLE. I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion? - -Mr. COLE. It is my conclusion that the author of the standard writing -is the author of the writing shown by Exhibit 826. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you briefly give us some of the reasons for that -conclusion? - -Mr. COLE. Yes; there is an agreement in a great many details between -this letter, 826, some of which I think are more significant than -others. - -One of the really highly significant points is the formation of the -letter "x" in the word "Texas" which has already been mentioned in -connection with other exhibits. Now, this word appears on 826, on the -second---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me. That exhibit should be, have been, 820A. -Let's refer to it from now on as 820A. - -(The item referred to was renumbered.) - -Mr. COLE. The exhibit just mentioned is understood to be 820A, and the -word "Texas" appears on the second line of the body of the letter. The -method of forming this "x" is first to construct a =U=-like form, that -is, a form having two cusps with a shallow curve connecting the two, -and then to make the crossbar in such a manner that it comes very close -to the second cusp. This is a very unusual variation of the letter "x," -and it appears in the standard writing--also in the word "Texas"--in -several places, chart B, items 4, 12, and 13. - -The writing shows the tendency to exaggerate certain approach strokes -or initial strokes of letters. In the body of Exhibit 821 this is -evident in the letter "i" of "is," which is the second word of the -first line, and moving along that same first line we have the same -effect for the first stroke of the "t" of "to" and the "t" of "that." -Then moving down to the second paragraph, third word, the same effect -is shown, and this is illustrated in the standard writing in two -places, one good example being chart A, item 1, the word "to," the same -chart, item 3, the word "the." - -The construction of the small letter "p" has been mentioned heretofore, -has been characterized by an absence of an upper extension, that is, -no extension that passes above the height of the body of the letter, -and the body of the letter is made in the form of an arch, rather -than a circle closed against the staff. This is shown in the words -"presently" and "employ," which are in the last line of writing of this -exhibit, and this is repeated in the standard writing as shown by chart -A, item 2, the word "support," item 3, the word "port" and the word -"transportation." - -There is a very close agreement in all details of the signature of Lee -H. Oswald on this letter with the several examples of the signatures -shown on these charts, chart A, item 15, chart B, item 15, and chart C, -item 6, second to the last line. - -The word "Texas," including this highly significant "x," is repeated as -the last word on this letter. - -These constitute some of my reasons for believing that Exhibit 820A is -in the handwriting of the author of the standard writing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, to recapitulate then, all the standards which you -have examined and which were put in evidence, and all of the questioned -documents which you have examined and which were put in evidence, are -in the handwriting of the same person, with the exceptions you have -noted, such as "A. J. Hidell" on the penultimate exhibit, the FPCC card? - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, did you have any information concerning any -identifications or nonidentifications of handwriting made by any other -Federal agency in this matter? - -Mr. COLE. No, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you have any other information whatsoever concerning -identification or nonidentification by anyone in this matter? - -Mr. COLE. No, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you at this point have any such information? - -Mr. COLE. No, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That completes my examination, Mr. McCloy. - -Mr. McCLOY. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. McCLOY. Commission Exhibit 776 is a series of checks which have -been endorsed by Oswald, some in lead pencil and some in ink. Some of -those endorsements seem to be, rather the handwriting seems to be, -very irregular, loose, malformed, certain other ones very clear and -quite regular, and in comparison with other standards of Oswald's I -find some difficulty in conforming the signatures on certain of these -endorsements to those standards. I wonder if you would look at these -and tell me whether you have any comments in regard to the comments I -have made about this--about these checks? The first two or three there -seem to exemplify what I am talking about. - -Mr. COLE. In my opinion the endorsements on these checks show a -moderately wide range of writing habit, and they also show variations -which may be due to an attitude about the act of writing, and I am -thinking especially of the more distorted signatures, such as that -appearing on No. 2408; and by attitude I mean that a person might find -the act of writing very inconvenient or distasteful or might actually -be experiencing some strong emotion at the particular time. - -Mr. McCLOY. Could it be, might I interrupt, could it be that he was -writing while he was in movement here, while he was in an automobile or -some jolting vehicle? - -Mr. COLE. Well, that can affect handwriting, of course, but I believe -it is unlikely, because the first letter of his name is well formed. -The first letter of "Lee" on this endorsement of 2408 shows as much -skill and control as any of the better signatures. - -Mr. McCLOY. You think maybe something irritated him in between? - -Mr. COLE. That is a possibility. I think most people find the act of -writing, especially writing a signature, a pleasant thing to do. I -think that is one reason why people develop a somewhat higher skill. - -Mr. McCLOY. It depends on whether it is an endorsement of a check or a -drawing of the check. - -Mr. COLE. That could make a difference. - -Mr. McCLOY. Well, thank you very much. - -Mr. COLE. Yes, sir. - -(Whereupon, at 2:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Tuesday, May 5, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF JOHN W. FAIN, JOHN LESTER QUIGLEY, AND JAMES PATRICK -HOSTY, JR. - -The President's Commission met at 9:25 a.m. on May 5, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman -Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. -Dulles, members. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; David W. Belin, -assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; Norman -Redlich, assistant counsel; Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel; Howard -P. Willens, assistant counsel; Charles Murray, observer; and Leon -Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas. - - -TESTIMONY OF JOHN W. FAIN - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Fain, the purpose of today's hearing is to take the -testimony of members of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, including -yourself, who interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald or other important -witnesses, before and after the assassination, and concerning the -assassination of President Kennedy, both before and after. - -We will also take the testimony today of Mr. Belmont, one of your -superiors. Would you please rise, Mr. Fain, and raise your right hand -and be sworn. You solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give -before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing -but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. FAIN. I do, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please. - -Mr. Stern will conduct the examination. Mr. Stern. - -Mr. STERN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. Fain, would you state your full name for the record, please. - -Mr. FAIN. John Wythe Fain. - -Mr. STERN. And your address? - -Mr. FAIN. 12711 Pebblebrook, Houston 24, Tex. - -Mr. STERN. What is your education, Mr. Fain, at the college level? - -Mr. FAIN. After graduation from Weatherford High School in 1926, I -entered Weatherford Junior College at Weatherford, Tex., which I -finished in 2 years in 1928. After teaching school for about 4 years, I -entered the University of Texas, in the summer of 1933. I finished my -prelaw work, and in 1936, the spring of that year, I received my LL.B. -degree in law from the University of Texas. - -Mr. STERN. Are you a member of the bar, Mr. Fain? - -Mr. FAIN. I am a member of the Texas State Bar. - -Mr. STERN. Can you summarize briefly your employment experience after -receiving your law degree and before joining the Federal Bureau of -Investigation? - -Mr. FAIN. I will have to go back just a little bit there. In 1932 I -ran for the office of representative in the State Legislature from -Weatherford, Tex., my home city in Parker County, my home county, and -served two terms, no opposition on the second term, and then I did not -seek reelection at the end of the second term. I chose to go on and -get my law degree at the University of Texas. Then, in 1937 I became -employed. Robert B. Anderson, whom I suppose you know---- - -The CHAIRMAN. Former Secretary of the Treasury. - -Mr. FAIN. Former Secretary of the Treasury, yes; he and I were good -friends, and it happened, that he was in the adjoining county of -Johnson, which touched my county, Parker. I had met him in Weatherford -Junior College, and we were in the same debating society at Weatherford -Junior College, and I served in the Texas State Legislature with him, I -sat in some of his law classes at the University of Texas, and then he -was instrumental in giving me or getting me appointed to, a position as -district supervisor of the Texas Unemployment Compensation Commission. -It is now known as the Texas Employment Commission. - -I was in charge of investigations of claims for unemployment insurance, -and I served in that capacity at Waco, Tex., until on September 8 of -1942 I entered the FBI. Of course, I made my application prior to -that. I served in the Federal Bureau of Investigation as a law-trained -special agent until October 29 of 1962, upon which date I retired -voluntarily. - -Mr. STERN. Can you describe briefly your experience in the FBI. - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. After finishing my training session here at the -seat of government. I believe that lasted 12 weeks at that time, I -took my practical experience here for a couple of weeks, and then was -assigned to the Chicago, Ill., field office, where I remained for a -period of approximately 4 months. I received a transfer to Oklahoma -City, where I was 3 weeks, and then they stationed me at Tulsa, -Okla., as a resident agent, where I remained approximately a year. I -then was transferred to San Francisco, Calif., where I remained for -approximately 2 years; and in December of 1945 I was transferred to -Dallas, Tex., where I remained for approximately 5 years in the head -office there, division office in Dallas, and then I was sent to Fort -Worth in 1949 as a resident agent of the FBI, and remained there until -I voluntarily retired on October 29, 1962. - -Mr. STERN. Now, would you describe the relationship between the Fort -Worth office and the Dallas office. - -Mr. STERN. Well, the Dallas office is the headquarters city to which -I was originally assigned and, of course, in that area distances are -rather great between the cities, so we have what is known as resident -agencies, there being at that time 10 agents in the Fort Worth office. - -(At this point in the proceedings Mr. McCloy entered the hearing room.) - -And we had agents, of course, at Lubbock and Amarillo and Wichita -Falls, Sherman, Harris, and the other cities in order for economy -reasons, to save travel. It would be a rather expensive operation to go -from Dallas to those other areas. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Fain, did you specialize in any particular area of FBI -work or were your assignments general? - -Mr. FAIN. My assignments were comparatively general up until, I would -say, about 1951, at which time I specialized mostly in security -matters. Most of my investigations after 1951 were security-type -investigations. - -Mr. STERN. This is true---- - -Mr. FAIN. However, I did handle--excuse me, I did continue to -handle--other types of investigations, too. - -Mr. STERN. This is true until your retirement? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Were you in charge of the investigation of Lee Harvey Oswald -until the time of your retirement? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; up until the time we closed the case--I don't -recall the exact date, it can be verified from the report--but, I think -we closed the case, following his interview on August 26. - -Mr. STERN. Well to the extent---- - -Mr. FAIN. I want to correct that. It was August 14. - -Mr. STERN. We will get to that, Mr. Fain. But to the extent the case -was being investigated during your tenure, were you in charge of the -case? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; the case was assigned to me. - -Mr. STERN. Fine. That is all I want right now. - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. How many other cases on an average would you be in charge of -during this period from 1960 until retirement? - -Mr. FAIN. From 1960 until the time of retirement? - -Mr. STERN. Yes. - -Mr. FAIN. I don't have any exact figure on that, but I suppose I would -have 45 to 50 cases. - -Mr. STERN. At anytime? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Fain, I show you a seven-page mimeographed report marked -"Report of John W. Fain," dated May 12, 1960. Can you identify that -report? - -(Marked for identification No. 821.) - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; this is my report. - -Mr. STERN. Were you responsible for preparing this entire report, Mr. -Fain? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes; I was. - -Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed the report in preparation for your -testimony today? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Is the report correct? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Is there anything you want to correct in the report? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Is it complete in covering the events described? - -Mr. FAIN. It is. - -Mr. STERN. So that you have no additions or corrections? - -Mr. FAIN. No additions or corrections. - -Mr. STERN. Let me ask you, first, Mr. Fain, about a couple of -symbols that appear on the first page of the report. The report is -characterized as "Internal Security R." What does the "R" mean? - -Mr. FAIN. It stands for "Russia." - -Mr. STERN. At the end of the synopsis on the first page are the letters -"RUC." Can you tell us what that means? - -Mr. FAIN. That is a symbol to save typing and stenographic effort -and so forth. It is known to all agents, and it means "Referred Upon -Completion," "RUC," "Referred Upon Completion," to the office of origin -actually. In other words, it indicates that the investigation there -at that point where it was conducted has been completed and we are -referring it back. - -Mr. STERN. To an office which had prime responsibility? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; in this case I suppose it was the Bureau in -Washington. I see the Bureau file number up there at the top. - -Mr. STERN. I see. Do you recall, Mr. Fain, how you were assigned -to investigate this matter which is entitled in this report "Funds -Transmitted to Resident of Russia"? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -We received a communication, or rather the Dallas office did, from -Bureau to the effect that there was an indication that application had -been made by Mrs. Oswald, Marguerite C. Oswald, for a draft, purchase -transfer of funds, to be sent to Lee Harvey Oswald over in Russia, and -I was given the assignment to contact her and find out all I could -about the circumstances. - -Mr. STERN. Concerning the transfer of funds? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; you will notice that the title in this case is -"Funds Transmitted to Residents of Russia," that was the type of -inquiry. - -Mr. STERN. To your recollection, had you ever before this time heard -the name "Lee Harvey Oswald" or any other member of the Oswald family? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, I believe--let's see, April 27, 1960, I talked to -Robert Lee in an effort to locate his mother. - -Mr. STERN. By this time, Mr. Fain, I mean the time covered by your -report, not the date of the report. - -Mr. FAIN. Just what I read in the newspapers about his having gone over -into Russia. The papers played it up. - -Mr. STERN. Did you have any official responsibility in connection with -Lee Harvey Oswald before the time covered by this report? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir; no, I did not. - -Mr. STERN. On page 2 of the report--is this a record of an interview -that you held, Mr. Fain? - -Mr. FAIN. It is. It is a record of the interview that I conducted. - -Mr. STERN. Is this a form normally used for reporting interviews? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. What is your practice or what was your practice, while an -FBI agent, in making interviews? Would you make notes of the interview -as you interviewed a subject? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Are you familiar with any shorthand method? - -Mr. FAIN. I had a course in shorthand and, of course, still know some -of the symbols and, at that time, did use it, mixed it up with my other -English as I wrote it. I did use it. - -Mr. STERN. Can you tell from this report when you made the interview? - -Mr. FAIN. I interviewed Robert Lee Oswald, who was the brother, older -brother, of Lee Harvey Oswald, the subject of this case, on April 27, -1960, at Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. STERN. Can you tell the Commission where that appears from your -report? - -Mr. FAIN. The date of the interview? - -(At this point in the proceedings, Representative Ford entered the -hearing room.) - -Mr. STERN. Yes. - -Mr. FAIN. The date of the interview is located on the lower left-hand -corner, and also the place of the interview. - -Mr. STERN. When did you transcribe--or, first, how would you do that -normally? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, I dictated this on May 2, 1960. It evidently was -transcribed by the stenographer, as noted, on the upper right-hand -corner--this is a little dim--but it looks like May 6, 1960. This is a -very old copy. - -Mr. STERN. You would dictate this to a secretary, Mr. Fain? - -Mr. FAIN. Some of it I dictated on the dictaphone, some of it I would -do by rough draft and send by mail to Dallas, and if I happened to be -in Dallas, I would dictate to the stenographer. - -Mr. STERN. Would you ordinarily preserve your rough notes of the -interview after you dictated your report? - -Mr. FAIN. Not after it gets in this form, because this contains all the -information in the notes we have. In other words, we put everything -right in. Now this is supposed to be an exact transcript of the -information. It is not a recording of the information. I don't mean to -leave that impression. - -Mr. STERN. And you would normally destroy your notes? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; unless there was some--there would be no reason -to keep my notes, once I put all the information I was assured was in -here. Once that is true I destroyed them. - -Mr. STERN. I think these reports largely speak for themselves, Mr. -Fain, but I would like to ask you a few details to clarify statements -in the report. - -On page 3 in the report of your interview of Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, -you say in the second line, "She volunteered for interview." What does -that mean in this connection? - -Mr. FAIN. You will notice that on the lower left-hand corner it -indicates I talked to her on the 28th, April 28, which was the day -after I talked to her son Robert Lee, and evidently he had gotten in -touch with her on the same afternoon that I talked to him or that -night. Anyway she knocked on the door the next day and wanted to talk -to me; and she came in voluntarily. I believe Robert told me that he -would get in touch with her. He gave me her address, at least, and I -was going to send out a lead to have her interviewed down there, but -she came in to talk to me, voluntarily. - -Mr. STERN. Would you look at page 4 of your report, Mr. Fain, the -fourth full paragraph from the top of the page, the paragraph that -begins, "Mrs. Oswald stated," and the last sentence of that paragraph -reads, "Mrs. Oswald stated that she would not have been surprised to -learn that Lee had gone to, say, South America or Cuba, but that it -had never entered her mind that he might go to Russia or might try to -become a citizen there." As far as you can remember, is that accurately -what she said? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes; that is as she said, I put it down. She seemed very much -upset that he had gone to Russia. - -Mr. STERN. Did she explain that to you? - -Mr. FAIN. None other than this. In other words, she said she wouldn't -have been surprised that he had gone to, say, South America or Cuba, -she was taken aback by learning he had gone to Russia. You see, he had -told her he was going over to New Orleans to go to work over there, -and she was apparently very surprised that he had taken this boat to -Europe, to Russia. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Fain, in your report of your interview with Mrs. -Marguerite Oswald, you quote several letters and refer to other -specific bits of information. How did you get that so accurately? - -Mr. FAIN. She had all of those in her purse. She had all those -clippings that had appeared in the paper, and she had quite a stack of -them there, and I got the information out of those at the time. - -Mr. STERN. She displayed them to you and let you copy them? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; she displayed them to me, that is right. - -The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, are there any other questions any of you would -like to ask Mr. Fain? He has stated that everything he knows concerning -this matter is contained in his written report. - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Representative FORD. May I ask a question? - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes, indeed. - -Representative FORD. Is it the practice of the Bureau to check with -relatives of those who defect or make an attempt to defect to the -Soviet Union? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, I was--my primary motive here was--trying to locate -her. I wanted to talk to her. If I had been able to talk to her, the -mother, I probably wouldn't have contacted Robert. But he was the only -one that I could locate there that knew anything about it, about where -she might be, so I, in the course of things, interviewed him to try to -find out what I could find out from him. - -Representative FORD. I am more concerned about the overall policy. -Whenever an individual makes an attempt to defect or does defect, is -it the policy of the FBI to subsequently interview relatives of the -individual who tried or did defect? - -Mr. FAIN. Mr. Ford, I am unable to answer that because I am not versed -in overall policy, and I am sorry. I am not trying to avoid your -question, but I just actually don't know. - -Representative FORM. What prompted you then in your capacity to -interview---- - -Mr. FAIN. Robert? - -Representative FORD. Either Robert or Mrs. Oswald? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, I was instructed to get in touch with her and find out -what the situation was. The only way I could get the information was to -talk to her, and I talked to Robert only in connection with my attempts -to locate her. - -Representative FORD. But your instructions came from whom? - -Mr. FAIN. I don't have the memorandum or communication that came in -here in connection with this, but it came from the Bureau, I am sure, -through the Dallas office. - -Representative FORD. And you were working out of Dallas? - -Mr. FAIN. Right. My supervisor over in Dallas, no doubt, either called -me or else very likely he wrote an assignment and mailed it to me in -Fort Worth. - -Representative FORD. Your assignment was really to check with the -mother, both, or all? - -Mr. FAIN. Actually, I don't recall how the assignment was worded, I -really don't. I haven't seen it for over a year and a half, and I just -don't recall exactly how that came. - -Representative FORD. But the only reason for such an interview was the -fact that the son had gone to Russia and either defected or attempted -to do so; was that the basis of the investigation? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. We wanted to find out the circumstances and about -these funds and any information we could ascertain and, of course, it -is always important in this type of case to find out whether or not -any of these--especially intelligence agents or anyone like that might -contact these people and try to get information from them. We try to -get these people to let us know if anything like that happens. - -Representative FORD. That was really the purpose of the interview or -investigation you conducted? - -Mr. FAIN. Let me see if I can find out. In this paragraph 4 there is an -indication---- - -Representative FORD. Paragraph 4 on what page? - -Mr. FAIN. Paragraph 4 on page 2. "He stated he had no contact in any -manner or form with any individual known to him to be a Soviet official -or affiliated in any way with Soviet establishments. He also advised -that as far as he knows neither his mother or other members of his -family had had any contact whatsoever with Soviet officials or with -Soviet establishments." - -I explained to him the jurisdiction of the FBI, that the FBI had -jurisdiction in internal security matters in the United States, and -Robert told me that he would immediately contact the FBI in the event -he was contacted by Soviet officials. Then I also asked him, as is -contained in that final paragraph on the same page, "Oswald stated -that neither he nor his mother as far as he knew had been requested -to furnish any items of personal identification to Lee Oswald in -Russia. He said he would immediately contact the FBI in the event any -information like that came to his attention." - -Representative FORD. These were the only interviews you had with either -one of them? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; at that time, yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Can I ask a question? - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you have one at any other time? - -Mr. FAIN. These were the first interviews. We will get to those later. -Do you want to go into those? - -Mr. McCLOY. Never mind. We will get to those in due course. But wasn't -the touch-off on this investigation the fact that a transfer order -or an attempted remittance was being sent to Oswald in Russia by his -mother? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. That was the thing that prompted the inquiry, wasn't it? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; that is right. - -The CHAIRMAN. Senator. - -Senator COOPER. Yes. - -Did Mrs. Oswald give you any reason for her statement she would not -have been surprised if Lee Oswald had gone to Cuba or some South -American country? Did she explain that statement? - -Mr. FAIN. No; she didn't. She just--of course, she was all upset and -bothered by his having gone to Russia, and she expressed great surprise -that he had gone to Russia, and she said just casually or during the -course of the conversation she wouldn't have been surprised for him to -have gone, say, to South America or to Cuba, but to go to Russia, she -was totally surprised and taken aback. - -Senator COOPER. She didn't give you any reason why she would not have -been surprised---- - -Mr. FAIN. No; she didn't go into that. - -Senator COOPER. Whether he had said anything about Cuba or South -America. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Fain. Do you have other questions? - -Mr. STERN. I have other questions for him. I thought we might break it -up in the order of his reports. - -The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead. - -Mr. STERN. One last question at this stage, Mr. Fain: Did Mrs. Oswald -indicate to you in any way that she thought Lee Harvey Oswald had gone -to Russia in any capacity other than as a private citizen? - -Mr. FAIN. No; she did not. She apparently didn't know why he had gone -at all. She was surprised he had gone in the first place. - -Mr. STERN. She did not suggest in any way that he might have been an -agent of the United States or serving United States interests in Russia? - -Mr. FAIN. I think she did remark something about she believed he was a -secret agent. Maybe she was clutching at anything---- - -Mr. STERN. She did? Is that covered in that report? - -Mr. FAIN. In one of these reports I believe it is. - -Mr. STERN. I am talking about this one, as of this time. - -Mr. FAIN. No; I believe that came in something else. She told evidently -the State Department in Washington, D.C. - -Mr. STERN. Yes. - -Mr. FAIN. That is where that came from. - -Mr. STERN. I am asking whether she suggested this to you at the time of -your interview of Mrs. Oswald on April 28, 1960. - -Mr. FAIN. No; I don't recall anything of that. I have confused that. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Chairman, may we have the report admitted into evidence? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be and it will take the next number. - -Mr. STERN. That was marked for identification 821. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right. No. 821 may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 821 for -identification, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Fain, I show you a report of 11 pages dated July 3, -1961, entitled "Lee Harvey Oswald." Can you identify this report for -us, and we will number it for identification No. 822. - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; this is my report. It is dated July 3 of 1961. - -Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed this report recently in preparation for -your testimony today? - -Mr. FAIN. I have. - -Mr. STERN. Is the report complete in all respects of the subject matter -it covers? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes; it is. - -Mr. STERN. Is it accurate in all respects of the subject matter it -covers? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Is there any addition or correction you would like to make -to the report as it stands now? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. The report shows on the cover page, Mr. Fain, that a copy -was sent to the Office of Naval Intelligence in New Orleans, La. Can -you tell us why that was done? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, this investigation at this time was under internal -security category R, and you will notice that predicated on information -received by a communication of January 11, 1961, from District -Intelligence Office, Naval District, New Orleans, La., advising that -Oswald, who had attempted to defect in Russia in October 1959, and -who was a member of the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve had been given an -undesirable discharge from the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve on August 17, -1960. - -Mr. STERN. When you say the investigation was predicated on this -information, what precisely do you mean? - -Mr. FAIN. That was the reason that this report was initiated from that -incoming communication from New Orleans. - -Mr. STERN. And how did this information come to you? Was it sent to you -directly, if you know, from the New Orleans Naval District or did it -come from FBI---- - -Mr. FAIN. It would have come through Dallas, the headquarters division -office in Dallas. - -Mr. STERN. But so far as you know was it sent from New Orleans to -Dallas or from New Orleans to FBI headquarters in Washington and then -disseminated to Dallas? - -Mr. FAIN. I expect it came directly to the Dallas office. It could have -been, the office there might have gotten a copy of it, might have -gotten the original, and this might have been a copy. I just don't -recall. - -Mr. STERN. Were you instructed to make this investigation or did you -initiate it yourself on the strength of this information from the naval -district in New Orleans? - -Mr. FAIN. There again I believe that the supervisor in Dallas asked -that this case be--or did reopen it and asked for a background -investigation. It looks like this is a background type of investigation -on the individual Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. STERN. When you say "reopen," Mr. Fain, does that mean there was a -case opened previously on Lee Oswald? - -Mr. FAIN. No; I used the wrong term. I confused it with this report. -This looks a different type of investigation, this "Funds Transmitted -to Residents of Russia." - -Mr. STERN. That was not an investigation of Lee Harvey Oswald as such? - -Mr. FAIN. That is right. - -Mr. STERN. This was actually the first report concerning the individual? - -Mr. FAIN. That is correct. - -Mr. STERN. So that did this represent the opening of a case on Lee -Harvey Oswald, Mr. Fain? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes; it did. - -Mr. STERN. And as far as you know, there was no earlier investigation -of Lee Harvey Oswald as such; is that correct? - -Mr. FAIN. I believe that is correct. - -Mr. STERN. I am just asking you of your own knowledge. - -Mr. FAIN. That is right. - -Mr. STERN. You say this was a background investigation. What do you -mean by that, Mr. Fain? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, we always ascertain his correct name and aliases, and -residences, where he previously lived, his employment, his citizenship -status, his nationality background, his education, his military record, -whether or not he had any relatives, close relatives, in the Armed -Forces; and we get a physical description of him, identification -record, and where possible we always get a photograph; and his mother -furnished a copy of the photograph to us on April 28, 1960. - -Mr. STERN. On the first page of the report, the initial "C" appears -after the synopsis. What does that mean, Mr. Fain? - -Mr. FAIN. That means closed. - -Mr. STERN. What does that indicate to you in terms of the investigation? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, it indicated that we obtained the information -concerning this person, to identify him, as to who he was, something -about him, about his background; it appearing there was no further need -for investigation at that time, we closed the case. - -Mr. STERN. Your report indicates at page 8 that the files of the office -of naval intelligence in Louisiana were checked. Was that done at your -request, if you recall? Did you check those files? - -Mr. FAIN. I did not. That would have been checked in the New Orleans -division. - -Mr. STERN. Would this have been done at your request or on the -instructions of someone else? - -Mr. FAIN. I am of the opinion that that information probably came along -with the other information or subsequent to the other information on -which this case was predicated. I don't recall asking them to make any -check like that. - -Mr. STERN. The first paragraph on page 1 reads a little differently. It -says, "Information received by communication from the Naval District," -and on page 8 you refer to a check of the files of Naval Intelligence. - -Mr. FAIN. It sounds like a check was made, and they had made some -information available to us, and I incorporated it in this report. - -Mr. STERN. "They" is--who do you mean by "they"? - -Mr. FAIN. The New Orleans Division of the FBI. - -Mr. STERN. Of the FBI? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. But the first indication on page 1, when you refer to -information received by communication from the District Intelligence -Office, does that seem to indicate a check was made by the FBI office -in New Orleans or this information was delivered by the Office of Naval -Intelligence voluntarily, without request? - -Mr. FAIN. I don't recall ever dictating a request. It could have -happened, but you must remember it has been over a year and a half -since I referred to these things. And---- - -Mr. STERN. Sure. - -Mr. FAIN. That just sounds like it is a communication we received from -there, and that we opened the case based on that information. That -would be my opinion now. - -Mr. STERN. But you don't know why they would have been sending you that -information? - -Mr. FAIN. That can be ascertained. - -Mr. STERN. Yes. We, perhaps, can find out from other witnesses if you -don't remember, and if you don't know, just tell us that. - -Mr. FAIN. I do not know; I don't recall that. - -Mr. STERN. All right. On page 10, the top paragraph, in reference to a -review of the files of the passport office of the Department of State, -again do you recall whether this was done at your request by someone -else? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir; I do not. It could have been requested by letter out -of the Dallas office or it might have been that it was made up here at -seat of Government. - -Mr. STERN. But in any event did you check these files at the State -Department? - -Mr. FAIN. I did not. - -Mr. STERN. The passport office? - -Mr. FAIN. No. My investigative jurisdiction was the Fort Worth area and -vicinity. - -Mr. STERN. Again would you summarize your recollection of the purpose -and direction of the investigation at this stage, at the time covered -by this report. What do you recall to have been the purpose and -direction of the investigation? - -Mr. FAIN. At this particular point it seems we were looking at this -individual, opened the case to find out who he was and see if he was -any kind of an internal threat, a threat to the internal security of -our country. - -Mr. STERN. What was your evaluation of that question as a result of -your investigation? - -Mr. FAIN. At that time we--there was nothing appearing that he was -of any potential danger to the security of--I was trying to find out -whether or not, you will notice on page 9 there the last paragraph, -to see whether or not he was a member of the Communist Party in Fort -Worth, and my check of our confidential sources showed that there -was no knowledge available, no information available, that he was a -member of the Communist Party. That was supposed primarily my immediate -objective, to find out whether or not he was connected with the -Communist Party there in Fort Worth, in addition to the developing of -the background information on him. - -Mr. STERN. And this entered into your evaluation at the time, the fact -that he was not a member of the Communist Party? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; there was no indication that he was a member of the -Communist Party in Fort Worth. - -Mr. STERN. Was it also relevant to your evaluation that he was -apparently living in Russia at the time? - -Mr. FAIN. I beg your pardon? - -Mr. STERN. Was it also relevant to your conclusion about his not being -a threat to the internal security of the United States that at the time -he was apparently living in Russia, at the time covered by this report? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, certainly we were going to keep track of him from then -on, naturally, if he is over there. - -The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, any questions? Mr. McCloy. - -Mr. McCLOY. On the top of page 10, Mr. Chief Justice, this report -refers to the review on May 9, 1961, of the files of the passport -office. Who did make that review if you didn't make it? - -Mr. FAIN. Someone, some employee of the FBI here at the seat of -Government. - -Mr. McCLOY. How did you know it was made? - -Mr. FAIN. How did I know it was made? - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes. - -Mr. FAIN. The communication concerning the results of the check were -sent by mail back to Dallas, and then my supervisor sent it to me at -Fort Worth. - -Mr. McCLOY. That is how it came to be embodied in your report? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; and I covered it in my report. - -Mr. McCLOY. I see. Have we got a copy of that? Do we have that review, -the report of that review? - -Mr. STERN. We will receive testimony concerning it from the Assistant -to the Director of the Bureau. - -Mr. McCLOY. Will we be able to examine the person who examined Mrs. -Oswald and to whom apparently she said that she thought he was a secret -agent, that Oswald was a secret agent? - -Mr. STERN. I am sure we can arrange that. That would have been someone -in the State Department. - -Mr. McCLOY. That is right. But you don't know anything except what is -stated in the report here? - -Mr. FAIN. That is correct, as a result of a communication from this -office to Dallas. - -Mr. McCLOY. No further reasons that you recall in that report as to why -she thought he was a secret agent or he might have been a secret agent? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir; I am sure I copied it from that report just like it -was there. She expressed the thought that, perhaps, her son had gone to -the Soviet Union as a secret agent, and the State Department was not -doing enough to help him. - -Mr. McCLOY. All right. - -The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford. - -Representative FORD. No questions. - -The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper. - -Senator COOPER. Again I ask you, on page 6, the second paragraph, it -states, "Mrs. Oswald also stated the subject had mentioned something -about his desire to travel and said something also about the fact that -he might go to Cuba." Do you remember whether or not she talked to you -about that? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; that was the information that she gave me on April -28. If you will notice from the first paragraph on April 28, 1960, -Mrs. Marguerite Oswald stated that was a repeat, in other words, of -the information that actually was contained in this first report we -mentioned a while ago. - -Senator COOPER. On page 8 she stated she had not been requested to -furnish any items of personal identification of the subject in Russia. -What is meant by that "personal identification"? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, in these espionage cases we wanted to be sure that -they hadn't been contacted by the Soviet intelligence agencies for any -purpose or any reason at all. We didn't know whether maybe he went -over there and maybe they had gotten in touch with his parents or his -relatives and demanded any information about him to verify who he was, -and so forth. - -Mr. McCLOY. Could you remember the photograph that Mrs. Oswald -presented to you of Lee Oswald? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; I don't remember the details right now, but I -believe it was a photograph of him in the service. - -Mr. McCLOY. So far as you can recollect it was in uniform? - -Mr. FAIN. I just don't recall the facts. - -Mr. McCLOY. You don't recall that he was carrying any weapons? - -Mr. FAIN. He was not. I am sure he was not carrying any weapons. I -don't believe, I am certain--I don't believe--he was in uniform at all. -I think it was a picture of him. The picture, as I recall it, was not a -recent picture. It was 3 or 4 years old. - -Mr. McCLOY. All right. - -(At this point in the proceedings, Senator Cooper leaves the hearing -room.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well, Mr. Stern, you may continue with the next -item. - -Mr. STERN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. May we admit Exhibit 822 for -identification at this time? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted under that number. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 822 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Fain, I show you Commission Exhibit No. 823 for -identification, a report of 15 pages dated July 10, 1962. Can you -identify this report for the Commission? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; this is my report dated July 10, 1962. - -Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed this report in preparation for your -testimony today? - -Mr. FAIN. I have. - -Mr. STERN. Is it correct in all respects concerning the material -covered? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Is there anything you would like to add to any of the data -set forth there? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir; I believe not. - -Mr. STERN. It carries on page 1 after the synopsis the symbol "P." What -does that mean, Mr. Fain? - -Mr. FAIN. Pending, a pending case. - -Mr. STERN. Now, the case was closed, I believe you told us, as of the -time of your last report which was Commission No. 822. Can you tell -us how this report, this Exhibit 823 for identification, came to be -prepared, and how the investigation reflected in this report came to be -held? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; there began to appear various items of information -that this subject, Lee Oswald, was preparing or was desiring to come -back to the United States, and---- - -Mr. STERN. How did you learn this, Mr. Fain? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, the various communications which I received or -which our office there received, and various checks that the State -Department---- - -Mr. STERN. Excuse me, by your office there what do you mean, Dallas? - -Mr. FAIN. The communications would come over to me from Dallas from my -supervisor. - -Mr. STERN. Yes. - -Mr. FAIN. And he would get the communications from the seat of -Government. - -Mr. STERN. "The seat of Government" is the way you refer in the Bureau -to the Federal Bureau of Investigation? - -Mr. FAIN. The Federal Bureau of Investigation or it might have come -from the Washington field office here. - -Mr. STERN. So the seat of Government can mean any communication -from Washington, either from your field office here or from your -headquarters? - -Mr. FAIN. That is the way I have been referring to it as seat of -Government. - -Mr. STERN. I see. All right. Please continue telling us how this -investigation was carried out. - -Mr. FAIN. I was given the assignment to contact his folks, Mrs. Oswald, -his mother, and---- - -Mr. STERN. By whom, if you recall, Mr. Fain? Was this an assignment -that came from FBI headquarters or from---- - -Mr. FAIN. This incidentally, this communication, we got dated September -1, 1961, from the Washington field office. You see the seat of -Government is the main headquarters, in D.C. - -Then we have a field office there, Washington field office, that we -refer to as WFO, which is an office similar to the Dallas division or -the Buffalo division or other divisions, a working division that goes -out and conducts investigations in the area. I was given the assignment -to contact Mrs. Oswald, the mother, and to find out any information -that she might have. They had been cooperative, and I wanted to see -what the situation was, and especially when this boy was coming home. -We wanted to interview him and stay on top of the situation, and in -that connection I contacted Robert Lee Oswald again because she wasn't -in town, I couldn't locate her. - -Mr. STERN. Where in your report is that stated? - -Mr. FAIN. On page 4. He gave me her address, said she had gone to -a ranch around Vernon, Tex., in the western area and our agent at -Wichita Falls made contact with her. That is set out in the middle of -the page--the results of of the contact. - -Mr. STERN. That was at what time? - -Mr. FAIN. On October 13 "Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, 1808 Eagle Street, -Apartment No. 3, Vernon, Texas, advised that about 2 months previously -she had received from her son," and so forth. - -Mr. STERN. It took this period of time from your interview in -September---- - -Mr. FAIN. September 18. - -Mr. STERN. To locate Mrs. Oswald? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. That is about 3 weeks, isn't it? - -Mr. STERN. Yes. - -Mr. FAIN. I think, my recollection is, he had difficulty locating her -in that sparsely settled western country. I think he had to go to -several different towns and finally located her. - -Mr. STERN. So that the interview of Mrs. Oswald reflected at the bottom -of page 4 was the interview conducted by another agent at your request; -is that right? - -Mr. FAIN. That is at the request of the Dallas office, that is right. - -The CHAIRMAN. May I interrupt a moment, gentlemen? I have a commitment -at the Smithsonian Institution for about 45 minutes, and so I will -be obliged to leave at this time. Congressman Ford, will you preside -during my absence, and if you should be obliged to leave for your -congressional duties, leave it in charge of Mr. McCloy to do it. I -expect to be back in three-quarters of an hour. - -(At this point in the proceedings, the Chairman leaves the hearing -room.) - -Representative FORD [presiding]. Will you proceed, please, Mr. Stern. - -Mr. STERN. Yes, sir. Was your interview with Robert Lee Oswald at your -instance or did he volunteer? - -Mr. FAIN. I located him for interview and tried to locate his mother -and, incidentally, in that connection he was very cooperative, and -I obtained all the information that he had that I could, and he -volunteered a lot of this information. - -Mr. STERN. Had you previously asked him to let you know if he had -received any communication from his brother? - -Mr. FAIN. I had asked him to be sure to let us know in case--I told him -we wanted to talk to him when he came back. - -Mr. STERN. You told him you wanted to know when Lee Harvey Oswald was -coming back, but not whether he had any specific communication? - -Mr. FAIN. We specifically wanted him to let us know if he had any -contact with Soviet intelligence agents, anything like that, anything -that he thought might not look right, to be sure and let us know. - -Mr. STERN. Then on page 8 it says that "Mrs. Robert Oswald promised to -advise upon his arrival." Were you---- - -Mr. FAIN. That was the wife of Robert. - -Mr. STERN. Yes. Did you interview Mrs. Oswald, Mrs. Robert Oswald? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; yes, I did. - -Mr. STERN. What was the occasion for that interview, Mr. Fain? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, to be sure and have someone let us know when this boy -Lee arrived back in town. - -Mr. STERN. You were willing to rely on her advice? - -Mr. FAIN. We had no reason not to. They had been very cooperative, both -Mrs. Oswald and Robert Oswald. Robert is an older brother of Lee. I -think he was about 2 years older than Lee. - -Mr. STERN. Did Mrs. Robert Oswald advise you voluntarily that she had -received this postcard from Lee Harvey Oswald or did this come up when -you stopped by? That is at the bottom of page 7. - -Mr. FAIN. Yes; I believe she volunteered that. She had said or I might -have asked her if she had any word from Lee. I don't recall now just -how the conversation came up, but she said she had received a postal -card from him on or about May 15, and it had been dated April 10. - -Mr. STERN. When did you finally learn that he had arrived in Fort -Worth, Mr. Fain? - -Mr. FAIN. Let's see, that was on, it must have been, the morning of the -26th, June 26. - -Mr. STERN. How did you learn this information? - -Mr. FAIN. They hadn't let me know, and I began to think it was time for -checking on this thing. - -Mr. STERN. And by "they" you mean---- - -Mr. FAIN. Robert had not let me know, and Mrs. Oswald had not let me -know, so I thought I had better make an independent check, and so I -inquired of them, and she told me that he and his wife and child had -arrived in Fort Worth on June 14, and I asked her, "Why hadn't you let -me know about it?" And she said, "Well, actually the whole family had -been so harassed and that he just didn't feel like letting his face be -shown outside of the house." In other words, he was afraid that the -newspapers would come and harass him again, I guess. - -Mr. STERN. Were there newspaper stories about his arrival, do you -recall? - -Mr. FAIN. There were some that appeared in the paper which I have set -out on page 8 and page 9. Yes; I refer to them on page 8 where they -report his having gone to Russia. - -Mr. STERN. Had these come to your attention before June 26? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; yes, sir. I kept up with these and was careful to -clip them and put them in the file. - -Mr. STERN. So that is it true that you knew before June 26 that he had -returned? - -Mr. FAIN. No; I didn't know until that morning. I had no way of knowing -that. There were some verifying communications which I set out on page -10 showing when he actually came in; page 10, you will notice, shows -a check of records again back here showing when he actually left over -there and when he arrived here. He arrived in New York City June 13 and -then took a plane to Dallas, where he arrived on the 14th. - -Mr. STERN. Yes; I thought I had understood you to say that the -newspapers reflected his arrival in Fort Worth. - -Mr. FAIN. No; they were over there on pages 8 and 9. June 8, 1962, in -the Fort Worth Star Telegram, daily newspaper of Fort Worth, there -appeared a photograph of the subject, Lee Oswald, and the headline -"Ex-Marine Reported On Way Back From Russia." - -Mr. STERN. But there was no news story actually reporting his arrival? - -Mr. FAIN. No; he was staying in, apparently that was the reason, I -guess he didn't want to get out because he was afraid he would be -harassed by the neighbors or somebody and, at least, that is what Mrs. -Oswald said. He just---- - -Mr. STERN. The harassment by newspaper reporters you referred to, -probably did not mean reporters at the time of his arrival in Fort -Worth. - -Mr. FAIN. Well, she was--I suppose she indicated or she said that he -just hadn't gotten out of the house. In other words, he came in there -on the 14th and apparently, according to her story, he didn't show his -face outside that house. - -Mr. STERN. Then what did you do when you learned he had arrived? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, I told her I would like to talk to him, he was there, -and I made arrangements for him to come to the office and he said he -could make it by 1 o'clock. I requested B. Tom Carter, my senior agent, -to assist if he would me in interviewing Oswald, who came in about 10 -minutes before 1. He came in the office like he said he would, and we -talked to him on June 26, 1962. - -Mr. STERN. Before you interview any subject, Mr. Fain, do you have a -practice of giving him any cautionary statement, any warning? - -Mr. FAIN. It was always my policy, and I am sure I did in this case, -to tell them this substantially, that, "You don't have to furnish us -any information. Any information you furnish can be used against you in -court, and you have a right to consult with an attorney before giving -us any information or statements." - -Mr. STERN. Can you actually recall that you said this to Oswald? - -Mr. FAIN. I don't recall specifically, but I know it was my religious -practice to do it because we are always instructed to do that. - -Mr. STERN. Fine. - -Was the interview with Mr. Oswald recorded mechanically in any way? - -Mr. FAIN. It was not. - -Mr. STERN. How did you record what he was telling you, in your usual -fashion? - -Mr. FAIN. I was sitting behind the desk. He came up and sat down in -front of the desk, and Mr. Carter was sitting to my left. We explained -to him, we wanted to talk to him. I took the notes, and from my notes I -dictated this, which we call an FD-302. - -Mr. STERN. This is your memorandum and not Agent Carter's? - -Mr. FAIN. That is right; I was more familiar with the case. I took the -notes and did the dictation. - -Mr. STERN. And the dictation was when? - -Mr. FAIN. July 2, 1962; transcribed July 6, 1962. - -Mr. STERN. These dates appear where? - -Mr. FAIN. The date of dictation is shown on the lower right-hand -corner; date of interview at the left, and date of transcription or -typing was on July 6, upper right-hand corner. - -Mr. STERN. What was Lee Harvey Oswald's demeanor in the course of this -interview? - -Mr. FAIN. He was tense, kind of drawn up, and rigid. He is a wiry -little fellow, kind of waspy. - -Mr. STERN. Did he answer all of your questions? - -Mr. FAIN. No; he didn't. As indicated there in the fourth paragraph, -he was a little insolent in his answers. He was the type of individual -who apparently doesn't want to give out information about himself, and -we asked him why he had made this trip to Russia, and he looked like -it got under his skin, and I noticed he got white around the lips and -tensed up, and I understood it to be a show of a temper, and in a show -of temper he stated he did not care to relive the past. He didn't want -to go into that at all. - -We asked him, I think I asked him, in various ways, three or four -times, trying to ascertain just what the situation was, and he finally -stated, that Soviet officials had asked him upon his arrival why he had -come to Russia, and he told us, "I came because I wanted to." That is -what he said he told the Soviet People, "I came because I wanted to," -and he said, he told them, "I came over here to see the country." That -is the kind of answers he gave. - -Mr. STERN. Do you remember any other details of this interview that -you haven't set forth here? I can't stress too greatly that we are -interested in any detail, any fragment of this interview that you -recall that isn't set forth here, any elaboration you want to make. - -Mr. FAIN. No---- - -Mr. STERN. Why don't you read it through carefully now and, as you go -through, add to it in any way that you wish to, tell us anything else -that you remember, any small detail that occurs to you. I don't mean -read it out loud, read it to yourself. - -Mr. FAIN. I see. - -Our primary objective at this time was to ascertain whether or not the -Soviets had demanded anything of him in letting him get out of the -country and permitting his wife to come along with him, and you will -notice down there in paragraph 12---- - -Mr. STERN. Page 12. - -Mr. FAIN. Excuse me, page 12, paragraph 4 of page 12, he stated that -the Soviets made it very difficult for him to obtain permission for his -wife to leave Russia, and that the process of obtaining permission for -her to leave was a long, difficult course requiring much paper work. -But he was just referring there to the length of time, and he denied -that they had attempted to get anything from him or demand anything -from him; and he denied that they had ever sought information from him -of detriment to our country. - -I don't recall anything, anything in addition to what is set out here. - -Mr. McCLOY. No suggestion that he was a secret agent? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. He had made no such suggestion to you as to that? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever have any suspicion that he might have been? - -Mr. FAIN. That he may have been rewarded by the Russians and asked -to do something or certain things about him? Well, an FBI agent is -naturally suspicious, of course, of anything like that. Of course, he -denied it. He denied that they demanded anything of him. - -Mr. McCLOY. And you never had any indication that he was a secret agent -of any other country? - -Mr. FAIN. No, no. - -Mr. McCLOY. Including the United States? - -Mr. FAIN. You mean that he might have gone over there and seek out -information for us? - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes. - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir; no, sir; nothing like that. - -Representative FORD. At the time you had this interview with Oswald, -did you have the information, for example, that appears on the first -page of Commission No. 823 under the heading "Details"? - -Mr. FAIN. This information there was furnished by the Office of Naval -Intelligence. I didn't check the records on that. That came in by -communication. Does that answer the question, Mr. Ford? - -Representative FORD. What I was inquiring about was did you have this -information available to you at the time you interviewed him on July 13 -or 14---- - -Mr. STERN. June 26. - -Representative FORD. June 26? - -Mr. FAIN. June 26; yes, sir. I am sure I did, because that is on March -20. I read they had sent it. - -Representative FORD. In other words, you undoubtedly had---- - -Mr. FAIN. I had access to anything in our files there pertaining to -this case. - -Representative FORD. You had information. For example, you were -familiar with the statement in a report that, and I quote, "Subject -allegedly told the embassy he had advised unnamed Soviet officials -that as a former Marine radar operator he would make available to them -information about his Marine Corps specialty when he became a Soviet -citizen." - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; that was an allegation that was made over there. -As I recall that was obtained in a check at the embassy, United States -Embassy. - -(At this point in the proceedings, Mr. Dulles enters the hearing room.) - -Representative FORD. Did you make any inquiry as to whether or not -that was an accurate statement alleged to have been made by him to an -embassy official? - -Mr. FAIN. Mr. Carter and I asked him, all about those things. Of -course, he denied it. - -Representative FORD. Did he make any specific denial of that, as you -recall? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes; we asked him if he had been asked about anything -concerning his specialty while in the Marine Corps and I think he said -no, that he had not. - -Representative FORD. What confuses me is, one, that he denied this to -you, but then he apparently at some prior time had told the Embassy -that he had advised unnamed Soviet officials that as a former Marine -radar operator he would make available to them information about his -Marine Corps specialty when he became a Soviet citizen. - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; we were aware of that, that statement. He denied -it, and he also denied that he had ever denounced his United States -citizenship, and he denied to Mr. Carter and me that he had ever -applied for Soviet citizenship specifically. - -Mr. STERN. Was it your practice, Mr. Fain, to review the files on a -subject before you interviewed him? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Can you recall whether you did that in this case? - -Mr. FAIN. I certainly did, yes, sir; there were so many details and -so many allegations you had to study it long hours to get the thing -further in mind. - -Mr. STERN. But you think you did that before you interviewed Oswald? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. In view of the purpose of the investigation, the interest -that you had, what was your overall evaluation of Oswald as a result of -this interview? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, that was--of course, that would be calling for my -opinion, and we are interested only in getting facts on this case, -facts, and all I could say is that he seemed tense. - -Mr. DULLES. He seemed tense? - -Mr. FAIN. Tense, yes, sir; and drawn up. I don't know whether he was -just scared or what his situation was, but he was--he exhibited an -arrogant attitude, arrogant, cold, and inclined to be just a little -insolent. - -Mr. STERN. When he did tell you something would you tend to believe -that he was telling you the truth or not? Did you form an impression of -his veracity? - -Mr. FAIN. Well the information we had was that he had applied to -renounce his citizenship, and he had applied for Soviet citizenship, -and yet he denied that. It was just a flat denial and I had no way of -knowing whether he was telling the truth or not. It is a thing that you -cannot always tell. We got answers from him as set out here. He would -give you some kind of answer. - -Mr. STERN. Who was your immediate superior on a case like this, not his -name, but describe his function. - -Mr. FAIN. He was on the desk in Dallas, and all of these -investigations, all of my work, went across his desk. He would make the -assignments also. - -Mr. STERN. Tell the Commission what you mean by "the desk," please. - -Mr. FAIN. The supervisory desk in the Dallas office that handled -security-type matters, and this report would go across his desk, and -the assignments that would come to me would be made by him. - -Mr. STERN. Did you discuss the Oswald case with your desk supervisor at -this time, upon the completion of this interview? - -Mr. FAIN. I don't recall specifically talking to him at this time. If I -had been over there in the next few days I imagine I would have talked -to him or did talk to him. You see, I was in Fort Worth. - -Mr. STERN. Yes. - -Mr. FAIN. And normally I would dictate my reports, and they would go by -mail to Dallas and, of course, we were in telephonic contact, any time -anything came up of any problem nature. - -Mr. STERN. Would you have discussed the case with your supervisor if -you thought that there was a particular and immediate problem? - -Mr. FAIN. Oh, certainly; yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did you think that there was a particular and immediate -problem following your interview? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, I didn't feel satisfied because of his answers there as -to why he went to Russia. He was evasive, and that was the reason I set -out a lead to have him reinterviewed. - -Mr. STERN. What do you mean by that, Mr. Fain? - -Mr. FAIN. To talk to him again. You see, at this time he had just come -to town and he was out there at his brother's place. He had a wife -and a little 4-month-old baby that he had brought from Russia, and -he didn't have any established place to live, and I can see how the -newspapers may have harrassed him, and it might have been, very likely -was, that he didn't want to show himself out of the house, but I felt -under the circumstances he ought to be talked to again, he ought to be -interviewed in detail about these same things and, consequently, I did -set out a lead. - -Mr. STERN. What does that mean in terms of your procedures? - -Mr. FAIN. In my report I just suggested that he be reinterviewed. - -Mr. STERN. Is that in this report? - -Mr. FAIN. That might have been my transmittal--no, it doesn't show -here. It is probably on the transmittal to the chief of the Dallas -office. - -Mr. STERN. A recommendation that he be---- - -Mr. FAIN. A recommendation, yes, that he be reinterviewed because I -wasn't thoroughly satisfied with some of the answers he gave. - -Mr. DULLES. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, whether we should not have that -transmittal letter; it seems to be pertinent to the case. - -Representative FORD. I think it would be helpful in light of the -testimony, Mr. Fain. - -Mr. FAIN. It was a lead sheet, what we call a lead, and I recall that -on that I suggested that the records of Immigration and Naturalization -Service be checked and incorporated, and also that he be reinterviewed. -Those were the two things I remember specifically having put in the -report. - -Representative FORD. That would be a cover to Commission No. 823? - -Mr. FAIN. A lead sheet; yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. We are going to have the testimony, gentlemen, of Mr. Alan -Belmont, the third-ranking official of the Bureau, who can testify -from an overall Bureau viewpoint on the way this case was handled and -be able to respond to questions of that sort, what was in the internal -memoranda, transmittal documents, and things of that sort. - -Mr. DULLES. That is satisfactory. - -Mr. STERN. Anything else at all, Mr. Fain, that you can tell us about -this interview that we haven't covered already? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir; I put it all on this 302. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Chairman, may we have admitted Commission Exhibit 823 -for identification? - -Representative FORD. It will be so admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 823 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Fain, I show you a report marked Commission No. 824 for -identification, an eight-page report dated August 30, 1962. Can you -identify this report? - -Mr. DULLES. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; this is my report of August 30, 1962. It is a -closing report, a report that records the result of an investigation -pursuant to the lead I set out in this other report, referring to the -reinterviewing. - -Mr. STERN. This followed your other report by some 7 weeks? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes. I talked to him the last time June 26, 1962, and this -interview was conducted August 16, 1962. - -Mr. STERN. And the early report was dated July 10, 1962. - -Mr. McCLOY. July 10, 1962. - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; and this report August 30. - -Mr. STERN. August 30. - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed this report recently, Mr. Fain? - -Mr. FAIN. I have. - -Mr. STERN. In preparation for your testimony today? - -Mr. FAIN. I have. - -Mr. STERN. Is there any statement in it you would like to correct? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Any information you would like to add to the data that are -set forth? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. What was the occasion for the investigative work reported in -this document, Mr. Fain? - -Mr. FAIN. You will recall that I had set out a lead to reinterview -him. I felt that he had just gotten back, from Russia on the previous -interview, and that he might have been upset naturally, and a -reinterview might be more productive. He might feel now settled down, -so I set about to locate him and to talk to him again. - -Mr. STERN. How did you locate him, Mr. Fain? - -Mr. FAIN. On August 14 I contacted Robert again, Robert L. Oswald, the -older brother, at 7313 Davenport, and he told me that Lee Harvey had -moved, that he didn't have his house number, but he was on Mercedes -Street, west of Montgomery Ward & Co., just off Seventh Street. - -Mr. STERN. In Fort Worth? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; in Fort Worth. And then I went there. He gave me -the name of the street, and I went there and made some inquiries, and -finally ascertained from an adjoining neighbor, just east of Lee's -house--these were little duplex apartments--and she told me, yes, there -is a Mr. Oswald who just moved in next door a few days ago. - -Then on August---- - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask, did she seem to know him at all well? - -Mr. FAIN. No; she didn't, she hadn't met them, but she just said some -people had moved in, and that was enough for me. Robert had told me, -had indicated pretty much where it was, and the fact is he gave me -pretty good directions as to where to go. As a matter of fact, he had -been down there himself in the apartment apparently, but he just didn't -have the house number. - -Mr. STERN. What did you do after you located the house, Mr. Fain? - -Mr. FAIN. After I located the house on the 15th, and I made -arrangements to have another agent and I go out there and reinterview -him. I didn't want to go to his house. I didn't want to contact his -wife. I knew from the background we had conducted that she could not -speak English. She could speak Russian only, and I didn't know any -Russian, so it wouldn't have been any point in my contacting her and -upsetting her. - -So this agent and I in an automobile took up a surveillance at the end -of the street out of sight of the house and away from the house, and -waited until he came from work. - -We observed him toward the end of the day, and I suppose it must have -been around 5:30, something like that, in the late afternoon, walking -down the street, and we then moved up in front of his house. - -Of course, I knew him and he knew me from a previous interview, and I -spoke to him, "Hi, Lee. How are you?" I said, "Would you mind talking -with us just a few minutes?" So he got in the back seat. I remained -in the front seat. Arnold J. Brown, the other agent, was in the back -seat with him, and we talked with him there, and the results of the -interview are set out here on page 4. - -Mr. STERN. Was it your normal practice to conduct an interview in teams? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. This interview you conducted with Agent Brown, and your -previous interview you conducted with Agent Carter, I believe? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; Agent Carter was with me on the first one, and -Arnold Brown was on the second one. - -Mr. STERN. Why is that, Mr. Fain? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, in case something comes up in these important interview -cases which might have some evidentiary value, we like to have two -agents present. - -Mr. STERN. Is your general rule always to have two agents when you -interview any subject? - -Mr. FAIN. Subject, particularly if it is something other than routine; -yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. This, as far as you were concerned, was something other than -routine? - -Mr. FAIN. In internal security cases, in a case of this magnitude and -this importance, we would always have two agents present. - -Mr. STERN. When you say a case of this magnitude and a case of this -importance, what do you have in mind? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, this man had been to Russia, and we wanted to try to -find out whether he had been recruited by the Russians to do a job -against the United states. - -Mr. STERN. So this, in relation to your other cases, was an important -case? - -Mr. FAIN. It was important. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you often conduct interviews in a car or was this rather -unusual? - -Mr. FAIN. We felt that in this case we could get his cooperation better -if we could show to him that we weren't trying to embarrass him. I -explained to him that afternoon, "We didn't contact you at your place -of employment; we didn't want to embarrass you before your employer," -and didn't want to upset his wife and, therefore, I hadn't bothered his -wife, and we just felt if we talked to him there in the car informally, -he would better cooperate with us. - -Mr. DULLES. It wasn't because he showed reluctance to have you go in -the house or didn't invite you or anything of that kind? - -Mr. FAIN. Oh, no; no. Actually he invited us in when we stopped him. He -said, "Won't you come in the house?" And I said, "Well, we will just -talk here. We will be alone to ourselves and we will be informal, and -just fine." So he got in the car with Agent Brown. - -Mr. McCLOY. Was he actually less truculent than he had been before? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes; he had actually settled down. He had gotten a job at -Leslie Machine Shop, and he wasn't as tense. He seemed to talk more -freely with us. - -Mr. McCLOY. He indicated that he had been or his wife had been in -constant communication with the Soviet Embassy here? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, he told me on the previous interview that he would have -to get in touch with the Russian Embassy and let them know that his -wife was in this country, and to let them know his address, and I asked -him if he had done that, and he said he had in this second interview. -He said he would have to contact them. The way he termed it, his -phraseology was, that the Soviet law was that a person in her position -coming over here, a citizen from Russia, must notify the Soviet Embassy -of her current address, and he said that should be done periodically. - -Mr. STERN. Did you discuss his discharge from the Marine Corps? - -Mr. FAIN. We actually went over substantially everything we had asked -him before. - -Mr. STERN. Did he seem concerned about that? - -Mr. FAIN. The fact that he had been given the unfavorable discharge? I -believe now, I don't recall just exactly whether I asked him right at -that time whether there had been any disposition of that, and maybe I -did. - -Mr. STERN. The third paragraph on page 4 refers to that, and I just -wondered if you could say more about it. - -Mr. FAIN. Yes; he just advised about the matter of having been given -an undesirable discharge had not been reviewed. We did ask him that -because he brought it up and mentioned it before. - -Mr. STERN. Did he seem---- - -Mr. FAIN. He didn't know when it would be heard at that time. He said -he didn't know when it would be heard. - -Mr. STERN. Did he seem angry about it, the status? - -Mr. FAIN. No; just answered it and didn't seem ruffled. - -Mr. STERN. At any point in the course of the interview did he display -anger or irritation? - -Mr. FAIN. The only point he did, was when we asked him again why -he went to the Soviet Union in the first place, and I didn't like -his answer there. That is set out on the bottom of page 5. He still -declined to answer questions as to why he went to the Soviet Union in -the first instance. He said he considered it nobody's business why he -wanted to go to the Soviet Union. Finally he stated he went over to -Russia for his own personal reasons. He said it was a personal matter -to him. He said, "I went and I came back." He said "It was something -that I did." So he just bowed his neck and apparently wasn't going to -tell anything further at all on that point. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question? On the bottom of the earlier page, -page 1, where it stated that Oswald was interviewed when he first -arrived at the Soviet Union, and he stated he was interviewed when he -was about to leave by representatives of the MVD, he was quite clear -about the MVD and not the KGB? - -Mr. FAIN. That is right; he indicated the MVD. - -Mr. DULLES. And he clearly said MVD? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; he described it as being--handling criminal matters -among the population generally, is the way he described it. - -Mr. DULLES. That might be. That is really the Ministry of the Interior, -and the KGB is the secret security services, which has been sometimes -controlling and sometimes has been under the Ministry of the Interior. - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; he indicated to us just the ordinary way. In other -words, I gathered from him that the police interviewed him when he came -in, and also he said the police interviewed him when he left. But he -said he made no deals with them or with any intelligence agents of the -Soviet system. - -Representative FORD. On page 2, Mr. Fain, are written two words. One is -"Texas," is that, and another is "Noloc."' - -Mr. FAIN. I have no knowledge of who put that on or how that came -there. I guess that looks like maybe "Texas" up there at the top. - -Representative FORD. Would the second be "no location." Is that an -abbreviation for that? - -Mr. FAIN. That probably has reference to somebody's notation. It may -have been on the desk over there; no location for the uncle, no city -stated for his location. - -Representative FORD. Would that be something added by someone other -than yourself? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; I did not make that notation. I have no knowledge -as to who did. It was made in Dallas. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Fain, apart from the question of why he went to the -Soviet Union in the first place, was he reluctant to answer any other -questions that you put to him? - -Mr. FAIN. As I recall it, he answered the other questions fairly -readily, and he appeared to be a lot more relaxed than he was the first -time. - -Mr. STERN. Throughout the interview? - -Mr. FAIN. With the exception of this, he kind of bowed up there, and -said, it was a personal matter as to why he went over there. He said -he came and he went back. Just a little bit insolent. He said it was -nobody's business. - -Mr. STERN. How long did this interview last, Mr. Fain? - -Mr. FAIN. I don't recall exactly, but I expect we talked to him about -an hour, maybe an hour and 15 minutes, something like that. - -Mr. STERN. How does that compare with the length of time of your first -interview with him in your office? - -Mr. FAIN. As I recall, the first interview, and again I don't recall -it exactly, but I was of the opinion we talked to him for maybe an -hour and a half, and maybe 2 hours. It was close to 2 hours because -we couldn't cover all the questions in a lesser period of time. We -approached the things in different ways and from different angles, and -to see if he wouldn't give us the information. - -Mr. STERN. Would you read over these three pages of your memorandum -of the interview, pages 4, 5, and 6 of the report, and see if there -is anything you would like to add or clarify, any detail that occurs -to you now that you didn't cover there, any flavor or color of the -interview that you wouldn't ordinarily put in your report that you can -tell us about? - -Mr. FAIN. All right, sir; it is in there. It is indicated in the last -paragraph. - -Mr. STERN. On what page? - -Mr. FAIN. Page 6. Really there is no point in repeating, but he did -play down during the entire interview--he seemed to be just a little -bit derisive of our questions, and hesitated to bring out whether or -not the Soviet intelligence officials might have been interested in him -or might have contacted him, and he downgraded or played that down. -He just didn't think he was that important; in other words, that they -would want to contact him. - -Mr. DULLES. How was he on that point, was he strong on that point, did -he press that point? - -Mr. FAIN. No; there wasn't anything remarkable about that different -from the other. He saw no reason why the Soviets would want to contact -him. He didn't feel like he was of any importance to them. He said that -he would cooperate with us and report to us any information that would -come to his attention. - -Mr. DULLES. On the bottom of--excuse me. - -Mr. FAIN. That is all right; I was through. - -Mr. DULLES. On the bottom of page 1 of your report, page 4 of the -exhibit, it is indicated that this report was made by Special Agent -Arnold J. Brown and by you. Do you recall who dictated the report? - -Mr. FAIN. I did. - -Mr. DULLES. And was it concurred in by Special Agent Arnold J. Brown? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. He saw it? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. He concurred in it? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; he saw the dictated, the finished document and -initialed it. - -Representative FORD. What kind of covering letter did you send with -this to the Dallas office, if any? - -Mr. FAIN. There would be none because this is closed. In other words, -there didn't seem to be any evidence that he had a potential for -violence or anything like that, and we just closed the case, and this -went over there very likely without any transmittal. - -Mr. DULLES. Where is there an indication here that the case was closed? - -Mr. FAIN. "C." This letter "C" under the synopsis is a symbol we use -just to save typing time, it stands for closed. - -Representative FORD. Who makes that determination? - -Mr. FAIN. As to whether the ease would be closed or not? - -Representative FORD. Yes. - -Mr. FAIN. It was my determination and my recommendation it be closed. -Of course, the report goes to the supervisor's desk in the Dallas -office, and if he concurs he lets it go on through, and if he declines -he would send it back for additional investigation or other action, -whatever he deemed appropriate. - -Mr. DULLES. Was there a written recommendation that this case be closed -other than this? - -Mr. FAIN. No; other than this, no. - -Mr. DULLES. That "C" is all? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Is that "C" put on by you? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; in my dictation. - -Representative FORD. In your dictation? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; to show the case closed. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you get any approval or disapproval of that, or, if it -is not disapproved, you consider it conclusive? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, if it is going to be disapproved, I would hear probably -the third day, or if he wanted to get on the telephone and call me to -do something additional that he thought ought to be done, then I would -be told to do some additional work on it. - -Representative FORD. What is the significance of the third day? Is this -the usual time or what? - -Mr. FAIN. No; I was just thinking about the mail time. You get a -communication out, for instance, if I mailed this report it would get -there the next day, and they would review it and then they would mail -it out and I would get it the third day. - -Representative FORD. Just the communication time. - -Mr. FAIN. That is right; that is right. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you get any comment back at all on this report from -headquarters? - -Mr. FAIN. No; I did not. - -Mr. STERN. Would you elaborate, Mr. Fain, about your conclusions on -this case and your evaluation of Oswald the man as of the time of your -second interview. What led you to your recommendation? - -Mr. FAIN. An evaluation as to what? - -Mr. STERN. From the viewpoint of the investigation you were conducting. -You told us how you felt about him on the first interview, and you felt -a further interview would be necessary. - -Mr. FAIN. Well, I felt in the second interview he was more relaxed, and -I felt he answered the questions more readily and with less evasion. - -However, he still didn't seem to want to go into the reasons why -he went over there in the first place, and why he wouldn't do it. -Evidently he had his own reasons for giving those answers. I don't know -whether he just wanted to be--maybe he was just inherently insolent, -and that is just typical of his personality is all I could figure out. - -Mr. STERN. Will you tell us again the purpose of your investigation, -what you were after. - -Mr. FAIN. The purpose of this investigation was to determine whether -or not he had been contacted by the Soviet intelligence agencies, -whether he had been given an assignment or not, whether they had made -any deal with him, and whether, as a demand, for permitting his wife -to accompany him--you see, for a long time, they told him he couldn't -take her apparently, and there was quite a period that he was waiting -to get her, and he refused to come back to the United States unless -his wife came back with him. We wanted to find out whether or not the -Soviets had demanded anything of him in return for letting her come on -over. - -Mr. STERN. As to that, had you formed a conclusion, after the second -interview? - -Mr. FAIN. As to--on that point? - -Mr. STERN. Yes. - -Mr. FAIN. Well he answered it and said, "No." He played it down all the -way through. In other words, that was the main purpose we were talking -to him, was to try to ascertain that point. He downgraded it all the -way through, and belittled himself. He said, "I was not that important." - -Mr. STERN. Was your recommendation that this case be closed, a -recommendation that indicates that you had reached a conclusion on the -question of your investigation? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; even though he was arrogant and cold, from his -answers, I couldn't see any potential for danger or violence at that -point. - -Mr. DULLES. Did Special Agent Arnold J. Brown concur in your decision -with regard to marking the case "C," closed? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; I remarked to him we were just going to close it, -and he saw the finished report and initialed the report. - -Mr. DULLES. He saw that conclusion and concurred in it? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. In terms of your FBI procedures, what is the difference -between marking a case closed or marking it pending? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, if it is a pending case, there is additional work to be -done on it. - -Mr. STERN. Specific additional work? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; specific leads to be done on the case. - -Mr. STERN. And closed means that there are no such specific leads, is -that right? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; that is right; it is closed. - -Mr. STERN. But does that mean that the case is in dead storage -somewhere? - -Mr. FAIN. Not forever; no. If there is any reason for reopening it, it -could be reopened the next day if necessary or the next 3 days or any -time. But this assignment had been completed. He had been interviewed. -That was the purpose of this contact, to interview him, and set forth -the results of re-interview, and that was all that was to be done. - -Mr. STERN. Are cases frequently reopened? - -Mr. FAIN. Cases are reopened constantly. If there is any reason for -reopening it, it certainly would be reopened. - -Mr. STERN. Is it fair to say then that in this kind of situation, -"closed" is really a shorthand for "no further work to be done at this -time"? - -Mr. FAIN. Correct, correct. - -Mr. DULLES. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. McCLOY. What is the date of this last report here? - -Mr. FAIN. The date of this was August 30, 1962. - -Mr. McCLOY. August 30, 1962. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Fain, do you recall discussing Lee Harvey Oswald with -his brother Robert Oswald about this time? - -Mr. FAIN. Discussing his brother with him? - -Mr. STERN. Did you ever talk to Robert Oswald about any of your -conclusions regarding Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. FAIN. Certainly not. I contacted him on August 14, but that was for -the purpose of locating his brother for interview. - -Mr. STERN. Is it possible that you might have said to him at some -point, "I have interviewed your brother and I don't think he presents a -problem," or "I do"? I don't suppose you would say that. - -Mr. FAIN. Positively not. I never made that statement to him at any -time. - -Mr. STERN. This would be contrary to your operations? - -Mr. FAIN. That would call for a conclusion, and we wouldn't discuss a -matter like that with anyone, especially a relative. - -Mr. STERN. With any unofficial person? - -Mr. FAIN. Official--that is right. Of course with my supervisor and -some official who is entitled to it, but I certainly did not talk to -Robert Oswald about anything like that. - -Mr. STERN. Do you have any indication from your interviews with Lee -Harvey Oswald or from anything else you knew about him, from your -investigation, that he was dangerous or potentially violent? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir; no, sir; if there had been any indication that he -was potentially dangerous or violent or had a potential for violence, -we certainly wouldn't have closed it. - -Mr. McCLOY. You felt he constituted no security risk to the United -States? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, we couldn't prove that he was a member of the Communist -Party in Fort Worth; had no report that he was a member of the party. - -Mr. McCLOY. Quite apart from the party, from party membership, was it -your conclusion that he was--he did not constitute a security risk? - -Mr. FAIN. I couldn't see any potential for violence. - -Mr. McCLOY. I am not talking about potential for violence. I am -talking about security risk. You know what I mean by that. You are an -experienced security officer. - -Mr. FAIN. Well, I am suspicious of any Communist, obviously, and I -think any Communist is a threat because I think they are atheistic, -materialistic; I don't think they know what the truth is, and from that -standpoint I would think he is--but he wasn't, we couldn't say. The -checks we made were to the effect that he was not a Communist, was not -a member of the Communist Party. - -Mr. McCLOY. Was not a member of the Communist Party. - -Mr. FAIN. But he went to Russia. Of course, we couldn't get him to tell -us why he went. We tried on two occasions. He said it was personal -with him. He wanted to go over there the first time, and in that first -interview he said, "I don't care to relive the past." - -Mr. McCLOY. I understand that. But if you had doubts about his -security, about his loyalty to the United States, or put it the other -way, or if you think he might have been a security risk to the United -States, should you have closed this case? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; we would have closed it because there was no reason -to keep it open. We had the information. We reinterviewed him, no -potential for violence appearing. - -Mr. McCLOY. That isn't the test, is it, whether he can be capable of -intrigue or he can be capable of espionage without violence. He could -be a security risk without violence, couldn't he? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, that might be, of course. Of course--if we knew then -what did happen, was going to happen, we certainly wouldn't---- - -Mr. McCLOY. I am not talking about hindsight. I am talking about as -of that time whether in your judgment this man was no longer, in your -judgment, to be considered as a security risk to the United States. I -am not trying to place any blame or criticism here. I am just trying to -get the state of your mind as of the date of that report, whether that -included your belief that he was not a security risk. - -Mr. FAIN. Well, we like to let our reports stand for themselves, in -other words on the situation, the answers given. In answer to your -question, I would have been rather satisfied if he would have told me -why he went over there and if he weren't so evasive. - -Mr. McCLOY. You got an impression he was evasive and he was not telling -you the truth? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, he was inclined to be haughty and arrogant, and even -though he was insolent, and that could have been, of course, a part of -his personality makeup, that type of individual. - -Mr. McCLOY. Let me ask you this: If you had felt in spite of his -answers that he was a security risk, would it have been incumbent upon -you to report to your superiors that he was, and that you thought he -ought to be continued under surveillance? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; if he would have met the qualifications we -considered that he had been a security risk, and had a potential for -any violence or dangerousness, why, we certainly would have stayed on -him. - -Mr. DULLES. And you would not have marked the report as closed, the -case as closed. - -Mr. FAIN. Well, I closed it because my investigation was completed. -The assignment was to interview him and the case at the end of the -interview with the information we obtained the case was closed. The man -had found a job, he was working, he was living in this duplex with his -wife, and he was not a member of the Communist Party. Of course, it -was true he had been to Russia. He denied any contacts with a Soviet -intelligence agent. He denied that he had any contacts. We considered -all the facts and circumstances and closed the case, and that is what I -did. - -Mr. McCLOY. If you had not come to that, would you have put in another -lead for another interview? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Would it have been incumbent upon you to recommend to your -superiors that he be continued under surveillance? - -Mr. FAIN. I could have recommended that he be reinterviewed but I -frankly didn't see any point in doing that. - -Mr. McCLOY. I understand that. But assuming you did find some -derogatory information, or some facts that made you fear that he was -a security risk beyond a recommendation for further interviews, what -would be your province to do? Would it be your province to recommend -surveillance? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; if there had been some facts there to indicate that -he was---- - -Mr. McCLOY. A potential danger? - -Mr. FAIN. A potential danger to the security of the United States, and -for instance if we had found that he was a member of the Communist -Party and meeting with them, made some contact with them, I certainly -would have stayed right on it. - -Mr. McCLOY. You would have recommended that he be kept under -surveillance then? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. That is all I am getting at. - -Representative FORD. Are you through, John? - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes. - -Representative FORD. On the top page of Commission Exhibit 824 it says, -and I quote, "Oswald and wife unknown to confidential informant." Did -you make that check? - -Mr. FAIN. I did. I checked with the confidential security informants -that we had there, and they said this man was not known to be a member -of the party, and the party had not discussed him for membership -purposes or anything like that. - -Representative FORD. Do you have in this area, or did you have at that -time in this area reliable confidential informants? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; yes, sir. Excellent informants. - -Representative FORD. During your experience in Fort Worth or otherwise, -did you ever have a case similar to the Oswald case, a defector who had -returned to the United States? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. This was your only one? - -Mr. FAIN. I had read in the newspapers about them occurring in various -areas in the United States but this was the first one I had handled. - -Representative FORD. This was the only one of a similar nature that you -handled? - -Mr. FAIN. I believe there were some cases back there too. We did handle -one or two of those where the man in the service had made some kind of -a remark, and we had interviewed him when he returned. I remember two -or three of those cases when he returned to this country. - -We contacted him to ascertain what his employment was, what his status -was, what his present residence was, what his present attitude was, -and whether or not he would report to us if he were contacted under -auspicious circumstances abroad or otherwise. We worked on several of -those, that type of case. - -Representative FORD. Your contacts with these confidential informants, -were they prior to or subsequent to this interview with Oswald? - -Mr. FAIN. This was subsequent. This was the day following. I had also -previously interviewed them. - -Representative FORD. I think there was a somewhat similar statement in -one of your other reports. - -Mr. FAIN. I believe in the other report, yes, sir. - -(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room) - -Mr. DULLES. Do you recall any other instances where you have marked a -case closed where headquarters has come back and suggested that it not -be closed and that further investigation be made? - -Mr. FAIN. Right now, I can't specifically recall any instances, but it -has been done, and if the supervisor felt additional work should be -done we would have no hesitancy in doing it. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Fain, your recommendation about closing a case is -checked by how many supervisors that you know? - -Mr. FAIN. One on the security desk there before it goes on here to the -seat of Government. - -Mr. STERN. This is one on the security desk in Dallas? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Then what happens? - -Mr. FAIN. Then the report goes on into Washington here, to the FBI. - -Mr. STERN. As far as you know is it checked again here? - -Mr. FAIN. Oh, yes. - -Mr. STERN. And by whom or by what kind of official? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, they have a desk up here that has that function, too, -you see. I don't know just, Mr. Belmont can probably answer that better -than I can because I am not familiar at all with the workings of it up -here. But I know they are rigidly checked and rechecked. - -Mr. STERN. Now, at the time you filed this report, in view of the fact -that you didn't see, as you testified, any further work to be done at -this time---- - -Mr. FAIN. That is right. - -Mr. STERN. Could you have put the case in any other status besides -"Closed"? Is there any other administrative procedure that might have -been available to you under the circumstances where you had nothing -further, no further work to recommend at the time? - -Mr. FAIN. Any other status? I could have put it, of course, in a -pending status and set out some leads. - -Mr. STERN. No, no; assuming you didn't see any further work to be done, -any further leads at that time, under your administrative practices? - -Mr. FAIN. No; if the work has been completed, we put the recommendation -that it be closed and as I say, of course, that is no ironbound thing, -to keep it from being reopened. It can be reopened any time, any of -these security cases, the very next day, if necessary or the next 5 -days or the next month, anything comes in on it or we get any specific -reason for reopening it, it certainly is reopened. - -Representative FORD. A few minutes ago I asked you a question about -checking with confidential informants. Did this check involve only -confidential informants in Fort Worth as far as the Communist Party was -concerned, or would it have a broader check? - -Mr. FAIN. These were the confidential informants available to me in -Fort Worth only. - -Representative FORD. Would there be a different set of informants in -Dallas? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes; they had informants, I suppose, one or two from the area -there, but we certainly had two when I considered to be excellent right -in Fort Worth and I am sure they had good access. - -Representative FORD. But would such a check of informants at Fort Worth -necessarily mean there couldn't have been some relationship Oswald had -with the Communist Party in Dallas, for example? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, these in Fort Worth are familiar with some of the -activity in Dallas, too. - -Representative FORD. There would be a connection between your -informants in Fort Worth---- - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. And those that might exist in Dallas? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. I contacted these on several occasions, on two -occasions that I remember, and, I felt, if this man was a member of the -Communist Party they would know about it. - -Representative FORD. When one of the Secret Service agents went down -to Dallas prior to the assassination in his preparation for the visit -of the President he checked through informants in certain right-wing -elements in Dallas to see whether or not there was to be any violence -at the time of the President's visit. There have been allegations to -the effect that Oswald was in some way connected with such alleged -right-wing organizations. Did you have any knowledge of that? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir; no, sir. - -Representative FORD. Did you have any reason to check it? - -Mr. FAIN. No; all the information that I had and as these reports will -reflect, he was along the lines of Marxist, Communist, if anything, and -I don't think you will find any indication that he was on the other. - -Representative FORD. You had no information that he was in any way -whatsoever connected with the alleged right-wing organizations? - -Mr. FAIN. That is right. That is right, I did not. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did any Secret Service people get in contact with you prior -to the visit of the President, or did you get in contact with them? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir. You see, I retired from the FBI October 29 of 1962. -The President was down there November 22, of 1963. - -Mr. McCLOY. I forgot. - -Mr. DULLES. That was how long, I didn't catch the date, how long before -the assassination attempt? - -Mr. FAIN. I retired October 29 of 1962, and the assassination---- - -Mr. DULLES. The year before, about? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. A little over a year. - -Mr. FAIN. The assassination occurred in November of 1963, isn't that -correct? - -Representative FORD. Are you still living in the Dallas-Fort Worth area? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir; I am at Houston. I moved to Houston and retired on -the 28th and went to Houston on November 1 of 1962. - -Representative FORD. What is your present occupation? - -Mr. FAIN. I am office manager and in charge of accounts receivable for -my brother who is an orthopedic surgeon in Houston. - -Representative FORD. You no longer have any connection with the -Government? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir; I do not. The Bureau has been mighty good to me. I -have enjoyed my tenure of service. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Fain, was there any procedure that you went through upon -your retirement in turning over cases, cases you had worked on whether -they were in closed status or pending cases? Did you discuss the cases -with an agent who was taking them over? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Was a closed case discussed in that fashion? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, in general, in other words---- - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall discussing the Oswald case with another agent? - -Mr. FAIN. Not specifically, no; I do not. - -Mr. STERN. But you do think you would have in connection with the -procedures you followed upon your retirement? - -Mr. FAIN. Maybe not. We might not, since this case was closed, I doubt -very much that we discussed it. - -Mr. STERN. You have no recollection of it? - -Mr. FAIN. At least I have no recollection of having discussed it with -him. - -Mr. STERN. May we have this report, Mr. Chairman, which has been marked -for identification 824, admitted? - -Representative FORD. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to, previously marked as Commission Exhibit No. -824 for identification, was received in evidence.) - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Fain, I show you a document, a letter from Director -Hoover with attachments, which has been marked for identification -Commission No. 825. Would you turn to the last two pages and can you -tell us what the last two pages constitute? - -Mr. FAIN. The last two pages constitute an affidavit which I gave to -the Houston office of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. - -Mr. STERN. Did you make it at the Houston office? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. What was the occasion of your making this affidavit? - -Mr. FAIN. I was contacted by Mr. Ed Dalrymple, special agent of the -FBI, and he explained to me that he would like to talk to me about -this matter. He said he had had an inquiry concerning whether or not -I had ever paid this man, Lee Oswald, any money for any information -and he asked me if I would be willing to give an affidavit and I said -I certainly would be glad to. I came down to the office and gave this -affidavit to him on January 29, 1964. - -Mr. STERN. Is there anything you would like to add to this affidavit or -any correction you would like to make in it at this time? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. STERN. When you talk about an informant, does that term mean to you -only someone who receives money for information? - -Mr. FAIN. No, they have an informant that would furnish information -without compensation. Informant in the generally accepted term is -anyone who would furnish information to the FBI. - -Mr. STERN. When you say no effort was made to recruit Lee Harvey -Oswald's services in any capacity on behalf of the FBI or any other -Government agency, you mean for compensation or otherwise? - -Mr. FAIN. Oh, yes. That was my understanding for the reason of this -affidavit was whether or not I had ever paid him or offered to pay -him any money, remuneration or compensation for any information and -certainly there had been no effort to recruit him along that line at -all and no payment had ever been made to him. - -Mr. STERN. Would you consider then the same question but without the -element of compensation: Had you ever made any effort to recruit his -services without compensation? - -Mr. FAIN. Well, we, of course, interviewed him a couple of times and -asked him for information and told him that if he were ever contacted -by any Soviet individuals or under any suspicious circumstances to be -sure and let us know about it. - -Mr. STERN. Did you ever ask him to do anything more than that for you? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did you ever ask him to try to become a member of any group -for you? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir; no, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he agree to supply the information? - -Mr. FAIN. He promised to; yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. In case he should be approached? - -Mr. FAIN. He said he would cooperate with us. - -Mr. STERN. The last paragraph of your affidavit describes his attitude -as arrogant and hostile. Did you say that on the basis of both -interviews with him? - -Mr. FAIN. Predominantly as a result of the first, and frankly as I said -a while ago, he was and continued to be evasive as to his reason for -ever having gone over there, and I consider that uncooperative. - -Mr. STERN. But did you feel he was arrogant and hostile at the time of -the second interview? - -Mr. FAIN. Not so much as he was the first. I would say he was more so, -more arrogant and hostile at the first interview. - -Mr. STERN. If there are no other questions in this area, I have just -one other point I would like to cover with Mr. Fain, and that is what -were your instructions, Mr. Fain, as a special agent of the FBI, with -regard to referring to the Secret Service information bearing upon -the protection of the President, not in this case but as a general -proposition? - -Mr. FAIN. As a general proposition, if there was any information -coming to our attention, express or implied, or any implication that -the President might be in danger or anyone had made a threat of that -character, we would always refer it to the Secret Service, that was -made clear to us from the very beginning of my service. - -Mr. STERN. In your 20 years of service as a special agent did you ever -have any occasion to refer information to the Secret Service? - -Mr. FAIN. I don't remember any specific instances but I am sure there -have been a few occasions where I have turned over some information -like that and I have run several investigations out as to who this -individual was and as to what he was, and so forth. - -But any indication of, a threat or otherwise I would have contacted -my supervisor--it happened at Fort Worth at that time we didn't have -a representative of Secret Service, it was covered out of Dallas, but -if there had been anything like that, any indication of potential for -violence or any threats I would have called my Dallas office and they -would have in turn advised the Secret Service. - -Mr. STERN. Did you see any reason to refer Lee Harvey Oswald to the -Secret Service? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir; no, sir. I didn't see any potential for violence at -that time; no, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did he ever mention the President or the Presidency or---- - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Or any elected official to you? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Governor Connally? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Would the memoranda of these conversations be put in a file -that was in any way special as to of doubtful character or suspicious -character so that it might be referred to later under that category? - -Mr. FAIN. They constantly review these, as I understand it, these -matters. - -Mr. DULLES. Who is "they"? - -Mr. FAIN. The supervisory desk over there constantly is going over -these matters, and if there is any--they check the files to see if -anything has come in on it that would look like it ought to be reopened. - -Mr. DULLES. But there was no mark on this file to indicate that this -was a case that might have some pending interest from the point of view -of security? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir; not that I am aware of. - -Mr. STERN. Is there anything you would like to add to anything you have -told the Commission this morning, Mr. Fain? - -Mr. FAIN. I believe not. I don't recall anything additionally. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you card all these files so that--and was there a card -in your files under the name of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. FAIN. Not in my files, but when it goes to Dallas they index all -those. - -Mr. DULLES. They do that in Dallas? - -Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; and the seat of Government. - -Mr. DULLES. And there was a card on Lee Harvey Oswald, a special card, -in addition to a file in the office? - -Mr. FAIN. I am sure there was, there might have been an index. - -Mr. DULLES. But you didn't know that yourself? - -Mr. FAIN. No, sir; but we didn't maintain one in Dallas--in Fort Worth. - -Mr. STERN. That is all. - -The CHAIRMAN (presiding). Well, Mr. Fain, thank you very much, sir, for -your courtesy and your help to us. We appreciate it. Sorry to disturb -you in your retirement. - -(At this point Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) - -(At this point Representative Ford left the hearing room.) - - -TESTIMONY OF JOHN LESTER QUIGLEY - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Quigley, this session of the Commission is for -the purpose of hearing the testimony of certain members of the FBI -concerning interviews they had with Lee Oswald, and we understand that -you had one with him. - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir; I did. - -The CHAIRMAN. And we want to have you discuss that with us. Would you -please rise and raise your right hand and be sworn. Do you solemnly -swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall -be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I do, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Be seated, please. Mr. Stern will conduct the examination. - -Mr. STERN. Would you state your full name for the record, Mr. Quigley? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. John Lester Quigley. - -Mr. STERN. Your address? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No. 4, Cromwell Place, New Orleans, La. - -Mr. STERN. Have you a law degree, Mr. Quigley? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I do, sir. - -Mr. STERN. From what institution? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Columbus University, Washington. - -Mr. STERN. Are you a member of the bar? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No; I am not, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Upon receiving your law degree, did you join the FBI? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I was in the FBI at the time I was going to law school. - -Mr. STERN. And when did you join the FBI? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. July 7, 1936. - -Mr. STERN. And you have been a member of the FBI since then? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. That is correct. - -Mr. STERN. To the present time. What was your assignment in 1963? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. General assignment, investigative assignment. - -Mr. STERN. In what office? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. New Orleans division, at New Orleans, La. - -Mr. STERN. How long had you been in the New Orleans office? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Since February of 1959. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Quigley, I show you a document which has been marked -Commission No. 826 for identification. Can you identify this document -for us, please? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes; I can identify it. This is the October 31, 1963, -investigative report of Special Agent Milton R. Kaack, who was at that -time assigned to the New Orleans division, with regard to Lee Harvey -Oswald. - -Mr. STERN. Are you responsible for any portion of this report, Mr. -Quigley? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes; I am, sir. - -Mr. STERN. What portion? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I direct your attention to page 6 of this report, pages 6 -through 10, which reflect the result of an interview which I had with -Lee Harvey Oswald on August 10, 1963, at New Orleans, La. - -Mr. STERN. Are you responsible for any other portion of the report, Mr. -Quigley? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I am confident I am not but may I just look at it for a -moment. No, sir; I am not. - -Mr. STERN. Can you identify the entire report from your official duties? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes. I have seen this, a copy of this report, in our files -at New Orleans. - -Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed this report recently in preparation for -your testimony before the Commission? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes; I have. - -Mr. STERN. Turning now to page 6 of the report, can you tell us from -this memorandum when you interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes; I interviewed him at the first district station, New -Orleans Police Department, on August 10, 1963. - -Mr. STERN. How did you come to interview Mr. Oswald? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Lt. Francis L. Martello, platoon commander at the first -district, New Orleans Police Station, called our office and advised -that he wished an agent to stop by there since there was a prisoner who -desired to speak with an agent. - -As a result of this telephone call, I proceeded to the first district. - -Mr. STERN. Did you receive the telephone call? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. DULLES. By agent, did he mean agent of the FBI? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir; yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. You were assigned by someone in your office to take this -assignment? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. That is right. This was on a Saturday, which we operate on -a skeleton staff. We do not have a full staff on a Saturday. - -Mr. STERN. Were you accompanied by any other agent of the FBI in making -this interview? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I was not. - -Mr. STERN. Is that normal, under your procedures? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I would say yes. Agents operate independently unless there -is a specific reason for more than one agent to be present. - -Mr. STERN. As far as you knew here there was no such reason? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. There was no reason. - -Mr. STERN. Did you know whom you were going to interview, by name? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I did not, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Just an individual who was---- - -Mr. QUIGLEY. An individual, that is correct. - -Mr. STERN. Had you any knowledge of an organization called Fair Play -for Cuba Committee's activities in New Orleans before this interview? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I had knowledge that there was such an organization in -existence in the United States. I had no knowledge of any activities of -such an organization in the city of New Orleans, La. - -Mr. STERN. Did you know of its existence in the United States as part -of your official work? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Overall knowledge of Bureau operations; yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Were you working on any particular investigation involving -this Committee at the time? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir; I was not. - -Mr. STERN. Will you tell us what occurred first when you came to the -police station? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. At the time I arrived at the police station, Lieutenant -Martello directed me to the commanding officer's office, where there -was laid out on the table a number of different pamphlets, throwaways, -relating to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, which he advised me had -been removed by the New Orleans Police Department from Oswald the -previous day, August 9, at the time of his arrest, for disturbing the -peace on Canal Street. - -I reviewed, generally looked over, the material to see what it was. I -was not familiar with any of this material. While I was doing this, he -had not at this point identified who the individual was other than the -person had been arrested the previous day; while I was looking over the -material, the jailer brought in an individual who was then introduced -to me by Lieutenant Martello as Harvey Lee Oswald. I then identified -myself by credentials to Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. STERN. You said Harvey Lee Oswald. - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I beg your pardon. - -Mr. STERN. You meant Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes; Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. STERN. Did his name mean anything to you at that time? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir; it did not. - -Mr. STERN. In these documents that you were given to look at by the -New Orleans Police was there a handwritten list of names, addresses, -telephone numbers--anything of that sort. - -Mr, QUIGLEY. No, sir; there was not. - -Mr. STERN. Have you subsequently learned of such a list in connection -with your duties? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes; I have. - -Mr. STERN. Have you been told why that list wasn't furnished to you at -the time of your interview? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes; I have. On November 29, 1963, I went to the first -district station in New Orleans Police Department to confer with -Lieutenant Martello. At this time he informed me that on November 23, -1963, a representative of the Secret Service had contacted him about -3 o'clock in the morning, told him that he was conducting an official -investigation with regard to the assassination of the President, and -desired to talk to him. - -Arrangements were made the following or that same day, to meet at the -first district station. At approximately 3 o'clock the Secret Service -representative met there. At this time, Lieutenant Martello went to -his files, removed from the files the evidence that had been taken -from Oswald on August 9, 1963. In going through these documents, he -noted this piece of paper that had what appeared to him to be foreign -writing, he felt that it probably was Russian but he did not know. He -turned this over to the Secret Service. - -He related to me that at the time he had questioned Oswald on August -10, 1963, prior to the time that he had called the FBI office, that he -had gone through items in Oswald's wallet, which is a normal procedure -for the police to do, for background identification, and so forth, -and among the items in his wallet was this piece of paper, and in -the discussion that pursued, apparently this particular document and -a small photograph of Oswald inadvertently became involved with the -evidence that was being handled in the case at the time, and the file -was then put away, and it was not gone back into, as I understand it, -until this interview of the 23d, when he discovered this document. - -Mr. DULLES. And the photograph? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. In addition to the writing was among these other papers? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did you make notes of your interview? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes; I did, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Do you practice shorthand or any speedwriting? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. STERN. How soon after the interview did you record the interview -formally? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Five days. - -Mr. STERN. Did you dictate or draft it yourself? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I dictated from my notes. - -Mr. STERN. Did you retain the notes? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. STERN. Is it your usual practice to destroy notes once you have -dictated a memorandum? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. It is the usual practice to destroy your notes after the -completed work has been returned to you for proofing to make certain -that the information is accurate, then you do destroy them. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Quigley, I show you a one-page document marked for -identification with the number 827. Can you identify that document? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes; I can identify this document. - -Mr. STERN. What is it, please? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. This is a copy of a document that was turned over to me -by Lt. Francis L. Martello of the New Orleans Police Department, on -November 29, 1963. He informed me that at the time he interviewed -Oswald on August 10, 1963, Oswald had on his person a piece of paper -which was removed from his wallet which contained some foreign writing -as well as some English, that the piece of paper inadvertently became -involved in the evidence in the case with reference to the disturbing -of the peace. And subsequently on November 29, 1963, he found this -original document that had been taken from Oswald among the items of -evidence at the first district police station. He then turned the -original of this document over to Secret Service representative, Mr. -Adrian Vial, who was assigned to the Secret Service office at New -Orleans. - -Prior to turning the original document over to Mr. Vial, Lieutenant -Martello made a copy in his own handwriting of the document that -was turned over to Mr. Vial. This is the copy of the document that -Lieutenant Martello made and which was turned over to me on November -29, 1963. - -Mr. STERN. And you have just supplied that document to the Commission? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I have. - -Mr. STERN. You mentioned that Lieutenant Martello said that there was -a photograph among these papers of Lee Harvey Oswald. Did you see the -photograph? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No; I did not. - -Mr. STERN. Do you know what he did--did he tell you what he had done -with the photograph? - -Mr QUIGLEY. He did not, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did he tell you anything about the photograph, tell you what -it was a photograph of? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. He remarked in his report that it appeared to be a -passport photograph. - -Mr. STERN. Of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. STERN. Turning now to the first page of your report, Mr. Quigley, -in the third paragraph you show that you were told that Mrs. Oswald's -maiden name was Prossa. From your practice, would you have taken that -name down, asked the person being interviewed to spell it for you? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I certainly would have. - -Mr. STERN. If you were relying on your ear, would you indicate that? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I would never take a name phonetically. - -Mr. STERN. So you believe---- - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I would request an accurate spelling. - -Mr. STERN. You believe that he spelled the name to you? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I am positive he did, sir. - -Mr. STERN. This way. Have you reviewed this memorandum of your -interview? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes; I have, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Is there anything you would like to add to it now---- - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Any detail that you omitted that you now think of? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Are you quite sure he said to you that about 4 months ago -he and his wife Marina Oswald, named Prossa, whom he met and married in -Fort Worth, moved to New Orleans? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Well, these are not his direct words, sir. This is the -substance of what he told me; yes. This is accurate. This is my own -phraseology. - -Mr. DULLES. I understand. - -Mr. McCLOY. One other thing. I have to leave shortly to go to lunch, -but on page 7 of this report you described these membership cards. - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did he have the membership cards in his possession at that -time? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir; he did, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. You saw them? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir; I did, sir. I think the last you will notice, in -that last sentence he had in his possession both cards and exhibited -both of them. - -Mr. McCLOY. Right. One of them was, at least one of them, was signed A. -Hidell? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do we have those cards? - -Mr. STERN. I believe we do. I do not have them here. - -Mr. McCLOY. But it is important to have them because the name Hidell -was in the handwriting--but these are membership cards purporting to be -membership cards in the Fair Play for Cuba organization. - -Would you be able to identify these cards if you saw them, Mr. Quigley, -as the ones that were shown in Oswald's possession exhibited to you? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I don't believe I could truthfully say if you showed me a -card, these two cards now that those were the identical ones. - -From the description and the data that I have recorded I could say they -were similar. - -Mr. McCLOY. All right. - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I don't just feel I could identify them. Bear this in -mind, sir; this material was evidence as far as the New Orleans Police -Department was concerned at the time, we couldn't take this material. - -Mr. McCLOY. I understand. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you say that some of it was turned over to the Secret -Service? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir; not to my knowledge. - -Mr. DULLES. Not this material? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Not to my knowledge, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did Oswald answer all the questions you put to him in the -course of your interview? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I am sorry. - -Mr. STERN. Did Oswald answer all the questions you put to him in the -course of your interview? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No; he did not answer all of them. - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall the nature of the questions he didn't want to -answer or he evaded? - -(At this point Mr. McCloy left the hearing room.) - -Mr. QUIGLEY. When I began asking him specific details with respect to -his activities in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans as -to where meetings were held, who was involved, what occurred, he was -reticent to furnish information, reluctant and actually as far as I was -concerned, was completely evasive on them. - -Mr. STERN. Did he tell you why he had requested the interview? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No; he did not, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did you form any impression as to why he had requested the -interview? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Well, he was in police custody at the time, involved in a -disturbing of the peace charge, was becoming involved in a fight with -three Cubans on the street in the distribution of Fair Play for Cuba -literature. I felt that he was probably making a self-serving statement -in attempting to explain to me why he was distributing this literature, -and for no other reason, and when I got to questioning him further then -he felt that his purpose had been served and he wouldn't say anything -further. - -Mr. STERN. Why do you think it might have been important for him to -explain to you what he was doing---- - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Well---- - -Mr. STERN. Or to an FBI agent? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Well, he is in custody--this I cannot answer you. You -ask me what I thought, this is what my feeling was on the matter. His -actual motive, I really wouldn't have any idea. - -Mr. STERN. Is there any possibility that he was trying to give the New -Orleans police the idea that he was working for or with the FBI? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Not to my knowledge, sir; no. - -Mr. STERN. None of his conduct went in that direction? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No; he certainly, to my knowledge, never advised the New -Orleans police of this. As a matter of fact, he, during the course of -the interview with Lieutenant Martello, made a flat statement that he -would like to talk to an FBI agent, which is not an unusual situation. -Frequently persons who are in custody of local authorities would like -to talk to the FBI. - -The CHAIRMAN. Is that so? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. That is true, sir. Many times people don't really -understand what the FBI jurisdiction is. They feel we handle a -multitude of things which we don't. We are happy to talk with them, we -record the information, and if we can be of assistance, we are, and if -we cannot be of assistance we tell them we cannot and we explain to -them why we can't be of assistance. - -The CHAIRMAN. Did he ask you to be of any assistance to him? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Quigley, did you believe he was telling you the truth in -all respects? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No; I did not, sir. - -Mr. STERN. In what respect did you think he was not telling the truth? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Well, as I stated before, when--I accepted basic -information that he furnished to me regarding background, about what -occurred at the time of his arrest. Then when I began questioning him -as to who A. J. Hidell was, who the members of the Fair Play for Cuba -Committee were in New Orleans, where they held their meetings, what -literature he read, which he claimed he had been receiving from the -Fair Play for Cuba Committee, he was noncommittal or wouldn't discuss -it. - -At one point of the interview he told me that he had held one of the -Fair Play for Cuba Committee meetings at his home. I asked him, "Well, -how did you get in touch with the other people?" "Well, I don't care to -discuss that." "Who were the persons at the meeting?" "I don't know." -"Did you know any names at all?" "Yes. They were introduced to me by -first names only." "What were their first names?" "I cannot remember." -So it was apparent to me that he was not certainly going to furnish -anything that he had made his statement, why I did not know. But when I -pressed him for details he declined to furnish anything. - -Another one, for example, I asked him about A. J. Hidell, obviously you -can see why I would have been interested in this. "Well, Mr. Hidell had -a telephone." "What was Mr. Hidell's telephone number?" "Mr. Hidell's -telephone has been disconnected." "What was the number?" "I can't -remember." This was the end of it, so this is the basis for my thinking. - -Mr. STERN. Yes. - -Mr. QUIGLEY. One more thing I would like to add that might help clarify -it, as to why I felt it was a self-serving statement is that he told me -that he was distributing these throwaways for the Fair Play for Cuba -Committee because of a patriotic duty, as a patriotic American citizen. -This I felt was certainly, in his opinion, a self-serving statement. - -Mr. STERN. Did he elaborate on that? Did he tell you in what respect -he thought he was performing a patriotic duty by distributing this -pamphlet? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No; not in so many words, but he did explain that he -felt that the goal and theme of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was -that it was his patriotic duty to bring to the attention of as many -people as he could, the fact that the United States should not attack -Cuba at the time or interfere into their political affairs, and that -by spreading what he considered the philosophy of the Fair Play for -Cuba Committee, that the American people would better understand the -internal conditions there, and the American people should be given an -opportunity to go to Cuba and let them make their own mind up as to -what the situation was as of that time rather than just merely reading -it in the newspaper. - -Senator COOPER. I have a question I would like to ask. You have just -stated that Oswald told you something about his own purposes and also -the objectives of this Fair Play for Cuba Committee. Did he make any -comment on the policy of the United States toward Cuba? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir; he did not. - -Senator COOPER. Did he say---- - -Mr. QUIGLEY. To my recollection. - -Senator COOPER. Did he say anything affirmatively opposing or stating -what the policy of the United States was and to be opposed to it? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I have no recollection of that, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Did he mention any official of the United States as -opposing his policy? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir; he did not. - -Senator COOPER. The President of the United States, President Kennedy? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir; everything that he told me I recorded in my -notes, so everything that I have here in this document is what he told -me. Now bear this in mind when it was apparent to me that he was not -giving me information that, I didn't continue for hours and hours--I -did not know who this individual was at the time, so I felt that I -had adequate background for the time being. If we wished to pursue it -further, at least we had a basis to talk to him. - -Mr. STERN. Your report does not indicate, Mr. Quigley, specifically -that you believed some of the information he told you was not true? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. That is correct. - -Mr. STERN. Tell us why that is. - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Well, I feel that a person reviewing the document can draw -their own conclusions that the information that he has furnished is not -complete, is inaccurate, that he is obviously withholding information, -plus the fact that, as a matter of policy, we do not express -conclusions or personal opinions. We are a factfinding agency. We allow -the facts to speak for themselves. - -Mr. STERN. Would you look at page 10 of the report, the biographical -data on Lee Harvey Oswald. At "place of birth" you have entered "New -Orleans, Louisiana," but then put in parentheses, "at the time of -arrest Oswald claimed he was from Cuba." - -Mr. QUIGLEY. That is correct. - -Mr. STERN. This is not in your report as such, there is no statement, -no recorded note of anything he told you about where he was born. How -did that come up and what did he say? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Following my interview with Oswald, I, of course, spoke -with Lieutenant Martello, and I made an observation that this Oswald -was a New Orleans boy. I couldn't remember that yesterday, that he was -a New Orleans boy, and Lieutenant Martello said, "Well, that isn't -what he told the officers at the time of arrest. He said he was born -in Cuba," and this is why I recorded this. We frequently have persons -who are arrested in various places in the county, and furnish record -different dates, places of birth, and we always record any variations -of what we feel is the truth, so our record will be complete on such a -situation. - -Mr. STERN. Did Lieutenant Martello tell you anything else at the time -you learned this? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir; we didn't discuss it further. - -Mr. STERN. What was Lee Harvey Oswald's demeanor during the interview, -his attitude, his cooperativeness? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. He was receptive at the time I was questioning him about -his general background, such as employment, "where have you been, -what have you done," he told me he was unemployed at the time. He had -previously worked for William Riley Coffee Co. there in New Orleans -and he had been honorably discharged out of the service; that he had -moved to Fort Worth after he had gotten out of the service and married, -there were no problems involved here. But when I began questioning him -with regard to his activities in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, -then he became reticent, reluctant to furnish information, and in some -instances refused to furnish any information. - -Mr. STERN. Was he antagonistic, hostile? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. He was antagonistic to some extent, not overly so. He -certainly was not friendly. - -Mr. STERN. How long did the interview last, to the best you can recall? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. As best I can recall approximately an hour and a half. -This would include, of course, my reviewing of the documents with him, -and so on. - -Mr. STERN. Did you get any indication that he was a dangerous -individual or that he was, potentially, a violent individual? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Absolutely none at all. - -Mr. DULLES. What documents did you review with him? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. The Fair Play for Cuba Committee and the Corliss Lamont -report? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir; and the throwaways I went over those generally -with him. - -Mr. STERN. When you concluded your interview, then what did you do? -After awhile you talked to Lieutenant Martello. What did you do after -that? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I returned to my headquarters. - -Mr. STERN. Did you check your office---- - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I did check our files and I determined that we had an -investigation currently underway with regard to Oswald. I knew it -was assigned to an agent in the New Orleans office who sat right in -front of me. So I, on Monday morning, I discussed the fact that I had -interviewed Oswald at the first district jail on Saturday morning. - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall what you told him about the case other than -the details? Did you think Oswald was worthy of further investigation? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Well, sir, this was not my decision. I was merely -recording the results of an interview. I had nothing to do with the -actual investigation of this particular matter. - -Mr. STERN. Did you think he was behaving rationally or irrationally? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I would say he was acting rationally. You are speaking of -the time I interviewed him? - -Mr. STERN. Yes. - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Rationally. - -Mr. STERN. Were you concerned at all by the fact that he had requested -this interview, volunteered for it after his arrest in connection with -Fair Play for Cuba Committee activity and thereafter was misleading and -reluctant to talk to you about these activities? Didn't you think it -was strange? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir; I just thought this was a normal situation that -has occurred many times of persons in custody of the police wish to -talk to an FBI agent. We have them come to our headquarters in New -Orleans all the time to talk to us. So I didn't consider this unusual -at all. - -Mr. STERN. Would it be usual or had it occurred before that someone -would ask for an interview and then refuse to respond to your -questions. Didn't that seem strange? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Not necessarily; not necessarily. Frequently people will -have a problem and want to talk to an FBI agent and they want to tell -them what their problem is, but then when you start probing into it -then they don't want to talk to you. I think that is just human nature. -If you are probing too deep it gets a little touchy. - -Mr. DULLES. Who was in charge of this other investigation from the FBI -office with regard to Lee Harvey Oswald that you found out about later, -was this Special Agent Milton R. Kaack? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you make your report to him, did you? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Orally, yes; I discussed it with him. - -Mr. DULLES. When it was sent forward was it sent forward with these -documents we have in Exhibit 826 of which your report forms pages 6 -through 10? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir; this was prepared--that is correct--this was -then prepared and transcribed. But I had discussed the matter or -discussed the fact that I had interviewed him. - -Mr. DULLES. Was Special Agent Kaack your superior or just happened to -be in charge of this particular subject? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No; this investigative matter was assigned to him. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. He was the one then who forwarded the report to -Washington, this report we have, Exhibit 826? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. He is the one who prepared it; yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. And included verbatim your memorandum in this report? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Pages 7 to 10. - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Six to ten. - -Mr. STERN. Have you found subsequent to this interview, Mr. Quigley, -that you had any other contact with the case of Lee Harvey Oswald -before this interview? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes; I discovered at the time I checked our files that on -April 18, 1961, I had, as a result of a request of the Dallas office, -checked the office of naval intelligence records at the U. S. Naval -Station at Algiers. My purpose in checking that was merely to record -what information their files contained. - -Mr. STERN. And then you would send a report to that effect to the -Dallas office? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I sent a letter I believe in that particular case. - -Mr. STERN. Any other contact before this? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Any other contact with Lee Harvey Oswald or his case or -anything to do with his case? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. After your interview in the police station but before the -assassination? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Up to the time of the assassination? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. I note this case is marked "P," which I understand is -pending. - -Mr. QUIGLEY. That means---- - -Mr. DULLES. This was an open case in the New Orleans office? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. That is correct, sir. In other words, this indicates to us -administratively that there is further investigation to be conducted, -whether it be in New Orleans or some other place in the United States -or the world, as a matter of fact. - -Mr. DULLES. You mentioned Algiers a minute ago. What Algiers is this? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Algiers, La., sir, right across from New Orleans. - -Mr. DULLES. I don't know the geography well enough, I thought it wasn't -Algiers in Africa. - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, I think we might as well adjourn for lunch -now. What time would you like to return? Is 2 o'clock all right with -you, or 2:30? Which would you rather have? We will be back at 2 o'clock. - -(Whereupon, at 1:05 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Afternoon Session - -TESTIMONY OF JOHN LESTER QUIGLEY RESUMED - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 2:20 p.m. - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Stern, you may -continue. - -Mr. STERN. Before the luncheon recess, Mr. Chief Justice, the witness, -Mr. Quigley, had identified Commission Exhibit No. 826 and afforded -the Commission this one-page document which has been marked Commission -Exhibit No. 827. He identified it as a copy furnished him by Lieutenant -Martello of the New Orleans Police Department of Lieutenant Martello's -own handwritten copy of a document in the wallet of Lee Harvey Oswald -at the time of his arrest. I think it should be admitted, if it may be, -in this form. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be. - -(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission -Exhibits Nos. 826 and 827, were received in evidence.) - -Mr. STERN. Also, this morning a question was raised concerning the two -membership cards which are mentioned at page 7 of the report. - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I show you an envelope marked Commission Exhibit 828 for -identification. There is a card inside which, unfortunately, has been -badly discolored by fingerprint testing. Would you look at it and I -think if you turn it in different directions of light you may be able -to make out the typing and writing on the card. - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes; I can see this. - -Mr. STERN. Can you identify the card? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I am in no position to identify this particular exhibit. - -Mr. STERN. Can you tell us anything about the information that appears -on the card? Does it compare with any other information you have about -another card? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. At the time that I interviewed Oswald in New Orleans on -August 10, 1963, I observed two Fair Play for Cuba Committee cards. -One of them was signed V. L. Lee and was dated May 28, 1963, and it -purported to be a Fair Play for Cuba Committee card showing the address -of 799 Broadway, New York 3, N. Y. In looking at this exhibit, I see -that this is a similar card as described in my report. - -Mr. STERN. Similar in what respects? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Similar in that the identification I have just described -appears on the card in the Exhibit 828. However, I am not able to -identify the signature of any person other than V. L. Lee, and the -date I am unable to determine, although I do believe I see 5-28-63 -typewritten on the card. - -Mr. STERN. What about the color of the card? There is a portion on the -back, Mr. Quigley, which has not been discolored by the fingerprint -treatment. - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I notice this is gray in color and it is similar to a card -that was in Oswald's possession at that time which was also gray in -color. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Chairman, may this be admitted? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 828 for -identification, and received in evidence.) - -The CHAIRMAN. It has been identified and has a number, has it? - -Mr. STERN. Yes; No. 828. - -The CHAIRMAN. 828 will be admitted under that number. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Quigley, will you look, please, at Commission Exhibit -No. 825 for identification, at the fourth page from the end of that -exhibit? Can you identify that page for us? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes; I can. This is an affidavit that was prepared at -the FBI office, Dallas, Tex., on February 17, 1964, which bears my -signature as well as the signature of Miss Matty Havens, the notary -public. - -Mr. STERN. What was the occasion for your making this affidavit, Mr. -Quigley? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I was instructed to proceed to our Dallas office to -prepare such a document. This document relates to informant material. -This is the general context of it. Did you care for me to read the -document? - -Mr. STERN. No; we have it. Does informant mean to you only a person -who gives information in return for money or some other valuable -consideration, or does it have a broader meaning as far as you are -concerned? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. It would have a broader meaning as far as I was concerned. - -Mr. STERN. What would that mean when you used the word in this -affidavit? What did you mean by "informant"? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. One who furnishes information. - -Mr. STERN. For whatever reason? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Whatever may be the reason; yes. - -Mr. STERN. And you did not, according to your affidavit, ask Mr. -Oswald---- - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I did not ask or suggest that Mr. Oswald become an -informant of the FBI nor did I offer him any money or any other -inducements to become an informant. - -Mr. STERN. Did you say anything to him at all about getting in touch -with you or the FBI again about any matter? - -Mr. QUIGLEY. I did not. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Quigley, if you will, we will recall you if a -document comes just for your identification. It will only take a few -moments, I am sure. - -Thank you very much for your coming and helping us. - -Mr. QUIGLEY. Thank you very much, sir. - - -TESTIMONY OF JAMES PATRICK HOSTY, JR. - -The CHAIRMAN. Would you raise your right hand, please, and be sworn? -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this -Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. HOSTY. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please? Mr. Stern will conduct the -examination, Mr. Hosty. - -Mr. STERN. Would you state your full name for the record? - -Mr. HOSTY. My full name is James Patrick Hosty, Jr. - -Mr. STERN. And what is your present address? - -Mr. HOSTY. 11018 Genetta Drive, Dallas, 28, Tex. - -Mr. STERN. What was your education at the college level, Mr. Hosty? - -Mr. HOSTY. I have a bachelor of science degree in business -administration from the University of Notre Dame. - -Mr. STERN. When was that granted? - -Mr. HOSTY. In 1948, June of 1948. - -Mr. STERN. When did you join the Federal Bureau of Investigation? - -Mr. HOSTY. January 21, 1952. - -Mr. STERN. Briefly, what sort of work were you employed at between 1948 -and 1952? - -Mr. HOSTY. I was first employed by the First National Bank in Chicago, -and then employed by the Beechnut Packing Co. as a salesman. - -Mr. STERN. What were your assignments in the FBI? - -Mr. HOSTY. I was first assigned to the Louisville division on general -investigation, then transferred to the Dallas division and served in -general investigation until approximately June of 1955 when I was -assigned to the internal security squad. - -Mr. STERN. When did you first arrive in the Dallas office? - -Mr. HOSTY. December 2, 1953. - -Mr. STERN. You have been in Dallas---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Ever since. - -Mr. STERN. Ever since? - -Mr. HOSTY. Correct. - -Mr. STERN. Are you familiar with the Dallas area generally? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. You know the downtown locations? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. The buildings and streets? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Can you tell us whether you were assigned to the case of Lee -Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; I was. - -Mr. STERN. Did you take over from Agent Fain or in some other way? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I did not take over directly. When Agent Fain -retired directly from the Bureau he had closed the case. He had a case -which we call a pending inactive case on Mrs. Marina Oswald. This case -I did take over. It was in what we call a pending inactive status, -that is, nothing was to be done for a period of 6 months. Then at the -end of the 6-month period it was then turned into a pending case and I -went out and attempted to locate Mrs. Marina Oswald for the purpose of -interviewing her. - -I might add that it is the practice of the FBI to interview immigrants -from behind the Iron Curtain on a selective basis, and she was so -selected to be one of these persons to be interviewed. - -Mr. STERN. When was this? - -Mr. HOSTY. This was March 4, 1963, when I began my inquiry as to -her present whereabouts. I determined on March 4, 1963, through the -Immigration and Naturalization Service records that she had moved -from Fort Worth to the Dallas area. She was living on a street called -Elsbeth Street in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas. - -Mr. STERN. What happened in connection with the case of Lee Harvey -Oswald? - -Mr. HOSTY. This case was closed at this time. It was closed. - -On March 11, 1963, I made inquiry at this Elsbeth address, and -determined from the landlady, I believe her name was Mrs. Tobias, that -she had just evicted Lee and Marina Oswald from her apartment building -because of their alleged fighting and his alleged drinking. They caused -a disturbance and she had asked him to leave on March 3, 1963. She -told me they had moved a short distance away. She didn't know where. -On that same date, I was able to determine from the postal authorities -that they had changed their address to 214 Neely Street, also in the -Oak Cliff section of Dallas. - -On the 14th of March, I verified that Oswalds were residing at this -address when I found the mailbox with the name of Lee and Marina Oswald -at this address, 214 Neely Street. Now, because of the alleged marital -difficulties they were having, I in my judgment decided this was not -the time to interview Mrs. Oswald, but to allow a certain cooling off -period. So I then checked Lee Oswald's file, at which time I determined -that he had a contact with the New York Daily Worker. - -Mr. STERN. How did you learn that? - -Mr. HOSTY. From our New York office. Our New York office sent a letter -through to the Dallas office. This was the first time I had seen this -letter. - -Mr. STERN. This appeared in his file? - -Mr. HOSTY. In his file; yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Even if the case was closed, the file would continue to -accumulate? - -Mr. HOSTY. That is correct, and they are periodically rechecked for -things of this nature. - -I noticed it, and then because of the domestic difficulty and the -fact that I knew I would be interviewing his wife in the near future, -I requested that the case be reopened. I requested the supervisor in -Dallas to reopen the case to me. - -Mr. STERN. Was that in writing or verbally? - -Mr. HOSTY. Actually, it was, it would appear in writing. I did this by -sending a letter to the Bureau, to the FBI headquarters in Washington, -setting forth the information I had developed, and then on our office -copy I made a request that this case be reopened. This is a normal -procedure that we go through when we open cases, or reopen cases. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hosty, did the letter from your New York office say -what the nature of the contact with the Daily Worker was? - -Mr. HOSTY. It said he was on the mailing list, sir, of the Daily Worker. - -The CHAIRMAN. On the mailing list? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Proceed. - -Mr. HOSTY. Then, like I say, I made a judgment that it would be best -not to interview Mrs. Oswald at this time until there was a certain -cooling off of their domestic difficulty, because it is not wise to -interview a person of that type under a strain. - -So I set it up that I would go back and recheck in 45 days. This was -not highly urgent at the time. We had waited a period of time, and it -wouldn't hurt to wait another 45 days. When I went back to check again -in May, the middle of May, I found out that they had moved from their -Neely Street address and had left no forwarding address. - -Mr. STERN. Stop there and let's go back and cover a few details. - -Mr. HOSTY. All right, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Your recommendation to reopen the case of Lee Harvey Oswald -was made at the end of March 1963? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right; I believe the letter would be dated March 31. - -Mr. STERN. Was your recommendation accepted? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes; and it was reopened. - -Mr. STERN. With respect to the pending inactive investigation of Marina -Oswald, had any work been done previous to the time when you thought -about interviewing her? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; in a pending inactive case it is really almost in -the same status as a closed case. We do nothing on it, and it was just -a waiting period of 6 months that we had set up. - -Mr. STERN. Had that case been an active case? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; it never had been. It was opened as a pending -inactive case. - -Mr. STERN. So that no work had been done? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Until the point in time when you were considering the -possibility of interviewing Mrs. Oswald? - -Mr. HOSTY. The only work that had been done was the work which I did -in connection with the Lee Oswald case for Mr. Fain. I checked the -immigration records on Marina Oswald and got her background, just put -her background, her name, her description, her place of birth, and that -sort of thing in the file. - -Mr. STERN. What is the difference administratively between a "pending -inactive" and a "closed" case? - -Mr. HOSTY. In a pending inactive case, any information coming into the -office would be routed to the agent, it would not be put in the file -and be missed by the agent. - -Mr. STERN. Could Lee Harvey Oswald's case have been put in a pending -inactive status rather than a closed status in 1962? - -Mr. HOSTY. I wasn't involved in that. Mr. Fain was the one. - -Mr. STERN. But as far as administrative procedures are concerned? - -Mr. HOSTY. If they had so desired, I think they could have, yes. - -Mr. STERN. There was no policy or procedure? - -Mr. HOSTY. If there was some more work to be done, if they had decided -to, say, reinterview him at, say, in 6 months, they could have. - -Mr. STERN. But it would have taken something of that sort? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes; it would have to be some more work to be done on the -case in the opinion of the agent. - -Mr. STERN. So that pending inactive is part of pending? - -Mr. HOSTY. It is sort of midway between. - -Mr. STERN. Only the work you have decided to do is more remote? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. More in the future? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. You say that you were considering interviewing Marina Oswald? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. Did you know that she did not speak English? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes; I knew that. In fact, I determined that when I did the -neighborhood check on the 3d of March. - -Mrs. Tobias told me that she didn't speak a word of English and -couldn't communicate with anybody except her husband who spoke Russian. - -Mr. STERN. I show you a report of four pages, marked "Report of James -P. Hosty, Jr." - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. Dated 9-10-63. - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. And marked for identification Commission Exhibit No. 829. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 829 for -identification.) - -Mr. STERN. Can you identify that report for us? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; that is my report. - -Mr. STERN. Tell us how you came to prepare this report? - -Mr. HOSTY. Well, as I told you earlier, in May I found that they had -left, Marina and Lee Oswald had apparently left the Dallas area. - -In June, I believe it was the middle of June, we received a -communication from our New Orleans office advising that one Lee Oswald, -was apparently in New Orleans, and requested information on him. They -had had previous correspondence with the Dallas office in connection -with the Lee Oswald case, as an auxiliary office, and we are aware that -we did have a case on him. They asked if this could be the same man, -and I wrote back and told them that Lee Oswald had left the Dallas -area, and for them to attempt to verify the presence of Lee Oswald and -Marina Oswald in New Orleans. - -Mr. STERN. This was at what time, Mr. Hosty? - -Mr. HOSTY. This was June 17, I believe, they notified us, and by the -time I got the letter back to them within a week or 2 it would have -been the end of June, early part of July. I sent a request back that -they verify his presence in New Orleans. They then wrote back a letter -to me, within 2 or 3 weeks. It would have been in August when it came -back, that they had verified Oswald's presence in New Orleans, and that -he was working in New Orleans. - -Now, this meant under our procedure that since Lee Oswald and Marina -Oswald were now located in the New Orleans division, they would take -control of the case. - -Mr. STERN. Would you explain briefly for the Commission the terms -"Office of Origin" and "Auxiliary Office" and how you use those terms? - -Mr. HOSTY. Office of origin is the office covering the area of the -residence of the individual under investigation. This is the office -which controls the case. Now, an auxiliary office is any other office -which has investigation in the case and assists the office of origin in -this matter. - -New Orleans had earlier been an auxiliary office. Dallas had been the -office of origin. Now, the situation was reversed, because Lee Oswald -and Marina Oswald were now in New Orleans. This had been verified. - -Mr. STERN. Would you just summarize the relevant dates from March 1963 -through August 1963 in terms of your concern and what you found out -about his movements and your communications with the New Orleans office? - -Mr. HOSTY. All right. This would be March 4 I got the address in Dallas. - -March 11 I determined that they had moved from that one address to -another address in Dallas. - -March 14 I verified that address. I sent the communication to the -Bureau and requested the case be reopened on March 25. I rechecked in -the middle part of May as to if they were still at that address in -Dallas and determined that they were gone. - -On June 17 New Orleans contacted our office, and advised that they had -information that the Oswalds were in New Orleans. Early July I wrote to -New Orleans and requested that they verify this information and let me -know. Early August they did so verify it. - -Mr. STERN. If you will look at page 2 of the report we have marked for -identification No. 829---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. The last paragraph on that page relates--well, tell us what -information that refers to. - -Mr. HOSTY. It says, "On April 21, 1963, Dallas confidential informant -T-2 advised that Lee H. Oswald of Dallas, Tex., was in contact with the -Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New York City at which time he advised -that he passed out pamphlets for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. -According to T-2, Oswald had a placard around his neck reading, 'Hands -Off Cuba, Viva Fidel.'" - -Mr. STERN. Did you attempt to verify that information? - -Mr. HOSTY. When I got it, it was approximately 6 or 7 weeks old, past -the date it allegedly took place, and we had received no information -to the effect that anyone had been in the downtown streets of Dallas -or anywhere in Dallas with a sign around their neck saying "Hands Off -Cuba, Viva Fidel." It appeared highly unlikely to me that such an -occurrence could have happened in Dallas without having been brought to -our attention. So by the time I got it, it was, you might say, stale -information and we did not attempt to verify it. - -Mr. STERN. When you record this as something that an informant advised -about on April 21, that doesn't mean he advised you or the Dallas -office on April 21? - -Mr. HOSTY. That is right. - -Mr. STERN. Did this information come from another part of the FBI? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; it came from the New York office of the FBI. They -were advised on the 21st of April. - -Mr. STERN. But the information didn't get to you until some time after? - -Mr. HOSTY. In June, I believe. - -Mr. STERN. Did you have any information apart from this that there was -an organization active in the Dallas area called, "The Fair Play for -Cuba Committee"? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; we had no information of any organization by that -name. - -Mr. STERN. Had you at this time ever heard of such an organization? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; I had. - -Mr. STERN. In what connection? - -Mr. HOSTY. The New York office had advised all offices of the FBI -to be on the alert for the possible formation of chapters of this -organization which was headquartered in New York. - -Mr. STERN. Had you investigated the Dallas area in that connection? - -Mr. HOSTY. We had checked our sources, I had and other agents assigned -to the internal security division had checked sources. We were on the -alert for it. - -Mr. STERN. And you found what? - -Mr. HOSTY. We found no evidence that there was any such organization in -Dallas. - -Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed this report marked for identification No. -829, Mr. Hosty? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. STERN. In connection with your preparation for testimony today? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Is there any change you would like to make in anything set -forth in it? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I wish it to stand as it reads. - -Mr. STERN. Is there anything you would like to add? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Amplify? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. The letters "RUC" appear on the first page after the -synopsis. - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. What do they mean? - -Mr. HOSTY. That stands for "Referred Upon Completion" to the office of -origin. - -Mr. STERN. What does that indicate? - -Mr. HOSTY. This indicates that as an auxiliary office we have now -completed our investigation. - -Mr. STERN. When did Dallas become an auxiliary office in connection -with this case? - -Mr. HOSTY. It became an auxiliary office upon the submission of the -proper forms to the New Orleans office in which I designated them as -office of origin. They had verified the residence and employment of Lee -Oswald in their city, so upon sending this report and the form they -automatically became office of origin. - -Representative FORD. Who makes that determination, Mr. Hosty? - -Mr. HOSTY. Well, sir; actually it is made by the person who resides in -their area, sir. When they reside in their area and work in their area -they automatically become office of origin. - -The old office of origin sends a form to the new office and advises -them, "You are now office of origin." Of course the Bureau gets a copy -of that. - -Representative FORD. Do you actually move the files or do they get -duplicates? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. What we do is we review our files and see what -communications in the file they do not have copies of. Then they are -then sent the copies of any communications they don't have, so that -they have a complete file. There is nothing that they don't have. - -Representative FORD. You don't actually transfer anything from your -office? - -Mr. HOSTY. No; the file is not transferred. Individual communications -would be if they were lacking a particular communication. Now, in -this case New Orleans had previous communications. They did have some -background. It was necessary for me to give them a couple of Mr. Fain's -reports that you people have looked at earlier. I had to send those -reports to them. They hadn't gotten them. - -Mr. STERN. I think it is appropriate to have this admitted at this -time, if we may, Mr. Chairman. - -The CHAIRMAN. The document that has been numbered 829 may be admitted. - -(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 829 for -identification was received in evidence.) - -The CHAIRMAN. I would like to ask you, Mr. Hosty, about the information -that Mrs. Tobias gave you. I am reading from it now: "Mrs. Tobias -advised they had considerable difficulty with Mr. Oswald who -apparently drank to excess and beat his wife on numerous occasions. -They had numerous complaints from the other tenants due to Oswald's -drinking and beating his wife." - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Did you investigate that to see if that was true. - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I took her word for it. There was no reason for -me to press it any farther. She had apparently looked into it and had -evicted them on the basis of her feelings. I was just reporting what -she had done. - -Mr. STERN. Had you had any part of the investigation of the case of Lee -Harvey Oswald before the time covered by the report? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; I had. - -On the 12th of July 1962 on request of former Agent John Fain, I -checked the records of the Immigration and Naturalization Service in -Dallas, and got the background information on Marina Oswald, the wife -of Lee Oswald. I incorporated it into a memorandum. - -Mr. STERN. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 824 which has previously -been admitted. Can you identify any part of that? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; starting in the details here, when it says "At -Dallas the following investigation was conducted by S. A. James P. -Hosty, Jr.," this is a direct copy of my memorandum which I prepared -for Agent Fain down to and including all of page 2. - -Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed that---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. In preparation for your testimony, and have you anything you -would like to correct or add? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. After the New Orleans office became office of origin, Mr. -Hosty, did you have any further connection with the investigation of -Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; not until October of 1963. - -Mr. STERN. Not until October? No mention of his name as far as you are -concerned until then? - -Mr. HOSTY. No. - -Mr. STERN. I show you a two-page document which has been marked -Commission Exhibit No. 830 for identification. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 830 for -identification.) - -Can you identify this document? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. This is an insert which I prepared for a larger -report. Notice on the top the initials "JPH." Those are my initials, -showing I prepared these two pages. - -Mr. STERN. Have you looked at the larger report from which this was -taken? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Does any part of that report relate to an investigation made -before November 22, 1963? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; this is the only part that relates to investigation -prior to the 22d of November 1963. - -Mr. STERN. Why was it that this was not made the subject of a separate -report? - -Mr. HOSTY. I don't know. I didn't make that decision. - -Mr. STERN. This is something you filed covering---- - -Mr. HOSTY. I was told to do it this way, and I did it. - -Mr. STERN. You said before that you had no further connection with the -case of Oswald until October 1963. - -Mr. HOSTY. That is correct. - -Mr. STERN. Would you tell us in detail what your first contact was in -October? - -Mr. HOSTY. On October 3, 1963, I received a communication from our New -Orleans office advising that Lee Oswald and his wife Marina Oswald -had left the New Orleans area a short time before. According to the -communication, Marina Oswald, who was at that time 8 months pregnant, -had left New Orleans with her small child, 2-year-old child, in a -station wagon with a Texas license plate driven by a woman who could -speak the Russian language. Lee Oswald had remained behind and then -disappeared the next day. I was requested to attempt to locate Lee and -Marina Oswald. - -Mr. STERN. Did the request come to you personally? - -Mr. HOSTY. To the Dallas office, and the case was then reopened to me. -Dallas was an auxiliary office to New Orleans, and it was reopened. I -had previously handled the case. It was reopened and assigned to me. - -Mr. STERN. And by what office? - -Mr. HOSTY. By the Dallas office, reopened the case in Dallas. - -Mr. STERN. By the supervisor? - -Mr. HOSTY. Supervisor of our squad, yes. - -Mr. STERN. And what squad is that? - -Mr. HOSTY. The internal security squad. - -Mr. STERN. What did you do on October 3 and thereafter? - -Mr. HOSTY. Well, there wasn't too much to go on, just a woman driving -a station wagon with a Texas license plate. I went to the immigration -office to check to see if they had any information, tried to determine -if we had any persons around the area, I tried to think of anyone who -spoke Russian who had a station wagon and who was a friend of Marina -Oswald's. I went to Fort Worth and checked in his old neighborhood, -Lee and Marina's old neighborhood, attempted to locate Robert Oswald, -his brother, and determined that Robert Oswald had left the Fort Worth -area, had moved to Arkansas. - -I then sent out a lead to the Little Rock office which covered the area -of Malvern, Ark., where Robert Oswald was living, and requested that he -be contacted to see if he knew where Lee Oswald was. Then I continued -checking through the Dallas and Fort Worth area attempting to determine -if the Oswalds had returned to the Dallas or Fort Worth areas. - -Mr. STERN. Was this a usual or unusual amount of effort? - -Mr. HOSTY. I would say usual amount. I went to neighborhoods where I -knew they had been, checked with relatives who had previously been -cooperative, just the usual. - -Mr. STERN. Was there any notion of urgency in locating him that you got -from the New Orleans office? - -Mr. HOSTY. No particular note of urgency. Just to let me know that he -had left and be on the alert for him. - -Mr. STERN. Did they tell you anything about what he had been doing in -New Orleans? - -Mr. HOSTY. Not at that time. - -Mr. STERN. Did you have any information apart from what you knew before -he moved to New Orleans at that time? - -Mr. HOSTY. Well, I had learned before we had referred the case to New -Orleans that he had been engaged in this Fair Play for Cuba Committee -work down in New Orleans. They had told us that. We were aware that he -was in contact with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New York. That -was about all at this time. - -Mr. STERN. You learned this from the New Orleans office? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. What next happened in your effort to locate him? - -Mr. HOSTY. I then received a communication on the 25th of October from -the New Orleans office advising me that another agency had determined -that Lee Oswald was in contact with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City -in the early part of October 1963. - -Mr. STERN. Did they tell you anything else? - -Mr. HOSTY. No. Just very briefly that there had been a contact. - -Mr. STERN. Did this increase your effort to find him? - -Mr. HOSTY. Very much so, yes. I became curious then. Shortly -thereafter, on the 29th of October, I received another communication -from the New Orleans office advising that they had a change of address -for Lee and Marina Oswald to 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex. - -Mr. STERN. You received that information when? - -Mr. HOSTY. On the 29th of October. - -Mr. STERN. What did you do then? - -Mr. HOSTY. Well, I went to--I checked the Dallas crisscross. -Unfortunately Irving is a suburb outside of Dallas and people -residing in Irving are not covered in the city directory, so it is -very difficult to determine who resides at a given address in Irving. -I then went out on the same date, on the 29th of October 1963, to the -neighborhood of 2515 West Fifth Street, made inquiry at 2519 West Fifth -Street, made what we call a pretext interview, and talked to a woman, -whose name at that time I didn't know, but who I now know to be Mrs. -Dorothy Roberts. - -Mr. STERN. What did Mrs. Roberts tell you? - -Mr. HOSTY. Mrs. Roberts told me that the residence of 2515 West Fifth -Street was Mrs. Ruth Paine, the wife of Michael R. Paine. They were at -this time separated. Michael was not living at that address. - -She told me that Michael Paine was employed as engineer at the Bell -Helicopter Co. in Fort Worth, Tex., that Mrs. Paine was employed on -a part-time basis as a teacher of the Russian language at St. Marks -School for Boys in Dallas, Tex. - -She further told me that there was a Russian-born and Russian-speaking -woman residing with Mrs. Paine. She told me this woman did not speak -any English, and that she had just given birth the week before that to -a new baby and she had another small child. - -This woman further advised me that the wife of this Russian-born woman, -who was an American, had visited his wife there on one occasion, but -did not reside on West Fifth Street in Irving. - -Mr. STERN. You mean husband. - -Mr. HOSTY. Husband, yes; I am sorry. I mean the husband of the Russian, -that is right. - -Mr. STERN. Did you obtain any other information? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, not at that time. That is what I determined from Mrs. -Roberts at the time. - -Mr. STERN. What did you do next? - -Mr. HOSTY. On the 31st of October, I did a credit check on Michael and -Ruth Paine for the purpose of developing further background. - -This credit check showed that Michael Paine was employed at Bell -Helicopter as an engineer, showed no employment for Mrs. Paine, just -showed her as a housewife, showed they had resided in Irving area for a -number of years, and showed a good reputation. - -I then checked the criminal records of the Irving Police Department, -Dallas County Sheriff's Office. They had no record for either Ruth -or Michael Paine. Contacted the Bell Helicopter Co. and the security -officer at Bell Helicopter, Mr. Ted Schurman, advised me that Michael -Paine was employed by them as a research engineer and he held a -security clearance. - -I then went to St. Marks School in Dallas. I had known from previous -experience this school enjoyed a good reputation and I could approach -them safely. I talked to Mr. Edward T. Oviatt, the assistant headmaster -at St. Marks School. He told me that Mrs. Paine was a satisfactory -employee, loyal to the United States, and he considered her to be -a stable individual. He stated that Mrs. Paine was employed as a -part-time teacher of the Russian language at that school, and he also -advised that in a recent conversation with Mrs. Paine she had advised -him that she had a Russian-born woman living with her. - -This woman could not speak any English. She had just given birth to a -new baby, and she had another small child. The husband of this woman -had deserted her and Mrs. Paine felt sorry for her and had taken her in. - -Mr. Oviatt went on to explain that Mrs. Paine did this for two reasons. -She wanted to improve her Russian-speaking ability by having this -person who spoke only Russian in her household. Also, he stated that -she was by nature a very kindly individual, Quaker by background, -and this was the sort of thing that she would do to help a person in -distress. - -Mr. STERN. What was the purpose of all these inquiries into the -background of Mr. and Mrs. Paine? - -Mr. HOSTY. I wanted to make sure before I approached Mrs. Paine that -she was not involved in any way with Lee Oswald, in any type of -activities which were against the best interests of the United States. - -Mr. STERN. How do you mean before you approached Mrs. Paine? - -Mr. HOSTY. Well, it was my intention since we could not determine where -Lee Oswald was, that he was obviously not at her address, that the best -way to find out would be to ask Mrs. Paine. - -Mr. STERN. And you were doing all this in connection with the original -request? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. From the New Orleans Office? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. And that was? - -Mr. HOSTY. To locate Lee Oswald. - -Mr. STERN. What did you do next? - -Mr. HOSTY. The next day was the 1st of November. I worked in the Fort -Worth area in the morning and on my way back from the Fort Worth area -at approximately 2:30 p.m., I stopped at the residence of Mrs. Ruth -Paine, 2515 West Fifth Street, and identified myself as a special agent -of the FBI, and asked if I could talk to her. She was very cordial and -friendly, invited me into the house. At this time, she was the only -one in the living room. Her small children were taking their naps, and -apparently Marina Oswald and her children were, also napping. - -Mr. STERN. Excuse me, Mr. Hosty. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 430, -which is a floor plan of the Paine home. - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. Can you show the Commission from this where you went as you -came into the house and where you talked to Mrs. Paine? - -Mr. HOSTY. This is the front door, and we talked right here in the -living room. I believe the couch was right along here. I believe I sat -here and Mrs. Paine sat here, right here in the living room. We were -the only two in the living room, to start with. - -Mr. STERN. Did you conduct this interview alone? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; I was the only agent present. - -Mr. STERN. Is that usual or unusual? - -Mr. HOSTY. It is the usual custom when we are talking to a person -who is not a subject or a hostile witness, and Mrs. Paine was not -considered a hostile witness. - -Mr. STERN. Can you show us from Exhibit 430 approximately where you -parked your car that day if you recall? - -Mr. HOSTY. I don't recall specifically. I do recall that her station -wagon was parked in the driveway. There was another car in front of the -house, and it is my recollection that I parked, perhaps, here. - -There is another house right next door here which was vacant, and I -believe I parked in front of the vacant house right next door. - -Mr. STERN. Would you put your initials where you think you parked your -car, on that exhibit, please? It was about that close to the front of -the house, you believe? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes; it was not directly in front of the house because -there was another car. Michael Paine, apparently, had two cars, and he -kept one of them over here and he used the other one where he was now -living. He left his other car here and there was a station wagon in the -driveway. - -Representative FORD. Is Mrs. Roberts' residence on---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Mrs. Roberts' residence is over here, sir. - -Representative FORD. On the other side? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. This is a vacant house. - -Mr. STERN. The top of that page is north. - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. This would be 2519, 2515, and probably 2511 here. - -Mr. STERN. 2511, you are indicating the east side of that diagram? - -Mr. HOSTY. East, yes. It would go east. - -Mr. STERN. 2519 the west side? - -Mr. HOSTY. West side, that is correct. - -Mr. STERN. North being the top? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. Now, tell us in detail of your interview with Mrs. Paine -starting from the time you rang the doorbell. - -Mr. HOSTY. All right. As I say, when I entered the house I immediately -identified myself. I showed her my credentials, identified myself as a -special agent of the FBI, and requested to talk to her. - -She invited me into the house. - -Mr. STERN. Did she seemed surprised at your visit? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, she didn't. She was quite friendly and invited me in, -said this is the first time she had ever met an FBI agent. Very cordial. - -As I say, it is my recollection I sat here on the couch and she sat -across the room from me. - -I then told her the purpose of my visit, that I was interested in -locating the whereabouts of Lee Oswald. - -She readily admitted that Mrs. Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald's two -children were staying with her. She said that Lee Oswald was living -somewhere in Dallas. She didn't know where. She said it was in the Oak -Cliff area but she didn't have his address. - -I asked her if she knew where he worked. After a moment's hesitation, -she told me that he worked at the Texas School Book Depository near the -downtown area of Dallas. She didn't have the exact address, and it is -my recollection that we went to the phone book and looked it up, found -it to be 411 Elm Street. - -Mr. STERN. You looked it up while you were there? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes; that is my recollection that we looked it up in her -telephone book to show it at 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Tex. - -She told me at this time that she did not know where he was living, but -she thought she could find out and she would let me know. - -Mr. STERN. Did she tell you why she thought he was living alone in -Dallas at that time? - -Mr. HOSTY. Well, she said that she did not want him at her house; that -she was willing to take Marina Oswald and the two children, but she -didn't have room for him and she didn't want him at the house. She was -willing to let him visit his wife and family, but she did not want him -residing there. - -Mr. STERN. What did she say about his visits? - -Mr. HOSTY. She remarked that he came out there periodically to visit -his wife and children on weekends. - -Mr. STERN. Did she say when she expected his next visit might be? - -Mr. HOSTY. I don't recall her stating when she expected him, no. - -Mr. STERN. Did she say anything about the possibility of his coming -later that day? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. You say the interview started at about 2:30? - -Mr. HOSTY. Approximately 2:30; yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. About how long did it last? - -Mr. HOSTY. At the very most 20-25 minutes. - -Mr. STERN. Were you alone with Mrs. Paine throughout this period? - -Mr. HOSTY. No; towards the conclusion of the interview, Marina Oswald, -who had apparently been napping, entered the living room. - -Mr. STERN. Had you ever met Mrs. Oswald before? - -Mr. HOSTY. Never before, no. As I had learned previously, and as Mrs. -Paine had told me, she did not speak any English, so Mrs. Paine then -told her in the Russian language who I was. I was an agent with the FBI. - -I could tell from her eyes and her expression that she became quite -alarmed, quite upset. I had had previous experience with people who -come from Communist-controlled countries that they get excited when -they see the police. They must think that we are like the Gestapo or -something like that. - -She became quite alarmed, and, like I say, I knew that she just had a -baby the week before. So I didn't want to leave her in that state, so -rather than just walking out and leaving her and not saying anything to -her, I told Mrs. Paine to relate to her in the Russian language that I -was not there for the purpose of harming her, harassing her, and that -it wasn't the job of the FBI to harm people. It was our job to protect -people. - -Mrs. Paine relayed this information. - -I assume she relayed it correctly. I don't speak Russian. - -Representative FORD. What was the reaction, if any, on the part of -Marina following that comment by Mrs. Paine? - -Mr. HOSTY. The information I had her relay? She seemed to calm down a -little bit, and when I left she was smiling. I left her in a relaxed -mood. I didn't want to leave her alarmed and upset, a woman with a new -baby. It is not the thing to do. So she apparently was smiling, happy, -and she shook hands with me as I left, I wanted to leave her in a good -frame of mind. I then left. - -Mr. STERN. Did you address any questions to Marina Oswald through Mrs. -Paine? - -Mr. HOSTY. Not questions, no. I just relayed the information to her of -this nature I just gave. - -Mr. STERN. Anything else that you said---- - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; that is all I can recall. - -Mr. STERN. To be translated for Marina Oswald? - -Mr. HOSTY. No. - -Mr. STERN. Anything else about your interview with Mrs. Paine? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes; after Mrs. Paine told me that she would try to find -out where Lee Oswald was living, I then gave her my name and telephone -number. I wrote it down on a piece of paper for her. I am fairly -certain I printed it so she would be able to read it all right. I -printed my name and wrote down my office telephone number, and handed -it to Mrs. Paine. - -Mr. STERN. Did you put anything else on this piece of paper? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; that was all. - -Mr. STERN. Are you quite sure about your recollection of that, or are -you telling us on the basis of your ordinary experience? Is this what -you remember of the incident? - -Mr. HOSTY. This is what I remember of it; yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. You don't remember putting anything on this paper other than -your name? - -Mr. HOSTY. My name and telephone number. - -Mr. STERN. Office telephone? - -Mr. HOSTY. Office telephone; right. - -Mr. STERN. And no other telephone number? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. No address? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. License number? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. You are quite certain that you can recall now only those two -things? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes; I do this as a standard procedure. I do this all the -time. I will write my name out if a person says they want to contact -me. I will give them my name and telephone number, write it on a piece -of paper and give it to them. - -Representative FORD. Did you write on notepaper you had or paper -provided by Mrs. Paine, or what? - -Mr. HOSTY. It was my recollection it was on my paper. I took a piece of -paper off, tore it in half, printed my name and telephone number on it -that I gave to her. - -Mr. STERN. Do you have cards? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; we don't have cards. We are not allowed to carry -cards. - -Mr. STERN. When Mrs. Paine told you that Lee Harvey Oswald was working -at the School Book Depository, did that mean anything to you? Did you -remember the building? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I knew of the building in the outskirts of the -downtown area. That is about all. I looked up the address, and I -recognized the address, but it meant nothing to me. - -Mr. STERN. Is there anything else at all that you can recall being said -on November 1? - -Mr. HOSTY. As I said earlier, I think I should bring this in, that Mrs. -Paine was a little bit reluctant to give me his place of employment at -first. She said that Lee Oswald had alleged that the FBI had had him -fired from every job he ever had. I told her this was not true, that I -had never had anyone fired from any job nor did I know of any other FBI -agents that had ever done this. - -I reassured her that I wanted to know his place of employment for the -purpose of determining whether or not he was employed in a sensitive -industry, and when I found out that he was working in a warehouse as a -laborer, I realized this was not a sensitive industry. - -Mr. STERN. You were acting for the New Orleans office at this time? - -Mr. HOSTY. At this time; yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. In trying to locate him? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. Had they asked you to try to determine what kind of work he -was doing and whether he might be in a sensitive position? - -Mr. HOSTY. Well, this is automatically considered; yes. They didn't -have to ask me. I knew I was to do that. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you clear this with the Dallas or Fort Worth office? -How do you work out that liaison? - -Mr. HOSTY. How do you mean, sir? - -Mr. DULLES. I mean with the FBI. At this time this was the territory, I -assume, of Dallas or Fort Worth. - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. Irving, Tex., is in the Dallas territory; yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. The Dallas territory? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you clear or notify the Dallas office either before or -after? - -Mr. HOSTY. You mean after I determined this? - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. HOSTY. Oh, yes, sir. This occurred on the 1st. This was a Friday. I -returned to the Dallas office. I covered a couple of other leads on the -way back. I got in shortly after 5 o'clock and all our stenos had gone -home. This information has to go registered mail, and it could not go -then until Monday morning. - -Monday morning--shall I continue? - -Mr. STERN. Yes. - -Mr. HOSTY. On Monday morning, I made a pretext telephone call to the -Texas School Book Depository. I called up and asked for the personnel -department, asked if a Lee Oswald was employed there. They said yes, -he was. I said what address does he show? They said 2515 West Fifth -Street, Irving, Tex., which I knew not to be his correct address. - -I then sent a communication, airmail communication to the New Orleans -office advising them--and to the headquarters of the FBI advising -them--and then instructing the New Orleans office to make the Dallas -office the office of origin. We were now assuming control, because he -had now been verified in our division. - -Representative FORD. When you say you made several other checks on the -way to the office, did this involve---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Not in this case; other cases. I run anywhere from 25 to 40 -cases any one time. I have to work them all, fit them in as I go. - -Representative FORD. These other checks did not involve this case? - -Mr. HOSTY. No; other cases I was working on. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Hosty, at your interview on November 1 with Mrs. Paine, -do you recall whether you asked her whether there was any telephone -number that she knew of where Lee Harvey Oswald could be reached? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I didn't ask her about a telephone number; no, sir. - -Mr. STERN. And she didn't tell you? - -Mr. HOSTY. She didn't volunteer. She told me she did not know where he -lived. - -Mr. STERN. Why don't you continue with the chronological report. - -Mr. HOSTY. As I say, then I forwarded this airmail communication. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I ask at this point, did she indicate whether there -were any belongings of Lee Oswald in the house? - -Mr. HOSTY. She did not indicate, but, of course, she did tell me his -wife and children were there, and I assumed that their personal -effects would be there. We didn't go into that. - -Mr. McCLOY. You made no search of the house? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; that would have been illegal. I couldn't have done -it without his consent. There was no attempt to do that. - -Mr. STERN. Did you have any thought of interviewing Marina Oswald at -the time she came into Mrs. Paine's living room in connection with the -investigation of Marina Oswald that you had started out thinking about -in March? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes; I could have interviewed her here, but I thought at the -time she was under a little emotional stress, this was maybe not a good -time. Also, as I said before, we have a requirement to have two agents -present when a subject is interviewed. I was alone. And, also, I wanted -to get the New Orleans office to check their files to see if there was -anything that I didn't have. For all I knew, they could have already -interviewed her. I didn't know this. So before I would proceed with -that, I wanted to make sure I had all the records, another agent, and -at a better time where I could talk in more detail with Mrs. Oswald. - -Then on the 5th of November---- - -Mr. STERN. Have you told us everything that elapsed--that occurred -between November 1 and November 5? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes. Then on the 5th of November, I was on my way to the -Fort Worth area, and stopped at Mrs. Paine's very briefly. - -Mr. STERN. How did that happen to come about? - -Mr. HOSTY. Well, I was on my way to Fort Worth, and I did not have his -residence. I thought I would stop by. Mrs. Paine told me she would -attempt to locate where he was living. It was not too much out of my -way, so I just drove over to Mrs. Paine's. I had another agent with me -that day. - -Mr. STERN. Who was that? - -Mr. HOSTY. Agent Gary S. Wilson. Agent Wilson was a brand new agent out -of training school. And it is the custom to assign a new agent to work -with an older agent for a period of 6 weeks. They work with different -agents every day to observe what they are doing. This is the only -reason he was with me, the only reason I had another man. - -We went to the front porch. I rang the bell, talked to Mrs. Paine, at -which time she advised me that Lee Oswald had been out to visit her, -visit his wife, at her house over the weekend, but she had still not -determined where he was living in Dallas, and she also made the remark -that she considered him to be a very illogical person, that he had told -her that weekend that he was a Trotskyite Communist. Since she did not -have his address, I thanked her and left. - -Mr. STERN. Did she indicate how she felt about this description of -Trotskyite Communist that he pinned on himself? - -Mr. HOSTY. Well, she thought he was rather illogical, is the way she -put it. She was a little more amused than anything else. She thought he -was illogical, as I say, was the term she used. - -Mr. STERN. Was Marina Oswald present at all? - -Mr. HOSTY. I didn't see her. She was probably in the house, but I -didn't see her. I didn't go in the house. I just went in the front door. - -Mr. STERN. How long do you think it was? - -Mr. HOSTY. Not more than 1 or 2 minutes. Then I got in the car and left. - -Mr. STERN. Where was your car parked at that time? - -Mr. HOSTY. I believe in the same place, because here, again, this -second car of Michael Paine's was still in front of the Paine house, -and Mrs. Paine's station wagon was in the driveway. So I am fairly sure -I parked here at the same spot. - -Mr. STERN. And you are indicating the spot on Exhibit 430 where you -initialed? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right, where I parked on the first of November, to the best -of my recollection that is where I parked. - -Representative FORD. Did Agent Wilson accompany you to the door? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes; he walked up. - -Representative FORD. And heard the conversation? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; he did. - -Mr. STERN. Did you report anything about this conversation to the New -Orleans office? - -Mr. HOSTY. No; because there was nothing new to report. I knew I was to -become the office of origin. There would be a report which I would be -preparing and I would incorporate it in my report. There was nothing -new that they didn't already know that would aid them. - -Mr. STERN. Is there anything else about this interview on November 5 -that you can tell us? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; that is about all. - -Representative FORD. Was this comment by Mrs. Paine that Oswald had -said he was a Trotskyite---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Trotskyite Communist was the word she used; yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Was that new as far as your knowledge of your file -was concerned? - -Mr. HOSTY. Well, he was a self-admitted Marxist. He had stated that -earlier. The New Orleans office had reported that. He had been on -television and made that statement in New Orleans, so this appeared to -be in keeping with his character. - -Representative FORD. The use of the word Trotskyite didn't add anything -to the previous Marxist identification? - -Mr. HOSTY. Well, of course, that is a particular type of Marxism, -Trotskyite, the followers of Leon Trotsky's particular deviation, but -this did show that he was not a member of the Communist Party USA, -follower of the Leninist-Stalinist-Khrushchev movement, but would be an -independent Marxist would be what it would show me, not tied in with -the regular Communist Party USA. - -Representative FORD. Is there anything particularly identifiable with -the Trotskyite element that might alert you to anything? - -Mr. HOSTY. Well, yes. The Socialist Workers Party is the Trotskyite -Party in the United States, and they are supposedly the key element in -the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, or were the key element in the Fair -Play for Cuba Committee. So this would tie in with the fact that he -was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and, therefore, he -claimed to be a Trotskyite--this would follow. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you associate with Trotskyite Communists any greater -disposition to acts of violence than the normal Communist? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; no more than the others. - -Mr. McCLOY. No doctrine of policy by assassination? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed, Mr. Hosty, the document that has been -marked No. 830 for identification preliminary to your testimony today? - -Mr. HOSTY. Oh, yes; this one you gave me earlier; yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. I don't find a date on that. Maybe there is one there. - -Mr. HOSTY. This is an insert, sir. The date of the various information -will appear at the head of each paragraph. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. But the date of preparation is not---- - -Mr. HOSTY. The date of preparation would be some time after the 22d of -November. - -Representative FORD. What do those identification numbers at the top in -the left-hand corner mean? - -Mr. HOSTY. That is our Dallas office file number 105-1716. - -Representative FORD. Does that appear on the other documents? - -Mr. HOSTY. Wait a minute; this relates to a control file. I believe -that is the control file on Mrs. Paine, Mrs. Paine's file number. - -Mr. DULLES. I wonder if I could just interrupt. - -This is on the record. I am not quite clear, maybe because I came in -late. Are you from the Dallas or New Orleans office? - -Mr. HOSTY. I am from the Dallas division. - -Mr. DULLES. From the Dallas division? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -The man right before me was from the New Orleans division. I am from -the Dallas division. - -Mr. DULLES. You are from the Dallas division? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. May I pursue this just a minute. These -identification numbers at the top in the upper left--as I understand it -now, you are saying related to Mrs. Paine's file? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Representative FORD. Now, would this, even though it was from Mrs. -Paine's file, have been in either Marina or Lee Harvey Oswald's file or -both? - -Mr. HOSTY. This did appear in the report on Lee Harvey Oswald. That was -the report of December 2, I believe was the date. That was the first -report. You probably have that overall report, don't you? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Representative FORD. Did this material which was in Mrs. Paine's -file---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Representative FORD. Appear in either Marina or Lee Harvey Oswald's -file prior to the assassination? - -Mr. HOSTY. Let me see. Part of it would have, this paragraph on page -11, this November 1, Mrs. Ruth Paine was interviewed. This appeared in -the communication I sent out to the New Orleans office advising them -where he was employed. - -Mr. DULLES. When was that sent? - -Mr. HOSTY. The 4th of November, sir. The rest of it was in note form. I -hadn't reduced it to writing yet. - -Representative FORD. I am still not clear what part was in Mrs. Paine's -file and what part was in Marina's file and what part was in Lee Harvey -Oswald's file prior to November 22. - -Mr. HOSTY. Prior to November 22 just--there was no file for Mrs. Paine -prior to November 22. - -Representative FORD. So this didn't appear in her file? - -Mr. HOSTY. No. - -Representative FORD. Until subsequent to---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Representative FORD. The assassination? - -Mr. HOSTY. There was no file for Mrs. Paine until after the -assassination. - -Representative FORD. Then what part appeared in Marina's file or Lee -Harvey's file prior to November 22? - -Mr. HOSTY. Just the second paragraph of this page 11 or the second page. - -Mr. DULLES. Would this have constituted a reopening of the Lee Harvey -Oswald file, because I think we had testimony this morning that the -file had been closed. - -Mr. HOSTY. This would constitute having the New Orleans office change -origin to Dallas. At this time the file on Lee Oswald was open. We were -open as an auxiliary office. - -Mr. DULLES. In---- - -Mr. HOSTY. In Dallas. - -Mr. DULLES. In Dallas? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right, and this communication to New Orleans was a request -that we be made origin. - -Mr. STERN. I wonder if I might summarize this? - -Mr. DULLES. It is not clear to me. - -Mr. HOSTY. You missed a lot of this. - -Mr. STERN. The file was closed, sir, until March of 1963 when Mr. Hosty -decided it should be reopened on the basis of two items of information, -one of them the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was listed as a subscriber -to the Worker newspaper. - -Mr. DULLES. This is the Dallas file you are now talking of? - -Mr. STERN. Dallas. The case was closed in the Dallas office. He -reopened it in the Dallas office. He subsequently found that Oswald had -moved, apparently permanently, to New Orleans, and had the file and the -case administratively shifted as far as his responsibility, as far as -his primary responsibility, to the New Orleans office. - -Mr. DULLES. Does that mean the papers were also shifted? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; just those papers which they lacked. I reviewed -our file. I could tell what communications they had and which -communications they didn't. I then gave them all communications which I -was not certain that they had. - -Mr. DULLES. But the other communications remained in the Dallas file? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. DULLES. But the Dallas file, then, was not, in a sense, reactivated -since the action had been transferred to New Orleans, is that correct? - -Mr. HOSTY. To New Orleans; right. Then in October the case was shifted -back to Dallas again. - -Mr. DULLES. At what time? - -Mr. HOSTY. Well, actually, November 4 would be our request to have the -case transferred back to Dallas office of origin. - -Mr. STERN. I think you ought to make clear, Mr. Hosty, to Mr. Dulles, -that early in October you started doing something for the New Orleans -office at their request. - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. New Orleans found that they couldn't locate Lee Harvey -Oswald in New Orleans. - -Mr. DULLES. He had left in the meantime? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. Yes; from their leads he seemed to have gone back into the -Dallas area, and they asked the Dallas office to see if they could -locate him. Mr. Hosty was doing this work at the end of October and the -beginning of November when he ran these interviews. Just to complete -that, Mr. Hosty, you expected, did you not, that the case would be -reassigned? - -Mr. HOSTY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. STERN. To the Dallas office? - -Mr. HOSTY. Oh, yes. This was tantamount to requesting it be shifted to -us, yes, when I sent this communication. - -Mr. STERN. And you were beginning to think in terms of the case being -your problem again? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. Even though formally at the time you were only---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Auxiliary office. - -Mr. STERN. Operating on the request of the New Orleans office to try to -locate him, is that correct? - -Mr. HOSTY. That is correct. - -Mr. McCLOY. This has all been previously testified to? - -Mr. DULLES. I am sorry to have missed that. - -Mr. HOSTY. That is all right, Mr. Dulles, that is entirely all right. - -Mr. DULLES. Just one question. Are cases of this kind administratively -transferred by agreement between two offices, or does that have to go -up to Washington? - -Mr. HOSTY. Washington always gets a copy of these communications. They -know what we are doing. Actually the original is sent to Washington, -and a carbon is sent to the other field office. - -Mr. DULLES. But you can transfer it directly from one office to another? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. DULLES. And just notify Washington as to the possibility of its -being transferred? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right; because he is now residing and employed in our -division. There is no more needs to be done. - -Mr. DULLES. I am clear. Thank you very much. - -Mr. STERN. I think perhaps we can just complete the line of inquiry -started by Congressman Ford. Do your records or notes show when you -first reduced to writing your notes on the interviews that began on -October 29 and the last one of which occurred on November 5? - -Mr. HOSTY. I can only say that it would have been sometime between the -22d of November and the 2d of December, because it went out in a report -on the 2d of December. - -Mr. STERN. Until then they were in the form of---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Notes. - -Mr. STERN. Raw notes? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. Do you take shorthand or any other form of speedwriting? - -Mr. HOSTY. No. - -Mr. STERN. Have you preserved the notes? - -Mr. HOSTY. I don't have them with me, no; because once it is reduced to -writing then we destroy the notes. That is the procedure. - -Mr. STERN. You say you don't have them with you. Did you preserve these -notes? - -Mr. HOSTY. No; they were thrown away. - -Mr. STERN. And this is the only record now that you have---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. Of these activities? - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any record in your office as to when that was -put into type? Does your secretary have it? - -Mr. HOSTY. They might, sir. I think they might. I couldn't say for sure. - -Mr. McCLOY. I think you might look that up and see if you have any -record, and give it to us. - -Mr. HOSTY. All right, sir. - -Mr. STERN. But you are clear that it occurred after the assassination? - -Mr. HOSTY. Oh, yes, sir; positive. - -Mr. STERN. Is that usual, that you would---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Something of this nature, yes, sir; no reason to reduce it -to writing right away. - -Mr. STERN. It is true, isn't it, that some of this information had -already been---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Transmitted in letter form to New Orleans; right. - -Mr. DULLES. Prior to the assassination? - -Mr. HOSTY. Prior to the assassination; yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. That part on the second page? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right; this second paragraph starting, "On November 1, 1963, -Mrs. Ruth Paine"---- - -Representative FORD. What did you do, dictate that to a stenographer? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Representative FORD. And she typed it and it was sent officially? - -Mr. HOSTY. On the 4th of November, right, airmail letter to New Orleans. - -Mr. STERN. Would that be sent to your headquarters in Washington? - -Mr. HOSTY. Also. Excuse me, the original goes to headquarters in -Washington, a copy goes to New Orleans. It is addressed to the -headquarters. - -Mr. STERN. But the only information sent was the information in that -paragraph beginning "On November 1, 1963." - -Mr. McCLOY. But you had your original notes with you? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. McCLOY. And still intact? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. McCLOY. At the time you put this---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Because I knew I was going to get this into a report. The -next report was written, and I would put it in a report form and -destroy the notes. - -Mr. DULLES. Do we have a copy of that letter of November 4? - -Mr. HOSTY. I don't know. - -Mr. DULLES. That you sent to headquarters and to New Orleans? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. STERN. You tell us you have reviewed these two pages? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Is there anything you would like to add? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Anything you would like to correct? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. This accurately states the interviews that you covered. May -this be admitted in the record? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted, No. 830. - -(The document marked Commission Exhibit No. 830 for identification was -received in evidence.) - -Representative FORD. May I ask one question here? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Why in these notes that are now Commission Exhibit -830 didn't you mention the fact that Mrs. Paine had said that Oswald -was a Trotskyite Marxist? - -Mr. HOSTY. No; that is set forth down here, sir. - -Representative FORD. Yes; right. - -Mr. HOSTY. In this second to the last paragraph, the last line. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I ask you this, Mr. Hosty. In your contacts with Mrs. -Paine, did you get the impression that she was cooperative throughout? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Nothing that she said seemed to be inconsistent with any -facts that you knew? - -Mr. HOSTY. No. - -Senator COOPER. May I ask a question? I believe you said that all the -papers that you had respecting Lee Harvey Oswald were supplied to the -office at New Orleans. - -Mr. HOSTY. At the time they were made origin; yes, sir. In the summer -of 1963, that is correct, all the files. - -Senator COOPER. At the time that he was engaged in---- - -Mr. HOSTY. In the Fair Play for Cuba work; yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. What do you call it--Fair Play for Cuba? - -Mr. HOSTY. Fair Play for Cuba; yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Now Mr. Fain testified that he had interviewed Oswald I -think in 19---- - -Mr. HOSTY. 1962. - -Senator COOPER. 1962. - -Mr. HOSTY. That is correct. - -Senator COOPER. The year before. Mr. Quigley testified that Oswald told -him that he had married a Russian girl whose maiden name was Prossa, -and also in that file there was another statement in which Oswald had -said that he had been married, that he had married a girl in Fort -Worth. Now were all those papers available to the office in New Orleans? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. I suppose this would be a question of Mr. Quigley, -really, but if all those factors were known, it would appear that the -facts that Mr. Fain had secured, which showed the defection and his -marriage in Russia, and the fact that he had told someone else he was -married in Texas, that there would have been some further investigation -of it in New Orleans. - -Mr. HOSTY. Well, this would be something that Mr. Quigley would have to -answer. - -Mr. McCLOY. You had a record of inconsistent statements in there. - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Continuing that line, Mr. Hosty, do you recognize Commission -Exhibit 826, I now hand you? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. That is the report of---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Milton R. Kaack. - -Mr. STERN. And it is dated? - -Mr. HOSTY. October 31, 1963. I received it on November 1. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether that inconsistent statement, that -inconsistency was picked up in New Orleans at this time, in the New -Orleans office? - -Mr. HOSTY. I don't; no, sir. You mean about---- - -Mr. DULLES. About marriage. - -Mr. HOSTY. About marriage? I picked it up when I saw it. - -Mr. DULLES. At what time was that? - -Mr. HOSTY. November 1 when we got the report. - -Mr. STERN. When you reviewed Mr. Kaack's report? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. You were aware when you read that report that he had---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Lied; or was inconsistent. - -Mr. STERN. He had said in New Orleans that he had been married in Fort -Worth, married a girl named Prossa, that he had originally told the New -Orleans police that he had been born in Cuba. - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. You were aware of all these inconsistencies? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. What did these suggest to you in view of what you knew about -Oswald? - -Mr. HOSTY. I knew that he was not telling the truth in his interview -in New Orleans, because I had previously checked the background of his -wife and himself, and I knew that she was born in Russia and her name -was not Prossa. They were not married in Fort Worth, so I knew he was -not telling the truth. - -Mr. STERN. You knew that on November 1. - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. And at what time did you know of Oswald's trip to Mexico -City and his apparent appearance there at the Russian Embassy? - -Mr. HOSTY. The 25th of October. - -Mr. STERN. Had you received any---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Let's get these years right. - -Mr. HOSTY. The 25th of October 1963. - -Mr. STERN. Had you received any information about any other contacts -with Russian officials by Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. HOSTY. Not at that time. - -Mr. STERN. What other information did you have at anytime about that? - -Mr. HOSTY. On November 22, after the assassination of President -Kennedy, I was advised that our Washington field office of the FBI had -determined that he, Lee Oswald, had been in contact with the Soviet -Embassy in Washington, D.C. I learned that after the assassination. - -Mr. STERN. After the assassination? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Putting that aside for the moment, what was your evaluation -of Lee Harvey Oswald based on the work that you had done and the -reports that you had made, the information you gathered early in -November? - -Mr. HOSTY. Well, there were many questions to be resolved. I was quite -interested in determining the nature of his contact with the Soviet -Embassy in Mexico City. I had not resolved that on the 22d of November. -We were still waiting to resolve that. Prior to that, I mean that would -be the only thing---- - -Mr. STERN. What had you planned to do after November 5 about this case? - -Mr. HOSTY. Well, as I had previously stated, I have between 25 and -40 cases assigned to me at any one time. I had other matters to take -care of. I had now established that Lee Oswald was not employed in -a sensitive industry. I can now afford to wait until New Orleans -forwarded the necessary papers to me to show me I now had all the -information. It was then my plan to interview Marina Oswald in detail -concerning both herself and her husband's background. - -Mr. STERN. Had you planned any steps beyond that point? - -Mr. HOSTY. No. I would have to wait until I had talked to Marina to see -what I could determine, and from there I could make my plans. - -Mr. STERN. Did you take any action on this case between November 5 and -November 22? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. I think we can then turn to the events of November 22, and -have you tell us what transpired that day, beginning with the morning. - -Mr. HOSTY. All right. The first order of business from 8:15 to -9 o'clock the special agent in charge held the regular biweekly -conference. Now we held a conference in our office every other Friday -morning. It so happened that this was the Friday morning which we would -hold this conference, at which time the agent in charge would bring -various items to our attention. Among the items he brought to our -attention was the fact that President Kennedy would be in Dallas on -that date. - -Mr. DULLES. Who was the special agent in charge? - -Mr. HOSTY. Gordon Shanklin. Gordon L. Shanklin. - -Representative FORD. How many others besides yourself were under his -jurisdiction? - -Mr. HOSTY. About 75 agents. - -Representative FORD. Seventy-five? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes. Now only the ones at headquarters city in Dallas were -present. That would be about 40 of the agents were present at this -conference. - -Mr. Shanklin advised us, among other things, that in view of the -President's visit to Dallas, that if anyone had any indication of any -possibility of any acts of violence or any demonstrations against the -President, or Vice President, to immediately notify the Secret Service -and confirm it in writing. He had made the same statement about a week -prior at another special conference which we had held. I don't recall -the exact date. It was about a week prior. - -Mr. STERN. Did you know that there was going to be a motorcade on -November 22? - -Mr. HOSTY. I found out about 9 p.m. the night before that there was to -be a motorcade in downtown Dallas. I read it in the newspaper. That was -the first time I knew of it. - -Mr. STERN. Did you know that the motorcade would pass the School Book -Depository Building? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did you know the route of the motorcade? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Had there been any contact between you or the Dallas office -with the Secret Service on this point? - -Mr. HOSTY. On the motorcade route, sir? - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. HOSTY. No. - -Mr. DULLES. Had not been? - -Mr. HOSTY. No. - -Mr. STERN. The newspaper stories did not as far as you can recall tell -what the motorcade route would be? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes; they did. There was a description of the motorcade -route, but as I say, I didn't bother to read it in detail. I noticed -that it was coming up Main Street. That was the only thing I was -interested in, where maybe I could watch it if I had a chance. - -Mr. STERN. So that the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was working in the -Texas School Book Depository meant nothing---- - -Mr. HOSTY. No. - -Mr. STERN. In connection with the motorcade route? - -Mr. HOSTY. No. - -Mr. STERN. Did you think of him at all in connection with the -President's trip? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. Did you have any others among the cases that -were assigned to you that came to your attention in reference to the -President's visit? - -Mr. HOSTY. I did turn over one item of information to the Secret -Service on the 21st; yes, sir. I did bring some matters to their -attention. - -There were some scurrilous pamphlets circulated around Dallas on the -21st of November. You may have seen them. It was a poster of President -Kennedy with a front and a profile view saying, "Wanted for Treason." -I took those pamphlets over to the Secret Service office the morning -of the 21st. Then I assisted another agent in our division in giving -the Secret Service some information on an individual in Denton, Tex., -who had made some remarks about the President, and another member of my -squad had also given some information to the Secret Service the evening -of the 21st about the possibility of a demonstration at the Trade Mart -against President Kennedy, some picketing. - -Representative FORD. Do you recall to whom you gave this information? - -Mr. HOSTY. The one piece of information I gave, I gave to an Agent -Warner of the Secret Service. - -Representative FORD. That was the information about what? - -Mr. HOSTY. The pamphlets, the "Wanted for Treason" pamphlets. - -Representative FORD. Those are the only documents or contacts you -personally had? - -Mr. HOSTY. That I personally had, that is correct. - -The CHAIRMAN. Was it a pamphlet or a dodger? - -Mr. HOSTY. It was, I guess you would call it a dodger. - -The CHAIRMAN. Single sheet? - -Mr. HOSTY. Single sheet; yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. A single sheet, was it not? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes. - -The CHAIRMAN. Did you ever ascertain who put that out? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I never did. - -The CHAIRMAN. Did you ever investigate it? - -Mr. HOSTY. I didn't. - -The CHAIRMAN. Do you know whether your office did? - -Mr. HOSTY. I am not sure; no, sir. - -Mr. STERN. What next occurred on the 22d, Mr. Hosty? - -Mr. HOSTY. All right. After the conference that lasted until about 9 -a.m., I then left the office and joined an Army Intelligence agent, -and an agent of the Alcohol Tax Unit of the Treasury Department. We -had a conference concerning a case not related to Lee Oswald. This -conference lasted most of the morning until about 11:45. At 11:45 the -Army Intelligence agent and myself left, and walked over towards Main -Street. The motorcade was scheduled to pass down Main Street near our -office at approximately noon. I was now on my lunch hour, so I stood -and watched the motorcade go by at the corner of Field and Main Street -in Dallas. - -After the President passed by, I then went across the street, started -eating lunch. While I was eating my lunch, the waitress came up and -told me she had just heard a radio report that the President and the -Vice President had both been shot. I immediately stopped my lunch. - -Mr. STERN. The President and the Vice President? - -Mr. HOSTY. That was the earliest report, that the Vice President -had been shot too. These were the rumors. I then of course left the -lunchroom immediately and headed back for the office, which is only a -block away. I got back to the office. - -One of the supervisors told me to get a radio car and get out on the -street right away and I would get further instructions. I did that. I -got in the car and started out. I gave the signal that I was on the air -and I was told to proceed towards Parkland Hospital. Just as I got to -Parkland Hospital I got a call to return to the office immediately. - -Mr. STERN. Do you know why you were sent to Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. HOSTY. No. We were just told they wanted four cars to proceed to -Parkland Hospital to stand by for further orders. - -Mr. STERN. Were you told why you were ordered to return to the office? - -Mr. HOSTY. When I got back they told me they wanted me to start -reviewing our files to see if I could develop any information, any -leads at all on the possible assassin, to help out administratively in -the office. - -Mr. STERN. Did the case of Oswald come to your mind at that time? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. As a possible---- - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; it was approximately 1:30 that we got the report -that a police officer had been killed in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas, -and that the police were surrounding a movie theatre where the suspect -was allegedly located. - -Shortly after 2 o'clock, we received information that this man had been -captured and taken to the Dallas Police Department. One of our agents -called from the Dallas Police Department and identified this man as Lee -Harvey Oswald. I immediately recognized the name. - -Mr. STERN. What was your reaction? - -Mr. HOSTY. Shock, complete surprise. - -Mr. STERN. Because? - -Mr. HOSTY. I had no reason prior to this time to believe that he was -capable or potentially an assassin of the President of the United -States. - -Mr. STERN. What happened next? - -Mr. HOSTY. I immediately got the file on Lee Oswald, and I determined -that on the 21st of November this change of origin from New Orleans had -arrived. It had not been routed to me as yet. It apparently arrived -on the afternoon of the 21st. I got it for the first time after the -assassination. - -Mr. STERN. That is the administrative---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Administrative form showing that I was now origin, that we -now had all the information on the case. - -Mr. STERN. Did they send any other information with that? - -Mr. HOSTY. The only other thing that they sent was a photograph of Lee -Oswald taken at the New Orleans Police Department when he was arrested -during the summer of 1963. The report of Milton Kaack of the 31st had -covered everything else. - -Mr. STERN. Just to be clear, you were not waiting for this shift of -administrative responsibility before you did anything? - -Mr. HOSTY. No; I mean if there was anything else to do, I would have -gone ahead and done it. - -Mr. DULLES. Was that action in Washington or New Orleans? - -Mr. HOSTY. New Orleans. - -Mr. STERN. Had anything else arrived at your Dallas office that you -were told about at that point? - -Mr. HOSTY. Not at that point, no; nothing had arrived then. I then took -the file to the agent in charge. - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask one point here? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. From the point of view of the administration, is the New -Orleans office over the Dallas office, or are they equal? - -Mr. HOSTY. They are equal, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. They are equal? - -Mr. HOSTY. We have 55 offices. They are all equal. - -Mr. DULLES. All equal? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. There are no regional offices. I then took the file -to the agent in charge, told him that we had a case on Lee Harvey -Oswald. While I sat there he immediately called headquarters and -advised headquarters here in Washington, D.C., that Lee Harvey Oswald -was under arrest down at Dallas and had been observed shooting a police -officer. They had eyewitnesses to his killing of Officer Tippit. - -Mr. STERN. How do you know that? - -Mr. HOSTY. This had been given to us by one of our agents from the call -from the Dallas Police Department who had given the information. I -don't know who it was. I did not receive the call. - -I sat there and assisted the agent in charge while he talked to the -Bureau headquarters here. I knew the file. Of course he would need some -information. I would leaf through the file and get it for him so that -he could relay the pertinent information. - -Then sometime after that, the agent in charge instructed me to proceed -to the Dallas Police Department and to sit in on the interview of Lee -Oswald, which was apparently in progress at this time. Just prior to -my leaving, I was told that a communication had just come in that day -from the Washington field office advising that Lee Oswald had been in -contact with the Soviet Embassy in Washington, D.C. - -Mr. STERN. Were you told anything more about that? - -Mr. HOSTY. No; I mean this is the point I was given this information. -I then went and got a car and drove to the Dallas Police Department, -pulled my car into the basement garage of the Dallas Police Department, -parked my car. - -Mr. STERN. What were conditions like? - -Mr. HOSTY. Very chaotic. The press was swarming all over the police -station. There were television cameras being brought into the building. -Many people were running, coming and going. The place was a beehive of -activity. - -I parked the car, got out, and started in the door of the basement, at -which time I observed a Dallas police car, an unmarked car, drive in, -in which there were four detectives. The man sitting on the right-hand -side of the front seat next to the driver was a man I recognized as -Lieutenant Revill. He signaled me that he wanted to talk to me, at -which time he jumped out of the car at the head of the ramp and came -over towards me. The rest of the detectives in the car continued down -the ramp to be parked. - -We then proceeded in, Lieutenant Revill and I proceeded into the police -department and started up the stairs. Lieutenant Revill advised me -that--I might add he was in a very excited state--he advised me that he -had a hot lead, that he had just determined that the only employee from -the Texas School Book Depository who could not be accounted for was a -man named Lee. - -Now this conversation took place at approximately 3 p.m., about an -hour after Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested by the Dallas Police -Department. I told Lieutenant Revill that Lee Harvey Oswald had been -arrested about an hour ago, that he was an employee of the Texas School -Book Depository, and that he was the man who had defected to Russia and -had returned to the United States in 1962. - -Now either Lieutenant Revill--I don't recall if he made a statement -doubting that Oswald was the one who assassinated the President, or -whether it was just a look of doubt on his face, but there was doubt -came into Lieutenant Revill's--at this time I stated to him that Lee -Oswald was the main suspect in this case. - -Now this conversation took place running up the stairs from the -basement to the third floor. At this time the level of noise was -very high. As I said, there were many press representatives, TV -representatives, curious bystanders, police officers, everybody running -all over the place. - -It was not too much unlike Grand Central Station at rush hour, maybe -like the Yankee Stadium during the world series games, quite noisy. We -got to the head of the stairs and I left Lieutenant Revill and went -into Captain Fritz' office. - -Mr. STERN. Was anyone else with you and Lieutenant Revill as you came -up the stairs, as you recall? - -Mr. HOSTY. As I say, the place was swarming with people. Just the two -of us were going up the stairs together. My conversation was with -Lieutenant Revill only. - -Mr. STERN. I now show you a document marked for identification -Commission 831, a letter dated April 27, 1964, from Director Hoover to -Mr. Rankin, the General Counsel of this Commission, having attached a -one-page copy of a newspaper article and an affidavit. Do you recognize -this letter? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. STERN. Where have you seen it? - -Mr. HOSTY. I have seen the file copy of this letter in the FBI files. - -Mr. STERN. Do you recognize the newspaper article which is the first -attachment to this letter? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. It appeared in the Dallas Morning News on April -24, 1964, I believe. - -Mr. STERN. And the attachment after this is? - -Mr. HOSTY. My affidavit. - -Mr. STERN. Your affidavit of five pages? - -Mr. HOSTY. Of five pages, bearing my signature. - -Mr. STERN. Now tell us what the reason for your making this affidavit -was. - -Mr. HOSTY. It was to refute the story that appeared in the Dallas -Morning News on April 24, 1964, to set the record straight as to what -actually did take place in my conversation with Lieutenant Revill. - -Mr. STERN. What did that story state? - -Mr. HOSTY. It stated in substance, alleged that I was aware that Lee -Harvey Oswald was capable of assassinating the President of the United -States, but did not dream he would do it. - -Mr. STERN. Did you say that? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. I want to state for the record at this time that I -unequivocally deny ever having made the statement to Lieutenant Revill -or to anyone else that, "We knew Lee Harvey Oswald was capable of -assassinating the President of the United States, we didn't dream he -would do it." - -I also want to state at this time that I made no statement to -Lieutenant Revill or to any other individual at any time that I or -anyone else in the FBI knew that Lee Harvey Oswald was capable of -assassinating the President of the United States or possessed any -potential for violence. - -Prior to the assassination of the President of the United States, I had -no information indicating violence on the part of Lee Harvey Oswald. I -wish the record to so read. - -Mr. STERN. The newspaper story also mentioned another officer of the -Dallas police force, V. J. "Jackie" Brian. - -Mr. HOSTY. I know him as Jackie Brian. - -Mr. STERN. Do you know this officer? - -Mr. HOSTY. I know him to see him. I don't know him too well. - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall whether or not he was present when you had -your conversation with Lieutenant Revill? - -Mr. HOSTY. I don't recall him being present. I was addressing my -remarks to Lieutenant Revill. - -Mr. STERN. Have you heard that there was a rumor to the effect of this -story at any time before this newspaper article appeared? - -Mr. HOSTY. About 2 weeks prior I heard a rumor, but I didn't know -exactly what the story was all about. I did hear a rumor. - -Mr. STERN. What was the tone and tenor of the rumor? - -Mr. HOSTY. That I had made some statement concerning Oswald's -assassinating the President. I wasn't clear. I was never given the -exact wording. It involved my conversation with Lieutenant Revill. - -Mr. STERN. Have you talked to Lieutenant Revill since this news story -appeared? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; not since the news story appeared. - -Mr. STERN. To Chief Curry? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. To any supervising official of the Dallas police force? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. To any newspaper reporter for any Dallas newspaper or -otherwise? - -Mr. HOSTY. They had contacted me for comment, and I have had no comment -other than the first person who called me, I denied the story. Since -then I have had no comment on instructions from headquarters. - -Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed your affidavit in preparation for your -testimony here today? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Is there anything you would like to add to it other than -what you have already said? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. I think it speaks for itself. - -Mr. STERN. Any change you would like to make in it? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Will you put this on the record, please? - -Mr. Rankin, is there anything in the record of the Commission showing -that Lieutenant Revill made a report to his superior officers -concerning this statement that is alleged to have been made by Agent -Hosty in this newspaper article? - -Mr. RANKIN. The only thing that we have is this affidavit which you -will note is Commission Exhibit 709. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And it bears the date November 22, 1963, at the top, and -is sworn to as of the 7th day of April 1964. That is what Chief Curry -testified he received from Lieutenant Revill. - -The CHAIRMAN. Has Lieutenant Revill been a witness before the -Commission or has he made a statement, a deposition of any kind? - -Mr. RANKIN. He has not been a witness before the Commission. - -Mr. REDLICH. He was talked to in Dallas. - -Mr. RANKIN. He was a deposition witness. - -The CHAIRMAN. When was that? - -Mr. RANKIN. I will have to check that. - -The CHAIRMAN. Was it before or after this affidavit? - -Mr. RANKIN. I will have to check that, Mr. Chief Justice, to be sure. - -The CHAIRMAN. Did he in that deposition state that Agent Hosty had made -such a statement to him? - -Mr. RANKIN. I haven't examined the deposition. I don't know. We have -the deposition now, but I have not examined it. - -The CHAIRMAN. Do you know, Professor Redlich? - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chief Justice, I asked that question, and the -information I have is that he was not questioned about this particular -allegation. He was questioned on other matters. - -Representative FORD. Did he volunteer that information? - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Is it in the deposition at all? - -Mr. REDLICH. To the best of my knowledge, it is not, Mr. Chief Justice. - -Mr. McCLOY. Don't we have the deposition here? Can't we get it? - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to be sure to check that -before we have that on the record. I will report by morning, if that is -all right, and be sure of it. - -The CHAIRMAN. What was the date of this newspaper article? It isn't -dated here. - -Mr. STERN. The cover letter, Mr. Chief Justice, states that it appeared -on April 24, 1964. - -The CHAIRMAN. Do I understand that Chief Curry said that no statement -of that kind had been made by Lieutenant Revill at or about the time -the statement was supposed to have been made by Agent Hosty? - -Mr. RANKIN. I don't think his testimony was in that form, Mr. Chief -Justice. It was in the form that this was given to him and there wasn't -any indication that it was given as of the date of November 22 in his -testimony. - -The CHAIRMAN. I should like to see Lieutenant Revill's deposition. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Redlich has gone out for it. - -The CHAIRMAN. We won't delay that now. We will proceed. Go right ahead, -Mr. Stern. - -Mr. STERN. What happened next? - -Mr. HOSTY. As I said, I left Lieutenant Revill. I entered the office -of Capt. Will Fritz. After a short delay, Agent James W. Bookhout and -myself entered the inner office of Capt. Will Fritz of the homicide -section, Dallas Police Department, where Lee Harvey Oswald was being -questioned. - -Mr. STERN. I show you a two-page document marked Commission No. 832 for -identification. Can you identify that? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. This is an interview form which I made for my -interview with Lee Harvey Oswald on the 22d of November 1963. It was -dictated as the form will indicate, on the 23d of November 1963. - -Mr. STERN. Let me ask you there, Mr. Hosty, about your practice in -reducing to formal form your notes of interviews. This happened the -next day? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. Is that faster than usual because of the circumstances? - -Mr. HOSTY. Because of the circumstances. We have to reduce them to -writing within 5 days. - -Mr. STERN. In 5 days? - -Mr. HOSTY. Five working days. - -Mr. STERN. Did you retain the notes of this? - -Mr. HOSTY. No. After the interview is reduced to writing, I get it -back and proofread it. My notes are then destroyed because this is the -record. - -Mr. STERN. And in this particular instance did you destroy your notes -of this? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Now you say that you are required to reduce your notes of an -interview to writing within 5 working days. - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. Did that happen with respect to the interviews you conducted -on October 29, November 1, and November 5? - -Mr. HOSTY. To make this a little clearer, this would be an interview of -a subject, not of a witness, unless this witness has something that was -quite pertinent to the investigation. - -Routine-type matters do not have to be put on these interview forms, -but pertinent interviews would be. Now everything in this case after -the assassination was declared to be pertinent. All interviews, -regardless of how insignificant, were to be put on these forms. - -Mr. STERN. But the interviews you conducted at the beginning of -November and the end of October were not within this rule? - -Mr. HOSTY. No; because they were not an interview of the subject or -anything that contained anything of major importance. - -Mr. STERN. Do you yourself destroy the notes? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall specifically destroying the notes of your -interview? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; in the wastebasket. - -Mr. STERN. Your interview of Oswald, on November 22, you put the notes -in the wastebasket? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. Do you recall specifically what you did with the notes of -your interviews of October 29, November 1, and November 5? - -Mr. HOSTY. After I reduced them to writing, such as I did here, and I -got the form back, I proofread it, then I threw them away. - -Mr. STERN. And you testified that the notes of your end of -October--early November interviews were transcribed after November 22, -is that correct? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. STERN. Were the notes destroyed after you transcribed those -interviews, also after November 22? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes. - -Mr. STERN. Did you give any consideration to retaining the notes in -view of the turn that the case had taken? - -Mr. HOSTY. No. - -Mr. STERN. The intervening assassination? - -Mr. HOSTY. No; because this is the record and the notes would not be -as good as this record, because the notes are not written out fully as -this is. It would just be abbreviations and things of that type. - -Mr. STERN. And you received no instructions about retaining notes? - -Mr. HOSTY. No; we had no instructions. We were following the same rule -we had always followed. - -Mr. STERN. Why don't you tell us now, turning to your memorandum of the -November 22 interview of Lee Harvey Oswald, what transpired from the -time you first entered Captain Fritz' office. - -Mr. HOSTY. As this interview form will show, the interview commenced at -3:15 p.m. I am certain of that time because I checked my wristwatch, -and Agent Bookhout checked my wristwatch. We both agreed on the time, -3:15. We came in and identified ourselves as agents of the FBI. I told -Oswald my name and he reacted violently. - -Mr. STERN. How do you mean? - -Mr. HOSTY. To both Agent Bookhout and myself. He adopted an extremely -hostile attitude towards the FBI. - -Mr. STERN. Was it the FBI or the name Hosty? - -Mr. HOSTY. Both. He reacted to the fact that we were FBI, and he made -the remark to me, "Oh, so you are Hosty. I've heard about you." - -He then started to cuss at us, and so forth, and I tried to talk to him -to calm him down. The more I talked to him the worse he got, so I just -stopped talking to him, just sat back in the corner and pretty soon he -stopped his ranting and raving. - -Mr. STERN. What was he saying? Please be specific. - -Mr. HOSTY. Well, he said, "I am going to fix you FBI," and he made some -derogatory remarks about the Director and about FBI agents in general. -I don't specifically recall the exact wording he used. - -Representative FORD. Had this been the attitude that existed prior to -you and Bookhout coming into the---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Apparently not; apparently not. I couldn't say because I -wasn't in the room. We walked into the room. I immediately identified -myself, told him I was with the FBI, and was a law-enforcement officer, -and anything he said to me could be used against him. He did not have -to talk to us. - -Senator COOPER. Can you describe the tone of his voice and his manner? - -Mr. HOSTY. I beg your pardon, sir? - -Senator COOPER. Can you describe the tone of his voice? - -Mr. HOSTY. He was highly excited. He was very surly, I think would be -about the best way to describe him, very surly; and he was curt in his -answers to us, snarled at us. That would be his general attitude. - -Representative FORD. Did he use profanity? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. I can't recall any specific statements he made, -however. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did he complain that you had been abusing or harassing his -wife in anyway? - -Mr. HOSTY. He made the statement, "If you want to talk to me don't -bother my wife. Come and see me." He didn't say that I had abused his -wife in any manner, and I hadn't. He did criticize me for talking to -her. He said, "Come talk to me if you want to talk to me." - -Representative FORD. Is that why he knew your name, because of your -conversations with her? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes; apparently. - -Mr. STERN. Had you ever seen Oswald before? - -Mr. HOSTY. Not until that time. That was the first time I had seen him. - -Senator COOPER. Can you remember what he said about the FBI -specifically? - -Mr. HOSTY. He called us gestapo, secret police, we were harassing -people. It was along that line. I don't recall the exact wording. - -Mr. STERN. Was he handcuffed at this time? - -Mr. HOSTY. He was handcuffed behind him. After he calmed down he asked -Captain Fritz if they could remove the handcuffs. Captain Fritz ordered -one of his detectives to remove them from the rear, and they handcuffed -him in front. - -Mr. STERN. This happened right after you came into the room? - -Mr. HOSTY. Shortly after we came in the room. - -Mr. STERN. Before or after his outburst? - -Mr. HOSTY. After his outburst; after he had calmed down. - -Mr. STERN. Please continue. - -Mr. HOSTY. Captain Fritz actually conducted the interview. Agent -Bookhout and myself sat back in the corner and observed. Captain Fritz -asked Oswald if he had ever owned the rifle. He denied he had ever -owned a rifle. He said that he had seen the superintendent of the -School Book Depository with a rifle in his office a couple of days -before the assassination, but that he had never had a rifle in the -building. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been to the Soviet -Union and resided there for 3 years, and he had many friends in the -Soviet Union. Captain Fritz then showed him a piece of paper which had -"Fair Play for Cuba" on it, and Oswald admitted to Captain Fritz that -he was secretary for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans a -few months ago. - -He told Captain Fritz that the Fair Play for Cuba Committee had its -headquarters in New York City. Captain Fritz then showed Oswald a -marksman's medal from the Marine Corps, and Oswald admitted that this -was his medal, that he had received a sharpshooter's medal while in the -Marine Corps. - -Mr. McCLOY. Was it a sharpshooter's or a marksman's? There are two -different types, you know. - -Mr. HOSTY. I believe it was a sharpshooter, sir. He then told Captain -Fritz that he had been living at 1026 North Beckley, that is in Dallas, -Tex., at 1026 North Beckley under the name O. H. Lee and not under his -true name. - -Oswald admitted that he was present in the Texas School Book Depository -Building on the 22d of November 1963, where he had been employed since -the 15th of October. Oswald told Captain Fritz that he was a laborer in -this building and had access to the entire building. It had offices on -the first and second floors with storage on third, fourth, fifth and -sixth floors. - -Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon -on the 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone -and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his -lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President -Kennedy passed the building. - -He was asked why he left the School Book Depository that day, and he -stated that in all the confusion he was certain that there would be no -more work for the rest of the day, that everybody was too upset, there -was too much confusion, so he just decided that there would be no work -for the rest of the day and so he went home. He got on a bus and went -home. He went to his residence on North Beckley, changed his clothes, -and then went to a movie. - -Captain Fritz asked him if he always carried a pistol when he went -to the movie, and he said he carried it because he felt like it. He -admitted that he did have a pistol on him at the time of his arrest, in -this theatre, in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas. He further admitted that -he had resisted arrest and had received a bump and a cut as a result -of his resisting of arrest. He then denied that he had killed Officer -Tippit or President Kennedy. - -Mr. STERN. The memorandum says, "Oswald frantically denied shooting"---- - -Mr. HOSTY. It should be emphatically, I believe, rather than -frantically. I think this probably should be "emphatically denied." - -Mr. STERN. Is this your memorandum? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. It is signed or initialed both by you and by Mr. Bookhout. - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. The procedure is that when there are two agents -involved, they both must approve it, so there can be no discrepancies. - -Mr. STERN. But you dictated it. - -Mr. HOSTY. I dictated it and he read it and we both approved it. - -Mr. STERN. Have you been over it recently in preparation for your -testimony? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Is it accurate? Is there anything you would like to add to -it? - -Mr. HOSTY. I think it is correct as it stands. - -Mr. McCLOY. I didn't hear you repeating your testimony that he denied -ever having been in Mexico. - -Mr. HOSTY. Oh, yes; he was being questioned about his activities -outside of the United States, where he had been outside of the United -States. He told Captain Fritz that he had only been to Mexico to visit -at Tijuana on the border, and then he did admit having been in Russia. - -Mr. McCLOY. He only admitted to having been at Tijuana in Mexico? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. McCLOY. Not to Mexico City. - -Mr. HOSTY. Not to Mexico City; that is right. - -Representative FORD. There was no recording made of this interrogation? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; it was notes I took. Agent Bookhout and I took -notes, and we dictated from the notes the next day. - -Mr. STERN. Did you ask him any questions? - -Mr. HOSTY. No; like I say, he was acting in such a hostile condition -towards us that we did not. This was Captain Fritz' interview anyway. -We were just sitting in as observers. - -Mr. STERN. Did you tell Captain Fritz at this time any of the -information you had about Oswald, about his trip to Mexico, for example? - -Mr. HOSTY. No. - -Mr. STERN. About his being in touch with the Russian authorities -seeking a visa? - -Mr. HOSTY. No. - -Mr. STERN. About his previous residence in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. HOSTY. Oswald himself told Captain Fritz of this. I didn't have to. -Oswald came right out and told him. - -Mr. STERN. About the affair in New Orleans and his arrest there? - -Mr. HOSTY. No. - -Mr. STERN. Did you subsequently tell Captain Fritz? - -Mr. HOSTY. No; I didn't tell Captain Fritz; no. - -Mr. STERN. Was any of this information provided to the Dallas police as -far as you know? - -Mr. HOSTY. I provided it to Lieutenant Revill earlier, as I pointed -out. He would have been the person I would have furnished this -information to as the head of the intelligence section. He would be the -logical and correct person to give this information to. - -Mr. STERN. Was that the extent of your advice to the Dallas police? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you tell Chief Curry that you had a file? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I haven't talked to Chief Curry in several years. -Of course I don't deal with him too much on a chief level. - -Mr. STERN. Wouldn't it be difficult for Lieutenant Revill to have -gotten this information from you under the conditions that you -described, running up the stairway and the rest of it? Do you think he -heard enough of this? - -Mr. HOSTY. Well, that is true, he might not have. But you see -Oswald then proceeded to tell himself, he told the police all this -information, so there was no point in me repeating it when he himself, -Oswald, had furnished it directly to the police. - -Mr. McCLOY. But you did tell Revill that you had a file on Oswald? - -Mr. HOSTY. No; I didn't tell him I had a file; no, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. You did not? - -Mr. HOSTY. Just as I related here in the affidavit. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hosty, I think the answer to this question is -implicit in your testimony, but I would just like to ask it directly. -Did you or anyone in the FBI to your knowledge for compensation or in -any manner whatsoever use Oswald as an informant in any way, shape or -form? - -Mr. HOSTY. I have previously furnished a sworn affidavit to this -Commission to the effect that I had never seen or talked to Lee Harvey -Oswald prior to the 22d of November 1963. I had never made payments -of any kind to him, and, in addition, I had never made any attempt to -develop him as an informant or source of information. I have made a -sworn affidavit to that effect. - -The CHAIRMAN. Your answer to my question then is "No." - -Mr. HOSTY. Correct. - -Mr. STERN. This might be a good opportunity, Mr. Chairman, to have -him identify this affidavit. I show you from Commission Exhibit 825 a -one-page affidavit. Can you---- - -Mr. HOSTY. This is my affidavit. This is my signature. - -Mr. STERN. And it was made when? - -Mr. HOSTY. On the 5th day of February 1964. - -Mr. STERN. Why don't you read that? - -Mr. HOSTY. "I, James P. Hosty, Jr., Special Agent of the Federal Bureau -of Investigation since January 21, 1952, having been duly sworn, make -the following statement: - -"At no time prior to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy did -I ever see or talk to Lee Harvey Oswald. I have never made payments of -any kind to him. In addition, I have never made any attempt to develop -him as an informant or source of information." - -Signed, James P. Hosty, Jr., Special Agent, Federal Bureau of -Investigation. - -Mr. STERN. Mr. Chairman, may we have admitted Exhibits 831 and 832, -which Mr. Hosty has identified, the letter from the Director of the FBI -enclosing Mr. Hosty's affidavit as 831, and 832, which is his two-page -memorandum on the interview? - -The CHAIRMAN. That may be admitted with those numbers. - -(The items marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 831 and 832 for -identification were received in evidence.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Is that all, Mr. Stern? - -Mr. STERN. There are a few other points. - -The CHAIRMAN. Let's hurry them along. - -Mr. STERN. To conclude that last point, Mr. Hosty, do you have any -knowledge of anyone else in the government service, either FBI or any -other branch---- - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. That tried or was successful in recruiting Lee Harvey Oswald -as an informant or employee or agent? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did you see Oswald again after the interview that Captain -Fritz conducted? - -Mr. HOSTY. No. - -Mr. STERN. What did you do when this interview concluded? - -Mr. HOSTY. As I stated here, he was removed from Captain Fritz' office -at 4:05 p.m. Here again I checked my wristwatch, so I am certain the -time is correct. - -I then went to the outer office of Capt. Will Fritz and remained there -until approximately 8 p.m. that evening. - -Mr. STERN. You did not attend any of the lineups? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did you talk to any member of the Secret Service at this -time? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; at approximately 6 p.m. on the 22d of November -1963, Special Agent in Charge Forrest V. Sorrels of the United States -Secret Service entered Captain Fritz' office with about five or six -Secret Service agents. He then proceeded to interview Lee Harvey -Oswald, I was not present during this interview. - -I did see him take Lee Oswald to the rear of Captain Fritz' outer -office and interview Lee Oswald. It appeared to me that Forrest Sorrels -of the Secret Service had appeared for the purpose of representing the -United States Secret Service in this investigation. I was aware at this -time that the FBI did not have jurisdiction over this matter, that -is, the assassination of the President of the United States, and that -if any Federal agency did have jurisdiction, it would be the United -States Secret Service. As I later determined, no Federal agency had -jurisdiction over this assassination. - -When Forrest Sorrels concluded his interview with Lee Oswald, I called -him aside and advised him that there was some additional information on -Lee Oswald which the FBI headquarters in Washington could furnish to -the headquarters of the Secret Service in Washington, and that there -were two items, and that I did not feel that I could give them to him -directly since they were secret in nature. - -Mr. STERN. Was anyone else present during this conversation? - -Mr. HOSTY. As I said, this took place in the outer office of Capt. Will -Fritz. There were about 30 or 40 people milling around out there. There -were three or four Texas Rangers. There were perhaps a dozen Dallas -police officers. There were, as I said, five or six Secret Service -agents. - -There were three other FBI agents besides myself, various clerical -personnel from the police department who were assigned to the homicide -division. I recognized two postal inspectors. I directed this -conversation to Mr. Sorrels. I called him to one side and directed this -to him directly. - -Mr. STERN. Did you repeat the same information to anyone else later on? - -Mr, HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. What did you have in mind? What were the two pieces of -information? - -Mr. HOSTY. The two pieces of information I had in mind were the -contacts that Lee Oswald had with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City, -and the contact that he had had with the Soviet Embassy in Washington, -D.C. - -Mr. STERN. Were you in touch with your Dallas office from the police -headquarters regularly during the evening of the 22d? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes. I went out and made phone calls to them, advised them -of my interview and how things were going. - -Mr. STERN. Did you make any calls directly to Bureau headquarters in -Washington? - -Mr. HOSTY. I didn't; no, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Were you advised at any time on the 22d after you left -your office of other information, any other information with regard -to Lee Harvey Oswald that had been supplied by Bureau headquarters in -Washington through your Dallas office? - -Mr. HOSTY. No; that was all, just what I previously related. - -Mr. STERN. Just what you mentioned, nothing else came through? - -Mr. HOSTY. Nothing else. - -Mr. STERN. Were you in the police headquarters on Saturday, the 23d, or -Sunday, the 24th, at all? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. Did you have any further discussions with Lieutenant Revill -that weekend? - -Mr. HOSTY. No. - -Mr. STERN. At any time until now? - -Mr. HOSTY. I have had discussions with him on two occasions since -then. We did not discuss this matter of the 22d of November, this -conversation of the 22d. - -Mr. STERN. Did you discuss the assassination with him on either of -these two occasions that you recall? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. STERN. The only conversation you had with him was going up -the stairway from the basement to the third floor of the police -headquarters on November 22? - -Mr. HOSTY. That is correct. - -Representative FORD. Do you recall the dates of these two subsequent -meetings with him? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I don't. Just the first time was maybe in January, -January sometimes, possibly February, and that was at his office. Then -he came to our office maybe in March. I just don't recall the dates. - -Representative FORD. But those visits were on matters not at all -related to the assassination or the events surrounding it? - -Mr. HOSTY. Actually, when he came to our office he was coming to talk -to another agent, and I just said "Hello" to him, and we didn't discuss -anything official. I just nodded "hello" to him, "How are you doing?" -When I went to his office it was in connection with another matter. - -Mr. STERN. But on neither occasion did you discuss the assassination or -the events surrounding it? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Have you any further questions, Congressman Ford? - -Representative FORD. What did you do on Saturday and Sunday following, -in rough outline, involving the assassination, if anything? - -Mr. HOSTY. I worked practically round the clock Saturday night. I -didn't go to bed at all, as I recall, Friday night and Saturday. I was -covering various leads in connection with the assassination, talking to -people who knew Lee Oswald. - -I talked to Mrs. Paine, to give you an example, the first thing -Saturday morning. I talked to various people that knew Oswald, -just covering general investigative leads in connection with the -assassination, like everyone else was. But I wasn't working at the -police department. - -Representative FORD. You weren't at the police department at all on -Saturday or Sunday? - -Mr. HOSTY. That is correct. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. McCloy, have you anything? - -Mr. McCLOY. I noticed you mentioned Lieutenant Revill and Jackie Brian. -There is another name mentioned here, Gordon Shanklin. - -Mr. HOSTY. He is the agent in charge of the Dallas FBI Office. - -Mr. McCLOY. It doesn't say so in this article, but it may be in this -by implication. You said nothing or anything that is comparable to -the alleged statement, "We have a suspect who is capable of the -assassination of the President, but I never dreamed of it," to your -colleague Gordon Shanklin? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. When you went to talk to Mrs. Paine, did you go over the -premises then with her? Did she, for example, show you where Oswald is -alleged to have kept the rifle in the garage? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I didn't do that, no. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you, in the course of your followup leads, talk to Mr. -Truly? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Can you tell us what transpired between you and Mr. Truly? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; I talked to him about---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Is this anticipating something you have got? - -Mr. STERN. No. - -Mr. HOSTY. This interview took place quite a bit after the -assassination. I did talk to Mr. Truly about I believe it was in -January or February of 1964, and it concerned the time that he, Mr. -Truly, was aware of the fact that there would be a parade through -downtown Dallas. And his recollection was that he was not aware of -the fact that the motorcade would pass in front of his building until -shortly before noon on the 21st when an article appeared in the Dallas -Times Herald. - -Now the Dallas Times Herald appears on the street at approximately -10:30 a.m., and Mr. Truly said shortly before noon someone from his -office saw this article and mentioned it to the office employees and -said they all became excited, and this was apparently the first time -anyone at the Texas School Book Depository realized the motorcade was -going to pass directly in front of their building. - -Representative FORD. This was Thursday? - -Mr. HOSTY. Thursday before, yes. It was shortly before noon. - -Representative FORD. The 21st? - -Mr. HOSTY. On the 21st of November, yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. But according to your recollection of what he said, all -the employees were excited and became aware of the fact that the -motorcade---- - -Mr. HOSTY. At that time. - -Mr. McCLOY. At that time was going to pass the School Book Depository. - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you notice that Oswald said in the course of his -interview by Captain Fritz that he had not had a rifle but he had seen -a rifle in the possession of Mr. Truly? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you interrogate Mr. Truly about that? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, I didn't. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you know whether anyone else did? - -Mr. HOSTY. I can't say for certain, no. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. McCLOY. Back on the record. - -Do you know, Mr. Rankin, whether or not Mr. Truly has been interviewed -on this subject? - -Mr. RANKIN. It has been reported to me by the staff that he has. - -Mr. McCLOY. Does he deny it, do you know? - -Mr. RANKIN. He denies it. - -Mr. McCLOY. He denies it? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. But we have no deposition from him in that regard as yet. - -Mr. BELIN. No; we do not. - -Senator COOPER. May I ask first as to Exhibit No. 830, you have it? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Does that represent statements made to you? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. On November 5, did Mrs. Ruth Paine tell you that she -thought Lee Oswald was an illogical person? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. And that he admitted to her being a Trotskyite -Communist? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Did you know that he had engaged in this Fair Play for -Cuba demonstration in New Orleans and had been arrested? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. You were told on November 1 that he was employed at the -Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Had you checked there to see if he was employed? - -Mr. HOSTY. I made a pretext interview on the 4th. - -Senator COOPER. On what day? - -Mr. HOSTY. The 4th of November. - -Senator COOPER. Considering that he was a defector, you knew he was a -defector? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. And considering that he had been engaged in this -demonstration in New Orleans, and the statement that Mrs. Paine had -made to you, did it occur to you at all that he was a potentially -dangerous person? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Why? - -Mr. HOSTY. There is no indication from something of that type that he -would commit a violent act. This is not the form that a person of that -type would necessarily take. This would not in any way indicate to me -that he was capable of violence. - -Senator COOPER. I believe you testified that you didn't know the route -of the---- - -Mr. HOSTY. That is correct, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Of the procession which passed the Texas School Book -Depository? - -Mr. HOSTY. That is correct, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Did it occur to you to communicate this information to -the Secret Service or the Dallas police about Oswald? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; there would be no reason for me to give it to them. - -Mr. McCLOY. You did know he was lying though, didn't you? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Don't you think the combination of the fact that you knew -that he was lying and that he was a defector and that he had this -record with the Fair Play for Cuba, that he might be involved in some -intrigue that would be if not necessarily violent, he was a dangerous -security risk? - -Mr. HOSTY. He was a security risk of a sort, but not the type of person -who would engage in violence. That would be the indication. - -Representative FORD. What are the criteria for a man being a potential -violent man? Is this a subjective test? - -Mr. HOSTY. You mean to the point where we would report him to the -Secret Service? - -Representative FORD. Yes. - -Mr. HOSTY. It is instructions we had as of the 22d of November, we had -to have some indication that the person planned to take some action -against the safety of the President of the United States or the Vice -President. - -Representative FORD. How do you evaluate that? Do you have any criteria? - -Mr. HOSTY. No; at that time it was that there had to be some actual -indication of plan or a plot. - -Representative FORD. There had to be a conspiracy of some sort? - -Mr. HOSTY. Well, or a single person doing something if anyone was -going to take any action against the safety of the President or Vice -President. - -Representative FORD. I think you testified earlier that at the time of -the motorcade you were at your lunch hour. - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Representative FORD. And were actually eating lunch? When a -President visits a community, is the FBI or its people assigned any -responsibilities as far as the security of the President is concerned? - -Mr. HOSTY. Prior to November 22, I know of no incidents where the FBI -was called in to help the Secret Service, to my knowledge. - -Representative FORD. And particularly on this day none of the---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Definitely not. - -Representative FORD. Of the people in the FBI in the Dallas area were -given any assignments? - -Mr. HOSTY. That is correct. - -Representative FORD. For the security of the President? - -Mr. HOSTY. That is correct. - -Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Hosty, let me ask you this: Suppose you had known that -that motorcade was going to go past the School Book Depository, do you -think your action would have been any different? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; it wouldn't have been any different. - -Mr. McCLOY. Even though you knew that he was located there? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. McCLOY. And that he was a defector? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -The CHAIRMAN. Senator. - -Senator COOPER. Have you received any evidence that any person other -than Lee Oswald was involved in the assassination of President Kennedy? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I have no knowledge of anyone else. - -Senator COOPER. Did you know anything about the attempt on General -Walker's life? - -Mr. HOSTY. I have read in the newspapers about the attempt on General -Walker's life; yes. - -Senator COOPER. Your office was not connected with an investigation of -that? - -Mr. HOSTY. No; this was not a matter under the jurisdiction of the FBI. -It was under the jurisdiction of the Dallas Police Department. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hosty, you told us what your instructions were -concerning dangerous persons as of the 22d of November. Have they been -changed? - -Mr. HOSTY. I think Mr. Belmont will bring that up tomorrow if it be all -right. Yes; they have been. - -The CHAIRMAN. You will be sure to ask him that to get that from him. - -Are there any other questions, gentlemen? - -Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Hosty, are you still engaged in any aspects of the -assassination? - -Mr. HOSTY. Oh, yes. I am still involved in the investigation of it, -what investigation we still have. - -Mr. McCLOY. And any odds and ends that come up? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Mr. McCLOY. You are still in the process of investigating? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. I would like to ask Professor Redlich, did you find -anything in the deposition of lieutenant, what was his name? - -Mr. REDLICH. Revill. - -The CHAIRMAN. Revill, on this subject? - -Mr. REDLICH. No, sir. Lieutenant Revill was deposed on Tuesday, March -31, by Mr. Hubert of the Commission's staff. - -The CHAIRMAN. What date? - -Mr. REDLICH. March 31, 1964. The deposition consisted almost entirely -of questions relating to Mr. Revill's responsibilities in connection -with the investigation of the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald, and during -the course of that interrogation there is nothing at all on the matter -which was the subject of Commission Exhibit No. 709. - -The CHAIRMAN. Is there any reference in his testimony to his going up -the stairs with Agent Hosty on the 22d of November? - -Mr. REDLICH. No, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Nothing concerning that particular time in the police -station? - -Mr. REDLICH. No; there was not. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well. That is all. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I answered Mr. McCloy's question in -error about Mr. Truly. Mr. Belin tells me that he examined the FBI -statement, and there is a statement by Mr. Truly in regard to two -rifles in which he explains it, as he says, innocently. Mr. Belin, -would you tell for the record what that is? - -Mr. BELIN. I would almost rather wait until tomorrow morning to have -the FBI reports before the Commission, if I can. I think it is a friend -brought a rifle. - -The CHAIRMAN. It would be better to have the report itself here. - -Mr. BELIN. I will have that for the Commission tomorrow morning, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. I think, Mr. Hosty, you have probably answered this -question which is very closely related to that which Senator Cooper -asked you. You testified that you were continuing your investigation of -various aspects of this case. You have not thus far at least unearthed -anything which could be called in the nature of a conspiracy? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. In connection with this assassination? - -Mr. HOSTY. You mean involving someone else? - -Mr. McCLOY. Someone else? - -Mr. HOSTY. No. - -Mr. McCLOY. Other than---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Lee Oswald. - -Mr. McCLOY. Oswald. And that would cover certainly any connection with -Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. HOSTY. That is correct. - -Mr. McCLOY. Have you ever interviewed Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all I have. - -The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions? - -Congressman Ford? - -Representative FORD. I think earlier, Mr. Hosty, you indicated that the -case of Oswald was under your jurisdiction? - -Mr. HOSTY. Was assigned to me; yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Assigned to you? - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. As I recall the language you indicated that -documents or papers or reports came to you? - -Mr. HOSTY. Correct. - -Representative FORD. Would this go through the special agent in charge -of the Dallas area or what would it be? - -Mr. HOSTY. Here would be the procedure. The mail would be received at -the chief clerk's office. They would then match it up with the proper -file, and take it to the supervisor in question. - -Representative FORD. Who is that? - -Mr. HOSTY. Mr. Kenneth Howe was supervisor of the internal security -squad, and he would get it first, would read it, and then route it to -the agent to whom the case was assigned. - -Representative FORD. So Mr. Howe---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Was knowledgeable about the Oswald case? - -Mr. HOSTY. Right. - -Representative FORD. Now how knowledgeable would a person in that -capacity be about this case? - -Mr. HOSTY. Well, I might point out where I would have 25 to 40 -cases that I was working on, he might have 500 to 700 cases he was -supervising, so obviously he couldn't pay as much attention to the -details of the case as the agent to whom it was assigned. - -Representative FORD. He saw all the documents that came in or went out -involving this case? - -Mr. HOSTY. This case and many other cases. - -Representative FORD. Did you and Mr. Howe ever discuss the Oswald case -prior to the assassination? - -Mr. HOSTY. I have no recollection of any discussion of the case; no. - -Representative FORD. Is this unusual or is this typical? - -Mr. HOSTY. There would be a discussion if in my opinion there was -something I wanted to consult him on or if in his opinion there was -something he wanted to consult me on. If he thought I was handling the -case all right, and I had no questions, we would not discuss the case. - -Representative FORD. Your recollection is that in this instance you and -Mr. Howe had no such discussion? - -Mr. HOSTY. That is my recollection. - -Mr. McCLOY. After this one interview in which you participated at least -in part with Lieutenant or Captain Fritz, I forgot what his rank is---- - -Mr. HOSTY. Captain Fritz. - -Mr. McCLOY. Captain Fritz, did you ever interview or were you ever a -participant in an interview of Oswald thereafter? - -Mr. HOSTY. No; this was the only time I participated. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you return to the police headquarters the next day? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. You weren't there when Oswald was shot? - -Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Hosty. - -Mr. HOSTY. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you for your help. We are very glad to have seen -you, sir. - -The meeting will adjourn. - -(Whereupon, at 5:10 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Transcriber's Notes: - - -Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant -preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. - -Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be -due to mispronunciations were not changed. - -Some simple typographical errors were corrected. - -Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. - -Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. - -Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected. - -Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of -conversation?") retained. - -Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. - -Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. - -Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be -periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at -the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at -the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so -faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and -corrected, but some almost certainly remain. - -The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be -available at Project Gutenberg. - -Page 21: "intransit to the FBI" perhaps should be "in transit". - -Page 21: "Mr. Dulles. Is is likely" should be "Is it likely". - -Page 36: "With you permission" should be "your". - -Page 48: "Frankly, I don't know what there conclusion was" should be -"their". - -Page 68: "protrusion" was misprinted as "protrustion"; corrected here. - -Page 79: "this cotton of this cotton" should be "or". - -Page 107: "Several sutures of chromic gut where used" probably should -be "were used". - -Page 138: "alignement" was printed that way. - -Page 139: "alinement" was printed that way. - -Page 159: "we had a plane to fall" was printed that way. - -Page 279: "so help you God" was misprinted as "held"; corrected here. - -Page 320: "We would has asked them" was printed that way. - -Pages 394 and 395: "Hideel" and "Hidell" both used. - -Page 397: "October 13 1958" was printed without a comma after "13". - -Page 439: "Mr. Quigley. I show you an envelope" was printed as though -Mr. Quigley was the speaker, but in context, this must have been spoken -by Mr. Stern. - -Page 467: "harassing his wife in anyway?" probably should be "any way". - - - - - - - - -End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (4 of 26): Hearings -Vol. IV (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V4 *** - -***** This file should be named 44004.txt or 44004.zip ***** -This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: - http://www.gutenberg.org/4/4/0/0/44004/ - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. 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